Podcast appearances and mentions of reed fish

This month we are hitting the ground running  with an incredible episode. We are doing our first ever podcast crossover. We are joined this week by Reed Fish and Mark Corcoran from Upmarket Podcast.  If... The post Episode 171 – Podcast Crossover – Scaling Your Real Estate Photography Business with Reed Fish and Mark Corcoran from The Upmarket Podcast first appeared on Shooting Spaces.

This weeks episode featured Reed Fish of Upmarket Media. Reed will be an upcoming presenter at the 2022 PMRE Conference and we wanted to chat with him a bit about his business and his upcoming... The post Episode 159 – Reed Fish with Upmarket Media and Upmarket Podcast first appeared on Shooting Spaces.

We're back! Emily Staalberg is co-owner of Steel Acres, a family farm in Ojai CA. In this episode we finally get an answer as to why there is never a shortage of beets in your farm share or CSA. Emily also gives us the low down on the ups and downs of life on the farm (yes, one bunny can devour 300 cauliflower plants in a single night!) But no matter the hardships (and rogue bunnies) that the farm faces, Emily is never deterred from her mission tend the land and sustainably produce delicious and nutritious food for the community. This is such a fun and inspiring episode! Follow Emily on Instagram and check out the Steel Acres website. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Special appearance by a former WWF Superstar!

Reed Fish and his wife Liz took off a year to travel the world, collecting memories like FDR collected stamps. After his return to California, he set up shop in Ojai as a photographer and videographer, raising his family and working hard. Before those adventures, he made a well-received film called "I am Reed Fish," which came out in 2007 and starred Jay Baruchel, Alexis Bledel, Schuyler Fisk and Katey Sagal. The whole experience was great fun, including the premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival. Very loosely based on Reed's life story, it involves a story of a young man who is torn between duty and imagining a different future for himself. We talk about the trials and travails of the film industry. Fish is also a podcaster, with his "Workin' It" podcast available wherever you get them. We talk about a few of his guests, retired pro tennis player Lester Cook, professional poker player Jeremy Kottler, and Mikael Jurgensen, keyboardist of Wilco - exploring the ways and means by which people make a living. We talk about how difficult it is to get the signal heard through the noise, especially with Spotify dropping hundreds of millions on podcasts. "We're still at a stage with podcasts where it's the one thing that's growing," Reed says, "30-40 percent of people haven't even listened to a podcast." We did not talk about Errol Flynn's steelhead fishing adventures in Ojai, the writings of George Orwell or the docuseries "The Last Dance."

Jeremy Kottler has won over $1.6 million playing poker professionally. In our chat, Jeremy gives insights into the technique of how pros approach the game and lets us in on the fact that he doesn't always use math to guide his decisions at the poker table. We also get into the highs and lows of being a professional gambler and learn how taking a poker sabbatical may have left him playing the best poker of his career. Even if you don't play poker, you will appreciate Jeremy's thoughtful approach and his candid retelling of some the struggles that brought him to this stage of career and life. Follow Jeremy on Instagram and see pictures of his dog, but not poker. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Ignacio Anzaldo sold Tesla cars for over 2 years. He still drives one of the cars and in this episode, gets back to his roots by letting Reed take a test drive. Ignacio also clues us in to how he knows if you're a serious buyer just by how you walk up to the dealership and we learn how he was able to convince adversarial clients to eventually buy a $100,000 car. He also tells us how he was able to blow past his 25 cars per month sales goal and relates how being the child of immigrants shaped his career path. Listen to this enlightening conversation and find out if self-professed anti-Tesla guy Reed, finally has his mind changed about the cars! Follow Ignacio's Tesla-themed account on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

In addition to being a painter and illustrator, Vyana Novus is a color strategist. You may ask, "What is a color strategist?" We had the same question! Listen and find out what exactly a color strategist is and how Vyana helps people use color to connect with their creative selves and with each other. We also ponder some updates to the colors of the rainbow flag and near the end of our conversation, Vyana lays out a some truly inspirational insights into how thinking more deeply about color can enhance our lives. This a wonderful conversation that really got us looking at things in new ways! Follow Vyana on Instagram at check out vyanama.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

SPECIAL NOTE: At the end of this episode, hear the brand-new, unreleased, Wilco song, White Wooden Cross. Mikael Jorgensen is the keyboardist for Wilco, one of the most celebrated indie rock bands of the last 25 years. In our conversation we find out if a degree from DeVry University is essential to being in the band and try to get to the bottom of just what's up with the water pressure at the Wilco Loft. We also chat about the logistics of being on tour and how the band never takes their fans for granted. Getting a behind-the-scenes peek at this amazing band was such a treat. Wilco's new album, Ode to Joy is out on October 4th. Follow Mikael on Twitter and Instagram. Check out mikaeljorgensen.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Ross Venokur has directed animated feature films such as A.C.O.R.N.S: Operation Crackdown and the soon to be released Charming, starring Demi Lovato, Sia and John Cleese. He’s currently heavily into production on his third animated feature, The Silk Road Rally. In our conversation we get into why Ross's lack of drawing skill has not hindered his career and why working in the indie space is preferable to big studio productions. This is a fun and enlightening conversation with a truly talented writer and director! Follow Ross on Twitter at check out edhanimation.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Cassandra C. Jones is a remix artist using digital photography to create large-scale collage works. In our conversation, we learn exactly what a "remix artist" is and how she goes about the process of making her giant, gorgeous prints. We also talk about the delicate balancing act of raising kids in an environment where both parents are in creative fields. Plus, we learn that Cassandra is afraid of bears. Really, seriously, check out Cassandra's work at her website and be sure follow her on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. Photo of Cassandra by Marc Alt. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

This is is one of our favorite episodes ever and we're thrilled that it's our SEASON 2 PREMIERE! Lester Cook was a professional tennis player for 6 years. He won 8 professional singles titles and 18 doubles titles, reaching a career high ranking of No. 191 in singles and No. 175 in doubles. He competed in all 4 grand slams as a pro and participated in 3 World Team Tennis seasons. In our talk, we chat about what life was like on the margins of the ATP tour and how Lester came to have such a great perspective on all that he did (and did not) accomplish in tennis.  This was such a funny and interesting conversation about one of the lesser known sides of professional sports! Check out Lester's current career at LesterCookRealEstate.com and be sure follow him on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Sophie Ward walked the runway in fashion capitals around the world for 8 years and appeared in countless magazines, including Vogue and Harper's Bazaar. In our conversation, Sophie tells us that while modeling was her ticket out of Perth, Australia, it also led to an eating disorder and a myriad of self-esteem issues. She also opens up about working in the shadow of her supermodel sister and how her rocky time in modeling ultimately led her to the centered, beautiful and positive life she lives today. Buy Sophie's books at theloveriver.com and be sure follow her on Instagram. Her wonderful post-partum food delivery service is at milkandseed.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. Thank you for listening to the first season of Workin' It Pod!! We'll be back on Labor Day 2019 with a new season! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

PEOPLE! All your tomato questions get answered in the episode! Scott Daigre is the producer behind Tomatomania, the world's largest tomato seedling sale. In this fun and fast-moving conversation, Scott schools Reed on the basics to his method of growing amazing-tasting and bountiful tomatoes in your home garden. He also gives some history into how Tomatomania has grown from a passion project into a thriving business. Plus, we chat a bit about how growing tomatoes brings people together and helps us create a sense of history and community. So much tomato talk in this episode!!! Buy Scott's excellent Tomatomania book!!! Give Guy Clark's classic song Homegrown Tomatoes a listen. Get even more tomato talk at tomatomania.com and be sure follow the Tomatomania Instagram and Facebook feeds. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Jim Shelton served active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps for six years, eventually rising to the rank of Captain. In our talk, we explore the sometimes monotonous daily routine of being a deployed marine and learn some surprising truths about how the military actually operates day-to-day . We also hear his first-hand account of how the simple act of being ready can lead to tragedy. Follow @jim_shelton_ojai on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter.  Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Meggie Hawthorne was a crew member at Trader Joes for for seven years and a Sign Artist for three of those. In our talk we learn about the daily grind of making sure all the shelf signs in the store are correct and how you have to plan months ahead of time for "pumpkin season." In the 2nd half of the show we really get down to the honest truth about what happens in the store behind the scenes and try to answer the question of why everyone at Trader Joe's seems so happy. It might not be for the reasons you think... Follow @meggiehawthorne on Instagram and if you're in Ventura County, CA and looking for a house, check her out in her new real estate career via her website, realestatemadeclear.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter.  Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

David Taylor has a 10-year history with Improvisation, studying at the American Acadamey of Dramatic Arts in New York and taking improv classes from Gary Austin, the founder of the Groundlings. In our conversation, David explains why he believes that improv can fundamentally change how we live our lives and how anyone, not just actors, can benefit from improvisation training. Also, Reed learns why trying to improv swimming on stage is probably not a good idea! Follow @davidnelsontaylor on Instagram and visit his website, davidnelsontaylor.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Liz Fish did a stint as a Kiva Media Fellow in 2013, traveling to Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan to document success stories of entrepreneurs receiving loans from Kiva, the micro-finance non-profit. In our fun (and emotional) conversation, Liz lets us in on the secret of what gift to bring Ukrainian farmers to immediately get in their good graces. She also gives the inside scoop on what it's like to be married to Reed. Uh-oh. This episode features laughs, tears and, hopefully, some inspiration. See the video Liz produced in Kyrgyzstan about Meerim and read her story on Medium. Make a loan to an entrepreneur in need today at kiva.org. It’s fun and you can get paid back! Follow @lizfish & @twofishdigital on Instagram and check out twofishdigital.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Adam and Sonia Gallegos needed a change. They sold their thriving real estate business, moved across the country and, taking a very big leap of faith, opened Revel, a kombucha bar in Ojai CA two and a half years ago. Revel turned out to be an immediate runaway success, converting kombucha skeptics, like Reed, into believers along the way. In our conversation, we also get to the bottom of what exactly kombucha is and how Adam's background in brewing beer helped make Revel a success. Follow @revelkombuchabar on Instagram and check out their revel365.com. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Also, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Rachel Garahan is a Brand Director working with high-profile clients in the wellness and lifestyle sectors, such as Yoga Journal, Dr. Andrew Weil and Bobby Berk (!!!!!!) from Queer Eye. We talk about the skill set required to for her job and why authenticity is important when thinking about how you brand yourself or your company. We also try to get Rachel to re-brand the Workin' Podcast. Is it an offer she can refuse? Listen and find out! Rachel is also a photographer, writer, graphic designer and author of the book A Beauty Collected. Hit Rachel up on Instagram or her website. Please also visit the greatest living human, Bobby Berk, at his new website that features Rachel's design work. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Frederick Janka has been curating contemporary art in Mexico and the U.S. for over 15 years. In our conversation he politely brushes aside the notion that everyone is curator and tells us why he thinks the more typical role curators play is vitally important. HINT: It has to do with supporting artists. He also tells us how being a curator is actually like being a producer and explains that in many cases, capitalism has co-opted curation. Hit Frederick up on Instagram. Check out the wonderful Carolyn Glasoe Bailey Foundation via Instagram or Facebook. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Bob Huey has been in the wine business for 14 years and has tasted thousands and thousands of wines. In our conversation, he lets us in on the single biggest factor he looks for when buying a wine and explains why Cherry Coke influences the flavors of so much American wine. Plus, he tells us the thoroughly depressing reason why he likes to stock European wines in his shop. Also, we have an EXTRA SPECIAL BONUS SEGMENT where Bob gives us the low-down on just what exactly goes into the vast majority of California wine. Spoiler Alert: It's not good stuff. To check out Bob's amazing wine shop, visit in person or go now to pointdechene.com. Also, hit them up on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Illustrator Daren Magee is better known to his thousands of fans as Real Fun, Wow. Daren is talented, prolific and has a singular, immediately recognizable aesthetic. We sit down, stretch out our legs and chat about ego, obsessiveness, simplicity and why having time constraints just might be a good thing. Also, we, of course, talk about ayahuasca. You know you want to see Daren's work, so go now to realfunwow.com and of course, follow him on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Since we mentioned it in our chat, you might want to watch The Five Obstructions for FREE on Kanopy. Do you know Kanopy? It's a great free streaming service that you can get with your library card (provided your library is a part of the Kanopy network.) It's great! Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Stephanie Fish was Princess Tiana at Disneyland for four years. In our conversation she tells us how her insatiable love of Disneyland was not diminished by the grind of doing endless princess meet-and-greets. Stephanie also opens up about how portraying Disney's first Black princess was literally a dream come true. Stephanie was cast as Princess Tiana even before the movie Princess and the Frog was released in 2009. Plus, we get to the bottom of whether there are secret tunnels under Disneyland and find out why so many Disneyland princesses get crabs. Follow Stephanie's current adventures at Disneyland via her Ex Princess Diaries YouTube channel and follow her on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. **Note, due to the princess straight talk, discussion of skeevy dudes and crabs, not recommended for the youngest listeners. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Rachel Graves, along with her husband, Mike, co-founded Summer Camp in 2014. Rachel illuminates the process of how a small-town gift and framing shop amassed tens of thousands of social media followers and why that's less meaningful than you might think. We also chat about what it means to have something for everyone and why, for Rachel, timeless retail is the best retail. Buy stuff at shopsummercamp.com and follow them on Instagram. Reed Fish is @tallreedfish on Instagram and @reedfish on Twitter. Follow Workin' It wherever you get your social media: @workinitpod on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. While you're at it, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, what the hell, might as well set your homepage to workinitpod.com, too. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Workin' It. Not all jobs suck. A new podcast from Reed Fish. Episodes every Monday to start your work week right. Series debuts on Tax Day, April 15th 2019. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/reed-fish/message

Holly Gennaro McClane: portrayed in Die Hard by Bonnie Bedelia, John McClane's estranged wife reflects the conflicts and contradictions facing women at the time the film was made – and even still today. She's a working woman, a mother, and a wife. But there’s no consensus on whether she’s also a damsel in distress, or if she – like so many other conventions that Die Hard challenges – goes beyond your typical 80s action movie female lead. Let us know what you think! Drop us a line at diehardwithapodcast@gmail.com, or visit our site at www.diehardwithapodcast.com   Links How Did This Get Made? mini-sode 199.5 (Paul's recommendation is at 33:29) The Q&A Podcast with Jeb Stuart and Stephen E. de Souza, hosted by Jeff Goldsmith Die Hard: The Ultimate Visual History, by James Mottram and David S Cohen John McTiernan: The Rise and Fall of an Action Movie Icon, by Larry Taylor   Source Links Another Angry Woman, Making fists with your toes: Towards a feminist analysis of Die Hard Deep Focus Review, The Definitives: Die Hard Empire Magazine, October 2018 issue, Tower of Terror (p. 98) Mental Floss, 19 Things to Look for the Next Time You Watch Die Hard MovieTime Guru, Die Hard: First Impressions Last Script Secrets, Die Hard analysis The Guardian, Die Hard at 30: how it remains the quintessential American action movie   Guests Reed Fish Ed Grabionowski Sasha Perl-Raver Adam Sternbergh Katie Walsh Scott Wampler   Get In Touch Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram Patreon   Full Episode Transcript Welcome to the podcast, pal. My name is Simone Chavoor, and thank you for joining me for Die Hard With a Podcast! The show that examines the best American action movie of all time: Die Hard. Welcome to the fourth episode! A lot has happened Die Hard-wise since the last show. I want to get to everything, so I’m just going to jump in with a big thanks to Paul Scheer and the How Did This Get Made podcast. He recommended the show on one of his mini-sodes, and I’m stoked he likes the show, and took the time to give it a shout out. I’m still not sure how he heard about this show in the first place, but however he came across it, I’m glad he did! Also, a couple of weeks ago I went on a spur-of-the-moment road trip to Los Angeles to see the Los Angeles Historic Theatre Foundation’s screening of Die Hard, which was followed by a Q&A with both screenwriters, Jeb Stuart and Stephen E de Souza, hosted by Jeff Goldsmith of Backstory Magazine. Now, the entire conversation is available to listen to and there’s a link in the show notes. Aaaand you can hear me at about one hour, twenty five minutes in, because you know I just had to ask a question. Although it was really hard just picking one. Anyway, go listen to the whole thing because it’s absolutely fascinating. I learned so much. I literally sat in the audience with a notebook and pen and took notes like it was for school. One of the funniest things was, this was Jeb and Stephen’s first time being interviewed together, which I could not believe. They talked about the process of writing Die Hard, but also talked about their writing habits in general. I’ll bring up just one tidbit I learned that they shared in the Q&A. So, when you go through Hans’s gang, only two of them survive: Theo, and the pretty French dude who’s trying to run away with an armful of bearer bonds before McClane knocks him out. I’d just never kept track of all the gang members like that before. So, I think, if they’re gonna do a sequel anyway, they should bring Theo back. Just sayin’. Finally, I got two books in the mail the other day that I’m excited to dig into. The first is Die Hard: The Ultimate Visual History by James Mottram and David S. Cohen. I had that book on pre-order the moment I found out about it, and it’s a huge tome that covers all of the Die Hard movies in detail, with these pieces put in between the pages – kind of like a pop-up book, but nothing… pops – it has storyboards, sketches, script pages, and my favorite, an envelope of photos taken to use as props in the film. The second is the book John McTiernan: The Rise and Fall of an Action Movie Icon by Larry Taylor. Larry contacted me on Twitter and kindly offered me a copy of the book, and I can’t wait to read it for deeper insight on Die Hard’s director. Okay, a few more pieces of business. You can always contact me and share your thoughts on Die Hard and this podcast by... Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram There’s also a Patreon for the show – it takes an incredible amount of time to put this together, so any contribution helps me to offset the cost of creating it, and is a real vote of encouragement. Patreon Shout out to our new contributors, Heather and David. Thank you so much! You can also support Die Hard With a Podcast by leaving a review on iTunes. With more starred ratings and written reviews, the show becomes more visible to other potential listeners, so please share the love and let me know what you think! All right. On to our main topic. When we first see Holly Gennaro – or Holly McClane – she’s walking through the Nakatomi Corporation’s Christmas party, which is already in full swing. But she’s completely focused on a stack of papers in her hand as she brushes past her partying coworkers. She has shit to get done. And that’s mostly how I think of Holly. She’s a woman with shit to do. And not Ellis, not Hans, and not even her husband John can distract her from doing what needs to get done. Holly Gennaro, as portrayed in the movie by Bonnie Bedelia, turns out to be the character who most split people’s opinions. There’s no consensus on whether she’s a damsel in distress, or if she – like so many other conventions that Die Hard challenges – goes beyond your typical 80s action movie female lead. She’s characterized as cold… and warm. Strong… but not having an agency. A good wife and mother just doing her best… or a woman trying and failing to have it all. Even I go back and forth on these. As one of the very few women in Die Hard, Holly Gennaro McClane comes to represent changing societal roles that had mostly been left to romantic comedies. Holly’s portrayal as a working woman, a mother, and a wife reveals the conflicts facing women at that time – and the conflicting viewpoints of the culture around her. Let’s start as we did with our examination of John, and go into her character as written in Roderick Thorp’s 1979 novel, Nothing Lasts Forever. She’s a totally different person, I think even more than how John was changed from the page to the screen. Retired former detective Joe Leland – who would later become John McClane – goes out to Los Angeles for Christmas to visit his daughter, not his estranged wife. Stephanie Gennaro – Steffie – is a divorced mother of two and an executive at Klaxon Oil. We see her through her father’s eyes, and it’s not a pretty picture. She’s sleeping with Ellis, and she’s been doing coke. Which I guess you would expect from someone sleeping with Ellis. It’s also reeeally awkward that her dad is putting thought into who his daughter is sleeping with. Also, there’s this: “Leland thought she looked tired. For years she had been five pounds too heavy, and now it looked like ten. With cocaine in her life, he had to be glad to see that she was still eating.” Yikes. The events of the book transpire pretty much as they do in the movie. The employees are held hostage by terrorists – real terrorists in the book, not thieves – and Joe / John gets away and begins taking them down one by one. But when we get to the final showdown with Joe and the terrorist leader Anton Gruber, there’s a big, big difference. Spoiler alert for the book: Steffie goes out the window with Anton. So yeah, the book is kind of a downer. Movie Holly, thankfully, is a much less tragic character. In Jeb Stuart’s draft of the Die Hard script, this is how Holly is introduced. She turns into: That’s the Holly we know. And the Ellis we know, unfortunately. There’s a movie goof I’d like to point out. For all the drama over which last name Holly uses, if you look at the name on her office door, you can see that it’s misspelled. On her door it says “H. M. Gennero” with a second E instead of an A. I just thought that was amusing. Maybe McClane would have been easier to spell… According to Die Hard: The Ultimate Visual History, casting for Holly’s role was part of a larger strategy of casting warm actors with a lot of depth to balance out Willis’s tough cop. Casting director Jackie Burch chose Bedelia, a New York stage actor who had won a Golden Globe for playing Shirley Muldowney, the first female hot rod racer in the 1983 movie Heart Like a Wheel. Bruce Willis liked Bedelia being brought on board. “Bruce thought that Bonnie would be wonderful; he had enormous respect for her as an actor, and he was so right!” said director John McTiernan. “She was again completely a working-class lady, but solid and honest as the day is long – and that is who he [McClane] would have as a wife.” We actually don’t know all that much about Holly. Like with John, we meet her without a lot of exposition of her background; we have to pick up the context clues. We don’t know anything about how she met John, how she got her job. It leaves a lot of room for us to speculate – speculate about her history, and therefore what her motivations are in the film. Holly’s roles as a working woman, a mother, and a wife allow us to project our own feelings and beliefs onto her, so I’m actually not surprised that the people I talked to ended up with very different assessments of her. It’s also worth noting that there’s a cultural gap between how she was viewed in 1988 versus today, so we need to constantly ask ourselves, is this what the film is trying to say, or is that what I’m taking away from it? The thing we’re most sure of when it comes to Holly is that she is a powerful, high-ranking working woman inside this large corporation. She works hard, and has been rewarded for her efforts. She’s got a corner office, a secretary of her own, and... [CLIP - DIE HARD - ELLIS - SHOW HIM THE WATCH]   Holly tries to downplay her success to John, since it’s already a sore spot in their marriage. But she’s still wearing that watch, and she doesn’t mask the fact that she has even higher ambitions. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - I HAVE AN EYE ON HIS PRIVATE BATHROOM]   Katie Walsh, film critic for the Tribune News Service and LA Times. KATIE WALSH I think that it’s nice to see Holly in a executive role. I think a lot of times, you have like films like 9 to 5 where the working women are more secretaries, or they start as secretaries and they move up to something better. I think it’s nice to see the way that, she says, “I had an opportunity and and I took it.” And we don’t have to really explain how Holly got there, we just understand that, you know, she’s obviously a valued member of the team, Takagi really likes her, she’s doing a great job. And so I think that it’s kind of nice to see that there’s an effortlessness to her success . And I think that’s a bit of an anomaly, otherwise I think 80s movies were constantly showing how women had to like, struggle and get to that role. In the films of the 80s, we can see the intersection of corporate culture and second-wave feminism play out on screen. Unsurprisingly, it’s a mixed message. We applaud the ambition of women escaping the “pink collar ghetto,” as they call it in Nine to Five. In that 1980 film, Dolly Parton, Lily Tomlin, and Jane Fonda are secretaries who are held down, underestimated, and harassed at the office – until they kind of by accident take out their boss. After holding him hostage at his home for weeks, he escapes and returns to the office, only to see that while he was gone, the three women made changes that drastically improved the morale and performance of his workers. In 1988’s Working Girl, Melanie Griffith plays Tess McGill, a woman driven to improve herself and grow her career as she works for a coldly calculating executive played by Sigourney Weaver. When her boss is laid up with an injury, Tess takes over her office, her home, her wardrobe, even her boyfriend, and uses them to execute her own business plan. Which is actually pretty creepy if you think about it. But she’s the hero of the story, so her chutzpah gets rewarded when she’s given a job by the executive she had been pitching. In these films, we see likeable women with low-ranking office roles climb the corporate ladder to success, and we applaud them for their determination. But there’s also the reverse. Women who are already high-powered businesspeople are forced to reckon with their desire for a family, and end up taking a step back from the workplace. In 1987’s Baby Boom, Diane Keaton is made the guardian of a baby girl when a distant relative dies. She’s a busy executive – with the biggest shoulder pads there could possibly be, they’re more like helipads instead of shoulder pads – and at first she refuses to take responsibility for this child. But of course, something inside her melts and she bonds with the child and quits her job – something unthinkable at the beginning of the movie – to devote herself to raising this girl… and to creating a nice little business of baby foods, too. Now, the 1983 film Mr Mom focuses more on Michael Keaton’s character learning to deal with being a stay-at-home dad after losing his job, but we also see his wife, played by Teri Garr, return to the workforce. She’s met with immediate success – but in the end, her lecherous boss and her desire to be with her family pushes her to scale back her time at work. In these films, we can’t say that these women are punished for their ambition, but we do get the message that these women are wrong. They’re wrong to focus on their careers, and once they realize what’s really important – raising a family – that’s how they can get their happy ending. Adam Sternbergh, novelist, contributing editor to New York Magazine, and pop culture journalist. ADAM STERNBERGH I think it’s also not a mistake that the movie uses this kind of marital discord around the idea of a husband and wife dealing with the fact that the wife has a powerful career, or a more important career than the husband. That was also very much of that moment in history and it was, you know, around the same time that movies like Mr Mom were coming out. And you know, America, to some extent was at the cineplex was grappling with this idea that women are successful, and they’re in the workforce and traditional roles are changing. And you know there was this idea in the movies that this was this incredibly new and novel thing, this sort of ascendant woman in the workplace, and the men around her are all trying to deal with the fact that, whoa, she’s got responsibility and she’s got a real job. Bonnie Bedelia is a great actor and was sort of perfectly cast in Die Hard, so I think that she has a sort of gravity that I think some of the other sort of similar characters in the other movies don’t have. And I think they handled it well in the movie. You know her relationship with Mr. Takagi is sort of established early on, that she’s this trusted lieutenant of his. So I think even in her smaller role you take her seriously in a way that you never quite manage to take Melanie Griffith seriously in Working Girl. Women in these executive roles are judged for “trying to be a man;” some do try to take on characteristics coded as masculine in order to sort of disguise the fact that they’re a woman. You know, if women are perceived as weak, then she must not display emotion, she must be even tougher than the men around her. Unfortunately this can backfire, as a woman controlling her emotions is often seen not as stoic, but as cold. KATIE WALSH You know, I think it’s interesting, the way they portray the essential conflict of their relationship, which is that she wants a high powered career, and he clearly has an idea about more traditional values in their gender roles and their marriage, taking his name, that sort of thing. But I think Holly has kind of toughened herself to exist in that world. And so she has kind of like, I mean as we see her at the party and stuff, it’s like she has to put on this front a little bit of, I’m tough, I can hang with the boys, nothing bothers me. So she’s a little bit colder and more brittle in a way. And I hate to describe a woman that way, but she does have like a hard shell a little bit throughout the movie. And John is more like nakedly emotional, or at least we see him being more nakedly emotional about the situation. Sasha Perl-Raver, writer, correspondent, and the host of FX’s Movie Download. SASHA PERL-RAVER I have in my head Joan Cusack wearing a power suit with giant shoulder pads and a huge Aquanet bang wave, and Reeboks on top of nude tights. But the working woman of the 80s was somebody who had to have it all, she has a great career, she had a great sex life, she wasn’t afraid to let you know about it. She’s Sigourney Weaver. But not Ripley Sigourney Weaver, she’s Working Girl Sigourney Weaver. She’s a working woman in the 80s. Was a little brash, a little bit ball-busting, and usually had to be taken down a peg. Like it tended to be more of like the villain character than the hero. Like I’m thinking of Julia Louis-Dreyfus in Mannequin. In Mannequin she’s trying to do the corporate takeover and she’s overpowering and she really needs to be one of the people that falls in like a vat of tar at the end. All of those women sort of in the end, it was their drive that ended up being the hubris. SIMONE: Does Die Hard do that with Holly? SASHA: Of course they do that with Holly. She had to come all the way across the country and drag her children and leave her husband? You deserve to be held hostage in Nakatomi Plaza. When we talk about working women of the 1980s, the first thing to come to mind, even before the sexual politics, is the fashion. Maybe the fact we think of the fashion is already gendered because we’re talking about women here, but it’s a powerful image. As we’ve heard, there are iconic pieces that come up over and over again: shoulder pads. Big hair. Bright eyeshadow. Power suits. White sneakers over nude hose. Holly’s look is very much in this vein, but also more sophisticated – just as her character is, compared to those who came before her. According to Die Hard: The Ultimate Visual History, costume designer Marilyn Vance conceived Holly’s look to convey professionalism and power, using browns and pinks that complemented Bonnie Bedelia’s hair color and skin tone. A business suit was never an option. “She was a softer character,” says Vance. “But at the same time, she had a very important position, so her clothing, to me, had to be suede and leather and something more sumptuous. And it was the right time of year for that because it was Christmastime.” Vance shopped for Holly’s clothes at Saks Fifth Avenue, then had the studio’s costume department use them for inspiration when creating the character’s wardrobe. “The whole idea was for her to be strong but not tailored,” says Vance. “She’s soft as a person but she still means business.” And let’s not forget the importance of Holly’s Rolex. Given to her as a reward for her hard work, it’s symbolically sacrificed at the end of the film, as John unclasps the band so that Hans loses his grip on her and falls from Nakatomi Tower. The symbolism is pretty heavy-handed. The thing that represents her corporate life must be released so that she can keep her family life. And, you know, her life-life. But at least there’s ambiguity about whether or not she’ll give up her job at the end of the film. Concessions are made: losing the watch, Holly using the last name McClane – and we’ll talk about that more in a minute – but she doesn’t also declare that she’s quitting her job and moving the family back to New York. One more thing about the watch. Jeb Stuart, Die Hard screenwriter, has a nitpick. He says: “Anyone who’s ever owned a Rolex knows that watch isn’t gonna just open. It’s a sealed clasp! I brought that up at a production meeting and everybody looked at me like I was insane.” Now, I’ve never owned a Rolex, but if someone wants to send me one so that I can test this out myself, you are more than welcome to. But more than just looking the part, Holly is a natural in the workplace. She’s a good boss, making sure the work gets done, but also looking out for her employees, whether it’s sending her secretary Ginny off to enjoy the party, or negotiating better treatment for her fellow hostages. Even Hans has to acknowledge that. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS - MR TAKAGI CHOSE HIS PEOPLE WELL]   Reed Fish, director and screenwriter. REED FISH Yeah, I think Holly was portrayed pretty sympathetically. I mean, maybe not in the context of the late 80s where it’s like some affront that she’s going to use her maiden name. But you know, she was a good boss, right? She had a pregnant assistant she was always looking out for her. And she was someone who seemed to put her team members above herself, you know she was in a situation, a hostage situation, and she seemed to be looking out for everyone else before her. So it’s pretty sympathetic. Holly’s office is decorated with the trappings of one of her other roles: mother. Images of her children play a pivotal role in the plot of the film, even if they barely appear in the movie themselves. Pictures of her and her kids fill the shelf behind her desk. In frustration, Holly slams one family portrait facedown on the shelf, hiding the only evidence of her marriage to John from Hans. And Hans finds that portrait when reporter Richard Thornberg interviews little Lucy McClane on TV – Holly’s horrified face at seeing the McClane children on camera gives her connection away. For his part, John spends a moment looking at pictures of his kids in his wallet, a reminder of the way things used to be, and how he’d like them to be again. We never actually see Holly with her children. This makes sense narratively, as pretty much the entire movie takes place at her office just as the Christmas party starts. It’s hard to say how Holly is as a mother, but we do get a short scene with her on the phone with her daughter Lucy. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - ON THE PHONE WITH LUCY]   Holly’s tone becomes warm, and she smiles to herself as she talks to her daughter. She’s comforting and reassuring without promising too much – after all, Holly doesn’t even know if John will make it home for Christmas. The ability for Holly to work a demanding job while still having children is a dilemma faced by working women in a way that working fathers never seem to worry about. It also speaks to class and racial divisions, where we must acknowledge that Holly is extremely privileged to even attempt to have it all. Holly relies on her housekeeper Paulina to watch her children while she’s at work. It makes me think about that scene in the awful, awful Sex and the City 2 movie where Charlotte and Miranda complain about how hard motherhood is when they both have full-time help, and they cheers their Cosmo cocktails in honor of the “women without help.” Yeah, thanks Sex in the City 2, thanks for that shoutout from two women having cocktails at a resort in Abu Dhabi. Die Hard of course doesn’t go in depth on this issue, but we get a glimpse of it. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - ON THE PHONE WITH NANNY]   KATIE WALSH I also think it’s interesting to think about her relationship with her nanny. And how upper class working women often rely on women of color and that type of domestic labor in order to both have kids and be in the working world. So there are multiple industries and levels of classes that are going on in the sense of, how do I be a working woman and be a mother and be a wife, and it’s sort of like, one’s gotta go for Holly, and she’s gonna be a mom and she’s gonna be a working woman but she can’t really be a wife. So you see that struggle, and I think at one point she says to the nanny, “What would I do without you?” and it’s such a small moment but it really illustrates that you really can’t be everything to all people at all times in those roles. Die Hard’s emotional arc for its lead character, John, hinges on his relationship with his wife. Now, we know Holly is a good employee and boss. We think she’s probably a pretty good mom; it’s hard to tell but we don’t have anything totally contradicting that. But Holly as a wife – this is where she most obviously can’t have it all. By prioritizing her other two roles, Holly shirks her role as a wife. She leaves John behind, even leaves his name behind. Holly’s use of her maiden name becomes a particular sticking point in the film. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - YOU DIDN’T MISS MY LAST NAME]   Then again, John doesn’t sound like he was a supportive husband. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN AND ARGYLE - GREAT JOB TURNED INTO A GREAT CAREER]   So, should we be blaming Holly? Is she putting herself and her career first, and dragging the kids along with her? Or is she doing what’s best for her family, and leaving John behind because he’s not going to support her in the way that she needs? ADAM STERNBERGH If you think too much about their marriage, though, it seems quite problematic. Like, she’s moved with the kids across the country and he stayed in New York. The movie doesn’t really explain why he would do that; it quite seems – at least to a modern perspective, it seems quite a dramatic choice for him to just refuse to move with his kids, and be separated from his kids. But again this is the sort of time period between like, on one end, Kramer Versus Kramer, and on the other end Mr. Mom and movies like that, so obviously there was a lot of issues that were being worked out in the movie theaters about men and women and families and who was the head of the house, and how we were going to like work that all out together. One way to get a read on what the movie is trying to say about Holly is to see how she compares to her husband. As the couple fights, whose side do you take? Is she treated more sympathetically, or is he? Opinions are split. Ed Grabianowski, pop culture writer and horror and fantasy author. ED GRABIANOWSKI I think the intent was to make Holly a little less sympathetic because I think in that era, the whole working woman image and the idea of it, a woman who puts her career before family is somehow neglecting her responsibilities or something like that. I guess it depends on how tied you are to the idea of a traditional family. So I think anyone who is is going to find Holly very unsympathetic, and anybody who’s more interested in feminism and equality among men and women is going to find Holly more sympathetic. So overall I find Holly sympathetic, but I definitely understand where John McClane is coming from. And I don’t feel unsympathetic towards him, because I don’t think like, he didn’t set out to do anything bad. He just reacted shittily to a situation that happened to his family, that wasn’t necessarily what he wanted. And that happens to people, you know, like regardless how you feel about family structure in general, like just stuff happens to your family and you’re like, I don’t know how to deal with this and sometimes you fuck it up and you have to go back and fix it. And that’s what John is doing. I guess in that way, it sort of comes out a tie. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - I KNOW WHAT YOUR IDEA OF OUR MARRIAGE IS LIKE]   The fact that we don’t know what John and Holly were like at the beginning of their relationship can leave you wondering how they were even together in the first place. SASHA PERL-RAVER If you say that opposites attract, I get that, but I don’t think that opposites marry and have children and are then suddenly torn asunder by a move across the country, or whatever other things are the reasons that they actually broke up. I think that they – she is too no-nonsense to have been with him for as long as she was. She seems to me a very pragmatic woman who would not have taken his stuff, and they would not have gone to the altar. Unless it was like, a Las Vegas 36-hour situation. They make no sense to me. What do you think? SIMONE: I think they probably got together, they were younger; there was probably some hot chemistry. You know, they’re both attractive and there’s passion; they seem like passionate people. And then they actually get married and have kids and she shifts that passion to the career. And they don’t talk about the reasons for taking this job but I would have to assume, at least she’s telling herself she’s doing it for the sake of her family, that this will help take care of them or something. And just drifts apart from John and they sort of evolve as people on their own. And so when you see them later, they’ve already moved far apart. SASHA: And I always assumed she took the part because she was sick of dealing with this workaholic, New York City police guy who was always off with his trigger finger like at the ready, and she just wanted to have a nice, stable life so she got the job working for the Nakatomi Corporation so she could provide for her family and not have to worry about him. Or maybe! She was always afraid he was going to get himself killed on the job, so she pulled away to protect her heart and had to make sure she didn’t have to live on like a widow’s severance or whatever. What’s that called? SIMONE: It’s not like a pension. Like a benefit? SASHA: Whatever the death benefit would be. Maybe that’s what it is. Maybe she always knew that he was too wild. And she just wanted to make sure – she, she seems very stable. Very stable. It’s true that at first glance, John and Holly seem like opposites. But at their cores, they’re both very determined – and stubborn – people. Scott Wampler, news editor at Birth. Movies. Death., and host of the Trying Times podcast. SCOTT WAMPLER I think it’s complicated, to borrow some terminology from social media. I think that Holly is – I think that they’re both career people, and when you have two people that are that invested in their careers and then they have kids, shit gets complicated. Holly’s thing is that, you know, she got moved out to LA for a job, or she chose to move out to LA for this job. I can’t fault her for that. I also can’t fault John McClane for being mad that she pulled up roots and took the kids out there. I can imagine not being thrilled with that either. So I think it’s sort of a draw in terms of who my sympathies would lie with more. And I also think they’re both a little dickish in their own ways. In this sense, I do believe them as a couple. And I can see what attracted them to one another. You know, on a physical level, and just on a worldview level. You know? REED FISH I think that that whole Holly-John dynamic, but for me it felt like very just unreal? Because it didn’t seem like someone in her position would be with someone like him. And maybe it’s one of those things where their lives were, you know, when they first got together ten years ago their lives were much different, and then her career took off. But like I never really saw what the deal was, why they would ever be together, and why, say, anyone would ever want to be with John McClane romantically whatsoever, at all. ‘Cause clearly he is not someone you’d want to be married to, in my opinion. I feel like the dynamic between Holly and John – there’s good tension there, but I just didn’t find the relationship all that believable. It didn’t seem to me that she would be with him. I really have to do some mental gymnastics to figure out the scenario where those two characters would have gotten together and gotten married and had kids. These unanswered questions about the couple’s past leaves us unsure about their marriage’s future. But there are clear signs that both hope for a reconciliation – they just need to get out of their own ways first. When Holly calls her housekeeper Paulina, she tries to play it cool, but you know she wasn’t intending on using that spare bedroom if John came home. She likewise tries to act disinterested with John himself, not let on how bad she wants him... [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - I HAVE THE SPARE BEDROOM]   … Until, of course, she finally opens up. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - I MISSED YOU]   And John has to blow it by picking a fight with her, right at that moment. But we know that John loves Holly. He spends the entire movie putting his life on the line for her. At the end of the film, we don’t know how their marriage will fare once they get home. But at least for a moment, we get a happy ending. [CLIP - DIE HARD - ARGYLE - RUN INTO EACH OTHER’S ARMS]   John and Holly exit Nakatomi Tower together, holding each other, happy to be safely reunited. When John introduces her to Al Powell, Holly takes a turn. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HOLLY - HOLLY McCLANE]   This one line always ends up at the center of analyses of Holly’s character. What does it mean? Is Holly going to give up her career and go back to being primarily a wife and mother? Is she just in a particularly generous mood because she just escaped with her life? In my personal opinion, I believe that because John introduced her to Al as Holly Gennaro, using her own preferred name, with no hesitation, that she felt it was time to make a concession. And if both John and Holly are willing at long last to make concessions, they have a future together. Well, if we ignore the sequel films, anyway. Another way to try and analyze how Die Hard treats its female lead is to compare it to other action films. So: Is Holly considered a damsel in distress? After our analysis of her character, we can tick off some pros and cons. Let’s say Holly is a damsel in distress. Well, she… Is literally being held hostage. And when the villain finds out her connection to the hero, the villain targets her specifically to cause the hero emotional pain. It can be argued that she has no agency, no ability to make decisions or act pro-actively to save herself: she just sits with the other hostages and waits. Her emotions betray her when she sees her kids on TV. And finally, we do get a peek at her bra by the end of the film. But what does Die Hard do differently? Holly’s not the only hostage, of course. She’s being held with men and other women. The villain first uses another man – Ellis – to try to manipulate our hero; Hans is using whoever he thinks might have a connection to John, regardless of gender. Holly doesn’t act fearful throughout the film – except for the very last bit where’s she’s hanging out of a 40th floor window, which, who could blame her? And finally, maybe she does have agency. Maybe she thought about trying to escape or sabotage the villain’s plan. But it could be that she assessed her options and decided that trying to go along with the villains’ plan would give her the best outcome. We know she’s an incredibly level-headed and pragmatic person. ADAM STERNBERGH And she gets a lot of great moments in the film. The film totally does not discard her or disregard her. She is very strong in her own right and gets to – and is quite instrumental as to how the whole thing plays out too. Which in hindsight might not seem like a big deal, but at the time it also felt like a break from the sort of standard action movie foil, heroine, damsel, exactly. Whether or not Holly is a damsel in distress leads us to our final question of this episode. Is Die Hard a feminist film? Yeah, okay, that even sounded funny to me. I’m gonna go ahead and say “No” here. I think that a film has to be doing more to actively challenge the patriarchy and promote women’s rights and explain women’s issues to be called feminist. But I do think that Die Hard was working a little harder than other films at the time. Die Hard is elevated above all other action films of its time in nearly every aspect: story, acting, the craft of the film. And I think in so doing, it put a little more thought into Holly too. Her character, with all her positive attributes and flaws, achieves a level of humanity that many other films deny their female leads. As we discussed in the last episode, what makes the character of John McClane such a beloved hero is his humanity. It makes sense that his wife would have her own humanity shine through, too. In our next episode, we’re going back to the beginning. We’re going to take an in-depth look at Roderick Thorp’s novel Nothing Lasts Forever to see where the seeds of Die Hard were sown. Thank you to our guests Ed Grabionowski, Sasha Perl-Raver, Scott Wampler, Reed Fish, Adam Sternbergh, and Katie Walsh. Be sure to check the show notes on the website to learn more about them. Thanks again for joining me, and yippee-kai-yay, motherfuckers!

