Podcasts about When Helping Hurts

It's a minus episode (just John and Josh)-John and Josh discuss vocabulary, geography, and when helping someone actually does them no good.

THIS EPISODE BROUGHT TO YOU BY: You'll notice that there's no sponsor in this episode.  We'd love it if you'd consider supporting on Patreon.   PATREON - patreon.com/nodumbquestions  STUFF IN THIS EPISODE: An Early Edison Wax Cylinder Home Recording Over There Irish Eyes Swiper No Swiping - Dora the Explorer B.F. Skinner Pavlov's Dog Freedom app Definition of Virile HGModernism - You're Not Addicted to tiktoks… Algorithms are breaking how we think When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Percy Jackson (Lotus Casino Scene) The dark side of AI voice cloning - Jeff Geerling CONNECT WITH NO DUMB QUESTIONS: Support No Dumb Questions on Patreon if that sounds good to you Discuss this episode here NDQ Subreddit Our podcast YouTube channel Our website is nodumbquestions.fm No Dumb Questions Twitter Matt's Twitter Destin's Twitter SUBSCRIBE LINKS: Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe on Android OUR YOUTUBE CHANNELS ARE ALSO FUN: Matt's YouTube Channel (The Ten Minute Bible Hour) Destin's YouTube Channel (Smarter Every Day)

What is evangelism AND 'whose' job is it? What is mission work? Is there a difference? I think so. I think there is a big difference. Two books I will reference in this episode are: The Hole in the Gospel and When Helping Hurts. I HIGHLY recommend reading them if you go on mission trips, are interested in going on a mission trip and want to know more about how I have come up with some of my beliefs. You can find out more about Jamelle at www.jamellegodlewski.comInstagram - Jamelle GodlewskiFacebook - Jamelle Godlewski - Leader and Kingdom InfluencerYouTube - Jamelle Godlewski

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].

What if you were called to action by a viral video and found yourself on a mission halfway across the world? Meet Mike Warneke, the passionate founder of Fields of Dreams Uganda, whose journey began with a deep-rooted faith and a life-altering visit to Uganda. Inspired by the resilience of the Ugandan people and a calling from his faith, Mike's mission evolved into a lifelong commitment to bringing hope and change to marginalized communities. Join us as we explore the story of how one individual's dedication and spirituality inspired a movement, offering both immediate and eternal hope to those in need.Our conversation with Mike dives into the complexities of development work in Uganda, a country with a young and vibrant population. We discuss the importance of empowering local leaders and developing community-driven solutions that are sustainable and impactful. Mike shares personal stories, including efforts to improve hygiene for young girls, which highlight the thoughtful and nuanced approach required in effective aid work. Grounded in wisdom from influential books like "When Helping Hurts" and "Toxic Charity," our dialogue challenges the notion of outsourcing compassion and stresses the importance of direct engagement and listening.In this episode, we also tackle the intricate relationship between wealth, faith, and discipleship. Mike opens up about the challenges of ministering in affluent contexts, discussing how excess can sometimes obscure spiritual growth. Together, we reflect on how living simply can lead to a more authentic connection with God and consider the structural challenges within church institutions that can affect leadership and faith journeys. As we explore the joy and purpose found in committing to a meaningful life driven by hope, Mike's experiences in Uganda offer powerful insights into using one's gifts for the collective good and living a life aligned with purpose and passion.Do you have a dream to reach people with the gospel, but feel stuck? There is hope for you.Join us on an incredible learning journey to discover, develop, and deploy your calling to bless the world around you with the love of Jesus!All NEW ULC Missions ClassFor a 10% off discount - use code LEADTIME10 For a 25% off discount - join our LeadSupport the showJoin the Lead Time Newsletter! (Weekly Updates and Upcoming Episodes)https://www.uniteleadership.org/lead-time-podcast#newsletterVisit uniteleadership.org

Today we sit down with Peter Greer, President and CEO of HOPE International, to unpack the revolutionary insights from his new book, "Lead with Prayer."

During the month of August we will be re-airing some of the best previous episodes of More to the Story. Today we have Dr. Bran Fikkert's episode (No. 72). Brian is the co-author of “When Helping Hurts” and Founder/President of the Chalmers Center. We hope you enjoy this interview. Youtube - https://youtu.be/QPm4E2J1G30Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcastApple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4Link to "Becoming Whole" -https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Whole-Opposite-Poverty-American-ebook/dp/B07G2WLLJYIf you are interested in learning more about my two video-accompanied courses, Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude andHeaven and Other Destinations: A Biblical Journey Beyond this World , visit courses.andymilleriii.comAnd don't forget about my book that came out last summer, Contender, which is available on Amazon! Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching. Today's episode is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary. Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.eduThanks too to Phil Laeger for my podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Poverty and Wealth in the Gospels Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 10/25/2015 Length: 41 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Poverty and Wealth in the Gospels, Part II Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 11/1/2015 Length: 45 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Poverty - What's the Problem? Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Paul DeHart Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 11/22/2015 Length: 46 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Poverty and Wealth in the Gospels, Part II Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 11/1/2015 Length: 45 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Poverty and Wealth in the Gospels Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 10/25/2015 Length: 41 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: The Broken Relationships of Poverty Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 11/15/2015 Length: 46 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Arbor Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: What is Poverty? Subtitle: When Helping Hurts Speaker: Brian Pinney Broadcaster: Arbor Church Event: Sunday School Date: 11/8/2015 Length: 9 min.

