Podcast appearances and mentions of jean yang

Today on the show, we have the founder and CEO of Akita Software and now head of product at Postman, Dr. Professor Jean Yang. Jean has a super interesting background, a former computer science professor at Carnegie Mellon University with a focus on programming language research. She then went on to found Akita Software, which was focused on solving hard problems around the API observability space. And last year, the company was acquired by Postman. And during the interview, we covered a lot of ground talking about Jean's academic experience, motivations for starting a company, and the problem Akita set out to work on. 01:05 Intro 06:40 Software as a Social Problem 12:10 Over engineering 20:44 Motivation 25:22 The problems 32:10 Existing methods to solve 36:21 Some other similar systems 36:21 Packet to Reconstruction 39:43 Aha moments for customers 41:33 Why sell to Postman 47:23 Would you do it again? 52:03 Rapid Fire

In this podcast Shane Hastie, Lead Editor for Culture & Methods spoke to Jean Yang, the head of product and observability at Postman, about the misalignment between academia, thought leaders, and the actual work being done in software development. Read a transcript of this interview: https://bit.ly/3Rhv4ep Subscribe to the Software Architects' Newsletter [monthly]: www.infoq.com/software-architect…mpaign=architectnl Upcoming Events: QCon London qconlondon.com/ April 8-10, 2024 Follow InfoQ: - Mastodon: https://techhub.social/@infoq - Twitter: twitter.com/InfoQ - LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/infoq - Facebook: bit.ly/2jmlyG8 - Instagram: @infoqdotcom - Youtube: www.youtube.com/infoq Write for InfoQ - Join a community of experts. - Increase your visibility. - Grow your career. www.infoq.com/write-for-infoq/?u…aign=writeforinfoq

Jean Yang, founder of API observability company Akita Software, emphasizes that programming languages should be shaped by software development needs and data, rather than philosophical ideals. Yang, a former assistant professor at Carnegie Mellon University, believes that programming tools and processes should be influenced by actual use and data, prioritizing the developer experience over the language creator's beliefs. With a background in programming languages, Yang advocates for a shift away from the outdated notion that language developers are building solely for themselves.In this discussion on The New Stack Makers, Yang underscores the importance of understanding the reality of developers' needs, especially as developer tools have evolved into a full-time industry. She argues for a focus on UX design and product fundamentals in developing tools, moving beyond the traditional mindset where developer tools were considered side projects.Yang founded Akita to address the challenges of building reliable software systems in a world dominated by APIs and microservices. The company transitioned to API observability, recognizing the crucial role APIs play in enhancing the understandability of complex systems. Yang's commitment to improving software correctness and the belief in APIs as key to abstraction and ease of monitoring align with Postman's direction after acquiring Akita. Postman aims to serve developers worldwide, emphasizing the significance of APIs in complex systems.Check out more episodes from The Tech Founder Odyssey series:How Byteboard's CEO Decided to Fix the Broken Tech InterviewA Lifelong ‘Maker' Tackles a Developer Onboarding ProblemHow Teleport's Leader Transitioned from Engineer to CEO

In this session, we spoke with Jean Yang, the VP and Co-founder of Onit's AI Center of Excellence. The Center is a note-worthy offering from a software vendor. Jean's journey to Onit seems like it was a natural progression. A former practising lawyer from New Zealand, she has spent most of her career so far (there's lots more still to come) at the leading edge of AI in legal and, that has now taken her to Onit in Austin, Texas. Our discussion focussed on the application of AI in legal - how much that has changed this past year; emerging trends in AI uptake; whether it's realistic to expect definitive use cases right now; and the challenges, opportunities, needs, expectations and reality of the tech becoming pervasive/BAU in the legal world next year or maybe later - it's hard to look too far ahead in this space right now but we did a little AI crystal ball gazing! If you would prefer to watch rather than listen to this podcast, you'll find the video here. About the Future 50 Series In the Future 50 Series, we're chatting with legalpreneurs who, through their ideas and actions, are challenging and transforming legal BAU all around the world. If you would like to recommend people for this Series, please contact us at: CLI@collaw.edu.au.

Jean Yang's research on programming languages at Carnegie Mellon led her to realize that APIs are the layer that makes or breaks quality software systems. Unfortunately, developers are underserved by tools for dealing with, securing & understanding APIs. That realization led her to found Akita Software, which led her to join Postman by way of acquisition. That move, at least in part, also led her to join us on this very podcast. We think you're going to enjoy this interview, we sure did.

Jean Yang's research on programming languages at Carnegie Mellon led her to realize that APIs are the layer that makes or breaks quality software systems. Unfortunately, developers are underserved by tools for dealing with, securing & understanding APIs. That realization led her to found Akita Software, which led her to join Postman by way of acquisition. That move, at least in part, also led her to join us on this very podcast. We think you're going to enjoy this interview, we sure did.

