Podcasts about justin it

Exploring the relationship between faith and recovery, especially when it comes to managing Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), reveals a complex but fascinating landscape. It's like looking at two sides of the same coin, where faith can either be a source of immense support or a challenging factor in one's healing journey. On one hand, faith can act like a sturdy anchor or a comforting presence, offering hope and a sense of purpose that's invaluable for many people working through OCD. This aspect of faith is not just about religious practices; it's deeply personal, providing a framework that can help individuals make sense of their struggles and find a pathway towards recovery. The sense of community and belonging that often comes with faith can also play a crucial role in supporting someone through their healing process. However, it's not always straightforward. Faith can get tangled up with the symptoms of OCD, leading to situations where religious beliefs and practices become intertwined with the compulsions and obsessions that characterize the disorder. This is where faith can start to feel like a double-edged sword, especially in cases of scrupulosity, where religious or moral obligations become sources of intense anxiety and compulsion. The conversation around integrating faith into recovery is a delicate one. It emphasizes the need for a personalized approach, recognizing the unique ways in which faith intersects with an individual's experience of OCD. This might involve collaborating with religious leaders, incorporating spiritual practices into therapy, or navigating the complex ways in which faith influences both the symptoms of OCD and the recovery process. Moreover, this discussion sheds light on a broader conversation about the intersection of psychology and spirituality. It acknowledges the historical tensions between these areas, while also pointing towards a growing interest in understanding how they can complement each other in the context of mental health treatment. In essence, the relationship between faith and recovery from OCD highlights the importance of a compassionate and holistic approach. It's about finding ways to respect and integrate an individual's spiritual beliefs into their treatment, ensuring that the journey towards healing is as supportive and effective as possible. This balance is key to harnessing the positive aspects of faith, while also navigating its challenges with care and understanding. Justin K. Hughes, MA, LPC, owner of Dallas Counseling, PLLC, is a clinician and writer, passionate about helping those impacted by OCD and Anxiety Disorders. He serves on the IOCDF's OCD & Faith Task Force and is the Dallas Ambassador for OCD Texas. Working with a diversity of clients, he also is dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and mental health. A sought-after writer and speaker, he is currently mid-way through writing his first workbook on evidence-based care of OCD for Christians. He is seeking a collaborative agent who will help secure the best publishing house to help those most in need. Check out www.justinkhughes.com to stay in the loop and get free guides & handouts! Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. Today, we're talking about faith and its place in recovery. Does faith help your recovery? Does it hinder your recovery? And all the things in between.  Today, we have Justin Hughes. Justin is the owner of Dallas Counseling and is a clinician and writer. He's passionate about helping those who are impacted by OCD. He is the Dallas ambassador for OCD Texas and serves on the IOCDF's OCD and Faith Task Force, working with a diversity of clients. He's also dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and OCD, most commonly Christians. But today, we're here to talk about faith in general. Welcome, Justin. Justin: Kimberley Jayne Quinlan, howdy. Kimberley: You said howdy just perfectly from your Texas state.  Justin: Absolutely. Kimberley: Okay. This is a huge topic. And just for those who are listening, we tried to record this once before, we were just saying, but we had tech issues. And I'm so glad we did because I have thought about this so much since, and I feel like evolved a little since then too.  So, we're here to talk about how to use faith in recovery and/or is it helpful for some people, and talk about the way that it is helpful and for some not. Can you share a little bit about your background on why this is an important topic for you? Justin: Absolutely. So, first of all, as a man of faith, I'm a Christian. I went to a Christian college, got my degree in Psychology, and very much desired to interweave studies between psychology and theology. So, I went to a seminary. A lot of people hear that, and they're like, “Did you become a priest?” No, it was a counseling program at a seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. I came here and then found my wife, and I stayed in Dallas.  And it's been important to me from a personal faith standpoint. And I love the faith integration in treatment and exploring that with clients. And of course -- or maybe I shouldn't say of course, but it's going to be a lot of Christians, but I work with a lot of different faith backgrounds. And there are some really important conversations happening in the broader world of treatment about faith integration and its place. And we're going to get into all those things and hopefully some of the history and psychology's relationship to faith, which has not been the greatest at different points. For me personally, faith isn't just an exercise. It's not something that I just add on to make my day better. In fact, a lot of times, faith requires me to do way more difficult things than I want to do, but it's a belief in the ultimate object of my faith in God and Christ as a Christian. I naturally come across a lot of people who not only identify that as important but find it as very essential to their treatment. And let's get into that, the folks that find it essential, the people who find it very much not, and the people who don't. But that's just a little bit about me and why I find this so important. Kimberley: Yeah. It's interesting because I was raised Episcopalian. I don't really practice a lot of that anymore for no reason except, I don't know, if I'm going to be really honest.  Justin: So honest. I love that.  Kimberley: Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot because I had a positive experience. Sometimes I long for it, but for reasons I don't know. Again, I'm just still on that journey, figuring that piece out and exploring that.  Where I see clients is usually on the end of their coming to me as a client, saying, “I'm a believer, but it's all gotten messed up and mushed up and intertwined.” And I'm my job. I think of my job as helping them untangle it. Justin: Yeah. Kimberley: Not by me giving my own personal opinion either, but just letting them untangle it. How might you see that? Are you seeing that also? And what is the process of that untangling, if we were to use that word? Justin: It's so broad and varied. So, I would imagine that just like with clients that I work with and folks that come to conferences and that I talk with, the listeners in your audience, hi listeners, are going to have a broad experience of views, and it's so functional. So, I want people to hear right away that I don't think that there's just a cookie-cutter approach. There can't be with this. And whether we're treating OCD, anxiety disorders, or depression, or eating disorders, or BFRVs, fill in the blank, there are obviously evidence-based treatments which are effective for most, but even those can't be a cookie cutter when it comes down to exactly what a person needs to do or what is required of them in recovery.  So, yes, let me just state this upfront for the folks that might be unduly nervous at this point. First of all, the faith piece, religious piece, does not have to enter into treatments for a lot of people to get the job done. In fact, actually, for a lot of people, it was much more healing for them, including many of my clients. I have friends and family members that sometimes look at me as scant. So like, “Wait, you went to seminary, and sometimes you don't talk about God at all.” And it's like, “Yeah, sometimes we're just doing evidence-based treatment, and that is that.” And as an evidence-based practitioner, that's important to me.  So, when people come in, I want to work with what their goals are, their values. And a lot of people have found themselves, for any number of reasons, stuck, maybe compulsions or obsessive thoughts or whatever, are stuck in all things belief, religion, or faith or whatever else. And sometimes actually, the most healing thing for them to do is sometimes get in, get out, do the job clinically, walk away, experience freedom, and then grow and develop personally.  But then I've also discovered that there's this other side that some people do not find a breakthrough. Some people stay stuck. And maybe these are the people that hit the stats that we see in research of 20% or so just turn down things like ERP, (exposure and response prevention) with OCD when they're offered. And then another 20 to 30% drop out. And we have great studies that tell us that most people who stick with it get a lot of benefits, but there's all the other folks that didn't. And sometimes it's because people -- no offense, you all, but sometimes people just don't want to put in the work and discipline.  However, we can't minimize it to that. Sometimes it's truly people that are willing to show up, and there's a complex layer of things. And the cookie-cutter approach is not going to work for them. Maybe they have the intersection of complex health issues, intersection of trauma, intersection of even just family of origin things where life is really difficult, or even just right now, a loneliness epidemic that's happening in the world.  And by the way, I'm a huge believer in the evidence base. There's a lot in the evidence base that guides us. And as I'm talking today, I want to be really clear that when I work with folks, even when we get into the spiritual, I'm working with the evidence base. Yeah, there's things that there's no specific protocol for, but a lot of folks, I think, can hopefully be encouraged that there's a strong research base to the benefits and the use and the application and also the care of practicing various spiritual practices through treatments.  So, to come back to the original question, it depends so much. It's like if somebody asked me a question like, “Hey, Justin. Okay, so as a therapist, do you think that --” and I get these questions all the time, “Is it okay for me to...? Like, I am afraid of this.” I got this question at one point. Somebody was curious if I thought it was okay for them to travel to another city. And it's like, it depends. It's almost always an “it depends.”  So, that's where I'm going to leave it, that nice, squeaky place that we all just want a dang answer, but the reality is, it is going to massively depend on the person and where they are, and what their needs are. Kimberley: Yeah, I mean, and I'll speak to it too, sometimes I've seen a client. Let's give a few examples of a client with OCD. The OCD has attacked their faith and made it very superstitious or very fear-based instead of faith-based. And I think they come in with that, “Everything's so messy and it used to make so much sense, and now it doesn't.”  