Have you ever thought about what it's like to perform complex oral surgeries in some of the most remote parts of Africa? Today, we sit down with Dr. Timothy Bartholomew, a leading oral and maxillofacial surgeon at North Coast Oral Surgery, to discuss his transformative work in Africa. With a deep commitment to patient care and a reputation for excellence, Dr. Bartholomew specializes in advanced surgical techniques that transform smiles and improve lives. In our conversation, we delve into Tim's time working in Africa and the challenges and triumphs of working in resource-limited settings. We discuss how his practice setup allows him to continue his work abroad, the different fellowships he participated in, and how working in Africa added to his expertise. Hear about how he got started, how he funded his initial humanitarian work, why he needed to learn French, and his experience working in a mission hospital. Explore what he learned about making his resources last longer, improvising with what you have safely, why follow-ups are his biggest challenge, and the personable aspect of working in Africa. Gain insights into the upcoming trips he has planned, how he balances his work abroad with family life, what he learned about poverty, and vital considerations for anyone thinking of committing to humanitarian work. Join us and discover the ins and outs of working beyond borders with Dr. Tim Bartholomew. Tune in now!Key Points From This Episode:Tim's training background, his current practice setup, and what he focuses on.What experience and qualities are needed to pursue humanitarian work.Hear about the hurdles he had to overcome and the lessons he learned.The type of compromises it takes to work in a mission hospital in Africa.How his wife's passion for being a mission doctor plays into his work.Find out what he finds so rewarding about working in Africa.Differences in working as a dentist in Africa compared to America.Discover how oral surgeons can help support those working abroad.Future trips he has planned and why he continues his work abroad.Advice and resources for oral surgeons considering humanitarian work.Favorite books, how he unwinds, his ultimate forceps, and more!Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:Dr. Tim Bartholomew — https://www.northcoastoralsurgery.com/timothy-bartholomew-dds-facsDr. Tim Bartholomew Email — lefortone@hotmail.comNorth Coast Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery — https://www.northcoastoralsurgery.com/Smile Train — https://www.smiletrain.org/When Helping Hurts — https://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802409989/A History of the English-Speaking Peoples — https://www.amazon.com/History-English-Speaking-Peoples-Bloomsbury-Revelations/dp/1474216315McHale's Navy — https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055689/MedSend — https://medsend.orgEveryday Oral Surgery Website — https://www.everydayoralsurgery.com/ Dr. Grant Stucki Email — grantstucki@gmail.comDr. Grant Stucki Phone — 720-441-6059

When someone asks for help, many of us jump into “fix-it mode” to solve the problem. While this may seem like a necessary response, it can also harm both the help-giver and receiver. Join Micah and Christa as we discuss how to identify and fight fix-it mode! You also won't want to miss an extended interview with one of our Life Center friends.=============================SHOW NOTES=============================

Today, we're releasing our podcast collaboration with our friends at Theology in the Raw. Brandon had a chance to sit down with Preston Sprinkle and dive into all things global orphan care and discuss the realities of that children in orphanages face worldwide. Our conversation weaves between a theology of calling and mission and how American Christians intersect with orphans in the Global South. We discuss the reality of life within orphanages, why kids end up there and what risk factors and vulnerabilities arise when kids are raised in that environment. This is a good Ethical Orphan Care 101 type episode and we're grateful for the chance to collaborate with Theology in the Raw to raise awareness and education. For additional follow-up check out Brandon's four part orphan care blog series on Theology in the Raw. Here's the link. Resources and Links from the show When Helping Hurts by Brian Fikkert and Steve Corbett In Pursuit of Orphan Excellence by Phil Darke and Keith McFarland Check out our friends at Cherish Uganda Get help to transform your orphanage with Canopy International

Friends, we have out-kicked our coverage once again! Dr. Brian Fikkert of When Helping Hurts fame joins us today on the Broken Banquet Podcast, and we are digging into his newest book, Becoming Whole: Why the Opposite of Poverty Isn't the American Dream.Dr. Brian Fikkert, founder and president of The Chalmers Center, is also Professor of Economics and Community Development and the Founder and President of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College. He is coauthor of the best-selling book When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor…and Yourself, as well as Helping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions, Helping Without Hurting in Church Benevolence, and From Dependence to Dignity: How to Alleviate Poverty Through Church-Centered Microfinance.Dr. Fikkert earned a Ph.D. in economics from Yale University, specializing in international economics and economic development. He is the author of numerous articles in both academic and popular journals. Prior to coming to Covenant College, he was a professor at the University of Maryland — College Park and a research fellow at the Center for Institutional Reform and the Informal Sector.Music by: Irene & the SleepersLogo by: Jill EllisWebsite: menomissions.orgBB Website: https://www.brokenbanquetpodcast.comContact Us: brokenbanquetpodcast@gmail.com

We are back with the second half of our discussion with missionaries John & Raluca Tirla. In this episode we talk about what sustained zeal without burnout looks like, the truth about the effectiveness versus costs of short-term mission trips, and pursuing a purpose-driven life. We also get to hear some more testimonies of Afghan refugees coming to Christ.Books mentioned in this episode:When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett & Brian FikkertBoundaries by Henry Cloud & John TownsendDon't miss a single episode by subscribing to the podcast!Please leave us a rating or review if you liked this episode. Buy a mug!https://www.lovegodtee.com/shop/p/time-for-the-soul-mugFollow us on: https://www.timeforthesoul.co/https://www.youtube.com/@timeforthesoulpodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/timeforthesoulpodcast/Email us: contact@timeforthesoul.co

In this episode of the Wisdom Calling podcast, host Bobo Beck interviews Allan Sherer, Director of Global Connections at North Hills Church in Taylors, SC, about the wisdom of cultivating God's heart for the marginalized and vulnerable.Sherer discusses the importance of seeing the poor and vulnerable through the lens of God's love and compassion, and he shares practical ways that we can live out our faith in this area. He also talks about the importance of connecting our hearts to our theology, and how our understanding of God should shape the way we treat others.This episode is a great resource for anyone who wants to learn more about how to live a life of generosity and compassion, and how to be a better advocate for the marginalized and vulnerable in our communities.Key takeaways from the episode:Poverty is often rooted in brokenness of relationships (with God, self, others).There is a direct connection between our personal piety/holiness and how we think about and treat people, especially the poor.Generosity is not just about money, but also about time, skills, and leveraging human and social capital.God wants our hearts more than anything else.There is a relationship between obedience and blessing, and between disobedience and cursing/lack of blessing.We can cultivate a heart for the marginalized and vulnerable by getting to know God as the one who hears the cries of the poor and is compassionate.We should not think about or engage with the poor and marginalized in a way that is patronizing or dehumanizing. Instead, we should see them as people who are loved by God and who deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.Resources mentioned in the episode:North Hills Church https://northhillschurch.com/New Way Global https://www.newway.global/The Judson School https://thejudsonschool.com/Yass Prize https://yassprize.org/awardees/new-way-global/Acton Institute - Effective Stewardship (curriculum) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2YhagjmWvB9W74vf16yuVx6IH1RM7SsOChalmers Center https://chalmers.org/When Helping Hurts (book) https://chalmers.org/resources/books/Walking With the Poor (book) https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Poor-Principles-Transformational-Development/dp/1570759391Tyler Staton https://www.tylerstaton.com/Bryan Stevenson; Just Mercy (book/film) https://justmercy.eji.org/Bob Goff; Dream Big (book) https://www.bobgoff.com/shopSupport the showYou can order the devotionals at https://wisdomcalling.org