Jean Yang, CEO of Akita Software, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how she went from academia to tech founder, and what her company is doing to improve monitoring and observability. Jean explains why Akita is different from other observability & monitoring solutions, and how it bridges the gap from what people know they should be doing and what they actually do in practice. Corey and Jean explore why the monitoring and observability space has been so broken, and why it's important for people to see monitoring as a chore and not a hobby. Jean also reveals how she took a leap from being an academic professor to founding a tech start-up. About JeanJean Yang is the founder and CEO of Akita Software, providing the fastest time-to-value for API monitoring. Jean was previously a tenure-track professor in Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon University.Links Referenced: Akita Software: https://www.akitasoftware.com/ Aki the dog chatbot: https://www.akitasoftware.com/blog-posts/we-built-an-exceedingly-polite-ai-dog-that-answers-questions-about-your-apis Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeanqasaur TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is someone whose company has… well, let's just say that it has piqued my interest. Jean Yang is the CEO of Akita Software and not only is it named after a breed of dog, which frankly, Amazon service namers could take a lot of lessons from, but it also tends to approach observability slash monitoring from a perspective of solving the problem rather than preaching a new orthodoxy. Jean, thank you for joining me.Jean: Thank you for having me. Very excited.Corey: In the world that we tend to operate in, there are so many different observability tools, and as best I can determine observability is hipster monitoring. Well, if we call it monitoring, we can't charge you quite as much money for it. And whenever you go into any environment of significant scale, we pretty quickly discover that, “What monitoring tool are you using?” The answer is, “Here are the 15 that we use.” Then you talk to other monitoring and observability companies and ask them which ones of those they've replace, and the answer becomes, “We're number 16.” Which is less compelling of a pitch than you might expect. What does Akita do? Where do you folks start and stop?Jean: We want to be—at Akita—your first stop for monitoring and we want to be all of the monitoring, you need up to a certain level. And here's the motivation. So, we've talked with hundreds, if not thousands, of software teams over the last few years and what we found is there is such a gap between best practice, what people think everybody else is doing, what people are talking about at conferences, and what's actually happening in software teams. And so, what software teams have told me over and over again, is, hey, we either don't actually use very many tools at all, or we use 15 tools in name, but it's you know, one [laugh] one person on the team set this one up, it's monitoring one of our endpoints, we don't even know which one sometimes. Who knows what the thresholds are really supposed to be. We got too many alerts one day, we turned it off.But there's very much a gap between what people are saying they're supposed to do, what people in their heads say they're going to do next quarter or the quarter after that and what's really happening in practice. And what we saw was teams are falling more and more into monitoring debt. And so effectively, their customers are becoming their monitoring and it's getting harder to catch up. And so, what Akita does is we're the fastest, easiest way for teams to quickly see what endpoints you have in your system—so that's API endpoints—what's slow and what's throwing errors. And you might wonder, okay, wait, wait, wait, Jean. Monitoring is usually about, like, logs, metrics, and traces. I'm not used to hearing about API—like, what do APIs have to do with any of it?And my view is, look, we want the most simple form of what might be wrong with your system, we want a developer to be able to get started without having to change any code, make any annotations, drop in any libraries. APIs are something you can watch from the outside of a system. And when it comes to which alerts actually matter, where do you want errors to be alerts, where do you want thresholds to really matter, my view is, look, the places where your system interfaces with another system are probably where you want to start if you've really gotten nothing. And so, Akita view is, we're going to start from the outside in on this monitoring. We're turning a lot of the views on monitoring and observability on its head and we just want to be the tool that you reach for if you've got nothing, it's middle of the night, you have alerts on some endpoint, and you don't want to spend a few hours or weeks setting up some other tool. And we also want to be able to grow with you up until you need that power tool that many of the existing solutions out there are today.Corey: It feels like monitoring is very often one of those reactive things. I come from the infrastructure world, so you start off with, “What do you use for monitoring?” “Oh, we wait till the help desk calls us and users are reporting a problem.” Okay, that gets you somewhere. And then it becomes oh, well, what was wrong that time? The drive filled up. Okay, so we're going to build checks in that tell us when the drives are filling up.And you wind up trying to enumerate all of the different badness. And as a result, if you leave that to its logical conclusion, one of the stories that I heard out of MySpace once upon a time—which dates me somewhat—is that you would have a shift, so there were three shifts working around the clock, and each one would open about 5000 tickets, give or take, for the monitoring alerts that wound up firing off throughout their infrastructure. At that point, it's almost, why bother? Because no one is going to be around to triage these things; no one is going to see any of the signal buried and all of that noise. When you talk about doing this for an API perspective, are you running synthetics against those APIs? Are you shimming them in order to see what's passing through them? What's the implementation side look like?Jean: Yeah, that's a great question. So, we're using a technology called BPF, Berkeley Packet Filter. The more trendy, buzzy term is EBPF—Corey: The EBPF. Oh yes.Jean: Yeah, Extended Berkeley Packet Filter. But here's the secret, we only use the BPF part. It's actually a little easier for users to install. The E part is, you know, fancy and often finicky. But um—Corey: SEBPF then: Shortened Extended BPF. Why not?Jean: [laugh]. Yeah. And what BPF allows us to do is passively watch traffic from the outside of a system. So, think of it as you're sending API calls across the network. We're just watching that network. We're not in the path of that traffic. So, we're not intercepting the traffic in any way, we're not creating any additional overhead for the traffic, we're not slowing it down in any way. We're just sitting on the side, we're watching all of it, and then we're taking that and shipping an obfuscated version off to our cloud, and then we're giving you analytics on that.Corey: One of the things that strikes me as being… I guess, a common trope is there are a bunch of observability solutions out there that offer this sort of insight into what's going on within an environment, but it's, “Step one: instrument with some SDK or some agent across everything. Do an entire deploy across your fleet.” Which yeah, people are not generally going to be in a hurry to sign up for. And further, you also said a minute ago that the idea being that someone could start using this in the middle of the night in the middle of an outage, which tells me that it's not, “Step one: get the infrastructure sparkling. Step two: do a global deploy to everything.” How do you go about doing that? What is the level of embeddedness into the environment?Jean: Yeah, that's a great question. So, the reason we chose BPF is I wanted a completely black-box solution. So, no SDKs, no code annotations. I wanted people to be able to change a config file and have our solution apply to anything that's on the system. So, you could add routes, you could do all kinds of things. I wanted there to be no additional work on the part of the developer when that happened.And so, we're not the only solution that uses BPF or EBPF. There's many other solutions that say, “Hey, just drop us in. We'll let you do anything you want.” The big difference is what happens with the traffic once it gets processed. So, what EBPF or BPF gives you is it watches everything about your system. And so, you can imagine that's a lot of different events. That's a lot of things.If you're trying to fix an incident in the middle of the night and someone just dumps on you 1000 pages of logs, like, what are you going to do with that? And so, our view is, the more interesting and important and valuable thing to do here is not make it so that you just have the ability to watch everything about your system but to make it so that developers don't have to sift through thousands of events just to figure out what went wrong. So, we've spent years building algorithms to automatically analyze these API events to figure out, first of all, what are your endpoints? Because it's one thing to turn on something like Wireshark and just say, okay, here are the thousand API calls, I saw—ten thousand—but it's another thing to say, “Hey, 500 of those were actually the same endpoint and 300 of those had errors.” That's quite a hard problem.And before us, it turns out that there was no other solution that even did that to the level of being able to compile together, “Here are all the slow calls to an endpoint,” or, “Here are all of the erroneous calls to an endpoint.” That was blood, sweat, and tears of developers in the night before. And so, that's the first major thing we do. And then metrics on top of that. So, today we have what's slow, what's throwing errors. People have asked us for other things like show me what happened after I deployed. Show me what's going on this week versus last week. But now that we have this data set, you can imagine there's all kinds of questions we can now start answering much more quickly on top of it.Corey: One thing that strikes me about your site is that when I go to akitasoftware.com, you've got a shout-out section at the top. And because I've been doing this long enough where I find that, yeah, you work at a company; you're going to say all kinds of wonderful, amazing aspirational things about it, and basically because I have deep-seated personality disorders, I will make fun of those things as my default reflexive reaction. But something that AWS, for example, does very well is when they announce something ridiculous on stage at re:Invent, I make fun of it, as is normal, but then they have a customer come up and say, “And here's the expensive, painful problem that they solved for us.”And that's where I shut up and start listening. Because it's a very different story to get someone else, who is presumably not being paid, to get on stage and say, “Yeah, this solved a sophisticated, painful problem.” Your shout-outs page has not just a laundry list of people saying great things about it, but there are former folks who have been on the show here, people I know and trust: Scott Johnson over at Docker, Gergely Orosz over at The Pragmatic Engineer, and other folks who have been luminaries in the space for a while. These are not the sort of people that are going to say, “Oh, sure. Why not? Oh, you're going to send me a $50 gift card in a Twitter DM? Sure I'll say nice things,” like it's one of those respond to a viral tweet spamming something nonsense. These are people who have gravitas. It's clear that there's something you're building that is resonating.Jean: Yeah. And for that, they found us. Everyone that I've tried to bribe to say good things about us actually [laugh] refused.Corey: Oh, yeah. As it turns out that it's one of those things where people are more expensive than you might think. It's like, “What, you want me to sell my credibility down the road?” Doesn't work super well. But there's something like the unsolicited testimonials that come out of, this is amazing, once people start kicking the tires on it.You're currently in open beta. So, I guess my big question for you is, whenever you see a product that says, “Oh, yeah, we solve everything cloud, on-prem, on physical instances, on virtual machines, on Docker, on serverless, everything across the board. It's awesome.” I have some skepticism on that. What is your ideal application architecture that Akita works best on? And what sort of things are you a complete nonstarter for?Jean: Yeah, I'll start with a couple of things we work well on. So, container platforms. We work relatively well. So, that's your Fargate, that's your Azure Web Apps. But that, you know, things running, we call them container platforms. Kubernetes is also something that a lot of our users have picked us up and had success with us on. I will say our Kubernetes deploy is not as smooth as we would like. We say, you know, you can install us—Corey: Well, that is Kubernetes, yes.Jean: [laugh]. Yeah.Corey: Nothing in Kubernetes is as smooth as we would like.Jean: Yeah, so we're actually rolling out Kubernetes injection support in the next couple of weeks. So, those are the two that people have had the most success on. If you're running on bare metal or on a VM, we work, but I will say that you have to know your way around a little bit to get that to work. What we don't work on is any Platform as a Service. So, like, a Heroku, a Lambda, a Render at the moment. So those, we haven't found a way to passively listen to the network traffic in a good way right now.And we also work best for unencrypted HTTP REST traffic. So, if you have encrypted traffic, it's not a non-starter, but you need to fall into a couple of categories. You either need to be using Kubernetes, you can run Akita as a sidecar, or you're using Nginx. And so, that's something we're still expanding support on. And we do not support GraphQL or GRPC at the moment.Corey: That's okay. Neither do I. It does seem these days that unencrypted HTTP API calls are increasingly becoming something of a relic, where folks are treating those as anti-patterns to be stamped out ruthlessly. Are you still seeing significant deployments of unencrypted APIs?Jean: Yeah. [laugh]. So, Corey—Corey: That is the reality, yes.Jean: That's a really good question, Corey, because in the beginning, we weren't sure what we wanted to focus on. And I'm not saying the whole deployment is unencrypted HTTP, but there is a place to install Akita to watch where it's unencrypted HTTP. And so, this is what I mean by if you have encrypted traffic, but you can install Akita as a Kubernetes sidecar, we can still watch that. But there was a big question when we started: should this be GraphQL, GRPC, or should it be REST? And I read the “State of the API Report” from Postman for you know, five years, and I still keep up with it.And every year, it seemed that not only was REST, remaining dominant, it was actually growing. So, [laugh] this was shocking to me as well because people said, well, “We have this more structured stuff, now. There's GRPC, there's GraphQL.” But it seems that for the added complexity, people weren't necessarily seeing the value and so, REST continues to dominate. And I've actually even seen a decline in GraphQL since we first started doing this. So, I'm fully on board the REST wagon. And in terms of encrypted versus unencrypted, I would also like to see more encryption as well. That's why we're working on burning down the long tail of support for that.Corey: Yeah, it's one of those challenges. Whenever you're deploying something relatively new, there's this idea that it should be forward-looking and you, on some level, want to modernize your architecture and infrastructure to keep up with it. An AWS integration story I see that's like that these days is, “Oh, yeah, generate an IAM credential set and just upload those into our system.” Yeah, the modern way of doing that is role assumption: to find a role and here's how to configure it so that it can do what we need to do. So, whenever you start seeing things that are, “Oh, yeah, just turn the security clock back in time a little bit,” that's always a little bit of an eyebrow raise.I can also definitely empathize with the joys of dealing with anything that even touches networking in a Lambda context. Building the Lambda extension for Tailscale was one of the last big dives I made into that area and I still have nightmares as a result. It does a lot of interesting things right up until you step off the golden path. And then suddenly, everything becomes yaks all the way down, in desperate need of shaving.Jean: Yeah, Lambda does something we want to handle on our roadmap, but I… believe we need a bigger team before [laugh] we are ready to tackle that.Corey: Yeah, we're going to need a bigger boat is very often [laugh] the story people have when they start looking at entire new architectural paradigms. So, you end up talking about working in containerized environments. Do you find that most of your deployments are living in cloud environments, in private data centers, some people call them private cloud. Where does the bulk of your user applications tend to live these days?Jean: The bulk of our user applications are in the cloud. So, we're targeting small to medium businesses to start. The reason being, we want to give our users a magical deployment experience. So, right now, a lot of our users are deploying in under 30 minutes. That's in no small part due to automations that we've built.And so, we initially made the strategic decision to focus on places where we get the most visibility. And so—where one, we get the most visibility, and two, we are ready for that level of scale. So, we found that, you know, for a large business, we've run inside some of their production environments and there are API calls that we don't yet handle well or it's just such a large number of calls, we're not doing the inference as well and our algorithms