Podcasts about j so

Locked in their cells for up to 22 hours a day, how are Britain's jailed climate activists coping with a life of inaction? In episode two of Committed, Rivkah and Clare follow the Just Stop Oil inmates to find out how they're adjusting. How does JSO prepare activists for incarceration? What's it really like inside […]

Join me for a conversation with USAF Col. (Ret.) Matt Yocum as we delve into his unique career trajectory, starting from his non-standard background in the Air Force's acquisition and engineering fields. Matt discusses his pivotal assignments, including his time in Israel as part of the Engineer and Scientist Exchange Program and later as an Air Force attaché, where he navigated through significant events like the Second Lebanon War. This episode also explores his role as a Commander's Action Group (CAG) director at CENTCOM, where he was instrumental in providing detailed and narratively rich reports on international engagements. Matt reflects on the importance of storytelling in military communication and its impact on effective diplomacy. The talk also covers his post-military career as a writer of comic books and graphic novels, highlighting his passion for the art form and his current projects, including a biographical graphic novel on a notable Pakistani figure. Throughout the episode, Matt emphasizes the significance of relationship-building, effective communication, and relentless helpfulness in both military and personal endeavors.   Links: www.Hangar19Consulting.com www.MattYocum.com Closet World Kickstarter   Books: The Twilight War by David Crist Brief by Joe McCormick Lawrence in Arabia by Scott Anderson The New Map by Daniel Jurgen Power Broker by Robert Caro The Years of Lyndon Johnson by Robert Caro The Vision by King, Waltaand Bellaire Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow by King, Evely and Lopes Pluto: Urusawa x Tekuza by Nagasaki and Urasawa Bone by Jeff Smith   Time Stamps: 00:00 Introduction and Disclaimers 00:46 Meet Colonel Matt Yocum 01:15 Colonel Yocum's Air Force Journey 01:59 The Engineer and Scientist Exchange Program (ESEP) 02:44 Life and Work in Israel 04:42 Challenges and Experiences in Israel 09:01 Language Learning and Cultural Insights 34:58 The Second Lebanon War 39:35 Observations and Responsibilities as an Attache 45:31 Career Transitions and Future Plans 50:37 Arrival in Amman, Jordan 50:46 The New Normal: ISIS Crisis 51:44 Embassy Life and Community 54:02 Building Relationships and Cooperation 55:19 Information Sharing and Collaboration 01:03:34 Training and Equipping the Jordanian Air Force 01:18:44 Commander's Action Group (CAG) Experience 01:37:51 Decision to Stay in CAG 01:39:06 Balancing Family and Duty 01:40:43 Returning to JSO and Preparing for Retirement 01:42:14 Final Assignment and Retirement Ceremony 01:45:37 Reflecting on a Military Career 01:47:30 Challenges and Triumphs in Promotions 01:55:37 Post-Military Career in Comics 02:02:18 The Art of Storytelling in Communication 02:14:07 Recommended Reads and Final Thoughts    