In this episode, Brian Fikkert and Gabriel Walder join the show to tackle critical topics such as helping the church rediscover its identity, divisions within the American church regarding poverty, and the intricate relationship between economic empowerment and family well-being. Additionally, they delve into cross-cultural missions, the significance of community and relationships, and discuss ACE's collaboration with Chalmers Center. Tune in for insightful perspectives on poverty alleviation and community building. Podcast Sponsor Replanted Conference The Replanted Conference provides a time away for caregivers to be refreshed, equipped, and inspired! Join us October 12-14, 2023 in Chicago or at a simulcast location near you. Registration now open! Use code '1MH10' to get your Think Orphan discount! Resources and Links from the show When Helping Hurts Vulnerable Children How Soccer Explains Leadership with Graham Daniels Becoming Whole by Brian Fikkert and Kelly Kapic Life We're Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World by Andy Crouch Chalmers Center Alliance for Children Everywhere Conversation Notes What does human flourishing look like? (7:30) Helping the church to rediscover who we are (9:00) Supporting organizations to transition to family care (16:00) The division of the American church on why people are poor (22:00) The problems with economic empowerment (24:00) The Graduation Approach of economic empowerment (34:00) Family as the solution and greatest community asset (37:00) Approaching families with humility (41:00) Working cross-culturally in missions (43:00) The imperative of community and relationship (48:00) ACE's collaboration with Chalmers Center (1:04)

Brian joins the podcast, along with my wife Sam, to discuss Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert's book When Helping Hurts. We talk about how to determine the kind of help a person really needs, community development in other social contexts, and how to find a trustworthy partner in a third-world country.

Most of us have heard examples of when good intentions and generosity for the poor inadvertently led to more harm than good. But what's the solution to this problem? How can you and I help those in need without causing them harm? This week's guest, Dr. Brian Fikkert, co-author of the well-known book, When Helping Hurts and Founder/President of the Chalmers Center, joins us to respond to this vital question by introducing us to his newest book, Becoming Whole: Why the Opposite of Poverty isn't the American Dream.Episode Landing PageDisciple Nations Alliance Website

Today's conversation with Jody Ray. Jody is the Pastor of Missions at Chet's Creek Church in Jacksonville, Florida. Helping children in extreme poverty is a central focus of Chet's Creek. Jody share's how this came about and why it's so important.Want to learn how your church can partner with OneChild to bring HOPE to kids living in hard Places? Click Here!First, small things can make a big impact, like making sure a child has the proper uniform for kindergarten so they start strong in school. That changes their life forever. Second, tenacity is more important than having the right answers. Things will always need to be shifted and changed, but we'll only do those things when we are fully committed to never giving up.And finally, be smart enough to recognize that you don't have all the right answers and you need to educate yourself. Jody mentions “When Helping Hurts” and the Chalmer's Center. These resources and others are critical to making a positive impact with those in extreme poverty around the world.Learn more about Chet's Creek ChurchLearn more about OneChild HERE