don't work as well. And so, we've made the decision to start small, build our way up, and start in places where we can just aggressively iterate because we can see everything that's going on. And so, we've stayed away, for instance, from any on-prem deployments for that reason because then we can't see everything that's going on. And so, smaller companies that are okay with us watching pretty much everything they're doing has been where we started. And now we're moving up into the medium-sized businesses.Corey: The challenge that I guess I'm still trying to wrap my head around is, I think that it takes someone with a particularly rosy set of glasses on to look at the current state of monitoring and observability and say that it's not profoundly broken in a whole bunch of ways. Now, where it all falls apart, Tower of Babelesque, is that there doesn't seem to be consensus on where exactly it's broken. Where do you see, I guess, this coming apart at the seams?Jean: I agree, it's broken. And so, if I tap into my background, which is I was a programming languages person in my very recently, previous life, programming languages people like to say the problem and the solution is all lies in abstraction. And so, computing is all about building abstractions on top of what you have now so that you don't have to deal with so many details and you got to think at a higher level; you're free of the shackles of so many low-level details. What I see is that today, monitoring and observability is a sort of abstraction nightmare. People have just taken it as gospel that you need to live at the lowest level of abstraction possible the same way that people truly believe that assembly code was the way everybody was going to program forevermore back, you know, 50 years ago.So today, what's happening is that when people think monitoring, they think logs, not what's wrong with my system, what do I need to pay attention to? They think, “I have to log everything, I have to consume all those logs, we're just operating at the level of logs.” And that's not wrong because there haven't been any tools that have given people any help above the level of logs. Although that's not entirely correct, you know? There's also events and there's also traces, but I wouldn't say that's actually lifting the level of [laugh] abstraction very much either.And so, people today are thinking about monitoring and observability as this full control, like, I'm driving my, like, race car, completely manual transmission, I want to feel everything. And not everyone wants to or needs to do that to get to where they need to go. And so, my question is, how far are can we lift the level of abstraction for monitoring and observability? I don't believe that other people are really asking this question because most of the other players in the space, they're asking what else can we monitor? Where else can we monitor it? How much faster can we do it? Or how much more detail can we give the people who really want the power tools?But the people entering the buyer's market with needs, they're not people—you don't have, like, you know, hordes of people who need more powerful tools. You have people who don't know about the systems are dealing with and they want easier. They want to figure out if there's anything wrong with our system so they can get off work and do other things with their lives.Corey: That, I think, is probably the thing that gets overlooked the most. It's people don't tend to log into their monitoring systems very often. They don't want to. When they do, it's always out of hours, middle of the night, and they're confronted with a whole bunch of upsell dialogs of, “Hey, it's been a while. You want to go on a tour of the new interface?”Meanwhile, anything with half a brain can see there's a giant spike on the graph or telemetry stop coming in.Jean: Yeah.Corey: It's way outside of normal business hours where this person is and maybe they're not going to be in the best mood to engage with your brand.Jean: Yeah. Right now, I think a lot of the problem is, you're either working with monitoring because you're desperate, you're in the middle of an active incident, or you're a monitoring fanatic. And there isn't a lot in between. So, there's a tweet that someone in my network tweeted me that I really liked which is, “Monitoring should be a chore, not a hobby.” And right now, it's either a hobby or an urgent necessity [laugh].And when it gets to the point—so you know, if we think about doing dishes this way, it would be as if, like, only, like, the dish fanatics did dishes, or, like, you will just have piles of dishes, like, all over the place and raccoons and no dishes left, and then you're, like, “Ah, time to do a thing.” But there should be something in between where there's a defined set of things that people can do on a regular basis to keep up with what they're doing. It should be accessible to everyone on the team, not just a couple of people who are true fanatics. No offense to the people out there, I love you guys, you're the ones who are really helping us build our tool the most, but you know, there's got to be a world in which more people are able to do the things you do.Corey: That's part of the challenge is bringing a lot of the fire down from Mount Olympus to the rest of humanity, where at some level, Prometheus was a great name from that—Jean: Yep [laugh].Corey: Just from that perspective because you basically need to be at that level of insight. I think Kubernetes suffers from the same overall problem where it is not reasonably responsible to run a Kubernetes production cluster without some people who really know what's going on. That's rapidly changing, which is for the better, because most companies are not going to be able to afford a multimillion-dollar team of operators who know the ins and outs of these incredibly complex systems. It has to become more accessible and simpler. And we have an entire near century at this point of watching abstractions get more and more and more complex and then collapsing down in this particular field. And I think that we're overdue for that correction in a lot of the modern infrastructure, tooling, and approaches that we take.Jean: I agree. It hasn't happened yet in monitoring and observability. It's happened in coding, it's happened in infrastructure, it's happened in APIs, but all of that has made it so that it's easier to get into monitoring debt. And it just hasn't happened yet for anything that's more reactive and more about understanding what the system is that you have.Corey: You mentioned specifically that your background was in programming languages. That's understating it slightly. You were a tenure-track professor of computer science at Carnegie Mellon before entering industry. How tied to what your area of academic speciality was, is what you're now at Akita?Jean: That's a great question and there are two answers to that. The first is very not tied. If it were tied, I would have stayed in my very cushy, highly [laugh] competitive job that I worked for years to get, to do stuff there. And so like, what we're doing now is comes out of thousands of conversations with developers and desire to build on the ground tools that I'm—there's some technically interesting parts to it, for sure. I think that our technical innovation is our moat, but is it at the level of publishable papers? Publishable papers are a very narrow thing; I wouldn't be able to say yes to that question.On the other hand, everything that I was trained to do was about identifying a problem and coming up with an out-of-the-box solution for it. And especially in programming languages research, it's really about abstractions. It's really about, you know, taking a set of patterns that you see of problems people have, coming up with the right abstractions to solve that problem, evaluating your solution, and then, you know, prototyping that out and building on top of it. And so, in that case, you know, we identified, hey, people have a huge gap when it comes to monitoring and observability. I framed it as an abstraction problem, how can we lift it up?We saw APIs as this is a great level to build a new level of solution. And our solution, it's innovative, but it also solves the problem. And to me, that's the most important thing. Our solution didn't need to be innovative. If you're operating in an academic setting, it's really about… producing a new idea. It doesn't actually [laugh]—I like to believe that all endeavors really have one main goal, and in academia, the main goal is producing something new. And to me, building a product is about solving a problem and our main endeavor was really to solve a real problem here.Corey: I think that it is, in many cases, useful when we start seeing a lot of, I guess, overflow back and forth between academia and industry, in both directions. I think that it is doing academia a disservice when you start looking at it purely as pure theory, and oh yeah, they don't deal with any of the vocational stuff. Conversely, I think the idea that industry doesn't have anything to learn from academia is dramatically misunderstanding the way the world works. The idea of watching some of that ebb and flow and crossover between them is neat to see.Jean: Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of academics I super respect and admire who have done great things that are useful in industry. And it's really about, I think, what you want your main goal to be at the time. Is it, do you want to be optimizing for new ideas or contributing, like, a full solution to a problem at the time? But it's there's a lot of overlap in the skills you need.Corey: One last topic I'd like to dive into before we call it an episode is that there's an awful lot of hype around a variety of different things. And right now in this moment, AI seems to be one of those areas that is getting an awful lot of attention. It's clear too there's something of value there—unlike blockchain, which has struggled to identify anything that was not fraud as a value proposition for the last decade-and-a-half—but it's clear that AI is offering value already. You have recently, as of this recording, released an AI chatbot, which, okay, great. But what piques my interest is one, it's a dog, which… germane to my interest, by all means, and two, it is marketed as, and I quote, “Exceedingly polite.”Jean: [laugh].Corey: Manners are important. Tell me about this pupper.Jean: Yeah, this dog came really out of four or five days of one of our engineers experimenting with ChatGPT. So, for a little bit of background, I'll just say that I have been excited about the this latest wave of AI since the beginning. So, I think at the very beginning, a lot of dev tools people were skeptical of GitHub Copilot; there was a lot of controversy around GitHub Copilot. I was very early. And I think all the Copilot people retweeted me because I was just their earlies—like, one of their earliest fans. I was like, “This is the coolest thing I've seen.”I've actually spent the decade before making fun of AI-based [laugh] programming. But there were two things about GitHub Copilot that made my jaw drop. And that's related to your question. So, for a little bit of background, I did my PhD in a group focused on program synthesis. So, it was really about, how can we automatically generate programs from a variety of means? From constraints—Corey: Like copying and pasting off a Stack Overflow, or—Jean: Well, the—I mean, that actually one of the projects that my group was literally applying machine-learning to terabytes of other example programs to generate new programs. So, it was very similar to GitHub Copilot before GitHub Copilot. It was synthesizing API calls from analyzing terabytes of other API calls. And the thing that I had always been uncomfortable with these machine-learning approaches in my group was, they were in the compiler loop. So, it was, you know, you wrote some code, the compiler did some AI, and then it spit back out some code that, you know, like you just ran.And so, that never sat well with me. I always said, “Well, I don't really see how this is going to be practical,” because people can't just run random code that you basically got off the internet. And so, what really excited me about GitHub Copilot was the fact that it was in the editor loop. I was like, “Oh, my God.”Corey: It had the context. It was right there. You didn't have to go tabbing to something else.Jean: Exactly.Corey: Oh, yeah. I'm in the same boat. I think it is basically—I've seen the future unfolding before my eyes.Jean: Yeah. Was the autocomplete thing. And to me, that was the missing piece. Because in your editor, you always read your code before you go off and—you know, like, you read your code, whoever code reviews your code reads your code. There's always at least, you know, two pairs of eyes, at least theoretically, reading your code.So, that was one thing that was jaw-dropping to me. That was the revelation of Copilot. And then the other thing was that it was marketed not as, “We write your code for you,” but the whole Copilot marketing was that, you know, it kind of helps you with boilerplate. And to me, I had been obsessed with this idea of how can you help developers write less boilerplate for years. And so, this AI-supported boilerplate copiloting was very exciting to me.And I saw that is very much the beginning of a new era, where, yes, there's tons of data on how we should be programming. I mean, all of Akita is based on the fact that we should be mining all the data we have about how your system and your code is operating to help you do stuff better. And so, to me, you know, Copilot is very much in that same philosophy. But our AI chatbot is, you know, just a next step along this progression. Because for us, you know, we collect all this data about your API behavior; we have been using non-AI methods to analyze this data and show it to you.And what ChatGPT allowed us to do in less than a week was analyze this data using very powerful large-language models and I have this conversational interface that both gives you the opportunity to check over and follow up on the question so that what you're spitting out—so what we're spitting out as Aki the dog doesn't have to be a hundred percent correct. But to me, the fact that Aki is exceedingly polite and kind of goofy—he, you know, randomly woofs and says a lot of things about how he's a dog—it's the right level of seriousness so that it's not messaging, hey, this is the end all, be all, the way, you know, the compiler loop never sat well with me because I just felt deeply uncomfortable that an AI was having that level of authority in a system, but a friendly dog that shows up and tells you some things that you can ask some additional questions to, no one's going to take him that seriously. But if he says something useful, you're going to listen. And so, I was really excited about the way this was set up. Because I mean, I believe that AI should be a collaborator and it should be a collaborator that you never take with full authority. And so, the chat and the politeness covered those two parts for me both.Corey: Yeah, on some level, I can't shake the feeling that it's still very early days there for Chat-Gipity—yes, that's how I pronounce it—and it's brethren as far as redefining, on some level, what's possible. I think that it's in many cases being overhyped, but it's solving an awful lot of the… the boilerplate, the stuff that is challenging. A question I have, though, is that, as a former professor, a concern that I have is when students are using this, it's less to do with the fact that they're not—they're taking shortcuts that weren't available to me and wanting to make them suffer, but rather, it's, on some level, if you use it to write your English papers, for example. Okay, great, it gets the boring essay you don't want to write out of the way, but the reason you write those things is it teaches you to form a story, to tell a narrative, to structure an argument, and I think that letting the computer do those things, on some level, has the potential to weaken us across the board. Where do you stand on it, given that you see both sides of that particular snake?Jean: So, here's a devil's advocate sort of response to it, is that maybe the writing [laugh] was never the important part. And it's, as you say, telling the story was the important part. And so, what better way to distill that out than the prompt engineering piece of it? Because if you knew that you could always get someone to flesh out your story for you, then it really comes down to, you know, I want to tell a story with these five main points. And in some way, you could see this as a playing field leveler.You know, I think that as a—English is actually not my first language. I spent a lot of time editing my parents writing for their work when I was a kid. And something I always felt really strongly about was not discriminating against people because they can't form sentences or they don't have the right idioms. And I actually spent a lot of time proofreading my friends' emails when I was in grad school for the non-native English speakers. And so, one way you could see this as, look, people who are not insiders now are on the same playing field. They just have to be clear thinkers.Corey: That is a fascinating take. I think I'm going to have to—I'm going to have to ruminate on that one. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today about what you're up to. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Jean: Well, I'm always on Twitter, still [laugh]. I'm @jeanqasaur—J-E-A-N-Q-A-S-A-U-R. And there's a chat dialog on akitasoftware.com. I [laugh] personally oversee a lot of that chat, so if you ever want to find me, that is a place, you know, where all messages will get back to me somehow.Corey: And we will, of course, put a link to that into the [show notes 00:35:01]. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Jean: Thank you, Corey.Corey: Jean Yang, CEO at Akita Software. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry insulting comment that you will then, of course, proceed to copy to the other 17 podcast tools that you use, just like you do your observability monitoring suite.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

