Podcast appearances and mentions of steve well

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with serial entrepreneur Steve Reynolds for his perspectives on innovation in corporate travel tech. As CSO of Embers Inc., Steve shares his journey developing TripBam, an early pioneer utilizing algorithms and robotics to optimize hotel rates. He explains TripBam's strategic transformation from consumer to enterprise software, strengthening the company and positioning it for seamless integration under Embers. Steve offers valuable lessons on championing passion within high-performing teams. The importance of actively engaging customers and development staff to creativity solve problems is emphasized. We discuss the challenges of maintaining innovation at scale versus smaller startups. Steve's experiences navigating acquisitions and a turbulent industry offer cautionary advice. A theme emerges—embracing flexibility positions leaders to overcome challenges and achieve lasting impact. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I spoke with Steve Reynolds, Chief Strategy Officer at Emburse Inc., about his journey in corporate travel technology and entrepreneurship. Steve discussed the origins and evolution of TripBam, a platform he founded that uses algorithms and robotics for hotel rate monitoring, which eventually pivoted from a consumer-focused to a B2B model. Steve shared insights on navigating the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the strategic decisions that helped TripBam emerge stronger, including cost optimizations and product enhancements. We explored the importance of fostering a passionate and innovative team, highlighting the value of listening to customers and involving development teams directly in problem-solving. Steve explained the critical difference between passionate programmers and those who are merely formally trained, and how assembling a team that shares the company's vision and offering equity can drive success. The episode delved into strategies for managing company growth and financial stability, such as quick decision-making in right-sizing staff and optimizing operational costs through cloud environments. We discussed the benefits of subscription-based pricing models over transaction-based ones, particularly during economic downturns, and how this approach helped maintain cash flow during the pandemic. Steve reflected on the evolution of workplace environments and leadership styles, noting the shift from rigid, traditional settings to more flexible, results-oriented cultures. We talked about the challenges of maintaining innovation in large companies, contrasting startup environments with big company mindsets, and the importance of hiring the right people for each setting. Finally, Steve shared his thoughts on the future of the travel industry and the innovative approaches that have set new standards in modern practices. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Emburse GUESTS Steve ReynoldsAbout Steve TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Steve Reynolds, chief Strategy Officer for Emburse Inc. Steve has built his career in corporate travel technology and in starting various companies over the four-decade career. Steve looks for opportunities to be disruptive. Steve, thanks for coming on the podcast. It's a pleasure to meet you and appreciate you taking the time. Steve: You bet Chris Glad to be here. Chris: So you know there's a lot that I'd love to get into with you. I know that you know currently you're with a company called M-Burst Travel, but that you started a company before that called TripBam. Tell us a little bit about, I guess, those companies and what they do. What is the business they're known for? Steve: Okay, and just to back up a little bit further, I guess what you could call a serial entrepreneur. Tripbam was my third or fourth venture kind of lost count, but I've been in the corporate travel tech space for 40 some odd years. And TripBam when we started 10 years ago, we recognized that hotel rates change a lot more often than people actually realize. If you were to create some robotics that went out and grabbed the rate at a particular hotel for a certain date in the future, you'd see that rate changes just about every hour and what we found is if you just keep watching it, eventually it's going to drop, especially as you get closer to check-in. So we created some algorithms, robotics, whatever you want to call it that said okay, I've got a rate of $2.99 at the Grand Hyatt in New York. I'm arriving on the first and departing on the third. I want you to just let me know when it drops and if it does, I want you to rebook it for me If everything is the same room, same bed, same cancel policy, blah, blah, blah. So that's what we did. We originally invented it for the consumer market. We put out a website and we got mentions in the Wall Street Journal and USA Today and so on. But sort of my corporate travel buddies called up and said, hey, Steve, we really need you to apply this to corporate travel. And they started writing some pretty significant checks. We followed the money, we pivoted and went all B2B at that point. And so the company grew 40% year over year for the first six years, cashflow positive within just a couple of months. I mean it was great. It was great. And then COVID came along and kind of took our knees out from under us for a bit. Chris: COVID kind of wiped out the fundamental business model for at least a little bit. Steve: At least for a little bit. But fortunately a lot of our customers were paying us subscription fees rather than transaction fees, so we were to stay afloat. We got through COVID and we actually came out on the backside of COVID in a much stronger position, both financially and you name it, because we were able to do a lot of just cost improvements, right-sizing the organization. We kind of got a little bit ahead of our skis, I think, in some areas and created some new products, just all kinds of things, pushed everything out to the cloud and such that dramatically reduced our costs and just were firing all cylinders. Chris: And then we worked out a deal with Emburse in July last year to buy the company. Okay, how does I guess what TripBand does fit within the Emburse excuse me, overall, maybe suite of products or company strategy. Steve: Yeah. So Emburse provides travel and expense to the largest of companies, to the smallest of companies, and what I mean by that? Everybody. When you go, you have kind of a booking tool to start with. Most folks are familiar with Concur. We have our own. The reservation gets created. It then needs to be watched, monitored, audited, improved upon. That's kind of where we fit in. So before the money is spent we actually see if we can actually do better than what the traveler did on their own. Travelers are not going to check the hotel rate every day. They're not going to check their airfare every hour. They're not potentially going to book the preferred property within a particular city. We fix all that before the money's actually spent. We then push all that to mobile. So you've got a companion app in your pocket where the traveler gets a ton of destination content specific to that company. So I'm going to New York, I'm staying at headquarters, what hotel should I stay in? I need to go take a client to dinner, what restaurants do you recommend? All kinds of other stuff, including safety and security perspective and so on. Then the data is all captured and fed into an expense report so that your expense report if the traveler is compliant. It's kind of pre-created and pre-approved, so the traveler in a lot of cases doesn't have to do anything and if they're compliant all the way throughout, they could actually kind of be paid as soon as their plane hits the ground. Then it all feeds into reporting and analytics so that we can improve your travel program, identify additional savings opportunities, find some fraud issues, detect all kinds of other stuff that might be a problem. We also offer a card product if you don't have one, and that's kind of the travel plus expense ecosystem that we provide. Chris: That's fascinating. I obviously wasn't aware that something like that existed, but I can see how large companies with a lot of employees traveling could see the benefit and realize a lot of savings from those services. Steve: Yeah, when you combine travel with expense, some kind of magic happens in that we have enough data and insight to be able to start pre-filling out that expense report. Otherwise, all we're counting on is card transactions and receipts, and that's really not going to do the trick. But if we can get that card information augmented with the receipt scanning and everything else that we do now, we can really do a nice job of pre-filling out that expense report. So really all you have to do is add mileage, hit, click and you're submitted. Chris: So you mentioned that you've been in this industry for 40 plus years. I'm curious how did you first get started in the corporate travel tech space 40 years ago? Steve: It was just by happenstance, I guess you could say. I was originally started as a programmer for Texas Instruments, got accepted into their executive program, which meant I could go off and get an MBA and then come back to TI, but quickly realized that the consulting firms were paying a lot more. So I ended up with Ernst Winnie, at the time with Ernst Young and my first assignment was with a travel agency in Houston, Texas, called LifeGo Travel, which doesn't exist anymore. The owner of that company hired us to come in and build some technology. It really put him on the map and he got tired of paying the bills and seeing the hourly checks that we were charging. And so he approached and said, hey, you know, do you want to come work for us? And I'm like, well, that never thought about working for a travel agency. That doesn't sound all that exciting. But he said look what if we created a company, We'll spin it off and we'll give you some equity. And I'm like, okay, now you're talking. So we left, we started up a company called Competitive Technologies and all of it was bought by American Express Travel two years later. Chris: Oh, wow. So unquestionably you had a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit going way back then to see an opportunity. Put you in it. Steve: And a lot of it is just kind of, I guess, my personal. I don't do well at big companies. I really struggle because I get so frustrated at just the lack of progress or the lack of innovation or the speed at which things happen, so I tend to sort of find an excuse to hit the exit button, usually within a year or two. Chris: Right. So you said something in that response that I want to talk to you about, and that's innovation. I think that's there's such a common theme, I think, with entrepreneurs about. You know, and innovation can mean so many things. What do you think that you've done, as you've built several companies, as you mentioned, to create or foster and nurture a spirit and environment of innovation? Steve: You know a lot of it is just becoming a really good listener to the buyer, to whoever the customer is. And then when they say things, there are certain kernels that are aspects of what they say that you just go oh, wait a minute, okay, can we go back to that? That sounds important. You know this level of frustration. Why does that frustrate you? And if you have engineering and development in the room when those things are said, oftentimes some real magic starts to happen and we just the creativity, the innovation just comes out naturally as wow, we can solve that problem. That's not that hard, you know, let's go do that. So that's on the B2B side. That's kind of the formula, that conversation. Something falls out as far as a new feature, product, something like that, that we can start working on the B2C side. Chris: Go ahead. Well, it sounds like there's a function there of asking the right questions and really listening. Steve: Well, and just most big companies or companies they try to protect the dev engineering. They're like oh, we're not going to let you talk to customers. You guys sit over here in the back room and we'll come to you with sort of a priority or roadmap of what we think is needed. And I feel like that's just the wrong way to do it. You've got to get the dev and the engineers and the programmers in the room to hear the story, otherwise you get this telephone tag of what actually gets built isn't quite what the customer wants or was even asking for. And for most companies that's really hard. I don't know why, but they just. It's like we can't allow that to happen, but that's just not the way I operate. Chris: Well, I mean, it makes sense that people you're asking to solve the problem probably need to hear what the problem is firsthand, right? Steve: Exactly. And then it's oftentimes the dev guys are like they're coming up with much more creative solutions. If you just hand them a requirement sheet or spec sheet, they're like, oh okay, this is going to take a month. But when they're involved with the client and they actually hear what the true problem is, oftentimes they're like, oh, I can knock this out overnight, I'll have a solution to you by tomorrow. It's just a night and day sort of sense of urgency or sort of the emotion around creating the solution. They're bought in. At that point, when they hear it directly from the client, they can be the hero. Chris: Well, when you think about kind of that and getting the right developers and the right kind of team together, what have you found to be successful as far as what to look for in building the right team and then keeping the team together? Steve: Yeah. So fortunately for me I mean through all of these different companies that I've started I've been able to kind of get the band back together multiple times. A because I, you know, I'm a big believer in sharing the equity. You know, let's get everybody, if not equity, at least options, so that when there is an exit, everybody benefits, and they've all seen that so far today, knock on wood, I haven't had an unsuccessful exit where we've had to, you know, turn out the lights or whatever. My shareholders have all made money, you know, typically around 5x to 10x on their investment, which has been great. So it's easy to get the bad back together. But what I also have found out is there are certain programmers that are passionate about programming and others that are just taught programming, and there's a night and day difference on the result. If they're passionate about it, the results come out quick. I get creative solutions that nobody would think of. They're usually extremely low cost and it's just so much better than if I have someone that's college taught. I'm doing this because it's a paycheck and I took this degree because that's what somebody told me to and I was good enough to get a B in college on all my programming courses, but at the end of the day, if their heart's not in it and they're spending their time, you know, just on the side weekends and nights learning new stuff, they're not going to be very good. So give me one or two of those that are passionate and I'll put them against 10 to 20 of those that are school taught and will kick their ass every time. Chris: So yeah, well again, I think that transcends all industries and disciplines, the key being passion. Right, I think you, as the leader, are the one that has to start with the passion and then find people that share that passion to get to where you're talking about, where there's that flow within the organization. Steve: Yeah, I think development's a little bit different. I mean, you're not going to find anybody super excited about accounting or I don't know the other aspects of it, but with development there's guys that just get so into it. You know they're programming on the side. They get into hackathons, they want to prove that you know they're smarter than the guy next to them and just constantly looking for the next challenge and just coming up with those creative solutions. I don't know of any other discipline that really has that level of it, but there might be. I mean, I could be wrong. Chris: So, just going back and maybe not the first venture where you and the travel agency in Houston started, but maybe I'm just curious to know as you began some of these startups, maybe sharing some of the lessons learned through some of the challenges you found in starting that venture, whether it be raising capital as an example, or any other challenges that may come about, but I think that capital raise can be one in the startup that some entrepreneurs find daunting and maybe can't solve and never get anything off the ground. Steve: Yeah Well, I think, first off, just wait as long as possible to raise capital. You know most of them kind of build an MVP which just kind of barely works and then go out and try to raise money on it. And whenever you go down that path you just end up way undervaluing what you have. And I know people get in certain situations where they just need to have a check, you know, or it's you know, lights out. But if you can wait until you actually have a client actually generating revenue, actually having positive cash flow, whatever, and then you can show someone, look, we just need to add fuel to the fire here. This is not about keeping the lights on, this is about generating growth You're going to have a dramatically better outcome. The other thing I found out is when you take the big check too early, you start making really stupid decisions. You start hiring attorneys that are expensive, you hire a CFO before you need it, you have a head of HR, all kinds of stuff and overhead that's just not necessary and over time it makes you less and less nimble because you're so worried about payroll, you know, and less focused on just delivering a product that has a you know, a bunch of value. Keep your day job, keep working nights and weekends, wait as long as possible. I mean, I always said, look, cash is like oxygen. If you run out you're going to die. So hang on to it with both hands first. I mean beg, borrow and steal from friends and family and whatever to just get stuff. If you need a contract, go out on the web and search for a capolar plate contract. It'll be good enough to get you started. Or find someone that's a buddy, that's a lawyer, that's willing to do some pro bono work in return, maybe for a little bit of equity stuff like that. Just hang on to that cash as much as you can, for as long as you can. Chris: Well, I think there's a lot there that someone can learn from. Obviously, speaking as a chairman of a law firm, I can't endorse legal Zoom for the startup, but I understand your point. We talk to clients a lot about especially know, especially in the startup phase. Maybe you know helping them get going, but you know and being smart about how they spend their money. But make it an investment in getting at least a sound structure and they may not need right the full-blown set of legal documents, but I can promise you I've seen people start on legal Zoom and wish they hadn't, you know, a couple of years later when things were getting a little tight. But I understand your point there. But conserving cash is important to get off the ground. Steve: Yeah, I mean you don't need to come right out of the gate being in an Inc. You know and incorporated in Delaware and pay all the fees, whatever to make that happen. I mean, just start out as a low-cost LLC and then, when you're ready to sort of raise capital and become a real company, you know you use part of that capital to convert at that time. Chris: So you had mentioned earlier, you know just, I guess, going back to kind of trip BAM COVID having, at least initially, a pretty profound impact but then turning it into a positive, and I'm kind of want to take you back to that time and you maybe dig in a little bit deeper. I think it's a beautiful lesson of something where you know a lot of people just throwing up their hands because travel stopped, et cetera, which decimates your business specifically to you. But then you said we actually learned from that and became a better, stronger company because of it. And you've mentioned right-sizing, the organization stuff. But could you share a little more detail and some stories from that our listeners can learn from if and when their business faces something similar? Steve: Yeah, I think, first off, being fairly quick. You know you can always hire people back, you know. But if you keep them on the payroll and you start burning up cash just way too fast or you're starting to trend towards in the red, you just got to pull the trigger. Nobody wants to, nobody likes to do it, but it's really nobody's fault. It's just something as an executive or CEO you have to do, or a founder. So that's one. Second is, as companies grow, you kind of make stupid mistakes along the way. You get kind of inefficient. You don't anticipate the level of growth that might have been reality. So going back and saying, all right, take a step back, let's catch our breath. You know, what should we have done to kind of handle the scale better? And so, for example, just moving everything to a cloud environment, you know, putting it out to bid, switching from one cloud provider to another, whatever it is, you know you can just generate or reduce your costs dramatically. You know, rather quickly, if you just focus the time on it. Everybody gets so white hot, focused on growth and the next client and the revenue they forget to look at the rear view mirror about. You know there was a lot of costs we could have taken out, you know, which could generate even more cash going forward. Advert: Hello friends. This is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations, and business leaders. Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at BoyerMiller. com and thanks for listening to the show. So we pulled the trigger pretty quick. We right-sized the staff. We had a pretty good and, fortunately for us, this is the other. We kind of lucked into this. Our customers, for whatever reason, decided they wanted to pay a subscription fee rather than maybe a percentage of the savings or a transaction fee, to where what they were going to spend would fluctuate month over month. By paying a subscription fee, they could budget it and they were going to get a better return on investment. So we did most of our deals that way and thank God we did, because when COVID and everything went into toilet in April of 2020, we still had cash coming in the door. So we were actually stayed cashflow positive because we kind of right-sized the staff fairly quickly. And then, coming out of COVID, as the revenue started to ramp back up and our sales started to continue, we were just on a much better platform that would scale after it because it was just all right-sized and efficient and whatever, and at the same time we added new products. So we had a two-year kind of all right, just keep the lights on, market will come back around. We added an air reshopping solution. We added a bunch of analytics to audit contracts and to benchmark performance, so that we had a whole bunch more to sell coming out of COVID than going in, and so that caused another year of kind of explosive growth as a result. Chris: That's great. So, yeah, obviously part of that is give some deep thought to how you price what your product right. So that subscription-based versus transaction for you sounds like a very. Maybe it didn't seem as meaningful at the time you made it, but it turned out to be. Steve: You know that's a tough one If the ROI of your product is pretty clear, like reshopping. If you've got a rate of $2.99, I drop it to $ to $250. I've got $49 per night in savings If you pay me a couple of bucks. Okay, here's the ROI. And we could run some pilots and all kinds of stuff to prove that out. So that makes it really simple and we try to hit look, I need a ROI that when they take it to their boss the guy that's doing the budgets, you know, won't cause all kinds of frustration and concern. So four to one is usually the minimum. A lot of our customers, the larger ones, are getting eight to one, 10 to one, you know. So you could say like you've probably underpriced it. But that's okay, you know we'll claw back some of that. You know, over time when it's a product that's the ROI is a bit fuzzier. You just got to somehow convince the client that this is the potential savings. They're going to guesstimate and then from there work backwards to a price which kind of gets you back to that four to one ROI. So if I think I'm going to save you five bucks a transaction, I'm probably going to charge you a dollar to $1.50 is what I'm going to aim for. Again, to get to that four to one kind of savings estimate for Relagate. Again to get to that four to one kind of savings estimate. Chris: So part of that goes, I think, in building that customer base, really focusing on strong relationships. Talk a little bit about that and what you've done, because it sounds like over the course of the various businesses, you've done a good job of creating some very good partnerships and alliances. What are some of the things you think that have helped you foster that and keep those for so many years? Steve: I think one is you know you got to under promise and over deliver. So if they're going to sign up, you know, don't make them look bad or stupid to their boss. The other one is identifying the influencers in the market. So I'm sure every industry has some individuals that are kind of on the bleeding edge, willing to try new things. And if they do and it works, they've got the microphone or the megaphone to tell a whole bunch of others. So fortunately for me, I've been able to identify who those influencers are. I've got a reputation for just delivering as promised. So when they sign up they have confidence and then they tell their peers and a lot of our sales in the large enterprise market are peer-to-peer networking. It's not from email campaigns or other stuff that we do. Chris: The kind of part of that, the old adage of just do what you say you committed to do when you said you committed to do it right. Steve: It's just delivering as promised. Don't sell me a can of goods and all this great wonderful thing. And then when the reality is just not there, you know, don't make them look stupid. You know that's the key one. I mean, these are after 40 years they become. We have some pretty tight relationships with these folks and I want them to keep their job and we want them all promoted and moving on to the next big role, because when that happens they just take us with them and we just keep getting bigger and bigger. Chris: So you mentioned that about kind of keeping this, your words, the band back together. You've been able to do that, hiring some of the right people and incentivizing the right way. Any insights into. You know what people could think about when they're looking at their team one, trying to, I guess, evaluate whether they have the right people and then finding the right ways to incentivize them to kind of keep that core group together. Steve: To me it's if they feel like they're a part of a team and they understand the value they're providing to the customer and they see that customer's appreciation. You know they're in the conversation with the client, you know, and that's easy to do at a small company, because who else are they going to talk to? Right, you got to bring the dev and engineering. But when you start layering and bifurcating and have people you know in engineering back there in the back room, kind of stuff that don't talk to clients, that's when it gets a lot harder. But when you get them into the conversation and that sense of this is my company, this is my reputation. I'm a part of something here, you know, that's growing and doing well and whatever. It's not that hard, it's really not that difficult at all. It's just everybody wants to be appreciated and feel like they're, you know, part of a team. So that's the formula, right, I mean I could throw money at them. But I ask my employees I mean I am not the guy that's writing big checks to hire people right? I'm like look, we're going to pay a reasonable salary. You know this is not, you're not going to be broke, but you know we're in it for the long term game, and so we want to keep the cash in the company so that we don't have to go do another capital raise which is going to dilute all of us, and so your equity just keeps getting smaller, you know, over time, and the guys that actually make the money, or the investors this needs to be a collaborative team effort so they get that. Chris: I think that transparent communications is key right. So they again they understand their role on the team, they understand what the goal of the organization is and how they can help further that. Steve: You know it's always been kind of fire slow, fire quick as well. You know the people, everybody makes hiring mistakes. It happens all the time. And you know when you hire someone within like a couple of days you're like this is not feeling right. You know, don't let it just sit, don't let it be two years later when you actually kind of work them out. You have to kind of pull the trigger fairly quick because it messes up the whole culture of the company. Oftentimes, especially at a small company, it can create some real problems. Chris: Yeah, I mean that may be the most sage advice and, I think, maybe the most consistent that I hear from entrepreneurs and business owners. It's been my own experience too, that that kind of fire, you know, don't be slow to fire when you know you made a mistake and it's the hardest, maybe one of the hardest ones to do because you're dealing with people. I spoke to someone yesterday and they were like hired, someone had some uncertainty and literally what I learned was to trust my gut because on day one that they started in a conversation went oh my God, this is a huge mistake. Tried to play it out, tried to make it work and guess what? It didn't. Steve: Yeah, the thing is I don't believe resumes anymore and I don't believe LinkedIn pages at all, especially when it comes to higher dev and engineering. It's just anybody can put whatever language they want and say they've got a ton of experience. You've got to figure out a way to validate Most of our hires. There's kind of referrals and peer-to-peer sort of networking. If I find someone, I can usually find someone they know, especially in the Dallas market where we are, that's worked with them at a prior company. That sort of thing and do some back-channel checking is what really pays off for us. And we know the rock stars. We know the rock stars. We know the rock stars, but they're not that hard to kind of pick out. It's the ones that are kind of questionable. That you know. You just got to do your homework and don't count on the resume. Chris: That's a really good point. It's a hard thing to do, though, and it may be easier in programmers. But, to you know, I totally agree with resumes, and profiles can be, you know, massaged, but it's sifting through and kind of through the smoke to really get to what's behind the curtain. Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean. And Zoom calls, I mean people hire on Zoom calls or whatever. Like dude, you got to get them in the office face to face, go to lunch, have a couple of face to face interactions before you actually bring this person on board. You know, make them pass a coding test or something. You know something tangible. Don't just look, they're very nice people. You know they all have a. You know look great on a phone call or Zoom call, whatever, but that doesn't cut it. Chris: Yeah, I mean no substitute for personal interaction and seeing how people show up. Right. Steve: Yeah, the other thing is, since we're, you know, on a startup mode where everybody's looking at kind of the potential for equity, I'm like, look, if you're as great as you are, why don't you come on board for a month on a contract basis? Let's see how it works out, you know, and we'll go from there All right, and you really get a feel for someone and how well they're going to. We try it, we like to try it, before we buy. Let's put it that way. That's one way to do it. Chris: just talk about you know specific kind of leadership styles and and how you would describe your leadership style, and maybe how you would describe it today versus maybe 20 years ago as you you were emerging as a leader, and how you think it's changed oh, my god, it's night and day. Steve: so first company way back when. Maybe it comes as a surprise or not, but it was a coat and tie environment. Okay, guys, we've got to put on the ties and whatever. That was just so stupid. Checking office hours and all that crap and tracking vacation time just seems so silly. Now, if you can get the job done, I don't care what you wear, I don't care what you look like, I don't care what you wear, I don't care what you look like, I don't care where you do the work, I don't care if you have to take vacation on a pretty regular basis for whatever reason. I don't care if you're going off and disappearing to watch your kid play soccer, I do not care anymore. Just here's the job. Here's kind of an expectation. You know, as long as I understand, you're trying hard to get it done as quick as possible. We are good. You know, it's kind of a thing. So all that other stuff was just noise. That was just stupid, anyway it's. I mean back when I started in this, I mean programming and development and all that and the whole tech world was fairly new, so nobody knew what they were doing or how to manage these folks and it evolved over time, but fairly quickly. I mean, by company two, ties were gone. By company three, office was gone. I mean I've been virtual for 25 years. Unfortunately, we had offices but we just I think they were a waste of money but we did it for optics more than anything. Chris: Yeah, so it sounds like more kind of a traditional and somewhat of a command and control, starting out to now a little more, much more flexible and providing autonomy as long as people deliver on the expectations that they're communicated with. Steve: Which comes down to you just hire the right people, right, if you can get kind of get that sense for what the kind of folks that are going to do well. So, for example, if I see, if you can get kind of get that sense for what are the kind of folks that are going to do well. So, for example, if I see that you've got you spent 20 years at a really big company, you are not going to do well at a startup. I could guarantee you You're used to other people doing work for you. You know you're just kind of the sit back in your office and sort of you know, tell folks what to do. That ain't going to happen. You need to get your hands dirty. You might have to write code. You got to do PowerPoints, you got to do Word docs all that stuff yourself. Big company folks just tend to lose that ability, let's say, or it's beneath them and that's not going to work. Chris: Yeah, I mean it's almost. Yeah, that's not in my role. Mentality versus everything is in everyone's role. Mentality, right, it's almost. Yeah, that's not in my role. Mentality versus everything is in everyone's role. Mentality right, it's about getting a job done, no matter what it takes. Steve: And I think that drives me crazy at a big company because, you know, unfortunately for others, I tend to poke my nose into others' lanes and I get told a lot Steve, stay in your lane. Nothing bugs me more, you know, than to hear that. But that's the big company way. Chris: So you've gone through a few companies and you're now, I guess, inside of a larger company. Now Are you finding it easy to kind of have that mentality of flexible leadership and innovative environment? Steve: In the new company? Yes, I would have to say no, it's kind of as I expected. You know, with other acquisitions you start. You know, this kind of here's how it happens. However, embers, I believe, is trying hard to carve out a role where I can exist, let's put it that way. So my title right now is Chief Strategy Officer, and it's a bit nebulous, kind of by design. I can sort of make it what I want and as a result of being chief strategy officer, I can get outside of my lane and people can question it. I'm like everybody needs strategy. That's my title, I'm going to get in your lane, kind of stuff you know. So I tend to kind of bounce around to lots of different projects, objectives so on. I kind of help make sure that it's cohesive, you know, across this travel and expense story, you know. But at the same time I don't have a lot of direct reports, which is great. That usually doesn't go too well either. So so far, so good. Chris: Fingers crossed, that's great, yeah, we we kind of covered kind of the challenges of COVID If you think back prior to that, any other challenges along the way with the first two or three companies, everybody, yeah, yeah, I think people some of those are the best lessons we learned or some of the challenges we go through. I'm just curious to know any kind of lessons from a challenge that you could share with the listeners that might help them when they face something similar. Steve: Oh my God. I mean everybody's made mistakes and if they got lucky along the way and if they don't admit that they're lying, I mean some of the bigger ones. 9-11, we had a solution that was processing about 80% of all corporate travel reservations made in the US. 9-11 hit and we went to zero within about 24 hours, so that was kind of a gut check. Fortunately, travel bounced back fairly quickly, but it made us take a step back and realize how nimble we were If something like that were going to happen again. So that's one, and you know, and there's all the kind of day-to-day stuff. I mean there's fraud, there's employee HR issues that happen. You know there's. I'm not going to get into details on that, but you know you just kind of all right, let's deal with this. You know, don't just look the other way and take care of it. I think the latest I mean the big one right now is just, you know, the whole third party hacking and getting into your network and holding you hostage, stuff like that. You know that's made everybody just super anxious and nervous and to the point where companies are kind of shutting down their network so much that individuals can't do the job. You know, which is causing concern and it's what else are you going to do? I mean, if some employee can click on a link and bring down your network, do? Chris: you just turn off email. You're right, it's creating such a challenge. Everybody, all companies, are being attacked every day from all kinds of angles, and it just takes one and but you also? You can't operate out of fear and you can't let it stop you from doing your business. Steve: Well, they say there's two kinds of companies out there. There's those that have been hacked and those that don't know they've been hacked. So just kind of keep that in mind and I think it's fairly true. I think, you know, it's just almost too easy to get into someone's network and poke around and kind of see what's going on these days. Chris: It's so scary, but I thought you were going to say those who have been hacked and those that will be hacked, but I guess already have you, just don't know it. Well, see, I really loved hearing your story. It's a fascinating industry, and one that you don't really hear much about, but you definitely. It sounds like for 40 years you've been crushing it at it, so congratulations to that. Well, thanks for that. Steve: But also the one thing people don't know about corporate travel is that it sits on a backbone of legacy technology that's probably 40 years old. That has not changed. The GDSs are antiquated, the travel agency systems are antiquated. It's not that hard to come up with something innovative and new in this environment. So I just got lucky to where I got into it and I'm like this thing is so bad. I mean anything you do is going to be innovative. And so we just started coming up with new stuff solving clients' problems and it just kept evolving from there. Like this thing is so bad. I mean anything you do is going to be innovative. And so we just started coming up with new stuff solving clients' problems, and it just kept evolving from there. Chris: Yeah, that's really. You know so many entrepreneurs I've talked to. It's what you just said solving the customer or client's problem. Because what I said earlier, it goes back to asking the questions and listening and then trying to solve that problem. Steve: So many great ideas that come from that across so many industries. Yeah, and just to set up a little process to where you talk with your customers on a regular basis or a group of clients or people you trust and it just happens naturally, it's really not that difficult. Chris: Well, let's turn to a little bit on the lighter side before we wrap this up. I always like to ask people like yourself what was your first job? Steve: oh, my first job, let's see. Uh, I worked at a pet store at junior high. Well, actually first job was mowing yards, right? So everybody every kid did that just to get my allowance money. Then I worked at a pet store in junior high for a short period but fairly quickly realized waiting tables made a lot more money. So I told a guy I was 18, when actually I was 16, and they never really checked. They hired me as a waiter. I was actually kind of a part-time bartender, so I was serving liquor in Houston the strawberry patch I'll probably get them in trouble back when I was 16 years old and just made a ton of money as a, you know, a high schooler. So that was kind of the first. And then, you know, got into computers and writing code at a very early age. I was part of a program at Shell where they gave us mainframe time to go in and kind of play around and then went off to Baylor for computer science and then went to TI and then went to A&M for grad school. Very good, very good. Chris: So okay. So, being a native Texan, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Steve: That is not a fair question, because both are pretty dang awesome, but, being in Texas, I think we've got some of the best barbecue on the planet. So Pecan Lodge here in Dallas is, I think, kind of the best, and there's a lot of Tex-Mex, though that's really good as well, yeah, I agree on all points. Chris: I haven't heard of Pecan Lodge before, so I'll have to check that one out. Steve: Yeah, it's in Deep Ellum, so next time you fly in, go in out of Love Field, and it's not too far, it's a 10-minute drive from there. Chris: Deal Noted. And then last thing is you know you've made early in the career, probably never did this and maybe have done since. But if you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Steve: I actually got a 30 day sabbatical. So a guy hired me or not hired me, but when he brought me on board to run a company he said hey, you know, I threw in there. Just, I read it in a magazine that it was the hot thing for techies to ask for, so I threw it in there and they accepted it. I guess they thought I'd never make it to my five-year anniversary. Anyway, I did and I took the kids and family, went all the way throughout through Europe. So we went to Italy, paris, france, austria, switzerland, whatever you know, just really unplugged for that 30 days. Actually it was a 90 day sabbatical. That's what I took. Wow, so I got a little bit more time. Yeah, it was great, it was great. So if that were to happen today, I'd probably look to do something similar, but nowadays if I want to take 90 days, I probably could just got to ask for it. Chris: Very good, very good. Well, steve, thanks again for taking the time to come on and love hearing your story and all the innovation you brought to the travel industry. Steve: All right. Well, thanks for having me, chris, I really enjoyed it. Good conversation. Chris: Thanks, well, we'll talk soon. Steve: Okay, you bet. Special Guest: Steve Reynolds.

Podcast: Emerson Automation Experts (LS 23 · TOP 10% what is this?)Episode: Building Cybersecurity Robustness in Pipeline Operations PodcastPub date: 2024-07-25Manufacturers and producers across all industries know the challenges in keeping their operations cyber-secure. Industries such as pipeline transportation and electrical & gas distribution networks face additional challenges in the wide geographic spread of their operations and the need for reliance on public communications networks. In this podcast, I'm joined by Emerson cybersecurity expert Steve Hill to discuss these additional challenges and ways the companies in these industries, suppliers, and federal regulators are collaborating to develop and implement best practices for strong cyber resiliency. Give the podcast a listen and visit the SCADA Solutions & Software for Energy Logistics on Emerson.com and the AspenTech Digital Grid Management page for methods and solutions to improve your cybersecurity defenses and ongoing programs. Transcript Jim: Hi, everyone. This is Jim Cahill with another “Emerson Automation Experts” podcast. Pipelines cover a wide geographic area and require continuous monitoring for safe, efficient, and reliable operations. Today, I’m joined by Steve Hill to discuss the challenges pipeline operators face in keeping their pipeline networks cybersecure. Welcome to the podcast, Steve. Steve: Thanks, Jim. Pleasure to be here. Jim: Well, it’s great to have you. I guess, let’s get started by asking you to share your background and path to your current role here with us at Emerson. Steve: Thanks, yeah. I’ve been in the automation and SCADA industry for about 40 years, started on the hardware design and communications that then moved over to software. And it’s nearly 20 years I’ve been with Emerson. I joined as part of the Bristol Babcock acquisition. My main focus now is working in wide-area SCADA as the director of SCADA Solutions for Emerson, and most of that’s working in the oil and gas industry, working with Emerson sales and the engineering teams and our customers as they design systems and products for the industry. And also, alongside that, for the last few years, I’ve been collaborating with CISA. That’s the U.S. government Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency as part of the Joint Cyber Defense Collaborative. Jim: Okay. That’s a nice, varied background. That’s really good for our discussion. So, what exactly do you mean by wide-area SCADA? Steve: That’s a great question. There’s a SCADA system where the software is monitoring equipment across a very wide area. It might be a very large geographic area, like a pipeline or gas, or water distribution network, or perhaps a well field. I mean, some of the systems, for example, I was speaking to a customer last week who is monitoring an entire pipeline across Peru, and yet, their control centers are actually in Mexico. So, to do that kind of thing, the equipment is usually connected via public networks. You know, private networks don’t extend that far, and even the control centers may be widely distributed. And as part of that, compared to in-plant control, there’s an assumption that your communications are clearly not gonna be 100% perfect. You’re gonna lose communications either momentarily, like with cellular networks, and when, for example, like we’ve got in Texas this week, with natural events like hurricanes can cut communications for hours. But because these systems are all critical infrastructure, such as pipelines or electrical distribution, the actual operations, the process, must never be interrupted. Today, we’re talking about cybersecurity, and that same sensitivity is why these systems are now the target to some of the most sophisticated cyberattacks. Jim: Okay, that gives a picture of the breadth of these types of SCADA systems, and you had mentioned you’d work with CISA, the cybersecurity infrastructure defense agency, and the Joint Cyber Defense Collaborative, which I’ll just call JCDC for short. Can you give some more examples on that work? Steve: Yeah. Really, I could give you a bit of background. Probably many of our listeners know that there’s been several successful cyberattacks against critical infrastructure over the last few years. Probably the most famous in the pipeline industry was an attack that’s referred to as the Colonial Pipeline attack. That was actually a criminal ransomware attack that resulted in gasoline and jet fuel shortage across the Eastern U.S. for several days, and that was criminals basically trying to get money. And it was almost a random attack, it wasn’t targeted. However, there have been actual state-sponsored attacks, and probably the one that was most successful was prior to the Russian military attack against Ukraine. They actually instituted several successful cyberattacks against the Ukrainian power grid. And very concerning is, in recent months, the U.S. infrastructure, including pipelines, have been successfully infiltrated by a group that are called Volt Typhoon, who are thought to be from the People’s Republic of China. So JCDC and CISA are working hard to really counter and protect against these threats. Jim: Wow. Well, that’s clearly a huge concern. What is the JCDC doing to address these challenges? Steve: Well, in 2023, so last year, JCDC facilitated the development of something called the Pipeline Reference Architecture. Basically, Emerson, alongside other industry vendors and also pipeline operators, participated in the development of this Pipeline Reference Architecture, which I’ll refer to as the PRA. It’s a fairly short document that outlines the design and operating principles for SCADA systems in the pipeline industry. And one thing the government is keen to point out, it’s not a regulatory document, but it does set out the best principles and is intended as guidance for the industry. Really, they want to work with the industry to come up with best practices. Jim: Well, it sounds like this PRA is another set of standards to address cybersecurity. Why is another document needed in the industry where a bunch of standards exist now? Steve: Yeah, that’s a question I and other members get asked quite a lot. The main reason is that wide-area SCADA represents a very different set of challenges to traditional SCADA, which we refer to as inside the wire. So for example, a refinery or a manufacturing plant, everything is in one location. But as I mentioned before, wide-area SCADA has got a very wide displacement, physically. It also actually has a lot of remote field workers. There may be folks working on that system hundreds of miles from base, and you’re also using communications networks that are not even owned or operated by the owners of the pipeline. Though this PRA is really intended for the pipeline industry, clearly, it’s applicable to almost any wide-area SCADA, that’s water or electrical industry as well. Jim: Okay, that makes sense. So those are definitely challenges that don’t exist for more automation systems, as you say, inside the wire. Tell us more about how the PRA addresses these. Steve: Well, the big thing is segmentation, basically, taking the network and splitting it into different levels that represent different areas of the operation. For example, the internet would be what’s referred to as level zero, and moving all the way down to the bottom of the network, that’s level nine. And the levels in between that represent different levels of trust. Now, those who are familiar with cybersecurity and SCADA are probably familiar with something that is called the Purdue model, which I think first came out in the late 1980s, and that also splits up SCADA and control networks and actually business networks into different levels. However, when that came out, the internet was in its infancy. No one would ever have used the internet or even really public IP networks for their connectivity. So it doesn’t really take into account many of the things we take for granted today in these systems. So the PRA is intended to expand and take into account the reality that, for example, some of this critical data will actually be transiting across a public network, right? And in order to achieve that with this segmentation, we’re using a concept called Defense in Depth, right? And as you go down the different levels of the network, the assumption is you can trust each item on that network better. So, for example, on the internet, you don’t trust anything, but when you get down, let’s say, to the communications between an RTU [remote terminal unit] and a gas chromatograph on a local serial link, you might completely trust that. Now, it’s interesting, although that’s part of the PRA model, that does actually conflict with a security concept called Zero Trust, which is something that Emerson has really based our products on. But both zero trust and defense in depth are valid. Jim: Now, you had mentioned a couple of concepts I’d like to explore a little bit more in there, and let’s start with zero trust. Can you explain that concept to us? Steve: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Zero trust is a concept where any piece of equipment or software should trust nothing. Don’t trust anything else on the network, don’t trust the network to be safe, and it should not rely on anything else for protection. And historically, SCADA was protected, for example, by firewalls. You would use insecure products that were known to not be secure because they were developed perhaps 20 or 30 years ago and hide them behind firewalls, and that’s really how we’ve handled security today. But there’s a realization you can’t do that. So we now need to design products so that they don’t trust anything. But the reality is many of our customers, Emerson’s customers and pipeline operators, have devices that were installed perhaps 30 years ago. That’s the typical lifespan of some RTUs and controllers in this industry. So as a result, when you get down to the lower levels of the network, zero trust doesn’t work. So you do have to have levels of additional protection. So for example, if you had a Modbus link, which is basically insecure almost by design, that should be protected by additional levels of firewalls and so on. But if you’re designing a modern product, it should be designed so it doesn’t rely on anything else. And that’s the concept of zero trust. Jim: Okay, got it. So don’t trust anything. Everything must be proven out. And the other concept you talked about was defense in depth. So, what does that mean? Steve: Well, the phrase is most commonly used where we’re talking about a network with multiple levels in. So when you come from, for example, the internet into your business network, you would have a set of firewalls and what’s called the demilitarized zone. And then when you go from your business network down to your controls network, you’d have another set of firewalls. So it’s multiple levels of protection. However, that same concept should be used actually within products as well. And, in fact, Emerson takes that very seriously with our secure development lifecycle certifications, IEC 62443, and how we design those products. Jim: Well, that’s good. As you get those two and as you put in more modern technology, that it complies and has that cybersecurity built into mind there. So, can you give us an example of how it’s built in? Steve: Yeah. That great one. If I take, for example, the Emerson FB3000 RTU, that’s a flow computer and a controller device that’s designed specifically for the oil and gas industry, especially for pipelines, an obvious concern is that that may be attacked externally to modify the firmware. Now, at the first level, the RTU itself has secure protocols. It uses something called DNP3, which would, in theory, provide access to the device. But then the firmware, when we issue new firmware, we put it on a website so we have protection of the website, we also publish a hash, which is basically a unique key that the customer downloading the firmware can check. It hasn’t been modified by anyone attacking the website. But then, when they actually put it into the RTU, so they’re updating firmware, the RTU will check that that firmware was developed by Emerson and was intended for that device. It does that by certifying certificates on the load. Now, once it’s in the device and it’s running in the field, you might say, “Well, the task is done,” but there’s an additional level of protection. It will continually and on boot, check that firmware, make sure the certificate still matches, it’s not being changed. And if it has been changed, it will actually revert to a known good factory firmware that’s basically embedded in the device. So you can see that there’s really five or six different things all checking and ensuring that firmware in that device was not compromised. So basically, multiple levels within the device, and in addition, there’s multiple levels on the network. So the bad guys have to get through a lot of different levels to damage or compromise the device. And we’re trying to do that with everything we design today. Jim: Yeah. And with modern cryptography and making any change completely will change that hash and everything and make it impossible to slip something in without it being noticed. So that’s really a nice thing. Steve: Yeah. And the fact that even if it detects it, it then goes back to factory firmware, which may be a slightly older version, but your operation will keep running. It will keep controlling, which is a very nice feature. Jim: Yeah, that’s a great example there. I guess, going back to the PRA, what else does it include other than the segmentation that you discussed? Steve: There’s about 10 high-level principles that cover aspects of the design and operation of the SCADA system. And for each of these, there’s various examples and guidance on how to actually follow the principle in a real-world system. So, for example, there was a whole section on how to manage third-party devices in the contractors, because on a pipeline system, you’re almost certainly gonna have, for example, engineers from Emerson coming in from third parties. So it gives examples on the real-world aspects of operating the system. Jim: Are there other examples from it you can share? Steve: Yeah. One important one is when you’re designing the system, you should identify and document all of the different data flows that occur. And that’s, when I say data flow, communications or conversation between different pieces of equipment. So, for example, this RTU may communicate with that SCADA platform on this particular machine and may communicate with a measurement system on another machine, document all of those data flows, and then deny all other data flows by default. Then, after the system is running, continually monitor it passively. And if you see an additional communication, say, between two pieces of equipment that normally never communicated or didn’t communicate on a particular IP socket, flag that immediately, because it may be something that’s going on that was unexpected. It certainly was outside the original design of the system. Jim: This has been very educational. Thank you so much, Steve. Where can our listeners go to learn more? Steve: Well, really a couple of places. If you go to the CISA blog, which is at www.cisa.gov/news-events, there’s details there. The actual PRA was published on March the 26th of this year. And also, if you want to discover more about Emerson’s involvement in wide-area SCADA and the cybersecurity associated with it, if you go to Emerson.com/SCADAforEnergy, you’ll find some information there. Jim: Okay, great. And I’ll add some links to that and to some of the other things we discussed in the transcript. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Steve. Steve: Not a problem. It’s a pleasure. -End of transcript-The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Emerson Team, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

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Steve Brobeck served as the executive director of the Consumer Federation of America from 1980 to mid 2018. Steve now holds the position of senior fellow where he has researched real estate issues since the 1990s.Victoria Ray Henderson is the owner and broker of HomeBuyer Brokerage in the Washington D.C. area. Victoria is the producer and host of the podcast, Listen Up Home Buyers! with the National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents Victoria: Hello and welcome to the podcast, Listen Up Home Buyers. I'm Victoria Ray Henderson, and today's guest is Steve Brobeck. Mr. Brobeck served as the Executive Director of the Consumer Federation of America from 1980 to mid-2018, and he now holds the position of Senior Fellow, where he has researched real estate issues since the 1990s. Steve, welcome to Listen Up Home Buyers.Steve:  It's great to join you, Vic.Victoria:  Yeah, thank you. So we have so many things that we could talk about and that we have talked…But the one thing I'd love to talk about today is the Real Estate Agent Commissions, and specifically that recent verdict by the Federal Jury in Missouri, which ruled that the National Association of Realtors and several brokerages had conspired to fix prices by setting a standard where seller pays the listing agent a commission. And that is split with the buyer's agent. And that decision found the defendants liable for $1.8 billion in damages. And of course, this verdict is just sweeping through the country, could dramatically change the real estate industry. So, I'll start with what are your thoughts on the verdict?Steve:  Well I'm not surprised at all; the jury hardly deliberated at all. When they went into that jury room, they had made up their mind. They spent a couple of hours deciding on the damages. Yes, they decided on 1.8 billion, but in fact, with the trouble damages, the cost to the industry could be over $5 billion. And that is just essentially in the State of Missouri, if you project it out to the whole country, you're looking at awards that would bankrupt the industry two or three times over. But that is not what the industry eventually is going to have to pay.Victoria:  Yeah. When you heard about this verdict, what did you hope would come from it?Steve:  Well, essentially, prices have been set by the industry for 80 to 90 years. And what we'd like to see, and what we believe in at CFA is price competition. And we believe that if there were effective price competition, you would see a much more diverse marketplace. The commissions on average would come down. We predicted 3 to 4%, but just as importantly, there would be different rates for different agents. Those that are really good at what they do, have a lot of experience would be able to charge more than those who just received their license. I just in fact, received a sales license in DC, and I do not deserve 3%, you know, for facilitating a sale.Victoria:  Congratulations. And you're always welcome to join my brokerage if you…We offer a great training program. But the reason that I bring that point up is because you mentioned that 3%, or whatever the commission would be. And you know that you as a newbie; newbies never make their full commission, they're always either working on the team, under the tutelage of, you know, somebody and they should be supervised and should be getting some training.Steve:  Well, the thing is, yes, maybe they're only receiving one and a half percent. Two reports on this whole problem of training. It's very easy in almost every state for someone to get a real estate license. Yet, this is actually…Practicing brokerage is complicated or it should be complicated and demands a lot of skill and knowledge. And unfortunately, one of our reports documented how incompetent so many agents are. They're often bailed out either by their broker or in many cases they're bailed out by the agent for the other party in the sale. That's just not the way an industry should function. You have to go back historically. Back in the 1920s, even earlier, the industry tried to set prices and force all members of the industry to charge the same price. The Department of Justice in the 1940s sued them about that, and they retreated and they made those price schedules voluntary. The Department of Justice sued them again, and they backtracked again. Then they engaged the industry in widespread collusion. Discounters have tried to offer lower rates and they failed. What the litigation tries to do, and what the jury clearly understood the industry is trying to do is, or should do, is to completely separate the listing agent and the buyer agent commissions. And if that's done, there actually is a chance for there to be real price competition, which by the way we believe would help the most confident agents. Right now, there's a glut of agents. Our current research shows that nearly half of all agents sold no or one property in the last year, and that essentially then puts huge pressure on the successful agents to continue and maintain the 5 to 6% rates.Victoria:  I often find, and the reason that many of these newbies don't have sales is because they're working as secretarial duties. They're on teams where they're following people around, and so they won't have a lot of sales. Now, I'm not arguing for…You know, I agree with you there are a lot of agents, and too many, but so many of them are used as support staff. So, I think, you know…Steve:  That's right. But remember, their aspiration is to be an agent; to sell property and collect commissions. And when they can, yes, some of them, and we've actually documented in the study that we're going to release early next year, but they end up working as admin staff to successful brokers. That's true.Victoria:  Yeah. Just in the beginning of the month, The Association of Independent Mortgage Experts, they release this open letter, and they're really concerned about the decoupling of the commissions. And the main reason is, you and I have discussed this before about putting additional finances onto the buyer, and specifically they're talking about vets; veterans, and first time home buyers, and they're saying that they could be adversely affected. VA guidelines, they prevent people from being able to finance a buyer's agent. So what we would end up doing in that situation, if it was decoupled, is asking the seller for a credit to pay the cooperative commission or the commission for the buyer's agent. And then there's the issue of the appraisal. What happens if to the appraisal when, you know, if the mortgage industry did end up being able to do this, which I don't think that they're going to agree to, the home value would then be impacted. So what are your thoughts on that?Steve:  If the industry decided that they wanted to remove those barriers, and I've talked to many people in the industry about this, it could get fixed and it could get fixed without even going to Congress. If, in fact, the real estate industry, and I think the mortgage industry and the consumer groups and housing groups would join them as well and go to the regulators and said, look, you've got to tweak these regulations to allow essentially a price competitive market to take place lowering the costs for buyers and sellers that would occur. Vic, I have talked to hundreds of realtors over the last 30 years, all of whom I consider to be professionals; they're the full-timers with experience. And quite a few of them complain that the industry will never be a profession until you have professional standards, which would greatly reduce the number of agents and give exclusive buyers like yourself a better opportunity to recruit clients.Victoria:  I agree with you that real estate standards need to be higher. And I will say that the National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents, are specific real estate brokers and agents who are consumer oriented with a focus only working with buyers. What is your opinion of exclusive buyer brokerage in general?Steve:  Well, I'm glad you asked me that question because I am a strong believer in exclusive buyer brokerage. What the exclusive buyer brokers recognize, and I understood this when I first started to study the industry back in the nineties, is they recognize there's a fundamental conflict of interest in the industry. You basically cannot, without exposing that conflict of interest, list properties and sell properties. So you list properties and then you have a buyer. Now, who's your obligation to, is it to the, the sellers whose properties you've listed to show them the properties first? If not, then you are actually violating your fiduciary duty to the buyer. And if, in fact, you just honor that fiduciary ability and you ignore all of your listings and look for the property that would best suit the buyer, you're then violating your fiduciary responsibilities to the seller. Exclusive buyer brokerage has recognized that conflict of interest. And so people like yourself  who said, look, we can't really represent both, so we're just going to represent buyers. And I very much hope that in the future, exclusive buyer brokerage will stabilize and grow, and that buyers end up routinely using exclusive buyer brokers. That's my hope.Victoria:  Yeah, and I appreciate that. With the decoupling of commissions, I am really worried about a couple of people that I'm thinking of that I helped this year. She was scraping money together, borrowing money from parents, and pulling it together. And I got, you know, a condo for her under list price with a 3% seller subsidy to help with closing costs. And I was overjoyed, you know, I was just so elated to be able to do this. This woman would not have been able to pay my co-op, my commission out of pocket. My concern is that, you know, that the unintended consequences of decoupling the commissions could have ramifications that could impact the industry for decades.Steve:  I think that to preserve exclusive buyer brokerage and to rationalize the market, you're going to have to allow the buyers to finance the buyer agent commission. But what people are talking about right now, and you actually alluded to it ear early in our discussion, is a concession by the seller. And I think that that's what we're going to see as a transitional stage. And that eventually will lead to the mortgage financing of the commission. But that's the way to basically ease this transition.Victoria:  How is what you're suggesting different from what's already in play? How is it that in this whole scenario the person who, or the real estate agent, and in my case, the exclusive buyer broker who is essentially doing, I think it's well understood that the person who represents the buyer is doing a lot of work. How is it that this person has become the bad guy in this whole scenario? Steve:  They're not. Well, they're not the bad guy. I mean, the listing agent is really the one who was discussing the compensation and justifying the 5 to 6%. It's not the buyer agents because we're, with a few exceptions, the buyers and the buyer agents aren't having that conversation. You know, it's true. The system has existed basically for 80 to 90 years, and it functions to the extent that homes get sold and purchase. But the problem is the industry is very inefficient; consumers overpay, or at least quite a few of them, overpay. There's no relationship between agent compensation, or very little relationship between agent compensation and the services that they provide.Victoria:  As an exclusive buyer broker, I want people to be educated. I want buyers to understand this whole process. And I also know that I can speak for the members of Neva in saying that, you know, we advocate for buyers a hundred percent, we could probably be making double what we make if we did listings and if we worked for buyers, and if we did dual agency and designated agency, but we drew a line in the sand and said, we're not functioning that way.Steve:  Well, CFA has recognized that for decades, and we commend exclusive buyer brokers who really are trying to offer good value to consumers without the kind of conflicts of interest that exists throughout the rest of the industry. So, more power to exclusive buyer brokers.Victoria:  Yeah. We appreciate your support. Steve Brobeck, has served as the Executive Director of the Consumer Federation of America from 1980 to mid-2018, and now he holds the position of Senior Fellow at CFA and he's been researching real estate issues since the 1990s. Steve, you know, it's such a pleasure to always talk to you, and I'm inviting you back because we've only scratched the surface in this particular podcast.Steve:  Well, thank you, Vic. Victoria:  Thank you. Listen Up, Home Buyers! The podcast offering advice and tips from true buyer agents. Host and Producer, Victoria Ray Henderson is the owner and broker of HomeBuyer Brokerage in the Washington D.C. area. Victoria is and a member of the National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents.

We are running an end of year survey for our listeners. Let us know any feedback you have for us, what episodes resonated with you the most, and guest requests for 2024! RAG has emerged as one of the key pieces of the AI Engineer stack. Jerry from LlamaIndex called it a “hack”, Bryan from Hex compared it to “a recommendation system from LLMs”, and even LangChain started with it. RAG is crucial in any AI coding workflow. We talked about context quality for code in our Phind episode. Today's guests, Beyang Liu and Steve Yegge from SourceGraph, have been focused on code indexing and retrieval for over 15 years. We locked them in our new studio to record a 1.5 hours masterclass on the history of code search, retrieval interfaces for code, and how they get SOTA 30% completion acceptance rate in their Cody product by being better at the “bin packing problem” of LLM context generation. Google Grok → SourceGraph → CodyWhile at Google in 2008, Steve built Grok, which lives on today as Google Kythe. It allowed engineers to do code parsing and searching across different codebases and programming languages. (You might remember this blog post from Steve's time at Google) Beyang was an intern at Google at the same time, and Grok became the inspiration to start SourceGraph in 2013. The two didn't know eachother personally until Beyang brought Steve out of retirement 9 years later to join him as VP Engineering. Fast forward 10 years, SourceGraph has become to best code search tool out there and raised $223M along the way. Nine months ago, they open sourced SourceGraph Cody, their AI coding assistant. All their code indexing and search infrastructure allows them to get SOTA results by having better RAG than competitors:* Code completions as you type that achieve an industry-best Completion Acceptance Rate (CAR) as high as 30% using a context-enhanced open-source LLM (StarCoder)* Context-aware chat that provides the option of using GPT-4 Turbo, Claude 2, GPT-3.5 Turbo, Mistral 7x8B, or Claude Instant, with more model integrations planned* Doc and unit test generation, along with AI quick fixes for common coding errors* AI-enhanced natural language code search, powered by a hybrid dense/sparse vector search engine There are a few pieces of infrastructure that helped Cody achieve these results:Dense-sparse vector retrieval system For many people, RAG = vector similarity search, but there's a lot more that you can do to get the best possible results. From their release:"Sparse vector search" is a fancy name for keyword search that potentially incorporates LLMs for things like ranking and term expansion (e.g., "k8s" expands to "Kubernetes container orchestration", possibly weighted as in SPLADE): * Dense vector retrieval makes use of embeddings, the internal representation that LLMs use to represent text. Dense vector retrieval provides recall over a broader set of results that may have no exact keyword matches but are still semantically similar. * Sparse vector retrieval is very fast, human-understandable, and yields high recall of results that closely match the user query. * We've found the approaches to be complementary.There's a very good blog post by Pinecone on SPLADE for sparse vector search if you're interested in diving in. If you're building RAG applications in areas that have a lot of industry-specific nomenclature, acronyms, etc, this is a good approach to getting better results.SCIPIn 2016, Microsoft announced the Language Server Protocol (LSP) and the Language Server Index Format (LSIF). This protocol makes it easy for IDEs to get all the context they need from a codebase to get things like file search, references, “go to definition”, etc. SourceGraph developed SCIP, “a better code indexing format than LSIF”:* Simpler and More Efficient Format: SCIP utilizes Protobuf instead of JSON, which is used by LSIF. Protobuf is more space-efficient, simpler, and more suitable for systems programming. * Better Performance and Smaller Index Sizes: SCIP indexers, such as scip-clang, show enhanced performance and reduced index file sizes compared to LSIF indexers (10%-20% smaller)* Easier to Develop and Debug: SCIP's design, centered around human-readable string IDs for symbols, makes it faster and more straightforward to develop new language indexers. Having more efficient indexing is key to more performant RAG on code. Show Notes* Sourcegraph* Cody* Copilot vs Cody* Steve's Stanford seminar on Grok* Steve's blog* Grab* Fireworks* Peter Norvig* Noam Chomsky* Code search* Kelly Norton* Zoekt* v0.devSee also our past episodes on Cursor, Phind, Codeium and Codium as well as the GitHub Copilot keynote at AI Engineer Summit.Timestamps* [00:00:00] Intros & Backgrounds* [00:05:20] How Steve's work on Grok inspired SourceGraph for Beyang* [00:08:10] What's Cody?* [00:11:22] Comparison of coding assistants and the capabilities of Cody* [00:16:00] The importance of context (RAG) in AI coding tools* [00:21:33] The debate between Chomsky and Norvig approaches in AI* [00:30:06] Normsky: the Norvig + Chomsky models collision* [00:36:00] The death of the DSL?* [00:40:00] LSP, Skip, Kythe, BFG, and all that fun stuff* [00:53:00] The SourceGraph internal stack* [00:58:46] Building on open source models* [01:02:00] SourceGraph for engineering managers?* [01:12:00] Lightning RoundTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO-in-Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI. [00:00:16]Swyx: Hey, and today we're christening our new podcast studio in the Newton, and we have Beyang and Steve from Sourcegraph. Welcome. [00:00:25]Beyang: Hey, thanks for having us. [00:00:26]Swyx: So this has been a long time coming. I'm very excited to have you. We also are just celebrating the one year anniversary of ChatGPT yesterday, but also we'll be talking about the GA of Cody later on today. We'll just do a quick intros of both of you. Obviously, people can research you and check the show notes for more. Beyang, you worked in computer vision at Stanford and then you worked at Palantir. I did, yeah. You also interned at Google. [00:00:48]Beyang: I did back in the day where I get to use Steve's system, DevTool. [00:00:53]Swyx: Right. What was it called? [00:00:55]Beyang: It was called Grok. Well, the end user thing was Google Code Search. That's what everyone called it, or just like CS. But the brains of it were really the kind of like Trigram index and then Grok, which provided the reference graph. [00:01:07]Steve: Today it's called Kythe, the open source Google one. It's sort of like Grok v3. [00:01:11]Swyx: On your podcast, which you've had me on, you've interviewed a bunch of other code search developers, including the current developer of Kythe, right? [00:01:19]Beyang: No, we didn't have any Kythe people on, although we would love to if they're up for it. We had Kelly Norton, who built a similar system at Etsy, it's an open source project called Hound. We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph. Yeah. [00:01:45]Swyx: So you teamed up with Quinn over 10 years ago to start Sourcegraph and you were indexing all code on the internet. And now you're in a perfect spot to create a code intelligence startup. Yeah, yeah. [00:01:56]Beyang: I guess the backstory was, I used Google Code Search while I was an intern. And then after I left that internship and worked elsewhere, it was the single dev tool that I missed the most. I felt like my job was just a lot more tedious and much more of a hassle without it. And so when Quinn and I started working together at Palantir, he had also used various code search engines in open source over the years. And it was just a pain point that we both felt, both working on code at Palantir and also working within Palantir's clients, which were a lot of Fortune 500 companies, large financial institutions, folks like that. And if anything, the pains they felt in dealing with large complex code bases made our pain points feel small by comparison. So that was really the impetus for starting Sourcegraph. [00:02:42]Swyx: Yeah, excellent. Steve, you famously worked at Amazon. And you've told many, many stories. I want every single listener of Latent Space to check out Steve's YouTube because he effectively had a podcast that you didn't tell anyone about or something. You just hit record and just went on a few rants. I'm always here for your Stevie rants. And then you moved to Google, where you also had some interesting thoughts on just the overall Google culture versus Amazon. You joined Grab as head of eng for a couple of years. I'm from Singapore, so I have actually personally used a lot of Grab's features. And it was very interesting to see you talk so highly of Grab's engineering and sort of overall prospects. [00:03:21]Steve: Because as a customer, it sucked? [00:03:22]Swyx: Yeah, no, it's just like, being from a smaller country, you never see anyone from our home country being on a global stage or talked about as a startup that people admire or look up to, like on the league that you, with all your legendary experience, would consider equivalent. Yeah. [00:03:41]Steve: Yeah, no, absolutely. They actually, they didn't even know that they were as good as they were, in a sense. They started hiring a bunch of people from Silicon Valley to come in and sort of like fix it. And we came in and we were like, Oh, we could have been a little better operational excellence and stuff. But by and large, they're really sharp. The only thing about Grab is that they get criticized a lot for being too westernized. Oh, by who? By Singaporeans who don't want to work there. [00:04:06]Swyx: Okay. I guess I'm biased because I'm here, but I don't see that as a problem. If anything, they've had their success because they were more westernized than the Sanders Singaporean tech company. [00:04:15]Steve: I mean, they had their success because they are laser focused. They copy to Amazon. I mean, they're executing really, really, really well for a giant. I was on a slack with 2,500 engineers. It was like this giant waterfall that you could dip your toe into. You'd never catch up. Actually, the AI summarizers would have been really helpful there. But yeah, no, I think Grab is successful because they're just out there with their sleeves rolled up, just making it happen. [00:04:43]Swyx: And for those who don't know, it's not just like Uber of Southeast Asia, it's also a super app. PayPal Plus. [00:04:48]Steve: Yeah. [00:04:49]Swyx: In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West. We just don't understand it. [00:04:57]Beyang: Yeah. [00:04:58]Steve: It's just kind of curious. They didn't work in India either. And it was primarily because of bandwidth reasons and smaller phones. [00:05:03]Swyx: That should change now. It should. [00:05:05]Steve: And maybe we'll see a super app here. [00:05:08]Swyx: You retired-ish? I did. You retired-ish on your own video game? Mm-hmm. Any fun stories about that? And that's also where you discovered some need for code search, right? Mm-hmm. [00:05:16]Steve: Sure. A need for a lot of stuff. Better programming languages, better databases. Better everything. I mean, I started in like 95, right? Where there was kind of nothing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:24]Beyang: I just want to say, I remember when you first went to Grab because you wrote that blog post talking about why you were excited about it, about like the expanding Asian market. And our reaction was like, oh, man, how did we miss stealing it with you? [00:05:36]Swyx: Hiring you. [00:05:37]Beyang: Yeah. [00:05:38]Steve: I was like, miss that. [00:05:39]Swyx: Tell that story. So how did this happen? Right? So you were inspired by Grok. [00:05:44]Beyang: I guess the backstory from my point of view is I had used code search and Grok while at Google, but I didn't actually know that it was connected to you, Steve. I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it. And that was very eye opening. I was like, oh, like that guy, like the guy who, you know, writes the extremely thoughtful ranty like blog posts also built that system. And so that's how I knew, you know, you were involved in that. And then, you know, we always wanted to hire you, but never knew quite how to approach you or, you know, get that conversation started. [00:06:34]Steve: Well, we got introduced by Max, right? Yeah. It was temporal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a no brainer. They called me up and I had noticed when Sourcegraph had come out. Of course, when they first came out, I had this dagger of jealousy stabbed through me piercingly, which I remember because I am not a jealous person by any means, ever. But boy, I was like, but I was kind of busy, right? And just one thing led to another. I got sucked back into the ads vortex and whatever. So thank God Sourcegraph actually kind of rescued me. [00:07:05]Swyx: Here's a chance to build DevTools. Yeah. [00:07:08]Steve: That's the best. DevTools are the best. [00:07:10]Swyx: Cool. Well, so that's the overall intro. I guess we can get into Cody. Is there anything else that like people should know about you before we get started? [00:07:18]Steve: I mean, everybody knows I'm a musician. I can juggle five balls. [00:07:24]Swyx: Five is good. Five is good. I've only ever managed three. [00:07:27]Steve: Five is hard. Yeah. And six, a little bit. [00:07:30]Swyx: Wow. [00:07:31]Beyang: That's impressive. [00:07:32]Alessio: So yeah, to jump into Sourcegraph, this has been a company 10 years in the making. And as Sean said, now you're at the right place. Phase two. Now, exactly. You spent 10 years collecting all this code, indexing, making it easy to surface it. Yeah. [00:07:47]Swyx: And also learning how to work with enterprises and having them trust you with their code bases. Yeah. [00:07:52]Alessio: Because initially you were only doing on-prem, right? Like a lot of like VPC deployments. [00:07:55]Beyang: So in the very early days, we're cloud only. But the first major customers we landed were all on-prem, self-hosted. And that was, I think, related to the nature of the problem that we're solving, which becomes just like a critical, unignorable pain point once you're above like 100 devs or so. [00:08:11]Alessio: Yeah. And now Cody is going to be GA by the time this releases. So congrats to your future self for launching this in two weeks. Can you give a quick overview of just what Cody is? I think everybody understands that it's a AI coding agent, but a lot of companies say they have a AI coding agent. So yeah, what does Cody do? How do people interface with it? [00:08:32]Beyang: Yeah. So how is it different from the like several dozen other AI coding agents that exist in the market now? When we thought about building a coding assistant that would do things like code generation and question answering about your code base, I think we came at it from the perspective of, you know, we've spent the past decade building the world's best code understanding engine for human developers, right? So like it's kind of your guide as a human dev if you want to go and dive into a large complex code base. And so our intuition was that a lot of the context that we're providing to human developers would also be useful context for AI developers to consume. And so in terms of the feature set, Cody is very similar to a lot of other assistants. It does inline autocompletion. It does code base aware chat. It does specific commands that automate, you know, tasks that you might rather not want to do like generating unit tests or adding detailed documentation. But we think the core differentiator is really the quality of the context, which is hard to kind of describe succinctly. It's a bit like saying, you know, what's the difference between Google and Alta Vista? There's not like a quick checkbox list of features that you can rattle off, but it really just comes down to all the attention and detail that we've paid to making that context work well and be high quality and fast for human devs. We're now kind of plugging into the AI coding assistant as well. Yeah. [00:09:53]Steve: I mean, just to add my own perspective on to what Beyang just described, RAG is kind of like a consultant that the LLM has available, right, that knows about your code. RAG provides basically a bridge to a lookup system for the LLM, right? Whereas fine tuning would be more like on the job training for somebody. If the LLM is a person, you know, and you send them to a new job and you do on the job training, that's what fine tuning is like, right? So tuned to our specific task. You're always going to need that expert, even if you get the on the job training, because the expert knows your particular code base, your task, right? That expert has to know your code. And there's a chicken and egg problem because, right, you know, we're like, well, I'm going to ask the LLM about my code, but first I have to explain it, right? It's this chicken and egg problem. That's where RAG comes in. And we have the best consultants, right? The best assistant who knows your code. And so when you sit down with Cody, right, what Beyang said earlier about going to Google and using code search and then starting to feel like without it, his job was super tedious. Once you start using these, do you guys use coding assistants? [00:10:53]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:10:54]Steve: I mean, like we're getting to the point very quickly, right? Where you feel like almost like you're programming without the internet, right? Or something, you know, it's like you're programming back in the nineties without the coding assistant. Yeah. Hopefully that helps for people who have like no idea about coding systems, what they are. [00:11:09]Swyx: Yeah. [00:11:10]Alessio: I mean, going back to using them, we had a lot of them on the podcast already. We had Cursor, we have Codium and Codium, very similar names. [00:11:18]Swyx: Yeah. Find, and then of course there's Copilot. [00:11:22]Alessio: You had a Copilot versus Cody blog post, and I think it really shows the context improvement. So you had two examples that stuck with me. One was, what does this application do? And the Copilot answer was like, oh, it uses JavaScript and NPM and this. And it's like, but that's not what it does. You know, that's what it's built with. Versus Cody was like, oh, these are like the major functions. And like, these are the functionalities and things like that. And then the other one was, how do I start this up? And Copilot just said NPM start, even though there was like no start command in the package JSON, but you know, most collapse, right? Most projects use NPM start. So maybe this does too. How do you think about open source models? Because Copilot has their own private thing. And I think you guys use Starcoder, if I remember right. Yeah, that's correct. [00:12:09]Beyang: I think Copilot uses some variant of Codex. They're kind of cagey about it. I don't think they've like officially announced what model they use. [00:12:16]Swyx: And I think they use a range of models based on what you're doing. Yeah. [00:12:19]Beyang: So everyone uses a range of model. Like no one uses the same model for like inline completion versus like chat because the latency requirements for. Oh, okay. Well, there's fill in the middle. There's also like what the model's trained on. So like we actually had completions powered by Claude Instant for a while. And but you had to kind of like prompt hack your way to get it to output just the code and not like, hey, you know, here's the code you asked for, like that sort of text. So like everyone uses a range of models. We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick. And I think that's been to our advantage. Like today, Cody uses Starcoder for inline completions. And with the benefit of the context that we provide, we actually show comparable completion acceptance rate metrics. It's kind of like the standard metric that folks use to evaluate inline completion quality. It's like if I show you a completion, what's the chance that you actually accept the completion versus you reject it? And so we're at par with Copilot, which is at the head of that industry right now. And we've been able to do that with the Starcoder model, which is open source and the benefit of the context fetching stuff that we provide. And of course, a lot of like prompt engineering and other stuff along the way. [00:13:40]Alessio: And Steve, you wrote a post called cheating is all you need about what you're building. And one of the points you made is that everybody's fighting on the same axis, which is better UI and the IDE, maybe like a better chat response. But data modes are kind of the most important thing. And you guys have like a 10 year old mode with all the data you've been collecting. How do you kind of think about what other companies are doing wrong, right? Like, why is nobody doing this in terms of like really focusing on RAG? I feel like you see so many people. Oh, we just got a new model. It's like a bit human eval. And it's like, well, but maybe like that's not what we should really be doing, you know? Like, do you think most people underestimate the importance of like the actual RAG in code? [00:14:21]Steve: I think that people weren't doing it much. It wasn't. It's kind of at the edges of AI. It's not in the center. I know that when ChatGPT launched, so within the last year, I've heard a lot of rumblings from inside of Google, right? Because they're undergoing a huge transformation to try to, you know, of course, get into the new world. And I heard that they told, you know, a bunch of teams to go and train their own models or fine tune their own models, right? [00:14:43]Swyx: Both. [00:14:43]Steve: And, you know, it was a s**t show. Nobody knew how to do it. They launched two coding assistants. One was called Code D with an EY. And then there was, I don't know what happened in that one. And then there's Duet, right? Google loves to compete with themselves, right? They do this all the time. And they had a paper on Duet like from a year ago. And they were doing exactly what Copilot was doing, which was just pulling in the local context, right? But fundamentally, I thought of this because we were talking about the splitting of the [00:15:10]Swyx: models. [00:15:10]Steve: In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better. And that fragmentation of models, actually, we expected to continue and proliferate, right? Because we are fundamentally, we're a recommender engine right now. Yeah, we're recommending code to the LLM. We're saying, may I interest you in this code right here so that you can answer my question? [00:15:34]Swyx: Yeah? [00:15:34]Steve: And being good at recommender engine, I mean, who are the best recommenders, right? There's YouTube and Spotify and, you know, Amazon or whatever, right? Yeah. [00:15:41]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:41]Steve: And they all have many, many, many, many, many models, right? For all fine-tuned for very specific, you know. And that's where we're heading in code, too. Absolutely. [00:15:50]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:50]Alessio: We just did an episode we released on Wednesday, which we said RAG is like Rexis or like LLMs. You're basically just suggesting good content. [00:15:58]Swyx: It's like what? Recommendations. [00:15:59]Beyang: Recommendations. [00:16:00]Alessio: Oh, got it. [00:16:01]Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:02]Swyx: So like the naive implementation of RAG is you embed everything, throw it in a vector database, you embed your query, and then you find the nearest neighbors, and that's your RAG. But actually, you need to rank it. And actually, you need to make sure there's sample diversity and that kind of stuff. And then you're like slowly gradient dissenting yourself towards rediscovering proper Rexis, which has been traditional ML for a long time. But like approaching it from an LLM perspective. Yeah. [00:16:24]Beyang: I almost think of it as like a generalized search problem because it's a lot of the same things. Like you want your layer one to have high recall and get all the potential things that could be relevant. And then there's typically like a layer two re-ranking mechanism that bumps up the precision and tries to get the relevant stuff to the top of the results list. [00:16:43]Swyx: Have you discovered that ranking matters a lot? Oh, yeah. So the context is that I think a lot of research shows that like one, context utilization matters based on model. Like GPT uses the top of the context window, and then apparently Claude uses the bottom better. And it's lossy in the middle. Yeah. So ranking matters. No, it really does. [00:17:01]Beyang: The skill with which models are able to take advantage of context is always going to be dependent on how that factors into the impact on the training loss. [00:17:10]Swyx: Right? [00:17:10]Beyang: So like if you want long context window models to work well, then you have to have a ton of data where it's like, here's like a billion lines of text. And I'm going to ask a question about like something that's like, you know, embedded deeply into it and like, give me the right answer. And unless you have that training set, then of course, you're going to have variability in terms of like where it attends to. And in most kind of like naturally occurring data, the thing that you're talking about right now, the thing I'm asking you about is going to be something that we talked about recently. [00:17:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:17:36]Steve: Did you really just say gradient dissenting yourself? Actually, I love that it's entered the casual lexicon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:44]Swyx: My favorite version of that is, you know, how we have to p-hack papers. So, you know, when you throw humans at the problem, that's called graduate student dissent. That's great. It's really awesome. [00:17:54]Alessio: I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work. So you can ask Cody to make changes on a code block and you can still edit the same file at the same time. [00:18:07]Swyx: Yeah. [00:18:07]Alessio: How do you see that in the future? Like, do you see a lot of Cody's running together at the same time? Like, how do you validate also that they're not messing each other up as they make changes in the code? And maybe what are the limitations today? And what do you think about where the attack is going? [00:18:21]Steve: I want to start with a little history and then I'm going to turn it over to Bian, all right? So we actually had this feature in the very first launch back in June. Dominic wrote it. It was called nonstop Cody. And you could have multiple, basically, LLM requests in parallel modifying your source [00:18:37]Swyx: file. [00:18:37]Steve: And he wrote a bunch of code to handle all of the diffing logic. And you could see the regions of code that the LLM was going to change, right? And he was showing me demos of it. And it just felt like it was just a little before its time, you know? But a bunch of that stuff, that scaffolding was able to be reused for where we're inline [00:18:56]Swyx: sitting today. [00:18:56]Steve: How would you characterize it today? [00:18:58]Beyang: Yeah, so that interface has really evolved from a, like, hey, general purpose, like, request anything inline in the code and have the code update to really, like, targeted features, like, you know, fix the bug that exists at this line or request a very specific [00:19:13]Swyx: change. [00:19:13]Beyang: And the reason for that is, I think, the challenge that we ran into with inline fixes, and we do want to get to the point where you could just fire and forget and have, you know, half a dozen of these running in parallel. But I think we ran into the challenge early on that a lot of people are running into now when they're trying to construct agents, which is the reliability of, you know, working code generation is just not quite there yet in today's language models. And so that kind of constrains you to an interaction where the human is always, like, in the inner loop, like, checking the output of each response. And if you want that to work in a way where you can be asynchronous, you kind of have to constrain it to a domain where today's language models can generate reliable code well enough. So, you know, generating unit tests, that's, like, a well-constrained problem. Or fixing a bug that shows up as, like, a compiler error or a test error, that's a well-constrained problem. But the more general, like, hey, write me this class that does X, Y, and Z using the libraries that I have, that is not quite there yet, even with the benefit of really good context. Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution. And if we're to really define that down, I think it implies a couple things. You have, like, a multi-step process where each step is fully automated. We don't have to have a human in the loop every time. And there's also kind of like an LM call at each stage or nearly every stage in that [00:20:45]Swyx: chain. [00:20:45]Beyang: Based on all the work that we've done, you know, with the inline interactions, with kind of like general Codyfeatures for implementing longer chains of thought, we're actually a little bit more bearish than the average, you know, AI hypefluencer out there on the feasibility of agents with purely kind of like transformer-based models. To your original question, like, the inline interactions with CODI, we actually constrained it to be more targeted, like, you know, fix the current error or make this quick fix. I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base. That's a waste of time. You'd rather just have it write the right thing and then move on with your life or not have to think about it. And that's what we're trying to work towards. [00:21:37]Steve: I mean, yeah, we're not going in the agent direction, right? I mean, I'll believe in agents when somebody shows me one that works. Yeah. Instead, we're working on, you know, sort of solidifying our strength, which is bringing the right context in. So new context sources, ways for you to plug in your own context, ways for you to control or influence the context, you know, the mixing that happens before the request goes out, etc. And there's just so much low-hanging fruit left in that space that, you know, agents seems like a little bit of a boondoggle. [00:22:03]Beyang: Just to dive into that a little bit further, like, I think, you know, at a very high level, what do people mean when they say agents? They really mean, like, greater automation, fully automated, like, the dream is, like, here's an issue, go implement that. And I don't have to think about it as a human. And I think we are working towards that. Like, that is the eventual goal. I think it's specifically the approach of, like, hey, can we have a transformer-based LM alone be the kind of, like, backbone or the orchestrator of these agentic flows? Where we're a little bit more bearish today. [00:22:31]Swyx: You want the human in the loop. [00:22:32]Beyang: I mean, you kind of have to. It's just a reality of the behavior of language models that are purely, like, transformer-based. And I think that's just like a reflection of reality. And I don't think people realize that yet. Because if you look at the way that a lot of other AI tools have implemented context fetching, for instance, like, you see this in the Copilot approach, where if you use, like, the at-workspace thing that supposedly provides, like, code-based level context, it has, like, an agentic approach where you kind of look at how it's behaving. And it feels like they're making multiple requests to the LM being like, what would you do in this case? Would you search for stuff? What sort of files would you gather? Go and read those files. And it's like a multi-hop step, so it takes a long while. It's also non-deterministic. Because any sort of, like, LM invocation, it's like a dice roll. And then at the end of the day, the context it fetches is not that good. Whereas our approach is just like, OK, let's do some code searches that make sense. And then maybe, like, crawl through the reference graph a little bit. That is fast. That doesn't require any sort of LM invocation at all. And we can pull in much better context, you know, very quickly. So it's faster. [00:23:37]Swyx: It's more reliable. [00:23:37]Beyang: It's deterministic. And it yields better context quality. And so that's what we think. We just don't think you should cargo cult or naively go like, you know, agents are the [00:23:46]Swyx: future. [00:23:46]Beyang: Let's just try to, like, implement agents on top of the LM that exists today. I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows. [00:24:00]Swyx: It makes sense. You know, we're very much focused on developer inner loop right now. But you do see things eventually moving towards developer outer loop. Yeah. So would you basically say that they're tackling the agent's problem that you don't want to tackle? [00:24:11]Beyang: No, I would say at a high level, we are after maybe, like, the same high level problem, which is like, hey, I want some code written. I want to develop some software and can automate a system. Go build that software for me. I think the approaches might be different. So I think the analogy in my mind is, I think about, like, the AI chess players. Coding, in some senses, I mean, it's similar and dissimilar to chess. I think one question I ask is, like, do you think producing code is more difficult than playing chess or less difficult than playing chess? More. [00:24:41]Swyx: I think more. [00:24:41]Beyang: Right. And if you look at the best AI chess players, like, yes, you can use an LLM to play chess. Like, people have showed demos where it's like, oh, like, yeah, GPT-4 is actually a pretty decent, like, chess move suggester. Right. But you would never build, like, a best in class chess player off of GPT-4 alone. [00:24:57]Swyx: Right. [00:24:57]Beyang: Like, the way that people design chess players is that you have kind of like a search space and then you have a way to explore that search space efficiently. There's a bunch of search algorithms, essentially. We were doing tree search in various ways. And you can have heuristic functions, which might be powered by an LLM. [00:25:12]Swyx: Right. [00:25:12]Beyang: Like, you might use an LLM to generate proposals in that space that you can efficiently explore. But the backbone is still this kind of more formalized tree search based approach rather than the LLM itself. And so I think my high level intuition is that, like, the way that we get to more reliable multi-step workflows that do things beyond, you know, generate unit test, it's really going to be like a search based approach where you use an LLM as kind of like an advisor or a proposal function, sort of your heuristic function, like the ASTAR search algorithm. But it's probably not going to be the thing that is the backbone, because I guess it's not the right tool for that. Yeah. [00:25:50]Swyx: I can see yourself kind of thinking through this, but not saying the words, the sort of philosophical Peter Norvig type discussion. Maybe you want to sort of introduce that in software. Yeah, definitely. [00:25:59]Beyang: So your listeners are savvy. They're probably familiar with the classic like Chomsky versus Norvig debate. [00:26:04]Swyx: No, actually, I wanted, I was prompting you to introduce that. Oh, got it. [00:26:08]Beyang: So, I mean, if you look at the history of artificial intelligence, right, you know, it goes way back to, I don't know, it's probably as old as modern computers, like 50s, 60s, 70s. People are debating on like, what is the path to producing a sort of like general human level of intelligence? And kind of two schools of thought that emerged. One is the Norvig school of thought, which roughly speaking includes large language models, you know, regression, SVN, basically any model that you kind of like learn from data. And it's like data driven. Most of machine learning would fall under this umbrella. And that school of thought says like, you know, just learn from the data. That's the approach to reaching intelligence. And then the Chomsky approach is more things like compilers and parsers and formal systems. So basically like, let's think very carefully about how to construct a formal, precise system. And that will be the approach to how we build a truly intelligent system. I think Lisp was invented so that you could create like rules-based systems that you would call AI. As a language. Yeah. And for a long time, there was like this debate, like there's certain like AI research labs that were more like, you know, in the Chomsky camp and others that were more in the Norvig camp. It's a debate that rages on today. And I feel like the consensus right now is that, you know, Norvig definitely has the upper hand right now with the advent of LMs and diffusion models and all the other recent progress in machine learning. But the Chomsky-based stuff is still really useful in my view. I mean, it's like parsers, compilers, basically a lot of the stuff that provides really good context. It provides kind of like the knowledge graph backbone that you want to explore with your AI dev tool. Like that will come from kind of like Chomsky-based tools like compilers and parsers. It's a lot of what we've invested in in the past decade at Sourcegraph and what you build with Grok. Basically like these formal systems that construct these very precise knowledge graphs that are great context providers and great kind of guard rails enforcers and kind of like safety checkers for the output of a more kind of like data-driven, fuzzier system that uses like the Norvig-based models. [00:28:03]Steve: Jang was talking about this stuff like it happened in the middle ages. Like, okay, so when I was in college, I was in college learning Lisp and prologue and planning and all the deterministic Chomsky approaches to AI. And I was there when Norvig basically declared it dead. I was there 3,000 years ago when Norvig and Chomsky fought on the volcano. When did he declare it dead? [00:28:26]Swyx: What do you mean he declared it dead? [00:28:27]Steve: It was like late 90s. [00:28:29]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:29]Steve: When I went to Google, Peter Norvig was already there. He had basically like, I forget exactly where. It was some, he's got so many famous short posts, you know, amazing. [00:28:38]Swyx: He had a famous talk, the unreasonable effectiveness of data. Yeah. [00:28:41]Steve: Maybe that was it. But at some point, basically, he basically convinced everybody that deterministic approaches had failed and that heuristic-based, you know, data-driven statistical approaches, stochastic were better. [00:28:52]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:52]Steve: The primary reason I can tell you this, because I was there, was that, was that, well, the steam-powered engine, no. The reason was that the deterministic stuff didn't scale. [00:29:06]Swyx: Yeah. Right. [00:29:06]Steve: They're using prologue, man, constraint systems and stuff like that. Well, that was a long time ago, right? Today, actually, these Chomsky-style systems do scale. And that's, in fact, exactly what Sourcegraph has built. Yeah. And so we have a very unique, I love the framing that Bjong's made, that the marriage of the Chomsky and the Norvig, you know, sort of models, you know, conceptual models, because we, you know, we have both of them and they're both really important. And in fact, there, there's this really interesting, like, kind of overlap between them, right? Where like the AI or our graph or our search engine could potentially provide the right context for any given query, which is, of course, why ranking is important. But what we've really signed ourselves up for is an extraordinary amount of testing. [00:29:45]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:45]Steve: Because in SWIGs, you were saying that, you know, GPT-4 tends to the front of the context window and maybe other LLMs to the back and maybe, maybe the LLM in the middle. [00:29:53]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:53]Steve: And so that means that, you know, if we're actually like, you know, verifying whether we, you know, some change we've made has improved things, we're going to have to test putting it at the beginning of the window and at the end of the window, you know, and maybe make the right decision based on the LLM that you've chosen. Which some of our competitors, that's a problem that they don't have, but we meet you, you know, where you are. Yeah. And we're, just to finish, we're writing tens of thousands. We're generating tests, you know, fill in the middle type tests and things. And then using our graph to basically sort of fine tune Cody's behavior there. [00:30:20]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:21]Beyang: I also want to add, like, I have like an internal pet name for this, like kind of hybrid architecture that I'm trying to make catch on. Maybe I'll just say it here. Just saying it publicly kind of makes it more real. But like, I call the architecture that we've developed the Normsky architecture. [00:30:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:36]Beyang: I mean, it's obviously a portmanteau of Norvig and Chomsky, but the acronym, it stands for non-agentic, rapid, multi-source code intelligence. So non-agentic because... Rolls right off the tongue. And Normsky. But it's non-agentic in the sense that like, we're not trying to like pitch you on kind of like agent hype, right? Like it's the things it does are really just developer tools developers have been using for decades now, like parsers and really good search indexes and things like that. Rapid because we place an emphasis on speed. We don't want to sit there waiting for kind of like multiple LLM requests to return to complete a simple user request. Multi-source because we're thinking broadly about what pieces of information and knowledge are useful context. So obviously starting with things that you can search in your code base, and then you add in the reference graph, which kind of like allows you to crawl outward from those initial results. But then even beyond that, you know, sources of information, like there's a lot of knowledge that's embedded in docs, in PRDs or product specs, in your production logging system, in your chat, in your Slack channel, right? Like there's so much context is embedded there. And when you're a human developer, and you're trying to like be productive in your code base, you're going to go to all these different systems to collect the context that you need to figure out what code you need to write. And I don't think the AI developer will be any different. It will need to pull context from all these different sources. So we're thinking broadly about how to integrate these into Codi. We hope through kind of like an open protocol that like others can extend and implement. And this is something else that should be accessible by December 14th in kind of like a preview stage. But that's really about like broadening this notion of the code graph beyond your Git repository to all the other sources where technical knowledge and valuable context can live. [00:32:21]Steve: Yeah, it becomes an artifact graph, right? It can link into your logs and your wikis and any data source, right? [00:32:27]Alessio: How do you guys think about the importance of, it's almost like data pre-processing in a way, which is bring it all together, tie it together, make it ready. Any thoughts on how to actually make that good? Some of the innovation you guys have made. [00:32:40]Steve: We talk a lot about the context fetching, right? I mean, there's a lot of ways you could answer this question. But, you know, we've spent a lot of time just in this podcast here talking about context fetching. But stuffing the context into the window is, you know, the bin packing problem, right? Because the window is not big enough, and you've got more context than you can fit. You've got a ranker maybe. But what is that context? Is it a function that was returned by an embedding or a graph call or something? Do you need the whole function? Or do you just need, you know, the top part of the function, this expression here, right? You know, so that art, the golf game of trying to, you know, get each piece of context down into its smallest state, possibly even summarized by another model, right, before it even goes to the LLM, becomes this is the game that we're in, yeah? And so, you know, recursive summarization and all the other techniques that you got to use to like stuff stuff into that context window become, you know, critically important. And you have to test them across every configuration of models that you could possibly need. [00:33:32]Beyang: I think data preprocessing is probably the like unsexy, way underappreciated secret to a lot of the cool stuff that people are shipping today. Whether you're doing like RAG or fine tuning or pre-training, like the preprocessing step matters so much because it's basically garbage in, garbage out, right? Like if you're feeding in garbage to the model, then it's going to output garbage. Concretely, you know, for code RAG, if you're not doing some sort of like preprocessing that takes advantage of a parser and is able to like extract the key components of a particular file of code, you know, separate the function signature from the body, from the doc string, what are you even doing? Like that's like table stakes. It opens up so much more possibilities with which you can kind of like tune your system to take advantage of the signals that come from those different parts of the code. Like we've had a tool, you know, since computers were invented that understands the structure of source code to a hundred percent precision. The compiler knows everything there is to know about the code in terms of like structure. Like why would you not want to use that in a system that's trying to generate code, answer questions about code? You shouldn't throw that out the window just because now we have really good, you know, data-driven models that can do other things. [00:34:44]Steve: Yeah. When I called it a data moat, you know, in my cheating post, a lot of people were confused, you know, because data moat sort of sounds like data lake because there's data and water and stuff. I don't know. And so they thought that we were sitting on this giant mountain of data that we had collected, but that's not what our data moat is. It's really a data pre-processing engine that can very quickly and scalably, like basically dissect your entire code base in a very small, fine-grained, you know, semantic unit and then serve it up. Yeah. And so it's really, it's not a data moat. It's a data pre-processing moat, I guess. [00:35:15]Beyang: Yeah. If anything, we're like hypersensitive to customer data privacy requirements. So it's not like we've taken a bunch of private data and like, you know, trained a generally available model. In fact, exactly the opposite. A lot of our customers are choosing Cody over Copilot and other competitors because we have an explicit guarantee that we don't do any of that. And that we've done that from day one. Yeah. I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up. [00:35:52]Alessio: About a year ago, I wrote a post on LLMs for developers. And one of the points I had was maybe the depth of like the DSL. I spent most of my career writing Ruby and I love Ruby. It's so nice to use, but you know, it's not as performant, but it's really easy to read, right? And then you look at other languages, maybe they're faster, but like they're more verbose, you know? And when you think about efficiency of the context window, that actually matters. [00:36:15]Swyx: Yeah. [00:36:15]Alessio: But I haven't really seen a DSL for models, you know? I haven't seen like code being optimized to like be easier to put in a model context. And it seems like your pre-processing is kind of doing that. Do you see in the future, like the way we think about the DSL and APIs and kind of like service interfaces be more focused on being context friendly, where it's like maybe it's harder to read for the human, but like the human is never going to write it anyway. We were talking on the Hacks podcast. There are like some data science things like spin up the spandex, like humans are never going to write again because the models can just do very easily. Yeah, curious to hear your thoughts. [00:36:51]Steve: Well, so DSLs, they involve, you know, writing a grammar and a parser and they're like little languages, right? We do them that way because, you know, we need them to compile and humans need to be able to read them and so on. The LLMs don't need that level of structure. You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything. Maybe it will at some point, right? We've got, you know, tagging of context and things like that that are sort of peeking into DSL territory, right? But your point on do users, you know, do people have to learn DSLs like regular expressions or, you know, pick your favorite, right? XPath. I think you're absolutely right that the LLMs are really, really good at that. And I think you're going to see a lot less of people having to slave away learning these things. They just have to know the broad capabilities and the LLM will take care of the rest. [00:37:42]Swyx: Yeah, I'd agree with that. [00:37:43]Beyang: I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer. And in many cases today, you know, without the benefit of AI cogeneration, like that totally worth it, right? With the benefit of AI cogeneration, I mean, I don't think all DSLs will go away. I think there's still, you know, places where that trade-off is going to be worthwhile. But it's kind of like how much of source code do you think is going to be generated through natural language prompting in the future? Because in a way, like any programming language is just a DSL on top of assembly, right? And so if people can do that, then yeah, like maybe for a large portion of the code [00:38:21]Swyx: that's written, [00:38:21]Beyang: people don't actually have to understand the DSL that is Ruby or Python or basically any other programming language that exists. [00:38:28]Steve: I mean, seriously, do you guys ever write SQL queries now without using a model of some sort? At least a draft. [00:38:34]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:38:36]Steve: And so we have kind of like, you know, past that bridge, right? [00:38:39]Alessio: Yeah, I think like to me, the long-term thing is like, is there ever going to be, you don't actually see the code, you know? It's like, hey, the basic thing is like, hey, I need a function to some two numbers and that's it. I don't need you to generate the code. [00:38:53]Steve: And the following question, do you need the engineer or the paycheck? [00:38:56]Swyx: I mean, right? [00:38:58]Alessio: That's kind of the agent's discussion in a way where like you cannot automate the agents, but like slowly you're getting more of the atomic units of the work kind of like done. I kind of think of it as like, you know, [00:39:09]Beyang: do you need a punch card operator to answer that for you? And so like, I think we're still going to have people in the role of a software engineer, but the portion of time they spend on these kinds of like low-level, tedious tasks versus the higher level, more creative tasks is going to shift. [00:39:23]Steve: No, I haven't used punch cards. [00:39:25]Swyx: Yeah, I've been talking about like, so we kind of made this podcast about the sort of rise of the AI engineer. And like the first step is the AI enhanced engineer. That is that software developer that is no longer doing these routine, boilerplate-y type tasks, because they're just enhanced by tools like yours. So you mentioned OpenCodeGraph. I mean, that is a kind of DSL maybe, and because we're releasing this as you go GA, you hope for other people to take advantage of that? [00:39:52]Beyang: Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints. So I would, you know, comparisons like LSP obviously did this for kind of like standard code intelligence. It's kind of like a lingua franca for providing fine references and codefinition. There's kind of like analogs to that. There might be also analogs to kind of the original OpenAI, kind of like plugins, API. There's all this like context out there that might be useful for an LM-based system to consume. And so at a high level, what we're trying to do is define a common language for context providers to provide context to other tools in the software development lifecycle. Yeah. Do you have any critiques of LSP, by the way, [00:40:42]Swyx: since like this is very much, very close to home? [00:40:45]Steve: One of the authors wrote a really good critique recently. Yeah. I don't think I saw that. Yeah, yeah. LSP could have been better. It just came out a couple of weeks ago. It was a good article. [00:40:54]Beyang: Yeah. I think LSP is great. Like for what it did for the developer ecosystem, it was absolutely fantastic. Like nowadays, like it's much easier now to get code navigation up and running in a bunch of editors by speaking this protocol. I think maybe the interesting question is like looking at the different design decisions comparing LSP basically with Kythe. Because Kythe has more of a... How would you describe it? [00:41:18]Steve: A storage format. [00:41:20]Beyang: I think the critique of LSP from a Kythe point of view would be like with LSP, you don't actually have an actual symbolic model of the code. It's not like LSP models like, hey, this function calls this other function. LSP is all like range-based. Like, hey, your cursor's at line 32, column 1. [00:41:35]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:35]Beyang: And that's the thing you feed into the language server. And then it's like, okay, here's the range that you should jump to if you click on that range. So it kind of is intentionally ignorant of the fact that there's a thing called a reference underneath your cursor, and that's linked to a symbol definition. [00:41:49]Steve: Well, actually, that's the worst example you could have used. You're right. But that's the one thing that it actually did bake in is following references. [00:41:56]Swyx: Sure. [00:41:56]Steve: But it's sort of hardwired. [00:41:58]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:58]Steve: Whereas Kythe attempts to model [00:42:00]Beyang: like all these things explicitly. [00:42:02]Swyx: And so... [00:42:02]Steve: Well, so LSP is a protocol, right? And so Google's internal protocol is gRPC-based. And it's a different approach than LSP. It's basically you make a heavy query to the back end, and you get a lot of data back, and then you render the whole page, you know? So we've looked at LSP, and we think that it's a little long in the tooth, right? I mean, it's a great protocol, lots and lots of support for it. But we need to push into the domain of exposing the intelligence through the protocol. Yeah. [00:42:29]Beyang: And so I would say we've developed a protocol of our own called Skip, which is at a very high level trying to take some of the good ideas from LSP and from Kythe and merge that into a system that in the near term is useful for Sourcegraph, but I think in the long term, we hope will be useful for the ecosystem. Okay, so here's what LSP did well. LSP, by virtue of being like intentionally dumb, dumb in air quotes, because I'm not like ragging on it, allowed language servers developers to kind of like bypass the hard problem of like modeling language semantics precisely. So like if all you want to do is jump to definition, you don't have to come up with like a universally unique naming scheme for each symbol, which is actually quite challenging because you have to think about like, okay, what's the top scope of this name? Is it the source code repository? Is it the package? Does it depend on like what package server you're fetching this from? Like whether it's the public one or the one inside your... Anyways, like naming is hard, right? And by just going from kind of like a location to location based approach, you basically just like throw that out the window. All I care about is jumping definition, just make that work. And you can make that work without having to deal with like all the complex global naming things. The limitation of that approach is that it's harder to build on top of that to build like a true knowledge graph. Like if you actually want a system that says like, okay, here's the web of functions and here's how they reference each other. And I want to incorporate that like semantic model of how the code operates or how the code relates to each other at like a static level. You can't do that with LSP because you have to deal with line ranges. And like concretely the pain point that we found in using LSP for source graph is like in order to do like a find references [00:44:04]Swyx: and then jump definitions, [00:44:04]Beyang: it's like a multi-hop process because like you have to jump to the range and then you have to find the symbol at that range. And it just adds a lot of latency and complexity of these operations where as a human, you're like, well, this thing clearly references this other thing. Why can't you just jump me to that? And I think that's the thing that Kaith does well. But then I think the issue that Kaith has had with adoption is because it is more sophisticated schema, I think. And so there's basically more things that you have to implement to get like a Kaith implementation up and running. I hope I'm not like, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. [00:44:35]Steve: 100%, 100%. Kaith also has a problem, all these systems have the problem, even skip, or at least the way that we implemented the indexers, that they have to integrate with your build system in order to build that knowledge graph, right? Because you have to basically compile the code in a special mode to generate artifacts instead of binaries. And I would say, by the way, earlier I was saying that XREFs were in LSP, but it's actually, I was thinking of LSP plus LSIF. [00:44:58]Swyx: Yeah. That's another. [00:45:01]Steve: Which is actually bad. We can say that it's bad, right? [00:45:04]Steve: It's like skip or Kaith, it's supposed to be sort of a model serialization, you know, for the code graph, but it basically just does what LSP needs, the bare minimum. LSIF is basically if you took LSP [00:45:16]Beyang: and turned that into a serialization format. So like you build an index for language servers to kind of like quickly bootstrap from cold start. But it's a graph model [00:45:23]Steve: with all of the inconvenience of the API without an actual graph. And so, yeah. [00:45:29]Beyang: So like one of the things that we try to do with skip is try to capture the best of both worlds. So like make it easy to write an indexer, make the schema simple, but also model some of the more symbolic characteristics of the code that would allow us to essentially construct this knowledge graph that we can then make useful for both the human developer through SourceGraph and through the AI developer through Cody. [00:45:49]Steve: So anyway, just to finish off the graph comment, we've got a new graph, yeah, that's skip based. We call it BFG internally, right? It's a beautiful something graph. A big friendly graph. [00:46:00]Swyx: A big friendly graph. [00:46:01]Beyang: It's a blazing fast. [00:46:02]Steve: Blazing fast. [00:46:03]Swyx: Blazing fast graph. [00:46:04]Steve: And it is blazing fast, actually. It's really, really interesting. I should probably have to do a blog post about it to walk you through exactly how they're doing it. Oh, please. But it's a very AI-like iterative, you know, experimentation sort of approach. We're building a code graph based on all of our 10 years of knowledge about building code graphs, yeah? But we're building it quickly with zero configuration, and it doesn't have to integrate with your build. And through some magic tricks that we have. And so what just happens when you install the plugin, that it'll be there and indexing your code and providing that knowledge graph in the background without all that build system integration. This is a bit of secret sauce that we haven't really like advertised it very much lately. But I am super excited about it because what they do is they say, all right, you know, let's tackle function parameters today. Cody's not doing a very good job of completing function call arguments or function parameters in the definition, right? Yeah, we generate those thousands of tests, and then we can actually reuse those tests for the AI context as well. So fortunately, things are kind of converging on, we have, you know, half a dozen really, really good context sources, and we mix them all together. So anyway, BFG, you're going to hear more about it probably in the holidays? [00:47:12]Beyang: I think it'll be online for December 14th. We'll probably mention it. BFG is probably not the public name we're going to go with. I think we might call it like Graph Context or something like that. [00:47:20]Steve: We're officially calling it BFG. [00:47:22]Swyx: You heard it here first. [00:47:24]Beyang: BFG is just kind of like the working name. And so the impetus for BFG was like, if you look at like current AI inline code completion tools and the errors that they make, a lot of the errors that they make, even in kind of like the easy, like single line case, are essentially like type errors, right? Like you're trying to complete a function call and it suggests a variable that you defined earlier, but that variable is the wrong type. [00:47:47]Swyx: And that's the sort of thing [00:47:47]Beyang: where it's like a first year, like freshman CS student would not make that error, right? So like, why does the AI make that error? And the reason is, I mean, the AI is just suggesting things that are plausible without the context of the types or any other like broader files in the code. And so the kind of intuition here is like, why don't we just do the basic thing that like any baseline intelligent human developer would do, which is like click jump to definition, click some fine references and pull in that like Graph Context into the context window and then have it generate the completion. So like that's sort of like the MVP of what BFG was. And turns out that works really well. Like you can eliminate a lot of type errors that AI coding tools make just by pulling in that context. Yeah, but the graph is definitely [00:48:32]Steve: our Chomsky side. [00:48:33]Swyx: Yeah, exactly. [00:48:34]Beyang: So like this like Chomsky-Norvig thing, I think pops up in a bunch of differ

