Podcast appearances and mentions of Michael Kovrig

U.S. Ambassador to Canada Pete Hoekstra delivers remarks at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce's B7 summit in Ottawa. Over the past two days, 130 Member States participated at the UN Peacekeeping Ministerial in Berlin - with more than 60 Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Defense participating.  UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, briefed the media following a ceremony where more than 70 Member States made pledges of needed capabilities and support to UN Peacekeeping, including 81 military and police units, as well as in the areas of capacity-building partnerships, Women, Peace, and Security, Safety and Security, Technology, environment, conduct and accountability and strategic communications and Information Integrity. Participants at the B7 summit in Ottawa take questions from the press. Hosted by the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, the three-day summit brings together business leaders from G7 countries to discuss economic challenges and make policy recommendations. Speaking with reporters are chamber representatives Candace Laing (president and CEO) and Matthew Holmes (executive vice president and chief of public policy), as well as Michael Kovrig (senior adviser, Asia-Pacific for the International Crisis Group), Shachi Kurl (president of the Angus Reid Institute), and Erin O'Toole (managing director, ADIT North America and former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada).Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/policy-and-rights--3339563/support.

The Front Bench: Former BC premier Christy Clark, former Conservative minister Tony Clement, former NDP MP Nathan Cullen; former Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig; Nik Nanos, Nanos Research.

Last week, reports surfaced that four Canadian nationals were executed in the People's Republic of China earlier this year on drug-related charges. This deeply troubling development represents a new and grave chapter in the ongoing deterioration of Sino-Canadian relations. Beyond the human tragedy, these executions raise urgent questions regarding the state of diplomacy, the role of international legal norms, and the broader strategic posture of China on the global stage. At a time when geopolitical tensions are escalating - marked by intensifying U.S.–China rivalry, global economic fragmentation, and growing scrutiny of China's human rights record - Canada finds itself navigating a precarious diplomatic landscape. The challenge is not merely bilateral, but emblematic of the broader struggles that middle powers face in balancing national interests, moral imperatives, and strategic alliances. As China's global strategy continues to evolve, it is critical that Canadians and the international community alike deepen their understanding of its geopolitical ambitions, regional influence, and approach to international engagement. This week on Beyond the Headlines, we are honoured to welcome Michael Kovrig, Senior Adviser for Asia at the International Crisis Group and Chief Executive Officer of the Kovrig Group, a geopolitical risk consultancy. Mr. Kovrig is a distinguished expert in international affairs whose research and advisory work focuses on geopolitics, geoeconomics, global security, and human rights, with a particular emphasis on China, the Indo-Pacific region, and related Western foreign policy. He previously served for over a decade as a Canadian diplomat, with postings in Ottawa, at the United Nations, and in Beijing. His professional background also includes roles in strategic communications at the United Nations Development Group, as well as journalism and economic research with a focus on China and Central and Eastern Europe. Mr. Kovrig holds a master's degree in international affairs from Columbia University and is fluent in both French and Mandarin Chinese. From 2014 to 2021, he resided in China, where he was arbitrarily detained by the Ministry of State Security for nearly three years. Widely regarded as a case of politically motivated hostage diplomacy, his detention drew international condemnation. Drawing on both his personal experience and professional expertise, Mr. Kovrig offers a unique and authoritative perspective on the shifting contours of China's foreign policy, the evolving nature of Canada–China relations, and the role of diplomacy in an increasingly polarized international landscape. Produced by: Sadie McIntosh & Daniel Ebrahimpour  

News that China had executed four Canadian nationals emerged last week, just as the country imposed tariffs on a range of Canadian products. Given that, and the increasingly unstable world order, how should Canada be thinking about its relationship with China? Michael Kovrig, the former Canadian diplomat detained by China for more than a thousand days, explains why he thinks that country should be seen as both an adversary and a trade partner.

Michael Kovrig, Fmr. Canadian Diplomat; David MacNaughton, Fmr. Canadian Ambassador to the U.S. & Jody Thomas, Fmr. National Security Adviser to Justin Trudeau; The Front Bench with: Sharan Kaur, Jamie Ellerton, Karl Bélanger & Hannah Thibedeau.

Former Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig joins Vassy Kapelos, Kovrig said China's execution of Canadians is 'demonstrating what kind of China it wants the world to see.' Listen to the full conversation. On todays show: Listen to Vassy's full conversation with Former ambassador to the U.S. David MacNaughton and Jody Tomas, former national security advisor to Justin Trudeau, as they discuss Canada's trade strategy. CTV science and technology specialist Dan Riskin joins Vassy Kapelos for the weekly segment Talk Science to Me. Vassy Kapelos hosts ‘The Daily Debrief’ political panel discussion with Laura Stone, Queen’s Park reporter with The Globe and Mail, Robert Benzie, Queen’s Park Bureau Chief for the Toronto Star, and Mike Le Couteur, Senior Political Correspondent, CTV National News. Bill Robson, President and CEO of the C.D. Howe Institute joins Vassy to discuss C.D. Howe Institute’s 2025 Shadow Budget report.

One evening, Michael Kovrig, a former Canadian diplomat, grabbed a late dinner in Beijing with his partner. When they arrived back at his apartment, men in black were waiting for them. Mr Kovrig was pushed into a waiting SUV. Handcuffed and blindfolded, he was driven to a detention centre in southern Beijing that would be his home for the next 1,019 days. September 24th 2024 is the third anniversary of Mr Kovrig's release. And now he is ready to talk publicly about his ordeal.On the Weekend Intelligence, we bring you the first in a two-part series from Drum Tower, our weekly podcast on China. David Rennie, The Economist's geopolitics editor, speaks with Mr Kovrig about the night he was seized, and how his detention was part of a far bigger geopolitical game.Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—subscribe to Economist Podcasts+.For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One evening, Michael Kovrig, a former Canadian diplomat, grabbed a late dinner in Beijing with his partner. When they arrived back at his apartment, men in black were waiting for them. Mr Kovrig was pushed into a waiting SUV. Handcuffed and blindfolded, he was driven to a detention centre in southern Beijing that would be his home for the next 1,019 days. September 24th 2024 is the third anniversary of Mr Kovrig's release. And now he is ready to talk publicly about his ordeal.On the Weekend Intelligence, we bring you the first in a two-part series from Drum Tower, our weekly podcast on China. David Rennie, The Economist's geopolitics editor, speaks with Mr Kovrig about the night he was seized, and how his detention was part of a far bigger geopolitical game.Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—subscribe to Economist Podcasts+.For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account.

Der Fall sorgte weltweit für Schlagzeilen: Die Kanadier Michael Kovrig und Michael Spavor wurden im Dezember 2018 in China verhaftet - und saßen mehrere Jahre unter katastrophalen Bedingungen im Gefängnis. Das tragische dabei: Die "two Michaels" waren lediglich Bauernopfer in einem geopolitischen Konflikt. Einen der beiden, Michael Spavor, kenne ich persönlich sehr gut. Der andere, Michael Kovrig, hat nun erstmals in einem längeren Fernsehinterview über seine Erfahrungen berichtet. In dieser Folge des Beijing Briefing erzähle ich dir ganz persönlich, wie ich diesen spektakulären Fall chinesischer Geiseldiplomatie erlebt habe. Kontakt: BeijingBriefing@gmail.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Michael Kovrig speaks out for the first time about the grueling 1,019 days he spent in a Chinese prison; and intense fighting between Israel and Hezbollah brings the deadliest attack in Lebanon since 2006.

Michael Kovrig speaks publicly about what happened when he was detained in China. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is in New York City, for United Nations General Assembly. NB Canada Post worker says she was suspended for refusing to deliver flyers opposing gender-affirming medical care.

Diplomats are in New York to discuss the crises in Sudan, Ukraine, Gaza and Haiti. Canada's ambassador to the UN discusses the role Canada plays in addressing conflicts around the world. Plus, Michael Kovrig tells the story of his detention in China to CBC News chief correspondent Adrienne Arsenault.

On today's show: why there's a push by a local municipality to bring back vote-counting machines before the next local elections; the province wants to more-than double the amount of students in charter schools. We check in with a charter school founder from Calgary; we connect with CBC News Chief Correspondent Adrienne Arsenault to hear about her exclusive interview with Michael Kovrig, three years after he was released from custody in China.

Mostanában bele lehet futni olyan szalagcímekbe, hogy átalakul a világrend, az egypólusú világ többpólusúvá, vagy kétpólusúvá válik, válhat. De igaz ez? Erről beszélgettünk két meghívott vendégünkkel, Szele Tamás újságíróval és Kántor Endre újságíróval – direkt nem azt írjuk, hogy szakértő vendégeinkkel, pedig hát, megérdemelnék. 00:00 - intro 02:02 - az átalakuló világrendről 1:10:45 - refutálunk 1:15:01 - podcast ajánló ℹ️ SHOWNOTES ℹ️ • Huppa: https://www.facebook.com/huppahu • CyberThreat.Report: www.cyberthreat.report • Art is Business: artisbusiness.hu • Millásreggel, a gazdasági muppet show: millasreggeli.hu • Az ellenzék elismerte vereségét, a nyolc éve kormányzó párt adja Tajvan új elnökét, 444.hu: https://444.hu/2024/01/13/az-ellenzek-elismerte-vereseget-a-nyolc-eve-kormanyzo-part-adja-tajvan-uj-elnoket • Measuring the Health of the Liberal International Order, rand.org: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1994.html • Amikor nincsen béke – a többpólusú világrend illúziója, telex.hu: https://telex.hu/velemeny/2022/10/16/usa-kina-oroszorszag-ukrajna-beke-vilagrend-egypolusu-tobbpolusu-buda-peter • Vége az egypólusú világrendnek, vagy ez csupán illúzió? – Buda Péter szegedi előadása, szeged.hu: https://szeged.hu/cikk/vege-az-egypolusu-vilagrendnek-vagy-ez-csupan-illuzio-buda-peter-szegedi-eloadasa • Jön a többpólusú világ, de nem biztos, hogy jól járunk vele, g7.hu: https://g7.hu/vilag/20230421/jon-a-tobbpolusu-vilag-de-nem-biztos-hogy-jol-jarunk-vele/ • Ha Kína megszállja Tajvant, működésképtelenné válik a világ vezető chipgyártója, 24.hu: https://24.hu/kulfold/2022/08/03/megszallas-kina-tajvan-vilag-vezeto-chipgyar-tsmc/ • A kínaiak miatt nőhet a disznóhús ára nálunk is, hvg.hu: https://hvg.hu/gazdasag/20190723_sertespestis_kina • Belefulladnak az indiai rúpiába az orosz exportőrök a dollár leváltása után, vg.hu: https://www.vg.hu/nemzetkozi-gazdasag/2023/09/belefulladnak-az-indiai-rupiaba-az-orosz-exportorok-a-dollar-levaltasa-utan • Nyakunkon az újabb háború? – Amerika ősellensége szemet vetett a világ leggyorsabban fejlődő országára, portfolio.hu: https://www.portfolio.hu/global/20231207/nyakunkon-az-ujabb-haboru-amerika-osellensege-szemet-vetett-a-vilag-leggyorsabban-fejlodo-orszagara-656343 • Már majdnem sikerült lezárni korunk egyik legszörnyűbb háborúját, de most úgy néz ki, borul minden, portfolio.hu: https://www.portfolio.hu/global/20231212/mar-majdnem-sikerult-lezarni-korunk-egyik-legszornyubb-haborujat-de-most-ugy-nez-ki-borul-minden-657359 • Rémtörténet a kémtörténet: Michael Kovrig, a Huawei-csata vétlen kanadai-magyar túsza, euronews.com: https://hu.euronews.com/2021/09/27/remtortenet-a-kemtortenet-michael-kovrig-a-huawei-csata-vetlen-kanadai-magyar-tusza • A holland cég, amelynél kínai kémek futhatnak össze amerikai diplomatákkal, vg.hu: https://www.vg.hu/penz-es-tokepiac/2023/02/a-holland-ceg-amelynel-kinai-kemek-futhatnak-ossze-amerikai-diplomatakkal

