Podcast appearances and mentions of bill birtles

ABC's Indonesia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, joined Philip Clark on Nightlife to shed light on the Indonesian elections.

ABC Jakarta Bureau Chief Bill Birtles joined Philip Clark.

ABC's East Asia Correspondent Bill Birtles joined Philip Clark from Taiwan to discuss the meeting of China's President Xi Jinping with President Putin and what it means for Australia, the U.S. and Asia. 

This week we look at the SMH and the Age's recent series on a possible coming war with China and ask was this series a timely look at a major coming threat or if was it alarmist as Paul Keating recently claimed. We also look at Aukus and discuss how this week's announcement will be viewed by China. Monica Attard spoke with ABC's Bill Birtles. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

US President Joe Biden had promised to restore relations with China after the turbulent Trump years, but could balloons in the sky send the whole thing off course?  Today, the ABC's East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, on spying, and the fragility of the ties between the world's two superpowers.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent 

US President Joe Biden had promised to restore relations with China after the turbulent Trump years, but could balloons in the sky send the whole thing off course?  Today, the ABC's East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, on spying, and the fragility of the ties between the world's two superpowers.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent 

Bill Birtles shares the story of his sudden departure from China in 2020, and discusses his book, "The Truth About China: Propaganda, Patriotism and the Search for Answers." — Bill Birtles is East Asia correspondent for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. He was based in Beijing between 2015 and 2020, when he had to make a sudden departure as Australia-China relations soured. He is now based in Taiwan. — The YCW Podcast is a podcast series by Young China Watchers. We're a global community of young professionals, providing a platform to discuss the most pressing issues emerging from China today. We organize events with China experts in our 10 chapters across Asia, Europe and the U.S., fostering the next generation of China thought leaders. Download and follow our podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play Music or your usual podcasting platform. Produced by Joshua Cartwright and Sam Colombie. Music: ‘We Build With Rubber Bands', ‘Dirty Wallpaper' by Blue Dot Sessions. For any suggestions, recommendations or other notes, please email us at editor@youngchinawatchers.com.

In the most significant dissent in decades, protesters are taking to the streets across China to vent their frustrations over COVID-19 lockdowns. They're not only demanding their freedom back but in some cases in incredibly rare defiance they're demanding President Xi and the Communist party stand aside. Today, ABC East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, on how much longer the Chinese leader can hold on to COVID-zero.  Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

In the most significant dissent in decades, protesters are taking to the streets across China to vent their frustrations over COVID-19 lockdowns. They're not only demanding their freedom back but in some cases in incredibly rare defiance they're demanding President Xi and the Communist party stand aside. Today, ABC East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, on how much longer the Chinese leader can hold on to COVID-zero.  Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

In the past five years, Beijing's relationship with countries like Australia and the US has become increasingly strained and fractured, with president Xi Jinping turning to nations like Russia for support. Now the Chinese leader is about to be endorsed for another unprecedented five-year term at the Communist party's congress that began on the weekend.  Today, ABC East Asia correspondent Bill Birtles, on what that could mean for world order. Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

In the past five years, Beijing's relationship with countries like Australia and the US has become increasingly strained and fractured, with president Xi Jinping turning to nations like Russia for support. Now the Chinese leader is about to be endorsed for another unprecedented five-year term at the Communist party's congress that began on the weekend.  Today, ABC East Asia correspondent Bill Birtles, on what that could mean for world order. Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

While isolation rules lift here tomorrow, in China the Government is doggedly pursuing a zero-COVID policy with cities still being locked down with almost no notice.  For President Xi Jinping, keeping COVID out has been a platform of his leadership as he prepares to be endorsed for an unprecedented third term at the Communist Party's Congress that begins on the weekend.  Today, East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles on how much longer China can stay out of step with the rest of the world.  Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

While isolation rules lift here tomorrow, in China the Government is doggedly pursuing a zero-COVID policy with cities still being locked down with almost no notice.  For President Xi Jinping, keeping COVID out has been a platform of his leadership as he prepares to be endorsed for an unprecedented third term at the Communist Party's Congress that begins on the weekend.  Today, East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles on how much longer China can stay out of step with the rest of the world.  Featured: Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

There's already so much uncertainty in the world and now it's being compounded, with China scrambling jets in response to a visit to Taiwan by the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi.  The headlines are worrying, pointing to the risks of an all-out war.  Today, the ABC's East Asia correspondent, based in Taipei, Bill Birtles on the potential for a crisis in the Taiwan Strait.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent, Taipei, Taiwan 

There's already so much uncertainty in the world and now it's being compounded, with China scrambling jets in response to a visit to Taiwan by the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi.  The headlines are worrying, pointing to the risks of an all-out war.  Today, the ABC's East Asia correspondent, based in Taipei, Bill Birtles on the potential for a crisis in the Taiwan Strait.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent, Taipei, Taiwan 

It's always hard to tell what the Chinese government is planning, but what we do know is it's ordered a rapid expansion of the country's military, and it's testing it.  That concerns no-one more than the people of Taiwan, who are increasingly worried Beijing could be preparing to invade the island.  Today, the ABC's Taiwan-based East Asia correspondent, Bill Birtles, on what the world's largest military has been up to, and what it could mean.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent, Taipei

The ABC's East Asia Correspondent, Bill Birtles, joins The World Today to discuss the ramifications of yesterday's high level meeting between Australia an China, after a two-year hiatus.

While in Australia we're now learning to live with COVID, that's not the case in China.  For more than a month, dozens of cities including Shanghai have endured strict and at times bizarre lockdowns, as authorities battle to contain an outbreak of Omicron, and the capital, Beijing, could be next. Today, ABC East Asia correspondent Bill Birtles on why the Chinese government could stick to its COVID-zero policies for years to come.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

While in Australia we're now learning to live with COVID, that's not the case in China.  For more than a month, dozens of cities including Shanghai have endured strict and at times bizarre lockdowns, as authorities battle to contain an outbreak of Omicron, and the capital, Beijing, could be next. Today, ABC East Asia correspondent Bill Birtles on why the Chinese government could stick to its COVID-zero policies for years to come.  Featured:  Bill Birtles, ABC East Asia correspondent

The first full day of the election campaign and Labor's Anthony Albanese admits a mistake - he couldn't cite the unemployment rate. School principals cite heavy workloads, exhaustion, and burnout as reasons they're prematurely leaving the job, what can be done to attract and retain them? Frightening tales of COVID lockdown in Shanghai have been all over social media, now China's clamping down, East Asia correspondent Bill Birtles joins ‘PM'.

In conversation with Melissa Roberts. When correspondents Bill Birtles and Michael Smith abruptly left China in September 2020 after late night visits from China's notorious secret police, it marked the first time in decades that Australia had no journalists on the ground. Bill went on to write The Truth About China: Propaganda, Patriotism and the Search for Truth. He joins Trevor Watson, the co-editor of The Beijing Bureau, a collection of essays from some of Australia's leading correspondents based in China from 1970 to the near present, and Hong Kong-based China correspondent Sue-Lin Wong, to discuss their experiences and insights, in a conversation led by Melissa Roberts, co-editor of The Beijing Bureau.

Covid-zero was once a dream pursued by many countries, but the arrival of highly transmissible variants has brought an end to such aspirations for most. However there is one place where the Covid-zero dream is still alive: China.

