KPFA - APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight's show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children's book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. Title:  We Are All Connected Show Transcripts Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:01:17] Welcome to Apex Express. Tonight's show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children's book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. First, we want to start by wishing everyone a happy Juneteenth, Juneteenth commemorates, an end to slavery and the emancipation of Black Americans after the Civil War. In 1865, 2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, enslaved people in Galveston, Texas finally learned of their freedom. Juneteenth marks the day the last enslaved people learned of their freedom. Though outright slavery became illegal, the systematic oppression of African Americans continues to this day. We see that show up in almost every aspect of American culture, from the high rate of infant mortality to the over punishing of Black children in schools, to police brutality, to incarceration. We must continue to recognize the importance of championing Black lives and lifting up Black voices. We are all connected. June 19th is also an important day in Asian American history. In 1982 in Detroit, Vincent Chin was at a bar celebrating his bachelor party prior to his wedding the next day. Ronald Ebens, a white auto worker, and his stepson Michael Nitz taunted Vincent with racial epithets. They thought he was Japanese and were angry about the Japanese rise in the auto industry. When Vincent left the bar later, the two men attacked and killed Vincent with a baseball bat. He was 27 years old. Ronald Ebens never did time for this murder. Ronald Ebens is 85 years old now. Ebens not only skirted prosecution, he has used bankruptcy and homesteading laws in Nevada to avoid a wrongful death civil suit settlement. Ordered by the court in 1987 to pay $1.5 million to Chin's family, the Chin estate has received nothing. Lily Chin, Vincent's mom could have stayed silent about the racist attack on her son. Instead she spoke out. She took a courageous stance to highlight this most painful moment in her life. In doing so, she helped ignite a new generation of Asian American activists working for civil rights and social justice. We find ourselves in a new wave of activism as our communities band together to work against the injustices of the current regime. And what does this have to do with children's books? It is all connected. We highlight children's books by Asian and Asian American authors because we want our next generation of children to know and appreciate their own heritage. We want them to proudly represent who they are so that they can work in solidarity with other peoples. Our struggle is interwoven. As Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is a story not only of the past, but of the future.” Thank you for joining us on apex express. Enjoy the show.   Miko Lee: [00:04:24] First off. Let's take a listen to one of Byron Au Young's compositions called “Know Your Rights” This is part of the trilogy of the Activist Songbook. This multi-lingual rap, give steps to know what to do when ICE officers come to your door.    MUSIC   That was “Know Your Rights” performed by Jason Chu with lyrics by Aaron Jeffries and composed by Byron Au Yong Welcome, Chi Thai to Apex Express.    Chi Thai: [00:07:13] Hello. I'm really happy to be joining you, Miko.  Miko Lee: [00:07:16] I'm really happy to meet you and learn about you as an artist, as a filmmaker, as a children's book author. And I wanna first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Chi Thai: [00:07:30] Ooh, what a great question. You know what? I love being asked stuff that hasn't been asked kind of before. I mean, there's a kinda really kinda natural answer to that, which is, you know, family are my people. Of course. 100%. And certainly, you know, the reason why I'm talking to you today, you know, in regard to the, to the book, you know, it's about my family's journey. But I found, and I don't know if this is. Somewhat to do with, you know, being a child of two cultures and you know, being a child of the diaspora that you really have to kind of find your own family too. 'cause I suppose I grew up feeling, I didn't quite relate to maybe my parents in a way that, you know, you normally would if you weren't part of the diaspora. And I felt estranged from my birth country and I didn't really feel like British either a lot of the time. So in terms of like, who are my people? I've gathered those people as I've kind of grown up and it's, it's a kind of strange feeling too. I feel like it's taken me a really long to grow up and to figure out who I am. And I suppose that's why, you know, the people that I have a really, a lot of people that have come, kinda later in my life, I actually have no friends in my childhood as an example of that. I've had to kind of find these people as I've grown up, but it's taken me a long time to grow up because growing up in the UK there wasn't any literature to read about what it was like to be Asian. And British, to be a refugee and things like that. So it just took me longer and I then, as a result, it just took me longer to find my tribe. but I have it now, but it's still work in progress. That was a very convoluted answer. I'm very sorry Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:09:15] No, it wasn't. No worries. It's fine. And what legacy do you carry with you?   Chi Thai: [00:09:19] Kind of an extension to that answer, I think when you're an artist, practicing your voice, figuring out your voice, can take a while. And I think I've only really started maybe the last like five to 10 years at the most really figured out what I want my legacy to be. The things I wanna talk about are really about s tories from the diaspora, certainly, and about community and healing. These are the things I think that are really important to me, especially when we talk about maybe coming from struggle. I don't feel it's enough to be an artist today and just talk about struggle. I want to talk about justice as well. And justice really is about healing, you know?    Miko Lee: [00:10:00] Oh, that's beautiful. Can you talk a little bit more about that healing and what that means to you and how that shows up in your work?    Chi Thai: [00:10:07] A couple years ago, no, not even that long ago, I produced a, a feature film. This is probably the best example for it, but I produced a feature film called Raging Grace, which we called it Horror with a small H and it. Basically took the story of what it was like to be, undocumented Filipina in the uk who was also a mother. And I think if that film had been made 10 years ago, it would just shown how hard her life was, and unrelentingly. So, and I think the reason why Raising Grace is so special is it goes beyond the trauma, it takes us to a place of justice, of being able to speak out for someone who has felt invisible, to be visible for someone who's not. Had a voice, to have a voice and to begin that kind of healing process of sticking up for herself, making a change transforming herself from maybe the good immigrant to the bad immigrant and things like that. I think that's a really great example and I think I read a really wonderful thing. It might have been in a Guardian article where we, so a lot of my work is around, inclusion representation of like diasporic stories. And I think when you have, when you exist in the poverty of like representation, I. the solution to that is plentitude. I think that Viet Thanh Nguyen probably said that, so I don't wanna take credit for it. He comes up with so many wonderful things, and that's a wonderful thing to be able to move from poverty, like to plentitude and that be the solution, is kinda really wonderful. So I enjoy being really prolific. I enjoy supporting artists to be able to do their work. So as a community, we can also be prolific and I wanna support, narratives that. Take us beyond a place of struggle and trauma to a place of like healing and justice and so forth.    Miko Lee: [00:11:57] Your work crosses so many genres. You were just mentioning how that film was kind of a horror film and, and then you've done these kind of dreamy animation pieces and then now this children's book. Do you select the genre and the format and the medium, or does it select you?   Chi Thai: [00:12:16] Oh, I think the story chooses it. I like 100% believe that. I just actually was thinking about this 'cause I was doing an interview on something else, people, often ask about the creative process and I, can only speak for my own. But usually when I get an idea for a story, the general shape of it comes almost like really well formed. There's a sense of a lready kinda what genre it'll be. There's a sense of the character, there's a sense of the journey and all these things. I felt the same about, writing The Endless Sea I knew it would be from the voice of a child. This probably sounds like my creative process is terrible, but it was just. This is how it was going to be. That kind of part was writing itself, or at least I feel that it'd been writing itself like that in my subconscious for many, many years before it kind of surfacing and writing. Like the writing bit is just the tip of the iceberg at the end of the day. there wasn't like a kind of decision about that. the story in that sense was quite intact. So I often feel like the story is demanding something about kind genre and for, for Raging Grace 'cause I've talked about this a lot, not just in listen to me, but other things. But we always said like if you are an an undocumented person, every breath you take is taken in a hostile environment. It's so natural for it to be a horror. So there's not a sense that you kinda decide that it's like that is the very reality of someone who's going, you know, that's their lived experience. And if you're going to represent that truthfully, it will be through the prism of horror. And I suppose that's how I think about genre. the story is kind of telling you what it needs to tell its emotional truth. and I felt that way, with The Endless Sea same thing with the Raging Grace, with Lullaby. And I think you talked about The Promise, I suppose I, with The Promise, which is an adaptation I had less choice about that because that was a book and it was a adapted into an animation. I've heard Nicola, who's the author of the book, talk about that and she talks about like the story coming to her in a dream and tiptoeing down her arm coming onto the page, she like describes it really beautifully. so maybe our processes are the same. It feels that way. there's not long deliberations. I mean, that's not to say the writing process isn't difficult. It is. But that, I've never found the, [genre] the difficulty or the bit that's required a lot of, I don't know soul searching with it.    Miko Lee: [00:14:28] So with that being said, how did Endless Sea your latest children's book? How did that tiptoe into your imagination?    Chi Thai: [00:14:36] This is a strange one because this is probably the closest thing to like, almost autobiographical work. What I can say is like, it's the true story o f how I and my family, which would've been at the time my mom and dad, my older sister, me, how we fled Vietnam after the fall of an Saigon. we actually left quite late we left in 1979 w hen things were tr were getting truly, truly, truly, quite terrible. And, this was very much a last resort. I think my parents would try to make things work, but realized that they couldn't. This journey that we took on these, boats that were made badly, made poorly, that many of which sank has become almost like the genesis story of our family. It's like it's a big, it has a long shadow, right? Ever since you know I, it is like the first story that I can remember. It's one of the few stories my mom would tell me again and again when we, when they see their old friends, it's something they talk about. So it's something that has happened to it to us, but it's such a big thing that it's just, echoed In my life growing up, as I've you know, got older and older, and the wonderful thing about having a story kinda live with you eventually it's in your blood and in your bones, but also if it's a thing that's kinda shared with you again and again, you actually build up this, there's something about the repetition of it, and then every time you hear it told from an uncle or a family friend or from your mom, a new little detail is embroidered that someone adds. So I've kinda lived with this story for 40 plus years and I've been collecting all these little things about it all this time and all that time it was, I think, kind of just writing itself, you know? You know, it was doing all that work before I actually put like pen to paper. Um, yeah.    Miko Lee: [00:16:31] Was there a catalyst or something that made you actually put the pen to paper?   Chi Thai: [00:16:36] That's really interesting. You know, I probably don't mind it is probably something really banal like. I think I probably wrote it during Covid and I had more time. Um, I think there are probably be some bigger forces in place. And you know what, I can tell you what it is actually if I'm, I'm forcing myself to think and examine a bit closer so when this is totally true. So I remember hearing the news about Viet Thanh Nguyen win winning the Pulitzer for The Sympathizer. And it made such a mark on me and I kind of felt, wow, someone from our community has achieved this incredible thing. And I thought, why? Why now? Like, and I was like, well, you know what? It's probably taken our community certain amount of time to come of age, to develop not just the abilities to write, to create, to make art, but also to have possibly the relationships or networks in place to be able to then make the art and get it out into the world. And I kind of felt when he was able to do that and came of age, I kind of felt there was going to be like other people from the kind of diasporic Vietnamese community that would also start to flourish. And that made me feel really good. About probably being a bit older than the average kind of artist, like making their, kinda like their pieces and everything and saying, you know what? My time can be now. It's okay. And I just find it just really inspiring that, you know our community was kind of growing, growing up, coming of age and being able to do these, these things And I kind of felt like it had given me the permission, I suppose the, the confidence to go, “Oh this story that I've been carrying my whole life, which I don't really see a version of out there I can write that and now I can write it and I'm the right person to write it.” And I had just done The Promise so I had a relationship with Walker. I was like, I have a, you know, a relationship with the publisher. I feel my writing is matured. Like I can do this. And so it was like a culmination and, you know, convergence of those things. And, but I do remember having that thought thinking, “This is a good time to be alive in our community 'cause we're actually able to make our art and get it out there now.” I, I felt it was like a real watershed moment really.   Miko Lee: [00:19:11] What made you decide to do it in this format as a Little Kid's Children's Illustrated book? We were talking earlier about how to, to me, this is the first more realistic version of a boat people experience in a very little kid's voice. What made you decide to do it in this style?    Chi Thai: [00:19:33] So interesting. At the same time, I was writing The Endless Sea. I was writing also the script for a short film, which is called Lullaby, which is takes an incident that happened on my boat but expresses it as a film, as a little kinda horror kinda drama, but a kid cannot watch that. It's like too terrifying. Um, and I wrote, you know, The Endless Sea at the same time. And again, I can't, it's really hard for me to articulate. I just knew it was gonna be a kid's book, like, and I knew it'd be written from the voice of a kid, and I didn't actually, can I say I didn't even ascribe a particular kind of value to that. It wasn't until I had started conversations with the publisher they're like, you know, we see like there's a really high, like this is really great that it's written in the voice of the kid. It somehow gives it something else. Something more is something kind of special. I didn't set out to like, overthink, like what was the most effective way to tell this story? I, I think I just told the story as honestly as I could, you know, with the words that I felt that, you know, I had in me to de, you know, to describe it. In the most authentic way to, to me. And like I say, at the same time, I knew, like I knew that was a kid's book. There was another part of that I wanted to express that was really important to me and that was survivor's guilt. But that I felt was like, that was a horror, so that was really not gonna be suitable for kids. So I was definitely thinking about lots of things to do with the same subject of the same time, but they were definitely being expressed in different ways. And again, Lullaby came to me very kind of quickly, almost fully formed. And I knew, you know, it would be a ghost story. I knew it would be the story of a mother and things like that. And I often maybe, you know, I should, I, I should interrogate more, but I kinda, I take these kinda. These ideas, which are quite well shaped and, and then I just like lean into them more and more and more. But they, the way they arrive it, I've kinda, I, I can see a lot of what is already about to unfold.   Miko Lee: [00:21:43] And do you still dream about that experience of being on the boat as a kid?    Chi Thai: [00:21:52] It's, it's a really difficult thing to explain because you know that that happened now so long ago, and I've probably heard the story thousands of times. I've watched all the terrible Hollywood movies, I've seen all the news clippings, I've watched all the archive. I've listened to, you know, people talk, and I have my own memories and I look at photographs and I have memories of looking at photographs. I feel like, you know, my memory is really unreliable, but what it is instead is it's this, this kind of, kind of tapestry of, you know, of the story of memories, of, you know, images as I grow up of hearing the story, like all coming together. One of the things I did when I wrote, I wrote The Endless Sea, is I then went back to my mom and I did a recorded interview with her 'cause I was really worried about how unreliable my memory might be. And I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions and I said, and I, it was like, you know, in the way I would've just like listened to the story quite passively before this time I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions about details and all sorts of things. 'cause I really wanted to be able to represent things, you know, as factually as I could. And that was kinda one of my kinda kind of fact checking kinda exercises I did 'cause I was, I was much quite worried about how unreliable my memory was about it all. And you know, what is, what is a memory of a memory of memory, like, you know, especially when it comes to thinking about that time on the boat and the feelings I had. Yeah. So, you know,    Miko Lee: [00:23:34] and you were so young also to    Chi Thai: [00:23:37] Totally 100%. And sometimes, I don't know, you know, is it a memory of a memory? Is it a dream of a dream?   Miko Lee: [00:23:44] Mm-hmm.    Chi Thai: [00:23:44] Or just some, yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:23:46] Was there anything that your mom said that surprised you?    Chi Thai: [00:23:50] Yeah. Um, she didn't realize how bad it was gonna be and she was like, “God, if it, I'd known how terrifying it was I dunno if I, we could have done it.” I think there's a certain amount of naivety involved and I suppose that surprised me. You know? 'cause we know already now how bad it was. Um, so things like that surprised me.    Miko Lee: [00:24:15] and your mom, the dedication of the book is to your mom. What does she think when she first read it?    Chi Thai: [00:24:22] I've got a funny story. My parents, you know, they, we left, they were in their early twenties and I think it was, you know, the escape was hard for them, but settling in new country was really hard for them. That's. That's been kind of their struggle. They had to work so hard, so many hours to kind of, you know, give us a great life. And, I think a lot of that meant they weren't people that could go out, enjoy, enjoy movies, look at art, read lots of literature and things like that. They're very, very simple, very working class. Simple life or working class kinda life. Very much all about, uh, the work. Um, and I remember when I had a, the publisher had made like a mockup of the book and I gave it to my mum to read 'cause I wanted her to be happy about it too, and she's probably been my toughest critic. I think everything I've done, she hasn't really liked, to be honest. Um, and when I gave her the mockup to read. She went, “Yeah,” but she said it in such a way I knew what she meant was Yeah, that's right. You know, that's the truth. That's the, you know, the book isn't the testimony, but it felt like she was saying yeah. It was like the simple kind of approval. It wasn't like a lot    Miko Lee: [00:25:50] That is the most Asian mom's approval ever.    Chi Thai: [00:25:54] It's so funny, like people say to me, oh Chi, it's such a beautiful book. Oh, the writing so lit, like lyrical. It's stripped back, it's elegant. Like, you know, Viet Thanh Nguyen , like God bless his like consults, gave me a comment to put in the book, said these wonderful things, and my mom goes, “yeah.”. You know, it made me laugh at the time, but I knew what it meant. And I also was old enough, I was mature enough, you know, God, if she'd given me that, if I'd been 20 written that I might have cried and my heart might have broken. Right. But I, I knew I had, I've so much compassion, you know, for my parents. Mm-hmm. And people like my parents, what they've been through and, you know, but    Miko Lee: [00:26:38] That was incredibly high praise for her.    Chi Thai: [00:26:40] It was, I couldn't have asked more.   Miko Lee: [00:26:47] Oh, I totally get that. I think that's such an Asian thing. That is so funny.    Chi Thai: [00:26:53] It is, it is. I didn't feel bad. I, I remember showing her Lullaby, um, and she didn't like it at all.    Miko Lee: [00:27:02] What did she say? What is her not like voice? What did she say to that?    Chi Thai: [00:27:05] Oh, she. Well, firstly, she, well, the, the film is almost silent because basically it tells a story. It's inspired by a mother that was on our boat who lost her baby on the border crossing, and I was very much ever, for as long as I knew about this woman's story, I was like, I was very much haunted by it, and I was haunted by, you know, the fact that that's how she felt and her guilt. Over losing her baby on this journey. And I knew, I knew I wanted to tell her story. 'cause one of the things I feel very strongly about is when you are on the losing side. So I'm from South Vietnam, like that's not the, you know, that's not the story that's told, the story is told of who triumphs at the end of the day. And I was just like all those people that we lost at sea, this mother, her baby. The stories kind of aren't told. So I kind of felt really strongly that this was somehow a very creative way to put down like a, an historical record like this happened. And actually I found out after making the film that five babies were lost in our boat, not just one.   Miko Lee: [00:28:24] Wow. So what did she say, your mom say?   Chi Thai: [00:28:28] Yes. So I made this film, which was for the most part, a silent film. This is a woman that's shut down. She barely speaks anymore. She is living with the guilt ever. You know, when she was on the boat before her baby died, she sang a lullaby, and ever since then, she hasn't been able to speak again. And then we find out that she has been haunted by the ghost of her child that she lost. And then a bit too, you know, to kind of free herself from that. She, she actually sings, you know, the, the film culminates in her singing the Luby one last time. S saying Goodbye finally being able to move beyond her Gild and I Griffin, saying goodbye and hoping she's able to, you know, progress. So I made a film about that was largely silence except for this lullaby, and my mum watched it. She went, next time you make a film, you know you need more words. I was just like, oh, I think my heart probably did crumple off a bit a bit at that point.    Miko Lee: [00:29:30] Aw.    Chi Thai: [00:29:31] You know? Um, but yeah. But yeah, it's okay. It's okay because you know what? My mom doesn't get to see stuff like that very often. So sometimes she doesn't have the wider, and this is why, I mean, like, the life that she's had, you know, hasn't been one where she's been able to surround herself with, oh, I'm so lucky. You know, my life has been so different, but it's been different. Different because of, you know what she's, what she's done for us, so it's okay. I can take it on the chin when she says my film doesn't have enough dialogue in it.    Miko Lee: [00:30:04] I love that. For you, have you had conversations with your mom about your life as an artist, and what are her thoughts on that?   Chi Thai: [00:30:16] Well say. So I, so my mom, I don't really like, you know, she's probably not that into it. I'll be honest about being an artist. I can understand why she wants you to have a good life. And I would say for the most part, being an artist is, is a, is a tough life because it's hard to make, you know, the, the pennies work, right?   Miko Lee: [00:30:44] She wants stability for you, right?    Chi Thai: [00:30:45] Yeah, exactly. But she's made a peace with it. And basically what happened, I think all the best story is gonna be about my mom, right? Is that she basically, I, I, um, I have a partner, we've been together for 15 years. Um, he's a really nice guy and he has a reliable job and we have two kids together and i,    Miko Lee: [00:31:08] So that makes it okay.   Chi Thai: [00:31:10] So yeah, this is what I was saying. So she said to me like. It doesn't really matter what you do now. 'cause she, you are already peaked. You're somebody's wife. We're not married. But she told everyone in Vietnam we were married 'cause she couldn't cope with this not being like having kids out of wedlock. In her head. She's rewritten that we are married. Right. She's like, you are married, you're somebody's wife and you mother, it doesn't get better than that. So if you are an artist or if you're a filmmaker, whatever, it doesn't matter. 'cause nothing can be better than that. Right. So she's accepted on the basis that I've already fulfilled, kind of my promise.   Miko Lee: [00:31:46] Wow. Interesting.    Chi Thai: [00:31:50] And she means that in the nicest possible way.    Miko Lee: [00:31:52] Yeah.    Chi Thai: [00:31:52] That she feels like you have a home, you have stability, you have someone who loves you, you know, you have a, a purpose in life, but really her value, you know, the way, I think, the way she measures my value is like, that's how she looks at it. The, the art is something else.    Miko Lee: [00:32:10] Well, I really appreciate you sharing your art with us in the world and your various, um, genres and styles. And I'm wondering how our audience can find out more about your work. Clearly we'll put links to where people can buy the book and let's see, but how do they find out more about your films?   Chi Thai: [00:32:28] Um, so that like, because it is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War in 2025. Actually the very anniversary of that is the tomorrow, the 30th, April, right? Um, you can watch Lullaby on Altar, which is a YouTube channel. Um, and I can give you the link for it. Rating Grace is on Paramount Plus if you want to, if you've got Paramount Plus, but you can also buy it from all the usual kind of places too. Um, and you know, and we'll see us from all great book stockists, I imagine in, in the us.   Miko Lee: [00:33:07] Thank you so much. Um, I'd love to get, I'd love for you to send me the link so I could put 'em in the show notes. I really appreciate chatting with you today. Um, is there anything else you'd like to share?    Chi Thai: [00:33:19] Um, no, I think, I think that's good. Your, your questions are so good. Mika, I'm already like, kinda like processing them all. Uh, yes.    Miko Lee: [00:33:30] Well, it was a delight to chat with you and to learn more about your artistic vision, and my wishes are that you continue to grow and feel blessed no matter what your mama says, because deep down, she's still proud of you. Even if she doesn't say it out loud.    Chi Thai: [00:33:47] I believe it. I totally believe it.    Miko Lee: [00:33:50] Yay. Thank you so much for spending time with us on Apex Express.Next up, listen to stay, go from dark heart, a concert narrative by singer and songwriter Golda Sargento.   MUSIC   That was the voice of Golda Sargento from the new Filipino futurism punk rock sci-fi dark heart. Welcome, Livia Blackburne Children's book, author of Nainai's Mountain. Welcome to Apex Express.    Livia Blackburne: [00:38:56] Thank you so much for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:38:58] I wanna start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:05] I am Chinese American, and so I carry the stories of my grandparents who fled China to Taiwan, fled that war. And I also carry the stories of my parents and myself who immigrated. To America, and I am, I grew up in New Mexico, so I have fond memories of green chili and new Mexican food. I went to college, Harvard and MIT on the east coast. So I've got a bit of that kind of ivory tower. And now I'm in LA and, you know, my people are, my family and my community, the writing community here. So I, I'm a big mix. Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:47] I mentioned a bit of my grandparents and my parents. What they went through in the war in China, and then my parents and me coming here. the experience of being here in two worlds, coming from Taiwan having that cultural background and also, growing up in the United States. The culture I've been surrounded with here as well.    Miko Lee: [00:40:06] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell us about your new illustrated children's book? Nainai's Mountain. What inspired this work?    Livia Blackburne: [00:40:14] The story of this book actually started with another book that is coming out in a couple years that actually I can't share too much about. My grandparents fled the war in China and then my. Parents grew up in Taiwan and I wanted to preserve that family story. My parents are getting older. So I started doing oral interviews with my parents about their childhood, what it was like, growing up. I wouldn't say they weren't refugees in Taiwan. It's a very complicated political situation, but they were transplants to Taiwan, and what it was like growing up there, their daily life. What kind of things they did when they were a child, their pastimes, I wanted to preserve their stories and I got a lot of great material., A lot of that is going into a novel that I'm currently working on. But also as I worked on it, there were so many great details that I thought would be really good in a picture book as well. Also, I'm a mother now. I have an 8-year-old daughter, and she is half Caucasian, half Asian. She has never gone to Taiwan before and I. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking, it would be really great to, I do want to share Taiwan and, my own childhood, home with her at some point. And so I start imagining what would it be like to bring her back to Taiwan and show her everything. And that became the seed for Nainai's Mountain, which is a. Story of a girl visiting Taiwan for the first time with her grandmother. And her grandmother shows her around and tells her stories about her childhood, and the girl through her grandmother's eyes, sees Taiwan, you know, for the beautiful place that it is.    Miko Lee: [00:41:56] You also wrote the book I Dream of Popo. How are these companions to each other and also for audiences that might not speak Chinese. One is a grandmother on the mother's side, and the other is the grandmother on the father's side. Can you talk about how I dream of Popo is linked to Nainai's Mountain?   Livia Blackburne: [00:42:15] Thank you for pointing that out. Yes. So Popo is maternal grandmother, and Nainai is a paternal grandmother. And that is a fantastic question. So I dream of popo is kind of my story. So it's about a little girl who moves from Taiwan , to the United States and it's about her relationship with her grandmother who stays in Taiwan. And it talks about, how a close relationship, navigating long geographical distances about the language barrier that comes up. And that was very much me, Nainai's Mountain. It's kind of like Popo in reverse, you know, it's now it's someone going back to Taiwan and kind of getting in touch with those roots. That, as I mentioned, that's inspired by my daughter. And you'll see in Nainai's Mountain, I specified that the child should be, half Asian, half Caucasian. Because, I wanted more of that representation in the children's literature.    Miko Lee: [00:43:07] Thank you. I, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the artistic style. So you are the author, but you had different illustrators for both of the books and the style is really different. The in, when I look at Nainai's Mountain, which I'm holding here, it's sort of collage and really vibrant colors. Where I Dream of Popo has a different, more. I'm almost realistic, kind of look to it. And I'm wondering what your process was like in collaborating with illustrators.    Livia Blackburne: [00:43:37] That's one of the best things about being a picture book author, is that you get to collaborate with so many illustrators and they all have such different styles, such different visions. Most of the time it's the publisher who chooses the illustrator, although they. Consult me usually. My editor for I Dream of Popo picked Julia Kuo. And she sent me samples and I loved it. And, it was great. I'm friends with Julia now and that book did really well. It was very well known, especially in kind of Taiwanese American, Asian American circles. And so when I did, Nainai's mountain, that was with a different publishing house and my editor. He very consciously said, you know, because it's also a book about Taiwan and a grandmother. We don't want to get it confused with I dream of Popo. So, we made a conscious decision to pick an artist with a very different style and Joey Chou is fantastic. He's very well known for his Disney art. You can see his art in a lot of the hotels and cruise ships. And, he, very bright, vibrant, and I, he's also from Taiwan. I think he did a fantastic job.   Miko Lee: [00:44:41] And have the artistic work ever surprised you as being really different from your imagination while you were writing?    Livia Blackburne: [00:44:48] That's a great question. I don't think they've ever surprised me. By being different. They surprised me in the specifics that they've chosen. For example, I dream of Popo. Julia, spent a lot of time in Taiwan and she put in these great, Taiwan details that, you know, if you're from Taiwan, you would know for sure. There's like a specific brand of rice cooker called the rice cooker, and she has one there and like the giant bag of rice in the corner, and the calendar on the wall.   Miko Lee: [00:45:16] Even the specificities of the food and the trays and everything is quite lovely.    Livia Blackburne: [00:45:20] Yeah, yeah. You know, every time I read that, I look at that spread, I get hungry. So surprise there. And, with Joey, I, I love how he does the different, there's kind of flashback pictures and there's, pictures now and. The thing about him, his color, I just love the color that he put in from the greens, of Taiwan to kind of the bright fluorescent lights, neon lights of Taipei, and then there's kind of the slight sepia tones of the past and he just, you know, brings it so to life so well.   Miko Lee: [00:45:49] I didn't know he was a Disney animator, but it totally makes sense because it feels very layered. It does feel animated in a way and kind of alive. So I appreciate that.   Livia Blackburne: [00:45:59] I'm not sure. If he's an animator. He does a lot of art for the theme parks and like products and the cruise ships and stuff. I'm not sure.    Miko Lee: [00:46:07] Oh, interesting.   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:07] He does like movies and  stuff.    Miko Lee: [00:46:08] Interesting. It looks like animation though. Your book.    Livia Blackburne: [00:46:13] It does look very, yeah. Lively. Mm-hmm.    Miko Lee: [00:46:16] That I'm looking forward to that series. That would be so cute. The grandmother series as a whole little mini series traveling to different places. can you tell us about your new book, Dreams to Ashes? Has that been released yet?   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:29] Dreams to Ashes? That has been released that, released about a month before Nainai's Mountain. Yeah, that one's quite a bit different. So that one is a nonfiction book and it's a picture book, and it's about the Los Angeles massacre of 1871. Whenever people, I tell people about that, they're like, wait, you wrote a picture book about a massacre? Which is slightly counterintuitive. So I never knew about the Los Angeles massacre growing up. And, and, given that I am a Chinese person in Los Angeles, that is kind of weird. Basically, it was a race massacre that occurred. One of the biggest mass lynchings in history, uh, where there was a between two rival Chinese organizations and a white bystander was killed. And because of that, , a mob formed and they rounded the Chinese population up basically. And. Blame them for that death. In the end, 18 Chinese men were killed and only one of them were involved in the original gunfight. It was a horrible tragedy. And unfortunately, as often happened with these kind of historical tragedies in our country, nobody was really punished for it. A few men were indicted and convicted, but their convictions were overturned and it just kind of disappeared into history. And it really struck me that, you know, nobody knew about this. I wanted to kind of bring this to light and unfortunately when I was writing it, it was also, during the Covid pandemic and, I was seeing a lot of anti-Asian rhetoric, anti-Asian hate crimes were going up. And I saw so many parallels between what happened. Back then, because, you know, Chinese people specifically were being vilified , they were being called immoral, stealing people's jobs. And you can see in the years before the massacre the newspapers were saying horrible things and, you know, the hate was just becoming very strong and all that exploded one night into an unspeakable tragedy. Unfortunately as an author, you want your work to be relevant, but sometimes you don't want your work to be relevant in this way. Right. Nowadays I'm seeing so much rhetoric again against immigrants and not of many ethnicities. And in some ways I'm sad. That, this is happening now. And I also hope that this book will contribute to the conversation and show how the danger of racism and xenophobia and hate and what, what can happen because of that.   Miko Lee: [00:48:55] So this occurred in the late 1800s, right? Was it before the Chinese Exclusion Act?    Livia Blackburne: [00:49:03] Yes, it was before the Chinese Exclusion Act. So you'd hope that people kinda learn from these things. And it was just kind of one of the, one of the horrible things that happened on the way to the Chinese Exclusion Act and Chinese immigrants being excluded basically Chinese laborers at least.   Miko Lee: [00:49:23] Oh wow. Okay. I'm looking this up now. And 1882 we know was the Chinese Exclusion Act and this incident actually happened in 1871. Yes. A decade beforehand, Helen Zia always talks about these moments that are missing. MIH missing in history and this is clearly another one of, another time of just wiping out a population.I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more about how Children's Books can make a difference in the world that we're currently living in, where our government is banning books and you know that there's a narratives that they want to align with a certain kind of conservative ideology. Can you talk about the power of being a Children's Book author in this time that we're living in right now? . I'm really thinking about dreams to Ashes and even I dream of Popo and even Nainai's Mountain, which you would think, oh, they're, you, they're visiting their grandparent, their grandmothers, that would not be controversial. But now when even words like inclusion and diversity are threatened and books are being banned, I'm just wondering if you could. Share a little bit more about your superpower as a children's book author?    Livia Blackburne: [00:50:31] Yeah, that's a fantastic question. We live in a time right now, there's, a lot of hate, a lot of intolerance, a lot of fear of different people groups. And a lot of that I think is because people are unfamiliar with people unlike themselves. They see. People who are different, look differently, act differently, speak differently, and it scares them. And I think the best way to get around that is to actually get to know people of other backgrounds, to see them as human. And I think that's where children's books come in. ‘Cause we don't, children are not born. With this hate of the other. They learn it. But, if they grow up being familiar with people of different backgrounds seeing their stories seeing them as, normal human beings, which, should be obvious, but sometimes it's hard, for adults to realize. Then, I'm hoping, as a children's book author that it will lead to a more empathetic world. And perhaps that's why the government sometimes in certain groups are wanting to, censor this and control the flow of children's books because, children are the most their minds are still open. They're still able to learn.    Miko Lee: [00:51:48] And Livia, tell us what you're working on next.   Livia Blackburne: [00:51:53] So right now I am. Working on a historical middle grade. We haven't quite announced it yet, so I can't say the title or too many details, but it is based on my family history of my parents and grandparents who moved from China to Taiwan after the civil War.   Miko Lee: [00:52:12] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – June 12, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – June 5, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Happy Asian American & Pacific Islander Heritage Month! Even though the Trump Administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion here at APEX Express and KPFA. We believe in lifting up people's voices and tonight on APEX Express the Powerleegirls are focusing on “Asian American Children's book authors”. Powerleegirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee speak with: Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang, and Andrea Wang   AAPINH Month Children's Books part 1 transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:49] Happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Even though the Trump administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion. Here at Apex Express and KPFA, we believe in lifting up people's voices. And tonight on Apex Express, the PowerLeeGirls are focusing on Asian American Children's book authors. PowerLeeGirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee. Speak with Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang and Andrea Wang. Thanks for joining us tonight on Apex Express. Enjoy the show.   Miko Lee: [00:01:21] Welcome, Michele Wong McSween to Apex Express.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:26] Thank you, Miko. It's nice to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:01:28] I'm really happy to talk with you about your whole children's series, Gordon & Li Li, which is absolutely adorable. I wanna start very first with a personal question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:45] I would say my people are really my family starting with, my great, great grandparents who came here down to my grandparents, my parents, and onto my children because, to me family is. The reason why I created Gordon & Li Li in the first place, it was really to bridge that connection for my children. I didn't grow up feeling that connected with my culture because as a fourth generation Chinese American, I was really in the belief that I'm American. Why do I need to know anything about my culture? Why do I need to speak Chinese? I never learned. As a sidebar to that, I never learned to speak Chinese and it didn't really hit me until I had my own kids that I was really doing a disservice to not only my kids, but to myself. my people are my family. I do this for my kids. I do this to almost apologize to my parents for being so, Disrespectful to my amazing culture and I do it for the families who really want to connect and bridge that gap for their own children and for themselves.    Miko Lee: [00:02:53] And what legacy do you carry with you?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:02:55] Again, my family. My, great grandparents. Really. Started our family's legacy with the hard work and the prejudices and all the things that they endured so that we could have a better life. And I've always felt that it is my responsibility to teach my own kids about the sacrifices that were made and not to make them feel guilty, but to just make them appreciate that we are here. Because of the the blood, sweat, and tears that their ancestors did for them. And so we are, eternally grateful for that. I think it's important for us to continue that legacy of always doing our best, being kind and doing what we can do to further the experience of not just our family, but the people in our community that we connect with and to the greater world.    Miko Lee: [00:03:43] when you were growing up, were your parents speaking with you in Chinese and did you hear about your great grandparents and their legacy? Was that part of your upbringing?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:03:52] I heard about my great grandparents in the stories that my mom told us, but to be quite honest, I wasn't receptive to really digging deep in my cultural understanding of. my great-grandfather and what he went through. I know mom, I know he came over in 19 whatever. I know he brought over all these young sons from his village, but I really didn't fully take it in and. No, I didn't hear Chinese spoken in the house much. The only time my parents spoke it was to each other so that we didn't know what they were talking about. They had like this secret code, language. My experience with my language was not, That positive. we did attempt to go to Chinese school only to be teased by all the other kids because we didn't speak it. It didn't end up well. my mom ended up pulling us out and so no, we were really not connected all that much to the language.   Miko Lee: [00:04:48] I can really relate to what you're saying. As a fifth generation Chinese American, and my parents their ancestors came from different provinces, so their dialects were so different that they even spoke to each other in English. 'cause they couldn't understand each other in Chinese. So it happens so often. Yeah. Yeah. And so I really relate to that. I'm wondering if there was an epiphany in your life or a time where you thought, oh, I. I wish I knew more of those stories about my ancestors or was there some catalyst for you that changed?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:05:17] All of this really kind of happened when I moved to New York. I, you know, raised in Sacramento, went to college in the Bay Area, lived in San Francisco for a while with a job, and then I eventually moved to New York. And it wasn't until I came to New York and I met Asians or Chinese Americans like me that actually spoke Chinese and they knew about cool stuff to do in Chinatown. It really opened my eyes to this new cool world of the Chinese culture because I really experienced Chinatown for the first time when I moved to New York. And it was just so incredible to see all these people, living together in this community. And they all looked the same. But here's the thing, they all spoke Chinese, or the majority of them spoke Chinese. So when I went to Chinatown and they would look at me and speak to me in Chinese and I would give them this blank stare. They would just look at me like, oh my gosh, she doesn't even speak her own language. And it kind of made me feel bad. And this was really the first time that it dawned on me that, oh wow, I, I kind of feel like something's missing. And then it really hit me when I had my kids, because they're half Chinese and I thought, oh my gosh, wait a minute, if I'm their last connection to the Chinese culture and I don't speak the language. They have no chance of learning anything about their language they couldn't go that deep into their culture if I didn't learn about it. So that really sparked this whole, Gordon & Li Li journey of learning and discovering language and culture for my kids.    Miko Lee: [00:06:51] Share more about that. How, what happened actually, what was the inspiration for creating the Children's book series?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:06:58] It was really my children, I really felt that it was my responsibility to teach them about their culture and language and, if I didn't know the language, then I better learn it. So I enrolled all of us in different Mandarin courses. They had this, I found this really cute kids' Mandarin class. I went to adult Mandarin classes and I chose Mandarin because that was the approved official language in China. I am from Taishan, My parents spoke Taishanese, but I thought, well, if Mandarin's the official language, I should choose that one probably so that my kids will have at least a better chance at maybe some better jobs in the future or connecting with, the billion people that speak it. I thought Mandarin would be the way to go. When I started going to these classes and I just realized, wow, this is really hard, not just to learn the language, but to learn Mandarin Chinese, because we're not just talking about learning how to say the four different tones. We're talking about reading these characters that if you look at a Chinese character, you have absolutely no idea what it sounds like if you're, if you're learning Spanish or French or German, you can see the letters and kind of sound it out a little bit. But with Chinese characters. No chance. So I found it extremely difficult and I realized, wow, I really need to support my kids more because if I am going to be the one that's going to be bridging this connection for them, I need to learn more and I need to find some more resources to help us. when we would have bedtime story time, that whole routine. That was always the favorite time of my kids to be really, quiet and they would really absorb what I was saying, or we would talk about our days or just talk about funny things and I realized, wow, these books that they love and we have to read over and over and over again. this is the way that they're going to get the information. And I started searching high and low for these books. back in 2006, they didn't exist. and so I realized if they didn't exist and I really wanted them for my kids, then I needed to create them. That's the impetus, is there was nothing out there and I really wanted it so badly that I had to create it myself.   Miko Lee: [00:09:09] Oh, I love that. And I understand you started out self-publishing. Can you talk a little bit about that journey?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:09:15] I'm glad I didn't know what I know today because it was really hard. luckily I had, A friend who used to work for a toy company, it was all through connections. there was nothing really on Google about it. there was no Amazon print on demand. There were none of these companies that provide these services like today. So I just kept asking questions. Hey, do you know a toy manufacturer in China that maybe prints books? Do you know a company that could help me? get my books to the states. Do you know an illustrator that can help me illustrate my books? Because I had gone to fashion design school, but I had not learned to illustrate characters or things in a book. So asking questions and not being afraid to ask the questions was really how I was able to do it because, Without the help of friends and family, I wouldn't have been able to do this. I had all my friends look at my books, show them to their kids. I had my kids look at them, and I kind of just figured it out as I went along. Ultimately when I did publish my first book, I had so much support from my kids' schools. To read the books there, I had support from a local play space for kids that we would go to. I really leaned on my community to help me, get the books out there, or actually it was just one at the time. Two years later I self-published two more books. So I had three in total. no one tells you that when you self-publish a book, the easy part is actually creating it. The hard part is what comes after that, which is the pr, the marketing, the pounding, the pavement, knocking on the doors to ask people to buy your books, and that was really hard for me. I would just take my books in a bag and I would explain my story to people and I would show them my books. sometimes they would say, okay, I'll take one of each, or Okay, we'll try it out. and slowly but surely they would reorder from me. I just slowly, slowly built up, a whole Roster of bookstores and I kept doing events in New York.    I started doing events in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and through that I gained some following, some fans and people would tell their friends about me. they would give them to their nieces they would give them to their cousin's kids, or, things like that. I knew that I had to do it because my ultimate goal was to have Scholastic be my publisher. That was my ultimate goal. Because they are the publisher that I grew up with, that I love that I connected with, that I was so excited to get their book club, little flyer. I would check off every book that I wanted. And my mom never said no. She always let me get every single book I wanted. I realize now that that's what really Created the love of books for me is just having access to them and, going to the libraries and seeing all these books on the bookshelves and being able to take them out and read them on the spot. And then if I loved them enough, I would check them out and take them home and read them over and over. So it was really, my experience, having that love for books that I thought, oh gosh, it would be a dream. To have Scholastic become my publisher. So after 10 long years of events and community outreach and selling to these bookstores, I finally thought, okay, I've sold, about 17,000, 18,000 books. Maybe, maybe now I can take my series to them. I also had created an app. Maybe I can take this to them and show them what I've done. Maybe they'll be interested in acquiring me. And I got an appointment with the editor and I pitched my books on my app and within a couple of days they offered to acquire my books, which was my dream come true. So anyway, that was a very long story for how self-publishing really is and how ultimately it really helped my dream come true.    Miko Lee: [00:13:08] Now your books are on this Scholastic book, fair Circuit, right?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:13:13] Yes, they are. Well, it's actually just one book. They took the three books, which were everyday Words. Count in Mandarin and learn animals in Mandarin. They took all three books and they put them in one big compilation book, which is called My First Mandarin Words with Gordon & Li Li. So it's a bigger book. It's a bigger board book. Still very, very sturdy and it's a great, starter book for any family because it has those three first themes that were the first themes that I taught my own boys, and I think. It just, it's very natural for kids to want to learn how to count. animals were, and my kids were animal lovers, so I knew that that's what would keep them interested in learning Mandarin because they actually loved the topic. So, yes, my first mandarin words with Gordon & Li Li does live on Scholastics big roster.   Miko Lee: [00:14:01] Fun. Your dream come true. I love it. Yeah. Thanks. And you were speaking earlier about your background in fashion design. Has there been any impact of your fashion design background on your voice as a children's book author?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:14:14] I don't know if my background as a fashion designer has had any impact on my voice. I think it's had an impact on how I imagined my books and how I color my books and how I designed them because of working with, you know, color palettes and, and putting together collections I can visually see and, can anticipate. Because I have that background, I can kind of anticipate what a customer might want. And also, you know, speaking with people at my events and seeing what kids gravitate to, that also helps. But I think there's so much more to being an author than just writing the books. You know, when I go to my events, I have a table display, I have setups, I have props, I have, I actually now have a, a small. Capsule of merchandise because I missed designing clothes. So I have a teeny collection of, you know, sweaters, hoodies, onesies, a tote bag, and plushies   Miko Lee: [00:15:04] they're super cute by the way.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:06] Oh, thank you. So, you know, fashion has come in in different ways and I think having that background has really helped. kind of become who they are    Miko Lee: [00:15:17] Can you tell us about the latest book in the series, which is Gordon and Li Li All About Me. Can you tell a little bit about your latest?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:25] Gordon & Li Li All About Me is really, it's, to me, it's. I think my most fun interactive book because it really gets kids and parents up and out of their chairs, out of their seats and moving around. And you know, as a parent, I always would think about the kind of books that my kids would gravitate towards. What would they want to read and what as a parent would I want to read with my kids? Because really reading is all about connection with your kids. That's what I loved about books is it gave me a way to connect with my kids. And so a book about body parts to me is just a really fun way to be animated and get up and move around and you can tickle and, and squeeze and shake it around and dance around. And, you know, having three boys, my house was just like a big energy ball. So I knew that this book would be a really fun one for families and I have two nieces and a nephew, and I now, they're my new target market testers, and they just loved it. They had so much fun pointing to their body parts and the book ends with head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English and in Mandarin. And so of course. Every kid knows head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English. So we sing that. We get up, we point to our pottered parts, we shake it around, we dance around. And then the fun part is teaching them head, shoulders, knees, and toes in Mandarin because they're already familiar with the song. It's not scary to learn something in Mandarin. It just kind of naturally happens. And so I think the All About Me book is just a really fun way to connect with kids. I've actually launched it at a couple of events already and the response to the book has been overwhelming. I was at the Brooklyn Children's Museum and even the president of the museum came and did the head shoulders. Knees and toes, songs with us. It was so much fun. Everybody was dancing around and having a great time. So I'm just really, really excited for people to pick up this book and really learn about the body. It's, you know, body positivity, it's body awareness, and it's just a great way to connect with your kids.   Miko Lee: [00:17:31] So fun. I, I saw that you're recently at the Asian American Book Con. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:17:38] Oh, that was great. That was the first of its kind and. I led the entire author segment of it. I would say individual authors. There were, there were, publishing companies that brought in their own authors, but I was responsible for bringing in the independent authors. And so I think we had about eight of us. There were Indian, Korean, Chinese, Taiwanese, and we all came together for this one really special day of celebrating our voices and lifting each other up. And there was so much energy and so much positivity in that event, and I. Actually was just thinking about reaching out to the organizers last year and seeing if we could maybe do, part two? So, I'm glad you brought that up. It was a really positive experience.    Miko Lee: [00:18:27] So we're celebrating the end of Asian American Pacific Islander Native Hawaiian month. Can you tell us why this month is important to you?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:18:36] When you have something designated and set aside as, this is the month that we're going to be celebrating Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander heritage all month long, I think it kind of perks up. People's ears and they think, oh wow, this is a great opportunity for me to see what's happening in my community. I think it just brings the awareness to. The broader community and ultimately the world. And I think when we learn about each other and each other's cultures, it brings us closer together and makes us realize that we're really not that different from each other. And I think when there are so many events happening now it peaks the interest of people in the neighborhood that might otherwise not know about it and it can, really bring us closer together as a community.   Miko Lee: [00:19:27] Michelle Wong McSween, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express. It's great to hear more about you and about your latest book Gordon & Li Li and the entire series. Thank you so much.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:19:39] Thank you, Miko   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:40] Thank you all so much for joining us. I'm here with Gloria l Huang, author of Kaya of the Ocean. Thank you so much for joining us, Gloria.    Gloria Huang: [00:19:48] Oh, thanks so much for having me here.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:50] So first off, one question that we're asking all of our guests on our show tonight is, who are your people? However you identify, you know, your community, your ancestors, and what legacy do you carry with you?    Gloria Huang: [00:20:01] Oh, that's such a good question. So I am my heritage is Chinese. My parents were born in China and then grew up in Taiwan. And I myself was actually born in Canada. But then moved the states pretty young and and American Canadian dual citizen and now, but I, my heritage plays a lot into my. Kind of my worldview. It really shaped, how I grew up and how I saw things. And so it features very prominently in my writing and in my stories as you could probably tell from Kaya the ocean.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:34] Yes. And I love the book so much. It was such a    Gloria Huang: [00:20:37] thank you,    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:38] amazing read. And I'm also half Chinese and love the ocean. Just love the beach so much and have always felt such a connection with the water. I don't wanna give away too much things about the book, but I was wondering if you could talk about your inspiration for writing it and a little bit about, setting and everything.   Gloria Huang: [00:20:56] Of course. So the inspiration for the book actually started I came up with the idea when the world was first emerging from the pandemic and I was seeing a lot of people obviously experiencing a lot of anxiety, but a lot of children very close to me in my life. And they were experiencing it for the first time, which was can be so difficult. I remember when it happened to me and there's just this tendency to. Worry that there's something wrong with you or that you've done something and you feel so alone. And so I remember standing by the ocean one night actually and thinking that I'd really love to write a book about a girl who is struggling with. The anxiety just to be able to send a message to all these kids that there's nothing wrong with them. They're not alone and really all parts of who they are. Even the parts they might not love so much are important parts of these amazing, beautiful, complicated people. They are. So that was the inspiration for that part of the story, the setting. I was very inspired. As you mentioned, the ocean is a huge inspiration to me. It actually comes into my mind, a lot of my stories and someone pointed that out once and I was like, you're right, it does. And I think part of it is that I love the ocean. I love the beach. I love being there, but I'm also so in awe of this powerful thing that, you know, where we know so little about it. It is. There's so much mystery to it. It can look so beautiful on the surface and be so dangerous underneath. I love it as a metaphor. I love it as a part of nature. So I think that was a huge part of why I wanted to incorporate that, especially because I think it also plays well into the metaphor for how some people experience anxiety and you can be calm on the surface, but so much is happening underneath.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:22:29] Absolutely. Yeah. Those interplay with each other and are metaphors for each other in such a beautiful way, mirror the experience. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit more about anxiety and particular, as a young Asian American girl the cultural specificity of having anxiety as a young Asian American woman.    Gloria Huang: [00:22:46] Yes I definitely think it's no coincidence. I think that anxiety often goes hand in hand with perfectionism and pressure and I, many people feel that kind of pressure, but certainly a young Asian girl especially with immigrant parents, will feel specific kind of pressure. And so I was really trying to portray that, Somebody once said to me, they were like, oh, I really like how Kaya on the surface seems so put together. She's, got really good grades. She works really hard at school. She's close to her parents, but there's all this going on underneath. And I actually think that's not unusual in terms of that experience for Asian American children of immigrants, and especially if you're female I was really trying to. Tease that out. And then in addition I think there's a tendency, and this might exist in other cultures as well, but in Asian culture, at least in my family history there's a tendency not to really want to talk about mental health. There was a, there's a joke in my family that my parents thought anything could be solved with good sleep and good nutrition, like anytime you had any problem. And I think that there is a, there's a. resistance to feeling like your child can be struggling in a way you can't help them. So I, really wanted to touch on that, part of the cultural pressures at play in kaya's life.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:23:59] And you did so beautifully and it was very relatable, as a anxious Asian girly. And also just, the discussion of big feelings and somehow, having inklings that you may be more powerful than you even realize, but the kind of like emotions that come with that too.    Gloria Huang: [00:24:15] Yes. I think that's a huge part of it is that like when you experience these huge feelings they feel powerful, know, in a negative way. But what I was really trying to get at was, there is also power in accepting these parts of yourself and realizing that They can make up this powerful being that you are, even if you might not love them in that moment.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:34] Yeah. I felt very seen by the book and I, couldn't help but wonder wow, what would it have been like if I had read this when I was, 13 or 12 or kind of Closer to the age of the characters in the book.   Gloria Huang: [00:24:45] Thank you so much for saying that it actually means a lot because a lot of my motivation when I do write these books is to write for people who are either of that age or, wish they had a book like that at that age, which is also how I feel a lot about books nowadays and oh, I, I'm so glad that exists. I wish that had been around when I was that age.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:25:03] Yes. Were there any books that really set an example for you that either you read, maybe when you were, in the young adult. Age range or that you've read now as an adult where you're like, okay, this is definitely the audience that I wanna be writing for.   Gloria Huang: [00:25:17] Definitely. I actually love this question 'cause I'm a big reader and so I love talking about books . When I was a kid, middle grade books were my gateway into my love of reading. So I still remember a lot of my favorite books, but I would say a recent book, it's actually maybe not that recent now, it's maybe a couple years old, but a book that really. Had an effect on the middle grade book was when you trap a tiger by Tae Keller and it explores. The kind of Korean experience, but also through the prism of kind of understanding generational grief. And it was just so beautifully done and really made an impact on me. So that was one recently that I thought was really powerful. And, I was like, this is an important book. This is definitely a book I would've loved as a child. When I was younger and I was reading books, there were three books that meant a lot to me. One was called the true confessions of Charlotte Doyle, and it was like a swashbuckling adventure story starring a girl, which was, at that time not very common. And it was, it meant, it was so earth shattering to me to be able to see a female character in that role. So that was great. There's a book called. Homecoming by Cynthia Voigt. And it's an adventure story and it also stars. The main character is a very strong female character and Tuck everlasting, which I just think is a beautiful book. It's also female characters. Now I'm saying it out loud. They are all female main characters. And all about, existentialism and adventure and things that, it was important for me to see. Female characters exploring. But I did also wanna say that when I was reading middle grade books, some of my favorite books included a series called, babysitters Club, which I think that they've redone now as a graphic novel. And that was actually really important, not necessarily for the stories, but because there's a character named Claudia Kishi who. Was a Japanese American character and she absolutely shattered the minds of, I think all kids that age were Asian descent and female in reading these books because there just wasn't a character like her before that, she was so cool and artistic but she had immigrant parents and she had a sister who was very good at math and they didn't get along and she loved junk food and she was. So incredibly nuanced and it was just not something that we saw back then. So that really inspired me, I think, to want to add to the diversity of voices. And thankfully there are many more diverse voices now than when I was reading.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:30] I love that. And I also feel like books that you read at that age, they stay with you forever.   Gloria Huang: [00:27:35] They really do.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:35] And they shape so much of like your worldview and your friendships. And I'm curious, 'cause I know the book was released this year in January. Mm-hmm. So what has it been like for you on your book tour and what's been some other responses that you've heard? I.    Gloria Huang: [00:27:48] It's been really great. It was so exciting to do the book launch and then just the amount of support from the writing community from, my, my kind of network, my agents and my publisher and editor. And also just readers. It's been really great. But one thing I think I wasn't expecting to love quite so much, not because I was expecting to not love it. I just said, it occurred to me that I would feel this way is getting feedback from, child readers is amazing because, I think as writers we love feedback no matter what. And if it's positive feedback, that's even better. But having a child reach out and as some of my friends will send a video of their. Children reacting to the book or they'll, their, let their child type out a text messages and just to hear how the book hits with them and to hear their excitement or to hear that they were moved or to have them want to know what happens next. It meant so much to me because it was, they're the target audience and to have them feel seen in that way was just, it's just the ultimate kind of powerful feeling.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:51] That is so sweet. Oh my gosh. I can only imagine. And so you're talking about the young readers. Yes. But I'm also curious if you have any advice or thoughts for young writers who might be wanting to share and get similar stories out to the world?   Gloria Huang: [00:29:05] Yeah I definitely do. And one of the. Experiences I've had that's been great is I've been doing, some school visits and I go and I talk about the book, but I actually talk about the writing process. And when I do that, I really talk to the kids. As if they're writers. The one of the first questions I ask is, hold up your hand. If you love writing or you think you want me, you might wanna be a writer someday. And a lot of hands go up and I tell them like, what the publishing process is, what are, the different genre options, what you might wanna consider, how you come up with an idea, how you sit down and write it, how you reach out to an agent. And I am surprised at how. Intensely, they're hanging onto every word and they're insightful questions after it. It shows me that a lot of them are really thinking about this. I think for one of the school visits, I remember someone held up her hand and she said what is the youngest age I. Someone has been able to be published. And I thought that was great. Because they're so inspired and you can tell that, that they're thinking for the first time this is a possibility. I have all kinds of advice during the school visits, the main piece of advice is really. Just that it can be a tough industry. writing is a very isolated process usually. There's a lot of kind of obstacles and there's a lot of gatekeeping. And so I tell 'em that the most important thing they can do is just keep pushing through and not to let any, setbacks stop them, because the ultimate goal is to reach even just one person.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:24] Absolutely. And what kind of advice do you give around learning how to hone your own voice and also having discipline when it comes to an artistic practice?   Gloria Huang: [00:30:33] Yeah, I think that's such a great question. And I was gonna say this piece of advice is probably more for I. Older writers, but adult writers, I guess I should say. The one thing that I've really been thinking about having published a middle grade book is the very specific and unique experience of writing for middle grade audiences. I think a lot of my friends who write for older audience groups, young adults, adults, They have their own challenges, but one of the things that is different is when they're writing, they are writing for the same target audience. That's also the decision makers. So generally, adults and young adults are picking their own books, and they're speaking to someone who will. Ultimately be the ones to pick up the books where when you're writing for middle grade audiences they're not usually the decision makers. at bookstores, they may or may not be in charge of which book they buy, in. Schools, usually it's a librarian or a teacher. So in some ways you're writing for one audience, but you're also writing a subject matter that you're hoping the decision makers will decide is worthy to put in front of your ultimate readers. So that's one challenge. And then the other challenge is I think middle grade audiences are so. fascinating because they're going through this amazingly unusual time in their lives, whether it's eventful and there's new experiences and that can be exciting, but also scary. So there's a lot to mind in terms of topics, but they are also a mixture of being very sophisticated readers who are on the cusp of being teens. And so there's a healthy dose of, skepticism, but they're still young enough that they. Believe in magic, at least in the literary world. So you, there's a lot of room to play with that. But they also. They sound different. They speak differently than adults. So it's important to get the dialogue, for me I, turn to children in my life, including my own, just to do a check to make sure that the dialogue sounds authentic and something that, people, that kids would say. So a lot of thoughts there, but I think, I've been thinking a lot about middle grade and writing for middle grade, and what a unique experience it is.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:26] Yeah, that's such a good point about the decision maker and having the multiple audiences, and I'm sure sometimes the decision makers are reading the books too, right? Or reading it with their kids or what have you. For your personal writing practice, are there any upcoming projects that you can share with us? And how do you stay inspired for what I imagine is like the long haul of writing something.    Gloria Huang: [00:32:45] I'm happiest when I have like several projects in the pipeline. So as soon as I am done a book or it's, outta my hands, it's with my agents or my editors. I'm looking to write another book. And I think sometimes I probably overwhelm my amazing book before agents. 'cause I'm like, I'm ready to start another story. And they're like, we're still looking at the book you just sent us. But I, that's very much how. I am happiest. I would definitely say that everybody finds their own rhythm. I'm in some writers groups and some people are incredibly fast drafters and just need multiple projects at a time. And some people are like, no, I need to work on one project and I need to have it to perfection and I'm gonna work on it for a year or two. And I think whatever works for the individual artist, I think is the best kind of process for them. But yes, for me it's very much about having multiple projects. I think I'm most inspired when I have different projects going at the same time. finding your own rhythm, I think is my advice.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:40] kaya of the ocean has, strong themes and storylines about, myths, mythology, Chinese mythology, and goddesses. I'm curious if you wanna talk any more about that and then also if that shows up in any of the other projects you're working on    Gloria Huang: [00:33:54] Yes, the Chinese mythological water goddess that features. Pretty prominently in Kaya of the Ocean is Matsu. And I find her to be such a fascinating character. She is a real goddess who's worshiped still in Asia. I think. Fishermen often will, pray to her for safe passage when they go out on the water. And my father told me about her when I was younger he told me like the side stories and I thought that was really interesting. But it was only when I started thinking about this book that I thought, I'd love to, I'd love to incorporate her. I hadn't heard about her too much in, in the fictional world, even though I knew she was still like a revered goddess. But I thought it was so cool that she was this strong. I. Strong female figure in a space that didn't always have that, hundreds of years ago. And so I dove into her story a little bit and found out, the story is that she was once a human child who loved to read and then she was afraid of swimming in water until she was older and then she drowned, saving, trying to save some relatives and it was interesting 'cause I'd already started plotting out Kaya and writing Kaya. And so much of her story wove easily into what I had already come up with. Like there, I think she has two sidekicks that were one time enemies that she, made into her friends and I'd already had Kaya written with two friends, Naomi and Ana. So I, there was just so much that I felt was kismet. And it was really fun to be able to weave that story together and fictionalize it. But I think it was also meaningful for me to be able to do that because. When I was younger, I loved reading Greek mythology. the stories are beautiful and they've been redone in beautiful ways, but it definitely was an area where I didn't necessarily see myself reflected. As part of my goal to add to the diversity of voices, I really wanted to feature Chinese mythology and bring those stories in so that. Kids can either see themselves reflected in those stories and or understand a new kind of set of mythology and learn about a new culture.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:46] Yes. I'm so glad you put it that way because it is, it's such a privilege to have access to, our own I. Cultural stories and knowledge through these, like fun and modern interpretations. Definitely. So I'm so glad that this can provide that.    Gloria Huang: [00:36:00] Oh, thank you. I did realize I didn't answer your other question, which is does it feature my other works? Which so I have sold another middle grade novel and I'm, it's not announced yet. I'm hoping to announce it soon. And I have some other. Books. I'm working on a young adult novel so far. They have not featured Chinese mythology, but I do definitely have a type that my most of my books tend to be contemporary settings, but with elements of speculative. Fantasy, just like the light touch of that and sometimes a little bit of historical elements as well. So they, they definitely all have that similar motif, but so far chi of the ocean is the only one to feature a Chinese mythological goddess.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:43] Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that. And I really love the relationship that Kaya had with her two friends and just and then also like the cousin that comes and just capturing like the banter amongst, amongst the girls.    Gloria Huang: [00:36:56] Thank you so much. that was really important to me, I think because at the stage that Kaia is in her life the loves of her life really are her two friends, Naomi and Ana, and they feature very prominently in how she learns to cope with her anxiety and her symptoms of anxiety. And so I really, I think that I really wanted to center her their friendship as much as possible. So I'm I'm glad that you saw it that way too.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:19] Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, it truly is the most important relationship. And so it's nice when works of fiction and yeah, works of fiction, can reflect that in such a beautiful way. I know you mentioned that you have daughters or have children?    Gloria Huang: [00:37:32] I do, yes. I have a son and a daughter. And my daughter actually was quite involved because when I first started writing Kaya, I think she was exactly of the age that she would be the target reader group. And so she actually helped Beta read it. She provided a lot of feedback. She became like a cheerleader. She was definitely involved in the process and I think that was really exciting for her. my son became of the reading age once it came out, so he reads it and he's a big fan too,   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:00] that's so sweet. I love that your daughter was part of the editing process too. That's amazing.    Gloria Huang: [00:38:04] Yeah. Yeah. She loves writing and always says she wants to be a writer herself, so it was really special that she got to be part of this and see it up close.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:13] Oh wow. Do you think you would do any collaborative projects with her in the future?   Gloria Huang: [00:38:16] It's so funny that you say that. She always suggests that. And then sometimes they'll actually start a Google doc and they'll say, let's write a story together. And we all have, of course, very different writing styles. And then at some point they both actually usually just start reading what I'm writing. And at that point I'm like, this is not collaborative. You have to write as well. So we've had a couple of false starts, but that's always a joke that we're gonna do that together.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:39] that's so sweet. What else is upcoming for you? I know this is, Asian American and native Hawaiian Pacific Islander month right now, and the episode will come out towards the end of May. So if there's anything else coming up from you for this month or for June or the summer. Yeah. We'd love to hear what you have going on.    Gloria Huang: [00:38:57] Oh, yeah. Today actually Kaya's audio book was released people can listen to it. It was narrated by this amazing, narrator, Cindy K. And so anywhere you find audio books is available. And that was really cool. I've listened to a little bit of it and you, when you write, you hear the words in your head one way, and then it's amazing to hear like another artist do their take on it. So that's really cool. I will be at the Bay Area book Festival at the end of the month of May. There. Doing like different panels and I'll be on a panel. it's about Fantastical Worlds. I'm really excited about that. hopefully we'll be able to announce this other book soon. As you, you may know publishing is a very long lead time it will be a while before it's released, but I think the hope is to release it during, a API month as well just not this year. And working on a young adult novel that hopefully we can go on submission with at some point. But it's an exciting time for sure.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:51] Wow, that does sound so exciting. I can't wait to hear about your new projects and to continue to read the work that you put out into the world. Is there anything else that you'd like to discuss or talk about?   Gloria Huang: [00:40:01] I think just to say a thank you to you for, having me on here and reading Kaya of the Ocean and really anyone who's been interested in joining Kaya and her friends on their journey. It's just, it's so amazing, I think, to create these characters that become real to you, and then have them become real to other people. I don't have the words to describe how meaningful it is to me, but thank you.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:40:24] Thank you for letting us join into the world of Kaya for a little bit 'cause it was very fun and healing and all of the amazing things. And thanks so much for joining us today on Apex Express.    Gloria Huang: [00:40:36] For sure. Thanks so much.   Miko Lee: [00:40:38] Welcome, Andrea Wang, award-winning children's book author to Apex Express.    Andrea Wang: [00:40:43] Thank you, Miko. I'm so happy to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:40:46] Happy to have you. I'd love to start first with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Andrea Wang: [00:40:57] My people are from China. My mother's family belonged to an ethnic minority, called the Haka or the Kaja people, and she and her siblings were. A military family, and we're each born in a different province. And when the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949, they went to Taiwan where she grew up and immigrated to the United States in 1965 or 1966. My father's family are from Guangdong Province, and so I'm Cantonese on that side, although I don't speak any Cantonese. And he went to Hong Kong after the Chinese Civil War. So I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants, second generation Chinese American.    Miko Lee: [00:42:01] And what legacy do you carry with you?   Andrea Wang:[00:42:03]  I carry the legacy of their stories, both the ones that I know and the ones that I don't know yet.    Miko Lee: [00:42:12] Ooh. It sounds like there's lots of juicy things for you still to discover. That is fun.    Andrea Wang: [00:42:16] Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:42:17] Today we're talking about your new book, watercress, can you share what the audience, what the book is about, and then what is your inspiration for this book?    Andrea Wang: [00:42:25] So the book is about a Chinese American girl who is growing up in rural Ohio and her parents spot watercress growing in a ditch by the side of the road, and they immediately pull over and make her enter older brother, get out of the car and get down into the ditch with them and collect this. Vegetable, but to her it's a weed. And so when they serve it to her and her family at dinner, she really is unhappy about this and. For her, picking food out of a ditch has a really different meaning than it does to her parents who survived a lot of hardship in China. And it's not until her mom tells her a story about her childhood growing up in China and spoiler alert, loses a sibling to the famine that the girl begins to understand and better appreciate her parents, her culture, and her heritage.   Miko Lee: [00:43:29] And the inspiration for this book.    Andrea Wang: [00:43:32] So the inspiration is largely my own life. this is a semi autobiographical story. The memory of picking watercress by the side of the road was just something that I couldn't forget, I don't know why this memory continued to haunt me into adulthood. And then after my mom passed away, I started writing down, memories and stories of being with my family in order to maintain a connection to her. When I wrote this, at first it was a personal essay and it just wasn't working. I would put it away and I would occasionally take it out and I would put it away and take it out and work on it again. And it wasn't until I decided to pursue writing for young people that I completely changed the manuscript from a personal essay into a picture book. But at that point it still wasn't working. It was in third person and it wasn't very personal It took me several more years to figure out the heart of the story for me. So it was largely based on my own memories and my mother's childhood stories that she shared with me.   Miko Lee: [00:44:39] Can you share more about the power of memory and the artistic process? 'cause you've written many books and in different genres as well, but can you talk a little bit more about memory and its impact on your work?   Andrea Wang: [00:44:52] Yeah, that's a great question. I tend to write primarily for myself. And to figure out how I felt about certain experiences, how they've changed me, to try and process things I feel like I remember a lot about my childhood. parts of it are very vivid and I like to go back to those. Moments that have stuck with me all these years and explore what it means to me. Like I'm just very curious about why I remember certain things watercress was largely my way of processing my childhood feelings of shame about my family and my culture. I have leaned into that and am still writing stories about identity and the struggle to find our identity. Memory has a lot to do with it. I put myself in every single book.    Miko Lee: [00:45:45] Ooh, that's so interesting. And you're talking a little bit about shame and overcoming that. I'm wondering if you could speak more on, if you feel like memories hold the power to heal.    Andrea Wang: [00:45:56] I firmly believe that memories hold the power to heal. I think that writing watercress and talking about these feelings has really helped me, , heal from, that sort of trauma of not feeling like I belonged as a kid and also that I may have been. Not the nicest kid to my parents, not the most filial, right? And so writing this story was, as I say in the author's note, sort of an apology and a love letter to my parents. So it's been very healing and healing to hear about from all the. People who have read the book and had it resonate with them, the things that they regretted in their lives and hoped to, heal as well.    Miko Lee: [00:46:42] Oh, have you heard that story a lot from adult readers?   Andrea Wang: [00:46:46] I have. They will often tell me about the things that their parents did that embarrassed them. A lot of foraging stories, but also stories about, relatives and ancestors who were sharecroppers or indigenous peoples. And it's just been fascinating how many people connect to the story on different levels. There is that theme of poverty. I think recognizing. That's not often talked about in children's books, I think makes people feel very seen.   Miko Lee: [00:47:14] Yeah. That feeling of shame is really showcased by the illustrator Jason Chin. I mean your young you character kind of has a grumpy look on their face. And it was just so fun. Even in the book notes, Jason Chin, the illustrator, writes about how he combined both the western and eastern style of art, but also his similar cross-cultural background. I'm wondering when you very first saw the artwork and this was kind of young you did anything surprise you by it?    Andrea Wang: [00:47:42] I mean, it's amazing, gorgeous artwork and I was really struck by how he dealt with the flashbacks because when I sold this manuscript, I. Had no idea how an illustrator would deal with how interior it is and, , and how they would tackle those flashbacks. And there's one spread where on the left hand side of the page, it shows the main character's current time and then it morphs across the gutter of the book into. The moms past and her childhood memories in China, and it was just exquisite is really the only way to describe it. It was, it's just brilliant, and amazing. We don't, as picture book authors typically get to work with our illustrators. We often do not have contact with them through the making of a picture book. But in this case. Our editors said since it was such a personal story for me, that he, , felt that Jason and I should collaborate. And so I provided photos, family photos, photos of Ohio, lots of different, , source materials to Jason and would talk to him about the feelings that young me in the book went through. And so the fact that, he was able to take all of that and put it on the page, it was just. Spectacular.    Miko Lee: [00:49:01] Oh, that's so fun. I also understand that you love mythical creatures as you I, and one of your children's books is the Nian Monster, which I love. I'm wondering what is your favorite mythical creature and why?   Andrea Wang: [00:49:15] I. Have been sort of fascinated with the qilin, the, or they call it the Chinese unicorn. Right. Although it looks very different from what we think of a, a European unicorn looks like. Yes. And I think it's because they're supposed to be this really benevolent, creature and Have all sorts of powers and I would love to do more research about the qilin and, you know, incorporate that into a book someday.   Miko Lee: [00:49:42] Ooh, fun. Next book. I love it. you have so many books and I'm really curious about your upcoming book Worthy about Joseph Pierce. I love these as Helen Zia talks about these. MIH moments that are missing in history. And Joseph Pierce was the highest ranking Chinese American man who fought in the Civil War. Some people might recognize this picture of this Chinese American guy in a kind of civil war, uniform. Can you tell us one, when is the book being released and a little bit more about it?    Andrea Wang: [00:50:11] Sure. The book is being released on September 9th, 2025, and it is. A picture book, which we typically think of as for younger readers, but it is 64 pages. So you know, it's an all ages picture book. I think my editor and I would like to say, and it is the story of a Chinese boy born in the, First half of the 18 hundreds in China in Guangdong province, and was sold by his father to an American ship captain named Amos Peck. the reasons for that are, lost to time, right? He left no primary sources behind, there was so much going on in China at the time. Famine war, you know, all of these, Difficult things that his father probably sold him in order to keep the rest of the family alive and as well as give him the opportunity to have a better life. And he did end up in Connecticut. He was raised with the captain's, siblings and sent to school and treated almost like a member of the family except for the fact that he was. Clearly Chinese and there were very few Chinese people in, Connecticut at that time. he joined the Union Army when he came of age and was able to leverage his service into gaining citizenship, which really people of color, weren't really able to do successfully back then. And so. He gained a citizenship. He married, he had a family. He was able to own property and accomplish all these amazing things. Sort of right before the Chinese exclusion Act was, enacted. So he was a very brave guy.    Miko Lee: [00:51:45] It's a wild story and you sent me on a little bit of a rabbit hole, which is fun. Just, looking at Ruth Ann, McCune's. historical piece that there were 10 different Chinese American men in the Civil War, but he was exceptional because he rose to such high ranks. And I just think it's so interesting that, in the 1880 census, he registered as Chinese. But then after the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, he listed his race as Japanese in the 1890 census. but he was racialized as white so that he could buy property and everything. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about that, like talk about code switching? He like literally changed his race,    Andrea Wang: [00:52:26] right. And people at that time could not tell the difference. Similar to now, people often can't tell different Asian, ethnicities apart. Right. I found actual newspaper articles where Joseph Pierce was interviewed about the battles, that the United States was having with Japan or the battles that Japan was having. He was asked his opinion on what the Japanese government was doing because he told these reporters he was Japanese and that was really the only clue that I had that he, Was code switching that after the Chinese exclusion Act was passed, he felt like he needed to protect himself and his family and he must have cut off his cue because otherwise, you know, that would've identified him immediately as Chinese. So that went into the book. I think it's a powerful moment, right, where he's doing what he has to do to survive and ensure his protection and his family's safety,   Miko Lee: [00:53:25] You have a, a really interesting background. Just having No really, I mean, having done all these different things and I, you know, I think you have a science background too, right? Can you talk about the times that we're living in right now, the political times that we're living in, where our government is banning books that don't align with certain conservative ideologies, where right now certain words are forbodden suddenly. And can you talk a little bit about how that impacts you as a children's book author?    Andrea Wang: [00:53:59] it is very disheartening and discouraging that the current climate is against, people who look like me or other people of color. And as a children's book author, we are experiencing a huge decrease in the number of teachers and librarians who are asking us to come and visit schools, to talk to students, which is horrible because. These young people are the ones who need to learn from books, right? Knowledge is power. And if we are not keeping them informed, then we are doing them a disservice. I think the attacks on our freedom to read are really unjust. and. personally as an author of color, I understand that books like Worthy may end up on some of these banned book lists because it does talk about racism. but these are the stories that we need now, and I'm going to continue writing these stories about the Hidden History, And to talk about these difficult subjects that I think kids understand on some level. but if they're not reading about it in books, then it's hard to spark a conversation with, educators or adults about it. So I think these books that I'm writing, that many of my friends and other children's book authors are writing are providing that. Sort of gateway to talk about, the topics that are so important right now.    Miko Lee: [00:55:29] Thank you so much for sharing, and thank you so much for being on Apex Express today. We appreciate your voice and the work that you're putting out there in the world. Is there anything else you'd like to say?   Andrea Wang: [00:55:39] you know, there's so much to say, I think just to. Stand up for what we all believe in and to, I encourage people to stand up for their intellectual freedom and that of their children.   Miko Lee: [00:55:56] Thank you, Andrea Wang. I appreciate hearing from you and hearing your voice and seeing your work out there in the world.    Andrea Wang: [00:56:03] Thank you so much, Miko. It was a pleasure.   Miko Lee: [00:56:05] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 5.29.25 AAPI Children's Books appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Spring Fund Drive. Brian Edwards-Tiekert speaks with photographer and author Josh Jackson, an advocate for public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Through his Forgotten Lands Project, he employs storytelling and visual narratives to inspire engagement with California's unknown landscapes. His latest book is The Enduring Wild: A Journey Into California's Public Lands. To support our mission and receive Josh Jackson's book The Enduring Wild as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).   The post Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Josh Jackson on California's Little-Known Public Wilderness appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episodes of Our World As We See It and Education Today are preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Spring Fund Drive. C.S. Soong speaks with Norma Wong about her book When No Thing Works: A Zen and Indigenous Perspective on Resilience, Shared Purpose, and Leadership in the Timeplace of Collapse. To support our mission and receive Norma Wong's book When No Thing Works as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).   The post Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Norma Wong on a Zen and Indigenous Perspective appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Spring Fund Drive. Liam O'Donoghue speaks with renown geographer and author Richard Walker about his view of cities as living organisms and the role industry plays in development and ongoing health of cities. This live event which took place in Berkeley, California on March 27, 2025. To support our mission and receive Richard Walker's book Pictures of a Gone City: Tech and the Dark Side of Prosperity in the San Francisco Bay Area as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).   The post Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Richard Walker on the Role of Industry in Building Cities appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee celebrates AAPINH Month by interviewing Filmmakers: Sara Kambe Holland, Alleluiah Panis, and Kyle Casey Chu, also known as Panda Dulce. We also cover a bunch of AAPINH month events happening throughout the Bay Area.   Calendar of Events Community Calendar May 3 2-6pm Daly City AAPI Fest celebrating local Asian American & Pacific Islander culture in Daly City and the Greater San Francisco Bay Area     May 10 10am-12pm PT Our Heritage 5K 2025  a FREE, family-friendly 5K fun walk/run honoring the rich history and contributions of Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in San Francisco. This scenic route winds through the heart of the city, passing by over 16+ historic AAPI landmarks—featuring goodies, resources, and fun facts about its cultural significance. Expect cheer stations, photo ops, sweet treats, and entertainment along the route to keep the energy high! May 10th is also AAPI Mental Health Day! The Our Wellness Festival, will celebrate mental health, community, and joy. The festival will feature family-friendly activities, carnival-style games, music, dancing, wellness resources, and more! May 23 at 5:30 pm – 8:30 pm Asian American and Pacific Islander LGBTQ2S+ Mixer NJAHS Peace Gallery 1684 Post Street, San Francisco Children's Fairyland in Oakland, and Stanford's Asian American studies department host a series of events throughout the month that we will post in the show notes for you to check out.  Bay Area Public Libraries AAPI Month Oakland public libraries feature reading lists for all ages, a grab and grow seedling kit and events like watermelon kimchi making!San Francisco Public Libraries There will be events for all ages at Library locations throughout the City, including free author talks, book clubs, film screenings, crafts, food programs and musical and dance performances. San Jose Public libraries host a series of events with a highlights being Tapa Cloth making on May 6 and Vegan Filipino Cooking with Astig Vegan on May 7 Berkeley public libraries   CAAMFest 2025 United States of Asian America Through June 1    Transcript: Filmmakers Exploring Boundaries   Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:57] Welcome to Apex Express and happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Even though the Trump administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion. Here at Apex Express and KPFA, we believe in lifting up people's voices. And tonight on Apex Express, we are focusing on Asian American filmmakers exploring boundaries. Host Mika Lee talks with filmmakers, creators, writers Sarah Kambe Holland, Alleluiah Panis, and Kyle Casey Chu, also known as Panda Dulce. Join us on Apex Express.    Miko Lee: [00:01:51] Welcome, Sarah Kambe Holland, the amazing young filmmaker, writer, director, here to talk about your very first film, egghead and Twinkie. Welcome to Apex Express.    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:04] Thanks so much for having me.   Miko Lee: [00:02:06] So first I'm gonna start with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. And my first question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:19] Oh wow. What a great question. , I think that I represent my family and my heritage. I'm mixed, so I'm half Japanese and half British. I grew up partially in Japan and partially in the States. I feel like those experiences, my family, they make up who I am and the stories that I wanna tell.   Miko Lee: [00:02:41] And what legacy do you carry with you?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:45] I think the legacy of my family, my grandparents on both sides have overcome so much, and, , they're a big inspiration to me. Funny enough, my grandparents play kind of a secret role in this film. My grandparents on my mom's side were incarcerated in the Japanese American camps. My grandmom, my British side overcame a lot of adversity as well in her life. , I think that's the legacy that I carry.    Miko Lee: [00:03:09] Thank you. Tell me a little more, what secret role do your grandparents play in the film?