For eating disorders, I've had a lot of clients who will have a faith component where there are certain religions that have ways in which you prepare foods and things, and then that has become very sticky and hard for them. The eating disorder gets involved with that as well.  And let me think more just from a general standpoint, and I'll use me as an example, as just like a generally anxious person. I remember this really wonderful time, I'll tell you a funny story, when my daughter was like five, out of nowhere, she insisted that we go to every church. Like she wanted to go to a Christian and a Catholic and Jewish temple and Muslim and Buddhist. She wanted to try all of them, and we were like, “Great, let's go and do it.” And I could see how my anxious brain would go black and white on everything they said. So, if they said something really beautiful, my brain would get very perfectionistic about that and have a little tantrum. I think it would be like, “But I can't do it that perfect,” and I would get freaked out, but also be able to catch myself. So, I think that it's important to recognize how the disorder can get mixed up in that. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley: Right? Let's now flip, unless you have something you want to add, to how has faith helped people in their recovery, and what does that look like for you as a clinician, for the client, for their journey? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on the clinical side of things, the starting place is always going to be the assessments and diagnosis and treatment plan. And then the ethics of it too is going to be working with the person where they are and their beliefs and not forcing anything, of course. And so folks are naturally -- I get it, I respect it. I would be nervous of somebody of a different belief background that's overt about things. Some people come in, they look at the wall, they see Dallas Theological Seminary, they've studied a few things in advance. So, yeah, the starting places, sitting down, honest, building rapport, trust, assessing, diagnosing. So, for the folks where the faith piece is significant, I'll put it into two categories. So, one is sometimes we have to talk about aspects of faith just from a pure assessment sample. So, a common example of that is scrupulosity in OCD. So, I have worked with even a person on the, believe it or not, Faith and OCD Task Force who is atheist. And so, why in the world do we need to talk about faith? Why is that person even on the Faith and OCD Task Force? Well, they're representing a diversity of views and opinions on the role of faith and OCD.  Kimberley: Love it. Justin: And it's so interesting to look at it at a base level with something like OCD. But frankly, a lot of mental disorders or even just challenges in life, if clinicians, one, aren't asking questions about, hey, do you have any religious views, background, even just in your background? Do you have spiritual practices that are important to you? We're missing a massive component. And here's the research piece. We know from the research that, actually, a majority of people find things of faith or spirituality important, and secondarily, that a majority of people would like to be able to talk about those things in therapy. Straight-up research. So, a couple of articles that I wrote for the IOCDF on this reference this research. So, it is evidence-based to talk about this.  And then when we get into these sticky areas of obsessions and anxiety disorders, of course, it's going to poke on philosophy, worldview, spirituality. And so, it could be even outside of scrupulosity, beliefs that at first it just looks like we need some good shame reduction exercises, self-compassion, and so forth, but we discover that, oh, the person struggling with contamination OCD has a lot of deeper beliefs that they think that somehow, they are flawed because they're struggling. They're not a good enough, fill in the blank, Christian. They're not good enough. Because if so, surely God would break through in a bigger way. If so... Wouldn't these promises that I'm told in scriptures actually become true?  And the cool thing is, there's a richness in the theology that helps us understand the nuance there, and it's not that simple. But if we miss that component, and it's essential for treatment, it's not just like, “Oh, I feel bad about myself. And yeah, sometimes I'm critical with myself.” And if we don't go at that level of core fear, or core distress, or core belief, oftentimes we're missing really a central part of the treatment, which we talk about in any other domain. People just get nervous sometimes, thinking about spirituality. It's like politics and religion, right? Nobody talks about those things. Well, if we're having deeper conversations, we usually are. And as clinicians, those of you that are listening to the podcast as clinicians, you know that you have to work with people of different political leanings, people of different faith leanings, people who actually live in California versus [inaudible]. I love California.  So, the first category is, if we're doing good clinical work, we're going to be asking questions because it matters to most people. If we don't, we're missing a huge piece. It doesn't mean you're a bad therapist, but hey, start asking some questions if you're not, at a minimum.  But then there's the second piece that most people actually want to know, and most people have some aspects of practice or integration, or even the most religion church-averse type of person will have any number of things come up such as, “Yeah, I pray occasionally,” or “Yeah, I do this grounding exercise that puts me in touch with the universe or creation or whatever it is.”  So, there's the second category of when it is important to a person because it's part of the bigger picture of growth, it's part of the bigger picture of breaking free from challenges that they have, and, frankly, finding meaning. And I'll just make one philosophical comment here, because I'm a total nerd. Psychology can never be a worldview. Psychology tells us what. Psychology is a subset of science. And by worldview, I mean a collective set of beliefs, guidance, direction about how life should be lived. We can only say, “Hey, when you do this, you tend to feel this way, or you tend to do these behaviors more or do these behaviors less.” At the end of the day, we have to make interpretations and judgments about right and wrong, how to live life, the best way to live life. These are in the realm of interpretation.  So, surprise, surprise, we're in the realm of at least philosophy, but we very quickly get into theology. And so back to the piece that most people care about it, most people have some sort of spiritual practice that they'll resonate with and connect with. And then most people actually want to integrate a little bit into therapy. And then some people find that it is essential. They haven't been able to find any lasting freedom outside of going deeper into a bigger purpose, `bigger meaning. Kimberley: You said a couple of things that really rang true for me because I really want to highlight here, I'm on the walk here as well as a client. And I love having these conversations with clients, not about me, about them, but them when they don't have a spiritual practice, longing for one. I've had countless clients say, “I just wish I believed.” And I think what sometimes they're looking for is a motivator. I have some clients who have a deep faith, and their North Star is that religion. Their North Star is following the word of that religion or the outcome of it, whether it be to go to heaven or whatever, afterlife or whatever. They believe like that's the North Star. That's what determines every part of their treatment. Like, “Why are we doing this exposure today?” “Because this is my North Star. I know where I'm heading. I know what the goal is.” And then I have those clients who are like, “I need a North Star. I don't have one. I don't get the point.” And I think that is where faith is so beautiful in recovery.  When I witness my clients who are going to do the scary thing, they don't want to do it, but they're so committed to this North Star, whatever it might be. And maybe there's a better language than a North Star, again, whatever that is for that person. Like, “I'm walking towards the light of whatever that religion is.” I feel, if I'm going to be honest, envious of that. And I totally get that some people do too.  What would you say to a client who is longing for something like that? Maybe they have spiritual trauma in some respects or they've had bad experiences, or they're just unsure. What would you say to them? Justin: Yeah, that's really great. And first of all, I just want to really say that it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to talk as you do. And one of the ways that I admire you, KQ, is through your ability to have these vulnerable conversations. So not just like the platform of expert, because at the end of the day, we're all just people and on a journey for sure. And so thanks for being honest with that.  And I'm on a journey as well. And certainly, I realized jumping on podcasts, these things put us in the expert role and we speak at conferences and things like that. But I think that's a bit of the answer right there, is that being where we are to start with is so huge. And I mean, you're so good with the steps to take around acceptance and compassion. That's it. It's like fear presses towards a thousand different possibilities, and none of them come true exactly that way. And it can lead towards people missing a lot of personal growth stuff, spiritual growth stuff. And one of those things, I think, that we do is we sit with that. Clinically, I'm going to assess, ask a lot of questions, Socratic questions as a subset of the cognitive therapy side of doing that. Let me just come back to the simplicity. I think we get there. We sit in it for a second. And otherwise, we miss it. We're rushing to preconceived solutions or answers, but we're saying that we don't necessarily have an answer for that. So, what if we take some time to actually notice it and to be with that and to actually label it and be like, “I'm not sure. I'm yearning. I'm envious. I'm wanting something, but I don't know. So, put me in, coach.” I'll sit with people. That's really the first thing.  Kimberley: Yeah. What I have practiced, and I've encouraged clients is also being curious, like trying things out if that lines up with their values, going to a service, reading a book, listening to a podcast, and just trying it on. For me, it's also interesting with clients, is if they're yearning for it, try it on and observe what shows up. Is it that black-and-white thinking or perfectionism? Is it your obsessions getting involved? Is it that it just doesn't feel good in your body? And so forth. Again, just be where you are and take it slow, I think.  