Podcast appearances and mentions of steve wow

We are running an end of year survey for our listeners. Let us know any feedback you have for us, what episodes resonated with you the most, and guest requests for 2024! RAG has emerged as one of the key pieces of the AI Engineer stack. Jerry from LlamaIndex called it a “hack”, Bryan from Hex compared it to “a recommendation system from LLMs”, and even LangChain started with it. RAG is crucial in any AI coding workflow. We talked about context quality for code in our Phind episode. Today's guests, Beyang Liu and Steve Yegge from SourceGraph, have been focused on code indexing and retrieval for over 15 years. We locked them in our new studio to record a 1.5 hours masterclass on the history of code search, retrieval interfaces for code, and how they get SOTA 30% completion acceptance rate in their Cody product by being better at the “bin packing problem” of LLM context generation. Google Grok → SourceGraph → CodyWhile at Google in 2008, Steve built Grok, which lives on today as Google Kythe. It allowed engineers to do code parsing and searching across different codebases and programming languages. (You might remember this blog post from Steve's time at Google) Beyang was an intern at Google at the same time, and Grok became the inspiration to start SourceGraph in 2013. The two didn't know eachother personally until Beyang brought Steve out of retirement 9 years later to join him as VP Engineering. Fast forward 10 years, SourceGraph has become to best code search tool out there and raised $223M along the way. Nine months ago, they open sourced SourceGraph Cody, their AI coding assistant. All their code indexing and search infrastructure allows them to get SOTA results by having better RAG than competitors:* Code completions as you type that achieve an industry-best Completion Acceptance Rate (CAR) as high as 30% using a context-enhanced open-source LLM (StarCoder)* Context-aware chat that provides the option of using GPT-4 Turbo, Claude 2, GPT-3.5 Turbo, Mistral 7x8B, or Claude Instant, with more model integrations planned* Doc and unit test generation, along with AI quick fixes for common coding errors* AI-enhanced natural language code search, powered by a hybrid dense/sparse vector search engine There are a few pieces of infrastructure that helped Cody achieve these results:Dense-sparse vector retrieval system For many people, RAG = vector similarity search, but there's a lot more that you can do to get the best possible results. From their release:"Sparse vector search" is a fancy name for keyword search that potentially incorporates LLMs for things like ranking and term expansion (e.g., "k8s" expands to "Kubernetes container orchestration", possibly weighted as in SPLADE): * Dense vector retrieval makes use of embeddings, the internal representation that LLMs use to represent text. Dense vector retrieval provides recall over a broader set of results that may have no exact keyword matches but are still semantically similar. * Sparse vector retrieval is very fast, human-understandable, and yields high recall of results that closely match the user query. * We've found the approaches to be complementary.There's a very good blog post by Pinecone on SPLADE for sparse vector search if you're interested in diving in. If you're building RAG applications in areas that have a lot of industry-specific nomenclature, acronyms, etc, this is a good approach to getting better results.SCIPIn 2016, Microsoft announced the Language Server Protocol (LSP) and the Language Server Index Format (LSIF). This protocol makes it easy for IDEs to get all the context they need from a codebase to get things like file search, references, “go to definition”, etc. SourceGraph developed SCIP, “a better code indexing format than LSIF”:* Simpler and More Efficient Format: SCIP utilizes Protobuf instead of JSON, which is used by LSIF. Protobuf is more space-efficient, simpler, and more suitable for systems programming. * Better Performance and Smaller Index Sizes: SCIP indexers, such as scip-clang, show enhanced performance and reduced index file sizes compared to LSIF indexers (10%-20% smaller)* Easier to Develop and Debug: SCIP's design, centered around human-readable string IDs for symbols, makes it faster and more straightforward to develop new language indexers. Having more efficient indexing is key to more performant RAG on code. Show Notes* Sourcegraph* Cody* Copilot vs Cody* Steve's Stanford seminar on Grok* Steve's blog* Grab* Fireworks* Peter Norvig* Noam Chomsky* Code search* Kelly Norton* Zoekt* v0.devSee also our past episodes on Cursor, Phind, Codeium and Codium as well as the GitHub Copilot keynote at AI Engineer Summit.Timestamps* [00:00:00] Intros & Backgrounds* [00:05:20] How Steve's work on Grok inspired SourceGraph for Beyang* [00:08:10] What's Cody?* [00:11:22] Comparison of coding assistants and the capabilities of Cody* [00:16:00] The importance of context (RAG) in AI coding tools* [00:21:33] The debate between Chomsky and Norvig approaches in AI* [00:30:06] Normsky: the Norvig + Chomsky models collision* [00:36:00] The death of the DSL?* [00:40:00] LSP, Skip, Kythe, BFG, and all that fun stuff* [00:53:00] The SourceGraph internal stack* [00:58:46] Building on open source models* [01:02:00] SourceGraph for engineering managers?* [01:12:00] Lightning RoundTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO-in-Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI. [00:00:16]Swyx: Hey, and today we're christening our new podcast studio in the Newton, and we have Beyang and Steve from Sourcegraph. Welcome. [00:00:25]Beyang: Hey, thanks for having us. [00:00:26]Swyx: So this has been a long time coming. I'm very excited to have you. We also are just celebrating the one year anniversary of ChatGPT yesterday, but also we'll be talking about the GA of Cody later on today. We'll just do a quick intros of both of you. Obviously, people can research you and check the show notes for more. Beyang, you worked in computer vision at Stanford and then you worked at Palantir. I did, yeah. You also interned at Google. [00:00:48]Beyang: I did back in the day where I get to use Steve's system, DevTool. [00:00:53]Swyx: Right. What was it called? [00:00:55]Beyang: It was called Grok. Well, the end user thing was Google Code Search. That's what everyone called it, or just like CS. But the brains of it were really the kind of like Trigram index and then Grok, which provided the reference graph. [00:01:07]Steve: Today it's called Kythe, the open source Google one. It's sort of like Grok v3. [00:01:11]Swyx: On your podcast, which you've had me on, you've interviewed a bunch of other code search developers, including the current developer of Kythe, right? [00:01:19]Beyang: No, we didn't have any Kythe people on, although we would love to if they're up for it. We had Kelly Norton, who built a similar system at Etsy, it's an open source project called Hound. We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph. Yeah. [00:01:45]Swyx: So you teamed up with Quinn over 10 years ago to start Sourcegraph and you were indexing all code on the internet. And now you're in a perfect spot to create a code intelligence startup. Yeah, yeah. [00:01:56]Beyang: I guess the backstory was, I used Google Code Search while I was an intern. And then after I left that internship and worked elsewhere, it was the single dev tool that I missed the most. I felt like my job was just a lot more tedious and much more of a hassle without it. And so when Quinn and I started working together at Palantir, he had also used various code search engines in open source over the years. And it was just a pain point that we both felt, both working on code at Palantir and also working within Palantir's clients, which were a lot of Fortune 500 companies, large financial institutions, folks like that. And if anything, the pains they felt in dealing with large complex code bases made our pain points feel small by comparison. So that was really the impetus for starting Sourcegraph. [00:02:42]Swyx: Yeah, excellent. Steve, you famously worked at Amazon. And you've told many, many stories. I want every single listener of Latent Space to check out Steve's YouTube because he effectively had a podcast that you didn't tell anyone about or something. You just hit record and just went on a few rants. I'm always here for your Stevie rants. And then you moved to Google, where you also had some interesting thoughts on just the overall Google culture versus Amazon. You joined Grab as head of eng for a couple of years. I'm from Singapore, so I have actually personally used a lot of Grab's features. And it was very interesting to see you talk so highly of Grab's engineering and sort of overall prospects. [00:03:21]Steve: Because as a customer, it sucked? [00:03:22]Swyx: Yeah, no, it's just like, being from a smaller country, you never see anyone from our home country being on a global stage or talked about as a startup that people admire or look up to, like on the league that you, with all your legendary experience, would consider equivalent. Yeah. [00:03:41]Steve: Yeah, no, absolutely. They actually, they didn't even know that they were as good as they were, in a sense. They started hiring a bunch of people from Silicon Valley to come in and sort of like fix it. And we came in and we were like, Oh, we could have been a little better operational excellence and stuff. But by and large, they're really sharp. The only thing about Grab is that they get criticized a lot for being too westernized. Oh, by who? By Singaporeans who don't want to work there. [00:04:06]Swyx: Okay. I guess I'm biased because I'm here, but I don't see that as a problem. If anything, they've had their success because they were more westernized than the Sanders Singaporean tech company. [00:04:15]Steve: I mean, they had their success because they are laser focused. They copy to Amazon. I mean, they're executing really, really, really well for a giant. I was on a slack with 2,500 engineers. It was like this giant waterfall that you could dip your toe into. You'd never catch up. Actually, the AI summarizers would have been really helpful there. But yeah, no, I think Grab is successful because they're just out there with their sleeves rolled up, just making it happen. [00:04:43]Swyx: And for those who don't know, it's not just like Uber of Southeast Asia, it's also a super app. PayPal Plus. [00:04:48]Steve: Yeah. [00:04:49]Swyx: In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West. We just don't understand it. [00:04:57]Beyang: Yeah. [00:04:58]Steve: It's just kind of curious. They didn't work in India either. And it was primarily because of bandwidth reasons and smaller phones. [00:05:03]Swyx: That should change now. It should. [00:05:05]Steve: And maybe we'll see a super app here. [00:05:08]Swyx: You retired-ish? I did. You retired-ish on your own video game? Mm-hmm. Any fun stories about that? And that's also where you discovered some need for code search, right? Mm-hmm. [00:05:16]Steve: Sure. A need for a lot of stuff. Better programming languages, better databases. Better everything. I mean, I started in like 95, right? Where there was kind of nothing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:24]Beyang: I just want to say, I remember when you first went to Grab because you wrote that blog post talking about why you were excited about it, about like the expanding Asian market. And our reaction was like, oh, man, how did we miss stealing it with you? [00:05:36]Swyx: Hiring you. [00:05:37]Beyang: Yeah. [00:05:38]Steve: I was like, miss that. [00:05:39]Swyx: Tell that story. So how did this happen? Right? So you were inspired by Grok. [00:05:44]Beyang: I guess the backstory from my point of view is I had used code search and Grok while at Google, but I didn't actually know that it was connected to you, Steve. I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it. And that was very eye opening. I was like, oh, like that guy, like the guy who, you know, writes the extremely thoughtful ranty like blog posts also built that system. And so that's how I knew, you know, you were involved in that. And then, you know, we always wanted to hire you, but never knew quite how to approach you or, you know, get that conversation started. [00:06:34]Steve: Well, we got introduced by Max, right? Yeah. It was temporal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a no brainer. They called me up and I had noticed when Sourcegraph had come out. Of course, when they first came out, I had this dagger of jealousy stabbed through me piercingly, which I remember because I am not a jealous person by any means, ever. But boy, I was like, but I was kind of busy, right? And just one thing led to another. I got sucked back into the ads vortex and whatever. So thank God Sourcegraph actually kind of rescued me. [00:07:05]Swyx: Here's a chance to build DevTools. Yeah. [00:07:08]Steve: That's the best. DevTools are the best. [00:07:10]Swyx: Cool. Well, so that's the overall intro. I guess we can get into Cody. Is there anything else that like people should know about you before we get started? [00:07:18]Steve: I mean, everybody knows I'm a musician. I can juggle five balls. [00:07:24]Swyx: Five is good. Five is good. I've only ever managed three. [00:07:27]Steve: Five is hard. Yeah. And six, a little bit. [00:07:30]Swyx: Wow. [00:07:31]Beyang: That's impressive. [00:07:32]Alessio: So yeah, to jump into Sourcegraph, this has been a company 10 years in the making. And as Sean said, now you're at the right place. Phase two. Now, exactly. You spent 10 years collecting all this code, indexing, making it easy to surface it. Yeah. [00:07:47]Swyx: And also learning how to work with enterprises and having them trust you with their code bases. Yeah. [00:07:52]Alessio: Because initially you were only doing on-prem, right? Like a lot of like VPC deployments. [00:07:55]Beyang: So in the very early days, we're cloud only. But the first major customers we landed were all on-prem, self-hosted. And that was, I think, related to the nature of the problem that we're solving, which becomes just like a critical, unignorable pain point once you're above like 100 devs or so. [00:08:11]Alessio: Yeah. And now Cody is going to be GA by the time this releases. So congrats to your future self for launching this in two weeks. Can you give a quick overview of just what Cody is? I think everybody understands that it's a AI coding agent, but a lot of companies say they have a AI coding agent. So yeah, what does Cody do? How do people interface with it? [00:08:32]Beyang: Yeah. So how is it different from the like several dozen other AI coding agents that exist in the market now? When we thought about building a coding assistant that would do things like code generation and question answering about your code base, I think we came at it from the perspective of, you know, we've spent the past decade building the world's best code understanding engine for human developers, right? So like it's kind of your guide as a human dev if you want to go and dive into a large complex code base. And so our intuition was that a lot of the context that we're providing to human developers would also be useful context for AI developers to consume. And so in terms of the feature set, Cody is very similar to a lot of other assistants. It does inline autocompletion. It does code base aware chat. It does specific commands that automate, you know, tasks that you might rather not want to do like generating unit tests or adding detailed documentation. But we think the core differentiator is really the quality of the context, which is hard to kind of describe succinctly. It's a bit like saying, you know, what's the difference between Google and Alta Vista? There's not like a quick checkbox list of features that you can rattle off, but it really just comes down to all the attention and detail that we've paid to making that context work well and be high quality and fast for human devs. We're now kind of plugging into the AI coding assistant as well. Yeah. [00:09:53]Steve: I mean, just to add my own perspective on to what Beyang just described, RAG is kind of like a consultant that the LLM has available, right, that knows about your code. RAG provides basically a bridge to a lookup system for the LLM, right? Whereas fine tuning would be more like on the job training for somebody. If the LLM is a person, you know, and you send them to a new job and you do on the job training, that's what fine tuning is like, right? So tuned to our specific task. You're always going to need that expert, even if you get the on the job training, because the expert knows your particular code base, your task, right? That expert has to know your code. And there's a chicken and egg problem because, right, you know, we're like, well, I'm going to ask the LLM about my code, but first I have to explain it, right? It's this chicken and egg problem. That's where RAG comes in. And we have the best consultants, right? The best assistant who knows your code. And so when you sit down with Cody, right, what Beyang said earlier about going to Google and using code search and then starting to feel like without it, his job was super tedious. Once you start using these, do you guys use coding assistants? [00:10:53]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:10:54]Steve: I mean, like we're getting to the point very quickly, right? Where you feel like almost like you're programming without the internet, right? Or something, you know, it's like you're programming back in the nineties without the coding assistant. Yeah. Hopefully that helps for people who have like no idea about coding systems, what they are. [00:11:09]Swyx: Yeah. [00:11:10]Alessio: I mean, going back to using them, we had a lot of them on the podcast already. We had Cursor, we have Codium and Codium, very similar names. [00:11:18]Swyx: Yeah. Find, and then of course there's Copilot. [00:11:22]Alessio: You had a Copilot versus Cody blog post, and I think it really shows the context improvement. So you had two examples that stuck with me. One was, what does this application do? And the Copilot answer was like, oh, it uses JavaScript and NPM and this. And it's like, but that's not what it does. You know, that's what it's built with. Versus Cody was like, oh, these are like the major functions. And like, these are the functionalities and things like that. And then the other one was, how do I start this up? And Copilot just said NPM start, even though there was like no start command in the package JSON, but you know, most collapse, right? Most projects use NPM start. So maybe this does too. How do you think about open source models? Because Copilot has their own private thing. And I think you guys use Starcoder, if I remember right. Yeah, that's correct. [00:12:09]Beyang: I think Copilot uses some variant of Codex. They're kind of cagey about it. I don't think they've like officially announced what model they use. [00:12:16]Swyx: And I think they use a range of models based on what you're doing. Yeah. [00:12:19]Beyang: So everyone uses a range of model. Like no one uses the same model for like inline completion versus like chat because the latency requirements for. Oh, okay. Well, there's fill in the middle. There's also like what the model's trained on. So like we actually had completions powered by Claude Instant for a while. And but you had to kind of like prompt hack your way to get it to output just the code and not like, hey, you know, here's the code you asked for, like that sort of text. So like everyone uses a range of models. We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick. And I think that's been to our advantage. Like today, Cody uses Starcoder for inline completions. And with the benefit of the context that we provide, we actually show comparable completion acceptance rate metrics. It's kind of like the standard metric that folks use to evaluate inline completion quality. It's like if I show you a completion, what's the chance that you actually accept the completion versus you reject it? And so we're at par with Copilot, which is at the head of that industry right now. And we've been able to do that with the Starcoder model, which is open source and the benefit of the context fetching stuff that we provide. And of course, a lot of like prompt engineering and other stuff along the way. [00:13:40]Alessio: And Steve, you wrote a post called cheating is all you need about what you're building. And one of the points you made is that everybody's fighting on the same axis, which is better UI and the IDE, maybe like a better chat response. But data modes are kind of the most important thing. And you guys have like a 10 year old mode with all the data you've been collecting. How do you kind of think about what other companies are doing wrong, right? Like, why is nobody doing this in terms of like really focusing on RAG? I feel like you see so many people. Oh, we just got a new model. It's like a bit human eval. And it's like, well, but maybe like that's not what we should really be doing, you know? Like, do you think most people underestimate the importance of like the actual RAG in code? [00:14:21]Steve: I think that people weren't doing it much. It wasn't. It's kind of at the edges of AI. It's not in the center. I know that when ChatGPT launched, so within the last year, I've heard a lot of rumblings from inside of Google, right? Because they're undergoing a huge transformation to try to, you know, of course, get into the new world. And I heard that they told, you know, a bunch of teams to go and train their own models or fine tune their own models, right? [00:14:43]Swyx: Both. [00:14:43]Steve: And, you know, it was a s**t show. Nobody knew how to do it. They launched two coding assistants. One was called Code D with an EY. And then there was, I don't know what happened in that one. And then there's Duet, right? Google loves to compete with themselves, right? They do this all the time. And they had a paper on Duet like from a year ago. And they were doing exactly what Copilot was doing, which was just pulling in the local context, right? But fundamentally, I thought of this because we were talking about the splitting of the [00:15:10]Swyx: models. [00:15:10]Steve: In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better. And that fragmentation of models, actually, we expected to continue and proliferate, right? Because we are fundamentally, we're a recommender engine right now. Yeah, we're recommending code to the LLM. We're saying, may I interest you in this code right here so that you can answer my question? [00:15:34]Swyx: Yeah? [00:15:34]Steve: And being good at recommender engine, I mean, who are the best recommenders, right? There's YouTube and Spotify and, you know, Amazon or whatever, right? Yeah. [00:15:41]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:41]Steve: And they all have many, many, many, many, many models, right? For all fine-tuned for very specific, you know. And that's where we're heading in code, too. Absolutely. [00:15:50]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:50]Alessio: We just did an episode we released on Wednesday, which we said RAG is like Rexis or like LLMs. You're basically just suggesting good content. [00:15:58]Swyx: It's like what? Recommendations. [00:15:59]Beyang: Recommendations. [00:16:00]Alessio: Oh, got it. [00:16:01]Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:02]Swyx: So like the naive implementation of RAG is you embed everything, throw it in a vector database, you embed your query, and then you find the nearest neighbors, and that's your RAG. But actually, you need to rank it. And actually, you need to make sure there's sample diversity and that kind of stuff. And then you're like slowly gradient dissenting yourself towards rediscovering proper Rexis, which has been traditional ML for a long time. But like approaching it from an LLM perspective. Yeah. [00:16:24]Beyang: I almost think of it as like a generalized search problem because it's a lot of the same things. Like you want your layer one to have high recall and get all the potential things that could be relevant. And then there's typically like a layer two re-ranking mechanism that bumps up the precision and tries to get the relevant stuff to the top of the results list. [00:16:43]Swyx: Have you discovered that ranking matters a lot? Oh, yeah. So the context is that I think a lot of research shows that like one, context utilization matters based on model. Like GPT uses the top of the context window, and then apparently Claude uses the bottom better. And it's lossy in the middle. Yeah. So ranking matters. No, it really does. [00:17:01]Beyang: The skill with which models are able to take advantage of context is always going to be dependent on how that factors into the impact on the training loss. [00:17:10]Swyx: Right? [00:17:10]Beyang: So like if you want long context window models to work well, then you have to have a ton of data where it's like, here's like a billion lines of text. And I'm going to ask a question about like something that's like, you know, embedded deeply into it and like, give me the right answer. And unless you have that training set, then of course, you're going to have variability in terms of like where it attends to. And in most kind of like naturally occurring data, the thing that you're talking about right now, the thing I'm asking you about is going to be something that we talked about recently. [00:17:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:17:36]Steve: Did you really just say gradient dissenting yourself? Actually, I love that it's entered the casual lexicon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:44]Swyx: My favorite version of that is, you know, how we have to p-hack papers. So, you know, when you throw humans at the problem, that's called graduate student dissent. That's great. It's really awesome. [00:17:54]Alessio: I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work. So you can ask Cody to make changes on a code block and you can still edit the same file at the same time. [00:18:07]Swyx: Yeah. [00:18:07]Alessio: How do you see that in the future? Like, do you see a lot of Cody's running together at the same time? Like, how do you validate also that they're not messing each other up as they make changes in the code? And maybe what are the limitations today? And what do you think about where the attack is going? [00:18:21]Steve: I want to start with a little history and then I'm going to turn it over to Bian, all right? So we actually had this feature in the very first launch back in June. Dominic wrote it. It was called nonstop Cody. And you could have multiple, basically, LLM requests in parallel modifying your source [00:18:37]Swyx: file. [00:18:37]Steve: And he wrote a bunch of code to handle all of the diffing logic. And you could see the regions of code that the LLM was going to change, right? And he was showing me demos of it. And it just felt like it was just a little before its time, you know? But a bunch of that stuff, that scaffolding was able to be reused for where we're inline [00:18:56]Swyx: sitting today. [00:18:56]Steve: How would you characterize it today? [00:18:58]Beyang: Yeah, so that interface has really evolved from a, like, hey, general purpose, like, request anything inline in the code and have the code update to really, like, targeted features, like, you know, fix the bug that exists at this line or request a very specific [00:19:13]Swyx: change. [00:19:13]Beyang: And the reason for that is, I think, the challenge that we ran into with inline fixes, and we do want to get to the point where you could just fire and forget and have, you know, half a dozen of these running in parallel. But I think we ran into the challenge early on that a lot of people are running into now when they're trying to construct agents, which is the reliability of, you know, working code generation is just not quite there yet in today's language models. And so that kind of constrains you to an interaction where the human is always, like, in the inner loop, like, checking the output of each response. And if you want that to work in a way where you can be asynchronous, you kind of have to constrain it to a domain where today's language models can generate reliable code well enough. So, you know, generating unit tests, that's, like, a well-constrained problem. Or fixing a bug that shows up as, like, a compiler error or a test error, that's a well-constrained problem. But the more general, like, hey, write me this class that does X, Y, and Z using the libraries that I have, that is not quite there yet, even with the benefit of really good context. Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution. And if we're to really define that down, I think it implies a couple things. You have, like, a multi-step process where each step is fully automated. We don't have to have a human in the loop every time. And there's also kind of like an LM call at each stage or nearly every stage in that [00:20:45]Swyx: chain. [00:20:45]Beyang: Based on all the work that we've done, you know, with the inline interactions, with kind of like general Codyfeatures for implementing longer chains of thought, we're actually a little bit more bearish than the average, you know, AI hypefluencer out there on the feasibility of agents with purely kind of like transformer-based models. To your original question, like, the inline interactions with CODI, we actually constrained it to be more targeted, like, you know, fix the current error or make this quick fix. I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base. That's a waste of time. You'd rather just have it write the right thing and then move on with your life or not have to think about it. And that's what we're trying to work towards. [00:21:37]Steve: I mean, yeah, we're not going in the agent direction, right? I mean, I'll believe in agents when somebody shows me one that works. Yeah. Instead, we're working on, you know, sort of solidifying our strength, which is bringing the right context in. So new context sources, ways for you to plug in your own context, ways for you to control or influence the context, you know, the mixing that happens before the request goes out, etc. And there's just so much low-hanging fruit left in that space that, you know, agents seems like a little bit of a boondoggle. [00:22:03]Beyang: Just to dive into that a little bit further, like, I think, you know, at a very high level, what do people mean when they say agents? They really mean, like, greater automation, fully automated, like, the dream is, like, here's an issue, go implement that. And I don't have to think about it as a human. And I think we are working towards that. Like, that is the eventual goal. I think it's specifically the approach of, like, hey, can we have a transformer-based LM alone be the kind of, like, backbone or the orchestrator of these agentic flows? Where we're a little bit more bearish today. [00:22:31]Swyx: You want the human in the loop. [00:22:32]Beyang: I mean, you kind of have to. It's just a reality of the behavior of language models that are purely, like, transformer-based. And I think that's just like a reflection of reality. And I don't think people realize that yet. Because if you look at the way that a lot of other AI tools have implemented context fetching, for instance, like, you see this in the Copilot approach, where if you use, like, the at-workspace thing that supposedly provides, like, code-based level context, it has, like, an agentic approach where you kind of look at how it's behaving. And it feels like they're making multiple requests to the LM being like, what would you do in this case? Would you search for stuff? What sort of files would you gather? Go and read those files. And it's like a multi-hop step, so it takes a long while. It's also non-deterministic. Because any sort of, like, LM invocation, it's like a dice roll. And then at the end of the day, the context it fetches is not that good. Whereas our approach is just like, OK, let's do some code searches that make sense. And then maybe, like, crawl through the reference graph a little bit. That is fast. That doesn't require any sort of LM invocation at all. And we can pull in much better context, you know, very quickly. So it's faster. [00:23:37]Swyx: It's more reliable. [00:23:37]Beyang: It's deterministic. And it yields better context quality. And so that's what we think. We just don't think you should cargo cult or naively go like, you know, agents are the [00:23:46]Swyx: future. [00:23:46]Beyang: Let's just try to, like, implement agents on top of the LM that exists today. I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows. [00:24:00]Swyx: It makes sense. You know, we're very much focused on developer inner loop right now. But you do see things eventually moving towards developer outer loop. Yeah. So would you basically say that they're tackling the agent's problem that you don't want to tackle? [00:24:11]Beyang: No, I would say at a high level, we are after maybe, like, the same high level problem, which is like, hey, I want some code written. I want to develop some software and can automate a system. Go build that software for me. I think the approaches might be different. So I think the analogy in my mind is, I think about, like, the AI chess players. Coding, in some senses, I mean, it's similar and dissimilar to chess. I think one question I ask is, like, do you think producing code is more difficult than playing chess or less difficult than playing chess? More. [00:24:41]Swyx: I think more. [00:24:41]Beyang: Right. And if you look at the best AI chess players, like, yes, you can use an LLM to play chess. Like, people have showed demos where it's like, oh, like, yeah, GPT-4 is actually a pretty decent, like, chess move suggester. Right. But you would never build, like, a best in class chess player off of GPT-4 alone. [00:24:57]Swyx: Right. [00:24:57]Beyang: Like, the way that people design chess players is that you have kind of like a search space and then you have a way to explore that search space efficiently. There's a bunch of search algorithms, essentially. We were doing tree search in various ways. And you can have heuristic functions, which might be powered by an LLM. [00:25:12]Swyx: Right. [00:25:12]Beyang: Like, you might use an LLM to generate proposals in that space that you can efficiently explore. But the backbone is still this kind of more formalized tree search based approach rather than the LLM itself. And so I think my high level intuition is that, like, the way that we get to more reliable multi-step workflows that do things beyond, you know, generate unit test, it's really going to be like a search based approach where you use an LLM as kind of like an advisor or a proposal function, sort of your heuristic function, like the ASTAR search algorithm. But it's probably not going to be the thing that is the backbone, because I guess it's not the right tool for that. Yeah. [00:25:50]Swyx: I can see yourself kind of thinking through this, but not saying the words, the sort of philosophical Peter Norvig type discussion. Maybe you want to sort of introduce that in software. Yeah, definitely. [00:25:59]Beyang: So your listeners are savvy. They're probably familiar with the classic like Chomsky versus Norvig debate. [00:26:04]Swyx: No, actually, I wanted, I was prompting you to introduce that. Oh, got it. [00:26:08]Beyang: So, I mean, if you look at the history of artificial intelligence, right, you know, it goes way back to, I don't know, it's probably as old as modern computers, like 50s, 60s, 70s. People are debating on like, what is the path to producing a sort of like general human level of intelligence? And kind of two schools of thought that emerged. One is the Norvig school of thought, which roughly speaking includes large language models, you know, regression, SVN, basically any model that you kind of like learn from data. And it's like data driven. Most of machine learning would fall under this umbrella. And that school of thought says like, you know, just learn from the data. That's the approach to reaching intelligence. And then the Chomsky approach is more things like compilers and parsers and formal systems. So basically like, let's think very carefully about how to construct a formal, precise system. And that will be the approach to how we build a truly intelligent system. I think Lisp was invented so that you could create like rules-based systems that you would call AI. As a language. Yeah. And for a long time, there was like this debate, like there's certain like AI research labs that were more like, you know, in the Chomsky camp and others that were more in the Norvig camp. It's a debate that rages on today. And I feel like the consensus right now is that, you know, Norvig definitely has the upper hand right now with the advent of LMs and diffusion models and all the other recent progress in machine learning. But the Chomsky-based stuff is still really useful in my view. I mean, it's like parsers, compilers, basically a lot of the stuff that provides really good context. It provides kind of like the knowledge graph backbone that you want to explore with your AI dev tool. Like that will come from kind of like Chomsky-based tools like compilers and parsers. It's a lot of what we've invested in in the past decade at Sourcegraph and what you build with Grok. Basically like these formal systems that construct these very precise knowledge graphs that are great context providers and great kind of guard rails enforcers and kind of like safety checkers for the output of a more kind of like data-driven, fuzzier system that uses like the Norvig-based models. [00:28:03]Steve: Jang was talking about this stuff like it happened in the middle ages. Like, okay, so when I was in college, I was in college learning Lisp and prologue and planning and all the deterministic Chomsky approaches to AI. And I was there when Norvig basically declared it dead. I was there 3,000 years ago when Norvig and Chomsky fought on the volcano. When did he declare it dead? [00:28:26]Swyx: What do you mean he declared it dead? [00:28:27]Steve: It was like late 90s. [00:28:29]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:29]Steve: When I went to Google, Peter Norvig was already there. He had basically like, I forget exactly where. It was some, he's got so many famous short posts, you know, amazing. [00:28:38]Swyx: He had a famous talk, the unreasonable effectiveness of data. Yeah. [00:28:41]Steve: Maybe that was it. But at some point, basically, he basically convinced everybody that deterministic approaches had failed and that heuristic-based, you know, data-driven statistical approaches, stochastic were better. [00:28:52]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:52]Steve: The primary reason I can tell you this, because I was there, was that, was that, well, the steam-powered engine, no. The reason was that the deterministic stuff didn't scale. [00:29:06]Swyx: Yeah. Right. [00:29:06]Steve: They're using prologue, man, constraint systems and stuff like that. Well, that was a long time ago, right? Today, actually, these Chomsky-style systems do scale. And that's, in fact, exactly what Sourcegraph has built. Yeah. And so we have a very unique, I love the framing that Bjong's made, that the marriage of the Chomsky and the Norvig, you know, sort of models, you know, conceptual models, because we, you know, we have both of them and they're both really important. And in fact, there, there's this really interesting, like, kind of overlap between them, right? Where like the AI or our graph or our search engine could potentially provide the right context for any given query, which is, of course, why ranking is important. But what we've really signed ourselves up for is an extraordinary amount of testing. [00:29:45]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:45]Steve: Because in SWIGs, you were saying that, you know, GPT-4 tends to the front of the context window and maybe other LLMs to the back and maybe, maybe the LLM in the middle. [00:29:53]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:53]Steve: And so that means that, you know, if we're actually like, you know, verifying whether we, you know, some change we've made has improved things, we're going to have to test putting it at the beginning of the window and at the end of the window, you know, and maybe make the right decision based on the LLM that you've chosen. Which some of our competitors, that's a problem that they don't have, but we meet you, you know, where you are. Yeah. And we're, just to finish, we're writing tens of thousands. We're generating tests, you know, fill in the middle type tests and things. And then using our graph to basically sort of fine tune Cody's behavior there. [00:30:20]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:21]Beyang: I also want to add, like, I have like an internal pet name for this, like kind of hybrid architecture that I'm trying to make catch on. Maybe I'll just say it here. Just saying it publicly kind of makes it more real. But like, I call the architecture that we've developed the Normsky architecture. [00:30:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:36]Beyang: I mean, it's obviously a portmanteau of Norvig and Chomsky, but the acronym, it stands for non-agentic, rapid, multi-source code intelligence. So non-agentic because... Rolls right off the tongue. And Normsky. But it's non-agentic in the sense that like, we're not trying to like pitch you on kind of like agent hype, right? Like it's the things it does are really just developer tools developers have been using for decades now, like parsers and really good search indexes and things like that. Rapid because we place an emphasis on speed. We don't want to sit there waiting for kind of like multiple LLM requests to return to complete a simple user request. Multi-source because we're thinking broadly about what pieces of information and knowledge are useful context. So obviously starting with things that you can search in your code base, and then you add in the reference graph, which kind of like allows you to crawl outward from those initial results. But then even beyond that, you know, sources of information, like there's a lot of knowledge that's embedded in docs, in PRDs or product specs, in your production logging system, in your chat, in your Slack channel, right? Like there's so much context is embedded there. And when you're a human developer, and you're trying to like be productive in your code base, you're going to go to all these different systems to collect the context that you need to figure out what code you need to write. And I don't think the AI developer will be any different. It will need to pull context from all these different sources. So we're thinking broadly about how to integrate these into Codi. We hope through kind of like an open protocol that like others can extend and implement. And this is something else that should be accessible by December 14th in kind of like a preview stage. But that's really about like broadening this notion of the code graph beyond your Git repository to all the other sources where technical knowledge and valuable context can live. [00:32:21]Steve: Yeah, it becomes an artifact graph, right? It can link into your logs and your wikis and any data source, right? [00:32:27]Alessio: How do you guys think about the importance of, it's almost like data pre-processing in a way, which is bring it all together, tie it together, make it ready. Any thoughts on how to actually make that good? Some of the innovation you guys have made. [00:32:40]Steve: We talk a lot about the context fetching, right? I mean, there's a lot of ways you could answer this question. But, you know, we've spent a lot of time just in this podcast here talking about context fetching. But stuffing the context into the window is, you know, the bin packing problem, right? Because the window is not big enough, and you've got more context than you can fit. You've got a ranker maybe. But what is that context? Is it a function that was returned by an embedding or a graph call or something? Do you need the whole function? Or do you just need, you know, the top part of the function, this expression here, right? You know, so that art, the golf game of trying to, you know, get each piece of context down into its smallest state, possibly even summarized by another model, right, before it even goes to the LLM, becomes this is the game that we're in, yeah? And so, you know, recursive summarization and all the other techniques that you got to use to like stuff stuff into that context window become, you know, critically important. And you have to test them across every configuration of models that you could possibly need. [00:33:32]Beyang: I think data preprocessing is probably the like unsexy, way underappreciated secret to a lot of the cool stuff that people are shipping today. Whether you're doing like RAG or fine tuning or pre-training, like the preprocessing step matters so much because it's basically garbage in, garbage out, right? Like if you're feeding in garbage to the model, then it's going to output garbage. Concretely, you know, for code RAG, if you're not doing some sort of like preprocessing that takes advantage of a parser and is able to like extract the key components of a particular file of code, you know, separate the function signature from the body, from the doc string, what are you even doing? Like that's like table stakes. It opens up so much more possibilities with which you can kind of like tune your system to take advantage of the signals that come from those different parts of the code. Like we've had a tool, you know, since computers were invented that understands the structure of source code to a hundred percent precision. The compiler knows everything there is to know about the code in terms of like structure. Like why would you not want to use that in a system that's trying to generate code, answer questions about code? You shouldn't throw that out the window just because now we have really good, you know, data-driven models that can do other things. [00:34:44]Steve: Yeah. When I called it a data moat, you know, in my cheating post, a lot of people were confused, you know, because data moat sort of sounds like data lake because there's data and water and stuff. I don't know. And so they thought that we were sitting on this giant mountain of data that we had collected, but that's not what our data moat is. It's really a data pre-processing engine that can very quickly and scalably, like basically dissect your entire code base in a very small, fine-grained, you know, semantic unit and then serve it up. Yeah. And so it's really, it's not a data moat. It's a data pre-processing moat, I guess. [00:35:15]Beyang: Yeah. If anything, we're like hypersensitive to customer data privacy requirements. So it's not like we've taken a bunch of private data and like, you know, trained a generally available model. In fact, exactly the opposite. A lot of our customers are choosing Cody over Copilot and other competitors because we have an explicit guarantee that we don't do any of that. And that we've done that from day one. Yeah. I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up. [00:35:52]Alessio: About a year ago, I wrote a post on LLMs for developers. And one of the points I had was maybe the depth of like the DSL. I spent most of my career writing Ruby and I love Ruby. It's so nice to use, but you know, it's not as performant, but it's really easy to read, right? And then you look at other languages, maybe they're faster, but like they're more verbose, you know? And when you think about efficiency of the context window, that actually matters. [00:36:15]Swyx: Yeah. [00:36:15]Alessio: But I haven't really seen a DSL for models, you know? I haven't seen like code being optimized to like be easier to put in a model context. And it seems like your pre-processing is kind of doing that. Do you see in the future, like the way we think about the DSL and APIs and kind of like service interfaces be more focused on being context friendly, where it's like maybe it's harder to read for the human, but like the human is never going to write it anyway. We were talking on the Hacks podcast. There are like some data science things like spin up the spandex, like humans are never going to write again because the models can just do very easily. Yeah, curious to hear your thoughts. [00:36:51]Steve: Well, so DSLs, they involve, you know, writing a grammar and a parser and they're like little languages, right? We do them that way because, you know, we need them to compile and humans need to be able to read them and so on. The LLMs don't need that level of structure. You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything. Maybe it will at some point, right? We've got, you know, tagging of context and things like that that are sort of peeking into DSL territory, right? But your point on do users, you know, do people have to learn DSLs like regular expressions or, you know, pick your favorite, right? XPath. I think you're absolutely right that the LLMs are really, really good at that. And I think you're going to see a lot less of people having to slave away learning these things. They just have to know the broad capabilities and the LLM will take care of the rest. [00:37:42]Swyx: Yeah, I'd agree with that. [00:37:43]Beyang: I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer. And in many cases today, you know, without the benefit of AI cogeneration, like that totally worth it, right? With the benefit of AI cogeneration, I mean, I don't think all DSLs will go away. I think there's still, you know, places where that trade-off is going to be worthwhile. But it's kind of like how much of source code do you think is going to be generated through natural language prompting in the future? Because in a way, like any programming language is just a DSL on top of assembly, right? And so if people can do that, then yeah, like maybe for a large portion of the code [00:38:21]Swyx: that's written, [00:38:21]Beyang: people don't actually have to understand the DSL that is Ruby or Python or basically any other programming language that exists. [00:38:28]Steve: I mean, seriously, do you guys ever write SQL queries now without using a model of some sort? At least a draft. [00:38:34]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:38:36]Steve: And so we have kind of like, you know, past that bridge, right? [00:38:39]Alessio: Yeah, I think like to me, the long-term thing is like, is there ever going to be, you don't actually see the code, you know? It's like, hey, the basic thing is like, hey, I need a function to some two numbers and that's it. I don't need you to generate the code. [00:38:53]Steve: And the following question, do you need the engineer or the paycheck? [00:38:56]Swyx: I mean, right? [00:38:58]Alessio: That's kind of the agent's discussion in a way where like you cannot automate the agents, but like slowly you're getting more of the atomic units of the work kind of like done. I kind of think of it as like, you know, [00:39:09]Beyang: do you need a punch card operator to answer that for you? And so like, I think we're still going to have people in the role of a software engineer, but the portion of time they spend on these kinds of like low-level, tedious tasks versus the higher level, more creative tasks is going to shift. [00:39:23]Steve: No, I haven't used punch cards. [00:39:25]Swyx: Yeah, I've been talking about like, so we kind of made this podcast about the sort of rise of the AI engineer. And like the first step is the AI enhanced engineer. That is that software developer that is no longer doing these routine, boilerplate-y type tasks, because they're just enhanced by tools like yours. So you mentioned OpenCodeGraph. I mean, that is a kind of DSL maybe, and because we're releasing this as you go GA, you hope for other people to take advantage of that? [00:39:52]Beyang: Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints. So I would, you know, comparisons like LSP obviously did this for kind of like standard code intelligence. It's kind of like a lingua franca for providing fine references and codefinition. There's kind of like analogs to that. There might be also analogs to kind of the original OpenAI, kind of like plugins, API. There's all this like context out there that might be useful for an LM-based system to consume. And so at a high level, what we're trying to do is define a common language for context providers to provide context to other tools in the software development lifecycle. Yeah. Do you have any critiques of LSP, by the way, [00:40:42]Swyx: since like this is very much, very close to home? [00:40:45]Steve: One of the authors wrote a really good critique recently. Yeah. I don't think I saw that. Yeah, yeah. LSP could have been better. It just came out a couple of weeks ago. It was a good article. [00:40:54]Beyang: Yeah. I think LSP is great. Like for what it did for the developer ecosystem, it was absolutely fantastic. Like nowadays, like it's much easier now to get code navigation up and running in a bunch of editors by speaking this protocol. I think maybe the interesting question is like looking at the different design decisions comparing LSP basically with Kythe. Because Kythe has more of a... How would you describe it? [00:41:18]Steve: A storage format. [00:41:20]Beyang: I think the critique of LSP from a Kythe point of view would be like with LSP, you don't actually have an actual symbolic model of the code. It's not like LSP models like, hey, this function calls this other function. LSP is all like range-based. Like, hey, your cursor's at line 32, column 1. [00:41:35]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:35]Beyang: And that's the thing you feed into the language server. And then it's like, okay, here's the range that you should jump to if you click on that range. So it kind of is intentionally ignorant of the fact that there's a thing called a reference underneath your cursor, and that's linked to a symbol definition. [00:41:49]Steve: Well, actually, that's the worst example you could have used. You're right. But that's the one thing that it actually did bake in is following references. [00:41:56]Swyx: Sure. [00:41:56]Steve: But it's sort of hardwired. [00:41:58]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:58]Steve: Whereas Kythe attempts to model [00:42:00]Beyang: like all these things explicitly. [00:42:02]Swyx: And so... [00:42:02]Steve: Well, so LSP is a protocol, right? And so Google's internal protocol is gRPC-based. And it's a different approach than LSP. It's basically you make a heavy query to the back end, and you get a lot of data back, and then you render the whole page, you know? So we've looked at LSP, and we think that it's a little long in the tooth, right? I mean, it's a great protocol, lots and lots of support for it. But we need to push into the domain of exposing the intelligence through the protocol. Yeah. [00:42:29]Beyang: And so I would say we've developed a protocol of our own called Skip, which is at a very high level trying to take some of the good ideas from LSP and from Kythe and merge that into a system that in the near term is useful for Sourcegraph, but I think in the long term, we hope will be useful for the ecosystem. Okay, so here's what LSP did well. LSP, by virtue of being like intentionally dumb, dumb in air quotes, because I'm not like ragging on it, allowed language servers developers to kind of like bypass the hard problem of like modeling language semantics precisely. So like if all you want to do is jump to definition, you don't have to come up with like a universally unique naming scheme for each symbol, which is actually quite challenging because you have to think about like, okay, what's the top scope of this name? Is it the source code repository? Is it the package? Does it depend on like what package server you're fetching this from? Like whether it's the public one or the one inside your... Anyways, like naming is hard, right? And by just going from kind of like a location to location based approach, you basically just like throw that out the window. All I care about is jumping definition, just make that work. And you can make that work without having to deal with like all the complex global naming things. The limitation of that approach is that it's harder to build on top of that to build like a true knowledge graph. Like if you actually want a system that says like, okay, here's the web of functions and here's how they reference each other. And I want to incorporate that like semantic model of how the code operates or how the code relates to each other at like a static level. You can't do that with LSP because you have to deal with line ranges. And like concretely the pain point that we found in using LSP for source graph is like in order to do like a find references [00:44:04]Swyx: and then jump definitions, [00:44:04]Beyang: it's like a multi-hop process because like you have to jump to the range and then you have to find the symbol at that range. And it just adds a lot of latency and complexity of these operations where as a human, you're like, well, this thing clearly references this other thing. Why can't you just jump me to that? And I think that's the thing that Kaith does well. But then I think the issue that Kaith has had with adoption is because it is more sophisticated schema, I think. And so there's basically more things that you have to implement to get like a Kaith implementation up and running. I hope I'm not like, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. [00:44:35]Steve: 100%, 100%. Kaith also has a problem, all these systems have the problem, even skip, or at least the way that we implemented the indexers, that they have to integrate with your build system in order to build that knowledge graph, right? Because you have to basically compile the code in a special mode to generate artifacts instead of binaries. And I would say, by the way, earlier I was saying that XREFs were in LSP, but it's actually, I was thinking of LSP plus LSIF. [00:44:58]Swyx: Yeah. That's another. [00:45:01]Steve: Which is actually bad. We can say that it's bad, right? [00:45:04]Steve: It's like skip or Kaith, it's supposed to be sort of a model serialization, you know, for the code graph, but it basically just does what LSP needs, the bare minimum. LSIF is basically if you took LSP [00:45:16]Beyang: and turned that into a serialization format. So like you build an index for language servers to kind of like quickly bootstrap from cold start. But it's a graph model [00:45:23]Steve: with all of the inconvenience of the API without an actual graph. And so, yeah. [00:45:29]Beyang: So like one of the things that we try to do with skip is try to capture the best of both worlds. So like make it easy to write an indexer, make the schema simple, but also model some of the more symbolic characteristics of the code that would allow us to essentially construct this knowledge graph that we can then make useful for both the human developer through SourceGraph and through the AI developer through Cody. [00:45:49]Steve: So anyway, just to finish off the graph comment, we've got a new graph, yeah, that's skip based. We call it BFG internally, right? It's a beautiful something graph. A big friendly graph. [00:46:00]Swyx: A big friendly graph. [00:46:01]Beyang: It's a blazing fast. [00:46:02]Steve: Blazing fast. [00:46:03]Swyx: Blazing fast graph. [00:46:04]Steve: And it is blazing fast, actually. It's really, really interesting. I should probably have to do a blog post about it to walk you through exactly how they're doing it. Oh, please. But it's a very AI-like iterative, you know, experimentation sort of approach. We're building a code graph based on all of our 10 years of knowledge about building code graphs, yeah? But we're building it quickly with zero configuration, and it doesn't have to integrate with your build. And through some magic tricks that we have. And so what just happens when you install the plugin, that it'll be there and indexing your code and providing that knowledge graph in the background without all that build system integration. This is a bit of secret sauce that we haven't really like advertised it very much lately. But I am super excited about it because what they do is they say, all right, you know, let's tackle function parameters today. Cody's not doing a very good job of completing function call arguments or function parameters in the definition, right? Yeah, we generate those thousands of tests, and then we can actually reuse those tests for the AI context as well. So fortunately, things are kind of converging on, we have, you know, half a dozen really, really good context sources, and we mix them all together. So anyway, BFG, you're going to hear more about it probably in the holidays? [00:47:12]Beyang: I think it'll be online for December 14th. We'll probably mention it. BFG is probably not the public name we're going to go with. I think we might call it like Graph Context or something like that. [00:47:20]Steve: We're officially calling it BFG. [00:47:22]Swyx: You heard it here first. [00:47:24]Beyang: BFG is just kind of like the working name. And so the impetus for BFG was like, if you look at like current AI inline code completion tools and the errors that they make, a lot of the errors that they make, even in kind of like the easy, like single line case, are essentially like type errors, right? Like you're trying to complete a function call and it suggests a variable that you defined earlier, but that variable is the wrong type. [00:47:47]Swyx: And that's the sort of thing [00:47:47]Beyang: where it's like a first year, like freshman CS student would not make that error, right? So like, why does the AI make that error? And the reason is, I mean, the AI is just suggesting things that are plausible without the context of the types or any other like broader files in the code. And so the kind of intuition here is like, why don't we just do the basic thing that like any baseline intelligent human developer would do, which is like click jump to definition, click some fine references and pull in that like Graph Context into the context window and then have it generate the completion. So like that's sort of like the MVP of what BFG was. And turns out that works really well. Like you can eliminate a lot of type errors that AI coding tools make just by pulling in that context. Yeah, but the graph is definitely [00:48:32]Steve: our Chomsky side. [00:48:33]Swyx: Yeah, exactly. [00:48:34]Beyang: So like this like Chomsky-Norvig thing, I think pops up in a bunch of differ

