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Kevin Withem has a heartfelt conversation with David Bruce, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and elder. Kevin and David discuss Peter Scazzero's work "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality" (Part 2) and how it applies to Healthy Church and spiritually healthy Christians. EHS Book: https://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Healthy-Spirituality-Impossible-Spiritually/dp/0310348498 Learn more at https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/ Contact David Bruce through Psychology Today's portal at https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/david-allen-bruce-culver-city-ca/822190 We survive on your donations: donate at www.commongroundsunity.org/donate. CGU has a vision to create and support gatherings of unity-minded Christians around the globe. Imagine the good news of these gatherings modeling the prayer of Jesus in our divided world. Please give us feedback by posting your thoughts and suggestions on our Facebook Page. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100068486982733 Please check out commongroundsunity.org to learn more about CGU, how to subscribe to the newsletter, join the Facebook group, or find the YouTube Channel. Check out our gatherings on the About page, where you can connect with other unity-minded Christians in your area. If you cannot find a gathering in your area, we can help you start one. It's not difficult or time-consuming, and we will help you out along the way. It really does, simply, start with a cup of coffee. If you want to volunteer or ask questions, please email John at john@commongroundsunity.org. Until next time, God bless, and remember, “Unity Starts With A Cup of Coffee.”
Healthy relationships through dharma-bhakti balance _ Emotionally Healthy Spirituality - 3 Gita 3.26 by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
Friend of the show, Brook Smith, is back in the studio with Susan to share her personal story of finding God in the hardest places of life and how Romans 5:2b-5 was part of that journey.To purchase "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality" by Peter Scazzero that Susan mentioned in Today's Episode:AMAZONMARDELBARNES & NOBLETo Learn More about SOZO House, you can click here: SOZO House Rest. Heal. Renew.
3 Positive Responses to Negative Emotions _ Emotionally Healthy Spirituality Part 2 Chaitanya Charan (1) by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
Kevin Withem has a heartfelt conversation with David Bruce, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and elder. Kevin and David discuss Peter Scazzero's work "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality" and how it applies to Healthy Church and spiritually healthy Christians. EHS Book: https://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Healthy-Spirituality-Impossible-Spiritually/dp/0310348498 Learn more at https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/ Contact David Bruce through Psychology Today's portal at https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/david-allen-bruce-culver-city-ca/822190 We survive on your donations: donate at www.commongroundsunity.org/donate. CGU has a vision to create and support gatherings of unity-minded Christians around the globe. Imagine the good news of these gatherings modeling the prayer of Jesus in our divided world. Please give us feedback by posting your thoughts and suggestions on our Facebook Page. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100068486982733 Please check out commongroundsunity.org to learn more about CGU, how to subscribe to the newsletter, join the Facebook group, or find the YouTube Channel. Check out our gatherings on the About page, where you can connect with other unity-minded Christians in your area. If you cannot find a gathering in your area, we can help you start one. It's not difficult or time-consuming, and we will help you out along the way. It really does, simply, start with a cup of coffee. If you want to volunteer or ask questions, please email John at john@commongroundsunity.org. Until next time, God bless, and remember, “Unity Starts With A Cup of Coffee.”
What does redemptive leadership mean? As Christians, we have a unique calling: not just to lead, but to serve. What does this look like in today's culture, and how can we serve as leaders and foster an environment of abundant grace and joy wherever we are?Christianity Today's Dr. Nicole Massie Martin helps us to understand how we can nail outdated models of leadership to the cross, and what it will take to replace them with Biblical ones:“We need to nail to the cross what is a very secular understanding … of [power, ego, and performance], so that what is resurrected through Christ might be redemptive and bring glory to God and good to the people that we lead.”This conversation is from an Online Conversation recorded in May 2025. We hope this conversation will inspire you to identify the ways you lead, and how you can step further into leading with grace, humility, and joy.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Peter ScazzeroKilling Comparison: Reject the Lie You Aren't Good Enough and Live Confident in Who God Made You To Be, Nona JonesGo deeper into the issues discussed in this episode with these Trinity Forum Readings:How Much Land Does a Man Need?; Leo TolstoyA Man Who Changed His Times; William WilberforceLetter from Birmingham Jail; Martin Luther King, Jr.Who Stands Fast?; Dietrich BonhoefferNarrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass; Frederick Douglass
1 Emotionally healthy spirituality - why the mind needs to be comforted not just controlled Sydney by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
2 Emotionally healthy spirituality - when tolerance is helpful and when harmful _ Sydney by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
Why Emotions Matter_ 1 Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Wellington, New Zealand - Chaitanya Charan by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
3 Emotionally healthy spirituality - do the things that matter to me matter to Krishna _ Sydney by Exploring mindfulness, yoga and spirituality
Why is it that so many ministry leaders—people called to reflect Christ's love—so often end up burned out, disillusioned, or driven by power and platform instead of humility and service? It's heartbreaking when church leadership doesn't “smell like the gospel,” and instead resembles the very systems of profit and self-promotion it should prophetically resist.In this episode, Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and author of Formed to Lead, unpacks what true spiritual formation for leaders looks like, how to hold humility and faith in tension, and how suffering and the wilderness can become gifts in our ministry.