The irony of this training is the fact that I am writing the script while flying on a private plane from a secluded island in the Bahamas after spending 3 days spearfishing, eating, and hanging out with friends and clients. That was a moment of privilege. Spending your days with continual electricity is a privilege.     If you are listening to this talk, you have privilege. Privilege is “a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group”.  A more direct definition is to be “exempt from an obligation from which others are subject.”   How do you know if you are in a class of privilege?  Others shoulder a burden you don't have to shoulder.   It wastes our time to try and determine if we are privileged, and instead to ask “because we have privilege, what does that mean?”  In the barren desert of the middle east, a man hears a message.  “I will bless (privilege) you so that you can be a blessing (offer privilege to others).”   This training is about the so that.   When you have privilege that goal is not to consume the privilege you have, but instead to inventory the privilege, proximity yourself among those who do and don't have your privilege, and then offer privilege to others in a way that allows them to follow the same reinvestment strategies. The problem with privilege is that we tend to see it as terminal; either it stops with us (because we consume but don't re-invest, OR it stops with the direct person we share it with because they consume but don't re-invest). Brian Fikkert co-authored an aptly named and important book “When Helping Hurts” that opens our eyes to understand that when we have privilege, we want to share that privilege, and too often the privilege we share ends up doing more harm than if we would have just kept the privilege ourselves. It would help to redirect the privilege discussion back into the context of Executive Leadership and tie privilege back to our definition: proximity to motivate a team to pursue the named future you see. Let's look at consuming and deploying privilege through three lenses of our definition. First, privilege can bring proximity. There is a template for leveraging the privilege of money to influence friendships.  Of course, we are not condoning nor suggesting bribes or payoffs.  Instead, you can choose to deploy your money in places that provide you proximity for connection. We were at a resort with our family, clearly a place of privilege…it was a once in a lifetime type of trip.  This resort puts us in immediate proximity to people who had the same or more privilege than we had.   We get to talking with some of the other vacationers and over time get the direct email of a very well-known and influential music industry executive who has put some of the greatest acts in the world on the stage.  We sat and watched a World Cup match with he and his young son and developed a relationship.  The inanimate tool of our money provided us with “a special right…granted or available only to a particular person or group.”   It is good to consistently ask, “how can the privilege I have provide proximity to bring that privilege to others, or to provide new relationships that breed new privilege.” Secondly, privilege can breed motivation. When you have access to privilege you often have something someone else would like to have but is unable to attain. Think about the privilege of a well-known athlete who is willing to step down from his throne of notoriety and sincerely show up to read a book to a Kindergarten class, or visit patients at a hospital and offer encouragement. The athlete has the privilege of notoriety, influence, and voice…they offer that to those who do not and thus bring a unique motivation that might help that Kindergartner grow up to have a unique impact, or provide the motivation for the mental fight that a patient will need to conquer their disease. Privilege reinvested breeds new and novel privileges that can be perpetuated. Privilege consumed breeds bitterness, expectation, and myopic arrogance that pushes the privileged to think they are the ones responsible for their own privilege ignoring all of the investment of privilege that has been planted into their own lives.   This training exists in part because we don't want you to slowly become that. You are too generous, and you are too intentional for your life to slowly devolve into arrogance and self-importance. Thirdly, privilege helps to jump the various hurdles on the way to the named future that you see.   I enjoy Guy Raz' How I Built This Podcast…it is a fascinating look at the emotional inside of some of the world's most interesting businesses. Towards the end of each podcast, he asked a staple question, “Does your success have more to do with luck, or with skill?” I love the podcast, and I hate that question. Remember the old adage, “the harder I work, the luckier I get.”  When we have moments of momentum and success that we cannot explain we tend to call it luck.  Pausing to reflect we can actually align our “lucky moments” to moments of privilege; privilege that you had that connection, or were in that specific location.   There are things we coordinate or manipulate for our benefit, and there are things that “just happen”.  Pay close attention, ask yourself, “would this have happened if I did not have access to a certain privilege that others don't.” One day I might meet Carrie Underwood… it would feel like “luck”, but a short audit of my relationships and privileges reveals that I had the privilege of being a paying member of a mastermind group, that mastermind group offered me the privilege of meeting and getting to know a very talented guitarist and Dobro player, and that very talented guitarist had the privilege of being the Dobro player for Carrie Underwood. What looks like “luck” to most is actually privilege dressed in a lack of awareness and context.   History's wealthiest and wisest person whose privilege was well documented once declared, “all is vanity and chasing after wind.”   When we make privilege the end game, we become the walking dead. When we look at privilege as an investment to enjoy and reinvest… we make time for what matters most.   Finally, privilege can and will be a load to bear.  Share that load with people who have wisdom.  The word “team” has its roots in the concept of a team of pack horses…a unified group pulling heavy loads in a specific direction. Privilege requires building a team to help advise, direct, and hold account your privilege so that it remains a value to all, and not just you.   A business owner had accrued a significant sum of money in a profit account that he had setup to build up as his business grew. As we were reviewing progress I told him, “Congratulations on how you have grown that account.” He looked at me with a blank stare and responded, “just one more problem I've got to handle.” When you have resources, it is your responsibility to manage those resources.  Of course, most people are bent to desire more instead of less, and the more you have, the more you are required to distribute. The ultimate question you must answer is “what will you do with what you have” knowing that your response to that question will reveal the desire and state of your ultimate motivation. Be mindful, slow, and wise with the privilege that you have.

2/27/23 When Helping Hurts by City Tribe Church

Dr. Brian Fikkert and Lauren discuss what has changed in missional movements since publishing his monumental book, When Helping Hurts. The two have a riveting conversation about economic structures, how financial capital can work against mental health, and how the Western world can learn some of its best lessons from the Majority World. In this episode, you will be challenged to think about how globalizing capitalism can come at a cost to communal societies. ... EPISODE SHOW NOTES EPISODE TRANSCRITPION ... Links Kindred Exchange - Learn more and support ethical missions. Shop ABLE - Get 15% off your order with the code UPWARD15. Order Becoming Whole - Why the Opposite of Poverty Isn't the American Dream Order When Helping Hurts - How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor… and Yourself The Chalmers Center - Learn about the center and get connected ... Connect with Lauren Instagram / Leave a Review Connect with Brian Twitter / Linkedin

Dr. Brian Fikkert is a Professor of Economics and Community Development and the Founder and President of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College. He is coauthor of the best-selling book When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor…and Yourself as well as Helping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions, Helping Without Hurting in Church Benevolence, and From Dependence to Dignity: How to Alleviate Poverty Through Church-Centered Microfinance. Dr. Fikkert earned a Ph.D. in economics from Yale University, specializing in international economics and economic development. In this conversation, Brian and I talk about his book When Helping Hurts, which is easily the top 5 most influential books I've ever read. We also talk the pros and cons of short term mission trips and how churches can best partner with poorer churches without doing unintentional harm. Check out Brian's organization www.chalmers.org If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 

Many in the Parents of Goers community have already sent their children abroad. Some are just starting the "letting go" process. Our Goer kids often gain a heart for missions by being part of a short term mission trip.  Learn about the value of a short term mission trip for the Goer and  for the Stayer.We discussed the book, When Helping Hurts in this episode.

David Martínez & Nick Forrest chat about the harm that can be done through careless short-term mission work--as well as the deeply beneficial & life-changing effect it can have on participants. Tune in to learn the Swahilian phrase for a chronic complainer, hear David's story about traveling to the US after being a missionary kid in Spain, get Nick's & David's book recommendations on the subject, and much more.Dr. Martínez directs George Fox University's Study Abroad program and teaches SpanishNick Forrest is a pastor at Northside Community Church in Newberg, OR. He previously worked with YWAM in Arusha, TanzaniaIf you enjoy listening to the George Fox Talks podcast and would like to watch, too, check out our channel on YouTube! We also have a web page that features all of our podcasts, a sign-up for our weekly email update, and publications from the George Fox University community.

