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Flute 360 | Episode 330: "This Is Real Life – Two Flutists, One Faith, and a Journey Through It All with Dr. Kristin Caliendo" This episode isn't just a conversation—it's a moment of truth, healing, and deep connection. Dr. Heidi Kay Begay and Dr. Kristin Caliendo come together for a raw and heartfelt discussion on what it means to live a fully integrated life as a flutist, believer, caregiver, mother, teacher, and friend. It's for the listener who feels pulled in too many directions and is craving clarity, energy, peace, and purpose. If you've been questioning how to juggle it all—your health, studio, family, calling, and faith—this conversation meets you right where you are. It's a reminder that your body is sacred, your energy is a resource, and your identity is not defined by a title—but by who God says you are. Main Points: How faith, food, and friendship sustain us through life's hardest seasons. The connection between energy and your environment: food, people, habits. Caregiving, grief, and the supernatural peace that only God can give. What it really means to steward your body as a temple. Letting go of performance perfectionism and embracing presence in your playing. Redefining success beyond the degree, job title, or performance. Using your music and teaching as a vehicle for ministry and healing. The daily decision to live intentionally—one minute, one rehearsal, one lesson at a time. Resources Mentioned: Iowa State Daily on grapes vs. red wine for cancer prevention: grapes (especially red/purple varieties) contain higher levels of resveratrol without the risks associated with alcohol – click here to read article! Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero Get Out of Your Head by Jennie Allen Sacred Rest by Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith Atomic Habits by James Clear Guest's Information: Dr. Kristin Caliendo is a flutist, educator, mother, and caregiver with a heart for holistic living and Christ-centered purpose. She brings decades of wisdom not just as a performer and teacher, but as a woman deeply attuned to what it means to live aligned with her faith. Through every season—especially the hard ones—she models what grace, grit, and God-led living can truly look like. Connect with Kristin via email at kristinflute@yahoo.com. Follow Heidi! Follow Flute 360 via TikTok! Follow Flute 360 via Instagram! Follow Flute 360 via Twitter! Follow Flute 360 via LinkedIn! Follow Flute 360 via Facebook! Subscribe to the Flute 360's YouTube Channel! Join the Flute 360 Newsletter! Join the Flute 360 Family's Facebook Private Group! Join the Flute 360's Accelerator Program Here! TIER 1 for $37 TIER 2 for $67 TIER 3 for $97
I enjoyed this book. I have mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast and probably encouraged you to read it. Join me this week for a book review of sorts. Peter Scazzero writes about ten symptoms of emotionally unhealthy spirituality. Using biblical principles, he works to focus individuals into a deeper, more meaningful relationship with God and others. It's worth the read. Emotionally Healthy Spirituality: It's Impossible to Be Spiritually Mature, While Remaining Emotionally Immature
Phil Haines continues our series on Spiritual Formation looking at Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode explores the critical role awareness plays in avoiding burnout and fostering healthy leadership practices. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss personal anecdotes and practical strategies to cultivate awareness, so we can better navigate the challenges that come our way. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to lead a more intentional life, this conversation is packed with insights to help you break free from autopilot mode and make mindful adjustments for a more effective and fulfilling leadership journey.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jonathan Hoover in Ep. 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion:“Awareness is a precursor to adjustment.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Awareness aids leaders in recognizing when they approach burnout.Well-trained leaders naturally navigate crises using second nature skills.Developing awareness prompts leaders to stop, assess shifts, and adjust effectively.Noticing emotions or bodily sensations signals leaders to pause and reflect.Naming issues in a room empowers leaders to identify and implement adjustments.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In his newest book, Chuck DeGroat offers a deeply personal account of his journey of being fired from a ministry position and the stress surrounding that experience that ultimately led to a life-changing health crisis. But it was that crisis that showed him the much deeper inner healing he needed.In this episode, Chuck DeGroat discusses not only his experience of deep inner healing, but also the need for inner healing for all of us who are ministry leaders.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Chuck DeGroat highlights his experience with the autonomic nervous system and its role in managing past trauma, indicating how unresolved trauma can manifest in physical and emotional symptoms.Engaging with our bodies helps reveal unaddressed shame and grief, which many individuals, including pastors, tend to bury.Chuck DeGroat shares his story of being fired from a church, leading him to recognize the necessity of inner reflection and healing for effective ministry leadership.Neglecting emotional health often leads to physical symptoms, illustrating the body's way of signaling unresolved emotional turmoil.Chuck DeGroat describes his journey from placing blame externally to focusing on internal work, which allows for more authentic healing.Constant activation of the sympathetic nervous system can have detrimental effects on one's health, indicating the importance of addressing stress and trauma.Chuck DeGroat encourages pastors and leaders to engage in regular practices that foster a calm and centered emotional state, aiding in spiritual insight and leadership.Successful healing involves consistently attending to emotional and physical cues from our bodies, signaling deeper underlying issues.Chuck DeGroat explains practices that help individuals transition from a survival mindset to a state of calm connection, enhancing overall well-being.Regular and intentional understanding of our body's signals is crucial for maintaining emotional health and preventing future burnout.Addiction often serves as an attempted solution to address deeper inner wounds, which requires a more nuanced understanding in the context of spiritual counseling.Chuck DeGroat discusses the value of acknowledging and understanding one's inner child to achieve authenticity and awareness in spiritual leadership.Differentiating between various parts of oneself allows for a clearer understanding of internal struggles and promotes healthier decisions.Effective spiritual and emotional growth requires addressing core issues beyond behavior, thereby promoting sustainable change and authentic leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Chuck DeGroatWestern Theological SeminaryBooks mentioned:Healing What's Within, by Chuck DeGroatWhen Narcissism Comes to Church, by Chuck DeGroatRelated episodes:82. Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins254. Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion, with Jonathan HooverClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Some might believe that brokenness leads only to suffering, but what if our pain could be transformed into something beautiful? In this episode of The Beauty in Brokenness, I explore how aligning with God shifts our experience of trials, reducing suffering and bringing healing, purpose, and peace. When we surrender our wounds to God, He doesn't let them go to waste. Instead, He uses them to refine us, draw us closer to Him, and reveal His glory in our lives. Through personal stories, biblical wisdom, and practical encouragement, I'll discuss how trusting in God allows us to experience restoration rather than despair. Key Scriptures for This Episode: ✨ Romans 8:28 – God works all things for good when we trust Him. ✨ Psalm 147:3 – He heals the brokenhearted. ✨ Isaiah 26:3 – Perfect peace comes through surrender. ✨ 2 Corinthians 12:9 – His strength is made perfect in our weakness. ✨ Psalm 30:5 – Joy comes after sorrow. If you've ever felt trapped in your pain or wondered if there's purpose in your brokenness, this episode is for you. Tune in and discover how God transforms suffering into something sacred when we surrender it to Him. If you want to learn more about the membership go here: https://danacanneto.com/luminary-woman-membership/ If you are looking for ways to share your gifts and how to monetize them as well as learn how to create multiple streams of income to serve and support the Kingdom, go here: https://www.theluminarylifestyle.com/ Few books I am currently reading: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero - https://amzn.to/3Rlzlh8 Soul Care - 7 Transformational Principles for a Healthy Soul - https://amzn.to/4l22eN1 If you are interested in sharing your story on my podcast or have questions or just want to get support, you can email me at dana@danacanneto.com All other ways to find me here: https://linktr.ee/danacanneto Be sure to subscribe, share and like this video to help more people to find their way here!
