Podcast appearances and mentions of steve corbett

Are our efforts to help the poor always helpful, or could they sometimes do more harm than good?Today, we'll explore how short-term missions can genuinely reflect the heart of Christ and bring lasting change, without unintentionally hurting the very people we aim to serve. Dr. Brian Fikkert joins us for that conversation.Dr. Brian Fikkert is a Professor of Economics and Community Development and the Founder and President of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He is also the co-author of the book, Helping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions.What Is Poverty—Really?Americans often define poverty materially—a lack of necessities, such as food, clean water, clothing, or shelter. As a result, short-term mission trips often center around distributing goods or completing construction projects. But when you ask materially poor individuals around the world what poverty means to them, they describe feelings of shame, helplessness, and a lack of dignity.This reveals a disconnect: while we view poverty as a lack of material possessions, those experiencing it often define it in relational, psychological, and spiritual terms. True poverty is brokenness in relationship—with God, self, others, and creation. That insight should transform how we approach short-term missions.Even the most well-intentioned trips can do harm. Why? Because those going on these trips may carry pride, believing they have the answers or that their culture holds superiority. In contrast, those in materially poor communities often struggle with inferiority. That combination can worsen the very sense of worthlessness we hope to alleviate.Rather than reinforcing this brokenness, we should pursue humility and listen more than we speak. The goal should not be to "fix" but to restore—to foster healthy relationships that reflect the image of God in all people.Presence Over ProjectsShort-term trips shouldn't be about what we accomplish but about who we become in relationship.If poverty is rooted in broken relationships, then the solution is to restore people to right relationships. And that doesn't come through handing out supplies or completing a checklist—it comes through deep, lasting community.That's why the local church is God's primary instrument of restoration. Mission teams should support these churches in a “backstage” role—serving quietly, praying faithfully, and encouraging leaders who are already embedded in the community. Sometimes the best thing you can do is babysit the pastor's children so he and his wife can enjoy a night out. That kind of support strengthens the long-term work far more than any single project ever could.The Sending Church's Role in Long-Term SuccessMany short-term trips blur the line between gospel and Western culture. But the gospel transcends culture—and so should we.Colossians 1 reminds us that Christ is the Creator and Sustainer of all things. That means He is already at work in every community, regardless of how impoverished it may seem. When mission teams enter a new culture, they should approach it reverently, as if stepping onto holy ground. There is beauty in every culture, and highlighting it can be healing. Simply asking, “What's good here?” affirms the image of God in others and begins the work of restoration.How can the sending church help ensure long-term success in missions?It's not about executing a flawless trip. It's about fostering enduring partnerships with local ministries. That includes showing up year after year, offering consistent prayer and support, and being safe spaces where local leaders can be authentic. Success is not measured by how much we build but by how deeply we walk with others through life.Fundraising as a Form of DiscipleshipShort-term mission fundraising can also be reframed. Young people often feel pressure to produce tangible results in exchange for financial support. But if the goal is to learn and grow, that's a worthy investment.Go as a learner and communicate that clearly to your supporters. When trips are part of a larger discipleship journey, they become valuable not only for those being served but also for the transformation of those who participate.Still, we must be wise stewards of God's resources. Many trips could be more effective if better embedded in a long-term process of learning and partnership.Short-term missions, when done right, can become powerful instruments of healing and restoration. But they must begin with a correct understanding of poverty and a humble willingness to be shaped by the journey.For churches preparing for trips this summer, Helping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions is more than a resource—it's a reorientation of purpose.To explore Dr. Fikkert's work or find resources and group studies designed for churches, visit Chalmers.org.On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:I just bought a new SUV and was offered bi-weekly payments. Would it be advantageous to opt for this option over monthly payments to minimize interest?My mother passed away in October of last year, and my sister and I are going to sell her house probably next month. My question is, in Texas, there's no inheritance tax. But is there an inheritance tax federally?We have some friends who asked us to give them a letter of giftedness to help them buy a home. They're asking for $17,000, for which they have $17,000 in cash that they will exchange for our check immediately. We don't understand why they can't just use their own cash, and we're not sure if helping them would cause difficulties for us or them.Resources Mentioned:Faithful Steward: FaithFi's New Quarterly MagazineThe Chalmers CenterHelping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions by Brian Fikkert and Steve Corbett with Katie CasselberryWhen Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor... and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertWisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on Money (Pre-Order)Look At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and AnxietyRich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich FoolFind a Certified Kingdom Advisor (CKA) or Certified Christian Financial Counselor (CertCFC)FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions most days at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on the Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. Visit our website at FaithFi.com where you can join the FaithFi Community and give as we expand our outreach.

John and Maria look ahead to Easter Sunday and remember the anniversary of the passing of Charles Colson. The highest court in the UK rules there are only two genders. And are there biblical guidelines for when we should we help the poor? Recommendations Death on a Friday Afternoon by Richard John Neuhaus The Biggest Story Bible Storybook By Kevin DeYoung Segment 1 - Holy Week and Remembering Chuck Colson Breakpoint: Jesus, the Last Adam Breakpoint: “I Thirst” Points Us to God's Scars There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Anthony Flew Breakpoint: How Johnny Hart Pointed to the Cross and Empty Tomb in the Funny Papers Johnny Hart's Good Friday Comic Strip Segment 2 - UK Supreme Court on Gender BBC: Supreme Court backs 'biological' definition of woman J.K. Rowling on X Segment 3 - Helping the Poor The World and Everything in It: April 15, 2025 National Review: The War on Poverty at 50 Recovery Ministries Try to Help Portland Get Clean by Maria Baer When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Poverty Cure | Session 1 | Michael Matheson Miller __________ Learn more about how ADF helps the Church be the Church at adflegal.org.  Register for the upcoming Identity Project webinar: Saying 'I Do' is Good for You at colsoncenter.org/marriage.

Doug Stuart welcomes back Dr. Cal Beisner, founder and national spokesman of the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation. Dr. Beisner discusses his book Prosperity and Poverty: The Compassionate Use of Resources in a World of Scarcity, originally published in the late 1980s. The conversation delves into how the principles outlined in the book remain relevant today, addressing issues such as the compassionate use of resources, economic justice, and the role of stewardship in a biblical context.Dr. Beisner provides a critique of Ron Sider's influential book Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, analyzing how economic principles have been interpreted within Christian circles. The episode explores the notion of social justice, differentiating between biblical and contemporary interpretations, and offers insights into effective responses to poverty through a Christian lens. Dr. Beisner's discussion is enriched by historical perspectives and his own experiences in the economics committee of the Coalition on Revival. He also offers suggestions for Christians and church leaders on how to actively address poverty through stewardship and charity, emphasizing the need for proper economic understanding aligned with biblical teachings.Listeners interested in learning more about Dr. Beisner's work can explore resources available through the Cornwall Alliance and are encouraged to read his detailed exploration of justice in both economic and social domains. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation about how Christians can navigate and influence discussions on wealth, poverty, and stewardship today.Additional Resources:Cornwall Alliance website (cornwallalliance.org)Social Justice vs. Biblical Justice available from Cornwall AllianceThe Book that Made Your World by Vishal MangalwadiWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Audio Production by Podsworth Media - https://podsworth.com ★ Support this podcast ★

307: How to Overcome 5 Nonprofit Communication Challenges (David Chatham)SUMMARYThis episode is brought to you by our friends at Armstrong McGuire & Associates. Check them out for your next career opportunity OR for help finding an interim executive or your next leader.Are you pouring your heart into your nonprofit's mission, yet struggling to get donors, partners, and the community to truly understand and support your work? In episode 307 of Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership, communication expert David Chatham shares how organizations can transform their storytelling by focusing on the “Four C's” of effective communication: clear, concise, compelling, and consistent messaging. He breaks down the five biggest communication challenges nonprofits face—from weak foundational messaging to the lack of a strategic marketing plan—and offers practical, actionable solutions to overcome them. Learn how to refine your mission statement, engage key stakeholders, and make the most of limited marketing budgets. Plus, discover why investing in strong communications isn't just about visibility—it's about strengthening donor engagement and long-term sustainability. If your nonprofit struggles to communicate its impact effectively, this episode will help you sharpen your strategy and amplify your voice.ABOUT DAVIDDavid has more than 25 years of marketing communications experience, with the last 10 focused on serving nonprofits through his work as senior client success strategist at Angel Oak Creative. He's grateful for the opportunity to work with organizations who are working each day to make the world a better place. David lives in Raleigh, N.C. with his wife of 20+ years, Lisa, and his mighty 7lb Yorkie, Max.EPISODE TOPICS & RESOURCESReady for your next leadership opportunity? Visit our partners at Armstrong McGuireWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert.Have you gotten Patton's book Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership: Seven Keys to Advancing Your Career in the Philanthropic Sector – Now available on AudibleDon't miss our weekly Thursday Leadership Lens for the latest on nonprofit leadership