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Jensen observes that much leadership in the church fails to reflect the gospel and often focuses on power, platform, or profit.Large numbers of Christian leaders experience burnout or moral, character, or spiritual failure, leading to disillusionment among younger generations.Jason Jensen asserts that the Gospel of Luke presents a radically different, subversive vision of leadership, centering the vulnerable and overlooked.Leadership in God's kingdom includes all people, from parents to presidents, and turns conventional power dynamics upside down.Christian leadership requires holding together the paradox of tender humility and bold faith.Jason Jensen describes the spiritual formation of a leader as a lifelong, iterative process marked by failure, repentance, and receiving the love of God.Embracing wilderness seasons—times of pain, failure, or dryness—is essential for spiritual growth and character development.Markus Watson invites Jason Jensen to share from personal experience how suffering shaped his faith and leadership, prompting stories of transformation after injury and failure.Experiencing grief, loss, and mistakes can be some of the most formative experiences for a leader's development and empathy.Depth and authenticity in leadership are formed by embracing—not bypassing—suffering and wilderness experiences.Jason Jensen highlights Steve Hayner's example of leadership, specifically his ability to listen well, include others, and help others feel loved and safe.Steve Hayner practiced “expansive discourse” and adaptive leadership, carrying pain with others and facilitating mutual learning rather than judgment.Sustainable organizational change requires time, patience, and leaders who bring everyone to the table and foster shared purpose.Offering one's life—and even one's death—as a gift to God and others represents the culmination of a spiritual journey, embodying humility, sacrifice, and openness.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason Jensen:formedtolead.comInstagramXFacebookBooks mentioned:Formed to Lead, by Jason JensenRelated episodes:244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we're dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what's happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.In this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough websiteBooks mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey DavidheiserRelated Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat254: Endless Expectations and Emotional ExhaustionGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Speaker: Dan Walz Recorded: 31st August 2025
Significant Women with Carol McLeod | Carol Mcleod Ministries
On this week's episode of Significant Women, I welcome my sister in the faith, Natalie Runion. Natalie is an author, pastor, and communicator with a passion for helping women walk in unity instead of comparison or competition. In our honest and heartfelt conversation, we talk about gossip, drama, friendship, and the hard reality that sometimes—even in the church—we don't always like each other. But Natalie's wisdom and biblical insights invite us back to a place of grace, generosity, and Spirit-filled sisterhood.Key PointsThe surprising story behind Natalie's book title: I Don't Even Like WomenChildhood friendships and why adult relationships can feel more complicatedGossip as a symptom of deeper heart issues—and how to lead groups away from itComparison and how the story of Mary and Elizabeth teaches us to celebrate one another instead of competeDeborah and Jael: two women who modeled partnership and obedience for God's gloryNavigating “high drama” friendships and learning emotional regulationWhat true friendship looks like: transparency, listening, and accessibilityObedience as the key to a truly significant lifeScriptures that anchor Natalie: Matthew 10:16, Luke 1 (Mary and Elizabeth), Judges 4–5 (Deborah & Jael)Resources MentionedI Don't Even Like Women by Natalie RunionPete Scazzero's Emotionally Healthy Spirituality series (leadership, relationships)Key Scriptures: Luke 1, Judges 4–5, Matthew 10:16, James 3 Connect with Natalie at https://natalierunion.com/Order ‘I Don't Even Like Women' and Other Lies That Get in the Way of Sacred Sisterhood at https://a.co/d/bGDgdhT Have a prayer request or feedback?Email Carol at: carol@carolmcleodministries.comShe and her team would love to pray for you. Stay Connected:Subscribe to the Significant Women Podcast and share this episode with a friend who needs to be reminded of her worth today.Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carolmcleodministriesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/carolmcleodministriesYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/@CarolMcLeodMinistries The Significant Women Podcast with Carol McLeod is edited and produced by WileyCraft Productions. Visit https://wileycraftproductions.com/ to learn more.
✅ Why your emotional health is the greatest gift to your kids ✅ How to parent non-reactively when hormones and emotions run high ✅ The "backpack" you're handing your children (and how to lighten it) ✅ Simple calendar strategies that reveal what you truly value Full Show Notes Fall 2025 DadAwesome Accelerator SUMMARY Parenting doesn't have to be about survival mode. In this episode, Glenn Packiam shares how intentional rhythms and a focus on resilience can transform your family life. From learning to be non-reactive when hormones hit to using your calendar as a tool for what you truly value, Glenn offers practical wisdom for dads navigating everything from toddlers to young adults getting married. Plus, discover why the healthiest gift you can give your kids might be your own emotional well-being. Key Takeaways: You're going to hand your kids a "backpack" whether you like it or not—the goal is to make it as light as possible by dealing with your own emotional health first. Non-reactive parenting starts with slowing your breath and asking "what else is going on here?" instead of jumping to conclusions. Resilience isn't about avoiding hard emotions—it's about how quickly you recover and what you learn from difficult seasons. Your calendar reveals your true values; intentional rhythms like family dinners and Sabbath don't happen by accident. One of the greatest gifts you can give your children is your own repentance when you mess up. GUEST: Glenn Packiam is the author of The Intentional Year and several other books focused on spiritual formation and resilience. He's a pastor, speaker, and father of four children ranging from teenagers to young adults. Glenn lives in Southern California with his wife Holly, and his oldest daughter recently got engaged. He's passionate about helping parents move from survival mode to intentional, rhythmic family life that builds resilience in both parents and children. LINKS Send a Voice Message to DadAwesome Learn about the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 Download a free chapter of the DadAwesome book The Intentional Year by Glenn & Holly Packiam Resilient Pastor resources Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Bias isn't always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It's part of being human, but as leaders, it's our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity.In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it's so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender.Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver.People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement.Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth.People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own.Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus' teaching about removing the plank from one's own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias.Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy.Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking.Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants.Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right.Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness.Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations.Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias.Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities.Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions.Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God's presence.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan UniversityBooks mentioned:The Unbiased Self, by Erin DeversRelated episodes:252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai AumanGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Speaker: Dan Walz Recorded: 17 August 2025
