Refugia

Father Pete Nunally is the founder of Water and Wilderness Church, a Washington DC-based outdoor church and watershed community. You can read more about the model of Water and Wilderness Church here. Father Pete is a passionate and well-spoken advocate on his social media pages and other forums, as in this interview with Creation Justice Ministries.Many thanks to Father Pete and the lovely group of people who welcomed Ron and me to Fletcher's Cove to worship with them last May. Winter? No problem. They worship outside anyway. Father Pete and some very faithful ducks.TRANSCRIPTPete Nunnally And so this expression and experience of worship begins to expand, and I think people are really looking for that. They want the church to tell them and to show them that God is everywhere, and that particularly in the natural world, the theological thumbprint of God is on all of this, and there's not a distinction or separation, but actually there's a union.Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I'm your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We're exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we're paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship.Today, I'm talking with Father Pete Nunnally, founder of Water and Wilderness Church. Father Pete is an Episcopal priest with a tender heart and a sense of adventure. The Water and Wilderness community meets outdoors for worship in several locations around the Washington DC area, adapting traditional worship forums in ways that enrich our encounter with God by reconnecting us with the rivers and trees and sky around us. Water and Wilderness is also a dispersed community, connecting anyone anywhere through online book studies, in-person retreats, and more. I talked with Father Pete outdoors, of course, at Fletcher's Cove on the Potomac River, just before joining their outdoor worship service. This interview includes a bonus trivia component. For extra points, see if you can identify the birds that join our conversation in the second half of the episode. Let's get to it.Debra Rienstra Father Pete, thanks so much for being with me today.Pete Nunnally I'm so glad to be here.Debra Rienstra It's great to talk to you. So let's start with what Water and Wilderness Church is right now. You're not a traditional congregation with a building. What are you, exactly?Pete Nunnally We are a church. We're an outdoor worshiping community geographically located in DC, but we are also a watershed community of the heart and worked in a lot of churches, and everything that that church did, wherever I was, was really only for the people at that church. But what's different about Water and Wilderness Church is the concept of watershed community. So the local community here in DC is like a wellspring, and out of that flow tributaries that go all over the country, and we create this watershed. And I use that word to mean both the watershed of a new idea or a new understanding of something, but also, like our physical watersheds are so important to us. And so anybody, anywhere—what I often say is Water and Wilderness Church, what we do is for anybody, anywhere, all the time. So if you are in Indiana, Arizona, California, these are states where we have people that are actively engaged in some of our online formation and things like that. That everything we do is for everyone, and most importantly, for the benefit of the earth.Debra Rienstra I wanted to ask about whether watershed was both literal and metaphorical for you, and it definitely is. You've also described Water and Wilderness Church as a threshold space. So what does that mean to you?Pete Nunnally I am influenced by so many of my friends that don't go to church anymore, and so many folks that label themselves spiritual but not religious. They just aren't going to go into a traditional church building. And I want to take what's beautiful and valuable about our Christian tradition, and I'm Episcopalian, so, you know, the Episcopal version of the mainline expression, and translate that and then bring it out to where people are. My sister, during Covid, said they take walks on Sunday morning with her family in different parks. And she said, “I get more out of that than I do going to church. I don't think we're going to go back to church.” And I thought, man, I get that. And when I tell that to priests and other church people, they nod their head and they say, like, yeah. Some of them are like, “I wish I could take a walk on Sunday morning.” Like, well, how can we receive this reality that people are living into, and they really are searching and seeking deep spiritual connection, but they're forced to take an a la carte approach. Like I walk in the woods and I get peace there, or I read a book by Thich Nhat Hanh, and I get a little bit of peace. I do you know, like a little bit of divinity here, a little bit of divinity there. Nothing that grounds all of that together. So to me, to take what's ancient, holy and divine about our Christian tradition and what we understand about God, and then to bring it out of the doors of the church, but with integrity, into the wild places, engraft our worship onto the worship of God that is creation. And I think that's what I mean when I say a threshold space. Like this is the world. This is the human world, this is the natural world. And then we sometimes just hide all of our really juicy, beautiful stuff about the Christian life as we've understood it for 2000 years, and we kind of lock that up into the church. And so we're trying to bring that out of the church and in a way that has integrity, but is in new spaces and lowering barriers for entry for people.Debra Rienstra Yeah, so you're responding to this kind of pervasive alienation between people and the natural world. One of the things I read on your website, and one of the things that you've said frequently, is, “What's good for the earth is good for the soul.” Yeah. Say a little more about how that phrase is meaningful for you.Pete Nunnally I think we forget that we are part of the community of creation. This is a phrase I got from you.Debra Rienstra Well, I got it from Randy Woodley.Pete Nunnally Randy, what a great writer and theologian. And so for a long time, we've forgotten that. Did you know our Christian tradition is an indigenous tradition, really? And we've scrubbed all of that away. You know the concept of Ubuntu, the African concept of “I am because you are,” and I cannot be a person if you're not a person. So like the sacred in me recognizes the sacred in you. Like we understand that African sort of understanding that Desmond Tutu and others talk about, but what if we looked at creation the same way? That we can't be fully human unless the wild world that God created is free to be itself also. And we do. We've isolated ourselves from this world, like nobody knows—we're eating foods that are out of season all year round, and kids grow up and they think that the food comes from the grocery store. And yet, part of what draws us out into the world—see, part of why I like worshiping here is there's just people around. And you know, like they wanted to come and just be by the river today.Debra Rienstra Explain where we are today.Pete Nunnally We are at a place called Fletcher's Cove and Boathouse. It is a park along the Potomac River in DC proper. And once you get in, kind of the whole place opens up. There's forest that goes right up into the river. And actually, the Potomac River is tidal in this area, believe it or not, we still have tides all the way up here, and it's a beautiful place. All kinds of people come to the edge of the river to enjoy themselves. It's incredibly diverse: people of different nationalities, and celebrating birthdays and graduations and beautiful days. And I like to worship here because you have the combination of people, but also, it really is forest along the river, and so the trees are down and slowly giving themselves back to the earth, and you're interrupted sometimes by, in our worship, by what's going on in the natural world. And of course, that's not an interruption, it's just what God brings us next. So we have migratory birds and blue herons, and the shad run is just about over, but shad and herring come up the river to spawn, and that brings fishermen out along the river, including myself. And so you get to experience a fuller version of what happens in the world when you're in a wild place, and when you worship in that same space over and over again, you get to know it through the seasons, and it gets to know you. So we become known to the trees and the river when we continue to come back over and over.Debra Rienstra Yeah. So you do outdoor worship, but you have other things going on too. So describe some of the other things that you do.Pete Nunnally Well, we do Zoom book studies. Our very first one was Refugia Faith.Debra Rienstra Oh, I've heard that's good.Pete Nunnally It's really well written, insightful, highly recommend to everyone. And that's exciting, because we have 20 to 30 people from all over the country who join and it really is a community of the heart, like, “Oh, I believe that I see God in nature.” And a lot of these folks come from a Christian background, but their traditional worship, it's not doing it for them anymore. And they want to be validated, because you feel so alone when you're like, “I love Jesus. I grew up with church, but I don't think it's responding to the times that we're in,” and when the world is on fire and our planet needs us so much, so often the church is silent or has trouble finding out what to do. So to me, the natural world is going to show us what to do, and the more we come out here together and graft our worship onto—take the wisdom that we have and add it to the wisdom of nature and the ecology of God, then we're going to know what to do and cultivate a love of something, then you can really do something. So just to add one more thing on top of that, we do in-person retreats. And those are really, really fun. Next week, we're going to the Chincoteague Bay Field Stations, an educational marine lab, and they take us into the field, and they teach us about the marine environment. So we're learning about how barrier islands are formed, or, you know, dropping a net down and bringing up sea urchins and sea sponges. And we really get to experience and see what's underneath the surface of the water. And then we apply that to our spiritual life and see, not only is God amazing and all these things like—there's just the granularity of what God has has brought into this world, but then we can see where our faith can grow and our understanding of God can grow by encountering things we haven't seen before.Debra Rienstra Yeah. So I often ask people about their spark point, so the moment when you began to realize the urgency of the climate crisis. What was that point for you?Pete Nunnally I'm a fisherman, and fishing populations have been going down. I read a really wonderful book called Beautiful Swimmers by Warren Wilson; it won the Pulitzer Prize in the 70s about the Chesapeake Bay and the waterman. Even then he was talking about how the watermen were saying that the bay is sick. And I grew up here in the Delmarva area, seeing the sign “Save the Bay” and things like that, but it wasn't personal to me until I started spending more time there and and you can see like the effects of hardened barriers versus living shorelines at the end of the people's property. And that the fish population is leaving, like they're moving. And some of the charter captains that I know talk about like there are no stripers in the river, in the bay anymore. I mean, there are some, but the water is too warm, so they go north and they don't come back south. And then when I started doing Water and Wilderness Church, that was really an important entry point for me as well.Debra Rienstra How did you get other people involved in water and wilderness church? When was the moment where you said we need to worship outside and I need to gather people? How did that all work?Pete Nunnally Well, it started because we were at the end of Covid. We were kind of inside, kind of not. And I'm an old camp counselor, and I said, “I think...I think we can do this outside. And I'm pretty sure it all used to be outside.” And so many stories of Jesus: he's talking to people at the edge of the Sea of Galilee. He's talking to them, they're hiking up a mountain. Like these are things that we can actually do. And so these are rituals. And we walked and talked during Water and Wilderness Church. And so I just started it and said, “Hey, does anybody want to do this?” And some people came out of necessity, because we didn't really have a lot of church stuff going on.Debra Rienstra Yeah, this is at your parish?Pete Nunnally My church, yeah, St. Mary's in Arlington. And every Sunday we did it. We did twice a month. I thought, this is the Sunday no one's going to come. And people just kept coming. 