THIS EPISODE BROUGHT TO YOU BY: You'll notice that there's no sponsor in this episode.  We'd love it if you'd consider supporting on Patreon.   PATREON - patreon.com/nodumbquestions  STUFF IN THIS EPISODE: An Early Edison Wax Cylinder Home Recording Over There Irish Eyes Swiper No Swiping - Dora the Explorer B.F. Skinner Pavlov's Dog Freedom app Definition of Virile HGModernism - You're Not Addicted to tiktoks… Algorithms are breaking how we think When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Percy Jackson (Lotus Casino Scene) The dark side of AI voice cloning - Jeff Geerling CONNECT WITH NO DUMB QUESTIONS: Support No Dumb Questions on Patreon if that sounds good to you Discuss this episode here NDQ Subreddit Our podcast YouTube channel Our website is nodumbquestions.fm No Dumb Questions Twitter Matt's Twitter Destin's Twitter SUBSCRIBE LINKS: Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe on Android OUR YOUTUBE CHANNELS ARE ALSO FUN: Matt's YouTube Channel (The Ten Minute Bible Hour) Destin's YouTube Channel (Smarter Every Day)

It certainly feels good to help others in need. We donate food, money, and even time to help those who are less fortunate than ourselves. And, oftentimes we assume that we have done what's best for them. But was it the best for them? Or, was it something that made us feel good in the moment? This is a tough question to ponder and our guest on this episode shares some incredible insights and wisdom to help us tackle it. Guest Info Kevin Ward is the Director of Youth, Young Adults, and Missions at Williamson's Chapel UMC in Mooresville, NC.  He is married to Amy Ward and has two children, Anna and James.  Service and mission is not only important to Kevin but to his whole family.     Kevin has worked in the United Methodist Church full-time or part-time for 27 years.  Throughout the last 27 years, connecting folks to healthy missions has been a passion of Kevins.  Having led or participated in over 40 week-long mission trips, Kevin has seen missions done in both healthy and unhealthy ways.  Reflecting on how mission trips and work have impacted both those serving and those being served has helped Kevin develop a healthier model of mission and service work.     Kevin believes that being involved in mission and service is something that every Christian is called to do on an ongoing basis.  Mission and service should move beyond charity and into something woven to our faith's fabric.  It may get messy, but in the mess is where we most often find Jesus.     Some suggested reading on the subject: "From Relief to Empowerment" by Laceye Warner and Gaston Warner "When Helping Hurts" by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert "Toxic Charity" by Robert Lupton "Get off Your Donkey!" By Reggie McNeal  

There is a controversial book When Helping Hurts: Alleviating Poverty Without Hurting the Poor... and Yourself. Written by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert, it argues that providing relief and rehabilitation for others can create an unhealthy dependency. I (Seth, here) think these claims are overblown. However, helping can sometimes do more harm than good; I agree with that premise. Jonathan and Seth discuss that. What happens when someone accuses us of hurting when we think we're helping? How do we feel? What do we do next? Who do we listen to? And, if our gifts are "for the common good" (1 Cor. 12:7), how do we ensure they're not self-serving? Thanks for listening! We hope you're settling into 2025 and your resolutions are going strong. If someone told you they thought you were hurting when you thought you were helping, we'd love to hear about it at: noexpertsallowed@gmail.com.