In today's podcast I interview Dr. Brian Fikkert, co-author of “When Helping Hurts” and Founder/President of the Chalmers Center. Link to "Becoming Whole" - https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Whole-Opposite-Poverty-American-ebook/dp/B07G2WLLJYYoutube - https://youtu.be/lpLwzCFtW18Audio - https://andymilleriii.com/media/podcastApple -  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-to-the-story-with-dr-andy-miller/id1569988895?uo=4 Contender: Going Deeper in the Book of Jude - This all-inclusive small group study on the book of Jude is out now. Check it out on the course page: http://courses.andymilleriii.com Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching - I'm excited to share some news with you.  Recently, I updated this PDF document and added a 45-minute teaching video with slides, explaining this tool. It's like a mini-course. If you sign up for my list, I will send this free resource to you. Sign up here - www.AndyMillerIII.com or Five Steps to Deeper Teaching and Preaching. Today's episode is brought to you by these two sponsors: Bill Roberts is a financial advisor, who has been serving the retirement planning and investment needs of individuals, families, non-profits, and churches for 25 years. He is a Certified Financial Planner and accredited investment fiduciary. Bill specializes in working with Salvation Army employees and officers by helping them realize their financial goals.  You can find out more about Bill's business at www.WilliamHRoberts.comANDWesley Biblical Seminary - Interested in going deeper in your faith? Check out our certificate programs, B.A., M.A.s, M.Div., and D.Min degrees. You will study with world-class faculty and the most racially diverse student body in the country. www.wbs.eduThanks too to Phil Laeger for the new podcast music. You can find out about Phil's music at https://www.laeger.net

Link to the book Allen mentions: When Helping Hurts 

A decade after the release of "When Helping Hurts," Brian Fikkert has teamed up with Kelly Kapic to offer deeper reflections on the topics of poverty, human flourishing, and God's story of change for the poor and ourselves. They believe the opposite of poverty isn't the American dream.

Enter our giveaway to attend the Radius Missiology Conference in person or virtually. Details at missionspodcast.com/radius22. Many missions-minded Christians have read When Helping Hurts and resonated with its message—that sometimes in missionary work, we can do more harm than good in the name of Jesus. But in When Helping Works: Alleviating Fear and Pain in Global Missions, Michael Bamwesigye Badriaki offers a counter-perspective. Is creating “dependence” on foreign missionaries the worst possible outcome? And are we making excuses that allow us to ignore the needy? Dr. Michael B. Badriaki has worked globally in education, holistic missions, global health, and consulting and leadership development for over 20 years. He is passionate about human flourishing, sharing hope and love with people. Michael is also committed to caring for people and children affected by war, poverty and certain hardships. Michael and Kristen co-founded the Global Leadership Community where together with a global team they seek to nurture leadership through quality education. Michael now serves as high school and middle school principal at Lancaster Mennonite in Lancaster, Pa. Subscribe now to never miss an episode when it drops. Support this podcast and impact God's mission. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionspodcast.com.

Brian Fikkert, author of When Helping Hurts and the founder and director of Chalmers Center for Economic Development, joins Terry and Alan for a conversation about helping people in poverty. Brian encourages churches and leaders to recognize that simply providing material goods often hurts more than it helps because it doesn't develop people. Brian provides insight about how to bring economic development and holistic transformation in our efforts to show mercy and how we can fulfill Isaiah 58 in “spending yourselves in behalf of the hungry.”

Brian Fikkert is the Founder and President of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development as well as the co-author of the well known book When Helping Hurts. From an early age, Brian felt called to work in the area of poverty. Despite his formal training in economics, he felt early on that the prevailing understanding of poverty left much lacking. On one hand, economists tended to define people as entirely physical. On the other hand, the church tended to define people as purely spiritual. But the more Brian was exposed to the poor, the more he came to see poverty as a complicated blend of the two.  Brian founded the Chalmers Center at Covenant College to guide the Church in it's response to poverty. Their initial work with microfinance and local savings unions worldwide has gone on to large scale operations with organizations like Hope International and Five Talents. And their work in the U.S. has expanded to include jobs preparedness, welfare training, and financial literacy. A number of years ago, Brian and the Chalmers Center published the well known book When Helping Hurts, which has become a cornerstone on the core principles of poverty alleviation. Brian had a wealth of wisdom to share on topics like knowing when to provide relief, rehabilitation, and development as well as how to flip from a needs-based approach to an assets-based approach. He also had some insightful thoughts on the ways that donors and nonprofits interact with each other and how we as givers can most wisely steward the dollars given to us. Listen now to hear all Brian had to share! QUOTES TO REMEMBER “We tend to define poverty as a lack of physical things, hence our solutions tend towards providing physical things” “The poor tend to describe their condition in far more psychological and social terms.” “If you can actually get people working again, it has it's own therapeutic effect.” “Most poor people in the world are not in a crisis, they are actually in a chronic condition.” There is a place for bringing in outside resources when the local resources are inadequate, but those outside resources should only be brought in when they compliment the internal resources rather than crush them.” “I think financial supporters have one of the most difficult jobs in the whole world.” “We've got to start moving into how God really works in the world, and most of us aren't functioning out of that very well.” “We are functioning out of a theory of change that is more reflective of a Western individualism than of a proper understanding of what a human being is.” “There's a better story for the poor, and there's a better story for us, than the story of the American Dream of highly individualistic, highly self-centered, highly materialistic existence.” “God has wired us to be priest-rulers to extend his reign and his worship from the Garden of Eden throughout all of creation. “ “Every nonprofit is terrified of their financial resource partners.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW The Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College The Innovate course by the Chalmers Center Brian's book When Helping Hurts Brian's books Becoming Whole and A Field Guide to Becoming Whole Hope International Five Talents Compassion International Tear Fund Reconciled World Seed Effect First Fruit The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Forum BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW 1 Peter 2:9 | The Royal Priesthood 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Revelation 5:10 | Kings and Rulers 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! If you have a thought about something you heard, or a story to share, please reach out! You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. You can also contact us directly from our contact page. If you want to engage with the Finish Line Community, check out our Facebook Group and our online forums.