23 people came in a snowstorm. Well, not a snow storm, but it was snowing. And the weather was bad, and people would bring hot cider. And when the weather was hot, they'd bring cold lemonade. And, you know, kids started bringing their instruments. So then we had this little homegrown, intergenerational band that started leading the music, and all I did was just keep showing up and saying, “I think this is good.” And then, you know, a beaver comes in the middle of our homily one day, and now all the attention is on this beaver that, Ron, is the size of you. It's a humongous beaver, and it slaps his tail like you see in the cartoons. And so this expression and experience of worship begins to expand. And I think people are really looking for that. They want the church to tell them and to show them that God is everywhere, and that particularly in the natural world, the theological thumbprint of God is on all of this. And there's not a distinction or separation, but actually there's a union. I grew up on four acres and a semi rural area right across from the Potomac, further up river. So I grew up playing in the creeks and the rivers, and spent a long time away from that, and during Covid, kind of came back to it. And as a priest, everything looked different after my seminary training. And I'm like, “Wow, this whole thing is magic. This whole thing is a miracle.” I mean, the river, it's the same river, and it's never the same river. We're here, and y'all can see this, but we just had major flooding in DC, and hundreds and hundreds of massive logs have washed up so far up, no one has seen it this far up and it's closed the road down here. And there's this immense redistribution of what used to be. And I think there's a spiritual biomimicry that we're trying to get at when we worship out here as well.Debra RienstraHi, it's me, Debra. If you are enjoying this podcast episode, go ahead and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. If you have a minute, leave a review. Good reviews help more listeners discover this podcast. To keep up with all the Refugia news, I invite you to subscribe to the Refugia newsletter on Substack. This is my fortnightly newsletter for people of faith who care about the climate crisis and want to go deeper. Every two weeks, I feature climate news, deeper dives, refugia sightings and much more. Join our community at refugianewsletter.substack.com. For even more goodies, including transcripts and show notes for this podcast, check out my website at debrarienstra.com. D-E-B-R-A-R-I-E-N-S-T-R-A dot com. Thanks so much for listening. We're glad you're part of this community. And now back to the interview.Debra Rienstra So you served as a rector for a long time, and now you're serving as the wilderness priest. So what has that dialectic been for you between traditional congregational life and what you're doing now? And maybe there's people in your community who are still doing normal church, so to speak, and also part of this. So talk about that dialectic a little bit.Pete Nunnally Yeah, when we began Water and Wilderness Church, I talked a lot about it being a good compliment, and that is—for anybody trying to do something new, it's a great way to position your new idea relative to the traditional authorities. And it is. People that are formed traditionally can see and understand what we're trying to do out here. And people say that they're like, I see the Episcopal, the mainline underpinnings of what's going on. On the other side, for people who are spiritual but not religious—and just so many good reasons to be that—I really want to affirm the journey that the church needs to take in order to repent and to worship God with integrity and consistency. But the deeper roots that we have as an ancient tradition, and as we were saying earlier, as originally, the followers of Jesus were following an indigenous tradition, and the people of Israel as well. But what the experience of worship is, we do Eucharist, but I tell the story of salvation in a way that's, I think, right size for people and personalized for people. The language in our Book of Common Prayer as Episcopalians is exquisite in some places. Also still has some language that can be interpreted as penal substitutionary atonement. And we wonder why people have that view, and it's kind of baked in in some of our stuff. So how can we focus on the story of Jesus to somebody who has never heard of Jesus, that's what I'm thinking. You're a spiritual person, or you love nature, and somebody invites you and says, “Hey, there's this church. I know you've been looking for more community, so you can't be spiritual in isolation. And maybe you could come here. It's kind of a church, but it's more relatable.” But we're not gonna get rid of Jesus. You know? So what does Jesus mean to somebody? Why do we need the Eucharist, for example?Debra Rienstra So talk about ritual, especially because one of the things I've been thinking about is the importance of ritual, and the way that people of faith are stewards of ritual. We have the sacraments, our sort of central rituals, but we also have other rituals, and you're adapting an Episcopalian flavored Eucharist in particular, maybe baptism too. Is it different when you do those outdoors? What do you do that's the same? What do you do that's a little different? How does it feel different when you're doing those rituals outdoors?Pete Nunnally When I was in my liturgy class, our professor—I fought with him a lot. Praying shapes believing was like the thing. And just to talk about the Episcopal thing, this is a mainline, this is for everybody, like the church needs to break down the barriers of denominations and all the rest. So this is really for everybody, but I'm an Episcopal priest. But I think the rituals become alive to me when they're done out here, and they are changed and translated sometimes. So when I tell the story of salvation, like typically we hold the bread and wine up at the end and say, “These are the gifts of God.” And when I started doing it outside, I said, “Well, hell. Like all of this is a gift from God.” And when you're inside, it's still all of this, but it's different when you say, “Look at the river, look at the sky.” This is all—and they say, “look at one another,” like you are all gifts of God. But I never would have come to that point without doing it outside. And then we say, “Take them and remember that Christ died for you and feed on him in your hearts by faith.” And I've never really liked that, because there's this sort of like, “Remember that Christ died, you know, and you should feel a little bit bad about it.” Christ died for you—and I thought, that's not what the Eucharist is really about. The Eucharist is about Christ living for us. And so I said, “Take this and remember that Christ lives for you, that love and justice and mercy and forgiveness, they live for you, with you and in you. And that is what these things are.” That's what we're about.Debra Rienstra So the way I've learned about the Eucharist is it's remembrance, communion, and hope. So it is remembrance of sacrifice, but it's also right now, communion with Christ, communion with each other, and then this kind of eschatological hope. But we do often in various traditions tend to get stuck in the remembrance part, and we miss the communion and the hope part. The hope for the feast to come, right? The heavenly feast to come, the ultimate telos. So even just doing it outdoors triggers that a little bit.Pete Nunnally Yeah, and this river is at least a million years old. And so when you're in an ancient place, in a regenerative place, all these logs are eventually going to become soil somewhere and feed on itself and to sustain the next thing—that's the communion of saints that we are part of. It's not just the people we read about in the Bible. It's us too, no different than the disciples, the women that supported Jesus's ministry.Debra Rienstra Have you ever seen the Cathedral of the Angels in Los Angeles? It has these beautiful murals on both sides of the nave, and it's depictions of famous saints, but then mixed in are regular Angelenos. The artists—just so that sense that we're all a part of this community is amazing.Pete Nunnally One more thing on ritual is that we we've had rituals pop up here—Debra Rienstra —That was my next question!Pete Nunnally —that we do now. Somebody, about a year in, somebody came and said, “Hey, Father Pete, there's always different groups of people here. It's like some come pretty regularly, and we have some new people. And how about every time, every beginning, we introduce ourselves and say one thing we're grateful for.” And I was like, “Lucinda, that's a great idea.”Debra Rienstra So simple.Pete Nunnally It's so simple, but can you imagine going to your priest or pastor at home and being like, “I have an idea for how we should start the service now”? Like, it's impossible to do. But so we do that every single time, and we circle up so the shape of us changes. When we gather, we're individuals, kind of a mob, and then we circle up so you see somebody says at traditional church—which, by the way, I love traditional church. But they say, “I go to church, I sit in a pew and I see the back of people's heads,” but at Water and Wilderness Church, we're circled up. I see your face. But yeah, so that's a tradition or a ritual here of offering ourselves up to God by speaking our name and beginning with gratitude.Debra Rienstra Yeah. Do you see a role for the church in—I don't want to say inventing, because that can make people nervous—but in, let's call it stewarding ritual, not just the sacraments, but other kinds of ritual that people really need in a moment of crisis, maybe rituals of lament, thanksgiving, as you suggest, other sorts of threshold type rituals that we really need as we deal with this moment of crisis?Pete Nunnally Do I see the church being able to do that?Debra Rienstra Yeah. Is what you're doing a kind of experiment in thinking about what what my husband Ron Rienstra would call liturgical