The high-quality talent of the team that brought Die Hard to the screen is well-recognized. But to many, the secret ingredient to the movie's success was Bruce Willis and his portrayal of John McClane, an everyman police officer from New York, trapped in Nakatomi Tower at exactly the wrong time – and without even shoes on his feet. McClane takes on the role of reluctant hero to save his wife and the other innocent hostages, and defeat German terrorist-thief Hans Gruber. The McClane character has stuck in audiences' memories ever since, and sparked a change in how action heroes are characterized. So what makes John McClane so special? How much of it is his character, how much of it is the influence of other legendary heroes before him, and how much of it is Willis bringing the role to life?  Let us know what you think! Drop us a line at diehardwithapodcast@gmail.com, or visit our site at www.diehardwithapodcast.com   Links Baroness Von Sketch's Die Hard sketch Spin Magazine, How So I Married an Axe Murderer Wrecked One Writer’s Vision, Lost Several Stars, Bombed at the Box Office, and Became a Classic Anyway by Maggie Serota Halloween Unmasked on The Ringer network, with Amy Nicholson   Source Links A/V Club, Die Hard humanized (and perfected) the action movie A/V Club, The novel that inspired Die Hard has its structure, but none of its holiday spirit American Film Institute, 100 Greatest Heroes and Villains Another Angry Woman, Making fists with your toes: Towards a feminist analysis of Die Hard Deep Focus Review, The Definitives: Die Hard Empire, Empire Essay: Die Hard Review Film School Rejects, 31 Things We Learned From the ‘Die Hard’ Commentary Track MovieTime Guru, Die Hard: First Impressions Last Script Secrets, Die Hard analysis The Guardian, Die Hard at 30: how it remains the quintessential American action movie The Internet Movie Script Database, Die Hard shooting script Vulture, How Die Hard Changed the Action Game   Guests Reed Fish Jeremiah Friedman Shannon Hubbell Sasha Perl-Raver Adam Sternbergh Katie Walsh Scott Wampler   Get In Touch Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram Patreon   Full Episode Transcript Welcome to the podcast, pal. My name is Simone Chavoor, and thank you for joining me for Die Hard With a Podcast! The show that examines the best American action movie of all time: Die Hard. This is episode three of the show, and I wanted to thank you all again for the amazing response we got for the last episode. I’ve been having a lot of fun talking with people about Die Hard for the podcast. First of all, the fact that people get SO EXCITED to talk about Die Hard and have SO MANY thoughts on it gets me so amped up. I’m telling you, if you’re socially awkward like me, just ask somebody what they think about Die Hard and you can have an amazing conversation for an hour and feel like you just made a new friend. Some of the folks I’ve talked to are friends I’ve had for years, and then sometimes they recommend their own friends, like, “you gotta talk to this guy, he fucking loves Die Hard,” and some have been people I’ve cold-emailed or cold-Tweeted who say yes to talking to a perfect stranger because they get to talk about Die Hard and have someone actually listen to them. And we just get to be big nerds about something we love, and it’s amazing. And also, now everyone knows how much I love Die Hard and everyone’s sending me Die Hard things they see on the internet and I’m loving it. Like I’m a pretty easy person to figure out; if you see something that’s Star Wars, or tiki, or horror movie, or Nine Inch Nails, or pizza, or kitty cat-related online, that’s gonna make my day. But now people know that Die Hard is one of my Things I Like, so they’re passing along the best stuff. One thing a friend sent me was this sketch by the comedy troupe Baroness Von Sketch, where this lady is at a party, complaining to her friend that she can’t meet guys, and her friend says she knows a trick. She stands back and says “OH MY GOD I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU HAVEN’T SEEN DIE HARD,” and then alllll the dudes come flocking. I almost died. Except now I know why I’m single, because clearly I’m doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. But that’s okay, I’m having too good of a time lady-splaining Die Hard to you all. Speaking of lady-splaining… I’ve had such a great response from ladies who are excited to see themselves represented in this genre. Die Hard gets thought of as a bro movie. And I am definitely not a bro. I got an email from a listener, Cindy, who says: I also really wanted to express how exhilarated I am that you are of the womanly persuasion. I am also a woman who loves Die Hard, and I know there are plenty of us out there, but that's not the popular perception. I've dearly wanted the perspective of other women who actually enjoy the film--it seems like millennial women are either turned off by the lone-hero-cop narrative, which I understand, or see Die Hard as the ultimate annoying dudebro movie, which is frustrating. It warms my heart, like literally makes it feel all fuzzy and nice, that this podcast exists, with a woman helming the way. Yes, girl. I absolutely feel you. And I wanted to give two quick shouts to two other women who are doing some exciting work. Maggie Serota wrote a piece for Spin magazine titled, “How So I Married an Axe Murderer Wrecked One Writer’s Vision, Lost Several Stars, Bombed at the Box Office, and Became a Classic Anyway.” So I Married an Axe Murderer is another favorite movie of mine – Mike Meyers is so, so funny, and I have immense nostalgia for the 90s and also love any movie set in the Bay Area. Maggie wrote the piece for the movie’s 25th anniversary, but also because it’s one of her all-time favorite movies. There’ll be a link in the show notes; go check that out. Also, Amy Nicholson, who you know from the podcasts The Canon and Unspooled, is doing an 8-part series called Halloween Unmasked for The Ringer podcast network, which is all about, obviously, the movie Halloween. I love horror movies, but Halloween was never one of my favorites, so I’m letting Amy take me away in her deep dive on the film. The podcast premiered on October 1st, so catch up on the first three episodes now. So, if you want to send me funny links and memes about Die Hard, or if you have other suggestions for female film critics’ works, drop me a line! Email Website Twitter Facebook Instagram And if you like this show, kick me a buck or two on Patreon. Patreon helps to offset the cost of doing this show, not just in pure dollars and cents, but for the sheer amount of time this podcast takes to put together. This is my first solo project, and although I have the wonderful, amazing support of my guests and fans, it still takes a lot of time researching, writing, recording, and editing. Patreon Shout out to our contributors… Cindy, who sent that lovely email earlier, and Paul! And special thanks to Paul for his support, as his encouragement means a lot to me on this particular project. Thank you so much! You can also support Die Hard With a Podcast by leaving a review on iTunes. With more starred ratings and written reviews, the show becomes more visible to other potential listeners, so please share the love and let me know what you think! All right. On to our main topic. When we last left off, we talked about Die Hard’s place in the 80s action movie ecosystem. How it was molded by the conventions of the genre at the time, but also how it broke the mold – and improved upon it. There was a lot that elevated Die Hard beyond a conventional, empty, popcorn-chomp of an action movie. There was the amazingly neat and efficient script, the gorgeous work of cinematographer Jan De Bont, the genius of John McTiernan’s directing. But to many, the secret ingredient was Bruce Willis and his character of John McClane. So what makes John McClane so special? How much of it is his character, and how much of it is Willis bringing the role to life? Let’s take a step back. Before we figure out why McClane is an iconic action movie hero, let’s talk about what makes a good hero in any story. There’s been so much written about the Hero’s Journey, and archetypes and, well, I’m no Joseph Campbell. I think, for our purposes, we can really really really simplify it down to this: a hero is someone who is undergoing some sort of ordeal, and who is someone we root for. We root for them because we relate to them in some way, and view them with a mix of admiration and sympathy. To contextualize things a bit, let’s look at The American Film Institute’s 100 Greatest Heroes and Villains list. Now unfortunately, our John McClane didn’t make the list (although Hans Gruber came in 46th on the Villains list). But let’s look at the top 5: 1. Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird 2. Indiana Jones 3. James Bond 4. Rick Blaine, Casablanca 5. Will Kane, High Noon All men from different backgrounds, but who fall within our definition of hero. Further on in this episode, at least three of these heroes come up in comparison to John McClane. So, even though John himself doesn’t make the list, him being compared to Indiana Jones, Rick Blaine, and Will Kane on the regular, means he’s doing pretty all right. In order to root for our hero, the audience needs to see themselves in his shoes – or lack thereof. Someone who’s perfect is unrealistic, unbelievable – and really, don’t the people who pretend to be perfect kinda bug you? But a hero with flaws, a hero who’s the underdog – we want to see them overcome their obstacles. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN I’m Jeremiah Friedman, and I’m a screenwriter. Mostly working on the film side of things. I don't know if you can set out to create an iconic movie hero. I mean I guess you can set out to create an iconic movie hero. Some of it feels like, you know, a little bit of like lightning in a bottle. I think, you want something that hasn't been seen before, and that feels emotionally relatable to people. They feel like they get that guy or that woman, and they just want to root for them. And I think that the original Die Hard, if we're going old school and not 2-3-4-5, what makes McClane so compelling is he's such an underdog you can root for the entire movie, and you just feel like he has the whole world against him. Sasha Perl-Raver, writer, correspondent, and the host of FX’s Movie Download. SASHA PERL-RAVER So I think that the best heroes have to be both heroic and flawed. I mean, I think about everybody from obviously John McClane, but even to Alexander Hamilton in the Hamilton musical, you’ve got somebody who is exceptional but has this one thing that is inevitably also their downfall. When you think of even Murtaugh and Riggs in Lethal Weapon – Mel Gibson’s character, the fact that he’s so broken, he’s on the verge of psychosis. He is a great cop and an excellent fighter and has all this combat training, but also comes from this incredibly fractured place, is what makes him really interesting. I think that heroes in general have to do the things that we wish we would do, say the things we wish we would say, and somehow manage the impossible. But they have to be somebody who you either want to emulate or relate to. I think those are all the key characteristics that make a great hero. First impressions are incredibly important, especially when meeting our hero for the first time. John McClane went through several iterations from his beginnings on the pages of a novel to the script to the screen. Let’s take a look at how McClane is introduced to us. In the 1979 novel Nothing Lasts Forever, written by Roderick Thorp, John McClane is actually Joe Leland, a retired cop turned private detective. Far from the handsome 30-something McClane we get in the movie, Leland is an older man – if you’ll recall, Frank Sinatra was offered a chance to reprise his version of Leland from his previous film The Detective – and Sinatra was 73 years old at the time. He turned it down. The book opens with him in the back of a cab on the way to the airport… aaand the cab has just crashed in a snowy fender-bender. There’s little physical description of Leland in the book, although we’re told