ようこそ！みなさんが今どこから見ているのか教えてください！PAZキッズライングループに参加したい場合は、こちらのリンクをご覧ください。https://lin.ee/B5lAYxJ 10分の1献金もしくは通常献金をしたい方は、こちらから: https://tithe.ly/give?c=196796今日、パズチャーチアプリをダウンロードしよう！メッセージノート、礼拝のメッセージ、ワーシップビデオ、パズキッズビデオなど、いろいろなコンテンツがあります！是非チェックしてみてください！ https://tithely.app.link/paz-church-japanese私たちに興味がある方はinfo@pazchurch.com までご連絡ください！コメントや個人的な質問、PAZ Church Lineのグループへの参加は、こちらからお願いします： https://lin.ee/ngolxL3Welcome! We'd love for you to comment where you're watching from!If you would like to join the PAZ Kids Line Group please do so here: https://lin.ee/B5lAYxJ If you want to give your tithe or offering, go here: https://tithe.ly/give?c=196796Download our Paz Church app today to check out the message notes, today's service, get access to worship videos, Paz Kids videos, and more! https://tithely.app.link/paz-churchIf you would like to connect with us about anything please send us an email to info@pazchurch.com!To comment or ask a question privately or join the PAZ Church Line group, please do that here: https://lin.ee/ngolxL3
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!True ministry leadership isn't about power; it's about love in action. It's about stepping into the self-giving, co-suffering way of Jesus, even when it feels counterintuitive. This kind of leadership doesn't seek control but embraces humility, sacrifice, and deep connection with those we serve.In this episode, Marc Schelske, pastor of Bridge City Community Church and author of Walking Otherward, unpacks how embracing this kind of love reshapes our leadership, strengthens our churches, and helps us navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and wisdom.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Marc Schelske introduces the concept of other-centered, co-suffering love as a key aspect of following Jesus.The phrase "other-centered, co-suffering love" encompasses love that is conscious of others and willing to bear their burdens.Marc Schelske emphasizes the significance of Philippians 2 and Jesus' journey to Jerusalem as examples of this love.Jesus' journey to Jerusalem symbolizes a path that is not self-centered but oriented towards others.Self-centered, ego-defending ambition contrasts sharply with the way Jesus modeled leadership.Marc Schelske reflects on his own leadership transition, focusing on how he learned to disconnect identity from numerical success.Leadership driven by other-centered, co-suffering love requires holding space for others to process change at their own pace.Marc Schelske explains the importance of allowing time in decision-making processes to foster consensual and loving leadership.The fear of death and discomfort often drives the desire for control and power within leadership.Marc Schelske discusses creating communities where multiple perspectives can coexist without division.Churches must embrace a posture of vulnerability and humility in their leadership practices.Marc Schelske highlights that love acts by consent, meaning decisions should include space for honest dialogue and dissent.Co-suffering love challenges traditional notions of leadership by prioritizing presence over power.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Marc Schelske:Website - https://marcalanschelske.com/Bridge City Community ChurchBooks mentioned:Walking Otherward, by Marc SchelskeFalling Upward, by Richard RohrRelated episodes:206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimmage, with Jon Huckins236. Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church, with David Quel240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli ChiClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Burnout. An all too familiar experience for most of us. It's more than just feeling tired or overworked. It's that crushing sense of futility when your passion for ministry runs out, and it leaves you wondering if you can even continue the work you were once so excited about.Jonathan Hoover, the author of Stress Fracture, Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout, shares valuable insights from his experience and research, including practical strategies for managing stress, the importance of self-care, and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in leadership. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jonathan Hoover shares the significant stress his father faced while pastoring their church.Jonathan Hoover explains how his father experienced severe emotional and physical symptoms of burnout.Markus Watson asks about the role of spirituality in addressing burnout.Jonathan Hoover highlights how the biblical story of Elijah offers insights into addressing burnout through rest and care.The world tempts people to believe they are infinite, leading to stress and burnout.Jonathan Hoover talks about 'super rats' and the dangers of endless adaptation to stress.Creating margin in life by setting limits can help prevent burnout.Monitoring multiple aspects of life, such as physical and emotional health, can help manage burnout.Jonathan Hoover introduces the concept of emotional exhaustion and how it impacts emotional regulation.Emotional intelligence decreases as emotional exhaustion increases.Burnout leads to a loss of passion and a fatalistic outlook on success.Minimizing distractions and increasing self-awareness are crucial in preventing burnout.To prevent burnout, people need to realize their own limits and adjust their workloads.Jonathan Hoover explains that emotional awareness is necessary for making lifestyle adjustments.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jonathan Hoover:Website – drjonathanhoover.comChurch website - Newspring.orgBooks mentioned:Stress Fracture, by Jonathan HooverLeadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz and Marty LinskyRelated episodes:136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall175. From Burnout to Resilience, with Jason Young179. The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Found a lost episode on my computer and it was so good I had to upload it even though it's six months old! The fall and winter have been incredibly busy for L & P (separately, not together), but we still love our listeners! In this, episode, we began the second of two series(es?) that we hooooope to continue soon! The last episode was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality part 1, and this one is "The LIST" part one. What list? Listen to find out!
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the essential question: "What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation?" They discuss the importance of leaders acknowledging their own needs and the dangers of seeking fulfillment from their congregations instead of God. Learn how aligning personal needs with God's guidance can help leaders bring true abundance to their communities.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alan Fadling in Ep 238, Lead with Less Anxiety:"What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation in hopes they'll meet me there rather than learning to take the thirsts of my soul to God so that God could meet me in those places? And then I could bring abundance to the community of people entrusted to me.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders must acknowledge their needs to avoid seeking affirmation from their congregations improperly.Effective leaders should bring their soul's needs to God rather than their congregations.Leaders face the temptation of people-pleasing, which can derail their adherence to God's mission.Being transparent about personal needs helps leaders avoid subconscious behaviors that could hinder mission-focused leadership.Fulfilling personal needs through appropriate relationships prevents dependence on congregational approval.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
Join us on as we embark on a journey of transition and wisdom with our special guest, Tim Haring, founding pastor of Chestnut Ridge Church. With nearly 40 years of leadership and service, Tim recently shifted into retirement, turning over leadership of the organization to his successor. From Northern Lights to Spiritual Insights - Wisdom for Navigating Life's Transitions Whether you're facing a new leadership role, considering a career change, or moving to a new city, Tim Haring's reflections provide guidance and encouragement for personal growth and embracing change. Listening to this authentic, soulful and candid conversation, you will come away with— Guidance for navigating life's major changes, twists and turns Deeper understanding of your emotional and spiritual health Insights on knowing when it's the right time to retire Hope and encouragement for what's next As Tim shares his experiences from recent travels to Norway and Hondura, you will hear how witnessing the Northern Lights and speaking at a conference for church leaders in Honduras have enriched his life. Our conversation delves into the transformative concept of emotionally healthy spirituality. This newfound understanding of emotions and empathy in ministry opens doors for Tim to support pastors through coaching and mentoring. Reflecting on his journey, Tim emphasizes the importance of seeking help during major life changes and his ongoing passion for growth, even in retirement. His story inspires us to continually learn and adapt, offering hope and encouragement for anyone navigating transitions. More About Special Guest Tim Haring Tim Haring is the Founding Pastor of Chestnut Ridge Church in Morgantown, West Virginia. He recently retired from his position as Senior Pastor, although he will continue to work part-time at the church. In nearly 40 years of pastoral experience, Tim has been instrumental in helping to plant four additional churches in West Virginia. Together, those form the Ridge Network of Churches. Tim has a pastoral studies degree with a minor in Greek language from Moody Bible Institute and a business degree from West Virginia University. Tim and his wife, Karen, have been married for 36 years. They have five children, one granddaughter and another grandchild on the way. Settle in for a whirlwind wisdom journey from Norway to Honduras and from Columbus to Morgantown, where Tim joins us today. Resources Tim Haring's book “When God Walked Alone” on Amazon Connect with Tim on LinkedIn Grab a copy of the book “Emotionally Healthy Spirituality” from our BookShop Connect with Tim on Facebook Check out the church Tim founded - Chestnut Ridge Church Credits Editor + Technical Advisor Bob Hotchkiss Brand + Strategy Advisor Andy Malinoski PR + Partnerships Advisor Rachel Bell Marketing, Social Media and Graphic Design Chloe Lineberg Stay Connected with Us on Social YouTube @themainthingpod Twitter @themainthingpod Instagram @themainthingpod Facebook @TheMainThingPod LinkedIn Help Support and Sustain This Podcast Become a subscriber. Share the podcast with one or two friends. Follow us on social media @TheMainThingPod Buy some Main Thing Merch from our Merchandise Store. Buy a book from our curated wisdom collection on bookshop.org. Become a patron and support us on Patreon with funding. Episode Chapters [0:03:35] - Tim's recent travels to Norway and Honduras [0:05:40] - How Tim and Skip are connected [0:07:03] - Tim's transition from founder / leader of Chestnut Ridge to retirement [0:10:06] - Coping with feelings and emotions related to this major change [0:12:08] - Tim reveals his Main Thing [0:13:50] - Emotionally healthy spirituality; Tim candidly shares a weakness [0:18:25] - Discussion of Tim's work as an author [0:20:03] - Tim leaves us with words of encouragement
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode tackles the topic of being "othered" by those in church leadership, an important conversation for anyone in ministry leadership who wants to understand how to create an environment of embrace, of love, of belonging—and of being a healthy team.Jenai Auman, the author of Othered, discusses her personal experiences of being othered by church leaders, the impact it had on her, and how leaders can cultivate communities marked by shalom and hesed.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jenai Auman shares her struggles with toxic issues and resistance at a church where she was on staff.Advocacy for personal boundaries led to Jenai being labeled as the problem and asked to leave the church.Individuals often remain in unhealthy environments due to a shallow understanding of love and belonging, influenced by past trauma.Jenai Auman identifies with domestic violence survivors in her determination to fix the system from within.Through her painful experience, Jenai Auman gained transformative wisdom and spiritual growth.Emphasizing the importance of healing, Jenai Auman aims to avoid bitterness and repeating the harm done to her.The hesed of God demonstrates loving kindness and compassion, aiming for wholeness in a fractured world.The zero-sum game misconception causes competition for comfort and peace, but God's shalom advocates for abundance.By adopting an open-handed posture towards others, we mirror God's nature, fostering inclusivity and belonging.Jenai Auman advises those feeling othered to recognize their inherent belovedness without seeking external validation.Church leaders should focus on self-reflection and compassion, avoiding defensive othering.Jenai Auman discusses the concept of shalom as a state of peace involving love, wisdom, and understanding personal stories.Naming experiences of othering is crucial for healing, enabling reconciliation and peace.Jenai Auman reflects on how her experiences with othering have shaped her understanding of mutuality and divine love.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jenai Auman:WebsiteSubstackEmailBooks mentioned:Othered, by Jenai AumanRelated episodes:82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer163. You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve CarterClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.
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Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In this special Christmas Eve episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson takes a moment to share some heartfelt encouragement for those feeling the weight of ministry's demands. Reflecting on both personal and professional burdens, Markus reminds us of the importance of leaning on Jesus to find true rest and relief. By exploring the story of the shepherds, magi, and even King Herod, Markus illustrates how Jesus invites each of us to let go of our exhaustion and allow Him to help carry our burdens.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Pastors face a lot of pressure in preparing sermons, providing pastoral care, leading meetings, and handling administrative duties.The constant demand for excellence in ministry, even during times of societal change, amplifies stress and feelings of responsibility.Markus Watson emphasizes the added strain of personal burdens, describing his own experience caring for aging parents.Life's cumulative burdens, both personal and professional, contribute to a persistent feeling of exhaustion.Despite exhaustion, love and care for congregants and loved ones remain a priority.The host draws an analogy between the exhaustion of ministry workers and the biblical figures present at Jesus' birth.Shepherds, magi, and the people of Israel felt weary from their own burdens.Markus Watson points out that King Herod also experienced weariness, though he rejected the invitation of Jesus' birth.Jesus' words in Matthew 11 are an invitation for rest and relief.Markus Watson concludes by encouraging listeners to allow Jesus to help carry their personal and ministry burdens, reassuring them that they are not alone.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Related episodes:117. Leading with Courage and Integrity in Times of Discontinuous Change206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].