Speaker: Matt Malcolm Recorded: 10th August 2025
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Learn how real transformation in leadership begins when we shift our focus from what's happening to us to what's happening within us.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Ep. 262, Fro Fired to Flourishing.“I had to turn my attention from what happened to me to what was happening within me."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Change leaders cultivate self-awareness by focusing on their internal responses rather than solely external circumstances.Transformative leadership requires individuals to process their own emotional reactions before leading others through change.Leaders grow when they move beyond blaming external events and explore what pain reveals about their deeper character.Navigating difficult transitions means finding growth by going through challenges, not simply avoiding or getting over them.Lasting change in ministry or leadership begins when individuals reflect on and learn from their personal setbacks.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Speaker: Dan Walz Recorded: 27th July 2025
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!More and more, we find ourselves living in what we might call a post-Christian society. And more and more, preachers and ministry leaders are finding that the methods they were trained in don't always resonate in a post-Christian context. In this episode, Mark Glanville, the author of Preaching in a New Key, brings together his experience as a jazz musician, pastor, and a scholar of the Old Testament to invite us into a new vision for preaching—one that helps us navigate the transition from Christian to post-Christian culture. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Mark Glanville explains that both jazz and Christian faith involve learning and internalizing tradition, then improvising freshly within it.Jazz musicians practice and absorb the rhythms and melodies of their tradition, but always play something new in performance.Mark Glanville illustrates how biblical preachers should immerse themselves in scripture, becoming shaped by its themes and stories, much like jazz musicians learn their craft.The biblical tradition requires creative and contextual re-interpretation, as seen in how ancient scribes reimagined the metaphor of covenant.Preaching in a post-Christian society means recognizing that faith no longer enjoys cultural support and must grapple with mixed experiences of doubt and trust.Mark Glanville describes post-Christian contexts as places where church and societal values diverge, making the preaching task more complex.Congregants bring complex emotional and spiritual questions to church, rather than the simple expectation of receiving trusted doctrine.Markus Watson notes that contemporary preaching requires greater sensitivity, awareness of listeners' stories, and often more lyrical, dialogical communication.Mark Glanville emphasizes gaining relational intelligence through ongoing pastoral conversations and deep listening with parishioners.Preaching today involves “reversing the flow”—rather than proclaiming “thus says the Lord,” preachers reveal the beauty of Jesus within the text and invite fresh connection.Mark Glanville highlights that healthy preaching depends on the preacher's own healthy inner and emotional life.Preachers must recognize when they are operating from their “defended self”—speaking from wounds or fear, rather than from a secure, loving place in Christ.Scripture addresses communities, not individuals, so preaching should prioritize communal formation and invite congregations to embody Christ together.Mark Glanville encourages pastors to preach, model, and pray for the transformation they seek, stirring the congregation's collective imagination and trusting the Spirit to work through everyone, not just the leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Mark Glanville:Website – www.markglanville.orgBlue Note Theology podcastBooks mentioned:Preaching in a New Key, by Mark GlanvilleRefuge Reimagined, by Mark Glanville and Luke GlanvilleRelated episodes:250. The Prophetic Challenge of DecoGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In a world that celebrates rapid growth, platform-building, and constant success, it's easy to take on leadership strategies that promise bigger, better, and faster results. But when these approaches clash with the invitation of Jesus to embrace the cross, where does true, lasting influence come from?In this episode, Nicole Massie Martin, author of Nailing It, unpacks the spiritual paradox at the heart of healthy leadership—how surrender, humility, and even seasons of struggle can form us as leaders and empower the people we serve.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCUDE:Christian leaders often merge values like maximizing and growing their ministries, risking a "resurrection only" mindset that ignores suffering.Markus Watson highlights that the moments of deepest closeness with God often emerge from times of pain.Nicole Martin frames power neutrally, stating that its impact depends on how leaders use it—to empower or to hoard.Power must be used for God's glory and for empowering others, not for self-aggrandizement.Markus Watson admits that the temptation for influence and control is a real struggle in leadership, even when intentions are good.Nicole Martin explains that surrendering power as a leader looks like developing teams and creating an environment where others feel empowered to fulfill their calling.Nicole Martin shares a personal story of feeling powerless as a board member until another leader affirmed her authority and encouraged her participation.Empowerment should be modeled by leaders who intentionally invite others to use their own power and gifts.Ego is complex and influenced by cultural worldviews such as honor-shame, guilt-innocence, and power-fear.Nicole Martin emphasizes the importance of anchoring one's self-worth in the love of God, not in achievement or shame.Markus Watson describes how personal failure and pain loosened his unhealthy grip on ego and led him to ground his worth in being God's beloved.Nicole Martin asserts that healthy ego in leadership is characterized by deep confidence, humility, and openness, rooted in one's belovedness by God.Leaders must recalibrate their pace and surrender speed to God's timing, resisting the burnout that comes from adopting the relentless pace of the world.