Podcasts about justin there

In the first episode of Season 1, co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez speak with LitFriends Angela Flournoy & Justin Torres about their enduring friendship, writing in a precarious world, and chosen family. Links https://sites.libsyn.com/494238 www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://linktr.ee/litfriendspodcast https://www.instagram.com/litfriendspodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553436475678 https://justin-torres.com/ https://www.angelaflournoy.com/ https://www.asalisolomon.com/ Transcript Annie & Lito (00:01) Welcome to LitFriends! Hey LitFriends! Annie: Welcome to the show. Lito: Today we're speaking with the great writers and LitFriends, Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy. Annie: About chosen family, the dreaded second novel, and failure and success. Lito: So grab your bestie and— 
 Both: Get ready to get lit! Lito: That's so cute. Annie: It's cute. It's cute. We're cute! Lito: Cute, cute… So you had a question? Annie (00:29) I do. I have a question for you, Lito. Are you a cat or an ox? Lito: I mean, I would hope that the answer is so obvious that it almost bears not asking the question. I'm a cat. Annie: Okay, so Asali Solomon at The Claw asked us all, are you an ox or a cat? Lito: That's a great question. Annie: And as a writer... You know, the oxen are the people who work every day in the field, clock in, clock out, pay themselves a quarter an hour. I'm literally talking about me. The cats are people who are playful, exploratory, when the mood strikes them… Lito: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Annie Lito (01:26) So are you an ox or a cat? Lito: I'm a cat. I think anyone who's ever met me would say I'm a cat. Annie: How does that show up in your writing? Lito: Well, I mean, play is so important to me—she'll be on the  podcast in a couple of episodes, but when I first...was studying with Lucy, that was one of the first things that she spoke about in our class, and it kind of blew up my whole world. I had been writing for a long time already, but I hadn't thought of it as play, or there was some permission I needed or something. So the idea of play is really central to what I do and love. You wouldn't necessarily know that from the novel that I'm writing, which is sort of a dark book. Um, but it did start out with a lot of play and, I'm also, as you could probably just hear, my cat is coming into the room. Annie: Your cat is like, yes, Lito is us. RiffRaff is like, "Lito is cat." Lito: My cat Riff Raff, yes. Smarty pants. Um, he needed to join in on this conversation. Anyways, I'm a cat. I, I'm fickle when it comes to my work. Um. I don't want to work on my novel all the time, which is great because life has found so many ways to prevent it from happening. So in the new year, in 2024, it will be 7 years since I've started writing this book, and it's still, it's going to take a few more months at least. And what about you? Annie:  (03:09) I'm four oxen pulling a cart carrying all of my ancestors. I am very much the immigrant who says, get up, go do the work, come back, go do the work. And believe it or not, for me, there is a lot of joy in that. It's a... It allows, you know, it's Csikszentmihalyi's Flow, actually. So it doesn't feel like drudgery, usually. It does feel like joy. And I'm actually curious for all you LitFriends out there, if you're an ox or a cat. Lito: Yes, that's such a great idea. Please email us at litfriendspodcast@gmail.com, and tell us if you're a cat or an oxen or share on all your socials. Annie: Yeah, maybe we should poll them. That would be fun. Lito: That's a good idea. #LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: The reason I'm asking is because, of course, both Justin and Angela, who we speak with today in this episode, talk about what it's like to go for 10 years between books. "A banger a decade," is what Angela says. Lito: It's so funny. Annie: And you, you know, part of that, they have this very rich conversation about how, when you put everything into the first book, it takes a lot to get to the second book. But I think also there's a lot of play, right? And there's a lot of understanding that writing appears in different forms. And it might be the second novel, but it might be something else. Lito: For sure. I really like how they talk about— that the practice of writing is actually a practice of reading. And I think that any serious writer spends most of their time reading. And not just reading books, but texts of all kinds, in the world, at museums, as Justin points out, art, television, even the trashiest TV show has so much to offer. Annie: (05:12) And there's such a generosity to the way they think of themselves as artists, and also generosity in how they show up for one another as friends, and acknowledging when they fail one another as we as we see in this episode. And I remember my introduction to Justin when I was a grad student at Syracuse. I read We the Animals and fell in love with it, asked him to come do a reading at Syracuse, which was wonderful. And my wife who, at that time was my Bey-ancé, she was turning 30. We had no money. I couldn't buy her anything. Not in grad school. So I asked Justin if he would autograph his story, "Reverting to a Wild State," which is about a breakup in reverse, for Sara. Lito: Oh, I love that story. Annie: And he did, and he thought it was so beautiful, and I was like, "let me send it to you." He's like, "no, I've got it." He just shipped it to me. He didn't know me. We didn't know each other. Lito: He knew you because of books. He knew you because he loved literature. Annie: Yeah. And I remember that in it. I held on to it at a time when that act really mattered. Lito: One of the things I love about our interview with Justin and Angela is how much all of us talk about generosity, and how Justin and Angela display it in their conversation with each other and with us. And I'm just curious, how do you see that coming through also in Angela's work? Annie: (07:00) You know, I remember her talking about how the idea for the book began with this image of people moving around a house at night. This is The Turner House. And she says this image opens up a lot of questions. And one of the things that really stays with me about that book is how masterful she is at shifting perspective, particularly between siblings, which I find to be such a challenge for writers, right? Like your siblings are the people who are closest to you and sometimes also the farthest away. And she gets that so intimately on the page. And of course, in our conversation with Angela and Justin, one of the things they talk about is being family, essentially being siblings. And that's one of the most powerful echoes of the conversation. They talk about being a chosen family and having to choose again and again and again. And that spirit of consciousness and connection, I feel that very much in Angela's work, and of course in Justin's too. Lito: Oh Annie, I choose you again and again, I choose you. Annie: Oh, I choo-choo-choose you! Lito: So stupid. Annie: (08:05) After the break, we'll be back with Justin and Angela. Annie: (08:24) And we're back. Lito: I just wanted to mention, too, that we spoke with Angela and Justin in October during the writer's strike in Hollywood, and just before Justin's new book, Blackouts, was released. And just last week, as you're hearing this podcast. Annie: Just last week. Lito: Just last week! He won the National Book Award for a book that took him 10 years to write. Annie: Absolutely. Annie: Justin Torres is the author of Blackouts, a novel about queer histories that are hidden, erased and re-imagined. Blackouts won the 2023 National Book Award for fiction. His debut novel, We the Animals, has been translated into 15 languages and was adapted into a feature film. He was named National Book Foundation's Five Under 35. His work appears in the New Yorker, Harper's, Granta, Tin House, Best American Essays, and elsewhere. He lives in Los Angeles and teaches at UCLA. Lito: Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, won the VCU-Cabel First Novel Prize, and was also a finalist for both the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and an NAACP Image Award. Angela is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and her nonfiction has appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Angela is a faculty member in the low residency MFA program at Warren Wilson College. Lito: (10:36) I'm so grateful that you guys found time to meet with us today, and I've thought about you two as friends since I think this is like the first time you've done something like what you did in 2017, the "Proper Missive"—do you remember that—you published in Spook? And it stuck with me. I was like a big, nerding out, and I bought it and I have it still. And I thought about that. And Justin, you know that you're very personal— there's a personal connection with me because I found your book on my way to my first master's program. No one had said anything about it to me where I was coming from, and it was really great. And Angela, I first found your book. I was so amazed and moved by the talk you don't remember at Syracuse. Angela: I don't remember the lunch. I remember being at Syracuse, and there being a talk, yes. Lito: You inscribed your book, "Here's to Language," which I think is hilarious and also really sweet. And I think we must have said something about language at some point. But anyways, thank you so much both for being here. Justin: Thank you for having us. Angela: Very happy to be here. Lito: So let's start. Why don't you tell us about your friend in a few sentences? So Angela, you can go first. Tell us about Justin. Angela: (11:23) Justin is the first person that I met in Iowa City when I was visiting and deciding if I was going to go there, but was I really deciding no? I'll let you go there. But that I could like, deciding whether I would be miserable while I was there. And so Justin was the first person I met. And feel like Justin is five years older than me. It has to be said.  Justin: Does it? Angela: When I think about people, and I think about like mentors, I have other like amazing mentors, but like, I think that there's really something special about somebody who some people might think is your peer, but like, in a lot of ways you've been like looking up to them and, um, that has been me with Justin. I think of him as like a person who is not only, he's a Capricorn, and he has big Capricorn energy. I am an Aquarius. I do not want to be perceived— Justin: I don't agree with any of this. But I don't know. I don't follow any of this. Angela: But Justin is in the business of perceiving me and also gathering me up and helping me do better. My life is just always getting better because of it. I'm grateful for it. Annie: That is beautiful, all of that is beautiful. Justin, tell us about Angela. Justin: I can't follow that, that is so...  Angela: Acurate! Justin: You're so prepared! You're so sweet! I'm so touched! Angela: Only a Capricorn would be touched by somebody saying that you perceive them and gather them up and make them feel better. Ha ha ha! Justin: I like that, I do like that. Let's see, yeah. I mean, I think that when we met, I had already been in Iowa for a year, and within two seconds, I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends, and you don't know it yet. But I knew it intensely. And yeah, I think that one of the, I agree that I think we keep each other honest, I think. I think that one of the things that I just so appreciate about Angela is that, you know, yeah, you see my bullshit. You put up with it for like a certain amount of time, and then you're like, all right, we need to talk about the bullshit that you're pulling right now. And I love it, I love it, love it, love it, because I don't know, I think you really keep me grounded. I think that, yeah, it's been really (14:09) wonderful to have you in my life. And like, our lives really, really kind of pivoted towards one another. You know, like we've, it was not just like, oh, we were in grad school and then, you know, whatever, we have similar career paths, so we stayed friends or whatever. It's like, we became family. And, you know, every, every kind of major event in either of our lives is a major event, a shared major event, right? And that's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine my life without you. I honestly can't. Angela: Likewise. I gave birth in Justin's home. Annie: Oh! Sweet! Justin: In my bathroom, over there. Right over there. Lito: Whoa, congratulations, and also scary(?)! Angela: It's in a book I'm writing, so I won't say so much about it, but it was a COVID home birth success story. And yeah, like family. Lito: Was that the plan or did that just happen? Angela: Well, It wasn't the plan and then it was the plan. Justin: Yeah, exactly. COVID wasn't the plan. Angela: No. Justin: The plan was Angela was gonna sublet my place with her husband and she was pregnant. And then, COVID happened Angela: There were a lot of pivots. But we did, it was like enough of a plan where we got his blessing to give birth in his home. Justin: It wasn't a surprise. Angela: It was a surprise that it was in the bathroom, but that's a different story. Annie: You blessed that bathroom is all I can say. Angela: Yeah. Lito: We'll be right back. Back to the show. Annie: (16:22) Well, I want to come back to what Lido was saying about proper missives. I love the intimacy. I mean, I know you weren't writing those to one another for kind of public consumption, but the intimacy and the connection, it's so moving. And I was thinking about, you know, Justin, you, you talk about Angela as kind of pointing the way to beauty and helping you see the world anew or differently. And Angela, you talked about how Justin encourages you to take up space as a political act. I'm just wondering what else you all have taught one another. What has your LitFriend taught you? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we did write that for public consumption. Angela: Yes, it was the editor-in-chief of Spook, Jason Parham. Spook is relaunching soon, so look out for it. He just told me that, like, the other day. And he's moving to L.A. So many things are happening. But he reached out to us and was really interested in—he's a big archives guy and like how—he thought it was valuable the way that writers of past generations, they have these documents of their letters to each other, to their editors, to their friends, to their enemies, and how this generation, because we're just texting through it, we don't really have that. And so that was really just the extent of the assignment, was to write letters to each other, which, of course, we still ended up using email to do. But we really tried to keep it in the spirit of a letter and not just something you kind of dash off. Justin: And we were not living in the same place at that time. Angela: No. Justin: So it was, it did feel kind of— Angela: I was in Provincetown, I think. Justin: Yeah, I remember I was on a train when I was, when I was doing— I can't remember where I was going or, but I remember a lot of it was— or a few of those correspondences— because it went over days, weeks. Lito: Yeah, you were going to Paris. Angela: Oh. Glamorous train. You were on the Eurostar. Justin: Wow. Annie: You basically said the same thing then, Angela. Call him out. Justin: (18:32) Yeah, and I think that what I was saying was that one of the things I loved about that was it really forced us to dive deeper, right? To kind of— Sometimes we can stay very much on the surface because we talk every day. And so it was really nice to see, not just what was kind of on your mind in the background, but also how you were processing it, how you kind of made language and meaning out of it. I was just like... I don't know, it's like, I know you're so deep, but then we also love to be shallow. And so it's so nice to be like, to connect from that deep place. Annie: One of the things that I'm so drawn to about both of your work is how you write about family, the way it shapes us, the way it wounds us, what it means to watch family members suffer. You talk about it as the question of the donut hole in "Proper Missive. Angela, I remember you were writing about your father. When you were writing about him, you talk about, "the assumption that a flawed person should be subject to anyone's definition." And Justin, I'm thinking quite broadly in terms of, you know, chosen or logical family. One of my favorite pieces that I teach in my creative non-fiction class is "Leashed," and you write there, "my friends, those tough women and queers were all too sharp and creative for their jobs. If I'm nostalgic, it's not because I was happy in those precarious years, but because I was deeply moved by our resourcefulness." I'm just wondering how you think about, you know, (20:09) family, logical family, and how your lit friendship fits into this? Justin: Who's going first? Angela: You. Justin: Let's see, I think that it's such a great question. I actually like, I use that little short kind of tiny little piece that you referenced. I use that in my book, in Blackouts, that's coming out. I think that, which is a book about chosen family as well, and lineages, and what do you do when you feel there's some kind of disruption, right? That like if you're estranged from your biological family or you know or you just need these connections, these kind of queer connections to and other ways of thinking about family that are not related to (21:06) bloodlines. Like we said earlier, we are family, and we've known that for quite a while. It was something that, I don't know. You know, it's like something that I don't think you ever really need to say. It's just you know who your people are. And I think that, and I think that it's a choice that you make and remake again and again and again. And that is something that is, I don't know, it's so exceptional, right? Compared to bloodlines and biological family, which can be hugely important and bring a lot of meaning to people. But that you're choosing this again and again. Like almost like the kind of past tense chosen family is like, it's like a little bit inaccurate, right? It's like the family you choose, and keep choosing, and you're choosing right now, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Angela: Just that the continuity of it, not in the sense that it's always going to be there, but that like you are, you're like an active, uh, engager like in it. In it, I just think about, I think about that, like, uh, at this point we know each other for 14 years. And the way that there's just necessarily we're not the same people but you have to keep, and you have to keep engaging, and you have to keep figuring out how to navigate different things and I think particularly as like LitFriends there's the huge thing you have to navigate which is especially if you're friends before that you're just like some kids who got into this program that people think are fancy, but you're just like, anything can happen, right? From there to being the capital— going from just like lowercase w, "writer," to capital A, "Author." And like what that, I mean, I've seen many a friendship where that is the rupture. And so particularly figuring out, like, how are you going to navigate that, and how are you going to still be in each other's lives. (23:16.33) Um, one thing I think about, as a person who thinks about family a lot is, with your family, sometimes you can like harm one another, and you'll just take some time off, or you'll just be like, that's how they are. But with the family that you continue to choose, you have to, ideally, you gotta do something about it. You have to actually have the engagement, and you have to figure out how to come out on the other side of it. And that is something that is harder and really in so many ways, all the more precious because of it. And it requires a kind of resilience and also just like a trust. And again, because Justin, you know, likes to gather me up, there's been a few times when I was like, "Oh, no, like, we've got beef, what's gonna happen?" And Justin is like, "we're family, what's gonna happen is we're gonna have to talk about this beef, and then move on." Justin: Yeah. And I think that I think that also you have, you're really good at reminding me to be responsible, right? That just because I've made this commitment, in my mind, right, Like we're committed forever. Like we're family. Like we can't, we can't break up, right? Like it's just like, that's just the way it is. It doesn't get me off the hook of showing up in other ways and being responsible and like, you know, that I can be quite flaky. Angela: I mean, that's just, you've been in L.A. long enough. It's just, you're just becoming native. Justin:  I think I always don't, I don't wanna disappoint you. I don't want you ever to feel like you were looking around for support, and I wasn't there. Angela: Do people cry on this podcast? Annie: We time it. Right at the half hour. Justin: There's been a few moments when I feel it, when I've felt (25:21) maybe that wasn't there enough, you know? And, you know, and if, you know, and like, I don't know, that's when you know it's the real stuff because it like keeps me up at night. You know, I'm just like, wow, you know, what does she need? What can I give? How can I be there? And yeah. Angela: Wow.  There you are. Justin: Here we are. Annie: Lito and I are also family, and it sort of feels never too late. But what you're saying about kind of the like renewing your vows, renewing your commitment over and over, it feels very, very true. Lito: Very true. Yeah yeah yeah. Annie: And life-saving, you know, like life affirming. Lito: It feels real. Justin: Yeah. Look at us. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of you guys too. Lito: It's a love fest over here. Angela: Thanks for having it. Annie: We'll be right back. Annie: (26:26) Welcome back. Angela: Also, particularly again, thinking about a lot of the friends that you have, they're not necessarily also sometimes colleagues. And I think that one thing that Justin really modeled, because I didn't have anything to be transparent about, was just transparency about things. Not just how much he's getting paid for things, but just like what was worth it, what's not worth it, like what is just the way something is and you can like take it or leave it. And I think that in the beginning it was more of me kind of taking that information because I didn't have anybody offering me anything. But now I feel like it's really an exchange of information. And I think that there are people who I love, like, in this industry, if you will, who that's just not our relationship. That doesn't mean we don't have great friendships, but like that is something that like if I'm broke, he knows I'm broke. I never feel the need to pretend and hide or like, you know, and likewise, like if he don't got it, I know he don't got it. It's not, it's just, it just, and I feel like that is something also that is a, it's, um, I think it's important. Especially because you write a book, you know, it does well. And then there are some years in between before you write another. Some of us in this room, maybe take a decade. All of us in this room, maybe take a decade. But yeah, so just really being able to be, to feel like you can still show up at any point in whatever you're doing creatively. Justin: (28:16) Because this is about literary friendships, I think that it's, yeah, there's those two sides, right? There's the business side, which can cause a lot of friction, especially if, you know, things go differently for different books and people have different trajectories. I mean, you're like, you know:  you've surpassed.  Angela: I don't know if that's true.  Justin: But there's that like business side of it. And then there's the literary side as well. And I think that sometimes if it just slides too much into talking about—it's like we could both be selling sprockets, right? There's so much minutiae. It's like we could talk about contracts and whatever and like gigs and da-da-da ad nauseam. And we have to remember to talk about literary side, the literature, the work, the sentences, what we're reading in order to kind of sustain the literary quality of a literary friendship, right?  Angela: One thing I remember you told me, I don't know, ages ago that I thought at the time like oh he's gassing me he's practicing things that he says his students tell me—but now I realize that it is also one of the reasons why our friendship has sustained is you were like ,you know, we can talk about whether a book is successful in 800 ways, but we have to try to remember to just be fans, to be fans of books, of literature, of people writing. And I think that is something that I not only try to practice, but that's something that I think is really foundational to relationship. Everyone can be a hater, and it can be fun sometimes, but like… (30:08) We really do like want to put each other on to the books that we're like excited about. Like I remember when you read or reread Seasons of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih, and I hadn't read it before.  I mean, it's like a, it's a seminal or really a really famous African text, but I had never read it. Or like Maryse Condé, like I hadn't read it as like a real adult and being able to just like talk about that and know that there's a person who's, you know, you could be in polite conversation with somebody who you think is really smart and then you're like you know what I decided I wanted to reread—I don't know—something a person might wanna reread and they're like, Oh, what are you gonna do next? You gonna read a Moby Dick? And you're like, Oh damn, they just shamed me. You know, they just shamed me for being a nerd. But that's not gonna happen here. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Annie: I do wanna go back to something you were alluding to. Angela, you were talking quite openly about it, too, which is shifting from writer to capital A author and the pressure that comes with that.  