There is no shortage of work in the call of the Great Commission, and God is using His Church all over the world in unique ways. He has called ITEC into this work by challenging us to to explore what it would look like to train and empower the Indigenous Church. We have had the opportunity to work all over the world and continue to learn ways to improve. In this episode of the Mission Minded podcast, ITEC Executive Director Jaime Saint presents 5 Principles to having sustainable, long-term impact on a short-term mission trip. Show Notes: Missions Dilemma and the Great Omission available at https://www.itecusa.org/resource-center/ When Helping Hurts: https://amzn.to/3HvN11F It's Not About the Nail Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg Mission Minded Podcast: In Matthew 28:18-20, we are commissioned by Christ to make disciples of all the nations. Living in light of this scriptural call can be challenging. Join the Mission Minded podcast and participate in discussions with mission-minded individuals that come from diverse backgrounds, working all over the world, to bring some of the challenges into the light. The ITEC team hosts special guests who tell stories, ask questions, and inspire us to use our God-given gifts to take the Gospel to our neighbors and the nations. Mission Minded Podcast is produced by ITEC. The goal of this podcast is to inspire conversations about Great Commission participation. The views, organizations, and individuals represented, interviewed, and discussed on the podcast do not necessarily represent an official position or formal partnerships with ITEC.

Human suffering and poverty are everywhere. You know you need to give, but is it possible that your helping is actually hurting? Compassion and Christian conscience demand we do something, but what we do and how we do it matters greatly. Join Kim Wier, author of The Art of Friendship, and Dr. Brian Fikkert to understand how friendship is the key to effective giving. Dr. Fikkert is the author of When Helping Hurts. Kim Wier is a speaker, radio talk show host, Bible teacher, and author of the book, The Art of Friendship and other titles.    The Art of Friendship Podcast is part of Hope On Demand!

Steve Corbett, author of When Helping Hurts, joins Matt and Alyson to talk about how some forms of charity can be toxic to the communities they are trying to serve. Together, they dive into conversation about how people can walk with communities in need and support them in a way that creates lasting change.

Thousands of people across the United States don't currently have an address or a roof over their heads. This problem can often feel much too big to solve - but could it be possible that such a massive crisis has some simple solutions? Today, Melany Jackson is back to teach us what we can do to help folks without homes, and I'm telling you - it's easier than you think! Last week, Melany shared with us about the nonprofit ministry she started in Central Illinois to help be a part of systemic change for friends without addresses. This time, she's sharing more about homelessness as it relates to our country. We're talking about stats, causes, and common misconceptions about the homeless population. We're also discussing what it's truly like to live on the streets and how we should handle situations of panhandling. I found this conversation so helpful as someone who always wants to help those in need, but isn't always sure what to say or do when I find myself in those situations! While Melany does share some great tips and conversation starters for these times, her biggest message is this: treat them with dignity. We're talking about real human lives here, so it makes sense that the most practical and impactful thing we can do is to treat them like fellow human beings. Doing things like making eye contact, saying hi, and showing basic kindness can make a huge difference in the life of someone who is homeless and often ignored. This practice can also help us to have more empathy for our brothers and sisters in need. After all, isn't that how we would want to be treated if we were in their shoes? Links from the show: Chews Happiness: https://shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=1709783&u=2650427&m=101836&urllink=&afftrack= (https://shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=1709783&u=2650427&m=101836&urllink=&afftrack=) When Helping Hurts by Corbett, Fikkert, and Perkins: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6595233-when-helping-hurts?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=B5j2QJqe0z&rank=1 (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6595233-when-helping-hurts?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=B5j2QJqe0z&rank=1) Toxic Charity by Robert D. Lupton: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11869727-toxic-charity?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=ritTQKGThQ&rank=1 (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11869727-toxic-charity?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=ritTQKGThQ&rank=1) Under the Overpass by Mike Yankoski: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/208767.Under_the_Overpass?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=imvO7sAQ2y&rank=1 (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/208767.Under_the_Overpass?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=imvO7sAQ2y&rank=1) More Than Enough by Melany Jackson: https://morethanenoughthebook.com/ (https://morethanenoughthebook.com/) Radical by David Platt: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7497897-radical?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=FuV9xDtI93&rank=2 (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7497897-radical?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=FuV9xDtI93&rank=2) Connect with Mackenzie: Instagram: @theheartfelthippie // @the.enlightenme.podcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theheartfelthippie/ (https://www.facebook.com/theheartfelthippie/) Website: http://www.heartfelthippie.com (www.heartfelthippie.com) Email: mackenzie.heartfelthippie@gmail.com Connect with Melany: Book: http://www.morethanenoughthebook.com (www.morethanenoughthebook.com)

An enriching conversation with Steve Corbett, co-author of When Helping Hurts. Listen to Mr. Corbett share how we can fall in love with the Church while serving, making sure short-term teams don't do long-term hurt and to help teams focus on the real work that surfaces back at the home base. The importance to allow God to use us as vessels for kingdom work.

Today we are revisiting David's teaching from our Wednesday of Worship event on March 10. The title is "Life and Death". It is one of the greatest lies from Hell and the world that says that true life is found throwing off rules and parents and teachers and living for yourself and the moment. David also includes his own personal experiences as a teen struggling through this lie. Resources referenced: When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fickert "Three Simple Rules Poor Teens Should Follow to Join the Middle Class" By Ron Haskins of the Brookings Institute.

Today on the show we are talking to Justin Lonas of the Chalmers Center. The Chalmers Center equips local churches to address the broken relationships at the root of material poverty, living out Jesus' Kingdom today. The Chalmers Center was founded in 1999 by Dr. Brian Fikkert, the author of the best-selling book, 'When Helping Hurts.' Justin read When Helping Hurts with his church missions committee in 2009, starting a shift in his thinking about poverty and the church that led to his joining the team at Chalmers in 2016 after serving in different roles for 10 years at an international missions organization. At Chalmers, he coordinates the work behind books, articles, blog posts, online courses, video projects, small group curriculums, and produced by Chalmers' staff and ministry partners around the core concepts of a biblical framework for poverty alleviation and works with churches and organizations to help them apply these ideas in their ministry programs. Justin and his wife, Rachel, have four daughters, and he has served his local church as a deacon, Sunday school teacher, and outreach volunteer. He enjoys the outdoors, literature, writing, and cooking for his family and others. He holds a B.A. in communications from Bryan College (2006), and is a current M. Div. student at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta. You can connect with Justin on Twitter by clicking here. If you want to watch today's interview, click here to check out our YouTube channel. Want to help out the Churchology Podcast? - Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. - Leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. Next week we are talking to Charles Stone about his book, 'Holy Noticing: The Bible: Your Brain, and the Mindful Space Between Moments.' New episodes come out every Tuesday!