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Christianity TodaySoulfire International MinistriesBooks mentioned:Nailing It, by Nicole Massie MartinLife of the Beloved, by Henri NouwenAbba's Child, by Brennan ManningSurrender to Love, by David BennerEmotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter ScazeroFalling Upward, by Richard RohrRelated episodes:112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai AumanClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Flute 360 | Episode 330: "This Is Real Life – Two Flutists, One Faith, and a Journey Through It All with Dr. Kristin Caliendo" This episode isn't just a conversation—it's a moment of truth, healing, and deep connection. Dr. Heidi Kay Begay and Dr. Kristin Caliendo come together for a raw and heartfelt discussion on what it means to live a fully integrated life as a flutist, believer, caregiver, mother, teacher, and friend. It's for the listener who feels pulled in too many directions and is craving clarity, energy, peace, and purpose. If you've been questioning how to juggle it all—your health, studio, family, calling, and faith—this conversation meets you right where you are. It's a reminder that your body is sacred, your energy is a resource, and your identity is not defined by a title—but by who God says you are. Main Points: How faith, food, and friendship sustain us through life's hardest seasons. The connection between energy and your environment: food, people, habits. Caregiving, grief, and the supernatural peace that only God can give. What it really means to steward your body as a temple. Letting go of performance perfectionism and embracing presence in your playing. Redefining success beyond the degree, job title, or performance. Using your music and teaching as a vehicle for ministry and healing. The daily decision to live intentionally—one minute, one rehearsal, one lesson at a time. Resources Mentioned: Iowa State Daily on grapes vs. red wine for cancer prevention: grapes (especially red/purple varieties) contain higher levels of resveratrol without the risks associated with alcohol – click here to read article! Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero Get Out of Your Head by Jennie Allen Sacred Rest by Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith Atomic Habits by James Clear Guest's Information: Dr. Kristin Caliendo is a flutist, educator, mother, and caregiver with a heart for holistic living and Christ-centered purpose. She brings decades of wisdom not just as a performer and teacher, but as a woman deeply attuned to what it means to live aligned with her faith. Through every season—especially the hard ones—she models what grace, grit, and God-led living can truly look like. Connect with Kristin via email at kristinflute@yahoo.com. Follow Heidi! Follow Flute 360 via TikTok! Follow Flute 360 via Instagram! Follow Flute 360 via Twitter! Follow Flute 360 via LinkedIn! Follow Flute 360 via Facebook! Subscribe to the Flute 360's YouTube Channel! Join the Flute 360 Newsletter! Join the Flute 360 Family's Facebook Private Group! Join the Flute 360's Accelerator Program Here! TIER 1 for $37 TIER 2 for $67 TIER 3 for $97
I enjoyed this book. I have mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast and probably encouraged you to read it. Join me this week for a book review of sorts. Peter Scazzero writes about ten symptoms of emotionally unhealthy spirituality. Using biblical principles, he works to focus individuals into a deeper, more meaningful relationship with God and others. It's worth the read. Emotionally Healthy Spirituality: It's Impossible to Be Spiritually Mature, While Remaining Emotionally Immature
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode explores the critical role awareness plays in avoiding burnout and fostering healthy leadership practices. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss personal anecdotes and practical strategies to cultivate awareness, so we can better navigate the challenges that come our way. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to lead a more intentional life, this conversation is packed with insights to help you break free from autopilot mode and make mindful adjustments for a more effective and fulfilling leadership journey.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jonathan Hoover in Ep. 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion:“Awareness is a precursor to adjustment.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Awareness aids leaders in recognizing when they approach burnout.Well-trained leaders naturally navigate crises using second nature skills.Developing awareness prompts leaders to stop, assess shifts, and adjust effectively.Noticing emotions or bodily sensations signals leaders to pause and reflect.Naming issues in a room empowers leaders to identify and implement adjustments.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In his newest book, Chuck DeGroat offers a deeply personal account of his journey of being fired from a ministry position and the stress surrounding that experience that ultimately led to a life-changing health crisis. But it was that crisis that showed him the much deeper inner healing he needed.In this episode, Chuck DeGroat discusses not only his experience of deep inner healing, but also the need for inner healing for all of us who are ministry leaders.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Chuck DeGroat highlights his experience with the autonomic nervous system and its role in managing past trauma, indicating how unresolved trauma can manifest in physical and emotional symptoms.Engaging with our bodies helps reveal unaddressed shame and grief, which many individuals, including pastors, tend to bury.Chuck DeGroat shares his story of being fired from a church, leading him to recognize the necessity of inner reflection and healing for effective ministry leadership.Neglecting emotional health often leads to physical symptoms, illustrating the body's way of signaling unresolved emotional turmoil.Chuck DeGroat describes his journey from placing blame externally to focusing on internal work, which allows for more authentic healing.Constant activation of the sympathetic nervous system can have detrimental effects on one's health, indicating the importance of addressing stress and trauma.Chuck DeGroat encourages pastors and leaders to engage in regular practices that foster a calm and centered emotional state, aiding in spiritual insight and leadership.Successful healing involves consistently attending to emotional and physical cues from our bodies, signaling deeper underlying issues.Chuck DeGroat explains practices that help individuals transition from a survival mindset to a state of calm connection, enhancing overall well-being.Regular and intentional understanding of our body's signals is crucial for maintaining emotional health and preventing future burnout.Addiction often serves as an attempted solution to address deeper inner wounds, which requires a more nuanced understanding in the context of spiritual counseling.Chuck DeGroat discusses the value of acknowledging and understanding one's inner child to achieve authenticity and awareness in spiritual leadership.Differentiating between various parts of oneself allows for a clearer understanding of internal struggles and promotes healthier decisions.Effective spiritual and emotional growth requires addressing core issues beyond behavior, thereby promoting sustainable change and authentic leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Chuck DeGroatWestern Theological SeminaryBooks mentioned:Healing What's Within, by Chuck DeGroatWhen Narcissism Comes to Church, by Chuck DeGroatRelated episodes:82. Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins254. Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion, with Jonathan HooverClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Some might believe that brokenness leads only to suffering, but what if our pain could be transformed into something beautiful? In this episode of The Beauty in Brokenness, I explore how aligning with God shifts our experience of trials, reducing suffering and bringing healing, purpose, and peace. When we surrender our wounds to God, He doesn't let them go to waste. Instead, He uses them to refine us, draw us closer to Him, and reveal His glory in our lives. Through personal stories, biblical wisdom, and practical encouragement, I'll discuss how trusting in God allows us to experience restoration rather than despair. Key Scriptures for This Episode: ✨ Romans 8:28 – God works all things for good when we trust Him. ✨ Psalm 147:3 – He heals the brokenhearted. ✨ Isaiah 26:3 – Perfect peace comes through surrender. ✨ 2 Corinthians 12:9 – His strength is made perfect in our weakness. ✨ Psalm 30:5 – Joy comes after sorrow. If you've ever felt trapped in your pain or wondered if there's purpose in your brokenness, this episode is for you. Tune in and discover how God transforms suffering into something sacred when we surrender it to Him. If you want to learn more about the membership go here: https://danacanneto.com/luminary-woman-membership/ If you are looking for ways to share your gifts and how to monetize them as well as learn how to create multiple streams of income to serve and support the Kingdom, go here: https://www.theluminarylifestyle.com/ Few books I am currently reading: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero - https://amzn.to/3Rlzlh8 Soul Care - 7 Transformational Principles for a Healthy Soul - https://amzn.to/4l22eN1 If you are interested in sharing your story on my podcast or have questions or just want to get support, you can email me at dana@danacanneto.com All other ways to find me here: https://linktr.ee/danacanneto Be sure to subscribe, share and like this video to help more people to find their way here!
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Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!True ministry leadership isn't about power; it's about love in action. It's about stepping into the self-giving, co-suffering way of Jesus, even when it feels counterintuitive. This kind of leadership doesn't seek control but embraces humility, sacrifice, and deep connection with those we serve.In this episode, Marc Schelske, pastor of Bridge City Community Church and author of Walking Otherward, unpacks how embracing this kind of love reshapes our leadership, strengthens our churches, and helps us navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and wisdom.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Marc Schelske introduces the concept of other-centered, co-suffering love as a key aspect of following Jesus.The phrase "other-centered, co-suffering love" encompasses love that is conscious of others and willing to bear their burdens.Marc Schelske emphasizes the significance of Philippians 2 and Jesus' journey to Jerusalem as examples of this love.Jesus' journey to Jerusalem symbolizes a path that is not self-centered but oriented towards others.Self-centered, ego-defending ambition contrasts sharply with the way Jesus modeled leadership.Marc Schelske reflects on his own leadership transition, focusing on how he learned to disconnect identity from numerical success.Leadership driven by other-centered, co-suffering love requires holding space for others to process change at their own pace.Marc Schelske explains the importance of allowing time in decision-making processes to foster consensual and loving leadership.The fear of death and discomfort often drives the desire for control and power within leadership.Marc Schelske discusses creating communities where multiple perspectives can coexist without division.Churches must embrace a posture of vulnerability and humility in their leadership practices.Marc Schelske highlights that love acts by consent, meaning decisions should include space for honest dialogue and dissent.Co-suffering love challenges traditional notions of leadership by prioritizing presence over power.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Marc Schelske:Website - https://marcalanschelske.com/Bridge City Community ChurchBooks mentioned:Walking Otherward, by Marc SchelskeFalling Upward, by Richard RohrRelated episodes:206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimmage, with Jon Huckins236. Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church, with David Quel240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli ChiClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Burnout. An all too familiar experience for most of us. It's more than just feeling tired or overworked. It's that crushing sense of futility when your passion for ministry runs out, and it leaves you wondering if you can even continue the work you were once so excited about.Jonathan Hoover, the author of Stress Fracture, Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout, shares valuable insights from his experience and research, including practical strategies for managing stress, the importance of self-care, and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in leadership. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jonathan Hoover shares the significant stress his father faced while pastoring their church.Jonathan Hoover explains how his father experienced severe emotional and physical symptoms of burnout.Markus Watson asks about the role of spirituality in addressing burnout.Jonathan Hoover highlights how the biblical story of Elijah offers insights into addressing burnout through rest and care.The world tempts people to believe they are infinite, leading to stress and burnout.Jonathan Hoover talks about 'super rats' and the dangers of endless adaptation to stress.Creating margin in life by setting limits can help prevent burnout.Monitoring multiple aspects of life, such as physical and emotional health, can help manage burnout.Jonathan Hoover introduces the concept of emotional exhaustion and how it impacts emotional regulation.Emotional intelligence decreases as emotional exhaustion increases.Burnout leads to a loss of passion and a fatalistic outlook on success.Minimizing distractions and increasing self-awareness are crucial in preventing burnout.To prevent burnout, people need to realize their own limits and adjust their workloads.Jonathan Hoover explains that emotional awareness is necessary for making lifestyle adjustments.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jonathan Hoover:Website – drjonathanhoover.comChurch website - Newspring.orgBooks mentioned:Stress Fracture, by Jonathan HooverLeadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz and Marty LinskyRelated episodes:136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall175. From Burnout to Resilience, with Jason Young179. The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Found a lost episode on my computer and it was so good I had to upload it even though it's six months old! The fall and winter have been incredibly busy for L & P (separately, not together), but we still love our listeners! In this, episode, we began the second of two series(es?) that we hooooope to continue soon! The last episode was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality part 1, and this one is "The LIST" part one. What list? Listen to find out!