Episode Notes:Today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices 女性之音', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.4:20 on Huawei, Meng Wanzhou and the two Michaels - when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world23:20 people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese36:20 on Canada-China relations - in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will.Links: China Unbound on Amazon. Joanna Chiu’s websiteNüVoices 女性之音Transcript:Bill:Hi everyone, today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.Joanna:Thank you Bill, thanks for having me on your new podcast, very exciting.Bill:Thanks, yeah you are the second guest, and so I'm really happy to have this opportunity to speak with you. Before we dig into your book, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up where you are and doing what you do?Joanna:Okay. I guess my bio is that my family is one of the many who left Hong Kong after the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests because my parents were worried about what would happen going forward. So growing up in Canada, I felt that China was actually part of my whole family story because what happened led to my family uprooting themselves. So I was always really interested in China and studied Chinese history and wanted to return to be a reporter to chronicle what was happening in the country, which I was so fascinated by.Joanna:So I started reporting on the ground in Hong Kong in 2012, covering all the things that happened there including the Occupy to pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. I moved to Beijing in 2014 and that's where I started covering basically everything in the whole country for European media outlets, including German, Deutsche Presse-Agentur, and AFP (Agence France-Presse). And I guess my career was a bit unique in that I also free-lanced for several stints. So I got to kind of get a sense of what many different jurisdictions and countries wanted to know about China in my time there writing for all sorts of outlets.Bill:Interesting and so I was there until 2015 and I think we overlapped for just about a year. When did you actually leave China to go back to Canada?Joanna:Yeah, I left China in late 2018. I wanted to stay for longer because even seven years on the ground I felt I barely got to scratch the surface of all the things that I could write about in China. Especially because I had such a broad remit where I was a front-line reporter for all of these major events but also could do basically any feature story I wanted. So it was just totally open and I could have stayed there for decades, but I had to go back to Canada. I got asthma from the smog and I think my Canadian lungs just couldn't handle air. I was just like really allergic to Beijing as soon as I landed and I stuck it out for four years. But back in Canada, I felt I would have to move on from my passion and interest in China, but a couple of months after I returned, Meng Wanzhou, a Huawei executive was detained in the Vancouver International Airport. And just over a week later, two Michaels were detained. So definitely I think that was the biggest China story at the time, and it continued to be very impactful around the world.Joanna:So I started covering that and it just led to basically being a reporter for the Toronto Star, focusing on China. And that's what I've been doing since then. I have also been working on my book since early 2019. So not my plan, but definitely the past decade has been very China focused, including my last few years.Bill:It's great, I've always been a fan of your work, and I will say, it's very interesting how many foreign correspondents used to live in China have left the country. Some willingly, some not willingly, but how it turns out how most of them have found jobs covering how China's impacting the world wherever they're now based.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Bill:I think that's a good segue into talking about your book because it really is true that the China story is everywhere now. And that's something, I think, you try and capture in "China Unbound." So tell us who you wrote it for, why you wrote it, and what do you hope that the readers take away from it?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). So when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world. They didn't know the context of Beijing's political system and its increasing ... how its authoritarianism translates also into its foreign policy and its stances towards different countries and diaspora groups all over the world. But these things were not just stories I covered, but stories that were close to my life. Because growing up, my father worked for a Chinese-Canadian radio station and people were talking already then about pressure to self-censor, pressure from the Chinese embassy on Canadian media outlets. This was happening in the 90s and people of Chinese descent around the world were trying to have discussions about this, but basically not really getting much traction or broader public attention.Joanna:It did seem ... I will ask you if this is what you felt, but it took two white men from Canada being taken hostage over this high-profile executive's arrest in Canada for a lot of people in the world to be like, "Wait, what's going on? How will Beijing's political system and authoritarianism possibly impact me and my family or my country or my business?" So I wrote this book for basically everyone, targeting the general reader because I really try to be as immediate as possible in my writing. Most of the reporting is eyewitness reporting from myself in collaboration with journalists around the world and looking at how we got to this point. Western countries and China, how we got to this point where it seems like a lot of obstacles that seem insurmountable. All of these tensions, all of these worries.Joanna:I wanted for people to start with this book and then I provided this long reading list at the end so they can continue to be engaging with these issues. Because I feel that we might not have really noticed, but a lot of the narratives around China in the mainstream public have been very very simplified. And that is a disservice to all countries. And especially to the people who end up being targets and whose lives end up being affected by some of these big conflicts going on.Bill:What you said earlier about it really taking two white men, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig to get people's attention. It's interesting because these pressures have existed, as you said talking about your father and his experience, but these pressures on the diaspora have existed for decades. They've certainly intensified, and you have multiple instances of ethnic Chinese who are jailed in China, American, Australian, where it didn't seem to kind of capture the national attention the way that the detention of the two Michaels did. And that's unfortunate, but it does feel like the conversation and awareness now has shifted and so there's a lot more awareness that these kind of pressures are existing across all sorts of communities. You can tell me I'm wrong, but the Chinese government has also shifted its approach, hasn't it? Sort of widened its net in terms of how they pressure?Joanna:Yeah, so in the past, you know the united front, a lot of that work of foreign influence in both intimidation and providing carrots and sticks. Flattering global politicians and global members of the elite among the diaspora have been going on, but the most harsh efforts of influence in the past I think were mostly directed at people of Asian descent. It was only in more recent years where the really harsh tactic, the detentions, have been applied to foreign nationals who are not of Asian descent. It seems like that is a deliberate shift in tactics, would you agree?Bill:No, I would. And I think it's interesting when you look at sort of who they've targeted, especially around the Meng Wanzhou case. Two Canadians were very quickly arrested, a third Canadian who had been convicted of dealing drugs had a re-sentence to death. There's still no word about Schellenberg's fate in the wake of the Meng Wanzhou deal. But I think that one thing that's interesting is they've yet to target Caucasian Americans. And so far, certainly what I was fearing in the Meng Wanzhou incident was that ... someone had told me that they had put together lists who they might target but they held back because part of the messaging is they're at least today not quite ready to go toe-to-toe with the U.S.. But willing to penalize countries and the citizens of the countries that are seen as effectively being U.S. allies or lackeys depending on who you're speaking with. Does that make sense?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, that makes sense. And my book, people have said that because I'm Canadian and I spotlight countries and experiences like Australia, Italy, Greece, Turkey. So so-called middle powers, that middle-power perspective, whereas many books out of the U.S. and China have it from the U.S. perspective.Bill:Right, right.Joanna:And I think that's important context for Americans to understand because in America, it seems like a lot of it is about this almost glorious competition with China where the U.S. has to win. I have been kind of mortified that people commenting on my book have said things like, "We need to read this so that we can win and not let China win." Things like that. But if they had actually read it, they would have probably seen that that's not right. I criticize the Western nations' handling and attitudes towards China as much as I criticize Beijing's actions. So I would also point out that Australian journalists who are white were affecting. Bill Birtles and Michael Smith spent days holed up in their Australian embassies in China. Basically fleeing because they got tipped off that otherwise they might get detained. Related to Australia's more aggressive critical stance towards China as of late.Bill:And also-Joanna:It does seem-Bill:Sorry, was it also related to the detention of Australian Chinese ... Australian journalist Cheng Lei who was originally Chinese then naturalized into Australian citizenship. And she's disappeared into the system in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, so Cheng Lei ... Again, while she's not a global household name like the two Michaels, she is actually detained. Her case ... we know very little about it, but it seems very clear it's related to the political situation between the two countries. And also Bloomberg journal Haze Fan ... and I think actually Haze's case might be as close as China has gotten so far to targeting Americans because even though a Chinese national, she worked for Bloomberg. She was a prominent journalist for Bloomberg. So it's interesting because writing this book, I'm trying to provide this nuance and context for the public but under so much pressure because of global contexts. Things are so tense that it could get worse at any moment and you don't know. You're hearing from your sources about a list that they were preparing of Americans they could possibly target. The stakes are so high.Joanna:Both of us, these are people we know. I don't know if you knew Kovrig, but it's a relief that he's back.Bill:Not well, but I did know a little bit.Joanna:For the more than 1,000 days he was in detention, I was writing this book and that was always on my mind. It's so immediate and it's so urgent for more people to understand what's going on rather than I think fanning the flames or making things worse or not using the opportunities there are to engage more productively with China. But we see the dialogue on China becoming so toxic right now, where it's almost as if there's two camps. The more extreme on both sides seem to get more airtime and interest. And people want those nuggets of talking points on China that really signify this is how we fight back. Rather than the people who are trying to provide a lot more context. It's not as easy as doing this or that to resolve everything or get what you want.Bill:Well with what you said earlier about sort of "we have to win," I have yet to see a clear definition of the theory of victory and what it is. The other thing I'd say, and this will lead into my next question is, we talk about in many ways how toxic the discourse has gotten in the West. It's also incredibly toxic inside China in very worrisome ways. And in many ways, sort of state-supported and state-encouraged ways. One of the questions I want to ask you is how we ... So first question is as you talk about in the book and you've talked about in other places, this whole discussion around Chinese Communist Party influence or interference in other countries ... Whether it's through the United Front or other means or vectors ... How do we differentiate what we should actually, "we" being the countries that are targeted ... How should you differentiate what actually matters that people should be concerned with versus that's the normal thing that a foreign government would do to try and improve other countries' perceptions of that country and advance their interests in those countries.Bill:And related, as this discourse does get more toxic, how do we talk about these things without tipping into racism? In the U.S. certainly, we have a really long and nasty history of anti-Asian and specifically anti-Chinese racism. And there are a lot of reasons to be very worried about going too far where we're back in a very dark place in terms of how people of Asian and Chinese descent are treated in this country. But at the same time, there are real issues and potential threats coming from some of these PRC activities. So how do we talk about that in a way that effectively deals with the problems but also makes sure that people are safe and able to enjoy the rights that they deserve and have?Joanna:Yeah and that's why I try to provide a lot of that history concisely within each chapter of the book because we need to know what happened before to know to be a lot more careful with our language and our actions now. Because definitely it just seems like history is repeating itself during the McCarthy era. Chinese-Americans' loyalties are constantly questioned, they lost their jobs. And now former President Trump has said that he thinks basically all students are possibly Chinese spies. We've seen these prosecutions of certain Chinese national scientist professors in America that were basically pretty embarrassing.Bill:Yes.Joanna:It seemed a lot of the suspicions were unfounded and it was almost like a witch-hunt which is really difficult. When things seemed politicized and politically motivated and you put a blanket suspicion on all these people, it's exactly what happened in the past.