In this episode of MercyTalk, we continue diving into the “Top Ten Symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality” from Pete Scazzero's book, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. One of the symptoms he mentions is “spiritualizing away conflict.” We're especially excited to have Executive and Life Coach Jeff Helton with us to have this important conversation about what it [...]
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!We talk a lot about leading through uncertainty on this podcast. But in this episode, the emphasis will be on navigating uncertainty in our own lives. In this conversation, Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, co-authors of Life in Flux, discuss the importance of "uncommon postures" when navigating the fog in life, building personal adaptive capacity, and the need to pause and listen in the midst of uncertainty.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Lisa Slayton challenges default behaviors and encourages developing uncommon postures to better support oneself.Michaela O'Donnell emphasizes the need to embrace change rather than avoid it, recognizing that old methods won't work for future challenges.Slayton identifies personal awakening catalysts as recognizing potential possibilities or facing pain and disruptions.Adaptive work involves recognizing that past methods won't suffice for future challenges, according to Michaela O'Donnell.The metaphor of a ship in the fog illustrates the need for intentional stillness in uncertain times.Slayton describes how cutting the engine in a fog-bound boat is a counterintuitive but necessary action to regain direction.Markus Watson reflects on personal experiences with uncertainty, realizing challenges can be embraced even when they are "unfigureoutable."Slayton shares an experience with a church team and stresses the importance of exploration and adaptation.Navigating ambiguity involves recognizing multiple paths forward, not just one clear solution, notes Michaela O'Donnell.Leadership should shift from problem-solving to curiosity, embracing uncertainty and adaptive learning.Markus Watson discusses the clarity of identity in understanding personal strengths and aligning roles accordingly.The Enneagram aids in understanding personal and leadership styles amidst change, recognizing strengths and limits.Lisa Slayton emphasizes the challenges pastors face due to excessive expectations and the need for managing these effectively.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteDe Pree Center for LeadershipTamim PartnersLifeinFlux.coFlourish San DiegoBooks mentioned:Life in Flux, by Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa SlaytonRelated Episodes:Episode 114: Meaningful Work, with Michaela O'DonnellEpisode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa SlaytonDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson chats with Tod Bolsinger about a profound quote from Gayle Beebe, President of Westmont College. They explore the significance of staying emotionally present with your organization, its people, and its mission, especially during crises. The conversation highlights the balance between gaining perspective ('balcony' view) and staying connected (‘dance floor' engagement), essential for fostering trust and effective leadership. Perfect for those navigating the complexities of ministry leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Gayle Beebe in Ep 220, Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis:"You have to stay emotionally present to the organization, to the people in the organization, to the mission of the organization so that you can make adjustments that actually allow you to prevail."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders must stay emotionally present to effectively lead organizations through crises.Gayle Beebe emphasizes the importance of connecting with the mission and people of the organization.Leaders need to balance the perspectives of the balcony (overall strategy) and the dance floor (emotional connection).Building trust through emotional attunement accelerates change within an organization.Leaders must acknowledge and manage their own emotions to make mission-focused decisions.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
In this episode of MercyTalk, we continue our conversation on emotional health and how it impacts our spiritual maturity. We specifically dive into three of the “Top Ten Symptoms of Emotionally Unhealthy Spirituality” from pastor and author Pete Scazzero's book, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. Also, in this episode… The importance of engaging, not ignoring, our anger, [...]
In today's message, we reflect on our inner story, and our outer story. Only Jesus can align our outer story to our inner story.
In this episode of MercyTalk, we begin a conversation on the topic of emotional health and how it impacts our spiritual maturity. We introduce some of the big ideas from pastor and author Pete Scazzero's book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality which poses the idea that “it's impossible to be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature.” Also, [...]
Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Is it possible to lead a congregation without being consumed by anxiety and stress? How can we as ministry leaders manage the pressures and expectations we carry while maintaining a sense of peace and lightness?In this episode, Alan Fadling, author of A Non-Anxious Life, unpacks how ministry leaders can navigate anxiety by creating a supportive network of friends and mentors, understanding God's joyful nature, and how these realities can transform our personal life and pastoral leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Alan Fadling advises not bringing personal anxiety into a congregation but sharing it with friends, mentors, therapists, and spiritual directors. Alan Fadling highlights that his experience with managing anxiety has been supported by people outside his immediate church community. Referencing Lewis Smedes' Shame and Grace, Markus Watson illustrates how acceptance from others can help people feel less anxious and more acceptable. Discussing his book about anxiety with a church small group, Alan Fadling emphasizes the value of having outside perspectives to reassure one's concerns. Understanding God's joyful nature can lead to personal transformation and fuller acceptance of grace. Markus Watson relates a story about providing comfort rather than judgment, illustrating how fear and anxiety are addressed in a supportive manner. Categorizing anxiety as a sin is unhelpful, Fadling emphasizes, especially from a pastoral perspective. Referencing Eugene Peterson's interpretation from Philippians 4, Alan Fadling focuses on replacing anxiety with peace through prayer. We should recognize God's presence in anxious moments through prayer and reflection rather than avoid anxiety. Inspired by Dallas Willard, Fadling shares a personal practice of using scripture to find peace amidst anxiety. Psalms of Lament can help engage with and express anxiety while relying on God's support. Journaling with honesty, as practiced by Alan Fadling, serves as a personal dialogue with God and reinforces that God cares and one is not alone. Fadling's early ministry concerns included whether congregants liked him, stemming from personal insecurity. Discussing a "recognition deficit," Alan Fadling notes the mistake of seeking validation from congregations instead of from God.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Alan Fadling:Unhurriedliving.comUnhurried Living PodcastBooks mentioned:A Non-Anxious Life, by Alan FadlingThe Wounded Healer, by Henri NouwenShame and Grace, by Lewis SmedesEmotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Lewis SmedesRelated Episodes:The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon HuckinsSaudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
On today's episode, we discuss the ways our faith has changed as we've grown in discipleship and justice work. Our spiritual practices, as well as our relationships with church, God, and the non-Christian world have all transformed over time, sometimes in surprising ways that would have made us uncomfortable in our earlier years as followers of Jesus. It's a personal and instructive conversation on how to grow up with Jesus that we know will be helpful for a lot of people. Plus, after that conversation we get into the war in Sudan and why it's an important topic for us to learn about and engage with.Mentioned in the episode:- The episode of the Movement Memos podcast about the war in Sudan- The link to donate to the Sudan Solidarity Collective via PayPalCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Multitude Productions- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: I'm trying to live in the reality that God actually loves me and he actually loves other people, and that's just true. And to live in that quote- unquote, belovedness is really, really, really difficult in a extractivist, culturally colonized, post-plantation, capitalistic society.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's really, really hard when every single thing that I was raised to do goes against, just receiving anything.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: This week we have a great conversation. There's no guest this week, it's just Jonathan and I. And we are actually going to be talking about something that we originally were gonna talk to Lisa about in the last episode, but we ran out of time [laughter]. And we thought it would be, actually it was worth taking the time to talk about this in a full episode format. And the topic is basically this, as people grow not just normally in their faith, but also in the kind of work that we're doing, resisting the idols of America and confronting injustice and that sort of thing in their faith, your personal spiritual life tends to change [laughter], to put it mildly. And we wanted to talk about that.It's something that we don't necessarily hear a lot of people talking about as much and I think it's something that people are kind of concerned about. Like it's in the back of people's heads when they start to dive into these justice issues. It's something that I think conservative Christianity has put in the back of your heads [laughs], like your personal walk with Jesus, or your something like that is going to falter if you stray down this road. And so we wanna talk about how things have changed with us, and be as open and honest about that as possible, with our spiritual practices, with our relationship with God, with our relationship with church and kind of the world outside.And then we're gonna get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week, we will be talking about a really fascinating and informative podcast on the war that is currently happening in Sudan that has been going on for about a year and a half. If you don't know a lot about that war, or if you just want some more insight into what's going on there, please stay tuned for that. It'll be an interesting conversation, for sure. So we're going to get into all of that in a minute. I think this is gonna be a really fruitful and helpful conversation for a lot of people. Before we jump in though, Jonathan,Jonathan Walton: Hey friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and everything we do at KTF Press. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics and culture and help you seek Jesus and confront injustice, that's so desperately needed today. We're resisting the idols of the American church by elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who might narrow it to sin and salvation or some other small, little box. Jesus' gospel is bigger than that. The two of us have a lot of experience [laughs] doing this in community and individually.We've been friends for a good long time, and so I hope that you can come to us and trust us for good conversation, dialogue and prayerful, deliberate action. So become a paid subscriber, and get all the bonus episodes to this show, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats. You can comment on posts and a lot more. So again, go to KTFPress.com, join us and become a paid subscriber. And if you really wanna double down, become a founding member. Thanks, y'all.Sy Hoekstra: You get a free book if you're a founding member. So that's…Jonathan Walton: You do get a free book.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Because we publish books too. I guess we didn't… we have to tell people that.Jonathan Walton: That's true.Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening, if this is your first episode, you didn't know that. We've published a couple of books.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan, let's dive in. Let's talk about, as you have grown over the past however many years since you've been doing this kind of work, which for you is what now, 15? No, almost 15.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: More than 15. It's more than 15 years.Jonathan Walton: It's more than 15. It'd probably be like… I was trying to reflect on this. I think I seriously stepped into this stuff in 2005 when I wrote that first poem about child soldiers and sex trafficking victims and was like, “I wanna do this, because Jesus loves me, and Jesus loves all people.” And so yeah, almost 20 years.Sy Hoekstra: Was that “Decisions?” Is that the poem?Jonathan Walton: I think it was actually “Invisible Children.” That poem.Sy Hoekstra: Okay. Literally because of the documentary Invisible Children.Jonathan Walton: Yes. That was the first advocacy poem that I wrote.Sy Hoekstra: So since then, how have your individual spiritual practices changed your scripture reading, that sort of thing? The kind of thing that at one point we might have called our quiet time, or our daily whatever. Where are you at?