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the essential question: "What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation?" They discuss the importance of leaders acknowledging their own needs and the dangers of seeking fulfillment from their congregations instead of God. Learn how aligning personal needs with God's guidance can help leaders bring true abundance to their communities.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alan Fadling in Ep 238, Lead with Less Anxiety:"What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation in hopes they'll meet me there rather than learning to take the thirsts of my soul to God so that God could meet me in those places? And then I could bring abundance to the community of people entrusted to me.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders must acknowledge their needs to avoid seeking affirmation from their congregations improperly.Effective leaders should bring their soul's needs to God rather than their congregations.Leaders face the temptation of people-pleasing, which can derail their adherence to God's mission.Being transparent about personal needs helps leaders avoid subconscious behaviors that could hinder mission-focused leadership.Fulfilling personal needs through appropriate relationships prevents dependence on congregational approval.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Join us on as we embark on a journey of transition and wisdom with our special guest, Tim Haring, founding pastor of Chestnut Ridge Church. With nearly 40 years of leadership and service, Tim recently shifted into retirement, turning over leadership of the organization to his successor. From Northern Lights to Spiritual Insights - Wisdom for Navigating Life's Transitions Whether you're facing a new leadership role, considering a career change, or moving to a new city, Tim Haring's reflections provide guidance and encouragement for personal growth and embracing change. Listening to this authentic, soulful and candid conversation, you will come away with— Guidance for navigating life's major changes, twists and turns Deeper understanding of your emotional and spiritual health Insights on knowing when it's the right time to retire Hope and encouragement for what's next As Tim shares his experiences from recent travels to Norway and Hondura, you will hear how witnessing the Northern Lights and speaking at a conference for church leaders in Honduras have enriched his life. Our conversation delves into the transformative concept of emotionally healthy spirituality. This newfound understanding of emotions and empathy in ministry opens doors for Tim to support pastors through coaching and mentoring. Reflecting on his journey, Tim emphasizes the importance of seeking help during major life changes and his ongoing passion for growth, even in retirement. His story inspires us to continually learn and adapt, offering hope and encouragement for anyone navigating transitions. More About Special Guest Tim Haring Tim Haring is the Founding Pastor of Chestnut Ridge Church in Morgantown, West Virginia. He recently retired from his position as Senior Pastor, although he will continue to work part-time at the church. In nearly 40 years of pastoral experience, Tim has been instrumental in helping to plant four additional churches in West Virginia. Together, those form the Ridge Network of Churches. Tim has a pastoral studies degree with a minor in Greek language from Moody Bible Institute and a business degree from West Virginia University. Tim and his wife, Karen, have been married for 36 years. They have five children, one granddaughter and another grandchild on the way. Settle in for a whirlwind wisdom journey from Norway to Honduras and from Columbus to Morgantown, where Tim joins us today. Resources Tim Haring's book “When God Walked Alone” on Amazon Connect with Tim on LinkedIn Grab a copy of the book “Emotionally Healthy Spirituality” from our BookShop Connect with Tim on Facebook Check out the church Tim founded - Chestnut Ridge Church Credits Editor + Technical Advisor Bob Hotchkiss Brand + Strategy Advisor Andy Malinoski PR + Partnerships Advisor Rachel Bell Marketing, Social Media and Graphic Design Chloe Lineberg Stay Connected with Us on Social YouTube @themainthingpod Twitter @themainthingpod Instagram @themainthingpod Facebook @TheMainThingPod LinkedIn Help Support and Sustain This Podcast Become a subscriber. Share the podcast with one or two friends. Follow us on social media @TheMainThingPod Buy some Main Thing Merch from our Merchandise Store. Buy a book from our curated wisdom collection on bookshop.org. Become a patron and support us on Patreon with funding. Episode Chapters [0:03:35] - Tim's recent travels to Norway and Honduras [0:05:40] - How Tim and Skip are connected [0:07:03] - Tim's transition from founder / leader of Chestnut Ridge to retirement [0:10:06] - Coping with feelings and emotions related to this major change [0:12:08] - Tim reveals his Main Thing [0:13:50] - Emotionally healthy spirituality; Tim candidly shares a weakness [0:18:25] - Discussion of Tim's work as an author [0:20:03] - Tim leaves us with words of encouragement
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode tackles the topic of being "othered" by those in church leadership, an important conversation for anyone in ministry leadership who wants to understand how to create an environment of embrace, of love, of belonging—and of being a healthy team.Jenai Auman, the author of Othered, discusses her personal experiences of being othered by church leaders, the impact it had on her, and how leaders can cultivate communities marked by shalom and hesed.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jenai Auman shares her struggles with toxic issues and resistance at a church where she was on staff.Advocacy for personal boundaries led to Jenai being labeled as the problem and asked to leave the church.Individuals often remain in unhealthy environments due to a shallow understanding of love and belonging, influenced by past trauma.Jenai Auman identifies with domestic violence survivors in her determination to fix the system from within.Through her painful experience, Jenai Auman gained transformative wisdom and spiritual growth.Emphasizing the importance of healing, Jenai Auman aims to avoid bitterness and repeating the harm done to her.The hesed of God demonstrates loving kindness and compassion, aiming for wholeness in a fractured world.The zero-sum game misconception causes competition for comfort and peace, but God's shalom advocates for abundance.By adopting an open-handed posture towards others, we mirror God's nature, fostering inclusivity and belonging.Jenai Auman advises those feeling othered to recognize their inherent belovedness without seeking external validation.Church leaders should focus on self-reflection and compassion, avoiding defensive othering.Jenai Auman discusses the concept of shalom as a state of peace involving love, wisdom, and understanding personal stories.Naming experiences of othering is crucial for healing, enabling reconciliation and peace.Jenai Auman reflects on how her experiences with othering have shaped her understanding of mutuality and divine love.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jenai Auman:WebsiteSubstackEmailBooks mentioned:Othered, by Jenai AumanRelated episodes:82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer163. You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve CarterClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