Tom MacWright is a prolific contributor in the geospatial open source community. He made geojson.io, Mapbox Studio, and was the lead developer on the OpenStreetMap editor. He's currently on the team at Val Town. In 2021 he bootstrapped a solo business and created the Placemark mapping application. He acquired customers and found steady growth but after spending two years on the project he decided it was financially unsustainable. He open sourced the code and shut down the business. In this interview Tom speaks candidly about why geospatial is difficult, chasing technical rabbit holes, the mental impact of bootstrapping, and his struggles to grow a customer base. If you're interested in geospatial or the good and bad of running a solo business I think you'll enjoy this conversation with Tom. Related Links Tom's blog Placemark Play Placemark GitHub Placemark archive geojson.io Valtown Datawrapper (Visualization tool) Geospatial Companies mentioned Mapbox ArcGIS QGIS Carto -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Introduction Jeremy: Today I'm talking to Tom MacWright. He worked at Mapbox as a, a very early employee. He's had a lot of experience in the geospatial community, the open source community. One of his most recent projects was a mapping project called Placemark he started and ran on his own. So I wanted to talk to Tom about his experience going solo and, eventually having to, shut that down. Tom, thanks for agreeing to chat today. Tom: Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:00:32] Tools and Open Source at Mapbox Jeremy: So maybe to give everyone some context on, what your background was before you started Placemark. Um, let's talk a little bit about your experience at, at Mapbox. What did you work on there and, and what would you say are like the big things you learned from that experience? Tom: Yeah, so if you include the time that I was at Development Seed, which essentially turned into Mapbox, I kind of signed the paper to get fired from Development Seed and hired at Mapbox within the same 20 seconds. Uh, I was there for eight and a half years. so it was a lifetime in tech years. and the company really evolved from, uh, working for Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and the World Bank and doing these small, little like micro websites to the point at which I left it. It had. Raised a lot of money, had a lot of employees. I think it was 350 or so when I left. and yeah, just expanded into a lot of different, uh, try trying to own more and more of the mapping stack. but yeah, I was kind of really focused on the creative and tooling side of it. that's kind of where I see a lot of the, the fun and programming is making these tools where, uh, they can give people the same kind of fun like interaction loop that programming has where you, you know, you do a little bit of math and you see the result and you're able to just play with, uh, what you're working on, letting people have that in other domains. so it was really cool to figure out how to get A map design tool where somebody changes the background color and it just automatically changes that in your browser. and it covered like data editing. It covered, um, map styling and we did, uh, three different versions of that tool over the years. and then Mapbox is also a company that was, it came from, kind of people who are working on the Howard Dean campaign. And so it was pretty ideological and part of the ideology was being pretty hardcore about open source. we hired a lot of people who were working on open source projects before and basically just paid them to work on the open source projects, uh, for their whole time there. And during my time there, I just tried to make as much of my work, uh, open as possible, which was, you know, at the time it was, it was pretty great. I think in the long term it's been, o open source has changed a lot. but during the time that we were there, we both kind of, helped things like leaflet and mapnik and openstreetmap, uh, but also made like some larger contributions to the open source world. yeah, that, that's kind of like the, the internal company facing side. And also like what I try to create as like a more of a, uh, enduring work. I think the open source stuff will hopefully have more of a, a long term, uh, benefit. [00:03:40] How open source has changed (value capture by large companies) Jeremy: When I was working on a project that needed offline maps, um, we couldn't use Google Maps or any of the, the other publicly available, cloud APIs. So yeah, we actually used a, a tool, called Tile Mill that I, I hadn't known that you'd worked on, but recently found out you did. So that actually let us pull in OpenStreetMap data and then use this style, uh, language called carto to, to basically let us choose what the colors would be and how the different, uh, the roads and the buildings would look. What's kind of interesting to me is that it being open source really let us, um, build something we otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. But like, at the same time, we also didn't pay Mapbox any money. (laughs) So I'm, I'm kind of curious, like, if it's changed, like what the thinking was in terms of, you know, we pay for people to build all these things. We make it open source. but then people may just not ever pay us, you know, for all these things we did. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the main thing that's changed since the era of tilemill is, the dominance of cloud platforms. Like back then, I think, uh, Mapbox was still using, we were using like a little bit of AWS but people were still just on like VPSs and, uh, configuring things in cPanel and sometimes even running their own servers. And the, the danger of people using the product for free was such a small thing for us. especially when tile Mill was also funded by the Knight Foundation, so, you know, that at least paid half of my salary for, or, well, sorry, probably, yeah, maybe half of my salary for the first year that I was there and half of three other people's salaries. but that, yeah, so like when we built Tile Mill, a few companies have really like built on those same tools. Uh, there's a company called Carto coincidentally, they had the same name as Carto CSS, and they built on a lot of the same stack they built on mapnik. Um, and it was, was... I mean, I'm not gonna say that it was all like, you know, sunshine and roses, but it was never a thing that we talked about in terms of like this being a brutal competition between us and these other startups. Mapbox eventually closed source some stuff. they made it a source available license. and eventually Mapbox Studio was a closed source product. Um, and that was actually a decision that I advocated for. And that's mostly just because at one point, Esri, Microsoft, Amazon, all had whitelisted versions of Mapbox code, which, uh, hurts a little bit on a personal level and also makes it pretty hard to think about. working almost like it. You don't want to go to your scrappy open source company and do unpaid labor for Amazon. Uh, you know, Bezos can afford to pay for the labor himself. that's just kind of my personal, uh, that I'm obviously, I haven't worked there in a long time, so I'm not speaking for the company, but that's kind of how it felt like. and it yeah, kind of changed the arithmetic of open source in this way that. It made it less fun and, more risky, um, for people I think. [00:07:11] Don't worry about the small free users Jeremy: Yeah. So it sounds like the thinking was if someone on a small team or an individual, they took the open source software and they used it for their own projects, that was fine. Like you expected that and didn't worry about it. It's more that when these really large organizations like a, a Microsoft comes in and, just like you said, white labels the software, and doesn't really contribute significantly back. That's, that's when it, the, the thinking sort of shifted. Tom: Yeah, like a lot of the people who can't pay full price in USD to use your product are great users and they're doing cool stuff. Like when I was working on Placemark and when I was like selling. The theme for my blog, I would get emails from like some kid in India and it's like, you know, you're selling this for a hundred dollars, which is a ton of money. And like, you know, why, why should I care? Why shouldn't I like, just send them the zip file for free? it's like nothing to me and a lot to them. and mapping tools are really, really expensive. So the fact that Mapbox was able to create a free alternative when, you know, ArcGIS was $500 a month sometimes, um, depending on your license, obviously. That's, that's good. You're always gonna find a way for, like, your salespeople are gonna find a way to charge the big companies a lot of money. They're great at that. Um, and that's what matters really for your, for the revenue. [00:08:44] ESRI to Google Maps with little in-between Jeremy: That's a a good point too about like the, my impression of the, the mapping space, and maybe this has changed more recently, but you had the, probably the biggest player Esri, who's selling things at enterprise prices and then there were, or there are like a few open source options. but they feel like the, the barrier to entry feels a little high. And so, and then I guess you have stuff like Google Maps, right? That's, um, that's very accessible, but it's pretty limited, so. There's this big gap, it feels like right between the, the Esri and the, the Google Maps and open source. It's, it's sort of like, there's almost like there's no sweet spot. guess May, maybe it's just because people's uses are so different, but I'm, I'm not sure, um, what makes maps so unique in that way Tom: Yeah, I have come to understand what Esri and QGIS do as like an extension of what CAD is like. And if you've used CAD software recently, it's just as crazy and as expensive and as powerful. and it's really hard to capture like the people who are motivated enough to make a map but don't want to go down the whole rabbit hole. I think that was one of the hardest things about Placemark was trying to be in the middle of those things and half of the people were mystified by the complexity and half the people wanted more complexity. Uh, and I just couldn't figure out how to get it to the right in between spot. [00:10:25] Placemark and its origins in geojson.io Jeremy: Yeah. So let's, let's talk a little bit about Placemark then, in terms of from its start. What was your, your goal with Placemark and, and what was the product itself? Tom: So the seed of the idea for Placemark, uh, is this website called geojson.io, uh, which is still around. And, Chris Fong (correction -- Whong) at, at Mapbox is still, uh, developing it. And that had become pretty useful for a lot of people who I knew in the industry who were in this position of managing geospatial data but not wanting to boot up ArcGIS uh, geojson.io is based on, I just tweeted, I was like, why? Why is there not a thing where you can edit data on a map and have a GeoJSON representation and just go Back and forth between the two really easily. and it started with that, and then it kind of grew to be a little bit more powerful. And then it was just a tool that was useful for everyone. And my theory was just that I wanted that to be more useful. And I knew just like anything else that you build and you work on for a long time, you know exactly how it could be so much better. And, uh, all the things that you would do better if you did it again. And I was, uh, you know, hoping that there was something where like if you make that more powerful and you make it something that's like so essential that somebody's using every day, then maybe there's some some value in that. And so Placemark kind of started as being like, oh, this is the thing where if you're tasking a satellite and you need a bounding box on a specific city, this is the easiest way to do that. Um, and it grew a little bit into being like a tool for collaborating because people were collaborating on it. And I thought that that would be, you know, an interesting thing to support. but yeah, I think it, it like tried to be in that middle of like, not exactly Google my Maps and certainly a lot, uh, simpler than, uh, QGIS or ArcGIS Jeremy: something I noticed, so I've actually used geojson.io as well when I was first learning how to put stuff on a map and learning that GeoJSON was a format that a lot of things were using, it was actually really helpful to, to be able to draw, uh, polygons and see, okay, this is how the JSO looks and all that stuff. And it was. Like just very simple. I think there's something like very powerful about, websites or applications like that where it, it does this one thing and when you go there, you're like, oh, okay, I, I, I know what I'm doing and it's, it's, uh, you know, it's gonna help me do the, this very specific thing I'm trying to do. [00:13:16] Placemark use cases (Farming, Transportation, Interior mapping, Satellite viewsheds) Jeremy: I think with Placemark, so, one question I would have is, you gave an example of, uh, someone, I think you said for a satellite, they're, are they drawing the, the area? What, what was the area specifically for? Tom: the area of interest, the area where they want the, uh, to point the camera. Jeremy: so yeah, with, with Placemark, I mean, were there, what were some of the specific customers or use cases you had in mind? 'cause that's, that's something about. Um, placemark as a product I noticed was it's sort of like, here's this thing where you can draw polygons put markers and there's all these like things you can do, but I think unless you already have the specific use case, it's not super clear, who uses it for what. So maybe you could give some examples of what you had in mind. Tom: I didn't have much in mind, but I can tell you what people, what some people used it for. so some of the more interesting uses of it, a bunch of, uh, farming oriented use cases, uh, especially like indoor and small scale farming. Um, there were some people who, uh, essentially had a bunch of flower farms and had polygons on the map, and they wanted to, uh, mark the ones that had mites or needed to be watered, other things that could spread in a geometric way. And so it's pretty important to have that geospatial component to it. and then a few places were using it for basically transportation planning. Um, so drawing out routes of where buses would go, uh, in Luxembourg. And, then there was also a little bit of like, kind of interesting, planning of what to buy more or less. Uh, so something of like, do we want to buy this tract of land or do we wanna buy this tract of land or do we wanna buy access to this one high speed internet cable or this other high speed internet cable? and yeah, a lot of those things were kind of like emergent use cases. Um, there's a lot of people who were doing either architecture or internal or in interior mapping essentially. Jeremy: Interior, you mean, inside of a building Tom: yeah. yeah. Jeremy: Hmm. Okay. Tom: Which I don't think it was the best tool for. Uh, but you know, people used it for that. Jeremy: Interesting. Yeah. I guess, would people normally use some kind of a CAD tool for that, or Tom: Yeah. Uh, there's CAD tools and there are a few, uh, companies that do just, there's a company that just does interior maps especially of airports, and that's their whole business model. Um, but it's, it's kind of an interesting, uh, problem because most CAD architecture work is done with like a local coordinate system, and you have like very good resolution of everything, and then you eventually place it in geo geospatial space. Uh, but if you do it all in latitude and longitude, you know, you're, you're moving a door and it's moving the 10th or 12th decimal point, and eventually you have some precision problems. Jeremy: So it's almost like if you start with latitude and longitude, it's hard to go the other way. Right? you have to start more specific and then you can move it into the, the geospatial, uh, area. Tom: Yeah. Uh, that's kind of why we have local projections for towns is that you can do a lot of work just in that local projection. And the numbers are kind of small 'cause your town's small, relatively. Jeremy: yeah, those are kind of interesting. So it sounds like just anytime somebody wants to, like you gave the example of transportation planning or you want to visually see where things are, like your crops or things like that, and that, that kind of makes sense. I mean, I think if you just think about paper maps, if somebody wants to sketch something out and, and sort of track the layout of something, this could serve the same purpose but be editable. and like you said, I think it's also. Collaborative so you can have multiple people editing the same, um, map. that makes sense. I think something that I believe I saw on your website is you said though that it was, it's like an editing tool, but it's not necessarily a visualization tool. Uh, I'm kind of curious what you, what you meant by that. [00:17:39] An editing tool that allows you to export data not a visualization tool Tom: Yeah, I, when you say a map, I think there's, people can interpret that as everything from raw data to satellite imagery and raster data. and then a lot of it is like, can I use this to make a choropleth map of the voter turnout in our, in my country? and that placemark did a little bit, but I think that it was, it was never going to be the, the thing that it did super well. and so, yeah, and also like the, the two things kind of, don't mesh all that well. Like if you have a scale point map and you have that kind of visualization of it and then you're editing the points at the same time and you're dragging around these like gigantic points because this point means a lot of population, it just doesn't really make that much sense. There are probably ways to square that circle and have different views, but, uh, I felt like for visualizations, I mean partly I just think data wrapper is kind of great and uh, I had already worked for observable at that point, which is also, which I think also does like great visualization work. Jeremy: Would that be the case of somebody could make a map inside a placemark and then they would take the GeoJSON and then import that into another visualization tool? Is that what you were kind of imagining people would do? Tom: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Jeremy: And I could see from the customer's perspective, a lot of them, they may have that end, uh, visualization in mind. So they might look for a tool that kind of just does both. Right. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Certain people definitely, wanted that. And yeah, it was an interesting direction to go down. I think that market was going to be a lot different than the people who wanted to manage and edit data. And also, I, one thing that I had in mind a lot, uh, was if Placemark didn't work out, how much would people be burned? and I think if I, if I built it in a way that like everyone was heavily relying on the API and embeds, people would be suffer a lot more, if I eventually had to shut it down. every API that you release is really a, a long-term commitment. And instead for me, like guilt wise, having a product where you can easily export everything that you ever did in any format that you want was like the least lock in, kind of. Jeremy: Yeah. And I imagine the, the scope of the project too, you're making it much smaller if you, if you stick to that editing experience and not try to do everything. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I, the scope was already pretty big. as you can tell from the open source project, it's, it's bigger than I wish it was. the whole time I was really hoping that I could figure out some niche that was much more compact. there's, I forget the name, but there's somebody who has a, an application that's very similar to Placemark in. Technical terms, but is just a hundred percent focused on planning septic systems. And I'm just like, if I just did this just for septic systems, like would that be a much, would that be 10,000 lines of code instead of 40,000 lines of code? And it would be able to perfectly serve those customers. but you know, that I didn't do enough experimentation to figure that out. Um, I, that's, I think one thing that I wish I had done a lot more was, pivot and do experiments. Jeremy: that septic example, do you know if it's a, a business in and of itself where it can actually support one person or a staff of people? Or is it, is that market just too small? Tom: I think it's still a solo bootstrapped project. yeah. And it's, it's so hard to tell whether a company's doing well or not. I could ask the person over DM. [00:21:58] Built the base technology before going public Jeremy: So when you were first starting. placemark. You were, you were doing it as a solo, developer. A solo entrepreneur, reallyyou worked on it for quite a while, I think before you announced, right? Like maybe a year or so? Tom: Yeah, yeah. Almost, almost a year, I think, maybe, maybe 10 months in the dark. Jeremy: I think that there's, there was a lot of overlap between the different directions that I would eventually go in and. So just building a collaborative editor that can edit map data fairly quickly and checks all the boxes of being able to import and export things, um, that is, was a lot of work. and I mean also I, I was, uh, freelancing during part of it, so it wasn't a hundred percent of my time. Tom: But that, that core, I think even now if I were to build something similar, I would probably still use that work. because that, whether you're doing the septic planning application or you're doing a general purpose kind of map editor or some kind of social application, a lot of that stuff will be in common. Um, and so I wanted to really get, like, to figure out that problem space and get a few solutions that I could live with. Jeremy: The base. libraries or technologies you were gonna pick to get the map and have the collaborative aspect. Those are all things you wanted to get settled first. And then you figured, okay, once I have this base, then I can go find the, you know, the, the, the customers or, or find the specifics of what I'm gonna build. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Jeremy: I I think you had said that going forward when you're gonna work on another project, you would probably still start the same way. [00:23:51] Geospatial is a tough industry, no public companies Tom: if I was working on a project in the geospatial space, I would probably heavily reference the work that I already did here. but I don't know if I'll go back to, to maps again. It's a tough industry. Jeremy: Is it because of the, the customer base? Is it because like people don't really understand the market in terms of who actually needs the maps? I'm kind of curious what you feel makes it tough. Tom: I think, well there are no, there are no public mapping companies. Esri is I think one of the 10 largest private companies in the us. but it's not like any of these geospatial companies have ever been like a pure play. And I think that makes it hard. I think maps are just, they're kind of like fonts in a way in which they are this. Very deep well of complexity, which is absolutely fascinating. If you're in it, it's enough fun and engineering to spend an entire career just working on that stuff. And then once you're out of it, you talk to somebody and you're just like, oh, I work on this thing. And they're like, oh, that you Google maps. Um, or, you know, I work at a font type like a, you know, a type factory and it's like, oh, do you make, uh, you know, courier in, uh, word. It's really infrastructure, uh, that we mostly take for granted, which is, that's, that means it's good in some ways. but at the same time, I, it's hard to really find a niche in which the mapping component is that, that is that useful. A lot of the companies that are kind of mapping companies. Like, I think you could say that like Strava and Palantir are kind of geospatial companies, both of them. but Strava is a fitness company and Palantir is a military company. so if you're, uh, a mapping expert, you kind of have to figure out what, how it ties into the real world, how it ties into the business world and revenue. And then maps might be 50% of the solution or 75% of the solution, but it's probably not going to be, this is the company that makes mapping software. Jeremy: Yeah, it's more like, I have this product that I'm gonna sell and it happens to have a map as a part of it. versus I'm going to sell you, tools that, uh, you know, help you make your own map. That seems like a, a harder, harder sell. Tom: yeah. And especially pro tools like the. The idea of people being both invested in terms of paying and invested in terms of wanting to learn the tool. That's, uh, that's a lot to ask out of people. [00:26:49] Knowing the market is tough but going for it anyways Jeremy: I think the things we had just talked about, about mapping being a tough industry and about there being like the low end is taken care of by Google, the high end is taken care of by Esri with ArcGIS. Uh, I think you mentioned in a blog post that when you started Placemark you, you, you knew all this from the start. So I'm kind of curious, like, knowing that, what made you decide like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for it and, you know, do it anyways. Tom: uh, I, well, I think that having seen, I, like I am a co-founder of val.town now, and every company that I've worked for, I've been pretty early enough to see how the sausage is made and the sausage is made with chaos. Like every company doesn't know what it's doing and is in an impossible fight against some Goliath figure. And the product that succeeds, if it ever does succeed, is something that you did not think of two or three years in advance. so I looked at this, I looked at the odds, and I was like, oh, these are the typical odds, you know, maybe someday I'll see something where it's, uh, it's an obvious open blue water market opportunity. But I think for the, for the most part, I was expecting to grind. Uh, you know, like even, even if, uh, the odds were worse, I probably would've still done it. I think I, I learned a lot. I should have done a lot more marketing and business and, but I have, I have no regrets about, you know, taking, taking a one try at solving a very hard to solve problem. Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point in that the, the odds, like you said, are already stacked against you. but sometimes you just gotta try it and see how it goes, Tom: Yeah. And I had the, like I was at a time where I was very aware of how my life was set up. I was like, I could do a startup right now and kind of burn money for a little while and have enough time to work on it, and I would not be abandoning an infant child or, you know, like all of the things that, all the life responsibilities that I will have in the near future. Um. So, you know, uh, the, the time was then, I guess, [00:29:23] Being a solo developer Jeremy: And comparing it to your time at Mapbox and the other startups and, and I suppose now at val.town, when you were working on Placemark, you're the sole developer, you're in charge of everything. how did that feel? Did you enjoy that experience or was it more like, I, I really wish I had other people to, you know, to kind of go through this with, Tom: Uh, around the end I started to chat with people who, like might be co-founders and I even entertained some chats with, uh, venture capital people. I am fine with the, the day to day of working on stuff alone of making a lot of decisions. That's what I have done in a lot of companies anyway. when you're building the prototype or turning a prototype into something that can be in production, I think that having, uh, having other people there, It would've been better for my mentality in terms of not feeling like it was my thing. Um, you know, like feeling detached enough from the product to really see its flaws and really be open to, taking more radical shifts in approach. whereas when it's just you, you know, it's like you and the customers and your email inbox and, uh, your conscience and your existential dread. Uh, and you know, it's not like a co-founder or, uh, somebody to work with is gonna solve all of that stuff for you, but, uh, it probably would've been maybe a little bit better. I don't know. but then again, like I've also seen those kinds of relationships blow up a lot. and I wanted to kind of figure out what I was doing before, adding more people, more complexity, more money into the situation. But maybe you, maybe doing that at the beginning is kind of the same, you know, like you, other people are down for the same kind of risk that you are. Jeremy: I'm sure it's always different trade offs. I mean, I, I think there probably is a power to being able to unilaterally say like, Hey, this is, this is what I wanna do, so I'm gonna do it. Tom: Yeah. [00:31:52] Spending too much time on multiplayer without a business case Jeremy: You mentioned how there were certain flaws or things you may not have seen because you were so in it. Looking back, what, what were some of those things? Tom: I think that, uh, probably the, I I don't think that most technical decisions are all that important, um, that it never seems like the thing that means life or death for companies. And, you know, Facebook is still on PHP, they've fought, fixed, the problem with, with money. but I think I got rabbit holed into a few things where if I had like a business co-founder, then they would've grilled me about like, why are we spending? The, the main thing that comes to mind, uh, is real time multiplayer, real time. It was a fascinating problem and I was so ready to think about that all the time and try to solve it. And I think that took up a lot of my time and energy. And in the long term, most people are not editing a map. At the same time, seeing the cursors move around is a really fun party trick, and it's great for marketing, but I think that if I were to take a real look at that, that was, that was a mistake. Especially when the trade off was things that actually mattered. Like the amount of time, the amount, the amount of data that the, that could be handled at. At the same time, I could have figured out ways to upload a one gigabyte or two gigabyte or three gigabyte shape file and for it to just work in that same time, whereas real time made it harder to solve that problem, which was a lot closer to what, Paying customers cared about and where people's expectations were? Jeremy: When you were working on this realtime collaborative functionality, was this before the product was public? Was this something you, built from the start? Tom: Yeah. I built the whole thing without it and then added it in. Not as like a rewrite, but like as a, as a big change to a lot of stuff. Jeremy: Yeah, I, I could totally see how that could happen because you are trying to envision people using this product, and you think of something like Google Docs, right? It's very powerful to be typing in a document and see the other cursors and, um, see other people typing. So, I could see how you, you would make that leap and say like, oh, the map should, should do that too. Yeah. [00:34:29] Financial pressures of bootstrapping, high COL, and healthcare Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, you know, Figma is very cool. Like the, it's, it's amazing. It's an amazing thing. But the Figma was in the dark for way longer than I was, and uh, Evan is a lot smarter than I was. Jeremy: He probably had a big bag of money too. Right. Tom: Yeah. Jeremy: I, I don't actually know the history of Figma, but I'm assuming it's, um, it's VC funded, right? Tom: Uh, yeah, they're, they're kind of famous for just having, I don't think they raised that much in the beginning, but they just didn't hire very much and it was just like the two co-founders, or two or three people and they just kept building for long time. I feel like it's like well over three years. Jeremy: Oh wow. Okay. I think like in your case, I, I saw a comment from you where you were saying, this was your sole source of income and you gotta pay for your health insurance, and so you have no outside investments. So, the pressures are, are very different I think. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And that's really something to on, to appreciate about venture capital. It gives you the. Slack in your, in your budget to make some mistakes and not freak out about it. and sadly, the rent is not going down anytime soon in, in Brooklyn, and the health insurance is not going down anytime soon. I think it's, it's kind of brutal to like leave a job and then realize that like, you know, to, to be admitted to a hospital, you have to pay $500 a month. Jeremy: I'm, I'm sure that was like, shocking, right? The first time you had to pay for it yourself. Tom: Yeah. And it's not even good. Uh, we need to fix this like that. If there's anything that we could do to fix entrepreneurship in this country, it's just like, make it possible to do this without already being wealthy. Um, it was, it was a constant stress. [00:36:29] Growth and customers Jeremy: As you worked on it, and maybe especially as you, after you had shipped, was there a period where. You know, things were going really well in terms of customers and you felt like, okay, this is really gonna work. Tom: I was, so, like, I basically started out by dropping, I think $5,000 in the business bank account. And I was like, if I break even soon, then I'll be happy. And I broke even in the first month. And that was amazing. I mean, the costs were low and everything, but I was really happy to just be at that point and that like, it never went down. I think that probably somebody with more, uh, determination would've kept going after, after I had stopped. but yeah, like, and also The people who used Placemark, who I actually chatted with, and, uh, all that stuff, they were awesome. I wish that there were more of them. but like a lot of the customers were doing cool stuff. They were supportive. They gave me really informative feedback. Um, and that felt really good. but there was never a point at which like the, uh, the growth scale looked like, oh, we're going to hit a point at which this will be a sustainable business within a year. I think it, according to the growth when I left it, it would've been like maybe three years until I would've been, able to pay my rent and health insurance and, live a comfortable life in, in New York. Jeremy: So when you mentioned you broke even that was like the expenses into the business, but not for actually like rent and health insurance and food and all that. Okay. Okay. can you say like roughly how much was coming in or how many customers you had? Tom: Uh, yeah, the revenue initially I think was, uh, 1500 MRR, and eventually it was like 4,000 or so. Jeremy: And the growth was pretty steady. [00:38:37] Bootstrapping vs fundraising Tom: Um, so yeah, I mean, the numbers where you're just like, maybe I could have kept going. but it's, the other weird thing about VCs is just that I think I have this rich understanding of like, if you're, if you're running a business that will be stressful, but be able to pay your bills and you're in control of it, versus running a startup where you might make life changing money and then not have to run a business again. It's like the latter is kind of better. Uh, if stress affects you a lot, and if you're not really wedded to being super independent. so yeah, I don't know between the two ways of like living your life, I, I have some appreciation for, for both. doing what Placemark entailed if I was living cheaply in a, in a cheap city and it didn't stress me out all the time, would've been a pretty good deal. Um, but doing it in Brooklyn with all the stress was not it, it wasn't affecting my life in positive ways and I, I wanted to, you know, go see shows at night with my friends and not worry about the servers going down. Jeremy: Even putting the money aside, I think that's being the only person responsible for the app, right? Probably feels like you can't really take a vacation. Right. Tom: Yeah, I did take a vacation during it. Like I went to visit my partner who was in, uh, Germany at the time, and we were like on a boat, uh, between Germany, across the lake to Switzerland, and like the servers went down and I opened up my laptop and fixed the servers. It's just like, that is, it's a sacrifice that people make, but it is hard. Jeremy: There's, there's on call, but usually it's not just you 24 7. Tom: Yeah. If you don't pick up somebody else [00:40:28] Financial stress and framing money spent as an investment Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess at what point, because I'm trying to think. You started in 2021 and then maybe wrapped up, was it sometime in 2024? Tom: Uh, I took a job in, uh, I, I mean I joined val.town in the early 2023 and then wrapped up in November, 2023. Jeremy: At what point did you really start feeling the, the stress? Like I, I imagine maybe when you first started out, you said you were doing consulting and stuff, so, um, probably things were okay, but once you kind of shifted away from that, is that kind of when the, the, the worries about money started coming in? Tom: Yeah. Um, I think maybe it was like six or eight months, um, in. Just that I felt like I wasn't finding, uh, like a, a way to grow the product without adding lots of complexity to it. and being a solo founder, the idea of succeeding, but having built like this hulking mess of a product felt just as bad as not succeeding. like ideally it would be something that I could really be happy maintaining for the long term. Uh, but I was just seeing like, oh, maybe I could succeed by adding every feature in QGIS and that's just not, not a, not something that I wanted to commit to. but yeah, I don't, I don't know. I've been, uh, do you know, uh, Ramit Sethie he's like a, Jeremy: I don't. Tom: an internet money guy. He's less scummy than the rest of them, but still, I. an internet money guy. Um, but he does adjust a lot of stuff about like, money psychology. And that has made me realize that a lot of what I thought at the time and even think now is kind of a rational, you know, like, I think one of the main things that I would do differently is just set a budget for Placemark. Like if I had just set away, like, you know, enough money to live on for a year and put that in, like the, this is for Placemark bucket, then it would've felt better to me then having it all be ad hoc, month to month, feeling like you're burning money instead of investing money in a thing. but yeah, nobody told me, uh, how to, how to think about it then. Uh, yeah, you only get experience by experiencing it. Jeremy: You're just seeing your, your bank account shrinking and there's this, psychological toll, right? Where you're not, you're not used to that feeling and it, it probably feels like something's wrong, Tom: Yeah, yeah. I'm, I think it, I'm really impressed by people who can say, oh, I invested, uh, you know, 50 or a hundred thousand dollars into this business and was comfortable with that risk. And like, maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you just like threw a lot of money down into that. and the people, I think with the healthy, productive, uh, relationship with it. Do think of it as like, oh, I, I paid for kind of a bet on a risk. and that's, that's what I was doing anyway. You know, like I was paying my rent and my health insurance and spending all my time working on the product instead of paying, uh, freelance work. but if you don't frame it that way, it doesn't feel like an investment. It feels like you're making a risky gamble. Jeremy: Yeah. And I think that makes sense to, to actually, I think, like you were saying, have a separate account or a separate thing set aside where you are like, this is, this is this money for this purpose. And like you said, look at it as an investment, which with regular investments can go down. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Jeremy: Yeah [00:44:26] In hindsight might have raised money or tried smaller bets Jeremy: Were there, there other things, whether technical or or business wise, that, that if you were to to do it again, you would do differently? Tom: I go back and forth on whether I should have raised venture capital. there are, there's kind of a, an assumption in venture capital that once you're on it, you have to go the whole way. You have to become a billion dollar company, uh, or at least really tell people that you're going to be a billion dollar company and I am not. yeah, I, I don't know. I've seen, I've seen other companies in my space, or like our friends of my current company who are not really targeting that, or ones who were, and then they had somewhere in between the billion dollar and the very small outcome. Uh, and that's a little bit of a point in the favor of accepting a big pile of money from the venture capitalists. I'm also a little bit biased right now because val.town has one investor and he's like the, the best venture capitalist that I have ever met. Big fan. don't quote me on that. If he sacks me in like a year, we'll see. Um, but uh, yeah, there, I, I think that I understand more why people take that approach. or I've understood more why people take like the venture capital but not taking $300 million from SoftBank approach. yeah, and I don't know, I think that, trying a lot of things also seems really appealing. Uh, people who do the same kind of. of Maybe 10 months, but they build four or five different products or three different products instead of just one. I think that, that feels, feels like a good idea to me. Jeremy: And in doing that, would that be more of a, like as a solo entrepreneur or you, you're thinking you would take investment and then say, I'm gonna try all these things with, with your money. Tom: Oh, I've seen both. I, that I, yeah, one friend's company has pivoted like four times between very different ideas and yeah, it, it's one way to do it, but I think in the long term, I would want to do that as a solo developer and try to figure out, you know, something. but yeah, I, I think, uh, so much of it is mindset, that even then if I was working on like three different projects, I think I. My qualifications for something being worth, really adopting and spending all my time doing, you just have to accept, uh, a lot of hits and a lot of misses and a lot of like keeping things alive and finding out how to turn them into something. I am really inspired by my friends who like started around the same time that I did and they're not that much further in terms of revenue and they're like still, still doing it because that is what they want to do in life. and if you develop the whole ecosystem and mindset around it, I think that's somewhere that people can stay and, and be happy. just trying to find, trying to find a company that they own and control and they like. Jeremy: While, while making the the expenses work. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. that's the, that's the hard part, like freelancing on the side also. I probably could have kept that up. I liked my freelance clients. I would probably still work with them as well. but I kind of just wanted the, I wanted the focus, I wanted the motivation of, of being without a net. Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, energy wise, do you think that that would've worked? I mean, I imagine that Placemark took a lot of your time when you were working full time, so you're trying to balance, you know, clients and all your customers and everything you're doing with the software. It just feels like it might be a lot. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe with different freelance clients. I, I loved my freelance clients because I, after. leaving config. I, I wanted to work on climate change stuff and so I was working for climate change foundations and that is not the way to max out your paycheck. It's the way to feel good about your conscience. And so I still feel great about those projects, but in the future, yeah, I would probably just work for, uh, you know, a hedge fund or something. [00:49:02] Marketing to developers but not potential customers Jeremy: I think something you mentioned in one of your posts is that you maybe could have spent more time or had a different approach with marketing. Maybe you could kind of say what you did do and then what maybe worked and what didn't. Tom: Yeah. So I like my sweet spot is writing documentation and blog posts and technical stuff. And so I did a lot of that and a lot of that like worked in a way that didn't matter. I am at this point, weirdly good at writing stuff that gets on Hacker News. I've written a lot of stuff that's gotten to the top of Hacker News and unfortunately, writing about your technical approach and your geospatial project for handling errors, uh, in your JavaScript code is not really a way to get customers. and I think doing a lot of documentation was also great, but it was also, I think that the, the thing that was missing is the thing that I think Mapbox does fairly well now, in which the homepage really pushes you toward use cases immediately. and I should have been saying to each customer who had anything compelling as a use case, like, let's write an article about you and what you're doing, and here's how you use this in your industry. and that probably would've also been like a good, a good way to figure out which of those verticals was the one that was most worth spending all the time on. yeah. So it, it was, it was a lot of good marketing to nerds. and it could have been better in terms of marketing to actual customers and to people who are making the buying decisions. Jeremy: Yeah. Looking at the, the Placemark blog, I can definitely see how as a developer, a lot of the posts are appealing to me, right? It's about how you worked on a technical challenge or decisions you made, but maybe less so to somebody who they wanna. Draw a map to manage their crops. They're like, I don't care about any of this. Right. Tom: Yeah, like the Mapbox blog used to be, just all that stuff as well. We would write about designing protocol buffer layouts, and it was amazing for hiring and amazing for getting nerds in the door. But now it's just, Toyota is launching with, Mapbox Maps or something like that. And that's, that's what you, you should do if you're trying to sell a product. Jeremy: Yeah. And I think the, the sort of technical aspect, it makes sense too. If you're venture funded and you are looking to hire, right? You wanna build your team and you just want to increase like, the amount of stuff you're building and not worrying so much about, am I gonna have a paycheck next Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just kind of do it because it's fun, which is not the right reason to do it, but, Yeah, I mean, I still write my blog mostly just because it's, it's a fun thing to do, but it's not the best way to, um, to run a business. Jeremy: Yeah. Well, the fun part is important too though. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's maybe the whole thing. May, that's maybe the most important thing, but you can't do it if you don't do the, the money part. [00:52:35] Most customers came from existing audience Jeremy: Right. So the people who did find you, was it mostly word of mouth from people who did identify with the technical posts, or were there places that surprised you, that people found you? Tom: Uh, a lot of it was people who were familiar with the Mapbox ecosystem or with, with me. and then eventually, yeah, a few of the users came in through, um, through Hacker News, but it was mostly, mostly word of mouth also. The geospatial community is like fairly tight and it's, and it's not too hard to be the person who writes the article about some geospatial challenge that everyone finds. Jeremy: Hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point about like being in that community, especially since you've done so much work in geospatial and in open source that you have this little, this built-in audience, I guess. Tom: yeah. Which I appreciate. It makes me nervous, but yeah. [00:53:43] Val.town marketing to developers Jeremy: Comparing that to something like val.town, how is val.town marketing? How is it finding users? 'cause from what I can tell, it's, it's getting a lot of, uh, a lot of people coming in, right? Tom: Yeah. Uh, well, right now our, our kind of target user, or the user that we think of is a hobbyist, is somebody who's, sometimes a pro developer or somebody, sometimes just somebody who's really interested in the field. And so writing these things that are just about, you know, programming, does super well. Uh, but it, we have exactly the same problem and that that is kind of being revamped as we speak. uh, we hired somebody who actually knows marketing and has a good sense for it. And so a lot of that stuff is shifting to show you what you can do with val.town because it, it suffers from the same problem as well. It's an empty text field in which you can type, type script, code, and it runs. And knowing what you can do with that or what you should do with that is, is hard if you don't have a grasp of TypeScript and web applications. so pretty soon we'll have pages which are like, here's how to connect linear and GitHub with OW Town, or, you know, two nouns connect them, for all of those companies and to do automations and all these like concrete applications. I think that's, you have to do it. You have to figure it out. Jeremy: Just briefly for someone who hasn't heard of val.town, like what, what does it do? Tom: Uh, val.town is a social website, so it has comments and likes and all of that stuff. but it's for writing these little snippets of TypeScript and JavaScript code that run. So a lot of them are websites, some of them are automations, so they receive emails or send emails or connect one service to another. And yeah, it's, it's like combining some aspects of, GitHub or like a code platform, uh, but with the assumption that every time that you save, everything's instantly deployed. Jeremy: So it's maybe a little bit like, um, like a glitch, I guess? Tom: Uh, yeah. Yeah, it takes a lot of experience, a lot of, uh, inspiration from Glitch. Jeremy: And I, I think, like you had mentioned, you enjoy writing the, the technical blog posts and the documentation. And so at least with val.town, your audience is developers versus, the geospatial community who probably largely doesn't care about, TypeScript and the, the different technical decisions there. Tom: Yeah, it, it makes it easier, that's for sure. The customer is, is me. [00:56:30] Shifting from solo to in-person teams Jeremy: Nice. Yeah. Looking at, you know, you, you worked as a, a solo developer for Placemark, and then now you've got a team of, is it like maybe five Tom: Uh, it is seven at the moment. Jeremy: Seven people. Okay. Are you all in person or is it, remote Tom: We all sit around two tables in Brooklyn. It's very nice. Jeremy: So how did that feel? Like shifting from, I'm in, I don't know if you worked from home while you were working on Placemark or if you were in coworking spaces, but you're, you're shifting from I'm like in my own head space doing everything myself to, to, I'm in a room with all these people and we're like working on this thing together. I'm kind of curious like how that felt for you. Tom: Yeah, it's been a big difference. And I think that I was just talking with, um, one, one of our, well an engineer at, at val.town about how everyone kind of had, had been working remote for obvious pandemic world reasons. And this kind of privilege of just being around the same table, if that's what you like is, a huge difference in terms of, I just remember having to. Trick myself into going on a walk around the block because I would get into such a dark mental head space of working on the same project for eight hours straight and skipping lunch. and now there's a little bit more structure. yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a overall, an improvement. Some days I wish that I could go on a run at noon 'cause that's the warmest time of the day. but, uh, overall, like it makes things so much easier. just reading the emotions in people's faces when they're telling you stuff and being able to, uh, not get into discussions that you don't need to get into because you can talk and just like understand each other very quickly. It's, it's very nice. I don't wanna force everyone to do it, you know, but it it for the people who want it, they, they, uh, really enjoy it. Jeremy: Yeah. I think if you have the right set of people, it's definitely more enjoyable. And um, if you don't, maybe not so Tom: Yeah, we haven't hired any, like, extremely loud chewers yet or anything like that, but yeah, maybe my story will change. Jeremy: No, no one microwaving fish. Tom: No, there's, uh, yeah, thankfully the microwave is outside of the office. Jeremy: Do you live close to the office? Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Like most of the team is within a 20 or 30 minute walk of the office and it's very fortunate. I think there's been something of a mass migration to New York. A lot of us didn't live in New York before four years ago, and now all of us do. it's, it's, uh, it's very comfortable to be here. Jeremy: I think that makes, uh, such a big difference. 'cause I think the majority of people, at least within the US you know, you're, you're getting in your car, you're sitting in traffic. and I know people who, during the pandemic, they actually moved further, right? Because they went, oh, like, uh, I don't need to come into the office. but yeah, if you are close enough where you can walk, yeah, I think that makes a big difference. Tom: Oh yeah. If I had to drive to work, I think my blood pressure would be so much higher. Uh, especially in New York. Oh, I feel so bad for the people who have to drive, whereas I'm just walking with, you know, a bagel in hand, enjoying listening to the birds. Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. well now they have, what is it, the congestion pricing in Tom: Yeah. Yeah. We're all in Brooklyn, so it doesn't affect us that much, but it's supposedly, it's, it's working great. Um, yeah. I hope we can keep it. Jeremy: I've never driven in New York and I, I wouldn't want to Tom: Yeah. It's only for the brave or the crazy. [01:00:37] The value of public writing and work Jeremy: I think that's probably a good place to, to wrap up, but is there any other thoughts you had or things you wanted to mention? Tom: No, I've just, uh, thank you so much. This has been, this has been a lot of fun. You're, you're very good at this as well. I feel like it's, uh, Jeremy: Thank you Tom: It's not easy to, to steer a conversation in a way that makes awkward people sound, uh, normal. Jeremy: I wouldn't say that, but um, what's been actually pretty helpful to me is, you have such a body of work, I guess I would say, in terms of your blogging and, just the amount that you write and the long history of projects that, that there's, you know, there's a lot to talk about and I'm sure it helps, helps your thought process as well. Tom: Yeah. I, I've been lucky to have a lot of jobs where people, where companies were like, cool with publishing everything, you know? so a lot of what I've done is, uh, is public. it's, it's, uh, I'm very, very thankful for like, early on that being a big part of company culture. Jeremy: And you can definitely tell, I think for people who look at the Placemark blog posts or, or now your, your val.town blog posts, like there's, there's a clear difference when somebody like is very intentional and, um, you know, it's good at writing versus you're doing it because, um, it's your corporate responsibility or whatever, like people can tell. Yeah. Tom: Yeah. You can't fake being interested. so you gotta work on things that are interesting. Jeremy: Tom, thanks again for, for agreeing to chat. This was fun. Tom: Yeah thank you so much.