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Absolutely. So I do not have daily quiet times. How do I explain this? When the Psalms say, “write the words of God on your hearts that you might not sin against him,” I think with all of us, it's kind of like building a habit. So I read a lot of scripture when I was a kid. I read a lot of scripture when I was a college student. And I think it was because I literally needed flesh and bones on just the air of my faith. And I think literally sitting there and listening to sermons for hours as I go about my day in my room and not study in college, or me and my brother would do [laughs] these weird things because we lived in the South and had nothing to do on this 30-acre farm, is we memorized the entire Charlton Heston film, The Ten Commandments.So me and my brother literally memorized the entire six hour epic that is The Ten Commandments. And so I just had this desire, and I think habit of just like memorizing and learning about God because the context that you're in. And so I think that there was a season in my life where sitting in the word of God was just a regular practice. And now I would say, just to overtake scripture, scripture is for me a process of recall and reflection. Like I have to give a talk next week on racism and racial reconciliation and justice. And if you had said to me, “Jonathan, what passage are you gonna speak from?” Like, because I've studied Genesis 1, because I've studied Isaiah 61, because I've studied Isaiah 58, because I've leaned into John 4, because I'm leaning in to Luke 4, I can grab from any of these places because it's almost like riding a bike in that way. I don't have to ride a bike every day to know how to ride a bike.And so I think if you're sitting there thinking to yourself, “I don't do a daily quiet time,” I don't know that you are negatively impacted. I know that you may be shaped differently, but we don't lose God, just like we don't lose the knowledge of something in that way. So I think Scripture for me has become more of a remembering and reflective process, rather than an active like, “Oh man, I need to know more.” And I think if we do scripture prayer, so let's talk about prayer, liturgy has taken on a more significant part of my life.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Partially because I've stepped out of the, “let's prioritize this as better” box. So when I grew up in the South, I was like, oh, I go to a Black southern Baptist church, not a Southern Baptist Church. Let's be clear about that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Spontaneous worship was quote- unquote, the best in my mind. Then I come to InterVarsity and more quote- unquote, evangelical spaces, and then it's like, well, popcorn prayer. Every single person goes individually and we all listen and try not to fall asleep.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And then I go to another place and it's like the quote- unquote, warrior prayer. Like this lion's war prayer. Everybody's praying at once. And that was amazing.Sy Hoekstra: Charismatic.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it was amazing, but overwhelming. And I would go to these places and say, oh, one is better than the other, when in reality, these are just expressions of God's faithfulness to different parts of his body. And so I think the season I'm in now, I've leaned into the prayer without ceasing, where it's like I am in conversation with God. I can be in prayer just going about my every day, similar to scripture with the riding the bike thing. These are things that I've marinated in, and so I'm riding the bike all day. I might get on the bike in the morning, I might not, but God is an active part of my day. And so I think the last thing just about church and preaching. This is hard [laughter].And some people might get upset with this, but church has taken, the institution; going to, sitting in. That's probably the last thing that I'm still processing. My children don't want to go to church some days, and I have a high value for that. And I have to ask myself, why do I have that high of a value? And Maia asked me, because she was crying, she didn't wanna go to church. She said, “Why do you wanna go?” And I told her, I said, “Maia, sometimes I have a really hard week, and I go to hang out with other believers because they encourage me that God is faithful and I can make it through.” And I said, “Some weeks are good for me, and then I go to church, and someone may be having a poor week, and then I'm able to encourage them to make it through and center ourselves on Jesus.”And I said, “In that way…” I didn't say this this way, but we bear one another's burdens with love. We are able to come alongside each other. And she didn't get it, and that's fine, she's eight.Sy Hoekstra: [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But I recognize that that's actually what I'm looking for when I go to church. And so if that's what I'm looking for, how can I have that in other spaces that my family also feels closer to God as well, so that we can grow together in that way? So I've stopped expecting the pastor to serve me a platter of spiritual goodies every week. [laughter] I've stop expecting this community in some way to be the buffet from which I gather my spiritual authority and intimacy with God. And that didn't used to be the case. It was like, “I got to go to church or I'm wrong. I got to be in the building, or something's messed up with my faith. I might be falling away.” And that's just not true, because I don't forget how to ride a bike. Like it's just not a thing.So, yeah, I would say those big three things of prayer, scripture and going to church have changed. And later we could talk about justice stuff, but those things around just our relationship with God have changed for me.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's funny you said the thing that was a big deal to you, the second one was about like the spontaneous worship is the best, or this kind of prayer is the best or whatever. And that it's just so cultural and stuff because I never had any of those.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I was like it's whatever. Nobody taught me that one… maybe somebody tried to, but it never got really inculcated in me that one kind of prayer or something was better than the other. But the daily scripture reading thing was so… Like you saying, “I don't read scripture every day,” there's still some little part of me that feels like, “Ooh, should he say that?” [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: And it really just depends on where you grow up. Because a funny thing, like part of the scripture thing for me is, at some point I realized, I was like, “Hey, wait a minute [laughs], for the overwhelming majority of Christians who have ever lived, they A, could not read…”Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Right.Sy Hoekstra: “…and B, did not have access to the printed word.” The only time they were getting scripture was at mass on Sunday. And it's just one of those things where it's an enormous privilege, and we should, I'm not saying take it for granted, but it's something that has not only been not necessary for discipleship, but literally impossible for [laughter] most Christians who have ever lived. It's just an enormous privilege that we treat like a necessity or we treat like an imperative. And the distinction between those two things can be subtle, but it's real. They're not the same thing [laughter].Jonathan Walton: True.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so for me, I've talked about this in one of the bonus episodes we did, but I'll make a slightly different point about it, which is, I used to, like you sort of alluded to, I used to come at daily scripture reading and prayer and everything from a place of deep anxiety. Constantly trying to stay up on whatever I had decided was the requirement for the day, and then falling behind and becoming anxious about it, and just getting on this treadmill of trying to catch up and then being anxious again. And a funny thing happened when I got into, as we were talking about on our recent subscriber call, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality [laughs] and learned about that anxiety and where it was coming from, and tried to change my relationship to it, and it decreased a lot, I realized when the anxiety went away I started to feel like my love for or even just my care for God, was going away.Jonathan Walton: Huh.Sy Hoekstra: Like if I wasn't anxious that I was reading scripture every day, it's kind of like what I just said, like there's still some part of me that feels like ugh [laughter]. If I wasn't anxious, then I didn't love God, which is kind of dark.Jonathan Walton: It is. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You know what I mean? It's like putting yourself in a sort of abusive relationship with God and saying, “If you don't keep up with me, then I'm gonna punish you in some way,” or something negative is gonna happen. It was never entirely clear what negative thing was gonna happen to me.Jonathan Walton: Just a threat. Just a threat.Sy Hoekstra: That something was bad. I was gonna backslide in some way. So, yeah, but the amount of time, like on a daily basis, that I spend praying or reading scripture has also decreased, and then anxiety went away. And then I had to get used to the anxiety not being there and being like, “Hey, that's okay. This is actually a reflection of the fact that I now on a much more embodied level, understand that God loves and accepts me.” [laughter] That's a good thing.Jonathan Walton: That is a great thing. Yes, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: Another big thing for me was, this is my change with regard to scripture, is letting the Bible be what the Bible says that it is, as opposed to what the spiritual authorities in my life told me that it was supposed to be. And so that's things like, I had a really interesting experience where I went through this thing called the Academy of Christian Thought. There was this three-year read-through-the-Bible program. It was run by this scholar named Ron Choong, a Malaysian guy who's really incredible. But one of the things he talked about was the idea that every word of the Bible is literally true. And he would go through it and he would say, “Okay, so there are these stories that Jesus tells, that when he tells them, like the parables.Like say, The Good Samaritan or whatever. We understand that Jesus is telling a story here, and whether or not the story itself is true doesn't matter. He's making a point.” It's a sermon illustration, effectively. And Jesus never claims that the stories are true. We're all fine with that. We're not saying if the guy didn't actually get beat up on the road to Jericho, then the Bible's integrity is in question. And he was like, “Okay, so how about the book of Jonah?” He's like, Take the whole thing with the fish and the spending three days in the belly of a fish, which seems scientifically impossible, and then you get… like without dying, whatever. It could be a miracle. But does the Bible ever actually say, does the book of Jonah ever actually say, “The following is a true story?” The answer is, no, it doesn't [laughter].And can you still learn all the same lessons about faith and everything from the book of Jonah if it's not true, like the parable of The Good Samaritan or any other parables Jesus tells? Yes, you can.Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So does it really matter [laughs] whether the story in the book of Jonah is true? No, it does not. It affects nothing [laughter]. And by acknowledging that, you're just letting the Bible be what it is, which is, it's here's a story. It just told you a story, and whether or not it was true or not is not a point that the Bible makes, and therefore is not a point that matters.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] And so there were a lot of just simple things like that. He was like, The book of Revelation, you do not have to have a perfect understanding of what every twist and turn in that bizarre apocalyptic dream meant. You don't. You don't you don't have to have it. Because the Bible never tells you that you had to have it [laughter]. It just says, “Here's a dream from John,” and then it tells you a bunch of stuff that happened [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. It's true.Sy Hoekstra: And so it's like there was a lot of that that I thought was extremely helpful and allowed me to then use my mind. And then people would come back with the verse in 2 Timothy, “All scripture is God breathed,” and et cetera, et cetera. And [laughs] Ron would just be like, “That was literally written at a time when the New Testament was not canonized, and half of it was not even written yet.” [laughs] So it's like, what scripture is God breathed, you know what I mean? [laughter And also, does God breathed or trustworthy for instruction, does that mean the book of Jonah's literally true? No. [laughter] Like letting the Bible be what the Bible is was important to me, and understanding…We talked in that episode with Mako Nagasawa about how sometimes translations of the Bible differ from each other in significant ways, and we picked which one we followed, and that's just a reality [laughs]. And you can still have a very high view of the authority of Scripture, it can still guide your life, it can still be an authority, it can be all those things, and you can acknowledge realities, and your faith doesn't fall apart. That was a big one for me [laughs]. A lot of that also has to do with letting go of the need to have everything under control in a perfect little box.