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Joanna:And it's not just America. It was in Canada, Australia, Europe. In Canada, we had internment of Japanese Canadians during World War II. And people know that this is in the background. And even before things got more tense when a lot of the approach among Western countries towards China was that the goal was to expand trade ties and economic ties as much as possible, there was still a lot of racism. Walking down the street, I got called slurs like the c-word in downtown Vancouver multiple times.Bill:Recently?Joanna:Throughout my life living in Canada. In Vancouver, particularly, there was a long-standing stereotype of the crazy rich Asian that was ruining the city with our Maseratis and condo buying.Bill:Wasn't there a reality show that was based on rich Chinese in Vancouver, I think?Joanna:Yeah, there was that and there's a lot of scapegoating against East Asians for lots of problems with COVID-19 and all this with the two Michaels in Huawei. This just really spiked particularly in countries like Canada, U.S., Australia with the large Chinese diaspora in many places. People who weren't even Chinese, like an indigenous woman in Canada, she was punched in the face. Things like that. And its not like we can throw up our hands and be like, "People are just going to be racist, this is just going to happen." I think a lot of people in positions of influence and politicians need to take responsibility for what they've done to stoke this behavior and not condone it. So talking to certain politicians in Canada in the conservative party, they tell me that there's been a shift in strategy to talk about China as the Chinese Communist Party, the communist regime, to deliberately stir up a red scare. In the U.S. definitely, the FBI in an announcement about one of its investigations into a Chinese American scientist said the words "Chinese Communist regime" or "Chinese Communist government" five times.Bill:That was the announcement about the MIT professor, was it Chen Gang, I think?Joanna:Yeah, I think so.Bill:The prosecutor or the FBI folks up in Boston, I believe.Joanna:Right. Yeah, that was the one. And it's just not necessary. You don't need to ... My argument is that the facts about what Beijing is doing are urgent and sobering enough. You don't really need to embellish it with this language of trying to get people scared of this Communist entity. But perhaps it's more to do with domestic politics in each place. Someone explained it to me in the U.S. where pretty much everyone is critical of China. You don't get more attention by just being moderately critical, you have to be really more extreme. It's as if it's like a competition to be as hawkish as possible to get that acclaim and public support.Bill:And as you said, it's unnecessary because as you just said, the facts can speak for themselves in many areas. And it again, it goes back to how do we have rational discussion about what the problems and challenges are without tipping over into something that's really nasty and scary. It's something I struggle with, obviously in my newsletter, I have ... It's funny when you write about China, I have people who think I'm a CCP apologist and people who think I'm way too hawkish. You sort of can't win, it's such a fraught topic that it is something I struggle with. Because you certainly don't want to be in a position where you're stirring things up, but at the same time you can't just throw up your hands and say, "Well we're not going to deal with this because it's too dangerous." I mean, it's too dangerous the other way too, right? But it's really difficult, and the question I have is, do you think the powers in Beijing understand this? Is this something they try to use or leverage?Joanna:Oh yeah, I think so. I think it plays right into what Beijing wants. Because the myth it has been promoting for years is that China is the center of Chinese civilization even if your family has been away from China for generations, you're still Chinese. And since you're still Chinese, your de-facto leader is still the CCP. It's a legitimate power for all Chinese people. Because people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese. It's in the law, if there's dual-nationality, they don't accept the second nationality.Joanna:But even more than that, I still worry that ... it's happened to people like me. I actually gave up my Hong Kong citizenship, I'm only Canadian. But just because of my Chinese blood, I'm at greater risk of whatever repercussions. I've definitely been singled out when I was a foreign correspondent in Beijing for writing too much about human rights. And they did not say the same things about other people in my office. So by not listening to people in the diaspora and still treating them as they're still outsiders, we're with this connection to China whether we agree or not, that's really playing into it. And also when there's this racism, Chinese media, Chinese embassies, they've been really up front about condemning this and using it as a way to shore up loyalty among overseas Chinese, especially people who are more recent immigrants to get that support. There's so many of these China Friendship associations around the world. It's tough to understand their impact because it's all basically legal. They are these groups that openly support Beijing's policies all around the world. And they have, in my reporting, taken part in basically trying to make friends with politicians around the world and using those interviews, events, photographs to turn into propaganda to say, "We got support from this politician." There were groups that have offered money for people to vote for certain candidates in other countries' elections.Joanna:So it's complicated because when these groups are alienated, when they still feel that ... On a pragmatic level, it makes better sense for them to have good relations with Beijing. These groups are going to increase and proliferate and it's hard to understand what they're doing because you don't want to villainize it. In a way it's very natural for people, say, with business ties in China to try to hob-nob with Chinese embassies and try to support them. When I do report on some of these activities like the potential vote buying and interfering in elections, people use it as an excuse to say, "Oh, everyone's like that. All recent immigrants are working for the CCP." And that just puts a lot of reporters and researchers in these really tricky situations where you want to report on what's going on, but because discourse just fails to be nuanced enough, people just kind of take it as a reason to be more hostile and to not really open up their minds that there's a diversity of opinions among Chinese people and the Chinese diaspora.Bill:And it's also hard I think because so much of it happens in Mandarin or other Chinese dialects, so most people who don't speak the language have no idea what's going on.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). But it's been such a rich field of potential reporting for me, going back to Canada. It's really, really resitting. I have been able to read all of these reports. I've been able to translate these posts into English for audiences who found it really interesting. But I would argue that it's not actually that hard because there are so many Chinese speakers all over the world. It's not like it's a niche population, like a small population. In these stories where Steve Bannon and Miles Kwok's like cultish group was protesting outside a Canadian journalist's house accusing him of being a Chinese spy, when he was actually critical of Beijing. There were death threats.Bill:They did that to a bunch of people in America too. They had a whole program of targeting people.Joanna:Yeah, New Jersey.Bill:Yeah.Joanna:Yeah, so in that case. In Texas, with Pastor Bob Fu, he was one of the targets. And the FBI came in, the bomb squad, they put him and his family in a safe house. But in Canada, police monitored it, checked in once in a while. I actually sent them videos, like this looks like a death threat. And I actually ... Me and my colleagues, we translated some of this information and we posted it on YouTube to explain what was going on. But then it took three months later, this going on in Canada ... Two of these protestors just savagely beat one of the target's friends. And the police were responding to questions of why didn't you step in earlier, there were death threats? They admitted that they were slow with the investigation because they didn't have Chinese language resources. And that doesn't make sense really, in Vancouver, when there are so many people of Chinese descent. It's not hard to find someone to look at something and translate it to understand it.Joanna:In the conclusion of my book, one of the points I make is that information in Chinese language is treated like a secret code that can't be cracked. Instead, people like Newt Gingrich and other kind of just make things up. In his book, Newt Gingrich ... I don't quite remember but he just provided nonsensical translations of Chinese words and then extrapolated a whole bunch of theories about China based on that. Which is insulting to all of the people, not just of Chinese descent, but people like you who have taken the time to learn Mandarin and to understand China.Bill:There's a lot of that here in the U.S., I don't know how much it exists in other countries. But certainly the taking stuff out of context or just crappy language skills. And then, like you said, extrapolating something much bigger and darker and nefarious than in many cases it actually is, for sure.Joanna:Yeah. In the U.S. people tell me that they do have Chinese speakers, but lower down in the chain who provide reports and information. But going up the chain, the politicians and the pundits, they pick and choose information to support what they believe already. So these researchers feel like they're not even being heard because politicians are just grabbing what they want anyways. In many cases, people of Chinese descent are worried about even going to China or talking about their family in China because they're not going to get promoted to more influential positions. They're not going to get security clearance because the assumption is that if you have any sort of China ties that you might be compromised. And that's a very prejudicious trend in D.C.Bill:When I moved back to D.C. after ten years, I had no interest in working for the government, but I had a funny conversation with someone who does have security clearance. He says, "Don't even bother to apply, you'll never get a security clearance because you lived in China for too long."Joanna:That's crazy.Bill:That's fine, but there are reasons for governments to be concerned with ties to other foreign governments, but certainly for folks of Chinese descent it's much more pernicious. And it does seem like in many places the assumption is that you're potentially at risk of compromise. One of the problems is how people's families are being leveraged back in China. You see it in the way the persecutions of the Uyghurs and Tibetans. But you see it also in Han Chinese, people who are doing things that are considered controversial or anti-China outside of China. It's a very common tactic, right, to harass, hassle, otherwise make difficult for family members back in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, and that is a major ... There's no solution to that. I tried to spotlight a lot of these voices in the book. I spoke with people like Vicky Xu, the campaign against her has just been ridiculous. People made fake porn of her, thousands of accounts were basically attacking her, doxxing her.Bill:I feel like that story didn't get as much attention as maybe it should have. She was just so brutally targeted by very obviously state-backed campaigns.Joanna:Yeah. Very personal and they started with her family. She's been open about that, how her family and parents have been pressured. But she didn't stop her work, so they went further. They sent thousands of accounts and they made fake pornography about her so that when people search in Chinese, that's what comes up. And trying to completely smear her character. But that story did not get that much attention.Bill:This is because of her work at the ASPI down in Australia, right? Specifically around XinjiangJoanna:Xinjiang, yeah. I think she's one of the main researchers in Australia that focused on Xinjiang. The bigger issues looking at supply chains, looking at forced labor, and where internment camps are. Recently she found a trove of police documents about the repression. And because of her fluent Chinese and her networks, she was able to find this and provide this information. So people like her, I think, Beijing wants the most to silence and has the means and leverage to try to do so. I think she's unique in that she continues to do this work. We're not sure for how long because you have to wonder how long someone can take this.Bill:Right.Joanna:More people that I know of are either operating anonymously, they're really providing subtle advising roles to governments in a very very anonymous manner. Because they're worried about their families. Or they're writing under pseudonyms and they don't get a lot of attention because no one knows who they are. They're worried about ... not even access. I think a lot of researchers worry about being able to go back to China. At different levels, people who are worried about the safety of themselves and their family members.Bill:So just given the trajectory of China under Xi Jinping, is there any reason to think this is going to get better? Or are we sort of more close to the beginning of where this trajectory goes?