Get more notes at https://podcastnotes.org Top Takeaways Of The Week​Podcast Notes Book Collection: 2024 Edition (150+ books and counting…)​Business: When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert* One of the best books about philanthropy* Source: Brent Beshore's recommendation to Shane Parrish (PN)Economics: The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History by David Hacket Fischer* Explores the recurring cycles of price inflation throughout history, connecting economic trends to broader social and cultural changes* Source: Rudyard Lynch's recommendation to Tom Bilyeu (PN)Entrepreneurship: Mastery by Robert Greene* The value of mastering a skill set* Source: Sam Parr's recommendation to Andrew Wilkinson (PN)Investing: Poor Charlie's Almanack by Charlie Munger* Charlie Munger understood incentives and human psychology, but never used that knowledge to manipulate others* Source: Warren Buffett's recommendation to shareholders (PN)Productivity: The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting The Right Things Done by Peter Drucker, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, and Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen* Three books that embody the evolution of productivity* Source: Cal Newport recommendation to Chris Williamson (PN)Leadership: The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz* Great lessons about running a business and being a leader* Source: Marc Andreessen's recommendation to Rick Rubin (PN)Motivation: Michael Jordan: The Life by Roland Lazenby* The key insights into Michael Jordan's competitive spirit and how it made him the greatest basketball player of all time* Source: Ben Wilson book review (PN)Seeking Truth: The Beginning of Infinity and The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch* Naval Ravikant praises David's work, considering him the smartest human alive* Source: Naval Ravikant and Niklas Anzinger in discussion (PN)Psychology: …​​Naval Ravikant: How To Know What's True, Are We Destroying the Earth, Collectivism vs. Individualism, The Biggest Threats to Western Civilization, and More | Arjun Khemani Podcast ​​​Top 7 @naval quotes:​* “how to know what's true” edition: “Free markets are also a source of truth-seeking. For example, if I think Alphabet is a great stock and I buy it, but I turn out to be wrong, then the truth of the market will punish me as the feedback comes in, and I will lose my money.”* A group is not a truth-seeking entity: “Individuals can seek truth and then, based on that, they can choose to cooperate with others for limited periods of time to effectuate that truth or to have something come out of it.”* Are we running out of resources? Nope. “There's not a single resource you could point to that was a resource in the classic commodity sense that had any real value where we ran out in some harmful way.”* “If climate change is an issue—and it's hard to discuss because it's become so politicized—we can carbon capture out of the environment.”* “Whether it's nuclear fusion, rocketry, immortality, fighting viruses, or computing, almost all the innovation of the last 50 years has come in the unregulated industries.”* This is what AGI people get wrong: “There's no intelligence that can fundamentally understand something humans can't understand.”* Everybody wants the latest and greatest of everything: “Would you even go back 10 years and lose out on all the medicines, computing, knowledge, and travel we've invented? Absolutely not. I wouldn't even go back to the iPhone 14.”​Why You Have Advantages Over Elon and Bezos: ​* You probably have more time to go to the gym than they do* They have the same iPhone you do* They might eat slightly better food, but it's basically the same​Popper's concept of falsifiability is key: Statements that can't be disproven are meaningless, e.g., “we live in a simulation.”* The free will debate is similarly non-falsifiable and unproductive​There's no such thing as misinformation: “Your information is my misinformation; my information is your misinformation.”​​Explaining The Silk Road – History102 With Rudyard Lynch and Erik Torenberg ​​“Totalitarianism is a very feminine attempt to gain total order over your life. It's basically asking for daddy state to peg you harder.” – Rudyard Lynch* “The state is at best a dildo. It can never be a real penis, and thus it will never really satisfy you.” – Rudyard​What Woke Really Is: Wokeness is one of six different types of totalitarian movements in history and it perfectly fits the definition of totalitarianism​What Was the Silk Road: The Silk Road was an emergent phenomenon that developed over thousands of years due to discrete connections between the four major Eurasian civilizations, which were Europe, the Middle East (Islam), India, and China​The 3 Peaks of the Silk Road:​* First peak: Roman-Han Dynasty Golden Age* Second peak: The Islamic Golden Age* Third peak: The Mongol Empire​A paradox of the Silk Road: As the system integrates closer, it shatters because it integrates too much* The convergence of disease pools from around the world; in one instance, one-third of Eurasia's population was killed by a plague as a result of disease pools converging​Fracincense Was a Legit Luxury Item: The Silk Road was mostly luxury trading, except for the late medieval period in the Indian Ocean Silk Road* Arabia exported horses, frankincense, and myrrh* China was completely addicted to Arabian frankincense; this was one of the most significant trading nodes of the 11th century!​The Europeans Killed the Silk Road (That in the Mongols Killing Everyone): The Europeans entered the Indian Ocean trading system in the early 1500s by sailing around the bottom of Africa* First the Portuguese, then the Dutch* The Portuguese seized control of the entire Indian Ocean system in a ten-year period* The land routes of the Silk Road eventually died out because the oceanic trade routes were better​Mongolian Death Toll: The Mongols killed close to 100 million people in the pre-industrial world​​Dr. Bernardo Huberman: How to Use Curiosity & Focus to Create a Joyful & Meaningful Life | Huberman Lab​There are ways to know what's true and what's not true: “Reading about physics and understanding that there are laws that tell you how things work gave me a tremendous sense of order and power.” – BernardoThere are two things our brains weren't made by evolution to understand intuitively: relativity and quantum physicsBernardo explains the basics of relativity:* Einstein discovered that the speed of light is constant, no matter how fast you're moving relative to it* This makes simultaneity (two events happening at the same time) relative* For example, Andrew and Bernardo might agree it's 1:10 now, but if one of them moves very fast, their clock would show a different timeChaos Theory: Bernardo was one of the discoverers of chaos in several physical systems, a tiny difference in initial conditions can take you to very different outcomes* “In classical mechanics, chaos is all about sensitivity to initial conditions.” – Bernardo* Chaos exists in almost every physical system, even in neurons in the brain!Signup at Podcastnotes.org to unlock the full notes and Premium Newsletter Thank you for subscribing. 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Get more notes at https://podcastnotes.org Business* Active Listening by Carl R. Rogers* Key reading for getting better at negotiations* Source: Chris Voss's recommendation to Jordan B. Peterson (PN)* When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert* One of the best books about philanthropy* Source: Brent Beshore's recommendation to Shane Parrish (PN)* Hey, Whipple, Squeeze This by Luke Sullivan* A simple guide to creating great advertisements* Source: Chris Beresford-Hill and Tim Ferriss in discussion (PN)* Words That Work by Frank Luntz* Mastering the art of words* Source: Chris Beresford-Hill and Tim Ferriss in discussion (PN)Economics* The Creature From Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin* Analysis of bank bailouts* Source: Michael Saylor and Peter McCormack in discussion (PN)* Broken Money by Lyn Alden* “Money” is the biggest total addressable market in the world, and the money now is currently broken* Source: Dylan LeClair recommendation (PN)* The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History by David Hacket Fischer* Explores the recurring cycles of price inflation throughout history, connecting economic trends to broader social and cultural changes* Source: Rudyard Lynch's recommendation to Tom Bilyeu (PN)* Fiat Food: How Government, Industry, and Science Manufacture the Foods We Eat by Matthew Lysiak* Why inflation has destroyed our health and how Bitcoin may fix it* Source: Matthew Lysiak's appearance on We Study Billionaires (PN)Entrepreneurship* Zero to One by Peter Thiel* One of the most commonly recommended books for entrepreneurs* Source: Multiple* Only The Paranoid Survive by Andrew Grove* Must read for all entrepreneurs* Source: Morgan Housel and Chris Williamson in discussion (PN)* Million Dollar Weekend: The Surprisingly Simple Way to Launch a 7-Figure Business in 48 Hours by Noah Kagan* The idea of starting a business is often so overly romanticized that people never make the jump into entrepreneurship* Source: Noah Kagen's appearance on Deep Questions with Cal Newport (PN)* Mastery by Robert Greene* The value of mastering a skill set* Source: Sam Parr's recommendation to Andrew Wilkinson (PN)* Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott* How to overcome creative roadblocks* Source: Chris Beresford-Hill and Tim Ferriss in discussion (PN)* Chase, Chance, and Creativity by James Austin* Talks about how certain people attract luck and how luck can be created* Source: Mike Maples, Jr. recommendation to Lenny Rachitsky (PN)* Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Taleb* The impact of randomness and luck on success* Source: Cyrus Yari and Iman Olya book review (PN)* Skin in the Game by Nassim Taleb* “You cannot separate knowledge from contact with the ground. Actually, you cannot separate anything from contact with the ground.” – Nassim Taleb* Source: Cyrus Yari and Iman Olya book review (PN)* Andrew Carnegie by David Nasaw* “I got married at Carnegie Hall because of my love for Andrew Carnegie… He did a lot of bad things, but he was mostly amazing” – Sam Parr* Source: Sam Parr's recommendation to Andrew Wilkinson (PN)* Tycoon's War by Stephen Dando-Collins* Cornelius Vanderbilt: How his mind worked and why you wouldn't want to compete against him* Source: David Senra book review (PN)* Titan: The Life of John D. Rockefeller, Sr. by Ron Chernow* Most successful entrepreneurs can be honest family men, too* Source: Sam Parr's recommendation to Andrew Wilkinson (PN)* The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs: How To Be Insanely Great in Front of Any Audience by Carmine Gallo* Nobody had more compelling presentations than Steve Jobs* Source: David Senra book review (PN)* How To Be Rich by J. Paul Getty* “I would like to convince young businessmen that there are no surefire, quick, and easy formulas for success in business” – J. Paul Getty* Source: David Senra book review (PN)* Sam Walton: The Inside Story of America's Richest Man by Vance H. Trimble* Discover the rags-to-riches tale of billionaire Sam Walton, founder of the discount chain Wal-Mart and America's richest man, in this study of old-fashioned values like honesty and hard work* Source: David Senra book review (PN)Investing* What I Learned About Investing From Darwin by Pulak Prasad* How to beat the market, the biggest mistakes investors make, why history is more important than projections, and how natural selection applies to investing* Source: Kyle Grieve book review (PN)* The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham* Understanding the difference between price and value* Source: Bill Ackman's recommendation to Lex Fridman (PN)* The Algebra of Wealth by Scott Galloway* “America is a loving, generous place if you have money. It is a rapacious, violent place if you don't.” – Scott Galloway* Source: Scott Galloway's appearance on The Rich Roll Podcast (PN)* A Mathematician Plays The Stock Market by John Paulos* Source: John Paulos appearance on Infinite Loops with Jim O'Shaughnessy (PN)* Poor Charlie's Almanack by Charlie Munger* Charlie Munger understood incentives and human psychology, but never used that knowledge to manipulate others* Source: Warren Buffett's recommendation to shareholders (PN)* Think Twice: Harnessing the Power of Counterintuition by Michael J. Mauboussin* Making decisions is part of life, this is how you make better ones* Source: John Paulos and Jim O'Shaughnessy in discussion (PN)* Venture Deals: Be Smarter Than Your Lawyer and Venture Capitalist by Brad Feld and Jason Mendelson & Financial Intelligence: A Manager's Guide to Knowing What the Numbers Really Mean by Karen Berman and Joe Knight* Books that Ateet Ahluwalia gives people who join his firm* Source: Ateet Ahluwalia recommendations to Jim O'Shaughnessy (PN)* eBoys: The First Inside Account of Venture Capitalists at Work by Randall Stross* An intriguing insider's look at the rise of Silicon Valley through the lens of the pioneering venture capital firm Benchmark Capital* Source: Aarthi Ramamurthy and Sriram Krishnan in discussion (PN)* Flash Boys: A Wall Street Revolt by Michael Lewis* How the insiders got exposed* Source: Joseph Stiglitz and Tyler Cowen in discussion (PN)Productivity* Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness, and Productivity by Gloria Mark* Illustrates four myths about attention span* Source: Cal Newport book review (PN)* The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting The Right Things Done by Peter Drucker, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, and Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen* Three books that embody the evolution of productivity* Source: Cal Newport recommendation to Chris Williamson (PN)* Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman* How to embrace the fact that you can't do everything* Source: Cal Newport recommendation to Chris Williamson (PN)Leadership* The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz* Great lessons about running a business and being a leader* Source: Marc Andreessen's recommendation to Rick Rubin (PN)* Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman* Frequently recommended over and over again this year* Source: Bill Gurley, Michael Mauboussin, and Patrick O'Shaughnessy in discussion (PN)* Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card* Sci-fi novel but also a great way to study leadership* Source: Tim Ferriss recommendation to Chris Williamson (PN)* Art of War by Sun Tzu* Do not assume that your enemy thinks in a similar way that you do* Source: Source: Jocko Willink recommendation (PN)* Adventures of a Bystander by Peter Drucker* A captivating journey through his encounters with remarkable individuals who influenced his thinking and shaped the world of management* Source: Jim O'Shaughnessy's recommendation to Ateet Ahluwalia (PN)Motivation* The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho & Ask and It Is Given by Esther and Jerry Hicks* Helped Mike Posner on his spiritual journey* Source: Big Sean recommendations to Mike Poser (PN)* Driven From Within by Michael Jordan* Written during his career peak* Source: David Senra book review (PN)* Michael Jordan: The Life by Roland Lazenby* The key insights into Michael Jordan's competitive spirit and how it made him the greatest basketball player of all time* Source: Ben Wilson book review (PN)Deep Thinking* The Beginning of Infinity and The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch* Naval Ravikant praises David's work, considering him the smartest human alive* Source: Naval Ravikant and Niklas Anzinger in discussion (PN)* The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind and the Myth of the Self by Thomas Metzinger* “Life is not a mystery anymore” – Thomas Metzinger* Source: Thomas Metzinger's appearance on Making Sense with Sam Harris (PN)* Gold by Haleh Liza Gafori (a new translation of Rumi's poems)* Remedy for overthinking before bed* Source: Tim Ferriss recommendation to Chris Williamson (PN)Get the FULL List at Podcast Notes Thank you for subscribing. 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This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].