In this episode Nikki talks to Camilla Gordon, a  process facilitator , about representation in Lego and her new “Figiverse” project. They talk about  How Camilla uses Lego Serious Play in facilitation The lack of representation within Lego  ‘I had people of colour seeing these more representative Lego pieces and had really emotional reactions to it, because people have never seen themselves in these pieces' ‘It has become so normalised that particular identities don't get represented in different spaces' Improving representation and access to more diverse Lego pieces ‘recognizing that these forms of representation shouldn't be separated from the more traditional Lego pieces, but actually should be a core part of those packs' Camilla's new “Figiverse” project including how it started and future plans A full transcript is below.   Links: Today's guest: www.Camillagordon.co.uk www.Figiverse.co.uk To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: podcast@iaf-englandwales.org IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W  Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name's Nikki Wilson, and today I'm going to be speaking to Camilla Gordon. So welcome, Camilla. To get us started would you like to tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.    C.G Sure. So I am a freelance facilitator, and I'm a process facilitator. So focused on getting groups from A to B, I am what I would call sector agnostic. So work across a range of different sectors with lots of different clients and groups from unaccompanied children, refugees and asylum seekers all the way through to corporate boards, and part of my approach in doing that work is trying to facilitate processes that are more inclusive, kind of recognizing power dynamics and hierarchies and rooms. I'm really clear that I'm not a D&I facilitator. For me, that's just the core part of how I work, rather than it being a kind of defined piece. And so, yeah, I do lots of kinds of work, lots of different places, lots of different processes.   N.W  Great. And so the focus of today's conversation is Lego. So how and why do you use Lego in your work?    C.G So I'm a Lego Serious Play facilitator, or what I usually like to say, I'm trained in Lego Serious Play. I say that because I use elements of Lego Serious Play in my work. But I'm not wedded to it in a strict way, in relationship to the process and how it works. I like to take bits and pieces of different methods and tools to make it work for the group, and so use Lego in a range of different ways within the different processes that I run from using Lego Serious Play in its most formal sense, but also using Lego as a tool to explore different parts of conversations and in different ways.   N.W  And so while you like to use some Lego, I believe you noticed there was something that you didn't like about it. So could you tell us a little bit more about that?   C.G  Yeah, definitely. I started using Lego Serious Play about seven years ago, and one of the first things I noticed was the lack of representation within Lego. I saw lots of yellow faces, I saw lots of yellow hands, but I didn't see any representation of black and brown heads and hands. I didn't see any representation of disabled people. I didn't see representation in many ways, in the Lego that I was using.    Following on from that, I spent a lot of time looking for some of those pieces, looking for ways to bring representation into my kit, because the groups that I work with were because the groups that I work with are from a huge range of different backgrounds with a huge range of different identities. And on that journey, I realised part of the reason I didn't have that in my kit to begin with was because very little of it existed in the world. I ended up on Lego resale websites, talking to Lego dealers, and while there were a few representations of black and brown heads, a lot of them were double printed with happy and angry on either side. And I was very aware of the stereotypes and tropes that come along with racial stereotypes, and I didn't want to feature that in my kit. And in the end, I had to get them custom printed, so I bought a whole load of heads with the formal colour being reddish brown or medium Nougat, which is the term the colour definition from LEGO. I had to get them custom printed.    And obviously, recognizing representation isn't just about racial representation. I also spent a lot of time looking for other identities that could be represented. And looked at things like wheelchairs. They were also very hard to source and had only been released in one kit. And they were five pounds each for the ones that I could source and they were very hard to find. Looking for other forms of representation, things such as hijabs, different elements of different religions, different elements of different identities, they were virtually impossible to find. And so it became a bit of a mission for me to try and find more pieces like that. And I came across a statistic. These numbers are not the actual numbers but it was something along the lines of 8 to 10 times the number of yellow and white heads represented to the number of black and brown heads represented. So there was a huge disparity in relation to those pieces.    Part of the reason doing this was so important to me was there is a perception that yellow is a neutral colour and that yellow represents everyone. When I get asked this question, I usually respond by asking, there is an American cartoon, The Simpsons, and they are all yellow. What ethnicity would you say the Simpsons were? Usually I get a very clear answer back, if I don't, then I ask which of the characters in The Simpsons aren't yellow? And then we find characters like the shopkeeper Apu. And then it becomes even more clear that actually that isn't a neutral colour. And time after time after time in my workshops, I had people of colour seeing these more representative Lego pieces and at times, I've had, you know, really emotional reaction to it, because people have never seen themselves in these pieces. I've had young people in wheelchairs who have never seen themselves in these pieces, and I regularly hear things along the lines of, it's me, I've never seen this before, through to young people who have taken away models of themselves and keep them on their on their shelf, because they want to keep that in sight for them, because they have never seen it. And part of the reaction when I talk to people is less about seeing themselves, but the realization that they have never seen themselves because it has become so normalised that particular identities don't get represented in different spaces.    N.W  Okay and so, I mean, obviously you were already taking some action within your own kit, but then you've now decided to actually take this forward and do something wider and bigger. How did you decide to do that and to do something more with the work that you'd already done?    C.G Well, this has been something that's been set on my mind for two years, but I was really keen that other people should have access to these sort of pieces, from the perspective of particularly Lego Serious Play facilitators, to broaden the representation within their kits. But beyond that, I use Lego mini figure pieces at the start of almost all my workshops, whether or not I'm using Lego Serious Play in order for people to be able to build representations of themselves. What has come out of that is the number of people requesting those pieces and asking where I got them from, because they want access to them. And so over a period of time, it became really clear that people did want these pieces. And so I decided that it was important for these pieces to be on offer, not just for Lego Serious Play facilitators, but for facilitators in general, and if and when individuals want them, for families, for people who are not facilitators, and for youth groups who work with a range of identities in their spaces. And it was hearing from individuals again and again that they wanted access to these pieces that was this sort of catalyst for me moving forward with this and trying to make it happen.   N.W And so how did you decide how you'd approach taking it wider, as it were? I mean, so you said that before you get custom printed figures in the designs that you want, how did you decide to kind of approach taking it wider?   C.G Well, something that has changed over the last few years is Lego has improved the range of pieces that they offer. While they don't always feature in their kits, you can order them directly.    N.W Right.   C.G And so in me being able to access more pieces, it meant there was an opportunity to pull a range of pieces together to make, to make a product, to make something that would be beneficial to groups of people recognizing that these forms of representation shouldn't be separated from the more traditional Lego pieces, but actually should be a core part of those packs. As I say, I don't think we should be adding things on, they should just be the norm. Yeah, and so that was part of how I went about it. I did a lot of research around what pieces were available, and a number of pieces are actually no longer available. I had a number, I have a number of heads, black heads that feature Vitiligo. I can no longer find those on the Lego website. I also came across a piece with a cochlear implant on the hair, I had to order those from a Lego dealer because I could no longer source them directly from Lego. And so there's been a lot of different moving parts, but for me, it was about the research piece and looking at how we could bring the different parts together into something that was accessible for people to be able to purchase, and also gave the opportunity to give kits to youth groups and organisations who potentially wouldn't be able to afford them otherwise.   N.W Okay and so what you're going to be offering is complete kits with this range of different pieces within them to people to purchase and potentially some to for people to get free if they're not able to afford them. Is that? Is that right?   C.G Yeah, so the the business is called Figiverse, and there are curated packs of different size, generally ranging from for groups of 6 to 8, for groups of 14 to 16, for groups of up to 30, that include a range of mini figures, a range of heads and hands, and also different accessories. Other products that are on the market generally offer per one mini figure, one accessory. But really for this to work as a product, you need more than that, because you want people to have the choice in how they represent themselves. And so generally the kit, so for our kit, for 14 to 16 people we have over 100 accessories in that pack so that people really can choose, and they are designed to be used by facilitators. And so they come with a set of base plates so people can present their models. And come, you know, in a carry bag, trying to think about these products from all different angles to make them as usable as possible, and a number of different use cases for facilitators to be able to to use them effectively from the get go.   N.W Okay, great. And so for listeners' benefit, we're actually speaking at the end of November in 2024 how and where have you got to so far with this project?   C.G Great question. Well, so hopefully today, I'll be launching the website, and, broadly speaking, seeing what, what the response is. Ideally we would see in the next few weeks, in the run up to Christmas, what sort of things are popular, and then doing a bigger launch for January, wanting to make sure that we're getting it right in terms of what people want, but also being really clear that these products aren't Perfect. All the elements that we would want represented aren't there, and so over time, keen to improve that range. So while right now in the product development, we have what we can get, we're actually very limited by those things. And I've tried to find ways right now to improve that. So creating flags, like pride flags, for example, to try and represent identities from a range of different perspectives and ways. So those are currently made by me using decal but hopefully moving forward, they would be more professionally developed. So at a very early stage in the whole thing, but trying to work with a good enough mentality to try and get out there.   N.W Okay, and so I was going to ask a bit about what's coming next. Well, obviously, just actually launching the website. And then you said that you've got a kind of bigger launch plans for January. Have you got any particular ideas of what you're going to do with that?   C.G Yeah, I think for me, I would like to really expand what can be offered, primarily because I want to get this into more spaces for more people to be able to access. Right now, you've got the core kits. Other options that I'm looking at are things like office parties, renting a kit, organisations are really keen to move away from alcohol based social events because they're not inclusive, and so using this is a bit of a tool for that, offering rental options. But also if people want to create their models and then keep them also offering things like guest books for weddings, where people want to build themselves as a wedding guest and keep a really wonderful part of their day for them. Also options for things like subscriptions, so facilitators can keep updating the kits that they have, and getting new accessories, and maybe going seasonal accessories. So I think there's a lot of different options that are quite exciting to think about, but again, trying to start with the basics to see, to see what happens really from here.   N.W And do you have any thoughts about how you will kind of prioritize what the next stages of development will be? Because obviously, you've said there's this whole range of options, and you're starting with that kind of good enough core where, how would you decide what to do next with each of those?    C.G Broadly, the next few weeks will dictate a lot of that, where the interest is. At the moment, I haven't gone for kits that are smaller than sort of 6 to 8 people. I've had a lot of interest from parents, from people who look after young people, and so potentially looking at an offer there, but a lot of it is dictated on capacity. At the moment, it's just me roping in a few friends when we can, and also keen to have a look at the sustainability side of things. At the moment, 20% of the kits, up to 20% of the kits are from, include pre-loved Lego pieces, and so we'd love to play around with that, but again, right now, it's seeing what happens now, what the interest level is, and then working with that to try and build products and offers that work for the audiences that we're talking to.   N.W And I guess what you're saying about pre-loved and sustainability part of the issue with that is that a lot of these things don't exist in the pre-loved market at the moment. And so you're, you've maybe got the core kits that are the more easily available pieces, and then I suppose the more that this grows, you've got more chance of being able to get pre-loved pieces. And so, I mean, you've probably hinted at this already, but what are your hopes for the project, and what help do you need to get there?   C.G I think my hopes are that one day, when I take a kit such as this into a group, there'll be no reaction to it, because people will have seen these pieces, they'll be used to seeing all of these pieces in every Lego kit, and that would be my ideal one day. That might be quite far away at this point. But also, I would love for this conversation to keep going, particularly with Lego, to see if there are opportunities to work together or to really look at the range of pieces that they have and how that can be expanded in relation to other forms of identity, particularly beyond racial identity, as I think there's a there is a huge focus on racial identity, but there are also plenty of other identities that aren't represented in lots and lots of different spaces. So having more access to pieces that represent that kind of wide range of identities is really important to me, and so I'd like to keep the conversation going. If people wanted to get involved, it'd be great to have those conversations. Get in touch, join the mailing list, but also, if you're a facilitator and you're looking for something you can bring into your workshops, do think about picking up a kit. They are great for things like introducing people, but also for opening conversations around diversity and representation. I have also used them for things such as building teams. What, how would you build your ideal team? What do each of these people need and look like? And so I think there's a range of things and as I said, representation is a core part of this product. But actually, the reason I developed the product is because it's a really, really great way to open conversations with people that aren't related to representation, and these pieces are just a part of that in the way that all of the other pieces are.   N.W Okay and so if listeners want to know more about this project or about you and your work how can they find you and find the project?   C.G So Figiverse has its own website, which is figiverse.co.uk . I'm also hoping by the time this goes out, that there will be some social media presence. We'll see about that. But you can also find me as an individual. My website's Camillagordon.co.uk , find me on LinkedIn, and would love to chat more and find out from people what they think about this as an idea.   N.W Brilliant. Well, I'm sure there'll be lots of people keen to get in touch and sort of know more about it. Sounds like a great project, and we'll put the links in the show notes as well so that they're easy to find. But thank you so much Camilla, it's been great to chat to you about this.   C.G Great thanks. Nikki. Really appreciate it and excited to be able to share a bit more and a bit further and wider about the project.    N.W Brilliant. We'll be looking forward to hearing more.    C.G Thanks   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at podcast@IAF-Englandwales.org .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.