The Legacy of Eastwind Books Tonight APEX Express focuses on the legendary Eastwind Books, the oldest AAPI book store in the country closes on April 30, 2023.  Host Miko Lee speaks with founder Harvey Dong and staff Cheryl Truong and Banoo Afkhami about the history and the future of this beloved community activist book store.     SHOW TRANSCRIPTS EastWind Books 20230323-Thu1900 [00:00:27] Miko Lee: Express. Good evening, you are tuned into Apex Express. We're bringing you an Asian and Asian American view from the Bay and around the world. I'm your host Miko Lee, and tonight we're talking about the beloved and amazing East Wind Bookstore. It'll be closing its doors on April 30th after 41 years in operation. Joining us are is the founder Harvey Dong. Staff Cheryl Truong and Banoo Afkhami. So keep it locked on Apex Express. Welcome East Wind Books to Apex Express. I am so excited to talk to you all about the legacy of East Wind Books, I wanna start first with our legacy make. Harvey, can you just first share, I mean, I think many people know about you and we've interviewed you on Apex Express before talking about the history of where the terminology Asian American even comes from. And we know you're an esteemed professor at, um, uc, Berkeley. But can you, in your own words, tell us who you are, who your people are, and what legacy you carry with you from your ancestors? , [00:01:33] Harvey Dong: that's a tough, uh, question because, um, it would take quite a lot of thinking of the different places I've been in in the past. But, um, I, I would just start with, uh, this was our decision to, uh, continue the operations at East Wind Books, uh, was when a friend of ours, uh, Who was the manager of East Wind Books and Art, uh, informed us that this bookstore, uh, 1986 Shaddock, uh, was planning to be closed. And he was sad to see it closed, and he asked us, Myself and my wife Beatrice, if we'd like to continue it, possibly as an Asian American bookstore. Um, and we said that, uh, we'd think about it and it took us about two years. 9, 19 94, we were customers at his store and in 1996 we decided to take the leap, um, Beatres. Uh, graduated with a degree in ethnic studies, studying literature with, uh, professor Barbara Christian in African American Studies and Professor Elaine Kim in Asian American Studies and also Saling Wong in Asian American Studies. So she was very familiar with ethnic. lit and myself, I had the experience of, being involved when I was in the AAPA Asian American Political Alliance, to open the first Asian American bookstore on Kearney Street. Yeah, on the international hotel. We were evicted from that location in 1977. We gave it another try for another two years and, uh, everybody's shut down it's operations. So this is post third World Strike Post, um, uh, I Hotel. It was a time. Conservatism Prop 2 0 9, uh, attacks on the affirmative action and so forth, and we decided that maybe we could make a contribution by opening up and continuing. And evolving East Wind books of Berkeley. Uh, so since then, um, it's been a, uh, uh, quite a ride, you know, in terms of the people we've met, the people we interacted with, uh, the social movements that have come up and. We offered it as a, a place for up and coming, uh, Asian American studies, ethnic studies, uh, poets, uh, writers, um, and so forth. And it's, it's a, uh, a, a spot that we really. Treasure, we really enjoy. Um, the, the dream I had back then was, uh, people go all over to go to City Lights. Maybe East Wind books could be something like that. You know, we, we knew, uh, someone who worked at City Lights. Too. I [00:04:55] Miko Lee: love that. And I think for many people it has become a version of city lights, especially for the Asian American Pacific Islander community. But Harvey, you ignored my initial question. You went right into East Wind Books, which we're gonna be spending our whole episode talking about. And I wanna know, go way back and go back to growing up in Sacramento and, and tell me about, I know that your mom was also an activist. Can you tell me about how your mom influenced you as an organiz? [00:05:23] Harvey Dong: Well, my mom was always a very outspoken person. A lot of this had to do with the fact that because of the Chinese Exclusion Act, people who came over as paper sons, paper daughters, uh, she was left behind by both her parents, uh, because, uh, boys were prioritized over girls and her papers were given to a male cousin who could help at the, uh, grocery business. So she was, uh, left. And she went through the sin, uh, jaap Japanese war, uh, during war, war, war ii. Uh, she, uh, was a political refu. She was a refugee, uh, moving from China to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to Macau, and then back to China. So she had all this experience, and so she wasn't afraid to speak. Uh, we did see her speak out when, uh, acts of racism, uh, happened and, uh, she was also active in the, uh, uh, unions in, uh, for the state employees. So she, she was an inspiration to us, although we were probably too young to realize that we thought that she was just someone that was. Loud, [00:06:38] Miko Lee: loud. What wasn't afraid to speak out or speak her mind, right? Mm-hmm. . So not the model minority, your [00:06:44] Harvey Dong: mother? Uh, no, definitely not. Um, later when we, when I myself became active, uh, her main concern was not so much the, the content of the activism, but more whether or not I would graduate. [00:07:00] Miko Lee: Uh, yes. Graduating from college. That was the critical component to your. . Right. So tell me what was your, I know you have been involved in so many of the fabric that makes up Asian American movement building from the Third World Liberation Front to the Black Panthers to and with bees involvement in the Garment workers movement to the I Hotel. Tell me, what was your very first activist, uh, involvement? What was the thing that spurred your organizing? [00:07:30] Harvey Dong: Well, my first activist involvement. Dropping out of the, uh, RTC army program at uc, Berkeley. Uh, because I had talked to, uh, fellow classmates about the war. I went to a bookstore, uh, right around the corner from unit three where I lived. I just went out that exit and I just went in Cody's and read all their books about us imperialism and colonialism. And so I became, uh, anti-war and I. Lose some friends in the dorms over that cuz fellow Asian American friends who, uh, weren't as, uh, informed. You know, I would get into discussions and debates and so forth. [00:08:16] Miko Lee: And you had been reading all the books so [00:08:17] Harvey Dong: you knew Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I, I felt really passionate about it and I participated in Stop the Draft week 1967, uh, to, to, to, uh, uh, sit in at the induction. In Oakland, uh, I witnessed, uh, police brutality on demonstrators and it only fired us up, uh, for next year. Stopped the draft week part two in 1968. And so that kind of got me. Involved as an individual. Um, the anti-war movement, uh, began to relate with the, uh, black Panther movement. And from there I attended Black Panther functions. I even went down to the, uh, the headquarters as a volunteer witness, uh, because of the fact that there was news that there was gonna be a, a raid on the Black Panther headquarters and they needed community support. So I did have that background experience and then when the Asian American Political Alliance started in around May of 1968, um, I joined it the following fall. , um, they, they helped organize one of the first Asian American studies courses. It was an experimental course, and from there, I, I was, uh, became active in A A P A That led to the formation of the T W L F in, uh, December of 1968, and the strike begins in January, 1960. So I did, uh, meet quite a few people. We did, uh, connect with, uh, different, uh, peoples of color. Um, and white supporters during that time. [00:10:14] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing that. And I know, um, B couldn't be with us here today, but b is your spouse and partner and collaborator, um, life partner and business partner. And I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about how b for Scott involved, and I know that she worked with the, um, garment workers, but do you know her origin story, her activist origin story? [00:10:35] Harvey Dong: Uh, sure. The, um, the strike, uh, ended. Um, with a moratorium of strike activities pending further negotiations for a third World College. Um, part of that agreement would be the establishment of an interim Department of ethnic studies at uc, Berkeley to begin fall, uh, 1969 and b. , the first, uh, among the first students to be part of that fall 1969, uh, ethnic studies, Asian American studies class. So she, so from there she, uh, she was actually, uh, previously active in the Asian block at Oakland High. They worked with the Black students Union. So she started [00:11:22] Miko Lee: as a high school student? Yeah. As an activist. [00:11:24] Harvey Dong: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. They, they had a group there and the, quite a few number of the. Black students, uh, uh, went to Berkeley that following fall, and they became very active in Asian American studies. Asian American studies was, uh, somewhat of a liberated, uh, program because they gave us a minimal amount of funding, uh, with the hope that we would, um, burn ourselves. Ah, but instead we, we used whatever funding we had. Uh, we used the, uh, the classes to develop Asian American studies and reached out to the communities nearby, such as Japan Town in San Francisco, uh, Oakland, Chinatown, Oakland, uh, Manila Town, uh, San Francisco, Manila Town, south of Market. And so forth. And, and then students from Asian American studies classes would go to all these locations and they would become, uh, uh, people who would start, uh, serve the people type programs. [00:12:38] Miko Lee: I love that. So they thought they were gonna squish y'all, but instead they kind of helped to fire up a movement. [00:12:42] Harvey Dong:.Yeah, we had to really Think and brainstorm, you know, solutions, you know, given the limitations. So Bee became, very active in, Asian American studies. It was called Asian Studies back then, and she was actually in the, governing body, you know. Oh, wow. So just imagine a university program where you have a freshman having a say in the running of the program. [00:13:15] Miko Lee: Does that happen nowadays? [00:13:15] Harvey Dong: Uh, now it's very distance, you know, it's, it's not, not at all [00:13:21] Miko Lee: basically. No, no, that doesn't happen now. Wow. And then how did you two meet? What is the activist love story of Harvey and B Dong? [00:13:30] Harvey Dong: Well, we've met, in Asian American. we became closer through the formation of the, uh, Chinatown Cooperative Garment Factory, which was a, uh, an alternative to the, sweatshops in San Francisco Chinatown. Uh, that was also an, originally an Asian American Studies, community course project where there's investigation, uh, interviews, oral histories, and, and then we applied for, uh, seed. To purchase equipment machinery to establish a, um, a cooperative garment factory, um, in the basement of the International hotel. [00:14:14] Miko Lee: Oh, so you started that first and then it was at the I Hotel that you started mm-hmm. , everybody's bookstore, is that right? [00:14:20] Harvey Dong: everybody's bookstore was on the, Kearney street entrance of on the international hotel block. that started as a  like a 10 by 10 room. We, solicited like 50 bucks each from different  AAPA members and we raised about $500 and we got a business license. We went down to l n s bookstore., the book vendor in San Francisco, uh, book people was another. and also China books, which had a, never ending supply of, of red books and, literature from China. that's how the bookstore started. And that was actually I think the, the last activity of the Asian American Political Alliance. It, it ended, you know, cause So, so [00:15:25] Miko Lee: was was founding [00:15:26] Harvey Dong: the bookstore? Uh, yeah. Was founding the bookstore. And then after that, the, the bookstore, uh, is, um, becomes independent of, uh, of the aapa because people, scatter, move, go to different directions and stuff. we then inform. around that same time, we, we, Asian American Studies, formed this Asian studies field office, which brought students to, uh, San Francisco Chinatown and Manila Town holding classes. So, so we had this bookstore, we had this Asian studies field office. Uh, a couple years later, funding gets cut for, for the field office. And we then form an independent Asian community center known as acc. And the acc, um, had to raise its own monies. Uh, there were a lot of elderly people coming down, a lot of seniors, and they themselves felt really very attached to the center and they. , um, solicit funds to cover the rent. Yeah. Wow. So it became a community space. what happened there was we, we, we had people go to, uh, Portsmouth Square and we told the, uh, people sitting there, the elders that, you know, you can come down to our center and sit. You don't have to sit out here in the cold. Ah, in the rain. [00:16:57] Miko Lee: You gave them a space. [00:16:57] Harvey Dong: Yeah. So they all came down. The only problem was, you know, there was a lot of smoking and, uh, we did, there's no, you know, tobacco type related regulations and stuff like that, right? But,  there was tea serve. some of the old men, elders would tell us talk stories, while we're drinking tea. we connected, you know,  this type of phenomenon, we found out was also happening. Other locations and places. There was community center set up in, Japanese Community Center. in J Town there was a basement workshop in New York City., so you have this, the Civil rights Movement, black power movement, ethnic studies, movements. These classes,, wanting to send students to the community. then you have these centers developing. So it shows how like movements interrelate and connect the bookstore, everybody's bookstore was a part of that, providing the information. [00:18:13] Miko Lee: So it's always been, even in its very roots, it's been based in and of, and by and for the community as a way of building in political action. Is that right? [00:18:21] Harvey Dong: Yeah. exactly. We were definitely about, Building this wave of activism by going to the grassroots, you know? and that was happening, uh, in, particularly in, in, in the African American community, the Puerto Rican community,, Chicano community. All that was, was happening where you have young people, redefining their, their purpose in life. [00:18:57] Miko Lee: and their connection with their elders. Harvey Dong: Exactly. Yeah. Miko Lee: That's amazing., I have a question that has come from my colleague, which runs, Nancy Xiong that runs Hmong Innovating Politics. And actually tomorrow, our network at AACRE, we're doing an intergenerational exchange all about organizing and it's, elders speaking with young folks about how they're organizing and how they're uplifting their community. And her question is, can you talk about. organizing has evolved over time as you go through the different life transitions, like starting a family, taking care of kids, take, taking care of parents. How do you, what, what is a way to keep a healthy work life balance with your [00:19:40] Harvey Dong: activism? Well, taking care of um, uh, elders is a very tough task cuz we're, we're dealing with that now cuz Bee's dad passed. Last month, and then her mom moved into our, our house, uh, this, this month. So, so definitely it's, it's, it's something that, that has to be, uh, addressed. I, I know back then, you know, we, we, um, we did have, um, quite a few elders, uh, relate to our organization, but we, we didn't have any specific, uh, program. Uh, other than recreation, um, showing of films, uh, celebrating holidays, uh, together and, and so forth, the international hotel tenants, um, I, I know the International hotel, um, tenants collective, they, they, they actually, uh, brought in, uh, food programs, social services. Needs, you know, things that could meet, meet the daily needs of the elderly. So, so definitely it, it has to be a, uh, Dealt with on a community-wide basis so that people aren't isolated. [00:20:59] Miko Lee: But for you personally, how do you balance work and life with all of these things that are going on? You're still a professor, you're still, you know, been running the bookstore, you've been doing your activism, you've been doing so many different things. How do you, Harvey, I know in the past you used to do Tai Chi, and I'm just wondering, are there other tools that you utilize on the daily to be able to stay sane in a crazy world? [00:21:20] Harvey Dong: Well, sometimes if I, I. Extremely stressed. I would get on a bike and ride it and I would take pictures of water. [00:21:30] Miko Lee: What is it about water that's calming for you? [00:21:32] Harvey Dong: Uh, well, the, the, if, if you ever look at the bay, the water changes, you know, sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower, sometimes it's blue, sometimes it's gray. So it, it does, it does, uh, make you kind of, um, think about how things. Um, and it never stops. You know, it, it's always something you can learn and pick up. Tai Chi, I, too, Kung fu, especially when we started, we were getting threats and, uh, from the. Messages. And, you know, when you started the bookstore, [00:22:13] Miko Lee: you were getting threats? [00:22:13] Harvey Dong: Oh, oh, yeah, yeah. And the Asian Community Center, we, we, because we were an alternative to the, uh, conservative establishment, um, in Chinatown, uh, there were newspaper articles and, uh, from conservative newspapers that, that, uh, something should be done. And, and, and, and, and then we, we, we did, uh, uh, participate in some activities where, um, the Dolui movement, uh, back then, I, I, I remember it was attacked by, uh, hired thugs. And so it was ver very tense times too. You know, it wasn't like, um, easy going, you know? Right. There's, there's always violence, the threat of violence, and you have to figure. How to survive, uh, preserve your, your energy and also, uh, protect, uh, the community. So what did you figure out about that? Uh, well, an elder came down and sat down with us and said, uh, I'm gonna bring you guys to, to these, uh, uh, seafoods who can, uh, teach you, uh, some martial. . Um, so, so we did that and, but, but I, I would say that the, the main thing was to establish ties and con connect and connections with, uh, the youth in the community, you know, that could be used against you and, um, know your enemies, know your enemy, uh, build allyships, um, run, uh, programs that have meaning. You know, we, we. We, uh, distributed food to, um, maybe a thousand families every month. You know, uh, Lonnie Ding, the filmmaker actually, uh, found that there was this government surplus food, and she initiated that program and the Asian Community Center provided the. So every month it, the, the, the place from front to back was filled with surplus food, And in that surplus food we would have literature, uh, uh, about resources, services. Uh, a lot of the, uh, the people who received the food were workers and when they had labor disputes, they would come to us and we would provide translation. Uh, seek out legal aid and so forth. Yeah. So [00:24:46] Miko Lee: provide the community what they need. Harvey Dong: Yeah. Food, legal services, advice. Yeah. And educate them about what's going on in the exactly capitalistic system. Yeah. Um, we're hearing words of wisdom from East Wind Books Founder Harvey Dong. We're gonna take a moment and just have a little break and listen to some music. Uh, the Yellow Pearl from. Old School Movement Song Collective Charlie Chin, Chrissy Gemma, and Joanne Nobuko Miyamoto. And we'll be back in a moment after listening to Yellow Pearl. Song [00:27:02] Miko Lee: Few. All right. That was Yellow Pearl from A Grain of Sand by Old School Collective Charlie Chin, Chris Ijima, and Joanne Nobuko Miyamoto. And we are here with the folks from East Wind Bookstore and you are tuned in to Apex Express, a 94.1 K P F A, and 89.3 KPF FB in Berkeley. 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K2 four eight BR in Santa Cruz and online@kpfa.org. So we are here talking about East Wind Books, talking about organizing and talking about the impacts that this has on your body. And I'm gonna actually throw the mic over to Cheryl Trong to ask a question of Harvey about, that you're curious about. Go ahead. [00:27:54] Cheryl Truong: um, hi everyone. I'm Cheryl. I work at Eastman Books. I've been working here for maybe two years now. Over two years. Um, yeah, I mean, just going back to that question of navigating this work life balance, I think there's something that's not always talked about in these radical organizing is the effect it has on your life. Kind of like a sacrifice. And while Harvey is super humble and you know, is someone who does everything with all of his heart, as I know, and Bonnie's also right here next to me on my right, who also works at the bookstore and started when I did, we've seen just within these last two years, you know, the, how much it affects. How much organizing affects you and how much you sacrifice for it. Um, something Harvey doesn't talk about often is one, like financially, like back in the day when he was organizing, he didn't have a fridge. He would put a gallon of milk on his balcony every night just to keep it from spoiling and eat bread. Um, so there's a lot you do. I mean, there's a lot you gain too. You know, the community. And that spiritual, you know, aspect of fighting for the things you believe in with people that you care about. Um, but there's also, you know, you sacrifice a lot. I mean, also, you know, b the co-owner of East Wind Books, she stays up till 3:00 AM ordering books and planning our next events. You know, they both put all of their heart into everything that they do. And while it's such a beautiful sentiment, they're also. Real life aspects as well. Um, oh, I was supposed to ask a question. [00:29:37] Miko Lee: Well, Cheryl, I think you wanted to ask about how, um, you were mentioning this to me before about how both Harvey and Bee hold all of this space in their bodies, how they take care of themselves, how they work through this, because you've been doing it for a long time. So what are the elements that keep you going day? . [00:29:58] Harvey Dong: Um, well, I just wanted to address the, uh, the milk being put up on the window. So , [00:30:04] Miko Lee: critical component. . [00:30:07] Harvey Dong: Uh, yeah, actually I, I, I did get away with doing that and I thought it was convenient, except that one day I saw a rat, um, trying to get the milk. So after that, that, that stop [00:30:20] Miko Lee: So then what did you do with the milk Harvey? [00:30:20] Harvey Dong:  Um, well, shortly after that, me and. Um, got married and she did have a refrigerator, . And so, so with that marriage we, the wonders of marriage, we had a refrigerator . But, um, but definitely, I, I, I, I think it, it is not unusual for, for activists in the sixties and seventies to, to, um, do many tasks cuz there were so many things going on. Time was co. You know, you say, uh, 1968, so many things happened in one year, um, internationally, the war nationally, um, assassination of civil rights, uh, leader, uh, Martin Luther King, uh, SF State, uh, students, uh, negotiating for, uh, uh, thorough studies, um, the, the Chinatown protests against Poverty. Um, the French, uh, student rebellion, the Zarin student rebellion. So, so time is really compressed and you feel that you, you have to do the, the best you can, you know, given the, the short amount of time. I, I, I think that people felt that they, they did have to sacrifice because of the, the fact that, uh, the world could end too, you know? And so, so, so there's that time. That a lot of the activists had, uh, back then. And, um, so some of that, uh, probably does come back and kind of, uh, define what I do. I, but lately, I, I do know that, you know, as you get older, you, you can't do so many things at. Uh, much lesser. Remember ? , [00:32:16] Miko Lee: I think you have an amazing memory. You're always spitting dates out that I'm saying. How does he keep all that in his mind? ? Yeah. Um, we're gonna get, we're gonna talk about the future of East Wind Books in a moment, but I, I wanna just go and talk a moment about like, what is a memory that stood out? Like when you, when you're just talking about how you learn martial arts, um, as a way. You have, have safety and also a sense of wellness. I'm wondering, was that before or after the whole Bruce Lee Wong jog Jack Man fight schools that were in East Wind Books. And can you tell that story to our audience about what [00:32:51] Harvey Dong: happened? Well, the, the learning of martial arts was, was actually, um, even before Bruce Lee became famous, you know, because we, there was definitely a need to defend yourself safety. Yeah. For safety. Um, but years later, uh, at East w Books of Berkeley, um, there was, um, a book event we had, um, with, uh, Rick Wing who teaches at community college. I think he's a math professor, but he was also the, uh, the. assigned by Wal Jackman to carry on the legacy of his school. And Wong Jackman was the person who fought Bruce Lee. And there's many stories about who, who won that? Wong JackMan or Bruce [00:33:41] Miko Lee: Lee won one of the most famous karate battles. Yeah. Ever. [00:33:42] Harvey Dong:  And it's, it, it, it's, it is comp continually being retold with different angles and stuff like that. But, uh, Rick Wing, um, did research on it and he wrote about it. Um, I think it's online. Um, and he invited, uh, he wanted to have a book event and we had at East Wind Books and he invited all the martial arts schools in the Bay Area and. , the first thought that came to my mind is, oh, no , what's gonna happen? Yeah. What's gonna happen? Or, or, or, how big is our space? How big is our space? And, um, would this create like rivalry between different clubs over their styles? And so, so there were TaeKwonDo, uh people, karate people, kung fu. Um, how many people showed up? Uh, about 45 or 50. Mm-hmm. and some of 'em were huge , big people, Uhhuh, and they were, uh, but we just sat around and, and, and, and people were sharing stories about their martial arts club and, and their interactions with Bruce Lee and Wal Jackman and, and, and, and, and then there's one huge, uh, Puerto Rican, uh, karate guy said, man, this. uh, I feel like a, a child in a candy shop. I, I, I'm really enjoying all these stories. , . [00:35:12] Miko Lee: So it became a talk story event. Yeah. Not just like, oh, my school's better than your school, or, he won this [00:35:17] Harvey Dong: fight. Yeah, yeah. None of that. Yeah. And, and, and, uh, people really respected each other. And when the, the, the, the, the event ended, uh, , everybody went across the street to the Taiwan restaurant, which is no longer there.Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, um, for, for a meal. And, um, one person said, I don't, I don't know what I should do, uh, because I feel that we all got together here, and this is like a. Sacred place. And then he turned around and did a bow as if he was in, in, in a, uh, a studio in Dojo, dojo, , or, good. Love it. [00:35:54] Miko Lee: Love it. That is so fun. Are there other, um, memories that have stood out for you in the 41 years of experiences that have happened at East Wind Books that you think, oh [00:36:04] Harvey Dong: wow. Uh, let's see. Yang did an event, [00:36:10] Miko Lee: Jean Yang of the graphic novelist, the Eisner Award-winning graphic novelist that did American Boy in Chinese. That's actually just about to come out as a whole series, I think, on Disney with, um, almost all of the same performers from everything everywhere all at once. But anyway, that Jean Yang, yes. [00:36:31] Harvey Dong: Yeah, yeah. He, he, he tells the story about how he, he. , um, uh, affections for East Wind Books of Berkeley because when he first started out, he created this, this zine that was, uh, stapled and he came into East Wind Books. And he said, uh, would you carry this? And I said, yeah, just put it there. But, but he went, but he went to other stores and they, they wouldn't take it cuz they thought he was this young kid. Yeah. Uh, trying to promote something that wouldn't grow or develop. Do they sell? Uh, yeah. Yeah. They sell. Do [00:37:06] Miko Lee: you have one? Um, that would be such [00:37:08] Harvey Dong: a collector's item. I think we, we, we, we sold out. Oh. But, but he always remembers that. So whenever we have an event, you know, he. ask him to do an event. He's willing to. Yeah. I love [00:37:20] Miko Lee: that. Yeah. That is so amazing. Um, okay, now tell me about what made U N B decide to close East Wind Books? Uh, [00:37:29] Harvey Dong: well, it, there's the issue of gentrification, the rent, so there's the economic part there. Uh, age is, is another part. And, um, family responsi. . Um, so we had to kind of weigh that, you know, um, I, I think one time, um, the last time we were thinking of closing it, I, at, at, at a book event. I, um, I think it was, um, uh, black Against the Empire, um, is, uh, Waldo Martin, um, um, worked on a. About the Black Panthers. Mm-hmm. and, uh, Bobby Seal was there and we, we talked about, uh, the importance of the book and the importance of the bookstore. Uhhuh . And I think I said, oh yeah, we'll, we'll be here forever. [00:38:29] Miko Lee: Alas . [00:38:30] Harvey Dong: And so after making that statement, we, we did commit for another five years on. You, [00:38:38] Miko Lee: you boxed yourself in there, , but I'm, I'm wondering you what your take is. Okay. We're gonna get back to that one second, but I'm wondering what your take is on ethnic bookstores like Marcus Garvey books and East Wind Books. It's really there. Yeah. There's, it's a, it's a hard thing to keep going these [00:38:54] Harvey Dong: days. Uh, yeah, yeah, definitely, uh, difficult, uh, largely having to do with rent and, uh, gentrification and, and we have a, um, a huge. you're in, um, net, net, net, uh, bill mm-hmm. , which means that we, we pay something like 4% of the bill for the entire building, including water, to insurance, to property tax, to Right. Uh, repairs, which is not feasible. Yeah. So it, it definitely, uh, every year it's, it's, um, increasing. Um, and then the, uh, overhead we have to deal with, uh, The payroll tax, which is important, but um, is, it's a big pill. And, and also the, um, um, sales tax. Yeah. That always comes up. [00:39:48] Miko Lee: So modern living, modern living as, uh, then the burdens of trying to just keep things going are just too much. [00:39:56] Banoo Afkhami: Yeah. But to go back to your question, Miko, um, about like, you know, the role of ethnic bookstores, uh, well, I, I can't speak for like Harvey, but I can speak on, you know, as a staff person who has seen and helped many customers through the store and also as a person, like who enjoys shopping at Eastwood and spends a portion of their paycheck back at the bookstore just buying books again. Love it. Um, , it's ethnic bookstores are really hard to come by and, you know, as Harvey like really highlighted like there's a lot of costs that just make it really hard to exist as a small bookstore without all the additional like, challenges you face. Just, you know, of like carrying a very niche selective books that you know though very important, not a lot of people are gonna. Really want to go for it, you know, because Right. It goes against, um, pop culture. It goes against like, you know, the common media stream, you know, which is centrist, if not conservative. [00:40:50] Miko Lee: Or even just taking some young person's little zine that they stapled together. and putting it on the shelf. [00:40:56] Banoo Afkhami: Yeah. You know, and supporting like local artists and everything. Yeah. Like it's, they're super important, you know. Though, you know, though we are small, um, you know, there are so many people that come into the store and are just like, wow. You know, like, I've never seen it all in one place. Right. You know, I, I like, I'm, you know, like seen [00:41:13] Miko Lee: what in [00:41:13] Banoo Afkhami: All plate, one place seen. So, you know, we feature Asian American books, but also just radical, radical books at all times. And by authors? Yes, by bipo authors. And you know, like for example, I remember, especially with like, you know, our Filipino-American population here in the Bay Area, there's not a lot of representation in media of like Asian-Americans in general, but especially anything outside of like, you know, Chinese American, Japanese-American, Korean American, like the rest of us go kind of forgotten, you know? Right. Um, and so like, you know, especially like seeing this happen with like a lot of more like, you know, niche communities, you know, like. just a few days ago, you know, there's a Phil Filipino American, uh, person, and they came into the store and they're like, do you have any stuff on, like, anythings on like Filipino, you know, diaspora, Filipino American stuff. I'm like, yeah, actually we have a whole shelf on it. You know, I added them over. There's exception on that . And like, they were so heart warmed and overwhelmed by that, and it's like, oh my God, I ha I never saw them in all in one place. You know? Like you might find like in, you know, an Alan Robles book, you know, here, or you know, you could find like this other book there, you know, but you don't. all together. Right. And when you see an entire shelf full, it's kind of magical. Um, and I remember that person, like I ended up bringing them a stool just cuz they wanted to like, flip through all the books and like decide which ones they wanted to go through, you know? And, and they ended up buying a bunch of them, you know, and it's just, it's moments like that, you know, where you remember, wow, like, this is a really important thing to have. Um, and it's really difficult to keep open, you know, because, , there's, you know, these communities are intentionally like left out of mainstream media. Right. You know, like there's, it's a constant fight to get more representation and when you're already underrepresented, you know, and like the most that maybe a common person might want to get. In the store. I don't, I shouldn't say common, but like, you know, a person who only watches mainstream media. Like they, they might come in and be like, Hey, do you have the new chan? You know, like the Chani comic book or like, do you have like, you know, like, you know, crying in Amart, although that one's really good, you know? Or like That's a good book, . Yeah. But it's like, you know, they only, what's the bestseller ones? Yeah, what's the bestseller? You know, do, right. Do you have like, , you know what, what was the other one? Bullet train. You know, that one sold. Like things like that. Right, [00:43:31] Miko Lee: right. Well, um, I love hearing that about how there will be East Wind is continuing in some way and I wonder if, um, both Bonu and Cheryl, can you talk about what is the future of East Wind Books, the brick and mortar Store we know is closing in April. Right. And, and we're inviting folks to come to the bookstore. Yeah. There's a what, tell us what's happening at the bookstore before it closes first and then where, where we are going in the future. [00:44:00] Cheryl Truong: So right when you said, asked us to start talking about the future, Harvey gave me this really funny look. [00:44:06] Miko Lee: I noticed that. What's that about? Please tell us. [00:44:08] Cheryl Truong: I mean, he's curious too, you know, because this is something really only our generation can answer. Um, so, okay. So as for now, I mean, Eastland Books is still gonna be here in the Bay Area. We're still gonna be doing our community events. We're gonna be online distributing books on a even wider reach. Now, you know, we can ship. Globally, uh, instead of just having in-store pickup, things like that. Um, [00:44:37] Banoo Afkhami: our website is asia book center.com [00:44:39] Miko Lee: and we're talking about doing some kind of apex collaboration Yes. So that we can celebrate a p i books on air as well. But what's happening if somebody walks into the bookstore right now on University Avenue, what do they see? What's happening right now? [00:44:54] Cheryl Truong: You're gonna see a whole bunch of. On for sale for $5. Wow. And we're talking actually like really amazing, incredible books. Um, so we're trying to clear our shelves. Lots of really great books are on sale for 30% off. Um, you're gonna see Harvey in the back office drinking a can of Diet Coke, even though I tell him not to. You'll probably see me or Bonoo at the front counter and we're. . Also happy that it lasted for as long as it did and will end [00:45:31] Miko Lee: strong. And then there's community events that are still ongoing. I know that you have one coming up. Yes. The Oakland Cultural Center. Asian Cultural Center. Can you tell us about that one? [00:45:40] Cheryl Truong: I'm so excited for this one. So Chiwan just re released a book called, have you Eaten yet? Recipes from Chinese American Family or something like that. Um, and then he's going to be in conversation. Amazing. Chef Martin Jann from YN Can Cook, and I think a little birdie told me that, uh, Jann is going to be doing a surprise cooking demonstration at the O A C C too, which is something I think they've never done before. So yeah, we're excited. [00:46:11] Miko Lee:  So how do people find out about coming to that event? [00:46:14] Cheryl Truong: Well, you can go on our Instagram. , uh, at Eastwood books or follow the Oakland Asian Cultural Center at Oakland Cultural Center on Instagram. Or you can go on occ.cc/events and you'll see a whole bunch of their events there too. [00:46:31] Banoo Afkhami: And you can also check out our website and send up to our newsletter, uh, which is also on our website. Um, like I said, it's asia book center.com. Uh, we post all of our events on there as well as links to purchase the books of the events. [00:46:46] Miko Lee: Um, so while the brick and mortar store is closing, you will still continue.I know East Wind Books is also a nonprofit, so the nonprofit arm is the aspect that's continuing. Is that right? Mm-hmm. . So the community center part, the community, maybe it's a virtual community or a community center at different locations will continue to exist? Yes, [00:47:09] Harvey Dong: correct. And then the, the other, um, activity that'll continue is, um, uh, the publishing of, um, books. [00:47:19] Miko Lee: Oh, great. Tell us about that. [00:47:20] Harvey Dong:  Uh, well, professor Carlos Munoz, who's active in the Chicano movement. is, um, writing a book about his, uh, life story, uh, his autobiography, and it it'll be published by East Wind Books of Berkeley. And the book covers his life from being involved in the, uh, LA student, uh, uh, blowouts. It was a huge walkout in, um, around 1968 and, um, his, uh, teaching of ethnic studies and Chicano studies. at uc, Berkeley and his activism in the Chi Chicano movement. Um, another uh, book that we recently released is titled The Power of Our Stories Won't Stop. And Who's that by? Uh, that's published by, um, uh, Helene Helen Lee. that book, uh, uh, is an anthology of. peoples of color, uh, who write about their early activism and sharing their stories, uh, to the younger generation. Oh, [00:48:37] Miko Lee: love that. That would be, that's very appropriate to our conversation today. Maybe we could do a book club on that. That sounds fun. Um, how many books has East Wind published? [00:48:48] Harvey Dong: We put 'em out on the table that day and there must be about six or seven. [00:48:52] Miko Lee: There's more than that. There's [00:48:53] Banoo Afkhami: more than that. Harvey. Those was just the ones we had on hand, Harvey. Yeah. And also like I, I was limited on table space there. Okay. You know , [00:49:01] Miko Lee: you'll see East Wind at a series of different community events that are happening. Um, I saw you backstage at Cambodian Rock Band. We. So good. Yeah, so different events. You'll see East Wind books and we always encourage folks to support local bookstores, not the big bad monsters. In [00:49:18] Cheryl Truong: addition, uh, there's a East Wind documentary in the works being worked on by Banu, uh, our good, good French Shine Lee and um, myself. [00:49:30] Miko Lee: Oh, great. What's the timeline for that, Cheryl? Tell us about the document. , we're [00:49:35] Banoo Afkhami: gonna hopefully have a teaser done by sometime in April. Um, you know, to commemorate the closing of the store. And I don't know, as of right now, I mean, there's no complete set timeline. We're just kind of, we want to capture these stories and the stories of, you know, Harvey and b and, you know, everyone involved in the movement. Um, So we actually agreed, you know, a couple weeks ago in a, in, in a Zoom meeting, sometime ridiculously late into the middle of the night , um, that, you know, we wouldn't set a 100% firm timeline for the super final product, but we will be releasing a teaser sometime in April. Um, just because we wanna make sure that we're doing justice to their stories and we don't want. Rush that process. Um, especially, you know, once we, you know, feel, like, feel out what, like the final through lines of the story are gonna be, um, and just to make sure that we do it just as, because it's such an important part of the community, it's such an important part of the Asian American movement. Um, and it can serve as a really beautiful metaphor for, you know, passing the torch and also just. Um, what it means to be an activist. So we don't want to rush that process. But, um, we're [00:50:53] Cheryl Truong: also definitely approaching it kind of with a whole bunch of seeds of curiosity. I think our hypothesis is kind of us asking how do we navigate, uh, post East One society? Not that, you know, east wind's forever gone, but just how do we move on after being impacted? Influentially by such a wonderful [00:51:16] Miko Lee: place. I love that. Thank you for sharing. Can each of you, Cheryl and Bonous, share what, who you come from, who are your people, and what is the legacy you carry with you, especially as you go into this next envisioning of what East Wind becomes? I [00:51:33] Cheryl Truong: love this question so much, right? When you asked it, Bonu, Bonu basically gave me a mental fist bump. Um, we love talking about this, so I. . I was born and raised in Long Beach, California, right? Harvey? Harvey loves Long Beach, um, . So I was born and raised in Long Beach. I come from a family of three or four siblings, or no, three other siblings, four people in total. Um, both of my parents are refugees from Vietnam. My mom left Vietnam when she was young to China, and then eventually, Had to leave China and walk or and go to Cambodia. And from Cambodia, she walked all the way to Vietnam again. Um, my dad was part of the second wave of Vietnamese boat people. He was on sea for, you know, five, five days, four nights I think, before he eventually landed in a refugee camp in Malaysia. Um, so I think our connect. I feel really similarly with Harvey, our connection to water. You know, we can trace our bloodlines through waterlines basically. Um, and yeah, we're, yeah, that's my family I guess. I have other family in Orange County as well in the little Saigon area, and my sister and I are up here in the East Bay. Love it. [00:52:52] Miko Lee: Thank you. And finally, I'd love to hear. [00:52:55] Banoo Afkhami: Yeah, so, um, my mother's actually Mexican American. My dad is Iranian. Um, he immigrated after the revolution. Um, as an artist. He was a photographer and at the time he was studying and working to be a director in cinema. Um, but then the revolution happened and there were a lot of restrictions on art, um, and self-expression. So he had a really complicated immigration story. Um, That I'm probably not gonna own to right now, but he, uh, after a lot of trial and error and years of trying, he made his way over to America. Um, and he opened a Photoshop, um, in San Leandro near the Bayfair Mall. Um, and my mom, uh, so she was Mexican American. Uh, she grew up in la um, To at the HNO family. So we're at the Hans, uh, generationally speaking. So like the border crossed us, we did not cross the border. . Yeah. Uh, we were Mexicans native to Texas. Um, and then Texas became a part of the US after my people were already there. Um, but yeah, so my grandparents left Texas because Jim Crow there was really, really awful. And, um, they moved to LA and my mom grew up in LA and. . Um, then she moved up to north, uh, northern California and she was into photography as a hobby. And so that's how my parents met. Um, my mom was his customer and so that meant for growing up in a really interesting upbringing. Um, just in the sense of it was weird, but in a lot of ways, being Iranian taught me how to be Chicano and being Chicano taught me how to be proud of being Iranian and Asian American. Cuz as far as diaspora goes, like. Um, like as Chicanos, we've been here and dealing with this type of racism for like a lot longer than the Iranian community has, where as a lot of us only immigrated in the eighties. So it really helped having, you know, people who like for generations understood what racism was to a community that was. So that's where it's like, you know, like I'm, you know, second gen in this, you know, where it's like my dad immigrated, you know, hoping to live the American dream and, you know, Now I'm the one that has to deal with like growing up Iranian American in a society that, you know, hardly wants to recognize that you exist. So in that sense, to go back to your original question of like, what does that do for, you know, east Wind or whatever, I mean, or whatever, , . Well, I don't know. I think in terms of our generation when it comes to community work, I don't feel like I can take claim. our movement. I think our movement is made up of everyone. You know, I don't think it can just be one person or, um, what I do see in terms of differences between our generation and older generations is some of the ways that we organize. Um, and also like, I don't know, we have to kind of evolve that and evolve how we trust each other. Cuz I remember Harvey, you know, would talk about how back in the day, they just had to trust in each other to show up and for us, I don't know, we have to be more creative with it. Um, [00:56:09] Miko Lee: thank you so much for sharing so much information about Legacy and about the future of East Wind Books and how we have to work together to be able to make it all happen. this is so critical for our movement, for our movement building. Webid a fond farewell to the brick and mortar store of East Wind Books. We encourage people to come there. Door closes,  in April and encourage people to get involved in all the different events that are happening. Um, that will continue to happen both online and at different locales. So find out more information at the East Wind website. You can also check out more information about. Amazing community events that are happening. There's a Women of Color Leadership conference tomorrow in San Francisco. There's the People Get Ready Political Conference at uc, Berkeley on Saturday. Cambodian Rock Bands still playing at Berkeley Wrap and Muni raised me is at San Francisco. Check those out. Um, and please check out our website, k pfa.org to find out more about these events and about East Wind Books. And we thank all of you out. Listeners, keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions for the world. Because your voices are important. Apex Express is a proud member of Acre Asian Americans for civil rights inequality, a network of progressive AAP I groups. Find out more@acre.org. Apex Express is produced by Paige Chung Swati. Raam Anju Pret Man, Shak Jalina Keenly, and me Miko Lee, thank you so much to our engineer, Jose Gonzalez, for making this show happen. Woo, and to all have a great night. The post APEX Express 3.23.23 The Legacy of Eastwind Books appeared first on KPFA.