When helping hurts…A powerful phrase that will lead this week's worldview discussion with co-author of When Helping Hurts, Steve Corbett.With more than 400,000 copies in print, When Helping Hurts is a paradigm-forming contemporary classic on the subject of poverty alleviation.Learn more about the book here!

This episode is foundational for the larger story that unfolds as the podcast continues. More information on the Gospel Story-arc Project and the science of story is available from gospelstoryarc.org, including free downloads under the "Courses" tab. "It's Your Story Too!" NEW! Get Transcripts and Notes for each Episode here: https://gospelstoryarc.thinkific.com/courses/SOW-podcast-PDF A Note From Dr. Randal Gilmore About "the four types of perfect relationships" I first read of these being categorized as "four types of perfect relationships" in a book called "When Helping Hurts," which was quoting from an earlier book by Bryant Myers, entitled "Walking With the Poor." --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/randal-gilmore/support

Welcome to The Feeling is Musical! Today, we chat with returning guest, Yana Ramos, a music therapist, as they share about how actions meant to help autistic people actually exposes them to significant risk of harm and trauma. Transcript of “When Helping Hurts” available at www.scMusicProject.org/Podcast. RESOURCES Inspiration Porn and the Objectification of Disability by Stella Young | TedTalk Disability Justice at the Intersections by Ned Calonge | Online Article Thinking Person's Guide to Autism by Maxfield Sparrow | Online Article The Autistic OT - @TheAutisticOT on Facebook & Instagram Ask Me, I'm Autistic Facebook Group ABOUT THE MUSIC PROJECT From its origin as the Everett Symphony, the Snohomish County Music Project has since transformed into one of the leading music therapy providers in the Pacific Northwest. Visit www.scMusicProject.org to learn more. FOLLOW US Instagram // www.instagram.com/scMusicProject Twitter // www.twitter.com/scMusicProject Facebook // www.facebook.com/scMusicProject

Melissa was named Fort Worth Magazine's Best Philanthropist in 2018 and Fort Worth Inc's 400 Most Influential People in 2019. She's a traveling speaker and currently the Founder & Executive Director of The Net, an organization that serves refugees, the homeless, and survivors of trafficking. The Net recently launched a social enterprise called Worthy Co., that employs survivors of trafficking, and today Melissa shares with Rachel Sipperley her journey of justice work in entrepreneurship and social enterprise! What you will learn in this episode: The incredible story of the Net and Worthy CO, a social enterprise that employees survivors of traffickingThe common misconceptions of prostitution and what you didn't know about sex trafficking in the United States How to incorporate a give-back that impacts people and why People Over Profit matters most Tangible Tips:  Why you need to have a healthy relationship with failure & a healthy "failure culture" at your companyKnowing your why because it will carry you through the tough timesThe Entrepreneurial Couple - tips for having a healthy marriage while running multiple businessesResources:The Marriage Journalhttps://theroloffs.com/products/themarriagejournalStart with Why - Simon Sinekhttps://www.amazon.com/Start-Why-Leaders-Inspire-Everyone/dp/1591846447Exodus Cry - anti-trafficking podcasthttps://exoduscry.com/When Helping Hurts - caring for the poor holisticallyhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/0802409989/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_eUtyEb1PHAB0HAbout MelissaMelissa graduated from Dallas Baptist University with a degree in social work and has been working with different NGOs locally & globally, serving people in poverty since 2002. She is currently the Founder & Executive Director of The Net, an organization that serves refugees, the homeless, and survivors of trafficking. The Net recently launched a social enterprise called Worthy Co., that employs survivors of trafficking. Worthy Co is set to open their brick and mortar retail store this spring. She is married to her husband of 12 years and has two little girls, Rosie and Justice.Did You Know?Melissa is a partner in a restaurant, Brewed, and a mixed used retail and event space called The 4 Eleven in Fort Worth.She was named Fort Worth Business Press 40 Under 40, and Fort Worth Magazine's Best Philanthropist in 2018. Named one of Fort Worth Inc's 400 Most Influential People in 2019.She's a traveling speaker, sharing about the work of justice with her audience.Melissa is currently a Summit Fellow - 2 year fellowship for social entrepreneurs and non profit visionariesHer husband was a career musician for most of their marriage - now fellow entrepreneur started/owns his own real estate brokerage, and marketing company, 6th Avenue.Melissa is a proud adoptive mama of her daughter, Justice.You can connect and learn more about Melissa and the Worthy Co here:https://worthy-co.com/http://www.theices.net/melissawww.instagram.com/melissaicewww.instagram.com/theworthycowww.instagram.com/thenetfwFor questions, comments, or to stay in touch please check out Thefemalefounderpodcast.com or email rachel@thefemalefounderpodcast.com