Rose Plate Special: Charity, Week 9 Here's what we'll say about the finale: Kudos to the producers for faking out Sammi fairly effectively, but is it even a fakeout when she was operating on little sleep and lots of pinball on the brain? Hard to say. See you all for a bonus episode of Jilly Box opening before Season 16 of our podcast launches at the end of September! Transcription Please forgive minor typos! Sammi: And you're listening to Rose Plate Special, the most dramatic googly eyeingist I have nothing for this because everything we said. Steve: Was going to happen, happened. Sammi: Paradise promoing us recap podcast of The Bachelorette ever. Sammi: Yeah, it was so bad. Steve: Ever. Steve: Sammi. Steve: Are you the bachelorette? Steve: Nostradamus perhaps. Sammi: Maybe. Sammi: But here's the thing that's interesting. Sammi: So first of all, sorry this is late everyone. Sammi: I was on vacation and I actually took a break, which I never do, and so you should all be proud of me. Sammi: But here we are also. Sammi: Okay, so a couple of pieces of news. Sammi: So yes, I was on vacation and that was fun. Sammi: That's not really news. Sammi: Second piece of news that is news. Sammi: The jilly box is coming probably in the next day or two. Sammi: So if you are interested, we can do another special we'll do between now and like The Golden Bachelor. Sammi: We can do a special jilly unboxing for. Sammi: Oh, and then yeah, here's what's interesting about this. Sammi: Also, my notes are a little spotty, so I may need you to fill in because I watched this. Sammi: So I was just telling Steve that one of the things that we did on vacation is we went to this retrocade and we played all you can play Pinball until like, I don't know, almost two in the morning. Sammi: And we got home and we started talking about the top 100 pinball games and we were talking about what we would want in our basement and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And then I was like, oh s***, I got to start watching The Bachelorete in case we decide we want to record. Sammi: So I went to bed at four in the morning. Sammi: This is not like me. Steve: And we're recording late anyways. Sammi: Yeah, I was up until four in the morning watching it and then I woke up the next day and finished it. Sammi: So I might have missed some key things because I was all jacked up about pinball. Sammi: Like I literally had maybe two drinks the whole night. Sammi: It wasn't like, oh, it's partying hard. Sammi: I was like really trying to crack the game. Sammi: Barbed wire. Sammi: Could not get it. Sammi: Oh wow, not get it. Sammi: But medieval madness. Sammi: I had a really good round. Sammi: Yeah, it's one of my favorites. Sammi: Anyway, so that's what I was doing when I was taking notes. Sammi: But yeah, so what's interesting though is despite knowing everything that happened, they tricked me. Sammi: I got tricked because I was like, oh my God, maybe it is going to be Joey. Sammi: And I was like, wow, everything I thought was wrong. Sammi: And I was like so shocked. Sammi: And I was like, no way. Sammi: So they fooled me hard. Sammi: I really just was like, oh, this is how everyone's leaning and this is what's going to happen. Sammi: And last week I was like, datten is a sure thing, he is a sure thing. Sammi: And then I was like, I'm just not so sure. Steve: So we've been in this game long enough. Steve: Sammi, this is the trickery. Steve: Because they knew that we knew that to was going to run away with this thing, so they had to throw us some swerves. Sammi: I got so fooled. Steve: Well, one thing's for sure, because this episode starts off on Aaron, nobody in the entire universe thought that Aaron was going to be sticking don. Steve: I don't think they do Vegas odds for the Bachelor or the Bachelorete. Steve: But if they did, you wouldn't even be allowed to bet on Aaron because that's how bad of a shot he. Sammi: So yeah, it was just so basically and also they do this thing at the very beginning and, like, dawn gets claps and Joey gets claps and Aaron got nothing. Steve: No, and it's not because he's a bad guy. Steve: He's the most uninteresting man in the world. Sammi: They were just did something. Sammi: Did you just say Aaron? Sammi: Oh, I missed it. Sammi: I was thinking about something. Sammi: So and then when they're like, we're going to do a thing that's never happened. Sammi: Okay, this was my guess, which I think is funny. Sammi: Like Charity's brother is going to come on and propose to a long term partner on the show. Sammi: But that didn't happen. Sammi: But that's what I thought because I was like, bring nehemiah back. Sammi: But that's not what happened. Sammi: So this is the best part, too, is Aaron. Sammi: So she's like, obviously this is what was going through Charity's mind. Sammi: I'm thinking is she was probably like, he came all the way to Fiji. Sammi: What am I going to do, say go home? Sammi: She's like, I have to make it feel like he has somewhat of a shot or like something could happen. Sammi: But I love that she was like, this is giving me acid reflux. Steve: Yeah, it's like, bro, you flew probably like 14 hours just to get dumped, which is real sad. Steve: And if someone in production had half a heart, they would have told you to stay at home, but they didn't. Steve: And then it's also sad because it's like, I mean, we all knew you had to know deep down that she didn't have a shot. Steve: And then when she's finally and you know, she walks about and everything, he's just like, well, it's okay. Steve: I'm still in your corner. Steve: It's like, dude, she doesn't need you and you don't need to be here. Steve: What are you doing here? Steve: What's going on, Aaron? Sammi: Come on. Steve: Come on. Steve: I don't know. Steve: And then he's such a dork and not in the fun way. Steve: It's just uninteresting. Steve: And then he's going to be on paradise and I could not find a shred of anything inside of myself that got excited for Aaron on. Sammi: Feel like I feel like you just like Aaron a lot more than I do. Sammi: But I just felt really bad for like I was just I mean, maybe this was something that raised his stock enough to make it worth it for him to be on paradise. Sammi: It gave him more of a story that's something that some of the women on the beach might be like, wow, that's so romantic. Sammi: You flew all the way to Fiji. Sammi: It could work in his favor, for sure. Sammi: But yeah, I was mean, I don't know. Sammi: And then he was like, the emotions I've always felt it's good to feel again. Sammi: And I was like, it's been like two days, Aaron. Sammi: I mean, it's not like it's been so long. Sammi: It's like maybe been a couple days. Sammi: But the best part about this whole thing was they get to the rose ceremony and Joey's like, am I on drugs? Sammi: He's like, blinking. Sammi: I don't have glasses to clean. Sammi: What's happening? Sammi: Wait, Aaron's here and Xavier isn't? Sammi: It was so sweet that he was like, what? Sammi: I don't even know. Sammi: And then as soon as she gave Joey a rose, I was like, well, Erin is going home because obviously Dotton's getting the other one. Sammi: That was really obvious. Sammi: And then she's like, Erin, can you come with me? Sammi: And he knew. Sammi: Then he's like, okay, yeah, Aaron is. Steve: In the top three because technically you have to have a top three. Steve: So what are you going to do? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: I guess at the end I feel like at the end that we've had it before, where it's just like two of them, where one of them goes home early and then it's just the two of them at the rose ceremony. Sammi: It's like, well, you both get the roses. Sammi: No drama there. Sammi: Goodbye. Sammi: Yeah, but yeah, so that was inevitable. Sammi: It was just inevitable. Sammi: All my notes about Erin talking with Jesse afterwards were just that it was a generic talk and he's going to be in paradise. Sammi: And when they announced he was in paradise, I was like, that means he's not the bachelor. Sammi: And that's good. Sammi: Yeah, because that wouldn't be interesting unless they gave him his own camera. Sammi: Because I do think his insecurities would be interesting to watch. Sammi: His internal monologue would be interesting to watch. Sammi: But now we get the time with Charity's family and Joey is first. Sammi: And Joey had a terrible hometown date. Sammi: I mean, it wasn't like the worst hometown date, but it was just like awkward and lacking and he had the worst out of the four. Steve: I shouldn't say it was a B minus. Steve: It was not like a colossal faceplant like in the past. Steve: And many a man has gotten farther or as far as Joey with a worse hometown, but it was not yeah, yeah. Sammi: It just was like, oh, wow. Sammi: And so of course, then, so what's interesting is what I'm trying to say is Joey's hometown date was not very good. Sammi: But with Charity's family, it was like, he's the one and he's the best one, and don't let him slip away. Sammi: He's perfect. Sammi: And then, you know, Dalton's hometown, it was like, you are our family now. Sammi: You are stuck with us. Sammi: You two are soulmates. Sammi: This is happening. Sammi: And then yeah, it's like I can't really talk about this without comparing these right away. Sammi: But then Dalton's time with Charity's family was just kind of like I don't know, I mean like he's fine or whatever. Sammi: He's just familiar and he's just kind of like who she always goes for. Steve: And that's interesting too. Sammi: We want to see her shake it up a little bit. Sammi: And I was like, is this really the time to be like rolling the dice? Sammi: I don't know, it was just kind of a weird yeah, anyway just try. Steve: To commit to marriage. Steve: Yeah right. Steve: But like I don't like I like Joey. Steve: I don't think he's particularly interesting but he's a very nice young man. Sammi: I think he's very sweet. Steve: Yeah, but the thing that really stuck out to me, Dotton also very sweet guy. Sammi: Oh yeah. Steve: But when Charity was know, both these guys meet with her parents and they like both of them but they like Joey Moore. Steve: And her mom made the comment that Dotton was kind of like the guy she had dated in the past. Steve: Which is weird because she said that about Xavier. Steve: And I feel like in my head, aside from them being like African American men in their mid to late twenty s, I don't see a lot of similarities between Xavier. Sammi: They're very different I will say. Sammi: I mean they both have interest in the health fields. Sammi: I guess that would be a commonality but Dotton's coming at it from more of a coachee integrative health personal trainer. Steve: And that kind of an interest. Steve: It doesn't really inform their vibes or their personality. Sammi: Personalities are very different. Sammi: But that's the only other thing that at least what I could see. Sammi: They have that in common. Sammi: But Xavier's in a lab and datten's more like with so that's very mean. Sammi: Like their families were pretty mean. Sammi: I just don't get the think and maybe I could be wrong. Sammi: I don't feel like dunn's one of those go out with the boys kind of guys like oh well, if I'm out with my boys and something like I just would be surprised if he but I was surprised when Xavier said it, so who the h*** knows. Sammi: But I just don't get that feeling from him that that's something that's super important to him to be out with a bunch of toxic dudes. Sammi: I don't that's but it could just be know a first impression thing where it's like oh, this seems similar or whatever because Joey is so different that it's just like that's the only way she could compare it. Sammi: I have no like it's like who knows? Sammi: But I think they're both really good dudes. Sammi: But it was interesting and even though it's like I know what happens with production and editing and how they choose the stuff and whatever but still even though I know all that and I've been watching this show for 20 plus years, I was still like, oh, no, this is not good. Sammi: And I was like, maybe Danton's not as good as I thought he was. Sammi: Because also last week we were thrown for a loop. Sammi: So I was like, oh, maybe all the things that I was feeling about how good they were together are wrong. Sammi: And then they, of course, did stuff where it's like she's saying I love you to Joey, and then Dotton says I love you to her and she doesn't say it back, and you're like, oh, God. Sammi: Oh, no, what's happening? Sammi: This is so bad. Steve: I like a season designed around just, like, emotionally messing with basically well, that's how I felt. Sammi: I was like, what is going on? Sammi: And it's like, late at night and I'm tired and I'm watching this episode and I'm like, what is happening? Sammi: And then, yeah, gosh. Sammi: I don't mean I will say because I feel like the other thing that Charity's mom seemed to focus on was just like, how Joey is just googly eyed all the time. Sammi: But I feel like his I don't think he would ever be like, he is affectionate and whatever, but he's more like, I don't know, kind of secure and solid and whatever. Sammi: So I think the way they just look at someone they're interested in is different. Sammi: But anyway, it was an interesting juxtaposition, and I wrote wow a lot on my notes, apparently. Sammi: I'm like, wow, family thinks he's the one. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: And then this whole thing is, like, interspersed with this whole oh, well, one of you is going to date the bachelor, but you don't know which one of you it is. Sammi: But we invited you all here, so it's one of the people we invited here. Sammi: It's obviously not going to be some random person from the audience. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And I was like, everybody stand up if you would like to date the Bachelor, like, what the h***? Sammi: This is not how this works. Sammi: And he interviews all these people. Sammi: This was one thing that I thought was weird, and I was trying to find some conversation about it online, and I could not because they had someone from Oahu get interviewed. Sammi: Right. Sammi: And Joey lives in Hawaii and everything and everything that happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Which happened in my family's neighborhood. Sammi: And luckily their house is still okay, but I don't know if they even know if some of their friends are alive. Sammi: It was very strange that they didn't did I miss it? Sammi: Because I'm like, I was tired and I did not watch this live. Sammi: They didn't say anything about what happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Did they? Sammi: I mean, I know it's a different island, but a lot of people got moved to, um, for safety and because of capacity and all that stuff. Sammi: And I was like, this is strange. Sammi: This is live. Sammi: So this already happened. Steve: Yeah. Steve: That you'd think that they would make some mention of it. Steve: Now, it was really entirely possible that I got up to get another slice of pizza or grab a drink or go to the bathroom or whatever. Steve: I have zero recollection of them saying anything. Steve: So if they said it, it wasn't a prominent point in the episode. Sammi: It was just weird that they focused so much on Oahu and where Joey's living, right? Sammi: Like, it's just so strange. Sammi: And I'm confused that they didn't mention anything. Sammi: And I feel like they've gotten better about stuff like that, where it's like, oh, this is something, even if the conversation is a little put on, where they're like, we're going to have a serious talk, and then they kind of talk about something, then they're like, we're glad we had this serious talk. Sammi: But I was like, this is weird that you're focusing extra on it, that you're bringing in somebody to be on the show who lives on Oahu, and then you don't bring it. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: Anyway, if anybody else feels the same way, let me know. Sammi: But I thought that was OD. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: Totally. Sammi: Not that I think The Bachelor is great for that stuff in general, but it's like if you want to start changing your image and gearing towards a younger audience, you might want to, I don't know, be in touch with reality anyway, especially something like that, where it's. Steve: Like the thing dominating the news cycle. Steve: It's like, hey, you want an easy layup? Steve: Guys just say anything? Steve: Apparently not. Sammi: Oh, well, yeah, it's just really strange. Sammi: Anyway, I'll let you know if I find any conversations about it. Sammi: But I was, like, trying to Google it. Sammi: I was like, is anybody else frustrated about this? Sammi: But I didn't see anything. Sammi: But I also wasn't looking super duper hard. Sammi: I was looking half. Sammi: So charity's, mom. Sammi: Okay, so with datten yes. Sammi: She's like, he checks the boxes, right? Sammi: He's familiar. Sammi: Familiar is easy. Sammi: She wants Charity to have a hard time, I guess I don't. Sammi: And I wrote, well, maybe Joey Winston dotten's the obvious Bachelor, but that wouldn't necessarily make sense. Sammi: Dot, dot, dot. Sammi: I'm like, this is where I start to question myself. Sammi: Yeah, and Charity is having a hard time, too, because she's like, I just want to push. Sammi: I just want a little just a little nudge and like, a direct just tell me how you're feeling. Sammi: And, okay, this is the part where I felt like I was getting tired and I was getting confused, but I know at the very least, she asked her mom, tell me what you think. Sammi: And her mom's like, I'm not going to do that. Sammi: And she's like, why? Sammi: And she's like, I don't know. Sammi: I'm direct. Sammi: And she's like, but you're not being direct right now. Sammi: That's what I gathered out of it. Sammi: It was like her mom was like, well, you know, I'm direct, but I'm not going to do that for you at this moment. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And she's like, don't you know what you want? Sammi: And Charity is like, no, that's why I am asking you. Sammi: And she's like, come on, you know. Sammi: Right. Sammi: You know, you know, she's like and then yeah. Sammi: So she goes so she's confused, whatever. Sammi: She has a date with Joey and he brought a very cute gift for Charity. Sammi: They both did a good job with the gifts. Sammi: And he gives her the poem that they got in New Orleans and that's very oh, she mentioned how the poem made the hairs on her arms stand up and they made the hairs on my arm stand up too. Sammi: So whoever's putting this season together, good job. Sammi: I was like, wow. Sammi: And then I was fully sold on at this point. Sammi: I was like, well, if Joey ends up with Charity, I'm okay with that. Sammi: That's good, I'm happy, that's fine. Steve: This is totally mission accomplished, right? Steve: What is the purpose of this episode? Steve: The purpose of this episode is twofold. Steve: One, to make us question what we know to be absolute reality, which is down, it's going to win. Steve: And two, to make us like Joey as much as humanly possible and potentially make him slightly more interesting than he is. Steve: So that when he is announced as the bachelor, we go, okay, I'm fine with that. Steve: I think they pretty much did it. Steve: And honestly, I don't know when Charity was announced. Steve: I'm sure you can go back to an old episode. Steve: I'll just be like, I don't know, no personality, didn't see anything, whatever. Steve: And she's amazing. Steve: She's like the greatest Bachelorete of all time, practically. Steve: Maybe, maybe this will work out. Steve: Maybe I've been selling Joey short. Sammi: Yeah, I mean that's what always I mean outside of like I feel like I always liked Katie before it was Katie's season, you know what mean? Sammi: Like that was kind of an obvious, like Ashley long time. Sammi: Like there's a few people that and I liked, you know, there's like a few people that I was always like, oh yeah, they're going to be good. Sammi: But there's some people we didn't see until the very end. Sammi: Their know, you get like little glimpses of, um, yeah, I think Joey could definitely be a good mean out of what happened. Sammi: Like everything that happened at the end, I was like, well, he's the only obvious choice. Sammi: Like if you don't choose him, you're going into a different season. Sammi: There's no way. Sammi: And anyway, I'm just like looking through the vulture recap to see if there's anything yeah, if there's any notes in there because I just saw something. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: We're waiting to see if she's going to pick Joey or Don. Sammi: Right. Sammi: We obviously know what uh, and then we get into the then. Sammi: So Brooklyn and Kat are going to be in paradise and Braden's in the audience and they do this paradise promo and they're like four former bachelorettes are crashing the party. Sammi: There's a medical emergency I'm actually really excited about the nine days of no pooping. Steve: Yeah. Steve: I'm also excited about that because we got to hear the word poop baby. Sammi: On national television and a truth box. Sammi: I'm like, all right, okay, cool. Sammi: This sounds great. Sammi: And then there's someone getting married in paradise, and it's probably like an already engaged couple that comes down, like, has happened before, I would assume. Sammi: And then they're like, oh, are Rachel and Brayden going to get together? Sammi: And I got very upset. Sammi: Oh, my God, you better not. Sammi: That sucks. Sammi: And I was looking through this Vulture recap. Sammi: It says, Brayden is here sitting right next to Rachel rechia. Sammi: Get a job. Sammi: Stay away from her et. Sammi: Wait, hold on. Sammi: Wait, what? Sammi: Hold on 1 second. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Sammi: How did I not know who Gabby was dating? Steve: Oh, yeah, so oh, my is this is something that I was hoping to bring up? Steve: Because I guess I'm dense and I didn't really understand or process or notice it, but it's like, oh, Gabby's dating a woman. Steve: I didn't know that. Sammi: H***. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Gabby. Steve: Good job, Gabby. Sammi: Yes. Steve: We love I had I had no idea. Steve: And then I was just like, who's that? Steve: I was, oh, that's so cute. Sammi: And she even posted, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Gabby ayo so that's awesome. Sammi: And now I want to rewatch the finale because I was tired and I did not even oh, apparently. Sammi: Okay, so she was on The View, and in an Instagram post yeah. Sammi: She wrote, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: And yeah. Sammi: So it's Robbie Hoffman. Steve: He's a comedian, right? Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Comedians. Sammi: You should know, apparently. Sammi: And yeah, this was announced on August 2, but I didn't see it because I don't pay attention to this stuff. Sammi: But that's super great. Sammi: And yeah, I'm so happy. Sammi: So one of the things that this Vulture article talks about is, uh, they wanted to see, like, a Robbie cam the whole time, mic her up and then let's the whole the whole gimmick of, like, who's the bachelor and who's going to date him. Sammi: And also, maybe Rachel likes Braden. Sammi: I was like, I can't handle all this stuff right now, okay? Sammi: I'm tired, and I want to know what's in that truth box, and I want to talk more about that poop baby. Sammi: Those are the things I want to talk about. Steve: Yeah. Steve: Very interested in a poop baby. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And then we find out. Sammi: September 20. Sammi: Eigth. Sammi: We're going to be playing double duty, so I don't know what we're going to do. Sammi: We'll have to see if we want to do extra long episodes or two separate Bachelor in paradise and Golden Bachelor episodes. Steve: We're going to figure it out. Sammi: We'll have to figure it out. Sammi: Stay tuned. Sammi: I'm thinking we'll do each one because some people might be interested in one and not the other. Sammi: Otherwise, we'll do, like, a little time stampy in the description. Sammi: So stay tuned for that, obviously. Sammi: Let's see. Sammi: Okay, so we have the last date with Don, and he's so sweet, and it was so cute, and he was like, I'm going to win over your mom. Sammi: Just don't even worry about it. Sammi: And it's like, he's a great guy. Sammi: He can definitely win over moms, so I totally believe that. Sammi: And his gift was very cute. Sammi: He was like, I made a treasure hunt, so how about that? Sammi: And I was like, that's pretty cute. Sammi: And he was like, here's my card, my resident alien card, like the s'mores and little memories of events that they did on their dates. Sammi: And then at the end, it was a locket with their baby faces. Sammi: And he's like, you are my treasure. Sammi: And that was very then. Sammi: But the thing that's weird is we see her. Sammi: Yeah, they really freaking tricked me because she's, like, bringing up Joey on this date, and he says, I love you, and she doesn't say it back. Sammi: And I was like, okay. Sammi: Then we get the Neil Lane scene, which wasn't like, that excessive this time. Sammi: Sometimes it's like, really long Neil Lane stuff. Steve: It's always weird to me because I feel like sometimes we get a lot of Neil Lane the man, and not just Neil Lane, the know, and other times you don't see Neil at. Steve: And this this was a Neil appearance season. Sammi: Yeah, it was a Neil appearance, but it was not as major. Sammi: I mean, usually I would say with The Bachelor, Neil is around more, but he was in the audience. Steve: It's just so funny to me because I'm sure in the jewelry world, he's a big deal, but if you're like, who's Neil Lane? Steve: I'm like, oh, that's the guy who gives the rings on The Bachelor. Sammi: I actually think that is the biggest deal. Sammi: Well, I think but I don't know. Sammi: Let's see if we can figure this out. Sammi: Hold on. Sammi: I feel like I looked this up before, and it was kind of like I thought that that was kind of the biggest thing. Sammi: I thought his name recognition did get bigger because of The Bachelor, and that propelled some of his career. Sammi: Oh, here we go. Sammi: Here we go. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: Reddit is all over. Steve: Always. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: But yeah, okay. Sammi: Apparently oh, interesting. Sammi: He turned them down for a while, and he doesn't watch The Bachelor, which I think we found out recently that he didn't watch The Bachelor, which I think is very funny. Sammi: So it's like his only frame of reference is getting flown in for these moments and these live appearances, and that's it. Sammi: And he doesn't watch the show. Sammi: That's kind of awesome. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So someone said, okay, yeah, I think it's kind of like a Vera Wang type of thing at this point, you. Steve: Know what I mean? Sammi: Where it's like there is a prestige brand and then you can also go to Kohl's. Steve: Exactly. Sammi: You know what I mean? Sammi: I think it was kind of like and yeah, someone said, I went into Kate and his rings are ugly. Sammi: Lol. Sammi: I'm sorry. Sammi: Yeah, it's like, if you're going to get Neil Lane from K, I would assume that that's not the same as the other stuff he yeah, yeah. Steve: I would imagine he's got his higher tier stuff. Steve: I like the Vera Wang comparison. Sammi: That's the way I kind of always thought about Neil Lane. Sammi: And from these comments on Reddit, that's the impression I'm getting. Sammi: As I say about Kay, every kiss begins at the mall. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And apparently oh, gosh, I didn't even realize that. Sammi: So this was like 2009. Sammi: Neil Lane feels so omnipresent that I did not realize it's only been Neil Lane for like, 14 years. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Yeah. Steve: Before that he was day one guy. Sammi: I know. Sammi: Before that it was Harry Winston. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: There's a comment on Reddit that says, in the industry, neil Lane is considered to be a little goblin character. Sammi: And someone said, how so? Sammi: And then there's like some deleted stuff, so I don't know about that. Sammi: Anyway, yeah, someone said, okay, yeah. Sammi: Neil Lane for Celebs is high end. Sammi: Neil Lane at K is mediocre. Sammi: Yeah, same as Verawing. Sammi: I would yeah. Sammi: Very interesting. Sammi: He used to design customs for A list celebrities like Barbara Streisand, Elizabeth Taylor, and Angelina Jolie. Sammi: Interesting. Sammi: He's like mid tier, they say. Steve: Oh, man. Steve: You hear that? Steve: Neil Lane. Steve: You're just mid, baby. Sammi: You're mid. Sammi: You're mid, Neil. Sammi: Well, he's never going to listen to this. Sammi: He doesn't watch the show. Sammi: He's not going to listen to a random sorry, Neil, but yeah. Sammi: So very interesting. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So we had a Neil Lane scene, and then Charity comes out in her dress and I started tearing up. Sammi: So again, I was tired, but I don't know, this finale really did a number on me. Sammi: And then she started to cry or almost cried. Sammi: And I was like, don't cry. Sammi: Your makeup's so pretty. Sammi: And then as soon as Joey gets out of the car, my stomach dropped and so do the audiences. Sammi: And I was like, you tricked me. Sammi: You tricked me, you tricked me. Sammi: And I was like, well, he's going to be a great bachelor. Sammi: And I cried so much during this whole interaction. Sammi: It was awful. Sammi: I was like, not okay. Steve: So emotion. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The dogs came over. Sammi: They were like, do you need some support? Sammi: And I was like, I am not. Sammi: And like, Tuck was sleeping, obviously. Sammi: Well, this was like yeah, because this was in the morning by the time I watched this. Sammi: But he was like, in the other room with the dogs, and I'm like, crying. Sammi: And they come over and they're like, what do you need, mom? Sammi: And I was like, I am just not okay. Sammi: But what was really sweet was she did not cut him off, which was nice because I feel like a lot of the times the bacheloretes cut the men off. Sammi: Don't propose yet, but he kind of waited for a second anyway, like, should I keep going? Sammi: And then she did a little I thought it was nice that she had a speech for him because I don't feel like they always do that or it doesn't feel prepared or whatever. Sammi: And he was just like, It's okay. Sammi: He knew it was hard, and she's trying to get all this out, and she's upset. Sammi: And he was like, It's okay. Sammi: And she's like, Well, I got to do this. Sammi: I want to do the whole thing. Sammi: I want you to hear this whole thing. Sammi: It's important to me. Sammi: And then she's like, I found love that's deeper with someone else, and I'm crying. Sammi: I think she wins for the best goodbye speech ever to yeah, I was just, like, a f** mess. Sammi: And then Joey's in the audience, and then he gives the best bachelor audition in the car, and the audience is silent, and I'm just is really this is really great. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: That whole moment was really awesome. Sammi: And then Zach's in the right, so, like, they go through this whole thing. Sammi: Like, Joey leaves, he's in the car, whatever, and at some point they pan to Zach, and I'm like, God, both of these guys are so much better than Zach. Sammi: And so really, there wasn't a bad direction for her to go, I don't think. Sammi: It's like she's just got to decide how she feels, and she's got to make that choice, which is always nice. Steve: Too, because sometimes I'm like, no, not him, and this time you're good. Steve: Anybody's fine. Steve: Well, not Aaron. Steve: And even Aaron. Steve: There's nothing wrong with him. Sammi: With Aaron. Sammi: If she liked Aaron the most, I'd be like, that's fine. Steve: That's okay. Steve: Some people have no taste, but that's all you. Steve: You do. Steve: You it's not harmful. Sammi: That just reminded me of I don't know why. Sammi: I'm, like, thinking about classic York. Sammi: Like, even Louis Vuitton makes so Joey is going to see Charity now. Sammi: He gives his little spiel with Jessie. Sammi: It's like all kind of the normal the. Sammi: I've done a lot of thinking and healing, and I'm on the other side, and I understand, and I just love and support her, and I just want her to be happy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And this is, like one of the most amicable reuniting moments, too, that I remember on the show, where it's just like, she looks sparkly and beautiful, and he's, like, giving her the biggest hug, and it was really sweet. Sammi: And he's still kind of, you can tell, emotional about it. Sammi: He's getting all twisty faced about it. Sammi: He's like, AW, shucks OD golly g whiz whatever. Sammi: They made him very likable. Sammi: They did a really good job because I was, like, a mess, and it was good, and then it's like, okay, now it's time for Dotton. Sammi: And I was so emotional about the Joey thing. Sammi: I was just kind of like, well, I knew this was going to happen, they tricked me, now I feel indignant and this all turned out just fine. Sammi: I think what it is, is they are both very comfortable with each other and that's like what you need for a normal relationship. Sammi: You should feel very comfortable with each other. Sammi: And so I think the familiarity is good here. Sammi: And it didn't feel like this with her and Joey. Sammi: I feel like it's a little more I don't know, there was more chemistry and an explosive exciting way. Sammi: But with her and Datten, it just feels very safe and comfortable in a very good way. Sammi: That's important. Steve: Yeah, she made the right call and it's the difference between maybe a sprint and a marathon here. Steve: And it's not to say that both these men would have provided her with plenty of happiness, but I think Datten is probably the better choice for something that you see as a long term relationship. Steve: And Charity was super smart about it and she dumped Joey in the best way possible. Steve: I don't know how she does it. Steve: It exceeds even the abilities of the editing on The Bachelor and the just she's got it down. Sammi: She handled everything perfectly the whole season. Sammi: I feel like we've watched so many seasons of Bachelors and Bacheloretes kind of like step in it and yeah, not a single flub. Sammi: Perfect season. Steve: It's kind of mind boggling, too, because it can be so stressful and emotional and god, breakups are f** messy. Steve: They're so messy. Steve: And the fact that she was able to not only every single guy leading up to Joey and those are probably easier because some of those guys were you get you get down to Joey who is a man that you could probably marry and probably be pretty happy with and to just let him down like that, it was like a master class. Steve: It was incredible. Steve: Never seen anything like ten out of ten. Sammi: Charity, yeah, she's extremely emotionally mature. Sammi: This is obvious, we know this. Sammi: And yeah, she did awesome. Sammi: Chef's kiss. Sammi: What a great season. Sammi: Very happy about it. Sammi: I thought it was really cute at the end that they showed that she was standing on a box. Sammi: I thought that was adorable. Sammi: I love little behind the scenes things like that. Sammi: And she's like, yeah, love just makes you so happy. Sammi: You get taller and then they just show the box. Sammi: I was like, that's adorable. Sammi: They're just very cute together. Sammi: And yeah, he can keep her safe from lizards or whatever. Sammi: It's good. Sammi: And his family is like, that's like winning the Jackpot. Sammi: They're a really cool family. Sammi: That's one of the best families I've ever seen be on the show. Sammi: And his mom being someone who's really hard to win over and going, yeah, you're my family now. Sammi: And Grandma being like, these two are joined at the soul, or whatever the h*** she said. Sammi: I'm like, yeah, I mean, I just feel like you can't get better than that. Sammi: As long as you like the family and you like him, you're in. Sammi: That's very easy. Sammi: Then some life coach started talking, and I was like, oh, god, I need food. Sammi: I need breakfast, because it was late in the day, and I just did not want to hear this. Sammi: Life coach chuck. Sammi: And then this was like one of the people. Sammi: I was like, are you going to date the bears? Sammi: And then mom we get to see charity's mom, and they're like, okay, how are you feeling? Sammi: She's like, I'm happy now. Sammi: Yeah, he's good. Sammi: I like him. Sammi: He's pretty good. Sammi: Or was. Sammi: She wasn't like, oh, my god, he's the like, yeah, I really like him. Sammi: I think at some point and again, I was tired. Sammi: Didn't we see Danton's family and his mom in the audience getting emotional over everything? Steve: I thought this audience was they were put through the wringer. Steve: I'm pretty sure they were there, too, but yeah, everyone was super emotion, including datten's people. Sammi: I was so emotional, I just stopped paying attention. Sammi: Yeah, it was so then and then she shows off her find that, personally, this is just personal. Sammi: I find the rings kind of boring. Sammi: They're just like one big rock. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: But I'm glad she likes it. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: This was interesting. Sammi: Do you think they're going to shoot the golden bachelor different the whole time? Sammi: Do you think the style of shooting is going to be different? Sammi: Because did you notice how soft they made it and the camera work was all different. Sammi: Is it just for the promo, you think, or what do you think? Steve: I think that is just for the promo, but it definitely has a softer, different look to it. Steve: It's almost like soap opera esque in its presentation, which I guess is appropriate. Steve: It is somewhat reminiscent of very early seasons of the bachelor. Steve: So if you go back to the first three seasons yeah. Sammi: Where it's like a little more like romanticy. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And I don't know if that is intentional or if I'm just like my brain has been permanently poisoned by watching the show for so many years. Steve: But I think based on the previews alone, it looks like it's going to have a slightly different aesthetic, and I am perfectly fine and open with that. Steve: Because if there's one thing that you can criticize about the Bachelor and honestly don't make it one thing, make it a million things, because there's plenty. Steve: But if there's one thing you can consistently criticize, is that they recycle the same ideas and visual cues and everything over and over and over and over again, so anything that can push them out of their comfort zone. Steve: And I do think that old people are going to help with this because, oh, my god, the kinds of problems and emotional issues and things that they're going to have to deal with are going to be totally different from the normal crap that comes up on the bachelor to bachelorette. Steve: And when it's not different, when it's like, oh, and so and so has an 80 year old husband back home, that's going to be even funnier and crazier, so bring it on. Steve: I'm here for it, whatever it is. Sammi: So and so has an 80 year old husband back home. Sammi: I like that idea. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm kind of wondering if it's going to be messy in any way or if it is just going to be kind of like sweet and sentimental the whole time. Steve: I hope not. Sammi: I know you hope not, but I'm just kind of like not totally sure anymore. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm interested to see what happens. Sammi: We don't have to wait super long. Sammi: We've got about a month and you'll hear from us at least one time in between then. Sammi: Do you think they're going to let the dog stay with him? Sammi: Because that dog is obsessed. Sammi: That was the cutest dog. Sammi: Oh, my god, don't tell me. Steve: In my heart, yes, but in reality, I think they're probably going to have. Sammi: To say no because who had their dog? Sammi: One of the bachelorettes, right. Sammi: Had their dog with them or bachelors. Steve: It just seems like a nightmare, like all the traveling they do and it's just stressful for the dog, too. Sammi: I think it was just domestic. Sammi: Do you remember wait, hold on. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: Golly, I don't remember. Sammi: There was one now. Sammi: I just found the rambo thing, but yeah, there was one where it was like, oh, my dog came with me. Sammi: Do you remember talking about anyway, whatever. Steve: Well, rachel lindsay's dog cooper appeared alongside her on the Bachelorete season 13. Sammi: I just tried to that's what it was. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: God, I mean, so much happened on rachel's season. Sammi: I forgot it was yeah. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Steve: I had tried to forget rambo dog guy, but unfortunately rambo dog guy has now been brought back into my memory bank. Steve: So thank you, Sammi. Sammi: Yeah, I think it was just local, right? Sammi: It was just like when they were in the states, the dog was there, so I was just like, maybe that would be a thing that would happen again. Sammi: Because that was very cute and I really liked that. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: And then, okay, so there's no set date. Sammi: So we see charity and Dotton and of mean, I don't think there's ever at least I don't remember in the history of the show them being like, oh, and it's probably, are joe and serena married yet? Sammi: Because otherwise they'll be the ones I. Steve: Don'T know if they're married, but they did a commercial for concealer or something together. Sammi: They've been doing that a lot. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Mark my words, they're going to be the couple in paradise that gets married. Steve: It seems. Steve: So their star is rising. Steve: Grocery store joe is the international commercial superstar. Steve: Honestly, grocery store joe, you're acting in these commercials. Steve: You got speaking lines. Steve: Are you SAG brother? Steve: Like, should you be on the picket line? Steve: Maybe, I don't know. Sammi: Oh, interesting. Sammi: Didn't think about that. Sammi: Anyway, so yeah, I think they're going to get married in paradise. Sammi: That's my I don't I can't remember any time where they're like, oh, yeah, we have a set know. Sammi: But they're like, we're enjoying the season of our she's going they're going to Greece. Sammi: She's always wanted to go to Greece. Sammi: And so she's going to get to go to Greece, which is sweet. Sammi: And then she's also going to be on Dancing with the Stars, which is like not shocking but cool. Sammi: And then Joey gets announced as the new bachelor and we kind of knew that. Sammi: And the first woman that we meet who lives on Oahu or well, she moved to La. Sammi: But she's from Oahu. Sammi: She's joining Joey. Sammi: And then yeah, so they're excited. Sammi: But then she gets an envelope. Sammi: It's not a date card, but we don't know what it is until night one. Sammi: And that's as much surprise as they can know because Jesse is like, well, you've never seen anything like this. Sammi: And I'm like, this is like a pretty normal season. Sammi: But you were like, we're going to give you a trip so we can say it was a surprise. Sammi: We're not going to tell you about Dancing with the Stars until here. Sammi: So it's a surprise. Sammi: Charity has got to be getting tired of surprises at this point because they also surprise her with a Bachelorete. Steve: Remember that's the theme for her series. Sammi: She's like, okay, here it goes. Steve: Boys under pressure. Steve: The charity story. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I mean, for real. Sammi: She's like always handles surprises well but I don't know if she actually likes them. Sammi: We'll see. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: I'm looking through to see if there's anything else I missed. Sammi: That was kind of the big stuff. Sammi: I don't feel like there was just not a lot to say. Sammi: Somehow we filled 45 minutes, but there wasn't a lot to say about this episode except I cried a lot and it was good. Sammi: And I'm excited for the Golden Bachelor. Sammi: I'm excited for Bachelor in paradise and I'm excited for Joey being the bachelor. Sammi: And that's fun because when's the last time I got excited about a bachelor? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: It's been a really long time. Steve: Yeah, it's been a while. Steve: But yeah. Steve: Kudos to production for, again, taking a foregone conclusion, making it dramatic and selling me on someone that I thought was fine but boring. Steve: So just high marks all around. Steve: Charity's great. Steve: Everything's great. Steve: Sammi stayed up too late, got super emotional. Steve: It's okay. Steve: Nothing wrong with that. Steve: There's nothing wrong with it. Sammi: I'm excited all of you. Sammi: I did it for all of you. Sammi: And then we got home last night at like 10:00 and I mentioned this off recording. Sammi: We played pinball until I don't know. Sammi: This is a problem. Sammi: We played pinball until bar closed and so, yeah, my mind's kind of fresh, but I'm just coming off vacation, so if I repeated myself a lot, you knew what you were getting into. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: You knew what this was also. Sammi: You're welcome. Sammi: I hope you got your dishes done or got to your workplace or cleaned your office or whatever it is you're doing right now. Sammi: And I'm so excited. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The jilly box has made it through customs. Sammi: It should be here in a day or two. Sammi: And the grand reveal is coming soon, so you'll get to enjoy that shortly. Sammi: And it'll be a nice break. Sammi: Hopefully we can get it done before school starts. Sammi: And then once I'm in the swing of things for school, we'll have the golden bachelor and bachelor in paradise to record. Steve: Love. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: If you want to see my slow decline into madness, come back on or before the last week of September, and I'm sure that's what you're going to get to see. Steve: That's right. Steve: We're making q four. Steve: Every month of Q four is mental health awareness month on our podcast. Sammi: It's going to be like, why did I decide to do biostatistics and biochemistry in the same semester? Sammi: Why? Sammi: Anyway, so take care of yourselves, friends. Sammi: Take care of each other if you haven't had a chance. Sammi: I mean, we are in the last moments of summer. Sammi: I know a lot of us had a heat wave recently. Sammi: At least here it's broken. Sammi: Make sure you're getting outside. Sammi: Enjoy that weather. Sammi: Go for a nice long walk. Sammi: That's what I'm about to do when I get off of here and make jam as well. Sammi: And, yeah, just enjoy those last moments that you have before it gets cold and dark, if you're in a part of the world where that happens. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And you know what? Steve: I'm going down to the lake as soon as this call is done. Steve: I'm going to walk around. Steve: I'm going to probably eat a snack. Steve: I'm going to watch the sunset. Steve: It's going to be beautiful. Steve: You know what I'm not going to do? Steve: I'm not going to do needle drugs, because you shouldn't do needle drugs. Steve: Don't do needle drugs. Steve: You got to hit them with the triple because they going to hear from us for a little while. Sammi: We'll be back with a jilly box. Steve: And a double bachelor experience. Steve: Oh, lordy.