shenanigans?Pete Nunnally Yeah, I think so. And I think that—again, like I'm from a highly liturgical tradition. We're just not able to change that much, you know? We'll have a season of creation, which we did last year, my traditional church, you know, I love those resources. They're great, but everything else is exactly the same, and so we save different words. But what I like to think that we're inviting people into is an alternative way of being in the world based on Jesus's radical love. And one way to do that is to do this outside and let our worship be informed by something that's been here a lot longer than we have.Debra Rienstra Yeah, yeah. So I wonder if there's something about these sort of experimental spaces that effectively can jar traditional churches, which I also love, but jar us into being a little more inventive, a little more attentive to the moment, by doing something so different, you know, we can learn from your example in more traditional churches and congregations and say, “You know, it's not so scary to try stuff.” We tried stuff during the pandemic too. And honestly, I really miss being outside and hearing the birds worship with us, essentially. You know, I feel like worship is not complete without birdies! But we, I think churches so often just say, “Well, let's just do things how we always do them,” because it's already hard, but to have experimental spaces like yours, where you're just trying stuff and it's fine and you're actually discovering riches and richness that you wouldn't have discovered otherwise. Okay, but true confession time. What do you miss about traditional worship in a sanctuary, high Episcopal sort of traditional worship, if anything?Pete Nunnally What we're still working on is how to build lament in every time. And I like the confession of sin and the absolution. It's important to me, and it's important for everybody. Again, you know, our spiritual-but-not-religious brothers and sisters, I'm with you. I totally get it. I'm first in line to criticize the church. But if our spirituality is just what feels good to us, then we're never brought into that place of pain, and in reality, the reality of ourselves in our lives, and then the reality of God's forgiveness and sustenance and redemption. And confession is a big piece of that, particularly in the natural world, we have done so much and continue to do things to harm your planet.Debra Rienstra I guess I would not have guessed that your first thing would be confession. But it suggests that there are these theological wisdoms that come from practice and reflection over centuries of the church, and you're in a place now where you're thinking through where our emphasis needs to go, and maybe lean away from, so maybe leaning away from our sort of focus on buildings and programs. And leaning into some of these deeper things. There's certainly advantages to buildings and programs, right? But what sort of theological ideas, or even—I don't know practice is the right word—but what sort of theological ideas or practices do you feel we need to really lean into right now, at this moment?Pete Nunnally Obviously, I think we need to go outside, like do it outside.Debra Rienstra Maybe lean into that kinship with all creation. That's part of the tradition, but...Pete Nunnally We're not on top of it. We're supposed to be within it. And the body of Christ is not just humans, it is the natural world as well. I look out, the river is—we're water people, and I did a river baptism last week.Debra Rienstra Did you?Pete Nunnally Yeah, down in Petersburg, Virginia, and it was amazing—to have everybody on the bank, and we walked out into the river and took this little baby, Rixie, and dunked her in three times. And it's hard not to feel there's the intimacy of God in that moment, because it is a flowing river that's connected then, to the James River, which goes to the bay, which goes to the ocean. There again, with the communion of saints and this interconnectedness, I think we just run away from God in so many different ways. And one way is that we hide away from this natural world.Debra Rienstra Yeah, and people are so hungry for embodiment. So to me, connecting embodied ritual with the world is a deeply incarnational response, right? If we really believe, as you say, that Christ is incarnate, then we can't forget that we are bodies on a planet. So that, to me, is where you know something like a river baptism just—sorry about this, but overflows with the resonance of our embodiment and with incarnational theology. So two final questions: where is Water and Wilderness Church headed? Your goal is not growth. You don't have a building to deal with or programs to continue. So what is the goal for you? Where are you envisioning the future for Water and Wilderness Church?Pete Nunnally I do want to grow, but one of the goals is to show—when I was younger, and people would say like, “Oh, you know, understand your life, and then like, you'll find what you really want to do.” And Buechner talks about your vocation is where the “world's deep hunger and your deep gladness meet.” And it was about a year into doing this before I realized, like, oh, my whole life makes sense. So I grew up outside. Fished a lot. I've loved church. I went to church camp, and was always confused by the gap between this embodied reality of God in community at camp and then we go to church, very sacred space, but very, very different and not as embodied to me, and... what was the question?Debra Rienstra The question is, what do you envision the future of Water and Wilderness Church to be?Pete Nunnally I have always kind of felt like I'm on the outside of things, but that situates me very well to do something like this. And I think the future is that we continue to offer this, and this is a church community, so we're going to build a community of people, and our building will draw, you know, 20 or 30 people here today to worship in this way, and draw people in who've been waiting for something like this. Henry Ford said, if he'd asked people, they would have said they wanted a faster horse. Nobody knew they wanted a car until they got that opportunity to have one. And so that's a little bit of what this: “Hey, you can do it like this,” and it's not just all woo, woo, making up stuff. It's true woo. It's true, but it has these ancient roots. We're not getting rid of the central reason why we're here. We're just opening it up and letting God speak to us through nature. And I see tributaries all over the place. I see this as a movement. So we hopefully will keep a monthly service in Delaware. I want to have a monthly service in Maryland, in DC, obviously, weekly here in Virginia, and so that for people on our border from North Carolina, they're like, “I want to be on a board so that I can help this come to us in North Carolina.” Yeah, it's particularly people with neurodivergent kids. Like worshiping in nature is an incredible way for them to encounter God. It's so hard to sit still and pay attention to a traditional service. So I want to see wherever you go, you know, in six or seven months...wherever you go in the country...Debra Rienstra Hmm, six or seven months, huh?Pete Nunnally No, but eventually that there will be churches like this all over. And there are some. I think what's different about us versus some of the other expressions, is that we are faithful and have integrity to our Christian tradition, but it's really an act of recovery. We're not making anything up. We're just remembering what our spiritual forebears used to know about the wisdom of creation as it relates to God's ecology and our own personal lives. So I want to see churches like this in every state, in different places. We do it in DC, and people are always like, “Oh my gosh, you should do it in this very remote, beautiful place. “And I'll be like, “Well, I'd love to do that...” The highly populated areas, cities like DC and New York and Boston...the need is so great for people to be pulled off of the hamster wheel, because everybody wants to climb a ladder, you're going to realize it's leaning against the wrong wall. You get to the top, and you're like, “This isn't what I wanted.” All that work and effort. So my vision of the future is that there are multiple Water and Wilderness Churches. That's not a new concept. Evangelical churches and multisite churches all over the place, and it wouldn't be like that at all.Debra Rienstra Yeah, you're just prototyping, and people can find an expression.Pete Nunnally Somebody has to show other people that you can do it this way, and you can get it funded and make it self-sustaining. The watershed community is part of how we keep that self-sustaining, because you can encounter and you have touch points with our Zoom book studies, or with the videos that I do, or the blog or other resources. It's this gathering movement, this rising of the tide of spirituality that really is, like it's going to happen, because people—I talk to so many people and they're like, “Yeah, I don't go to church anymore, but I would go to that church.”Debra Rienstra That's something.Pete Nunnally They're like, “I would do that. I can't do this because it reminds me of past harm or hypocrisy or whatever, but I would do something like that.”Debra Rienstra It answers a deep, deep need that people don't always have the words for. But, as you say, when they see the possibility, something in them says, “Yes, that's what I'm looking for.”Pete Nunnally Yeah, Debra, and like me too. I still don't have the right words to express what happens to me when we do this. All I know is that I have to do this, and it's not easy. It'd be a lot easier to take a nice-paying, traditional church job with a staff, and you know, this regular stuff, but it's not what God wants me to do.Debra Rienstra Well, thank you so much for talking to me today. I have one final question: favorite fish, favorite fishing spot?Pete Nunnally My favorite fish would be, I mean, I sure love fishing for catfish, but that's a lot of hanging around. I would say redfish, and I like to fish down in the Northern Neck, which is where the Potomac and the Rappahannock and the York rivers go into the Chesapeake Bay. So the bottom end of those rivers are all salt water and they're just exquisite. So it's just so beautiful. And I love chasing down those redfish. Tastes delicious.Debra Rienstra Well, happy fishing. And thank you again so much for talking to me today.Pete Nunnally Thank you. Thanks, Debra.Debra Rienstra Thanks for joining us for show notes and full transcripts, please visit debrarienstra.com and click on the Refugia Podcast tab. This season of the Refugia Podcast is produced with generous funding from the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. Colin Hoogerwerf is our awesome audio producer. Thanks to Ron Rienstra for content consultation as well as technical and travel support. Till next time, be well. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Doug Kaufman directs the Anabaptist Climate Collaborative, an organization that leads climate justice initiatives from an Anabaptist faith perspective. Doug and his team support Mennonite and other Anabaptist churches, helping to build networks, train leaders, and empower climate-related initiatives. Doug describes environmental work as a form of peacemaking, a way of countering the slow violence of actions that cause and exacerbate climate change. Thanks to Doug for geeking out with me on theology and offering some glimpses of Mennonite climate work.Explore some of Doug's writing on climate advocacy here.In this episode, we highlight several Anabaptist faith communities who are pursuing climate justice through simple, sustainable living:* The Taftsville Chapel and their climate initiative called the Schoolhouse for Simple Living* Doug's “Mennonite cookbook canon”:* More-with-Less Cookbook by Doris Longacre* Simply in Season by Mary Beth Lind and Cathleen Hockman-Wert* Extending the Table by Joetta Handrich Schlabach* Sustainable Kitchen by Heather Wolfe and Jaynie McCloskey This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Dave Celesky founded called Redeem MI Land, a nonprofit organization inspiring communities of faith in Michigan to invest personally in land restoration projects. Dave describes how his home church, Unity Reformed in Norton Shores, Michigan, has supported the very first Redeem MI Land project, creating a prototype for other communities to follow. Dave's church is also joining a cohort of A Rocha USA, an organization that supports Christian communities in doing environmental restoration work and integrating love for creation more deeply into congregational life.Many thanks to Dave for hosting Ron and me one sunny afternoon as we visited the worksite now in the process of restoration from an old garbage dump to a healthy meadow and wetland. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