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think we're kind of at a pivotal point. A lot of it isn't waiting for what Beijing does, but there's a responsibly on Western countries to at least be smarter about China and to have proper expertise in places of governments to try to even have some well thought out policy on these issues. In the U.S. Cabinet, very little China experience. And like we talked about, the people with experience ... They have trouble having influence. And in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will. I think the amount of criticism in different countries' media doesn't reflect the lack of political will of governments to even put the basic structures in place to understand China better. To be able to translate basic things from Chinese into English to be aware of.Bill:And in Canada, why do you thing that is? Especially given the diversity of Canada and the number of people of Chinese descent in the country. But also what just happened over the last close to three years. Why wouldn't the government have had a bit more of a shift in views of how the relationship in China should go?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think it's related partly to what we were talking about before where politicians are worried about stoking racism, losing support from Canadians of Chinese descent. Partly an election issue, and I think traditionally in Canada, the main government advisors on China have been people in the business world who do have a vested interest in making sure that tensions are as low as possible to facilitate smoother business interactions. But that's also not even the case where if you ... I think the idea in the West has been reformed through trade. Through interactions, economically, China will naturally liberalize, become more democratic. But in recent years, we've seen political tensions move over to economic coercion, economic retaliation. Not just from China but back and forth, with America, Australia, other countries have also did tit-for-tat trade tariffs. Different ways where the political situation can impact the economic relationships. So it's not even necessarily the case that just by focusing on business, everything will be all good. I think a lot of politicians are trying to put their head in the sands about that and not trying to understand the really complex situation unfolding. And Canadians on the whole, surveys show, pretty frustrated about the situation in action and just passiveness that they see from Ottawa.Bill:I guess the Huawei decision will be interesting, whether or not Huawei is allowed into the Canadian 5G network construction. Certainly here in D.C., there's all the factors you talked about and there's a lot of opportunity for lobbyists from various industries and companies to sort of shift Biden administration and Capitol thinking to policies that are more likely to make money dealing with China. And that certainly has an impact on the policies. So just shifting gears quickly because we're almost out of time and this has been a really great conversation. One of the things we were talking about was lifting up and getting more diversity of voices. Can you tell the listeners about NüVoices and what you helped create there? I found that to be a really wonderful and useful project that's been up for a couple years now? Or has it been three years? Time just sort of blended away with the pandemic, right?Joanna:So actually we were founded in 2017.Bill:Oh my gosh, okay.Joanna:In Beijing, so it's almost under five years. It's been like a daily kind of passion project in the community for me. We kind of wanted to create a more open and accepting China space, both in person with events and chapters around the world and also virtually. And it started in reaction with panels and book deals. The people who get platformed on China are often white male experts. No offense to yourself.Bill:People like me. No, no, I get it. I get it.Joanna:You're one of our longtime supporters and our patrons and we've spoken about how this helps to create a better world for your kids, for your daughters. Because we want to remove any excuses that people have for not even having one woman on their panel. Five years ago, people just kept saying to us and our co-founders, "We tried to find a female expert, but we couldn't find one." Or "We couldn't find a woman on this topic." Which is ridiculous because looking around, actually people we know, I see more women than men entering these fields. Definitely being a journalist in China, there's more women than men. And women who can speak Chinese and doing great work. So we created this open-source directory. Now it has more than 600 people all around the world who are women or non-binary on all sorts of topics. And speaking all sorts of languages in all sorts of time zones. I think just that project alone helped to remove those excuses. Any time someone makes an excuse that they couldn't find a woman, someone just has to send that person the link to this directory. No more excuses.Joanna:And on top of that we have a twice monthly podcast which I co-host sometimes and events all around the world. And basically social groups and networks and it's a platform so that people can benefit from this supportive atmosphere. We really try and celebrate diverse voices on China, experts on China. I find that women tend to ... because they're facing so much discrimination, women experts often have to fight harder to provide unique insights and reporting. So the kind of good quality you get just reaching out to any female expert in China, its a pretty good bet on fresh and interesting perspectives. And definitely I found that the case with my book. Because you know I tried to practice what I preach and most of my sources are coming from diverse backgrounds, women and minorities ... I shouldn't even use the word "minorities", people who aren't white basically.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative) right.Joanna:In each country, and I think that provides a different layer than people who enjoy positions of more power in those countries, who might not see some of the more uglier sides or the more complicated sides because that's not their experience. They're not getting the five star treatment when they go to China that a lot people in power do.Bill:It's definitely one of the things I enjoy about your book, it does have these different perspectives that are so important as we are all sort of trying to figure out what's going on and start thinking about what we can do. Specifically, NüVoices, I was looking at the directory last week. I think it's like 620 entries or something, I'm certainly planning to mine it for guests for the podcast because it's a really tremendous resource. And I will put a link to it in the show notes when we publish the podcast. Well thank you so much, is there anything else you'd like to add or say to the audience? Other than buy your book, "China Unbound", it's a great book. Please go ahead and go buy it and read it. It's a great book.Joanna:Just asking yourself, being based in the U.S., what are the best avenues for a more productive conversations on China? Instead of going to people who are more simplistic, what are some more resources you'd recommend? Including, of course your newsletter and that community. But who's doing the work to make up more well-informed approaches?Bill:That's a great question, and I'm not actually sure I have a good answer. I'm struggling with that and part of it is maybe that I'm based in D.C. where it is quite ... It's difficult to be in D.C. and to be not hawkish about China if you want to get ahead in certain parts of the government here. And so, I'm not actually sure. I know that there's China Twitter ... I mean Twitter in general is just kind of a cesspool and China Twitter is not a productive or constructive place for discourse about anything. I don't know, I wish I had a better answer for you, I need to think about it more.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Bill:Do you have any guesses or any suggestions?Joanna:I was expecting a more simplified reaction to my book, but actually all the events I've been doing so far are conversations with academics and fellow reporters have been really nuanced. And it seems like there's a hunger for people who want to admit there are no simple solutions and to talk about that. But it doesn't' seem like here's a particular space or a think tank that has that approach. It seems-Bill:The think tanks probably are the place. I mean there are other ... The folks at SupChina are trying to do that. I don't know if you've talked to them. Kaiser's got his podcast and they do their conference. I think their conference ... We're recording on the 1st of November so they're I think next week. But in general, I don't know, it's also ... Like anything, it's hard to have a more textured or kind of deeper discussion in these 30 minute chunks or when you're sitting on a panel. It's just putting in the time and having ... Like you're doing, talking to me and you're talking to lots of people for your book. And this is a topic that has probably come up in most of your conversations and it's just something we're going to have to keep talking about. I know over the next few months there are at least two more books that are coming out about China's influence in the world. And so it'll be interesting to see where those goes in terms of how they impact or move the discourse and how those get played. And again, I think it's like I said, me struggling with how do you address these issues that are very real and influence interference without going overboard and over-exaggerating and destroying innocent people's lives. Which I think has already happened and continues to be a big risk.Joanna:I do think simple answers that people need to pay better attention and not just to get a shallow understanding, but to really understand the nitty-gritty and try to untangle complexities. And support the people who are trying to do this work. A lot of their names are in my book. If you don't want to buy it, flip to the back of the notes and you'll get their names and look up those articles. People like Yangyang Cheng, Helen Gao. People who are straddling both worlds, Chinese and Western. Because of those real lived experiences, their perspectives are just naturally very nuanced and insightful, I think. So people are doing this work, its just they're not the ones on CNN and getting book deals because of structures power. So support NüVoices.Bill:Absolutely. Like you said, I'm a supporter of NüVoices, I'm very happy to put a link to that as well. Support you through Patreon, right? We should move you over to Substack, but that's a different discussion. That's my bias. Well look, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to speak with you and I hope that many of you listeners will go out and buy the book. It's really a worthwhile read and Joanna really has great reporting, great perspectives. And this book is really important contribution to the conversation we all need to be having about China and the future and China's role in the world. So thank you and hope to talk to you again soon.Joanna:Thank you so much for all of your work, really platforming those more quality, well-informed sources on China. You've run the newsletter for a long time, so I think that makes a big difference as well because you use your expertise to point people to credible, good sources. So I'll also subscribe to your newsletter.Bill:Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