Steve Tuck, Co-Founder & CEO of Oxide Computer Company, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss his work to make modern computers cloud-friendly. Steve describes what it was like going through early investment rounds, and the difficult but important decision he and his co-founder made to build their own switch. Corey and Steve discuss the demand for on-prem computers that are built for cloud capability, and Steve reveals how Oxide approaches their product builds to ensure the masses can adopt their technology wherever they are. About SteveSteve is the Co-founder & CEO of Oxide Computer Company.  He previously was President & COO of Joyent, a cloud computing company acquired by Samsung.  Before that, he spent 10 years at Dell in a number of different roles. Links Referenced: Oxide Computer Company: https://oxide.computer/ On The Metal Podcast: https://oxide.computer/podcasts/on-the-metal TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at RedHat. As your organization grows, so does the complexity of your IT resources. You need a flexible solution that lets you deploy, manage, and scale workloads throughout your entire ecosystem. The Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform simplifies the management of applications and services across your hybrid infrastructure with one platform. Look for it on the AWS Marketplace.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. You know, I often say it—but not usually on the show—that Screaming in the Cloud is a podcast about the business of cloud, which is intentionally overbroad so that I can talk about basically whatever the hell I want to with whoever the hell I'd like. Today's guest is, in some ways of thinking, about as far in the opposite direction from Cloud as it's possible to go and still be involved in the digital world. Steve Tuck is the CEO at Oxide Computer Company. You know, computers, the things we all pretend aren't underpinning those clouds out there that we all use and pay by the hour, gigabyte, second-month-pound or whatever it works out to. Steve, thank you for agreeing to come back on the show after a couple years, and once again suffer my slings and arrows.Steve: Much appreciated. Great to be here. It has been a while. I was looking back, I think three years. This was like, pre-pandemic, pre-interest rates, pre… Twitter going totally sideways.Corey: And I have to ask to start with that, it feels, on some level, like toward the start of the pandemic, when everything was flying high and we'd had low interest rates for a decade, that there was a lot of… well, lunacy lurking around in the industry, my own business saw it, too. It turns out that not giving a shit about the AWS bill is in fact a zero interest rate phenomenon. And with all that money or concentrated capital sloshing around, people decided to do ridiculous things with it. I would have thought, on some level, that, “We're going to start a computer company in the Bay Area making computers,” would have been one of those, but given that we are a year into the correction, and things seem to be heading up into the right for you folks, that take was wrong. How'd I get it wrong?Steve: Well, I mean, first of all, you got part of it right, which is there were just a litany of ridiculous companies and projects and money being thrown in all directions at that time.Corey: An NFT of a computer. We're going to have one of those. That's what you're selling, right? Then you had to actually hard pivot to making the real thing.Steve: That's it. So, we might as well cut right to it, you know. This is—we went through the crypto phase. But you know, our—when we started the company, it was yes, a computer company. It's on the tin. It's definitely kind of the foundation of what we're building. But you know, we think about what a modern computer looks like through the lens of cloud.I was at a cloud computing company for ten years prior to us founding Oxide, so was Bryan Cantrill, CTO, co-founder. And, you know, we are huge, huge fans of cloud computing, which was an interesting kind of dichotomy. Instead of conversations when we were raising for Oxide—because of course, Sand Hill is terrified of hardware. And when we think about what modern computers need to look like, they need to be in support of the characteristics of cloud, and cloud computing being not that you're renting someone else's computers, but that you have fully programmable infrastructure that allows you to slice and dice, you know, compute and storage and networking however software needs. And so, what we set out to go build was a way for the companies that are running on-premises infrastructure—which, by the way, is almost everyone and will continue to be so for a very long time—access to the benefits of cloud computing. And to do that, you need to build a different kind of computing infrastructure and architecture, and you need to plumb the whole thing with software.Corey: There are a number of different ways to view cloud computing. And I think that a lot of the, shall we say, incumbent vendors over in the computer manufacturing world tend to sound kind of like dinosaurs, on some level, where they're always talking in terms of, you're a giant company and you already have a whole bunch of data centers out there. But one of the magical pieces of cloud is you can have a ridiculous idea at nine o'clock tonight and by morning, you'll have a prototype, if you're of that bent. And if it turns out it doesn't work, you're out, you know, 27 cents. And if it does work, you can keep going and not have to stop and rebuild on something enterprise-grade.So, for the small-scale stuff and rapid iteration, cloud providers are terrific. Conversely, when you wind up in the giant fleets of millions of computers, in some cases, there begin to be economic factors that weigh in, and for some on workloads—yes, I know it's true—going to a data center is the economical choice. But my question is, is starting a new company in the direction of building these things, is it purely about economics or is there a capability story tied in there somewhere, too?Steve: Yeah, it's actually economics ends up being a distant third, fourth, in the list of needs and priorities from the companies that we're working with. When we talk about—and just to be clear we're—our demographic, that kind of the part of the market that we are focused on are large enterprises, like, folks that are spending, you know, half a billion, billion dollars a year in IT infrastructure, they, over the last five years, have moved a lot of the use cases that are great for public cloud out to the public cloud, and who still have this very, very large need, be it for latency reasons or cost reasons, security reasons, regulatory reasons, where they need on-premises infrastructure in their own data centers and colo facilities, et cetera. And it is for those workloads in that part of their infrastructure that they are forced to live with enterprise technologies that are 10, 20, 30 years old, you know, that haven't evolved much since I left Dell in 2009. And, you know, when you think about, like, what are the capabilities that are so compelling about cloud computing, one of them is yes, what you mentioned, which is you have an idea at nine o'clock at night and swipe a credit card, and you're off and running. And that is not the case for an idea that someone has who is going to use the on-premises infrastructure of their company. And this is where you get shadow IT and 16 digits to freedom and all the like.Corey: Yeah, everyone with a corporate credit card winds up being a shadow IT source in many cases. If your processes as a company don't make it easier to proceed rather than doing it the wrong way, people are going to be fighting against you every step of the way. Sometimes the only stick you've got is that of regulation, which in some industries, great, but in other cases, no, you get to play Whack-a-Mole. I've talked to too many companies that have specific scanners built into their mail system every month looking for things that look like AWS invoices.Steve: [laugh]. Right, exactly. And so, you know, but if you flip it around, and you say, well, what if the experience for all of my infrastructure that I am running, or that I want to provide to my software development teams, be it rented through AWS, GCP, Azure, or owned for economic reasons or latency reasons, I had a similar set of characteristics where my development team could hit an API endpoint and provision instances in a matter of seconds when they had an idea and only pay for what they use, back to kind of corporate IT. And what if they were able to use the same kind of developer tools they've become accustomed to using, be it Terraform scripts and the kinds of access that they are accustomed to using? How do you make those developers just as productive across the business, instead of just through public cloud infrastructure?At that point, then you are in a much stronger position where you can say, you know, for a portion of things that are, as you pointed out, you know, more unpredictable, and where I want to leverage a bunch of additional services that a particular cloud provider has, I can rent that. And where I've got more persistent workloads or where I want a different economic profile or I need to have something in a very low latency manner to another set of services, I can own it. And that's where I think the real chasm is because today, you just don't—we take for granted the basic plumbing of cloud computing, you know? Elastic Compute, Elastic Storage, you know, networking and security services. And us in the cloud industry end up wanting to talk a lot more about exotic services and, sort of, higher-up stack capabilities. None of that basic plumbing is accessible on-prem.Corey: I also am curious as to where exactly Oxide lives in the stack because I used to build computers for myself in 2000, and it seems like having gone down that path a bit recently, yeah, that process hasn't really improved all that much. The same off-the-shelf components still exist and that's great. We always used to disparagingly call spinning hard drives as spinning rust in racks. You named the company Oxide; you're talking an awful lot about the Rust programming language in public a fair bit of the time, and I'm starting to wonder if maybe words don't mean what I thought they meant anymore. Where do you folks start and stop, exactly?Steve: Yeah, that's a good question. And when we started, we sort of thought the scope of what we were going to do and then what we were going to leverage was smaller than it has turned out to be. And by that I mean, man, over the last three years, we have hit a bunch of forks in the road where we had questions about do we take something off the shelf or do we build it ourselves. And we did not try to build everything ourselves. So, to give you a sense of kind of where the dotted line is, around the Oxide product, what we're delivering to customers is a rack-level computer. So, the minimum size comes in rack form. And I think your listeners are probably pretty familiar with this. But, you know, a rack is—Corey: You would be surprised. It's basically, what are they about seven feet tall?Steve: Yeah, about eight feet tall.Corey: Yeah, yeah. Seven, eight feet, weighs a couple 1000 pounds, you know, make an insulting joke about—Steve: Two feet wide.Corey: —NBA players here. Yeah, all kinds of these things.Steve: Yeah. And big hunk of metal. And in the cases of on-premises infrastructure, it's kind of a big hunk of metal hole, and then a bunch of 1U and 2U boxes crammed into it. What the hyperscalers have done is something very different. They started looking at, you know, at the rack level, how can you get much more dense, power-efficient designs, doing things like using a DC bus bar down the back, instead of having 64 power supplies with cables hanging all over the place in a rack, which I'm sure is what you're more familiar with.Corey: Tremendous amount of weight as well because you have the metal chassis for all of those 1U things, which in some cases, you wind up with, what, 46U in a rack, assuming you can even handle the cooling needs of all that.Steve: That's right.Corey: You have so much duplication, and so much of the weight is just metal separating one thing from the next thing down below it. And there are opportunities for massive improvement, but you need to be at a certain point of scale to get there.Steve: You do. You do. And you also have to be taking on the entire problem. You can't pick at parts of these things. And that's really what we found. So, we started at this sort of—the rack level as sort of the design principle for the product itself and found that that gave us the ability to get to the right geometry, to get as much CPU horsepower and storage and throughput and networking into that kind of chassis for the least amount of wattage required, kind of the most power-efficient design possible.So, it ships at the rack level and it ships complete with both our server sled systems in Oxide, a pair of Oxide switches. This is—when I talk about, like, design decisions, you know, do we build our own switch, it was a big, big, big question early on. We were fortunate even though we were leaning towards thinking we needed to go do that, we had this prospective early investor who was early at AWS and he had asked a very tough question that none of our other investors had asked to this point, which is, “What are you going to do about the switch?”And we knew that the right answer to an investor is like, “No. We're already taking on too much.” We're redesigning a server from scratch in, kind of, the mold of what some of the hyperscalers have learned, doing our own Root of Trust, we're doing our own operating system, hypervisor control plane, et cetera. Taking on the switch could be seen as too much, but we told them, you know, we think that to be able to pull through all of the value of the security benefits and the performance and observability benefits, we can't have then this [laugh], like, obscure third-party switch rammed into this rack.Corey: It's one of those things that people don't think about, but it's the magic of cloud with AWS's network, for example, it's magic. You can get line rate—or damn near it—between any two points, sustained.Steve: That's right.Corey: Try that in the data center, you wind into massive congestion with top-of-rack switches, where, okay, we're going to parallelize this stuff out over, you know, two dozen racks and we're all going to have them seamlessly transfer information between each other at line rate. It's like, “[laugh] no, you're not because those top-of-rack switches will melt and become side-of-rack switches, and then bottom-puddle-of-rack switches. It doesn't work that way.”Steve: That's right.Corey: And you have to put a lot of thought and planning into it. That is something that I've not heard a traditional networking vendor addressing because everyone loves to hand-wave over it.Steve: Well so, and this particular prospective investor, we told him, “We think we have to go build our own switch.” And he said, “Great.” And we said, “You know, we think we're going to lose you as an investor as a result, but this is what we're doing.” And he said, “If you're building your own switch, I want to invest.” And his comment really stuck with us, which is AWS did not stand on their own two feet until they threw out their proprietary switch vendor and built their own.And that really unlocked, like you've just mentioned, like, their ability, both in hardware and software to tune and optimize to deliver that kind of line rate capability. And that is one of the big findings for us as we got into it. Yes, it was really, really hard, but based on a couple of design decisions, P4 being the programming language that we are using as the surround for our silicon, tons of opportunities opened up for us to be able to do similar kinds of optimization and observability. And that has been a big, big win.But to your question of, like, where does it stop? So, we are delivering this complete with a baked-in operating system, hypervisor, control plane. And so, the endpoint of the system, where the customer meets is either hitting an API or a CLI or a console that delivers and kind of gives you the ability to spin up projects. And, you know, if one is familiar with EC2 and EBS and VPC, that VM level of abstraction is where we stop.Corey: That, I think, is a fair way of thinking about it. And a lot of cloud folks are going to pooh-pooh it as far as saying, “Oh well, just virtual machines. That's old cloud. That just treats the cloud like a data center.” And in many cases, yes, it does because there are ways to build modern architectures that are event-driven on top of things like Lambda, and API Gateway, and the rest, but you take a look at what my customers are doing and what drives the spend, it is invariably virtual machines that are largely persistent.Sometimes they scale up, sometimes they scale down, but there's always a baseline level of load that people like to hand-wave away the fact that what they're fundamentally doing in a lot of these cases, is paying the cloud provider to handle the care and feeding of those systems, which can be expensive, yes, but also delivers significant innovation beyond what almost any company is going to be able to deliver in-house. There is no way around it. AWS is better than you are—whoever you happen to—be at replacing failed hard drives. That is a simple fact. They have teams of people who are the best in the world of replacing failed hard drives. You generally do not. They are going to be better at that than you. But that's not the only axis. There's not one calculus that leads to, is cloud a scam or is cloud a great value proposition for us? The answer is always a deeply nuanced, “It depends.”Steve: Yeah, I mean, I think cloud is a great value proposition for most and a growing amount of software that's being developed and deployed and operated. And I think, you know, one of the myths that is out there is, hey, turn over your IT to AWS because we have or you know, a cloud provider—because we have such higher caliber personnel that are really good at swapping hard drives and dealing with networks and operationally keeping this thing running in a highly available manner that delivers good performance. That is certainly true, but a lot of the operational value in an AWS is been delivered via software, the automation, the observability, and not actual people putting hands on things. And it's an important point because that's been a big part of what we're building into the product. You know, just because you're running infrastructure in your own data center, it does not mean that you should have to spend, you know, 1000 hours a month across a big team to maintain and operate it. And so, part of that, kind of, cloud, hyperscaler innovation that we're baking into this product is so that it is easier to operate with much, much, much lower overhead in a highly available, resilient manner.Corey: So, I've worked in a number of data center facilities, but the companies I was working with, were always at a scale where these were co-locations, where they would, in some cases, rent out a rack or two, in other cases, they'd rent out a cage and fill it with their own racks. They didn't own the facilities themselves. Those were always handled by other companies. So, my question for you is, if I want to get a pile of Oxide racks into my environment in a data center, what has to change? What are the expectations?I mean, yes, there's obviously going to be power and requirements at the data center colocation is very conversant with, but Open Compute, for example, had very specific requirements—to my understanding—around things like the airflow construction of the environment that they're placed within. How prescriptive is what you've built, in terms of doing a building retrofit to start using you folks?Steve: Yeah, definitely not. And this was one of the tensions that we had to balance as we were designing the product. For all of the benefits of hyperscaler computing, some of the design center for you know, the kinds of racks that run in Google and Amazon and elsewhere are hyperscaler-focused, which is unlimited power, in some cases, data centers designed around the equipment itself. And where we were headed, which was basically making hyperscaler infrastructure available to, kind of, the masses, the rest of the market, these folks don't have unlimited power and they aren't going to go be able to go redesign data centers. And so no, the experience should be—with exceptions for folks maybe that have very, very limited access to power—that you roll this rack into your existing data center. It's on standard floor tile, that you give it power, and give it networking and go.And we've spent a lot of time thinking about how we can operate in the wide-ranging environmental characteristics that are commonplace in data centers that focus on themselves, colo facilities, and the like. So, that's really on us so that the customer is not having to go to much work at all to kind of prepare and be ready for it.Corey: One of the challenges I have is how to think about what you've done because you are rack-sized. But what that means is that my own experimentation at home recently with on-prem stuff for smart home stuff involves a bunch of Raspberries Pi and a [unintelligible 00:19:42], but I tend to more or less categorize you the same way that I do AWS Outposts, as well as mythical creatures, like unicorns or giraffes, where I don't believe that all these things actually exist because I haven't seen them. And in fact, to get them in my house, all four of those things would theoretically require a loading dock if they existed, and that's a hard thing to fake on a demo signup form, as it turns out. How vaporware is what you've built? Is this all on paper and you're telling amazing stories or do they exist in the wild?Steve: So, last time we were on, it was all vaporware. It was a couple of napkin drawings and a seed round of funding.Corey: I do recall you not using that description at the time, for what it's worth. Good job.Steve: [laugh]. Yeah, well, at least we were transparent where we were going through the race. We had some napkin drawings and we had some good ideas—we thought—and—Corey: You formalize those and that's called Microsoft PowerPoint.Steve: That's it. A hundred percent.Corey: The next generative AI play is take the scrunched-up, stained napkin drawing, take a picture of it, and convert it to a slide.Steve: Google Docs, you know, one of those. But no, it's got a lot of scars from the build and it is real. In fact, next week, we are going to be shipping our first commercial systems. So, we have got a line of racks out in our manufacturing facility in lovely Rochester, Minnesota. Fun fact: Rochester, Minnesota, is where the IBM AS/400s were built.Corey: I used to work in that market, of all things.Steve: Really?Corey: Selling tape drives in the AS/400. I mean, I still maintain there's no real mainframe migration to the cloud play because there's no AWS/400. A joke that tends to sail over an awful lot of people's heads because, you know, most people aren't as miserable in their career choices as I am.Steve: Okay, that reminds me. So, when we were originally pitching Oxide and we were fundraising, we [laugh]—in a particular investor meeting, they asked, you know, “What would be a good comp? Like how should we think about what you are doing?” And fortunately, we had about 20 investor meetings to go through, so burning one on this was probably okay, but we may have used the AS/400 as a comp, talking about how [laugh] mainframe systems did such a good job of building hardware and software together. And as you can imagine, there were some blank stares in that room.But you know, there are some good analogs to historically in the computing industry, when you know, the industry, the major players in the industry, were thinking about how to deliver holistic systems to support end customers. And, you know, we see this in the what Apple has done with the iPhone, and you're seeing this as a lot of stuff in the automotive industry is being pulled in-house. I was listening to a good podcast. Jim Farley from Ford was talking about how the automotive industry historically outsourced all of the software that controls cars, right? So, like, Bosch would write the software for the controls for your seats.And they had all these suppliers that were writing the software, and what it meant was that innovation was not possible because you'd have to go out to suppliers to get software changes for any little change you wanted to make. And in the computing industry, in the 80s, you saw this blow apart where, like, firmware got outsourced. In the IBM and the clones, kind of, race, everyone started outsourcing firmware and outsourcing software. Microsoft started taking over operating systems. And then VMware emerged and was doing a virtualization layer.And this, kind of, fragmented ecosystem is the landscape today that every single on-premises infrastructure operator has to struggle with. It's a kit car. And so, pulling it back together, designing things in a vertically integrated manner is what the hyperscalers have done. And so, you mentioned Outposts. And, like, it's a good example of—I mean, the most public cloud of public cloud companies created a way for folks to get their system on-prem.I mean, if you need anything to underscore the draw and the demand for cloud computing-like, infrastructure on-prem, just the fact that that emerged at all tells you that there is this big need. Because you've got, you know, I don't know, a trillion dollars worth of IT infrastructure out there and you have maybe 10% of it in the public cloud. And that's up from 5% when Jassy was on stage in '21, talking about 95% of stuff living outside of AWS, but there's going to be a giant market of customers that need to own and operate infrastructure. And again, things have not improved much in the last 10 or 20 years for them.Corey: They have taken a tone onstage about how, “Oh, those workloads that aren't in the cloud, yet, yeah, those people are legacy idiots.” And I don't buy that for a second because believe it or not—I know that this cuts against what people commonly believe in public—but company execs are generally not morons, and they make decisions with context and constraints that we don't see. Things are the way they are for a reason. And I promise that 90% of corporate IT workloads that still live on-prem are not being managed or run by people who've never heard of the cloud. There was a decision made when some other things were migrating of, do we move this thing to the cloud or don't we? And the answer at the time was no, we're going to keep this thing on-prem where it is now for a variety of reasons of varying validity. But I don't view that as a bug. I also, frankly, don't want to live in a world where all the computers are basically run by three different companies.Steve: You're spot on, which is, like, it does a total disservice to these smart and forward-thinking teams in every one of the Fortune 1000-plus companies who are taking the constraints that they have—and some of those constraints are not monetary or entirely workload-based. If you want to flip it around, we were talking to a large cloud SaaS company and their reason for wanting to extend it beyond the public cloud is because they want to improve latency for their e-commerce platform. And navigating their way through the complex layers of the networking stack at GCP to get to where the customer assets are that are in colo facilities, adds lag time on the platform that can cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. And so, we need to think behind this notion of, like, “Oh, well, the dark ages are for software that can't run in the cloud, and that's on-prem. And it's just a matter of time until everything moves to the cloud.”In the forward-thinking models of public cloud, it should be both. I mean, you should have a consistent experience, from a certain level of the stack down, everywhere. And then it's like, do I want to rent or do I want to own for this particular use case? In my vast set of infrastructure needs, do I want this to run in a data center that Amazon runs or do I want this to run in a facility that is close to this other provider of mine? And I think that's best for all. And then it's not this kind of false dichotomy of quality infrastructure or ownership.Corey: I find that there are also workloads where people will come to me and say, “Well, we don't think this is going to be economical in the cloud”—because again, I focus on AWS bills. That is the lens I view things through, and—“The AWS sales rep says it will be. What do you think?” And I look at what they're doing and especially if involves high volumes of data transfer, I laugh a good hearty laugh and say, “Yeah, keep that thing in the data center where it is right now. You will thank me for it later.”It's, “Well, can we run this in an economical way in AWS?” As long as you're okay with economical meaning six times what you're paying a year right now for the same thing, yeah, you can. I wouldn't recommend it. And the numbers sort of speak for themselves. But it's not just an economic play.There's also the story of, does this increase their capability? Does it let them move faster toward their business goals? And in a lot of cases, the answer is no, it doesn't. It's one of those business process things that has to exist for a variety of reasons. You don't get to reimagine it for funsies and even if you did, it doesn't advance the company in what they're trying to do any, so focus on something that differentiates as opposed to this thing that you're stuck on.Steve: That's right. And what we see today is, it is easy to be in that mindset of running things on-premises is kind of backwards-facing because the experience of it is today still very, very difficult. I mean, talking to folks and they're sharing with us that it takes a hundred days from the time all the different boxes land in their warehouse to actually having usable infrastructure that developers can use. And our goal and what we intend to go hit with Oxide as you can roll in this complete rack-level system, plug it in, within an hour, you have developers that are accessing cloud-like services out of the infrastructure. And that—God, countless stories of firmware bugs that would send all the fans in the data center nonlinear and soak up 100 kW of power.Corey: Oh, God. And the problems that you had with the out-of-band management systems. For a long time, I thought Drax stood for, “Dell, RMA Another Computer.” It was awful having to deal with those things. There was so much room for innovation in that space, which no one really grabbed onto.Steve: There was a really, really interesting talk at DEFCON that we just stumbled upon yesterday. The NVIDIA folks are giving a talk on BMC exploits… and like, a very, very serious BMC exploit. And again, it's what most people don't know is, like, first of all, the BMC, the Baseboard Management Controller, is like the brainstem of the computer. It has access to—it's a backdoor into all of your infrastructure. It's a computer inside a computer and it's got software and hardware that your server OEM didn't build and doesn't understand very well.And firmware is even worse because you know, firmware written by you know, an American Megatrends or other is a big blob of software that gets loaded into these systems that is very hard to audit and very hard to ascertain what's happening. And it's no surprise when, you know, back when we were running all the data centers at a cloud computing company, that you'd run into these issues, and you'd go to the server OEM and they'd kind of throw their hands up. Well, first they'd gaslight you and say, “We've never seen this problem before,” but when you thought you've root-caused something down to firmware, it was anyone's guess. And this is kind of the current condition today. And back to, like, the journey to get here, we kind of realized that you had to blow away that old extant firmware layer, and we rewrote our own firmware in Rust. Yes [laugh], I've done a lot in Rust.Corey: No, it was in Rust, but, on some level, that's what Nitro is, as best I can tell, on the AWS side. But it turns out that you don't tend to have the same resources as a one-and-a-quarter—at the moment—trillion-dollar company. That keeps [valuing 00:30:53]. At one point, they lost a comma and that was sad and broke all my logic for that and I haven't fixed it since. Unfortunate stuff.Steve: Totally. I think that was another, kind of, question early on from certainly a lot of investors was like, “Hey, how are you going to pull this off with a smaller team and there's a lot of surface area here?” Certainly a reasonable question. Definitely was hard. The one advantage—among others—is, when you are designing something kind of in a vertical holistic manner, those design integration points are narrowed down to just your equipment.And when someone's writing firmware, when AMI is writing firmware, they're trying to do it to cover hundreds and hundreds of components across dozens and dozens of vendors. And we have the advantage of having this, like, purpose-built system, kind of, end-to-end from the lowest level from first boot instruction, all the way up through the control plane and from rack to switch to server. That definitely helped narrow the scope.Corey: This episode has been fake sponsored by our friends at AWS with the following message: Graviton Graviton, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton. Thank you for your l-, lack of support for this show. Now, AWS has been talking about Graviton an awful lot, which is their custom in-house ARM processor. Apple moved over to ARM and instead of talking about benchmarks they won't publish and marketing campaigns with words that don't mean anything, they've let the results speak for themselves. In time, I found that almost all of my workloads have moved over to ARM architecture for a variety of reason, and my laptop now gets 15 hours of battery life when all is said and done. You're building these things on top of x86. What is the deal there? I do not accept that if that you hadn't heard of ARM until just now because, as mentioned, Graviton, Graviton, Graviton.Steve: That's right. Well, so why x86, to start? And I say to start because we have just launched our first generation products. And our first-generation or second-generation products that we are now underway working on are going to be x86 as well. We've built this system on AMD Milan silicon; we are going to be launching a Genoa sled.But when you're thinking about what silicon to use, obviously, there's a bunch of parts that go into the decision. You're looking at the kind of applicability to workload, performance, power management, for sure, and if you carve up what you are trying to achieve, x86 is still a terrific fit for the broadest set of workloads that our customers are trying to solve for. And choosing which x86 architecture was certainly an easier choice, come 2019. At this point, AMD had made a bunch of improvements in performance and energy efficiency in the chip itself. We've looked at other architectures and I think as we are incorporating those in the future roadmap, it's just going to be a question of what are you trying to solve for.You mentioned power management, and that is kind of commonly been a, you know, low power systems is where folks have gone beyond x86. Is we're looking forward to hardware acceleration products and future products, we'll certainly look beyond x86, but x86 has a long, long road to go. It still is kind of the foundation for what, again, is a general-purpose cloud infrastructure for being able to slice and dice for a variety of workloads.Corey: True. I have to look around my environment and realize that Intel is not going anywhere. And that's not just an insult to their lack of progress on committed roadmaps that they consistently miss. But—Steve: [sigh].Corey: Enough on that particular topic because we want to keep this, you know, polite.Steve: Intel has definitely had some struggles for sure. They're very public ones, I think. We were really excited and continue to be very excited about their Tofino silicon line. And this came by way of the Barefoot networks acquisition. I don't know how much you had paid attention to Tofino, but what was really, really compelling about Tofino is the focus on both hardware and software and programmability.So, great chip. And P4 is the programming language that surrounds that. And we have gotten very, very deep on P4, and that is some of the best tech to come out of Intel lately. But from a core silicon perspective for the rack, we went with AMD. And again, that was a pretty straightforward decision at the time. And we're planning on having this anchored around AMD silicon for a while now.Corey: One last question I have before we wind up calling it an episode, it seems—at least as of this recording, it's still embargoed, but we're not releasing this until that winds up changing—you folks have just raised another round, which means that your napkin doodles have apparently drawn more folks in, and now that you're shipping, you're also not just bringing in customers, but also additional investor money. Tell me about that.Steve: Yes, we just completed our Series A. So, when we last spoke three years ago, we had just raised our seed and had raised $20 million at the time, and we had expected that it was going to take about that to be able to build the team and build the product and be able to get to market, and [unintelligible 00:36:14] tons of technical risk along the way. I mean, there was technical risk up and down the stack around this [De Novo 00:36:21] server design, this the switch design. And software is still the kind of disproportionate majority of what this product is, from hypervisor up through kind of control plane, the cloud services, et cetera. So—Corey: We just view it as software with a really, really confusing hardware dongle.Steve: [laugh]. Yeah. Yes.Corey: Super heavy. We're talking enterprise and government-grade here.Steve: That's right. There's a lot of software to write. And so, we had a bunch of milestones that as we got through them, one of the big ones was getting Milan silicon booting on our firmware. It was funny it was—this was the thing that clearly, like, the industry was most suspicious of, us doing our own firmware, and you could see it when we demonstrated booting this, like, a year-and-a-half ago, and AMD all of a sudden just lit up, from kind of arm's length to, like, “How can we help? This is amazing.” You know? And they could start to see the benefits of when you can tie low-level silicon intelligence up through a hypervisor there's just—Corey: No I love the existing firmware I have. Looks like it was written in 1984 and winds up having terrible user ergonomics that hasn't been updated at all, and every time something comes through, it's a 50/50 shot as whether it fries the box or not. Yeah. No, I want that.Steve: That's right. And you look at these hyperscale data centers, and it's like, no. I mean, you've got intelligence from that first boot instruction through a Root of Trust, up through the software of the hyperscaler, and up to the user level. And so, as we were going through and kind of knocking down each one of these layers of the stack, doing our own firmware, doing our own hardware Root of Trust, getting that all the way plumbed up into the hypervisor and the control plane, number one on the customer side, folks moved from, “This is really interesting. We need to figure out how we can bring cloud capabilities to our data centers. Talk to us when you have something,” to, “Okay. We actually”—back to the earlier question on vaporware, you know, it was great having customers out here to Emeryville where they can put their hands on the rack and they can, you know, put your hands on software, but being able to, like, look at real running software and that end cloud experience.And that led to getting our first couple of commercial contracts. So, we've got some great first customers, including a large department of the government, of the federal government, and a leading firm on Wall Street that we're going to be shipping systems to in a matter of weeks. And as you can imagine, along with that, that drew a bunch of renewed interest from the investor community. Certainly, a different climate today than it was back in 2019, but what was great to see is, you still have great investors that understand the importance of making bets in the hard tech space and in companies that are looking to reinvent certain industries. And so, we added—our existing investors all participated. We added a bunch of terrific new investors, both strategic and institutional.And you know, this capital is going to be super important now that we are headed into market and we are beginning to scale up the business and make sure that we have a long road to go. And of course, maybe as importantly, this was a real confidence boost for our customers. They're excited to see that Oxide is going to be around for a long time and that they can invest in this technology as an important part of their infrastructure strategy.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me about, well, how far you've come in a few years. If people want to learn more and have the requisite loading dock, where should they go to find you?Steve: So, we try to put everything up on the site. So, oxidecomputer.com or oxide.computer. We also, if you remember, we did [On the Metal 00:40:07]. So, we had a Tales from the Hardware-Software Interface podcast that we did when we started. We have shifted that to Oxide and Friends, which the shift there is we're spending a little bit more time talking about the guts of what we built and why. So, if folks are interested in, like, why the heck did you build a switch and what does it look like to build a switch, we actually go to depth on that. And you know, what does bring-up on a new server motherboard look like? And it's got some episodes out there that might be worth checking out.Corey: We will definitely include a link to that in the [show notes 00:40:36]. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.Steve: Yeah, Corey. Thanks for having me on.Corey: Steve Tuck, CEO at Oxide Computer Company. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this episode, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry ranting comment because you are in fact a zoology major, and you're telling me that some animals do in fact exist. But I'm pretty sure of the two of them, it's the unicorn.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Rose Plate Special: Charity, Week 9 Here's what we'll say about the finale: Kudos to the producers for faking out Sammi fairly effectively, but is it even a fakeout when she was operating on little sleep and lots of pinball on the brain? Hard to say. See you all for a bonus episode of Jilly Box opening before Season 16 of our podcast launches at the end of September! Transcription Please forgive minor typos! Sammi: And you're listening to Rose Plate Special, the most dramatic googly eyeingist I have nothing for this because everything we said. Steve: Was going to happen, happened. Sammi: Paradise promoing us recap podcast of The Bachelorette ever. Sammi: Yeah, it was so bad. Steve: Ever. Steve: Sammi. Steve: Are you the bachelorette? Steve: Nostradamus perhaps. Sammi: Maybe. Sammi: But here's the thing that's interesting. Sammi: So first of all, sorry this is late everyone. Sammi: I was on vacation and I actually took a break, which I never do, and so you should all be proud of me. Sammi: But here we are also. Sammi: Okay, so a couple of pieces of news. Sammi: So yes, I was on vacation and that was fun. Sammi: That's not really news. Sammi: Second piece of news that is news. Sammi: The jilly box is coming probably in the next day or two. Sammi: So if you are interested, we can do another special we'll do between now and like The Golden Bachelor. Sammi: We can do a special jilly unboxing for. Sammi: Oh, and then yeah, here's what's interesting about this. Sammi: Also, my notes are a little spotty, so I may need you to fill in because I watched this. Sammi: So I was just telling Steve that one of the things that we did on vacation is we went to this retrocade and we played all you can play Pinball until like, I don't know, almost two in the morning. Sammi: And we got home and we started talking about the top 100 pinball games and we were talking about what we would want in our basement and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And then I was like, oh s***, I got to start watching The Bachelorete in case we decide we want to record. Sammi: So I went to bed at four in the morning. Sammi: This is not like me. Steve: And we're recording late anyways. Sammi: Yeah, I was up until four in the morning watching it and then I woke up the next day and finished it. Sammi: So I might have missed some key things because I was all jacked up about pinball. Sammi: Like I literally had maybe two drinks the whole night. Sammi: It wasn't like, oh, it's partying hard. Sammi: I was like really trying to crack the game. Sammi: Barbed wire. Sammi: Could not get it. Sammi: Oh wow, not get it. Sammi: But medieval madness. Sammi: I had a really good round. Sammi: Yeah, it's one of my favorites. Sammi: Anyway, so that's what I was doing when I was taking notes. Sammi: But yeah, so what's interesting though is despite knowing everything that happened, they tricked me. Sammi: I got tricked because I was like, oh my God, maybe it is going to be Joey. Sammi: And I was like, wow, everything I thought was wrong. Sammi: And I was like so shocked. Sammi: And I was like, no way. Sammi: So they fooled me hard. Sammi: I really just was like, oh, this is how everyone's leaning and this is what's going to happen. Sammi: And last week I was like, datten is a sure thing, he is a sure thing. Sammi: And then I was like, I'm just not so sure. Steve: So we've been in this game long enough. Steve: Sammi, this is the trickery. Steve: Because they knew that we knew that to was going to run away with this thing, so they had to throw us some swerves. Sammi: I got so fooled. Steve: Well, one thing's for sure, because this episode starts off on Aaron, nobody in the entire universe thought that Aaron was going to be sticking don. Steve: I don't think they do Vegas odds for the Bachelor or the Bachelorete. Steve: But if they did, you wouldn't even be allowed to bet on Aaron because that's how bad of a shot he. Sammi: So yeah, it was just so basically and also they do this thing at the very beginning and, like, dawn gets claps and Joey gets claps and Aaron got nothing. Steve: No, and it's not because he's a bad guy. Steve: He's the most uninteresting man in the world. Sammi: They were just did something. Sammi: Did you just say Aaron? Sammi: Oh, I missed it. Sammi: I was thinking about something. Sammi: So and then when they're like, we're going to do a thing that's never happened. Sammi: Okay, this was my guess, which I think is funny. Sammi: Like Charity's brother is going to come on and propose to a long term partner on the show. Sammi: But that didn't happen. Sammi: But that's what I thought because I was like, bring nehemiah back. Sammi: But that's not what happened. Sammi: So this is the best part, too, is Aaron. Sammi: So she's like, obviously this is what was going through Charity's mind. Sammi: I'm thinking is she was probably like, he came all the way to Fiji. Sammi: What am I going to do, say go home? Sammi: She's like, I have to make it feel like he has somewhat of a shot or like something could happen. Sammi: But I love that she was like, this is giving me acid reflux. Steve: Yeah, it's like, bro, you flew probably like 14 hours just to get dumped, which is real sad. Steve: And if someone in production had half a heart, they would have told you to stay at home, but they didn't. Steve: And then it's also sad because it's like, I mean, we all knew you had to know deep down that she didn't have a shot. Steve: And then when she's finally and you know, she walks about and everything, he's just like, well, it's okay. Steve: I'm still in your corner. Steve: It's like, dude, she doesn't need you and you don't need to be here. Steve: What are you doing here? Steve: What's going on, Aaron? Sammi: Come on. Steve: Come on. Steve: I don't know. Steve: And then he's such a dork and not in the fun way. Steve: It's just uninteresting. Steve: And then he's going to be on paradise and I could not find a shred of anything inside of myself that got excited for Aaron on. Sammi: Feel like I feel like you just like Aaron a lot more than I do. Sammi: But I just felt really bad for like I was just I mean, maybe this was something that raised his stock enough to make it worth it for him to be on paradise. Sammi: It gave him more of a story that's something that some of the women on the beach might be like, wow, that's so romantic. Sammi: You flew all the way to Fiji. Sammi: It could work in his favor, for sure. Sammi: But yeah, I was mean, I don't know. Sammi: And then he was like, the emotions I've always felt it's good to feel again. Sammi: And I was like, it's been like two days, Aaron. Sammi: I mean, it's not like it's been so long. Sammi: It's like maybe been a couple days. Sammi: But the best part about this whole thing was they get to the rose ceremony and Joey's like, am I on drugs? Sammi: He's like, blinking. Sammi: I don't have glasses to clean. Sammi: What's happening? Sammi: Wait, Aaron's here and Xavier isn't? Sammi: It was so sweet that he was like, what? Sammi: I don't even know. Sammi: And then as soon as she gave Joey a rose, I was like, well, Erin is going home because obviously Dotton's getting the other one. Sammi: That was really obvious. Sammi: And then she's like, Erin, can you come with me? Sammi: And he knew. Sammi: Then he's like, okay, yeah, Aaron is. Steve: In the top three because technically you have to have a top three. Steve: So what are you going to do? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: I guess at the end I feel like at the end that we've had it before, where it's just like two of them, where one of them goes home early and then it's just the two of them at the rose ceremony. Sammi: It's like, well, you both get the roses. Sammi: No drama there. Sammi: Goodbye. Sammi: Yeah, but yeah, so that was inevitable. Sammi: It was just inevitable. Sammi: All my notes about Erin talking with Jesse afterwards were just that it was a generic talk and he's going to be in paradise. Sammi: And when they announced he was in paradise, I was like, that means he's not the bachelor. Sammi: And that's good. Sammi: Yeah, because that wouldn't be interesting unless they gave him his own camera. Sammi: Because I do think his insecurities would be interesting to watch. Sammi: His internal monologue would be interesting to watch. Sammi: But now we get the time with Charity's family and Joey is first. Sammi: And Joey had a terrible hometown date. Sammi: I mean, it wasn't like the worst hometown date, but it was just like awkward and lacking and he had the worst out of the four. Steve: I shouldn't say it was a B minus. Steve: It was not like a colossal faceplant like in the past. Steve: And many a man has gotten farther or as far as Joey with a worse hometown, but it was not yeah, yeah. Sammi: It just was like, oh, wow. Sammi: And so of course, then, so what's interesting is what I'm trying to say is Joey's hometown date was not very good. Sammi: But with Charity's family, it was like, he's the one and he's the best one, and don't let him slip away. Sammi: He's perfect. Sammi: And then, you know, Dalton's hometown, it was like, you are our family now. Sammi: You are stuck with us. Sammi: You two are soulmates. Sammi: This is happening. Sammi: And then yeah, it's like I can't really talk about this without comparing these right away. Sammi: But then Dalton's time with Charity's family was just kind of like I don't know, I mean like he's fine or whatever. Sammi: He's just familiar and he's just kind of like who she always goes for. Steve: And that's interesting too. Sammi: We want to see her shake it up a little bit. Sammi: And I was like, is this really the time to be like rolling the dice? Sammi: I don't know, it was just kind of a weird yeah, anyway just try. Steve: To commit to marriage. Steve: Yeah right. Steve: But like I don't like I like Joey. Steve: I don't think he's particularly interesting but he's a very nice young man. Sammi: I think he's very sweet. Steve: Yeah, but the thing that really stuck out to me, Dotton also very sweet guy. Sammi: Oh yeah. Steve: But when Charity was know, both these guys meet with her parents and they like both of them but they like Joey Moore. Steve: And her mom made the comment that Dotton was kind of like the guy she had dated in the past. Steve: Which is weird because she said that about Xavier. Steve: And I feel like in my head, aside from them being like African American men in their mid to late twenty s, I don't see a lot of similarities between Xavier. Sammi: They're very different I will say. Sammi: I mean they both have interest in the health fields. Sammi: I guess that would be a commonality but Dotton's coming at it from more of a coachee integrative health personal trainer. Steve: And that kind of an interest. Steve: It doesn't really inform their vibes or their personality. Sammi: Personalities are very different. Sammi: But that's the only other thing that at least what I could see. Sammi: They have that in common. Sammi: But Xavier's in a lab and datten's more like with so that's very mean. Sammi: Like their families were pretty mean. Sammi: I just don't get the think and maybe I could be wrong. Sammi: I don't feel like dunn's one of those go out with the boys kind of guys like oh well, if I'm out with my boys and something like I just would be surprised if he but I was surprised when Xavier said it, so who the h*** knows. Sammi: But I just don't get that feeling from him that that's something that's super important to him to be out with a bunch of toxic dudes. Sammi: I don't that's but it could just be know a first impression thing where it's like oh, this seems similar or whatever because Joey is so different that it's just like that's the only way she could compare it. Sammi: I have no like it's like who knows? Sammi: But I think they're both really good dudes. Sammi: But it was interesting and even though it's like I know what happens with production and editing and how they choose the stuff and whatever but still even though I know all that and I've been watching this show for 20 plus years, I was still like, oh, no, this is not good. Sammi: And I was like, maybe Danton's not as good as I thought he was. Sammi: Because also last week we were thrown for a loop. Sammi: So I was like, oh, maybe all the things that I was feeling about how good they were together are wrong. Sammi: And then they, of course, did stuff where it's like she's saying I love you to Joey, and then Dotton says I love you to her and she doesn't say it back, and you're like, oh, God. Sammi: Oh, no, what's happening? Sammi: This is so bad. Steve: I like a season designed around just, like, emotionally messing with basically well, that's how I felt. Sammi: I was like, what is going on? Sammi: And it's like, late at night and I'm tired and I'm watching this episode and I'm like, what is happening? Sammi: And then, yeah, gosh. Sammi: I don't mean I will say because I feel like the other thing that Charity's mom seemed to focus on was just like, how Joey is just googly eyed all the time. Sammi: But I feel like his I don't think he would ever be like, he is affectionate and whatever, but he's more like, I don't know, kind of secure and solid and whatever. Sammi: So I think the way they just look at someone they're interested in is different. Sammi: But anyway, it was an interesting juxtaposition, and I wrote wow a lot on my notes, apparently. Sammi: I'm like, wow, family thinks he's the one. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: And then this whole thing is, like, interspersed with this whole oh, well, one of you is going to date the bachelor, but you don't know which one of you it is. Sammi: But we invited you all here, so it's one of the people we invited here. Sammi: It's obviously not going to be some random person from the audience. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And I was like, everybody stand up if you would like to date the Bachelor, like, what the h***? Sammi: This is not how this works. Sammi: And he interviews all these people. Sammi: This was one thing that I thought was weird, and I was trying to find some conversation about it online, and I could not because they had someone from Oahu get interviewed. Sammi: Right. Sammi: And Joey lives in Hawaii and everything and everything that happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Which happened in my family's neighborhood. Sammi: And luckily their house is still okay, but I don't know if they even know if some of their friends are alive. Sammi: It was very strange that they didn't did I miss it? Sammi: Because I'm like, I was tired and I did not watch this live. Sammi: They didn't say anything about what happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Did they? Sammi: I mean, I know it's a different island, but a lot of people got moved to, um, for safety and because of capacity and all that stuff. Sammi: And I was like, this is strange. Sammi: This is live. Sammi: So this already happened. Steve: Yeah. Steve: That you'd think that they would make some mention of it. Steve: Now, it was really entirely possible that I got up to get another slice of pizza or grab a drink or go to the bathroom or whatever. Steve: I have zero recollection of them saying anything. Steve: So if they said it, it wasn't a prominent point in the episode. Sammi: It was just weird that they focused so much on Oahu and where Joey's living, right? Sammi: Like, it's just so strange. Sammi: And I'm confused that they didn't mention anything. Sammi: And I feel like they've gotten better about stuff like that, where it's like, oh, this is something, even if the conversation is a little put on, where they're like, we're going to have a serious talk, and then they kind of talk about something, then they're like, we're glad we had this serious talk. Sammi: But I was like, this is weird that you're focusing extra on it, that you're bringing in somebody to be on the show who lives on Oahu, and then you don't bring it. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: Anyway, if anybody else feels the same way, let me know. Sammi: But I thought that was OD. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: Totally. Sammi: Not that I think The Bachelor is great for that stuff in general, but it's like if you want to start changing your image and gearing towards a younger audience, you might want to, I don't know, be in touch with reality anyway, especially something like that, where it's. Steve: Like the thing dominating the news cycle. Steve: It's like, hey, you want an easy layup? Steve: Guys just say anything? Steve: Apparently not. Sammi: Oh, well, yeah, it's just really strange. Sammi: Anyway, I'll let you know if I find any conversations about it. Sammi: But I was, like, trying to Google it. Sammi: I was like, is anybody else frustrated about this? Sammi: But I didn't see anything. Sammi: But I also wasn't looking super duper hard. Sammi: I was looking half. Sammi: So charity's, mom. Sammi: Okay, so with datten yes. Sammi: She's like, he checks the boxes, right? Sammi: He's familiar. Sammi: Familiar is easy. Sammi: She wants Charity to have a hard time, I guess I don't. Sammi: And I wrote, well, maybe Joey Winston dotten's the obvious Bachelor, but that wouldn't necessarily make sense. Sammi: Dot, dot, dot. Sammi: I'm like, this is where I start to question myself. Sammi: Yeah, and Charity is having a hard time, too, because she's like, I just want to push. Sammi: I just want a little just a little nudge and like, a direct just tell me how you're feeling. Sammi: And, okay, this is the part where I felt like I was getting tired and I was getting confused, but I know at the very least, she asked her mom, tell me what you think. Sammi: And her mom's like, I'm not going to do that. Sammi: And she's like, why? Sammi: And she's like, I don't know. Sammi: I'm direct. Sammi: And she's like, but you're not being direct right now. Sammi: That's what I gathered out of it. Sammi: It was like her mom was like, well, you know, I'm direct, but I'm not going to do that for you at this moment. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And she's like, don't you know what you want? Sammi: And Charity is like, no, that's why I am asking you. Sammi: And she's like, come on, you know. Sammi: Right. Sammi: You know, you know, she's like and then yeah. Sammi: So she goes so she's confused, whatever. Sammi: She has a date with Joey and he brought a very cute gift for Charity. Sammi: They both did a good job with the gifts. Sammi: And he gives her the poem that they got in New Orleans and that's very oh, she mentioned how the poem made the hairs on her arms stand up and they made the hairs on my arm stand up too. Sammi: So whoever's putting this season together, good job. Sammi: I was like, wow. Sammi: And then I was fully sold on at this point. Sammi: I was like, well, if Joey ends up with Charity, I'm okay with that. Sammi: That's good, I'm happy, that's fine. Steve: This is totally mission accomplished, right? Steve: What is the purpose of this episode? Steve: The purpose of this episode is twofold. Steve: One, to make us question what we know to be absolute reality, which is down, it's going to win. Steve: And two, to make us like Joey as much as humanly possible and potentially make him slightly more interesting than he is. Steve: So that when he is announced as the bachelor, we go, okay, I'm fine with that. Steve: I think they pretty much did it. Steve: And honestly, I don't know when Charity was announced. Steve: I'm sure you can go back to an old episode. Steve: I'll just be like, I don't know, no personality, didn't see anything, whatever. Steve: And she's amazing. Steve: She's like the greatest Bachelorete of all time, practically. Steve: Maybe, maybe this will work out. Steve: Maybe I've been selling Joey short. Sammi: Yeah, I mean that's what always I mean outside of like I feel like I always liked Katie before it was Katie's season, you know what mean? Sammi: Like that was kind of an obvious, like Ashley long time. Sammi: Like there's a few people that and I liked, you know, there's like a few people that I was always like, oh yeah, they're going to be good. Sammi: But there's some people we didn't see until the very end. Sammi: Their know, you get like little glimpses of, um, yeah, I think Joey could definitely be a good mean out of what happened. Sammi: Like everything that happened at the end, I was like, well, he's the only obvious choice. Sammi: Like if you don't choose him, you're going into a different season. Sammi: There's no way. Sammi: And anyway, I'm just like looking through the vulture recap to see if there's anything yeah, if there's any notes in there because I just saw something. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: We're waiting to see if she's going to pick Joey or Don. Sammi: Right. Sammi: We obviously know what uh, and then we get into the then. Sammi: So Brooklyn and Kat are going to be in paradise and Braden's in the audience and they do this paradise promo and they're like four former bachelorettes are crashing the party. Sammi: There's a medical emergency I'm actually really excited about the nine days of no pooping. Steve: Yeah. Steve: I'm also excited about that because we got to hear the word poop baby. Sammi: On national television and a truth box. Sammi: I'm like, all right, okay, cool. Sammi: This sounds great. Sammi: And then there's someone getting married in paradise, and it's probably like an already engaged couple that comes down, like, has happened before, I would assume. Sammi: And then they're like, oh, are Rachel and Brayden going to get together? Sammi: And I got very upset. Sammi: Oh, my God, you better not. Sammi: That sucks. Sammi: And I was looking through this Vulture recap. Sammi: It says, Brayden is here sitting right next to Rachel rechia. Sammi: Get a job. Sammi: Stay away from her et. Sammi: Wait, hold on. Sammi: Wait, what? Sammi: Hold on 1 second. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Sammi: How did I not know who Gabby was dating? Steve: Oh, yeah, so oh, my is this is something that I was hoping to bring up? Steve: Because I guess I'm dense and I didn't really understand or process or notice it, but it's like, oh, Gabby's dating a woman. Steve: I didn't know that. Sammi: H***. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Gabby. Steve: Good job, Gabby. Sammi: Yes. Steve: We love I had I had no idea. Steve: And then I was just like, who's that? Steve: I was, oh, that's so cute. Sammi: And she even posted, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Gabby ayo so that's awesome. Sammi: And now I want to rewatch the finale because I was tired and I did not even oh, apparently. Sammi: Okay, so she was on The View, and in an Instagram post yeah. Sammi: She wrote, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: And yeah. Sammi: So it's Robbie Hoffman. Steve: He's a comedian, right? Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Comedians. Sammi: You should know, apparently. Sammi: And yeah, this was announced on August 2, but I didn't see it because I don't pay attention to this stuff. Sammi: But that's super great. Sammi: And yeah, I'm so happy. Sammi: So one of the things that this Vulture article talks about is, uh, they wanted to see, like, a Robbie cam the whole time, mic her up and then let's the whole the whole gimmick of, like, who's the bachelor and who's going to date him. Sammi: And also, maybe Rachel likes Braden. Sammi: I was like, I can't handle all this stuff right now, okay? Sammi: I'm tired, and I want to know what's in that truth box, and I want to talk more about that poop baby. Sammi: Those are the things I want to talk about. Steve: Yeah. Steve: Very interested in a poop baby. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And then we find out. Sammi: September 20. Sammi: Eigth. Sammi: We're going to be playing double duty, so I don't know what we're going to do. Sammi: We'll have to see if we want to do extra long episodes or two separate Bachelor in paradise and Golden Bachelor episodes. Steve: We're going to figure it out. Sammi: We'll have to figure it out. Sammi: Stay tuned. Sammi: I'm thinking we'll do each one because some people might be interested in one and not the other. Sammi: Otherwise, we'll do, like, a little time stampy in the description. Sammi: So stay tuned for that, obviously. Sammi: Let's see. Sammi: Okay, so we have the last date with Don, and he's so sweet, and it was so cute, and he was like, I'm going to win over your mom. Sammi: Just don't even worry about it. Sammi: And it's like, he's a great guy. Sammi: He can definitely win over moms, so I totally believe that. Sammi: And his gift was very cute. Sammi: He was like, I made a treasure hunt, so how about that? Sammi: And I was like, that's pretty cute. Sammi: And he was like, here's my card, my resident alien card, like the s'mores and little memories of events that they did on their dates. Sammi: And then at the end, it was a locket with their baby faces. Sammi: And he's like, you are my treasure. Sammi: And that was very then. Sammi: But the thing that's weird is we see her. Sammi: Yeah, they really freaking tricked me because she's, like, bringing up Joey on this date, and he says, I love you, and she doesn't say it back. Sammi: And I was like, okay. Sammi: Then we get the Neil Lane scene, which wasn't like, that excessive this time. Sammi: Sometimes it's like, really long Neil Lane stuff. Steve: It's always weird to me because I feel like sometimes we get a lot of Neil Lane the man, and not just Neil Lane, the know, and other times you don't see Neil at. Steve: And this this was a Neil appearance season. Sammi: Yeah, it was a Neil appearance, but it was not as major. Sammi: I mean, usually I would say with The Bachelor, Neil is around more, but he was in the audience. Steve: It's just so funny to me because I'm sure in the jewelry world, he's a big deal, but if you're like, who's Neil Lane? Steve: I'm like, oh, that's the guy who gives the rings on The Bachelor. Sammi: I actually think that is the biggest deal. Sammi: Well, I think but I don't know. Sammi: Let's see if we can figure this out. Sammi: Hold on. Sammi: I feel like I looked this up before, and it was kind of like I thought that that was kind of the biggest thing. Sammi: I thought his name recognition did get bigger because of The Bachelor, and that propelled some of his career. Sammi: Oh, here we go. Sammi: Here we go. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: Reddit is all over. Steve: Always. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: But yeah, okay. Sammi: Apparently oh, interesting. Sammi: He turned them down for a while, and he doesn't watch The Bachelor, which I think we found out recently that he didn't watch The Bachelor, which I think is very funny. Sammi: So it's like his only frame of reference is getting flown in for these moments and these live appearances, and that's it. Sammi: And he doesn't watch the show. Sammi: That's kind of awesome. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So someone said, okay, yeah, I think it's kind of like a Vera Wang type of thing at this point, you. Steve: Know what I mean? Sammi: Where it's like there is a prestige brand and then you can also go to Kohl's. Steve: Exactly. Sammi: You know what I mean? Sammi: I think it was kind of like and yeah, someone said, I went into Kate and his rings are ugly. Sammi: Lol. Sammi: I'm sorry. Sammi: Yeah, it's like, if you're going to get Neil Lane from K, I would assume that that's not the same as the other stuff he yeah, yeah. Steve: I would imagine he's got his higher tier stuff. Steve: I like the Vera Wang comparison. Sammi: That's the way I kind of always thought about Neil Lane. Sammi: And from these comments on Reddit, that's the impression I'm getting. Sammi: As I say about Kay, every kiss begins at the mall. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And apparently oh, gosh, I didn't even realize that. Sammi: So this was like 2009. Sammi: Neil Lane feels so omnipresent that I did not realize it's only been Neil Lane for like, 14 years. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Yeah. Steve: Before that he was day one guy. Sammi: I know. Sammi: Before that it was Harry Winston. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: There's a comment on Reddit that says, in the industry, neil Lane is considered to be a little goblin character. Sammi: And someone said, how so? Sammi: And then there's like some deleted stuff, so I don't know about that. Sammi: Anyway, yeah, someone said, okay, yeah. Sammi: Neil Lane for Celebs is high end. Sammi: Neil Lane at K is mediocre. Sammi: Yeah, same as Verawing. Sammi: I would yeah. Sammi: Very interesting. Sammi: He used to design customs for A list celebrities like Barbara Streisand, Elizabeth Taylor, and Angelina Jolie. Sammi: Interesting. Sammi: He's like mid tier, they say. Steve: Oh, man. Steve: You hear that? Steve: Neil Lane. Steve: You're just mid, baby. Sammi: You're mid. Sammi: You're mid, Neil. Sammi: Well, he's never going to listen to this. Sammi: He doesn't watch the show. Sammi: He's not going to listen to a random sorry, Neil, but yeah. Sammi: So very interesting. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So we had a Neil Lane scene, and then Charity comes out in her dress and I started tearing up. Sammi: So again, I was tired, but I don't know, this finale really did a number on me. Sammi: And then she started to cry or almost cried. Sammi: And I was like, don't cry. Sammi: Your makeup's so pretty. Sammi: And then as soon as Joey gets out of the car, my stomach dropped and so do the audiences. Sammi: And I was like, you tricked me. Sammi: You tricked me, you tricked me. Sammi: And I was like, well, he's going to be a great bachelor. Sammi: And I cried so much during this whole interaction. Sammi: It was awful. Sammi: I was like, not okay. Steve: So emotion. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The dogs came over. Sammi: They were like, do you need some support? Sammi: And I was like, I am not. Sammi: And like, Tuck was sleeping, obviously. Sammi: Well, this was like yeah, because this was in the morning by the time I watched this. Sammi: But he was like, in the other room with the dogs, and I'm like, crying. Sammi: And they come over and they're like, what do you need, mom? Sammi: And I was like, I am just not okay. Sammi: But what was really sweet was she did not cut him off, which was nice because I feel like a lot of the times the bacheloretes cut the men off. Sammi: Don't propose yet, but he kind of waited for a second anyway, like, should I keep going? Sammi: And then she did a little I thought it was nice that she had a speech for him because I don't feel like they always do that or it doesn't feel prepared or whatever. Sammi: And he was just like, It's okay. Sammi: He knew it was hard, and she's trying to get all this out, and she's upset. Sammi: And he was like, It's okay. Sammi: And she's like, Well, I got to do this. Sammi: I want to do the whole thing. Sammi: I want you to hear this whole thing. Sammi: It's important to me. Sammi: And then she's like, I found love that's deeper with someone else, and I'm crying. Sammi: I think she wins for the best goodbye speech ever to yeah, I was just, like, a f** mess. Sammi: And then Joey's in the audience, and then he gives the best bachelor audition in the car, and the audience is silent, and I'm just is really this is really great. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: That whole moment was really awesome. Sammi: And then Zach's in the right, so, like, they go through this whole thing. Sammi: Like, Joey leaves, he's in the car, whatever, and at some point they pan to Zach, and I'm like, God, both of these guys are so much better than Zach. Sammi: And so really, there wasn't a bad direction for her to go, I don't think. Sammi: It's like she's just got to decide how she feels, and she's got to make that choice, which is always nice. Steve: Too, because sometimes I'm like, no, not him, and this time you're good. Steve: Anybody's fine. Steve: Well, not Aaron. Steve: And even Aaron. Steve: There's nothing wrong with him. Sammi: With Aaron. Sammi: If she liked Aaron the most, I'd be like, that's fine. Steve: That's okay. Steve: Some people have no taste, but that's all you. Steve: You do. Steve: You it's not harmful. Sammi: That just reminded me of I don't know why. Sammi: I'm, like, thinking about classic York. Sammi: Like, even Louis Vuitton makes so Joey is going to see Charity now. Sammi: He gives his little spiel with Jessie. Sammi: It's like all kind of the normal the. Sammi: I've done a lot of thinking and healing, and I'm on the other side, and I understand, and I just love and support her, and I just want her to be happy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And this is, like one of the most amicable reuniting moments, too, that I remember on the show, where it's just like, she looks sparkly and beautiful, and he's, like, giving her the biggest hug, and it was really sweet. Sammi: And he's still kind of, you can tell, emotional about it. Sammi: He's getting all twisty faced about it. Sammi: He's like, AW, shucks OD golly g whiz whatever. Sammi: They made him very likable. Sammi: They did a really good job because I was, like, a mess, and it was good, and then it's like, okay, now it's time for Dotton. Sammi: And I was so emotional about the Joey thing. Sammi: I was just kind of like, well, I knew this was going to happen, they tricked me, now I feel indignant and this all turned out just fine. Sammi: I think what it is, is they are both very comfortable with each other and that's like what you need for a normal relationship. Sammi: You should feel very comfortable with each other. Sammi: And so I think the familiarity is good here. Sammi: And it didn't feel like this with her and Joey. Sammi: I feel like it's a little more I don't know, there was more chemistry and an explosive exciting way. Sammi: But with her and Datten, it just feels very safe and comfortable in a very good way. Sammi: That's important. Steve: Yeah, she made the right call and it's the difference between maybe a sprint and a marathon here. Steve: And it's not to say that both these men would have provided her with plenty of happiness, but I think Datten is probably the better choice for something that you see as a long term relationship. Steve: And Charity was super smart about it and she dumped Joey in the best way possible. Steve: I don't know how she does it. Steve: It exceeds even the abilities of the editing on The Bachelor and the just she's got it down. Sammi: She handled everything perfectly the whole season. Sammi: I feel like we've watched so many seasons of Bachelors and Bacheloretes kind of like step in it and yeah, not a single flub. Sammi: Perfect season. Steve: It's kind of mind boggling, too, because it can be so stressful and emotional and god, breakups are f** messy. Steve: They're so messy. Steve: And the fact that she was able to not only every single guy leading up to Joey and those are probably easier because some of those guys were you get you get down to Joey who is a man that you could probably marry and probably be pretty happy with and to just let him down like that, it was like a master class. Steve: It was incredible. Steve: Never seen anything like ten out of ten. Sammi: Charity, yeah, she's extremely emotionally mature. Sammi: This is obvious, we know this. Sammi: And yeah, she did awesome. Sammi: Chef's kiss. Sammi: What a great season. Sammi: Very happy about it. Sammi: I thought it was really cute at the end that they showed that she was standing on a box. Sammi: I thought that was adorable. Sammi: I love little behind the scenes things like that. Sammi: And she's like, yeah, love just makes you so happy. Sammi: You get taller and then they just show the box. Sammi: I was like, that's adorable. Sammi: They're just very cute together. Sammi: And yeah, he can keep her safe from lizards or whatever. Sammi: It's good. Sammi: And his family is like, that's like winning the Jackpot. Sammi: They're a really cool family. Sammi: That's one of the best families I've ever seen be on the show. Sammi: And his mom being someone who's really hard to win over and going, yeah, you're my family now. Sammi: And Grandma being like, these two are joined at the soul, or whatever the h*** she said. Sammi: I'm like, yeah, I mean, I just feel like you can't get better than that. Sammi: As long as you like the family and you like him, you're in. Sammi: That's very easy. Sammi: Then some life coach started talking, and I was like, oh, god, I need food. Sammi: I need breakfast, because it was late in the day, and I just did not want to hear this. Sammi: Life coach chuck. Sammi: And then this was like one of the people. Sammi: I was like, are you going to date the bears? Sammi: And then mom we get to see charity's mom, and they're like, okay, how are you feeling? Sammi: She's like, I'm happy now. Sammi: Yeah, he's good. Sammi: I like him. Sammi: He's pretty good. Sammi: Or was. Sammi: She wasn't like, oh, my god, he's the like, yeah, I really like him. Sammi: I think at some point and again, I was tired. Sammi: Didn't we see Danton's family and his mom in the audience getting emotional over everything? Steve: I thought this audience was they were put through the wringer. Steve: I'm pretty sure they were there, too, but yeah, everyone was super emotion, including datten's people. Sammi: I was so emotional, I just stopped paying attention. Sammi: Yeah, it was so then and then she shows off her find that, personally, this is just personal. Sammi: I find the rings kind of boring. Sammi: They're just like one big rock. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: But I'm glad she likes it. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: This was interesting. Sammi: Do you think they're going to shoot the golden bachelor different the whole time? Sammi: Do you think the style of shooting is going to be different? Sammi: Because did you notice how soft they made it and the camera work was all different. Sammi: Is it just for the promo, you think, or what do you think? Steve: I think that is just for the promo, but it definitely has a softer, different look to it. Steve: It's almost like soap opera esque in its presentation, which I guess is appropriate. Steve: It is somewhat reminiscent of very early seasons of the bachelor. Steve: So if you go back to the first three seasons yeah. Sammi: Where it's like a little more like romanticy. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And I don't know if that is intentional or if I'm just like my brain has been permanently poisoned by watching the show for so many years. Steve: But I think based on the previews alone, it looks like it's going to have a slightly different aesthetic, and I am perfectly fine and open with that. Steve: Because if there's one thing that you can criticize about the Bachelor and honestly don't make it one thing, make it a million things, because there's plenty. Steve: But if there's one thing you can consistently criticize, is that they recycle the same ideas and visual cues and everything over and over and over and over again, so anything that can push them out of their comfort zone. Steve: And I do think that old people are going to help with this because, oh, my god, the kinds of problems and emotional issues and things that they're going to have to deal with are going to be totally different from the normal crap that comes up on the bachelor to bachelorette. Steve: And when it's not different, when it's like, oh, and so and so has an 80 year old husband back home, that's going to be even funnier and crazier, so bring it on. Steve: I'm here for it, whatever it is. Sammi: So and so has an 80 year old husband back home. Sammi: I like that idea. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm kind of wondering if it's going to be messy in any way or if it is just going to be kind of like sweet and sentimental the whole time. Steve: I hope not. Sammi: I know you hope not, but I'm just kind of like not totally sure anymore. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm interested to see what happens. Sammi: We don't have to wait super long. Sammi: We've got about a month and you'll hear from us at least one time in between then. Sammi: Do you think they're going to let the dog stay with him? Sammi: Because that dog is obsessed. Sammi: That was the cutest dog. Sammi: Oh, my god, don't tell me. Steve: In my heart, yes, but in reality, I think they're probably going to have. Sammi: To say no because who had their dog? Sammi: One of the bachelorettes, right. Sammi: Had their dog with them or bachelors. Steve: It just seems like a nightmare, like all the traveling they do and it's just stressful for the dog, too. Sammi: I think it was just domestic. Sammi: Do you remember wait, hold on. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: Golly, I don't remember. Sammi: There was one now. Sammi: I just found the rambo thing, but yeah, there was one where it was like, oh, my dog came with me. Sammi: Do you remember talking about anyway, whatever. Steve: Well, rachel lindsay's dog cooper appeared alongside her on the Bachelorete season 13. Sammi: I just tried to that's what it was. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: God, I mean, so much happened on rachel's season. Sammi: I forgot it was yeah. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Steve: I had tried to forget rambo dog guy, but unfortunately rambo dog guy has now been brought back into my memory bank. Steve: So thank you, Sammi. Sammi: Yeah, I think it was just local, right? Sammi: It was just like when they were in the states, the dog was there, so I was just like, maybe that would be a thing that would happen again. Sammi: Because that was very cute and I really liked that. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: And then, okay, so there's no set date. Sammi: So we see charity and Dotton and of mean, I don't think there's ever at least I don't remember in the history of the show them being like, oh, and it's probably, are joe and serena married yet? Sammi: Because otherwise they'll be the ones I. Steve: Don'T know if they're married, but they did a commercial for concealer or something together. Sammi: They've been doing that a lot. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Mark my words, they're going to be the couple in paradise that gets married. Steve: It seems. Steve: So their star is rising. Steve: Grocery store joe is the international commercial superstar. Steve: Honestly, grocery store joe, you're acting in these commercials. Steve: You got speaking lines. Steve: Are you SAG brother? Steve: Like, should you be on the picket line? Steve: Maybe, I don't know. Sammi: Oh, interesting. Sammi: Didn't think about that. Sammi: Anyway, so yeah, I think they're going to get married in paradise. Sammi: That's my I don't I can't remember any time where they're like, oh, yeah, we have a set know. Sammi: But they're like, we're enjoying the season of our she's going they're going to Greece. Sammi: She's always wanted to go to Greece. Sammi: And so she's going to get to go to Greece, which is sweet. Sammi: And then she's also going to be on Dancing with the Stars, which is like not shocking but cool. Sammi: And then Joey gets announced as the new bachelor and we kind of knew that. Sammi: And the first woman that we meet who lives on Oahu or well, she moved to La. Sammi: But she's from Oahu. Sammi: She's joining Joey. Sammi: And then yeah, so they're excited. Sammi: But then she gets an envelope. Sammi: It's not a date card, but we don't know what it is until night one. Sammi: And that's as much surprise as they can know because Jesse is like, well, you've never seen anything like this. Sammi: And I'm like, this is like a pretty normal season. Sammi: But you were like, we're going to give you a trip so we can say it was a surprise. Sammi: We're not going to tell you about Dancing with the Stars until here. Sammi: So it's a surprise. Sammi: Charity has got to be getting tired of surprises at this point because they also surprise her with a Bachelorete. Steve: Remember that's the theme for her series. Sammi: She's like, okay, here it goes. Steve: Boys under pressure. Steve: The charity story. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I mean, for real. Sammi: She's like always handles surprises well but I don't know if she actually likes them. Sammi: We'll see. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: I'm looking through to see if there's anything else I missed. Sammi: That was kind of the big stuff. Sammi: I don't feel like there was just not a lot to say. Sammi: Somehow we filled 45 minutes, but there wasn't a lot to say about this episode except I cried a lot and it was good. Sammi: And I'm excited for the Golden Bachelor. Sammi: I'm excited for Bachelor in paradise and I'm excited for Joey being the bachelor. Sammi: And that's fun because when's the last time I got excited about a bachelor? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: It's been a really long time. Steve: Yeah, it's been a while. Steve: But yeah. Steve: Kudos to production for, again, taking a foregone conclusion, making it dramatic and selling me on someone that I thought was fine but boring. Steve: So just high marks all around. Steve: Charity's great. Steve: Everything's great. Steve: Sammi stayed up too late, got super emotional. Steve: It's okay. Steve: Nothing wrong with that. Steve: There's nothing wrong with it. Sammi: I'm excited all of you. Sammi: I did it for all of you. Sammi: And then we got home last night at like 10:00 and I mentioned this off recording. Sammi: We played pinball until I don't know. Sammi: This is a problem. Sammi: We played pinball until bar closed and so, yeah, my mind's kind of fresh, but I'm just coming off vacation, so if I repeated myself a lot, you knew what you were getting into. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: You knew what this was also. Sammi: You're welcome. Sammi: I hope you got your dishes done or got to your workplace or cleaned your office or whatever it is you're doing right now. Sammi: And I'm so excited. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The jilly box has made it through customs. Sammi: It should be here in a day or two. Sammi: And the grand reveal is coming soon, so you'll get to enjoy that shortly. Sammi: And it'll be a nice break. Sammi: Hopefully we can get it done before school starts. Sammi: And then once I'm in the swing of things for school, we'll have the golden bachelor and bachelor in paradise to record. Steve: Love. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: If you want to see my slow decline into madness, come back on or before the last week of September, and I'm sure that's what you're going to get to see. Steve: That's right. Steve: We're making q four. Steve: Every month of Q four is mental health awareness month on our podcast. Sammi: It's going to be like, why did I decide to do biostatistics and biochemistry in the same semester? Sammi: Why? Sammi: Anyway, so take care of yourselves, friends. Sammi: Take care of each other if you haven't had a chance. Sammi: I mean, we are in the last moments of summer. Sammi: I know a lot of us had a heat wave recently. Sammi: At least here it's broken. Sammi: Make sure you're getting outside. Sammi: Enjoy that weather. Sammi: Go for a nice long walk. Sammi: That's what I'm about to do when I get off of here and make jam as well. Sammi: And, yeah, just enjoy those last moments that you have before it gets cold and dark, if you're in a part of the world where that happens. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And you know what? Steve: I'm going down to the lake as soon as this call is done. Steve: I'm going to walk around. Steve: I'm going to probably eat a snack. Steve: I'm going to watch the sunset. Steve: It's going to be beautiful. Steve: You know what I'm not going to do? Steve: I'm not going to do needle drugs, because you shouldn't do needle drugs. Steve: Don't do needle drugs. Steve: You got to hit them with the triple because they going to hear from us for a little while. Sammi: We'll be back with a jilly box. Steve: And a double bachelor experience. Steve: Oh, lordy.