In this episode, Rev. Dr. Heber Brown, founder of the Black Food Security Network, describes how experimenting with one small church garden led to connections with other churches and then with farmers and eventually to a transformed ecosystem—in this case, a food shed. This inspiring refugia story weaves through health justice, food security, and climate resilience. Even more, this story celebrates the power of relationships among thousands of gifted, passionate, faithful people. Many thanks to Heber Brown for graciously welcoming us to a church garden at one of the network churches in Baltimore, where we enjoyed chatting together in the greenhouse. To learn more about Rev. Dr. Heber Brown as a pastor, writer, and speaker, take a look at his website. You can also explore the wider work of the Black Church Food Security Network here.Rev. Dr. Heber BrownTRANSCRIPTHeber Brown Our garden has really become like a front door. It's a demonstration site. You're not going to feed an entire city or community with a church garden, but it becomes an activation space for your congregation members and the neighbors to come and reap the personal and individual benefits of just being closer to soil, but then also to practice what collectivism looks like in a garden space. It's a very controlled environment for a laboratory for, “how do we do this together?” And those learnings can roll over into other places as well.Debra Rienstra Welcome to the Refugia Podcast. I'm your host, Professor Debra Rienstra. Refugia are habitats in nature where life endures in times of crisis. We're exploring the concept of refugia as a metaphor, discovering how people of faith can become people of refugia: nurturing life-giving spaces in the earth, in our human cultural systems, and in our spiritual communities, even in this time of severe disturbance. This season, we're paying special attention to churches and Christian communities who have figured out how to address the climate crisis together as an essential aspect of their discipleship. Today, I'm talking with Rev. Dr. Heber Brown, founder of the Black Food Security Network. Beginning with a small congregation, a 1500-square foot garden, and a divine calling, the Black Food Security Network now connects 250 Black churches and 100 Black farmers in the Mid-Atlantic states and beyond. Reverend Brown's story weaves through issues of health justice, food security and climate resilience. And I love how beautifully this story illustrates the power of refugia. One small experiment started to form connections, then spread and eventually transformed a whole ecosystem—in this case, a food shed. I think you'll find Heber's brilliance and humility and joy inspiring, but he would be the first to say that this network is built on relationships among thousands of gifted, passionate, faithful people. People finding and exercising their beauty and agency is the best part of this story. Let's get to it.Debra Rienstra Heber, it's so great to talk to you today. Thank you so much for spending some time with me.Heber Brown Thank you for the opportunity.Debra Rienstra You've told your origin story about the Black Food Security Network a million times. Will you tell it again for our listeners?Heber Brown Absolutely. So, somewhere about five years in to pastoring a beautiful congregation here in Baltimore City called the Pleasant Hope Baptist Church, I began to notice a pattern of members of our congregation who were being hospitalized, and in response to that, like any well trained pastor will do, we do the things that seminary and other places have taught us: to show up by the bedside, give prayer, give encouragement, don't stay too long, and get to the next member who needs that kind of pastoral care. And so I was doing what my family—which was a family full of pastors—and seminary taught me to do: to go and visit. And during those visits, and while extending that encouragement, those prayers and the like, I also got the opportunity to do deep listening and learn some things about the people in my church, that stuff that doesn't necessarily and normally come out on a Sunday morning during all of the activity of a service. And one of the things that would come up, that started to come up in the confidentiality of those sacred circles, was the ways that diet and food was a part of the picture that was leading to the dis-ease and suffering, physical suffering, of those in the church. And I began to hear that over and over again. So I'm going, I'm praying, I'm giving scripture, I'm listening, shaking hands and moving on, and listening and hearing about food being in the picture. Alright, next visit. I'm going, I'm praying, I'm giving scripture, I'm giving encouragement, I'm listening, shaking hands, move to the next person. Food comes up again. It came up so much that eventually I got tired of just hearing about this challenge and walking away. I got unsettled by listening to people who I love and share life with, share with me their challenges, and as much as I believe and know that prayer is powerful, I wondered if there was ways that I could pray in a different way, pray through action.And so I got the idea—well, God gave vision. Well, no, God didn't give the first vision. The first one was just my idea. And my idea was to partner with the local market that was really right across the main intersection from our church. And I wanted some type of pathway so that food from that market could get to our church, get to our members, and it could improve their quality of life and address the health challenges in our church. But I still remember the day I went over to that market. And when I went to that market, and I looked at the prices of the produce, and then I also took note of the—as the young folks would say—the vibe of the space. It failed the vibe test, and it failed the price tag test. I saw barriers that would prevent, or at least slow this idea around nutrient-rich produce coming from that market right across the main intersection to our church within walking distance. And I got frustrated by that. I was frustrated because what we needed was right within reach. It was right at our fingertips, literally, but those barriers there would have made it very difficult for us to acquire and obtain the food that was there. Over the years, and like you said, I've told this story many times, and it's a living story, and so even my reflections on parts of it illuminates different ways, even at this stage of my journey with this. But I thought about like, what stopped me from talking to the market manager anyway? So I made the decision on that day just to walk out and say, “No, I'm not going to pursue partnership.” As I reflect on it, I interrogate myself, like, “Why didn't you at least have a conversation? Because who knows, something could have come out of the conversation, and maybe they would have given you the food for free or the discounted rate...” et cetera, et cetera. And when I sat with that and I thought about it more, I think there was something within me that didn't want free food. I thought, and I still think to this day, in a different, deeper, more conscious way, more aware way—but back then it was just something within where I thought that free food would have been too expensive. And not in a dollars and cents kind of way. That would have cost us too much with respect to our dignity, our sense of somebody-ness, and I did not want to lead my congregation in kind of genuflecting to the benevolence and charity, sense of charity, of the “haves” of the neighborhood. I did not want to reinforce kind of an inferiority complex that comes with staying in a posture of subservience to what you can recognize to be unjust and racist systems that keep food away from people when I believe that food is a God-given right. Healthy, nutritious food is a God-given right. I didn't want to lead my congregation into that, and I didn't want to reinforce even a sense of superiority, which is an equally devastating and damaging thing to the human soul, to think that these poor Black people are coming across the street to get food, and we are in the position to help those poor, at risk, needy people. Whether inferiority or superiority, both, I believe, are corrosive to the human soul. I did not have the articulation of that then, but I had enough in me that was living in that space that stopped me from leading our congregation into a partnership there. And so I left out, I walked back to the church. While I'm walking back to the church, near the front door of our church, there's a plot of land, and that land I'd walked past a thousand times before that day, but on that day, with divine discontent bubbling up inside of me, that's when God gave a vision. God vetoed my idea, gave a real vision, and that vision was rooted in us growing our own food in the front yard of our congregation. And so I go inside the church and I announce this vision to members of the church, and I remember saying to them, “Hey, y'all. God gave me a vision!” And I saw eyes rolling, like, “Oh, here he goes again.” I was at that time, I was in my early thirties. I started pastoring at 28 years old. And, you know, I came in at 28, I had all the ideas in the world. We was gonna fix everything by the weekend. And this patient congregation gave me room to work out all of that energy around changing everything immediately. So they were used to hearing this kind of stuff from me before, and so the rolling of the eyes when I said, “Hey, y'all, let's start a garden,” was quite expected, but I'm grateful for a remnant of the folks who said, “This one actually might work. Let's stick with him. Let's go with him on this.” And that remnant and I, we got together, we started growing food in the front yard of our church, and long story short, that garden helped to transform the spiritual and the physical material conditions of our congregation. 