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:03:14] all my grandparents have always been very supportive of, my art and my filmmaking. But my grandparents on my mom's side, they passed away ahead of the making of this film. And I inherited my grandfather's car. And that car is the car in the movie that, Egghead Twinkie drive cross country. So I like to think that this is their way of supporting me. I think that they would get a kick out of the fact that their car is like a main character in the film,    Miko Lee: [00:03:41] literally carrying you on your journey. I had so much fun watching the film. Can you share with our audience a little bit about what the film is about and what inspired you to create this?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:03:52] So the film is called Egghead and Twinkie, and it's about this mixed Asian teenage lesbian named Twinkie who's coming out and her best friend Egghead, who unfortunately is in love with her and she does not feel the same. , and they end up going on this cross country road trip to meet Twinkie Online love interest IRL for the very first time. So it's kind of like a buddy comedy road trip movie. Coming of age queer story, , and it's one that's very personal to me, I think is a mixed Asian queer person. This was a story I was drawn to tell because it was a story that I didn't really see on screen when I was growing up.   Miko Lee: [00:04:30] Can you talk to me a little bit more about the use of the name Twinkie, which for many folks in the A API community is seen as a slur, and I know she talks about it a little in the film, but can you share more how you came up with that?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:04:44] Yes, it's a very nuanced thing and it's something I was kind of nervous to tackle, especially like in a comedy film. , but really with the creation of Twinkie's character, , I feel like she's going on this journey to embrace herself as a lesbian, as a gay woman, but then also I think that she's searching for herself as a mixed Asian person. I feel like within the Asian American community, if you're raised here in the US or if you're mixed or if you're adopted, I think that there can be this feeling of not feeling Asian enough. I think the word Twinkie was something that was kind of weaponized against her. Like, oh, you know, you're not Asian enough, you're a Twinkie. And her way of coping with that is to kind of reclaim that word and kind of own that. As her own name.    Miko Lee: [00:05:31] Thank you so much for sharing. I read online that this is the very first feature film to be crowdfunded on TikTok. Can you talk a little bit about, I know your background is in as a social media creator. Can you talk about that journey from social media creator to filmmaker?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:05:51] Yes. Yeah. TikTok and social media was such a big part of getting this film made. Uh, so for myself, yeah. I was a YouTuber before I was a filmmaker. I should be clear, I wasn't like PewDiePie or anything like that. I had like 40,000 followers. Um, but for me at that time when I was like 15, 16, that felt like the whole world. Um, and I think that YouTube was really my first introduction to. Storytelling, but also to making friends with people through the internet. And that ended up being a really big influence on this film because Twinkie is traveling cross country to meet a girl that she meets online. And I think that that is such a common story nowadays. Like people make friends online all the time. Um, and the ways that we find love and community has changed.Because of the internet. Um, so it felt very appropriate that we turned to TikTok turned to social media as a means to raise money for this film. Uh, we did a whole targeted crowdfunding campaign on TikTok and we raised over $20,000 from a lot of strangers that I will never meet, but I owe a lot of thanks to.   Miko Lee: [00:06:53] So now that the film has been going out to different festivals and being screened at different places, have any of those that participated in the crowdfund, have you met any of those kind of anonymous supporters?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:07:05] Yes. And that was crazy. it was awesome. We screened it over 40 festivals all around the world. Our international premiere was at the British Film Institute in London. And it was at that screening that someone raised their hand during the q and a and they were like, I just wanted you to know that I backed your movie, uh, and I found you on TikTok. And that just blew my mind that someone on the other side of the world, you know, had donated whatever, you know, 10, 20 bucks to making this thing a reality.   Miko Lee: [00:07:31] Oh, I love that when the anonymous becomes real like a person in front of you that you can actually meet. How fun. I'm wondering if your use of animation is, , been influenced by your social media background.    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:07:45] Not really. Actually. I think the animation part of this film is just because I'm a total nerd. I really love animation, I love comics. And so that kind of bled into Twinkies character. You know, she loves comics, she wants to be an animator. And, uh, I think I've always been interested in the idea of combining 2D animation with live action footage. I feel like that's something that we see a lot in like children's movies or, um.Music videos, but it's not something that you really see in like, feature films all that often. So I was kind of excited to explore that, and it was a really fun collaboration with myself and our lead animator, Dylan Ello, who did most of the animations in the movie.   Miko Lee: [00:08:28] Oh, thank you for that. I, I, it was very delightful. Um, I'm wondering, because we're, our world right now is incredibly complicated and so conflicted. How do you feel filmmaking can make a difference?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:08:44] I feel like art is more important now than ever because I see even in just this film's journey how art literature and movies, it can change people's minds and they don't even realize that their minds are changing.I think especially with this film, 'cause it's so lighthearted and funny and silly, you'd be like, oh, it's just, you know, a good laugh and that's it. But, but not really. I've seen this film. Open doors and open conversations. And I think that that's really my hope is that maybe, you know, parents who have a queer kid and they're not sure what to do about it, maybe they'll watch this film and they'll be able to talk to their kid about things that maybe they're afraid to talk about. I think that art really has the power to, to change people's minds.    Miko Lee: [00:09:29] Have you experienced that with somebody that has actually seen your film, that you've had a conversation with them where they walked away, changed from seeing it?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:09:38] Well, on a very personal level, um, my parents, uh, are conservative and I think when I first came out to them, it was an adjustment for sure. Um, I. When I initially kind of pitched the idea of Egghead and Twinkie to them years, years ago, uh, as a short film, they were confused. They were like, why do you wanna make this film about being gay? Like, why do you have to make everything about being gay? And that's not really what it was. I just wanted to tell this story.  And it's been such an amazing journey to see my parents like fully embrace this movie. Like they are egghead and Twinkie biggest fans. They might love this movie more than me. Uh, so that has been really amazing to be able to kind of talk to them about queer issues in my identity through the making of this movie.   Miko Lee: [00:10:24] I love that. So let our audience know how they can see your film, egghead and Twinkie.    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:10:31] So Egg and Twinkie is coming out on streaming platforms on April 29th. It'll be on Apple tv, Amazon Prime, uh, any video on demand streaming platform in North America.    Miko Lee: [00:10:43] Yay. And Sarah, what are you working on next?    Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:10:46] Oh boy, have a big question. Uh, I have a few screenplays in the works, one of which is a time traveling lesbian rom-com. So, uh, I'm waiting for when I get the big bucks so I can make my first period piece.    Miko Lee: [00:10:59] Love it. Sounds fun. , thank you so much for sharing with us. It was such a delight to see your film and I look forward to seeing more of your work.   Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:11:08] Thanks so much for having me, Miko. This was great.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:11:11] Listen to Kushimoto Bushi by Minyo crusaders, a Japanese cumbia band    MUSIC   Welcome back. This is the Powerleegirls on apex express, and that was Kushimoto Bushi by Minyo Crusaders    Miko Lee: [00:15:24] Welcome, Alleluia Panis, the Executive Director of Kularts to Apex Express.    Alleluia Panis: [00:15:30] Thank you. I'm so honored to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:15:34] I wanna talk with you about your film, but first I wanna start with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. And that is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Alleluia Panis: [00:15:49] Wow, that's deep who are my people? My people is my community. And so it is here in, in the diaspora, Filipino Americans, Asian Americans, and folks of color. And then of course the indigenous people in the Philippines. . What I carry with me and continues to inspire me on the daily is the knowing that we have been here for a long time. Our ancestors have survived eons of whether it's, good times and bad times. And so that keeps me going.   Miko Lee: [00:16:28] Thank you so much for sharing. you have been working in the field for a long time. You're really, , a trailblazer in terms of putting Filipino arts on the map and really lifting up the culture. Can you talk about your new film Memories of Mindanao, where that came from, what it's all about?   Alleluia Panis: [00:16:49] Is a leg of, , Tribo tour, which began in 2002. But actually inspired by my first trip to, , then the wild and being with in 1989 , and, , basically traveling and. Setting myself and my, my, my music and dance company at the time to just be with indigenous people. ,and how profoundly that particular experience really impacted me. For years I've been wanting to like, how can I bring this? Experience or share the experience with other diasporic folks. Fortunately I was able to connect with Carlo Abeo in the Philippines, who's been my tour manager, in 2001. And then in 2002 we embarked on the first, Tribo tour.   Miko Lee: [00:17:50] So this was an effort to really share this powerful kind of artistic travel journey with more folks. Is that right?    Alleluia Panis: [00:17:57] Yes. And it's actually beyond artistic. It's really about recognizing something deeper, right? Because our history of colonization is pretty intense. 500 years and or is it 400 years? Give or take, a century. And so there are a lot of things that had been co-opted. It has been erased, it has been gaslit. And fortunately, I feel like within the culture of the archipelago, there are, and even those. That are, of the, what is considered the colonized people or the Christianized people. there are practices that exist today that might have a different name, um, or but actually is indigenous and so, and only. Could I say that because I was able to really experience and be with folks and, uh, and it's years, you know, it's years of kind of like assessing and looking at you know, different, uh, practices. And so that is so I don't know. It's beyond gratifying. It's connecting. I mean, it seems so cliche. It's connecting with something so deep, you know, it's like connecting to, you know, to Mother Earth in, in that way our, our Mama Ocean. And recognizing yourself that, that you are bigger and have, and has agency, you know, in terms of just. What you are connected to, uh, what we are connected to. Um, and so it's, it's it, of course within the cultural practices, which is artistic practices that we see that connection.    Miko Lee: [00:19:40] You were looking at, the impact of colonization and how arts and culture has really spoke to that or fought back against that in the Philippines. Can you talk about bringing that over to our colonized United States and how you see that playing out?    Alleluia Panis: [00:19:58] Well, I think first of all as, um, as folks of color. And as former subjects of the United States, you know, 40 years of the US and still, still, um, you know, in some ways kind of soft power over the people of the Archipelago. It's, it's really, um, first and foremost knowing or getting that sense of connection and confidence and, um, self-identity. That leads, that would lead us to create, um, in the diaspora. And so what, what this pro with this project, this particular program does and, and I continue to prove it with so many folks, is that it's really. Kind of finding yourself, I mean, that, that seems so cliche and knowing your place in the world and how you are connected so deeply despite all the, you know, like all the brainwashing that you don't know anything. Everything is, uh, you know, everything that, that, that, um, that exists in terms of the cultural practices of the arch of the people of the archipelago are borrowed or, or, um. Basically borrowed or taken from another culture, um, really kind of diminishes that, that colonized thinking. And so I think the power of it is finding your stepping into your own power in this way. Um, and, and, um, you know, it is also not just the current, like in, in once lifetime do you get that abuse or trauma, but it's also all the. You know, the, the, the inheritance from our, you know, from our parents, from our grandparents, right? Great. Passed down the generation and, um, oftentimes construed as the real deal, unt true. And so, aside from the form. Aside from, um, the practices, because this trip is really a little, is is focused more on not learning or like, you know, we don't go to learn like dance music or. Weaving or, you know, design or anything like that. Yes, that happens. We do, we do have workshops, but you know, it's not like it's, it's more like opening the ice of each, you know, individual. I. To the, to the, the whole, the whole thing. What, what is the, the presence of nature is, are they water people? Well, how does the water impact the cultural practices and therefore the artistic practices, um, and understanding sort of like, oh, they, they do that kind of steps with the, you know, flat feet or whatever. Because the sound of the bamboo slats is just. Amazing, you know, uh, under their feet. And so it's not so much that I'm gonna learn, you know, x, y, Z dance or x, y, z music, music or gongs, or, but it's more like w. Through those practices, how do we see the people, how do they mirror our own existence? And what, what we can remember really is remembering, um, what my, what, what we have forgotten or what we know it's true, but we're not sure. So I dunno if I'm answering your question. It's a roundabout response.    Miko Lee:[00:23:26]  I feel like you're talking about how we step into our ancestral wisdom and power.    Alleluia Panis: [00:23:33] Correct.    Miko Lee: [00:23:33] And I'm wondering if you can expand on that,, to talk a little bit more about this time of oligarchy we are living in, which is really built in colonization. How do we both as artists use our superpowers to fight back against that and then encourage other people? How do we use our artist beings to encourage other people to fight back against the world that we're living in right now?  Alleluia Panis: [00:24:00] One of the most powerful impact on me , in experiencing, indigenous practices and culture is the practice of spirituality, the rituals, the ceremonies. There's one specific ceremony from Ana as a magana on ceremony, um, that really, It was just such a profound experience in opening up, my senses and my sense of connection to something larger than this. And, and the EPO and, um, there's several, um. Ritual practices with different names. It's basically similar, uh, practice, uh, is the connection to the five elements and the basic, um, um, and fundamental elements of life. You know, water, earth, wind, fire, and the darkness. The, there's a transcendence. Um. And that that discovery is a, or that connection, um, is something that's, it sounds really woo woo, right? I mean, um, but it really becomes kind of a, a, an experience, an embodiment experience, a belief in your own kind of intuition, your gut feeling. My, uh, my. Um, response, you know, to it, a physical response. And, um, that, that's become like a, a guide for, for everything that I do. And so, um, to me that that is the grounding that, um, has allowed me to continue the work that that. That I've been doing, continue living, period. And so it's really, I think the, a matter of really kind of like, knowing yourself, it just sounds all so cliche, you know? And, and, the power of, Really understanding that you have or I have a depth of connection, that I can draw from in terms of energy and spirit and love, that is beyond kind of the physical, but also the physical. And so for me, that sense of knowing. Is what is allowing me to continue doing what I do despite all the, you know, challenges and difficulties and, you know, the insanity of these times or any time. and having kind of that grounding, I mean, you, you, the, the, clarity, is everything. it allows me to. follow what seems to be the correct route to wherever I was going. it doesn't mean that it's, it's, I'm, I'm not working on it, you know, but I'm also not, not pushing in a way that, you know, I'm, I'm gonna make you believe in me and I'll, you know, like, sort of like, I will tell you what is the right thing and, and, and I will make you, um, agree with me. It, it's, it's not that. Um, I is, I dunno. Is that making any sense? Do you have any other,    Miko Lee: [00:27:24] you totally make sense to me. I'm wondering how people can find out how, how can people find out more about your film and about all of your work?    Alleluia Panis: [00:27:34] Oh, sure. people can find out about, my work and the film through, um, the website. It's, uh, KulArts SF dot org and, most of, if not all of my work, uh, and the work of others, are actually on there. There's a lot of information there. the, the film is gonna be shown at the Los Angeles Asian Pacific, film Festival May 3rd at, uh, a MC. Eight or 14 or is it in, Monterey Park and, folks can actually just find that information on our website as well.    Miko Lee: [00:28:13] And what would you like audience to walk away from your film with an understanding of?   Alleluia Panis: [00:28:21] I want the audience to feel the. Power of being there in TT T is the southernness most islands of, of the Philippines. And, not too many people actually go there. If you have seen the Sam Baja, um, you know, divers, uh, where they can dive for, I think they can stay from five to 15 minutes underwater without any, you know, oxygen or assistance. These are, these are the people who, who, uh, these islands belong to. and as usual, their, you know, their live livelihood is being challenged by everything that's happening in the world. And what the, the film itself, itself, is really trying to put, put the audience within the, you know, like the, I guess the, the shoe of the there and how, you know, their experiences. there's not a lot of explanation to it because we really want it to be a more visceral experience. for the audience,    Miko Lee: [00:29:22] is there anything else you'd like to share with us?    Alleluia Panis: [00:29:26] Let's keep on going. Let's, you know, we, we all, we all need to be in community to uplift each other and keep hope alive.    Miko Lee: [00:29:38] Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing a little bit more about your film and about your work and your connection to the ancestors and the need to move forward.   Alleluia Panis: [00:29:47] Appreciate you. Thank you, Miko.   Miko Lee: [00:29:51] Welcome Kyle Casey, Chu, also known as Panda Dulce to Apex Express.    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:29:57] Hi so much for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:29:59] We're so happy to have you back here, onto Apex Express Land and you have a bunch of new things happening, not just a new film, but also a new book. First off, I'm gonna just start with a personal question, which I ask everyone. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:30:16] Ooh, that's a juicy one. Um, my people, I would say my people are the weirdos and the art freaks of the world. Uh, queer and trans people, Asian Americans, queer and trans Asian Americans, people of color, people from the Bay Area. Um, people who have noticed the boxes that they're in and are pushing the walls and the boundaries of that. I feel like these are the people who really inspire me the most. In terms of the legacy I bring, I am a fourth generation Chinese American, uh, queer and trans femme person living in the San Francisco Bay area where I was born and raised.   Miko Lee: [00:30:56] Thanks so much for sharing. , first let's start with just finding out more about your film, which was based on a true story called After What Happened at the Library. This was a national story, I remember hearing about it, but for folks that don't know, can you describe the real incident that inspired the film?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:31:14] So, I'm one of the founders of Drag Story Hour, which is exactly what it sounds like., drag queens reading stories to, , children and their families and libraries, bookstores and schools. In 2022, I took a gig in Pride Month at San Lorenzo Public Library, , where I was doing a drag story hour and the Proud Boys stormed in. They called me a tranny, a groomer and an it. They wore shirts saying, kill your local pedophile and I had to retreat to the back and lock myself in the back room. They scoured the premises looking for me. , the authorities showed up and didn't get any of their names or information, um, and just. Dispersed them. And after the incident, I came back to the reading room where the children and families were there, but shaken and I completed the reading.    Miko Lee: [00:32:05] Incredibly traumatic. What happened after that in real life?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:32:10] It's funny that you, uh, because the short film is called After What Happened at the Library, uh, for a reason because I feel like it's natural as social creatures for humans to focus on the incident itself. We want to approach people with empathy and we want to, really put ourselves in their shoes, uh, to kind of be there as a support for them. What I wasn't prepared for was the gauntlet of media attention, how people would be coming out of the woodwork to ask me about the situation. They would send gushing praise, hate mail, death threats, love letters, care packages, and this wave of attention. Almost added to the overwhelm of the experience and the fact that I had suddenly become a figure and a lightning rod in a culture war when I just wanted to read a book in a library. 'cause that's what I was doing. Um, and not only this, but in the coverage of the event. Because the authorities were so slow to act on this and only started investigating it as a hate crime after it blew up on Instagram and they suddenly felt the heat of media attention. Um, I felt the, my only recourse was to go to the media and was to talk, and especially as a writer and a storyteller, I felt I needed to kind of sound the alarm because it was pride month.  This was the first, this was the inciting incident of a national, even international anti-D drag wave of right wing extremism. Um, it was a couple days later that the oath keepers were found planning some kind of resistance, like violent insurrection in before Ohio Pride. And so I would talk to these journalists and. I felt in the beginning I trusted them because, you know, I trusted that they wanted to get the word out, that they had the same intentions that I did in protecting my people. And what I found instead was that they kind of almost, they tried to elicit the most emotional response from me, which often involved asking me to relive the most excruciating aspects of that time and that experience. So I had to go back and revisit it over and over again. And when the stories actually came out, I'd found that my story was edited to suit another preconceived formula that they had already pitched a certain idea for how the story was would go. That painted me as this static monolithic victim. And they would just plug in one tearful soundbite and the rest of the story, they could just say whatever they wanted with.And there's a certain violence in that. There's a certain. Greater injustice to going through something like that, number one. But number two, telling your story and having that be distorted to suit other political aims or to, you know, buttress a call for public safety. And that specific dynamic of the direct aftermath of notoriety is what the short film gets at.   Miko Lee: [00:35:11] Oh so you're taking back your own story.    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:35:14] Absolutely. So after what happened at the library, the short film is a very much a radical reclamation of my own voice and my own story. Um, prying it back from the hands of the media and telling it on my own terms.    Miko Lee: [00:35:26] Thank you for that. And how has it been received   Kyle Casey Chu: [00:35:29] So far it's been received very well. The short film World premiered at Florida Film Festival in Orlando. Received a special jury prize for courageous voice in a time of great need, which is incredible. It's our first screening and we already got an award, which is so exciting. It just screened at SF Film on April 23rd as part of the shorts block. SF film is an Academy Award qualifying festival, and it is going to screen again at Can Fest, one of my favorite local festivals, the world's largest Asian and Asian American film showcase it's screening on Friday, May 9th at Kabuki and tickets are on sale.   Miko Lee: [00:36:11] Thank you for that. And can you tell us about your new book? This is very exciting. You have a coming of age story, the Queen Bees of Tybee County. Can you tell us about your book?   Kyle Casey Chu: [00:36:22] Absolutely. When it rains, it pours in creative worlds. I had a lot of irons on the fire and it just so happened that all of them were exhibiting or debuting or hitting shelves in the same week of April, which is last week. The Queen Bees of Tybee County is my debut novel. It's middle grade, so for ages eight through 12, though like a Pixar movie, it's for all ages really. Um, and it is a hopeful drag coming out story about a queer Chinese American seventh grade basketball star. Derek Chan, who is unceremoniously shipped off to his grandma Claudia's in rural Georgia, and she is volunteering for a local pageant. And so he. Explores his queer identity and his love for drag via Southern pageant culture.    Miko Lee: [00:37:09] Ooh, do we see a film of this in the future?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:37:12] Actually, Queen Bees of Tybee County was optioned by Lambert Productions, which put on the Hardy Boys on Hulu. So it is on its way to becoming a TV show if every, if all the stars align, it'll be on TVs in the uk. Fingers and toes crossed for that.    Miko Lee: [00:37:27] Amazing. I'm looking forward to that. Can we pull ourselves out a little bit and talk about the times that we're living in right now and how artists use our super powers to fight back against the oligarchy that we're living in?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:37:43] We all know, or perhaps should know that the beginnings of fascism involve suppressing intellectuals and artistic voices, increasing police presence and trying to maintain a stiff and consistent lid on the voices of the people. And so this type of suppression is happening right now. There are book bans across the country. , there are state and federal efforts legislatively to curtail the rights of trans kids and trans athletes, and Intellectuals, diplomats and scholars are all being expelled or suppressed, and I think something that I've learned is that, and it sounds really cheesy, but that quote is so real where it's like being brave isn't the absence of fear, but it's doing things in spite of it. I know it feels very scary to speak out right now, but now is the exact time to speak out because any. Ground that is seated cannot be taken back. And so holding of the line by way of protest, by way of publication, by way of dissenting is how we crack this. The armor of fascism.    Miko Lee: [00:38:55] And can you talk a little bit about the moment of joy or celebrating joy within the context of the strife that we're living in? I bring that up because , you've given me much joy as part of the rice rocketts and a lot of the work that you do. So I wonder if you could just talk about what does joy mean in the moment like this?    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:39:16] Yeah. I think. I have a background in social work and one of the first things that we learned is this is hard work. It is hard to always start on your back foot and to have to argue your own humanity and justify your existence as an artist or as a person. I found myself doing that when coverage of the library incident was happening and. One of the things that they tell you is the way that you do your best work and the way that you best serve your communities is by keeping your own self afloat. And what this means is maintaining a balance. When you have hard work, you also need to reward yourself. You also need to take care of yourself. And I don't think it's enough to just say self-care. You need to expose yourself, and you need to fully embrace the full spectrum of human emotion, which necessarily includes joy. And so. After completing such an intense project, like after what happened at the library, I knew that I needed to engage in something that was hopeful and that really struck the cord of why community is so vital and important, and why social support is integral to all of us thriving. And so the Queen Bees of Tubby County, I was told by a reviewer, and this is my favorite review, they said that it's like Chapel R'S Pink Pony Club. If it were a book. Um, and I'm going with that 'cause I love that. But this story is really just about hope. It's about friendship, it's about, it's about dancing towards the future we want. And I don't think it is enough for us to react. I don't think it's enough for us to strike down. Terrible and horrifying regimes. We also must have a vision for the future that includes ourselves thriving and enjoying ourselves. And I think a part of that practice for me is making art and scaffolding a vision for the future that is positive.    Miko Lee: [00:41:20] And what would you like people to walk away from after either reading your book or seeing your short film?   Kyle Casey Chu: [00:41:29] I think after seeing the short film. What this gets at is whenever there's a flashpoint of a culture war and it's localized on one person, whenever a culture war is personified in one singular person, like for example, ma Moon kil. There's only so much of his life that we get to see, and it's through the headlines and this viral moment of like a flash on the pan. And I want people to realize that the way that you interact with these people in that fleeting moment is going to stick with them long after this moment of notoriety passes. And. To be conscientious and aware of what impact you're bringing to that person because it may just be a moment or a blip in your feed, but the impact is enduring for the person who's living it. And I also want us to be critical of how we consume trauma and violence in the media, and to ask ourselves if. We really, truly need to get all the details if we really, truly need to be put, put that victim in the position of reliving their experience just so we can relive it for a moment. Whereas they will have to relive it for the rest of their lives. And I think survivor narratives and victim narratives are way more messy and complicated and sometimes funny than people give it credit for or realize. And to realize that when you are reading something. That is just one dimension in one shade. Uh, yeah. So that was a lot, sorry. But, um, the other thing is for the Queen Bees of Tybee County. And the reason why I wanted to end on that is because it's uplifting is as dark as the world can be. It can also be as dazzling and bright and hopeful, and that the future that we are fighting for is worth fighting for. And we need to remind ourselves of that. Especially in times like these, and I know it might seem counterintuitive for us to celebrate or to be around each other when it feels earth shatteringly bleak, but it is essential to our survival, and don't be afraid to embrace that.   Miko Lee: [00:44:00] Kyle, thank you so much. Kyle, Casey Chu, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. I encourage people to check the film out and the book out and we appreciate chatting with you.    Kyle Casey Chu: [00:44:11] Thanks so much.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:44:14] Kyle's film will be showcased at Cam Fest, the nation's largest showcase for new Asian American and Asian films, which runs from May 8th to 11th in San Francisco at a time when it feels particularly fraught to express stories from communities of color. Cam is doing what we've done for over 40 years, sharing films from Asian America to a wide array of audiences. It says, Cam's, director of programs, Dawn Young. Watching these stories in a theater full of friends and neighbors is an opportunity to laugh and cry, and ultimately to celebrate human experiences that transcend bounds. This year's festival will return to the A MC Kabuki in San Francisco's Japan town for opening night, and a total of four days of screenings in the historic neighborhood that is undergoing its own resurgence with new restaurants, cafes, and boutiques, highlighting both traditional and youth oriented culture. The Roxy Theater will also host three days of screenings. Cam Fest continues to strengthen ties with other local arts institutions with the Asian Art Museum hosting the Cam Fest gala. Following the opening night film on Thursday May 8th and SF M Om a opening the Phyllis Wa Theater for Mother's Day programming on Sunday, May 10th. Turning a lens on history, whether it's the end of the Vietnam War or the trailblazing women in the Bay Area, offers a chance to reconsider the stories through which we come to understand ourselves. Says Cam Fest program Manager Del Holton, ranging from intimate narratives of family and memory to experimental work that bends the conventions of storytelling. These films illuminate the many perspectives of Asian America.    CAAM Fest 2025 wraps up on Mother's Day with dedicated events that highlight strength and visionary artistry of Asian American women. You can also catch my sister Jalena Keane-Lee's film Standing Above the Clouds at 5:00 PM at the Kabuki. Honoring Mothering also includes celebrating the nurturing of community and pioneering of aesthetics. Cam's final day reflects on the contributions of Asian American women's work while looking to the future of storytelling. Another major multimedia arts, dance and music festival to check out is the annual United States of Asian America which runs through June 1st at venues around the Bay Area. This year's theme Critical Refuge asks us to reflect on our journey as immigrants, refugees, and generations of descendants and or mixed raced people in the diaspora as we seek necessary sanctuary within ourselves and in our communities in times of unrest and uncertainty. The festival will honor a API Arts and Culture, reflecting on where we have been, where we are now, and what our collective future holds, while acknowledging our roots as immigrants, refugees, and mixed race descendants. Also check out the 42nd annual Himalayan Fair in Berkeley's Live Oak Park happening May 17th and 18th. There will be Himalayan Food, handicrafts, music, and Dance. There are so many events happening in celebration of Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Check out our show notes for links to all the wheelchair accessible events In addition to the films we featured tonight, camp Fest and United States of Asian America, there is also May 3rd, two to 6:00 PM daily city AAPI fest celebrating local Asian American and Pacific Islander culture in daily city in the greater San Francisco Bay area.    May 10th, 10:00 AM to 12:00 PM Our heritage, 5K 2025. A free family friendly, 5K fun walk slash run. Honoring the rich history and contributions of Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in San Francisco. This scenic route winds through the heart of the city. Passing by over 16 plus historic A API Landmarks featuring goodies, resources, and fun facts about its cultural significance. Expect cheer stations, photo ops, sweet treats, and entertainment along the route to keep the energy high. May 10th is also a API Mental Health Day. The Our Wellness Festival will celebrate mental health, community and joy. The festival will feature family friendly activities, carnival style games, music, dancing, wellness resources, and more. May 23rd at 5:30 PM to 8:30 PM Asian American and Pacific Islander, LGBT Q2 s plus Mixer, NJAHS, peace Gallery 1684 Post Street in San Francisco. Children's Fairyland in Oakland and Stanford's Asian American Studies apartment will also host a series of events throughout the month that we will post in the show notes for you to check out in Bay Area Public Library News. Oakland Public Libraries feature reading lists for all ages, a grab and grow seedling kit and events like Watermelon Kimchi making. San Francisco Public Libraries will have events for all ages at library locations throughout the city, including free author talks, book clubs, film screenings, crafts, food programs, and musical and dance performances. Highlights for adults include the launch of Corky Lee's Asian America at the main library on May 23rd. The new book features over 200 breathtaking photos celebrating the history and cultural impact of the Asian American Social Justice movement. We've covered Corky Lee's work in multiple previous Apex episodes.    Additionally, four members of the Asian American Journalist Association, AAJA, who cover the Asian American and Pacific Islander News beat will discuss how authentic local reporting happens, important stories they've reported recently, and how having reporters dedicated to the BEAT impacts the A API community on May 8th, moderated by the interim president of the AAJA-SF Bay Area chapter Harry Mock. The panel features Ko Lyn Chang from the San Francisco Chronicle, Han Lee from the San Francisco Standard, and Ravi Kapoor, CEO of Dia, TV on May 25th. The library partners with the Chinese Cultural Center of San Francisco to welcome Curtis Chin, author of everything I Learned, I learned in a Chinese restaurant for a book talk and library popup. For youth on May 25th, join June Jo Lee Food ethnographer and award-winning children's book author for a kimchi demo. Read aloud and krautchy making activity. Experience a read aloud of New Picture Storybooks for Children and participate in a drawing workshop on comics with illustrators mini fan and Sophie Dialo on May 23rd at Excelsior Branch Library. Katie Kwan, who has been featured on Apex dives into the world of comics and zines through the lens of an Asian American artist and educator, and teaches the community how to make their own comics and zines at multiple locations throughout May. San Jose Public Libraries host a series of events with highlights being top of cloth making on May 6th and vegan Filipino cooking with Aztec Vegan on May 7th. Once again, happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month from us at Apex Express. Please do checkout CAAM Fest. May 8th through 11th in San Francisco. If you get the chance and you'll be able to see Kyle's film. As well as many other incredible AAPI, histories and stories. You can check out all of that community calendar info in our show notes, as well as information on all of the guests you heard from tonight.   Miko Lee: [00:51:55] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.        The post APEX Express – 5.1.25 – Filmmakers Exploring Boundaries appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – April 24, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Important Links [URGENT] ICE Is targeting Nepali-speaking Bhutanese Americans: Learn more Asian Refugees United: Website  |  Instagram Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms:  Instagram  | Spotify |  Youtube Minjoona Music instagram | spotify Transcript: Cheryl Truong: Hey everyone. You're tuned into APEX Express at 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF Fresno, and online at kpfa.org. This is your host, Cheryl, here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to start with some important context. This conversation was recorded a few months ago before the recent and deeply distressing wave of ice [00:01:00] enforcement targeting the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community. Since March 26, over 20 Nepali Bhutanese refugees have been deported. Many without legal representation and some moved between detention centers so quickly that they couldn't even contact their family or attorneys. The fear, disruption and trauma that is being inflicted is real and ongoing and raises serious concerns about due process. This is part of a larger ICE operation that is already detained over 60 Bhutanese Americans. This is a rapidly unfolding crisis, and the numbers continue to shift as more people are detained and more impacted families come forward to share their stories. Asian Refugees united is calling for justice, demanding an end to these deportations and immediate protections for their communities. For the latest data and development, or to learn more and take action, please visit Asian Refugees United's website. It will be linked in our show notes.  Now onto today's show. I had the joy and privilege of sitting down with the youth podcast team behind Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms, [00:02:00] a show created by young leaders from Asian refugees United. Asian Refugees united or ARU is a grassroots art and healing leadership center led by and for Asian refugees. We'll hear more about their powerful work later on in the show. One of their programs, the Camp for Emerging Leaders, brings together refugee youth to build community, explore their histories, and grow into their leadership. That's where this podcast team first came together, and they'll of course share more about that as well. They've created something really special and I'm so excited for you all to hear from them. So let's get started. Do you all mind just going around and introducing yourselves? Nawal Rai: Yeah, for sure. Hello, everyone. I'm Nawal Rai. My pronouns are he, him, and I currently live in the East Coast in New Jersey. I'm currently a student studying environmental and urban studies. And right now I currently volunteer and do some work with Asian Refugees United here in the Harrisburg area, and I'm also from the Nepali speaking Bhutanese Refugee community.   Manju Gurung: Hi everyone, I am [00:03:00] Manju Gurung My pronouns are she and hers. I also live and work here in Harrisburg. I work full time as a home care manager but I also do some work with AARU, Asian Refugee United. So glad to be here.  Susmita Tamang: Hi everyone. My name is Susmita Tamang. I am a sophomore majoring in chemistry and I'm from Harrisburg. I interned over the summer at Asian Refugees United and that's how I'm connected. I learned a lot of new skills and got to meet new people. Today we're here mostly to talk about our podcast, Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms, which is under Asian Refugees United.  Sarada Tamang: Hi, everyone. My name is Sarada Tamang. My pronouns are she and her. I currently live in Charlottesville, Virginia, and I'm a student taking classes to enter the Diagnostic Medical Sonography program. And first met my podcast team members through Asian Refugee United's Camp for [00:04:00] Emerging Leadership Program.  Cheryl Truong: Awesome. And our listeners out there, I'm sure you're wondering, what is Asian Refugees United? Nawal, do you want to give us a little introduction on what ARU is about? .  Nawal Rai: Yeah, of course. Again, Cheryl, thank you for having us tonight. Asian Refugees United was born in 2016 in the Bay Area. There was a big influx of Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugees after the third resettlement started for our community.  We had a bunch of community members that resided in Bay Area. And when you look at Bay Area, Bay Area is very diverse. And when you look at the history of Bay Area, there's a lot of social movement and activism that has happened throughout the history. And that kind of gave birth to this organization to unite refugees from different parts of Asia. We as Asian Refugees United here in Harrisburg currently work specifically with Nepali speaking Bhutanese community here since a lot of our population has now moved here. Asian Refugee United started with the focus on connecting our stories with the land that we now [00:05:00] live on and also acknowledging the stolen land that we stand on and also focusing on healing our communities and highlighting the stories of many refugees communities that are often overlooked by the medias and different political agenda. It was a way to find solidarity across communities and also how do we heal. And with that, we use art as a tool to heal and through storytelling where we come together to write stories and perform that stories in front of audience and community members. So we do various different work through Asian Refugees United. Our podcast hamro Katha When the Lotus Bloom is also under Asian Refugees United. So you can tell, there's different things that happens with our org. Cheryl Truong: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's so clear how much storytelling and healing are at the heart of ARU work. And one of the ways that it really shows I think that really shows up is through one of ARU's community building projects. Camp for emerging leaders, which brings together refugee youth from all [00:06:00] over and it's actually where this amazing podcast team first met. Can you all share what that space was like for you? What do you remember feeling or learning during that time?  Susmita Tamang: I can go ahead. By the way, I think the first time we all met each other was way before CAMP for Emerging Leaders, but that's when our idea grew. But Camp for Emerging Leaders is a program that Asian Refugees United organized. It was for the Bhutanese Nepali speaking youth in Harrisburg area, but then it also branched to basically across the states, whoever was available because we met virtually, on Zoom every week or so, and we talked about what it means to have our identity as Bhutanese Nepali, our journey from Nepal to America, we talked about our experiences, acceptance, and then ways of connecting to each other. Anything else that you guys want to mention?  Nawal Rai: Yeah. And with the leadership camp, we also focus on different factors that is focused on our, community health and wellness [00:07:00] and also, identity, belonging and um, education. Manju Gurung: Yeah. We had three groups within camp called wellness, education, and identity and belonging, and then. Under identity and belonging there was also storytelling who did more of art and performance, but we divided into those three groups and we created activities to share with each other when we met in person in August.  That was Camp for Emerging Leaders. We got to learn new skills, such as working with each other, being compassionate towards each other, open minded. Yeah,, it was great.   Cheryl Truong: Oh, whoa. I didn't know that camp was mostly virtual apart from that last in-person session, but that makes a lot of sense now, how Sarada could join from Virginia. Nawal from New Jersey. That's so cool. It really shows just how spread out the Nepali Bhutanese refugee community is and how something like camp can bring folks together across distance, and it makes me think about what that means to feel connected. Do you feel like camp was the first [00:08:00] space where you got to meet other people from your community in that kind of way? Or have you felt that sense of community where you're from, even before camp?  Sarada Tamang: When I first moved to America, within a few years, in the city that I live in right now, we had a bigger population of Bhutanese Nepali people compared to now. Back then we did have a strong community to the point where we would host Losar programs which, can someone explain what that is? Susmita Tamang: Oh yeah, Losar means New Year in Nepali but also in our ethnic language. So in Tamang as well as Gurung and maybe other languages in Nepal. It's somewhat like the Chinese Lunar New Year because it's connected to the, lunar calendar. I'm actually also from Charlottesville. We used to live in the same neighborhood, Sarada and me. And back then, we did have a large community, but then people started moving to Ohio, Harrisburg, and then those areas became more of the [00:09:00] hub for Bhutanese Nepali people. And so, now, I do have some family there, Sarada lives there, some of my cousins live there, but compared to 2011, it's very, very low in terms of population, so they don't really have large events compared to Harrisburg.  Cheryl Truong: What was that like for all of you growing up in such conservative states as refugees? I,  Manju Gurung: Yeah, I can share one. So I moved to Concord, New Hampshire back in 2012 from Nepal. And, even back then when we were talking about communities, we did have a lot of Bhutanese refugees living there by the time that my family moved and settled there.  Unfortunately, one of the incidents that happened to my family was some sort of like… Hate crime? It's like,  Nawal Rai: definitely racial, racial racial hatred.  Sarada Tamang: We just received this in a very hateful letter saying, go back to your country. You don't belong here. All of that. We don't really know exactly what we did to make that [00:10:00] person very upset about us being there. So that was one thing that I had to deal with as a young teenage girl who had just moved into a new city, new country with my family and who barely spoke English back then as well. So that was a very difficult experience to go through. But, with that incident, what came was our community showed up, not just the Bhutanese community back then, but other communities that were from different part of the world, basically, you know. They really showed up and let us know that we were in the right place. We're welcome. And there's no space for hate for anybody. That was really nice. After joining ARU and storytelling group, I was actually able to share that story through performance alongside Nawal, which definitely helped me heal some of those traumas that I had to experience back then. So, yeah, very grateful.  Susmita Tamang: Their performance was amazing. They did it in person during the ARU camp In person [00:11:00] summit. We also had people from our community, like uncles and community leaders there and they were all moved by her performance. Surada and I, we were crying. It was so good. So I'm really glad that one day you were able to share your story. As well as everyone else who performed. Manju Gurung: No, we had cried a lot. I think Nawal knows how many times I cried when we were practicing and rehearsing before. Because we started a couple months before we were meeting up in August for the Emerging Leaders camp session.  I remember being in this room and just sharing my stories and not being able to share all of it because I was just crying and I had to let that emotion out. So I think that really helped me get over that traumatic past. I think that I was holding it on for so long. So that's something. I was very grateful for the storytelling group that, you know, that ARU has created. Nawal Rai: Yeah, the talking circle is part of the process of our storytelling and identity and belonging, so we try to focus on sharing each other's [00:12:00] story and trying to create that space to be vulnerable. And I think that's the work that we're also trying to do with our podcast that is kind of extending toward our community and not just us youth and highlighting a lot of personal stories and our community stories. Cheryl Truong: Thank you for sharing that. I love what you said that in telling our stories, especially when it carries themes of pain, it doesn't just help the audience understand and relate, but it also helps you process and heal too.  We are going to take a quick music break, don't go anywhere  Cheryl Truong: More on the power of storytelling when we return. Next up, you're listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona's newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram [00:13:00] at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We'll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we'll be right back. [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00]  Welcome back. You're tuning in to Apex Express at 94.1 KPFA 89.3 KPFB, 88.1 KFCF Fresno, and online@kpfa.org. Before the break, we were talking about the power of personal storytelling and how sharing our own experiences, especially around identity, can be both healing and powerful. Now I want to dig into how that turned into Hamro Katha: when the Lotus Blooms, what inspired you all to start a podcast? Susmita Tamang: So within our Identity and Belonging group, we divided again to different groups. One was podcast, one was an identity wheel activity we had to do in front of everyone in the summit. So that was when the idea initiated, but then, after we were done with our summit we talked again [00:19:00] altogether. Sarada brought up the idea of podcast because her inspiration drew from the Moth podcast. Sarada Tamang: Yeah. Thank you for filling it in. I was in the subdivision of the podcast from Identity and Belonging, and I thought, we should do something. And I was really moved by the Moth podcast, which I was first introduced to in freshman year of high school. I thought maybe this would be a great way for each person in our community to share their individual stories and experiences so that, you know, it's out there for people to hear and in a way it's preserved because of lack of media coverage in our history,  Susmita Tamang: I agree. Bhutanese Nepali people, not a lot of people even know who we are. And usually when people are like, Oh, where are you from? We say Nepal, but we never explain or go into depth. We're actually not really from Nepal, but at the same time we are. Our parents were born in Bhutan, but then they fled, and therefore, blah, blah, blah. There's not a lot of coverage, so that was definitely one of the main ideas that all of us agreed on. [00:20:00] We want to speak about our issues, about our history, our story, so that people know that we do exist, and acknowledge, us. Cheryl Truong: That's such a great point on the lack of representation and coverage. Sarada, I would love to know more about the Moth and what that is for our listeners out there who don't know what the Moth is.  The moth is where they have stories from thousands of people and it's recorded live. You can hear the audience's reaction to the storyteller as they talk about their journey or talk about a core memory. The stories, they don't have to be serious all the time. Sometimes they're just a funny moment from your life or a little snippet of a journey from your life. I, wanted to incorporate that into our podcast. And one of our team members suggested that maybe we should also have a conversational type of podcast that we all listen to nowadays where we cover important topics in our community that are often overlooked. I hope that, from talking about these issues [00:21:00] as a community, we can grow and connect with each other.  Thank you so much for sharing that. I also wanna take a moment to talk about the history that shaped so many of these stories. For folks who may not know, can you, can one of you share a little bit about the history of the Nepali Bhutanese refugee community?  Nawal Rai: Yeah. We were forced to leave our country, basically stripping our citizenship overnight by the Bhutanese government, and obviously it was not overnight, but it was a progress through putting in policies like one people, one nation act which kind enforced one language, one religion, one cultural costume, one way of practicing and worshipping. That became an issue. A lot of Nepali speaking community, a majority who are Hindu, started to resist toward that policies. Then the people were started to labeled as terrorists and anti nationalist. And so a lot of those caused for us to leave. Some families were given notice to leave by certain dates. And if you're not, then you're either going to be evicted or your house are burned [00:22:00] down or you're forced through violence. Some folks left because of scared of this violence from the government, but also some people after seeing those violence that was perpetuated against the people that resisted. Right. So that kind of became mass migration toward Nepal and that's where we ended up. Some people stayed in India, got stuck in India and in between borders with Bhutan and India and then more than 100, 000 people then resettled in the Seven Refugees Camp in Eastern Nepal.  Cheryl Truong: Yeah. This is a really dark and painful history one that often doesn't get told and, and it really pushes back against that popular narrative of Bhutan being the quote unquote happiest country in the world. You all have touched on how important storytelling is not just for healing, but also for connecting with others and building understanding. So I'm curious when you're all recording, when the Lotus blooms. Who do you imagine listening? Who is the audience you have in mind when you share these stories?  Manju Gurung: I think it is for everybody from our [00:23:00] community or the elders who have not been able to share their stories and struggles that they had to go through. And for our parents people our age and younger than us, the next generation. Anybody who wants to share their stories. It doesn't have to be only about their struggles, if they have something funny or happy stories or anything that they want to write and share, we have created the space for them to use and amplify their voices so we can inspire more people or at least their stories can kind of let others know that, Oh, there are people who have gone through similar stuff like I have, or they have, so yes, it's. I would say it's for everybody.  Susmita Tamang: Yeah, I would say our primary audience is definitely our own community. But also outside of our community, people who support us or don't know about us so that again, our main message that our stories are heard and we are acknowledged. Our identity is Shown and talked about. I think that's also [00:24:00] definitely our target.  Cheryl Truong: And your podcast name is Hamro Kata, When the Lotus Blooms. I totally butchered that. Now, could you tell me the symbolism? What, where does this name come from? Susmita Tamang: We actually made a post on Instagram about our name– when the lotus blooms is our username. We couldn't fit the whole entire podcast name because it was too long. So, yeah, please follow us. Hamro Katha, by the way, means our story in Nepali. That's the direct translation. Our name signifies the perseverance of the Bhutanese Nepali refugees. The lotus. I think many know, it's a symbol of how a lotus prospers from muddy waters. Despite our adverse origins, we continue to flourish by learning and sharing our experiences, trying to inspire others along the way.  Cheryl Truong: What are the kind of stories that you're able [00:25:00] to hear from your elders? Are they open to sharing?  Nawal Rai: Yeah, that's a really good question. And are they open to sharing? I think our community is pretty open to sharing those stories. And I think that also comes from not having anyone to listen for them before, right? At least my grandparents are always like ask me questions. I grew up listening to a lot of the stories from Bhutan and of growing up in Bhutan and the impact of migration. So I have had a lot of those conversations with my grandparents, so they always, at least my grandpa, he can be really buggy with our family because some of our family members doesn't ask him questions like that. Not everyone is interested in the political and the social world like I am in the family. So he's always upset that our uncles or our family members is not asking him enough questions. So from my understanding, there's that part of them that wants to share their stories, because of their struggles that has never been really spoken on and I feel they have never been able to share those stories with anyone. I see that in my family coming out in the structural where he started to be upset with us you know, you guys are [00:26:00] not even trying to learn anything about our stories and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I got you, grandpa.   Susmita Tamang: Without even asking my dad usually when there's a family gathering of any sort, they're always talking about how their life was back in Bhutan. So from their anecdotes and narratives, I'm always able to listen to what happened. I think usually most of the people I've asked about how their life was in Bhutan, or if they have anything they'd like to share, they're always open to sharing and talking more about it.  Sarada Tamang: I was a big yapper growing up when I was small, especially. So I would be like, grandma, where are you from? Oh, what is, what was that? What was this? And so, I would hear a lot of stories from her and I would also hear a lot of stories about Bhutan and even life in camp from my mom and my relatives when they're reminiscing about old times. I heard the quote when your grandparents pass away, it's like a whole library crashes down or something along the lines of [00:27:00] that. Ever since I heard that I was like, oh my goodness I need to know everything that my grandma has been through. Every time we talk on the phone i'm always asking her about Her life and her journey. Cheryl Truong: Wow. This is actually so different from my experience growing up. Like I remember growing up super ashamed. I would tell my parents don't speak Vietnamese. I don't want everyone to hear it I wanted to fit in.  Susmita Tamang: I did experience what you just talked about, trying to assimilate with the American society because early on when we first immigrated here, being in this space where everyone is Very different from you and more of like you're the one who's different from everyone else. You just wanted to hide or how do you say fall into their group so that you're not singled out as a refugee. I did have that crisis where I was ashamed of myself It was only till high school [00:28:00] When I accepted, I am Bhutanese Nepali, I am a refugee, and I'm proud of that, and that's actually when I started asking questions. So, I wasn't always very curious, but then later on learned more about myself, and that's when things actually started going. Was it like that for you guys?  Nawal Rai: Yeah, Cheryl, I was gonna say, you are definitely not alone. I think we've all been through that phase of running away from our community and everything, and we're trying to reach for that whiteness and the validation of white people. And I think even in the structural way. In college, as a freshman, and after Covid and after George Floyd, that's when those were the moments that really looking into politics and like also looking at the systematic racism and how it has embedded in us in our consciousness and the way that we go on about life. Those moments and those phase of life has definitely made me start the process of decolonization and really explore who am I? And those [00:29:00] curiosities became strong. I found ARU at a perfect moment in life and I'm still exploring and I'm still learning. ARU gave me the space and that people and that community. I'd never seen an organization like ARU in our community that really focuses on healing and talking about social and political issues that is impacting people, and not just about about it, but also how do we take action and getting our communities involved in those conversations. Obviously, we're not where we want to be and I think it's a constant everyday process and work that we're constantly trying to do and trying to build and give something back to the movement and to our people.  Cheryl Truong: Yes. Healing is such a powerful part of this work and of course everyone in this room knows that healing and storytelling is really political too, especially as racialized people. So I wanna ask, what radicalized you? Was there a moment in experience or a story that made you start to see the world differently or made you wanna speak out and organize?  Sarada Tamang: [00:30:00] For me, it was seeing other Bhutanese Nepali youth on social media embracing our culture. And I realized, wow, the clothes that we wear, the language that we speak, it's actually really beautiful. And That's when I started digging more into my culture and trying to understand why I was the way I was growing up. And so, yeah, I think seeing my community, but in different states through social media was definitely a way that moved me, pushed me to accept my culture.  After I was able to get over my insecurities or the desire to fit into certain categories in high school, I was like, Well, I had always been dancing ever since I was small and I enjoyed it even more as I grew up and I would perform if I could at school during our talent [00:31:00] show or diversity program and a lot of people complimented me and they were like, wow, you dance so well. Sarada Tamang: And when people are like, how many languages do you speak? And I say two, they're like, what? I can only speak English. And then after that, I was like, you know what? Yeah, I should embrace this because I love everything about our culture, especially the dance part of it. Cheryl Truong: And how did you get into dancing? Was that something you did with your family?  Sarada Tamang: Growing up, I would see my sister practicing with her friends. And that heavily influenced me because I was like, wow, they were so good at dancing. I want to be just like my sister. And so, I continued practicing and improved. Susmita Tamang: I actually have a story about that.  When we were very young, like when we were around eight years old. I'm pretty sure It was our first performance together, but we did dance in front of, what was it? Wasn't it, Kerelama Arubakotoma? Monks Arubakotoma?  Sarada Tamang: Oh yeah, it was [00:32:00] at a Buddhist temple.  Susmita Tamang: Yeah, and we got five dollars as our, I don't know why we got five dollars, but there was an envelope and I opened it and it was money. I was like, oh my god, maybe I could do this for life, you know? But no, no, no. And we actually performed another time too, it was during Losar, a New Year's event. This was in middle school. That was really fun. And I think that was the last time where our community actually got together. Because afterwards, Charlottesville, it became dry. But I have a lot of good memories of dancing with Sarada.  Cheryl Truong: Wow, five dollars. When you're young, five dollars is a lot. Do y'all do the red envelopes, too?  Susmita Tamang: We don't do red envelopes, but we do get money during our holidays, Dashain and Tihar.  From our last October and November GoHolidays, Dashain and Tihar. DR, I made around 800 and I saved that up and I paid my tuition with it.  So I'm always happy when it's around, you know, holiday season. [00:33:00]  Nawal Rai: Also, in our system, the man doesn't get the money.  Yeah, our family often just gives money to a woman in our family Because they often see our women often gets married and lives with husbands, right? And I think there's that respect of showing more appreciation towards that, at least that's what I heard going on, and I was  like, that's kind of cool. I  Susmita Tamang: In my family, they do get money, but obviously lesser than the girls, but for Tihar is when the guys, if they have siblings or cousins, they get gifts, and in return, the girls get money.  Manju Gurung: But  then about that too, guys, I think for in Hindu religion, there is a one goddess who kind of represents wealth and money and all of that. So people who celebrate, our practice Hinduism at least at my household, we practice both Buddhism and Hindu, like holidays and all of those. So, since there is a goddess who people actually pray for wealth and all of that, I think one of the reasons why a [00:34:00] lot of times women in households get a little bit of extra attention and money as a blessing, so. Susmita Tamang: Yeah, it's a bonus point, I guess.  The gender dynamic, I feel in Bhutanese Nepali community is like in most South Asian immigrants community, where the male kind of dominates the household and The females are the ones who are supposed to stay home, do the majority of the housework, look after the kids. So it's very traditional roles, but having come to America, I think those ideas of it being super dichotomous has been lowered because we know what it is. Susmita Tamang: Individualism is.. People are able to kind of work towards that, whether you're a male or a female or any other genders. So I think being in an American society has definitely influenced now our idea of those dynamics. It's much more [00:35:00] free. But there are definitely, communities within our community that still hold on to the older ideals. Yeah.  Nawal Rai: Yeah, like I would say in terms of a lot of gender roles, I will say like our communities pretty progressive and again, I also don't want to under undermine a lot of the violence that happens against women in our community, right? There's still that imbalance in power in different households, right? But I think when I do, look at our community as a whole, I will say like majority of it's like a more progressive learning, I would say in terms of a lot of issues as well. And if we're looking at men and women, I will say our women in our community are a little bit more progressive than men, I would say. And I think that also plays a big dynamic in our community and how women plays a role in society, even at my household, was very much of a on and off of the power dynamic with my mom and dad. I feel like there was a lot of things I knew that my mom [00:36:00] was and like, even my from my grandparents to see what's this, the oldest, daughter in law, she was, her opinion was always needed there and without her presence or without her saying, no family decision could be made. And that was respected by our grandparents and that was implemented in this. But there, I know there are also my friend's family, right, where there is that dynamic of really, uh, oppressive kind of dynamic.  Manju Gurung: I think within my family to what I've seen growing up between my parents when it comes to gender roles and all that. I think we'll just speaking from experience. I think I've had. This is not me like talking bad about my father or anything. He's a great father and husband and brother son all all, He's an amazing man. But I've had in past two, three years I've had conversations with him where he would say Oh, women should learn to cook. He would heavily focus on those words, which didn't really Sit right with me as I grew older and learned from [00:37:00] experience and around the world. And the thing is, his message was not really entirely wrong. Not just to make women be all prepared for their marriage and stuff, but he was just saying in a way as a concerned father would be like, in case if you , get married off and then go to your in laws homes, we don't want to hear your in laws making you feel bad about not knowing how to cook, clean, all of that, you know.  I always argued with him by saying I don't need to be perfect before I get married or, because I think it's a life skill that a man and women should know. The way that My parents have raised me. I would question them and be like, well, have you taught your son how to cook and clean. It's not only my responsibility to cook and clean and provide. I think after that conversation that I've had with him over and over again, he does kind of pause before he speaks to me about those things because he knows since I'm the oldest one from my home. He knows that, it's going to backfire on him. And so it's a lovely conversation to have with parents and I think even with grandparents too, about gender roles and [00:38:00] dynamics and what we are expecting of women specifically in our communities.  Susmita Tamang: By the way, what I love about what Manjutimi just said is that I feel like our generation is the one who's kind of asking them so that they're aware of what they're actually saying. And a lot of our parents are like that. But then I also realize. It's because their parents were like that and then their parents, grandparents were like that. So it's a lot of these things are passed down and I feel like we're here to break that and say, hey, stop, pause. That's not it. And then actually explain why it shouldn't be like that. Nawal Rai: Yeah, and I want to add a little bit because a lot of our listeners are going to be people who grew up in America, most likely, right? And I think I want to, and why I said that, our community is a little progressive is because I compared our community to a general conservative man of the West. And I feel like a lot [00:39:00] of those views about women and what you just mentioned about like your dad About your dad saying that right? It's not coming from like a woman should do this It is something that culturally passed down to that that's what they're used to and what's Susmita said you know, I think we are the ones To break that. And I feel like when break into those conversation, I feel like a lot of the elders often are pretty open to at least listening in my instances and I know it's not the same for everyone. Again, like the talk, speaking from my experience and with a lot of elders, I have been able to break that crack doing those conversation and I feel like they have been open to welcoming those different views and listening and I've been able to do that in my family, quite a bit. So I think that's something that, yeah, we can do.   Cheryl Truong: Yeah, that's so real. Challenging those cultural norms, especially when they've been passed down for generations, isn't easy. It takes a lot of care and courage, and you're all doing that through your stories, and I think that really shows in your first episode! So for all of our listeners out there, the first episode of [00:40:00] Ro Kata, when the Lotus Blooms is available using the links in the show notes. How was your experience recording your first episode?  Susmita Tamang: It was so nerve wracking at first because we wanted to keep it conversational, like we're just talking with our friends, but at the same time people are going to be watching this, so it's like, do we talk to the audience? How do we still retain our natural tone? It was a lot of just talking to ourselves, hey, it's gonna be okay. We can edit this out later, you know? But it was such a fun experience because everybody was on it. They had the same emotions as I did. But as we were talking about each topic, it kind of just naturally flowed. We had so much to say. Seems like all of us are big yappers so it was nice. What about you guys?  Manju Gurung: Yeah, well, definitely, we had to restart so many times just because everybody was so nervous. When we knew that it was recording, I think it really made all of us a little bit nervous, yeah. Sarada Tamang: [00:41:00] definitely a learning experience. This was a trial and error kind of, but I think overall we did great. I think as the more we do this, the more comfortable we'll get. During this process, we're doing our best to improve as we go and we've also been receiving a lot of feedback and we will definitely incorporate them on our following episodes. I  Nawal Rai: yeah, I wasn't on the podcast, but I did the editing. I think it was, it was a really good experience and I watched them while I was editing. I think overall for the first time, no one has ever done a podcast in our group, this was all like new, something new for all of us. And Yeah, putting that in mind, I think it was a very successful. I would say it was a successful first episode and, even for the edit, while I was editing too, there was a lot of things that I was learning as I was editing and there was a lot of things That are also group were incorporating that we were helping each other to produce that. So I wasn't the only editing. My groups were sharing their ideas and how we can really make that product look the way that it came out, you know? It was a lot of teamwork and [00:42:00] learned to take criticism, then how do we implement that in practice?  I think especially being virtual, it's difficult to do all the things. , it's a process. So we're trying to do a different recording in a different method next time and try, if that would make our screen much clearer or just play around with us. It's as we go, I think it's going to be an experience.  Cheryl Truong: Thanks for sharing your reflections with me, everyone. I'm glad to hear that it was overall a good experience. Well, we are at time, but before we close, I want to ask you all one last question. If you could go back and tell your younger self something, something you know now, after being part of this podcast, this community, this journey, what would you tell yourself?  Susmita Tamang: I think for me, it would be, don't try too hard to fit in, because my whole entire elementary to middle to early high school year, it was always trying to do these activities that like trying to get into musicals, and ballet, I did so many, I mean, these were actually really good opportunities, but [00:43:00] it was so that I looked like my peers, my interests and hobbies were the same as theirs, so that they took me in, kind of. They were fun though, I did get into musicals, it was fun, but that was definitely my time where I tried my hardest to be in that group. But I guess I would tell myself, don't try too hard to fit in because you will find your people. Just be yourself and that will help you move on through life.   Manju Gurung: For me, I think I would tell my younger self to be brave. I'm still telling myself to be a little bit brave and be confident. And I think that's a work in progress, but yeah Be a little brave and don't be afraid to share your voice. And I think that's something that I have struggled with, being confident in my own voice. And, thankfully enough at this age and day that I have ARU and this amazing team that we have. So that has allowed me to share my voice and not be scared.  Sarada Tamang: For me, advice I would give to [00:44:00] my younger self. Is that I would tell her to don't be afraid to speak and initiate a conversation because I feel like because I did that. Now I'm more afraid to speak to people. And embrace your culture. Nawal Rai: Yeah, for me, I would say. You didn't have to be a parent. I feel like, that's a sound depressing. I feel like I'm saying that because I feel like I had a lot of little siblings. And a lot of the time. My parent didn't force me to be, but being the oldest, I tried to put that habit of being an adult and being a parent figure. Now I'm 23 and living alone, trying to figure life out, and I'm like, I am still a child and I don't know how to be an adult. I feel like I didn't get time to be a child back then, because I was trying to be an adult so much, now I'm like, okay, I want to be a child now, so , I'm trying to figure out how do I also be a child and also [00:45:00] figure this world out, and I think that's the phase I am in life right now, trying to figure that out.  Cheryl Truong: Well, I'm so excited to see more of y'all. Thank you all so much for coming on the show for our listeners out there. Can you remind me one more time, how can we listen and tune into your podcast and how can we stay updated on all things?  Susmita Tamang: So majority of the things we're going to be posting is going to be on our Instagram, whenthelotusmoons, that is our username. And then we have a YouTube account, Spotify, as well as TikTok, where we're going to be posting more of our materials. So if you guys go there, you can check us out.  Nawal Rai: I think the best way to stay connected would be following on Instagram. That's where I feel like we'll post a lot of the things that will be , updated, and I think a lot of the announcement will come there.  Cheryl Truong: Thank you all so much for sharing your stories, your honesty, and your hearts with us today. Once again, this is the incredible team behind Asian refugees United's new podcast. It's really clear that Hamro [00:46:00] Katha isn't just a podcast. It is a space for healing, for truth telling, and for imagining something better. To our listeners. If you wanna learn more about Asian Refugees United and the work that these incredible youth leaders are doing, please check out Asian Refugees United's website.  It's currently linked in the show notes. And as always, thank you for tuning in to Apex Express. We'll catch you next time.  Cheryl Truong (she/they): Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. [00:47:00] Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Cheryl Truong: Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening! [00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00] [00:58:00]  The post APEX Express – April 17, 2025 – When the Lotus Blooms appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – April 10, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Ethnotech's Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the Aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.”     Our Guests discussed: April 2-20, 2025 Magic Theatre The Boiling, a tale of american nihilism tickets, wheelchair accessible Joan Osato SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant Applications:  sffilm.org/artist-development Ethnohtec May 22 Ethnohtec https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/22/panel-strong-bamboo-3-part-1 Strong Like Bamboo SF Library Koret Auditorium Free https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/25/performance-strong-bamboo-3-part-2   Coming Up Next Transcript   Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere of the boiling at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Eth-Noh-Tec's Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.” So join us on APEX Express as we join some creative conversations.   Miko Lee: [00:01:17] Tonight on Apex Express, we have the collaborators behind Magic Theater and Campo Santo's, world Premier of the boiling: a tale of American nihilism. Welcome playwright Sunhui Chang and video artist Joan Osato.    Joan Osato: [00:01:30] Thank you for having us on, Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:01:33] Yes. First I'm gonna start for each of you with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing Chinaka Hodges. And my question for each of you, and let's start with Joan first, is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Joan Osato: [00:01:49] I consider myself a child of immigrants in this country. My lineage Japanese, Japanese American by way of Hawai'i a lot of my lineage is carried by that diaspora, but also by my history at Youth Speaks for a couple of decades. And so I consider that my family also and Camp Santo.    Miko Lee: [00:02:12] Yay. Love that. And then Joan, what legacy do you carry with you?   Joan Osato: [00:02:17] A legacy of resilience and I know how to farm. I like to think of myself as a gardener and a great farmer. so that's the legacy I carry with me.    Miko Lee: [00:02:29] Thank you so much, Joan. Sunhui, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Sunhui Chang: [00:02:36] Well, I'm part of the diaspora, the Korean American diaspora that happened in the seventies. My family immigrated to the island of Guam in 1976, as part of developing the island of Guam. As, you know, the Korean diaspora at that time in the seventies, we were kind of shipped around the world a little bit, for our labor. There's a huge Korean population of workers that also went to West Germany and other places, Guam is not as well known, but it was definitely part of that. So in 76, our family landed on the island of Guam.    Miko Lee: [00:03:11] Wow, that's so interesting. And then what about what legacy you carry with you?    Sunhui Chang: [00:03:16] I think my legacy I have to say is that definitely of the immigrant working class, you know, as with a Korean diaspora, there's some things of, like the East Coast Koreans, as you may know, have a different history of being much more educated whereas kind of the west coast and the Korean diaspora during the seventies towards islands like Guam, we were much more working class. So that is my legacy. I have working class roots that, I never seem to be able to get away from and I don't want to.   Joan Osato: [00:03:47] Shoot. That's the same for me too, my working class roots.   Miko Lee: [00:03:51] So it sounds like you two have some commonalities there and that seem to have flowed over into the creation of this play. Sunhui can you talk about an overview of this brand New World premier, the boiling.    Sunhui Chang: [00:04:05] Simply put, it's a story of a tracker and a tracer, a government team that was formed to track and trace down carriers of the virus called the Boiling. and it actually. starts out as a chase, but what we really dig into is more about, identity, home, what it means to be, what is home and what it means to be, at home, and also, about redemption, you know, through our lives, you know? So it's multi-layered, so it's hard to kind of explain in a log line. but it's a chase story that kind of delves into the characters.    Miko Lee: [00:04:40] And I understand this was inspired by a real news story. Can you tell us about that real news story?    Sunhui Chang: [00:04:46] Oh, yeah. the genesis of this we have to kind of go back to the beginning of the pandemic back to December, 2019. I had just finished a gallery installation in San Francisco and then at the end of that I flew back to Seattle. Now at that period of time, there was this talk that there's this virus that's in China. That might affect us, we're not quite certain, but it could be something that could lead to a global pandemic, but we didn't quite know at that time. But then when I landed in Seattle, March 17th, 2020 was the date that Governor j Insley shut down the state of Washington. So that is a big take 'cause, As you know, we all hunkered down at that point. And then in one of the hunkering down is of course, I was watching the news and one of the news story, happened to come across where they were talking about a Econo Lodge motel that the state of Washington had purchased to turn into a quarantine motel, a voluntary quarantine motel where people who, felt that they were infected could check themselves in, to be evaluated. So the story goes that two people had actually checked into this motel totally voluntarily, but one of them the morning after. And this is captured, with a surveillance video. We actually see this one person walking out of their room at the motel. We see them walk across the street to a gas station with a market. Now the surveillance actually then switches over to the gas station surveillance, which shows him walking to the gas mart, walking inside, making a purchase, and then actually walking out. And then we see another footage of the surveillance that's going from the outside surveillance of the store. We actually see him, walk towards the bus stop, get on a bus. And then just the bus leaves and that is it. And the news story ends with that. They had no idea where this person drifted off to. and for me it just, it had this weird, eerie fascination that just grabbed me. and remember at that time, Seattle was such a hotbed for Covid. It was where the nursing home happened, where so many of the elderly had passed on, and we didn't even wanna secondhand touch a surface, so there was a real heightened sense of alarm that was happening. So seeing this story of this potential infected person just drifting off. And then what made it eerie was that I wanted to see what followed up. So for days after I kept watching the news, what is the follow up? What happened? It was never brought on again. Never. Another mention I. and for me that actually made it even more eerie. So it really sat with me, to the point where I had to actually just write down the first words of my, the first line of my story, the boiling. And the first line was, “Carrier X stepped out of the tightness of his room and breathed deeply the soft drizzle of the Pacific Northwest to cool his body from the growing fever.” So those were the first words that I wrote. and then it was just kind of off to the races 'cause the way I write Miko is that I'm very much organic. I kind of set a story and then I become a vessel of the story. I don't come to the story with agendas or anything of that nature. After the first sentence, it just kind of took a life of its own. So that's it.    Miko Lee: [00:08:18] That is amazing. I did not hear that story. and the real news story. That is wild. That would've sat with me too. Joan, had you heard of that story before being brought onto this project?    Joan Osato: [00:08:29] Well, when we did a reading during the pandemic. I did hear parts of that story, but I think it's also a story that a lot of us can relate to, because like here in the Bay Area, of course, we also experienced severe lockdown. Whereas in other parts of the country, I think that the type of lockdown, although being, you know, trying to be really safe for people also induces this sense of isolation and paranoia. And so wanting to get information about who's getting affected and like, where's it happening? I think that was all like kind of a mini obsession of like. Everyone who experienced the pandemic, you know what I mean?    Miko Lee: [00:09:10] How do you think that pandemic has had an impact on theater and on audiences?    Joan Osato: [00:09:16] Well on the most basic levels, you know, like what theaters are grappling with, just in terms of coming out of and recovering from pandemic, I think everybody understands that, you know, theater in general is struggling because of the changes that happened in terms of, Perhaps what people place importance on the isolation that we went through, the kind of, paranoia about being in groups of people and in space and in community together. And so, that affects, you know, theaters and you can, you can see that since the pandemic some have closed. But I also think that, the effects are also that, groups like The Magic or Campo Santo during the Pandemic, we never stopped working and we just figured out innovative ways to, you know, support artists, do radio plays, do, amalgamations of like filming. And so a lot of us became like very, very adept at different types of media that are theatrically based, like Sunhui's play, but that we had to carry out, like online or, you know, through other types of media.    Sunhui Chang: [00:10:30] I just wanted to add on that is that, the pandemic, you know, there there was definitely things that really affected us as humans in such a negative way, but what I also found admiring was, with Joan and Camp Santo and the artists and trying to find creative ways of, still letting, having an outlet. it really was that the story of the boiling would not have taken place if artists such as Joan and Camp Santo. If they didn't, if they weren't able to pivot and make these kind of online transitions at the moment, such as doing readings and such, cause that's how the story was first brought about. So, in many ways it was hard. But also I do appreciate these artists who have been able to kind of keep going and didn't shut down and kept letting the creative creativity somehow flow. I so appreciated that.    Joan Osato: [00:11:20] Yeah, it was definitely a beautiful thing. And then, you know, Miko, throughout the pandemic, you know, we would have like online viewings of our archives or we would sit with audience members, who were joining us and basically hang out for like three, four hours online. So trying to create the space not only to kind of generate support for artists who are. Completely outta work, but also to, just connect us even though we were. You know, obviously under these conditions where we couldn't see each other in person and it wouldn't have been advisable for us to even try to gather, you know, because, I consider us, you know, in-inside of our community extremely vulnerable. So, you know, just grappling with that tension, was really hard.    Miko Lee: [00:12:09] Yeah. And I kind of hear both of you saying that in those really tough times, there was this push to get more creative, to find more ways of reaching people and, and to look at ways that we can, um, innovate given that, and I'm wondering, given our current political climate where things are changing every hour now. I mean, the first Trump administration, it was kind of every week and now it feels like every hour a new kind of devastating thing is happening. I'm wondering how you both think theater can be used as a tool for social change.    Sunhui Chang: [00:12:41] For me Theater and, and really the arts, what I do love about it, is this really, and I kind of touch upon it with the story and such, and it really hit me during, COVID, during the pandemic, is that it's really for me, what it does is listening.  I know as artists, we love telling our story. We love telling what we see, our interpretations and things like that. but I think what I have really come about with the arts is the fact that I like the other side of it is the listening part, for me with my collaborators, that I have to listen. You know, it's not about just me talking, but just listening. So for me, the theater aspect of it and the art aspect of it is that I hope that, as we go through these tough times, what it really has us doing is listening to each other more. One of the things that I really feel in that way and appreciative of listening is the fact that without listeners, there's no storytelling. Listening is really the foundation of our humanity. You know, I mean, just talking really gets us nowhere. What really makes us move forward collectively is listening.   Joan Osato: [00:13:50] Mm, Sunhui heard that. Yes, I heard that. [laughs] As far as theater and kind of responding to the moment. I think, you know, the type of theater that we embody is always speaking to politics is always speaking to, you know, the culture of the moment and especially it's speaking, because a lot of Campo and the Magic's work is like based inside of, theater companies that live, work, breathe, are about by and for the communities, like in the Bay Area right. So there's just no way of separating the kind of politics from what happens like inside of these plays. For the boiling in particular though, I think there's a lot of stuff that, that people can think about and here inside the play that will resonate with them. One, we're, we're talking about a hypothetical, but it's not really a hypothetical situation about a pandemic, a very, harmful, very urgent, current conditions. You know, when there's no CDC to have, get your information from when there's no public health that's functioning in this country, we can, we can see what happened during the last pandemic and just make that comparison and draw those comparisons, you know, what would happen in the next one. Right. also that, you know, to me and Sunhui, you can totally. speak to this, but to me, Carrier X, the person that represents is this kind of violence and nihilism that exists inside of the, you know, the current, you know, psyche or administration right at this moment. this real like. It's definitely violent to the point of not caring whether people live or die and so I, you know, I think that's very striking about the play and it happening right now as premiering it right now, because I think people can draw a lot of parallels between. Like this personality, this complete disorder that seems to be going on, like not only in American politic, but amongst the large population in America itself. You know what I mean? That kind of disregard.    Miko Lee: [00:16:18] Joan, that is so interesting. I wonder if you both can talk a little bit more about Patient X as this kind of figure of narcissism and selfishness that we're seeing that's happening in our broader politics right now.   Sunhui Chang: [00:16:31] Yeah, Carrier X, he does, you know, he does kind of represent this nihilism of American nihilism, which to me it's really historical and cultural. we could go all the way back to the nihilism of manifest destiny, feeling like we have something to do that it was even, maybe. God's order, you know, a higher order that was given to us. And we have to take on this task and finish the task at no matter what cost, right? By any means necessary in a way. and that nihilism for me, I. historical, but when I see it currently that happens now, is that I see nihilism in the fact that people want to cut off Medicaid, Medicare, these social programs that are not just help people actually are crucial and it's really, it's a survival. So for me, when I see that kind of disregard, yes, it's not this overt violent nihilism, but I do find it to be so nihilistic in the damage that it does to all of us, you know? And I do find That this nihilistic violence, there's two flip side to it. The people who are directly affected, and harmed by it, but also the people who carry it are out, who carry out these acts of nihilism they do get damaged as well. So for me, so yeah, the nihilism, it's taken on a different life, but. It's a part of America and it seems to continuously carry forward through our days.    Miko Lee: [00:18:00] And Sunhui with the intentional characters, the lead being Korean American adoptee, and, the detective being a black woman, and then carrier X being white. Share with me a little bit about the racial element and your intention behind making those characters of those, ethnic backgrounds.    Sunhui Chang: [00:18:20] You know, there was no intention, as I said, I just write very organically. So there was never this thought of, oh, here's the three characters. One's gonna be a Korean adoptee, one's gonna be a black homicide detective, and another's gonna be a white carrier. It was never that I. It's hard for me to explain the process, but those were the characters that just kind of naturally came out. for me, it just felt fitting to it. So, I don't have agendas as I write, as I said, so there was none of that. It was just for me, as a vessel of the story, as a story was coming out, it was just. Oh yeah, this character is this, this character is that, and this one is this. so no intention. But, once those things came alive, then the story kind of, evolves around what's, organically happening. So yeah, there wasn't intent, but at the end of it all, of course, I go, oh, I see what has come about and how the story is so, In hindsight now going, oh yeah, I did this. for me, it feels right in the, in the fact that for me, this is America Miko. To me, I, I don't write with an Asian American kind of pen, or, or a brown person pen for me, I actually first and foremost say I'm an American. There's no way around it. and it's simply put too, is that. I am an American. so for me, these characters are just. Natural. And when I know about me being American and knowing about American history, these characters just naturally fit in, you know?    Miko Lee: [00:19:50] Yep. Thank you so much. I've read that you talk about new Americana theater. Mm-hmm. And also Joan, you were talking about how during the pandemic, you know, everybody's learning new techniques, new ways of storytelling, just because everybody was forced to with the lockdown. Sunhui, can you talk more about what you believe New America Theater is all about?    Sunhui Chang: [00:20:12] For me, the reason why I kind of see it as new Americana theater, first off, 'cause it's, it's American, the stories that come out of me is very American. you know, and I recognize it. And for me, I, it is, this is part of the American fabric, so that's why it's called Americana. And for me, I say it's new. 'cause what's new is the perspective that it's coming out from. perspective, which brings on different characters, a different storyline, you know, different message. So yeah, that's, that's it for me when I refer to it as New America in the theater. It's just that, that it's, it's an American tale that now we've been able to incorporate new voices into.   Miko Lee: [00:20:54] I noticed there's a really large list of collaborators. Of course the two of you, but then there's a lot of other people as well. Can you talk about that creative process, how you all were able to work together, how you made decisions about, oh, this is the part we're gonna use film, this is the part we're gonna use, movement.   Sunhui Chang: [00:21:11] Like I said, it's very much organic. Our third major collaborator is Ellen Sebastian Chang. she is the director of the show, and when me, Joan and her, we first started delving into it, we did. It was just sitting down and talking a lot. Going through the scripts, the different skill sets that we bring in. And really it was through the dialogue miko and of us talking with each other, but also listening to each other. and that was a big part is that as we started listening to ourselves, we came out with this direction.    Miko Lee: [00:21:47] And what would you both like the audience to walk away with after seeing the boiling?   Joan Osato: [00:21:52] I think, you know, as Sunhui talked about this, ritual of deep listening and so, the play doesn't guide anyone towards some natural conclusion that they should have about, you know, it's, it's not saying you, you must believe this, it's really leaving it up to the viewer, the listener, to draw their own conclusions. And, I think that, that people who come to this will be incredibly moved. I think that they will see a lot of parallels with what we're going through now and what we've gone through. And examine there is a kind of shameful history that we all need to grapple with, whether we own it or not. You know, Sunhui had talked about manifest destiny and that being like one of the founding, you know, kind kinds of principles that this country is founded upon. And there are many, many others That I think the play touches on which give pause and, and give the people who are engaging with this, room to think and reexamine their own actions in the world and how they approach it.   Sunhui Chang: [00:23:02] I'll just mention as an aside, you know, some of the things that we're looking at is. Our disconnect from the natural world and how that has impacted the natural world. Right.  I think Joan is spot on in, in that about, yeah, first and foremost, I do find this so important once again to say about listening. I do. I, that is the big thing that I would love is that for us to, if we really wanna truly have dialogues, and especially with people who we disagree with, and there is a lot of disagreement in this world right now. and for me, yeah, to, Get us back to a place where we could really listen to each other and not be in such a place where all we wanted to do is kind of say what we have to say. It's almost this thing of, oh, you know, the other has to listen, the other has to listen. And I really would like it that it becomes kind of more inward that we all say, Hey, it is time for me to listen. And then of course just the fact that when, as we listen to each other, what I do find and what I hope that others find as well, is that we're much more connected and we have so many things that tie us together than separate.   Miko Lee: [00:24:19] Well, thank both of you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Is there anything else you wanna add?   Sunhui Chang: [00:24:24] Just one thing, Miko, one of the elements of this play, is this natural world with birding and I would love to just, one of the big inspiration is that it's just a quote from Emily Dickinson and the quote is, “hope is the thing with feathers.” For me, I would love for people to kind of sit with that and think about that and what that means for us as human beings in relationship to the natural world, you know, and the importance of that.   Miko Lee: [00:24:52] Oh, that's such a beautiful visual image. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate both of you for sharing your time with me.    Joan Osato: [00:24:59] Thank you, Miko.    Sunhui Chang: [00:25:00] Thank you Miko    Miko Lee: [00:25:01] The Boiling is a brand new play, and it's a story of a Korean American adoptee Brian, who's a virologist from the Midwest, and a former homicide Detective v, a black woman who lives in the Pacific Northwest, and they're partnered to do this trace and track from north to south. They're following David, a white nihilistic carrier of a feverish virus called the Boiling. This world Premier Show opens to the magic theater and runs from April 2nd through April 20th. You can get more information about this show, including links to buy tickets at our show notes on kpfa.org/programs/apexexpress.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:25:42] Next we'll listen to an excerpt from The Camp, the first opera on the Japanese American Concentration camps during World War II. The camp premiered from February 22nd to March 2nd, 2025 at the JACCC Aratani Theater in Los Angeles. Composed by Daniel Kessner, who combines modern classical with Japanese instruments, A libretto by Lionelle Hamanaka, directed by Diana Wyenn, with Associate Director John Miyasaki, 11 singers and a 22 piece orchestra conducted by Steve Hofer. The incidents in The Camp Opera were drawn from different camps where over 126,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned to see the many Japanese American groups that supported this project, including JANM, DENSHO and Raf Shimpo see the camp opera.com and if you know a place where The Camp can be performed near you, please contact the campopera.com/support.    MUSIC   Miko Lee: [00:27:53] Welcome to Apex Express. I'm so glad to have Eth-Noh-Tec once again, we get Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and Nancy Wang.   Nancy Wang: [00:28:03] Yay. Yes. Hi. Hello. So glad to be here with you Miko.   Miko Lee: [00:28:07] We have been friends and colleagues for, it feels like a hundred billion years. The times that we're in are so complicated right now. But I just wanna first start with the question I often ask people, which is for each of you to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Nancy Wang: [00:28:27] Well, I am Chinese American, and I am fifth generation on my mother's side. And. So we go all the way back to 1850 when our family first came on a junk boat and started the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area.    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:45] And I am, half Japanese, half Filipino, born in San Francisco, raised in Concord, California, and living in the Bay Area for all my life.   