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Transcript The post API Observability with Jean Yang appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Richard talks with Akita Software founder and former PhD Computer Science professor Jean Yang, about about her experiences in academia and in industry as a startup founder, and how different programmers think about guarantees - or lack thereof - in chaotic production systems

I cannot overstate the importance of Cece Bell's EL DEAFO. For both us, as a society, and for the prestige that it brought to graphic novels with the citation of that Newbery Honor, the first graphic novel to earn that shiny silver sticker! Get to know how Cece Bell came to be in her Origin Story!Jarrett: Hello everyone. My name is Jarrett Krosoczka and I wanna say hello to my friend, Cece Bell. Cece: Hi everybody. Hi Jarrett. It's so nice to see you. Jarrett: Oh, it's nice to see you. You're I miss you. I haven't seen you in so long. Even... Before the pandemic, we hadn't run into each other on book tour. Cece: It had been a long time, I guess we probably haven't seen each other for four years. Maybe. Jarrett: It might be. Yeah, it might be. I always see your silly and goofy posts on Instagram. So I really feel like we, we haven't missed a beat because I've been following along, you made a beautiful drawing for your mom on her birthday. Cece: Oh, yes. I did. Yeah. I, yeah, we, I've actually been off of Instagram for a little while because I was finding that it was too much of a pull away from, my productivity. So I'm allowed to look at it every Sunday. Jarrett: Ah! Cece: Nothing for the rest of the week. It's hard. Jarrett: I feel like if I did that, my thumb would always be like, ah, I need to look and scroll and see things. That is some amazing willpower, Cece Bell. So I, we know your story somewhat from your book, El Deafo, and as a person who's also written a graphic memoir, you decide like what you're gonna put on the page, what doesn't make it to the page.And I've said this to you a bunch, and you've heard this a million times, but El Deafo is... Such a powerful book and it's a pillar in graphic novel history because your book was the very first one ever to get a Newberry silver sticker like that really pushed the whole medium of graphic novels forward.And of course, when you sat down to make that book, that was nowhere near in your head. And we'll get to that. But before we do, I'm interested in how Cece Bell became Cece Bell, the graphic novelist, the cartoonist, the author. What are your earliest memories of drawing and making and reading comics tell us a little bit more about what your house was like growing up in regards to like the creative sources you consumed and created.Cece: Okay. Wow. Let's see. I think I always like drawing and mark making and that kind of thing. And let's see. I do remember when I got very sick in 1975 when I was about four and a half which is where the book El Deafo starts, that I did a lot of drawing there in the hospital. And my parents think that I drew probably 100 drawings of the same thing over and over again.It was just a little girl with a green face underneath the rainbow. Her body was shaped like a triangle and I just drew that repeatedly over and over. And that was probably an early experience of drawing being therapy in a way. But I always drew that was basically the only book that I would check out of my school library every Friday, the same Ed Emberly book; Make a World. And I really wasn't interested in reading that much. I could read, I didn't have trouble with it, but I just wasn't interested. I wanted to be making things. so Ed Emberly was a major part of my life.And gosh, my... My home life, I was really lucky. My father was a doctor and my mother was a nurse. And I wasn't limited financially, basically. And it was a very supportive household, but in the book, there's this feeling that that my parents are fairly normal people and my siblings are fairly normal people.And if I had focused on my family instead of on just the story of me coping with my deafness in school and at home it would've been much, much stranger. My family is bonkers weird and they are very funny. Oh, my goodness. They are just so weird. My mom is so weird. My dad is... We're just weird.And so I, I tamped that down a lot because... The focus wasn't on that. It was on deafness and feeling isolated. So anyway, but my family was, yeah, there was my mom. There was a picture of my mom. Nuts, very dramatic and funny. And I think I get a lot of my storytelling abilities from my mom's side of the family and word play and nicknames and all that stuff comes into play.And then my father's side is very really talented with hand skills. My grandmother was an amazing seamstress and my great grandmother was an amazing seamstress, but she was also a sign painter. I always found that really cool. A sign painter. Wow. I think that sort of some of the mix of who I was growing up and a huge focus on weird and probably Ed Eberly and the fact that my father got weekly issues of the New Yorker were major influences the New Yorker cover and then the New Yorker cartoon in the inside.That's a little bit of, a little bit of what was going on around me. Jarrett: Okay. So I want to meet these people who are more cuckoo bananas than Cece Bell, because you are so wonderfully and beautifully... Goofy and fun. And you might be the only person I know who consistently uses the hot dog emoji in text messages, so... Cece: That's the best one ever!Jarrett: I imagine that must have been, yeah, I guess that makes such sense. What - may I ask? What did your siblings grow up to do? Cece: My siblings they struggled more than I did in terms of - this is gonna sound strange, but in a lot of ways, my hearing loss ended up being a real gift and the main way that it did that is I ended up getting attention from our parents.That... More attention from our parents than my older siblings did, which was extremely unfair, but that's just how it happened, how it played out. And so they really struggled. They struggled with that lack of attention and just, they are my sister is five years older and my brother is seven years older and they're growing up was very different from mine, even that slight not generational, but time period was different.And so they, they are probably the funniest, most creative people that I know, but neither one of them has found that lifelong dream career, which is something I struggle with them. That sense of guilt, even though what happened, wasn't my fault. I'm deeply aware of how much it changed things for them.And it's a, it's an interesting thing, but they are so funny. If you think I'm funny, spend time with them and you'll just think that I'm as dull as a brick because those two and when we all three get together, it is just, it's pretty magical. And I'm so grateful that we get along and that we're as close as we are.They're terrific siblings. Yeah. Jarrett: Wow. What that is a, what a beautiful testament of your love for them. And their love for you comes across so clearly in the book, in regards to you, the baby of the family and they're concerned for your health that's, and I connect to that as well, because I too was, the baby of the family, and there was a lot of trauma going on.And with that, I got a lot of attention. And I loved drawing as a form of escape. And I'm so touched to hear that your time in the hospital was spent drawing because that is a testament to the power of creating in the arts to get you through some hard times. Did you ever have an epiphany along the lines where you realized this thing could be a career for you?Like this drawing thing? Cece: That took a while. I was in school, in high school and the first part of college I was really super academic. And some of that was pressure from my own self, but also pressure from my dad. I think my dad wanted me to be a doctor like him, and I've have found that's a theme among a lot of cartoonists and illustrators that there was this parent who pushed, but pushed them to be something that they didn't want to be.And that child like me in my case I think [inaudible] has a similar thing. And the name is leaving me... American born Chinese? Jarrett: Oh, Jean Yang.Cece: Helped me. Yeah. Yeah. Just that, that pressure. And There was that, but in school I was really academic trying to fulfill this thing for myself and for my father and overcompensating for the deafness.I didn't want people to think of me as "that deaf kid". I wanted them to think of me, " that smart kid". And so I worked really hard and I never considered art as a career because it didn't seem like it was even doable. It wasn't doable. So when I got to college, I was an English major and I hated it.I hated it. I don't know what I was doing. Having to write papers and read books and but while I was in college, I met Tom Angelberger, who ended up becoming my husband and he was an art major and I did take some art classes. There he is! There he is. He's so smart. And we started hanging out and I think he recognized that I was pretty good at it.And I think he also recognized that I was unhappy as an English major. And so it was Tom who encouraged me to switch majors and just go for it. And I did, and suddenly I was happy and it was the best move I ever made, but it took a while longer to figure out what I was going to do with it. Jarrett: Wow. You know... I obviously I know that you and Tom really support one, one another artistically, but I didn't realize he was really such an integral part of your origin story of you becoming the Cece Bell that we all know, that we know is the name on the spine of the book, the name on the front cover with all of those shiny stickers. And, yeah. And so you were college sweethearts, and then you both got catapulted out into the real world. And so what happened from there? Did you graduate with an English degree?Cece: We, no, no. I got out of that as quick as I could. I keep saying I don't like reading and I do, but the book has to get me.Or it has to interest me from chapter one. And if it doesn't, I throw it out. So there were a lot of books that didn't interest me in chapter one in the English department, but I was out of there, but no, we I ended up getting a degree in fine arts and Tom did two, and we went to the college of William and Mary, which is in Williamsburg, Virginia, and which isn't really known for art. It's known for like business and physics and science. But we finished school and then we took a trip around the country together in an old Volkswagen van. And then we decided, because we survived that we could get married and survived that too. So we got married and I decided to go to graduate school at in Ohio. And so we got married right before that. And so at this point we were just 22. We were super, super young. And I decided I needed to, I wanted to become an illustrator. That I wouldn't have fit in with the whole fine arts crowd. I had this vision that I would have to go to New York city and drink champagne and talk about art and that just founded atrocious.So I thought; "Illustration!" And so I decided to go to a graduate degree in design and illustration, and Tom went with me and basically... He worked in a factory and juggled on the weekend, and that... And he paid for all of the time I was in graduate school. And then and then I finished and then we moved back to Virginia.He learned a lot from what I was learning. So it was neat. I would share my projects with him and talk about everything with him. And I think he picked it up through osmosis, but he actually, his path was really different. He was working in a factory, but then eventually ended up becoming a newspaper reporter, both in Ohio and then back in Virginia.And he was really good at it. And I think that's how he became a writer, was through newspaper writing. And his first book, which was about a group of kids exploring the local sewage department. That was based on a story that he wrote for the newspaper. Anyway he's a huge - Tom Angelberger is probably the reason I'm talking to you right now is because he put me through school.He was the one that, I think he understood me before. I understood me in a lot of ways. Jarrett: Wow. Wow. Wow. I, that's beautiful. I feel like that story you just told us could be... Like a limited series on a streaming service. That is just such a beautiful, that could be a romantic comedy or something, Cece, that's amazing. Wow. So you landed back in Virginia, you got hitched you got hitched and smart to travel across country together to see if you could survive that your relationship could survive that before marriage that's smart. That should be a requirement. So why, so he was writing for the newspaper.And were you like what were you hoping to do with your illustrations? Did you have books for kids in mind? Did you like what were you thinking? Cece: Gosh, when we moved back to Virginia, I was, we were both 25 and we moved back mostly because Tom was homesick for the mountains. I would've stayed in Ohio.And I actually applied for a job at American Greeting, which was, or I think it's still in Cleveland and did not get that job. What were they thinking? But I didn't get hired by American Greeting. And I was bummed cuz it was in a, that the office space was just beautiful and the employees would get these like every other year sabbaticals and it was beautiful.So I was pretty sad, but Tom wanted to go back to Virginia and I did. And so we did, and when we first came back Tom had trouble finding a newspaper job, but I got a job as an illustrator and designer for a small company. That made exotic pet supplies.So for three years I was making packaging and writing copy and doing all this stuff for this little company in Virginia. And the work was really great because it forced me to learn how to use Photoshop. And at the time it was called Freehand, like illustrator. You may remember Freehand.Jarrett: Yeah.Cece: And it forced me to learn to use the computer. I, my time in graduate school, the computer stuff was just starting. It was more, we were using a Xerox machine and cutting and pasting and using all that old, Ruby list kind of stuff. So the computer was still really new. So that job was good because it forced me to learn those things.But I was working for the devil. Satan himself was my boss and I had to get outta there. And so I don't know if you've ever seen this show, The Prisoner, the it's that British show and the beginning, the introduction has the prisoner is an FBI - not FBI, Secret Service agent. And he he quits his job and he like throws his keys down and storms out.I had visions that, that, that was how I was going to quit. But instead I got up like at 5:30 in the morning and I wrote a note and I put it in an envelope with the key. And I crept into my boss's office and put the envelope on his desk and it basically said I quit and don't contact me ever. And then I snuck out and I was at no two weeks notice.Ugh, I was pretty shabby, but I was so glad to get out in there. And then from that, I started freelancing at this crazy local paper... Paper product place that licensed stuff. Like I got to make folders that featured N-Sync and the, whatever those boys are called, those boy bands. Yes, I Want it That Way.And I got to make all these school supplies for N-Sync and with the Crayola stuff on there, and it was this crazy hodgepodge. It was the best job. And so when I was doing that, it freed me up to start thinking about kids books and my graduate thesis had been this wackadoodle children's book that will never is the light of day, but the illustrations are great.And the story's not so good, but I thought the illustrations were great, but anyway So then I started to think; "Maybe I can do this." And I finally had an idea that I felt like it was good enough to pursue, and I pursued it and I made this really polished dummy that I could that I could send out.And at the time Candlewick Press was accepting ,accepting work without an agent, unsolicited stuff. So I sent it to Candlewick and like three months later there was a message on the answering machine. Which of course I didn't understand because I don't understand that. I don't understand answering machine messages, but Tom was there once again, Tom did a rescue and he is; "Oh my gosh, it's Candlewick Press!".And So I didn't, I, that was it. That was my end. And the rest is history . Jarrett: And what book was that? Cece: That book was "Sock Monkey goes to Hollywood."Jarrett: Oh, yes. I remember the Sock Monkey books and, wow. That's right. Wow. So what and what year was that? Cece: Oh, my gosh, that came out.Oh yeah. So the, that was the year 2000 was when I got the message from Candlewick, but it didn't come out until 2003 because I didn't have an agent. And I had to get a lawyer to help me read the contract as those contracts are... It wasn't until later that I got an agent, and God bless agents because I never wanna read another contract ever again. But it just took a long time because it was my first and I didn't have representation at the time. So that came out in 2003. Jarrett: Yeah. Cece: Yeah. Jarrett: Yeah. And because now I'm connecting all of the dots, because then... It was maybe a few years after that is when I first met you and Tom at, we were in a gallery show together and I had just thought; "That's the famous Cece Bell, she's been around. "These books have been out for years now. And I don't know if I'm allowed to talk to the famous Cece Bell who makes the Sock Monkey books." And there, you were just getting started. Cece: Yeah. Oh, I really was just getting started and I wasn't famous at all. I remember Ashley Bryan was there and Grace Lynn was there.Jarrett: Yeah. Cece: And at the time I was a huge Grace Lynn fan, still am, but I think, I still think of her as this icon. She already felt iconic that all the way back then. And I was so in awe of her and that sensation that I had, then it's still there. Anytime I see her, I just turn a jelly like; "Oh, it's Grace Lynn! Baah!"And so she was there and I remember the book that you were talking about was the the animal punk rock band. Jarrett: Yeah. Cece: Book. Yeah. Jarrett: Yeah. Punk Farm! Cece: And you already had the JJK thing going on. You were like Mr. PR and... Jarrett: No, but I was only a few years in then too, that my first book was 2001 and Punk Farm was 2005, I think.Cece: Punk Farm.Jarrett: Still trying to get my stuff out there, and learning how to be on stage. Cause I used to have incredible stage fright. I hated performing. I hated going on stage. And then that became part of the job that I have. So I'm curious and because I know for me, I had been working on Lunch Lady that whole time.But the world wasn't quite ready for kids graphic novel. So you're plugging away on these picture books. How does El Deafo thread into that? I'm assuming that was something that was knocking around your head for, so for some years, right? Cece: It, in fact it was not knocking around my head at all.And honestly I was purposefully not writing about my experience on purpose and it's much like how I was in school. I don't want anybody to know this thing about me. And I want everybody to think I'm smart. And I had the same feeling about my picture books and early reader books. I just wasn't ready to talk about it in any way, not just in books, but in any and every way.There was an event that happened in which I had this really difficult interaction with a grocery store cashier. And she made me feel like the lowest person on earth. And it was all because I couldn't understand her. And I was so upset by that interaction and the person I was most upset at with myself, because at no point during that interaction, did I ever say; "I'm deaf!" Or; "I have trouble hearing." Or; "Could you please repeat that?"Because I had so much trouble saying those things. I still had not come to grips with a lot of it. And at that point I was 40 years old. 40! And I was so mad... At everything. And I was mad at hearing people for not understanding and just frustrated and mad at me. And so I started a website and the website was called, eldeafo.com.And El Deafo really was the nickname that I called myself, as a kid, but only to myself, nobody else knew about it. And I just started writing about it. And my post were more about more directed at hearing people like; "This is what you should do if you're talking to a lip reader." That kind of thing.But then I wrote a little, my, my origin story. I wrote that up and a friend of mine who was a wonderful writer named Madeline Rosenberg. She was reading it and she said; "Oh my goodness, you have got to turn this into something. Please turn this into something, please turn it into a graphic novel." And so we have Madeline Rosenberg to thank for this.And so it was her encouragement and I had just read Raina Telgemeier's Smile, and that thing's a masterpiece. And I could see, I could tell that Raina's methods would really work for a story like