1500-square feet. We started growing 1200 pounds of produce every season: tomatoes, broccoli, kale, corn, even watermelon some years. It just transformed our ministry and even attracted people to the ministry who were not Christian, who'd never come to the church. Some people flew in from out of town. Like this little congregation of like 125 people with the 1500-square foot garden became, for some people, a destination, like church. And I was like, “What is this? We don't have bells and whistles and smoke machines and everything else. We're just a regular church on the side of the road with a little piece of land. And this garden is becoming a calling card for our ministry.”Debra Rienstra It was such a wild thing to do, and yet—it's just a garden.Heber Brown It's just a garden!Debra Rienstra So, I want to come back to, now, you know, long fifteen years later, you have this network of 250 Black churches and a hundred Black farmers, mostly up and down the East Coast, but all over the US. And we'll get to that exciting development in a bit, but I want to go back to those early days, because we're really interested in how congregations get excited. So could you talk about Maxine Nicholas?Heber Brown Yes, yes. Maxine Nicholas was the president of the sanctuary choir when I first got to Pleasant Hope. And she also was the one who organized a lot of exciting trips for seniors. They went shopping and went to plays. And you know, that was my introduction to her, when I first got to the church. And really, that was the extent, pretty much, of what I knew about her, how she showed up in the ministry. And when I shared this vision from God for us to start a garden, she was one of the members who said, “I'm gonna help.” And it was critical that she...what she did was critical to even us having this conversation today because she had the agricultural and farming know-how. I didn't.Debra Rienstra You didn't know anything!Heber Brown No, I didn't know anything! I was, I mean, born in Baltimore City. Yes, I spent summers down the country. As we say in my family and community, we say, you know, “We're going down the country for the summer.” And so, when school let out, my parents took us down to our relatives' home in rural Virginia, and my big mama, mama Geraldine, we would stay with her. She had land. She grew, you know, all the things. I wasn't paying attention to any of that when I was a young child, but some seeds were planted. But it really wasn't what I was focused on then, so I didn't know much about growing or, you know, agrarian kind of rhythms of being at all. Sister Maxine, though, grew up with multiple brothers and sisters on a farm in Roanoke Rapids, North Carolina. She moved to Baltimore from North Carolina around the fifties, joined Pleasant Hope shortly after that, and had really grown with the church over the years. Though she left the farm, the farm never left her. It was still in her. I didn't know it was there. My seminary-trained pastoral eyes were socialized to lock in on the gifts that people had that could be in service to our Sunday service, the production of the corporate worship experience. So if you can sing, I was trained to say, “Hey, I think you should join the choir.” If you could play an instrument, get on the band. Could you stand for two hours or so? The ushers' ministry. But I had some major blind spots about the gifts of God in people that were detached— seemingly detached and devoid—from what corporate worship and liturgy could look like in our space. Sister Maxine stepping forward helped to challenge my blind spots. She's not just a sanctuary choir president. She's not just the planner of trips for the seniors. She was a farmer.Debra Rienstra Isn't that remarkable? I think so many churches are full of such talent and passion, and sort of untilled passion, right? That, as you say, we're so focused on church programs, whatever those might be, for a church, that we often don't realize what people are capable of in the service of the name of Jesus, right? So, now you say, when you go to work with a potential partner church, you look for the Sister Maxine.Heber Brown That's right, she's a profile.Debra Rienstra How do you find the Sister Maxines? Everybody wants them.Heber Brown Yeah. Many times, well, one thing I know for sure, I'll say. Sister Maxine is rarely the pastor. It's not the pastor or anybody with the big highfalutin titles up front on the website, on the camera. It's rare. I'll just say that: it's rare, in my experience, that that's your Sister Maxine. They do play a crucial role in the furthering and establishment of this kind of ministry, “innovation,” innovation in air quotes. But Sister Maxine is, in many times, in my experience, that's the one who is recognized as getting things done in the church. And many times, they're almost allergic to attention. They're the ones who are running from the microphone or the spotlight, but they're the ones who prefer, “I'm in the background.” No, they often say things like that: “No, no, that's not for me. I just want to get stuff done. You know, I don't know what to say.” Oftentimes they talk like that. But everybody in the church knows if it's going to get done, this one's going to do it. Or, you know, maybe it's a group, they're going to get it done. And so that's one of the things that I've just trained myself to look for, like, who really is over—you know, when I shake the hand of a pastor, many times I'm looking over their shoulder. Who is behind you? Because what I know is, “Pastor, and no disrespect, but you're not the one who's gonna be with me in the garden on the land. You'll be getting an introduction to the land most times, just like I will be when I first arrive.” Who's the person who already knows it? And then too, I think you find the Sister Maxine by listening. Hearing Sister Maxine's story, and really listening to the fact that she grew up on a farm in North Carolina. And watching her face light up when she talked about growing up, she talked about her parents, and she's since passed away, but I still remember so many conversations we've had. And she would tell me about how her parents would send all the children out to work the farm before they went to school. And she would chuckle and say, “My daddy sent the boys and the girls out there to work that land,” to kind of challenge notions of this is not a woman or a girl's work. Her parents like, “Nope. Everybody get outside.” And she chuckled and laughed and smiled sharing so many of those kinds of memories. And I think you can find the Sister Maxines oftentimes by doing deep listening. And sometimes it's not a Sister Maxine that's really doing the farming thing, but it might be a Sister Maxine who's into herbalism, or, you know, or who has stories about their elders or parents who could walk in the field and put stuff together and tend to a rash or a wound or a bruise. These things might not show up on a resume, but they're in the lines of the stories of the people who are right under our nose. And so maybe I'll just offer it finally, that maybe it's, you know, you find Sister Maxine by doing deep listening.Debra Rienstra Yeah, yeah. Okay, so now you've got a church garden. And it's transforming the congregation. How? What's changing?Heber Brown Well, one of the things that transformed with the congregation was just like the pride. Members of the church was taking pride in what we were doing. You know, we're not a megachurch in the city. Never have been a megachurch. In fact, our church blended in so much in the background of the neighborhood that when I first got to the church, the trustees—really one of the trustees in particular—was really adamant about us needing to build a steeple on top of our building, because the steeple would then indicate to the community that this is a church. And thank God we never got a steeple, but we didn't need it. The garden became the steeple, and the members started taking pictures of the produce they were receiving from the church garden and posting it on their Facebook page, and putting it, you know, sharing it with their families. They began sharing recipes in the congregation related to what we were growing in our garden, and I saw people start coming to our church for worship and programming that were coming because we had a garden.Debra Rienstra Lured by the cabbages.Heber Brown That's it! Not these sermons I worked so hard to put together.Debra RienstraNope. It was the cabbages.Heber Brown I'm trying to say, “You know, this word in the Greek means...” and all this stuff. And I'm trying to, “Hey, y'all, I have a degree!” And I'm trying to show you I have a degree. Like, “no, we're here for cabbage.”Debra Rienstra You just need carrots. So, from there, we become this big network, and there's a lot going on between those steps. So you've got the garden. You start having markets after services on Sunday. What happens next to begin creating this gigantic network?Heber Brown Yeah, so this network, I mean, this activity with our garden continues to grow and mature. We're testing. We develop an appetite for experimentation and a curiosity, and nurturing kind of a congregational curiosity about what could happen, like, what if? What if, what if? And in that kind of context, my “what ifs” also grew to: “What if other churches could do this too?” And what if we could work together to systematize our efforts? And so I was very clear that I was not interested in a scaling of this experience in such a way that would create additional siloed congregational ministries. Like, that's not going to fix and help us get to the root of why we are hungry or sick in the first place. If we're going to, you know, really get at the root of, or some of the root, of the challenges, we have to create an ecosystem. We have to have churches who do it, but also work with other churches who are doing it. And we compliment—like a choir. You got your sopranos, your altos, your tenors, and you got some churches that will do this part well, other churches will do that part well, but if you sing together, you can create beautiful music together. And so that idea started rolling around in my head, and I started talking to farmers and public health professionals here in the city, and other folks, food justice folks in the city, and just kind of getting their reactions to this idea. I had never seen or heard of anything like that before at that time. And so I was just trying to get a read from others who I respected, to kind of give some insight. And in the course of that, this city, Baltimore, experienced an uprising related to the death of Freddie Gray.Debra Rienstra Yeah, this is so interesting, how this became a catalyst. Describe that.Heber Brown It kicked at the uprising and the death of Freddie Gray at the hands of Baltimore City police officers. And for those who are not familiar, Baltimore City, like many communities around this country, sadly, had experienced a long line of Black people who've been killed by Baltimore City police officers with no consequences to those officers or to government officials who supported them. So Freddie Gray in 2015 was the latest name in a long list of names and generations of Black families who've endured the brutality and the horror of those kinds of experiences. When the city goes up in demonstrations and protests against police brutality against Black people in Baltimore, one of the things that happened was those communities nearest the epicenter of the demonstrations and protests that were already what we call “food apartheid zones” and struggling with food access and food security, those neighborhoods...things intensified because the corner stores that they were dependent on also closed during that time. Public