Miko Lee: [00:28:50] And what legacy do you carry with you?    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:58] Well, I guess the identity I have as an Asian American, Japanese, and Filipino, um, I embrace all of that. The legacy is, as an artist, a performer. I've dedicated my life to creating works that reflect an Asian American consciousness, social, political, cultural. Both traditional works as well as new modern stories and music as well.    Nancy Wang: [00:29:25] And I was also a psychotherapist, so my work in the arts, whether it's dance, which I started out being a dancer and then a playwright, and then storytelling. I always weave in the healing aspect of what we all need to do in our communities. And so I use my art to also bring solace and bring celebration and bring, Depth and and the breadth of who we are as Asian Americans, as human beings, as part of this world, this country, then this city, so that we can celebrate who we are together.   Miko Lee: [00:30:04] Thank you for that. I hear you talking about activism, Asian American history, who we are and healing. I'm wondering if you could give me an update about what you're working on right now.   Nancy Wang: [00:30:14] Well, we have several things in the pipeline. I, for one, just finished writing and has now published Red Altar, which is the story of my ancestors. Three generations are followed in this book, about how they established the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area. All the ways they had to reinvent themselves as laws were passed against them. The people try to get rid of them. And it's really a story of courage and determination and persistence, ingenuity and obviously success. Because I'm here. So I'm gonna be doing some more readings and that can be found on our webpage. Right. And Robert,    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:30:55] I am focusing on archiving our work and after working with Nancy and creating Eth-Noh-Tec for the last 43 plus years, we have developed over 200 stories, and we put them on stage. We've written them, some of them are now being written as a compendium of stories. These are Neo-traditional folk tales and myths from Asia. And, people don't know much of this, but I am also an artist, so I'm creating illustrations that depict these stories. That's one project.   Nancy Wang: [00:31:23] Yeah, that's our next book. but what we're really excited about is our second Strong Like Bamboo, stories of resilience in the era of Asian American hate, but it's really broadened beyond Asian American because this year on May 22nd, will be a gathering of Latino and Asian artists and musicians, storytellers, and activists to just sit around and really share our stories, share our music, share our concerns, and to build bridges with each other because it, we will need to increase, our coalitions during this era. It's gotten worse, so we really need to come together.   Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:08] and we titled it strong like bamboo because of the Asian anecdote about, you know, one bamboo can snap, but together binding many bamboo together we're much stronger. So it's a call out to the community to bring all of our constituents and broaden that so that we are strong, as people of color.    Nancy Wang: [00:32:25] And of course we're gonna have food, which always brings us all together. But also bamboo can bend. Without breaking, so that's on a Thursday, May 22nd. But on May 25th, I have curated four other storytellers to tell their stories of their racist experiences and how they came through it to a healing place.    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:48] There's a gathering of Asian American storytellers, both from the Chicago area and also from the west coast.    Nancy Wang: [00:32:53] And there'll be a panel so they can ask questions and we can have discussions. But after that, the people in the audience will have the opportunity to break up into small groups of three in which they get to share their own stories, their own concerns, and that's really the whole thing is about inspiring people to come through what they're going through and coming out, on the other side with some hope and healing. Because when we share our stories, we lift that particular burden of, say our story about our racist experience. We lifted off our own shoulders and we get to share it. With someone who's listening with compassion and we don't feel alone anymore. It's really a powerful, powerful way to find community connection, relation, and strength.   Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:33:45] And we'll have also in both of those events, resources in earlier years, I was an Asian American songwriter and did a lot of songs of not just identity, but of unity. I'm also gonna be singing a theme song called Bamboo, which is part of the title and also, a work by Chris Jim, famous of the Chris and Joe Asian American Duet from years ago. the one song we're still here, though it was written 30, 40 years ago. It's still pertinent to what's going on now, especially declaring that America is a multiracial, multiethnic, texture of society.   Nancy Wang: [00:34:20] and, in 2026 we're gonna bring on, African-American and Euro-American, storytellers also, so that we really have a multicultural representation of all who we are and how we still will need to come together. I hope things will be better by 2026, but who knows?    Miko Lee: [00:34:39] Thank you so much for sharing about how storytelling can really be a tool for social change. Is there anything else you wanna share with our audience?   Nancy Wang: [00:34:47] Yeah. please come to our strong like Bamboo on May 22nd and 25th is gonna be at the San Francisco Public Library Main Library, both are free to the public May 22nd the Thursday at May 22nd, it's gonna be in Hispanic room,    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:05] and what time?   Nancy Wang: [00:35:06] Six to seven-thirty. And on Sunday it'll be in the presentations, the performances in the panel will be in the Koret auditorium, and then small groups will convene in the Hispanic room, which is right next door, and it's got elevators. So no problem, in getting there. Plus Bart and the bus is, it's easy to get there. And so that's what we wanted so that people could feel welcome.    Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:35] And that second show on Sunday Strong like Bamboo will feature our guest artist storytellers, professional storytellers. One of them being a local Eleanor Clement Glass who's half African American and Filipino, talking about her experiences. And then also, two guest artists from Chicago, one of them being Lillian Ji, who is a Japanese American hapa. Then third is, Archie Jun, who is a Thai American gay comedian storyteller who is a total riot. we are really wanting to blend many of our communities together to hear this talent Yes. And to deal with the topics.    Nancy Wang: [00:36:10] So we would love for the LGBTQ plus community to come out as well and support him and feel proud because all of the stories will, will really showcase our strength and our ability to deal with these things and come out the other side. So we are hoping that in the process of telling our pain, but coming out, on the other side, that it will be an inspiration for everyone to keep going during this difficult, very difficult time.    Miko Lee: [00:36:41] Thank you so much for joining me today.    Nancy Wang: [00:36:44] You're welcome. Thank you   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:46] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.   Miko Lee: [00:37:05] Welcome Jiehae Park to Apex Express. I am so excited to talk to you about the world premier of the aves opening at Berkeley Repertory Theater, May 2nd through June 8th. Welcome to Apex Express.    Jiehae Park: [00:37:19] Hi, Miko. It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:37:22] I wanna just first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Jiehae Park: [00:37:31] Hmm. I love the phrasing of that question. I was born in Korea and I came to the states when I was three years old with my parents who came to go to graduate school. And my father's family fled the north during the war. And my mother's family had always been in the south. And I definitely think that who they are and where they came from is a big part of who I am and the questions that I think of. And in a lot of ways, not just, racially and culturally, but also in terms of their interests. They're both scientists. This play deals, I hope thoughtfully with questions of identity and consciousness, that I've always been interested in.    Miko Lee: [00:38:18] And what legacy do you feel like you carry with you from them?   Jiehae Park: [00:38:22] Hmm. I mean, I write a lot about immigrants. This play isn't specifically about that, but in a lot of my previous work, I, I have. have written a lot about immigrants and I feel like my parents, you know, they came to this country when they were in their twenties. They didn't speak the language. They came from a generation of folks and at that time in the country where they were really, they had to be a certain way to survive. And I think that, intensity of work ethic, and the things that you also have to give up in order to get to where you think you wanna be, that question is, is part of their legacy to me. It's a, it's a gift and also something that, like a lot of other immigrants, I think I'm always sort of turning over in my mind and, and trying to look at from other angles.    Miko Lee: [00:39:12] Thank you for sharing. I'm wondering if you can talk to us about, first this title of your, world Premier, the aves. Where did this title come from? What is it about?    Jiehae Park: [00:39:23] So the title is the Latin word for Birds. And, the play there's a mystery that sort of unspools early on. So without, without giving too much away we see this old couple on a bench, on a park bench, and they have clearly been together for a long time and they are having a conversation that seems like a very ordinary conversation. And over the course of the first scene, we soon learn that they are discussing, doing something that will have ramifications throughout the rest of the play. And the aves is a word that I loved because of the association with birds. There, there are birds that make an appearance in this play, in both pedestrian and unexpected ways, in mysterious ways, and hopefully humorous ways. and then the connotation also of Ave Maria and this, this feeling of the sacred, which also infuses the play, which has a lot of humor, but also when I was writing it, I was thinking a lot about nature and the passage of time and this feeling of awe that I get when engage with nature. And I think that word also has those connotations for me.    Miko Lee: [00:40:46] And that sounds like a mystery that people need to come to find out more about. Can you tell us what inspired this work?    Jiehae Park: [00:40:54] I used to live on the northside of Central Park in Harlem, and I had this tiny, tiny little window that looked out, onto the north side of the park. And every day I would sit down to write and through my tiny window, I would see the same man sitting on this bench every day. And as the seasons changed and the leaves changed and the light changed, but still every morning there was the consistency of seeing the same person. And I think I I was thinking a lot about the passage of time and of nature shifting And I think subconsciously I was thinking about getting older myself. This was a time before I had children, but I was starting to become aware of my parents aging and generationally My peers, also our parents were aging and, and starting to have, you know, the complications and the beautiful things that can come with that. So I think all of that was a big soup in my subconscious. and I sat down and I wrote the first scene very quickly and then. I didn't know exactly what the rest of the play was gonna be, but I knew structurally that the first scene would be this old couple and that the second scene would be, a slightly different configuration of, of bodies. But that was hard to be so mysterious, um, and that the nex scene would be a different specific configuration of body. So I was thinking about the age of the bodies that you're watching and the story evolved from that. And I guess I should say that the play is set in a moment sort of best after now. So it's not the present, but it's not the distant future. It's certainly not like hard sci-fi by any means, but I think it uses some tools of speculative fiction. To ask questions that hopefully are illuminating about ourselves now.    Miko Lee: [00:42:59] Interesting. Did you ever talk with the man in the park that inspired this piece?   Jiehae Park: [00:43:05] You know, it's so funny. After the first couple of weeks of watching him, I realized he lived in my building and I hadn't noticed him before.    Miko Lee: [00:43:18] Wow. That's amazing.    Jiehae Park: [00:43:20] And I think that that's also something that. I had been thinking a lot about at the time this question of presence and attention, especially in New York, which is a city that is so loud. I mean, I love, I love New York and there's so many things that I love about New York, but it is such a loud city and it is hard to hear yourself think and, and the quality of attention in any. I was gonna say in any city, but in like any moment in our extremely chaotic world, I mean, especially now, that sort of quiet present quality of attention that I think is so beautiful and so rare, and I associate with, I'm not religious, but, but when I was a kid, I was, and this, this quality of, of sacred space, I think I was, I was really curious about that. And at the time, I think I had also that year gone on a silent meditation retreat. so trying to bring that quality of attention to my ordinary life as a urban citizen, I think was also part of the experience of writing the play. But yeah, he lived in my building and I hadn't noticed him before. And so this question of what do we notice and what do we need to shift in ourselves to notice what's in front of us and has been in front of us.    Miko Lee: [00:44:44] I am hearing you talk about a sense of presence and, and time passing. I'm wondering if that is what you want the audience to walk away with or are there other things that you're interested in provoking with this piece?    Jiehae Park: [00:44:57] As an audience member, when I go to any play, I always hope to leave a little bit different than how I entered and. That shift can be really subtle. In fact, for me as an audience member, sometimes it feels more profound when it is subtle. So on, on like at like a really baseline level. We've been having a lot of conversations with the design team about how to create this. Quality of space that feels different from the mundane so that when we enter the space of the theater, so for our body chemistry changes and that we are being asked by the play to lean in and pay attention perhaps in a way that we're not asked to pay attention, in, in the world outside of that room. And to be able to request that of an audience and share that with an audience. Together, I think is such a beautiful thing. And, and one of my favorite things about any collective experience when, when it all feels like we're breathing together. And my hope is that that's something that we can create, at a, like a biochemical level in our bodies, on a sort of more. Intellectual, emotional, philosophical level. I think there are questions that the play is asking about, what makes us, us and memory and the ability of a person and a relationship to change over a long period of time. And over the course of events that. May require forgiveness. those were certainly things that I was thinking about while I was writing it. So there's also that, that more character relational level of questioning that, that I think, will resonate with people, in different ways depending on where they are in their lives. And then I think especially because, you know, there's a lot of conversation about sandwich generation now, like folks, I. Who have dealt with aging themselves or aging parents and, the complexities and possibilities that can create. I think that there's another layer of the play that stirs up some of those questions as well.   Miko Lee: [00:47:04] Speaking of complexities and possibilities, I understand that you studied music and that you're also an actor and then you also write for Marvel's Runaways. Can you share a little bit about how these different elements impact you as a writer, as a creator?    Jiehae Park: [00:47:20] Yeah, so I started as an actor, which I think a lot of people do, mostly because it's the most accessible thing. Like you can audition for a play. You can't sort of audition to write a play. you can just write a play. But that, I think, came later for me. I don't really perform a ton anymore, although I did love it. and then the shift to television happened eight or so years ago. There's a big movement of playwrights moving into television, during peak tv. And they're very different. there is some shared similarity in storytelling instincts and craft. but the mediums are just really different, so I feel like I get very different things from, from all of them. I feel like I learned being a performer for a long time. As an artist, it's just getting to bump up against people who you think are fascinating and learn from them what you like and what you don't like, and who you wanna be and who you don't wanna be. and from tv I think I learned, To not be so precious. It takes a really long time for me to write a play. and I used to think, oh, I have to go into the woods and like be silent for a month and then like a play will emerge. And like sometimes it happens and it, that feels like a blessing when it does. But in TV, because there's so much money at stake and so much time pressure that you know, when something's due, it's just due and you turn it in. And if it's not perfect, you just deal with it and you make it as good as you can. And I think that there's a certain amount of shedding of perfectionism, which has been really healthy for me. but I do. Love the theater for the ability to spend a long period of time contemplating something and, and making it with a group of people who feel inspiring and we're all moving towards the same thing. and I think there's a little bit more space or a lot more space in the theater for things that may feel. mysterious or more open. whereas in television especially these days with the sort of decline of peak TV, there's an expectation of propulsion. Like overt propulsion, if that makes sense. That is not a criticism like, you know, I also love TV. but it is, it's like the pace of it is different and the ask of it is different than the ask of a play and and the baseline thing of just, you're not in the same room with the people experiencing it that is so special in theatre.    Miko Lee: [00:49:45] How do you go about shifting that mindset for that kind of speed of TV that you're describing versus the kind of longer meditative state of creating theater?    Jiehae Park: [00:49:55] Yeah, I mean, I think there's hopefully a two-way exchange. Because I also think that bringing some of those qualities of thoughtfulness and deliberation to the world of TV within the container, within the boundaries of it, can be incredibly useful. And ultimately a lot of the things that delight people, delight people regardless of the format. So that, like, that feeling of inevitable but surprising, like that's something that is of tremendous value in all mediums, right? I think for me personally, when I write a play. I try to make a space in my life that is a little more still. and I have a toddler now, so that's challenging. But in a way, working in television has been really helpful for that because, you know, I don't have five hours in the middle of the day to, you know, be with myself and listen to the trees. I maybe have like 30 minutes, but to try to drop into that as. quickly and without angst, without like working myself up about it. 'cause that's a waste of time. That's been a useful lesson to learn. Whereas working in television can feel a lot less lonely also than playwriting because in a writer's room, most shows in the states are written in the writer's room, there are few exceptions, and you're with a group of people. And so there's a sort of energetic exchange happening there that in a play only happens much, much later when you're in rehearsal and ideally in production. there's a sort of joyful energy and exchange that can happen in a writer's room, both when you're breaking the story and then ultimately when you're in production. And there's like many, many more people involved. And there's the crew and the cast and you know, all of the technical departments and producers. I feel like you mentioned, Code switching earlier. And, humans are so adaptable and I think we automatically sort of shift our brain chemistry and our body chemistry in response to the environment around us. sometimes very consciously, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes both. so I think a certain amount of that is just, okay, these are the given circumstances. And then, you become who you need to be in that space.   Miko Lee: [00:51:54] Thank you for sharing. Okay. I have one last TV question, which is that given that everybody's in this writing room together and you're, there's kind of a speed that's attached to it, do you feel like things get thrown out more quickly and with less kind of emotion attached to it than in theater?    Jiehae Park: [00:52:10] It's possible. I think it depends on the person. So I just worked on season four of the morning show last year. And there is a real need on that show because it deals with the news to be absorbing what's happening in the world and shifting the story based on that. And so that there has to be a sort of lightness around that. So in that kind of environment, absolutely. but I've also been in other rooms where someone got really attached to an idea, and maybe it was clear that that idea wasn't gonna work out, but there was, there was still like something, in it that wanted to be held onto and, and it may be hung on for a long time. And that process. Also could have happened, like that exact parallel process could have happened in a play. And actually in neither of the situation, is that necessarily a bad thing? Like is there something about that idea that maybe is not the idea itself, like the emotional core underneath it or the deep, deep idea underneath it that is useful? That even if the manifestation of the thing doesn't continue, if the manifestation gets thrown out, but like the real thing that was underneath it was important gets folded in in some unexpected way. I don't think it's a bad thing either way. It just is the peculiarities of any particular process.   Miko Lee: [00:53:22] And it sounds like it's about the people too, right?    Jiehae Park: [00:53:25] Yes, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I've certainly been in that book where I'm like, oh, I really think it's like this. It's gotta be this, it's gotta be this. And then, you know, two years later, I look at the draft, I'm like, oh, no, no, no. It, it is definitely not that. Like let me take that entire thing out. and it just was in that particular moment, I wasn't ready for whatever reason to let go of that idea. And that's okay. I am now, and then it moves on.    Miko Lee: [00:53:48] We're circling back to the beginning of the conversation about the aves, which is about presence and being in that moment. And where you are in that moment might be, no, this isn't right. And then years later you say, oh yeah, that wasn't right. Or that was right.   Jiehae Park: [00:54:03] Yeah, exactly, exactly. To listen to yourself is a, you know, I, I am, I've been doing this for a long time now and, that is still something that I feel like I always have to learn, that I think just is a human.   Miko Lee: [00:54:15] Yes. The perennial lesson of Yes, intuition. I'm wondering if you could tell our audience why they should go see the aves.    Jiehae Park: [00:54:24] My hope is that if you are curious about a certain kind of experience and attention in the theater, that you'll accept our invitation to this play, which is an unusual play. I don't think that everyone should see this play, just like, I don't think everyone should see any particular work of art, but if the things that we've been discussing, if the sort of vibe that you're getting from this conversation resonates with you, then the experience of seeing this play with a group of people who are also curious about that kind of experience may be something. That is enjoyable for you and would probably therefore also be enjoyable for that audience to be together with you and for the play to be together with you in that space.    Miko Lee: [00:55:17] Thank you so much for spending time chatting with us. Folks can see the aves at Berkeley rep May 2nd through June 8th. Thank you so much, Jiehae.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:26] For you Asian American film makers out there: SFFILM announced a new annual filmmaking grant in partnership with Cedar Road. The SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant is dedicated to fostering bold, original feature film projects that amplify Asian and Asian American perspectives on screen. In Korean, iyagi means “story”—a word that embodies the heart of this grant's mission: to champion storytelling as a powerful bridge connecting people across cultures and perspectives. A link to the grant application will be available in our show notes.    Miko Lee: [00:55:58] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.    APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.  The post APEX Express – 4. 3.25 – Coming Up Next appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Resources: Lavender Phoenix: website | instagram QTViet Cafe: website | instagram Mugworts Queer Cabin: website Underpainting Collective: instagram Aetelier Collective / Suncha: instagram | spotify | show on march 30 in Newark, CA Minjoona Music instagram | spotify Transcript: Cheryl Truong (she/they): Good evening and welcome to tonight's episode of apex express. I'm your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight show is in honor of Trans Day of Visibility, but we're not just here to talk about visibility in that surface level way get sometimes framed as a political strategy. We're here to hold the fullness of trans life, the rage, the fear, the grief, and the joy, the power and the brilliance. Across the nation, a storm of hostility is being unleashed against the LGBTQ plus community.  In 2024 alone, 617 anti-trans bills were introduced. Making it the fifth consecutive record breaking year for legislation targeting trans rights. This year, that number has already climbed to 796 bills. This is horrifying. Yes. But even in the face of all of this, Our trans and queer community have never stopped living have never stopped dreaming. Have never stopped building futures from the margins.   And so I hope tonight as much as it is important to stay rooted and grounded in our political reality that is having very real, very immediate consequences on our trans and queer and gender expansive community. We also want to center trans joy because trans joy is not a distraction.  It is a strategy, a survival skill, and a source of power. So we're gathering in that spirit of resistance, remembrance, and radical joy tonight. And I'm honored to be joined by some incredible guests whose lives and work, reflect that very spirit. First we have Jean and Hải from QTViệt Cafe a creative cultural hub, dedicated to queer trans (QT Viet) liberation through ancestral practices, the arts and intergenerational connection. And we're also joined by eri oura from Lavender Phoenix, also known as LavNix, an organization that builds trans non-binary and queer API power in the bay area. Thank you all so much for being here. To start us off can you all introduce yourselves so that our listeners can connect your voices to names?  Hải Võ: Yeah, thanks Cheryl. Chào mọi người My name is Hải. And I am a member of Asian Refugees United, QTViệt Cafe Collective. And, yeah, thanks so much for having me. Jean Phạm (they/them): Hey, I'm Jean. I use they/them pronouns and I also organize with Hải at QTViệt Cafe Collective. I'm also a part of a newly formed art collective called Under Painting Collective. We're taking over an art school. We teach oil painting and charcoal drawing. Thanks for inviting us to be here, Cheryl.  eri oura (they/them): Hey, thanks Cheryl for having us. I'm eri. I am part of LavNix I am also part of Mugworts, a queer, and trans BIPOC centered cabin out in Greenville. , and I'm excited to be here. Cheryl Truong (she/they): Before we begin, I want to offer a logistical note. For our listeners if you were interested in any of the organizations that were mentioned, and it will be mentioned throughout the show such as Mugwort and Lavender Phoenix, which eri mentioned. Or QTViệt Cafe mentioned by Hải and Jean, and of course the Underpainting collective you could find their socials in the show notes on our website, kpfa.org/programs/apex-express.  Okay. Transition. I want to start with a question that is intentionally spacious. What is on your heart right now as a trans person moving through the world. Hải, do you want to start us off?  Hải Võ: Hmm. Yeah chia buồn That's the phrase that comes up for me. I just share in sadness. Usually that's a phrase to describe when someone passes in the Việt community. The way that I hear about how folks in our community are experiencing job insecurity, housing insecurity, being arrested, detained, deported. My days and my hearts are just broken. My heart has gone in many cycles of heartbreak over my whole life, as a queer person, as a trans, femme person. It isn't to say that this is anything new or that I haven't been in practice to mend my heart. This is just a incredibly heightened time. It's starting to not just hurt my heart, but also I feel it viscerally. It's much more tangible. We're talking about our lives, each other's lives. And so yeah, my heart is breaking.  I feel the frustration and the anger and the more frequent, heightened fear. But to be honest with you, our ancestors have equipped us for this moment. And I think there are reasons why, this moment exists. This is the reason why we started QTViệt Cafe, why Asian Refugees United is here because we know that we're trying to restore our wholeness, not just as trans folks, as queer folks, but just as people from a history of violence, trauma, and displacement. This isn't the first time that all those things have come around. Our ancestors have faced these maybe in different contexts and maybe in our homelands more so. And while I have that frustration and that anger, the frequency is heightened, I feel steadfast and I feel more able to mend my heart and able to hold and mend other people's hearts in this moment because we've been at this for so long. QTViệt  Cafe, we're gonna be celebrating nine years this summer. So I just got chills because I, I think I, um, I have to like, hold myself in comfort for myself right now because, I mean, when I came out, to myself in my teen year or I knew I was queer and trans from a really young age. I could see who I was, but I didn't necessarily feel like it was who I truly was. And so I grew up in a world where I was living different realities or wanting a different reality from actually how I was. I'm getting chills because when I came out, I started coming out to friends and families in my late teens and early twenties, and then ultimately to my parents when I was 23. I didn't know I would be able to live this long. I didn't know I would be able to meet other queer and trans Viet people, other queer and trans folks of color or other queer and trans people in general. Couple that with like a food system that I've been in food for so long, , for almost 15 years. And so, trying to nourish. Queer justice is connected to all other forms of justice. I've been at land and food justice work for a long time. And so, what I was seeing with what was happening to me and our queer and trans kin, the injustices happening in our community, I was seeing also that with cultural injustice in Vietnam to the Vietnamese community here, and then ultimately to the food system here in the US. So it was all connected. I am both surprised and also really proud that I'm still here and the most comfortable and thriving I am in my skin. Healing as a trans and queer person, I can only go so much. I can only heal so much on my own. The healing and the fight for liberation and freedom as queer and trans people happens so much more exponentially when done together. And so, I'm just so proud of us for all the years of connecting with each other, getting to know each other, building friendship, relationships, and fighting for the future that we want. I'll be turning in Viet age, I'll be turning 40 next year. My doctor, when I was young and had type two diabetes said that I'll only live to be 30. And so I've surpassed that. I'm excited for what magic we as queer and trans people continue to make, and what's the fights that we will continue to have and ultimately the unprecedented and insurmountable victories and wins that we'll have as a queer and trans community. 'cause we've been doing that forever and in this moment I wanna organize, I wanna help mend and heal our hearts and our minds so that we can really be able to like galvanize, organize, and create the practices and policies and futures that we actually want in the world, which we've been doing forever. I also think that it's an important time right now to be really clear about what we need, to be really clear about what we want and gather in ways that we may not have gathered before. I see joy and health as part of struggle and freedom in liberation and organizing. And so, I'll check there. eri oura (they/them): That was so beautifully said Hải. Thank you for naming the resilience and the fight that queer and trans folks have had to exude to continue to exist. For me it has also been really difficult to see and witness the struggle that our folks are experiencing right now.  It's really something to kind of trust in the state to hold our identities in a way that I don't think the state ever really knew how to. I was reminded on a group coaching call with other trans folks, that trans folks have lived in the underground for most of time. And that reminder really just made me feel we don't need validation from these entities, you know? That's never what has fulfilled our existence. It's actually our joy. It's actually our healing, our ability to not get bulldozed by waves of hate and transphobia. Queerphobia. It's really important for us to remember that and remind young folks that truth even though there has been this chunk of time, maybe like the last decade or so, where our gender identities get acknowledged by the state, but that's not where our validation comes from. We really need to not depend on these institutions. We take care of us. What I have been witnessing more is mutual aid being used as a way for our people to keep going. Honestly, I have never in my life gotten so many mutual aid requests as I have in the last few months which speaks to the heightened security and safety issues that our folks are experiencing in the queer and trans community. But also it's a sign that people are leaning into being courageous and asking for help, which is not an easy thing to do. It's not easy to ask for the help that we need. I think it's really important for us to remember that we're not alone. There are more than a billion people in this world I think I was also feeling overwhelmed by how much support folks were asking of me and I've had to say some grounded nos. And that kind of broke my heart honestly, to have to say no to a really courageous ask for support. My friend and coworker reminded me that there are so many other people in this world and we need to be able to share the the work of supporting each other to exist. Jean Phạm (they/them): Mm-hmm. Wow, that's beautiful. I'm loathed to go last. the first thing I think about is recently, one of the youth that I had formally worked with reached out and we just had a check-in and it really reminded me of the show Heartstopper, you know, these gay British kids. One of the gay kids, he is like always going to his art teacher about his various issues like, Hmm, I'm gay. Like, what do I do? And the art teacher's just trying to have lunch. And I remember I used to be Charlie, the kid, but now I'm the art teacher trying to have lunch and trying to help this kid deal with crisis. I remember years ago, the first time Trump got elected, I remember the first thing that I was thinking about was ” oh, I, I guess I'll never be able to transition or live my life the way I want or need to.” then I just kind of grieved that and made peace with it. I do wish I could speak to that version of me because I think it's pretty similar to what Hải had shared. Personally, I do feel I am in probably the best form of myself that I've ever been. I'm the wisest I've ever been. I'm doing everything that I want to. I'm learning to heal my inner child. My taste in men has improved dramatically. I learned how to say no. There's a lot of things that have just shifted that I think are net positives, but it's in total, in contrast with the world in which we live ourselves. And I think similar to what folks have shared I think for me, I've just gone more hyperlocal. Right. Given that these institutions, our federal institutions, our state institutions have failed us. It's just truly ripping the mask off. These are things we've known before. The ways in which we are being oppressed, the ways in which people spout hate. The rhetoric being used. It's not new, it's not novel. These are things we've heard over and over again. Like, if I wanted to cosplay as a hater, an alt-right hate, like, it'd be so easy, you know everything they say. There's a sense that the oppression we face is so mundane and it's so ordinary. The student had asked me oh, Jean, I'm so alone right now. What do I do as a young queer person trying to navigate the Trump of it all, and I was like, oh girl, you need to make friends. Like you really need to make friends. 'cause it's really, yeah, like when our institutions fail us, our community really holds us out. It's why I organized with the QTViệts. It's why my art friends, we created Under Painting Collective. It's why we find these pockets of the world that we really want to build and that are nourishing to us, our energy giving, that we wanna invest our time and resources in. And we try to carve out a version of the world that we wanna live in. And I think that's how we ride it out, or that's how we survive. We have to look super local. Yeah, I think that's basically how I'm doing. So I'll, I'll just check there too.  Cheryl Truong (she/they): Thank you all for sharing what's in your heart.  Hải, thank you for bringing up chia buồn, sharing sadness, and for naming our legacies of ancestral resilience. eri, thank you for reminding us that the state and institutions have no say in the validation of our identities as trans and queer people. And for lifting up mutual aid as a beautiful alternative that supports, and I loved how you put this, those courageous asks for help that the state will never be able to provide. And of course for modeling those grounded no's..  And Jean, thank you for your offerings of alt-right cosplay. And for grounding us in that strength of community. And I just want to say. A big, thank you to the art teachers in the middle of having lunch everywhere. I don't know where we would be without you truly. ‘  We are going to take a quick music break, don't go anywhere we'll be right back with more conversation in honor of Trans Day of Visibility when we return. Next up, you're listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona's newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We'll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we'll be right back.  And we're back!!. You're listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona.  Huge thanks to Jackson Wright and the whole crew behind that track. Before the break we talked about, what's been sitting on our hearts as queer and trans people moving through the world right now, naming both the grief and also the resilience that we carry. I wanted to stay with that thread and widen the lens a bit because we know that even in the face of violence and erasure, trans resistance is alive and ongoing. So I want to ask, where are you seeing moments of resistance in the trans community?  Whether in movement spaces, small acts of care, or day to day survival.  eri oura (they/them): I am happy to share first. Where I'm seeing resistance, movement building work and also community building. My paid work with LavNix is definitely a space where we center trans justice and do the work of developing leaders with skills to be able to hold the line of our existence. Our existence is resistance. We don't just see our own individual liberation as separate from everyone else's. We are doing the work of advocacy around budget in San Francisco with our Care Not Cops campaign. We're doing the work of lifting up our folks in our stories not just in the current moment, but also by lifting up like our QTAPI histories. QTAPI meaning queer and trans API folks. With Mugwarts, we provide a more accessible, affordable space for queer and trans BIPOC folks to heal. For me that is also part of the resistance, the fight, getting to rest because as we were checking in earlier and talking about how stress really does shorten people's lifespans and quality of life. I think knowing that there's space, there's place, there's land for us to engage with to do that work of healing. The more disconnected we are from that reality that we are connected with the land, it's making it harder for us to be able to feel connected to ourselves, to each other. For me, when I go to the river for a swim or go to the ocean for a dip, that is part of my resistance too. My joy in being in that space is so important. Why would we fight if we had nothing to look forward to? Honestly, if it all just felt so mundane and also like we're always fighting, we would just burn out. When we're burnt out, it makes it hard for us to feel the light of our ancestors, feel the light of the universe that is actually our birthright to connect with. The reality is that this world is very abundant. Scarcity is a manufactured thing that, capitalism, the state is trying to push on us as a way to oppress us, to suppress us, to keep us down. When we tap into abundance, we tap into pleasure, we tap into joy. We tap into ease in this way that allows us to stay connected to each other, to ourselves, to other beings on this planet. Being rooted in abundance is a powerful act of resistance. Jean Phạm (they/them): Yeah. Well said. I try to practice abundance, but I always feel all I know is scarcity. Great reminder. For me, trans justice is so embedded with so many larger movements like you have shared. Trans justice is disability justice. Trans justice is fighting for Palestinian liberation. Trans justice is anti-imperialist because I think ultimately, self-determination in our bodies. To be the way that we are.  I often feel spiritually as trans people, we know who we are so there's a lot of abundance there. There's a lot of wealth there. I would actually argue spiritually cis people have more to gain from trans justice than we do. I always share how trans people in pre-colonial societies were spiritual leaders, shamans, healers in the community. It was mentioned before that a lot of trans people today exist in underground economies or are just not embedded in society. There's no place for trans people in our current world whereas there used to be. I do think that is one of the unstated qualities that we're trying to bring within trans justice. I also will say in any given committee where people are doing actions or organizing or doing mutual aid, I can assure you that there is a, they them, there is a doll, there's a trans gender expansive person, otherwise trans person in those committees, you know, People are moving.  In the topic of trans visibility day, we see the ramifications of that, right? Visibility doesn't always offer us more power or safety. Institutions are realizing this. You see nonprofits, community orgs, they have to scrub every fixture of language around diversity, equity, inclusion, so that they aren't being targeted by the federal government. Visibility isn't really what trans justice is about, right? It has never really protected us. We're fighting for basic things to survive, to work to make sure this stupid gender on our form is right. To walk to the store. In some sense, the way I've lived and expressed my transness, I always feel the un visible parts or the invisibility is where I will always feel more actualized. You know when people, cis people, strangers look at me and they're like, who the hell is she? What is she like? What is that? I'm like, uh, My favorite moments are when people. Like in my old job when I had first moved to the Bay, I got this big sense that I declared to know, oh, I'm trans. And I could see the cogs turn in their head as they're trying to figure out, oh, which way are they trans? And I love that. I love living in the ambiguity. To me, that's always been more emblematic what being trans is to me is kind of just playing with expectations. Making people a bit more uncomfortable and allowing more for more experiences to live. Hải Võ: What's coming to mind, in addition to what you've all shared is, what does it mean for me to be on Turtle Island and in the diaspora? Part of transness and queerness is also understanding who we are and where we come from. In the context of just the nature of why I'm here on Turtle Island in diaspora is because the US was there in Vietnam. I think that means trans justice is actually beyond borders and actually recognizing that the history of our queer and trans people, trans justice means that we're also acknowledging the struggles and liberations of our kin  in the homeland. When I think about trans justice, I can't help but think about the fights against imperialism, colonization, the ways in which essentially trans and queer people in Vietnam have been discriminated, have been bullied, have been essentially because of colonization, imperialism, been wiped out of history. And if it wasn't for a culture that is by word of mouth and people from indigeneity that is questioning who we are and also being like, well, if we are trans and queer then we must have queer and trans ancestors. And we do. And that's been a very healing journey for me. It's been both hard but also very healing to know that queer and trans folks our age, even younger are also experiencing similar things to what we're experiencing here as queer and trans folks in the diaspora. But it also means fighting for indigenous, local, queer and trans ancestral homeland experience also. I was just, we were just hearing about how USAID was paying for essentially medication for our people over there. But now with that gone, it's like, what are people to do? And so it's not even just, not just about trans lives. The defunding of that has also created stop in removal of Agent Orange. We have fields in Vietnam that have like, after that cut, are left to continue to have Agent Orange. Now, with the early monsoon seasons of the year, that water will permeate into millions of lives downstream. And Vietnam is a whole ecosystem of wetlands and water. And so for me, I just think about trans justice as as a Viet, as a Southeast Asian, as an Asian person, as a person who has lineage somewhere, ancestry, somewhere indigeneity somewhere, it means acknowledging the deep historical reparations that colonization, imperialism and modern day capitalism in parts. The last thing I'll share for this one is I think that trans and queer justice is also ecological justice. This is very connected to what you were sharing, Jean. Ecology is essentially the study of home. There's just been too many times in my life where home has been ripped from me. I've had to leave what I thought was home. I've had to feel like I, I needed to be a different thing outside of what my home actually is in my own body and my own mind. How can we create a piece of not just mind, but also piece of body, piece of place, piece of space, piece of an unlived ecology that transness and queerness is the norm. And, I love learning about how nature is so queer and so trans. I mean me saying that and naming that is a hard thing to say. The English terms that we use is a very colonial thing, but the ways in which other animals and plants are in relationship to each other, I'm like, oh, worms having multiple genders, I'm like that. I feel like that. And so like, the worms probably have their own language about what that is. I'm not gonna like, “worms, teach me about who you are” because I'm not trying to appropriate you and I'm just like, this is this cool that nature is already in a state of abundance in itself, like queer abundance in itself. Cheryl Truong (she/they): Ooh.  Thank you all for sharing those powerful reflections on resistance. It's such a reminder that trans resilience doesn't just show up in protests, policy fights, or in singular days like Trans Visibility Day. It lives on in our relationships. And our lineages in the everyday ways we refuse erasure.  As Hải reminded us. It stretches beyond borders and into our motherland, especially as diasporic trans or queer people of color. And it shows up when we play with people's expectations. Like Jean confusing their colleagues assumptions about their gender. It's also in the worms. In our ecologies. It shows up when we fight for Palestinian liberation. When we organize with value aligned groups, like Lavender Phoenix, like QTViệt Cafe it also shows up as Eddy beautifully names in our joy. I love the importance of uplifting that swimming in the ocean is part of resistance. Because rest is resistance. Pleasure is resistance. Our very existence is resistance. So, thanks for grounding us all in that  So we've just spent time talking about how resistance shows up in our trans and queer communities. And I now want to shift us into a conversation about what sustains us, what keeps us going, what brings us back to ourselves and to each other. But before we dive in, we're going to take a quick music break.  Up next. You're going to be hearing from Suncha, an Asian-American Bay area based band dabbling in punk rock, math rock, and groove-based jamming. The group features Ryan Foo on guitar and vocals. Jackson Wright on bass and vocals. And Abhay Malik on drums. You can catch Suncha live this Sunday at Simmer Huang in Newark, California. For more information, check them out on Instagram. @ ateliercollective That is spelled. A T E L I E R collective– link in our show notes. And keep an eye out Suncha's debut album is set to drop in the summer of 2025. Enjoy the music and we'll be right back. Welcome back!  You're listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3. KPFB in Berkeley, and 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online at kpfa.org. Big shout out to Suncha for that last track. So much love to this Bay Area Asian American band bringing punk, math, rock and groove into our ears and hearts. You can catch them live this Sunday at Simmer Huang in Newark. More information on Instagram at @ateliercollective, as always link in our show notes.  I'm your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight's show is in honor of Trans Day of Visibility. I'm here in conversation with Jean and Hải from QTViệt Cafe, which is a project of Asian Refugees United. And eri oura from Lavender Phoenix. Before the break we explored where trans resistance is showing up across our communities. Now I want to turn towards what sustains us, what keeps us rooted, nourished and connected as we continue dreaming and building together. So my next question: what kind of trans joy or wisdom has carried you through this past year? Jean Phạm (they/them): I wanna uplift what Hải I had shared at the very beginning. The Vietnamese concept of chia buồn. Sharing sadness. We can survive if we each just take a little piece. The community takes a small morsel of someone's burden and helps lift them up and share it. I really experienced that a couple weeks ago when my maternal grandmother passed away. And I think one of the biggest I feel tragedies is we're all just trying to survive. Purchasing power definitely creates a difference, but the reality is in our terms of just lived experience, we're just one or two paychecks from just full on destitution, you know? so we really rely on each other. When I heard that my grandma passed away, it was really hard for me because one is just going back to family is such a traumatic ordeal, and two, the flights were just logistically expensive. I just commiserated to one of my friends I had to do an overnight train down, which is maybe 10 hours. I mean, it's fine. I've done it many times before. But I think as an act of care and mutual aid, my friends organized behind my back and were able to give me enough so that I could get a flight and not really think about the logistics so much so that I could just focus on being present and also deal with the mental load of being around my family again. To me that was an expression of trans joy in terms of all these relationships I had built, really came through and I wasn't expecting it to, you know. One constant reflection I had was like, when people are grieving, am I just nice to them? Because I was like, I don't think so. Maybe, you know, it's hard to tell. But people really came through. And I think that really lifts me up and really I think about it so often. Being able to share in everyone's sadness. I'll also share within my close group of friends, I have this little scheme or theory called the Screaming Girl Theory. In a given week, only one of us can be the screaming crying girl and everyone has to support her. And then it rotates. In the scheme of things, it's like, oh God, we're all people of color who are all queer, trans or just have a touching point of just being oppressed in some way. If someone's like, oh no, I'm having such a hard time because I'm depressed, I have anxiety, I'm a queer person of color. You know, that type of rhetoric. It's hard in our space 'cause it's like me too. Everyone's going through it. So I think moments where we can share in that and rotate taking care of each other is really what has been keeping me going. And I also think it's nice to care for other people too. That's probably the final realization. People like helping, and giving people opportunities to help. I think it does induce a nice feeling and we may not always be well resourced or have the capacity to, but when we can, when we offer help to people, I think that's something people generally wanna do in service of the community. eri oura (they/them): I love this question because again, I feel like joy is so important right? In our fight for liberation, for Justice as trans folks, gender expansive folks. I mean, honestly, being with other queer and trans folks is such a joy. When we're marching in the streets together, when we're organizing doing the back end work of creating the space for each other to feel safe. And not just safe, but also seen and held. Not only is it joyful, but it's healing. When I think about trans justice, I think about healing justice as a intersection that we hold together. It's inseparable, honestly. I do think that there is a lot of grief, a lot of hurt, a lot of trauma that we have to endure in this world and sometimes we inflicted on each other. But when we can turn that around and really face each other in those hard moments. It makes such a difference in the quality of our relationships. The depth of how much we can access within ourselves. We as trans and queer folks, it doesn't matter what the state is trying to impose on us, trying to erase our existence, they have been doing that forever. They have been trying to eliminate us in this colonial context. It really is the joy that keeps us buoyant, that keeps us connected to the light of the universe that keeps us connected to each other. When other people who don't understand transness see us in our joy, they just see joy and that makes it attractive. That makes it something they wanna be a part of. The fact that we have learned to put words to who we are in the deeper ways that words have evolved into is us really just trying to fit into this context of colonialism, meaning making, all of these things that I think are powerful tools, powerful skills to have. At the root of everything is we know we are a network that supports each other to exist. And being able to put words to that is such a gift. Without the words we communicate with each other in ways we see each other in ways that I don't think people who are stuck in narrow binaries can actually see or feel or understand. For whatever reason that makes them angry. Their anger is just more fuel for us to lean into joy because it's not even about them. We can have conversations, we can try to justify our joy and our existence, but at the end of the day when the sun goes down, we are who we are, and in the light it might be easier to see how magical we are, but in the darkness, I think. We glow in a way that people who are limited in their thinking are not able to. They can't tap into that light. Hải Võ: I used to hide a lot. I used to hide who I was in order to think that I would feel safe. Hide my queerness. Hide my transness. Because there were assumed fears that my parents being conservative Catholic that I would be reprimanded and then, that happened. There was a period of that very tragic dark times. Looking back at that, I think I needed to experience that in order to fully understand how deeply organized systems can be traumatic and be deeply problematic. And also lessons in how do we actually better organize our systems to not perpetuate discrimination, violence and trauma. All that to say, I think that part of trans joy in the last year is instead of being less, getting smaller, being less than, hiding, actually, trans joy is just what you were saying, eri. Actually just being more me. Being more truthful. More honest. I've been on a healing journey with my dad the last year. We've been estranged for five years since my mom passed. I had gone to come to peace with, potentially not talking to my dad for a while. But I think that innately part of being Viet and wanting to reconnect with Vietnam is to try to connect with my dad as a portal or as a throughway to Vietnam. I took both the risk and the opportunity to reconnect with my dad with the hopes that we could heal our relationship. And just as much as I've gone through my own journey on transness and queerness, my dad has also too. There's been a lot of apologies, A lot of me unearthing and upending a lot of my own truths and just being really honest about who I am and being more comfortable and more grounded in what I want to do in my life. My dad has too. As hard as the tensions are, and even if in the moment, our elders, our people, our families might not be voting in the ways that we want them to vote or be against the policies and practices that counter who we are. I think I'm hopeful for just being more honest with myself and getting out of our comfort zones and unease in order to really surface what needs to be said. That's one. Two is, I just love meeting with our queer and trans elders. I think that's been part of our joy. Shout out to Sống Thật, the first queer Viet radio show in San Jose. They literally just were like, we're gonna take community college classes on radio and we want a show. We just wanna share that experience to dismantle a lot of the stereotypes. And so I think a lot of the, the trans joy that I'm experiencing is just we just gotta do it. We just gotta try it. I'm learning with our ancestors. Learning with our elders and just being like, we gotta try, we gotta do and yeah. I'll check there. Mm-hmm.  Cheryl Truong (she/they): And that's the end of our show. If you're. Curious about the incredible work being done at Lavender Phoenix, Asian Refugees United, QTViệt Cafe, Mugworts, and Under Painting Collective, check out the links in show notes and learn more about how these groups are building trans and queer aAPI power, culture and care in our communities. You can access the show notes at kpfa.org/programs/apex-express.  Before we close out, I want to take a moment to uplift a campaign that is very close to my heart. Pardon APSC 4. Some of you listening may already be familiar with this campaign, they've been on our show before. Pardon APSC4 is a demand to Governor Newsom to pardon the APSC 4 which are Borey “Peejay” Ai, Nghiep “Ke” Lam, Chanton Bun, and Maria Legarda. Our beloved family members, the APSC 4 are at risk of deportation. We are asking you our listeners to join us in telling the governor to pardon them now so they can remain home with their families and communities. The APSC 4 are childhood survivors of violence and trauma. They are impacted by bullying, poverty, war, and domestic violence. Like so many others, they were funneled into the criminal legal system as youth. While incarcerated, they became leaders. They completed self-help and educational programs. They mentored others and committed themselves to healing and transformation. Each one of them have earned release through California's parole process and were affirmed for release by both the board of parole hearings and Governor Newsom himself. But instead of being allowed to return home, ICE was contacted and now they face deportation simply because of where they were born. That is what's called double punishment. A racist and unjust system that targets immigrants and refugees after they've already served their time. The APSC 4 are not just individuals. They are community leaders. As part of the Asian Prisoners Support Committee, an organization, which centers formerly incarcerated leadership, Peejay, Ke, Bun, and Maria provide reentry support. They mentor at risk youth and they lead workshops on the school to prison, to deportation pipeline. They are change-makers. They are caregivers. They are parents. They are our community. And despite everything that they've given and everything that they continue to do, they live in an immigration limbo. Under the threat of deportation by a system designed to disappear them. So we are calling on Governor Newsom to stop ICE from deporting the APSC4.  We are calling on Governor Newsom to grant them pardons. To learn more and take action, please visit bit.ly/APSC4.  That is B I T dot L Y slash APSC. You can sign a petition, write a letter and help us keep our people home. Please join us in the fight to keep APSC4 home. Thank you. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong  Cheryl Truong: Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – March 27, 2025 – Trans Day of Visibility appeared first on KPFA.

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is not the past. It is the stories we tell about the past. How we tell these stories – triumphantly or self-critically, metaphysically or dialectally – has a lot to do with whether we cut short or advance our evolution as human beings.” In our current chaotic time, it feels like we are intentionally ignoring history. Our lack of awareness feels like a de-evolution, as our education department is gutting, books are banned, and so many American institutions are at risk, it feels as though a critical analysis of history is being ignored.  On Tonight's APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Wong Kim Ark and the importance of Birthright Citizenship. She speaks with historian David Lei, Reverend Deb Lee and lawyer/educator Annie Lee and activist Nick Gee. Discussed by Our Guests: What You Can Do To Protect Birthright Citizenship Our history is tied to the legacy of Wong Kim Ark and birthright citizenship, and it will take ongoing advocacy to protect this fundamental right. Here are four ways you can stay involved in the work ahead: Invite a friend to attend an event as part of Chinese for Affirmative Action's weeklong series commemorating Wong Kim Ark. Take action and oppose Trump's executive order banning birthright citizenship. Learn about Wong Kim Ark and Trump's executive order to end birthright citizenship. Sign up to join Stop AAPI Hate's Many Roots, One Home campaign to fight back against Trump's anti-immigrant agenda.   How you can get engaged to protect immigrants: https://www.im4humanintegrity.org/ https://www.bayresistance.org/ Bay Area Immigration: 24 Hour Hotlines San Francisco 415-200-1548 Alameda County 510-241-4011 Santa Clara County 408-290-1144 Marin County 415-991-4545 San Mateo County 203-666-4472   Know Your Rights (in various Asian languages) Thank you to our guests and Chinese for Affirmative Action for the clip from Wong Kim Ark's great grandson Norman Wong   Show Transcript: Wong Kim Ark Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Miko Lee: [00:00:35] Grace Lee Boggs said history is not the past. It is the stories we tell about the past, how we tell these stories. Triumphantly or self critically metaphysically or dialectically, has a lot to do with whether we cut short or advance our evolution as human beings. I. Well, in our current chaotic times, it feels like we are intentionally ignoring history. Our lack of awareness feels like a de-evolution. As our education department is gutted and books are banned, and so many of our American institutions are at risks, it feels as though a critical analysis of history is just being intentionally ignored. So welcome to Apex Express. I'm your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we're gonna delve back into a moment of history that is very much relevant in our contemporary world. Tonight's show is about long Kim Ark. There's a famous black and white photo of a Chinese American man. His hair is pulled back with a large forehead on display, wide open eyes with eyebrows slightly raised, looking at the camera with an air of confidence and innocence. He is wearing a simple mandarin collared shirt, one frog button straining at his neck, and then two more near his right shoulder. The date stamp is November 15th, 1894. His name is Wong Kim Ark. Tonight we hear more about his story, why it is important, what birthright citizenship means, and what you could do to get involved. So stay tuned. Welcome, David Lei, former social worker, community activist, lifelong San Franciscan, and amazing community storyteller. Welcome to Apex Express.    David Lei: [00:02:21] Thank you, Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:02:23] Can you first start with a personal question and tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    David Lei: [00:02:31] I'm now on the board of Chinese Historical Society of America. Chinese American History is pretty important to me for my identity and the story of Chinese in America is American history, and that's where I'm at now.   Miko Lee: [00:02:50] And what legacy do you carry with you from your ancestors?    David Lei: [00:02:56] To pass on the wisdom they pass to me to future descendants. But I'm here in America, so I know after a few generations, my descendants won't look like me. Most likely they won't speak Chinese. They're going to be Americans. So. The lessons and values and wisdoms, my ancestors passed to me, I'm passing to America.   Miko Lee: [00:03:30] we are talking on this episode about Wong Kim Ark and as a community storyteller, I wonder if you can take me back to that time, take me back to Wong Kim Ark growing up in San Francisco, Chinatown, what was happening in San Francisco, Chinatown at that time    David Lei: [00:03:48] Okay, this is the end of the 19th century and we have the Exclusion Act in 1882 where Chinese were excluded from coming to America with few exceptions like merchants, diplomats, and scholars. So if you're Chinese and you're a laborer you just can't come. And there were concerns about. Going, even if you were here, there's a process for your return, the documents you will need. But even that was iffy. But for Chinese in general, there was birthright citizenship. So if you were born here, you have citizenship and that because of the 14th amendment. So many Chinese thought birthright citizenship was important 'cause you can vote, you have more rights, less chance that you will be deported. So the Chinese, born in America, right at 1895, formed a Chinese American Citizens Alliance. The concept of being a American citizen was in everybody's mind in Chinatown at that time. The Chinese been fighting for this birthright citizenship ever since the Exclusion Act. Before Wong Kim Ark, there was Look Tin Sing in the matter regarding Look Tin Sing was a CA federal Court of Appeal case. Look Tin Sing was born in Mendocino, so he's American born. He assumed he was a citizen. His parents sent him back to China before the Exclusion Act, and when he came back after the Exclusion Act, of course he didn't have the paperwork that were required , but he was born here. So to prove that he was a citizen. He had to have a lawyer and had to have white witness, and it went to the federal Court of Appeal, ninth Circuit, and the Chinese sixth company. The City Hall for Chinatown knew this was important for all Chinese, so gave him a lawyer, Thomas Den, and he won the case. Then in 1888, this happened again with a guy named Hong Yin Ming. He was held and he had to go to the Federal Court of Appeal to win again, then Wong Kim Ark 1895. He was stopped and. This time, the Chinese six company, which is a city hall for Chinatown they really went all out. They hired two of the best lawyers money could buy. The former deputy Attorney General for the United States, one of which was the co-founder of the American Bar Association. So these were very expensive, influential lawyers. And because Wong Kim Ark was a young man under 25, he was a cook, so he was poor, but the community backed him. And went to the Supreme Court and won because it was a Supreme Court case. It took precedent over the two prior cases that only went to the Court of Appeal.    Now you might think, here's a guy who has a Supreme Court case that says he's an American citizen. Well, a few years later in 1901, Wong Kim Ark went to Mexico to Juarez. When he came back to El Paso the immigration stopped him at El Paso and says, no you are just a cook. you're not allowed to come in because we have the 1882 Exclusion Act. Wong Kim Ark Says, I have a Supreme Court case saying I'm a US citizen, and the El Paso newspaper also had an article that very week saying they're holding a US citizen who has a Supreme Court case in his favor saying that he is a US citizen. However, immigration still held him for four months in El Paso. I think just to hassle. To make it difficult. Then by 1910, Wong Kim Ark had a few sons in China that he wants to bring to the us so he arranged for his first son to come to America in 1910. His first son was held at Angel Island. Interrogated did not pass, so they deported his firstborn son. So he says, wow, this is my real son, and he can't even get in. So this is dealing with immigration and the US laws and the racist laws is unending. Just because you win the Supreme Court case, that doesn't mean you're safe as we are seeing now. So it takes the community, takes a lot of effort. It takes money to hire the best lawyers. It takes strategizing. It takes someone to go to jail, habeas corpus case oftentimes to test the laws. And even when you win, it's not forever. It's constantly challenged. So I think that's the message in the community. Chinese community had push back on this and have pushed for Birthright citizenship from the very beginning of the Exclusion Act.    Miko Lee: [00:09:48] Thank you so much for that. David. Can we go back a little bit and explain for our audience what the Six Companies meant to Chinatown?    David Lei: [00:09:57] From the very beginning, there were a lot of laws racist laws that were anti-Chinese, and the Chinese always felt they needed representation. Many of the Chinese did not speak English, did not understand the laws, so they formed the Chinese Six Companies. Officially known as the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association. most Chinese come from just the six districts from Guangdong Province. They're like counties. However, in China, each counties most likely will have their own dialect. Unintelligible to the county next to them. They will have their own food ways, their own temples. almost like separate countries. So there were six major counties where the Chinese in America came from. So each county sent representatives to this central organization called the Chinese six companies, and they represented the Chinese in America initially in all of America. Then later on, different states set up their own Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, so they would tax their own membership or get their own membership to pay fees. They had in-house lawyers to negotiate with city government, state government, federal government, and they would raise the money. They were the GoFundMe of their days. Almost every month they were hiring lawyers to protect some Chinese, somewhere in America against unfair unjust laws. The Chinese six company was very important to the Chinese in America, and they were the first to really push back on the Chinese exclusion Act between 1882 and 1905. 105,000 Chinese in America after the exclusion Act sued a federal government more than 10,000 times. This is about 10% of the Chinese population in America, sued the federal government. I'm not including state government, counties nor municipalities. This is just the federal government. About 10% of the Chinese here sued and almost 30 of these went to the Federal Supreme Court, and it was the sixth company that organized many of these winning for all Americans and not just the Chinese right. To a public education. Even if you are an immigrant tape versus Hurley in 1885. Then we have the Yick Wo versus Hopkins case that gave equal protection under law for everyone. Now, the 14th Amendment does have this clause equal protection under law, but everybody thought that meant you had to write a law that was equal for everybody. But in the case of Yick Wo versus Hopkins, it was also important that the law is executed and administered equally for everyone. That's the first time where it was made very clear that equal protection under law also means the administration and the execution of the law. So that is the core of American Civil Rights and the Chinese won this case for all Americans. Of course, Wong Kim Ark.    The concept of political asylum, public law 29 was a Chinese case passed by Congress in 1921, and then we have Miranda Act. If you look into the Miranda Act, it was based on a Chinese case, 1924 Ziang Sun Wan versus the US two Chinese were accused of murder in Washington DC They were tortured, denied sleep. Denied food, denied attorneys, so they confessed. But when it came to trial. They said we didn't do it, we confessed 'cause we were tortured and they won in the Supreme Court, but it was a Washington DC case only applicable to federal jurisdictions. So when Miranda came up, the Supreme Court said, well, we decided this in 1924, but now we'll just make it applicable to state, county and municipality. And then of course, as recently as 1974 Chinese for affirmative action helped bring the Lao versus Nichols case. Where now is required to have bilingual education for immigrant students, if there are enough of them to form a class where they can be taught math, science, history in their original language. These and many more. The Chinese brought and won these cases for all Americans, but few people know this and we just don't talk about it.    Miko Lee: [00:15:35] David, thank you so much for dropping all this knowledge on us. I did not know that the Miranda rights comes from Asian Americans. That's powerful. Yes. And so many other cases. I'm wondering, you said that Chinese Americans and the six companies sued, did you say 10,000 times?    David Lei: [00:15:53] We have 10,000 individual cases. In many of these cases, the Chinese six company helped provide a lawyer or a vice.    Miko Lee: [00:16:03] And where did that come from? Where did that impetus, how did utilizing the legal system become so imbued in their organizing process?   David Lei: [00:16:14] Well, because it worked even with the exclusion act, during the exclusion period most Chinese. Got a lawyer to represent them, got in something like 80%. In many of the years, 80% of the Chinese that hire a lawyer to help them with the immigration process were omitted. So the Chinese knew the courts acted differently from politics. The Chinese did not have a vote. So had no power in the executive branch nor the legislative branch. But they knew if they hire good lawyers, they have power in the court. So regardless of whether their fellow Americans like them or not legally the Chinese had certain rights, and they made sure they received those rights. By organizing, hiring the best lawyers, and this was a strategy. suing slowed down after 1905 because the Chinese lost a important case called Ju Toy versus the us. The Supreme Court decided that since the Chinese sue so much, their courts of appeal were tied up with all these cases. So the Supreme Court says from now on, the Supreme Court will give up his rights to oversight on the executive branch when it comes to immigration because the Chinese sue too much. And that's why today the executive branch. Has so much power when it comes to immigration, cause the court gave up the oversight rights in this ju toy versus the US in 1905. So if we go to the history of the law a lot of the legal policies we live in today, were. Pushback and push for by the Chinese, because the Chinese were the first group that were excluded denied these rights. but the Chinese were very organized one of the most organized group and push back. And that's why we have all these laws that the Chinese won.    Miko Lee: [00:18:30] And in your deep knowledge of all this history of these many cases, what do you think about what is happening right now with all the conversations around birthright citizenship? Can you put that into a historical perspective?    David Lei: [00:18:44] So being an American. We always have to be on the guard for our rights. Who would've thought Roe v. Wade would be overturned? So all these things can be challenged. America's attitude change. Civil disobedience, the Chinese are actually, we have on record the largest number of people practicing civil disobedience over a long period of time. In 1892, when the Exclusion Act, Chinese Exclusion Act had to be renewed, they added this. New requirement that every Chinese must carry a certificate of residency with their photo on it. Well, this is like a internal passport. No one had to have this internal passport, but they made the Chinese do it. So the Chinese six company. Says, no, this is not right. Only dogs need to carry a license around to identify. Itself and only criminals needs to register with a state. And we Chinese are not dogs and we're not criminals, so we're not going to do it 'cause no one else needs to do it. So the six company told all the Chinese 105,000 Chinese not to register. 97% refuse to register. In the meantime, the six companies sued the federal government again. Saying the Federal Go government cannot do this. The Chinese lost this case in the Supreme Court and everybody then had to register, but they didn't register until two years later, 1894. So they held. Held out for two years.   Miko Lee: [00:20:31] How many people was that?    David Lei: [00:20:32] About a hundred thousand. 97% of the 105,000 Chinese refused to do this. So if you look at these certificate of residencies that the Chinese were forced to carry. They were supposed to register in 1892. Almost all of them are 1894. Some of them in fact many of them are May, 1894, the last second that you can register before they start deporting you. So the Chinese. Also practiced civil disobedience and the largest incidents, a hundred thousand people for two years.    Miko Lee: [00:21:15] How did they communicate with each other about that?   David Lei: [00:21:18] The Chinese were very well connected through the six companies, their district association, their surname association oftentimes because of. The racism segregation, the Chinese were forced to live in Chinatowns or relied on their own network. To support each other. So there, there's a lot of letter writing and a lot of institutions, and they kept in touch.That network was very powerful. In fact, the network to interpret a law for everybody interpret uh, any rules of business, and. Just how to conduct themselves in America. They have a lot of institutions doing that. We still have them in the 24 square blocks we call Chinatown. We have almost 300 organizations helping the immigrants. Chinese there with language, with how to do your taxes tutoring for their kids. Advice on schools paying their bills and so on. We have surnames associations, we have district associations, we have gills, we have fraternal organizations, and we certainly have a lot of nonprofits. So it's very, very supportive community. And that's always been the case.    Miko Lee: [00:22:42] I'm wondering what you feel like we can learn from those organizers today. A hundred thousand for civil disobedience. And we're often portrayed as the model minority people just follow along. That's a lot of people during that time. And what do you think we can learn today from those folks that organize for civil disobedience and the Chinese Exclusion Act?    David Lei: [00:23:03] It takes a community. One person can't do it. You have to organize. You have to contribute. You have to hire the best lawyers, the very best. In fact, with the Yik Wo versus Hopkins case, the equal protection under law, the Chinese immediately raised 20,000 equivalent to half a million. It takes collective action. It takes money. You just have to support this to keep our rights.    Miko Lee: [00:23:29] And lastly, what would you like our audience to understand about Wong Kim Ark?    David Lei: [00:23:35] Well, Wong Kim Ark, he was just an average person, a working person that the immigration department made life miserable for him. Is very difficult to be an immigrant anytime, but today is even worse. We have to have some empathy. He was the test case, but there were so many others. I mentioned Look Tin Sing, whose adult name is Look Tin Eli. We know a lot about Look Tin Eli and then this other Hong Yin Ming in 1888 before Wong Kim Ark and so generations of generations of immigrants. Have had a hard time with our immigration department. It's just not a friendly thing we do here. And you know, we're all descendants of immigrants unless you're a Native American. Like I mentioned Look Tin Sing, who was the first case that I could find. For birthright citizenship. His mother was Native American, but Native American didn't even get to be citizens until 1924. You know, that's kind of really strange. But that was the case.    Miko Lee: [00:24:50] That's very absurd in our world.    David Lei: [00:24:52] Yes, Chinatown is where it is today because of Look Tin Sing, his adult name, Look Tin Eli. He saved Chinatown after the earthquake. He's the one that organized all the business people to rebuild Chinatown like a fantasy Chinese land Epcot center with all the pagoda roofs, and he's the one that saved Chinatown. Without him and his Native American mother, we would've been moved to Hunter's Point after the earthquake. He later on became president of the China Bank and also president of the China Mayo Steamship Line. So he was an important figure in Chinese American history, but he had to deal with immigration.   Miko Lee: [00:25:39] David Lei, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. I appreciate hearing this story and folks can find out when you are part of a panel discussion for Wong Kim Ark week, right?    David Lei: [00:25:50] Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:25:51] Great. We will be able to see you there. Thank you so much for being on Apex Express. Annie Lee, managing director of Policy at Chinese for affirmative action. Welcome to Apex Express.    Annie Lee: [00:26:01] Thank you so much for having me Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:26:02] I wanna just start with this, a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Annie Lee: [00:26:10] I am the daughter of monolingual working class Chinese immigrants. And so I would say my people hail from Southern China and were able to come to the United States where I was born and was allowed to thrive and call this place home. I do this work at Chinese for Affirmative Action on their behalf and for other folks like them.    Miko Lee: [00:26:31] Thanks Annie, Today we're recording on March 17th, and I'm noting this because as we know, things are changing so quickly in this chaotic administration. By the time this airs on Thursday, things might change. So today's March 17th. Can you as both an educator and a lawyer, give me a little bit of update on where birthright citizenship, where does it stand legally right now?    Annie Lee: [00:26:55] As an educator and a lawyer, I wanna situate us in where birthright citizenship lives in the law, which is in the 14th Amendment. So the 14th Amendment has a birthright citizenship clause, which is very clear, and it states that people who were born in the United States, in subject to the laws thereof are United States citizens. The reason. This clause was explicitly added into the 14th Amendment, was because of chattel slavery in the United States and how this country did not recognize the citizenship of enslaved African Americans for generations. And so after the Civil War and the Union winning that war and the ends of slavery . We had to make African Americans citizens, they had to be full citizens in the eye of the law. And that is why we have the 14th Amendment. And that clause of the 14th Amendment was later litigated all the way to the Supreme Court by Wong Kim Ark, who was born in San Francisco, like me, two Chinese immigrant parents. When he left the United States, he went to China to visit his family. He tried to come back. They wouldn't let him in. and he said, I am a citizen because I was born in the United States and this clause in your 14th amendment, our 14th amendment says that I'm a citizen. It went all the way to Supreme Court and the Supreme Court agreed with Wong Kim Ark. Does not matter your parents' citizenship status. Everyone born in the United States is a US citizen, except for a very, very narrow set of exceptions for the kids of foreign diplomats that really is not worth getting into. Everyone is born. Everyone who's born in the United States is a citizen. Okay? So then you all know from Trump's executive order on day one of his second presidency that he is attempting to upends this very consistent piece of law, and he is using these fringe, outlandish legal arguments that we have never heard before and has never merited any discussion because it is just. Facially incorrect based on the law and all of the interpretation of the 14th amendment after that amendment was ratified. So he is using that to try to upend birthright citizenship. There have been a number of lawsuits. Over 10 lawsuits from impacted parties, from states and there have been three federal judges in Maryland, Washington State, and New Hampshire, who have issued nationwide injunctions to stop the executive order from taking effect. That means that despite what Trump says in his executive order. The birthright citizenship clause remains as it is. So any child born today in the United States is still a citizen. The problem we have is that despite what three judges now issuing a nationwide injunction, the Trump's government has now sought assistance from the Supreme Court to consider his request to lift the nationwide pause on his executive order. So the justices, have requested filings from parties by early April, to determine whether or not a nationwide injunction is appropriate. This is extraordinary. This is not the way litigation works in the United States. Usually you let the cases proceed. In the normal process, which goes from a district court to an appeals court, and then eventually to the Supreme Court if it gets appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court. This is very different from the normal course of action and I think very troubling.    Miko Lee: [00:30:36] So can you talk a little bit about that? I know we constantly say in this administration it's unprecedented, but talk about how there's three different states that have actually filed this injunction. , how typical is that for then it or it to then go to the Supreme Court?    Annie Lee: [00:30:53] Just to clarify, it's not three different states. It's judges in three different states. In fact, more than many, many states, 18 more than 18 states. There have been two lawsuits related, brought by states one that California was a part of that had multiple states over 18 states as well as San Francisco and District of Columbia. Then there was another lawsuit brought by another set of states. and so many states are opposed to this, for different reasons. I find their complaints to be very, very compelling. Before I get into the fact that multiple judges have ruled against the Trump administration, I did want to explain that the reason states care about this is because birthright citizenship is not an immigration issue. Birthright citizenship is just a fundamental issue of impacting everyone, and I really want people to understand this. If you are white and born in the United States, you are a birthright citizen. If you are black and born in the United States, you are a birthright citizen. It is a fallacy to believe that birthright citizenship only impacts immigrants. That is not true. I am a mother and I gave birth to my second child last year, so I've been through this process. Every person who gives birth in the United States. You go to the hospital primarily, they talk to you after your child is born about how to get a social security card for your child. All you have to do is have your child's birth certificate. That is how every state in this country processes citizenship and how the federal government processes citizenship. It is through a birth certificate, and that is all you need. So you go to your health department in your city, you get the birth certificate, you tell, then you get your social security card. That is how everyone does it. If you change this process, it will impact every state in this country and it will be very, very cumbersome. Which is why all of these states, attorneys general, are up in arms about changing birthright citizenship. It is just the way we function. That again applies to re regardless of your parents' immigration status. This is an issue that impacts every single American. Now, to your question as to what does it mean if multiple judges in different states, in different federal district courts have all ruled against. Donald Trump, I think it really means that the law is clear. You have judges who ha are Reagan appointees saying that the birthright citizenship clause of the 14th amendment is crystal clear. It has, it is clear in terms of the text. If you are a textualist and you read exactly what the text says, if you believe in the context of, The 14th Amendment. If you look at the judicial history and just how this clause has been interpreted since ratification, like everything is consistent, this is not an area of law that has any gray area. And you see that because different judges in different district courts in Maryland, in Washington, in New Hampshire all have cited against Donald Trump.    Miko Lee: [00:33:54] So what is the intention of going to the Supreme Court?    Annie Lee: [00:33:59] I mean, he is trying to forum shop. He's trying to get a court that he believes will favor his interpretation and that is why the right has spent the last half century stacking federal courts. And that is why Mitch McConnell did not let Barack Obama replace Antonin Scalia. The composition of the Supreme Court is. So, so important, and you can see it at times like this.    Miko Lee: [00:34:28] But so many of the conservatives always talk about being constitutionalists, like really standing for the Constitution. So how do those things line up?   Annie Lee: [00:34:38] Oh, Miko, that's a great question. Indeed, yes, if they were the textualist that they say they are, this is a pretty clear case, but, Law is not as cut and dry as people think it is. It is obviously motivated by politics and that means law is subject to interpretation.   Miko Lee: [00:34:59] Annie, thank you so much for this breakdown. Are there any things that you would ask? Are people that are listening to this, how can they get involved? What can they do?    Annie Lee: [00:35:09] I would recommend folks check out StopAAPIHate. We are having monthly town halls as well as weekly videos to help break down what is happening. There's so much news and misinformation out there but we are trying to explain everything to everyone because these anti-immigration. Policies that are coming out be, this is anti-Asian hate and people should know that. You can also check out resources through Chinese for affirmative action. Our website has local resources for those of you who are in the Bay Area, including the rapid response lines for bay Area counties if you need any services, if you. See ICE. , if you want to know where their ICE is in any particular location, please call your rapid response line and ask them for that verifiable information. Thank you.    Miko Lee: [00:36:00] Thank you so much, Annie Lee for joining us today on Apex.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:04] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.   Miko Lee: [00:36:23] Welcome, Nicholas Gee from Chinese for affirmative action. Welcome to Apex Express.    Nicholas Gee: [00:36:29] Thanks so much, Miko. Glad to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:36:31] I'm so glad that you could join us on the fly. I wanted to first just start by asking you a personal question, which is for you to tell me who you are,, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you.   Nicholas Gee: [00:36:46] I'll start off by saying Miko, thanks so much for having me. My name is Nicholas Gee and I am a third and or fourth generation Chinese American, born and raised in Houston, Texas. And for me, what that means is, is that my great-great-grandparents and great-grandparents migrated from Southern China, fleeing war and famine and looking for opportunity in the middle of the early, like 19 hundreds. And they wanted to start an opportunity here for future generations like me. My people are my family who migrated here over a hundred years ago. who were settling to start a new life. My people are also the people that I advocate with, the Language Access network of San Francisco, the Immigrant Parent Voting Collaborative, my colleagues at Chinese for affirmative action and stop AAPI hate. I think about my people as the people that I'm advocating with on the ground day to day asking and demanding for change.   Miko Lee: [00:37:41] Thank you. And what legacy do you carry with you?    Nicholas Gee: [00:37:45] I carry the legacy of my elders, particularly my grandparents who immigrated here in around the 1940s or so. And when I think about their legacy, I think a lot about the legacy of immigration, what it means to be here, what it means to belong, and the fight for advocacy and the work that I do today.    Miko Lee: [00:38:05] Thanks so much, Nick, and we're here doing this show all about Wong Kim Ark, and I know Chinese for affirmative action has planned this whole week-long celebration to bring up as we're talking about legacy, the legacy of Wong Kim Ark. Can you talk about how this one week celebration came to be and what folks can expect?    Nicholas Gee: [00:38:26] Yeah. As folks may know we are in the midst of many executive orders that have been in place and one of them being the executive order to end birthright citizenship. And Wong Kim Ark was actually born and raised in San Francisco's Chinatown, particularly on seven. 51 Sacramento Street. In the heart of the community and local partners here in this city, we're really trying to figure out how do we advocate and protect birthright citizenship? How do we bring momentum to tell the story of Wong Kim Ark in a moment when birthright citizenship is, in the process of being removed And so we really wanted to create some momentum around the storytelling, around the legacy of Wong Kim Ark, but also the legal implications and what it means for us to advocate and protect for birthright citizenship. And so I joined a couple of our local partners and particularly our team at Chinese for affirmative action to develop and create the first ever Wong Kim Ark Week. Officially known as born in the USA and the Fight for Citizenship, a week long series of events, specifically to honor the 127th anniversary of the Landmark Supreme Court case, US versus Wong Kim Ark, which affirmed birthright citizenship for all in the United States.    Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What will happen during this week-long celebration?   Nicholas Gee: [00:39:48] We have several scheduled events to raise awareness, mobilize the community, and really to stand up for the rights of all immigrants and their families. One is an incredible book Talk in conversation with author and activist Bianca Boutte. Louie, who recently authored a book called Unassimilable. And she tells a personal narrative and provides a sharp analysis for us to think about race and belonging and solidarity in America, particularly through an Asian American lens. This event is hosted by the Chinese Historical Society of America. Following. We have a live in-person community symposium on Wong Kim Ark legacy and the struggle for citizenship. There'll be a powerful community conversation with legal advocates, storytellers, movement builders, to have a dynamic conversation on the impact of birthright citizenship. Who is Wong Kim Ark? What is his enduring legacy and how people can join us for the ongoing struggle for justice? And you know, we actually have a special guest, Norman Wong, who is the great grandson of Wong Kim Ark. He'll be joining us for this special event. We have a couple of more events. One is a Chinatown History and Art Tour hosted by Chinese Culture Center, this is a small group experience where community members can explore Chinatown's vibrant history, art, and activism, and particularly we'll learn about the legacy of Wong Kim Ark and then lastly, we have a in-person press conference that's happening on Friday, which is we're gonna conclude the whole week of, Wong Kim Ark with a birthright, citizenship resolution and a Wong Kim Ark dedication. And so we'll be celebrating his enduring impact on Birthright citizenship and really these ongoing efforts to protect, our fundamental right. and the San Francisco Public Library is actually hosting an Asian American and Pacific Islander book display at the North Beach campus and they'll be highlighting various books and authors and titles inspired by themes of migration, community, and resilience. So those are our scheduled, events We're welcoming folks to join and folks can register, and check out more information at casf.org/WongKimArk    Miko Lee: [00:42:04] Thanks so much and we will post a link to that in our show notes. I'm wondering how many of those are in Chinese as well as English?    Nicholas Gee: [00:42:13] That is a fantastic question, Miko. We currently have the community symposium on Wong Kim Ark legacy in the struggle for citizenship. This event will have live interpretation in both Mandarin and Cantonese.    Miko Lee: [00:42:46] What would you like folks to walk away with? An understanding of what.    Nicholas Gee: [00:42:30] We really want people to continue to learn about the legacy of birthright citizenship and to become an advocate with us. We also have some information on our website, around what you can do to protect birthright citizenship. As an advocate, we are always thinking about how do we get people involved, to think about civic engagement intentional education and to tie that back to our advocacy. And so we have a couple of ways that we're inviting people to take action with us. One is to invite a friend to consider attending one of our events. If you're based here in the San Francisco Bay area or if you're online, join us for the book Talk with Bianca. , two, we're inviting folks to take action and oppose the executive order to ban birthright citizenship. Chinese for affirmative action has. A call to action where we can actually send a letter to petition , to oppose this executive order to send a message directly to our congressman or woman. and lastly, you know, we're asking people to learn about Wong Kim Ark as a whole, and to learn about the impacts of birthright citizenship. My hope is that folks walk away with more of an understanding of what does it mean here to be an advocate? What does it mean to take action across the community and really to communicate this is what resilience will look like in our community    Miko Lee: [00:43:44] Nick Gee, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express. It was great to hear how people can get involved in the Wong Kim Ark week and learn more about actions and how they can get involved. We appreciate the work you're doing.    Nicholas Gee: [00:43:56] Thanks so much Miko, and I'm excited to launch this.   Miko Lee: [00:43:58] Welcome, Reverend Deb Lee, executive Director of Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity and part of the Network on Religion and justice. Thank you so much for coming on Apex Express.    Rev. Deb Lee: [00:44:09] Great to be here. Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:44:11] I would love you just personally to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Rev. Deb Lee: [00:44:17] Wow. Well, my people are people in the Chinese diaspora. My family's been in diaspora for seven generations, from southern China to southeast to Asia. and then eventually to the United States. What I carry with me is just a huge sense of resistance and this idea of like, we can survive anywhere and we take our love and our family and our ancestor we gotta carry it with us. We don't always have land or a place to put it down into the ground, and so we carry those things with us. , that sense of resistance and resilience.    Miko Lee: [00:44:56] Thank you so much. I relate to that so much as a fifth generation Chinese American. To me, it's really that sense of resilience is so deep and powerful, and I'm wondering as a person from the faith community, if you could share about the relevance of Wong Kim Ark and Birthright citizenship.   Rev. Deb Lee: [00:45:12] Yeah, Wong Kim Ark is critical because he was somebody who really fought back against racist laws and really asserted his right to be part of this country, his right to have the Constitution apply to him too. I'm just so grateful for him and so many of the other Chinese Americans who fought back legally and resisted against in that huge wave of period of Chinese exclusion to create some of the really important immigration laws that we have today. I wouldn't be a citizen without birthright citizenship myself. Wong Kim Ark really established that every person who is born on this soil has a right to constitutional protection, has a right to be a citizen. And in fact, the Constitution in the 14th Amendment also applies to let equal treatment for everyone here, everyone who is here. You don't even have to be a citizen for the constitutional rights. And the Fourth Amendment, the fifth Amendment, the first amendment to apply to you. And those things are so under attack right now. It's so important to establish the equality. Of every person and the right for people here in this country to have safety and belonging, that everyone here deserves safety and belonging.    Miko Lee: [00:46:24] Thank you so much for lifting up that activist history. as, a person who was raised in a theological setting at a seminary, I was really raised around this ethos of love as an active tool and a way of fighting for civil rights, fighting for things that we believe in. And I'm wondering if you could talk about how you see that playing out in today. And especially as you know, this Trump regime has had such incredible impacts on immigrants and on so much of our activist history. I'm wondering if you have thoughts on that?    Rev. Deb Lee: [00:47:00] Well, so much of the civil rights history in this country, you know, going back to like the activism of Chinese Americans to establish some of those civil rights. You know, it goes back to this idea of like, who is fully human, who can be fully human, whose humanity will be fully recognized? And so I think that's what's connects back to my faith and connects back to faith values of the sacredness of every person, the full humanity, the full participation, the dignity. And so I think, Wong Kim Ark and the other, like Chinese American activists, they were fighting for like, you know, we don't wanna just be, we're gonna just gonna be laborers. We're not just going to be people who you can, Bring in and kick out whenever you want, but like, we want to be fully human and in this context of this nation state, that means being fully citizens.And so I think that that struggle and that striving to say we want that full humanity to be recognized, that is a fundamental kind of belief for many faith traditions, which, you know, speak to the radical equality of all people and the radical dignity of all people, that can't be taken away, but that has to really be recognized. What's under attack right now is. So much dehumanization, stigmatization of people, you know, based on race, based on class, based on gender, based on what country people were born in, what papers they carry, you know, if they ever had contact, prior contact with the law, like all these things. You know, are immediately being used to disregard someone's humanity. And so I think those of us who come from a faith tradition or who just share that kind of sense of, value and, deep humanism in other people, that's where we have to root ourselves in this time in history and really being, you know, we are going to defend one another's humanity and dignity, at all costs.   Miko Lee: [00:48:55] Thank you for that. I'm wondering if there are other lessons that we can learn from Wong Kim Ark, I mean, the time when he fought back against, this was so early in 1894, as you mentioned, the Chinese exclusion acts and I'm wondering if there are other lessons that we can learn from him in, in our time when we are seeing so many of our rights being eroded.   