ROOT TO FLOURISH #15 Authentic Fasting with Rev. Laura Wiens | FASTING 03 Isaiah 58:1-11 What does it mean to fast in a way that truly honors God? This Sunday, we'll explore how authentic fasting includes fighting injustice, helping those in need, and living out God's love daily. Don't miss this opportunity to dive deeper into how true fasting can transform lives and lead to flourishing! --- For reflection & discussion: Isaiah 58 describes the kind of fasting God desires. What stands out to you from this passage? Does this text challenge your current understanding of fasting?  How have practices like prayer, worship, Sabbath keeping or fasting affected your relationship with God? How can these practices help you grow in authenticity? How do you see God calling you to "loose the chains of injustice" or "share your food with the hungry"? What are practical steps you can take to live this out?  Reflect on Dorothy Day's quote about giving up unnecessary things so that we can afford to help others. Is God inviting you to make some changes in your lifestyle? How can we ensure that our efforts to serve others come from a place of humility rather than superiority?  Have you ever noticed a type of ‘helping' that may actually hurt people?   In what ways can your home church or church community support one another in living out true fasting and caring for those in need? Isaiah 58 describes flourishing in the lives of people who live an authentic lifestyle as God's children.  Have you experienced any of this flourishing in your own life as you care for others in need? Suggested Resources: When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor..  and Yourself  by  Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert.   The Transforming Friendship: A Guide to Prayer written by James Houston

Today we sit down with Peter Greer, President and CEO of HOPE International, to unpack the revolutionary insights from his new book, "Lead with Prayer."

18th Century preacher John Wesley said, "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can."That's how Christians can respond to God's generous and faithful love. Specifically, Jesus called his followers to do good to the poor, and we'll talk about what that looks like for us.The Biblical Foundation for GivingGenerosity towards the needy is a central tenet of Christian living. Jesus emphasized the importance of loving our neighbors as ourselves, and one of the most tangible ways to do this is by helping those in need. Acts of kindness, empathy, and compassion are not just suggestions—they are essential expressions of our faith.In Luke 12:32-34, Jesus tells His disciples:“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”This passage clearly shows that God expects us to be generous givers. However, generosity doesn't stand in opposition to good stewardship. In fact, biblical stewardship involves surrendering everything to God, acknowledging that all we have belongs to Him.God calls us to be generous with the resources He has entrusted to us, and He promises to provide for our needs as we do so. John Wesley's encouragement to “do all the good we can by all the means we can” aligns perfectly with this biblical principle.Reflecting God's Character Through GivingC.S. Lewis once remarked, “I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare.” This highlights the idea that our commitment to generosity should be wholehearted. Opportunities to help the poor will always be available, as Deuteronomy 15:11 reminds us: “the poor will never cease to be in the land.” The Bible encourages us to take these opportunities, whether the needy are fellow believers, those outside the faith, or even our enemies.In biblical times, generosity was more than just giving money; it also meant showing mercy and compassion. This teaches us that practicing righteousness through generosity reflects God's character and His concern for all people. Proverbs 14:31 emphasizes this connection: “The one who oppresses a poor man insults his maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.”Helping the poor is a reflection of God's character. The Bible describes God as compassionate, gracious, and merciful and calls us to embody these attributes. Psalm 82:3-4 instructs us to "Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." Through our generosity, we demonstrate God's love and justice to the world.The Complexity of Poverty AlleviationHowever, helping the poor isn't always straightforward. A common dilemma is how to assist without enabling dependency or perpetuating poverty. The Chalmers Center points out that poverty is not just a lack of material resources; it's a complex issue involving broken relationships with God, self, others, and creation. Effective poverty alleviation must address these spiritual, relational, and material aspects.To avoid harmful giving, they recommend:Avoiding handouts that create dependency.Developing supportive relationships with those being helped.Being cautious about providing goods that can be sourced locally, which could undermine local businesses.Encouraging individuals to use their gifts and abilities.Focusing on long-term solutions rather than temporary fixes.Understanding the full complexity of poverty allows Christians to help in ways that promote dignity, sustainability, and genuine transformation.For those interested in learning more about how to alleviate poverty effectively, consider reading “When Helping Hurts: How To Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting The Poor…and Yourself” and exploring the work of The Chalmers Center. Their research provides valuable insights into this important issue.Ultimately, Christians give generously and compassionately to the poor because we love God, who first loved us. As Irish missionary Amy Carmichael wisely said, “You can give without loving, but you cannot love without giving.” Let our actions reflect this profound truth as we seek to embody God's love through our generosity.On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:I have a grandson who will be a senior this year and is going to an expensive aviation school for flight school. I would love to help him and pay for the whole thing if necessary, but I don't want just to give him the money. How do I balance helping him financially while also having him work for it and not creating dependency?I currently have a mortgage of about $20,000, and I want to move to a different location. Would it be a good idea for me to get another loan to purchase a new home, or would it be better to pay off the first mortgage before moving?I'm 29 and recently came to know Jesus with my wife. I've had a high income but wasted it in the past. Now, I want to set up retirement savings for my family. What would be a good route for me, like IRAs or 401(k)s? And can I have confidence in putting my money in a bank long-term?Resources Mentioned:The Chalmers CenterWhen Helping Hurts: How To Alleviate Poverty without Hurting the Poor…and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertRich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich FoolFind a Certified Kingdom Advisor (CKA) or Certified Christian Financial Counselor (CertCFC)FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions most days at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on the Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. Visit our website at FaithFi.com where you can join the FaithFi Community and give as we expand our outreach.

Ever wondered if your donations are actually making a difference? We've got news for you: Your next charitable gift could be 100 times more effective than your last. No, that's not a typo. 100 times. In this episode, we're peeling back the curtain on the world of effective giving. We're challenging common assumptions, diving into cutting-edge research, and handing you the keys to becoming a giving superhero.   Here's what you're going to discover: The shocking truth about charity effectiveness (and why some of your donations might be going to waste) Our fail-proof framework for choosing where to give (hint: it involves both your head and your heart) The "Good Soil" principle that could multiply your impact exponentially Why some billionaires say giving money away is harder than earning it (and what you can learn from them) The hidden dangers of generosity (and how to avoid them) Whether you're dropping a few bucks in the collection plate or planning to give away millions, this episode is your roadmap to maximizing every dollar you donate.  

When someone asks for help, many of us jump into “fix-it mode” to solve the problem. While this may seem like a necessary response, it can also harm both the help-giver and receiver. Join Micah and Christa as we discuss how to identify and fight fix-it mode! You also won't want to miss an extended interview with one of our Life Center friends.=============================SHOW NOTES=============================

We spend time in conversation with Bob Beggs, Executive Director of Good Works, Inc. Good Works is a Christian nonprofit organization working to transform lives by repairing homes for low-income families and sharing the hope that Bob, his colleagues, and teams of volunteers have found in Jesus Christ. We talk about the housing challenges that low-income families face in Chester County – and how Good Works aims to address those challenges by interweaving care for homes with care for people.OUR PARTNERSouthern Chester County Chamber of CommerceLINKSGood Works, Inc.goodworksinc.orgVolunteer for Good Works: goodworksinc.org/volunteerAdditional LinksGood Neighbors Home RepairHabitat for Humanity of Chester CountyAmerican Helicopter MuseumFreya SystemsOpen HearthPhoenixville Community Health FoundationALICE Report from the United Way of Chester CountyEpisode 41: Connecting People that Can Help with People that Need Help with Chris SaelloWhen Helping Hurts: : How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertNOTE: The Help Book mentioned in this episode is no longer being produced.TranscriptThe episode transcript will be posted on our website as soon as it is available.