As we close out the 2022 season, Josiah takes the DM seat and leads Steve (Wow), John (Tawnka), and Dave (Pepper) into a winter wonderland... of death! Or something like that.

As we close out the 2022 season, Josiah takes the DM seat and leads Steve (Wow), John (Tawnka), and Dave (Pepper) into a winter wonderland... of death! Or something like that.

info@podcastone.com345b4822-957a-40d4-9543-52efb0eabe2fFri, 15 Apr 2022 11:21:37 PDTDonna & Steve00:05:19

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Steve Fornier this morning who was sitting in for Jim Polito. We discussed what the James Dyson Foundation is providing to families to interest their kids in Engineering and what the Business world will look like post-COVID. So, here we go with Steve Fornier For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig So what we did is we took the opportunity with her to say, Okay, well, let's do it. Let's make here's a recipe with feeds four people. So now we need to feed six people. So at the age of about five or six, she was doing fractions in her head. Hey, we went through a few more tips this morning. And Mr. Jim Polito is out. So Steve Fornier is sitting in for him. And I managed to work murder Hornets into this morning's interview, so here we go. Steve Welcome back to the Jim Polito show. It is Steve Fornier here in Springfield in for Jim this morning. And again, I a guy that I think is just such a valuable resource at a time like this. Craig Peterson joins us, our tech talk guru Craig. Good morning. How are you doing, sir? Craig Good morning, doing well. Steve First of all, Craig, I want to say thank you for your contributions, and I know that you also gave our radio stations a bunch of tech talk tips that we can use that we can run here on the stations. And I think that's so valuable. So I want to say thank you for providing us with that stuff. Craig Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, it took a long time. Those little features are about a minute and a half to two minutes long talking about the tech stuff. Steve How do you boil it down to just something that's just a minute or two long? That's my entire job, Craig is spitting 40 seconds worth of stuff into a 30-second spot. So I hear you that. Craig Today is National Teacher Appreciation Day, which I think is so important. And you have some cool resources for parents to help the kids out. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Craig Yeah, this one is just totally cool. I don't know if you know, but my wife and I have eight kids, and we homeschooled them. Steve Your baseball team. Craig Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, you know from Canada, so it's closer to a hockey team. But anyway, the whole time up to college in fact, now they've gone on to get advanced degrees. But what you have to do with your kids is look at their interests. We had a young daughter, I think she was about five or six years old, and she loved to cook she loves to bake. And so what we did is we took the opportunity with her to say, Okay, well, let's do it. Let's make here's a recipe with seeds for people. So now we need to feed six people. So at the age of about five or six, she was doing fractions in her head. She was multiplying fractions dividing fractions because she loved to cook—somebody like you, Steve, who loves sports. If you have a little boy or girl that's interested in baseball, teach them how to figure out the statistics. And which stats are better? Is it better to bat a 300 or 400? And what does that mean? You take those opportunities, and that's what Dyson has come up with James Dyson's foundation. He is the guy that makes those vacuum cleaners that are kind of cool some high tech fans and other things. His foundation has put together this list of about two dozen different challenges for kids. And the idea behind it is to get them interested and expose them to engineering concepts. You know, they have some simple things like can you skewer a balloon that's inflated without poping it? How about taking a nail electroplating it? How can you cover it in copper? Well, how would you do that? And then a classic I remember when I was a little kid is plugging a clock into a potato making a potato battery. So all of these things are designed as challenges specifically for kids. They're ideal in the home or the classroom. And the whole idea is to get kids excited about engineering. Steve Yeah, into just give them something to do right to let them put down the fortnight controller and, and be productive. You know, while we're all sitting around. Craig Yeah, I think that might be a difficult one for some people because so many of these video games are very, very addicting, and the whole science behind them is fascinating. But this is great. So I'm going to we'll get them outside. They'll get them in the kitchen. They'll get them doing some things. So just search online right now you'll be able to find it. It's the James Dyson Foundation spelled D Y S O N. Steve By the way, I learned Craig thanks to Final Jeopardy earlier this week. Maybe that Dyson also invented the wheelbarrow. So how about that? What is who is Dyson? Cool there? We're talking with Greg Peterson, and I do have sort of an off the radar question. I wanted to fire at you towards the end. So stay on alert for that, Greg, but can you tell us a little bit about telecommuting. Post COVID-19, it's going to be a little different. How can you tell us out? Craig Yeah, we're seeing some fascinating numbers starting to come out right now most businesses have got some sort of telecommuting in place now. Many of them have been looking at how do I secure it now? How do I make it more efficient, make it faster for people? What we're starting to see from these C-levels and the executive offices, who are trying to figure out what's it going to look like, is that they are serious about moving out of the big cities. So I think you're going to see a lot of the businesses moving from a Boston, for instance. Closer to Western or Springfield, smaller cities, and even smaller towns, some of these corporate buildings in Chicago are already emptying. We've seen the same thing in Detroit for many years. So post COVID-19, we're going to see that many of their employees have ten times more than pre-COVID-19. Ten times more employees about 40% or maybe more will be working from home on a long term basis. Steve Whether or not they want to. I mean, like yes, some people don't want to be stuck in the house all day with their family and some businesses. Craig Some businesses still have their people getting together? What I'm thinking is that we are going to see more people working from home, but it's not going to be five days a week. They may be working from home four days a week or three days a week and going into the office once or twice, but that's going to happen. It is going to have a devastating impact on real estate, the business real estate out there, frankly. But we're going to see just a dramatic a giant increase from January and people working from home on Craigslist, anything. Steve Like I don't know how to say this is the impact that COVID-19 is having in the big cities? Is that a part of it too, because it just seems like, you know, the cities that are being hit the hardest. New York City, Boston, you know, major metropolitan cities, is that a part of it too, just keeping your employees safe, and, you know, understanding the threat that there isn't a big city. Craig So that's a massive part of it. Most of the major corporations are not planning any sort of travel even until the probably next year 2021. And when you're looking at the big cities, it is a considerable risk. You know, as a business, we can't afford to lose some of our best talents, and when Many companies have been placed strategies that say hey listen, you guys cannot be on the same airplane traveling somewhere you cannot be in this location together. And because of what we've seen with COVID-19, there are a lot of businesses that are being Steve all just a whole lot more cautious about having people in one place. I talk to business people who are saying that for them in reality. It has been a big wake up call because having everyone in the office but spreading these germs, even for the flu for instance, but when you've got something like this virus we have today where we don't know what's going to happen, having them all in one office and sharing it the big problem. I have a client who is an HVAC contractor, and they are starting to install air handling units that have ultraviolet light inside of them. They have heavy HEPA filters that put into them all in an effort for businesses to be able to keep the offices safe so that they are not spreading disease in the office. It's going to be a whole new world. Steve Yeah, sure is. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru and Craig, I do have a question sort of out of the left-field that I think you can help with solve security questions. It is today's world from the eyes of a hacker, these security questions, just don't cut it for me, like, what is your dad's but what is your mom's maiden name? Like? I feel like that's very easy to find on the internet. If you're a hacker, what you know what street did you grow up on? Well, we can figure that out pretty easily on the Yellow Pages calm. Um, I'm to the point now where it's I'm answering questions like, you know, what's your dog's name and I'm answering like purple because I Hope they will get it. Is that the best approach to just sort of lie on all these questions? Craig Yeah, it is, you know, in this day and age of murder Hornets, we have to be extra cautious. But yeah, what I've done for the last 30-40 years. I got my first job ever. I wrote some computer software used for magazine distribution stuff. I came to realize that hey, they are tracking us. So always since then, I have been making up the answers to all of those questions, just wholly random words. And I have been using one password, which is a password manager, to a great one. It's the one I recommend to everybody. There are other password managers out there, but it'll generate passwords for you. It'll store notes securely, etc. So you're doing the right thing, Steve, every website that I go to, that's asking those security Questions. I have it either one password randomly pick words for me, or I just make up something that's completely nonsensical. And sometimes, when you get on with the tech support or PII or help desk people, and they ask one of those questions, they chuckle. They ask, what's that? What's that all about? Now, there is a line. You cannot erase the lease not supposed to lie on certain types of applications. So if it's financial information, if it's government-related stuff, you can undoubtedly make top answers to those recovery questions. But you can't just totally lie about who you are. But I have dozens and dozens of identities, Steve that I use on just random websites. They don't need to know who I am. So I only use some made-up identity, and sometimes I'm a guy, sometimes I'm female, you know, different ages, everything else because they don't need to know that. I don't want the hacker To be able to examine my life on LinkedIn or my website or Facebook and come up with the answers. Steve Yeah, no, that that was my thought is how simple it is. Especially if you have if you're not like a private thing, if you don't have a personal Twitter or a private Facebook, you know, you're opening yourself up to getting that information, the hackers getting that information, and then then you know, they're in. So very interesting. I appreciate that. I have been fighting that battle with the security question thing now. Craig Well, that's not right. Now that's a $15 billion industry, sending out those phishing emails and trying to figure out what someone's information is and using that to do spearfishing. It's all part of business email compromise, which the FBI says I'm more than $15 billion industry right now. Steve Wow. That's crazy. Craig, this is excellent stuff, folks. And if you want more from Craig, you can do that. We'll go with the name, Jim, for consistency, but you can do text, the name Jim, to this number. Craig to 855 385 5553. So let's just text and Jim to 855 385 5553. Steve And as always good stuff, Craig, if you want more information on those different activities for the kids, again, you will find it at Dyson is the name of the company. Likewise, if you get in touch with Craig, he's more than willing to help out. And like I said, Craig, we appreciate you, especially this time. It's valuable stuff. And we understand it. So thanks again. Craig All right, take care. Bye-Bye, guys. Steve Thank you. Thank you. There goes everybody, Craig Peterson. And great stuff. Craig I've been sort of mulling over the security question thing for a while that just like what street did you grow up on? That's specific information to come up with if you're a hacker, it's just to me it just seems way too easy. So yeah, what street did you grow up on honeysuckle? It's not honeysuckle, but that's what I'm, you know, whatever. You're right. Just make sure you write them all down somewhere. And then I'll use the one password it can have secure notes. Don't forget it. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for reaching out to me yesterday. Text Me Me at Craig Peterson dot com. I appreciate that. I got a couple of excellent comments. I think I might be onto something here through something that's going to help you guys out. So anyhow, have a great day. I expect I'll be back tomorrow if I have a decent interview on WGAN as well. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

I'm very excited to be here today and introduce a guest and one of my good friends.   We're actually partnering in a product that you might not know about.   I thought it'd be cool to bring the genius behind the product itself on the show and tell you guys about it and why it's been so awesome.   My guest today is one of the most sought after Chatbot builders that I know of.   Even amongst the ClickFunnels inner circle, Nico is one that is consistently mentioned and pointed back to.   Being able to have him on the show is a real treat.   Without further ado, everybody please welcome Mister Nico Moreno.   CHATBOTS FOR MLM WITH NICO MORENO   How are you doing, man?   Nico Moreno: Oh, I'm doing great, Steve. Thanks so much for having me.   It's a pleasure to be here. I’m really honored and excited.   Steve Larsen: This is awesome. Thanks for taking the time.   Nico Moreno: Yeah, absolutely.   Steve: I can't remember how it was we got connected…   Nico Moreno: I remember, I think…   Steve: Do you? Okay. You can tell the story. [chuckle]   Nico Moreno: Well, I remember the first time we talked... The first time we spoke in person.   It was at Funnel Hacking Live two years ago in Dallas.   Steve: Yeah.   Nico Moreno: I signed up for the FHAT event and I was asking you about it.   I was like, "I don't know if this is right for me."   And you were like, "Oh well, here's all the things to consider."   That was the first time we spoke in person. Other than that, I'm not sure if we were connected before or after on Facebook…   Steve: Yeah. I started thinking about ways I could use Chatbots for MLM and webinars… Things like that on the internet, and more things in the MLM space.   I can't even remember who it was, but somebody in Russel's inner circle that was like, "Oh my gosh, you have got to see this guy. His name's Nico."   And I started looking through your stuff, and I was like, "This guy is as psycho about Chatbots for MLM as I am about funnels, and I love that."   I was like, "I need to get connected with this 'cause it's so crazy."   I don't remember how it happened…. But I reached out and you said YES!   THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER CHATBOTS FOR MLM   For anyone who doesn't know… Nico is one of the MOST sought after Chatbot builders.   He created really cool Chatbot sequences for the MLM space, specifically for our purposes.   If somebody wants a sample of your product or they want to get on the phone with you, it guides them.   It lets them control the conversation rather than you trying to sell them.   How did you get started building chatbots?   Nico Moreno: It's an interesting story…   One-and-a-half - two years ago I saw that it was possible to add a Messenger Chatbot to a Facebook ad and I was like, "Oh, that's new. Okay, I'll just try it out."   So I tried it out and it worked pretty well for an ad. I got some decent results.   Then I started playing around with this software, ManyChat, which is the software that I use to build Chatbots for MLM. From there, I was like, "Hey, you know what? These worked pretty well for my ads, I wonder if there's a way to get people to sign up for my webinar."   I've had a bunch of different Facebook groups throughout the years. But at that point, I had a decent sized Facebook group. I was like, "Hey, what if I invited people to a webinar but I had them register by clicking on my Chatbot link instead of with email?"   TESTING CHATBOTS FOR A WEBINAR   So I tested that… And it was partly because I was lazy.   I didn't wanna set up the email sequence and I also wanted to experiment and see if it worked.   So I got my Chatbot link all ready and I was like, "Hey guys, I'm doing a live webinar this Thursday. If you want to attend, click on the Chatbot link and get signed up."   The results were INCREDIBLE.   I can't remember the exact number… But I wanna say I had a 50%-60% show-up rate.   Steve: WOW.   Nico Moreno: For my LIVE webinar, which is...   Steve: That's NOT normal.   Nico Moreno: I didn't set up any emails for the webinar and I was getting 90%+ open rates on the Chatbot messages too.   Steve: 90%?   Nico Moreno: Yeah. Some were even close to 100%. It was crazy   Steve: That's higher than a text message to a friend.   Nico Moreno: That's so true. Sometimes you just don't respond to your friends… But people respond to Chatbots.   That was the first time I really got into them. I was like, "There's something really special here. I know that all my friends in the Funnel Hacker community and ClickFunnels community do webinars too. They need to know about this."   USING CHATBOTS FOR YOUR WEBINAR   As you probably know the typical show-up rate for a webinar is in the 20%-30% range.   Steve: Yeah, if it's super good you’ll get 20%-25%.   Nico Moreno: So when I got 40%-50% from using that little Chatbot, I was like, "Holy crap. This is something that all my friends need to know about."   Then I started talking about it and showing people what I had done for that webinar to get so many people showing up.   A big part of your webinar strategy is the actual follow-up sequence after the webinar. Because I had such an incredible open rate on the Chatbot messages, I noticed people were buying more of the offer through the follow-up sequence.   It was pretty cool. That's how I got into building Chatbots and helping other people with Chatbots for MLM.   I just did it for myself and then I realized, "Wow, there is something really special here." And then I started sharing it with other people.   Steve: What you were doing is NOT normal.   Nico Moreno: It's so unintuitive.   But at the same time, once you see it in action and once you see it behind the scenes in your ManyChat account, you're like, "Oh okay, it makes sense."   CHATBOTS FOR MLM ARE BETTER THAN EMAIL   It's the same overall strategy and psychology as an email sequence for webinar registrations.   But it's that much BETTER because it's personalized. It lets the prospect or the lead engage with your Bot in a one-on-one way.   And it's in real-time.   It feels like a real-time conversation. It's like webinars on steroids.   Everybody's already on Facebook.   Another cool thing is the ease of transitioning people over from a Facebook ad to Facebook Messenger. It just pops up right into their Messenger inbox.   A Facebook ad shows up in the newsfeed, then they click on the link, and then it pops up in a whole new tab.   THEN you're getting people to enter their email address. This way is sooo much more seamless, and you keep people on the platform that they're already on.   It's really, really powerful.   Steve: Yeah that's powerful. You don’t have to move people to other places. By keeping them in the same place, you're gonna decrease that funnel friction.   Nico Moreno: Totally.   CREATING YOUR FIRST CHATBOTS FOR MLM   Steve: You and I were chatting before we turned the recorder on… And you were mentioning how one of the BIGGEST false beliefs people have is that "It's technical, it's scary, it's something brand new. I gotta learn how to code."   While you and I both know, it's NOT super technical.   What should somebody be thinking about when they create a Chatbot for the first time?   Nico Moreno: I'm glad that you brought that up because the #1 question I get in my Facebook group is, "Where do I get started?"   They just feel so overwhelmed. They're like, "It's so technical. I don't know what to do. Please just help me get started."   THE MANYCHAT CHATBOT   The number one thing to realize is the software that I use and that I recommend to absolutely everyone, it's called ManyChat. That software does 95% of the heavy lifting.   There's NO coding.   When you use that software, there's ZERO coding. It's   all drag and drop.   It's kind of like ClickFunnels but for Bots.   Of course, there's the strategy and the psychology and the marketing behind it… But as far as the tech stuff, the software does all of the hard work for you.   There's NO coding. NOTHING technical.   The only thing you have to do is add in the copy and edit in the actual words.   You can add some emojis and make it fun.   It's super easy and it's super user-friendly. If you give yourself five minutes… You’ll be able to figure it out.   Steve: A whole five minutes?   Nico Moreno: It's really not hard.   The only hard part is getting yourself to login into ManyChat, I promise.   Steve: Their Pro Plan is $10 or something, isn't it? It's super cheap.   Nico Moreno: Yeah. I always recommend that people get the Pro Plan. It's only $10 per month.   Super affordable and absolutely worth it with some of the cool things that you can do.   It's unbelievable.   USING A CHATBOT FOR ANYTHING   Steve: What's some of the easiest ways someone could still use a Chatbot for MLM without having a full-blown webinar?   Nico Moreno: There's a ton of different ways.   If you have an e-commerce store, you can actually sell certain types of products. Facebook is a little bit strict about the types of products so you gotta read the articles and just be aware.   You can sell products through Messenger and accept payments through a Messenger Bot.   If you're in the e-commerce space, definitely check that out.   Probably the most relevant thing right here today is, you can get people on board with your MLM opportunity. Whether it's a product or a business opportunity.   Steve and I were working on something a while back that allows MLMers to get people into their Chatbot and into their world.   It works like a traffic light, guiding people to take the next steps. It really takes care of that whole prospecting process for you.   It'll send them to the right links and the right pages if they want a free sample of something.   Or it can also guide them to take the steps if they wanna book a phone call with you.   So it really can automate the whole front end process of any online business. For example:   Coaching Consulting Digital products   It's sooo versatile and sooo powerful.   I'm on a mission to get people to realize what a big opportunity they have right underneath their noses.   CHATBOTS FOR MLM   Steve: You’re talking about a product called Chatbots For MLM.   If you guys go to chatbotsformlm.com, you can find out more about that.   In this industry, it's not always fun to go out and cold approach people.   Instead, Nico has it up in such a way that when people come to you on Facebook, you can very softly pitch your people and start steering them to the places that they would choose to go without you having to say anything.   Nico Moreno: Totally.   THREE STEPS TO A SUCCESSFUL CHATBOT   Steve: What's the easiest way for someone to get started with this?   Should somebody start by selling a product, or generating the phone call? Are there patterns you've seen that cause success the fastest?   Nico Moreno: Of course, it's gonna depend on what your offer or product is.   I would say if you need to have a phone call in order to sell your product, that's gonna be different than just having a ‘Buy Now’ button.   But the general strategy that works with Chatbots for MLM is to get people into your Chatbot.   STEP 1: Get people opted into your Chatbot with an enticing, free lead magnet. It’s a similar strategy that you would use for any sales funnel.   STEP 2:Once they opt-in, you can deliver that lead magnet through the Chatbot, just like you would with any email provider.   STEP 3: Quickly follow up with another message that will only send after they've received a lead magnet. You can say, "Hey, I've got this other way that I can help you even more. Are you interested to hear about it?"   And you can have a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ button. That's really cool because if they say ‘Yes’ they're basically giving you permission to tell them more about your product or offer.   If they say ‘No’, then they don't feel like they're getting spammed.   Steve: Yeah. They're choosing that.   Nico Moreno: Yeah, totally. That's why it's so powerful. With email, they're gonna get it whether they want it or not.   WHY SHOULD YOU USE CHATBOTS FOR MLM?   Steve: If you’ve been reading this blog for a while, you know I talk about the three levers you can pull in this space. The things that you actually have control over.   You don't own anything in MLM. You own nothing.   So you have three options:   #1: I can upgrade the person I'm speaking with. The WHO.   #2: I can upgrade HOW I approach them in my script and in my offer to them when they join me.   #3: The third thing I have control over is the actual onboarding process and everything I do to train them.   What's so powerful about what Nico has created is that you get to hit the first two with just a Chatbot.   You're not even doing anything.   You're upgrading the WHO because they want it, instead of begging them.   And you're upgrading HOW you approach that person and setting the stage before you ever try to go recruit somebody or sell them your product.   That's so powerful, and it's automated. It's ridiculous.   Nico Moreno: When you're doing this in person, there's a limit to how many people you can talk to per day without losing your mind.   But the Chatbot can do it for as many leads as you have coming in. The Chatbot can handle it all around the clock.   You never miss an opportunity.   CHATBOT EXPERT NICO MORENO   Steve: Where can people learn more about you and hook up with you?   Let's say someone wants to hire you to do this for them. Where should they reach out?   Nico Moreno: The best place to get in touch with me is Facebook.   Another good place to reach out to me is nicomoreno.org.   Also nicomoreno.org/chatbots. I'm gonna have all my Chatbot related stuff there. This is actually a secret page that’s not gonna be available to the public.   It's only gonna be for special opportunities, like this audience.   Steve: nicomoreno.org/chatbots.   Thanks for taking the time and sharing some of your wisdom here. It's been awesome.   Nico Moreno: I appreciate it. I'm always happy to share with your audience and always happy to work with you.   All you gotta do is just commit five minutes and you'll be golden.   LEARN HOW TO USE CHATBOTS FOR MLM   Steve: Alright, here's the deal…   Every business thrives on cash flow and leads. And without cash flow and leads the business dies, right?   Hear me clearly, MLM is no different.   You own a position in a business, which means you need a system in place for cash flow and leads to come to you in your down line.   This is why I have Chatbots for MLM on Facebook pitching people who are talking to me on the internet.   You may have heard of Chatbots For MLM before. It lets you: Qualify multiple leads at once Soft pitch people that you thought weren't interested Bring in a massive amount of leads of people that have been sitting right under your nose the whole time   Go to chatbotsformlm.com to get your pre-built chatbot template now.   Inside you'll get a selling template. You're also gonna get a scheduler template, you also get a pre-built lead-gen template.   Every minute that goes by is another minute that your chatbot could be softly auto-pitching your everyday conversations on Facebook.   Just go to chatbotsformlm.com to get your pre-built chatbot templates now.

I have a very special guest for you today! Frankly, I'm very shocked that we are able to get someone with such incredible stature in this show. SHE’S AMAZING! She's an incredible individual and we're all very lucky to have her here. I'm not gonna say the name of her MLM. I wanna keep it very company neutral so this remains a PURE marketing knowledge place. She… Has helped open 40 countries for the network marketing company she's a part of. Has a downline of over FOUR AND A HALF MILLION people! Is an INCREDIBLE person and she has a podcast called MLM Game Changer. We're VERY privileged to have her on here today. Teresa, welcome to the show. THE QUEEN OF OFFLINE RECRUITING Teresa Harding: Thank you! I am REALLY excited to be here and I honestly feel really honored because you’ve been a mentor for a lot of the things that I've learned. Thank you for having me! Steve: That's awesome, thanks so much. People may not know you yet or have listened to your podcast yet… How did you get started in this game? Teresa: Oh, my goodness, I HATED network marketing. I thought it was almost EVIL. There were experiences where people tricked you into coming to a meeting at their house… They invite you to dinner, that whole thing, and I couldn't stand it! I was not interested AT ALL. https://youtu.be/aqn-PxmrYGE My sister invited me to a class, and I love my sister. We're very close. I knew I was going to go support her but I told my husband, "Look, would you please come with me? I have to go to this thing because I have to support her." So I went and I was SURPRISED by the product. As you guys all know… Network marketing companies often have pretty amazing products. Steve: Amazing products! Teresa: I didn't know that at the time… Ours is a health product. My niece at the time was two years old… She started having some pretty serious neurological problems that were pretty scary, and someone told my sister, "Oh, you should try this product"... And I thought, "Oh, brother, are you kidding me?" The support and what I saw was actually UNBELIEVABLE… So I started researching and looking into it and ended up WANTING the product but NOT gonna the business. I started using the product and helping people with the product and I started getting a little paycheck but I WASN’T trying to build. BUILDING AN OFFLINE RECRUITING BUSINESS So, I thought, "Fine. I'll do this for three months. I am not talking to my friend and I am not talking to my family." Steve: Right! Teresa: In that, I think we're kindred spirits. I have heard SO MANY of your trainings! That's how I got involved, fell in love with it and now, LOVE… Helping people Network marketing Steve: When did it start becoming a REAL thing for you? You're like, "Man, this is actually something that I wanna go full-time into and get four and a half million people"? Obviously, it didn't happen all at once… But what did that look like? Teresa: And of course, it doesn't happen by yourself. It really takes A LOT of people working hard together and I have a lot of amazing leaders on my team, as you can imagine. Once I decided I'm gonna do this for three months… I'm kind of a go-getter and I always reach my goals. My goals are always crazy high where I constantly have naysayers telling me it can't be done, and I just go ahead and do it anyway… I don't always reach them as soon as I want. I decided to try it for 3 months and then I went after it… It was working and it was UNBELIEVABLE! NETWORK MARKETING IS HELPING PEOPLE I quickly discovered that it really IS about helping people. I built mine offline at first and it's just been amazing. And I absolutely that you don't pressure people. It's not about chasing, hunting people down. We are not the hunter and they are not the target. Steve: Yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest questions I get, and I'm sure you get it all the time, is… “How long have you been at it?” And I feel like the thing that they're asking is, “Is it really worth it for me to go after that?” And they're trying to find some logical reason to release themselves from the pressure of moving forward. With that backdrop, and everyone now knowing how I feel about that… How long have you been at it? Teresa: I've been doing this for 11 years. At first, I was doing it part-time because I was a stay-at-home mom. I'd never really been involved in business before. Of course, I had skills and I had been to college… But I wanted to raise my own kids. So, I did that and this came about right as my kids were getting a little bit older. I would only do it part-time while they were at school or at their sports practices and things like that. NETWORK MARKETING PART TIME For the first several years, it was very part-time… But I'm an overachiever, which is fun for me. I would get A LOT done in the time that I had but then… As it got to a point where I could spend more time on it and I was able to do it full-time, I remember the day thinking, "Okay. Now, let's see what we can do." At that point, I was a pretty high rank (third from the highest rank that you could achieve in the company). I'd achieved A LOT… Steve: That's so awesome. Teresa is 100% the queen of offline building. You have this down to a SCIENCE. You're so good at it, you're known for it. You have your own programs on that as well! Did you learn those things? I'm sure some of it was discovered along the way… Better tactics and methods on recruiting... How do you start getting really good at that? Because MOST don't. Teresa: First of all, you have to know… I am EXTREMELY opinionated about how it should be done. The way that people pressure and try to approach all their friends and family… I did not agree with that AT ALL! We DO have people make their list… But the way they approach is absolutely about WHAT they know that person actually NEEDS. The thing I fell in love with when I found your online stuff was that we had been trying to figure out online for the last four years and we HAD figured it out… But not to the extent that you had. NETWORK MARKETING ONLINE When I found your stuff I freaked out because I was like, "Oh, my goodness." We HAD figured it out, but that was the icing on the cake! We've geeked out over you… Over ClickFunnels… All of that. The way that you teach online, that's exactly how you should be doing it offline. All the things that you do… Attract the people who are interested Don't go after the people who are not interested Not trying to get every single person on your team If you're worrying more about the other person than yourself… You're meeting their needs and solving their problems. If you can solve their problems, you'll continue that journey together. But if you CAN’T, you can still be friends. You don't need to bring up that stuff all the time. The best compliment I ever got was when a neighbor of mine came to me needing something for a health situation. She didn't use our product, but she knew of our product. She needed to find something for her daughter and asked if we had anything. I told her “Yes”, I was HELPING her. She said, "There are a lot of people in our neighborhood who do your business… My husband said, I don't want you talking to anyone else, I want you talking to Teresa because she won't hound us, and she won't bug us." Steve: WOW! Teresa: That's probably the most powerful compliment because that is EXACTLY how you build offline… NETWORK MARKETING ONLINE VS OFFLINE You do the same things that we do ONLINE… There are just some tricks to figuring out how to do it online, in the same way there are some tricks to figuring out how to do it offline… It's just it's faster online, which is so exciting as we've gotten into that! Steve: It's funny because the way I think about the Internet… There are a few very easy plays (like little football plays) that I think about. "I'm gonna run that play, I'm gonna run that play." And I just know it just works because it adds value before you go follow up with asking them to actually join. What's one of your favorite methods for offline growth? Teresa: We actually have some scripts that we give people for different types of situations… So many people say too much, or say it wrong… The nice thing about online is you write it in the funnel, then it's there and you don't mess up. The hard part about offline is you need to LEARN how to say things… Ultimately it’s about: Asking them questions Finding out what it is that they need In the online space, we try to touch those emotions that make them feel like we are talking to them… That's the exact same thing we're doing OFFLINE where we're finding out WHAT their needs are. That's ONE thing that we do… OFFLINE RECRUITING TECHNIQUES The second thing we do is, any time I meet someone… I am not trying to bring up my MLM. I am trying to get to know them, making new friends… It's fun for me! I make new friends! I travel a lot internationally and I make new friends. When we're talking, two things ALWAYS come up… Your business or what you do for work Health If I saw a movie that I wanted to tell you about… I'm not gonna make any money off that movie. But if it was so awesome, I'm going to want to tell you about it. "Steve, oh, my God, have you seen that movie? It's awesome, you have to go and see that movie." I would do it the same way whether or not I'm gonna make money off of that. If it's really something that I feel that way about and I could help people with, then that's how we approach it. Steve: That makes total sense, it is very natural with that approach. That's very cool. One of the reasons why I started doing MLM on the Internet is because I was so afraid to talk face-to-face with people. In that four and a half million you must have someone who's fearful of talking face-to-face? So I was like, "Well, I'm kind of a nerd. I'll go create a system, but that's really nerdy and most don't go do that." For all the people who are like, "Alright, Teresa, how do I go do it? I've got Steven's stuff but I still wanna talk face-to-face." What do you say to those people who are just super scared of talking face-to-face, how do you get over that fear? OFFLINE RECRUITING = FACE-TO-FACE Teresa: There's at least ONE person in four million… Probably every single one has been there… Even when I was super confident and had been presenting in front of tens of thousands of people… I would still get in front of someone on the airplane and all of a sudden something would happen and I would wanna be careful not to make it awkward. Steve: Yeah, just clam up in the air… Teresa: That's ALWAYS a thing… We: Teach people Do role Have a script that is super simple and not awkward, that anybody can use … You could totally use it for your company. It says HOW to offer the sample (or whatever you're gonna do) and it's so powerful. IT WORKS. Our numbers increase significantly when we use this script. It tells you what to say to them if they had a: BAD experience GOOD experience We have spent so many marketing dollars on figuring out HOW soon should you respond to someone. For example, with your email sequence, you know EXACTLY what days you're sending those out. Steve: Boom, BOOM, BOOM! Teresa: It's the EXACT same thing! You give them the sample, and three days is waaay too long. If you do it the next day, they feel like you're hounding them. They're like, "Why won't you leave me alone now?" FOLLOWING UP WITH PEOPLE IN NETWORK MARKETING TWO DAYS is perfect, and you warn them ahead of time. For example, I always tell them I’m going to contact them, tell them why, and tell them how. That sounds like it can be so dramatic, but listen to this, it's super simple… So if I said, "Hey, Steve, you've got this thing, okay? Try it like this and I'll give you a call in a couple of days to see how it's going." Steve: So it's seeded… I don't feel pressure. Teresa: Now when I do call you, you're not going. "Why is she calling me again?" You're going, "She is taking such awesome care of me. I can't believe she's taking the time to do this with me." Just little things like that. I've seen your trainings on sales pages and the wording that you do. It's exactly the same thing, it really is. Steve: That's so cool! Yeah, many people have asked how do they do offline. It's the same... I'm not going to build a funnel, I'm just gonna do it my way. That IS a funnel. It doesn't matter whether it's online or offline. Funnels existed when the first caveman traded a rock for a piece of whatever. Teresa: That's why I was so excited when I found your stuff. You took the real way to do network marketing that is truly helpful, not pressure… And you put it online. You didn't change it and mess up the system. THE BEAUTY OF ONLINE RECRUITING The beauty of online is you can do it faster and reach more people. If you can spend ad dollars, that's even better. I have made more stupid mistakes than anybody network marketing… I am quite sure. So I know my stuff inside and out. I was learning the online stuff and digging even deeper, and going, “How fun to connect the two, how fun to put it together and go, wow, this is honestly moving into the 21st century!” Steve: It's taken FOREVER! We’VE got a lot of up-lines that are AFRAID of it… When did you start reaching out for assistance and help and growth? Were you consuming books and CDs and courses? What kind of training did you consume at the beginning? Teresa: When we first started, I'd never done this before… I didn't have any connections in the industry and I had not had any success myself because I was BRAND NEW… So I went to the owners of our company (who are pretty renowned) they're amazing in the industry. But they're not used to doing what we do... But they were EXTREMELY helpful. I learned as much as I could and I basically went to them and said, "Okay, you tell me who's making the most in network marketing and you tell me what they're doing, and then I will try to mimic that." NETWORK MARKETING BOOKS Then started reading tons of business books, tons of network marketing books… I can't even share my gratitude enough for the people who come before who spent their lifetime learning all these things so that I can learn in a book what it took them years and years to learn. There's always great information… But I'm pretty opinionated about that whole pushy network marketing attitude. And there are some books out there that are very much that way. You will NEVER hear me advocating that. I absolutely don't think it's necessary. Obviously, it's not. I believe that that's ONE of the reasons our team is so massive… Because it doesn't feel that way. I devour books and I read like crazy. I was on Goodreads, and they had this reading challenge last year where they said, "How many books do you wanna read?" We were living in China and I thought, “This is a busy year, so I probably better just say one book a month, even though I know I read a lot.” By the end of the year, I had read 40 books. Steve: What happened to your team growth when you started consuming all that training? Teresa: Oh, my goodness! What happens is, your team grows exponentially! OFFLINE RECRUITING TO ONLINE RECRUITING Not just in relation to how much you're learning, because you know what it's like… The more you grow your business, the more you have to face things about yourself that you didn't necessarily wanna face. Steve: And it sucks. Teresa: It's weird… It's like you hit these lids that you don't realize you're hitting until you up-level your skill in that area… You become a better leader, you learn something more that allows you to lead better, grow bigger, and progress more. Steve: I think of it like those rock tumblers that we used to have growing up… Did you ever have those? You put all those rocks in and it’s super loud, really annoying… Then you pull it out and you're like, “Oh, that was awesome.” The nastier the rock, the more beautiful at the end. Teresa: Smooth and gorgeous and a color that you didn't even know. Steve: So you started building and building and building offline (obviously) and then… And then did you start taking that offline-to-online growth? Teresa: It's never perfect… You always have things to learn but we knew how to do that offline building, no problem. I started trying to do live seminars about six or seven years ago because I thought, “We know how to do this, we are good at this.” If we can get MORE people in the room, we go BIGGER, we can go FASTER. It worked and we were starting to figure it out… I actually partnered with some people who had run massive events for people like Zig Ziglar… But it takes A LOT of capital and you're flying the whole team out to the area, going to Colorado and all of a sudden, it hit me… FIGURING OUT ONLINE NETWORK MARKETING You think I'd have figured this out sooner, but I was like, “Duh, if we're gonna do this, why do it live? Why not do it online?" That's when I started going, "Dude, we figured this out online and then, of course, we can go do live events and people will come," It has been so fun and so expensive until I found you guys. We had gotten the cost per acquisition down pretty low… Lower than anyone I know aside from the people that you train. AND THEN, I found your stuff and it was so exciting. And in fact, we brought a little gift for you. Steve: Oh, yeah? Teresa: Can I share this little surprise? Steve: Absolutely. Teresa: We made this for you. Steve: Oh, yeah? Teresa: I just have to tell you that my office team, my employees have been really excited about this and they've been sharing this all over the office over and over again. We have a segment… I won't share the whole thing here because it's too long. The one that we're going to give you is four minutes long, but this one is just 15 seconds… Steve: I'm so excited! NETWORK MARKETING MAGNET Teresa: That's part of what draws people to you and to what makes you a magnet. We have a four-minute segment that is just super-fun and I'll just tell you… We didn't have time. We're gonna give you this and you can use it for however you see fit. It might just be fun to have as a sound on your phone. I'm gonna turn that into my ringtone for you. Steve: Oh, it sounds good. That's awesome! I was speaking at an event once and there's a Q&A section at the end… This lady stood up and she said, "I know you're thinking about apps. Will you ever make an app for all the sound effects you make?" And I was like, "I think I'm flattered." Teresa: That was awesome! Steve: It's so funny 'cause I never realized I was doing it! Teresa: It's what makes it engaging because you're so fun. You're so YOU and you just draw people in! Steve: That means a lot. I'm very excited about it. Teresa: It's really fun. I hope you like and I hope you take it as a compliment. Steve: It's a huge compliment, totally. I will take that and blast it EVERYWHERE! Thank you SO MUCH for being on the show and thanks for walking through this. OFFLINE RECRUITING ADVICE Could you just give ONE MORE piece of advice for somebody who is just starting out and they're seeing this road and they're like, "Oh, man, she's been doing this for 11 years." Teresa: I would absolutely look to the masters WHO knows what they're doing and do what they do. Steve's trainings are phenomenal, that MLM Hacks… Oh my goodness! The thing I love about your training is people can do this very low level. You DON’T have to be techy and you DON’T have to be a coder. You have trainings that allow you to go slow, but then, you take people up the ladder to go into something that is bigger. The people who wanna go deeper, like me… It allows us to geek out over that stuff and you guide us through the process to make sure that we do it right. NETWORK MARKETING FRONT LINE I've done this for 11 years, and I have people who wanna be on my front line… I say, "Okay. So, if you're serious about this, I gotta know," and we go through the requirements. The requirements are basically... You do it the way that I teach until you hit *THIS* rank Once you're that rank, you do whatever you want because I've seen it, I've done it, I know what works I love the Secret MLM Hacks because you take people through the process without them having to go figure it all out for 10 years by themselves. You've been doing this for a long time, you truly are the guru. You deserve kudos for that, because you are helping people all across the industry and I know that this is starting a wave that is changing the MLM industry. In answer to your question, I would say If you only wanna build online, build online. If you only wanna build offline, build offline. But if you wanna do both, I would recommend that you build the way you want, but make sure you incorporate the best pieces of BOTH of those sides so that you can reach ANYBODY. NETWORK MARKETING GAME CHANGER You're gonna come across people who simply say, "I wanna be on your team." Steve: Yeah, a lot. Teresa: You don't build offline because you build online… But you end up having to handle it offline and you're just good at it. This might sound weird but… One of my tricks is to belittle the goal so that it's not so massive in my mind that I'm like, "There's no way I can go pull that off." If I try to consume and understand and plan for all of it at the same time, there's no way! You get stressed out. At the beginning, when I first started this, there were no podcasts. No one was talking about this angle of it and it's cool to see how 180 degrees that is now. I have bought your packages, I know your stuff and I'll just tell you… It changes the game. Steve: That's awesome, thank you so much. Thanks for being on here! Where can people find you? Besides MLM Game Changers ←- Everyone go look at the podcast. Teresa: The podcast, MLM Game Changers and we also have teresahardingmasterclass.com. We have pre-registration there for a FREE Master Class that we do, teaching people how to combine the online with the offline. I give shout-outs to Steve all the time. There are certain people online that are THE BEST OF THE BEST. Steve is one of them. Steve: Thanks so much! Teresa: Thank you for having me on. Steve: Thanks for being on the show! Everyone go check out and follow Teresa Harding. She's amazing! She's the Queen of the offline bill. TO RECRUIT ONLINE OR TO RECRUIT OFFLINE… To recruit online or to recruit offline… That is the question. By now if you listen to the show at all, you know I focus heavily on methods to recruit online in largely automated ways. But what if you don't know what to do with speaking to somebody face-to-face who's actually interested? What do you do? What do you say? How do you keep the conversation moving? When should you follow-up and how often? Who should you pursue and who should you move on from? Frankly, and totally honest, I'm good at all that online stuff. But if you're like me, you might be a little bit of an introvert in the real world. Whilst sales and marketing online is still sales and marketing offline, the mechanics are a little bit different. I'll be an expert in what I am loudly, but I can't pretend to know all of these offline methods because I don't. Who better to introduce you to, than the Queen of offline recruiting herself, Teresa Harding. Teresa literally has MILLIONS of people in her downline as you listened to this. She's an offline recruiting EXPERT. However, several months ago, she ran into my programs online and said exactly what you heard in my interview with her. "Steve, you did what we've been trying to do for 10 years." If you wanna check out the same programs Teresa Harding has, go to listentoteresa.com and watch the free web class now. Kind of like salt and pepper, Teresa and I are excited to finally collaborate a little to show you your individual strengths. She'll teach you OFFLINE recruiting, I'll teach you ONLINE recruiting. If you're ready to learn more of what Teresa did from my programs just type in, listentoteresa.com.