After the raise of the book and Netflix documentary "When Helping Hurts" many people have been left wondering if short-term missions efforts cause more harm than good. In today's conversation with Rich Franzen we talk about how short-term missions are the lifeblood of overseas missions work. About Rich: Michelle Franzen began their missions journey when they both embarked on their first short-term mission trips in their late teens. With hearts wrecked for the nations, they continued to pursue the Lord's calling as they finished studying at Oral Roberts University in 1993; Rich graduated with a BS in Education and minor in counseling, and Michelle with a BS in Education. Eager to inspire the next generation with the life-altering call to missions, Rich and Michelle spent the next 13 years working with Teen Mania Ministries as they organized Acquire the Fire youth conferences for thousands of teens, and simultaneously began to train, recruit, and send thousands of young adults and leaders to over 25 countries throughout the globe. Through their international travel, a yearning emerged in their hearts for Africa; a plagued continent with 68% of the world's HIV/AIDS population. As a result, they moved their family to South Africa in 2004, and established Impact Africa – a non-profit organization whose mission is to serve, educate, and rescue individuals while provoking them toward a passionate relationship with Jesus Christ through socially relevant outlets of ministry service; which in turn deeply impact individuals, communities, and nations. Impact Africa is a South African Section 21 company with an additional U.S.-based office registered as a 501 (c)(3) non-profit. Since Impact Africa was founded, they have begun multiple self-sustaining, job-creating preschools through Impact Kids. They operate in 4 different locations with 429+ children and teachers being fed daily (4,290+ meals a week!) as they receive high-quality education. They also founded Impact Baby Rescue, which reaches out to desperate mothers through awareness presentations, crisis pregnancy counseling, and rescuing abandoned babies. These precious babies receive life-long family care in our Baby Home until the point of adoption into their forever family! Rich and Michelle have hosted thousands of international individuals/teams through Impact Mission Adventures. Each participant receives high-quality evangelical training and experience during their time with Impact Africa. The Franzen's also launched Impact Students, where they educate high school students on the effects of drug/alcohol abuse, premarital sex, abortion, and other relevant issues, while also having the opportunity to respond to the Gospel! Rich and Michelle founded and facilitate Impact Africa's gap year program; The Missions Experience Program. This is a 3, 6, or 12-month on-the-field missions experience that exists to train and equip young adults to pursue the Great Commission no matter where they are or what they do. Rich and Michelle are frequent speakers at conferences, churches, and training events world-wide. Rich is on the Board of Directors of the Co-Lab Foundation; a non-profit organization which connects like-minded businesses, churches, and people with projects around Johannesburg. Additionally, Rich serves as a Board Member and VP of a U.S.-based mission sending agency, Launch International. Connect with Impact Africa: https://www.impactafrica.org Connect with Renewed Leadership Visit the Renewed Leadership webpage: https://allsha.re/p/usO4ggw9HrH Visit The Pastors Round Table PODCAST: https://allsha.re/p/SOcsEEUx5P5 Visit the Renewed Leadership BLOG: https://allsha.re/p/gaAQ22iVtdt Follow Renewed Leadership on FACEBOOK: https://allsha.re/p/cowMYseRp9p Follow Renewed Leadership on INSTAGRAM: https://allsha.re/p/AKUamQCfNxN --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/the-pastors-round-table/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-pastors-round-table/support

A huge thanks to Joseph McDade for his generous permission to use his music: https://josephmcdade.com/ Thanks to Palmtoptiger17 for the beautiful logo: https://www.instagram.com/palmtoptiger17/ Discord Discussion Board: https://disboard.org/server/474580298630430751  The 80% (My Book): https://www.amazon.com/80-Conservative-Evangelicals-Prove-Relativists-ebook/dp/B07RDPW2NZ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=j.g.+elliot&qid=1573560697&sr=8-1 Various reflections related to consequentialism: https://www.dckreider.com/blog-theological-musings/category/pragmatism-and-consequentialism When Helping Hurts book: https://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802409989/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1574185196&sr=8-2 Greek Orthodox Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/st-spyridon/id980578028 Revolution of Values: https://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Values-Reclaiming-Public-Common-ebook/dp/B07V7YY2MV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=revolution+of+values&qid=1589546203&sr=8-1 From "Revolution of Values:" I strongly recommend chapter two which hits very hard at the heart of our discussion on grace and generosity. " The Bible in the hands of rich men became divorced from it's social and political context. Key to avoiding its prophetic challenge of economic inequality and the exploitation of poor people in ancient economies, was a focus on the Bible's spiritual message. On this reading, all of Hebrew scripture with its prophets with long beards and hair shirts confronting greedy kings, its message becomes a morality play meant to demonstrate each individual's need of redemption from sin. If wealth is the visible sign you are blessed, then poor people are spiritually needy.When rich men gather to read a spiritualized Bible, their thoughts turn not towards repentance, but charity. Thus the Bible's concern for justice towards all people and a concern for the poor became a reminder to rich men that it was important to sit on non-profits and charity boards. Helping poor people wasn't only about making sure they had food to eat or a place to sleep. It was ultimately about imparting spiritual blessing on them, holding out the hope that they too may pull themselves up by their bootstraps and be saved. 'When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me,' wasn't Jesus's summary statement about how the nations of the earth would be judged on the last day. It was instead a reminder that industrialists must also be philanthropists. Great men who prove their spiritual greatness by offering to bestow it on anyone who aspires to be just like them.   ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

You can take a trip around the world, or start right in your own neighborhood. Mission work is simply the act of making disciples. Jack Eason of Crossover Cups Mission joins the podcast to talk about ways The Bridge Family of Listeners can get started in mission work!SHOW NOTES:0:50 - Jack Eason of Crossover Cups Mission and Ben Sorrells join us this episode1:25 - What is Crossover Cups Mission?2:45 - Have you ever been on a mission trip?4:35 - Why send all those people instead of just raising money?5:30 - How did Jack Eason get started in mission work?8:15 - Local, Regional, or International - How do you start to find a mission aligned with your skills and passions?11:00 - Do you feel inadequate or unqualified because of your past?13:55 - "Stop trying to be the Holy Spirit!"15:30 - What is one of your strongest mission trip memories?23:25 - More hurdles to going on a mission trip -or- Legitimate questions to get prepared24:40 - When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert28:00 - Takeaways Feedback, or Show Ideas? Send an email to podcast@887thebridge.comDownload The Bridge Mobile App to get the latest podcast episodes as soon as they are published!Please share The Bridge Podcast with a friend if you enjoyed this episode. SUBSCRIBE to The Bridge Podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play Music, and Spotify! The Bridge Podcast is still growing, and your positive review and 5-star rating would help. Podcast Sponsored by Boardwalk Plaza Hotel and Victoria's Restaurant