When most of their children were grown and out of the house, God called Becky Spencer and her husband to care for children in need in Africa—over 9,000 miles away from their home in Kansas. Becky joins Sarah to share her testimony of following God's lead and being met by His faithfulness every step of the way. Her testimony of choosing to love before you feel loving, experiencing God's restorative forgiveness, and following His call to take compassionate action in ministry is an encouraging and provoking example.    Grand Staff Ministries  Child Sponsorship  Donate to Grand Staff Ministries  Grand Staff Thrift Boutique  When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor... or Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert  A Bruised Reed: Memoirs of African Orphans and Their Rescuers by Becky Spencer  When God Comes Down Like Rain, Overcoming Obstacles to Faith by Becky Spencer (coming soon)  The Zookeeper's Wife by Diane Ackerman  Primal: A Quest for the Lost Soul of Christianity by Mark Batterson  The Circle Maker by Mark Batterson    Are you prepared to make the case for life? Scott Klusendorf's newly-updated edition of The Case for Life provides the tools we need to protect preborn lives from the ideologies and arguments that deny their value—including the arguments that have overtaken the world in just the last few years. Request your copy this month with a gift of any amount at colsoncenter.org/swcaseforlife.  If you've listened for a while, you've probably heard me talk about the Colson Fellows program and what a transformational experience it has been in my life and the lives of many fellow believers. The Colson Fellows program was designed for men and women with full, busy lives. The program combines theological, spiritual, and worldview formation through a carefully curated combination of readings, daily devotions, live webinars, and monthly meetings with your peers. Interesting but wondering if you have the time or what it takes to complete the program? I assure you, it's well worth your investment and has been completed by many women in all stages and seasons of life. Interested in learning more? You can explore the program and submit an application at colsonfellows.org.  The Strong Women Podcast is a product of the Colson Center which equips Christians to live out their faith with clarity, confidence, and courage in this cultural moment. Through commentaries, podcasts, videos, and more, we help Christians better understand what's happening in the world, and champion what is true and good wherever God has called them.  Learn more about the Colson Center here: https://www.colsoncenter.org/   Visit our website and sign up for our email list so that you can stay up to date on what we are doing here and also receive our monthly journal: https://www.colsoncenter.org/strong-women Join Strong Women on Social Media:   https://www.facebook.com/StrongWomenCC  https://www.facebook.com/groups/strongwomencommunitycc/  https://www.instagram.com/strongwomencc/  https://linktr.ee/strongwomencc     

Today we are going to be talking with David Purdy, territory business manager in East of England for John Deere and Steve Corbett, trials manager at Agrii. With a backdrop of a very wet winter; where some fields need re drilling and in other fields, we need to establish a spring crop. But how do we approach soils this spring to maximise crop performance in this very challenging season.With relentless winter rain in many parts of the country following an already challenging autumn for many, winter-sown crops are going to need a lot of care and attention in the next few weeks to get them performing to their full potential in 2024, read more here.   Tony Smith is your host on Tramlines. Based in the South West and with a farming background, he graduated with a B.Sc (Hons) Agriculture. He worked in the farming industry for many years before developing his career as a presenter. Got a podcast idea or want to get involved? Email us on info@agrii.co.uk. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please leave us a review in the app!

We are back with the second half of our discussion with missionaries John & Raluca Tirla. In this episode we talk about what sustained zeal without burnout looks like, the truth about the effectiveness versus costs of short-term mission trips, and pursuing a purpose-driven life. We also get to hear some more testimonies of Afghan refugees coming to Christ.Books mentioned in this episode:When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett & Brian FikkertBoundaries by Henry Cloud & John TownsendDon't miss a single episode by subscribing to the podcast!Please leave us a rating or review if you liked this episode. Buy a mug!https://www.lovegodtee.com/shop/p/time-for-the-soul-mugFollow us on: https://www.timeforthesoul.co/https://www.youtube.com/@timeforthesoulpodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/timeforthesoulpodcast/Email us: contact@timeforthesoul.co

On this episode of “Cultivating Second Chair Leaders,” we look at the practice of  Identify Common Vision: Facilitate groups as they discover their common mission and vision. Our guest, Krista Young (@klyoung29), shares how regardless of cultural context, relationships and trust are the key elements to creating partnerships that move forward with a common vision. Resources mentioned in today's episode: “Life Together, The Classic Exploration of Christian Community” by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, 1954. “Kindling the Heart of the Christ-like Servant Leader” by Susan Steege, 2016.“When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself” by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert, 2014“Toxic Charity, How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help, And How to Reverse It”  by Robert D. Lupton, 2012Go to www.kindleservantleaders.org  and to learn more about the organization and support our work!Share this episode with a friend and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Connect with us! Instagram: @emilyphoenix or @kindle_social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KINDLEServantLeaders If you have a question to ask or story to share about one of this season's topics, we would love to hear from you. Send an email to emily@kindleservantsleaders.org and we will share it along the way! Download episode discussion guides at: https://www.kindleservantleaders.org/podcast/

In this episode, Ed Gillentine talks with Bob Collins form TrustBridge Global Foundation. Bob explains how TrustBridge helps break down barriers to global giving. He also discusses four major vehicles used to steward significant resources for charitable giving: Donor-Advised Funds, Private Foundations, Supporting Organizations, and Charitable Trusts.Show LinksEd Gillentine:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactTrustBridge Global Foundation:www.trustbridgeglobal.comLinkedInBooks:Journey To Impact by Ed GillentineFortune's Children by Arthur T. VanderbiltWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert

SPONSORED BY:   The Patrons who support the program at patreon.com/nodumbquestions   STUFF IN THIS EPISODE Africa Renewal Ministries When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Teddy Roosevelt - Man in the Arena Speech   CONNECT WITH NO DUMB QUESTIONS: Discuss this episode here NDQ Subreddit Our podcast YouTube channel Our website is nodumbquestions.fm No Dumb Questions Twitter Matt's Twitter Destin's Twitter SUBSCRIBE LINKS: Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe on Android OUR YOUTUBE CHANNELS ARE ALSO FUN: Matt's YouTube Channel Destin's YouTube Channel (Smarter Every Day) YOU MIGHT ALSO ENJOY MATT'S DAILY PODCAST: The Ten Minute Bible Hour Podcast

Brian joins the podcast, along with my wife Sam, to discuss Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert's book When Helping Hurts. We talk about how to determine the kind of help a person really needs, community development in other social contexts, and how to find a trustworthy partner in a third-world country.

In this episode of Glo, Blair Linne, Aixa de López, Sharon Dickens, and Soojin Park discuss how believers and church leaders can provide mercy ministry that is effective, biblical, loving, and sustainable. Drawing from the book, When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself, the hosts define "poverty" and talk about how to identify and prevent early mistakes in mercy ministry. You'll learn the importance of discipleship in caring for the poor, how to open the door to evangelistic conversations, caring for spiritual needs, and practical steps you can take to start serving the poor and marginalized in your local context.Episode time stamps:When helping hurts (0:00)Redefining how to serve the poor (3:20)Poverty in Guatemala (5:29)Mercy ministry: serve well and thoughtfully (8:09)Relative vs. absolute poverty (8:54)Restoring relationships (10:31)How to discern where to give your gifts and resources (12:32)Knowing the needs in your community (16:57)The importance of discipleship (18:22)Identifying early mistakes in mercy ministry (20:31)What does it look like to trade rather than give? (22:34)Relational poverty in the Korean American community (25:39)The story of the shoe maker (29:06)Recommended resources:When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert"Why It's Better to Trade Than to Give" by Justin Lonas"How Can We Include the Poor in the Conversation?" with Brian Fikkert and Robby Holt from TGC Q&A's Faith & Work series 