  In this episode Helene talks to Jane Clift about her role as the Chair of IAF England and Wales. They talk about: How Jane got involved with the IAF and the facilitation community “the game changer for me was coming to my first IAF conference,I had never met so many people interested in facilitation” How Jane became the Chair of IAF England and Wales Highlights and challenges since becoming the Chair  The importance of the IAF and community events “I think there's been a recognition in our chapter, in our community, we can all learn from each other.”  And future plans for both the IAF England and Wales chapter and Jane A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-clift/ Email: chair@iaf-englandwales.org  To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: podcast@iaf-englandwales.org IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and today I'm going to be talking to Jane Clift, consultant, coach and facilitator and Chair of IAF England and Wales. Welcome Jane.   J.C Thank you very much, Helen. I'm very happy to be here.   H.J So I've got lots of questions for you, mostly about your role as chair, but before we do that, it'd be really nice to hear a little bit more about you as a facilitator and the type of work that you do.   J.C Very good opening question there. So I have facilitated in quite a wide range of contexts, and I think I was doing it before I knew it was called facilitation. So I'm currently have my own business, but I've also worked a great deal for organisations, originally in sort of technology and consulting roles. So I think I was setting up and running workshops well before I knew that there was a term called facilitator, or that facilitation was a thing. So I would say that my practice started very, very organically, very organically. It's   H.J It's funny, if I listen back to all the different podcasts we've done, we've done, I would say that that kind of thing is a real thread through all of them that people have kind of come into facilitation accidentally, organically, or discovered that it is called facilitation after they began doing it in the first place.    J.C Exactly, yeah, something that I've also, I've always really loved stationery and stationery shops, like I really, really enjoy going into rymans and places like that. So obviously, when you're working as a facilitator, you have got the best reason in the world to be stocking up on colourful stationery craft materials. So there's something about that aspect of it that I don't know,  just I've always really, really liked that idea of bringing, like, colourful stationery or objects into the workplace and having a reason to use them. And that reason is facilitation.    H.J I love it. That's a great reason. I am also a self confessed stationery nerd, so I totally, I'm totally on board with that. Is there a particular type of facilitation that you enjoy doing, or that you feel is your kind of forte? J.C So I've done a lot of facilitation around agreeing, like a strategy or a road map, or like, identifying things that are getting in the way. So one of the areas that I've actually facilitated on quite a lot is risk management, which is really an important topic if you're doing large scale programs or projects, which I've done quite a lot of in my career. So I actually really like that as a topic, whether you do that in person or online. I have done quite a lot of those workshops where you end up with a room covered in pieces of paper, covered in sticky, you know, in post its and so forth. But during lockdown, like many people, I became very adept at online facilitation, and that's probably the space that I've worked in the most over the last few years, and I, I really, really like that, and I'm amazed that it works, because you're connecting up people that can be all over the world, and you're just in this virtual space, and yet you can, you can make magic happen if you can facilitate it well, and I find that an incredible and unexpected gift that came out of lockdown. Having said that, there is nothing like the energy of being in a room with people. I also absolutely love that I had the great pleasure of being facilitated myself recently, large scale workshop, 30 of us in a room, all talking about something, and it was just so much fun. So I'm not sure I've really got a niche. I'm quite a versatile person, but I tend to be better with topics that are a little bit more creative or future oriented, or that are kind of attached to something that's happening right now. Hence the interesting risk.    H.J Ah, interesting, okay, and it's, yeah, also good hearing about that adaptability, which I think also flows through a lot of facilitators, practice or facilitation, and yeah, that whole movement online. I think it is amazing sometimes, as you say, to think how people can be connected online, but somehow, well, it's not somehow the magic happens. It's because we're brilliant facilitators.   J.C It is because we're brilliant facilitators and we can create a safe and a fun space. It's, it is incredible, and it's also something that you almost don't realise that you have a gift for until you get that feedback. Oh, that was great workshop. Oh, we made, you know, we made progress, or I felt I could speak up. During the lockdown, I volunteered as a facilitator for action for happiness, and I ran a monthly session, and each month we get to, oh, I've got to do that session again. Oh, like an hour and a half, and I go into it, and I had a co facilitator, and we'd be part way through the session, and the magic would start to happen. And you could feel, because lockdown was a very tough time for many people, and you could feel the magic of facilitation happen. You could feel people relax, open up, and at the end of the session, we'd always do this check in, and everybody without exception, every single one of those sessions we ran, people said, Oh, I feel better. All my energy levels have lifted, or I feel relaxed. And I just thought, wow.   H.J Yeah. And you get that real kind of lovely feeling in your body where you think, oh, yeah, this, this is, this is good. This is why I do this. Okay. And so you talk about, you know, your work, and then sort of almost discovering, I guess, that you are a facilitator, or that that's the thing that you can call what you do. When did you get more involved in the kind of the facilitation community and the IAF in particular. J.C So like many people who facilitate, I had been doing quite a lot of facilitation, without much formal training or orientation and without any awareness there was a facilitation community. So what kind of got me into the IAF was I, I'd been doing some team, like away day workshop, and I had, this is classic me, by the way, I kind of reinvented the wheel, not realising that there were lots of methods out there and and like ways of doing things. And after I did this workshop and probably kind of gave it far too much effort, I thought I actually need to get learn some technique here. I've got the interest, I've got the motivation, I've got the aptitude. I haven't got enough technique. So I went and did some training with ICA UK. I did, I think that their group facilitation skills course. And I think the trainer was Martin Gilbraith, who, at the time, I think, was very much a leading light in the IAF. And I joined the IAF, and then I kind of washed in and out of it a little bit. And when I started to get more involved was at one of the London meetups. That's, I think, when I started to become more actively involved. Realised it was a community. Realised that you could come gather, meet other people who facilitate and talk about facilitation. Wow, amazing, it's a thing.   H.J A big network of geeks where we get to talk about all of these tools and techniques and stuff and stationery, probably. And so you discovered, I guess then this community, what kind of drew you in more, what kept you going to, you know, maybe the London meetups or ?    J.C I really like, I like being part of communities. So even though I have my own business, I do like to collaborate with other people. I do like to be connected to other people. It's quite important for me. So there's quite a lot of community attached to coaching, which is another area I'm involved with. And I think once I identified there was community attached to facilitation, I was just interested in finding out more. And the meetups were definitely really good for that. And then the game changer for me was coming to my first IAF conference. I don't think I'd ever met, I had never met so many people interested in facilitation, all in one space. And also the diversity of practice was really, really, it was really inspirational for me. I had been toying with some more creative practices, not necessarily having the confidence to implement them. And at that conference, I saw people that were just going, you know, all in on their more creative facilitation practices. And I was like, wow. So I think it was that very first conference which really said, thought, these are my people, these are my tribes. We're all different from each other, and yet we've got this thing in common. And so it was the creative thing, a kind of curiosity about people, and I think another common thread was this desire to, desire to make an impact in the world, but in quite a practical way.   H.J It does, I recognize that feeling of finding your people and just feeling really comfortable in a space, whether that's a meetup or something bigger, like the conference, and just thinking, oh yeah, people get what I'm talking about. And, yeah, that, yeah, making a difference I think is, is part of that, isn't it? How can we spread the word a bit? How can we share our, share our inner geekery, our love with other people? Okay, so pulling you further in, then you've been chair for the last couple of years, since January 2022, I think. And so how did that happen?    J.C Well, I have to say I wanted to get more involved in the IAF, and I think I stood for the board, and I guess I didn't intend to be chair, but I'm one of those people who I think it's called situational leadership. I don't choose to be a leader unless I feel in a context I am the best person to be that leader. So so I don't have, I don't have a burning desire every day to lead, but when I'm in a situation where I think in this context, I'm the best person to lead in order for us to get a good result, that's when I get involved. So that's I think, in with that group, when I became, when I joined the board and joined the leadership team, I was, I felt I was the best person, or the one who had had the capacity and the willingness. There was plenty of other people who had the expertise to do it, but I had the capacity and the expertise and the motivation to be the chair. So that's why I became the Chair. And it's been incredible, incredibly interesting thing to have done.    H.J So that's interesting, that kind of sweet spot of having all those things come together at once, as you say, the capacity and the sort of, you know, the space and the skills to actually do that. And so thinking the responsibilities is quite a it's a big deal being the chair, especially of, you know, a group of people that are all volunteers all coming together, you know, all sort of, all having their own day jobs as well. What have been your main kind of responsibilities, I suppose, as a chair, knowing a little bit about having done the role already?   J.C So the responsibilities are quite varied. The way I've worked as the chair is, there's a lot of structuring of the leadership group so that we can work effectively. So I guess there's an administrative element to it, and there's also an aspect to it where you're trying to move things forward in what you feel is the general direction that the group is interested in, whilst being mindful of the fact that everybody is indeed volunteering their time, and that, you know, it's a volunteer organisation, with fairly sort of Slim, slim but stable financial capacity. So it's it's been, for me, about like moving us forward, taking us further away from that sort of post COVID environment, where I think many organisations, you know, they had to get back on their feet, and I think you had steered the leadership team beautifully through the incredible challenges of lockdown. And I think I've been able to pick up from where you left off, continue the great work. And I think move us into an even, you know, into a stronger position. And definitely, I feel we've fully recovered from lockdown now, and I think evolved somewhat as well in some really, like, great, sort of great directions.   And I think we've also, and I've done this quite frequently when I've been in leadership roles, is I've tried to sort of streamline. And so sometimes with all organisations, particularly ones where a lot of people are very ideasy, you can spread yourselves too thinly, you can chase hairs, you can have an inconsistent practice because you're trying to do too much because you've got so many ideas. So I think one of the responsibilities of the chair is to sort of say, yes, these are all brilliant ideas, but where, where do we feel we can really make the most difference? Where should we? Where should we focus our energies to have the greatest impact? So that's definitely one of the, one of the responsibilities of the Chair is to sort of provide that, that leadership to, but to, you know, to acknowledge all the great ideas, but just to say, right what are we actually capable of doing as a leadership team, as an organisation, given it's entirely volunteer led.   H.J And especially maybe with a group of facilitators, you know, we do tend to like ideas, don't we? We've got all sorts of, you know, things that we think should happen and could happen, and so I guess containing them then and making sure that, yeah, some are driven forward, some aren't lost, and people are still on board with with all of what's going on is definitely quite a challenge. And thinking, also back to my time as chair, it felt like that was a period of, as you say, in COVID, treading water, just making sure that things sort of carried on really but definitely your era has been much more of a moving forwards, progressing, improving things, I think. Thinking then about highlights, I suppose, things that have really stood out for you, things that have gone really well. What are those?    J.C The highlights for me, from my time as chair the sort of the red carpet event every year is our conference. It's so much fun. It is two days of learning, connecting, getting totally out of your comfort zone, talking about facilitation, meeting your community, making friends, being grateful, thanking everybody for all that they're doing. So the two conferences in the time that I've been chair, they've both been really, really wonderful events for me, and I am so grateful for being part of them, even though, as Chair, I'm actually quite second hand to the conference because it's organised by a different group. But when I'm there at the conference, I have felt this is such a celebration of facilitation, it really is. And I've also been really pleased I've brought new people to the conference and introduced people to the leadership team and so forth. So that's the red carpet events.    I've absolutely, also really loved our leadership away days. And in fact, can you just describe them different? Yes, we're calling them retreats now. I also love, yes, our leadership retreat. So they've been absolutely wonderful events as well. And I remember thinking, Oh, I'm going to be facilitating facilitators, uh oh. So I remember that was thinking that was quite the challenge. And yet, you know, I think we've, I think I've been involved now in three of the retreats, and I think they've all, they've all gone well, and I've learned a lot about facilitation from, from running those, from designing those sessions, and from also witnessing people in our leadership team facilitating sessions within the session. So they've been really wonderful as well. And I guess I do love the in person activities, like I do love being in a room or a space with other people, so any opportunity to do that has been great, and I think inspired by meetups that I went to in London, I'm now based in Sheffield, and I've also kicked off like a facilitate Sheffield group. I'm not sure I would have done that had I not had the experience of being a chair. I've just realised sometimes it's just like, shall we do this? Shall we try and get something moving? And that's been really interesting as well, that sometimes you've just got to have a go.    H.J Oh, that's interesting. That the Sheffield meetup sort of grew out of your position as Chair, if you like. It's interesting thinking about that facilitating, facilitators bits? I totally Yeah, that really makes sense to me. That whole, you know, you, it's really good to see other people and experience other people's facilitation, but at the same time, I think possibly we are the worst participants, but it is nice to kind of get together and have that, have that all sharing of how we do things as well. I think it's quite inspirational.   J.C It's really, really inspirational for me. I find the diversity of people's practice, of their life experiences, the fact that people come from different parts of the UK, and we've all converged, actually, I think it's been in Manchester or Birmingham. So we've kind of all come together. I find that very, very interesting. And everyone's paths into facilitation have been quite different. So so for me, I kind of find those sessions are very opening up, and afterwards I go away and I've learned something that's often quite significant for me and I've then carried forward with me. So I'm not going to those sessions and think I'm going to boss everyone around. It's been, they're very collaborative.   H.J Definitely. No, that's been my experience as well, that feeling of collaboration. So what's changed, you know, quite a lot, probably in your time as chair, from this period of, you know, COVID, where things weren't moving forwards very much perhaps. What are the main changes you think you've seen in the last couple of years with the IAF England and Wales leadership team and board, but maybe beyond that as well?    J.C So there's been quite a lot of changes. I think facilitation itself as a sort of professional and area of expertise is more understood, known, celebrated and in demand than it's ever been. That's quite interesting. I think in the time I've been chair, I'm, I have a tendency to want to structure things, so I probably have brought in some structure more, perhaps some more structure than there was previously. And I've, as I said, maybe done some of that streamlining activity. And I think everybody that I know in IAF England and Wales is really keen to, you know, expand our community, welcome more people in ,work on the diversity. I think that we are slowly becoming more diverse. We acknowledge that there's a lot more to do in that space, but there's a sort of appetite and a sort of momentum around that now, we're not just talking about it, we're doing something about it. So, for example, most of the leadership team have now taken part in anti racism training, which is, you know, really, really important. So I think perhaps we were a little bit more focused than we were.    The other thing that I think changed is, and I think you 100% laid the foundations for this. I think we are more tightly or better aligned with the EME region for IAF. So I've participated in our, the regional like leadership team meetings, and they've been very interesting. And I think there's been a recognition in our chapter, in our community, we can all learn from each other. And when we've had people come to the conference from other other chapters that survive other geographies that's been really, really interesting and inspirational. So we can, we can learn so much from each other. And we've also, I think also we as a chapter have been able to do a little bit of support for other chapters as well. So that's been really great, too. So I guess I'm just trying to summarise what's changed. So I think a little bit more structure and focus, and also, yes, totally recovered from COVID and the lockdown era, and I'm feeling we probably contracted a little bit during that time period, as many organisations did, I feel we're now expanding.   H.J It's really interesting that Europe and Middle East Regional link as well, because I personally really value that diversity and looking outside, you know, our chapter, and seeing what other chapters are do, are doing, and, yeah, forging those links is a really, really nice thing to be doing I think.   J.C It's a wonderful opportunity. One of the things when we hear, it's easy to look at the news and think, Oh, so many bad, bad, dark things happening in the world. What I find is when you connect with people from other geographies, other cultures, when you form those links, when you extend your community, it just makes all those bad news stories, they seem a little less important, because on a very practical, like, I don't know, day to day basis, or you kind of you're ignoring all that. You're reaching out and saying, no, there is, there are, It is worth doing this stuff. It is worth connecting. It is worth still believing that we can change things through our facilitation practice. You know, I just, I like the aspect of it. I find, actually find this, I find this idea of being part of a global community, I find it very optimistic and positive.    H.J It's almost quite, quite a skill, I think, to be able to find that optimism. Because, as you say, you know, there's a lot of doom and gloom around but I really like that way of thinking about things. Find the kind of the good stuff in, you know, all that's going on around us. Okay, and then flipping that on its head, however, with any role, with any you know group such as we are, there will have been challenges. What have been the main challenges? In a few minutes?   J.C So one of the challenges has been my own time. So I have my own business. Sometimes I'm working full time, and then I'm supporting this activity in my free time. So that's been a personal challenge for me. The other personal challenge for me is with my desire for structure and focus, I've had to really temper that, because I have had to learn, and it's been really, really good for me, that we've got to let the ideas flow. We, people need that space to let the ideas flow, to connect. We can't, I've got a tendency to go straight into right what are we all going to do? Action, action, action. And that doesn't work with this community, because that, they that's not how this community operates. So it's been, for me that's been a tremendous learning curve, and I am now much, much more respectful and aware of that need to sort of have a lot more flow before you sort of, so that's been, that's been, as I said, it's been that's been quite challenging for me. And. And then, equally, it's also challenging that with the best one in the world, we are all volunteers, and everybody's time, you know, time constrained, or they have things going on in their personal lives which may inhibit their ability to do things, even if they're highly motivated to do that. And we are trying to be smart about this now, work at how we can outsource some of the more rote activities to to, like virtual assistance, so that we can, almost, like, use our time in a more clever and a smart way. And what I'm thinking, what are the other challenges have been? Well, it's always, you know, I think this is something we all suffer from, is, and I'm the, I'm also guilty of it is, is trying to do too much.   H.J And it's, I think, that bit about us all being, you know, we're all all volunteers. We're all doing this in our own time. We're all doing it because we are invested in our community, and we want it to be better, and we want more things from it, and we want it to still be the fantastic thing it is. But actually, you know, there's only so many hours in a day, and and then finding that time to do that, and the energy, and then collaborating and coordinating, coordinating that with with a whole heap of other people all around the country is, you know, it's definitely not an easy task.   J.C It's not easy at all. And I think at one point I was trying to, sort of almost like fly solo too much, and doing too much on my own. And then this year I've been really busy. And I, it was actually, this is a kind of a sort of, you know, people make New Year's decisions. So one of my decisions for 2024 was whatever I'm trying to do in life, I want to do that in collaboration with others. So I've been a much more collaborative leader in 2024 for our chapter, and I think that's been really beneficial for the chapter. So rather than thinking, I can, I'll do all this stuff on my lonesome, I've actually asked people to come in with me, and I think that's been much more successful for the chapter and for me, and again, it's another sort of smart way of working and sort of not being that kind of lonely leader marching up the mountain on their own. It's much better if you are, if you're doing stuff in small groups or with a partner. So that's just been a personal learning for me and a decision and a change of a change, like a change of sort of operation.   H.J So it sounds like there's been quite a lot of learning, you know, over the last couple of years for you as chair and probably for all of us as the leadership team as well. Thinking then about, you know, all that hard work that goes into making this stuff happen, and the IAF leadership team and the, you know, England, Wales, and the wider community, what do you think that that we kind of bring to people, you know, what? What's, what do people get from it?   J.C I think the most important thing that we offer is community. I think, I think many people who work in the facilitation space, I don't know if it's solo entrepreneurs, you know, or small businesses, and I think creating a community that's actually really easy to connect to, you can be in our community, don't have to be a member. You know, many people aren't members. It doesn't matter. The important thing is that there's a community that you can be part of, and we offer different ways of connecting. We have our online meetups, we have in person meetups, we have our conference and then I think what I've I've seen happen which is a very beautiful thing to witness. I have seen people who I know have only met through the conference or through the community start to do collaborations together, which shows you that these relationships are really, really building and developing and supporting people professionally. So I think that community thing is, we never did anything else, that's that's, for me, is the most important thing.    But the second thing, I think, is really important, is sharing practice and acknowledging when we see good work and supporting practice. And it can be really something quite practical like, has anyone done this type of thing? Can you recommend an exercise to do this? How do you price something so, so it can be, like the very practical things, but it can also be, I mean, at the conference, quite a lot of people will showcase something that perhaps they're still working on, in terms of offering it out to clients. It's a place where you can do some experimentation. I think that's just, I feel we are very much a community of practice, and I just think that's another huge benefit to all of not just the paid up members, but everybody in our community that we can support each other to develop practice, and we can learn from each other's practices.    H.J And it feels like that community, or our community, is growing all the time, and the more it grows, the more you discover new things. And you think, Oh, I didn't realise that was a thing that's interesting. I want to know more about that. And like, it doesn't seem that there are any edges to facilitation most. It's like just a constantly changing picture, which for me is someone who's got a fairly short attention span, I think is great. Always like, Oh, I've found something new to do, to learn about. So what do you think, then, is next for IAF, England, Wales and the broader community, whether members or, you know, not members.    J.C We've done quite a lot of work on, like, quite futuristic visioning, and I think we slightly rode back from that, because it almost became something that was inhibiting our more immediate development and growth. So I quite like the fact that we've been a little bit more realistic about our capacity. And we've kind of, we're focusing on a few things we want to do really well. So one of them is this wonderful podcast that I'm on today.   H.J Of course.   J.C  We want to support all of our meetups, online and in person. We want the conference to be a great success, I think, we, we obviously want to continuing offering this. It's very hard to sometimes crystallise it, but this informal kind of community support. I think, where I think there's potential is I think we could actually promote ourselves or promote the practice of facilitation more on social media, and perhaps be more structured about that. I would really like to use the, we have the IAF Global website, which is currently being updated. I would like to see that also used as a vehicle to promote, share, practice and support the community. I feel there's quite a lot of things we can do around diversity and also connecting up with our global community. So these are some of the things I find interesting and exciting, and I feel we could do more in these spaces, we could perhaps do more to support other chapters in our region as well. So there's some of the topics, I think, Oh, that's interesting. I feel my energy rising when I think about that. So there's quite a lot of opportunities. And it's just there's, again, there's so many opportunities and ideas, and there's only so much time and so much money at the bank. So so I think lots of opportunities, but we have to take a realistic perspective on it as well.   H.J Opportunities tempered with a bit of fear, bit of can we actually do this stuff? And your time as chair is coming to an end at the end of this year, I think. So what's next for you? What are you going to do with all those spare hours?   J.C So I have really, even though it's been very challenging and time consuming and sometimes frustrating, I've absolutely loved the opportunity to be a situational or servant leader for this chapter. It's been a wonderful opportunity for me. It's reconnected me with a lot of leadership practice that I hadn't really done for a little while. So so I'm really keen to stay involved with our chapter and stay on the leadership team and support a new chair, whoever that will be in 2025. I also want to continue developing my own facilitation practice. And I think the thing that's come out of it for me, there's two things, one more opportunity to do leadership in life, and I'm pretty confident I want to replace, replace, I'm definitely going to be pursuing, probably a trusteeship with another organisation as I think that's a really nice segue from from what I've done here, but a slightly different way of doing that. So I like to be busy, and I, I like to serve. I don't want to say be too idealistic and optimistic, but there is something wonderful about feeling that you are doing some good public service, or some good service for others without it being a huge strain on yourself. It's really good to know that you are committing some personal time to some activities, which we hope are going to do good in the world.   H.J Thank you so much for talking to me today. I've just got one last question, and that is, how can we get in touch with you? So if people want to talk more to you, what, how should we get in touch with you?   J.C The easiest way to get hold of me is via LinkedIn. I've got a LinkedIn profile and I'm on LinkedIn very frequently. That's guaranteed. And you can also reach me by the email address for the chair.   H.J We'll put any contact emails and your LinkedIn link in the show notes afterwards.    J.C Brilliant.    H.J Thank you so much, Jane, and I will see you soon.    J.C Thank you very much. What a wonderful opportunity to be interviewed by you. Thank you so much Helen.    H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at podcast@IAF-Englandwales.org .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