this. And I was really excited about it because from the word go, I knew that they were gonna be rabbits.And I knew that the speech bubbles were going to be... The most important part of telling the story of my experience with deafness. So that's how that all came to me. And I was ready. I was ready. I felt like this book is going to be my calling card. This book is going to tell the world for me that I'm deaf.And then sure enough, after the book came out, I was finally able to talk about it. It was like, it worked. Yay. Jarrett: Yeah. Cece: And it was such relief. Jarrett: And I, and again, I could understand that journey. So earlier when I was talking about I, I was making Lunch Lady I probably should have compared it more to Hey Kiddo in that for me too.When I was first getting published and news reporters would wanna ask, they ask; "Why were you being raised by your grandparents?"" And I thought, I don't want that to be, I don't wanna be labeled as the child of an addict. I wanna be the Jarrett, who's making the books and I wanna be the Punk Farm guy or the Lunch Lady guy.And, but then there's this thing that you've lived and you're processing it and it's trauma and you're an adult, but you're still dealing with it. And then suddenly this thing that you've wanted to put inside a box your whole life, you're gonna put in a graphic memoir, like a hundreds of pages for everyone to see what was the creative process like for you?And I love that you made them rabbits. That's it's so perfect cuz of the ears, but also because you're Cece Bell, it's just so silly. Like they could have been talking hot dogs and it's still would've worked, but could you tell us a little bit about... The creative process and how that intersected with the emotional journey you had.Cece: Wow. I was, when I decided to commit to it, I was really excited about it. And I think because I didn't have any experience with graphic novels. I knew that I had to do a little bit of studying up and probably like a lot of folks who were in this business. I started with Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, which is, probably the most important book about comics I've ever seen.And I read it three times. I was just amazed by the whole thing. I read it three times. Once I, after the third time I thought to myself, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. And the process was just, I basically did a a notebook dump. I just wrote down everything I could remember, but I limited myself to the moment that I lost my hearing to fifth grade, and I just wrote all my memories down all my experiences and then tightened that up into an outline.And it was the outline and a a chapter. I drew out a chapter and that's what I sent to Susan Van Metre at Abrams Books. She was at Abrams at the time and she was Tom's editor for the Origami Yoda series. And I was really impressed with her. I had met her a couple of times and something told me she was the right person for it.That's what I sent to her, but the process was just a lot of back and forth between doing just these little sketches for each page kind of blocking out what's supposed to happen and then writing out what people are supposed to say, and then just mushing it together. And the process felt very organic compared to picture books, the picture books, I always feel like you've gotta get the text absolutely perfect. And there was a lot less of that for me, with the graphic novel, it was so much looser and more fun, I think. And that's all I can, that's all I can say. It was just, it was a really good experience. Jarrett: That's and that, that book is such a gift. I still have. The advanced reader's copy that they handed out to promote the book.I'll never, that's maybe in 50 years, I'll sell it on eBay to get me through . But I think it's only with the medium of comics, like a prose novel would not have worked to tell this story as effectively, because with your visuals, you are able to play with the word balloons and the size of the text to really help me and hearing people understand your journey and, and that obviously that's a help to us with hearing, but for, the whole generation of kids who are growing up with hearing loss and who are deaf.Have you - that - I can't even imagine what this book has meant to them. And I'm assuming you hear from readers with hearing loss and deafness could you share a few stories like that must get emotionally overwhelming at times? Cece: Sure. There have been, the response was just so positive.The kids that I've heard from who have had experiences like mine, they just get so excited to see their story and to see something that's familiar to them. It's not exactly their story maybe, but they get it. And they're really happy to have something to show their families and their friends. "This is what it's like!"And... Also just a lot of kids have had the experience of hearing their teacher in the bathroom. And it's great to have that validated. "Yeah. I've been there too. Yay." That's probably, everybody's favorite part in the book. That's my favorite part in the book. That was the chapter that I submitted to Susan that yeah. Hearing teacher. Jarrett: That's perfect. Cece: Yeah. So the kids have been great. And, but somehow the more affecting stories for me were the adults who had grown up in a very similar way that I had with the same equipment, even the phonic ear and the microphone and many of them said; "This is the first time I have ever seen anything remotely, like my story in a book."And I ended up making friends with a lot of adults with hearing loss, which wasn't something I had a lot of, I'm very much in the hearing world because my family is all hearing. And I think for so long, I thought of myself as a hearing person. I am, I'm a hearing person when I stick my hearing aids in and I'm a deaf person when they're out, but I'm both of those things all the time I'm in between all the time.And so it was just really cool to get this new group of people who completely understood and just... Those are the ones that get me. But then in terms of the kids, probably my favorite story ever was a little girl who was struggling with having to get hearing aids. And she was very afraid of it all.And so she found my book and read it, and that helped her be less afraid. And she was at the audiologist office. And at that point she was very comfortable and okay with everything she was going through. But there was a little boy at the office who was crying and she happened to have her copy of El Deafo and she gave him her copy. Ugh. And that was just that really got me so...Jarrett: Wow!Cece: It was just neat. It's neat that it's being used in a helpful way. And I never thought that I would ever create a book that would help people, my other books that are just silly and funny and goofy. Sometimes I feel guilty for those books. I'm like; "Sure, maybe they help kids read, but what good are they doing?" So it's really nice to have this one book that I know helps people, Jarrett: Yeah. Yeah. And, that's something that I struggled to... Especially when we're seeing every awful, horrific headline in the news. And there have been times where I've worried; "But what does this silly story matter?"But they do, those silly stories do matter. I under- I understand that inner struggle because you have made something that connects with readers on this whole other level. So I'm curious, I'd like to know a little bit more about this Apple TV+ limited series of El Deafo. It, my kids requested to watch it because they had read the book and what you did with the visuals in El Deafo, the book to help hearing people understand your deaf experience.The sound scape in the TV show helped me understand on a, on an entirely different level. And it, I had to say Cece, it felt like a animated special we've had for decades. It felt like a Charles Schulz, Peanuts, Charlie Brown, Snoopy, special. Like it was that level of just beauty and taking the time to tell the story.How did that come about? Cece: Wow Jarrett. You just said the magic words to me. That was what I wanted. I wanted that peanut feel that Christmas special Peanuts feel. Where it's not exactly perfect, but the imperfections or what make it interesting, there's something really unusual about that Charlie Brown, Christmas special that on paper, it shouldn't work at all. It's a mess. Even some of the story doesn't make sense and yet you stick it all together and yay. It works. But so thank you for that. That means a lot. So that television show came about a he's my friend now, but back then, he wasn't my friend.He was somebody. Greatly admired and still admired, Will McRob who is one of the co-creators of one of my favorite TV shows of all time, the Adventures of Pete and Pete, which was on Nickelodeon in the 90s, he, out of the blue sent me an email and said; "I like your book. Let's turn it into a show!"And so that was how it got started, but it took him a long time to convince me because I felt like the book was I don't know, to me, at least it felt sacred and I didn't wanna mess that up. And I knew that there were a lot of fans of the book who also felt that love for it. And I didn't wanna mess that up, but I started to think, there's not many, if any characters on TV who are like me in that we are deaf people who have chosen or because of our circumstances, we have gotten through life with hearing aids, not without, but with, and you don't see very much of that on TV and in a movie. And in fact, when there are deaf characters in movies, at least, like back in the 70s and 80s, when we grew up not only was the deaf character made fun of, but the equipment was too, the actual hearing aid was somehow part of the... Was being made fun of, and, hearing aids are not perfect and they're greatly flawed little things, but they've really helped me and the phonic ear from the book I'm in... Once again, I would not be here talking to you without that piece of equipment. I don't think maybe I would've, but I don't think so, but anyway I just started to think, this kind of needs to be this could be really good for deaf kids and hearing kids to have a show like this. So that's how it came about.And I signed on once I I was very demanding. I had to put on those big girl pants and be like; "Ra ra ra!" Which is not my usual way. But anyway I said it can't be just a series that, goes on a, goes off on its own. It needs to be based on the book. And I want it to look like the book and it can't be 3D animation.I was like; "Absolutely no 3D, has to be 2D." And my other thing was; "We have to mess with the audio. The audio has to reflect the book in some way." So those were some of my demands. Also the main character had to be played by someone, a kid who also has hearing loss, but is using adaptive equipment to help her.And in that case, we got a lovely young lady, Lexi Finigan who uses cochlear implants a little bit different from what I do. But she was just fantastic. So I was very demanding. Jarrett: I I'm so glad that you were because, so often these animated adaptations of work the author of the underlying material is the last person they wanna work with. And I think that the work suffers from that cuz so it really, you went in there with, a limited amount of things that would really like you're quote-unquote "demands". And I, and I get it cuz you have to be assertive in these situations. To say; "Here's what's really important to me." And understanding like a book is a book and a and a TV show is a TV show. Like you're telling story with anything that's animated or film. You're telling stories with visuals and sounds, and time, which is different than a book. And you all just hit it right out of the park.I, when it comes to the Emmys, I hope you win all of the awards for this piece. It's an instant classic. It's just so perfect. And you narrat I could, I didn't know that. So I put it on and I, and my wife, Gina was in the other room she came and went; "Is that Cece? Cece's voice is coming from the TV?"Cece: Yeah, that was pretty neat. At first the director who is. From Lighthouse Studios in Ireland, a woman named Gilly Fogg, who was absolutely terrific, when she first heard that I wanted to narrate it. Oh, not that I wanted to narrate it, but just the idea of a narrator. She said; "Oh no, we don't want that. That's, no thank you." But Will, and I, when we were writing the script together, we realized that if we were going to mess with the audio, that it was going to be confusing and that we needed there to be a voice ex- kind of just explaining, giving kids a few clues that no, your TV isn't broken because the narrator's voice would come on and it would be clear.And and like I think every now and then the narrator says something like, everything was quiet and I think the audience needs that. Otherwise they're gonna be, hitting their TV. "What's wrong?" She did not like that idea. The director said; "No, no narrator." And so Will said; "What if Cece narrates it?"And then she just lit up and she said; "Aha, yes, that's what we need to do." Because it did need to be my voice. You've probably heard people talking about the deaf accent, where there are certain sounds that I don't hear very well. And so my voice is a little different and that was important.People need to hear what that voice sounds like, which is why one of the reasons why we cast a deaf actress, because we need to have that specific sound. And I used to be very ashamed of that deaf accent, but not anymore. I don't really, that's just how I talk. So that is how that came to be, but I had to take acting classes, Jarrett, I am now... That's the end. And the woman - I know I am acting.And she was fantastic. I think I had about three or four sessions with her and it was almost more like therapy. I don't know she was magical and she's a lovely woman. And just, it actually really helped just, it was more about "here's how to take direction and then use that direction and go with it."And this all happened during COVID. And so I recorded all of my lines in my bedroom. They sent me all this equipment and Tom and I set it up and I was pretty much in my closet. And that it was pretty neat. It was pretty neat getting to do the whole thing from home. Jarrett: You, but, okay. But you do deserve the limo.That's gonna bring you to the studio. So I hope that we get something more so that you can have a personal assistant that you throw your phone to, and if you don't like the food, they prepared, you just throw it against the wall in a fit of rage. I guess you could do that for Tom.I guess you could like Tom, could, he would do that for you. If that's gonna make you happy, like he would totally be game for that Cece: It was frustrating that I didn't get to have some of the experiences, like I was supposed to be able to go to Ireland and hang out with the animation studio for a couple weeks.Wow. So that got canned. And I was supposed to go out to LA to to work with the audio team. That didn't work. But the funny thing is that because we had all of our meetings on zoom, it was actually better because when I'm in a meeting, oh, like around a table in real life, I miss probably 70 or 80% of what's being said, because I lose the thread.If that makes sense. I can't, I can only do, one or two people. And then I'm lost because of their lip reading. But with everybody's face right in front of me, everybody's facing me, look at me, , they're all facing me. That makes me sound like they're looking at me, we have to look at our computers, right?You have to look at our computers when we do them. And so I didn't miss anything. And... That gave me a lot more confidence to help run the show. Oh yeah. So it was actually a benefit in a weird way that we were all stuck at home Jarrett: A as well. You should run the show Cece, wow. That all of your hard work as a team made for a beautiful animated program, and there's, as I said, it so reminded me of the Charlie Brown specials, cause it also took its time. There was moments of silence. There, there were moments where it wasn't just a lot of fast cuts and my five year old son who... Has a very short tension span. Loves video games. Like it, it actually was very calming to him. We'd watch it at the end of the day, as a treat, as a family watch and he would ask for Cece, he wouldn't call it El Deafo, he'd say, could we watch Cece?And so they all connected with you on this whole other level. So we're gonna wrap things up in a bit be before we do in the chat. So what I'll give you one audience question, cuz I don't wanna keep you too much longer. What are you working on Cece? Is there anything you can tell us about? What do we have to look forward to? Cece: Oh so I am working on of all things, an alphabet book. That's crazy, but so I love music and that's something that a lot of hearing folks are surprised by that.Deaf people can love music and my hearing aids are pretty good. And I grew up with my older siblings bringing in all this great music usually from thrift stores. And we had this fantastic turntable, that we used at home. That is mine now. Thank goodness. Great speakers. And so I really love music and I especially love the visuals that went with the music, the album covers.So this is an alphabet book of fake album covers that are animals playing different genres. And and all I'm making memorabilia and writing songs and smushing it all together in this book. So part of it is hopefully it'll be fun, but it's a very personal project because as I've gotten older, I am losing more hearing.And now it's a genetic hearing loss because my father and his grandfather and father, on down the line, they all had pretty significant hearing loss. So I'm starting to lose. My ability to appreciate music, which sucks in a big way. So this is my my outpouring of love visually for music.And it's been so much fun. I'm doing all the hand lettering. I'm doing weird paintings and it's been a lot of fun so far, but a lot of work because it's so personal, I'm taking my time with it. And my editor is Susan Van Metre, the same one who is working, who worked on El Deafo with me.And I just got an extension, Jarrett. Yay! The best thing ever to happen is when you tell your editor, "I need more time" and they give it to you. So that's what I'm...Jarrett: Awesome. Cece: Very personal and I just wanted to do something that didn't have so much of a story, just fun. And there's thought of a story that the story of my own personal relationship with music, but but that's what I've been working on.Jarrett: Oh we will be patient Cece Bell! It has been very challenging, challenging times and concepts lately, cuz of the pandemic deadlines have seemed like wonderful suggestions. I know my editors won't want to hear that, but it's been, to get that art out of you also need to be in a pretty decent enough Headspace.So I'm glad to know that. Yes, you're getting more time and we are gonna get more Cece Bell and the world and we're also, we're lucky to have you in this world. We're lucky that you make art. We're lucky that Tom Angelberger supported you and took you off that track and put you on a different track that you wanted to be on.And what a beautiful thing to have anyone in this world who would love you so much to show you your true self and what an amazing story from the exotic pet packaging to N-Sync. I did not think I would be able to run a thread between Cece Bell and N-Sync in this interview, but wow. Wow.That's very cool. I will think of you whenever I see an N-Sync lunch box at a thrift store or something like that. . Cece: Oh, please. Yeah. If you ever find school supplies like a notebook and folders, I should have sent you pictures. They're they're just I know everything about Justin Timberlake.Let me tell you, I know everything about, the way he looked and his signature, we got to use all this stuff that they sent us. It was great. Jarrett: Ah I'm gonna make...Cece: I would say a lot of the same things about you. Your work has been so important and inspiring and funny and and your support of other authors and illustrators is amazing. I think I'm a little bit more self-centered honestly, you're just like "everybody else is fantastic!" And I really appreciate that. You're really good about doing that. So thank you.Jarrett: I appreciate that your kind words, but in a way, what we all do is self-centered because we're scratching that creative itch we've always had.And, we're lucky enough that we love to make books and we didn't forget who we were as kids and kids find those really funny or entertaining, or they get to see themselves reflected in that true life experience. I...Cece: Yes.Jarrett: ... Cannot pass up a chance to make a really bad pun in this moment.Cece, I'm gonna sign off by saying... Bye bye bye. It was so bad, right? That was so stupid. That was such a bad joke. Ain't no bad joke. Ain't no lie. I say it. It might sound crazy, but it ain't no lie. Cece I appreciate you. And thanks for taking the time to chat with us today. Cece: Absolutely. Thank you, Jarrett.