I have a few other areas I want you to look at in terms of giving me your professional thoughts. If somebody wants to incorporate faith into their treatment, what can that look like? Can it look like praying together? What does that look like? Justin: You're asking all the good questions. Yeah, absolutely. And also, one other thing to reference, I know you're friends with Shala Nicely and Jeff Bell. And so they wrote a book. And for those that are on that, I would say, more “I'm seeking journey,” it's When in Doubt, Make Belief: An OCD-Inspired Approach to Living with Uncertainty. And I love Shala and Jeff. They're so great, and they've been really pivotal people in my own life, not just as friends, but just as personal growth too. And so, that's an example specifically where Shala talks about the throes of her suffering. Is Fred in the Refrigerator? is her basically autobiography that goes into the clinical piece too, where at the end of the day, there was a bit of a pragmatic experience that she couldn't -- the universe being against her, she basically always had that view and she needed something that was different. And so she got there, I think. I hope I'm reflecting her sentence as well, but got there pragmatically. “The universe is friendly” is something that she said.  Now, I just know that my Christian brothers and sisters, if they're listening to this, they're probably like, “What the heck is Justin talking about? The universe is friendly?” Because that's very, very different from the language that we've used, but it's just such a great example to me of just one step at a time, a person on the journey. They're looking at those things and assessing, okay, what is obsessive, what is compulsive, what is this thing that I can believe in and I ultimately do, but maybe I'm not. I don't want to or I'm not ready, or it doesn't make sense to me to make a jump into an organized religious plea for whatever else. And so, how does it look for clients?  So in short, do I pray with clients? Yeah, absolutely. Do I open up the Bible? Yes, absolutely. Actually, it is a minority of sessions, which again, on my more conservative friends and family side of things are almost shocked and scratching their heads. Like, “You're a Christian, you do counseling, and you're not doing that.” We're a bunch of weirdos. We're in that realm of the inter-Christian circle in a good sense. We believe so deeply that God loves us and God has interceded and does intercede, and interacts with our present, not just a historical event here and there, and we're left on our own, the deistic watchmaker, to use a philosophical reference there. That because we believe that so strongly, we're not going to take no for an answer in the sense of the deeper growth and deeper faith.  So, sometimes that backfires though, especially getting into the superstitious, like, “Well, God's got to be in everything, and I'm not feeling it,” as opposed to like, “Okay. Is it possible that I could just have a brain that gives me some pretty nasty thoughts sometimes and it doesn't necessarily reflect that I'm in a bad state, that I can be curious about what a person getting mangled by a car might look like mentally and then be terrified by that?” And then like, “Thanks, brain, for giving me the imagination. Glad I can think through accidents so I can maybe be a safer driver.” Yeah, absolutely. But I will say that's one of those sticky points a lot of times for Christians because we believe that thoughts matter and beliefs matter. And so there can be this overinterpretation of everything is always something really big and serious about my status and my heart, and something that's really big and serious about spiritual things or demonic stuff, or fill in the blank.  So, the faith integration piece, I do carefully, but I'm not scared of it. I've done it so often. It's through a lot of assessments. It has to be from the standpoint of the client's wanting that. Usually, the client is asking me specifically, like, “Hey, would you pray at the end of the session?” Sure, absolutely, in most cases.  And this, such a deep topic. I'm fully aware that there are those in the camp that view faith integration as completely antithetical to what needs to happen in treatments. And they argue their case, they're going to argue it really strongly, but the same exists on the other side as well. And I try and work in that realm of, okay, what's good for the clients? And are there some things that I don't do? Yeah, but I'm not really asked to do them.  I've had a number of Muslim clients throughout the year. I don't join in with Ramadan with clients in various practices or fasting with a client, for example. That's not my faith practice there. But can I walk with the client who is trying to differentiate between the lines of fasting and I had water at this point, and the sun was going down and I thought. And other people were having water, but I'm getting stuck on assessing, like, was it too early, and did I actually violate my commitment, my vow? Did I violate what I was supposed to be doing?  I can absolutely work with that person, and I need to. I can't really work with OCD or anxiety disorders if I wanted to turn that person away at the door and be like, “Oh, well, I'm not Muslim, so I'm sorry.” No, we're going to jump into it and be like, “Okay, so tell me about this thought and then this behavior that came up at this time, and you're noticing that that's a little different from your community, that other people are starting to drink water, eat food. And so, you mentioned that it was right at sunset, but what time was that?” “Well, actually, it was like 10:30 p.m. It's two hours dark.” It's like, “But I think I saw a glow in the distance.” And it's like, “Okay, now we're into a pretty classic OCD realm.” And so the simplest way that I can say that faith integration can be done in therapy is carefully, respectfully, with good assessments. Kimberley: Do you have them consult with their spiritual leader if you're stuck on that? And does that involve you speaking with them, them speaking with them, all three of you? What have you done? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a collaboration that goes in a number of different ways. Most of the time, people can speak with their clergy member or faith leader pretty directly, pretty separately, and that is going to work just fine. I would say in most cases, people don't need to, especially if I'm working with OCD. A lot of folks usually have a pretty good general sense of, “Okay, I know what my faith community is going to say about this is X, but I'm scared because it feels like it's on shaky ground, I'm obsessing,” et cetera.  So, the clarification with the clergy, for instance, or a leader is more from the standpoint of if there's not a defined value definition practice, and that does come up for sure. So, helping that person to even find who that might be, especially if they're not a part of that, and/or maybe a good article to read with some limits, like, okay, three articles max. Check out a more conservative view, a more liberal view, a more fill in the blank.  And then my friend and colleague Alec Pollard up at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute, he's been on scrupulosity panels with me. He uses this excellent form called the PISA, (Possibly Immoral or Sinful Act). And it's just a great several-question guide. That or any number of things can be taken to clergyperson, leader in Christian circles a lot of times, like a Bible study or community group. Maybe flesh those things out just a little bit, maybe once, maybe twice max.  And so, back to how much others are integrated, yeah, it's a mix and match, anything, everything. For me, with direct conversations with clergy, it's actually because I'm pretty deep into this realm, I have pretty easy access to a lot of folks, so I don't really need to so much talk directly or get that person on a release. But a lot of people do, especially if they don't know that religious belief or faith traditions approach on certain topics.  Kimberley: Yeah. It's so wonderful to talk about this with you.  Justin: Thanks, Kimberley. Same here. Kimberley: Because I really do feel, I think post-COVID, there's more conversations with my clients about this. This could be totally just my clients, but I've noticed an increased longing, like you said, for that connection, the loneliness pandemic. Justin: Yeah, that's statistical.  Kimberley: Such a need for connection, such a need for community, such a need for that, like what is your North Star? And it can be, even if we haven't really talked about depression, it can be a really big motivator when you're severely depressed, right? Justin: Absolutely.  Kimberley: And this is where I'm very much like so curious and loving this conversation with my clients right now in terms of, where is it helpful? Where isn't it helpful? As you said, do you want to use this as a part of your practice here in treatment, in recovery? And what role does it play? I know I had mentioned to you, I'd even asked on Instagram and did a poll, and there were a lot of people saying, “It gave me a community. It immensely helps. It does keep me focused on the goal,” especially if it's done intentionally without letting fear take over. Is there anything you wanted to add to this conversation before we finish up?  Justin: Yeah, I guess two things. So, one is you talked about that, and we talked about a couple of those responses before we jumped on to recording. So, in summary, the responses were all across the board, like, “Ooh.” Let me know if I'm summarizing this well, but, “I have to be really careful. That can be really compulsive or not so much. I don't like to do that. I don't think it's necessary.” And then like, yeah, absolutely. This is really integral and really important. Is that a fair summary? Kimberley: Very much. Yep.  Justin: Okay. And so, I'm building this talk, Katie O'Dunne and Rabbi Noah Tile, ERP As a Spiritual Practice. We're giving here at the Faith and OCD Conference in April, if this is out by then. And in my section that I have, I'm covering the best practices of treatments, specifically ERP (exposure and response prevention) for OCD, and clinically, but then also from a faith standpoint, what do we consider with that? And there's this three-prong separation that I'm making. I'm not claiming a hold on the market with this, but I'm just observing. There's one category of a person who comes into therapy, and it's like, yeah, face stuff, whatever. It doesn't matter, or even almost antagonistic against it. Maybe they've been burnt, maybe they've been traumatized or abused with faith. Yeah, I get it. So, that first camp is there. But then there's also a second camp that people like to add on spiritual practices. They might mix and match, or they might follow a specific system, belief system. And whether it gets into mindfulness or meditation practices or fasting or any number of things, they find that there's a lot of benefit, but it's maybe not at the heart of it.  And then there's this third prong of folks that it is part and parcel of everything they do. And I work with all three. They come up in different ways. And sometimes people cycle between those different ones as well in treatments in the process.   