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is a very… was just a real White way of thinking about it to be frank [laughs]. We must have our systematic theology, and everything must be clear and tied up neatly. So the last thing for me, I think, is just knowing that the way that God speaks to people changes over time. And so like I know there are ways that I could be going back and trying to find the things about my early faith that were really exciting and new and gave me these big spiritual highs, and a lot of those things just don't happen anymore. And I see that as I get older, there are so many people I know like that. And there are so many, there's such a range of reactions to that from people who are like, some people are totally comfortable with the fact that God changes how he talks to people over time.And that even happens in the Bible. People hear from God in different ways, in new ways. And there are some people who are like, can lose their faith over that. They can panic, and it's like, “I'm not hearing God the way that I heard got at one point,” and I guess the possibility of change is not there [laughs]. And so it's like, if I'm not getting that same experience, then something has gone terribly wrong or whatever, and I need to get back there. I would just really encourage people to drop that way of thinking [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: It is okay if your relationship with God changes, the way that you communicate with God changes.Jonathan Walton: There's nothing healthy about a plant that stays the same size over year's time.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly.Jonathan Walton: Man.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan, you talked about this one a little bit already, but I wanted to talk about our relationships with churches and the institutions of churches. Did you have more to say on that, or was…?Jonathan Walton: Well, yeah. I think something that is intriguing to me, and I dabble in thread and Facebook debates sometimes just to ask questions.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And just as an example, and friends, I again, in the just modeling the growth and change and willingness to ponder in a way that doesn't shake my salvation, I'm gonna try to model that. And so a question that came up for me yesterday while I was on threads, there's a man named Eugene Kim, who I've just followed for a little while.Sy Hoekstra: He's a pastor, right?Jonathan Walton: He was a pastor, and he is a pastor now, but they just launched this thing called the Wild Fig organization. And so essentially, they're trying to decentralize the church and say, there are lots of people who follow Jesus and wanna organize in ways that are transformative and help for them in their walks with God. And we just need to figure out a different way of credentialing people than getting folks organized around this man who we believe is God named Jesus.” And there's another thing like this out in Seattle called Dinner Church, where a church sold their building, and they have 25 dinner churches where people come to church to have dinner, and they just eat and talk about God, almost like they did in Acts. Whoopitty.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And so that's what they're doing, and they're actually putting pastors in these house churches just to be present at these dinner churches. And so there are people who would say, “No, we cannot do that.” Like, I remember sitting down with a pastor in New York City who was just like, “Jonathan, I don't think that you should do campus ministry, because it should be done in the church.” And I was like, “Oh, well, I think this meeting is over.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: “And I hope you pay for this food.” But all that to say it's like, that was one conversation. Another conversation was like, “If you do that, what about the traditions of the church?” All of these things. And I'm like, I hear you on the tradition, but why are we choosing to model some things from Acts and then saying other things we can't do anymore? Seems like the Great Commission commissioned all people to baptize. Seems like the Great Commission commissioned all people to… like 2 Corinthians and the model about how to take communion. I don't see where that says I can't do that at home, because they were done in homes. So all of this. Some people say that's great, some people say you can't do that.But when I was specifically looking at the Wild Fig network yesterday in this threads conversation, someone said, “You're doing a heretical thing, you're breaking off. And if you wanna join anything, just go back to the Catholic Church, because that is where it all began.” And I thought to myself, and this is a genuine question, and I haven't seen his response yet, but I said, “Did Jesus come to build the Catholic Church?” There may be, very well be an argument for that that I'm not aware of because I'm not Catholic. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there definitely is [laughs].Jonathan Walton: There definitely is [laughter]. And so I am wondering what that means, as someone downstream of colonization, abuse, violence and oppression, coupled with the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, and every other Western faith, political faction that decided to join themselves on the colonialist project, I wonder if Jesus came to build the Catholic Church. And there's 1500 years of arguing about that and making that case to be true. At the same time, I'm like, 1 Corinthians one, when Paul is writing to the church at Corinth, he says, “Some might be for Paul, some might be for Cephas, which is Peter. Some might be for Apollos, but the reality is, we all need to be for Jesus.”So if this person is making an argument against pastor Eugene Kim, I'm like, “Why are you saying he can't go do that? What's the goal?” Because if Eugene goes and baptizes a thousand people, and all these people come to faith and it's an amazing thing, what is the loss for the kingdom? You know what I mean?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Well, so here's the loss. I still don't think this is correct, but the loss from the Catholic perspective is you only can experience the fullness of the revelation of the Spirit of God within the Catholic Church. That is where it happens, and it happens nowhere else, and it cannot happen anywhere else.Jonathan Walton: Now see, okay, this is where I would push back ridiculously hard.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, me too, but yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and using Peter, Peter in Acts chapter 10 has a very specific way that he thinks the Spirit of God is being revealed. And God blows that wide open first with a vision for him. The sheet comes down, look at this three times, three times, three times. Then the same thing for Cornelius. And so if we try to limit the spirit or movement of God, we will fail. So why do that [laughs]? There's so many points in scripture where God is breaking through in ways that we cannot fathom or recognize.Sy Hoekstra: Amen to that.Jonathan Walton: And so, I think the thing about the church, I'm like, it's evolving for me, not in the Darwin way, but just like a development. Because to be like, “Oh, evolution,” because we have these wrong conflations in our brain. But my faith is evolving, but I'm not moving farther away from Jesus, and that includes the church. Because similar to you, I would say I am closer to Jesus than I was when I was 17 years old… 16 when I got thrown across the parking lot on a motorcycle, or 19 years old when Ashley told me to follow… Ashley Byrd, me and Sy's staff worker for InterVarsity, invited me to follow Jesus. I'm still close, I'm closer to Jesus than I was then, and I've been a part of very different churches and all those things.So my relationship with God is predicated on my adoption into the capital “C” Church, not the specific church on my block in my neighborhood, or where I gather with folks. And so I'm grateful that the rapture catches all of us and not just insert your denomination here.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So for me, I am less engaged than I used to be, but that's because what I used to do was let Christian community and Christian programming activity take up the vast majority of my free time, because I thought we had something to prove as a community. You know what I mean? Like, I thought you had to be, it's a little bit vague what I thought I think, or a little bit blurry to me now. But it was something along the lines of, some interpretation of the idea that we're the hands and feet of Jesus, or we are here to testify to him and his goodness as a community. That meant that you had to be super involved in your community. You had to be something to prove the worthiness of God, basically.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is completely the opposite of what I now think, which is that no matter what your community is, the fact that God loves you is the proof of the worthiness of God [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to prove nothing. Similar to my quiet times and everything, it took a lot of the pressure off of my need to be involved in religious activity, and therefore it decreased, but not in like a I'm leaving the church way, just in what I think is a healthy way [laughs]. I am now very suspicious if I go to a church and the consistent thing that they are telling people to do in terms of discipleship is just get more involved in that church's programming. As opposed to being something in their neighborhood, or trying to turn outwards in some significant way. That, to me, is a big ol' red flag. I'm constantly now thinking about what is reasonable to expect of a church, versus what I would have want a church to ideally be.I think this happens to everyone as they grow up a little bit, is you start to see the inner workings of a church and how just very ordinary and sometimes petty and gross, it can be.Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Ordinary, petty and gross.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's just another fallen institution [laughs]. And people have all their own little individual problems, and some of those problems are big and some of them are small. And it's just not that different than any other organization. And that is disappointing if you think it's supposed to be this shining beacon on a hill, which is actually a metaphor for the kingdom of God, and not your individual neighborhood's church [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Scripturally speaking. I think about that balance more, like what can I reasonably expect versus what would I ideally want this institution to be? And from what I've talked to, like Christians who are much older than me, that never changes. That's the mature way to go about [laughter] looking at a church. You just, you have to do it that way, and not just think of the church as this thing that needs to be something that is like this shining example to the entire world of how to do or be something. And this is especially true in a context where we have the idols of empire built in. I have to go to my church in New York City in 2024 and I have to recognize this is a culture that is filled with greed and self-interest.And so odds are, this church is also going to be filled with greed and self-interest. So what can I reasonably expect from this church [laughter]? That's part of it. And again, it's just reality. It's sad. It's a thing that I had to work through emotionally. But it is also a reality that you have to come to terms with.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: I'm much more ready to walk out of a church when I hear nonsense than I used to be [laughter].Jonathan Walton: I'm just willing to go. Thanks.Sy Hoekstra: Which I don't necessarily… that doesn't even mean like leave the community and turn my back on everyone. I just mean if I hear some nonsense from the pastor, I can go home, and that's okay [laughter]. And I've done that a few times. I had this one pastor a while back who just got on a streak. I don't know what happened, man, but it was this one month where at maybe two or three of the sermons he just said some stuff that was super ableist. I don't know what happened. He never even talked about people with disabilities before, and all of a sudden it's like, got to bring disabled people up all the time. You got to say really nonsense, insensitive, ridiculous stuff.And there was one time I just left. I was like, “I'm gonna go to the bathroom.” And then I came out of the bathroom and I was like, “Actually, I'm not going back in there.”Jonathan Walton: [laughter] Right. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I just remember looking at the door back into the service and the door to leave the building, and the choice could not have been clearer [laughter]. It was like a hundred percent of me wants to go this way, zero percent of me wants to go that way.Jonathan Walton: Brunch with Jesus. I'm gonna leave now. Yeah, that makes sense.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Last question. How have things changed between you and the rest of the world [laughs]? The people outside of the church? How are you thinking differently? I'm sure there's a lot to say here, but…Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy. Okay, so I can be friends with non-Christians…Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Not every woman in the world, their primary relationship to me is I shouldn't sleep with them.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I see.Jonathan Walton: So either this woman is my wife or a temptation. Like that…Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I got you.Jonathan Walton: This is a human being made in the image of God that I am incomplete without on this side of heaven [laughs]. Like God desires shalom between me and her or them. It's a group. Also, it's very possible to be generous to people, and if it doesn't go against my taxes, it's still a great thing to give to. Friends, there's so much crap in that, and I wanted to say the other word.Sy Hoekstra: Churches make a big deal out of that your gift here will be tax deductible or whatever [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And institutional giving or whatever, and you're just like, “No, actually, I can tithe to the guy on the corner who needs a sandwich.”Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. I also think that, along with the every, I can be friends with non-Christians, and this is still actually hard for me, is I can learn from people that don't believe in Jesus the same way I do.Sy Hoekstra: Is it hard for you? Because I think sometimes, like we were talking about Valarie Kaur the other day, the seek prophet who says amazing things and you were…Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes. So here's what I mean by that. And I think my wife is the one who challenges me on this.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: It's very different to learn from someone online and through their books, but she said, “Jonathan, when you have relationships with people, intimate relationships with them,” she said, “It doesn't register for me as you're talking with them, Jonathan, that you want to learn from them.” And I'll also be really honest, my pastor told me this. When I first met him, he invited one of his friends over, and we wanted to have this conversation. And I asked him, I said, “What was that like for you?” And he said, “Well, it seemed like you were not interested in getting to know us. You just wanted to know what we thought about these things.” And that to me, is something that I'm like, oh.I believed, past tense, and I'm still working through that, I think my relationship with God is based upon my utility to people around me, and if I'm not useful, then I'm not valuable. And if I believe it about myself, I'm gonna reflect that outwards.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so, something that bothers me that I'm still working through is, how can I be in relationships with people and learn from them, and not require them to change or grow in some way or become or believe like me, those things would probably be the biggest, but that last one is probably… I mean, all of those I'm still working through, but that last one is the most potent right now as I try to make friends and be in community with people. What about you? Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, the friends with non-Christians thing is funny to me. The specific thing for me is that I'm not trying to, it's similar, I'm not trying to convert and change everybody. There was a while when I was young kind of late teens or early 20s, where I literally thought just every interaction I had with a non-Christian had to be toward the end of making them a Christian at some point.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And I now realize that ensuring the salvation of anyone, including myself, not my job [laughs]. No one ever said that was my job in the Bible, at least. And my job is to talk about the truth, like talk about what has happened in my life, but that's all I got to do. Just talk about it [laughs]. I got to testify to the truth, and that does not mean that I need any individual person ever changes as a result [laughter]. That is not part of my job. I want people to know Jesus, but that's different than thinking that everything I do must be toward some end of like, honestly kind of manipulating people into [laughs] that, which is the constant evangelical tendency, hell being the biggest manipulator. “Do this or you will be tortured forever,” and framing it that way.We're constantly framing things in terms of manipulating people to just be one of us. I don't do that anymore. Thank goodness [laughs]. And stuff like that that makes me, I look back and I'm always like, I don't think that anything I was involved in actually meets the definition of a cult. But there was some cult-y aspects of it, for sure [laughs]. There was some stuff in there that was [laughs]9 weird in terms of how you related to other people. I'm much less suspicious to the rest of the world. I don't think the rest of the world, kind of like you said about women, just anybody in general, isn't trying to tempt me out of something or send me down a wrong road, which then allows me to enjoy, not just learning from people like you said, but also just beauty and joy in places that I couldn't, I wasn't allowed to find it before.A result of all that is people are no longer projects to me. This is all very similar to what you said, actually. So I think those are my main ones. And I said the last thing was the last question, but I actually did have one more question written down here. Do you wanna [laughter] go through that one too, or no?Jonathan Walton: I mean, I think we've talked about this a lot where it's like, your last question being, how has my relationship and view of God changed?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And what I would say is… and you said this way back in the podcast already. I'm trying to live in the reality that God actually loves me and he actually loves other people, and that's just true. And that can be my posture bent orientation to the world at all times. And to live in that quote- unquote, belovedness is really, really, really difficult in a extractivist, culturally colonized, post-plantation, capitalistic society.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's really, really hard when every single thing that I was raised to do goes against just receiving anything.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I mean, that's why the grace of God is confounding. But all that to say, I think I'm trying to live in that. And I think teaching my children that has taught me that more than anything.Sy Hoekstra: Early on in my faith, one of the seeds that I think God planted really early on was, and I've talked about this before. I had a lot of trouble with the idea of hell when I was considering following Jesus. And the way that that got resolved for me was to stop, I stopped asking questions about the unfairness of the idea of hell, because I came to trust Jesus as a person and say, “Whatever thing is going on there with these problems, with the unfairness of hell that I have, Jesus did something to himself. God did something to himself in the form of the cross that was also extremely unfair [laughs], actively harmed himself in order to get us to trust him.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Actively harmed himself, is maybe a weird way to put it. Like, lived in such solidarity with us as humans, and especially as oppressed and vulnerable humans, that he died and had some terrible spiritual fate that people characterize in different ways, depending on what denomination you're from or whatever, happened to him [laughs]. And that then makes me trust him and ask questions about, why would God do this to God's self?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Why would God do this to himself, as opposed to, why would God do this to us? And I decided to follow and trust Jesus before I really had answers, or had passed through all the different theologies of hell or any of that stuff. And so the seed there is talking about truth and talking about faith as trust in a person, and not as belief in specific doctrines or trust in specific doctrines. And I've leaned way into that. That's the thing that has grown over time and has replaced a lot of the anxiety and trust that I was putting in other things that were either of my own effort, or what other people told me I had to believe or whatever, is trust in God the being, like the spiritual entity with which I have actually interacted and I know and I love.And that part of my faith has just grown, I think, exponentially, and has allowed me to be okay with things I don't understand. And I have long term things that I don't understand, that I do not have answers to that make me uncomfortable. And still be okay with that [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, because it's about a relationship, not perfect understanding at all times.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And if you trust God, you don't have to understand all things, just like we trust people, even though we don't understand every single thing about them.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, which is different than trusting God as a replacement for understanding [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So let's get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletters. And remember, you can get our newsletter for free just by going to KTFPress.com, and signing up for our mailing list. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts and other media from both of us on things that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus you'll get reflections to keep you grounded and hopeful as we engage in this challenging work together, news about what's going on with KTF and a lot more. So go get that free subscription, and if you want to, you should become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com.So this week, Sy, we're gonna be talking about the war in Sudan. Can you summarize the main points for us?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. And I know there are some people who know nothing about this war, so I will give kind of all the basics here. Basically, Sudan has been at war for about a year and a half, since April of 2023. And it's between two state-armed factions, one is the regular military, and the other is kind of a paramilitary force that was set up at one point that were supposed to kind of integrate into each other, and instead they were fighting over power. But what they had done previously together was to suppress the popular uprising that began in 2018 and it was to oust the longtime dictator Omar al-Bashir, and it had started as these organizations called neighborhood resistance committees all over the country.It's a little bit tough to document how many of them there are, but they're these highly localized, very fluid groups that don't have a single leader who are doing all kinds of political organizing at a local level all around the country, coordinating with each other incredibly well, and also providing mutual aid and humanitarian aid as this war goes on. They basically organized these sit ins where they had, I mean, I don't remember the numbers, a ton of people in Khartoum trying to get rid of, Khartoum is the capital, trying to get rid of al-Bashir, and they successfully did it. And then they had a whole plan to transition to an actually civilian-led democratic government, but they were sort of beaten back by military and this other paramilitary group in a coup in 2021.So there was an attempt for a couple of years to really transition Sudan to a democracy government accountable to the people, and it did not work because of this counter revolutionary coup. And so the resource that I had was this podcast from Truthout that's called Movement Memos, and they were talking to two members of the Sudanese diaspora in Canada who, one of the main points they were trying to make was that this is a counter revolutionary war. A lot of the media will portray it as a civil war, and really it is forces fighting over who gets power after basically pushing people down. Racism is a big part of the context of this too, because a lot of the elites, the military and the paramilitary elites, and everybody who's in charge of the country are Arabic. Like ethnically or racially Arabic. And a lot of the people from the South and from the resistance committees who are part of the revolutionary groups are Black.So I think a lot of the reason that we haven't talked about this is the US is not directly involved. There are things that the US does that create some problems, like the sanctions that we still have on Sudan. But the reason everyone needs to care about this is, first of all, about fifteen or sixteen thousand people have died, which is not on the same scale of death as Palestine exactly or whatever, not to minimize those deaths or anything, but they have created the largest displacement crisis anywhere in the world. There are more than eight million people who have been displaced by this war. There's famine and starvation happening. Surrounding countries are refusing refugees. In some cases, Egypt has been doing this for some time.The guests of the podcast are really saying that these neighborhood committees are the people who need outside support the most, because there's, a lot of the NGOs and everybody have fled. So amidst this humanitarian crisis, these people on the ground doing this mutual aid are the only people keeping people alive. And they actually gave a link, which I will provide, to an organization called the Sudan Solidarity Committee I believe. I can't remember the last word. Sudan Solidarity something, where you can just donate money directly to these resistance committees. They're getting it to them via PayPal, and people are just dispersing it as needed. And it's direct giving. It's nothing paternalistic.You're just giving them money, and they're doing with it what they need. And apparently a lot of the Sudanese diaspora is trying to support this group, but they can't do it on their own, and a lot of them are struggling with their own, all the financial issues that come around immigrating to other parts of the world. So yeah, we'll have the link for that in the show notes. Jonathan, that's a lot of information I just gave. I just kind of wanna know what it is that you think about this whole situation, your reaction to it, anything about the podcast that you thought was interesting.Jonathan Walton: So one thing that's really important to me is history. And fortunately, whether we're talking about Gaza, whether we're talking about Haiti, whether we're talking about Hawaii, whether we're talking about any of these places, really anywhere that colonization has touched, there's a history.