SCRIPTURE PASSAGESMark 10:17-22 Reflection Questions Subscribe!YouTubeSpotifyApple Podcasts
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In this special Christmas Eve episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson takes a moment to share some heartfelt encouragement for those feeling the weight of ministry's demands. Reflecting on both personal and professional burdens, Markus reminds us of the importance of leaning on Jesus to find true rest and relief. By exploring the story of the shepherds, magi, and even King Herod, Markus illustrates how Jesus invites each of us to let go of our exhaustion and allow Him to help carry our burdens.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Pastors face a lot of pressure in preparing sermons, providing pastoral care, leading meetings, and handling administrative duties.The constant demand for excellence in ministry, even during times of societal change, amplifies stress and feelings of responsibility.Markus Watson emphasizes the added strain of personal burdens, describing his own experience caring for aging parents.Life's cumulative burdens, both personal and professional, contribute to a persistent feeling of exhaustion.Despite exhaustion, love and care for congregants and loved ones remain a priority.The host draws an analogy between the exhaustion of ministry workers and the biblical figures present at Jesus' birth.Shepherds, magi, and the people of Israel felt weary from their own burdens.Markus Watson points out that King Herod also experienced weariness, though he rejected the invitation of Jesus' birth.Jesus' words in Matthew 11 are an invitation for rest and relief.Markus Watson concludes by encouraging listeners to allow Jesus to help carry their personal and ministry burdens, reassuring them that they are not alone.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Related episodes:117. Leading with Courage and Integrity in Times of Discontinuous Change206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].
In this episode of MercyTalk, we continue diving into the “Top Ten Symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality” from Pete Scazzero's book, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. One of the symptoms he mentions is “spiritualizing away conflict.” We're especially excited to have Executive and Life Coach Jeff Helton with us to have this important conversation about what it [...]
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!We talk a lot about leading through uncertainty on this podcast. But in this episode, the emphasis will be on navigating uncertainty in our own lives. In this conversation, Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, co-authors of Life in Flux, discuss the importance of "uncommon postures" when navigating the fog in life, building personal adaptive capacity, and the need to pause and listen in the midst of uncertainty.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Lisa Slayton challenges default behaviors and encourages developing uncommon postures to better support oneself.Michaela O'Donnell emphasizes the need to embrace change rather than avoid it, recognizing that old methods won't work for future challenges.Slayton identifies personal awakening catalysts as recognizing potential possibilities or facing pain and disruptions.Adaptive work involves recognizing that past methods won't suffice for future challenges, according to Michaela O'Donnell.The metaphor of a ship in the fog illustrates the need for intentional stillness in uncertain times.Slayton describes how cutting the engine in a fog-bound boat is a counterintuitive but necessary action to regain direction.Markus Watson reflects on personal experiences with uncertainty, realizing challenges can be embraced even when they are "unfigureoutable."Slayton shares an experience with a church team and stresses the importance of exploration and adaptation.Navigating ambiguity involves recognizing multiple paths forward, not just one clear solution, notes Michaela O'Donnell.Leadership should shift from problem-solving to curiosity, embracing uncertainty and adaptive learning.Markus Watson discusses the clarity of identity in understanding personal strengths and aligning roles accordingly.The Enneagram aids in understanding personal and leadership styles amidst change, recognizing strengths and limits.Lisa Slayton emphasizes the challenges pastors face due to excessive expectations and the need for managing these effectively.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteDe Pree Center for LeadershipTamim PartnersLifeinFlux.coFlourish San DiegoBooks mentioned:Life in Flux, by Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa SlaytonRelated Episodes:Episode 114: Meaningful Work, with Michaela O'DonnellEpisode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa SlaytonDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson chats with Tod Bolsinger about a profound quote from Gayle Beebe, President of Westmont College. They explore the significance of staying emotionally present with your organization, its people, and its mission, especially during crises. The conversation highlights the balance between gaining perspective ('balcony' view) and staying connected (‘dance floor' engagement), essential for fostering trust and effective leadership. Perfect for those navigating the complexities of ministry leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Gayle Beebe in Ep 220, Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis:"You have to stay emotionally present to the organization, to the people in the organization, to the mission of the organization so that you can make adjustments that actually allow you to prevail."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders must stay emotionally present to effectively lead organizations through crises.Gayle Beebe emphasizes the importance of connecting with the mission and people of the organization.Leaders need to balance the perspectives of the balcony (overall strategy) and the dance floor (emotional connection).Building trust through emotional attunement accelerates change within an organization.Leaders must acknowledge and manage their own emotions to make mission-focused decisions.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
In this episode of MercyTalk, we continue our conversation on emotional health and how it impacts our spiritual maturity. We specifically dive into three of the “Top Ten Symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality” from pastor and author Pete Scazzero's book, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. Also, in this episode… The importance of engaging, not ignoring, our anger, [...]