In episode 53 of o11ycast, Charity and Jess speak with Jean Yang of Akita Software about legacy software, API-driven observability, tips for improving team efficiency, and insights on how observability can inform programming languages.

In episode 53 of o11ycast, Charity and Jess speak with Jean Yang of Akita Software about legacy software, API-driven observability, tips for improving team efficiency, and insights on how observability can inform programming languages.

Episode 58 is out. A long journey, and today with us, we have Phillip Carter. Phillip brings a heuristic from his repository: “Focusing on developer experience can make your products more powerful and your teams more empowered”. We deep dive into what is developer experience and how some companies don't get it right. For example, developer experience is different from the software development lifecycle. He also gives excellent advice on how to start developer experience initiatives within the company and leverage the economics of scale. Phillip recommends: The case for developer experience by Jean Yang ( https://future.a16z.com/the-case-for-developer-experience/) Building for 99% developers by Jean Yang (https://future.a16z.com/software-development-building-for-99-developers/ ) Gitpod (https://www.gitpod.io/) GitHub Codespaces (https://github.com/features/codespaces) Sourcegraph (https://about.sourcegraph.com/) Phillip Carter (@_cartermp) is a Product Manager at Honeycomb, focusing on Developer Experience.

In this episode  we speak with Jean Yang, CEO of Akita Software, an API observability startup, which she founded after leaving her role in academia as a computer science professor. We discussed the software heterogeneity problem, why it isn't better to rewrite in rust and how the language wars have actually been won. We also explore how the big fight today is about infrastructure and why microservices are the solution to the ever-growing complexity of software.About Jean YangJean Yang is the founder and CEO of Akita Software, a developer tools company that is bringing structure to observability. Previously, Jean was a professor of Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon University. Jean has a PhD from MIT, holds software tools patents from work at Microsoft Research and Facebook, and was selected as one of the MIT Technology Review's 35 Innovators Under 35 in 2016.Other things mentioned:ZenossTaming Go's Memory Usage, or How We Avoided Rewriting Our Client in RustSplunkDatadogPrometheusGrafanaThe Everything store ZapierClayZoom Bachelor - https://www.zoombachelor.com/Zoom bacheloretteVim#PLTalkLet us know what you think on Twitter:https://twitter.com/consoledotdevhttps://twitter.com/davidmyttonhttps://twitter.com/jeanqasaurOr by email: hello@console.devAbout ConsoleConsole is the place developers go to find the best tools. Our weekly newsletter picks out the most interesting tools and new releases. We keep track of everything - dev tools, devops, cloud, and APIs - so you don't have to. Sign up for free at: https://console.dev.Recorded: 2021-11-19

今天CC邀請到台灣第一批國際哺乳顧問之一的楊醫師，情人節這天請她跟我們分享她為什麼成為哺乳顧問，還有復健科對哺乳媽媽，能夠提供甚麼幫助呢?

This episode features Jean Yang, President of Tufts Health Public Plans. Here, she discusses her organization's dedication to taking care of low income patients, her current top priorities, and more.

Robby speaks with Jean Yang, Found and CEO of Akita Software. In this episode, Jean discusses why software needs to be more honest with itself, recruitment tactics at small startups, and why we should be careful before doing what the big organizations are doing, what developer influences advocate versus what real developers do day-to-day.Helpful LinksJean's TwitterJean's LinkedInAkita SoftwareAkita on TwitterBook Recommendation: Sick in the Head by Judd ApatowSubscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.

This episode features Jean Yang, President of Tufts Health Public Plans. Here, she discusses her organization's dedication to taking care of low income patients, her current top priorities, and more.

As software has become more important, so the demand for developers has increased. Whether you call yourself an engineer, a programmer, developer, hacker or coder, more and more organizations are building skilled technology teams to change how they achieve their mission.Developers make big decisions, yet they face an onslaught of sales and marketing combined with an unrelenting velocity of releases to keep up with.From open source, cloud, large public company or small startup, there has never been more choice for developers.That's why we started Console, a free weekly email digest of the best tools and beta releases for developers. Every Thursday we highlight two interesting developer tools, saying what we like and what we don't like.And now we're launching a podcast.We'll be kicking off with our first few episodes, each no more than 15 minutes, discussing the tools featured in the Console newsletter with David Mytton (Co-founder of Console) and Jean Yang, CEO of Akita Software. Jean earned her PhD in software correctness and programming language design from MIT and then became a professor in computer science at Carnegie Mellon University before she started Akita to build the future of API observability.So join Jean and David for our first episode, on 8th July 2021. And in the meantime, subscribe to the Console newsletter.Follow us on Twitter:https://twitter.com/jeanqasaurhttps://twitter.com/davidmyttonhttps://twitter.com/consoledotdev

An application programming interface, API for short, is the connector between 2 applications. For example, a user interface that needs user data will call an endpoint, like a special URL, with request parameters and receive the data back if the request is valid. Modern applications rely on APIs to send data back and forth to The post Akita: Application Programming Interfaces with Jean Yang appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

An application programming interface, API for short, is the connector between 2 applications. For example, a user interface that needs user data will call an endpoint, like a special URL, with request parameters and receive the data back if the request is valid. Modern applications rely on APIs to send data back and forth to The post Akita: Application Programming Interfaces with Jean Yang appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

An application programming interface, API for short, is the connector between 2 applications. For example, a user interface that needs user data will call an endpoint, like a special URL, with request parameters and receive the data back if the request is valid. Modern applications rely on APIs to send data back and forth to

An application programming interface, API for short, is the connector between 2 applications. For example, a user interface that needs user data will call an endpoint, like a special URL, with request parameters and receive the data back if the request is valid. Modern applications rely on APIs to send data back and forth to The post Akita: Application Programming Interfaces with Jean Yang appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Everyone from tech companies to industry influencers is telling lawyers what they need from AI. And, if there’s one thing about lawyers, they don’t generally like being told what they like. The dynamic should be flipped. So, let’s take a step back and ask this question: Are legal and contract AI technologies giving lawyers what they truly need? What do lawyers think? In this episode, we go straight to the source, interviewing a lawyer about what she expects from AI. Jean Yang is the VP of Onit’s AI Center of Excellence, a lawyer and an AI expert. We talk to her about her experience as a lawyer and her use of technology when practicing law. She’ll also share why Onit’s newly released ReviewAI Smart Checklists improves contract review consistency, lowers contract risks and better supports the business. Show links: Jean Yang on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-yang-10936239/ ReviewAI Smart Checklists recorded demonstration – [LINK PENDING] ReviewAI information - https://www.onit.com/products/onit-reviewai/ Webinar replay - The Future of Contracting: CLM + AI Transformation at Lenovo - https://www.onit.com/resources/onit-webinar-the-future-of-contracting-clm-ai-transformation-at-lenovo/   Thanks for listening!

Jean Yang has a better way to catch breaking changes. She's been considering software verification, programming language design, type-systems, and type-safety for many years. She understands how to automatically enforce information flow policies and has now turned her eye towards founding Akita Software. They promise to make your APIs and Services easier to understand, map, manage, and maintain.https://www.akitasoftware.com/

In this episode, Dr. Jean Yang--founder and CEO of Akita Software--joins Mike and Matt to discuss how APIs can be used to understand, visualize, and manage complex software systems. She gives details on her computer science background, and how that has informed her work in enterprise software engineering.

Join host Brian Dawson for the 87th episode of DevOps Radio where he sits down with solopreneur and founder of Akita Software, Jean Yang. 

Video of this podcast can be found on our Youtube channelJean Yang: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-yang-96575030/Akita Software: https://www.akitasoftware.com/Galois, Inc.: https://galois.com/Joey Dodds: https://galois.com/team/joey-dodds/Shpat Morina:  https://galois.com/team/shpat-morina/Contact us: marketing@galois.com

Video of this podcast can be found on our Youtube channel. Jean Yang: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jean-yang-96575030/Akita Software: https://www.akitasoftware.com/Galois, Inc.: https://galois.com/Joey Dodds: https://galois.com/team/joey-dodds/Shpat Morina:  https://galois.com/team/shpat-morina/Contact us: marketing@galois.com

Support these videos: http://pgbovine.net/support.htmhttp://pgbovine.net/PG-Podcast-52-Jean-Yang-returns.htm- [Akita Software](https://www.akitasoftware.com/) (Jean's company)- [PG Podcast - Episode 19 - Jean Yang on time and serendipity management](http://pgbovine.net/PG-Podcast-19-Jean-Yang.htm)- [Cal Newport](https://www.calnewport.com/)- [Free Solo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Solo)- [SMBC unsolicited advice comic](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-09-01)- [PG Vlog #250 - Jean Yang's advice for people in their 20s: "commit to something and commit hard"](http://pgbovine.net/PG-Vlog-250-commit.htm)Recorded: 2020-01-18

// We faced some audio problems: the audio quality decreases at around 0:40 but gets back to normal at 2:15. Sorry! // Benedikt got fed up surfing the web again. He stumbled upon an article in The Telegraph titled "GDPR 'means hackers can access all your data online'". As he hates paying for online journalism (the article was behind a paywall) he located its original source: NewStatesman America's piece called "GDPR has made it easier to access our own data - and for hackers to do so, too". And all of this has been set into motion by a tweet of Assistant Professor of Computer Science, Jean Yang. Eddie followed the developments of the last two weeks in the United States concerning Justice Brett Kavanaugh. Not only did Eddie get deep into the discussion surrounding Brett Kavenaugh's alleged sexual assault, but also the actual legal and human skills that the Justice possesses. Will this affect the Supreme Court in the future? Listen to Eddie and Benedikt ranting about these two topics to find out what's really going on. Simply Untrue is a podcast that discusses common misconceptions in law. Every other week our cast of law enthusiasts presents you with what they have recently encountered on the web or in the media. Lively discussions fed by frustration and lawyness guaranteed!

Support these videos: http://pgbovine.net/support.htmhttp://pgbovine.net/PG-Vlog-131-choosing-PhD-program.htmGreat relevant advice from others:- [Some notes on picking grad schools/advisors](http://jxyzabc.blogspot.com/2009/02/some-notes-on-picking-grad.html) by Prof. Jean Yang- [CS Grad School Part 5: School Visits](http://jxyzabc.blogspot.com/2008/08/cs-grad-school-part-5-school-visits.html) by Prof. Jean Yang- [What The Bachelor Teaches Us About Choosing a PhD Advisor](http://jxyzabc.blogspot.com/2016/03/what-bachelor-teaches-us-about-choosing.html) by Profs. Claire Le Goues and Jean Yang- [Tweet of wisdom](https://twitter.com/clegoues/status/976941714500923394) by Prof. Claire Le Goues- [How to pick a grad school for a PhD in Computer Science](https://medium.com/@vijayc/how-to-pick-a-grad-school-for-a-phd-in-computer-science-a5ce7dceb246) by Prof. Vijay Chidambaram- [On choosing to do a PhD](http://www.veronikach.com/phd-advice/on-choosing-to-do-phd/) by Prof. Veronika Cheplygina- [PhD Grind part 0.8 of N: picking a school](http://talesnideas.blogspot.com/2015/03/phd-grind-part-08-of-n-picking-school.html) by Dr. Dan Tasse- [PhDs -- hmmm.](https://medium.com/@sguthals/phds-hmmm-e4df11da2749) by Dr. Sarah Guthals- [You think you want to do a PhD… Where to start?](https://rosehendricks.com/2017/10/09/you-think-you-want-to-do-a-phd-where-to-start/) by Dr. Rose HendricksRecorded: 2018-03-22

Security vulnerabilities are an important concern in systems. When we specify that we want certain information hidden, for example our phone number or our date of birth, we expect the system to hide the information. However, this doesn’t always happen due to human error in the code because programmers have to write checks and filters The post Security Language with Jean Yang appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Security vulnerabilities are an important concern in systems. When we specify that we want certain information hidden for example our phone number or our date of birth, we expect the system to hide the information. However, this doesn't always happen due to human error in the code because programmers have to write checks and filters across the program. In this episode Jean Yang, Assistant professor at the Computer Science Department in Carnegie Mellon, presents Jeeves, a language that allows programmers to specify security policies more intuitively making it harder to leak information that is meant to be protected. Jean explained how Jeeves was implemented and how it can be used. We also talked about what it takes to bring research concepts from academia to the industry. Jean was also named one of the 35 innovators under 35 by MIT Technology Review.

Support these videos: http://pgbovine.net/support.htmhttp://pgbovine.net/PG-Podcast-19-Jean-Yang.htmRecorded: 2016-12-11