An international commercial airline pilot who, after the tragedies of 9/11, was forced to realize that his “Safe and Secure career” was nowhere near as safe and secure as he had thought. Steve Rozenberg chose real estate investing to be able to control his own destiny and create his own generational wealth. He created the fastest-growing property management company in the state of Texas. Managing over 1,000 properties across 3 major metropolitan cities. Steve built the business up and created maximum cash flow positioning his company for a very profitable exit.   He has been a guest and collaborated on countless panels, webinars, masterminds, conferences, and podcasts as well as being a published author. In today's episode, he shares his story, how he began real estate investing, and how important your mindset is to be successful in this business.   Episode Link: https://steverozenberg.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Steve Rozenberg, who's an airline pilot and entrepreneur, and he's gonna be talking to us about the mental mind shifts we as investors need to make in order to scale and have successful businesses. So let's get into it.   Steve, what is going on, man? Thanks so much for taking the time to come hang out with me today. I appreciate it.   Steve: What's happening, fellas, good to see you.   Michael: Oh, super good to see you, Steve. I am super excited to share with our listeners a little bit about you and your background, because I know a little bit about it. But for anyone who doesn't know who Steve Rozenberg is, bring us up to speed quick and dirty. Who you are, where you come from, what is it you're doing in real estate today?   Steve: Sure. So I live in Houston, Texas, born and raised in Los Angeles, actually, my career brought me out here and that careers, what got me kind of involved in being a real estate and being an entrepreneur. I'm an airline pilot by trade and I got hired at 25 years old. I was the second youngest person ever hired by this particular major airline and hired at 25, I had the best job in the world is flying all over the globe. I was 25 years old and it was the most safe, most secure job that anyone could imagine having. Until a certain day in history. That day was 9/11 and that day changed my life, it changed a lot of people's lives. It changed my life because on 9/13, two days after 9/11 in the towers fell, I got delivered a furlough notice and I was basically told, hey, Steve, you know what that safe, secure job that you thought you had, it was never safe and it was really never secure and you're about to be on the street with 50,000 other pilots.   So to say that I got punched in the face very, very hard within about 48 hours would be an understatement and it was it was rough. You know I always I ever want to do as a kid is be an airline pilot. I didn't want to do anything else. I was fulfilling my dream and this something happened, which I realized it had nothing to do with me but it affected me. You know, I didn't I wasn't a part of 9/11 but I was a repercussion, a ripple effect, if you will and so I started to talk about what I could do, what could I do? What to survive to make a paycheck, right? All I knew was to be a pilot, but there was many, many other pilots out there probably better pilots than me to be honest with you that you know, we're also on the street and I looked and I saw that everyone that was tied to wealth somehow was tied to real estate. I didn't know anything about real estate, but I was like, okay, I mean, I knew some pilots who had rental properties, but I didn't know much about it. So this is 2001. So there was no YouTube or Facebook. So I had to go to the library. I had to get a library card.   Michael: A lot of our listeners are probably asking, like, what is that?   Steve: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a big house with a lot of books and so I had to start learning about real estate, I read a book a week and I just I read everything I could, because I thought that I was behind the curve of figuring out what I was going to do with this airline thing. If there was another terrorist attack or something happened, I was gonna be out of work and so I learned all the different things you know, now it's very cliche, you know, burrs and all this other stuff. But I just I learned how to buy I learned how to flip I learned how to wholesale properties. I got lied to, I got ripped off, I got cheated on. I mean, you name it, I just kept getting pushed down face down in the mud every time. But I kept getting back up because I had to I didn't I didn't have a choice. I had to figure out this combination and I, I saw people that were successful. So I was like, okay, there's a recipe. I just don't know it. But I can think like, I'm not the dumbest guy in the world. But I could figure this out and then I started getting better and I started winning a little bit more than I was losing and I started figuring out and what I realized was communicators are actually the ones that are the most successful, not the contractors.   It's four walls in a roof. It's relationship driven. It's not anything else and that relationship is driven by business models, and it's driven by systems and so I started realizing that the four walls and a roof and the dirt really had nothing to do with being a real estate investor. The successful people were good communicators, and they understood the value of leverage and team and then I started looking back at my real estate in my airline career and I started looking at how airlines run and I was like okay, systems, procedures structure and I kind of started melding the two and that led me into start learning to become successful as with my, my old business partner, Pete Newberg, who has been on your show, he and I built a very, very successful property management company, by understanding how to leverage those models and how to leverage systemization and then I've gone on to do a lot of other things, coaching people working with people, helping people understand the systemization of a business is very fundamental to be successful, is what I've learned and that's what I help people with.   Michael: I love that and we're gonna get into a little bit more of the systemization here in a minute. But for anyone listening, it's like, well, Steve, Michael, I'm not an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert, I'm more of an insert inside kind of person, like, Am I just doomed to never be a real estate investor like, what should I be doing if that's me?   Steve: So that's a good question because a lot of people you know, are a lot of people that go into real estate, what I've learned is they're running away from a life or job that they don't want you when you talk to real estate investors, and I coach a lot of real estate investors all over the world and when I talk to them, I'll ask them, why are you doing this, and a lot of them will tell me, I don't want this, I don't want that. They're running away from something and what they're running away from is a life that they don't want to have. Unfortunately, when you're running away from something you don't want, that's what you're focused on, and you run right back into it. I mean, that's the cycle, right because that's your filter. But what I've learned is, you don't have to be the best communicator, but you have to have good communicators on your team. There's things that I am really, really good at and there are things that I am horrible at. It's a matter of understanding, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses, I don't think that I should become like, that's just my opinion. I don't think it makes sense to work on my weaknesses. I don't know anything about accounting, I would make a company go bankrupt if I started doing the accounting books for my business. So why should I go and take two year courses at a junior college to learn how to do books, or I just hire someone and that's what they do. So I've taken my weakness, and I've actually turned it into a strength because now I don't have to think about it, I don't have to focus on it. I have someone in place that is run by KPIs and metrics and accountability and I just, I just parceled, that whole piece of my life off.   So to answer your question, I don't think you have to be good at that. A business needs it like my business partner, Pete. He was the integrator and I was the visionary. I was the forward guy, I was the guy out in front. But I sucked at the operational side, he was like the mushroom in the in the back room and, you know, my job was to break his business all the time. It's like I wanted to have so much sales and marketing coming in, that he would go Steve, I can't take it anymore and that was like my victory lap of showing. That's the that's the sales and marketing tug of war that goes on, right and so I don't think that you have to be good at everything because the reality is, is you're not, you're probably good at one thing and you suck at everything else that you do. It's a matter of identifying what am I good at? What am I not good at leveraging out those other things and focusing on that one thing to be the very best that you can be and if you can do that, you will help the business, the organization and you'll be much happier too.   Michael: I think yeah, I think it makes a ton a ton a ton a ton of sense. So talk to Steve about like, you got three to five properties, you're looking at scaling up, you're realizing maybe a little bit more and more, you're self-managing, hey, this might be more of a job than I was anticipating I'm trying to get out of a job that people what are some systems people should be putting in place and how should they be thinking about systemization if that's a new term for them, that's never something they've done before?   Steve: Yeah, that's a great question and let, I'm going to back it up a little bit if it's okay, because a lot of people, if they have three to five properties, and I get a lot of people that will call me and ask me that question like, hey, Steve, you know, if I'm in front of them, they'll put a deal like three inches from my face and they're like, hey, is this a good deal like being closer makes it more sense? I don't know. But they'll put this right to my face and they're like, is this a good deal? Well, I don't know what a good deal is for you. So first question is, what's the goal, right? What is the date of that goal? So if they don't know the goal, and they don't have a date, and a timeline and a way to achieve that goal, I can't tell them what to do. I can't give them directions. It's kind of like if you said, hey, Steve, we're all gonna go to Disneyland and we got to be at the front gates at 8am on Friday morning and we're going to leave our house at 6am and we're going to take the 405 to the 91. Get off on Disney drive, and we're gonna go into the gates to be there ready to go. Well, if along that way, you get lost, you're gonna pull over and you're gonna go, hey, Steve, can I get directions? What's the first thing I'm going to ask you? Where are you? Where are you going? If you say, I don't know, I'm just driving around today, I'm gonna go with it. I can't help you, because I don't know where you're trying to get to. So if you take that same analogy, many people buy properties. They don't have a goal. So they say, should I buy more properties? My question is, is I don't know what's the goal? Because, you know, many people, you know, they think that owning rentals is the goal. That's just the strategy to achieve the goal. That's like saying, I'm going to get on the 405 freeway and you're going, where are you going? I don't know, I'm just gonna get on the freeway and drive and the reason I know that is when Pete and I first started buying properties, that's what we did. We were just buying properties and we're going the wrong way, in the wrong direction at a very, very fast pace and nobody stopped us to say, where are you guys going because we're just driving. We're like, we're making great time. Unfortunately, we're going in the wrong way. So to answer your question, to going back to what you're saying about systemization, every business normally has about eight to 11 systems in their business, it's a matter of looking at what you do and systemizing everything. So if you took a system and put it in a vertical, let's just say when you're going to rent a property, what is the system that it takes to rent that property, you've got to basically first thing you've got to do is maybe the first trigger of that system is when the Make ready is done. Now the property is in rent ready condition, it now triggers this system to happen. What's the first thing you got to do? Well, maybe you've got to go and take pictures and video of the property. Step one, what's the next thing you got to do? Well, then you've got to do some comps and check out the area and see what the property is renting for. That's step two. So you're going through and you're just basically talking to me, like I'm a three year old or third grader and you're explaining to me in very painstaking detail, what you're doing. These are all steps in the process of a systemization. Once you create the system all the way through to getting the property rented, once the property is rented, that system is complete. Maybe that system is 19 steps, right? Then you look at that system and go okay, is this the most efficient way to run this system, does or is there any redundancy? Is there any things that we don't even do or should not do? Are we missing some things? Now, let's say for example, this person, he, let's just say he grows and he gets an employee to do these tasks, right and or he subs it out to a company. This company needs to know very, very clearly what they're doing because the definition like look, I think we can all agree that when you own one business, or you own 50 businesses, which are rental properties, those are businesses, that you've got to treat it like a business, right? The challenge is, most people don't they don't have any systems that don't have any structure and it's chaos, which is why so many landlords get sued, because there's no systemization or standardization, meaning how you lease a property. When you're in the airlines, right, we'll go back to being an airline pilot, if I'm an airline pilot, and I came out and said, hey, everyone, this is gonna be a great day today. We're off to Hawaii. This is my first time ever doing this. So wish me luck. I'm just gonna wing it and hopefully we make it there. How would you feel?   Michael: Yeah, a little bit shaky.   Steve: Right but yeah, you'd probably be like, I'm not getting on this plane. Yeah, but that's what many people do with their rental properties and they're doing that with their financial lives, right? This is your real life, you're trusting me with your life but you don't do that with your financial life. So there's a disconnect as to the training and, and the way that you can scale because if you have to do everything in your business, you don't own a business, you own a job and a job is not scalable, because you have only so many hours in the day, and you have so much knowledge of what you're good at and what you're bad at. So I don't know if that answered the question but there's, that's a very hard thing to unpack.   Michael: No, it totally does. It totally does. Two things. First thing is I think you must be having been out of LA for a long time, because your analogy you're talking about getting on the 405 Dizzy land, you leave by six get there by eight. There's no world in which that happens today. Yeah, first and foremost. But secondly, so like, how does someone make that mindset shift because I think so many of us and specifically, it seems to be pretty pervasive in the real estate world, this DIY mentality, you know, I do it myself, do it myself, do it myself. How does, how do you make that mental leap of, okay, I'm going from doing it myself, small business owner to hiring someone or contracting it out or putting it to somebody else so I can get out of my own way?   Steve: Sure. Well, there's a couple things. Number one, you've got to you have to be willing to let go of your ego and pride, right? Because ego and pride are success inhibitors, they will kill your success quicker than anything. I should do it because I'm in charge, right and so let's go back to the goal, right? If I said, hey, what's your goal and you didn't, you didn't and this is what I use this example when I coach people, I'll tell them, okay, let's just use this as an example. I call it a 2020 2020 properties in 20 years, giving you $20,000 a month in passive income. It's a bait. It's a goal, right? Yeah, it's, it's got a time limit on it. It's something that we can attach an actual goal to and we know how we're going to achieve that goal because we have a scoreboard to see if we've made that. So that means that each property needs to be giving off $1,000 a month in passive income to get 20 properties give me $20,000 a month. Okay, that means, okay, so let we're gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer your question in a roundabout way, we've got to say, Okay, if we want to have 20 properties, that means by year 10, we have to have acquired all those properties so that from year 10, to your 20, we're going to pay those properties off, because we want them free and clear by your 20. That means between year one and year 10, we have to purchase 20 properties, which means we have to close on two properties a year, which is every six months, which means every three months, we have to be looking for deals.   My first question is, is do you have the finances to even make this happen? Do you have the do you have the financial means to achieve this goal? If they say I don't have a job, I'm gonna go well, then we're done talking because first thing you need is the financial means to make that happen. That's number one. Then we say okay, when you achieve the goal of 20 20 20, right, and we get to where we want to go, what I have learned and what many people I'm sure some people will learn, it's not a bad thing to learn. But a lot of people identify success by their accolades, meaning how much money they have in the bank, or how many properties they have, how many doors whatever they want to whatever they want to use as their gauge. That's how they quantify their success, or lack thereof. Now, I had Pete and I had a very successful property management company that we sold to a venture capital much larger firm and I can tell you that when you get that money in the bank, it is very, very, very anticlimactic. Like I mean, literally, like after we sold our company, and we sold it for well into seven figures, all of a sudden, I thought I'm done, like, oh, this is awesome. Now, mind you, I still am an airline pilot this whole time. So I'm okay financially but I thought, man, if I just if we sell this company, we're good. You don't happen Monday morning, after we sold the company?   Michael: You put on your uniform and go fly a plane.   Steve: My wife said, hey, don't forget, take the trash out the trash bin or come and I'm like, when I sold the company, like I sold my goods just like, don't give a shit. Take the trash out. So, but the point is, is like all of a sudden you think you're in some magic club like you think you break through this glass ceiling and the reality is, is nobody cares and the reason I'm saying the reason I'm going somewhere with this is that we think that once we achieve a mark or a goal that's going to make our lives complete and sadly, it doesn't, it actually makes it more hollow because you realize, like, wow, I've been doing this all these years, and nobody even cares. Like they're, you know, everyone's moving on. So what I always tell people when I talked to when I told you earlier that a lot of entrepreneurs, they buy real estate, and people want to get involved in real estate and I asked them why they say I want more freedom, right? I'm sure you've probably heard this, I want anytime freedom, do what I want, blah, blah, blah, they use this word freedom, like it means something special to them. I tell them okay, well, let me ask you this, why don't you just sell all your shit today, go live in your car at the park, and you'll have all the freedom you need. No one will bother you, you'll have your freedom. They think about that I'm like, but you know, what you won't have is you won't have the memories that you want associated with that freedom.   So we're really not buying freedom. What we're buying is memories. So when I sell a business, or I have rental properties, giving me cash flow, what am I doing with that cash flow, it's giving me the ability to have freedom to go buy the memories. It's the memories we want. So going back to your question, how does somebody step out of what they want? I would first ask them, what memories do you want to buy because at the end of the day, we're not leaving, we're not leaving this earth with anything except our memories, right? When we go when our when our expiration date happens. We're not going anywhere, except with memories in our brains. What memories do you want, right in the real estate, and the cash flow or whatever you're doing with that will give you the means to buy those memories. So buy the memories don't buy the time is you go to prison and have all the free time you want. You may not like the result, but you'll have free time by the memories, right? Go to you know, have dinner on the Mediterranean in Greece, right? Go to this African Safari, the Rolling Stones in Wembley Stadium. Those are the memories that you want and that's what real estate gives you. So going back to your question when someone says, hey, like, you know, how do I get out of it? I'm like, what memories do you want? Do you want to be an employee? That's trading time for money because that's what you're doing? I'll give you an example. So my son, he bought a rental property at 14 years old. Okay and everyone's like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah and he bought it with his money, you know and so everyone's like, man, that's awesome. That's great. Like, did you have him do the rehab and clean the house and I'm like, No. Why would I do that? They're like, so he can learn. I'm like, I don't do that. Why should I make him do that? That's being a hypocrite. I want him to be a business owner, not an employee. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with being an employee but that's that that is not the goal of one rental property like, hey, congratulations, you want a rental property? Now go learn how to cut wood lay tile, put it insulation but dad, you don't do that. I wouldn't even know how to do that. Like, again, working on strengths versus weaknesses, right? People seem like when they get a rental property that like, all of a sudden, I've got to learn how to put a toilet in and I gotta get up on the roof and inspect it. I'm like, have you ever done that before? No and I'm like, Well, then why in the heck would you get up on a roof? If you didn't know what you're doing like this is how you become a statistic. But we think we should because of ego and pride. So that's kind of a long answer but that's my answer.   Michael: I love it, I love it a great answer. Steve, great answer. Talk to us a little bit about, like, the qualities and what you see really successful people do who are able to implement systematization like what like, what skills should people be go out there and refining in order to be able to execute here really, really well?   Steve: Well, yeah, that's a great question and I've studied a lot of very successful people. I've been coached and mentored by some very successful people and I'm a constant student, I still a mentor to this day. Anyone who says that they don't need to be coached, and they don't need to be mentored, is missing out on a lot of opportunity. I look at Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, these guys are at the top of their game, and they still have coaches and mentors. All professional athletes have coaches, you don't become a professional athlete, and then lose the coaches. They make you better.   Michael: So I'm done.   Steve: Yeah, it's like I'm done. Um, you know, even Kobe Bryant, I mean, everyone, they all have coaches. I mean, that's how it works, right? Right, it's brings the best thing out of you. So number one, I think you always have to have somebody holding you accountable and if you look at all successful people, they have accountability. They have somebody holding them accountable in somebody, you know, a three feet distance is a world of perspective, right? In the simulators. When we find the simulators and we're practicing engine failures and all these things. The simulator instructor is about three feet behind us the control panel, and we joke and he they know, they're like, yeah, I'm the smartest guy in here because I'm three feet behind you, I can see all the mistakes you guys are making. You don't see it, because you're in the heat of battle. He's like, I can see it coming a mile away. I'm the smartest guy in the room. So having somebody three feet away, is a world of perspective, having an organization help give you guidance to when you're looking to acquire a property that's giving you that three feet difference. That's a world of difference, right? So, there is a recipe for success and I'm a firm believer. If you look at all successful people, they follow a very simple recipe. It's not magic, people who are failures, they follow a recipe also and I think that every day that you wake up every day that we all wake up, we have a decision to make. It's very simple. Am I going to be better than yesterday or am I going to be worse than that, initially, is our decision that we make every day because you're not good, you're they're getting better. You're getting worse, we never stay the same ever and so when you wake up in the morning, what is the decision you're gonna make? Are you going to do any reading? Are you going to do any I'm statements? What are you going to do to focus on solution based questions slash trying to be better or are you going to be in blame excuse or denial? So going back to your question, I think that people that if you want to learn how to become better at systemization, then talk to someone who knows what they're doing and that can help you become a systems expert because, look, as an airline pilot, right? I've been I've been flying for almost 30 years, I've been trained by Boeing, I fly one of the most complicated aircraft out there a Boeing 787. I didn't, I wasn't born that way, I had to be trained and guess what, we still go back to training every six months, and we go back through all the initial stuff. So just because you reach the pinnacle, you don't stay up there and if you look at people that are successful, they're always trying to be better, just because you have three houses or five houses or 500 houses. Look, the crash to the bottom is much faster than the rise to the top, as we all know, and seen, you know, with banks crashing and other things. It's the people that are cognizant and follow that recipe and again, I don't think it's a very complicated recipe and if you look at people, you know, they do a lot of things in the one thing that I've learned, I'll give you a quick story. I was with one of my mentors one time, guys. 11 businesses, right. He's on the board of 11 businesses and he was my mentor, and we lunch and I was like, man, I don't know how you do it. Like you have 11 businesses. I'm like, how many days a week do you work? He's like, Tuesday, Thursday, and sometimes half a Friday. It was like this guy was talking Martian to me. I was like, like, how is that even possible and he goes, You know what, Steve, you know what the difference is? He says, I say No, way more than I say yes and I said, you know what, that's easy for you to say because you're this multimillionaire that has 11 businesses and he said, I would have never become this way. If I didn't start saying no and he said there's an opportunity cost that every time you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else, right.   So he goes every time you say yes to doing something that is not the most high income producing activity, you are saying no to something. He's like, it's again, he goes, it's your choice. So when I coach people, one of the things I do, and this will be a freebie for people watching is, I always have them do a two week time study, okay? So it's a very simple time study that they have to go and they have to write down for two weeks, every single thing that they do, right, you want to go on a diet, you start tracking your food, you want to see where your money's going, you go on a budget, you want to see where your time is going and start tracking it at the end of the day, they have to give me an executive summary. Tell me how your day went? I don't care. I don't care what you did. I just want to hear it from your words. Within one week, within one week, they will be like, I now know where my time is going and most people think they're so productive, like, oh, I work all day long. I'm like, bullshit, you don't work all day long. Yeah, study and we'll see. After they do the time set, he's like, man, I'm only working like three hours a day. I'm like, because everything else is reactionary. A five minute interruption, a five minute phone call is equal to 23 minutes of lost time. How many times as a as a real estate investor entrepreneur, do we get the sideways calls that interrupt our data, and they sidetrack us, if you get 10 calls a day, that's 230 minutes that you were never expecting to lose, you just lost that chunk of time. So now you're living what's called a reactive life and when you're living a reactive life, you're in chaos and when you're in chaos, you're not in control and when you're not in control, you're not making money. So the challenges is what people don't put a factor into this chaotic life, is the mental stress that it weighs on you. So once they do the first week, the second week, they have to go back in every day, they have to do this and I and just the type of coach I am, every day, they have to send me a picture of their time study and I tell them, the day you don't send this, to me is the last day you will hear from me, because I can't want it more than you like it's very simple. Like, even if you pay me all the money, you're done like that's just how it is I can't I don't have time to waste if you don't want to be better. So when they do this, the next day is they have to put an H or an L next to that high income activity, low income activity. And guess how many low income activities they do on a day?   Michael: Probably the majority…   Steve: Probably the majority. So then what we do at the end of that next week, we go, okay, these are the things that make you money. These are the things that don't we need to outsource systemize or automate the things that you don't make money on of these high income activities. Which ones do you like doing? Which ones are you good at? I like this, and this, okay, this is the focus, we need to find someone else to do these other high income activities. We don't ignore them and so my point is, is one of my mentors said that he goes TV goes understand saying no is not saying that. No, the way you think it. He goes when I say no, it just means I'm not doing it. He goes, I just make sure that other people are getting it done, but it's not through me. He goes things to have to get done in a business but he goes, it doesn't have to be you. That's your ego and pride, thinking that you have to be the one doing it all. So that was a very valuable lesson for me that I share with you, you in the listeners.   Michael: Yeah, thank you. I mean, as you're saying this, I'm just like, oh, my God, I have so many hours in my day, this is insane.   Steve: Yeah, we do. We all look, we all do. And it's a matter of stepping on the scale whenever I'm coaching someone, or someone gives me a call, like, man, I just feel like I'm losing it. I'm like, just do a time study. I mean, it sounds it sounds so simple, or whatever but I'm like just do the time study you will see very clearly, and then just fix it. Look at the pendulum swings. It's okay but you got to do something to take corrective action. Otherwise, it's going to keep swinging, it's never gonna go back on its own. You don't all of a sudden become more organized and more productive. It doesn't work that way, right? You're always gonna go back and you've got to start focusing on making that decision every day. What am I doing? You know, and it could be something simple. It could be reading for five minutes, could be writing your day could be whatever it is, but start creating habits and those habits become patterns and those patterns will change your life.   Michael: Mike drop exit stage left, Steve, that was amazing. Man, I want to be super respectful of your time. If people want to talk with you more, learn more about you reach out, have you as their coach, what's the best way for them to do so?   Steve: Yeah, they can find me on all social media handles. It's Rozenberg, Steve on Instagram, Steve Rozenberg on all the other stuff. They can also go to my website. My website is https://steverozenberg.com/ , it's ROZENBERG.com and you know, I do a lot of coaching. I do three day masterminds with very high level, people like Bradley, the iron cowboy, other people, I bring them in. It's all about mindset and it's all about, you know, the one thing I'll say real quick before we go and I want to be respectful of your time is don't be selfish, and to the people watching and what I mean by that is as entrepreneurs, we watch these shows, right? We buy real estate, we do all these things, and we do it for the people that we love but here's the thing, we never actually share the knowledge that we've learned with the people we're doing it for. To me, that's the definition of being selfish be selfless. Like I said, my son bought his first rental property and 14, create generational wealth, right? Bring them into the loop. Don't be selfish, because when you're selfish, you're isolating yourself, have an open mind and the ability to give abundance and share the knowledge that you learned from this podcast, show reading, bring the family that you're doing it for into the mix, and you will have a much, much more fulfilled life and you'll be much more successful not just financially, but personally relationship and all that stuff. So don't be selfish.   Michael: Yeah. I love that, Steve and one more final question before I let you go. You mentioned you're running a mastermind and I think a lot of our listeners maybe have been to how to coach or been to seminars or been in real estate trainings, and just whoever reason can't implement it. They take the classroom knowledge, but they can't execute a role. So what have you seen people do who are really successful at that and actually applying what they've learned and taking that excitement and went out and actually ran with it…   Steve: That's a good question. So and the reason I created my mastermind is that very reason, right? Everybody goes there, rah, rah, they leave in there, like two weeks later, they're like, it's in their car underneath their seats, all the dogs chewing on it and so what I do when I do my masterminds is once they're done, they get unlimited coaching from me, they get my phone, they get my text, they get my email, if they need me, they call me. So I'm there as accountability for them every single day. It's not that hey, I know you have a problem Monday morning with a tenant exploding your house but we're supposed talk Thursday at three so call me then that doesn't work in the real world. I don't think that that's a very successful model. I give unlimited so that they have me and they have me as accountability. I think the biggest challenge when you leave these events and coaching is the accountability part. If the coach if you have a coach and he's not accountable, find them accountability person, one of the things I do when I coach partners is I have a board of directors meeting, I create a board of directors for them going over the P&I statements going over balance sheets, going over the goals. This is what you need to do in any organization, all businesses do it. Most people don't. So if you can't make your coach be accountable, or you can't afford a coach or whatever the case may be find a friend, a family member or go to the bum on the corner. I don't care but make someone hold you accountable that you actually have to answer for what you're doing and I think if you're accountable, based on what you learned, that's why I do unlimited coaching, you're going to be much more successful with achieving the goals that you set out to achieve.   Michael: Makes total sense, Steve, this was a total, total blast, man, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with me. I really, really appreciate it.   Steve: Thank you, man. It's good having you appreciate you having me on.   Michael: Hey, we'll definitely talk soon.   All right, when that was episode, a big thank you to Steve for coming on super, super, super great stuff. As he was talking. I was like, oh my God, I need to start doing a lot more of what Steve is talking about. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing…

  I had a chance to sneak up on Vahe Torossian, a Microsoft Corporate Vice President and the man in charge of Sales for Microsoft Business Applications. While Vahe has been with Microsoft for 30 years, many of you may not know him, so I wanted to fix that. Vahe is no ordinary Seller; he's the “Top” guy who sets the sales strategy and motions for the entire global team. Vahe is also the guy who runs the really big enterprise customer meetings, and he's super-friendly, as you would expect for the Chief Rainmaker. We covered a lot of ground in this one, so enjoy! Transcript Below: Vahe: Hey, Vahe Torossian speaking. Steve: Vahe, Steve Mordue, how are you? Vahe: Hey Steve. In fairness let's say Charles mentioned that somehow you were going to call me. I didn't know when, but it's great to talk to you. Steve: After I interviewed him, I asked him who would be a good person to talk to? And he dropped your name. So it doesn't surprise me that he gave you a little heads up. Have you got a few minutes to chat? Vahe: Yeah, of course. Thanks Steve. Steve: Oh, perfect, perfect. So before we get into it, maybe we can tell the listeners a little bit about what your role is. I know you've been at Microsoft forever, I think like 30 years or something like that, and you've held a lot of different positions. But now you're in the business application space and that's been fairly recent. So there's probably a lot of folks that might not be familiar with you, who should be. Vahe: Oh yeah, thanks Steve. You're right. I've been celebrating my 30 years anniversary at Microsoft in April in 2022. I actually took the helm of the Biz Apps sales organization globally in late 2020. So basically I took my one way ticket to Redmond in December 2020. And the plane was almost empty, it was during the pandemic. And it was kind of a strange feeling for someone who has been traveling so much in the past. And of course, let's say I came with the lens of the business application, of course. Having led let's say Western Europe in my past role, having all the businesses of Microsoft. And I think Western Europe was quite successful on Biz Apps, our trajectory growth. And I guess that was also in fact the good match to some degree to try to take it at the global level. Steve: So is it a little easier to think about a smaller segment of the product mix, now really being able to focus like a business application? So I think before you were looking over all sorts of different things, weren't you? Vahe: Yeah, actually it's a great question. Because I think it's very different way of looking at the business. When you are, let's say almost you are the CEO of Microsoft in the countries that you are, let's say leading. You have all the levers to engage customers, partners, government, in different circumstances. And you try to leverage as much as you can the portfolio that you have to maximize the value. In the context of let's say the business application. I think it was, the interesting bet to some degree Steve, was to say, Hey, this has been a portfolio at Microsoft, whether you call it Dynamics 365 or Dynamics only as a brand in the past. And if you go back 20 years, let's say almost, with the Navision and Axapta, and Solomon Software and Great Plains. All these stories, all these product came together. And 20 years later, I think it has been part of a portfolio somewhere. Vahe: And you had almost what I will call the strong, let's say, portfolio of Microsoft, the platform, the modern workplace and environment. And I felt the work that James Phillips in the past, and with Alyssa, and Charles, and Amy here now on the marketing side. Have been a strong inflection point to bring together both the technology in the cloud environment. But at the same time, a market environment that requires very different, let's say tools to make the most of this transformation. And I felt that there's one piece at Microsoft that requires a huge catalyst leveraging the innovation. But responding as much as we can to what the customer need or even don't know yet what they need. And I think that's what I think to me was almost a bet. It's almost like all of a sudden you move to the little dog, if I may say. But with a huge potential of transforming something with great asset for Microsoft, and the customers and partners. Steve: Well I have to say, having been involved with Microsoft for a while, we have a phrase over here called redheaded stepchild, which is kind of what Dynamics was for many, many years. It was off campus, it was just this thing out there and under Satya, when Satya came in, he's the first one that I think came into the position that recognized this should be another leg on the stool, not some remote thing out there. And I think that's made a huge. Difference because I was involved in the years before Satya with business applications and they were not just something over here on the back shelf, and now they're right front and center. I think that between Dynamics and what's happened with the power platform, cloud in general. Microsoft's ability to get into and help customers is massively different than it used to be. And in your role now, you're dealing with a lot different type of customer. You're talking about Office 365 or Azure, you're dealing with IT. And now you're mostly dealing with business users. It's a completely different audience you're having to work with today, isn't it? Vahe: Absolutely. I think also you're right since Satya took the helm of the company, to some degree you of course we have seen how we tackle the cloud computing hyper-scale environment. But at the same time, in fact what happened with the Covid in the last two years, have seen an acceleration of what we call in the past, the productivity tools to become more and more collaboration environment. And from almost an application or a set of application, it became more and more a platform on its own. And so it's almost like when you think about where we are today and we were talking about the Covid, I don't think the Covid is yet over fully everywhere. But now everybody's talking about recession, right? And there's no one headline that you look, you say, oh my goodness, what's going to happen? Which just means in terms of planning for 22, 23. Vahe: So I think the assets that is now quite unique to some degree, or differentiated as you said, between the Dynamics 365 platform components and the Power Platform, it's almost bringing together. But I think, I don't remember Steve, in a few years back, I think Satya was talking about the mobility of the experience. And that was more from a device perspective initially. But actually what you see now is that with Teams as a platform, the system of productivity almost connect with the system of record more and more. And it's re-transforming the way you are thinking. It's almost like, you think about, you don't have to go to a CRM environment or ERP environment to get access to the data. It's almost like wherever you work, if you use an Excel or if you use Teams or whatever, you get access naturally, almost intuitively to your data set. And the data set are that's almost fulfilled naturally. And so we have no additional task. Vahe: And so I think that's the transformation world in which we are. Which connects cheaper well. We almost do more with less, right? And that's going to be almost the conversation we're going to have in the coming month. And it started already with many customers and partners. How we can optimize the assets that they have, how they can let's say increase the deep provisioning of some assets that they have. They are paying too much to concentrate a bit more, to get more agility. And I think this is where also, from a partner perspective, Steve, I see a lot of potential. You are referring to Power Platform, it's fascinating to see what it was in the very beginning, this notion of citizens developer, what does it mean? Vahe: People didn't know exactly what it is, we're quite afraid to touch it. But now when you see the shortage of developers in the market in general. And how you can make the most of some absolutely topnotch people who are not developer, touching the last mile execution challenges. Have been facing crazy environment and situation that they say, I can't believe how my IT guide doesn't solve these things. I've been telling them the customer pain point for so many years. And now with some, let's say [inaudible 00:08:45] place, let's say available for them, along with some let's say technical assets, you can really make the magic in the very, very, very time. Steve: Charles came up with a term on the fly, ambient CRM. Kind of where we're heading here when you talk about things like Viva Sales and some of these pieces that are really wiring all these components together. Covid was a terrible thing, but it certainly was a perfect storm for pushing the technology forward into a place that it's been fighting to get to, it's really been fighting to get to that point. And Teams was a great product. But certainly Covid created the perfect environment where Teams made insane sense for companies that were maybe just thinking about it or dabbling with it, and suddenly they're all diving into it. And you guys of course poured the investment on top of that. And I think that the silver lining of Covid, for technology, is how far it really allowed it to advance in that period of time. Maybe we just need a pandemic every five years to push a technology forward. I don't know. Vahe: No, but I have to say that even in my previous role when I was running Western Europe. Even the most skeptical people in regard to the cloud or the transition to a cloud environment. Having the one that rushed in the first, almost to a cloud environment, once the pandemic has been a bit of a real situation to face, and to drive the economy or the public services let's say on. So I think you're right, so you don't want to wish for another pandemic or whatever, but it has been absolutely a forcing function in many domains. And that's true. Steve: I think the challenge we have is particularly in the business application space. You guys have launched so many things in such a short period of time. And as you mentioned before, Power Apps, people picking it with a stick, they don't even know what it is. And there's also this first mover fear, I think. Microsoft has been, in my mind, kind of famous for coming to the game late and then just taking over the game. We were very late to the cloud, but once we got there we just took over the cloud, and it seems to be a pattern. But when you look back at the early days of cloud before you guys stepped into it, it was wild west. And all sorts of challenges with cloud. And I think that that gave a lot of people fear about, I remember I moved into cloud early and we got destroyed. Steve: And so I think there's a lot of folks out there, just from a technology standpoint, that have gotten their hands burnt by moving too quickly. And we're at that point with the platform and dynamics, where these are not new anymore. Relatively in history, they're new. But they're not new products and they're not built by some garage shop somewhere with a couple of developers. This is what 15,000 people building this stuff back there. This is professionally built, well built stuff, that is ready for prime time. So the first movers have already come through and they all survived. So I really feel like we're at that point where it should just take off now, it should just absolutely take off. And I'm sure you guys are seeing this. Vahe: Yeah. And Steve, I think one thing also is that you're right, there's a usual thing about let's say the first mover advantage. At the same time from a customer perspective, you don't want to be the Guinea pig, right? On any situation, especially from the technology standpoint. I think that increasingly what I see in the conversation is that there's almost now, because of the quality of the native integration of the several different applications. Whether you are in the customer experience environment, on the service side, on the supply chain, on the finance or the local no code or app. All these components are absolutely connected to each other. And basically whether you have Teams as a platform in your company, or Azure in environment, all these component are connected very, very easily to each other. Vahe: And so I would say that the beauty of it now is that you have all almost the notion of marginal cost. If you really want to leverage many of the assets that we can bring, and you don't have to take all of them at once, of course it has to be matching what you need now. But the right is that, let's say there's an almost fully integrated benefit all the connectors with the rest of the world outside of Microsoft environment, which is a great value for the partners, ISV and [inaudible 00:13:58], and at the same time to the customers. Who think now, hey I should do more with less. How should I think about my investments for the next, let's say five years? Most of the customers now are really thinking about the longer term relationship. And defining what's the value SLA almost that you're expecting both from the partner of the vendor and the vendor itself. Vahe: And so it's almost like, you remember when we transition from a world of build revenue and licensing, to now more consumption and usage. It's almost the user and consumption discussion is a forcing function about the customer success, how we align on the same definition of the customer success. And what's the time to value that you committed? What are the key milestones, in full transparency, that you need to bring in? And I think that's where we are now. And because Microsoft, I think overall as a company, have been increasing tremendously the level of trust. From the security standpoint, the compliance components, and so on, and the scalability. Vahe: I think that's the great leverage for us now in terms of the conversation and making sure that the customers are getting the value that we have been selling to them. How we show how much skin in the game we have to make them successful. And then it's a flying wheel. It's almost like the innovation will help you to bring new things, respond, anticipate, take the feedback of the customer to the engineering, develop new stuff quickly to the market. So I think it's what we are heading to now, Steve. And I think from a partner perspective you might even see and feel it, right, more and more. Steve: Oh yeah, I mean I think the sales motion has changed completely. Only a few years ago we go into a customer and try and convince them to replace Salesforce with Dynamics. And they'd say no, and we were done. We'd say okay, well we'll come back in a couple years and ask again. We had nothing else to sell them. And now today, I mean if they have Salesforce, fine that's great, keep Salesforce, let's add some things around it. Salesforce will work with Viva Sales, Salesforce will work with Power Platform. Steve: There's so many doors now, I think, for a seller to be able to get into a customer and solve problems for that customer without having to do the one big yank and replace. Which is very difficult to do, it's difficult to do on opposite as well. I mean once a customer gets a big solution like Salesforce or Dynamics 365 installed, those are very difficult to uproot, it takes a very long time. And you guys have created now, this product mix, where we don't have to uproot something to sell that customer and to get engaged with that customer. We can go all over that business without having to uproot something. And I think that's huge. Vahe: I agree Steve. And I think that it's almost this notion of rip and replace type of strategy, right? In some cases it works because this is what the customer wants. They are fed up about let's say competitive environment that didn't deliver on the expectation. And we should be ready to cope with that and respond, and we have a lot of this. But at the same time as you said, what we call the strategy of having a hub and spoke, let's say, almost environment, gives us for every line of business. That we decided as a company to go and have a significant acceleration of growth and market share, is very much to give that option to say, Hey, you know what, Mr. Customer, Mrs. Customer, you decide to be on that type of environment, who we are to ask you to change? Vahe: If you are happy that's fine. But what we can bring you is almost to enhance what you have with some component that absolutely will be transparently integrated to what you're using. And it's a great circuit, an additional circuit for the partner, it's a great value for the customer. We don't feel harassed to change something because we know the cost of transitioning from one to another one. And then it's up to us to demonstrate the value we can bring and eventually we can take from there to the next level in the future. Steve: It's got to put some pressure on the competitors also. I if think of, I might just use Salesforce because they've always been the big competitor. I'm sure that they were confident sitting there at their large customer when all we had was trying to replace their instance that was going to be difficult to do and then we'd go away and they didn't have to worry about us. Now we're coming in and we're circling around, and we're solving problems in this department, and we're building apps in this department, and we're literally bolting into Salesforce. And one potential outcome is that the customer decides over time that wow, all of this Microsoft stuff that we've brought in works really, really well. Steve: That's gotta put some pressure on the incumbent big application in there that hey, you're surrounded by a bunch of stuff the customer is very happy with, you better make sure they're happy with your stuff and they don't reach that point. Cause like you say, oftentimes when you see those rip and replace, it's because the product, or the company, or something hasn't met the expectation. And to be fair, that could actually happen with any of us, right? It has a lot to do with implementation, design, how thing was put together. Less to do with the application itself, that could happen to any vendor. But certainly raises the bar to some of these competitors when they're surrounded by well performing Microsoft products that are satisfying customers. Would you think? Vahe: Yes. Absolutely. And that's why there's a continuity between what we sell, how we sell, to who we sell, and how we drive the implementation. It's an ongoing wheel that is a very different mindset that we all learn in the transition to the cloud, let's say, environment. But absolutely. I think it's a good forcing function to raise the bar to some degree, raise the bar for the benefit of the customer. You mentioned the competitiveness of what this type of hub and spoke strategy can create. You're right. But in the end, the biggest, let's say winner, will be the customer, right? Which I think is always and should always be the north star for us and our partners. Vahe: And I would say the relevance of the innovation should be in fact the pressure that we put to each other to make sure that say we listen carefully to what the customer is facing as a challenge, but potentially to translate their current challenge into the future challenge, to push them also to think differently. Because I think the notion of rip and replace [inaudible 00:21:06] One of the thing was, I don't know if you remember that the initial issue and worry was that people were saying Oh, we are moving to the cloud, therefore we are transforming. Well it was not that tried and true. People were just keeping the same processes in the cloud and the one that they had on premise. Which was not benefiting at all of the scalability and the agility of the cloud environment. Yeah, you remember that right? Yeah. Steve: They just changed the way they were paying for it. Vahe: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that's what we have seen on this application modernization, on some of the enterprise wide innovation also opportunities that we had discussed, is how much you can really say, in this new world of competitiveness, of un-expected challenges. How you can, let's say, keep your applications fitting always in fact proactively the challenges that you're going to have too. As opposed to keep going with a quite heavy code to maintain, with people who leave that cost you a fortune to maintain. So I think this agility that the power apps, [inaudible 00:22:22] to made, have been bringing I think is the reason why we have seen this huge acceleration of growth, which is today is six, seven times faster than the market growth of local no code. Vahe: So I think it's a great, let's say indication, of what people start to realize. And I think in the conversation that you had with Charles when he was referring to, hey some of the AI capability have been slower to be picked up by the vast majority of customers. And it's true because there's a level of, let's say, can I trust this thing? Am I going to lose completely ground and control of what I'm doing? All these natural thing. I think as we bring more and more, let's say tools, are manageable. The Power Platform environment, or let's say the device sales capability on top of the teams or Salesforce environment. That people will start to test this. Vahe: And I think we're going to be more and more advocate about Hey, what are the benefits of the organization that are using this technology and how we can trust them lean forward. And I think Charles was referring to our digital sellers. Their daily life is very much, let's say, using all these AI lead capabilities in terms of reporting, in terms of let's say incident management, in terms of even coaching for themselves to do a better call next time, is just fascinating to see. Maybe we should even do a kind of, let's say talk on this, once we have a bit more, let's say after the GA, maybe a few months after, we should have, let's say what the key learnings and [inaudible 00:24:00] from a customer standpoint. Steve: Yeah, it always makes a customer confident when they know that the vendor is using the product that they're trying to sell them. It's interesting, everything moving to a subscription has changed kind of the mindset, not just of you guys obviously, where there's no big sale. There's a sale of a big subscription, the revenue of which will come over a long period of time. But the customer has this option every month to say, you know what, I'm not happy, you're not solving my problem. In the old days they were kind of stuck, they bought all this stuff and they had to make it work. Now they don't have to make it work, we have to make it work, we have to keep them happy enough. Steve: We recently launched a professional services on a subscription, which is an interesting model, that I lay awake at night thinking about that same thing. That before a customer would pay you a bunch of money to a bunch of stuff and now they're paying you a little bit of money every month for as long as you keep them happy. And this bar of, I mean we've always wanted to keep customers happy. But it's never had the impact or importance that it does when you're on a subscription with that customer who can just any time say, “I'm not happy, goodbye.” It raises the bar I think for you guys to have to continuously innovate, what do you done for me lately? You got to continuously innovate and bring new things. And you've got more motivation probably than the company's ever had in history because of the subscription model. Do you feel that internally? Vahe: Yes, yes. As I said, it has been a great enabler to raise the bar. And it's almost like you know can have a beautiful slide deck and saying the right things, but the execution doesn't match what you are saying somehow, that you don't walk the talk. I think you could have been in that situation in a kind of on-premise environment. I think the cloud has been a forcing function to say, hey you know what, you can claim you are customer success, or you are customer first, or you are customer obsessed. But the reality is that if you don't deliver the service properly, if you are not as responsive timely, if you're not proactive, customer will say enough is enough, I can stop my subscription. Steve: I have options. Vahe: I have options. So I think it's a good hygiene, how it makes you having an embracing habits, that I would say are the natural thing when you engage with customer. But I think it's almost, let's say, for the one who might have forgotten that basics, it has been a great, let's say, opportunity to bring back the roots of what is it to satisfy a customer, right? And I think that's what the cloud licensing model helped put together. And I think there are still always room for improvement. Vahe: And similarly I would say, what you have seen on the collaborative applications, what we have seen on the low-code, no-code, you are going to see it now, also I would say on the supply chain environment, which is shipper, shipper at stress because of what we have seen on the Covid, but also in fact on the geopolitical aspect and some of the recession discussion. And also, on the overall, what I would say the contact center in our environment at large. How this world is going to change is going to be led a lot by the capability that technology can bring, and the ability to listen carefully to the strategies and the challenges of the corporation that are involved in. So it's quite exciting actually. Steve: I don't get involved a lot with the call center operations. But I picture the old call center is this massive building full of cubicles and people with headphones. And I picture that now that most of those people are probably working remote. A call center now could operate at my desk, just about, and have thousands of people all working from their home. So, that whole industry feels like it's changed significantly. And yes, I'm sure they're starving for the technology that fits the model that they're being pushed to adopt. Vahe: Yeah, yeah absolutely. I mean it's interesting, if you summarize some of the business challenges or the things that are coming from multiple conversation. We had the nuanced [inaudible 00:29:04] a few months back. And so it's almost the first fiscal year where we're going to be able to strategize, operate together as one organization. And it's great because somehow you take their own experience in terms of conversational AI and what they have been leading in for many years. And at the same time you hear both, let's say, the customer feedback when it comes to, as you said, the traditional contact center or call center evolution. How to translate this into a modern service experience, right? Vahe: And how AI can contribute to that on the seamless integrated way. How to think about customer retention in this world where people are a bit more struggling with their bottom line. How to protect the customer privacy as well. Because you talk about voice capability and recording, but how you cope with the privacy and the security during this service journey. So all these are absolutely great opportunities for us to combine what we're hearing, the technology and the acquisition that we did a few months back, to put that into a great component. And I would say the data analytics that the power Platform Power BI gives us on the back end, is going to be a great platform for us again to differentiate from the rest of the world. Steve: Well and it'll also help kind offset the fact that these people are all remote now, right? They used all be sitting in this big room. And people were standing up there looking over a rail at them making sure they were doing what they were doing and available. And you can't lose any of the customer service quality just because you've moved everybody out of the building and nobody can physically see them anymore. AI is the only way to plug that hole really of being able to know what's going on in this organization with all those people remote. In your day-to-day activities, I'm assuming that since you're head of sales that you get engaged with all of the big opportunities that come to Microsoft. And you're in there leading the charge to get them to make a decision for the services. What are the areas that you're seeing among those larger customers that they're really excited about? Is it the low-code stuff, is that very exciting to them? Or are they still wrapping their arms around that? Vahe: No, no. I would say that the notion of, let's say, application modernization, which doesn't mean I do the same thing I was doing before in the cloud. Really thinking about, what do I want to fix? And how much I can include some perspective about what could happen in some, let's say options or scenario? That capability that Power Apps has been giving them. And now we see that the corporations who are the most successful are the one who are almost creating a center of excellence within their own organization, that let's say help the IT to monitor someone, in fact the usage rate. But also to amplify the user experience and to spread it across the organization. And the ability to almost measure the positive impact. Vahe: The second thing I've seen is on the low-code, no-code, is the time to value. It's almost like you can almost now, and when I say “we,” it's almost we with the partners. We can almost say for this type of let's say expectation, or application, or challenge, it will take three month to be ready, not three years, two years. Or we have a heavy development environment. And so this center of excellence, let's say mindset or framework, is a very powerful one. Because it helps to almost create a concentration of hey, what are the most critical things to fix and how long it's going to take? Vahe: And people are almost, let's say very impressed, about how quickly you can have great quality because you bring both the expertise of, as I said, almost the person who is facing the challenge every single day. Being non-technical guy, we have in fact the support of IT. And I think that's the business decision makers along with the IT. I think to me, that's why we have been on this six, seven times faster than the market rate. We have huge ambition there. And be aware that we have also 20 million of users of Power Apps today that came from the city campaigns. So people are actively using it, not yet paying it. So that means that it's great, it's the future almost by, for us to go after. Because people are starting to use in fact at least the basic functions to get adjusted customers to and so on. Vahe: The second thing I would say is that people have realized how easy it is, and recognizing that Teams became a platform close to 300 million users. It started at 25 or 30 million almost pre-pandemic. And so that became, almost as you said, you are at home, or you are wherever you are and that's the interaction that you have with your customers, partners, ecosystem and employees. And so now it's a marginal component to say hey, can I have one tab that is going to do that type of task? My forecasting, my thing. So this is again the connection between what you use every single day at scale, and the marginal cost of bringing a component of Dynamics 365, a component of the application that you create quickly for Power Apps or Power Automate from the process, implementation, and automation. So I think that's what I see the two biggest part of the customer reaction, and I would say feedback for us. And encouragement to be fair, to keep going in that direction. Steve: We've got lots of examples that you guys have got out on the case studies of large companies that have really got in head first. And just thousands of apps in the organization solving thousands of problems. And just excellent, I mean you just have to almost grin when you look and hear about these things. But for every one of those there's still a bunch of them out there where, I don't know, IT maybe is still an obstacle. I mean IT has been, it's interesting because IT's been a friend of Microsoft for a long time because a lot of the products that they have engaged with were Microsoft products, servers, et cetera. They've had to make this transition to cloud, which was scary for them. But they ultimately did it for the most part, not all of them, did it. And now here comes low-code, no-code that's got to scare the bejesus out of a lot of IT folks. And how are you at that company size? Because frankly, we struggle with the same thing in the mid-market. How, at that big company size, do you deal with that occasional obstinance from it? Vahe: Yeah, it's a great point. You're right. I think Microsoft in general, I don't want to generalize, but in general have been for the last four years, very, very close to the IT decision makers. And rightfully so, because there were so many and still so many things to achieve in partnership with the IT and CIO environment. At the same time, when it comes to business applications or business process, I would say that you need to find the balance between the business decision makers, who are the ultimate decision makers when it comes to what is going to affect their business, or the way they work from a Salesforce perspective, or the way the marketing leaders wants to automate some of the processes that they believe is important. Vahe: And so that we probably are in a unique business case at Microsoft, where you have to talk to both. And the learning is that in the very beginning where you were only talking to IT, for example in the low-code, no-code, you could have signed a deal with IT, but then you know almost had to start to sell it again internally. Because you had to knock to all the doors of the business decision makers to say, Hey, do you know that you have this thing in your corporation, and anyway this is the thing that you can do, do you mind starting over there? Vahe: And so that was basically almost a waste of cycle. And so we said we have to do these two things together. We need to be able to articulate what is the value of low-code, no-code, maybe in FSI, financial service, or manufacturing, or in retail. And of course there's a strong common denominator. But there are some specifics that may resonate more for some industries more than others, and therefore the decision makers. And we have seen that when we do these things well together in parallel, when you sign the contract, or the deal, or the agreement, the time to move to usage or the business case implementation is much faster. Basically you bring more value both to IT and the business, and for Microsoft. And so I think that's the piece where I think it evolved on low-code, no-code, from being afraid in the beginning or skeptical, to a place where they are increasingly embracing this center of excellence environment. Where they own it as [inaudible 00:38:55]. It is connected to the business decision makers, therefore it brings value. Vahe: And so IT brings value to the business decisions or the business unit and the line of business. And then what was missing so far was, how can we give them the monitoring environment, almost the control board to manage the budget, to manage let's say, or having warning to say, hey, business A, you know are over consuming. Should we lower the investment or should we accelerate because of what you are doing? So I think that the kind of tools that we are bringing now to the IT, so that they are absolutely part of the success of the company and they are connected to the business decision makers. I think that's the best way for us to demonstrate value and keep it completely aligned with the business directions. Steve: And the opposite would be true also if you're going in trying to sell the line of business owner without talking to IT. And you convince the, now you got to go sell IT. So it's two cycles. Vahe: Absolutely. Steve: You have to somehow get them both in the same room and do it at once. So we've got so many products coming, we've got so many products here. And if you imagine a generic customer of a large size that you're going to be going to talk to next week about all the Microsoft has to offer. What are a couple of the key products that you're going to want to make sure you land in their head, that you feel across all companies are extremely high value or differentiators? The thing you don't want to walk out of that room without mentioning? Vahe: Yeah, I would say, and somehow you touch on it Steve, earlier on. As part of the transition that we are driving, one of the thing is also to simplify. To simplify the portfolio, to simplify the go-to market, to simplify the strategy. We discussed the hub and spoke, let's say strategy. And so I would say at the very beginning, what we said is that instead of saying, hey, there's a proliferation of products. And every year we add more and more and more. And at some point you confuse your own sellers, you confuse the customer, you confuse the product, it's super tough to digest everything, and even understanding what's the hierarchy across all these things? Steve: For licensing Vahe: And licensing on top all this complexity, right? I mean we have gone through it, and it's still not perfect. But at the same time I think what we said is that there are the categories, or the line of business, that we want to go in. We want to have a fair shot to take a leadership position in the next let's say years. And what it takes to get to that point, from an innovation perspective, from a go-to market perspective, from a part program perspective, from a sales and seller investment capacity perspective. And so on. And so I would say that's more the starting point Steve, where we say we define five categories, a fine line of business, where we believe we have a shot to become a leader. And these categories we need to be able to be clear on where the value that we bring. Vahe: For example, if you take the customer experience, let's say OLAP, which is more the connected sales and marketing, if I may summarize at the high level. It's going to be all the conversation about the collaborative apps, the customer experience transformation. You have already Teams for the vast batch of you, hey that's what you want to achieve. The Dynamic 65 sales is going to give you that capability, or the LinkedIn Sales Navigator on top of it is going to give you that type of insight. You know are not touching about AI, you think about almost sales automation, Salesforce automation. Let's show you how the AI infused capability within Dynamics 365 sales and marketing, give you that asset absolutely naturally integrated on your team's environment. Vahe: And same thing on Viva Sales, the sales productivity, we can measure it the way you want, and you're on control of that. And by the way, if it works on the environment that you are working, could be Microsoft, could not be as we discussed, that's more the conversation that we want to have. And of course on the back end you are going to have Dynamics 365 sales, and marketing, and Viva sales, most of the time for that line of business. If you think about let's say low-code no-code, I would say you will have probably three type of conversations. You know will have a conversation about hey, you're a large enterprise, multi-deals coverage. And basically the benefit of having an enterprise wide, let's say engagement, what does it mean? What's the framework for you to make the most of it? And how we commit with our partners to deliver you the value. Vahe: And so you can commit on five years maybe with Microsoft and how much value we can bring already to you. Or it's purely an application modernization. You move to a hyper-scale environment, but you have all these old fashioned applications. So basically, you are a platform that is modern but all your application are still old fashioned. How low-code, no-code is going to help you to accelerate that transition. And let's start with one company, one app. Pick one and let's do it right, and then replicate from there. And then potentially, in fact, the last one which I think is going to be the biggest one potentially, is the business process automation. Think about the forecasting process. I have to say that when I was running my business in Western Europe, we have been doing this traditional forecasting process, which in every company when we talk with business leaders or CFOs, that's the same thing. You ask the forecast at the lowest level of the organization, then the manager of that organization, do a judgment. That judgment moves to the next level of management. The management do another judgment. Vahe: So all the way up to the top level, who does a judgment anyway on top of it. Or they find, depending on who is doing the forecast, almost let's say a coefficient of let's say correction based on who is doing the forecast. When you start to do that thing into AI and you say what, we know the behavior of people [inaudible 00:45:26] potentially, you come after 18 months or one year to a trend of forecast that is so close to in fact what you were getting before. That you say how many hours, thousands and thousands of hours of productivity saving I'm going to have just because of this AI forecasting capability? That's the kind of example of it, for say an application for low-code, no-code, that is just checking in fact the behavior or the intelligence so far to help you to drive your business. Vahe: And so we have been running that internally as well and it's quite impressive. And so that's the kind of conversation that you want to have both with the IT, but you see this perfect example of hey, having that conversation with the CFO, or the sales leader, is a great one. Because it's a marginal cost again, to what you are using already. And the same thing happened on finance, and supply chain, and service when it comes to, all right so where you, what are you using? Are you still on-prem? The vast majority of ERP, the vast majority of contact center and call center are still on-prem. So you can think about hey, what does it take to move to a cloud and more agile environment? What are the best that you want to do? Which is the strategic partner or vendor, who are going to take this? Because you're not going to change this environment every two years. It's a 5 year, 10 year bets, right? Steve: The marriage. Vahe: It's a marriage. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean does it help Steve? Steve: Yeah. And I think interesting, one of the things I think about AI in forecasting, is it doesn't have any personal bias. And obviously in larger companies I'm sure there's a lot of checking and cross checking. In the middle market it's a bunch of optimistic sales people coming up with optimistic projections that have no basis in history or anything else that's going on, of what's going on. And I've been in meetings where we've been displaying some AI facts, or figures, or forecasts, or projections. And listen to senior people just adamantly disagree. That number is absolutely not correct. And I've had them tell me I've been doing this for 30 years, I know, I know. And then here comes next month and guess what was right? The AI model was right and the guy who's been doing it for 30 years is making up some excuses. Steve: So I think that the world right now is fraught with bad projections on everything. Cost projections, sales projections, there's too much personal bias involved in the process of creating those things. And as leadership of a company, you're relying on these things. They're going to drive you right over a cliff potentially, if you're not careful, if you don't have good information, if you can't get the bias out of it. And I think that's one of the big things that AI brings that I've found resonates with leadership sometimes, is kind of remove all the bias. I mean it's just removing all the bias. You don't want to hear smoke, you know want to hear reality so you can act accordingly. You're surrounded by a bunch of people who want to make you feel good, but AI doesn't care how you feel. It's going to tell you the truth, doesn't care if you get mad. Vahe: Steve also, it's interesting because sometime, you point to this that sometime when you are too early on the innovation, some people might be again scared or skeptical as we said. But I remember we were looking at let's say some numbers when it comes to, are we operating consistency, for example, in the world? Or there are some that say practices that are bringing more growth or more relevant than other places. And so, one thing was interesting was in the services line of business or category, you think of case management. And it's one of the opportunities. And you might say well case management is not super innovative. Well, it's something that is quite well known. But case management was one of the fastest growth in majors. And that was because it was responding to the fact that vast majority of the case management processes are still on-prem today. Vahe: And the one we're moving to the cloud, especially in public sector, to make sure that the queuing system is working, you have a full up, let's say email to tell you and tracing where you are on the request that you put in place. All these things we believe is generic everywhere, but it's not, it's by far not. And across mid-market, and large corporation, and private sector, and public sector. So it's not always innovation that drives in fact the next generation of work. It's also in fact the basics that are not fulfilled today and that create a bad customer experience. And that's interesting, in a way, to keep very humble about let's say what we still have on our plate. Steve: I can remember not that long ago, when you talk about customer service, the goal of many companies was to provide as bad as service as possible so they didn't have to do it. I mean it was a cost center for them. They hadn't come to the realization yet, this is decades, but hadn't come to realization yet that customer service is what drives future revenue. They just looked at as a cost center and figured the worst it is, the less people will use it and it'll cost us less, so that mindset has changed. You talk about fears that people have of technology. And so a lot of this is people self preservation fears. They see something coming, we saw it even in the partner channel, uh-oh here comes low-code, no-code, customers are going to be doing all the work themselves, they're not going to need us partners anymore. And it's like this first reaction that people have about anything new, is how's that going to affect me? And generally they're going to assume negatively. Steve: Our business is busier than we've ever been as a result of low-code. So it's actually been the opposite. But partners, and just like people, you know need to be prepared to pivot into that wind. If you're just going to stand there with your arms crossed and not move, yeah low-code's going to hurt you. You know need to lean into that. And the same thing with individuals that are looking at new technology. It's coming and you can either stand there with your arms crossed and let it knock you down, which is a foregone conclusion. Or you can bend with it. And to be honest, the younger folks are more flexible than us older folks. So they're not having any trouble with this technology at all. We recently signed a new customer, it's all young people and man they just get it. I mean there's no explaining anything. They understand every single thing you're talking about, why and what. And I mean they're born with a cell phone in their hand. None of this is foreign, but we still got to get rid of all of us old guys. Vahe: I agree, I agree. And time flies. And it's almost like, often, let's say, you need read to embrace that. Always a zero regret strategy in this type of, let's say, evolving environment. Anything that you postpone, to some degree, is almost let say a loss. And that has been proven in the technology run. And when I look at, we always have to be humble. It's a highly competitive market, and people are smart, and that's great. Cause as we discussed, it's all good for the customer. But I think that when I look back to the commitment of the company, the investment that we put in place last year with the support of Satya, Amy Hood, [inaudible 00:53:27]. With more than 1000 sellers injected in the marketplace, we keep going on the investment on the local no-code, even more so to drive the acceleration of the growth in addition to the Dynamic 365. Vahe: When I look at every category that we are in now, and I think it's a good confidence level that we on the path here. That first of all, we are between two times and three times the growth of the market for each of these category, that's a good indication. And I think that also raise the confidence level of the product sellers at Microsoft. To bring these different components together and add more value to the customer. So look, it's a journey Steve, and it's quite exciting to be on this. And people like yourself because we have been there also for a long time, and you know what it takes to transition. And you never fail, you learn always. And everything that you learn and that works, it's almost to think how we can scale and bring that to the mass as quick as we can so that people can benefit from it. Steve: Well success breeds success. And you know guys have got it going right now. I've taken up enough of your time. Anything that you want to get out there that I didn't ask or we didn't talk about? Vahe: No, I think, Steve, you did a good overview of let's say where we are, how we think. Again, I think that the simplification, the portfolio, the much more focused approach, the category, and more consistent execution on the go-to market is really the next level for us. And the hub and spoke strategy across all these categories gives much more room to increase the business opportunity for us and the partners. Steve: Yep, I think so, I think so. All right, listen, it was great talking to you, I'm glad you made the time. And I definitely hope to able to talk to you again in the future, get something new to talk about. Any time you want to reach out, and jump on, and talk about some stuff, let me know. We're happy to get you on. Vahe: We are all, let's say reading all these, let's say headlines on the recession. In a few months from now, between now and then of calendar year, we're to see a bit more clarity on how the planning is happening for the mid-market, large corporation, how the public sector is evolving in this dimension. And also, we'll have a few, let's say product launched that we talked about, Viva Sales, any learning from that, let's say maybe the first two, three months, would be interesting to see how people react. And maybe that could be a great opportunity for us to chat. Also what's going on the [inaudible 00:56:17] Steve: Yeah, yeah. Vahe: Plenty of things to talk, I guess. Steve: Sounds good. All right, well hey, thanks again for your time. Vahe: Thank you. Take care Steve, have a great day.

It's Joël's first episode as host of The Bike Shed!

I have had my head down working on some big things since RapidStart CRM growth exploded, and it has been a while since you heard from me. Well, I'm getting back to it with a follow-up chat with Charles Lamanna who recently took over for James Phillips as head of Business Applications for Microsoft. This was my fourth chat with Charles, and it was interesting to back listen to them in order. It really gives you a sense of where Microsoft has come. I managed to catch him in his office having just wrapped up their year-end. Enjoy! If you want to listen to my chats with Charles in order, The first one was October of 2018, the second one was September of 2019, the third one was March of 2020. Transcript Below: Steve: Welcome to the Steve Has a Chat Podcast. Where I call someone out of the blue with a record button on, and hope to have an unscripted conversation about Microsoft business applications. Let's see how it goes. Enjoy. Charles: Hey, this is Charles Lamanna. Steve: Charles. Steve Mordue. How are you doing? Charles: Good. Great to hear from you, Steve. It's been a long time. Steve: It has been a while. Have you got some time for a chat? Charles: For you, anytime. Steve: I appreciate it. Well, I guess the big news for you obviously is putting on the big boy hat, huh? Charles: Yes. I moved up an extra floor in the Advanta building in the Microsoft Campus. Steve: Oh did you? Charles: No, I'm just kidding. But metaphorically speaking at least. Because for folks that don't know, James Phillips leaving in March of this year, I kinda stepped in across all aspects of business applications of Microsoft. And, over the last four years, I've gotten to know the place, know the people, know the business and I'm super excited about the opportunity. And I think the future has never been brighter for business at Microsoft. Steve: Well, I never got the feeling that James held you back, or any of the folks on your team back, but he certainly, we have to give him a lot of credit for really taking this thing to a whole nother level. You weren't here before, I don't think, at least with the business apps, but it was really run by morons before he took over. And he completely turned that thing around and turned it in a whole nother business. And now with you taking over, I'm expecting that to continue. I don't know if there's been some things that have been in your bag that you've wanted to do that James was keeping you from, that you're going to pull out, or if you're just going to continue the path, or what's your thinking now that you've got that gavel? Charles: So definitely not held back. I would say I was super fortunate I worked for James for, I think seven, eight years in total. So I was able to learn a bunch and he was without a doubt, the most supportive manager I've ever had in my career, in terms of both enabling and clearing paths for what we wanted to do from a vision and dreaming perspective. And if it weren't for his support, things like Power Apps would have never gotten off the ground. So, definitely. And I think as we go to the future, we have this amazing foundation. I mean, BizApps is a major and key component and pillar of the Microsoft Cloud. Charles: 10 years ago, you probably would've thought that impossible. Right. To have Dynamics and Power Platform alongside Azure and Office. Now that we're here, let's go take it to the next level. And that's the push, and it's continuing a lot of the great innovation we've already done from a data-first, AI-first approach. Kind of sprinkling in some more collaboration with teams, and really revisiting the end-user experience, the platform, to go increasingly modernize and scale it and make sure that all our components from CRM, to ERP, to Power Platform work great together. Steve: I don't think it could have achieved that status with Dynamics 365 alone. It really took the Power Platform coming into being, I think, to give it the breadth that it needed to be able to get there. With Dynamics 365, we didn't have apps for users to do small things, there was no way it was going to permeate an organization the way the Power Apps do. Charles: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I say two things are interesting. The first is, Power Platform has allowed us to help more users and more customers with business process transformation, which is what BizApps are all about. Right? Steve: Yeah. Charles: How do you make your sales processes better, your financial processes better, and Power Platform really turbocharged that. And that earned us credibility in a lot of those departments and with a lot of those users, and we have some great data about every user who adopts Power Platform is significantly more likely to adopt Dynamics within the next year or two. So we see that symbiosis working in a way which is incredibly customer-friendly, and it helps our business. Second thing is Power Platform has even helped us reimagine parts of the Dynamics apps themselves. And I think probably two of the best examples are the connectors, which are key to the Power Platform. Charles: You see the connectors starting to show up inside all these Dynamics apps, like Customer Insights uses Power Query for data ingestion, or Viva Sales even connects to Salesforce. So there's this amazing interoperability that we have, and also enabling the end-user. Our team built Viva Sales, even though it's not in the Dynamics or Power Platform brand. But it's this idea of having an integrated experience in Office for sellers, built on connectors and built on the Office integration. So it's changed the way you think about some products, and it's also helped us go expand our user base. Steve: Yeah. I saw I was on a PGI call with that yesterday. Very, very cool stuff. At the last PAC meeting, I was supposed to be on the Viva Sales round table, but I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds boring. I think I'm going to go to this one." And I really, I went to the wrong one, I missed a good one. But you know where I am, right? I'm on the platform. Charles: Yep. Steve: And we're exploding. Our app is continuing to grow on the platform as a low-cost simpler alternative to Dynamics 365 for companies that aren't ready for that. And I'm always bugging you about, "Hey, that cool new feature you guys got in the first-party. When are we going to get that at the platform level? So ISVs, and people that are just building their own stuff from scratch, could take advantage of some of the syncs." We got the Outlook app a while ago, we've been getting some things. And when I saw Viva Sales, that was probably my only disappointment was that, at least as I understand it, it's hardwired to Dynamics or hardwired to Salesforce. And I get that trying to play those two against each other, but it's leaving guys like me out in the cold. Charles: Well, I'd say for Viva Sales, the intent is to support any CRM, and I really do mean that generally. And even customers, because there are customers out there that we talked to today who have homegrown CRMs, they coded 15 years ago. They have a whole dev team still working on it. The idea is to support interoperability with your account records, your lead records, your opportunity records, standard pipeline data. And to do that in a way which works through the connector. So today it'll earn V1, it'll only be Dynamics in Salesforce, but the intent is to make that be a general purpose adapter. And you could have a RapidStart CRM connector, which shows up and supports the contacts the way we want, and it would be connectable. That's not going to happen in the next three months, but that's the ambition. Steve: I can call you in four. Charles: I go down and said... What was that, in four Months? Steve: I can call you in four months. Charles: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I might not pick up the phone then in four months, no I'm just kidding. Because even talking about, if people are even on Seibal. We should be able to support them with their sales. Because the idea is, you shouldn't have to transform the seller experience at the same pace that you transform your core CRM, your core system of record, and that's just the way the world's moving. Steve: Well, I love the idea that one of the challenges that CRM has always had, of course, is user adoption. It's one more place they need to go to do something. Outlook app helped with that, getting data into CRM without them having to actually go to it. It seems like yet another way for people to engage with their CRM without actually realizing they're engaging with their CRM. Charles: Exactly. Yeah. It's almost like ambient... Yeah for sure. Sorry. Yeah. I say it's almost like ambient CRM basically. How do you make it so that, instead of the user goes to your CRM, the CRM goes to the user where they are. And the outlook app was the beginnings of that. Some of the Team's integrations we've done are the beginnings of that. And that Viva Sales and that whole Viva idea is how do you elevate it? So anywhere you go, your CRM data is accessible without you having to go to a different user interface. Steve: Very cool. Very cool. So I ask you every time we get on a call about exciting features that are coming up. And in particular, maybe even some features that have launched, that didn't take off the way you thought they would and people are just missing something. We have this problem with our app sometimes, people don't understand and so they don't move forward, and it would be perfect for them. And I'm sure there's lots of features and capabilities that you guys broke a sweat building, and know in your heart, this would be awesome, but people don't seem to be getting that. What's a good example of one of those? Charles: I'd say a product which we've had a capability, where we've had a lot of customer usage from a small number of customers, but very deeply and with huge impact, and we wish were with more customers, is probably Conversation Intelligence. I'm not sure if you've seen that around the Sales app, and where that actually will sit in inside of say a phone call or a meeting and help you generate action items, and summaries, and coaching, and help you understand sentiment, and listening and talk ratio. We've used that internally at Microsoft with great success. So our digital sales reps and the folks who work our phones, they are diehard fans. We have this amazing video we released a couple months ago where we actually went out and interviewed these digital sales reps and their managers, and they just were going on and on about how great it is. Charles: And that's rare where you hear that about a piece of technology for a seller. And we have a few other external customers that have gone through that same journey, where they have a thousand digital reps, 2000 digital reps using this and just in love with it. But it's not as pervasive as we thought it would be at this point. And it's one of those things where, it's a product discovery, and easing people into the capability, because then you got to go out of your way to enable it and configure it. So we're doing work now to simplify it, and make it more accessible to more users. And we're doing that partly through Viva Sales, like conversation intelligence, the major capability of Viva Sales. Charles: And the second thing is also, there's even some culture aspects to it. Because if you use it, it's generating transcripts and recordings of a call, and not everyone's necessarily super comfortable with that. So we're even working about how do you enable more features without having to record the call, and how do you enable capabilities without having to get a transcript? Or how do you make it more natural to say, "Hey, I have a sales co-pilot thing. Are you okay if I enable it?" So there's a lot of interesting things, it's never just a technology problem. It's also a discovery and a, I'd say, change culture management problem. Steve: Yeah. I think that's been the challenge with anything AI really. A lot of people, it seem to think it might be a little too futuristic. They look at the benefit and think that's really cool, but they have no idea how to get it. And AI just in general, doesn't feel that approachable to people, even though in certain cases, it's extremely approachable. You don't have to do anything, it's approaching you. So it's a learning curve, you got to wait until my generation dies off and then you guys will see. Charles: I don't have as myopic of you, as you Steve. But I would say that, the big thing that we have to do is, there's been this evolution of AI where the AI is going to be something that automates away what humans do. And what we've realized is, AI is not even remotely close to being able to do that. But what AI can do, is it can turbocharge the people that use it. And so what we're trying to do is, how do we go expose these AI capabilities in a way where you or anyone else who uses them feels so much more productive. And just like when you first got the ability to use PC or a spreadsheet, you're like, "How did I exist before?" We're hoping we'll get to the point where, once you start using some of these AI assistive capabilities, like we've done in Conversation Intelligence, you'll be like, "How did I ever do a customer call before? And I had to take notes on paper while listening as opposed to having the AI take notes for me?" Yeah, exactly. Steve: I'm terrible about that. I'll be chicken scratching over here while I'm talking to people, and then we get off the phone I look at and I can't understand a word I wrote. Charles: Yeah. I like post-it notes next to my desk where I'm always writing stuff down. Steve: Yeah. So what else cool's coming on the horizon that we should be... That sounds like the Conversational Intelligence has been around. Sounds like Viva Sales is going to really bring that to the masses, so that one's on a path. What are some other new things that we should pay attention to that you're able to talk about? Charles: Yeah. Another one of my favorite things, which we've started to reveal some capabilities going back to last Ignite, so November of 2021. And we have some big announcements planned for the second half of 2022, is the new Contact Center related capabilities inside of Dynamics Customer Service. We have Omnichannel, we announced integrated voice, the Nuance acquisition closed, and the Nuance contact center AI team joined my group to align with customer service and contact center. So there's a lot of really exciting innovation happening there. And I'm really excited about the potential to make it super easy to get a comprehensive customer engagement story, without having to wire up eight different pieces of technology and do a ton of different complex integrations. So that's a place where there's a lot of innovation, there's new capabilities, Omnichannel, Power Virtual Agent, even the same type of conversation intelligence applied to support cases, Nuance for their Gatekeeper, which is identity and authentication verification based on voice and biometrics. Charles: There's a lot of cool stuff in that space. And that's one of the places where so many of the customers we work with are trying to improve the customer experience, and to go reduce costs. So I say that's a place where we've had a lot of exciting announcements over the last six to nine months, and we have a whole bunch more planned for the next six to nine months. So I say, stay tuned. And I won't say more than that to avoid getting in trouble by leaking information. But I just say, that's a place to really pay close attention. Steve: Who knew call centers could be cool? Charles: Yeah, exactly. Who would have thought that I'd be talking about contact centers, and how it's the next generation or next frontier of AI applications in 2022. Steve: Oh, well. Well I do have to thank you guys for the low-code advances you've continued to make in that platform. It actually allowed us to launch a, I think we're the first ones to try this, a new Service as a Subscription. Which includes awesome includes deployment, customization, training, everything except development code, which as you know today in so many of these projects, there's so little, if any of that. Charles: Yeah. Steve: Just a few years ago, if you tried to offer something like this, it really would be little more than a support agreement. But now, we're deploying, we're building, we're customizing, we're building entire things for customers all on a monthly subscription. It's an interesting concept, and hopefully I don't go broke, but... Charles: But you know what, it's fascinating. I literally was talking about this with the Power Platform team this morning. About a future where we'll have more partners who are able to sell a comprehensive service agreement, which includes the cloud hosting licenses, but also some incremental custom development and also ongoing maintenance and support. And it'll be almost this whole new industry, which will push a lot of innovation to the edges of the ecosystem, right? Steve: Yep. Charles: Not built by Microsoft, built by partners who really understand particular regions, particular industries, or particular segments. Like y'all are targeting a space where we're not trying to go take Dynamics, CRM, and go bring it down there. You can go build a world-class experience on top of our platform and provide a very much all-in-one, which exactly serves the needs of that audience and that market. And we can stay focused on building the super horizontal platform, which has great performance, great usability, incredible power, those types of things. Steve: Yeah, it sounds great. I'm glad that we had the same idea you guys did. I'll let you know, in a few months, if it was a smart one. Time will tell. Charles: Yes. Yeah. Steve: So, how are the rest of the team doing? It seems like some folks have moved around a little bit in the org, who's moved where? Charles: Yeah. So one of the big things we've been really focused on the engineering side, for the engineering organization, is bringing together strength from a product perspective that target the same type of user. And for example, we have a new customer experience platform team underneath Lori Lamkin, who leads all of our Dynamic Sales apps. So the Core Sales and Viva Sales, as well as commerce, as well as marketing, as well as customer insights. And it's very much focused on revenue generation, customer journeys, customer experiences. And what's great is by bringing those assets together, we have a great answer for B2B customers, as well as B2C. Like if you want to have self service, no touch eCommerce experience with lightweight telesales, you can do that all with those sets of applications. If you want to do a high relationship, high touch B2B sales process, you can do all of that. You're not going to use commerce, but you're probably going to use customer insights and sales, and maybe a little bit of account-based marketing. So we brought together these things, which are solving similar problems under a single leader. And that way the engineering teams can go back and forth between these different places to finish out full end-to-end customer journeys. And so that's a big area that we've spent a lot of time on, and that's a place where it's really the biggest and fastest growing category for us in the Dynamics 365 application portfolio. So that's one interesting example. Jeff Comstock, folks may know him. He's been around Dynamics 365 for a while. He continues customer service, he leads omnichannel, he's done some of this great expansion around the contact center for us. Ray Smith leads our supply chain team. So that includes things like more supply chain. Steve: So Ray moved? Charles: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He by way of acquisition to SAP then moved. He worked in Dynamic Sales for a bit, where people may have known him. And now the supply chain, and really helping us be this new data driven, AI powered, supply chain story for core supply chain execution. Then we also had some exciting announcements around process advisor and the minor acquisition to help turbocharge that. Or Georg Glantschnig who leads our finance room of the house. And basically we call the room of the house, is the collection of products which focus on serving the CFO and the finance department. And that includes the Suplari acquisition, which we had done a couple years ago, as well as the Core Dynamics, 365 finance, HR, and project operations products. Charles: So you can see how we started to build these critical paths around particular departments and particular lines of businesses with our products. And in addition to that, we also of course have Power Platform to support all of it. So it's amazing to see these things come together and converge. And we've been on this incredible run of innovation around Dynamics. I was counting it earlier this year, 29 different products in Dynamics, and really coalesced around these specific areas where we have a lot of energy, and also very well understood. I'd say synergies between the products that we have. So I'd say exciting times. Very exciting times. Steve: Customers are starting to understand it better also. Business Applications was the same thing for a long time. Then it spent the last five years reinventing itself every month, and new things exploding out of Advanta. And I think a lot of customers were having trouble just keeping up with... It's like little whackamole for them. And it takes a little time for customers to absorb what's happening, and what it's for, or what it does, and then to adopt it. And we're seeing that now. We used to have to go out and promote Power Apps to people who didn't understand what this was, or why it was. And now it's the opposite. They always come to us, looking for Power Apps, looking at those sorts of things. So that understanding seems to have finally permeated down to the customer level. But boy, it took a while. Charles: Yeah. It warms my heart. And I would say one of my favorite books is by Jim Collins, 'Good to great.' I always recommend it to folks on my team to read it. And he talks about this idea of the flywheel. It takes time to get a flywheel spinning, for the first period of time it looks like it's barely moving, but then eventually it's going super fast and it's just a blur. And you need to be consistent, and convicted, and believe in the strategy and the approach. And what's amazing about BizApps is for the last four years, we've been on the same mission, the same vision, the same ambition. And we just spend all the folks in advance at turning that flywheel, turning that flywheel. And it's started to reach that blur phase where it's spinning so fast, you can't even see it. Charles: And this, this all started years and years ago with a ton of work, but we're really at that magical moment where customers know what Power Platform is. Customers know that Microsoft gets customer experience and customer engagement. They know that Microsoft can help them optimize their supply chain. And what the good news is once that thing is going, it really builds upon itself, and I think it'll only continue that momentum further. And my favorite story is, I used to always do these executive briefings at Microsoft where we have executives come in from our customers to Redmond and we have a briefing center. It's very nice. And I would always say, let me talk about Power Apps and low-code. Charles: And everybody gives me a blank stare like, "What the heck is Power Apps? What the heck is low-code?" I go in those meetings now, and people know what Power Apps is, and they know the low-code strategy. And the only question is, "how?". Not, "should I?" Or "if?" "How do I do it with you, Microsoft?" And so different from three years ago. So anyway, so you're exactly right. A long winded answer, but I'd say it's exciting to see all of these things come together, and the benefits of just consistently repeating a message that resonates with customers. Steve: I would say at least three quarters of my customer calls today, they're bringing up right out of the gate, "We don't want any development. We want to do everything low-code, no code." So this is coming from the customer side where we used to have to explain to them what low-code, no code meant. Now they're coming demanding, "I only want low-code, no code." I think that they've come to this realization that, while low-code, no code might not be easy enough for your mom to do, it doesn't require a developer, and code does require developer. And once you've got this little blob of code in your environment, it's a black box for you. And so they don't want any of these black boxes. They want everything to be accessible. Steve: Use your knowledge to build us something complex out of low-code, but then I can still go back in there later and manipulate it, adjust it myself, or our team. So they have absolutely bought into that. And I know we originally, a lot of us partners were concerned early on that this was going to reduce the workload for partners, while our workload is more than it has ever been. Although the developers on the bench don't stay as busy as they used to. We've completely pivoted the team from developer heavy to now, we haven't even got a good title for them. A citizen developer doesn't sound right. We tell customers that, but citizen developers is what we've got so... Charles: This guy we found on the street, or gal found on the street, we just asked them to start building out. But no, it makes sense. There is almost this new role which is, it's not just pure coding expertise, it's technical development concept expertise. But even more importantly is business process and solution expertise. And that fusion of those two skill sets, that's the magic. That's what makes it special, because you understand it. Steve: Yeah. The challenge that we have with this brand new model that we just launched, because, first of all, being the first one out there is not always good because people have no idea what you're talking about. They're trying to compare it to other things. But we've got this little caveat that it's all you can eat, everything, except development code. And trying to define what that is hasn't been easy, and you get these customers coming in, "Oh, we're going to need a lot of customization. So this isn't going to work for us." And so you may need a lot of customizations, but you don't need any "development code". Charles: Yeah. Steve: And getting them to grasp that development code and customization are not synonymous, not even close. Charles: Exactly. Steve: Development code is a very small component today of customization. And once I think that they understand that, then we'll probably see more partners coming into a model like this. Because it makes a lot of sense for customers, makes a lot of sense for partners. Charles: Yeah. And if you go look at building solutions that last a decade, this is to your point, code is this little black box opaque thing, which is hard to maintain over time. If it's no code, low-code, it's easy to open it up and reconfigure as business requirements change. And it's how you build solutions that last. And I think we're getting to the phase with business software where customers are expecting to make long term technology bets. You're not going to replace your CRM every five years from now on. It's like building manufacturing plants and warehouses. These are big investments that you need to be able to amortize over a long time, to justify. And so I think to your point, no code doesn't mean no flexibility, no customization, also doesn't mean no agility. It just means you're doing it in a different way. Couldn't say it better myself. Steve: All right. Cool. Hey, listen, I'm going to let you go. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day here when I caught you, to chat with me about this stuff, always fun talking to you Charles. I'm going to call you in four months and ask you about Viva Sales for the platform. Charles: Sounds good. Sounds good. Steve: I've got you on record there. Charles: So really appreciate you taking the time, giving me a ring, Steve. Hope you have a great rest of the summer. Steve: All right, man. Have a good one. Charles: Yep. You too.  

Welcome to episode 33 Of our little podcast all about woodwork, making things and having lots of fun. A romantic week that sees three video releases. This week we answer your questions and we've agreed that in five years time we're all going to live together on Pierres Farm in Sweeden! In this episode Andy Despite a week of Mishaps with magnets and drill bits the electrical shelf is all done and the video is out on YouTube, and guess what the bed build is finally now painted (by Andys Wife)! Steve Well move over Steven Spielberg there's a new Steve in town with Steve releasing his first YouTube video. Steve is overwhelmed by all the nice comments and support so big thanks. On with the sequel. Pierre Has been exploring the middle of Lidl looking content inspiration and he found a lathe but no he didn't buy it. He has upset people with his comments on the imperial system in his latest video but he doesn't care. Our Obsessions this Week Steve Steve is obsessed with the TV programme The Great Pottery Throw Down. Its like bake off but with people throwing pots and making fantastic builds with clay including a fully working flushable toilet its on Channel 4 in the UK and on instagram @potterythrow Andy He's obsessed with a YouTube channel by Aidin Robbins helping you make your video look cinematic, helping with editing, colour grading and being better at making great videos. He's also on instagram @aidinrobbins Pierre He's gone overboard with the winter Olympics and he's watching the Swedish speed skater Nils van der Poel win gold in the 5000 and 10,000 meters speed skating. He's loving the winter Olympics. The Three Northern Makers Are Andy @potato_woodworks on instagram and Potato Woodworks on YouTube Andy who is Swiss now lives near Stockholm in Sweden Steve @stevebellcreates on instagram and now on YouTube as Steve Bell Cretes Steve lives in the beautiful North Yorkshire in the UK Pierre @theswedishmaker on Instagram and The Swedish Maker on YouTube Pierre lives near Gothenburg in Sweden We can be found on instagram @threeNorthernMakers so check us out We also have our own woodworking/makers community on Discord.com We will be releasing a new episode every Sunday morning so please subscribe like and leave a review to hear our humble ramblings about making things and all that life throws at us If you have any questions or comments please email the show at threenorthernmakers@gmail.com

Title: The Hateful Eight, a Reinvented WesternDescription: Steve is joined again by Josh Cohen of the Unfiltered Podcast and Eyewitness History Podcast to talk about the 2015 Quentin Tarantino film, The Hateful Eight. We discuss how this movie is part western, part thriller, Agatha Christie mystery with a dash of Alfred Hitchcock. Learn More About our Guest:Josh Cohen of The Eyewitness History Podcast and Unfiltered PodcastUnfilteredpodcast.blogspot.comhttps://www.speakpipe.com/eyewitnesshistoryYou can learn more about Beyond the Big Screen and subscribe at all these great places:www.beyondthebigscreen.comClick to Subscribe:https://www.spreaker.com/show/4926576/episodes/feedemail: steve@atozhistorypage.comwww.beyondthebigscreen.comhttps://www.patreon.com/historyofthepapacyParthenon Podcast Network Home:parthenonpodcast.comOn Social Media: https://www.facebook.com/groups/atozhistorypagehttps://www.facebook.com/HistoryOfThePapacyPodcasthttps://twitter.com/atozhistoryMusic Provided by:"Crossing the Chasm" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/Image Credits:By http://www.impawards.com/2015/hateful_eight_ver10.html, Fair use, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=47218421Begin Transcript:Thank you again for listening to Beyond the Big Screen podcast. We are a member of the Parthenon Podcast network. Of course, a big thanks goes out to Josh Cohen host of the Unfiltered podcast and the upcoming Parthenon podcast, Eyewitness History Podcast. Josh is the content editor for the History on the net website. Links to learn more about Josh and the Unfiltered Podcast along with is new Eyewitness Podcast can be found at the unfilteredpodcast.blogspot.com or in the Show Notes.You can support beyond the big screen on Patreon and Subscribe Star. By joining on Patreon and Subscribe star, you help keep Beyond the Big Screen going and get many great benefits. Go to patreon dot com forward slash beyond the big screen or subscribe star dot com forward slash beyond the big screen dot com to learn more.Another way to support Beyond the big screen is to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. These reviews really help me know what you think of the show and help other people learn about Beyond the Big screen. More about the Parthenon Podcast Network can be found at Parthenonpodcast.com. You can learn more about Beyond the Big Screen, great movies and stories so great they should be movies on various social media platforms by searching for A to z history. Links to all this and more can be found at beyond the big screen dot com. I thank you for joining me again, Beyond the big Screen.Steve: [00:00:00] it's driven by strong characters, plot twists, and as a warning, a great deal of violence. I think if you're at all familiar with Quentin Tarantino films, you have to realize there's violence in them. So I know I'm really excited to talk about this movie and I'm really excited to talk with Josh again.About Quentin Tarantino films. We're going to go through this whole filmography. So we'll, uh, we've started now. We're here at the hateful eight. Uh, just to get an overall view before we dive into the overview, what did you think about this movie in particular?Josh: Yeah, Well, first off, Steve, thanks for having me back. I had such a blast in our last. Our last podcast and I couldn't be happier that we're doing a string of these. Um, if it's, if it's Quinn, Terentino's Tino, I can always make the time. Um, yeah. W w when I thought of it, it probably won't be a surprise to you, uh, that I loved the movie, which did actually surprise me somewhat given the texture [00:01:00] of the movie itself.I I'm sure we'll talk about this The movie is set up very much like a play in a sense that there's only a few characters and there's only really one. Um, for, for the action to take place. And by and large, I tend to, despite smoothies, I'd only have one setting. I can never shake this feeling of being cheated.Um, I watched a horrible movie way back in the day called the boss's daughter, but Terry Reed and Ashton Kutcher. And that was the, it was one, one scene, basically the entire movie. And I'll never forget how cheated I felt. So I came into it prejudice, but of course, Quentin Tarantino, uh, healed me of that.Steve: Well, this is a part of the context too, in which I think for me what that one, that one setting was kind of a. Quaint, but it really threw me back to the Alfred Hitchcock, like rope where it's all, everything happens in that one room or two rooms and [00:02:00] the, and the apartment. And I thought that that was. A really fun way to do it.I thought it was for this format. It was engaging. I could see it. If it was an Ashton Kutcher movie, it might be a different stuff. And Tara Reed movie, it might be a different story. I don't recall seeing that, but I think that the way this was filmed, the setting and the, the whole concept, it, it worked.Josh: Well, Yeah.that's a really good point. I mean, if you watch the movie, um, he uses multiple cameras. Uh, obviously he does do the 70 millimeter and he creates depth in the scene with the characters. Um, you see the other characters in the background of. Camera's focused on major Marcus Warren for instance.Right. Um, but uh, I think he does enough tricks with the camera and with perspective to make you think that you're in multiple areas, uh, you could, you know, you're, you're watching, uh, uh, Tim Roth as Oswaldo. Mowbray do his thing while you're watching Walton, Goggins, uh, as the [00:03:00] sheriff, supposedly, maybe we'll talk, um, do do his thing in the corner and you can be a fool by thinking it wasn't occurring in the same way. Steve: So as usual, we'll get into specifics and plenty of spoilers in this conversation, but just to set the stage, this movie is a Western it's a, it's a Western, it's a mystery. It's a one setting play just to get us set up. Kurt Russell. He has a character named John, the hang man, Ruth. Who's a bounty hunter and he's traveling on a stage coach with his bounty.And this is the one scene, the stage coach traveling through the snow as the one piece. That's not set in this one building, but we'll get to that. He has as bounty, Daisy, Dom, or guru played by Jennifer, Jason. Ruth is in a hurry to get her to this fictional town of red rock Wyoming. In order to collect this $10,000 bounty and beat the blizzard.That's rolling in. As they're traveling, they run upon major [00:04:00] MarkWest Warren played by Samuel L. Jackson, who can, who stuck on the side of the road. He convinces Ruth to let him into the. Stage coach, because he also has three bounties who are dead, who he wants to bring to red rock. They finally set off again.They run into Chris Mannix as played by Walter Goggins. As Josh mentioned, who claims to be the new sheriff of red rock, they take him in as well. Finally, they stopped and Minnie's haberdashery. Traveler's rest of sword for refuge from this blizzard. And that's where things get interesting. There's a whole new set of character herders there for four or five, five comma off of the, the stagecoach.And then there's several other characters. We'll get into the details of that who are at many's have it. Ashery and this is. Well, this is particularly where the movie gets interesting because all sorts of unusual [00:05:00] alliances forum fall apart. And so, I mean really where to begin, I would say one place, um, where, where I thought it might be interesting to start is as a real Quintin Tarantino fanatic, you might say, how do you think that this one fits in with his larger body of work?As of this point in 2022, it's his. Second to last movie a once upon a time. And Hollywood's his latest. So this was the movie, just to previous to that. It came out in 2015. So he's had, um, at that 0.8 movies that he's produced and directed to that point. What do you, how do you think it fits in?Josh: Um, well, I mean, it was obviously critically, critically and commercially well-received. Uh, one thing that caught my eye when I, when I looked at the numbers, uh, was that it broke Terentino's streak of having, um, Movies that became as high as grossing. And I better give some context for that. Uh, he comes out with, uh, Inglorious [00:06:00] bastards to be followed by Django and chain.When Inglorious bastards came out, it was his highest grossing movie ever. It made the most money for, for him. That was his record. And then Django came out and it was the exact same thing that became his highest grossing painfully broke that streak. Um, and I, I can never quite shake this feeling. That's it's the one second.Uh, play that that may have caused an issue for audiences. I'm not quite sure as far as where it fits in. Um, as you point out, it's certainly genre, blending, uh, bending. Yeah. That'll work, uh, genre. Yeah. Blending or bending works. Um, uh, and one, wouldn't be watching a Tarantino movie if one wasn't sufficiently confused of what the genre was.Um, and, uh, yeah, we see Tarantino, uh, play a little bit further with his, that bounty hunter fetish that we were talking about in the, in the last podcast, starting with Django, moving through April eight and obviously ending at one point in?time in home. [00:07:00] Steve: Maybe let's since it is this one setting play essentially at Minnie's haberdashery, maybe explain that one setting to us because that setting is it. The character in and of itself.Josh: Yeah, Steve, you took the words out of my mouth, the setting and the environment. So it's the haberdashery in the storm, the storm that in crouches, on, on the haberdashery, like. This monster, it almost has a presence in and of itself. Um, well the habit ashtray as you point out is, is a refuge from the storm for all of these characters.