For the two of you, you had incredible well-deserved success early in your career, but I imagine that doesn't come without a lot of sleepless nights, right? I'm thinking about an interview I heard with Ta-Nehisi Coates where he talks about his friends not reaching out thinking, like, He's good, like, You blew up, you're good. And talking about actually what a lonely position that can be. I'm just wondering, you know, how you've both managed to take care of one another through those highs and lows, or being on that track alongside one another.  And even, you know, competition between lit friends. Justin: (32:13) Yeah, I mean, I think that we're just kind of, like our dispositions: we're very lucky in that I think we, before we met, it wasn't something that we like decided on. It was just before we met, I think we're just boosters, right. We're like, The people we love, their success is our success, right? And I think that's one of the reasons to where we are such good friends, it's because we share that, right? So that I think makes it slightly easier as far as like the competition side of things goes. I think that if it really does feel like you're a family and you're community and like you understand that this is a kind of shared win. I don't know, it's hard to talk about though because we both got really lucky.  Angela: Yeah.  Justin: You know, I mean, who wants to hear from people who got really lucky with their first books talking about how hard it is? You know what I mean?  We just, we didn't have, we didn't have any kind of that disparity between— Angela: Yeah, I'm sure, but—I would say even so—if we had different dispositions, we might be trying to split hairs about who got what. But I think for me—and Justin and I grew up very differently in some ways, but I think we grew up from a class background similarly, and we're both like, We're not supposed to be here, like, what can we get? Like, what can we get? And like, who has the information to help us get it? And so I've never been like, why is he in that room when I'm not in that room? I'm like, give me the intel about the room. That might be the closest I ever get to being in there, but I need to know like what's going on in there. And that has, I think, been the way that I just view any success of anybody that I know. that I feel like I can ask those questions to is like, not necessarily like, oh, can you put me on? Like now that you have something, can I have some of it? But just like, just information, just like, what's it like? And that to me is really useful. But also I think that one thing, when you have people, not just Justin, but like other friends and mentors of mine, when you have people who are honest and upfront about whatever kind of success they've had, you… you just realize that there's a lot of different ways to feel successful, right? Because I have friends who, to me, I'm like, they made it, but they're not convinced they have. And I have other friends that, like, to the outside world, they'd be like, wow, they have a little book, nobody cares. But they feel like they did it, you know? And so I realized it's so much about disposition also. Lito:   Do you feel that a lot about being each other's boosters? I mean, obviously it's about your personalities and who you are as people. I'm also curious how much of that, like Angela, you said you were a gatecrasher. You feel like a gatecrasher a lot. I don't know. What are your thoughts on intersectionality? How does it inform your work and your friendship? How does it affect how you boost each other? I'm also curious if there's something particular about lit friendships that intersect with intersectionality and those categories, especially for people who form intimate relationships with men.  Justin:   Wait, say more.  Like how do blowjobs come in?   Angela:  (36:01.171). I was like one thing we have in common is— Lito: More like, less blow jobs, more like having to deal with men and the various ways they, you know, respond to patriarchy.  Justin: Yeah, I think you kind of said it, right? I think that there's something about hustling and figuring out, like, how am I gonna find some stability in this world.  And I mean we have nominated each other for every single thing that there is. If either one of us gets a chance.  Angela: Till the end of time.  Justin:   Till the end of time, right? And it's just, and I think that, and we've shared all information about everything. There's no, and I think that that's kind of like that quote that you read before, right, about this nostalgia and feeling nostalgic, not for the precarity, but for the way that it bonds people, right? The way that the precarity, like you pull, you share resources, you pull resources, you come together and you talk shit and you don't let people get too down in the dumps and depressed. And you're like, no, we're going to do this. We're going to get ourselves out of this hole and we're going to pull each other up. And, and that I think is like, that's, that's the secret, I think.  Angela: Are you answering the question about men?  Justin:   Oh, men!  Angela: And dealing with men.  Justin: I love that I was just like, oh, you're talking about blow jobs. But no, you were talking about patriarchy.  Lito: Same thing, really.  Annie: In the room I'm in, we do not think there's a difference.  Justin: It's fascinating, right? Because when we were at Iowa together, I remember some of the critiques I got from some of the men, some of the straight men, some of the white straight men, was about a kind of provincialism to my writing, right? That what I was writing about was small and minor and just about particularities of identity and that it wasn't broad and expansive and it wasn't universal. That was expected. That was the kind of critique that was expected. The world has changed so much and so quickly in the last 15 years. It's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because that kind of thing, I wasn't, I didn't feel indignant. Maybe I felt a little.  Angela: Yeah, you just, but you just like knew you were going to ignore them. Like, you know, like, but no, but you didn't feel like you were going to, like it was worth, except there were some instances we're not going to get into details, but like, it didn't feel like it was worth spending, like unpacking it or trying to call them out. You just were like, Oh, boop, you're over here. Like, you're not.  Justin: Yeah, yeah. Like, I've been hearing this shit my whole life. Like, it wasn't like, there's no space for this kind of thing in the workshop. I was like, this is the world. This is unexpected. But now I don't think that would fly, right?  Angela:   No. I think maybe in like 70% of workshop spaces that I have been in. Well, I guess I've been running them. But like, I just don't, but like also just the disposition of the students is that they assume that somebody is going to like say something or push back on that. But also I guess maybe more broadly the idea of when you say intersectionality, what do you mean exactly? Lito: I think I wanted to keep it open on purpose. But I think I mean the ways that all of these different identities that we take up and that are imposed upon us, how they intersect with one another, race, class, et cetera. Yeah. Angela: I think one of the reasons why Justin and I gravitated toward each other probably in the beginning and why we ended up in Spook is because I think that—which maybe is also not happening 15 years from then—there is a way that back then, there was a way that even your identity could be flattened, right? Like you're Puerto Rican, which means that you are like a lot of things, right? One of those things like, one of it's like we're both diasporic people, right? But that's one of the things that I think a lot of people would not necessarily think is like a kinship between us, but like I've seen pictures of Justin's cousins. I know I'm giving Primo over here. Like I know what I'm doing. And like that's one way that I think that our relationship feels like, like we just felt like kin when we first met because of that. I think that there's just a lot of ways that in a lot of spaces in this country, you're just not allowed to like have all of those parts of you in the room because people just don't understand it or they do, but they just don't want you to be that also.  Justin: It's not convenient.  Angela: Right. Which is why I was like, of course, Jason would ask you and I to be in Spook, which is a magazine that's a black literary magazine. Cause Jason gets it. Shout out to Jason again.  Justin: I can't believe he's moving to L.A., that's so exciting.  Angela: Supposedly like any day now, he's just gonna arrive. There's just ways that when you find your people, you don't have to always separate these parts of you and you don't always have to keep reminding them also, they sort of understand. But also parts of you change obviously and the way that you feel about your identity changes and your people will embrace that and keep, you know, keep making space for that too. Justin: Making space.  Annie: We'll be back in a moment with Angela and Justin. Lito: (42:22) Hey Lit Fam, we hope you're enjoying our conversation with Justin and Angela. We are quite awed by their thoughtful discussion and moved by their deep love for each other and their art. If you love what we're doing, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much to continue bringing you great conversations like this week, after week. Thank you for listening. Annie: (42:59.178) Back to our interview with Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy.  Lito: Justin, you have your sophomore book. How do you feel about it? Are you going to write a sequel for We the Animals like you talked about at one point? Angela, same question. Are there sequels coming forth for you, Angela, to Turner House, or are you moving on to something else? Or you sort of briefly mentioned another book about, uh, I remember you mentioning at some point a book about friends, four female friends, if I remember correctly. Anyways, what's coming next?  Annie: Yeah, and I wanna know about the dreaded second novel because I feel like that's where I'm at. I feel like that's where a lot of writers get stuck. Jutin: Second novel's awful. I mean, you think the first one's bad. You think it takes everything that you have inside of you and then you're like, oh, I've gotta do it again. And yeah, I don't know. I really had a very hard time with it. And I mean, nobody knows better than Angela. I really, really didn't feel like I was up to the task. I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew I wanted to kind of change the way I write and be a different kind of writer, but I just felt like I was falling on my face.  Even after it was done and out until like last week, I was just, I just felt anxiety about it, and I felt really neurotic and I was being really neurotic. And I remember the other night we were hanging out and drinking and maybe there was some mushroom chocolate involved. I was just, like I was just on my bullshit and Angela was just like stopped and she was just like, What is it gonna take to make you happy? Like what is it gonna take? Like look around. And it was like, it was a really good intervention. But then it also led to this conversation about happiness, right? And about like whether that is the goal, right? Like feeling kind of tortured and, and feeling like this gap between what you want for your book and your own capabilities. And that never goes away. You just live in this, in this torturous phase. And like, maybe it's about just coming to acceptance with that, rather than striving for happiness. I don't know. But it's still ringing in my ear. What is it gonna take?  Lito: It's a great question.  Angela:   Maybe some projection, I don't know, on my part.  I am still working on that novel. It's due at the end or at the beginning of next year. It's gonna come out in 2025. You know, God willing. And... similarly the second novel, I think it depends on your disposition, but I think both of us are very interested in and task ourselves with having real skin in the game with what we right. That means sometimes you got to figure out where you get that skin from.  Lito: There's only so much.  Angela: Like, if you played yourself for the first book, then it's gonna take a while. And when I think about, like, when I try to count for the years, I don't know I could have done it any quicker. Like, I just don't know. And I don't think that's gonna be the case for every book, but I do think between that first and that second, especially, were you 30? Where were you? I was 30, yeah. And then I was 30, too. I was 30 also when my book came out. You're just a baby.  You're just a baby.  Lito: Do you fall into the trap of comparing yourself to other people? Well, they wrote a book in two years and I— Justin:  (47:07) Yeah, sure. I mean, I also like compare myself to people who took longer like that feels good. That feels good.  Angela: Listen, I'm like Deborah Eisenberg. Just a banger every decade. That's it. That's all I owe the world. A banger a decade. Lito: A banger a decade. I like that. I like comparing myself to Amy Clampitt, who wrote her first collection of poetry, like in her 70s or something and had some success.  Justin: I generally wish people would slow down. I mean, I get that sometimes there's just like an economic imperative, right? But if you're lucky enough that, I don't know, you get a teaching job and you can slow down, why not slow down, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there are a lot of books in this world. And the books that somebody spent a lot of time over, whether or not they are my tastes—I'm just so appreciative of the thoughtfulness that went in.  You can feel it, right? That somebody was really considering what they're building versus dashing it off. They should slow down, if they can.  Angela: But I also feel like we need both kinds. There are people who I appreciate their books, their kind of time capsules of just like, this is the two years, this is where I was. I think of Yiyun. We need an Yiyun Li and we need an Edward P. Jones. Edward P. Jones, you're gonna get those books when you get the books. And Yiyun Li, every couple years, you're gonna get something that, to me, I still, they still feel like really good books, but they're also just like, this is where she is right here, and I respect it and I appreciate it. Everybody can't be one or the other, you know?  Justin: You're right, you're right, you're right. It's much fairer.  Annie: She's someone who, I mean, you know, seems to have changed so much even within that time period. And we had her on a couple of episodes ago and yeah, she's just on fire. She's amazing.  Justin: (49:06) And people speed up as well, right? Because her first couple of books, there were big gaps. And then same thing with like Marilynne Robinson, right? She had massive gaps between books. And then suddenly it starts to speed up. And they're coming out every year, every two years. Yeah. Annie: It's the mortality.  Lito: Well, and life, well, I think lifestyle too, right? Like what you do, how busy you are and what you do out in the world. Like going out and meeting people and being gay in the world, that takes up time.  Annie: And your work has had other lives too. I mean, I'm thinking about how We the Animals was adapted to film in that beautiful, intimate portrait. And I know, you know, Angela, you've been working with HBO and some projects as well. I'm just, just wondering if you want to talk about your work in these other media, how it's been, and even thinking about the strikes, right? Like the WGA-SAG strikes and how that has been on the ground too.  Angela:  Very happy that the strike is over. Solidarity to our SAG-AFTRA brothers and sisters still out there. I passed them on the way here on Sunset. I did honk, wish I was out there today. But I think that for me, it's just like a bonus. Like I, especially now, there's a way that right now writers will say things that are a little snobby like, Oh, I could never be in a writer's room, the group project, man. But like when now that I know so many TV writers living here and I've met so many over the past 146 days on the line, I realized that it is, you just have to be so nimble and agile and you have to also be so not precious about story. But no less smart. A lot of things might end up on TV dumb, but I don't want to blame the writers for that. Now that I really have a real understanding of just how the sausage is made and just how big of like a game of telephone it is—and how much you have to relinquish control because at the end of the day it's like you're making this text, it's literary, but it's also like an instruction manual. It's a completely different way to think about writing. And I don't know how long I live in LA or how many like of those kind of projects I will do but I'm really grateful. And one reason I'm really grateful is because doing those projects and having those years where people thought I wasn't doing anything, but I was actually writing so much and like doing so many revisions.  It helped me realize that there is a way that I blame MFAs for making us like feel very siloed. And like, if you're supposed to be a fiction writer, that's the only thing that you do that's like an output that anyone cares about. But it's so new—like, how many screenplays did Joan Didion write? Like James Baldwin wrote screenplays. Before, it was just like, you're writing, you're writing. Like it's all, it all is the job. And I think every time a poet friend of mine like puts out a novel, sends it to me, read, sends it for me to read—first off, they usually are very good. But then also I'm just like, yes, fiction writers, I think, I don't know who did it. I blame graduate programs, but they have put themselves in this small box. Justin: But yeah, I mean, it's like the MFA, a lot of them feel like teacher training programs and that the next step is teaching. But if you don't want to teach the old models, definitely like you just write for TV. Angela: You write for film, you write for magazines, newspapers, you just do the thing. And that has felt very freeing to me, to just see meet more people who are doing that and also to allow myself to do that. Justin (52:49) Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the process of having my film—the book made into a film. I think I had an unusual experience with that. Like a lot of times the author is cut out or, you know, is not deferred to in any way, or nobody's inviting you in. I think because it was such a low budget film, and the director is just a really wonderful person who is incredibly collaborative.  He wanted me involved in every single part of it, and so I loved that. I think, I don't know, I think I might wanna adapt Blackouts for a play. I've been thinking about it lately. Angela: You should. I mean, in so many ways, it is kind of like a two-hander. Yeah. I could see it. Yeah.  Justin: A two-hander. Look at you ready to lingo. No, that's some biz lingo.  Lito: That's going to be the title of this podcast. It's a two-hander. How has art shaped your friendship? And I mean, art, like other genres, we've talked about getting out of the box of fiction, but what movies or art or music do you love to talk about or do you just talk about everything or anything that you're watching and how have other genres affected your work? Like, do you listen to music? Are you influenced by visual art?  Angela: You wanna talk about things you watch on television? You ready to come out in that manner?  Justin: No.  Lito: You watch lots of TV? No. Are you a Housewives person?  You're a Housewives watcher, aren't you?  Justin: Housewives is too highbrow for me. I have like a…I have a secret fetish that is mine. Angela: You have to keep some things for yourself. Justin: Yes. But it's just like, that's how I turn my brain off when my brain needs to be turned off.  Annie: I will wait another decade for that story. Justin: I also like culture and high art as well. You write about art a lot. You do profiles. Angela: I do. I wish I did it more. It's just everything, you know, takes time. I think for me, like when I think about—I just am learning different ways to make a life out of, you know, out of your mind and out of art. And one thing that I've learned when I talk to, like visual artists, particularly, is this idea—I think poets also have this—but fiction writers, a friend of mine actually, a poet, recently asked me, like, how does a fiction writer get a practice, like a practice of writing? Practicing their craft in a way that like a visual artist, you know, they go to the studio practice or poet might have a practice. And I don't believe necessarily that sitting down to write every, you know, three hours every day is the same thing. Because like if you don't know what you're writing, but I really do think that practice is more grounded in reading.  Justin: And reading, I think reading literature for sure, but also reading the world, right? And that's what you do when you go to an exhibit or you go to a museum or you go to a concert or whatever, right, you're like reading, you know, and you're reading the experience, you're reading for other things.  Lito: Is there anything you're both fans of that you both talk about a lot? Any artists or musicians or movies? Justin (56:26) You know, I think that we have some lowbrow sharing tastes. But I think that our highbrow, I don't know. We don't talk a lot about our pursuant— I think I'm into a lot of, like when I was looking at, when I was putting together Blackouts, I was looking at a lot of archival photos and like the photos of Carl Van Vechten, I just, I'm obsessed with…  I've been spending a lot of time with them, thinking about him and his practice. I think that, you know, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm like a whatever, what's that horrible term? Culture vulture?  Angela: I don't think that's what you wanna say. But I know what you mean, yeah.  Justin: Yeah, I am democratic in my tastes. I'm just like, I like everything. We don't have a lot of shared tastes, I don't think.  Angela: Um... No?  Justine: No.  Annie:  I sort of love that. I mean, it, um, the friendship, belies, that, you know, it's only a bonus in that way. I think Lito and I also have very different tastes. There's something kind of lovely about that. Lito: I remember Annie making fun of me for not being hardcore enough in my taste in hip-hop. Annie:    I guess we're putting our dirt out there too.  Lito:   We'll be right back with the Lightning Round. Annie:   Ooh, Lightning Round. Annie: (58:12) Thank you both for talking with us today. This was really wonderful. We really feel the honesty and warmth in your friendship and we're so appreciative that you're sharing that with us today and with all of our LitFriends. We're excited for both your books and we're so grateful you spent the last hour with us.  Angela: That was a pleasure.  Justin: Thank you. Lito: All right, we're gonna we— wrap up the podcast with a Lightning Round, just a few questions. We will ask the question and then I guess we'll do it this way. When I ask the question, Angela, you can answer. And when Annie asks the question, Justin, you answer first. Sorry, first answer first. You're both going to answer the question. What is your first memory?  Angela:  My sister roller skating through sprinklers and falling and hitting her head. Justin: I literally have no idea. I, yeah, I don't know. It's a blackout.  Angela: How many times have you said that?  Lito:  Very on brand.  Angela: You've had a long book tour. Justin: I'm practicing.  Annie: Who or what broke your heart first?  Angela: Is it too deep to say my daddy? I know.  Justin: I was going to say my daddy.  Angela: That's why we're friends.  Justin: I know. It's so sad.  Angela: (59:37) Daddy issues.  Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history?  Angela: Toni Morrison.   Justin: Yeah, maybe Manuel Puig. He seemed really cap and hilarious. And also a brilliant genius.  Angela: I need Toni Morrison to tell me how to raise my child. And to still write books. Someone help me. Annie: What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next, maybe something collaborative or something different or a story they haven't told yet?  Justin: I mean, I think I would love to see you actually write something kind of ekphrastic. Like I'd love to see you write about art. I love when you write about art. I love your thoughts about art and art makers. So maybe, like, a collection of essays about culture. I'd love that. Angela: Besides this two-handed, this play, which I would love for you to write. Maybe there's more, I mean, there's more voices in the book than two, though. So it doesn't have to be. Justin is a poet. I have said this since the beginning. I'm ready for this collection.  Justin: Never occurred to me in my life. Angela:   That is not true.  Justin:   Well, writing a collection. Angela:   Okay, well, I would love for you to write a collection of poetry.  Justin:   Maybe I will. Maybe you just gave me permission, as the children say.  Angela:   Mm-hmm. I know.  Lito: If you could give any gift to your LitFriend without limitations, what would you give them?  Angela: I would give him a house with a yard and a pool.  Justin: That's what I want.  Angela: In a city he wants to live in. That's the key.  Lito: That's the hard part. Justin:  (01:01:35) Um, I would give Angela time to be with her thoughts and her craft. I guess what does that involve?  Angela:   This is because I call myself a busy mom all the time.  Justin: You are a busy mom. Angela: (01:02:08) Thank you, that's a nice gift. Time is the best.  Justin: I mean, it's not as good as a house with a pool.  Angela: I know, because I can use my time as wisely as possible and yet—no pool. Lito: Well, that's our show. Annie & Lito: Happy Friendsgiving! Annie: Thanks for joining us, Lit Fam. Lito:   We'll be back next week with our guests, Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth. Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.  Lito:   And I'm Lito Velázquez.  Annie:   Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton. Lito:   Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.  Annie:   Lizette Saldaña is our marketing director.  Lito:   Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.  Annie:   And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez. This was LitFriends, Episode One.