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In this episode Helene talks to Cath about her role as Senior Engagement Advisor and internal facilitator with the Environment Agency (EA) Cath tells Helene a bit about the EA and the type of work they do. She explains how her role as Engagement Advisor includes facilitation and also how she works an an independent internal facilitator for other projects withing the EA. Cath gives some examples of what she really enjoys about her role as a faciliator including working with the public on a climate adaptation project and working alongside external independent facilitators that the EA also use. She explains that external faciliatators are often used when more complex conversations need to be had, or where there has been a breakdown of trust and someone independent is needed. She shares some insights as to how the internal facilitators network of aroudn 200 facilitators was set up and how she balances her work as Senior Engagement Advisor and facilitator.  She tells Helene about a role play technique that really made a difference and about how asking good questions are crucial to her work as a faciliator. Cath also talks about how she keeps her faciliation skills up including attending the IAF England and Wales conferences, and local IAF meetups and EA facilitator learning days. She also shares some advice for other internal facilitators.  A full transcript is below. Today's Guest Environment Agency - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) facilitationnetworkmailbox@environment-agency.gov.uk   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter   Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/   And to email us: podcast@iaf-englandwales.org   IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team  Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/  Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript H.J Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and my guest today is Cath Brooks, senior engagement advisor with the Environment Agency. Welcome, Cath    C.B Hi, yeah. Hi. How are you doing? Alright?   H.J I'm good. How are you?    C.B Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm Looking forward to it.   H.J It's really good to have you on the podcast. Okay, so I have a whole load of questions to ask you, starting with the Environment Agency. I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about what the Environment Agency does and what your role is?   C.B Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I hope that it'll inspire people. I've worked at the Environment Agency for almost 20 years, and I still absolutely love it. It's a great organisation. So we're a public sector organisation, and we aim, quite simply, to protect and improve the environment. We employ about 12,000 people, and some people work nationally across England, and then some people work in area offices. We've got 14 different area offices across England, so you either work on national issues or you work on local issues in one of our area offices. And I guess to create places for people and wildlife, we work on quite a lot of topics that people are deeply concerned about, and finding ways forward can be difficult on some of the issues, people have strong opinions about the environment and how we should be managing the environment quite rightly. So Facilitation skills are really important in that context, with some of the really difficult issues that we're managing. So some of those topics are things like managing major industry, making sure they're not polluting the environment, and waste, dealing with contaminated land, making sure water quality of our rivers and we've got enough water so water resources as well, working on fisheries, conservation and ecology, and my area that I work on is management of flood risk. So those sorts of issues are really interesting, and people have strong opinions about how we should be managing those issues. So there can be quite a lot of conflict, I guess, which is why facilitation is so important.   H.J And so then, obviously that's quite a broad even under the umbrella of the environment, that's quite a broad range of different areas, and in your particular area then, in your role as senior engagement advisor, what does that actually involve? Sort of before, obviously, I guess facilitation is part of that, but I know you also do it sort of separately as well. What does your main role? What does your main role involve?   C.B Yeah, so we've got engagement advisors. Obviously, the organisation's quite technical organisation, quite science and engineering led, but we also have engagement and communications experts within the Environment Agency, and I'm one of those. So I work alongside quite technical teams, and at the moment I'm working, I've worked in lots of different parts of the organisation, but at the moment I'm working in flood risk management, supporting our teams. I work nationally, and so supporting our national teams with big projects where there's, they're difficult topics, where people have strong opinions. And my job, my main job, is engagement planning. So we're whatever the project is thinking about what are our engagement aims? Why do we want to work with our stakeholders? Why do they want to work with us, making sure we're not just thinking from the perspective of the Environment Agency, my job is to help our staff to think about the impact it's going to have on on a range of stakeholders, and plan the best methods that we can for that particular project to work out, how can we get the best from our stakeholders? How can they get the best of us? How can we find solutions that work for all of us, not just for the Environment Agency?    So we try to avoid taking what we've called in the past the ‘decide, announce, defend approach'. My job is to help staff to be more, to sort of take a more ‘engage, deliberate, decide', so to help have quality conversations about these difficult issues, really listen to our stakeholders, designing the right methods, really to help create that space for those quality conversations about what can be really difficult issues. And that's my job, is designing those sorts of engagement methods, if you like, and then facilitation sits really nicely alongside that.    H.J And so when you do that facilitation, I as far as I understand, you're part of an internal facilitators network. How, how did that kind of come about? When was that set up?    C.B Yeah, that's right. So when I joined the Environment Agency, back in 1996 we didn't have many people who worked in engagement roles or facilitation network. So we started really by setting up the engagement roles and setting up training for staff around comms and engagement and how to do that engagement planning like I've just talked about. And very quickly we realised actually there's another set of skills that that we need to develop as well, which is facilitation. So when you are designing methods that involve dialog, you know having facilitation skills, having skills to be able to design those interactive sessions in a way that you're making the most of that time when you've got your stakeholders in the room is really important. And it's quite a different skill, actually, than just engagement planning, being able to design a face to face or an online session where you've got people in the room making the very best of that time. So we're all really busy. Our staff are busy, our stakeholders are busy. So making the most of those opportunities, that's why we developed the facilitation skills courses.    So first of all, we started off by getting some expert engagement professionals in to help us design facilitation courses that were for in-house facilitators. And then very quickly, and within about 18 months, we realised that people were going on the training, really enjoying the training, but then struggling to apply the training in their day jobs, because, you know, you could go a couple of months and not use it. And we very quickly realised that if you're going to facilitate, and you have to do it quickly, you have to do it very often, and you need, you need to support each other. So we set the network up to give people safe space to be able to facilitate internally. So to develop people's skills and create opportunities to be able to facilitate not in your day job. So that's why the network was set up, was to, so people could put forward a facilitation request and get someone who wasn't their day job, they went and practised their skill outside their day job, which, which means you can facilitate in a more pure way which was, which has been fantastic. It's, it's worked really well.   H.J And I want to ask a little bit more about that, actually. But before I do, I just wanted to pick up on the differences between engagement and facilitation, and where you see the differences being?   C.B yeah, I do think they're quite different skills. So I think being able to do good engagement planning across a project, you think we've got big projects that might go on for years, and they're quite technical. You need to understand the, you know, the technical context of that bit of work, what the business objectives are, what the engagement objectives are, what best methods we can apply, you know, to help people to engage with us, and for that to have an impact on on the decision making, that's quite different. You could do that, and then you can realise in that process, there's usually going to have to be some kind of series of face to face events. But the person doing that engagement planning might not necessarily have this skill to be able to run that face to face content, and sometimes actually, we do need a completely independent facilitator.    So there might be a topic where we might have lost trust with some of our stakeholders, where it's not appropriate for the Environment Agency to facilitate those conversations and we do need an independent facilitator. And that is whether it's an in-house facilitator and an independent facilitator, being able to design that's more in depth, designing how to make the most of the conversation, how to create a space where people feel safe, to be able to air their concerns and feel listened to. I guess it's like engagement planning, but it's really specifically thinking about that particular conversation and what you want to get out of that conversation. So it's micro design, I guess, within a particular moment in time, and you might use that facilitator, or you might use a facilitator that then exits the process, whereas the engagement person stays throughout and they use the results of that conversation, and they kind of have to carry on, whereas a facilitator might just come in for that particular moment, then they might not be involved again. So they are quite different skills.   H.J And so what determines how you choose a particular facilitator, be it an in-house one or an external facilitator. How does that process work?    C.B Yeah, so we'd use an in-house facilitator for a process where, so quite often the engagement person needs to be, needs to participate in the conversation. And if the engagement person involved in that bit of work needs to be involved in the conversation, then they'd use an in-house facilitator to help make sure that, you know, they just come in, offer the service, create the space so that everyone in the team can participate. And often there's other people outside the team, you know, other stakeholders and things. And if the topic is not too controversial, it's all to do with positionality and trust and the way the Environment Agency is viewed. If there's good trust and good relationships between all the people, then an in-house facilitator can do that role. When I'm doing that, I upfront say, I work for the Environment Agency, but I'm not here today as someone who works in the Environment Agency, I'm here to facilitate and make sure you're heard. I'd work with all the different stakeholders before to make sure that the design was taken their, you know, that their needs into account. I wouldn't just turn up on the day, so do all the things that an independent facilitator.   Obviously, we're a public sector organisation, so it has to make the most out of me as a facilitator and engagement expert. So I try and do that as much as possible. I'd only use an independent facilitator, which obviously costs us money as an organisation. We'd only do that in a situation where we genuinely needed that independence, and lots of reasons for that, but normally it's to do with trust and transparency and making sure that, you know, there might be awkward situations where things might have gone wrong in the past, and stakeholders would feel more comfortable if someone independent is facilitating, even just for a small period of time, just to help us through that.    H.J And how many facilitators have you got as part of your network then?    C.B Yeah, I knew you were going to ask, I think there's about 200 at the moment on the facilitation network.   H.J Wow. Okay, and how do you manage that kind of balance of work in your, let's say, day job, versus facilitating for a different, a different project that you're not part of then?   C.B Yeah so for me, I mean, we all do it differently. So we're allowed 11 development days a year. And so I use those Development Days aren't just, you just, don't just go on training courses and things. I use my Development Days to do independent facilitation for other people within the environment agency. So each quarter I have a maybe do one event per quarter for someone else, if it's a chunky event, because you need to do the planning for them, you need to facilitate and then help them with the results. So I think we all do that. We view it as part of our development, and we, you know, discuss it with our line managers and carve out time to go and do it. It's completely up to each individual facilitator to decide, and we have peaks and troughs in our work. If you're working on a project that had a lot of facilitation within that project, then you might not do any facilitation for anyone else in that quarter. But yeah, generally, people use their development time.   H.J Okay. And what kind of facilitation do you particularly enjoy?    C.B My favourite thing I've done in the last 12 months was when we were at the River Severn, when we did, when I have opportunities to facilitate with members of the public who are not part of the Environment Agency. And I was really fortunate, we were sort of testing a new methodology on the River Severn about adaptation pathways, they're called, so thinking about climate change and the impact of climate change, and we did something called Community panels, where we got members of the community. So an independent facilitator designed the process and needed some sort of support facilitators, and I acted as a support facilitator, and that was really, really fun. It's just a real privilege to be able to hear from members of the public who don't know anything about what the Environment Agency does, and yeah, to help them to have conversations about the environment and flood risk management, and their ideas were absolutely brilliant and really refreshing to hear. And that was, that was great, because most of my work is either internal or with partners that know the Environment Agency well. So that was something that was different for me and really stretched me as a facilitator, bringing together people that didn't know each other. We were doing it online, and, you know, I didn't know them, and it was, yeah, it was helping them to feel relaxed very quickly and heard, that was, that was really good. It was good for me as a facilitator. Good stretch.    H.J Nice and how often, I guess, do you get to do something a little bit stretchy? Let's say that you actually learn from rather than, let's say a bit more day to day type stuff?   C.B Probably only a couple of times a year, because it did take up quite a lot of time. It was four evenings and a whole day on a Saturday. So that's quite unique. But again, very much supported by the organisation, and was viewed as part of my development. And it was, it was a brilliant part of my development. It really blew the cobwebs off in terms of my facilitation skills. Took me out of my comfort zone, and it was really good. And I guess it would be easy not to do things like that, and it would be, you know, easier just to kind of do the day job. But where's the fun in that? You know, it really, it really helped me, and I took a lot from it back to the day job, and it reminded me about the importance of making sure people are comfortable and active listening. And it was good for me to hear how people view the Environment Agency, who don't know much about what we do. And so, you know, they came up with these brilliant ideas. Like, as an engagement person, I was able to come back in and sort of talk to people about so. But realistically, yeah, time wise, probably once or twice a year.   H.J And how easy is it for you then to kind of just thinking about that there's different hats that you wear. How easy is it to be sort of, you know, independent facilitator versus engagement professional, and, you know, to kind of remember which hat you're wearing, I guess?    C.B Yeah, it can be hard. I think when you're, we get quite embedded in the projects that we're working on. So I'm working on one really big project at the moment, and, you know, you have weekly calls within the technical team, and you become part of that technical team, and that's where it becomes hard to add value I think. When you're fresh and you go into a team, that's when you know you can sort of challenge in a really constructive way. So I think we just, yeah, I just I do, I need to have reflective conversations with people on a regular basis. So my manager is brilliant for that. She's quite sharp, she's really useful for me and sort of challenging me and making sure that I am still doing the job and not sort of just blending into that technical team.Because facilitators and consultants, the benefit of using independent facilitators is that they challenge on our cultural assumptions, and we have got a lot of cultural assumptions, and we do make a lot of decisions, which means that we probably sometimes can push engagement down the track a bit further than we should. So yeah, so that's it's difficult, but yeah, using, using my manager and and also independent facilitators, that's where they can really add value. I think when we're using them on projects, it's really having really useful conversations with independent facilitators about what I'm working on, and they can give really good advice and just keep you remembering about how to challenge teams in a constructive way. But it is quite tiring. I'm not part of that team. I am there to challenge constructively, and it, yeah, can be tiring, but it's,  you do get a lot of rewards as well from it, but you're not part of that team. And that's, I guess that's a bit like what it's like as a consultant, is that you're not, you're not fully part of that team. You're there to kind of help them as a team, to work well together, but not necessarily be embedded within that team.    H.J Which definitely has its pros and cons. So thinking about then, the kind of the learning, the development, the support that you have to work as a facilitator, what kind of opportunities? I know you said you have your development days, and that you use those to do facilitation. But what else are you able to do to kind of keep your skills up and to learn more?    C.B So we get together as a network, so we have network learning days. So we've got one next Monday, so we run those about every six months where we get the whole network together face to face. We have network days more locally, like we, me and you run one in Bristol, which is really good. And the thing I love about the Bristol one that we do with the International Association of Facilitators is it's so refreshing for the Environment Agency, half the people that come are from the Environment Agency, and half the people that come are just independent facilitators doing all sorts of facilitation across all sorts of sectors, charity sectors, you know, finance sectors all around the world. You know, some of them work in Africa and all sorts of different places. And it's really exciting meeting, and really, really good for us to to be challenged and meet people that are doing facilitation in other places, and they you know that those days are brilliant, and although only a couple of hours, probably learn more in a couple of hours than you could learn, you know, in a whole day online and things and just little conversations and testimonials and, you know, different methods that people are testing out and what's gone wrong and what's worked well. That works really well.    And the two day conference that the IAF run in April. So I went to the, I went to that for the first time two years ago, and I went last year as well. And then every year I'm bringing more and more people from the Environment Agency, because that's when I learn the most in the year is just immersing yourself in two days of just learning sessions and being exposed to people that are facilitating in really different contexts. But there's so much that we can learn from each other. So yeah, and just techniques that you just wouldn't even dream of, I just techniques that I wouldn't even dream of, you know, like last time I went, there was an amazing session about using your body and not talking, but just how you can just facilitate using movement and using your body and help with conflict resolution and different difficult conversations with people just using your body. It sounds really strange, but it was really amazing. It's really interesting.   H.J I guess it's the same for for any of us that facilitate, we tend to do our particular thing, or even if you're an external independent facilitator, and even if you work across different sectors, you can get a little bit stuck in your own, you know, you have your preferred tools and techniques, and you use them again and again. And so any of those kind of days, you know, for me, definitely I learned so much and been to so many sessions where I think, oh, yeah, that's a thing, I've never thought about doing that. So it's definitely not just internal facilitators that have that, because I think the rest of us do as well.   C.B Yeah, yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah.   H.J It's really nice, the Bristol meetups you mentioned, I think that is a really nice mix of, I think it's about 50-50 split, internal and external. And I'm always amazed myself at the breadth of different types of facilitation, and the more you, you know, you talk about facilitation and what you can facilitate, you know, it's actually quite a huge array. The edges are very fuzzy, but it's really nice to see all those different methods and different conversations that we have together.    C.B Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.   H.J So thinking about the actual tools and techniques and all that kind of stuff, what's the one thing that you really, really love? I know you've talked about working with the public, what's the one methodology, perhaps, or tool that you really love using? Is there one or a few? Perhaps?   C.B So I worked on a research project called ‘adapting to a changing climate flooding coast'. It's like in difficult situations where flood defence is not the answer for lots of different reasons, but there's not a straightforward, this is how we're going to manage the problem. It was a really good opportunity to take ourselves out of our comfort zones and think, what methods within, with these communities could work? Because we've not got all the answers, actually. And so we developed some more conversation based techniques. And so we did role play simulation. I think when people say role play, everybody's like, Oh, but it's a 90 minute role play simulation where everybody gets a chance to hear different perspectives. And so that was a real privilege being involved in testing that and very emotional. So things like role play simulation and those sorts of techniques that support better quality conversations. I sort of we experienced a situation where people have been working together for years and years, like the local flood Action Group and local planners, our members of staff, and people got to the point where they didn't want to go to the meetings anymore, but because it was redesigned around this role play simulation, and they all went along and took on someone else's role for 90 minutes. At the end they, it was quite emotional, and people, I think, were able to empathise and stand in the shoes of I didn't realise I was making you feel like that. And it was a building block for completely redesigning how the different stakeholders then worked together, and then they got together after the role play simulation, said, What does this mean for the way we're going to work together in the future? And it was just, it was very powerful. It wasn't very long. It's only 90 minutes, like I said, but it was just the fact that it was like a key I suppose that sort of opened up people's eyes to realise that they'd all been exhibiting behaviours that were really unhelpful if they did genuinely want to find a way forward with each other and help each other out to find solutions.    And also, everyone went to the pub afterwards, which I think also just really helped for them to see each other as human beings and to realise that it's not easy for people to just work in a professional role and take their hat off. We are all people and we, you know, we do really need to respect each other within conversations. And it was a yes, it was quite a simple technique. And in the past, I would have been one of those people as soon as you say role play simulation, I would have been one of those people that's really sceptical, but it's really changed my view on the power of standing in someone else's shoes and pretending you're that person and doing that in a safe space. So that in the last few years has probably been the technique that I think has been most powerful in helping people that are really stuck in positions and the meetings have become very adversarial and difficult, and where our staff don't want to go, the stakeholders don't want to come. You know, it's the worst situation that you sort of as a facilitator and engagement expert that you bump into more often than you'd like to. And it's trying to help people reset their relationships. And it was a really powerful technique.   H.J Wow, it's good I guess that you have such a technique that you know definitely works in a given situation. And it sounds like those perhaps conflicting, difficult conversations do come up a bit, I guess, with the very nature of the work that you do.    C.B Yeah, absolutely, yeah.    H.J And do you get to kind of play around much with different tools and techniques? Because I presume you've got quite a lot of time pressure to actually do the facilitation and do all the rest of the work that you need to do. Do you often fall back on tried and tested things?    C.B Yeah, absolutely, we absolutely do fall back on tried and tested things, especially when we're doing things in-house. I think if we were, if there was a situation like that, we would use an independent facilitator to come in and help us. Even if I was doing some of the design work, I would be working alongside an independent facilitator. Yeah, I haven't done any roleplay simulation without an independent facilitator. And I think that is really worth it, and it can make a massive difference. So yes, it's recognizing those situations, I think, where something's become unproductive and difficult, mental health wise, for everybody involved, and it is worth then the investment of we need to do something different here. So we do support those situations.Most of the time,yeah, we're just using run of the mill techniques, like we love online since covid, you know, lots of online workshops, mural boards, or, you know, whiteboards that sort of thing is our go to run of the mill. What we would use all the time, slido polls, things like that. Yeah, that's just the everyday stuff that we're doing.    Although, like having to be very wary about not making assumptions about people's sort of not everybody's comfortable with using those, those sorts of techniques, you know. So having to remember that you do need, you do need to give people space to understand how to use the mural board. And I think people, yeah, so the mural boards and concept boards, whatever you use, they're brilliant, but you do have to always remember to do a little intro. It sounds really obvious, but otherwise, I think it can be a real barrier for people. Some people just don't know how to move the bits and bobs around, and just not getting too comfortable with whatever technique you're using, I think is really helpful.    There's loads and loads of techniques, and I think one of my favourite ones that I learned at the last International Association of Facilitators is like the role play simulation is a difficult technique, like, as in, difficult to design, and you need to do loads of prep. But the really quick technique that I learned was called, ‘I wonder if', and that was a really good technique, and it's just a different way of framing things so and that can be used at any moment with even within a meeting, you know, and that thinking about how you frame questions is maybe the, maybe the use of questions and how you frame questions is the most powerful tool that we've got as facilitators, in terms of, even within a session, that can make a real difference and turn a conversation around.   H.J And I guess, particularly when you know you can't necessarily redesign a whole session each time for every piece of work you do, and sometimes, if it's about, perhaps just making those small changes, by asking those powerful questions then, and they get you the results, much easier to focus on doing something like that than thinking about sort of grand redesign and using all sorts of different tools and all the rest of it, which is nice, and I think does keep us kind of interested. But actually, there's a question about, I suppose, who are we doing that for? Are we doing that for us as facilitators, because it's interesting, or are we doing it for the participants?   C.B Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I love a new technique.   H.J I was gonna just a sort of extra question, really, about that online versus in person? What's the kind of balance?    C.B Oh, yeah, like 95% online now, I would say. We've always been really careful, I think, as an organisation in when we get people together because of the carbon footprint. So, you know, ever since I joined the Environment Agency, there's, there's always, quite rightly, does this have to be face to face? Yeah, and we obviously use the trains and things like that. And, yeah, now is, since covid, I think it's, I guess, you know, we've realised the potential of online and invested in, you know, the government, just generally, I think, has invested more in sort of tools and techniques to help us as as people working for the government that to use those sorts of tools and techniques to have more effective online meetings. So the vast majority of the comms engagement work I do on projects is online workshops, rather than bringing people face to face. And that's a big change in the last five years, because when I was working on the National Flood and coastal risk management strategy four or five years ago, we did bring stakeholders together, at key points for face to face meetings. I think if we were doing that now, a lot of that would be online, so you still have, you still have meetings with people, but you know, they're virtual, which brings its opportunities and challenges. It's more inclusive for some people, because they don't have to travel. And, yeah, it's, but it's, there's something magical about having people in a room, and that's the bit you miss.    H.J Yeah, definitely. I was going to just pick up on the challenges bit. So I've asked you about what you enjoy about facilitation, and you know, nice, all the nice stuff, but what are the main challenges of being an internal facilitator?   C.B I think the main challenge is, I'm working on a project where, you know, where I'm always, whatever I'm working on, when you're working on the project, and you're part of the project team and you're the engagement advisor on it, how independent can you be? And that's a challenge. And so identifying when I need to bring in another in-house facilitator, or when I need to bring in an independent facilitator is really important, and I do, I do have to do that often on the big projects I work on. So, yeah, so that's that's a challenge, is recognizing when you need that and being able to see that far enough in advance so you know, so you can plan for that.   And the other challenge, I think, is it's easy to get really busy on your day job and on your projects and that they are it is busy, and there is a lot to do,making space for me to go and be an independent facilitator for someone else, when you're really busy making space to do that as often as I can. Otherwise, I don't keep my skills fresh, and six months can go by and I realise I haven't gone and done something. I've done lots of facilitation, but I've not done anything for someone else that's completely independent of my day job. And so that's what I have to check myself on, is making sure that I am, I am still doing that, and when I do it, it's so brilliant. And that's when, like I said earlier, that's when you get taken out of your comfort zone of facilitator, which is what sharpens us up, I think. Because facilitation is hard, it is it's exhausting, but it's brilliant as well, when you have those magic moments, when people have understood, you know, understood each other better, and you've helped, by the way, you've designed that meeting and created that space. You've helped people to move forward more in a more positive way, and that's worth it.   H.J Definitely. That's a definite similarity. I think, you know, as external facilitators, exactly the same. Well, certainly for me, you know, it's that feeling, I guess when you've you've done something right, you know it's gone well. And you know that people have come to a good place at the end, it's like, yes. Nice, big glow.    C.B Yeah, ready for my Mars bar at the end.   H.J Yeah. And so, I guess, last question really is, what advice would you give to anybody else that is working as an internal facilitator. Any words of wisdom?   C.B Yes, I would say, keep taking opportunities for training, because I think formal training has its place. And I think going and doing more formal training, it's easy to sort of just do your training initially and then never do any more formal training. I think formal training has its place as facilitators. So going and regularly doing formal training. Definitely mixing with other facilitators who are not part of your organisation. So the International Association of Facilitators provides that perfect opportunity in April. It's you know, and so if you're able to go along, even if it's just for a day, not the whole thing, I think that's really helpful. And then the last thing is, as often as you possibly can, is to facilitate outside of your day job. And I know that's difficult, it's difficult to make the time, but that is, I think, where you'll build your confidence as an independent facilitator. And getting, you know, getting feedback, I guess, is the last bit that links to that other one. So yeah, that's the things I would encourage people to do.   H.J Brilliant. Thank you. It's been brilliant to talk to you today, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and bits and pieces about all of your experience and all the stuff you love about facilitation.   C.B Thank you too.   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?   N.W Send us an email at podcast@IAF-Englandwales.org .   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.  