Episode Summary. This episode seeks to look at poverty through a biblical lens, understanding it's causes, misguided attempts to solve it, and especially what fulfilling our responsibility to care for the poor looks like.Resources Used for Today's PodcastWhen Helping Hurts, Steve Corbett, and Brian FikkertFor Further Prayerful Thought.How would you summarize God's plan for those on planet earth to flourish economically?How does understanding that poverty is caused by the breakdown of the four relationships of life make sense in what you observe about poverty?Of the six suggestions for how to properly care for the poor, which two stood out most to you? Are there any that you think God wants you to think more about?For the printed version of this message click here.For a summary of topics addressed by podcast series, click here.For FREE downloadable studies on men's issues click here.To make an online contribution to enable others to hear about the podcast: (Click link and scroll down to bottom left)

While giving food or money to the poor provides relief, this form of helping tends to be temporary and generates dependency. If we genuinely care for others, we want to help them create lasting changes in their lives by creating jobs and increasing economic opportunities. There are ways to help that can create sustainable economic growth, foster self-sufficiency, and help people end poverty in their community in the long term. Thomas Carlson, the founder of ECatalyst, joins us in this episode to talk about entrepreneurial ecosystems and how this helps poor communities create sustainable economic growth as a way to end poverty. Frustrated with the traditional charity model, Thomas invests in entrepreneurial ecosystems to generate permanent changes in people's lives and create a legacy of positive growth that lasts beyond their lifetime. He shares success stories as well as challenges to support their initiatives with their need for investment capital and skilled individuals to invest in Ethiopian entrepreneurs. Listen now and find out how we can help people see a pathway out of poverty and make a change.Key Points From This Episode: Thomas talks about a highlight from his week.Thomas shares life-transforming chapters from his life journey.Thomas discovers entrepreneurial ecosystems and commits to investing in them to create more impact in communities.Why is the entrepreneurial ecosystem a more effective model of helping people than the traditional mode of dole-out charity?How did ECatalyst come about and how does it work?Thomas shares stories of successful ventures that use the entrepreneurial ecosystem model.What are the future plans for ECatalysts?What is the greatest challenge that ECatalyst is facing right now?What is the greatest investment that Thomas has made? How can people support or get involved with Thomas's / ECatalysts' ventures?What's the number one thing that lifts people out of poverty?Thomas answers the mentor-minute questions.Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:ECatalystWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett, et.alToxic Charity by Robert LuptonThe Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution by Barry Asmus and Wayne Grudem The Kingdom Investor Podcast on LinkedInAbout Thomas CarlsonFor nearly 22 years, Thomas was a serial entrepreneur. He founded or co-founded six businesses in both the US and overseas in fields as diverse as construction, graphic design, and water bottling. He has an extensive cross-cultural background which includes living 10 years in the Middle East, traveling with significant cultural exposure in over 50 countries, and operating at different times in four other languages. He is fluent in Arabic. Thomas has also served as a professional educator, teaching recently as a Professor of Philosophy at CSU-Pueblo and PPCC. He has given guest lectures in many academic and professional contexts over the last 25 years on topics like business, startup principles, philosophy, theology, world religions, and cultural intelligence.

Dr. Amy Sherman directs the Center on Faith in Communities at the Sagamore Institute. She's the author of seven books, most recently, Agents of Flourishing: Pursuing Shalom in Every Corner of Society. Today, Amy shares how her diverse denominational background shaped her worldview, what she learned from health challenges that have affected her productiving, and what we need to know about shalom and human flourishing. The Kingdom of God that Jesus taught and brought has room for every human being to thrive with the Lord and we get to participate in it's unfolding. Amy's story reminds us how that works and encourages us to show up and pursue a life of flourishing. Listen to Amy's story now! Stories Amy shared: Working as a minister to ministries at the Sagamore Institute Why she wrote Agents of Flourishing Growing up near Buffalo, NY in a liberal Methodist church Learning about the social Gospel in her church growing up Finding Christ and being discipled by a young family in a charismatic church Going to Messiah College and discovering Christians like C.S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer Working at a think tank with George Waggle Deciding to get her PhD at University of Virginia Working at her church as director of ministries Experiencing chronic pain since a bad accident Health challenges that have limited her productivity Reading a devotional during a season struggling with lyme disease Reframing productivity as fruitfulness How flourishing and shalom are beyond circumstances Believing that God desires your flourishing Great quotes from Amy: Flourishing involves resting. The biblical concept of flourishing is not contingent on circumstances. Shalom is the world as God wants it to be. God desires your flourishing. Resources we mentioned: Amy's website at Sagamore Institute Agents of Flourishing: Pursuing Shalom in Every Corner of Society by Dr. Amy Sherman Kingdom Calling: Vocational Stewardship for the Common Good by Dr. Amy Sherman The God Who Is There by Francis Schaeffer When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor…and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Related episodes: Amber Cullum and the Journey to Grace Peter Englert and Digital Ministry and Discipleship Lori Ann Wood and Questions in the Silence The post Dr. Amy Sherman and The God of Shalom appeared first on Eric Nevins.

In this episode, you'll hear from Dr. Steve Winstead, the Lead Pastor at the International Evangelical Church in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. He and Ed discuss some of the things you need to consider when doing work internationally.Show LinksEd Gillentine:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactDr. Steve Winstead:www.iecinaddis.orgInstagram: @sswinsteadwww.winsteadfam.orgBooksJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineForeign fo Familiar by Sarah A. LanierWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert

If you are giving money or material resources to the poor, you are helping them overcome their problems in life, right? Perhaps, but maybe not, inevitably. Donating money, clothes, food and other materials does help the poor and needy but have we ever paused and asked them how our help truly affects them? For all we know, our efforts to help may have unintentionally done more harm than good. Our guest today shows us a different perspective on helping the poor. Dr. Brian Fikkert of the Chalmers Center challenges us to veer away from considering the poor as problems to solve and projects to fix and instead see the dignity in everyone and understand people's highly relational nature with fully integrated body and soul all reconciling to God. He dares us to ask questions that will help us understand how to extend genuine help and compassion that creates a long-lasting impact. Start listening now and learn better ways to help the poor. Key Points From This Episode: The highlight of Brian's weekBrian's backstoryHow does Brian define poverty and what are the proper strategies to alleviate it?Why people who want to alleviate poverty should understand that people are highly relational beings and body-soul integrated. The four intertwined relationships in a person's life - God, self, others and creation.Brian's advice for church planters in low-income communities.What is God's framework for change that ministries and community development workers must adopt to attain genuine human flourishing?Brian answers the mentor-minute questions.Tweetables:“We tend to define poverty as a lack of material things so as a result, our solutions for the poor tend towards material things.”“The human being isn't just a body and we're not just a body that holds a soul. We're highly integrated body-soul relational things, and that really shapes every intervention we should use with the poor.”“The foundation for helping the poor might be a shared meal once a week. Building a community is central to poverty alleviation.”Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:Send an email to Brian FikkertThe Chalmers CenterWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Becoming Whole: Why the Opposite of Poverty Isn't the American Dream by Brian Fikkert and Kelly KapicWalking with the Poor: Principles and Practices of Transformational Development by Bryant MyersYou're Only Human by Kelly KapicBooks by Timothy KellerAbout Dr. Brian Fikkert Dr. Brian Fikkert is a professor of economics and the founder and president of the Chalmers Center at Covenant College. Dr. Fikkert earned a Ph.D. in economics from Yale University, specializing in international economics and economic development. He has been a consultant to the World Bank; he is the author of numerous articles in both academic and popular journals and co-author of five books. Prior to coming to Covenant College, he was a professor at the University of Maryland—College Park and a research fellow at the Center for Institutional Reform and the Informal Sector.