Gamers on their way to a convention run afoul of violent criminals on the run.  Can they use their "skillz" to survive? [warning - some violence, language, and mature situations] Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Abby - Beverly Poole Mark - Brian Lomatewama Justin - Mathias Rebne Morgan Brianna - Lyndsey Thomas Tyler - Michael Faigenblum Clark - Brandon O'Brien News Report - Gwendolyn Gieseke-Woodard Man - Bill Hollweg Music of DARKEST OF THE HILLSIDE THICKETS!  used with permission Show theme and Incidental Music:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Recorded with the assistance of Ryan Hirst of Neohoodoo Studio Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a van on a road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?" _______________________________________ EXIT STRATEGY Cast: Mark - Game Master, in a wheelchair Abby - strategy girl Justin - the driver, Mark's brother Brianna - nurse, dating Tyler Tyler - wiry LARPer, dating Brianna Clark - a criminal Thug - another criminal SOUND     FOOTSTEPS OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a car on a stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      INSIDE CAR NOISES SOUND     Music plays on the radio SOUND     "BING" FROM THE DASHBOARD SOUND     Justin turns down the stereo JUSTIN     We're riding E.  [up] Eyes peeled for a gas station, everybody! MARK     Hey, Justin, remember when it used to be sooo cool to cross the state line? JUSTIN     Yeah - some things just lose their charm as you get older, little bro. MARK     And can drink legally in your own state... ABBY     Don't drink and game.  It dulls your edge. JUSTIN     You've got enough edge for all of us, Abby.  BRIANNA     [slightly off, giggles] I would too. TYLER     [slightly off] That is so great.  You are so great. ABBY     You do realize we can hear you? JUSTIN     Keep it clean back there.  I'll lose my damage deposit on the van if it comes back stained. BRIANNA     Ew!  We were just-- TYLER     [defiant] I was just telling Bree that if she ever got possessed by a demon, I would totally kill her. BRIANNA     [squeaky] Isn't that sweet? ABBY     [baffled] Yeah.  [whispered] What do you think brought on this declaration of undying love? JUSTIN     Tyler brought his DVD player.  I think they're watching Evil Dead. ABBY     Oh. [that explains it] MARK     You guys are all going to help with the "Super Five" tournament, right?  I can count on you? ABBY     Well-- MARK     Well? ABBY     [hesitant] I was checking, and the final round of the "AfterBlast" championship is in the same time slot. MARK     [excited] You really think you have a chance? ABBY     Hell yeah.  I plan to kick ass and take names.  MARK     That rocks.  JUSTIN     I-- I noticed you were the only - um - ABBY     Discernibly female? JUSTIN     Yeah, that - name on the semi-finals roster.  ABBY     Yup.  Time to represent. MUSIC JUSTIN     Pit stop! MARK     Man, you are this close to losing your deposit. JUSTIN     Shit.  Your chair's packed! BRIANNA     I got you, Mark.  SOUND     DOOR SLIDES OPEN, SHIFTING SOUNDS AS SHE GETS OUT SOUND     FRONT DOOR OPENS BRIANNA     Come on, then. TYLER     [teasing, going off] No groping my girl, now. MARK     Hey!  My hand slipped.  Once. BRIANNA     Girl. [snort]  I am a woman. [grunts as she gets Mark on her back]  OK, hold on.  Tyler, got the door? TYLER     [off] Getting it! SOUND     QUICK FOOTSTEPS ON CONCRETE SOUND     DOOR OPENS. MEN'S ROOM SOUND     FLUSH, STALL DOOR OPENS MAN     Hey!  You can't be in here! BRIANNA     Puh-lease.  I'm a nurse.  Almost.  [sarcastic] And you should get that looked at. MUSIC AMBIANCE     NIGHTTIME ROAD, VERY QUIET MUSIC VERY QUIET ON THE STEREO JUSTIN     [quiet] Hey Abby? ABBY     [quiet, tired] Hmm? JUSTIN     Just wanted to see if you're awake. ABBY     Really?  Nice of you to check. JUSTIN     Well... I'm not sure how much farther it is to the motel, and I was starting to fade a bit.  Help keep me on the road? ABBY     [half yawning] Sure.  What's on your mind? JUSTIN     Any chance you and I - you know - sometime? ABBY     [half a laugh]  I've sworn a blood oath not to date any man who can't beat me in a fair game of AfterBlast. JUSTIN     Really? ABBY     Something like that.  No offense, OK?  You're nice.  But we're kind of different worlds. JUSTIN     I used to game--  ABBY     Used to.  You traded in your dice for the corporate world. JUSTIN     It's not that bad-- [sudden change]  Whoah. ABBY     What? JUSTIN     Nothing.  Just - there's headlights behind us.  They weren't there a minute ago. ABBY     Must have come round a corner.  SOUND     CREAK, TURN ABBY     [turned to look] Hmm.  How fast are we going? JUSTIN     Why? ABBY     They're catching up.  Should I wake everybody? JUSTIN     Well...  if there's a crash, they're better off asleep.  Relaxed.  It's a fact - why drunks walk away more often-- ABBY     It's still coming.  Can we get off the road?  JUSTIN     There just isn't any place to go!  The ditches are ... gaping black chasms! ABBY     What's our speed? JUSTIN     Seventy.  So far. SOUND     GROWLING ROAR, GETTING CLOSER ABBY     How much can you push a minivan? JUSTIN     Don't know.  It's a rental. ABBY     All right. [thinking]  Turn off the headlights. JUSTIN     What?  ABBY      There's a good moon - the road is straight as far as I can see right now - can you hold the wheel straight while you're blinded? SOUND     ROARING REVVING APPROACHES JUSTIN      I... guess-- yes. SOUND     HEADLIGHTS TURN OFF JUSTIN     [heavy breathing] ABBY     Once our eyes adjust, we can look for a turnoff - in the dark, with the headlights, we won't see it until it's too late.  JUSTIN     Does that work? ABBY     I don't know.  Yes!  There, to the left, a road. JUSTIN     We're going too fast! ABBY     Start the turn early, and run in at an angle.  It should work.  MARK     [half asleep] Yeah, the roll factors are considerably less-- JUSTIN     Roll factors? MARK     "Street Wars," core manual.  The turn gauge modifiers. JUSTIN     Whatever, here we go! SOUND     SCREECH MUSIC AMBIANCE     OUTSIDE SOUND     TICKING OF THE ENGINE MARK     I'm suitably impressed. JUSTIN     Thanks.  Me too. ABBY     It worked! JUSTIN     A flat tire-- ABBY     Just one. MARK     --is not bad, all things considered. ABBY     [encouraging] Besides you missed the ditch, and the car didn't even flip. MUSIC SOUND     ON THE ROAD AGAIN TYLER     Doesn't this whole thing remind anyone of a movie? JUSTIN     Movie?  What, Texas Chainsaw Massacre? ABBY     Wo!  We do have the right carload for leatherface. MARK     Hey, Justin, don't pick up any strangers, kay?  I don't wanna be the first to die. TYLER     No....  OK, think.  A brother and sister in a car, in the middle of nowhere-- BRIANNA     [helping] In the middle of the day-- TYLER     Run off the road by a huge spooky truck--?  Hmm? MARK     That wasn't a truck.  ABBY     It wasn't? MARK     While you guys were watching the road, I watched it go by - It was big and square-- TYLER     A truck. MARK     No.  Better than that - I saw words on the side. BRIANNA     A truck? MARK     [sigh] Nope.  I must have made a perfect success on my perception roll, though - it was an armored car.  JUSTIN     In the middle of the night?  In the middle of nowhere? ABBY     Radio.  There must be something. SOUND     RADIO ON, SURF CHANNELS, STOP ON AN AD MARK     I like N-P-R. ABBY     News channel, bub. [Moment just listening.] JUSTIN     OK, enough with the ads - give us some news. TYLER     If this was a movie, the minute we switched over, the news bulletin would come on right then.  Cheesy, eh? BRIANNA     It's just a genre convention - a way of condensing all this boring time spent listening to-- JUSTIN     Shh. SOUND     TURNS VOLUME UP NEWS     ...the third armored car hijacking this year, and the second one with fatalities.  Three security guards were injured in the attack-- JUSTIN     Wow.  We should call someone. ABBY     Already on it.  SOUND     CELL PHONE BEEPS ABBY     Damn.  No reception. NEWS     --two are in critical condition.  Pursuers lost the car in a high speed chase when the hijackers realized they were being tracked and dumped the onboard GPS at the side of the road.  JUSTIN     Well, the motel must be close.  They'll have a phone. NEWS     Police believe that one of the hijackers may have been injured in the attack... SOUND      CLICK RADIO OFF - no music here MARK      I thought we were supposed to reach it by ten? JUSTIN     Well, with all you small bladdered people, we had a lot more potty breaks than I allowed for.  And, o'course, getting run off the road...  Changing the tire... TYLER     There was that. BRIANNA     Think your Uncle Joey'll give us a discount for coming in so late - half the night, half price? TYLER     I'll ask him.  [yawns] In the morning, though. MUSIC SOUND     CAR, SNORING FROM ALL BUT JUSTIN SOUND     BUMP, THEN CAR PULLS TO A STOP JUSTIN     [trying to stay awake noise]  Holy crap, I think we're here. ABBY     [waking]  Mmm?  Oh good... JUSTIN     One moment and I'll go and check in... ABBY     No, I'll get it.  Gotta pee anyway.  Small bladder.  [yawns] All that. JUSTIN     [receding] I didn't mean.... SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS AND SHUTS SOUND     FOOTSTEPS ON GRAVEL, DOOR, BELL JINGLES ABBY     Hello?  Hello?  SOUND     RINGS DESK BELL SOUND     DOOR OPENS SOMEWHERE ABBY     [calling]  Look, I'm sorry to be coming in so late!  We had car trouble.  Can we get a room?  [beat]  Hello?  SOUND     FLUSH OF A TOILET ABBY     [needs to pee] Oh, jeez.  [deep shaky breath]  Hello? SOUND     DOOR OPENS CLARK     Hey.  Sorry about that.  I was catching a few.  You want a room? ABBY     Yeah, my friends and I - if you have a room with a couple of queens, we'll be fine. CLARK     Uh, sure.  Probably.  [looking around]  Nobody really here, tonight. ABBY     Could we have the one out on the end, then? CLARK     Don't see why not... um... ABBY     Says here it's room 14. CLARK     There you go.  [unconvincing laugh] So tired my eyes won't focus. SOUND     KEY SLAPPED ON TABLE ABBY     How much? CLARK     Oh, pay when you leave.  ABBY     Hmm.  Are you Joey? CLARK     Joey who? ABBY     [sharp intake of breath, then faking being ditzy]  Sorry - you look a lot like the cousin of a friend of mine.  CLARK     I get that a lot. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS, DOOR OPENS ABBY     Oh, can I use your bathroom?  It's kind of an emergency. CLARK     [too sharp] No!  I  mean, sorry - no can do.  Absolutely against policy.  Too bad you didn't get a room closer in, eh? ABBY     [flat, suspicious] Yeah. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS, JINGLE MUSIC SOUND     HOTEL ROOM DOOR SHUTS, FEET STUMBLE AROUND, BAGS DOWN, ETC. SOUND     BODY FLOPS ONTO BED JUSTIN     I am dead.  As driver, I call a bed.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR ROLLS MARK     I'm with you.  SOUND     FLUSH BRIANNA     I suppose Abby and I should share the... other...? I thought she said the room would have two beds? SOUND      DOOR OPENS ABBY     That clerk didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.  Did you park right next to the door Justin? JUSTIN     [half moan] Yes.  Why? ABBY     I have a bad feeling about all this.  TYLER     Any chance it has something to do with all the spooky movie talk in the car? BRIANNA     And the guy who ran us off the road? ABBY     Maybe.  JUSTIN     Well, unless you're ready to drive - and pay for the extra insurance - We're not moving from this spot until I wake up. ABBY     But the clerk - there was something wrong there.  Really.  God, for a chance at a spot hidden roll. MARK     [more awake] Describe him. BRIANNA     [groans]  Come on - it's beddy-bye time! MARK     Abby's got good instincts, Bree.  You know how hard it is for me to fool her. ABBY     That's just in game.  I'm not-- JUSTIN     [half asleep, but trying]  But you are the only girl-- BRIANNA     [half-hearted] Woman. JUSTIN     --to make it into the ... strategic final thingee-- ABBY     Ok.  Shit I'm tired.  [long deep thinking breath]  He wouldn't let me use the bathroom.  He didn't try and hit on me.  Didn't know which number room was the one on the end.  Didn't ask how many "we" were.  Didn't know which rooms have queen beds.  Didn't ask for a credit card. TYLER     So? He's dead tired too.  Big whoop.  It's [looks] 2 freaking 55 in the morning. MARK     Jeez, folks, we've had sessions which went long past 3!  What's wrong with you? JUSTIN     [muttered into the pillow]  Getting old. MARK     Yeah.  You 25-year old over the hill codger, you.  Abby, what would you do now?  ABBY     What? MARK     This is the scenario.  Right here.  What would you do? TYLER     Sleep. BRIANNA     Seconded. JUSTIN     [Snoring] MARK     Assume it's unlikely we can drive out of here - at least not conveniently.  How would you secure the room? ABBY      [perking up]  We could set watches-- TYLER     [mumbled] Screw you! ABBY     I can't watch all night.  Adrenaline is only good for so long. MARK     That guy struck you that bad? ABBY     Yeah.  I'm probably just-- MARK     Let's assume otherwise.  We have a map - of sorts - on the door there.  Take a look. ABBY     I - well, I got the room on the end, since we'd have a better chance of seeing or hearing anyone coming.  MARK     [chuckles] ABBY     I can't help it.  I'm already in strategy mode.  Ok, the room has windows at the front and back and a bathroom that abuts the next room.  No windows in the end wall.  If we could keep an eye either side-- SOUND     FEET ON CARPET, CURTAIN PULLED ASIDE, THEN WHIPPED BACK INTO PLACE. ABBY     Oh, shit. MARK     What? ABBY     God, I hope no one saw the light.  MARK     I'll turn it off.  Let them think we're asleep.  SOUND     CLICK OF SWITCH MARK     Now? ABBY     It's the truck - car - whatever!    The one that almost ran us off the road! MARK     [gasps]  Are you sure? ABBY     Come and look! MARK     I believe you.  We need everyone if this is a real situation.  Shit. ABBY     There's woods - cover - right out back.  If Tyler was up, he could go look. MARK     He's not going to be up any time soon. ABBY     I know what will-- I'm going to take a chance and get my other bag from the car.  I'll see what I can see.  MARK     I'll try the phone-- ABBY     No! MARK     Why? ABBY     Switchboard - I saw a switchboard in the office.  MARK     Shit.  Major "notice," though.  Good one. SOUND     DOOR OPENS MARK     Abby? ABBY     I'll be careful. MARK     [encouraging] I'm glad it's you. SOUND     DOOR SOFTLY CLOSES MARK      Shit.  SOUND     A moment of just snoring MUSIC      CREEPS IN, JUST A BIT MARK     [snorty, "almost fell asleep" noise]  Abby?  What time--?  Shit.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR SHIFTS MARK     [urgent hiss] Justin!  Wake up, dammit! JUSTIN     Wha--? MARK     Wake Up! SOUND     DOOR OPENS QUICKLY, FEET COME IN, DOOR SHUTS AGAIN MARK     God!  You nearly gave me a heart attack! ABBY     Sorry - I spotted someone out in the parking lot, just after I got in the van, and I didn't want to move again until it was clear.  JUSTIN     [almost awake] What's going on? ABBY     I'll get Tyler up. MARK     Go for it.  I doubt you'll have much luck. ABBY     Ah, but I have a secret weapon - I always pack a sixer with me to gaming cons.  SOUND     SLOSHING OF LIQUID MARK     [almost drooling] Energy shots. ABBY     Un-huh.  It may take a minute or two, but we'll get everyone up and running. MUSIC TYLER     All you had to do was shout "Bob! Bob is coming!" and I woulda been up and running without the taste of ass - Bob was the demon in the larp last weekend, and man was he-- MARK     Shush.  EVERYONE     [Murmurs of assent] MARK     Let's assume this is not a drill. EVERYONE     [a bit undecided murmurs] ABBY     I know there's something odd here.  I feel it. JUSTIN     Are you sure you're not just jittery about the tourney? ABBY     Probably am, but that doesn't make me think I'm wrong. BRIANNA     [Still groggy] What do you want us to do? MARK     Tyler, are you up for something that could be really dangerous? TYLER     Hell yeah. BRIANNA     [cautioning] Tyler? TYLER     Well, how dangerous? MARK     Abby? ABBY     Out the back window of the room, I think I saw that armored car that nearly ran us down.  It's parked in a dark spot.  If it's really the one, and there's any chance it's the same one that was stolen, there's a good chance we've walked in on a den of thieves.  We need to know.  Can you get within range of it and have a look? TYLER      Gimme a second. SOUND     FEET. CURTAIN MOVES BRIANNA     When you say "really dangerous"--? MARK     They already killed a couple of guys during the holdup.  I can't see them hesitating at shooting a few more bystanders. BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Bree, I've Larped with him, and if anyone can really sneak, it's Folemon. BRIANNA     But that's his character! ABBY     In live action games, there are things you either can do or you can't, and sneaking is‑‑ TYLER     [voice slightly different - "in character" as Folemon]  I spy the brigands' carriage.  I will hence and reconnoiter. BRIANNA     Be careful. TYLER     Fair maiden, with you to return to, I cannot fail.  [kiss on hand]  Douse the lanterns, lest my shadow betray me! MUSIC SOUND     LIGHT TAPPING NOISE, WHICH GOES ON THROUGHOUT JUSTIN     What are you doing? ABBY     What does it look like?  I'm checking for trap doors. JUSTIN     You're joking. BRIANNA     Didn't you see that movie Vacancy?  There was a trapdoor in the bathroom floor.  ABBY     That was so annoying.  They were so stupid about that. JUSTIN     About what? ABBY     Did you see the movie? JUSTIN     Well, no. ABBY     They could have easily blocked the hatch.  But they didn't and ended up fighting guys popping up out of it. BRIANNA     They couldn't block it - they tried.  There wasn't any heavy furniture. ABBY     [derisive laugh]  What do you call this? SOUND     DULL THUMP JUSTIN     A mattress. ABBY     Have you ever had to move one?  From a dead lift?  And if that's not enough, the trapdoor was right next to the tub - you just soak the damn thing and no one - not even Schwarzenegger-- BRIANNA     Well, back in his prime-- ABBY     Is going to be able to shift it. JUSTIN     You ...actually ...thought about this? ABBY     [matter of fact] It's what I do.  SOUND     KNOCKING BRIANNA     Lights out - it's the door.  SOUND     SCUFFLE OF MOVEMENT BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Folemon! TYLER     [muffled] I return triumphant! SOUND     DOOR OPENS AND QUICKLY SHUTS AGAIN, LOCKS TYLER     And, I have a prize! SOUND     TAP ON SOMETHING METAL SOUND     LIGHT CLICKS ON JUSTIN     What the--? MARK     No, that's good.  If we can get to the authorities, we can prove we saw the damn thing. JUSTIN     You coulda taken a picture - you think they're not going to notice a missing license plate? TYLER     [chuckling, full of himself] I think they'll have other things on their mind. ABBY     Oh, god, what did you do? TYLER     I had my thieves tool handy-- JUSTIN     What? BRIANNA     Pocketknife. TYLER     So I hobbled their horses. ABBY     We need to go now. JUSTIN      You did what? BRIANNA     He let the air out of their tires.  Tyler, sweetie, speak English so I can stop translating. TYLER     Hey, what?  They won't be able to come after us-- ABBY     But they will know someone was spying on their truck.  They might not notice the plate, but--  aagh! TYLER     I was... um... in the zone?  My character would have-- MARK     Understandable.  Let's deal with it.  Were there any other cars out there? TYLER     Not out back.  MARK     Justin? JUSTIN     What? MARK     Any other cars out front? JUSTIN     I didn't notice.  Sorry. MARK     See what happens when you give up gaming?  You lose your edge.  You remember anything Abby? ABBY     Not in the parking lot.  I can take a look. MARK     Hold off.  What do we have for weapons, if it comes to that? JUSTIN     Jack Shit. ABBY     Torchiere for a club.  BRIANNA     No - no heft. ABBY     We can wire the doorknob as a last resort - give someone a bitch of a shock. TYLER     Shh! [They all do.] SOUND     SLIGHT CRUNCH, MIGHT BE FOOT ON GRAVEL MARK     Posts. SOUND     VERY QUIET MOVEMENT ABBY     Uh-uh. BRIANNA     shit. MARK     The front? BRIANNA     Movement. ABBY     Window?  Door?  BRIANNA     Distraction.  [starts moaning, loudly - very sexy] ABBY     Stay out the way of the window.  BRIANNA     Uhh!  [whispered] Watching. [Up] Ohh! TYLER     [joins in] JUSTIN     You won't be able to hear-- ABBY     Neither will they! SOUND     WINDOW SLIDES OPEN WITH A PROTESTING SQUEAL ABBY     Shit.  If we're going out this way, we're doing it sharp and hard. MARK     Out front? TYLER     [still groaning] BRIANNA     Someone's right outside.  Ohh! Just a shadow.  Ohh!  Peeping or about to try something.  Ohh! JUSTIN     This is insane.  This does not happen in real life. MARK     Look, bro- you can play along, and worst that happens is you look like an idiot with the rest of us, or you keep saying it can't be real and maybe take a bullet.  Why not play along? JUSTIN      Shit.  What do you need me to do?  I am not joining that party. [Moans continue intermittently] MARK     Can you see what's at the top of the closet? Usually if there's access to an attic space, that's where it would be. JUSTIN     Sure. MARK     And you're tall enough. JUSTIN     No problem.  [suddenly serious] If this is some psycho situation, you know I won't let anyone get you, right, bro? MARK     Shithead.  Get everyone else out first!  I'm the burden - now get in the damn closet. SOUND     CLOSET DOOR OPENS ABBY     You're not a burden.  MARK     Physically, I'm a drag on the party. ABBY     Mentally, you're the only one keeping us together.  So you can just shut up. MARK     OK, shutting. BRIANNA     He's making a move. MARK     Shit.  SOUND     KNOCK ON THE DOOR BRIANNA     [loud] Ooh!  Oh, shit!  Huh? TYLER     [loud] What the fuck? MARK     Abby?  Where are we? ABBY     Tyler, get behind the door. Ready to slam it if you gotta. TYLER     Check. SOUND     KNOCK AGAIN ABBY     Brianna, the torchiere, stay below the window, trip anyone coming in. BRIANNA     On it. SOUND      KNOCKING INSISTENT ABBY     [trying to make up her mind] Door - wall - wall - door.  