Alex Charfen is one of the very select few coaches I continually plug into...    I have wanted to get this individual on here for quite some time, and Alex Charfen has been one of the reasons why my stuff is blowing up so much.    I have learned that I need to listen to less people, and I'm very, very picky on those that I choose to dive deeply with…   So for marketing and sales, I've really dove deep with Russell, (obviously) and you all know that.    For systems and business systems, I've dove very deeply with Alex Charfen... he's the other coach that I pay a lot to and listen to as well.    ...and I have other various ones that are very carefully selected... and I don't listen to ANYBODY else!    I'm extremely careful about the content that I consume - so that I can spend most of my time just moving, rather than gathering MORE information…   ... which I don't think many of us need more of.    So anyway, I'm excited for you guys to understand more of why Alex Charfen, for me, has been so key…   So I asked him to come on the show and to teach a little bit more about the systems that all businesses need, regardless of whatever you're in.    A lot of these are the systems that a brand new entrepreneur needs when they finally get that revenue coming in.    ...and then there are systems that he creates for those who have an existing business and are ready to scale.    Alex answers the questions…     How do you know if you should be scaling or not?        What are the five reasons why most companies fail to scale?     If you guys like this interview, please reach out to him, (he did not need to do this) and say “Thank You!”    At the very end, we have a special little thing for you, and so we're excited!    Boom, what's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen, welcome back to Sales Funnel Radio - we're really excited to have you guys here.    I'm with one of my good friends, who's become an amazing friend and definitely a mentor... I would call and consider him a brother as well.    I want to introduce everybody to Alex Charfen.   Before I really bring Alex on, I just want you all to understand, Alex Charfen was one of the guys that helped me understand why I am who I am... and that, it’s okay… and helped me lean into that.    I talk to you a lot about leaning into your obstacles, leaning into those things that have been crappy in your life…    … because they end up becoming your superpower.    You all know my story of going to the first Funnel Hacking Live, Alex Charfen was one of the first speakers, and I took so many notes…    I ran back home, I showed my wife and she goes "That's why you act the way you do?" And I was like "YES, it's because of this guy!”    He had a crazy deep gravelly voice and I loved it. He was the man!" ...and I'm so excited to bring him on the show here:   Guys, please welcome Alex Charfen, “How you doing, man?”   ALEX: Steve, it is so good to be here with you, man. Thank you, and I echo your sentiments completely, and I consider you a brother as well, man.   STEVE: Oh thank you so much, thank you so much.    You know it was like two weeks ago;  me and my wife were chatting about your material and going on through it, and she goes "Oh yeah, I have to remember this is how your brain kind of works."    I was like, "Really naturally, yeah! You should really know that" so we'll go back through your stuff.   You know, I've got that Capitalist Pig shirt that I wear all the time, but I really want one that just says, "Charfen will explain," or something like that, you know what I mean?    That should be the next shirt…   So much of what I do in this world just is NOT explainable without you.   ALEX: Yeah, it's unique, you know, Stephen…    I think when you characterize it that way, so much of what you do is different than what anybody in the world would ever expect... and that's what I've found from the day I met you.    I think I walked up to you and said something like:    "Hey man, I think we should talk. You're a really unique entrepreneur and I don't think you understand just how unique."   STEVE: I remember you said that.   ALEX: Or something like that.   STEVE: Yeah I remember, and I felt like, you know in the Matrix when he's talking to that lady with the spoon bend... I felt like I was talking to her, and I was like:    "What does he see in me? What are you looking at?" You know, and "Please dissect me!"    So anyway, I really am pumped for you to be here and just massive incredible love.    You have to understand, your name; it's NOT just a noun, it’s a verb in my vocabulary.    People are like "How did you do that?” "I just Charfenized it, baby!"    I say ‘Charfenation’ all the time.    I was hanging out with the other ‘Charfenites.’    I'm going over the ‘Charfenation.’    "How did you do that?" “Oh, I ‘Charfenized’ it, baby!”   Anyways, you're very much a verb in my vocabulary, and with my family... so it's really quite an honor to have you on, it really is.   ALEX: Thank you Stephen, it's an honor to be here man, this is awesome.   STEVE: This is really cool. Well hey, I wanna just start right out and just, I wanted to ask…    My audience has heard a lot about you. I've talked about you a lot because there’s so much that ‘veI learned.   Just recently, I was going through some of my old notes, from two years ago, from one of your events, and I was like "Gosh, you're so right, this is so cool!"    It really has created additional leverage for what I'm trying to do.   It works, it's real, and I want everyone to listen to this and listen to what Alex has to say here.   Understand that *this* is how I've been doing what I’m doing.   I learned marketing and a lot of sales from Russell... but how to have a life, systemize, and make my business an asset from Alex Charfen.    So, anyway, could you just tell us how you got into this? 'Cause I know you weren't always…   I mean I call  it entrepreneurial optimization, I mean it's really what you do - it's not just the systems, but like:    I'm wearing glasses now   I'm drinking more water than I ever have in my life    I'm doing all sorts of stuff I never would do, because of you    How did you get into this?   ALEX: - You know Stephen, I think if the question is, "How did I become an entrepreneur?”    I didn't find entrepreneurship, it found me.    This was really the only thing I ever felt comfortable doing in my life.    Ever since I was a little kid, I was always the kid that was different than everybody else, crazy socially awkward, like what you see today…    I don't try to be socially awkward, it's just natural.    I was always different than the other kids   I didn't really get along   I had trouble in school   All the systems in the world told me I was broken.    … and then, when I was eight years old, my family went through kind of a financial downturn; my father lost a company.    He didn't go bankrupt, but he went really close, and to make money for the family we were selling stuff in a swap meet on the weekends.    I remember going to the swap meet for the first time and standing behind a folding card table, and a woman walked up, and I sold her a pen that had an LCD clock in it…    (Like that was big time for 1981 or whatever or '78 or '79, or whatever it was).   Stephen I can remember thinking at that moment, "Holy crap, I'm good at this. This is something I'm NOT terrible at."    … because up until that point, I really hadn't found anything where it was like, "Hey, that was good."  It was always’ "Almost got it, kid. You don't suck as bad as you did yesterday."    I was the kid who consistently got *MOST IMPROVED* all the time, 'cause it's the award you give to ‘the kid who sucked the worst!’   And when that woman walked up, it was like "Hey, this is something I can do over and over again."    And the more that I worked with my Dad, and the more that I experienced business, I loved it.   The world is so random, but when you get into the world of business there are rules.   …. there's an outcome.    People are in it together, and you actually have to work together to accomplish and achieve.   …  if everybody cares about the outcome, it'll happen.    And so *this* is where I feel comfortable.    You know, it's funny, when I was a kid I used to create businesses, create business plans,  write out time cards and all this other stuff, and as an adult, I thought that was like ‘the weirdest thing.’    I would reflect back and think like, "Man, I was such a weird kid."    Now, that's exactly what my daughters do.    My daughter this morning was at the kitchen table for three hours writing out a schematic for a water park she wants to build one day.   STEVE: Wow!   ALEX: And you are who you are, and I think, from the very beginning, this is who I've been.   STEVE: That's amazing, and when did you decide to make a business around this and go actually help other entrepreneurs, like myself, who need these systems?   ALEX: Well, the business that I have today, we started…    So let me give you a little brief history.   So in my twenties, I was a consultant, and you know, a lot of people ask about that.    I did some consulting at a very high level at the Fortune 500 level...    I built a very large business that almost killed me.    And so I can tell the story really good...    I can give you all the highlights and make it sound great:   $250,000,000 company   I've worked with Fuji and TDK and Memorex and Logitech, and all international business.    Or I can tell you the other side of that coin…    I had a $250,000,000 company   I made less than $2,000,000 a year    my margins were razor thin   I had a bleeding ulcer   I was probably over 300 pounds    STEVE: Wow.   ALEX: And so when I got out of that business, I wanted to do something completely different.    So in my early thirties, I got into real estate, and we were taken out by the real estate market in 2007.    Cadey and I introduced our first information product, and that's how we got into this world.   We created a product called the Certified Distressed Property Expert Designation.    In 2007 we were bankrupt, we introduced our product at the end of the year:  In 2008 we did $500,000 in sales   The next year we did $7,000,000   The next year we did $10,000,000   Over the course of the life of that product, we did about $70,000,000    We went from bankruptcy to liquid millionaires in a year.    In 2013, the US Treasury came to our office and did a broadcast with us, where they said that, according to their research…    Our company had pulled forward the foreclosure crisis five to seven years   ….so it was intense.   STEVE: Oh, yeah...   ALEX: Really intense!   And what happened was, right around 2011…    A lot of our clients who were buying our product wanted help growing their business; so I took all of the stuff that I used to use as a consultant; the systems and structure Cadey and I used to run our business, and we started training it.    And so since 2011, we've been training it in classes/ courses.   In 2017, we started the products that we have today. So now we have :   An entry-level coaching program called Billionaire Code Accelerator - for people who are doing over 300k a year   A high-level coaching program called The Billionaire Code Grow and Scale - for people doing over 3,000,000 a year.    STEVE: That's awesome! That's so cool.   ALEX: Yeah it is the most fun I've ever had, Stephen…   It's like every day, I wake up and here's what I get to do:    I get to play in this playground with game-changing entrepreneurs that are starting businesses that are doing things that are just unreal.    ...and our systems, our structures are kind of the backbone for how they're doing things.    So on a daily basis, me and everyone on my team, wake up knowing that we are helping the game-changers change the world, and we recruit people who want to do that…    We recruit for people who are passionate about our mission…   Everyone on my team feels like their life's mission is being fulfilled through being in this business right now.    It's the greatest thing I've ever done.   STEVE: That's incredible, and I can tell everyone else who's listening and watching this now, it's exactly as he says it.    I think I've been to three of your events now, and they have just been life-changing.    I go through and it gives structure to the idea, but then, also, how I behave against the idea. So I can actually go in and breathe; I can live.    I watched my Dad create this awesome company when I was a young boy, but it took him too.   But everyone does that, it's super natural - so you to go in and…    Remove the entrepreneur   Create systems    Create processes and procedures, and people that actually push forward their vision even further.   ... it's incredible.    I know it's not magical, but it feels magical, to me! I'm like "Oh my gosh!"    I've actually had a tab open with your course open for like the last month and I'll just dive into another video, and I'm like "Oh my gosh! Back to the drawing board, that was so good!"    And I go back to it again and again and again... it's just always up, everybody who's listening to me, it's always up.    That's really what's teaching me how to run a company, rather than ‘me’ being the company, and I've loved that.    *Just so powerful*    I wanted to ask you kind of a key question here, and it's a question that I get asked a lot...    People come through my programs, I'll help them make money. They go and make a lot of cash, and it's awesome... but then after that, like what do you do?   What are the first systems that you find that new entrepreneurs with a sizeable amount of cash should actually go create first?    What are those first few moves?   ALEX: You know I think I definitely want to share a couple of systems Stephen, but first, I want to just share a thought process. ..and this is a tough thought process for most entrepreneurs to take on, and it's interesting 'cause I've watched you go through this shift too, right? '   Cause at the beginning, (and I just want everyone to know)...    When I met Stephen Larsen, he was ready to take on the entire world solo!   STEVE: Yeah.   ALEX: Like all alone, right?    And here's the thought process…    After you start making money, the next thing to ask yourself is:    How do I sustain this?    How do I make it real?    How do I make it last a long time?   How do I make it so that I'm not the only driver here?   when you get to the point where the momentum you're creating on your own isn't enough, and believe me, we all get there...    Like I know that if you're watching me, watching Stephen, you're one of those entrepreneurs... and in the back of your mind, you have this crazy voice that has always told you:    You're meant for more   You're gonna do more   You're gonna change the world   You're gonna make a massive impact   ... and if you've always felt that, then there's a shift you have to make in your thinking.    Because here's the issue for people like us; I call it the Entrepreneurs Dilemma.    For people like us…    We need far more help than the average person to reach our full destination, but any request for help or support that we have to make, leaves us feeling vulnerable and exposed.    Stephen, you with me?   STEVE: Yes, yes, yes, yes, 100%!   ALEX: And so here's the shift…   We have to realize that if we're gonna change the world, that is a group activity, and leadership's a contact sport.    So we have to wake up to the fact that when we start to:    Build a team   Create a structure   Pour into the people around us    Invest in those people   Make them important   Build relationships with them   …. we will build the company that we have always wanted.    That's the only way it's ever been done.  The myth of the solopreneur who's changed the world is a myth - it's a joke.   STEVE: So true   ALEX: It's one of the most damaging things out there in the entrepreneurial world today.    Because the fact is…    Show me anyone that looks like they changed the world on their own, and I will show you a massive team behind them.   STEVE: So true!    There's this idea that gets pushed around now, and it's like, “I'm gonna go and be this person that does all this stuff. I'm the gift to the world...”   ...and it's like “Okay….” but you can't do that on your own.    In the last six months, I have begun to experience and feel burn-out.   ALEX: Yeah.   STEVE: I have never in my life experienced that, and it's been hard.  The only way I've been able to create leverage is by listening to what you say and create those teams.   ALEX: Yeah. Well then, Stephen, that's the thing…    Here's the deal I want everybody to understand this:   If you're an entrepreneur, you have a job, and that job is to…    Stay out of burn-out   Lower pressure and noise in your life   Increase the protection and support that you have around you.    Because if you don't work with that equation to constantly lower the noise and increase the support, lower the noise, increase the support…    Here's what ends up happening…     You are in an equation that doesn't work.    … and it's not like anyone can come and argue against me here because this is like gravity.    This is like you know the facts of life, this is like taxes. We're all gonna pay 'em. There's no way to argue against this, you're going to lose.    And so in that situation, as an entrepreneur, you have to be really cautious about doing too much yourself, and about loading yourself up, because here's our instinct…    (You know you have this, I have this, we all have it.)    If there's something to be done, the first thought we have is, “How do I just get it done without telling anyone else,” right? Oh yeah!   STEVE: Yeah   ALEX: And it's like "I'm gonna conquer!"   STEVE: Freedom baby!   ALEX: We forget that humans are tribal animals, man.    We are all terrible at most things. Let's get real…    If you're good at a lot of things then you have a liability because you're not gonna be able to choose what you shouldn't do.    I'm very fortunate, I suck at most everything, and that's like an honest reality.    Anyone on my team will tell you like "Oh man, don't let Alex fill out a form, use the calendar, "send emails. We keep him out of all of our systems."    Seriously my team actually knows when I have a password for a system and they monitor me using it, 'cause I'm so bad at that stuff.    But on that same token, I know what I'm good at.    I'm good at vision    I'm good at where we're gonna go   I'm good at putting the frameworks together    I'm good at assembling a team   … and by doing those things, we can grow a massive organization and have a massive impact.   So for every entrepreneur, the key is to figure out what you're good at and do that to the exception of everything else   ... and it's the hardest thing you'll ever do as an entrepreneur.    Here's why…   The second you start doing that you feel like you're being egotistical. You feel like you're being self-serving.    But here's the fact:    When you drive your business to get easier for you it will grow like crazy.   But driving your business to get easier for you will feel like you're doing the wrong thing.    It happens all the time.   There's a discussion right now on our Facebook group, one of the CEOs in our group made a post, and I'm paraphrasing, but she said something like :   "As I offload and reduce discomfort and get a team around me, I'm feeling less and less significant, am I doing this right?"   And my answer was "Yes! You're absolutely doing this right. That's exactly how it's gonna feel!"    Because we need to attach significance to the total contribution, NOT to your day-to-day activities.   STEVE: Mmmm, that's powerful.    You know it's funny I was It reminds me of …   You know when I first got to ClickFunnels, it was just he and I. There wasn't like a copywriter, a videographer... it was just he and I!    So we did every single role in getting these funnels out, occasionally there was an exception where he'd go "Oh someone's really good at X, Y, and Z,"  but then, by the time I left...   ALEX: - Probably design or something… but everything else was you guys?   STEVE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right! I knew enough Indesign and Photoshop, I was the one doing it most of the time... and doing first copy rounds, and it like, it was nuts!    But by the time I left, it was funny because he had started implementing these types of things.    I remember watching him during these funnel launches just laying on the floor, bored out of his mind.    I've never seen him like that in my life, and he was almost going to a state of depression. He was like "I'm not needed in my own thing now. Ah no-one needs me anymore."    It's a funny thing to realize, we're just the orchestrators. We don't play all the instruments.   ALEX: We shouldn't, we shouldn't.    And so, you know, back to your question about what systems should an entrepreneur start looking at?   Now, I'm gonna talk high level, and I wanna share...    You and I are really close friends, and I wanna share the most critical content we have for entrepreneurs with your group.   STEVE: I appreciate that.   ALEX: This is what we normally share internally once somebody joins our program…    We share the five things that keep companies from scaling.    The reality is, there are really five things that keep companies that should scale, from scaling.    And here's what I mean ‘companies that should scale…’    You know, if you go talk to most consultants, venture capitalists, investment bankers, accountants, lawyers, whatever, they'll give you this laundry list of why companies don't scale:    They didn't have enough money   They didn't have the right people   They didn't do all of these things   The reality is, if you look at most companies that should scale, there are five clear reasons why they don't…    So let me share them with you, but let me give you this caveat…    Here's what I mean by "should scale..."    If you've got a market    If you're capable of selling   If you could do more    If you know you're leaving money on the table   …. you should be scaling.   If those things aren't there for you right now, go resolve that and then start scaling.  Far too many people try and scale before they actually have all the steps in place.    Then you just build infrastructure that does nothing.   So let me tell you what the five things are...    #1: So number one, first and foremost, absolutely most crucial, is…      Most businesses don't have any type of strategic plan.     So as a result, there's no go-forward strategy, and here's what happens in a business when you don't have a go-forward strategy.    If you don't know where you're going, neither does your team   ... neither does anybody around you   And so you will, by virtue of math, become the biggest bottleneck in the company.    Here's why…    If there's no forward plan where all of us can point at and go get it and help you chase it down, every time we want to know what to do we have to ask you, and we have to go to you... and it's a death of a thousand paper cuts.    You're literally in a place where you're:    Telling people what to do   Checking that it got done   Telling them what to do again.    And if you've ever been in that situation as an entrepreneur, you know that somebody only has to ask you twice before you're ready to flip out and lose it.    Am I right Stephen?   STEVE: Yeah, yeah, usually once.   ALEX: Once, right, right, but by the second time you're like "Are you kidding me?"    And so the way we get past that is we create a clear strategic plan, we share it with our entire team…   ... and if the team knows where they're going, here's what happens.    I want you to understand something about the people coming to work for you.  If you're in a small business, you're hiring entrepreneurs.   I know that there's this saying in the market, "You're either an entrepreneur or you work for one."    I call complete and total BS - don't even bring that crap around me.   STEVE: Yeah!   ALEX:    Every person on my team is an incredibly talented, hyper-motivated, world-changing entrepreneur, they just choose to be part of a team.   And so you're gonna hire entrepreneurs, and the way you keep entrepreneurs absolutely and totally focused and excited, is you show them what they're hunting, you give them the kill.    You say:    Here's our plan   This is what we're doing   This is how you win.    And if you hire the right people, they will walk over hot glass to get to that destination for you.   STEVE: Yeah.   ALEX: But if they don't know where it is, you're gonna demotivate them and completely de-leverage them.    So number one, you have to have a strategic plan.    In my experience, less than 1% of businesses do. Also, less than 1% of businesses ever hit $100,000,000. In fact only 3% ever hit 1,000,000.   STEVE: Jesus. ALEX: So when you look at that, it's not 1% of businesses that hit 100,000,000, 0.01% of businesses ever hit 100,000,000,  and the reason is...    Most businesses don't know where they're going.    And Stephen, by you having the tools to build a strategic plan in your business, hasn't it changed how you approach things?   STEVE: Oh gosh, you guys remember when I tell you those stories of I left my job...    I created 200 grand of revenue really quick but there were no systems   I was the…    Support guy    Fulfillment guy   Sales guy.    I did every role, and I voluntarily, very painfully, had to turn down revenue to go build these structures.    And I want you all to know, it was Alex Charfen's stuff that helped me go in and actually set those systems in place... and so, please understand my affinity for this man and what he does.   About halfway through the year, I was only at like 300 - 400 grand, which is pretty good, but that last huge sprint came in because of the things that Alex Charfen and his team were teaching me.    All those planning things that I use, and all the things that I've just lightly mentioned, they've all come from Alex Charfen, and it helped scale me.   ALEX: That's awesome Stephen... Man, that makes me so proud.   This is so cool! Like there's only one Stephen Larsen in the world, and I told you that the first day I met you…    I'm like, "Dude you are completely and totally unique and I think I can help you build the company you really want."   STEVE: Yeah, you said   ALEX: And for us to be sitting here, and for you to say that, I got chills Stephen, that's so awesome. Thank you, man!   STEVE: Oh man, I'm so jazzed about what we do, but it's because of what you teach I'm like "I can do it... "    The first time I ever saw Stephen at an event, I did not leave the event until I'd cornered him and told him what I needed to tell him... because I knew you were gonna be exactly that type of person.    ...and here's why it's so important to me, Stephen.    I could tell the first time I saw you,  that you were gonna have a massive effect on the world.    But here's what I know about entrepreneurs; you're gonna have the biggest effect on the people closest to you - the people who are most proximal, your team.   And when I see an entrepreneur like you Stephen, I'm like:    "Man, if that guy builds a team he's gonna change hundreds of lives internally in his company. They're gonna change millions of lives externally, and I know those hundreds of people will build your legacy."    And when I see somebody like you, I'm like, “Man! That is the path, let me show you how to do this.”    The fact that it's working, is like, “Ah, it makes me so excited every day.”    This is why I get up out of bed every morning and do what I do.     STEVE: Ah, it's so fun man, feeling's mutual. You walked up, it was from that FHAT event that you were at.   ALEX: Ah ha.   STEVE: And you walked up and said, "There's a huge company in you and I don't think you know it, and I'm gonna help you pull it out of you."    I remember when you said that, I was so scared. I was like, "There's no way that this is real! I know who you are, are you kidding me?"    It freaked me out, and I had to own my own vision for a while. It actually took me a while to practice that.    Anyway, so much has gone on in mental clarity and development from what you've taught, not just these systems and things around, it's really cool.   ALEX: - So let's give the second one, Stephen   STEVE: Yeah, sorry, sorry.    ALEX: oh don't apologize, shit I love this part.    So first you have a strategic plan…    #2: Second, the thing that you need to have is      A system to communicate that plan.        Let me tell you something about us as entrepreneurs…    We think we're good communicators, but we're lying to ourselves.    The fact is, we are haphazard and emotional, and we're pumped one second and we're not the next, and we're all over the place…    Here's what happens…    When we have a team that has to deal with a personality like ours, and there's NOT a system for communication, it's random and haphazard and overwhelming... and it comes from all angles, and they're waiting for word from on high. Here's the fact, if you're the entrepreneur in charge, you're the MOST important person in the building all the time.    You're the most important person on the team, in the tribe, in the group, and they're all waiting to see what you say.    And if they're waiting for days and nothing's happened, they start thinking:    Is something wrong?    Did something go bad?    Did we do something wrong?    So you need a system.   As an example:    My team knows every Monday at 4:00, we're all gonna be on a weekly meeting together.  They also know every day at 9:27 a.m. we're gonna be on a daily huddle, and I'll be there.    They know that once a month we're gonna have a meeting where we show our strategic plan.    They know once a month we're gonna have a meeting where they all get the results.    So they all know when they're gonna communicate with me and how.    From the first day you're on our team there's a system that  controls how you hear from me.    Not just me pumping stuff out there haphazardly.    As a result, my team knows they're gonna hear from me, they trust it and here's what happens.    I set the expectations, I meet the expectations, we create trust. I create trust with my team every time I do that.    And here's the fact:   If your team trusts you, you get way more out of them.   If your team trusts you, they will do more for you.    If your team trusts you, you'll get discretionary effort   ... which means when they're driving, when they're showering, when they're doing something else, they're gonna be thinking about your business.  Why?    ...because it gives them momentum.    So if you have a strategic plan and a system to communicate it, you're ahead of 99% of companies out there.   And Stephen, same thing for you with the system, the structure?    Like…    We all fight structure, but once you put it in place, isn't it incredible?   STEVE: Oh, it's amazing! Stuff's getting done right now, that we set in place once. and then, I'll be like "Oh, podcast episode just launched,!Oh, what day is it? Oh, that's sweet! Everyone just put it out, all right, cool!"   ALEX: Right, I remember when I started getting messages like, "Hey, I love the new podcast!" And I'm like "Oh, we put a podcast out? Nice!"       STEVE: I didn't do that, what are you talking about?   ALEX: So you have  #1: a strategic plan, then #2: a system to communicate.    #3: Here's the third one, now this is BIG, really big, and most business owners just, they don't look at this ever and it's the biggest struggle is, or one of the biggest struggles is;      You have to have a system to consistently document the right processes in your business.     And by documentation, I mean having:    A flowchart   A process document   A checklist   Something that shows you how the important things in your business are done over and over again.    For example:    If you walk into a McDonald's, and you look above the fry cooker, there is a process to cook fries above that fry cooker.    Anything that happens in that McDonald's, there's a process for literally every single thing, including:    Unlocking the door   Turning off the alarm   Sweeping the floor   That's why there's a consistent experience at McDonald's; I'm not saying it's a good experience, I'm saying it's consistent.   In most businesses, in most entrepreneurial businesses, there's no process.    In fact, it's even scarier than that...    The process lives either in the owner's head or in an individual's head - so you lose a person, you lose the company.    You lose a person, you lose a big chunk of what you're doing.   STEVE: Hmm.   ALEX: So you have to have a system in a business to consistently evaluate what processes are in the company, and then on a monthly and weekly basis document the right ones.    The way that I would suggest you start, is you look at your customer experience:    What is the customer experience in your company?   What process documentation do you have to back it up to make sure that is completely consistent?    If you do that, you're gonna beat most people out there...   99% of entrepreneurial companies have little to nothing documented in any type of process.   STEVE: They're just shooting in random spots 24/7.   ALEX: Or they're doing stuff like, "Here's how we do our customer on-boarding…”    I trained Suzy   Suzy trained Annie   Annie trained Bob     John does it now   ...and you're like "Oh, cool! Let's go and see what John's doing?"    Well, John's doing nothing close to what Suzy and Bob and everybody else was originally doing, and so you have these degrading processes in your business.    And here's what happens…    When you look at entrepreneurial businesses, they tend to…    Go up in revenue   Come back down in revenue   Go up in revenue   Come back down.    If you're inside those companies, hundreds of times like I have been, here's what I can tell you…    Revenue goes up as the process is working, and then when it breaks, it comes back down.    *PERIOD*    That's why businesses don't continue to go forward - there are processes breaking in the business.    Whether it's marketing, sales, delivery, whatever it is there's a process breaking.    When you document your proceses, you make them bulletproof.    So in our business, we actually use:    Lucidchart Flowcharts   Sheets in Google Sheets    A new product called Process Street  -  a distributed, automated process document system, which is incredible.    So we have all of our processes in Process Street, and we have a distributed team around the world.   We have somebody in Ireland who can do their part of the process, as soon as they hit the last button it transfers to somebody here in the US who can do their part of the process.   STEVE: That's awesome.   ALEX:    Documenting your processes + Putting them in place = Game-changing   STEVE: Holy cow, okay I wrote that down.    I'm taking tons of notes so everyone knows, I hope they are as well…. And I'm not sharing! ;-) Process.st is the company, and we are so happy with it because... Stephen, here's what I want everyone to know,...   Cadey and I have had five businesses get over $10,000,000 a year, and all five of them ran them with paper checklists.   This is the first time we have automated checklists in Process Street.    The last information products business that we had, we literally had three-ring binders that we would carry around the office and check stuff off.    Having a three-ring binder with a process was so much better than having somebody trying to do it from memory.    Now with Process Street, we can distribute that three-ring binder, and I can get reporting on who's doing what.   STEVE: That's amazing.    Yeah, I've actually seen the three-ring binder and I've thought, "Holy crap, that really is how he's doing it.”    You would teach it and then I watched you actually do it.. 'cause you would record your stand up meeting calls in the morning   ALEX: Yeah.   STEVE: And I was, "Oh my gosh, that's so cool! I'm NOT doing that, interesting."    Then I’d go back and take notes and start it.   ALEX: And then implement.    Well, and you know, there's this phrase in the entrepreneurial world. Ah... I kind of get a little triggered, right!   STEVE: Let it out, baby!   ALEX: You know the thing that people say from stage:   "Here's what I want all of you to know. All you have to do is stop working in your business and start working on your business."    And I'm always like:    "Oh, good, thanks. Thanks for solving it all for us dude, that was awesome. You just solved all my problems with that really cliched BS thing that everybody tells entrepreneurs."     When I was in my twenties, my instant thought was like, "How do I get on stage to punch that guy in the face?"    And my then my second thought was like, "What a load of crap!  If I don't work in the business nobody's answering the phones, sucker."    Like, what's going on here? I don't know how to make that change.    And so the way you make that change is…    Working on the business means documenting processes.    By making it:    Clear   Repeatable   Real   And so you have…    A strategic plan that everyone understands   A communication system everyone knows is gonna happen    A system for documenting processes so everyone can repeat what's going on with your clients   #4: The next step,(and this is BIG), is..    A consistent system for identifying, documenting, and then prioritizing the right project in the business.   STEVE: Ah, this changed my life. *HARDCORE*   ALEX: Whoa, Stephen, you know how game-changing this is because, here's the problem in most businesses…    Projects are selected emotionally.    Period, I can't tell you that they're done any other way - they're emotional.    You go to an event and somebody says "I'm doing this thing," and then, the next day, you're doing that thing.    You listen to a podcast or you hear a webinar, and the person says "Hey, I added this thing to my business," and the next day, you're trying to do that thing.    In our business, if I have a really great idea that I want to implement today…    If I'm like, "Man, this is a really high sense of urgency, we should get this implemented."    It'll probably be somewhere around 45 days, and I'm totally okay with that.    That's the timing it should be in my business.    Now if there's an emergency we're gonna fix it that day, but if I'm like, "Hey, I see an opportunity here with something," it's probably a 45-day event…    Why?    I have a team and a structure, and a plan, and we have a system that's moving forward. We're already hitting our numbers, why would I mess with anything?    I actually protect what's going on in the business   I add things gently   I add things carefully   I make sure my team's into it too    I make sure we have consensus    In just in the last 60 days, we've gone from two million recurring to two point three million recurring,   STEVE: That's awesome!   ALEX: So why would I mess with what we're doing?   STEVE: Yeah.   ALEX: Yeah, so when somebody's like "Hey Alex, I got this "great idea for your business." I'm like "Awesome, get in line."    And we'll put it into our system to see if we want to actually do this…   Because the fact is…    If you're getting sold as an entrepreneur on what your next project should be, you're probably in the wrong place.    STEVE: Yeah, that's fascinating. I really agree with that.    It was your planning system for figuring out which projects, I still do it.    Top of every three months and it has guided everything we do.    And while I do follow a few rabbits and I'm practicing bringing it back in, we still largely follow the plan as to what the business needs, and that's ‘grow and scale’ rather than this impulse of like:    "Yeah, oh shiny object, shiny object, "that looks good, that looks good!"    And it's been that discipline, that's the other thing that's always up is my waterfall...   ALEX: Yeah, yeah, always! I mean mine's up right now. I mean I could share it right now.   And the reason is I always have my strategic plan pulled up in front of me, I'm looking at it every single day.    I'm asking myself:   Is the team doing what we need to do here?   How do I support people more?    How do I help them do this more?   Because when you look at our strategic plan, here's what it's made up of.    Our one-year outcomes   Our client-centric mission - which is our Superbowl, our hall of fame, the long term   The 90-day projects we're focusing on right now    What we're doing this month to hit those targets . So that waterfall of long term, to one year, to 90 days, to 30 days, I can see it all on one document and it tells me EXACTLY where I should be supporting the team and what we're getting done.    And so here's what happens…   I went to an event a couple of weeks ago, and I had an idea that was like "Oh man, we have to do this."    Then I come back to the office, I look at the waterfall and I'm like "What do I want to kill in order to do this thing over here?"    And you know what the evaluation was? *NOTHING* I'm not going to take anything off this, that would be crazy.   There's no way I'm gonna go to my team and say, "Hey guys, in addition to all the other stuff you're committed to, here's a hot potato."    I just backed down and I waited till the next time we had a planning meeting and I said, "Hey, there's this thing I think we should do."    We evaluated it   It went into the system   It went into the plan    There is very little knee-jerk reaction in our company because we are going so fast in a forward direction, that for me to challenge that in any way it has to be game-changing at a different level - so it rarely even happens.   STEVE: Yeah, black-ops right? Call them black-ops?   ALEX: Black-ops.   STEVE: No black-ops!   ALEX: No black-ops, baby!  If it's NOT on the plan, you don't do it... or it's black-ops.    And usually, the biggest creators of black-ops are guys like Stephen and I.    So my team has an open license to tell me if I'm doing black-ops.    They will actually call me out in a huddle, in a meeting, they'll be like "Ah, this sounds like black-ops," and then we'll make a note, we'll put it in a parking lot and do it later.    STEVE: Oh, that's so cool, okay.   ALEX: Yeah,  that's one of the most important things you can do when you have a team Stephen…    You train your team to criticize you and then you congratulate them when they do.   STEVE: That's really cool, then they have a license to actually flex their brain instead of feeling like they're in a box.   ALEX: Absolutely. You know I heard a story once about Larry Page, who runs Google,   He was in a meeting and he really strongly stated a point. and one of the team members got emotional about it and started yelling at him.    She was like, "I think you're wrong and this is why you're wrong," and Page was smiling…   Afterward, she asked somebody "Hey why was he smiling?"    ‘Cause she backed him down, and he actually said "You know what, I think this deserves more investigation. Let's do this."    She walked out and she was shaking and all adrenalized up, she had just yelled at the CEO of Google, like, “What the heck's gonna happen to me?”   She turned to somebody next to her, and was like "He was smiling, is that because he's gonna come down hard on me?"    And the person was like, "No, he was smiling because you confronted him, he loves it, he wants it.”    He knows that if people aren't confronting him, he's in a bad place.   So I look at it in my team and I'm like, "Hey, if my team's not challenging me a little bit, then we're all just marching behind a duck."    You know, I don't wanna have ducklings behind me. I want people who are saying:    Hey, this might work   This might not work   We might have a better idea   So you give your team license to criticize and license to call you on stuff.   STEVE:  Gosh, I love that.   #5: So here's the fifth one...    So we have:    Strategic plan   Communication system   Selecting and documenting the right processes   Selecting and achieving the right projects,   ….and then, this is *BIG*   Finding the right people     It's NOT just finding the right people, its…    Evaluating the company   Understanding what the company needs right now    What can you offload that is going to create the most momentum, not just for you, but for the team, for everything that you're doing together?    What is the position that you need to put in place next - so that the company moves forward the fastest?    And unfortunately, just like everything else I've named, planning, projects, process, all of those... people also become emotional.    An entrepreneur wakes up one morning and says, "I'm doing too much, I'm gonna hire an assistant."    Then they have the assistant sit next to them for three weeks, and they wonder why this doesn't work out?    It's because you had the thought to get help, (which by the way I congratulate you on), but there was no process there to actually make it work.    And so here's the process you need…   Evaluate what's going on in the company   Understand what the company needs   Turn it into a job description    Then you use it to recruit   You do tons of interviewing   You drive it until you have three people that you can select from    You hire one of them and then you do at least a 90-day onboarding, high-intensity onboarding.    When I'm onboarding an executive team member, I meet with them every day for the first month, three times a week for the second month, and two times a week for the third month.    People tell me, "Hey man, doesn't that "feel like overkill?"    I'm like:    You don't understand what it means to have an executive team. Your job is to build relationships with those people.    You want to know how you build relationships?    There's one commodity that builds relationships. One!    *TIME* - that's it.    And so when I'm onboarding, when I'm bringing somebody on, (whether it's on my executive team or anywhere in the business), somebody is doing that high-intensity onboarding with them…    Up close and personal every single day for the first 30 days making sure we have no drift.    And so, when you have a system to select the right people, bring them on and then onboard them the right way…    Here's what you avoid, (and Stephen this is like, Ah, this statistic drives me crazy)...    In corporate America, I know because I used to be a consultant there.    In corporate America, they would say things like, "Well we just hired so-and-so in that position so they'll probably be productive in four to six months."   The first time I heard that I was like "Did he just say four to six months? Does he mean four to six days, or does he really mean four to six months?"    Because in my business, even way back then), if I had to wait four months for somebody to be productive I would have been, “They're gone”!   STEVE: Yeah, yeah, they're gone!   ALEX: And so in our business, we actually have this experience right now.    We recently brought on somebody else, a new person to help us in marketing, and with our onboarding process, he was actually achieving products within the first five days of his first week.   STEVE: That's so cool!   ALEX: And that's how it should be.    You want somebody to come in, be effective and start contributing and creating momentum.    Because here's what will happen…    As an entrepreneur, if you're wired anything like I am, (and I know Stephen is), if you have somebody on your team that starts to feel like they're not carrying their own weight, you won't sleep.    You won't sleep, it will rip you apart, Stephen am I right?   STEVE: Yeah! ALEX: It will destroy you…    And so here's the question though…   Are they not carrying their own weight because:   They're lazy? They don't want to?   They aren't the right person?    Or is it because it's not clear what they’re doing?   STEVE: They have no idea what they're doing. They don't have confidence...I didn't help them!    ALEX: Right, 'cause here's the thing.    Your team needs three things in order to ultimately be effective and to be the type of team you want.    And here's what I mean by that…    As an entrepreneur here's what you want, you want a team that just does stuff and asks permission later.    You want a team that achieves and lets you know how things worked out.    That's it!  I just know this is how entrepreneurs work.    You want people who make really good decisions.    You want people who move things forward.    You want people who don't stand around waiting for stuff.    And if you want to have a team that actually moves things forward as an entrepreneur…    You gotta spend the time with them and let 'em know what your ethos is, and let 'em know how you make decisions…   That's how you duplicate decision making.   STEVE: Hm, gosh I love that. Okay, so…   Strategic plan   System to communicate   System to document processes that can be shared inside the whole biz    Documenting projects and the ones you're gonna work on   Finding the right people   ...and I actually personally just went through your onboarding training and it's so awesome!    'Cause it goes through and it's like this, you basically create a runway for 'em, right?   And if they don't land, don't worry you've got parachutes and there are jumpy cords all over the place...   - you're doing everything you can to help 'em win fast and lots of small tiny wins that build that confidence, and I was like:    "That is brilliant. 'Cause that is not the way you're taught anywhere else.”   ALEX: So Stephen, check this out, man.    We recently fell out of the lucky tree on recruiting and we hired this guy named Greg Duby and he is, ah, amazing.    He's like, he's just one of the most exciting guys I've ever worked with because he's so solid and so centered, and just so good at what he does.    Greg is a former nuclear propulsion tech in the Navy, so you know what that is, that's the guy who rides the bomb around in the submarine, okay?   STEVE: Yeah, that's amazing!   ALEX: Yeah, you have to have advanced degrees in Physics, advanced degrees in Math.   He's literally a rocket scientist.    So he worked in the Navy, then he worked at NASA, then he worked for some of the larger consulting firms out there…    I mean, he's done incredible stuff in his career.    He's just one of the most solid people I've ever worked with, and within about two or three weeks into our company, in one of our daily huddles, we said, "Who got caught being awesome?"    It's where we call each other out, and he said:    You know, I just wanna call this company out for being awesome.   “ I've been here for three weeks, I've never had an experience like this getting on-boarded anywhere...    I'm up and running, I'm excited. I feel like I'm really part of the team. I feel like I've worked here forever and I'm three weeks in."    And this is somebody who worked at some of the best consulting firms in the world, NASA and the Navy!    And our little tiny company has impressed him so much because we did onboarding because he knew what he was supposed to do.    And as a result, Greg, I think we're about three months in with him, and dude, there are projects that I thought were gonna take a year or two that are getting done this week.   STEVE: That's so cool!   ALEX: It's crazy.   STEVE: It's just a completely different way to do it. One thing I hated in the military, I love the military, but you know, some things that are rough and that is that there are no clear guidelines on how to win ahead of time.   The way you're instructed is by hitting barriers and then you get punished for it, and you're like:    "Just tell me ahead of time and I wouldn't do it! But all right, let's do more push-ups."    Anyway...   ALEX: Something tells me you did a lot of push-ups, Steve!   STEVE: I just want to say thank you so much for being on here.    I asked for 30 minutes and you just completely over-delivered, and I just really want to say thank you to you.    My audience already knows very well of you.    Where can people go to learn more about you but specifically also get your help inside the business?   ALEX: So the best place to learn more about us is to go to our podcast.    I publish a podcast four days a week, which is essentially a one-on-one conversation with an entrepreneur growing a business.    And the way that I create each one of those episodes is when a question or issue comes up in our coaching groups, I create an episode around it, we distribute it to the group.    But then also we distribute it to anybody who's listening, so you can get the same coaching that I'm giving my high-level clients right on our podcast…    It's called Momentum for the Entrepreneurial Personality Type, and you can check it out at momentumpodcast.com.    And then, if you want to understand more about our products, about our coaching groups you can go to our website charfen.com, but better is to just reach out to me or to one of my team members through Facebook.    The easiest thing, is just reach out to me, and I'll connect you with the right person in our company, and we'll go through a process with you to help you understand if we can help you.    You know Stephen, we're pretty neat, we don't sell everybody. We actually get on the phone with a lot of people who we sell later, but we won't sell you unless it's time.    We know exactly what solutions we provide, and if you have those issues and they link up, then we'll work together... but we go through a personal inventory in order to help you do that.    So if anybody's interested in getting on a call with a member of my team, you can also shortcut the entire process by going to billionairecode.com…    Answer a few questions and you can just set up a call link and you'll be on a call with one of my team members and they'll help you qualify and understand where you are.    And just so you know, we don't do sales calls, they are all consulting calls.    When you get on a call with my team, you won't ever feel like you're being sold, you'll feel like you're being helped.   STEVE: Which is exactly what I have felt when I started doing that as well.    Just so you all know he's very serious about that - that's very real.    I always feel like I'm being helped by anyone on his team.    ...and come to find out later, "Oh that was the sales guy!"    ...You know what I mean?    They dare to go in and actually they want to change the world and they're very serious about it.    So thank you so much, appreciate it.    Check out Billionaire Code.    The Momentum podcast is a goldmine, it is one of those gems on the internet that is actually worth all of your time and attention.    Thanks so much for being on here, Alex, I really appreciate you and love you, and thank you for being on here.   ALEX: Stephen, dude, this has been an honor.    I hope to be able to get invited back again, and as a Sales Funnel Radio listener, this is really cool. I appreciate you, man!   STEVE: Thanks, I appreciate it!    Hey, awesome episode right?    Hey, once I figured out the simple patterns and formulas that make this game work, I had a new problem…    Back when I eventually left my job and launched my personal business, I sold about $200,000 of product in around three months-ish…    And while I thought I was King Kong, a new problem started.    I was the business, there weren't any systems...   I was support   I was fulfillment    I was the one in charge of getting the ads around   I was the sales department    I was the marketing department    And I knew I wouldn't survive it alone…    Better yet, I knew I'd never seen a rich solopreneur.    This game takes a team.    Contrast that to now, and my company does tons of stuff that I don't know how to do...    What changed?    His name is Alex Charfen, check him out at charfenrocks.com.     So I usually don't bring tons of people on Sales Funnel Radio, but you should know that his programs, combined with my marketing skills, are why my business is killing it in revenue today, and NOT killing me personally.    Alex Charfen's programs and training have been life-changing for me and my family... and taught me who I really am and what I'm meant to be.    So when you're ready to build an actual business, an actual asset and NOT just make this another job…    When you're ready to keep the role of entrepreneur but learn the role of CEO, go get started with Alex Charfen at charfenrocks.com. That's C-H-A-R-F-E-N rocks.com.