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. They get into that in the podcast too.Jonathan Walton: They do. They get into it in the podcast, because history, we need to understand how we got here to be able to make something different. And what I thought was normal and revolutionary is what the scholars who are participating and being interviewed and things like that, have done with their education. So the folks they're interviewing got their education here in the West with a mind for liberation of their own people, but not their own people, understanding how this racially assigned group downstream of colonialism called Black is basically undergirding the entire economy in the world for the last 350 years. We have to engage with that as a reality, that Africa as a continent can hold the United States, China, Russia and Europe in it with room to spare. The second largest rainforest in the world is in the Congo.We've got these huge, massive amounts of resources in Africa, not just but also including its people who have been enslaved in various ways by various groups for the last 400 years. So it's helpful just that background that was provided, and then how that trickles down into then conflict in Sudan.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Can I just note one interesting fact that they've mentioned?Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: That I don't think we think about a lot, is when the colonial government left Sudan, they just vacated 800 government administrative positions or something. I can't remember what the exact number was. It was hundreds. They just vacated them. They did nothing to transition them. They didn't find people to fill them. They just left them empty [laughs]. And what do you think is gonna happen when you just create a massive power vacuum like that, with no transitional plan? You get a dictator, shocking. You know what I mean [laughs]? You get a dictator doing the exact same thing that the colonialist government that came before it did, which was effectively be a dictator.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. Because whoever had access to power post the colony is the people that colonizers empowered the majority of the time. Those educated folks, those are the people with power and resources. And so what do they do? We do what's been taught to us because we're hundreds of years removed from our own ways of leadership, our own matrilineal, patrilineal, or communal ways of governing and dividing ourselves and working together. And so all we have is the master's tools, as Audre Lorde would say. And so I think that connection to history, the connection to globalized blackness, and then just the ridiculous amount of coordination that I think, in the United States and in more resource places gets minimized, but in order, and this is where I might, “Oh, Jonathan, you're a Marxist,” and da da da.But let's lean on the reality that something Ta-Nehisi Coates said, and something will come up in the newsletter is, the way that we organize ourselves and the way that we exist together in the world is not inherent. We need to have nations that do X, Y and Z. That's a young system. Sharing is as old as we are, and so could we as followers of Jesus, as people who want to see beauty, love, justice and all these things flow in the world, just connect with our neighbors in ways that are transformative and helpful to say, “You are going through something, let me leverage my creative capacity and imagination to create ways that you can get what you need?” And I shared a video on Instagram today of a young woman named Taylor was sharing from North Carolina.She said, “If we can precision bomb people in a building a world away, we can precision guide food to people who need it.” We can do that. And so what I am empowered by, Munther Isaac said this similarly with what's happening in Gaza, when you are forced to be creative, that is where Jesus is, and that's where we can learn. And I think followers of Jesus like me in Bayside, I'm like, “Oh it's so hard for me to buy nothing and figure out this free thing and do this and do that.” And it's because I could just go to Target. I could just order on Amazon, but we don't have to do that. And I was emboldened and encouraged and empowered by the creativity, because I wonder what would happen if we learned from these people.Instead of creating a new way to do things when there's a crisis, we could actually create new ways to do things before the world is just destitute. And so I'm praying for the folks of Sudan. I wanna share [laughs] the ways to give. I'll probably sign up to give myself and then just would God move in us the way he has moved in them to mutually help and care for one another amid such destitution.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. One of the things that the guests said about the neighborhood resistance committees, that I thought was really interesting was, they were like, these committees are running services. Like they're providing food. In a couple cases, they actually took over abandoned hospitals and reopened them, found doctors and staffed them and get supplies there, whatever. They are running the country in a way that these paramilitary organizations are not. And they are out there actively proving we don't need these people [laughs]. We don't need these people, we can run the garment ourselves[laughs]. We can run the country ourselves. We have the energy to do it. We need the resources to do it. We could do so much more if there wasn't so much violence and displacement and poverty and famine.But yeah, that kind of imagination, that kind of, you're right. That kind of necessity has created in them just an incredible capacity to share and to love each other, frankly. And I also hope that we learn from that. But at the same time, that's why they've seen so much violence and repression, is because they are threatening the power structure. And not only that, but when they were doing the sit ins a few years ago, and they ousted Al-Bashir, there were other countries starting to look to them for similar resistance. There are people in, like they mentioned specifically in the podcast, there're people in Lebanon looking at Hezbollah and going, “Could we do something about this?” [laughs]People in other countries are actually looking to these Sudanese organizations. And so the ruling power structures have to shut that down. And it means that there are other countries involved in helping them shut it down. So it's like the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and Egypt and other countries that are not interested in seeing revolutions like this [laughs] are involved, are providing weapons, are doing all kinds of things and just interfering in a regional way, in the way that we as the US are used to doing globally all the time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: This particular conflict, the US doesn't see as being as closely aligned with its interests as say, defending Israel, or now empowering Israel to go invade other countries.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Which is what has just started as we are recording this. I'm sure we'll have more to say about that.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So go listen to this podcast. Go read more about this conflict in the media. The reason we wanted to bring it up is, I didn't wanna become the thing I'm critiquing and not talk about Sudan just because it doesn't affect the US. But man, the media is not talking about Sudan when we should be. So please go listen to this podcast. The link will be in the show notes, please just go learn more. Give if you can. They're asking for 10 Canadian dollars a month, which is like 7.50 US [laughs]. So please, if you have some money to spare, there are people in desperate need of it who are doing very good things with it. Alright, I'm gonna wrap us up there. Thank you so much for listening today. Jonathan, thank you for a great conversation, as always.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale. Editing by Multitude Productions. And the producers of this show are the lovely paid subscribers. Again, please consider becoming a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, get all the bonus episodes of this show, join our monthly Zoom calls, comment on our blog, on our Substack, and more. Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you in a couple of weeks for what I think will be the… yeah, will be the last show that we do before the election. So we'll be talking more about some current affairs then, and doing a great interview. So we will see you in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Stay blessed y'all.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan Walton: That was the first advo—like [sound of something repeatedly hitting the mic hard]whoa, hit the mic [laughter]. My first quote- unquote, advocacy poem that I wrote, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: But can you say that again, just without laughing or hitting the mic [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and slapping the mic? Yeah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe
Continuing our story about Joseph,we learned the importance of putting all your emotions out in front of the Lord.
Darryl begins a new series on emotional and mental health.
In Peter Scazzero's landmark book, "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality: It's Impossible to Be Spiritually Mature, While Remaining Emotionally Immature" we find a wonderful list of hallmarks of emotional spirituality. This episode, along with lots of fun, we discuss just a few of these characteristics. And just let me (Phil) say, Lucas totally kills in this one! Such great insight for such a young dude! Listen, like, and share! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/secondbreakfastwithlandp/support
Aileen continues our series on Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by looking at how we can know and accept our authentic self.
This week Matt continues our series of Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by looking at how we can break the power of the past.
It's impossible to be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature. God created us as beings who think and feel, who don't just understand theological truths but are called to live in a relationship with Him and others. Our emotional lives are a powerful place to meet God, and it is often beneath the surface where He desires to do His greatest transforming work. Join us in this new series as we pursue spiritual maturity through emotional maturity.
Episode Overview: - The Dangers of Neglecting Emotional Health- Why Do We Divide Spiritual and Emotional Life?- The Implications for Pastors and Church Leaders- Familial Normalization and Dismissing Struggles- Honesty and Transparency Among Pastors- The Impact of Seeking Congregational Approval- Practical Steps for IntegrationShow Notes & Resources: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xcjqRmtDCLdaMq4ZYEFlmyy--2jNKcRB/view?usp=sharing
Kirstine kicks off our new series looking at Emotionally Healthy Spirituality based on Peter Scazzero's book. This week she looks at what might be making us unhealthy in our spiritual lives.
Host Curtis Chang sits down with Pastor Caleb Campbell, author of the new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Caleb shares his powerful journey from disenfranchised young churchgoer to neo-nazi, and ultimately, his transformation into an evangelical pastor with a desire to reach adherents of Christian Nationalism. Together, Curtis and Caleb explore how our friends and neighbors become entangled in the worship of nationalism and political power and offer practical steps for inviting these individuals into meaningful relationships that foster hope and change. Bring The After Party course to your church or small group! Listen to Songs For the After Party, get sheet music, lyrics, and prayers for your church Donate to Redeeming Babel HERE Order Caleb E. Campbell's book: Disarming Leviathan Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE: Rich Mullins' Song: Sometimes By Step Galatians 6:1-2 NIV Tim Keller: Preaching to the Collective Heart (blog post) Pete Scazzaro's book: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality
The race of faith requires discipline. Discipline includes embracing hard circumstances that God sends our way, and also hard choices that we make to fight our own sin. In both cases, we trust that we are God's beloved children, and he wants to redeem our pain to make us more like himself. Because discipline hurts, we must remember that Jesus always goes before us, trusting his Father's will to the point of shedding his blood for us.Some resources on "straightening the path":- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Pete Scazzero- The Common Rule, Justin Whitmel Early- Liturgy of the Ordinary, Tish Harrison Warren- You Are What You Love, James K.A. Smith- Practicing the Way, John Mark Comer
Join Brandi and James as they share thoughts from Pete Scazzaro’s book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. They discuss the book’s principles and practices and how they apply to cross-cultural workers. Family Retreat Activities: Here are some activities for families to do together, including a family genogram. Here is a resource for anyone who would like to […]
Pastor Tom Kang dives into the world of emotions through Pixar's "Inside Out," exploring how our internal feelings shape our actions. He emphasizes the importance of balancing truth with emotions, citing illustrations and personal anecdotes, including a cross-country move and family movie night experiences. Pastor Tom underscores the necessity of emotional maturity for spiritual growth and shares practical steps to align emotions with faith. Highlighting insights from Pete Scazzaro's "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality," Kang challenges listeners to confront and healthily express their emotions, ensuring a deeper connection with God.