Mostanában bele lehet futni olyan szalagcímekbe, hogy átalakul a világrend, az egypólusú világ többpólusúvá, vagy kétpólusúvá válik, válhat. De igaz ez? Erről beszélgettünk két meghívott vendégünkkel, Szele Tamás újságíróval és Kántor Endre újságíróval – direkt nem azt írjuk, hogy szakértő vendégeinkkel, pedig hát, megérdemelnék. 00:00 - intro 02:02 - az átalakuló világrendről 1:10:45 - refutálunk 1:15:01 - podcast ajánló ℹ️ SHOWNOTES ℹ️ • Huppa: https://www.facebook.com/huppahu • CyberThreat.Report: www.cyberthreat.report • Art is Business: artisbusiness.hu • Millásreggel, a gazdasági muppet show: millasreggeli.hu • Az ellenzék elismerte vereségét, a nyolc éve kormányzó párt adja Tajvan új elnökét, 444.hu: https://444.hu/2024/01/13/az-ellenzek-elismerte-vereseget-a-nyolc-eve-kormanyzo-part-adja-tajvan-uj-elnoket • Measuring the Health of the Liberal International Order, rand.org: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1994.html • Amikor nincsen béke – a többpólusú világrend illúziója, telex.hu: https://telex.hu/velemeny/2022/10/16/usa-kina-oroszorszag-ukrajna-beke-vilagrend-egypolusu-tobbpolusu-buda-peter • Vége az egypólusú világrendnek, vagy ez csupán illúzió? – Buda Péter szegedi előadása, szeged.hu: https://szeged.hu/cikk/vege-az-egypolusu-vilagrendnek-vagy-ez-csupan-illuzio-buda-peter-szegedi-eloadasa • Jön a többpólusú világ, de nem biztos, hogy jól járunk vele, g7.hu: https://g7.hu/vilag/20230421/jon-a-tobbpolusu-vilag-de-nem-biztos-hogy-jol-jarunk-vele/ • Ha Kína megszállja Tajvant, működésképtelenné válik a világ vezető chipgyártója, 24.hu: https://24.hu/kulfold/2022/08/03/megszallas-kina-tajvan-vilag-vezeto-chipgyar-tsmc/ • A kínaiak miatt nőhet a disznóhús ára nálunk is, hvg.hu: https://hvg.hu/gazdasag/20190723_sertespestis_kina • Belefulladnak az indiai rúpiába az orosz exportőrök a dollár leváltása után, vg.hu: https://www.vg.hu/nemzetkozi-gazdasag/2023/09/belefulladnak-az-indiai-rupiaba-az-orosz-exportorok-a-dollar-levaltasa-utan • Nyakunkon az újabb háború? – Amerika ősellensége szemet vetett a világ leggyorsabban fejlődő országára, portfolio.hu: https://www.portfolio.hu/global/20231207/nyakunkon-az-ujabb-haboru-amerika-osellensege-szemet-vetett-a-vilag-leggyorsabban-fejlodo-orszagara-656343 • Már majdnem sikerült lezárni korunk egyik legszörnyűbb háborúját, de most úgy néz ki, borul minden, portfolio.hu: https://www.portfolio.hu/global/20231212/mar-majdnem-sikerult-lezarni-korunk-egyik-legszornyubb-haborujat-de-most-ugy-nez-ki-borul-minden-657359 • Rémtörténet a kémtörténet: Michael Kovrig, a Huawei-csata vétlen kanadai-magyar túsza, euronews.com: https://hu.euronews.com/2021/09/27/remtortenet-a-kemtortenet-michael-kovrig-a-huawei-csata-vetlen-kanadai-magyar-tusza • A holland cég, amelynél kínai kémek futhatnak össze amerikai diplomatákkal, vg.hu: https://www.vg.hu/penz-es-tokepiac/2023/02/a-holland-ceg-amelynel-kinai-kemek-futhatnak-ossze-amerikai-diplomatakkal

This week, I start by reviewing the Cameron Ortis sentencing hearing, including the intervention of Michael Kovrig, who wrote a letter in support of Ortis that brought to mind the movie 'Catch Me If You Can'. I explain why the Crown and Defense positions can sometimes be so far apart from one another. Next, I discuss the RCMP's failure to meet their year end deadline to submit a response to the recommendations of the Mass Casualty Commission. Also, I review the stalled efforts to have the wrongful conviction of Glen Assoun investigated, and what SiRT should do next. The Prime Minister took another Christmas vacation to Jamaica, and is now the subject of another complaint to the Ethics Commissioner. There have been conflicting statements from the PMO and the office of the Commissioner. I review the Conflict of Interest Code to try to provide clarification. Then, I look internationally to the case brought before the International Court of Justice by the South African government, accusing Israel of genocide, looking at the merits and the politics of the allegations. Finally, I comment on the difference between Canada and the United States when it comes to elected judges (wherein I work in a Bob Dylan quote), and how that is manifesting itself in the various cases involving Donald Trump.

In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Daniel Bordman about two separate topics. They start the podcast by talking about two Canadian Michaels. In 2018, Canada apprehended Huawei's top financial officer, Meng Wanzhou, who is also the daughter of the Chinese tech giant's founder, in response to an American warrant claiming fraud. The problem worsened when China arrested two Canadians, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, on spying allegations within days. The Western world rallied with Canada, claiming that the two Michaels' arrests were nothing more than Chinese reprisals. However, a report in Canada's 'Globe and Mail' citing two individuals claims Spavor is now suing Ottawa for multi-million-dollar compensation amid charges that he was "unwittingly" made an espionage agent. They then talk about the controversy surrounding the Hanuman Idol that will be built in Khalistani den Brampton, which has seen countless anti-India and anti-Hindu acts. On social media, the Hanuman statue provoked Hinduphobic insults. Many people grumbled about the statue's "in your face" size, while others urged for an immediate halt to all immigration into Canada. The nearly finished Hanuman statue will be revealed on Hanuman Jayanti in April of next year. Follow Daniel: Twitter: @Ranting4Canada #Brampton #Hanuman #CanadianSpies #China ------------------------------------------------------------ Listen to the podcasts on: SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/kushal-mehra-99891819 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1rVcDV3upgVurMVW1wwoBp Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-c%C4%81rv%C4%81ka-podcast/id1445348369 Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-carvaka-podcast ------------------------------------------------------------ Support The Cārvāka Podcast: Become a Member on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKPx... Become a Member on Fanmo: https://fanmo.in/the_carvaka_podcast Become a Member on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/carvaka UPI: kushalmehra@icici To buy The Carvaka Podcast Exclusive Merch please visit: http://kushalmehra.com/shop ------------------------------------------------------------ Follow Kushal: Twitter: https://twitter.com/kushal_mehra?ref_... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KushalMehraO... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecarvakap... Koo: https://www.kooapp.com/profile/kushal... Inquiries: https://kushalmehra.com/ Feedback: kushalmehra81@gmail.com Want to create live streams like this? Check out StreamYard: https://streamyard.com/pal/d/5690506426187776

30 novembre 2023 Selon plusieurs médias, le gouvernement fédéral doit annoncer aujourd'hui qu'il accorde, sans appel d'offres, un contrat de plusieurs milliards $ à l'entreprise américaine Boeing: Ottawa lui achètera 16 avions pour remplacer la flotte d'avions de surveillance de l'Aviation royale canadienne.Google s'est entendue avec Ottawa pour financer les médias canadiensÀ 3 semaines de l'entrée en vigueur de la Loi sur les nouvelles en ligne (C-18), le gouvernement fédéral a annoncé que Google s'est engagée à verser 100 millions $ par an aux médias d'information canadiens. Le montant annuel sera indexé sur l'inflation. Vous souvenez sans doute de la saga des deux Michael, deux canadiens qui sont restés détenus pendant plus de 1000 jours en Chine, de 2018 à 2021.Michael Spavor a récemment allégué que son co-détenu, Michael Kovrig, serait à l'origine de leur détention. Spavor soutient qu'il a donné à Kovrig des informations sur la Corée du Nord, et que Kovrig les a ensuite communiquées à des agences de renseignement. Ces allégations tendraient à valider la version de la Chine, qui sutenait que les deux Michael avait été emprisonnés pour cause d'espionnage.Mais dans une déclaration transmise cette semaine à plusieurs médias, Kovrig a nié ces allégations. À l'Assemblée nationale à Québec, les députés ont adopté une motion soutenue par plusieurs partis pour dénoncer de récents propos de la Commission canadienne des droits de la personne. Aux États-Unis, le ministère de la justice accuse un citoyen indien d'avoir participé à un complot dirigé par un employé du gouvernement indien en vue d'assassiner, à New York, un citoyen américain et leader sikh. La 28e Conférence des Nations unies sur les changements climatiques (Cop 28) commence aujourd'hui à Dubaï, aux Émirats arabes unis. Elle se tient jusqu'au 12 décembre.Si le sujet vous intéresse, vous trouverez sur notre site un article sur la situation et les enjeux actuels, et le lexique spécifique aux Cop, ces rencontres annuelles qui ont lieu depuis 1995. à lire àujourd'hui à: https://infobref.com/ouverture-cop28-2023-11/ La pénurie de main-d'œuvre fait perdre plus de 8 milliards $ aux PMELe prix des chalets de ski a poursuivi sa croissanceLa Banque du Canada commence à dessiner les contours d'un futur dollar numériqueLa Caisse de dépôt investit dans Solotech, une entreprise de Montréal spécialisée dans la location, vente et exploitation d'équipements audiovisuels, d'éclairage et de télécommunications pour des évènements et des centres de divertissement. --- Détails sur ces nouvelles et autres nouvelles: https://infobref.com S'abonner aux infolettres gratuites d'InfoBref: https://infobref.com/infolettres Écouter le balado d'InfoBref et voir comment s'y abonner sur les principales plateformes de balado: https://infobref.com/audio Commentaires et suggestions à l'animateur Patrick Pierra, et information sur la commandite de ce balado: editeur@infobref.com Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

A massive diplomatic uproar erupted in 2018 when Canada detained Huawei's chief financial officer Meng Wanzhou, who is also the daughter of the Chinese tech giant's founder, over an American warrant alleging fraud. The crisis intensified further as China, within days, arrested two Canadians — Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig — on spying charges. The Western world rallied behind Canada as it alleged the arrests of the two Michaels were nothing but Chinese retaliation. However, a report in Canada's ‘Globe and Mail' has now quoted two sources to claim Spavor is seeking a multi-million dollar settlement from Ottawa over allegations he was “unwittingly” made an espionage agent. In Ep 1356 of Cut The Clutter, Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta discusses key takeaways, including in light of Canadian allegations about India's role in Sikh radical Hardeep Singh Nijjar's killing.    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sanjay Kumar Verma's Video Interview- CTV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIID5QLahqY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cut The Clutter (Episode 810, Published on August 11, 2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEQDQI48gd4 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- China decries Canada's ‘hypocrisy' after Spavor blames Kovrig for their detention: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-michael-kovrig-spavor-canada-china-spying-intelligence/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Canada owes an apology to China and others deceived: Global Times editorial: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202311/1302196.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cooperating with US, but no ‘actionable info' received from Canada on Nijjar probe, says Indian envoy: https://theprint.in/diplomacy/cooperating-with-us-but-no-actionable-info-received-from-canada-on-nijjar-probe-says-indian-envoy/1862124/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig – known as the two Michaels – were both detained by Chinese authorities on December 10, 2018. That was the start of their 1,020-day imprisonment, in which Beijing accused the men of procuring and sharing Chinese state secrets.Now, two years after their release, one of the Michaels alleges that he was only detained because of information he provided to the other Michael, that was in turn passed onto the Canadian government.Globe and Mail Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife broke the story with colleague Steven Chase. Robert explains the allegations, what the Canadian government is saying now and what this means in the claims of hostage diplomacy between Canada and China.Questions? Comments? Ideas? E-mail us at thedecibel@globeandmail.com

Seg 1: The legacy of The Really Terrible Orchestra of Triangles The Really Terrible Orchestra of the Triangle, inspired by a similar concept from England's Portsmouth Sinfonia, is an orchestra where musicians of varying skill levels come together to play music without the pressure of perfection.  Guest: Dr. Robert Petters, Conductor of The Really Terrible Orchestra of Triangles Seg 2: Scott's Thoughts Has Black Friday gone out of fashion with less that impressive sales and discounts? Guest: Scott Shantz, Contributor for Mornings with Simi Seg 3: View from Victoria:  It was a happy event, with much to celebrate, including David Eby's anniversary as premier. The Vancouver Sun's Vaughn Palmer is here with his take on the day's headlines. Seg 4: How screening for synthetic drugs can prevent toxic drug overdoses A collaboration between UBC and the BC Provincial Toxicology Centre aimed to refine the identification process of emerging "designer drugs." Guest: Dr. Michael Skinnider, Study Lead and Assistant Professor of Integrated Genomics at Princeton University Seg 5: What's causing the feud between the Two Michaels? Michael Spavor is accusing his fellow Canadian detainee, Michael Kovrig, of unwittingly contributing to their detention by inadvertently passing information to Canadian authorities and allied intelligence services.  Guest: Robert Fife, Ottawa Bureau Chief for The Globe and Mail Seg 6: What are this year's Black Friday retail trends? The sales period has evolved, now spanning from October through December, a critical phase for retail success. This extended period significantly impacts the fiscal success of many retailers, though not universally beneficial. Guest: David Ian Gray, Founder and Strategist at Retail Advisory DIG360 Seg 7: What is the NDP expecting from the Fall Economic Statement? The Federal Liberals are preparing to unveil their Fall Fiscal Update, as so many Canadians continue to struggle with affordability. Scott Shantz spoke to the leader of the Federal NDP Jagmeet Singh about what his party hopes to see announced. Guest: Jagmeet Singh, Leader of the Federal New Democratic Party Seg 8: How far are people willing to go for fame? Tyler Funk, a Burnaby filmmaker, explores the allure and perils of seeking online fame in his documentary "Anything For Fame." Guest: Tyler Funk, Director of “Anything for Fame” on Paramount+ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Michael Spavor is accusing his fellow Canadian detainee, Michael Kovrig, of unwittingly contributing to their detention by inadvertently passing information to Canadian authorities and allied intelligence services.  Guest: Robert Fife, Ottawa Bureau Chief for The Globe and Mail Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For 1,019 days Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig were China's hostages, cruelly imprisoned by the communist regime as leverage for the release of Meng Wanzhou, held under house arrest in Canada on a U.S. warrant. Then, suddenly, one day, they were free, thanks to a White House-brokered deal. Mike Blanchfield and Fen Osler Hampson, authors of the new book The Two Michaels, join host Brian Lilley to discuss what went on behind the headlines. They explain why Beijing targeted the Canadians, why the ordeal dragged on as long as it did, and what led to the bargain that finally broke the nearly three-year impasse. (Recorded April 20, 2023) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Former Liberal MP Han Dong said he plans to take legal action against Global News following a report that alleges he advised the Chinese regime to keep Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig in custody. Plus, with a looming recession on the minds of Canadians and as families struggle to make ends meet, the Trudeau government is expected to table its latest budget today. And Ontario reported the largest share of residents ditching their home province for Alberta in 2022. Tune into The Daily Brief with Rachel Emmanuel and Lindsay Shepherd! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Toronto-area MP Han Dong is denying allegations that he worked against the release of ‘the two Michaels' in 2021. His denial comes in the wake of a story from Global News that alleges Dong advised a senior Chinese diplomat in Toronto to delay the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, two Canadians being held in Chinese detention. Meanwhile, calls for a public inquiry into foreign election interference grow louder. Today, CBC's chief political correspondent Rosemary Barton brings us up to speed on the latest escalation in allegations of Chinese government interference in Canadian affairs. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Trudeau Loses Dong Canadian Liberal MP Han Dong has resigned from his party after new allegations he recommended the Chinese Communists keep two Canadians imprisoned to help Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's election campaign. The now-former Liberal Party MP has been accused of advising a Chinese diplomat to delay the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, known in Canada as the “Two Michaels,” who were in Chinese custody for over two years in what was seen by many as retribution for the arrest of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/03/23/trudeau-loses-dong-mp-embroiled-in-china-interference-scandal-resigns-from-liberals/ Justin Trudeau: ‘Non-Diverse' AI Engineers May Develop ‘Evil' Algorithms During a... View Article