Bill Birtles joined Jonesy & Amanda to chat about his experiences as ABC's Chinese correspondent before Australia-China relations deteriorated.

Bill Birtles joined Jonesy & Amanda to chat about his experiences as ABC's Chinese correspondent before Australia-China relations deteriorated. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A warning in New South Wales as people are caught going about their business while sick with COVID; More bickering and point scoring around the vaccine roll out; And a hundred years of the Communist party in China, correspondent Bill Birtles looks at the big celebrations centred around Xi Jinping.

A warning in New South Wales as people are caught going about their business while sick with COVID; More bickering and point scoring around the vaccine roll out; And a hundred years of the Communist party in China, correspondent Bill Birtles looks at the big celebrations centred around Xi Jinping.

In September last year, the AFR's Michael Smith received a late night knock on the door by Chinese secret police, forcing him to flee his home and take consular protection for five days, until he and the ABC's Bill Birtles were safely evacuated home by Australian authorities. Michael joins Cannings On the Couch to discuss this experience and the ensuing diplomatic storm, but also how he ended up in China, what life was like there during the pandemic, and where things are likely to end up in the increasingly fraught relationship between China and Australia.  

Against the context of growing hostilities between President Xi Jinping's government and the west, nationalist agendas across the board, shocking stories about the abuse of the Uyghur population, trade wars and diplomatic flare-ups, this tightening of the flow of information sparked international alarm. But with unacceptable racism against Asians in the west on the rise, and China's global influence and economic power growing ever stronger, how do we think about the complicated China question? Listen to former ABC China correspondent Bill Birtles and China specialist Yun Jiang for this timely discussion recorded in the Playhouse and moderated by Richard Fidler. -

Australian writer Dr Yang Hengjun will go on trial today in China more than two years after he was arrested on espionage charges, which he denies. Foreign Minister Marise Payne says Chinese authorities are yet to provide any explanation or evidence on the charges facing Dr Yang despite repeated requests from Australia.

Peter Hartcher's May 22 feature story 'Access Denied' and Bill Birtles' April 30 feature story 'A Day to Pack Our Lives and Get Out' examine Australia's tenuous relationship with China from different perspectives. Moderated by Good Weekend deputy editor Greg Callaghan, the discussion covers everything from Huawei's threat to national security, President Xi Jinping's leadership style, China's troubling involvement in Hong Kong and Taiwan, and what Australia can do to manage the CCP's agenda. Read the stories here: https://www.smh.com.au/national/huawei-no-way-why-australia-banned-the-world-s-biggest-telecoms-firm-20210503-p57oc9.html  https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/a-day-to-pack-up-our-lives-and-get-out-journalist-bill-birtles-on-fleeing-china-20210305-p5785k.html  Become a subscriber: our supporters power our newsrooms and are critical for the sustainability of news coverage. Becoming a subscriber also gets you exclusive behind-the-scenes content and invitations to special events. Click on the links to subscribe https://subscribe.theage.com.au/ or https://subscribe.smh.com.au/ Please take the time to rate & review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your pods. We love to hear your thoughts and it makes it easier for the See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A former ABC foreign correspondent who fled China due to fears he'd be arrested has detailed the moment 'the fear' kicked in. Bill Birtles spoke with Neil Mitchell on Wednesday. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For the first time in five decades there are now no Australian news outlets with a correspondent in the People’s Republic of China. Mike Smith, from The Australian Financial Review, fled his Shanghai home late last year after he and ABC reporter Bill Birtles came under an unacceptable level of pressure from Chinese authorities. His new book, The Last Correspondent, describes his dramatic exit from the country as well as what life is like for people in a country that's seen huge political and social upheaval in the last two decades. Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For the first time in five decades there are now no Australian news outlets with a correspondent in the People’s Republic of China. Mike Smith, from The Australian Financial Review, fled his Shanghai home late last year after he and ABC reporter Bill Birtles came under an unacceptable level of pressure from Chinese authorities. His new book, The Last Correspondent, describes his dramatic exit from the country as well as what life is like for people in a country that's seen huge political and social upheaval in the last two decades. Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In August 2020, the CGTN anchorwoman Chéng Lěi 成蕾, an Australian citizen, was detained in Beijing. Six months later, she was formally arrested and charged with violations of China’s expansive state secrets law. This week on Sinica, Kaiser chats with ABC reporter Bill Birtles (whose involuntary departure from China was linked to Cheng Lei’s case), longtime Beijing-based Financial Times correspondent Lucy Hornby, and Chinese law specialist Donald Clarke, a professor of law at George Washington University, about the case and its relation to the deterioration of ties between Beijing and Canberra.12:19: What we know about Cheng Lei’s time in detention21:18: Reciprocal hostage taking, or something else?25:00: Dawn raids on Chinese journalists in Australia34:42: The public response to Cheng Lei’s arrestRecommendations:Lucy: Revolutions, a history podcast exploring political revolutions, hosted by Mike Duncan. Don: The Construction of Guilt in China: An Empirical Account of Routine Chinese Injustice, by Yu Mou, The Price of Peace: Money, Democracy and the Life of John Maynard Keynes, by Zachary D. Carter, and the search software X1.Bill: The politics of being Chinese in Australia, a comprehensive survey of attitudes and experiences of the Chinese-Australian community, by Jennifer Hsu. Kaiser: The British History Podcast, hosted by Jamie Jeffers.

In 2015 Bill began his dream job as the ABC's China Correspondent. Five years later, 7 State Security police officers visited him in the middle of the night and told him he was barred from leaving the country

In 2015 Bill began his dream job as the ABC's China Correspondent. Five years later, 7 State Security police officers visited him in the middle of the night and told him he was barred from leaving the country

On this episode of The Grapevine, Kulja and Dylan break down Victoria's new rental laws coming into effect in 2021 with Professor of Housing and Social Policy at Swinburne University Wendy Stone.Then, ABC's China correspondent Bill Birtles gets on the line to talk about the ‘Foreign Correspondent' Hong Kong special on ABC TV ‘City of Fear', and his coverage of China since he was forced to flee the country in September last year.And CEO of the Paul Ramsay Foundation, Professor Glyn Davis AC, discusses his new essay ‘On Life's Lottery' that addresses how entrenched intergenerational poverty puts the poor at a serious disadvantage in a meritocracy, when wealth and privilege acts intergenerationally too.