  In this episode Nikki talks to Claire Pearce about Journaling and Writing. Claire is a writer and facilitator who runs journaling and writing workshops and she also has her own radio show. They talk about: Why Journaling is a powerful too that facilitators could use themselves;         “Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it” Claire's journey with journaling and how it has changed for her; How to start journaling and writing regularly;             “I think just start really small is my main bit of advice” How Journaling can be applied in facilitation work with groups;       “ It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being        human” The writing activities that Claire uses in facilitation; Facilitation tools and frameworks such as the GROW model. A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest:   http://ClairePearce.uk To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter: Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: podcast@iaf-englandwales.org IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team: Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and today I'm going to be talking to Claire Pearce. So welcome, Claire.   C.P Hello, Nikki, thank you for having me.   N.W No problem. So first of all, um, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?   C.P Okay, so I do lots of things, which I've, I've begun to reconcile myself with. So in terms of journaling, and writing, I run journaling and writing workshops. One workshop I do is more about just writing for fun. And I call it writing for fun, even though it's sort of morphed out of journaling, I'm using prompts and things to get people just to write freely and have a bit of fun with it, and see where their pen goes, which is great for if people are sort of blocked or just want to have a bit of fun writing, heaven forbid. And then the other leg is more sort of self help, I suppose. So I do a monthly workshops that has a theme, like in January, I always do my, what's your theme workshop? So what's your theme for the year? So we reflect back and we look forward and sort of develop a theme or get to something near a theme. So it's that kind of thing. So there's the two different kinds. But yes, they are all with the idea of getting people writing because fundamentally, whether you write,  journal or something in between, it's all good for you. At least it is for most people.    N.W And beyond that, obviously, I know you also as a facilitator. So is there anything else that you want to say about your facilitation?    C.P I guess, yeah, I do freelance research work. I really enjoy it. I love sort of learning about something completely new, kind of going, Oh, wow, this is interesting. And yeah, so I do that as well. And I do do an odd bit of coaching. And I do have my own radio show. But that is obviously a voluntary,not obviously. But it is a voluntary thing that I do, because I love it. What else Oh, and I write, I've written a few books, I'm writing a few more. And I'm just getting into copywriting. It's going to be another string to my bow, because I've realised I really enjoy it. So yes, lots of things, I'll probably be something else the next time I speak to you.   N.W I know that's that feeling Claire, don't worry. But today, we are going to be talking about journaling and writing.Both are something that facilitators might do on a personal level, also as an approach that we could use with groups. So thinking first of all about on an individual level, what is it that you feel makes journaling and writing so powerful?   C.P Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it. And that's exactly what it does. And you know, I'm trying to find a way to capture that thing. You know, when people say a problem shared is a problem halved or whatever , there's something so true about that. And whilst it's not as powerful as speaking to a person, because that is the ultimate, you know, if you're struggling with something, or even if you just want to offload doing it with another person, there is something about the energy, I think, that passes out of you to somebody else that's different than if you write it down. But writing it down is the next best thing. And you can do it 24/7, because you've always got a pen and a piece of paper to hand. So you're not having to rely on it, I suppose it is a bit about self reliance, probably a part of my own personal journey with it. But yeah, just getting stuff out so that you can see it in a different way, you get a different perspective. And yeah, it just makes you feel better. And you can, you know, see things that you wouldn't have thought if you had just kept it in your head, you know, it stops the spin cycle. It helps you get a bit of respite, if you know if something is whizzing around in your head like that tumble dryer type effect. It gives you a bit of respite from that. And like I say, you look at it, and you get some different perspective. And just the energy of writing it, getting it out of you releases something, I think.   N.W Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Listeners won't know but I'm a regular in your workshops, and really kind of learned the power of journaling over the past year and a half, two years. I think there's also something about the kinds of patterns spotting where I've probably identified things that come up again and again and again. And I have no idea that they were quite so regularly going to be coming up, you know, like, I knew that they'd been niggling away for a while. But when I look back, I think, oh, you know, how is that theme or things related to it continue to resurface, then there's a chance to kind of dig deeper into that.   C.P And also, depending on how you use journaling, and like you say, if you're the sort of person who will look back and reflect over a period of time, there's so much you can learn. You know, you can see you're likely to see themes and recurring patterns and recurring dynamics and start to see, oh, there's a one common thing here and that's me. So it's not saying everything's my fault, but it's starting to see that there's something about the way I'm reacting or creating something, you know, that is relevant. And yeah, but there's, there's so many benefits, we could spend probably hours talking about all the benefits.   N.W And so I mean, what's been your own journey with journaling? Have you always journaled or is it something that you've particularly found that has evolved over recent years?   C.P It's definitely evolved. I probably started journaling properly about, I'm gonna say 10 years ago, without overthinking it too much. But I was in therapy at the time. And my therapist recommended, it was called something like freeform writing for therapeutic something another at the Gestalt centre. I think she still runs it, actually. And I thought, Oh, she's just trying to get a course out of me. I was quite cynical, honestly, because I just thought, oh, writing is not my thing. Because my sister was always the writer and I was more sort of arty, whereas we've swapped which is really interesting over the years. So I went to this writing thing, thinking a bit, feeling a little bit. And I absolutely loved it. And I use some of what I experienced in that workshop as my inspiration for the way I run workshops, because there's a lot of pair work, and it's all about just getting stuff down and sharing it because we're all the same underneath. We've all got the same neuroses and anxieties, and, you know, hopes and dreams, you know, we're not as different as we think we are. And when you share with people, which is what I do in my workshops with the journaling, it's amazing how people connect, and it's almost like I can, I can see the relief sometimes with people where they're like, oh, it's not just me, you know, whatever it is. Sorry, back to my journey. So yeah, I did that a weekend and I just loved it. I made everybody I knew do writing with me, free writing, I suppose, essentially where you just let go into the pen and just keep going. And then I started the workshops. But yeah, so on a personal level, it was just that weekend, the stuff you know, and I always talk about stuff with a little asterisk, which is just all the pent up, unprocessed, unfelt, unacknowledged feelings, emotional responses, you know, all this stuff in me that had nowhere to go, I didn't even know it didn't have anywhere to go. But I realised during that weekend of writing, it's like oh wow there's stuff that needs to come out here. It was really dark. And there was a lot of swearing, and but it was all, you know, you could kind of just go for it. And I really got into it after that. So I'd say that was you know, I had a diary when I was a kid. But it was so dull. I kept one page of it just to remind me how dull it was. I had tea, I went to bed, went to school. It was so dull, I didn't get it. So yeah, and like you say, evolve it, you know, it has really evolved my journaling. And funnily enough, recently, I was reflecting, I haven't journaled anywhere near as much in the last year or so, but I've written a lot more. And I've sort of realised that my journaling has more evolved into writing. So I get the same, I think I get the same thing out of writing that I did out of journaling, it has definitely changed over time. Yeah.   N.W And so for any facilitators listening who haven't tried journaling before, or perhaps are doing it but aren't aware they're doing it, what would you suggest in terms of getting started, you know, just having a go?    C.P Well if they're doing it, and they're not aware they're doing it, then they don't need to do anything, I'd say. It doesn't really matter, I don't think what you call it. If you, if people haven't tried it, there's a few ways in, one of them is just to pick a, first of all, pick a time that works for you, don't try and do it, don't sort of fall into that, oh, I should be able to get up in the morning and at least do half an hour, you know, that never works. So find a time that works for you. It could be on the hoof, you know, it could be like five minutes at lunchtime if you have a lunchtime. So just a time that works for you, just pick you know, think tomorrow when is going to be a good time and pick that moment. And then just write for five minutes. Maybe just write about how the day has been so far. Just just to get started. I mean, a really good prompt is “I noticed” and Nikki, you would have heard me use that before in workshops. But it's a really interesting one because it's completely different. If you just write what did I do today, or it brings up completely different things I notice. So I noticed as a good prompt, I guess it depends what people want to get out of it. Because I'd say whilst ultimately just pick up a pen and write some stuff down. If you're wanting to journal in a way like you do, where you write over a period of time and then you review back and you're looking to learn about yourself or you know your habits, how you do things and learn about where you can make your life easier, really, I'm not going to say improved because I think we're all fine just as we are. But then that's a very different. You might want to be a bit more regular and a little bit more, I'm going to leave it for a month and then I'm going to look back and see what's there. Personally for me, the journaling I've done the most is what I call medicinal journaling, which is basically in the moment. So if you're feeling stressed or anxious or angry, anything that's a bit difficult. I mean some people find excitement difficult so let's throw that in there as well. You know that in the moment ,what's going on? Why am I feeling anxious? Sometimes we don't know. So that's when I am most likely to pick up my journal or get my phone out if I'm out and about and type, you know, just type it in and just describe it. You know, where is it in your body, how you feeling? What's going on? Just what's going on in your life because it can be so obvious sometimes, but you don't see it always. But when you start writing it down, it will pop up. And you'll go, Oh, yes, that's what this is about. So that's really helpful to know. Because then you can do something about it. So medicinal. But then, you know, I say that I started doing that after I had journaled more regularly. So maybe, maybe it's not easy to start with that? I don't know. But yeah, I think it does depend on what you want to journal for. But yeah, I think just start really small is my main bit of advice, because if I had a penny for everybody who said, I can do at least half an hour, and I can get up a bit earlier, that's not much to ask, well, but it's the same with any habit and you don't do it, you might do it for a few days, but then you'll stop. And then you'll feel bad because you've stopped and then you won't do it again. So start with a minute, you know, literally just go a minute in the morning and just go, how am I feeling today? Just name it.   N.W And I think there's definitely something powerful about getting started as well, actually finding the minute to put the pen to the page, sometimes it then becomes an hour and you hadn't realised, but you would never have intentionally carved out an hour to do it. It's just that once it starts Oh, I can't stop now, maybe that's just me, but.   C.P Yeah, no, that's absolutely what happens. But if you said, you said I'm going to do an hour, you'd be like, Oh, God, I don't want to do that. That's too much. I've got too much to do, blah, blah, blah.    N.W And so thinking more about our roles as Facilitators, and working with groups, I mean, obviously, you've you've mentioned pair work already. But often we're in a situation where we're trying to get people to talk to each other and to interact better. So with that in mind, why would you encourage Facilitators to consider bringing writing activities into a group situation?   C.P Well, I guess the most obvious place, I would think it would be a great thing would be in a sort of icebreaker context. Because I just think, you know, I've been on lots of workshops, and I've run lots of workshops. And you know, and, and so is everybody listening to this, and so have you, you know, and good ice breaking is so powerful, can change the whole session, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, when people turn up, one of my favourite exercises is what I call ‘The Whine Bar', which I think you've done, which is just to have a good moan and a good whine about anything in your life, just get it all out. Because I think this is half the problem. We don't allow ourselves to be honest, even with ourselves. And I think journaling has really helped me with that actually going back to your earlier question. So really kind of just getting stuff out. So that's a nice thing to do. Because it just allows people, it's kind of going you're allowed to be human here, I think, I mean I didn't plan it. I didn't think about it before I did this exercise. But on reflection, I think that's part of it. So it's a real, you're allowed to be human, you're allowed to moan. Doesn't mean you're gonna dwell in it for the rest of the session or whatever, but you're just allowed to get it out. And then by putting people in pairs to share, and I always invite people to either share what they wrote, or just talk about how it was because not everybody wants to do that, obviously. And there's just, I think it's, there's just something magical that happens, because when people come back, and I see their faces in person as well, people have such an energy, most, you know, 99% of the time. And you can see they shared something with their fellow human being. Even I mean, I don't know, because I don't get to hear what people say to each other. But it's just that humaneness. It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being human, whether it's like, oh God, I felt like it was, like I say, so it's that whole it wasn't just me that, you know, is crazed about the election, or, you know, whatever, or that feels like I'm gonna lose my mind on a daily basis, or whatever it is. And that privacy of the pair, which again, I know, I don't need to tell this to this audience, because you'll all know about, you know, the individual, you know, if you put people in threes, they just won't share as much and somebody could still not talk. Whereas pairs, people have to say something, even if it's, I don't want to say anything. And there's something about that that's liberating. It's kind of like, Yeah, you don't have to fine. So I just, yeah, like I say, when I see those faces, when people come back, it's a beautiful thing. And, and they've just shared something more than, you know, knocking about an idea. And I don't think there's any context that is out of bounds for that, I guess, if you're dealing with people, maybe where people are struggling with mental health, for example, if you knew, if it's an explicit situation where that's being talked about or worked on, I guess you would kind of maybe approach it slightly differently. I probably still do the same kind of thing, but maybe in a slightly different way. But so I think it's really powerful for that and as we work through a workshop, you know,it just continues to do that same thing. People are seen and heard, you know, and people can go a whole year without being seen and heard and you know, immediately even if it's irrelevant to the topic, I think that's the thing as well. It's just the magic of that being seen and heard and listened to and witnessing somebody else, you know, you get to witness somebody else and realise, again, that we're all human and flawed, worried we're getting it wrong, desperate to get it right, all of that nonsense, you know, we realise that it's not just us.   N.W What is it you say about kind of starting that with some writing rather than just saying, you know, have a good whine to your partner, whatever? What is it about the writing part of it that you think particularly allows for those, that kind of opening up?   C.P Yeah, that's a good question. So I think when you write stuff down, you can just be much more honest than if you were speaking out loud. You know, if I asked you a question, and you gave me the answer, or I said to you write down what you think about, you're going to be much more, again, 99%, the time you're going to be, everyone's going to be much more honest, in what they write down on a piece of paper, because it's private, it's for them. And I always say to people, you know, write it for yourself, first decide afterwards, if you want to share any of it or not. So it is it's that honesty, it's that, you know, and I can still, I can still edit myself and journal. And I think we might have even had this conversation, but it's still possible to completely be editing yourself, but to suddenly realise I'm still editing what I think and what I'm allowed to say. And journaling does give you that freedom and just think you're gonna, you're going to be more honest. And then when you share it, you're more likely to sort of take a bit of a risk. And people are often quite surprised by what they write down, things that they haven't seen will come out. So people want to share that, they want to go Oh, God, I can't believe I wrote that. I can't believe that, I thought I dealt with that thing. But here it is. And it's, they want to share what surprised them, I think.    N.W And so you've talked about the wine bar,as a kind of opener activity. What other sort of favourite activities do you have that you use with groups?   C.P Well, as you well know, ‘what does the radiator think?' is probably my favourite, which is where we use dialoguing, which is a journaling technique. It's so powerful and maybe you can say something about your experience. So let's say we've just written about, let's go to the New Year workshop, and you've just written about the year gone by and reflected on this that and the other. And then I'll invite you to sort of go pick an object, and I'm sitting here looking and there's, I'm at my friend's house, he's got lots of gold animals. That's a whole nother story. Anyway, there's a golden parrot sitting there on this lamp, you know, and I might choose, you know, you just pick an object that you kind of are drawn to. And then I'll say right now what does the parrot think about what you've just written. So now I write as if I'm the parrot having just observed me writing about what I've just written about. And it just you have to try it if you're listening, because it's just endlessly useful. And you could literally, every object in your room, every inanimate object in your room, a door, a lamp, ironing board, it doesn't matter what it is, but you'll get something different from each of those things. And a good example of that, is when people pick plants, or trees or flowers, they tend to have like a nurturing voice. So it accesses this nurturing part of them that is always there. Of course, it's always there, but they wouldn't have found that bit of them in another way. I mean, there probably are other ways to find that, but it's just a really quick and easy way. So people will be giving themselves this amazing advice that's going to help them from a plant sitting on their desk. And then they're kind of going oh yeah, I can do this for myself, you know, and it's, it's so powerful. And the perspectives that one gets, I mean, a really good example of this, and it might be a little bit personal, but it was so good that I just have to share it. So I have this whole fantasy family where and it's a really good thing to do for journaling actually where you just pick people who would be your ideal uncle or your ideal grandparents or whatever, cousin ,second cousin, I've got a whole load. And that's just a fun thing to do anyway, it's like a game I made up one Christmas I think just like fantasy family, who would they be? And then I've a few times I've used them in journaling as another dialoguing thing because obviously you don't know those people but you know if you've picked somebody you're familiar with. So Charles and Caroline from Little House on the Prairie are my fantasy parents, probably everybody's fantasy parents assuming people know who they are. So the other day I was really struggling, I've, you know, we've all got these situations where it's just there's no easy answer sometimes and you have to sort of accept there's nothing I can do about this right now. I just have to be within. So I wrote to Caroline and Charles. So what should I do, like what I didn't really say that much about the situation but what should I do? And they replied, and Caroline just went,the mother obviously, she just went go lie down dear, go upstairs and lie down for a bit. Just forget about it. And I was and I know that sounds so simple, because I've had much more complicated and fascinating dialogues with characters but it was exactly what I needed. I just needed to be told just stop, just stop. And that was the end of that conversation. I didn't need anything else. It was like, oh, yeah, and it was so, so useful. So it's just got so many potential uses from something, you know, like that to, to getting the radiator to say to you, you know, you're over worrying about this, just get a grip. Or, whatever it is, you know. And in fact, what was it the other day? Oh, it was something Yeah, it was the radiator. It was something about that the radiator was saying, you know, I'm stuck here on the wall, I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere, but you can, but you feel the same as me. And you know, something like that. It's just kind of like Oh god yeah, there's a real, it really helps to pin down that feeling. Obviously, you can relate that into whatever your session is about. You can play around with it. Let's say you're facilitating something about a strategy for a business, you know, you can ask the business what it thinks. So you could get everybody to talk about it, write about it, whatever about it, and then go right now think about the business, the product, what does the product think, and again, the stuff that can come out of that just can be amazing. So it's got no bounds, that exercise and I will never tire of talking about how fabulous it is.   N.W In fact, some listeners, if they were there, might remember the very first time I encountered that specific exercise was in an IAF conference workshop.    C.P Oh, yes.    N.W We were in the depths of lockdown.    C.P Yes, we were. N.W My lovely radiator was very kind to me and said, you know, that it could see me kind of struggling away being stuck on my own computer. And you know, all of the different things I was doing. And I mean, it sounds, it feels crazy to talk about it in this way. But I would say that it just gave that different perspective. And I think one of the things that I do more regularly, like one of the activities I would do in journaling, is more of a kind of dialoguing now, but it's even more like a conversation with myself. So I'm imagining there's somebody else there going, So why is that? You know, could you tell me a bit about that? You know, again, it sounds like talking to yourself, but   C.P It kind of is? Yeah, it kind of is really it's kind of, but it's a much more sort of constructive way to talk to yourself.   N.W Yeah and to work through things I think as well. Like it's progressive, isn't it, it helps me certainly get out of a loop. And I can imagine, as you said, in a business scenario, or you know, work scenario, you can get quite entrenched in your own role in something and actually pulling in that different perspective and going, you know, what does the customer think? What does the factory think? Whatever it is just kind of shakes that up a little bit. Okay. So then, I mean, we've talked quite a lot there about different things that a facilitator could do to introduce some writing into their workshops. Have you got any sort of thoughts or advice on how to convince clients that it's a good idea? You know, if you've got any suggestions for that?   C.P Do you mean in terms of a proposal for a workshop?    N.W Yeah, like giving an outline or getting people to buy into it once you're in, in that scenario?   C.P But well I think that I'm not sure I'm gonna cleanly answer this question. But I can tell you that if you're in the situation, and you're already there, it's kind of, I mean, again, I think the whole, you know, I've read quite a lot about sort of with mental health and writing and well being and that kind of thing. And you do have to be a bit more careful. But I think as long as you name everything, it's fine. But I did a team building workshop with some pharmaceutical sales reps who were not impressed when it was announced that I was there to do some writing journaling with them, there was lots of folded arms. And it was quite a scary looking room. But I thought, Well, I haven't got anything else so this is what we're doing. And when it just does the work for you, you know, even the first exercise I just said to them, just write about everything you've done to get here this morning. And they were literally all of them didn't stop the pen moving. And I think that's an interesting point, actually, that people who don't normally reflect or don't normally write either or tend to take to it easier, because there's nothing in their way. Whereas you'll find people who write, if you had a group of writers in the room, they'll struggle much more with it from my experience, because they're worried about how they write, they're thinking more about what they're writing and how they're writing it, versus just getting stuff out. So that's an interesting thing to think about. But I still think just sort of go for it. But yeah, they, you know, their reflections and of course, again, I put them in pairs and this was the first just the first thing I did after lockdown in person. And you know, just them getting together in person talking about, you can feel the energy in the room that they just you have to take a leap I think with it sometimes because you're not gonna get people's buy in and people aren't gonna go Oh, yes, please I'd love to do that. It's like, Just do it. And then see what happens. And yeah, there's no situation I dont think I wouldn't do it. And I realised I forgot what your question was.   N.W It was just more about convincing clients as well. Like if they give an outline, this is what we're going to be doing. How would you propose, particularly if they'd said we want everyone to talk to each other lots. And intuitively, you might assume that if say everyone's writing, they're not really interacting, but you know, we've discussed that a bit, but how?   C.P Well I guess it is that isn't it, it's like you're gonna get everybody's voice heard in the room guaranteed because you're gonna, A, like we were talking about earlier, they're going to be more honest, when they write stuff down, then when they share, they're going to probably say something slightly different, that's more connecting, not necessarily, but they might, and everybody's voice will be heard, you know, not necessarily by the whole room. But again, when I've done workshops, you know, with some very quiet people, what's brilliant is, is when you come back from a pair, I'm thinking particularly about zoom here, I guess, because I've done more of it in the last few years. And then people will speak for the other people, they'll say, oh, so and so wrote this really interesting thing about such and such, and that person would have never necessarily volunteered to have it. But that person then will share for them and, and you can see, they're quite happy for that to happen. I mean, I guess this could happen that somebody wasn't happy, but I've never seen that happen. So I think that guaranteed to get voices heard for people to open their mouths and speak words, you know, and be involved and get them involved, right from the get go to me would be, that's, that's the thing I would try and sell. But if I felt like they were going to be resistant, I probably just call it something else and not go into detail about what it was, you know, just call it something innocuous and then bust it out when you get there.   N.W And are there any sort of facilitation tools or frameworks that you think can particularly work well, with journaling and writing activities kind of built into them?   C.P Yeah, well, I think so I have done coaching and I've used journaling, slash writing with coaching and that you can you know, the GROW Model, obviously, the most straightforward of all the coaching models and people know that model, you can sort of follow that with a situation. So that's how I'm going to self coach myself, that's sort of my go to, apart from medicinal journaling I talked about earlier. So literally, with the GROW, so goal, you know, it's like, what, what's the situation you're in? What do you want to happen? write about that, then the reality bits really interesting, because you can look back at what you've written, and kind of go through and go, Well, what's actually real here? What's my assumption? What, what's my generalisation? What's my judgement I'm making, in what I've just written? And that again, you can see that much easier than if you try and just say it or think it, you know, you just can't separate it out in that way. And normally, by that point, to be honest, I know, in my experience, and I know other people's as well, you already know what you need to do before you've even got probably even sometimes to reality. So that model is quite good. And then of course, if you do carry on options, you can write about options, you can ask the radiator, or whatever it is you choose, in that moment. The problem itself, ask the problem itself, what it would do?, you know, again, using those sorts of things for the options, and then the what's next, obviously, you just have to pick that. But so I guess in a coaching way that model, but you can pretty much use it with any model, I think, to be honest, because you just instead of talking about or brainstorming or whatever, you can just insert the writing where you would put brainstorming or just getting down the facts of the situation, you know, that people are in so.   N.W Great well, thank you so much Claire . I think that's probably the sort of end of my questions, and I have to kind of curve myself otherwise, I could keep asking all day, which as you know, I'm quite prone to doing. But if anyone who's been listening would like to find out more about your work or get in touch with you, what's the best place that they can do that?   C.P ClairePearce.uk. So it's CLAIRE, and then Pearce is PEARCE .uk There's no code it is specifically just UK. I've got two names that need spelling out, which is unfortunate. I have thought about changing my name but.   N.W That would be extreme.    C.P Anyway, that's where you know, my email is and all of that stuff.   N.W  And thank you again, it's been really great to chat to you today.   C.P No problem. It's been a pleasure. And I hope some of that was useful for people and I'm very happy to answer people's questions if they want to ask me anything about it.   Outro    H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.    N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links are on our website facilitationstories.com   H.J And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.    N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?    H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.   N.W Then send us an email at podcast@IAF-EnglandWales.org   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W Until then, thank you for listening.