This week in Canadian and Nova Scotian law stories involves a range of issues from the Mass Casualty Commission to treason allegations, a DUI Charter breach analyzed by the Supreme Court, and problems with the reaction to the knife incident this week at the C.P. Allen high school in Bedford. The Mass Casualty Commission may be trolling us. Their final report is being released next Thursday, and yet they are still releasing 'new' material, and being coy about how long their final report will be. A report on what should have been a major area of analysis of the MCC, cross border gun smuggling, was released yesterday - and the report was dated July 23, 2020. Also, the Commissioners are telling us that their final report will be between 2000-3000 pages. They may know the actual number by this time, but for some reason are still giving a very wide range. The NS Department of Justice has released it's business plan, as part of the Provincial budget. There is no mention of the MCC in the list of priority areas, or of police reform. The National Citizens Inquiry, which is a privately funded initiative looking into the government handling of the pandemic, was in Truro last week. This inquiry has been flying under the radar, though has big ambitions. Hopefully, a credible final report will emerge from the process. Liberal MP Han Dong has resigned from caucus after allegations emerged that he was undermining efforts to free Canadian hostages Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Journalist Stephen Mahar wondered on twitter whether this could be considered Treason under our Criminal Code, and I examine that question. The Supreme Court of Canada rendered a decision this week on an impaired driving case. They ruled that, despite the accused being arbitrarily detained, the evidence against him should be admitted, and a conviction entered. In their Year in Review, the Supreme Court highlighted their independence from government, and included as their featured decision the Bissonette mosque shooter case where they determined the accused could not have consecutive periods of parole ineligibility. Finally, I look at this week's knife incident that shut down the C.P. Allen High School in Bedford. The Teacher's Union seems to be hinting they need more money for hallway supervision, and the Crown has (prematurely, and problematically) announced that they will be seeking an adult sentence for the 15-year old accused.

L’avocat criminaliste, Me Alexandre Bergevin, défend son client Me Emile-Haim Benamor, propriétaire de l’immeuble incendié dans le Vieux-Montréal jeudi dernier. Système de santé: Québec souhaite revoir le financement des opérations dans les hôpitaux pour réduire les listes d’attentes. Après avoir supposément conseillé un haut diplomate chinois de retarder la libération de Michael Kovrig et Michael Spavor, le député libéral Han Dong quitte le caucus libéral. Malgré des bris mécaniques prolongés de machinerie au Centre de tri de Lachine, Société VIA affirme ne pas envoyer de verre au dépotoir depuis leur arrivée à titre d’exploitant. En comité parlementaire sur les violences dans le hockey junior, Danièle Sauvageau a admis sa déception face à l’inaction de la Ligue canadienne de hockey. Voir https://www.cogecomedia.com/vie-privee/fr/ pour notre politique de vie privée

The Hamilton Today Podcast with Scott Thompson This Saturday, March 25th, Colin Linden will be performing songs off of his most recent album, bLOW. You can catch the show at The Mule Spinner – inside The Cotton Factory. Late on Wednesday afternoon, Global News Reporter Sam Cooper broke with a report that two separate, anonymous national security sources allege that in February of 2021, Liberal MP Han Dong of Don Valley North – who is at the centre of Chinese influence allegations – privately advised Han Tao, China's consul general in Toronto, that Beijing should hold off freeing Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Sam Cooper joins Scott to talk about this. Scott also covers how this story has impacts in several different realms. With the allegations from the two anonymous sources now casting greater suspicion on Canada's government – potentially beyond even the ruling party – we look at what this means for “the teflon Prime Minister” Justin Trudeau. In the middle of all the excitement stirred up around the story of Liberal MP Han Dong, U.S. President Joe Biden's visit to Canada begins today. Guests: Colin Linden, singer, guitarist, songwriter and record producer, member of Blackie and the Rodeo Kings Sam Cooper, National Investigative Journalist, Global News Elissa Freeman, PR and Pop Culture Expert Jeffrey Dvorkin, Senior Fellow at Massey College, Former Director of Journalism at the University of Toronto-Scarborough and Author of Trusting the News in a Digital Age Christian Leuprecht, Professor at both the Royal Military College of Canada and Queen's University, and a Fellow at the Macdonald Laurier Institute Henry Jacek. Professor of Political Science, McMaster University Elliot Tepper, Emeritus Professor of Political Science with Carleton University Scott Radley, Host of the Scott Radley Show and Columnist with the Hamilton Spectator Host – Scott Thompson Content Producer – William Erskine Technical/Podcast Producer - Ben Straughan News Anchor – David Woodard, Jennifer McQueen Want to keep up with what happened in Hamilton Today? Subscribe to the podcast! https://megaphone.link/CORU8835115919