South Australians are flocking to shops and services ahead of the start at midnight of some of the strictest measures Australians have faced since the pandemic began. The tough new measures are being introduced in the hope they act as a circuit breaker on the spread of a cluster of coronavirus cases in Adelaide. We hear from those impacted and from a leading biosecurity expert, Professor Raina MacIntyre on the six day shutdown. Also: * The South Australian outbreak has quickly revealed vulnerabilities in the contingency plans of the state's neighbours. Booked hotels and a bird strike on a plane are among the reasons the NT government has got itself in difficulties after it was overwhelmed by a flood of arrivals in Alice Springs from SA. * The New South Wales gambling regulator says it's "not comfortable" with Crown Resorts opening a multi-billion-dollar venue in Sydney's Barangaroo district after a startling admission from the casino operator. * China correspondent Bill Birtles on the reaction in Beijing to the promised new defence pact between Australia and Japan. * And... Donald Trump's continuing to purge his top security officials. The latest victim is Chris Krebs, the cybersecurity expert who declared this month's U-S election the "most secure in history".

South Australians are flocking to shops and services ahead of the start at midnight of some of the strictest measures Australians have faced since the pandemic began. The tough new measures are being introduced in the hope they act as a circuit breaker on the spread of a cluster of coronavirus cases in Adelaide. We hear from those impacted and from a leading biosecurity expert, Professor Raina MacIntyre on the six day shutdown. Also: * The South Australian outbreak has quickly revealed vulnerabilities in the contingency plans of the state's neighbours. Booked hotels and a bird strike on a plane are among the reasons the NT government has got itself in difficulties after it was overwhelmed by a flood of arrivals in Alice Springs from SA. * The New South Wales gambling regulator says it's "not comfortable" with Crown Resorts opening a multi-billion-dollar venue in Sydney's Barangaroo district after a startling admission from the casino operator. * China correspondent Bill Birtles on the reaction in Beijing to the promised new defence pact between Australia and Japan. * And... Donald Trump's continuing to purge his top security officials. The latest victim is Chris Krebs, the cybersecurity expert who declared this month's U-S election the "most secure in history".

Spot Awkwafina! Taika Waititi! Bill Birtles! David Bowie in ‘83! Tinder is changing the Pakistani dating landscape while Sydney is being flooded with celebrities in the heart of Downtown Chinatown. Bill Birtles ran away from us but we know Awkwafina loves chili crab while filming Marvel's Shang Chi. Sydney is where you want to be when Melbourne comes out of lockdown… Timestamp: Intro; [1:16] Unexpected Asia on Dating Apps in Pakistan + Melbourne out of COVID19 lockdown + Marvel's Shang Chi in Sydney; [13:34] Celebrities in Downtown Chinatown… like Awkwafina + Taika Waititi + Rod Steward Crew + Bill Birtles + David Bowie + Gladys Berejiklan; [19:32] Secret Asian…Asianish on BLACKPINK; [24:18] Outro. Credit to Ed Bennett, Sidney Boen and Stephanie Leung for research and scripting. Thanks guys! ***** THANK YOU LISTENERS! Thank you for listening to Captain Bagrat and supporting our Mission to Fight Boring News in Asia and Australia! YOUR MISSION should you dare to accept it is to click on a Captain Bagrat episode of your persuasion and leave a review on ApplePodcast! Click here http://ow.ly/XVVa30q07P6 SHOUT OUT + U R A WINNER | We will give everyone who have reviewed Captain Bagrat a special shout out! We will pick a winning review each month. The lucky winner will have the chance to podcast with Captain Bagrat in Downtown Chinatown! You pick the topic! Madam Chan will prep a cocktail of your choice and Liam will croon your fav song! #DoIt FANCLUB | Throw a few bucks at us each month on Patreon + TELL US WHAT YOU WANT! That'll keep us busy at the recording studio. Your support will forever be honoured with early access to new episodes, behind the scenes, patron only messages and more. Click here https://www.patreon.com/CaptainBagrat SPONSOR | Why not throw a few '00s or even ‘000s at us. In-kind sponsorship is also great. WE WILL NEVER SAY NO TO BEERS! Like Trump, we love quid pro quo deals! Contact us at Captain.Bagrat@gmail.com or Facebook to strike a deal and get your brand noticed! FOLLOW US: Facebook https://www.facebook.com/captainbagrat/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/captainbagrat/?hl=en Apple Podcast http://ow.ly/XVVa30q07P6 Spotify http://ow.ly/VlWf30q07Nm Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9jjT1khKsG4UwZRngYa2g Patreon https://www.patreon.com/CaptainBagrat Thanks for your support! Bagrat Out! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/captainbagrat/message

On Thursday 24 September, Lowy Institute's Senior Fellow for North Asia, Richard McGregor, hosted a panel discussion on Australia and China's relationship. Relations with China seem to be reaching new lows each week for Australia, with a proliferation of disputes over everything from trade to the media to COVID-19 to universities. The panel was made up of ABC's Bill Birtles and the Australian Financial Review's Michael Smith, both recently advised by the Australian government to leave China, along with Kirsty Needham, formerly of the Sydney Morning Herald and now with Reuters, for a discussion of the bilateral relationship.

Journalist Bill Birtles was bundled out of China this week after officers from China's Ministry of State Security appeared at his apartment in Beijing at midnight, declaring he were banned from leaving the country. He recounts his experience. 

Journalist Bill Birtles was bundled out of China this week after officers from China's Ministry of State Security appeared at his apartment in Beijing at midnight, declaring he were banned from leaving the country. He recounts his experience. 

In this episode of Policy, Guns and Money, Michael Shoebridge speaks with Darshana Baruah, Non-resident scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. They discuss India's Navy and maritime goals, the Quad and Australia-India relations. Peter Jennings and Brendan Nicholson consider the return of Australian journalists Bill Birtles and Mike Smith from China and the general state of the Australia - China relationship. Authors Fergus Ryan and Daria Impiombato speak to Tom Uren about their recent report into censorship on TikTok and WeChat. Report: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/tiktok-wechat People: Peter Jennings: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/peter-jennings Brendan Nicholson: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/brendan-nicholson Michael Shoebridge: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/michael-shoebridge Darshana Baruah: https://carnegieindia.org/experts/1253 Fergus Ryan: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/fergus-ryan Daria Impiombato: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/daria-impiombato Tom Uren: https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/tom-uren Background music: "RhythmOrganyzer" by 'Noir Et Blanc Vie' via the YouTube Audio Library.