Today Ed talks with Joe Bridges, Founder of The Forsaken Children. They discuss the work that's being done in Ethiopia to help at-risk children living in poverty on the streets. Show LinksEd Gillentine:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactThe Forsaken Children:theforsakenchildren.orgInstagram: @theforsakenchildrenmyminternational.orgBooksJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineThe Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark ComerWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert

Episode Summary. This episode seeks to examine what the church's commitment to the poor of our cities should look like. We then examine three serious flaws in the progressive view of social justice, an ideology which is captivating many young adults leading them to abandon Christianity. Finally, we examine how only the church can bring about the restoration require to solve the problems of our urban poor but raise the question, “Will middle class Christians care enough to do it?”   Questions for Guiding the Rising Generation to think about this material. What is the biblical case for Christians being very engaged with alleviating the poverty and other suffering in our cities?What would you say to a church leader who said Jesus' mission for us is to preach the gospel not care for the poor?What flaws of progressive ideology's approach to poverty most stood out to you?How would you make the case that the true causes of poverty—the breaking of harmony between us and ourselves, each other, God, and creation can best be achieved by the church? Recommended Resources When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert.Before Your Lose Your Faith, Edited by Ivan MesaFor the printed version of this message click here.For a summary of topics addressed by podcast series, click here.For FREE downloadable studies on men's issues click here.To make an online contribution to enable others to hear about the podcast: (Click link and scroll down to bottom left)

There is a crisis of homelessness happening across the country, and many Christians wonder what can and should be done. This is an important question because not all attempts at helping the homeless are equally beneficial nor are they equally consistent with a biblical worldview. Bryan Crain, Chief Operating Officer of the Orange County Rescue Mission, joins me to discuss what helping the homeless looks like from a biblical worldview perspective, how that compares to secular homeless program models (such as "housing first"), and takes a variety of questions about homelessness submitted by my podcast listeners online. (Bryan also happens to be my husband!) If you've ever wondered how to help the homeless you pass by on the streets, this is an episode not to miss.MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:Orange County Rescue Mission (OCRM): https://www.rescuemission.org/Video from OCRM graduation (includes several stories of graduates): https://www.rescuemission.org/video/2021-fall-graduation-orange-county-rescue-mission/Directory of Gospel Rescue Missions nationwide: https://www.citygatenetwork.org/agrm/Locate_a_Mission.aspDonate to OCRM: https://www.rescuemission.org/give-now/Recommended books: When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertToxic Charity by Robert Lupton

Lori Adams-Brown was a third culture kid, with US citizenship growing up in Venezuela with an international school experience. Bilingual in Spanish and English, she has learned four other languages and lived about a decade in Indonesia during a civil war and in Singapore raising her children. Now residing in California she continues to practice cultural humility, including on her podcast, A World of Difference.   Resources: When Helping Hurts: Alleviating Poverty Without Hurting the Poor.. . and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Rick Steves' Europe: https://www.ricksteves.com Crazy Rich Asians: https://www.warnerbros.com/movies/crazy-rich-asians    Connect with Lori: https://www.loriadamsbrown.com  https://www.linkedin.com/in/loriadamsbrown/ https://a-world-of-difference.captivate.fm   Donate to the podcast: https://ko-fi.com/introducingmepodcast  Want to share your story and be a guest? Email: introducingmepodcast@gmail.com    Find all the podcast social media and more on the website: https://www.introducingmepodcast.com    Artwork: instagram.com/vashaundesigns  Music/Editing: youtube.com/colemanrowlett

Can serving God be meaningful and life giving?  Or is it just another thing that we add to the list of "to do's"?  That's exactly what gets tackled in this week's episode.  Join Pastor Dan, Ryan, & Mike as they unpack what it might look like to serve God.Recommended Reading:- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert

Wendy Thiessen, the Canadian director of PiFò Haiti, has a passion for speaking truth and advocating for how we can help others without the unintended consequence of harming the families, economy, and community we are assisting. She is a very strong advocate for being relational and asking, “what can we do for you”, rather than being churches and individuals collecting clothing, shoes, and toys because it feels good and it's what we “think” they need. PiFò Haiti's programs are completely run by the community in which they serve. In response to the devastating 2010 earthquake in Haiti an organization known as Haiti Christian Schools (HCS) partnered together with 4 schools to provide affordable education to a small community on the island of La Gonâve, Haiti.In 2014, with the understanding that moving from emergency relief to recovery is important, the organization began to focus on creating longer-term, locally led initiatives.In 2020 HCS became PiFò Haiti. PiFò is a Haitian Créole word meaning “Stronger”. Thanks to God's amazing provision and the generosity of our supporters, the organization had become just that, stronger. This is also the year we began working with GCF, God was strengthening the organization both in Haiti and in North America.Our programs have grown beyond education. Our prayer since we began in 2011 has been a consistent food program at each of our partner schools. It is a very costly initiative, but 10 years later we are beyond excited, our prayers have been answered. Thanks to the support of Trinity Hope an organization based in the United States who use local labour and supplies to provide affordable food programs all over Haiti.We currently have food programs in all our schools, 5 teachers will be graduating from teachers college this year, we are able to provide food and medical funds for vulnerable community members, and we are strengthening an agriculture project that will provide jobs and food for a community in the mountains. None of this would be possible without God's grace and the strong relationships we have with the locals in the community. Resources:https://www.pifohaiti.org/https://gcfcanada.com/pifo-haiti/https://friendsgc.com/pifo-haiti/ Recommended books to read:"Slow Kingdom Coming, Practices for Doing Justice, Loving Mercy and WalkingHumbly in the World" by Kent Annan"When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty without Hurting the Poor...andYourself" by Steve Corbett, Brian Fikkert

Today's guest, Greg Spillyards, shares with Ed about his journey to impact in the commercial real estate space. He explains how he went from a transactional model of real estate to a more redemptive approach.Show LinksEd Gillentine:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineCushman & Wakefield/Commercial AdvisorsBooksToxic Charity: by Robert D. LuptonWhen Helping Hurts: by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertThe Divine Conspiracy: by Dallas Willard

In today's episode, Ed sits down with a panel to discuss America's involvement in Afghanistan as a case study on impact. Multiple impact principles from the book, Journey To Impact, are touched on in this conversation and I hope it gives you insight and wisdom that you can apply to your own impact journey.Show LinksEd Gillentine:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineBooksWhen Helping Hurts: by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert

Steve Corbett, author of When Helping Hurts, joins Matt and Alyson to talk about how some forms of charity can be toxic to the communities they are trying to serve. Together, they dive into conversation about how people can walk with communities in need and support them in a way that creates lasting change.

Richard Baxter is a dentist in Birmingham, Alabama who has channeled every part of his business towards bringing the gospel to unreached people groups around the world. Not only does Richard run his own dental practice, but he founded the Alabama Tongue Tie Center and authored the best selling book, Tongue Tied. He also teaches several courses for other practitioners all over the country on the treatment of tongue ties. Most significantly though, Richard channels the vast majority of the funds from his book and courses, totalling hundreds of thousands of dollars, directly to organizations targeting unreached people groups. His passion for the gospel is infectious and it is amazing to see how God has used him to fuel it's spread in hard-to-reach places. Richard is incredibly thoughtful in how he gives, and shares a wealth of resources for ways people can get involved in reaching unreached people groups with the gospel. We were so encouraged and challenged by Richard's story, you won't want to miss it!   QUOTES TO REMEMBER "Don't separate the reason for God's blessing from the purpose for God's blessing" "There is an ability to finish the Great Commission, as far as we understand it, for every tribe, nation, people, and language." "99% of Christian giving goes to where the gospel is already known ... less than 1% goes to the unreached." "If my middle school teacher knew I wrote a book, she'd probably die." "Unreached people groups are the best bang for your buck, the best eternal return on investment." LINKS FROM THE SHOW Shelby Pediatric Dentistry Alabama Tongue Tie Center Richard's book, Tongue Tied Beta Upsilon Chi (Brothers Under Christ) Radical by David Platt When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert mPower Approach (dental missions) End of the Spear (movie) Miracle at Tenwek (book about the life of Dr. Ernie Steury) Toward the Tithe and Beyond (the story of John Wesley, as told by John Piper) Don't Waste Your Life, by John Piper Crazy Love, by Francis Chan Money, Possessions, and Eternity, by Randy Alcorn Neverthirst (see our own interview with Matt Letourneau, CEO of Neverthirst) The Issachar Initiative Doulos Partners (see our interview with David Johnson, CEO of Doulos Partners) Reach the Rest Pray the Word Podcast by David Platt The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Forum BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Psalm 67:1-2 | The Purpose of God's Blessings 1 May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face shine on us— 2 so that your ways may be known on earth, your salvation among all nations. Matt 6:19-21 | Do Not Store Up Treasures on Earth 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! If you have a thought about something you heard, or a story to share, please reach out! You can leave a comment below or reach out on our contact page.