I have the incredible honor of speaking at Carnegie Hall in September with MARTHA STEWART, MICHAEL E GERBER, DAN KENNEDY, HAL ELROD, and other beasts. I'm beyond humbled by this. Here's the full scoop...   Frankly, I just love being on stage speaking and teaching.   Some of the early stages I got to talk on were Russell's - I did a lot of fulfillment for the original Two Comma Club program.   Back in the day, we did something called the FHAT Event which lasted for 3 awesome, intense days.   We’d go from:   Day #1:  9:00am to 6:00pm   Day #2: 9:00am - 1:00am(ish) - it was a long day.   Day #3 :9:00am - 6:00pm   By the end of the event, everyone was just exhausted.   Russell did the first event because he was testing materials and seeing where we needed to change things…   Then after that, he largely handed it over to me, and he just came in for a few one or two-hour guest speeches.   WHAT I LOVE ABOUT ENTREPRENEUR EVENTS   I remember there was this one particular FHAT event…   On the second day, I took a break to grab some food and went to Russell's office to sit down. Russell was like, "How are you doing?"   I was like, "Wheeew….”  I was just bringing it down... and trying to relax for a second…   ... THAT was a  very aggressive fast-paced stage for me - I loved it.   Russell goes, "How's everyone doing out there?"   We’d always talk about how the audience was responding:   Were they getting it?   Did they understand?   Which principles had tripped them up?   Had we managed to bridge the gap for them?   We’d chat back and forth exploring all the scenarios, but this time, when Russell asked, "So how are you doing?"   I kinda paused for a second…   https://media.giphy.com/media/1qXJDYI8lTG8SVhUZW/giphy.gif   Russell noticed and asked, "What is it?"   He may not remember this, but I said, "Dude, I can see those who are getting it and those who aren't. They're not telling me. I can see it."   And he goes, "You're getting that already, huh?"   I was like, "That's a thing?"   Russell said, "Yeah, yeah, I can stand up at any moment and, I've been doing it so long, I can see those who are with me and who it's clicking for and those who it’s not -  so I'll stop and I'll cater to those people who aren’t getting it."   https://media.giphy.com/media/7YCVWDMbIWTBNuTD9c/giphy.gif   I was like, "Okay, that's what that is. I'm starting to see that.”   MY FAVORITE MOMENT…   My favorite moment on stage, (and this may sound a little cheesy), is the moment when I see in somebody's eyes that they suddenly realize, "Oh my gosh, my capacity is greater than I thought it was and it's actually always been there."   It's funny to watch as people…   Have personal breakthrough moments   Suddenly see the road map and things start to click.   They're like, "Oh, that dream I've been going for all along is actually possible now."   I don't know. I don't know how else to describe it besides that…   But it's a thrill for me because you can see it happen in peoples' eyes as they listen to you.   Those of you guys who educate, teach or get on stage, you know what I'm talking about.   There's that moment where you can look at them, be like, "Bam, right there... I just caused the epiphany." About 6 months ago, during the Two Comma Club Cruise, I’d just finished a big session,  when a guy walked up to me and goes, "You're a really dynamic speaker."   People have told me that before,  and I still don't know what that means... So I said,  “Cool! Thank you,"  but what he said next made my jaw hit the ground…   He looked me straight in the eyes and asked "Do you want to come  speak at Carnegie Hall?"    I was like, "Are you completely serious right now?"   He said, "100%. We're going to see if we can get all these huge names," and I was like, "All right. Cool. Just keep me in the loop."   Six months later,  it's happening - it's in the bag -  it's an event called Living Legends, which is extremely honoring.   So I'm going to share an interview that explains EVERYTHING to you…   BECOMING A CELEBRITY ENTREPRENEUR I have a very special guest…   His name is Clint Arthur.   Clint and I, have frankly only known each other personally for probably six months, but I am blown away and just completely floored with what he does, his skill set, and who he helps.   What he does, when you're in a certain place, is completely magical and I'm very, very honored to have him on here.   So Clint, thank you so much -  welcome to the show.   Clint:       BOOM!   Steve:       In the middle of Carnegie Hall. What?   Clint:       Yeah.   Steve:       It's a proxy BOOM! Oh man.   Clint:       That's a Carnegie Hall ‘BOOM!’ for you - that's what that is.   Steve:       You're warming it up for us - thank you so much.   Clint:       Yeah, baby. Yeah, baby. Well, it's a pleasure to be with you... I met you on the cruise, I think.   Steve:       Yeah.   Clint:       The 2CCX Cruise - that was an amazing experience…   Really, the best part of the whole 2CCX program was the cruise.   I really believe that's because it was a special event.   When you participate in special events, it's not only great for the sales funnel… it's great for sales funnels for a reason...   It really does deepen the experience of the customer/client/ the person you're trying to transform their life... it opens up possibilities for people to have MORE community.   So as a result of that, here we are -  so great to be with you.   Steve:       That's so awesome. We're really honored, honestly.   Now just because some of my audience may not know who you are, which is baffling... but could you tell everybody what is it that you do?   Clint:       I am a celebrity entrepreneur -  which means:   I'm the MOST famous guy that nobody's ever heard of.   I’ve created systems, formulas and scientific methodology for creating celebrity positioning in the eyes of your customers and prospects.   So part of that is,  I have done 107 television appearances.   You might have seen me on FOX Business Channel, CNN, Headline News, or The Today Show with Brooke Shields… When Brooke Shields said, "Clint, you can have all of these plans and want to scale Mount Everest, but how do you keep from falling off the track?”   I said, "You've got to invest in mentors."   I said it then, and I meant it… and I mean it even more now.   Investing in mentors has been part of the reason why I have gotten to where I am.   Part of what I've done to become a celebrity entrepreneur is to become  Dan Kennedy's Info Marketer Of The Year - that's a great honor for me.   It’s something that really opened things up for me in my career and deepened my relationship with Dan Kennedy as my mentor.   So those are some of the things I've done.   I've also written a bunch of best-selling books...   My new book is called Celebrity Entrepreneurship.   Some of my other best sellers include:   What They Teach You At The Wharton Business School - I’m a graduate of the Wharton Business Schools entrepreneurship program.   The Greatest Book Of All Time...   I wrote this other book called The Last Year Of Your Life  - where you live as if you're going to die at the end of the year…   I told one of my friends, I'm going to add in videos and audios, it's going to be the greatest book of all time with those attached as links in the Kindle book, and he goes, "Why don't you just call it The Greatest Book of All Time?"   So I did, and that became my first real big selling book…   I sold 26,000 copies of that book.   Steve:       Wow. That's awesome. That's incredible.   Clint:       And it has contributed to …( I don't even think you know this…) Starting June 8th, I will be the host of a NEW talk radio show on WABC Radio in New York City called The Greatest Show of All Time.   Steve:       Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Just pushing straight on in there. That's incredible.   Now, actually, it was Peng Joon I started talking to about what it is that you do, and everything…   He was talking about just how incredible your stuff is and how amazing it is.   Why is it important to eventually become a celebrity entrepreneur for your audience?   Clint:       Well, I say on the back of my book that entrepreneurs struggle because they think that people are buying their products and services, but really people are buying you.   Who you are is more important than what you actually do.   ...especially if you're selling a product or service that's similar or equivalent to others that are in the marketplace...   The only difference is you.   If you're a financial advisor/  a realtor/ a doctor, or selling any kind of widget, there's a similar widget to what you sell - the main difference is who you are.   HOW TO BE A SUCCESSFUL ENTREPRENEUR…   What I do as a celebrity entrepreneur is help my clients position themselves as celebrities in the eyes of their customers and prospects.. and that's really using marketing on your personal brand.   That's what *this* is all about.   … and that makes all the difference in the world because people are NOT buying your widgets; they're buying you.   Steve:       Absolutely. I just so appreciate you taking that angle on it too.   There are a few places I've spoken at... where it's only been about getting authority for authority's sake, but you're saying let's get it so it pushes the message and the product more…   … because that's what they're gonna be buying anyway.   I love that. I'm very, very thankful for that. It's awesome.   How did you get started doing this?   There are gonna be a lot of questions revolving around ...   This is not something that my audience is gonna be very familiar with.   Clint:       Hey, I started out as an entrepreneur selling butter.   Steve:       Really?   Clint:       Yeah, really. That's really where this all began.   I was selling portion controlled butter in Las Vegas to hotels and casinos.   So if you've ever eaten bread and butter at Bellagio in Las Vegas, thank you for helping to put my daughter through the University of Southern California…   For a long time, pretty much every piece of bread at Bellagio was buttered with Five Star Butter, which is my company.   What happened was a lot of these celebrity chefs starting coming in: Bobby Flay, Gordon Ramsay, Emeril... and I wanted to get the celebrity chefs, so I came up with this idea…   What if I could be a judge on Iron Chef America and make myself a celebrity butter expert, not just the guy selling butter?   I talked the producers of Iron Chef America into making me the judge of Battle Butter... (you can watch that episode on my website, fivestarbutter.com and see me judging Battle Butter).   That was the beginning of my celebrity positioning as an expert.   Now, I tell you what, it changes things when you become a celebrity expert in what you do, it really does.   THIS WILL BLOW YOUR MIND   I heard a statistic that:   The number one top celebrity in the marketplace gets 50% of all the revenues.   The number two celebrity in the marketplace gets the next 25% of the revenues.   Number three, through infinity, split the remaining 25%.   That's why, if you're not the number one top celebrity, you are surviving on crumbs while everybody who you admire is feasting on giant pieces of pie.   For example, Tony Robbins, Date With Destiny…   Date With Destiny alone represents 10% of the entire live event seminar industry in its revenue.   Steve:       Oh my gosh.   Clint:       If you do the math, which I have, you will see that just that one event is 10% of all live seminar tickets.   Steve:       Geeze. I had no idea.   Clint:       Because he's the number one guy ... And here's the funny part…   Go into any bank in America and ask the teller, "Do you know who Tony Robbins is?"   … they're going to say ``No,” because he's NOT a real celebrity - He's a celebrity entrepreneur.   The same thing goes for Grant Cardone, who everybody worships…   I will show you videos where I'm doing seminars with financial advisors and I'd say, "Anybody recognize this guy?"   Not one hand goes up.   Nobody knows who he is because they're NOT his customers or prospects... and yet two months ago, he filled up Marlin Stadium...   And most of the people watching this video know exactly what I'm talking about.   Steve:       OH, YEAH.   Clint:       When you're a celebrity entrepreneur, (which is something that I pioneered, systematized and scientifically analyzed how do you do it), you're a god to your customers and prospects…   ... but the rest of the world doesn't know who you are.   And that's what I help my clients to do.   Steve:       It seems extremely magical sitting on this side of the screen listening to that. That's impressive. That’s so, so amazing.   Now, what should somebody do if they're trying to get started as celebrity entrepreneur?   Clint:       Okay. Well, the important thing to understand is that there's no time that’s too soon.   The sooner you start building your positioning as a celebrity in the eyes of your customers and prospects, the better off you are... because the product you're selling is irrelevant.   A lot of people come to me and say, "I don't have a product yet. I don't have a book yet. I don't have this data or anything yet, " and I just say;   “But you have you. You're already you. And you're always going to be you so you might as well start building your personal brand."   Really, there are five ways to do it.   Television is the most powerful way.   I'm not saying you have to go on Good Morning America first - that's a mistake. Don't go on Good Morning America first, go on little tiny local TV shows first.   Then the second great way to do it is by becoming a speaker.   I wanted to meet you, Steve, because you're such a great speaker…   I don't know if you've always been, but I doubt you've always been…   I’ve personally found that speaking is an acquired skill.   You have to learn how to be a great speaker - so there's no time that's too soon to start learning that, is there?   So go out there and start learning how to speak and start speaking in important places - the second part of my formula is to become a VIP speaker speaking in very important places.   The third part is one of my favorite things, celebrity attachment.   That's taking photos with famous people, and anybody who goes to my website will see I'm in photos with all kinds of famous people from Brooke Shields to Caitlin Jenner  - Ringo Star to Mike Tyson - Hilary and Donald Trump. I don't care.   I'm an equal opportunity celebrity selfie slut.   The more famous they are, the more I like it. That's it.   Part four my formula for celebrity entrepreneurship is to be a best selling author.   I've already dropped some of my best selling book titles on you guys. The fifth part is to be an award winner -  Win Awards!   I told you right in the beginning, I was Dan Kennedy's ‘Info Marketer of The Year,’ and you, as an entrepreneur, need to figure out how you can win awards too.   Steve:       That's amazing...   TV   Speaker   Celebrity Attachment   Best Selling Author   Award Winner   Clint:       Ideally you want to win an Academy Award, but if you don't have an Academy Award, then you've got to win something else.   You won a Two Comma Club X award, you won a Two Comma Club award -  whatever you can get!   The better it is, the better it's going to be…   You put all those steps together and you’ve radically transformed your positioning in the eyes of your customers and prospects.   Ultimately you want to accomplish each of those things.   Steve:       That is insanely valuable. I hope everyone's enjoying that. I can't put it off anymore… Where are you standing... and why are we talking about it right now?   I can't even hold it back…   CARNEGIE HALLClint:       Right now I'm in the lobby at Carnegie Hall in New York City.   Steve:       Oh!   Clint:       Yeah! And the reason why I'm in the lobby of Carnegie Hall in New York City is that I just finished my meeting with the production manager, the stage manager, the person who did all the contracts for my first of its kind entrepreneurial conference at Carnegie Hall.   They've never had an event like this before…   “It's so unique, Clint. We've never had anything like this, Clint. We're so excited. We can't wait to sit in on and see some of the people that are going to be ... You're really going to have Martha Stewart at your conference?"   Yes. I'm really having Martha Stewart at this conference.   "You're really going to have Coco and Ice-T?"   Yes. Ice-T and Coco are really going to be there.   "You're really going to have Scorpion -  the guy who produced five seasons of the TV show Scorpion for CBS? My dad loves Scorpion."   Steve:       That's a good show.   Clint:       That's what the lady said.   I'm like, “Yeah, Scorpion himself. You're going to be able to pick the brain of the smartest man on earth. Imagine what you're going to find in there.”   Albert Einstein previously spoke at Carnegie Hall. His IQ was 160. Scorpion's IQ is 197.   Steve:       Holy Cow!   Clint:       ...and who else is going to be speaking there?   Dan Kennedy will be speaking at this conference.   Michael Gerber, the author of The E-Myth, number one New York Times best-selling book for years and years and years   ….he’s changed so many entrepreneurs' lives.   Michael will be doing multiple days of speaking at this event, including the hot seats on the stage.   Amazing. Who else?   Jerry from Ben and Jerry's ice cream, the founder.   So look at this…   You've got Martha Stewart who turned herself into a household name...   Then you've got a guy who turned cream and sugar into a household product. Right?   Steve:       Yeah.   Clint:       Who else is going to be here?   Oh, Hal Elrod, ‘Miracle Morning’. Are you familiar with that book?   Steve:       Very. Yep. Got that and the journal right here.   Clint:       Right? Self-publishing phenomenon. By the way, he's one of my students.   Steve:       Oh, cool.   Clint:       He couldn't afford to come to my Celebrity Launch Pad TV Publicity Transformation Event.   He registered, and then he calls me the next day and goes, "Clint, I'm really sorry. I talked it over with Ursula and we really just can't afford it."   I'm like, "Wrong. I'm going to make it possible for you to do it. We're going to come up with a payment plan and you are coming on Celebrity Launch Pad."   He booked himself on 13 shows   I have the video of him, and he's like, "Any time I'm being considered for a speaking gig, I send them my TV appearances for them to evaluate me because it separates me so much from everybody else who's trying to get those same speaking gigs."   Anyway, he's one of my students and he will be speaking there.   Who else is going to be speaking there?   Princess Marianne Parker, another one of my students.   She transformed herself from a Bulgarian peasant to the princess of etiquette.   She's going to tell you how etiquette saved her life and made her wealthy.   And who else is going to be speaking there?   This guy named Steve.    Steve:          I heard he had big eyes and he’s probably gonna yell a lot. He's gonna drop a few ‘BOOMS!’ in the Carnegie Hall.   Oh!   Clint:       This event is called The Living Legends of Entrepreneurial Marketing.   This man, Steve, built 500+ funnels for Russell Brunson and ClickFunnels. How freaking legendary is that? Unbelievable.   I'm really excited to have you join us on the main stage for two sessions of dropping booms all over Carnegie Hall.   I'm really excited to share you with my audience because you're such an amazing speaker man.   Dude, you are an amazing speaker. I love you and I'm excited to share you with all of my friends who are going to be coming to this event.   HERE COMES THE SCARCITY & URGENCY   There are only 600 tickets total for this event.   Steve:       Holy smokes.   Clint:      Super special. Super special event. Tickets are available and people should be getting their tickets as soon as they can.   Steve:       That's awesome. Hey, so what are the dates so people know?   Clint:       September 26th/ 27th/ 28th in New York City at Carnegie Hall. Yeah, the one, the only Carnegie Hall. That's right.   Steve:       The actual Carnegie Hall.   Clint:       Yeah, the actual one!   You know who's spoken in here besides Albert Einstein? This is the coolest.   In 1906, Mark Twain gave his last lecture at Carnegie Hall.   I've asked Dan Kennedy to come and give his last lecture.   I said, "Dan, if you were going to die and you knew you were going to die and your kid came to you and said, ‘Dad, what should I do to thrive as an entrepreneur?’ that's what I want you to share with the audience."   That's what Michael Gerber is going to share.   That's what Martha Stewart's going to share, Ice-T, Coco, Scorpion, everybody. You too.   What is the magic sauce to thrive as an entrepreneur?   I'm so excited to hear what everybody has to say.   Steve:       Yeah. I just, I can't even tell you how stoked I am.   When you asked ... I was trying to ... “Oh, yeah, no, I'll be there, Clint. Yeah. Let me check. Yeah, no, I can be there.”   Then I hung up and I just started yelling.   I'm so excited, man.   Thank you so much. Very excited for it.   And you guys, you can go to seestevelive.com and it will take you over to the tickets - so you guys can go get booked up. Only 600 tickets, guys. That is NOT many. Go get one - especially for all those names.   Clint:       There's not 600 left... I've already been selling tickets.   Steve:       Oh, really?   Clint:       A lot of the VIP and Elite Tickets are already taken.   There are different levels…   There's general admission -  if you just want to come and you're scraping it together to make it.   Step up and show up for this thing - it will change your life. Going to events really does change you.   Steve:       Yeah, it does.   Clint:       You told the story of going to your first Russell Brunson's ClickFunnels Live and how that changed your whole freaking life.   Steve:       Yeah, everything.   Clint:       Well, that's what's going to happen here. Where was that ClickFunnels live? Somewhere in Orlando?   Steve:       Yeah. San Diego, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's far.   Clint:       San Diego. Dude...   This event is at Carnegie Hall with Martha Stewart, Dan Kennedy, Michael Gerber, you and Scorpion, the smartest man in the world.   You see, what people don't understand is that the venue changes the event.   You can have the same performers, one of them performing, one time performing here and the next time performing at some arena someplace.   You're going to get a much more intense performance at Carnegie Hall because the venue brings out the power from the performer.   The performers rise up to the venue.   You know who else has spoken in Carnegie Hall? Aside from Albert Einstein and Mark Twain, we had…   Franklin Delano Roosevelt   Elenor Roosevelt   Teddy Roosevelt   Martin Luther King   Ernest Hemingway   Groucho Marx   Andy Kaufman   Jerry Seinfeld   The Beatles   Frank Sinatra   Liza Minnelli   If you have been a living legend, you've performed at this venue.   ...and that's why I selected it. That's why I'm paying the big money to get it.   That's why I'm paying the big money to have all these incredible names come and share their last lectures with my audience to change entrepreneurs' lives and their vision of what's possible in the future.   Steve:       Man. I'm not going to stop press and record. This is so awesome. Holy smokes!   I'm so psyched about it.   So September 26th through 28th. Literally Carnegie Hall! Obviously, New York City. 600 people.   Go to seestevelive.com.  and it’ll take you right over there.   Anyways, Clint, thank you so much for being on here. I really appreciate you being on. I can't even explain what kind of an honor this is.   Clint:       I'm so excited to be doing this. I have a testimony on my website from Peng Joon, because he came and spoke at one of my events at NASDAQ, and he said:   "Clint specializes in creating experiences."   That's really what I do... and that's what I've created here:   The experience of this unique first time ever entrepreneurial conference in this venue is going to be historical, life-changing, and career changing, and you don't want to miss it   I'm looking forward to sharing it with you, all of your friends and your audience; September 26th, 27th, and 28th. Thanks, Steve.   Steve:       Oh, sir, thank you so much. Appreciate it. We will see you there.   BOOM!   SEE STEVE LIVE   So several years ago, I walked by a stage in a basketball stadium.   It was my college campus and I was deeply concerned with what I wanted to do in my life.   For some reason, I looked at the stage and thought, "Huh, one day I wanna be on stage. I wanna be an entrepreneur and I wanna buy and sell companies."    Well, while the last one hasn't happened ... yet, Muahaha... stage and entrepreneurship have.   And as my business has grown and my message has spread, a frequent question I'm asked is, "Steve, what stage will you be on next?"   Now I totally get that this feels, maybe, a little conceited here...   But considering my childhood fear of speaking up, being heard, extreme lack of self-confidence, and getting in front of people, back in my growing up days, I feel satisfied.   I thought I'd tell you where I'll be in the world coming up.   And funny enough, just literally go over to seestevelive.com, and it'll forward you to the next place.   I love stage and it's one of my biggest things to look forward to in my current role in my business.   From little 10 person masterminds all the way to gigantic 5000 person events - from free seats to paid events - events have always been one of the ways I can deliver the MOST value and get the greatest “AHA’s” in the shortest amount of time.   Just come say hi, and go over to seestevelive.com.

I'm very excited today and I have a very special guest.   This is somebody who had been an extremely active participant in the community and, honestly, I get excited every time I see you comment.   I'm very, very pumped to have you on today. Please welcome to the show, Tricia Robino. Very excited to have you.   GUEST FROM THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Tricia: Very excited to be here Steve. Thank you so much for having me.   Steve: This is going to be awesome.   A few weeks ago we were looking through and thinking “Now who would be really fun with a cool story to just bring on the show?” And immediately, Coulton was like, “Oh my gosh, you got to get Tricia on”.   That's exactly when I reached out and I’m so glad you that you could make it. Thanks for jumping on.   Tricia: Yeah, no problem.   Steve: Just so everyone gets to know you a little bit. How did you get started in MLM?   Tricia: Well that's a great story, because I'm in the wellness space just like you.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: Just after my son was born, which was 40 years ago, I got out of shape. So I was trying to get back into shape.   I got really super hooked on the wellness industry. I was an aerobic instructor and then owned a health club.   What it came down to was, I really wanted to make money doing what I loved and so I thought it was going to be the health club.   I really wanted success and I really wanted to feel good and have people think I was doing something really, really cool. Because all my brothers and sisters, they're like CFOs, they're lawyers, they're dentists.   Steve: You have an unofficial bar, right?   Tricia: Exactly. I had this bar and so believe it or not, owning a health club was cool. And I actually was able to make money. At one point I made $10,000 a month.   Steve: Cool.   HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU’RE MAKING IT AS AN ENTREPRENEUR? Tricia: That's kind of how I was making it. But what happened was ... Have you ever heard of this big company called 24 Hour Fitness?   Steve: No.   Tricia: Yeah, right. They opened in San Leandro. I'm in Oakland, CA.   They opened 20 minutes away from me. It exploded and this space was very difficult to make money in. I mean it was super, super hard.   And so, I went bankrupt.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: So like all good entrepreneurs, I filed my bankruptcy.   I had to do it, but it was pretty devastating.   It was embarrassing to be quite honest with you.   My son looked up to me, I was embarrassed. It pretty much devastated my life at that point. I got a divorce. I mean it was just like that whole story of everything just fell apart.   I had $267 in the bank. My dad had to bail me out. I had to write that letter to my sisters to see who could help me.   I mean it was just really, really, rally hard.   Steve: Oh man.   Tricia: But I didn't want to get a job. I quickly realized I loved working for myself and I did not want to get a job.   I would've rather lived underneath the bridge than have to work for somebody else.   But I needed to make money... And what did I know how to do? I knew how to grow a business. I had been growing business for 13 years.   So I worked as a business consultant. Which is another way of saying, “You know I don't have a job, I don't have anything, so I'm just going to help other people make money.”   I remember the day when I picked up this book called “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.”   DO YOU LOVE WORKING FOR YOURSELF?   Steve: It's the gateway drug for every entrepreneur.   Tricia: So I read this book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" in about three trips to the bathroom. It was like I was glued to this.   I realized that I wasn't a gym owner. I wasn't an aerobic instructor, I was this thing called an entrepreneur.   And that's when it really sunk in that I was an entrepreneur and he talked about network marketing.   I'm one of those guys that literally started looking for a network marketing company. I've been in network marketing of 16 years.   I was looking for a network marketing company. I literally recruited my upline to get me into the business, and I was 53.   So side note, I did not quit my job, which is what I always recommend to everybody. Get excited, but don't quit your job yet.   So I didn't quit my job, I kept working, but I was just in love with the whole industry. I jumped in, hook line and sinker, worked part-time with a full-time attitude.   Back then we had this incredible system, which was about lead generation, and I really loved that system because we called it scrubbing the leads.   We would have a lead come in, but we had a system where they would get more and more interest. They had to jump through hoops to get to the next level, so I knew that they weren't just sort of kind of interested.   Steve: This person's actually serious versus kind of dabbling.   Tricia: Because of the system, I was able to move up our marketing plan really fast. Everybody has different levels in their marketing plan. In 4 years, I got to the 1%.   BUILDING A SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY   Steve: Oh wow.   Tricia: Yeah, through a system.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: Which was great. It was fast, but really slow at the beginning.   Steve: Sure, it felt slow I'm sure.   Tricia: It felt like I couldn't get to making even $3,000 a month.   I couldn't get to that point where I really felt like I could quit my job and literally I didn't quit my job at the very beginning because I knew that I wanted to advertise.   I've always believed in advertising, I've been an entrepreneur for a very long time. So I wanted to make sure I had some wiggle room right there.   I was finally able to quit my job. We do a lot of personal development. I hear you, I was at Funnel Hacking Live 2 times, I've been to Offer Mind, I've been to Boise to see you, so I know that you're in to that too.   Jim Rome worked with our company for years and years. So I had a chance to meet him, get to know him, spend some weekends with him.   Personal development was another reason that I moved up the marketing plan. Then things changed, right?   I've been in this industry for 16 years. Here's the thing, if you don't expect it to change, you're not going to do very well.   I change all the time, right? And to be honest, that's what makes it fun for me.   Steve: Yeah, me too.   AN ENTREPRENEUR LOVES CHANGE   Tricia: If you're an entrepreneur and you like change, then just keep your eyes open. So that's what I've always done.   Our model kind of changed to the point where it was more face to face. People were starting to do lots of fit camps and opening up nutrition clubs and things like that. You know I did it, but I didn't love it.   Steve: Yeah, it bothered you a little.   Tricia: I do networking marketing because I like the time freedom, I want to work from home. I travel, that's one of my passions.   You know, I really want to be able to travel and do the things that I love. It's a great model, it really works, I love face to face.   I was hearing people from the stage, all these different network marketing companies and doing so much with social media and I'm like “This really sounds like fun.”   About a year and a half ago, I got my first ClickFunnels account and that's where I heard about you. When we had the round tables and I was trying to squeeze my way into your table.   Steve: That's right as I was standing on the chair screaming?   START WORKING ON YOUR BUSINESS!   Tricia: Yeah. But I still liked you anyway. I was like "He's my kind of guy."   I started to become acquainted with you and then as soon as I got home, I think pretty much after I got home is when you launched Secret MLM Hacks. And I was like, "Well, of course I've got to sign up for that”.   We completed the whole thing. I mean we were just like "Okay, let's do this, and we've got to do this, and he's closing it down." I can't remember what it was but-   I just have notes, upon notes, upon notes. I did it ALL.   Steve: So what's happened in your business as a result of it?   Tricia: As a result of it, I have been able to really focus on completely working online.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: And I've been able to duplicate it too. I published a book and right now, I'm just finishing up. I hacked your funnel.   Steve: Good.   Tricia: So I'm just finishing up. The FREE plus shipping.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: It's actually done. I have to just do the final touches.   Steve: Sure.   Tricia: I hooked up with Anchor and started a podcast.   Steve: Nice.   Tricia: I've done a 5 day workshop with a quiz and there’s a funnel for that.   Steve: Wow.   Tricia: I have almost finished a membership funnel. I'm working on my application funnel. I haven't completed that yet, but I have started on it. I'm doing monthly events.   WORKING ON YOUR SALES FUNNELS   Steve: For your team and such or is it for bringing in new people?   Tricia: It's to bring in new people.   Steve: That's awesome.   Tricia: I'm doing 5 day wellness workshops.   Steve: Oh cool.   Tricia: In fact this one workshop, this one group, I have over 1,100 people in it right  now.   Steve: Wow! Holy cow.   Tricia: Yeah, so that's good. I've been creating a community of brand new people. I have a community of product users. I've got a community of people who are moving up the marketing plan. I have a community of my builders. I’ve really focused and really heard you when you say it's not the WHAT, it's the WHO.   Steve: Yeah.   Tricia: So I've really been working on my WHO.   Steve: That's so cool. You've got more audiences that this has let you bring in. You can train them more. Has it helped you sell more product so far?   Tricia: Yeah, absolutely. But within the framework of how we can sell the product I have, that's going to be part of my free plus shipping for my book.   Steve: Nice. Yeah, okay. I love that. Put something in the front, you sell it all on the back anyway. Totally love that.   Tricia: Exactly. Yeah, so that's worked out really, really good.   ARE YOU NERVOUS ABOUT BECOMING AN ENTREPRENEUR?   Steve: What would you say to somebody then who's getting nervous about trying this?   This whole concept of the internet plus MLM is so foreign to so many people. What would you say to somebody who's nervous about that?   Tricia: About the internet?   Steve: Yeah, just about using it. All the tools we have, so many people are so scared of it.   Tricia: Here's my note. It works for me, and I've been able to validate those numbers and that is one of the things that I'm keeping close track of.   How much money do I spend, how many leads do I get, how many people go through my funnel, what's the end result, how much money am I making? We have people moving like they've never moved before, using social media tools.   Steve: Right, they're on fire.   Tricia: They're on fire and it's the next... I'm not even going to say it's the next new thing, it IS the new thing.   I would do it because you get everybody prepped for it. It's like you have to create the attractive character. People don't know that they're cool, you know? I didn't know I was cool until I put on my green glasses, was just myself, no apologies for anything, just have fun.   Steve: What does your upline think about all of this?   Tricia: I've got real supportive people in my organization. In fact, the person that first mentioned ClickFunnels to me, was my upline.   Steve: Oh that's awesome.   Tricia: That's never been an issue at all.   THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF ENTREPRENEUR   Steve: That's so awesome.   One of the big things that I hear from people when I'm talking to them about this or they're starting to see what it is that I'm proposing and they're like “What, this is so foreign.”   One of the biggest things that I hear from people, and you just kind of touched on it a little bit but they say things like “Steven, I'm nothing like you. I don't want to have to be like you in order to have success in this.”   I'm like “Whoa, that's not at all how this works, you know. You get to be you, LOUDLY"   Tricia: Not only do my clients need different personality types, and they are going to be different personality types, we all enhance each other.   In network marketing we work together and so therefore, if you have members of your team in there with new people, then the new people have everybody's story.   THE MOST VALUABLE PART OF THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   Steve: What would you say has been the most valuable thing so far that you've gotten from the program?   That you've actually been able to use and apply, and you're like, "Wow, that was good."   Tricia: I hear you in my head all the time. But this is something that you said at Funnel Hackers, because I was just in Nashville.   You said at Funnel Hackers and that is, “Just do the next thing.”   Just take the next step, and that is how you have set up the whole training. Especially after I have completed the program, it's like “Okay, just build one funnel. Make it good.”   Right? Then the next step is whatever that is. And when I think about “Oh Steve just says just take the next step,” I don't have to get this whole thing figured out. I just have to go to the next step, I have to get this funnel finished and launched.   I have to do the marketing for it. That's the next step and I think for me, especially as an entrepreneur, I just want to gobble up the whole horse, I think that's the thing that I hear you saying in my head the most.   Steve: Absolutely, well thank you so much and we really appreciate it. Any parting words?   Tricia: I do have one parting word, because we can make up stories about being too old or we can make up stories about not understanding technology and I just want people to understand that's just a story.   It's just a learning curve and there's so many people that are out there to help you, just dive in. Just dive in and have fun. That's the big thing, you know? Make it a fun experience.   JOIN THE SECRET MLM HACKS COMMUNITY   I know it's tough to find people to pitch after your warm market dries up, right?   That moment when you finally run out of family and friends to pitch. I don't see many up lines teaching legitimate lead strategies today.   After years of being a lead funnel builder online I got sick of the garbage strategies most MLMs have been teaching their recruits for decades.   Whether you simply want more leads to pitch or an automated MLM funnel, head over to secretmlmhacks.com and join the next FREE training.   There you're gonna learn the hidden revenue model that only the top MLMers have been using to get paid regardless if you join them.   Learn the 3-step system I use to auto recruit my downline of big producers WITHOUT friends or family even knowing that I'm in MLM.   If you want to do the same for yourself, head over to secretmlmhacks.com.   Again that’s secretmlmhacks.com.  