Kimberley: I'm glad you said that. Justin: Yeah. And so, I just thought that was interesting when you pulled folks that had come up. Really, the second thing, and maybe this is at least my ending points unless we have anything else, you had mentioned to the audience that graciously, we had some tech issues. You all, it wasn't Kimberley's tech issues. It was Justin's tech issues. I spilled coffee on my computer like a week or two prior. It zapped. It's almost like you'd see in a movie, except it wasn't sparking. And I'm like, “Oh my goodness.” And it was in a client session. That was a whole funny story in of itself. And I'm like, “Oh my goodness.” It wasted my nice computer that I use for live streaming and all of that. And so I'm using my little budget computer at home. It's like, “Oh, hopefully it works.” And it just couldn't. It couldn't keep up with all the awesomeness that KQ's spitting out. And I shared with you, Kimberley, a little bit on the email, something deep really hit me after that. I felt a lot of shame when we tried back and forth for 30 minutes to do it, and my computer kept crashing, basically because it couldn't stand the bandwidth and whatever else was needed. And one might think it's just a technical thing, but I'd had some stuff happen earlier that week. I started to play in my church worship band, lead guitar, and there was something that I just wasn't able to break through, and I was just feeling ashamed of that. And it just really hit me.  And one of my key domains that I am growing in is my own perfectionism, as a subset of my own anxiety, and perfectionism is all about shame. And I love performance, I love to perform well. I like to say, “Oh, it's seeking excellence, and it's seeking the best for other people's good.” But deep down inside, perfectionism is this shame piece that anything shy of perfect is not good enough, and it just hit me. I felt like trash after that happened. I felt embarrassed. And you were so gracious, “It's okay, we'll reschedule.”  And so, I went for a walk, which I do. Clear my mind, get exercise. And I was just stuck on that. And one of the ways where my Christian walk really came in at that moment was, I started to do some cognitive restructuring. I started to -- for you all who don't know, it's looking at the bigger picture and being more realistic with negative thoughts. Like, “Ah, I can't believe this happened. I failed this,” as opposed to like, “Okay, we're rescheduling. It's all right. It actually gave us more time to think about it.” And I didn't know that then, but I could have said similar things.  I was doing a bunch of clinical tools that are helpful, but frankly, it wasn't until I just tapped into the bigger purpose of, one, not controlling the universe. I don't keep this globe spinning. I barely keep my own life spinning. Two, God loves me. And three, it's okay. It's going to work that out. Four, maybe there's something bigger, deeper going on that I don't know. And I can't guarantee that it was for this reason. I'm not going to put that in God's mouth and say that, “Oh yeah, okay, well, He gave us a couple more weeks to prepare.” I don't know. I really don't know. But it helped me to tap into like, “Okay, it's all right. It's really all right.”  And it took me about half a day, frankly. I'm slightly embarrassed to say, “No, I'm not embarrassed to say that as a clinician who works with this stuff. I have full days, I have full weeks. I have longer periods of time where I'm wrestling with this stuff.” And yeah, areas have grown. I've improved in my life for sure, but I'm just a hot mess some days.  Kimberley: But that's nice to hear too, because I think, again, clients have said it looks so nice to be loved by God all the time. That must be so nice. But it's not nice. I hate that you went through that. But I think people also need to know that people of faith also have to walk through really tough days and that it isn't the cure-all, that faith isn't the cure-all for struggles either. I think that's helpful for people to know. Justin: Yeah, that's right. So, thank you for letting me share a little bit of that. And yeah, the personalized example of why, at least for me, faith is important. If folks come into my office and they say, “Nah, no thanks,” okay, I'm going to try lightly, carefully, or just avoid it altogether if that's what they want. But oftentimes it's really at the center of, okay, purpose, meaning, direction, guidance, and okay, you want to do that? I'll roll up my sleeves, and let's go.  Kimberley: Yeah. See, I'm glad that it happened because you got to tell that beautiful story. And without that beautiful story, I would be less happy. So, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. I think I shared with you in an email like I've had to get so good at letting people down that I get it. And I love that you have that statement, like God loves me. That is beautiful. That's like sun on your face right there. I love that you had that moment.  Justin: Yeah, it comes up so much, so many times. In the Bible and even to -- like I wrote this article on Fear Not. So, the most common exhortation in all of the Christian Bible is fear not. So, one might think like, “Oh yeah, don't commit adultery,” or “Don't kill, don't murder,” or fill in the blank. Not even close. The most common exhortation in all of scriptures is actually fear not, and then love, various manifestations all throughout. I could go on, but I know we're out of time.  Kimberley: Well, what I will say is tell people where they can hear about you and even access that if they're interested. I love to read that article. So, where will people hear about you and learn more about the work you do? Please tell us everything. Justin: Yeah, sure. And I'll include some stuff for your show notes that you can send to the things referenced. And then JustinKHughes (J-U-S-T-I-N-K-H-U-G-H-E-S) .com is my base of operations where the contact, my email practice information, my blog is on there. And you can subscribe to my newsletter totally free. Totally, totally free. And I do a bunch of eBooks as well on there that are free. JustinKHughes.com/GetUnstuck to join one of four of the newsletters.  Other than that, that's where those announcements come out for different conferences. So, Faith and OCD, if this is out in time in April, but April every year, it's getting to be pretty big. We're getting hundreds of people attending. We're now in our fourth annual IOCDF (International OCD Foundation Conference), local conferences, various live streams. So, anyway, the website is that base, that hub, where you'll actually see any number of those different announcements. Thanks for asking.  Kimberley: I'm going to make sure this is out before the conference. Can you tell people where they can go to hear about the conference? Justin: Yeah. So, IOCDF.org. And then I think it's /conferences, but you can also type into Google conferences and there's a series of all sorts of different conferences going on. And this is the one that's dedicated to OCD and faith concerns. And just when you think that it's just one specific belief system, then prepare to be surprised because we've done a lot of work to have a diverse group of folks, sharing and speaking and covering a lot of things, ranging from having faith-specific or non-faith nuns, support groups. So, there are literally support groups if you're an atheist and you have OCD, and that's actually an important part of where you are in your journey. But for Christians, for Muslims, for Jewish, et cetera, et cetera, we're trying to really have any number of backgrounds supported along with talks and in broad general things, but then we get more specific into, “Hey, here's for clinicians. Hey, here's for the tips on making for effective practices.”  Kimberley: Yeah, amazing. And I'll actually be speaking on self-compassion there as well. So, I'm honored to be there. Thank you for being here, Justin. This was so wonderful.  Justin: Yeah, this really was. Thank you.

Choosing to start a podcast is not always a well-paved road, as Kristin discovers in this episode with Justin Thomas, the voice behind the "Becoming a Provider" podcast. Justin, a seasoned podcaster, generously shares the intricacies of his podcasting journey, shedding light on the challenges, excitement, and the profound impact podcasting can have on both the podcaster and their audience.   Kristin and Justin's conversation urges aspiring podcasters to embrace the adventure with authenticity and resilience.   Listen in as Kristin and Justin discuss: The  importance of being comfortable with the uncertainty that comes with the creative process of podcasting. How it's necessary to be okay with rebranding and not having everything figured out from the start. The  patience required in podcasting, emphasizing that understanding your message, finding alignment, and creating systems that work take time. Finding alignment with one's passion and purpose is a key factor in sustaining the momentum throughout the podcasting journey.   Remember, as a podcaster the journey is as significant as the destination. Justin Thomas's story exemplifies the power of authenticity, passion, and resilience in creating a podcast that not only entertains but also inspires. Podcasting is not just about the content you share; it's about the impact your voice can have on others.    Connect with Justin: https://www.clthomasfellowship.org/   Listen to Become a Provider Podcast   Quotes from Today's Episode: “It's a labor of love to have a podcast” - Justin “It wasn't until after episode 100 that I knew I was doing- Justin “Our vision is constantly changing”- Justin Are you looking for guidance? Contact Kristin for Podcast Coaching Looking for a community of podcasters? Join us in Podcast Membership  Join our FB Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/podcastcoachingforkingdomentrepreneurs Connect on IG: @kristinfieldschadwick  

In the first episode of Season 1, co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez speak with LitFriends Angela Flournoy & Justin Torres about their enduring friendship, writing in a precarious world, and chosen family. Links https://sites.libsyn.com/494238 www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://linktr.ee/litfriendspodcast https://www.instagram.com/litfriendspodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553436475678 https://justin-torres.com/ https://www.angelaflournoy.com/ https://www.asalisolomon.com/ Transcript Annie & Lito (00:01) Welcome to LitFriends! Hey LitFriends! Annie: Welcome to the show. Lito: Today we're speaking with the great writers and LitFriends, Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy. Annie: About chosen family, the dreaded second novel, and failure and success. Lito: So grab your bestie and— 