In this episode of MercyTalk, we begin a conversation on the topic of emotional health and how it impacts our spiritual maturity. We introduce some of the big ideas from pastor and author Pete Scazzero's book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality which poses the idea that “it's impossible to be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature.” Also, [...]
Host Curtis Chang sits down with Pastor Caleb Campbell, author of the new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb shares his powerful journey from disenfranchised young churchgoer to neo-nazi, and ultimately, his transformation into an evangelical pastor with a desire to reach adherents of Christian Nationalism. Together, Curtis and Caleb explore how our friends and neighbors become entangled in the worship of nationalism and political power and offer practical steps for inviting these individuals into meaningful relationships that foster hope and change. Bring The After Party course to your church or small group! Listen to Songs For the After Party, get sheet music, lyrics, and prayers for your church Donate to Redeeming Babel HERE Order Caleb E. Campbell's book: Disarming Leviathan Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE: Rich Mullins' Song: Sometimes By Step Galatians 6:1-2 NIV Tim Keller: Preaching to the Collective Heart (blog post) Pete Scazzaro's book: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality
Join Erin, Jamie, and Evan as we unpack actual memes sent by our listeners and provide responses that could be used in an online interaction. You'll hear a full spectrum of tips ranging from fruit of the Spirit to spice of the Spirit about things like emotional health, Jedi Jesus, and panic over parenting children in 2024. What does Dwight Schrute have to say about progressive Christianity, and who puts the “stud” in Bible study? You'll have to listen to find out! MENTIONS I need a visual: Find the memes on our Instagram | Here's another place you can find them Announcements? Don't miss a thing! Star Wars Jesus: Deep-Dive Ewan McGregor Keelee's emotional health journey: Check out Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero What's the latest over on Patreon? Watch our Fellowship Hall Replay with Aimee Byrd BONUS CONTENTWe have tons of additional content, including monthly Fellowship Hall gatherings, Office Hours episodes, and so much more! You can access them now with a 7-day free trial. You'll be able to listen to over 250 more episodes! Tuition is just $5 a month after the trial period. Become a Seminarian here!THE POPCASTCheck out our other podcast, The Popcast with Knox and Jamie. It's a weekly show about pop culture where we educate on the things that entertain but don't matter. Here is our suggested Popcast starter playlist.Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Dish from Faith AdjacentShop our Amazon Link: amazon.com/shop/faithadjacentFollow Faith Adjacent on Socials: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Join Erin, Jamie, and Evan as we unpack actual memes sent by our listeners and provide responses that could be used in an online interaction. You'll hear a full spectrum of tips ranging from fruit of the Spirit to spice of the Spirit about things like emotional health, Jedi Jesus, and panic over parenting children in 2024. What does Dwight Schrute have to say about progressive Christianity, and who puts the “stud” in Bible study? You'll have to listen to find out! MENTIONS I need a visual: Find the memes on our Instagram | Here's another place you can find them Announcements? Don't miss a thing! Star Wars Jesus: Deep-Dive Ewan McGregor Keelee's emotional health journey: Check out Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero What's the latest over on Patreon? Watch our Fellowship Hall Replay with Aimee Byrd BONUS CONTENT We have tons of additional content, including monthly Fellowship Hall gatherings, Office Hours episodes, and so much more! You can access them now with a 7-day free trial. You'll be able to listen to over 250 more episodes! Tuition is just $5 a month after the trial period. Become a Seminarian here! THE POPCAST Check out our other podcast, The Popcast with Knox and Jamie. It's a weekly show about pop culture where we educate on the things that entertain but don't matter. Here is our suggested Popcast starter playlist. Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Dish from Faith Adjacent Shop our Amazon Link: amazon.com/shop/faithadjacent Follow Faith Adjacent on Socials: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jennie is joined by Dr. Pete Scazzaro, author of Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. They dive into how emotional health and spiritual maturity cannot be separated and how to grow in those areas together. Get 15% off your Boll and Branch order when you use code MadeForThis at BollandBranch.com MAIN POINTS: How to be emotionally healthy Sit before the Lord, journal, and ask: what am I angry about, what am I sad about, what am I afraid or anxious about, what am I glad about? Emotions aren't wrong, they are necessary and unless you grow in them you are going to be spiritually stunted Discerning God's plan in your life Text BOOKCLUB to 214-225-6267 to Download the Book Club Guide and text us any questions you have about emotions! Go to DrinkAG1.com/MadeForThis to get a free 1 year supply of Vitamin D3 K2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. HELPFUL LINKS: Join the newsletter | Sign up for texts from Jennie and team Get your copy of Untangle Your Emotions here Dr. Pete Scazzaro's books CONNECT ON SOCIALS: Instagram | YouTube | Facebook | TikTok | Pinterest
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