An interview about service and how we can learn to serve better with Dave Malutinok (the President of HOPE Worldwide), Naomi Stephen (US Programs Coordinator at HOPE Worldwide) and Lola Oke (member of the National Youth Advisory Council). Talking the ethics of volunteering, mutual respect, and the importance of service as a Christian. Stay tuned for part 2, the panel discussion with the Spacemakers! RESOURCES--- LEARN MORE ABOUT HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://www.hopeww.org VOLUNTEER WITH HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://www.hopeww.org/volunteer START A PROGRAM AT YOUR UNIVERSITY: https://www.hopeww.org/campusclubs DONATE TO HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://hopeww.kindful.com BOOKS: Toxic Charity by Robert D. Lupton When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert The Broken Ladder by Keith Payne The Hole in Our Gospel by Richard Stearns Reciprocal Missions by DJ Schuetze and Phil Steiner Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claiborne Slow Kingdom Coming by Kent Annan Walking with the Poor by Bryant Meyers Jesus and the Poor by Steve Kinnard Scandalous Obligation: Rethinking Christian Responsibility by Eric R. Severson Charity Detox by Robert D Lupton WEBSITES/ONLINE RESOURCES: "Helping, Fixing, or Serving?" Article: https://movementum.co.uk/journal/2019/12/6/helping-fixing-or-serving Center for Servant Leadership: https://www.greenleaf.org US Volunteer Training Event: What To Do When Someone Asks You for Money: https://www.hopeww.org/lazarusmyneighbor From development to dignity: a profound challenge for international cooperation: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/development-dignity-profound-challenge-international-cooperation/

A discussion between the Spacemakers and our friends at Hope Worldwide about service and how we can do it in a more humble, respectful and beneficial way. Make sure you listen to part 1 first! RESOURCES --- LEARN MORE ABOUT HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://www.hopeww.org VOLUNTEER WITH HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://www.hopeww.org/volunteer START A PROGRAM AT YOUR UNIVERSITY: https://www.hopeww.org/campusclubs DONATE TO HOPE WORLDWIDE: https://hopeww.kindful.com BOOKS: Toxic Charity by Robert D. Lupton When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert The Broken Ladder by Keith Payne The Hole in Our Gospel by Richard Stearns Reciprocal Missions by DJ Schuetze and Phil Steiner Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claiborne Slow Kingdom Coming by Kent Annan Walking with the Poor by Bryant Meyers Jesus and the Poor by Steve Kinnard Scandalous Obligation: Rethinking Christian Responsibility by Eric R. Severson Charity Detox by Robert D Lupton WEBSITES/ONLINE RESOURCES: "Helping, Fixing, or Serving?" Article: https://movementum.co.uk/journal/2019/12/6/helping-fixing-or-serving Center for Servant Leadership: https://www.greenleaf.org US Volunteer Training Event: What To Do When Someone Asks You for Money: https://www.hopeww.org/lazarusmyneighbor From development to dignity: a profound challenge for international cooperation: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/development-dignity-profound-challenge-international-cooperation/

An enriching conversation with Steve Corbett, co-author of When Helping Hurts. Listen to Mr. Corbett share how we can fall in love with the Church while serving, making sure short-term teams don't do long-term hurt and to help teams focus on the real work that surfaces back at the home base. The importance to allow God to use us as vessels for kingdom work.

In this episode, we're joined by Matt Letourneau, CEO of Neverthirst. It's estimated that 785 million people still lack access to clean and safe water. Neverthirst partners with local indigenous pastors as well as established local well drilling teams to bring clean water and the gospel to some of the poorest unreached people groups in the world. For those of us seeking to manage God's wealth wisely, Matt shares on topics like accountability for nonprofits, balancing addressing physical and spiritual needs, and sharing a vision with others. He also explains why addressing clean water is unique strategy with ripple effects through entire communities in areas like healthcare, gender equality, and education. He also shares several inspiring stories of radical givers with a deep passion for serving the poor and unreached. Listen now to hear our conversation with Matt! QUOTES TO REMEMBER  "We are both physical beings and spiritual beings." "If you look at Jesus' ministry, he met physical needs. He cared about the physical needs of the people that were put in his path." "Every single person that they're around now has gotten the bug for being generous and they're the most joyful people I've ever been around. LINKS FROM THE SHOW Sponsor a project with Neverthirst Radical by pastor and author David Platt The Ultimate Disconnect - The sermon by David Platt at The Church at Brook Hills that launched the foundation of Neverthirst When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert Charity Navigator Guidestar ROI Ministry Generous Giving's annual Celebration of Generosity Conference WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! If you have a thought about something you heard, or a story to share, please reach out! Find us on instagram or reach out on our contact page.

Today we are revisiting David's teaching from our Wednesday of Worship event on March 10. The title is "Life and Death". It is one of the greatest lies from Hell and the world that says that true life is found throwing off rules and parents and teachers and living for yourself and the moment. David also includes his own personal experiences as a teen struggling through this lie. Resources referenced: When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fickert "Three Simple Rules Poor Teens Should Follow to Join the Middle Class" By Ron Haskins of the Brookings Institute.

They're popular, they're challenging and enlightening...but are they a good idea? Short-term mission trips have become a key strategy for churches to engage in missions, and to engage thier people in missions. Yet sometimes we do not stop to ask ourselves why we're doing them and if we are doing them the right way. Fraser Scott and Bright Hope World's Southeast Asia Partnership Facilitator Emma Stokes take a long hard look at short-term mission trips and ask why we're doing them, whether they are giving us the results we're wanting and - most importantly - who we're actually doing them for. They discuss some of the key considerations in doing such trips well, and some of the key pitfalls to avoid. Resources discussed in the podcast include: When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert (Amazon) Toxic Charity: How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help, And How to Reverse It by Robert D Lupton (Amazon) The Next Mile: Short-Term Missions for the Long Haul by Brian J Heerwagen (Amazon) Send feedback or questions to podcast@brighthopeworld.com.

If anyone wants to achieve a high level of success in business, athletics, or any other area in life, one thing they'll need to prioritize is continuous improvement. The same holds true if you want to be successful in your impact efforts. In this episode Ed will talk about this and he calls it relentless forward progress. He breaks it down and then gives you 5 steps you can use in the process of pursuing relentless forward progress on your own journey to impact.Show Links:EdGillentine.comInstagram: @journey.to.impactJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertAfrican Friends and Money Matters by David E. MaranzWRAPS For Girls

Have you considered the possibility that while trying to have a positive impact, you may unintentionally be doing harm in the process? Ed is going to talk about that today and also touch on selflessness and multi-generational impact.Show Links:EdGillentine.comJourney To Impact by Ed GillentineWhen Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian FikkertToxic Charity by Robert D. Lupton

On today's episode of Building Birmingham Together we're talking with Madison Kerns Conrad. Madison is Director of Operations for Urban Avenues, a Birmingham nonprofit designed to unite disconnected communities by inspiring people to be curious and make beautiful things together. In 2020, Madison led Urban Avenues' CareHealth initiative — a response to the COVID crisis. The initiative served two communities that were greatly impacted by COVID: healthcare workers and local restaurants. Raising over $80,000 from the community, Madison and the CareHealth team were able to pour those funds into the restaurant community and serve over 8,000 meals to healthcare teams. Talk about Building Birmingham Together! You can contact Madison at madison@urbanavenues.com Follow Madison and Urban Avenues: Instagram: @mad.rads @urban_avenues @five_loaves @carehealthcommunity Facebook: @urbanavenuesbham Website: Urbanavenues.com Carehealthcommunity.com Other Mentions: Madison was honored as a "Hero" with The Vulcan Community Awards! Read more at VisitVulcan.com Madison's Recommendations: Walking with the Poor by Bryant L. Myers When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker This Episode is Sponsored by Forge Forge is a thriving coworking space in the heart of downtown Birmingham at The Pizitz Building. If you are tired of working from home and are in need of a place to be productive as well as be surrounded by a community of entrepreneurs, schedule your tour of Forge today! Forge Availabilities: Open seating coworking, Dedicated Desk, Private Office, Conference Room Rentals, Event Space, Business Mailing Address Workatforge.com

When helping hurts…A powerful phrase that will lead this week's worldview discussion with co-author of When Helping Hurts, Steve Corbett.With more than 400,000 copies in print, When Helping Hurts is a paradigm-forming contemporary classic on the subject of poverty alleviation.Learn more about the book here!

Pastor Kory left the microphones unattended, so Holly and Pastor Abby have taken over this week's conversation! In today's episode, we take a deeper dive into 1 Corinthians 13, the passage from Sunday's message, and talk about some of the attributes of love that stood out to us...and also some of our pet peeves. Got questions or feedback? E-mail podcast@waiteparkchurch.org. Resources: When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert: https://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802409989 “Growing the Right Way” Sermon by Pastor Kory (11/8/2020): https://www.waiteparkchurch.org/learninghowtolove