he’s a “mature man” – and it makes sense, given that he’s trying to make his flight to Los Angeles to see his grown daughter and her children. But we quickly learn what kind of man Leland is. After his cab gets in an accident, Leland’s instant dislike for the driver of the station wagon his cab has hit mixes with his anxiety about missing his flight. The other man is a racist bully who tries to push the cab off the road as they try to leave – and holy shit, Leland just goes ahead and pulls his gun on him so he and his cab driver can make it to the terminal on time. But far from being a badass, Leland immediately regrets his impulsive action, and is left shaken as the adrenaline leaves him. He makes his his flight, and strikes up a flirtation with the stewardess, Kathi – spelled with an “i.” He kisses her (it’s okay, his ex-wife is long dead), and gets her number so they can meet up later. It’s actually kind of sweet. In the script and on the screen, we meet John McClane already at the end of his flight. On the page, he’s described as “mid-thirties, good-looking, athletic and tired from his trip. He sits by the window. His relief on landing is subtle but we notice.” The businessman next to him takes this opportunity to offer his advice about taking off his shoes and making “fists with his toes,” as we all remember. The plane finishes taxiing, and they begin to disembark. In the first draft: McClane is calm and reassuring as he flashes his badge and heads off the plane – after helping a lady with her bags. In the shooting script, he’s a little more relaxed, a little cockier. McClane is definitely more of a rascal here, a funny guy, a ladykiller. While the bit with the stewardess is pretty much cut out of the final film, let’s listen to how this scene plays out. [CLIP - DIE HARD - McCLANE ON THE PLANE] There’s a lot of work being done in these opening moments. It’s part of what’s so, so good about the Die Hard script. In under two minutes, we learn a lot about John McClane. The very first thing we see is something that comes up over and over again when discussing McClane’s character: he’s vulnerable. He’s afraid of flying, and it’s noticeable enough that the guy sitting next to him feels the need to reassure him, offer him advice. We also quickly learn: He’s a married man with kids (from the wedding ring on his finger, the teddy bear he’s carrying, and his disinterest in pursuing things with the stewardess he locks eyes with as he exits) He’s still good looking though, given the eyefuck the stewardess gives him He’s a policeman from New York with over a decade of experience He’s armed (I guess being armed on a plane was cool in 1988; I don’t know, I was born in ‘83 so this concept is still really weird to me) He’s a bit of a wiseguy, using humor to break the tension as the businessman becomes visibly concerned over that gun There are so many other ways that McClane could have been introduced. We could have seen him in the cab ride to the airport. We could have seen him deep in conversation with the stewardess. We could have even seen him already in Los Angeles, or even alllll the way back in New York before he even began his trip. But here, we cut right to the chase, and are shown the most important things we need to know just as the main action starts. John McClane’s vulnerability is probably the number one character trait that comes up when discussing him. But a close second is his being “a guy.” He’s a guy, he’s a dude, he’s an everyman. He’s someone you know; he’s someone like you. He’s relatable. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN He's not super jacked up, he seems more like an ordinary guy more or less. And he's got relatable issues. He's got a problem with his marriage, he kind of fucked up his marriage. He's got this blue collar job that seem pretty routine, he's going to be crashing on a friend's couch. He's kind of a fish out of water, which is a big part of the movie too. He doesn't feel anything like Los Angeles as Los Angeles as portrayed in the movie. He's right at the Christmas party, he's uncomfortable in the limo. Everything that gets thrown at him is outside of his comfort zone. And you are very much with him the whole movie. So you're kind of along for the ride and on his side to a certain extent. We’ve all been there. We’ve all hated flying, we’ve all argued with our significant others, we’ve all been at parties we don’t want to be at. We’ve been John McClane. And so when John is faced with extraordinary circumstances, it leads the audience to put themselves into John’s place and wonder what they would do. According to Vulture.com, “Die Hard is rightly situated as a visceral experience because John McClane becomes such a direct surrogate for the audience; it becomes a ‘what would you do’ scenario, and an exercise in improvisation. John McClane is a street cop, flying through this thing by the seat of his pants, just like we would.” Scott Wampler, news editor at Birth. Movies. Death., and host of the Trying Times podcast. SCOTT WAMPLER And, as you already pointed out the weakness that John shows during that first movie in particular, and the fear and the indecisiveness, all of that is key to making him and every man character, but also key to making him relatable to the audience. You can absolutely imagine yourself in John McClane shoes. He definitely does some heroic shit. He does some shit that I would probably be too cowardly to do. But, also like put in that position where you're running on adrenaline, I could feasibly imagine myself doing a lot of the stuff that John McClane does. Not beating up any like six-foot-five Russians, definitely, you know, but like the other stuff. You know, he’s wiley, he thinks on his feet, he’s a smart guy. He’s clever. REED FISH I’m Reed Fish, I’m a director and screenwriter. I feel like John McClane, to me, was not an emotionally relatable character, but I feel like in the predicament that he was in, it was relatable to me because I felt like, Oh, you know, if push came to shove I could probably do those things too. Where in a typical Schwarzenegger movie, like in Predator or something, I don't think there was ever a moment where I was like, Oh yeah I think I could do that. So I feel like John McClane is a proxy for someone who, you're like me and you think you're witty, you think you're clever, you think you're smart. Well, I certainly I could outsmart Hans Gruber. Well except I'm bigger so I don't think I could have fit in that air shaft. SIMONE: Well it's a lot easier to picture yourself like I can probably move a panel on an elevator shaft, but I don't think I could wrestle a helicopter out of the sky. REED: Yeah, yeah, basically. And I remember in Commando, Schwarzenegger jumps off the airplane as it’s taking off, and jumps into a swamp. And you’re like, okay – not that you think he could do that, but you think yeah, I’m not going to do that. So I would have just been on the plane to South America. As we mentioned previously, that relatability comes not just through John looking and acting realistically, but also because he’s not a perfect person. He’s fucked up. SCOTT WAMPLER I think John McClane’s kind of an asshole, you know, but he’s a loveable asshole, you know? When John McClane is an asshole to people, they kinda had it coming. You know what I mean? Like particularly in the case of the terrorists, but also him giving sass to Ellis, or whatever. He's definitely more of a dick to his wife and he needs to be. But also just to speak as a devil's advocate here we don't – we could some of their backstory, but we don't know everything that happened between John and Holly up until that point. I'm sure he has his own reasons to be mad, and I'm not here to judge them. But he strikes me as a likable guy. Definitely a guy I would get a beer with. I would love to ask this guy about his history and his stories. He’s personable. He’s an asshole, but he’s personable. REED FISH John McClane is kind of a dick. And I was quite struck by that, just how much of a dick he was in the setup of the movie, in terms of the relationship with his wife and his non-existent relationship with his kids. He's not someone I really wanted to succeed. I did not find him sympathetic. But, that said, once it gets going, and he's ingenious, and he's clever, and obviously Bruce Willis at that moment had quite a lot of charisma, by the end, you are pulling for him. Even though for me, it was kind of bittersweet because you're like, oh, he's such a dick. And here’s the thing: John McClane knows he’s a dick. And he hates himself for it, and he can’t get out of his own way. As John McTiernan and Bruce Willis worked on the character, they came to the realization that at his core, John McClane is a man who does not like himself very much, but is doing the best he can in a bad situation. SASHA PERL-RAVER In 80s action movies, again, like Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, that self-loathing is something that propels these characters to do something beyond themselves, which is sort of interesting. Like, I am not good enough to survive, so all of these other people should survive instead of me. Because any normal rational human being would not do the stuff that John McClane does, except that he feels he is not worthy of anything else. Until he jumps off the roof and ties the fire hose around his stomach and says please don't let me die. That's the one time where you're like, Oh, he doesn't have a death-wish, he's not a complete maniac, he’s still trying to get through it. But yeah, the self-loathing is I think a great character trait. But the key to John’s success within the plot is his flaws. The very characteristics that drive his wife, his captain, the LAPD down on the ground completely crazy are the ones that undo Hans Gruber and his plan. Adam Sternbergh, novelist, contributing editor to New York Magazine, and pop culture journalist. ADAM STERNBERGH If you were to renumberate his flaws, he’s very stubborn. But then in a sense all the things that are presented as personality flaws in the beginning like his sort of pig-headedness and unwillingness to capitulate to his wife’s career decisions and things like that, they end up sort of being qualities that help him prevail because he’s just so ridiculously persistent against these terrorists. Yep. Just being annoying is enough to start unravelling the calm, cool, collected terrorists. So I mentioned last episode that I created a Die Hard D&D character alignment chart, because I am a huge nerd. It actually ended up being pretty helpful as I looked more into McClane’s character. So, in case you haven’t played Dungeons and Dragons before, a character alignment chart is chart that categorizes the “ethical and moral perspectives of player characters, non-player characters, and creatures.” It helps you create a character, and gives you guidelines to how a character will behave and react to new situations. If you look at it, it’s nine squares in a three-by-three grid. Each square has a character in it along with their alignment, which is determined by where it sits on the rows and columns of the chart. The first row is “lawful.” Using the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons rules, lawful “implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability.” The second row is “neutral.” The third row is “chaotic.” This “implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.” Switching directions, the first column is “good.” Should be pretty self-explanatory, but, just in case, it “implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.” The second column is “neutral.” The third column is “evil.” This “implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.” Whether or not you ever actually play D&D, I really recommend learning more about character alignments. It’s not a perfect system for creating deep, complex characters, but if you’re a writer or just a fan of storytelling, it can unlock some interesting insights. I categorized John McClane as “chaotic good.” But Simone, you say, John McClane is a police officer! Shouldn’t he be lawful? Well, not really. He’s a police officer, yes, but we know he doesn’t always play by the rules. [CLIP - DIE HARD - TONY AND JOHN - YOU’RE A POLICEMAN] We know that John improvises, taking in the situation as it lies and creating ad hoc solutions just to get through, moment to moment. He doesn’t have a long-term plan other than to vaguely somehow rescue Holly and the other hostages if possible. That John is also characterized as “good” is pretty obvious. He doesn’t want to hurt anyone if he doesn’t have to, and he wants to protect his wife and other innocent people. Even if those people aren’t exactly on his side. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN TRIES TO CALL OFF THE FBI] So how does this make John the perfect guy to defeat Hans Gruber. Well, Hans is “neutral evil.” The neutral comes from Hans having no loyalty to anyone other than himself. He’s not technically on the side of the law, but he’s also not an agent of chaos. To lend some perspective, Deputy Police Chief Dwayne T Robinson is Lawful Evil (he follows the law but in so doing fucks things up and is a total dick about it), and Karl is Chaotic Evil (he’s a wildcard, willing to disobey even Hans if it’ll get him the revenge he’s after). Hans has planned this Nakatomi takeover down to the minute. He knows everything about the building, the vault, Takagi… [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS FINDS TAKAGI] … and he knows step by step what needs to be done to pull off this heist. [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS - I PRESENT THE FBI] Hans has accounted for everything. Except for one thing. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - I WAS INVITED BY MISTAKE] John McClane is something Hans could have never, ever predicted. I like to think that somewhere, Hans had a guest list of the entire party and had checked everyone out to some degree. But John wasn’t expected to come. Hell, even Holly wasn’t sure that John was coming – his showing up was a surprise. So the one thing that Hans couldn’t see coming, the thing that Hans doesn’t know how to predict, is the thing that completely blindsides him. John’s chaotic behavior, a liability in his marriage and everyday life, is just what’s needed to bring Hans down. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - JUST A FLY IN THE OINTMENT] Plus, it drives Hans – and Karl, too – completely crazy. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN There’s kind of the external stuff. Like at the beginning of the movie, he’s going with a very clear mission, he’s a man on a mission, he’s a guy who wants to get his wife back. And he has no interest in any of this Nakatomi terrorism crap. And then to get his wife back, he has to deal with Hans and all these people. But he also has to overcome his own thing, which is kind of part of the genius of the movie, which is what makes him such like a difficult, crappy husband is also what makes him so problematic for Hans. He’s kind of relentless, and he stubborn, and he’s belligerent and all these things that make him – you know, in that fight scene in Holly’s office in the middle of the Christmas party, and she leaves and he knocks his head on the bathroom wall, and starts ragging on himself – and he knows he’s the problem, in a sense, but he can’t help himself. And he becomes the problem for Hans in a way that we all love. And part of the fun of that movie is he’s not just killing guys, he’s getting inside, he’s pissing them off. You know there’s the moment when they send Karl and some people after him, and then Karl comes back and destroys the bar cart, and Holly’s like, “He’s still alive.” And her secretary is like, how do you know, and she’s like, “Only John can make somebody that angry.” But okay: John’s only skill isn’t making people mad. He’s a veteran police officer, and as he demonstrates, he’s a pretty good one. We see him putting together the clues. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - FAKE IDS AND EUROPEAN CLOTHING LABELS] Katie Walsh, film critic for the Tribune News Service and LA Times. KATIE WALSH And then you get John McClane, who’s just like – kind of just a guy. He’s a normal, everyday guy; he doesn’t have special training other than being a cop. He uses common sense and he’s not like a special forces guy he’s not a military dude. He’s just like, I’m just using my everyday knowledge of being a cop and applying that to this situation. So, in many ways he does fit the mold of this singular hero who’s resourceful and thinks on his feet and has, you know a specific set of skills, but it’s not so outside the realm of everyday possibility. SIMONE: He doesn’t have the Liam Neeson “set of special skills.” KATIE: No, no. You’re not like, Oh my god, this guy was in the special forces, you kind of look at him and go, you know, this guy is just a really good cop who happens to be very physically gifted and resourceful. Something I read that I really, really loved is how even though John is armed with a machine gun (ho ho ho), he uses it as so much more. From the blog “Another Angry Woman”: “And yet, in John’s hands, the primary function of the gun is not as a weapon. There are more instances within the film of John using the gun as some sort of tool than as something to kill or hurt people with... John is far more creative in his use of firearms. In his hands, a gun becomes a multitude of useful objects as he displays the kind of creative thinking that neurosexists like to term ‘feminine’ as opposed to the logical, analytical male approach. The gun, wielded by John, is a device for allowing escapes as a rig and a thing to get back into the building, as well as jamming a fan. It is also repeatedly used as a last-resort communication device, shooting to make noise and draw attention, shooting to direct a crowd away from explosive death.” John McClane, even though he’s presented as a tough, macho New York City cop, actually ends up subverting macho stereotypes throughout the film. In our last episode, we talked about the hulking meat-trees that starred in other 80s action movies. John McClane is already different in that, while masculine, he’s not masculinity on steroids. In fact, it’s the macho posturing of the forces around him: the LAPD and the FBI versus the terrorists, that creates a stalemate that forces McClane to act. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN One of the moments I always like to think about and talk about when I'm talking about the movie, is what he jumps off the roof when the roof blows up. When he gets up there – first of all, he’s forced to jump off the roof ‘cause they're shooting at him and he's going to die. And before he does it, he's terrified and he says a prayer to God to please don't let him die. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - ON ROOF] And it makes him so human, and you've never really seen that and that kind of character before. He's not just doing it because he's a badass, he can do this. He’s doing it because he has to do it. And that's kind of the beauty of the movie. He keeps getting forced Into doing things he does not want to do. And he keeps trying to get out of it, in a way. But he's kind of, the movie plays with all the Western stuff, the Roy Rogers, he's the cowboy he's got to get the job done. But he's scared, and he's vulnerable, and he's angry, and he has very human reactions to the crazy things that are happening around him. So the aspirational quality I think is that you would be able to be a smart and brave and as tough eventually as McClane is. And you would die as hard as he does. I would go out in the... I wouldn't be Ellis, but I would go out pretty quickly. John – and the movie Die Hard itself – gets compared to cowboys in Westerns a lot. As Deep Focus Review puts it, “McClane is established as a newly envisioned but classical Western hero — an Easterner ‘goin’ out West’ to tame the frontier. Gruber, McClane’s nemesis throughout the film, even points this out later by referring to McClane as a cowboy.” And John is a cowboy, in a lot of ways. An honorable sheriff type, trying to save the townspeople with nothing but his wits and his grit. According to the site Script Secrets, “He is a cowboy: an individualistic man whose character is earthy and grounded in reality.” [CLIP - DIE HARD - HANS - GARY COOPER] And there it is. Even while he’s a cocky, swaggering cowboy, one of the cowboys John McClane resembles most is Gary Cooper’s Will Kane in High Noon, who was already an in-genre subversion of the cowboy trope. In High Noon, Will Kane learns of a dangerous enemy coming back into town in a mere couple of hours. It’s a man who he once sent to prison, who is now free and will certainly try to seek revenge. At first, Kane attempts to flee with his wife (played by Grace Kelly), but he feels compelled to end this threat to his life, and the safety of the townspeople. So he comes back to face him… but discovers that the townsfolk won’t help him. Kane is left alone to face Frank Miller. And he’s afraid. He’s visibly desperate and afraid. But with no other choice, he shows down with Miller and his gang, and – with a little assist from his wife – he takes them all out. McClane’s fear and vulnerability was the biggest twist in the action movie genre at the time. From Deep Focus Review again: “McClane is not an impervious robotic warrior carved from the template of the action movie gods. Embodied by Willis with pitch-perfect humanism, McClane bleeds, cries out in pain and emotional desperation, and has imperfections that become his trademark. One of the film’s most memorable characteristics is how much physical punishment McClane endures and how such wear amasses on him through the course of the film.” Or how wear doesn’t amass through the film – by the end of the movie, John’s lost his shirt alongside his shoes, and heads into his final confrontation with Hans almost stripped bare. SASHA PERL-RAVER Girl, what isn’t broken inside of John McClane? His marriage is broken, the smoking is broken, the bare feet - the bare feet is such a great example of a character whose vulnerability you just can't avoid. He obviously has a lot of interpersonal stuff going on with his wife, with his family, with wanting to save all these people. Also with just wanting to be good at his job. But you don't like the physical embodiment of it, as you see him get more like, cut up and bloodied, as he's running through the glass to get to exit, all of that stuff is such a great way to make the character somebody who you're like, “Oh, I see that.” I wonder if the movie got made now, if they would have allowed him to get his bloodied up as he does. Because he looks messed up by the end of the film, as well he should. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN And that’s part of the fun of the movie. You watch him – they really put him through the ringer. He gets the crap beaten out of him in that movie, in a way that doesn’t really happen in the sequels as much. That’s kind of fun – you feel like he’s running this gauntlet, and at the end, when he wins, he earns it. He earns the right to kill Hans and save his marriage, because he’s really been put through hell by this entire experience. And again that goes back to the making him human: he’s bleeding, and he’s tired, and he’s angry and frustrated, and he’s reacting like a heightened human being would react as opposed to just a cartoon movie hero. The obvious physical manifestation of John’s vulnerability is his cut up feet. John was caught by surprise by the terrorist takeover, in the middle of a quiet moment when he is practically defenseless. But it’s his emotional vulnerability that makes us feel for him. And how the filmmakers show John’s emotional vulnerability is nothing short of genius. Deep Focus Review: “Some of McClane’s best moments are by himself as he talks himself through the situation. Whereas stone-faced lone heroes had machine-gunned their way through countless bad guys in action movies before, McClane just an average cop, after all, not even a super-cop... In this unpolished treatment of McClane, and the character’s ability to make observations about his own situation, he becomes instantly ‘real’ when compared to his unstoppable counterparts.” [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - WHY DIDN’T YOU STOP THEM] KATIE WALSH You know, I love when he’s talking to himself when he’s alone in the building, and I think the script as kind of brilliant in the sense that he gets the radios, and so he can talk to everybody. They're all in different spots in the building, But he can talk to Al, he can talk to Hans, he can talk to all these different people. And that really keeps the story moving, and it also lets us understand him as a person and the way he presents himself. So I think that the way that they function the radios in that whole thing is so brilliant in terms of storytelling. But I also love when he’s just talking to himself, and he’s like “No, John, why didn’t you stop them, John.” And you can tell, he’s kind of got like anxiety or something, he’s, you know. Like, that's what I would say to myself if I was in that situation. “Aw, darn it, why did you do that?” So you relate to him in that way ‘cause you are getting some insight into his psyche. It’s not like you can’t understand him. You totally understand him. One scene in particular is the perfect example of John’s physical and emotional vulnerabilities intersecting. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN AND AL - BATHROOM] To quote Empire Magazine, “McClane has narrowly escaped a gunfight and holes up in a bathroom to remove shards of jagged glass from his shredded feet. As he does so, McClane has a heartfelt back-and-forth with Reginald VelJohnson’s Al Powell, an LA flatfoot with whom he has forged a brotherly connection over a walkie-talkie. As their dialogue exchange continues, McClane — alone, badly injured and afraid — breaks down and starts sobbing. [In] Willis, audiences were suddenly confronted with a recognisably vulnerable hero who didn’t have all the answers, who didn’t laugh — or stoically squint — in the face of danger or death. Sure, he cracked wise, but his humour felt organic, a defence mechanism to keep him sane. Here was a hero who made Arnie and his muscle-bound ilk seem antiquated.” John’s relationships with other people are what keeps him going. His trying to ensure Holly’s safety is his sole motive throughout the movie. The thought of her helps him to push through his fear and pain. But it’s also his walkie-talkie relationship with fellow cop Al Powell that gives him the extra, in-the-moment support to stave off despair. SASHA PERL-RAVER What is the most important vulnerabilities that he has, is his yearning to be back with his wife. The relationship he has with Bonnie Bedelia, wanting to keep her safe, wanting to make sure that the mother of his child is okay, that’s huge. But also I love the relationship he has with Al, I think that's really, really special, and the way that he's able to latch on to this voice through the radio and they have such a strong bond and connection, is really beautiful. It’s bromance the way we wanna see it. Dudes supporting other dudes in this great way. From his feet to his emotions, from his relationship with his wife to his battle with the terrorists, John McClane’s story is a perfect example of external and internal conflict aligning. As Script Secrets puts it, “But what makes Die Hard into a superior script is the nexus between the Villain's Plan and the Protagonist's character arc... What makes John McClane the perfect protagonist for Die Hard is that the external conflict forces him to confront and solve an internal conflict, leading to a single solution which solves both problems and brings peace to the protagonist. It is only after he faces and conquers this internal conflict that he becomes strong enough to take on Hans (his external conflict) and rescue Holly and the other hostages. Without the external conflict from Hans' Plan, McClane would not have been forced to resolve this problem, and their marriage would have ended. The resolution for the external conflict and internal conflict intersect, creating a strong, organic plot.” Shannon Hubbell, editor-in-chief of LewtonBus.net. SHANNON HUBBELL And also, beyond the fact that he just happens to be there in the building, and he wants to get the bad guys and he wants to save all the hostages, he's there for an emotional reason. He shows up having screwed up his relationship with his wife. And he wants to save her. He has an emotional connection to what he's trying to do. Going back to Under Siege, Segal's character in that is just a cook who used to be a Navy Seal. And he just happens to be in the ship, and there's no real motivation for him being a total action movie bad ass other than him just naturally being an action movie bad ass. So yeah, McClane is extremely relatable. He wants to save his wife, he wants to preserve the relationship with his wife. And also by extension his kids and whatnot. He's a person who happens to be pretty damn good at killing people. SIMONE: Well you know the best arcs are the ones that we are on the outside what's happening on the inside. So he's literally fighting to save his wife. SHANNON: Yeah, absolutely. JEREMIAH FRIEDMAN And I would say the closest he comes to really arcing is the bathroom scene, when he’s pulling the glass out of his feet, and he’s on the radio with Karl – er, Al, not Carl Winslow… He’s on the radio with Al, and he kind of gives up and starts thinking that he’s not going to make it out. And he takes responsibility for the failure of his marriage. I think that’s pretty much an arc. I mean, he’s able to get someplace emotionally he wasn’t able to get earlier in the movie and from that, he kind of earns the epiphany of “what was Hans doing on the roof?” And then he goes up to the roof and there’s the C4 and all that stuff. But even with the impeccably plotted script and carefully built character of John McClane, the role could have easily fallen flat without that third element: the actor. (Or Fifth Element, heyo.) Remember, they wanted to cast pretty much anyone BUT Bruce Willis as the lead for this movie. They looked at everyone from Schwarzennegger and Stallone to Don Johnson and Richard Gere to Burt Reynolds and Robert De Niro. In the end, they took a huge, five million dollar gamble on Bruce Willis. But it worked. ADAM STERNBERGH But I think if you were to watch Die Hard and Raiders of the Lost Ark side by side, there’s something about the Indiana Jones character that seems a little bit more well-rounded than the John McClane character. But at the same time, you know, you might even say that about watching Casablanca or something like that. I mean, there’s many actors and many great characters in Hollywood history where the lead performance is essentially the actor’s extraordinary charisma carrying it, and it’s not something that any other actor could have brought to the role. And so sometimes I think you know, lightning just strikes and you end up with the right person in the right role and so in many ways I just feel like John McClane was, like, Bruce Willis; he was the embodiment of whatever it was that people loved about Bruce Willis, this kind of irascible, indefatigable charm that he had. SASHA PERL-RAVER I think that Bruce Willis certainly is a better actor. And is therefore better able to get the pathos across, and able to really deliver the lines without feeling like you learned them phonetically. Which is something you get a lot of in Schwarzenegger's early performances and even later performances.  SCOTT WAMPLER Well I also think Bruce Willis is an asshole but not a lovable one. I think the Bruce Willis at that point in his career, though, is not the Bruce Willis that we know today. You know, he was still humble, he started out as a bartender. I think Bruce Willis, when he made Die Hard, even though he had been on Moonlighting and was still kind of hot shit at that time, was – he hadn’t developed the full Bruce Willis ego that has sort of come to define him in his later years. People knew who he was because of Moonlighting, and a series of very entertaining Bartles & Jaymes commercials that I would encourage all of your listeners to go find on YouTube. That will make your fucking skin crawl with embarrassment. [CLIP - BRUCE WILLIS SEAGRAM'S COMMERCIAL] But, you know, he was not a Stallone or a Schwarzenegger. He wasn’t even a Van Damme. He was a guy. He was just a dude. And still doing Bogart a little bit. He’s still got that earthiness to him. SHANNON HUBBELL But also before die-hard established him as an action hero, much like Kurt Russell in Escape From New York, That was the first action role for Kurt Russell. He was in Disney movies before that. He was in The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes. And then John Carpenter put an eye patch on him and some tattoos and told him to growl. And now he's an action star. And it was kind of the same thing with Bruce Willis. He was more of a comedic actor as I recall, before that. Again tying in with the idea of McClane being more relatable, everyman-ish action hero, having someone who's completely not associated with the action genre before that, really makes that character work. He's just a dude. He's just a balding dude. KATIE WALSH But yeah, he’s charming, he’s funny, he’s a better actor. He’s got the gift of gab. It’s a different star persona and it’s a different acting ability, completely. John McTiernan has said something similar. “Bruce is most endearing when he’s being a smart-ass. That’s the essence of his stardom is somebody’s pointing a gun right between his eyes and he goes, ‘Oops.’ That irreverence is what we seem to love about him.” Willis even improvised the “Hi, honey” at the end of the movie. [CLIP - DIE HARD - JOHN - HI HONEY] As Empire Magazine put it, “It’s testament to Willis that he not only thwarts Gruber’s heist, but also Rickman’s own audacious attempt to walk away with a multi-million dollar movie. Willis’ performance in Die Hard is hungry and committed, redolent of a man visiting the Last Chance Saloon, and it worked handsomely, turning him into a bona fide megastar. What’s more, his McClane — a likeable mix of working-stiff neuroses, desperate heroics and wise guy sardonics — changed the face of action heroes forever.” In the end, Bruce Willis’s John McClane gave us someone to root for. All of the character’s influences, from reacting to other action heroes to Gary Cooper to Bruce Willis himself, create someone who is… a human. And no matter what extraordinary things we see onscreen, telling human stories is where film is most powerful. It’s why Die Hard rises above its peers – all thanks to John McClane. In our next episode, we’ll take a look at John’s wife Holly. Whether she goes by Gennaro or McClane, Holly’s role as a working woman, a wife, and a mother brings forward the changing role of women in 1980s film. Thank you to our guests Jeremiah Friedman, Sasha Perl-Raver, Scott Wampler, Reed Fish, Adam Sternbergh, Katie Walsh, and Shannon Hubbell. Be sure to check the show notes on the website to learn more about them. Thanks again for joining me, and yippee-kai-yay, motherfuckers!

Advice to actors who would like a 30+ year career in Hollywood. Listen to Jim Cody Williams tell his story today on The Doorpost Podcast Project!   Jim Cody Williams graduated from the University of Arizona with a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in 1984.  His first role in a major film was in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure in 1987. Jim's appearance as the "bearded cowboy" was the beginning of many roles to follow.   Television roles for this prolific actor include appearances in The Young Riders, Renegade, Silk Stalkings, Ellen, Babylon 5, Pacific Blue, The Simple Life, L.A. Heat, The X-Files, The Drew Carey Show, ER, Deadwood, The Shield, Charmed, Carnivale, Numb3rs CSI, Sons of Anarchy, Criminal Minds, and Chosen.   On film he appeared in Steel Frontier, Black Out, Trial and Error, Traffic, Dark Blue and Torque.  He did some uncredited stunt work in Independence Day, Sledge: The Untold Story and The Alibi.  He also appeared in Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story, The Dukes of Hazzard movie, I'm Reed Fish, Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest, Dark Ride, Letters from the Big Man and Adrenaline.     He also appeared in the short film Huntin' and most recently, Times Like Dying.