In this episode, we cover:00:00:00 - Reflections on the Episode/Introduction 00:03:06 - Steve's Bio00:07:30 - The 5 W's of Servers and their Future00:14:00 - Hardware and Software00:21:00 - Oxide Computer 00:30:00 - Investing in Oxide and the Public Cloud00:36:20 - Oxide's Offerings to Customers 00:43:30 - Continious Improvement00:49:00 - Oxide's Future and OutroLinks: Oxide Computer: https://oxide.computer Perfectlyboring.com: https://perfectlyboring.com TranscriptJason: Welcome to the Perfectly Boring podcast, a show where we talk to the people transforming the world's most boring industries. I'm Jason Black, general partner at RRE ventures.Will: And I'm Will Coffield, general partner at Riot Ventures.Jason: Today's boring topic of the day: servers.Will: Today, we've got Steve Tuck, the co-founder and CEO of Oxide Computer, on the podcast. Oxide is on a mission to fundamentally transform the private cloud and on-premise data center so that companies that are not Google, or Microsoft, or Amazon can have hyper scalable, ultra performant infrastructure at their beck and call. I've been an investor in the company for the last two or three years at this point, but Jason, this is your first time hearing the story from Steve and really going deep on Oxide's mission and place in the market. Curious what your initial thoughts are.Jason: At first glance, Oxide feels like a faster horse approach to an industry buying cars left and right. But the shift in the cloud will add $140 billion in new spend every year over the next five years. But one of the big things that was really interesting in the conversation was that it's actually the overarching pie that's expanding, not just demand for cloud but at the same rate, a demand for on-premise infrastructure that's largely been stagnant over the years. One of the interesting pivot points was when hardware and software were integrated back in the mainframe era, and then virtual machines kind of divorced hardware and software at the server level. Opening up the opportunity for a public cloud that reunified those two things where your software and hardware ran together, but the on-premises never really recaptured that software layer and have historically struggled to innovate on that domain.Will: Yeah, it's an interesting inflection point for the enterprise, and for basically any company that is operating digitally at this point, is that you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can scale infinitely on the public cloud but you make certain sacrifices from a performance security and certainly from an expense standpoint, or you can go to what is available commercially right now and you can cobble together a Frankenstein-esque solution from a bunch of legacy providers like HP, and Dell, and SolarWinds, and VMware into a MacGyvered together on-premise data center that is difficult to operate for companies where infrastructure isn't, and they don't want it to be, their core competency. Oxide is looking to step into that void and provide a infinitely scalable, ultra-high-performance, plug-and-play rack-scale server for everybody to be able to own and operate without needing to rent it from Google, or AWS, or Microsoft.Jason: Well, it doesn't sound very fun, and it definitely sounds [laugh] very boring. So, before we go too deep, let's jump into the interview with Steve.Will: Steve Tuck, founder and CEO of Oxide Computer. Thank you for joining us today.Steve: Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.Will: And I think maybe a great way to kick things off here for listeners would be to give folks a baseline of your background, sort of your bio, leading up to founding Oxide.Steve: Sure. Born and raised in the Bay Area. Grew up in a family business that was and has been focused on heating and air conditioning over the last 100-plus years, Atlas. And went to school and then straight out of school, went into the computer space. Joined Dell computer company in 1999, which was a pretty fun and exciting time at Dell.I think that Dell had just crossed over to being the number one PC manufacturer in the US. I think number two worldwide at Compaq. Really just got to take in and appreciate the direct approach that Dell had taken in a market to stand apart, working directly with customers not pushing everything to the channel, which was customary for a lot of the PC vendors at the time. And while I was there, you had the emergence of—in the enterprise—hardware virtualization company called VMware that at the time, had a product that allowed one to drive a lot more density on their servers by way of virtualizing the hardware that people were running. And watching that become much more pervasive, and working with companies as they began to shift from single system, single app to virtualized environments.And then at the tail end, just watching large tech companies emerge and demand a lot different style computers than those that we had been customarily making at Dell. And kind of fascinated with just what these companies like Facebook, and Google, and Amazon, and others were doing to reimagine what systems needed to look like in their hyperscale environments. One of the companies that was in the tech space, Joyent, a cloud computing company, is where I went next. Was really drawn in just to velocity and the innovation that was taking place with these companies that were providing abstractions on top of hardware to make it much easier for customers to get access to the compute, and the storage, and the networking that they needed to build and deploy software. So, spent—after ten years at Dell, I was at Joyent for ten years. That is where I met my future co-founders, Bryan Cantrill who was at Joyent, and then also Jess Frazelle who we knew working closely while she was at Docker and other stops.But spent ten years as a public cloud infrastructure operator, and we built that service out to support workloads that ran the gamut from small game developers up to very large enterprises, and it was really interesting to learn about and appreciate what this infrastructure utility business looked like in public cloud. And that was also kind of where I got my first realization of just how hard it was to run large fleets of the systems that I had been responsible for providing back at Dell for ten years. We were obviously a large customer of Dell, and Supermicro, and a number of switch manufacturers. It was eye-opening just how much was lacking in the remaining software to bind together hundreds or thousands of these machines.A lot of the operational tooling that I wished had been there and how much we were living at spreadsheets to manage and organize and deploy this infrastructure. While there, also got to kind of see firsthand what happened as customers got really, really big in the public cloud. And one of those was Samsung, who was a very large AWS customer, got so large that they needed to figure out what their path on-premise would look like. And after going through the landscape of all the legacy enterprise solutions, deemed that they had to go buy a cloud company to complete that journey. And they bought Joyent. Spent three years operating the Samsung cloud, and then that brings us to two years ago, when Jess, Bryan, and I started Oxide Computer.Will: I think maybe for the benefit of our listeners, it would be interesting to have you define—and what we're talking about today is the server industry—and to maybe take a step back and in your own words, define what a server is. And then it would be really interesting to jump into a high-level history of the server up until today, and maybe within that, where the emergence of the public cloud came from.Steve: You know, you'll probably get different definitions of what a server is depending on who you ask, but at the highest level, a server differs from a typical PC that you would have in your home in a couple of ways, and more about what it is being asked to do that drives the requirements of what one would deem a server. But if you think about a basic PC that you're running in your home, a laptop, a desktop, a server has a lot of the same components: they have CPUs, and DRAM memory that is for non-volatile storage, and disks that are storing things in a persistent way when you shut off your computer that actually store and retain the data, and a network card so that you can connect to either other machines or to the internet. But where servers start to take on a little bit different shape and a little bit different set of responsibilities is the workloads that they're supporting. Servers, the expectations are that they are going to be running 24/7 in a highly reliable and highly available manner. And so there are technologies that have gone into servers, that ECC memory to ensure that you do not have memory faults that lose data, more robust components internally, ways to manage these things remotely, and ways to connect these to other servers, other computers.Servers, when running well, are things you don't really need to think about, are doing that, are running in a resilient, highly available manner. In terms of the arc of the server industry, if you go back—I mean, there's been servers for many, many, many, many decades. Some of the earlier commercially available servers were called mainframes, and these were big monolithic systems that had a lot of hardware resources at the time, and then were combined with a lot of operational and utilization software to be able to run a variety of tasks. These were giant, giant machines; these were extraordinarily expensive; you would typically find them only running in universities or government projects, maybe some very, very large enterprises in the'60s and'70s. As more and more software was being built and developed and run, the market demand and need for smaller, more accessible servers that were going to be running this common software, were driving machines that were coming out—still hardware plus software—from the likes of IBM and DEC and others.Then you broke into this period in the '80s where, with the advent of x86 and the rise of these PC manufacturers—the Dells and Compaqs and others—this transition to more commodity server systems. A focus, really a focus on hardware only, and building these commodity x86 servers that were less expensive, that were more accessible from an economics perspective, and then ultimately that would be able to run arbitrary software, so one could run any operating system or any body of software that they wanted on these commodity servers. When I got to Dell in 1999, this is several years into Dell's foray into the server market, and you would buy a server from Dell, or from HP, or from Compaq, or IBM, then you would go find your software that you were going to run on top of that to stitch these machines together. That was, kind of, that server virtualization era, in the '90s, 2000s. As I mentioned, technology companies were looking at building more scalable systems that were aggregating resources together and making it much easier for their customers to access the storage, the networking that they needed, that period of time in which the commodity servers and the software industry diverged, and you had a bunch of different companies that were responsible for either hardware or the software that would bring these computers together, these large hyperscalers said, “Well, we're building purpose-built infrastructure services for our constituents at, like, a Facebook. That means we really need to bind this hardware and software together in a single product so that our software teams can go very quickly and they can programmatically access the resources that they need to deploy software.”So, they began to develop systems that looked more monolithic, kind of, rack-level systems that were driving much better efficiency from a power and density perspective, and hydrating it with software to provide infrastructure services to their businesses. And so you saw, what started out in the computer industry is these monolithic hardware plus software products that were not very accessible because they were so expensive and so large, but real products that were much easier to do real work on, to this period where you had a disaggregation of hardware and software where the end-user bore the responsibility of tying these things together and binding these into those infrastructure products, to today, where the largest hyperscalers in the market have come to the realization that building hardware and software together and designing and developing what modern computers should look like, is commonplace, and we all know that well or can access that as public cloud computing.Jason: And what was the driving force behind that decoupling? Was it the actual hardware vendors that didn't want to have to deal with the software? Or is that more from a customer-facing perspective where the customers themselves felt that they could eke out the best advantage by developing their own software stack on top of a relatively commodity unopinionated hardware stack that they could buy from a Dell or an HP?Steve: Yeah, I think probably both, but one thing that was a driver is that these were PC companies. So, coming out of the'80s companies that were considered, quote-unquote, “The IBM clones,” Dell, and Compaq, and HP, and others that were building personal computers and saw an opportunity to build more robust personal computers that could be sold to customers who were running, again, just arbitrary software. There wasn't the desire nor the DNA to go build that full software stack and provide that out as an opinionated appliance or product. And I think then, part of it was also like, hey, if we just focus on the hardware, then got this high utility artifact that we can go sell into all sorts of arbitrary software use cases. You know, whether this is going to be a single server or three servers that's going to go run in a closet of cafe, or it's going to be a thousand servers that are running in one of these large enterprise data centers, we get to build the same box, and that box can run underneath any different type of software. By way of that, what you ultimately get in that scenario is you do have to boil things down to the lowest common denominators to make sure that you've got that compatibility across all the different software types.Will: Who were the primary software vendors that were helping those companies take commodity servers and specialize into particular areas? And what's their role now and how has that transformed in light of the public cloud and the offerings that are once again generalized, but also reintegrated from a hardware and software perspective, just not maybe in your own server room, but in AWS, or Azure, or GCP?Steve: Yeah, so you have a couple layers of software that are required in the operation of hardware, and then all the way up through what we would think about as running in a rack, a full rack system today. You've first got firmware, and this is the software that runs on the hardware to be able to connect the different hardware components, to boot the system, to make sure that the CPU can talk to its memory, and storage, and the network. That software may be a surprise to some, but that firmware that is essential to the hardware itself is not made by the server manufacturer themselves. That was part of this outsourcing exercise in the '80s where not only the upstack software that runs on server systems but actually some of the lower-level downstack software was outsourced to these third-party firmware shops that would write that software. And at the time, probably made a lot of sense and made things a lot easier for the entire ecosystem.You know, the fact that's the same model today, and given how proprietary that is and, you know, where that can actually lead to some vulnerabilities and security issues is more problematic. You've got firmware, then you've got the operating system that runs on top of the server. You have a hypervisor, which is the emulation layer that translates that lower-level hardware into a number of virtual machines that applications can run in. You have control plane software that connects multiple systems together so that you can have five or ten or a hundred, or a thousand servers working in a pool, in a fleet. And then you've got higher-level software that allows a user to carve up the resources that they need to identify the amount of compute, and memory, and storage that they want to spin up.And that is exposed to the end-user by way of APIs and/or a user interface. And so you've got many layers of software that are running on top of hardware, and the two in conjunction are all there to provide infrastructure services to the end-user. And so when you're going to the public cloud today, you don't have to worry about any of that, right? Both of you have probably spun up infrastructure on the public cloud, but they call it 16 digits to freedom because you just swipe a credit card and hit an API, and within seconds, certainly within a minute, you've got readily available virtual servers and services that allow you to deploy software quickly and manage a project with team members. And the kinds of things that used to take days, weeks, or even months inside an enterprise can be done now in a matter of minutes, and that's extraordinarily powerful.But what you don't see is all the integration of these different components running, very well stitched together under the hood. Now, for someone who's deploying their own infrastructure in their own data center today, that sausage-making is very evident. Today, if you're not a cloud hyperscaler, you are having to go pick a hardware vendor and then figure out your operating system and your control plane and your hypervisor, and you have to bind all those things together to create a rack-level system. And it might have three or four different vendors and three or four different products inside of it, and ultimately, you have to bear the responsibility of knitting all that together.Will: Because those products were developed in silos from each other?Steve: Yeah.Will: They were not co-developed. You've got hardware that was designed in a silo separate from oftentimes it sounds like the firmware and all of the software for operating those resources.Steve: Yeah. The hardware has a certain set of market user requirements, and then if you're a Red Hat or you're a VMware, you're talking to your customers about what they need and you're thinking at the software layer. And then you yourself are trying to make it such that it can run across ten or twenty different types of hardware, which means that you cannot do things that bind or provide hooks into that underlying hardware which, unfortunately, is where a ton of value comes from. You can see an analog to this in thinking about the Android ecosystem compared to the Apple ecosystem and what that experience is like when all that hardware and software is integrated together, co-designed together, and you have that iPhone experience. Plenty of other analogs in the automotive industry, with Tesla, and health equipment, and Peloton and others, but when hardware and software—we believe certainly—when hardware and software is co-designed together, you get a better artifact and you get a much, much better user experience. Unfortunately, that is just not the case today in on-prem computing.Jason: So, this is probably a great time to transition to Oxide. Maybe to keep the analogy going, the public cloud is that iPhone experience, but it's just running in somebody else's data center, whether that's AWS, Azure, or one of the other public clouds. You're developing iOS for on-prem, for the people who want to run their own servers, which seems like kind of a countertrend. Maybe you can talk us through the dynamics in that market as it stands today, and how that's growing and evolving, and what role Oxide Computer plays in that, going forward.Steve: You've got this what my co-founder Jess affectionately refers to as ‘infrastructure privilege' in the hyperscalers, where they have been able to apply the money, and the time, and the resources to develop this, kind of, iPhone stack, instead of thinking about a server as a single 1U unit, or single machine, had looked at, well, what does a rack—which is the case that servers are slotted into in these large data centers—what does rack-level computing look like and where can we drive better power efficiency? Where can we drive better density? How can we drive much better security at scale than the commodity server market today? And doing things like implementing hardware Roots of Trust and Chain of Trust, so that you can ensure the software that is running on your machines is what is intended to be running there. The blessing is that we all—the market—gets access to that modern infrastructure, but you can only rent it.The only way you can access it is to rent, and that means that you need to run in one of the three mega cloud providers' data centers in those locations, that you are having to operate in a rental fee model, which at scale can become very, very prohibitively expensive. Our fundamental belief is that the way that these hyperscale data centers have been designed and these products have been designed certainly looks a lot more like what modern computers should look like, but the rest of the market should have access to the same thing. You should be able to buy and own and deploy that same product that runs inside a Facebook data center, or Apple data center, or Amazon, or a Google data center, you should be able to take that product with you wherever your business needs to run. A bit intimidating at the top because what we signed up for was building hardware, and taking a clean sheet paper approach to what a modern server could look like. There's a lot of good hardware innovation that the hyperscalers have helped drive; if you go back to 2010, Facebook pioneered being a lot more open about these modern open hardware systems that they were developing, and the Open Compute Project, OCP, has been a great collection point for these hyperscalers investing in these modern rack-level systems and doing it in the open, thinking about what the software is that is required to operate modern machines, importantly, in a way that does not sink the operations teams of the enterprises that are running them.Again, I think one of the things that was just so stunning to me, when I was at Joyent—we were running these machines, these commodity machines, and stitching together the software at scale—was how much of the organization's time was tied up in the deployment, and the integration, and the operation of this. And not just the organization's time, but actually our most precious resource, our engineering team, was having to spend so much time figuring out where a performance problem was coming from. For example in [clear throat], man, those are the times in which you really are pounding your fist on the table because you will try and go downstack to figure out, is this in the control plane? Is this in the firmware? Is this in the hardware?And commodity systems of today make it extremely, extremely difficult to figure that out. But what we set out to do was build same rack-level system that you might find in a hyperscaler data center, complete with all the software that you need to operate it with the automation required for high availability and low operational overhead, and then with a CloudFront end, with a set of services on the front end of that rack-level system that delight developers, that look like the cloud experience that developers have come to love and depend on in the public cloud. And that means everything is programmable, API-driven services, all the hardware resources that you need—compute, memory, and storage—are actually a pool of resources that you can carve up and get access to and use in a very developer-friendly way. And the developer tools that your software teams have come to depend on just work and all the tooling that these developers have invested so much time in over the last several years, to be able to automate things, to be able to deploy software faster are resident in that product. And so it is definitely kind of hardware and software co-designed, much like some of the original servers long, long, long ago, but modernized with the hardware innovation and open software approach that the cloud has ushered in.Jason: And give us a sense of scale; I think we're so used to seeing the headline numbers of the public cloud, you know, $300-and-some billion dollars today, adding $740-some billion over the next five years in public cloud spend. It's obviously a massive transformation, huge amount of green space up for grabs. What's happening in the on-prem market where your Oxide Computer is playing and how do you think about the growth in that market relative to a public cloud?Steve: It's funny because as Will can attest, as we were going through and fundraising, the prevalent sentiment was, like, everything's going to the public cloud. As we're talking to the folks in the VC community, it was Amazon, Microsoft, and Google are going to own the entirety of compute. We fundamentally disagreed because, A, we've lived it, and b, we went out as we were starting out and talked to dozens and dozens of our peers in the enterprise, who said, “Our cloud ambitions are to be able to get 20, 30, 40% of our workloads out there, and then we still have 60, 70% of our infrastructure that is going to continue to run in our own data centers for reasons including regulatory compliance, latency, security, and in a lot of cases, cost.” It's not possible for these enterprises that are spending half a billion, a billion dollars a year to run all of their infrastructure in the public cloud. What you've seen on-premises, and it depends on who you're turning to, what sort of poll and research you're turning to, but the on-prem market, one is growing, which I think surprises a lot of folks; the public cloud market, of course, it's growing like gangbusters, and that does not surprise a lot of folks, but what we see is that the combined market of on-prem and cloud, you can call it—if on-premise on the order of $100 billion and cloud is on the order of $150 billion, you are going to see enormous growth in both places over the next 10, 15 years.These markets are going to look very, very small compared to where they will be because one of the biggest drivers of whether it's public cloud or on-prem infrastructure, is everything shifting to digital formats. The digitalization that is just all too commonplace, described everywhere. But we're still very, very early in that journey. I think that if you look at the global GDP, less than 10% of the global GDP is on the internet, is online. Over the coming 10, 20 years, as that shifts to 20%, 30%, you're seeing exponential growth. And again, we believe and we have heard from the market that is representative of that $100 billion that investments in the public cloud and on-prem is going to continue to grow much, much more as we look forward.Will: Steve, I really appreciate you letting listeners know how special a VC I am.Steve: [laugh].Will: [laugh]. It was really important point that I wanted to make sure we hit on.Steve: Yeah, should we come back to that?Will: Yeah, yeah yeah—Steve: Yeah, let's spend another five or ten minutes on that.Will: —we'll revisit that. We'll revisit that later. But when we're talking about the market here, one of the things that got us so excited about investing in Oxide is looking at the existing ecosystem of on-prem commercial providers. I think if you look at the public cloud, there are fierce competitors there, with unbelievably sophisticated operations and product development. When you look at the on-prem ecosystem and who you would go to if you were going to build your own data center today, it's a lot of legacy companies that have started to optimize more for, I would say, profitability over the last couple of years than they have for really continuing to drive forward from an R&D and product standpoint.Would love maybe for you to touch on briefly, what does competition for you look like in the on-prem ecosystem? I think it's very clear who you're competing with, from a public cloud perspective, right? It's Microsoft, Google, Amazon, but who are you going up against in the on-prem ecosystem?Steve: Yeah. And just one note on that. We don't view ourselves as competing with Amazon, Google, and Microsoft. In fact, we are ardent supporters of cloud in the format, namely this kind of programmable API-fronted infrastructure as being the path of the future of compute and storage and networking. That is the way that, in the future, most software should be deployed to, and operated on, and run.We just view the opportunity for, and what customers are really, really excited about is having those same benefits of public cloud, but in a format in which they can own it and being able to have access to that everywhere their business needs to run, so that it's not, you know, do I get all this velocity, and this innovation, and this simplicity when I rent public cloud, or do I own my infrastructure and have to give up a lot of that? But to the first part of your question, I think the first issue is that it isn't one vendor that you are talking about what is the collection of vendors that I go to to get servers, software to make my servers talk to each other, switches to network together these servers, and additional software to operate, and manage, and monitor, and update. And there's a lot of complexity there. And then when you take apart each one of those different sets of vendors in the ecosystem, they're not designing together, so you've got these kind of data boundaries and these product boundaries that start to become really, really real when you're operating at scale, and when you're running critical applications to your business on these machines. And you find yourself spending an enormous amount of the company's time just knitting this stuff together and operating it, which is all time lost that could be spent adding additional features to your own product and better competing with your competitors.And so I think that you have a couple of things in play that make it hard for customers running infrastructure on-premises, you've got that dynamic that it's a fractured ecosystem, that these things are not designed together, that you have this kit car that you have to assemble yourself and it doesn't even come with a blueprint of the particular car design that you're building. I think that you do have some profit-taking in that it is very monopolized, especially on the software side where you've only got a couple of large players that know that there are few alternatives for companies. And so you are seeing these ELAs balloon, and you are seeing practices that look a lot like Oracle Enterprise software sales that are really making this on-prem experience not very economically attractive. And so our approach is, hardware should come with all the software required to operate it, it should be tightly integrated, the software should be all open-source. Something we haven't talked about.I think open-source is playing an enormous role in accelerating the cloud landscape and the technology landscapes. We are going to be developing our software in an open manner, and truly believe whether it's from a security view through to the open ecosystem, that it is imperative that software be open. And then we are integrating the switch into that rack-level product so that you've got networking baked in. By doing that, it opens up a whole new vector of value to the customer where, for example, you can see for the first time what is the path of traffic from my virtual machine to a switchboard? Or when things are not performing well, being able to look into that path, and the health, and see where things are not performing as well as they should, and being able to mitigate those sorts of issues.It does turn out if you are able to get rid of a lot of the old, crufty artifacts that have built up inside even these commodity system servers, and you are able to start designing at a rack level where you can drive much better power efficiency and density, and you bake in the software to effectively make this modern rack-level server look like a cloud in a box, and ensure these things can snap together in a grid, where in that larger fleet, operational management is easy because you've got the same automation capabilities that the big cloud hyperscalers have today. It can really simplify life. It ends up being an economic win and maybe most importantly, presents the infrastructure in a way that the developers love. And so there's not this view of the public cloud being the fast, innovative path for developers and on-prem being this, submit a trouble ticket and try and get access to a VM in six days, which sadly is the experience that we hear a lot of companies are still struggling with in on-prem computing.Jason: Practically, when you're going out and talking to customers, you're going to be a heterogeneous environment where presumably they already have their own on-prem infrastructure and they'll start to plug in—Steve: Yeah.Jason: —Oxide Computer alongside of it. And presumably, they're also to some degree in the public cloud. It's a fairly complex environment that you're trying to insert yourself into. How are your customers thinking about building on top of Oxide Computer in that heterogeneous environment? And how do you see Oxide Computer expanding within these enterprises, given that there's a huge amount of existing capital that's gone into building out their data centers that are already operating today, and the public cloud deployments that they have?Steve: As customers are starting to adopt Oxide rack-level computing, they are certainly going to be going into environments where they've got multiple generations of multiple different types of infrastructure. First, the discussions that we're having are around what are the points of data exfiltration, of data access that one needs to operate their broader environment. You can think about handoff points like the network where you want to make sure you've got a consistent protocol to, like, BGP or other, to be able to speak from your layer 2 networks to your layer 3 networks; you've got operational software that is doing monitoring and alerting and rolling up for service for your SRE teams, your operations teams, and we are making sure that Oxide's endpoint—the front end of the Oxide product—will integrate well, will provide the data required for those systems to run well. Another thorny issue for a lot of companies is identity and access management, controlling the authentication and the access for users of their infrastructure systems, and that's another area where we are making sure that the interface from Oxide to the systems they use today, and also resident in the Oxide product such as one wants to use it directly, has a clean cloud-like identity and access management construct for one to use. But at the highest level it is, make sure that you can get out of the Oxide infrastructure, the kind of data and tooling required to incorporate into management of your overall fleet.Over time, I think customers are going to experience a much simpler and much more automated world inside of the Oxide ecosystem; I think they're going to find that there are exponentially fewer hours required to manage that environment and that is going to inevitably just lead to wanting to replace a hundred racks of the extant commodity stack with, you know, sixty racks of Oxide that provide much better density, smaller footprint in the data center, and again, software-driven in the way that these folks are looking for.Jason: And in that answer, you alluded to a lot of the specialization and features that you guys can offer. I've always loved Alan Kay's quote, “People who are really serious about software make their own hardware.”Steve: Yeah.Jason: Obviously, you've got some things in here that only Oxide Computer can do. What are some of those features that traditional vendors can't even touch or deliver that you'll be able to, given your hardware-software integration?Steve: Maybe not the most exciting example, but I think one that is extremely important to a lot of the large enterprise company that we're working with, and that is at a station, being able to attest to the software that is running on your hardware. And why is that important? Well, as we've talked about, you've got a lot of different vendors that are participating in that system that you're deploying in your data center. And today, a lot of that software is proprietary and opaque and it is very difficult to know what versions of things you are running, or what was qualified inside that package that was delivered in the firmware. We were talking to a large financial institution, and they said their teams are spending two weeks a month just doing, kind of a proof of trust in their infrastructure that their customer's data is running on, and how cumbersome and hard it is because of how murky and opaque those lower-level system software world is.What do the hyperscalers do? They have incorporated hardware Root of Trust, which ensures from that first boot instruction, from that first instruction on the microprocessor, that you have a trusted and verifiable path, from the system booting all the way up through the control plane software to, say, a provisioned VM. And so what this does is it allows the rest of the market access to a bunch of security innovation that has gone on where these hyperscalers would never run without this. Again, having the hardware Root of Trust anchored at a station process, the way to attest all that software running is going to be really, really impactful for more than just security-conscious customers, but certainly, those that are investing more in that are really, really excited. If you move upstack a little bit, when you co-design the hardware with the control plane, both the server and the switch hardware with the control plane, it opens up a whole bunch of opportunity to improve performance, improve availability because you now have systems that are designed to work together very, very well.You can now see from the networking of a system through to the resources that are being allocated on a particular machine, and when things are slow, when things are broken, you are able to identify and drive those fixes, in some cases that you could not do before, in much, much, much faster time, which allows you to start driving infrastructure that looks a lot more like the five nines environment that we expect out of the public cloud.Jason: A lot of what you just mentioned, actually, once again, ties back to that analogy to the iPhone, and having that kind of secure enclave that powers Touch ID and Face ID—Steve: Yep.Jason: —kind of a server equivalent, and once again, optimization around particular workflows, the iPhone knows exactly how many photos every [laugh] iOS user takes, and therefore they have a custom chip dedicated specifically to processing images. I think that tight coupling, just relating it back to that iOS and iPhone integration, is really exciting.Steve: Well, and the feedback loop is so important because, you know, like iPhone, we're going to be able to understand where there are rough edges and where things are—where improvements can even can continue to be made. And because this is software-driven hardware, you get an opportunity to continuously improve that artifact over time. It now stops looking like the old, your car loses 30% of the value when you drive it off the lot. Because there's so much intelligent software baked into the hardware, and there's an opportunity to update and add features, and take the learnings from that hardware-software interaction and feed that back into an improving product over time, you can start to see the actual hardware itself have a much longer useful life. And that's one of the things we're really excited about is that we don't think servers should be commodities that the vendors are trying to push you to replace every 36 months.One of the things that is important to keep in mind is as Moore's laws is starting to slow or starting to hit some of the limitations, you won't have CPU density and some of these things, driving the need to replace hardware as quickly. So, with software that helps you drive better utilization and create a better-combined product in that rack-level system, we think we're going to see customers that can start getting five, six, seven years of useful life out of the product, not the typical two, or three, or maybe four that customers are seeing today in the commodity systems.Will: Steve, that's one of the challenges for Oxide is that you're taking on excellence in a bunch of interdisciplinary sciences here, between the hardware, the software, the firmware, the security; this is a monster engineering undertaking. One of the things that I've seen as an investor is how dedicated you have got to be to hiring, to build basically the Avengers team here to go after such a big mission. Maybe you could touch on just how you've thought about architecting a team here. And it's certainly very different than what the legacy providers from an on-prem ecosystem perspective have taken on.Steve: I think one of the things that has been so important is before we even set out on what we were going to build, the three of us spent time and focused on what kind of company we wanted to build, what kind of company that we wanted to work at for the next long chunk of our careers. And it's certainly drawing on experiences that we had in the past. Plenty of positives, but also making sure to keep in mind the negatives and some of the patterns we did not want to repeat in where we were working next. And so we spent a lot of time just first getting the principles and the values of the company down, which was pretty easy because the three of us shared these values. And thinking about all the headwinds, just all the foot faults that hurt startups and even big companies, all the time, whether it be the subjectivity and obscurity of compensation or how folks in some of these large tech companies doing performance management and things, and just thinking about how we could start from a point of building a company that people really want to work for and work with.And I think then layering on top of that, setting out on a mission to go build the next great computer company and build computers for the cloud era, for the cloud generation, that is, as you say, it's a big swing. And it's ambitious, and exhilarating and terrifying, and I think with that foundation of focusing first on the fundamentals of the business regardless of what the business is, and then layering on top of it the mission that we are taking on, that has been appealing, that's been exciting for folks. And it has given us the great opportunity of having terrific technologists from all over the world that have come inbound and have wanted to be a part of this. And we, kind of, will joke internally that we've got eight or nine startups instead of a startup because we're building hardware, and we're taking on developing open-source firmware, and a control plane, and a switch, and hardware Root of Trust, and in all of these elements. And just finding folks that are excited about the mission, that share our values, and that are great technologists, but also have the versatility to work up and down the stack has been really, really key.So far, so great. We've been very fortunate to build a terrific, terrific team. Shameless plug: we are definitely still hiring all over the company. So, from hardware engineering, software engineering, operations, support, sales, we're continuing to add to the team, and that is definitely what is going to make this company great.Will: Maybe just kind of a wrap-up question here. One of the things Jason and I always like to ask folks is, if you succeed over the next five years, how have you changed the market that you're operating in, and what does the company look like in five years? And I want you to know as an investor, I'm holding you to this. Um, so—Steve: Yeah, get your pen ready. Yeah.Will: Yeah, yeah. [laugh].Steve: Definitely. Expect to hear about that in the next board meeting. When we get this product in the market and five years from now, as that has expanded and we've done our jobs, then I think one of the most important things is we will see an incredible amount of time given back to these companies, time that is wasted today having to stitch together a fractured ecosystem of products that were not designed to work together, were not designed with each other in mind. And in some cases, this can be 20, 30, 40% of an organization's time. That is something you can't get back.You know, you can get more money, you can—there's a lot that folks can control, but that loss of time, that inefficiency in DIY your own cloud infrastructure on-premises, will be a big boon. Because that means now you've got the ability for these companies to capitalize on digitalizing their businesses, and just the velocity of their ability to go improve their own products, that just will have a flywheel effect. So, that great simplification where you don't even consider having to go through and do these low-level updates, and having to debug and deal with performance issues that are impossible to sort out, this—aggregation just goes away. This system comes complete and you wouldn't think anything else, just like an iPhone. I think the other thing that I would hope to see is that we have made a huge dent in the efficiency of computing systems on-premises, that the amount of power required to power your applications today has fallen by a significant amount because of the ability to instrument the system, from a hardware and software perspective, to understand where power is being used, where it is being wasted.And I think that can have some big implications, both to just economics, to the climate, to a number of things, by building and people using smarter systems that are more efficient. I think generally just making it commonplace that you have a programmable infrastructure that is great for developers everywhere, that is no longer restricted to a rental-only model. Is that enough for five years?Will: Yeah, I think I think democratizing access to hyperscale infrastructure for everybody else sounds about right.Steve: All right. I'm glad you wrote that down.Jason: Well, once again, Steve, thanks for coming on. Really exciting, I think, in this conversation, talking about the server market as being a fairly dynamic market still, that has a great growth path, and we're really excited to see Oxide Computer succeed, so thanks for coming on and sharing your story with us.Steve: Yeah, thank you both. It was a lot of fun.Will: Thank you for listening to Perfectly Boring. You can keep up the latest on the podcast at perfectlyboring.com, and follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.

I have had my head down working on some big things, and it has been a while since you heard from me. Well, I'm getting back to it with a follow-up chat with Toby Bowers, the Leader of the Microsoft Bizapps ISV Program. I managed to catch him in his car, and got a great update on some new things happening in the ISV arena. Enjoy! Transcript Below: Toby: Hi, this is Toby. Steve: Hey Toby, Steve Mordue, how's it going? Toby: Hey, Steve. I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? Steve: Not too bad. I catch you at a decent time? Toby: You've caught me at a fine time. I'm actually in the car at the moment. I'm just taking my team out for a little celebratory launch after our big Inspire event and also our Ready event earlier this week. So it's actually a good time. Let me just pull over so we can have a chat. Steve: It's Been a pretty frantic couple of weeks for you guys. Toby: Frantic, but good. Yeah. Yeah. We had a great showing at Inspire. We made some exciting announcements across the business applications business, but especially around our ISV program, ISV Connect, as you and I have chatted about before. So, it's been good. Steve: Well that's [crosstalk 00:00:50]- Toby: How about you [crosstalk 00:00:51]. Steve: [crosstalk 00:00:51] the reason for my call is to try and catch up on ISV Connect. We talked some time ago about some things that you kind of had just inherited this role from Googs who moved on and were kind of getting your feet wet. Now you've had a close to a year in this position, right? Toby: Yeah, that's right. That's right. I remember our initial chat and I think in fact I'm guilty, Steve, because we agreed to speak a little bit more often, but it's been an interesting year this past year, as we all know, but yeah, it's been almost a full year of execution since we last spoke and I even remember Steve, the nice article you wrote with some suggestions for me as I sort of took over. Toby: Yeah, I'd love to actually go back to that. We can talk about a little bit about some of the enhancements and announcements that we made last week. Steve: Yeah. I mean last week, I think for a lot of the ISV's that they weren't thrilled with some things as the program got launched, they were starting to kind of get their arms around it. But some of these announcements that I was hearing and hopefully we can talk about today, anything of course isn't NDA, I think should make the ISV community pretty happy. It's making me pretty happy. And really kind of throw some gas on that fire. Toby: Yeah. Well, absolutely. I'd love to reinforce it. I know, I know you get a lot of people listening to your impromptu calls here. So why don't I do this? Let me maybe just set a little bit of context, just kind of where we left off Steve, and then I can hit on the high notes of what we announced and then we can dive into any particular areas. That sound all right? Steve: Yeah. You are pulled over, right? Toby: I am pulled over now, yes. Steve: Okay. Toby: You got my full attention. Steve: All right sure, kind of hit some of the highlights. Toby: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, for those who don't know, we originally set out with the ISV Connect program a couple of years ago to attract ISV's to our platform, building and extending upon it. That platform being both Dynamics 365 and the power platform with a specific focus on partners who had great industry or vertical IP to enhance the portfolio and delivering better value to our joint customers. So through the program itself, it's a revenue share program and we reinvest back in the ecosystem in the form of platform benefits, go to market benefits, co-selling with our field. Toby: So when I sort of took over Steve, I wanted to sort of get a full year of execution in place. And in that first year we were pretty happy with the numbers. We have over 700 ISV's enrolled in the program. Now we use AppSource as sort of the cornerstone of the program. We have, we have 1400 apps or more certified in AppSource. But after that first year, I really with the team wanted to understand how things were landing, and I think your feedback was good Steve. We did a bunch of research. We do partner satisfaction surveys. I of course talked to a lot of partners in my travels. Steve: [crosstalk 00:03:59] in a year's time, you can kind of get a pretty good gauge on what was working well? What could work better? What wasn't working well? What do we need to just abandon? What do we need to step on? And I kind of got the feeling that was this readjustment that we just saw was kind of bringing some of those things to light. Toby: That's exactly right Steve. I mean, it's such a diverse ecosystem of emerging partners to large mature partners across a pretty vast portfolio. So, it was a diverse set of feedback, but you're spot on. We wanted to give it a little bit of time, but then check in and listen and make some adjustments. So that's what we did, based on a lot of the feedback we got. Toby: I'd sort of summarize what we changed in three big areas Steve, the first is that the business model itself, the fee structure, and we talked about this last time, but not only having an investible model where you can reinvest, but actually investing in the ecosystem, especially as it's growing like this business is growing. Toby: The second thing was a lot of feedback around the go to market, whether it was the marketing benefits, the co-selling with our field, really just getting that value proposition right Steve, and really delivering on the promise we made. We needed to balance that equation a little bit and equalize the effort. Toby: And then the third piece is really around the platform itself. And again, we've talked about this in the past, but just the platform, the tooling, dev test environments, app sources, and marketplace itself. Toby: So those were the three key areas that we sort of listened and got a lot of good feedback around. So with that in mind, what we actually announced at the event is that first of all, back on the business model we're significantly reducing the rev share fees down from 10 and 20%, which you might recall, we had a standard tier and a premium tier. So we were bringing those fees down from 10 and 20% to 3%, just a flat 3% going forward. Steve: That's across the board? Toby: That's across the board. And in fact, it was part of a broader announcement we made as Microsoft, Steve, where we're also bringing our commercial marketplace fees, so that's both Azure Marketplace and app sources. We get transact capabilities down to that same flat 3%. Steve: So what's the motivation behind that? I mean, what is it that they're hoping that will accomplish for Microsoft? Toby: Yeah, it's interesting. If you catch any of the sessions, even starting with Satya, he really talks about Microsoft wanting to be the platform for platform creators. And then if you parlay that into what Nick Parker said and Charlotte Marconi around being the best platform for partners to do business on, it really just came down to helping the partners keep more of their margin to invest in their growth. Toby: So it's not a P&L, a profit center for Microsoft. It's a way to deliver benefits. We think it's pretty differentiated in the market compared to some of our peers. And it was sort of interesting to see, because we were planning on bringing the fees down for ISV Connect specifically, and then we started to align across the organization and just thought, gosh, we should just do this in a very consistent way across the entire Microsoft Cloud with that one flat 3%. Steve: So the math equation had to work out something like, if we dropped this to 3%, that's going to grow that side of the business significantly, which is going to increase platform sales, right? There has to be an up for the down. And I guess maybe... I mean, not that the platform wasn't already growing by leaps and bounds, but somebody must've been thinking this thing can grow a lot faster if we get rid of some of these hurdles. Toby: You're exactly right. I mean, it's kind of what we've talked about in the past. Just the value that an ISV ecosystem brings to Microsoft with that, whether it's the industry relevance, industry specific IP, or just a growing ecosystem in general. I don't know if you'd caught what we just did, our earnings earlier this week, but Dynamics 365 is growing 43% year over year, we doubled our power apps customer base. And so to your point, the business is growing, the platform is growing, and we want the ecosystem to grow and we want to attract as many partners to do that as possible. Steve: So, I mean, you can't reduce fees and increase the benefit, you have to have taken some things away or maybe gotten rid of some things that weren't being utilized, or how did that kind of offset? Toby: Yeah. Great question. Yeah, so we are investing deliberately to build this out and kind of putting our money where our mouth is, but we did, you're spot on. We learned a lot around the benefits, the go to market benefits in particular, the second key thing we announced is that we are reducing just down to one tier at that flat 3%. So no more 10% and 20% or a standard and a premium tier. And we're reducing the thresholds within that one tier for partners to unlock those go to market benefits and those marketing benefits. And then what I heard, especially from partners, again, to my point around, you've got some mature partners and some emerging partners, it's not a one size fits all. And so we've got an option sort of an, a lA carte, option for partners to choose marketing benefits that make the most sense for their business. So we just tried to simplify things and streamline things a little bit. Steve: You know, I talked to a lot of partners. We're, kind of unique in that our application is free. So, the revenue shared didn't really come into play for what we were doing because there wasn't a fee for our app or any recurring services with it. But you know, a lot of these ISV's their business is significantly different. They've got revenue generating applications that run on top of your platform. Many of them that kind of told me in confidence that they just weren't paying the fees. They were getting the notice from Microsoft saying, "Hey, please do us a favor and tell us how much money you've made and what you owe us." And many of them were just kind of ignoring that. Steve: I guess if we're getting down into a 3% range, it'd probably make it a little easier for some people to be more honest about things too you think? Toby: Yeah. Well, yeah we hope so. Again, that was kind of my point around balancing the equation and making sure that we're delivering on the promise that we set out with the program itself. And I talked to a lot of partners as well, and there's definitely benefit being realized, whether it's from a marketing perspective or co-selling with our field, again, based on what's important to their business, but you're right, we do think by reducing it to this level and also just getting better at delivering the benefits in a consistent way, we'll have more partners participating in the program. Toby: The one thing I would say, Steve, that I was just going to close off on with this sort of consistency across Microsoft is we also realized that's our value proposition. If we can not only have a similar model with the 3% marketplace fee and ISV Connect fees across Microsoft, but a similar model to the way we deliver those benefits, to the way we engage with technical resources or engage from a co-selling perspective across Azure Teams and 365 Dynamics Power Platform, that's kind of how we differentiate ourselves versus, the rest of the players out in the market. Toby: So we made a bunch of enhancements and announcements across the business Azure teams, ISV Connect obviously, and you'll see us continue to sort of work towards a much more consistent approach from a Microsoft Cloud perspective, because obviously we'd love it if partners were integrating with Teams. We have over 250 million monthly active users with Teams now driving dynamics integrations all the way through to CDM and Dataverse and integration into Azure Synapse. Those are the partners we want to work with and the type of partners we want to support and go to market with. Steve: Well, I'll tell you, I think the 3% has probably eliminated a hurdle for a partner, certainly I remember at the time a lot of partners complaining about the 10 and 20 saying things like, "If it was like three." Okay, well it's three now, so shut up and move forward. Toby: Yeah. We've had a lot of- Steve: And it's interesting, because it's kind of the way we sell is I guess for an industry ISV who built something specifically for Dynamics 365, maybe they approach things a little different. Our approach is more, we really try and sell the potential of the platform because we've got a simple CRM. So we're up against a lot of competing simple CRMs. And when you open one of their CRMs and open, rapid start, for example, they look very similar and do very similar things. So for us, we really have to sell the value proposition of, hey, behind that little CRM that you're using from Acme Cloud CRM company is really nothing. You've got the extent of what you can do with that right there in front of you and there's nothing more that can be done, and we really lean in hard on the potential for things like integration with Teams, with things like integration with Azure. Steve: Obviously the integration with Microsoft 365, all of the pieces that are available in the power platform that we haven't enabled in our app that are there to be enabled, you like the forums and some of the AI stuff, it definitely seems to be a huge differentiator in that sales conversation. Toby: Yeah. Well, that's great to hear that's really what we're trying to get right and stitch together the teams if they exist across Microsoft and iron those out. I think your company is a great example of that Steve, and I know you talked to a bunch of our partners and sort of as an independent third party, we had a few partners join us at inspire. Icertis has been a longstanding partner of ours. They're a similar story from, from Azure Dynamics Teams really across the board, and getting more and more focused on industry solutions with their particular IP. Toby: And then we had more emerging partners like Karma, Frank at Karma talked to us about some of the benefits we're building into the platform, specifically license management, and now he's taken advantage of that. And we have big partners like Sycor, that's been working with us for a long time on the Azure side of the business and is doing some really interesting things now on the dynamic side and sees value in that co-sell motion. Toby: So I think that value prop is what we're trying to land, and then we're seeing lots of different types of partners take advantage of it in different ways, which is great to see. Steve: Yeah, it's not often that you see both a cost of participation come down and the value of the benefits go up. And when we talk about benefits, and before, you and I have talked about some of these go to market benefits, there's a segment of ISV's that could make use of those probably mostly new ISV's that don't really understand that system. Steve: But for a lot of the ISV's, they really didn't see value there, but in the meantime they're maintaining their own licensing systems and their own transaction systems and things like that, which as an ISV, that's just like a tax. You're building your solution to solve a particular problem, but you can't just stop after you built this wonderful solution, you got to protect it, you got to monetize it. So those things ended up being just kind of attacks. Steve: And, every ISV out there has had to kind of build their own system for licensing and transacting. And you guys coming through now recently here would be with the licensing capability we were in that pilot, and that thing's got some great potential, a couple of things left for them to do on that to get that really where it's going to solve a lot of problems that ISV's have had, even with their own licensing. Steve: Because with your own external licensing system, you can only do so much, but working with one that's on the platform, that's essentially the same one you guys are utilizing, is going to be huge for ISV's, and then we'll get to transactability, that's just going to close another piece that ISV's have had to deal with, especially when you talk about those startup ISV's, they know an industry and they can build an app, but when it comes to licensing and transacting, and if they can just tick a button and plug right into a couple of those things, that's going to lower the bar to entry and make it a lot easier for some of those folks to get in I think. Toby: Yeah, I hope that you're right Steve, in fact, I didn't know you were working with Julian Payor and the team on piloting the license management stuff. It's great to hear your feedback. That was kind of the whole intent with the journey. If I rewind a bit with AppSource itself, you'll recall we had to do quite a bit of work on the overall user experience for AppSource. We worked hard with the engineering team to improve that, improve discoverability and search capabilities and just sort of the plumbing underneath. And then the next step was, was licensed management, which we've just GA'd working again with the engineering team, and then from there, to your point, the value proposition, a lot of ISV's put all this together and then you add transactability and the ability to actually sell your stuff on our marketplace to what's now more than 4 million monthly shoppers, going to that destination is it is definitely a point of value that I've heard positive feedback from ISV's on. Toby: So that's why we really invested there. I know it's taking us a little bit of time to get there, but that was another key announcement. We announced license management later in the fiscal year. We'll have translatability and AppSource for our customer engagement apps, for power apps, and then we'll continue to roll out a roadmap from there. Toby: And then the other piece I forgot to mention Steve, we made some noise about as well, was these new sandbox environments. And I know you've given me this feedback before, but you know, sort of in the broader internal use rights world, the value in having sandbox environments for our partners to do dev tests and do customer demos around, I heard loud and clear from you and from other partners. And so that's the other thing we announced. We have these new discounted skews, which are basically just at cost skews across the business for those dev test environments. And then for partners who are participating in ISV Connect and hitting those new lower reduced rev share thresholds, we'll provide those licenses for free. Toby: So we think that's going to be a great new benefit for partners as well, more on that technical and platform side of things. Steve: Yeah. Particularly for the ISV's, because ISV's don't necessarily see a lot of value or need to get Microsoft competencies. Competencies are definitely, as a program that was designed for resellers to demonstrate their competence. But a lot of ISV's don't want to have a need for that. And that's where [inaudible 00:19:22] had historically kind of been tied was to those competencies. Steve: So is there any talk about any sort of... I mean, they did do that kind of short-lived ISV competency, which was primarily around, hey, if you've got an app in AppSource you qualify. Here's some IUR. Steve: So this new program will replace that, but are they going to be revisiting any sort ISV competencies or need? Toby: Yeah, well I won't say too much as far as future plans are concerned, but what I can say Steve is that we did this for biz apps, we did it for ISV Connect because that's our program and we got feedback and we think there's value in that. Toby: I did mention that going forward we'll have a more consistent approach across Microsoft Cloud. There's lots of different benefits out there. Azure Credits, we announced some new things around Teams. And so we just need to, as one Microsoft, provide that to our partners in a consistent delivery through these benefits so that we can support that kind of value proposition we talked about earlier. So look for more from us in that area. You're spot on, on the competency side. And I wouldn't even say resellers, I'd say more SI, system integrators services partners. Steve: Yeah. Toby: The key difference there is, we want those guys to be able to differentiate their organization. As a company, you can say, "I've got 15 certified individuals in this role-based certification. And I've got this many credits to my business that make me a gold partner at an organization level"- Steve: Which is something a customer looking at SI would be looking for. Toby: Right. Steve: But when you're looking at an ISV solution, they're really just looking at the functionality. Toby: It's the app, right? You would want to badge in app versus badge and organization. And so that's the key difference there. And I think we've kind of figured that out and again, you'll see us do more in that space going forward. Steve: Yeah. I just want to mention, just go back for a second to make sure everybody is aware that the transactability and the licensing are optional. These are things that you can take advantage of if you spend a ton of money on your own systems, nobody's going to expect you to rip and replace. These are really designed for... I mean when I think of a partner like myself, if I can get out of the license management and have transactability just be automatic, where all I really have to do is focus on building my IP, getting it in AppSource, hopefully promoting it properly, but then the licensing becomes automatic and the transactability becomes automatic, and I'm just getting money coming into my account. Of course, you guys are scraping your 3%, which I don't begrudge because your given me those tools. That just makes things a lot easier. Toby: That's right. And you're right, it's not mandatory. It's again what makes sense for the partner. And so, you can do business with us and ISV Connect outside of the marketplace and work with us on the new 3%, get those benefits, or you can transact in the marketplace, it's that same 3%. And it's a different benefit. You get that whole commerce system, you get that whole billing engine. You don't have to worry about that. And there's a lot of ISV's out there that see value in that. So yeah, you're spot on. Steve: Yeah. I remember Goose had kind of recharacterized the revenue share after the kind of flap up from some of the ISV's about the benefits and stuff and he recharacterized it as a cost for the use of the platform that you're building on top of a platform that Microsoft has built, Microsoft maintains, Microsoft advances. So look at that as a cost for that. And I think you still kind of need to look at that as a cost for that. It's not 3% for licensing and transactability, it's a cost for maintaining the platform, there's these pieces you can take advantage of or not. But if you're not taking advantage of license management, transactability, it doesn't mean you don't have to pay the fee. You're paying the fee for something else. Toby: Yeah. Steve: I'm trying to head off some things I know I may hear from some folks [inaudible 00:23:24] licensing. No, no, no. Toby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right, Steve, and again, to zoom back out again, I mean, it's not about the 3%, it's about attracting partners to build on the broader Microsoft Cloud and supporting their business in a way that works for them. And you're right, there is a cost of doing that, but we want to invest, and I think we just sent a message hopefully to the market that we want to be aggressive in this space, we think we're well positioned, we've got a great value proposition with this broader Microsoft Cloud thing that we're just seeing incredible growth across the business. Toby: And I guess most importantly, we're listening back to that, after a full year, really sort of staying in tune to feedback from partners like yourself, that [inaudible 00:24:07] at large to make sure that we're doing the right thing and delivering, that's kind of what was most important to me. Steve: So those discounted skews for ISV's, in order to qualify for that, what do they need to do? They need to join ISV Connect? Toby: Yeah. So the discounted licenses, which are again, just basically at cost for us, are available to anyone who's enrolled in ISV Connect. All you need to do is enroll in the program, but then if you hit the new reduced rev share threshold that sort of unlocks additional benefits, then we'll give those licenses to you for free. And I can't here in the car, remember all the details of the numbers and stuff like that, I think, and you probably have it. I think aka.ms.bizapp.ISV connect, I think that's a link to our website that has all the benefit details and stuff, but that's basically the way it works. Steve: Are those available today? Toby: They are. There's a whole bunch of them available today and there's more coming. I know that the sales service, field service, marketing, I think the customer insights products, maybe commerce, I might be forgetting a few others and then there's more coming down the pike shortly. Steve: All right. So a good reason for people to go back to revisit ISV Connect site if they haven't in a while. Toby: I would love that. Yeah, I think so. If we can get people to go back and like you said, revisit, just get educated, hopefully get re-engaged and then keep the feedback coming. That's a great outcome. Steve: So I've had a few ISV's asking me about what's the future of ISV Embed, and maybe you can speak to that because that one's kind of a little vague, I think, for a lot of folks right now. Toby: Yeah. It's a great question Steve, that's kind of next, next on our list. And again, today I can't share a lot of specifics, but this is a good topic for us to come back to probably in our regular chats. Toby: As you know, Cloud Embed is a model that supports kind of like an OEM like model where a partner's just packaging their IP directly on the underlying license and selling it together through our ISV Cloud Embed program, which leverages our CSP vehicle as a way to transact. And so we've had it out there for a couple of years. And I may have mentioned before that we're sort of modernizing a whole bunch of our commerce capabilities and new business models and so we're working on a few different options still to support that embed scenario where things like co-selling with our field or certain other marketing benefits aren't the most important thing for a particular ISV in a particular scenario, they don't want to have to mess with reselling the underlying dynamics license. They're not resellers. They just want to sell their IP. Steve: Yeah. Toby: So we're working on some stuff there, especially, on both the core dynamics business and the power platform business. So we can stay in touch and I can come back to you for some feedback once we have more to share. Steve: Yeah. That, I mean, that program worked for a particular kind of an ISV. Toby: Yeah. Steve: A lot of the ISV's that have add on solutions that are not SI's, there's a partner already involved with a customer and they just want to sell their add on solution. Steve: Yeah. Licenses have probably already been sold by that partner. They don't want or need to get involved in that management of that sort of stuff. They just want to sell their IP. And then there's some ISV's that the customer is actually buying, which I think we're starting to see now. And I think I told you this before, one of the things that Salesforce had going for them with their ISV's was there were a lot of very robust ISV's that did a lot of direct marketing to customers about their solution and less so about the fact that it ran on Salesforce. Steve: Salesforce is this platform in the background, but this is what we're selling is this ISV solution, and in that scenario they own the customer because the customer wasn't buying Salesforce, they really were buying the solution to their problem for this ISV, and we hadn't seen as much of that on the dynamic side for a long time. It was definitely, you start with dynamics and then you add on ISV features and capabilities. But I think we're starting to see more of that, that holistic ISV solution that a customer is buying the solution that happens to run on the power platform or on dynamics. Toby: Totally. That's the scenario we see mutual opportunity in. That example, you said where the ISV owns the partner or the customer, the relationship with the customer, frankly that helps us reach more customers as Microsoft. And then if we provide that ISV still the underlying technology and the right business model to support their business, then that's goodness on both sides. So, that's exactly [crosstalk 00:29:10]. Steve: So that's the one where ISV Embed probably makes the most sense, , that type of partner. So we're starting to see more of them. Toby: That's great. That's great. Well, I always appreciate the feedback if you have any. So I'd love you to go through these new things in a bit more detail, and then send me your feedback and we can continue to keep the lines of communication open as always. Steve: I'm not letting you off just yet. I'm keeping you for a couple more. Toby: Oh man, I've got my team waiting, I'm hungry Steve. Steve: I just want to ask, "What is the most exciting thing you're seeing in the space coming soon that people should really be paying attention to?" I know we've got some things happening that aren't so much related to ISV, like the power platform pricing coming down, but what are some of the things that you're seeing in your group, or maybe some things that are already out there that you're feeling like ISV's are not understanding what this is obviously or they'd be all over it? Toby: Hmm. That's a great question. I'd say probably two things. One is, again, one of the big announcements we made at Inspire that wasn't necessarily related to ISV's or ISV Connect specifically, but what we announced with Teams where Teams users will now be able to sort of view and collaborate on Dynamics 365 records from directly within Teams. Toby: So this concept of collaborative apps you'll see, and that's at no additional cost. Obviously that concept you'll see us continue to do more around to bring that again, pretty large install base of Teams users that are out there, 250-million now, together with Dynamics, we think is sort of unique to our value proposition. So there was [crosstalk 00:30:58]- Steve: So this is somebody you think ISV's out there should definitely go do a little bit of investigating into the Team story? Toby: Yes, yes. Teams on the front end, it's such a large install base that we can take advantage of as partners. And then on the backend, I mentioned that again, power platform, Dataverse, leveraging our data services like Azure Synapse Analytics, again, stitching that all the way from the front end of the backend. We as Microsoft, we're really focused on that combined Microsoft Cloud story. And I think the partners that are recognizing that and investing in that with their own IP are the ones we're going to engage with and hopefully generate some good opportunity around. Toby: The second one, in that vein Steve, the second one I was going to say is just what we continue to do with our industry clouds. So we have cloud for healthcare out there at the moment, we've got financial services, manufacturing, retail, we announced the cloud for sustainability, we've got not-for-profit. So, these things continue to roll off the conveyor belt, but it's such a great opportunity. I was sort of surprised with how much interest we had from the ISV ecosystem around these industry clouds. Obviously as we build more industry IP, we need to sort of adjust our relationship with our partners who serve those industries, but there's still so much space to add, specific IP to that industry and work with some of those very credible industry partners that we were sort of talking about just a moment ago is a big place that we're going to invest going forward. So, that's an area I'd encourage people to keep a close eye on. Steve: Are you satisfied with the level of ISV engagement with the accelerators? Are they still kind of too many of them on the sidelines kicking or poking it with a stick or have we got enough of them actually coming in now that you're happy with that velocity? Or are you feeling like there's a bunch more that need to get in there? Toby: I think, first of all, we've evolved a bit from that original industry accelerator approach to now just real industry IP that we're building first party in these verticals that I mentioned. Obviously there's great partners out there that can work with us with those solutions to, like I said, have their IP built on that broader Microsoft Cloud. Industry clouds are just a great example of a Microsoft Cloud solution, frankly. And so to your question of, do we have enough partners there? You want to obviously get it right when you launch an offering like that with the right, frankly, small number of partners to complete the solution and have it be good and relevant and useful for customers, but the more the merrier around that investment. Toby: And so it's early days, Steve, we only have one industry cloud in market GA'd at the moment, but as I said, there's a lot more coming. So we want to make sure we're building the ecosystem around it pretty aggressively. Steve: Yeah. I mean, we've got partners of all sizes, so we got some big healthcare ISV's I'm sure engaged in some of the heavy lifting, but healthcare is an awfully big market, awfully big field, and there is spot, point solutions kind of across the healthcare organization that need to be filled by probably a smaller ISV's. So it seems like there's stuff across that whole thing. Toby: Yeah. Totally. There's plenty of opportunity and plenty of space around that. And even from a geographic perspective, I mean, different parts of the world have different regulatory requirements and are different, and so there's yeah, to your point, and that's what I was trying to articulate earlier. I think there's still just a massive opportunity for partners to work with us around those new offerings. Steve: Well, I know you've got to get to your thing. You've told me twice in the call, I appreciate you pulling the car over to chat with me to catch up. I just wanted to get some of this stuff out to the listeners about some of these changes that just occurred. Steve: And I'm definitely going to go through, like you said, and study it a little more closely and I'll reach out to you directly with some feedback and some thoughts and see if we keep this thing moving. Toby: Awesome. Well, Hey, I'm so glad you caught me, Steve. It's always a pleasure to catch up and have a chat, and yeah, please do go through it in some detail. Again, your feedback is important. Whole ecosystems feedback is super important to me, so I appreciate it. And yeah, it was great to catch up. Steve: All right man, talk to you soon. Toby: All right. Take care, Steve.

Connect with Steven Canyon: Text “KINETIC" to 844-844-0049  Website - https://stevencanyon.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stevencanyon/ Clubhouse - @stevencanyon and @megancanyon Facebook - https://facebook.com/stevencanyonco =========================================== Podcast Notes Meg: Relationships, they can be so complicated, but things as a kinetic believer aren't supposed to be. So I think that's why, like you just said, it's one of the most difficult aspects of living from the higher self because if you have anything really hanging on, it's probably a person, it's probably a relationship that can't transition with you, but the love and the connection makes you want to bring them along to such a deep level. Steve: Well, the word force is interesting because force, yes, so the kinetic believer is using the power and authority of force, but towards self. Force being the determining factor for creating your own expectations. For again, celebration and being championed, and edified, and loved unconditionally. But the pressure of the expectation is put on self, and then therefore on all others and all things to conform respectfully, to the force that's being self-inflicted. And then the infliction of the force is an affliction toward all others.  If it's not something that they wish to conform with. Meg: When you approach, when you have the opportunity to enter into a new relationship, what are your requirements? When you think about your standards, what you require to form a new relationship, or to assess one that has been hanging around, what goes through your mind? What are the requirements for you to connect with people in that way? Steve: Well, the first thing to do is to recognize, first of all, we are all energy. Your energy, energetics, there is an energy to your form. In fact, what we see is not what really is. And so I protect energy, and you think in terms of being a higher form of energy, vibrating on a high level of energetics, which is positive energy. And in that we are all energy, energetics of a vibrational frequency, we can either increase in intensity of that vibrational frequency, or we are depleted. And you can feel that. When somebody is depleting the virtue of your energy because they're negative, and you feel weakened, and tired, and fatigued after spending time with them. So know that you're commuting energetically with, in other words, you're sharing the feelings, you're sharing emotionally with someone else when you befriend them, you spend time with them as a friend. It becomes imperative to myself and should all others that you choose wisely, people that are positive and encouraging, and celebrating, and championing, and edifying, you and themself. It first begins with the sense of self-love. If somebody is not unconditionally loving themself from this higher perspective, energetically, then it's impossible for them to do that for you as well. The person that shows up, "Hey, I've got to talk to you about all these problems," that's a negative ball of energy that's going to deplete the virtue of your energetics. Meg: Well, I feel like you just brought us across the finish line. And we got there because the idea of approaching this from the perspective and from the posture of energy, energetics, it cuts through all the nuance that we began by discussing. So yes, it is complicated, and yes, it is nuanced, if you're down there, in there, in the muck of it, micromanaging what he said, what she said, what they did. Did they return the phone call? All this mess, clear all that out with the concept you just gave us of energetics, approach it from that perspective, all your questions will be answered. Steve: It's only complicated when you are tempted to do the wrong thing. It's very easy to do the right thing. Say this out loud.  I'm living dreams with enthusiasm. The  little things in life are my satisfaction. I enjoy being surrounded by positive people. I love being surrounded by others who champion and encourage and celebrate themself. I am fearless. As I live my life with courage. I'm following after my best life.  And it is right now. I am not responsible for the world.  I am responsible to me and for me and my choices. I choose life and all that is good. Therefore, all that is good belongs to me. I am in love with me.  Because I've chosen to be.

Sean: How do I look at fear in the face and turn it into fuel and overcome? Steve: Well, my answer to that is they're already doing it anyway. By them not being happy. They're already in fear. When you're not happy when you're unfulfilled. Here's how I look at it. Here is where we think we should be in life. Like we all have this vision of whatever it would be. Let's say it's status. It's a job. It's a relationship. It's a where you live, it's money. It's relationship with God, whatever we have this vision about where we think we - I should be there, like you see someone that "I could do that job, or I should have that house" or whatever it might be like, we have this vision about what could be possible, right. And then we know everything's possible in life, but then we're here. Like we're our reality is in the present every day I wake up, I have to pay these bills, I have a wife I don't love, my kids don't like me, whatever it might be. We're we're here and in between the space of where we envision our life to be. And here all in between that is that the Delta and that's where stress and fear live. What we have to realize is we have the ability to rise the tide. So as we squeeze fare out and turn it into fuel that on a basis of doing that, that you can create and make change. If you've not used to doing that, then I would say, stop in the mirror right now and realize. Okay. I am already breaking through fear. Because what's happening is each day that I get up and I'm not happy, that is a form of fear, unhappiness and unfulfillment is a version of fear. And you're allowing that fear to now be converted into what you do and go out into a job in which you don't like, go out into an industry and that you don't like, go back and go back into a marriage that you're not happy in and not choose to do something about it. What happens is when you choose to take action, fear, diminishes really quickly. Because once you get into action, as Napoleon Hill says in the book, "The thinking grow rich" is a book that Napoleon Hill in the United States wrote in the thirties, 1930s. And it's probably the greatest manual for the foundation of all self-development programs and positive thinking programs and business plans and life plans that have come after that. But you know, one of his simple quotes is, you know, success is the progressive realization of a worthy goal. And Paulo Coelho and the alchemist's book says once your mind is made up the universe conspires toward your success, so if you have a blueprint and a plan and you have a vision and you start taking some actions, boom, by getting into action, it really helps reduce the fear. So it's a matter of taking that vision of where we thought we should be. Mapping it out, writing out a plan, writing out a strategy, what would it look like? And knowing that what you can do in three years is pretty amazing. And it's always more than we think we can do. And that we always overestimate what we can do in a year, but start little. Start with, "Hey, I want to start getting out of my job, then start putting out resumes." And then from there, that action starts helping you start chipping away at fear and eventually a dam breaks and it just floods it down and it will turn into a reservoir of power for a short amount of time. And then it turns into fear again. So it's like these, these chunks that you just have to go, Oh, that's part of the process. Like I need that. Like, what I have realized is I have to have the fear to make it to the next place and I can't say that I enjoy fear, but I can tell you that I have made friends with fear. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

Steve Connelly started Connelly Partners (the defiantly human agency) in 1999 after he, as President of another agency, decided that the next time he got shot in the head, it would be by his own hand. For the first 6 months, his startup operated out of loaned office space in the backroom of another agency, Partners & Simons, Connelly Partners grew to cover all disciplines through acquisitions and organic divisional spinoffs. Today, the agency has a 42,000 square foot office in South Boston, and satellite offices in Dublin, Ireland and Vancouver. The broad, international range of the agency's B2B and B2C clients range in size from very small to large. The agency even supports low-cost or pro bono services for creative opportunities. The core values of the agency include all things anthropology, with subsets of empathy, studying human behavior, observing people and being able to “figure out what they're thinking, even if they don't know that's what they are thinking.” Steve refers to his team as “master translators of human behavior” . . . with the ability to “read minds.” He thinks the best way to understand how to sell a product to a customer is to understand the challenges of that customer's life. His priority is not to “get noticed.” He says, “Everyone notices a streaker, but no one wants to shake his hand” and then clarifies the thought by saying, “I'd rather understand a person, have them look at our work and say, “You know what? They get me.” In this interview, Steve talks about people's responses to market cycles and how, often, when things bottom out, people sit and wait for things to turn around.  He says, for him, that “the bottom” is the point: When you attack, when you invest, when you try to grow new practices, you try to bring new assets into your company, you take a really good look at your company as it sits, identify all your flaws . . . and try to fix them. I think the bottom of the market is when you get aggressive. But to do that . . . you have to have a lot of money saved. That funding is accrued when times are good. In this interview, Steve talks about the post-Covid business environment. As the world “opens up,” he expects to see a surge of “revenge tourism,” with people trying to “catch up” on experiences with their families after so many months in lockdown. He says, “Everyone is pissed off about everything right now” and acknowledges that, in the not-too-distant-future the “rules are going to be applied differently,” people will “choose to live differently, work differently, open . . . businesses differently going forward.”. He concludes, “Maybe we all just need to take a breath.” Steve believes that the next year is going to be a time of discovery. Management during Covid revealed a lot of good things about people as they worked from home, but everyone was operating by the same rules. Once restrictions are lifted, things will change. Steve believes that a unilateral “everyone will work from home” is an unrealistic money grab and notes that the office environment fosters a higher level and quality of spontaneity and organic exchange. He expects to develop a “hybrid” model to keep the best of both. Steve can be reached by email at: sconnelly@connellypartners.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Steve Connelly, Founder of Connelly Partners, based in Boston, Massachusetts. Welcome to the podcast, Steve. STEVE: Great to be here, buddy. ROB: It is excellent to have you here. I think you've got a great story with your firm, so why don't you start off by telling us about Connelly Partners and the firm's superpowers? STEVE: Connelly Partners was founded in 1999. The way most great agencies were founded, I was shot in the head by the previous agency I was president of, and came to a moment of realization that, “Okay, well, I'm not going to get shot in the head again unless it's . . .” ROB: Self-inflicted. [laughs] STEVE: Yeah, self-inflicted. So, we started the company. I had some amazingly gracious help from people inside the industry where I got space loaned to me. I had opportunities. The thing started organically in the backroom of another agency at the time called Partners & Simons. The nicest guy in the world, one of the smartest as well. Started organically. Moved to the south end in Boston about 6 months later. Now we have 42,000 square feet of space here. We have an operation in Dublin, Ireland. We have an operation new in Vancouver. We're in all disciplines. We've either acquired firms or organically started divisions to make sure that we have all skillsets represented. And as it relates to our superpower, I think everybody probably wishes for powers other than they have. We're certainly very fast, but I would say our superpower is the ability to read minds, which is creepy, but I do think our focus on empathy, our focus on really observing people, the love of anthropology, the study of human behavior – I think we can look at people and spend enough time and we can figure out what they're thinking even if they don't know that's what they're thinking. I'd love to say we have super strength. I'd love to say I'm invisible. I'd love to say all these other cool, sexier powers that you see on The Boys or in The Avengers and stuff like that. But I think at the end of the day, because we're an empathy-based company, reading minds is something we are actually really, really good at. ROB: That's a good talent. And you can read the minds of the people with the other superpowers, so it works out all right. If we zoom out a little bit, give us a picture of, if there is such a thing, a typical client, a typical engagement, or maybe an example client or engagement that helps us understand how you engage and what it looks like. STEVE: The reality is – and you know this and everyone listening knows this – there's nothing typical anymore. We have projects, we have AOR, we have big, we have small. We have people that have creative opportunities and we do it for nothing or low bono. We have some really big clients, great clients. We have some really small clients. I'd say the typical engagement, though, is somebody would come to us and they'd say, in so many words, “Help us understand our customers a little bit better and more their lives.” I think so many times people in marketing jump right to trying to understand how your product can be sold, and really the best way to understand that is to understand the person's life that you're trying to sell to and their stresses, their ups, their downs. What are the holes they have in their life that you might be able to fill or retrofit your product's benefit or services to meet a need? I think we would be looked at as master translators of human behavior and where we can identify what we would call defiantly human insights that most clients can take advantage of – things that are true about humans in general that we can help our clients use to maybe better get a conversation going with a prospect. I have a saying I've used all the time in this business, which is everyone notices a streaker, but no one wants to shake his hand. Our business is filled with a lot of people that believe our job is to be streaking and to get noticed and for people to see us, and I don't have time to do juggling llamas or flame-throwing fish. I'd rather understand a person, have them look at our work and say, “You know what? They get me.” ROB: Sure. Are we able to talk about some of the brands that might've been mentioned in the booking notes? I think it's illustrative, potentially. And I do notice the list was largely consumer. Are you largely in the consumer space? Is there some B2B in your game as well? STEVE: Yeah, we have lots of B2B. It's just those aren't names people have heard of. Everybody's heard of Titleist. Certainly, on some level, most people have heard of Gorton's and the Gorton fisherman. I think those are both great client examples. With Titleist, there's the fact they're the number one ball in golf. More players who are not paid to play a ball play Titleist, and I think that says a lot about – and of course, some of the greatest golfers in the world play it. Gorton Seafood, which is traditionally thought of as a fish stick-only company, but they're actually much more of a seafood company. With deep respect and understanding for people's love of the sea, we've been able to use anthropology; that's dictated a couple paths for us to connect Gorton's to the sea rather than lift them out of maybe how they were seen in the past, which is more of a convenience seafood. We work with Williamsburg Tourism, which is actually one of the biggest tourism DMAs in the country, with Williamsburg, Yorktown, and Jamestown. I was just down there a week and a half ago. Good to report to everybody, tourism is coming back. People may be wearing masks, but they're being active and they're outside again, and hotel occupancy was at a nice level. There were a lot of people enjoying the outside. So that's another client. We work for Audi in Ireland. Just finished a piece for them, or we're just going to production there. We're going to prepare for the reopening of the country and get people to rally around that, which is a cool assignment. We work for a big insurance company in Ireland as well. We work for Pizzeria Uno, which is a recent client here. Those are all consumer brands. On the B2B side, we work for a company called Quiet Logistics. We have a fair amount of B2B clients, including a couple I can't mention yet because we're still finishing up some contract negotiations. But I think one of our biggest wins in the last year is actually a B2B medical category company that has been totally embracing our love of anthropology. One of the things that happens in B2B, Rob, and you know this, is that people begin to try to categorize B2B as a different animal, and it's not. You're still marketing to a person; it's just that person is in a work stage, work life, different stresses, and we try to figure out what's going on in their life from the “9-to-5.” B2B is still B2P. And we get hired a fair amount for clients in that space to help figure out how to sell to people in the 9-to-5 mentality. ROB: It's consistent when we hear a little bit about how you think about consumer, because those brands that you mentioned – the Gorton's world – you think about food, and there's the lane of the flashy new product, and then there's the very – I think you mentioned where they came from, kind of this utilitarian mode. But there's something deeper you've gone to with the ocean, and Boston is certainly a good place to do that. When you mentioned that, I want to go eat some seafood in Boston right now. There's sort of a steadiness to how you come at those consumer brands that seems necessary. You seem to handle consumer more in the way people handle B2B than how people think about consumer. It's so flashy. STEVE: I think one of the things you have to do if you're going to be marketing – actually, B2C certainly, but B2B as well – is you can't be stuck. Everything changes every 6 months. If you're not self-aware enough to constantly be looking at the way life shifts – I mean, we have a rather robust strategic practice here. I don't know the number, but our strategist per employee number is I would guess much higher than most other agencies' numbers. We have two other open to hires, so if anybody wants to passively send me some anthropology resumes, I'd love to look at them. But I think you've got to be invested in the world and seeing how things have shifted. We just finished, and we're in the process of presenting to all clients now, 9 core insights that have changed and evolved or elevated in importance over the last 6 months as you come out of COVID. Now, those are different than they were 6 months ago when we were in COVID. It's knowing where the mind is going. You think about the imagery of the ocean, the power and the attraction of the sea, how we are all hardwired to yearn for it – I mean, everybody wants to put their toes in the ocean, for whatever crazy reason that may be that's anthropologically validated. I don't know why, but everyone wants to put their feet in the ocean. Using that attraction right now, if you think about it, we've been locked up inside for so long, the imagery of the ocean, the imagery of the outdoors, the imagery of the air – and also, the need to protect the oceans. The oceans are under incredible assault right now. Our reverence for the ocean and respecting the attraction of the ocean, we can use all that stuff to sell seafood. There's a goodness to the food that comes from the sea that people inherently believe. I don't have to convince them. I just have to connect them to that part of themselves that acknowledges it. Everyone likes fish. ROB: Right. Steve, you mentioned starting the firm in 1999, which may have looked like a good idea for about a year or so, and then maybe seemed like kind of a bad idea from the dot-com bust and the echo of that. You've been through the 2007-2008 financial crisis, and this COVID thing as well. As you're looking at coming out, how does this situation rhyme with the past couple of times of duress, and how did you handle it differently coming from that lens? STEVE: There's a certain consistency that I have had in terms of dealing with any time you reach a market dip, a market bump, when the rollercoaster is at the bottom. Some people handle it and they sit on their hands and they wait for it to pass. They become exceptionally conservative. They become almost passive, and you're kind of waiting for things to open back up, and you just want to weather the storm. I would be in the opposite category, which is I think that's the point when you attack, when you invest, when you try to grow new practices, you try to bring new assets into your company you take a really good look at your company as it sits, identify all your flaws – because lord knows we all have tons of them – and try to fix them. I think the bottom of the market is when you get aggressive, but to do that, you have to be really conservative financially. You have to have a lot of money saved. You have to be very careful that when you're at the top of the rollercoaster, you don't go out and spend all your money on flashy cars and nice clothes. You've got to remember this is a long-term thing. Because we have been very well-managed financially, we're able to attack at the bottom when other people might not. Now, the difference here in this particular next 6 months is that the rules have been unilaterally applied to everybody. Everybody has had to wear a mask, stay inside, work from home. We've all been forced to compete by rules that are consistently applied. That wasn't the case in the previous blips. Certainly, the dot-com blip – I can go back and talk about what happened then. But the difference now is we all have to ask ourselves: What happens when we're all not playing by the same rules again in 4 months? When some people are going to work and some people aren't? When hybrid is becoming the reality and other people are going to want to stay home? When there's different requirements of people as they pursue revenge tourism, as they try to find different ways to have more experiences with their family because they feel like they have to make up for lost time? The rules are going to be – we're all competing and stuck in the same “COVID prison” right now. I'll say one other thing. I had a really good conversation with an employee here a couple of days ago. In an agency meeting, he asked me when I'm going to stop being so angry at COVID. I really didn't even know I was projecting that anger. I found that to be a really therapeutic, really good slap in the face of reality that I got, because I think we're all angry about it. But we can do nothing about it. I really took those words to heart. I think in the early parts of this, I thought the role of an agency leader or business leader, head of a household, head of any group, manager, coach, your job is to be positive and to get people to focus on the positivity in the long term. I think I and all of us have been beaten down to the point where we're angry and negative. [laughs] I found that to be a really good comment. As the rules are going to be applied differently and we choose to live differently, work differently, open our businesses differently going forward, I think positivity is something I'm going to try to amplify and get people to be a little less angry. Everyone is pissed off about everything right now, and maybe we all just need to take a breath. ROB: I think it will be good to have – you mentioned revenge tourism, and I hadn't heard that phrase. It's hilarious, but it's intuitive. I understand what you're getting at. Maybe that will be a bit cathartic. Everybody has 10 opinions about what to do each day, but some folks seem to be saying they're going to stay locked down, and maybe that's the hardest part. How do you get those people out and un-angry? We all need to see some people and do some things, I think. STEVE: Yeah, I don't know how we're going to – I think one of the things we have to do is acknowledge that we can only try so hard. Because of the way news is distributed, because of the way people are consuming news and they're gathering information, they are led down certain paths. For us, I think we'll go back to basic human instinct, which is the majority of people are going to want to get out. Here's an example. In Ireland they're still completely locked down. If I go to Ireland right now, I have to sit in an airport hotel for 2 weeks before I can get out, and then when I get out, everything's closed. The challenge as it relates to tourism in Ireland is that most people, when they take their holiday, go to Spain or to France or to Europe, other countries, and they explore the way we would explore other states here. They can't leave. So they are now making holiday plans to travel within Ireland, and if you think about it for context, that would be like me in Massachusetts – I can't go to Florida, as I would go every year; I have to go someplace within Massachusetts. There's a little bit of depression that comes from that. But I'm finding people are saying, “I'm going to make the best of it,” and there's a certain acceptance. In Massachusetts, there are amazing places to go visit and escape, and I can take some revenge on COVID. I think that's what's going to happen as different countries stay shut down. Revenge tourism is real, man. Our biggest piece of business when COVID started was Four Seasons in the Americas, and I lost that business in the first 2 weeks, for obvious reasons. But I think hotels are going to start – certainly, it's happening here in the States again, and some places, some hotel groups, destination groups that continue to spend and engage with customers at the bottom of the rollercoaster are going to see the benefit of it now that things are starting to pick up, where others are going to have to make up ground. From a marketing perspective, that's a little bit of an insight that's going to be fun to observe: how fast people can catch up. ROB: It's going to move. It's already moving pretty quickly. To your point about investing when things are down, I'm hearing that a lot of the rental car companies disinvested in their fleets and now, come July and August, you're looking at $100 a day for economy class cars in some places. If folks had kept it up, they'd have a fleet to sell. STEVE: I'll tell ya, man, I went to Naples this past weekend to golf. I'm in the Hertz Club Gold and I'm also in the National Emerald Club. I booked my car at National in the Emerald Club, landed at the hotel with my golf bag and my clothes, and there were no cars in the road except for one little teeny tiny clown car. I'm not a small human being, but this was my only choice. I was in a state of shock that every single car was gone, or, as you said, they've liquidated some of their fleets. I'm driving around Florida in this little teeny tiny thing, trying to figure out where all the cars went. They clearly didn't invest at the bottom. I get it; I think there are financial realities. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm driving with my knees up to my chin. ROB: [laughs] Sounds challenging. It's going to be interesting. I was ready to go to Ireland. I was ready to self-quarantine for 2 weeks when they were still open, I think last summer. It turned out our kids didn't have passports yet, so we didn't make that. But I was ready to do that drive around Massachusetts version of Ireland. Just pick a home base in the middle of the country and drive around and see it. STEVE: When you're ready to do it, give me a call. I followed my son some years back on a rugby tour around Ireland, and it's a spectacular country. The people are – for people that live in a country that has two seasons, cold and rainy and warm and rainy, man, they're happy, friendly, nice, accommodating. We had the greatest time ever, and you will too. But I could say the same thing about Massachusetts in terms of people that are driving to The Berkshires, or for me going to New Hampshire within 100 miles. There's so much that we haven't seen. I think at the end of the day, revenge tourism is about getting out of the house and reconnecting with some people, and you can do that driving 50 miles as well as flying 500 miles. ROB: Absolutely. I will look for those tips. Steve, with the journey you've been on, and really successfully running and growing a firm for over 20 years, I'd be remiss not to ask you about some other lessons you've learned along that journey and maybe some decisions you might advise yourself to do differently if you were going back in time. STEVE: I wear a lot of t-shirts. The people here would validate that. One of my t-shirts I wear is, “Often wrong but never in doubt.” I think that's a key categorization for people that lead firms. You're going to make mistakes; just make them quick and move on. Once you make a mistake, try to fix it. I see a fair amount of people that are suffering from analysis paralysis. I think that actually is because of data, too. There are so many different hunks of data out there that people can study. By the time you figure out what it is you want to do, it's too late. I think that's true with clients and that's certainly true with agencies. I trust my gut. I trust my eyes. I trust my instinct. I'm a coach by trade, too, and I think there are certain skillsets that come from coaching groups of kids and high school and college kids and getting a group of people to work as a team. Those are transferrable skillsets. The things I wish I could do over again – that's a trick question because everybody has a thousand of them, but I don't really think about them. I'll give you one, but I don't really think about them because you make a decision, you go with the decision, you do it based on what your gut and data tell you to do, and if you revisit it, you're going to drive yourself mad. I mean, I have a beautiful wife, I have great kids, I have a great company. Would I have gotten here if I had made other decisions? Who knows? But I'll tell you one thing. I'm sure no one's ever gone way back to when they were 12 years old, but when I was 12 going on 13, I was a really, really good baseball pitcher. I've told this story before. Stay with me; it's relevant. I had a choice at that time. I could've played on an elite team in my hometown that would've developed my skills, honed my skills. I would've found out how good I could've been. I stupidly at that point – perhaps not – chose not to play on that team. I chose to play on a lower level team because that's where my friends were. That one decision caused me to lose skills. I was never able to find out how good I was. I spent literally the next 8 years trying to find out how good I could've been as a baseball player, and I couldn't play in high school baseball. I wasn't good enough. I could've if I had made that choice. I did play in college, but it took me 5-6 years of training to catch up, and I was one of those athletes that the older I got, the better I was. I sat on the bench. I got on the team. But by the time I got into my mid-twenties and thirties and forties, and now as I'm 60, I can throw a baseball better than most at any other age, still. I love the game. The lesson is, if somebody presents an opportunity for you to explore and find out how good you can be, even if it's painful, even if it makes you uncomfortable, even if it pushes you outside your comfort zone, you take that shot and you go find out. Because if you don't, it's going to cost you years to find out how good you could be. It took me 8 years to undo one decision I made when I was 13 years old. I've never forgotten that. ROB: Yeah, and gladly, you do get to take that with you as you go. I wonder if it ties in a little bit – when I look at the sort of clients that you have and the way you've grown and the way you're still accelerating into acquisitions, I see the sort of firm that probably easily could have been acquired three times over, or you could've found somebody else to run it or something else. What keeps that fire burning in you to keep the gas going on the business, to not take a big check from some sort of ownership group that comes along, that sort of thing? STEVE: Well, to be clear, if anyone out there has a big check, please provide them with my email and contact information. No, I'll go back to when I was 13, man. That meant that I had a chip on my shoulder. I had something to prove. There was a certain anger and a fire in me that I think has gone to the point of where I am now at 60, where I'm like, I'm not done, man. I still want to try to compete at the highest level. I want to find out how good I can be. I think on a different level, I feel a responsibility as a company to defend the human right brain from the marginalization of it that's being caused by technology and data. I think I feel an obligation to be a defender of all things human at a time when we're trying to be algorithmically discounted. I think there's an opportunity for a company out there to have a good human soul, to be a non-arrogant, non-know-it-all marketing partner that is filled with confidence but not arrogance. And I don't think there are many companies like that. Meanwhile, I sit in a corner of the country where there's an opening for a firm like ours to provide a resource to a certain segment of clients that are interested in anthropology, that are interested in understanding their customers better, that are not interested in juggling llamas, that are interested in better connections. I always like to say, too, that we as a company are a terrible first date. We're awful. On your first date – it certainly was true with me – that's when you're at your absolute most artificial. You make yourself look as good as you can possibly make. You make sure that you say the right things. You're very measured. You prepare. The first date is an artificial presentation of who you aspire to be. You get down to second, third, fourth dates, then the real you is revealed. We're terrible at being artificial at that first thing. If somebody asks me a question, I'm going to give you an answer. I'm not going to bull anybody. I'm not going to try to shovel anything. If they ask me what I think, I'm going to tell them. That second, third, fourth date kind of stuff – when I put on a pair of pants and go to my wife now and say, “Do these pants make me look fat?”, my wife will say, “Sure, they do. So change them.” You have to get to a certain comfort level with a person, with a client, with an agency, where you have that kind of value conversation. I think there's need for that, and I don't see enough of it in the world or in our region. So I'm going to keep going till I don't. ROB: Sure. It's wonderful to see that burden on both sides to be a place that is worth working for and also one that's worth working with. There's certainly not enough of those. I don't talk to people with regular jobs that often anymore, but I think about the conversations complaining about them. STEVE: We'll see, too. One of the biggest struggles most agency leaders and most company leaders are going to have is the work from home discussion and the reality of how people like to work. Ours is a business, I believe, that's an organic exchange, but there's certain aspects to working from home that people have discovered, in terms of productivity, in terms of balance, that are good. How are you going to rebuild a corporate mentality and structure? I find it absolutely mind-boggling the amount of companies that are going to unilaterally embrace work from home all the time because they said that they have been productive during COVID. And we have been. All of us have been remarkably creative in figuring out ways to manage, but we've all been playing by the same rules. Now the rules are going to change, and I think some people are going to do it differently. A lot of people are going to move their companies to be unilaterally work from home, and it's a money grab. You're going to be able to cut out a bunch of operational expenses and put them in your pocket under the guise of work from home. And I don't know the answer, by the way. We're going to figure it out together here. But some sort of a hybrid model, certainly initially over the next year while we try to figure out how to keep the best of what COVID management has revealed in all human beings as we've worked from home – because surely some really good things came out of it – and combine that with the best of working together in an office environment where spontaneity and organic exchange can happen in ways that it can't when you work from home. That's going to be fascinating. Like I said, I wish I knew the answer, man. I don't, but I'm going to go on my rather substantive gut, and we'll see what happens. We'll be willing to change and adapt going forward. ROB: That'll be a great conversation going forward. Steve, when people want to get in touch with you and connect with Connelly Partners, where should they go to find you? STEVE: My email is sconnelly@connellypartners.com. I get a gazillion emails. I read them all; I don't respond to them all because I'm trying to get through them all. I think the easiest thing to do is just shoot me an email and I'll get back to you. I'm not a big social media guy, and one of the reasons for that – and I hope you and your audience understand – it's not that I'm a Luddite; it's just that I believe in honesty, and honesty is not unilaterally embraced in a lot of places. So I'm going to not expose myself in a position where somebody's going to misconstrue something. I have been in positions where I have said something innocuous and honest and some people want to take me to task for that. The debate is exhausting, so I choose not to have it. I'm big on LinkedIn. Our company is a big social participant. If you go to our website, to where we are on Instagram, on all social channels, you can get a feel for our culture and our people. You can get a feel for our approach and our philosophy. But if you want to talk to me, send me an email and I'll call you. ROB: Sounds excellent. Steve, thank you for coming on the podcast. You've really got a great deal of wonderful things to share. We could go on for three times this long, but we'll put that off to another time and wish you and Connelly Partners the absolute best as we all have our revenge tourism. STEVE: Thank you, man. I would just leave this parting thought with everybody: be as positive as you can going forward. Be a little less angry. I was reminded of that 3 days ago. It snuck up on me. I think it sneaks up on all of us. Let's go back to trying to be a little less angry and a little bit more huggable. ROB: [laughs] Perfect. Love it, Steve. Thank you so much. STEVE: Rock on. Take care, buddy. ROB: Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

1. on the lam 潜逃 Ross终于发现了Chandler和Monica的地下恋情，于是发疯似的冲到对面，Chandler吓坏了，准备逃跑说I am going on the lam. lam 潜逃，逃亡be on the lam 或 go on the lam 潜逃中Chandler: (To Monica) Wow! Listen, we had a good run. What was it? Four? Five months? I mean, that's more than most people have in a lifetime! So, good-bye, take care, bye-bye then! Monica: What are you doing?!Chandler: Oh, I'm going on the lam..2. mess around 瞎混，胡闹 看到Ross发火，Chandler赶紧说自己和Monica不是mess around 而是真爱。 mess around 胡闹，瞎混，浪费时间例句：That Romeo tried to mess around with every lady in the office.那个自以为是罗密欧的家伙勾搭办公室里每一位女士。Ross: (To Chandler) I thought you were my best friend, this is my sister! My best friend and my sister! I-I cannot believe this!Chandler: Look, we're not just messing around! I love her. Okay, I'm in love with her.Monica: I'm so sorry that you had to find out this way. I'm sorry, but it's true, I love him too.(There's a brief pause.)Ross: (happily) My best friend and my sister! I cannot believe this. (He hugs them both.) (To Joey and Rachel) You guys probably wanna get some hugs in too, huh? Big news!Rachel: Awww, no, it's okay, we've actually known for a while.3. kick in 凑一份钱 修理工要退休，住户每人kick in 100块开party. 在口语里kick in 意思是为某项活动出钱，等于以前提到过的chip inSteve: I came to talk to you about Howard.Ross: Howard?Steve: Yeah, he's the handy man. He's gonna be retiring next week and everyone who lives here is kicking in a 100 bucks as a thank you for all the hard work type of thing.Ross: Oh that's nice.Steve: Yeah. So, do you want to give a check? Or…Ross: Oh. Uhh…Steve: Oh look, you don't have to give it too me right now! You can slip it under my door. (Points to his apartment across the hall.)Ross: No-no, it's not that, it's just… I-I just moved in.Steve: Well, the guy's worked here for 25 years.Ross: Yes, but I've lived here for 25 minutes.Steve: Oh, okay, I get it. (Starts to leave.)Ross: No wait, look. Look! I'm sorry, it's just I've never even met Howard. I-I mean I don't know Howard.Steve: Howard's the handy man!Ross: Yes but too me he's just, man.Steve: Okay, fine, whatever. Welcome to the building.4. cheapstake 小气鬼 Ross不肯出钱被人称作cheapskate cheapstake 小气鬼 类似的说法还有miser, penny pincher.Ross: …so then President Steve told everyone that I was a cheapskate, and now the whole building hates me! A little kid spit on my knee! Y'know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna throw a party. That's right. For everyone in the building, and I'm gonna sit them down and explain to them, I am not a bad guy. I am not a cheap guy! I'm just a guy who-who stands up for what he believes in. A man with principles.Chandler: (To Rachel) Sounds like a fun party.5. hit 热门的（人，影片，歌曲，书籍...) Phoebe为party出了钱所以大家很欢迎她。Phoebe说I am a hit. 我很红，我很受欢迎。类似的说法The movie is a hit. The song is a big hit.Guest #1: See ya Phoebe! Oh and hey, thanks for chipping in!Ross: You chipped in?!Phoebe: Yeah, uh-huh, a 100 dollars.Ross: Phoebe! I can't believe you gave them money! I thought you agreed it was totally unreasonable that they asked me for that money!Phoebe: Yeah, but they didn't ask me! Y'know? This way I'm just y'know, the exotic, generous stranger. That's always fun to be.Ross: Yeah, but you're making me look bad!Phoebe: No I'm not. No! If anything I'm making you look better! They'll see you talking to me and that's--I'm a hit!6. talk up 大声说，赞扬 Phoebe为Ross 说好话。I am talking you up to people. talk up 大声说，赞扬Talk sb up 为某人说好话He'll be talking up his plans for the economy. 他将夸大他的经济计划。Ross: (tapping her on the shoulder) Phoebe? Phoebe?Phoebe: Ooh. (Turns to him.)Ross: Look, this is a disaster! Can't I please just go?Phoebe: No! No! I'm talking you up to people. Just give it a little time, all right? Relax, get something to eat! Okay?