*increase team volume, secret mlm hacks, teach your downlines, the power of the internet   Listen to a recent Secret MLM Hacks course member, Nick Bradshaw, as he tells us how is team volume nearly 20X'd after using these modern MLM recruiting principles...   INSIDE SECRET MLM HACKS   This is an interview that I've done with one of my good, Nick Bradshaw. He's got his own show but he wouldn't tell me what it is. You should track him down and ask him.   We have about 500 people in the Secret MLM Hacks program. For the next few episodes, I'm actually going to share with you guys some of the interviews I've been doing with people who are in the program and share what's been happening.   Nick  has almost 20X-ed his team volume since using the Secret MLM Hacks methods, which is crazy. I didn't know it was that much! I thought it was just doubling, not 20X!   He's going to walk through and talk about how he's been using this stuff and teaching the same strategies to his downline, which is ultimately what's been my goal in creating this stuff.   It's not so that everybody has to join Steve Larsen. It's so that you can learn how to do this stuff on your own and then teach your downlines and explode stuff.   A lot of MLMs are refusing to be influenced from the top down on the strategies that I'm teaching. I'm just telling you… This is the landscape of the atmosphere that we're in around here.   A lot of big MLMs are not wanting to take on some of the strategies like the internet, which is ridiculous. It's because they don't know it themselves. They don't know how to train or teach on it.   The strategy I've been teaching is actually to go from the bottom up. It's for the little guy.   HOW TO TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES   Secret MLM Hacks has been focused on training from the ground up. I don't care what MLM in you're in. That's why I'm not here pitching you guys all the time. I'll drop every once in a while what I'm in if you guys are interested, but that's not the purpose of it.   The purpose of it is for me to go and influence MLM from the bottom up. To hand tools to people inside of MLMs from the bottom up who can go reteach it to their people and explode past their uplines.   That's been the point and it's been working. We've had a lot more MLMs reaching out, asking things like, "Would you come build funnels for us?" I'm like, "Where were you when I was talking about it earlier?" It's flipped the whole table on its head.   I have a very special guest today. Somebody I have been watching and seeing everything that has been going on... And I've been impressed.   There’s not many people in MLM who use the power of the internet. I've got a very special guest for you today. It's very easy to see who is in MLM online because there aren't that many. When I first saw other people doing it I was like, “Oh my gosh I'm not alone!” I was so excited about it.   I want to introduce you to and welcome Nick Bradshaw.   SECRET MLM HACKS INTERVIEW WITH NICK BRADSHAW   Steve: Hey man. Thank you so much for being on here.   Nick: Dude it's been absolutely my pleasure. It really really is.   Steve: It's gonna be awesome I'm pumped for it. Just so people understand more about what you do, tell me when you first got into MLM?   Nick: I've been in the MLM game myself about two and a half years. Funny enough, my wife is actually the one who started all of this and I jumped in halfway through. It's really skyrocketed and taken off from there.   My wife's been doing this for about five years. And during that time I was actually a car salesman. I was working 60 - 80 hour workweeks, every single week.   When I started in car sales I had one kid and then next thing I know, I had two kids. I blinked three times and next thing you know I'm sitting next to a six and four year old kid. I'm like, “Where did all the time go?”   I was burnt out on it. I had set all these goals and I had reached the goals. I had worked my way up the corporate ladder so I could provide for my family and let my wife be a stay at home wife.   I got to that roadblock that said, “Where do I draw the line of how much time I'm spending at work versus how much time I'm spending at home?”   From there it was like, “Alright, well what do I do? How do I remedy this, how do I fix it?”   Steve: Something's gotta change, right? We've gotta shake it up a bit.   WHAT IS INSIDE SECRET MLM HACKS?   Nick: How do I be a better father to my kids? How do I be the father that I want to be rather than just the provider and someone that my kids don't even know? I was literally leaving for work before they woke up and I was coming home two hours after they'd already been in bed.   That's where my journey started with MLM. My answer to all of that was, “I'm gonna jump on board and help my wife build this business”.   And so that's what I started doing. I've got all these sales skills. I've been doing this hardcore sales stuff for five years now. My wife was relatively well. She was a silver rank in her company which equated to $2,500 a month.   So I said, “Okay, if I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna do all of this, I’m gonna quit cold turkey”.   Steve: You just up and left?   Nick: Yeah, just up and left. I said, “I'm done”.   Here's the crazy part… We moved from Indianapolis to Austin, Texas two months afterwards. We completely restarted. Hit the reset button.     I've got all these sales skills and one of the things that I see really lacking inside of the MLM world was people knowing how to sell. So that was the problem that I said I can fix.   I jumped into our team trainings and I started doing all of these things. I started teaching them menu selling (which is a car world term) but it's just narrowing down the options.   Instead of giving them this huge, 16 page spreadsheet of all of these things that they can buy, you're gonna narrow it down and say, “Okay you have this option, this option or this option.”   HOW TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH SECRET MLM HACKS   I started doing that and in four months, our team volume jumped from $30,000 a month to $80,000 a month.   Steve: Wow, big jump.   Nick: Yeah big jump. Just within a couple of months of just getting people to understand how the sales process actually works and implementing those skills.   But then we really came to a plateau. You can only do so much to the customer base that you already have.   Steve: Right. You need some more people eventually.   Nick: Eventually you need more people. That was the brick wall that I ran into at that point. I was like “Okay, so how do I do this?”   Marketing, duh.   If sales pushes and marketing pulls, I need to pull more people into this business.   But I had no idea how to do it because I'm not a marketer. I've been doing sales my entire life. And honestly, that's when I found Steve Larsen. I started listening to Secret MLM Hacks and I signed up to ClickFunnels.   From there… I failed. Miserably. On my face.   Steve: Sure. We pretty much all do the first few rounds.   Nick: I jumped in and I'm like, “Oh this is gonna be awesome! I'm listening to you but I'm not really hearing you”, you know what I mean?   Steve: I always laugh when people are like, “I've heard this training before”, and I'm like, “No it takes a few rounds, go again.”   Nick: I jumped in and started building these funnels and I'm like, “This is going to be awesome” and then I hit launch...   And I launch that first funnel and nothing. It was just crickets and I'm like, “Alright, back to the drawing board”.   INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH CLICKFUNNELS   I paused my ClickFunnels account because I realized that I didn’t have the skills that I need to be successful doing what I'm doing.   Steve: Right.   Nick: That's when I really jumped into it and I remember the time specifically. I was at a leadership retreat which is an invite only retreat for a company. I had just gotten Expert Secrets and Dot Com Secrets. I bought the black book with the funnel hacker's cookbook and all of that. And I brought it with me.   I'm sitting in our hotel room and I started reading Expert Secrets and I didn't put it down. I went all through the night and the next morning. When it was time to get up and go to the retreat I was still sitting there with my book on page 240 or something like that.   All of these things just started hitting me and it was like the fire was lit. I started really consuming and I even started hacking Secret MLM Hacks.   Steve:  I noticed that's what you were doing. I watch a lot of people do that which is great and I think they should model it.   Nick: When I was hacking Secret MLM Hacks somehow, someway I ended up in the membership site and I hadn't paid for it. I messaged you and I'm like, “Dude, I have no idea how this happened but I'm here.”   Steve: We were in the middle of tweaking some stuff. Yeah, I remember that. It's not that way anymore.   Nick: It's not that way anymore. A whole new revamped course and everything. I got there and I started watching your videos, consuming and I implemented.   For my relaunch basically modeled exactly what you were doing. This was probably seven months ago, eight months ago?   HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME?   Steve: A while ago now, yeah.   Nick: Since then we went from$80,000 a month in volume to averaging about $150,000 a month in volume.   Steve: WHAT? I didn't know it was that big dude… Are you serious?   Nick: Yeah. In the past 12 months, we've done a little over $1.5 Million.   Steve: So you're saying it works?   Nick: I'm saying it works dude. That's probably about the time that you really started noticing me singing your praises. I'm sitting here inside of my own business and I'm watching these things grow and accumulate exponentially.   And I'm trying to teach this stuff to my team and get it through their heads… There's no other way!   Steve: I don't know another way either. I'm not making fun of you who are like, “I love talking to friends and family. I love going to home and hotel meetings”. Good on you. But you can only do that for so long.   It's so much better to have something automated.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely. I start learning more about marketing and it's a constant learning curve obviously.   But you know that? It’s so true that MLM is a personal growth opportunity with an income opportunity attached to it.   Steve: Right.   Nick: That's what it is. It's a great way to start for the traditional person who doesn't know anything about marketing or sales. You can start talking to family members and friends and doing all of that.   But the reason that 99% of us out there are failing is because we don't ever move past that portion of it.   The growth never happens and where we get into real marketing or real sales.   PERSONAL GROWTH WITH SECRET MLM HACKS   Steve: Reaching out to your network only gets you so far. After a while you have to learn how to attract more people, market to them, change beliefs, sell and close.   It's funny when people are like, “I'm just gonna treat this like a hobby.” You're not going anywhere then, sorry.   It's a business not a hobby.   Nick: That’s the way that I see this. We talked about this the other day. The way that I see MLM moving, the way that I see this momentum going... It's having a rebirth, almost.   If you've lived in our world, it's changing the way that it's happening. We're slowly moving out of those 1960's origins and moving to 2020.   You're seeing a lot more sales and marketing professionals get into the game. I'm trying to teach everybody that, I'm trying to show everybody that.   If you're not moving in the direction that things are going, you're going to become extinct.   You're going to have real professionals in this game, doing things, exploding and leaving everybody else in the dust.   Steve: There are social media platforms that were never around until 10 years ago. The distribution channels that exist now are massive and you can tap into them for near nothing.   Most MLMs are mad when you go do that kind of stuff. What is wrong with you? You could be selling so much more if you just use them! It doesn't mean you have to be on Facebook saying “MLM”.   What are you guys are doing right now that's working best for you? I'm just interested in that, because the course is big. Secret MLM Hacks is not a small course.   What is it in there that has been most helpful so far?   TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES WITH SECRET MLM HACKS STRATEGIES     Nick: The thing that I think that's been most helpful… It's just gotta be the confidence to go out and PUBLISH.   Steve: Oh yes.   Nick: The confidence to go out and publish and talk about what you're doing. It's one thing to sit there and learn it for yourself. It's another to go out and actually teach people what you're doing.   Steve: Sure.   Nick: Not only because, in my personal opinion, I think that you learn it better and but you learn how to communicate it better. The more that we've been publishing, the more that we've been putting it out there, the more that it attracts people.   Steve: Sure.   What's being published right now? Is it a podcast right now?   Nick: I've started a small little podcast at the moment.   Steve: What is it called? Feel free to shout it out.   Nick: I don't know if I want to at this point...   Steve: That's okay then, never mind.   Nick: I'm still trying to find my voice. My wife's Instagram account has been blowing up. She's got 42,000 followers right now.   Steve: That's big.   Nick: We do a lot of not direct marketing there. More like back page marketing.   Steve: Sure, that's one of my favorite kinds. Especially in MLM.   Nick: I modeled you and I set up my own little course. I started targeting people who want to make money online. The people who actually want to own a business. Not people who want to do a hobby.   Sending people through that mini-course has yielded great results.   THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND MLM   Steve: That's awesome.   What does your funnel look like right now? I talk so much about funnels, and most of the MLM world is still very new to the funnel term and concept. But what is it that you guys are doing right now?   Nick: The big thing we're doing right now is the little mini course which basically teaches marketing for MLM.   Steve: Sure, that's awesome.   Nick: The big idea behind that is, if you want to recruit more people into MLM and you don't want to talk to your friends and family, then:     You have to target people who actually want to own a business but people who aren't necessarily getting the results that they want out of the current business that they're in.   Setting up this little mini course that teaches people how to market. People who actually want to learn how to market their MLM. Then we invite them to join the downline.   At the end of this course I affiliate for you and I say, “Hey, there's two ways that you can learn this…”   Steve: Which I see by the way, thank you.   Nick: “... You can either go join Steve's Secret MLM Hacks and learn it from the master. Or you can join my downline and I'm gonna teach you exactly what I'm doing to grow my downline to do $1.5 Million per year.”   You can say in your current business and learn from Steve or you can join me and learn from me.   Catching that low hanging fruit, I suppose. Taking advantage of the way that the current MLM system is.   You have so many people that are unsatisfied with the business that they have because they're not learning the things they need to run their business.   TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME   Steve: Which reeks of opportunity for the rest of us who actually know what the heck's up.   Nick: Exactly. That's exactly what it is. It's kind of like a smorgasbord of low hanging fruit.   Steve: It is, yeah.   Nick: As far as extra recruiting goes and getting new people, it's great when people actually want to use the product, they believe in the product, they love the product and all of those things.   That's an amplifier but it's not a requirement.   Steve: So you guys have a course, you're selling, you're driving traffic to the course and then on the back you’re saying, “Hey, if you want to come join, this is what we've got”.   Nick: Exactly.   Steve: That's awesome. I was filming some training for my own team three weeks ago now. And I just wrote RECRUITING.   That is what most MLMs teach you and the method for it is just walk around. Think about the power of what we're doing with this stuff.   We're taking the recruiting model and replacing something in front of it so that we're not actually promoting the MLM.   How long did it take you to create your course?   Nick: I created the course in about seven days.   Steve: RIGHT? It's not crazy, man. You create this course so then you're no longer promoting an MLM. So Facebook is okay with you suddenly.   You drive traffic to that and take the money to dump it right back into ads. It's amazing and it changes the whole model.   It's literally INFO PRODUCT + MLM. Mashing together two different industries.   Are you doing phones sales as well? Closing them on the phone?   TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES THE POWER OF THE INTERNET   Nick: To a degree yes. I will offer that to people and I have an application process (modeled after you).   Nine times out of 10 when someone goes through the application process, I set up my auto-responder. My email service will kickback a set of emails that walk them through the process of setting up their account.   Then I've done an automated overview. A business overview that teaches them about the company.   During this entire time, I never even mention my company's name.   Steve: This is the craziest part! Same thing!   Nick: I've literally modeled what you've done.   Steve: I LOVE IT!   Nick: For months my entire office was covered with print out after print out of exactly what you did.   Once I finally mapped it out in my head, it was more about the concepts at hand.   Another thing that I think a lot of people struggle with inside of the funnel world is that they think it's about pages.   Steve: Right yeah, it's not.   Nick: It about the framework. What is the state of mind that he's putting every single person in?   Once I finally understood the framework behind it, I knew that's why I failed the very first time that I tried ClickFunnels. Because I thought that it was just all about pages.   But once I understood the core framework and moving somebody through the funnel and how that's done, then all of a sudden it made sense.   Steve: Right.   INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH SELF-LIQUIDATING OFFERS   Nick: One of the coolest things that happened out of all of this and how I feed this recruiting machine is by putting self-liquidating offers throughout the course.   The course is dripped out over five days and on each day there's a small self-liquidating offer.   Whatever I talk about that day, I then give them an offer to say, “Hey, if you want to learn this more in depth right now, click this”. Then it goes to a new page with a little sales video for an offer for $7.   Right now it's $1.50 per opt in on the front end and on the back end it's churning out $38.   Steve: You're speaking louder than whole MLMs even know how to!   Nick: Exactly and it pays for itself 17 times over. I'm paying myself to recruit people.   Steve: Last week on Secret MLM Hacks we put $1400 in and we got $20,000 back out (not including how many people got recruited and then they get handed the same recruiting systems). I don't know how it fails.   The biggest issue is the education. Most MLMs don't know how to do this which is understandable. It's a newish thing.   What would you tell to somebody who is on the fence about trying this?   ON THE FENCE ABOUT SECRET MLM HACKS?   Nick: The biggest thing that I would tell people is fail and fail fast. Just do it.   When we over think it, nothing ever gets done. I'm a perfectionist myself which is why I listened to Secret MLM Hacks 18 months ago and I just started doing this six to eight months ago. It wasn't really until the last three months that it really took off.   I’m still constantly tweaking and doing things to it but the fact is that I just did it.   I finally put down the pen, I finally put down the book and I went out there and I did it. Then I hit publish and I wasn't scared to feed the machine up front and put a little bit of money into it.   Nothing is ever gonna get done if I just sit here and read books. The knowledge is great...   Steve: But nothing happens.   Nick: You just gotta do it. Be active in your pursuit of what you want.   Steve: Be clear about the fact that this is not a hobby.   We've treated this like an actual business. We've got phone closers, we're talking to people and training.   I hate when someone joins because they're trying to do you a favor. Then they're wondering why they don't go build.   You recruited the wrong who! We gotta change your who altogether!   Nick: Every bum on the side of the street needs an opportunity.   Steve: Right!   Nick: I live in Austin and if you walk down downtown Austin you're guaranteed to see about 10 every 100 yards.   They might NEED an opportunity, but they don't' want it. You gotta find those people that actually WANT to succeed in whatever it is that you're doing.   DO YOU WANT THE SECRET MLM HACKS OPPORTUNITY?   Steve: Dude I am so thankful that you got on here. Thank you so much for sharing. I did want to ask one last question.   How many people have you been recruiting since you turned it on six months ago?   Nick: I would say we're probably getting five to seven a month.   Steve: That's awesome! On autopilot?   Nick: Yeah, on autopilot.   Steve: And the quality of person is really high which is awesome.   Nick: Five to seven a month is what we're recruiting into our organization and we get paid for a lot of people that say no to us as well.   Steve: Yeah, they bought the thing up front which is the beauty of it.   Nick: And I say five to seven, that's five to seven that we ACCEPT.   Steve: We get three to four applicants a day but I immediately cut out at least half off them because I can just tell…   Nick: Once you get to a certain point, you have to be able to say no. You have to self-select and be able to weed out people because otherwise it just becomes too overwhelming.   Steve: Then you turn into a life coach rather than a “Here’s what we're doing in our company this week” coach.   Nick: Exactly.   Steve: With love, I'll say that as tenderly as I can.   Nick, thank you so much for being on here, I really appreciate it. This was awesome, man. Really means a lot that you jumped on.   HEAD OVER TO SECRET MLM HACKS NOW   I know it's tough to find people to pitch after your warm market dries up, right? That moment when you finally run out of family and friends to pitch. I don't see many up lines teaching legitimate lead strategies today.   After years of being a lead funnel builder online I got sick of the garbage strategies most MLMs have been teaching their recruits for decades. Whether you simply want more leads to pitch or an automated MLM funnel, head over to secretmlmhacks.com and join the next free training.   There you're gonna learn the hidden revenue model that only the top MLMers have been using to get paid regardless if you join them. Learn the 3-step system I use to auto recruit my downline of big producers without friends or family even knowing that I'm in MLM.   If you want to do the same for yourself, head over to secretmlmhacks.com. Again that’s secretmlmhacks.com.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Steve: So do you go by Andrew, or is Andy OK?Andy: Ah, Andy, please.Steve: Can you tell us about the work you do with your website?Andy: Sure. I've made a website for people to study English using movie trailers. (OK) Movie commercials. (OK) On the site, you can see lots of different trailers, over 100, (Wow) and you can do various activities (Right) you can read a summary. You can do a cloze exercise (OK) you can read a script, you can pop, you can click on a vocabulary word and it will show you definitions, example sentences. (OK, OK) yeah, I added little quizzes and stuff. (OK) Yeah, it's pretty fun.Steve: So you have the subtitles on there?Andy: Ah, no subtitles. It's all English. (OK, yeah) English trailers with English voices only.Steve: OK, so do you have the transcripts in English? You have the English subtitles in there?Andy: Yes, yes, yes. The students can watch the trailers while they read.Steve: Right. OK.Andy: So, yes.Steve: And what kind of movies have you been able to put into use?Andy: Oh, gosh, recently we've added "War of the World's".Steve: Oh, the H.G. Wells classic.Andy: Yes, the new Speilberg version.Steve: Oh, OK. OK.Andy: Yes. Yes. Um, the new "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." is going to be up there shortly.Steve: Right. OK.Andy: It looks like a fun trailer.Steve: Excellent. Yeah.Andy: Ah, various genres, too, like computer animation or love stories or action (OK. OK) Yeah something for everybody.Steve: Yeah, and who, which type of people have been accessing the website, and who's getting the most from it?Andy: Ah, people from all over the world are going now. I've had people e-mail about this site from over 25 different countries, so it's very international.Steve: Excellent. Excellent. And how long have you had this website up?Andy: Almost three years now. (Yeah) I guess, yeah about three years.Steve: Wow. OK. It sounds extremely interesting. I'll be very much looking forward to having a look at it myself. How can I access this website?Andy: The URL is www.english-trailers.comSteve: OK, sounds great, Andy, Good luck with it.

Welcome to all of our Becoming Your Best podcast listeners wherever you might be in the world today. This is your host Steve Shallenberger. And we have a tremendously interesting guest today. Our guest is a successful business leader and has influenced many many people for good. Welcome to our show today, Tim Sanders. Tim: Hey great to be with you Steve. Steve: I've been looking forward to this. Tim: Me too. Steve: Well, good. All right. Now, before we get started, I'd like to tell you a little about Tim's background. He spent his early career on the cutting edge of innovation and change. He was an early stage member of Mark Cuban's Broadcast.com, which had the largest opening day IPO in history. After Yahoo acquired the company, Tim was tapped to lead their Value Lab, and by 2001 he rose to a Chief Solutions Officer. And today he's one of the top-rated speakers on the lecture circuit. Tim is also the author of four books including The New York Times best seller "Love is the Killer App," which is an awesome book, "How to Win Business and Influence Friends," I really enjoyed reading that. Tim's book has been featured in Fast Company, USA Today, The New York Times, Boston Globe, and so on. He is a master storyteller who offers his listeners actionable takeaways that produce results right away. So I have been looking forward to having Tim here in our interview today. And to get going, Tim, can you tell our listeners maybe a little about your background, your story? What was it like growing up? And maybe some experiences that helped you see that you could be successful? Tim: Thank you. I grew up in Clovis, New Mexico. It's a farming community just east of the West Texas border. I'm sorry, just west of the...West Texas border. And I was raised by my grandmother. I was a special education student from second to fifth grade, which really, you know, taught me a lot of things. It taught me how to bounce back. That's for sure. Taught me how to fit in when people didn't understand who I was. But most importantly, my childhood taught me that anything is possible if I'm willing to put the preparation work in and seize the opportunity. In my adult life I had a period of time, say 15 years or so, where I was gainfully employed and successful to some degree but just not laser-focused on what mattered. You might say I was in a mediocrity trap. In 1997, I went to work for Mark Cuban about a year after I had gotten out of that trap and had a real paradigm shift about what it was gonna take for me to be successful for my family. When I worked for Mark Cuban you can imagine 1997, the dawn of the internet explosion. It was such a breathtaking opportunity Steve. But I remember those times mostly as being a student of the game. Something I learned from him. And I was a voracious book reader. I was a mentor to anybody I did business with. And by 2001 after he'd sold the company to Yahoo, I became Yahoo's Chief Solutions Officer right after the dot-com crash of 2000. So my team and I went out to rebuild hundreds of millions of dollars of lost business because all of those companies, like eToys, our big advertisers, had gone caput. And through those experiences, I built up a perspective that if we commit ourselves to lifelong learning, and we lead with love in our hearts for other people and expect nothing in return other than that they improve and pay it forward, you can accomplish anything in this world we live in. Steve: Wow, what a rich background and then to be able to take that background and, like, Clovis, New Mexico? You mean you can be successful if you were born in Clovis, New Mexico? Tim: I'll tell you something. Let me tell you something about Clovis, New Mexico. Little town, 30,000 people. I was on the debate team in high school, Steve. And we wanted to be nationally ranked. Now, it was a real kind of a pork chop circuit, right. There was the Las Cruces tournament, the El Paso tournament, the Odessa tournament. We had to get in our cars and drive over two hours to Lubbock, Texas, to go to a decent library to research for our debate. And we had to compete with, you know, Houston's Bellaire and Dallas' St. Marks and all these great folks in New Mexico, and all the big schools from Albuquerque and Santa Fe. But I'll tell you something, my senior year, we won state championship, and we went to the national tournament, and we didn't have nearly the resources of anybody we competed with. But man, I gotta tell you, and I thank my coach for this, we had heart. Steve: Wow! Well, I'll tell you I can attest that people from the salt of the earth communities like this can have a big difference in the world. Tim: Yeah. And I think too Steve, is that there's something in our values raised in that environment that makes us really good connectors. And I also think it makes us hungrier to find some way to get back that edge. And to look for those invisible resources that are out there, like knowledge that can really give us a leg up. And it makes us wanna give back too when we become successful, you know, there's a natural, very deep set generosity. And I gotta tell you, I come from it very honestly. I mean, the patriarch of our family is my great-grandfather the late great Tommy King. And he was one of the founders of Clovis when it organized into a city back around it, you know, after the Great Depression. And he was a successful farmer. And one of the things he did before the Dust Bowl era, right before it, was he engaged with some agricultural technologist and became the first farmer in that part of the country to use a circular farming techniques, which when the Dust Bowl hit, helped his farms survive if not thrive while others withered away. And in our family, one of the most poignant stories about Tommy was how much he gave back to other farmers who were in crisis. The ones that bullheaded, they wouldn't try circular farming knowing that the science said there was something coming in a drought. He was happy to give them microloans. He never collected on them. He would just tell people, "When this happens in the future, you pay it forward." And I believe that his philosophy really represented, you know, small town America. Steve: Oh, that's a great story. And then to actually go from being a special ed student to being successful, that's got to give hope to special ed students anywhere because, you know, they're behind a gun. And so, is there hope? I mean, like, can we make it? Tim: It's tough. I mean, you know, more background here. So my grandmother raised me because my mother abandoned me when I was in four. And it manifest into tremendous depression when I was a little kid. And it exhibited itself in discipline issues. And during those days, Steve, they really didn't have much to do with a kid, you know, when you're seven. So, all they really can do is put you in special education. And that experience was really challenging because it's not just that you're taken out of school, that you're ostracized. And when you go to church you're treated differently because, you know, you go to the other school. And I picked up the nickname Shortbus, and I really didn't shake that nickname till junior high. But I think the thing that I got out of the whole situation is when they put me back into the general population in the sixth grade. I had to deal with bullies for the first time. You know, when you're different you're gonna deal with bullies. For parents, this is a great challenge when a child is singled out into a program like special ed or frankly like gifted for that matter. And I'll tell you, I think my point of view about how I dealt with that traumatic sixth and seventh-grade year had to do with how I felt about love. I'll give you a classic story. So, in the seventh grade, the day that you wear your nice clothes and your nice white shirt for the picture, you know, for the yearbook? Steve: Yup. Tim: I went in and this bully who went to church with us demanded my lunch money and I hesitated. So he punched me right in the nose and I bled all over my shirt. Not gory but I bled on my shirt. It ruined me for the picture that day. When Billy, my grandmother, came to pick me up, I thought she was gonna just, you know, have it out with that boy's mom, or at least give him a good talking to. So when Billy and I are sitting in the vice principal's office and we're alone for a second, she turns to me and she looks at me and she says, "You know the problem here is that you don't love those boys enough." I remember looking at her and I point at my shirt and I said, "What do you mean? He's mean. He's a mean boy." And she said, "In our family, you don't love people because of who they are. You love people because of who we are." And she goes, "That's gonna go a long way with you fitting in at the school." And so she said I should invite him over after church. Because she believed that people were inherently good and when they were mean, or when they were bad, there was something about the story that you don't know. And so he came over after church and stole some of my stuff and still kind of picked on me but he didn't punch me in the nose. And then I guess he felt the duty to invite me over to his house a few weeks later on the other side of the tracks where he lived. And when I visited his home that Sunday afternoon, I realized why he was a bully. His father, a drunk, swore at him coming in through the front door. His older brother whipped him with what, like a horse bridle, in front of me. Later, and I realized that this guy had been going through a lot more than I was. And that he was manifesting it. He was a big guy. He was manifesting it by picking on the only thing that he could get away with picking on, that's a little guy called Shortbus. And once I had that breakthrough, Steve, it really changed the way I thought about people. I truly began to understand that if we give someone our love and we care about them, whether it's on a personal level like this or on a professional level like say someone that I manage, you'd be surprised how many of their problems go away. And how you can convert a bully into a blocker. And I gotta say, that guy and I became good friends. And a little bit more than four years later, he put up posters for me when I successfully ran for senior class president and won. And I realized that for the rest of my life, I'm gonna go out into the market and love people because of who I am, and it's very easy to find things about them that are incredibly easy to love. And that I'm assuming when people don't give back, when they don't do the right thing, when they're mean spirited. I'm assuming that there's something about their story or struggle that I have no knowledge of. And it's made me a much deeper listener and a much more curious person in a good way. Steve: Well, that's a fantastic experience and thank you for sharing it. How grateful are we for the people in our backgrounds that help us grow and develop and overcome maybe some of the deficiencies that we might have that we may or even may not be aware of, that help us start becoming what we're capable of becoming. So that's really an inspirational story. And then love is so powerful and we may talk about it more after our interview but after...well, I was going through my college career I sold books back East. And one of the great books that I read was "The Greatest Salesman in the World", "About the Scrolls," and "I Will Greet This Day With Love In My Heart," and "How Will I Greet Those That Treat Me Poorly Love." And, oh, my goodness, you just fill this tremendous power that comes from it. So I'm so glad you shared that. Tim: Well, thank you. And I will tell you, there's real science or at least there is real psychological research behind this. And if you think about it, this is a manifestation of Maslow's hierarchy, right? Abraham Maslow studied something he called B-love, that is being love. That is a detached form of caring about another person, like I care about another person whether or not you care about me. I care about that person solely because I wanna help that person grow. I don't care about that person because I need a new friend. D-love, Maslow brought about this, a deficiency based love, says, "I need to be loved." So everything I do from being friendly to making, you know, advances, whatever you do to try to go out and help people, you're doing it to solve one of your problems. So, next we'll talk about the idea that when we feel fulfilled in terms of how much we think we're cared about, and that the way we think about love and other people, again, whether it's personal or professional, when we do that, we are making the leap to becoming like self-actualized, if you will. And that it's the most powerful way to think about loving other people because there's no anxiety in those relationships because you're not expecting anything in return. And that's what makes them so beautiful. And I found in my business life, that as a leader, as a manager, as a colleague, this works even more. Because, you know, we need people to encourage us at work. We need people to care about us as customers. And I believe too many people are just traders, transactionalists, and don't bring that Maslovian, you know, B-love to work every day. Steve: Okay. All right. Well, that's a powerful point of view and force in our work lives. Now talking about how to be successful in what we do in business, in our work, and in life generally, it does take work and effort and doing certain things that make a difference. So you shared earlier, that as we visited, that you had made a discovery in your mid-30s that led to ten promotions and helped you achieve a strong financial position and financial security. Can you talk a little about that? What was that? Tim: So this is like 1996, 1997. I had been coming back into my studentship, and I had gone from just need to know in terms of learning to being a voracious reader of books. And not just on stuff that mattered to my current job but anything that was adjacent to it. Anything that I thought was interesting to know in the future. I was at a point Steve, where I would read a book a week. I would burn through these books. I'm not talking novels either I'm talking about complex books in some situations. And what happened was I began to talk about different things with clients. So when I go to work for Cuban, I had this mentality kind of fed by Leo Buscaglia as love on one hand and Steven Covey on the other. I had this mentality that I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna promote other people's success during a time of great change. Because you know the internet was disrupting everything. So I worked a lot with the retailers. So I would go out and work with Neiman Marcus or Victoria's Secret or whomever. And I took it upon myself to learn everything I could about their business future and their business challenges, and then share that with them. And that's where I had the big aha. That if my business practice was to aggregate my intangibles, my knowledge, my network of relationships, my ability to care about people. If I build those up so I can give them away, and systematically help other people make the leap without expecting anything in return, that faith would repay me with endless referrals, a powerful brand, and a magnetic value proposition inside my company. Because I make decisions with Mark, I start to adopt the style. I was a sales person of service out in the community. We accomplished a lot of great things. He sells the company two years later to Yahoo if you remember back in those days. When I transfer out to the West Coast at Yahoo, I've really refined the system of building relationships by sharing my knowledge, and my network, and my compassion in every interaction. And it was like the doors swung wide open. Because now it's 2000, now it's right after the dot-com crash. This idea about helping people finds success during times of great change and expecting nothing in return. Boy, it worked crazy good in Silicon Valley and that's when I begin to train the young Yahoos on this philosophy and this set of values. And that's where I begin to write down the steps I was taking to really document you know how I read books and how I chose books, and why I read books instead of articles, and what I talked about when I was networking. And that's where "Love is The Killer App" came from a few years later. And since then, you know 15 years, I've been traveling around the world meeting people, comparing notes and really building upon that philosophy. Steve: Oh, that's great. And as we've talked about with our listeners the twelve principles of highly successful leaders, these are the things that are present across the board for high achievers. Also they were able to sustain, really, success over a long period of time, both personally and professionally. And one of those was applying the power of knowledge. In other words, gaining knowledge in the first place, and one of the primary ways is being a reader. And so this is a great reminder to every one of us listening here today of the power of reading good books on a regular basis because they're just totally stimulating, aren't they? They just fire... Tim: They are. Steve: ...your mind. Tim: And what I like about books is that books require you to take a deep dive into usually a narrow subject. And you don't just learn a couple of data points and one story, you learn a construct. It's got a thesis, and it's got supporting anecdotes, and it usually has research and it's really meaty. And you can deeply understand the topic so you can give it away, right? So the twist here Steve, is read good books but have a mix. And what I say about this is every third book you read, read for someone else's benefit. I call it prescriptive reading. Think about what... Steve: What's an example of that? Tim: Yeah. Think about information challenges that the people have and go study on their behalf because talk about expanding your resume. Steve: Right. It gives you a whole different perspective to maybe a different discipline. Tim: Absolutely. That's made a big difference for me. And that was another part of my turnaround in the late 1990s that really shifted me away from the idea that, you know, I read books to help myself. No, I read books to help the world, and sometimes it helped me too. And that philosophy will keep you from being too laser-focused on what's in front of you and not focused enough on what's coming in the future. Steve: Okay, great. That's a powerful influence on our success. And you told this wonderful experience that you had personally, this story about the bully and your grandmother saying, "Listen, we need to love him." Tim: That's right. Steve: See things from a different perspective. So you must have learned, Tim, somewhere along the line that love can be applied across the board, in business and as an entrepreneur. What have you found? Have you been able to make the jump of using that in your personal life to a professional life, and what's the experience? Tim: Yeah. I've made it my professional strategy, you know, for the last 20 years or so. I mean, when I say love in a professional sense, Steve, I mean, that I have a set of emotions about you. I care and I am now committed to promote your success by sharing my intangibles with you, my knowledge, my network, my compassion. I want you to think about, for those of you listening, I want you to think about the mentor in your life who's made the most difference to you. There's maybe one. There's maybe two. Maybe some of you might have three, but there's maybe one, right? And I want you to really think about how that person felt about you. And I want you to think about how open that person was to loving someone like you, not as a family but just as a person maybe at work or just a person maybe they did business with. I'm talking about unleashing the capacity to do this every day. I developed strong emotional aspect for almost every single person I do business with, and I don't make them earn it, Steve. It happens quick. Maybe I start out by liking him and I look for things that other people don't look for. I wanna hear their story so I can admire their values and understand their point of view. I find things that are familiar about them. I experience their passion so I can really understand what makes them a unique person. I think our capacity to care about people that work quickly and then maintain that over time. I think that is oxygen for leadership. Steve: Absolutely. That's so powerful. I mentioned the research that we've done for 40 years and these principles that are present, you're doing them? Tim: Well, you know, we're thinking alike buddy. Steve: We are thinking alike. I mean, one of those was living the golden rule, really exceptional leaders. I mean, you can have leaders that are good in different contexts but when you put these together, and exceptional leaders also one that really cares about people. And this is manifest in how they treat others, how they learn about others so that they can bring the best out within others. And this is what starts creating excellence, so great going on this. Tim: Thank you. Thank you so much, man. Steve: And by the way, Tim's book "Love is The Killer App." He talks about these three things, knowledge, networking, and compassion. Would you mind touching on the compassion part a little bit? And I'd like to go back to the networking because you said one thing that is important, and that is how a mentor maybe ought to perceive others with this love, learning what their story is? How do you bring out the best? And you'll find mentors that have done this the same way for you. So, how can you be a good mentor? That's one question. And then we'll hit this other one before we're done. Tim: Absolutely. So, the best way to be a mentor is to remember that the mentor is usually a benefactor, a teacher of sorts. And their job is to give the hero a gift that will enable the hero to make it to the next stage of her journey. When you think about Homer's Odyssey, with the character mentor, when you think about the archetype of mentorship stories in very modern culture, like, say, Star Wars, with, you know, Yoda, or with Karate Kid in Miyagi, that's what it's all about. It's about finding that person that has heroic qualities. That's going somewhere a little too fast. You've got a gift for them, maybe it's your personal experience. You've been where they've been. You have knowledge that they need and you give it to them. You expect nothing in return but that they apply that knowledge and learn and improve. All the mentors, they gain enthusiasm from the student learning. And when they need to, they go beyond just sharing information and perhaps make vital connections to create alliances, to help that hero deal with upcoming adversity. As a mentor I just want you to think a little bit like Yoda. And I want you to not really think so much like a person who's like a fire hose of information, a person who's gonna "Take somebody under their wing." I think you need to think about your role very transitionally. But most importantly, you need to expect nothing in return other than that they hero seizes the opportunity, right? I think that is what changes the game. And by the way, you know, I know you talk a lot about how to be successful over a long period of time. My philosophy that we give without expectation, this is not lip service, Steve. I literally expect them to pay it forward but I don't expect them to pay it back. And I'm telling you that is liberating, because when I meet leaders who were generous for years and years and years and then they "Burned out." This is why they got burned out. Because just enough people didn't pay them back or give them credit or whatever their reciprocity was supposed to be and they were disappointed. And I call it ego economics. And it sets in on a lot of people in their career. Super generous in their 30s, a little bit jaded in their 40s, super protected in their 50s. I'm 55 years old, I've never been more generous because I'm not disappointed in people. And I think that's what comes with being detached about what you get back. Steve: Oh, great. You know that's great. I think even the savior of mankind, Jesus Christ, if you...regardless of what you believe, as it was described when he healed the lepers, and he had one return and thanked him. Nine did not. And if your expectation is that people are gonna thank you, you're probably gonna be somewhat disappointed. Tim: Absolutely. You will. Steve: If that's your expectation. Tim: And it's interesting. So, you know, I love that story and I appreciate that example. I think that, for us, the secret to a long-term career is a very flexible perspective. And I think that if we're willing to go against the grain that there's a quid pro quo. I think we really open up our opportunities in life. You just continue to be great until the day we die. Steve: Wonderful. What a refreshing wonderful perspective. I had a friend, Tim, that I had lunch with last week. He is a facilitator for a very successful training company. He has been, really most of his career 30 years, he's gone all over the world. And one of the things he talked about was precisely this, is that his observation is one of the keys for companies to get ahead today to be able to be a best in class, be the best in their industry, is to have active healthy coaching program within the company where people are able to coach each other. And I think it's really these type of qualities you're talking that would help that be successful. Tim: Absolutely. And for leaders, whether it's a small business or an enterprise, you can create a culture of coaching. So even if there's not a funded program per se, it can be the habit inside that organization. So Tom Ward was brought into Barton protective in Atlanta to turn that company around several years ago and he created that culture. He had something called Vision Quest. These values cards everybody carried with them. It was a huge part of the cadence that he had in that company. And the third value was love. "Do you care about me as a person?" He hired based on it. He rewarded based on it. He promoted or did not promote based on it. It made a big deal to how people behaved, because culture at work, culture at work is a conversation that's led by leaders about how we do things here. And that's like software that runs a company, right? So, when you as a leader go to work and say, "We coach other people because of who we are as a company," then the habit sets in. And it's very attractive, Steve, to today's millennial, to have a reputation for a company where we bring each other up as opposed to where we internally compete. So I just want everybody listening to know this is within your power. And you don't need a big checkbook, but you do need to have consistent cadence because you need to manage that conversation about how we do things here successfully. Steve: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am, like, speechless that we are out of time. I can't believe it. Tim: It goes that quick, man. It goes that quick. Steve: It has been fast today. Now, any...what's one last bit of advice, or any tips you would like to give our listeners before we wrap it up today. It's been fun Tim. Tim: Hey, it's been fun buddy. So I'll tell you a place where you can get some stuff about me, but before that, I'll just give you one of my...it's kind of my new little piece of advice I like to give people. And I can't say that I came up with it but I can tell you I'm championing this idea. If you want to be a happier person in, life in traffic and in work, the next time somebody irritates you, does something that is seemingly rude to you, I want you to assume that that person is operating under the best intentions. I want you to assume that you don't know the whole story. Because more often than not, Steve, people are operating under the best intentions. It's just that their needs clash with our needs. And we spend a lot of our time judging those people instead of inquiring about the rest of the story. So like I said, next time somebody cuts you off in traffic, you might wanna consider that she's trying to get somebody to the hospital before you honk your horn and shake your fist. And this goes double for you as business owners and leaders. Steve: Oh, that's great advice. I hope I can get this right. This comes from an article I read yesterday and it really left a deep impression on me. It was given by the leader of a worldwide organization, a humanitarian service organization. And the fellow talked about 50 years ago, he had a mentor. And the mentor said, "Every time you meet somebody, if you'll say to yourself this person is dealing with a serious challenge," he said, "You're gonna be right 50% of the time." Tim: And guess what? Before, when you just reacted and judged that person, you were wrong 50% of the time. Steve: Exactly. Well, he said, "Man I thought my teacher, my professor was a pessimist," he said, "But I have come to learn what wise advice that was." Because indeed as we look around what's going on in the world, it is often true. And I love your comment that half the time we're wrong. So let's give everybody a lot of slack here, right? Tim: On that, you know, again, yeah, let's put our self in another person's shoes. And let's find out more. You can learn and grow so much more. You can expand your thrive so much more. And, again, you can just avoid those regrettable mistakes we all make. Steve: Yup. Well, these are some great things that we can do to make a difference, to lift others, to build others. Tim has done a great job in sharing these. What a tremendous background. And, Tim, if you'll share how our listeners can learn more about what you're doing, and which is tremendous? We'd love to hear about it. Tim: Absolutely. We've set up a special page for your listeners, Steve. It is timsanders.com/byb. That's timsanders.com/byb. I'll have a huge download excerpt of Love is The Killer App for you to read. I'll also have a way you can connect with me on LinkedIn, and find other resources like videos and other such content on my site. Steve: Well, that's terrific. Thank you Tim Sanders for being part of this show today. This has been enlightening. It's been wonderful. Tim: Oh, absolutely. It's been a pleasure Steve. I really enjoyed it. Steve: Well, you bet. We wish you all the best as you're making a difference in the world as well Tim. Tim: Thank you. Steve: And to all of our listeners, never forget, you are creating a ripple that can never be counted for good as we do the right things, good things. And they do make a difference. They lift our own lives and they lift others. And they help us be more successful, happier and have fuller lives. I'm Steve Shellenberger with Becoming Your Best Global Leadership wishing you a great day. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