 Both: Get ready to get lit! Lito: That's so cute. Annie: It's cute. It's cute. We're cute! Lito: Cute, cute… So you had a question? Annie (00:29) I do. I have a question for you, Lito. Are you a cat or an ox? Lito: I mean, I would hope that the answer is so obvious that it almost bears not asking the question. I'm a cat. Annie: Okay, so Asali Solomon at The Claw asked us all, are you an ox or a cat? Lito: That's a great question. Annie: And as a writer... You know, the oxen are the people who work every day in the field, clock in, clock out, pay themselves a quarter an hour. I'm literally talking about me. The cats are people who are playful, exploratory, when the mood strikes them… Lito: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Annie Lito (01:26) So are you an ox or a cat? Lito: I'm a cat. I think anyone who's ever met me would say I'm a cat. Annie: How does that show up in your writing? Lito: Well, I mean, play is so important to me—she'll be on the  podcast in a couple of episodes, but when I first...was studying with Lucy, that was one of the first things that she spoke about in our class, and it kind of blew up my whole world. I had been writing for a long time already, but I hadn't thought of it as play, or there was some permission I needed or something. So the idea of play is really central to what I do and love. You wouldn't necessarily know that from the novel that I'm writing, which is sort of a dark book. Um, but it did start out with a lot of play and, I'm also, as you could probably just hear, my cat is coming into the room. Annie: Your cat is like, yes, Lito is us. RiffRaff is like, "Lito is cat." Lito: My cat Riff Raff, yes. Smarty pants. Um, he needed to join in on this conversation. Anyways, I'm a cat. I, I'm fickle when it comes to my work. Um. I don't want to work on my novel all the time, which is great because life has found so many ways to prevent it from happening. So in the new year, in 2024, it will be 7 years since I've started writing this book, and it's still, it's going to take a few more months at least. And what about you? Annie:  (03:09) I'm four oxen pulling a cart carrying all of my ancestors. I am very much the immigrant who says, get up, go do the work, come back, go do the work. And believe it or not, for me, there is a lot of joy in that. It's a... It allows, you know, it's Csikszentmihalyi's Flow, actually. So it doesn't feel like drudgery, usually. It does feel like joy. And I'm actually curious for all you LitFriends out there, if you're an ox or a cat. Lito: Yes, that's such a great idea. Please email us at litfriendspodcast@gmail.com, and tell us if you're a cat or an oxen or share on all your socials. Annie: Yeah, maybe we should poll them. That would be fun. Lito: That's a good idea. #LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: The reason I'm asking is because, of course, both Justin and Angela, who we speak with today in this episode, talk about what it's like to go for 10 years between books. "A banger a decade," is what Angela says. Lito: It's so funny. Annie: And you, you know, part of that, they have this very rich conversation about how, when you put everything into the first book, it takes a lot to get to the second book. But I think also there's a lot of play, right? And there's a lot of understanding that writing appears in different forms. And it might be the second novel, but it might be something else. Lito: For sure. I really like how they talk about— that the practice of writing is actually a practice of reading. And I think that any serious writer spends most of their time reading. And not just reading books, but texts of all kinds, in the world, at museums, as Justin points out, art, television, even the trashiest TV show has so much to offer. Annie: (05:12) And there's such a generosity to the way they think of themselves as artists, and also generosity in how they show up for one another as friends, and acknowledging when they fail one another as we as we see in this episode. And I remember my introduction to Justin when I was a grad student at Syracuse. I read We the Animals and fell in love with it, asked him to come do a reading at Syracuse, which was wonderful. And my wife who, at that time was my Bey-ancé, she was turning 30. We had no money. I couldn't buy her anything. Not in grad school. So I asked Justin if he would autograph his story, "Reverting to a Wild State," which is about a breakup in reverse, for Sara. Lito: Oh, I love that story. Annie: And he did, and he thought it was so beautiful, and I was like, "let me send it to you." He's like, "no, I've got it." He just shipped it to me. He didn't know me. We didn't know each other. Lito: He knew you because of books. He knew you because he loved literature. Annie: Yeah. And I remember that in it. I held on to it at a time when that act really mattered. Lito: One of the things I love about our interview with Justin and Angela is how much all of us talk about generosity, and how Justin and Angela display it in their conversation with each other and with us. And I'm just curious, how do you see that coming through also in Angela's work? Annie: (07:00) You know, I remember her talking about how the idea for the book began with this image of people moving around a house at night. This is The Turner House. And she says this image opens up a lot of questions. And one of the things that really stays with me about that book is how masterful she is at shifting perspective, particularly between siblings, which I find to be such a challenge for writers, right? Like your siblings are the people who are closest to you and sometimes also the farthest away. And she gets that so intimately on the page. And of course, in our conversation with Angela and Justin, one of the things they talk about is being family, essentially being siblings. And that's one of the most powerful echoes of the conversation. They talk about being a chosen family and having to choose again and again and again. And that spirit of consciousness and connection, I feel that very much in Angela's work, and of course in Justin's too. Lito: Oh Annie, I choose you again and again, I choose you. Annie: Oh, I choo-choo-choose you! Lito: So stupid. Annie: (08:05) After the break, we'll be back with Justin and Angela. Annie: (08:24) And we're back. Lito: I just wanted to mention, too, that we spoke with Angela and Justin in October during the writer's strike in Hollywood, and just before Justin's new book, Blackouts, was released. And just last week, as you're hearing this podcast. Annie: Just last week. Lito: Just last week! He won the National Book Award for a book that took him 10 years to write. Annie: Absolutely. Annie: Justin Torres is the author of Blackouts, a novel about queer histories that are hidden, erased and re-imagined. Blackouts won the 2023 National Book Award for fiction. His debut novel, We the Animals, has been translated into 15 languages and was adapted into a feature film. He was named National Book Foundation's Five Under 35. His work appears in the New Yorker, Harper's, Granta, Tin House, Best American Essays, and elsewhere. He lives in Los Angeles and teaches at UCLA. Lito: Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, won the VCU-Cabel First Novel Prize, and was also a finalist for both the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and an NAACP Image Award. Angela is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and her nonfiction has appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Angela is a faculty member in the low residency MFA program at Warren Wilson College. Lito: (10:36) I'm so grateful that you guys found time to meet with us today, and I've thought about you two as friends since I think this is like the first time you've done something like what you did in 2017, the "Proper Missive"—do you remember that—you published in Spook? And it stuck with me. I was like a big, nerding out, and I bought it and I have it still. And I thought about that. And Justin, you know that you're very personal— there's a personal connection with me because I found your book on my way to my first master's program. No one had said anything about it to me where I was coming from, and it was really great. And Angela, I first found your book. I was so amazed and moved by the talk you don't remember at Syracuse. Angela: I don't remember the lunch. I remember being at Syracuse, and there being a talk, yes. Lito: You inscribed your book, "Here's to Language," which I think is hilarious and also really sweet. And I think we must have said something about language at some point. But anyways, thank you so much both for being here. Justin: Thank you for having us. Angela: Very happy to be here. Lito: So let's start. Why don't you tell us about your friend in a few sentences? So Angela, you can go first. Tell us about Justin. Angela: (11:23) Justin is the first person that I met in Iowa City when I was visiting and deciding if I was going to go there, but was I really deciding no? I'll let you go there. But that I could like, deciding whether I would be miserable while I was there. And so Justin was the first person I met. And feel like Justin is five years older than me. It has to be said.  Justin: Does it? Angela: When I think about people, and I think about like mentors, I have other like amazing mentors, but like, I think that there's really something special about somebody who some people might think is your peer, but like, in a lot of ways you've been like looking up to them and, um, that has been me with Justin. I think of him as like a person who is not only, he's a Capricorn, and he has big Capricorn energy. I am an Aquarius. I do not want to be perceived— Justin: I don't agree with any of this. But I don't know. I don't follow any of this. Angela: But Justin is in the business of perceiving me and also gathering me up and helping me do better. My life is just always getting better because of it. I'm grateful for it. Annie: That is beautiful, all of that is beautiful. Justin, tell us about Angela. Justin: I can't follow that, that is so...  Angela: Acurate! Justin: You're so prepared! You're so sweet! I'm so touched! Angela: Only a Capricorn would be touched by somebody saying that you perceive them and gather them up and make them feel better. Ha ha ha! Justin: I like that, I do like that. Let's see, yeah. I mean, I think that when we met, I had already been in Iowa for a year, and within two seconds, I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends, and you don't know it yet. But I knew it intensely. And yeah, I think that one of the, I agree that I think we keep each other honest, I think. I think that one of the things that I just so appreciate about Angela is that, you know, yeah, you see my bullshit. You put up with it for like a certain amount of time, and then you're like, all right, we need to talk about the bullshit that you're pulling right now. And I love it, I love it, love it, love it, because I don't know, I think you really keep me grounded. I think that, yeah, it's been really (14:09) wonderful to have you in my life. And like, our lives really, really kind of pivoted towards one another. You know, like we've, it was not just like, oh, we were in grad school and then, you know, whatever, we have similar career paths, so we stayed friends or whatever. It's like, we became family. And, you know, every, every kind of major event in either of our lives is a major event, a shared major event, right? And that's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine my life without you. I honestly can't. Angela: Likewise. I gave birth in Justin's home. Annie: Oh! Sweet! Justin: In my bathroom, over there. Right over there. Lito: Whoa, congratulations, and also scary(?)