So You Made 100K on a Land Deal Now What (LA 1302) Transcript: Steve: Steve and Jill here. Jill: Hey. Steve: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala Jill: And I'm Jill Dewitt broadcasting from sunny Southern California Steve: Today Jill and I talk about, so you made a hundred grand on that last land deal, now what? Jill: I know what. Steve: Well. Jill: Do it again. Steve: Celebrate. Yes, first you need to take 10 minutes and celebrate. Maybe do shot of tequila or something. Jill: Yeah, tens good. Ten minutes is good. Steve: Whatever works for you. Eat a piece of chocolate cake, I don't know whatever works for you. Jill: What is yours? Steve: And that's the whole show. Jill: Quick. You want to celebrate? What? Can I have a budget? I made a hundred thousand dollars. How much money can I spend from my separation? Steve: You know, Jill and I made a huge amount of money one time on a real estate deal. You know what we did? Bought new computers. Jill: Yeah. It went to the business and it made us more effective and it, and I was just so happy. Yep. All right. Quick, you give yourself $500. What are you going to do? Steve: God, I haven't thought about something like this in a long time. Because usually I just go do whatever I want. Jill: I know but- Steve: For 500 bucks, what would I do? You know what I would do? Call up my buddies, probably bring you and your friends, girlfriends, and just pay for everybody's night out. Jill: That's very sweet. Well, now I feel like a little bit like a heel because mine's different. Mine is I call no one. Steve: Oh my God. Is this a spa day at that MZ diamond acquisitions? Jill: No because I have $500, it's just a spa day. That's it. I call no one, I turn off my phone, I leave it in the car and I'm gone for several hours. That's how I celebrate. Steve: Jill, I speak frankly, here. You should be doing that once a week anyway. Jill: I know. I should but spa's are kind of closed right now. Steve: Why don't you schedule that? Jill: Because the spa's are closed right now. That's, trust me, don't you, don't think I'm not, that's not on my list. Steve: Can't you have like a masseuse come to the house? Jill: I haven't really tried that hard but I could probably work on that. So, but thank you, that's not what this show's about. Thank you. Steve: Yes it is. This is about a hundred grand. It's totally about this. Jill: Okay, I guess so. Okay, yes because I just learned, I didn't know of any that would come to the house. And I just heard from somebody recently that they know someone. So that's in the works. But do you know what? I still don't want to do it in my own house. I have to go somewhere because I don't want to have to hide. And you know, I want to just, I'd like to go and be treated. Steve: You want to go somewhere and do that? Huh? What if I leave the house? And then- Jill: It's still not that great. I want to go be treated. Steve: This is interesting. Jill: You know what I want to do? Steve: You learn new stuff about your mate every day. Jill: I want to go to Terranea, or something equivalent, and just really have a nice, nice time. Thank you. Steve: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill: Okay. Mohad wrote, I've been practicing using Real Quest Pro to pull data in an area I'm looking to send my first mailer. Once I enter all the criteria and submit, it seems like a lot of the data I pull has some sort of housing on it. I'm entering in zero to 0% improvement and I'm still getting many buildings slash houses. I don't want to waste money on records with houses. I've gone through each land use to figure out which is pulling the records with the houses, but it looks like they are just blended in with several uses. Any suggestions on how to get rid of the houses, to be sure I'm doing something wrong? Steve:

So You Made 100K on a Land Deal Now What (LA 1302) Transcript: Steve: Steve and Jill here. Jill: Hey. Steve: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala Jill: And I'm Jill Dewitt broadcasting from sunny Southern California Steve: Today Jill and I talk about, so you made a hundred grand on that last land deal, now what? Jill: I know what. Steve: Well. Jill: Do it again. Steve: Celebrate. Yes, first you need to take 10 minutes and celebrate. Maybe do shot of tequila or something. Jill: Yeah, tens good. Ten minutes is good. Steve: Whatever works for you. Eat a piece of chocolate cake, I don't know whatever works for you. Jill: What is yours? Steve: And that's the whole show. Jill: Quick. You want to celebrate? What? Can I have a budget? I made a hundred thousand dollars. How much money can I spend from my separation? Steve: You know, Jill and I made a huge amount of money one time on a real estate deal. You know what we did? Bought new computers. Jill: Yeah. It went to the business and it made us more effective and it, and I was just so happy. Yep. All right. Quick, you give yourself $500. What are you going to do? Steve: God, I haven't thought about something like this in a long time. Because usually I just go do whatever I want. Jill: I know but- Steve: For 500 bucks, what would I do? You know what I would do? Call up my buddies, probably bring you and your friends, girlfriends, and just pay for everybody's night out. Jill: That's very sweet. Well, now I feel like a little bit like a heel because mine's different. Mine is I call no one. Steve: Oh my God. Is this a spa day at that MZ diamond acquisitions? Jill: No because I have $500, it's just a spa day. That's it. I call no one, I turn off my phone, I leave it in the car and I'm gone for several hours. That's how I celebrate. Steve: Jill, I speak frankly, here. You should be doing that once a week anyway. Jill: I know. I should but spa's are kind of closed right now. Steve: Why don't you schedule that? Jill: Because the spa's are closed right now. That's, trust me, don't you, don't think I'm not, that's not on my list. Steve: Can't you have like a masseuse come to the house? Jill: I haven't really tried that hard but I could probably work on that. So, but thank you, that's not what this show's about. Thank you. Steve: Yes it is. This is about a hundred grand. It's totally about this. Jill: Okay, I guess so. Okay, yes because I just learned, I didn't know of any that would come to the house. And I just heard from somebody recently that they know someone. So that's in the works. But do you know what? I still don't want to do it in my own house. I have to go somewhere because I don't want to have to hide. And you know, I want to just, I'd like to go and be treated. Steve: You want to go somewhere and do that? Huh? What if I leave the house? And then- Jill: It's still not that great. I want to go be treated. Steve: This is interesting. Jill: You know what I want to do? Steve: You learn new stuff about your mate every day. Jill: I want to go to Terranea, or something equivalent, and just really have a nice, nice time. Thank you. Steve: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill: Okay. Mohad wrote, I've been practicing using Real Quest Pro to pull data in an area I'm looking to send my first mailer. Once I enter all the criteria and submit, it seems like a lot of the data I pull has some sort of housing on it. I'm entering in zero to 0% improvement and I'm still getting many buildings slash houses. I don't want to waste money on records with houses. I've gone through each land use to figure out which is pulling the records with the houses, but it looks like they are just blended in with several uses. Any suggestions on how to get rid of the houses, to be sure I'm doing something wrong? Steve:

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Steve Fornier who was sitting in for the vacationing Jim Polito this morning. We discussed a some of the new technology being used in the film industry that is coming from the gaming sector and the new LED soundstages and the difference that is making for actors and filmmakers. Then we discussed the Coronavirus and remote work and online education. So, here we go with Steve Fornier. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Allowing them onto the Business Network, which now gives bad guys access to all of the personal information, intellectual property, and everything else that's sitting there on that corporate network. There are so many issues with this. Craig Good morning. Craig Peterson here. Mr. Jim Polito is out touring Ireland right now. He called in to the show this morning, saying that all of the St. Patrick's Day parades in Ireland have been canceled. We know that they canceled our local parade in Boston, which is one of the biggest in the country, and I think New York City, which might be the most prominent St. Patrick's Day parade, as well. He was telling us a little bit about the difference between the Irish marches and the parades here in the US and Boston. Well, of course, the Irish ones tend to be a little bit more Catholic. Ours tend to be a little less religious. Anyhow, I was on Steve Fornier, he's the producer over in Springfield on those iHeart stations. We talked a little about two things. First of all, some very cool new technology for moviemaking and then a bit about working from home with the Coronavirus. That's right. So here we go with Steve. Steve Tech Talk's Craig Peterson in the house, and I don't know if I've ever actually had the pleasure, so this would be great. It's Steve Fornier, how are you doing today? Craig Doing well. How are you doing, Steve? Hey, you are doing a great job, by the way. Steve Hey, thanks I am trying Craig I think we met sideways once or twice, and I think you were on with Jim, and he had you kind of jump in, so yeah, man. I believe we have met. Steve Yeah, that's they usually just like to keep me out on the side. Let me out of my cage, now and again. Let's talk about movies. Because I haven't seen the Mandalorian, but I do remember the day, maybe the PlayStation two time frame where they started putting movies into video games. I thought that was the coolest thing. Now it seems like they're shooting movies with video game technology. Can you tell us a little bit about that process? Craig Yeah, this is cool. I remember the very first movie they shot using almost entirely green screens. That's been the way it's been for quite a while now. So what will happen is, let's say that there's a desk and a chair, maybe some flowers and one or two other things in the room, those will be real. Then the whole rest of the set is green. You know, think of movies like Jack Black's King Kong, right, Steve? So there he's trying to pretend, and he imagines what's all around him, you know, the jungle scene, the King Kong himself, right, all of these other things. They may get to interact with another actor, but for many, that's not necessarily even the case. And that makes it difficult for actors. It makes it difficult for the director, the production staff, there's remember, there's not just even one director, there's somebody who's in charge of the found somebody who's in charge of the lighting of the cameras, the camera angles, etc. Steve Well, Michael Jordan, I always give him credit because he's not an actor. But in Space Jam, he had to act with a bunch of cartoons. I bet Bugs Bunny was not standing there on stage next to Michael Jordan. He's not on set. Craig Yeah, but what they do for Michael Jordan in that movie in Space Jam. They had little puppets on sticks that they move around, so he kind of know where to look what to do. Then they remove them afterward. They're not like full puppets but little green things on a stick, right. The Mandalorian, which is quite a good show. It is slower-paced than many. Think of it like Breaking Bad in a movie. They shoot the Mandalorian using an entirely whole new technology in a soundstage. As we've been talking about with green screens and such. Television screens surround the soundstage. The roof was all screens though all Walls are screens. Everything covered with screens. As you mentioned here, Steve, this is using some of the technology from video games. It is amazing. So there's the actor on an LED set, and he can see all of the backgrounds. Nothing is greenscreen. It is a whole new change and an entirely different way of doing it. Steve I would like to take a vacation in one of these things. Just plop me in that thing with a chair and put on a beautiful Sunset over seascape and let me hang out on that thing for three days. That sounds fantastic. Yeah. Craig Like a holodeck, right on Star Trek. Are you familiar with that? Steve Oh, yeah, of course, of course. But I have to assume from an editing perspective, that it makes it a lot easier to edit because it would reduce the process. The time it takes with the green screens removing puppets inserting the characters. I imagine on the back end of things it's got to make the production faster. Craig What surprised me was looking at an article with pictures of the whole stage, including the cameras. Now, remember, again, the camera director and the film director and everybody can see what's going on, which is enormous. And they are in real-time said you know what? That building there in the background is distracting. Let's move it over as though it's 50 feet to the right. Wow. And they were able to do it right then. Right live. The other thing that surprised me about it was that if you look at it with your regular eyes, it seems severely distorted. I mean, like the straight line isn't necessarily straight, right it can be going off in all kinds of weird angles, some of them are curved, and it's all rendered based on what the camera sees and what the camera is seeing. So the camera sees everything correctly. The actors can see what's around them. They can even see the horizon. They can see the sunrise. They can see the bad guys coming at them. They're not there, but now they have something to act around. It's like a 75-foot long set 21 feet tall, and it is impressive. So expect this to be used more and more in the future. It can be the deck of a ship that can be the middle of a desert. It can be anywhere it can be your vacation with Jim right now over in Italy, right? You go to one of these. Steve Yeah, it could be the next video game at Disney World where you're in one of these things, and you got stormtroopers coming at you, and you can use lightsabers and do all kinds of stuff. It sounds like all kinds of different use. Yeah. Craig Very cool. Steve Yeah, we're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru, and you know, let's move on here to the Coronavirus. At the same time, we still have time here, Craig, because everybody's telling their employees just work from home, don't bother coming in, take your work laptop, go home, set it up, connect to the VPN, and we'll do everything remotely. But when everybody's doing that, it is taxing the World Wide Web in general. Craig Yeah, I have training coming up tomorrow. I'm going to repeat this a couple of times because I think it's essential. We're going to do a webinar on working from home because there are so many things people in Businesses just don't understand. And I've been shocked to see what some of them even slightly larger businesses are doing. Working from home is a whole different world. You've got your home computer that might not have patches installed. It probably isn't patched up to date, right? So you have security issues there. Many businesses have people VPN into the office. That can allow that potentially infected home computer or another computer on the network, and it's enabling them onto the Business Network, which now gives bad guys access to all of the personal information and intellectual property and everything else that's sitting there on that corporate network. There are so many issues with this. So I'm going to go through and explain what some of the better ways to do it are. When should you use a VPN? What kind of VPN should you use? And when should you Just try and remote to your desktop that works? What are the pros and cons of that? What kind of people can do that? Or can't do it. I'm going to go through the critical approaches that tactics and tools to get the most from remote work. And if you want to know about this, just go right now to Craig Peterson dot com if you sign up, it comes up on the top of the screen sign up for my mailing list. I'll be sending out an email later today. But this whole trend of working from home, Steve, I think is going to stick because of the aside the myriad of security problems. Yeah. That I think companies are going to have Steve, though. The bottom line is that as a rule, people are more productive working at home. They get more done in the people love it. Right who likes to get stuck in a traffic jam, right? Steve Oh, yeah, I mean, look, I gotta I buzz through. Have concocted a little radio studio in the basement, you know, because I'd rather have to if I'm an emergency do stuff from home than have to, you know, it's a short drive, but have to have it in here and do it, you know? Craig Yeah, it's, I think it's a great environment for most people. And most of the time at work, people are wasting money. Of course, you can make money in the meantime. Of course, you can waste-time at home, right? Get sucked into Facebook or something that you don't want to do. But there are tools for that as well. I use a few. We know we could talk about those. Because these are going to be live webinars. I'll answer everybody's questions. But it is, I think, going to change the economy, this Coronavirus, not not the virus itself, but the panic that's ensued. And so many employers have not tried to have people work at home. They haven't tried to use these digital collaboration systems, which we'll also talk about what they haven't tried to use. We don't things like zoom or WebEx, by the way, zoom, extremely unsafe, very poorly designed versus WebEx. You know, some of these things like, like WebEx has its teams, the same thing people use slack for, etc. We will cover all of those you understand it, and that's the point, Steve, I don't think most businesses have looked into these seriously enough as they grow in popularity. There are businesses, I think, Steve, that we are going to see some significant improvements in productivity, and they're just going to let more and more employees work at home. However, IBM last year pulled back on the whole work at home thing. IBM found for them, anyway, it was more important to have people bump into each other in the hallways and have an impromptu discussion than to have everybody really kind of siloed away. Unknown Speaker 11:57 Real quick, Craig. While I have you on that same topic. Let's talk about college campuses because we're seeing her in Mass colleges sending everybody home and saying work online. Is this the kind of thing that I mean, we've seen a lot of these universities trend online? If there are going to be campuses shutting down for periods, and we know how expensive colleges is, is it something that we could see trending in the college environment? Craig Yeah, it already is. Steve, we're seeing colleges that are now 100% online, and are doing very well. Two of my kids got their MBAs almost entirely remotely, and it's worked out very well for them. So yeah, watch out colleges, with your big fancy campuses and high tuitions. They are getting threatened. Steve, I think it's going to make a big difference. Steve Yeah, Craig, we get it. You have smart kids. Thanks for rubbing it in. I know. If you want to take part in that webinar tomorrow, which btw, sounds fascinating, and I feel like I need to be a part of that. I go home and fire up that VPN, and I don't pay any attention to it, and I probably should. If you want more information like this, from Craig, you can text My name Steve to this number? Craig You can text Steve 855-385-5553, or you can email me anytime with a question. Just meet me at Craig Peterson dot com or text Steve to 855 385 5553. Steve Excellent. Standard data and text rates apply. Again, Craig doesn't bother you or anything, but he does give you the updated stuff. I mean, still, everyone everywhere in all departments and all facets of life is trying to adjust to this Coronavirus. Craig is this staying ahead of it in his line of work. So we appreciate that Craig, thanks for the time as always, and we'll catch up next week. Craig Hey, take care of Steve. Thanks again. Craig It is happening. Keep an eye out on your email Wednesday. I'm planning on having one of these at four, and I may try and do one in the evening as well on Wednesday and then another one Thursday. Watch for my emails today. Take everybody, talk to you tomorrow. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

How did Steve Sheinkopf and the team at Yale Appliance use blogging to grow the company's website traffic from 30,000 visits a month to one million visits a month while increasing revenues by 350%? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Yale Appliance and Lighting CEO Steve Sheinkopf shares his company's journey from a small Boston-based lighting and appliance store that relied heavily on advertising for business, to the world's most trafficked appliance website and a business in the process of adding its third store. Central to Yale's success was Steve himself, who blogged five times a week in the early day's of the company's content marketing efforts and continues to create key blog posts to this day. Highlights from my conversation with Steve include: Yale Appliance is the most trafficked appliance website in the world Steve started blogging in 2007 and at the time, Yale Appliance was spending around three quarters of a million dollars on radio ads. From 2007 to 2011, Steve blogged five times a week, but despite the volume of content he was publishing he wasn't seeing any results.  In 2011, Yale was getting 30,000 visitors a month to its website and today, it gets close to a million a month - all due to the shift that Steve and his team made in the way they undertake content marketing. Yale doesn't talk about itself on its blog - it talks about statistics and facts relating to its products, and that is what makes readers trust them. Steve says blogging is all about building domain authority and to that requires a sustained and consistent effort when it comes to content creation. Steve sees blogging as a core competency of his business at Yale and as such believes strongly that it shouldn't be outsourced. Steve still writes blogs for Yale, but today, the company's sales people blog as well. The company tracks the ROI of its content marketing efforts and can show, using data from HubSpot, that views of its blog and buyers guide have driven millions of dollars in business. Steve writes all of the posts relating to reliability, "best of" lists, and articles detailing problems that frequently occur with certain brands. One of the biggest benefits of Yale's content marketing efforts is that the leads it generates are very high intent. His team can see the content they've consumed on the website and it shows exactly what they are interested in. The average appliance store in 10 years has gained probably 15 to 20% in revenue. We've, increased our revenue probably 350% in the same time. 37 about 122 million in a 10 year period. So that certainly plays a part of that in terms of stores. We've gone from one store to we're adding our third in November which will be our biggest store. The average appliance store in 10 years has gained approximately 15 to 20% in revenue. In that time, Yale has increased its revenue by 350%, from 37 to about 122 million in a 10 year period. They have also gone from one store to adding their third in November which will be the company's biggest store. Resources from this episode: Visit the Yale Appliance and Lighting Website Follow Steve on Twitter Connect with Steve on LinkedIn Email Steve at steve.sheinkopf@yaleappliance.com  Listen to the podcast to get learn how Steve Sheinkopf and the team at Yale Appliance and Lighting used content to drive traffic, leads and sales. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and this week my guest is Steve Sheinkopf who is the CEO of Yale Appliance and Lighting. Welcome, Steve. Steve Sheinkopf (Guest): Good to be here Kathleen. How are you? Steve and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I'm great. I am excited to have you on and I can't wait to dig into our topic. But, not everybody who's listening may know who you are, so can you just tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and your business? About Steve Sheinkopf and Yale Appliance and Lighting Steve: Sure. We're a 97 year old appliance company located in Boston Massachusetts. We sell appliances, lights, we do a lot of service work, and our company's powered by really content marketing and not advertising. That's pretty much what we do. We sell all brands of different appliances, from Sub-Zero down to Samsung and we compete against pretty much 60 Brick and mortar competitors in a 20 mile area plus Online plus Amazon, Wayfair and all the people, Home Depot, that sort of thing. Kathleen: You're being very humble and so I'm going to toot your horn for you because this is like a David and Goliath story. You guys do compete against 800 pound gorillas with huge budgets. If I understand correctly you also in some respects, at least for content and search engine share, you compete against the manufacturers of the appliances that you sell. So on paper this story shouldn't be possible which is what I love about it. But you guys have one of the most trafficked, if not the most traffic to appliance websites in the world. Correct? Steve: Yeah. I think so. Kathleen: It's amazing. So all right, for people who are listening, I have been bugging Steve and his team to try and get one of them on this podcast for about two years now because I first started hearing this story of Yale Appliance a couple of years back. It was before I joined IMPACT I had heard about it from Marcus Sheridan, who plays a role in the story. And then I had the opportunity to get to know these guys better through IMPACT and all along I've just been so impressed. The reason, and it is a classic content marketing story, and I say classic because it's the things we're all told to do. Only you guys actually went and did them which is the big differentiator. But the reason I was so excited to have you particularly on is that most of my guests are marketers and they're already drinking the Kool-Aid. The biggest challenge they tend to have, is getting the C-suite not only to buy-in, but my gosh for them The Holy Grail is to actually participate in the process. And you've been doing this all along. So that's really what I want to talk about. But let's kind of rewind the clock if you would and start back from when you first began. I've heard the story a couple of times but I'm sure everybody hasn't. So maybe you could just tell the tale of how did you guys first travel down this path? Because you're a 90 year old company and you were not always the most trafficked website for appliances in the world. How Yale Appliance discovered content marketing Steve: Oh, clearly not, clearly not. It's a long story but really it starts in 2004. I went to this thing called The In-Planet and it was absolute genius. There's a bunch of it was I think Boston visors or the Bain or McKinsey guys, they were talking about the future of marketing and they were talking about how digital one day overtake outbound and to prepare for it, it wasn't happening yet. And they said. "The least you can do is get on the whole review side, that reviews are going to play a big part of how people are going to purchase from your company." So that's the first thing we did is we got on with all the yelpers and instead of berating them for giving you bad views, we looked inside ourselves to say. " Maybe we're really disappointing people organically." So we started in 2007 blogging. And at the same time it was doubling down on radio. We did a lot of radio at that time I think it was the final number was somewhere around three quarters of a million dollars. And we doubled down during the recession and the more we advertise it was like diminishing returns. I used to ask the phone people anybody called them radio ads. When we started doing it in 2000 it was popular by 2010 no one really seemed interested. So we started blogging in 2007. It was 2011 when I met Marcus Sheridan and I thought it was going to teach Marcus something. The first conversation we have, everybody loves Marcus. He's like a folksy guy and back if we rewind the clock in 2011, at that time I was blogging every day but I wasn't blogging by keyword. I wasn't- Why the CEO of Yale Appliance dedicated himself to blogging Kathleen: Now you yourself were blogging? Steve: Yeah, I was. Kathleen: I just want to clarify that. Steve: I did that five days a week. Kathleen: That's amazing. Did you publish, was it five blogs or was it? Steve: Five posts a week. Kathleen: That's great. Steve: Well it's great when it's good stuff, not so great. And it was well-meaning, but it wasn't... Even when it answered the question I never titled it right, I didn't met a tag it. So our first conversation was just absolute beat down. It was pretty bad, but he was right. At that time we have 30,000 people a month going into our site, which on paper doesn't seem bad but we started blogging strategically and now we expect a million visitors a month, we were busy and somewhere out six, 700,000, we're not. And with that comes certainly more leads, more traffic, more business and that's what this is about. And I can't believe that, I can't believe. But if you were to say to a CEO, look we're going to start this program that's not going to be effective in six months, then you probably not going get much buy-in on the C-suite. But if you say to somebody, I'm going to reduce ad spend to zero and increase revenues disproportionately to your market share - I mean, what does the bottom line look like? And it's a great learning tool and it creates trust and it creates distrust for your competitors that aren't doing this. They're selling products that maybe they shouldn't be. That's a pretty compelling case so if you structure like that, I think people get more buy-in from the people that need to buy in to say this is a revenue expense game and it's what, how people really want to consume stuff. Because nobody really wants to listen to me say how great I am. In fact, we never talk about ourselves. We talk about statistics and facts and helping people make purchases because you go to all these content marketing seminars they talk about trust and that's how you really trying to do. If they trust you and your pricing is good and your execution which is the back half of what I really work on is are we executing to, what our value proposition is? Because blogging without execution is just bad. Work on execution first then blog. So that's the whole story. Kathleen: You raise a really interesting point and I've been in this inbound or content marketing game a long time. I had an agency for 11 years. Something that you said really struck me because you talked about if you say to a CEO, we're going to create blogs and you're not going to see any results for six months, that is what I would say the disproportionate percentage of people in this space say it when somebody says, how long will it take for me to get results? Which everybody wants to know, right? Because that's what it's all about is the results people will always answer with, well it takes time. Six months to a year you'll start to see something. And while there are aspects of content marketing that that is true for, there are also aspects of it that that is absolutely not true. Where you can see some sorts of results right away. And I think you're right when you set that expectation that's going take a while. That's not exactly the best way to sell it. Steve: Well, I mean, blogging is about domain authority. Strictly we use words to cover up what we really mean and you don't become an authority figure with one or two posts. You need to show over a long period of time that you know what you're doing, whether it's getting a client, business, life, whatever it is. You don't become an authority with one good post. That said, if you write about something that's brand new that nobody else's, you could probably rank high pretty quickly. Kathleen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I've always said that the best moments in my content marketing career have been when I googled a question and didn't find an answer for it and I was like, ha ha, I'm right that answer. So what I'm curious about is you actually were convinced even before you met Marcus, that just that blogging in and of itself had value now obviously there was a better way to do it. Why you should insource content creation Kathleen: But what I'm really interested in understanding from you is when you first had this realization that hey, we might need to blog as part of our corporate strategy. What was it that convinced you personally to write? Because I think most of the CEOs I know who have that Aha moment and realized blogging is important. Their first thought is, I'm going to assign that to somebody or we're going to outsource it. Very few think I'm going to do it. Steve: Well, it's like anything else. You want to outsource things that either you're not good at or someone can do cheaper. If you want something to be a core competency you have to do it yourself, right? You can't be good at something, outsource it and then hope it gets better. Right? If you want it to be a core competency where every year, like every month, every week, every, if you're part of it and you're interested in it and intrigues you and it touches the customer it's important. That's something you don't outsource. So it's a matter of I think people that are outsourcing, the losing the whole kind of how do we get better? How do we read, what are customers asking and how are we better solve the problem? Goes into merchandising, it goes into everything we do, what lines we sell, what lines we don't sell. Because we have the finger on the pulse of what we think the customer reacts to. But you're never going to get good at it... Let's forget about if we call it something else, like social media or writing or customer outreach. If you're outsourcing it as a methodology, nobody's going to know your business better than you do. And it doesn't matter which content conference we go to whether it's Impact or Inbound or HubSpot or whatever those. Anybody that's outsourcing with writers from whatever, what Fiverr from Indiana they're just not getting the results they could if they did it themselves and treat it like a crucial pillar of our business of ,your business which it could be, which it should be. Who creates content at Yale Appliance Kathleen: Now in the beginning you were writing five articles a week. What does that look like today? Are you still actively writing or are there other folks in the company that are primarily doing it? Steve: Well, it really depends, but the sales people. Sales people write blogs to varying degrees. I still edit most of them and I still write the important ones. And again, some of the ones I've written have, there are two that are over 2 million, 20 million views. But forget about the views, we have a report that shows people that go into our buyers guide from blogs and how much money we derive from that on a monthly, yearly basis. It's certainly well worth doing financially to do that, be part of it. And again my time spent at the CEO and culture and metrics and enforcing standards, after that really social outreach which I can reach a whole market of people by writing a blog. It's just so worth my time I think. Kathleen: And you mentioned that you write the important posts and that there are certain posts that really take off. What are the topics that you feel like best come from you? Steve: Well, the ones that resonate are the ones that are reliability posts that we were ranked manufacturers based on a service in the first year. I think some industry problem ones, are best from me, I think some of the comparisons other people can do. Again, when you look at blogging, if you want to figure out if your sales people know what they're talking about, you read their blogs. And if they can't tell you what the five best gas range tops are and in a blog they probably won't be able to sell if the customer comes into the store. So is a good learning tool for new people to just read Wiskott-Aldrich. So the time to get a new person up is much quicker. But I write reliability, best and problems ones. Kathleen: Were you always just really comfortable with writing? Is that a format that you gravitate to? Steve: Not initially, I realized the value of it but if you look at what I wrote back in 2007 versus what we write now, it's much better, much different. And that's true of anything. Everyone always says. "I'm an awful writer." Everybody is awful. This saying that every expert starts as a beginner. If you stick with it and you write three articles a week every week, if you're new, by the time one year rolls around, you've written 152 articles. That's enough for authority, but you're going to be much better after a year than you are in the beginning. Everything you do that you practice you work hard on you're going to get better at. Whether it's blogging or anything else in business. Kathleen: Now, do you find that you've gotten faster also? Steve: Yes. I think in blogs now. I've been doing it for since 2007 .I think in blog posts like comparisons and invest because I've been doing it for that long. Kathleen: How long does it take you to produce a blog? Steve: Me? Kathleen: Yeah. Steve: I can produce a blog in probably a couple of hours. The ROI of Yale's content marketing efforts Kathleen: That's great. I think it's interesting because a lot of CEOs would hear a couple of hours and think there's no way. My time is too valuable for that. So you mentioned that you guys have systems put in place to track how he is this content turns into revenue. Can you give me a sense of what that looks like and what that's produced? I don't even know if you can get it down to like what is a blog worth? I'm sure each of them is worth a different amount, but I'd love to understand better what kind of ROI you're seeing. Steve: Well, let's forget the fact that basically the path to purchase goes to the Internet. It has since probably 2005. Alright? So but the way we do, we use a very crude metric. I have Google analytics where I can... that our time on site jumps when you talk about a blog posts really, time on site pages views equal to consumers. But we can talk about store visits, but in terms of share revenue the number that we look at over a 12 month period is anybody that's downloaded a buyer's guide. So let's say you download a buyer's Guide and get 20th. If you come into the store buy with that same email address, we track them and let's just say your friend, partners, significant other, spouse buys under theirs, that's not tracked. So just from the people that download buyers guide, they buy it comes out to be about a million or a million and half per month in revenue. Yeah, that's just that not including... What we tried to do when you look at when anybody looks at Google analytics, typically Marcus said for his pool company, once they hit pages 30, his conversion goes up. For us I think it's seven minutes or 10 and a half pages and blogs play a big part of that. You want to get trust and then you want to execute. And that's kind of how businesses and the blogging is in marketing is half that or say a third of it, the sales and execution, delivery, install, all that stuff has to be in order for this to work. Certainly the articles have to be good, but the delivery experience, the installation experience and the service experience of what we do, which is our differentiating factors have to be as good if not better. Kathleen: So this has had a major implication for your overall business. Obviously it's not just revenue, clearly you're getting a lot of traffic and that's turning into business for you. But can you talk a little bit about some of the new directions that you're thinking of heading in as a result of this? What Yale's success with content marketing has meant for its business Steve: What we've been able to do certainly on the revenue side. The average appliance store in 10 years has gained probably 15 to 20% in revenue. We've, increased our revenue probably 350% in the same time. 37 about 122 million in a 10 year period. So that certainly plays a part of that in terms of stores. We've gone from one store to we're adding our third in November which will be our biggest store. But really what we've done is we've taken that 2% that we normally two or 3%, we normally take in marketing and we put it in customer touchpoints and really the customer touchpoints, are systems and people. We've been able to keep good people because instead of blowing it on $3 million worth of say, Glow Buds or radio spots or something, we have a better medical, we have 401k matching. To me that's... You market to your people first and those people market to your customers. So we've been able to take that wasted spend and put it into areas that people really appreciate. And that's people, systems, displays, warehousing, all that stuff, that's the other half of it. Is to take that money you would have spent and put it where people really want it. The first thing during the recession when we change management, first thing I said is we're going to answer the phone, right? We're going to answer the phone and we're going to be good on the execution side. And we put our money towards that rather than putting money on marketing. And it wouldn't take off if we didn't have some kind of social profile, which that whole blogging is a part of really, if blogging is a core competence that helps people come into the stores and then it's the execution side. It's two parts to this it's not just blogging that drives the revenue. It's the execution that keeps the revenue. Kathleen: It's funny because there's lots of buzz that I hear at least that we could be due for another recession sometime in the next couple of years. When you think about the evolution of the company and how you've done marketing and consider that there is this prospect that we may get hit again with another recession. How do you think the company will fare given your new marketing approach? Because it's very different than what you did the last time around. Steve: I think we'll do a lot better again because one of the things is we're not wasting money. We all know that outbound marketing is a negative ROI deal. I think as long as you understand who your customer is and you're straight and transparent with them, I think you have a leg up over people who do not do that. And that's pretty much everybody in our space. There's some people that are doing it, some people that are doing well, but they don't understand the whole execution side. Kathleen: Now the other thing that I think is interesting is historically you've been a local business. You're in the Boston area and well that's a big local market. It's still a local market and now you're getting all this traffic. I have to imagine a considerable amount of that traffic is not from the Boston area. Some people might hear that and think, well that's great that you have more traffic, but it's not really, that's not valuable traffic because they're not going to be able to walk in the door and buy from you. How do you look at that? Steve: Oh that's very true. 88% of our traffic we cannot sell to. Because delivering an appliance it's not like delivering Sharmane tissues.Especially in Boston because we got brownstones and walk-ups you need very specialized delivery people. That's why we pay the delivery people well because we're not spending it on marketing. But the worst thing you can do is ruin your reputation by not execute. It's a fair question a lot of this traffic is not really valid traffic. Let's take a million people say that we got last month on the blog or 800,000 or whatever it was, say it's 800,000 we'll minimize that means 12% of 800,000 in your market. How many people... We write to a specific audience. So how many people? 12% of a million or 800,000 it's still a lot of people that's still you're writing to 70,000 people. They're not reading your blog because they want to get to something else. It's still a significant amount of people in the market. There's no way to hit, it's like the old days they talked about radio ads. It's like they sold it to you. There's 100,000 home owners but only 2% of them are in the market and only 2% of those will listen to ad. The people that are clicking on a blog posts are showing intent, right? So those are 70,000 people showing you intent because they're clicking on something. It's not like the old radio or TV metrics. So that's still a lot of people looking to buy from you. Kathleen: Do you ever foresee that there might be an opportunity for you to somehow monetize that other 80%? Steve: No, unless we're directly involved in the actual fulfillment of the order. I don't want to be involved. If we look at... There's a lot of really good online appliance stores that have really good interfaces. They put their money on the front end, but if you look at the reviews on Yelp or Google, they're so bad and over time that'll catch up to you. Right? Because really, the one thing that I always tell the people in the marketing department is don't forget that your consumer and the path to purchase is okay, you'll read a blog everyone talks about what's the one thing, it's all about attribution. You'll read a blog post, you'll go online and you're mobile, you'll sit on your tablet, but somewhere down the line you're going to read reviews before you decide to purchase from that company or not. And you don't want everybody loves Impact because you guys do good work. But if you had a two star reputation on like Yelp or Google, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Right. So, I'm willing to... First of all, there's enough business in a local market. I want more, it's cheaper in, and easier and better to be in the Boston market. Than being partly in Boston, in somewhere in L.A. which is actually our biggest market for the blog, New York. I think it's better logistically to stay where you are. Kathleen: I was going to say maybe someday you'll have... You have three stores now maybe you'll someday have 30. Steve: The way it works from a business standpoint, this goes a little bit back to blogging is you have a warehouse. You want to maximize that warehouse, then in a third store you need a bigger warehouse and you want to maximize that warehouse and then you run stores up that warehouse, that's where it becomes the most efficient to do business. Going to L.A and having logistics there and hiring and hiring service people in a whole new network is much more difficult. Steve's advice to other CEOs Kathleen: It's a good problem to have too much traffic and more than you can sell to. I want to go back to this issue of most CEOs don't necessarily see the justification for being personally involved in this. If somebody is listening and they are a Content Manager or the Head of Marketing and they're passionate about creating content for the company and they want the CEO to be involved, As a CEO yourself, do you have any advice for the best way for that person to approach the CEO and get them excited about taking part in this process? Steve: It's like we said in the beginning, there aren't too many opportunities to increase your brand in the profile of that brand. There's not too many ways to create trust and there's not too many ways to raise revenue and reduce expenses at the same time. What is your bottom line look like by raising revenue and reducing expenses? And that's really my job is to... We used to be happy if we reduced expenses by 30, 50, 60,000. Well now we're talking about reducing expenses at our level 700, a million, $2 million in increasing the top line revenues by since we'll be doing it anywhere from eight to 15% a year in a highly competitive market. There aren't too many opportunities to do that. In fact, there aren't any opportunities to do that. And if you're a CEO and your other face of the brand of the company and it comes from you and you're answering people's questions and handling people's problems, that goes a long way in building your brand there. If it isn't that, what else would you be doing? I could sit there and run the warehouse, but there are people that run the warehouse better than me. I could sit on Ops, the people that run operations better than me. It's important for a CEO to understand the metrics of success in the company, but terms of really the overall of really the fundamentals of a P&L we have revenues, we have expenses. If you raise one and lower the other one, that's what we're paid to do. And this is a unique opportunity to do it. Now, do you have to do it to my extreme? No, clearly not. I got involved 12 years ago but if you were to do a post or two a week and maybe handle a couple of dicey problems and show that you have kind of deep seated knowledge of the industry. Especially if you're selling services, which many people do and you show that you handled that problem, a person with that problem is probably going to give you due consideration. Right. That's the way it works. Kathleen: It's very interesting that you brought up the thing about personal brand because that's something that I've been giving a lot of thought to lately. There are so many companies creating content now. You were fortunate or had the incredible foresight to start doing this very early when this wasn't as ubiquitous. I just went to HubSpot's Inbound event there were 26,000 people there who are all drinking the Kool-Aid of content marketing. And you look at crowds like that and you think, wow, all these people are bought in. It's getting harder to stand out and I really believe that one very effective way to stand out is through personal branding. Because anybody can kind of copy generic content, but you can't copy a personal brand that is inherently individual. So I'm curious in your experience for you personally, aside from the business results, what have you experienced as you've put your personal brand behind the content? Like has that resulted in anything for you? Steve: First of all let's not give me so much credit. I ran out of money. I didn't have a choice. Most good content marketers will tell you during the recession, we all ran out at doe. That's why- Kathleen: I owned a business in the recession. And I can definitely second that. That's why I started blogging too. I was like, I have all this time and no money. I'll write. Steve: Exactly. I could've just as easily destroyed a 90 year old company, which I was very close to doing. That's it I'm not really interested in my own personal brand. Really having gone through the recession as both of us have, it's more important for the company to have a strong balance sheet than it is for me to build a personal brand. And personal branding is, brands are like sponges. They can't they get everything, they keep everything that's good and bad about the brand. And the fact that my personal brand, your personal brand impact Yale, we don't know own the brands anyway. It's what's being said out there that really shapes what the brand is. Kathleen: Don't they say that your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room? Steve: Your brand is what other people say. We've lost control of our brand when the Internet became popular. So, really personal branding... I think people appreciate I still answer most of the questions on the blog and I think people appreciate the fact that it's not me I'm not building my personal brand. I think a lot of people need help they're not getting in other places. And what I do is just, I give them the what to do and how to do it. And it's not about building a personal brand at all. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: So interesting. I love your story and it's unbelievable what you guys have done. We don't have too much more time, so I want to make sure before we wrap up that I asked you the two questions I ask all of my guests. The first one being we're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a particular company or individual that you know, who you think is really killing it with inbound marketing right now? Steve: Obviously great adversary Marcus Sheridan his killing it. I think back to our first conversation, there were two thoughts and went through my head as A. I need to do this B. I want him to eat his words. And you know the funny thing is it's like I want it to be better than him. But it never worked out that way because he was on other things it's almost like you go into the battlefield and you get a note from guys saying. "Hey, the land is yours and by the way I love what you're doing and all the rest of it, but I'm busy taking over France or whatever." His journey into his personal brand of videos is really compelling and I think his role with the pool company. I think they do a great job. The person that I liked the most in this space is a Crystal Cornea and what she did at Block Imaging I thought was fantastic. She made buying refurbs cool. She made people in that company feel cool writing about it. For me, I tell people it's good to do because it's good for your personal brand that I shouldn't control your brand. But she made it cool to do that. I've kind of lost touch with Block and what they've done since but I know she's left and she works as a consultant for other people, but I really love the way she goes about it. She's very inclusive and she did a great job with Block. Kathleen: Yeah, she's really impressive and you know, Marcus is, you're right. I interviewed him I think he was my first episode of this year. And the thing that I love about Marcus and you totally hit the nail on the head. He's constantly evolving. And the reason to me is that he's such a student of human nature, which is what makes him great at content marketing. He is not a marketer. He is a student of human nature. And so that is what led him to realize that, hey, we just have to answer people's questions. Right. This isn't super scientific it's almost once you tell somebody they sh they're like, Duh. But it took somebody who wasn't a marketer to figure it out. And somebody who's a keen observer of people. And that's the same thing that he's doing with video. He's a very keen observer of people and how they interact and communicate and so it makes them incredibly successful. Steve: Oh yeah. I think I the fundamentals to content marketing is the same fundamentals of everything else is. A. Do know what you're doing? B. Can you communicate it? And that'll come if you know what you're doing and C. And this is the really important part, this is like the C-level stuff is, are you executed once you've said that? And those three, if you put those three together, you have some special. Kathleen: And I always say also, can you get out of your own way? Because often marketers are their own worst enemies and they take their human hat off and put their marketing hat on and they write like robots and it's just, it's interesting. Steve: So they write and a lot more people are starting to write for search engines and that's troubling too. And they can't basically answer the question. There's so many people that... Everyone talks about tips, hacks, it's got to be 2000 words now or whatever it is. But the person that answers the question that best will get ranked because Google's not stupid they'll give the best experience wins. And if you can answer the question on a 1,000 words and is more compelling than the person writing 2000 words and you'll win. Kathleen: Right. The only correct answer to how long does an article need to be is as long as is required to answer the question. Second question is, the world of digital marketing is changing really quickly. And obviously your a CEO, you're not wearing the marketing hat in the company, but you're somebody who is keenly aware of marketing. How do you stay up to date and make sure that you're not falling behind the times with marketing? Steve: That's a great question now that I'm in Boston now I've commuted to stores. I actually have a commute. So I podcast a lot and there's some good marketing podcast. Patel has a very good one, Tony Robbins has a good one, some of the paid search guys have good ones. There's five or six, I'll listen to I'll read blog post and then I'll go to some conferences. Impact has become important over the last couple of years.Certainly HubSpot, we've been going to HubSpot they used to have it at the, at the Hilton hotel and [Copley 00:37:51] two rooms. When I was there initially I think it was 400 people in two tracks. And RF, which is the Retail Foundation in January they put a good one in New York, such marketing conferences and other one I'll go to like four or five conferences a year. If there's a good class I'll do that, Linkedin learning is apart, Social Media Examiner, they have to get some good stuff too. So it's a constant because everything changes and you want to be on top of that certainly. Kathleen: It Can be very tough to keep up with but I do think it's a matter of picking your five or six sources that you really love and just sticking with those and you've got anything else on top of it. That's gravy. Steve: The one thing is it's you can only be especially if you're a small team and I think this is geared more to a small business maybe, but you've got a small team or if you're a single person, like me and Pat were initially. You can only be very good in it one or two aspects. You can't be great at blogging, great at Instagram, great at Pinterest, great at Google ads. You can't be great at like there are 10 things that you can be really great in marketing that can move the needle, but pick one or two. That A. Figured out where customers are and you learned Google analytics for that. And two figure out what your passions are. If your passions with photography, like I'm not, Instagram would be a good one for you, Pinterest would be a good one for you. Wherever you think you can really dominate a certain aspect, rather be just mediocre at everything. You do not need to everything you needed to one or two things really, really well. Kathleen: Right. That's the old Jack of all trades, master of none problem. Right? Steve: Very true. How to connect with Steve Kathleen: This has been so great if somebody wants to learn more about Yale Appliance or connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Steve: I don't really know. Kathleen: Visit your website I would assume, right? Steve: Yeah. I'm on Twitter I guess like everybody else. I've got 3000 followers. I have no idea who they are. Certainly LinkedIn, my email address, you can certainly give steve.sheinkopf@yaleappliance.com. This community it's been really good to me and I'm happy to really answer any questions that anybody has. About marketing or inbound marketing or anything else. So email, Linkedin. My name is Steve Sheinkopf obviously, Twitter that type of stuff. I'll get back to you eventually. Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put the links to all those things in the short notes. And of course you already said that you answer all the questions on the blog. So I would think that people could go there and if they have questions about appliances, they know who to ask. You know what to do next... Kathleen: And if you're listening and you learnt something new, or you liked what you heard, of course, please leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That's how we get funds. And if you know somebody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week. Thanks Steve. Steve: Alright. Thank you Kathleen.

He’s invited by some of the world's top salesmen to help them sell more.    He’s incredible...and amazing at it - I’ve learned SO much from him.    Every time he speaks, I take out a pen and paper...    (Hint, hint...cue, cue...to everybody here!)   Please take out a piece of paper and take notes!    This is a man who’s likely to make MORE money arrive in your pocket just by listening to him... ;-)   Mr. Myron Golden. Myron: Hey, Steve. How are you doing, man?    Steve: Fantastic. Thanks for being on here, man.   Myron: Absolutely my pleasure to be on Sales Funnel Radio, talking to one of my favorite trainers...teachers… ‘OfferMinds…’   Ooh, did you see what I did there?! ;-)   Steve: That's good!     Honestly, thanks so much for taking the time. The feeling is mutual.    I have notebooks upon notebooks from your things.    Every time you come speak...or anytime I’m at Inner Circle or one of Russell's events, I’d fill a WHOLE legal pad.    And thinking…     "Oh, man, that was amazing."       "No, that was better than the last."        "Oh, my gosh, they're getting better…”      Myron: You're kind, thank you.   Steve: You are just an incredible salesperson.    You have so much skill and so much knowledge...    I've watched you unplanned…    (...and I know you've done this multiple times!)    ….get up and pitch someone's product better than they pitch it to an audience that doesn't know you…   AND you'll make MORE sales than the actual owner of the product!   How do you do that?! I know that's a huge question, but that's amazing…   HAVING NO INHIBITIONS   Myron: First of all, how I do that in particular, is how I sell.    First and foremost, I have to believe in the thing that I'm selling. If I believe in the thing that I'm selling, then it's easy for me to sell it.    What I mean by that is...   Most salespeople don't even realize that they haven't gotten out of their own way yet.    Most people who sell things, whether they sell cars, or sell shoes, or sell online courses… or whatever...     … they believe that selling is doing something ‘TO’ people not doing something *FOR* them.    So first and foremost, I look at selling as a service.    I look at it as something that I do *FOR* people’ that makes their lives better. It makes the world a better place because people like me are selling.   So I don't have ANY inhibitions.    For example...a pitcher will have pain in his shoulder, and he can't throw the ball as fast, or a golfer will have pain in his back and he can't swing.    Because subconsciously, his body knows that, “This movement is gonna hurt me or hurt someone.”    Right?    When we are incongruent or when we have incongruence about selling in general, that makes it hard for us to sell things.    I think the thing that I have going for me when it comes to selling is that I have *NO* incongruence in me whatsoever.    If I feel like a product isn’t good, then I wouldn't sell it to somebody in the first place!    Does that make sense?    Steve: Yeah, that makes sense.   Myron: I get out of my own way.   Steve: And I mean, you've done that multiple times.    I saw you do that at Dream 100 Con.    I mean, you're the guy that Russell Brunson asks to come re-pitch ClickFunnels' amazing offer after he's pitched!   Myron: Yeah.   Steve: It's impressive.   Myron: I'm honored. I'm honored by Russell. I appreciate him more than I can say...  I've got so much belief in what he offers, that selling a Russell Brunson coaching program is easy for me to sell.   (...even though he doesn't consider himself a guru, okay? I'm gonna call him my bounce-back guru.)    Because I went out, made a fortune and had a lot of great things happen in my life.    And then…    I went through seven years of life devastation.   Like every year, major tragedy after major tragedy, of some kind, happened in my life.    ...from 2007 through 2013.    I signed up for another coaching program in 2014 and I just didn't like that kind of work.    I don't believe that the key to success is to find something you're passionate about and the money will follow.’’   I DON’T believe that's true.   Steve: I don't either.   Myron: But I do believe that…    If the work that you’re doing doesn’t match the person that you are, you will never create wealth or massive world change in that arena - because your ‘doing’ has to match your ‘being’.  Right?    The coaching program was great; they had a lot of people making A LOT of money...it just wasn't the kind of work that suited me.    After that in 2015, I joined Russell's Inner Circle and my life has been on an upward trajectory financially, ever since then.    Selling a Russell Brunson coaching program? That's like the easiest thing in the world for me to sell!    Because he is the one person who I can point at and say, incontrovertibly, has helped more people to become millionaires in a shorter period of time than ANY other human being I've ever known of.   Steve: Yeah, not even just “known of”. I've never heard of anyone doing that!   Myron: Exactly.    And he's not an MLM guy. He's just a guy who teaches you frameworks that work.    So standing up and selling his product is easy because…    I wasn't selling the product I was selling the payoff   ...and I know what the payoff is because I get paid from that payoff all the time!   So that's why, if I can look at something and it makes sense, then it's easy for me to see how it makes sense...    ...then it's easy for me to say HOW it makes sense in a way that's easy for people to receive.   Steve: It's powerful stuff! And you know what's funny?   I feel like there's a lot of people who are jumping in entrepreneurship…   (which is great!)   ….but they do it under this notion that it's NOT sales, it's “entrepreneurship”.    But  like,  “ Eh, entrepreneurship IS sales. It's a sales role."   Myron: Yeah, exactly.   Steve: And if you're lying to yourself about that, you're already a bad entrepreneur!   To be an entrepreneur is to be a salesperson.   Myron: Exactly.   Steve: How can people be better?    How can they get rid of the inhibitions around selling?   Myron: Let's start with this.    So as you just said…   The reason that people say, “I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not a salesman,"    (What does that even mean?)    ...that is because they think there's something inherently wrong with sales!    But I'm gonna fix that right now.    BLOOD & SALES   …. the people reading right now - they can agree or disagree.    If you disagree ...here's what I'm gonna say to you…   ”You've been wrong before… congratulations, it's happening again!”   So I happen to have some money in my pocket….   ….if you take some money out of your pocket, any amount of money… and you look at that money - just check it out - and you’ll realize that:    All of the money that you have...    All of the money you will ever have...   To do the things…    You desire to do for yourself...   For the people that you love...   The causes that you care about...   The only reason it's possible for me, you, or anyone else to ever have money is because somebody somewhere sold something to someone for a profit.    PERIOD.   (I wasn’t gonna go here, but I will…)   Money is like blood, right?    Money is like blood, in that, money is stored in a bank.    Where's blood stored?    Steve: In your body.   Myron: Well, no, it's stored in a blood bank.    Money is stored in a money bank, right?    Steve: Oh, I get what you're saying.   Myron: Blood is stored in a blood bank.    Blood has to be in circulation in order to give life to your body and money has to be in circulation in order to give life to the economy.   Steve: I love that.    Myron: Right? So money is very much like blood.  Blood carries oxygen to every part of your body.    Money doesn't really carry oxygen, but it does help you breathe.    … because when you don't have any money, you feel like you can't breathe.   Steve: That's true.   Myron: Right?    But also…    Money is a mass noun, just like blood is a mass noun.    Yesterday, I went and got some blood drawn - I didn't go get ‘A blood’ drawn, I got SOME blood drawn.    … even though it's singular, it's a mass noun.    So you have to put “some” (which is plural) in front of a singular word.    You'd never say "I gave A blood," because that doesn't make any sense.    I gave SOME blood. Well, guess what?    When it comes to money, you wouldn't say, "I gave A money..."   It's SOME money.    Money and blood are both mass nouns.    Money and blood are both fungible.    Q: Now, what does fungible mean?    Well, you drove my car when you were in Tampa.   Steve: Yeah, great car, beautiful car.   Myron: With my name on the floor mat.   Steve: On the floor mats right there, that was...wooooo!   Myron: I drive a Bentley Continental GT.    If I let Steve borrow my car, when he brings my car back, my car is NOT fungible.    It's a car, but he can't bring me back a Volkswagen Jetta and say, "Here Myron, here's a car."    You have to bring back the same car!    ...or at least the same kind of car in, at least the same kind of condition.   (Preferably my car, right?)   So if somebody borrows a car, a car is NOT fungible.    If somebody borrows my golf clubs...    (… I wouldn't let somebody borrow my golf clubs 'cause those are my babies!)      But if I did, it's like, "No, you can't bring me back some other golf clubs."    "Well, they're golf clubs! What difference does it make?"    No! Golf clubs are NOT fungible.    If you give blood at a blood bank and then get in a car accident, you need to go get some blood… they don't have to search through millions of pints of blood to find the exact blood you gave!   Steve: "Oh, here are your cells!"    Myron: Exactly.    They just have to find the same blood type.    It's like with money.    Money is fungible.    If you loan me $5, you don't care if I pay you back the same bill.    Or if you owe me $50 then you don't care if I pay you back a $50 bill. Or two $20s and a $10 or five $10s or 10 $5s.    You don't care.    Q: Why?    A: Because money is fungible.    As long as it's the same currency type (#American dollars), you don't care.    You don't wanna loan me $50 in American dollars and I give you back Costa Rican dollars.    That wouldn't work.    So…    Money and blood are very much alike.   So here's what you gotta realize.    The only reason any of us EVER have any money in our pocket to do…   The things we wanna do    The things we desire for ourselves    The things we desire for people we love or the causes that we care about    … is because somebody somewhere sold something to someone for a profit.    Here's what that means:    Just like money is the blood, it keeps the economy alive, money is the lifeblood of the economy.    Salespeople are the heart of the economy that keeps the blood flowing.    If you are in sales, free yourself from the idea…from this ridiculous Hollywood notion that selling is somehow doing evil in the world.    Hollywood does way more evil in the world than salespeople!   The government tries to demonize business and salesmen and entrepreneurs while they do WAY more evil in the world.     Here's what you gotta realize...    Being a person who is in sales (a salesman or saleswoman) is one of the most noble, honorable positions and vocations in the world.     You make the world go ‘round.   Once you realize how essential salespeople are in the world and how much joy they bring into the world?   Salespeople bring joy into the world!    Remember how good you felt last time somebody sold you a new car? Or somebody sold you a new house? You felt great!   Why?    Because they sold you something that made your life better.    Salespeople bring more joy into the world than almost any other profession.    So once you wrap your mind around what selling really is…   … that FREES you up from all those internal conflicts and incongruencies that create the cognitive dissonance that restrict you from going out and making your offers boldly.   Steve: I 100% believe that.   Myron: That was a long answer.   Steve: But it's an amazing answer.    It drives me crazy…. "Money's evil."    Money is NOT evil, money is an amplifier.    I feel like (most of the time) when someone is NOT good at sales, usually they need to redefine their relationship with money.    They have so many *false beliefs* around money.   Myron: Absolutely.   Steve: Do you find that to be true?    Myron: Absolutely.    I'm gonna say, money IS an amplifier, but I'm gonna add a caveat.   Because money IS an amplifier…    If you're bad, money will make you a worse person, or give you the opportunity to do more evil in the world.    If you're a good person, money will give you the opportunity to do more good in the world   HOWEVER…   Money itself is NOT bad, nor is it neutral. Money itself is good. Money is a good thing.   Steve: Right.   Myron: How can you say money is a good thing?    Q: What is the substance that represents wealth around the world since the beginning of time?    What's that substance?    Steve: Gold.   Myron: Gold, that's right.   Steve: Yeah.   Myron: Gold is the substance that represents wealth.    The first time gold is mentioned in Scripture is in the Garden of Eden.    Here's what God said, "And there was gold in that land, and the gold of that land is good."    Now, wait a minute, wait a minute!    Help me understand something here.    The Garden of Eden is a place where all the food is free.    The Garden of Eden is a place where there were only two people who ever lived there, Adam and Eve, (last I checked, they were married to each other).    There were no stores, there was nothing for sale, and yet God put gold in the Garden of Eden and then, He made sure He told us it was good.   Money is good. It's not neutral. It's not bad. It is inherently good.    You can do bad things with money, but it’s inherently good.    A car is inherently good - it's not bad to not have to walk everywhere you go!    It's good to be able to get places faster and it gives you the ability to save time and put more experiences in your life.    But people have run over people intentionally with cars!   You can do something bad with something that's good but it doesn't make the good thing bad - it just means that a person did a bad thing with it.   Steve: And the person did it, NOT the car, or the gold, or the object!   Myron: You know how you talk about the Capitalist Pig it really irritates people?    THIS MAY OFFEND YOUI'm gonna say something that really irritates people.   Steve: Yeah.    Myron: I'm not attempting intentionally to offend anybody (that's not my intention) but if they get offended…. they should probably grow up a little bit!    So the government talks about gun violence, right?    Steve: Yeah.   Myron: Oh, there's no such thing as gun violence.    I know, I just lost a bunch of people....but I lost the ones I wanted to lose.   Steve: Sure.   Myron: Okay?    There's no such thing as gun violence. I have a whole bunch of guns, not one of them is violent.   (I know I just lost a bunch of people… but I lost the ones I wanted to lose)   Steve: Me too. It's so funny, they're just sitting there and they never harmed anyone.      Myron: They don't do anything to anybody.   They just mind their own business!   In fact, they don't even mind their own business ...because they don't do anything.    They just sit there until I go to the range and I practice.    There's no such thing as gun violence, it's people violence and some of those people use guns.    Nobody talks about...   Steve: Car violence.   Myron: Car violence.    Nobody talks about fist violence.    It's stupid, it's like saying, "My stupid pencil failed that test."    *Your pencil didn't take the test*    Steve: I'm gonna use that one!    I wish I would have known that when I was in elementary school, hah.    “My pencil's broken!”   Myron: "My pencil...I can't believe this... What kind of pencil is this?!”   Steve: So we've gone through and said, “Okay, in order to get better at sales, you really need to embody…” Myron: You have to fall in love with it.   Steve: Sales are incredible.   Myron: You have to fall in love with it.   I love sales and salespeople.    Pray for salespeople every night when you go to bed. Thank God for them every morning when you wake up.    Stop being, "I can't believe that person tried to sell me something."    When somebody tries to sell something to you, get excited about it and watch their process and see what you can learn.   Instead of , "I can't stand these stupid infomercials. I can't stand these stupid commercials….”    I like infomercials… I really love them!    Steve: Me too! I watch them for fun.    Myron: Goodness, they're so entertaining!   I'm like, "Ooh, that is such a great idea!"    Steve: Oh man! So we’re saying …   THE STRUGGLE IS NOT REAL!   Number one: You can't even learn any of the skills or real tactics that you teach if you can't even accept the fact that…    Sales ARE good.   That money IS good.   Myron: Absolutely, absolutely!    And that you are doing good in the world when you sell things to people.    Do you understand that people only buy something because they value the thing they're buying more than they value the money?    It's kind of amazing when you think about it.   Steve: Yeah, money is GOOD. Sales are GOOD.    I'm writing down some of the notes here...    What else would somebody need to do?    I mean these are all major foundational pieces before you even get into tactics…   (or even things that you'll be speaking at OfferMind about)   So what else can somebody do to just increase their sales?    They're like, "Hey, I've got those things, I know sales are GOOD. I know money is GOOD."    What would be the next step?    Myron:    Realize that the struggle is not real, it's imagined.    “But sales are SO hard!”    No, no, no, no, that's just a story you tell yourself.    Sales are NOT hard, you're just NOT good at it.    I love what Jim Rohn said his mentor told him.    He said, "Mr. Rohn, Mr. Rohn. Don't wish it were easier. Wish you were better."   Steve: Ohhhhh...there's some zing on that!   Myron: That's juicy, ain't it?    Steve: It's a little sting, there. A little spicy.   Myron: Yeah, he was like, "Sales is hard."    No, no, no, no. It ain't the problem.    Sales are not hard. Sales are really, really easy! You just don't know how to do it.    Jim Rohn said his mentor, Mr. Earl Shoaff asked him, “So how much money do you make?"    He said, “Well, I don't make that much. I'm broke.”    His mentor said, “How is it that you, being 26 years old and a healthy American male...and you're broke?”    He said, “Well, I can't help it. This is the job I have. This is all they pay.”   His mentor said, “Well, now Mr. Rohn that's not true. Let me ask you a question. Are there people who work for your company that get paid more than you get paid?"    He said, "Yes."    His mentor said, "Well then, that's not all they pay. That's just all they pay YOU."   And I said, "That is so good!"   Steve: I totally I can hear his voice as you say that. You do it well!   Myron: That's all they pay *YOU*    So what we have to realize is…    Mr. Rohn said, "It's too expensive."    "No, Mr. Rohn. The problem is not that it's too expensive. The problem is that you can't afford it."    We always wanna blame it on something outside of ourselves.    We always wanna relieve ourselves from the responsibility to do the thing, but the reality is... the reality is that sales ISN’T hard…   “…I just haven't learned how to do it yet!”   I'm gonna tell you something, Steve.    I have NOT always been good at sales.    When I got started in sales in 1985 selling insurance and investments through a company called AL Williams, I was not even good enough to be bad yet.    I was so bad, I was worse than bad!    I got started in October of 1985 and I did not make my first sale until April of 1987.    I was working and doing presentations... and I was woefully awful.    See, here's what happens.    Most people are not willing to be bad long enough to get good.   I was making offers and doing presentations from October of 1985 to April of 1987.    (By the way, if you're counting that's 18 months before I made a single, solitary sale.)   Shortly after I made that first sale, I became the top salesperson in our office month after month after month after month.    Some of you will say, "Well, Myron. How did you do that? What was it that changed for you, that took you from not being able to make the sale, to being the top salesperson in your office?"    *EASY*    I ran out of all the ways that wouldn't work.   Steve: Mat time!   Myron: The only thing I had left? The ways that it WOULD work.    It's so amazing, Steve.    People resist the only activity that can help them get better at the thing they are desiring to do.   They'll create all kinds of creative avoidance around not doing the one thing, i.e.,    Making offers   Doing presentations.   DON’T HIDE   I'm gonna tell you something, I've got a young lady who's in one of my high-end coaching programs.    Her name's Eileen, I think you met her.    This particular coaching program is $40,000 and they have to put at least half down and then they get on weekly bank drafts, right?    So she's like, "Myron, I really wanna get in this and I don't have the money. I don't know what to do."    First of all, she came to me and she didn't hide from me.    She came to me and said, "I don't have the money. I don't know what to do. What should I do?"    I'm like, "This person's gonna be awesome."    … because when they didn't have the answer, they knew there was an answer…   ... and so they ASKED for the answer instead of avoiding the place where they could get the answer.   Steve: Yes. I'm a student of exceptions.    If you don't have the means, or you don't have whatever...    JUST FIND ANOTHER WAY.    It doesn't mean that you're blocked!   You keep moving!   Myron: Yeah, exactly.   Here's what I told her:    "Eileen, you already have a $4000 offer. Raise the price to six and make more offers.    In fact, take the people who are in your current database right now and give them a date at which you're gonna raise your price to $6000 and give them an opportunity to get it now for only $4000.    Raise your prices."    I said, "Then the second thing you wanna do, raise your prices and make more offers."    Now, here's what make more offers means to me: *Collapsed timeframe*.    Take the number of offers you would do in the next year and do that in the next month!   Take the number of offers you'd do in the next month and do that in the next week!   Take the number of offers you'd do in the next seven days and do that many offers today!    You will have the money in less than 30 days.    She called me a week later, "Myron, I have the money."   Steve: That's SO cool.   Myron: It’s something as simple as “make more offers”.    I can tell you story after story. That's not unusual, but it is unusual to find people who are willing...   To make an offer!    Adjust the offer and then make that offer to another person when somebody says no to their offer   Make that offer just the way it is to 10 more people just to see if the problem is the offer... OR if it’s just the way they're offering it.   Steve: Right, right.   Myron:    Most people won't allow themselves to stay in the game long enough to figure out how to win the game.   Steve: You know, it's funny. I went back and I recounted how many tries it took me... and it was 33 failures over six years!    It was painful...   Myron: Well, why didn't you quit?    Steve: Right? Yeah, I know.    Someone was like, "Why did you think you could keep going like that?"    I was like…   I realized that failure is largely made up. You just learn. Everything is progression. It's not win-lose, it's just progression.   Man, I had a lot of garbage in my own head around the beliefs in money that I had to overcome.   Myron: Absolutely.   Steve: Before I could even sell what I was making in the first place.   ALL WORK *WORKS*   Myron: Absolutely.    What's really interesting that a lot of people don't realize?    They'll say, "But Steve, it's not working! But Myron, it's not working!"    I say, "Okay, first of all, let me help you understand something. All work WORKS."   Steve: I'm gonna put that on my ceiling!   Myron: All work works. There's no such thing as, "I did that thing, and it didn't work."    Oh, it worked.    "No, no, but I made the offer and nobody bought."    It still worked.    "Well, if I made the offer and nobody bought, how can you say it worked?"    See, work is a two-sided coin.    Q: What are the two sides of the coin?    There's the work I do on it    There's work it does on me.    When the work I do on it doesn't do what I thought it would do...then the work it does on me ALWAYS does what it's supposed to do!   I know all work works.    So when I'm working on something that seems like it's NOT working, it's still working on me.    It's so interesting, we were talking about how you had six years... six years you tried all these different things and none of them "worked."    You had six years of failure, about 30-some odd failures but here's what we as human beings fail to realize.    Repetitive use of a limited ability will always produce an increased capacity.    What do I mean?    If I wanna get in shape and started doing push-ups, and I wanna do 30 push-ups, but I can only do five, here's what happens initially after I do five.    The next day I can only do three, right?    Because push-ups, in the beginning, don't make you stronger at first, they make you weaker because of fatigue.    So people think when they become fatigued from the activity that they wanna get good at, they think that means it's NOT working.    But you have to do it over and over again.    Repetitive use of a limited ability will ALWAYS produce an increased capacity.    Unless you do the activity repetitively, it cannot increase your capacity to do that thing.    Eventually, if you do five push-ups today, and three tomorrow, and then five the next day, and then three the next day, and five the next day... all of a sudden, you get down one time and then it’s 21.    Where did that come from?    Repetitive use of a limited ability will ALWAYS produce an increased capacity.    Over that year and a half when I was making presentations and nobody bought, what I didn't realize I was learning two very valuable lessons.    I was learning how to NOT work for money.    I was learning how to hone my message and how to adjust my approach and then go back and do it again.   And that's what I mean when I say I literally became the top seller.    Went from a year and a half no sales...to making a sale...to top salesperson.    “How did you do that?”    I ran out of all the ways that wouldn't work. The only thing I had left were ways that would work.   Steve: I totally get it.    It's kind of the same thing for me... after a while, I was like, "I don't know how else to be bad, or make it not produce cash.”   Myron: Exactly.   Steve: So just so everyone else can see, I've taken so many notes that I even turned the page…   ….now I'm going down this side of the page with notes!   I have so many notes and what's funny is that I've listened to you speak so many times...    Every time I hear you speak, more and more comes out!    I have a greater understanding of why I behave the way I do.    Not just, "How do I sell more?"    It's, "How do I actually behave better?"    It's really fascinating and I want to thank you for that.   Myron: Absolutely, my pleasure bro.   Steve: So you're gonna be teaching a lot of stuff at OfferMind and you're gonna come speak...   Myron: Yes.   Steve: And at the point where you're gonna come speak, people should have a great idea of what their offer actually is.    The core offer, what they should be doing.    Horse blinders on about everything else and just hyper-focused on that one core offer…which is what I'll be doing on the first day.    But you're gonna come in and teach them how to offer the offer.   Myron: How to offer the offer in a way that people expect it.    So many people make the mistake of thinking that the offer is their person.    What do I mean by that?    What they'll do is say, "Well you'll get so many hours of my time."    I say, "How many hours of your time?”    What I want less than hours of your time is for you to have hours of my time!   Steve: Right.   Myron: Okay? So they'll sell their person.    They'll sell their pieces, "Well, this has got five books, 17 videos and 47 audios."    Well, nobody cares about the pieces.   Steve: No, I don't want that.   Myron: Nobody cares about the pieces.    They'll sell their process.    It's fine to teach people the process after they've taken advantage of your offer, but don't sell them the process!    If you sell them the process then they're not gonna buy it.    I'm gonna teach you how to offer the offer...    Q: ...and so how do you offer the offer?    When you're selling to somebody you don’t sell them the process, you only sell them the payoff.    You don't sell them your person, you don't sell them the pieces, you don't sell them the process.    Q: What do you sell them?    You sell them the payoff and you use a concept that I call Emotional Cooperation.    After you use Emotional Cooperation… (and I'll teach you what that means when I get there - at OfferMind…)    ...then you use what I call Logical Justification.    When you combine Emotional Cooperation with Logical Justification, you become what I call a Psychological Artist.    You can hang pictures in people's minds for them to refer to that help them see your offer in a more favorable light. OFFERMIND???Steve: That is powerful stuff and I’m taking notes like CRAZY.    If anyone's watching or listening to this now, and they're like, "Will OfferMind be worth it?"    ...first of all, if you're NOT convinced by now… I don't know what to tell you!    What would you say to somebody who's like, "You know what, I don't know if I should show up to OfferMind?"   Myron: What does that mean?    Steve: Right.   Myron: No, no, I know what you mean.    I'm like, "I don't know if I should show up for OfferMind?"    Some of the greatest marketing and sales minds in the world alive today are gonna be there teaching you how to get BETTER at creating offers, and offering those offers…   ...if you don't know if you should be there…? Perhaps we should come get your family and take them to safety!?!   It's that kind of deal.  THE TWO THINGS...One of my old mentors, Charlie "Tremendous" Jones... I love that man and he was so amazing.    He changed my life in so many ways.   Steve: Oh, I didn't know he was! Oh, that's cool. Wow.   Myron: Oh yeah, I knew Charlie.   Steve: Oh, that's amazing.   Myron: Yeah, I knew Charlie.   Steve: Cool.   Myron: He lived in the same town as me. I used to go visit him.   Steve: That's amazing.   Myron: Like, I would go hang out with him.    Charlie used to say:    Your life would be the same 10 years from now as it is today, except for two things, the books you read and the people you meet.   When he said, "The people you meet", he is talking about the people you associate with.    I have found that NOTHING in this world ... in this life...changes your life for the better like going to live events.    Live events are my vibe.    I get to meet people and interact with people.    If I had never gone to Funnel Hacking Live, I wouldn't even know you and we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.   Steve: No, definitely not.   Myron: When you were at Funnel Hacking Live in San Diego, 2016 and I was at Funnel Hacking Live 2016... I don't even know if I remember meeting you.    Do you remember meeting me?    Steve: No.   Myron: Probably not. No.   Steve: No, no.   Myron: Probably not, right?    We were both there, just as attendees.     And now you're having your event, and I'm coming to speak at your event!   You learn from me, I learn from you.    We make each other's lives better and we help each other's students, it's like...    ...does it get any better than that?!    Steve: I don't know?!   Myron: You will meet joint venture partners and they can open doors for you that you can't open for yourself just by going to live events in general...    But OfferMind! Like really?!!    I mean where will an assembly (other than at Funnel Hacking Live) of this level of marketing and sales genius be converged in ONE place at the same time other than OfferMind?    If you're not there ...where else would you be?!    Steve: I don't know? I've asked the same question.    I'm like, “I don't know why you wouldn't show up to this, it's pretty ridiculous…”   Myron: Your life will change.    I love what JR Ridinger used to say, he is a guy who is the president of a network marketing company I used to be a part of.    He said, "You can change your life in two days."    How long is OfferMind? Two days or three days? Two days?    Steve: Two days.   Myron:    You can change your life in two days. You can get more accomplished in two days than you get accomplished in a whole year by being smart enough to get yourself to that next event. Steve: There’s something about it...   Myron:    It collapses timeframes   It gives you a synergy    It gives you a level of focus that you can't get...that's diffused when you're out here doing your own thing in the workaday world.    When you come into a space where there are that many people focused on sales, focused on marketing, focused on offer creation, dude, it changes everything.   Steve: Yeah.   Myron: Yeah, I'm speaking at OfferMind.    But I'm not just going to OfferMind 'cause I'm speaking, I'd be going to OfferMind if I wasn't speaking.   Steve: Yeah.   Myron: Let's not get it twisted, ladies and gentleman.    Steve needs to go to events, I need to go to events, Russell needs to go to events.    The teacher who has stopped learning has lost his right to teach.   Steve: Okay, amen.    I think about like wings on a plane.    I tell everyone, if you're being coached by someone who's not also being coached, stop listening to them!   They're not practicing the very thing they're teaching you.   Myron: Absolutely.   Steve: Get away from them.     Myron: Absolutely.   Steve: Oh man.   Myron: Don't get stuck like Chuck in a pick-up truck.   Steve: Well hey thanks so much for being on here, thanks for being in Sales Funnel Radio.   I'm just incredibly excited to have you on.   Myron: Me too.   Steve: Guys, go to OfferMind.com and grab your ticket.      By the time while I'm saying this right now, we're pretty much out of VIP seating -  stuff is filling up very quickly.    Go get your ticket and we'll see you September 2nd and 3rd!   You’ll get to listen to Mr. Myron Golden teach you how to offer the offer that I'm gonna teach you how to build on day one.   Myron: May I borrow one of your words?    Steve: Yes.   Myron: BOOM!   Steve: BOOM!   BOOM!    If you're just starting out you're probably studying a lot. That's good. You're probably geeking out on all the strategies, right? That's also good.   But the hardest part is figuring out what the market wants to buy and how you should sell it to them, right?    That's what I struggled with for a while until I learned the formula.    So I created a special Mastermind called an OfferMind to get you on track with the right offer, and more importantly the right sales script to get it off the ground and sell it.    Wanna come?    There are small groups on purpose, so I can answer your direct questions in person for two straight days.    You can hold your spot by going to OfferMind.com.    Again, that's OfferMind.com.

These days, more and more students can — and do — opt out of animal dissection in science classes, and not just because formaldehyde smells awful. As fewer kids are morally comfortable with chopping up an amphibian in the name of their education, an alternative will be needed. VictoryXR’s Steve Grubbs offers a solution through VR, and chats with Alan about how XR can be used to enhance education in other ways, too. Alan: Today’s guest is Steve Grubbs, founder and CEO of VictoryVR, one of the world leaders in virtual reality educational product development. To date, they have created over 240 unique VR experiences, spanning over 50 different learning units, with educational partners like Carolina Biological and Oxford University. They have been able to develop brand new educational encounters for VR users around the globe. Steve is also a member of YPO and was recently featured in an article entitled Virtual Reality Is Transporting Students to the Next Frontier in Science Education. You can learn more about Steve’s company at VictoryXR.com. Steve, welcome to the show. Steve: Alan, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. We’ve been working in XR Technologies — first virtual reality, and then augmented reality — since 2016. I first tried to headset on near the end of 2015 and it struck me that this type of technology would change the world. And so, we struck out and decided that our field would be education. And so we dug in and figured out how to do it, because at that point it was very difficult to find people; you couldn’t just hire people off the street who knew how to create virtual reality technology. We set to work figuring it out. In September of 2016, I attended a group meeting with some folks in Dallas, and then by January of 2017, we had our first major product in a school. I felt pretty good that we were able to move quickly on that first experience. Alan: That’s incredible. Let me ask you a quick question. What was the first experience that you tried that inspired you to start VictoryVR? Steve: Well, it was a MetaVRse product that I downloaded to my phone some time, in Google Cardboard. I am pretty sure I went to the iPhone store and tried a roller coaster — and this had been a few years now. And then I tried The New York Times 360 News reporting on my phone and they both were great, amazing, cool, and so I said, this is something I want to be a part of. Alan: For those people that don’t know you and VictoryVR, maybe just give us a 10,000-foot view of your mission and why you’re doing what you’re doing, and where you see the company going. Describe your company, the products, and the platform that’s being used. Steve: We believe that we can change education in a positive way around the world. If you think about it, for decades — I used to serve in the Iowa legislature, and I was chairman of the Education Committee, and we spent a lot of time addressing, how do we improve education? And there were a lot of things we did on the input side, but at the end of the day, what we all know is that if students love to learn, they love what they’re learning — like all of us — then there’s no work in it; you just love to do it, and you immerse yourself in it. We believe that XR Technologies — VR and AR — are the solution to having students love what they’re learning. So we’re creating as much content as possible, aligned to standards, so that teachers can integrate it into their lesson plans, or parents can just simply pull it off the shelf and use it. I have a background in technology. I started my first tech company in 1997, building web sites. I bought a book called “Web Sites for Dummies,” read i

A marketing campaign is nothing more than orchestrated noise around your product.    Here's an example of how to keep a campaign going when everything is going well…   A campaign is about creating orchestrated noise   … that's my definition, but really that's all a campaign is.    Running Facebook ads,  that's NOT really a campaign. It can be part of a campaign, but it’s NOT a campaign on its own…   Marketing campaigns are a dying art… which means MOST people are leaving money on the table.   Think about this...   We're no longer just in the information age, we're in the attention age where the loudest, not the best, is more likely to get paid.   HOW TO TURBOCHARGE YOUR MARKETING CAMPAIGN   Recently, one of my good friends, Josh Forti, did a cool launch, and he had me come on to promo this product.    After our interview was done for the launch, he asked if he could get on my Facebook page to chit chat about the interview and do a little MORE promo around it.    I swear one of the major reasons that people don’t do very well in this game is simply because they don't know how to do the second step that Josh took…   ...which is why I thought it'd be cool to share the interview with you…   I chopped it in different places and such, but you’ll see Josh ask some very general questions…   Then kind of after each of my answers, he'd go back to, "Hey, we covered that in the playbook, click here."    That skill is a very learnable thing, and it’s one of the easiest ways to get better results in your marketing campaigns…   Because, here’s the thing…   I see people with a...   Great Product   Excellent Funnel   Good Launch   ... but then they don't follow through all the way, and it cuts their launches down.    Campaigns are broken up into a lot of parts. I plan and put all the pieces together, and then, I ask...    How am I gonna get tension?    How am I gonna leverage the followings of other people to get attention?    Once it's in the middle of a launch, how do I keep the momentum going?    Once it's done, how do I keep that pressure moving as well?    And, so I thought this interview with Josh was a great example of how to keep the pressure moving...    So, when you launch your product, or whenever you're putting your stuff out; *REMEMBER*  it's NOT just about the product or the funnel…   It's about the noise.    So you need to ask, “How am I creating that noise?”    The success of your product is just as dependent on the noise you orchestrate as the product and the offer and the sales message itself.   If no one knows about your offer, you're NOT making any money anyway.    If you can't get anyone to even go look at your sales message, your product is already dead... so why did you make it?     So I'm just giving this to you as an idea, so you can see like, "Oh, man, I should go do that."    A follow-up interview whenever you interview somebody for a product you're putting out is NOT abnormal at all.  Let’s cut over right now…   JOSH FORTI’S MASTER MOVE   Steve: On the other side of this wall here, there’s a whiteboard and I call it my "questions whiteboard."    I believe that questions invite revelation, and that's good and bad...    So…    I have to focus on answering rich people questions instead of poor people questions.    Because whatever I ask, I will likely answer.    The purpose of the board is NOT for me to answer the questions.    The purpose of the board is me to figure out which question to focus on answering.    ...because I shouldn't try and answer EVERYTHING.    It's funny you asked that;  I don't know why, but it happens in the morning….    I'm getting ready in the morning and my brain turns on, and  I'm like, "Whoa, what about this idea?”   Man, I'm not going to lie, I've run out in a towel before to write stuff down... like, “That's such a sick idea!  Oh my gosh! I should try to answer that…”   And I put it on my questions board... and I write, and write, and write…   I have a BIG list of unanswered questions that I want to pursue.    It's NOT that I'll sit down always and be like, "I have to answer this now," and just dive into my books…    But, on interviews, because it's on my mind, I'll continue to clarify the answer to that question…    I'll be like, "I think it's this."    One of my favorite things is to go back and listen to those interviews and hear myself, and be like, "...that was probably the coolest I've ever explained an answer to the question on my whiteboard.”    And so I go back a lot, and it's one of the coolest ways I figure out like, “Okay, that made sense, that didn't make sense. This was helpful, that was confusing.”    And it's only honed me in what I do more and more.   FINDING WHAT RESONATED?   Josh: It's interesting how much you can learn about certain things that you say when there are clips of the crowd, (and they get the back angle)...   ... and you watch everybody's heads go down and start writing all at once.    And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they all really liked that point."    And so it's ALWAYS interesting for me to kinda go back and listen to old interviews, speeches, or things that I've done... that got A LOT of really good engagement...   ‘Cuz I feel like you can learn so much about what people really like, what resonated and what didn't resonate.    Steve: Well, it's funny 'cuz the market literally votes, (they don't know they're doing that a lot of times), and it's NOT just with products, but even with content, (you know that)…   It's cool to see that reaction when you say something and you know it's right, you know it's helpful…   ... but you said it differently that time, and suddenly it’s the click… and you're like, "Oh, that's what you mean!"    And then you see all the heads go down, and you're like, “Okay, note to self, say it that way next time because it's more impactful than last time.”   ARE YOU ASKING POOR PERSON’S QUESTIONS?   Josh: I believe that the key to thinking different…    The key to getting, basically, anything that you want out of life is asking the right questions.   If you know how to ask good questions, you can ultimately go out and find answers, have a good perspective, and get what you want out of life.    But how did *you* learn, like...    How does one go and actually learn good questions?   How do you determine what questions you're actually gonna ask, and what's worthwhile to go study or not?   Steve:    One of the biggest filters I run things through is, does that sound like a rich person question or a broke person question?   Josh: Hmm.   Steve:    A lot of times, people try to answer broke people questions just out of habit.    For example:   I don't clip coupons. I'm not against coupon-clipping. Well, actually I am… ;-)   One of the issues is…    If I spend my time and my attention and my focus on how to save money, I will find out how to do it…    ...but I also didn't learn how to make MORE money!   I'd rather learn how to make more money and who cares how much something costs at that point?     The one thing everybody has when they start this game is a buttload of questions.  … and it makes sense why they would. Just EVERYONE has tons and tons of questions.   Josh: Right.   Steve: That's natural… but, like start writing them down. I challenge everybody to do that…    And…   Before you seek to answer the question, seek if it's worth answering at all.   Josh: Yeah. That's huge.   Steve: It will pay you in time or money.   Josh: I love that.    One of the things you said is interesting because we mention it in The Mindshift Playbook, is the habit thing…   You said, ‘Often times we just do it out of habit,’ right?   Steve: You know what's funny, I'll go teach these models, “Hey, this is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model…”   And what's funny is, the very first reaction people have is, “Is that gonna work for me? Am I in the right spot to do this?”    And I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, are you kidding?”     ... it ticks me off so bad. Josh: It’s like, “Does ClickFunnels work for -----?”   Steve: You know what? Of the hundred thousand monthly subscribers, you're right, you're the one it's NOT gonna work for.  It's like, “Come on! Just do it."    People set a goal, "I'm going to go do this, and I'm going to use ClickFunnels to do whatever,” and they don't allow *themselves* to break on the goal.    That's the key…   You have to break *you* on the goal instead of change the goal.    Robert Kiyosaki says that as well…    As you start moving towards any goal, you’ll have these character flaws that explode in your face.    I was probably, you could say…    Addicted to video games in high school.    I was very overweight.    I got kicked out of college.    I barely graduated high school.    I couldn't speak.    I had major anxiety issues.    I am literally the opposite of everything that I was back then because I started realizing that,    I needed to allow myself to feel some pain on the way to the goal. Pain does not mean bad, and pain does NOT mean the wrong choice. Most of the time, pain means growth.   Josh: Yeah.   FAIL FAST   Steve: When you realize, “Oh my gosh, failure is really kind of a made-up principle. It's not even a principle, it's made up...    As I start to feel that pain, I start to feel the progression of moving towards things.   I went back and counted how many times it actually took me to make one of these funnel things work, and it was actually 17 funnel tries and 17 before that…   It was actually my 34th thing that actually blew up (from age 20 until now).   Josh: That's crazy.   Steve: That's A LOT of freaking failures.    ...and most of the time, people aren't going to be able to go through that.     About 1/3 into those tries, I became cognizant that…    I was changing at a speed faster than any personal development course could ever hope to give me. Josh: Ever! And you mentioned that in the interview too. You say like,    Entrepreneurship is the best personal development course you NEVER signed up for.   I mean, like it just is, and I 100% agree with that.    ...and it's interesting what you say about pain and struggle.    I think the one thing that we both agree upon is that the struggle is there for a reason. The struggle is a good thing.    The struggle is absolutely needed to develop you into who it is that you say. So it's interesting that like, they're saying it, you're saying it. Like, it's there…   I think in today's society, we're just trained to want to avoid struggle.    Everything is convenient.    Everything is now.    Everything is easy.    Like, “Avoid this!” (Thank you, marketers, right?), but like, you know what I mean?    I feel like we're trained as a society to avoid struggle, which I think is why it's so hard for so many people.    Steve: Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of it, (and I'm never gonna be the one that just like slams and bad mouths school and all that stuff)...   ... but you think about it, you get punished for doing something wrong in school.    But like, man…    I do stuff wrong, all the time, in business, and that's actually the thing that accelerates me.   Josh: Right   Steve: “You can't do that here, or you can't do that here.”    Or…    “What if I fail?”  *Plan on it* And then you just move forward.   Josh: Write it in.   Steve:    I find that failing ends up being an accelerant to everything else that you do   I've gone through that many failures, and because it sucked for so long, it's NOT that hard to make cash now.    I'm like, “Okay, well, I solved that problem.”   And what I've learned is that while I teach these models, and then people feel this first sense of personal development requirement that comes like…    “Oh, man, I don't actually qualify to be running my dream in the first place.”    ...as they start moving, they start to gain this self-confidence. And then, they move faster and faster and faster…   I almost want them to hit some major speed bump quickly and then see if they can pick themselves back up.    That kind of person, I love working with them.   Josh: Yeah, because people don't know how to fail. Sorry. Go ahead. DO YOU QUALIFY?   Steve: I was chatting with Russell about this a little while ago…   I was like, "Dude, when I met you and started working for you in the same room, you were totally a different person a year and a half later by the time I left."    The Russell Brunson of 3 or 4 years ago, could NOT handle what he's doing right now.    But too many times we're like, “I want my dream with the million-dollar business now.”    Man, *You don't qualify* You've gotta get some personal development going down!   Josh: What would your advice to me be, if I were to go down that route and be like,    "Yeah, I'm gonna open up a talk show where we bring on interesting guests. Maybe we talk politics. Maybe we talk about business. Maybe we talk, whatever.”    What's your advice to me when it comes to doing those interviews or creating concepts around that?   Steve: Okay, so I'll tell you one of the reasons why Sales Funnel Radio has been so successful and “The Capitalist Pig” is such a big deal to people…  It's because it actively throws rocks around mainstream ideas that others believe.    So, I was in the Army, (and y'all know that if you’re on here, right?)    I was in the Army, I enlisted and I went to become an ammunition specialist, (which I didn't know at the time meant "fancy warehouse guy." )   I was like, “Crap, I wish I would have chosen something a little different."    Anyway, a little bit through that, I was like, "I'm going to go be an officer."    So, in the middle of my officer trainer, one of the things that they do is they make you study wars, battles, lots of strategy and movements... things like that.    So you study these HUGE battles, and it's a ton of fun. I really enjoyed it.    The guy who was teaching us was ridiculously smart. He's a historian that they brought in just for officer training.   It was a whole semester of just studying wars.    What's interesting is that he taught us that wars are started over usually pretty much always out of rights...   States' right   Human rights   ... that's what wars start over.  The Civil War was NOT started because of slavery. We did NOT leave Europe because of religious oppression, but that's how we romanticize the past…   What's funny is that in the middle of a war, a lot of times, a social issue will piggyback on the war.    So slavery becomes part of the Civil War, (like right towards the last hour)...    And that's when Lincoln said, "Hey, The Emancipation Proclamation, let's go dump it in there."    The same thing with like leaving Europe, as Americans, we're gonna go in and you know what… ‘it's about religious freedom now.”    It was NOT at first. We were Britains!    And the reason I bring this up is that from a marketing standpoint, when it comes to the way I treat a message, (this is not something I normally would talk about either), but …    I look to piggyback a message on the back of a social issue.    (Not a human rights issue... because then you're seen as political)    But when it comes to really disruptive messages in the marketplace, Socialism right now is getting a lot of attention…    So one of the easiest ways for me to get a lot of attention on a show is to become the anti-something major in a social issue that's currently got momentum.    It takes a lifetime to create momentum, but I don't have to do that if I piggyback on a social issue that I'm passionate about in the opposite way.   Josh: That's super good advice.   Steve: Yeah, I would figure out what big things to talk about. I find that themed shows always do better than a general, let's just...   Josh: Let's just talk.   Steve: Yeah.    So I would find something that you find and throw rocks at it like that, and then it's very natural to find those people who are for or against to hear both sides.   You'll get as many people who listen to you and love you, as hate your guts.   Josh: Yeah, well, I think this entrepreneurship like micro-influencer game has prepared me for the hate. Holy cow, dude!   Steve: Yeah, it only gets louder.   Josh: Aww, man, I tell you what! But I've learned to tune it out.   Steve: Well, thanks for listening and thanks for jumping on here.   Josh: Absolutely, man. Thanks so much.   WHOA!    If you're just starting out you're probably studying a lot. That's good. You're probably geeking out on all the strategies, right? That's also good.   But the hardest part is figuring out what the market wants to buy and how you should sell it to them, right?    That's what I struggled with for a while until I learned the formula.    So I created a special Mastermind called an OfferMind to get you on track with the right offer, and more importantly the right sales script to get it off the ground and sell it.    Wanna come?    There are small groups on purpose, so I can answer your direct questions in person for two straight days.  You can hold your spot by going to OfferMind.com.    Again, that's OfferMind.com.  