Originally 07/15/2022
299: Pastor Plek is joined by his wife, Adrienne, and counseling intern Hayley Hengst on this episode as they discuss the intertwining realms of emotional health and Christianity. Together they recall the laughter and hurdles of Adrienne's community group's expedition through "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality," revealing how the book served as a beacon for those navigating personal traumas with faith as their compass. They end this episode on a note of healing and hope, traversing the path of processing trauma, emphasizing the importance of being true to our emotions and the wisdom of seeking professional guidance. Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/givingSupport the Show.
Originally released 07/01/2022
Originally released 06/17/2022
Join Erin, Jamie, and Evan as we unpack actual memes sent by our listeners and provide responses that could be used in an online interaction. You'll hear a full spectrum of tips ranging from fruit of the Spirit to spice of the Spirit about things like emotional health, Jedi Jesus, and panic over parenting children in 2024. What does Dwight Schrute have to say about progressive Christianity, and who puts the “stud” in Bible study? You'll have to listen to find out! MENTIONS I need a visual: Find the memes on our Instagram | Here's another place you can find them Announcements? Don't miss a thing! Star Wars Jesus: Deep-Dive Ewan McGregor Keelee's emotional health journey: Check out Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero What's the latest over on Patreon? Watch our Fellowship Hall Replay with Aimee Byrd BONUS CONTENT We have tons of additional content, including monthly Fellowship Hall gatherings, Office Hours episodes, and so much more! You can access them now with a 7-day free trial. You'll be able to listen to over 250 more episodes! Tuition is just $5 a month after the trial period. Become a Seminarian here! THE POPCAST Check out our other podcast, The Popcast with Knox and Jamie. It's a weekly show about pop culture where we educate on the things that entertain but don't matter. Here is our suggested Popcast starter playlist. Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Dish from Faith Adjacent Shop our Amazon Link: amazon.com/shop/faithadjacent Follow Faith Adjacent on Socials: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Jennie is joined by Dr. Pete Scazzaro, author of Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. They dive into how emotional health and spiritual maturity cannot be separated and how to grow in those areas together. Get 15% off your Boll and Branch order when you use code MadeForThis at BollandBranch.com MAIN POINTS: How to be emotionally healthy Sit before the Lord, journal, and ask: what am I angry about, what am I sad about, what am I afraid or anxious about, what am I glad about? Emotions aren't wrong, they are necessary and unless you grow in them you are going to be spiritually stunted Discerning God's plan in your life Text BOOKCLUB to 214-225-6267 to Download the Book Club Guide and text us any questions you have about emotions! Go to DrinkAG1.com/MadeForThis to get a free 1 year supply of Vitamin D3 K2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. HELPFUL LINKS: Join the newsletter | Sign up for texts from Jennie and team Get your copy of Untangle Your Emotions here Dr. Pete Scazzaro's books CONNECT ON SOCIALS: Instagram | YouTube | Facebook | TikTok | Pinterest
Originally Released 06/03/2022
In this conversation, Adam McHugh, the author of Blood from a Stone, opens up about his transition from ministry as a hospice chaplain to the world of wine, becoming a wine tour guide and sommelier. Adam shares about the emotional rollercoaster that goes along with redefining one's identity and faith outside of traditionally established ministry roles.For pastors and ministry leaders struggling with letting go of their church-centered identities, or struggling with transitioning in the way they are called to lead in a constantly changing world, this conversation will encourage you to lean into the patience and the inner transformation needed to live and lead in new ways.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Adam McHugh shares his journey from ministry to a new career path, reflecting on the difficulty and fear associated with such a transition.Markus Watson and Adam McHugh explore the prevalence of compassion fatigue among pastors and chaplains, acknowledging the personal toll it takes.The conversation touches on the struggle to redefine personal identity and faith when moving beyond traditional pastoral roles.Adam McHugh recounts his impactful experiences as a hospice chaplain and how they shaped his sense of self and faith.Adam and Markus delve into the "dark night of the soul," discussing the profound search for authenticity amidst life's challenges.Adam McHugh describes his transition from being a pastor and chaplain to a sommelier and wine tour guide, revealing a new chapter of his life.Adam McHugh articulates the struggle of identity and the transformation he underwent from Reverend to sommelier, framing it as an evolution of his humanity.Adam McHugh and Markus Watson emphasize the necessity of acknowledging the end of one life phase before embracing a new one, underscoring the importance of the internal transition process.Markus Watson adds insight into the stress associated with pastoral duties and the importance of embracing one's humanity over a clerical role.Adam McHugh advises pastors grappling with identity transitions to be patient and considerate of the internal processes involved.The discussion reveals Adam McHugh's tumultuous shift from a pastoral identity to embracing a new community and profession.Markus Watson speaks to the ongoing journey of transformation, underscoring the significance of patience and being shaped by God's hand.Adam McHugh advises embracing patience during the difficult process of identity transition, recognizing that it is a part of the continual path of transformation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Adam McHugh:Email – adammchugh@gmail.comInstagram - @adammchughwineInterVarsity Press bioBooks mentioned:Blood From a Stone, by Adam McHughPowers and Thrones, by Dan JonesManaging Transitions, by William BridgesRelated Episodes:Ep. 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael LindsayEp. 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!
When I walked the Camino de Santiago in 2022, it was something I had been longing to do for years. After a fairly traumatic experience at a church I'd been serving, the thought of just walking with Jesus for an extended time felt like exactly what I needed.I walked the Camino together with Jon Huckins, the founder and Director of Journey Home. In this episode, Jon unpacks why pilgrimmage is so meaningful and how it can help those of us in leadership to be our best selves for the sake of those we're leading, for the world, and for ourselves.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jon Huckins is founder and Director of Journey Home and is adjunct professor of New Testament at Point Loma Nazarene University.Jon Huckins describes the transition to the second half of life as a shift from doing to being and embracing one's identity as deeply loved by God.The Camino de Santiago pilgrimage is presented as a crucial tool for self-reflection, challenging external expectations, and engaging spiritual awakening.The transition from leading Global Immersion to starting Journey Home reflects Huckins' focus on facilitating societal and individual healing.Jon Huckins shares the profound influence the Camino pilgrimage has had on his ministry and his dedication to the work of peacemaking.The Camino serves as a means for intentional dislocation to face oneself and the authentic realitiies of life.Huckins comments on the distinct challenges faced by pastors and ministry leaders in an era where their conventional roles are questioned.Pilgrimage, according to Jon Huckins, is linked to the process of acknowledging and grieving loss, while also confronting the resistance to change in our ministries.Becoming second-half-of-life individuals allows for more resilience and a generous, open-hearted approach to leadership.Jon Huckins emphasizes the significance of spaces like the Camino for transformation, focusing on experiencing rather than decision-making.Jon Huckins highlights the transformative power of being fully present and releasing control, as experienced on the Camino.The mission of Journey Home aims to facilitate pilgrimages that act as vehicles for healing and development for leaders.Jon Huckins stresses the importance of pilgrimages like the Camino in aiding Christian leaders through their spiritual and emotional development.The challenges of ministry require spaces and practices that support healing and rejuvenation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:JourneyHome:Website – Journeyhome.infoInstagram - @journey_home_pilgrimagesBooks mentioned:Falling Upward, by Richard RohrLeadership on the Line, by Ronald HeifetzRelated episodes:Ep 163: You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve CarterEp 112: The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteChurch leadership InstituteGlobal ImmersionGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Download the FREE course, Becoming Leaders of Shalom.
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Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.In this episode, I'm speaking with Jeff Crosby about our longings. We discuss a Portuguese word—saudade—which, according to Jeff, is an untranslatable word that refers to a kind of deep, inner longing that every human feels.As leaders, it's so important to recognize our longings. And it's even more important to meet God in the midst of our longings.THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.Jeff Crosby discusses the concept of saudade as a deep inner longing and its resonance with spiritual longing and leadership.The episode delves into how individuals can recognize signals of disintegration in their lives and the need to center themselves, seeking support from spiritual friends, counselors, or spiritual directors.Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson discuss the different dimensions of saudade, involving personal relationships, meaningful work, and a sense of belonging, peace, and safety.The structure of the book, focusing on internal, external, and eternal longings, is highlighted, emphasizing the universal nature of yearning in leadership and personal development.Jeff discusses the value of saudade and the inner journey of affirming it and finding God's presence, especially in times of loss and change.In the context of a changing world and ministry, Jeff Crosby address the impact of loss and the way it affects individuals and their leadership roles.Jeff Crosby's book, The Language of the Soul, should be read slowly, allowing it to have a deep impact on the soul.Jeff and Markus discuss the potential negative effects of pushing down desires in leadership.Jeff Crosby's book is meant to tap into readers' own saudade and prompt reflection on their desires, inspired by the notion that spirituality revolves around handling the pain and hope brought by yearning.Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson emphasize the crucial role of of an undivided life in leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jeff Crosby:Evangelical Christian Publishers AssociationBooks mentioned:The Language of the Soul, by Jeff CrosbyHinge Moments, by D. Michael LindsayRelated Episodes:Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff CrosbyEpisode 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael LindsayDownload the FREE course, Becoming Leaders of Shalom.
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