Episode Notes:This episode's guest is David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic is online discourse, nationalism, the intensifying contest for global discourse power and US-China relations.Excerpts:I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator…He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect…One of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked….To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline…I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it…The fundamental message and I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile…And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimmer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo-Saxons.On US-China relations:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department…You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise…..their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?…The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well.Links:China’s online nationalists turn paranoia into clickbait | The Economist 赛雷：我接受了英国《经济学人》采访，切身体验了深深的恶意 David Rennie on Twitter @DSORennieTranscript:You may notice a couple of choppy spots. We had some Beijing-VPN issues and so had to restart the discussion three times. Bill:Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the `Sinocism podcast. It's been a bit of a break, but we are back and we will continue going forward on a fairly regular schedule today. For the fourth episode, I'm really happy to be able to chat with David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic today is online discourse, nationalism, and the intensifying contest for global discourse power.Bill:I've long been a fan of David's work and the approximate cause for inviting him to join the podcast today was an article on the January 8th issue of The Economist on online nationalism. Welcome David.David:Hello.Bill:So just to start, could you tell us how you got to where you are today?David:I've been a foreign correspondent for frighteningly long time, 24 years. And it's my second China posting. I've been out there so long. I've done two Chinas, two Washingtons, five years in Brussels. I was here in the '90s and then I went off, spent a total of nine years in Washington, DC. And then I came back here in 2018 and I was asked to launch a new column about China called Chaguan, because previously I wrote our Lexington column and our Bagehot column about Britain and our Charlemagne column about Europe. They all have strange names, but that's what we do. And so this is my fourth column for The Economist.Bill:We last met, I think in 2018 in Beijing in what seems like before times in many ways at The Opposite House, I believe.David:And the days when we had visitors, people came from the outside world, all of those things.Bill:Yes. You are quite the survivor, as they say. Although there are advantages to not worry about walking outside and getting sick all the time. Although it's better here in DC now.David:It's a very safe bubble. It's a very large bubble, but it's a bubble.Bill:So let's talk about your article, the January 8th issue. It was titled “China's online nationalist turned paranoia into click bait”. And I thought it was a very good distillation of the surge in nationalists and anti foreign content that is really flooding or was flooded the internet in China. And you interviewed one of the people who's profiting from it because it turns out that not only is it good from a sort of a sentiment perspective, but it's also good from a business perspective.Bill:And that person Sai Lei, interestingly enough, then recorded your conversation and turned it into a whole new post and video about the whole experience of talking to a foreign correspondent. Can you tell us a little about the story and why you chose to write it and just to add the links to David's article and the Sai Lei article will be in the podcast notes.David:So I heard from friends and colleagues, a couple of things in two directions. One was that in the world of private sector media, a couple of reasonably well known explainer sites, popular science video companies had been taken out of business by nationalist attacks. One was called Paperclip, the other called Elephant Union. And their crime in the eyes of online nationalists had been to talk about things which are fairly uncontroversial in Western media, that eating beef from the Amazon or eating beef that is fed soy grown in the Amazon is potentially bad for the rainforest and maybe we should eat less meat.David:But because this was in the Chinese context, that China is the biggest buyer of soybeans, this explainer video was attacked as a plot to deny the Chinese people the protein that they need to be strong, that this was a race traitor attack on the Chinese. And it was outrageous because the West eats so much more meat than China. And so that was one element of it. And I heard that these companies had been shut down. The other was that I'd been picking up that this was an extremely bad time for NGOs, particularly Chinese NGOs that get money from overseas. And we'd seen some really nasty attacks, not just on the idea that they were getting money from overseas, but that they were somehow guilty of espionage.David:And there was an NGO that did incredibly benign work. Tracking maritime and Marine trash, as it floats around the coasts of China based in Shanghai, Rendu Ocean. I'd done a column on them the year before I'd been out with their volunteers. It was a bunch of pensioners and retirees and school kids picking up styrofoam and trash off beaches, weighing it, tracking where it came from and then uploading this data to try and track the fact that China is a big generator of the plastic and other trash in the oceans. They were accused of espionage and taking foreign money to track ocean currents that would help foreign militaries, attack China, that they were guilty of grave national security crimes.David:And they were attacked in a press conference, including at the national defense ministry. And they're basically now in a world of pain. They're still just about clinging on. And so these two things, you have these NGOs under really serious attack, and you also have this attack on online explainer videos. The common theme was that the nationalist attack, they were somehow portraying the country and its national security was a weird combination of not just the security forces, but also private sector, Chinese online nationalists. And in particularly I was told there was a guy called Sai Lei. That's his non to plume who was one of the people making videos taking on these people. He went after celebrities who talked about China should be more careful about eating seafood.David:This was again, sort of race traitors. And he was using this really horrible language about these celebrities who talked about eating more sustainable seafood that they were ‘er guizi”, which is this time about the collaborationist police officers who worked with the Japanese during the World War II. He calls them Hanjian, the s-called traitors to the Chinese race. Very, very loaded language. Went after a group that’s working with Africans down in the south of China, talking about how they faced discrimination. This got them attacked. They had talked also about the role of Chinese merchants in the illegal ivory trade that got them attacked by the nationalists.David:So I thought this question of whether the government is behind this or whether this is a private sector attack on that. There's the profits to be made from this online nationalism struck me something I should write about. So I talked to some of the people whose organizations and companies had been taken down, they were very clear that they thought that was a unholy nexus of profit, clickbait and things like the communist youth league really liking the way that they can turbocharge some of these attacks-Bill:Especially on bilibili, they use that a lot.David:Especially on... Yeah. And so there's this weird sort of sense that, and I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.David:Yes. And so I reached out to the founder of a big, well known nationalist website who I happen to know. And I said, do you know this guy Sai Lei? And he said, I do, I'll get in touch with him. Sai Lei was very, very anxious about speaking to the Western media. Thought I was going to misquote him. And so eventually we did this deal that he was going to record the whole thing. And that if he thought I had misquoted him, that he was going to run the entire transcript on full on this other very well known nationalist website that had made the introduction. So I said, okay, fine. I have nothing to hide. That's all good. I wrote the column. I quoted Sai Lei. I didn't quote a tremendous amount of Sai Lei because what he said was not especially revealing.David:He was just an extremely paranoid guy. And there was a lot of whataboutism and he was saying, well, how would the American public react if they were told that what they eat damages the Amazon rainforest? And I said, well, they're told that all the time-Bill:All the time.David:It was an incredibly familiar argument. It's on the front page of America newspapers all the time. And so he wasn't willing to engage. And so, I ran this. He then put out this attack on me. It's fair. Look, I make a living handing out my opinions. I knew he was recording me, was it a bit disappointing that he cut and edited it to make me sound as bad as possible rather than running the full transcript. I mean, I interviewed a troll and that was the thing. He attacked me on the basis of my family, which then triggered a whole bunch of stuff that was pretty familiar to me, a lot of wet and journalists get a lot of attacks and it was an unpleasant experience, but I feel that the added value of being here is to talk to people, who The Economist does not agree with.David:And his fundamental problem was that I was using online as a disapproving time. But my line with people like him, or with some of the very prominent nationalists online academics, media entrepreneurs, also with the Chinese foreign ministry, when I'm called in is my job in China is to try to explain how China sees the world. To speak to people in China to let their voices be heard in The Economist. And I absolutely undertake to try and reflect their views faithfully, but I do not promise to agree with them, because The Economist does not hide the fact that we are a Western liberal newspaper. We're not anti-China, we are liberal. And so, if we see illiberall things happening in Abu Ghraib or in Guantanamo Bay or-Bill:DC.David:Being done by Donald Trump or being done by Boris Johnson or Brexit, or Viktor Orbán or in China, we will criticize them because we are what we say we are. We are a liberal newspaper. We have been since 1843. And what's interesting is that online, the reaction was... For a while, I was trending on Bilibili. And that was new. And I take that on the chin. I mean, I'm here, I'm attacking nationalists. They're going to attack back. I think what's interesting is that the online of nationalist attacks were, I hope that the ministry of state security arrest this guy, he should be thrown out of China. Why is he in China? They should be expelled. This guy has no right to be in China.David:I think that at some level, some parts of the central government machinery do still see a value to having newspapers like The Economist, reasonably well read Western media in China. And it's this conversation I've had a lot with the foreign ministry, with the State Council Information Office, which is as you know, it's the front name plate for the propaganda bureau. And I say to them, we are liberals.David:We are not anti-China any more than we're anti-American because we criticize Donald Trump, but you know where we're coming from, but I do believe that if China is concerned about how it's covered, if they throw all of us out, they're not going to get better coverage. I mean, some of the most aggressive coverage about China in the states comes from journalists who never go to China and economists who never go to China. And I think that, that argument resonates with some parts of the machine, to the people whose job is to deal with people like me.David:What I worry about is that there are other parts of the machine, whether it's the Communist Youth League or whether it's the ministry of state security or some other elements in the machine who do also see a tremendous value in delegitimizing Western media full stop, because if you're being criticized and you don't enjoy it. Tactic number one, whether you are Donald Trump talking about fake news, or Vladimir Putin talking about hostile foreign forces, or the Chinese is to delegitimize your critics.David:And I do think that that is going on in a way that in the four years that I've been here this time. And if, I think back to my time here 20 years ago, I do think the attempts to go after and intimidate and delegitimize the Western media they're getting more aggressive and they're trying new tactics, which are pretty concerning.Bill:So that's a great segue into the next question. But first, I just want to ask the nationalist website that you said ran Sai Lei's piece that was Guancha.cn?David:Yeah. And so it's probably not secret, but so I know a bit, Eric Li, Li Shimo, the co-founder Guancha.Bill:Eric actually famous for his TED Talk, went to Stanford business school, venture capitalist. And now, I guess he's affiliated with Fudan, And is quite an active funder of all sorts of online discourse it seems among other things.David:That's right. And I would point out that The Economist, we have this by invitation online debate platform and we invite people to contribute. And we did in fact, run a piece by Eric Li, the co-founder of Guancha, the nationalist website a couple of weeks before this attack, that Guancha ran. And I actually had debate with some colleagues about this, about whether as liberals, we're the suckers that allow people who attack us to write, he wrote a very cogent, but fairly familiar argument about the performance legitimacy, the communist party and how that was superior to Western liberal democracy.David:And I think that it's the price of being a liberal newspaper. If we take that seriously, then we occasionally have to give a platform to people who will then turn around and attack us. And if I'm going to live in China and not see of my family for a very long period of time, and it's a privilege to live in China, but there are costs. If you are an expert, then I'm not ready to give up on the idea of talking to people who we strongly disagree with. If I'm going to commit to living here to me the only reason to do that is so you talk to people, not just liberals who we agree with, but people who strongly disagree with us.Bill:No. And I think that's right. And I think that also ties in for many years, predating Xi Jinping there's been this long stated goal for China to increase its global discourse power as they call it. And to spread more the tell the truth, tell the real story, spread more positive energy about China globally instead of having foreign and especially Western, or I think, and this ties into some of the national stuff increasing what we hear is called the Anglo-Saxons media dominate the global discourse about China. And to be fair, China has a point. I mean, there should be more Chinese voices talking about China globally.Bill:That's not an unreasonable desire, or request from a country as big and powerful as China is. One thing that seems like a problem is on the one hand you've got, the policy makers are pushing to improve and better control discourse about China globally. At the same time, they're increasing their control over the domestic discourse inside the PRC about the rest of the world. And so in some ways, yes, there's an imbalance globally, but there's also a massive imbalance domestically, which seems to fit into what you just went through with Sai Lei and where the trends are. I don't know. I mean, how does China tell a more convincing story to the world in a way that isn't just a constant struggle to use the term they actually use, but more of an actual fact based honest discussion, or is that something that we're just not going to see anytime soon?David:I think there's a couple of elements to that. I mean, you are absolutely right that China like any country has the right to want to draw the attention of the world to stuff that China does. That's impressive. And I do think, one of my arguments when I talk to Chinese officials as to why they should keep giving out visas to people like me is, when I think back to the beginning of the COVID pandemic, I've not left China for more than two years. I've not left since the pandemic began, you had a lot of media writing that this incredibly ferocious crackdown was going to be very unpopular with the Chinese public. And that's because of the very beginning you had people, there lots of stuff on Chinese social media, little videos of people being beaten up by some [inaudible 00:16:26] in a village or tied to a tree, or their doors being welded shot.David:And it did look unbelievably thuggish. And people playing Majiang being arrested. But actually about three weeks into the pandemic, and I was traveling outside Beijing and going to villages and then coming back and doing the quarantine, you'd go into these villages in the middle of Henan or Hunan. And you'd have the earth bomb at the entrance to the village and all the old guys in the red arm bands. And the pitchforks and the school desk, or the entrance to the village with a piece of paper, because you got to have paperwork as well. And you've realized that this incredibly strict grassroots control system that they'd put in motion, the grid management, the fact that the village loud speakers were back up and running and broadcasting propaganda was actually a source of comfort.David:That it gave people a sense that they could do something to keep this frightening disease at bay. And I think to me, that's an absolute example that it's in China's interest to have Western journalists in China because it was only being in China that made me realize that this strictness was actually welcomed by a lot of Chinese people. It made them feel safe and it made them feel that they were contributing to a national course by locking themselves indoors and obeying these sometimes very strange and arbitrary rules. In addition, I think you are absolutely right, China has the right to want the foreign media to report that stuff.David:Instead of looking at China through a Western lens and saying, this is draconian, this is ferocious, this is abuse of human rights. It's absolutely appropriate for China to say no, if you're doing your job properly, you will try and understand this place on China's own terms. You will allow Chinese voices into your reporting and let them tell the world that they're actually comforted by this extremely strict zero COVID policy, which is tremendously popular with the majority of the Chinese public. That is a completely legitimate ambition. And I never failed to take the chance to tell officials that's why they should give visas to have journalists in the country, because if you're not in the country, you can't think that stuff up.David:What I think is much more problematic is that there is alongside that legitimate desire to have China understood on China's own terms, there is a very conscious strategy underway, which is talked about by some of the academics at Fudan who work for Eric Li at Guancha as a discourse war, a narrative war, or to redefine certain key terms.Bill:And the term and the term is really is like struggle. I mean, they see it as a public opinion war globally. I mean, that the language is very martial in Chinese.David:Absolutely. Yeah. And do not say that we are not a democracy. If you say that we are not a democracy, you are ignoring our tremendous success in handling COVID. We are a whole society democracy, which it's basically a performance legitimacy argument, or a collective utilitarian, the maximizing the benefits for the largest number of argument. It's not particularly new, but the aggression with which it's being pushed is new and the extraordinary resources they put into going after Western media for the language that we use of our China. And I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator who attacked me online, on Twitter and said that I was a... It was sort of like you scratch an English when you'll find a drug dealer or a pirate.David:Now there's a lot of Opium War rhetoric around if you're a British journalist in China. You're never too far from Opium War reference. And for the record, I don't approve of the war, but it was also before my time. So I actually, the guy attacked me fairly aggressively on Twitter. So I said, can you try and be professional? I'm being professional here why won't you be professional. He invited me with coffee. So we had coffee. And we talked about his work for CGTN and for Chaguan and his view of his interactions to Western media. And he said, this very revealing thing. He said, the reason we do this stuff is because it works.David:He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect.David:And so I think that this attempt to grind us down is working, although in their view, it's working. And I think that, that ties in with a broader conversation that I have a lot in Beijing with foreign ambassadors or foreign diplomats who they get called into the foreign ministry, treated politically aggressively and shouted at and humiliated. And they say, how does the Chinese side not see that this causes them problems? And I think that in this moment of, as you say, an era of struggle, this phrase that we see from speeches, from leaders, including Xi, about an era of change, not seen in 100 years.David:They really do feel that as the West, particularly America is in decline and as China is rising, that it's almost like there's a turbulence in the sky where these two the two axis are crossing. And that China has to just push through that turbulence. To use a story that I had kept secret for a long time, that I put in a column when Michael Kovrig was released. So, listeners will remember Michael Kovrig was one of the two Canadians who was held cover couple of years, basically as a hostage by the Chinese state security. And fairly early on, I had heard from some diplomats in Beijing from another Western embassy, not the UK, I should say, that the fact that Michael Kovrig in detention was being questioned, not just about his work for an NGO, the international crisis group that he was doing when he was picked up.David:But he was also being questioned about work he'd been doing for the Canadian embassy when he had diplomatic immunity. The fact that that was going on was frightening to Western diplomats in Beijing. And soon after that conversation, I was sitting there talking to this guy, reasonably senior official. And I said to him, I explained this conversation to him. And I said, I've just been having a conversation with these diplomats. And they said, the word that they used was frightened about what you are doing to Michael Kovrig. And I said, how does it help China to frighten people from that country?David:And he'd been pretty cheerful up till then. He switched to English so that he could be sure that I understood everything he wanted to say to me. And he said, this absolute glacial tone. He said, Canada needs to feel pain. So that the next time America asks an ally to help attack China, that ally will think twice. And that's it.Bill:That's it. And it probably works.David:It works. And yeah. So I think that, again, one of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked.Bill:No. I agree. And I'm not actually sure that they're making a mistake because if you look at so far, what have the cost been? As you said, I mean, behavior is shift, but I think it's definitely open for question. I mean, it's like the assumptions you still see this week, multiple columns about how China's COVID policy is inevitably going to fail. And I'm sitting here in DC, we're about to cross a million people dead in this country, and I'm thinking what's failure. It's a very interesting time.Bill:I mean, to that point about this attitude and the way that there seem to be prosecuting a very top down or top level design communication strategy, Zhang Weiwei, who's at Fudan University. And also I think Eric Li is a closer associate of his, he actually was the, discussant at a Politburo study session. One of the monthly study sessions a few months ago, where I think the theme was on improving international communication. And talking about, again, how to better tell China's story, how to increase the global discourse power.Bill:Some people saw that as, oh, they're going to be nicer because they want to have a more lovable China image. I’m very skeptical because I think that this more aggressive tone, the shorthand is “Wolf warriors. wolf-warriorism”, I think really that seems to me to be more of a fundamental tenant of Xi Jinping being thought on diplomacy, about how China communicates to the world. I mean, how do you see it and how does this get better, or does it not get better for a while?David:It's a really important question. So I think, what do they think they're up to? To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline.David:And so I think that these aggressive acts like detaining the two Michaels or their diplomatic an economic coercion of countries like Australia or Lithuania. They hear all the Pearl clutching dismay from high officials in Brussels, or in Washington DC-Bill:And the op-eds in big papers about how awful this is and-David:And the op-eds and yeah, self-defeating, and all those things. But I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it. I think they think that's what they're up to-Bill:And by getting it basically stepping a side in certain areas and letting the Chinese pursue some of their key goals, the core interests, whatever you want to call it, that we, yeah.David:That we accommodate. Yeah. The fundamental message I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo Saxons. And so they're giving us the touch, the whip. Now, do I think that, that is