STEVE: Welcome, everyone. Today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited. I actually have only met her only two weeks ago. It was pretty cool actually. I felt an immediate connection. Anyway, this is Jennifer Goodwin. How you doing? JEN: Good. How are you? STEVE: Fantastic. I'm doing really, really well. I was scrolling through Facebook, it was about two weeks ago, and ... I don't know if I've told you this yet, but I was scrolling through Facebook, and I saw an ad that you had out. It was ad for vets. I can't remember exactly what the ad was saying, but it said something like, "Hey, here is a way for vets to launch their businesses online." I immediately was like, "Whoa, this is so cool. Someone's going for this market?" I didn't know anyone who's been going for that. It's such a needed thing, being in the military myself. How did you even get into that? JEN: Absolutely. I grew up very patriotic. I didn't realize until this year that the veterans were my ideal client. How it happened was, I was always trying to help veterans that were, military guys and gals that needed help with the internet marketing and getting themselves to the next level. Most recently, I was volunteering at a local homeless veteran shelter where some guys and gals were in transition. I said ... Well, a little back story. Three years ago I was on a motorcycle, my first ride, and I was life-flighted off the highway. STEVE: Oh, my gosh. Three years ago? JEN: Three years ago. Twenty-five, 30 minutes into my first ride with a friend on Highway 95. We were set at 70 miles per hour. Road debris came out of everywhere. An 18-wheeler had blown his tire, and we couldn't avoid one of the pieces. It flattened the back tire. Needless to say, I took a nice, pricey helicopter ride to the trauma center, so I actually lost my business. I was down for a lot of time. Financially, physically, emotionally, I had to go through that trauma. I had a lot of time to think through in recovery, and I made a few decisions about my business when I got back to it, which I really just got back to it full-time this past January. I decided that I was going to partner with the right people and never sit on my ideas and make sure that I was launching all the things that I had written down in a book and that were collecting dust. One of the other pieces was that I was going to give back. Even though I was sort of starting over, I knew what I was doing. I had 15 years in the business. I was relaunching, but I still wanted volunteering and giving back to be part of that. I was literally driving to a veteran center in Jacksonville, Florida and just camping out in the chow hall every Thursday and saying, "Whatever you have, just bring it to me. Just bring me your website needs. Bring me your resume needs. You got a new computer and you need to know how to run it? Just bring it to me." Even some of the staff there who weren't veterans would say, "Hey, I'm going for this other job interview," and so I just made myself available every Thursday. It didn't feel like work. Then fast forward a couple months. A friend of mine that's pretty well-known in the veteran space, he's on the History Channel and got quite a following on social media, said, "I've got four veterans that need, like, yesterday." Just working through those clients, it just didn't feel like work. It just felt so easy, because they're so loyal. They're so grateful. Usually what they're inventing, we're writing about, is something I believe in, so I re-branded my business to be all about serving veterans. STEVE: That's incredible. I love that. I've noticed that a lot of the people that I interview, they never ask permission to go do something like that. You just showed up. You just sit down and every Thursday ... How long did you do that before you went to that re-brand? JEN: I only did that for a couple months, because I actually ended up moving out of the area and haven't found a new local shelter to go help with. Let me see. I believe I started ... January, February, March. Probably about two and a half months into that I re-branded. I was also talking with some coaches. Actually, one of the coaches I was speaking with, a female coach, she was a veteran ... or she is a veteran. She said, "Jen, I got my start helping my fellow Army soldiers, starting their businesses when they got out." I said, "This is my ideal client, the more I think about it." I said, "Is it that easy?" She said, "Yeah." Literally, within 24 hours ... I couldn't even wait to re-brand everything. I went to the team and to the social media images, and I started changing it all up. The first batch was a little bit rough and amateur. I just wanted to get camouflage in there. STEVE: Yeah. Yeah. JEN: That's probably one of the ones you saw or maybe one of the newer ones. Yeah, it was pretty quick. STEVE: Yeah. That's incredible. It's interesting that that's the way it worked out. I remember when I went through basic ... I'm obviously business-minded. I really enjoy it. It's my obsession a little bit. I was going through basic training, and it's hard at certain points. One of the things that kept me going mentally and emotionally was talking about business ideas with all these other guys. I ended up having it, and all these guys that would sit around, and we would just talk about some different strategies. To this day, I still talk to some of them, and they're trying to do business stuff. It's definitely clearly an awesome market. A lot of them are go-getters. Anyways, that's super cool. That's fantastic. JEN: Yep. STEVE: One of the things I've noticed too, though, is that immediately ... You were doing the same thing with me. I was blown away with that, "Hey, do you need help with this? Do you have VAs for this? I have teams for this." You are an absolute master with VAs. How did you get that way? JEN: Thank you for saying that. I love helping people. They ask me, what's my agenda sometimes, very few, but I say, "I just like getting a break from the paying clients, who are so demanding." It's like a break to just pull away and just go help people for free with no expectations, so thank you for that. I have been an entrepreneur my whole life. My father was an entrepreneur, made some money in the door and window business. Very early on ... Well, not too early. I guess my late 20's, because I went and got an architectural degree, a drafting degree, from 26 to 28, but as soon as I came out of that, I worked for someone else for six months, and that was it. I had worked for people previously, from 16 to 28, but I knew at that moment I did not want to work for somebody else, and I couldn't work for somebody else. It just felt like my soul was in jail. STEVE: Yeah. I like that. JEN: I left the corporate world, and I was working for an engineering company, and I co-advertised. I didn't even think you could do this, but I rented an exhibitor space at the kitchen and bath show in Orlando, Florida, way back when, and shared it with one of my competitors. I was turning away 95% of my lead. I was so lucky, because what I was providing was CAD drawings and artist renderings to interior designers and kitchen designers. They didn't have anybody that was serving them. Usually people that were drafts people were going to work for architects and engineers, and so the designer industry was left hanging. I filled that void. I was turning away so much business, I knew back then that I had to learn how to scale my business and learn how to use the software that was out there that was going to help me scale my business by leveraging the tools and the people. Very early on I started to outsource to other drafters and just caught the bug of outsourcing and marking up the work and being the middle man really. I was outsourcing right away. I ran with the CAD services for about four or five years. After teaching myself everything on the internet, everything that I could at that time ... The internet was much smaller then. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: It was easier to master. I re-branded into Internet Girl Friday, and I've been doing that ever since. Again, I did lose my business for about two and a half years, but I've been back at it now, and I have virtual assistants and developers. It's great, because in my mind that's the only way to scale your business, is to have a team to support you. That's what we're doing. STEVE: Yeah, and you clearly have that. It's so fascinating, though. I wish I could pull up the text real quick that you sent me. It was a long list of stuff that you were asking me if I needed help with. I was like, "Man, she's got the hook-ups." JEN: Yeah, I would say, if it touches the web, we can do it and mean it. People come to me and say, "Well ..." I have friends that, you know how the friends and family never know what you're doing with the internet, and they don't get it. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: I have a friend that called me. I said, "Listen, I've got 20 minutes to talk. What's up?" He said, "Sounds like you're too busy and you can't take on my work." I said, "No, I have a team for that. I can do it. We can do it." I'm hiring people all the time. There's no shortage of people out there that want to work, whether they're US-based or they're offshore. There's hundreds of thousands of workers out there that ... You can go to Fiverr. You can go to so many different sites and get people to help you in your business, and I take advantage of that. STEVE: That's amazing. When I was in college, that's really when I started getting the bug for this. Well, that's when I started getting traction, I should say. I always had the bug. I went and I started hiring these different VAs. My buddy and I, we were building this Smartphone insurance business, and we went and we hired out this guy. He was just like, he wasn't very good. We paid him $500 to build this really small thing. It wasn't big at all, and we got it back and it was awful, like, "What the heck?" That's why I started using click funnels, so I could do it on my own. Then another time came up and another time came up. I was like, "Man, I'm really striking out with these VAs." I'm curious how it is that you actually go find good ones, because that's a skill in and of itself that I don't think people realize you need to have. Not all VAs obviously are built the same. What process are you taking up? What are you having them do? How are you vetting the VAs for your vets? JEN: There's a couple different ways. I hate to say this, but I don't like the big outsourcing sites. I think it's really hard to find that needle in the haystack, and you have to spend a lot of time sorting through people that are really just looking at the dollars per hour; right? They're like, "No, I can't make anything less than $8 an hour." They overbid. I just don't like those sites. I never had great luck with them ever. STEVE: That's totally the opposite than what everyone else says, so that's interesting. JEN: I've done it for 15 years. If I had an army of 100 virtual assistants, do you know how much money I'd be making? If it was that easy, I would have just hired a team of people from there, but I've spoken to people for 15 years from those big sites. What I find works for me is I enter a couple of virtual assistant groups on Facebook. Whenever I have a need for somebody, I post the job on my blog post, and I'll send a link out to the virtual assistant groups and say, "Hey, by the way, this week I'm looking to talk to people that have skills in ..." whatever skill I'm looking for that week. That's worked out well, because I only get a handful. I might get 10, 15, 20 applicants. It's totally manageable. I have a forum on the blog post. I'm not going to field emails or phone calls or be scattered. I want them to just dump their info into a form, and then I can go back and look at, and I can say, "All right. I'd love to talk to these three out of 10 on Skype," or somehow. They say, "Hire two and fire one." Try a couple people out just on a small ... I work through baby steps when it comes to hiring a virtual assistant. Let's take one tiny task, not, "Oh, I found you. Here's all my money. Here's all my tasks. Talk to you in a week." That will just go wrong every time. You want to start with, "Can you contact me on Skype," because that's a requirement. That's my office. If they tell me they don't have Skype, they're out. It's that simple. You have to work my way in my company with my tools. I'm flexible, but you have to show up in my time zone. You have to speak my language. We start at the very beginning and make sure that those pieces are there before moving on to, "Okay, here's how you get into my project management system, and here's where you find your first task." I work closely alongside them and say, "Stay with me right here on Skype. Tell me, 'Jennifer, I'm starting Task A right now, and I plan to be done in 15 minutes, and I'll ping you back when I'm done, so you can review it.'" It's really micromanaged in the first week. As you get more comfortable and as they're trained a little bit more, then they can work on their own time. I literally do that every morning for about two hours, Monday through Friday, from, roughly, 9 to 11 every day, which is a lot of time when you think about it. I'm also mentoring virtual assistants, so I'm not paying the ones that I mentor that I identify in the group as being really smart and might have come from 15, 20 years of past corporate experience, so they have skills. They just don't realize how to translate them to the internet. Again, I love helping people, so I say, "Come on in as an apprentice. You can follow along. You can invite your friends to sit in your house and watch. It doesn't matter." I've hired people from that group as well. STEVE: Wow. That's fascinating. If the person is good, they might have friends that are good. Might as well bring the friends along and train them too. JEN: Yeah. I tell them, "Listen, I'm looking to build teams, so if you already know someone ..." I had this conversation just last night with one of Filipino VAs. She's amazing. I said, "I'm about to hire a few more, so if you know anybody ..." She's like, "Well, actually, I do have three assistants, and they work in my house with me. It's my goal to help these single moms that need some more income to get going." I said, "Great. Let's ramp them up." Yeah. STEVE: Awesome. That's fantastic. That's amazing. Eventually, what started happening was I was like, man, I literally have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on VAs for stuff that was not very good work. I was not happy with it. I started going through, not the same process at all. That's genius. I'm going to have to ... That's absolutely incredible. I'm going to have to think more about that and try and figure out how I can do that too, or I'll just ask you, hire you to do it. Do you have a particular freelance or VA site, I guess, that you like more than others, Fiver, Freelancer, Upwork? JEN: I love Fiverr. Actually, this morning before this podcast, I was looking on Fiverr for a virtual assistant but only because in the virtual assistant groups that I'm in on Facebook, I saw someone saying, "I'm not getting any traction as a VA on Fiverr. What am I doing wrong?" I clicked on the link which took me to their Fiverr account, and I said, "I'm willing to try you out. Contact me on Skype." Again, that's my first requirement. I use Fiverr for other services. If my dev team is too busy with some bigger projects, and I need to knock out some quick keyword research or a quick image, I can go to Fiverr and I can find it. It's just like any other service where you can see the ratings, but for some reason they have, they've made their user interface so easy to navigate and quickly see, "Oh, wow, they've had 200 projects. They're five stars on all the reviews for all those projects. I'm pretty sure they're returning good work, and it's dollars." Who can't lose $5; right? We spend that on a coffee sometimes. It's different from going to the big sites like Upwork and saying, you have to put your whole job description. You have to say, this is 30 hours a month or 30 hours a week, whether it's permanent. They make you jump through so many hoops before you even find someone. Then you might get a thousand applicants, and you have to sort through all that. It's too much work, where you can go to Fiverr and just browse really quickly and click on someone. You don't even have to click on someone and contact them, but you can just put your mouse over their little portfolio image, and it shows you how many jobs, how many stars. Very quickly you can jump into having an assistant or a vendor. I know there's a lot of controversy with using offshore vendors versus keeping it in the USA, and I do keep most of my work, 99% of my work, in the USA. Even my Indian development team is in the USA, strangely. When you're restarting, which is the mode I'm in now after the accident, you need that payroll break; right? You want to have assistants so you can scale your business, but you can't go out and afford the $25-an-hour United States VA, so it does help to go offshore. I do like the Filipino virtual assistants. They are super-smart, super-talented. Their English is perfect. They are very friendly and very accommodating. There's no language barrier like I've experienced with other countries. They're extremely affordable. Here's a little trick that I've done. I've gone to Wikipedia and typed up, "Countries with the lowest hourly rate," and it's mind-blowing and scary that there's some countries or areas of their countries where 50-cents-per-hour is the minimum wage. STEVE: Oh, man. JEN: That's not saying you can just go there and find a virtual assistant. Virtual assistants have to be a booming industry in a certain country for it to be valuable to you, but the Philippines are great. STEVE: That's incredible. There's a workaround that I have found that helps. I did a whole podcast on this actually earlier, because it's a frustrating thing to go through. The biggest things I've learned from Russell, you got to have people. The biggest things I've learned from my own things, you've got to have people. Otherwise, you as the entrepreneur get bogged down. You can't handle all of the tasks. This is definitely valuable information to hear. There was a workaround that I, to using VAs that I was figuring out too. Do you use Freelancer.com much? JEN: I have, but, again, I didn't use it much. STEVE: Yeah. It's a little bit challenging. There was one feature that saved my butt on a lot of different things, and it was the fact that you can post contests. That's actually pretty cool. I needed all these different images made, or I needed a tee-shirt design. I basically said, "Hey, I really want to motivate people, so here's the prize is $100 and everyone submit your work. I'm just going to choose one guy." It was fantastic. I got 80 or 90 submissions, and the whole week during the contest, I could talk back to them and say, "This looks good but change this." "This looks good but change this." I could rate all of their work, which was public to everyone else. All the work, the freelancers started pushing towards a different path as they watched my comments to other people. That's really the only trick I have for VAs. I haven't done anything else that you do with it. It kind of works, but what you do is a lot cooler, actually. JEN: I don't know. The contests sound pretty cool. I remember seeing them on Topcoder years ago when I was looking to build a software, and someone said, "If you don't have unlimited budget to build the software, present it as a contest." I thought that was fascinating, where they have a contest for one part of the software and a contest for another part. Then they have a contest at the end to put all the parts together. I thought that was fascinating. STEVE: That's incredible. Hey, there's a lot of people obviously who are trying to get into this space who want to do what you're doing. I know you alluded to it before, but what would be the first step to getting a good VA? JEN: I would definitely check out the virtual assistant groups in Facebook. It's a close-knit community. People can vouch for other people. There's some names at the top that know a lot of the VAs in the industry, so they actually have requests for proposal boards that you could sign up to and submit your work. Then you know you're getting a qualified VA, or you can find me and I'll point you in the right direction. I would check sites like FreeeUp. That's with three E's, F-R-E-E-E-U-P.com. STEVE: I've never heard of it. Awesome. JEN: It's new. It's getting a face-lift. The site is only about eight months old, I think. They've got some big plans. Nathan Hirsch, who's out of Orlando, Florida, he's doing very well with it. You can get VAs as low as $5 and up to $50 per hour, depending on what skillset you require. Check out the Filipino ... I can't remember the domain names off the top of my head, but there are a lot of Filipino virtual assistant sites out there that you can just Google it up, and it will pull up some of the top ones. They really are a great crowd for your everyday administrative stuff. I'm literally teaching my VAs now how to set up some of the beginning integrations of click funnel. STEVE: That's awesome. JEN: I have a checklist, and they can go through and connect the SMTP and the domain and do some of the basic setup. Then I can take it from there and build a funnel. STEVE: Fantastic. Just because you mentioned it, how are you using it with click funnels? I went through and looked at your site, and it looks fantastic. It's very clean. HowToGoVirtual; right? Dot-net? JEN: That's the academy site that we're launching. The services site, where all of our clients go through is InternetGirlFriday.com, and we're just like any other entrepreneur. We have multiple different sites. What happened was, I needed to get all of this information into other people's hands. I've got 15-plus years on the internet. Of course, you want to package that up and provide it online as a video course or some type of academy environment. I created a class to teach people the four steps of getting your business website launched, because you know how customers get confused about the internet. The internet is so big now, and there's so many steps, and the algorithms. They get approached by so many vendors. "What should I be paying for," and I said, "I've got to find a way to simplify this." Back in 2010, I think it was, I came up with a 12-step plan. Just a way to categorize everything you do on the internet came to 12 categories. That's it. I just wanted to show people, "Okay, Step 1 is your research and your keyword research and your competitive analysis. Step 12, at the end, is analytics." Everything falls somewhere in between, so that they had something that they could follow along. Not that every strategy goes in order, but the first four I call, "The foundation." You've got to do your keyword research if you're going to launch a website, and your competitive analysis, and you have to know what people are looking for, what your target market is looking for. Step 1. Step 2, building your website in a blueprint first. I think that's so important, because you need to get the SEO and the keywords that were revealed in the first step into your website. If you just hand your website over to someone, they might make it beautiful for the humans, but they're neglecting what robots need to see through Google. STEVE: Right. JEN: That's Step 2, build the blueprint. Step 3, build the website. Step 4, connect it to the search engines and some directories. Now you've got your foundation to go offsite and do all your marketing with whatever strategy you're deploying. I package that up into a course. I'm glad that I had the time off that I did, because when I came back to it, there was click funnel, and it was like, "Ah." Finally there; right? The funnel isn't new. The strategy isn't new. It's a little different, because, again, the internet is bigger and more complicated, but a sales funnel is still a sales funnel; right? We didn't reinvent the funnel. We just put the software together in one place, like Russell. All the steps that you used to have to do, you used to have to literally build a landing page, usually in HTML, because you needed it to be a certain way. If you needed a green check-mark versus a red check-mark, it was all piecework. Then you'd have to go to the next step, and you'd have to connect your email responder. Everything was daisy-chained together. It was so overwhelming, that most people didn't launch, because there was so much work. Even me, who has a team, knew how to do it for so many years, I could never launch, because it was overwhelming. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: ClickFunnels comes on the scene and it's all in one place. I don't use the term, "All-in-one" lightly. I don't give credit to many softwares. It's not an all-in-one where you're billing and all your other things are in there, but for the funnel it's all in one. Everything is literally in one place, and it's been so exciting to set up and to get going and to see that now I can literally wake up at 3 am, have an idea, and within two hours, have it going and some ads going, and it's launched. That's the exciting part. My clients are excited about it to. STEVE: That's so cool. That's so awesome. I remember when I first started putting things together for ... It was an artist actually that built the first site/funnel four or five years ago. I remember spending two hours ... No, it was two days, two full days, trying to make WordPress act like a squeeze page. JEN: I know. STEVE: It was the most hellish thing. It was awful. I remember just settling with something. I can't remember what it was. Neither of us liked it. I'm not a coder or programmer. I can read it. I can edit it, but I'm not at all a programmer, at all. I was like, "This is terrible." I almost gave up on the internet a little bit, because it was so hard. Then when click funnels came around, I remember I saw the presentation that Russell gave mine. I probably shouldn't have done this, but I didn't talk to my wife about it. I immediately bought it, and I started using it and building for other people. I was like, "This is the craziest thing." Now I dream in funnel editor. It's the funniest thing. JEN: Same thing, yeah, because back when you were creating your old landing page, which, again, is just one tiny piece of the whole funnel, I often went back and forth to, "Gees, I've got to hire a developer just to create a landing page page template in my WordPress?" Then that never got done. Then you go over to the third-party platforms that are providing fully landing pages. You're like, "I don't want to spend another $50 a month just to do this one piece, because by the time I'm done with the whole funnel, I'm spending a thousand dollars a month just to get it all connected. Yeah, it's been such a blessing, and I'm so excited. STEVE: I think my record so far with sitting here next to Mr. Russell Brunson, I think the fastest we put a funnel out is 45 minutes or something like that, a full one. It's like there's no way. He and I will still sit back and be like, "I can't believe we have this software," and he's the CEO of it. We'll be like, "Man, look what we just did. Look what we pulled off." He's like, "This little change used to cost me 10 grand. We're going to do it in 30 minutes." JEN: I remember testing my first webinar funnel, and I didn't have it completely set up, but at some point I got my reminder email, and I said, "Oh, look, how cool is that? I'm already getting the emails automatically." I didn't even set up the email, and I clicked on the link inside that said, "Your webinar is starting now." I clicked it 20 minutes late. When I did click it, it went right into the webinar that was playing, at the 20-minute mark. I said, "This is magic." STEVE: Yeah. So cool. I know I said we'd keep it to 30 minutes. You are amazing. I can't believe all the stuff you're pulling off is incredible, manager and builder of teams. I'm looking at all these sites right now. It's absolutely incredible and just crazy impressive. Where should people go if they want to follow you, learn more about you, even obviously use some of your services. JEN: Yeah. If you go to InternetGirlFriday.com, then you can find my social media, which is everywhere. We have Periscope and Instagram and YouTube and all that, and follow me on any of those. We're very active there. InternetGirlFriday.com is the service's site. You can contact me there. You can say, "Hey, I don't need to hire you, but I have a question," and I'll be glad to help. STEVE: Awesome. I appreciate it so much. Thanks. This is spur-of-the-moment, but this has been awesome. JEN: Sure. Thank you. STEVE: All right. Hey, we'll talk to you later. JEN: Okay. Bye-bye.   Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnels for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/FreeFunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.  

Steve: Hey, everyone. This is Steve Larsen and welcome to Sales Funnel Radio.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business, using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. (music ends)   Steve: All right you guys. Hey, I am super excited. Today I've got two very special, kind of unique guests on the podcast. As you guys know, a lot of times, I record my own thoughts on things that Russell and I are doing to make marketing awesome, but I like to go and interview other people as well. Today I've got on the show with me, it's Dallin Greenberg and Kristian Cotta. These guys have a pretty awesome unique way for building funnels. Anyways, I want to welcome you. Thanks for joining me.   Dallin: Appreciate it.   Kristian: What up.   Steve: Hey. I actually was thinking about it and Dallin, I don't even remember how we actually met. It wasn't that long ago, was it?   Dallin: Ah, no, not very. Just a couple weeks.   Steve: Just a couple weeks ago.   Kristian: I think Dallin met you the way that him and I kind of joke about he's the black box back alley hacker. He does all the ...   Dallin: If there's someone I want to meet, I find a way.   Kristian: He's the unconventional guy. You won't find his practices in a book or a manual.   Steve: Crap, that makes me a little nervous.   Dallin: Yeah, don't mess ... I told Kristian the other day ...   Kristian: Not black hat, black box.   Steve: Yeah. We can call it whatever we want, right? No, just kidding.   Kristian: Yeah.   Steve: Well, hey thanks for-   Dallin: I told Kristian, the other ... Oh, I'm sorry.   Steve: No, no, you get a say. Thanks for letting me wake you up at the butt crack of dawn and still being willing to share some cool stuff.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: How did you guys start meeting or working with each other?   Kristian: I'll let Dallin take that one.   Dallin: Yeah. I was working on a kind of unique project. We had a guy up in Scottsdale that owns a software. He's the developer. It's a software that does algorithmic stock trading and he was stuck with his marketing. He's a big guy. He's got a lot of stuff going, but anyway, we were trying to help him get some plans going.     I had actually watched Kristian on Periscope. I'd met a lot of guys on Periscope and one day I noticed Kristian was actually in Chandler, which is only a few miles away from me. Like I said, if I see someone, I'm going to find a way to meet him, so I'll comment in his Periscope a few times and little by little, end up getting his contact info. Day later we're in a Starbucks together talking about a plan that we can do, well I was more impressed with Kristian, what he was doing. My partner that I was working on with this marketing plan for this software developer, we were on kind of different pages. I have a background in sales and Kristian's dynamic was a little more my still, so my partner ended up leaving and I ended up asking Kristian, "Hey, is there anything on the side that you're working on or that I think we can do together?"   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Badda bing badda boom. We've ... I feel like it's the perfect love story. We've been hanging out pretty much ever since.   Steve: As long as he says the same thing, I guess that is true, right?   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah, no. The funny thing, Steve, about Dallin is I'd been with ClickFunnels, I was one of the first 50 people that signed up for the beta version of ClickFunnels.   Steve: Wow. You're from the dark ages, Man, that's awesome.   Kristian: Dude. Yeah. We were just talking yesterday because we literally I mean the crazy part ... I'd been so resistant to start using Actionetics.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Until I had to transfer from Infusionsoft to AWeber, AWeber to ActiveCampaign and we're trying to do something and it's like, "Dude, why don't we just use Actionetics?" It's all in here." I'm like, "Fine." We're switching everything over and I needed ... I'd been doing funnels and learning about ... like when I first signed up for ClickFunnels, I didn't know what a funnel was. I wasn't even sure what Russell had explained to me. It just sounded so cool and I was like, "Dude, I'm going to figure this thing out because what he's talking about and the numbers, I'm like, "That's what I need to be doing. That's it." I been doing this for two and a half years, which is kind of a long time in funnel years.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, it is.   Kristian: It's not really that long of a time in regular terms, but I got on Periscope and started kind of talking about my business. At the time, I was trying to grow this fitness, be an online fitness guy.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I'd used funnels to grow an email list of 3,500 people and I got on to Periscope and nobody cared about the fitness. They wanted to know how I was growing my email list and how I was doing my, how was I doing this business.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: Then I kind of became one of the funnel guys on Periscope and was a speaker at the Periscope Summit. I got this notoriety on Periscope for, they call me the King of Funnels. I'm like, "No, guys. I know some really big funnel guys on Periscope." They're like, "No, King of Funnels."   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: It's been like two and a half years of this little journey of learning funnels where it's been ... I'll tell you the three guys I credit everything to are Russell, Todd Brown and [Lo Silva 00:06:09].   Steve: Mmm.   Kristian: I actually had just finished the PCP coaching program with Todd Brown and those guys. Dallin, when he came to me was like, "Dude, this stuff you're talking about is awesome." I said, "Well, let's, I need a guy that gets it. That is driven and ... " that was Dallin. Now we've got this little, little agency we're trying to scale.   Steve: That's awesome, because good partners are hard to find. I remember I started doing this back in college. My buddy and I were driving traffic for Paul Mitchell and we were doing all this stuff. I ended up firing, going through nine different partners. It's cool that you guys found each other, you know what I mean? That's pretty rare just right there.   Kristian: Yeah. If you go back and talk about Dallin's ... there's a couple of key things that I was looking for, because I have an entire course. You love Periscope. I saw some of your Periscopes on YouTube and ...   Steve: Dang it. Man, those were the new days for me.   Kristian: Yeah. I was a speaker at the Periscope Summit in January.   Steve: Cool. Wow.   Kristian: Dallin's helped me develop this program and it's something that we've rolled out in beta and we're going to roll out as a digital product. It's called the Live Video Funnel. I've been working with Todd Brown and the guys at MFA on the entire sequence and the packaging and all that kind of stuff. They're calling Kurt [Malley 00:08:00] speaking at Marketing Funnel Automation Live in October and one of the things they're saying is that the biggest opportunity of 2017 is, they call it the Facebook Live Funnel, but I'm going to let you guys in on a little note. Facebook Live and Periscope don't work the same way. Even though they're both live video, they're different, so Dallin ... I needed somebody to help me with that aspect. I couldn't ... to be honest, you know this Steven,   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I couldn't do all that, every single thing, every single aspect of a funnel.   Steve: No.   Kristian: The script writing, the copy writing, the editing, the videos for the VSL's, the strategy, the email marketing sequences, all the social media.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: What I'm really good, compliments what Dallin's really good at, like I said, his ability to get in on Facebook and recruit people. He has this really strong sense about building a team, which is one of those things that ... we both get along with people, but Dallin's good at that recruitment process. When you want to build and scale something and you need the right people, you need somebody like that.   Steve: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, it's hard to find that stuff. Dallin, you and I, we were talking a little bit about some of the trials you guys went through. Obviously individually you do, but you guys met each other, what have you guys been working on and I guess what was the ... What are some of the issues you guys have run on, I guess, getting to where you are. You know what I mean?     Unspoken stories, you know that where none of us put in our marketing hardly ever unless it's part of our sales letter. "I was in the dumps, but now I'm flying high." These are like, really what kind of issues did you guys run into what you're doing now? What are you doing now, first of all?   Dallin: Well, the majority of our issues actually are from more individual sides. We're actually doing really good with our projects together.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Your typical issues you run in together are testing. That's what funnels are, right, it's testing, testing, testing, testing. There's always that down side until you ... it's just a numbers game, right, until you find something that works. As far as the personal side, because I believe that this kind of runs, this is the fire that's on the inside, the Y factor from what I call it, right. My background's in sales, so I did door-to-door for years. I think, Steven, you've mentioned that you flirted with that a little bit but, I was really good at it.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. That's like, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's one of the best educations I've ever had.   Dallin: Yeah. Yeah.   Steve: I've got a marketing degree and I don't know what I learned from it. You know?   Dallin: Well, that's actually just what I was going to say. I was going to school for business and marketing and be honest, my classes were super redundant. I hated them. I was like, "Man, this is for years I've been planning on doing this and ... " Anyway I got into sales and I did pretty good at it. I just kept going. I ended up doing more recruiting and for six, seven years going out on the summers and taking a team out and helping manage and recruit and sell.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: You learn so much from just talking to people, the sale cycle, funnels, a different type of funnel, right?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Learning how to build value to the point where it doesn't matter what you ask for money, because they love it so much that they're going to buy. It taught me a lot. Well, long story short, I made my transition. I was doing alarms and home automation. I made my transition with this solar boom.   Steve: Mmm.   Dallin: Solar's on fire and fortunately for us, we live in Arizona, one of the sunniest places in the world. Solar was hot, but a lot of stuff was happening politically. A lot of the utilities are trying to shut down solar here just because of different costs. It's a mess. They succeeded and actually the utility ... There's two main utilities in Arizona. They succeeded shutting down solar where I live.     In order for me to get work, I'd have to go an hour a day just to prospect clients, let alone keep my pipelines, my relationships, my contracts, everything going, because they're longer projects. It was really funny because I was really bummed because I was really excited about this transition. It was a huge jump for me because we were so comfortable with what we were doing, making awesome money and it was kind of just this really big leap of faith. Well, last April, fast forward a little bit, last April, our little girl, our daughter, she was four years old. She got diagnosed with leukemia.   Steve: Oh man.   Dallin: When that happened, we literally were going to leave for another summer, two days after she was diagnosed. It was crazy. Everything was just happening and days and days and days sitting in the hospital. I had always wanted to do something online my whole life, but I didn't want to ... I didn't know exactly what was happening. I didn't know where I wanted to put my foot in. I didn't want to mess with inventory and selling one off things. I wanted to do something on a big level. I just didn't know how to do it.     In the hospital you got a lot of time to yourself and so I'd study these things. I'd start looking at different processes. I'd find patterns. I would sign up for everyone's email list, not because I cared about their product. I wanted to see their system. I wanted to study the funnel. I wanted to study the email sequences and I started seeing the patterns.     That's when I kind of got into a lot of this other stuff with Periscope and live stream. I was like, "Man, this is the future. I get it." I think every guy that's doing any sort of digital marketing has a day where they, it kind of clicks and they say, "Holy smokes. I can really ... This is powerful. This is how you can reach a lot of people." What everyone wants to do is have a voice and do something.     I ended up switching my major, going to school for persuasion and negotiations were my sayings. I was a business communication major and I had that emphasis in persuasion and negotiation. Looking back on everything now, it was just perfect. Everything kind of worked out really, really good. I was kind of like, my little side, so we really hit this kind of rock bottom where it was like ... financially we took a massive hit because I wasn't able to go out, drive an hour and do all this kind of stuff. This last year-   Steve: Yeah. You needed to be home. Yeah.   Dallin: This last year has really been an investment of my time and I just kind of feel like I went back to school. I feel like I'm getting way more out of this school than four years of collegiate, right?   Steve: Easily. Man, how's your daughter now? If you don't mind me asking.   Dallin: She's awesome. She's in a maintenance phase right now, got another year left of treatments, but she's ... hair's back and muscles coming back and went back to school. She's in a really, really good spot right now. Appreciate it.   Kristian: She's strong too. You should see her.   Steve: Really?   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: That's amazing.   Dallin: It's from everything that she went through. She got down to, had to relearn to walk, lost all her muscles. She was a little skin and bones and now she's this little muscle ball.   Kristian: Now she's a beast.   Dallin: She's awesome.   Steve: I appreciate you guys sharing that kind of stuff. I mean it's ... because most of the ... I've never interviewed anyone on this who hasn't gone through something crazy, you know. It's not like the path is always clear, either. Usually it isn't.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: There's a lot of times I wake up and come here, I'm like, "I don't even know. I know I got to work on something, but I don't know what." It's like going through this hazy fog, so I appreciate that. Then there's all the personal side and all the things going on. Yeah, I first started getting into this stuff, little bit similar with door-to-door sales. I started looking around going, "What the heck?" We're driving out and there's all these billboards everywhere. I was like, "People call these things ready to buy." I'm knocking on people's doors all day long and they're not wanting to buy it when they wake up. I've got to go convince people who weren't planning on spend money. Like, "How do I do this?" I start putting ads everywhere and that's how I started getting phone sales and stuff. I was like, "There's something to this." Anyways, I-   Dallin: See, that's funny because I was kind of the same person. All the other managers are, "Dallin, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It works."   Steve: DS, yeah.   Dallin: DS, this. I'm like, "No, guys. There is a better way." My motto in everything in life is there is always a better way. I don't care what you say and what's working. Something can be tweaked and something can be done to scale.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.   Kristian: Which is funny, because Russell always says, "You can tell the pioneers because they're lying face down with arrows in their back."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I guess in this case, it wasn't really pioneering. You were trying to find the people laying face down.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Dallin: Yeah.   Steve: Side stepping all the other people who were already face down because they knocked 400 doors that day, right?   Dallin: Yeah, seriously.   Steve: What are you guys working on right now though? You guys mentioned that there's some awesome things going on. What's your current funnel, if you don't mind talking about that? [inaudible 00:18:19] sounds like, maybe ...   Kristian: Dallin said like perfect timing. I feel like it has been. We joke about being a startup because ultimately we are, to the point that we're even in the process of creating our business plans and our SOP's and all that kind of stuff, so that we can talk to some investors. We have some investors that we're talking to in order to really have the capital that we think we need to be able to scale this thing quickly, instead of Facebook ads tested at $10 a day for 50 weeks.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. The whole reason I got into learning funnels was, you guys talked about door-to-door sales and I have 15 years of commercial real estate experience. I worked with clients like L.A. Fitness and McDonald's. I represented McDonald's for the state of Arizona and Burger King and Taco Bell, so pretty big name companies.     There's a lot of guys that would be happy with that, but the problem I had was that I kept looking at the deal size of what I was doing. It was constantly kind of like this feast or famine situation where you either had a huge check or you had nothing. Literally, nothing. It kind of got to the point where I was like, "Man, there's a better way to do this." Very similar. You guys hear the consistent theme here? There's a better way.     That was kind of the first step of me saying, "I'm going to figure out how to streamline this" so that it wasn't even so much ... I just kept seeing all the guys that were buying the properties doing all these big deals. They weren't even in real estate. They had these other businesses that were generating cash flow and here I am putting these deals together that are making, Dallin and I had this exact conversation, making these guys over a million dollars and they're like, "Oh hey, thanks. Here's 40 grand."   Steve: Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: What's wrong with this equation? I'm the one that did the whole thing, the financials and all that. I just didn't have the money. That was the start of it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Then you add on top of it that we got into a network marketing company and did really well, but we got stuck right under about 10 grand a month for like 18 months. It turned into another full time job where I was 40, 50 hours a week at every Starbucks from east to west meeting people. I'm like, "This is not working."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Those two combined, I was like, "If I get online, I can figure out how to do both of these. I don't have to pick because I can leverage myself."   Steve: That is kind of the funny thing I learned about ... because I got into an MOM. I went and did exactly what my upline was saying. Got 13 people my first move.   Kristian: Oh, wait, your [inaudible 00:21:42] not duplicatable.   Steve: No. Not at all.   Kristian: I don't care. If I find enough of the right people, it won't have to be.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. My first month, I recruited 13 leeches. Man, they wouldn't do a dang thing unless I was like pushing them in the back with a cattle prod. I was like, "Ah. There's got to be a better way to do this." That's why I took it online and did a lot better. I definitely relate with that.   Kristian: Yeah. The crazy part about this is, like Dallin was saying, he's, shoot, some of the advanced strategies ... Dallin's has this like ... he understands and can see what the outcome is that we're trying to do. He gets it. He gets the whole flow and process of this, of how funnels work. He's been studying them. I just think for a big part, he just needed to connect certain pieces and be able to see what's going on behind the scenes that you can't see online.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We talk about ... the hardest part about knowing how to do funnels is focusing because when you understand it and it clicks and you realize what you can do, it's like .... Someone starts talking you're like, "Oh my God. I know how to make money with that. Oh my God."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's like entrepreneurial ADD exacerbated.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Forget entrepreneurial ADD. This is like an entrepreneurial ADD addiction.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: That's the issue, so we've had to get very focused on okay what's the quickest and most pressing thing at the moment that we can make money with, so that we can reach our long term goals. Like I said, Lo Silva is one of the guys that I credit a lot of what I learned from. There's three little things that I take from them and that's think big, start small, scale fast.   Steve: Interesting. Think big, start small, scale fast.   Kristian: Yeah, that's kind of our little mantra.   Dallin: Yeah. That leads into basically what we're doing now. Our whole plan without getting too much into detail is we have a very, very big picture. Just like a funnel, we have our personal value ladder. Our big picture is more in investments, real estate, things like that. Those are our high tickets. Right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: For the time being, we need to make sure that we couple that with clients, so we have our lead gen system, our agency that's doing multiple things, SCO work and funnels, and social media strategies and management and that way it can help us scale. Our agency essentially fronts the bills and I guess the best way to put it is we want everything that we do to be self-sufficient. If we build something, the entire goal-   Steve: Keep it in hands.   Dallin: Well, yes and no. The entire thing is for that project to sustain itself, so you understand once you get going with your Facebook marketing and such, it gets to the point where you reinvest X amount back into it. Then it lives, it breaths on it's own kind of. It just needs to be monitored, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: If we have this solid balance between us of we have clients coming to us for done-for-you services, that's awesome. That's cash. That keeps us busy. That keeps workers of ours busy. Then in the meantime, if we can couple that with 40, 50% of our other time for in-house projects, because Kristian and I already have entrepreneurial ADD, we're always thinking of ideas. We always have something going on or a lot of times a client that comes in has something that sparks an idea.   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: We'll, like you said, we'll keep them in-house and then we funnel them. We get them to the point where they self-sustain and all of a sudden, we have our house projects, our client projects and it's just a very healthy business model. You don't see a lot of very sustainable and scalable models. You know what I mean?   Steve: Yeah.   Dallin: Especially, because I've been with very, very, very big companies with these companies I've sold for and you find ... one of the things I like to do is study patterns and development. I'm really into the business development side of things. You look at the ones that have made it, that have succeeded and that are scaled to the massive, massive billion dollar companies and that's kind of what they do. They make sure they have kind of that happy medium, that solid balance in all these different areas and factors and that's kind of what we're trying to do.     One of the projects we're working on right now is a political campaign funnel. This is just one that's easy to scale and we're just pretty much hacking it and taking advantage events which one of the things coupling social media with funnels is current events, man. That's, they kill. If you can find something trending and good and that has ... that you can milk for a long time, you better believe we're going to find a way to make, pinch money out of it, right.   Steve: Yeah. Isn't it the-   Dallin: I'll let Kristian talk about that.   Steve: The political campaign funnel, is that the one you downloaded I think from Sales Funnel Broker?   Kristian: Ah, no.   Steve: Maybe that was you, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. There's some guy, he downloaded it and came back and he's like, "This is the coolest thing ever." I was like, "Just the share [funnel 00:27:53] free one I got from someone else. Glad you like it."   Kristian: Yeah, no. I got the idea from actually from Funnel ... I got part of the idea from Funnel U. To be honest, as much as we know about funnels, something clicked when I watched Russell's video inside the membership site for the political bridge funnel, where it was like, "I see it." It was that coupled with the, the funnel stacking I got that whole idea of moving them from a front end funnel to a webinar funnel to a high ticket and how you stack those.   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: Bridging and when all the sudden the bridging made sense to me, I said, "Oh my God." Just like what Dallin was talking about here. Ultimately our goal is to, take the same amount of time to do all this work to go and work with somebody and do a commercial real estate transaction, where we're an investor or we're buying the property and people are investing with us, as it does to sell a t-shirt. Just time is time, it's just the size of the value and how you frame your mind around it. We are in the process of growing our agency. The whole point of it is to, if you think of construction companies, really good construction companies constantly have work that's in place to keep their employees working, so that they have the best team, right.   Steve: Mmm. Yeah.   Kristian: That's what they're always talking about is we just have to keep work so we can keep these guys busy. It's not about keeping them busy, but we also want to have the team in place because ultimately when we have our ideas, we can get them shipped quicker.   Steve: Yeah. I've been approached by a few people lately and they're like, "I got these awesome guys. I absolutely love them." He's like, "What work do you have? I just don't want them to go anywhere else." He's like, "I don't care what it is. I just got to bill."   Dallin: That's exactly what it is.   Steve: Yeah, interesting.   Kristian: Yeah. That's the idea, but to get back to what we're doing right now is I got the idea of how Russell explained the political bridge and my dad had ordered 100 t-shirts from my best friend. My best friend did all the screen printing for the Super Bowl in Santa Clara.   Steve: Jeez.   Kristian: He's got one of the largest screen printing companies on the west coast, based here in Phoenix. He has a company very similar to what Trey Lewellen started with Teespring.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: He's set in and he came to us and said, "Hey, why don't you partner with me and just handle the marketing on this." He's talked to me about doing some marketing for them for different aspects of their company. Now we're working together and the whole idea came up I said, "Well, you know what? I think I can do it." Before I was hesitant because I was like, "Well, I'm in the digital media space. I'm selling digital products." That was big hangup was I've got to sell to these entrepreneurs.     Then when this political bridge funnel that Russell talked about when he talked about how you move people from this list to this list, I went, "Oh my God. I can build a list in anything. I can just bridge them." It was a combination of that video inside of Funnel U and my participation in Todd Brown's PCP, Partnership Coaching Program, where they were really working on educational based marketing, and script and copy writing. The confidence level in my own ability to write copy had shifted to where now MFA is outsourcing some of their done-for-you client work to Dallin and I and having me write copy and script for their video sales letters.   Steve: What?   Kristian: Yeah.   Dallin: That's real, man.   Kristian: That tells you the ...   Dallin: We scale fast. Remember that third principle. We scale fast.   Steve: Yeah. Yeah. I wrote all those down. That's amazing. What's funny is that people don't realize that it literally is the exact same amount of work to do a small company as a big one.     My buddy, I mean as far as building a funnel and things like that, my buddy and I were building an [inaudible 00:32:11]. It was the first funnel I ever built with ClickFunnels and it was a smartphone insurance company and we were ... we got out of that for a lot of reasons, but it was interesting though because I was building it. We put it all out. That's actually when I got into ClickFunnels and it was right after ClickFunnels left beta. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to build this whole thing out before my ClickFunnels trial runs out." I'd never built one and I just killed myself for the next little while. We got it out.     Then this guy approaches me in Florida. He's like, "I need a funnel for some of my ..." He was selling water ionizers or something. I was like, "Oh man. This is a big company. They're already making a couple million a year." I was blown away. I was like, wait, this is the same exact amount of work as it was for the small little startup. Anyways, I thought that was interesting you said that.   Kristian: Yeah. That's what we talk about is that it's easier to work with those bigger companies. They get it.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: You work with the smaller companies and they're worried about how much money it's going to cost them. The reality is that the more we put ourselves in a position to work with guys like you and Russell and guys like Todd and Lou Coselino and David Perriera and all them at MFA, they're saying, "Man, why are you, how come you're not charging double and triple?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: Dallin and I are sitting here like seriously if they're willing to pay us to write scripts for, to outsource their ad copy to us for some of their client work, what's that say? I mean, we're literally working with, doing work for the guys that are considered the best in the industry.   Steve: That's ... Yeah. Yeah.   Kristian: It's just a mindset shift is what it is. That has made it a little easier to have a conversation with someone and say, "You know what? We can take on this project. Here's how much it is."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: They're like, sticker shock. Well, sticker shock. You can go and just have someone build the pages for you, but it's not going to convert. I know that for a fact because copy os what converts, right.   Steve: You know Tyler Jorgensen?   Kristian: You know what, it sounds familiar. I think I-   Steve: He said the same thing to me. He's like, "You charge 10 grand to build a custom funnel?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Why not 15?" I was like, "I don't know. I'd never thought about that before." I thought 10 was kind of the mark. He's like, "No, no, no, no. I'd do 15, 20, 25." I was like, "You've got to be kidding." That is is just a mindset shift. You'll get better people to build for anyways, whatever it is.   Kristian: The big thing for us-   Dallin: True and at the same time ...   Kristian: Yeah, I don't know.   Dallin: You there?   Kristian: Yeah, you cut-   Steve: Kind of lost you there.   Kristian: The big thing for us is really to build a team, Steve, and to have that team in place and be able to have people that focus on all the different areas of the funnels, so that they get really, really good at that. They don't have to know the whole process because that's what I've spent the last two and a half years doing, right.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: They can be part of this and be part of building something and helping these clients and really enjoy what they're doing. Then, like I said, when we have these ideas we can ship them. I know you want to know and your audience probably wants to know what it is that we're doing, which is what got you in. I mentioned my friend, Bryant. He's got this company like Teespring. He's got everything in place to roll this out. We had this idea for how to start doing that. We took advantage of knowing that the campaigns going on right now. I mentioned to you I think my dad bought like 100 Trump t-shirts from him. I was like, "Those are really cool shirts." My dad's like, "Yeah, man You should do this funnel stuff and figure out how to sell these to everyone. Look how crazy everyone is about Trump. Trump's going to kill it." At the time, it was still in the Republican Primaries. I'm like, "Well, I don't want to go build a funnel."   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: "Then trump doesn't win the primaries." But as he started pulling away I'm like, "Oh, let's start testing some stuff." We tested one funnel and surprisingly the Facebook campaign got a lot of clicks, but there wasn't a lot of opt-ins and conversions on the funnel. What it did and I think this is one of the biggest skill sets that people who are elite develop versus people that are frustrated and saying this isn't working for me is understanding the information that they're getting and what to do with it. You might not have a winning campaign or a funnel that's making money, but to understand what kind of info you're getting and how to use that to do the next thing is that whole testing process is what separates those that are killing it from those that are getting killed. That first funnel that we did, didn't make money. Not at all.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: I mean it lost $1,200. I went to Dallin and I said, "Dude, this is awesome." He's like, "Huh?" I said, "Look at the retargeting list that we got." Then we went and we tweaked this and I said, "What if we change the front end," and at that time Mike Pence had just been named Trump's VP. I'm like, "Who the hell is Mike Pence? I never heard of this guy before." I started asking people, they're like, "No." Unless you're from Indiana, you don't know who Mike Pence is. I go, "Should Trump have picked Mike Pence? Isn't there someone else." I'm like, "Boom. Is there a vice presidential debate in the Republican Party?"   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We created a little mini survey around is Mike Pence the right one. First of all, you've got all these people that love Trump and they're hardcore republicans and now you're creating an internal debate. Everyone wants to voice their opinion, but they don't want to be judged.   Steve: Yeah. People get pretty intense about that for sure.   Kristian: Yeah. We created a mini survey.   Dallin: Oh yeah.   Kristian: We created a mini survey and we had this retargeting list from the first time and we started running ads. I didn't expect and I don't think Dallin either, that it was going to do as well as it did, but I mean, we had in less than 12 hours, we had 500 email opt-ins.   Steve: What? Oh my gosh.   Kristian: I was like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "Holy crap." I'm like, "What the hell's going on?" Of course the first goal is to try and get the funnel to break even. What we had to do was we were getting so much information so quickly that we really had to be on our toes and make adjustments and modifications. What we figured out through the first week of testing this is there's so much activity on this funnel. Just to give you the stats, after what was Dallin, really 6 days of running the ads, we got 2,600 email subscribers?   Dallin: Five and a half, yeah.   Kristian: Yeah. Five and a half days, we got 2,600 email subscribers.   Steve: Wow.   Kristian: K, the funnels not at break even, but here's what I want whoever's listening and whoever wants to take this information understand is the testing process. We figured out between two front end offers-   Steve: Which one was the winner.   Kristian: Which one's working better.   Steve: Yeah. Which one's the awesome one. Yeah.   Kristian: It's still not winning. Our free plus shipping is not, it's not helping us break even. The reason for that is because we're getting so many opt-ins. On a normal free plus shipping, you're not getting as many people clicking on the ads, right.   Steve: Right.   Kristian: Well, we're getting 5, 6 times the amount of people subscribing to the email-   Steve: Would you, in that scenario, would you ever try and get even less people. It'd be counter-intuitive maybe, but I would just start tweaking the free plus shipping, I guess.   Kristian: No. No. Well, no. We can't-   Dallin: The strategy-   Kristian: Yeah. We can't really tweak it because it's not like we're going to offer anything cheaper than free plus shipping. When you start looking at all the different things we can offer, there's not a lot of options, but here's what Dallin and I have figured out is that we think we've created a new funnel. It's not really new in the sense of what you and I and Russell and all these other guys think of.   Steve: True.   Kristian: In terms of Russel and [Daygin Smith 00:41:29] coming up with the black box funnel, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: It's just soft offer funnel, a front end soft offer. We think that we've come up with what we call a backdoor funnel.   Steve: Interesting.   Kristian: You get so many people on your email list. You get as many people to take the first offer and you get as many people to take your upsell as possible to figure out how close to break even you can get. If you look at 2,600 people, we go back and look at the numbers, only about 115 of those 2,600 ever saw the offer.   Steve: Huh.   Kristian: Now we have an opportunity to present those people with the offer again. Well, how do you do that in a way that's going to get a lot of people to open the e-     All right. Want me to ...We cut off here at the point of high dramas. As I was mentioning, we got so many email subscribers and such a lower number based on the email subscribers because we didn't expect to have that many, that we still weren't at break even, but we have a ton of people that we can show an offer to. It's a little different obviously because our price points ... We're doing apparel and things like that.   Steve: It's like delaying the offer almost on purpose, right. I mean this is ... awesome.   Kristian: Yeah. Remember, we started this whole thing with a survey, right, something that people were very passionate about, so a lot of polarity in there. They want their opinion-     They also want to know what everyone else thinks, where they fall in line here. We thought, "Oh my God. Somebody that votes, that voices their opinion, takes the time to put a vote in wants to know what the results are." We created a results page that shows them the results and has a special offer that all those people haven't seen. When we send it in the email and we tell them here's the results of the survey, the open rates are and the click through rates are sky high.   Steve: How long are you waiting to actually send them this results page?   Kristian: A couple of days, so-   Steve: Oh really. Wow.   Kristian: Yeah. I mentioned Actionetics. The whole reason that we started doing this is because we wanted to ... since we're having people take a survey and we're offering them this gift, we want to make sure we get as many people that take us up on that gift for taking the time to vote. We have a few of those triggers built in there, "Hey, don't forget to grab your free gift. We noticed you took the time, maybe something happened. Go back here and grab your gift." Then we make sure that everybody sees the results page a couple of days later.   Steve: A couple of days. That definitely is a different style for sure. You don't think that hurts conversions at all?   Kristian: No, I mean. It's a survey, right?   Steve: Sure.   Kristian: The point of high drama and the suspense and all that. We're still testing it, again, like I mentioned earlier that the biggest thing I think that separates those that are successful and those that aren't is to understand the type of information that you get.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We may found out that we need to send the results sooner, but we don't know. We've got to test.   Steve: It's interesting positioning too of you saying, "Hey. It look's like. Thanks for taking it. Here's your results. I don't know if missed this, but just jump back and get that." That's interesting. Like they missed it. They missed the gift.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. "You forgot to grab your gift." That's our first step and then in the email that comes after they've taken the survey, "Hey, we're in the process of tallying up the results. We'll send them to you as they're updated."   Steve: Interesting. It keeps the loop open, basically.   Kristian: Hmm-hmm(affirmative). Exactly. Exactly.   Steve: Man, that's awesome. Well, hey is there a URL that we can go check that out on? I don't want to pollute or dilute any of your stats, so if not that's fine, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. We're just running ads to this right now.   Steve: Good.   Kristian: We're in the process of, like I said, this was just an idea that my dad came up with. I've got to give him credit for the initial idea, but now it's turned into kind of a new business entity, right.   Steve: Yeah.   Kristian: We're growing this email list and the concepts that Russell talks about the how to bridge funnels and lists and things like that. We're starting to build a list now in that republican, conservative, survivalist category. We're going to take it a step further and build out a home page and start doing some different stuff with it.   Steve: That's interesting. You're going to go through and who's going to keep opening all the emails over and over again, looking at all the stats of all the people around. These are the hyper active political caring people. You know what I mean? That's awesome. That's a really clever way to segment out those people. That's fantastic.   Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. You never know where your next business entity is going to come from.   Steve: Interesting. Gosh, well, hey, I know we've been on quite a while. Thanks for dropping all the bombs of gold you guys did. I don't know what happened to Dallin, but ...   Kristian: Yeah. He just texted, said thank you. He's trying to get back on, but I know we've got to take the kids to school and stuff, so-   Steve: Awesome. Well, hey man, I appreciate it. Thank you so much and this was awesome.   Kristian: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it, Steve. Love meeting new people that are doing the same thing as us and glad that we can reach more people that are trying to learn how this works and kind of help them understand the process and that if they just stick at it and keep testing. That's really the big thing I think is testing and learning is how you get better at it.   Steve: You're kind of a scientist going through this, for sure. Going in an industry you know will make money obviously, but whatever you're doing specifically, you might almost always be the first. The think big, start small and scale fast. That's huge.   Kristian: Yeah. If anyone wants to connect with us, Dallin and I are both on Facebook. We mentioned Periscope. I do a lot of broadcasting on there with what I call the Live Stream Marketing Funnel Show. We're rolling, if people are interested in learning how to use live video, we've got that coming out. Yeah. Connect with us on social media. Kristian Cotta and Dallin Greenberg.   Steve: Okay, yeah. Then you've got the Health Success Podcast. Guys, go check him out at Health Success Podcast as well as he said Live Stream Marketing?   Kristian: Well. Yeah. Just go to KristianCotta.com. It'll take you right there.   Steve: Cool. Awesome.   Kristian: Kristian with a K.   Steve: Kristian with a K. Cotta, right?   Dallin: I'm in.   Kristian: Kristian with a K. Cotta. Dallin's in here. He just got back in.   Dallin: Dude, I don't know what happened. I was getting all excited what Kristian was saying and then just cut off.   Kristian: It's the point of high drama, that's what we were talking about.   Dallin: I know. It was. That's what I told Amy. Is it over?   Steve: It is now.   Kristian: Yeah. We're just wrapping it up.   Steve: Awesome.   Dallin: Sorry.   Steve: It's good. Hey, thanks guys so much.   Kristian: All right. Take care, Steve.   Dallin: See you man.   Steve: All right. Bye-bye.   Speaker 4: (music starts) Thank for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answered on the show? Get your free t-shirt when your question gets answered on the live Hey Steve Show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question. (music ends)