It’s no secret that a lot of strategies in MLM are broken and outdated...   The MLM model has undoubtedly changed over time…     In fact, I just spoke about this in an interview I did with Lynn Thomas from Create Your Dream Life…   The Internet became publicly available in 1991…   Over 10 years ago!    A lot of the tactics in MLM were developed BEFORE the Internet…    And a lot of MLM companies are moving forward as if that's not a reality...    Which I frankly think is STUPID.    I chat with Lynn about my approach to MLM and WHY it's so different and so unique...    And why this has been such a BIG BUZZ…   It's been such a disruptive thing!   Jump in a discussion I had with Lynn Thomas about how MLM has changed and what to do about it to stay on top…   *how MLM has changed, how to stay on top, Secret MLM Hacks, MLM is broken*   Jump in a discussion I had with Lynn Thomas about how MLM has changed and what to do about it to stay on top…   HOW MLM HAS CHANGED     The MLM model has undoubtedly changed over time.    I talked about this in an interview I did with Lynn Thomas from Create Your Dream Life.   Lynn Thomas is awesome.    If you don't know, interviewsteve.com is how you can jump on my calendar. It's pretty full. I'll try and figure out a way to open it up a little bit.    Lynn asked me some cool questions that I haven't really been asked that frequently.   In the episode, we were able to dive a little more deeply into how MLM has changed and shifted in the last 10 years.    The Internet became publicly available in 1991.    A lot of what is being done now in the MLM space are tactics that were developed before the Internet was around or publicly available.    A lot of MLM companies tend to move forward as if that's not a reality... Which I frankly think is STUPID.    I chat with Lynn about my approach to MLM and why it's so different and so unique... And why this has been such a big buzz.    Whole MLMs have been reaching out, asking us to build funnels for them!   I've been able to take the MLM model and flip it on its head. Rather than me going out and talking to all these people to deliver a message, I can automate the message!    I can track it because it's the same message every time.    That means I can make tweaks and adjustments and target people who are likely to want to:    Be in my downline Buy whatever my team is selling    That's a big, big deal, and that's why it's been such a disruptive thing.   HOW TO STAY ON TOP IN MLM   We have a book that we're writing about this. There are three levers you can go turn in your MLM business.    You don't own anything in MLM.   You don't own anything. What is it that you can create that you do own? So you can out leverage the game?    This is super blue ocean stuff right now, which is exciting.    Lynn: Steve, how did you get started? Where did you start in this journey? And why did you start Secret MLM Hacks?   Steve: Why did I start Secret MLM Hacks? Well the first time I tried to get in MLM, I was bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was in college. We had hardly any money and had just found out that we were expecting our first kid, which is very exciting.   I wanted to make a little bit of extra cash in college to pay some of those expenses. One of my buddies called me and said, "Hey, I don't know what this guy's talking about but he's going to help us make a lot of money. Can I three way him in?"   I was totally new and I had no idea what that meant or that I was on a classic MLM pitch.    So I said, "Sure, dude. Sounds good." He calls and I literally said, “Is this one of those pyramid schemes?”   I was the worst buyer ever.   He goes, "No, no, no, it's not, No, no, no."    And I was like, "Why do I need to pay money to get started selling things for you? That doesn't make any sense."    I was the worst. When I got off the phone my buddy called me right back and he goes, "Come on, you would be great at this. Come on, man."    And I was like, "No."   REALIZING HOW MLM HAS CHANGED   After some resistance I said, “Sure. Well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to go both feet in and I'm going to run as hard as I can.”    So I went and I met with a guy in my upline. I don't even know what it was called… I was so green to the MLM network marketing, direct sales space. I didn't know anything about that.   And I went and drove to go meet him. When I pulled up it was this like, super old, warehouse looking thing. It was kind of sketchy.    I walked in and there was this table in the center, and nothing else was in this big massive room. It's like the out of a scene from Hollywood.    It was dark with a single light hanging over the table. I sat down, and he goes, "Well, hey, you want to be successful? Right?"   I said, "Well, yeah."   And he goes, "Well, you gotta do what everyone else does when they're successful. Let's take out your phone. Are you willing to do that?"    I said, "Sure".   “Take your phone out. Let's walk through your contacts and see who would be good.”    And I was like, that makes sense. We made a huge list of people. Right there, we started calling people. I was not prepared for that.    If that's your thing, good on you. But for me that was weird.   I still have relationships that have been soured to this day because of that.    MLM IS BROKEN BUT I KEPT GOING   But I was not willing to give up. I went and started walking down Main Street, literally recruiting people right off the street. People in businesses, and I was just hustling.    I’d worked super hard for the first four or five weeks and I recruited 13 people.    And I was like, "This is awesome." I started doing the thing that they all do…    … “If those 13 get 13 and if they get 13 each, the next problem I have to solve as what island will I buy!”   Then none of them did anything.   I'd counting the chips before I have them and none of them did anything… So I stopped doing anything in MLM.    About a year later I realized that the problem wasn't, does MLM work?    The problem was that I was approaching it with very outdated tactics.   There are people out there who legitimately wanted to find a good opportunity.   I started learning how to attract the good people.    In the past I was looking across the street and being like, "Oh, it's Mr. Johnson. He really could use this opportunity right now, he needs this opportunity."   I realized anytime I have to say that about somebody, they are the wrong person to recruit. They're not learners or business builders.    I started getting better and better at that whole system and automating it on the internet, using ClickFunnels.    To this day, still, we get about two, three, sometimes four people a day asking to draw my down-line who I've never met.   We cut half of them out easily right off the get go and find those who are truly excited to build it.    That's what we've been doing and Secret of MLM Hacks is just the program that teaches that.   HOW MLM HAS CHANGED THE OFFER   Lynn: Yeah, it's an awesome thing that you've built. The thing that I'm struggling with and that the people that I've interviewed are struggling with is THE OFFER.   Can you explain a little bit about offer creation?   Steve: The way I realized this was kind of backwards and weird.    I was knocking doors as a door to door salesman. We were driving out to one of our areas, and I was in a bad mood. I was having the grumpies, sorry.   I remember looking up at these billboards, and I had this phrase come to my head.    And I was like, man, I'm getting up every day trying to sell things to people who are not planning on spending money.   But everybody calling these billboards are calling asking to be sold.    It was the first time in my life I've ever considered that.   There was already this momentum going around sales, and I needed to learn how to capture it.    I was selling pest control at the time and I put up these ads on classified sites for pest control.    I didn't realize that was totally illegal because you’re supposed to put all these credentials and stuff up.    My phone started blowing up! People are like, “I've got ants in my pants” or whatever. There's people begging for the service rather than me selling them on the service.   I couldn't knock any more doors because there's a better way. So I started approaching MLM differently.   HOW TO STAY ON TOP WITH YOUR OFFER   When it comes to offers, people want what you've got.   You have to realize that anytime we sell a product, it is solving a problem. It's easier to sell it if they really do have a problem. You don't have to create the problem then sell them the solution.    Let's say I'm selling Trident gum. Anytime we sell a product, we solve a problem but we also create problems that were not there before we bought.    This is where the offer, in any business not just MLM, comes around.   I call these follow up problems.    If the opportunity presents itself to be an Olympic skier... Someone offered it to me and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I could be in the Olympics!"    I’ve got to solve a lot of problems that were never there before.    What skis will I wear? Who's my coach going to be now? What's my eating like? Who am I going to hang out with? What's my sleep schedule? What mountains am I going to train on?   All the things that were never there until that opportunity presented itself.    That is the exact same thing and where the opportunity lies in MLM when you realize that.   As soon as I sell my gum to somebody, or whatever your product is, what are the follow up problems and issues that are there now that they bought from you?    These are called follow up problems.    Maybe I don't like the flavor. Maybe there's certain things that you eat or drink with or after it.   Lynn: Or maybe there's an aftertaste...   Steve: Yeah, maybe there's an aftertaste. Maybe your mouth might get a little dry.    MLM IS BROKEN BECAUSE IT DOESN’T DEAL WITH FOLLOW UP PROBLEMS   If you don't know what the follow up problems are, go to anybody who's ever bought your product ever and say, "Hey, what do you wish was a little bit different with this product?"   Shut up and take out a piece of paper.    This is when the market starts guiding the offer that they want from you.    This is very key and it's one of the major reasons why I love MLM so much.   You don't have to make this initial product to get those questions out, it's already made for you.    I go out and I share it with people and I say, "Hey, here's this thing. What are the issues you have?"    And I start writing and writing and writing and writing. Then I look for the top two or three most commonly said things.   The magic is here.    I create a product to solve that follow up problem that the majority seem to be having…   And I give it away for FREE with this product when they buy it through me.    Now I've out valued everybody my upline... Everyone in my downline and I am the most attractive person to come buy through.   My upline is my competition. My down-line is my competition.    WHAT IS SECRET MLM HACKS FOR?   Lynn: So is Secret MLM Hacks a thing that is attracting people to you? And then eventually, they ask to join you?   Steve: Sometimes...   Lynn: Not all the time?   Steve: Well, I don't ever tell anyone what I'm in. I kept it very third party.    Secret MLM Hacks  is meant to educate the MLM space because no one has really been approaching MLM this way.    If I can become the category king in this space with MLM funnels, it can't be a pitch fest.    Lynn: You're breaking the old paradigm.   Steve: Some MLM’s really don't like it.   Lynn: I imagine, because you were saying that MLM is broken.   Steve: Yeah, I believe that.   Lynn: And it's been broken for a long time. We have the internet and new ways of reaching out to people yet they're still saying, “Let's call 100 more contacts from your phone.”    Steve: Why don’t we talk to those who are actually wanting to buy. People who want the solution.   Let's just give a lot of value and then they'll come buy from us instead of everyone else.   Lynn: So there are a lot of people out there that are looking for and wanting an opportunity, and you're just opening the door so that they can find you?   Steve: Yeah.   If you compare brand new people who sell on the internet in general and brand new people who sell in the MLM space, there's far more education that is much better suited to the general internet marketer.   EDUCATION IN MLM IS BROKEN   I started looking at what education is available in the MLM space and the quality of it.    So I went in and I started buying all of the top books, courses and CD’s in the MLM industry.   I started consuming them, and almost all of them have the same ideas...   “Simple things to say to people to get them to jump into your down-line”.   Why don’t we just skip all of that and talk to those who actually want the product and automate the interaction with them.    Then let's elevate the quality of education so people can have a lot of stature in the MLM space.   Go buy all the top books, go see what they're talking about. It's kind of garbage.    It's really, really old when you compare it to what is actually already working in other industries.    All I've been doing is taking this education and telling it to a new industry that's never heard it before.   Lynn: Can you explain to me why you killed yourself?   Steve: So what Lynn's referring to is, I say Steve killed Stephen.   In high school, I…   Was 35% body fat (I was a big boy) Had a huge amount of shyness Had a very rough time speaking with anybody    I'd see an adult and literally walk the other way.    It was a near clinical fear of adults for a while there.    HOW MLM HAS CHANGED SINCE I WAS IN COLLEGE   I'm just going to say it... I was dumb.   I got kicked out of college my first semester because I got pretty much straight F's and they told me to leave.    I had to wait four years to go back and reapply. I'm the least likely success story.   Stephen is a great guy. His natural state is ‘nice guy’.   It was no longer, "Hey, I'm not making any money because the opportunity I'm in is bad."   What I realized is, "Hey, I'm not making any money because I'm a terrible delivery system of it.”   I don't qualify for what the market is requiring for me to go out and be the person that sells and is aggressive to the right degree.    So I created Steve.   I just did this at Funnel Hacking Live. Something freaked me out and I started getting nervous in the negative sense (not the positive nervous).   I went to the speaker room, shut off all the lights and put on some pretty aggressive motivational videos.    There was 30 minutes till I had to get on stage.   I just did planks, sit ups and push ups because I was trying to bring Steve out.    That sounds schizophrenic... I promise it isn't.   Steve's a killer. Steve gets on stage and he cracks mics and break stages. He is the attractive character that his market needs him to be.    SECRET MLM HACKS STEVE VS STEPHEN   Lynn: You’re not dead all the time?   Steve: I'm not, no. It is a learned trait.    I was so scared for launching my podcast for the first time. I think I recorded 17 episodes before ever releasing it, because I was nervous.    Every single step of the way has been a self doctoring move.   Everyone asks, "How do you keep so much energy?" I don't.   No one's that way all the time. Everyone gets nervous.   Steve killed Stephen and it doesn't feel fake… It's very genuine. It's just a new side of me that I started learning.   Lynn: You talk about getting uncomfortable every day.    Be uncomfortable every day, step out of your zone. Learn something new, do something you haven't done before.   Steve: Yeah. Not all stress is negative.    There's de-stress, which is destructive. That's not good stress.    Then there's eu-stress, as in euphoria. Eustress is really good for you. It's like going to the gym and it’s good for your brain.    Doing something hard as early in the day as you possibly can is so good for you.   Lynn: Are you doing triathlons? I seem to recall that you're doing something like that?   Steve: I'm about to get back into it. It's been a solid year since I've really done anything like that.    I started signing up for some stuff so that I could hold my feet to the fire and get into it again.   Lynn: Is it kind of a balance thing?   Steve: Yeah, a little bit.    I think life balance is kind a facade.    It's hard to define it so you don't really know if you've reached it.    I feel like it's a weird thing to compare ourselves to something that's kind of unattainable.   HOW MLM HAS CHANGED WITH THE INTERNET   Lynn: Do you any parting words of wisdom for my listeners?   Steve: The MLM space is most easily sold when you couple it with the info product industry.    What I do is I create these products that teach ANY MLMer. I'm not pitching them at all. But they're not free.   And that's for a reason. It filters and brings people to me who have a different mentality.    If somebody can't even spend a little bit of money for some MLM education, they're not a good fit for my down-line.    I'm not trying to recruit everyone and their mom.    That's totally the opposite of what most MLMs teach. I'm actually very picky on who I let in my down lines.    If you are having a hard time recruiting, one of the easiest things you can do is create something in the front and stop recruiting everybody.    I don't get on the phone, I don't go to hotels or malls, I don't do any of this traditional MLM stuff.   Lynn: You don't do meetings?   Steve: I don't do any of that. None of it.   The only thing that I do is keep selling this front end program. It's not really meant to make money.    Any money we make, we just dump it back in ads. The people who are buying it are basically funding the ads.    Most MLM don't know how to drive ads. That program is louder than most MLM companies, which is crazy.    If they can spend $15 on ads, and I can spend $50, I'm going to crush them.   That front end thing is just meant to liquidate my ad cost and bring good people to me, who would be a great fit for my team.   RECRUITING IN MLM IS BROKEN   I NEVER approach someone. I make people apply. They go through an application process and we filter out another half of them easily.   Lynn: All the people that you're recruiting are people that are ready to run, and they're all using the internet to grow.   Steve: Yes. That's what's crazy.    I just hand off the same systems when they join my team. That's what's so mind blowing, because a funnel builder is what my profession is. I make good ones. When they come in, they get these professional funnels.    Lynn: BOOM!   Steve: Yeah, BOOM!   When you flip the whole model on its head and stop doing, frankly, really old tactics, MLM becomes fun again.    The people on my down-line are my closers. They're the ones who call the people who apply. I don't even do that.    Then we automated our onboarding process, which is actually about launch in a week or two.   We automated all the onboarding which walks them through how to:   Set up their back office Get ads Set up the funnels Take advantage of our teams bonuses   It takes them through their first 30 days in my downline. It's super turnkey.   ONBOARDING IN MLM IS BROKEN   Lynn: Wow, that's awesome. Steve also has an affiliate program for ClickFunnels.   Steve: If you're watching or listening to this and you want to learn how to do this stuff on the internet, one of the easiest places to learn these principles is in affiliate marketing.    The model for affiliate marketing is the exact same model for MLM on the internet. If you go to affiliateoutrage.com, that's the program.   Affiliateoutrage.com walks you through how to market.   Lynn: He's got unbelievable training in there… UNBELIEVABLE.    Part of today's challenge in MLM is knowing how to teach your downline all of the ‘stuff’, right?    Would you like me to help you teach your own downline five simple recruiting tips for free?    If so, go download the FREE MLM Masters Package by subscribing to my podcast at SecretMLMHacksRadio.com   The course is FREE and it'll help explain to your team what I'm doing on, what you're learning. It also gets sent straight to your inbox.    Just go download it at SecretMLMHacksRadio.com

Most of us have experienced roadblocks along a career path. For a university professor, NOT getting tenure is a major roadblock. It means that the place where you've invested your time and reputation for years now expects you to leave. Just like that. There go your job security and income! So what happens next?Photographer, educator, and activist Steve Cagan learned this lesson the hard way. Hear how he used this unexpected setback to delve deeper into activism, and eventually to pursue a long-term relationship and build a powerful portfolio of work to assist the people of El Choco, Colombia. For more information, please check out these links:Steve Cagan and his workGold Mining in El Choco--the images of Steve Cagan and Mary KelseySteve Cagan discusses "activist photography" in a previous interview**************************************************TRANSCRIPT FOR THIS EPISODEPassing Through Life podcast copyright 2018Luanne Bole-Becker Episode 4: Tenure Isn't EverythingSteve Cagan interview recorded 7.31.18, podcast published 2.20.19Introducing our guest—Steve Cagan, activist photographer (00:00:15)Lu: Today's episode is "Tenure Isn't Everything," episode number four, an interview with Steve Cagan, an award-winning activist photographer. He's won very prestigious awards, including a Fulbright fellowship. So welcome Steve. Thanks for joining usSteve: Two Fulbrights!Lu: Ooooh. Two. Whoa ho ho! Okay. But a bit of background. Well, I first saw Steve's photography 30 years ago, which is impossible because we are youngsters! But it was in an exhibit highlighting factory closings around Cleveland or around the region. We didn't actually meet until 2010 when we collaborated on a project to document the lives of refugee families that were resettling here in northeast Ohio. And I have to say I was a little intimidated because Steve has this long history of exhibits and awards and I was interested in creating a photo exhibit, but I had absolutely no experience as a curator, a gallery owner, a serious photographer, any of those things. But I just knew I wanted refugees’ lives captured in a compelling and visual way. So several people actually referred me to you, Steve, and you're kind of like a perfect fit because you've pretty much dedicated your life to using photography, but using it to advance and support social causes. So that leads me to my first question. You call yourself an activist photographer. What the heck is that?Steve: Well, that's a very good question. It's something that I've been actually developing both as a practice and as a kind of critical understanding. What's at the heart of that notion is that my photography is done in collaboration with organizations or communities that are in struggle for justice-- perhaps around ve

Support the podcast! One of the best parts about tapping is how easily it can be combined with other tools and modality. Recently, Steve Well has been working use the power of intention combined with tapping to get deeper healing and longer lasting results. In the case the idea of intention is about the outcome we want (for example "my intention is to be confident speaking in public") but instead holding specific intentions about the healing process. He calls his new approach Intention-based Energy Process (IEP) or Intention Tapping for short. In the conversation Steve shares how he came to use intention in this way as well as teaching you the entire process. Note: For the first time since 2013 Steve is running live training in North America. There is a 3 hour workshop on April 4th and three day advanced training April 5th - 7th in Toronto. Here are details Subscribe in: Apple | Android | Spotify

Steve Shields was raised in the LDS Church and attended BYU.  So why is he now a member of the Community of Christ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq4ul9ymB4 Steve:  I was really interested in church history and I started reading these books and pamphlets that were not approved by the general authorities and my mother warned me that if I kept reading that kind of stuff, I would lose my testimony and leave the church. She wasn't happy that she was right. I don't see it as losing my testimony. Did I leave one organization for another? Yes, but I think my faith in Christ is stronger than it has ever been. I'm not saying that I didn't have faith before. By going this different route, I began to focus more on what I think matters most. Steve:  And history then, didn't become the main focus of my faith, but became a main interest. That sort of--Oh, do I dare use the word tangent? Tangential to my faith. GT:  We like that word. Steve:  Yeah. It was a big deal to make that move. By the time I had been on my mission and, and done that, I had some pretty out of the box ideas about God. Steve discusses his reasons for changing his religion, and we discuss the RLDS/Community of Christ hierarchy.  What are the similarities and differences with the LDS Church? GT:  I know John Hamer was recently called to be a Seventy. Steve: He's a Seventy, right. ... GT: He would be more like an Area Authority? Steve:  He's like an area authority. Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Our Seventies are more like Area Authorities. Now, there may be some official expenses that they're provided for travel and things like that. And I don't know. Every jurisdiction, every mission center of the church and mission centers for us are like areas for the LDS organization. GT:  I've heard that they've been compared to a stake. Steve:  Well, but stakes are different from LDS, have always been different from LDS stakes. It's not been uncommon for us to have 30 or 40 congregations in a stake. Steve:  And the stake presidents were full-time world church appointees. So, stake looks and feels like it might be the same in both, but it really wasn't because of the size. So, I really think the mission centers replaced stakes, as we tried to reduce the number of levels, so we used to have the general officers and then the fields. Each apostle had a certain geographical area. Then we had stakes and regions and districts. And so, we tried to compress all of those stakes and regions and districts are now all mission centers and we reconfigured that. Check out our conversation… You may also want to check out our previous conversations with John Hamer and Community of Christ apostle Lach MacKay! 120:  Start of RLDS Church & Mormon Schisms Tour (MacKay & Hamer) 119:  Surprising Word of Wisdom Insights from an Apostle (MacKay & Hamer) 118:  Mormon Followers of the Prophet James Strang (MacKay & Hamer) 117: Alice Cooper's Roots in Lively Mormon Schisms (MacKay & Hamer) 116: Different Succession Claims:  Other Mormon Groups (MacKay & Hamer) 115:  Strange Kirtland Temple Ownership Problems (MacKay & Hamer) 114:  Comparing LDS & RLDS Temple Worship (MacKay & Hamer) 113: A Seventy & Apostle discuss myths & Kirtland Temple (MacKay & Hamer)

In this episode...   I interview expert guest Steve Wells about his Intention-based energy Process (IEP) technique. We discuss this simple and powerful method that you can use to simply and quickly process your negative emotions and end your suffering. Learn how you can tap into the root of the problem without a precise target by allowing your subconscious to reveal it to you. Get clear and grounded so you can be fully present in the moment and as yourself. Here is more of what we discuss: -The Intention-Based Energy Process (IEP) technique -IEP versus Affirmations -Trying out the Core Intention Statements -The technique in action (live demonstration) -What you can try now...   Steve's bio: Steve Wells is a psychologist. He has trained to the highest level in provocative therapy, has extensive training and experience in brief strategic therapy, and has been training counsellors and therapists for over 20 years. Together with Dr David Lake he also conducts personal development seminars and professional training workshops in Advanced EFT and Provocative Energy Techniques. He and Dr Lake developed Simple Energy Techniques (SET) and the unique advanced Energy-based approach Provocative Energy Techniques (PET).   Resources Mentioned: http://www.eftdownunder.com/ Steve Well's book "100% YES! The Energy of Success: Release Your Resistance Align Your Values Go for Your Goals Using Simple Energy Techniques (SET)"   Quoting Steve: "The Intention-Based Energy Process is a way of using your own intention to release the emotional attachments that are causing your suffering. To change the way you feel. To take the emotional sting out of your problems. And restore the body to a flow state which puts you into a place of being clear and grounded and calm. And also it helps you to access your resources so you can go forward with your confidence hat. For self-help, it's very simple and surprisingly powerful."   Steve's website: http://www.eftdownunder.com   Steve's show notes page   Contact me directly: www.social-anxiety-solutions.com/contact/ Warm regards, Sebastiaan van der Schrier

The Amazon Marketplace is a great place for any entrepreneurs to start their E-commerce business. Today’s guest is Regina Peterburgsky, Online Entrepreneur, FBA Seller, Mentor and Coach. Regina spends most of her time building Amazon brands and helping others do the same. Here are some key points on today’s episode: How Regina started in the E-commerce space. The ups and downs she encountered in business. Her book Thirteen Amazing Secrets of Amazon Entrepreneurs. And her upcoming website AmazingSecrets.com. So listen to today’s episode and learn more about building a successful Amazon brand and E-commerce business. Welcome to the Awesomers.com podcast. If you love to learn and if you're motivated to expand your mind and heck if you desire to break through those traditional paradigms and find your own version of success, you are in the right place. Awesomers around the world are on a journey to improve their lives and the lives of those around them. We believe in paying it forward and we fundamentally try to live up to the great Zig Ziglar quote where he said, "You can have everything in your life you want if you help enough other people get what they want." It doesn't matter where you came from. It only matters where you're going. My name is Steve Simonson and I hope that you will join me on this Awesomer journey. SPONSOR ADVERTISEMENT If you're launching a new product manufactured in China, you will need professional high-resolution Amazon ready photographs. Because Symo Global has a team of professionals in China, you will oftentimes receive your listing photographs before your product even leaves the country. This streamlined process will save you the time money and energy needed to concentrate on marketing and other creative content strategies before your item is in stock and ready for sale. Visit SymoGlobal.com to learn more. Because a picture should be worth one thousand keywords. You're listening to the Awesomers podcast. 1:38 (Steve Simonson introduces today’s guest, Regina Peterburgsky.) Steve: Well you're listening to another Awesomers.com podcast. This one is episode number 41 and you can find the show notes and relevant details that we talked about today's show at Awesomers.com/41, at Awesomers.com/41. Today my guest is Regina Peterburgsky and I'm sure I'm mispronouncing her name but Regina is an extraordinary entrepreneur. And I'm thrilled that she is able to join us. And listen she's worked for 30 years without a salary job. Regina considers herself to be unemployable which is a trait that I think is common with a lot of different entrepreneurs. In fact, she had the realization about three years ago that the business she was in would not get her financial freedom. The goals she set for herself propelled her into becoming a new breed of the Amazon entrepreneurs. These are the folks that often call Amazon cornerstone businesses where they have decided to be in the E-commerce space but they're going to focus first on using the Amazon Marketplace. Gaining some leverage, gaining some scale, carrying on from there and it was a really great revelation she had. Within the episode, you're going to hear it live coming up just in a minute and a really great journey that she was been able to take herself through. She's been able to escape the nine-to-five rat race and build a lifestyle of her own dreams through building her business. Regina has tried her hand at many careers and life; succeeded in some, failed the others. That's just kind of how things go for us all. She's done everything from selling advertising, cars and insurance on commission, traveling the world as a tour director for ten years and she most recently, before her Amazon business owned a wholesale manufacturing and fashion business with two retail stores to boot. During the difficult time in her last business, the lights literally went on as she says that aha moment, if you will.

The first step towards overcoming your fears is to face them. On this episode, Steve introduces Brad Axelrad. Brad is an event producer, consultant, strategist and podcast host having produced over 150 live events with top business leaders and best-selling authors. Here are more awesome takeaways on today’s episode: The philosophy behind Face Your Dragon. How to transform your fears into strengths. Steps to tame your dragon: find, face, and then ride your dragon. And the first step to discovering the number one hidden fear stopping you from earning what you're worth. So turn up the volume and listen to today’s episode to learn how you can face your dragon and transform your life! Welcome to the Awesomers.com podcast. If you love to learn and if you're motivated to expand your mind and heck if you desire to break through those traditional paradigms and find your own version of success, you are in the right place. Awesomers around the world are on a journey to improve their lives and the lives of those around them. We believe in paying it forward and we fundamentally try to live up to the great Zig Ziglar quote where he said, "You can have everything in your life you want if you help enough other people get what they want." It doesn't matter where you came from. It only matters where you're going. My name is Steve Simonson and I hope that you will join me on this Awesomer journey. SPONSOR ADVERTISEMENT If you're launching a new product manufactured in China, you will need professional high-resolution Amazon ready photographs. Because Symo Global has a team of professionals in China, you will oftentimes receive your listing photographs before your product even leaves the country. This streamlined process will save you the time money and energy needed to concentrate on marketing and other creative content strategies before your item is in stock and ready for sale. Visit SymoGlobal.com to learn more. Because a picture should be worth one thousand keywords. You're listening to the Awesomers podcast. 01:15 (Steve introduces today’s guest, Brad Axelrad.) Steve: You’re listening to the Awesomers.com podcast episode number 33. That is episode number 33 which you can find as always in show notes at Awesomers.com/33. Now today my special guest is Brad Axelrad. And for over a decade Brad's been an event producer, consultant, strategist and podcast host having produced over 150 live events with top business leaders and best-selling authors. Now he's a proud founding member of the Association of transformational leaders of Southern California since 2010 and is a co-founder of the Association of transformational leaders in Costa Rica founded in 2017. On his Face Your Dragon podcast he interviews celebrities, thought leaders and icons like Don Miguel Ruiz, Ariel Ford, JP Sears and many more. Brad spent featured on numerous media outlets including NBC Nightly News, PBS television, The OC Register, LA Times, USC news and CBC News Canada. You're going to be glad you joined us today because Brad's going to help you face your own dragon and give you some of the techniques that he helps people overcome fear and stress and put yourself on a track towards mental wellness. Welcome back Awesomers, Steve Simonson joining you today again on the Awesomers.com podcast and today we're lucky we have Brad Axelrad joining us. How are you Brad? Brad: I'm great, it's good to be here. Steve: Well it's certainly a pleasure to have you and you know one of the things that you know the intro didn't really talk about but is this premise that you know being a consultant and a thought leader as you are, that you probably have you know kind of day-to-day responsibilities that you get into. And that's one of the things I like to start with this what do you do kind of on a day to day basis that would help our Awesomers out there understand kind of how you get by with your each of your days?

Our guest is an expert in servicing process, performing bank levies, wage garnishments, and skip trace investigations for California, Idaho, Hawaii, and Utah. He owns findmylegal.com, a legal professional directory, Stephen Snyder, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. How did you get started in this industry? Back in 1991 I was at church with a friend of mine. He was a process server. I didn't know that's what he did for a living. But, he and I were just talking one day in nursery because I was the person in charge of the nursery and his kid was in there, so we were just chit chatting and I said, "I've been kind of looking for a part-time job, something on the side to make some extra money." Yeah. And he says, "Well, I know something that you might be interested in and that's processoring." And I'm like, "What is processoring?" I'd never heard of it before. Anyways, he was working for a company in San Jose, California with a company called TMB legal, which was owned by Tom Bowman. Now his new company is called Sterling Massive. Oh yeah. His company hired my friend, and my friend was quitting because his job promoted him, and he didn't need to work extra hours anymore. So, I said, "Okay, let me go talk to Tom and see if we can work out something." I did and he hired me and I started working in south San Jose in the Morgan Hill, Gilroy, Hollister area. Then I just got to thinking, "I bet there's other companies that need someone in this area too," because I was the only one. Pretty soon it just blossomed and I had bunch of companies sending me work. I was kind of like an independent contractor for them. I didn't do any work for attorneys or paralegals directly. I was just working for other companies. That's kind of how I started. You have a lot going on right now and you're full of great experiences. But first, tell me about your worst experience working the field. I have been assaulted once. I think it was probably mid-nineties. I was trying to serve some small claims paper to an individual that owed some money to a jeweler. He bought a ring or something and didn't pay for it. Well, I knocked on the door and I spoke to the guy's son, and I told him what I was there for and I asked him where's his father to serve him. He said, "His dad wasn't there." And I said, "Well, according to California civil procedure I can serve the documents to you." He got pretty irate about it and ended up doing a drop serve on him and just saying, "You're being served. It's not really a choice that you have. You're being served." So I dropped them and I started walking away, and I had this feeling to turn around. As I turned around, this guy was coming at me with a beer bottle. It hit me. So I'm a fairly a big guy and this guy was a smaller guy, and I just kind of blocked him. I ended up calling the police, they came out and cited him. I went to the court hearing for his plea, how he's gonna plea. Well, he didn't show up. The judge issued a bench warrant for $20,000. I immediately went back to my office, prepared a small claims document, filed it with the court and we served him in small claims. He showed up to that. And then, we just kind of talked and found out that he, cost him a lot more than what the jeweler bail was, just to try to defend himself. He learned something the hard way. I let him off, except for $150. That's crazy. So you let him off with a $150? Well, he was quite remorseful at this point. I think he learned his lesson. I guess so, yeah. He had a misdemeanor on his record. As a server, when you're knocking on the door and you're going to walk away from the door, always be aware of what's behind you and what's coming at you. Yes, especially when you're dealing with someone like I was dealing with, became very irate and he was young. Kind of wanna keep your eyes on the back of your head a little bit. What would you have Server Nation take from your story the most? Just be aware of your surroundings. Be smart. Steve, tell me about your greatest experience about working in the field. I think that the greatest experience is when I'm able to deal with persons directly. What we call In Pro Per. Someone that's representing themselves, and we're able to be successful in helping them get something that they're owed. For example, I had a plaintiff come to me with a $30,000 judgment and he didn't know how to collect from this guy. We did a few things, including recording the judgment, and it attached to the fellows to the defendant's property, so that when he refinanced or sold, it would force him into paying the judgment. It was just a matter of preparing the abstract of judgment, recording it, and then within a few months, this guy ended up refinancing his home and my client got $3,000 judgment. Oh wow. I've been able to take people to the point of judgment very successfully like getting them and their papers filed, getting them served, getting a judgment, and then kind of, other than evictions, obviously, getting a red and lock out. But other than that its been pretty, I don't know, you got to find their bank accounts. For servers like me, how I've been in the past, would you be a good contact then to say, hey I know this guy, go ahead and contact this guy. He will be able to find their bank. Well we actually, I do have a service for finding bank accounts. I work with a private investigator out of Montana. They got some kind of software that they've developed and they can find bank accounts. That's cool. Then once we find out what that bank account is, then as the registered processor in California, I can prepare notice of levies and get documents ready for doing a bank levies. That's right. That's why its so important, I think, to collaborate and communicate with other servers in the industry. Yes, sometimes we might be direct competition with each other, but more often than not, we end up helping each other in this grand scheme that's processed. Yah definitely networking with other legal professionals is the way to go. That's an awesome story, Steve. Tell me about what you're working on right now that has you most fired up. I have been in the business since 1991. I've learned how to build a business, and I own several of them. Hawaii process servers, Utah process servers, Idaho precess servers, I could go on and on and just keep extending my business. Personally, I don't have the time to manage them all. So what I have been excited about doing is finding young process servers that are not found on the web. They need help to build their business. So, I work in conjunction with my company findmylegal.com in helping new process servers build their business and get noticed on the internet, because that is pretty much key. People, when they do a search, they go under Google and they look up the city, the state, and then the word process server. If your website is ranked on Google, they will find you, and we help the young process server build their new business. Well, Steve, you guys are being excited about, what did you say it was? Findmylegal.com? Yes. Findmylegal.com. So, Server Nation, you're a new server out there, go to findmylegal.com and roughly what does it cost, Steve? Well to list your company in the entire state, $6.99 per month. If you want us to help build a website, between $100.00-$200.00 depending on how many cities you want to advertise your company in. That's very inexpensive. That's possible for pretty much any server to be able to afford. There are other directories, I know, out there that charge just for one county, you know $20.00 and such. So, Steve, what advice would you give for the struggling server out there right now? What I would do, is I would Google Legal Professional Directory, and get your name on as many free websites as possible. There are others you can pay for, which rank very high on Google. If budget is an issue, the first thing to do is to get hooked up with some legal professional directories. They have a link directly from their website to yours, which assumes that you have one. So, that would be one thing that you would want to do, is make sure to get yourself a website. I use GoDaddy.com. They're great. They help solve all my websites, and they have a pretty cool program in there that helps you create the website. If you don't want to do that, findmylegal.com can help you do that. I usually just buy them and build a website on them, search engine, optimize them, and off and running. So Server Nation, Steve has been dropping some major value bombs on us today, but prepare yourself because we're headed into the rapid fire round after a word from our sponsors. Server Nation, I know you're with the times and you want to do whatever you can to have all the resources for your client. That is why I created 123efile.com as a process server, attorney, or even an in pro per. You can visit the website and file your documents in any of the pylor courts in California. With its easy to use one page operation, you can have your e-filing done in a matter of minutes and get back to working matters. If your time is important to you 123efile.com. Okay. Welcome back to the show. Steve are you ready for the rapid fire round? Excited about it. If you could recommend one app, what would it be and why? You know I'm a pretty simple guy. I just use Goggle maps and it just tells me where to go. After I finish a serve, I put in the next address and it tells me where to go. You know what they say, keep it super simple, Kiss. Right? Yah. That's awesome. So, what case tracking software would you recommend as the best? For many years, I used QuickBooks. It just kept track of how much people owed me. That's primarily because I worked for other processor companies. As my business developed, where I was working for attorneys directly, I needed to keep track of information specifically on them, and the jobs, and the proofs of service. I investigated several companies, worked with one I didn't care for, but I fund the best one that works for me is sermanager.com. I definitely recommend them. One thing that it helps me to do is to manage all the different companies that I have. So, I can create a job, make a server, the other company, if I want to.some of my customers are here in Utah, and they have a job in California. So, I will receive the job in Utah process service, then I'll assign it to California company, which is Hollister process service, and then my secretary there will assign it to a process server. So, you can kid of keep track of that chain of how the job is hiring out. So, you're using also internally and not just like me getting a job, sending it out. This case tracking software not only tracks the serve to send it to people, but you're also, with all of these softwares, you're able to create a proof of service, which for many servers is some of the biggest challenges. They're trying to find what documents are put their proof of service on. Yes, the servemanager.com has a bunch of different proof of service a lot in California. For someone's complaints, small claims, a proof of service, you can prepare all those proofs of service within the serve manager program and then save them. As the company that's prepared it, I can then email it to my server for them to print out or electronically sign directly within the software. Then I can forward that proof of service directly to the customer. It's been a great resource for us here at find process servers. What is your favorite skip trace tip or trick? I use a company called IRB Search. Usually check someone out there first. If the information on their is not really clear, they'll need something deeper, like maybe going to the post office to verify some address with the postal verification form. That's great. Yah, I also check Facebook. Check out to see where people might be working, because they're always real proud of where they work and they put down where it is. So, then you can link to it. Yah, another great Facebook tip or trick that I found is, if you feel like their super secretive but they usually will have their relationship status and they'll say married to Jane or whoever. You can go into Jane's and a lot of the time Jane isn't a secret and you can then go to their profile and then you find out actually what street they live on based on photographs. I feel like as servers, sometimes we become professional stalkers, and we can find anybody. That's kind of the goal, is to find them, just to give them the papers and that's it but you still fund them. Yah. Any little bit of information that you can get will start to pin point where this person is and that's the whole idea of skip tracing. That's right. You know I feel like I made the theme of this episode is going to be keep it super simple and keep it back to the basics, because it's so important to at least know what you need to do. IRV is a great resource. It's one of my skip tracing softwares that I use as well. What is your favorite tool for defense? I would say common sense. That's a good idea. The common sense thing isn't too common anymore. What book would you recommend? That's a good question. I think any kind of book that's can help you to focus on the days activities, if that's the Bible or the book of Mormon or whatever you like to read. Just to send some time in the morning, before you go out, and take some time on reading something that's going to be uplifting to you. So you can clear your mind and so that you can be aware of your surroundings during the day. There are many different books that help you become a better person. I feel like as a server and just having a well balanced life is really important. As a process server, we spend a lot of time on the road and the car, maybe sometimes a lot of times away from our family, and I think starting your day off right, whether it's reading scriptures, or meditating, those different types of things to help zero yourself. Give yourself a foundation to build on is very important. Thank you for that, Steve. Would you say that you have a mentor? Well, I always try to, if I have a question about something, I'll usually go back to my source company. If I have a question about something I will go to another process server that I respect. I have used Tom Bowman's office, and I've used attorney Silverson, they're pretty experienced too. I will usually bounce some ideas off of other process servers that have been in the business awhile. As far as process serving, I went to California to get my CCPS license when I first started out. The speaker there said that after you serve someone, get in the car and drive away. Don't try to do your notes right there. I think there's wisdom in that, because if this guy figures out what yo just did to them, you just served them papers, he might become upset and try to give them back to you. If you're gone down the street, it's going to be harder for him to get to you. I always try to drive 100 a couple 100 yards down the road and then write my notes. Yah. That's been a good one. That's something that I learned as well. That's really a great tip, a great thing that every server needs to learn. You don't spend time sitting in front of the house. You don't spend time in a place that you may be in danger. If you're looking down at your notes, you're not really watching the house or watching the person that you just served. Just turn around the corner. I have a two corner policy. When I leave the house, I go one corner another corner and then I can pull over. I'm going until I can pull down a side street somewhere, because safety is number one. Safety is the most important thing. Exactly. Jim Rones said that we're the average of the five people we spend the most time with. I'm really happy to hear that you have mentors. I know that I have certainly had mentors in different process serving companies and things. Like I said, before you would consider competition, but they actually end up being some of your greatest resources. Steve, this next question is one of our last questions, is a doozie. What would you do if you woke up today, had all the same skills and knowledge, had no clients, a smart phone, a car, and only $100.00, what would you do in the next 7 days? As far as process serving goes, I would first get myself a website. You can do that for under $100.00. If I was a brand new server, that's what I would do, is get myself a website and then develop it and help me move forward in starting process server company. Myself during my 25 plus years, I have been diversified in other types of businesses. I'm also a tax preparer, I've driven Uber, sometimes your business is a little slow at some times, and so you want to make sure that you're diversified so that if your company does tank, you have something else to fall back on. Steve, what I take most from your story, is the idea that as a precess server, you can't completely depend solely on getting a job every day, that you're going to go out and serve. It might be good to go out and get another. I know when I first started I went and got my notary, notary license. It wasn't a whole lot but if it gave me three or four extra jobs a week, then it was worth it. So that's great. Preparing taxes, it doesn't necessary correlate, but what's interesting is, I bought a domain name on efiletoday.com. I'm just going to run with this e-file thing and then I started realizing that e-file is almost more recognizable to the tax file industry then it is for the legal industry. The knowledge that I've gained from all the different employment has just been beneficial. There are things that I have learned with being tax prepared that have helped me with being a process server and vice versa. Whatever you can do to gain knowledge, that's important. That's great, Steve. You have been dropping some awesome, major value bombs on us today. Teaching us that keeping it simple is the most important, building a foundation for each day, finding ways to market yourself to other process serving companies, and then feeding off of each other, building a network, being able to get your name out there is really important. Steve, what is the best way that we can connect with you? And then we can say goodbye. Depending on which company you want to hire. You can go onto the web and look us up. My company in California is Hollister Process Service. You can phone me on my cell phone, I'll give that to yah, 808-557-5615. If you have any questions about wanting some help building your new process serve company, I'd be glad to sit down and talk to you, no charge. We can go over what your goals are. Then I can make some suggestions on what you can do, and if you want to use my services to help build your website, I would be glad to help you out. Wow. Server Nation, if you heard that, you just heard Mr. Snider is willing to personally help you build your business. Steve, thank you again, you have a great day. We appreciate you being on. I'm glad that you had me on. It was an awesome experience. Server Nation, I know that you know all about directories and that you know the important ace of getting yourself on the web, in as many places as possible, but it;'s more than that Server Nation. It's about putting yourself on the websites that get ranked on Google, Yahoo, and Bing. I'm excited about a new program that I'm starting. Really quickly let me tell you. As a process server, I don't cover the whole country, right? We send server out that already process servers and we call that affiliates. My new program is going to incorporate existence. My customers come under my website and they do a location search, try to find a process server in a specific location. Many times I do not serve that area and so I might hire an affiliate in another area and manage to serve that way. That takes time and effort away from my local customers and the local efforts that I have here in northern California. I want to personally invite each and every member of Server Nation to add themselves to my directory on my website. This is what's going to happen, my customers who come to me loyally, will search a specific location. If I don't cover a specific location, but you do, guess who shows up? You do. How great is that, Server Nation? I'm going to share something that means so much to me, my customers. I believe that this will benefit my customers, because they will have a resource to go to to find process servers and to get the best rates nationwide. Oh but there's a catch, Server Nation. There is always a catch. My directory is free for any affiliate, just sign up and get the basic affiliate level, but if you do not perform when my customers come and they see that it is not me or one of my employees or contractors, and they see that its you, you're going to see a rating next to your name. If your rating falls, you may not get any business. Server Nation, give it a shot. Sign up to the listing. Take care of my customers. I love them like they're family. Visit processserversdaily.com/affiliates. Server Nation stay safe out there.