Shit! [deep breath, then calling out] What? SOUND     SHIFTING FURNITURE CLARK     You all right in there? ABBY     What? CLARK     I heard a noise. JUSTIN     [whispered] See?  Normal. ABBY     No.  At the very least, he's peeping.  No way he'd hear anything from the office.  [up]  Everything's fine.  We were watching a movie.  MARK     Good one. JUSTIN     Oh, this is idiotic. SOUND     WALKS, UNLOCKS AND FLINGS OPEN DOOR TYLER     Hey! ABBY     No! SOUND     GUNSHOT, BODY DROP JUSTIN     [screams in pain] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS CLARK     [screams in pain] ABBY     Bree, can you get the lock, without getting in front of the door - it's crap, but-- BRIANNA     Done.  Justin - is he--? SOUND     LOCK FUMBLED SHUT JUSTIN     [sounds more annoyed than hurt] I'm shot. ABBY     At least now we know it's not a drill.  SOUND     GUNSHOT, WINDOW SHATTERS ABBY     Down! SOUND     BODIES FALL, WHEELCHAIR RATTLES AND TIPS MARK     Get him.  I'll cover Justin. SOUND     CAUTIOUS STEP ON BROKEN GLASS ABBY     [scream, distracting him] SOUND     FEET TURN ON THE GLASS, GUNSHOT ABBY     Bree! BRIANNA     Yaaaah!  SOUND     THUMP - BODY DROPS CLARK     Yowtch! ABBY     Sit on that bastard.  Tyler, check for backup? SOUND     HEAVY CRUNCH ON GLASS CLARK     [Whimper] TYLER     On it. SOUND     CAR STARTING TYLER     Oh shit - he's in for a surprise.  Front's clear. JUSTIN     You seem to all be ignoring the fact that I've been shot. MARK     I've been applying pressure. JUSTIN     To my mouth. MARK     oh, yeah, I was supposed to be stopping the part that got shot, not the part that shot off, right. ABBY     Brianna, swap - you take a look at Justin, see if we can move him.  I'll hold down the ...fort. TYLER     Fart. [Snickers all around.] CLARK     [Moans, then grunts when Abby turns him over] SOUND     CRACKLE OF GLASS UNDER HIS BODY ABBY     Need something to tie him with.  TYLER     Gotcha.  Thieves tools to the rescue again. SOUND     RIPPING FABRIC - GOES ON FOR A WHILE BRIANNA     Tyler, toss me your flint and steel. SOUND     CATCH, THEN FLASHLIGHT COMES ON BRIANNA     Looks superficial.  I was hoping I knocked you down quickly enough, but I wasn't sure. JUSTIN     I've been shot. BRIANNA     Yes, but not badly.  I'll bandage it in a second. TYLER     Here's your fifty feet of rope... ABBY     Check the back? TYLER     I am fleet enough to be in all places at once. SOUND     ENGINE STOPS TYLER     Oh. ABBY     [grunts as she ties a knot]  OK, shithead.  Talk. CLARK     What? ABBY     Well, we have your gun.  And a pocketknife.  You want to choose which one I do you over with? CLARK     What?  I was just-- ABBY     Shooting in through our door? CLARK     I thought you were - TYLER     Shut up. ABBY     No, let him talk.  I want to hear this. CLARK     Nothing. ABBY     Oh, well.  How many friends you got out there? CLARK     None. ABBY     So that's Christine out back?  Or are you Knight Rider? CLARK     Ow!  No - No!  Stop! JUSTIN     Let me.  I'm the one he shot. CLARK     No!  There's just the two - and B-Ball's shot. ABBY     Anyone else? JUSTIN     Is this what you were doing? CLARK     OWWW!  No, no one! ABBY     What about the real clerk? CLARK     Oh - um - ABBY     Right.  We need to dump this guy somewhere. TYLER     Out back?  ABBY     Chances are, we can get out the front. JUSTIN     Chances?  I don't want-- ABBY     No worries.  Tyler - eyes on the back until I signal, OK? TYLER      Sure thing. BRIANNA     What now? ABBY     We do what we have to do.  Mark, you ready to take a chance? MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE - DOOR OPENS SOUND     WHEELCHAIR BUMPS NOISILY OUT THE DOOR ABBY     No shots.  Good.  We're moving out.  Justin, you're behind me and the chair - get your ass into the car and start it.  We'll pile in, peel out, and worry about belts and seats later. JUSTIN     Are you sure this is safe? ABBY     Nope.  Tyler?  Got the rear? TYLER     Got it. ABBY      Bree, you're first in.  I'll cover you. SOUND     GUN CLICKS READY BRIANNA     Check.  Hold tight! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR GRINDS ALONG THE GROUND TYLER     He's coming!  ABBY     Everyone - Move!  Justin - get it in gear! JUSTIN      Yeah... SOUND     JINGLE OF KEYS, THEY DROP TO THE GROUND JUSTIN     Shit! ABBY     Dammit!  Bree, get your ass to the other side of the car! SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUNNING ON GRAVEL TYLER     I'll-- SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     You'll go.  Move it.  I'll cover you.  [solemn] Don't fumble the keys. TYLER     I won't. SOUND     RUNNING FEET TAKE OFF ACROSS THE GRAVEL, snatch up the keys. SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [Gasps as she shoots]  Damn, that's a kick. SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS ABBY     Yessss! SOUND     ABBY SHOOTS SOUND     SIDE DOOR SLIDES OPEN ABBY     [yelling] Stop shooting at the crip, you scumbag!  You'll be sorry! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR MOVES SLOWLY, ODD FOOTSTEPS AS ABBY CROUCHES BEHIND IT ABBY     Nice to have friends, isn't it? SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [yelling] You really should stop that!  THUG     [evil laugh] ABBY     I told him. TYLER     Come on! ABBY     Bye-bye SOUND     WHEELCHAIR PUSHED, ROLLS SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     GRUNT OF PAIN [CLARK] SOUND     RUNNING FEET SOUND     CAR REVVING SOUND     JUMP SOUND     GUNSHOT, PINGS OFF METAL OF CAR TYLER     [grunting to pull her in] Come on! SOUND     CAR MOVES, FEET DRAG BRIANNA     Here. SOUND     GRAB, DRAG ABBY     [grunting] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     TIRES SPIN IN GRAVEL, CAR ZOOMS OFF ABBY     [sigh] OK, whose lap am I in? MARK     Mine.  Sorry about that. ABBY     Hey, we're all here, no one got shot-- JUSTIN     I did! MARK     And we had to dump my chair... ABBY     No one got killed, and we're back on the road.  I'm gonna feel like shit for the tourney, but who gives a crap?  [giggles] [All join in the hysterical relieved laughter.] MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE ROAD - MORNING NOISES ABBY     [waking up noises, suddenly awake with a gasp] MARK     [whispering]  Shh.  It's ok-- SOUND     RUSTLE AS SHE TRIES TO SIT UP ABBY     Was it - It was a dream? MARK     Hell no.  But once you passed out, we figured you deserved it.  Let you sleep. ABBY     Oh... MARK     Hey Justin?  When's the next bathroom? BRIANNA     And a phone. JUSTIN     Like anyone's gonna believe us.  BRIANNA     You did get shot. TYLER      And I still have my trophy. SOUND     PING AGAINST METAL OF LICENSE PLATE MARK     Shh.  Abby's out again.  ABBY     Hmm?  [rousing herself] Like hell!  Justin?  Crank the music!! END  

From IT Manager to the CIO of a Gigafactory, Listening, Earning and Keeping a Seat at the Table  On this episode, I am joined by Justin Herman, VP and CIO of Panasonic Energy of North America. Starting  out as an IT Manager for Coca-Cola Bottling Co., he worked his through the ranks in manufacturing and eventually moved from South Africa to the United States.   Presently, Justin leads the technology division for Panasonic Energy at their Gigafactory out of Sparks, Nevada.  Key Wins and Takeaways for You:  How to Show Business Partners the True Value of IT   Speed and Agility for Innovation: “The way we innovate within the Gigafactory is unlike anything I have personally seen on the manufacturing side. We've been here for about six years now, so basically, we're a startup and we continue to think as a startup. We're a 100-year-old company that thinks like a startup.”  The Power of a Mission Driven Company: Building a world of cleaner energy.  How to Use Fusion Teams: Building your speed and agility significantly while transforming your innovation.  How to use the Ontological layer of your business coupled with AI and ML to transform your business, processes and speed of innovation.   How to Select the Right Edge, Cloud, Hybrid Cloud Partners for You  How to Achieve and Keep Your Seat at the Table  Justin's Superpower of ‘Active Listening:' “Step back, listen, and understand the pain points. Bring those notes back home in a quiet space and reflect on them.”  The Value of Mentorships   As a CIO and Business IT Leader here are more wins you will get by listening: (3:00) Bill: “What's the change that's happening in manufacturing?”  (3:57) Justin: “Our business leaders have really brought the IT leaders into their decision-making because they understand the role we play and how we can create those efficiencies within multiple facets.”  (4:18) Justin: “As we innovate, and as new technologies come on board, we're able to sit down with our business partners and show true value.”  (6:13) Bill: “What is a Gigafactory?”  (8:19) Justin: “Failure to innovate will put you at a competitive disadvantage.”  (8:22) Bill: How do you do that with a legacy business?”  (8:42) Justin: “We believe the future is in energy and it is our mission to go and change the world through cleaner energy.”  (13:27) Bill: “What does the ontological layer mean regarding ML and AI and Gigafactories?”  (15:52) Bill: “How you went about the journey of finding the right partner?”  (16:55) Justin: “Take a step back, understand your business, the data, and most likely what you're going to end up with is a hybrid model.”  (18:20) Bill: “How do you focus on the 80-20 principle?”  (18:45) Justin: “Having a seat at the table is extremely important.”   (21:08) Bill: “What skills did you come to need to have set in-house?”  (21:42) Justin: “There's always a balance between your FTEs in-house and your managed services that you use externally.”  (24:20) Justin: “Being able to sit and communicate to your business leaders and talk to them in a manner they understand while taking a step back to actively listen.”  (26:48) Bill: “What books have been the biggest impact for you?”  (29:45) Justin: “Never pass up an opportunity to keep quiet.”  (32:18) Justin: “How people are looking at security nowadays…invest in people as a number one firewall.”  (35:39) Justin: “Take it in, learn, listen, because everything you're doing today is going to provide the opportunities that you're going to get tomorrow.”  (36:17) Justin: “We all as leaders have a responsibility to give back. Let's train the leaders of the future and let's help them as well.”  (36:46) Bill: “All leaders need to be looking and surround themselves with the five people that are not necessarily their peers but are in front of them a little bit.”  (37:20) Justin: “As technologists, it is our responsibility to push the envelope, to get a seat at the table with our business partners to help innovation. Let's try to create a cleaner energy environment through technology.”    Resources  Connect with Justin on LinkedIn  “CIO Paradox” by Martha Heller  “Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a World of Digital Giants” by Ray Wang  ChatGPT 

Jason talks to Justin Fitzpatrick, Chief Innovation Officer of Income lab. An online platform that basically lets you do dynamic retirement planning.Episode Highlights01.47: Justin says that they are laser-focused on retirement income planning. He explains that they typically live alongside one of the widely used generalized financial planning systems for when client relationships need to go deep on retirement, whether it's incoming withdrawal, sourcing, tax planning, spending decisions. 07.00: A lot of people were a little dissatisfied with that framing of success and failure. We talked with a lot of advisors who were already talking with clients about adjustments. The problem was they couldn't actually show a client when an adjustment would be made or paint a longer-term picture of what a life might look like if you adjust in this way. So, we really homed in on helping advisors paint that picture, says Justin.13.10: Justin says that retirement is one of the nastiest, hardest problems to deal with. There are so many unknowables and unknowns, so it's for somebody who loves analytics. You can really dive in, but it would be hopeless to try to present that to every client. So, we have really tried hard to listen to our advisors, to listen to our consultants like Derek around you know, how can we help advisors best? Present this in ways to clients where they are going to understand and follow the plan. 14.43: Justin talks about inflation household by household, when they lasted innocent an adjustment. He says that it is great work for a computer but terrible for a human. So that's the kind of thing that we are trying to make this kind of service. Long term advice service really scalable for a practice. 20.03: Jason says if you are fortunate enough that your Monte Carlo score is 100% every time that you go and do it great like you got you tell clients they got next to nothing to worry about. But if the score is less then Income Lab frames the news in more human terms and makes it more digestible. 3 Key PointsJustin talks about the software that they are using and what is their software doing that is different than everybody else?Jason talks about the visualizations that Justin and his team have created around patterns of retirement income and patterns of retirement spending. He found those both insightful and also easy to understand for clients to show that too often the focus is on you know how much his portfolio generate every year. Jason appreciates how good Income Lab's features are and how user friendly they are.Tweetable Quotes"Retirement isn't static, people don't plan and follow it to the letter until they die or run out of money. Clients don't fail in retirement, they adjust." - Justin"There is a lot of fear and anxiety around retirement, but we found that kind of more realistic dynamic planning really improves not just the objective outcomes for people in retirement. That is obviously super important, but also kind of a subjective experiences of clients and retirement." - Justin"There are clients, who say that retirement is dynamic, that adjustment is normal." - Justin Resources MentionedFacebook – Jason Pereira's FacebookLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInWoodgate.com – Sponsor See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Patrick Shares an Open Letter to Catholic Politicians and the Faithful on Worthily Receiving Communion Chris - As a deacon, I was taught we were not supposed to do communion services on the weekdays. Justin - There was a pride month thing for my kids at a public library. What should I do about it? Patrick recommends “Critical Race Theory: What It Is and How to Fight It” Mike – What is the Last Secret of Fatima and do we need to believe in it? Jan - Why did they change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday Armed man arrested near Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh's home Frank - I went to a confirmation ceremony where they changed some words. They said “receive the GIFTS of the Holy Spirit” instead of “receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit” was that okay? Jim - What is your advice on how I can respond to my parish promoting a gay and lesbian event. I would like to read what my church posted on FB of the event, to get your thoughts on it.

Welcome to Who Did We Just Scare?! It's October and Justin and Maya are huge fans of Halloween so the next few episodes are going to be scary or Halloween adjacent! For the first episode of our inaugural Halloween series, we read The Hollow Places by T. Kingfisher. This creepy and appropriately humorous novel sent us on a dreadful journey through a realm we never quite understood (and maybe weren't supposed to).  We were simultaneously delighted and, as you'll hear, regularly horrified. It was awesome! What Did We Just Suggest? Justin: There's a really fun gacha game that came out last year called Ginchin Impact and you should try it! Maya: Daddy Maya is back. This is your reminder to change your sheets. Get new pillows on there. Get in bed with some nice clean sheets tonight.  

Our guest today is Justin Watson, a retired NFL Rams player and a Super Bowl winner. He's also the founder of BLQK coffee, his third business venture. Justin actually only played football for one year in high school, and it took a lot of hard work and perseverance for him to get a full ride scholarship to San Diego State. In his senior year there his coach tried to get him on the San Diego Chargers, but it didn't work out. But Justin didn't let that get him down, he kept working hard and he ended up with the Rams and Super Bowl championship. How Justin went from Super Bowl Champion to Entrepreneur Justin's first introduction to coffee happened while he was playing for the Rams. One of his teammates would bring Justin coffee because he kept falling asleep during the team meetings. And the caffeine definitely helped him stay awake and alert, but the kind of coffee he was drinking was gross--it was overroasted and bitter. Then in 2020 Justin was at a cookout with some friends and because of what happened to George Floyd they were discussing social impact and how they could move the needle forward in marginalized communities. And while they were trying to figure out what they could do, coffee was at the forefront of their minds. Even though the coffee he was drinking at the time wasn't the best, it was something he was drinking every day and something that he was passionate about. And that's how the idea of BLQK coffee came about. At this point Justin had some experience with entrepreneurship in other businesses he had started, and in the other things he had done it was always around something he enjoyed and something that he could get passionate about. Making a difference with coffee The morning after that cookout Justin woke up and assembled a team of people with all different roles and backgrounds--some who could back the business financially, some that could help figure out the coffee roasting element, some that could help them legally start the business, etc...And within 24 hours they all met together. They never really had a formal business plan, it all just came together during this meeting and everyone had their role to play. One of the main goals with BLQK coffee is to help kids get the education they deserve in areas where they may not get that opportunity otherwise. Justin shares, “For me, that's really my number one goal is how can I help? How can I help kids in the community? How can I move the needle? And there are a lot of highly intelligent, you know, black and brown kids out there that can really make a difference in the world. And if I can do that one cup at a time, and allow them to go to a school they wouldn't be able to afford or have the tools like to be able to get the computers and the tools they need in order to succeed. I think we can do it through pouring our profits back into these communities.”   Key lessons entrepreneurs can learn from Justin There are some great lessons that any entrepreneur can learn from Justin's journey, even if you aren't a Super Bowl Champion or in the business of coffee. Who you surround yourself with is important--The only way Justin was able to get his business up and running so quickly was because he knew so many people in different fields and professions that could help him along the way. Connections are so important and they can be a huge lifeline in entrepreneurship. You never know how someone you meet today could possibly help you in the future. You have to be willing to take calculated risks--Nothing in life is guaranteed and you will never know if a business idea will work or not unless you try. Yes, you need to be smart about things, but sometimes you need to take that leap of faith. Move quickly--Once you find something that you are passionate about, something that you really want to do, you have to move quickly. So many entrepreneurs spend months trying to perfect a business plan and all of the details, but you can easily get bogged down in that and lose your momentum. There is something to be said about just starting, even if it is not perfect. Anything is possible, even if you aren't a Super Bowl Champion--You may not have all of the connections Justin has or a ton of money to put into a new business, but everyone has resources. Use what you have. And your resources may even be things you haven't thought of yet, so take a deep look at what you have around you. What tools do you have, who do you know, what skills can you use to build the business, etc… Justin's advice for young entrepreneurs For anyone out there who is just starting out or who is early in their entrepreneurship journey Justin points to a poem he grew up looking at in his mother's house. It's called Desiderata and you can see the full text here. But the first few lines say, “Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.” He says if you have integrity, honesty, and diligence you can't lose. If you are doing something that you enjoy and something that you are passionate about and if you are going about it honestly, you will find success. We frequently get asked things like: What do we use for courses and email marketing? What platform do we use to find people to join our team? What tools do we use for project and task management? Where do we host and publish podcasts and how do we transcribe them? And More.  Well, we just put together the Entrepreneurs' Online Business Toolkit PDF which will give you a complete breakdown of the tools we use to run our 7-figure businesses and how we use them. Click here to grab a copy, it will be an invaluable resource in your entrepreneurial journey! Connect with us: Website: https://www.byobpodcast.com/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/byobpodcasting  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thebyobpodcast  Twitter: https://twitter.com/thebyobpodcast  Newsletter: http://www.byobpodcast.com/newsletter 

This is a fun one! This week, we gleefully devoured Get a Life, Chloe Brown by Talia Hibbert and couldn't get enough! This hilarious rom-com ticked all of our boxes. It was incredibly funny, wonderfully steamy, and it made Justin tear up a little bit because he is a big, old softy. This book was just a pure delight. What Did We Just Suggest?! Maya: Drink water. It's good for you. Set your goal higher than you need it so you still end up drinking more water than you expected. Justin: "There is more to life than increasing its speed" - Gandhi. Don't rush through life. Enjoy your indeterminate amount of time.