transportation did not send buses through the neighborhood, so they were stranded there. Even the public school system closed for a few days, and 80,000 students in Baltimore City, many of them who were dependent on free breakfast and free lunch from school, had to figure out something else. So with all of that support not there anymore, members of the community started to call our church, because by 2015 we were known kind of like as the “food and garden” church. They got food. It was our calling card. So they called the church office. They said, “Hey, Reverend Brown, Pastor Brown, we need food.” I called our garden team. We harvested from our garden. We called farmers that we knew. Other people just made donation to us. We transformed our church into like this food depot. We started processing donations, harvesting, loaded it up on our church van, and I was driving our church van around the city of Baltimore in the midst of the uprising, getting food to people and into the communities that called us to come.Debra Rienstra Wow, you've done a lot of driving vans around, it seems like. We'll get back to that. But it's just so fascinating that that moment catalyzed, it sounds like, an awareness of food insecurity that made it really real for people who are maybe aware of it, but now it's reached a sort of acute moment. And I love the way that you talked in an interview with Reverend Jen Bailey about how Black churches are already a network. And so that moment, it sounds like, activated that network. And in fact, the way that you talked about the legacy of Black churches having a spiritual vocation connected to social change for a long time, and so many people used to doing things with hardly any obvious resources, like not money or power, and depending on God to make a way out of no way. And it sounds like you just leveraged all of those incredible assets born of years of struggle and said, “We can do this. We can move from being consumers at the whim of systems like this to producers that create food security.” So how did you, you know, sort of leverage those assets and help people understand that they had them?Heber Brown Yeah, I think that what was helpful to me early on was to almost look at the church like, assume the posture of a social scientist. And to almost go up on the balcony of the church and look down on it. Like, just back up and try as best as possible to clean your lenses so you can just look at it. What does it do? What does it care about? What does it prioritize? Like, just really take notes. And that's a part of what I was drawn to do early on, was just: what does Pleasant Hope— and not just Pleasant Hope Baptist Church, but all the churches that we're in relationship with, and all the churches that I knew, being a preacher's kid, my dad still pastors in this city. And so I've grown up in the church, the Black churches of Baltimore and beyond, and so just stepping back and watching to see what it does gave me some curiosities, some clues, some tips and hints, like: wow, if it already does that, then if I can just run downfield a little bit and get in the path of where I know it's about to come, then potentially it could make what it's going to do anyway even more impactful. So an example is: pastors' anniversary or church anniversary services always have food in the picture. You're going to eat. And you don't have to be a Black—that's any church. You're going to eat throughout the year. It's a part of the practice of the faith. If you can run downfield and get in front of where you know the congregation is about to come—because church anniversary is the same Sunday every single year. And you can reverse-engineer like, at what point will the church need to buy food? At what point do they need to decide where they get the food from? At what point is the budget decided for the following year so they see how much money they're going to spend on food. If you can get in and kind of almost double dutch into those critical moments, like jump rope, and be like, “If I make this suggestion at this particular moment, then it's going to introduce something into the conversation with the trustees that might increase the amount of money spent on food that we then could use to connect with this particular farmer, which we then can use to connect with the kitchen ministry, who they can then use to create the menu for the meal.” And before you know it, you have a plate with local food right in front of everybody's faces at the church.Debra Rienstra You have said that after the pulpit, the second holiest place in the building is the kitchen.Heber Brown It really...honest to God, is the second, and it's a close second too, because everybody can't walk into that kitchen. And if you can strategize and think about how to leverage the stuff, the assets, but also your knowledge of how this entity operates, it could really be transformative.Here we are, chatting at the greenhouse. Debra RienstraHi, it's me, Debra. If you are enjoying this podcast episode, go ahead and subscribe on your preferred podcast platform. If you have a minute, leave a review. Good reviews help more listeners discover this podcast. To keep up with all the Refugia news, I invite you to subscribe to the Refugia newsletter on Substack. This is my fortnightly newsletter for people of faith who care about the climate crisis and want to go deeper. Every two weeks, I feature climate news, deeper dives, refugia sightings and much more. Join our community at refugianewsletter.substack.com. For even more goodies, including transcripts and show notes for this podcast, check out my website at debrarienstra.com. D-E-B-R-A-R-I-E-N-S-T-R-A dot com. Thanks so much for listening. We're glad you're part of this community. And now back to the interview.Debra Rienstra You've really asked people to go back in the system to origins, like the origins of the soil, and think about the provenance of everything they eat—in the church, but also at home and and say, “Well, why can't we help Black farmers find markets for their food by creating this whole network?” Talk a little bit about what the network actually looks like. So you've got farmers, they create produce, and then you go with a truck, and sounds like it's all you! You go with a truck, bring their stuff to a church. So explain how that all works now in the larger network.Heber Brown Yeah, so now, after getting our official start ten years ago, so I started 15 years ago on this journey. The network itself, this is the tenth year. 2025 is our ten year anniversary. And now what our network looks like is helping member churches to start gardens on land that they own. We are very clear about starting on garden-owned—sorry, on church-owned land, just because in this kind of context, gentrification, eminent domain, that's real. You got Black communities who don't know if their land or property will be taken because a highway needs to be built here. And we don't, we've not tapped into, or don't have the sense of agency, collective agency, yet to push back against those kinds of things. And so church-owned land really is important because it creates some political buffers against systems that would be hesitant to snatch church land. Just politically, it's not a good idea. So knowing that about the political environment, that they don't want to mess with—they want votes from congregations. They don't want to, you know—congregations coming after them is like, “Oh, okay, well, let's grow food on the land that is less likely to be taken by politicians or developers.” And so we help churches to start gardens or agricultural projects. It might be composting, it might be rain barrels. It might be, you know, different types of things to either establish it or to expand it. And our gardens really become like a front door. It's a demonstration site. You're not going to feed an entire city or community with a church garden, but it becomes an activation space for your congregation members and the neighbors to come and reap the personal, individual benefits of just being closer to soil, but then also to practice what collectivism looks like in a garden space. It's a very controlled environment for a laboratory, for, “How do we do this together?” And those learners can roll over into other places as well.Heber Brown So gardens is one thing. Markets, Black farmers markets. We do them at churches. We like to do it on Sundays right after worship, when people are hungry anyway. We like putting those farmers right there before people get to their car. We want to make it feel like a family reunion, a cookout in your backyard, a holiday gathering. There's a DJ, we're line dancing, there's prepared food, and there's produce, games for the children. So kind of an event experience. It's really fun. It's an experience, you know? And that's what we really try to do with that program. It's not just transactional, “Here is your squash.” It's: let's give people a nourishing experience that even goes beyond the food that the farmers are bringing. And then we do Black farm tours, where we're driving people around to kind of literally get your feet on soil. And it's become an increasing request of groups and churches that many times they don't even know there are farmers right under their nose, like right around the corner. We're so disconnected from our local food environments. So Black farm tours are helpful. And then what you reference, with respect to driving food around—it's almost like, I've called it the BCSA program. It's kind of a play off of “CSA: Community Supported Agriculture,” like the subscription box program. Black Church Supported Agriculture looks like us helping farmers with the logistics of getting bulk items from their farm to congregations. And yes, over these past ten years, I have done a lot of the driving of refrigerated trucks and box trucks. It's been my joy, though, to do that. It's been a sanctuary for me, even while pastoring. I mean, so I'm preaching on Sunday, and then I'm delivering sweet potatoes on Monday, and like, behind the wheel of a big box truck. I love that kind of stuff, just because it helps me be feel free to explore my call beyond just more conventional, classic understandings of what it means to be a clergy person. So it's been great for me to experience that, but ten years in, it is increasingly important that I get from behind the wheel and pass the keys to somebody else, so that we might really systematize it, because if it stays with me, this network won't go far at all.Debra Rienstra Yeah. Okay, so I want to read a quote from you, and then I want to ask a question about that very thing. So you put it before that your vision is to move people from being—and this is my summary—your vision is to move people from being disadvantaged consumers to confident producers, and that means, and here's your quote, “co-creating alternative micro food systems, not just because of the racism and the oppression in the current food system, but also because of the impending challenges around climate change, the growing concerns around geopolitics, and, at the time you said this, Covid-19, which showed us how fragile our current food system is.” So the Black Food Security Network is wrapped up in health justice, food security, climate resilience. Do you have ways of communicating all of that to people? Are the folks who are buying the carrots and the kale aware of all that? And if so, how are they aware of all that?Heber Brown Yeah, many. I mean, this food is a very political thing, and