In this episode we sit down with Centricity Music General Manager, Steve Ford. 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a:hover{color:#8f8f8f !important;} www.fullcirclemusic.orgFCM007_-_Relationships_with_Steve_FordDuration: 00:50:21You're listening to The Full Circle Music Show. The why of the music biz.Chris: Welcome back to the Full Circle Music Show, it’s Chris Murphy and I'm sitting right beside Seth Mosley. How are you buddy?Seth: I'm good man. It's a busy week, lots of good stuff going on over here at the studio. And I’m excited to take just a few minutes out of our schedule to talk to one of our favorite people in the industry, Mister Steve Ford.Steve has been a guy that I've known for a long time, was one of the people that I met moving to Nashville in the music business. And we've talked to a lot of people on the creative side so far but we haven't yet talked to anybody on the label side. So, you think of the guy that sits in a dark room with a suit in a corner office, that's this guy! Except for not, he actually sits in a what is a pretty awesome office, he's the general manager of a label company called Centricity Music; has been pretty massively successful in the past couple of years and really since they opened. But, he's a really great leader and speaks to what they look for in a good producer, in a good artist, in a good team member at their label.So, if you're wanting to get involved in the music industry, this is a great episode to listened to. I learned a ton and I think you will too.Chris: You know, being a podcast junky, it's nice to meet a fellow podcast enthusiast as well. We had some great conversations in the episode but also talked a lot about our favorite podcasts on and off the mic. He's just a great guy, great to get to know him and I really appreciate Seth you setting this up. Another great interview and I can't wait to listen to it.Seth: And you can check out his company at centricitymusic.com. They have a lot of great artists that I think you'll dig.Audio clip commencesHey podcast listeners, something is coming February 1st 2016. Have you ever thought about a career in song writing or music production? We have created a couple courses with you guys in mind. We've been getting a lot of feedback on people wanting to know more about how to become a song worker; how to become a professional music producer or engineer. These courses were designed to answer some of those questions. Go to fullcirclemusic.org and sign up there for more information.Audio clip endsChris: You were saying earlier before we started rolling that you were a podcast guy.Steve: Oh yeah, big podcast guy.Chris: And, you've heard this podcast before?Steve: Yeah. I've listened to the first three.Chris: Okay. So, can I ask you to go out on a limb and give us a grade so far?Steve: You know what? I'd give them a solid B+. I want them longer. That's my thing; I want to go into the background. I want to hear when you did Brown Banishers which is funny because I've worked a lot with Brown but you didn't get past Amy Grant.Seth: Sure.Steve: I mean, this is the guy who worked with from everybody from Third Day to Mercy Me to Why Heart, he's done everybody like come one there are stories there. I tell people I'm on the corporate side because of Brown Banisher because of how he worked. I was an engineer in LA for ten years and he would come out and mix records with us, it was at a little place called Mama Joes and I would see him on the phone going, “Happy birthday sweetie.” Later knowing that it was Ellie; missed her first walk and all of these other things. And when my daughter was born, I was like, I can't do this. I needed a life and so I started praying and Peter York calls. So it’s because of him so it's fun to hear some his stories. I did a lot of records win Jack Joseph Puig and–Seth: And you were engineering at the time?Steve: Yeah. I was an engineer at LA.Seth: And at the time that was really engineering?Steve: Oh my gosh.Seth: You were cutting tape and…Steve: Yeah! I've cut a lot of two inch tape, quarter inch tape, half inch–Seth: Stuff that I hope to never do.Steve: You don't have to, Jericho does it for you.[Laughter] Seth: I don't know if Jericho has ever cut tape? In school he did.Steve: Now, I feel really old.Chris: Is that kind of like when you're in a biology class and not in any other time of your life will you need to dissect a frog but you just have to do it for the experience of it. Is that what it's become cutting tape?Steve: I don't know if you have to do it even that. It's sort of like this legend of starting a fire with flint, you know? It's sort of like, “Yeah. I used to cut tape.”[Laughter] Seth: I mean there's probably a resurgence. I would imagine knowing the process of what coffee has become and how artists.Steve: Yeah.Seth: I think there's a big thing in maybe it's the millennial generation or whatever it is but I think people are drawn back to slower, older more hands on processes it seems like than just pushing the button or going through the drive through–Steve: And somethings, don't you think, in some things its like just give me the button. Give me the filter on Instagram.Seth: That is true! That's true but then you've got the whole wave of people roasting their own coffee beans now and then they're grinding the with a hand grinder, and then they're putting in a… And, I'm saying this because we have like three artists that we work with; that come in and they bring their whole coffee apparatus.Steve: And they measure how much coffee goes in, weigh it?Chris: Yeah.Steve: My son has one of those has a scale that weighs, how much coffee goes in. Oh yeah just …Chris: Yeah, I thought you were going to say some of the artists that you work with, they actually bring their own barista in the studio because–Steve: I'm sure that will happen.Seth: That’s kind of a prerequisite to be in a band. There has to be at least one barista.Steve: True.Seth: In the band.Steve: There has to be one business guy in every band and one guy who can make great coffee.Seth: And then the guy who can actually play the instruments.Steve: Yeah. Then the artist.[Laughter]Chris: And then the fourth guy on base who just knows how to shape everybody's beards. He's more of a grooming guy.Seth: And sometime there's a drummer.[Laughter] Steve: You don't need a drummer; there are machines for that now.[Laughter] Seth: Yeah. I mean, just take us through a little bit of your journey, you started in L.A.?Steve: I was born and raised in L.A.; read an article when I was 14 years old about this guy named Sir George Martin. And I was like, “What? You can do that for a living?”Seth: Who is George Martin?Steve: He produced this little band called the Beatles, probably never heard of…most 20 year olds haven't heard of them so…Chris: And then isn't true that he went on from there to write The Game of Thrones?Steve: Did he? I'm not a Game of Throne person–Chris: Okay that's R.R. Martin, sorry.Steve: Wrong one. But I mean, you read about these guys and you sort of open a door into a new world that you didn't know existed. And so, I was 18 years old, junior out of high school walked into the recording studios and started from there.Seth: So, you didn't wait to have some sort of a college thing to get internships?Steve: My mom was like Reeds parents which was like, “That’s a nice hobby but let's make sure you have a backup plan, a plan B.” And so, I still went to school, I still went to college did all of that. Don't ask me my grade point average because I was going home at 4 o'clock in the morning, waking up at 8 to crawl into my first class, it was terrible. But yeah, my first job in the recording studio, I was making $500 a month from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock in the morning.Seth: Living in L.A?Steve: Living in L.A.Seth: And that probably paid for a tenth of the rent?Steve: Maybe.Chris: Or, just the gas to get around?Steve: But I loved every second of it. And then from there you sort of work your way up. So, I did that… Like I said earlier my daughter was born and I was like an engineer’s life is a hard life in LA especially. Those were the days when you'd pay $1,500 a day block booking a studio; you booked a studio and you're paying $1,500 if your there six hours or eight there 24 hours. And a lot of them stayed 24 hours, and you just have next, next, next, next.Chris: And you've got to be the first guy there.Steve: First guy there, last guy out, yeah. You're sitting there winding tables at 6 o'clock in the morning going, “I just want to go home.”Chris: When the bug caught you, from that point until the time that you walked into that first studio and got a job, what skills were you harnessing?Steve: None.Chris: Just reading liner notes?Steve: Yeah. Lying in the floor, reading and going, there's one in North Hall and I'd write it down on a piece of paper because I grew up in the San Fernando Valley and start looking for them. Hey man that where Bill [inaudible 8:50] studio is or whatever the studio was and start. There wasn't really a whole lot you can do to prepare for it. It's no like in high school you go, “I wonder what class…”  I was in all the choirs and all the music stuff and that didn't prepare you for it. Probably the greatest skills for a studio engineer especially a starting one is being attentive, being hungry, being prepared and that depends on who you're working with.When you working together with somebody so well, I'm sure you and your team, they know what you want in advance and plugin something in before you even have to ask, that’s just working together. I've told a lot of wannabe engineers who want to go to some of these very expensive schools, don’t do it. Take that money, live on it for two years and go give yourself away for free for two years. You learn more two years in a studio than you will however long you go to one of the expensive ones.Chris: Yeah.Steve: It's just doing it. Just aligning the tape machine which is once again, it's like starting fire with flint again, knowing the lines taped but you learn by doing that.Chris: Absolutely.Steve: You learn by making a lot of mistakes. I recorded a lot of bad drum sounds.[Laughter] It just happened and then you go, “Oh if I do this, its better.” And 10,000 hours man, it takes 10,000 hours.Chris: Again, I think that it's not that schooling is necessarily a bad thing but the way that you learn in life versus the way that you learn in a classroom is different because for the most part, a classroom will deduct points for the stakes and if you’re in the–Steve: That's true. Good point.Chris: Yeah. I heard that -actually going back to our love of podcasts here- I heard Tim Farris on his podcast talking about the fact that he was going to go to, was considering something like Princeton or Harvard or something to go get his MBA. And he thought instead of doing that -or maybe this was advice given to him and he took it- instead of taking that couple hundred thousand dollars worth of whatever I needed to go get my MBA. I'm going to invest that in myself, very similar to what you're saying. And I'm going to use that to live on so that way I can go and I can intern for that company that I would never be able to if the money mattered that much. Because once you get out of school its like, “Oo I've got to go do something with this.” But if you've got the money set aside to go get the MBA anyway, it goes a long way to really feeling free to not have to pay that rent or pay that car payment that you could really dive in.Steve: And most people never use their college education for what they use. I had a meteorologist specialist. She had a degree in meteorology for TV and she was my marketing assistant. And you go, “I want to see what you spent four years doing versus what's your grade point average or what's you major.” I don't care about that stuff.Seth: So to fast forward to today, you are general manager of a very successful record label. When you got to hire somebody to your team, do you even say, “Hey, send in your resume. Where did you go to college?” Or does that not even cross your mind?Steve: I do want to see that. Four years in college gives me the impression that they follow through, they finish. You’ve said it before, finishing is such a hard art in today's world. To have somebody who finished is very valuable. Do I care about your grade point average? No. Do I even care about your major? No. Because if you have the right work ethic and the right heart, I can train you to do other things but I want to see how hard you're willing to work.Seth: So, a college degree still carries some weight but maybe it doesn't carry the weight that people think it does in terms of having the training because you kind of have to relearn it all when you get out into the real world.Steve: Exactly. Most college students that I see haven't learned anything that’s a really good use at a record label. My last five hires at Centricity have all come from internships. Now, I've had a lot of bad interns. I've wanted to fire a couple of interns, that's pretty bad when you want to fire somebody who works for free.Seth: What defines a good intern and what defines a bad intern?Steve: A bad intern sits on Facebook until you give them something to do and then they do exactly just to the letter of the law of what you asked them to do, hand it in to you and then get back on Facebook. A great intern does what you do and says, “Hey and I thought about this. And what about this more?” You give them to go to D and they go to G; then you give them to G and they go to S. I have a girl in my office, I asked her to do one thing and she says “Oh by the way while I was thinking about it I did these other three things that will help you out.” That type of proactivity and thinking ahead is so incredibly valuable. Like having somebody patching in your compressor before you ask for it. They know where you're going so fast that they're working ahead of you. And for all of those out there, that's old school once again patch bays.[Laughter]Seth: We have a small patch bay, we have two patch bays actually so we're probably on the old school end of things.Chris: It looks very cool though. It's looks kind of old science fiction movie.Steve: Spaghetti.[Laughter] Seth: It's like a telephone operator kind of thing. I heard a thing on…man, we keep talking about podcast, we're all just podcasts nerds, dude. I think that’s what we do for a living is listen to podcasts. And I heard one last night, they did a study of millennials; if you had a dream job, pick out of these choices what would be your dream job. Number one was the president; number two was a senator; number three was a successful athlete; number four foreign diplomat; five was a CEO of Apple; and then the last choice was the personal assistant to a famous actor or athlete. And 45% I think picked that one, hands down.Steve: They have no idea what that job looks like.Seth: They don't but it also speaks to they don't want to take the responsibility. Like, when you're that person, when you're the boss, they want to have a boss and maybe you can speak to a little bit to that but I feel like when you were talking about the internships, the ones who go above and beyond are the ones who are willing to take some responsibility and say, “Here's an idea” and just put it out there. How many interns would you have to get, to get that one good one?Steve: Probably 10 to 15.Seth: 10 to 15 to 1?Steve: Yeah, to 1. I think that’s what it is.Chris: Wow.Steve: Yeah, that's what it is. And I heard you, I think we had the conversation, there's such a different work ethic in today's young adults. And part of it is my fault, I'm a parent of a young adult they've been given everything in their whole life, they haven't had to work for anything. You want that iPhone! Here's that iPhone. You want that? Here's that. The art and the craft of working, the labor of getting something is a lost art, I think.Seth: So, would you go back and do those things differently?Steve: For my kids? My kids had to work.[Laughter]Seth: So, you weren't saying from my experience, you weren't–Steve: I’m saying that personally and much more of…[Laughter]What we made our kids do is like when they wanted that $100 American girl doll is you buy half, we’ll buy half. And all of a sudden they're digging out rocks in the backyard at $1 a bucket out of the garden. Because you want to give your kids what the value of work is and that's that doll at the end.In our world, I sat with an intern once and he was irritating everybody in the office. He's that guy who only asks questions because he wanted to tell you how much he knew. An intern needs to be quite and listen because there's a lot of information that flows around… And then they find the person that they can go to and go, what did that mean when he said this? So, what did that mean or… Come to me! I've told everyone in my internship, feel free to come to me and say, what does it mean when you said that? Versus this guy would come to you and tell you everything he knew. So, I was sitting him down one day and going,  “Man, you're irritating everybody. The whole office wants to prove you wrong.”Seth: You literally said that?Steve: I said that to him and later on, “I know I do that. I'm just trying to figure out where I fit and trying to find a job make $100, $120,000 a year and start in the music industry.” And I said, “You're in the wrong industry, man.”Seth: Go into finance!Steve: Go into finance, or go be an architect somewhere I guess or something. It was just about wanting to make as much money as his dad did, now! This generation wants to start where their parents have gotten to right now. I've seen it with artists, I've seen it with interns–Chris: They don't want a drop in their lifestyle that they've become accustomed to.Seth: A luxury once had, becomes a necessity.Steve and Chris: Ooohh.Steve: Very nice.Seth: And I'm very guilty of that. You fly first class once and you feel like a swine by sitting in coach.[Laughter] Steve: I've flown private jets twice in my whole life, in my whole career both times sort of accidentally. And man, once you do a private jet and you don't have to go through security and you’re just like, “Oh, I want that.” I say this all the time about artists. The worst thing you can do for an artist is start them touring in a bus because that's the expectation and then you know what happens? Is they got on the bus and they’re, “This isn't a very nice bus.” There are people in vans like when you were out in a van, to be on a bus, to be able to sleep horizontally would be the greatest thing ever and just because you started at this place and then you get into private jets. Everybody needs to start their first tour in a Silverado truck and then the next one to a bigger–Seth: Graduate to a suburban!Steve: A suburban would be great, then a 15 passenger old church van that you bought for $5,000 that the left side of the speakers don't work. And then, you work your way into a [inaudible 19:58] van and then into a bus. Then you're grateful for everything that's better along the way.Seth: It's more about the process than anything.Steve: Yeah.Seth: And getting there.Steve: A wise manager once said, his job is to make his artists life better every year, just a little bit better. I'm like, that's a good goal. That's a good goal to have.Seth: It is. So, your transition, we shipped about 20 years–Steve: We skipped through it very fast.[Laughter] Your transition from doing that 6pm to 3 in the morning thing in LA, you had your baby…Steve: Yep. My wife and I were praying at that point going, “God, please give us some sane clients or open another door.” And I just worked probably two months before with Peter York–Seth: And for those out there listening, was this at a record label you got your first…Steve: I was working with Peter in the studio and he called me up and said, “Hey, are you interested in A&R?” And I started in A&R in Sparrow…what's that 87, 88? Right around there and we were still in Chatsworth, California, spent time out there with him. So, I’ve been at Sparrow, moved from Sparrow to Star Songs and then back to Sparrow when they came up. Started in A&R worked my way into the marketing side, artist development side… So, yes back to Sparrow went to  Mer and worked my way up to Vice President at marketing at Mer, was general manager at [inaudible 21:34], general manager at SRI and now general manager at Centricity.Chris: Wow.Steve: It's been a long journey. If you’d ask me to 25 or 30 years ago, were you going to be general manager at Record Label? I would have laughed in your face.[Laughter]Chris: Because you didn't think it was attainable or because you didn't want have this job?Steve: That was not the path I was on. I thought, I was going to be producing records and engineering records.  Jack Pueg is still mixing great great records out there and I thought I was going to follow that path. God had something very different in mind which makes me laugh going I was talking to [inaudible 22:09] this morning and I can't believe I’ve been doing this, this long. When you're now an industry veteran it means that you've been around a long time.Seth: But I don't think looking back and I don’t want to put words in your mouth but you don't strike me as one of those people that's looking back and feeling like you’re working in the corporate side of the industry because you never made it on the creative side.Steve: No, no.Seth: You don't strike me as that at all.Steve: I made that decision for my family. What's funny is I've learned more about engineering and more about mixing and more about mastering being on the corporate side of what we're trying accomplish and why trying to do what we're doing. I learned so much about that. And for the first year or so, I was mad at God going, “Why did I just spend 9, 10 years in studios, in dark rooms working long hours if this is where you wanted me?” But realize, every day of my life in the last 27 years in the corporate side I've used information I learned in the studio. Sometimes we can't ask God why until you're 20 years down and you go, “oh I get it.”It's the path he puts us on, he brings people in and out of your life. I remember a girl over at Sparrow she was an accountant, that was her thing she loved accounting and God put me with her to learn that whole budgeting, it was only like for four months and then we were separated again but once again she changed my perspective and my life for the next 20 years. So, you don't know if these people that are coming in and out of your life are for a short period of how they're going to impact you.But yeah, I've sort of worked my way, I was one of the strange guys everybody wants to be in A&R. I started in A&R and left to got to marketing and then got back into it as I moved back up into the but everybody wants to be an A&R guy, hang out in the studios and have dinner with the artists which is not what an A&R guy does.Chris: Well it's the perception out there–Steve: Yeah, exactly, that's what they think.Chris: Just like you saying the artist is going to be in private jets.Seth: And for honestly if somebody's out there, can you break down what exactly what it is A&R. What is that? What is that job?Steve: A&R, we [inaudible 24:27] airports and restaurants which is [inaudible 24:28].[Laughter]It’s artist and repertoire. It’s basically looking for artist, finding people that have a seedling of something. Sometimes you don’t know what it is. We’ve all got our standards of what we feel like will lead to success. But finding that, nurturing it, grooming it, it’s sort of the mustard seed put into the ground, pat around and hopefully something really great grows out of it. Sometimes the plants don’t live, sometimes they give up. But it basically the music made by the A&R guy, we have one of the best in the industry in Centricity. When he’s done, when the music is done, he hands the baton over to me, and I go everywhere from there. But it’s his job to make sure we have hits, we have songs that work for live or work on the radio, an artist that’s got uniqueness to him that fits differently than everything else in the market place and sometimes it’s just plain old dumb luck. We’ve got all those where we’re like, “We though this person had everything they needed, was need for success and it didn’t work, and this one over here it’s that seedling and it’s just growing like crazy.Seth: Yeah, sometimes you don’t know or probably more often than not, I would think.Steve: How many songs have you worked on and said, “Man, that’s the hit.” I have a memory of I will eat my shoe if this is not [inaudible 26:04][Laughter] I believe you owe me a shoe eaten.Seth: I’m wearing Nikes right now. I have a feeling that this material is not organic.Chris: I was going to say, whatever you choose make sure its biodegradable.Steve: I was going to send you a shoe after one particular sock.[Laughter]We’ve all got them dude.Seth: Oh yeah, totally. I think more often than not and it’s honestly becoming a theme on this show is, we’re all just kind of winging it we’re all just guessing. So, my question to that is, I mean, it sounds like there’s a lot of responsibility placed on the shoulders of an A&R person. They’re the one that’s finding and nurturing talent and ultimately seeing what songs make it on records.I think a lot of people listening in our podcast audience, we have a lot of producers and writers and people outside of the music industry but then there are also probably some people who are just wanting to get in on the music business side and people who maybe want to be in music marketing or be in music management or maybe do what you’re doing someday, run a record label. You said what you look for interns, what qualifies a person to be an A&R person?Steve: Wow. Interesting. There are a few A&R guys you should interview. A great A&R person is able to inspire an artist beyond what they’ve every thought they could do. A great A&R person knows how to get a good song to a great song. We’re no longer in a society that good is not good enough, it has to be great. A great A&R guy can go, “You know what? There are seedlings, there are moments in here that are really great.” But you’re missing the mark I these two or three places. And then, coming in and sitting side by side with a producer like you and making sure that… I think that I’m a big movie buff and A&R guy is sort of like an executive producer on a movie where you put the team together and then sort of let the team go make the music. So, it’s the right producer for the right, for the right song and for the right artists and then let them shine where they go. It’s very much putting the pieces together. They’re not usually playing the music, they’re not [inaudible 28:34] musicians, they have to have a really good song sense and I think one of the skills an A&R guy has to know is, it’s not about them. They’ve got to know their audience, know what they’re making for because all of us have a tendency to gravitate towards music that’s on the fringe because we listen to so much stuff that all of the stuff in the middle starts mucking up. There’s a big muck in the middle. So, “you know what I like? I like this thing way over here or way over there.” Where a normal consumer listens to 10 records a year, the middle is the sweet spot for them. So, an A&R guy that understands who he’s trying to record for is very important.Seth: That’s very good. And, you said that they have to have a great song sense, that is even a sticky situation because why is one person’s song sense better than the other? Is that determined by track record? And, if you’ve never done A&R before, how do you prove that, hey I know a hit when I hear one?Steve: You know what? Our history of…John Mays is a 25 years somebody took a chance on him 27 years ago and said “You’re a great musician on the road, let me bring you in here.” Part is the relationship, you know, can they sit and hang with an artist? You know, you’ve been in these mediums. Where it’s like can you move an artist from A to Z while making the artist think it’s their move? As a producer it’s the same skill set of can you get an artist to bend without knowing that they’re bending? Or being able to move–Seth: All the artists out there, they just had a–Steve: I know they had a convulsion.[Laughter]And all the producer are like, yeah![Laughter]But that’s part of it, of like how do you get a song… because you don’t want to tell an artist, “You know what? This song sucks.” You just want to say, “Let’s work on the chorus. The chorus isn’t paying off hard enough, let’s make it lift better. Let’s make it shine.” Whatever it may be, moving them away from, “I love this, this is my baby. It’s beautiful.” To let’s keep working on this song.Seth: So, it sounds like it maybe starts with who they are as a person. Are they a good hang? Are they a servant? And then, the music kind of just follows and that taste follows.Steve: Our young A&R guy over there, he went through our radio department so he was listening to radio hits, radio hits, radio hits. And part of it is… There’s marketing guy named Roy Williams, I went to a seminar with him and he said he has a friend that works at General Market Record Label to pick all the singles and I’m like, “How did you learn this?” And the guy basically said, “Since I was five years old, every week I’d get my allowance and I would go buy the number one song in America.” And so for his whole life, he poured into himself hits. This is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like, this is what a hit sounds like.Seth: That’s pretty good wisdom, right there.Steve: And so, at a certain point you go, you got to know our music, you got to listen to our music, you got to know what a hit sounds like. I’ve heard a lot of kids come though “I hate listening to Christian radio.” Then why do you listen to Christian music? How many people in country music go, “[inaudible 32:11] but I hate country music.” Get out! You’re not going to succeed.[Laughter]But they almost wear it as a banner that I hate Christian music in our market place. We have an open concept office and I’ll try to listen to two hours of Christian radio every day in my office. And if I’m listening to it, everybody in my office is listening to it too; more for this is what a hit sounds like, this is what radio sounds lie. If you’re trying to meet a need at radio and you don’t know what they’re playing, how can you meet the need? So…I digress, sorry.Seth: No, that’s gold. That’s all gold.Steve: I think you nailed it in your earlier podcast when you said, this is a servant industry. It really is. And in my life, it took me a lot of time to figure out what my calling was. I knew I wasn’t an artist but God, what does that mean? And I was walking through Exodus with my kids when they were very young and hit Exodus 17 where God say to Moses, they’re out of Egypt heading towards the Promised Land and they hit the Analcites, God calls Moses up to the hill top; arms up in the air he wins, arms down they lose. But what never caught to me until I was reading it, Moses took two people along with him Aaron and Hur and I love to say I am the Hur in the Moses’ life. It’s my job, what Hur was up there to do is to hold Moses’ arms up, that’s all he did. When Moses was weak, when Moses needed help, Hur held his hands up. That’s my calling be a servant, be there to hold your hands up. Some people know Aaron “Aaron, you know, Moses’ little brother.” No one knows who Hur is. If you’re okay standing, holding someone’s arms up and no one recognizes, you are created to be in the music industry. Because you’re not in to be the rock stars; we’re in the back of the room with our arms folded, looking at the person on stage going, “Yeah. I was there to hold their arms up.”Chris: That’s wise. One of my favorite movies is That Thing You Do, I don’t know if any of you have seen that.Steve: Yeah. I’m the guy that goes, “You look great in black.”[Laughter]Chris: Has anyone told you that?Steve: Yeah.Chris: But, one of my favorite characters in the movie, and they’re filled with them. Anybody out there that hasn’t seen it, it’s a great movie.Steve: Please, go see it.Chris: But there’s Horus who’s basically the A&R guy that sees them in–Steve: In the camper-[Laughter]Chris: Yeah, he lives in a camper and he’s essentially the A&R guy. But he sees them in a performance at an Italian restaurant or something and comes and buys their album and get’s them to sign a little deal. And then at the end, when they get signed to a major label and they’re going out to play these state fairs, Horus leaves and the main character drummer of the band says, “We don’t want you to leave.” And he goes, “My [inaudible 35:27] is done. I’ve done what I’m supposed to do.” And then move on to the next thing and so he wasn’t meant to ride that out the whole movie; he’s there for a specific piece to move it from A to C. He’s the B part of it, the Hur of that story so to speak.Steve: Nowadays, you’d call them just production deals. You start working with an unknown artist who has a little bit of talent, you start developing them and then you start shopping them to record labels. And then you go, my job here is done. They then take the baton and now try to make to a national artist. If you make 2 out of 20, 3 out of 20, you’re in great shape. You’re a hall of fame baseball player if you hit 3 out of 10. And you’re a hall of fame A&R guy if 3 out of your 10 are hit artists.It’s a cycle, you have the young artist going up; you have the artist at their peak; and then you have some that are on their way down. And you’ve got to keep that circle going because any artist that’s been at the top is going to be past its peak and slowly work its way down, and you got to have the new artist coming up behind to grow into. So it’s a continual cycle of in the music industry. The circle of life in music would be that.Chris: I had a mentor –Scott [inaudible 36:48] if you’re listening I’m about to talk about you- but he always talked about how life in the ministry or in a career is kind of like looking at life or the people that you interact is like a watching a parade go by. There are things that are right in front of you, there are things that you just saw, and there are things that are coming down. And to really appreciate what is happening in the parade you have to absorb it all. And so there’s a little bit of grabbing from each of those in order to get the full experience of it all.Steve: And the bigger what’s right in front of you, the bigger those artists are in front of you, sometimes you don’t have time to look behind and develop what’s behind and what happens is with a lot of these record labels and I’ve been at these where, man they’ve got the big, and they slowly slipping. The [inaudible 37:32] slowly start getting past their prime and they haven’t developed anything behind them and then you’re in trouble because you’ve got this machine you’ve got to feed and you haven’t created for the future, it’s only for the present.And so, every A&R guy wants to sing but some of the big labels, the big artists, the A’s are so big that’s all they’re paying attention to. We’ve all seen it, we’ve all seen artists where we say, “Man, they’re amazing” but they got lost in the shuffle and that’s the sadness. We forget that we’re playing with people’s lives, especially on the record label side their dreams.I signed this band at a label and they were 18 years old when I signed them and 21 years old when I had to drop them. So, their dreams had come true and shattered by the time they were 21. And it’s just hard when you start thinking about that stuff.Chris: That’s true. And if you think about it there are some people that are fortunate enough to have a full career in the music industry and there are some people that have a three year window kind of like a profession sports guy or those things. There’s a window and the once you pass it, yeah but the guy is only 24 and the band is only 21. What’s coming up for them?Steve: You know what, I think it’s a catalyst of those people leaving or burning out, is balance. You guys have said it; I can walk through a record label at 8 o’clock at night and I can tell you which employees will be gone in a year because they have nothing to put back into themselves. The music industry is a take industry, it just continues squeezing and it just wants more and more and more. If you have one they want five; if you have five we want ten; if we have ten we want twenty, and it’s never enough. My poor radio team goes, “Hey we got number one.” And I’m like, “Great. How do we keep it on number one for another week?” It’s never enough and so you continue squeezing out what this industry does, if you don’t have a ministry, if you don’t have a relationship, if you don’t have friends that give back to you that don’t care what you do  for a living and basically go, “Yeah, yeah. You do music, how are you?” You know, if there aren’t nursing students at the college that you got to that are your friends, you’re going to burn out.  Because there’s nothing giving back, there’s no one pouring into you. Sooner or later the candle ends, there’s no more fuel and it juts burns out.So, I try to keep my staff saying, I want you to go to concerts and date people and go home at 6 o’clock and have a life. Because if you don’t have a life you have nothing to come back when you come back tomo