FS69 Social Presencing Theater with Rosie Cripps   In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Cripps, a facilitator and evaluator who helps build social movements and evaluate complex systems, about Social Presencing Theater. They talk about: What Social Presencing Theater is, its origins and some of the tools and techniques that sit under it; The role of the facilitator in creating psychological safety and responding in the moment without knowing the details of the issue being explored; How Rosie first experienced Social Presencing Theater and what interested her about it; “with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.” A workshop that Rosie ran with Ann Nkune at the IAF England and Wales conference using the tool “Stuck”; “Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently”. How this experience led Rosie to attending a recent Social Presencing Theater course and the learning from that experience; Rosie's thoughts on how to take this forward, including a call out for collaborators; A full transcript is below. Links Today's guest: Rosie Cripps on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosie-cripps/ Today's subject Presencing Institute: https://presencinginstitute.org/ U School: https://www.u-school.org/ Arawana Hayashi Social Presencing Theater website: https://arawanahayashi.com/spt/ Social Presencing Theater The Art of Making a True Move (book), Arawana Hayashi   To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/ And to email us: podcast@iaf-englandwales.org IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales The Facilitation Stories Team Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/ Nikki Wilson:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/ Transcript N.W Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (N.W), and my guest today is Rosie Cripps (R.C). So welcome Rosie.   R.C Hi, thank you for having me.   N.W So to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?   R.C Yeah. So I'm a facilitator and an evaluator. I help build inclusive community-led movements and as part of this, so I've helped teach architecture students, Appreciative Inquiry, and I've been exploring the idea of universities as anchor organisations to help communities become resilient and self-sustaining. And I evaluate kind of complex, messy systems. And I usually do that using outcome harvesting, which uses lots of facilitation. So in summary, I kind of help build social movements and evaluate complex systems.   N.W Great. And so today, we're going to be talking about Social Presencing Theater. So for listeners who don't know what it is, Please, could you tell us a little bit more about it, and how a typical session might work?   R.C Okay, so this is very different from my day to day work. First of all, Social Presencing Theater uses mindfulness, movement, and reflection, to create quite dramatic shifts in perspective. So it can be used at an individual level, or with teams, with big organisations, or in quite complex systems around social justice issues, or climate change, or something like that. It was created by Arawana Hayashi, and she's a dance teacher. But it's mainly been applied across sectors by someone called Otto Scharmer. He's an academic at MIT and he basically coded what are the principles of innovation, and he turned them into a theory called ‘Theory U'. And that's all open source, because he wants as many people as possible to be tackling the complex issues of our time. But they together, Otto and Arawana, they co founded the Presencing Institute, and they use Social Presencing Theater as a means for helping people to progress past habitual thought patterns and into these principles of innovation in whatever context they're in. So I personally find Social Presencing powerful, because you can work through very kind of tricky issues where we might feel stuck or unable to move forward very quickly, sometimes taking you to a place of being more stuck. But at least you have different insight. But without having to reveal at any point, what the issue is or what the tricky situation is. And it can be also very bonding for the people who are doing it. So your group that you're working with, it's very bonding, even if you're working with a complete group of strangers.   N.W And so how might a typical session run?   R.C Yeah, a typical session. So this is tricky, because I'm new to it. And there's also lots of different methods that sit under it. Some individual based tools and techniques, and some are for very large groups. But they think the way that Otto Scharmer mainly uses it with kind of fortune 500 companies and big organisations is he uses something called 4D mapping, which was co created by I think Otto Scharmer, and Arawana. And people who also use organisational constellations, and people who use presencing more generally. And 4D mapping, basically, you map out a system using people. And then you sense together a different potential future for that system. So it allows you to see in kind of 3D what the system is currently looking like, and how it could potentially shift. And that can be really powerful. And systems mapping, because it's very malleable. I like traditionally in systems mapping, I would kind of draw out a system, and it's very fixed. Whereas in this situation, you're sensing together as a group, where are the opportunities for movement, and that can give a lot of insights into what should change.   N.W Okay. And so what would the role of the facilitator be in that environment? And how would that be different from other types of facilitation? Would you say?   R.C Yeah, I think, I think in that context, because you don't always know what the actual topic is, there's kind of two parts to it. So one is it's about making the situation safe, because I think generally, we're not used to moving as a society. We're not used to using movement and so the psychological safety is really important. And then the other aspect is you're going in blind. So you're kind of sensing the room as opposed to, in a normal situation, you can be kind of tracking the flow of the room by listening to people in their conversation them expressing what's, what's going on. Whereas in this context, it's much more about sensing what's happening in the room. And responding to that in that moment. So it's quite different actually supposed to be a lot more emotionally responsive to what they would normally be as a facilitator, I think.   N.W And, and as you've said, this is quite different to the kind of tools and techniques and facilitation work you'd normally do. So when did you first come across Social Presencing Theater? And what was it that interested you about it?   R.C So I was reflecting back recently about which of the workshops and where are the places in my life where I've had the biggest personal transformational shifts, and which have been the workshops that have made those shifts last, and they've all involved movement. And so there's two workshops I've been to in my life. The first was in my early 20s, which is kind of a week-long workshop which involved movement. And, again, involved no talking. And then I volunteered at the Never Done Before Festival, which is run by Myriam Hadnes's community, and just stumbled across a Social Presencing Theater Workshop. And in that workshop, it was online, it was only like an hour, I think.  It was people from all over the world who had never met before. And yet, even in that very short amount of time, we just did some small movements.You know, just sat at my desk, and then also some group movements just in breakout rooms, and it totally shifted my perspective. And I felt incredibly close to the people that I'd been working with, even though I'd never met them before and it was all through a computer. So it kind of made me think, Okay, I'm personally finding this stuff really powerful and interesting. But is that you know, other people's experiences. And before kind of, like throwing myself into that, I guess I really wanted to explore that further, and see if other people were getting these shifts and transformations as well. Which is why, and then I started talking to Megan Evans, he's been a kind of mentor to me, and to Ann Nkune, who I know, to a shared love of Appreciative Inquiry and time to think. So I just literally read Arawana's book, and then suggested to Ann that we run a session at the IAF Conference, which we did this year. So that's kind of how I came to it, it's not been a planned route. But I found it personally very powerful. And it's also linked in to actually, after I had children, I started dancing. And I had a complete shift really, again, in my perspective, when I just I think I lived so much in my mind, when I started dancing, I had this dance teacher who didn't teach us kind of choreographed moves, he just taught us how our body wanted to move. And I didn't know if you can actually even call it dance, it's probably just me moving around terribly, but I found it really powerful and healing, just getting out of my head and into my body. And I think that's a lot of what this is about. It's about just getting rid of those habitual thought patterns and kind of living in our minds all the time. And being in our bodies and noticing that our bodies have a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we just waste, we just waste. And the thing I found with social presencing, is we spend so much time talking especially you know, as in groups, as facilitators, we see so much talk and conversation. Whereas with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.   N.W Okay. And so you've mentioned that you ran a session at this year's IAF England and Wales conference,with Ann Nkune, and so could you tell us a little bit more about that?   R.C Yeah, so I mentioned earlier, there's, there's quite a lot of tools that sit under social presencing theater. So our IAF conference workshop focused around a method called ‘stuck' and in that you take a situation where you're not moving or thriving or something's not moving forward, or maybe you're just kind of stuck in your comfort zone and you you're not really willing to step out. And you embody that situation in whatever form you want to take. You form a statue and you call that sculpture one and then you kind of sense in your body you let yourself move to a different future. that wants to emerge through you. You move to a second position, and then you call that sculpture two, and you give each sculpture a phrase. And that in itself sounds very bizarre, but is very powerful. So for instance, the other day, I had a situation where I had to report a huge amount of data to a group of people. And I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed. And so I put myself in this stuck position where I had my kind of arms up in front of my head, and was almost crouching down, and my word was overwhelmed. And then I moved into a second position, which gave me a lot of clarity. And I had another phrase, which was, they need to make sense of it. And so I in my head, I've been getting stuck over and over with trying to make sense of all these overwhelming amounts of data, when in actual fact, it kind of shift the perspective straight way for me in that I didn't need to be making sense, but I just needed to be presenting them with data. So that's just an example of where you might use stuck. So we use stuck. And then you start off working through your own stuck practices, even from sculpture one to sculpture two. And then you extend that out as a group. So in our workshop, and in most social presencing situations, we don't at any point, know what issue someone is working through. So you'll do your sculpture one to sculpture two on your own, and then you extend that out as a group without explaining what it is that you're working through. And the other people in our group will help extend out our stuck situation. So they become other players in the system. And they help enhance that feeling of stuck, and also give a different perspective on it. So So in my situation where I was stuck with feeling overwhelmed with all this data, I might have someone standing in front of me who's representing all the hundreds of interviews that I've done. And then I might have someone stood behind me, who is representing the people that I have to show all this data to. And then we would move together as a group, so they wouldn't know what this issue is about at all, but they might look at me and say, You look pained or, or I'm seeing confusion, something like that. And then we'd all move together with no idea where each other we're going to move or any sense of where we should move, we just move wherever feels right at the time. And then we'll move collectively together into a second sculpture. And then again, they'll give their perspective on the situation. So they might say, you know, you look freed or relieved or something like that. And the other people's insights can be just as valuable as your own. And I think for me, and our IAF session, that was what people found most powerful is working through something as a group, without anyone in the group knowing what it was about, except for that one individual. And even though as a group members, for example, I've done this a number of times, even in situations where I don't know what the person's going through, I can personally find it very moving as well. I think just by moving together as a group is very bonding in itself and illuminating. So we did that at the IAF conference, we did this stuck on our own and then stuck as a group. And then we use time to think, to reflect on what those processes felt like to the groups involved.   N.W Okay, and so you've mentioned, I think that this session was for you a bit of an exploration of how to use this. So what were your personal kind of takeaways from that session?   R.C I think there were a lot of takeaways, actually. I think the main thing was that it was something other people found powerful. So I went in thinking, okay, is this just me, in fact, I was there the night before in my hotel, and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? Because I'm going to a conference I've never been to before, co facilitating with someone I've never met before, on a subject that I've only read a book about. You know,I didn't know whether this is going to be something that anyone else would get anything from at all. So the main takeaway was, oh, wow, okay other people are finding this useful as well. And I think having spoken to a few people after the conference, they said, you know, it's one of the sessions where they were able to go deepest. And again, I think that's because they didn't have to talk about anything that they were kind of working through. So as a facilitator that's quite strange because you're kind of blind to all of that. But it's really nice to be able to create a space where people can work through some quite tricky personal issues. So yeah, there was that, that it was helpful. Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently. And that, you know, someone else mentioned that there's something that they've been talking to people about for months and months and months, and just couldn't see a way out of this situation that then had done that, and then could instantly see a way through. So I was like, Okay, great. I feel like it's, it's a useful tool. So that was the main thing. I also noticed that maybe it isn't for everyone, and getting the context is going to be right. And I think for Ann and I, we both kind of felt that we recognise that it was probably more powerful, like using movement is more powerful than we originally expected. And thinking about how we prepare the room for the emotions, it can trigger as well, I think is quite important. But yeah, just the overwhelming thing I took away was the kind of desire to experiment with other people more, to try it out with other people more. And so then that evening, I think went back to my hotel room and signed up to a course in Berlin to properly train in it.   N.W Great. And so you've neatly led into my next question, really, about that course, and what happened on the course? And what did you learn there?   R.C Yeah, so the course was a two day course with Arawana Hayashi herself. So that was really exciting, because she kind of founded it all. And it was with 43 other people from all over the world, actually, but mainly from Europe. I think there were four people from the UK. And we went through all the different types of techniques, which she describes in her book called Social Presencing Theater. And yeah, it was, it was just incredibly insightful. There were lots of different techniques that we tried out, some, you know, just on our own, some as a whole group of 43 people, some in small groups, all that can be used in different contexts. And again, I think by the second day all of us were just feeling like, why would you bother talking anymore? It just seems like such a waste of time, when you can kind of get so much clarity and connection with others in silence, you know, just by moving together. But it's called Social Presencing Theater, but it's not about theater, it is just about moving and embodying. There's no acting element to it. There's nothing theatrical actually about it at all. It's just a way of using, thinking with our bodies as well as our minds. Yeah. So the training was fantastic, gave me loads of ideas and met loads of connections, lots of people who were also thinking about using it in all kinds of leadership scenarios. And actually some massive issues about, you know, tackling climate change and deforestation in the Amazon and all these different frameworks, people using it for and all of them finding it ,yeah, a really interesting method of breaking just habitual thought patterns and approaches to situations and thinking about things really differently.   N.W Okay. And so I know that you, you weren't on the course very long ago. So this might be a difficult question to answer. But what are your current thoughts on how you might take it forward and put it into practice? Yeah,   R.C Yeah, so I think main thing at the moment, which is very much just a thought process, to help serve this, but Ann and I are thinking about experimenting, doing another session at London Lab, which is linked to the London IAF group. So we're thinking about doing that in maybe September or October. And I'm personally thinking about how I built it into my work with systems thinking and systems mapping. So it's part of the evaluation work I do, we do a lot of systems thinking work. And I think using it in that context is really helpful, because it's a really malleable way of looking at how we can change and shift systems, but also even the stuck practice, which is just within individuals. You know, through all my systems based work, the one thing that stands out is that unless we change people, you know, we can't change systems. And the stuck practice itself is a way of really helping people shift their perspective on their role within a system and what they can do individually to change things. So yeah, I'm thinking about how I can build into my work. And I'm also just looking for as many people as possible to collaborate with who'd like to experiment with Ann and I on this.   N.W Great. And you mentioned earlier that in your IAF session, you combined this with time to think, are there other kinds of facilitation tools and techniques that you think could work well alongside social presencing theater if you're building this out into something you would use in other contexts?   R.C Yeah, I would say on that, that Ann and I used time to think at the end of the session, and we were also thinking about it from an Appreciative Inquiry perspective, because that's what both of us use primarily in our work. Having said that, at the training, it really shifted my perspective, because I think one of the things which they tried to focus on with social presencing is, is moving out of these habitual thought patterns. So they just focus on what did you do? What did you see? What did you feel? And so I think probably, I wouldn't use time to think with it anymore, possibly, or maybe use elements of time to think that not, not use exactly the same principles. And I think that also relates back to the psychological safety element as well, you're never really conceptualising with anyone, what it is you're working through, maybe not even yourself. And I think that's actually helpful, because we get so bogged down in our thought patterns. So I think keeping it very just in the moment in your body, like touching, not overthinking anything is quite important with the process. So yeah, what tools would I use it with is possibly Appreciative Inquiry, maybe as a precursor to that. And then systems mapping and any group work where you're working through individual challenges collectively as a group, maybe it's support groups or something like that.   N.W That's great. So if listeners would like to find out more about social presencing theater, where should they look?   R.C Okay, so there's a book by Arawana Hayashi called social presencing theater. I think it's called The Art of Making a True move. There's also a website. So Arawana has a social presencing theater website, which is really interesting. And then there's also this wider context of ‘Theory U'. So Otto Scharmer, and Arawana have a website called the U-school, literally the letter U hyphen school. And that gives a wider framework to the work as well, which is, they have loads of open source training as well, which is really interesting, if anyone was interested in that.   N.W Brilliant and how about if people want to get in touch with you after this? Particularly as you've got a call out there for collaborators and fellow experimenters as it were.   R.C Yeah, probably just LinkedIn is best for me.   N.W Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. That's been really interesting. And I hope to hear more about where you, where you take this forward. But thank you for sharing where you've got to today so far.   R.C Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I look forward to hopefully hearing to some people who are interested in experimenting.   Outro   H.J So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.   N.W If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com   H.J To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.   N.W We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?   H.J Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about N.W Then send us an email at podcast@IAF-EnglandWales.org   H.J We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.   N.W  Until then, thank you for listening.