so it sets a good table for conversations around all of that and so much more that you just lifted up. And so there are many one-on-one conversations or small group conversations or online, you know, conversations that happen where people do recognize the implications of what we're doing. Yeah, that goes far beyond your next meal. And so that is helpful. I am definitely interested, though, in how we do more in the way of communicating that. I would love to see, for example, Sunday school curricula created that kind of takes—again, if I'm looking at how churches operate today, Christian education programs are one of the things that have been on the church budget and in the air of the programming of the church for a very long time, and I suspect it's going to stay there. How do we inject it with Sunday school curriculum that fits? So climate change, racism, social justice, food justice. How do we have Sunday school curriculum, vacation Bible school and summer camp experiences that speak to that? How might we reimagine our Sunday live streams? Is anybody really watching the full one hour of your live stream on Sunday? Could it be that we could produce programming that perhaps pops in on a piece of the sermon, but then pops out to another segment that touches on these different things, so that people really have a dynamic experience watching? Maybe there's one stream of the Sunday service that stays just on the whole service, but maybe there's an alternative link for those who may be closer to the outer edges or different edges of the ministry, who's really not interested in hearing the church announcements and when the tea is gonna be and when the that...Maybe, if we thought about how to create material, curriculum, streamed experiences that are a little bit more dynamic, it would also create a runway for the sharing of those. And last thing I'll say is: what about our small group and discipleship programs at our churches? And so many congregations have book clubs and small group studies that have done wonderful things over the years. I wonder if there could be, in addition to those kinds of groups, where there's an action component. So we don't read just for the sake of reading. We read to reflect. We read to be activated to go do, and then we come back and reflect, and then we read the next thing, and then we go do, and then come back—a praxis. Could our small group and discipleship programs embrace a different kind of praxis, or for how they are experimenting with the practice of this faith in this day and time?Debra Rienstra “Okay, let's pause and go out to weed a little bit.” There you go. So one of the things I love about your story is the way you began with this—we could call it a “low-resource refugia space,” one congregation. And I'm curious how things feel different now. So ideally, refugia in nature persist and grow, connect and spread through corridors, and eventually you have this renewed ecosystem. So the Black Food Security Network is essentially a successful refugia network. You've created an ecosystem. What feels different now for you and for the whole network? You've been at this a long time.Heber Brown What feels different now? So I was thinking this week about the rhythm of nature, and in my personal embrace of this vocation, I try to mirror and mimic nature in a number of ways. And so like during winter, you won't hear me a lot. I'm doing what nature does, and the energy is in the roots and not in the fruit. And I don't take a lot of interviews. I don't travel a lot. I get real still and real quiet. And during the spring, I start poking my head out a little bit more. During the summer, it's go time. During the fall, it's harvest time. So I look at that personally, but now I'm also beginning to look at that organizationally, and with respect to this network. And I'm saying, I'm intentionally saying “organization” and “network” separate. With respect to the organization, I am clearer today, as we go through the life cycles of what nature does, that I now have the opportunity, and the responsibility even, to till the soil again in the organization. And a part of that tilling of the soil, turning the soil over, means me renegotiating my position in the organization. That out of necessity, I leaned into a role that, for the past decade, I've been organizing and bringing things together, but I recognize, and I always have, my highest and best use is really not in the management of the day to day operations of a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. My skills are not as sharp in all of the ways that would continue to cultivate that kind of consistency and efficiencies in an organization. And so currently, I am working as hard as I can and as fast as I can to get out of positions that I've been holding, particularly with the executive director. This is not going to be overnight, but I'm articulating it and saying it out loud to help remind myself, remind my team, and also make it more real. I'm speaking it into—I'm manifesting it through my words that if the organization is to continue to grow and flourish. I can't stay in this role.Debra Rienstra Okay, you want to go back to the soil.Heber Brown Right here. For those who are listening, we're sitting at one of our member gardens, and this is where I belong. I still, I will obviously still have a role with the organization. I'm not leaving. But maybe there's a different configuration. Maybe I become more of a John the Baptist. I'm just going out, and I go out and I'm preaching in the wilderness about, and painting the picture, about the necessity of this stuff. And then after that, after I paint the picture, get folks excited, show them that it's real, help them in the early stages—I love talking about the early stages and my failures and all that kind of stuff. And then pass the baton. Once these congregations are activated and energized and ready, at some point very soon, passing the baton to those in the organization who will continue to work with them to mentor them and grow them. And then with the network as a whole, you know, going around and being like a people pollinator—that's what I really feel called to. I want to grow food, and I want to go around and people-pollinate. I want to introduce people. I want to connect folks. I think that's part of my highest use in the network, which will demand a renegotiation of how I show up in the organization.Debra Rienstra Yeah, yeah, because you've talked all along about how important relationships are in making this. It's always person to person, always about relationships. Yeah. So is the network right now fundamentally built on congregations, still? Like it's a network of congregations plus farmers.Heber Brown It's a network of congregations and it's a network of relationships with farmers. We really, over the years, one of the developments that we had over the past maybe year and a half or so, was that really the sweet spot of what we do well is work with Black congregations. That's what we do well. Black farmers, because of a century of discrimination and so many other systemic injustices against them—they need a high level of advocacy, technical assistance, support, financing, et cetera. And we really came to a place about a year and a half ago where we realized...before that point we were trying to help the churches and the farmers. I was like, no, it's enough getting a church to change one small thing, seemingly small thing. How are you going to do churches and farmers? And so a clarity around—what is the sweet spot of what we do well, and where's the thing that others are not doing as much? There are a lot of organizations now, thankfully, that give a lot of support to farmers in general and Black farmers in particular. We don't need to try to be the experts there. We can just be again in a relationship with those organizations that do that with the farmers, and just make sure that we're dancing well together in how, “If y'all help the farmers and we help the churches, now we bring together what our advocacy, organizing and programming can look like.” And so right now, it's congregations, and we're trying to increase our ability to serve our congregations well.Debra Rienstra Yeah, so that's refugia-like, too, in the sense that refugia are very particular to a species in a place, and when they spread and grow through corridors, the biodiversity increases. So you know, you're building, as you say, this ecosystem, and it naturally, you would have biodiversity increase, but there's still going to be specialized pockets. Okay, lightning round. and then a final question. Lightning round, what's your favorite veg?Heber BrownFirst thing that came up...oh man, that's a lot. Nevermind. I'm gonna go with kale. Stay with my kale.Debra RienstraKale! Okay. I'd have to say carrots for me, because they're so versatile. And they last a long time.Heber Brown I've had carrot hot dogs. I'm vegetarian, and so I've had carrot hot dogs. They are really good.Debra Rienstra Okay, so I wanted to ask you about being a vegetarian, because this is essentially the South, right? It is so meat centric. I'm vegetarian too. It is hard to find something to eat. How do you do that?Heber Brown Yes, yes.Debra RienstraWhat do you do about like, pork barbecue?Heber BrownYeah. So a lot of things—social functions and fellowships—I know I have to eat beforehand or bring my own food. And so that's what I do to kind of get through. It's like, I'm not going for the plate, I'm going for the people.Debra Rienstra Macaroni and cheese works.Heber Brown Mac and cheese still works a lot. So the sides—all the sides, I'm good on the sides.Debra Rienstra Yeah, me too. Most impressive farm skill?Heber Brown Attracting labor to help.Debra Rienstra That's a huge skill!Heber Brown Huge, huge huge. I'm still learning. I went to beginner farm school, and I'm still learning the farm stuff, and I'm excited about it, but I'm grateful that God has gifted me to get folks to show up to him.Debra Rienstra Unappreciated farm skill. Okay. Elderberry syrup for communion. Talk about that.Heber Brown When we all get to heaven, I think Jesus will be serving elderberry syrup. It's like, no, I'm playing. Yeah, that was one of those experimentations.Debra Rienstra Did it work?Heber Brown It worked! And then the next week, Covid hit and shut down. So we were just beginning. I partnered with an herbalist who was gonna—and she also was a baker, so she was gonna be doing fresh bread and elderberry syrup every communion Sunday. The day we did this, she was in the church kitchen, baking the bread, and the smell of bread is just going through the congregation. And I knew she had the elderberry syrup in this big, beautiful container. And so it was such a beautiful moment. And I was so jazzed about...I was jazzed about that, not only because the bread was good and like children were coming back for seconds for communion bread, but also because I felt like with the elderberry syrup and the bread, that it was in deeper alignment with our ethics and what we preached.Debra Rienstra It's better sacramentalism. Because, you know, as you've been saying all along, it's not consuming an element of unknown provenance. It's producing. It's the fruit of human labor, right? It's the work of God, the gift of the earth, and the fruit of human labor. And it's labor you've had your actual hands on. So it's a lot to ask for churches to do this, but it's, you know, one of these small experiments with radical intent that could be really, really cool.Heber