Rev. Deb Lee: [00:49:17] I think that there's so many ways, that we think about how did people organize then like, you know, it's challenging to organize now, but if you can imagine organizing then, and I'm thinking, you know, when Chinese people were required to carry identification papers and you know, on mass they refused to do that and they. Practice, like a form of civil disobedience. And I think we're at this time now, like the Trump administration's telling anybody here who's unauthorized to come forward and to register well, I think people need to think twice about that. And people are, there are many other things that they're trying to impose on the immigrant community and I think one like lesson is like, how do people survive through a period of exclusion and we are today in a period of exclusion. That really goes back to the mid 1980s, when there was, last, a significant immigration reform that created a pathway to citizenship. Only for about 3 million people. But after that, since that time in the mid 1980s, there has been no other pathways to citizenship, no other forms of amnesty, no other ways for people to fix their status.So in fact, we are already in another 40 year period of exclusion again. And so one of those lessons is how do people survive this period? Like right, and left. They're taking away all the laws and protections that we had in our immigration system. They were very narrow already. Now even those are being eliminated and any form of compassion or discretion or leniency or understanding has been removed. So I think people are in a period of. Survival. How do we survive and get through? And a lot of the work that we're doing on sanctuary right now we have a sanctuary people campaign, a sanctuary congregations campaign is how do we walk alongside immigrants to whom there is no path. There is no right way. there is no opening right now. But walk with them and help support them because right now they're trying to squeeze people so badly that they will self deport. And leave on their own. This is part of a process of mass expulsion but if people really believe that they want to stay and be here, how do we help support people to get through this period of exclusion until there will be another opening? And I believe there will be like our, our history kind of spirals in and out, and sometimes there are these openings and that's something I take from the faith communities. If you look at Chinese American history in this country, the role that faith communities played in walking with the immigrant community and in supporting them, and there's many stories that help people get through that period of exclusion as well.   Miko Lee: [00:51:52] Deb, I'm wondering what you would say to folks. I'm hearing from so many people [say] I can't read the news. It's too overwhelming. I don't wanna get involved. I just have to take care of myself. And so I'm just waiting. And even James Carville, the political opponent, say we gotta play dead for a few years. What are your thoughts on this?    Rev. Deb Lee: [00:52:11] Well, we can't play totally dead. I wish the Democrats wouldn't be playing dead, but I think that a person of faith, we have to stay present we don't really have the option to check out and we actually have to be in tune with the suffering. I think it would be irresponsible for us to. You know, turn a blind eye to the suffering. And I wanna encourage people that actually opportunities to walk with people who are being impacted and suffering can actually be deeply, fulfilling and can help give hope and give meaning. And there are people who are looking for solidarity right now. We are getting a lot of calls every week for someone who just wants them, wants someone to go to their court or go to the ice, check-in with them, and literally just like walk three blocks down there with them and wait for them. To make sure they come out. And if they don't come out to call the rapid response hotline, it doesn't take much. But it's a huge act like this is actually what some of the immigrant communities are asking for, who are millions of people who are under surveillance right now and have to report in. So those small acts of kindness can be deeply rewarding in this. Sea of overwhelming cruelty. And I think we have an obligation to find something that we can do. , find a way, find a person, find someone that we can connect to support and be in solidarity with and think about people in our past. Who have accompanied us or accompanied our people and our people's journey. And when those acts of kindness and those acts of neighbors and acts of friendship have meant so much I know like my family, they still tell those stories of like, this one person, you know, in Ohio who welcome them and said hello. We don't even know their names. Those acts can be etched in people's hearts and souls. And right now people need us.    Miko Lee: [00:53:59] Oh, I love that. I've talked with many survivors of the Japanese American concentration camps, and so many of them talk about the people of conscience, meaning the people that were able to step up and help support them during, before and after that time. Lastly, I'm wondering, you're naming some really specific ways that people can get engaged, and I know you're deeply involved in the sanctuary movement. Can you provide us with ways that people can find out more? More ways to get involved in some of the work that you are doing.    Rev. Deb Lee: [00:54:29] I'll put a plug in for our website. It's www dot I am number four, human integrity.org. So it's, iam4humanintegrity.org. We work with families that are impacted facing deportation, looking for all kinds of ways to get the community to rally around folks and support and we work with faith communities who are thinking about how to become sanctuary congregations and how to be an important resource in your local community. The other organizations, I would say sign up for Bay Resistance. They're organizing a lot of volunteers that we call on all the time we're working with. We're, you know, working with many organizations, the Bay Area, to make sure that a new ice detention facility does not get built. They are looking at the potential site of Dublin. We've worked really hard the last decade to get all the detention centers out of Northern California. We don't want them to open up a new one here.   Miko Lee: [00:55:27] Deb Lee, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express and folks can actually see Deb on Tuesday night in Wong Kim Ark Week as one of the speakers. Thank you so much for joining us.    Rev. Deb Lee: [00:55:38] Thank you, Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:55:39] Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We're gonna close this episode with words from Norman Wong, the great grandson of Wong Kim Ark.   Norman Wong: [00:55:49] So let's fight back. Threats to birthright citizenship will only divide us, and right now we need to come together to continue the impact of my great grandfather's. This is my family's legacy, and now it's part of yours too. Thank you    Miko Lee: [00:56:11] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.    The post APEX Express – 3.20.25- Wong Kim Ark appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – March 13, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Winter Fund Drive: Mitch Jeserich talks with economist Richard Wolff. To support our mission and receive Professor Wolff's book Understanding Capitalism as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.   The post Special Winter Fund Drive Programming: Richard Wolff appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Winter Fund Drive. To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.   The post Special Winter Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2025 Winter Fund Drive. To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.   The post Special Winter Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee continues the series on the Asian Prisoner Support Committee's campaign for justice for the APSC 4. The APSC4 are Ke Lam, Peejay Ai, Chanthon Bun and Maria Legarda. All are formerly incarcerated folx who have served their time and are currently incredibly valued leaders, advocates and healers in the community. They are also part of the staff of Asian Prisoner Support Committee and all are at risk of deportation.  In our most recent episode we showcased an interview with all of the APSC4, in our upcoming shows we will center on each person's individual story. Tonight we focus on Maria Legarde. Thank you to the HHREC Podcast for allowing us to re-air a portion of their show, which will be linked in our show notes. Maria's story is also featured in the zine we was girls together by Trần Châu Hà. The zine is on display in the Walking Stories exhibit at Edge on the Square in San Francisco Chinatown until February 28th.  For more information: Thank you to the HHREC Podcast for allowing us to rebroadcast part of their interview with Maria. Asian American Histories of Resistance timeline For tickets to Edge on the Square event APSC 4: https://action.18mr.org/pardonapsc3/ APSC Website: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/ APSC Donation Page: https://donate.givedirect.org/?cid=13… APSC Get Involved Page: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/apsc-4 Appreciation to the HHRC Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@thehhrecpodcast83   Twitter:   / asianprisonersc   Facebook:   / asianprisonersupportcommittee   Instagram:   / asianprisonersc     SHOW TRANSCRIPT: APSC4 Part 2: Maria's Story   Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:02:01] Thank you for joining us tonight on Apex Express. Welcome to the second part in our series on the Asian Prisoner Support Committee's Campaign for Justice for the APSC4. The APSC4 are Ke Lam, Peejay Ai , Chanthon Bun, and Maria Legarda. All are formerly incarcerated folks who have served their time and are currently incredibly valued leaders, advocates, and healers in the community. They are also part of the staff of Asian Prisoner Support Committee, and all are at risk of deportation. You can help today by urging Governor Newsom to pardon APSC4, and protect them from deportation, which you can find the links for in our show notes. In our most recent episode, we showcased an interview with all of the APSC4. In our upcoming shows, we will center on each person's individual story. Tonight we focus on Maria Legarda. Thank you to the HHREC podcast for allowing us to re-air a portion of their show, which will be linked in our show notes. Maria's story is also featured in the zine we was girls together by Trần Châu Hà. The zine is on display in the Walking Stories exhibit at Edge on the Square in San Francisco Chinatown until February 28th. You can come view the zine in person at the Walking Stories closing event, arriving with our stories on February 28th, 2025, at Edge on the Square in San Francisco, Chinatown, from 6 to 8 pm. Co presented by Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, Asian Prisoner Support Committee and Edge on the Square, featuring readings from Asian Prisoner Support Committee's recent anthology, Arriving, Freedom Writings of Asian and Pacific Islanders, along with a panel discussion with the APSC4. Maria's story, the one we'll hear tonight, that is also featured in the exhibit, echoes the broader themes of the Arriving anthology, Where AAPI community members share their journeys through criminalization, deportation, and reentry. These narratives expose the deep entanglement of the prison and immigration systems while humanizing and making visible the resilience of those impacted. The link to RSVP for the event will be included in the show notes, where you can also choose to donate 25 and receive a copy of the anthology. this event marks the closing ceremony of the yearlong exhibition walking stories, but also a commitment to the ongoing work to center the voices and stories of system impacted individuals through the oral testimonies of those still incarcerated and the panel discussion with community leaders of APSC4, a space where storytelling is not just a practice of remembrance, but a demand for justice and an ongoing continuing call to action is created. So join us at arriving with our stories on February 28th, 2025, from 6 to 8 PM at Edge on the Square, 800 Grant Avenue, San Francisco, California. Find the full details in our show notes and at edge on the square. org. Now let's listen to Maria Legarda share her journey content warnings for mentions of sexual violence, substance abuse, death, incarceration, and trauma.   Maria Legarda: [00:05:10] So I grew up in the Philippines, with my grandparents. My first years had the fondest memories there. Couple of years later, we moved to our new home. Had my baby brother and we moved and a couple years later, my sister was born. She had a medical condition when she was born and I saw the change in our household. You know, as she got older, her condition worsened and it took a toll on our family slowly. I withdrew from my folks, detached and I, I built a resentment towards my parents. I was young, this is what we used to have. And this is what's happening now, what's going on. You know, there was no emotional support when we were growing up, me and my brother. The focus was, Trying to get my sister better, you know, but I was young, I was young, and my brother was young for us to understand, you know, what was going on in our household, and, that started the separation between me, my parents, It was tough growing up, I'm the eldest and so I had to be responsible, you know, for my younger siblings and I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. so. When I got older, you know, my dad urged me to go to the U. S., you know, years where our family was in debt. And when I came to the U. S., I saw the opportunity to help my parents actually get out of debt, and help them. I didn't know the cost, the burden that it's going to cost me. being in a different country, and supporting my family alone. And I did everything that I could to help my parents and my siblings, not be in poverty. Not live day to day and have a future for them. but at the same time, being a young adult in America, when I immigrated here, it was after 9/11. So there was a lot of, society was different at that time and finding my place during that time was hard, you know, and I was alone, I was working hard. I was stressed, you know, I didn't have much help. ,and that started the drug use. it was hard for me to assimilate into a culture that it just looks, it's great. You know, being free and being able to experience a lot of different things, but deep down, I don't know how to, Find my place here. You know, I didn't have friends and I have my cousin, And I was dealing with a lot of the tension at home, too You know my mom dealing with my sister's death She passed away Dealing with the money issues dealing with her marriage I was her emotional support, and as a young adult, I don't know how to provide that for my family. And so the drug use became my coping here in a new country with new friends, and I just got tired of being hurt and being pain and, you know, the trauma of losing my sister. How do I deal with that? Losing my family because we were lost, you know, with her. And how do you cope from that?    Drugs became my coping. I was numb. I was happy, you know, because I didn't hurt anymore. and, you know, being alone here in the U. S., I turned to online chatting. That's where friendships, I found friendships in there. I was very young and naive and, You know, I met a man online who said all the right things, words, that I felt loved and cared for, for somebody like me that was so desperate for emotional connection and just to feel loved that was huge for me to find that one person to give me that attention. And so for six months, you know, I felt I was at the happiest in my life because I had somebody to turn to, I had somebody to talk to. And, I felt that I, you know, I have somebody with me that understands what I'm going through, um, when my own family is not there for me because they're too busy trying to take care of their own needs. And, um, you know, we started talking and, after six months, he promised to, um, take me out on a date. and when we met, um, it was fun, you know, for the first time seeing somebody behind, you know, the, the conversations and seeing him in person, it was nice. It's real. Right. And, you know, everything happened so fast at that time that, I was excited, but then there's that fear and, you know, we were on our way to where we were going at, you For our first date and he veered off to a hotel and, you know, in my inexperience you know, I was hoping that, okay, why are we veering off to this? This wasn't part of what we talked about, but things were happening so fast and I was engaged in the conversations and what we're going to do, or we're just going to go and see. And, you know, I was very vulnerable and I went with it. And before I knew it. I was at the hotel, you know, with him and, I was hoping and praying that nothing bad would happen, but unfortunately, you know, I was alone and knowing that it was just me and him soon enough, the inevitable would happen. And our first meeting, our first date, I was raped, you know, and, all the signs were there, you know, that desperate for that human connection and that, you know, I trusted him. I trusted him that, you know, he was a good person, but it happened, after that I went home and I told myself that it didn't happen. Pretended that it didn't happen. my mind and my body just disassociated, you know, from what just happened and, you know, went to bed the next day, went to work, like it never happened, like nothing happened. That intensified my drug use. It was my way of coping. Every time I hurt, every time I'm in pain, I feel pain, I feel hurt. I turned to drugs because it made me numb and it made me function. You know, I am able to function and continue on with the next day. Why? Because I have a family who's waiting for me, that depends on me, and I need to take care of them. and that's how it was for me.    For the next months, few months later, I found out that I was pregnant from the rape. And when I found out I was pregnant, I stopped using. You know, I was torn and at the same time I was still hoping there was still that small hope that what I had with him was real and I was suffering. Now I know that back then I was suffering from post traumatic, battered women's syndrome. I never got help from what happened that day. and so with the baby I have this, thought that maybe if he knew that I was pregnant, that he would come back to me. That's how my mindset was. I wanted my rapist to come back into my life. That's how desperate I was, you know, was alone. And I wasn't in the right state of mind, you know, with deep in my addiction, not being able to think rationally. By the time I, I asked, you know, for help, I asked my parents if they could, um, come and visit me here in the United States. I didn't know how to tell my mom about my addiction, about the rape, that I just needed them and they couldn't be there for me. And with everything else that's going on in my life, I hit, finally hit my rock bottom and I relapse, I relapse and I used, and me using far along in my pregnancy. That night induced my pregnancy, um, induced labor. And so the following morning, I went into premature labor. Again, I was alone in my room when they induced labor. I was in my bathroom and I gave birth to my son. I got him, picked him up, wrapped him in a towel, and when he wasn't breathing, I panicked. Wrapped him in a towel and put him in the room. And after that I went to go take care and get ready for work. What am I supposed to do with my baby not breathing? got ready for work, called the cab so I can go to work. I didn't make it to work because um, the cab driver took me to the hospital because I was so pale and I lost so much blood. And, um, so I stayed in the hospital and later on, um, medical staff was there. and, you know, the cops were there and I was arrested, I was sentenced to 25 years to life, for the death of my son.    I was 24 when I sat in the holding cell of California's biggest women's prison sitting there thinking, this is what. Life is going to be like for me. What is life going to be like for me? How did I get here, you know, and I was, I was in so much denial. You know, I was in so much denial I don't even know where to start. Because at that time, sitting there at that holding cell, I was still in a victim mode. You know, I knew I was responsible for the death of my son, but the extent of it, I couldn't even grasp the severity of how much harm I've caused. And for 14 years, I immersed myself in self help groups to make sure that I understood what happened that night, what happened at that time, you know, 25 years, there's no amount of punishment that I think would, would equate because I give that punishment to myself every single day. There's not a day that goes by that I don't think like, okay, today he would have been 19 years old. I wondered if he was playing basketball, would I take him to football games? Would I take him to baseball games? Like, what would it be like for him? You know, when my parents came to visit, Those were questions like my dad would want it to know, my mom would want it to know, and it's the big elephant in the room, we don't talk about it. But today, um, I hold, I am, you know, I hold responsibility, accountability for all my actions that led to that dreadful night. You know, when, when I went to board and I was found suitable, you know, one of the, one of the programs that, really helped me was, um, We're just to life, you know, forgiveness I have to find forgiveness in myself for what I've done for my past decisions in order for me to move on and make a difference in, you know, for people. If I wanted to help people, how am I supposed to help people if I can't even start healing within me? you know, took all the self help groups so I could have that understanding of where do I need to start in order for me to have a future and so that people around me, I wouldn't hurt anymore the people, those people that are around me. My family, my friends, even people that I don't know that when they see me, they wouldn't get scared of the person that they knew came from prison. You know, that was sentenced to 25 to life for killing her own son. I don't want to be that person. So. I took advantage of all the groups that, you know, were, were offered to us and I earned that second chance. when I went to board and to really deep, look deep in, deep down and where was that anger coming from? You know, why was it so hard for me to ask for help? And the biggest part that I learned was stepping out of denial, acknowledging that the rape happened, that it wasn't my fault, that I could overcome that and, I could take control back, you know, take that back and turn my life around and use that. You know, motivate myself to, find healing and forgiveness.    Today I'm a re-entry consultant for APSC. I help folks that are coming home from jails, from prisons, from detention centers. I help them navigate, you know, in their re entry. You know, coming home from detention, so after I, you after I paroled from CCWF, I knew that I would be, I had an ice hold and I would be detained and ICE came and picked me up in CCWF in 2019. You know, the first day of being free, I was welcomed with shackles, with handcuffs and a waist chain around my waist chain. And, I was walking, you know, into a white van and I drove off to the Holding cell, the ice holding cell, and I was on the road for 72 hours back and forth because they, they have nowhere to, put me, all the ice facility detention centers were, I guess, they were packed and they have no room for me. So they finally made room for me and I was in the Delanto where I stayed for 11 months. And. You know, when I was there, I'm just like Bun said, once they get you there, they ask you sign the paperwork, you deport, or you want to fight your case. And I've met Anoop, Anoop prepared me, you know, for when that day comes, like I just needed to let them know that, no, you're fighting because you have people, the community, the family here fighting alongside you. And that's what I told them. I said, no, I'm not. signing, I will go through the process and it was very, it was a very different experience, you know, with being sentenced to 25 years to life than being told, you have to sign this paper because I'm deporting you back to your country because you're not a citizen. You know, they don't see the changed person. They only see the person that was not born here in the United States. They don't see the person that has a family in the community waiting outside that building. They only see a convicted felon that has an aggravated felony that's not a U.S. citizen that needs to get deported back to the country where they were born. So knowing that every day, and I've always said it, you know, every moment in detention center is like a cliffhanger moment. You'll never know when your day is going to be when you don't come back to the dorm and you get shipped off and get sent to a plane. And then next thing you know, the next phone call your family gets is that you're in a country where you don't know where you're going. So that's what it was like in the detention center.    You know, it was the onset of COVID when I was able to file, a writ because of my medical condition. And by the grace of God, you know, with the community behind me, Anoop too, was very instrumental. I was released Friday when everybody was telling me that you're not going to get released. You know, the cutoff date, the cutoff time is six o'clock and you're not going to get released and you're not going to get a bond hearing. You're not going to you're not going to get released from here. There's just no hope for you. You know, that's what they tell us in, in detention, you know, there's the chances of us being released from detention. Once ICE has a hold of you is very, very slim. So for us, that's. small hope is really just a teeny tiny window for us. But it takes a community, you know, to work together to get us all out. And I have that support with Anoop, with APSC. So at six o'clock on a Friday, when they said that the judge is not going to rule today, you're going to have to wait. And the last, The last process already for people that were getting released were already done. There's, you're, that's it. You're not gonna get it. But 6:30 came. It was after count time. All the tablets in the detention center was ringing and it was a phone call for me and all I saw was my grandma on the other line saying that, she was crying, crying, hysterically crying. And so my heart dropped because I thought, okay, this is it. I'm getting deported, what I didn't know, was Anoop and my grandma were constantly in communication trying to get me out and the judge made a decision a little after six that before five o'clock Saturday morning, they are to release me. And, it took the community, you know, to get, to make that happen. And on April of 2019, I was released from Adelanto and I was released to Los Angeles. I couldn't, parole to San Francisco, to the Bay area because, um, of COVID shelter in place.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:23:30] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org. We'll be right back to Maria's story after we listen to “7,000 Miles” by Ruby Ibarra featuring Ann One.   MUSIC   That was “7,000 Miles” by Ruby Ibarra, featuring Anne One. You are listening to Apex Express. Now let's get back to Maria Legarda ‘s story.   Phillip Winnick: [00:28:19] Um, Maria, how long did you know Anoop throughout this process when you were in the detention center? Um, and how did you manage to get to San Francisco?    Maria Legarda: [00:28:31] So I've known Anoop since 2015, end of 2015, beginning of 2016, right before board. I needed to seek his advice about, you know, my ICE detainer and how long. Like what the process is going to be, if I choose to fight it, if I don't fight it. And around that time, you know, we just had a new president in the Philippines and what would it look like for me if I don't win my case? Like, what are the chances, you know? So that's how we started corresponding, 2015, I prepped for board and then, um, when I got out in 2019, Prior to that, 2018, we started, corresponding frequently, more frequently because, My board date, um, is coming up, and, you know, when they ask me about questions about immigration, like, what do I say, Anoop, like, because the board wants to know everything, just like Bun mentioned before. They want to see the big picture. If we grant you parole, what are you going to do? So when it comes to immigration, like, what are your plans? So I have to have a realistic, it needs to be realistic for me. You know, there's no ifs and buts. I have to like, Anoop, what do I do? And if it's not possible, then I have to have a plan B, you know? So that's how we started corresponding and Anoop guided me in a lot of my preparation. and before I went to Adelanto, he prepped me step by steps on what it It's gonna look like for me once ICE picks me up and everything was on point, you know, they came and got me an R& R, I left around nine o'clock, the white van came and picked me up, I went to Fresno holding cell from there, they're gonna, assign me a, facility, you know, so that's how it started. And then when I ended up in Adelanto after 72 hours, they finally were able to locate me just like, when, you know, Anoop has a way of, you know, it's like a, you know, We have a GPS within us and Anoop just knows where to find us. So finally, you know, my grandma was telling me that Anoop told her that I was in Adelanto and, you know, later on I'm going to be in the system. And so, when I got there, everything that Anoop told me to, like, when you get there and they ask you for your signature, you tell them that, you're fighting your case, this is what's happening. You give them my number and, you know, so that's the step by step process.    And, that's, that's how Anoop got me, situated when I got to Adelanto and in preparing for my, my hearing, he walked me through it too. from the Bay Area, I was all the way to like, what, San Bernardino County in Adelanto and he was guiding me every step of the way. He had some, The Advancing Justice LA kind of like helped me, you know, with representing. Um, so I have extra help, and then preparing for CAT hearing, preparing for, just, you know, the whole time that I was in Adelanto, I was in constant communication with Anoop. Sometimes it's not even about legal support, just emotional support. Like, okay. Anoop you have to, you have to just tell me. Tell me what I'm looking at. Tell me what I need to do. What are my next steps? What are my chances? And that really helped a lot, you know, stepping out of denial. That was my life story or, you know, I'm always in denial. And so this time, like, no, Anoop I need to know, like, what am I looking at? and so when. when it wasn't going, it didn't look well, you know, for me, as far as my hearing, it gave me all my probabilities, And I know what I need to do. So that's how we, I've always, um, until today, I still seek Anoop's advice about everything. you know, not being able to get my ID, like Anoop would be my next step, not being able to get, I said, some paperwork, some documents. So every step of the way in this whole journey, he's always been our, You know, emotional support, legal support, in everything.   Anoop Prasad: [00:32:40] I think what's really amazing and special at APSC is I met most of the staff at APSC when they were incarcerated. And most of the APSC staff first met each other in prison, often when they were just kids. And I think that makes APSC just like such a special place. Um, and I met Maria through Nia Norn, who's our co director and met Maria at CCW Afton prison. Um, and I'd been writing Nia about her ICE hold and her deportation when she was serving a life sentence. and then she over mail introduced me to Maria and I started writing with Maria. and there's this ripple effect of hope and freedom from every person who gets out and Maria has helped so many other people and she got out, get out of prison and out of ICE and same with Bun.That's helped so many other folks in San Quentin and throughout the entire prison system get out. And so it's really amazing seeing folks come home and then come back to get other folks out.    Phillip Winnick: [00:33:33] Yeah, it's incredible. Um, Maria, why don't you tell us about some of the experiences you had, um, helping people out with the APSC?   Maria Legarda: [00:33:41] Oh, where do I start?    Phillip Winnick: [00:33:43] Most memorable, I guess.    Maria Legarda: [00:33:44] Yeah, the most memorable. you know, I've been sober for 20 plus years now and, one of my clients, um, when I introduced myself to her, I always introduced myself as a formerly incarcerated individual because I don't want them to feel that I'm, you know, most of my clients have had traumas and have been judged for a very long time. And I don't want them to think that I'm law enforcement or anything like that. And so I always tell them, oh, hi, my name is Maria and I'm formerly incarcerated. I served 14, 15 years and they're like, what? And so that opens up, you know the, the door and it becomes an easy conversation to have. And so when one of my clients, she told me that Maria, I'm 20 months sober. I was like, Oh, I'm so happy for you. And she's like, really? It's like, yes. Don't you know that it's an accomplishment? It's like, why? It's like, Oh my God, you just give me one day. I'd be the happiest person. And she said, why? Because I'm 20 years sober, 20 plus years sober. You're 20 months. You're going to get to where I'm at. And so that started that conversation and that just bond between us. She's, you know, she, she's worked hard and she needed some help in different aspects of, you know, her trying to get her life together. Like Maria, I need to get my kids. Um, I'm in the process. What do I do? It's like, okay, don't worry. We're going to find you some resources. We're going to find you some, help with the law clinics and see who can take your case. And we'll start from that. It's like, okay. she needs housing. We signed her up for a housing and, it didn't work out for her because she already participated in a similar program. So what we did was, okay, maybe we should start, you know, asking your CPS and this is what we're going to do. So having case plan goals in order for her to see what would best suit her, what she wants to do in life and what she wants for her kids. we worked on that, you know. and her desire to be a substance abuse counselor.​​ The team, actually, I had talked to [unintelligible]. We need to help her get enrolled and she doesn't have, financially, she's struggling. She has three kids on coming back to her. You know, she's getting her custody, her three kids custody back. So, you know, her hands are gonna be full. we need to help her. What do we do? He's like Maria, enroll her. Like, I can? Like, yes, enroll her. I was like, really? I can enroll her? And to me, when my boss said I can enroll her, I was like, oh my god, that's like, you know, you're giving something. Like, that's a gift. It, it doesn't cost a lot, but that's her future. That's the kid's future. And her having, you know, a career after that. She's been on drugs for as long as she remembers, right? So that's the greatest achievement for her at that time to be a substance abuse counselor. And just like, Maria, can you please help me find a class and to be able to do that? That's why I'm doing the work that I do because if I can make a difference, even just by enrolling them, you know, what other programs do that? I don't know if they do that, out of their organization's pocket to sponsor somebody, you know, for higher education. So that was one of my memorable moments helping one of my clients get her classes to become a substance abuse counselor. Thank you.    You know, and then the other one, we had one of our clients struggling with substance abuse and, his wife called me and she's not actually our client, but you know, we're all about family reunification. So if the wife, if the kids are having trouble and they have my phone number, they can reach out to us and we'll help them. Right. And she reached out and she felt really this burden of guilt because. Like Maria, I don't want to turn him in, but like he was drunk and being a, being a domestic violence survivor, right? I told her like, look, the first, that's the best, like, he's not going to be mad at you because you put your daughter's care and your care in your life first before anything and because I know he's a good father to her and a good man to you, besides that, you know, addiction, it creeps up on you and it crept up on him. And I said, you did the right thing. You did the right thing for him, because when the time comes, you were his accountable, accountability partner. So, you guys are both responsible for your daughter, and you did the right thing. And just walking her through that, because the guilt that was eating her up, because the whole family's mad at her because she put him there, she shouldn't have to go through that alone. You know, so, just taking the time, throughout the week and checking up on her. Do you need food? I can, we have pantry available for you. like, do you need diapers formula for the kid, for your daughter? Like, we have somewhere, a place that you can go to, to get some help in these trying times. And she's like, okay, Maria, I'm going. So other than the emotional support and you know, the, other things that she needs, just getting her through that toughest time, there's just no, there's no, amount of like, there's no satisfaction other than seeing a mother and the daughter being together and then now reunited with, you know, them reunited as a family.    Phillip Winnick: [00:39:19] The feeling of you helping people who feel alone in a situation that you are similar to, and that you felt alone in, what is that feeling of being able to give these, these people somebody to talk to who have been through what, what they've been through?   Maria Legarda: [00:39:38] You know, it feels good is not even like amount to it because, um, I always wondered what if somebody, you know, what if somebody took their time, you to ask me, like, Maria, is everything okay? I felt like that could have. You know, that could have made a difference. Maybe not, but I wouldn't know, right. Because of what I went through, but I don't want that to be me. So when people come my way, I, I encounter people and, you know, I get a sense of like, what's going on, you know, like what's going on in your life. Like, you know, to have a conversation and just get to know them just a little bit, Then that's when I know, you know, like, okay, this is what they're going through. So let me just walk them through it. Why? Because some people don't even know that they need that at that moment, at that time. You know, I, I didn't know that maybe, you know, if one of the lifer OGs, you know, and in the beginning of my time, if she didn't make an effort and say like, baby, you know, you can be more than just this around you. There's hope out there for you. And that, gave me that small window of hope that maybe there is a chance for me to get out of this place and see myself outside these walls, right? So when I encounter people and I know that they've been in situations, I don't know exactly what it is, I'll just give some time and just get to know, talk to them just a little bit. Just a little bit to see, like, what is it that you need? Maybe that's, you know, a few seconds would make a difference, right? So if that's what it needs, if that's what somebody needs, a few seconds of my time to deter them from making that one major, decision in their life that's gonna alter the course, right, of their life and go down that path that I went down on, like, that I've gone through, if I can prevent them from that. Then I did my job for that day, not my job, but I did what I'm supposed to do, you know, I felt like I went through all these obstacles in life because I have a purpose now, you know, and it's not about saving everybody, but just being there for that person at that moment when it counts.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:42:01] We'll be right back after the next song, “GRLGNG” by Rocky Rivera.   MUSIC   You are listening to Apex Express. That was “GRLGNG” by Rocky Rivera. Thanks again to the HHREC podcast for allowing us to re-air a portion of their show. Let's get back to it.   Phillip Winnick: [00:46:22] That's incredible. And I'm so happy for you that you found that for yourself. Why don't you, you were, you were talking about the support groups a little bit earlier. Why don't you, uh, tell me more about that?    Maria Legarda: [00:46:33] Oh, so APSC, created, me and my director created, community and, re entry empowerment, which stands for CARE. It's APSC's first women's support group for formerly incarcerated women and transgender folks here in the Bay Area. And. You know, after years of incarceration, you know, navigating in, society, right, coming back home, transitioning into society, there's a lot of overwhelming experiences and obstacles that we all go through. And so I know a lot of people. Women need that support, but where do we get that support? So we've been in a lot of re entry groups, support groups, and men have it, like they have it it's, you know, it's available for them, but what about the women? And so when we started it, um, we started with 24 people, asking is this something that you're interested in? And majority of them said, yes, like, we need this because women wear many hats, you know, some are daughters, sisters, mothers, grandmothers, and there's a lot in their lives that they go through. and as formerly incarcerated, not everybody understands what it's like. So for us, you know, it's, we live right next to each other, right? If I need help and I need support, I'm going to knock on the door like, Hey, you got a few minutes. Like, cause I need to talk right now. Like, okay, come on. We'll walk down the yard, walk down and hash it out, talk and, you know, what's going on with you. It's like, I'm going through it. We can just talk. But now being out here, some live in the Bay area, some live in Antioch, some live in Pittsburgh, some live in Dinuba, some live up the mountains, like how do you find that support? Right? Some are tech challenged. They don't know how to zoom. They don't know how to FaceTime. So how do you do that? So we. made it possible for them, you know, to find, to have that space where we can meet every month and check in and see what's happening with it, with each other. You know, what's going on? What kind of support do you need? What resources do you need? Who do you need to get connected with? And, you know, being in that support group for six months, it's like I never left my sisters inside. You know, the bond that we formed, and I know Bun can, you know, relate to this, the bond that we formed, you know, in those walls, it just continued in that Zoom space, you know, and it, recharged, that motivation, that encouragement that we've always looked out for each other when we were inside. So now that we're out here, like, no, it doesn't mean that just because we're all out that we have to stop. So that space being created for us, we were able to reconnect and help each other out and playing phone tag and have text thread messages and emails. And so it just needed to get started. Like, no, this is what we're going to do. This is how we can be there for each other. And so the program was a success. You know, we graduated in December. We started with 24, but due to work conflicts, we graduated with 19 women, who participated and completed the program. We had three in person events. Their whole family came with us with a graduation. And the one thing we wanted for our graduates, our participants, is that to spend a weekend with their family without having to worry about, Oh my God, we're going to have to travel. It's going to cost us money. No. We wanted them to spend time with each other as a unit, as a family, because of all those years that they were separated. Right. And not only that, be in the same space with the sisters that they've left, that they've been celebrating Christmases for two decades that's how much time these women have spent with each other. And now that they're out, they just needed to find a place to, you know, have a reunion. But at the same time, continue what we have when we were inside. Cause it doesn't mean it has to stop. So now with the success of the program, We're getting emails and we're getting, you know, when can we start the next group? When can I participate? When can I come over? Am I going to be able to come to the Bay Area reunion? So there's that hope, you know, that they're not alone because, like we know now it's, you know, these are challenging and difficult times and we're here, you know, we we just. Don't leave any of our sisters behind we just come on we got you just like we've always had each other's backs.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:51:18] You can learn more about Maria's story in the zine we was girls together by Trần Châu Hà. It portrays the story that you just heard along with more details. Maria's story is one of many. She's a survivor of gender based violence, forced to migrate to the United States due to the economic consequences of Western imperialism in the Philippines. Migrant women like Maria experience the compounding forces of colonialism, border exclusion, and economic exploitation in the United States, making them even more vulnerable to abusive relationships. In their attempts to survive, these women are usually met with criminal punishment rather than support or care. An estimated 94 percent of those in women's facilities are abuse survivors. In the absence of state sanctioned support, these women turn to one another, building their own networks of care and advocacy for each other's freedom. These networks illuminate the nature in which feminist care work is inherently a practice of racial solidarity between Black, Brown, Indigenous, and API women. The zine we was girls together, seeks to honor Maria's story alongside that of her community of incarcerated women, documenting their solidarity campaigns, mutual aid projects, and life affirming relationships to one another. Thank you so much for joining us. We hope you will have the opportunity to join the live event on February 28th and to take action in support of the APSC4. You can also find out more about Maria and the APSC4 in the Asian American Histories of Resistance Timeline that is both online and in augmented reality form in the gallery. This timeline spans from 1873 to present day. We have interviewed scholar Helen Zia on Apex Express multiple times. She talks about moments that are MIH, or missing in history. In the timeline, Acre, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, presents moments of our Asian American story that are MIH. One of those stories is about Maria. Apex Express is a proud member of ACRE, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. We are committed to fighting for a more just and equitable world. As Grace Lee Boggs said, We are the leaders we've been waiting for.   Miko Lee: [00:53:26] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.    The post APEX Express – 2.13.25 – Arriving APSC4 Maria's Story appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight join Host Miko Lee as we focus on the APSC4. We will be doing a short series on the members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee's campaign for justice. In this first episode we speak with all four leaders, advocates from APSC4 including: Peejay Ai, Maria Lagarda, Kee Lam, and Chanthon Bun. They are staff at Asian Prisoner Support Committee who work with formerly incarcerated folks and their families. They provide support like jobs, healthcare, education, community. And yet, despite their work and their personal transformations and community transformations, they remain in immigration limbo and are at risk of being detained by ICE and potentially deported. Tonight, we hear their personal stories. We learn about movement building and talk about how you can get involved. And just a note for listeners that we will be talking about experiences with war. trauma, sexual assault, and violence.   How to support the APSC4 APSC 4: https://action.18mr.org/pardonapsc3/ APSC Website: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/ APSC Donation Page: https://donate.givedirect.org/?cid=13… APSC Get Involved Page: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/apsc-4 Twitter:   / asianprisonersc   Facebook:   / asianprisonersupportcommittee   Instagram:   / asianprisonersc     Arriving: APSC4 Part 1 Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Welcome to our multiple part series about the members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, APSC4, and their campaign for justice. First up is an interview with all four. In the next episodes, we'll be diving into their individual stories. Special thanks to the HHREC podcast for allowing us to re-air their shows, which will be linked in our show notes.   Miko Lee: [00:00:56] Tonight on Apex Express, we have members of the APSC4, Asian Prisoner Support Committee's formerly incarcerated leaders, advocates, and healers. We are talking with Peejay Ai, Maria Lagarda, Kee Lam, and Chanthon Bun. They are staff at Asian Prisoner Support Committee who work with formerly incarcerated folks and their families. They provide support like jobs, healthcare, education, community. And yet, despite their work and their personal transformations and community transformations, they remain in immigration limbo and are at risk of being detained by ICE and potentially deported. Tonight, we hear their personal stories. We learn about movement building and talk about how you can get involved. And just a note for listeners that we will be talking about experiences with war. trauma, sexual assault, and violence. Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Welcome APSC4 to Apex Express. I am so happy to have you here. I want to start with a question that I love to ask of everyone, which is from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. And the question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Let's start with Peejay.   Peejay Ai: [00:02:12] So I am Peejay. I am Cambodian of origin. My mom and dad are Cambodian. We have part Chinese somewhere in our genes. When I think about legacy, I think about my culture, my upbringings, you know, my, my parents cares with them. I Also have experiences in incarceration, and obviously through my journey in life, I have this legacy as well, where I've learned some stuff and I have met people through the prison system. When I think about my people, I think about the people I've come across with who helped me grow in life, you know, and the foundation that my parents taught me when I was a kid. That's kind of my legacy. I think about the people I've come in contact with, my community, my parents, what they teach me about my ancestor. And now that I'm working heavily with the CERI community, Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants here in Oakland, you know, I'm co facilitate the Men's Elders group. So, with them, they teach me a lot about culture, a lot about my roots and where I came from. And so I'm relearning who I am as a person and redefining myself. And also reminded that, you know, beyond my experience, there's a foundation of Cambodian cultural, right. and heritage, you know, behind me. So that's kind of what I think about when I think about my people and I think about my legacy.   Miko Lee: [00:03:29] Thank you so much, Peejay. Bun, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Chanthon Bun: [00:03:36] I'm Cambodian. My people are Khmer people. The legacy that I have is resilient. My family have lived through, through a lot of systems even my grandparents being Khmer from colonization to the genocide to, coming to America. My family have endured a lot. so the resilient in us still live and that's the legacy I carry.    Miko Lee: [00:03:58] Thank you so much. Bun, I'm going to ask you about resilience later, because that is a key thing I get from y'all. Maria, what about you? Tell me about your people and what legacy you carry with you.   Maria Legarde: [00:04:09] Who are my people? I'm a Filipina immigrant, so my people are the survivors. You know, those that dealt with a lot of that, that had a lot of challenges growing up, right? And didn't have a voice. So those are my people. My faith community are my people, my elders, my Lolas, and my mylas, my mentors, those that shaped me and who I'm becoming today. Those are my people. The legacy that I feel that what I'm leaving an imprint here on earth is being the voice for those that cannot express themselves. For those that do not have a voice right now and are scared. And I want to be that voice to let them know that they're not alone.   Miko Lee: [00:04:54] Ke Lam, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Ke Lam: [00:04:58] My people are my incarcerated. Those are incarcerated. Those that got deported, and those that are living in fear are my people. Because I understand the struggle, I understand the fear, I understand the trauma. The legacy I carry with me is all the advocates before me that have done this work that, you know, that put their life on the line. As well as my grandfather who came to this country, you know, struggling to raise a whole family, whole generation. I think the other part of my legacy is. breaking the, the, the cultural cycle. Like my grandfather never hugged my dad, but I hugged my dad, gave my dad that hug. And so, and, and that progression is going towards my, my siblings, as well as even to other men that was incarcerated. That never got a hug from their father.    Miko Lee: [00:05:50] Thank you all for sharing your stories of who you are and your sense of resilience and giving voice and incorporating your culture. I know that each of you have had incredibly deep and profound experiences and thank you so much to the HHREC podcast, which is allowing us to air interviews that you did already sharing your stories. I have heard your stories also and I'm just wondering what is that like for you to continue to tell your stories again and again? How do you sustain reliving that type of trauma by sharing your stories?   Chanthon Bun: [00:06:25] You know telling our stories is really traumatic. But we've learned how to heal from a lot of our traumas without healing from your trauma, it's hard to tell that story. And when you tell that story, it comes alive again. With that, I believe it's so important for our elders and our youth, especially like Peejay, myself and Maria. We are the 1.5 generation. I truly believe that we bridge these generation, you know, where we could relate to our younger folks. And then our elders, we still hold the tradition that they're used to. Telling our stories is bridging the experience, you know, bridging the past and the future with the present of our stories. For me, a lot of it is because when I grew up, I didn't have stories like this. I had to live it and made mistakes as I went. I didn't have somebody telling a story of how an immigrant could learn this culture. I did it all with mistakes that I've made and lessons that I've learned. And then passing it down. I mean, there's a lot of folks that are in my shoe. There's a lot of folks living the life that I live that still don't understand and still can't heal. And, you know, I'm just hoping that the shared experience could start a conversation of healing.   Peejay Ai: [00:07:44] Yeah, I think for me, sharing my story over and over again it is healing in some instances, and sometimes, you know, living, reliving trauma is very difficult. And I'm learning to like, do my work, you know, as an advocacy with APSE, and through my own experience through restorative justice practices that, sharing my story, it could be empowering for other people to share, right. I think I grew up. In this API community or silence, you know, and it's a shame to talk about, your experience, right, airing out your laundry, pretty much, you know, your personal experience could be very shameful but what that does, and I'm learning, like, you know, like, when you have trauma. and you don't talk about it, you know, you become silent. It's affects you, you know what I mean? It affects your life. It's affects your health. It affects your community and your family. So now as I'm reframing the way I look at my story is that I'm using as a tool and to share, so that other people could, could learn and know, but also feel empowered to share their story. You know, I think storytelling could be a very powerful thing for a community, right? Not just Bun have said, like provide healing, right. But. Also, I think like it provide teaching, you know, like when I hear my elder share their story, it teaches me  about my history, my culture, what they've been through, but also it also like reaffirmed that, I'm on the right track, you know, that healing could happen by watching, you know, my elder shed tears from their story by hearing their emotion and feeling their emotion and seeing it with my own eyes, you know? I think like storytelling is a very powerful tool for us and I think more people should tell their story because they have something to offer, you know, and I think we should always tell our stories. So, what's once was like a very difficult thing to do now become something that I know is very purposeful and empowering.   Miko Lee: [00:09:19] Thanks Peejay Maria. What about for you? How is it for you telling your story again and again?    Maria Legarde: [00:09:24] Sharing my story like I always get emotional. So, it's very hard for me, because I relive it, but I use it as a tool now, as it's a powerful tool, you know, going through it, sharing it, like it just happened yesterday. Because when I share my story, especially with the young women, it makes it real for them. To know that I've been there, like, I've been there too, I know it, I know what she's feeling. And, sharing it, what did I do, how did I do it. Painting the picture for them, not to traumatize them, but to show them how I got from not being able to speak about it. To talking about it to healing and then taking control over my life, and then becoming empowered by the struggles that I gone through all those years. It just didn't take me one year, took me 15, 20 years, even today, you know, so to share that I know that when I plant that seed, it's not because to traumatize them or to make them relive it. There's that collective power in it, the collective healing in it, that that's what got me to share my story in the first place. When I heard all the other women share it, I'm not alone. For the first time in my life when I heard it, I didn't feel alone. Because I knew somebody believed me. When the people that were supposed to believe me didn't believe me, they believed me. You know, so I, that's the gift that telling that story gives another, individual. That life, it's, pass it forward, you know, that's why I was so happy with the Me Too movement because it's a collective power within us. So like with Bun and with Peejay, the intergenerational healing from our, you know, the trauma within our family. Because of that, I know I can share it with my family and we start talking about it because they've seen me do it. Like how is that that young girl was able to talk to you like that? I was like, because she knew that I believed her. The moment she told me, she knew I believed her. it opens the door for healing in my family, in my community. So that's why I, today, I use that as a tool to bring people together, collective healing.    Miko Lee: [00:11:42] Storytelling as collective healing and being able to, be heard and open the door for other people to share their stories as well. Thank you so much for sharing about that. Kee Lam, I'm wondering if you could talk about the resilience it takes to tell your story again and again, what is that like for you   Ke Lam: [00:12:02] Each time I tell my story is almost like an awakening. It, is reliving a lot of that trauma, but it's also like reminding me of what I've been through and, and I'm still here. it's also for me is, Self love, being able to share it because I'm hoping that I can be an encourager to those who don't know how to share a story or who are afraid to share a story. And so when I, the reason I put myself out there all the time is like, who better to, Encourage somebody and somebody that's been through it all as well. when I help, you know, restore your justice circles, people told me the way through is through the fire. and it's not easy to share a story sometimes because it's so traumatic. But one thing that encouraged me all the time is when I see other people. And I see them when they share the story that there's like a burden that was taken off shoulders. I see the difference when somebody able to feel like they could release some of that harm that was put on them and find healing and then find, strength in a community that support them through their struggle. And so that's why I keep sharing my story because I believe that. it takes all of us to bring voice to the hurt and pain that we, we had throughout so much generations.    Miko Lee: [00:13:14] Thank you for sharing angela Davis talks about how prisons are meant to break human beings. I'm wondering how each of you. what tool you drawed on to stay strong while you are incarcerated and how different that is, like, what mental health support do you do now? Do you have a daily practice to stay resilient now? And did you have something different when you were locked up?   Chanthon Bun: [00:13:38] Yeah, that is so true. Prison is meant to break you. And there's many times while I was incarcerated for my 23 years that, I was fighting that, that don't break me. You know, I still had the fight in me. You're not going to break me. even during my long years in solitary, I just, there was something in me, like I say, there's some resilience in me that, innately told me, like, do not let them break you, you know, mentally, physically. but yeah, during my, the hardest time where I felt like, you know what, this, this is getting too hard for me, being isolated, not having human contact. And, you know, the only thing on my skin is concrete and, and metal. I often look back to. My grandparents, I often look back to their teachings, their lessons that they've shown me through the years when I was young. and sometime, I use my trauma, you know, I, grew up in the refugee camp. It was hard. I was starving there. and it's weird how like you use a bigger trauma. To cope with this trauma, you know, it's like, man, I, when I, when I was a kid, I had nothing to eat. So I lick salt, you know, . They gave me three meals a day. I think I'm doing better than I used to be. So it's like, it's it was kind of crazy way to, think about it. And, and I think because I had so much trauma as a child. It really helped me to be resilient when I was incarcerated. And like, it really helped me to empower myself. And then, and then it really helped me to think about what is resilient? at first I didn't even know what it meant. People tell me, I was like, yeah, whatever. It was just, Something I do, like when folks like, damn, you're so resilient, like, I've been like this all my life. I don't know. I don't know what the gauge of resilience you're giving me. I've always been a person like, I'll figure this out, you know, as long as I survive, I'll figure it out. So, if you let them, it will break you. You look deep inside you, and you look at your life, and just like me, a crazy way was, I've been through worse and I could do this too.    Miko Lee: [00:15:32] Before you get to you stay resilient now, Maria, I see you smiling a lot. I wonder if you want to respond to that. About prison breaking, meant to break human beings.   Maria Legarde: [00:15:43] I, I, because I agree with what Bun was saying, you know, it's like trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma. Which one's worse? There's really, like, is, this trauma is really worse than this trauma? Because I both came out of it, you know, so give me more. Is there anything more that you can give me, right? So it becomes a defensive mechanism for us. And Bun said, I didn't know what resilient means. too, when I was in prison, what does resilient mean? I said, I know English is my second language, but, , you know, I don't know what that meant for a human being to be resilient and what it embodies. So that's why I agreed. And I smile because, yep, we didn't know we were resilient because we've been fighting to survive. We've been fighting to just to live another day.   Miko Lee: [00:16:28] Peejay, what about you? How did you stay strong when you were locked up?    Peejay Ai: [00:16:32] There's many factors, right. But I think like one factor I share with Bun, like I grew up on the street. It was hard, you know, I grew up poor. I grew up on welfare. I grew up, you know, as a refugees, you know, coming to America, doesn't speak the language, was bullied, you know, was victim of school shooting to the point. Right. And like, there's. Certain things in my life that really, like, shaped me and, like, pushed me really hard. And so I knew I was different. I knew I was, like, you know, like, the deck is stacked against me. And so I think, like, experiencing it as a young person, I become numb to it. And so when I hit prison, and I went, you know, I went to Juvenile Hall, right? I went to Juvenile Hall. I went to the CYA. I went to prison. So as young person going through the prison system, I started to the lower level first and I can build resilience, you know, like teaching myself how to read, like learning, to accept hardship, right. Not being able to be isolated, not to be like in a cell locked up for many, you know, for many days, sometime many years or two, right. I think the one thing that really shaped my life the most is when I was in Solano State Prison. And I was just like, this was like new. I turned 18, they sent me from CYA. To Solano, and one night my mom came to visit me and, she was just so dumbfounded by like, what she hear about prison. And then she asked me, how am I doing with everything? And then I explained to her, like what the environment is like, and I didn't candy coat it for her, but I just explained it to her and she couldn't understand why people would continue to harm each other in prison. We're all in the same boat, you know, like we're all in the same boat, we're locked up away from our family, like, why are we not together helping each other out? Right? And then there's one thing she said was I stuck with me today. She said life is hard, you know what I mean? Like, and it could be harder, you know what you make of it, right? Like, you've got the choice to make it easier if you want to, like, Your circumstance were always going to be the same, right? But you have a choice to make it worse. And I'm sitting there like, man, that's just makes so much sense to me. You know, like, why are we making much harder on ourself? Right. so then I started looking at life much differently. I think her statement for me was at the moment I had, it's like, you know, things are hard, right, but I can always make it harder for myself and things could always be harder too, right? So why not enjoy You know, things that is around me and try to make a difference in my own self. Right.    So from that concept, I started developing resiliency. You know, I started, I looked at it, I started reframing life differently. Right. I started thinking about like, well, I don't have nothing to eat, you know, like doing lockdowns, I think about, yeah, well, people starving all over the world too, you know, like, you know, So it just kind of gave me strength, you know, as I learned to reframe my environment over and over again. And then I started to develop, like, start to like find opportunity to create better opportunity for myself. I went and got a job, you know, I worked in a kitchen and I fed myself and I, went to school and I got a, education and I started getting in the program. And so, you know, I started really thinking about like, How do I make my life better? You know, I call it my life, despite what I, you know, very little I have, I make the best of it. Right. So I think like that kind of echo out in my whole life until I got to the ICE detention center, you know, I'm reminded like, Oh, it's pretty bad down here. at that point, I'm like, I'm used to this already, you know, I'm used to reframing things to become positive, right? No matter how negative it is, you know, I try to find the best of it. Right. Conditioning through like hardship, hard time when I was a kid, all the way to my adulthood, even now, you know, like things get hard, with this new immigration policy and stuff, there's a lot of fear. I mean, I'm constantly reminded that I'm not alone, you know, I've built community throughout my life, I'm creating opportunity, for healing. And so I should focus on what I have that is positive versus what I don't have that is negative, you know, let's cherish the moment, you know, cherish my friendship, you know, cherish my opportunity, right. And my freedom and soul. So that grounds me, that reminded me that, can get better and it will get better. I just got to keep that faith alive and just keep hope alive and just keep moving, you know. When I go through prison and I survive all the hardship, it's grounded myself on knowing that, you know, like, people in the world have it so much worse, you know, and sometimes we have a choice to make things better for ourselves, but we have to choose to make it better, right? You can't focus on the bad things. Problem solving, you know, don't focus on a problem, like, let's focus on a solution. What can you do different right now to make it better?    Miko Lee: [00:20:11] Thanks Peejay key. I'm wondering how you were able to stay strong when you were incarcerated.   Ke Lam: [00:20:17] Wow. , at first when I first started, on my. Committed offense. I went through the whole system. I went to all one time. I went to juvenile hall, youth authority, county jail, prison and immigration all on one case. It took a while. living straight strictly on survival mode. It's almost no different than when I was growing up. My family moved around constantly and it was just either you survive or you become a victim. And I started off my early life being a victim and then I learned, how to normalize violence, growing up in a predominantly African American community. And that actually, sadly prepared me for my committed offense, be doing time inside. It wasn't easy. one thing I learned was not to be, you know, to be a tough guy. just go there, mind your business, do your time, be very observant. That's one thing that did help me a lot in life is being observant of what's going on around me, being conscious of what's going on around me. And the other thing is. Try not to take too much stuff personal, but it wasn't until I started going through self help classes that I became more in tune with learning about empathy, compassion, forgiveness, not just forgiving others and receiving forgiveness from others, but also learning how to forgive myself for a lot of the stuff that I allow myself to go through and the things that I've done to others. I think the other part of me was becoming really spiritually grounded was another big part of me was, I started out practicing Buddhism. My first, you know, my first stay for, like, 10 years of incarceration. then I converted to Christianity. no denomination because I don't believe in being a religious person. I believe in being spiritual. So a lot of people are like, what's your religion? I say, I don't have one, but I do believe in a higher power. I believe that, you know, we are spiritual being experiencing a human experience. so it's a mixture of what I learned in Buddhism and Christianity is learn to have compassion for everything around me, including myself, and part of that compassion the biggest part that actually helped me to prison was. one thing that I never got from my father and he never got from his father was a hug. So I start hugging guys, giving people hugs, guys, on a yard, you know, so nationality did not matter to me. you know, I didn't grow up. biased against a lot of different people. I learned to embrace a lot of different cultures. and then one thing by going through the self help classes, learning to connect with people on a human level, besides what t they believe in or what they look like. And so once I was able to do that, I started experiencing a lot of healing for myself and for them.    Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:22:50] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.   Miko Lee: [00:23:10] I'm wondering what each of you do, what is your personal, like mental health support that you do now to be able to stay, stay resilient, stay in there. Maybe you all have touched or feel like you've answered this already, or is there anything that you're doing differently now in your daily practice?   Maria Legarde: [00:23:26] Do want to share something real quick, Miko, going back the quote, right? That prison is meant to break us. I was already broken when I went to prison. There's nothing more that they can break me. That's why I said it, like, give it to me more. What else can you give me? Because I'm already broken. You took everything from me. You know, everything was taken from me. What more can you do to break me? But then, you know, with my journey, faith as being my foundation, right, I believe that once, God gives you that second chance, right, for me. What do I want to make? With this chance, who do I want to be? So like a phoenix, you know, rise from the ashes, right? And so I utilized that and it didn't take just one year, right? Took me in that journey. That throughout that 14 years to be who I am today. So I took that broken pieces of me and put it in a puzzle and made it into this beautiful product today, right? So my mental health, my wellbeing, emotionally, mentally, I always go back to my faith. Because it's what saved me from when I got to prison. So when everything else is in chaos, I go back into that place. Go to my place within me that I can just be at peace. And meditate, listen to my music, be one in nature, so that's my go to. And it helps when I know I have people, like my beautiful family here. it helps when I know that I don't have to tell them. They can hear it from my voice and say, it's gonna be okay, Maria. So that's the kind of care. Without even having to say it, they just know. And that's more effective than anything else.    Miko Lee: [00:25:16] Thanks, Maria. Peejay, you were going to add?    Peejay Ai: [00:25:19] Yeah, so one of the things that I adopted for myself when I was in prison is that I was heavily involved with the Native American spiritual circle, you know, because of my kind of Cambodian Background before Buddhism came through, we were indigenous, right? And so through my indigenous side of sharing with the Native American cultural there, they found a lot of similarity to us people, right? And so I was fortunate to be invited to join the spiritual circle, did ceremony with them. And so a lot of the spiritual practices that I have done with them, like, for example, like this sweat lodge ceremony, which are often used for healing or prayers. stay connected with the earth, stay connected with your creators, stay connected with the higher power and also like have an opportunity to pray for your family and do some healing and cleansing for yourself. So I still practice that today and sometime when I feel out of balance, when I feel like, you know, a lot's going on and things are heavy and just stuff out of control and I need to find that balance again. You know, I go to ceremony, I go to ceremony here, here when I'm in the lodge. you know, it's pitch black, the sweat leader brings in the stone that just represent grandfather, and your elders and when he poured a water on top of the stone and it's pitch black, the steam comes out, you know, reminding me of like grandfather's breath, right. The creator's breath. And, you know, like that. And like being a sauna, people think about it being a sauna, like it washes away a lot of like toxins out of my body. It just, it washes away a lot of the hardship I've experienced as I leave it into the fire, you know, leave it into the steam and allow myself some time to like disconnect from the world around me and just reconnect with myself, you know, what am I experiencing at that moment, my breath, my pores opening, my heartbeat, you know, and, sometime, you know, people who are in the sweat lodge sing traditional songs and the sound of the drum. , And it wakes up my spirit, and it reminds me of who I am, where I came from, where I'm going. Yeah, and when I come out of the sweat lodge, I always feel like renewed, I feel energetic. I feel like I've been reborn again, right? And that helped me stay grounded on a very physical, spiritual, and emotional level. I think the other piece is that as I'm going through life, I'm celebrating it by, like, with family members, with a long walk with my family. Well, my, my dog, also help, just kind of like putting things in perspective, right. I found moments to do like me time, sometime yoga, even, you know, I, you know, the other day I did silver sneaker, because some of my elders like to do silver sneaker. . And that was like, very, powerful moment, right. And I feel like I guess it's like what I'm learning is that, Those moments help me connect with myself. And sometimes that's the thing that I need to do most when things are hard. sometimes working and responding to crisis disconnect me from myself and then when I start to refocus on myself, I realize where I need to be. then I feel empowered take the next step. That's what keeps me going. Be aware of connecting with myself more often, right? You know, I because sometimes it's easy to forget that I matters and forget myself.    Miko Lee: [00:27:59] Thank you for sharing. It's really easy to get disconnect, disconnected in our world right now. So many things are hitting at us constantly. Ke. What about you? What are ways that you stay resilient?   Ke Lam: [00:28:10] I think for one is definitely take a lot of deep breath is grounding myself is definitely one thing. It's so easy to get caught up in all the chaos around us, you know, hearing all the raids and pick up and who works, who works with ice. It is, it's really, it's depressing and it causes a lot of anxiety. One of the things I do besides breathing is I have wind therapy, wind therapy. I just learned what wind therapy is actually just riding my motorcycle, just going out there and just, you know, pick a location, just go, right? no plan. Just, just go. And most of the time I just go by myself. so I ride my ride. I zone out, play my music and I go, other things. I really, I actually been doing a lot lately is sitting with my dog and Just sitting there in peace and just quiet, just hanging out with my dog. Cause I lost my other one in October. And so the one I have now, I just meet her, just chill at the, on the sofa. I mean, on the ground, sofa on the floor, and sometimes we just go for long walks and just, don't have to talk. you know, just being present and grounded with earth and with the environment around me. and then other thing is, you Just stay connected with family and community. you know, being able to slowly share like what's going on while I'm feeling inside and outside. It's been helpful.   Miko Lee: [00:29:22] Thank you. I think we all need as many resources as we can to find ways to stay connected to ourselves and our community right now. , I'm wondering both. Peejay and Ke, , touched on the fact that you have been involved in the like bad education to incarceration as a youth into adult incarceration and now potential deportation. Can you all give a breakdown about what crimmigration is and why it is important for people to know about it?   Chanthon Bun: [00:29:50] Crimmigration is, my simplest definition of crimmigration is double punishment. crimmigration is for folks that come here legally with papers, but then because of the IIRA IRA law of 1996 that states that any crime of moral sopropo you could be deported after you serve your time so you have to serve your whole sentence pay back to society what they say you got to pay back to society serve your sentence and after that deal with deportation consequences and that's another question that we're going through today Right with this new administration is who deserve to stay in who doesn't and right now it's so Convoluted where where you know, every day we're getting new explanation who stays who goes who stays who goes and everybody talk about the law, it's the law this, it's the law that, the law says this, and they interpret the way they want to interpret it. But nobody that's in power is talking about the family, nobody's talking about the person, nobody's looking into the person like, you know, a country of second chances, nobody talks about that, like yeah, there are criminals. send them out But we have folks that have served long term, like all four of us and we healed ourselves. we went to a parole board, the state of California, the governor approved that. We are no longer a threat to our community, our society, and also an asset to our community and society, right? But after that, immigration comes in like, we don't even care. We just know you were arrested for this and this. And it's time for you to go. And for a lot of our Southeast Asian families, that's a hard thing to wait for your family member for 20, 30 years, and then get deported for life. And I only say that is because We suffer a lot of displacement. We suffer a lot of family separation. a lot of us are the ones that were saved during the genocide, during the war, the ones that survived. and then, this country doesn't look at our history. Right. and our history is sold like you are blessed to have a second chance to come to this country and make something of yourself. Right. And that's a totally blank statement. But then reality was, we came here with nothing. We came here with a lot of trauma, and we were just placed here with no explanation, no nothing. struggling to survive, struggling to understand this country. a lot of us like myself, fall into the criminal system. And we had, paid for what we've done. we've served our time and now to turn around our parents that are elderly now saying goodbye to them again. And, oh, that's a misstatement saying goodbye. They don't even let us say goodbye. You know, it's not like, oh yeah, say goodbye to, no, you got to go. And the way it's done is so cruelly done that, nobody ever think of the human. Nobody ever thinks of the heartbreaks, nothing. And right now, all I hear is the law says so. So we are a country of law, right? But we are human too.   Miko Lee: [00:32:56] Thanks for that rundown on criminalization. Peejay, do you want to add.   Peejay Ai: [00:32:59] Yeah, I think about, like, when I hear crimmigration, I think of, like, my own experience, you know, like, going through the pipeline list. I'm learning, like, there's a pipeline. You know, between the criminal justice system to the immigration system in the criminal justice system, a legal system, you know, like for me, when I came to United States, we settled in a very poverish, violent, crazy community. Right. there was not a lot of resources, you know, and then there's like a lot of gangs, a lot of like bias, racism was happening at the time. This is the time, like the war on drugs, tough on crime policy, it was out, and the prison boom. Right. Right. And so for me, I think like the lack of education, the lack of support was already like a prelude to my incarceration. Like there was a pipeline or established that one, one of these days, I'm going to be in prison because of all those X, Y, Z reason. And I'm not the only one. I think like that's pipeline created, you know, hardship for a lot of people, and then, for many Southeast Asian community end up in prison because of like, Dealing with trauma, you know, like we didn't have the resources to deal with a trauma, you know, it comes out in crimes comes out in gangs, it comes out and, you know, like adapting to environment by, being part of all this negative stuff. Right. And, you know, in a prison system. And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of us in being raised in prison, you know, learning about the prison system, through our lived experience, I have to suffer through it. Right.    And I think like what Bun said, you know, like, for Southeast Asian community. You know, being in prison system is just the first step, like surviving your environment, your resettlement is one thing, right? And then end up in a prison system is another step, right? And then the other step is that you end up in an ICE dentention center, simply not because of like what you did, it is who you are, like you were born with, you were born Asian or you were born an Islander, you were born, you know, API, right? And you have the immigration hole on you. And so they try to punish you again because of that very reason, you know, like if I was an American citizen. And I served my time, changed my life. I will be home. Right. I can give back to my community. I reconnect with my family. But for, you know, for API community, that's not always the case. You know, like where are you pre preset that, you know, like after prison, you're going to go into the immigration system and that's where you're going to take your next step, your journey. Right. And then after you, if you were to survive the immigration system, we will deport you, you know, and we'll separate you from your family again. And often like stuff that makes sense, like Cambodian, for example, and this is true for Laos, Vietnamese, Hmong, and a lot of other Southeast Asian communities, right? Like we were refugees, you know, we came to this country, you know, as kids. So we're not even born in the country that we left, you know, like I, I was never born in Cambodia. My mom left Cambodia during a genocide and I was born in Thai. So then I was in, they were trying to deport me to Cambodia to a country I'd never been to. I wasn't even born there, you know, so it didn't make no sense, right? But I feel like this, when I think about like crimmigration it's a pipeline, you know, it's a pipeline that it's very biased, it treats us very differently. if you're API, then you're out of luck, if you're API, you will be out of luck, you know, like you'd be treated differently. Right. and I, and I don't think that's a right system because it's the exact opposite of what the American society is supposed to stand for. Right. You know, especially like California, and you're like, we're a very liberal community, right? Like, we're a state that just, support, ideally, immigrants and all ethnic background. But then we treat people so differently, And not because of what I did, just simply because who I am.   Miko Lee: [00:35:54] Ke can you talk about the APSC4? What your campaign is about.   Ke Lam: [00:35:58] APSC4 is a campaign to save half of the staff from deportation back to a country that they have no ties to, , for me is Vietnam for Peejay and Bun it's Cambodia and Maria to the Philippines. It's basically trying to say, you know, we're not the same, like people that served time and got released are considered, I consider is redeemed, we changed our lives, we made restoration for the harms that we've done, and we're giving back to the community, and we're showing that people with a second chance can make society greater. And by deporting APSC4, deporting people like us, you're taking valuable resources from the community. People that understand the struggle and, the hardship that's going on in our community. So we're bringing voice to the voiceless. We're bringing, light to those that are still in the dark. And the other thing, the biggest part of APSC4 is we're hopeful for a lot of folks that are, not just impacted people, but for families. If APSC4 is able to get a part in, we're showing the community that when we fight, we win. That together, we can not just save APSC4, but we can actually save our community. I think that's one of the biggest mission of why we urge Gavin Newsom to pardon APSC4 is that way that we can show that not only are people that committed crime, not their crime, because so easy to label somebody that committed crime. You know, as that thing, right? , but we're not, I think that's the biggest part for me for APSC4 and I'd like to hear what Maria had to say on   Maria Legarde: [00:37:24] So much going through my head. APSC4 you know, we make up half of the staff for APSC, right? We represent the community that APSC serves. We're directly impacted. We've been through immigration. We, you know, with our family reunification. APSC4 is the bridge between the people that are inside fighting for their freedom, what freedom looks like out here, how, when they're out here, how they can bridge that gap in their community, how they can bridge that gap with their family, how can they start over by, you know, having a solid reintegration into a community that's gonna be supportive of their success. Because they were given second chances, who they were when they were 20 years ago are different people today. And I think, you know, with Nia, with Danny, right, they received pardons from Governor Newsom, you know, and it was during that time, too, when all the immigrants were at risk. And so for us, APSC4, It would really be, a loss in the community because we bridged that gap, Miko. Like, when I first came home, Ke was my bridge. I was in LA, right? People didn't know it, what to do for folks. immigrants coming home on parole. But we bridged it. Now LA knows what to do. LA knows where to start because Ke bridged that gap between local DMV, and head, Sacramento DMV. You know, that's what community work and that's what APSC4 is. We were the bridge, literally the bridge from our folks inside, to our community out here, to our elected officials that you invested in programs to rehabilitate us, to spend money on those rehabilitation, those fundings, and now that we're here, you're allowing you know, allowing an administration, like for your investment to just, what, go down the drain, because really that's what it is. Only because we weren't born here, only because of what we were dealt with at the time when we were facing challenges we didn't know how to, but now we have all the tools and we've proven that we've held our community, because our community has spoken for us. You know, ask Governor Newsom to please pardon the community members that are coming home that are all at risk of deportation and it's not just APSC4. very much. But we are being the voice for those that don't know how to advocate for themselves. We're showing them, look, we're putting ourselves out here. Because we know the value that we hold today. And our community believes in us. And with their support, hopefully, Newsome hears that, you know, changes his mind, I don't know. Do within his executive authority to save those people that are working in his vulnerable communities, in his marginalized communities, that are thriving, helping those communities thrive. And we are part of that. And we're hoping that he does it in a manner where, because it's imminent, we don't know when we get to talk to our community members again, to you, to have this discussion again, and so that's what APSC4 campaign is about.   Miko Lee: [00:40:50] And folks can find out more about the APSC campaign on their website, Asian Prisoner Support Committee, and we'll also post it on the Apex Express website. And folks can meet all of these amazing guests in person at an event that's happening February 28th from 6 to 8PM at Edge on the Square in San Francisco, Chinatown, where we will be hosting the reading from the book arriving. Can one of you talk about and and the other exciting thing about that is at that event, there's actually a zine. That's based on Maria's life story called when we were girls, that they'll be able to meet Maria and actually walk away with the zine. That's for people to take people can make a donation to actually receive the book. Can one of you talk about the book and what that experience was like working on the book and about what this event is coming up at the end of February.    Chanthon Bun: [00:41:40] Arriving is our second anthology. the first anthology was called The Others. So, Arriving is a collaboration of incarcerated writers. I'm an artist in that book also. it was, it's just stories. of folks that are incarcerated, API folks that are incarcerated, expressing, poems, expressing their trauma, expressing their live experience, expressing what it felt like to be API at a certain moment. in time with, immigration, with, coming to, uh, this country, acculturation, you know, we have, many different writers that, that collaborated with us. when I read certain, certain, writers, And they're telling my story. They're telling all our stories. So, if you guys can, check out, check out the second anthology, Arrival.   Miko Lee: [00:42:30] So we are recording this on the last day of January, 2025. And already in just a couple of weeks, our political system is in tumult based on Trump 2.0 policy. Can you talk a little bit about how, and I know the policy is changing daily. I mean, every day it's this onslaught, but from what you know right now, how has this impacted your community?   Chanthon Bun: [00:42:54] The community is in fear. All day today I was driving around going to meetings, but getting phone calls right in the middle. What's happening? What's going on? I heard and there's a lot of rumors. There's a lot of fear out there and folks are catching up to rumors and, you know, our folks like, hey, they're deporting us. Should I run? Should I stay? Should I check in? Should I check in with my family? Should I move out for a while? And it's just a lot of fear. The sad thing is they're calling me and they're probably calling everybody from APSC. because we have a wide connection with our former incarcerated folks and folks that are under, final removal order. The hard thing is, Like what you said, I tell him the same thing. Like I know it's fear. We have a lot of fear in our community. I know we're all worried. for the kids, for the family. And I can't give you no answers because it's changing every day. I wake up, I look at the news is something else new. There's something there. There's something there. And every day since the inauguration, it's just. hits our community and living with fear is such a mental breakdown. I had one guy, call me a friend of mine. He says, I do a door dash and I see them everywhere. What do I do? Like, I see them everywhere I'm living at. I see them in the corners. I see them eating in the restaurant. And, you know, I have to go pick up food there to drop off. and you know, the only thing I could really say, and it's not even something that, could calm them. It was like, be careful, you know, be aware. I mean, it's hard. I know it's hard, a heart advice but I myself is living in that same fear. being aware, but still trying to uplift our community in times like this. I mean, this is not going to be the first or last time that our community are in fear. It's happened before and we'll get through it. You know, with our community strength, we'll get through it. And the hard thing is, some of us won't get through it. Some of us will be deported. But somehow, as a community, we have to stand strong together. We have to just brace this. And, hopefully, it'll end soon.    Ke Lam: [00:44:57] Yeah, my biggest concern with what's going on right now is when community, fight each other like good immigrant versus bad immigrants. you know, how to stay away from that narrative, right? how not to pit each other against each other. So I think that's one of the things we seen on the first administration. and now with the second administration, especially when he's talking about going a little harder on it. I worry that, you know, family will. Start separating within each other. And, you know, with the, political views, certain family members who support Trump, who doesn't support Trump other part of the population I'm afraid of is those that are remaining silence. Those are that are hiding in the shadows. Right. Because they think by being invisible, they're that, that they'd be safe when in reality they're not. And so like, that's what caused, that's what's going on with this new mission. It causes people to hide and by hiding, by being siloed, that they become more vulnerable. And then I asked that community don't become like that. It's like the shame culture in our, you know, in our generation, the Southeast Asian, where we don't talk about nothing. Right. And that's actually not really productive for healing at all. That's actually the perpetuation of trauma. And so like we need to talk about crimmigration, criminal justice, we need to talk about social reform. Even something as simple as like, did you vote. That are who are able to vote like you need to vote. And don't complain about what's going on if you didn't vote. And so that's a hard conversation with our families, that I have with my family. You know, when they complain, I say, did you vote? No? Well, you got nothing to complain about. Right? But the other thing is, I think the other word that popped in my mind is proximity. How do we get our, people. To come close to the problem and to talk about it. We're all close to the problem, but we don't talk about it. And so like, you know, hopefully people like formerly incarcerated people, like APSC4, we're making that difference. We're bringing voice to our community that don't want to talk about it. Even our community that fight against us and tell us not to remain silent. Like we're like, no, like my family tell me, don't talk about it. Like, I'm like, I'm going to talk about it. You know, either you're with me or not, regardless, I'm gonna talk about it because we need to talk about we need to, we need to heal from all this trauma.   Miko Lee: [00:46:58] Thanks, Ke. Maria, what are your thoughts on how this new administration is impacting your population?    Maria Legarde: [00:47:05] Well, he succeeded in creating that climate of fear. That he wanted to, you know, that's the one thing that he did, but like yesterday I was with a group of community members up here in the Central Valley, and, we were talking about how, you know, when I was growing up, 1986, it's a revolution in the Philippines, when the church and the state, you know, it's always separated, right? But it was that one time. That the church and the state stood together to overthrow a dictator. And if it happened in history once, right, I, there's that hope. And so for my Filipino community that are in fear of what's going on in Trump 0, especially the ones in SoCal, know, knowing their rights and everything that we've talked about for the last week already, right? It's good to know those things, creating that space for them to talk is what my family is helping with others too. So here, my husband and my mom at work, like this is what needs to be done. You know, this is what needs to be done. There's a lot of our Hispanic over there, in the community, and this is what you need to tell them, translate it, so we know what we need to do, so it's our job to, disseminate the information and show them how it's done, so for our Filipino folks, It was actually, you know, my family, some of my family members that gave me a call. It's like, okay, so what do we do again? You know, I said, I'm going to send you some red cards in the mail if not printed. Like, well, I don't have a printer. So just doing my part to make sure that my family is well equipped, their family, their community, wherever they're at. It helps alleviate that fear. And I always tell them like, Yeah, sometimes it would creep in. And when it does happen to me, Bun knows, I go to Bun, I go to my mom, I go to my brother, I cry if I have to, because I just need to release it. And I tell them, just do it! If you need to yell, yell! But, you already succeeded. Then what? But like you said, you know, the laws are changing every day. And so, you earned it. Then fight for it. And when you fight for it, did things happen because you're in this fight and you don't give up and that's what resilient people are. Immigrants are resilient. We're the backbone of the economy. I mean, if they don't know that by now, I don't know what world they're living in or what planet they're living in, because we're showing them that we are the backbone of the economy. You know, and without the hardworking immigrants, would America be really that great? Because we add to that greatness.    Miko Lee: [00:49:26] Thanks, Maria. Peejay, what are your thoughts on Trump 2.0 and the impact on the community?   Peejay Ai: [00:49:31] I think it's terrorism, right? For me, I think, like, when I think about Trump 2.0, I mean, like, there's a lot of stuff on the news about, Trump using anti terrorism, sentiment, to try to scare people into passing all these bills and justifying, treating other people as terrorism, but I think, like, we live here, like, we are being terrorized right now, by the whole Trump 2. 0 process, by, like, separating people from their family, creating fear, attacking people at their home, like, all those are, like, Formal terrorism, you know, I think to me is like, how do you treat human being that way? You know, and, I can't believe that's the best option that you could think of. Of how to solve whatever immigration problem that they feel like they're having, but yeah, I think this is a way to like create separation between community, right? You're pitting people against each other. Like you said, you know, like when people live.   Miko Lee: [00:50:11] in a classic divide and conquer mode.   Peejay Ai: [00:50:14] divide and conquer. Yeah. And I don't think it's fair, you know, I don't think anyone have a right to treat human being that way, you know? create more trauma and justify it as the right thing to do. Cause I don't think, creating that kind of pain. I mean, it's human right. You know, but you're violating, human right. And even the constitution of being violated and that, and people think it's okay that is happening, you know, so if, if, and the constitution are created to safeguard people, right. Safeguard United States the citizen. Right. So if you can't even honor your own constitution, how do you know anyone here is safe? I think we're creating. A lot of damage, right? I think this administration is creating a lot of damage in this policy. And I think, I don't think we're going to recover from it. And people is going to wake up one day and realize that the people they care about is no longer there. And it's going to be too late to be sad because, you know, they're gone, right? and I think people should do something about it. You know, now we have a chance to come together as a community and fight back, you know, and keep each other safe and show the world like what community can do for each other, what it means to each other, right? And I'm, I'm sad, you know, I'm really sad. I have a lot of fear for myself, for my, brothers and sisters, APSE four, and I'm very sad for my community around me and the client that I serve, you know, I think it's tragic. And we're now, At this stage, you know, being in America, I mean, like, that's just insane to me. yeah, I think terrorism has a very crazy definition and I think, you know, if you unpack it, you can see it happening in this, with the way people are being treated right now, from this whole process.   Miko Lee: [00:51:28] Feel like we all need what Ke's saying, take a breath and, lean into the resilience we were talking about earlier. This is why I was asking you questions. You all are some of the strongest people I know, like how do we keep the strength? How do we continue on? I want to move us toward my last question for all of you, which is around a liberatory future and what does it look like? Dr. Bettina Love, who, as you all know, is an amazing teacher around abolitionism, talks about how abolitionist teaching is not just about tearing down and building up, but also about the joy necessary to be in solidarity with others. Knowing that your struggle for freedom is constant, but that there is beauty in the camaraderie of creating a just world. So my question for us to leave in a dreamy note, is what is your dream of a liberatory future? What does that look like for you?   Chanthon Bun: [00:52:22] I'm a father, grandfather. For me, a liberatory future is folks could just live with their family happy. Thank you. You know, we have the worries of, making money and all that, but beside all that, just having the breath to share with your, your family, you know, the feeling of true freedom, right? Like, I don't even know how that looks like or how it feels. Cause haven't got there yet, but there's moments when I spend with my kids and my grandkids. So I want that moment to be longer.   Miko Lee: [00:52:52] Thanks, Bun. Anybody else have their dream of a liberatory future?   Ke Lam: [00:52:57] For me, a future is where there is no us versus them. There is a place where community could come together, break bread, despite different languages. and then part of that is, where members of community that has been a silo for so long can actually come to, to ask for help. You know, there's no fear to, right now I have a friend who's so afraid to ask for help and in the shadow, because a part of it is also a liberatory future. It's like, Not carrying on the shame of the past, breaking a lot of those intergenerational trauma. All right, where it's, you know, it doesn't matter if you've been convicted of a crime, if you're a refugee, if you're darks complected, or you're like completed, there's like no biases in a laboratory future where we share in each other's wealth and happiness. your happiness is my happiness. And there's no need to like, I need to have what you have to be on the same status like it's like no social class, like, there is none. We're all equal. You know, we all have universal health care and, and education, and it's just, and universal childcare as well. We definitely need that because it's so expensive, but it just, it just, for me, it's a place where it's like a utopia, a liberatory future. It's like a dream. Right. And I think, A liberatory future is like one win at a time, but not just one small one, but big wins.   Miko Lee: [00:54:20] Thanks, Key. Peejay, what are your thoughts?   Peejay Ai: [00:54:23] I just want to not live in fear. you know I've Live in fear since the day I was born, and I continue to live in fear to today. And I feel that journey has not ended for me and my family. You know, fear from being murdered and fear from genocide, fear of incarceration, fear of family separation. You know, I haven't had, I have not had a stable life. You know, until today, I'm still living in limbo, right? I was born into it. And so for me, it's just not simple, you know, like I just want what any kid wants, you know, in a family, you know, to be loved, to feel safe, to be accepted. And to be with my family, that's really all I want, you know, just to be a normal kid, to be a normal person with a normal life without having to be afraid all the time.   Miko Lee: [00:55:01] Thanks, Peejay. Maria, what are your thoughts on what does a liberatory future look like?    