Solidarity 715, 10 July 2024. Articles include: After the election: organise for chaotic times A good moment, but a fraught future Gaza: ceasefire still urgent Incoherence and a dash of Lenin Conference rallies growing opposition in Israel The "exemplary" soldier and the woman beaten unconscious Police make pre-emptive JSO arrests Labour's Scottish gains are fragile Crash council-house programme needed Did Labour win on 4 July? Tata: unions must stay on alert Kino Eye: A Very English Scandal The far right in Germany: the AfD What Is To Be Done: a vital text, not a blueprint for bureaucracy Right-wing judges license Trump coups Biden: downplaying the “evil” in “lesser evil” We can't evade 4 November The roots of the contemporary far right GMB ballots at Amazon BHX4 SOAS student co-president faces expulsion threat Reclaim the Power organises for Drax climate camp New money for the junior doctors! PCS faces difficult fight on pay restoration Justine campaign scores a win “A Monroe Doctrine for Labour”: The AFL's position during the Mexican Revolution Cammell Laird workers defy anti-strike laws to show solidarity More online: https://workersliberty.org/publications/solidarity/solidarity-715-10-july-2024

Summer Solstice 2024 is accompanied this year by a full moon. The powerful merger of these two cosmic signs signify abundance, fertility, and life. Some people, however, are opposed to these things, instead worshiping scarcity, infertility, and death. Just Stop Oil, the supposedly independent activist group that is actually funded by Hollywood and the Oil industry, celebrated by vandalizing Stonehenge, which was built to preserve the solstice alignments.The same group has vandalized priceless works of art, broken into an airport and painted planes, and also recently attempted to destroy the Magna Carta, the first document putting into writing that the monarchy and its government were not above the law, and that the people were equals. What most of this has to do with oil is confusing, especially because the group uses petroleum products to carry out their activism, i.e., terrorism. But what it has to do with destroying human culture, history, law and order, and works of a wise antiquity, is clear. These are red guards masquerading as climate warriors just as the Satanic Temple's new pro-abortion video, where abortion is considered a religious sacrament and human right, is progressive activism hiding behind religious cover with the same goals as JSO or Extinction Rebellion, both financed by the ultra-wealthy, proving this is activism of the spoiled.-FREE ARCHIVE & RSS: https://www.spreaker.com/show/the-secret-teachingsTwitter: https://twitter.com/TST___RadioFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/thesecretteachingsWEBSITE (BOOKS, RESUBSCRIBE for early show access): http://thesecretteachings.infoPaypal: rdgable@yahoo.comCashApp: $rdgableBuy Me a Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/tstradioSUBSCRIBE TO NETWORK: http://aftermath.mediaEMAIL: rdgable@yahoo.com / TSTRadio@protonmail.com

Breaking - Robert reports on a Northside shooting off Moncrief Road, that has a stretch of the road blocked off while JSO investigates.

Vic Micolucci, former anchor and investigative reporter at WJXT Channel 4, is joining the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office in a community engagement role. He plans to connect with the community through face-to-face meetings, town halls, and digital platforms. He will use his news background to create multimedia content and newsletters to keep the public informed. Vic aims to build connections between law enforcement and the community, working closely with other law enforcement agencies and using social media to reach a wider audience. He also plans to hold town hall meetings in different zones to engage with residents directly. "My job is to be engaged and to know about what's going on."- Vic Micolucci View the full episode here: https://youtu.be/iKESkY4IX2w?si=UMmxEOdG76r6ZT_E Takeaways - Communications and Community Engagement Executive, serving with Sheriff T.K. Waters, JSO. - Vic Micolucci is transitioning from news to a community engagement role at the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office. - He plans to connect with the community through face-to-face meetings, town halls, and digital platforms. - Vic will use his news background to create multimedia content and newsletters to keep the public informed. - He aims to build connections between law enforcement and the community, working closely with other agencies and using social media to reach a wider audience. “Thank you for joining me on The Contrast Project Lounge Podcast. Don't miss out on future episodes! Make sure to subscribe to The Contrast Project Lounge Podcast on Spotify for Podcasters and our YouTube channel. or wherever you stream!” ** Music Tracks by Alex Grohl on Pixabay (Where applicable) ** Feel free to LIKE, SHARE AND COMMENT and SUBSCRIBE.  Follow The Contrast Project online: ** https://www.thecontrastproject.tv/ ** ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/TheContrastProjectJax ** ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/the_contrast_project/ ** https://www.instagram.com/contrast_podcast_backup/ ** https://www.threads.net/@contrast_podcast_backup ** ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/ContrastProjTV⁠⁠  ** https://www.youtube.com/@thecontrastproject7242 ** Streaming on all major platforms, including: ** https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-contrast-project ** https://spoti.fi/3D4BHdg ** https://apple.co/3PGNSEE ** https://ihr.fm/3riy010 ** https://bit.ly/Contrast_Radio_Public Amazon : https://amzn.to/45UmqsC  ** You can help support The Contrast Project Lounge Podcast by visiting:  https://ko-fi.com/contrastprojectloungepodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-contrast-project/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-contrast-project/support

This week's First Responder spotlight shines on JSO's Officer Kopp and Officer Johnson, after their takedown of an uninvited alligator at a Jacksonville home!

WOKV political analyst Dr. Michael Binder, from the UNF Public Opinion Research Lab, shares the latest poll results regarding the Jaguars' "Stadium of the Future" deal, and a proposal for a new city jail and JSO administrative offices.

Our First Responder of the Week is JSO's Officer Walter Umland, who recently received a medal for saving a 2-year-old's life.

Alexus updates the story on Josue Garriga, a former officer in JSO now facing a number of charges related to behaviors and activities with a Clay County minor.

Logan updates the earlier morning JSO investigation on N. Main Street, stemming from an alleged assault in the area that resulted in all lanes being closed down between Cedar Bay Rd. and Baisden Rd. JSO impounded a vehicle, and the area has since cleared and lanes are open now.

*BREAKING* Alexus reports on a developing story, as Department of Homeland Security investigators join JSO, FHP, and FDLE on the scene off Long Branch Road and CR217 near Maxville. We will continue to update this story as new details become available.

Logan reports on the discovery of human remains in a Magnolia Garden homeowner's yard. JSO is investigating.

Sheifalika reports on a shooting incident with injuries on Sunrise Road. JSO is actively investigating.

Logan reports on a 10-wk old infant death on Jacksonville's Westside. At present, foul play is NOT suspected, but JSO is investigating what may have caused this sleep-related tragedy.

Alexus reports on a shooting at a Southpoint home, where the victim had non-life threatening injuries. JSO has not released details on the suspected shooter besides that he is a white male, and possibly still armed.

Alexus reports on a child's death on Allison St. in the Woodstock neighborhood. At this time the cause is undetermined. JSO is investigating.

Alexus reports on a fatal Murray Hill shooting last night. JSO is investigating what lead up to the events resulting in the 17-year-old's death. No suspect information is available yet.

Alexus reports on a City Council proposal to allow the sheriff and other city officials to have a say on lawsuit settlements involving their respective agencies. This follows on the heels of a recent settlement vs. JSO that Sheriff Waters claimed to have no involvement with nor approval of.

Logan reports on an overnight Westside shooting, where a man suffered non-life-threatening injuries. JSO has not released a suspect description.

Logan reports on JSO methods & resources used in a recent drug sting operation, resulting in the arrest of more than a dozen suspected drug traffickers.

Alexus reports on an alleged DUI incident involving an Orange Park police officer. JSO did not detain the officer, despite eyewitness incident descriptions. The event has prompted an internal investigation.

Logan reports on a fatal crash in La Villa yesterday, when teens on a minibike collided with a dump truck. One rider died, the othe was hospitalized. JSO reminds divers that minibikes are not street legal vehicles.

Logan reports on a car-vs-pedestrian crash Wednesday night at the intersection of Cassat Ave & Plymouth St. The driver is an undercover JSO detective. The victim, a woman in her 60s, sustained serious injuries. JSO says she was not using a crosswalk, and the driver had a green light.

Host DJ JSO recaps recent news of louisiana rapper Dee-1 calling out rappers Meek Mill, Jim Jones and Rick Ross about their lyrical content, New Albums from Faise One, Mir Fontane & more...Start your own podcast today using our link and Get $20 Amazon gift card just for joining the Acast family. https://open.acast.com/invite/r/themicSupport the show (https://www.paypal.me/themicradio) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Logan reports on a shooting incident at Bucknell Ave. and Rutgers Rd. in Highlands. A man sitting in his car was fatally wounded when shots were fired from another vehicle, before the suspect drove away. JSO reports recovering more than 60 rifle shell casings from the scene.

First Responder Friday recognizes Daniel Ray, from the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Motorcycle Unit. Nominated by Lisa, Officer Ray is described as "...someone who will do anything, for anyone, any time." Ray has been with JSO for 13 years, the last 3 in the motorcycle unit. Additionally, he is an instructor in the S.M.A.R.T. motorcycle safety training course, and frequently participates in community outreach programs. Kids love it when he answers questions about being a motorcycle officer. Thanks for your service to the community, Officer Ray!

Just Stop Oil is a group focused on climate change. So what were they doing blocking the path of a coachload of migrants last week? It all has to do with the effects of a warming world and predictions about the displacement of millions of people. In this episode, Richard Hames follows JSO activists as […]

Připomenou 60 let od smrti Édith Piaf. zavedou vás do jednoho z nejkrásnějších ukrajinských měst Oděsy. A představí sochaře a pedagoga Karla Vogela, který pocházel z Česka, ale nakonec zakotvil ve Velké Británii. Průvodkyní vám bude Jitka Malá.

DJ JSO discusses 3 Keys for Success, the process and share his insights on the topic.Start your own podcast today using our link and Get $20 Amazon gift card just for joining the Acast family. https://open.acast.com/invite/r/themicSupport the show (https://www.paypal.me/themicradio) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're still in the thick of it, recording hours after Dale's morning protesting with Just Stop Oil on Parliament Westminster.  Hear first hand from the ‘megaphone wielding eco-zealot' (thanks Daily Mail).  Ian decided to cheer Dale up with some comments about the protest from social media, and we discussed some of the most common ‘whataboutery' related to JSO busting some myths as we go.  Also - hear what happened when Dale met Piers Morgan.

The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is investigating a case where a woman was shot and then dropped off at a local hospital overnight Wednesday. She died hours later. Her family identified her as #AniyahWomack, 19. Redding said Womack was supposed to be starting a new job on Wednesday. Womack's sister told News4JAX she was the life of the party and didn't deserve to be left at the hospital alone. The family is asking for prayers and for anyone with information to come forward and call JSO. If you'd like to contribute to Womack's funeral costs, you can do so on her family's GoFundMe page. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leah-gordone/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leah-gordone/support

This week on Breaking Battlegrounds, we are joined by Congressman John Rutherford of Florida's Fifth Congressional District and Vincent Vernuccio, a senior fellow at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.-John Rutherford (FL-05) is serving his third term in the U.S. House of Representatives. He sits on the House Ethics Committee and House Appropriations Committee, where he serves on three subcommittees: Homeland Security, Military Construction and Veterans Affairs, and Transportation and Housing and Urban Development.John has lived in Jacksonville, Florida since 1958, and attended Florida Junior College and Florida State University where he studied Criminology. He is a graduate of the FBI National Academy, 171st Session and the National Executive Institute. He began his career in law enforcement in 1974 as a patrolman in the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office, working his way up through the JSO where he eventually served as Director.In 2003, 2007, and 2011, John was elected Sheriff of Duval County. For three terms and twelve years, John ran a 3,200 employee office, and due to his effective leadership, homicide and overall violent crime in Jacksonville dropped to a 40-year low. Using a model of intelligence-led and community-based policing, John and his team of law enforcement professionals dramatically improved neighborhoods and prevented crime throughout the community. He also made the mental health component of the criminal justice system a priority, reducing the recidivism rates of the mentally ill and facilitating their treatment. John also served as Chair of the Legislative Committee for Florida Sheriff's Association, where he advocated before the legislature for policies that strengthened constitutional rights, supported our law enforcement, and enhanced public safety across the state.John has been happily married to his wonderful wife Pat for fifty years. They enjoy their two children, six grandchildren and great grandson, and they are also devoted members of Assumption Catholic Church in Jacksonville.-F. Vincent Vernuccio is a senior fellow at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy. He served as the Mackinac Center's director of labor policy between 2012 and 2017.Vernuccio is a graduate of the Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor, Mich. Under President George W. Bush he served as special assistant to the assistant secretary for administration and management in the Department of Labor.Vernuccio has published articles and op-eds in such newspapers and magazines as The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Investor's Business Daily, The Washington Times, National Review, Forbes and The American Spectator. He has been cited in several books, and he is a frequent contributor on national television and radio shows, such as "Your World" with Neil Cavuto and Varney and Company.Vernuccio is a sought-after voice on labor panels nationally and in Washington, D.C. and as a regular guest on Fox News channels.He has advised senators and congressmen on a multitude of labor-related issues. He testified before the United States House of Representatives Subcommittee on Federal Workforce, Postal Service and Labor Policy.-Connect with us:www.breakingbattlegrounds.voteTwitter: www.twitter.com/Breaking_BattleFacebook: www.facebook.com/breakingbattlegroundsInstagram: www.instagram.com/breakingbattlegroundsLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/breakingbattlegrounds This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit breakingbattlegrounds.substack.com

The SNP's treasurer Colin Beattie has been arrested amidst an investigation into the party’s finances. Plus, Just Stop Oil activists disrupt the World Snooker Championship and Ofgem still won’t ban prepayment meters. With Aaron Bastani and Barnaby Raine.

The SNP's treasurer Colin Beattie has been arrested amidst an investigation into the party's finances. Plus, Just Stop Oil activists disrupt the World Snooker Championship and Ofgem still won't ban prepayment meters. With Aaron Bastani and Barnaby Raine.

National Police Association

DJ JSO discusses Meta verification reactions across social media, the process and share his insights on the trending topic.Start your own podcast today using our link and Get $20 Amazon gift card just for joining the Acast family. https://open.acast.com/invite/r/themicSupport the show (https://www.paypal.me/themicradio) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Have you ever felt so unmotivated to workout, or maybe you've been really going hard with your workouts and find yourself totally burnt out? (SAME!) There are two areas we need to focus on in order to fuel our workouts, and recover our workouts if we are feeling this way (we've all be there!) Listen in as we habit habit these two areas so you can keep up with the type of movement you need for your season of life. THE HEALTHY HABIT RESET LIVE IS BACK! Join us April 11th, 12th and 13th at 12pm EST LIVE each day (or catch the replays!) I do the reset LIVE every quarter with you to helop you reset your habits for the season of life that you are in. Learn the 5 STEP HABIT CHANGE METHOD that I only teach in the reset and BONUS...this time there will be a special section on springtime habits (so if you've joined us before, you for sure don't want to miss out on habit hacking your spring time habits!) Make sure to sign up to get the Zoom and Facebook info and access to the replays and worksheet (to help you take action, of course!) JSo excited to see you there and help you reset your habits and help you THRIVE!  40% OFF PLUS FREE SHIPPING ON YOUR FIRST ORDER OF 24 CANS OF FITAID ENERGY **** HABIT HACKS: -Get the FREE HEALTHY HABIT RESET MASTERCLASS! -Access the secret podcast ATOMIC HABITS FOR WOMEN -Visit the TRANSFORMATION SHOP to get all the affordable habit hacking tools! -Grab an ACCELERATOR -CHECK OUT THE FREEBIE VAULT!: Access habit tools, self care checklist, ingredient meal tips, free workouts and more!    LET'S CONNECT: -Sign up for weekly motivational texts from Emily at: 1-773-904-2157 or click this link!  Connect with Emily: HABIT HACKING WEEKLY LIVE RECAP: @emilynichols22@transformationshop.co www.emily-nichols.com   

DJ JSO shares his networking experience and thoughts on building a creative entrepreneur career on your on versus in a group developmental setting or having a mentor. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Pete's spring break nightmare stories!! Another JSO officer arrested in SJC over DUI

A proactive safety program aims to reduce or eliminate incidents and injuries. Job safety observations and near-miss reporting can be powerful tools to help us accomplish these goals.