Justin Seibert is President at Direct Online Marketing, an agency that focuses on and excels at – direct online marketing – to move clients' ROIs in a positive direction. In this interview, Justin describes the process of developing strategies to drive quality traffic to its clients, converting that traffic into leads, and sending leads through to generate sales. Justin says the process of vetting potential clients is “very long.” Some of what the agency looks for to get a good fit: Medium-sized businesses provide the greatest opportunity to make an impact. Smaller businesses will not be able to get benefits commensurate with what it will cost them to work with DOM. In the case of larger businesses, the agency will not be able to move the needle as much. Highly niched businesses, either the lead brand or the challenger brand within a specific niche. These businesses are not “household names” unless the household is one already familiar with that particular industry.  Almost any industry. The agency works heavily with a number of SaaS (Software as a Service) companies, higher education, and ecommerce retail and less so with everything else – from “manufacturing to finance to entertainment.” In 2001, Justin started his career in Los Angeles, working for a company in the financial industry. The company had been highly successful with radio marketing but was looking for the next thing . . . and assigned Justin the task of figuring out how to use the internet to generate quality leads. His office was right next to the sales floor, so he got fast feedback on how good a job he was doing.  In spring of 2006, Justin moved into his basement and blogged at least five days a week, trying to get the word out about digital marketing. By October, he hired his first part-time employee. Justin says he always liked the idea of hiring people . . . because of the positive impact it would make on those individuals, their families, and on the community at large. But, planning and timing the growth of a company, especially when there is no outside funding, is a challenge. Justin explains, There are two classifications: 1) the revenue producers (sales, marketing, and 2) the internal administrative staff. He now has the confidence to hire for those internal functions when he perceives it is best for the company.  For “client-facing” employees, Justin looks at the current book of business and the pipeline to decide which functions to hire and when. The problem is in the timing. If he hires ahead of need, he may not have the cash flow to support those new hires. If he hires when everyone is swamped, the workload increases even more because the new employee needs to be trained. Cultural fit is paramount – but not intransigent. The agency's employees are virtual due to Covid, the culture has changed, and, in the middle of all of this, Justin has been hiring. Two things Justin notes as important when starting an agency: 1) Know what your process looks like. (He cites Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.”) and 2) Get some sales training early on. Sales plus process is key. Justin can be reached on his agency's website at: directom.com or on LinkedIn at Justin Seibert (S-E-I-B-E-R-T). Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Justin Seibert, President at Direct Online Marketing based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Justin. JUSTIN: Thanks for having me, Rob. Excited to be here. ROB: Excited to have you here. The name of your agency is tremendously straightforward, but tell us how that points you, points all of us, to your superpower and what you do best as an agency.  JUSTIN: I love it. I realized going into this that I'm really horrible at picking out names for agencies, but the reason that we chose it was I believe in being very straightforward. I just want people to know what we're good at doing. What I imagined this agency and what my strengths were and what I wanted to be able to offer to clients is about results, and not about being clever, not about being funny or winning awards. It was about how we could actually move ROI in a positive direction for them? So “Direct” was really important to be part of the name, and then “Online Marketing” just being what we specialize in. If you fast forward to today, what we do really, really well is strategizing on how to drive quality traffic to our clients and then help them convert that traffic into leads that become sales. I hate saying this because it sounds so cliched, but clients see us as trusted partners, and that's so important in this industry, as you're aware, just because there's so much snake oil out there. We want to be able to be that beacon for people that they can say, “Yes, we know that our agency has us covered, and they're acting as an extension of our team.” ROB: Makes perfect sense. One challenge that can happen that I've seen when you're setting that expectation with a client who is coming to you because they expect results – that can mean different things to you and to a client unless you align on expectations. How do you set that initial engagement and the expectation that all the leads are not going to show up tomorrow, but they also shouldn't be waiting a year for something to happen? JUSTIN: I think it's really important to get on the same page up front. I speak with a lot of people, our team speaks with even more people, and we turn down partnerships all the time just because we don't feel it's a good fit. We have a very long process, longer than some people would like. A lot of times it's “Hey, can't you just send us a price list or something like that?”, and we're like, “How can we do that when we don't understand what your goals are yet?” So, we spend a lot of time to understand what their needs are, who they are, to then evaluate to see if we even believe we're a good fit. Assuming that they still think it's a match, then we continue down that process. And a lot of times, depending on the particular service we're talking about, we are even sending them a projection range of what we think is realistic to see if that aligns. Sometimes it doesn't, so they choose not to go with us; sometimes it doesn't, and they rethink if this is even the right strategy for them. Sometimes it doesn't align and they say, “Do we really need to rethink what our expectations are?” Because when we haven't done that, Rob, it's exactly what you're talking about where we get into it – we know from doing this all the time and knowing the industry and knowing what is reasonable that we may be hitting something really well, but it's not what their expectations are. So we really try to get that up front as much as possible. ROB: Totally makes sense. Even within this performance and driving leads market, there's such a wide range of customers. You can look at anything from the medical profession and elective medical procedures to local services, plumbers and whatnot, all the way through to Software as a Service and almost bleeding into potentially high-end commerce. What sweet spots do you see for Direct Online Marketing? Is there a typical client that you find yourself engaged with? JUSTIN: There is a typical client in terms of some respects. Number one, it's a medium size business. A smaller size business, probably for the price of doing business with us, it's not going to drive the value that they need. If it's a larger business, we're not moving the needle as much. We're not being as impactful as we'd like to be. So, it's that medium size business, it tends to be a good fit. The more niched they are, the better. We typically tend to deal with clients that are the leader or the challenger brand within a particular niche, where if you talk to somebody on the street who isn't familiar with that industry, they have no idea who the client is, but if they're familiar with that group, they go, “Oh yeah, of course I know who that is.” We've worked with some really big brands, but that's not common for us. What's common is that market leader or the challenger in a medium size business. When you're talking industry, we're all over the map. We purposefully made that decision when I started the agency that we weren't going to specialize in one particular area. Again, there's some common traits, but in terms of industry we do a lot with SaaS, Software as a Service. We do a lot in higher education. We do a strong bit in ecommerce retail. But outside of those areas, anything from manufacturing to finance to entertainment, all the way down the line. We've worked in dozens and dozens of different industries. ROB: When you say higher education, I can't help but obsess in a little bit on that. I would imagine at the onset of this pandemic and the first year of virtual for many of them, there's been tactical adjustments. But when they're looking ahead to 2021, what are you looking at for the education world, and strategically how they are setting themselves up to recruit that next class in such a pool of uncertainty? JUSTIN: That's where the partnership really comes in. I love this question, by the way. We have to understand, how are they adjusting? Depending on what they're looking to do and depending on where they are geographically has a big impact on what their approach is going to look like. I'm thinking through one client right now. They're taking students in dorms this year. They are, for the most part, not doing anything but singles, and there's more spacing. So, they had to find more housing and had to get really creative with what they were going to do there. Or they had to turn those students into virtual, or they had to turn them away. Fortunately, they were able to find some solutions for that. Understanding what ground rules we have to work with is really important to understand that. I think the bigger thing within the industry is – and this has been coming for a little while now – “Am I getting the value out of the dollars I'm paying for higher education, particularly if I'm taking out student loans, which could be $60,000 per year?” It's really imperative on the schools to be able to show the value they're getting and what they're able to do to help students post-graduation. I think that's what the universities and the colleges are trying to convey right now, and we're trying to do in terms of helping more. ROB: It sounds like a good challenge. But to your point, this is a strategic challenge that has been underway for a while, and like so many things, it has been accelerated during this time. That makes so much sense. If I believe your LinkedIn a little bit, it seems like you have been in this industry, in this business, for a little bit. Rewind us back to how Direct Online Marketing came to pass and what made you decide to do this instead of going to work for somebody else. JUSTIN: I started getting my feet wet and really learning everything when I was living in Los Angeles. A company in the financial industry had hired me. This was back in 2001, very much the Wild, Wild West days still of digital. I was there for a few months, and they said, “We've been really, really successful in, of all things, long-form radio marketing. For us to grow, we need another marketing leg. We think it's the internet. Go figure it out.” I had no background in this whatsoever. This was brand new to me, like it was brand new to most people. What was really awesome – I had so much latitude to try things. If you remember this, for people that know the search engine days, this was back when it was goto.com. It was the first year of Google AdWords at the time. So, everything was brand spanking new. But what was so instructional for me was that I sat right next to the sales floor. This was all about generating quality leads. If I was sending them bad leads – I'm looking at my numbers thinking, “Hey, I'm doing an awesome job,” but if they were getting bad leads, not only was I not producing and wasting their time, but then they would start to look at my leads as a waste of their time and not put the effort they needed to into those conversations. So really getting that feedback from them on what I could do to keep the numbers up but also improve the quality of leads – and then really seeing the fruits of my labor, where if you looked at the sales board, I could see by source what was going in there. If we fast forward 4-½ years later, when I moved away from Los Angeles for family reasons, when I started with them, they were a $25 million a year company total in revenue. When I left in 2006, they were doing $35 million a year just attributable to paid search. I don't say that to brag. They had a tremendous, tremendous management team, they had an awesome sales force, it was a good market. But I bring that up because if you still remember back to 2006, as crazy as it seems today, people still weren't sure if Google and digital marketing was really a thing or if it was something that was just a fad, the way that they saw the bubble burst back in '99, 2000, 2001.  I had that knowledge that this was a real thing, and logically it makes sense. This is direct mail on steroids. I couldn't have been any luckier to have that as my background for when I moved and then looked at my next opportunity. ROB: Once you decided to go in on building this business, did you have any partners early on? Or was it just you and a card table in a closet coffee shop early on? What did it look like? JUSTIN: Absolutely. It was me in my basement, trying to keep the kids and the dogs upstairs so I could do some work and go out there and hustle. I used to blog every day, literally at least five days a week. I had to do something to get us out there and to get known a little bit and build that up. That was in I guess April/May of 2006. By October, I hired my first employee that was part-time at the time, and got some really horrible office space, but it was the only one that was correctly priced. So, it worked out for my needs. Then went off to the races from there. ROB: Excellent. Maybe from Day 1 you had a pretty good degree of confidence from your experience. At what point did it become evident that you were going to be doing this for a while and with more people involved? JUSTIN: That's a really good question. I think there's two ways to approach it. Some of this is more apparent today with the advent of the solopreneur. I don't think that model was quite as prevalent back then. But I could do that and be a contractor, or I could hire other people. One's not better than the other; it's just what fits you. I like the idea of hiring people for a variety of reasons. One, when you look back at what my dream was, I really take a lot of pride in being able to employ people and to help them make their livelihoods and to add to the local community and to help support their families. I feel very blessed to be able to play some small part in those things. So that was part of it. But part of it, too, was there are so many things in life that I am horrible at, or at least not very good at, that by being able to bring in people that are better in those areas than me and to be able to concentrate on the one or two things that I'm okay at was helpful. And then the final thing was, do I ever want to be able to take a vacation or a sick day? Of course, as an entrepreneur, you don't at the beginning. But do I want to be able to do those at some point? I really can't if I'm just doing it on my own, or it's a harder process. So, to build out a team – we have a tremendous one these days, and really, I've been lucky through the years with having really great people – that really was the right model for me and for DOM. ROB: Along that journey, have there been any pivotal hires that you realize in hindsight really helped you scale beyond yourself? JUSTIN: Yeah, there's been a few things that have happened. One of the challenges with growing the business, especially if you're not taking outside money, is you're in this position of “Do I hire now or do I wait?” If you're basically operating off of cash, you have to wait until you have the business to be there, so then you scramble to fill that position, get there, and then go on to the next spot. As you get bigger, then you're putting real strains on your people that are already working to the bone as much as they can, and now they have to become less productive because they're going to train somebody up and then move on from there It's been a constant battle for us. It's been getting better now that we get larger and that we have a little bit more flexibility with the things that we do. But I guess for agency or just business owners in general, what I'd share is that there are stages of the business. There are certain things, like getting our operations in order, that I couldn't really have somebody dedicated to for a long time. That's the type of thing where they're not being “productive,” even though they're incredibly important to being productive for the agency and for our clients and everything else. Everybody had to take their own pieces of that. I would say we've had a few different instances where it was great to be able to get to the next step. At the beginning of this year, we changed our model up once again and broke out a new department. So we're always looking at those areas. But I've been really, really lucky to have so many tremendous people that work here because without them, none of the success is possible. ROB: That's excellent. You mentioned outside funding. Very, very few agencies are able to raise outside funding, and arguably it doesn't really make sense to, either, in most contexts. You mentioned within that cash flow and the challenge of stressing the team, when to hire. You have some people on the team now; how have you resolved the decision of when it's time to add people or when it's time to stand pat with the team that you have? JUSTIN: If you look historically, sometimes you have your hand forced and sometimes you have that situation for yourself. When I had a little less gray hair than I do today, I remember we were a smaller company – I would guess we were maybe eight people, nine people at the time. I don't remember the exact number, but I had two key people that were managers of the company. I got notice from the one woman in the afternoon, let's say on a Thursday, and I go to sit to talk with the other one Friday morning, and she's like, “Well, I have more bad news to give you.” So, within 12 hours, I had all of my management team give notice. That was a scary proposition, and we had to learn from that and what we could do, but we got through it. I would say, as tremendous as those people are, we're better off today because of the learning from that. We're at a point now, though, that there's two classifications. There's the people that are in some way revenue producers from the standpoint of they're in sales, in marketing, or there's some other need that's not a client-producing function. Maybe a manager of a department, something along those lines. Where I've gotten now, I have enough flexibility that when I've identified that, I'm no longer scared. I just say, “I need it. This is what's best for the company. I'm going to go do it.” On the client execution side of things, that very much is more a function of, what does our book of business look like today? What does our pipeline look like? And then based on that, knowing which functions we need to hire when. ROB: You mentioned having two managers leave quickly – all of your managers, in fact. JUSTIN: Yeah. ROB: What do you do in that scenario? You can elevate internal staff, you can try and make a quick hire – although sometimes that doesn't work out so well – you can just eat the pain for a while and figure it out yourself. What path through did you take, and what would you do differently now, maybe? JUSTIN: I want to think through what I would do differently now, but let me answer the first part of that, which is a combination of factors. One, leaning heavily on some outside resources, from mentors to HR teams to other people that could give advice and help us get through it. One is putting my head down in the sand and just getting through it until we can get through those different pieces. I think you always have to take a step back and evaluate, why are you there? What do you need to do differently to avoid these issues in the future? Part of it can be through hires. But really, that was a turning point, along with going through a program with Goldman Sachs and Babsen College called the 10,000 Small Businesses. I don't want to derail, but I came to this epiphany all around the same time of how important culture was. And shame on me for not understanding that before. I had kind of taken the path of “I don't want to force culture down people's throats. I really care about these people in a very deep way, but I don't want them to feel like work is their life. I want them to have a work-life balance. So, if they don't want to share things with me or the office, I don't want to force that on them.” I didn't understand how much people were looking for that culture and how important that was. When we look at the things that led to our success and all of our growth in the last 6 years, fixing the culture to now where we have a really strong culture – and it makes hiring easier, it makes retention easier, it makes our outcome better – has been such a huge part of what we do. ROB: I definitely understand that desire not to overwork people. But also, I think people want to come to work. They want to like where they work. They want to like the people they work with. It sounds like that's something you've been able to form over time. What aspects of culture have shifted during this season of people largely being virtual, and what things have stayed the same, but maybe in different ways you didn't quite expect originally? JUSTIN: I was really worried about that. I think there were a couple things that helped us out. One is the fact that we have such a great team already, and we have people that are bought in and interested. The other thing – we added a lot more communication. Everybody was already used to Zoom; we'd been using that with our clients forever, so those things were pretty easy. And we're a digital marketing agency. We're not a manufacturer. So, switching to home wasn't as challenging as it would be for other people. But I think one of the things that helped us out, based on some comments and some feedback I received from the team – I think they were really appreciative of the fact that they weren't getting furloughed, they weren't getting their salaries reduced, and in fact they actually saw that we were hiring. We were growing and adding more people during a very turbulent time when everybody's world was turned upside down. I think some of those things played in our favor and didn't really have anything to do with me figuring things out. But the big one was really just increased communication. I will tell you one of my big worries still is I believe there's benefit to people being in the same office and bumping into each other and overhearing conversations, and that's gone right now, for the most part. Our offices are open; some people are choosing to come in. We've left it to them for now to decide whether they feel comfortable with that or not. We have a few people coming in. Most are staying home. But I look forward to getting to a point when we can continue to have some of those in-person conversations. ROB: Absolutely. Likewise. I definitely miss that camaraderie and the knowing each other in that casual way that comes from being in the office. You mentioned a little bit the lessons learned from that management shakeup that you had, but what are some other things as you reflect on your time running Direct Online Marketing that you might consider doing a little bit differently if you were starting from zero? JUSTIN: Looking back, January 1, I always say “I can't believe how stupid I was last year.” I am constantly on the move for how I can get a little bit better and how I can learn a little bit more. The one that I'll say from an agency – and then I'll give another one that I talk about typically with entrepreneurs – from an agency perspective, I really didn't get how important operations was, which I sort of touched on before. It's “We're marketers. We're so smart. We just figure this stuff out.” That's a really good recipe for letting things fall through the cracks and not being consistent. I would just say understanding what that process is going to look like – start out with it from the beginning. If you're not one of those people, like me, that is – I'm not the person that likes setting up processes. I can do it, but it's not what I'm naturally attuned to. But spend the time and do that. Very much the Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.” That's the process part of that. The other one that I talk about frequently is I wish I would have done sales training earlier. What people don't realize when they come from another office, they worked for someone else, to then starting their own endeavors – whether you like it or not, you're a salesperson now. You are out there building the business. Sales has such a dirty connotation in our world. People don't like sales. They think of used car sales. But sales is really, ideally, just providing value and providing aid to somebody and being able to match that. We don't do hard sales. If you're a good fit, we'd love to talk with you. If you're not, good luck. I hope you find somebody that's a better fit for you and hope you are going to be there. The process of sales training is just learning some techniques that work for you to make sure that you're aligning with the person, you're understanding what their challenges are and how you might be able to help. The business could've grown much faster had I done sales training earlier. ROB: Was there any particular sales training that you went through that you found effective, or is it really almost anything is better than almost nothing? JUSTIN: I would say the latter. I've gone through a few different ones. I've had my team go through some different ones, and I think you pick the pieces of things that you like out there. I think Sandler is a pretty common one that I got a lot out of, that my team has gotten a lot out of. But if you look at it, I think there's an emphasis of finding the pain, and to me it has more of a negative connotation when you think about it that way. It's true you have to have the person understand what their challenges are and how you can help them, but I'm more of a positive person. I try to be. So I'd rather orient myself around what's my solution to help them. That's why I say, again, I think it's great – some people are diehard advocates. It's a wonderful system. For me, I take about 95% of it and just tweak a few things. ROB: Sandler does come up a lot. I think what you've hinted at – a lot of marketers find themselves much more relational sellers rather than the process and pain. It can feel a little bit more formulaic than maybe an entrepreneurial marketer. JUSTIN: Sorry to interrupt, but on that front, I think the formulaic part is really important because there's certain things you need to do. My sales process has become much longer than many other agencies out there, but I've found that it's really important for me to do because when I skip those steps, I'm not getting the right solution that the person needs or we're not aligning on it. So, I do think it's really important to develop your formula, whatever it is, and practice it enough that it's natural. I understand why people don't like that idea, but I think that if you're doing those things, it still can really help. ROB: Absolutely, yeah. Feeling natural versus unnatural is perhaps one of the bigger obstacles that people do have. Justin, when people want to find you and they want to find Direct Online Marketing, where should they go to track you down? JUSTIN: Easiest thing is to go to our website, directom.com. I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most active on social media. If you look me up, it's pretty simple. I'm sure if they're listening to this, they'll see the spelling of my name. It's S-E-I-B-E-R-T. I would love to connect with people there. ROB: Sounds great. Justin, congratulations on the journey so far and the success so far and, heck, even staying in business through one and now arguably two recessions. That alone is something, but to do that with a team around you is quite a thing, and to go through so many transitions, starting from the world of Google ads being surprising to people to having to master so many more channels just to serve a customer well. Congratulations on everything so far, Justin. Thank you for sharing your story. JUSTIN: Rob, thank you so much. ROB: Be well. Thanks. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