Maria Legarde: [00:55:06] Think for me, like, everyone shared, you know, what the future looks like. one thing is that not have, not looking behind me or, you know, just walking, enjoying a walk out there without having to fear that is somebody going to come out of that corner. want a future where, you know, finally I'm at a place in my life where I'm able to make Decisions, good rational decisions I'm able to take care of myself, my family, my loved ones, my community, I'm able to give back more than I thought I could, you know, and I'm living that life where I can actually make a difference. You know, who would have thought little old me? Is going to be able to make a difference in people's lives. I just want to be able to continue that and love, you know, and share that love and joy and with everybody. And that's the kind of future like what he said, you know, the kind of future where everybody would have the help that they need. If they need someone, they can go to the next person without having to fear if they're going to get be judged or treated differently because of the color of their skin. Or because of the way they talk or because of the way they look, you know, I just want that kind of future where we can all be happy, and life is full of challenges, but I want that future that we, I know that we can all depend on each other and grow together. That's the kind of future that I want.    Miko Lee: [00:56:27] Thank you so much to the APSC4 Peejay, Maria, Bun, and Ke for sharing your stories, your fight, your leadership, your advocacy, and also what does a liberatory future look like, which is just living without fear, being able to be with our families, being able to celebrate and take joy in beloved community, and not to have to worry, but just breathe and be with each other. I really appreciate y'all and all the work that you're doing and encouraging our big community to come out and celebrate February 28th at Edge on the Square in San Francisco, Chinatown. Thanks, y'all. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.    The post APEX Express – 2.6.25 – Arriving: APSC4 Part I appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. In this vintage APEX episode, Host editor Swati Rayasam continues to highlight the podcast Continental Shifts created by bi-coastal educators Gabriel Anthony Tanglao and Estella Owoimaha- Church. They embark on a voyage in search of self, culture and the ancestors. Last time we featured the ConShifts podcast, Gabriel and Estella gave a quick introduction and talked about wayfinding in the context of their work. Tonight on the podcast they're talking about anti-blackness in the PI community with Courtney Savali Andrews and Jason Fennel. Just a quick note that both Courtney and Jason's audio quality isn't the best on this podcast. So it might get a little bumpy. Enjoy the show. Episode Transcripts – Anti-blackness in the PI Community with Courtney-Savali Andrews and Jason Finau Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Swati Rayasam: [00:00:35] Good evening everyone. You're listening to APEX express Thursday nights at 7:00 PM. My name is Swati Rayasam and I'm the special editor for this episode. Tonight, we're going to continue to highlight the podcast continental shifts created by bi-coastal educators Gabriel Anthony Tanglao and Estella Owemma Church who embark on a voyage in search of self, culture and the ancestors. Last time we featured the ConShifts podcast, Gabriel and Estella gave a quick introduction and talked about wayfinding in the context of their work. Tonight on the podcast they're talking about anti-blackness in the PI community with Courtney Savali Andrews and Jason Fennel. Just a quick note that both Courtney and Jason's audio quality isn't the best on this podcast. So it might get a little bumpy. Enjoy the show.   Courtney-Savali Andrews & intro music: [00:01:32] These issues are fluid, these questions are fluid. So I mean, I had to go and try get a PHD just to expand conversation with my family .   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:01:51] How do we uproot anti-blackness in API spaces? On today's episode, we explore this critical question with two incredible guests. Courtney and Jason share their stories, experiences, and reflections on ways our API communities can be more affirming of black identity and black humanity.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:13] What up, what up? Tālofa lava, o lo'u igoa o Estella. My pronouns are she/her/hers, sis, and uso.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:02:23] What's good, family? This is Gabriel, kumusta? Pronouns he/him.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:29] I have the great pleasure tonight of introducing our guest today, Jason Finau and Courtney-Savali Andrews. Jason is a social worker with a focus on mental health and substance abuse based in San Francisco. Courtney is an assistant professor of musicology at Oberlin College in Ohio. But I also want to be very intentional about not centering professions above who we are and who we come from. So I'm going to go to Jason first. Jason, please share with us who you are, how you identify and who are your people.   Jason Finau: [00:02:58] Hi everyone. Estella, Gabriel, again, thank you so much for hosting us in this space. My name is Jason. I identify as black and Samoan. My father is a black American from Mississippi and my mother is from American Samoa, specifically in the village of Nua and Sektonga. As a military, brat kind of grew up back and forth between Hawaii and Southern California. So I have a very strong love for the ocean and where my peoples come from. So, very excited to be on your podcast.   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:03:27] [Speaking Samoan] Tālofa lava I am Courtney-Savali Andrews from Seattle, Washington. I identify as an African American Samoan. My father is from Seattle, born and raised in Seattle, from Opelika, Alabama. That's where his roots are, and my mother is from American Samoa from the villages of Nwoma Sitsona and Aminawe. And Jason and I are maternal cousins.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:03:59] I did not know that. [Laughs] Good to know. Actually, just for some context, Jason and Courtney, you were one of my blessings in 2020. I received an email message about a space called Black + Blue in the Pacific, and it was a flier for a Zoom gathering with other black Pacifica peoples and I jumped on the call, not knowing what to expect, but it was only one of two times I can remember in my entire life feeling truly seen as black Samoan, and not having to separate those two or shrink any part of myself or who I am. So Jason, can you please share what the space is about and how it came to be?   Jason Finau: [00:04:42] Sure. That warms my heart that that was your reaction to participating in that space. So this was kind of born out of all of the protests against racial injustices across the country, especially with George Floyd and the other countless, unfortunately, countless deaths of black men and women at the hands of police brutality. And EPIC, which is the Empowering Pacific Island Communities, a nonprofit organization out in Long Beach reached out to me to kind of talk about how we can address anti-blackness within the Pacific Island communities in speaking with Tavae Samuelu, who is the executive director of EPIC and Teresa Siagatonu who is an amazing creative poet, artist, everything. We got together, started talking about like, well what was the real purpose for this group? Why are they reaching out to me specifically in the work that I do? And I think that part of that came from the fact that I am a licensed clinical social worker and that I do have a background in mental health and working in trauma, generational trauma and looking at how we as human beings look to take care of ourselves in a community that we as black human beings look to take care of ourselves in a community that doesn't value who we are and what that looks like for those of us who belongs to two different communities, one being the black and then the other being the Pacific Island community. And then even, you know, bringing that down even further to the, within the Pacific Island community, being in the Polynesian community and then being specifically in the Samoan community.   So in talking with that, the first person I thought about when they asked me to facilitate a group where we can gather other individuals who identified as being black and Pacific Islander, the first person I thought about co-facilitating this group with was my cousin Courtney-Savali Andrews. Just given the fact that she has done so much in research and education and understanding about PI cultures, with the work that she's done here in the States, as well as out in the Pacific, out in New Zealand and Samoa, and I'll let her talk more about that, but this is another part of the reasons why I thought about her instantly, and also because she and I have had these conversations about what it means to be black and Samoan, and to identify as both, and to sometimes have to navigate being one over the other in spaces, and even in spaces where It's a white space and having to figure out like which one are we like code switching between. So in thinking about this group and in thinking about this space, you know, one of the larger conversations that came out of those who engage in this group, that we have every second Tuesday of the month is that representation of seeing other folks who are also black and Pacific Islander who aren't related to us. And so these are the conversations that Courtney and I have had. I've had the same conversations with other first cousins who also happened to be black and Samoan, but I've never actually have met like one hand I can count on how many times I've met another person who identified as black and Pacific Islander. And so being able to host this space and to focus it, to start off that focus on anti-blackness and to talk about how we're all working to deal with what it means to say Black Lives Matter when someone who visually presents as Samoan or someone who visually presents as Tongan or any other of the Pacific Islands. Like, what does it mean for them to say Black Lives Matter, when those of us who identify as both black and Pacific Islanders aren't really feeling how that message is as substantial as they may be trying to, to come across.   Being able to gather in a space where we see other folks who look like us, who shared experiences that were so similar to what we have shared and what we have gone but also very different. And looking at how, you know, some folks grew up identifying primarily with the Samoan culture, whereas other folks grew up primarily identifying with the black culture and not being able to reconcile either one. So seeing that spectrum of experiences was able to provide us with an opportunity to grow for each other, to support each other, and to learn from each other. I was very thankful and grateful for having, for EPIC being able to step in and seeing that as an organization that does focus on empowering Pacific Island communities that they understood that when we look at the micro communities within that larger macro level of a PI community, looking at that individual black and PI cohort and understanding that that experience is different than the general experience. And so they wanted to make sure that we're facilitating those conversations, that we're holding safe spaces for those conversations, and that we're encouraging those conversations. So I really do appreciate them so much for that, and not taking it upon themselves to tell us how we should be engaging in these conversations, how we should be feeling, and asking us what we should be doing to get PIs to understand the impact of anti-blackness, within the, in the PI community for us personally.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:09:29] And as you were talking, I was laughing at myself thinking, yeah, I can count on one hand too, aside from my brothers, the other black Samoans or Polys I know, and I had an experience in college as a freshman, Cal State Northridge, in my EOP cohort. I met another Leilani, Leilani is my middle name, I met another Leilani who happened to be half black, half Samoan, also from South LA. And we saw each other and ran to each other like we were long lost siblings or something [laughs] and we just knew, and it was the first time I had seen someone who looked like me that was not The Rock. [Jason laughs] Like, the only person to look to, that was yeah. I don't know, it wasn't enough to have, you know, The Rock as my only representation. I appreciate him, but definitely wasn't enough. And shout out to EPIC and Tavae, because I think I mentioned earlier, being in Black + Blue was, it was like the second time in my life. I can say that I felt seen and one of the first times I felt seen as Samoan was at 30. I happen to be in a workshop led by Tavae on organizing PI communities. That was the first time I met her, but I left her session like in tears because I felt a whole part of whatever was happening in the conversation, the festivities, I could be like my full self.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:11:00] And those spaces are so important for us, right? To have that community, to be able to connect. So Jason, I appreciate you sharing that origin story of Black + Blue. And my question for Courtney actually, to bring in some of your experience into the space. Why was it important to create or forge a space such as this one with Black + Blue?   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:11:22] Well, I will say that I've had the privilege of a different experience having met several African American and African Pacific Islanders in Seattle through my experience in the US. And I mean, this goes all the way back to my childhood. I went to a predominantly, and this is going to sound pretty interesting, but in the 70s, I went to a predominantly Filipino-Italian parish that was budding a Samoan congregation and that particular congregation was connected to the Samoan congregational church that my mother was affiliated with. So, of course, this is family based, right? But growing up in that particular setting, I was affiliated with many cultural dance groups, particularly Polynesian dance troupes and such, and through those various communities I would run into many particularly Samoan and African American children. So that was something that was pretty normalized in my upbringing. On the other side of that, my father's family was very instrumental in various liberation movements, affiliations with the Black Panthers. And so I also grew up in a very black nationalist leaning family. So, I mean, I couldn't run away from just anything that had to do with considering identity politics and what it meant to be “both and” so the wrestle started really early with me. I also want to say that because I was indoctrinated in so many questions of what it meant to be whatever it is that I was at the time. Cause you know these issues are fluid and the questions are fluid. So that extended all the way throughout even my educational journey having pursued not just a musical degree, but also degrees in cultural studies. It was the only place that I could really wrestle and engage with literature that I was already introduced to as a child, but to, you know, have opportunities to deep dive into that literature, highlighting certain figures, engaging with the writers of these literature. So by the time I got to college, it was piano performance and Africana studies for me. In the arts, through my music through musical theater performance, my Polynesian dance background, it all just kind of jumbled up into this journey of always seeking spaces that allow for that type of inquiry.   So, after undergrad, this turns into a Fullbright study and then eventually a PHD in Music and Pacific and Samoan studies. In that journey, I did not think that the outcome would be as rich as it became. I did seek out one of my supervisors, who was Teresia Teaiwa. A very prominent poet, spoken word artist and scholar, and she was the founder of the Pacific Studies program at Victoria University in Wellington, New Zealand. So I went to study underneath her. She actually is African American Banaban so from the Kiribati islands and amongst her like astounding output of work, she reached out to me and four other African American Pacific women historian artists, like we all share the same general identities to start an organization, or at least an affinity conversationalist group, called Black Atlantic, Blue Pacific. This was back in 2014 when she started the conversation with us again, I had an opportunity to now, across the world, connect with other African American Pacific peoples that were rooted in other spaces. So I was the one who was, you know, born and raised in the US But then we had Joy Enomoto an African American Hawaiian who's based in Hawaii. Ojeya Cruz, African American [?] and LV McKay, who is African American Maori based in Aotearoa. So we got together and started having very specific conversations around our responses to Black Lives Matter as it was gaining much momentum in 2015. And it was my supervisor Teresia, that said, “You have to open up about how you feel,” and particularly because I was so far away from what home was for me, she offered up a space for me to not only explore further what my response to the movement was, but also just my identity in tandem with the rest of them. So we actually began to create performance pieces along with scholarly writing about that particular moment and went to this festival of Pacific arts in 2016 which was in Guam and pretty much had a very ritualistic talk. It wasn'tinteractive, it was our space to share what our experience and stories were with an audience who did not have a chance to engage with us on it. It was us just claiming our space to say that we exist in the first place. And that was a very powerful moment for me and for the others. So to connect this back to four years later, when Jason reaches out about Black + Blue in the Pacific, the name of this group actually came from the publication that we put together for that 2016 FESPAC presentation. It really was a moment that I actually didn't think would extend out in the ways that it has, but it also felt like a duty to extend that conversation and Teresia Teaiwa has since passed, but it felt like, you know, this is what, this is the work that, that I've given you to do. So it just felt very natural to join with my cousin in this work and realize what this conversation could be across the water again, back home in the US.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:18:09] Listening to you I was I don't want to say envious, but I didn't have that same experience growing up. And, you know, oftentimes I wonder where I would be in my identity crisis, which seems like it has lasted for so long, if I had shared in similar experience as a child. I grew up in predominantly black communities and all black apostolic school and I just, I didn't have other, I mean I ran up to the one girl I saw as a college freshman and squeezed her. So that tells you a lot, but I shared similar experiences as an undergrad or in college in majoring in black studies, majoring in theater, musical theater and that being the space where I got to at least express some of who I am or who I want it to be, but definitely trying to create what you experienced or had for my daughter now, trying to make sure that she gets to be as pro black and black and proud as she wants to be rocking her Angela Davis fro while also wearing her Puletasi, trying really hard to make sure that she has all of that. Growing up, I never felt like I was welcomed in Samoan or Poly spaces or fully in black spaces either. I felt like folks had to make a point to other me or erase part of my identity for their convenience. And it's only now that I am learning who my Samoan relatives are, what are our namesake or the villages that my family comes from and reconnecting with aunts and uncles and my grandparents through the powers of Facebook. But over the years, it's been a long like push and pull. And it's because our last names are, our names are very distinctive. And so when you put that name in there suddenly like, “Oh, I found all these relatives.” Like I didn't have to do the ancestry thing because you put the name in on Facebook and all of a sudden you find all your cousins and you're seeing childhood pictures where like your own kid can't tell who's who so I know we're related. You know what I mean? But anyway, like over the years it's been this like back and forth of me deleting relatives and then, you know, letting them come back because I don't know how to broach the conversation about their anti-blackness. I don't know what to tell them when they post something that is very racist and absolutely not okay. And I don't know what to do other than, you know, I'm just going to delete you and then maybe 2 years from now, I'll, as you as a friend, again, we could try this one more time. And I have one aunt in particular, a great aunt who there was just a misunderstanding. I didn't respond to a message right away after not seeing her since I was maybe 5 or 6. I can't remember. But in my 20s, I'm getting married, she's sending me messages and I didn't respond right away. And the response I got included her calling me the N word. And so then I'm like, “Oh, okay.” I was like, trying to open up and let you all back into my life. And here we are again. So I'm done. And so I spent a lot of time, like picking and choosing who I was going to let in or not and so I've started this journey at 30. I want to learn my language. I want to figure out who is in my family tree. Who are my people? Where do I come from? And be selective about who I choose to actually grow relationships with. Like I can still know who they are, where they come from, where I come from, what my roots are, and also make choices about who gets to be in my life. And I'm only just now realizing that at 32, as I try to learn my language and reclaim what is mine, what belongs to me. All of that aside, can you relate to any of that? And if so, is there an experience that you feel comfortable sharing?   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:22:00] I absolutely relate to that, to the extent, I mean, I had to go and try to get a PhD just to expand conversation with my family and I had to do it across the water. I got to a point where, just asking questions, about, you know, cultural matters, or even trying to navigate my way through a family event, while I've had many wonderful experiences, just trying to, again dig deep to understand why are we who we are, why are our family issues what they are those kinds of things, I would always hit a particular wall that was met with either like, “Why do you even care?” Or “Oh, that's not important.” But it was, this is not important for you. And I, you know, took that with a lot of like, “Well, what's that mean? I can learn anything.” And then again, that, that comes from this, like I said, black nationalist attitude of I am wholly wonderful, just in my skin as I am. Therefore, I'm smart. I'm, you know, all of those kinds of things. So it became a learning quest for me to say, not only am I going to go after learning as much as I can. I'm going to get the highest degree you could possibly get in it only to now reach a point. I mean, I'm 10 years into this program and it's been the one-two punch all the way through. And now I'm on the other side of this journey, realizing that even in that quest, this really doesn't change many of my conversations if I go back into my family, nor is it really looked upon as a notable achievement, which is to be questioned because it's like, I've done everything that I possibly can. But at the same time, it really does feel like this is the black experience as it connects to respectability politics. On another side of thing I suppose, try to aspire to be a race woman for the Pacific and specifically the Samoan identity. And that's just a really, really tall order. Right. All that to say, yes, I absolutely identify and realize that my conversation can only be had with those who are open to have it. I think that right now in this particular moment, we have more Pacific peoples and more people in our families that are willing to at least sit at the table and have conversation because they have new language around what they are wanting to know and what they would like to see for their own community. So that's really, really refreshing and inspiring.   Jason Finau: [00:24:46] I agree. I definitely [have] a lot of experience and feeling in feeling othered and feeling that my black identity was conveniently left out in a lot of conversations and a lot of learning lessons, I think, growing up. In contrast to Courtney's upbringing, I was born and raised on the Samoan side. It was everything Samoan related. My first language was Samoan. My mom stopped speaking Samoan to me at home because she recognized that I was struggling in school early on like in pre- k, kindergarten, first grade, because I couldn't keep up with the other students and they didn't have ESL for Samoan speaking kids. So, I think as a protective factor, my mother just started to distance me from the Samoan language in order to excel in school. And I think that a lot of having been able to grow up in a very large Samoan family and engaging in a lot of the traditional activities and cultural practices and doing the dances and going to a local [?] church. Having that has always been great but I think that seeing the way or listening to the way that other Samoans would refer to their own family members who were black and Pacific Islander or black and Samoan in those families, a lot of the times the language is just so derogatory, but they, that language never used to, or was never directed at me. And I think that part of that was because that people knew who my mother was and they knew who my grandparents were and I think I was insulated from a lot of that negative talk, negative behaviors against those who identified as black and then like the children that were products of those Samoan and black relationships. I reflect on that quite often because I think that when listening to a lot of the stories that I've been able to bear witness to in our black and PI group. You know, like I mentioned before that we are seeing like two different, two different upbringings, two different ways that people experience their lives as being black and Samoan. And for me, it was like, because I was wrapped in that Samoan culture, that black identity of mine was never really addressed or talked about. That then it made me feel like I just, I'm a Samoan boy. I don't identify as someone who was black. I didn't identify as someone who was black or was comfortable with identifying as someone who was black until my 20s. Late 20s, early 30s, you know when I introduced myself, it was always Samoan first black second, everything that I did, instead of joining the Black Student Union group, I joined all the Asian and Pacific Island groups at any school that I went to again, as I said, being a military brat, I went to a lot of schools growing up before college. And then in college a lot of different universities. And when I went to those programs, like in high school and junior high, I'd always be, I would always join the Asian Pacific Island groups because I didn't feel comfortable being a part of the black, any of the Black Student Unions or any black affinity groups, because again like I said my for me internally, I was Samoan and that's where I wanted to be. I didn't recognize for myself because I could see it in the mirror that I presented as someone like a black male and I think that part of the reason why I also steered more towards Asian and Pacific Island groups was because I wanted people to see me as this black guy walking into your Asian and Pacific Island group, who also is Samoan but you don't know that until I tell you. And that was for me to share and for me to just sit there for them to stare at me until I made that truth known. And that was my way of addressing that issue within the PI community. But it was also a way for me to run away from that black identity to hide from that black identity because I wasn't, I didn't want to be identified that way when I was in the API group. It's because I wanted to be identified as Samoan and not black, even though I presented. So in thinking about how a lot of those conversations went, I think one situation in particular really stuck out for me. And that's when I did a study abroad in New Zealand during undergrad and, you know, there's this whole thing about the term mea uli in Samoan to describe someone who is black and Samoan and that was the term that I remember using and being told. As a kid, growing up, my mom used it, didn't seem like there was an issue. All family members, everyone in the community is using it. So I just assumed that is exactly how it was. I never had the wherewithal to think about how to break down that word, mea uli, and think of it as like a black thing. So I was in New Zealand studying abroad and I met some students, some Samoan students in one of my classes. They invited me to their church, the local [?] church. I was like, oh great, I'll go to church while I'm here. Satisfy my mom. She's back home in Oceanside, California, telling me that I need to go to church, that I need to focus on my studies. So I do this. I go with them. And as they're introducing me to folks at their church, when I describe myself as mea uli I mean, you can hear a pin drop. It was like, these people were I don't know, embarrassed for me, embarrassed for themselves to hear me use that word to describe myself. It was just, I was, I don't think I've ever been more embarrassed about my identity than I was in that one moment, because then my friend had to pull me off to the side, just like “Oh, we don't use that word here.” Like she's like, schooling me on how derogatory that term was for those Samoans in New Zealand who identify as black and Samoan. And mind you, the friends that I was with, they were, they're both sides of the family are Samoan, and so this is a conversation that they're having with me as people who aren't, who don't identify as black and Samoan. And so then when I, I brought that back to my mom and I was just like, “Did you know this? Like, how could you let me go through life thinking this, saying this, using this word, only to come to this point in my adult life where now I'm being told that it's something derogatory.” That was a conversation that my mom and I had that we were forced to have. And I think for her, very apologetic on her end, I think she understood where I was coming from as far as like the embarrassment piece. But from her, from her perspective and her side of it, she didn't speak English when she first got to the United States either. She graduated from nursing school in American Samoa, had been in American Samoa that whole time, born and raised, came to the United States, California, didn't speak a lick of English, and was just trying to figure out her way through the whole navigating a prominently white society and trying to figure out English. And so I think language was one of the least of her worries, as far as that might have been because it's just like coupled on with a bunch of things. I mean, this is a Samoan woman who doesn't speak very much English, who is now in the military, in the Navy. So, in an occupation that is predominantly male, predominantly white and predominantly English speaking. And so, for her, there was a lot of things going on for herself that she had to protect herself from. And I think she tried to use some of those same tactics to protect me. But not understanding that there is now this added piece of blackness, this black identity that her child has to navigate along with that Samoan identity. And so, we've had some really great conversations around the choices that she had to make that she felt like in the moment were the right choices to keep me safe, to get me what I needed in order to graduate high school on time unlike a lot of our other family members, to go to college, you know, again, being the first one to have a bachelor's degree and the first one to have a master's degree, within our family tree. And so, a lot of the successes that I've had in life to be able to get to this point and have these conversations and to facilitate a group like black and PI, Black + Blue in the Pacific and to be on a podcast with all of you, were the sacrifices and choices that my mom had to make back.   I say all that because those, the choices that she had to make, she wasn't able to make them in an informed way that would have promoted my black identity along with my Samoan identity. And so having to navigate that on my own. I didn't grow up with my dad, so I don't have any connection. I didn't have any connection to the black side of my family. And so I didn't have, and then growing up in Hawaii and in Southern California, primary like San Diego, in the education piece, like the majority of my teachers were white, or in San Diego, a lot of them were Latin, Latinx, and then in Hawaii, a lot of them, they were either white or they were some type of Asian background like a lot of Chinese, a lot of Japanese teachers, but I didn't have any, I never had a Polynesian teacher, Pacific Islander teacher, and I never had a black teacher until I got to college, and then seeing that representation also had an impact on me. I think one of my most favorite sociology professors at California State University in San Marcos. Dr. Sharon Elise was just this most phenomenal, eye opening, unapologetically black woman. And it was just like the first time I was ever able to like be in the company of that type of presence and it was glorious. And I think it was part of the reason why I switched from pre med to social work. In thinking about, and going back to your original question about an experience of being othered or feeling like your black identity is erased in that company. Like I said, I walk confidently amongst and within Samoan communities, but not nearly as confidently as I do in black spaces. And even when I'm in those Samoan spaces, I'll walk into it, but then the first thing I'll do is share my last name. And then the moment I say my last name, then it's like, okay, now we can all breathe. I've been accepted. They know who I am because of who my family is based on the name that I provide. When I go into a black space, I don't have that. I don't have that convenience. I don't have that luxury. And so I think that's another reason why I was okay with allowing that black identity, my black identity to be ignored, to be silenced, to be othered because it was just easier. I think I had a lot more luxuries being on the Samoan side, than being on the black side. And now where I am today, both personally and professionally, a much, much more confident conversation can be had for myself, with myself about my identity. And then having those same conversations with my family and with my friends and in thinking about hard conversations with family members around anti-blackness, around the use of derogatory language, or around just the fact like, because we are half Samoan that we could never fully appreciate the Samoan culture and tradition. But I look at my cousins who are full Samoan, who barely speak the language, who barely graduated from high school or like are in situations where they aren't able to fully utilize an identity that can bring them the fullness or richness of their background. I'm like, all right, well, if you want to have conversations about someone who was half versus full, and then looking at those folks who are back on the island and what their perception of full Samoans are on the continental US and all of those things, like, there's so many layers between the thought processes of those who consider themselves Samoan or even just Pacific Islander, and what does that mean to them based on where they're from. And then you add that biological piece, then it's like, okay, well those who are on the continental US or outside of American Samoa or the independent nation of Samoa, what does that mean for them to be Samoan [unintelligible].   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:35:15] One of the things that you said that really resonated with me was when you were sharing the story of how your mother had, as you said, tactics to protect you as she navigated in these predominantly white spaces. That reminds me of a quote by Dr. Cornel West, who talked about having our cultural armor on. And when Courtney was sharing her story, I was thinking about how there's also educational armor and linguistic armor, and we put on layers of armor to protect ourselves in these white supremacist institutions and spaces. So both of you sharing your story and journey really was powerful for me, and also grounding it in the formative years of your educational journey and your race consciousness journey. One of the pivotal factors in my evolution and my race consciousness was being a part of the Black Student Union in my undergraduate school. And I'm Filipino, my mother's from Manila, my father's from Pampanga province. And it was actually the black community that embraced and raised my consciousness around my own liberation as an Asian person, as a Filipino person. So I'm a student in many ways, and my intellectual and spiritual evolution was really informed by the black liberation movement.   Swati Rayasam: [00:36:43] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online at kpfa.org. Coming up is “March 4 Education” on the Anakbayan Long Beach May Day mixtape.   SONG   Swati Rayasam: [00:37:03] That was “Find my Way” by Rocky Rivera on her Nom de Guerre album. And before that was “March 4 Education” on the Anakbayan Long Beach May Day mixtape. And now back to the ConShifts podcast.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:44:12] So this is all very powerful and grounds us back in the topic that we're trying to unpack. So I have a question for both of you on how do we begin to interrogate anti-blackness in Asian and Pacific Island communities, specifically among Polynesians, Asians, Micronesians. How might we uproot anti-blackness in the spaces that we find ourselves?   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:44:36] I think we need to start with identifying what blackness is in these conversations before we get to the anti part. Are we talking about skin? Are we talking about, you know, cultural expression? Are we talking about communities, black communities within our own respective nations? So one of the things that in thinking through this, today's conversation, you know, I was thinking that, you know, starting with identifying our indigenous black communities at home, you know, in pre-colonial times. And even as we have the development of the nation state, just seeing where people are in their understandings of those communities would be a wonderful place to start before we even get to the drama that is white supremacy in the US and how that monster manifests here and then spreads like a rash to the the rest of the colonial world. I would really start with like, what are we talking about in terms of black and blackness before we go into how people are responding in a way to be against it.   Jason Finau: [00:45:52] Yeah, that was solid Court. Definitely providing that definition of what blackness is in order to figure out exactly what anti-blackness is. Kind of adding to that is looking around at the various organizations that are out there. When we go back to the earlier examples of being in API spaces, but primarily seeing more Asian faces or Asian presenting faces, thinking about, and I'm just thinking about like our Black + Blue group, like, there are so many of us who identify as black and Pacific Islander or black and Asian. And yet the representation of those folks in spaces where nonprofit organizations, community organizations are trying to do more to advance the API agenda items to make sure that we get more access to resources for our specific communities, whether that's education, healthcare, employment resources, all of that. When we look at those organizations who are pushing that for our community, you just see such a lack of black and brown faces who are part of those conversations. And I would have to say that for those organizations and for the people who will participate in any of those activities that they promote. To look around and not see one person who presents as black and may identify as black and PI seems kind of problematic to me because, you know, I used to think that growing up in the 80s and 90s that outside of my cousins, there were no other black and PI people. I'm learning now as I get older and again with our Black + Blue group, that there are so many of us, I mean, there are folks who are older than I am. There are a number of people around the same age. And then there's so many young kids. And so for none of those folks to feel, and that is another, that was a common theme, from our group was that a lot of the folks just didn't feel comfortable in PI spaces to be if they were black in and Hawaiians might be comfortable in the Hawaiian space to speak up and say anything or in whatever Pacific Island space that they also belong to is that they just didn't feel comfortable or seen enough to be a part of those. I think you know, once we identify what blackness is within our within the broader API community, we can also look at well, you know, why aren't there more people like us, those of us who do identify as black and PI, why aren't more of us involved in these conversations, being asked to be a part of these conversations, and helping to drive a lot of the messages and a lot of the agendas around garnering resources for our community.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:48:18] One of the pieces that's really present for me, when you started asking the question on how we define blackness before we begin the conversation around anti-blackness reminded me of Steve Biko learning about the black consciousness movement in South Africa and the anti apartheid movement. I had the opportunity to travel to South Africa for global learning fellowship and started to learn more about the anti apartheid movement. But when Steve Biko discussed black consciousness as an attitude of mind and a way of life, it got me thinking in one direction while at the same time in this conversation that we're having here, when we talk about colorism with post colonial society, the Philippines being one of them, how does colorism show up? I'm wrestling that. So I just appreciate you bringing that question into the space.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:49:05] So Black + Blue, it's an affinity space for black Polys and I need to just say thank you for providing the space. It has been therapeutic and healing and again, everything I knew I needed and had no idea where to find. So I appreciate it so much. So I'm wondering, I guess, how do we create similar spaces for other folks? Or is there a need to like, does Black + Blue just exist for us? And is that enough? Or do we need to start thinking about doing more to create similar spaces for other folks? And I'll leave that to whoever wants to respond before my final question.   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:49:45] I'll just jump in and say that I think that, you know, any opportunity for folks to gather to create and wrestle through dialogue is absolutely necessary at this particular point in time with social media and a fairly new cancel culture that exists. It's really a detriment to having people understand how to connect and even connect through disagreement. So I think that there should always be space made for people to have tough conversations, along with the celebratory ones. So I'm always all for it.   Jason Finau: [00:50:23] Yeah, I would agree. I think if I've learned anything out of being able to facilitate the Black + Blue group that there is just such a desire for it and unknown and even an unknown desire. I think people, you know, didn't realize they needed it until they had it. And I think it feels unique now it being a black and Blue space, Black + Blue Pacific space. But I can see that need kind of going outside of us. How do we take the conversations that we're having with each other, the learning and the unlearning, the unpacking of experiences, the unpacking of feelings and emotions and thoughts about what we've all been through to share that with the broader Pacific Island community in a way that can steer some people away from some of the negative, behaviors that we find that can be associated in speaking of people who identify as black or African American? But I can see that as not just for those who identify as black and Pacific Islander, but also for parents of children who are black and Pacific Islander, and for the youth. So like right now our Black + Blue group is geared towards the adult population of those who identify as black and PI. But then also thinking about like the younger generation, those who are in high school or in middle school or junior high school, who are also maybe going through the same things that we all went through at that point and needing a safe space to have those conversations and kind of process those things. Because they may have a parent who may not understand, you know, if they only have their Pacific Island parent, or they're primarily identifying with their black side because they don't feel comfortable with the Pacific Island side, whatever their journey is being able to provide that for them, but then also providing a space for parents to understand where their kids may be coming from, to hear from experiences and learn and potentially provide their kids with the resources to navigate very complex ideas. One's identity journey is not simple. It is not easy. It is not quick. And so it's hard. And that is not something, I mean, and I don't expect every parent, regardless of what their children's ethnic background is, to understand what that means like for their kids. But to be able to have a space where they can talk it out with other parents. But I also see that for our Latinx and PI community. I see that for our Asian and PI community, those who identify as both being Asian and Pacific Islander. For me, that just comes from a personal experience because my mom is one of nine. And I think out of the nine, three of the kids had children with other Samoan partners, and the rest had either a black partner, has a Mexican partner, has a partner who identifies as Chinese and Japanese, and has another partner who is white. But I have cousins who are in this space, and so we can all share in the fact that, although we may not all physically identify or people may not be able to physically recognize us as Samoans, that is what we all share in common. So having that for them as well. And then, you know, right now we're in COVID. So it's been a blessing and a curse to be in this pandemic, but I think the blessing part was that we were able to connect with so many people in our group who are from across the states and even across the waters. Once we're able to move past this pandemic and go back to congregating in person, being able to have groups within your respective cities to be able to go and talk in person, whether it's in Seattle, Los Angeles, New York, you know, folks out in Hawaii and like in Aotearoa. Who wants to continue engaging with other folks that they feel comfortable identifying or who they also identify with. Do I think that there is a need? Absolutely. And I can see it just across the board whether people know it or not, I think once we put it in front of them, that is where they'll see like, “Yeah, we need that.”   Courtney-Savali Andrews: [00:53:57] I just wanted to also highlight, you know, a point of significance for me with this group and hopefully one that would serve as a model for other organizations and groups that may develop after this, is modeled off of cultural studies, which is the process of actually remembering and relearning things that we've things and peoples that we've forgotten and with Black + Blue in the Pacific, it's really important to me to also include, and keep the Melanesian, the black Pacific voice in that conversation to model for other peoples of color to reach out to black peoples at home, or regionally to understand and again, remember those particular cultural networks that existed in pre colonial times and even sometimes well into colonial times, as current as you know, the 1970s black liberation movements to highlight Asian and Pacific and, and, and, and other peoples that were non black, but very instrumental in that fight for liberation as a whole, but starting with black liberation first. So, I think this is a really good time in an effort towards uprooting anti-blackness to highlight just how old our relationships with black peoples and black peoples in relationship with Asians and Pacific peoples, South Asians, Southeast Asians, it just goes on and on, to say that we've been in community positively before, so we can do it again.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:52] That is the most perfect way to wrap up the episode in reminding us to remember, and reminding us that all of our liberation is definitely tied to black liberation that they're inextricably linked together. Thank you, Courtney. Thank you, Jason. Fa'a fatai te le lava thank you for listening.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:56:13] Salamat thank you for listening.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:14] We want to thank our special guests, Jason and Courtney, one more time for rapping with us tonight. We appreciate you both for being here and really helping us continue to build the groundwork for Continental Shifts Podcast.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:56:24] Continental Shift Podcast can be found on Podbean, Apple, Spotify, Google, and Stitcher.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:30] Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube for archive footage and grab some merch on our website.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:56:36] Join our mailing list for updates at conshiftspodcast.com. That's C-O-N-S-H-I-F-T-S podcast dot com and follow us at con underscore shifts on all social media platforms.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:52] Dope educators wayfinding the past, present, and future.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:56:56] Keep rocking with us fam, we're gonna make continental shifts through dialogue, with love, all together.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:57:02] Fa'fetai, thanks again. Tōfā, deuces.   Gabriel A. Tanglao: [00:57:04] Peace, one love.   Swati Rayasam: [00:57:07] Please check out our website, kpfa.org backslash program backslash apex express. To find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Axpress is produced by Miko Lee, along with Paige Chung, Jalena Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Kiki Rivera, Nate Tan, Hien Ngyuen, Cheryl Truong, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a great night. The post APEX Express – 1.30.25 Continental Shifts: Anti Blackness in the PI Community appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. For this week's episode of APEX Express, we are joined by Yi Thoj and Belle Vang from Hmong Innovating Politics (HIP) and Pana Lee and Jennifer Xiong from California Hmong Advocates Network – Building Our Futures (CHAN-BOF) who will go into depth about these very tough but very real and needed conversations about abusive relationships, especially within the Hmong community, where 70% of Hmong Americans are under 24 years old.   Important Resources: Hmong Innovating Politics website California Hmong Advocates Network – Building Our Futures website Healthy vs. Unhealthy Relationships infographic How to Spot Abusive Relationships infographic Do you know someone in an abusive relationship? infographic Are you in an abusive relationship? infographic What does consent look like? infographic Transcript Cheryl: Good evening, everyone! You are tuned in to APEX Express. I'm your host, Cheryl and tonight is an What is AACRE?, you might ask. Well comprised of 11 grassroots, social justice groups, the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality (AACRE) network, leverages the power of its network to focus on long-term movement, building and support for Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Speaking of AACRE groups, APEX express is proud to be a part of the AACRE network.  For tonight's episode, we will be spotlighting the work of AACRE group Hmong Innovating Politics, also known as HIP. Belle Vang and Yi Thoj from HIP will be in conversation with Pana Lee and Jennifer Xiong from the California Hmong Advocates Network Building Our Futures, also known as CHAN-BOF.  They'll be in discussion on the importance of teen dating violence awareness, especially in the Hmong community as they are among the youngest of all ethnic groups in the United States with about 70% of Hmong Americans being under 24 years old.   I know somebody, you might want to learn more about HIP and CHAN-BOF so I'll let our speakers introduce themselves. And don't forget. All of their socials and websites will be linked in the show notes.    Belle: Hi, everyone, thank you so much for making time in your night to join us. We really appreciate it. Today we're going to be having a panel discussion in recognition of Teen Dating Violence Awareness Month. I really want to thank CHAN-BOF for collaborating with Hmong Innovating Politics. We're very excited to do this collab together. We're going to do a brief introduction. So, hi, everyone. My name is Bella Gaonoucci Vang. I'm with Hmong Innovating Politics as a Communication and Narrative Manager. If you're not one of our followers, make sure to follow us.  Hmong Innovating Politics is a grassroots organization focused on strengthening political power within Hmong communities through civic engagement. And with that being said, I'll go ahead and pull in one of our HIP members, Yi.  Yi Thoj: Hi everyone, my name is Yi and I use she, her pronouns, and I been a HIP young adult for around three to four years. I'm also working on the Bright Spots project.  Belle: And then if we can have Pana join the conversation.  Pana: Hi, everyone. I am Pana with CHAN-BOF champion stands for California Hmong Advocates Network Building Our Future. We were two grassroots organizations in community and outreach and this past year we have been able to provide mobile direct services to our Hmong survivors of domestic violence across the Central Valley– so from Sacramento to Fresno. Jennifer Xiong: All right. And that leaves me. Hi, everyone. My name is Jennifer Xiong. I use she/her pronouns and I work as a program specialist with CHAN-BOF and Banak, who actually serves as my supervisor. I'm really excited and happy to be here and really grateful for HIP for giving us a space time and platform to have this conversation  Belle: Thank you again CHAN-BOF for collaborating with us here at HIP. We really appreciate all the work y'all do in the community. I know y'all individually are really great folks. I'm really excited to dive into today's conversation. In your experience, I'm just asking everyone in the panel, where are some cultural norms or expectations within the Hmong community regarding relationships and dating, and that could be anything that you'd like to share from your own personal experiences. Pana: I think I can go. So I think growing up in the eighties, cultural expectations for women, Hmong women, We were expected to just cook, clean, and take care of our younger siblings and our parents. Right? So if you were dating, your relatives would just look down on us. Dating was frowned upon. I remember it was expected that if a guy is interested in you, they would have to come by your parent's house and your parents would have to approve. I remember guys come in and during our teenage years, my mom would have to be present. Right. My parents are really strict. Their limit was they could only stay two hours. And so my mom would ask fast questions. If they don't qualify, they don't meet expectations, they better be out ASAP. My parents are really, really strict.  So those were our expectations back in the 80s. We weren't really allowed to date during my younger days that's what we had to go through. Yi Thoj: I feel like a lot of the gender expectations of my generation is still very much by heteronormative and patriarchal norms and construct.  I'm the youngest of 7 girls, so all of my, 6 older sisters– they're fierce and they're also wonderful, powerful women who have helped me navigate through a lot of the contentions that I held before, interacting with romantic encounters and engagements. And so I think having that model definitely helped me navigate through my experiences as well. I feel like our parents are like, oh, if you want to engage in romantic encounters at a young age, that's welcome. But thankfully, they also didn't pressure us to do so. Jennifer Xiong: It's got me thinking about my own experiences, very little experiences, I might add. I think about some of the things my mom has said to me, which still stick around, it's kind of like embedded in my mind where she says Oh, ([Jennifer speaks in Hmong) meaning when your partner is visiting or at our home, you guys shouldn't be in your bedrooms. You should be out in the living rooms because that's really disrespectful. It, it invites negative perceptions about the person and about the relationship and it is a form of disrespect toward the, the parents and the home. I've also felt and seen from my older cousins or distant relatives who've gotten married– I think it's centered a lot around saving face. I remember hearing stories about my cousins. If they had gone out and they came home late, for example, and the parents were extremely displeased or unhappy, and they're like, no, you dishonored me and my daughter. You have to marry my daughter now because you took her home late, even if they didn't do anything salacious, so to speak. I'd hear those a lot. And, for me, those are always scary. Like, Oh my gosh, they would just do that! And you're a kid and you're growing up hearing these and actually, I think I heard it more commonly than I expected– people marrying young because of the whole consequence of arriving home late from a date or a hangout. So those are some of my experiences or what I've, I heard and witnessed. Yeah.  Belle: Thank y'all for sharing. I love hearing about your experiences. I It's really interesting how we all have different experiences, but it's still in the same realm of a very similar community, right? Very tight knit community. I echo both Jennifer and Yee's experience where my parents are a little bit more lax, but at the same time, it's like, make sure you marry someone who's a quality person. Right? I think that's really telling of how we see dating in the Hmong community. We don't date to date, right? We date to commit forever. And especially, I know all of us on this panel are women identifying and that can be a very dangerous tool, right? To just date to only marry– you're willing to put up with a lot, even if it's not really what you want for yourself, because the way the culture shapes us is if you are dating, you're only dating seriously. It's not to explore, not to be curious about yourself. And so I really appreciate the way that y'all frame it and the way that you share your experiences too. And I know we touched a little bit on this as well, but kind of gauging what it looks like to be in a healthy relationship. How would you say a healthy relationship is defined within the Hmong community? And what are qualities that you consider important? For a positive and respectful relationship within the community? Pana: So you all heard the word [Pana speaks in Hmong], right [Pana speaks in Hmong] right? [Pana speaks in Hmong] We We hear this over and over. I think even with my age, I've heard that. I'm pretty sure some of y'all have heard that to even my parents or friends or family, right? To me, what's considered positive in a relationship is really compromising and allowing you to have your own space, really meeting each other in the middle, trusting each other, having boundaries, appreciating each other, respecting, having that respect, right? Effective communication, being able to communicate with each other and having empathy. Also consent. Really having the permission of something to happen or agreement. Be able to agree with something and being committed to your relationship.  Jennifer Xiong: Yeah, I wanted to add, and also share that I think a lot of the times traditional expectations around what a healthy relationship looks like in the Hmong community generally entails being constricted and confined to your pre established roles that have been gone for generations. But I think that how we can further redefine that nowadays is to really think about how everything that Pana has already listed and shared. Right. I think it's important that those things like healthy boundaries and having balance within a relationship, I feel a lot of those things should be contextualized to the relationship. That's one, but also, I think it should be formed organically, which is difficult, and there will always be ongoing conversations about what a romantic commitment looks like, and what does that mean for the exact couple, but I think it's important to have an ongoing conversation about it, and then also it's important to understand these layers, that , If the couple is both Hmong, it's important to put that in context, and then it's also, what if it's a multiracial or multiethnic relationship? I think that's also very important. Understanding the values, and how these things can be formed organically as well. There are certain learned behaviors, beliefs, attitudes, that we pick up as we grow up and what the kind of relationships and dynamics we witnessed as we're growing up and then getting or getting involved in our own romantic relationships with people, and the things we witness and see can also really shape the way we go into relationships and the way we show up as partners.  I really don't know how to define it within the Hmong community, but I will say that I have seen when relationships and dynamics of dating are built on a foundation of patriarchy, it can, relating back to what Yi and Pana says, it can build really toxic and concerning, unhealthy relationship dynamics of power and control, and not knowing how to allow your partner to have autonomy to themselves, or knowing that it's two different people coming in together to a relationship. Power and control, when it gets mixed into this relationship, it can become really unhealthy and toxic. So I think it's also about unlearning those and realizing that certain attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs don't serve in creating a healthy relationship between a partnership or a romantic relationship. Within the Hmong community, a lot of us I've seen unlearning those behaviors and attitudes that we may have witnessed and maybe even internalized growing up. To answer the second part of the question what qualities are considered important for a positive respectful Relationship. I think it's really all that you you both named. Those are important like compromise and y'all named so many other great stuff, but then I was also just cranking up the things in my mind, but I just want to echo back what Yi and Pana said, and I'll leave it at that. Yi Thoj: What Jennifer just shared, about what we witnessed growing up sparked something in my mind as well about the media that we consumed growing up too. I watched a ton of Tyler Crohn's and Southeast Asian media growing up, and so much of the representations of love in there. It's so romanticized that abuse is okay. Non consensual engagements is okay. The media and real life relationships that are reflected and also modeled throughout our lives hold such a big factor into how we view love growing into a young adult and further. I know it definitely impacted me because I was always like, Oh, I think that's what love is, right? That's what it's showing on TV and things like that. Yeah, definitely holds weight.  Belle: Yeah, I love that you mentioned that Yi. I didn't really seriously start dating until I was in college and a lot of our generation grew up watching kdramas. Like, oh so romantic, super rich Boy is in love with super poor girl and he dictates her life and buys her everything like so romantic. And I tell my partner now that i'm married, if you ever do anything like in kdramas we are not messing around. That is not cool I don't want you to decide anything for me. I don't want you to pretend like you're in the hospital just as a prank You know boys over flowers. It's really interesting how love is framed growing up and how, just like you said, it's super romanticized. And like, you know how K dramas, you feel that excitement, like that, it's not necessarily love, right? That's just the thrill of being in something new, experiencing something different, but not necessarily love itself. And I really resonate with what you said earlier, Yi, about how it's really important to form those healthy boundaries and organically. And I really closely ties to Pana's comment about being able to create a consensual relationship and, Just like Jennifer said to like dismantling that patriarchy and foundation that we were built on.  We;re Belle: Learning those things are really hard to because initially I thought that drama was what love was supposed to be, but love is supposed to be safe and supposed to protect you, make you feel like you belong. Right? Because we like do grow up in a society that perpetuates love in honestly a violent way, I also just kind of want to know like y'all's thoughts on do you think there's enough awareness about dating violence within our communities, particularly the Hmong community? And how do you feel like it's generally perceived or even discussed amongst one another? Pana: I actually think there's not much awareness happening in the Hmong community. We really need to continue and bring more awareness. And it's awareness. Prevention. Intervention. We need to continue to do that. Some parents don't talk much to their youths about teen dating violence, what's healthy and what's not healthy, or actually like what to look for in a relationship.  In my household, I have only boys. And so we talk about safe sex, healthy boundaries, healthy relationship. What would they like to see in a relationship. I do this because, I've had experience working in the domestic violence field, sexual assault field for a long time. And plus, that's something that I never got from my parents. So my goal was, from now on, when I have my kids, these are stuff that I'm going to teach them. And so I kept my goals, you know, that was something that I told myself that I promised myself that I would do this, to continue to teach my kids healthy boundary, healthy relationship and dating violence., Most parents were taught when they were young you're going to get married and just have a good life, have a good family.  Yi Thoj: All points that are so valid and so true. There are generational gaps, between the elders and ourselves and myself. My parents are around mid 60s. As much as I think I try to bridge that gap sometimes, I think youth just don't have the language as well to fully explain to them.  There's even the conversation about like mental health and how romantic relationships are embedded in mental health and even that in itself is a difficult conversation to start. More tangible resources to learn more about communication in terms of learning the Hmong language and whatnot would definitely help with outreach and building awareness in the community. But I think a lot of recent events as well have also shown to me about where The reflection of culture and the communities as well Which I would also like to provide some sort of affirmation for any youth who's watching this that these contentions and frictions within the community– it's never a reflection of you. You know, it's always a reflection of the larger culture and what is happening. And something that we all need to advocate for and invest into to change.  Jennifer Xiong: yeah. I agree that Bottom line, there isn't enough awareness about dating violence within the Hmong community on many different fronts, like Pana mentioned, the prevention piece and the intervention piece. How does someone recognize or learn to recognize signs of I might be in a toxic, unhealthy relationship that is or can eventually lead into something that's violent? Or maybe I am in a current relationship where there is violence, but I don't know how to pick up on the signs and actually realize that, hey, I'm not in a safe place in this relationship, or in a safe relationship.  And then if your loved ones or family members or friends are recognizing it from an outside perspective, like, we lack a lot of resources and information out there for our community to engage with to learn how to intervene or also recognize it among our loved ones and the people we care about if they may be in those types of dynamics and relationships. And then when we do recognize it, how do we step in and help? What do we do? How can we help? And yeah, so bottom line, there isn't enough resources out there. I think it's still really on the, I guess the loose term, up and up. I really have a lot of faith and hope and I've seen, the work continue to expand and grow and obviously CHAN-BOF is a part of that, along with so many other organizations, statewide organizations that are trying to build more resources and information and push it out there into our communities, so that they know this information, they have access to it and can tap into it with our youth and young adults , and maybe even with our older folks or generations, cause I know you mentioned brought up a really great point too,in that , there's different gaps or different ways of understanding how to talk about dating violence within the Hmong community. Pana: Yeah, I remember my parents would tell me, [Pana speaks in Hmong] [Pana speaks in Hmong] [Pana speaks in Hmong] and I'm like I never understood that. And so growing up, getting older, I kind of understood it. And again, they said the same thing. We were talking, me and my kids were sitting in the table and we're talking about healthy relationship and stuff. What do you look for? How would the relationship look like? What's healthy? And then again, my dad says, yeah [Pana speaks in Hmong]  And my son was like, I don't understand that mom. It was just very generalized, and I had to like recorrect that. This is what he means. My definition of what my dad said was Look for a healthy relationship. Get to know the person Date them Belle: I love that example Pana because growing up everyone always told me that, and I took it at face value. You know when we speak in moments like poetry, right? but growing up I took that at face value saying like when you grow up make sure you marry someone who has Power, who has good reputation in the community, and then As I got older, my mom's like, that's never what I was telling you. Jennifer Xiong: I was just telling you, marry someone who makes you happy. And I was like, Oh, how come you didn't just say it that way? Then like you put it in a way that I was like, Oh man, I have to make sure I marry someone who's brings honor to my family, right? Like what a Mulan way of thinking. But I feel like that's always how I really perceive dating. And tying how Hmong is very much like poetry in our communities, I really like what Yi's comment earlier about how there's not really a lot of terminology in our community for even awareness about the mental health in our community. It's very much how medical terms have only really come to fruition in our community within the past like 50 years. We don't have anything regarding terms that we can use for mental health or dating violence, like the only thing we can use is sick, like that's pretty much how you say when you talk about mental health.   You just say basically, you have a sickness in your head, but there's not actual terms. When we talk about diabetes, like, [Jennifer speaks in Hmong] which literally translates to sweet blood or blood. Well, that is sweet. I hope to see, the next, I don't want to wait 50 years. I hope in the next 20 years there is verbiage that can help the community decipher and break down and bring more awareness to the violence that's being perpetrated in our communities as well. Belle: I love this conversation. I really love that. You showed examples of your son, and it really feels like how intergenerationally we think. We all think so differently, even though we have good intentions it doesn't get translated across the board. I kind of want to elaborate a little bit more when we talked about how it's really important to have consent when it comes to dating, how you really teach your sons that. Would you mind elaborating a little bit more about what consent looks like when it comes to dating, your perspective and how you see it within our communities as well. Pana: Have y'all seen the little video about drinking tea ? Sometimes you can drink the tea and you're like, I don't want to drink it no more. You know, and so you can change at any moment, right? And being able to understand okay, I This person might not want to, so I need to be able to give that respect and step away, right? And so, getting them to understand that. So if you all watched that video, the tea consent video. It's really cute, and It's really good for the youth, even for the kids. They understand it real quick. In a relationship, you should be able to give them that space and say, Okay, I get it. I'm gonna be able to understand if someone says no, then no means no. And then their body gestures are like they're pushing back, that means no. If my face is looking like, i'm shaking my head or you can see in my eyes like I don't like you stay away Right? And so being able to understand that Jennifer Xiong: I think one thing I want to add to that which is great. Like the tea consent video is super amazing at just Easily explaining under the understanding of consent, but also when someone can't consent like when they can't answer yes or no. For example, they're at a party and they've passed out drunk. They're just not conscious and awake and they can't answer yes or no, decline or accept. That also is not an invitation or permission. That is not a consent, basically. So I'm going back and forth. When a person can't answer, it's definitively no, because they're not consciously aware and awake enough to give that response. So I think that is also something I wanted to add. Yi Thoj: Yeah, I don't have much to add to this question. I've never seen the tea consent video, but putting that into perspective, that is such a great analogy and wonderful example and easy way to explain things can change right in the middle of an interaction.  Also just wanting to provide admiration to Pana as well to opening up the conversations with your sons because I think that's so important. A lot of the times younger Men or Hmong youth who are male identified. A lot of the times their influences are from other male figures in their lives who may not be the best role model. And so I'm totally leaning in towards the Hmong woman leaders in people's lives, especially Hmong youth, and just really loving that. Belle: I love that affirmation. we are right now a room of powerful women in our community itself. So I really, I want to like, double up on that echo Yi's statement as well.  Cheryl: You are currently tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA and 88.1 on KFCF. You have so far been listening to Belle Vang and Yi Thoj from Hmong Innovating Politics, also known as HIP, and Pana Lee and Jennifer Xiong from California Hmong Advocates Network Building Our Future (CHAN-BOF). We are going to take a quick music break, but don't go anywhere. More on breaking the silence about teen dating violence awareness in the Hmong community after our break.  Welcome back. You were tuned into apex express on 94.1, KPFA 88.1. KFCF in Fresno. And online at KPFA. Dot org. You were just listening to your track off of the Anakbayan LB May Day mix tape called “Letter to Mom” by shining sons. Anakbayan LB is a Filipino youth and student organization based in long beach, California, working to arouse, organize and mobilize the community to address issues that impact Filipinos in the U S and in the Philippines.  Now, back to the show. We are here, with belle Vang and Yi Thoj from Hmong Innovating Politics (HIP) and Pana Lee and Jennifer Xiong. From California Hmong Advocates Network Building Our Futures (CHAN-BOF). We're talking about teen dating violence awareness and its impacts and implications in the Hmong community.  Belle: Jennifer, you talk about patriarchy and shared about how, you really tried to shape your son because you also work in this field you are definitely more eloquent work in addressing these issues. I want to dive more into what that looks like within our community and in our culture. Do you feel like there are specific cultural or community barriers that may prevent individuals, particularly Hmong individuals, from seeking help or disclosing incidents of dating violence? And what does that look like? Especially since I know CHAN-BOF does a lot of that direct work with clients. Pana: I think because we're so closely knitted, that's a barrier too, being afraid of, okay, this person might know me. One example is while growing up, I was taught men were more valuable than women. I think in our family, my parents really wanted a son and they kept on trying and trying until after they got 7 daughters, they finally got their son, right? And so we were told, you have to be patient because boys, [Jennifer speaks Hmong] and as a teenager, I was like, I guess I held no value. And so, and also keeping in mind for a long time, a lot of our culturally specific organizations were mainly ran by Hmong men. Hmong men are the main person who makes the decisions Jennifer Xiong: Some of those barriers are they don't seek help or support. The other barrier that I experienced in high school is I had a friend who was dating someone who was really abusive and verbally abusive, physically abusive. He sexually assaulted her. When she came to me. I was like, Oh, no, you need to go to your parents. The minute she told her parents, she was forced to marry him to save face. And so, after watching what had happened to my friend made me feel like if that happened to me and I went and told my parents. But these are back in my days, though, right? I would be forced to get married, like, and that time I didn't know that that was not okay. If someone raped you and forced you, that is not okay, but I wasn't aware of that. She wasn't aware of that. And so, again, we said, you know, back, awareness needs to happen. Awareness and education. That was something I remember for a long time and I felt guilty and I, I felt bad because I didn't know who to send to go for help. I referred it back to her parents and said, yeah, your parents would help you go for it and go for it. And that's, that's what happened. That's one of the other barriers. Some of our parents are not very educated in this topic, and it's a topic that we don't talk about. I do want to add, there's still strong sentiments of, victim blaming, shaming, disempowering. I've heard statements, or I will say, I was doing my research paper on DV in the Hmong community. My sources were like YouTube videos. And so, I found these videos of these women speaking out about their experiences of DV. In this particular example, she's married she was pregnant and her husband was abusing her. So much so that he was dragging her down the stairs of their apartment building. And so she mentioned her stomach was basically getting shaped. She was somehow able to escape his grasp and run to a neighbor and ask them to call law enforcement. And so law enforcement came and took away the husband because they visibly could see what, what had gone on. Her mother in law had said to her, Oh. [Jennifer speaks Hmong], meaning, oh, daughter in law, why did you call law enforcement and have them take away my son? It dawned on me how we perceived some of these dynamics and abuses when it happens in relationships. And again, the whole, why did you do that instead of are you okay? What happened to you? Why did they do that to you? Or really focusing on the wellness and safety of the person being in a violent relationship, violent abusive relationship. And to add to that, the terminology and the way we frame some of the resources out there, I remember a lot of the [Jennifer speaks in Hmong] the elders, would call DV shelters [Jennifer speaks in Hmong] right. The term, the explanation of it is like the place for runaway women or wives or mothers. But in fact, these shelters meant to house and keep individuals, women, children, who were experiencing abuse and violence in their relationship safe. But then we use negative connotations and terminology to label them because it brings a lot of shame and hesitation to seek out help. The fact that the resources that are available mainstream wise for those who are seeking help and resources because they may be in an abusive violent relationship is that there's also a lack of culturally responsive resources and services to aid and assist our specific community members when they're out trying to get the help that they need. I've witnessed and heard that a lot from the clients that I directly support and assist. Like, oh, we've gone here and then they mentioned not having a great experience, or being misunderstood, or I'm not feeling even safe or comfortable enough to talk about their experiences and get the resources and help that they need because some of the agencies really lacked the cultural understanding awareness or the intersection of that when it comes to dating violence or domestic violence in our own community. Yi Thoj: Yeah, all of this is like really great examples. Also, unfortunate. I think that from my own experience with dealing with victims around me who have undergone a lot of these violences, what I've seen is that a lot of it is them recognizing that the harm that is being done to them is wrong. Very much so. But they've also internalized and conditioned themselves to accept it as something that is normal and okay, even if a lot of the times there's this back and forth resistance of wanting to debate themselves from the situation, but then at the same time, them like always going back and this is the cycle of abuse, right, and how it works. But one note that I would also like to make is that what I've also seen is that it's really, really important that male perpetrators, especially Hmong men, it's important that there are other Hmong men who are holding them accountable, is what I found to be true. Because as much as Hmong women who are victims and other Hmong women bystanders who are wanting to advocate for these victims try to stand up for them, These perpetrators and also the culture inherently does not change if people who are in power and have that privilege don't actively help dismantle it, too. So, I think that it's important to note. There's so much power that goes into having woman led spaces and woman voices because that's so important, but I also think there should be so much more work done from the cisgendered male counterparts in our lives and in the community Belle: Thank y'all for that. Your sentiment is so powerful, yi and it's Very valid. A lot of times the folks that were leading this work are often the women in our communities Like that's just straight up facts, right? I attended a Boys and men of color conference, and one of the panels said the one time that men have these spaces together is also when women created. Right? As women, we build a lot of community for our community and at the same time, don't get the recognition of the work that is being done. So, it's really important that those who do have power, make sure that they implement it correctly and support communities that minorities within their communities that need that extra support.  The examples provided to I felt were very powerful, but also very traumatizing. When I was listening to your story, when you were talking about how you advise your friend to go to their family and they were forced into marriage. I know that we are different generations, but I feel like I definitely have met folks who are my age who were still forced to the situation. Those culture practices are so very normal and not unheard of. Like it's not completely cultural shift within one generation. And I'm sure When you witnessed that, that it was very traumatizing for you too, even though you were not the one immediately affected by it, but it also shifted the way you saw community, the way you viewed culture itself. And you even expressed you felt a lot of guilt and responsibility for that. It's really interesting that when there are those traumatizing, abusive relationships happening to those folks, and even at the third per person party that you feel that trauma in other ways as well. You mentioned how the patriarchy does affect our communities in that way. What is being done? What is being said to help heal our communities and work past these issues that are obviously very much rooted in our communities. I know we talked a little bit about the way cultural identity influences our communities. I know we specifically talked about the Hmong community too as well. I know we only have about 10 minutes left and so I kind of just want to dive into, not necessarily solutions, but what are things that we can take, what are steps that we can take to make progressive action and change in our community? So in your opinion, what role can the Hmong community play in addressing and preventing this deep imbalance? And Are there any community led solutions that you feel could be effective within our community? Yi Thoj: Yeah, I think as we've mentioned throughout the conversation, it's important to emphasize and highlight prevention work that can be done. And that is teaching the young boys and men and ongoing older Hmong men in our lives to. Because that is community, right? Folks who are directly within our circles, as well as people who we interact with. I think it's important to teach them very simple things that should already be fundamental, but unfortunately are not. Such as informed consent, and then also just normal consent. I think to echo back on what I just shared as well, having more male mentors who are very much progressive and radical in their work, and also centered in the actual tangible dismantling of the culture and harmful aspects of the system, I think is, A really big part of it. The reason why I think I'm bringing this up is because my experience with younger men who still hold a lot of these traditionalist and violent behaviors and mentalities receive a lot of their mentorship from other male mentors in their lives, and also just media consumption such as Andrew Tate and whatnot. A lot of folks in my own young adult experience very much religiously follow Andrew Tate and I had believed that we were at a point in our progressive history to where we have gone past that, but it's still very rampant in the community and it's affecting The youth, and it's affecting how they interact with and also date other Hmong women as well, assuming that this is a binary relationship.   Pana: It's time to talk about it, supporting each other, talking about what health relationship really is. And It doesn't have to just come from the school. For a long time, a lot of our parents, we depend on the school. Oh, they'll figure that out, right? it needs to come from everyone, every one of us. Even as a friend, as an individual, we all need to support in that piece like supportive organizations such as CHAN-BOF and HIP, right? Continuously talking about this, bringing the awareness. If you're feeling uncomfortable, if we're really uncomfortable talking about a certain topic, we do need to talk about that and really addressing that. Getting to understand what's healthy and what's not healthy. What are the signs of an abusive relationship? I think if we really want change, change needs to happen especially as parents and it comes from the youth too. We want a better future for our youth so I think really continue to really address this and doing a lot of prevention work because we tend to deal with a crisis and we're forgetting about the prevention part. How do we prevent this stuff. One great example that I always use is we're constantly supporting and trying to jump in and support people who are drowning, but we keep forgetting about, what's happening on the other side of that river. Something's happening and it's the prevention education piece that we need to start doing and continue to do. Cheryl: We're going to take a quick music break, but don't go anywhere. Next up,. You're going to be listening to “cultural worker” by power struggle. More on the ways we can work towards. Teen dating violence awareness in the Hmong Comunity when we return.    Cheryl: And we're back!. You are tuned in to KPFA on 94.1, KPFA 88.1 KFCF F in Fresno and online at kpfa.org. You were just listening to “cultural worker” by power struggle, a Filipino beat rock music artist based in the bay. We're currently here with Belle and Yi from Hmong innovating politics, hip. And Jennifer and Pana from California Hmong advocates network, building our futures, cHAN-BOF as we discuss the ways we can address teen dating violence in the Hmong community.    Jennifer Xiong: I'm gonna echo, I mean, both of you brought up the same points, but in really distinctive examples of your own, and I really appreciate that. It is about really bolstering, our community up to be proactive and engaged and informed about this, and really equipping and building them up to be a part of this, that it's not oh, you know, I think it's great that obviously we do this work as current active advocates who've had previous quote, unquote, professional experience dealing with , crisis like this, or dealing with and supporting directly individuals who have gone or are going through this and that, like, everyone is more than capable of being equipped with the knowledge and being enforced with the knowledge and the ability To learn and understand this and be proactive about it in our community. It does lead a lot back to the whole prevention and intervention work and building up our youth and young adults. Cause you know, okay. So a side note is, so we did a lot of outreach and engagement work this past year, really putting it out in front of our community, in the Hmong community. And let me tell you, I was scared to do this because I was like, oh my gosh, people are going to be bringing their pitchforks and torches and, and they're going to come around and be like, who's this girl going on TV, talking about DV and providing resources and services for our community. Interestingly enough, I got like so much of the opposite reaction and responses. And I think to me, that's really heartwarming. And it gives me a lot of hope because I got so much positive affirmation and reinforcement and feedback from even our older generations in our community and young folks too, saying this is so needed. This is critical, important. I'm so glad you're out here. Or how can we get involved? Even being like, , I'm so happy that you guys are doing this work. And we really have a lot of faith because so much of our younger folks, younger generations are stepping up to do this sort of work. So I think it's really the community, a large portion of the community, from what I've experienced, really recognize how important and needed this work is to implement this and incorporate this into our community so they know and understand like, Hey, violence is not okay. Dating violence is not okay. Domestic violence is not okay. But what can we do? , what do we do about it? And I think we're at that place where people are really curious and desiring to really step up and do something about it. And again, I think what Pana and Yi mentioned.  Belle: Thank you. I love those ideas on how the Hmong community can take action to change the violence that happens in our communities, right? I love dismantling the patriarchy and empowering our youth. I think that also really comes with, I know we didn't really touch on this, but, the 18 class system. How there really needs to be more, you mentioned, women leadership. We have a lot of women leadership in our communities, but not within our 18 class system. And why is that right? And how do we convince them that we need women in those leadership roles within our communities to represent our communities. That also ties into the same thing with Jennifer, how we really want to empower youth. We should also have youth leadership because then the folks who are in those important seats are 60 plus and so disconnected with the reality that we're living in today. So, you know, I just really appreciate everything y'all brought to the table today. I know we only have a few minutes left. , I know we talked a lot about youth empowerment, how there's a lot of women leadership. Since we're focusing on teen dating violence today, what is a tip or advice that you would have liked to receive as a teenager, now being a little bit more experienced with your relationships. And if you could say it really quick. Any of the teenagers listening out here, perk your ears up– there's a lot of great advice in here, so make sure that you absorb it like a sponge. And I'll just go ahead and leave it at that.  Pana: I think with me– it's okay to not be okay, right? It's okay to not be okay, and it's really okay to talk to someone. And really reach out for help and, you know, really understand that it's okay to say no, and we are all equal. Jennifer Xiong: For me, Oh gosh, this is hard. First things first is like, I think my teen self would have loved to know dating during your teen years. It's not a big deal. Like, it's okay. Don't feel like you're missing out or that there's something wrong with you if you aren't in a relationship while you're in your teen years. Really spend that time cherishing and valuing the time you have with yourself and getting to know yourself first, so that when you do get into a relationship, you know what you want, you know, the values that you want in a relationship, the values you want to bring into a relationship, you know yourself. And also don't forget that you are you're worthy. You matter, you're important. And that, anyone who disrespects you or does not value your work in a relationship more than likely aren't worth your time and aren't worth your tears. And so I think that's what I would have wanted to know.  Yi Thoj: for mine, it's very specific. How I came to be with my current partner. It was through an intersection of events with a lot of things that we've already discussed today as well. And so I think what I would have wanted to know is that It's very difficult to try to empower and change the hearts and minds of people on the ground level. Even if you're going in head strong. please treat yourself with grace in all of that. And then lean in on your partner to help you navigate that. It's so important. I think a lot of Hmong women and Hmong girls are taught to be hyper individualistic and independent, and it's needing to teach that sometimes you can lean into your femininity. Sometimes you can lean in on support from other people. And also from your partner, it's really important. C: Thank you. I love all the self love in the room and just really great advice on being gentle with yourself and recognize that you are deserving of all the good things in life. I hope that everyone really takes that to heart and it's just friendly reminder to continue loving yourself in the process of loving others. Love is abundant. It's not scarcity mindset. We are here to share our love and that love should be shared with ourselves as well. We're going to wrap today up and I just want to say thank you so much to Yi, Pana, Jennifer for joining us and thank you so much CHAN-BOF for collaborating with HIP for dating violence awareness month. We really appreciate all your effort and all the work you do in our communities as well. If you haven't already in the audience, please make sure to follow and like HIP and CHAN-BOF so you can continue following the work that we do and support our endeavors as community members, because you are part of the change in our communities as well. Well, all so much and have a good rest of your night. Thanks everyone.  Cheryl: And that's the end of our show. Learn more about the incredible work being done by Hmong innovating politics and CHAN-BOF by checking out our show notes.   Also HIP and CHAN-BOF ask work together to create these really helpful infographics on themes of teen dating violence awareness, such as what is consent? How do you know you're in an abusive relationship. How can you help someone who's in it? I found them to be really helpful. So I will also make sure to link those in the show notes as well.  Cheryl Truong: Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – 01.23.25 – Hmong Teen Dating Violence Awareness appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Powerleegirls Hosts Miko Lee and Jalena Keane-Lee host and Ayame Keane-Lee edits a chat about leadership, growth and change during a time of crisis. Listen to Jalena speak with Meng Hua from Tiger Eye Astrology about her path from palm reading to artistry to bazi. Then hear Miko speak with Zen Master Norma Wong  about her new book When No Thing Works. More information about our guests: Meng Hua's Tiger Eye Astrology  Zen Master Norma Wong her new book When No Thing Works Guide to how to hold space about the book   Pathways To Humanity Show Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:29] Tonight on APEX Express: the PowerLeeGirls mother-daughters team. I'm the editor of tonight's show Ayame Keane-Lee joined by our hosts Jalena Keane-Lee and Miko Lee. Tune in as they interview our guests about Pathways – internal and external journeys we take to connect to humanity. First my sister Jalena speaks with Meng Yu about her journey as a full time artist and practitioner of the mantic arts. Then Mama Miko speaks with Norma Wong, the abbot of Anko-in about her latest book When No Thing Works. So listen in to APEX Express. First up is Jalena's interview with Meng Yu.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:01:08] Hello, everyone. I am here with Meng Yu, who is a Chinese astrologer from Tiger Eye Astrology. And today we're talking all about astrology and learning from the stars and other elements to help guide our life path and our decisions and choices. Thanks so much for being here, Meng.    Meng Yu: [00:01:27] Thanks so much for having me, Jalena. It's a pleasure to have this conversation with you.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:01:33] It truly is. and so I'm curious if you could just start us off talking a little bit, you know, about your practice and how you came to the work that you're doing today.    Meng Yu: [00:01:42] I have been a practitioner of the mantic arts for, over a decade and the mantic arts, include astrology, but also divination. So as part of my practice, I also do I Ching or Yijing divination. and it's a kind of circuitous way of how I ended up on this path. I'm also a, a full time artist. and you know, that's kind of how I make my bread and butter. And it's also. In a way, how I approach, Chinese astrology and divination as well, I guess to backtrack a little bit, I always like to start by honoring my teachers and their lineages. So, primarily my teacher has been Master Zongxian Wu, who is my Bazi teacher and also is the lineage holder of, four traditional schools of internal arts. and then I also have a host of daoist teachers who are also artists. their own right, visual artists, martial artists, writers who live in and embody the Dao. these include Lindsey Wei, Dengming Dao, uh, Tamara Jha, Lily Kai. And so, I also want to shout out to my group. Late sixth great aunt as well. My Leo Gupo, who when I was eight years old, she gave me my first introduction to the art of divination through. palm reading. so she actually taught me, sort of an Eastern style of palm reading at a young age. But growing up, other than that, I, was not influenced by, this, form of, wisdom traditions from my heritage. My parents are, both Chinese and they are both, of the cultural revolution generation, which was a mass genocide that occurred in China, right as they were coming of age. So they're very, survival oriented, practical people, you know, from Just historically in China, from the fall of the Qing dynasty to the rise of communism, much of the mantic arts traditions, were basically lost in the cultural landscape. So, how I came to this work, was not really so much through my upbringing as, The search for, I guess, healing in my own life experiences and coming to, sort of critical junctures, and crisis, personal crises in my life where I really sought, alternative, dimensions and ways of, reconnecting to my My purpose and just healing in my life. So I, over a decade ago found myself, in the jungles of Peru, having very close, connections to a shamanistic tradition involving plant medicine, which opened me up to really asking, you know, what are the shamanic and animistic roots. of the wisdom traditions from my own heritage. And this brought me to working with the Yijing, as well as Chinese astrology. So that's, that's kind of a mouthful. It's a bit of a long and complicated story, but that's, that's sort of the bullet notes version.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:05:18] Thank you so much for sharing that. It's perfect because my next question was going to be about, you know, your lineage of healers that you studied under, but I feel like you covered that already really well. So I'm curious, you know, you talked about Bazi and Yijing, could you kind of give us a little bit of a breakdown of these like different modalities and how you use them?    Meng Yu: [00:05:35] Sure, absolutely. so, In the readings that I do for folks, the most popular readings are actually a combination of Yijing divination and Bazi astrology. So to give a little context for both, the Yijing Translates as the book of change or the book of changes it, although it has roots and what we would call, currently ancient Siberia, ancient China, it actually dates back to Neolithic times. Really before, the formation of these nation states. So it's some of our early human ancestors. It's their recorded search for wisdom through the observation of cycles and patterns in nature over thousands of years. as the book of change, as the study of change, it's the oldest compounded record of, the study of time itself. and the Bazi astrology is a modality of Chinese astrology that really came into prominence during the Han Dynasty. the turn of the century, the common era, and, it translates as eight characters. So ba meaning eight and zi meaning character. So there is a element in animal for not only your year of birth, which is what? Folks are mostly familiar with, but also the month, day, and hour. So these are called four pillars. So sometimes the system is called the four pillars of destiny. And we get a look at, these characters that make up one's nature. And the way that I So when I see the two modalities working together, I often give people the metaphor of, you know, say you're in, the ocean of your life and you're driving a boat or a ship. The Yijing is like a weather report. The Yijing gives us an idea of the changes that we are currently in. So are we headed in a storm? is it clear blue skies ahead? What are the conditions of the wind and the waves? And the bazi chart looks at the kind of ship that you are driving. So it could be, you know, a submarine. It could be a sailboat. It could be an ocean tanker. And they all have different conditions. strengths and gifts and flavors of power, as well as certain kinds of limitations and vulnerabilities. And so the bazi chart really looks at these qualities of our nature and encourages us to embrace who we actually are so that we can learn to drive our ship better.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:08:47] Thank you so much for that breakdown and description, and in addition to offering readings, of which I loved, I absolutely loved getting a reading with you, and it was so informative and inspirational, but in addition to these readings and offerings that you have for other people, I'm curious how you use these modalities in your own life, whether it's with your art practice, or just with life choices and changes how do you, use these ways of knowing for yourself?   Meng Yu: [00:09:12] It's very important for me as an astrologer and as a daoist to, to align my life according to the times, these modalities, both the Yijing and Chinese astrology. What they point to at the foundation of their wisdom is the question of what time is it, right? This is where the roots of the tradition come from. It's from telling time, and through understanding time and studying time, we're able to divine When is a good time? what is the right time? And knowing that gives our lives profound meaning and context. so, on the more kind of mundane level, it's adjusting my calendar to observe time with this additional context of living with the seasons. there's actually 24 different seasons, according to the qi nodes of The Chinese lunar and solar calendar. There's also the lunar cycles as well. And these are not simple, mathematical markings. They have, very deep meanings behind them that help us align with the qi quality of the moment. So they give our lives meaning by showing us, is this a time to sow seeds, to be inspired and enlivened like springtime? is it a time of Growing potential, or are we entering a time where we need to, not be accumulating, in terms of harvest, but actually be engaged in shedding, by observing the patterns and cycles of nature, And following the nature of the forces that we find ourselves in, we can align ourselves to live in harmony, and to be in, better alignment with the dao. So that's one way that I see the Chinese calendar providing context for my life. The wisdom of the Yijing has been such a profound. Collaborator in my life. not only in studying and attempting to apply its wisdom, but also has been an incredible creative collaborator for me as an artist. So, one of my favorite things to do is to divine with the Yijing to help make creative choices in my work, and to really treat the Oracle as a collaborator. So I really enjoyed using it in this creative way and as a practice for listening and channeling, which I think is useful for any artist to engage in a meditative practice where, it's not a sense of creativity coming necessarily from you, but actually through you. and that's something that the Yijing through working with it for so many years has really taught me to embody.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:12:19] I love that so much. have you noticed any changes in your life, your energy levels, or your art practice since kind of aligning your life with these forces?    