Brown And I think in a time when congregations, well, I'm thinking about trustee ministries, those who are over financial resources of the church, right? So one of the ways that it worked at my church was, I was like, “Listen, I noticed in our financial reports here that we're spending X amount on buying these boxes of these pre-made communion cups. What if we could take some of the money we're already spending and divert it to an herbalist who could grow, who could make us the syrup that we need, and what if we can do it that way?” And so I had to speak to that particular ministry, not from the perspective of like the earth and the soil, but in a language that I thought that they could better appreciate was dollars and cents.Debra Rienstra Yeah, keeping those dollars local. Oh my gosh. Okay. Final question: what is your vision for the Church, capital C, in the next 50 years?Heber Brown That we'd be baptized back into the soil. That Scripture speaks about the ways in which we are brought from the soil, and God breathed into Adam, the breath of life. And I think there's more of the breath of life now back in the soil, if we would but release ourselves into the compost of what is happening socially now that we would be in a position where new life, resurrection, would be experienced in a different kind of way through our ministry.Debra Rienstra Heber, thank you so much. This was such a pleasure. Thank you for your time today. Thank you.Debra Rienstra Thanks for joining us for show notes and full transcripts, please visit debrarienstra.com and click on the Refugia Podcast tab. This season of the Refugia Podcast is produced with generous funding from the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. Colin Hoogerwerf is our awesome audio producer. Thanks to Ron Rienstra for content consultation as well as technical and travel support. Till next time, be well. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Welcome to the first episode of Season 4! I'm so glad to share with you this delightful episode about a group of terrific Lutheran folks who exemplify joyful lay leadership and getting a whole congregation on board on behalf of climate action.Many thanks to Judy Hinck and to the lively group of Mount Olive members who spent an afternoon with me and Ron sharing their climate justice journey (so far!). Special thanks to Art Halbardier, who graciously hosted and offered extremely helpful background before our visit.To learn more about Mount Olive Lutheran's work, check out this article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune about Mount Olive's geothermal project. You might also appreciate this document recounting the history of Mount Olive's climate work, or these links with more about the history of their climate justice initiatives, their 2017 statement, their climate justice page, and an FAQ document about their projects:You can also learn more about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's statements on climate justice and about the Minnesota chapter of Interfaith Power and Light. To read Pope Francis' encyclical on climate, visit Laudato si'. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Join us for another season of the Refugia Podcast, with eight new episodes (plus a bonus!) releasing weekly starting September 14. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit refugianewsletter.substack.com

Dave Koetje returns as co-host to reflect on what we've learned about refugia church from our guests this season. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Fellow Fortress Press authors Sharon Delgado and Talitha Amadea Aho discuss writing books during a pandemic, young people's spiritual hungers, and the resources the church can offer during a climate crisis. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

The executive directors of Creation Justice Ministries explain how faith-based climate organizations can bring people together, inspiring churches and individuals to build social cohesion and work toward a livable and just future. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Rev. Gerry Koning describes the process of moving from an ordinary, traditional congregation to a refugia church focused on "all abilities, all creation, all nations." --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Rev. Jim Antal recounts his long experience in climate activism and shares his conviction that Christians, and people of all faiths, are called to a communal vocation at this crucial moment in history. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Theologian Ruth Padilla DeBorst describes life in Casa Adobe, an intentional Christian community in Costa Rica, and discusses what faithful living can look like as we seek to resist complicity in the abuses of empire. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Rabbi Shapiro, founder of an interfaith clergy training program called The Joseph Project, discusses how religious ritual and story bind us together and help us strengthen community in times of crisis. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

350.org co-founder and Executive Director May Boeve describes the joy and challenge of connecting climate activists across the globe, scaling up climate solutions, and drawing on faith to drive courage and prophetic speech. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

To open Season 3, homiletics professor Rev. Dr. Leah D. Schade considers the prophetic role of churches amid the climate crisis, as well as the challenge of working for long-term transformation through preaching and structured dialogue. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

We're back! Join us for Season 3 of the Refugia Podcast starting Sept. 18. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Biologist Dave Koetje returns to reflect with host Debra Rienstra on major themes from Season 2. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Writer Fred Bahnson explores the distinction between arks and refugia. He describes his visit to the church forests of Ethiopia and his involvement in the community garden movement, and he ponders the role of metanoia and mystical connection in a refugia faith. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Kathryn Mae Post describes her own process of reckoning with a faith crisis, engaging in anti-racism work, and starting out in religion journalism at a time of major cultural and religious transition. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Wildlife biologist Tim Van Deelen reflects on the spiritual challenges of wildlife conservation and considers the call to value the commons and engage in strategic activism. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Katerina Parsons reflects on refugia in international development settings, on engaging in advocacy and activism as a young adult, and on feeling restless and place-starved at once. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Randy Woodley brings Christian and indigenous worldviews into instructive conversation, describing his quest to establish Eloheh Farm, a place where people can reconnect with land and recover indigenous farming practices. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Ruth Harvey describes how times of crisis spur people toward new ways of imagining and organizing community. She reflects on how the Iona Community models refugia as places we move in and out of, located and dispersed. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Bill McKibben reviews some recent good news in the climate fight and reflects on an ethic of human solidarity, the demands of activism, and holding on to Christian faith. Also: the book of Job, refugia, and the delights of vernal pools. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Biologist Dave Koetje talks with host Debra Rienstra about how the COVID-19 pandemic has altered his ideas about refugia. Also: Zoom worship, garden pests, and stepping-stone refugia. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Biologist Dave Koetje returns to reflect with host Debra Rienstra on everything we’ve learned over the course of the last twelve episodes. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Hillary Scholten, an attorney who worked for the DOJ under President Obama and then provided legal representation for migrant workers in Michigan, considers how government policy, people of faith, and the larger community can intersect to create healing refugia spaces. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

In this episode, we travel out to the shore of Lake Michigan and back in time. Jazz musician David Jellema recounts the history of the "artist intelligentsia retreat" founded by his father and uncle. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

A pastor and education team leader at the Christian Reformed Church’s Office of Social Justice, Kate Kooyman sorts out some confusing matters of immigration policy and explores how people of faith help immigrants and refugees go beyond refuge to community integration. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Tim Van Deelen, professor of wildlife ecology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, explains how the term refugia is used in the context of wildlife conservation, along the way telling stories about grizzlies, black-footed ferrets, wolves, and Aldo Leopold. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Journalist and recent seminary graduate Jeff Chu ponders the intersection of theology and farming. He also describes the Evolving Faith Conference and other places of healing and fresh imagination for people who are, for whatever reason, feeling on the margins of the church. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

John Witvliet, Director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship, explores how Christians can create refugia spaces in worship through thoughtful public prayer and courageous practices of lament. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Dean for Intercultural Student Development at Calvin University and co-host of the Truth’s Table podcast, Christina Edmondson reflects on the potential for refugia on college campuses and on the virtues and difficulties of virtual refugia. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Kyle Meyaard-Schaap, National Organizer and Spokesperson for Young Evangelicals for Climate Action, takes stock of how the church is doing in addressing climate change and describes how young Christians are leading the way, finding refugia through intentional action. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Studio artist and art educator Jo-Ann Van Reeuwyk reflects on art and risk-taking, sacred spaces pedagogy, vessels, and pokey things. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Steve Bouma-Prediger, professor of religion at Hope College and “ecotheologian,” reflects on examples of refugia in the Bible and the virtues necessary to fulfill our God-given, human responsibility to the earth. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Jamie Skillen, professor of environmental studies at Calvin University, overviews the sometimes tense relationship between Christianity and environmentalism and urges us to aspire toward an “eschatological stewardship.” --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message

Dave Koetje, professor of biology at Calvin University, helps lay the groundwork with some definitions. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/refugia/message