! Angela: It's in a book I'm writing, so I won't say so much about it, but it was a COVID home birth success story. And yeah, like family. Lito: Was that the plan or did that just happen? Angela: Well, It wasn't the plan and then it was the plan. Justin: Yeah, exactly. COVID wasn't the plan. Angela: No. Justin: The plan was Angela was gonna sublet my place with her husband and she was pregnant. And then, COVID happened Angela: There were a lot of pivots. But we did, it was like enough of a plan where we got his blessing to give birth in his home. Justin: It wasn't a surprise. Angela: It was a surprise that it was in the bathroom, but that's a different story. Annie: You blessed that bathroom is all I can say. Angela: Yeah. Lito: We'll be right back. Back to the show. Annie: (16:22) Well, I want to come back to what Lido was saying about proper missives. I love the intimacy. I mean, I know you weren't writing those to one another for kind of public consumption, but the intimacy and the connection, it's so moving. And I was thinking about, you know, Justin, you, you talk about Angela as kind of pointing the way to beauty and helping you see the world anew or differently. And Angela, you talked about how Justin encourages you to take up space as a political act. I'm just wondering what else you all have taught one another. What has your LitFriend taught you? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we did write that for public consumption. Angela: Yes, it was the editor-in-chief of Spook, Jason Parham. Spook is relaunching soon, so look out for it. He just told me that, like, the other day. And he's moving to L.A. So many things are happening. But he reached out to us and was really interested in—he's a big archives guy and like how—he thought it was valuable the way that writers of past generations, they have these documents of their letters to each other, to their editors, to their friends, to their enemies, and how this generation, because we're just texting through it, we don't really have that. And so that was really just the extent of the assignment, was to write letters to each other, which, of course, we still ended up using email to do. But we really tried to keep it in the spirit of a letter and not just something you kind of dash off. Justin: And we were not living in the same place at that time. Angela: No. Justin: So it was, it did feel kind of— Angela: I was in Provincetown, I think. Justin: Yeah, I remember I was on a train when I was, when I was doing— I can't remember where I was going or, but I remember a lot of it was— or a few of those correspondences— because it went over days, weeks. Lito: Yeah, you were going to Paris. Angela: Oh. Glamorous train. You were on the Eurostar. Justin: Wow. Annie: You basically said the same thing then, Angela. Call him out. Justin: (18:32) Yeah, and I think that what I was saying was that one of the things I loved about that was it really forced us to dive deeper, right? To kind of— Sometimes we can stay very much on the surface because we talk every day. And so it was really nice to see, not just what was kind of on your mind in the background, but also how you were processing it, how you kind of made language and meaning out of it. I was just like... I don't know, it's like, I know you're so deep, but then we also love to be shallow. And so it's so nice to be like, to connect from that deep place. Annie: One of the things that I'm so drawn to about both of your work is how you write about family, the way it shapes us, the way it wounds us, what it means to watch family members suffer. You talk about it as the question of the donut hole in "Proper Missive. Angela, I remember you were writing about your father. When you were writing about him, you talk about, "the assumption that a flawed person should be subject to anyone's definition." And Justin, I'm thinking quite broadly in terms of, you know, chosen or logical family. One of my favorite pieces that I teach in my creative non-fiction class is "Leashed," and you write there, "my friends, those tough women and queers were all too sharp and creative for their jobs. If I'm nostalgic, it's not because I was happy in those precarious years, but because I was deeply moved by our resourcefulness." I'm just wondering how you think about, you know, (20:09) family, logical family, and how your lit friendship fits into this? Justin: Who's going first? Angela: You. Justin: Let's see, I think that it's such a great question. I actually like, I use that little short kind of tiny little piece that you referenced. I use that in my book, in Blackouts, that's coming out. I think that, which is a book about chosen family as well, and lineages, and what do you do when you feel there's some kind of disruption, right? That like if you're estranged from your biological family or you know or you just need these connections, these kind of queer connections to and other ways of thinking about family that are not related to (21:06) bloodlines. Like we said earlier, we are family, and we've known that for quite a while. It was something that, I don't know. You know, it's like something that I don't think you ever really need to say. It's just you know who your people are. And I think that, and I think that it's a choice that you make and remake again and again and again. And that is something that is, I don't know, it's so exceptional, right? Compared to bloodlines and biological family, which can be hugely important and bring a lot of meaning to people. But that you're choosing this again and again. Like almost like the kind of past tense chosen family is like, it's like a little bit inaccurate, right? It's like the family you choose, and keep choosing, and you're choosing right now, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Angela: Just that the continuity of it, not in the sense that it's always going to be there, but that like you are, you're like an active, uh, engager like in it. In it, I just think about, I think about that, like, uh, at this point we know each other for 14 years. And the way that there's just necessarily we're not the same people but you have to keep, and you have to keep engaging, and you have to keep figuring out how to navigate different things and I think particularly as like LitFriends there's the huge thing you have to navigate which is especially if you're friends before that you're just like some kids who got into this program that people think are fancy, but you're just like, anything can happen, right? From there to being the capital— going from just like lowercase w, "writer," to capital A, "Author." And like what that, I mean, I've seen many a friendship where that is the rupture. And so particularly figuring out, like, how are you going to navigate that, and how are you going to still be in each other's lives. (23:16.33) Um, one thing I think about, as a person who thinks about family a lot is, with your family, sometimes you can like harm one another, and you'll just take some time off, or you'll just be like, that's how they are. But with the family that you continue to choose, you have to, ideally, you gotta do something about it. You have to actually have the engagement, and you have to figure out how to come out on the other side of it. And that is something that is harder and really in so many ways, all the more precious because of it. And it requires a kind of resilience and also just like a trust. And again, because Justin, you know, likes to gather me up, there's been a few times when I was like, "Oh, no, like, we've got beef, what's gonna happen?" And Justin is like, "we're family, what's gonna happen is we're gonna have to talk about this beef, and then move on." Justin: Yeah. And I think that I think that also you have, you're really good at reminding me to be responsible, right? That just because I've made this commitment, in my mind, right, Like we're committed forever. Like we're family. Like we can't, we can't break up, right? Like it's just like, that's just the way it is. It doesn't get me off the hook of showing up in other ways and being responsible and like, you know, that I can be quite flaky. Angela: I mean, that's just, you've been in L.A. long enough. It's just, you're just becoming native. Justin:  I think I always don't, I don't wanna disappoint you. I don't want you ever to feel like you were looking around for support, and I wasn't there. Angela: Do people cry on this podcast? Annie: We time it. Right at the half hour. Justin: There's been a few moments when I feel it, when I've felt (25:21) maybe that wasn't there enough, you know? And, you know, and if, you know, and like, I don't know, that's when you know it's the real stuff because it like keeps me up at night. You know, I'm just like, wow, you know, what does she need? What can I give? How can I be there? And yeah. Angela: Wow.  There you are. Justin: Here we are. Annie: Lito and I are also family, and it sort of feels never too late. But what you're saying about kind of the like renewing your vows, renewing your commitment over and over, it feels very, very true. Lito: Very true. Yeah yeah yeah. Annie: And life-saving, you know, like life affirming. Lito: It feels real. Justin: Yeah. Look at us. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of you guys too. Lito: It's a love fest over here. Angela: Thanks for having it. Annie: We'll be right back. Annie: (26:26) Welcome back. Angela: Also, particularly again, thinking about a lot of the friends that you have, they're not necessarily also sometimes colleagues. And I think that one thing that Justin really modeled, because I didn't have anything to be transparent about, was just transparency about things. Not just how much he's getting paid for things, but just like what was worth it, what's not worth it, like what is just the way something is and you can like take it or leave it. And I think that in the beginning it was more of me kind of taking that information because I didn't have anybody offering me anything. But now I feel like it's really an exchange of information. And I think that there are people who I love, like, in this industry, if you will, who that's just not our relationship. That doesn't mean we don't have great friendships, but like that is something that like if I'm broke, he knows I'm broke. I never feel the need to pretend and hide or like, you know, and likewise, like if he don't got it, I know he don't got it. It's not, it's just, it just, and I feel like that is something also that is a, it's, um, I think it's important. Especially because you write a book, you know, it does well. And then there are some years in between before you write another. Some of us in this room, maybe take a decade. All of us in this room, maybe take a decade. But yeah, so just really being able to be, to feel like you can still show up at any point in whatever you're doing creatively. Justin: (28:16) Because this is about literary friendships, I think that it's, yeah, there's those two sides, right? There's the business side, which can cause a lot of friction, especially if, you know, things go differently for different books and people have different trajectories. I mean, you're like, you know:  you've surpassed.  Angela: I don't know if that's true.  