Meng Yu: [00:12:30] Yeah, you know, I would love to say, Oh, everything's just gotten better and better. Now I just live like the perfect artist life. It's that would, that's really not, nothing could be really further from the truth because I think it's really about being in the school of life. You know that this is a form of education and it's a continual form of practice, and, as I've been engaged in it, in over 10 years, every year, the lessons have, there's been more layers of depth and challenge, which I think is, , Something that unfolds sort of dependent on what you're you're ready for. There is a hexagram in the Yijing that Shows you that you are undergoing a massive transition where you're carrying the burden of a really heavy weight . And one of the things you're encouraged to see is to reflect on how, what you are experiencing now is something that would have completely overwhelmed you a year ago or a cycle ago. We are given tasks. And, asked to carry burdens, given what we are ready for. And so, although I would like to say, Oh, it's made my life so easy. I know what to do all the time now. That's not the narrative at all. I feel like there's a kind of profound, I guess maybe meditative experience where I have a little bit more distance now from things affecting me, in an immediate personal way because now I can, refer to. This collaborator, this friend, for advice or allowing me to see where I am in a cycle to reflect what I have exited from, hopefully to be prescient of what's to come, to identify familiar themes and to see, that I'm continuously revolving around, a spiral where Certain points come back that feel very familiar, but it's a couple rungs, deeper, where it's not like just a circle of things repeating, but it's a spiral where there's new layers of depth that, follow familiar themes, if that makes sense.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:15:06] Yeah, that does. and I know you've talked about, too, how it's like a method for communicating with your ancestors and kind of having An additional channel of communication. So I'm just curious about, yeah, that kind of practice of communication and bringing that forward in your work and how that experience has been for you.   Meng Yu: [00:15:28] Yeah. the piece about ancestors is really an interesting one, because I think what the gift of Chinese astrology to me is that it puts The self within a kind of different context where we're encouraged to see ourselves, not as some, definable thing that has innate qualities, but through Chinese astrology, where we see the elements, the animals, the the stars that indicate ancestral influences, the, unfinished business, the karma, the fate of our ancestors that have been given to us. We're encouraged to see the self as just a live kind of wiggly end of 10, 000 dead people. You know, that what makes us who we are is an enormous inheritance. And what we are here to play out in our lives is this dance between fate and freedom. It doesn't mean that we don't have access to creativity in our lives, but that freedom is inherently, explored and discovered through playing with the limitations of our fate. So for instance, in our natal charts, You can see certain hauntings or ghost energies, inherited from ancestors. So for instance, in my personal chart, I have an inheritance called hidden moaning, which shows an ancestor that has not completed grieving and grief work in their lifetime. And so it kind of. imbues my life with unexplainable bouts of sadness. sometimes this can result in, depression, grieving, this like, wailing grief and knowing this in my chart, I'm able to see that kind of sadness is not something that is just mine, meaning, you know, growing up, the question would be like, Oh, why me, or what am I doing wrong? Why do I feel like this? What's wrong with me? When we look at our lives through the context of ancestors, it becomes a lot more relational, meaning your grief, these burdens are not simply yours. They're a call for communication with your lineage and opening up that pathway, that communication itself is how we resolve the fate of our ancestors. by Listening by asking, what is it that they want, our lives are not just lived for us, but our lives are a way for our ancestors to resolve unfinished chi, that they were not able to complete in their lifetimes. So, you know, when I feel these bouts of sadness, I know that it's time for me to open up these channels, that I can sit in meditation, that I can, engage in my creative practice as a way to channel and speak to my ancestors and ask them what it is that they would like to come forth. What messages they have? That they need to share and speak.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:11] Wow, you just dropped so many gems and I was like taking notes. I really like that idea of, you know, this dance between fate and freedom and living out our ancestors kind of unfinished business and promises and hopes. And I'm curious also how this practice has impacted or potentially deepened your own understanding of your culture and your relationship to being Chinese or Chinese American or however you identify.   Meng Yu: [00:19:40] Yeah, it's really provided. I feel extremely honored and, you know that I've been able to work with so many amazing teachers and adepts and have been trusted to practice as well as teach these modalities. it has brought me really close to my ancestors in a very intimate way, you know, like I just talked about with hidden moaning, as well as giving me such an appreciation for the wisdom traditions of my heritage. and this really dates back really beyond, again, our understanding of the nation states of, you know, what it means to be Chinese, it actually gives me a lot of respect for what our ancient human ancestors have left behind for us, their legacy, you know, because the roots of this tradition Like I mentioned, it actually goes back 50, 70, 000 years ago to the retreat of the last ice age. And so we're really talking about nomadic hunter gatherers and their survival, how they observed nature, terrains, and sky. Over cyclical time, they survived by following migration routes of animals and celestial bodies that allowed them to engage in an animistic perspective of life, that, all landscapes, including the landscapes of the cosmos, all of nature is sentient. And this. I guess that world view of aliveness of sentience and intelligence, as well as reciprocity and resonance. You know, that all environments and us, because we are innately tied to that, we are nature. You know, that we're in this reciprocal conversation all the time with life, that I think has had the most profound influence on my life, this idea that we're not just caretakers of the environment, but we are the environment. We are all adapting to each other too. The forces around us inside of us that there's this continual movement of cycles and circulation. that I think is really this wisdom core of the tradition that has really made me feel like not just a citizen of my culture and my ethnicity, but really a citizen of this planet, of Earth. from literally, you know, the air that we breathe, down to the food that we eat down to our blood, it's the same movement of circulation that connects us all and this, you know, really informs my, my worldview and my sense of belonging, my sense of, communion with life.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:22:54] I feel like these messages and this kind of information about ancestors, unfinished business, purpose in life. It can be both empowering and overwhelming at times. Like, that was my experience of the reading as well. And we're living at a time where In the US for sure and also globally where there's so much going on and it is a moment that can feel empowering at times but also can feel very, very overwhelming so I'm curious if there are certain ways that you practice keeping the faith in amidst times like these or navigating things that are overwhelming but can be seen as, empowering at the same time.    Meng Yu: [00:23:32] Yeah, absolutely. That's a really fabulous question. you mentioned faith, and I think that's a really interesting concept to dig into because I actually hesitate to use the word faith. I like to use the word trust know that we can develop our existential trust through understanding. Tempo with these. modalities, like I mentioned, there's this, putting us back into time, into rhythm, not just Chinese astrology. I think all ancient calendars does this for us, that they Put us back into an earth based tempo and rhythm and helps us understand that the meaning of our lives come from the context of everything that sustains us. And that this isn't some kind of belief system that you have to be indoctrinated in. It is an observable truth that you can see through observing patterns. and cyclical time. Yin and yang is not some far fetched idea that you have to believe in. It's literally night and day, these are the basic rhythms through which our lives have delineation and tempo and when we develop our synchronicity with this type of regularity and rhythm, we develop a kind of trust. and This trust comes from confidence through observation over time, and because we don't like live outside anymore, we're not really in touch with what our ancestors, the ancients observed and recorded in their calendars. You know, the regularity of movement from observing the sun, the moon, the stars and the seasons. And when we can reunite with that, that actually provides a sense of trust. so, when we engage in these modalities, whether it's astrology or divination, we're, we're reading tempo and even with Chinese medicine, Chinese medicine takes a pulse, you know, it's reading your body as a tempo. It's indicating your rhythm, the quality of your rhythm. So even in our medicine, we are reading our bodies temporally. So this idea of time is so fundamental for me in this idea of trust in alignment with rhythm and regularity. In the Tao Te Ching, which is one of the canonical texts of Daoism, the word for trust, Ching, is used many times and it's about, trust is defined. also as a kind of power. It's defined as how beings attain their actuality, that you need trust in order to grow, that it's part of your process of becoming. And through Daoism and through Chinese astrology, which was very much, informed through Daoism. And we learned that the way to grow our Xing, our trust, is to return our body to the rhythm of the universe. Now that the Daoist cure for our anxieties, which stem from a sense of our independent existence. You know, of our, individuality that is such a small, piece of this enormity. The cure for our anxieties is to identify our singularity, our single body with the body of the whole world. And we do that through aligning our tempo, aligning our rhythm. this is one way that we see the intricate ways that we are all interconnected. And I know I just said some really kind of big abstract things, but, I hope that's making sense.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:49] Yes, no, aligning and yeah, the tempo and pace of the world. I saw something recently that was like, you know, the power of treating our own bodies like gardens that we're cultivating and not like machines. And I feel like that's sticking to what you were just talking about, too, of like, you know, we are also. Plants and beings that need to be tended to and taken care of and to see ourselves that way in alignment with like the world and the pace of the world.   Meng Yu: [00:28:16] Yeah, absolutely. I love that plant metaphor because it brings us back in touch with life and life cycles, that seeds are sown in the spring. Leaves are shed in the fall, you know, that. Life force and life energy also needs to have time to retreat and withdraw in the winter. All the chi is going back underneath the ground where it's not visible. All the outward and external energy is going inward. It's going hidden. That's the power of yin. When we observe and practice modalities that have survived, not just one genocide, but many, many genocides over thousands of years, we can start to build of broader understanding of the patterns of the universe, the cycles of time. And this is one way that we can embrace and this work with the realities of what's happening, you know, in the current poly crises of our times in, civilization and ecological collapse, you know, it's important that we come to terms with where we are in cycles so that we do the practice that is needed of the Grieving of shedding the anger and the sadness that comes with this time to not live in denial of it and to learn from our ancestors and how they have survived through these times through the practice and the wisdom of understanding, The cycles of nature, how we renew and, regenerate life, the daoists were really concerned with, what is called immortality, but immortality is not like one person living forever. Immortality is. A broader concept about the continuation of life, you know, how do we live in a way that is truly sustainable, that is self sustaining in Chinese, the word for nature is zhi ran, which means self: zhi ran self fulfilling, self renewing, self sustaining. So embedded in the wisdom of these practices is this sense of aligning our lives, aligning our choices in a way that allows life to continue.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:52] Absolutely. Yes. more life and more environments where life can grow and thrive. I'm curious, you know, if anyone who's listening is now really interested in learning more about Chinese astrology, learning more about your work, what would be the best ways for them to start? And then also if there's anything else that you want to share.   Meng Yu: [00:31:11] The best way to find me is to go to my website. I'm not on social media, so, you'll have to get on the web and find me at www. tigereyeastrology.com and from there you can, contact me, request a reading, as well as just read more about, the different modalities that I practice, a little more about myself, and the perspectives that I bring.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:31:38] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org. Next up is Miko's interview with Norma Wong.   Miko Lee: [00:32:01] Welcome Norma Wong to Apex Express. We are so happy to have you with us today.   Norma Wong: [00:32:06] Aloha, Mikko. Thank you for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:32:09] I want to just first start off, you, hold dear to my heart. I just finished reading your book, which I'm excited to talk about, but I just want to start in the very beginning by asking you a question, which is based on a question from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you from them?    Norma Wong: [00:32:29] Oh, Miko, how much time do you have? my people are people of the Pacific. You know, the people who came, who crossed the ocean, now six generations ago to this place called Hawaii, who are the haka. Nomadic people of China who really traveled all over China came as contract work and my people are the indigenous people of Hawaii, of these islands where I live and where you happen to be right now, on in terms of this interview and, with the indigenous people, the Kanaka Maoli, the native wines of this place. I am blessed to be the ancestors of these two strong strands of people and really, people who have long migrated, irrespective of where they're coming from, where they're going to.   Miko Lee: [00:33:23] That is beautiful. And what legacy do you carry with you from those people?    Norma Wong: [00:33:28] I would say the legacy that I carry is the legacy of remembering food, remembering stories, passing on stories, creating stories into the future so that we may know where it is that we will go to. And I would say that I also carry the legacy of people who can both be with each other and also be fiercely independent with respect to not having to really depend on anything other than their wits, the land that they're on, of the people who are close to them, what the winds may be able to tell them.   Miko Lee: [00:34:11] Thank you so much. I'm very excited. I just finished reading your new book, which is titled, When No Thing Works: A Zen and Indigenous Perspective on Resilience, shared purpose, and leadership in the timeplace of collapse. Incredibly long title and incredibly appropriate for the time we live in right now. Can you share a little bit about what inspired you to create this work?    Norma Wong: [00:34:39] Well, I will, I will say frankly that the book would have not been written if not for Taj James and some of your listeners may know who this is. He is a movement leader and activist, who resides in Northern California, but really does a lot of work everywhere. And Taj, actually convinced me over a two year time period, to write this particular book. And I finally did so, because of a question that he asked. The question that he asked is, with respect to the kinds of knowledge that spiritual ways practice and pass on person to person, can that happen quickly enough only with the people who are directly in front of you? Will that happen quickly enough for the times that we're in? And I had to reflect upon that and say, no, because we were in a time of collapse. And so I had to take the chance of writing something that would find its way into the hands of people who were not directly in front of me. And that is, not the ways of the long line of teachers that I have had.   Miko Lee: [00:35:58] Can you talk a little bit about some of the teachers that you've had and how you carry on the legacy of those teachers that you have had, the impact they've made on you.    Norma Wong: [00:36:09] I've been blessed with many teachers, some of whom are in my young time days. I particularly remember a teacher from my elementary school days, Mrs. Trudy Akau. She was, Native Hawaiian and Portuguese and a woman of big voice and grand stature. And Mrs. Akau really wanted every single one of her students to Be able to find voice in whatever ways, that they might, whether it be writing or through reading or speaking, telling stories. So I certainly remember. This is a call. I remember Tanoi Roshi, uh, my Zen teacher. He was born Stanley Tanoi, second generation Japanese American grew up in Hawaii and who became a teacher. in his own right, not only with respect to Zen, but the martial arts and Stanley Tanoy, who we all know is Tanoy Roshi, is certainly considered to be my primary spiritual teacher, for whom it is now my responsibility to follow his line. I would say that there are people that I have worked with. who are my teachers, you know, so John Waiheee, who was the first native Hawaiian governor of Waii, I certainly consider him to be a significant teacher of mine, as do some young people, some people who are younger than I am. I consider them to be my teachers as well.   Miko Lee: [00:37:41] You mentioned your Zen teacher, Tanoue Tenshin Roshi and you quote in the book him saying, the truth is the intersection of everyone's perspective, if we could only know that. Can you speak more about this?    Norma Wong: [00:37:55] We are, as humans, we're, we're very certain that our perspective is the truth, that whatever it is that we see. But even from a biological perspective, science shows that what it is that registers in our mind is only a small portion of what it is that even our biology is absorbing. And so. We have this tendency to have a lens with respect to how we see the world that lens is colored by many things. And so what is actually so is difficult to ascertain. And this is just in terms of what may be right in front of us, let alone that which may come to us on a secondhand basis, and even more complicated by the way people get most of their information these days. Which is not through direct experience, but through information that has been provided by other channels, the vast aspects of social media, for example, the echo chambers of the conversation, in which we take as facts, things that are talked about that have been observed by other people who are analyzing that which someone else may or may not have actually seen by their own eyes. So we're many times removed from the actual experience of things. And so to know the truth, is a complex thing.    Miko Lee: [00:39:28] As you sort of mentioned this, but it feels like we are living, in this time where there's multiple truths, and especially with the propaganda that we're seeing from right wing mindsets that are really resistant to, influence especially around harm, unless they directly experienced that harm. In cases where it feels like this progress is really stalled until those people experience that kind of harm personally, what is the best way for us to intervene constructively?    Norma Wong: [00:39:56] Well, I think the first thing that we have to do is to make sure that we are also not doing the same thing in reverse. You know, which is to say that the aspect of harm, The many impacts that people may feel will be felt differently. So that which I believe has harmed me would seem to you as not being harmful at all. We tend to see harm, not from a meta perspective, but from an individualized perspective. And so to actually come out of the weeds of that and place ourselves In an observer's stance of community more generally, of humans more generally, not within the analysis of that, not within the frameworks of that, but to observe actual experiences is something that needs to happen on the left and the right and the center. the American. Value system doesn't help, which is to say that we live in a very individualized society. Our country was formed on the basis of values that are individualized. Even something that we'd say may be universal, such as human rights, we tend to think of it through an individualized lens. And to come more into the whole of it, to not. view our existence as being either dependent or independent of others, but more from the perspective of being interdependent. And you know, by interdependence, I'm, I mean that the success that we may have is born not only of my efforts, but the efforts of others. And if it is at the expense of someone else's welfare, then it is not interdependent. So that type of existence, you know, which I would describe as a more indigenous way of being, is what our times call for.    Miko Lee: [00:41:55] I'm wondering, you have such an interesting background as working in the legislature here in Hawaii and then fighting for homeland rights, supporting people in Lahaina. I'm wondering how you have combined both your indigenous background and your own. Zen belief system, how that has influenced you politically.   Norma Wong: [00:42:16] Well, if I were to reflect on that question, I would say that I was extraordinarily fortunate to begin my spirit practice at almost the same instant that I was coming up in the political world. And so I. did not see one as separate from the other. In fact, I would say that the fortune of that is that there are many aspects about the introspective nature of spirit work that, you have to interrupt your ego at every instant. And as you might imagine, there are many ways in, in the political world. Where the ego takes on an outsized importance to what it is that you're doing. And so it's an important centering value that you would get from the Zen practice. But to me, A thing that attracted me to Zen is that it is almost inherently indigenous and, by that I mean that the Zen values are based on interdependence of the whole and the whole does not only include humans, it includes other beings in the universe itself. And so, to center your political actions and the ways in which you might grapple with an issue is not to separate the issue from the people and the place, and to take into consideration not only the history of that, but what your actions would mean for the descendants that have not yet been born. And in that respect, there's should be no separation. In fact, there should be a profound way, in which that can hold your political decision making. your political conversation, your political actions within the concepts and the values of people in place.    Miko Lee: [00:44:08] So centering on people and place and our interconnectedness with each other. That's really powerful and so important and I'm going back to your saying we have to interrupt the ego and I'm wondering in times when we're about to see 45 enter into his, second administration and the impact of somebody who is ego full or narcissistic and this divide that we're seeing, how do we hold faith in ourselves to help to interrupt that ego when it's happening on such a national scale?    Norma Wong: [00:44:41] Well, there's a thing about ego, which is to say that My ego can only be interrupted by me. Your ego can only be interrupted by you. Now, strategy is a different thing, but that's not the subject of this interview. But with respect to ego, it's going to be part of the environment. it's going to be part of what exists and it'll be a powerful way in which you would see many egos, playing with each other. That's going to be a dynamic that will occur. So I would say there's a lot of work to do. Especially if we know that the construct of government, irrespective of whether this person or another person is holding this job. is in a place of peril and the institutions generally are having difficulty in this moment. Some people, because of who it is that they are and the ego that they have, will supercharge the collapse. In other words, they will increase the momentum of that collapse. And so, in that increase of the momentum of the collapse, there's a lot going on. To be done to ensure that peoples and communities and places are able to do what may be necessary to effectively sustain themselves and each other in relationship to each other, all of the things that they may have otherwise been dependent on the artificial structure called government. And with respect to ego, for us to understand that we have to have enough healthy ego to believe in our own capacity, to be able to work with each other, to take on this huge task, not only through these next four years, but in a period of time beyond that.   Miko Lee: [00:46:29] And what are some of the practices or frameworks that can help sustain us during this time to come?    Norma Wong: [00:46:35] Certainly the practice of, not running dry, you know, that within every 24 hour cycle, if we are to be at the top of our game, then we have to pay attention to make sure that we have enough rest, that we have the sustenance we need, Remain hydrated. I mean, very simple things to not waste away our time in the internal dialogue that keeps spinning to separate ourselves from the habits that keep us from making decisions that taking on too many things means that no thing that you do will be given the kind of attention that it needs, the kind of focus that it needs. the kind of depth that it requires. And so this is a time of choices, in order to achieve that place of abundance. You cannot have many things on the plate at the same time. So simple choices, with respect to the practices that you have, And once that require the dreaded D word, which is discipline.    Miko Lee: [00:47:43] Mm. One of the things that has arisen a lot within the network that I work in, AACRE, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, is a lot of folks, especially young folks, are finding themselves in able to have conversation with family members or elders that, have different political viewpoints what is a good way to go about navigating this tension with people who hold really different political and therefore, in their minds, worldviews than you, but you are connected to?    Norma Wong: [00:48:12] Well, it may not be possible to have a political conversation the question is, are you still in relationship? I think that is the primary question. are you able to meet someone's eyes? Or do you just look away? can you feed each other? I mean, literally, do you know the foods that other people desire or need? Can you make them? Not just buy it and assemble it from the nearest store. Are we tending to each other's needs? Emotional welfare, are we observant of the ways in which we may be getting into a place of need that we're not asking support for. It's like politics should not be. the first conversation you have with someone, it's like that, the first conversations that you would have with people should be one of relationship and of community, and that if you're going to slip into that part where you're going to say, well, because of your politics, I'm going to put you in this room or that room, then the, possibility of us being able to proceed as people is just not going to be possible. The civil rights, as a political movement, succeeded. I believe that as a social change movement, there is still a lot of work to be done. And that we put a little bit too much of a dependence on the wins that we had politically. And then We believed that, because those wins were, that the world would change as a result of that. Hearts and minds were not necessarily changed. And the heart and mind work is the work of community, the work of storytelling, the work of arts, generally. The work of building relationships with people, so that irrespective of the label that they thought that you carry, that you can have a greater understanding of desires and motivations, needs, and ways in which you might be able to be mutually with each other. So we have to start by actually being in relationship with people versus relationship with our ideas. A relationship with points of view and that is something that we may have given short shrift to. And I would say that that's like a Western kind of thing, like, you know, okay, we're going to have a meeting and, let's sit down for a meeting. By the way, we're not going to spend any time getting to know each other. We want to get directly to. Whatever the point of the meeting happens to be, or in the case of family. You know, it's like, families are complicated. One of the reasons why families are complicated is because we are in blood relationship to each other and therefore forever bound. But that does not mean that we have actually done the work to get to know each other. It does not mean that at all.   Miko Lee: [00:51:09] Thank you. I'm wondering if you can, talk about how do we hold on to our work as activists, and kind of the ultimate urgency of what's happening in the world, like I'm thinking specifically, there's a lot of conversations about the new laws that might happen right after the inauguration . And so there's a sense of urgency there. How do we hold on to ourselves but balance that with that sense of urgency.    Norma Wong: [00:51:34] Well, I like to put urgency in a slightly different perspective. Which is to say that the urgency that I see is what is the work that needs to be done to ensure that descendants that are not yet born will be able to live the kind of life that I would hope them to have in a world that would be able to sustain that. And if I put that out, as. What is urgent, then that forces me, in a way that I choose into, to pay attention to. Larger stories, larger work, more extensive aspects of work that also require many more people to be engaged in. And, to begin right now, because it's urgent, you know, for example, if there's a possibility, That the aquifer will become contaminated, and we do not yet know whether or not that will be the case. Then it's urgent that we work to make sure that whatever contaminant is in the ground will not get to the aquifer and therefore, we have to work on that right now. And so that which we may advocate for with urgency will be about the things that are going to be required. For the long haul and not just a defensive reactive, type of action, just to attempt to defend the things that are collapsing around us at the moment caught. In a tighter and tighter action reaction, a kind of way in which we make choices and make decisions, which will mean that the urgent work to ensure that the descendants will be able to have a better life in a sustainable place. will not be done and will not done in time for that to occur.    Miko Lee: [00:53:26] Thank you so much, for pulling that sense of urgency out to a broader perspective. It reminds me of that Grace Lee Boggs quote, what time is it on the clock of the world that we're really thinking about multiple generations and the ancestors to come and not just what the deadline is immediately. Can you talk with us a little bit about the hu, Hu, that you describe in your book?    Norma Wong: [00:53:50] So I think of Hu as, you know, capital H and, small U as like the missing element on the periodic table. Okay. So, you know, the periodic table it contains all of the elements that are supposed to exist in the universe, and I believe that there's an element called the human quotient. The human quotient is the stuff that humans need to have in order for us to actually evolve as the peoples that we're intended to be. And that the earth requires so, you know, among the human quotient elements would be courage, for example, courage being that which we do, even in the face of fear. So there'll be characteristics like that, but even more fundamental than the characteristics, there is whether or not we will access.and hold d center to everything, the collective humanity of who we are and who we need to become. Whether we take that at the center or will we, will we just see people as a series of identities, a series of allegiances to particular flags as keepers and adherence to ideologies. as, generations or genders, will we just see people as categories? And so, this aspect of coming into our humanity, is what I'm referring to as the human quotient. One of the chapters in the book.    Miko Lee: [00:55:27] Thank you so much. Can you tell us what you would love people to understand after reading your book, When No Thing Works?   Norma Wong: [00:55:37] I would want them to understand that the work is a distillation. So it's very concentrated. It's like Malolo syrup, a favored concentrated syrup that is essentially the fruit punch of the islands. You have to add water to it in order for you to get it to a place where it can actually bear fruit and it can be delicious for you. And that water is yourself, your own experience, your own practice, your own hopes, your own purposes. And if you add that to the book, then the book will be your Malolo syrup.    Miko Lee: [00:56:17] Oh, that is such a great analogy. I love that you're talking to it. It's a syrup. And actually there is a tudy guide or it's called navigate, but the resource to help people go through the book and have conversations with family and friends, which I think is so lovely. It's such a great way for people to read the book in community.    Norma Wong: [00:56:37] Yes. The book site is, Normawong.com and, I believe that the Navigate Guide will be available on that site.    Miko Lee: [00:56:46] And I will host a link to all those things on the show notes for Apex Express. Norma Wong, thank you so much for spending time sharing with us about your work. Um, I really appreciate you and the wisdom that you're sharing for multiple generations. Thank you so much.   Norma Wong: [00:57:04] Thank you, Miko. Thank you so much. Please enjoy your day.    Miko Lee: [00:57:09] You too. And I also want to give a shout out to my amazing friend that introduced me to you, Mariah Rankin Landers, whose book, Do Your Lessons Love Your Students? Creative Education for Social Change really influenced me. And she helped provide some of the context for this conversation. So I thank you to Mariah and thank you for spending time with me, Norma. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.     The post APEX Express – 1.16.25 – Pathways To Humanity appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – January 9, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – January 2, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – December 26, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   In this episode of APEX Express, host Cheryl shares Part 1 of a powerful intergenerational conversation featuring the OG organizers of Chinese for Affirmative Action (CAA) and young leaders from Hmong Innovating Politics (HIP). The discussion highlights the challenges and inspirations that drove CAA's founders to join the Asian American Movement of the '60s and '70s, offering valuable lessons for sustaining activism across generations. Important Links: Chinese for Affirmative Action: Website  |  Instagram Hmong Innovating Politics: Website  |  Instagram Transcript   Cheryl Truong: good evening and welcome to tonight's episode of apex express. I'm your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight is an AACRE night. Now you might be wondering what is AACRE. AACRE stands for the Asian Americans for civil rights and Equality network, which is made up of 11 grassroots, social justice groups. Together leverage the power of our network to focus on longterm movement, building and support for Asian-Americans committed to social justice. And speaking of AACRE groups. APEX express is proud to be a part of the AACRE network.  For tonight's show, I'm thrilled to share a really special and intimate recording from a panel discussion we hosted here at the AACRE network that bridges generations of organizing. This panel brought together the OGs– originals– who helped build chinese for Affirmative Action or CAA into the esteemed 50 year old civil rights organization it is today. Alongside young organizers from Hmong Innovating Politics, also known as HIP, who are paving the way for Hmong Americans in Sacramento and Fresno. Both hip and CAA are vital groups within the AACRE network. The purpose of this exchange. To spark an intergenerational dialogue between seasoned CAA leaders and current hip staff and exploring how their roles in the movement have evolved over time.  Together, they delve into the strategies they've employed to sustain their impact over decades of organizing. However, this is only part one of what is and was a much longer conversation. So for tonight's episode, we'll focus on getting to know some of the CAA OGs. You'll hear them introduce themselves. Share some of the hardships they faced as pivotal organizers during the Asian-American movement of the tumultuous sixties and seventies. And reflect on what catalyze them to get involved in the movement. Through the stories we hope to uncover lessons from the past that can guide us in sustaining and evolving the fight for justice today. So stay tuned. It's going to be an inspiring and reflective journey into the heart of activism.  So I'm pleased to introduce. The panel facilitator, Miko Lee who is AACRE's director of programs. And CAA OGs Germaine Wong Henry Der Laureen Chew Stephen Owyang and Yvonne Yim-Hung Lee  Miko: Yvonne,  what was a kind of chrysalis moment for you in terms of social justice? Yvonne Yim-Hung Lee: First of all, when I got the email, I didn't know what O. G. was, so I said “Oh Geezer!” That's how I interpret it. I said “Oh, I'm there!” This is going to be a really honest and frank family gathering so thank you inviting me and I'm really excited to be here with my, peers and colleagues and more importantly to really hear from you, your experience. I am a first generation immigrant. My parents were very well to do business people in Hong Kong. They decided to immigrate to this country with three young kids. My father when he was young, he was the richest boy in his village. Overnight, people came and forced his father to give up 98 acres of their 99 acre farm. So from being the richest boy in town, in his village, to have to go to Hong Kong to live with this uncle. My mom was from a rich family in China also. Her father was one of the few merchants who came to the U.S. after the Chinese Exclusion Act, he went to New York, opened up a pastry shop, but he found his goal. He won second prize of a New York lotto. So he decided to go back to China because even though he was a merchant, he experienced a lot of discrimination. He never talked about his experience in America. But my mom was a little princess. You know, we used to call her , and her friends, the little Paris Hilton of the group, because that's what they did. They went to school as ABC's, never had to work a day in their life. But one thing, She and my father, because they were both from richest families in different villages, they were supposed to be matched up. But by the time they were at marriage age, he was already a poor kid. But my mom told the father, said, a promise is a promise.. So she married this poor guy, moved to Hong Kong, and he did quite well for himself. So we were brought up, ” money is not what should drive you in your life. You can lose it in one day. The most important thing is to have a good heart, to make sure that everything in this world, you have to make a difference. Whether it's to your family, or to others. You cannot be angry, because someone else is going to make you angry. When we came, it was a really tough time for him. You know, we lived really well in Hong Kong. Coming here to live in Chinatown back in the 60s really wasn't that pleasant. But, we made do based on the three principles. We came here for freedom. We came here for knowledge. And knowledge doesn't mean just college. So we were lucky. We never were forced to study certain fields so that we can make money because for him, it was always experience to really, really take in the nourishment for yourself, but give out whatever you have to others. So based on the guidance and that's how, that's my North Star. That's what's driven me. So I went to Davis. Yay Davis and the Cows! They're still there. What really got me to community activism was when I was 16, I was in the hospital. And They put this, at the time I thought she was elderly, but thinking back she was probably in her 30s. But when she was 16, anyway over 20 is elderly. And she could not speak English. And they could not communicate with her. And half of the hospital staff was making fun of her. And that was in, 70? 1970? It wasn't that long ago. It was still in my our lifetime. So, I was young but I acted as her translator. It was very difficult because she has women issues. And I didn't know her. And her husband was standing there. And she had to tell me her most intimate thing. And all the room of doctors, nurses and everything– they were very dismissive of her because of the fact that she did not speak their language. So because of that I felt that that's wrong. Because prior to that, even when we were living in Chinatown, I still felt I was privileged. You know, we weren't poor. We were still doing well. But after seeing that experience, it really taught me that even though we came to America for freedom, freedom is only for those who could really stand for themselves. And there are some who, if they cannot, send someone else in to fight with them. Not for them, but with them. So that's how I started my career, and I jumped from place to place. I'm not the CAA member, but I'm the honorary member of CAA because I had the privilege of working with Henry. All the meetings that we had back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s and everything with Ted and Steve on redistricting, immigration reform, census, welfare reform, everything that we today take granted. We don't even think about it. Came from here. This room. Before this room, it was another room. It was a little less, little place. We, we moved up by, by moving here in the 90s. So, thank you so much for this privilege and I look forward to our conversation. Miko: Thank you, Yvonne. And I just, OG, just so you know, does not mean OG. Does anybody want to explain what OG means? Hmong Innovating Politics (HIP) Staff: Old Gangster   Miko: It's actually a hip hop terminology for gangster, but it actually means the original. Who's the original, the source of the knowledge, the source of the power. So it's, we use it with love and honor.  Yvonne Yim-Hung Lee: Intergenerational communication.  Miko: I'm sorry I did  Henry Derr: I have to say, I never liked the term O. G. when I first heard it. Because I thought it meant an old guy, Even though I'm old, I didn't want to admit that I was old. , one thing I have to say straight away is, you all are happy about this weather, I'm very unhappy about this weather, because I, even though I'm a native of San Francisco, Chinatown, at the age of seven, my family moved into Stockton. I went through all my schooling till I graduated from Franklin High School on the east side of Highway 99. Some of you may have, your high schools may have competed against Franklin High School. When we moved into Stockton for the longest time, We could never figure out why in the hell our father moved us into Stockton, because we were the only one or two Chinese family on the east side of Stockton right there on Main Street. And then over time, and actually very recently when I think about it, there was, he probably had a good reason for moving us into Stockton. Because my father was actually quite clever in terms of circumventing the discriminatory impact of the Chinese Exclusion Act. As some of you may know, a lot of Chinese men who came here to the United States after the Exclusion Act had to lie about who they were. They would claim that they were sons of U. S. citizens in order to enter the United States. Well, it turned out that my father and my mother on paper had 17 children. And in our family, there were really only just eight of us who were born from our parents and my oldest brother who was adopted. The rest were actually paper sons. So my father moved the family into Stockton because I remember very clearly when I was less than five years old, my mom said to us, children, don't say anything about the family when you go out the streets and I could never understand why don't say anything about that. Well, it turned out that. There were a lot of immigration agents prowling around Chinatown during the fifties, during the confession program. So, I think my father made the right choice to move the family into Stockton. And we always longed about coming back to San Francisco. But also looking back at it, it was actually a blessing in disguise. Because I actually grew up, as some of you may know, from Fresno, Sacramento, Visalia, Ceres, Modesto, then, not now. It was actually, I lived in a very diverse neighborhood. There were blacks, there were Mexicans and there were whites and the whites were not rich. They were like the rest of us. They were poor from Oklahoma. So probably the first social, I would consider this first social justice consciousness that I developed during the 19 50s and 60s when I was growing up. In addition to following what was going on and unfolding with the Black Civil Rights Movement in the South, was that Stockton Unified was impacted by school desegregation and there was busing. So there was a lot of talk that kids from our high school in Franklin were going to be bused to Stagg High School. And at that time, in the 50s and 60s, Stagg was all white, they were all wealthy, and we basically protested, said, we are not going to go, that we're not, we don't need those rich white folks. We're okay by ourselves. So that kind of built a consciousness in me. And I would say the other big social justice consciousness was really actually during college, when many of us protested against the war in Vietnam. We marched to the Oakland Army Induction Center in Oakland. We had a sleep in, in the old student union on the college campus. We didn't get arrested like the kids are being arrested today who are protesting the atrocities in Gaza. During my last year in college, There wasn't anything known as Asian American Studies, but there were enough black students who wanted black studies on the campus. So, we just joined in and helped protest that there was an absence of black studies on the college campus. After I graduated from college, I knew that I was going to go into Peace Corps because I was inspired by President Kennedy. And it didn't make, truth be told, it made no difference what college I was going to go to. I knew I was going to go into Peace Corps, and that's what I did, because the last year I was in college, they offered Swahili, and I said, oh, that's perfect, I'm going to enroll in Swahili, and I end up going to Kenya for two years. And after two years of service in Kenya, you know, it kind of made sense for me to say, you know, if I can go halfway around the world to do public service work, I can certainly come back to Chinatown and do community work. And that's how I end up coming back to San Francisco in 1970. And then, The rest is whatever I did.  Female speaker: The rest is history.  Female Speaker 2: The rest is documented history.  Miko: We'll get into that a little bit more. Steve, what about you? What was your first kind of experience of recognizing social justice?  Stephen Owyang: Okay, so, Both sides of my family came to the U. S. a long time ago in the 1870s from Southern China. And they were in San Francisco until the big earthquake in 1906, after which point most of the family went into the Sacramento Valley. So I was born in Sacramento. I was raised in, down the river in the Delta. I'm really excited to meet you because my father had a small business back then and we went up and down Highway 99 all the time. So, Stockton, Lodi, Modesto, Merced, Kingsburg, Fresno, Hanford, Ripon, Visalia. And my father's business was basically delivering stuff to little mom and pop grocery stores run by Chinese families, mainly from one little county in Guangdong province. There was no I 5 back then, just 99, and you know, in the summer, as you know, it gets really hot. So it was a treat for me to go along with my father because I always got free sodas at every store, so I would go out with him and you know after six or seven sodas It was like, it was a great day. My first glimmers about social justice were just growing up in the Delta and I'll give you three stories.  It's the town of Walnut Grove, and the town of Walnut Grove on Highway 160 is one of the few delta towns that are on both sides of the river. There's a bridge that connects it. And on one side of the river, it's middle class and upper middle class and wealthy white families. Our side of the river, you had the folks from the Dust Bowl days, as Henry mentioned, people from Oklahoma and Texas who came out during the Depression. You also had a small Chinatown, a small J Town, a small Filipino area, a small Mexican area. And that just reflected the social conditions of California agriculture, because each one of those communities at one time was the main source of farm workers. And in fact, my own family, because of the alien land laws, they were farmers, but they couldn't own farmland, right? And so they were sharecroppers. Just, you hear about sharecropping happening in the South, but it also happened in California. So when I was growing up, three things. On the rich side of town, the white side of town, there's a swimming pool that was only open to white families. It was a private pool. You could only go there if you were a member. You could only be a member if you were white. The only way I could go there is if a friend who's a white, from a white family, who's a member, takes you there as a guest. So that's number one. Number two. My best friend was from one of these landed white families, and we were, we were very close. We were good students in elementary school. And then one day in the seventh grade, he, he takes me aside and he says, You know, I can't hang out with you anymore because my mom says I need to have more white friends. So he just cut it off like that. And I, that's the, that's, that's the truth. That's just how it happened. I guess the other thing that affected me back then was I used to go to a little American Baptist church and we had, I guess visits to black churches. And I remember going up to Sacramento on one of these visits and one of the kids there did Martin Luther King's, I have a dream speech from memory. And, it's like amazing oration. And I thought, wow, there's something. going on here that you sort of opened up my eyes to the situation in this country.  So basically until high school, I was a country kid, you know, but then we moved out to San Francisco and it was a big culture shock, big shock. So I was in, I basically came out for high school and this was in the late 60s and I remember it was 1968 when Laureen was on strike for, uh, Ethnic Studies and the Third World Strike in SF State. My high school was literally a few blocks away. I was at Lowell High. And students from SF State were coming over and leafleting us. I started reading that stuff and that's when I really got interested in what was going on at State and later on when I was at Berkeley, you know, in Ethnic Studies. So I think my grounding came from Ethnic Studies, the anti war movement, and, you know, I would love to talk to you about the whole thing about the Vietnam War because, You know, I'm guessing maybe your parents or grandparents were involved in the secret war in Laos, a war that the U. S. wouldn't even acknowledge happened even though we were bombing Laos. So it was ethnic studies, the civil rights movement, and the anti war movement that got me involved. In Berkeley, I was involved in some of the ethnic studies stuff. Even though I'm a fourth generation Chinese American, it's always been very important to me to try to learn the language so I was in the Cantonese working group. So I helped put together the curriculum stuff that was going on in Asian American Studies. I think before Germaine was there, or maybe around the same time. Yeah, I've known these folks for literally 50 years. It's kind of scary. So, um, I was inspired by what was going on at CAA, what Laureen was doing at SF State. So I joined CAA. Biggest mistake of my life. Because I saw this little ad in East West newspaper, used to be this community newspaper, and there was literally a coupon that you would clip out. And I sent in the coupon with a 5 check. It's like the most expensive 5 I've spent in my whole life. And then I went to law school, and I was involved in the law caucus and a number of other things, but my first job out of law school was Right here at CAA. Well, not here, but up on Stockton Street. Henry was my boss. You know, I feel like I would have been less burned out had we done some of this stuff. But we didn't do any of this. I remember my first desk had literally a door on top of like cardboard boxes. That was our office back then. And in one form or another, I've been involved in CAA ever since. I've been in a couple of organizations. Other organizations, but CAA is the one that's closest to my heart, and I'll tell you why. One, I met my wife here. And number two, I feel like the great thing about CAA is it's never lost its real community roots. I feel like other organizations do great work, don't get me wrong, but I feel like CAA has always maintained a real close connection to the community, and that's why everybody. I wrote that 5 check and, and several others. So yeah, that's, that's my story.  Miko: Thanks, Steve. Laureen, what about you?  Laureen Chew: Wow, this is amazing. Listening to everybody else's story, really. I guess I'll start pretty much how, my family was. My grandfather came in 1870s. I think I found out when I went to the roots program, which is only like five years ago, that was an adventure. so my parent, my father and his whole family was born here and born during Chinese exclusion. And so obviously they lived in Chinatown and nowhere else to go, even though they, my father and especially his, younger siblings. They all spoke English. Interestingly, his first two sisters were born here too. They didn't speak a lick of English because they never went to school. So what was really interesting for me, so I was born and raised in Chinatown. Okay. I wasn't born in Chinese Hospital. I was born in Children's Hospital, which everybody thinks is odd. But that's another story. My mother is actually an immigrant. She's a first generation, but she didn't come until 1947. So what's interesting is that I'm always kind of stuck between generations, like one and a half. But having a very strong mother who spoke only Chinese and my father's side, who's mostly English speaking. But a lot of them, my cousins or whatever, they were a lot older. They did speak Chinese also. But what's really stark to me is because growing up in Chinatown, you go to school with basically majority Chinese kids, right? And so you live in this community that on the one hand is very nurturing, very safe. Very intimate in a lot of ways. All my cousins and whatever are here. I mean, to show you how large my father's side was, when my aunt, the oldest aunt had her 50th anniversary wedding anniversary, she married when she was 14 because otherwise women, people forget. I I'm probably the first generation of women that either had a choice to not get married and I was still able to eat because I made my own money. Okay, my mother's generation, no, all her friends, no, you know, so don't take that one for granted either as women. So what was interesting was the fact that because she is very strong in being Chinese and then my father's side are total assimilationists, mainly, which was really interesting because many of them who grew up during Chinese exclusion. It was horrific, but you would never, I never heard one story. His family must have had over 300 people because his sister had 13 kids. Okay, then they had all had kids, one at 10, one of her daughter in law. So it was like huge. Growing up in this area, I just never felt I was different than anyone else because you don't come in contact with anyone that's really different until I went to high school. My mother is the immigrant. She wanted to send me to a school that was not a public school that a lot of the Chinatown kids went to, which was Galileo, because she somehow felt that I would be the kind of kid that would go not the straight and narrow, but more towards the the More naughty kids, to put it mildly, she knew that. So what she did was that she sent me to a Catholic school, okay, because she, God knows, oh yeah, she went to school for two years in Hong Kong. She's another story, she didn't have any money, and so she was given to an aunt to be raised. So she married to get out of Hong Kong because At twenty, she told me the only thing she told me was at twenty seven, I was considered an old maid. And then my father, who was, didn't have, there weren't very many women here because of Chinese exclusion, and he had to marry Chinese, actually saw my mom, and my mom's a picture bride, so they didn't even know each other when they got married. But she took over. My mom is like the queen of the family and the decision maker. And my father made the money and she spent it however little she had. Okay. And going to Catholic school was one thing that she felt that would help me become a good girl, except that I had never been to a where there were white kids. And so this school Was not only Catholic, but it was also a school that was considered kind of the, the best girls, Catholic high school. It was at the end of Chinatown. And that's the only reason why she wanted me to go there because I didn't have to take the bus. I can walk home. It's, it's a French school called Notre Dame de Victoire. So I went there and I thought I would have a really good time, just like all, all the high school. My problem was, was that. I was different, but never to know that you're different until you're in high school. Because you know, you know how mean girls can be in high school. And then they're all, it's an all girls school and it's a small school. And so my mom told me very clearly, you know, it's $150 a year. We really don't have that money, but. You know, we'll scrape and do whatever we can to send you through that. I said, Oh, okay, cool. Right. Except I had no friends. I mean, I was one of three Chinese girls in the school and I never knew how different I was until I got there because I used to get home perms, you know, permanence. And all the other girls had money. They were at least middle class, if not richer, and they all went to beauty parlors. My mom cut my hair and gave me the home perms, and she was into saving money, like I said, so she always kept the perm on longer than you should have it. I swore one year it came out like I had an afro, and I was so embarrassed. I made her cut it just to make it look straighter, but it was horrible. I don't have a picture. No, first of all, pictures aren't that common back then, you know, it costs money to have film and a camera. You didn't even have a camera. Yeah. So anyway, plus another thing is that because I wasn't the smartest Chinese girl either. Okay, the other two Chinese girls did pretty well. They were smart, and they were good in sports. I was neither. And I looked like a dork. Then what would made it even worse was that my mother spoke no English. My father did, but he might as well be absent because he slept during the day and worked at night. So we have things called mother daughter fashion shows. Mother, daughter breakfast. And I saw the way those mothers were dressed and I saw the way everybody acted and my way of dealing with it was I had no mom. I never brought her to the school. Any mother, daughter thing, I didn't go to. You didn't have to. I mean, that made me even less part of the school. And it was very painful because I didn't understand why I would be treated that way. Just because I looked, but I spoke English, it didn't matter. I did look a little weird, you know, so to this, I think it influenced me a couple of ways. One, whenever I had money, clothes was going to be my big deal. It still is, you know, it's kind of psychological. And then secondly, then that was a time that I figured out like, how come I don't, I hate myself and my family versus versus hating those girls. Right. I mean, that's how I dealt with it. It was, I call it a form of self hatred and it's, it's done by schooling. It's done by not only schooling in terms of omission about who we were as a people here, but omission about racism. Omission about discrimination and just about our histories here. But I didn't have a label for it in high school. I just, I really thought there was something wrong with me and my family. And that's the greatest danger about racism, is this form of internalizing it and not having a vehicle to deal with it. And there was nothing in our schools that dealt with it, you know, and I think what I came out of there realizing was that. Oh, another thing, I had mixed messages about what was happening because Martin Luther King was already on TV, and I was trying to watch it, and then I was still in high school, and my mom would, and my cousins, American boys, don't watch the black people. They're troublemakers. You know, all they do is make trouble, you know, they don't, they should be like us. We don't complain, right? We don't make trouble. And that's how you succeed. You succeed, I think, in my, what I was raised with, with the older generation of American born who had to go through this horrific history, you know, one, you don't get a job in Chinatown. You should get a job outside of Chinatown because it means that you're working for white folks and working for white folks is better than working for your own. So self hatred doesn't just run in yourself. It kind of permeates how we feel. feel as, as a group of people, right? And so, my whole thing was that I was looking for answers as to why, why I felt the way I did. And not only that, I wasn't the only one. That's what was interesting. And I didn't realize that until I went to San Francisco state, you know, because I was told, my mom said, you want to go to college, you're going to have to You know, find your way up to court because she, you know, she spent that on my fabulous high school education, which I came up miserable and, and I would tell her I want to go to Galileo. I want to go there. She said, no, you're not going to go. I said, she goes, what is wrong with you? Because I started crying certain times and she would just say, well, you're going to school to learn, not to make friends, so forget about it. I'm giving you the best with best intentions. But then when I went to college, this one girl who grew up in South City, similar experience because South City was all white back then. So she said to me one day, she was, she's Chinese too. And she says, you know, there's a meeting there that's huge. The people are talking about all this stuff. We talk about how we were mistreated in high school and how people are blah, blah. There's a name for it. It's called racism. I was called what racism. Okay. She goes, you want to go? I said, well, who's there? She said, black people. But I said, Oh, my mom would kill me. I mean, I was really worried because my mom doesn't even know what I do at state. So I went. I think that time we had some pretty interesting people. One time there was Eldridge Cleaver, who was the head of the Black Panther Party. Um, there were people like Carlton Goodlett, who was from the Bayview Hunters Point, who had certain people from the mission. They were all kind of leaders of different communities. There was Yuri Wada, who was a Japanese American. He was very prominent in dealing with civil rights. Chinatown, I, George Woo, George Woo is an infamous person also. He was the spokesperson for gang kids in Chinatown. He was very, very, very alive and took over in terms of the whole thing about the youth problems in Chinatown. So he was not part of this group, but just hearing the stories of these other ethnic groups that were very similar, not the same, but this whole thing of like just being dissed for the way you look, the way you speak, and supposedly your values. And my whole thing is that, that thing opened my eyes to the extent that helped me to release a lot of my anger towards something I didn't know who to be angry at, right? So you have to, I felt that the San Francisco State Strike, I mean, I was all in and with a small group of Chinese that were there, including Mason, all these people. And we had to really open our eyes to working with other people that were not like us. And what was more interesting for me to see was that every single group said that if we're ever going to have classes on ethnic studies, a key part of those classes should be why we are getting an education. And why we're getting an education primarily is to serve our communities. So there is a real strong component to ethnic studies that was community based. And because of that, during my college years, I actually came back, I mean came back, I was still living in Chinatown, but I actually placed myself in the Chinatown that I knew nothing about, which is our issues, our problems. And during my time, it was mainly about youth problems. We had a gang problem. We had girls that were on drugs. We had immigrant kids that didn't speak any English and just thrown into schools nilly willy without anybody helping them. So I was lucky enough for three years or four years during college that I worked as a house parent for runaway girls. I worked trying to tutor immigrant kids, you know, and I was trying to become a teacher. So those formative years, in terms of just having my feet in different things really showed me that, you know what, I don't want next generations of people who kind of look like me to have to go through the struggle of hating myself. Because of things that are my home, that are based home base, you know, this country, this is what I feel that very strongly about the United States, that I think people are losing sight of, especially now that we're all in very ethnic silos. This country is very different in the sense of just the whole fact of different groups mixing, you know, you go to China or whatever it's still basically you. you're Chinese, even in my north, south, pink, whatever direction you are. It's still basically Chinese, but in this country you can come from different areas and different places of the world and still have a vision that ties you together. That should be a singular vision, which is a democracy at this point. And then also this very simple statement of justice. And equality for all. We sometimes forget about the all, if we're just kind of in our little silos. But I think that's the reason why, from state on, and reacquainting to my community, it was life changing. Whatever job I took after that, whether I was a teacher, a faculty, associate dean, chair of the department. My main focus was that I'm here for the students and the people, quote unquote, who are here with me that have this similar vision, that we all have a place here. And in order to, for us to really respect others, we have to respect ourselves. And that includes what we're raised with in terms of our values and also our history here. Miko: Thanks, Laureen. Germaine?  Germaine Wong: Oh. well, my experience is similar to many of yours and a little bit different. I grew up in Oakland, Chinatown, and Went to a school that was only three blocks from where I live. And the school was Mexicans, blacks, as well as Chinese. Although I would say maybe half the school, at least half the school was Chinese. And I didn't, I didn't speak any English until I went to school, so I had that experience too. And then, my father was always very upwardly mobile, wanted to live the white middle class life. And I didn't know it at the time, but, he managed to buy property in Castro Valley, Southeast of Oakland. At the time, they wouldn't sell to Chinese. So he got somebody at work to buy the property for him. And then sold it to my father. That's how we got to move there. So I started high school in Castro Valley. I was the only non white in the whole school. The janitors, the cafeteria workers, everybody was white. I was the only one in that school who was not white. But I'm a little bit more dense than all of you, so I was not aware of whatever racism there was. At that time Castro Valley was really white. And also very affluent. So most of my classmates. It's unlike in Oakland, Chinatown, these classmates, they were children of doctors and lawyers and engineers and dentists and most of the people in my high school, they, the kids either had horses or cars. At that time, Castro Valley was not the suburb it is today. Our neighbors, for example, our next door neighbors had chickens and goats So it was really different. So it was all so different from Oakland Chinatown. And then I finally experienced some racism the following year when a black family moved in and somebody really literally did burn a cross in their front lawn. Wow. Yeah. And she was in the same grade I was in, one of the daughters. And then another Chinese girl moved in. And I recognized her, but we were never friends in Oakland Chinatown. And that's where I first experienced reverse discrimination. Because I met the stereotype of an Asian student, right? So I did well in math and all the classes. Well, she was definitely a C student and the teachers treated her as if she was an F student. Teachers just expect us to excel in our classes. So that was my first, really, where it hit home for me. And then in the 50s, in Oakland, Chinatown, I experienced what Henry did during the confession program. So my mother was going through all these things. These are your aunts and uncles and these are not your aunts and uncles. And so if any white person comes and starts asking you about your family, just remember these people are not related to you because all of us had paper names. Like I'm not really a Wong. My family's really a Kwan. But in my situation, I had a great grandfather who was here legitimately. And then the next generation, when they went back, they decided we're never coming back to the United States. So they sold their papers. So then when the next generation decided to come back, they had to buy papers. So my family went through that situation. I had jobs where I lived in, during college, I, I had live in jobs, I lived with a family first when I was going to UC Berkeley, and then later on when I transferred over to San Francisco State, I worked for an older white woman, and so I, I got to see what upper white middle class families lived like, and then with this older woman that I lived in with here in San Francisco, what the rich people lived like, so that was kind a different world. And then somebody asked me to work at the Chinatown YWCA here. And I got to experience San Francisco Chinatown then. I was assigned to work in a pilot program where I worked with third grade Chinatown girls. One group were immigrant girls who lived in the SROs here. They literally are eight by eight rooms with a whole family lives in them. And the kitchen and the bathrooms are down the hall. So that was the first time I had ever seen people living like that, in such crowded digits. And the other group of girls I worked with, again, were middle class, upper middle class Chinese girls whose parents were doctors and dentists and like that. And the woman who was the executive director was a Korean American woman named Hannah Sir. And this was all when I went to college when President Kennedy was assassinated and then Lyndon Johnson became president. And so it was during this time that this Korean American woman said to me, you have to apply for this program because right now, President Lyndon Johnson only thought about blacks and Hispanics who needed help. And we really need to get Asian Americans in. So she convinced me to apply for program and some miracle happened and I got into the program. After I went to that summer training program, I came back here to San Francisco and I was assigned to work in the Bayview, Hunters Point, and Fillmore areas of San Francisco working with black gang kids. That was a new experience for me too. Then from there, then I went to grad school, then when I came back, I got assigned to working here in Chinatown, where I worked mainly with immigrant adults looking for jobs as well as the gang kids, both English speaking as well as Chinese speaking. And, from there, I met people like Ling Chi Wong and Eileen Dong. who were already working in Chinatown before I was. And that's when we got together and Ling Chi was actually the organizer, the lead person. And, we started CAA. So all of us had other jobs. We had full time jobs and so we were doing this kind of on the side. I think Ling Chi was the only one who didn't have a job. He was a graduate student. And I want to tell you, he was a graduate student in Middle Eastern ancient languages. That's what he was studying at UC Berkeley at the time. And, uh, but all the rest of us had full time jobs. We started CAA as a volunteer organization. We had no office, no staff, no money. And that's how we started. And eventually I first met Laureen, who really helped us out with one of our first major projects. Teaching English on television, remember? You and Helen, yes. You and Helen Chin really helped us out. Laureen Chew: Okay, nice to know.  Germaine Wong: And then I remember meeting, and then when Henry came to Chinatown and his Swahili was better than his Cantonese. Wow. Yes. Wow. Anyway, and I met all of these good people and CAA continued to grow. And there still is. Yep. Amazing, amazing story.  And that wraps up part one of this incredible intergenerational conversation. Between the OGs of Chinese for affirmative action. And the young organizers of mung innovating politics. Tonight. We got a glimpse into the powerful stories of CAS.  Of CA's founders.  Their hardships resilience and what drove them to commit their lives to the movement. Their reflections, remind us that the fight for justice is not just about the moments of triumph and the victories, but also about the struggles, the sacrifices. And perhaps most importantly, the. Vital importance of being grounded in our communities and our values. Be sure to join us next time for part two, where we'll dive into the dialogue between. Seasoned OJI leaders and today's. Today's youth Changemakers from Monday innovating politics. Together, they'll explore strategies, how strategies have shifted over the decades and how we can sustain our work for social justice in the longterm. As always thank you for tuning into apex express. For more about Chinese for affirmative action and mung innovating politics.  Please do check them out on their websites, which will be linked in the show notes. At apex express. At kpfa.org/apex express. Until next time. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong  Cheryl Truong: Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – December 19, 2024 – Bridging Generations appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2024 Holiday Fund Drive. To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.   The post Special Holiday Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA's 2024 Holiday Fund Drive. To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.   The post Special Holiday Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – November 28, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – November 21, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – November 14, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – November 7, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – October 31, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   Important Links: Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride Instagram Hmong Innovating Politics Instagram Hmong Innovating Politics Website   Transcript: Cheryl: Good evening, everyone. You are tuned in to APEX Express. I'm your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight is an AACRE night. What is AACRE might be asking. Comprised of 11 grassroots, social justice groups, the Asian Americans for civil rights and Equality Network– AACRE– leverages the power of its network to focus on longterm movement building and support for Asian Americans committed to the fight for social justice. Speaking of AACRE groups. APEX Express is proud to be apart of the AACRE Network.  Joining us for tonight's show from Yokuts also known as Fresno, california is my special, big hearted friend Shai Chang from Hmong Innovating Politics. Also known as HIP. Shai, do you mind introducing yourself? Who are you, who are your people, and where do you come from?  Shai Chang: Yes, thank you so much for having me on the show. My name is Shai pronouns are they and them. I'm located in Yokuts Valley, currently in Fresno, California. I'm actually working with Hmong Innovating Politics located both in Sacramento and Fresno. I'm in the Fresno. And officially, just recently in October, I got my name title changed to be the Trans and Queer Fresno Community Organizer. So I am so ecstatic to be doing the trans and queer work in the Central Valley, yeah, born and raised in Fresno, Hmong, Southeast Asian, and really, actually I was born in a house. The rest of my siblings were born in the hospital. We were actually, the reason why was because we were trying to go to the hospital and my dad was like, Oh, wait for me, wait for me, wait for me, and couldn't wait any longer. Cheryl: And then you just popped out. You couldn't wait any longer. Did your dad make it in time? Shai Chang: I think my dad made it in time, but only in time for us to come out.  Cheryl: I didn't know that about you, Shai, that you were a home birth. How many siblings do you have?  Shai Chang: I have five other siblings. We were all born one year apart. Honestly, like, growing up, I really loved the idea of, Oh, we're all born one year apart. It's so nice. My siblings were so close. And now I'm looking back, Oh my gosh, my mom. Oh  Cheryl: my gosh. are any of your siblings also trans or queer?  Shai Chang: No, um, one of them is queer, but, the rest of my family is, actually very progressive and a great ally to me. So I've been very privileged and blessed.  Cheryl: Do you think that's a common Hmong queer experience to have supportive and progressive parents?  Shai Chang: so I'm not actually out to my parents or my grandparents or my uncles or some of my aunts. I am out to my siblings and so I think it's very interesting and I'm still grappling along with that as well. I think there is internal work to be done. It's that both I think it's, this is a reality of some things. It's that outside of the community, I'm queer and trans and at home, I'm very much having to play a role. My dad is a shaman and so he does do, they do come from a lot more like traditional values and conservative values. And at the same time, they are progressive on things. I think that they understand racial issues. But not gender issues. So you can wear, for example, I would say like my aunt, she it's like progressive and the most conservative ways, so it's like. Oh yeah, I'm totally okay that you're gay, Shai, but if my kids wore earrings, that's too feminine.   Cheryl: Thanks for sharing that shy. It's sounds like you've had to navigate a lot of different spaces, also expectations.  I'm curious, what was it like growing up queer in Fresno?  Shai Chang: I think that it has really shaped me because I feel like I came into my queerness and my transness so late. I feel like I came into being who and knowing who I am or what I am so late into my life. It wasn't until I was much more exposed into the organizing work over in the Bay Area. And so obviously big props to Lavender Phoenix.  Cheryl: Love them. Shout out Lavender Phoenix.  Shai Chang: And just really seeing so many of the organizers really live and their truth and who they are. And I. And having to also trying to figure out what that means for myself as well. Also knowing that How many other like Hmong trans queer folks are also might be going through the same thing as well. And so there is a definitely a strong sense of unwelcome this or not even unwelcome this, but not the intentional welcome. Right. When we think of radical welcome. From Lavender Phoenix, there is a lack of radical welcomeness within our Hmong community, and so, especially for trans and queer folks, and it wasn't until just this year that there's a in the Hmong community, there's 18 clans, or our last names, and there's an organization over in the Midwest, over in Minnesota, Minneapolis that just then wrote a letter in Hmong talking about the recognition that, Hey we recognize that we have not been intentional in inviting like trans and queer people into our community. So like one, it was super validating and two, that's just like the bare minimum. Okay. They recognize it, but what did they do? Right. Nothing. And so, or, you know, for me I didn't really see much, but also that's so different. Like that, that lived experience over in Minnesota is so different from the lived experiences in California for our Hmong community. And yeah.  Cheryl: Yeah Shine you're bringing up so many things. You're so absolutely right. There is such a different between. Merely tolerating transness and queerness, such as you know, in the story you shared earlier but your aunt and her kid wearing earrings. And then also with the vagueness and The lack of action and accountability in the . Minneapolis letter. Versus the radical, welcoming. Of trans and queer folk, such as, is done in Lavender Phoenix, which. For folks who don't know is also an AACRE group. that organizes is around building trans and queer AAPI power in the bay area. And I also love. That you called in that, of course there are differences in the lived experiences for the Hmong community in Minneapolis. Versus California. Because I also think that that's super true to in the in lived experiences for trans and queer as in the bay, Area. You know, such as, what Lavender Phoenix does. Versus the transness and queerness that is experienced in the central valley, which is of course where a majority of Hmong Americans in California live. Which is also actually a great segue to talk about the amazing work that HIP does and the work that you lead with QHIP, which is for listeners who don't know. Is short for Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride. Do you mind telling us what QHIP is and what led to its fruition. Shai Chang: Yes, thank you so much. Back in 2018, I actually was, that's when Hmong Innovating Politics actually branched out to Fresno. And that's when I was like, Oh, I've heard about you all, like in the organizing work over in Sacramento. I will love to get involved. And literally that weekend that they came in Mytao one of the original organizers for, to, to branch out into Fresno, she actually messaged me, it's Hey, I have this application that's due on Sunday. It's Seeding Change. Can you apply for it? I was like, Yeah, sure, of course. It's Friday. Also, how did you get my number? Ha ha ha ha ha., and so, like, it was just a great She actually got my number through, like, different connections here and there, and then that's how she got my number, and then she contacted me, and she talked Yeah, and so, that's how I got involved with HIP, was through Seeding Change. I've already been trying to organize in the Fresno community around , Hmong and trans and queer issues, and, , Leadership has always, always been a very big issue. Just finding other trans and queer leaders, and I was very lucky, it was such a very strange time that one of my were One of my friends, um, friends now, but then, uh, actually it's like this other random person came into Fresno and was like, Hey, I just got back from, Texas, and I am in Fresno. Like, I was born and raised in Fresno, I moved away, came back, and wanted to organize around trans and queer issues. I was like, no way!  So, on top of that, Mytao, later in the summer, was able to organize to get us, funding, and so we got 3, 000 just to organize for trans and queer issues, and in the next two to three months, um, we got 20 people to start showing up. We met every single week. Wow! And then on top of that, we were hanging out for another two to three hours. So I honestly, we all use obviously like our own personal funding, our own like, like vehicles, transportation, pick it up folks just so that we can meet and really being housed in like HIP's office. And. To really honor HIP, we were also trying to think of our name for our own space because I think it came from actually like being, and I, I really also want to share that like quip, the reason I'm like, why QHIP? Why QHIP? Why not join any of the, like the trans and queer spaces? Let me be very clear about why not join any of the other gay spaces in Fresno? So, and,, Fresno historically has been a very white cis space. male gay space. And so that's really also we want to highlight that. There is like also trans spaces that just came more recently as well, Trans-E-Motion. But before that , we were actually then like, okay, let's go and be a part of these organizing spaces as like our little group, right? And we show up to these spaces and they're asking, what's your name? , who are you all? What's your name? Are you gay little Asian boys?  And so I share the stories. As to, like, how much it speaks volume to the microaggressions, the internal racism that exists, and as well as how much, like, work is done. Like, why we need this space so much, right? When we show up to these spaces, we are not feeling that sense of belonging, that radical welcoming. And so, Yeah, we just started organizing from there and then obviously we were being housed and so HIP was like, okay So do you want to spin off and do your own organizations? Who are you and What's your five year plan and the whole time we're like “What?!” I've never thought about a five year plan, you know, and got, yeah, that's her name. And also Katie Moua, who's working with us as our , program director, you know. And so, we finally actually just this year became a program under HIP. So originally we were like a support group. We were just holding space and we just hit our five year last year and after seeing so much transition and leadership,, we just know that for, sustainability is that we need to make sure that we're holding it somewhere and so HIP was able to hold that program space for us. And so that's just where and where we're at right now.  Cheryl: Thank you so much for sharing the origin storyof QHIP. It's really inspiring to meto hear how organizations come to be? And. All of the community effort and community members that came together, recognizing a need and supported each other through it all. It really shows the power of mutual care and collective organizing. We're going to take a quick music break, but there'll be more on the incredible organizing workbeing done by QHIP for trans and queer Hmong folk in the central valley when we return. Up next. We'll be listening to “GRLGNG” by Rocky Rivera. So stay tuned. We'll be right back.  Here's “GRLGNG” by Rocky Rivera.  And we're back. You're listening to apex express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley and also streaming online at kpfa.org. That last track was “GRLGNG” by Rocky Rivera. We're here with Shai chang lead organizer of Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride (QHIP). A program by Hmong Innovating Politics, also known as hip. So far Shai has shared some powerful, personal stories about growing up queer and trans in a more conservative central valley.  And how essential programs like QHIP are for helping trans and queer Hmong Americans. I thrive in such places which are often hard to find. We've learned about how QHIP. Came to be and how it was created by and for the community through effort and also through. I would say great courage. So Shai. Can you tell us a little bit more about the programming that QHIP does? Shai Chang: Thank you so much for asking. A lot of the work that we do is rooted in healing justice. when we first came together, we just knew that. There's so much trauma that we had. Um, so I, I say this because one, we were like, okay, like, should we open it up to, like, other Asian Pacific Islanders? Should we do like a Southeast Asian, queer, trans work? And then, I was like, let's look at the space we're in currently. Who is in here with us? Like, how can we say that we're a lot of the time, it's, I think it's frustrating that it's always like, API, API, right? And there's no other Pacific Islanders in this space. Um, so it's like to say that Hmong people are here and it's okay for us to focus on Hmong communities. On top of that, we have so much particular trauma that if we then invite other folks into the space and they have their own intersectional trauma, how can we also hold space for them when we're also then trying to figure out our own, like. issues. And so, uh, not realizing that these were like rooted in healing justice. We just knew that we just needed space for ourselves and to heal and, and heal in different ways. And so in one of those ways, like, how can we heal and also have fun? And one of the organizers around that has been One of the events we did was Sports Day. Um, I was like, okay, how does Sports Day relate to healing, you know? And it's like, of course it does, right? We know that many times, like, trans and queer folks are not allowed to have fun in sports, are not allowed to be queer enough, like, they're too queer, um, that they're not allowed to be Performing to mask, to fan, and like in queer, like in sports. And so, we know and we recognize that it's so important for us to actually be able to live in these spaces as well. For us to reclaim these opportunities for ourselves. And so, um, It has shown up in many different ways. And so every single, almost every year we, we do something like that together. And so, uh, we did one in Sacramento and they're all like, this is where the BIPOC people have been at. Uh, because there is like a queer and like sports, like, uh, outing that is over there, but it's always like predominantly white, and so when all of the people of color started showing up, I'm like, oh! Uh, and so it's so funny. It's so funny. Like, that we get to actually practice community, care, and love, and intentionality, and really finding space of joy for one another, especially If you want to like play volleyball, hit the ball back into a twerk, you know, like we've seen our Southeast Asian Filipinos, like Cheryl: I love that image of just like this pack of like Hmong queer and trans folk just like rolling up, you know, I just love that image so, so much. And I love that point too. Like what does sports have to do with queer being queer and trans? And it has so much. It starts in those like little things, those little sports outings, being able to hit a volleyball and go into a twerk. That's healing justice. Wow. That is so incredible. You mentioned that when QHIP first started, it was around 20 people. What would you say like the age demographic is? of the people in QHIP.  Shai Chang: So when we first started, no one was over 30.  We had folks from high school, and we had folks, um, in like, uh, like over 18, um, and, uh, no one was over 30. Yeah, so we had a very young group and we can just see how like hip has also adapted into that as well It's not like we have always been really young organizers and so When you were talking about the budding and the seedings like that's what we do We train and we right now we are wanting to bring up and train other trans and queer leaders that really also want to be a part of the space too because One, like, to be very honest and transparent, if I'm gone, Quint is gone. That's what I mean by the sustainability of leadership. Like, I'm the one who's holding this work right now. And because we have just recently expanded over to Sacramento to have Christine also hold that space, like, oh my god, Once I'm gone, it's gone, right? And so  so we actually Went um, we had a booth at the Hmong New Year's. It was a queer and trans booth It's super queer super trans and we were anticipating lots of pushback And so folks we actually just asked like our friends who I mean like I already didn't have like queer friends already And so we asked our friends to just come and be in the booth with us, come organize with us, and then words kind of spread out around that, like, oh, there's this thing, they're doing this thing, and so folks came and volunteered. And I need to share this story because, like, we were all anticipating people to come to our booth and push back. Um, we've, there's like Christian monk folks there have come and done push back in the past, but there has never been like a trans and queer booth. Like a Hmong trans queer booth and so folks, we have like a photo booth in the back and the way that you can take brief pictures is that you just signed the board that I support Hmong LBTQ and really there was so much overwhelming love and support for us that many of the times like our own like folks, our own trans and queer folks, they had to take a pause and like, yeah, Actually, I need to take a break, right? I think this overwhelming sense of love and care from community and so this is where it grew and this is where and how we grew and also knowing at the same time that like there's so much multiple layers in this conversation, I'm sorry. Um, so it's like One, there is so many overwhelming support, yes, and that's how many people came and started to know about us and started organizing along with us. And the other piece and part of it too is that right now and where I'm at now is that I'm trying to organize for trans and queer spaces for Hmong folks, and I'm really trying to invite community to come and be part of us, and at the same time, not seeing folks show up. Um, and so like when we had our organizing program, our 7, 8, 9 month long organizing program, first time this year, opening it up for like, community to apply and be part of, like, 4 folks applied, and they were all allies, um, and so I, yeah, I didn't want to take that away from them as well, and so these are the people that applied, and these are the people that like, I will be working with, right? And so when we went to the Pride Parade, and other, like, trans and queer Hmong folks showed up, and they're like, Oh, is this an organizing program? And I was like, Yeah, it is! And they're like, Oh, I should've applied! And I was like, Yeah, you should've! And so, We, Christina and I, we really had to sit in with that, and it's like, why is that? Why is that, like, a really challenging place? Um, and we really lean in back into that, like, in the Hmong community, there is such a lack of welcomeness. There is such a lack of belongingness, like, many times in the Fresno, and this is just, like, trans queer people in general, in the Central Valley, is that For you to be trans and queer, it's for you to move away from home. Um, go to the Bay Area, go to L. A. And so, um, in our name, Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, Intersectional from Kimberly Crenshaw, is really where we are highlighting that you can be queer and you can be Hmong. And Many of the times it's so hard for us to show up in like our own community because there's like so much layers of like anti blackness, like patriarchy, uh, lots of gender justice that needs to be done, transformative and healing justice that needs to be done and I appreciate Lambda Phoenix for being so bold and I'm also sitting over here. It's like how can I be bold and I think about, like, for us, like, we were already ostracized by our own community, some, many of the times, like, unwelcomed, and for us to then fight to be in our own community, it's such a big fight already, and then, like, folks would then welcome us, and then, okay, let's talk about police brutality. Right? How much of that would then also, um, be welcomed as well? And so really to be trans and queer is for us to be anti imperialist, anti capitalist, you know, anti, um, anti racism, right? And so Yeah, so like that's that's just so the realm that we're like like Hmong and trans queer folks are living in and so our next steps for our quip is for really us to build our sense of belonging. We're going to be launching our campaign Love is Love or Luya Lu um to really highlight um that that piece of belongingness within our Hmong and transqueer community that we do need to find a sense of belonging, that we don't need to be part of like our Hmong community to really find community, that we can have our own community and still be part Hmong and still be transqueer. Cheryl: I love that so much,, the I in quip intersectional is you can be queer and mom. And I think that is so brilliant. And I wonder the whole that also that piece you shared about how a lot of, you know, queer and trans, trans People of the Central Valley leave to go to larger cities, more liberal quote unquote spaces. I wonder, too, if that's part of the reason why there was low signups for your organizing program, because so much of the trans and queer among folk that are in quip are all really young and are still reliant on living in the same household as their family. Shai Chang: Yeah, thank you so much for highlighting that. Yes, that is so, so, so true. Um, I also really want to highlight that it's so hard on our femme and women folk, our transqueer femme and women folk, um, because in our experiences as a young person for them, they were the babysitters. Um, they were the caregiver and the caretaker of their family. And so many of the times it's that, you know, They could not join us in these particular spaces because they constantly had to ask for permission from their family just to be with us. Um, so, can I go? I was like, oh no, I need you to watch the house, or watch the babies, watch, watch your siblings. Um, I need you to take care of this, or X, Y, and Z, and so. It's a lot of, like, it's a lot of the patriarchy coming up in this multi layer, like, this multi layer level of oppression, multi layer level of, like, Experiences that Hmong and transqueer, , women and femme folks go through. And so really wanting to highlight that. Cheryl: So, of course, like I'm hearing the family dynamics, the patriarchy. What do you think are the other struggles that queer and trans Hmong youth currently face in Central California? Shai Chang: you know, the Central Valley is very poor., and so, lot of trans folks actually have a hard time in transition. There's only like one doctor that comes once in a long while that like really does affirmative care. And so we're trying to grow our affirmative care resource and our doctors list. And so now I think we've probably grown I think maybe like two or three in the Citra Valley. And I mean Central Valley from like Stockton to like Bakersfield, like there is no, like, it's hard to find affirmative care. And many of the times folks are, if they're wanting like gender affirming care, they have to go into the bigger cities. And so there has been in the past transportation. So obviously when we're doing like, it's, you know, Affirmative care surgery. It's a very, very big thing. And so transportation on top of like housing for rest is a very big thing as well. And so there was funding that folks have been organized to do transportation as well as housing to take care of them. What does what does aftercare look like? And so I think there's like those kind of layers like racism, Obviously, transphobia, , homophobia, and I think it just speaks to a lot, you know, about like the, there's like a lot of, and there is gender based violence in our community, quite a bit, right? When you think about patriarchy, of course, it's attached. I think in the media of the times, community needs to also see that patriarchy also impacts, patriarchy impacts all genders. Right. , it forces more, males and men to be more masculine, really pushing them away from what it means for them to actually have, like, quote unquote feelings, or being feminine, or, um, there's a lot of big drinking problem in our Hmong community as well, and so, there's lots of, like, over drinking and binge drinking, and so, yeah, there's also deeply rooted issues that are also, uh, showing up in the community as well. Cheryl: Wow, there's a lot. And it sounds like there's so much infrastructure and resources that are still, that still need to be developed. Central California is still developing their resources for trans and queer, especially trans and queer Hmong folk. My question then, Shai, because you, because I do agree, like if the moment you leave, QHIP is gone. How are you dealing? Because this is a lot of work. How do you deal with all of this responsibility? Shai Chang: I lean into hip. I have to. Um, to be very honest, I had a really hard time. I think last year, um, we had a really hard time when I was just like, I feel so alone. I went to this like conference. This was called creating change. It's their national, like LBGTQ conference and over in San Francisco and like February, July and went to that conference and then came back home. I was like the only trans, you know, I was the only person on the train back home. Right? And so it feels so isolating. It feels so alone sometimes. And I brought this up to HIP and we all just cried and we're like, This is not okay, right? And so that's when we started to see what programming for quip actually looks like and recognizing that something needs to happen. We need to build more. And so I also really want to highlight that it takes time and it takes It takes time and commitment to want to build with people. Um, and we were able to really build space for our trans and queer community here because we were so committed to wanting to build something here. Um, and so it is very alone, like, and also it's really to recognize that we are not alone. Um, I think Lambda Phoenix has done such a great job in really being able to model what that means and what that looks like. And literally asking for help. Um, it's not to say that I'm not good at delegating. It's not to say I'm not good at delegating. I'm just really bad at breaking down, like, these roles and responsibilities for me to then Invite other folks in to also to support me to help, you know, to make the movement go and grow together. And we're so used to doing this work alone. I'm so used to doing this work alone that I feel like I have to do everything together. I have to be the creative artist, the social media campaign manager. The comms manager, coalition building, I, I feel like I have to be then like the, the organizer, the program manager, the development, the HR, um, the supervisor, and, and at the same time as a, you know, not as a young person anymore, but like young enough still 29, is that I'm still also learning what organizing is and what organizing means. And so, um, it means all of us. It needs all of us. Cheryl: That's actually such an important dimension too, because as , you're all developing this in the works, you're also learning along the way. , I guess maybe to end our conversation. I want to know, because you bring up the welcomeness, the radical welcomeness you've learned from Lavender Phoenix and how Revolutionary that has been in your praxis of trans and queer organizing for Hmong folk. What does radical welcoming look like for you for quip moving forward in the next couple of years? What would you want it to look like? Shai Chang: What it will look like for quip is that Um, next year we're going to be launching a campaign and then continuing the Love is Love or Lu is Lu Ya Lu campaign and really highlighting the sense of belonging that needs to be built up in our Hmong community. Um, as much as we're fighting for trans justice, racial justice, and gender justice, and trans queer justice, and like, those are like the big words, and all of those things, and what does that mean? And it starts at the small, it starts at the small, like, if we don't even feel that sense of belonging within our own community, if we don't even feel that sense of belonging within our own selves, small like the sports day, it's not going to actually build in that piece of justice in the long term. And so it's so important that, um, we build in that radical welcomeness through all layers. And it can look very different. It doesn't have to be like, Oh, welcome. Verbatim welcome. This means that we are doing it every single time at every single point, at every single way. It looks like having dinners. Um, it looks like having fun. It looks like karaoke. It looks like listening to each other's story, passion mic, open mic nights, poetry slams, and sports days, and Really going out to vote together. It really looks and shines in all the different ways and really being in coalition with one another is how we're going to get there and build there. And so, yeah,  Cheryl: that was the perfect answer, Adrian Murray Brown writes about this all the time. Small is all. Radical welcoming in all areas of this work. I think that's just so beautiful.  We are actually going to take another music break. But learn how to plug into quips work when we get back. So don't go anywhere.  Up next is taking names by Rocky Ibarra. And we're back. You are tuned in to apex express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3. KPMB in Berkeley and online@kpfa.work. You were just listening to you taking names by Rocky Berra. Before we close off the show shy. Do you mind letting our listeners know how they can stay in touch with Quip and learn about all of your upcoming programming? Shai Chang: Yeah, I would say follow us on our social media, Facebook and Instagram. That's a great place to begin, um, and continue to share and highlight us. , we are trying to post more. And you can follow us at qhip. ca at qhip. ca or quip. california. ca. Yeah, um, I think that's a great place to begin and then you all always can message me there. Um, yes.  Cheryl: Thank you shy. All of those links to equip socials we'll be linked in our show notes. And so before we close off for the night, do you have any last words, you'd like to share to any trans. Queer, mung folk who might be listening right now.  Shai Chang: Yes. Um, lean into your leadership. Lean into it. I know that you're so scared of, like, wanting to be in a leader because it feels like there's so much responsibility that comes with it. And know that you are not alone. In it. You are not alone in this leadership. You are never alone. There's so much people who have paved the way and so much people who are still here with us today. And so, I am here and we can learn and lean into each other and really actually create spaces of love. Like, how do we lean into love and not into our leadership? Right? And so, you don't have to feel like you are leaning into your leadership alone. But leaning into community and leaning into love. Cheryl: Thanks, everyone. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time. Cheryl Truong: Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – October 24, 2024 – Trans & Queer Hmong Rise: Organizing in Central California appeared first on KPFA.