inevitably going to be great for them? And you ask how does this end well? I mean, I guess my reason for thinking that they may yet pay some price, not a total price, is that they are engaged in a giant experiment. The Chinese government and party are engaged in a giant experiment, that it didn't matter that much, that the Western world was permissive and open to engagement with China.David:That, That wasn't really integral to their economic rise for the last 40 years that China basically did it by itself. And that if the Western world becomes more suspicious and more hostile, that China will not pay a very substantial price because its market power and its own manufacturing, industrial strength, we'll push on through. And so there'll be a period of turbulence and then we'll realized that we have to accommodate. And I think that in many cases they will be right. There will be sectors where industries don't leave China. They in fact, double down and reinvest and we're seeing that right now, but I do worry that there are going to be real costs paid.David:I mean, when I think back to... I did a special report for The Economists in May, 2019 about us generations. And one of the parts of that was the extraordinary number of Chinese students in us colleges. And I went to the University of Iowa and I spoke to Chinese students and you know that now, the levels of nationalism and hostility on both sides and the fear in American campuses, that's a real cost. I mean, I think if you imagine China's relationship with the Western world, particularly the U.S. as a fork in the road with two forks, one total engagement, one total decoupling, then absolutely China is right. There's not going to be total decoupling because we are as dependent as we were on China's, it's just-Bill:Right. Not realistic.David:China is an enormous market and also the best place to get a lot of stuff made. But I wonder, and it's an image I've used in a column, I think. I think that the relationship is not a fork in the road with two forks. It's a tree with a million branches. And each of those branches is a decision. Does this Western university sign a partnership with that Chinese university? Does this Western company get bought by a Chinese company? Does the government approve of that? Does this Western media organization sign a partnership with a Chinese media organization?David:Does this Western country buy a 5g network or an airline or a data cloud service or autonomous vehicles from China that are products and services with very high value added where China wants to be a dominant player. And that's an entirely reasonable ambition, because China's a big high tech power now. But a lot of these very high value added services or these relationships between universities, or businesses, or governments in the absence of trust, they don't make a bunch of sense because if you don't trust the company, who's cloud is holding your data or the company who's made you the autonomous car, which is filled with microphones and sensors and knows where you were last night and what you said in your car last night, if you don't trust that company or the country that made that, none of that makes sense.David:And I think that China's willingness to show its teeth and to use economic coercion and to go to European governments and say, if you don't take a fine Chinese 5g network we're going to hurt you. If you boil that down to a bumper sticker, that's China saying to the world, or certainly to the Western world stay open to China, or China will hurt you. Trust China or China will hurt you. That's the core message for a lot of these Wolf warrior ambassadors. And that's the core message to people like me, a guy who writes a column living in Beijing. And a lot of the time China's market power will make that okay. But I think that's, if you look at that tree with a million decisions, maybe more of those than China was expecting will click from a yes to a no.David:If you're a Western university, do you now open that campus in Shanghai? Do you trust your local Chinese partner when they say that your academics are going to have freedom of speech? And what's heartbreaking about that is that the victims of that are not going to be the politic bureau it's going to be people on the ground, it's going to be researchers and students and consumers and-Bill:On both sides. I mean, that's-David:On both sides. Yeah.Bill:Yeah. That's the problem.David:Yeah.Bill:So that's uplifting. No, I mean, I-David:I've got worse.Bill:Wait until the next question. I think I really appreciate your time and it'd be respective but I just have two more questions. One is really about just being a foreign correspondent in China and the Foreign correspondents' Club of China put out its annual report, I think earlier this week. And it's depressing you read as it's been in years and every year is extremely depressing, but one of the backdrops is really the first foreign ministry press conference of the last year of 2021. It really struck me that Hua Chunying, who is... She's now I think assistant foreign minister, vice foreign minister at the time, she was the head of the information office in I think the one of the spokespeople, she made a statement about how it was kicking off the 100th anniversary year.Bill:And I'm just going to read her couple sentences to get a sense of the language. So she said, and this was on the, I think it was January 4th, 2021, "In the 1930s and 1940s when the Guangdong government sealed off Yunnan and spared, no efforts to demonize the CPC foreign journalists like Americans, Edgar Snow, Anna Louise Strong and Agnes Smedley, curious about who and what the CPC is, chose to blend in with the CPC members in Yunnan and wrote many objective reports as well as works like the famous Red star over China, giving the world, the first clip of the CPC and its endeavor in uniting and leading the Chinese people in pursuing national independence and liberation."Bill:And then went on with more stuff about how basically wanting foreign correspondents to be like Snow, Strong or Smedley. How did that go over? And I mean, is that just part of the, your welcome as long as you're telling the right story message?David:So there was a certain amount of... Yeah. I mean, we also got this from our handlers at the MFA, why couldn't it be more like Edgar Snow? And I fear the first time I had that line in the meeting, I was like, well, he was a communist, if that's the bar, then I'm probably going to meet that one. Edgar Snow went to Yan’an he spent a tremendous amount of time in Mao hours interviewing Mao. If Xi Jinping wants to let me interview him for hours, I'd be up for that. But I would point out that Edgar Snow, after interviewing Mao for hours, then handed the transcripts over to Mao and had them edited and then handed back to him. And that probably would not be-Bill:But doesn't work at The Economist.David:That wouldn't fly with my editors. No. So I think we may have an inseparable problem there. Look, isn't it the phrase that Trump people used to talk about working the refs? I mean, what government doesn't want to work the refs. So, that's part of it. And I'm a big boy, I've been at Trump rallies and had people scream at me and tell me, I'm fake news. And it was still a good thing to meet. I've interviewed Afghan warlords who had happily killed me, but at that precise moment, they wanted the Americans to drop a bomb on the mountain opposite.David:And so they were willing to have me in their encampment. So, the worker of being a journalist, you need to go and talk to people who don't necessarily agree with you or like you and that's the deal. So I'm not particularly upset by that. What is worrying and I think this is shown in the FCC annual server, which is based on asking journalists in China how their job goes at the moment is there is a sense that the Chinese machine and in particular things like the communist youth league have been very effective at whipping up low public opinion.David:So when we saw the floods in Hunan Province in the summer of 2021, where in fact, we recently just found out that central government punished a whole bunch of officials who had covered up the death doll there, journalists who went down there to report this perfectly legitimate, large news story, the communist youth league among other organizations put out notices on their social media feeds telling people they're a hostile foreign journalists trying to make China look bad, to not talk to them, if you see them, tell us where they are. And you've got these very angry crowds chasing journalists around Hunan in a fairly worry way.David:And again, if you're a foreign correspondent in another country, we are guests in China. So, the Chinese people, they don't have to love me. I hope that they will answer my questions, because I think I'm trying to report this place fairly, but I'm not demanding red carpet treatment, but there is a sense that the very powerful propaganda machine here is whipping up very deliberately something that goes beyond just be careful about talking to foreign journalists. And I think in particular, one thing that I should say is that as a middle aged English guy with gray hair, I still have an easier time of it by far because some of the nastiest attacks, including from  the nastiest online nationalist trolls.David:They're not just nationalists, but they're also sexist and chauvinist and the people who I think really deserve far more sympathy than some like me is Chinese American, or Chinese Australian, or Chinese Canadian journalists, particularly young women journalists.Bill:I know Emily Feng at NPR was just the subject of a really nasty spate of attacks online about some of her reporting.David:And it's not just Emily, there's a whole-Bill:Right. There's a whole bunch.David:There's a whole bunch of them. And they get called you know er guizi all sorts of [crosstalk 00:37:15]. And this idea and all this horrible stuff about being race traitors and again, one of the conversations I've had with Chinese officials is, if you keep this up, someone is going to get physically hurt. And I don't think that's what you want. David:And again, I fall back on the fact that I'm a Western liberal. What I say to them is if you tell me that a Chinese-British journalist is not as British as me, then you are to my mind, that's racial prejudice. And if some right wing Western white politician said to me that a Chinese immigrant wasn't fully American, or wasn't fully British, that's racism, right?Bill:That's racism. Yeah.David:And I think that is the really troubling element to this level of nationalism. China is a very big country that does some very impressive things that does some less impressive things and does some very wicked things, but we have every reason to give it credit for the things it does well. And it is not that surprising when any government tries to work the refs.David:And get the best coverage they can by intimidating us and calling us out. I've interviewed Donald Trump and he asked me, when are you going to write something nice about me? I mean, we're grownups, this is how it works, but if they are making it toxic for young women journalists to work in China, or if they are driving foreign correspondent out of China, because their families they're under such intimidation that they can't even go on holiday without their children being followed around by secret police. I think there will be a cost.Bill:But that may be a what the Chinese side sees as a benefit, because then it opens the field for them controlling how the story's told. And then you can bring in a bunch of people or pull a bunch of people out of the foreigners working for state media, hey, the new Edgar Snow, the new Agnes Smedley. I mean, that is one of the things that I think potentially is what they're trying to do, which seems self-defeating, but as we've been discussing, what we think is self-defeating the policy makers, or some of them may see as a success.David:So what I think they're confident of is that being aggressive and making us much more jumpy is a win, but throwing all of us out, I think the people at the top get that, that's not a win because the New York times and the BBC and the Washington post, they're still going to cover China, even if they can't have people in China. And a bunch of that coverage is not going to be stuff that China likes, North Korea doesn't have any resident foreign correspondent, but it doesn't get a great press.Bill:And the other group, of course, but beyond the foreign journalists is all the PRC national journalists working for the foreign correspondent as researchers and, I mean, many of them journalists in all but name because they can't legally be that I've certainly, been hearing some pretty distressing stories about how much pressure they're under. And I think they're in almost an impossible situation it seems like right now.David:Now they're amazingly brave people. They're completely integral to our coverage. And many of them, as you say, they're journalists who in any other country, we would be getting to write stuff with their own bylines. I mean, in incredibly cautious about what we have our Chinese colleagues do now, because they are under tremendous pressure. I mean, not naming news organizations, but the just the level of harassment of them and their families and is really bad. And it's the most cynical attempt to make it difficult for us to do our jobs and to divide Chinese people from the Western media.David:But fundamentally at some level, this does not end well because, and this is not me just talking up the role of the Western media, because I think we're magnificently important people, but at some level there's a big problem under way with this level of nationalism in modern China. I was in China in the '90s, you were in China in the '90s, I think. We remember it was-Bill:'80s, '90s, 2000s. Yeah.David:Yeah. You were there before me, but it was not a Jeffersonian democracy. It was a dictatorship, but this level of nationalism is much more serious now. Why does that matter? Well, because I think that for a lot of particularly young Chinese, the gap between their self perception and the outside world's perception of China has become unbearably wide. They think this country has never been so impressive and admirable. And yet I keep seeing foreign media questioning us and criticizing us. And that just enrages them. They can't conceive of any sincere principle on our part that would make us criticize China that way.David:And going back to my conversation with the online nationalist Sai Lei, when he was saying, well, how would the Americans take it if they were told that eating avocados was bad for the environment? When I said to him, but they are told that. There are lots of environmental NGOs that talk about sustainable fisheries, or the cost, the carbon footprint of crops and things in the West. The two countries are pulling apart and the pandemic has just accelerated that process. And so if you are a Chinese nationalist, not only are you angry about being criticized, but you don't believe that the West is ever critical about itself. You think that the West is only bent on criticizing China. And that gap in perceptions is just really dangerously wide.Bill:And widening, it seems like. I mean, I'm not there now, but it certainly, from everything I can see outside of China, it feels like that's what's happening too.David:Yeah. We need to know more about China.Bill:I agree.David:And report more about China. And I don't just say that because that's how I earn my living. I think it's really, really dangerous for us to think that the solution is less reporting about China.Bill:Well, and certainly, I mean, and all sorts of avenues, not just media, but all sorts of avenues, we're seeing a constriction of information getting out of China. And on the one hand China's growing in importance globally and power globally. And on the other hand, our ability to understand the place seems to be getting harder. And it goes back to, I mean, we just, I think it'll be a mistake if we just get forced into accepting the official version of what China is. That's disseminated through the officially allowed and sanctioned outlets in China. Maybe that'll help China, but I'm not sure it helps the rest of the world.David:And it's not compatible with China's ambitions to be a high tech superpower. China wants to be a country that doesn't just-Bill:That's a very fundamental contradiction.David:Yeah. China wants to sell us vaccines and wants the Western world to buy Chinese vaccines and approve Chinese vaccines. Why has the FDA not yet approved Chinese vaccines? Well, one reason is because China hasn't released the data. You can't play this secretive defensive hermit state and be a global high tech superpower. And China is a very, very big country with a lot of good universities, a lot of smart people. It has every right to compete at the highest levels in global high tech. But you can't do that, if you are not willing to earn trust by sharing the data, or by letting your companies be audited, when they list overseas. They need to decide.Bill:Or being able to handle legitimate criticism. I mean, certainly there has been illegitimate criticism and the attacks on the Western media, I mean, I know the BBC was a frequent target last year. And I think they were able to pull out some errors of the reporting and then magnify it. I mean, it is a struggle. And I think one of the things I think is on the Chinese side, they're very much geared up for this ongoing global opinion struggle. And we're not and we're never going to be, because it's just not how our systems are structured. So it's going to be an interesting few years.David:It is. And it's a tremendous privilege to still be here. And as long as I'm allowed, I'm going to keep letting Chinese people, letting their voices be heard in my column. That's what I think I'm here for.Bill:Okay. Last question. Just given your experience in living in DC and writing for The Economist from here, where do you see us, China relations going? And there is a one direct connection to what we just talked about, the foreign journalists where there theoretically has been some sort of an improvement or a deal around allowing more journalists from each side to go to other country. Although what I've heard is that the Chinese side was been very clear that some of the folks who were forced to leave or were experienced are not going to be welcome back. It's going to have to be a whole new crop of people who go in for these places, which again, seems to be, we don't want people who have priors or longer time on the ground, potentially.David:We think that each of the big American news organizations just going to get at least one visa, initially. And that Is going to be this deal done and it's high time. And you're right, as far as we can tell the people who were expelled or forced to leave are not going to come back. And that's a real tragedy because I have Chinese officials say to me, we wish that the Western media sent people who speak good Chinese and who understand China. And I was like Ian Johnson and Chris Buckley, these people lived for, their depth of knowledge and their love for China was absolutely unrivaled. So, if you're going to throw those people out, you can't complain about journalists who don't like China.Bill:Exactly.David:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department.Bill:I agree completely there. It's not a joke because it's too serious, but it's just ludicrous, hypocrisy and shortsightedness. It's disgusting.David:You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise. So there's a general observation about, if dysfunction continues at this level, then-Bill:No wonder the Chinese are so confident.David:Yeah. I mean, the Chinese line on president Biden is interesting. One of the big things about my first couple of years here when president Trump was still in office was, I'd any number of people in the states saying confidently that Donald Trump was a tremendous China hawk. I never believed. And I've interviewed Trump a few times and spoken to him about China and spoken to his China people. I never believed that Donald Trump himself was a China hawk. If you define a China hawk, as someone who has principled objections to the way that China runs itself. I think that Donald Trump couldn't care less about the Uighurs and Xinjiang. In fact, we know he approved to what they were doing.David:Couldn't care less about Hong Kong couldn't care less frankly, about Taiwan. His objection to the China relationship was that I think he thinks the American economy is the big piece of real estate, and you should pay rent to access it. And he thought China wasn't paying enough rent. So he was having a rent review. I mean, that's what the guy. It was about, they needed to pay more and then he was going to be happy. So he was not a China hawk. What was really interesting was that here in China, officials would be pretty open by the end, took them time to get their heads around Trump. For a long time they thought he was New York business guy. Then they realized that was, he wasn't actually like the other New York business guy they knew.David:And then they thought he was like a super China hawk. And then they realized that that wasn't true. By the end, they had a nail. They thought he was a very transactional guy. And the deal that they could do with him was one that they were happy to do, because it didn't really involve structural change on the Chinese side. Then their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?Bill:And not only the next election but is probably going to lose control of the House, at least in nine, what is it? Nine months or 10 months. So why worry? And that they do and I think, I mean, one of the big milestones will be the national security strategy, the national defense strategy, which in the Trump administration they came out in the December of the first year and then January for the NDS. It's February, we still haven't seen those here. I think certainly as you said, but certainly from Chinese interlock is the sense of, is that they can't come to an agreement on what it should be, the U.S. China policy.David:Yeah. And China has some legitimate concerns. I mean, for example, if you are Xi Jinping and you're trying to work out how ambitious your climate change timetables going to be. How much pain are you going to ask co-producing provinces in the Northeast to take to get out to carbon neutrality as quickly as say, the Europeans are pushing you to do. And part of the equation is America going to take some pain too, or are we going to end up being uncompetitive? Because America's not actually going to do the right thing? Well, Joe Biden can talk a good game on climate as an area for cooperation with China. But if he loses the next election and Donald Trump or someone like Donald Trump wins the White House then if you're shooting pink, why would you kind of strike a painful deal with America if you don't think it's going to last beyond 2024?Bill:Right. You'll do what makes sense for your country and not offer anything up to America because we already have a record of backing out of these deals. That's the problem.David:So that has real world consequences. The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well. There is no end game that I think makes both sides happy, because I think the Chinese vision is America sucks it up and accommodates.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:Yeah, exactly. And the American vision, I think, is that China stumbles, that China is making mistakes, that the state is getting involved in the economy too much. That Xi Jinping is centralizing power too much. And that somehow China's going to make so many mistakes that it ends up to feed defeating itself. I think that's one of the arguments you here in DC.Bill:Yes. It's wishful thinking it's not necessarily based on a rigid rigorous analysis. It seems like it's much more wishful thinking.David:So, that is a reason to be pessimistic about the medium and the long-term. The one thing that I will say based here in China is that when I write really specific color about things like what does China think of the idea of Russia invading Ukraine? And I talk to really serious scholars who spent their lives studying things like Russia policy or foreign policy or international relations, or if I talk to really senior tech people, Chinese tech companies, they do take America's power very seriously. Even though there is absolutely sincere disdain for American political dysfunction.David:I think that America's innovation power, the areas of technology, whether it's semiconductors or some forms of AI algorithms where America just really is still ahead by a long way, the really serious people, when you talk to them off the record, they still take America seriously. And on that Ukraine example, what was really interesting, the prompt for that was seeing commentators in the U.S. saying that Xi Jinping would like Putin to invade Ukraine because this was going to be a test that Biden was going to fail and America was going to look weak. And maybe that would lead Xi Jinping to then invade Taiwan.David:And when I spoke to Chinese scholars, really serious Chinese scholars of Russia, their Irish, it's like, no, no, no. Russia is an economy, the size of Guangdong and they sell us oil and gas, which is nice. But our trade to them is not enough to sacrifice our relationship with America.Bill:Thank you, David Rennie. That was a really good conversation. I think very useful, very illuminating. The links, some of the articles we talked about, the links will be in the show notes. And just a note on the schedule for the sinocism podcast. It is not, I think going to be weekly or biweekly as I thought originally, I'm still working it out, but it will be every, at least once a month. I hope it's the plan, if not, a little more frequent depending on the guests.Bill:So thanks for your patience and look forward to hearing from you. I love your feedback. The transcript will be on the website when it goes live. So please let me know what you think. And as always, you can sign up for sinocism at sinocism.com, S-I-N-O-C-I-S-M.com. Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