Steve: Welcome to all of our Becoming Your Best podcast listeners, where ever you might be in the world today. This is your host Steve Shallenberger and we have a very special guest and friend on our show today and I am as excited as I've ever been to have somebody here. He's wonderful. He’s a one of a kind individual with a life of inspiring others, including me, and helping people all over the world to reach their fullest potential and dreams. Welcome Denis Waitley.   Denis:  Hey Stephen! Great to be with you. It's a real honor and a privilege to be on your podcast and I hope we can shed some more light to your audience which you do so well on Becoming Your Best.   Steve: Well thank you so much. Well yes we'll just go ahead and get right into it and before we get going I'd like to just give a little background of some of the things that Denis has done and generally his nature which is amazing. He is inspired, informed, challenged and entertained audiences for over thirty five years. I know that because in 1983 and 1984  in one of my first companies where we had 700 sales reps that were going all over the world - Denis was one of the individuals that we invited to speak to and train all of these young sales reps. There were going all over, and they were energetic of full of energy but Denis and along with the number of his friends Zig Ziglar, Earl Nightingale, Ira Hayes -  I mean these are some really cool people who changed our lives and Denis was one of those. And so we're just part of that but he has done that all over the entire world. He's spent many years in China , hopefully will have the chance to have them tell us a little about that experience, in India, United States. Recently he was voted business speaker the year by the Sales and Marketing Executives Association and the by Toastmasters international and inducted into the international speakers hall of fame. He's had over ten million audio programs sold in fourteen different languages. This is just great! I actually pulled Denis a number of your books off my bookshelf again this morning. I've read that many times -  The Psychology of Winning, The Seeds Of Greatness and it goes on. His audio album The Psychology of Winning is the all time best selling program on self mastery. He's a graduate of the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis and a former navy pilot. He holds a doctoral degree in human behaviour. Denis we’re so excited to have you with us!   Denis: Well thank you Steve. It's really great to be with you. You know it's been a wonderful journey. I'm still out there. You know people say,  Well, you’re long past retirement age and I said well retire - by its very definition means to go to bed or tired for the last time. If you're retired it seems tired again. So  I'm re inspired and retried instead of retired and I think that's one of the secrets that we all learn from people like Billy Graham and people like you know George Burns. You can name them and they seem to live longer because they're engaged in learning and they have the curiosity of a child that doesn't end when you finally stop earning. So I think you're yearning should and learning should continue regardless of your no longer earning.   Steve: Well that is a great way to put it. All of a sudden,  that great voice a Denis Waitley is coming back and we just kinda lean forward to listen to all those great quotes that you have. That's an inspiration for me , like I'm already past retirement ,but I am no where compared - I think Denis is like a 184 at least. Denis: It seems like it. You know, Steve, I've been doing eulogies for all of my contemporaries and that’s not, of course something that you look forward to. So, I did the eulogy for my friend, Jim Rone, Eulogy for my friends Zig Ziglar, for Wayne Dyer, Eulogy for my friend Steven Covey and even for Robert Schuller and Billy Graham was a friend of mine. I don't like to drop names like that but as I look at it them, I say to myself, “Wow, I'm so fortunate to still be out here.” But I have a cousin in England, Jack Reynolds ,who's 106 and he holds the Guinness Book of Records for the highest, longest, zip line journey for the oldest person. And it shows him at 106,  shouting and yelling as he's going down this is a blind over the mountain in England and I asked him how do you live so long and he said,” I look forward to being a 107.”   Steve: Well that's great you know just recently Denis I've had the opportunity in just the last few months to be with the number of longevity in health doctors just on a retreat or different circumstances - one in Singapore there. Dr Oz was one of them. Another, Dr Mao is his name and then the third Dr Foruhy - they're amazing but they talk about, and there among the world's leaders on health and longevity. They all reflected a number of things in common that we can do to extend healthy living: stay fit,  get adequate sleep. One of the ones I like the Dr Oz said was your heart needs to have a reason to keep beating.   Denis:  Well that's good, that's a very good.  That's when I have learned that too because I studied Prisoners Of War for my doctoral dissertation and I found that no American prisoner escaped during the Korean War from a minimum security camp but many of them escape from maximum security camp and that's because leaders always want to get home, or get to where they're going and people who feel that they're victimized and have no way out or no way forward, then don't live as long and that's what happens to many service people and coaches when they retire . If they retire and do nothing and have nothing really going on, you know we all say why don't we just play golf and fish. Well I like to eat what I catch and I don't like to kill fish necessarily but I do like taste of a fresh fish and I don't play golf anymore because why would I run my self esteem on a want like that.   Steve: That’s great. Well there's so much we can talk about that I think today let's start talking and I hope you don't mind and for the benefit of our audience, I'd like to start off talking about The Psychology Of Winning. This is a wonderful book and I am going to read just a small portion out of it. It’s an introduction and then perhaps Denis can tell us about what inspired him, what led to him write The Psychology Of Winning, and how was it been impactful in your life and others? So let me read this clip first. This is where he talks about true winning. True winning however is no more than one's own personal pursuit of individual excellence. You don't have to get lucky to win at life nor do you have to knock out other people down or gain at the expense of others. Winning is taking the talent or potential you were born with and have since developed and using it fully towards a goal or purpose it makes you happy. Winning is becoming the dream of yourself that would fulfill you as a person with high esteem. And winning is giving and getting in an atmosphere of love, cooperation, social concern and responsibility and that is why I've been so inspired about Denis because not only does he set it out there but then he's he says now here are some things that we need to do the will help us realize those dreams. So how did it all happen? What led to The Psychology Of Winning.   Denis:  Well, that you know, of course a long journey, but as things always start in childhood - so as a little boy, I grew up during World War II - a dysfunctional family. My father left home when I think I was 9 years old when he left but he went to war and then he and my mother broke up and my mother became very bitter because they weren't spending his checks home and so she became disillusioned with life and was fairly negative it and as a way of combating that disillusionment I rode my bike about ten miles over to my grandmother's house every Saturday because she was an inspiration. So she and I planted a victory garden and she taught me about the seeds of greatness. She said whatever you put in the soil and nurture will come up and be fruitful and I said, “But how come weeds don't need water?” And she said, “Well weeds are like negative thoughts. They blow in on the wind and they don't need any water and they just need people to repeat them.” So we did this victory garden and she inspired me when I was little and in a dysfunctional family where your father maybe is an alcoholic and your mother's a negative for perhaps all of the right reasons, I found that by reading biographies of people who'd overcome enormous obstacles to become successful - I found that these people had problems that I never even dreamed about and yet they seem to be fulfilled and happy. So I read a lot and then I began to try to be a leader in my school to overcome feelings of inadequacy and feelings of abandonment perhaps by my father and to make a long story short,  going to the Naval Academy during the Korean War, I learned a lot about discipline and target seeking and I became a navy pilot which meant that I had to visualize, internalize, I had to fantasize but I had to be goal oriented and I think as a surfer in southern California who finally became disciplined enough to be a carrier pilot, these things went together but I never wanted to destroy people in war-  I want to defend my country but I had a calling that I wanted to develop the potential within people because I was struggling myself and to make a really long story short ,during the worst time in my life, when I had custody of my 4 little children, I was divorced and had no income I wrote The Psychology of Winning at the worst of times. Now people, you know Tony Robbins and some of my friends would say, “Well usually, you write a book about your success!” And I said “Well I wrote the book for myself, so that I could learn from what I was not doing to do the things I know I should be doing. And so at the worst of my time, I wrote my best work so to speak, and so I think writing it for myself, giving myself the encouragement to do things that were a little more difficult but took a little more habit, a little more discipline, a little more effort; I put together these principles and I use POW because I had been a rehab facilitator for the returning Vietnam prisoners of war and I use that as a metaphor-  POW means either Prince Of Wales, putting on weight, power of women or psychology of winning and it's a perception through the eye of the beholder. So my premise is it's not so much what happens to you that counts, it's how you take it and what you make of it so what's your response to the daily life ; your anticipation of the future and the way you treat failure as fertilizer. Failure is the fertilizer of success. My grandmother used to say as we were fertilizing our plants, she said “We just take all the stuff and mulch and up and it grows green plants,” and I said “So that's what you do with failure huh? She said you don't lay in it wallow in it. You use it as a learning experience. So I would say that my grandmother who immigrated from England and going through World War 2 and the Korean War -  I thought we'd always be at war because that's all I knew growing up, and so I was so gratified to realize that the war is finally ended but POW, does really mean for me psychology of winning rather than a prisoner of war.   Steve: Wonderful! Boy, what we're great comments and thanks for the background. Talk about seeds! There are so many nuggets of what you just shared of and your grandma must've been some lady!   Denis:  Well I think about every day I have a mahogany butterfly that she always wanted that I finally made enough money with my paper out to buy it for is the only gift that I wanted from her life but it's in my kitchen and I look at it every day and we have a little silent conversation but she was definitely the role model and inspiration in my life and that I'll always be grateful for having her. She would say “You mow the bass line I've ever seen.” and I would ride my bike 10 miles just to get that kind of recognition from her and that good feeling of you're a good boy and you can do good things and the seeds of greatness and I  always ask her “Will the Japanese win?” And she said “No ,you always get out what you put in.” So you get the harvest of the seeds that you sell sow - she said they will not win because their premise for doing what they did was not good and honest. I said “Wow.” She said, “So model yourself after people who've given service but not necessary are celebrities,” and I've always felt that the most successful people will never be known in the media because they're not celebrities, they are so busy living life and doing good they don't get covered by the media.   Steve: Great insights! if you wouldn't mind, you said something that caught my attention. You said in the middle of all this you had to you know this wonderful influence and contrast of experiences as a young man but the influence of your grandma on talking about planting the right seeds and in in the middle of all this where you're feeling “a bit like a failure,” because of some of the things that had happened , you said just mention that you felt a calling to help others develop their potential and you included yourself in that group. Would you mind talking about that feeling you had? This calling you felt that you needed to address and respond to and how big of a deal was that for you?   Denis: What was really a big deal see because at the Naval Academy is Episcopalian and growing up the only religious training I had was my grandma reading some really great proverbs and things out of the good book. So I went to Sunday school because the Presbyterians have better uniforms on the softball team and so I went through all these religious experiences and finally and later Billy Graham said to me, “So you've got all these experiences what denomination are you? and I said, “Sir I was hoping you might give me a suggestion.” And  he said, “You know you're on your journey .” So the truth of the matter is when I would hear Handel's messiah at Christmas time , there was this inner tingling and this feeling that there was something internal and I think I was becoming acquainted with my soul and yet not having any formal religious training, it was definitely an inner inspiration so I felt that perhaps I had made a lot of mistakes in my apprenticeship in life so that I might be able to learn to do the right things. And much of what I've written about are certainly repetitions of the scriptures and the Old and the New Testament and all the great books that have been written so there's no question that I'm not an original. I'm someone who's leaned from reading and experiencing and traveling about these things and I think that it was at that bad time of not having income, having my four children wanting to come back home  to San Diego or to California and I was in Pittsburgh in their worst winter and I had just sold the Jonas Salk Foundation to the Mellon Foundation back in Pittsburgh and I found myself divorced with custody of four children who didn't want to be with me in Pittsburgh in the winter. They wanted to come home. It's almost like saying  “Come on we've always been a team!” And they said ‘We want to go home, dad.” I said,” I know but you're with your dad.’ They said “Yeah I know but we want to go home,” and I think that was the turning point where you put your head out the window and say, I'm fed up with myself. I'm not going to take it anymore but which meant I'm not going to do this to myself. So I went into this program of self analysis, self awareness and found that I was not doing the very things that I had read about and I was only superficially scratching the surface. I was only skin deep and so I got into it very deeply and that became that book for The Psychology Of Winning which became an audio program first and then a book, was really a diary of what I needed to learn myself and the only regret I have Steve, is that at the time that I wrote it, OJ Simpson was running through airports for Hertz Rent-A- Car and had suffered rickets as a child and had bold legs and he became this NFL superstar and I included him in my book and I've been trying to remove him from the book ever since. But you can't pick winners in all of the so called role models. He certainly isn’t a role model but so in other words by I learned these principles for me so that I would do them and I began to do them and I went from being somebody who was always late, which is perfect for my name, “Waitley,” - wait for me and so I should have changed my name to swiftly or rushly but I became Waitley but I became first to the gate Waitley. I became someone who was always on time and I did that because I am an absolute believer in the creation of habit and I've learned so much about good and bad habits and healthy and unhealthy and about ninety percent of our daily activities are habitual we do them autonomically without even thinking and so I've spent most of my life trying to help people not break habits - but you don't break a habit. You re write it ,you overcome it, you change it but you don't break it. You know habits are like submarines there silent and deep. They're like comfortable beds easy to get into but difficult to get out of and habits are just this knit pattern of thought that becomes automatic after a while and so I think working with the Olympics, I was really lucky as you know, Bill Simon was president of the Olympics and he appointed be as the first chairman of Psychology for United States Olympics in 1980 and through that experience, I watch these amazing young people get into the habit of winning. And they became they did within what they were doing without and they simulated and they rehearse and they practiced, on and off the field and finally watching the skiers go through the visualization at the top of the run before they hit the first gate and watching swimmers go through the meat ,watching figure skaters backstage going to their routines and not falling during the Triple Axel. I saw all of this and I said you know in addition to being emotionally inspired there definitely is a way to do this if you can control your thinking and if you can fill your thoughts which I call “Psycho Linguistics,” because thoughts are traffic and the brain is either a cul de sac construction zone or freeway. And you can create a freeway in your brain by controlling the traffic that flows through your brain and it actually makes a new highway toward your goal is like a GPS system but instead of a goal positioning satellite or a positioning satellite, it’s a goal positioning system in your brain that you can train to have a target so specific and so emotional that your brain will allow very little distraction to get you there so fortunately through the years neuroscience has proven that positive thinking is more than just the placebo effect. It actually are creators internal pharmacy that really helps optimism become the biology of hope as well as the psychology of hope.   Steve: These are some really extraordinarily inspirational ideas and I'm just thinking I know that so many of our listeners including me and I'd expect all of them have this feeling of something special that they can do in life and then it takes going through thinking about their own unique talents in this introspection that you describe saying how do I address that and how do I concretely move forward and so, these things that you're sharing are so important , so inspirational. I know that they're covered in your books. As you think about this the book Psychology Of Winning, you've been talking about on some of the key parts that are really important for us to realize our goals.   Denis: Well that's a very good question. I think the first one is realizing that your intrinsic worth. I think that worth internalized is better than worth externalized and I think you have to feel deserving of success before you'll really experience it, which really means that if love is not inside of you ,then how can you give away something you don't possess? So love must be there in the first place and I'm not talking about narcissistic self love. It’s the kind of thing that say given my parents and my background given who I am, how I look ,what age I am my ethnicity my religious beliefs ,I'm kind of glad I am me! And in fact I'd rather be me than anyone else in the world live in at any other time, in fact that's who I am. I'm as good as the best but not necessarily better than the rest so I don't compare myself favorably or unfavorably with other people although the Olympics do that with the standard of excellence but that's just to be an Olympian and to compete with world class standards -doesn't mean you're necessarily trying to knock and beat the other person. You're just trying to be your best against world class standards. So I think the most important thing is to believe in your potential because only then will you invest in yourself. if you don't feel worth investing and then you won't invest in it you'll live your life as a spectator - happy to be in the stands and I am happy to be in the stands as well watching tremendous performances but it's much more fun to be in the arena however small and participating. So I think intrinsic self worth, believing in your dream when that's all you have to hang on to is the single most important quality. And then the second one is to always give more in value than you expect to receive in payment, because it seems to be that you really do have an unfailing boomerang. People always called the law of attraction or the law of cause and effect but I found when I am truly interested in helping other people genuinely not to get something for me ,but if I get out of me and into them and transmit whatever value I have in the way of service or advice, that in that way I don't expect a return on the investment but I usually get it ten fold. So I've always believed that if you give more in value than you receive in payment you'll be truly rich in every sense and then of course there is the idea of expectation, optimism, the world revolves around optimism and people who believe in solutions rather than are just complaining about the problems and we have so many critics and so many tweets and so much Twitter as so many instagrams and so much Facebook and so many selfies. You know I'd like to be unselfish in a selfie world and I'd like to instead of being skin deep, I'd like to be soul deep and I'd like to measure diversity not based on how you look on the outside but the experiences you've had as you've been growing up . In other words we all bring a diversity of experience, why do our eyes have to tell us what we should believe or why the war years and our eyes have to be the ones that are the megaphone and also that the block? So I believe that in expecting the best ,that optimism, Harvard does have a new school of placebo and they have found that even people who have after stopping the surgery if you have the sham surgery which you agree to and they just do a little incision and sew it up, the chances of your recovery and feeling good are almost as well as if you have the real surgery which shows that God has given us this incredible ability to believe in something that we really want and is valuable and gives us the pharmacological influence to do it in other words: the endorphins and the harbingers of peace and happiness. So I believe also that happiness is the decision that you make and I train the Olympians above all I've decided to be happy and I think happiness is a decision, not a results and if you wait for a result to make you happy, you'll probably be for ever hung in that suspense of wondering when it's going to happen.   Steve: Well I'll just tell you, Denis, for all of us who are working on becoming our best, which literally creates a fulfilment of light, a happiness within us that goes out and radiates and touches everybody. These things that you're teaching us and sharing with us today are the very things that create that light and I've been taking good notes today. I thank you for that and I'm always shocked at how fast time goes like we're done.   Denis: I know we are! I spent a lot of my time talking to uber drivers and I said you know you have this incredible mechanism and they say, “You being my little GPS that I have up here on my dashboard so I can take,” I said yes first you must know where you are and then you crank in where you want to go and if you know where you are and where you want to go it's much easier to get there because that's called focus and specificity. And they go, wow,  thanks for the info doc! Do I get to I get a tip? Anyway Steve it's been a real thrill, a real honor for me to be with you.  I just keep wanting to plant apple seeds like Johnny Appleseed and I don't know how many of them will get in the soil and take but doesn't matter if you just keep throwing them out - one or two and all I want to do is make a difference in one or two lives and that's enough for me. Plant shade trees under which I myself will never sit.   Steve: Thank you. I can tell you for sure of one person and I know it's countless people where that seed that has fallen and grown and continues to do so. So I personally thank you!   Denis: Well thanks, Steve. I hope we connect again we will. When you're this way and I'm that way let's really do have a reunion. That’s important - friends who haven't seen each other but are still friends for a long time.   Stev: You bet, you can count on that. Now we can't end this podcast without this question and the question is, if you're giving in a parting shot to your family or your friends and brothers or sisters across the world ,what would it be it would be?   Denis: It would be that time is the only equal opportunity employer and please don't rush to your life trying to get wealthy only to find yourself too old to do the things that you save the money to do and remember the one most important thing; the values you leave in your children are much more priceless than the valuables you leave them in your estate. My children have never thanked me for all the money that I've spent on them but we always talk and laugh and cry over the time we spent together. So make sure you spend time with those you love, not just tweets and that just instagrams and not just text .   Steve:  Thats great advice.  Denis how can people find out more about what you're doing? How can they have access to your book , your materials or whatever?   Denis:  I think you know just going to DenisWaitley.com and I have that funny one n  in my nameand I what I'm trying to do is create a library and most of it free. So I'm not trying to get people to go to my website so I'll make money off them. I'm trying to go so that they'll be able to get NFL locker room style pep talks for free which would mean that the music the lyrics, if you will the quotes and the best of what I've done. I'd rather give it to them free then try to sell them something on a subscription so hopefully they'll get more free than trying to surf around the store.   Steve: Wonderful, thank you Denis for being part of the show today. It’s been amazing! We wish our friends that are listening today all the best as well as you continue making a huge difference in the world I'm Steve Shallenberger with becoming your best global leadership wishing you a great day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Interview with Steve Durie Hugh Ballou: Greetings, it's Hugh Ballou. Another episode of The Nonprofit Exchange live, it's Hugh Ballou and Russell Dennis. Russell, how are you doing today out there in beautiful Colorado? Russell Dennis: After a snowfall last night, the sun has come back out. Everything is beautiful out here in Colorado. Hugh: Love it. People on the podcast can't see it, but you've got a shiny head. Is that part of the sign, or is that just the light over your head? Russell: All of this glare helps keep the focus off of the shadow here with all of the gray hair in it, so there is a method to my madness shining the light here. Hugh: I see that. Russell, the real person. We have a guest who is also a resident of Colorado, but he is a new resident of Florida. We are going to hear from him in just a minute. Today's topic is protecting your culture by doing effective vetting of the people you're bringing in, be it volunteers or paid staff. Steve Durie, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Steve Durie: Thank you, Hugh. It's good to be here. Hugh: So good to have you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, some background, and how did you arrive at what you're doing now? Why is it important to you? Steve: I have been doing this for 15 years. Where it started was when I was actually volunteering in youth organizations with my kids. My question was: Aren't you going to run a background check on me? They're like, No, we don't do that. We trust everyone. Previous to that, I had a lot of database experience in a consulting company in consulting on justice projects, that is, how to share criminal data. I took that knowledge about sharing criminal data and my passion for keeping my own kids safe and know that I was going to be working as a volunteer and turned it into a business 15 years ago. My kids are a little older now, and my wife Laura and I have a special needs son. He is an adult; he is 31. But he is also extremely vulnerable and needs protection. He doesn't live at home anymore. And that is a constant worry about Tommy, whether the people who are working alongside him are safe. It does transcend not just our children in their youth, but into any vulnerable population. That is a broad brushstroke is anybody who is vulnerable, and we can look at each group individually as to how to best screen someone and check them out if we are working with children, youth, or vulnerable adults, or elderly, or single people. There are a lot of different. Vulnerable populations who may need our work. Hugh: Absolutely. It's really good to know about people. In the work that Russell and I do through SynerVision, we help people build their strategy out. Part of that is competencies. We have created a new paradigm that replaces the position description, and the first of four colors is the competency. When you look at somebody's competency, you also want to do a background check so that you can validate what is on their resume, that they actually do that. Are there some hidden things in there? Finding out about the people. What is their performance going to be? Role and responsibility? If it's financial, there is another level of compliance. I used to live in a town of 30,000, and one year, there were two nonprofits that had treasurers make away with $750,000, trusted friends and community members. They didn't do an adequate background check or have safeguards in place. The third color is the culture fit. If somebody has a history of conflict or abuse, you don't really want them spoiling your culture. The fourth color is expectations, but the vetting the person, competency, not only are they clean, but they also fit the culture. There are lots of reasons in any kind of enterprise to do the background check. I think it's especially important when we are dealing with people who are compromised, like your son, like children, like older adults. There are lots of opportunities for people to abuse the system. You have worked with nonprofits so far, have you? Steve: Our focus of the company SecureSearch is with the nonprofit community. It's been over 15 years; we have served over 10,000 nonprofits as their partner for screening their staff, their volunteers, and their board of directors. We are a full-service company. We can do anything, from resume verification to child awareness for those who work with children. Hugh: Resume verification. I heard a guy one time, and his resume said he went to Yale and studied finance. I found out later he didn't graduate. People make up things on their resume. That's a new piece of data. Are nonprofits any more vulnerable than for-profits? Is there an attitude of difference there? You told a story about you being a volunteer, and you ask about the background check. They said we trust people. Do you find that to be more common than not? Steve: I find that to be pretty common in the nonprofit culture where they are really hungry for people to serve and to help. With that, sometimes they actually push aside the fact that these people may have a nefarious past. They are looking to quickly onboard them, get them into a position. They are happy to have a warm body. They are happy to have the skillset the individual brings to the table. Referred by a close friend or family member, so they are not even thinking about screening them, especially if they are not working directly with a child. When they are working with a child, it's more in our consciousness that we should put the best people with these kids to keep in faith. But what about people who are just working alongside one another? The workplace violence conflict. We need to focus on making all of our communities and all of the workplaces as safe as possible. It's the responsibility of the organization to do so. But nonprofits, because of their compromised budgets in some cases, they are spending their money elsewhere to maybe grow their projects and they are not really thinking about the people, if they are safe in the environment they are working in. In corporate America, it is common, and in the nonprofit arena, it is not as common. We are here as a voice to raise the awareness that everybody should be doing this, whether you have one employee or thousands. Hugh: You and I met at a conference last week, CEO Space. Had I met you—I came in late in the week because I had conflicts—and said, “Hey Steve, what is it that you do?” and you say, “I do background searches,” and I say, “I have a nonprofit. Why is it important for me to do that?” How would you respond to me? Steve: As a nonprofit? Hugh: If I say, “I have a nonprofit. Why is it important for me to do that?” Steve: You touched on this. It's about reducing risk and reducing liability. Liability is big. It all ties into the overall image in the community they're serving. It's protecting their image. It doesn't have to be their first priority. The first priority is protecting those who are part of their organization. You have to look at the entire hierarchy of your staff from your board of directors down to your volunteers. Oftentimes, there are people in between the upper board and the volunteers who are just coming on who get missed. They didn't think it was important to screen them. Really it's about lowering your liability and lowering your risk, or at least managing your risk. You can't be a risk-free organization; that doesn't exist. It's about, how do you take steps and utilize your budget dollars to minimize your risk as much as you possibly can? Hugh: Russell, you and I interface with a lot of nonprofit leaders and boards. I find there is a lot of boards that aren't up to speed on how to be the board. They think about being in charge of governance sometimes. They sometimes realize they are responsible for financial oversight. I don't think boards realize they have a liability whatever happens. Do you find, Russell, in your work that boards are blind to this element as well? Russell: I have talked to people who really don't have a core grasp of the notion of having liability insurance for the board of directors officers as they are putting these things together. They don't understand how critical that is and what risks are involved. A large part of the problem is people don't know what they don't know. Nonprofit leaders, these are people centered in the idea of making the world a better place and service to others. They are more prone to take people at their word as opposed to doing any sort of digging. They may not think there is a big risk associated with bringing a person on. It's nice to be able to take people at their word, but it depends on what kind of work you're doing, who you're serving, the assets of your organization you're protecting. It never occurs to people there may be a scurvy elephant roaming around the zoo. You have to have a look at who you're dealing with. People aren't always who they say they are. That is just the reality of it. It's important to look at these things up front because if you don't have a person who is not in integrity in there in the first place, you don't have to figure out how to get rid of them later on when you could have problems. The reputation of your organization could be at stake. You just have these horror stories. There was a veterans' organization a few years ago that saw their reputation fall apart because the CEO was playing games with the books. Always you have to think in terms of protecting yourself with your regulations, with internal controls, with the way money and other assets are handled. More important, how you deal with the people you serve. You can really get in a lot of trouble easily and quickly without in the least bit intending to. Hugh: Steve, did that shake loose any thoughts for you? Steve: Yeah, it actually did. I do believe that nonprofits feel that the people they bring in have the heart for what they do. If they have a heart for what they do, then they are probably good people. I really think that is a mistake a lot of them make. Taking that assumption because they say they believe in what you believe in, they have the passion for what you have a passion for, that doesn't mean they have the same background you have. A lot of people are trying to use their influence they currently have in the community, it could be a leader in the community, to find their way into a vulnerable group. That is the MO of a pedophile is to build up trust in everybody around them, including building themselves up to be leaders in the community so that everybody seems to trust them, and that is when they can get to the vulnerable children and build relationships without anybody thinking twice about it. Screening is not going to catch everybody, only if they have been arrested or convicted of something in the past. It's only one part of the puzzle for keeping not only your organization safe, but those that you serve. It goes much more beyond the background check. I don't think anyone can feel that they have that warm fuzzy feeling now that I have implemented background checks. I'm good, I got a green check mark for that person, I can just let them go. That is a wrong approach. You really need to have a conscious community around that everybody is the eyes and ears of the organization. We all have to keep our eyes on who we're working alongside. If they are doing something we believe is incorrect or harmful to the organization or to those who serve, to make sure we all feel empowered to report those things, especially for physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, whatever you might see. It's up to us to report it. Hugh: There is another realm that Russell talked about with having your policies and procedures up to date. You just pointed out, we have to pay attention. That is part of our responsibility as a leader to see what is in front of us. I never realized people who are—and it makes sense if you talk about it—a pedophile positions themselves in a place of trust and then continues to validate that, so they throw people off guard. No, it couldn't possibly be true. I have known people in that position before, and they were busted. Eventually you got caught. How long does it take and how many people do you hurt in the process? At least do your background check, which also helps relieve your liability. I'm sure some of the companies that Russell talked about that issue board insurance require a background check so they have less liability. I didn't warn you: When Russell comes in, he asks you the hard questions. I'll ask you easier ones first while he formulates the hard ones. Give us an example where people were trusting, and it really created damage. Then you came in and maybe you helped them get a process in place to prevent it in the future. Without naming names, what are the kinds of things that people should be alert to?   Steve: There are so many stories. Some have been recently in the news that everybody is aware of. One is USA Gymnastics with Dr. Nassau. Building trust, not only from the organization, but with the parents of these young children in the gymnastics program, and then going on to abuse them for years without ever getting caught. Sandusky at Penn State, same thing. He was able to testify with his peers that showering with young boys was just about cleanliness. They are always going to try to lie about who they are and have somebody believe it. They are masters at it. They never take any responsibility for their actions. It's that narcissistic behavior on the pedophile side. Another story has nothing to do with a criminal record. This was a nonprofit organization that had drivers and they were doing deliveries. One of the individuals when we met with them, and we were on site for this one, he was in the state of Colorado, but he had a Tennessee drivers' license. He said he had been here for four years. I asked him why didn't he have a Colorado license. He said that he lost his license in Colorado from too many speeding tickets, so he had to go to my parent's house in Tennessee to get a license. He is volunteering for an organization that drives one of their vehicles. People can get around from their past and get away from their past, whether it's criminal behavior or not. It could be resume fudging. That happens more than you know, especially for certain positions, for executive director positions, finance positions, COO type positions, where they can say they have a Master's degree in finance. They really just have a Bachelor's, or they never finished college. They put it on their resume for years, and nobody questioned it. There are stories where the CEO of RadioShack, and RadioShack is falling from grace, but the CEO never had his Master's degree in business, never had his MBA. It was a reporter who figured it out and started reporting on it. Then he resigned or got let go. Same thing with the president of the business school of Harvard. She had miscommunicated on her resume that she had a Ph. D, and she never did. Organizations that we all know about and have heard about, down to around the corner with businesses in your neighborhood or possibly even your organization. It's important to vet the higher-end positions in your organization. It's not just about the volunteers. I can go on forever about why it's important for the volunteers, but anybody working in your office, making sure you are looking at embezzlement or money laundering or anything that deals with your budget, your finances, your books, make sure those are always intact and that you are bringing on the best people. Background checks don't always catch everybody. They may never have been arrested before. I am going to go back to what Hugh was talking about with the pedophile. Eventually they get caught. That's not true. They never get caught, and they die with their secrets. The average pedophile molests 137 children in their lifetime without ever getting arrested for it. That is where the training is more important than the background check and being aware and keeping their eyes open. Hugh: Wow. I guess there is some people who will be polite and they think it's not polite to do a background check. Have you come across that? How do you respond to that? Steve: For the last 15 years, we have dealt with that. I don't know exactly where that really stems from other than they feel like it's unkind to ask someone to sign a consent form to do a background check. They are giving of their time, and I feel like I am invading their privacy if I ask them for this information. But you have to think about your organization and its reputation and why you have that organization set up in the first place. Then you have to make sure you bring on the best people. You just need to frame it differently: we are a culture of safety instead of just being haphazard about who we bring on. I think that everybody who comes on board would feel more confident with the person sitting next to them, with the person they are running an errand with to Office Depot if they are going in the same vehicle together. You will have a higher level of confidence that the organization did the right thing before you came. Hugh: Where is the person who said, “Oh, I don't want to be impolite to them,” so they back down from not realizing they are being impolite to everyone else in the culture. I don't want to make trouble, but if they don't do that, they will make trouble for everybody else. What about the person who says, “I don't have time for that?” That sounds like too much trouble. Steve: The one issue with nonprofits is wearing so many hats and being so busy. I think that sometimes the background check seems like a daunting task, especially if they have never done them. First, I have to vet a company. I don't know where to go to trust somebody. I don't want to do all the paperwork. I have enough things going on. I don't even understand background checks. How am I going to do this? I don't have a Human Resources background, nor do I have a HR director on staff. That is where SecureSearch makes it a little unique. We can come in understanding that that is one of your pain points on not having enough people to do all of the tasks you have to do. We made everything paperless. Not only are the consent forms, but also the entire process of signing up is paperless. Everything is the click of a button. The applicants, whether they be your board of directors, staff, or volunteers, they do all of the data entry. All you're doing is sending an email invitation. Simple as that. Hugh: Wow. If I came to you and said I have ten volunteers and I need to take them through a background check, then you'd give me a consent form for them to sign, with permission to do that. Steve: The way you phrased that is interesting, that you give them a consent form. It's actually against the law for us to provide a template consent form. We provide samples. All consent forms are the organization's form. It's not my form. We provide a sample, but it is really up to each organization to go through legal counsel and make sure everything is in there that needs to be in there and that it meets their federal and state laws. We try to do our best with our samples to make sure they are good, but you should only use that as a framework. Hugh: Before you can do the background check, I have to have them sign a form though. Steve: Yes. That form can be in paper, or it can be through our paperless volunteer and applicant portal that is called Search My Background that we have. If everything is in the portal electronically, and they sign a signature box either with their finger on a mobile device or the mouse of their computer. That signature will map to all the documents in the system so that everything is signed and everything is provided to the applicant. Hugh: Where I was headed with that, and I thank you for the clarification on the language, where I was headed with that is I would say I have my ten volunteers and I need to run them through the process. Would you suggest to me that I do it on myself as well? Steve: Well, somebody should run one on you. But if you want to at least have something in the “file,” whether it be a digital file or a file folder in a lockable filing cabinet, having your own in there is a good idea, especially to report to the board that if you are the executive director, it started with you. Sometimes you can be surprised on what you might see on your own. We had an executive director in Minnesota who had a small nonprofit. I think it was five or ten volunteers based on what he told me over the phone. This was quite a few years ago. When I was small enough and able to see the background checks coming in on a regular basis, I pulled it open and said, “Oh, I talked to that gentleman on the phone.” He signed up and ran his background check; he had three pages of felonies on his own. He never ran another background check with us. I think he was curious as to if his own background check would come up and expose him as a customer. There was nothing I could do to share it with the greater group of that organization. There is a lot of risk out there. It can start with that executive director. I don't think the executive director should be the one running the background check; it should be pushed by the board that the executive director have a background check. Hugh: Absolutely. Nobody should be exempt from it. Everybody should go through it. The founder, the executive director. Steve: Everybody. Hugh: Great. We are almost halfway through this interview. Russell, I'm sure that you have formulated a great question for our guest. Russell: As I was saying earlier, a lot of people don't know what they don't know. I think it starts with going from a place of what do I know, what have I been told, what don't I know, and where did the information I get come from? How do I know what I know? I think my first question would be all quality information. How can you get quality information to make sure that what you're hearing can be verified? Steve: That is a really good question. There are a lot of background screening companies in the U.S, thousands really. Everybody approaches business differently. Some are very small, that concept of working out of your garage, and they might not have a website. They might be in it just for the profit. There are lots of different data points to put together a good background check. The problem I see with the nonprofit side is they are learning on these database products to be the be-all end-all product because it's fast and it's inexpensive. They think because somebody might be calling it a national search that it truly is. But it isn't. I like to think of the database searches as a net. If you can picture the map of the United States and now you're casting this net across the United States, what is the net made up of? Holes strung together is the way I'd like to put it. I want you to remember that while it might be national—we call it multi-state—there are going to be holes. In some areas of this net there will be tears and huge holes versus tightly knit holes in other areas. You have this product that a lot of the nonprofits like to order because they think it's national, they think it's an easy, inexpensive way to launch into the background checks, and they don't realize the risks that are still going to be there. They are not conducting what we call a best-in-class background check. Nonprofits have to be careful. To answer your question about data, we take three different aggregation data points from the database and merge them together, eliminating the duplicate points. Other companies will buy data from these aggregate groups of data, and they will hang it on their own internal servers and ping against that data for months before they refresh it. That's how you get the $2 background checks for some of these large nonprofits. I'm not saying everybody does it, but in order to reduce the cost to meet what an expectation might be for a nonprofit, which is cheap, these organizations are going to give you bad and old data. We refresh our data every week, in some cases like the sex offender registries, for some every two weeks. But the oldest refresh we have is 30 days for our entire database. Again, it's a merge of three different data points coming together. We didn't get into this business primarily to make a profit; we got into this business to protect those who need to be protected. Russell: That's it. It's setting that intention right up front. When you talk to people, you have to set an intention up front about what it is you're doing. When you talk to people who might be new that we need to help, but understand we are going to be looking into some things, asking you questions for the sake of transparency, and direct about it. Who, what, when, where, why, and how? We keep our questions as open in that way as we can so that we get some meaningful information. I think that people who have things to hide may balk a little bit at this directness. Somebody is fidgeting, and they are talking about how much time this is taking, why you need to know that. In my head, that will be a red flag. What say you? Steve: A hidden benefit of the background check implementation is the bad ones kind of leave in the guise of night. They don't come back tomorrow. You actually said, “Hey, we take it seriously, we are going to have a consent form for you to sign. We will call your references. We will check in on who you say you are.” That's another thing, references. If you are not calling references, whether you outsource it to an organization, I recommend doing it internally so you can hear the nuance of the phone, the pregnant pauses of someone being asked, “Is this somebody you would bring back into your organization if you could?” and they go, “Hmm, well, I don't know about that.” If you outsource that, it's hard for somebody to put that into words on a report. I recommend if you have the time to do it yourself. If you have the money, you can outsource it. References are just as important as the background check. The background checks of course can be criminal. They can also verify your resume, education, employment. It's not always just looking at their criminal records, but making sure they are who they say they are. Hugh: While you are on that track, what kinds of background checks are there? Go over that again. Steve: There are lots of different types of background checks. We want to get nonprofit organizations to stop thinking about using the database just for looking for a criminal or a sex offender. Because of the analogy I used with the net with all the larger holes and tears, you need to look at each applicant holistically. Instead of where your organization is serving or based and the geography and how that might look in a database search, you need to look at the applicant. John could be a resident of one place for his whole life, and Mary has lived in seven different places in seven years. Mary, you are going to have to do more on because there are possibilities that the database has missed where Mary lives, they weren't up to date, and you are going to add a county courthouse search or a statewide repository search if it exists, like it does in Colorado. Other states have that, too. You are going to need to start with a foundation and then lay additional due diligence on top of that to get a good profile for each applicant instead of one size fits all. The criminal side, you break out into two different things. We have state and local crimes that you find in a database. You have the sex offender crimes that are in the sex offender registry. Then you will have crimes against the federal government or federal-related crimes. A lot of people think of these as the white-collar crimes, the Bernie Madoffs or the Martha Stewart crime where she got involved in the stocks. Yes, but inter-state kidnapping is also a federal crime. Money laundering and profiteering is a federal crime. Any building on federal lands. A lot of organizations and companies lately neglect ordering a federal criminal search. That can come back to bite them if they don't search it. There are a lot of other things, too. Motor vehicle searches, I mentioned. Credit reports we can do. You can do the education verification. International criminal and credit. Motor vehicles. We have 165 different services available to any organization, and most organizations look at about five. Russell:What are some of the training opportunities? Part of the challenge is training nonprofit leaders or other people about what the benefits are and the dangers of neglecting to do due diligence. In other words, what are the things that you're doing to assist people to understand the value of it so that they actually have this awareness? It's one thing to bring somebody in. Somebody could slide under the radar after you have done your search. Maybe something changes. People need to have an idea of what sort of things they need to look out for to make sure that everything is good. What training do you folks give nonprofits an opportunity to take advantage of so that they have a better sense of when they may need some help digging into something? Steve: We actually have a very specific training program that I actually founded. It's called Safeguard from Abuse. With a focus on the vulnerable populations that a lot of nonprofits focus their energy into those communities, it is a 75-minute online and also on a DVD training program with a certificate of understanding for those that pass the test on all of the different types of abuse, not just the sexual abuse, but neglect, physical, and emotional abuse, diving deep into what they are, diving deep into how to recognize when a child is being abused. So many organizations have that fear of having a sexual predator in their midst, so we do focus more time and attention in their personality traits, their grooming behaviors, understanding the personality of that pedophile. The most important thing is raising the awareness overall through the training, but empowering each person who goes through the video to be a mandated reporter and to understand that they can't help if they put their head in the sand. They have to be empowered to report, and they have to understand how to do so is very important. The awareness training is important. My example that I like to use is Russell, you want to buy a new car. You have a brand of car in mind, and you're getting in that car and heading down the road. All of a sudden, you start to see that car everywhere. It's now in your awareness. It's always been there, just like the characteristics of people who harm kids. They're still doing it in front of us; we're just not aware of it. We didn't raise our awareness level high enough to see what's always been there but invisible to the eye. It's really what we focus on is what we see. What we focus on we become as well. We want to make sure that we can train enough people to end child abuse, or at least if we can save one child, it's all worth it. Russell: Every time you buy a new car, everybody buys the same make, model, and color that very same day. I was thinking about all of these things. There are people who are listening to this, and they may be leaning back in their chairs thinking, No, I never did any of this stuff up front. Now I have 60 people. How do I know that I don't have somebody like this in my midst right now? Is there some type of organizational audit or assessment that you can do? Steve: We can definitely help. What you're saying is I gotta go retro. I have to go back to day one, and anybody who is still with me, screen them. That seems like an invasion maybe, or a daunting task, or maybe you're just thinking, I'll start with the next person. Now you will set yourself up for some difficulties being fair and equitable. If it's just Susan who just walked in the door but you did not go back five years ago and do this, once you implement the strategy, you have to implement it at any level and go back and do everybody. Starting top down is a good approach. Start at the top, and push down through the hierarchy of individuals in your organization. It's about resetting the reason for why you're doing it. You are resetting the fact that you have this new program that you're implementing. Our insurance company wants us to do it. Most insurance companies want you to do it anyway. If you have to put it on something else, you can just say it's a new requirement. It could be just your organization's requirement. Once it's a new requirement, it's a requirement. Everybody has to do it. Russell: Having everybody do it ensures that you don't have somebody out there who wants to take you to court saying they're being singled out because I'm a woman or I'm black or I'm over 50, or just anything they can pull out to say why it doesn't apply. We talked about that comfort level that people have. I don't want to offend or put anybody out. How do you help people who decide to do something like that do it in the face of the apprehension that they may have and the fear of offending somebody, implementing it seamlessly? What are some of the things you do to help people through that? Steve: That's a good question. We help organizations put together a background screening policy. It's all about policies. Sometimes you might have a policy- With those who work with kids, you might have a child protection policy, for example. But even in that child protection policy, they don't talk about background checks. So we need to weave in another layer of policy, and that is who do we screen, why do we screen them, how often do we screen them, and what do we order? Really it comes down to being comfortable enough with your organization and communicating that you do have policies. It's part of your mission and vision, wherever it is that it fits in, to make it that important. You can make it unimportant and be at risk and have everyone at risk, or you can make it important and be an advocate for safety and make your organization. It's all about preserving that organization. Amp up your image; it will help you and the community. Hugh: Both of you are talking about people not knowing what they don't know. There is a side that people are so close to it, you're so involved in it, that you're so blind to it because you are focusing on the day-to-day and the relationships. You're blind to all of the liabilities. Having someone like you that is skilled to discuss policy procedure with I think is really a high benefit. Is that part of your service that you offer? Steve: We offer that at no charge. Phone call conversations, any time someone wants to talk to me. It's very individual. Each organization is very individual, and I can't just say, Here is a template. We like to discuss what your organization looks like, the different roles and responsibilities you might have, the silos you may have, the offshoots of your organization you may have, and drill down. Like I mentioned, it's not a one-size-fits-all. Based on roles and responsibilities, you will be ordering different types of services. You may order motor vehicle for one, you may need to look at a credit report for one, but it won't be for all. We want to make sure that you understand that as an organization, what's available first of all, why you should order it, and then implement it. Now it's part of your policy manual, and now it can be handed off if you were to leave the organization. If you are in charge of this role, and now you are leaving or retiring to go do something else, you can now hand it off to someone else and they won't have to reinvent the wheel. It's important to do it on the front end, but we'll help. Hugh: Your link for people to find you is SecureSearch.com? Steve: It's actually not. I wish I had that. It's SecureSearchPro.com. Hugh: That's better. Steve: We have SafeguardfromAbuse.com. Hugh: You have been talking about databases, and people can do a database search. Say more about that for people who don't know what you mean by “database.” I think of a database as where I keep my CRM, where I keep my contacts. Say more about that and why it doesn't really cut the mustard. Steve: Okay. A lot of people think that there is one central place to go to do a background check in the United States. Just go to the FBI. They think there is something in some place to go. That is a fallacy. We are a disparate country. Our systems do not communicate with each other. What you have in Colorado doesn't communicate with what's in Virginia with what's in Florida, even though we think that's the case. Another fallacy is that a social security number is all you need to find a criminal record. We don't find any criminal records using a social security number. That's a myth. We use the social security number to find out what the person might be: what names they have used, what addresses they may have used, information sources. The databases, because we have this disparate system where counties don't communicate with states sometimes and counties don't even communicate with each other, all of these groups work in silos. Their information or their data is also stuck in that silo. You have to search that silo to find that information. In some cases, these silos of information raise their hands and say they will share. There are companies called data aggregators to say, I will pull from this county, I will pull from that county, and this department of corrections wants to give me that information. They compile it all together. They go out to my industry and say, “Do you want to buy my information?” I was talking about having three of these aggregators that I purchase information from and weave it all together because they will miss some in one and miss some in another and I am hoping I can fill in some of the gaps. This is not 100%. Again, it's that net with holes. It's as good as it gets. We search over a billion records, but there are so many holes and gaps in this data. That is where the database comes in; it's a base of data. There will be holes that you can't rely on as your only search. We can consult on the best approach. The best approach is you have to look at three different things. First, your due diligence, why you do what you do, why you want to screen in the first place. Do you want to protect the vulnerable? Is it because your insurance company made you do it? I don't care what it is. We have to understand what the impetus of your diligence is. Then we need to look at your organizational budget and say what budget dollars do you have to work with. Do you need to go find more budget dollars from another bucket in order to cover something like this? You want to implement it as soon as possible. The third is your comfort for risk, or your risk tolerance. That is already comfortable with your organization name being in a newspaper because you didn't do a background check, and now you brought in a pedophile into your organization. Or does that make you cringe and keep you awake at night? What does your legal counsel say? What does your insurance company say? We need to bring those three things together and create a unique, sustainable program for your organization. That may be very different from the organization I talk to tomorrow. That's okay. It's unique to you and sustainable and something you're comfortable with and can move forward with in your organization. A long answer for a simple question. Hugh: It's a complex question, a complex situation. I have met people who think they can just Google somebody's name and find out all kinds of things. What's the fallacy in that strategy? Steve: Did you have consent to do it, first of all? Every applicant has their legal rights. They have to provide you consent to really do a background check on them, especially if you want to use it. If you just want to be the armchair neighbor and check in on a neighbor, you have the legal right to do so. If you are going to bring this individual on board and have them fill out paperwork to be a volunteer or member of the staff, you have to get their consent. You can't just go to Google. The data out there is only as good as the data out there. If you're not buying it and it's free, there is a reason it's free. If you're spending $59.99 to get the rest of the report, they gave you a little bit, and the rest of it is behind the scenes, that is just database information, and that is way more than you ever need to pay. You need to do a database search for only $15. It's something you need, and something you need to build on, so you want to make sure you make it affordable on the database side so you can grow it and add the county courthouse searches as necessary. Russell: There are some things out there that are robust. I have probably used some of the things as a revenue agent for IRS. It's not off the shelf, and it's not cheap by any means, but it's good stuff. It's important to do that. You get what you pay for. A lot of these databases that you describe pop up if you do an online directory search for the Yellow Pages, or something like that. These things get offered to you all the time. Steve: It's the free data available to everyone that they compile. Not everything is going to be in there as I mentioned. It will be fraught with holes. They make it look good. They put a shiny website together, and you see moving parts. It's like they are searching as deep as they can go, and I will get every tidbit of information I need in seconds on one of these companies. You have to be careful with what you do. Everything needs to be validated at the local level. Anything from the database, any red flag, has to be validated at the court or the point of origin of the information to be accurate; otherwise, you are not supposed to see it anyway. That is why you want to work with a consumer reporting agency. SecureSearch is a consumer reporting agency. We are a member of concern consuming reporter agency, making sure we do it the right way and making sure we do validate everything at the local level before you as the customer gets to see that information. Hugh: We are coming to the last part of our interview, Steve. SecureSearchPro.com is where people can find out more. What is the differentiator? What makes this business different? You mentioned there are lots of others out there. Why are you different from them? Steve: That's a good question. The first thing is the information we have to share with you is through years of experience. We have veterans in the industry on staff who run our customer service department, who run our operations, and who run the executive office. That's number one, lots of experience. Two is we have a heart for the nonprofit sector because we understand you are wearing many hats. You don't have time, and you may not have the skillsets. You can feel comfortable with us. We are going to answer the phone. We will talk to you. You won't be alone in this process. We will be there to answer any questions you may have throughout the process, and you will have someone you can work with, whether it be me, you can always work with me directly, or anyone on my staff. We also don't have a single salesperson on staff, so you will never be “sold” anything. We only have consultants, so we will be asking you questions and making you recommendations for best practices. You won't hear from us five million times; we won't pound you until you buy. We wait to hear from you again if you'd like to do this with us. That is what makes us different. We have a heart for the nonprofit, the integrity of our data we are purchasing, and the integrity of the system we have and the compliance of our system and processes is what set us apart. Hugh: That's strong. It sounds like this service is incredibly expensive, thousands of dollars, to do a background check. Is that true? Steve: No, that's actually very far from true. Depends on the organization you're working with. Our pricing model is geared toward the nonprofit sector, so we are extremely affordable. We actually have scalable pricing for those who have high volume discount programs. A background check, I would say that a good budget, if you want to do it right, for the criminal and sex offender and fill in all the gaps, is budget for $50 a person. It doesn't mean it will always cost $50 a person; it may cost $15 for some, $22 for another, or $85 for another. It could be all over the board. But I would budget that to make sure you have enough allocated funds for a good solid program. A lot of people are going to ask if they need to do background checks through the fingerprint process, too. No, you don't. You can get good information that is disposition-based. Disposition is what happened in court, information from a secure search without ever having to do fingerprints. If you are getting government funding or state funding, they may make it mandatory, so you have to do it. But we can still make sure that the fingerprint arrest record—and that's all it is, an arrest information source with biometrics, and not everybody gets fingerprinted when they get arrested—that the courts dismissed it or said it was a guilty verdict and enhance the arrest record database you search. Hugh: Good. Thank you for that complete answer. This has been a very informative interview, and I'm sitting here thinking about all the organizations that I know about that have fallen short. We are going to make sure we will put a recommendation in our work that they do this early on. I think it's that important. As we are tying up this really good interview—Steve, thank you for the time today. It's been exceptional—what impression, what challenge, what thought do you want to leave in people's minds? Steve: I guess my question is: What image do you have of your own organization? How do you look at your own organization? Do your process and your people align with it? If you are worried about that and you want to lower your risk and your liabilities as an organization and maintain the image you want to have of your own organization, it doesn't cost a lot of money, it doesn't take a lot of time, you don't have to learn how to do it. We do everything for you. Just reach out to us. There is no charge to sign up or for a free consultation. Talk to one of our advocates. We're here to help; we're not here to sell. We hope to hear from you. It's something you should definitely take a look at. If you're doing the background checks now, we can talk about if you are doing them the right way. If you're not doing them, we can help you along the path. Hugh: Russell, thanks again for being here and being by my side. Steve, thank you for a wonderful interview. Thanks everyone for listening. Steve: Thank you very much. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to all of our Becoming Your Best podcast listeners wherever you might be in the world today. This is your host Steve Shallenberger. And we have a tremendously interesting guest today. Our guest is a successful business leader and has influenced many many people for good. Welcome to our show today, Tim Sanders. Tim: Hey great to be with you Steve. Steve: I've been looking forward to this. Tim: Me too. Steve: Well, good. All right. Now, before we get started, I'd like to tell you a little about Tim's background. He spent his early career on the cutting edge of innovation and change. He was an early stage member of Mark Cuban's Broadcast.com, which had the largest opening day IPO in history. After Yahoo acquired the company, Tim was tapped to lead their Value Lab, and by 2001 he rose to a Chief Solutions Officer. And today he's one of the top-rated speakers on the lecture circuit. Tim is also the author of four books including The New York Times best seller "Love is the Killer App," which is an awesome book, "How to Win Business and Influence Friends," I really enjoyed reading that. Tim's book has been featured in Fast Company, USA Today, The New York Times, Boston Globe, and so on. He is a master storyteller who offers his listeners actionable takeaways that produce results right away. So I have been looking forward to having Tim here in our interview today. And to get going, Tim, can you tell our listeners maybe a little about your background, your story? What was it like growing up? And maybe some experiences that helped you see that you could be successful? Tim: Thank you. I grew up in Clovis, New Mexico. It's a farming community just east of the West Texas border. I'm sorry, just west of the...West Texas border. And I was raised by my grandmother. I was a special education student from second to fifth grade, which really, you know, taught me a lot of things. It taught me how to bounce back. That's for sure. Taught me how to fit in when people didn't understand who I was. But most importantly, my childhood taught me that anything is possible if I'm willing to put the preparation work in and seize the opportunity. In my adult life I had a period of time, say 15 years or so, where I was gainfully employed and successful to some degree but just not laser-focused on what mattered. You might say I was in a mediocrity trap. In 1997, I went to work for Mark Cuban about a year after I had gotten out of that trap and had a real paradigm shift about what it was gonna take for me to be successful for my family. When I worked for Mark Cuban you can imagine 1997, the dawn of the internet explosion. It was such a breathtaking opportunity Steve. But I remember those times mostly as being a student of the game. Something I learned from him. And I was a voracious book reader. I was a mentor to anybody I did business with. And by 2001 after he'd sold the company to Yahoo, I became Yahoo's Chief Solutions Officer right after the dot-com crash of 2000. So my team and I went out to rebuild hundreds of millions of dollars of lost business because all of those companies, like eToys, our big advertisers, had gone caput. And through those experiences, I built up a perspective that if we commit ourselves to lifelong learning, and we lead with love in our hearts for other people and expect nothing in return other than that they improve and pay it forward, you can accomplish anything in this world we live in. Steve: Wow, what a rich background and then to be able to take that background and, like, Clovis, New Mexico? You mean you can be successful if you were born in Clovis, New Mexico? Tim: I'll tell you something. Let me tell you something about Clovis, New Mexico. Little town, 30,000 people. I was on the debate team in high school, Steve. And we wanted to be nationally ranked. Now, it was a real kind of a pork chop circuit, right. There was the Las Cruces tournament, the El Paso tournament, the Odessa tournament. We had to get in our cars and drive over two hours to Lubbock, Texas, to go to a decent library to research for our debate. And we had to compete with, you know, Houston's Bellaire and Dallas' St. Marks and all these great folks in New Mexico, and all the big schools from Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But I'll tell you something, my senior year, we won state championship, and we went to the national tournament, and we didn't have nearly the resources of anybody we competed with. But man, I gotta tell you, and I thank my coach for this, we had heart. Steve: Wow! Well, I'll tell you I can attest that people from the salt of the earth communities like this can have a big difference in the world. Tim: Yeah. And I think too Steve, is that there's something in our values raised in that environment that makes us really good connectors. And I also think it makes us hungrier to find some way to get back that edge. And to look for those invisible resources that are out there, like knowledge that can really give us a leg up. And it makes us wanna give back too when we become successful, you know, there's a natural, very deep set generosity. And I gotta tell you, I come from it very honestly. I mean, the patriarch of our family is my great-grandfather the late great Tommy King. And he was one of the founders of Clovis when it organized into a city back around it, you know, after the Great Depression. And he was a successful farmer. And one of the things he did before the Dust Bowl era, right before it, was he engaged with some agricultural technologist and became the first farmer in that part of the country to use a circular farming techniques, which when the Dust Bowl hit, helped his farms survive if not thrive while others withered away. And in our family, one of the most poignant stories about Tommy was how much he gave back to other farmers who were in crisis. The ones that bullheaded, they wouldn't try circular farming knowing that the science said there was something coming in a drought. He was happy to give them microloans. He never collected on them. He would just tell people, "When this happens in the future, you pay it forward." And I believe that his philosophy really represented, you know, small town America. Steve: Oh, that's a great story. And then to actually go from being a special ed student to being successful, that's got to give hope to special ed students anywhere because, you know, they're behind a gun. And so, is there hope? I mean, like, can we make it? Tim: It's tough. I mean, you know, more background here. So my grandmother raised me because my mother abandoned me when I was in four. And it manifest into tremendous depression when I was a little kid. And it exhibited itself in discipline issues. And during those days, Steve, they really didn't have much to do with a kid, you know, when you're seven. So, all they really can do is put you in special education. And that experience was really challenging because it's not just that you're taken out of school, that you're ostracized. And when you go to church you're treated differently because, you know, you go to the other school. And I picked up the nickname Shortbus, and I really didn't shake that nickname till junior high. But I think the thing that I got out of the whole situation is when they put me back into the general population in the sixth grade. I had to deal with bullies for the first time. You know, when you're different you're gonna deal with bullies. For parents, this is a great challenge when a child is singled out into a program like special ed or frankly like gifted for that matter. And I'll tell you, I think my point of view about how I dealt with that traumatic sixth and seventh-grade year had to do with how I felt about love. I'll give you a classic story. So, in the seventh grade, the day that you wear your nice clothes and your nice white shirt for the picture, you know, for the yearbook? Steve: Yup. Tim: I went in and this bully who went to church with us demanded my lunch money and I hesitated. So he punched me right in the nose and I bled all over my shirt. Not gory but I bled on my shirt. It ruined me for the picture that day. When Billy, my grandmother, came to pick me up, I thought she was gonna just, you know, have it out with that boy's mom, or at least give him a good talking to. So when Billy and I are sitting in the vice principal's office and we're alone for a second, she turns to me and she looks at me and she says, "You know the problem here is that you don't love those boys enough." I remember looking at her and I point at my shirt and I said, "What do you mean? He's mean. He's a mean boy." And she said, "In our family, you don't love people because of who they are. You love people because of who we are." And she goes, "That's gonna go a long way with you fitting in at the school." And so she said I should invite him over after church. Because she believed that people were inherently good and when they were mean, or when they were bad, there was something about the story that you don't know. And so he came over after church and stole some of my stuff and still kind of picked on me but he didn't punch me in the nose. And then I guess he felt the duty to invite me over to his house a few weeks later on the other side of the tracks where he lived. And when I visited his home that Sunday afternoon, I realized why he was a bully. His father, a drunk, swore at him coming in through the front door. His older brother whipped him with what, like a horse bridle, in front of me. Later, and I realized that this guy had been going through a lot more than I was. And that he was manifesting it. He was a big guy. He was manifesting it by picking on the only thing that he could get away with picking on, that's a little guy called Shortbus. And once I had that breakthrough, Steve, it really changed the way I thought about people. I truly began to understand that if we give someone our love and we care about them, whether it's on a personal level like this or on a professional level like say someone that I manage, you'd be surprised how many of their problems go away. And how you can convert a bully into a blocker. And I gotta say, that guy and I became good friends. And a little bit more than four years later, he put up posters for me when I successfully ran for senior class president and won. And I realized that for the rest of my life, I'm gonna go out into the market and love people because of who I am, and it's very easy to find things about them that are incredibly easy to love. And that I'm assuming when people don't give back, when they don't do the right thing, when they're mean spirited. I'm assuming that there's something about their story or struggle that I have no knowledge of. And it's made me a much deeper listener and a much more curious person in a good way. Steve: Well, that's a fantastic experience and thank you for sharing it. How grateful are we for the people in our backgrounds that help us grow and develop and overcome maybe some of the deficiencies that we might have that we may or even may not be aware of, that help us start becoming what we're capable of becoming. So that's really an inspirational story. And then love is so powerful and we may talk about it more after our interview but after...well, I was going through my college career I sold books back East. And one of the great books that I read was "The Greatest Salesman in the World", "About the Scrolls," and "I Will Greet This Day With Love In My Heart," and "How Will I Greet Those That Treat Me Poorly Love." And, oh, my goodness, you just fill this tremendous power that comes from it. So I'm so glad you shared that. Tim: Well, thank you. And I will tell you, there's real science or at least there is real psychological research behind this. And if you think about it, this is a manifestation of Maslow's hierarchy, right? Abraham Maslow studied something he called B-love, that is being love. That is a detached form of caring about another person, like I care about another person whether or not you care about me. I care about that person solely because I wanna help that person grow. I don't care about that person because I need a new friend. D-love, Maslow brought about this, a deficiency based love, says, "I need to be loved." So everything I do from being friendly to making, you know, advances, whatever you do to try to go out and help people, you're doing it to solve one of your problems. So, next we'll talk about the idea that when we feel fulfilled in terms of how much we think we're cared about, and that the way we think about love and other people, again, whether it's personal or professional, when we do that, we are making the leap to becoming like self-actualized, if you will. And that it's the most powerful way to think about loving other people because there's no anxiety in those relationships because you're not expecting anything in return. And that's what makes them so beautiful. And I found in my business life, that as a leader, as a manager, as a colleague, this works even more. Because, you know, we need people to encourage us at work. We need people to care about us as customers. And I believe too many people are just traders, transactionalists, and don't bring that Maslovian, you know, B-love to work every day. Steve: Okay. All right. Well, that's a powerful point of view and force in our work lives. Now talking about how to be successful in what we do in business, in our work, and in life generally, it does take work and effort and doing certain things that make a difference. So you shared earlier, that as we visited, that you had made a discovery in your mid-30s that led to ten promotions and helped you achieve a strong financial position and financial security. Can you talk a little about that? What was that? Tim: So this is like 1996, 1997. I had been coming back into my studentship, and I had gone from just need to know in terms of learning to being a voracious reader of books. And not just on stuff that mattered to my current job but anything that was adjacent to it. Anything that I thought was interesting to know in the future. I was at a point Steve, where I would read a book a week. I would burn through these books. I'm not talking novels either I'm talking about complex books in some situations. And what happened was I began to talk about different things with clients. So when I go to work for Cuban, I had this mentality kind of fed by Leo Buscaglia as love on one hand and Steven Covey on the other. I had this mentality that I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna promote other people's success during a time of great change. Because you know the internet was disrupting everything. So I worked a lot with the retailers. So I would go out and work with Neiman Marcus or Victoria's Secret or whomever. And I took it upon myself to learn everything I could about their business future and their business challenges, and then share that with them. And that's where I had the big aha. That if my business practice was to aggregate my intangibles, my knowledge, my network of relationships, my ability to care about people. If I build those up so I can give them away, and systematically help other people make the leap without expecting anything in return, that faith would repay me with endless referrals, a powerful brand, and a magnetic value proposition inside my company. Because I make decisions with Mark, I start to adopt the style. I was a sales person of service out in the community. We accomplished a lot of great things. He sells the company two years later to Yahoo if you remember back in those days. When I transfer out to the West Coast at Yahoo, I've really refined the system of building relationships by sharing my knowledge, and my network, and my compassion in every interaction. And it was like the doors swung wide open. Because now it's 2000, now it's right after the dot-com crash. This idea about helping people finds success during times of great change and expecting nothing in return. Boy, it worked crazy good in Silicon Valley and that's when I begin to train the young Yahoos on this philosophy and this set of values. And that's where I begin to write down the steps I was taking to really document you know how I read books and how I chose books, and why I read books instead of articles, and what I talked about when I was networking. And that's where "Love is The Killer App" came from a few years later. And since then, you know 15 years, I've been traveling around the world meeting people, comparing notes and really building upon that philosophy. Steve: Oh, that's great. And as we've talked about with our listeners the twelve principles of highly successful leaders, these are the things that are present across the board for high achievers. Also they were able to sustain, really, success over a long period of time, both personally and professionally. And one of those was applying the power of knowledge. In other words, gaining knowledge in the first place, and one of the primary ways is being a reader. And so this is a great reminder to every one of us listening here today of the power of reading good books on a regular basis because they're just totally stimulating, aren't they? They just fire... Tim: They are. Steve: ...your mind. Tim: And what I like about books is that books require you to take a deep dive into usually a narrow subject. And you don't just learn a couple of data points and one story, you learn a construct. It's got a thesis, and it's got supporting anecdotes, and it usually has research and it's really meaty. And you can deeply understand the topic so you can give it away, right? So the twist here Steve, is read good books but have a mix. And what I say about this is every third book you read, read for someone else's benefit. I call it prescriptive reading. Think about what... Steve: What's an example of that? Tim: Yeah. Think about information challenges that the people have and go study on their behalf because talk about expanding your resume. Steve: Right. It gives you a whole different perspective to maybe a different discipline. Tim: Absolutely. That's made a big difference for me. And that was another part of my turnaround in the late 1990s that really shifted me away from the idea that, you know, I read books to help myself. No, I read books to help the world, and sometimes it helped me too. And that philosophy will keep you from being too laser-focused on what's in front of you and not focused enough on what's coming in the future. Steve: Okay, great. That's a powerful influence on our success. And you told this wonderful experience that you had personally, this story about the bully and your grandmother saying, "Listen, we need to love him." Tim: That's right. Steve: See things from a different perspective. So you must have learned, Tim, somewhere along the line that love can be applied across the board, in business and as an entrepreneur. What have you found? Have you been able to make the jump of using that in your personal life to a professional life, and what's the experience? Tim: Yeah. I've made it my professional strategy, you know, for the last 20 years or so. I mean, when I say love in a professional sense, Steve, I mean, that I have a set of emotions about you. I care and I am now committed to promote your success by sharing my intangibles with you, my knowledge, my network, my compassion. I want you to think about, for those of you listening, I want you to think about the mentor in your life who's made the most difference to you. There's maybe one. There's maybe two. Maybe some of you might have three, but there's maybe one, right? And I want you to really think about how that person felt about you. And I want you to think about how open that person was to loving someone like you, not as a family but just as a person maybe at work or just a person maybe they did business with. I'm talking about unleashing the capacity to do this every day. I developed strong emotional aspect for almost every single person I do business with, and I don't make them earn it, Steve. It happens quick. Maybe I start out by liking him and I look for things that other people don't look for. I wanna hear their story so I can admire their values and understand their point of view. I find things that are familiar about them. I experience their passion so I can really understand what makes them a unique person. I think our capacity to care about people that work quickly and then maintain that over time. I think that is oxygen for leadership. Steve: Absolutely. That's so powerful. I mentioned the research that we've done for 40 years and these principles that are present, you're doing them? Tim: Well, you know, we're thinking alike buddy. Steve: We are thinking alike. I mean, one of those was living the golden rule, really exceptional leaders. I mean, you can have leaders that are good in different contexts but when you put these together, and exceptional leaders also one that really cares about people. And this is manifest in how they treat others, how they learn about others so that they can bring the best out within others. And this is what starts creating excellence, so great going on this. Tim: Thank you. Thank you so much, man. Steve: And by the way, Tim's book "Love is The Killer App." He talks about these three things, knowledge, networking, and compassion. Would you mind touching on the compassion part a little bit? And I'd like to go back to the networking because you said one thing that is important, and that is how a mentor maybe ought to perceive others with this love, learning what their story is? How do you bring out the best? And you'll find mentors that have done this the same way for you. So, how can you be a good mentor? That's one question. And then we'll hit this other one before we're done. Tim: Absolutely. So, the best way to be a mentor is to remember that the mentor is usually a benefactor, a teacher of sorts. And their job is to give the hero a gift that will enable the hero to make it to the next stage of her journey. When you think about Homer's Odyssey, with the character mentor, when you think about the archetype of mentorship stories in very modern culture, like, say, Star Wars, with, you know, Yoda, or with Karate Kid in Miyagi, that's what it's all about. It's about finding that person that has heroic qualities. That's going somewhere a little too fast. You've got a gift for them, maybe it's your personal experience. You've been where they've been. You have knowledge that they need and you give it to them. You expect nothing in return but that they apply that knowledge and learn and improve. All the mentors, they gain enthusiasm from the student learning. And when they need to, they go beyond just sharing information and perhaps make vital connections to create alliances, to help that hero deal with upcoming adversity. As a mentor I just want you to think a little bit like Yoda. And I want you to not really think so much like a person who's like a fire hose of information, a person who's gonna "Take somebody under their wing." I think you need to think about your role very transitionally. But most importantly, you need to expect nothing in return other than that they hero seizes the opportunity, right? I think that is what changes the game. And by the way, you know, I know you talk a lot about how to be successful over a long period of time. My philosophy that we give without expectation, this is not lip service, Steve. I literally expect them to pay it forward but I don't expect them to pay it back. And I'm telling you that is liberating, because when I meet leaders who were generous for years and years and years and then they "Burned out." This is why they got burned out. Because just enough people didn't pay them back or give them credit or whatever their reciprocity was supposed to be and they were disappointed. And I call it ego economics. And it sets in on a lot of people in their career. Super generous in their 30s, a little bit jaded in their 40s, super protected in their 50s. I'm 55 years old, I've never been more generous because I'm not disappointed in people. And I think that's what comes with being detached about what you get back. Steve: Oh, great. You know that's great. I think even the savior of mankind, Jesus Christ, if you...regardless of what you believe, as it was described when he healed the lepers, and he had one return and thanked him. Nine did not. And if your expectation is that people are gonna thank you, you're probably gonna be somewhat disappointed. Tim: Absolutely. You will. Steve: If that's your expectation. Tim: And it's interesting. So, you know, I love that story and I appreciate that example. I think that, for us, the secret to a long-term career is a very flexible perspective. And I think that if we're willing to go against the grain that there's a quid pro quo. I think we really open up our opportunities in life. You just continue to be great until the day we die. Steve: Wonderful. What a refreshing wonderful perspective. I had a friend, Tim, that I had lunch with last week. He is a facilitator for a very successful training company. He has been, really most of his career 30 years, he's gone all over the world. And one of the things he talked about was precisely this, is that his observation is one of the keys for companies to get ahead today to be able to be a best in class, be the best in their industry, is to have active healthy coaching program within the company where people are able to coach each other. And I think it's really these type of qualities you're talking that would help that be successful. Tim: Absolutely. And for leaders, whether it's a small business or an enterprise, you can create a culture of coaching. So even if there's not a funded program per se, it can be the habit inside that organization. So Tom Ward was brought into Barton protective in Atlanta to turn that company around several years ago and he created that culture. He had something called Vision Quest. These values cards everybody carried with them. It was a huge part of the cadence that he had in that company. And the third value was love. "Do you care about me as a person?" He hired based on it. He rewarded based on it. He promoted or did not promote based on it. It made a big deal to how people behaved, because culture at work, culture at work is a conversation that's led by leaders about how we do things here. And that's like software that runs a company, right? So, when you as a leader go to work and say, "We coach other people because of who we are as a company," then the habit sets in. And it's very attractive, Steve, to today's millennial, to have a reputation for a company where we bring each other up as opposed to where we internally compete. So I just want everybody listening to know this is within your power. And you don't need a big checkbook, but you do need to have consistent cadence because you need to manage that conversation about how we do things here successfully. Steve: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am, like, speechless that we are out of time. I can't believe it. Tim: It goes that quick, man. It goes that quick. Steve: It has been fast today. Now, any...what's one last bit of advice, or any tips you would like to give our listeners before we wrap it up today. It's been fun Tim. Tim: Hey, it's been fun buddy. So I'll tell you a place where you can get some stuff about me, but before that, I'll just give you one of my...it's kind of my new little piece of advice I like to give people. And I can't say that I came up with it but I can tell you I'm championing this idea. If you want to be a happier person in, life in traffic and in work, the next time somebody irritates you, does something that is seemingly rude to you, I want you to assume that that person is operating under the best intentions. I want you to assume that you don't know the whole story. Because more often than not, Steve, people are operating under the best intentions. It's just that their needs clash with our needs. And we spend a lot of our time judging those people instead of inquiring about the rest of the story. So like I said, next time somebody cuts you off in traffic, you might wanna consider that she's trying to get somebody to the hospital before you honk your horn and shake your fist. And this goes double for you as business owners and leaders. Steve: Oh, that's great advice. I hope I can get this right. This comes from an article I read yesterday and it really left a deep impression on me. It was given by the leader of a worldwide organization, a humanitarian service organization. And the fellow talked about 50 years ago, he had a mentor. And the mentor said, "Every time you meet somebody, if you'll say to yourself this person is dealing with a serious challenge," he said, "You're gonna be right 50% of the time." Tim: And guess what? Before, when you just reacted and judged that person, you were wrong 50% of the time. Steve: Exactly. Well, he said, "Man I thought my teacher, my professor was a pessimist," he said, "But I have come to learn what wise advice that was." Because indeed as we look around what's going on in the world, it is often true. And I love your comment that half the time we're wrong. So let's give everybody a lot of slack here, right? Tim: On that, you know, again, yeah, let's put our self in another person's shoes. And let's find out more. You can learn and grow so much more. You can expand your thrive so much more. And, again, you can just avoid those regrettable mistakes we all make. Steve: Yup. Well, these are some great things that we can do to make a difference, to lift others, to build others. Tim has done a great job in sharing these. What a tremendous background. And, Tim, if you'll share how our listeners can learn more about what you're doing, and which is tremendous? We'd love to hear about it. Tim: Absolutely. We've set up a special page for your listeners, Steve. It is timsanders.com/byb. That's timsanders.com/byb. I'll have a huge download excerpt of Love is The Killer App for you to read. I'll also have a way you can connect with me on LinkedIn, and find other resources like videos and other such content on my site. Steve: Well, that's terrific. Thank you Tim Sanders for being part of this show today. This has been enlightening. It's been wonderful. Tim: Oh, absolutely. It's been a pleasure Steve. I really enjoyed it. Steve: Well, you bet. We wish you all the best as you're making a difference in the world as well Tim. Tim: Thank you. Steve: And to all of our listeners, never forget, you are creating a ripple that can never be counted for good as we do the right things, good things. And they do make a difference. They lift our own lives and they lift others. And they help us be more successful, happier and have fuller lives. I'm Steve Shellenberger with Becoming Your Best Global Leadership wishing you a great day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Maximize Your Health To Live In Peace and Balance with Ron Williams Welcome to our podcast listeners wherever you may be in the world today. This is Steve Shallenberger, your host. And we are excited to have a wonderful friend and guest with us today, Ron Williams. Welcome, Ron! Ron: Steve, thank you so much, man. I'm glad to be with you. Steve: Now, Ron is a repeat visitor on this podcast series. I met Ron, for the first time, about a year ago and we had Ron talk about fitness. He told us about his background which is an amazing background and to what he's doing today which is helping people all over the world to improve their fitness, their health, and of course, that leads into their happiness. So as we think about The 12 Principles of Highly Successful Leaders, each one of those has a big impact on our life. But they come together to help us be highly successful leaders as we touch not only our own lives have an influence in our relationships but also help contribute to best of class, world class organizations. So one of those principles is to Live In Peace and Balance. Part of that is how do we maximize our own health: our fitness, our mental health, emotional health? Well, it just so happens that that is exactly what Ron does. And when we had the chance to visit a year ago, I mentioned to Ron on the air that I have been trying to lose 10 or 15 pounds for maybe 10 years. I mean, I'm not like really overweight but it's always there. Do you know what I'm talking about? Can anybody that's listening relate to this? And it just kind of rubbed me wrong. I felt like I could do better but it was just really hard to knock it off. And so I asked Ron what his thoughts were, and we talked about a few ideas. At the end of our session, we turned off the equipment and I told him, I said, "Ron, really, I'm serious about this. I'd like to lose 10 or 15 pounds." And Ron said, "Well, I'll tell you what, I'll think about this and I'll call you tomorrow." And so on the phone the next day, he said, "Well, I've been thinking about this and you don't need to lose 10 or 15 pounds." And I threw my hands up and I said, "Yes." And he said, "You need to lose 20 to 25 pounds." And I gulped and I said, "Okay, but I'm going to need your help." Over the next few months, I did indeed lose 25 pounds. It was an amazing process, and the fact is it wasn't a torture for me. It was a positive upbeat process. And one of the things that I found as I went to my periodic checkup with the doctor, he was amazed, first of all, but second, we noticed that my blood pressure had decreased. It wasn't really particularly high before, it was in good shape, but it had gone down. My cholesterol levels had gone down, and this is tracking a 16-year baseline that I had with this particular doctor. And so we had all of this data, and you can push a button right there and it automatically graphs everything. And so you see this graph, and it kind of goes up over the years and all of a sudden, a big drop. Found that my weight had a big drop, and that this was a correlation throughout across the board and that I was much healthier. And so, first of all, I credit Ron. There's a number of things we did, and we're going to have the chance to talk about some of those today. First of all, Ron, I'm just going to invite you to share anything that you would like to about what's been happening in your life over the last year. I have also recommended Ron to a couple of friends and they've had similar experiences. So why don't you bring us up to speed on anything that you would like to talk about, experiences that you're having, what you're seeing? But what would you like to just introduce yourself with? Ron: Awesome. First of all, I want to say thank you, Steve, for all that you have done for my business. One of the things that I found with working with Steve was this is that here I am coaching this guy, thinking,"You know what, I'm doing him a great service," and you know, we lost the 25 pounds, but the little nuggets that I got from him let me know that I needed a coach. And he became my coach. So Steve is my coach today, and I want to appreciate him in what he does. But some of the things that have happened over the year is that I'd been able to put together programs for corporations that have drastically changed the face of you know, the companies, and we've really been enjoying that. And we realized that the principles of what we teach cross boundaries, meaning that we work in several areas: faith, family, fitness, and finances. And with that being said, regardless of what direction you're moving in, there are universal principles that actually cross those boundaries and we call them "Champion Principles," and if you apply it as far as your fitness is concerned, those same principles apply in your business, in your relationships, and across the board, Steve. Steve: Well good. Well, all right. So since we're having this discussion, Ron...and Ron has been a great coach for me, and I'm glad that we've been able to be of help to him. It's been fun to see some of the things that have happened. Ron, together with his wife Tanya, have created a 9-week fitness program that they have shared with a few special clients. Would you mind telling us about that and how it's designed, and what some of the end results that you're having? And the purpose of doing this is that I'd like to have our listeners today have some hope, have some encouragement that if they do certain things, they can get to a better place that makes them feel better, frankly. Ron: Absolutely. This 9-week program is really just a basis and a starting place because our complete desire is to develop lifestyle. And that's what I can see in Steve, is he's developed a lifestyle. You know, he lost the weight, but if you look at him today, he looks better now than he did at the completion of the program. You know why? Because he's continuing in that same lifestyle. And that's what we want to do is to develop these principles so that it becomes a lifestyle to you. But one of the main principles is never to allow yourself to be hungry. It's very important because you send your body a signal of starvation. When many times, what people think is that it's willpower, "If I can starve myself and just have the will to keep going." But that sends a signal to the body of starvation. So eating and making sure you're never hungry is very important. Another principle would be to eat in combinations. Combinations are so important. If your desire is to decrease body fat, you never ever want to eat a carbohydrate by itself. The reason why, I'm going to explain this as short as I can, when you eat a carbohydrate by itself, it spikes the blood glucose level which causes the pancreas to secrete the insulin where the insulin is the culprit of the excess body fat. Your blood sugar level comes down when the insulin is secreted, but it converts those calories into triglycerides which is blood fat, and it pumps it directly into the fat cell. So we want to move away from that. If you don't eat enough calories, then your metabolism slows down, and when you do eat, those calories convert to body fat as well. There are 75 reasons why people are overweight and obese, so we have to find out individually what are yours and which ones belong to you. Reverse that, we can get rid of the body fat. Steve: Okay, all right. Well, that's good advice. Now, the first time we got going on this, Ron explained this to me, the example that he used for me was that if you eat an apple...And you correct any of this if you don't mind, Ron. But if you eat an apple by itself, it's the carbohydrate. It will be digested by the body within 20 minutes. Is that about right? Ron: Absolutely. Steve: But if you'll take that same apple and it goes right to fat, as Ron just explained...On the other hand, if you eat that apple together with the protein together with an essential fatty acid, it takes four hours for the body to digest this and it goes directly to energy. Ron: Wow, that's awesome that you remember that principle. Yes, and this is for those that are trying to decrease body fat. If you're an athlete and you have a high metabolism, this would not apply for you because sometimes you would take in pure sugar to propel you forward in whatever activity you're competing in. But if your desire is to decrease body fat, Steve is 100% spot on. Steve: Okay, and so that was really helpful. So that's a good tip for today is whenever you eat any type of foods, be sure you have at least three things on your plate: a carbohydrate, a protein, and the essential fatty acids. Right? Ron: Absolutely. Beautiful. Steve: Okay, that's if you're trying to, you know, lose body fat. And that's what I was doing, and I still do that by the way. I'm trying to maintain a healthy lifestyle of an ongoing diet that I know I can sustain. People often ask "Well, what are essential fatty acids?" That's raw almonds, avocados. What are some other sources of that, Ron? Ron: Wheat germ oil would be another one. You know, you said avocado. There's a new oil called avocado oil. I love the avocado oil because I can put it in any of my drinks and it's hard to even taste. Steve: Oh, okay. All right, good. So, Ron, what are some problems that you see are common in our society concerning excess body fat? Have we already talked about it? Have we covered that or...? Ron: Well, one problem I see is that we in America are getting fatter. You know, years ago, it was hard to find a person that was more than 300 pounds. Now we're 600, 700, 800, 900, even a thousand pounds. I mean, that was unheard of. The body is so resilient and I don't know how the body can handle that. But we're becoming more overweight and obese because of being sedentary and the other thing is poor eating and some of the things that we're putting in our bodies, and we have to reverse that. That's a real passion of mine. Steve: Okay good, all right. Well, so in terms of the eating do you... I'd like to just get back to that. Are there some things that our listeners can do to have a healthy set of eating habits? Like I know that you sent to me, originally, the Champions' Nutritional Guideline as I recall. Ron: Yes, sir. Steve: I don't know if that addresses it but maybe you could take a minute to just talk about, well, what are types of healthy eating. Ron: Okay, types of healthy eating depending on where you are, if you need to lose 15 pounds, if you need to lose 30 pounds, if you need to lose 70 pounds, or if you're in a class that we considered a hard-loser. A lot of people go on diet, after diet, after diet and what you end up doing is retarding your metabolism. When you retard your metabolism, it doesn't function properly the way it should. And then we have those people out there that are insulin resistant. And all of these create a huge problem. So what you have to do is find out, first of all, which category you're in, and then, you want to start off by detoxifying the body. Because we have what you call "fat-loss resistant chemicals" along with estrogen mimickers, and what estrogen mimickers do is they create excess body fat. And we want to get those toxins out of the body so that the body will function the way it should properly. There's certain things that 200 years ago, we weren't privileged to put in our body, you know, and we want to go back to nature as much as we possibly can. The way God originally created food is the way we should ingest it. God didn't create the Oreo cookie. I know some of you think he did but he really didn't create the Oreo cookie. And what I do is I study out different ingredients, where they came from, how we came about it. And when you look at an Oreo cookie, the center of that Oreo cookie that you take...you open the Oreo cookie and you scrape that white stuff on your teeth. Do you know what that is? It would be equivalent to Crisco oil or that Crisco-thick saturated fat that you're scraping on your teeth that has some sugar and has a little vanilla flavoring. But you're putting that directly into your body and it clogs the arteries and creates excess body fat. Well, if we go back to nature, we'll find out those things that we originally ate were to bring health, life, and longevity. So I would say, first of all, let's learn a little bit about good nutritional value. Eat those things that are very nutritious. Eat organic as you possibly can. Fresh is better than frozen. Frozen is better than canned. And try to get back to nature as much as you possibly can. Steve: Okay. Well, those are some good guidelines. And as I started adopting this, I didn't know what to expect but what I found is that eating, for example, the steamed vegetables were amazing. I don't know how I had missed these before. So yellow squash and steamed broccoli and the cauliflower, and there are so many amazing things that are so good. And I've loved the celery, the carrots. All of these things are so good, and I think they're part of what you're talking about. Ron: Yes. sir. Absolutely. Steve: kay, good. All right, well, let's just wrap up with a couple of thoughts here. What are a few things that we could implement today that would aid in decreasing body fat? Maybe we've already talked about it, but...And then, I'd like to talk about...the final thing is the role of exercise versus diet. Ron: Awesome, awesome. Well, one thing, it's very, very simple but it's huge, and that's change the type of water you drink because water, you know, it's the number one nutritional thing that we can put in our bodies. At one time, you could get water for free, but good quality water you have to pay for. It is very, very important because we're made up of 70% water. In water, just because it's clear does not mean that it's clean. We have different things in our body: fat-loss resistant chemicals along with estrogen mimickers, medication. Some people are taking hormone therapy. All of that gets into the water, and you think it gets cleaned out but it really doesn't. The other things...we have chlorine. Now, an estrogen mimicker, you've probably wondered where do they come from: pesticides, insecticides, herbicides, chlorine, perchlorate, which is jet fuel. All of those have estrogen mimickers. Heart medication, they'll tell you with some heart medication that it creates tenderness of your breast or your chest which become breast, and that's because there's an estrogen mimicker in there. When little girls go through puberty they get that tenderness, and that starting to happen in men along with other excess body fat throughout their bodies. So a good source of water is distilled water that's fortified with the minerals, that's pure water. So that's really important. You can implement that starting today. Steve: Now, let's just hold on a second. Where did they get that? Ron: Distilled water, you can either distill it yourself by having a distiller or you can just go on the Internet and google distilled water in your area or you can find it on the grocery store shelf, distilled water. But fortify it with the minerals. Even on our website, if you're looking for the minerals, they should cost you somewhere between $17 to $19. If it cost you more than that for a 90 day supply, way too expensive. We have some on our website for just $14.95. Steve: Okay, all right. Well, let's take this last question. It's been a good interview and good ideas today and hopefully, some encouragement for people and keeping it simple on a way forward. How big of a role does exercise play? How big of a role does the diet play? Ron: Well, as a competitor, exercise is a very, very small percentage, something like 20%. And the nutritional part of it is somewhere around 75% to 80%. I mean, the nutritional part of it is huge, but the combination together, utterly, utterly important. You can go on a diet by itself and you'll receive some results or you can do exercise by itself and depending on the type of metabolism you have, you may get no results. But the combination together, scientifically, is the best thing you could possibly do. Steve: Okay, and then one last question, Ron. What have you found is the best way to get this distilled water? Do you just buy it from a store around or can you get it in a larger container? What's the easiest way? What have you found the best way to get it? Ron: The best way to get it is have it brought to your house. It's really inexpensive. If you have a store that's fairly close, and as I said just google it, they will actually bring five-gallon containers to your house for less than 60 cents a gallon. If you go to the store, it may cost you $1.25 or maybe even higher. And another thing is distilled water... you can only drink that for two weeks. It'll help detoxify the body but after two weeks, start putting the minerals in. Steve: Okay, yeah. That's a critical part, right? Because it can actually hurt your health if you continue with the distilled water without the minerals. Ron: That's right because water, by itself, it has open bonds, and as we receive rain, it goes through the atmosphere but it collects the asset that's in the atmosphere then it hits the ground. But when that water is completely distilled, it has open bonds. And when it goes to your body, it does the same thing. it collects the dirt and the filth but it also absorbs those minerals and will pull the minerals out of your system. So get the water distilled, two weeks, it'll help you detoxify. But after the two weeks, apply the minerals. Steve: Okay, good stuff. Well, this is been a great interview. Hopefully, you have received a few good ideas. And if this is an area of interest, then certainly, the diet that we've talked about, the way you eat, the number of meals, and then try to have a consistent exercise program to supplement what you're doing. The distilled water... Ron: Absolutely. Steve: With the minerals. Okay, good start. Now, Ron, how can they find out about what you're doing or learn more? Ron: Well, one is we have a YouTube channel which is just, Ron Williams YouTube Channel. The next thing, you could go to our website which is ironchestmaster.com or rwfitness.com. You can find me on the Internet just google Ron Williams. Steve: Okay, good to know. Well, thank you. It's been a great interview. And Ron, I can't wait to see what happens in the next year. Ron: Absolutely. Steve: All right. Well, we're signing off and remember that every one of you is making a difference in your own life. And I'd like to give you hope and encouragement that if you've had 10 or 15 pounds or whatever that you've been trying to lose, you can do it, and it's just a steady effort and you can have fun doing it. It's an adventure. Well, we wish you all the best. This is Steve Shallenberger signing off with Becoming Your Best. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I am very fortunate to present this podcast with Steven Anderson, founder of Integrated Leadership Systems. ILS helps organizations all over North America improve their leadership and team building to be more effective so they can perform at a higher level, and I know this through my own experience in their program. This, however, is a podcast about what you can do to help the environment. Steven's environmental activism is inspiring. He is an avid bird watcher and has been counting birds to track their migration and population for 20 years.  He works to protect rainforest abroad as well as local wetlands.  He drives a Chevy Volt, composts, and he's traveled to Washington DC to meet with our congressmen. For a long time, I've been curious about how people get involved in our political discourse — it is a mystery to me.  So it was fun to hear his journey to DC to meet with politicians and what happened when he met with our representatives. Throughout the podcast, Steven shares a ton of ways that you can make a difference.  I believe understanding is the first step to taking action and taking action is important because it's not just a beautiful planet, it's the only one we've got.  That, and, as Steven puts it, “The planet doesn't care if we die.  We're doing this for ourselves.” I dream for the day when the environmental stability of our planet is not a potential threat - the more we understand where we can best focus our efforts, the more we can magnify the effect that we have on the world.  I hope you listen and share your own insights in the comments! Read Full Transcript [00:00:00] Adam: Welcome to have people helping people, a podcast to share ideas on how to make the world a better place and to inspire you with ideas of how to get involved. We are exploring stories about social change, culture, the environment, and basically people helping people and make awesome stuff happen. I'm very grateful to be talking today with Steven Anderson who found an integrated leadership systems. [00:00:30] They help organizations and companies all over North America improve their leadership and team building so that the organizations can perform at a higher level. Personally, they coach me to be more effective as I've grown in my own career, and I'm very thankful for that. Now, Steven has a great story, but I'm not going into that today because he also does a lot of awesome stuff to help the environment and easy when he God to the Capitol. [00:00:54] To discuss issues with our Congressman, and I just want to know more about how this all came about. So, welcome, Steve. Maybe I can do stop. I'm curious like what motivated you to get involved in improving the environment? [00:01:08] Steve: Well, so I mean, to go all the way back, I, I was raised at a hundred acres and it was. [00:01:14] A small neighborhood of families with about 38 two creeks and about 30 acres of woods attached to it, and I probably was in the woods as much as I was in my house. I mean, I just loved being out there. I love building a campfire of love. We camped out all the time. We just love, we go up on a Hill and find a vine and cut off the bottom of it and swing out there like Tarzan. [00:01:37] It was just build tree houses. It was just the place to be, and I just always felt the most alive in the woods. When I got to be 11 years old, I became a scout and really enjoyed that, became an Eagle scout, and just really deepen my love for nature and appreciation for it. And then when I was my early twenties I started, my brother was a birdwatcher and I started birdwatching. [00:02:04] I was taking a hike with him and he had his binoculars and he started showing me, what's this bring migration started showing me what was. Flying up over the trees that looked like sparrows, but they weren't there. Warblers and I found out there's about 50 species of warblers that winter and South American Nast in Canada,

What’s Your Innovation Quotient? - Interview with Tamara Kleinberg Steve: Welcome to all of our "Becoming Your Best" podcast listeners, wherever you might be in the world today. This is your host, Steve Shallenberger. And we have a very interesting guest with us today. Our guest has helped and inspired many people on how to improve their lives and be more effective. Welcome, Tamara Kleinberg. Tamara: Thank you so much for having me. Steve: Oh, we're excited to have you. And before we get started today, I'd like to tell you a little about Tamara's background. First of all, this is fun. She's part of an elite group of TED speakers for completing three Tough Muddlers. Tell us what a Tough Muddler is, Tamara. Tamara: Oh, they are these...I don't know if you've done one yet...but they are these extreme sport events. It's usually 12 to 16 miles, 20 obstacle courses, and things like getting dumped in water so cold you can't breathe and electric shock wires. It just...it tests your limits, both physical and mental, every time you do it. Steve: Lovely. Well, we know what the Spartan event is. We've had a number of our family members that have participated in that. I think quite similar. Tamara: I love Spartan events. Steve: Yeah, they're great. And Tamara's life is about breaking through the status quo for game-changing results. And I'll just tell you a little bit more about her. She is the founder of LaunchStreet, an online innovation program, and the creator of a proprietary Innovation Quotient Edge, which we'll talk a little bit about later in the program. It's the only assessment able to help you discover your unique innovator archetype, and we'll talk about that, so that you can innovate on demand. She is a sought-after keynote speaker, CrossFit addict, and a knee-high sock lover. She lives in the Colorado area, has two young children, a husband, and they are rocking and rolling. Tamara: Don't forget my dog. My dog would be very upset if you didn't mention her. Her name is Zoe, and she's a 90-pound mastiff. So she's part of the family. Steve: Well, that's perfect. Okay, well, Tamara, what was life like growing up for you? And what experiences helped you to see that you could be successful? Tamara: Yeah, that's such a great question to open with, you know? So I was telling you a little bit offline that we moved every four years of my life. And the reason for that was my dad was an entrepreneur. So we basically bounced from business to business, and that required moving as well. And while that sounds horrible to a lot of people, what I will tell you is it taught me how to talk to everybody, because I had to start over every four years. I became the queen of reinvention I think before I was 18 years old because I always had to. And, you know, I kinda looked back on my life, and, you know, I realized that that entrepreneurial spirit was inside of me very early on. My very first business was when I was 14 years old. I turned my teenage girl's dream closet into a business of renting clothing, and keep in mind, just to date myself, it was the 80s. So the clothing was bad, and it was before the Internet and [inaudible 00:03:19] could rent everything. But, you know, I was always looking for opportunities to just do things a little bit differently. I think a lot of us have that inside of us, that little spark, and it ignites every now and again. And sometimes we shut it down. And sometimes we let it grow. But in that case, I let it grow. And that summer, I had a ton of money. It was great. But, you know, you would...one of the things that you would ask in a previous thing was, you know, kinda what are some of those defining moments in your childhood. And I would tell you a quick story, because I think this really kinda set up how I viewed life and how I ultimately was able to achieve success. When I was in third grade, I got the most awesome homework, which was, you know, come back on Monday morning and tell the class what you wanna be when you grow up. And I was so excited. And that's the best homework you can give a third grader ever because the possibilities at that point in your life are endless. So, you know, I spent all weekend. I really...I took it very seriously. And I got back to school, and I stood up there, and I was the first to raise my hand. So I got up, you know, in front of that dirty chalkboard. And to see if my...you know, kids in front of me in those low tables, and I said, you know, "I'm Tamara. And when I grow up, I wanna be president of the United States." Steve: Woo-hoo! Tamara: And, you know, then I waited... Yeah. Well, that's what I was hoping for. Thank you. You know, I put my head down waiting for the like obvious standing ovation that was coming. But instead, I got laughter. And it wasn't actually the other kids. It was the teacher. Yeah. She looked to me, and she said, "Tamara, don't be silly. You can't be president of the United States. You weren't born here. You need to come up with a new dream." So I wasn't born here. I was born in Israel. But I...I was born on dual citizenship. And it doesn't matter. In third grade, that's not the point, right? Steve: Right, right. Tamara: You know, I went home in tears, and I went into my dad's office because he's working from home at the time. And I said, you know, "I was told that those are the rules. So I can't be president." I was so upset and ready to be very dramatic. And my dad is very brass tacks about everything. And he looked up at me, and he just said, "Well, Tamara, then go change the rules." I was like "Oh my God." Like that opened my eyes to everything in life. So I can't change the rules to be president. Frankly, at this point, I'm really glad I never pursued that path because it looks like a really hard job. But what it did teach me in life and what I've always applied is how can you go around those brick walls and those rules? How do you go under them, over them, through them? There's always a different way to accomplish what you wanna accomplish. And when I was in third grade, what I was really saying was I wanna make an impact on the world. That's really what I wanted. So when I thought about that in a different way, I was able to do different things and get to that goal. Steve: Oh, I love it. Oh, thanks for that background. And this is a great reminder too. We who have the opportunity to work with others, to give them encouragement, to give them hope, to... I love the assignment. You know, to stoke that curiosity and creativity and... Well, great going! That's terrific. Now, how about...you've been moving along. That was a great setback right there, a little challenge. But what's been some of the biggest challenges in your life or a challenge, just pick one, whether personal life or professional, and how did you handle it, and what was the impact? Tamara: Yeah. So, you know, I think we all have a lot of challenges. And sometimes there are tiny little ones that seem to add up over time. And other times there are, you know, big ones that are slapping us around and leaving a little bit of a sting on our face. And I know...I think when I look back, the biggest challenges have been these tiny little things that constantly added up. And, you know, it really led to...it was me always trying to push the limits and always trying to do something different and getting pushed back. And, you know, when I was...and so when I left university...I graduated from UC Berkeley and went out to New York City because I wanted to be in advertising and on Madison Avenue, which in the '90s was a big deal, you know, different now, but it was then. And I remember getting my first job there. And I was an administrative assistant. And that's not what I wanted to be. I wanted to be in account management. But because I didn't have an in, a connection, a referral...I was new to New York. I moved there not knowing anybody. I mean it was me and my apartment for the first six months of my time in New York City. And I had to take the job that I was provided because that's all I could get. I couldn't get the one in accounts because, you know, I didn't know anyone. However, once I got in, I was able to make my imprint and get to where I wanted to be. So, you know, it seemed like a really big challenge, and I had to look at it and go, "Well, how do I do it differently so that I get to my goal, but do it in a different way, because that path I thought I would get is just not open to me?" The beauty of it, though, the thing I learned, not just that, is I learned how hard it is to be an administrative assistant and how that is they are the gatekeepers to everything. So not only did I learn, you know, what I needed to do to get to where I was trying to be, but I also learned what it really meant to take on that role, which was not easy. But that's really all the challenges...every moment that I remember another time I was working at this, you know, prestigious brand strategy and innovation firm. And I used to get in trouble for going home at four because I would be done with my work, and I would do it well, but I was done because I figured out a different way to prioritize my workflow and not do it like everybody else and get even more accomplished in a shorter period of time. But I got in trouble for it. So, you know, I kind of kept having to push boundaries and I kept... What I learned along the way is I had to keep pushing back. I had to keep pushing back. It was my job to keep that flame going, nobody else's, because they were not gonna do it for me. Steve: Okay. Well, now, I just love it. I love the fact that Tamara is out there pushing the horizons, thinking about possibilities. This is one of the things that we need to do to reach our fullest potential. We just gotta reach down inside and say, "Wow, what is it out there that...where can I make my contribution? Where is my area of interest?" and go for it. Don't let things hold us back. And that might be in the different roles that we have in life. And so great going, Tamara. Tamara: Well, thank you so much. You know, I think this is kinda how life works, isn't it? Like it's...I saw this great quote on Facebook from Sylvester Stallone in what...a movie he's I think recently in. I didn't get to see the whole thing, because, you know, you're on Facebook, you scroll through. But, basically, it's like "Look, life is gonna slap you around harder than anybody else. And it's our job to get back up." And I think that's really how I've tried to lead through life. And when you tap your innovative mind, which we all have the power of doing... I know we don't always feel that way. But it's true. We can talk a little bit about the research that led to that and kinda, you know, the assessment that goes along with it. But when we approach things in a more innovative way, we're able to make a greater impact and go around some of those big barriers that we face. Steve: Okay, good. Well, let's talk about innovation. This is one of your specialties. And it plays such a huge role in our success in life. And I was just reading through my personal vision this morning, which I've had for 25 years. It's been inspiring for me. And on the personal level, one of the aspects was when I have setbacks and challenges, I think of options, options, and options. And then I move again. Tamara: I love that. Steve: Well, this is kind of it, innovation. So what's the greatest barrier to innovation? Let's really help our listeners out today of how we can get to a better place. Tamara: Yeah. So there's a couple of barriers that I wanna talk about here. And let me just back up by sharing my definition of innovation so we're all on the same page because I think oftentimes we think of it as a new product, new technology, or, you know, relegated to a certain point in time, exercise, the brainstorm with scented markers, you know, and [inaudible 00:11:08]. But that's really not it. What innovation is and the definition that I'd like, you know, us to move forward with is people each thinking differently about what's right in front of them to create differentiated value. And that really ultimately comes back to us in how we view things and shifting our own perspective and trying out new things. I think that one of the greatest barriers to innovation is thinking that we're not capable of it and that, you know, Greg down the hall with his blue streak in his hair and his funky glasses and, you know, going the cafes to work. He is the innovative guy. But it's really not me, whether that's because of my, you know, how I've been trained over life or my job description or just how I view myself. And that couldn't be more wrong. I think what we've discovered in our 20-plus years of work and research over here at LaunchStreet is that being innovative is actually universal. We all do it. But how we innovate is unique to each of us. But we gotta own that we're innovative people. You now, we all go to the movies, and we suspend belief, and we watch these crazy sci-fi movies, and we think nothing of it. Yet, we come home, and when we ask ourselves to work and we ask ourselves how to think differently about something, and we shut down. We got to bring that back up. Steve: Okay. Well, that's great, yeah. And I love your definition, thinking differently to get better results to how do we be... As you know, one of the things we talk about a lot is helping people become their best. And this is the thinking is we can do it. We can come up with ideas, and we are capable of it. So as we get into this process, Tamara, why do most ideas die before they even have a chance to get going, before someone leaves the conference room? Tamara: Yeah. There's a couple of reasons for it, and it's so sad, isn't it? I mean even asking the question sounds sad, like "Oh, ideas die." It's so sad, but they do, and they do for a couple of reasons. One is we confuse collaboration and consensus. So if we're working in a team, you know, we would have an idea that we wanna either bring forward or we have a problem we're trying to solve and we get together to form a solution for that, what we do by accident, in an effort to create collaboration, is we pull everybody together at the table. Now we've got everybody's opinion. And frankly, it's too many. And we need to replace consensus with collaboration, real collaboration, which I would define as the right people sitting at the table at the right time discussing the right things. That's not everybody. That's the appropriate people together. So that's number one is, you know, we end up doing this consensus decision-making, and that just waters everything down to nothing. Nobody is excited about it, and we leave with this blah, wet clay-looking idea. That's number one. The second thing is...and this was a really painful lesson that I learned along the way from someone who I called Mr. Mustache, because I don't remember his name, but he had a really big mustache. It moved before he spoke. And he shut down every one of my ideas in this meeting where I was presenting ideas. It was actually to Johnson & Johnson baby care. He worked for them at the time. And what I learned that day was that most ideas die because we don't have the language to champion them and get other people along for the journey with us. We assume that the idea is gonna stand on its own, like "Oh my god, this water bottle is so amazing. How could they say no to this?" But they do say no because they weren't along for the journey of the creation of it. And now we're throwing this one-way tennis ball, you know, across the court expecting them to pick it up. And they don't. What I have discovered, and we have a lot of these tools on our LaunchStreet on demand...I think it's part of the reasons why our clients come back year after year for more and more tools. We have this whole language of innovation method because what we discovered is that when you change your language, you change your outcome. But it is just really unfortunate to think the number of ideas that never see the light of day because we just don't know how to champion them. Steve: Okay. Oh, those are good thoughts. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this. What role...I'm just thinking that sometimes people don't have confidence in their ability to innovate, to be a creative force, and so they're a little shy about it. Would that also be a reason that an idea dies that they don't have enough confidence? Tamara: Yeah, you know, it's so interesting, and it's great that you really kinda brought that up to the surface. We don't give ourselves permission to innovate. So oftentimes...we hear this all the time, don't we? Like "Oh, they don't get it. They don't understand. They're not innovative enough." But what we forget is that we don't even give ourselves permission to innovate. So we...before we ever even say an idea out loud, we put layers of judgment on it. We say, "Well, that's not good enough. I mean who am I to share this? I don't have the experience. They'll never go for it. It'll never work. I'll sound stupid. I'll sound like I don't know what I'm talking about. Obviously, if it was a good idea, somebody else would have said it." So we talk ourselves out of bringing those ideas forward. And in doing that, we're shutting down all of that innovative thinking and keeping it inside. Yet, the question we have to ask ourselves is how do we expect to get to those breakthrough ideas or results in our work and life if we're not even giving ourselves permission to innovate? And, you know, when I keynote, I talk a lot about...we do this exercise when we're together in keynote that really brings this to life about how... It's really incredible. We self-sabotage before we even get it to the world. Steve: Right. Now, that's a great insight. If you don't mind let's talk a little about your innovator profile. I've noticed that in your information you have a unique IQE. Tell us what that is. And how can a person use it to get good results, to get innovative results that are helpful? Tamara: So the Innovation Quotient Edge or the IQE, as we call it for short, is the only proprietary tool that helps you understand how you innovate so that you can innovate on demand, so basically so you can tap your greatest asset, which is your innovative mind, as we talked about, that we all have. And part of the reason we decided to create this tool over at LaunchStreet was because we were tired of seeing people say, "I'm not innovative." It's so and so down the hall. Or "I just don't have it in me," or "I want to. It's in me, but I don't know how." And what we realized is if we can help people understand how they innovate, they're more likely to do more of it. I mean we do more of what works for us and less of what doesn't. We wanna tap our strength. And that's what this allows us to do. So we discovered there's nine triggers of innovation, and it's the combination of the top two that make your unique innovator archetype. And here is kind of the cool thing, and I'll use myself as an example. I am a risk-taker and an experiential. Those are my two things to come together for an archetype. And what that means is that the experiential side of me is I have to learn in motion. I have to innovate by doing. So if you ask me to think in theory and hypothesize and leave things on PowerPoint presentation, I shut down. And the funny part is that's how I used to work because that's how you're expected to work. That's how we're trained in our nine to five jobs to get stuff done. But I was actually working against myself, and it was showing up in my work. It wasn't innovative. I wasn't getting recognized for the value I was bringing to the table. I didn't have a strong enough voice because I wasn't playing to my strength. And then I flipped it around. Now when I build an idea out, I build it out with duct tape and scented markers because I need to see it in real life to be able to innovate. And I can now take things to the finish line. So when you understand how you innovate...it's plain and simple...you work smarter, not harder. And the cool part is if you stay in that...you know that zone we always talk about, that flow, you get to stay there longer because you're bringing that innovation to life. Steve: Well, very good. Now I'm gonna put you on the spot here, Tamara. Tamara: Uh-oh. Steve: Yeah. So what's an example? Share an example of someone that used this and the result that they got. Tamara: Yeah. Ooh, oh, this is like the Oprah question. I'm sitting on a couch, okay. So I'll give you actually an example of a company and some of the people inside their company, because there's two great examples out of this. So the company is called Footers Catering. It's one of the largest catering companies in Colorado. So they do very well. The founder, the president, Anthony, had his team take it. And two really interesting things came out of it. First, I'm gonna talk about Kara. So Kara is...one of her archetype is inquisitive. So that means she innovates by asking questions. For her innovations and the questions is not the answer. And you know her archetype because they're the one... You know them. It's 11:30. You got a quick meeting, and you're dying to get to lunch, and they're over there with their hand up like "I just have 10 more questions, just 10, I swear." But that's because they go deep. They pull back the layers of the onion and challenge assumptions. That's how they innovate. So when Kara recognized this, her team understood this about her, because they talked about their result. And now she's able to leverage that. Where before people saw it as kind of an annoyance, like "She's got 10 more questions," now she understands that's how she innovates. So she's empowered to ask the hard question, and her team understands it and actually...and expecting her to ask questions and is okay with it. So it really opened up her ability to add value to the team in a way that she wasn't able to do before. The second one is named Stephanie. And she's a futuristic. That's one of her two power triggers, which means that she's always 10 steps ahead. She's envisioning what it could be, what the possibilities are. She's solving today's challenges by creating tomorrow's opportunities. So she was in a role that was purely administrative. And she was dying on the vine. It was so hard for her. When she realized this, she and the president, Anthony, got together, and they created a new role for her where she's creating themes for their clients when they bring food to their events, whatever it is. So now she's been put in a role that's all about creating the future versus managing the past. And she is doing incredibly well. And the last I'll share with you is an entrepreneur who is outside of that realm who is a collaborative, which is all about pulling disparate people and ideas and experiences together to create innovation. And so they're all about the conversation, the team dynamic. They're very magnetic in that way, but it's because that's how they pull the data pieces together to create innovation. She had this business. She had a product. It was online. It's doing incredibly well. And she was so frustrated because she felt like this wasn't her vision, her dream. She was stuck in a silo in her house with no one to talk to. So when she realized that she was missing the thing that was feeding her soul, this collaborative innovator, she actually created an entire feedback loop with her customers. When they buy the product, they now have this opportunity to engage with her on a regular basis. Because of that, she's able to bring more and more innovation to the table because she created a business that matched how she innovates. She created a collaborative business instead of a solo business, which is what she was doing in the past. Steve: Okay. So that's excellent. So it helps both the individual and it helps the team of how to work better together. Tamara: That's exactly right. That interplay is really interesting. And what we see is when you understand how you innovate, you bring more of that to the table. And we you understand how other people innovate, you respect and seek out their opinion because now you've got a 360-degree view, different ways to tackle a challenge. The results are 10 times better. Steve: Okay. So, Tamara, what's one thing that our listeners can do right now to up their innovation quotient? Tamara: Well, the first thing I do is say go take the assessment and find out what you are. Like I said, there's nine triggers. That means there's 35 different unique combinations that could be you. If you go to gotolaunchstreet.com, that's the way to do it. But let me give your listeners, if it's okay with you, just a little something they can do right away in their everyday life that's one of my favorite innovative exercises. Can I have a minute to do that? Steve: Yes, yes. Tamara: Okay, excellent. So it's what I call geek out. So you mentioned in the very beginning that I'm a CrossFit addict, which is totally true and a knee-high sock lover. I'm wearing knee-high socks right now. I'm very proud to say. So one of the things, the challenges we have with being innovative is we look in our center, you know, in that same box with the same information with the same people over and over again, and then we don't get any result, and we get frustrated. A great way to bring innovation to your world is to go wide, go far out, and then bring that information back. The easiest way to do that is to think about how the innovative brands and products you love...how they do things and how they might solve your challenges. So for example, for me, I always think about...because I love CrossFit...how would they solve the challenge I'm having with the usability of my website. How would Southwest engage with customers in this challenge? How would Trader Joe's bring this idea [inaudible 00:24:26]. Suddenly, it becomes so easy to think differently when you put yourself in the shoes of the brands and the businesses that you love for being innovative. I mean do you have a few that you absolutely love that you could talk my ear off about? Steve: Yeah, sure. Tamara: Yeah, we all have them, right? So when you do that, it becomes super easy to be innovative because you just put yourself in their shoes. Steve: Okay. Well, that's great. I'm always amazed at how fast time goes. Our time is up. And so how can our listeners learn more about what you're doing, and how can they find out about your information? Tamara: Yeah. So the best way is to go to our website, gotolaunchstreet.com. So it's gotolaunchstreet.com. Or you can find us on social media. We're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and it's all @LaunchStreet. Steve: Okay, that's terrific. Well, this is a great resource for people. Thank you, Tamara, for being part of our show today. Really excellent ideas. And you're just touching a lot of people. So we congratulate you on that and on making a difference in the world today. Tamara: Well, thank you for providing a platform to share with your listeners. It's a wonderful show. So I appreciate being on. Steve: Yeah, you bet. And to all of our listeners, never forget, you too make a difference every single day, your leadership, the light that you have as you work on these grows brighter and brighter, and it influences everyone around. So we congratulate you as you're in this journey as well. And I'm Steve Shallenberger with Becoming Your Best Global Leadership wishing you a great day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Radical Abundance - It's a Way of Thinking Steve: Welcome to all of our Becoming Your Best Podcast listeners wherever you might be in the world today. This is your host, Steve Shallenberger, and we have a fascinating guest today. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. She has helped and inspired many people on how to improve their lives. So welcome Dr. Sharon Spano. Dr Spano: Thank you so much, Steve. I'm very excited to have this time with you today and to share what I have to offer to your listeners, and to learn more about you as well. So, looking forward to this opportunity. Steve: Well, thank you. Well, now, before we get started, I'd like to tell you a little about Sharon's background. Sharon has a P.h.D. in Human and Organizational Systems. She's an author, a corporate business strategist, a workforce expert, professional speaker, former radio host of Work Smart Live. She and her husband actually run three businesses. And so she understands what it's like to have business challenges, and success, and setbacks, and overcoming those. She empowers business leaders and entrepreneurs to maximize performance. Also works on employee engagement and how to increase bottom-line results. She is a certified professional coach, she loves helping other people, and especially, stepping into radical abundance. And we're gonna talk about that shortly. Her research focuses on wisdom, adult development and leadership, and her work and her new book, The Pursuit of Time and Money: Step into Radical Abundance and Discover the Secret to a Meaningful Prosperous Life. So there you go. This is somebody we wanna have some fun and listen to. Dr Spano: Well, I appreciate it, Steve. I appreciate it. What a great introduction, thanks so much. Steve: Well, you bet. All right, well, let's jump right into things. So, tell us about where you grew up, what it was like growing up, and what experiences, Sharon, helped you to see that you could be successful? Dr Spano: Well, I think that's a great question, Steve, because we all have our story, right? And so, my early childhood story. My parents were divorced and I was literally dropped off at my paternal grandmother's home at probably around the age of five, my sister and I, in the inner city of Los Angeles. And so, we were kind of thrust into this different lifestyle as children, and it was a pretty intense environment back in the day. I can remember growing up and there were gangs and a lot of things like that. But my grandmother in her wisdom, put us in catholic school, which was not an easy thing, even at $15 a month. I mean, we were very poor, so it was difficult for her to make that happen. But that was the saving grace, I think, because she was worried about us being in the public school system with all the gangs and the things that were going on at that time. And I got a very, very good education with the nuns. And so a lot of my success, I attribute to those early years, because the emphasis was on literary work, and reading and writing, and I learned early. I'm a lifelong learner and I'm an avid reader. And so I would say, most of my success, if I could attribute it to any one thing, which of course there never is just one thing, is there? But it has to do with my willingness to learn, but also the ability to communicate, both in the written and spoken word. That has been really, just a big plus for me throughout my entire career. Steve: Well, that is quite a background, not only cultural, from Los Angeles, and that kind of experience in the inner city, but also that type of a tremendous education. Your grandmother must have been some woman. Dr Spano: Yeah, she was. She had nine children, she buried two husbands, lost her younger son in the war, which I've just recently learned his story because I grew up kind of under this cloud, if you will, of an uncle that she always expected to come home. She believed that he was captured by the Japanese. And I only just literally a month ago found out that he actually went down with the USS Houston. So, it was interesting in many ways, in that, I now have come to see how she prepared me spiritually, but she also prepared me for loss of a son, because I lost my own son in 2008. And so, her strength, her spirituality, her wisdom, you know, sometimes when you're growing up, you don't realize how all that's impacting you, but it's really had a tremendous impact on how I've carried myself through the adversity in my own life. You know, and particularly learning Roy's [SP] story now, in my later years and realizing how she handled, you know, that grief and that uncertainty, you know, never knowing for sure what had happened to him, was quite an amazing thing to grow up, you know, under and have within the household. And I didn't realize how much it prepared me, you know, for the loss of a child. Watching her, you know, witnessing her strength all those years. Steve: Having great role models like that have a far greater impact sometimes than we realize, and how fortunate. And I'm grateful for the wonderful women who have had such a big impact on my life, as well as the great role model men. So, good going on that. So, Sharon, what's been the biggest challenge or maybe one of the biggest challenges in your life, whether personal or in your business life, and how did you handle that? Dr Spano: Well, I think it's really to what I alluded to a moment ago. My husband and I, you know, met, I was pretty young when we met. We've had a very strong and long lasting marriage for over 43 years. We've been very blessed in that. Steve: Way to go. Dr Spano: But our son Michael was born in 1981 with a very rare metabolic disorder. So that was sort of the first adversity that hit us. As a very young couple, that certainly wasn't what we had expected to have happen. And he was at that time diagnosed, he was supposed to live till the age two. So those first years were very, very challenging for us. But we transitioned from Los Angeles, moved to Florida for my husband's business in the early 80s. And Michael wound up living till the age of 27. So we had a very full and rich life with this young man, who was wheelchair bound throughout his life. But there were a lot of adversities and ups and downs, as you can imagine, through that process. And we're both entrepreneurs, running our businesses, you know, trying to stay ahead of the game with him. And his death was certainly, probably without a doubt the biggest challenge of my life. Because he was critical for four years, in and out of hospitals. And of course, my business was booming at that time, and, you know, you're at the height of all of that, and of course, if you knew that you're near the end of, you know, this journey with him, I probably would have quit everything, but you don't know that. You're just kinda living day to day thinking tomorrow is gonna be a better day. And as it turned out, it was a very great opportunity for me to exercise resilience, because managing the business and managing his illness, you know, my husband and I just, again, that was the value of being entrepreneurs. We would just pitch ship for each other, and, you know, be what we needed to be for him first, but still kept the businesses going somehow. And then when he passed, in '08, that in and of itself was such a dramatic event, but one that really made us appreciate the sacredness, I guess, of that kind of life transition. We both buried parents, grandparents, but obviously, it's a very different thing when you burry a child because it's unnatural, right? That our child would pass before us. So, you know, really helped me grow spiritually, helped me appreciate the work that I have and how God has blessed me to serve people in the corporate environment. And I love the work that I'm about. I feel very purposeful in it, and I just have a very, very passionate perspective on the value of life and the legacy that I wanna create moving forward. And I feel like God's timing was perfect, in that, if we had to lose Michael, we lost him at a time where we'd had a wonderful experience with him. Really, as a family, you know, we did so much together. And then, yet at the time of his passing, we're both young enough to still, you know, carry forth our businesses and contribute. I mean, that's really what I want, you know, the fourth quarter, as they say, to be about. How do I contribute to making people's lives better and offer what I can in terms of my wisdom and knowledge to those in business and in corporate America. Steve: Yeah. Well, that...I appreciate you being willing to share about that experience. I'm certain that our listeners, every one of them have challenges. Some are more severe than others at different times in life, and just like the type that you've described anyhow, it's probably different for everybody in a sense. But nonetheless, in many ways, it feels the same way, which is, we wanna do what's important and balance things, and... So, if you were to give some advice to our listeners in the midst of their adversity, the challenge, these heavy weights, and yet still try to balance life. Any thoughts on that? What would you suggest? Dr Spano: Well, I think for me it goes back to purpose, you know. I mean, whatever role or whatever business you're in, you know, how do I be the best in that every given day? Steve: I like the sound of that. Dr Spano: Well, and just fulfill that purpose, you know. And I know that sounds very cliché for some people, and if you're in a job or a position where you hate what you're doing, you know, that's certainly a bigger challenge. But part of the work that I'm about Steve, and I know that you're about is, how do we help people really dive deep enough to figure out how to be their best version of who they are. You know, for me, that's a very spiritual matter because I've been blessed in growing that spiritual line of development and knowing who God is and what he's called me to do. You know, for someone who may not have a traditional belief system to lean on, you know, there is so much out there right now to help people, and that's what I love about the integral coaching work that I do, is we really...we're less about goals in our interaction. When I finish with you today I'm going to meet a CEO who is very clear on his purpose, but he's struggling with some of the changes in the economy and the systems and whatnot. So it's, how do we take all of his strengths and match them to another level of purpose such that we maybe shift his consciousness so he can step up into this new role, in a bigger and better way. So, for me, it goes back to purpose and then staying focused. And then how do I continue to develop my own consciousness so that I'm growing, and moving forward, and adapting. Because as you know, today's leaders have to adapt constantly. I mean, every day, things are moving and shifting so quickly. And we're a global diverse society now. And so, that requires a different type of leadership than we've seen certainly, in generations before. And I think it's exciting, you know, it's an exciting opportunity for each of us to dig deeper and ask ourselves that question. You know, what can I do each and every day to make the world a better place? And for me, when I get up with that perspective, there is usually something miraculous that happens in the course of my workday. And that's kind of what I try to get my clients to see is, what is...even in the most adverse moments, what am I being called to learn? What am I being called to lean into, in terms of my own growing edge? And how can I step up and into that growing edge, such that I become a bigger better person, and realize my potential on the other end of it. You know, certainly through the years of my son's adversity and suffering, I had to dig really deep to be what I needed to be for him, for my husband, and for my clients. And I know I'm bigger and better and stronger on the other side of it for having risen, you know, to that adversity. That's part of my research around wisdom, by the way is, we know that leaders who exhibit wisdom handle adversity a bit differently, and they do a lot of what I've just talked about. When they're in the midst of it, they're looking for what is the lesson here and how can I be my best self in the midst of this. Steve: Okay. Well, let's talk about leadership a little bit more. Every one of us, each one of us is a leader of course, and the mental construct that we have on how to be successful is such an important influence in our personal lives as we deal with others, as you've mentioned, relationships, and professionally. So, let's discuss for a second some different aspects of achieving success, and especially from the point of view that, from your background, your experience. So let's start with radical abundance. It's part of your book, what is it, and why is it important? Dr Spano: Well, I think it's vital and it's a lot of things, in that, it's more about a mind shift, less about what you actually have. And of course the focus of the book is on the experience of time and money, and I'm looking at it through a developmental lens. And by that, I mean, what we know through the research is there are 12 of what we call stages of human development. Obviously, beginning from, you know, birth on up. The average American, we know that 60% of those Americans fall within what we call the expert and achiever levels. And so, part of what I'm exploring in this work is, based on your level of development, what are your paradigms or belief systems around time and money? And I came into that quite by accident, if you will, because I saw so much human suffering in corporate America around these two very important resources that impact us daily, and in every decision and choice that we make, but often at subconscious levels that we're not even aware of. So when we talk about radical abundance, I'm talking about developing, again, those growing edges, the awareness of consciousness, such that you can have a meaningful life of joy and prosperity, no matter what your life circumstances are. No matter how much time or money you actually have. It's a place to come from more than it is a place to get to. And so, I'm really trying to open the conversation, getting people to examine their worldview, their paradigms, and often in the contest of those early childhood stories, because that's where it all begins. What were the things you were taught or heard about time and money, you know, and how is it impacting you in terms of your daily choices today. And what we're finding is, when we can open the discussion, and of course, we have instruments where we can actually measure where people are developmentally. That helps a lot, for them to see where they are and to see that you don't have to be stuck there, you can grow in these developmental, what we call developmental lines. There actually 26 lines of development that we enjoy as human beings, that we're aware of today. And I focus in my integral coaching work and in my strategic work with leaders on six of them. And so we can literally see where people are and where there might be some short falls or some faulty premises, as I like to say. Ideas or ways of being, ways of action that are inhibiting you from realizing and maximizing your potential. And then when we can do that, we can coach or help people shift those paradigms, such that they step into more radical abundance. Steve: Okay. So you're saying radical abundance is something that's within us? It's a way of thinking? Dr Spano: Yes. I'm saying that it's a way of thinking, it's a consciousness, if you will. And if you think of the stages, kind of the easiest way that I explain it, even though they're not a hierarchy per se. If you imagine a mountain top, Steve, and you're climbing that mountain. Stage one might be at base camp, okay? And then as you mature, and grow up and into higher states of consciousness and stages of consciousness, imagine yourself at the top of the summit. So, one is not necessarily better than another, but it is a broader perspective. So, for someone who grew up in the inner city like I did, your story, the story that's given to you as a child is, you can never get out of here. You're not smart enough for an education, and you'll never get a really good job. And so, you know, that's why people get stuck in ghettos, right? For some reason, that never resonated with me, and I don't know why, because I always knew I will become educated, and I will get out, and I will have a different life. But for many, they don't even know there is another life outside of that environment. And that's part of the opening that I'm trying to create. Because as you mentioned moment ago, we're all leaders. And I've taught that for years and years, because I don't believe that leadership is a title. I believe that it's...also, it's a mindset, it's a place to come from. You know, you can step into leadership and whatever role you play within an organization. And so, that's part of the exciting work that I've been blessed and able to do, is to help people see, when we change your paradigms and the actions flow from that. And more importantly, when we can shift your consciousness and your whole way of seeing the world, anything is possible. I mean, it really is. And so, you know, that's the work that I wanna be about, and that's the conversation I wanna open up within people whenever I can. Steve: Okay. Well, that's very exciting. So you're really working on transformation with people. And so, it sounds like what you're saying is the experiences we have in our childhood has a big impact on how we see time and money? Dr Spano: That is what we've been researching and we're seeing more and more evidence of that as a reality. And so, one of the examples that I like to give for instance is, as a child, I grew up, again, living with my grandmother and my dad who was supposedly to be the provider, really never was around very much, right? My dad, you know, did his best as most of our parents did, but he wasn't a guy that was really invested in his children. And so, I grew up hearing stories of, "Your dad isn't around. Your dad isn't paying for you. You're a charity case. You know, you're lucky to be here." That was from my aunts, not from my grandmother, of course. And so, the message that I received was, my parents don't value me and I'm not really worth their time and money. Now, as a child, you don't know that. You know, I didn't internalize it to that degree. But later in life, it played out, in that, I didn't think I was worth, you know, the salary, or the raise, or the promotion. You know, and it took me many years to unravel that. Well, then fast forward years later, I'm seeing this in CEOs, I'm seeing it in clients, you know, left and right. And when you get down to, you know, what is the scarcity mentality that's running you? Whether it be corporate wide or just in terms of your own personal life. Almost always they'll go back to a story that says, "Well, that's what I was taught." And the interesting thing, Steve, that I'm finding, that I'm so excited about is, it's fairly simple when we look on the spectrum because we have an assessment that we've developed called, "the time lining instrument." And it's an inventory that will help the individual see where they fall on the spectrum between scarcity and abundance. Scarcity is fairly clean and obvious as is abundance. Where it gets really challenging is when you're in the moderate range. Because for instance, someone who's in moderate scarcity might look like and believe themselves to be highly responsible. And so, they're doing all these theoretically right things that might look like they're coming from abundance, but often, those very same things are fear driven. And so, for instance, it's the father who, and this is a real example that I often share. Who saves, and saves, and saves, you know, from the time he's a young man for retirement, but he saves to the point where, you know, they can't even go to dinner or his kids have never been to a theme park because we don't have money for that because we're saving...we're doing the responsible thing and saving. So the lifestyle is affected. And what the children learn is how to be fearful and worry about both time and money, because that's what dad does. Steve: Okay. Dr Spano: Does that make sense? Steve: Yeah. And there is a big difference between the scarcity mentality and an abundance mentality, and how we treat everybody, and our experiences. So that's a very interesting level of research that's going on. How do we help somebody that may not have had the type of childhood that positions them for the type of success they could have. How do you give them hope? How do you help them with that transformation? Where do you focus? Dr Spano: Well, I think, you know, for me, I always say that with the first moment of awareness comes opportunity for change. And so, what I find is, a lot of the things that I'm talking about here, particularly get into the scarcity, they're very much at a subconscious level. So I might know for instance, that I'm worried all the time, that I'm fearful all the time, or that I feel like I'm being chased by the clock, but I don't know what to do about it. And so, part of the work that I do with groups or even with individuals is, we bring those thought processes to a level of awareness. And then we start to talk about what would a new way of being look like. You know, I'm this way now, but what if I were this way. What would that look like? Because the other thing that we know about development is that people, particularly in the earlier stages, don't always have the capacity to see things moving forward. Like, they can't see things a year out or two years out. Or they don't often understand consequences of certain actions. And so, when you start to connect the two, when you think this way and behave this way, this is the outcome, you start to... I mean, it's literally like you put a mirror in front of them and they're seeing themselves for the very first time. And it takes a while, but once they have that awareness and then you start to, together, paint a picture of how things might be differently. And then of course, obviously, when I'm working in companies, we're looking at infrastructures and systems and processes and all of those kinds of things. Because a leader, whether it be corporate or entrepreneurial who's coming from scarcity, it's gonna impact obviously not only how he leads, but how he builds or fails to build the infrastructure for the organization. And so, you know, we get into a lot of that. And it can be sometimes a very quick process. It can lean on just how open the individual is to change. And sometimes it takes months and months and months, maybe even years. And a lot of times I work with a leader who goes off, and then I hear from them two years later because now they're at another...what we call another growing edge. They're moving into another stage of consciousness, and so now we have to kinda revisit things again. But that's what's cool is, you know, the progress is being made and it's a process. Steve: So, these things that cause success and you talk a lot about, Sharon, time and money and how it correlates to what we value most in life, right? Dr Spano: Right. Steve: So, there is hope for people then, that they can develop these skills? Dr Spano: Well, the skills are the outcome of the shift in consciousness. So, one of the things that I talked about is the cycle of freedom, which I believe begins with understanding the essence of stewardship. And that's a big word that means a lot of things. You know, some talk about it in terms of sustainability, but I'm talking about it in the context of, where your treasure is, there is also your heart. So, I'm gonna put my time and money, I'm gonna utilize these two most important constructs or resources based on what I value and treasure the most, right? So, stewardship is a part of how I make those choices and decisions. And then from that, I believe grows greater compassion, generosity, a greater sense of gratitude, and then eventually, even a greater love for myself and others, because self is a part of it. You know, if I don't value myself, I'm not gonna take the time for instance to nurture my mind, body, my spirit, you know, those things. And then that translates to how I love and care for others, and even my love and care for greater humanity. So, it's letting go of the fear and then stepping into this radical abundance of, there's enough for me and for others, and for me to be generous and to give, and to focus my attention. So like, one of the examples that I like to talk about is, there's this young child that comes from an environment where nobody wanted to invest in me. And then I meet this amazing man who lives in abundance, who believes in the flow of money, and that there is always enough. And when there isn't, he just creates. But he's always invested time and money in me. So, he's kind of the opposite of what I knew as a child. You know, he's the nurturing, loving, caring, generous husband, who, you know, is the president of my fan club, who is always willing to invest in whatever it is that I'm about. And that's a pretty big deal for someone like me because I could have just as easily married an abusive guy, coming from the environment that I came in. Steve: Got it. That's a good example. Dr Spano: I mean, it's truly a blessing, right? That I kind of stumbled into the right guy. I don't know what that says about me, but... Steve: No, I had a friend one time who is the CEO of a major utility company in the United States. And I was the young man and he said, "Now, let me just share with you the three biggest things that will have the greatest impact on your happiness." I said, "Okay, great. I've got my pen ready." He said, "Number one is the person that you choose to spend your life with, to marry." He says, "That's one of the three biggest decisions that will impact your happiness." And it's fortunate that you've found that somebody that helps you see what can be possible. In our language, that helps you see that, you know, you can work on becoming your best. And it's different for really everybody, but to have people like us that can help like that is helpful. Number two, he said is the career that you choose. So you wanna choose a career that you can love, that you can make a difference in. And then number three was interesting, is the first major company that you work with. He said, it will have a huge impact on, you know, on your future, your career. So this kinda deals with what you've just been talking about of creating an abundance mindset, and how it affects everything else. Your time, your money. Well, tell us as we wrap up. I'm always amazed how fast time goes, what was the impetus behind you writing your most recent book? Dr Spano: Well, a lot of what I've discussed and I think anyone can...who's been in business can relate to the idea or the experience, I guess I should say, of hiring someone who wasn't the right fit. And years ago, I had a guy that I hired that I thought had great potential, and he was quite brilliant, and I just was never able to get this guy to make money. I mean, he couldn't get any clients, he couldn't make any money, and I just couldn't figure it out because I had invested quite a bit of time, money, and energy into him. And one day I just asked the question, "You know, what do you believe about people who have money?" And he said, "I think they're oppressive, greedy, and egocentric." And in that moment, Steve, I went, "Well, wow. No wonder I can't get you to make any money. Why would you wanna be like those guys?" And he was one of those guys who came also from the inner city of New York, and he'd had a rough life. And even though he was brilliant, he just could not step into the type of radical abundance, you know, that I'm talking about. So he sabotaged his entire career and even his home life. And it kind of opened my eyes and it began, kind of it was like the first stages of curiosity for me to begin to study this further. And then of course, once I got into the developmental work, I started to see the correlations between where people were developmentally. And I just got very excited about, you know, wanting to be an interruption to some of that in a more concrete way. So that was really the impetus behind the book and some of that earlier research. I mean, my whole body of work is not only on time and money, but time and money to me are just the symptom of the other things that are going on within this. Because again, there are two very important resources that can define, you know, our life if we let them. And what I'm really saying is, have awareness of how you utilize them. Have awareness of how they're impacting your relationship so that you can make better choices, and live a life of radical abundance. Steve: Okay. Well, that's great. Yeah, I had a friend one time say, "You know, money is not the most important thing in life." But it is right up there on the list with oxygen. Dr Spano: Yes, it is. Unfortunately, it is, and we have to learn to be good stewards of it. Steve: Exactly. Okay, well, Sharon, tell us how our listeners can learn more about what you're doing, tell us about your book. I think it's coming out, right? Or is it here already? Dr Spano: Yes. Well, the pub date is August 1st, and they can go to the www.timemoneybook.com/becomebest/, and we have some resources there. One is a manifesto that I've written on radical abundance. The other is, they can have access to our research based time, money, inventory. It's all confidential, but it'll help them see where they fall on the spectrum between scarcity and abundance. So that's the timemoneybook.com. And certainly, they can visit my website, which would also get them there, at sharonspano.com, to learn more about my overall work and the work that I do, you know, as a consultant and integral coach. Steve: Well, congratulations Dr. Sharon Spano. What a great job you're doing. Dr Spano: Well, thank you, Steve. And I would say the same to you. And I appreciate so much the opportunity to be on your show, and to hopefully, have an impact on some of your listeners on some of the thing that they're thinking about, as they too, begin to embrace what it means to maximize performance and step into radical abundance. Steve: Well, great. Well, I'm sure that that will be the case and we appreciate you being part of the show today, you've done a great job. We certainly wish you all the best because you're certainly making a difference in the world. Dr Spano: Thank you, Steve. Steve: And to all of our listeners, never forget, you too can make a difference every single day of your life. I'm Steve Shallenberger, with Becoming Your Best Global Leadership, wishing you, a great day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