Listen to our Fall South Asian Cinema special edition of APEX Express! On tonight's show, we celebrate South Asian cinema – 3rdi Film Fest – the bay area's annual South Asian film festival is back again with some stellar programming and to spark some provocative conversations. In a thought-provoking discussion, producer Preeti Mangala Shekar sits down in conversation with musician Robin Sukhadia and delves into the intricate and multifaceted portrayal of Indian nationalism as presented in two of the most iconic films in contemporary Indian cinema: Lagaan and RRR. While both films are set against the backdrop of British colonial rule, they offer sharply contrasting visions of how the Indian struggle for independence is portrayed More about this discussion happening this weekend at 3rdi here. We also highlight lesbian film maker Kirthi Nath on her new film, Paramita, about queer healer and writer Prajna Paramita Choudhary. Paramita is a quiet and profound exploration about the transformational power of mindfulness and how coming out can inspire healing across generations. The film invites viewers into the spiritual life of Prajna Paramita Choudhury, an Oakland-based mindfulness teacher and acupuncturist, as she comes out to her traditional Bangladeshi mother. Buddhist practices, meditation, and nature support Prajna on a journey of intergenerational healing. The post APEX Express – October 17, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Return is the theme for APEX Express as Host Miko Lee talks with artists from  APAture, Kearny Street Workshops annual celebration of emerging artists from the Bay Area. Miko also speaks with exiled Hong Kong activist Nathan Law about the new documentary film “Who's Afraid of Nathan Law.” Special Thanks to Jose Ng for insight into the Hong Kong movement for democracy. For more information about the subjects in tonight's show: APAture, KSW – October 13 to November 9th venues throughout the Bay Area Jalena Keane-Lee and her film: Standing Above the Clouds playing October 12 Mill Valley Film Festival October 22 Roxie Cinema – APAture Ian Santillano playing October 13, DNA Lounge – APAture Kim Requesto performing November 3, Joe Goode Anex – APAture Who's Afraid of Nathan Law playing on POV   Return Show Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Miko Lee: [00:00:38] Welcome to Apex Express. I'm your host Miko Lee and tonight our subject is return, which is the theme of the 25th annual APAture Kearny Street Workshop Annual Festival. It's running October 13th through November 9th, and there's going to be six showcases in venues across San Francisco. We're going to put a link in our show notes at kpfa.com backslash program apex. We're going to hear from three of the featured artists; filmmaker, Jalena Keane-Lee, dancer, Kim Requesto, and musician, Ian Santillano. Then we speak with someone who cannot return to his Homeland, exiled Hong Kong activist, Nathan Law. First off, we're going to check in with my usual co-host as PowerLeeGirls and my always daughter, filmmaker Jalena Keane-Lee. Good evening and welcome to Apex Express. Tonight On Apex Express, we're talking with my daughter, Jalena Keane-Lee, and usual co host, but tonight we're going to be talking with Jalena as a filmmaker. Welcome, Jalena, to Apex Express as a guest.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:01:48] Thank you so much for having me.   Miko Lee: [00:01:50] And I would like to talk with you about APAture, Kearny Street Workshop's annual festival. This year, you're one of several artists that are getting a showcase. The theme for this year is around Return. Can you tell us what return means to you and what you will be presenting at APAture?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:02:11] Yes, so the theme for Kearny Street Workshop's APAture festival this year is Return and I am the featured artist for the film showcase, which is such an honor and I'm really excited about that. And I've screened previous work there in the past—short films, but it was really yeah, such an honor and privilege to be asked to be the featured artist this year. And I'll be playing my first feature documentary, which is called Standing Above the Clouds. And it follows native Hawai'ian mother-daughter activists that are standing to protect their sacred mountain called Mauna Kea from the building of a massive 30 meter telescope. And the film chronicles intergenerational healing and how to build and sustain a movement. And so I hope people come to see it and it will also be playing with a series of short films from other Asian American and Pacific Islander filmmakers. And the film showcase is October 22nd at 6 PM at the Roxy Theater in the Mission. To me, the theme of return, it's, it reminds me a lot of, I think last year's theme too, which I think was homecoming. And just thinking about, you know, returning to yourself, returning to your ancestors, returning to your sacred land. Standing Above the Clouds is all about the movement to protect Mauna Kea, which is one of the most sacred places in all of Oceania. And the highest peak in the world from the seafloor. And the summit of the mountain stands at 14,000 feet and it's also tied to Native Hawai'ian genealogy and seen as the ancestor of the people. And so the film is really all about that place that you want to return to, that place that represents, you know, home and spirituality and is an anchor and a training ground and a teacher and a leader and so many other things that, you know, our sacred places are and that they teach us. And really about, you know, protecting that space and making sure that that's a place that future generations will be able to return to. And also reflecting and processing all the ways and all the times that you have returned there and what that has taught you and brought into your life.   Miko Lee: [00:04:26] So this festival runs for multiple weeks. It actually is at the Roxy and at DNA Lounge and at the Joe Goode Annex and at Arc Gallery and Studios. We're also in the show featuring Kim Requesto, who is one of the performing artists that's featured, and then music by, the musical guest, which is Ian Santillano. And Jalena, tell me about, are you getting a chance to communicate with all the other artists and to be able to work with the other artists that are part of this festival?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:04:58] It's the 25th year of the APAture Festival and there's a lot of really cool events for artists. I know they had a kind of orientation event and they had headshot opportunity to like get your headshot taken there. I unfortunately was out of town, so I was not able to make it and have that opportunity to mix and mingle with the other artists. But I'm excited to go to some of the events, as they happen. And there's a bunch of different showcases for, like, each different discipline. Mine is film, and then there's visual arts, music, performing arts, I believe.   Miko Lee: [00:05:33] Were you at Kearny Street Workshop last year as well? You were part of APAture last year as well.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:05:38] Yes, I was.   Miko Lee: [00:05:40] How many years have you participated?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:05:43] I think I've participated three years, but yeah, as I said before, this is my first time being a featured artist, so that's very special. And I know it's the 25th year of the APAture Arts Showcase, and that it's the oldest running Asian American arts showcase in the US.   Miko Lee: [00:06:03] And if folks aren't able to make this amazing APAture event, where else can they see your film Standing Above the Clouds?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:06:10] My film will also be available through the Mill Valley Film Festival on October 12th, and it's going to play at the San Rafael Film Center at 3pm on the 12th, and then I'll also be leading a workshop on October 19th. It's a teen documentary filmmaking and activism workshop, which should be really fun. And that's with SF Film, and we'll be at their location, Filmhouse, on, yeah, October 19th. And we should be having more screenings coming up, so if you're interested in, you know, following along with the film, you can find us at Standing Above the Clouds on Instagram and Facebook, and standingabovetheclouds.com. And we'll post our screenings and different opportunities. You can also request a screening for your organization or group or school. And we'll be implementing our screening tour and impact plans in the next few years as well. And you can follow me at Jalena.KL on Instagram and other platforms as well and I post about it too. And you can also follow at Protect Mauna Kea, if you want to keep up to date with the movement to protect Mauna Kea. And there is a petition, a change.org petition to sign to push for the stopping of the telescope, which is currently still trying to be built, even though there has been over a decade of indigenous resistance and resistance that we see as successful because they have been able to stall the telescope up until this point. But yes, there's a change.org petition that you can sign that is @protectmaunakea and also @standingabovetheclouds in both of their linkinbios.   Miko Lee: [00:07:46] Thank you. And we'll put links to all of those in the show notes for Apex Express. So I know that you've been touring with the film to different cities and indeed different countries. And I'm wondering if you have felt a different reception based on the places you've been to from Toronto to Seattle to Los Angeles. What has been, what has stood out to you as you've toured this film to different locations?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:08:06] Yeah, it's been such a blessing to be able to bring the film across the world. And I think we're really excited to we're bringing the film home to Hawai'i with the Hawai'i International Film Festival, and then also home to the Bay Area with APAture and Mill Valley. So it's really nice to have this, you know, homecoming and return, so to speak, to the places where, you know, the film is from. And touring it around, I think it's been really beautiful just seeing all the like resonance and the connections across other lines of difference with different activists, different local activists, whether it is in Toronto, or Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, or Seattle, And one thing that has been a really beautiful reflection from audiences is that the film is a representation of hope and that, you know, it's a realistic portrait of organizing and movement building, which certainly is not, you know, always glamorous or easy, but one that shows the beauty of the struggle and the beauty of being in community and pushing towards something and how being in movement spaces, you know, can shape and heal and revive different parts of who you are.   Miko Lee: [00:09:16] Can you talk a little bit about what healing means to you in relationship with social justice work?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:09:22] Standing Above the Clouds, it is about, you know, healing. And Havane, who's one of the main protagonists of the film, she has a really great line in the film, that is we don't just have to heal from this work, we heal through it too. And I think that speaks a lot to what it means to heal in movement spaces and part of the intergenerational healing that we show in the film is, you know, our, our parents generation, and this kind of older generation of women who really paved the way, and who didn't have the opportunity to really take breaks or care for themselves and their own bodies, oftentimes, and there just wasn't really any other option or it wasn't really a choice. And in the film we can see passing down to the next generation and wanting people to be able to have the opportunity to care for themselves and to, you know, have boundaries around their time and their energy and show up in these spaces when they feel completely ready and that being something that the kind of mother generation wants to pass down to the younger generation and also something that the younger generation is able to point out. In the older generation and see for themselves and I think that really plays into movement sustainability and healing is such an important part of creating movements that can be sustainable and that won't just burn people out and then kind of, you know, fizzle and fall away. So making sure that we have the space to heal and in all the different ways, like through tears, through laughter, through joy. I think is such an important part and also letting movements and work for social justice heal us and have, you know, a positive impact on us and teach us about ourselves.   Miko Lee: [00:11:19] Thank you for sharing that. I just finished reading the amazing Healing Justice Lineages book by Erica Woodard and Cara Page, and you and I just went to see Cara's exhibit about the impact of the medical industrial complex. And one of the things both Cara and Erica talk about in the book is ancestral technologies and the impact that ancestral technologies can have on healing us and the next generation. And I resonated with that so much being the mother age obviously of you, but also of the women in Standing Above the Clouds. And I'm wondering if you have thoughts on ancestral technologies that you grew up with, or that you felt like you learned from being involved with this filmmaking process for so long.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:12:08] That's a really, ooh that's such an interesting point. I think in the film, the ancestral technology that comes to mind immediately is oli or chanting, and that is like, you know, an ancient Hawai'ian way of recording knowledge and passing down information and also praying. And, in the film, it's talked about in a few different places, how that is an ancient technology and how we only know the things that we know today, because someone passed it down orally as an oli or as a chant. And a really, a really beautiful thing about the process of making the film was being able to, to witness that and also to learn oli myself, and also to learn that Havane and Auntie Pua, who are two of the main protagonists in the film, they both write a lot of oli too. So it's an ancestral technology that's still very much alive and breathing in the present day. And I think that's so beautiful and that yeah, I hope with, you know, all of our different ancestral technologies that we access and learn about at different times that we also can see them as things that are like ever changing and kept current in the present.   Miko Lee: [00:13:29] And what would you like people to walk away with after seeing Standing Above the Clouds?   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:13:34] I want people to walk away feeling and believing that collective liberation is possible. And that the worlds that we want to create that are centered on care, that don't discriminate based on, you know, any lines of difference, are possible. And it's our responsibility to enact those worlds and protect the things that are sacred to us and important to us. And I want people to walk away thinking about, you know, their own mom and thinking about the importance of sisterhood and community. And I want people to walk away wanting to call their best friend or their mom or reconnect with someone and talk about how it made them feel and what they want to do and what they want to stand for in their own communities. Yeah, I also want people to walk away, you know, fired up about protecting Mauna Kea and other sacred places and signing the petition to stop the 30 meter telescope, which we'll link in the show notes.   Miko Lee: [00:14:44] Thank you so much for joining us.   Next up, listen to APAture feature musician, Ian Santillano. Ian is a Filipino American singer songwriter multi-instrumentalist and producer from Hayward, California. So check out his song, “End of the Earf.”   MUSIC   That was APAture featured musician Ian Santillano with “End of the Earf.”  Now let's check in with dancer Kim Requesto. Kim, welcome to Apex Express.   Kim Requesto: [00:18:12] Hi Miko, thank you so much for having me.   Miko Lee: [00:18:20] I'm starting first with my question I love asking all people: Kim, tell me about who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Kim Requesto: [00:18:26] I was born in the Philippines and I immigrated to the US when I was three years old, but my entire life has been in the Bay Area. A lot of it has been informed by my family and what we've brought over from the Philippines, and that is a lot of dance and specifically Philippine folk dance, because both of my parents were actually dancers. I continue to share Philippine folkloric dance. And I've gotten deeper into that practice by doing research with different indigenous communities in the Philippines. My legacy, I feel, has expanded beyond just the stories of my family and the stories that I come from, but also, the dances and music and culture of the different indigenous communities that I've created connections and relationships with in the Philippines. And then of course, how I've been able to share that with the community here in the Bay Area, and also in the diaspora.   Miko Lee: [00:19:32] Thank you. Kim, you're a multidisciplinary artist. I know you do dance and photography and music and sharing this cultural traditions. Can you tell us a little bit about what you'll be sharing during APAture?   Kim Requesto: [00:19:45] Yes, of course. So what I hope to share during APAture is more of my performance work. Showcasing movement that I've learned while doing research in the Philippines and honing in on Philippine dance and the various traditional dance styles from the different communities in the Philippines. But also, a lot of my work is also involving my experience as someone who's grown up in the Bay area. The work that I'm presenting is really around my experience as a Filipinx American and sharing that through movement that is not just traditional, not necessarily contemporary, but a mixture and a fusion of both. I also do hope to share specifically traditional movement, just because to honor the people I've worked with in the Philippines they requested, you know, before people see this fusion part, it's important that they know what the traditional part looks like as well. I'm really excited to share dance and also some music and I'm part of the Performing Diaspora residency at CounterPulse so I'll be previewing a small work in progress that'll be showcased in December. But I'm really looking forward to just sharing movement with others, and also sharing the stage with the other artists who's part of the festival.   Miko Lee: [00:21:09] I love that. I used to study traditional Japanese noh and kyogen, and I remember one of the things that the elders used to talk about is you're not allowed to derivate from the form until you have the traditional forms down absolutely and understand what they are in your bones. And I feel like that's what your elders are saying, too. Showcase the traditional work so that the fusion work makes sense to other folks.   Kim Requesto: [00:21:34] Mhmm. And it's also, I think, just to honor the cultures back in the Philippines, just to honor them as well.  Because within, in my work, I do feel that it's important that there's a way for me to also uplift what they've taught me and then not just like what I've been doing. [Laughs] So yeah, I guess similar to, to what your elders said too, or I guess in this sense, both of our elders.   Miko Lee: [00:22:02] Yeah, I'm wondering how this fits with the theme of APAture this year, which is Return. Kearny Street Workshop says, from the Palestinian right to return, the call for the indigenous land back movement, the various migrant histories and struggles for justice in our Pacific Islander and Asian communities, and the returns we face in our personal lives. So what does return mean to you? And how is this going to showcase in the work that you're presenting?   Kim Requesto: [00:22:28] For myself, returning means finding our truth. At least to me in this present day and age [laughs] of my life, it's really finding that truth or finding our truth and being able to also share and connect with others. The theme of returning also is being able to connect and understand, not just the histories that we've experienced, but also the histories that our bodies have experienced. I guess the way we'll be seeing it in what I'm going to be sharing with everyone is really looking through the lens of movement and how I fuse my experiences as someone who is Filipino, but also who is positioned here in the Bay Area. And being able to also find my truth in that movement, because even though a lot of the movement I'll be showcasing is from the southern part of the Philippines, I'm sharing it here in the Bay Area. And also to fuse it with my experience as someone who has grown up in San Francisco. There's a different positionalities in that. My movement is also different. I think in that idea of fusion and in the idea of also learning traditional movement, but also understanding my positionality and my body and my identity and fusing that together. It's the idea of finding, going back to finding my truth and you know, for me, it's like finding that in movement.   Miko Lee: [00:24:01] Thank you so much. My last question is, what are you reading, watching, or listening to? Is there something that is sparking your imagination right now?   Kim Requesto: [00:24:11] What I'm listening to, it's a lot of like melodic, soft, instrumental music. I'm back at a period of wanting to listen to jazz or to even like classical music. And it's just been helping me breathe and I think breathing, being able to find rest, being able to find like calm. Especially since I think for my personal life, I'm getting busy. Being able to rest gives me a lot of like opportunity to be creative after I've rested. So yeah. I think listening to music that makes me happy has been really great for me finding calmness and happiness. If I had to name an artist, it would be Olivia Dean grooves. Yes.   Miko Lee: [00:25:01] Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add?   Kim Requesto: [00:25:04] I'm just really looking forward to APAture this year and seeing everything from all the different artists and disciplines. I think having a space in APAture with Kearny Street Workshop and just being able to continue to share art with, like, the community. The greater Bay Area community is such a privilege because it really does feel like a place where people can connect with other artists and also audience members, and I'm just really thankful to APAture and to KSW and also just thank you, Miko, for talking with me.   Miko Lee: [00:25:37] Thanks so much. I look forward to seeing your work at APAture this year. Thanks, Kim.   Kim Requesto: [00:25:42] Thanks, Miko.   Miko Lee: [00:25:43] You're listening to apex express on 94.1, KPFA Berkeley, 89.3, KPF B in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Once again, we hear from APAture featured musician Ian Ian Santillano with “Movin' Nowhere.”   MUSIC   That was APAture featured musician Ian Santillano with “Movin' Nowhere.” Finally tonight, I speak with the person who is unable to return to his Homeland, Hong Kong activist, Nathan Law. And I also speak with filmmaker Joe Piscatella. Nathan Law was one of the student leaders during the 79 day Umbrella Movement in 2014. He is also the founder and former chair of Demosisto a new political party derived from the 2014 protests. And now he is an exile in London. I speak with both Nathan Law and documentary filmmaker, Joe Piscatella. Today we're speaking about the documentary film Who's Afraid of Nathan Law, and I'm so thrilled that we have with us both the filmmaker and Nathan Law himself. So Nathan, I want to start with you. First off, this is a question I ask many guests. Can you please tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Nathan Law: [00:31:26] Yeah, thank you so much for the invitation, Miko. This movie is about the struggle of Hong Kong's democratic movement. As we all know, there's been decades of the Hong Kong democratic movement, in which we fight for the right to elect our leaders and universal suffrage. And this is deeply embedded into our culture because we often see Hong Kong as somewhere the East meets the West. The East is of course, the Chinese heritage, our culture, our languages. But, the Western part is that there's a big part of it that's about freedom, liberty, and the democratic way of life. So, the fight for democracy in Hong Kong has been deeply ingrained in our culture and becomes essential part of who we are. So this movie is about my story, but it's also a reflection of the way of life of Hong Kong people and what are the struggles and difficulties that they've been through and how the city of Hong Kong is being demolished by the authoritarian regime, Chinese Communist Party.   Miko Lee: [00:32:29] Nathan thanks so much. I love that you gave a little blip about what the film is about, which is powerful. I was lucky to have a chance to be able to see it, but Nathan, I'm wondering about you personally, who are your people and for you, what do you carry? Like, what's your earliest memory of social justice?   Nathan Law: [00:32:47] For me, I grew up in Hong Kong, but I was born in mainland China. So I moved to Hong Kong when I was six. I lived in the most blue collar neighborhood. I lived in public housing. My father was a construction worker and my mother was a cleaner. So when I grew up, I was not taught about social justice or democracy. My parents had the mentality that I call refugee mentality, which they only want their kids to get into a good school and get a good job and don't rock the boat. So I've not been encouraged to do anything that I'm currently doing. But, in my high school, I had a political enlightenment moment, which inspired me to get into the arena of activism in college. So when I was in high school, I learned about Liu Xiaobo the Chinese human rights activist who got the Nobel Peace Prize in 2010, and the stories of Tiananmen Massacre, which was a tragedy in 1989 when there were so many workers and students, they fought for China's democracy, and then they were brutally massacred, and there were hundreds to thousands of people died because of the crackdown. So all these moments make me feel like, as a college student and as a half intellectual, I had responsibility to engage in social affairs and be involved in social activism. So that was the start of my story and the people, my people, certainly people of Hong Kong and those people who have the pursuit of freedom and democracy.   Miko Lee: [00:34:33] Thanks, Nathan. And filmmaker Joe Piscatella, can you tell us how you got the first inspiration to create this documentary around the Umbrella Movement and around Nathan?   Joe Piscatella: [00:34:44] Sure. So, in 2017 my team and I made a film prior to this called Joshua: Teenager vs. Superpower and that film documents the rise of Joshua Wong in the national education movement and then through the Umbrella movement and that film won Sundance in 2017 and is still currently on Netflix. And when we were looking to do our next film we realized one, the story of Hong Kong was, was continuing. There was more story to tell as the 2019 anti extradition protests were happening, and we wanted to be able to tell that story until the next chapter. And we also were so impressed. When we were making the Joshua Wong film, we were so impressed with Nathan. We were moved by his story, we were moved by his passion, we were all inspired by what he was doing. And we realized, hey, Nathan has a phenomenal story to tell in his own right. Let's tell the story of Hong Kong through the lens of Nathan Law.   Miko Lee: [00:35:48] Thank you. And Nathan, what was the decision making factor that you decided to go along with being part of this documentary film?   Nathan Law: [00:35:58] First of all, Joe and I and the other film crew, we had a connection when the Joshua Wong documentary, uh, was being produced. So I had already had the opportunity to work with them. I think, for the team, they're not only just producing, like, a documentary, But they genuinely do care about human rights and the story of Hong Kong and the struggles. So I think that gave a huge confidence to me and my fellow Hong Kong activists that they're definitely going to tell a story that make more people to understand what we are struggling and the fight for democracy. So I think this is a great collaboration and I think this documentary encapsulates past 10 years of my life and pretty much, the struggles to democracy and I think that that has a lot of reflection on it, but also like a lot of Hong Kong people would echo what was being covered in the documentary, because my life is pretty much also the lives of many other Hong Kong people being through all these big times, democratic struggles and ending up needing to leave their hometown and to resettle in somewhere else.   Miko Lee: [00:37:14] Thank you. It's really enlightening, especially for someone like me who is fifth generation Chinese American, does not speak Chinese, and it's very hard to actually get any kind of, you know, quote unquote, accurate information about what's happening in Hong Kong and the activist movement. How would you suggest people get accurate news of what's happening in Hong Kong?   Nathan Law: [00:37:37] For now, it's extremely difficult because the press freedom in Hong Kong is being squashed. There have been a multiple actions taken by the government that they disbanded, the most free and crowd sourced and critical news outlets to the Chinese regime. And for now, most of the media in Hong Kong have to follow the orders of the government and only express certain point of view that do not upset Beijing. So we don't have much room, but still we have some very small independent media that they can still operate with a very limited resources, for example, Hong Kong Free Press. This is one channel that we can get more impartial news. But at the end of the day, there has been a vacuum of independent journalism, and that is in, like, intentionally made by the government because the government doesn't want information to be circulated. They want to control the narratives and the information that people know. And by controlling it, they can effectively push forward the propaganda. So that is a predicament of Hong Kong people. And we do want more genuine independent journalism, but the reality of Hong Kong doesn't allow.   Miko Lee: [00:39:04] And Joe, how is this film being released in Asia? What's the reception to this film in Asia?   Joe Piscatella: [00:39:12] The film has not been released yet in Asia. it is about to, it actually premieres tonight, on PBS, on, POV on PBS, and then it'll stream at pbs.org/POV for the foreseeable future. So I have not gotten what the reaction is yet in Asia to this film.   Miko Lee: [00:39:33] Okay, we'll have to wait and see. It is exciting that people can have easy access to be able to see the film on public broadcasting, at least in the United States, and we'll wait and see what happens in Asia. Nathan, you are now, with Political Asylum living in London, and I'm wondering how you practice activism there in Hong Kong when you are living in London.   Nathan Law: [00:39:56] When the political crackdown in Hong Kong took place. The activism in the diaspora community becomes much more important because we can say something that you cannot say in Hong Kong and we can raise awareness by interacting with foreign government officials and international NGOs. If you do it in Hong Kong under the restriction of the national security law now, by meeting, for example, a congressman in the US, you can easily be incarcerated and be sentenced to years of imprisonment in Hong Kong. That is how strict the political sentiment there. And also if you speak about critical things towards the government or express supportive statement to the 2019, protest, you will also be targeted, sentenced, and maybe ended up in months or years in the prison. So we've had all these court cases where people only do peaceful advocacy work without inciting violence or committing violence, but they are being thrown to jail because of speech. And it's common to have speech crime in Hong Kong. So the diaspora community shoulders certain responsibility to speak out all those demands and, and the push for Hong Kong and China's democracy. So for me, in London, there's been a growing population of Hong Kong people because of the fact that people voted with their feet, there has been a exodus of Hong Kong people for now that's already been more than 200,000 of them that have come to the UK because of the worsening liberty situation in Hong Kong. And with that many amounts of people we have a lot of community and cultural events. One of the biggest goal is to preserve the story and the history and the identity of Hong Kong people, which is being erased in Hong Kong actively by the government.   Miko Lee: [00:42:02] And what's going on with the Umbrella Movement now? Like I said, it's very hard for us outside of your film to get information about what is happening right now. Can you give us an update?   Nathan Law: [00:42:14] Yeah, the Umbrella Movement was the occupation movement 10 years ago in pursuit for democracy. It's been 10 years, but I think its legacy is still impacting Hong Kong. It's the very first civil disobedience movement in a massive scale in Hong Kong. There were hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong people camping in the BCS runway in order to fight for a free and democratic society. Fast forward five years ago, there was a big, anti extradition law protest in Hong Kong in 2019 to 2020. It was the latest big uprising of Hong Kong people where you encounter much more ferocious and militant protests. And of course, it triggered a series of response from the government, which includes the implementation of the national security law, which in effect curtailed the city's freedom and civil society. So, it's been 10 years. We had more optimistic outlook of Hong Kong 10 years ago. But for now, the situation in Hong Kong is really bad, as I mentioned. Speech crime is in place, civil liberties and individual freedoms are being heavily restricted, civil society is disbanded. Some of the interviewees in the documentary, including my dearest friend, Joshua Wong, and Gwyneth Ho, they are now being in jail for more than three and a half years just because of joining a primary election, which is the thing that all democratic countries do, but in Hong Kong, it becomes a crime. And they are expecting to be sentenced, at the end of this year, to up to five to ten years of imprisonment just because they do, they do the exact same thing that other politicians in democratic countries do. So this is a really sad reality that we've put up so much effort, so much sacrifices to the democratic movement, but for now, as the Chinese regime is just so powerful. So it's difficult for us to get some progress in our democracy.   Miko Lee: [00:44:32] Is there anything that folks over here that believe and want to support the movement? Is there anything that we can do to help support the folks that are incarcerated or support the movement?   Nathan Law: [00:44:44] First of all, attention and support is really important. So by spreading words of the theme or the current situation of Hong Kong, it helps a lot. And of course we need more representative in the hill to push over Hong Kong agenda and there are a few bills about advancing Hong Kong's advocacy in the hill that's being discussed. Those are the things that we can write to our representative and ask them for support. But at the end of the day, it's also that the struggle of Hong Kong is a puzzle, a piece of puzzle in a broad picture of the struggles against authoritarianism and autocracy. We've been through a decade or two of democratic decline around the world and Hong Kong was part of it. So one thing to raise awareness of the issue of Hong Kong is also to protect your democracy. We are in an election year and you should do your homework, be educated, and be decided to come out to vote. This is an act of safeguarding our democracy.   Miko Lee: [00:45:52] And from your perspective as a Hong Kong person who's now living in London, do you have thoughts on the upcoming American presidential campaign?   Nathan Law: [00:46:03] Well, of course, this is a particularly important, election as the world has been, in like a chaotic situation as we've seen the warfare in Ukraine, in Gaza, and also all the political crackdowns in Hong Kong and around China, and also the threat to Taiwan. So for me, as a person who dedicated myself into the fight for human rights and democracy, definitely, I do hope that people can, American people can elect someone who upholds the values that we share and is very determined to, to support Taiwan and the struggle of Hong Kong. So that would be my parameter when it comes to the US election, but at the end of the day, I'm not a US citizen, so I don't really have a stake in this. campaign. But, yeah, I think we we need a leader that that can lead the free world and to do good things   Miko Lee: [00:47:06] And Nathan I know as an activist as a leader, you've gotten a lot of attention. And I know that there have been personal attacks against you for both yourself and people that are close to you, including your family members. How do you persevere through that?   Nathan Law: [00:47:26] It's difficult to cope with the harms that that's exerted, not only to you, but to your family, because they actually have nothing to do with everything I do. This collective punishment is evil, and it's intentionally used to hurt you. So it's difficult to persevere and navigate myself in these attacks, including personal attacks and also collective punishment to my family and my former colleagues. So, yeah, I think for me, it takes a lot of time to digest and to find a way to balance it. And it's not easy. One thing that I think is great to be portrayed in the film is that for us, we are activists, we are leaders, but we're not, we're not invincible. We're not without any pains and struggles. So as an activist, I think most of my time is actually being used to cope with anxiety, cope with fear, and how I can maintain as mentally healthy as possible in these political storms.   Miko Lee: [00:49:04] And how do you do that?   Nathan Law: [00:49:05] It's not easy, yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:49:06] How do you do that, Nathan? How do you cope with the anxiety and the fear? What's do you have a process that helps you?   Nathan Law: [00:49:16] I think first of all, you have to recognize that is it's normal to have these emotions. This these are definitely emotions that disturb your lives, your work, but they're normal because you are situated in an extraordinary situation and people from all corners, they want a piece of you or they want to attack you to achieve their purpose. And I think as long as you recognize it, as you, as, as long as you know that you are suffering from it, first of all, having a support group is really important for those people who understand who you are and who support you unconditionally, and also seeking professional help, no matter if it's a therapist or a psychiatrist, those who can listen to you and, and just try out. I don't think there is a one set of measures that fit for all, and that there is such a rich combination of how you can deal with anxiety and pressure. But I think the very first thing is you, you have to recognize that it's normal to have these emotion. You need to seek help and you need to try them out.  Otherwise, it's difficult for the others to help you, and those who love you would also be hurt, seeing you suffering from all these negative emotions.   Miko Lee: [00:50:47] Thank you for sharing. My last question for you, Nathan, is what was it like the first time you saw the finished documentary, seeing yourself up there on the big screen? What did that feel like for you?   Nathan Law: [00:50:58] It feels extremely weird. I still cannot get around the idea that, yeah, there's a big screen and there's my face and there's my voice. Even though I've been doing all these interviews and, and like video-taking for the past decades, it is still difficult to kind of get used to it. But also I'm, I'm glad that Joe and the team have produced a wonderful documentary. That's been a really good reception and people are understand more about Hong Kong through the lens of my story, and I'm grateful for that. So, yeah, as long as I can introduce that film to the others, go to Q&A and chat about it, I would love to do it, and I'm really proud of the result.   Miko Lee: [00:51:52] Thank you so much. And Joe, for you as the filmmaker, what is it that you want people to understand about this film?   Joe Piscatella: [00:52:01] What I want the audiences to take away is that, yes, this is the story of Hong Kong. Yes, this is the story of Nathan Law and other activists fighting for Hong Kong. But in so many ways, this is also a story for the rest of the world. Right now, we are at a point where, you know, democracy is in peril in many parts of the world. And what I want audiences to take away from this film is, if you don't participate in your democracy, if you do not do what you can to fight for and safeguard your freedoms. They can disappear very, very quickly.   Miko Lee: [00:52:37] Thank you very much, filmmaker Joe Piscatella and Nathan Law for talking with me about the new documentary film, Who's Afraid of Nathan Law?, which people can catch on POV PBS. We are so happy to see the film, to see that it's out there. I look forward to hearing more about the world's response to this powerful work. Thank you so much.   Nathan Law: [00:53:03] Yeah, thank you, Miko.   Joe Piscatella: [00:53:05] Thank you.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:53:07] Let's listen to one more song from APAture's 2024 featured musician Ian Santillano. This is “Overthinkings.”   MUSIC   You just listen to Ian Santillano and Āish's “Overthinkings.” You can check out Ian on Sunday, October 13th at the DNA Lounge for the APAture Music Showcase.   Miko Lee: [00:56:53] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.  Tonight's show was produced by Miko Lee and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 10.10.24 – Return appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – October 3, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted for a fall 2024 fund drive special.   The post Special Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by a fall 2024 fund drive special.   The post Special Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

Today's episode of APEX Express is preempted by a 2024 election special, hosted by Mitch Jeserich.   The post Special Fall Fund Drive Programming appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – September 5, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with playwright Naomi Iizuka and graphic novelist/activist Eddie Ahn.   For more information about the show's guests:   the MAGIC THEATRE and PLAY ON SHAKESPEARE present: Richard II A new translated version by NAOMI IIZUKA from William Shakespeare August 21 -September 8, 2024 Tickets available here. Eddie Ahns Advocate SHOW TRANSCRIPT Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Miko: [00:00:34] Good evening. Welcome to Apex Express. This is your host, Miko Lee. And tonight we're going to talk about retelling stories. So join us as you hop along the Apex Express. Welcome one and all to Apex Express. This is your host, Miko Lee. And tonight we're talking about retelling stories. I had the opportunity to speak to two artists. One is the playwright, Naomi Iizuka and the second is the activist artists graphic novelist Eddie Ahn. So first up, take a listen to my interview with playwright, Naomi Iizuka. Before we recorded the interview, I actually had a chance to talk with Naomi and we worked together many moons ago. We actually were calculating based on our children's ages. We work together in theater at Berkeley rep. And it is amazing to see Naomi retelling, so many stories in so many different cultures and genres. And here we talk about her experience rewriting Richard II which I had a chance to see at the magic theater. It has some absolutely amazing production values, and I encourage you all to go check it out. We'll put a link to the show in our show notes. So check out my interview with Naomi Iizuka. Welcome Naomi Iizuka to Apex Express. We're so excited to have the award winning playwright whose adaptation of Richard II opens at the Magic Theatre August 23rd and runs through September 8th. Welcome Naomi.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:02:30] Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here and so honored.   Miko Lee: [00:02:34] Well, we're honored to have you. I want to start with my big question, which I adapted from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges, which is who are your people and where do you come from?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:02:46] That's a beautiful question. I think that my people are adventurous and iconoclastic, and that means that they come from many different places, geographically and also spiritually and artistically. I definitely feel an affinity for the Bay Area. it was the first place I really. Came to in my sort of adult life and I feel a great affinity for theater people and theater artists. we are, I think, a community of artists that come from, you know, all sorts of traditions and we make this evanescent event. And I think there's something really beautiful in that.   Miko Lee: [00:03:31] Ooh, evanescent event. I really like that. That sounds so pretty. I'm wondering what legacy you carry with you from your people.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:03:40] I think, an awareness of history, an awareness of Mystery sort of just beyond your peripheral vision that there are stories that haven't been told that there are tremors and voices just underneath the surface of the every day And a real curiosity about that, and I think that that cuts across a lot of, people in my life who actually are not only in theater, you know, people who are, attorneys and in academia and scientists. I mean, just, I think, I think it's, a kind of an adventurous, um, curiosity. I think that that is what I've inherited.   Miko Lee: [00:04:18] Oh, thank you for sharing that. I'm wondering if that lends itself to the fact that you've adapted a number of classics. We're going to be talking about Richard III, but I know you also did a version of Hamlet that was set in Oakland, Orpheus, and the Odyssey, and Japanese folktales. Can you talk a little bit about what sparks your curiosity around adaptations?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:04:40] That's a great question. I think that adaptations at their best are conversations with ghosts. And I guess I really enjoy that. I enjoy this idea of, in some way being in conversation with. Consciousnesses that are not maybe here on this plane of existence anymore, but have left their thoughts and their, big questions, they've sort of embedded them in these works of art. And so when you adapt Shakespeare or you adapt a Japanese folktale, I feel like you're in conversation with These ghosts and they're wise and they're playful and they're mysterious and they're, challenging. And I, I love that. I love that experience.   Miko Lee: [00:05:25] Aside from the adaptations, have you had personal experiences with ghosts?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:05:30] Oh, wow. I would say yes. but I, I, I maybe not. That's something maybe I don't want to talk about.   Miko Lee: [00:05:39] No worries. I always love to hear. I have had experience with ghosts. So I always love to hear other people's ghost stories. I get it. If you don't want to talk about that's okay. Can you talk with me about this adaptation of Richard II? And I'm wondering how you got involved in this adaptation?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:05:59] Well, it's a commission. So I was asked to adapt or really translate is the word that I think is more accurate, a Shakespeare play. And it, it's a project called, play on where a bunch of contemporary writers were asked to translate Shakespeare. What that means is that we were really asked to do a deep dive into the original texts. I'm going to say plural because I think there are different versions even, and figure out the most muscular, vivid version of Shakespeare. Of Shakespeare that we could figure out for contemporary audiences. So it's less about putting our own spin on something. It's really about really wrestling with that material and finding this muscular Present day version of the material that is true to the original, and that brings to light the original and what sort of underneath the surface, you know, for contemporary audiences.   Miko Lee: [00:07:03] And since Richard II is about power and corruption, and we're in this election season, we just are in the midst of the Democratic Convention, I'm wondering if you see parallels with Richard II and what's happening now in our political realm.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:07:18] I do. I mean, and it's interesting because I think that even though this play is centuries old, it does very much speak to the present moment where you have really different ideas about what is the right direction for a country and for a government and what it means to govern. And I think that I cannot think of more timely questions. And also candidly, this sort of anxiety, that's, I think, an anxiety that we all feel in this moment where there are really You know, strong differences and and we've had some really, difficult divisions in our country and in within our own families. And I, and that is so, so much at play in Richard II. There's, these arguments that people have they're life and death and they're within families and they're within, you know, they're within countries and how they are resolved really changes the trajectory of the future. So yes, 100 percent it's so timely. It's, it's unbelievably timely.   Miko Lee: [00:08:24] And you've done a lot of works that are around, of adaptations, we talked about you doing those, but also you've done a lot of works that are around really intense issues from sexual assault and good kids and refugees and anonymous and unhoused youth and Polaroid stories. What draws you to storytelling? What draws you to the specific stories that you have been telling?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:08:48] I think that there is an answer to that question that is both conscious and aware and unconscious and more subterranean. So what's probably the most truthful answer is, I don't know, there is a kind of curiosity and hunger that I think I've had. I know I've had for my whole life, my whole life that I can remember where I want to know what the story is. I want to, you know, I see a person and I want to know where they came from. you know that, that excitement that I, I suspect many of us feel when you go into a library and you see all those books and you think, what are the stories? So that's the more sort of subterranean, um, sort visceral, impetus for storytelling. I think as I've gotten older and I've thought about it and I've become a teacher, I think that storytelling is incredibly powerful. And I think that how you tell stories and who gets to tell stories is so powerful. And I, and I think I'm perhaps stating the obvious, but I think it's something that I remind myself of on a regular basis. And so. My desire to tell stories that, maybe aren't told or aren't told in a way that is familiar is really deep. I, I think that that's perhaps maybe the most meaningful way that at least I can move through the world and the, and the writers and artists that are around me, the storytellers, dancers as well, and choreographers. I, I, think they share that, this sense that who tells the story and how you tell it. It matters a lot.   Miko Lee: [00:10:20] And so much of this work is really powerful and is really trying to hit at sometimes hidden histories, stories that we don't hear as often. I'm wondering if you think of yourself as an activist.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:10:33] You know, I haven't In all honesty, I don't, but I think I am, I think I am because I feel really acutely, certain things that must be said, and I think I'm realizing that the act of saying them and saying them you know, over time is actually an activist posture, you know, that you, have an engagement with the world that doesn't slacken that, continues over time and you stand your ground. And I think that if that can be something that, I can contribute in some small way. I will feel that there's some meaning to what it is I do.   Miko Lee: [00:11:14]And I'm wondering, because you've done genres, many different genres, from writing for TV, and then also stage, and writing for children's theater and adult theater, I'm wondering if, how each of those play into your writing process. Do you write differently when you write for TV versus stage? Do you put on a different hat to get into character so that you could do that? Do you write differently for children's work? I also see some of your children's theater pieces as being like really around intense issues. So I'm just wondering about how you blend those and if you kind of divide up parts of yourself or what is your approach to writing in these different genres?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:11:51] I think it's a great question. I always start, maybe not always, but I think 99 percent of the time I start with character because I think that when you start with character, you start with humans. And when you start with humans, you start with mystery. And I think that that to me feels like the most exciting starting point, whether you're writing a play for young audiences, or whether you're writing, a translation of a Shakespeare play, or whether you're writing something for television. So I think that's a common thread, starting with the human mystery inside of a life, inside of an individual, inside of their circumstances. that's, I think, the starting point always.   Miko Lee: [00:12:33] And you've been collaborating with Campo Santo and John and now the magic for so many years. Can you talk a little bit about the benefits and or challenges of long term collaboration?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:12:44] Think long term collaboration is perhaps one of the greatest gifts that an artist can be afforded because it means that you have a home and sort of looping back to an earlier question of yours, you have a tribe of people, a community of people that you're connected to and, and you have a shared, responsibility to the storytelling. And that, As I get older, feels so, it feels rare and it feels really precious because I mean, when I work with Camposanto, I just, you know, now I, and I've, you know, talking with Margo or Sean and Catherine Castellanos, I've known them for such a long time and I've watched them work and I've been in awe of their work and they, there's a way that we connect through the work that is, deeper than, than the surface layer, that you're able to sort of plumb depths that you sometimes can't when you're, just starting out working with someone, you know, and they may be a wonderful artist, but you just don't have those years of, knowledge and, trust.   Miko Lee: [00:13:57] Yeah, so many layers that you can rely on and that trust and the connection. Um, I guess they're kind of the family when we were talking in the very beginning, your tribe of people, the theater people.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:14:09] They are very much my tribe of people. I mean, I, I love them and it has felt like coming home, you know, to, to work with them.   Miko Lee: [00:14:16] Yay. I'm wondering if your ethnic tribe growing up in multiple parts, you know, being born in Japan and Indonesia and U. S. and being mixed race, Japanese Latin American, how does that impact your creative process?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:14:33] You know, I think I'm still answering that question. I think one thing that is really heartening is when I was younger, I felt very much like, oh, I don't fit into any box. And there aren't that many people like me that are, you know, multi ethnic and multi racial. And, as I've gotten older now, and I look at, for example, my son's generation, I'm like, that is now, I don't know if it's the norm, but in California, there's, so many people who are, mixed in and the mixtures are, you know, they run the gamut and I think in terms of my own work, maybe what that led to early on was an awareness that. the reality of lived existence for most people is complicated and not easily paraphrasable, and I think that that bred in me a certain humility and also a certain, there's a certain challenge there, you know, like, how do I, How do I evoke the truth of this really complicated reality that is not just my own reality, but, so many of us, right? we're not one thing. We're, we're many things, some of which are not always visible or some of which are in some ways hidden.   Miko Lee: [00:15:46] Have you ever written a play that's a Japanese Latin American play?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:15:51] not explicitly, no. I mean, I think a lot of the plays that I've written, they, they are, I would say, flexible in terms of their casting and in terms of their point of view.And I think that they invite, they invite that kind of collision. But specifically, no.   Miko Lee: [00:16:12] Well, I would be so curious to see your take on, like, the Japanese Latin American kidnapping and incarceration of that whole community. Yeah, there's so many stories that have not been told about the JLA community.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:16:26] So many, yep.   Miko Lee: [00:16:28] I'm wondering if there is a story that you grew up with that you remember your family telling you that's helped to frame your creative process?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:16:36] Oh, wow. That is a really great question. my maternal grandmother, was a, kind of a mysterious woman. And I, I wondered a lot about her and I think there were a lot of secrets in her past. I think she is somebody it's actually less about the stories that were told and more about the questions that not only I had about her, but my mother had about her, my uncle had about her, that we just never fully found out. We, you know, we discovered when she was well into her seventies that she was blind in one eye. She never learned to read or write and it was a little bit unclear. Estranged, I guess, from her family of origin. yeah, it just, there's so many questions about her. I think the other story from my father's side of the family, from the Japanese side of the family, which I have written about, actually, because my father told the story, from when I was, for as long as I can remember, my father was a, was a very young child in World War II and he was Japanese national and he, and he was in Tokyo with his family and their house was bombed. And my father was not in the house. He was supposed to have been in the house, but he, Kind of, he was very little. He was, I think he was like five or six, and he had wandered away. My father, kind of, the moral of the story for my father was always like, you know, don't do what people tell you, because if you do, something bad may happen. So he didn't do what he was supposed to do. He didn't stay put. He wandered away. And, and he, as a result, he survived, you know, and, think That was a story that I, I still think about. and I, if you knew my father, it would make a lot of sense because he has this really, um, very, defiant is not the quite the right word, but he really knew who he was and he wasn't going to sort of take it from anyone. He was just going to, you know, do it his way. and that story felt very much, you know, the origin story of that personality.   Miko Lee: [00:18:35] So he had encouraged you to be a rebel, to kind of be who you are.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:18:40] A little bit. But you know what's so funny is I, you know, growing up, I was not like my father. You know, my father was, you know, he would, he told many stories. I'm not gonna, I can't tell you all of them, but you know, he was kind of a naughty kid growing up and, and he got in trouble, you know, he was, you know, and, and I was not that way. I was the opposite. I was a really, you know, very obedient, good student. Actually, in a strange way, my father, I think had the last laugh because I did turn out to be in my life choices, I think rather rebellious, but that wasn't nobody's meeting me as a, you know, as a teenager or a child would have thought that they would have thought, Oh, you know, what a well behaved, polite, you know, good student and then I turned out to have a kind of a very different trajectory. It's interesting.   Miko Lee: [00:19:24] What's the first play you ever wrote? How old were you? And what was it?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:19:28] I think the very first play I wrote was this very strange play. I was, a senior in college and it was called Betty Ford and the Dream Commandos. I think I have only a copy that's paper because I wrote it on a typewriter. That's how old I am. And I, I, it was a really expressionistic, strange piece that was that they did site specifically, it was short. I think it was maybe a 20 minute play. And I honestly don't remember the story of it. I remember fragmentary moments of it. I remember there was a chorus of dream commandos that were sort of like sort of ninja like and there was a Betty Ford character who was kind of in a haze. Yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:20:12] That is so wacky. Why Betty Ford?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:20:16] God knows. I don't know. I mean, I   Miko Lee: [00:20:18] Betty Ford as like First Lady Betty Ford or Betty Ford as in running the rehab center?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:20:24] Well, I mean, it was the same person and I think you put your finger on it, which is that I This was a woman that I think I, as a young person, I remember watching her on television and thinking, and this was before the sort of drug rehabilitation part of her life. I just thinking like, she has a hard life. She seems, you know, she's smiling, but I, I think behind that smile, well, again, it gets to that human mystery. I, I guess I was curious about her. She seemed like somebody that, Had this persona and had this sort of public facing, way about her, but that there was a lot of sort of still waters run deep about her too. So I think, I think that that was, that made me curious, you know?   Miko Lee: [00:21:07] Oh, I would love to have a reading with playwrights reading their first plays. That would be so fun.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:21:13] That'd probably a little sad. Scary.   Miko Lee: [00:21:17] I, there's a beautiful exhibit art exhibit where they had children's book authors. The, um, this was a museum of children's art did it and they had their work now beside a work they created when they were a kid and in framed and it was so gorgeous because. Everyone really showed that even when they were like five years old, they were already creating their style. So Naomi Iizuka: [00:21:40] That's fascinating. Yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:21:41] So I just love, I would love to see playwrights that from playwrights. Anyways. I'm wondering if you can talk about your daily creative process, like what do you do? I mean, I, I talked to Isabel Allende about this and she said, every morning I get up, I get a cup of tea, I make myself go into this room and I write, even if it's painful. Yeah. And even if it's bad, I'm wondering if you have like a set schedule or how do you do it?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:22:06] I don't have a set schedule. Mainly, I, I wish I, I did, and I may be able to now in my life, but I think for many years just juggling a day job. And, and I, and I still have, you know, I teach and I, I write for television and so it's, it's a little hectic. and I was a single mom. But now my son is in college, I just actually dropped him off. So I think I will have my schedule be a little different. What I do, which is I think related to what you just described, is I make sure that I write every day, but it's not always at the same time. So sometimes if I have the luxury of, a day where I, don't have to be somewhere at 8am, I will write in the morning. And I do like very much sort of waking up, brewing a cup of coffee and, writing. But I also write, you know, late at night. In fact, I was, you know, just dropping my son off at college and, he was asleep. And, I was sort of in a different part of in the Airbnb where we were staying. And I, Just wrote, you know, so I was like, as long as I'm writing a certain amount of time or certain number of pages a day. But I also agree with what you described in Isabella and his process that it's really important to write even when you don't feel like it. And I tell my students that all the time, because, you know, if you just wait till you feel like it, then you know, you may not write very much. So you have to write even when you don't feel like it. And even when it feels like the writing is hard, or it's not what you want it to be. And then it will, if you keep at it, you know, it will be.   Miko Lee: [00:23:32] Thanks. Okay. My last question for you is what are you reading, watching, or listening to right now? First thing that comes to your mind, what are you consuming?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:23:41] That's so great. I am reading, right now this, I guess you would call it a graphic novel Uzumaki, which is kind of iconic. And I had read part of it a while back, but I am kind of reading the whole, like all the volumes. And it's this Very strange, I guess you'd call it J horror, dystopian, comic, but it's beautifully illustrated and the story is really mysterious and compelling. I'm listening to Pod Save America just because it's election season and I'm really curious you know, what those guys have to say. And I haven't seen it yet, but I just actually texted Sean. I'm going to see that this weekend because it just came down to San Diego. I'm going to see Sing Sing with Coleman Domingo and Sean San Jose. And I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I feel like I'm the last person to see it because it was in New York and it was in LA and then it opened in San Diego just as I was like leaving to drop my son off at college. So I'm seeing it this weekend.   Miko Lee: [00:24:41] I just actually was looking at this note from Stephanie Shu saying go see it tonight. I will get you free tickets for Sing Sing. I was just thinking about that. I should go see that tonight.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:24:52] I'm so excited.   Miko Lee: [00:24:53] Me too. Very excited. and Coleman also lovely Bay Area person. Uzumaki, that looks fascinating. Supernatural psychological horror is what is the genre.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:25:06] No, it's, it's, it's really extraordinary. And, the thing is, is the reason I'm, I'm reading it now is I have like the full collected, all the volumes in one sort of giant omnibus. And so I'm reading everything, you know, all of them from beginning to end. I'd read the first, the first one, which is probably the most famous one, but it's great. I mean, even if it's not your cup of tea, it's, it's so cool. I love it. It is kind of my cup of tea, but, but even if it's not, you will love it.   Miko Lee: [00:25:32] Okay. Thank you for the recommendation. we're going to post links for people to buy tickets for the show at the magic. Is there anything else that you'd like to let our audience know about you and your work?   Naomi Iizuka: [00:25:44] I think you covered it. You're a really good interviewer.   Miko Lee: [00:25:49] Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. I'm going to see the show this weekend. I can't wait to see it and I'm excited to see what else you create next. Thank you so much, Naomi.   Naomi Iizuka: [00:26:00] Thank you.   Miko Lee: [00:26:01] Next up, listen to Florente Aguilar a Manila born guitarist and composer whose arrangements and composition successfully craft the balance between respect and redefinition of tradition. MUSIC   That was Florente Aguilar, a Manila born guitarist, and you are listening to Apex Express. Next up, take a listen to my conversation with advocate, activist and graphic illustrator, Eddie Ahn. It is quite amazing to hear from an artist, who's an activist, who's telling their story. And tonight it's all about how we retell stories, whether that's rewriting a traditional piece like Shakespeare or rewriting the tale that is your life and doing it. In graphic illustration style. So listen to my interview with Eddie Ahn. Welcome Eddie Ahn to Apex Express.   Eddie Ahn: [00:29:40] Thanks for having me.   Miko Lee: [00:29:41] I'm so excited to be able to talk to you about your new graphic memoir of family, community, and the fight for environmental justice. Loved reading your book and looking at the artistry. It's so powerful. So I want to start with my very first question that I ask many guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Eddie Ahn: [00:30:04] Gosh, the book itself covers a lot of my people, particularly my family, myself. I am now, two generations removed, of course, from my grandfather, which the book begins with. he himself was, uh, very brilliant person from all accounts, was a translator for the U S army and South Korean army during the Korean war. And then, I am also, you know, this, the son of immigrants, my mother and father who came from South Korea to the US and really built their careers and their family here. So I think a lot about that migration pattern and how it's influenced who I am today and what I do.   Miko Lee: [00:30:44] And what legacy do you carry with you from those ancestors?   Eddie Ahn: [00:30:48] I think a lot about their successes and failures. so the challenges that they encountered along the way. My grandfather, of course, was A survivor of a lot of trauma he himself went through the Korean War. and then also was separated from his family a lot after, you know, the Korean DMZ, the demilitarized zone was settled. So for him, his life is really one of, Very, very deep trauma and tragedy, having been separated from most of his family. And then he had to go start a new family in South Korea. And a lot of the book covers, the initial kind of devastation he faced. And then later on that the challenges he faced, even as an entrepreneur, very well educated person trying to survive in South Korea and my mother's resentments around that are also covered in the graphic memoir as well. So a lot of it is like, Dealing with that family kind of conflict and also understanding it in the scope of my own life and how I've chosen to pursue nonprofit work to begin with in the United States.   Miko Lee: [00:31:51] Thank you for sharing that. talk to me about the title of the book, Advocate, and what does that mean to you?   Eddie Ahn: [00:31:58] So the title of the book was always meant to have multiple meanings. It was about advocating for oneself, one's own identity, one's own career choice against, very different family expectations. And then it's about professional advocacy. It's about advocating for diverse communities. The nonprofit I work for is called Bright Line Defense, and we do a lot of environmental justice work. And environmental justice is oftentimes the intersection of issues on the environment, race and identity, and the economy, and then grappling with the intersectionality of those issues. There's a lot of complexity in what I do. And part of the title of the book reflects that and advocating again, for oneself. And for other communities.   Miko Lee: [00:32:46] I love this. And I related to this a lot in terms of nonprofit work. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about that, about Asian American expectations, particularly your family, Korean American, and the value of nonprofit work.   Eddie Ahn: [00:33:01] For my own family, my parents in particular, I think their expectations for me and what I was going to do with the educational degrees that I obtained. So I went to a really good school, Brown University in Rhode Island, and then I obtained a law degree at UC College of Law, San Francisco. For them, their expectation was, go out, become highly credentialed, and then go make money. Their metrics of success in the US was about a financial metric of success. and for myself, I never quite took to that, for better, for worse, perhaps for myself, which is also covered in the book, but it's also because I valued social work and the active building community, so much and for them, they struggled with that choice. It wasn't exactly what they saw as succeeding in the U S but for myself, it was always incredibly important to do and pursue.   Miko Lee: [00:33:53] I think that power of your convictions really shows up in the book strongly because I think the classic Asian American story, you did the things, you got the Ivy League degree, you got the law degree, and your connection with your grandfather. I'm wondering about your family's feeling about your connection with your grandfather in terms of being an advocate. What was that like for them and the expectations for you?   Eddie Ahn: [00:34:18] That's a great question. in many ways, they saw the connection that I had with my grandfather early on. So even in the book, I describe moments where I'm reading at his feet, you know, from his library collection, and we would talk about different topics. My Korean back then was always, you know, a shaky, maybe at best, it was conversational. But a lot of what he would relate to me were about complex subjects that, at the time, even as a child, I didn't fully understand. But at least I understood the feeling, the depth behind them, which is why I really enjoyed talking to him. I think my mother reading the book has been actually really surprised at the moments of connection I found. For instance, I drew a photo of myself with my grandfather that she didn't even realize existed. So, Seeing how that relationship has unfolded even through the creation of this book, um, for my mother has been actually really interesting to do.   Miko Lee: [00:35:14] Oh, I love that about your mom and kind of getting a another vision of the history just by seeing a photograph but an image you drew of a photograph. There's a beautiful resonance there and the style of illustrations that you do has a, a soft beauty to it that's kind of lyrical. I really appreciate that. I'm wondering if you could talk with us about the inspiration for creating this memoir and in the style that you did in the graphic novel style.   Eddie Ahn: [00:35:45] I love comics because a lot of it is not just about the art and the panel itself. It's how the story actually moves from panel to panel and how the art gets juxtaposed against larger scenes, for instance for myself in doing this graphic memoir, it was a big jump. for myself, like I'm self taught as an artist to begin with. So understanding, you know, things like. Perspective, coloring, anatomy, those are all things I had to learn as I created this particular graphic memoir. and part of the storytelling technique I use in this graphic memoir is also heavily relying on color to move the time periods of the story. So, for instance, my childhood is represented in shades of red. My days in college and up until law school are represented in shades of green. As I start to go through a more transitional stage in life, like getting more deeply into nonprofit work and trying to figure out how to use my law degree, those are all represented in So for me, like I really want to use color to create that sense of era changes and then also create. Flashbacks and flash forwards in the narrative as well that I think you can really only do in comics. I do think comics is a really unique medium in the way, especially if you're evaluating it or reading it in printed format allows you to turn the page back and forth and enjoy it.   Miko Lee: [00:37:12] What came first, the story that you wanted to tell or the images?   Eddie Ahn: [00:37:19] The very first comic I ever posted, because I originally started publishing these graphic memoir comics on Instagram, was about my Oakland Chinatown work. So my first job out of college was as an AmeriCorps member, working as an after school programmer. I taught arts and public speaking for elementary students, third through fifth grade. I think very nostalgically about that time. It was a really great experience overall to work with youth who were really into receiving the best education possible. They went to Lincoln Elementary School in Oakland, Chinatown. it was a lot of thinking about the joyful moments and then balancing against the difficulties of nonprofit work. So I was an AmeriCorps member, and if folks know, how Financially stressful that position can be. It's essentially at the time it was less than a thousand dollars a month for 40 hours a week. So it was a very under-resourced position. Maybe it's one way to put it, as you know, one tries to serve the community as well.   Miko Lee: [00:38:20] So can you share a little bit about your artistic process?   Eddie Ahn: [00:38:24] So I started with fiction when I worked in comics. And in fact, one of the first zines I ever created was, essentially collected comic strips for hyphen magazine, which was a great, Asian American issues magazine. And I really enjoyed telling stories through the lens, essentially the lens of fictional characters. So for instance, I had a talking turtle character that was trying to sell coffee across San Francisco. again, going back to my grandfather, very much patterned after my grandfather's failed entrepreneurial ambitions. So for me, there was a lot of joy in creating these comic strips, mostly illustrated in black and white. so just simple inks. When I started writing my own, graphic memoir, I was thinking more like what were big, ambitious kind of swings. I wanted to take at storytelling, which is why I started doing the more complex color scheme I described earlier. and then part of it was even trying to figure out what was the tone that I wanted to adopt when I even, was creating these comics on Instagram. So for me, like, it started very early on, perhaps in 2016, I started illustrating the first pages on paper. And then I didn't even publish them until February, 2020. So that was roughly like a week or two before the pandemic where I posted the first, comic and then the audience for it on Instagram grew a lot. So from a couple hundred from back then, to now what's probably over 80,000 followers.   Miko Lee: [00:39:56] Oh, that is so exciting. And by the way, I think, you know, this hyphen magazine, we're part of the same family because hyphen is part of the AACRE network that Apex Express is part of too.   Eddie Ahn: [00:40:05] Yes. I'm, I'm a big fan of AACRE to begin with. And yes, I've always had a lot of affection for the generations of leadership that, have essentially built up hyphen over a long period of time.   Miko Lee: [00:40:16] I love that. Can you talk a little bit about how you combine your artistry with your community organizing?   Eddie Ahn: [00:40:23] Yes, I, in the past I created my art through a series of zines, but then I had to learn how to market and essentially promote myself. And I think my community organizing skills did come into play when I was either going to say zine fests or local arts festivals, as well as Essentially creating art shows, solo art shows in San Francisco. So for each, self published comic book, I would essentially do an art show centered around it. and they, the venues ranged, you might know some of these venues like 111 Minna, marvelous coffee and wine bar, which is now closed, dot art bar and gallery. so there were a number of venues that I would set up essentially, a larger kind of act of community building through art. So I think a lot about those days because, this is all pre pandemic. I really enjoyed bringing together, folks in my nonprofit world, as well as, family and friends to come and appreciate, you know, essentially two or three years worth of art creation nowadays, the book tour has been a very different experience. So that's very much, you know, through a more established publisher, Penguin Random House, and then going to, a number of bookstores across the US has been also a really fun experience to do.   Miko Lee: [00:41:41] What have you learned from going to all these different bookstores?   Eddie Ahn: [00:41:45] I've gotten a better sense of history, how book selling actually happens, and New York, for instance, I did a, a large event, over a hundred people came to The Strand, in Manhattan, which has its own very long history in New York's literary scene.   Miko Lee: [00:42:00] Ah, one of my favorite bookstores, The Strand. Yeah. It's so exciting.   Eddie Ahn: [00:42:04] It's a really beautiful venue, where they hold their literary events. So, I've been very fascinated by how people come together around art through the book tour. And, the Strand event itself was a huge joy because it was, Set up as in conversation with another author, and I like to do those events because it feels less like I'm talking at people and more like I'm talking with a person and then seeing the audience's engagement with material, either through some audience members just flip through a couple pages, and then they'll immediately have questions, or they might have come to the event having read the entire book at this point with their own kind of set of nuanced questions. So seeing the whole range of questions through a number of events has been also a very fun experience.   Miko Lee: [00:42:55] And in the book you write about your family's expectations around non profit life, what do they think now about you as an artist, as a graphic novelist, and kind of going on this book tour? Where are they at with your career now?   Eddie Ahn: [00:43:10] My father actually got to experience some public art installations that I'd done in San Francisco. So, there are these utility boxes which are in the middle of the street. And then my art was blown up to essentially be wrapped around them and then displayed. And the art still exists. This was installed way back in 2019. And it's still around today. So for my dad to see that, take pictures of it, touch it with his own hands, I think was a really good experience. He really did appreciate the physicality of that art and how it's displayed in such a public way. Uh, unfortunately nowadays he's too sick to enjoy the book. but my mother on the other hand has read the book and I think One nice coda to, everything that's described in the book, you know, despite all the conflicts with my family about non profit work is that my mother has grown to appreciate what I do a lot, as a result of reading the book. She says she's read it three times now and has cried on each reading, which initially I was worried about because I thought, you know, She was really perhaps, sensitive about our family and how I describe our family conflicts in the book, but it was really more in her own words about how underappreciated nonprofit workers are at times and how she felt. A lot more empathy for them. As a result, I was really surprised by that observation. I really didn't think she would ever care much for what I do for a living. But, yeah, I thought that was a really nice, reaction on our part.   Miko Lee: [00:44:38] Oh, I love to hear that. switching a bit to you as a young organizer, you started pretty young, you know, with AmeriCorps and then working in nonprofit world. With your experience now, what message would you give yourself when you were just starting out as a student organizer?   Eddie Ahn: [00:44:56] Oh, I think at the time I was fairly cheerful about everything. And I, I think that attribute still, endures to this day. I think it's a really important a character trait to have when one does nonprofit work, because I think it's easy to go through life expecting a lot of things to wonder why you aren't getting X, Y, Z, for myself. What I would tell my younger self is, you know, continue with that cheerful attitude, perhaps have better boundaries at times to on average, my employers have been quite good in the nonprofit sphere, but I do think generally it's easy also to work. Perhaps too much, and to demand too much of oneself in service to community. So maybe, one thing I'll tell my younger self is, to pace yourself too and just be more focused on things that, really excited me at the end of the day. you know, the flip side of that, maybe a counterpoint is like, it was important to try out a lot of stuff too. So, I think it all worked out in many ways, just trying out things that it may not have been the most efficient use of my time, but I still learned a lot.   Miko Lee: [00:46:02] Speaking of pacing yourself, you currently have more than a full time job as an executive director of a environmental non profit. You're on several boards and commissions, and just have written this graphic novel. What do you do to take care of yourself?   Eddie Ahn: [00:46:19] Um, I do enjoy, you know, like most people streaming shows and, even one quirk of mine that I enjoy relaying is like, I'm very much into the let's what's called the let's play movement. it's watching essentially other people play video games on YouTube and myself, like I can play a video game. I have, played several, over the last few years that I really do enjoy, but there's something very kind of therapeutic about watching someone else be productive or. perhaps entertaining themselves, without me having to, figure it out myself. So I think part of it is like just being able to relax and just watch a screen is, is, relaxing a form of meditation.   Miko Lee: [00:47:00] Okay. Thanks for that. What do you want folks to understand after reading your graphic novel?   Eddie Ahn: [00:47:08] One interesting thing I've thought a lot about is how the book describes non profit work is not about saving communities. and that sometimes it's referred to in academia as like the savior complex or messiah complex. I do think just being Aware of the complexity of our world and how difficult it is to resolve or fix issues is a core message of the book I hope comes across, and in many ways, comics, you know, is dominated by the superhero genre too, which I think a lot, and of course I love superhero comics to begin with. I do read quite a few of them. And then what I've been fascinated by is thinking through like, Superheroes themselves as characters are out to often fix the world or save the world and so thinking through that dynamic and how this comic is not about that, I think has been a good thing to go through for myself as an artist. So I hope that message comes across despite it being a comic.   Miko Lee: [00:48:15] Thanks for that. I think it's, as opposed to the superhero genre, I see your book more in the personal stories like Pee Booie's The Best We Could Do or Marianne's Persepolis. I see it more in that genre of like really personal family storytelling as opposed to a superhero genre. It's so powerful.   Eddie Ahn: [00:48:38] Thank you. Yes, I agree. I really appreciate those books as well and how they're able to essentially highlight the perspective of the protagonists alongside the environments in which they grow up in, whether it's family or a nation state, etc.   Miko Lee: [00:48:55] And I appreciate how your graphic novel really has your trajectory, you know, going from understanding family, but also really your adult life as somebody that works in the nonprofit field. I think it's really new in that approach. What's next for you?   Eddie Ahn: [00:49:12] Oh, gosh, I am still drawing. I am never wanting to give up on art at the end of the day. I think it's how I've improved as an artist is that I do drive myself to think through, a larger, better project. On Instagram, I'll continue to publish more comics in the future. I am planning through a potential mural project in San Francisco. Uh, it would be very different than the utility box art installations I've done in the past. as for my nonprofit work at Brightline, I'm still very much enjoy it. I have a incredible, team that I work with and I. I've really come to appreciate everything that Brightline has as a result of early years of grinding work that I put in and then to see other people also put in really high quality work for the organization has has been a joy to me personally. So I hope to keep on doing what I'm doing at Brightline for a long time to come. And yeah, I guess we'll find out in the coming years ahead.   Miko Lee: [00:50:14] I like, I, I, one, I'm curious to find out more about the mural, excited to learn more about that, and it sounds like you're going to hold these, both sides of yourself as the artist, as the non profit leader, you're going to continue to do them both. I'm wondering, so much of non profit life is, we're learning by experience, you know, we're, and so I'm thinking about, The connection with being a self taught artist like you're always just learning something. How has being a self taught artist impacted your artistic work and your work in nonprofit world?   Eddie Ahn: [00:50:47] I think it's improved my patience, both in non profit work and in evolving my art style. everything I do is drawn by hand, so I typically just work pencil to paper, ink over pencils, and then finally, Copic markers, their alcohol based art marker, to lay on the color, and that technique essentially evolved over, gosh, uh, eight, nine year period to you and get to where the book is now, the book itself is the culmination of well over 5,000 hours, and each page, you know, on average is probably somewhere between 20 to 30 hours. So just having that kind of discipline to develop everything around the book, has really taught me a lot, I think about life. And then also it's been a nice form of meditation unto itself to just to be able to create art. For that long of a period, over, you know, essentially a long, timeline has, has been really good for my own processes, thinking processes around nonprofit work, because it pushes me to, be creative in the nonprofit work itself.   Miko Lee: [00:51:59] Well, Eddie Ahn, author of Advocate, tell our audience how they can find out more about your work.   Eddie Ahn: [00:52:06] The book can be found, in a number of local bookstores at this point, Penguin Random House has done excellent work in distributing across the US of course, it can be found at most major booksellers, such as Barnes Noble, bookshop.org, et cetera. and they can also find my art online for free on Instagram. The handle is at E H A—those are my initials, Eddie Ahn—comics, as it sounds.   Miko Lee: [00:52:37] Thank you so much. We so appreciate hearing, from you more about your book and we look forward to seeing your murals and seeing the work that you do out in the community.Thank you so much.   Eddie Ahn: [00:52:48] Thanks again for having me, Miko. Really appreciate you.   Miko Lee: [00:52:50] Please check out our website, kpfa.org To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 8.29.24 – Retelling Stories appeared first on KPFA.