Characterised by trade disputes, the detention of its citizens, human rights violations, and growing diplomatic quarrels, tensions between Canada and China have reached an historic high. As both countries begin to emerge from the diplomatic conflict involving the arrest of Huawei's CFO Meng Wanzhou by Canada, at the request of the United States, and the subsequent detainment of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor by China for over a thousand days, in what the Canadian government deemed “hostage diplomacy,” many are wondering where this bilateral relationship will go next. An October 2021 Nanos poll conducted after the release of the two Michaels found that “Canadians were over three times more likely to say that relations between the Canadian government and the Chinese government should be unfriendly rather than friendly.” Despite this, trade between Canada and China continues to grow. Amidst this backdrop, we sit down with two renowned experts on the matter - Professor Paul Evans at the University of British Columbia, and Professor Gordon Holden of the China Institute at the University of Alberta - to discuss the past, present and future of Canada-China relations. How have generations of political leaders and bureaucrats shaped Canada's relationship with China? What strategies were used? And importantly, how have recent events altered Canada's approach to China, and is a new strategy necessary? Guests: Professor Paul Evans - University of British Columbia, HSBC Chair in Asian Research Professor Gordon Houlden - University of Alberta, Director Emeritus of the China Institute Producers: Connor Fraser - Senior Producer Tom Chan - Junior Producer Faria Amin - Executive Producer