Justin: But there's that like business side of it. And then there's the literary side as well. And I think that sometimes if it just slides too much into talking about—it's like we could both be selling sprockets, right? There's so much minutiae. It's like we could talk about contracts and whatever and like gigs and da-da-da ad nauseam. And we have to remember to talk about literary side, the literature, the work, the sentences, what we're reading in order to kind of sustain the literary quality of a literary friendship, right?  Angela: One thing I remember you told me, I don't know, ages ago that I thought at the time like oh he's gassing me he's practicing things that he says his students tell me—but now I realize that it is also one of the reasons why our friendship has sustained is you were like ,you know, we can talk about whether a book is successful in 800 ways, but we have to try to remember to just be fans, to be fans of books, of literature, of people writing. And I think that is something that I not only try to practice, but that's something that I think is really foundational to relationship. Everyone can be a hater, and it can be fun sometimes, but like… (30:08) We really do like want to put each other on to the books that we're like excited about. Like I remember when you read or reread Seasons of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih, and I hadn't read it before.  I mean, it's like a, it's a seminal or really a really famous African text, but I had never read it. Or like Maryse Condé, like I hadn't read it as like a real adult and being able to just like talk about that and know that there's a person who's, you know, you could be in polite conversation with somebody who you think is really smart and then you're like you know what I decided I wanted to reread—I don't know—something a person might wanna reread and they're like, Oh, what are you gonna do next? You gonna read a Moby Dick? And you're like, Oh damn, they just shamed me. You know, they just shamed me for being a nerd. But that's not gonna happen here. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Annie: I do wanna go back to something you were alluding to. Angela, you were talking quite openly about it, too, which is shifting from writer to capital A author and the pressure that comes with that.  For the two of you, you had incredible well-deserved success early in your career, but I imagine that doesn't come without a lot of sleepless nights, right? I'm thinking about an interview I heard with Ta-Nehisi Coates where he talks about his friends not reaching out thinking, like, He's good, like, You blew up, you're good. And talking about actually what a lonely position that can be. I'm just wondering, you know, how you've both managed to take care of one another through those highs and lows, or being on that track alongside one another.  And even, you know, competition between lit friends. Justin: (32:13) Yeah, I mean, I think that we're just kind of, like our dispositions: we're very lucky in that I think we, before we met, it wasn't something that we like decided on. It was just before we met, I think we're just boosters, right. We're like, The people we love, their success is our success, right? And I think that's one of the reasons to where we are such good friends, it's because we share that, right? So that I think makes it slightly easier as far as like the competition side of things goes. I think that if it really does feel like you're a family and you're community and like you understand that this is a kind of shared win. I don't know, it's hard to talk about though because we both got really lucky.  Angela: Yeah.  Justin: You know, I mean, who wants to hear from people who got really lucky with their first books talking about how hard it is? You know what I mean?  We just, we didn't have, we didn't have any kind of that disparity between— Angela: Yeah, I'm sure, but—I would say even so—if we had different dispositions, we might be trying to split hairs about who got what. But I think for me—and Justin and I grew up very differently in some ways, but I think we grew up from a class background similarly, and we're both like, We're not supposed to be here, like, what can we get? Like, what can we get? And like, who has the information to help us get it? And so I've never been like, why is he in that room when I'm not in that room? I'm like, give me the intel about the room. That might be the closest I ever get to being in there, but I need to know like what's going on in there. And that has, I think, been the way that I just view any success of anybody that I know. that I feel like I can ask those questions to is like, not necessarily like, oh, can you put me on? Like now that you have something, can I have some of it? But just like, just information, just like, what's it like? And that to me is really useful. But also I think that one thing, when you have people, not just Justin, but like other friends and mentors of mine, when you have people who are honest and upfront about whatever kind of success they've had, you… you just realize that there's a lot of different ways to feel successful, right? Because I have friends who, to me, I'm like, they made it, but they're not convinced they have. And I have other friends that, like, to the outside world, they'd be like, wow, they have a little book, nobody cares. But they feel like they did it, you know? And so I realized it's so much about disposition also. Lito:   Do you feel that a lot about being each other's boosters? I mean, obviously it's about your personalities and who you are as people. I'm also curious how much of that, like Angela, you said you were a gatecrasher. You feel like a gatecrasher a lot. I don't know. What are your thoughts on intersectionality? How does it inform your work and your friendship? How does it affect how you boost each other? I'm also curious if there's something particular about lit friendships that intersect with intersectionality and those categories, especially for people who form intimate relationships with men.  Justin:   Wait, say more.  Like how do blowjobs come in?   Angela:  (36:01.171). I was like one thing we have in common is— Lito: More like, less blow jobs, more like having to deal with men and the various ways they, you know, respond to patriarchy.  Justin: Yeah, I think you kind of said it, right? I think that there's something about hustling and figuring out, like, how am I gonna find some stability in this world.  And I mean we have nominated each other for every single thing that there is. If either one of us gets a chance.  Angela: Till the end of time.  Justin:   Till the end of time, right? And it's just, and I think that, and we've shared all information about everything. There's no, and I think that that's kind of like that quote that you read before, right, about this nostalgia and feeling nostalgic, not for the precarity, but for the way that it bonds people, right? The way that the precarity, like you pull, you share resources, you pull resources, you come together and you talk shit and you don't let people get too down in the dumps and depressed. And you're like, no, we're going to do this. We're going to get ourselves out of this hole and we're going to pull each other up. And, and that I think is like, that's, that's the secret, I think.  Angela: Are you answering the question about men?  Justin:   Oh, men!  Angela: And dealing with men.  Justin: I love that I was just like, oh, you're talking about blow jobs. But no, you were talking about patriarchy.  Lito: Same thing, really.  Annie: In the room I'm in, we do not think there's a difference.  Justin: It's fascinating, right? Because when we were at Iowa together, I remember some of the critiques I got from some of the men, some of the straight men, some of the white straight men, was about a kind of provincialism to my writing, right? That what I was writing about was small and minor and just about particularities of identity and that it wasn't broad and expansive and it wasn't universal. That was expected. That was the kind of critique that was expected. The world has changed so much and so quickly in the last 15 years. It's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because that kind of thing, I wasn't, I didn't feel indignant. Maybe I felt a little.  Angela: Yeah, you just, but you just like knew you were going to ignore them. Like, you know, like, but no, but you didn't feel like you were going to, like it was worth, except there were some instances we're not going to get into details, but like, it didn't feel like it was worth spending, like unpacking it or trying to call them out. You just were like, Oh, boop, you're over here. Like, you're not.  Justin: Yeah, yeah. Like, I've been hearing this shit my whole life. Like, it wasn't like, there's no space for this kind of thing in the workshop. I was like, this is the world. This is unexpected. But now I don't think that would fly, right?  Angela:   No. I think maybe in like 70% of workshop spaces that I have been in. Well, I guess I've been running them. But like, I just don't, but like also just the disposition of the students is that they assume that somebody is going to like say something or push back on that. But also I guess maybe more broadly the idea of when you say intersectionality, what do you mean exactly? Lito: I think I wanted to keep it open on purpose. But I think I mean the ways that all of these different identities that we take up and that are imposed upon us, how they intersect with one another, race, class, et cetera. Yeah. Angela: I think one of the reasons why Justin and I gravitated toward each other probably in the beginning and why we ended up in Spook is because I think that—which maybe is also not happening 15 years from then—there is a way that back then, there was a way that even your identity could be flattened, right? Like you're Puerto Rican, which means that you are like a lot of things, right? One of those things like, one of it's like we're both diasporic people, right? But that's one of the things that I think a lot of people would not necessarily think is like a kinship between us, but like I've seen pictures of Justin's cousins. I know I'm giving Primo over here. Like I know what I'm doing. And like that's one way that I think that our relationship feels like, like we just felt like kin when we first met because of that. I think that there's just a lot of ways that in a lot of spaces in this country, you're just not allowed to like have all of those parts of you in the room because people just don't understand it or they do, but they just don't want you to be that also.  Justin: It's not convenient.  Angela: Right. Which is why I was like, of course, Jason would ask you and I to be in Spook, which is a magazine that's a black literary magazine. Cause Jason gets it. Shout out to Jason again.  Justin: I can't believe he's moving to L.A., that's so exciting.  Angela: Supposedly like any day now, he's just gonna arrive. There's just ways that when you find your people, you don't have to always separate these parts of you and you don't always have to keep reminding them also, they sort of understand. But also parts of you change obviously and the way that you feel about your identity changes and your people will embrace that and keep, you know, keep making space for that too. Justin: Making space.  