My father founded his company, ASG, 15 years ago to provide retail real estate services: helping retailers to audit landlords, manage leases, build stores, negotiate deals and develop strategy. Personally, I started working with my dad 8 years ago and built up a cloud platform called ASGedge for managing retail real estate. There are so many glamorous stories of aspiring entrepreneur's from Shark Tank or venture capital-funded companies -- it's refreshing to hear how a company was built without outside capital by building relationships and providing good service. It is a bit different from what I've written about, but I was very excited to interview my dad because it's a story of how a successful company got off the ground: how they found their first contracts, hired their first employee, faced growing pains and built a solid business in the wild ever-changing world of retail. Read Full Transcript [00:00:00] Adam: welcome to that people helping people podcast where we talk about culture, social change, and entrepreneurship. I am very excited today to be speaking with my father, Steve Morris, who started assets, strategies group or. ASG about 17 years ago. As a quick disclaimer, I do work for my dad. I manage a cloud platform called ASG edge for retail real estate management. [00:00:36] With that said, let's jump right in. Thanks that for talking to me, and maybe we could kick off with a little bit. What gave you the idea to start your own company? [00:00:44] Steve: Well, I tell you, when I had a long corporate career and I worked for a number of turnaround situations, and after my last one, which was at the limited, I just started, I had a small nest egg and I started looking around for something I could buy and run. [00:00:59] I always . Wanted to run my own business, so I ran a small.com and Baltimore for about a year and a half. That didn't pan out. I teamed up with a friend of mine, Rick Warren, and we looked at a number of businesses we invested in, one that was in bankruptcy that unfortunately stayed in bankruptcy, didn't pan out, so I'd been on about a two or a two and a half year quest on kind of startup ideas and things I could get involved in and end up running. [00:01:27] And controlling, and I was pitching an idea to the CFO of justice, a guy named Kent Berger around a credit card, a proprietary credit card idea and camp. Ask me why I wasn't doing real estate when I was COO of real estate at limited brands. He said, and justice was part of limited brands. They were getting half a million dollars a year in savings through our. [00:01:53] Various initiatives. And frankly, I was a bit burned out after leaving the limited about real estate and I, I gave them the names of some people I thought would be good for him to contact. And we scheduled a meeting about a month on and at that meeting he again, he set up, talked to all of those people. [00:02:12] They're not anywhere near. I have the capabilities you had. Think about this again. He said, I'll give you would be all in. I'm giving you a contract and doing our audit work, landlord audit work. So at that point, I've always wanted to do, I've always been a Namor, the idea of having an in business with a partner and the person who worked for me at the limited and was a good friend all and I. [00:02:36] Kick that idea around and the partnership idea goes back to, you know, Paul Allen, bill Gates, Charlie monger, Warren Buffett, and reflect, or John D Rockefeller. There are a lot of really good entrepreneurs that may be more prominent, but they had a, or have a partner that. We're pretty instrumental in beginning of the business. [00:02:57] So I kicked this idea around with all Ambien and also cautious. I had a couple of trips scheduled. I was in San Francisco. I met with gap and asked them about if we started this company, what would it look like to them? Would, would it be something they would give us contracts for? And I will say,

Episode 36: James and Erin Write a Movie (“Redo Year’s Eve 1”) Hey, everyone! Did you ever wish you could go back in time over and over and over again until you manage to right every tiny wrong throughout your day, and also that you and everyone around you was named Steve? Well then boy, … Continue reading Episode 36: James and Erin Write a Movie (“Redo Year’s Eve 1”)

Steve Klabnik @steveklabnik | Blog | GitHub Show Notes: 02:56 - Getting Into Rust 05:51 - Working on Rust for Mozilla 07:01 - Writing Documentation and Preventing Burnout 13:24 - The Rust Programming Language 18:45 - Rewriting Firefox in Rust 21:20 - High-level Functions 25:23 - Typesystem and Concurrency 36:35 - Rust and Web Developers; Digging Into Rust on a Deeper Level 43:46 - The Rust Ecosystem and Using Rust on a Day-to-Day Basis 48:38 - The Rust Book Resources: Rust For Rubyists Cargo Servo Application Binary Interface (ABI) MetaLanguage (ML) Tokio Systems Programming intermezzOS Steve Klabnik: Exploring Ruby Through Rust What's new with “The Rust Programming Language”? rustbook Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast episode 51. I'm here, my name is Charles Lowell. I'll be hosting today. With me is Chris Freeman, also of The Frontside and with us is Steve Klabnik. Now, most of you probably heard of Steve before. My first encounter with Steve was actually at the LoneStarRuby Conference back in... Gosh, I don't know. It was many, many years ago and he was giving a talk on Shoes, which I also had never heard of before. It was a wonderful story of a code archaeology project where he was kind of investigating, rehabilitating, and in carrying forward a project that the 'why the lucky stiff' had done. That was a wonderful introduction but it was certainly not the last time that I encountered him in his writings and in talks and stuff, mostly within the Ruby community. But it popped up again and again, talking about Rust APIs and always making a point to take a good knowledge that he'd learned and spread it around. Personally, I've lost track of Steve or hadn't really heard much of what he was doing for a while. But then Chris came into the office and he was always talking about this language called Rust. While I've heard Rust, Chris was just all about it and wanted to have Steve come on the show because it turns out that Steve, you've been really, really, really into Rust these last few years and sounds like concentrating most of your work there. STEVE: That is totally true and accurate. Also to go back a bit, that means that you are in attendance for my very first conference talk ever. CHARLES: Really? STEVE: That was literally the first one. CHARLES: Wow, it was a great start. That was a great story. It was educational and also touching. STEVE: Thank you. It's actually interesting because what happened was is that someone else who works on Shoes have encouraged me to submit to RubyConf and I was like, "Who would want to hear me talk at a conference?" I submitted the talk and RubyConf accepted it and I was really excited. Then a bunch of other conferences noticed and two other conferences had asked me to give a talk before RubyConf happens and LoneStar was one of them and it was the first one chronologically. That moment was also very special to me as well. CHARLES: Fantastic. What year was that? STEVE: I want to say it was like 2012 or 2011. It's really hard for me to pay attention to time and date. My history is so complicated that I often forget. I've literally told people that I'm 10 years old or younger than I am because I would like mess up to date on the things. It just happens. CHARLES: Yeah, but it was a while ago and it's been quite a journey, in between now and then. STEVE: Yeah, definitely and you're also definitely right. It is now literally my day job to work on Rust so it is definitely the focus of most of my efforts. Partly, why I made that happen was because it was the focus of all my hobby efforts before I made my job. It's definitely been a couple of years that I've been a full-time on all the Rust stuff. CHARLES: How was it that you actually got into Rust? How did you hear about it before everybody else and how did it capture your attention? STEVE: I've always liked programming languages and learning different programming languages. Ruby was sort of where I became known professionally. But it wasn't the first language that I knew and I knew it was never going to be the last. As much as I always loved Ruby and I'm like literally have a tattoo on my body so I will be with Ruby forever. I always try to learn new stuff and I find it exciting. I'm from middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania in the suburbs of Pittsburgh on a cattle farm and I was visiting my parents for Christmas one year. There's not really a whole lot to do out of the very small town so I was just reading the internet, as usual and it turns out that that was the day that Rust 0.5 had been released. I saw this release announcement go by and I was like, "I vaguely heard of this programming language once or twice maybe. I don't have anything to do. Let's give it a try." I downloaded and installed it. I looked at their tutorial and the tutorial has a problem that a lot of tutorials had, which is I read it, I said, "This all makes sense," I tried this down to write a program, and I had no idea how to actually write a program in it at all. I'm just completely confused. I couldn't actually apply the sort of syntax stuff that I learned. At the same time, I was going to be working on this hypermedia book -- that was my plans for that trip -- as always, you just rewrite your tooling over and over again. You [inaudible] like, "Just don't write the thing. Write the tools that make the thing," so I wanted to try out a new way to take mark down and generate PDFs in HTML, involving pandoc. I sort of had that all set up and I said, "Well, let me give this a try run. What I'm going to do is I'm going to write down what I learned in Rust as I learned it," and sort of from a Ruby programmers perspective, I'll use that and working with my new tooling to see if it works to actually work on the real book and it will also help me understand Rust better because one of the reasons why I do all this sort of teaching and advocacy is because I think it helps me learn. Just as much as I like helping other people learn stuff, I find that the repetition and being forced to explain something to someone else really make sure that I understand what I'm talking about. That's what the thing called Rust for Rubyist became boring. I'm a sucker for alliteration and that sort of became the first to tutorial for Rust from outside of the Rust projects proper. From there, I went on to submit some pull requests because everything's open source so I wrote some documentation and funny enough, my first ever pull request to Rust was actually rejected based on procedural grounds. At the time, they didn't actually accept pull request to master, they accept this other weird branch and GitHub don't have the ability to re-target the branch of the pull request. I also, always like this story because the thing that I now on the core team of, like my first attempt at getting involved was wrong and was turned down. But I'd fixed that pull request issue and got that in but it is kind of kept working on an open source capacity for a while and then decided to ask Mozilla if I can make it my job. Luckily they said yes. CHARLES: Wow, so what? Your job at Mozilla, like you just kind of showed up and said, "I would like to have a pretty cool, awesome job, working on this brand new language," and they were like, "Sure, come on in?" STEVE: To some degree, yes. That's one way of putting it. There is always the devil in these details. The first thing is that that wouldn't have worked if I had wanted a different kind of job. But when someone comes to you and says, "I would like to write documentation for you all day," you go, "Oh, my gosh. This literally never happens." If I had wanted to like work on the compiler, I'm pretty sure they would have said no. But because they knew documentation was important and they wanted documentation and because I had already been basically doing that job in an open source way, it's like I've had a year-long interview already. Then finally, they actually didn't have headcount at the time so I actually moved on as a contractor initially and had to do some freelance work and then eventually, once we were able to hire a new person kind of got it in. They're like a cool kid story. It's like, "Oh, yeah. I totally asked Mozilla for my perfect dream job and they just gave it to me," but like that's not really the way that it works. CHARLES: Got you. That actually leads me into a question that I have wanted to ask you. You write a very good documentation as your day job and documentation is extremely hard. For me, it is extremely hard to get and stay motivated to document something that I've worked on. I think that is probably a common enough experience for programmers. We don't recognize because we use documentation that it's extremely valuable and yet, it still this thing that is just a constant uphill battle. I'm curious, how do you manage to stay motivated to write documentation for an entire programming language over the span of years? STEVE: As I'm often want to do, this has like three or four different components. I guess, there's a couple of different things involved. The first one is that I actually got accepted to go to English grad school, although I ended up not pursuing that. Like writing, it's something I have just always enjoyed. I got a Bachelor in Computer Science but then I was going to go to grad school for English and due to university shenanigans, it didn't really work out. They told me I was going to get a free ride and then accepted me and then they were like, "Oh, wait sorry. You have to pay for this." And I was like, "Wait, sorry. No, I'm not doing this anymore. That's ridiculous." That's kind of always a predilection for writing and I think that the reason why that is because I grew up basically like on Slashdot and eventually then on Dig and Reddit and all these other things. I've kind of been writing a couple paragraphs a day, basically every day in my life since I was a little kid. I think that's something that's sort of like underappreciated. Documentation is hard but it's like a skill, like any other thing. Programmers will say, "I really want to learn TDD so I'm going to make myself do some TDD, I'm going to practice it, I'm going to focus on it and that's going to be a skill that I'm going to improve," and then they see documentation, and they kind of think it's this thing that you either have the skill or you don't. But writing is just another thing like anything else that you can practice at and get better. I think maybe it's because it's a little bit farther away from the wheel house of what you do day to day, that people aren't as interested in it but it is something you're truly interested in, I think the best way to get better is just to do it and do it a lot. I say this is I'm kind of in the middle of a little bit of writer's block at the moment to be honest. Then finally, I think the other reason that I'm motivated about docs is that I actually believe that documentation is an exercise in empathy. Like good documentation, the ideal as a programmer, the ideal thing that happens in documentation is I have a question about how to use something, I go to the documentation, and it says the exact sentence that answers my exact question. As those varying degrees of vaguely gives you the right idea, versus literally tells you exactly what to do. I think that the way that you can accomplish that excellent documentation is by understanding what your users need and then preemptively figuring it and/or writing that down. I think that that requires being able to put yourself in their shoes to some degree. I'm not going to say that that's a thing that I am perfect at but I think that a valuable skill when trying to improve docs's like figure out what they actually need and then give it to them. It's doesn't always have to be in that order, like sometimes people will fail to find the thing they need, tell you what you need, and then you give it to them. That's a strategy I've used a lot and that's one reason why I hang out in the Rust IRC all the time, helping people is for a very long time, I would like sit in IRC, someone would ask a question, I would answer the question, I'd go look in the docs and see if they could have figured out themselves. If they couldn't, that would be might next doc PR. It's just like even if it's just a couple sentences like add the question from IRC into the documentation and then just do that over and over and over again and then eventually, people start learning from the docs instead of actually ask questions because they already found what they needed. CHARLES: Right. I have a question about that because once you develop those skill, I think you also still run the risk of like burning out. I know that one of the reasons I tend to always fall back to like, "I'm going to spend my time doing coding instead of documentation," Or, "I'm going to spend my time --" Even with TDD is a great example is like with TDD you get to experience those short term wins. I think that kind of prevents you from burning out, where sometimes when I'm writing documentation, it feels like I'm screaming at the void. I might be screaming really loud and really, really well but I feel like a lot of times, I'm not experiencing those wins and I'm wondering if you have any tips for like experiencing those wins. Or getting that feedback to kind of keep you motivated and keep you doing the job. Also, trying to push the level of your own documentation skill and communications skill. STEVE: Yeah, experiencing the wins is definitely a part of it. But one of the other things that is sort of part of it is that like I do the opposite. I do a lot of coding but that's my side projects. When I get fed up with writing documentation, I maintain the [inaudible] implementation that Cargo uses to resolve Rust packages, for example. If I'm feeling a little stuck on docs, I'll go write some software and then come back to the docs so that kind of help with burnout. Another thing is that I think I'm just like perpetually in a state of just barely above burnout anyway so that also sort of factors in I guess. You know, it's like Bruce Banner. The secret is that I'm always angry so -- CHARLES: So you work on open source, is that what you're saying? STEVE: Yeah, exactly. We're working on open source all the time. I've been lucky enough to make open source as my job for, basically almost my entire professional career. Although not totally. You know, at some point, you just kind of get used to it. But in terms of experience and the wins, this is also one of the reasons why I like to teach beginners specifically is that beginners allow you to remember what it's like to be a beginner, which is also part of building the empathy. By interacting with beginners a lot, you also get a lot of those wins because beginners usually ask easy questions so it's easy to figure out the answer that stuff. Then you've got that positive feedback loop kind of going. To me it's maybe not IRC literally for every project but answering questions on Stack Overflow, or whatever message board forum you have, or Twitter, like actually interacting with other people. For me at least, that's how I get that kind of sense of not screaming into the void that you have to like go into the void and find the other people there, I guess, that I'm just like come to you necessarily. CHARLES: Speaking of empathy for beginners, it just occurred to me that we didn't actually talk about what Rust is. We probably should do that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the Rust, language, as well as, you've mentioned Cargo and [inaudible] ecosystem for us as well? Let's talk about that. STEVE: Yeah, totally. Basically, Rust is a new-ish. I should stop saying new because it's almost not really at this point. A kind of new-ish programming language, heavily sponsored by Mozilla in development. Its idea is to become a new low-level programming language. But I always hesitate when I say this because one of my old pitches for Rust used to be like, "Rust could be used anywhere. You can use C." Then people go, "I would never write, C is so cool. Rust is not for me." I'm like not do that. But the reason that people don't use C is a lot of the problems that we are also trying to fix. I guess the primary differentiator for Rust in terms of like programming languages theory is that it is safe and safety as they got specific meaning. But basically C is a very dangerous sharp tool and you can cut yourself and people who use those tools often do cut themselves, whereas Rust is like it's got a safety guard on it. It's a compiled language so its compiler actively prevents you from making some of the worst mistakes that you can make in a low-level programming language like C. It turns out that when you start building up these sort of safe abstractions on top of these really fundamentally low-level details, you actually end up with a relatively high-level programming language. I talked to a lot of people, for example from JavaScript or Ruby world or Python world who come to Rust that are modulus, some libraries, and other things. This is actually high-level enough that I feel like I could do this instead of review JavaScript all day and I would be just as comfortable. The other day, I did a little bit pair programming and we actually recreated a JavaScript library in Rust that had virtually the same interface because like you can actually build relatively high-level things so pass an enclosure to a function that does some stuff is totally normal and Rust world. That's also very familiar to people that come from the Ruby, JavaScript, Python background. Also then, as part of that is we also culturally like Rust the projects, not Rust the programming language, really, really cares about helping people understand what systems programming and like lower-level programming means. A lot of people will not program and in C or C++ because they have no idea how to get help or to learn because many people in the low-level space have this RTFM attitude or like, "If you don't know what you're doing, then get out of here," whereas in Rust world, if you ask an extremely basic question, we're like, "Welcome. We would love to have you. I would be very happy to like walk you through," like explaining how that works on these kind of low-level details. Part of the culture of Rust is to bring this sort of low-level programming to people that have rejected it before for various reasons. The reason that Mozilla cares and the reason Mozilla sponsored the project is that Firefox is written in C++, so like four million lines of C++ last I checked. Last time we did a security audit of a really pants-on-fire, terrible security bugs in Firefox, I go to this website and now they run arbitrary code on my machine kinds of terrifying bugs. Basically happened because C++ is dangerous and sharp. If you screw up, there's the kind of bad things that can happen. About 50% of those security issues in Firefox would be eliminated at compile time by the Rust compiler. That's a really huge win in general so the idea is that we are slowly rewriting Firefox and Rust over time. That's one angle of why Mozilla cares about Rust. The second part is Servo, which is a rendering engine that's built in Rust from the ground up. If you think about Firefox proper, it's got Gecko as the rendering engine inside that actually determines where things go on the page and stuff. We're also writing a new one of those from scratch called Servo in Rust. That was also to prove that the language was doing the kind of things that we need it to do. But also Servo is an impressive piece of technology in its own right so it might become its own thing and/or bits and pieces of it are already making their way into Firefox. It's kind of also a way to improve our core products. That's why Mozilla cares. CHRIS: I was curious with Servo and Servo is the layout engine. Do you know if there are any plans to write a JavaScript runtime in Rust? STEVE: That question is complicated. Sort of what it boils down to is that a Git is inherently kind of unsafe by Rust definition of unsafety. It's actually controversial like when I talk to people that work on JavaScript engines, they're pretty much 50/50 split between, "Oh, yeah. Totally Let's absolutely rewrite the whole thing in Rust because we rewrite it every two or three years anyway from scratch so why not use Rust next time," to, "Since it's massively unsafe anyway, I don't see what benefit I would actually get so why not just stick with what we know." It's like very extreme ends. It's definitely feasible but I don't know if it's going to happen and/or when exactly. CHARLES: There were two questions that I had kind of to unpack some of the things that you said in there that were just really interesting to me. You said Mozilla plans to incrementally rewrite Firefox in Rust, where it's currently four million lines of C++. Now, how does that actually work where you're talking about swapping out large parts of the runtime with something that's written in a completely separate language? How does that communication happen between those language boundaries? STEVE: There's this concept called an ABI, not API. It may sound very similar -- Application Binary Interface. What this really boils down to is assembly language does not have function calls. That's not a concept, that's in assembly. People have come up with, "If I write a function and I map it to assembly code, what's the convention about how I do things like passing an argument and return values? How those all that stuff actually work?" Because assembly is so low-level, there are multiple different ways that you can make that happen. There's a number of different specifications how to make that work so C, the programming language, has a very straightforward ABI so any programming language that knows how to call C functions, uses these convention at the assembly level to do the function call. What you can do with Rust is you can say, "Please make this Rust function follow the C calling convention," in that way, any sort of thing that knows how to call C functions can call Rust functions directly. By doing that, you can sort of say like take a chunk of code, write it in Rust, expose a C interface, and then anything that knows how to talk to C, which is virtually everything, can talk to Rust equally as well. For example, one of the earliest production uses of Rust was actually inside of a Ruby gem because Ruby can be extended to C and Ruby knows how to have C extensions. It doesn't actually need to know that it's literally written in C. It just needs to know how to generate the assembly to call the correct functions. That's actually like a thing. Basically, the process is like write a component in Rust, expose this language independent wrapper, and then call into it like you would in C code. CHARLES: So it's really, just they're sharing memory and sharing is like right there in the process and there's no overhead for the intercommunication, it sounds like? STEVE: Yeah, exactly. You could also do all the regular things with JSON-RPC over a socket or whatever if you wanted to. The most efficient way is to literally include it as your binary just like anything else. CHARLES: Which kind of leads me into my next question, which is Rubyist and Pythonista people coming from JavaScript, one of the reasons we don't like to write in C is because, as you mentioned, they're so sharp so we have safety so that you don't have to worry about memory allocation for the most part, the garbage collector kind of has your back there. You access things by reference so you never have to worry about accessing memory. That's not there but kind of the conventional wisdom is that that all comes with a pretty big cost. It's like really, really expensive. I know when I was getting into Ruby and I was explaining a lot of the pushback I got from people doing C and even Java, it was like, "It's going to be super slow because all those high-level features that you love so much, you're paying a lot. A lot for them." My understanding is that's not really true with Rust. Is that fair to say? STEVE: Well, Rust does not have a garbage collector so, yes, it does not pay that cost because it doesn't exist. Now, that also raises a bunch of other interesting questions and basically what it boils down to is a compiler and especially one that has a typesystem, basically asks you to declare certain properties of your code like this function takes one argument only and it's always a string. That's sort of what type safety means. It kind of like a fundamental level. One of the ways that Rust uses type safety is to say, "This pointer to this memory always points to valid memory," and you have to be able to demonstrate that to me at compile time. From those couple of sentences, that sounds extremely complicated but it turns out that most programming code is written in a way that actually works this way. For example, like I'd talk to Yehuda Katz a number of times because we're friends, he also works on the Rust project and he's also well-known in JavaScript and to you all, I would assume. It turns out that the style of Rust code I write is actually extremely similar to the style of JavaScript code that I write is just sometimes there are some tweaks. It is true that those features often do take up a lot of memory and/or rely on any sort of expensive, from a low-level perspective, way of doing things. But it turns out that's actually more of a function of the way that the programming language is made in semantics. You could design a programming language that feels very similar but as very different underlying characteristics. For example, Closures in Rust, the compiler is smart enough to know that if you don't actually capture an environment. Say you're going to add one to every number in a list. You want to do like .map, pass in a closure that takes one argument X and adds one to every single X and then collect that up into like the map join kind of thing, to collect into a new array. That closure that you had passed a map, while it's a closure, it's taking that one argument X and doing X + 1, so it's not really capturing an environment at all. There's actually no reason to allocate a bunch of extra memory because it turns out, it's the same thing as a regular function. The compiler is able to optimize that call away completely to the same thing as if it was a normal function and not a closure, and therefore, you're paying no overhead. Even though, like syntactically, it looks kind of like a closure. Then you're kind of think of that applied to almost everything in Rust. For example, Rust has methods but almost all of them are actually statically dispatched at compile time, as supposed to dynamically dispatched, where you need to look through some sort of object hierarchy because we don't really have inheritance. There's no way to say like this might result to a colon, this class or this class is super class, or this class is super class so I have to do this runtime look up to call functions that just doesn't actually really exist. Part of it is through the fact that these coding patterns don't strictly require this stuff. It's just the way those languages are built and part of it is because as we were building a language, we were extremely sensitive to not include features that would require this really heavy overhead. In a language, that's like a low-level of focus on details, it's extremely hard to talk about the details without code. There's a lot of details, it turns out. CHRIS: One thing that I'm very curious about and one of the things that drew me to Rust actually is the fact that its typesystem is, I guess an ML typesystem. It is like much more [inaudible] to something that you would see in a functional programming language like Haskell, than you would like a regular C++ or Java. CHARLES: Now, a Chris-acronym alert. What is an ML-style typesystem? CHRIS: I'm sure Steve can answer this better than I can but it's a typesystem that uses the Hindley-Milner algorithm for type inference. It does a lot of the heavy lifting for you, in terms of correctness. Is that correct? STEVE: Yeah, I would say more accurately, ML is a programming language. It's the name of the language so by saying like an ML-like typesystem, he means like a Java-type typesystem. It's like a similar statement but about a different language. I always forget what ML stands for specifically but like OCaml has got ML at the end so like OCaml is one of the languages that sort of the family of ML. There's like two branches of functional programming, which of course everything is wrong when you try to organize things this way. Like you could also argue Lisp as a third but there's kind of like the Haskell-style and the ML-style are these two big pillars of functional language stuff and Rust tends to be in the ML sort of family. There's lots of common features between families of programming languages and all that kind of stuff. I think the ultimate point that Chris is trying to make is when I say that Rust is a typesystem, I do not mean it's like Java. There is a wide variety of typesystems and they do all sorts of different things and actually Java has been getting increasingly better over the years as well. But it is much more canned to a functional language in the typesystem, which I think is what you were getting at and serves the actual question, right? CHRIS: Yeah. Actually, I just looked it up and ML stands for MetaLanguage. It is actually is going to serve my question really well. ML was originally designed for theorem improving in math, which is part of why it works really well in functional programming languages. But it also makes sense if you use Rust, how the compiler work from the kinds of things that it catches, like a relatively low effort on your part because it is originally designed to completely prove out a theorem so the compiler is doing that to your program. That leads to my question which is I recently heard someone else on the Rust core team talk about one of the things that Rust really seeks to improve upon is concurrency and parallelism, which is historically very hard. To do that, you could use things like mutexes or reference counting, which Rust has. But they also lean extremely heavily on the typesystem itself to sort of guarantee that your concurrent code is actually going to run safely. On one hand, I'm interested in hearing you expound on that but I'm also really curious how the C, C++, Java programmers take to that sort of thing in Rust because as I understand it, that is a pretty novel approach to that kind of problem. I wonder if there's like pushback from the existing low-level systems community on that stuff. STEVE: I'll do the second part first because it's a little simpler. One thing that I will say is we sort of didn't appreciate over time because we were creating Rust for ourselves, roughly the C++ programmers are working on Firefox, which we had to say for ourselves because I was not literally one of those people but you get the idea, is like assuming that C++ people would be the primary audience. But it turns out that a lot of people that programming C or C++ are pretty happy with it and they like doing things that way. They're a lot smaller of a population than the number of programmers who do not program of those languages, which is true for any language, basically. The sum of all other people is bigger than your specific thing. What that means, I think that in retrospect this seems obvious but at the time, it was like hard to figure out or I definitely did not understand this at that time, that most people would come to Rust from not C or C++ than they would from C and C++, just even by virtue of numbers alone. A lot of the people who are not doing it are not doing it for reasons. They've already rejected it for some sort of purpose and the people who are still doing it often are like happy with what's going on. There's definitely a little skeptical at times of the kinds of things that we can accomplish. Also, our success has been pushing C++ specifically to grow a lot of safety things so we hear a lot of people say like, "In five years, C++ is going to have this tooling that's going to make it also pretty safe, even if it's not as safe as Rust. I'll just wait for that instead." Surprise, low-level programmers are extremely conservative bunch in many instances. The first part, which is the bigger and more interesting one, the typesystem is absolutely how concurrency works in Rust. This is extremely powerful for a number of different reasons. The first one, and I think the fundamental reason why it's done this way is that typesystems don't have any runtime overhead. When you're in a performance-heavy language, that's really the key. Originally, a long ago in Rust, we actually had a garbage collector even, like a very long time ago in Rust. The primary goal was always safety and we thought the only way to accomplish that was with lots of runtime checking, heavy runtime, and all these things. Over time, as the typesystem grew, we realized we could use more and more of a typesystem to eliminate more and more of the runtime because types are checked to compile time so they have no overhead cost, which is awesome. Like Rust references, doing this validation that they're always valid is completely a compile time construct that at runtime, they're literally the same thing as C pointers. That's one reason why the typesystem is really heavily useful for concurrency because you want things to be safe. We also don't want to slow them down. The whole point of concurrency in many instances is to get a speed up. If you introduce too many safety checks to make sure that your concurrency stuff works, you lose all the gains that you were trying to get from being concurrent in the first place. Having that like as low-cost as possible is extremely important. The second one is that concurrent problems are extremely difficult to debug because you need to recreate the exact set of circumstances under which the bug happens. If you have a bug because you have two threads that have a particular access pattern on a particular variable and that's where the bug is introduced, good luck coercing your operating system scheduler into scheduling those two threads at exactly the same way as when the bug happens. To some degree of the way that you fix a lot of concurrency bugs is by introducing an extreme amount of logging and then just kind of let it run and praying that you hit into the situation that causes the bug. That really brutal and doesn't really work. By using the typesystem and verifying it upfront, you just know it will work at runtime because you've already proved the concurrency property before your code even runs. It's also just like a better debugging experience, I think in general. The way that we accomplish this task is extremely novel. I guess I should also say extremely novel to working programmers, like almost all Rust is built off of existing research that has been known in academia for a relatively long time. That's actually one of the places where it gets the name from, it's like taking ten-year old ideas that have a little bit of rust on them, that have found usefulness and bringing them to [inaudible] research. Anyway, the way we accomplish this basically is the typesystem in the standard library, the way that you spin up a new thread, it has a particular type signature and the type signature says, "Only allow the types to be sent to this new thread. There are safe to pass between threads," and/or like, "Only allow references between this thread and that thread of types that are safe to use across thread." What that means is that when you try to spin up a thread and you passes a thing that doesn't work, you get a typesystem error. It turns out this is not concurrent safe collection so it does not have the prerequisite types so therefore, you cannot pass on this thread and you're done. That's sort of like at a core level of how these things work. Then for example, mutex is a type that does have that property so by sticking with non-concurrency thing into a mutex, now you can share it safely. That means we've guaranteed that the compile time that you'd safely done this transfer between threads and that kind of thing. It's not just about mutexes but that's sort of the general approach. The last thing I want to say briefly because I just said a whole bunch of things. I'm sure, I've raised a ton of questions here is that the other powerful thing about using the typesystem for concurrency guarantees is that other people can extend it. If you write a library in Rust, your library will be exactly as concurrency safe as the standard library and as the language itself. It's not like we provide the set of concurrent collections and then we vetted our own implementations and then you're kind of your own or building your own stuff. You can use those exact same types to help guarantee properties on your stuff. Also build alternate threading situations, as well that use the same things and the ecosystem all works together so everything is just concurrency safe by default because it's like a property of typesystems that are being built into the runtime or something. CHRIS: I know that recently, there's been a lot of, I guess excitement about this library called Tokio. It's not like there's future that kind of like promises in JavaScript, then there have been abstractions just kind of consistently being built up but it seems like Tokio is the next step and it's building towards a whole stack of higher-level concurrency things. Is what you just said enables that kind of thing to happen? STEVE: Yes. Tokio is using those exact same typesystem features in order to guarantee that when you have a chain of promises, to use the JavaScript terminology instead of future things, that you make sure that they're safe. This is not literally implemented yet but Tokio, for those who are not paid hyper attention to the Rust space because this is a cutting-edge, the library is gearing up for an initial release in the next week or two. Soon after you hear this or maybe right before you hear this, it's just going to be released. It's extremely cutting edge. But in some ways it follows sort of the node model of concurrency. There's event loops, you chained together, we call them futures, you call them promises together, you put that pile a future chain and do an event loop and watch the concurrency kind of go. One example of how Rust can do cool things is you could -- this is not implemented yet but it will be in the future -- run, let's say, five event loops on five different threads. Then you just tell the framework, "Please run this future chain onto one event loop. I don't care which one," and then it will automatically load balance across the five threads and five event loops because you've guaranteed the compile time that everything is safe to pass between threads so we know that that's just trivial to do and therefore it's like not a big deal. We can add those heavy duty features without worrying about introducing very subtle bugs, which is really cool. CHRIS: That kind of leads me to my next question, which is at The Frontside, we are pretty into web development, in case you didn't know. I am someone who follow Rust a lot and I find it very interesting. But for the most part, I don't have a need to do systems programming on a regular basis. I also wouldn't even really know where to start, if I wanted to do systems programming. As I learned Rust, I tend to always gravitate towards wanting to do things that I would probably do in Ruby or Python, like write the back-end for some web app or something. That goes okay but Rust is very much still in the process of building those abstractions to the point that it's relatively digestible. So I have a couple of questions. One is do you see Rust being a thing that would be used by web developers a lot more broadly and two, how would you recommend that people like me who aren't really familiar with systems programming start to really dig into Rust on a deeper level? STEVE: I would like to think that web programmers will use Rust more often and to be honest, originally, I was extremely skeptical of this. But it's been changing rapidly as time has gone on. Part of that is because as we've gained more experience, actually in programming in Rust, the fact is Rust used to be a lot less ergonomic than it is and now it's fairly ergonomic and will only get more so in the future. That's something that web people or at least, I come from Ruby so Rubyist care a lot about ergonomics, maybe more than anything else frankly. I'm not sure it's the first tool that you'll reach for but I do believe that sometimes, it makes a lot of sense. As one example that I will use, there's not a whole lot about this but basically, npm has started using Rust on the server side for powering the registry. They have three services in production now but they were basically like JavaScript as a language we all know what is the best language for doing this. We have a service that needs a little more oomph so maybe let's rewrite that in Rust instead and use it for those kind of things. I think that there's a lot of situations for web developers where they don't realize they have the power to make things faster without just adding on more servers. I think that's kind of like a compelling sort of [inaudible]. Any sort of background job like any sort of job queue thing is like often better written in a faster language but you would not reach for that faster language first because traditionally, those faster languages have been terrible to use. I think we continue to win on the ergonomics and continue to win the libraries that web developers will reach for Rust like more often than not. In terms of the learning rest on a deeper level, I think that one of the initial things and sounds like maybe you personally are a little past that but maybe not the people who listen this podcast is that I do think that sort of building the things that you would normally build in Ruby or JavaScript or Python is the good first step. For example, right now Advent of Code has been like a really fantastic way of having these little programming projects. If you haven't seen AdventOfCode.com, it's like every day in December up until Christmas, there's a new programming project that you can build the thing in. I've been doing those in Rust and that's a lot of fun and it's a good way to practice and gain some basic literacy. But after that moving at a low-level stuff, my personal thing and I know something you've expressed interest in the past is my side project is building an operating system in Rust. More so, than just that the pitch is, "You've written JavaScript before. Let's write an operating system together. Here is this companion book and I'll show you how," and that's called intermezzOS. It's like I'm basically trying to rebuild an operating systems curriculum but in Rust instead from nothing, like we start off with assembly code and move up into Rust code. CHARLES: Now, you can't even use anything like all the things that we've been describing like threads, kernel level callbacks. You get none of that, right? You have to implement it all from scratch. You can't use POSIX or whatever. You know, 90% of your code ends up going through. STEVE: It turns out that and it's sort of like for reasons that hopefully I'll be able to fix in the future, you need about like 200 lines of assembly code before you get into Rust and then you basically don't need to use assembly again, really. It's not that big of a barrier in terms of [inaudible] things and its copy-paste stuff that I explained extremely heavily so it's like totally an accomplished real thing. Then you're in a real programming language and you can do more normal things on top of it. But one thing about that because it is my side project, the kernel is actually farther along than the tutorial is and I actually need to find some time to write more of the freaking tutorial but this is kind of my personal long-term project over the next, let's say, decade and to have a completely free and open source tutorial for you to learn about operating system developments. That's one of the things I've been doing. Another one that I think that is really extremely useful is once you gain some amount of literacy on this, you can actually start to learn more about how your regular programming language works. I've been giving this conference talk recently. It's called 'Exploring Ruby Through Rust', and I'm like, "Once you know this low-level stuff and you gain this literacy, you can look at the source code of your language as interpreter and learn stuff about it and you can contribute to it maybe even." Maybe that's not the most practical thing or whatever but now that I've spent a bunch of time with Rust, I understand Ruby on a far, deeper level than I ever did before because now I'm not afraid to go poke around in the internals and learn how it really works under the hood and I understand what those internals do far better. Maybe five years ago, I could have told you like, "Ruby is garbage collector. It's extremely basic. But I don't really know what that means." And now I can be like, "Ruby has this mark and sweep generational garbage collector. But it's not compacting or concurrent yet but maybe in a year or two. Now, that's not just a bunch of buzzwords because I have this low-level literacy." CHRIS: Yeah, that's definitely something. I forgot about but every time I go learn something in Rust and initially this happens a lot. Every time I do that and I go back to JavaScript or something else, I find that Rust inadvertently taught me something about the language that I actually work on every day. Especially, when it comes to things like references, values, and the difference between them and debugging weird prototype behavior in JavaScript became so much easier after I had spent some time working with Rust and had had to like actually deal with passing around references or dealing with life times or having the compiler yell at me for a lot of things that I thought were totally normal. Then I'm going back to JavaScript, it's like, "Wait a second --" Suddenly a lot of these pieces are starting to fit together and before what was just as weird mystery, now I can totally see what is happening and start to think about how to fix it. Even though I don't even have the same tools that I do with Rust, it still is extremely useful from that perspective. STEVE: That's awesome. I'm glad to hear it. That's how I definitely felt with Ruby for sure. CHARLES: You know, in terms of actually using it for day to day stuff, is there other plans, is the ecosystem already supporting things, say, a web framework? Like a low-level web framework like Sinatra or Express or even higher one like Rails. STEVE: I guess, like you've already qualified it as web stuff. But I would say, in a broader sense, whether or not Rust is ready today for you, it depends entirely on the ecosystem. I feel like 80% is productive in Rust as I did ever in Ruby. But that's only if there's a library that I don't have to rewrite myself because it doesn't exist yet. That number is actually growing rapidly so I just look because it's like the end of the year and our package ecosystem is actually doubles. This is a request from earlier. I didn't expect Cargo so Rust basically has bundler or yarn/npm built into the language itself. We distribute it with Rust and we have all that great package ecosystem shenanigans. Another great example of Rust over a language like C is the tooling. Basically, what happened was Yehuda and I kind of showed up in Rust world and we're like, "Why are you still using make files. We know a better way." And they're like, "Okay." Then he builds the equivalent of bundler for Rust. Then everyone's like, "Oh, yeah. This is way better. We're not using make files anymore." The tooling situation is very familiar to a dynamic programming language person because we literally had the same people write the tools. That also means you can share packages freely and briefly so operating system development thing is totally intense to be able to use your package manager to download packages to help you build an operating system. For example, X86 has custom assembly instructions that you need to use when interacting with the hardware and someone has already built a package on [inaudible] that wraps the inline assembly up in a nice to use Rust functions. I can just include that package and use it when building my operating system, which is totally mind-blowing. The npm is sort of feel into OS development is just real intense and cool. Back to the ecosystem thing, though. For web application specifically, it's good and also bad. There's actually multiple different web frameworks already at different levels of comparison. For example, you have Nickle which is kind of like Sinatra and you have Pencil, which is kind of like Flask and Python, which is also kind of like Sinatra. Then you have Iron, which is kind of like expressed in JavaScript. There's also like I know of at least two. One of is has been worked on but it's not been actually released. But the code is at least open source yet. I know a second that is being developed fully in private that has not had any public release yet. Then when the Tokio stuff comes out, People are going to be building new frameworks on top of the new async shenanigans and/or porting the async stuff into the existing frameworks. We kind of have a lot of options but there's also a lot of churn and activity and stuff going on in that space so that either terrifies you or makes you enthusiastic. They're basically is like that. We definitely don't have a Rails yet. I don't think that's because a Rails will never exist but because it's a much bigger project to build a Rails than to build a Sinatra. CHARLES: Yeah, and you just need those foundational pieces there in place before you really want to attempt that. STEVE: And I think Tokio is the real foundational piece and it's just taken us a long time to put it all together. The initial tests in Tokio, we could do a 'Hello, World' benchmark like the tech and power benchmark. Some of you are already familiar with those things, or not, they're like 'Hello, World' benchmark. We actually got faster than they are fat than all of them. It just edged out the fastest Java, which is currently the reigning benchmark on it. That's like extremely compelling. Even if after all this stuff is built on top of it but it's taken us a while to build those foundations and we're just getting that point like Tokio is going to have a release, hopefully before Christmas. I've been assured by the end of the year and then people are going to build stuff on top of it and it's just going to explode from there. Here's another little interesting pitch. I'll give you for this, is that one of the things I like about Rust on early ecosystem is it means that if you want to be that person who built the library that does X that everyone uses, there's lots of opportunity in Rust world right now. Where there's a lot of foundational libraries that you could be the person who wrote that thing when everyone knows and loves and uses. Like JavaScript is still kind of there. In Ruby, every library basically exists already so there's no more room to build a foundational thing. But if you're someone who likes working on open source and that story is compelling to you like getting involved in a younger ecosystem, it means that you can have a much larger impact. I maintained the [inaudible] library that things used. The only reason that's true is because I was around before we had one and then Yehuda wrote the initial version and now, I'm maintaining it. There's tons of space out there so if writing a web framework is the thing that's interesting to you, Rust is a great place to explore and actually doing that at the moment. CHARLES: Steve, one of the things that I know you do is you actually write the Rust Book. I heard that you're also in the process of rewriting it along with Carol Goulding, I believe. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that. STEVE: As part of this Steve getting the job right in the docs on Rust thing, I kind of working on lots of stuff so up to Rust 1.0, we knew we needed to have some long form explain all the things that Rust so that became what's called the Rust programming language which I named so because the C programming language and the C++ programming language, the names of the foundational books for those languages so I wanted to continue kind of in that tradition. But there is some problems with that which is I'll say that I'm a little harder on my own work than I think other people are so I hear people tell me all the time that they love the Rust Book and that it's like one of the best programming books that have ever written. But I think it's not that great. The reason why is also because I just know that the way in which I wrote it. You have to remember that Rust 1.0 happened in May of 2015. We were working on language for six or eight years before 1.0 happened so there was lots of changes, language is changing on a daily basis. Now, it's super stable like super, super, super stable. But what that also means is in some like deeper philosophical sense, nobody had had experience programming in what really was Rust yet because we were still like finishing building it's so like how do you write a book on a language that like the precursor language is what you're using and you're trying to see like what is it going to actually end up being like at 1.0. Because it's not like we can just say, "It's done. Now, go write a book, Steve and then we'll release it at that time." The circumstances in which I wrote the original book were I had a very intense deadline of this has to be done by the 15th of May. While the language was coming together, it takes a couple months to put together a book so I had to make sure that the stuff I was starting I would need to go back and re-fix. That also means that I was like much more vague in some places where pieces were still falling into place and you're like, "This is definitely going to be the same. But this might change so I'm going to leave that part off," and then I just have to plow through because the deadline. All those things coming together means that I kind of put together this book that while good and I'm proud of the work that I did, I can do much better. At this point in time, we now have a full year and a half after Rust 1.0 has come out. I know the struggles that people have when learning Rust. I know the ways in which they succeed or fail and I've talked to a lot of people so I'm sort of rewriting the book now, bringing that knowledge and understanding in as well as the fact that the language just been around for a minute so it's much easier. As part of that, I brought on Carol. She goes by Carol Nichols or Goulding. She both has her maiden name and her married name. She's been one of my best friends for a very long time so I'm extremely happy that she's my co-author on this book. The two of us together and working on doing the rewrite, I think that it is possibly the best thing I've ever done or worked on as far as books go, like I'm extremely happy with it and you can read it online right now, if you want to and see if I'm right or wrong about that. But I think it's a far better book than the original book was. It's actually going to publish at No Starch as well. We're donating all the proceeds to charities since we're being paid to actually write the book in the first place, like [inaudible]. It's going to be a much, much easier and better way to learn the language, I think as well. CHARLES: If we want to check that out, where can we find the new version? STEVE: I'll give you a link to put in show notes or whatever as well. But it's Rust-Lang.GitHub.io/book. There's also just like a book repo in the Rust Lang organization on GitHub. All things in Rust is being developed fully in the open so you can read the drafts and see what's been done where. We're getting towards the end, slowly but surely so I'm hoping that's going to be done relatively soon. CHRIS: Well, I'm looking forward to it. CHARLES: Fantastic. Sounds like the documentation is there. It's excellent. The community is there. It's excellent and from what I'm hearing like the kind of the tower of the ecosystem is really being built up. It's not as high as a bunch of other places but it's definitely high enough to jump in and get your feet wet. If you're you know coming from almost any walk of programming. STEVE: It's a lot of work but we seem to be doing good. CHARLES: All right. Well, thanks for stopping in and talking about this with us, Steve. STEVE: Thanks so much for having me. It's been a lot of fun. CHARLES: Yeah, and now Chris, we do need to kind of figure out what is going to be our Rust project here at The Frontside. CHRIS: I'm up for that challenge. CHARLES: Yeah, that'll be some Christmas homework. All right-y. Take care everybody and thanks, as always, for listening. We'll see you next week.

Steve: Hey, everyone. This is Steve Larsen and welcome to Sales Funnel Radio.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business, using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. (music ends)   Steve: All right you guys. Hey, I am super excited. Today I've got two very special, kind of unique guests on the podcast. As you guys know, a lot of times, I record my own thoughts on things that Russell and I are doing to make marketing awesome, but I like to go and interview other people as well. Today I've got on the show with me, it's Dallin Greenberg and Kristian Cotta. These guys have a pretty awesome unique way for building funnels. Anyways, I want to welcome you. Thanks for joining me.   Dallin: Appreciate it.   Kristian: What up.   Steve: Hey. I actually was thinking about it and Dallin, I don't even remember how we actually met. It wasn't that long ago, was it?   Dallin: Ah, no, not very. Just a couple weeks.   Steve: Just a couple weeks ago.   Kristian: I think Dallin met you the way that him and I kind of joke about he's the black box back alley hacker. He does all the ...   Dallin: If there's someone I want to meet, I find a way.   Kristian: He's the unconventional guy. You won't find his practices in a book or a manual.   Steve: Crap, that makes me a little nervous.   Dallin: Yeah, don't mess ... I told Kristian the other day ...   Kristian: Not black hat, black box.   Steve: Yeah. We can call it whatever we want, right? No, just kidding.   Kristian: Yeah.   Steve: Well, hey thanks for-   Dallin: I told Kristian, the other ... Oh, I'm sorry.   Steve: No, no, you get a say. Thanks for letting me wake you up at the butt crack of dawn and still being willing to share some cool stuff.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: How did you guys start meeting or working with each other?   Kristian: I'll let Dallin take that one.   Dallin: Yeah. I was working on a kind of unique project. We had a guy up in Scottsdale that owns a software. He's the developer. It's a software that does algorithmic stock trading and he was stuck with his marketing. He's a big guy. He's got a lot of stuff going, but anyway, we were trying to help him get some plans going.     I had actually watched Kristian on Periscope. I'd met a lot of guys on Periscope and one day I noticed Kristian was actually in Chandler, which is only a few miles away from me. Like I said, if I see someone, I'm going to find a way to meet him, so I'll comment in his Periscope a few times and little by little, end up getting his contact info. Day later we're in a Starbucks together talking about a plan that we can do, well I was more impressed with Kristian, what he was doing. My partner that I was working on with this marketing plan for this software developer, we were on kind of different pages. I have a background in sales and Kristian's dynamic was a little more my still, so my partner ended up leaving and I ended up asking Kristian, "Hey, is there anything on the side that you're working on or that I think we can do together?"   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Badda bing badda boom. We've ... I feel like it's the perfect love story. We've been hanging out pretty much ever since.   Steve: As long as he says the same thing, I guess that is true, right?   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah, no. The funny thing, Steve, about Dallin is I'd been with ClickFunnels, I was one of the first 50 people that signed up for the beta version of ClickFunnels.   Steve: Wow. You're from the dark ages, Man, that's awesome.   Kristian: Dude. Yeah. We were just talking yesterday because we literally I mean the crazy part ... I'd been so resistant to start using Actionetics.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Until I had to transfer from Infusionsoft to AWeber, AWeber to ActiveCampaign and we're trying to do something and it's like, "Dude, why don't we just use Actionetics?" It's all in here." I'm like, "Fine." We're switching everything over and I needed ... I'd been doing funnels and learning about ... like when I first signed up for ClickFunnels, I didn't know what a funnel was. I wasn't even sure what Russell had explained to me. It just sounded so cool and I was like, "Dude, I'm going to figure this thing out because what he's talking about and the numbers, I'm like, "That's what I need to be doing. That's it." I been doing this for two and a half years, which is kind of a long time in funnel years.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, it is.   Kristian: It's not really that long of a time in regular terms, but I got on Periscope and started kind of talking about my business. At the time, I was trying to grow this fitness, be an online fitness guy.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I'd used funnels to grow an email list of 3,500 people and I got on to Periscope and nobody cared about the fitness. They wanted to know how I was growing my email list and how I was doing my, how was I doing this business.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: Then I kind of became one of the funnel guys on Periscope and was a speaker at the Periscope Summit. I got this notoriety on Periscope for, they call me the King of Funnels. I'm like, "No, guys. I know some really big funnel guys on Periscope." They're like, "No, King of Funnels."   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: It's been like two and a half years of this little journey of learning funnels where it's been ... I'll tell you the three guys I credit everything to are Russell, Todd Brown and [Lo Silva 00:06:09].   Steve: Mmm.   Kristian: I actually had just finished the PCP coaching program with Todd Brown and those guys. Dallin, when he came to me was like, "Dude, this stuff you're talking about is awesome." I said, "Well, let's, I need a guy that gets it. That is driven and ... " that was Dallin. Now we've got this little, little agency we're trying to scale.   Steve: That's awesome, because good partners are hard to find. I remember I started doing this back in college. My buddy and I were driving traffic for Paul Mitchell and we were doing all this stuff. I ended up firing, going through nine different partners. It's cool that you guys found each other, you know what I mean? That's pretty rare just right there.   Kristian: Yeah. If you go back and talk about Dallin's ... there's a couple of key things that I was looking for, because I have an entire course. You love Periscope. I saw some of your Periscopes on YouTube and ...   Steve: Dang it. Man, those were the new days for me.   Kristian: Yeah. I was a speaker at the Periscope Summit in January.   Steve: Cool. Wow.   Kristian: Dallin's helped me develop this program and it's something that we've rolled out in beta and we're going to roll out as a digital product. It's called the Live Video Funnel. I've been working with Todd Brown and the guys at MFA on the entire sequence and the packaging and all that kind of stuff. They're calling Kurt [Malley 00:08:00] speaking at Marketing Funnel Automation Live in October and one of the things they're saying is that the biggest opportunity of 2017 is, they call it the Facebook Live Funnel, but I'm going to let you guys in on a little note. Facebook Live and Periscope don't work the same way. Even though they're both live video, they're different, so Dallin ... I needed somebody to help me with that aspect. I couldn't ... to be honest, you know this Steven,   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I couldn't do all that, every single thing, every single aspect of a funnel.   Steve: No.   Kristian: The script writing, the copy writing, the editing, the videos for the VSL's, the strategy, the email marketing sequences, all the social media.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: What I'm really good, compliments what Dallin's really good at, like I said, his ability to get in on Facebook and recruit people. He has this really strong sense about building a team, which is one of those things that ... we both get along with people, but Dallin's good at that recruitment process. When you want to build and scale something and you need the right people, you need somebody like that.   Steve: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, it's hard to find that stuff. Dallin, you and I, we were talking a little bit about some of the trials you guys went through. Obviously individually you do, but you guys met each other, what have you guys been working on and I guess what was the ... What are some of the issues you guys have run on, I guess, getting to where you are. You know what I mean?     Unspoken stories, you know that where none of us put in our marketing hardly ever unless it's part of our sales letter. "I was in the dumps, but now I'm flying high." These are like, really what kind of issues did you guys run into what you're doing now? What are you doing now, first of all?   Dallin: Well, the majority of our issues actually are from more individual sides. We're actually doing really good with our projects together.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Your typical issues you run in together are testing. That's what funnels are, right, it's testing, testing, testing, testing. There's always that down side until you ... it's just a numbers game, right, until you find something that works. As far as the personal side, because I believe that this kind of runs, this is the fire that's on the inside, the Y factor from what I call it, right. My background's in sales, so I did door-to-door for years. I think, Steven, you've mentioned that you flirted with that a little bit but, I was really good at it.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. That's like, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's one of the best educations I've ever had.   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Steve: I've got a marketing degree and I don't know what I learned from it. You know?   Dallin: Well, that's actually just what I was going to say. I was going to school for business and marketing and be honest, my classes were super redundant. I hated them. I was like, "Man, this is for years I've been planning on doing this and ... " Anyway I got into sales and I did pretty good at it. I just kept going. I ended up doing more recruiting and for six, seven years going out on the summers and taking a team out and helping manage and recruit and sell.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: You learn so much from just talking to people, the sale cycle, funnels, a different type of funnel, right?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Learning how to build value to the point where it doesn't matter what you ask for money, because they love it so much that they're going to buy. It taught me a lot. Well, long story short, I made my transition. I was doing alarms and home automation. I made my transition with this solar boom.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Solar's on fire and fortunately for us, we live in Arizona, one of the sunniest places in the world. Solar was hot, but a lot of stuff was happening politically. A lot of the utilities are trying to shut down solar here just because of different costs. It's a mess. They succeeded and actually the utility ... There's two main utilities in Arizona. They succeeded shutting down solar where I live.     In order for me to get work, I'd have to go an hour a day just to prospect clients, let alone keep my pipelines, my relationships, my contracts, everything going, because they're longer projects. It was really funny because I was really bummed because I was really excited about this transition. It was a huge jump for me because we were so comfortable with what we were doing, making awesome money and it was kind of just this really big leap of faith. Well, last April, fast forward a little bit, last April, our little girl, our daughter, she was four years old. She got diagnosed with leukemia.   Steve: Oh man.   Dallin: When that happened, we literally were going to leave for another summer, two days after she was diagnosed. It was crazy. Everything was just happening and days and days and days sitting in the hospital. I had always wanted to do something online my whole life, but I didn't want to ... I didn't know exactly what was happening. I didn't know where I wanted to put my foot in. I didn't want to mess with inventory and selling one off things. I wanted to do something on a big level. I just didn't know how to do it.     In the hospital you got a lot of time to yourself and so I'd study these things. I'd start looking at different processes. I'd find patterns. I would sign up for everyone's email list, not because I cared about their product. I wanted to see their system. I wanted to study the funnel. I wanted to study the email sequences and I started seeing the patterns.     That's when I kind of got into a lot of this other stuff with Periscope and live stream. I was like, "Man, this is the future. I get it." I think every guy that's doing any sort of digital marketing has a day where they, it kind of clicks and they say, "Holy smokes. I can really ... This is powerful. This is how you can reach a lot of people." What everyone wants to do is have a voice and do something.     I ended up switching my major, going to school for persuasion and negotiations were my sayings. I was a business communication major and I had that emphasis in persuasion and negotiation. Looking back on everything now, it was just perfect. Everything kind of worked out really, really good. I was kind of like, my little side, so we really hit this kind of rock bottom where it was like ... financially we took a massive hit because I wasn't able to go out, drive an hour and do all this kind of stuff. This last year-   Steve: Yeah. You needed to be home. Yeah.   Dallin: This last year has really been an investment of my time and I just kind of feel like I went back to school. I feel like I'm getting way more out of this school than four years of collegiate, right?   Steve: Easily. Man, how's your daughter now? If you don't mind me asking.   Dallin: She's awesome. She's in a maintenance phase right now, got another year left of treatments, but she's ... hair's back and muscles coming back and went back to school. She's in a really, really good spot right now. Appreciate it.   Kristian: She's strong too. You should see her.   Steve: Really?   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: That's amazing.   Dallin: It's from everything that she went through. She got down to, had to relearn to walk, lost all her muscles. She was a little skin and bones and now she's this little muscle ball.   Kristian: Now she's a beast.   Dallin: She's awesome.   Steve: I appreciate you guys sharing that kind of stuff. I mean it's ... because most of the ... I've never interviewed anyone on this who hasn't gone through something crazy, you know. It's not like the path is always clear, either. Usually it isn't.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: There's a lot of times I wake up and come here, I'm like, "I don't even know. I know I got to work on something, but I don't know what." It's like going through this hazy fog, so I appreciate that. Then there's all the personal side and all the things going on. Yeah, I first started getting into this stuff, little bit similar with door-to-door sales. I started looking around going, "What the heck?" We're driving out and there's all these billboards everywhere. I was like, "People call these things ready to buy." I'm knocking on people's doors all day long and they're not wanting to buy it when they wake up. I've got to go convince people who weren't planning on spend money. Like, "How do I do this?" I start putting ads everywhere and that's how I started getting phone sales and stuff. I was like, "There's something to this." Anyways, I-   Dallin: See, that's funny because I was kind of the same person. All the other managers are, "Dallin, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It works."   Steve: DS, yeah.   Dallin: DS, this. I'm like, "No, guys. There is a better way." My motto in everything in life is there is always a better way. I don't care what you say and what's working. Something can be tweaked and something can be done to scale.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.   Kristian: Which is funny, because Russell always says, "You can tell the pioneers because they're lying face down with arrows in their back."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I guess in this case, it wasn't really pioneering. You were trying to find the people laying face down.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: Side stepping all the other people who were already face down because they knocked 400 doors that day, right?   Dallin: Yeah, seriously.   Steve: What are you guys working on right now though? You guys mentioned that there's some awesome things going on. What's your current funnel, if you don't mind talking about that? [inaudible 00:18:19] sounds like, maybe ...   Kristian: Dallin said like perfect timing. I feel like it has been. We joke about being a startup because ultimately we are, to the point that we're even in the process of creating our business plans and our SOP's and all that kind of stuff, so that we can talk to some investors. We have some investors that we're talking to in order to really have the capital that we think we need to be able to scale this thing quickly, instead of Facebook ads tested at $10 a day for 50 weeks.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. The whole reason I got into learning funnels was, you guys talked about door-to-door sales and I have 15 years of commercial real estate experience. I worked with clients like L.A. Fitness and McDonald's. I represented McDonald's for the state of Arizona and Burger King and Taco Bell, so pretty big name companies.     There's a lot of guys that would be happy with that, but the problem I had was that I kept looking at the deal size of what I was doing. It was constantly kind of like this feast or famine situation where you either had a huge check or you had nothing. Literally, nothing. It kind of got to the point where I was like, "Man, there's a better way to do this." Very similar. You guys hear the consistent theme here? There's a better way.     That was kind of the first step of me saying, "I'm going to figure out how to streamline this" so that it wasn't even so much ... I just kept seeing all the guys that were buying the properties doing all these big deals. They weren't even in real estate. They had these other businesses that were generating cash flow and here I am putting these deals together that are making, Dallin and I had this exact conversation, making these guys over a million dollars and they're like, "Oh hey, thanks. Here's 40 grand."   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: What's wrong with this equation? I'm the one that did the whole thing, the financials and all that. I just didn't have the money. That was the start of it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Then you add on top of it that we got into a network marketing company and did really well, but we got stuck right under about 10 grand a month for like 18 months. It turned into another full time job where I was 40, 50 hours a week at every Starbucks from east to west meeting people. I'm like, "This is not working."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Those two combined, I was like, "If I get online, I can figure out how to do both of these. I don't have to pick because I can leverage myself."   Steve: That is kind of the funny thing I learned about ... because I got into an MOM. I went and did exactly what my upline was saying. Got 13 people my first move.   Kristian: Oh, wait, your [inaudible 00:21:42] not duplicatable.   Steve: No. Not at all.   Kristian: I don't care. If I find enough of the right people, it won't have to be.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. My first month, I recruited 13 leeches. Man, they wouldn't do a dang thing unless I was like pushing them in the back with a cattle prod. I was like, "Ah. There's got to be a better way to do this." That's why I took it online and did a lot better. I definitely relate with that.   Kristian: Yeah. The crazy part about this is, like Dallin was saying, he's, shoot, some of the advanced strategies ... Dallin's has this like ... he understands and can see what the outcome is that we're trying to do. He gets it. He gets the whole flow and process of this, of how funnels work. He's been studying them. I just think for a big part, he just needed to connect certain pieces and be able to see what's going on behind the scenes that you can't see online.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We talk about ... the hardest part about knowing how to do funnels is focusing because when you understand it and it clicks and you realize what you can do, it's like .... Someone starts talking you're like, "Oh my God. I know how to make money with that. Oh my God."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's like entrepreneurial ADD exacerbated.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Forget entrepreneurial ADD. This is like an entrepreneurial ADD addiction.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: That's the issue, so we've had to get very focused on okay what's the quickest and most pressing thing at the moment that we can make money with, so that we can reach our long term goals. Like I said, Lo Silva is one of the guys that I credit a lot of what I learned from. There's three little things that I take from them and that's think big, start small, scale fast.   Steve: Interesting. Think big, start small, scale fast.   Kristian: Yeah, that's kind of our little mantra.   Dallin: Yeah. That leads into basically what we're doing now. Our whole plan without getting too much into detail is we have a very, very big picture. Just like a funnel, we have our personal value ladder. Our big picture is more in investments, real estate, things like that. Those are our high tickets. Right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: For the time being, we need to make sure that we couple that with clients, so we have our lead gen system, our agency that's doing multiple things, SCO work and funnels, and social media strategies and management and that way it can help us scale. Our agency essentially fronts the bills and I guess the best way to put it is we want everything that we do to be self-sufficient. If we build something, the entire goal-   Steve: Keep it in hands.   Dallin: Well, yes and no. The entire thing is for that project to sustain itself, so you understand once you get going with your Facebook marketing and such, it gets to the point where you reinvest X amount back into it. Then it lives, it breaths on it's own kind of. It just needs to be monitored, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: If we have this solid balance between us of we have clients coming to us for done-for-you services, that's awesome. That's cash. That keeps us busy. That keeps workers of ours busy. Then in the meantime, if we can couple that with 40, 50% of our other time for in-house projects, because Kristian and I already have entrepreneurial ADD, we're always thinking of ideas. We always have something going on or a lot of times a client that comes in has something that sparks an idea.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: We'll, like you said, we'll keep them in-house and then we funnel them. We get them to the point where they self-sustain and all of a sudden, we have our house projects, our client projects and it's just a very healthy business model. You don't see a lot of very sustainable and scalable models. You know what I mean?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Especially, because I've been with very, very, very big companies with these companies I've sold for and you find ... one of the things I like to do is study patterns and development. I'm really into the business development side of things. You look at the ones that have made it, that have succeeded and that are scaled to the massive, massive billion dollar companies and that's kind of what they do. They make sure they have kind of that happy medium, that solid balance in all these different areas and factors and that's kind of what we're trying to do.     One of the projects we're working on right now is a political campaign funnel. This is just one that's easy to scale and we're just pretty much hacking it and taking advantage events which one of the things coupling social media with funnels is current events, man. That's, they kill. If you can find something trending and good and that has ... that you can milk for a long time, you better believe we're going to find a way to make, pinch money out of it, right.   Steve: Yeah. Isn't it the-   Dallin: I'll let Kristian talk about that.   Steve: The political campaign funnel, is that the one you downloaded I think from Sales Funnel Broker?   Kristian: Ah, no.   Steve: Maybe that was you, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. There's some guy, he downloaded it and came back and he's like, "This is the coolest thing ever." I was like, "Just the share [funnel 00:27:53] free one I got from someone else. Glad you like it."   Kristian: Yeah, no. I got the idea from actually from Funnel ... I got part of the idea from Funnel U. To be honest, as much as we know about funnels, something clicked when I watched Russell's video inside the membership site for the political bridge funnel, where it was like, "I see it." It was that coupled with the, the funnel stacking I got that whole idea of moving them from a front end funnel to a webinar funnel to a high ticket and how you stack those.   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: Bridging and when all the sudden the bridging made sense to me, I said, "Oh my God." Just like what Dallin was talking about here. Ultimately our goal is to, take the same amount of time to do all this work to go and work with somebody and do a commercial real estate transaction, where we're an investor or we're buying the property and people are investing with us, as it does to sell a t-shirt. Just time is time, it's just the size of the value and how you frame your mind around it. We are in the process of growing our agency. The whole point of it is to, if you think of construction companies, really good construction companies constantly have work that's in place to keep their employees working, so that they have the best team, right.   Steve: Mmm. Yeah.   Kristian: That's what they're always talking about is we just have to keep work so we can keep these guys busy. It's not about keeping them busy, but we also want to have the team in place because ultimately when we have our ideas, we can get them shipped quicker.   Steve: Yeah. I've been approached by a few people lately and they're like, "I got these awesome guys. I absolutely love them." He's like, "What work do you have? I just don't want them to go anywhere else." He's like, "I don't care what it is. I just got to bill."   Dallin: That's exactly what it is.   Steve: Yeah, interesting.   Kristian: Yeah. That's the idea, but to get back to what we're doing right now is I got the idea of how Russell explained the political bridge and my dad had ordered 100 t-shirts from my best friend. My best friend did all the screen printing for the Super Bowl in Santa Clara.   Steve: Jeez.   Kristian: He's got one of the largest screen printing companies on the west coast, based here in Phoenix. He has a company very similar to what Trey Lewellen started with Teespring.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: He's set in and he came to us and said, "Hey, why don't you partner with me and just handle the marketing on this." He's talked to me about doing some marketing for them for different aspects of their company. Now we're working together and the whole idea came up I said, "Well, you know what? I think I can do it." Before I was hesitant because I was like, "Well, I'm in the digital media space. I'm selling digital products." That was big hangup was I've got to sell to these entrepreneurs.     Then when this political bridge funnel that Russell talked about when he talked about how you move people from this list to this list, I went, "Oh my God. I can build a list in anything. I can just bridge them." It was a combination of that video inside of Funnel U and my participation in Todd Brown's PCP, Partnership Coaching Program, where they were really working on educational based marketing, and script and copy writing. The confidence level in my own ability to write copy had shifted to where now MFA is outsourcing some of their done-for-you client work to Dallin and I and having me write copy and script for their video sales letters.   Steve: What?   Kristian: Yeah.   Dallin: That's real, man.   Kristian: That tells you the ...   Dallin: We scale fast. Remember that third principle. We scale fast.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I wrote all those down. That's amazing. What's funny is that people don't realize that it literally is the exact same amount of work to do a small company as a big one.     My buddy, I mean as far as building a funnel and things like that, my buddy and I were building an [inaudible 00:32:11]. It was the first funnel I ever built with ClickFunnels and it was a smartphone insurance company and we were ... we got out of that for a lot of reasons, but it was interesting though because I was building it. We put it all out. That's actually when I got into ClickFunnels and it was right after ClickFunnels left beta. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to build this whole thing out before my ClickFunnels trial runs out." I'd never built one and I just killed myself for the next little while. We got it out.     Then this guy approaches me in Florida. He's like, "I need a funnel for some of my ..." He was selling water ionizers or something. I was like, "Oh man. This is a big company. They're already making a couple million a year." I was blown away. I was like, wait, this is the same exact amount of work as it was for the small little startup. Anyways, I thought that was interesting you said that.   Kristian: Yeah. That's what we talk about is that it's easier to work with those bigger companies. They get it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: You work with the smaller companies and they're worried about how much money it's going to cost them. The reality is that the more we put ourselves in a position to work with guys like you and Russell and guys like Todd and Lou Coselino and David Perriera and all them at MFA, they're saying, "Man, why are you, how come you're not charging double and triple?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Dallin and I are sitting here like seriously if they're willing to pay us to write scripts for, to outsource their ad copy to us for some of their client work, what's that say? I mean, we're literally working with, doing work for the guys that are considered the best in the industry.   Steve: That's ... Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: It's just a mindset shift is what it is. That has made it a little easier to have a conversation with someone and say, "You know what? We can take on this project. Here's how much it is."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: They're like, sticker shock. Well, sticker shock. You can go and just have someone build the pages for you, but it's not going to convert. I know that for a fact because copy os what converts, right.   Steve: You know Tyler Jorgensen?   Kristian: You know what, it sounds familiar. I think I-   Steve: He said the same thing to me. He's like, "You charge 10 grand to build a custom funnel?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Why not 15?" I was like, "I don't know. I'd never thought about that before." I thought 10 was kind of the mark. He's like, "No, no, no, no. I'd do 15, 20, 25." I was like, "You've got to be kidding." That is is just a mindset shift. You'll get better people to build for anyways, whatever it is.   Kristian: The big thing for us-   Dallin: True and at the same time ...   Kristian: Yeah, I don't know.   Dallin: You there?   Kristian: Yeah, you cut-   Steve: Kind of lost you there.   Kristian: The big thing for us is really to build a team, Steve, and to have that team in place and be able to have people that focus on all the different areas of the funnels, so that they get really, really good at that. They don't have to know the whole process because that's what I've spent the last two and a half years doing, right.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: They can be part of this and be part of building something and helping these clients and really enjoy what they're doing. Then, like I said, when we have these ideas we can ship them. I know you want to know and your audience probably wants to know what it is that we're doing, which is what got you in. I mentioned my friend, Bryant. He's got this company like Teespring. He's got everything in place to roll this out. We had this idea for how to start doing that. We took advantage of knowing that the campaigns going on right now. I mentioned to you I think my dad bought like 100 Trump t-shirts from him. I was like, "Those are really cool shirts." My dad's like, "Yeah, man You should do this funnel stuff and figure out how to sell these to everyone. Look how crazy everyone is about Trump. Trump's going to kill it." At the time, it was still in the Republican Primaries. I'm like, "Well, I don't want to go build a funnel."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: "Then trump doesn't win the primaries." But as he started pulling away I'm like, "Oh, let's start testing some stuff." We tested one funnel and surprisingly the Facebook campaign got a lot of clicks, but there wasn't a lot of opt-ins and conversions on the funnel. What it did and I think this is one of the biggest skill sets that people who are elite develop versus people that are frustrated and saying this isn't working for me is understanding the information that they're getting and what to do with it. You might not have a winning campaign or a funnel that's making money, but to understand what kind of info you're getting and how to use that to do the next thing is that whole testing process is what separates those that are killing it from those that are getting killed. That first funnel that we did, didn't make money. Not at all.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I mean it lost $1,200. I went to Dallin and I said, "Dude, this is awesome." He's like, "Huh?" I said, "Look at the retargeting list that we got." Then we went and we tweaked this and I said, "What if we change the front end," and at that time Mike Pence had just been named Trump's VP. I'm like, "Who the hell is Mike Pence? I never heard of this guy before." I started asking people, they're like, "No." Unless you're from Indiana, you don't know who Mike Pence is. I go, "Should Trump have picked Mike Pence? Isn't there someone else." I'm like, "Boom. Is there a vice presidential debate in the Republican Party?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We created a little mini survey around is Mike Pence the right one. First of all, you've got all these people that love Trump and they're hardcore republicans and now you're creating an internal debate. Everyone wants to voice their opinion, but they don't want to be judged.   Steve: Yeah. People get pretty intense about that for sure.   Kristian: Yeah. We created a mini survey.   Dallin: Oh yeah.   Kristian: We created a mini survey and we had this retargeting list from the first time and we started running ads. I didn't expect and I don't think Dallin either, that it was going to do as well as it did, but I mean, we had in less than 12 hours, we had 500 email opt-ins.   Steve: What? Oh my gosh.   Kristian: I was like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "Holy crap." I'm like, "What the hell's going on?" Of course the first goal is to try and get the funnel to break even. What we had to do was we were getting so much information so quickly that we really had to be on our toes and make adjustments and modifications. What we figured out through the first week of testing this is there's so much activity on this funnel. Just to give you the stats, after what was Dallin, really 6 days of running the ads, we got 2,600 email subscribers?   Dallin: Five and a half, yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. Five and a half days, we got 2,600 email subscribers.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: K, the funnels not at break even, but here's what I want whoever's listening and whoever wants to take this information understand is the testing process. We figured out between two front end offers-   Steve: Which one was the winner.   Kristian: Which one's working better.   Steve: Yeah. Which one's the awesome one. Yeah.   Kristian: It's still not winning. Our free plus shipping is not, it's not helping us break even. The reason for that is because we're getting so many opt-ins. On a normal free plus shipping, you're not getting as many people clicking on the ads, right.   Steve: Right.   Kristian: Well, we're getting 5, 6 times the amount of people subscribing to the email-   Steve: Would you, in that scenario, would you ever try and get even less people. It'd be counter-intuitive maybe, but I would just start tweaking the free plus shipping, I guess.   Kristian: No. No. Well, no. We can't-   Dallin: The strategy-   Kristian: Yeah. We can't really tweak it because it's not like we're going to offer anything cheaper than free plus shipping. When you start looking at all the different things we can offer, there's not a lot of options, but here's what Dallin and I have figured out is that we think we've created a new funnel. It's not really new in the sense of what you and I and Russell and all these other guys think of.   Steve: True.   Kristian: In terms of Russel and [Daygin Smith 00:41:29] coming up with the black box funnel, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's just soft offer funnel, a front end soft offer. We think that we've come up with what we call a backdoor funnel.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: You get so many people on your email list. You get as many people to take the first offer and you get as many people to take your upsell as possible to figure out how close to break even you can get. If you look at 2,600 people, we go back and look at the numbers, only about 115 of those 2,600 ever saw the offer.   Steve: Huh.   Kristian: Now we have an opportunity to present those people with the offer again. Well, how do you do that in a way that's going to get a lot of people to open the e-     All right. Want me to ...We cut off here at the point of high dramas. As I was mentioning, we got so many email subscribers and such a lower number based on the email subscribers because we didn't expect to have that many, that we still weren't at break even, but we have a ton of people that we can show an offer to. It's a little different obviously because our price points ... We're doing apparel and things like that.   Steve: It's like delaying the offer almost on purpose, right. I mean this is ... awesome.   Kristian: Yeah. Remember, we started this whole thing with a survey, right, something that people were very passionate about, so a lot of polarity in there. They want their opinion-     They also want to know what everyone else thinks, where they fall in line here. We thought, "Oh my God. Somebody that votes, that voices their opinion, takes the time to put a vote in wants to know what the results are." We created a results page that shows them the results and has a special offer that all those people haven't seen. When we send it in the email and we tell them here's the results of the survey, the open rates are and the click through rates are sky high.   Steve: How long are you waiting to actually send them this results page?   Kristian: A couple of days, so-   Steve: Oh really. Wow.   Kristian: Yeah. I mentioned Actionetics. The whole reason that we started doing this is because we wanted to ... since we're having people take a survey and we're offering them this gift, we want to make sure we get as many people that take us up on that gift for taking the time to vote. We have a few of those triggers built in there, "Hey, don't forget to grab your free gift. We noticed you took the time, maybe something happened. Go back here and grab your gift." Then we make sure that everybody sees the results page a couple of days later.   Steve: A couple of days. That definitely is a different style for sure. You don't think that hurts conversions at all?   Kristian: No, I mean. It's a survey, right?   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: The point of high drama and the suspense and all that. We're still testing it, again, like I mentioned earlier that the biggest thing I think that separates those that are successful and those that aren't is to understand the type of information that you get.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We may found out that we need to send the results sooner, but we don't know. We've got to test.   Steve: It's interesting positioning too of you saying, "Hey. It look's like. Thanks for taking it. Here's your results. I don't know if missed this, but just jump back and get that." That's interesting. Like they missed it. They missed the gift.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. "You forgot to grab your gift." That's our first step and then in the email that comes after they've taken the survey, "Hey, we're in the process of tallying up the results. We'll send them to you as they're updated."   Steve: Interesting. It keeps the loop open, basically.   Kristian: Hmm-hmm(affirmative). Exactly. Exactly.   Steve: Man, that's awesome. Well, hey is there a URL that we can go check that out on? I don't want to pollute or dilute any of your stats, so if not that's fine, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. We're just running ads to this right now.   Steve: Good.   Kristian: We're in the process of, like I said, this was just an idea that my dad came up with. I've got to give him credit for the initial idea, but now it's turned into kind of a new business entity, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We're growing this email list and the concepts that Russell talks about the how to bridge funnels and lists and things like that. We're starting to build a list now in that republican, conservative, survivalist category. We're going to take it a step further and build out a home page and start doing some different stuff with it.   Steve: That's interesting. You're going to go through and who's going to keep opening all the emails over and over again, looking at all the stats of all the people around. These are the hyper active political caring people. You know what I mean? That's awesome. That's a really clever way to segment out those people. That's fantastic.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. You never know where your next business entity is going to come from.   Steve: Interesting. Gosh, well, hey, I know we've been on quite a while. Thanks for dropping all the bombs of gold you guys did. I don't know what happened to Dallin, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. He just texted, said thank you. He's trying to get back on, but I know we've got to take the kids to school and stuff, so-   Steve: Awesome. Well, hey man, I appreciate it. Thank you so much and this was awesome.   Kristian: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it, Steve. Love meeting new people that are doing the same thing as us and glad that we can reach more people that are trying to learn how this works and kind of help them understand the process and that if they just stick at it and keep testing. That's really the big thing I think is testing and learning is how you get better at it.   Steve: You're kind of a scientist going through this, for sure. Going in an industry you know will make money obviously, but whatever you're doing specifically, you might almost always be the first. The think big, start small and scale fast. That's huge.   Kristian: Yeah. If anyone wants to connect with us, Dallin and I are both on Facebook. We mentioned Periscope. I do a lot of broadcasting on there with what I call the Live Stream Marketing Funnel Show. We're rolling, if people are interested in learning how to use live video, we've got that coming out. Yeah. Connect with us on social media. Kristian Cotta and Dallin Greenberg.   Steve: Okay, yeah. Then you've got the Health Success Podcast. Guys, go check him out at Health Success Podcast as well as he said Live Stream Marketing?   Kristian: Well. Yeah. Just go to KristianCotta.com. It'll take you right there.   Steve: Cool. Awesome.   Kristian: Kristian with a K.   Steve: Kristian with a K. Cotta, right?   Dallin: I'm in.   Kristian: Kristian with a K. Cotta. Dallin's in here. He just got back in.   Dallin: Dude, I don't know what happened. I was getting all excited what Kristian was saying and then just cut off.   Kristian: It's the point of high drama, that's what we were talking about.   Dallin: I know. It was. That's what I told Amy. Is it over?   Steve: It is now.   Kristian: Yeah. We're just wrapping it up.   Steve: Awesome.   Dallin: Sorry.   Steve: It's good. Hey, thanks guys so much.   Kristian: All right. Take care, Steve.   Dallin: See you man.   Steve: All right. Bye-bye.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Thank for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answered on the show? Get your free t-shirt when your question gets answered on the live Hey Steve Show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question. (music ends)

Episode 114: The Working Actor: Back to School   Actor Steve Ross has spent 11 years at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival and has performed for many years across Canada. He talks about the first step in his acting career - going to the National Theatre School. What stays with him about that time? Why did he choose that school? Why did he almost leave? Did it prepare him for a career as a working actor? Listen in and find out.   Show Notes National Theatre School of Canada Steve Ross @ The Stratford Festival Join our email list Among Friends and Clutter Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Welcome to Episode 114. You can find all the links for this episode at theatrefolk.com/episode114. Today, we continue our Working Actor series on the podcast. What is it like to be a working actor? How did a choice of school help? What is it like to tour? What's something you should definitely not do? The focus for this week is “back to school.” How does theatre school help prepare a working actor? Today, I talk to actor Steve Ross who is just finishing up his eleventh year of the Stratford Shakespeare Festival and he started his journey at Canada's National Theatre School and I just need to preface that, when I was recording this podcast, I was suffering from a mild case of consumption – better known as a cold – I'm sniffling and coughing, all that fun stuff. I apologize greatly. Lindsay: Hello everyone! I'm here with Steve Ross. Hello Steve! Steve: Hello! How are you? Lindsay: I'm wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today. Steve: Pleasure. Lindsay: All right. So, first of all, where in the world are you right now? Steve: I am in Stratford. I am in my eleventh season at the Stratford Festival. Lindsay: Is that lovely to have a long-term job? Do you look forward to it every year? Steve: It's fantastic. Lindsay: Yeah? Steve: Not only is it nice to have an eight-month gig in general but it's also just a really fantastic place to work. I have loved it since I got here. I didn't intend to ever get here. Lindsay: No? Steve: No, I didn't ever think I would, actually. It was sort of assumed when I went to the National Theatre School. It's kind of a pipeline and people just immediately head to Stratford, but I didn't because I wanted to really look at musicals. When I graduated, it was the time of the big, big musicals and multiple musicals running in Toronto and I wanted to focus on that. So, I moved to Toronto right away instead of pursuing Stratford and I was there for seven years before they called me to come in to audition and I finally did get my head around, “Yeah, we could do both; we can do musicals and classical stuff here,” and I have since fallen deeply in love with the place. Lindsay: Isn't that interesting? I think sometimes actors get into their head that they can only be one kind of actor, do one kind of thing. Steve: Yeah. Lindsay: Is that something that you went through when you were a younger actor? Steve: Well, I think I imposed it on myself, weirdly. There I was at a really wonderful classical school that was giving you wonderful classical training and all I wanted was to do musicals and I guess I was too narrow-minded. That's all I wanted to do and I actually almost quit NTS. Lindsay: Wow. Steve: Because I thought, “You know what? If I'm going to do this, I should focus more on musical theatre,” and, as I was on my way to quit, our singing teacher at NTS walked by me in the hall – and he was a great guy – and he said, “Oh, where are you going?” I said, “I think I'm going to quit and go to Sheraton for musical theatre,” and, completely innocently, he went, “Oh, that's weird.

Amongst other things, Steve tells the story of how driving a mini through a ford resulted in a new engine. Andy: It’s Friday 29th January, I’m at 1st Class Garage with Steven. Steven’s just been playing – not dominos – that game where you have to move things around to make space with cars. Steve: Well, it’s almost like [...]