“She basically bought her way out of the U.S. criminal justice system, even though she admitted to committing all the egregious conduct in the indictment,” says Kash Patel. Huawei chief financial officer Meng Wanzhou was recently given a deferred prosecution agreement and allowed to return to China. And almost immediately after, the “two Michaels” imprisoned in China—Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor—were released on bail for “medical reasons.” And lesser-known are two American siblings—blocked from leaving China since 2018—who were also recently allowed to return to the United States. In this episode of Kash's Corner, we discuss what many are describing as “hostage diplomacy.” What exactly was Huawei doing in Iran in the first place, and how is Huawei part of the Chinese Communist Party's broader ambitions to control key infrastructure nodes around the globe?

Episode Notes:Today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices 女性之音', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.4:20 on Huawei, Meng Wanzhou and the two Michaels - when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world23:20 people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese36:20 on Canada-China relations - in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will.Links: China Unbound on Amazon. Joanna Chiu’s websiteNüVoices 女性之音Transcript:Bill:Hi everyone, today's guest is Joanna Chiu, a long-time journalist covering China from both inside and outside the country, co-founder and chair of the editorial collective 'NüVoices', and the author of the new book "China Unbound." She now covers Canada-China issues for the Toronto Star. Joanna, welcome to the podcast.Joanna:Thank you Bill, thanks for having me on your new podcast, very exciting.Bill:Thanks, yeah you are the second guest, and so I'm really happy to have this opportunity to speak with you. Before we dig into your book, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up where you are and doing what you do?Joanna:Okay. I guess my bio is that my family is one of the many who left Hong Kong after the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests because my parents were worried about what would happen going forward. So growing up in Canada, I felt that China was actually part of my whole family story because what happened led to my family uprooting themselves. So I was always really interested in China and studied Chinese history and wanted to return to be a reporter to chronicle what was happening in the country, which I was so fascinated by.Joanna:So I started reporting on the ground in Hong Kong in 2012, covering all the things that happened there including the Occupy to pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. I moved to Beijing in 2014 and that's where I started covering basically everything in the whole country for European media outlets, including German, Deutsche Presse-Agentur, and AFP (Agence France-Presse). And I guess my career was a bit unique in that I also free-lanced for several stints. So I got to kind of get a sense of what many different jurisdictions and countries wanted to know about China in my time there writing for all sorts of outlets.Bill:Interesting and so I was there until 2015 and I think we overlapped for just about a year. When did you actually leave China to go back to Canada?Joanna:Yeah, I left China in late 2018. I wanted to stay for longer because even seven years on the ground I felt I barely got to scratch the surface of all the things that I could write about in China. Especially because I had such a broad remit where I was a front-line reporter for all of these major events but also could do basically any feature story I wanted. So it was just totally open and I could have stayed there for decades, but I had to go back to Canada. I got asthma from the smog and I think my Canadian lungs just couldn't handle air. I was just like really allergic to Beijing as soon as I landed and I stuck it out for four years. But back in Canada, I felt I would have to move on from my passion and interest in China, but a couple of months after I returned, Meng Wanzhou, a Huawei executive was detained in the Vancouver International Airport. And just over a week later, two Michaels were detained. So definitely I think that was the biggest China story at the time, and it continued to be very impactful around the world.Joanna:So I started covering that and it just led to basically being a reporter for the Toronto Star, focusing on China. And that's what I've been doing since then. I have also been working on my book since early 2019. So not my plan, but definitely the past decade has been very China focused, including my last few years.Bill:It's great, I've always been a fan of your work, and I will say, it's very interesting how many foreign correspondents used to live in China have left the country. Some willingly, some not willingly, but how it turns out how most of them have found jobs covering how China's impacting the world wherever they're now based.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Bill:I think that's a good segue into talking about your book because it really is true that the China story is everywhere now. And that's something, I think, you try and capture in "China Unbound." So tell us who you wrote it for, why you wrote it, and what do you hope that the readers take away from it?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). So when the whole Huawei, Meng Wanzhou saga was unfolding, I got so many questions from not just Canadian journalists, but media around the world about what was going on. I think it's surprising to us because we've been in the China-watching bubble, but more broadly, what happened was very shocking for a lot of people all over the world. They didn't know the context of Beijing's political system and its increasing ... how its authoritarianism translates also into its foreign policy and its stances towards different countries and diaspora groups all over the world. But these things were not just stories I covered, but stories that were close to my life. Because growing up, my father worked for a Chinese-Canadian radio station and people were talking already then about pressure to self-censor, pressure from the Chinese embassy on Canadian media outlets. This was happening in the 90s and people of Chinese descent around the world were trying to have discussions about this, but basically not really getting much traction or broader public attention.Joanna:It did seem ... I will ask you if this is what you felt, but it took two white men from Canada being taken hostage over this high-profile executive's arrest in Canada for a lot of people in the world to be like, "Wait, what's going on? How will Beijing's political system and authoritarianism possibly impact me and my family or my country or my business?" So I wrote this book for basically everyone, targeting the general reader because I really try to be as immediate as possible in my writing. Most of the reporting is eyewitness reporting from myself in collaboration with journalists around the world and looking at how we got to this point. Western countries and China, how we got to this point where it seems like a lot of obstacles that seem insurmountable. All of these tensions, all of these worries.Joanna:I wanted for people to start with this book and then I provided this long reading list at the end so they can continue to be engaging with these issues. Because I feel that we might not have really noticed, but a lot of the narratives around China in the mainstream public have been very very simplified. And that is a disservice to all countries. And especially to the people who end up being targets and whose lives end up being affected by some of these big conflicts going on.Bill:What you said earlier about it really taking two white men, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig to get people's attention. It's interesting because these pressures have existed, as you said talking about your father and his experience, but these pressures on the diaspora have existed for decades. They've certainly intensified, and you have multiple instances of ethnic Chinese who are jailed in China, American, Australian, where it didn't seem to kind of capture the national attention the way that the detention of the two Michaels did. And that's unfortunate, but it does feel like the conversation and awareness now has shifted and so there's a lot more awareness that these kind of pressures are existing across all sorts of communities. You can tell me I'm wrong, but the Chinese government has also shifted its approach, hasn't it? Sort of widened its net in terms of how they pressure?Joanna:Yeah, so in the past, you know the united front, a lot of that work of foreign influence in both intimidation and providing carrots and sticks. Flattering global politicians and global members of the elite among the diaspora have been going on, but the most harsh efforts of influence in the past I think were mostly directed at people of Asian descent. It was only in more recent years where the really harsh tactic, the detentions, have been applied to foreign nationals who are not of Asian descent. It seems like that is a deliberate shift in tactics, would you agree?Bill:No, I would. And I think it's interesting when you look at sort of who they've targeted, especially around the Meng Wanzhou case. Two Canadians were very quickly arrested, a third Canadian who had been convicted of dealing drugs had a re-sentence to death. There's still no word about Schellenberg's fate in the wake of the Meng Wanzhou deal. But I think that one thing that's interesting is they've yet to target Caucasian Americans. And so far, certainly what I was fearing in the Meng Wanzhou incident was that ... someone had told me that they had put together lists who they might target but they held back because part of the messaging is they're at least today not quite ready to go toe-to-toe with the U.S.. But willing to penalize countries and the citizens of the countries that are seen as effectively being U.S. allies or lackeys depending on who you're speaking with. Does that make sense?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, that makes sense. And my book, people have said that because I'm Canadian and I spotlight countries and experiences like Australia, Italy, Greece, Turkey. So so-called middle powers, that middle-power perspective, whereas many books out of the U.S. and China have it from the U.S. perspective.Bill:Right, right.Joanna:And I think that's important context for Americans to understand because in America, it seems like a lot of it is about this almost glorious competition with China where the U.S. has to win. I have been kind of mortified that people commenting on my book have said things like, "We need to read this so that we can win and not let China win." Things like that. But if they had actually read it, they would have probably seen that that's not right. I criticize the Western nations' handling and attitudes towards China as much as I criticize Beijing's actions. So I would also point out that Australian journalists who are white were affecting. Bill Birtles and Michael Smith spent days holed up in their Australian embassies in China. Basically fleeing because they got tipped off that otherwise they might get detained. Related to Australia's more aggressive critical stance towards China as of late.Bill:And also-Joanna:It does seem-Bill:Sorry, was it also related to the detention of Australian Chinese ... Australian journalist Cheng Lei who was originally Chinese then naturalized into Australian citizenship. And she's disappeared into the system in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, so Cheng Lei ... Again, while she's not a global household name like the two Michaels, she is actually detained. Her case ... we know very little about it, but it seems very clear it's related to the political situation between the two countries. And also Bloomberg journal Haze Fan ... and I think actually Haze's case might be as close as China has gotten so far to targeting Americans because even though a Chinese national, she worked for Bloomberg. She was a prominent journalist for Bloomberg. So it's interesting because writing this book, I'm trying to provide this nuance and context for the public but under so much pressure because of global contexts. Things are so tense that it could get worse at any moment and you don't know. You're hearing from your sources about a list that they were preparing of Americans they could possibly target. The stakes are so high.Joanna:Both of us, these are people we know. I don't know if you knew Kovrig, but it's a relief that he's back.Bill:Not well, but I did know a little bit.Joanna:For the more than 1,000 days he was in detention, I was writing this book and that was always on my mind. It's so immediate and it's so urgent for more people to understand what's going on rather than I think fanning the flames or making things worse or not using the opportunities there are to engage more productively with China. But we see the dialogue on China becoming so toxic right now, where it's almost as if there's two camps. The more extreme on both sides seem to get more airtime and interest. And people want those nuggets of talking points on China that really signify this is how we fight back. Rather than the people who are trying to provide a lot more context. It's not as easy as doing this or that to resolve everything or get what you want.Bill:Well with what you said earlier about sort of "we have to win," I have yet to see a clear definition of the theory of victory and what it is. The other thing I'd say, and this will lead into my next question is, we talk about in many ways how toxic the discourse has gotten in the West. It's also incredibly toxic inside China in very worrisome ways. And in many ways, sort of state-supported and state-encouraged ways. One of the questions I want to ask you is how we ... So first question is as you talk about in the book and you've talked about in other places, this whole discussion around Chinese Communist Party influence or interference in other countries ... Whether it's through the United Front or other means or vectors ... How do we differentiate what we should actually, "we" being the countries that are targeted ... How should you differentiate what actually matters that people should be concerned with versus that's the normal thing that a foreign government would do to try and improve other countries' perceptions of that country and advance their interests in those countries.Bill:And related, as this discourse does get more toxic, how do we talk about these things without tipping into racism? In the U.S. certainly, we have a really long and nasty history of anti-Asian and specifically anti-Chinese racism. And there are a lot of reasons to be very worried about going too far where we're back in a very dark place in terms of how people of Asian and Chinese descent are treated in this country. But at the same time, there are real issues and potential threats coming from some of these PRC activities. So how do we talk about that in a way that effectively deals with the problems but also makes sure that people are safe and able to enjoy the rights that they deserve and have?Joanna:Yeah and that's why I try to provide a lot of that history concisely within each chapter of the book because we need to know what happened before to know to be a lot more careful with our language and our actions now. Because definitely it just seems like history is repeating itself during the McCarthy era. Chinese-Americans' loyalties are constantly questioned, they lost their jobs. And now former President Trump has said that he thinks basically all students are possibly Chinese spies. We've seen these prosecutions of certain Chinese national scientist professors in America that were basically pretty embarrassing.Bill:Yes.Joanna:It seemed a lot of the suspicions were unfounded and it was almost like a witch-hunt which is really difficult. When things seemed politicized and politically motivated and you put a blanket suspicion on all these people, it's exactly what happened in the past.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Joanna:And it's not just America. It was in Canada, Australia, Europe. In Canada, we had internment of Japanese Canadians during World War II. And people know that this is in the background. And even before things got more tense when a lot of the approach among Western countries towards China was that the goal was to expand trade ties and economic ties as much as possible, there was still a lot of racism. Walking down the street, I got called slurs like the c-word in downtown Vancouver multiple times.Bill:Recently?Joanna:Throughout my life living in Canada. In Vancouver, particularly, there was a long-standing stereotype of the crazy rich Asian that was ruining the city with our Maseratis and condo buying.Bill:Wasn't there a reality show that was based on rich Chinese in Vancouver, I think?Joanna:Yeah, there was that and there's a lot of scapegoating against East Asians for lots of problems with COVID-19 and all this with the two Michaels in Huawei. This just really spiked particularly in countries like Canada, U.S., Australia with the large Chinese diaspora in many places. People who weren't even Chinese, like an indigenous woman in Canada, she was punched in the face. Things like that. And its not like we can throw up our hands and be like, "People are just going to be racist, this is just going to happen." I think a lot of people in positions of influence and politicians need to take responsibility for what they've done to stoke this behavior and not condone it. So talking to certain politicians in Canada in the conservative party, they tell me that there's been a shift in strategy to talk about China as the Chinese Communist Party, the communist regime, to deliberately stir up a red scare. In the U.S. definitely, the FBI in an announcement about one of its investigations into a Chinese American scientist said the words "Chinese Communist regime" or "Chinese Communist government" five times.Bill:That was the announcement about the MIT professor, was it Chen Gang, I think?Joanna:Yeah, I think so.Bill:The prosecutor or the FBI folks up in Boston, I believe.Joanna:Right. Yeah, that was the one. And it's just not necessary. You don't need to ... My argument is that the facts about what Beijing is doing are urgent and sobering enough. You don't really need to embellish it with this language of trying to get people scared of this Communist entity. But perhaps it's more to do with domestic politics in each place. Someone explained it to me in the U.S. where pretty much everyone is critical of China. You don't get more attention by just being moderately critical, you have to be really more extreme. It's as if it's like a competition to be as hawkish as possible to get that acclaim and public support.Bill:And as you said, it's unnecessary because as you just said, the facts can speak for themselves in many areas. And it again, it goes back to how do we have rational discussion about what the problems and challenges are without tipping over into something that's really nasty and scary. It's something I struggle with, obviously in my newsletter, I have ... It's funny when you write about China, I have people who think I'm a CCP apologist and people who think I'm way too hawkish. You sort of can't win, it's such a fraught topic that it is something I struggle with. Because you certainly don't want to be in a position where you're stirring things up, but at the same time you can't just throw up your hands and say, "Well we're not going to deal with this because it's too dangerous." I mean, it's too dangerous the other way too, right? But it's really difficult, and the question I have is, do you think the powers in Beijing understand this? Is this something they try to use or leverage?Joanna:Oh yeah, I think so. I think it plays right into what Beijing wants. Because the myth it has been promoting for years is that China is the center of Chinese civilization even if your family has been away from China for generations, you're still Chinese. And since you're still Chinese, your de-facto leader is still the CCP. It's a legitimate power for all Chinese people. Because people like me and my family aren't fully accepted as Canadians or as Australians or as Americans, it's always like a hyphen, like Chinese-Canadian, Chinese-American. That just plays into what Beijing wants. When people of Chinese descent are taken as political prisoners or get calls from Chinese police saying, "Stop supporting Hong Kong on social media or stop doing this," these people get less attention. They're not taken seriously when they try to report what's happening because unfortunately a lot of people in the West have accepted the CCP's myth that we're still essentially Chinese. It's in the law, if there's dual-nationality, they don't accept the second nationality.Joanna:But even more than that, I still worry that ... it's happened to people like me. I actually gave up my Hong Kong citizenship, I'm only Canadian. But just because of my Chinese blood, I'm at greater risk of whatever repercussions. I've definitely been singled out when I was a foreign correspondent in Beijing for writing too much about human rights. And they did not say the same things about other people in my office. So by not listening to people in the diaspora and still treating them as they're still outsiders, we're with this connection to China whether we agree or not, that's really playing into it. And also when there's this racism, Chinese media, Chinese embassies, they've been really up front about condemning this and using it as a way to shore up loyalty among overseas Chinese, especially people who are more recent immigrants to get that support. There's so many of these China Friendship associations around the world. It's tough to understand their impact because it's all basically legal. They are these groups that openly support Beijing's policies all around the world. And they have, in my reporting, taken part in basically trying to make friends with politicians around the world and using those interviews, events, photographs to turn into propaganda to say, "We got support from this politician." There were groups that have offered money for people to vote for certain candidates in other countries' elections.Joanna:So it's complicated because when these groups are alienated, when they still feel that ... On a pragmatic level, it makes better sense for them to have good relations with Beijing. These groups are going to increase and proliferate and it's hard to understand what they're doing because you don't want to villainize it. In a way it's very natural for people, say, with business ties in China to try to hob-nob with Chinese embassies and try to support them. When I do report on some of these activities like the potential vote buying and interfering in elections, people use it as an excuse to say, "Oh, everyone's like that. All recent immigrants are working for the CCP." And that just puts a lot of reporters and researchers in these really tricky situations where you want to report on what's going on, but because discourse just fails to be nuanced enough, people just kind of take it as a reason to be more hostile and to not really open up their minds that there's a diversity of opinions among Chinese people and the Chinese diaspora.Bill:And it's also hard I think because so much of it happens in Mandarin or other Chinese dialects, so most people who don't speak the language have no idea what's going on.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative). But it's been such a rich field of potential reporting for me, going back to Canada. It's really, really resitting. I have been able to read all of these reports. I've been able to translate these posts into English for audiences who found it really interesting. But I would argue that it's not actually that hard because there are so many Chinese speakers all over the world. It's not like it's a niche population, like a small population. In these stories where Steve Bannon and Miles Kwok's like cultish group was protesting outside a Canadian journalist's house accusing him of being a Chinese spy, when he was actually critical of Beijing. There were death threats.Bill:They did that to a bunch of people in America too. They had a whole program of targeting people.Joanna:Yeah, New Jersey.Bill:Yeah.Joanna:Yeah, so in that case. In Texas, with Pastor Bob Fu, he was one of the targets. And the FBI came in, the bomb squad, they put him and his family in a safe house. But in Canada, police monitored it, checked in once in a while. I actually sent them videos, like this looks like a death threat. And I actually ... Me and my colleagues, we translated some of this information and we posted it on YouTube to explain what was going on. But then it took three months later, this going on in Canada ... Two of these protestors just savagely beat one of the target's friends. And the police were responding to questions of why didn't you step in earlier, there were death threats? They admitted that they were slow with the investigation because they didn't have Chinese language resources. And that doesn't make sense really, in Vancouver, when there are so many people of Chinese descent. It's not hard to find someone to look at something and translate it to understand it.Joanna:In the conclusion of my book, one of the points I make is that information in Chinese language is treated like a secret code that can't be cracked. Instead, people like Newt Gingrich and other kind of just make things up. In his book, Newt Gingrich ... I don't quite remember but he just provided nonsensical translations of Chinese words and then extrapolated a whole bunch of theories about China based on that. Which is insulting to all of the people, not just of Chinese descent, but people like you who have taken the time to learn Mandarin and to understand China.Bill:There's a lot of that here in the U.S., I don't know how much it exists in other countries. But certainly the taking stuff out of context or just crappy language skills. And then, like you said, extrapolating something much bigger and darker and nefarious than in many cases it actually is, for sure.Joanna:Yeah. In the U.S. people tell me that they do have Chinese speakers, but lower down in the chain who provide reports and information. But going up the chain, the politicians and the pundits, they pick and choose information to support what they believe already. So these researchers feel like they're not even being heard because politicians are just grabbing what they want anyways. In many cases, people of Chinese descent are worried about even going to China or talking about their family in China because they're not going to get promoted to more influential positions. They're not going to get security clearance because the assumption is that if you have any sort of China ties that you might be compromised. And that's a very prejudicious trend in D.C.Bill:When I moved back to D.C. after ten years, I had no interest in working for the government, but I had a funny conversation with someone who does have security clearance. He says, "Don't even bother to apply, you'll never get a security clearance because you lived in China for too long."Joanna:That's crazy.Bill:That's fine, but there are reasons for governments to be concerned with ties to other foreign governments, but certainly for folks of Chinese descent it's much more pernicious. And it does seem like in many places the assumption is that you're potentially at risk of compromise. One of the problems is how people's families are being leveraged back in China. You see it in the way the persecutions of the Uyghurs and Tibetans. But you see it also in Han Chinese, people who are doing things that are considered controversial or anti-China outside of China. It's a very common tactic, right, to harass, hassle, otherwise make difficult for family members back in China, right?Joanna:Yeah, and that is a major ... There's no solution to that. I tried to spotlight a lot of these voices in the book. I spoke with people like Vicky Xu, the campaign against her has just been ridiculous. People made fake porn of her, thousands of accounts were basically attacking her, doxxing her.Bill:I feel like that story didn't get as much attention as maybe it should have. She was just so brutally targeted by very obviously state-backed campaigns.Joanna:Yeah. Very personal and they started with her family. She's been open about that, how her family and parents have been pressured. But she didn't stop her work, so they went further. They sent thousands of accounts and they made fake pornography about her so that when people search in Chinese, that's what comes up. And trying to completely smear her character. But that story did not get that much attention.Bill:This is because of her work at the ASPI down in Australia, right? Specifically around XinjiangJoanna:Xinjiang, yeah. I think she's one of the main researchers in Australia that focused on Xinjiang. The bigger issues looking at supply chains, looking at forced labor, and where internment camps are. Recently she found a trove of police documents about the repression. And because of her fluent Chinese and her networks, she was able to find this and provide this information. So people like her, I think, Beijing wants the most to silence and has the means and leverage to try to do so. I think she's unique in that she continues to do this work. We're not sure for how long because you have to wonder how long someone can take this.Bill:Right.Joanna:More people that I know of are either operating anonymously, they're really providing subtle advising roles to governments in a very very anonymous manner. Because they're worried about their families. Or they're writing under pseudonyms and they don't get a lot of attention because no one knows who they are. They're worried about ... not even access. I think a lot of researchers worry about being able to go back to China. At different levels, people who are worried about the safety of themselves and their family members.Bill:So just given the trajectory of China under Xi Jinping, is there any reason to think this is going to get better? Or are we sort of more close to the beginning of where this trajectory goes?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think we're kind of at a pivotal point. A lot of it isn't waiting for what Beijing does, but there's a responsibly on Western countries to at least be smarter about China and to have proper expertise in places of governments to try to even have some well thought out policy on these issues. In the U.S. Cabinet, very little China experience. And like we talked about, the people with experience ... They have trouble having influence. And in Canada, the mood after the Michaels returned and the Meng case was resolved is that they really want to go back to business as usual. To not have any kind of plan in place on how to prevent Canadian hostages from being taken in the future. The Prime Ministers office really steering this even though other parts of government was like, "We need some sort of plan, we need some sort of update to foreign policy in general." There's very little political will. I think the amount of criticism in different countries' media doesn't reflect the lack of political will of governments to even put the basic structures in place to understand China better. To be able to translate basic things from Chinese into English to be aware of.Bill:And in Canada, why do you thing that is? Especially given the diversity of Canada and the number of people of Chinese descent in the country. But also what just happened over the last close to three years. Why wouldn't the government have had a bit more of a shift in views of how the relationship in China should go?Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative) I think it's related partly to what we were talking about before where politicians are worried about stoking racism, losing support from Canadians of Chinese descent. Partly an election issue, and I think traditionally in Canada, the main government advisors on China have been people in the business world who do have a vested interest in making sure that tensions are as low as possible to facilitate smoother business interactions. But that's also not even the case where if you ... I think the idea in the West has been reformed through trade. Through interactions, economically, China will naturally liberalize, become more democratic. But in recent years, we've seen political tensions move over to economic coercion, economic retaliation. Not just from China but back and forth, with America, Australia, other countries have also did tit-for-tat trade tariffs. Different ways where the political situation can impact the economic relationships. So it's not even necessarily the case that just by focusing on business, everything will be all good. I think a lot of politicians are trying to put their head in the sands about that and not trying to understand the really complex situation unfolding. And Canadians on the whole, surveys show, pretty frustrated about the situation in action and just passiveness that they see from Ottawa.Bill:I guess the Huawei decision will be interesting, whether or not Huawei is allowed into the Canadian 5G network construction. Certainly here in D.C., there's all the factors you talked about and there's a lot of opportunity for lobbyists from various industries and companies to sort of shift Biden administration and Capitol thinking to policies that are more likely to make money dealing with China. And that certainly has an impact on the policies. So just shifting gears quickly because we're almost out of time and this has been a really great conversation. One of the things we were talking about was lifting up and getting more diversity of voices. Can you tell the listeners about NüVoices and what you helped create there? I found that to be a really wonderful and useful project that's been up for a couple years now? Or has it been three years? Time just sort of blended away with the pandemic, right?Joanna:So actually we were founded in 2017.Bill:Oh my gosh, okay.Joanna:In Beijing, so it's almost under five years. It's been like a daily kind of passion project in the community for me. We kind of wanted to create a more open and accepting China space, both in person with events and chapters around the world and also virtually. And it started in reaction with panels and book deals. The people who get platformed on China are often white male experts. No offense to yourself.Bill:People like me. No, no, I get it. I get it.Joanna:You're one of our longtime supporters and our patrons and we've spoken about how this helps to create a better world for your kids, for your daughters. Because we want to remove any excuses that people have for not even having one woman on their panel. Five years ago, people just kept saying to us and our co-founders, "We tried to find a female expert, but we couldn't find one." Or "We couldn't find a woman on this topic." Which is ridiculous because looking around, actually people we know, I see more women than men entering these fields. Definitely being a journalist in China, there's more women than men. And women who can speak Chinese and doing great work. So we created this open-source directory. Now it has more than 600 people all around the world who are women or non-binary on all sorts of topics. And speaking all sorts of languages in all sorts of time zones. I think just that project alone helped to remove those excuses. Any time someone makes an excuse that they couldn't find a woman, someone just has to send that person the link to this directory. No more excuses.Joanna:And on top of that we have a twice monthly podcast which I co-host sometimes and events all around the world. And basically social groups and networks and it's a platform so that people can benefit from this supportive atmosphere. We really try and celebrate diverse voices on China, experts on China. I find that women tend to ... because they're facing so much discrimination, women experts often have to fight harder to provide unique insights and reporting. So the kind of good quality you get just reaching out to any female expert in China, its a pretty good bet on fresh and interesting perspectives. And definitely I found that the case with my book. Because you know I tried to practice what I preach and most of my sources are coming from diverse backgrounds, women and minorities ... I shouldn't even use the word "minorities", people who aren't white basically.Bill:Mm-hmm (affirmative) right.Joanna:In each country, and I think that provides a different layer than people who enjoy positions of more power in those countries, who might not see some of the more uglier sides or the more complicated sides because that's not their experience. They're not getting the five star treatment when they go to China that a lot people in power do.Bill:It's definitely one of the things I enjoy about your book, it does have these different perspectives that are so important as we are all sort of trying to figure out what's going on and start thinking about what we can do. Specifically, NüVoices, I was looking at the directory last week. I think it's like 620 entries or something, I'm certainly planning to mine it for guests for the podcast because it's a really tremendous resource. And I will put a link to it in the show notes when we publish the podcast. Well thank you so much, is there anything else you'd like to add or say to the audience? Other than buy your book, "China Unbound", it's a great book. Please go ahead and go buy it and read it. It's a great book.Joanna:Just asking yourself, being based in the U.S., what are the best avenues for a more productive conversations on China? Instead of going to people who are more simplistic, what are some more resources you'd recommend? Including, of course your newsletter and that community. But who's doing the work to make up more well-informed approaches?Bill:That's a great question, and I'm not actually sure I have a good answer. I'm struggling with that and part of it is maybe that I'm based in D.C. where it is quite ... It's difficult to be in D.C. and to be not hawkish about China if you want to get ahead in certain parts of the government here. And so, I'm not actually sure. I know that there's China Twitter ... I mean Twitter in general is just kind of a cesspool and China Twitter is not a productive or constructive place for discourse about anything. I don't know, I wish I had a better answer for you, I need to think about it more.Joanna:Mm-hmm (affirmative)Bill:Do you have any guesses or any suggestions?Joanna:I was expecting a more simplified reaction to my book, but actually all the events I've been doing so far are conversations with academics and fellow reporters have been really nuanced. And it seems like there's a hunger for people who want to admit there are no simple solutions and to talk about that. But it doesn't' seem like here's a particular space or a think tank that has that approach. It seems-Bill:The think tanks probably are the place. I mean there are other ... The folks at SupChina are trying to do that. I don't know if you've talked to them. Kaiser's got his podcast and they do their conference. I think their conference ... We're recording on the 1st of November so they're I think next week. But in general, I don't know, it's also ... Like anything, it's hard to have a more textured or kind of deeper discussion in these 30 minute chunks or when you're sitting on a panel. It's just putting in the time and having ... Like you're doing, talking to me and you're talking to lots of people for your book. And this is a topic that has probably come up in most of your conversations and it's just something we're going to have to keep talking about. I know over the next few months there are at least two more books that are coming out about China's influence in the world. And so it'll be interesting to see where those goes in terms of how they impact or move the discourse and how those get played. And again, I think it's like I said, me struggling with how do you address these issues that are very real and influence interference without going overboard and over-exaggerating and destroying innocent people's lives. Which I think has already happened and continues to be a big risk.Joanna:I do think simple answers that people need to pay better attention and not just to get a shallow understanding, but to really understand the nitty-gritty and try to untangle complexities. And support the people who are trying to do this work. A lot of their names are in my book. If you don't want to buy it, flip to the back of the notes and you'll get their names and look up those articles. People like Yangyang Cheng, Helen Gao. People who are straddling both worlds, Chinese and Western. Because of those real lived experiences, their perspectives are just naturally very nuanced and insightful, I think. So people are doing this work, its just they're not the ones on CNN and getting book deals because of structures power. So support NüVoices.Bill:Absolutely. Like you said, I'm a supporter of NüVoices, I'm very happy to put a link to that as well. Support you through Patreon, right? We should move you over to Substack, but that's a different discussion. That's my bias. Well look, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to speak with you and I hope that many of you listeners will go out and buy the book. It's really a worthwhile read and Joanna really has great reporting, great perspectives. And this book is really important contribution to the conversation we all need to be having about China and the future and China's role in the world. So thank you and hope to talk to you again soon.Joanna:Thank you so much for all of your work, really platforming those more quality, well-informed sources on China. You've run the newsletter for a long time, so I think that makes a big difference as well because you use your expertise to point people to credible, good sources. So I'll also subscribe to your newsletter.Bill:Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