Recording early afternoon on Wednesday 7 September, Allan and Darren begin by grappling with the previous day’s news of the arrival back in Australia of the last two China correspondents from Australian media outlets: the ABC’s Bill Birtles and the AFR’s Mike Smith. Darren tries to piece together his own theory of what happened, and Allan offers some insight on the mechanics behind DFAT’s role in cases like these, both in warning Australians of risks, and then the decision to shelter them, in this case while negotiating their safe departure from China. Note that the conversation occurred before more details emerged of allegations by PRC state media of “raids” on PRC journalists in Australia by national security agencies, and news of the cancellation of visas for two Chinese scholars. The discussion turns next to the speech delivered by the Deputy Head of Mission at the Chinese embassy, Wang Xining, at the National Press Club in late August. Allan explains the types of constraints on all diplomats in giving a speech like this, and both he and Darren agree that the prepared text did seem to lean more towards conciliatory than provocative. In the context of a very low month in the bilateral relationship, which also included new investigations into Australian wine exports, the detention of another Australian citizen, CGTN anchor Cheng Lei, and Australia's blocking of an acquisition by a PRC company of a Japanese-owned milk processing company on national interest grounds, they wonder whether the speech will have any lasting impact. In light of some recent analysis Darren asks, is Australia only recently “standing up” to China, or has Australia’s approach been consistent, as claimed by PM Morrison? Allan and Darren both weigh on the Foreign Affairs Bill announced by the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister recently, which if it becomes law is expected to enable Canberra to cancel the Belt and Road Initiative MOU signed by the State of Victoria. As a historian of Australian foreign policy, Allan cannot recall a single issue where state actions have been a real problem for Australian foreign policy, and he observes that the “national interest” test could be wielded in very different ways by different governments into the future. Finally, the two discuss the legacy of retiring Japanese Prime Minster Abe Shinzo, and Allan offers his view on the merits of former PM Tony Abbott taking a position advising the UK government on trade policy. We thank AIIA intern Mitchell McIntosh for his help with research and audio editing and XC Chong for research support. Thanks as always to Rory Stenning for composing our theme music. Relevant Links Matthew Doran and Stephen Dziedzic, “Australian correspondents Bill Birtles and Mike Smith pulled out of China after five-day diplomatic standoff over national security case”, ABC News, 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-08/bill-birtles-mike-smith-evacuated-china-safety-concerns/12638786   “Political retaliation: China correspondent Bill Birtles on being forced home under threats from Beijing”, ABC PM (Radio), 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/pm/china-correspondent-bill-birtles-on-being-forced-home/12642502 Jade Macmillan, “Cheng Lei, Australian anchor detained in Beijing, accused of 'endangering China's national security'”, ABC News, 8 September 2020: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-08/australian-anchor-cheng-lei-china-endanger-national-security/12642596   Global Times, “Australian agents raid Chinese journalists' residences, seize computers 'in violation of legitimate rights': source”, 8 September 2020: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1200286.shtml   Wang Xining, “China and Australia: Where to from here?”, Address at the National Press Club, 26 August 2020: http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/gdtp_16/t1809360.htm Phillip Coorey, “Morrison sticks to new China doctrine”, Australian Financial Review, 31 August 2020: https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/morrison-sticks-to-new-china-doctrine-20200827-p55pqa Kirsy Needham, “Special Report: Australia faces down China in high-stakes strategy”, Reuters, 4 September 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-china-relations-special-rep/special-report-australia-faces-down-china-in-high-stakes-strategy-idUSKBN25V1GM Elena Collinson and James Laurenceson, “Australia-China Monthly Wrap-Up: August 2020”, Australia-China Relations Institute (ACRI), 3 September 2020: https://www.australiachinarelations.org/content/australia-china-monthly-wrap-august-2020 Fergus Ryan, Audrey Fritz and Daria Impiombato, “TikTok and WeChat: Curating and controlling global information flows”, ASPI Policy Brief 37/2020, 8 September 2020: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/tiktok-wechat PM Scott Morrison and FM Marise Payne, Press Conference, Australian Parliament House, 27 August 2020: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/press-conference-australian-parliament-house-act-27aug20 Melissa Conley-Tyler, “Morrison’s foreign relations bill should not pass parliament. Here’s why”, The Conversation (AU), 7 September 2020: https://theconversation.com/morrisons-foreign-relations-bill-should-not-pass-parliament-heres-why-145615 Leader, “Abe Shinzo’s legacy is more impressive than his muted exit suggests”, The Economist, 3 September 2020: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/09/03/abe-shinzos-legacy-is-more-impressive-than-his-muted-exit-suggests Kevin Rawlinson and Heather Stewart, “No 10 urged to revoke trade role for 'misogynist' Tony Abbott”, The Guardian, 3 September 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/03/government-pressured-to-backtrack-on-trade-role-for-tony-abbott “Adam Tooze on the geopolitics of the pandemic”, Sinica Podcast, 6 August 2020: https://supchina.com/podcast/adam-tooze-on-the-geopolitics-of-the-pandemic/ “Adam Tooze on our financial past and future”, Conversations with Tyler podcast, 6 May 2020: https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/adam-tooze-tyler-cowen-covid-19-economics-46a9b28a2f59 “Nuzzel” app: https://developers.nuzzel.com/

The Chinese government is claiming Australian authorities searched and seized items from the homes of four Chinese state media reporters in Australia. - Dopo l'arrivo in Australia di due giornalisti scappati da Pechino per evitare l'arresto, la Cina accusa Canberra di ipocrisia.

Michael speaks with Senator Kimberly Kitching, Senator for Victoria & Shadow Assistant Minister for Government Accountability, who is part of a global coalition of MPs from democratic nations condemning China's intimidation of two Australian journalists.  For the first time since 1973 Australia has no correspondents in China after the departure, orchestrated by diplomats in Beijing and Shanghai, of the ABC's Bill Birtles and The Australian Financial Review's Mike Smith. This follows the arrest of Australian citizen Cheng Lei last month who was employed by China's English-language state broadcaster CGTN as an anchor. See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

The China correspondents for the ABC and the Australian Financial Review have arrived in Sydney after they were rushed out of the country on Monday night.

Australian journalists are rushed out of China after warnings from the embassy and unwanted attention from Chinese police; the ABC’s Bill Birtles is one of the journalists who escaped, he tells PM he feels like a “pawn in a bigger game”.

Australian journalists are rushed out of China after warnings from the embassy and unwanted attention from Chinese police; the ABC’s Bill Birtles is one of the journalists who escaped, he tells PM he feels like a “pawn in a bigger game”.

An unintended and hasty return home for ABC journalist Bill Birtles, and Australian Financial Review journalist Michael Smith.

Two Australian journalists have made a desperate dash back to Australia after fearing for their safety in China. The Australian Financial Review’s Michael Smith and the ABC’s Bill Birtles both left China on Monday night after a tense diplomatic standoff, which Australia’s foreign minister called a “very disappointing series of events”. AFR editor Paul Bailey says it was "chilling" to hear how Police knocked on the door of the journalist's homes after midnight on Thursday to tell them they were part of an investigation.  See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

ABC’s Bill Birtles and the Australian Financial Review’s Michael Smith have landed on home soil, escaping what has been deemed a ‘diplomatic standoff’. The two Australian journalists have been rushed home due to safety concerns, but the situation continues to raise questions surrounding a potential naivety towards our ties to China.  With a strong reliance on Chinese foreign affairs and trade relations, how will escalating tensions impact Australia? Is there freedom of speech for our foreign correspondents?  Clive Hamilton joins John Stanley to discuss this issue in light of his newest novel, ‘Hidden Hand’, exposing the Chinese Communist Party and its threat to democractic freedoms.  See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Bill Birtles, ABC's China Correspondent explains the deteriorating Aus-China relationship, the WHO probe into COVID-19 and China's harsh calls to boycott and impose tariffs on Australian imported goods. The future of Australia's relationship with China is hard to pinpoint. However, it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Listen to this episode to hear Bill Birtles discuss trade, the Belt & Road Initiative and how the US is involved in AUS-China relations. Want to hear more about a certain topic? Submit a suggestion here.

Against the backdrop of COVID-19, what's been going on with China and the US, and what does this mean for the global economic and strategic landscape? We discuss civil unrest in the US, trade wars, situation in Hong Kong, and more – with Chinese politics scholar Minglu Chen, Asia-Pacific security expert Jingdong Yuan and political scientist David Smith. Bill Birtles, ABC's China Correspondent, moderates this conversation. For more information, including the podcast transcript, visit our website: https://bit.ly/2LsUpAl

Rumours are intensifying about Kim Jong-un's condition as a Chinese team including health care experts is dispatched into North Korea to treat him, Reuters reports.The trip by Chinese doctors and officials to Pyongyang comes after reports the North Korean leader was in a critical condition after cardiovascular surgery.A delegation including the medical staff and led by a senior member of the Chinese Communist Party's International Liaison Department left Beijing for North Korea on Thursday.Earlier in the week, South Korean news site Daily NK reported Kim was recovering after undergoing a cardiovascular procedure on April 12.US officials said they were told Kim's condition was critical after the surgery, although President Donald Trump has since cast doubt on the report.Seoul officials and a source within the Liaison Department have challenged reports Kim was gravely ill.Speculation about Kim's condition has escalated in the two weeks since he was last seen in public, at a politburo meeting on April 11.On April 15, he was conspicuous in his absence from birthday celebrations of the founder of the North Korean state, his grandfather and state founder Kim Il Sung.Kim has been out of the public eye for extended periods in the past, and North Korea's secretive nature allows few outsiders to assert confidently whether he might be unwell, let alone incapacitated. Still, questions about the North's political future are likely to grow if he fails to attend upcoming public events.Kim is the third generation of his family to rule North Korea, and a strong personality cult has been built around him, his father and grandfather. The family's mythical "Paektu" bloodline, named after the highest peak on the Korean Peninsula, is said to give only direct family members the right to rule the nation.That makes Kim's younger sister, senior ruling party official Kim Yo Jong, the most likely candidate to step in if her brother is gravely ill, incapacitated or dies. But some experts say a collective leadership, which could end the family's dynastic rule, could also be possible."Among the North's power elite, Kim Yo Jong has the highest chance to inherit power, and I think that possibility is more than 90 per cent," said analyst Cheong Seong-Chang at the private Sejong Institute in South Korea."North Korea is like a dynasty, and we can view the Paektu descent as royal blood so it's unlikely for anyone to raise any issue over Kim Yo Jong taking power."Believed to be in her early 30s, Kim Yo Jong is in charge of North Korea's propaganda affairs, and earlier this month was made an alternate member of the powerful Politburo.She has frequently appeared with her brother at public activities, standing out among elderly male officials. She accompanied Kim Jong Un on his high-stakes summits with President Donald Trump and other world leaders. Her proximity to him during those summits led many outsiders to believe she's essentially North Korea's No. 2 official."I think the basic assumption would be that maybe it would be someone in the family" to replace Kim Jong Un, US national security adviser Robert O'Brien told reporters this week."But again, it's too early to talk about that because we just don't know, you know, what condition Chairman Kim is in and we'll have to see how it plays out."The fact North Korea is an extremely patriarchal society has led some to wonder if Kim Yo Jong would only serve as a temporary figurehead and then be replaced by a collective leadership similar to ones established after the deaths of other Communist dictators."North Korean politics and the three hereditary power transfers have been male-centred. I wonder whether she can really overcome bloody socialist power struggles and exercise her power," said Nam Sung-wook, a professor at Korea University in South Korea.A collective leadership would likely be headed by Choe Ryong Hae, North Korea's ceremonial head of state who officially ranked No. 2 in the cou...