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   Important Resources QTViet Cafe website Instagram Facebook Register for QTViet Cafe's 8 Year Anniversary Bilingual Letter for a Free Palestine (English/Viet) Transcript Cheryl Truong: Good evening! You were currently tuned in to APEX Express. I'm your host Cheryl Truong, and tonight is an AACRE night. What is AACRE, you might be asking. Comprised of 11 grassroots, social justice groups, the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality Network — AACRE — leverages the power of its network to focus on long-term movement building and support for Asian Americans committed to social justice. Speaking of AACRE groups, APEX Express is proud to be a part of the AACRE network. Tonight. We have some special guests from a collective near and dear to my heart. Hải Võ and Jean Jean Phạm from QTViệt Cafe. QTViệt Cafe is a project of Asian refugees United, which is one of the 11 Asian American social justice groups within the AACRE network. Hải, do you want to kick us off by introducing yourself? And QTViệt Cafe?  Hai Vo: Co chào mọi người! Hi everyone. Thanks Cheryl for inviting QTViệt Cafe to be here today. My name is Hải. I go by my name. It means ocean in Việt. And just so excited to be here today. , I'm part of the Queer Trans Việt Cafe Collective. We are a cultural organizing hub by and for queer and trans Việt folks for our freedom and liberation. And we do that through the creative arts, ancestral life ways, and, connecting intergenerationally with our parents, our elders, families, and friends. We'll be celebrating eight years, and I've been a part of it in the beginning when Mơ asked me to help advise and start the project. What started out as an idea to essentially really bring us together and meet other queer and trans Việt people, and with a little bit of SEED funding from the Impact Hub and Youth Impact Hub Oakland project and fellowship, we've been able to not just grow our numbers, but also really more importantly, My healing and then our collective healing.  Just so grateful to be here. And I'm just so excited that Jean, you can join us. Jean is just amazing all around, such a thoughtful intuitive person, designer, friend, just all around beauty of an artist. Thank you for introducing me to the world of visual art and just so many things that you've just been exploring over the years. So, yeah, I'll pass it over.  Jean Pham: Oh my god, thanks Hải. That's honestly too generous. And thanks for inviting us here, Cheryl. That's really awesome that we have this opportunity to share about QTViệt Cafe and our work. My name is Jean. I use they/ them pronouns. I've been a part of of QTViệt Cafe since 2018 when I first moved here to the Bay Area and honestly was looking for queer and trans Việt Namese community, which although I grew up in Orange County, I have always found it very difficult to relate and find other QTViets I've been a part of the various programming and events that QTViệt has put on, including our Healers and Artists cohort. I think my role in QTViệt Cafe is honestly to just , go with the flow. I try to make myself available as much as I can. I try to help with designing things. A big cornerstone of QTViệt Cafe is repairing our connection with our ancestral and cultural heritage in a way that still celebrates and maintains our queerness and transness at the forefront. A lot of this I found has been through the culinary arts, which to me was a big point of growth. Literally using taste and smell to connect us with memory and feeling and healing. QTViệt Cafe is honestly such a special place here. It started in Oakland here in the East Bay, but we have members all across the Bay Area and even outwards in different states and locales. So it's been a pretty amazing journey to see how vast the QTViet Cafe network has expanded and definitely excited to talk about it. So yeah, I'll just check there. Again, thanks for having us.  Cheryl Truong: Thanks so much for sharing that, and especially the culinary aspect of QTV, I think is really what makes y'all so, so special. And honing that ancestral connection through food, too, is something I noticed that you all do , extremely well. Hai brings up that we're celebrating eight years of QTV at Cafe, coming up very, very soon, which is such a long time to celebrate trans and queer Việt Namese magic. I want to know what does this milestone mean to you, maybe it tastes a certain way, maybe it smells like nuoc mam or something like that. Jean Pham: Yeah, eight years is a long time. I think it's longer than any relationship I've ever had. , I've always found the QTViet Cafe such a beautiful, open space. It's very different from any organization I've ever been a part of. There's been times when, I've been overwhelmed and had to step away, but I've always just been invited back and I've been given that grace to be as involved as I want to. There's something we practice it's called penguin theory where we try to support the inner penguins like who you know move in advance of work but also have space for us to be modular. We built this bastion of work here in a Bay and I've eight years I think really to me starts or begins this journey of connecting with a greater diasporic queer and trans Việt Namese collective. So, last year was a big points in our journey as QTViet cafe, because we were able to. a fundraise and take about a dozen members to go back to Việt Nam and connect with Queer and Trans Việt Namese in Saigon. And that was just honestly, such like a unbelievable thing. Totally out of my imagination that we were able to do it. But now it really peaks our imagination of yes, , there's queer and trans Việt Namese people all over the world. Next year marks the 50th year since the Việt Nam War had ended, and there's diasporic queer and trans Việt Namese all across the U. S., but also France and Germany, Australia, Japan. We were able to form these meaningful connections here in the East Bay, but I think what I'm thinking about now is how do we take these lessons we've learned in community building and creating our own traditions and connecting with other locales, like in the queer and trans people in Australia , LA or New York or Texas of which, they do exist. There are other collectives, queer and trans Vietnamese there, but, how do we further unite the different threads of Diasporic Viets, and so it's kind of a very hard question to answer, but I think, again, we have such a strong organizing and magic that I think People that we connect with, they get why does work is important and it's what's what's needed right now. To build these strong points of relationships and solidarity across different locales internationally and outside of our own safe collective spaces. Hai Vo: Yeah, I resonate with everything that Jean shared. I think for me, eight years of continuing to gather and to organize and to be with one another means that the vision of a cultural healing hub, by and for queer and trans people to learn our ancestral ways, to be creative with one another, to heal with our elders still resonates like it still matters. I'm getting emotional about it because I just been thinking a lot about, this question. We're approaching 10 years and even 12 years. And I keep asking myself, as a queer Việt person, am I more free? Am I more liberated? I think I want to be asking myself that question deeply in the next phase of my life. Having gone through a journey on my own to explore my own gender, sexuality and be more loving of my trans femness and explore my art around food and food waste and being a diasporic cultural food worker, but also explore my eco- femme writing and erotica. Those things are really exciting for me, but also when we started QTViet Cafe, I came to peace with potentially being estranged from my parents. I noticed that a lot in our community, like that's a possibility. After my mom passed in 2018 and inviting my dad to, you know, I've invited my parents every year to come to QTViet, they haven't. Me inviting my dad to bring a picture of my mom for the altar. For me, like, okay, that's the cultural organizing piece. But deep down, I just really wanted to celebrate my mom and I just wanted my dad to be there. And to like witness how I've grown, witness my friends and family, witness the chosen family that I've built over time. And my dad came and my dad stayed through the program. My dad donated. My dad could have chosen not to go.  My dad could have left the program. My dad could have not donated. If anything, he could have probably done a lot of things Not in support of what we do. And not to say that this happens with every person or every family, but I think that for me, that's the power in trying to heal our relationships with ourselves and our families and with each other. Every year I hear more struggles, as queer and trans Việt people, and I also hear more joys and liberations, and so I think for me, yeah, eight years means that, we still are surviving, and we are still thriving any way that we can. Whether that's through our foodways, our practice of trying to continue the language, whether it's connecting on our different art forms, I'm hopeful. Eight years means being more of ourselves, and it means being able to experience one another being more of ourselves.  In my relationship with my dad, I've been able to be more honest. I see my dad as more honest, and I hope that by doing this cultural organizing work and arts as a way to practice healing justice, I want more of us to see each other as human. Queer, trans, Việt-ness is not a sickness or a disease. But also our parents are more than that role, that they're humans who experience war and trauma and are also healing too. And so, I think, that's a big part of what eight years means to me. Eight years also means we have, like, hundreds of recipes. I still haven't written out all the recipes, but in my mental Rolodex, we have lots of recipes, lots of songs, lots of poems, visual , art pieces, photos, videos. We just have so much art that expresses the queer trans Việt experience, especially the diaspora. I'm excited to, create more of it and also help archive that and document that and celebrate that as we approach, 10, 12 years and into the farther future.  My example is specific to my dad, but I think that we all heal in different ways with ourselves and our relationship to body and spirit, our relationship to other family, other friends, how we relate to each other, how we relate to the world. I see that in, in every one of us. Jean Pham: Everything Hai is saying is so important and beautiful. The landscape that QTViet formed in eight years ago was in many ways very different from now. There's a lot more shift in their communities too. Eight years ago, for example, I grew up in Orange County. Little Saigon, outside of Việt Nam, it's the densest Việt Namese population, where in San Jose, it's like the largest Việt Namese populations outside of Việt Nam . Still at their core like very deeply conservative locales. And, it's one of the reasons why I was seeking community in the eight years since then I think we've seen a kind of a shift. Our generation of Việt Namese diasporic students, descendants, inhabitants, we're challenging the politics, reckoning of, what does it mean for us, who descendants of refugees, people who hold all these different complexities, who also struggling to find our own space, what does it mean for us to, create and shape our own worlds, or to even resist against some of the things we were taught. I've been in QTViệt Cafe for most of my 20s, and I really feel the collective has honestly raised me in many ways that changed me for the better. I remember, one of my first QTViệt Cafe meetings, everyone was just cooking. I came in, like, on time. I was coming from a very different environment in terms of political organizing, where it's very we have a set agenda, everything's really disciplined. In QTViet Cafe spaces, we spend most, like, an hour or two just kind of checking in with each other, making sure everyone just felt okay and present, and able to move. A big part of it is still just being in community, cooking with each other, sharing recipes, and that's so central to the work. It's a slower pace, but I also felt like it's also ingenuous. It's really about building relationships and families. So many of us have complicated relationships with our blood families and. within QTViet Cafe spaces, sometimes we do talk about it, and sometimes there is space for us to explore that form of hardship, but people just understand. If we come in a space as a queer and trans Viet, there are certain experiences that are almost unfortunately, , universal, or you can just deeply feel. And everyone just almost telepathically holds that space for each other in a very, like, beautiful way. Cheryl Truong: You bring up how last year you were all able to go to Việt Nam, to the motherland. What is the landscape there? Like politically, emotionally, spiritually. Jean Pham: Yeah, last year we went in October, it was almost a week before Halloween I believe, and we had been preparing for this journey for half a year and it was actually delayed. Originally there were plans for , queer and trans Việt Namese. to go Việt Nam together in 2020. But because of the onset of the lockdown, these plans were not scrapped, but just put on pause until we could travel in a meaningful and safe way.  I would say the landscape in Việt Nam with the queer and trans, community we met, it was a big shock to me. It was, very loving, you know, like When I told my parents I was going my mom sent me this large message about how dangerous Việt Nam is, it's like a third world country, that people are gonna try to scam me or steal my belongings and that I should always be on guard, that even my friends can't necessarily be trusted because they might be fooled too. And I didn't necessarily believe her all the way, right? I think I thought she was being a little bit just overprotective. And when I met people in Việt Nam, no, it was like the exact opposite. Everyone was very curious, where are you from? Why are you here?  We met with a collective called the Bạc Xỉu Collective. Bạc Xỉu is a type of Việtnamese coffee. I thought it was interesting that both our collectives are named after community spaces that revolve around coffee. The Bạc Xỉu Collective were very, like, loving and open to us. They were just so curious that our group existed. A lot of them practice the art of drag, but they also had members who were involved with very different art forms, pretty similar to us. I think one of the questions I was trying to reckon with was, what does it mean to explore your queerness and transness, when you're not confronted with whiteness in the way that we are as people living in America. Obviously, white supremacy is global, but I felt it's such a new way to be queer in Việt Nam, if that makes sense. One of the highlights from meeting the collective was one of the first nights when we had rented this apartment suite and we invited a lot of the locals to come over and we just had a nice little kiki moment. We had brought over gifts. Hải is always very hospitable and gracious and prepared. Hải brought this entire suitcase full of seeds of gifts of prints of artwork that we had created and we exchanged it with them and they also just had a moment where we went around in a circle just shared who we are. It was bilingual. I was really nervous. I was like looking up on Google Translate, how to say something very, it was just like, Hi, my name is Jean. I'm from California. This is something I know how to say, but I was just so nervous in the moment that I was using Google Translate for it. But everyone was so nice. Local people in Việt Nam can speak, especially young people have a level of fluency in English so we were able to communicate pretty effectively, despite some of the language barriers. But I remember they were just interested and wanted to learn more. I honestly wish I could have stayed longer and just been in that moment forever.  I think the last thing I'll add: we just had a little like cute little party moment and I was like, what music do I put on? And so I just put on my regular music that I put on for, folks at home, like all like the gay boys and stuff I hang out with. And I just found that everyone, like Rihanna is universal. Like you put on Rihanna and no matter where you are in the world, people will freak out which I thought was so hilarious.  Hai Vo: A thousand percent agree. I loved everything that you shared, Gene. That question around, yeah, I love that you brought up that question.  As someone who grew up a part of my life in the diaspora, white supremacy and whiteness, it's just, it just happened. It's just every day. Most of the Bạc Xỉu Collective is a lot younger than our group. Most of the country actually is very young. I think a good percentage, if the majority of the country is under 25. I bring that up because I think that there's a level of a cultural revolution happening around art in general in Việt Nam in my experience in the last, let's say last like six years that I've been going almost every other year. And then to be able to meet other queer and trans Viet folks who were born, grew up there, live there, to hear them say things like, Yeah, I want to do drag and I want to do drag forever and this is what's going to free me and liberate me. , that's like very inspiring. I think in many ways, those of us who grew up here or, had time here in the diaspora, whiteness kind of, distracts, makes distractions, , and so , to, hear these young queer, Việt, local folks be so adamant and, and really, , trying, like, they're going to shows, they're making their own shows, they start doing their own events, asking for tickets and working with local shops and local bars to make their dreams happen. The one maybe kind of interesting thing that I want to share that I thought about in your question, Jean, is we met Bạc Xỉu Collective at a time when I went back, with Mơ, also part of QTViet Cafe, end of 2022. And up until that point, I had done visits back starting 2018 after my mom passed and, I wanted this trip to be a bit of a pre trip, kind of a research trip, and getting ready for the bigger trip with the dozen of us that Jean mentioned,. So, the night after we landed, we were introduced to the Bạc Xỉu Collective. A lot of these local Việt drag artists started this collective because they were in houses that had folks who were other than Việt, of them white European folks, and so they just were like, we want to create our own all Việt drag house, and do this show all in Việt. You know, make it bilingual, but centered on Việt-ness. , I think that's what we're trying to do. In the diaspora. I think there's different nuances in the places, but to be able to hear a queer drag Việt show Mostly like 95 percent Việt, and for most of the the space that we were at, was mostly Việt, I was like, oh, this is what it feels like to be at home. It was both and both comforting, exciting, my creative curiosity was going, but also there were moments where I was like, I don't understand that, you know?  I think they experienced their own challenges as artists over there , in trying to center their Việt-nesa and then we have our challenges here too. but they have a lot of freedom and access and connection to their Việt-ness because that's our motherland. During our time there where I was able to bring, parts of our altar that we bring and we practice here as part of our gatherings to honor our ancestors and, It was interesting, before that kiki that Jean mentioned I was asked if I could share about the altar, and then for some reason, I think at the end of the night I realized I didn't share, and then after we danced and catwalked, Some people started leaving. Some of the collective members, noticed the altar, and then they started bowing and recognizing Chị Phụng and Xuân Diệu, and they were wondering who put it together.  I think it was just me noticing them knowing what this is, where I didn't have to explain. Them just honoring them, just taking a minute, like, it was like a minute of our hundreds of minutes that we had together that night. But I just started getting emotional and crying that night because this is a moment where I don't have to explain. There's my kin who get it. And they looked at me after and they're like, well, you're crying. And I'm like, yeah, I'm crying because this practice, this ritual I feel only a few of us get it in the diaspora. What seems so special here in the diaspora is actually just very normal.  They were like, yeah, this is what I know about Chị Phụng and you should look up these other queer ancestors that I didn't know about. And I'm like, oh my God, this is one of the reasons why I wanna be here. So better understand our people. They were like, yeah, look at this up. Look at this up. Like look this, look up this person. Two nights later when we had our show together, we brought elements of the same altar, but Bạc Xỉu also brought things. They brought, their contributions and offerings to the altar, and food. It was a collaborative ritual that we had together and before the show as part of the hype up and the prep. We got to cúng mǎ to honor our ancestors and I'll never forget that moment to be able to practice ritual in addition to the show where we're sharing our expressive creative arts. Everyone knew the importance of why we were doing that and that we come from a deep lineage of queer trans, have probably paved the way and fought for their existence and for our existence to be here. I think that spiritually, that's a way that I felt like I was able to connect over there. I'd also say in your question, Cheryl, I think the last time I heard the the government approves same sex marriage. I would say culturally, it's a whole other story. I think because of colonization, imperialism, um, queerness and transness has been erased. And so I think that why it's so important for us to do this work in the diaspora because, our parents and our elders, they have left a motherland and so there's a gap in culture and understanding, and, it's a harder struggle to justify that actually, no, we have queer, trans, Việt history, and we come from a lineage of queer folks, and I think that for me that cultural work is so important because by sharing the history of our people, by sharing our creative expression, by sharing the struggles of, who we are both here in the diaspora and also in Việt Nam. And a lot of those struggles are around the same things. Family acceptance, belonging, economic justice, employment, , access to resources, access to healthcare, jobs. Those things are actually very similar , in my meeting, in my connecting with queer folks there. Those systems that are, creating those struggles are the same, like they're the same capitalist, Corporate imperialist systems. What I'm hopeful for is that what we're doing as queer and trans Việt folks in the diaspora, connecting with queer and trans Việt folks who are in Việt Nam know– I want to imagine a world without borders. For me the art and the creativity and trying to transform the struggles that we all experience as queer and trans people to stories and actually life ways of resilience. I'm hoping changing hearts and minds. Will ultimately transform practice and policy. The government might be saying one thing, but at home, it's actually a different story. That's why our work is important to try to change heart and minds. I want to get to a place where my dad would be like, okay, yeah, same sex marriage. My child and their friends, are members of the community who are respectful and joyful and wanting to contribute to society, just as much as our, just as much as our queer trans, Việt ancestors have to. Cheryl Truong: Thank you so much for bringing us here, Hai.  You've highlighted some really important point. Colonization capitalism, white supremacy. These are, systems of oppression that while they manifest differently, as you say, they are global in nature and. In escapable and then impact is both here in America and also in Vietnam.  The motherland, like the forces at play are very much the same. I really appreciate the insights that both of you have shared, especially in response to Jean's extremely evocative question about what it means to explore queerness and transness when you're not confronted with whiteness. Hai,, your story about the altar and Bạc Xỉu Collective connection to ancestral practices and rituals. They're embracing of our trans and queer Viet histories. And how. How it creates this deep sense of kinship. I think these are powerful reflections. The diaspora. You know, as you say. As a result of imperialism and capitalism.  Makes us a bit disconnected from these wisdoms at the motherland and what you share truly clarifies. And sharpens. What's up the forces at play and the vast systemic issues that we're confronting. But also, it really deepens my admiration for. The extremely revolutionary work that QTVIet Cafe is doing to bridge this gap and are in our world, filled with borders.  Okay. We're going to take a quick music break. But stay tuned. We'll be right back.   Cheryl Truong: And we're back. You were listening to apex express on 94.1, FM KPFA and online@kpfa.org. You were just listening to change the world by baby Chris.  We are still here with Hai Vo and Jean Pham from QTViet Cafe. For the first half of our show, we were reflecting on what eight years of QTV at cafe means and also learning. And also about the trip that they took together as a collective to Vietnam last year to learn more about trans and queer. Experience of local Vietnamese of local Viet. And of course, as the artists that they all are, they created a film about it. Let's get back to the show.  Speaking of changing hearts and minds, tell me about this documentary that you all created when you were in Việt Nam.  Hai Vo: I think the idea started because, so my parents and my brother left as boat people in 86 and I was born In Iowa in 87 after being sponsored by a Presbyterian Church. I went for the first time to Việt Nam when I was 7 and again when I was 12. I remember my parents were obsessed with camcorders. I don't know if you all have this but, there's still so many VHS tapes that I think I need to digitize, But I think the spirit of homeland trips being documented in my family is such a thing.  When I was thinking about this trip, 2018, when I started coming back when I was 12, it wasn't until 22 years later, when I was 34, that I came back after my mom passed. Going back, I was , curious about how people document their experience going back to the homeland and these days with reels and social media, people doing daily blogs and just all the things, I was curious. But I think there's an element of that kind of old school, just document everything. And then coming back here a few weeks later, just over dinner, just see everything unedited. Um, so, yeah, that was part of the inspiration and then fortunately, 1 of our collective members, and, and members Tracy Nguyen and folks with the Sunkist SunKissed,they've been documenting the QTViet Cafe experience since the beginning, really.  So much of what's on YouTube and online of our work is, through their documentation. Basically was like, Sal, I don't have a lot of money. We don't have a lot of money, but here's a little bit of money that I fundraise so far and we can keep fundraising as part of the collective effort. What do you say about trying to document this experience with us? I think what's so powerful about the collective is by it for us. Knowing that Sal and other folks who practice videography and film are already part of the collective and are already interested in a trip, I think, it's easier to share and connect on the goal of connecting with other queer and trans folks.  We've never done a trip like this and then two, we've never documented a trip like this. Everything was new. And we were going into it. We had like ideas of how we wanted to film this and there were some proposals and we Filmed some of the activities that we had before the trip like some of our planning retreats and some of our fundraising events. Sal did some interviews of how we felt before in all the feelings of like anxious and excited, nervous. And I ultimately was just like, Sal, here's our best agenda, here's like a guide of what each day will look like. Ultimately, I want to give all of us a creative permission just experience this trip and to let's do our best to document it. And as long as we're truthful and honest. As long as we can just share our full humanhood, whatever happens on the other side, I think will be amazing. After that, it just had a little bit of relief knowing that. Honestly, we were inspired by Videos that other queer trans folks were doing in Việt Nam. It's like abstract and editorial and like voiceover and like, it's just like, just put it out there. That was part of our inspo. I think just as much as, our identities and sexualities and gender are fluid, I wanted to encourage, the film and documentation to be just as fluid. Fortunately, we had folks who were filming and doing sound, and with the support of , everyone in the collective, we're all taking photos and doing videos. We're, hoping to just share honestly and report not just our experience, but also share the struggles that we experienced as queer and trans people, the struggles that queer and trans people, in Việt Nam experience to the power of what it means to collaborate together and, um, do something historic and do a first event there ever. we hope to share our post trip reflections of what it's meant for us.  Jean Pham: Yeah, it was just like a fun process for us to take upon this trip and each of us in our own way, document it. QTViet Cafe has different disciplines of artists– filmmakers, photographers, writers, dancers, and so forth, that one of the things we were also asked to do was, to take our own photos and to share it throughout the entire process.  For me it was a different experience because this is my first time going to Việt Nam. My parents came here in 89 and I was born in 95. I guess if you're not a part of the diasporic Việt Namese American population, there are certain, like, ideas held about Việt Nam that some people from the older generation have about, Việt Nam as , a socialist country. And also, like, what it means for people who are refugees to be reckoned with, how their country has transformed. And so I've never gone back to Việt Nam because my parents honestly thought this is like a lost country. It's not home for us anymore. And so a lot of ideas about Việt Nam and what it is now, we're, Reproduced and given to me and of course, like it's a lot of unpacking too, right? Because I honestly don't believe a lot of these held ideas that they have about Việt Nam. And it was important for me to want to experience that. Việt Nam for myself, in a way where I could truly see what the country is and not in a way that necessarily demonizes it or even romanticizes it. A lot of like diasporic poetry and art and writing I feel kind of like hinges or teeters that like point of almost romanticizing their ancestral country. And I think it's important for us to unpack all these like held beliefs and biases. In college, I did a lot of poetry, slam poetry, and I always recognized the language barrier is a big part of access, not being able to fully understand or communicate with our parents is a tension that many like second or third generation Americans face. The way that I think QTViet Cafe interacts with that is pretty ingenious, but also very, what one should do, which is just simply to learn the language. We need to teach each other the language so that we can communicate with each other in Việt Namese. That was another big part of our preparation too.  Some collective members. held Việt Namese classes for us to talk to each other, talk to locals, talk to other queer folks. And also the language is important because as much as we have our own lingo and slang as queer and trans communities here, so do they in Việt Nam, in Việt Namese. With the documentary, not everyone has the same experience, right? For me, it was my first time. So I was trying to visit places where my parents grew up, trying to see the city from my own eyes. Some people had a lot more connection with Việt Nam and had visited it, Việt Nam and Saigon many times before. So in a documentary, there are certain members of the collective that have like more keyed interviews that kind of talk about that difference because even within our collective, we're not monolithic in terms of our experiences and you can see the different ways like we're shaped by it.  I think the last thing I'll share with you is definitely, and Hai, and I kind of talked about this. It's in conversation pretty often, but a lot of eateries, Việt Namese restaurants in the US are kind of stuck in time because a lot of them are, restaurants that are Staffed and created by diasporic Việt Namese refugees. The food has like definitely developed a lot in Việt Nam. And so has the language. It almost feels like, you know, us in a diaspora, us here in California, we're in like a time bubble. And going to Việt Nam breaks that. And lets us experience what does Việt Nam look like now in like 2024, 2023. Now that it has like modernized. You know, most people, most queer and trans Việt Namese people we've met were either in underground economies or they're gig workers or they're freelance workers. I think there's a lot of parallels between the ways that queer and trans people move here and also in Việt Nam. Although there is definitely like that point of us visiting Việt Nam as Americans. or people who have American passports, there is a class dynamic to it. So yeah, it, I would say part of the complication is There are things we were trying to resolve within our own bodies by going back to Việt Nam, but also things we had to reckon with, like the differences too, and how, I think for me, one of the most jarring things was realizing that in Saigon, there are provinces or like neighborhood, entire neighborhoods that are home to just people who immigrated out from their countries and had access to a larger degree of wealth and who are actively perhaps displacing Saigonese locals and realizing that if I wasn't careful, then these are structural issues that can be created if we don't examine our place like in context. Yeah. And I'll check there. Yeah.  Cheryl Truong: Thanks so much for sharing Jean and Hai. That's just about all the time we have left tonight. For those interested in seeing the premiere of their Đồng Quể documentary, learning more about QTViet Cafe. And or celebrating eight years of queer trans Viet magic, please join QTViet Cafe on September 1st in Oakland, California. They will be having an exciting celebration. ? Hai, how can people learn more? Hai Vo: Yeah, we're excited to invite everyone to our eight year anniversary. We're premiering Đồng Quể, which is the film of their Việt Nam trip. We are planning to have it, on Sunday, September 1st. 5 to 9 at Firehouse Oakland in Chinatown. And, yeah, we're live on the tickets and registration.  It'll be up on our IG, @qtvietcafe, it'll be up on our Facebook, it'll be up on our website. Folks can also subscribe to our newsletter too via our website. Yeah, September 1st, Sunday, evening time, 5 to 9, Chinatown at Firehouse in Oakland.  Cheryl Truong: Thank you all. So thank you both so much for being here for coming on the show. And for our listeners, please join us September 1st at the firehouse in Oakland. You hear all of these stories, these intimate details at Jean and Hai have shared with us income to live. For those interested in learning more. QTViet Cafe's socials Facebook, Instagram website, all that good stuff will be in the show notes as well as a link to their registration form. As well as their bilingual letter for a free Palestine. That was written in collaboration with members of QTViet Cafe, the Dallas, Asian American historical society, and also various other community supporters. This letter is bilingual. It starts off with dear family. And is meant to catalyze an intergenerational conversation about Palestine. Everyone has a different relationship story to our families and lineage, so this resource is a conversation starter so please check it out.  It'll also be in the show notes.   Thank you all so much for listening and I'll see you next time. .  Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!  The post APEX Express – August 22, 2024 – 8 Years of QTViet Cafe! appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – August 15, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – August 8, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight we present our sister podcast Continental Shifts. Hosts Gabriel and Estella speak with Tavae Samuelu.   Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the Apex Express.   Swati Rayasam: [00:00:35] Good evening, everyone. You're listening to APEX Express Thursday nights at 7 PM. My name is Swati Rayasam and I'm the special editor for this episode. Tonight, we're wrapping up the podcast continental shifts created by bi-coastal educators, Gabriel Anthony Tanglao and Estella Owoimaha-Church who embark on a voyage in search of self, culture and the ancestors. Last time we featured the concept's podcast, Gabe and Estella, talked with union leader and educator Yan Yii about creating culturally relevant classrooms, the importance and emotional toll of teachers being a social safety net for marginalized students, and the ever-growing union presence in education. Tonight. They're talking to Tavae Samuelu about what it will take to organize across ethnic groups, specifically Pacific Islander and Asian communities, beyond ethnic or national lines. And what future we're visioning for when the US empire falls. If this is your first touch into the conshifts podcast, I strongly recommend diving into the apex archives on kpfa.org. Backslash programs, backslash apex express to check out the previous episodes. And also to check out the podcast on ConShift's site at continentalshifts.podbean.com or anywhere podcasts are found. But for now, let's get to the show.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:02:05] When Toni Morrison talks about Invisible Man and asked this question of like invisible to who? Like, what do I care if whiteness sees me? Also know I come across folks who are like, I say API cause I was taught that that was inclusive. And I was like, I bet you a PI didn't tell you that [laughs].   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:02:27] What will it take to organize across ethnic groups, specifically Pacific Islander and Asian communities. In this episode, we rap with the amazing Tavae Samuelu to strategize ways we might organize AAPI folks across and beyond ethnic or national lines.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:48] What up, what up? Tālofa lava, o lo'u igoa o Estella. My pronouns are she/her/hers, sis, uso.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:02:53] What's good, family? This is Gabriel, kumusta? Pronouns he/him.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:02:56] Tavae Samuelu is the daughter of a pastor from Leo Lumoenga and a nurse from Salemoa in Samoa as the executive director of Empowering Pacific Islander Communities, she's a passionate advocate for Pacific Islanders and is committed to liberation for all. Tavae was born, raised, and currently resides on Tongva territory. She credits her time on unceded Ohlone land for her political consciousness. During the pandemic, she has learned that her most important title is Auntie Vae. I had the pleasure of meeting Tavae at the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance Conference in Vegas a couple of years ago when I sat in on her workshop related to organizing Pacific Islander communities. It was, and I'm sure I've told her this by now, one of the first times in my life I have ever felt seen as a Samoan woman. Uso, thank you so much for joining us today. Please go ahead and take a few minutes to further introduce yourself to our listeners.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:03:57] Thank you, Stella. I've heard you say that before and it always makes me tear up [laughs]. That's also probably the most rewarding aspect of this job, of this community work, to be able to hear from people that they feel seen and validated. By, you know, by what we do and what, by what we put out there in the world. As I said, you know, currently residing on Tongva territory, what is momentarily known as Long Beach, California, until we get this land back to who it rightfully belongs to. You know I'm really clear and really intentional in this pro indigenous approach of naming the original stewards of this land because it's important to me that we know who to return the land to when this empire falls and that we're really clear, right? Not to just be in solidarity as a performative aspect, but naming our indigenous siblings who continue to exist, who are incredibly resilient and are still the experts on the best way to take care of this land and each other and how to be good relatives.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:05:13] She said, “when the empire fall,” I went [laughs].   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:05:16] When the empire, when the empire falls. When…so.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:05:19] I mean, let me credit to Dakota Camacho, who taught me to say “momentarily known as” I was like, yeah, that is a manifestation, if ever. I like that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna borrow that. Let me also cite Dakota Camacho for that.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:05:33] Tavae I would love to know just a little more about your backstory. What brought you to this work in particular, organizing in the Pacific Island community and spaces.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:05:43] My path was circuitous. I think there are a couple of milestones that are important to be explicit about. I've been Pacific Islander my entire life, right? Whatever that means to be born into racism and understand that race is a social construct. And so what it means to be Pacific Islander has also changed every single moment of my life. I would say that the way that I language and articulate my Pacific Islander identity most definitely needs to be credited to black feminist thought and that despite being Pacific Islander my entire life [laughs], it wasn't really until, you know, I was an undergrad at Cal and an ethnic studies major and introduced to Audre Lorde and bell H=hooks and Angela Davis and especially Kimberlé Crenshaw, right? The person who so often is not credited enough for coining intersectionality. But I want to be really clear, I didn't understand Pacific Islander until I got language from these black feminist thought leaders. Folks who were so so brilliant about naming what it means to walk around in a world that is both racist and sexist. And then, through an ethnic studies class that was on time on American History, right? I'm a first year Cal and it also meant I went kindergarten through 12th grade not hearing a single thing about Samoans. And had to get to my freshman year of college to see anything about us and having a lot of critical questions about why that is right. And everything leading to one thing or another. I was like, oh, well, there's not enough of us in higher education. So, well, why aren't there enough of us in higher education? I know. Brilliant smart, talented Pacific Islanders. So you start getting into like the systemic and institutional barriers around. So there was a lot of critical race theory consumption that happened for me really in gaining an elitist language for things that I experienced my entire life, right? And then after getting black feminist thought, then being able to read about Pacific Islanders through Epeli Hau'ofa and Sia Fiegel and Haunani Kay Trask and so many ancestors and elders who really blazed a trail around things, who became definite, and more recently, Teresia Teaiwa. So I say that, and there's also a piece of it where I would love to say that there was like this drive that came from this really positive place, but a lot of it was just anger. Like that initial phase of building your political consciousness where you wake up and realize how up is, oh, man like, what can I do? And then sort of moving throughout these other phases of political consciousness building where then I'm like, oh, but there are ways that I participate in the systems that disenfranchise us, but also that internal work and still being there. And so even most of my organizing and like even professional career has actually been in multicultural spaces outside of the Pacific Islander community. And it's really only with EPIC that I've been able to deeply engage in that. And the irony of being called Palangi or the Samoan word for white my entire life and then never feeling Pacific Islander enough and now being charged as the leader of a national Pacific Islander organization that is frequently asked to define PI, so, you know, that is the irony of the universe for me.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:09:07] There was so much, so much there. Our listeners cannot hear me like banging on the table and snapping and, but, again, you are another guest who has affirmed the absolute importance of ethnic studies in our education, in our process, and you are another guest who has affirmed the absolute necessity of black feminist thought, like in all of our upbringing and conscious awareness rising. And like maybe there's a case study here in season one [laughs] that's formulating on how we became the educators and organizers that we are. Gabriel, you were a social studies classroom teacher, and then moved into taking on union labor work like heavily, what was some of your motivation or inspiration to make the move from the classroom and step heavy into union labor organizing?   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:10:16] If I'm keeping it 100 percent real, I didn't want to leave the classroom. I loved the classroom. I still love the classroom. It was the foundation of just my passion in specifically the Bergenfield community, which we've talked about in the past episodes has a larger Filipino population. So not only was education, just a pathway to be able to help uplift, engage my people, young folks in my community. But the union organizing space in Bergenfield was also formative in allowing me to engage on a broader scale. So that said, when making the transition out of the classroom, which was a difficult decision, to step into the union organizing space on a statewide level, it was really just with the possibility of being able to support educators on a larger scale and have a broader impact and specifically in my role in professional development, I consider this the only type of full time union work that I would leave the classroom for because it's the closest to the classroom. And in professional development, I think there's this old school perception on PD that's really sit and receive canned PowerPoints. And I feel like this conversation around organizing, there's actually a really fascinating exploration between facilitation, education, and organizing. They all pull from the similar skill sets, right? Sharing resources, bringing people together in shared learning, collective understanding, trying to figure out how the collective wisdom can allow us to just transform the community spaces, the up society in which we live. All of the things, Tavae set it off so we can do that she established some new rules. But to keep it relatively brief, I would say the professional development role and the opportunity to organize on a larger scale is the only reason that I considered leaving the classroom.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:12:30] I know you, you touched on this already, but I'll go ahead and ask it and I'll ask both of you and I'll toss it to Tavae first. In what ways does your culture and your identity inform the work or vice versa?   Tavae Samuelu: [00:12:46] I think that it always has. There was a point at which I thought I needed to come to EPIC and sometimes that's still true. That I needed to come to EPIC in order to give primacy to my Pacific Islander identity, I had spoken earlier about most of my professional career and even like, as a student organizing was done in multicultural spaces that were, you know, in, in this sort of umbrella way identified as black and brown. But they weren't spaces where I was PI, I was like, you know, most often a woman of color, more broadly, a person of color, but there was never really an understanding of Pacific Islander. Whether people knew it or not, everything I was doing was in a very Pacific Islander way. From the way I speak to things that people would have identified as very humble. I was like, oh, that's just how PIs do it, right? That there's a protocol to things. The deference to elders, the, I love my best friends says, all I do is quote people [laughs]. But there's this part to me where it's like, everybody quotes people I just cite my sources. But there's a part to it too where even citing your sources is very Pacific Islander in that you are naming the genealogy of something, of a thought, of a practice, of a story, right? That you are always going back to the roots of where you came from and that conclusion. And also like a lot of ways where things that I was recognized for was in storytelling. It's like, oh, that's a really good. And folks not realizing like, oh, that's, that comes from me being Pacific Islander. Like that comes from me being Samoan. Not in spite of, but because of it. And so now there's a lot of ways where the work is defining Pacific Islander. And this other really interesting piece that EPIC does leadership development. That means we work with a lot of young people and the vast majority of our young people are second, third, fourth generation, right? Fairly removed from their indigeneity. And because of that, growing up in diaspora, in particular, growing up in the U. S., that there's always this thirst for Pacific Islander culture, and that's what they come to us for but also this notion and kind of this living conversation about what is PI, right? And that we ask them, and then many of them not feeling Pacific Islander enough, like that being the through line. But when you ask, like, what is Pacific Islander, is advocacy Pacific Islander, is education Pacific Islander? And oftentimes hearing from them, really troubling narratives that they've internalized about what PI is, and then having to untether and tease out, like, where did you get that from? Where did that story come from? Did it come from PIs? Very often, not, right? That, that what it means to have to constantly interrogate the ways that white supremacy controls how you understand yourself, controls your story, right? And so, you know, what does it mean that to our young people, that being PI means automatically and inherently means being part of the military, because that's what it means to be a warrior culture. Or that being PI is playing football or that being like that many of the narratives that they had taken to be factual were also grounded in the consumption of their bodies and wanting to trouble that notion. Right? And then also empower them to participate in the creation of a new narrative. So we sort of sit at this place where our work is to both remember culture, spread that remembering, and also watch it evolve and empower our young people to participate in that evolution and feel ownership of it.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:17:05] I'm just gonna have a real moment right now on this episode and just say I wish I had a rewind button right now just to run that back because I'm trying to process some of the knowledge you just dropped and thinking about the ways that our culture and identity inform the ways we show up in spaces, specifically the ways that our perception is grounded through the lens of white supremacy culture and the consumption of our bodies is the way that you framed it, but how do we transform those narratives to be grounded in our own indigenous authentic cultural lens. So just Tavae, thank you for jumping in there. I was thinking about this question in what ways does my culture and identity inform my work? And I'm going to keep it real with you that I'm still exploring that right now. I recognize that the knowledge of self, the knowledge of Filipino history is something that I am becoming more familiar with and drawing more connections with in my adult life. Of course, being Filipino, having the cultural roots be present in my life, but also being a first generation person in a predominantly white suburban area, assimilation is something that is very much the reality for first generation folks. It wasn't until college, it was an educator, a professor Osei, on the literature of African peoples that started to help spark that critical race consciousness and sent me down a journey to become more race conscious and explore that. So to respond in short, the cultural identity, I'm still exploring that now, but I will say this. that the more that I learn, the more connections that I'm starting to realize. Being that I'm now heavily involved in the union spaces, and that's been a big part of my journey recently, I've come to learn about the farm workers and the Filipino organizers across Hawaii and the West Coast that have been pivotal in American history, labor organizing that I wasn't aware of. It was actually a moment of pride as I learned about that through APALA so APALA was one of the places where I was educated about this history and I'm realizing a lot of the connections that I'm making in my people, cultural roots.There's something there that I'm still unpacking right now, still exploring right now, and that's part of this Continental Shifts podcast. It's a real time exploration of how our culture and identity inform the ways we show up now. So that's, that's how I think about it in this moment.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:19:56] I love that and I think even as you were saying that what comes up for me is a lot of stuff too. That's also what's unique about EPIC is because I know our young people everywhere else they go will tell them that culture is a deficit. Right. It's the thing that you need to put away in order to succeed. And that we're also really clear of like, well, we are asking them to define success. It's not about aspiring to whiteness. Right. That I'm not trying to replace American exceptionalism with PI exceptionalism. And this other piece around culture is like, culture is not a costume. But it's most definitely a uniform for me, right? Like that when I go to the Capitol, if I'm lobbying in Sacramento, if I'm in D. C., I'm wearing my mom's fulakasi so that everybody can see, right? So to bring her with me as like a physical reminder. But also so my people see me there, right? Like a pulakasi, you wear it for ceremony. You also wear it to do faius or work when you're in service, right? So if I'm wearing a pulakasi, you know that I'm there for teltua. You know that I'm there to be in service, and that signaling to our young people, and then like the ceremony part of it, right? There's a sacredness to it. So if I'm in it, you also know, like, that you know what I'm there for. You know I'm about that business if we're, if we're in it. And you know, it tells other people, like, yo, this is how much we belong in the capital that I didn't put on, you know, I didn't put on some pantsuit or a blazer or whatever the case so that white people will recognize me. I put on a fulakasi so you all could see me. Right? And I think, and I've talked to this to a couple of folks about it, right? Like when Toni Morrison talks about Invisible Man and asked this question of like invisible to who? Like, what do I care if whiteness sees me? Like, the first time white people saw us, they decided, like, we were savage and they needed to take our land from us. It's actually not safe for white people to see me. Like, I just need our folks to see each other, right? And this other piece too, around narratives and story and culture, right? Like, that's the importance of APALA, of EPIC, of, of Ethnic Studies, is like, it'll give you the stories white supremacy never wanted you to know about yourself, right? That, like, white supremacy will tell people about the Aloha spirit, and that, like, Kanaka are just so grateful for tourism to have you on their land. It's like, yo, my favorite stories about Native Hawaiians are when they killed Captain Cook, cause that just like stepped out of line and tried to take too much right.   Like, those are my favorite stories. And so, you know, they'll tell you about us being warriors to recruit our young people for empire, like, yo, if you're gonna talk about words, talk about the Polynesian Panthers who stood toe to toe, inspired by the Black Panther Party to surveil the cops who were harassing, deporting and doing all of this up to our community. Or like tell the stories about our healers, right? Big Pharma will copyright things that we've been using to treat and heal our people for years so that it's not accessible on our lands. Like those are the stories where I'm just like, yo, I need all of our folks to know more of this. And I think even to that note Estella and I got to, after that APALA workshop got to reconnect through LE GaFa. And LE GaFa is also really important, like all of these language revitalization programs that are coming up, because even in a Fa'a Samoa or like a Samoan context, the three pillars of identity are land, family, and language, right? And so many of our young people come to us, you know, if you're in diaspora, that means you, you're divorced from your land. Many have lost language and then family is complicated. Family is real complicated [laughs]. And so how did we also become that space of redefining Samoa?   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:23:36] Oh, sis. So much has been said, but when you were speaking earlier, I thought back to how I felt when I first met you. And for the first time I was seen by my sister. You know what I mean? Like, I have never been in space with other Samoan women and felt at home until then. And then in thinking about LE GaFa and why I chose to take the class at 30, trying to learn a language is hard at 30, trying to learn Samoan at 30 oof! It is one of the biggest challenges I've ever accepted in my life. But every time we are in class, things just feel like they were already in my bones. And I didn't have a name for it or I didn't know what it was. So folks are always telling me, Stella, you're a storyteller. And you know, obviously I'm a theater major. Ended up in storytelling. And it's definitely a part of my practice as an educator. But like, now I know, well, that was in my bones, that is my lineage, that's my heritage, that's my ancestry. From both sides, you know, you know what I mean? I'm Nigerian and Samoan, I get it strong from both sides of who I am. I just love holding on to that thought that all of these things that someone tried to rip away from me, tell me was not okay, they couldn't because it is deeply innate. It is literally in… in me and it cannot be taken. And so my journey throughout my life to it was just that. It was something that was misplaced and I just had to find it again and I'm happy that I am there and to what Gabriel said earlier, that was definitely a reason why we chose to start this podcast because I can see it on my social media feeds, that there is a thirst, especially among young Samoans, to find out more about what's going on, I now have so many, oh, Samoan daily words and Samoan proverb, you know what I mean? Like so many folks I'm following and people are also trying to learn the language, I'm meeting and making connection with random Samoan artists on Instagram who now are in the LE GaFa class. And like everyone is now connected through social media. Because all of us, like you said, we are living in diaspora and those three parts of ourselves, we are now having to find. They're misplaced and we're in search of them and are lucky and blessed to be able to find each other so that we can rediscover those pieces of ourselves.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:26:09] Tavae, when you were talking about the different stories that aren't told that should be told, you got me thinking about Lapu Lapu in the Philippine Islands, the chieftain that defeated, Magellan and stemmed off the first wave of colonizers coming through to the Philippines. I didn't learn about that in my, in my fourth grade class when I had to do a history research project. I learned about Magellan discovering the Philippine islands and that's not the story. Tell me the story about Gabriela Silang and all of the Filipino revolutionaries. So I was feeling what you were saying earlier. And also, with the deficit narratives that are placed on us, Dr. Tara Yasso, who introduced the Community Cultural Wealth Framework, the idea to challenge the dominant culture's narrative, the deficit thinking around us, and recognize the value-based, asset-based, capital-based thinking of cultural wealth that we're bringing to spaces, that's real.   Swati Rayasam: [00:27:07] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online at kpfa.org.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:27:22] Tavae, I do have a question about your organizing work with EPIC. That's a dope name, by the way just got to shout that out. But what success have you and EPIC had in organizing across PI communities?   Tavae Samuelu: [00:27:37] Credit for the name goes to Ono Waifale. You know, so EPIC started in 2009 by a group of young Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander leaders, mostly in higher ed, Ono, and a lot of it's sort of like the seeds of it planted, in the Pacific Islander leadership pipeline. So there's like a lot of hands that went into building it. Ono Waifale was one of the young people who went through that. And so the name EPIC comes from him. You know, something about the word success gives me trepidation. Like I have a thing about it, and maybe this is also me having a hard time just discerning between, humility and insecurity of like when you call something a success that people come and like want to hold you accountable to that. There are things that I feel good about, things that I feel proud about and. You know, it's my own recovering perfectionism that has me hesitant about it. That has me like, Oh, if I call that a success, there are so many things that I would have nitpicked about it, that I would done differently. You know, I'm always going to say the young people are my favorite part of this work of EPIC as an organization. On like that Huey P Newton, like, the revolution is always in the hands of young people. There's also a way that they are the best compass and litmus test, right? In that audacity that young people have of it could be better. And I'm just like, Oh, that's dope. Like, cause I think there's also a lot of ways where you know, I'm always an aspiring radical elder and trying to figure out how I can be that radical elder right now. But recognizing, a lot of the markers for adulthood and maturity are about sometimes, like, how much closer you get it to status quo, to like being more served by existing systems. And so there's a way in which I'm going to age out of this role. And I'm always looking for the young person who's going to take it on and keep up that mantle of demanding more, right. Of keeping us accountable to that. And so I think it's always the young people who are like over inspiring and also so brilliant and have so much heart around this and are such a good reminder because there's also ways in which they're closer to the problem because of their youth, right? And so because they're closer to the problem, they have more solutions and they're also a better way of vetting the viability of something that I might think is so great, but I'm doing all this grass top of what do I know if I'm spending all my time talking to funders and elected officials?   Like, I need the young people who tell me stories about I couldn't do homework because I had to do files for my mom and my grandma. And then I also had to take care of my little siblings and like, that's the kind of where I'm like, Oh, that's actually what should be dictating our policy agenda, right? Of like, how young people are thriving in this world, right? Because they're always going to be the marker of a healthy society, right? And that because they are part of that most vulnerable group, because they inherit so much . And then also the ways that we're developing young people into adult allies. Like, how are these young people also then looking at themselves of like, oh, let me be that, like, that OG that all the younger folks can come to as well. Like that they're preparing themselves also to take up the mantle and they feel good about it. Like that they feel ready and maybe if not ready, that they feel supported like, when they take that on, all the adults aren't going to disappear. And then there's also like a relativity to it, right? Like, in many spaces, I'm the youngest ED, or I'm the youngest “leader” whatever that means. And so there's me kind of also feeling young in that way, but then sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm the adult in the room [laughs]. Lamenting that ugh I gotta be the grownup. So I think that piece too is a weird in between that, that I'm in, but like I I think those are the parts of EPIC that feel good. And I think this speaks to the API aspect of this episode and where we're going to be diving deeper in. It's always a success to me when I've got more accomplices and allies for the Pacific Islander community. Right. When I have more people beyond PI's that are asking about us, that are fighting for us. Right. And that's a solidarity and then, you know, this is also an inspiration and something I like feel good about the direction that we're moving in is being really explicit about our organization being pro black and pro Indigenous and anti racist. Not because it's trending, because Imma be in this, [laughs] like even after it stops trending, but because it also signals to folks that we're a safe place to land. That if we say it out loud, you can hold us accountable to it, but you also know that you can come here and talk about and go there with us.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:32:48] What you said about young people, I think, is my favorite part about being a classroom teacher. It is, I think, exactly for that reason. And I can sit and sit and lesson plan, lesson plan, lesson plan, get to class, and kids are like, nah. Now you, that's corny. You thought it was, you thought it was great, but Miss, let me tell you, but then I love that they feel absolutely comfortable telling me that it's not as dope as I thought it was [laughs]. And then we, you know, I just let them take over the lesson at that point. What are the critical issues that you foresee us needing to mobilize around? Maybe it's right now or in the immediate future.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:33:28] Yeah, I guess what's present for me based on this conversation has me thinking about education, thinking about the stories and the narratives that are out there, and thinking about decolonizing curriculum as a primary frontline issue, but I actually need to shout out Kai, who was one of our guests, that decolonizing curriculum, if we flip that framing to indigenizing curriculum, is perhaps a better approach in terms of how we are more historically and culturally responsive in our approach. Why is that important? I think it's important to mobilize because I'm starting to recognize that the narratives that are being shared throughout public education in this country really do have a major impact on perpetuating white supremacy culture and continuing the violence that we're seeing. So, the obvious physical violence, but the forms of emotional violence and trauma that are just part of the mythology of the ways this nation state perpetuates white supremacy, patriarchal culture, capitalist system at large. So, I feel like part of my educator roots always calls me to that. But I think because Tavae and Estella, you're making sure we're grounded in understanding the youth perspectives that's present on my right now as a critical issue. And that's also going to be now and forever, perhaps, right? Oh wait, no, actually, Tavae, I'm gonna take some learning from what you shared at the beginning. The empire, when it falls, right? We're preparing for when it falls. So I'll just, I'll leave it there.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:35:17] I think right now, like, educators across the nation, an immediate charge is to pass ethnic, like, ethnic studies has to be it everywhere, across the board, preschool to 14, like, mandatory, we've got to make sure that ethnic studies, um, so whatever state association across all of our unions. When ethnic studies ends up on your legislative body on the floor, yes on ethnic studies and push it and make sure that, it is what it's supposed to be and not some watered down, BS where you've taken out words like anti blackness and white supremacy. Let's make sure that. Every child has access to that, and it is what it's supposed to be because, like you said, I'm not trying to hear about Magellan discovering some he didn't discover in the first place. I'm trying to learn my whole truth, and it'd be great if I could get it, you know, starting at preschool instead of having to go, like Tavae put it earlier, I had to get that elite language in order to name the stuff. Like, I shouldn't have to go all the way to Graduate school, undergrad to figure out who the hell I am and then do something with that. So ethnic studies, I think, is the thing that needs to happen like right now.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:36:43] Well, I guess I'm also thinking about this ethnic studies piece too, because I fully support it and I know there's like a save PI studies coalition full of brilliant, like PI educators, also like very much Manawahine which folks should definitely follow. I think there's this piece too, where if you're going to mandate ethnic studies, I also need a pipeline for teachers of color and not just a pipeline, but Right, to support and retain teachers of color. Because there's this concern that I have too of what does it mean that most teachers are white? Like that's the other part, right? I was like, oh, white people are, I've never met a white person who teaches ethnic studies well. Never. I don't even know if it's possible, but you'd have to break yourself to do that, right? And also to think back of, like, the origins of ethnic studies in the 1969, the Third World Liberation Front. What it was created to respond to, the fact that it was also meant to be a college, not a department of, what does it mean to do ethnic studies in biology, right? Like, what does it mean to do ethnic studies as a lens through which we observe everything, right? Because if you have ethnic studies, you actually don't need US history anymore. Like, if you have ethnic studies, you don't need European history anymore, because ethnic studies is all of that, right? It's all of that. It also, you know, I agree, Ethnic studies it taught me a set of values and a way to look at the world and not just stories, right? It made me question all the things of like, what is essentially like the propaganda that our young people receive in formal education spaces [laughs]. And so I say this too, of like, yes, absolutely, all of that, it should be accessible, it should be invested in, it should be from us, there should be a naming of the fact that the US and education systems are, traditional education systems are invested in and fans of revisionist white supremacist history and that there's simultaneous campaigns that need to happen. And I defer to you all in your expertise and brilliance as educators. Right.   Every issue is a critical issue right now. Everything. You know, especially like COVID-19 and Pacific Islanders, I think in the context of this episode, in this podcast, this conversation, I'm at an impasse with Asian Pacific Islander or API, the terminology as an aggregate has been around since, you know, 1970s ish, and for me, because it's been around that long, it means that, API spaces and organizations have had since the 1970s to figure it out. So we're in 2021 right now and I'm having conversations with folks about what about PI and like there's a request for patience that just frankly is not fair. There's also just, like, this dynamic that doesn't get investigated. So when I talk about being at an impasse, it's that PIs already don't do API, that data disaggregation is actually just a request for data to catch up to the ways we already organize ourselves as communities API is a false promise and a site of erasure for many communities, not just Pacific Islanders, right? That Southeast Asian, South Asians, Filipinos as well get erased in these things, right? That even under API, we were still actually just being held responsible for a majority East Asian representation. And that it doesn't investigate the inequitable dynamic that exists between and AA and PI so this impasse is that the work that we do in advocacy is in recognition of the fact that power and resources are still distributed and disseminated through API. So we have a critical conversation to have as a community because PIs are already not using PI, and it's actually Asian Americans that use API and that it doesn't feel very good, these accountability conversations of calling folks in of like, how can we be good relatives? How can we talk about, because there's also like, you know, Asian American spaces aren't talking about colonization, like the PI as a colonized people, all the forms of racism that we experience being facilitated through that means, and, you know, if we're real, that some of our PI nations are colonized by Asian Americans, like not American, but like Asian nations, right? That there's like some healing that needs to happen. And so this, I don't know that it's a critical issue so much as like a critical conversation that needs to occur in our communities that is inclusive of PIs. Cause I also know I come across folks who are like, I say API cause I was taught that that was inclusive. And I was like, I bet you a PI didn't tell you that. So, yeah, you know, I think about that in the context of this episode, but there's this other piece too of like, You know, my family and I had COVID back in August, and so that was its own, I don't know that I say wake up call, because I, like, what's the humble way to say, like, I've been awake? It was asking this question of, like, what facilitated our survival, right? And a lot of actually what came to me was around labor. Was around union organizing and those wins of like we survived because I got a livable wage. I have paid sick leave I have like health insurance I have all of these things that I'm really clear were won by unions were made possible by labor and they're treated as privileges right or even like speaking English Like, all of these things that I was just like sitting with, like, oh, those are actually now shaping our demands of how we are going to move our advocacy work, or, you know, that we're housed, all of these things where I was like, oh, these are actually, there's not one critical issue, because the insidious nature of racism and poverty is that it could manifest itself in so many ways in our community that lead to premature death, and in that, like, Ruthie Wilson Gilmore way where she defines racism as the set of systems that lead to premature death. So that being like, oh, those are all the critical issues for me.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:43:12] We need to, we, we're going to have to like come up with a syllabus for this episode, like to drop this [laughs] episode next week that has everyone cited all the articles and all the things listed so that we can like, yeah, I'm disseminating a syllabus with this episode. And I think that you were, you were right in that. First of all the disaggregation of data is something that is a theme that has come up on nearly every episode too in this podcast. It was another reason why, when Gabriel and I met, that was one of the first conversations we had because I have been very vocal in our caucus that there is some healing and reconciliation needs to happen. There is a reckoning that needs to happen. We need to deal with the anti blackness and et cetera, et cetera. In our caucus, right? And the fact that this caucus is meant to represent too many dang people and you try to squeeze us all together and make, like, all of our issues one issue, and it just does not work like that for all of the reasons that you said, but it doesn't mean you said, how can we be good relatives? It doesn't mean that moving forward, we can't be good relatives and figure this out. I think you're right. We've got to stop and have the conversation, before we can really move forward. And it's probably gonna be a long conversation. It's going to be a long conversation and one that happens continuously and in various spaces, but it definitely needs to happen moving forward aside from what you've already shared with us, what do you think it will take to increase the visibility of our communities and mobilize PI people around some of the critical issues that you've already talked about.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:45:08] So Estella, your question has me thinking, and the energy from this episode in particular has me fired up, if I'm keeping it real, that if we're talking about visibility for our communities, obviously organizing is at the core of that, making sure that we lift up and create spaces for our people to come together and discover that collective wisdom within our own respective communities. But the fire that you all lit right now has me thinking that just being unapologetically and fearlessly courageous in the face of white supremacy culture within our own spaces, whether that's in the organizations, institutions, businesses, all of the places that we exist. I'm recognizing actually in this moment that one of the things that Tavae said earlier about not being seen by white supremacy institutions is actually safer, which is also very true in the way that things manifest. But what I'm feeling right now is increasing visibility. We're in a moment where, we're in this moment where our ancestors have prepared us to do battle in the ways that we are in our generation to try to disrupt the colonizers in our own respective ways. So those are my thoughts.   Tavae Samuelu: [00:46:34] Well, you know, I think the part of your question that I'm grappling with is this visibility piece, right? Because there are a lot of ways where I feel like our community is actually hyper visible, right? Like we've got The Rock, we've got Jason Momoa, we've got like all of these like really visible figures in our community who are also like very loud about our culture. And so there's this piece where I sit with is it that we need to be visible or is it like in this, man, I don't want to cite Chimamanda Adichie because she's like super TERFsy uh, and she had this Ted talk about like the danger of a single story and that actually, what, what troubles our visibility is the community is the singularity of our story here in the US, how there's like one thing that people get to know about. And I think, and maybe it's better to think about Stuart Hall and how he talks about there's no such thing as good or bad representation, because good and bad is constantly changing, right? Even the word bad in some contexts means good. In that sense, that actually what you're looking for as a community is a multitude of representation so that nothing becomes the single story of your visibility. Of how you're seen and understood, right? That that's also like, what white supremacy gets that white people get to be poor and wealthy. They get to be teachers and doctors and criminals, right? And even when they're criminal, we make it Godfather and like, glorify that criminality and so I think that's the part of our community is of wanting that to of, like, how do we get to see ourselves everywhere so that there isn't a limitation around how we mobilize. I also think, and I think this is always the conversation around representation of, like, how do I feel represented? Like you know, I never felt, Tulsi Gabbard is a Samoan woman, and I never felt represented by her like, that's not my people. And so, even that representation piece of, and I've stated this before, of like, yo, if it's not pro Black and pro Indigenous and anti racist, it doesn't represent me. Like, those are not my people.   Like, I'm not throwing down with people who aren't trying to get free. And so if I'm thinking about representation to invisibility, like I want our folks to be exposed and see as many examples of freedom as possible. That the other thing about young people and like language and all this stuff is young people already, really anyone like has a sense of what is not fair or doesn't feel right. That our young people actually, and many of us as marginalized communities, are experts in oppression. Like, you don't need to teach us what up looks like, because we've experienced it our whole lives. And so what does it mean to develop and invest in and build a whole pipeline and lineage of folks who are experts in liberation, who have so deeply exercised that muscle that they don't know anything else, that they only know how to be free. Like, I think that's the part where I'm thinking about, like, that's the kind of visibility I want to see. That's the kind of that I hope that our young people, that I, like, not just our young people, that I also need. And that I also am seeking so much, especially during this pandemic and always as somebody who struggles with anxiety and depression is, you know, on that Miriam Kaba, like hope is a discipline. I am internalizing more and more what that means. You to have to exercise hope as a discipline, as a muscle that needs to grow. I mean, I'll share this with you all, like, thank you Stella for saying happy birthday. It is, just probably one of the most difficult birthdays I've ever had. It is hard to age during a pandemic. In particular, like, because it's so macabre right now. But also because I've been wading through a lot of survivor's guilt. For the last couple of months, I'm just kind of like wondering why other people didn't make it and I did and so I have like a systemic analysis of all the privileges that kept me alive, but I'm still sitting here feeling guilty about making it or about surviving COVID thus far. And then sitting on a birthday, then having, like, every wish just felt really warm, but also sharp. And having to, like, say thank you to every single one to, like, exercise a muscle of gratitude. Like, try to replace some of that guilt with gratitude. But all that to say that I think this is also the direction that EPIC is going in, that like, when I think about these critical issues that it's like translating this thought experiment into tangible action around stuff. I'm sorry, I turned it off, I just completely lost you all.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:51:53] No, I'm, I am with you, I was, y'all, like, I'm. dizzy from just shaking my head. Yes, I legit got lightheaded a second ago. Like, I was just shaking my head. What you just said, I was just like, isn't that the dream? Like, isn't that what we were supposed to be fighting for all those years ago and still today? A whole generation of people who don't know what it is to experience oppression. Like, that's the dream. Like, that's the dream. That, that is what we want and so what you were saying about visibility, you know, I'm, I constantly am struggling, like, with, I think, yeah, The Rock is there, but like, he's a wrestler, he's a movie star, you know what I mean? Like, it's always that same story. And while I appreciate him, I do, because being Black and being someone I always felt like a damn unicorn and The Rock was the only one who was there, who existed other than me and my brothers. And so I do appreciate him and the other celebrities or stars that we have to look to. But like you said, I want where we get to be. Any and everything and all of those things all at the same time.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:53:19] I'm not sure if this makes it to the episode, but I have to express my gratitude for you just coming through and blazing this whole conversation. And really, I feel like there's just so much that I can't wait to. process and think through. I feel like the impact in this conversation alone is just gonna reverberate not only in my experience, but also our listeners that are tuning in. So Tavae, thank you so much.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:53:47] Recovering perfectionist, that phrase. I'm walking away with it. Actually, it just posted something on like characteristics of white supremacy and the ways in which I was thinking about the ways in which as a theater educator, I have been guilty of perpetuating characteristics of white supremacy because it's so much a part of the way theater folk we do things. And so I was thinking like, but no wait, theater folk and artists, we also have the skills to dismantle white supremacy. It's also in the way that we do things so we do know better and when we know better we should do better so that recovering perfectionist is like in me and it also speaks to something that Gabriel has shared earlier about, you know, assimilation and being a first gen and that very typical immigrant story or child of immigrants like you're going to go to school get straight A's and essay like that show. And then your only options are doctor and lawyer. And don't come talk to me about anything else. So, you know, that that's definitely always been a part of. Me too, is it being in the diaspora and first gen American born, and always feeling like whatever I've done is not good enough. And, but then I'm like, but in whose eyes, whose eyes is it not good enough? And if it's in mine, then I need to sit with that and work past that. So recovering perfectionist, that's where I'm at.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:14] My favorite line from today was aspiring radical elder. I'm holding on to that one. I was feeling that.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:22] I wrote that one down too. Fa'a fatai te le lava. Thank you for listening.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:28] Salamat. Thank you for listening.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:29] We want to thank our special guest Tavae, one more time for rapping with us tonight. We really appreciate you.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:36] Continental Shifts Podcast can be found on Podbean, Apple, Spotify, Google, and Stitcher.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:55:43] Be sure to like and subscribe on YouTube for archived footage and grab some merch on our site.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:55:48] Join our mailing list for updates at CONSHIFTSPodcast.com That's C O N S H I F T S podcast dot com. Follow us at con underscore shifts on all social media platforms.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:06] Dope educators wayfinding the past, present, and future.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:56:10] Keep rocking with us, fam. We're gonna make continental shifts through dialogue, with love, and together.   Estella Owoimaha-Church: [00:56:16] Fa'afetai. Thanks again. Deuces.   Gabriel Tanglao: [00:56:19] Peace. One love.   Swati Rayasam: [00:56:20] Thanks so much for tuning into apex express and an extra special thank you to Gabe and Estella for allowing us to feature your incredible podcast. Like I said at the top, you can find other episodes of the ConShifts podcast on our site at kpfa dot org backslash programs, backslash apex express. Or even better, you can go to the ConShifts site to listen on Podbean or wherever podcasts can be found. And make sure to follow them to keep up with where they go next. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We think all of you listeners out there keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Miko Lee, along with Paige Chung, Jalena Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Kiki Rivera, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Cheryl Truong, and me, Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a great night. The post APEX Express – 8.1.24 – Continental Shifts Organizing & More appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 25, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 18, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Important Resources: APSC 4 Action Toolkit Asian Prisoner Support Committee Website | Instagram Purchase Arrival: Freedom Writings of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders Transcript: Cheryl: Good evening! You were currently tuned in to APEX Express. I'm your host Cheryl Truong, and tonight is an AACRE night. What is AACRE, you might be asking. Comprised of 11 grassroots, social justicegroups, the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality Network — AACRE — leverages the power of its network to focus on long-term movement building and support for Asian Americans committed to social justice. Speaking of AACRE groups, APEX Express is proud to be a part of the AACRE network.  Tonight. I have the incredible honor to introduce you all to some very special friends of mine, members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee APSC, which is also one of the 11 groups with the AACRE network. These individuals are among the most incredible people I've had the privilege to know. And tonight we'll be delving it to their stories and the important initiative that they're leading which is called #PardonAPSC4?  Their journey is not only one of immense resilience and courage, but also a Testament to the importance of community care and how community based approaches keep us safe way more than surveillance institutions or police ever will. So join us as they share their stories and also stick around to learn more about APSC's newest anthology, Arrival: freedom, writings of Asian and Pacific Islanders, where you can actually find some of their art and writings in physical form. So to start here with us, are Maria, Peejay, Bun, and Ke who put the four in APSC4. Peejay, do you mind kicking us all off with what the #PardonAPSC4 for campaign is all about?  Peejay: So APSC 4 are staff members at APSC and we all do different work at A PSC but our primary is helping our community. In general, fighting deportation, helping folks come home and reintegrate to society and supporting them with other needs that they may have, right? Mainly just to become successful citizen and. APSC4, despite our work, we all have backgrounds in incarceration, we're impacted, which means we're also at risk for deportation. And the campaign is born out of a desire to keep us home to fight our own deportation. And so we need the Governor Newsom to actually issue a pardon so that we can continue to do this work and stay with our family. Because otherwise, they would eventually, deport us. And as immigration is a very hard thing to deal with, and there's not a lot of options, especially with folks with convictions. And pardonness for us is like mainly the only thing that can help us stay home. And APS v4 mainly is to, it's a campaign to ask community members to support us, that mean elected official, that mean community members that you know, family members, anyone who's willing to support us, and basically uplift our campaign as well as reach out to elected and to Governor Newsom and encourage him to pardon us so that we can stay home and do this work. Cheryl: Thanks Peejay. You're literally hearing about the campaign directly from the people who are leading the way. So we know about APSC 4. We've heard a little bit about their campaign. But I also want you all to know about the people within APSC 4. And this is very in theme, especially with APSC's upcoming anthology Arrival, which captures stories of Asian American Pacific Islander individuals inside prisons, or who have been detained by ICE or have been recently released from ICE or prisons and as well as stories from impacted family members. So until you all get your hands on that, which is available for purchase now at Eastwind Books of Berkeley Berkeley. Which you can get at asiabookcenter.com. I would love to introduce you all to the beautiful, incredible, inspiring people of APSC 4. everyone's nodding their head. It's really cute. So let's start with,, maybe Ke, do you want to introduce yourself? Let our listeners know, who are you? Who are your people? Where do you come from?  Ke: Hi, my name is Ke Lam. My first, that's my full name is Nip Ke Lam which means in finishing my father's business in my language. So I'm Chinese Vietnamese. I also am a refugee baby who came here when I was four years old to America. So my people are all the impacted folks, all the juvenile lifers. And everyone that's trying to make a change in their life and looKeng for a second chance.  Cheryl: Thank you so much. I love that. Maria, do you want to introduce yourself next? Who are you? Who are your people?  Maria: Hi, my name is Maria Legarda and I'm the reentry consultant for APSC. My people are impacted folks, incarceration, immigration, detention, the survivors and, the resilient women who are still inside, those are my people. And my APC family and the community members who work towards change to improve our communities. People just didn't decide one day to commit crimes, right? There's always a reason behind because of events that led to that. People that make changes in the community to help it make it better for them to have that. Those are my people too. You know what else? I forgot what the question was.  Cheryl: Maria, you answered. Everything perfectly. The question was who are you and who are your people? And you answered it by giving a huge list of who your people are and I think that's very definitive of who you are as a person. But is there anything else you want to add to that, Maria?  Maria: I think that covered it all.  Cheryl: Beautiful. All right, Peejay, do you want to introduce yourself?  Peejay: So I am Peejay, real name is Borey Ai, but I go by Peejay, and Peejay has been in my life for many years longer than I can remember, but it has shifted and shaped in different forms, but I answer to both now, and I am a child refugee, I'm Cambodian, my family escaped the Khmer Rouge when it happens, and then I immigrate to Thailand to find refuge, and my mom and my dad met there, and so I was conceived and was born in Thailand, came to the United States when I was five, and yeah, and then got in trouble, trying to resettle into the, to the new environment, new culture, and I end up in prison. I share that to say that my people are folks who are impacted, people who I can relate to, and my experiences, so the refugee folks community And, my elders at CERI, obviously APSC and AACRE are all my community members and anyone who is in a fight, like where I'm learning, as I sit in a lot of different coalition spaces, doing my work, as an advocacy with APSC, and I've learned that a lot of community members are sharing the same work, sharing the same values, sharing the same goals, and the people that I'm in community with, so they are my people. And yeah, just like with Marie, like anyone who's striving to make changes to better our community members who are impacted is my community.  Cheryl: And last but not least Bun.  Bun: Hey, y'all! Thank you. My name is Chanton Bun, but I just go by Bun. I'm a, I was born during the genocide in Cambodia. I grew up in the refugee camps. Came to the U. S. when I was about six or seven years old. I'm formerly incarcerated. I'm a father of three boys. Grandfather Yeah, I'm the reentry coordinator here at Asian Prince Support Committee. And I also mentor at risk youth in our community. My folks are the incarcerated, the formerly incarcerated, the community the youth that is growing in our community now. And just supporting our community through a lot of these traumas that we still  Cheryl: It's so interesting hearing all of you introduce yourself because I work a lot with the APSC four members just through AACRE. But and I just learned that bun is a grandfather.    Bun: Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm not that old, but I am a grandfather.  Cheryl: All right now is that we've had the chance to hear from each of you about your backgrounds and the communities that you represent and the people that you carry with you. I would like to delve a bit deeper into your personal stories. Each of you have faced unique challenges and experiences that have shaped who you are today. Could you each share with our listeners a bit about some of the hardships that you have all encountered along your journey?  Bun: Oh, I can go.  Yeah. Growing up yeah, I grew up in the refugee camps. So I was faced with like starvation not knowing what safety was, there was, living in the refugee camps. There were so many I saw so many people hurt or walKeng in almost dead. I think I was numb to it coming to this country. I was faced with bullying a lot and being discriminated against. Being poor wasn't really. And I didn't realize we were poor because in the refugee camp, we were poor. So like coming here, we had, we had a roof on our head and food and, family all around the fear of, somebody coming into our house, just taKeng our stuff or, doing what they want because we were in refugee camps when I came to the United States. I didn't realize we were poor for a long time. But the bullying and the discrimination was really hard. I remember even the school discriminated against us because I guess they didn't know where we're from. One of my memory was me and my cousins and an uncle, we went to school and we all wore slippers. They called our parents to come pick us up and say, you guys cannot wear slippers. You need shoes. And like our parents didn't realize that we're like that's what we wear for shoes. So that's one of the first like memories. I knew that we didn't understand the U. S. And then, you know, Keds around the neighborhood. We're just picKeng on us because we didn't speak English or we didn't understand the rules we were, and then it was just like a bunch of us Keds. Cause when I came to LA, I lived in an apartment with about 25 of us living there because our cousins and stuff, all we came from Texas, our cousins were here. And we just wanted to be together because we've been separated for a while. And all we knew was me, my uncles, and my cousin, we walked everywhere together. Some of us caught on caught English earlier, so we understood more, some didn't. So we're just guiding each other. And then when we were bullied Our parents told us to just take it. And we knew that in, in the refugee camp we had no power. We took whatever they wanted. I remember getting robbed like three times a week and they're taKeng our pots and pans. So like keeping quiet was a thing. So we just kept quiet and we didn't trust authorities at all. Never complained to the principal or the teacher at all, but then we grew into That, that, that, that fear grew into anger and the need was protection. So the boys in, in, in my family is nah, we're not taKeng this no more. And we just started defending ourself, fighting and just or my thought, and I'm pretty sure like all my, my, my uncles and my cousin's thoughts were like, we got to protect. Each other because we can't walk home crying all the time or we can't walk home seeing our cousin walk home crying. So we just said the next time we're going to fight back and whatever the consequences and the cost. The consequences of coming home, like the teacher calling like, Hey, you're going to fight. That's what the consequences because our parents was like against fighting against violence. But, the consequences of getting detention in class wasn't, that wasn't nothing to us. We were scared of coming home, but that, that led into a lifestyle of violence, a lifestyle of feeling that I need protect myself from everything and don't matter what the situation was. And, it tumbled into joining gangs for protection and in the gang lifestyle. overtook that fear and we just, gravitated to it because it gave us strength. It gave us a sense of, sense of brotherhood, a sense of safety, a sense of I'm not going to get hurt no more. So that's how my life spiraled.  Cheryl: Yeah, the interesting thing about radio is that y'all can't see their faces when Bun was telling the story, literally everyone in this room right now, we're nodding their heads, and y'all can't see that because it doesn't translate into radio. Ke, I saw you nodding your head a lot. Do you want to share your story?  Ke: My story is very similar to probably Bun's and Peejay's being come here as a refugee baby. I don't remember my whole journey to America. I just remember my journey in America. I just, I remember growing, we moved around a lot in California. We came into San Francisco, moved around. I remember home for me was the barrier, but predominantly San Francisco. And we moved all over the city. We lived in Chinatown, 100th Point, Petro Hill, Sunset. I remember as a Ked parents separated when I was about six. No, in and out of relationship when I was seven. So they, they basically wasn't around for me or each other. They dealt with, dealing with trauma. My mom lost her parents on the way to America. Yeah. My mom's parents was actually murdered by pirates in the open South China sea. So she dealt with that and she did not deal with that to cope with that. So she, she did what she did best. And that's, is finding an end jobs and then dealing with a husband who was abusive. And so we live when we moved to patrol Hill. We got our place got robbed all the time. We ended up having to put bars on our doors and our windows. I remember my mom would say, don't go outside. Knows anytime of the day. So I basically was like in a prison in our little apartment. And I had to run this. I remember trying to go to school one time by myself and I got jumped multiple times. I remember they, they do rocks at me. They do run eggs at me. They push me push me down. They didn't let their dogs chase after me. So the funny joke about that, I said, I was grateful for them because they actually made me really good at track and field, so I was able to run real fast and jump fences, so that was, I like, I was grateful for that. But I took, the route to school was only five minute walk, but it took me 30 minutes every day to, one each way to come to go to school and come home, just so I could avoid my bullies. I remember one time they actually caught up to me when I was like eight years old, and I had to, I had really no choice but to fight. And after that day, after they jumped me, after I fought one of those guys, I remember I was standing over the Ked that I fought, and I saw the parent just yelling at me like how you let that chink, that Chinese Ked, that chink beat you up. And then I saw his friend walKeng up to me like they about to assault me, and I'm like, I'm about, I'm, I'm about to get messed up, but instead they congratulated me. They said good job, welcome to the neighborhood. And so I'm like, from that day on, I normalized violence. Violence is the way to solve your problems, and it's also the way to be accepted in the neighborhood. And that's, and that opened my eyes to, everywhere I looked, there was violence, all different forms of violence. My mom was gone all the time. She was never home. I became a parent. My mom had my second, third oldest my brother. And I end up becoming a parent at eight years old, raising my little brother for a whole year by myself because the neighbor was some old elderly Asian couple just didn't care about him. He had diaper rashes and I just took care of him. I built a lot of resentment towards my mom. I'm like, you abandoned us. You abandoned me. You abandoned my brother. What Kend of mother are you? I remember I went out, I stole diapers, stole formulas, stole food, also begged for money at the streets not in the neighborhood, but, different parts of the cities and yeah, it just, I, it felt, I felt like my mom didn't care. My dad was never around, he was out of the picture, so I didn't even think about him. My teenage years. I became really good at sports, played a lot of sports growing up. At the age of 15, we moved to Richmond, California, where I got introduced to the gang lifestyle. I didn't know nothing about gangs. It was the first time I actually grew up, I went to a school where there was a lot of Asians. In San Francisco, all the schools I went to were predominantly Blacks and Mexican and Pacific Islanders. And I didn't know, certain words meant certain things, and then I learned what a blood and a crib is. I didn't know what that was, because I remember growing up in San Francisco, we used the word, the term blood all the time as a form of, like family. And so when I went to Richard and they were like, what's up? I was like, what's up, blood? And they were like, just cuz. I'm like, cousin? I was confused. I didn't like, I didn't know what that meant. But then I didn't know that by me hanging out with them that their enemies also became my enemies. And and then I remember if I walked around by myself, their enemy would try to attack me thinKeng I was one of them, which I wasn't. And so I became a wannabe at the time and I like associate with them. I started KecKeng with them. But one thing that drew me really close to the gang, the Asian gang, was that our story was very similar to each other. They understood my story, understood this story. We all struggled. I remember growing up, I had to be a translator for my parents, my mom. She would take me out of school and I resented her for that. Why? I didn't want to learn English. And so that was, and that just came on as I got older. That resentment came and then I committed my crime when I was 17 years old because I was trying to show my homeboys like you got to show me love. I'm gonna be there. I want to be the best I could be. I wanted a name for myself. I wanted that respect. And I didn't think about the consequences at the time. My life was on, it was on the road down destruction. So I didn't care about myself and I didn't care about nobody else and I didn't care about my siblings either at the time. And so that's what ended up happening to me before, growing up as a Ked. Cheryl: What about you, Peejay? Peejay: Yeah, I think what Keechi said, like my life And Bun and his similar, like I came here when I was five and then like I got bullied right away, right? Like at the earlier stage. And at the time I didn't even, I didn't even understand it, even know what it is. And I think like this one story Kend really highlighted my introduction to bullying. I was in the park, a bunch of Keds laughed at me, right? They're laughing, right? And so I'm like, at the time I didn't know they were laughing at me. They were just laughing. And so I laughed. I thought they were laughing, because we're friends or something, right? They liked me. So I laughed too. I didn't know what that was laughing about, but one of the Keds got angry and came up and punched me in the face. I realized, he punched me in the face, he was screaming and yelling at me, I didn't know what he was saying but I understood right then and there he wasn't laughing with me, he was laughing at me. So what happened, I laughed too, so it got him angry, learned right away, What like bully was right and then I wasn't like well accepted, share the same story of like most Southeast Asian community, we get spit on we get beat up, in school and things like that. But I think the message I got, most deeply about I'm not wanted, is, we talked about that the Cleveland elementary school shooting, that was where I was with the first school shooting in the United States where Southeast Asian community was targeted by, And I lost my cousin during a school shooting. But that was like a big statement, some dude showed up in the, in the playground, climbing up the roof with an AK 47 and shooting at us, right? They were like telling me, that's a big statement you're not wanted, for me it was like, I grew up in a very bad environment as it is, where there's a lot of gangs, there's a lot of violence, a lot of shooting, a lot of, stuff happening in the neighborhood and then, getting constantly bullied all the time and, spit on and tell you that you're not wanted to go back to your country. And then when that happened, I just shut down, I didn't believe that my environment is safe anymore. And I, obviously when you're in a refugee camp, like when I go you don't feel safe, you know what safety is, right? So I grew up never feeling safe, right? And I was moving around. And so that led me to gangs, right? Like he, I joined a gang. I felt the love in the gang. The bully stopped, and they started giving me hugs, showing me love and as someone who craves acceptance, since the day you step into a new country, just wanting to belong somewhere that felt really good, and I was a Ked. I was like, man, I felt so good. Like I felt like I belong somewhere. Like people care about me. This is my family. And for me, like that, that bought me into this idea, like this is what most of my life is about. I'm going to give everything for these, for the homies. And, the Ke, I agreed to commit a crime, At 14 and end up in the prison system as one of the youngest juvenile lifer, and I was pretty much raised in the system. I think I spent more time in prison than I've been home, been out on the street. So everything I learned, in prison, right? And then I came home as an adult after 20 something years. And not like trying to just, as an adult in a new society with not a lot of experience. So fortunately, people like he, people like Bun, Maria, who does this work, that's why APC4 Reentry Program is so important, right? Because people like me didn't know how to use a cell phone, didn't know how to turn on a computer, didn't do a lot of stuff, right? I've learned a lot of stuff in prison. So I have a lot of advantage as I was investing in myself and doing my programming to earn my parole, but even still this stuff, I didn't know, and I imagine people it was worse than both of I was to have some knowledge and have a lot of access that I did, but I'll show you, I'll show you to say it's hard, it's hard in our work, help transition. I remember he took me shopping, show me how to use Bart, how to use public transportation. The trajectory of my life would have much been different. If I grew up in a different environment, like that's something I was clear about. And so now like we try to create those environment for our community because we'll know better. We learn from our past experience and now like giving back to our community. Is, for me, it's like, for me, like this work is my life, like it's my life because I've lived through it, like someone saved my life, I didn't want to make it home without people showing up, doing this work. So I feel like for me giving back and continuing this work is part of the commitment. Creating change and giving back, but I feel like I was meant to do this, like I, I came home with a purpose, I went to prison with absolutely no clue, just trying to survive. And I came home with a purpose. I feel like I have some Kend of meaning in my life. So that's Kend the short summary of my life. I like my connection to APS C is my work and my work is my life. Cheryl: (Peejay I think your genuine passion for what you do really shows, and I'm sure our listeners can feel it too.) Maria, please. We would love to hear your story. .  Maria: For me. Unlike Peejay, Ke, and Bun, I wasn't a refugee, during the war. I immigrated to the U. S. During the time when the economic the economy in the Philippines is not doing great. I was born during the time of the Marcus dictatorship. That was during Ferdinand Marcus regime in the Philippines where we were under his dictatorship for 30 years. During that time, growing up. I had siblings and my younger sister became ill, with my parents being gone all the time taKeng care of my sister. It was a difficult childhood, from what we were used to, and just the changes. In our lives. And at that time, my parents did the best that they could to support us, all three of us, but because they don't know actually what was going on with my sister, right? It was difficult for a parent to see their child. Child suffering, and she was young. She was only four. So at that time, I was left to take care of my brother. And it was the two of us, fending for ourselves. It took a toll on my parents, and the time spent with me and my brother and my sister were very limited. And I felt abandoned. This was our life before, my sister got sick. We were happy. We're going on vacations summer. By the beach, even if it's just, right there, you go to the beach with your chocolates and you just hop on the, the side of it's the islands, right? So we had fun. We just stopped doing all those things. And the only thing we knew was my sister was sick. That was it. My parents didn't know how to explain something that they don't know either what was going on. So I guess that my expectation is such a young age is, my parents were in my world. So expecting them to tell us like what was going on and the feeling of that abandonment and that unworthiness being unloved and cared for really was there, it's just there, but I never manifested it because I didn't know how to, but I knew what I was feeling inside. And so when parents fought my sister's condition got worse and eventually at the age of 10, she passed away, so my parents would, my parents, other than the heartache, the heartbreak of losing a child was left with huge financial debt. In, in our culture, the eldest takes care of the family, right? So at that time I was going to school my parents provided for us that we can still go to school. It was hard. We managed it. We went through a lot, but in the end my parents did the best that they can for me and my brother. So I, I had the opportunity, to come to the U S. And I came here by myself without any contingency, any plan, but the idea that maybe when I get there, then I'll figure it out because I see a lot of people leaving the Philippines, coming over here, finding work. So I'll also do that. And that was the trend during that time. In the 90s, a lot of people were immigrating to the U. S. to find like a better life, right? And so when I came during that time I mentioned that longing, the attention, that abandonment. And so I was here alone and I met someone. I met someone and everything that I needed, that person listened to me. He cared. He loves me. He actually, somebody does actually care how I feel. And so I never thought that he would be the person to hurt me. And so we were talKeng like really getting to know each other. And then six months, we decided to meet. And on the day we met, I became a victim of sexual assault. And Again, the, it was worse, there were, I don't even have words for how, I felt after the betrayal because my whole world just shattered, and being alone here, it wasn't, it's not like the Me Too movement that we have now. Back then, we don't speak of it. And one thing I did at that time that I tell the women now, the young women, it is not your fault because I met him. Do I really know him? No. Growing up in a culture where you just don't go out with somebody you don't know, right? That was the time then people were meeting chat rooms, online dating. So I carried that guilt with me that it was my fault. For a long time, it took me a long time to really process that it wasn't my fault. It was done to me. I didn't ask for it. But I carried that. So drugs were the only thing that I was able to cope with because it made me numb. It made me forget. It gave me that false sense of power that I can take control back of my life. Not knowing that once I use drugs, I, it, I become numb to it all. And that eventually led me to incarceration. And so now after years of self introspection and just understanding what has, what the challenges and, the difficulties and all the heartbreaks that I had went through in life, going to self help groups and hearing the other survivors overcome it And stepping out of that that it was my fault, having to hear that the first time is what broke me free from that. Now, in my line of work, I can easily recognize it, because I was there. I know how it felt. And I always I've been, blessed to be able to grant that space, that safety space for our folks, men and women, when they share their struggles, because I've been there. I know what it's like. So I do, I'm passionate about my work because I've seen how I've turned things around. I saw myself, how I picked myself back up. I saw myself when I was really down that at the end of the day when people around you care enough to get to know you more than your past, you're going to get through it, and my, work in APSC And Ke would be the I came out of detention and Ke was one of the first one of the first people that I met other than Nia, Nia was a volunteer at that time with APSC and being undocumented it was hard for me to get anything. So Ke was there from the beginning. This is what you need to do. Don't worry. I'm going to walk you through it. And without Ke. guiding me through those steps it would have been much harder. It was already hard, but this was going to be extremely harder if he didn't give me the guidance. He didn't know what was going to happen, but he knew something to guide me. So that's why that's how I Eventually got to work with APSE because the first time they had their internship program, I think five minutes into posting it, I already submitted my application because I knew that the journey that I was taKeng on at that time as an undocumented immigrant, I know that there's going to be ways that I'm gonna, I have to find another way. Because I'm not the only one, and I know a lot of women coming home, men and women that are coming home are going to need their IDs, are going to need their social security, are going to need all their documentation, and who's best to explore them, right? Than me. Why? Because right now, this is where God has me, right? He has me on this path to help people. So let's get it done. And so that's why I stay with my APSC because I believe in what they do for a community because they started with me.  Cheryl: Maria!. That is such a beautiful point. And I think that last sentence that you shared is really why I admire the work of APC. So, so incredibly much, like not only is it work. For. Impacted folk. But it's also led for and by impacted folk who really understand the experiences of what it's like. And when your work is led by those who have truly experienced the impact firsthand. You approach people with a level of empathy that makes a real difference. And I'm listening to the things that you've all shared. You know, it's clear that what often matters most are the things that people like me who have never been behind bars often take for granted, you know, it's things like. You know your stories of needing Ke to. Teach you how to navigate BART? How do you secure your ID? What's a. Social security number. And the emotional support that comes with helping someone reintegrate into society. I truly don't know where a community would be without the incredible work that you all do with APC for.   Now I'm eager to learn more about the impactful work that you're doing within our community. What has been some of the most rewarding aspects of your work in. Reentry support and mentorship. Time is a factor. So maybe we could hear from maybe two of you. Bun: I think the most rewarding about re entry for me is, Watching the person I'm helping know that they have support, in my life there was nothing out there to support us other than gangs. But just. Watching them know that they have support, empowering them and their family to understand the system understand a person when they're coming home with family relations, and also relationships with their Keds because a lot of us have been incarcerated for so long. Just that, like he always say the first 90 days are important to show them the support that they really need because like myself, I was lost. I was like a loss, the last person coming home. I didn't even know how to cross the street. It took somebody to come take me to cross the street and walk me down the street because I wouldn't do what I was like, I can't do it. It's terrifying. But yeah just. A lot of folks often think like reentry is like a, no, we have to go get you a job, get you this. And those are important too. But the important thing is the little things like, teaching, teaching somebody how to answer their phone, teach them how to, setting up their calendar, teaching them across the street, walKeng, maKeng decisions when we're ordering stuff, taKeng them shopping, letting them shop for themselves. So these are the little things that. A lot of us and especially myself, I could speak for having anxiety, it was a really big anxiety of learning how to navigate society when I came home. I think a lot of our folks in reentry and. And it's crazy. Often, like when we take them on everybody in RedsKens is thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm like, what are you thanKeng me for? This is what you deserve, and then you'll hear it. They'll thank us all day. And we want to relate to them. This is what you deserve. This is what all of us deserve when we're coming home. This is what all of us deserve when we're growing up in our communities is this support from people that looks like you. People come from the same background, people that understand you. That's what really give me a lot of joy when I do my work is to seeing folks know that they do have support from folks that have been through it and folks that look like them, folks that's been through things like them. So that's my biggest joy when I do this work,  Ke: I like to jump in real quick I remember when I came home before all the rest of my colleagues here. I had no one like no one knew how to navigate the system. No, I like I came home with a loss of status. So I didn't know that I wasn't American that, I got released from immigration. And it just Kecked me out. And then it's I want to go get an ID. And it's we need two form of IDs. And I'm like, what do you need? They need, they said, we need a birth certificate or a passport. And I said, I have neither, no, neither one. And they said, what about a green card? I said my green card is no good no more. According to what they told me. So I'm like, I have no former I. D. I couldn't get I. D. And it took me a while to get I. D. And just learning how to navigate barred and everything. It was I have a lot of gray hairs behind it. I have my head on, so you can't see, but it was really difficult to navigate. And then it's I had no one that looked like me that went through that process, right? And there was no program for A. P. I. folks that's coming out to have that support. And I'm so grateful for Asian Prison Support Committee for giving me that, for opening that door for me to learn this process, but also to receive the help. And I think for me, the highlight like Bun named a lot of the great stuff. I think for me, the it's my way of maKeng amends for the harm that I caused. That's why I do this work. I can, I could have left this job for a really good trade job, get great money, maKeng six figures a year, but I'm like, I need to get back, because that, this is my way of healing myself, not just the other person, it's just, it's Kend selfish to say that. But I if I can't heal myself, how can I help heal the next person? And that's why I do this work. And I remember one of the guys I picked up from immigration, he's he had a choice of his family and us, formerly incarcerated folks, to pick him up. And he's I'm grateful for you guys to pick me up. And I'm like, why? He said, because you guys understand me. You guys understand if my family came, it would have been a such a disconnect with them because they wouldn't understand it was like you have to do this, you have to do that. And then this is what you should do is but for us like we know what to do, and then we understand like choices, being incarcerated for decades and coming out like choices is really difficult for us, people tell what do you want, and we like, I don't know. We was limited to what we had inside. And so that's why I keep doing this work. Like with the rest of them, it's like giving back, but also at the same time healing. We're on this healing journey together.  Cheryl: I know I only said two people, but I really watched the way Maria's eyes fricKen sparkled when I asked this question. Maria, I want to know what has been the most rewarding part of worKeng at APSC?  Maria: Am I that I'm easily read? No, because the one thing and he and by with no we had a client, she had a drug past these two, she was, she had a, oh my god, I said that backwards past drug use. And she worked on actually worKeng on getting her substance abuse, counseling. So we help her get through it online classes register for her use gift cards to get that online classes paid like every avenue that we could think of we helped her get that in the same time. She was trying to get custody of all her children. And so walKeng her through her online classes and being there by her side, like just cheering her on, you can do this. And so with her heart and mind into it, she was able to do it. She graduated. She finished it. And at the same time it was just getting hit with left and right with different problems, around getting custody of her child children. But because she has the support of a PSE. She said, I would have never been able to get through all this if not for your weekly calls that you check up on us. It doesn't matter whether it's me, whether it's Ke, Bun, because it's a, it's an effort, a team effort, right? Me and Bun would go there when she needed us, as a support. And so when she finally finished her school she was able to go to an internship. And now she works for another nonprofit organization, and she actually refers clients to us now because she became a substance use counselor. And then on top of that, gained custody of her three Keds. How much more work an AP has to do, right? With family reunification, that's what it's all about. It doesn't matter what your past was, it matters like how you're going to move forward. Yeah, your past, they're always going to bring it up, right? Because you have a record. But what they're not going to be able to take away from you is what you go from this point on, from that abusive relationship, and you were able to take it out, and you're able to do something with your life and get your Keds back, and now you have a home for them. That's what the work is about. It's not just about helping people, when they first come home, but it's that care that you nurture them in their journey. That's why our job is not eight to five, unfortunately, and it doesn't, our job doesn't stop after six months. They become family to us and that's really what APSC is about, and that's one of the joys seeing her graduate, become a counselor and have her Keds back. So that's our APSC, one of our stories, our re entry stories that really we talk about it all the time.  Cheryl: I could speak the praises of the incredible work that APSC 4. Does forever. But until then we have to take a quick music break. To our listeners. If you take anything away after hearing these stories, it's that we need to collectively demand that governor Newsome, pardons APSC 4 for. Formerly incarcerated leaders like the APSC four are at the heart of our movement. They're compassion and resiliance inspire us all to create change in our communities. And yet despite their work and transformation. Maria Key bun and PJ remain in this immigration limbo and are at risk of being detained by ice and deported. Uh, deporting APS. Core staff would devastate our community.  So please join me in urging governor Newsome to take action now to pardon APC for. To protect them from deportation by going to this link. bit.ly/APSC4 for all in capital letters. It'll also be linked in our show notes.  Once again, the link is bit.ly/APSC4 this is an all capital letters. This is a direct link to the APC for action toolkit, which will give you different action items you can do to join us in. The fight to part in APC for. There's a call script for governor Gavin Newsome. Demanding the protection of APC for there are sample tweets you can send out. There is a petition. You can sign there also graphics you can share on social media. So please, please check out this link. You could even do this during our music break. Once again, the link is bit.ly/APSC4 N all capital letters. When we come back, we're going to be tackling broader issues and systemic change.  So don't go anywhere.   Cheryl: And we're back. You were listening to apex express on 94.1, FM KPFA and online@kpfa.org. You were just listening to change the world by baby Chris. We have currently with members of APS C. Maria Key PJ and bun. And the first half of the show, we delved into their personal stories, struggles and advocacy efforts. But in order to give you all a comprehensive understanding of their stories. We need to talk about the broader systemic dynamics that are at play. So let's dive back in.   Bun: For me immigration need to look at what we've been through and also what California said, we got a second chance. We earned our second chance. We have proven that we are change, and we, APSE4, have proven that coming back to the community, we are an asset to our community. I think they need to really look into that. Folks that have been have proved themselves through the board, through finishing their term, that we all deserve a second chance. If a citizen deserves a second chance, why not us? And what is the difference, other than we were born somewhere else? Our lives, our family, our communities here. So yeah, they need to really look into what a second chance  Ke: mean. I don't think there's anyone in the world that has not made a bad choice in their life or a mistake. Like to be defined by the worst day of your life for the rest of your life. Like, how is that just, especially in a country that is You know, the pillar of human rights, we say who built America, immigrants built America. How do we make America great again? We save our immigrant and refugee community. That's how we make America great again. It's not by, I look at it when you put people through the immigration system, it's like slavery all over again. Prisons, no different. It's like slavery all over again. If we talk about humanity, we talk about a just system. We talk about second chances. We talk about people. These are people that are incarcerated, not numbers, not products. not just a person that made a terrible choice, these are people, mother, father, grandfather, aunties until we start seeing people as people, we will continue to dehumanize them. And yeah, yes, we made some bad choices in our life. But at the same time, like Bunce said, we are redeemable. Just give us that second chance to show you. And that's what APSC's Board has been doing. We've been showing everyone that we, yeah, we own it. We, yeah, we take accountability for what we've done. At the same time we're showing you that we're not that same person anymore. And put it out there for everyone is yes, look at, don't always look at the harm that people cause, but look at the reason why they made that choice. And if you understand where they came from, it'll tell you why they did what they did, but also you give them that chance, they can show you that they can make a difference. Yeah, I know like  Peejay: the way I see life now, and this is Kend of like mind boggling to me because a lot of people like are conservative or very smart. We're educated. And then, to me, it's if you truly value peace, right? You truly value people's lives. Community, right? You have to treat everyone equally, the same, right? We start treating people differently, you create division, that's how you divide us. California isn't supposed to be a state that is full of division, it's supposed to be, the value is that we're all together, right? We're from all walks of life, and a melting pot, right? Of cultural and diversity, and that's what makes it so amazing and beautiful, and you can find anything here in California from any part of the world. Like we made California an amazing place, right? So then, like, when you see about the anti Asian hate, like, all the movement about solidarity, then you turn around and say, okay we're going to treat these people differently and just deport them because they committed a crime, but then we're going to say, like, all these other people, they redeemed themselves, too, but we're going to give them another chance, to me, that would make no sense, right? You're creating division, we're people, we should treat everybody the same. And we all have, it's not like we didn't earn it, we're not talKeng about giving people a chance to give a chance we're giving people a chance to earn a chance. And then we have proven ourselves. And I think that's a testament, like I'm going to keep living my life the way I live my life. I'm going to keep pushing and helping people because that's what I'm meant to do. And I don't think that's going to change me no matter what people think of me, but I think if people really put money where their mouth is, then they should really more solidarity, like watching people differently when we're trying to bring people together. I don't know. That's, maybe that's too simple, but to me, it's no brainer, if you want to pull us all dirty, then do it. Stop talKeng about it,  Cheryl: maria, did you have anything you wanted to add?  Maria: I second everything that Bun, Ke, and Peejay mentioned, second chance is, to me, it's, we weren't born here, right? But, our community is we're helping our community become safe. We're helping our community thrive, and I'll look at that. Cheryl: I  Maria: got distracted, but they would someone that never had a conviction, what are you doing to help your community thrive? So the only difference between me, but he and Peejay is that we had a conviction. But we're here to serve our community, and yet at any given day, he can just pick us up and deport us. And then what happens, who's going to continue to work, because like I said, our jobs not eight to five, and it doesn't last a six month program. It's a lifetime. No. So who's willing to pick up that responsibility, because we are. So I hope that, in the near future, like the policies and the immigration see past the conviction. And see us that we matter, took us a long time to regain that work to believe in our own worth, because we're now we know what our value is, and we fight for our freedom to stay here to not get sent back to a country we've never been in, because now we know what our value is. We know our community values us, our family holds us dear. And without our work in the community, who's going to save the children, the youth, who's going to help the elders, who's going to bridge that gap, because there are more and more people that's going to be in and out of the system. And who's going to help them. And that's, that's my hope that, one day they see us as equals, and not just. immigrants who are not born here.  Cheryl: I hope that by this, after hearing all of these incredible stories of APSC4, you all know how important and integral that Boone, Peejay, Maria, Ke are to our community. I know just from my own experience that They are core members of my own community, and I don't know where our community would be without them. Learn more about PartinAPSC4 in the show notes. I want to thank all of you so much for coming on our show tonight. Thank you all so much for being here, for sharing your stories, and for continuing this really incredible work that y'all are doing. Yeah, we'll see you on the next show. Thanks, everyone! Thank you, have a good night!  Ke: Alright, bye!  And that's the end of our show. Learn more about the incredible work being done by Apsu for, by checking out the show notes. Don't forget that the APC for action toolkit is also available at the link bit dot Lee slash APC. that's the number for all capital letters. And it's also available in our show notes as well.  And also don't forget to check out the new anthology published by Asian prisoner support committee. APC called arrival freedom, writings of Asian and Pacific Islanders. This anthology was several years in the making.  And offer us an intimate insight into the lived experiences of AAPI communities, entangled within the criminal legal system and immigration. From tales of resilience, amiss adversity to profound reflections on identity and belonging, arrival explores themes of war, memory, prison, transformation, healing, and the pursuit of home.  This is available for purchase at Eastwind books of Berkeley. www.asia book, center.com.  Cheryl Truong: Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong   Tonight's show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening! The post APEX Express – July 11, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 4, 2024 appeared first on KPFA.