On this week's show: Kirsten Hillman, Canada's ambassador to the U.S., expands on the efforts to free Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Environment Minister Jonathan Wilkinson looks ahead to COP26. AFN National Chief RoseAnne Archibald reflects on the first National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Plus — former top bureaucrat Michael Wernick warns of a “virus of intolerance” in politics and longtime MP Scott Simms bids farewell to the Hill.

The At Issue panel discusses the government's post-election priorities and how Canada should approach China now that Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor are back home. And in this extended edition, the panellists also talk about Annamie Paul's resignation message.

Jia Wang, interim director, China Institute, University of Alberta

China Unbound: A New World Disorder, journalist Joanna Chiu takes her experience of over a decade examining China's expansion and puts pen to paper to give the reader a view of it's economic power, it's sway over foreign countries, and how China's growth has been handled by Western Nations. Peter and Joanna go under the hood of leader Xi Jinping's policies and understand how China's actions in Honk Kong should be closely observed by all nations as it could be closer to home in the future, how China has retaliated to moves against it's citizens on foreign soil and they discuss the policy of Wolf Warrior diplomacy. You can find China Unbound: A New World Disorder in all good shops and online, and find out further information about Joanna's work at her website - www.joannachiu.com Further thoughts, work and projects from Peter can be found via - www.peterfrankopan.com * NOTE - this episode was recorded and produced before the release of Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou and Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. Produced, edited and mixed by @producerneil

This week on The Sunday Magazine with host Piya Chattopadhyay: • Toronto Star journalist Joanna Chiu talks about the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and what it means for Canada-China relations • Guy Vanderhaege on his latest historical fiction novel August into Winter • Alberta mayors Naheed Nenshi and Tara Veer dissect provincial politics and the pandemic crisis • An essay from Indigenous writer Clayton Thomas-Müller in the run-up to Canada's first National Day for Truth and Reconciliation • Former MPs Megan Leslie, Jane Philpott and Lisa Raitt reflect on life after politics and women in Parliament Discover more at https://www.cbc.ca/sunday

On this week's show: two former diplomats and an expert on Canada-China relations discuss the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor from prison in China. Plus, CBC reporters on how the major party leaders are faring post-election; strategists dissect the campaigns and what lies ahead for Parliament; and, in a podcast extra, a former provincial PC cabinet member discusses Alberta's political and health crises.

Sources say Meng Wanzhou is entering into discussions with the US Department of Justice which could be good news for detained Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. The Teamsters are moving forward with an effort to organize an Amazon warehouse in Alberta. And we give you the latest on the Mu variant. The Peak Daily is produced by 306 Media Productions. Hosted by Brett Chang and Jay Rosenthal.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

China has been holding Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig captive for two years as it plays “hostage diplomacy.” Ottawa seems paralyzed even as pressure mounts for difficult decisions about allowing Chinese telecom into Canada's 5G networks and calling out credible charges of a Chinese-perpetrated “genocide” against Uyghur Muslims. Josh Rogin, Washington Post columnist and author of Chaos Under Heaven: Trump, Xi, and the Battle for the 21st Century, joins host Anthony Furey to explain how China benefits from the turmoil. (Recorded May 14, 2021). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Justin Trudeau's gun restrictions have had massive implications for Canadian gun owners and firearms businesses, but to the gun control lobby, they are a “dismal” effort that doesn't go far enough. True North's Andrew Lawton warns that the Liberals are going to side with gun alarmists over gun owners every time. Also, the upcoming trials of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor prove Canada's policy of appeasing China has accomplished nothing. Plus filmmakers Ann McElhinney and Phelim McAleer join to talk about their upcoming feature film My Son Hunter, telling the story of Hunter Biden and the mainstream media who refused to do their jobs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke today on continuing to try and work with China and their allies to try and bring the Canadians back. However, is Canada being too soft on this issue? Richard Kurland joins Lynda to discuss. Guest: Richard Kurland, Immigration Lawyer and Policy Analyst

Chapter 1: China charges Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor with espionage Just a few weeks after Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou lost a critical decision in her extradition case in a Vancouver courtroom, two Canadians in Chinese custody have been charged with espionage.  Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig have been detained in China since December of 2018, and the arrests are widely believed to have been an act of retaliation for Canadian authorities detaining Wanzhou on behalf of American authorities.  Globe and Mail correspondent in Beijing Nathan VanderKlippe joins us for more.  GUEST: Nathan VanderKlippe, Globe and Mail Beijing correspondent.  Chapter 2: Update on the CPC debate with David Akin Conservative leadership candidates faced off yesterday in English. GUEST: David Akin, Global News chief political correspondent. Chapter 3: Construction and technology firms partner to launch Citizen Care Pod  A fantastic Canadian partnership that brought together technology giants and construction partners to create COVID-19 testing pods.  We're joined by the co-founder of Citizen Care Pods, Carl Demarco.  GUEST: Carl Demarco, Citizen Care Pods co-founder.  Chapter 4: Stanley Park access lawsuit Cars are returning to Stanley Park on Monday, but the Board voted last night to designate one of the existing lanes for bicycles.  Yesterday, the Stanley Park Stakeholders told us they were considering legal action against the board because taking cars out of the park will impact their business. We're joined by former BC Attorney General Wally Oppal to talk about his involvement.  GUEST:  Wally Oppal, former AG.  Chapter 5: Reallocating police funding in Victoria The city of Victoria is set to vote on whether to reallocate funding from existing programs like policing to address mental health and addiction issues in the community.   A motion was just approved in committee and council will vote next week on whether to consider funding alternative programs instead.  Councillor Marianne Alto supported this through the committee of the whole, and she joins us now to talk about what this might look like.  GUEST: Marianne Alto, Victoria City Councillor. 

That's right. They've been in custody for 500 days. What's their status?  We chat with Joanna Chiu, Vancouver-based journalist for the Toronto Star, and friend of Michael Kovrig

On this edition of Counterpoint, Alex is joined by: John Mraz  Former liberal war room director with several dozen elections worth of experience and Bill Hutchison Former broadcaster...longtime journalist...professor at Seneca Topics include: Does Toronto have anything unique that it can offer Kawhi Leonard? CSIS has identified foreign actors attempting to directly influence the upcoming federal election campaign, a Toronto Star and BuzzFeed News investigation has learned.  CBC has been doing pre-election polling on a wide array of voter issues... and immigration is the latest poll which reveals Canadians are divided on immigration, with clear limits on the kind of migration they find acceptable. China has escalated its abuse against the two Canadians they have kidnapped and jailed. They've confiscated the glasses of Michael Kovrig. Yet another abuse in retaliation over Huawei exec Mung Wazou. China is openly mocking Justin Trudeau over his comments that he has lots of global support. He can't say for sure President Trump talked to China.. Then, we see a tweet from Liberal MP of small business and export. Mary Ng writes. “When in Beijing, you dropped by @COWSICECREAM – a true Cdn #smallbiz success story from #PrinceEdwardIsland!" Governor General Julie Payette won't be moving into Rideau Hall, the home and workplace of every viceregal going back to Confederation, because it's not private enough. Over the weekend in Portland there was yet another bloody confrontation between neo-nazi groups and antifa. This has been a pretty regular feature in the city in the last couple of years. But this weekend a Conservative reporter, Andy Ngo, whose beat is to cover these protests, was attacked and left with a brain bleed, ripped ear and burns from milkshakes thrown at him which were actually quick dry cement. 

Alex is joined by Christian Leuprecht, Professor of Political Science at the Royal Military College of Canada, for ON Point. The conversation is about Michael Kovrig, one of the Canadians who is being detained in China and being denied access to his lawyers. Canada is trying to figure out a plan of action. In Ottawa there was a high level call with top Canadian officials from national security, but where does that leave Kovrig? 

Alex is joined by Chris Alexander, Canadian politican and former diplomat, to talk about a Canadian couple, who after establishing their home and business in China more than 30 years ago, were detained by Chinese officials for no apparent reason. The couple compares their experience to former Canadian diplomat, Michael Kovrig, who was detained by the Chinese government earlier this month.