On today's episode, we speak with Justin Christianson, the Co-Founder and President of Conversion Fanatics. Conversion Fanatics helps businesses find additional revenue through conversion optimization strategies. Tune in to hear us discuss exactly what conversion optimization is and Justin's specific approach to helping companies increase their revenue.   Topics: Justin's work history. Explaining “conversion optimization”. Justin's favorite tools. Why directing traffic back to your homepage can make a huge difference. At what point the strategy goes beyond the customer's website. The importance of incremental adjustments. Keeping it simple. What is helping him through 2020.   Resources: Conversion Fanatics Justin's Social Media Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast. As you know, we are online business brokers, a crew that has been there, done that. We help people sell their SaaS, content, FBA, e-commerce businesses and everybody's got a crazy amount of experience. Everybody's built, bought, and sold their own online business. Brad bootstrapped a company from 10 employees to 129 with three men ownership. He also acquired 26 companies or content sites in a six-year period and sold them to a private equity firm. Jason raised 10 million dollars in venture capital money and built a company. Amanda launched an affiliate business as a hobby, and it became the top four in affiliate in four months. Brian founded the world's first internet-based due diligence firm. There's a whole other crew; the rest of the team they've all got a ton of experience like that and now they're all advisors, brokers here in the Quiet Light team. I'm probably the least impressive of the crew. However, in the last eight years, I've sold close to 100 million in e-commerce transactions, probably at an average of about 1.1, 1.2 million dollars at a time. And we help first, that's the most important thing. We take that experience that we have and we help people around us, whether you are buyers that are listening or sellers. And we bring people on to the podcast like Justin Christianson so that he can help as well. Justin, from Conversion Fanatics and I'm stumbling on that a little bit. Justin, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Justin: Hey, thanks for having me. Joe: One of the things that we don't do is read scripts as you can tell by stuttering through that but we also don't give fancy backgrounds on people. We love to hear it from them; what their story is and what their background is so could you introduce yourself to the audience here? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the digital marketing online world; I think this is year 19 for me. I started in my early 20s. I kind of moved up the ranks through affiliate marketing and lead generation and then became partners on a company and we exploded that company. I was actually the number one affiliate for it. We exploded it and grew it like… Joe: Just for the record, three ahead of Amanda. There's no question. She was four you were number one. Okay, I'm busting on Amanda right now, even though she doesn't listen to our own podcast. Continue. Justin: Yeah, we grew it like 500% in one year. We grew it almost 150 the next year. I sold it back to my business partners about; I guess it's been about 10 years, which is my time to leave. I started a private consultancy. I'm kind of teaching the implementation and optimization side of things. And then basically out of demand, I partnered up with my longtime friend Manish, who is my now business partner, and we founded what became Conversion Fanatics about six and a half years ago. Since then I've helped several hundred businesses. I think we calculated somewhere close to an additional hundred million in additional revenue for them through our conversion optimization strategies. Joe: Incredible. Justin: We just keep working every single day to be a little bit better and I'm fortunate enough to help some of the top companies in the world. Joe: And I know a few of them. I know a few of the folks that you worked with through Blue Ribbon Mastermind, our friend Ezra Firestone, and they speak very highly of you. And you actually helped Mark here at Quiet Light with his business Catholic Singles. Why don't you tell us though; I know the definition of it and I'm going to give a short story here afterwards but what is conversion optimization? Justin: Conversion optimization is really the understanding; well, I'm going to back up because conversion optimization, when you first say that, people often say, well, it's split testing. Well, split testing is just the vehicle that we use to prove or disprove whether we're right or not. But conversion optimization in and of itself is understanding the behaviors of the visitor; understanding their wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and where the key friction points are in an online journey and then doing what we can to answer the question why certain things are happening in that journey and then we split test to make sure we're right or not. So really, it just comes down to reading data and then executing on the ideas of why we think that data is telling us what it's telling us. Joe: And it's not just split testing, written content, or split testing images or videos or emails. It's a combination of all of the above, I would think. Justin: Yeah, we focus primarily on-site or on the ad side, but we're primarily; I would say 95% of our business is on-site, user experience, user interface kind of optimization. So, what happens on the website after they come from that ad and what can we do to make that experience better for those visitors and help those brands excel which will also lift up many other metrics in the business as well. Joe: So it's really perfect for the content, e-commerce owner, SaaS owner, and maybe the FBA owners that are trying to expand beyond Amazon and get some traction in their Shopify store or whatever store they might be using. Justin: Yeah. Joe: One of the things I have to say, I didn't understand what split testing was back in the day. I sold my e-commerce site through Quiet Light back in 2010. Mark, actually, Jason here was my broker at the time. I knew everything. I understood exactly what my customer wanted more than they did and kept doing these campaigns and putting them out there and putting out there, putting it out there. Finally, my web developer said, Joe, don't be an ass. Try split testing. I'm like, but this is right. And he's like, let's test it. Without a doubt every new campaign that I tested that I knew which one was going to win, I was dead wrong. And it would result in like 3% to 5% conversion rate differences and at a $200 or $300 transaction, that's a tremendous difference, isn't it? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we'll see; I'm looking at a test right now, it's like a 15% swing. Joe: Holy cow. Justin: I've got one running right now that's almost a triple-digit swing in terms of percentage gain. Joe: When you look at a client that let's say they're selling a physical product, are you looking first at their website to try to help speed up the website and improve it? What approach do you take with new clients? And I know they're all different, but give me an example of one. Justin: Well, really, I take the same approach with all of them, because my philosophy on that is at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. It doesn't matter what we're selling, they've all got wants, needs, buying habits, and decisions and pains and pleasure points and all of those things that go into that. So, I just try to understand and put myself in the shoes of that visitor. I look at the data and say okay, I'll look at their analytics and say, well, they're female aged 35 to 44, primarily they're shopping on mobile, they're falling off on this part of the website. And then I just put myself in the journey like what's stopping; what are the 10 things on this page that could potentially stop a visitor from going through the next step? What isn't clear? What can I add or remove to alleviate those friction points? And really what I'm trying to understand is what on that page holds the most weight in the eyes of the visitors? Because at the end of the day, you said you were proven wrong on a bunch of times. You were assuming something was going to happen. I've ran thousands of marketing split tests. I've strived for just pulling myself out of the equation in terms of my bias; my understanding, and I try to just really put myself in the head of the visitors. And once I do that, then it becomes much more apparent of what I need to test and where. And then as soon as I figure out what holds the most weight, I can then exploit that throughout the rest of the website. If they respond to social proof or they respond more to the benefits of the product or they need more trust aspect in the brand or they need to read more about the product or whatever, I try to figure that out. It could be copy-based. It could be image-based. It could be something as simple as moving a button off on a page. But I incrementally test those things to figure out what holds the most weight and once I figure that out then we just move throughout the site areas on the website and just keep going to try to continually evolve and scale and grow that business. Joe: Going back to the beginning, you said, you see when they drop off in their journey at a certain point. If they're looking at a product and reading an article and at some point, they drop off instead of actually placing an order, what tools or software do you utilize to see that path that the customer takes or potential customer takes to then drop off? It seems to me like that would be hard to access, that information. Justin: No, actually is not. It's one simple report in Google Analytics. Joe: I've been using Google Analytics for; how long have I been self-employed? More than a decade or more like 15 years, I don't know; something like that. Too long to the point where I still don't know how to do stuff like that. Is that training that Google provides you inside of Analytics and workshops or things of that nature or you've just learned it over the years? Justin: Well, it's literally a default report that I go to. It's under Conversions and you have to have e-commerce enabled. So it's under Conversions and then E-commerce and then Shopping Behavior. Literally, it's just a bar graph and it shows you the drop off points in that process and I just know how to read that and then you can dig in deeper and deeper and deeper from there. But generally, I'll get the understanding of it. So, I'll look at the landing page view and it's basically two reports. I'll look at the landing page behavioral report, so I'll see which landing page; their first visit interaction, what that conversion rate is. The Home Page is almost in the top three, almost always, even if you're driving traffic to a separate page or a landing page and the Home Page is generally underutilized by 90% of the businesses out there. Joe: What does it mean underutilized? Justin: They're not focusing on it. They don't care about it. They're focused on landing pages and product pages and checkout flow but yet I've seen campaigns double their return on ad spend by just turning some traffic to their Home Page versus a specific product page. But I look at the top-performing landing pages and then I look at that shopping behavior report and then I'll see okay, we've got this many people that are going on the Home Page, this many people have product views, this many people viewed the cart, this many people went to check out, this many people completed transactions. And usually, there's an outlier in that report. So, if it's on the product page like the product view one, I'll see okay they're in the product view and that means they're viewing a product page, but they're not adding to cart. And then I just go ask a few more questions of where you're driving the majority of your traffic, are you driving traffic directly to that product page or are you driving it to your home page or collections or whatever and then that'll give me a better understanding what those visitors are telling me. Joe: Okay, I got it. And at what point do you go beyond the website itself? Well, actually, let me back up, first and foremost. I talked to thousands of entrepreneurs over the years. Everybody listening to this podcast has a website. Please install Google Analytics because you're not going to be able to do any of this stuff that Justin's talking about. And just to dispel a myth that's out there, Justin, is Google stealing information from the people that are installing software on the website, or are they really just giving you the tools to help improve your business and make more money? Justin: I guess that's up for debate with who you ask but every single website… Joe: I don't want to debate that, by the way. Justin: No, I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Every website out there has it, I mean, has some form of Analytics involved. Joe: Yeah, I just sold a number of them where people have said they straight up don't use Google Analytics and they use some other unknown software or stat tracking data that doesn't do what Google does. So, please everybody install that. When it comes to AB split testing. So, you're figuring these things out. You get to the point where you decide you want to move a button-up or the order button up on a page. Do you just go ahead and do that based off of your experience or do you split test that always? Justin: Always split test it. I am literally proven wrong almost daily. Joe: Okay, it's not just me then. Justin: And we launch 50 plus new split tests a week for our clients. Joe: 50 split tests a week. Okay, always split test regardless. Here's a question for you. This might be tough to answer. When it comes to deciding the winner in a split test, my developer years ago gave me stats and he said, well, you've got to get to this number of total views and then statistically it's got to get here in order to make it a valid split test when you determine a winner. Is that still the case or just kind of do you wing it? Justin: Well, a little bit of both. I look at several different factors. I'll look at statistical confidence, which is one. You have to be statistically valid. You have to have a big enough sample size. You have to have a big enough separation. But I also look at the trend in the data. I look at is it flip-flopping back and forth or is it staying pretty steady as an improvement or a loss? How big of a loss is it out of the gate? And then I look kind of anything north of 25 conversions per variation then I'll start looking at the data. I always run it for at least a calendar week if it's showing promise or sometimes longer. Sometimes a test will run for a month. But there are also the times where you can run a test for six months and run millions of visitors through it and it'll never reach statistical confidence one way or another so you have to know when to cut it. Because if it's null or if it's flat or if it's bouncing back and forth, it's never going to reach confidence because there's not an algorithm on the planet that can factor that fluctuation. Joe: Confidence being the winner, one that's going to produce the end result that you want. Justin: Yes. Joe: What do you do at that point? Do you just flip a coin and decide whoever; if I'm the owner of the website and I like the images on one better than the other and if it's… Justin: So, if I don't know if it's a winner not, I'll generally call it a null result and I'll stick with the original. Unless it's not hurting anything and it's actually making it a better experience for the visitors. Meaning it's cleaning up a page or it's adding a function that might be beneficial that I can use to build upon. Or maybe if it's stripping down a page, then I can go in and then test adding some different types of elements back to the page and it just gives me some more online real estate to work with. So, it's kind of just sort of a guess at that point but I usually have an end goal in mind and I never want to push something that I'm not validating that it's an improvement. And I also don't focus just solely on conversion rate either. I focus on the bigger picture on engagement revenue per visitor, average order value, views on check out; all of those other secondary metrics just to make sure we're not; because you can improve conversion rate but make a lot less money or really dramatically decrease your revenue per visitor. So we just take a very holistic approach to the whole thing and I'm in it to win so I'm not going to push stuff just for the sake of pushing stuff. Joe: Yeah, so number one people have to have Google Analytics installed, figure out how to run the reports, and then always do split testing regardless. What are some of the; I mean you've been doing this for a long time, what are some of the other than I think you said which was people are not paying enough attention to their homepage? What other low hanging fruit is there that folks can do when they look at their own website where you see most common issues, where they can take a look on their own and try to fix things up? Justin: Well, there's a bunch of them, but generally visitors, we kind of live in this speed and this trap, I call it, of growth hacking and a lot of people just go in and say, oh, I think this looks better, let's go ahead and do it or let's change this or I saw so-and-so had it on their website can we do it on my website? And I've never seen that really go well. And also, I think that people think bigger is better so they feel like they need to completely redesign a page or add these big changes to make a big impact and the opposite is actually true. You need to incrementally adjust things to better understand those behaviors. The majority of people that I see are trying to cram too much stuff into a very small area. They're trying to over app their way to better conversions. I've seen stores with 70 plus applications and plugins and all of the stuff installed and they don't necessarily do the right things; adding more urgency and more timers and more pop-ups and things to your website isn't going to help you for a long term sustainable growth. But the glaring one that I see is people do not lead from a place of benefit to the visitors. They're screaming how awesome they are as a company instead of listening to the visitors and what their product is actually going to do for them. And I've said this in my entire career, it's kind of copywriting 101, it's you lead with benefits. So, benefit bullet statements. I go back to that all the time and then I use the features of the product to support those benefits. I've said this many, many times is I've got 16 gigabytes of RAM in my computer, which is great. It's a feature, but it's not a benefit. What does that do for me by having 16 gigabytes of RAM; a faster processing speed, faster video rendering, all of those things because nobody wants the feature. They just want what it's going to actually do for them. And a lot of companies just simply don't do it. They don't pay attention to it and I see it every single week on many, many occasions. Joe: I used to write ad copy for radio direct response stuff and it was 60 seconds and 18 of those 60 seconds were the call to action, which was the phone number; the 800 number at four or five times. We used to be able to get the features and benefits in 42 seconds; simple, clean, quick, clear. It's funny now we've got so much information and so many endless pages of websites that we feel like we do need to just jam more in and do more. Mike Jackness has been a regular guest on the show. He runs Ecom Crew and Ecom Crew Premium and he had a brand called Color It that we sold for him. And one of the things that Mike did very, very well is exactly what you're talking about when he reached out to customers regarding Color It. He had one of the biggest Klaviyo campaigns. He talked about it a lot on the show and that was giving them some benefit with every email that went out; helping them, teaching them, giving them some benefit, not hitting them up with a sales promotion every time. It's a help first mentality and that generally comes back to you. I think that's great. It's sometimes simple to do on a website, and I would think that sometimes it's a little more complex. Are you finding getting a little more complex with video for instance? We had Judson Morgan from Butter.la on talking about the increase in conversions from a static image to a video. Are you finding similar findings or do you split test those types of things as well? Justin: Yeah, we always split test it. I've seen the video go 50% improvement to a 50% decrease and everywhere in between. It just depends on the brand. I've got an auto detailing client that has all the gear for auto detailing and they're very video-focused so moving a video into the main spot on a product page in the carousel would prove really effective for them whereas other companies showcasing a shirt, for example, isn't necessarily as effective as a product that needs to be demonstrated so it's really a case by case basis. And if there's a video available, we'll try to leverage it as much as possible but I have literally seen swings go both ways. Joe: Have you been in a situation where you have been testing video and you're testing that less is more where it's maybe user-generated content versus high-end production and one outperforms the other consistently; probably not consistently, yeah? Justin: Not consistently. But I would say I do this with imagery too, is I kind of lean towards more of the user-generated real type side of things; the shaky camera, the ums and ahs because I think more people are relatable to that or they can relate to that a little bit easier. I've got a client right now that's got a product and all of their imagery looks like straight out of an Instagram model's website. Even their user-generated content is Instagram filtered and perfect and looks like they used a super high-end camera and I'm like, do you have anything real? Like some real, hey, this is awesome look at this. He's like, yeah, I've got all sorts of that. I'm like, well, let's test that because your visitors are literally saying we don't know if these are actually as good; the pictures are great, but we don't know if they're actually as good so we've got to build that trust that the product is great. And this is a site that sells 2,000 plus orders a day so they're doing volume, but their visitors are still screaming we don't know if we can trust this even though they've got 500,000 plus customers. So we're just trying to leverage that as much as we possibly can to showcase in different ways like, hey, this is real and it's not… Joe: Have you had the chance to split test that yet? Justin: We're in the process of gathering all the images. I'm literally going through this this week. Joe: And is that your role within the company or do you have other folks that help you? Justin: Well, I've got a team. Joe: Well getting down to the point where you're picking out those images, or do you let the company owner or your client pick out the images that you'd be choosing? Justin: A little of both, we're very collaborative. But I've got a big team of smart people; designers and developers and strategists and analysts and all of that stuff. But I'm very much involved and my business partner and I are in the overarching strategy. Some clients I'm more in the weeds with than others. This one I just happened to be going back and forth with because he was trying to push for one thing and I'm like, well, your visitors aren't saying they want that so I kind of had to interject and say, here's what we're seeing from that standpoint. Joe: And they're literally saying and you're; and I'm saying you and I know it's your team, but I'm saying it's so that the audience can go and do this themselves as well. You are literally going on to the reviews, to the Instagram comments and things of that nature, and seeing what the visitors are actually saying, or are these e-mails into the company that tips you? Justin: No, survey. This one is actually like just a type form survey saying here's the; we took the top three questions, like what questions do you have that we didn't answer? I do this with exit polling a lot too so almost all of our clients we've set up an exit poll. So catch the people that are leaving and just ask them what problem did we solve for you today or what question weren't we able to answer and give them that open-ended kind of outlet to tell us where we're falling short. And you'll see a trend very quickly of what that data is telling you. In this case… Joe: So somebody when somebody leaves the site without placing an order, if that's the objective, you've got the ability to have them fill out an exit poll form? Justin: Essentially, yes, just a one question kind of survey. Joe: Okay, that's fascinating. Imagine that, asking them why they didn't order and having them tell you and having you be able to fix that problem. What you're doing is not actually that complicated it's just hard work. Justin: Right. Joe: I guess you got to take the time in the detail to get to it, and it's funny, I find a lot of things in this e-commerce or online world that we live in not very complicated. It's common sense. Sometimes we just have to be told what we already know. Justin: Yeah, common sense is kind of lacking in a lot of cases these days it seems like. I mean, even in my career of almost 20 years, nothing's changed. Just the mediums have changed. So that's really it. Joe: True. Justin: People come to me and they're like, oh, hey, what's your framework and what fancy tools are you using and I'm like, I'm simple. I want to go down to the bare bones minimum possible to get the job done. I don't want to over-automate and over-analyze. I just want the visitors to tell me what it is and optimization in that. I mean, there's a science to it, obviously, but an understanding and an experience definitely helps but it isn't rocket science. I mean it's ask the right questions and my question just happens to be why. Why are they clicking on the button or why are they leaving that page or why are they watching the video or aren't they watching the video, why are they dropping off at that point in the video? It's just questioning everything and then looking for all the ways we can possibly test to improve that. Joe: It's a lot of whys in there and none of that becauses come from the founder of the company or the CMO or something like that. They come from the customer, which is smart. It's the mistake I made years ago when I thought I knew everything. I was dead wrong. It sounds like you are too most of the time when you're doing your split testing all week. So, listen to the customer, obviously, but you've got to get that information to the customer and ask them. Justin: Yeah, and I think as business owners, and it's why I hire coaches. It's why I hire people to get an outside, unbiased perspective because I see so many business owners often look at their business or even marketing executives for large, large corporations, they're in there every single day looking at the data, looking at the website, looking at the marketing message that they just get numb to it and blind to it. And sometimes the smallest little change and the smallest interaction or they're overlooking just some small lever they need to pull that's going to dramatically improve their marketing performance. And I fortunately and unfortunately see it all the time. Joe: I'm going to go on a short tangent here. You said you hire coaches. You've been self-employed for two decades in the online space. What kind of coach would somebody with your experience be utilized? What kind of coaches do you hire for yourself? Justin: So I started out; I'm a direct response marketer. I'm a B2C guy that for some reason started an agency. I have no idea how to run an agency. I never did when we started it so I've hired several; I've hired sales coaches, I've hired other business development coaches, I've hired lead generation coaches, I'm in a Mastermind right now for agency owners; all very top level just because there's a lot of stuff that I don't know from the inner workings of the process. I'm a forever student and I think I can learn how to do something and I live kind of by the motto that every day I need to be a little bit better than I was yesterday even if it's just one small incremental improvement. I'm a split test guy so I have to strive for that improvement all the time. And sometimes I have the wrong questions or I have the questions or I'm not asking the right questions on my own business and it's even helped me even through all of the stuff that's going on this year. There was a time where we had a lot of unknowns, even back in March and if we don't change this stuff we're going to be in freak out mode if we don't fix some stuff. So, I needed to lean on my coach and my crew and my circle of influence on the agency side to kind of help us navigate. Joe: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I ask the question because you obviously have done some things right over the last couple of decades and some of the audience members might just be leaving the corporate world and coming into this online world that we live in and one on one coaching is the equivalent of one on one therapy for people that need help but it's for you and your business. In many ways, it improves you as an individual as well as a business person and as an individual. We have David Wood on the podcast; he's a business coach, just talking about the benefits of asking certain types of questions and trying to make incremental growth as you've talked about here. And then the Mastermind groups like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, like Ecom Crew premium, like eCommerceFuel, like Rhodium Weekend, those are all group therapy, but it's group enhancement. Everybody shares their secrets with the other members of the team so everybody can grow and learn together. So I think it's brilliant, very, very smart things to do. Justin: There is a lot of; if you get in a room with people that are on that level or even above you and I don't always join into our monthly or biweekly phone calls on our Mastermind and all of the stuff and I don't always need help. I don't always have something to share but when I do, they're there. And I think there's a lot to be said about that, too. It's just having kind of that fallback and kind of a sounding board when you do have an idea or you're falling short in certain areas. Joe: I couldn't agree more. Justin, I appreciate it. Where do people go to learn about your business Conversion Fanatics; is it just simply www.ConversionFanatics.com? Justin: Yeah, www.ConversionFanatics.com. You can find all information about us. I've got a best-selling book that's also available on Amazon. If you go over there, find it. It has the same name, Conversion Fanatic. Joe: Awesome. Justin: And I'm all over social media so you can find me at www.onespotsocial.com/JustinChristianson and you can find links there; basically everything. Joe: Fantastic. Justin, I appreciate your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Justin: Thanks for having me.