Rumours are intensifying about Kim Jong-un's condition as a Chinese team including health care experts is dispatched into North Korea to treat him, Reuters reports.The trip by Chinese doctors and officials to Pyongyang comes after reports the North Korean leader was in a critical condition after cardiovascular surgery.A delegation including the medical staff and led by a senior member of the Chinese Communist Party's International Liaison Department left Beijing for North Korea on Thursday.Earlier in the week, South Korean news site Daily NK reported Kim was recovering after undergoing a cardiovascular procedure on April 12.US officials said they were told Kim's condition was critical after the surgery, although President Donald Trump has since cast doubt on the report.Seoul officials and a source within the Liaison Department have challenged reports Kim was gravely ill.Speculation about Kim's condition has escalated in the two weeks since he was last seen in public, at a politburo meeting on April 11.On April 15, he was conspicuous in his absence from birthday celebrations of the founder of the North Korean state, his grandfather and state founder Kim Il Sung.Kim has been out of the public eye for extended periods in the past, and North Korea's secretive nature allows few outsiders to assert confidently whether he might be unwell, let alone incapacitated. Still, questions about the North's political future are likely to grow if he fails to attend upcoming public events.Kim is the third generation of his family to rule North Korea, and a strong personality cult has been built around him, his father and grandfather. The family's mythical "Paektu" bloodline, named after the highest peak on the Korean Peninsula, is said to give only direct family members the right to rule the nation.That makes Kim's younger sister, senior ruling party official Kim Yo Jong, the most likely candidate to step in if her brother is gravely ill, incapacitated or dies. But some experts say a collective leadership, which could end the family's dynastic rule, could also be possible."Among the North's power elite, Kim Yo Jong has the highest chance to inherit power, and I think that possibility is more than 90 per cent," said analyst Cheong Seong-Chang at the private Sejong Institute in South Korea."North Korea is like a dynasty, and we can view the Paektu descent as royal blood so it's unlikely for anyone to raise any issue over Kim Yo Jong taking power."Believed to be in her early 30s, Kim Yo Jong is in charge of North Korea's propaganda affairs, and earlier this month was made an alternate member of the powerful Politburo.She has frequently appeared with her brother at public activities, standing out among elderly male officials. She accompanied Kim Jong Un on his high-stakes summits with President Donald Trump and other world leaders. Her proximity to him during those summits led many outsiders to believe she's essentially North Korea's No. 2 official."I think the basic assumption would be that maybe it would be someone in the family" to replace Kim Jong Un, US national security adviser Robert O'Brien told reporters this week."But again, it's too early to talk about that because we just don't know, you know, what condition Chairman Kim is in and we'll have to see how it plays out."The fact North Korea is an extremely patriarchal society has led some to wonder if Kim Yo Jong would only serve as a temporary figurehead and then be replaced by a collective leadership similar to ones established after the deaths of other Communist dictators."North Korean politics and the three hereditary power transfers have been male-centred. I wonder whether she can really overcome bloody socialist power struggles and exercise her power," said Nam Sung-wook, a professor at Korea University in South Korea.A collective leadership would likely be headed by Choe Ryong Hae, North Korea's ceremonial head of state who officially ranked No. 2 in the cou...

China correspondent Bill Birtles travels to South Korea and is struck by how people carried on as usual.

China correspondent Bill Birtles travels to South Korea and is struck by how people carried on as usual.

China correspondent Bill Birtles travels to South Korea and is struck by how people carried on as usual.

China correspondent Bill Birtles travels to South Korea and is struck by how people carried on as usual.

This week we look at the Coronavirus and how it was covered by the media both here and in China. Monica Attard spoke with Bill Birtles, Rachel Clun and Kirsty Needham.

China correspondent Bill Birtles flew to the viral epicenter of Wuhan recently with cameraman Brant Cumming recenlty, and life became a tad anxious.

China correspondent Bill Birtles flew to the viral epicenter of Wuhan recently with cameraman Brant Cumming recenlty, and life became a tad anxious.

China correspondent Bill Birtles flew to the viral epicenter of Wuhan recently with cameraman Brant Cumming recenlty, and life became a tad anxious.

In a rare interview, Prince Andrew spoke to the BBC about his relationship with convicted sex offender and billionaire Jeffrey Epstein. However, his interview has been dubbed a trainwreck and a PR nightmare. Plus, we chat to ABC reporter Bill Birtles about the Hong Kong protests, as police and protesters clashed at a university overnight. And Israel Folau is back in the news, this time for arguing the deadly east coast bushfires are a sign God is punishing Australia for allowing same-sex marriage and abortion.

ABC China correspondent Bill Birtles was in Tiananmen Square to witness the parade which veered between feelings of the Cold War to the Sydney Mardi Gras.

On this week’s program: Why covering the courts in China is so unique with China correspondent Bill Birtles; New Year brings a new Emperor in Japan with Jake Sturmer; And the ABC’s Middle East bureau farewells camera operator Aaron Hollett.

On this week’s program: Middle East correspondent Eric Tlozek covered a brief but deadly flare-up in the conflict between Israel and militant groups in Gaza; A NASA spacecraft finally reached an asteroid called Bennu. Correspondents Report asks astrophysicist Katie Mack what we could learn from this 'potentially hazardous near-Earth object'; And bikes and bureaucrats, getting the shot in Beijing with China correspondent Bill Birtles.

As summer approaches, we take a look back at Foreign Correspondent's feature on China's home-grown rubbish crisis. It opened with some startling images of our China correspondent Bill Birtles just outside Beijing, walking between thousands of dumped bicycles.

Beijing has transformed from a distinctively Chinese city into one that looks familiar to all international travellers with international brands everywhere, but China correspondent Bill Birtles has a place he likes to go to that hasn't lost its old school charm.

On this week's Correspondents Report: Correspondent Stephanie March farewells Washington; we take a close look at a regime which controlled Portugal for almost half a century; and China correspondent Bill Birtles takes us to Beijing's largest bird, fish and animal market.

On this week's edition: Conor Duffy on gun crime in the US capital; Adam Harvey on Lebanon's lucrative cannabis industry; Bill Birtles on a Chinese boy whose plight caught the hearts of ABC viewers; and Samantha Hawley settles into London life.

China is unquestionably a country on the rise.

On this episode we speak with the ABC’s China Correspondent Bill Birtles on covering China for an Australian audience. We discuss sourcing stories as diverse as waste, the economy, trade war, the AFL in China, Chinese politics, the Australia-China relationship, Chinese millennials and even the rare issue dog meat in China. We look at the life of a foreign correspondent in Beijing from responding to stories as they break, utilising Chinese language in interviews, VISA renewal and gaining access to Chinese government spokespeople. Bill also shares his experience working for Chinese English language media and what the average Chinese person thinks of Australia.

This week on Fourth Estate, we mark International Press Freedom Day with a special conversation with Bill Birtles, the ABC's China Correspondent. Host Olivia Rosenman spoke to Bill about what it's like being a journalist in a country that ranks close to the bottom for press freedom. We also discussed how Chinese people use social media and how despite censorship, online technology is an even more prevalent part of their daily lives than in Australia. Fourth Estate is produced by 2SER 107.3 radio in Sydney and is broadcast across the Community Radio Network in Australia.