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed the Coronavirus, Covid-19, the different tools that can be used for remote work and the security issues that businesses are facing during these quarantines. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Jack Unlike stay quarantined for a couple of weeks, what do they say? Justin 12 days, 14 days come self-quarantine, Justin something like that. Yeah. And I think the worry is Jack that's going to be impactful on the economy. Justin Yeah, I think that Yeah. I don't think anybody's panicking, per se and nobody's telling anybody Jack I know some who are. Justin Now I don't think that's the case. At least not in this country in other countries. You see it because it's more widespread in other countries. But the issue is, if the same number of people got the Covid-19 has got the flu, then you would see, you know, what was three and a half percent death rate right now that wouldn't be the same. If more people got it, but you're looking at, you know, way more people dying. If this spread is real. Jack I'm not saying it's not there. It's just fear is not always rational. And there's a lot of it, for example, you know, like if and I'm using an example from my past years of media, I used to be asked by people, why does the media cover a homicide so much when it only impacts the victim and you know, a handful of people? It's because it's dramatic. So, if you had a couple of like, terrible crimes in your town, what do people do? They lock their doors. They take precautions. They react, even if the odds of it happening to them are very few. So, I'm saying I, you know, it's like any fear factor people get they get nervous. Sure. That's what's going to impact a lot in this economy. People are going to postpone things change things to try and not get this and maybe the only way to limit the spread, right. Justin There's so much that's still unknown about it. I think one of the fears that I'm not going to get into it, but the handling of it hasn't been excellent so far. Hopefully, that changes. I think those factors in as well. Yeah, Jack Yeah, well, some people, of course. Then other people going on to live their life without any deviation because I tend to think that typically in this time of year, we are pretty well trained, or should be on how not to get The flu. Regular influenza, you know, if you go to the gym, if you go to the pub, wash your hands, if you get sick, do something about it fairly quickly. Don't try and spread it. These are all things that help but believe it or not, some people forget all right. We're going to keep it posted. Chuck's not a great start to start the mock markets. We'll come back with him in a moment, Craig Peterson, on the Tech Talk side of things, Craig. Good morning to you, sir. How are you? Craig Hey, good morning. You know, there's a lot of talk going on right now about working from home. I've got a few tips for people. I'll be doing a Facebook Live or two this week, trying to run through some of these things because there's so much to consider when it comes to working at home. First off, you're probably going to want to use some teleconferencing platform. There are many of them out there, but there's only one that's secure. And believe it or not, we have some serious issues when it comes to remote workers in most businesses. We will see because of this Major increases in business attacks. So, number one, WebEx, which is made by Cisco. It is a company that I deal with all the time we use it, and we sell it. WebEx made by Cisco is by far the most secure teleconferencing platform. They have WebEx teams that let you work together as teams kind of like Slack, but much more secure. It's available for free right now, because of the Coronavirus. So have a look at that over WebEx. VPNs are something that many businesses are all of a sudden started using. Then there are these screen sharing desk sharing and Remote Desktop Software people are going to use so they can hop on their computer at work, a great idea. However, it's going to be a terrible problem for businesses because business computers are usually secure. They're typically up to date with their networks are protected. When you are putting a VPN in, you're allowing unprotected computers in the home environment or at the coffee shop, who knows where now you're letting them direct access to your company's networks, and it's going to cause nightmares. There is a lot to know there's a lot to learn. I'm going to do a couple of free things this week, and I am not selling a darn thing. I will be helping businesses understand more about this. If you are interested you can email me at Craig Peterson dot com if you want to hop on to one or more of those live calls, I'll do it this week. Even emails are going to be an issue because people are going to be sending them using mobile devices. This, Jack, this is going to be nuts from a security standpoint. Jack Well, I'm sure, and there'll be people that always take advantage of people in a tough situation and the other. Still, the other thing too technology will help minimize some of this quarantine cost to the economy because people can, in some cases, work from home. Many many cases today, but you know physical construction, remodeling, hospitality, healthcare, there are other things you can do telemedicine is going to help a lot. But sometimes you need to, and if you're a healthcare worker, you need to go to the hospital to work. If you're a work in the restaurant industry, you need to make the food, you need to go clean something if you're so you, technology will help here, but it won't solve everything. But Thank you, Craig. Craig Most businesses are just not ready for it yet, Jack. Take care, Jack. Jack Craig Peterson with the Tech Talk side of things. You know, many businesses are putting plans together. What happens if one employee tests positive and has to go home? What if they worked in an area near 20 other employees. Do you begin to see multiple effects? Unknown Speaker 5:46 All right. I wish there were better news in the economy. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

We finally made it to the Atlas! Look out white maps, here we come!Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Hey there. Welcome to Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host, Justin A K Tags.Tyler: And I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days. Well, we made it Number five. Yeah. Good. Good. We're doing the best of episodes, Ari.Justin: Yeah, where we're at, like, take 41. RoughlyTyler: way. Our we've been We've been giggling trying to start this podcast for, like, the last hour.Justin: You know, actually, you saying that makes me want to just quickly jumped the gun a little bit because I noticed, if you're one of your notes was just how incredible your giggle is.Tyler: So I obviously listen to the podcast. Once you've finished editing them, Justin does everything. By the way, I just sit here and giggle and make fun of him. But after he's edited and what we get to listen to it, I like to listen to it to see what it, of course, sounds, likes weak and make it better make the next episode better and better and constructive criticism I have noticed now that I really ate my giggle. I sound so lame. Gable. It sounds totally fine in my head. I feel like a manly man when I giggle in my head. But my goodness, when I giggle when I hear from the outside, it's brutal.Justin: So that just shows how impressive it is that for four episodes I've been editing your giggle just to increase the highs. I'm just kidding. I should think this is going to be, like, really high.Tyler: No, this episode I'm gonna Ha, ha.Justin: That is hilarious. Yes, I am. Anyway, that made me think of it. You said giggle. It's your fault. Uh, all right, So tell me anyway, tell me about your build. You've been doing it. I mean, do refresher on your building where you're at right now. Let's let's hear it.Tyler: All right. Um, I finally had some time to gets maps, which was nice. I finished last few acts quite quickly. I like those last acts because there's very few side quest you need to do for extra passive points and finally got endgame. Tried to do it with my leveling gear, which wasn't special. It's not leveling gears, just whatever dropped. So I was pretty bad on resist. Tried to do. I know 5 to 10 maps with it, and, uh, just before the podcast started. I finally capped my resists, but damage is good and survivability would be good. I'm really liking it. I don't know what people are complaining about a lot of fun. Single target damage isn't great, but the game's a lot harder to so anyway,Justin: where you build when you say people complaining, Are you referring to just in general or specifically to your build?Tyler: Sorry specifically for that guide? I'm referring to the which building I do, and I'm doing my sion build. It's Ah, deadeye and inquisitor. It's elemental hit with attached to What's it called? It's still the list of support the ballistic totem support, Lester told him, Supports really weak. You basically need four totems, even though it only gives you three. You have to go find 1/4 told him just to make it worthwhile. But I'm quite liking it. And because you're constantly moving and laying the totems with elemental hit and with crit and with all the extra ailments that air happening freezing and shocking, it's I I really like it so far. I mean, I have a four, a blue four link, and, uh, I've been fine, so I'm excited to get a a nice five link.Justin: Your survivability, though, seems to be at least reasonable. So far, you're reallyTyler: very easy. It was really easy while levelling, of course, ramps up a bit once you get into the atlas. But, um, I had 19% fire resist, and I think 55 or 60 Ah, lightning resist. And there's a lot more chaos damage and oh, my goodness. I redid the graveyard. I did the new graveyard boss fight, and that's cool. I don't know if that was in our notes somewhere, so I don't want to jump ahead.Justin: I don't think I've actually done graveyard yet.Tyler: Oh, the chaos. I just love how viable chaos is. I feel like it's syndicate, but without needing the crazy nurse that syndicate needed for a month straight, it's There's so much more chaos, damage, um, the new I don't really want to spoil it, but for the podcast tried Well, for you, the graveyard boss battle that used to just be you'd go into that crypt, right? And then to be that I mean, it's changed a couple of times now. I think it's a change it again and Now it's kind of like an open crypt area where you fight one of the skeleton bosses that existed in campaign. But then, once you beat that one whole wave of enemies come. And then a second skeleton boss comes because I think you can do that. Different ones, Yes, and I love it. There's shocking to let crazy. They're throwing chaos, damage at you from from range. I really liked it and especially because it's what. But it dropped for me. I think it was my fifth map. I don't know if it's Tier 12 or three. I forget, but it was when you're not really set with your resists. That's a punishing boss battle, and I really liked it. But back to the build, I just finished capping my resists and survivability was pretty easy before, so it's gonna be a lot better now.Justin: Nice and damage with elemental hit and ballisticTyler: clearing is no problem. Single target damage requires some patients, Um, but not only for the impatient, I guess you could say, um, I don't find that for me. I'm used to a slower paced game, and I don't find it tedious by any means. umJustin: Well, you actually, because under a single target apartment, do you think you'll do anything to change single target? Like, do you have any plans for?Tyler: Yeah, right now I'm using a blue Oh, right. Four link. Yeah. I'm using a blue for link right now. So it all it does, it's giving me 7 18% attack speed and 24% elemental damage. So I knew the second I even even if I had a white five link or a nice yellow four link, I don't think it would be a problem at all.Justin: Nice. Yes. So, me, I am doing spectral throw, still sticking with it, and, uh, I'm into maps. I've gotten past all of the, you know, the levelling, all that good stuff. Ah, it's been decent. It's solar cell. Found for me is a whole new breed of playing this game. I'm just so used to, ah, hit endgame by some of the gear that I want to at least make the maps a little easier to clear. Make sure I've got ah, you know, the right resists. But the build that I'm just playing around with is working. Fine. Now that I've got my gem slots set up. I'm still also only running off of a four link chest, so that'll make a big difference once I can do that. And I'm swapping GMP for ah, slower projectile still, which I probably I probably will do through the whole thing anyway. So it's it's been not bad. It's a little a little slow, uh, had huge hiccups as I was leveling and I'm realizing I think I made that. We made the comment that we were chatting that weapons hold. My gosh, Did they ever make such a big difference? Like,Tyler: Oh, and I love it. I love it.Justin: Yeah, it's It's nice. It's just it's I feel different. It's weird that that's different. I mean, you've always needed to upgrade weapons, obviously toe to scale your damage, but I don't know if it's just spectral throw. I don't know if it's if there was a specific change that's made that different, but I have found that without that, that constant upgrade to weapons which, by the way, upgrading Klaus Sucks is brutal. To find Klaus that have reasonable roles, especially cousin went straight physical, it's really hard to find replacement clause Once I've got something that's rolled plus physical and plus percentage physical, I can't It's really, really hard to find something that will improve that.Tyler: Catch him Well, I mean, I know your pain. I'm still using my blue four links. So, um, but it's I just love. I think it has everything to do with just the changes that they made to defense in the how bosses they're scale. All the extra armor and chaos and elemental resists. And for everyone, I just I just love that update where they made them harder to kill, but they don't hit harder. I mean, some of the boss mechanics had changed dramatically, which makes them a lot harder to, But it just makes weapons that much more important. And I love it because for melee, they're much more dependent on weapons than any other type of, um, build. I would say, like if you're doing spells, you can get away with not needing a fantastic wander staff, right? Or don't whatever also you're using. But when you're doing spells, you don't need something epic. It's just great to have opinions. You don't need anything, but of course, it's just mid. Maxine if you want to get a convicting one with sweet rolls Malays desperate for a good melee weapon. And I love that right after they have a melee league, they come out, they buff stuff to make melee weapons Much more important, I think it's really cool. I love how they did it.Justin: It is, Yeah, I think if I had maybe thought a little differently into ah, maybe it may be a different skill, or I don't know if I could have incorporated different types of weapons, but I just I feel like for a solo cell found I made it harder than I needed to because I've just I've struggled to roll clause that are good to use,Tyler: are you? Claw OnlyJustin: while I'm spect into a lot of the claw nodes just for the the engine for the crit. ButTyler: that's that's one of those things than that, I guess you kind of cornered yourself into then.Justin: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I'm now, uh, into maps. I've gotten it. Did the atlas. I mean, maze will just jump a little bit too. That is kind of cool. I've again, I'm not super far into it of ah, unlocked out Zana. So she's back. I've had these weird encounters with the the new the new bosses, like have just spawned And I can remember the name of the one that I've seen, but he kind of just spawned in, yelled at me and then took off and it just got the notification to keep following him. And I'mTyler: like, Yeah, I had that and I couldn't see what was happening. The map was still busy and I heard some dialogue. I didn't really know what it was, and yeah, that's to read it at the same time.Justin: So I'm I've noticed that as I've done more maps in that quadrant, um, he's popped up a few times. I haven't gotten much further into how that whole system works, but what I will say is, on top of the hole, okay? Trying to figure out weapons as I'm going along it further to what you were talking about with your build. My God resists so resist to me has always they've always been king. You get to endgame, you get resists. You just have to. I have never felt Maur than this league like yes, you Absolutely have to capture resists. It is especially getting into these these new bosses. Yeah, I don't know if he just happens to be lightning based or why everything is lightning. But after he popped up the bosses, or just like random rare Tze and just mobs would all of a sudden spawned with additional lightning damage, they would put these things on the ground. They were shooting. It was killing me so quickly and I think was in 40 48% or so, which normally obviously that's not great. But normally in a tear to map, I wouldn't be Oh, you know, I really need to be in 75. I just be working to get gear. And as I captured that cap it, I had no choice but to actually start adjusting my gear and what it made a huge difference, which I'm not had a lead like that before. And I started thinking because the first it pissed me off first thing I was like Oh my God, so tired of dying. And then, as I started to, you know, just the gear and especially with SSF, it makes it a little bit harder. But the the ability to now have to actually plan around capping my resists walk, maintaining life and damage. It's actually made it kind of fun. Yeah, it really has.Tyler: Yeah, I'm really a one thing. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. And one thing that I think I already mentioned it. But just in case I didn't turn now, only thought it. It used to be that you could just ignore chaos. Resist for so many of your bills until syndicate came along, you could ignore your your chaos resistant. You could just do your three elements. Now I feel with all the different roles they've done, they've added a lot of chaos, damage to some big, big boss battles and a lot of the metamorphose stuff. Specifically, it's almost like you can't get away. You It's always gonna have some sort of chaos. A we it's really made it so that you need all four. Captain. Oh, I used to just do the three. I'm sure many died. Many did. But I'm really finding the value and crafting some of those chaos rules just to at least get to the baseline of 0%. I think I saw this in a lot of chaos. Damage?Justin: Yeah, I have to. I don't know if I found it as, um it's definitely beneficial. I'm not at minus 60. I think I'm at 35 or something. So it's not. It's not zero, but it's definitely better than nothing but it to me. He was not as bad as the I don't know Lightning. I couldn't believe the difference from 48 to 75 obviously that's always gonna be a huge difference. It's just never been a huge difference. A tear to Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I've always felt like Okay, I'm getting into, like, six. You're seven. You know, it's time to actually start really paying attention to everything. Yeah, this is like it's cool. It's really cool, because that one of the complaints I've had in the past is just end Game now had become stale, so I think it's aTyler: sexy independence all the way through. Maybe we won't think that in the fifth league of this end game, butJustin: yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how the endgame all works yet, so it's kind of hard to say, but I am enjoying The metamorphose stuff is sometimes enjoyable. I've started to get some of the boss ones the ones that you actually collect. I haven't Not enough to actually do much with them. Ah, some of them have been reasonable. But even still, some of them are very, very difficult, Which is good. I don't mind. I don't mind not being able to kill a boss like a meta morph boss. Yet if I made it too strong and I'm like, Oh, God, this I just can't do it. Yeah, it sucks for me. I gotta learn to the next one.Tyler: I've heard a lot of people. Well, whether it's within my guides air on Reddit complained that it's too difficult And then there's some people of the mentality that a lake just turn. Just turn the difficulty down like you're not forced to do the hardest one. And if your build can't do it, don't do it on. And then there's other people that think. I've heard the complaints that they should be able to do the hardest ones, and I don't like that I like the you know, it should be terrifying to do the hardest. Have you got all the body parts in the map? It should be terrifying. You should expect it to be a long time or you should I don't know. You know what I mean? Totally beat Easy for you shouldn't expect to do it with mediocre everything.Justin: Yeah, I totally agree to me. It goes back to bay two days and like the early release days where there were some builds just could not do it, you just couldn't. And it wasn't It wasn't something broken in the game. It was something you did just didn't work. And you either adjusted or I mean, then it was start over. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've been I've been relatively pleased so far. I mean, I'm pretty early into the tears of the palace, but I found the difficulty to be decent. Uh, I mean, for me, for path of Exile, it's rewarding enough. Antemortem is adding the ability to get a lot of cool stuff that you couldn't get in other ways before you had to do specific league things to do it. So that's kind of fun.Tyler: Yeah, it is. It's It's really cool. I think they've done a very good job. I know that there's glitches for people that are a lot farther into endgame. Unlike us, we're still in our white maps. But, um, I think in terms of stability, this was really, really good. I just, um I forget where this isn't a list. So cut me off. If I'm too far ahead of myself. I just really wish that what they did was introduce this next league. But I love the new endgame, and I'm really excited about it. But to introduce a brand new endgame and then go on a skeleton crew for Christmas, it doesn't make sense to me.Justin: Yeah, but I think that's also for you. Somewhat related to other things. Not just specifically the league. The big leaguesTyler: challenges, but they're they're running into they. Some of the stuff that I'm watching this one is a little bit farther down, but the guy that I watch relax r o l a X on mixer. His issues are very different than mine. I'm waiting for cause I play standard. I'm waiting for the map tab to get fixed, but that's not gonna happen till after Christmas, because they have one person that works on the map tapping there on vacation. So but roll axes. His issue is he's getting to engage with every single character that he makes. He's already on. His fourth character is crushing Endgame, and his issue is that there's a glitch with Final Boss. And I've seen lots of stuff in the patch notes about the final Boss is and how they're glitches and they're not dropping this or they're not. You know, this, that another thing and he can'tJustin: What's the alternative? I mean, you're suggesting that they push of a game changing league to a ah, further release so that they don't have it come over Christmas,Tyler: right? I don't think any time you're gonna have a skeleton crew for two weeks, even if it's just one week, I really especially because it's going to be what, a three week point of the league right? Like this came out December 9. I think it was to have Christmas two and 1/2 3 weeks later, after you've completely revamped the entire endgame, I don't know.Justin: Yeah, I don't know what to me. It's hard, though, because if they come up with a league that barely has any changes just because they're gonna have a skeleton crew. That league ends up being garbage. It's people. People may not play it. I mean, the thing is, if they go, if they go skeleton crew, Firth, whatever it is, 2 to 3. I don't even think it's three weeks, two weeks, three weeks. Someone like that. Two weeks to, um, that's better to me than three months of, Ah garbage league.Tyler: Well, but imagine Metamor for the old Atlas. To me,Justin: that's fantastic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't knowTyler: how everything Woods with how it all works, right, Like, it's been a long time since I've worked in the video game industry, and when I did, I wasn't at the top of the food chain making the decisions with all the decisions that the higher ups need to make. But it's just for me. It's every Christmas. I really don't get to play until the new year, when the league comes out and then it's gonna be the Christmas League, as I call it as a standard player. I don't get to play until January, so it kind of sucks. ButJustin: I don't see the alternative to that, though, and I think that I mean, I I can see where you're talking about in the fact that it's ah ah, huge game changing league and it comes out right before they. I don't know how often else in the year they even have skeleton crews. I imagine it's not very often, but ah, I would rather I would rather it affect the I mean, people may really, really be angry about the fact that I say it or that they may disagree with me in some sense. But it's affecting the people who have a lot of time and have power rushed to end game, which is awesome, like That's cool that they have done it. But I imagine that that portion of the player base is small compared to the players who are still working their way up through be Atlas and you're never going to make it perfect. Old big release almost ever has been Yeah, so there's going to be something that goes wrong to me. At least there's nothing game breaking and even the ones I've read night for league players and but I don't care about standard, but I mean, even on center,Tyler: You're in the minority there.Justin: No, I'm definitely. I definitely know for sure. Not on that. Most of them. I might be in the minority that when I'm definitely not. But even your issue, it's still very specific, too. A mechanic not working. Not all mechanics not working now. Granted, it's a pretty I read that they, like, literally turned it off, right, Like they just turned off the convert button. I thought I heard. Yeah, yeah,Tyler: yeah, they did. It turned off, and it's true. I could play it. I could spend 15 bucks and get a new map stash tab.Justin: No, I don't think you should. And I agree, like frustration that comes from that. But I don't think you'll ever have a league release that's going to be perfect off the bat, even 2 to 3 weeks, and hopefully it's as close as possible. But I read the complaints. I've read the comments that they've made. They're not. It works. There's just some stuff. That's your rape. It's kind of frustrating for such is, but it's not broken. I would rather like I said, I would rather have maybe 2 to 3 weeks of Okay, this is stupid. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and then they're coming back, and they're gonna fix it. Uh, and they still have staff working. It's not like a game. Breaking bugs is just going to go on because they want to enjoy Christmas. God forbid. But yet, uh, if if that means that, okay, I gotta wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to fix something that is really just irritating me versus having to deal with three months of a league that I found boring because they wanted to make sure not to get people upset. I feel like that's maybe worse. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't mind it, but I'm not there, so it's not affecting me.Tyler: Yeah, way need to. I need to be more familiar with the endgame bugs that are happening to. But you've almost converted me almost. You may have let them have Christmas tie. Just let them have Christmas am. I am. But have Christmas with the old atlas, all right? Just bored again. So remember last episode we're talking about holy and showing up. I was all mystified. I thought it was fantastic that when you click on a crafting recipe, yeah, she just appears Yes, you know, she'd smoke bombs like a ninja turtle on, comes in and says her little piece and then goes away. I thought that was a really cool little thing. Um, so I hear you've been a little disappointed with the frequency of it. Now,Justin: is it just our last time that we talked about with that when this you first brought this up? Yeah, I think it was just last episode. Yes, So it was. It must have been, cause that's when I finally got some free time to play and every freaking recipe I would zoom in my damn camera, click it. And there were times I think I was even streaming at one point so you could watch, and I clicked it, and I I message you and said you're you're freaking liar. She didn't jump up and you said, Oh, it's because you were standing right in front of it. I was like, Oh, okay, maybe it wasTyler: always your fault.Justin: Now I will just say I was about to go into it. I was in a trial when I got that one. So I went to the next one and it actually kind of irritated me a little bit because the next one I found was within just the regular story of the game. So I moved off to the side, clicked it, and sure enough, she popped up. I was like, God damn it, Tyler was right. Yeah, And she did, like, smokes in. And she says, Ah, I think she said the same line every time. Something about this is very interesting. And then she smoke clouds out. But it's only the more I did it, the more I was watching it. She she doesn't so nothing related to a lab. Nothing related to trials will ever show up. Nothing related to delve will ever show up. And once you beat the game, that's it. She's done. She doesn't show up in maps. WhyTyler: do itjust campaign? I was really surprised. That's dumb. Yeah, whyJustin: I don't understand is that there's no Maybe somebody knows some weirdo lower to the game that somehow stopped actin that she couldn't help you with the recipesTyler: anymore. Well, maybe maybe they'll add it more if it's a new thing that we just have If it's new right and we didn't miss it before, maybe it's just they're adding it in and then they'll be able to add it to more. As, uh, maybe you just would have added, you know, to my previous complaint about having a new atlas. Maybe it just would've added more possible glitches when they were going on. No, no. HowJustin: hard could it have been? Toe added toe labs to delve, too. Maps everywhere.Tyler: Every little thing you add. Construe something elseJustin: does nothing. She's she literally does. She is. She's not even an actual like thing that interferes with you. You can walk right through her. She does nothing. It's like she's not there. It's dumb. Just put it into all of them. I irritated me more so than anything that you told me about it, because I remember it took me. It took me so much longer to get through some of the acts because I would run into them and be like, Okay, maybe, Maybe if I stand a little bit over here. No. Yeah. She doesn't show up in those places through.Tyler: Well, I hate you more than you hate me for Helena, Because you're playing solo Cell found this time for the first time in forever. And you couldn't give me the ridiculous Val City way point.Justin: You know it was you this times you I found it almost right away.Tyler: Oh, I don't even want to hear your solo. No. Found luck with a locked. Why did he lock? Hold your hand and show, YouJustin: know, but But something pointed the way I could tell. I could sense it. It was those fireflies they were leading.Tyler: Yeah, fireflies that don't stack in your inventory. Um,Justin: crabby old man. Yeah, I found I found that when I found thanks for not beingTyler: able to give you $2 city waypoint. I appreciate it.Justin: You have to work for things. That's how you enjoy the gameTyler: Can. The Bell City is really enjoyable.Justin: It's annoying because it not only is it probably one of the most frustrating spots to find it for, but then also, the next level that you load into is the freaking longest set of map or area. I think in the whole game that hope Rose is to get down to the spider. Oh, my God, It's exhausting. it's worse than Vow. Pyramid Way Worse, I don't know why. Maybe it's God's going down instead of up.Tyler: Well, it's twice as long. Yeah, well, Pyramid, I think it's three levels and then you're actually at the top. Whereas when you're going down to the spider, it's three levels and then you're just another second section, and then it's another three levels. If I'm correct, it's I don't mind that part, though. That one's relatively easy to navigate. And there's not a lot of wrong turns, not a fan. I don't mind the maps that get me, Um, but that's just because of my concussion. Symptoms and stuff are the maps with trees and the trees that go in front of the screen. Um, what would be one deal? I don't know howJustin: Jungle is brutal. I actually noticed that just today I was thinking to myself, Okay, we're talking about that whole technology of the stuff is cutting. You go through jungle. The trees do not fade it all, they say, right up in your face through the hole. I was like, Why would they not have these ones fade out? I don't know if it's just because it's older, and maybe it's more difficult for them to do that. But it is really weird to me that jungle, the jungle map Jungle Valley. The maps do not fade or sorry, the trees don't fade. Yeah, it's kind of weird.Tyler: Yeah. And you, old atlas. I would never, ever shaped the ones that had those tall trees that will go in front of the camera. It was just too too nauseated for me.Justin: Would it change it if if it had that effect, where they they weren't really? I mean, that kind of see through,Tyler: um Well, there's that. What was it? Is it Lava lake map that had, um I don't know if they're the same. A CZ they used to be. But the lab a lake when they had caught Eva was a tear 14 or 15 last week. That had some trees. Cem, Cem. Nice apple trees. ErJustin: over there. Just little ones rightTyler: there. Well, they were. They were big, They didn't go all the way up across the screen, and it would have that technology where it would fade so you could see yourself on the other side. That still gets me a little bit, but it's nowhere near as bad as something that's crossing my eyes really fast. Like car driving through and, you know, shaded woods Interest. Bang, bang, bang. Just shade hitting. You left, right and center.Justin: Yeah, it's funny. I just I literally just today was doing Jungle Valley and thought of that. Come on. And then I did. I think it was right after we finished Episode four. Maybe that next day I finally got to play, and I'm I'm running through an area goingTyler: the hell areJustin: these things popping up? My screen is unlike running through killing stuff. And yeah, that's the monster parts picking up. Yeah. Is that I'm sure people listening to it Or like what a whiny baby like it's alreadyTyler: faced. I'm sorry. Fix happen hour later, but what do you think of it?Justin: Uh, I I do like it. Obviously, I actually this is just me being a turd. I'm not a big fan of the way it shows up, because it and maybe we'll just take a bit of getting used to playing more to get used to it. But it throws me off for some reason, a little bit And maybe it's just cause I'm not playing a very fast build. I'm not moving super quickly through the map or through the zone. There's something about the way it pops up that just throws me off from looking at what the drops are to the interest at part going up. But I I love it. I absolutely love the fact that I don't care what it does. I don't care what flash my whole screen. The fact that it I don't have to be. Oh, I don't have to go and pick them all up is so much better. Yeah. You like it?Tyler: I like the animation. Yeah, I like it. I don't get distracted with it. I don't get it mixed up with other possible drops. I really like it. And the thing that I I don't know if this was how it used to be, because you and I have progressed slowly, but whether it was added new or not, I love that when you're about to go through a portal or a door. Um, what's his name shows up.Justin: Oh, yeah, kind of warns you.Tyler: Yeah, but I like that, you know, because I'm going to go through and I'm gonna clear the map. How I normally cleared I don't go out of my way for any lead content if it's going to be, You know, if if there's two monsters left and I'm missing one body part, I'm not going for it. So it's nice when I'm vote to go into this or I'm gonna portal. Oh, that he shows up. He's like a Okay, let's use up your pieces. Yeah, I like it. I think it was a very it was a gamer's choice, You know what I mean? Whoever came up with that idea, it was it was the gamer in them that came up with that. That was really convenient.Justin: Yeah, I think it is. Good, cause I would probably forget Maur often than not if if he didn't do that, and I'd probably load the next map and be like, damn it, I forgot to use up those parts. So that's at least good. Now, did you Did you get Ah, Did you get your Christmas gift from G, which I feel like you should take away from you? I feel like people who are complaining about them going to skeleton staff don't deserveTyler: a gift. I don't maybe. Oh, everything. Oh, they deserve a wicked Christmas. Well, old Atlas.Justin: So what you're saying, though, is the people that stay working what I'm saying? That'sTyler: qu'est er of words. No. Um, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.Justin: Did you get you get from them there? It was one of the boxes. Right.Tyler: Okay, well, you got I do not. What? But it was white.Justin: So I on on that same topic, because I I did get, um, a gift. I got the white, uh, missed, I think for the for your base, The white It's like, OK, but I also I decided I was going to do the grand sanctum pack because I really like the wings. And I like the outfit. That was the thing is the $60 pack. I'm still I'm still boycotting. Currently, there their core packs. I just Maybe I might really I might buy this the snake one just because it's, you know, it's it is a little bit unique, but I just can't I I was like, Well, I don't see myself going this time for there's no shirt. So why spend 240 bucks? But ah, it So I bought the couple of the boxes. I have 55 versions of God. What is it? The blink. Ah, it's one of the skills that they went there. No, no, no, it's Ah, it's not whirling blades. It's something Blade. What is it called, anyway? It's I have five of them. I hate that. That's the one thing that drives me crazy. You know, all I want is a damn portal. I think I've opened maybe 20 boxes, so not like a ton, but 25% of them have been the same thing killing me, G.Tyler: But I got to say, normally I'm I'm portals, is what it kind of revolves around for me. You know, you need to have a nice portal that matches the set. And because it's so much bigger and brighter, that color stands out to the others that you can get away with footprints that don't aren't the exact shade of white or green that you're looking for to match your set. You know what I mean? Because it's much farther away and it phase and it's busy, but portal portals really stand out there there the whole time. You stand next time for a while. The grand sanctum support pack is so nice that I'm gonna get it, even though I don't like at a normal that could match it.Justin: Well, give me a portal that you have because there's portals that mattersTyler: and that really, I don't think so. Well, sometimes it's also it's not just the color. It's also the action that the portal does, or the colors and how it goes. You know what I mean? AndJustin: wings air really cool with it, though.Tyler: I love it. I love it. I'm, uh I'll be getting it as soon as we're done.Justin: I'm actually using some of the white armor that I got from the boxes with the grand sanctum, but, uh, yeah, I I don't remember. I do have two of the white floaty mists. Uh, you can put in your base. I also I don't think you've seen it yet, but I have I did get that new base, butTyler: so did you.Justin: Yeah, the completely I did it mostly because I knew it would drive Ethan crazy. And so I loaded it up. I put it in there with absolutely nothing. And I just spaced the characters out, and I When he walked by my office, I was like, Look, check out how awesome this is. And he was upset right away. And I told him it's going to stay like that All league. I'm not gonna put anything down. If anything, I might put like a fire pit for some random reason. Like one fire pit.Tyler: Well, it's cold in the stars. Yep. It's gonna look awesome. So you can sit cross leggedJustin: and put all of my petsTyler: so they can float around. And don't forget you're missed.Justin: Oh, yeah. I should put down that white mist. I'm gonna put it in a corner just so that when people visit, I'd be like, Hey, did you see there's twoTyler: also you. I'll even give you a discount. But you've got to go in the mist.Justin: There's two of them up there, but I love that they give those little boxes. I think it's fun.Tyler: Yeah, they're very generous company. And every time I realized that we've complained about something in the game that I don't like or you don't like, I feel really bad. I don'tJustin: feel bad, and I think it's good. It's I don't think we're being fixed. It's no, I get it. ITyler: get. It's constructive. But I still when I really when I remember that it's free and everything's free. I feel like a prick.Justin: Well, I mean, you're a prick, but it doesn't mean that they're doingTyler: anything wrong. I'm not the one that went solo. Cell found. You're a prick.Justin: Yeah, but you also said that they don't deserve a merry Christmas.Tyler: No, I said enjoy your merry Christmas with the old Atlas.Justin: I think I think it isTyler: you not being able to give me the Val City waypoint is way worse than anything anyone else has ever done toJustin: me. I think that merry Christmas box makes up for the bugs. So two people complaining about the bugs. At least you got a box,Tyler: right? And he didn't play peewee a Christmas. You're not a real fan. Anyway. It's true, right, Britta?Justin: At least to log in. Get your freaking box.Tyler: You did have to be in game to get it. Well, you couldn't click on it on the website.Justin: Yeah, but you didn't have to be on that day.Tyler: I remember.Justin: I got mine today, I think because I didn't go on you saidTyler: you were on yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I was able to finish my just for the box. No, no, I was able to finish an actor to yesterday. I think it was yesterday that I got two maps. Who? I think the boxes logging in until January 6.Justin: Oh, yes. I didn't think it was just the single day that that would be a jerk. Move. Geez, like,Tyler: Well, we're a little Bell City. Wait points a jerk. MoveJustin: How? We're at home enjoying our Christmas. If you don't log into the video game on that day, you don't get it. Uh,Tyler: enjoy your family, Bond.Justin: Yeah, I don't think anything we've said is mean spirited. And yeah, I think we're fair. We're now We're nice people in general, right?Tyler: Well, one of us, one of me. That's true. Yeah.Justin: So that's why did I look through the post that they made because they had put up a post about like, uh, some of the known issues that they were going to deal with, But I didTyler: nothing in there really,Justin: like, stood out to me like Oh my gosh, I can't play this. I will be honest. There is one that says the convert maps button in the map stash tab has been temporarily disabled as there were problems converting to the new layout. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I laughed so hard when I read that. Why fly? What? You've just popped into my head instantly. I don't know why you just made me laugh. I was like, Oh, but they're listening. Listen,Tyler: every time the game updates whether waiting for you and I hate how long steam takes to frickin update a 30 makeup date. But anyway, when I'm I mean, it gives me 10 hours. Thank you, Steam for being able to check the patch notes every time I'm just control f that I see my console game updating him like, Oh, well, maybe because they group their patches together for Consul cause they don't promote us frequently. I don't know how it works in the console back end, but that's really do. And so then I'm like, Oh, sweet, Maybe maybe a new one came out for PC today, and then I control control F on the patch notes for Xbox. You mad? I'm excited. It'll happenJustin: yet to me. When I read through this stuff there was, I think only one that maybe kind of popped out to me is like, Okay, this is actually something they need to work on. And it was releasing legion generals during legion encounters can cause a client crash. I think something that can actually crashed the game, that that's a bit of a problem. And that mostly just cause we both dealt with leagues where I mean you, especially where that was an issue. So I can I can, you know, I can see that a little bit. But when I look at their posts that they put out and this is days before Christmas, I think this one popped up. I don't rember who posted it. Uh, it still impresses me like they're legitimately looking into stuff. They know stuff there, and they're gonna fix it. And the stuff that I was reading was not game breaking. Besides, the fact that the client could crash that that to me is a bit of a big deal. I had an issue with one of the valves side areas. Who cares? It was not a big deal. It took into when I when I exited, it didn't bring me back. So where I had entered into the map, I actually thought it was cool. Yeah, I don't know. The rest of the stuff wasTyler: even something like Metamor. Fosse's not being able to be frozen were used to Boss is not be able to be frozen. It was just chill, right, Right. So I, you know, even with something that was frozen dependent, you're getting a very good chill on them, especially because it was buff. So that's not even a big problem either.Justin: Nothing stood out to me where on and again, that could have been because there have been stuff fixed that were more game breaking that I just never encounter because I hadn't gotten up there. But I didn't really stand out to Mia's thes terrible things.Tyler: Yeah, I can see the There's a There's an issue where the awakened cast on Krit um, is creating cooled elms where when there shouldn't be any, I could see that being a big issue for builds. But at the same time, you don't need the awakened jewel to have a successful build. SoJustin: you're already having a problem with an awakened version of a skill? Boo hoo. I don't feel bad for you. Even a tiny bit. A tiny bit. Put the cast on. CreatedTyler: for not to drop.Justin: Sure, I'm thrilled. If it didn't work on the lake first week of a league lunch, I wouldn't be like you wreckedTyler: my bill. No, you haven't. Go put the normalJustin: one in the one you used all the way up until you found that one. Yeah. Yeah, I saw. I don'tTyler: know if anybody's actually complaining about it, but we did see it on the bug report,Justin: right? I imagine it's probably because somebody complained about it. Ah, but yeah, I just It made me laugh. Yeah, there were. There were some really fun, uh, things that I saw in in red It actually in the last couple of days that made me laugh or not laugh with smile there. Only because I get so jealous I still haven't seen exults this league. Nothing cool has dropped yet besides garbage unique ce which is still fine. But the critic I that posted he did ah ah Contains a valuable gym. He got to You got enlightened and empower both level force. They dropped as a light on level four. Empower little for. And there was other stuff too, but oh, my gosh. I was like, What? The hacky. There was a screenshot of it, and I'm thinking in solar cell found I would leave in a heartbeat. I like buying stuff through a felon. I'm getting stuff, but it was crazy. And then, uh Okay, So there. Did you see? I don't know how often you check credit, but there was a helmet that somebody posted that was crafted. This was It was it was with that the ah, the awaken, her orb. So where you combined the two things? Now I feel like this is a lot because this helmet just Oh, man. Perfect. It's a meat. Well, yeah, it used to be. I mean, it sucks now because zombies are terrible, but Okay, I'm just gonna read through it.Tyler: I don't think they're terrible, ByJustin: the way, we're talking about a bone helmet. Yeah, Minion steal. 20%. Increased is the, uh,Tyler: got Ah. So a max. ImplicitJustin: max. Implicit of minions deal. 20% crease damage plus three toe level of soccer Did Minion Gems socket of gems. Air supported by level 18 million. Life soccer. The gems air supported by level, 18 million damage. Now, if it stopped here, you've already done really, really well. Like, really, really? Well, like last season. Last league. Oh, my God. You could have bought 20 years. It everybody wanted every freaking minion thing. Now, yeah, we're gonna continue on. Minions have 19% increase Max life minions deal 20%. Increased damage, 5% reduced manner. Reserved glow. And he had the intent on it for flesh offering. Granting an additional 21% increase. Attack speed for flesh. And then he had craft. That was insane. Lightning resist.Tyler: But nuts it is. Of course, it's incubating something just to make it even more exciting.Justin: I it just seemed fake when I read it. Yeah, I was like, Oh, my God. I would like last league. I would have liked just two of those options to force their six good things on there.Tyler: I can't tell you how much currency I've spent on console trying to get a plus three to the level of socket 1,000,000 Jim's. I still don't have it. I am trying everything. The craft. I'm going crazy. I make I I can't do it. I can't do it. And then here's this year's this.Justin: Yeah, it's just I don't know what he was crafting. Four. I did Rhea little bit about the threat, and the guy who actually crafted it kind of came on. It was like, I don't know what to do with this, which made me laugh because I would be the same way. I would have been really upset that I didn't have it last league because, I mean, it's awaken. Or that's new, though, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have really done it, but still,Tyler: no, but it doesn't have to. I mean, I know you're against how zombies were were cut down a bit, this league, but that's not so. I'll be specific by any means. No, I know. But so respect all Dominion buffs from last later still applicable. That thing's crazy but still insane. It's still absurd. That's something like, even if you had a mirror, you would just put that somehow on display just so that you could look at it sometimes,Justin: yeah, It's crazy. I couldn't believe it when I was reading through it. So cool. Yeah, I wanted to just give a quick show boat. We've gotten some pretty cool feedback from people that have been listening and people that have given us some advice and some constructive criticism. You know, the lovely kind, But I want to just give a shout out to all those people and, ah, we don't have a list of everyone, but we're going to start making a list because it's it's a really big deal to us. It really helps us figure out what we should do better for the next ones. And let us know that people enjoy the time that we share together, you know?Tyler: Yeah. No, it's It's been really cool. It's been a lot of fun. We're only five episodes in, but every episode has been listened to more than the previous one, and it's ah, it's exciting to see how it goes, but it's ah oh, we just want to say a big thank you to people that do find this enjoyable, and we definitely would value your feedback for sure. So I know we said at the end of every episode. But just to emphasize, if you tweet us at forever exiled 82. Just positive feedback, negative feedback. Whatever it is, we do want to make this a really good podcast for you and something that lots of path of exile players would really enjoy it here. So let us know what you think. We thank you very much for listening to all the episodes that you already have.Justin: If it's mean we'll start a Twitter war straight up. That's right. Fight to the death of Twitter. All right, cool. Well, listen, Thanks for everybody listening. This, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This was Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host tags, A k a JustinTyler: A key. I'm Tyler, also known as Wrecker of Days......ThanksJustin:  Check out the show Notes below. To find more information on today's episode, you can find us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82

Relish the Fall Feelings and join Brittany, Cicely and Danielle as they get deep in themed discussion on DOUBT with special guest renown comic artisan Justin Stewart. If you're a Kentuckian and into comics, Justin Stewart is an MVP in the comic industry. As a creative and comic artist he's founder of Six Bomb Boards that host live public art events throughout Kentucky. Justin is the not only the Art Director for the Lexington Comic and Toy Convention but has done work for Marvel and Image. His latest published work includes art in the latest Netflix Stranger Things fan art book available Oct. 15. Justin is a mentor, parent, entrepreneur and creative community advocate. Welcome to the show! --- Follow Justin3000 for more amazing comic works. Top Takeaways: “As creatives we can spend a lot of time in our own heads and that can be dangerous.” - Justin “Doubt feeds the creative process.”-Brittany “You have to have people that will look at you (your work) with a critical eye but will tell you/give creative criticism.” -Justin “Find people; reach out.” - Justin “Don’t compare yourself to others. You’re doing YOUR thing.” -- Justin “Nobody succeeds alone.” - Justin “Types of doubt: 1) Delorean of doubt: doubt from anywhere and stricken with dark feelings. 2) Dodge Dart of doubt: 'rolling around with you', its not the best but its always there.” - Justin “Give the Dart of Doubt the finger.” - Justin “I always try to do my best to be mindful of where I began.” - Justin “We see people share there “greatest hits” when sharing our low points is (also) part of the journey.” - Justin “As creatives we should always challenge ourselves, do things out of our comfort zone. Those things lead to new things.” - Justin “There’s a scientific method to creativity.” -- Justin “Being a creative is a long game.” - Justin --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/mtg-more-than-graphics/support

Justin Myers is a journalist who for a long time wrote under his pseudonym The Guyliner.​ I first started reading his hilarious writing back in 2012 when his blog posts started getting published on the Huffington Post.​ He has written for Gay Times, GQ and the Guardian. His first novel, The Last Romeo, was published by Little, Brown in Spring this year. We talk about writing non fiction and how his fiction has some similarities to his journalistic career.His book The Last Romeo tells a story of the character James - his long relationship with Adam ends, decides to try out the dating scene for the first time, writing about his exploits for a small, loyal audience under a secret identity: the Last Romeo. An account of a date with a closeted celebrity boosts the blog’s popularity, not to mention its notoriety, and soon James finds himself reluctantly internet-famous, and dealing with the associated perks and pitfalls; the fans, trolls, and haters, who all want to know one thing: who the hell is Romeo?We talk about what it's like coming out as your real self from behind an anonymous blog and how to use your experiences for a novel. We also talk about age and I like this quote from Justin: "There is no new rule that once you hit 35 or 40, you are suddenly no longer interested in new things around you or new stuff." See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.