Annie: We'll be back in a moment with Angela and Justin. Lito: (42:22) Hey Lit Fam, we hope you're enjoying our conversation with Justin and Angela. We are quite awed by their thoughtful discussion and moved by their deep love for each other and their art. If you love what we're doing, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much to continue bringing you great conversations like this week, after week. Thank you for listening. Annie: (42:59.178) Back to our interview with Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy.  Lito: Justin, you have your sophomore book. How do you feel about it? Are you going to write a sequel for We the Animals like you talked about at one point? Angela, same question. Are there sequels coming forth for you, Angela, to Turner House, or are you moving on to something else? Or you sort of briefly mentioned another book about, uh, I remember you mentioning at some point a book about friends, four female friends, if I remember correctly. Anyways, what's coming next?  Annie: Yeah, and I wanna know about the dreaded second novel because I feel like that's where I'm at. I feel like that's where a lot of writers get stuck. Jutin: Second novel's awful. I mean, you think the first one's bad. You think it takes everything that you have inside of you and then you're like, oh, I've gotta do it again. And yeah, I don't know. I really had a very hard time with it. And I mean, nobody knows better than Angela. I really, really didn't feel like I was up to the task. I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew I wanted to kind of change the way I write and be a different kind of writer, but I just felt like I was falling on my face.  Even after it was done and out until like last week, I was just, I just felt anxiety about it, and I felt really neurotic and I was being really neurotic. And I remember the other night we were hanging out and drinking and maybe there was some mushroom chocolate involved. I was just, like I was just on my bullshit and Angela was just like stopped and she was just like, What is it gonna take to make you happy? Like what is it gonna take? Like look around. And it was like, it was a really good intervention. But then it also led to this conversation about happiness, right? And about like whether that is the goal, right? Like feeling kind of tortured and, and feeling like this gap between what you want for your book and your own capabilities. And that never goes away. You just live in this, in this torturous phase. And like, maybe it's about just coming to acceptance with that, rather than striving for happiness. I don't know. But it's still ringing in my ear. What is it gonna take?  Lito: It's a great question.  Angela:   Maybe some projection, I don't know, on my part.  I am still working on that novel. It's due at the end or at the beginning of next year. It's gonna come out in 2025. You know, God willing. And... similarly the second novel, I think it depends on your disposition, but I think both of us are very interested in and task ourselves with having real skin in the game with what we right. That means sometimes you got to figure out where you get that skin from.  Lito: There's only so much.  Angela: Like, if you played yourself for the first book, then it's gonna take a while. And when I think about, like, when I try to count for the years, I don't know I could have done it any quicker. Like, I just don't know. And I don't think that's gonna be the case for every book, but I do think between that first and that second, especially, were you 30? Where were you? I was 30, yeah. And then I was 30, too. I was 30 also when my book came out. You're just a baby.  You're just a baby.  Lito: Do you fall into the trap of comparing yourself to other people? Well, they wrote a book in two years and I— Justin:  (47:07) Yeah, sure. I mean, I also like compare myself to people who took longer like that feels good. That feels good.  Angela: Listen, I'm like Deborah Eisenberg. Just a banger every decade. That's it. That's all I owe the world. A banger a decade. Lito: A banger a decade. I like that. I like comparing myself to Amy Clampitt, who wrote her first collection of poetry, like in her 70s or something and had some success.  Justin: I generally wish people would slow down. I mean, I get that sometimes there's just like an economic imperative, right? But if you're lucky enough that, I don't know, you get a teaching job and you can slow down, why not slow down, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there are a lot of books in this world. And the books that somebody spent a lot of time over, whether or not they are my tastes—I'm just so appreciative of the thoughtfulness that went in.  You can feel it, right? That somebody was really considering what they're building versus dashing it off. They should slow down, if they can.  Angela: But I also feel like we need both kinds. There are people who I appreciate their books, their kind of time capsules of just like, this is the two years, this is where I was. I think of Yiyun. We need an Yiyun Li and we need an Edward P. Jones. Edward P. Jones, you're gonna get those books when you get the books. And Yiyun Li, every couple years, you're gonna get something that, to me, I still, they still feel like really good books, but they're also just like, this is where she is right here, and I respect it and I appreciate it. Everybody can't be one or the other, you know?  Justin: You're right, you're right, you're right. It's much fairer.  Annie: She's someone who, I mean, you know, seems to have changed so much even within that time period. And we had her on a couple of episodes ago and yeah, she's just on fire. She's amazing.  Justin: (49:06) And people speed up as well, right? Because her first couple of books, there were big gaps. And then same thing with like Marilynne Robinson, right? She had massive gaps between books. And then suddenly it starts to speed up. And they're coming out every year, every two years. Yeah. Annie: It's the mortality.  Lito: Well, and life, well, I think lifestyle too, right? Like what you do, how busy you are and what you do out in the world. Like going out and meeting people and being gay in the world, that takes up time.  Annie: And your work has had other lives too. I mean, I'm thinking about how We the Animals was adapted to film in that beautiful, intimate portrait. And I know, you know, Angela, you've been working with HBO and some projects as well. I'm just, just wondering if you want to talk about your work in these other media, how it's been, and even thinking about the strikes, right? Like the WGA-SAG strikes and how that has been on the ground too.  Angela:  Very happy that the strike is over. Solidarity to our SAG-AFTRA brothers and sisters still out there. I passed them on the way here on Sunset. I did honk, wish I was out there today. But I think that for me, it's just like a bonus. Like I, especially now, there's a way that right now writers will say things that are a little snobby like, Oh, I could never be in a writer's room, the group project, man. But like when now that I know so many TV writers living here and I've met so many over the past 146 days on the line, I realized that it is, you just have to be so nimble and agile and you have to also be so not precious about story. But no less smart. A lot of things might end up on TV dumb, but I don't want to blame the writers for that. Now that I really have a real understanding of just how the sausage is made and just how big of like a game of telephone it is—and how much you have to relinquish control because at the end of the day it's like you're making this text, it's literary, but it's also like an instruction manual. It's a completely different way to think about writing. And I don't know how long I live in LA or how many like of those kind of projects I will do but I'm really grateful. And one reason I'm really grateful is because doing those projects and having those years where people thought I wasn't doing anything, but I was actually writing so much and like doing so many revisions.  It helped me realize that there is a way that I blame MFAs for making us like feel very siloed. And like, if you're supposed to be a fiction writer, that's the only thing that you do that's like an output that anyone cares about. But it's so new—like, how many screenplays did Joan Didion write? Like James Baldwin wrote screenplays. Before, it was just like, you're writing, you're writing. Like it's all, it all is the job. And I think every time a poet friend of mine like puts out a novel, sends it to me, read, sends it for me to read—first off, they usually are very good. But then also I'm just like, yes, fiction writers, I think, I don't know who did it. I blame graduate programs, but they have put themselves in this small box. Justin: But yeah, I mean, it's like the MFA, a lot of them feel like teacher training programs and that the next step is teaching. But if you don't want to teach the old models, definitely like you just write for TV. Angela: You write for film, you write for magazines, newspapers, you just do the thing. And that has felt very freeing to me, to just see meet more people who are doing that and also to allow myself to do that. Justin (52:49) Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the process of having my film—the book made into a film. I think I had an unusual experience with that. Like a lot of times the author is cut out or, you know, is not deferred to in any way, or nobody's inviting you in. I think because it was such a low budget film, and the director is just a really wonderful person who is incredibly collaborative.  He wanted me involved in every single part of it, and so I loved that. I think, I don't know, I think I might wanna adapt Blackouts for a play. I've been thinking about it lately. Angela: You should. I mean, in so many ways, it is kind of like a two-hander. Yeah. I could see it. Yeah.  Justin: A two-hander. Look at you ready to lingo. No, that's some biz lingo.  Lito: That's going to be the title of this podcast. It's a two-hander. How has art shaped your friendship? And I mean, art, like other genres, we've talked about getting out of the box of fiction, but what movies or art or music do you love to talk about or do you just talk about everything or anything that you're watching and how have other genres affected your work? Like, do you listen to music? Are you influenced by visual art?  Angela: You wanna talk about things you watch on television? You ready to come out in that manner?  Justin: No.  Lito: You watch lots of TV? No. Are you a Housewives person?  You're a Housewives watcher, aren't you?  Justin: Housewives is too highbrow for me. I have like a…I have a secret fetish that is mine. Angela: You have to keep some things for yourself. Justin: Yes. But it's just like, that's how I turn my brain off when my brain needs to be turned off.  Annie: I will wait another decade for that story. Justin: I also like culture and high art as well. You write about art a lot. You do profiles. Angela: I do. I wish I did it more. It's just everything, you know, takes time. I think for me, like when I think about—I just am learning different ways to make a life out of, you know, out of your mind and out of art. And one thing that I've learned when I talk to, like visual artists, particularly, is this idea—I think poets also have this—but fiction writers, a friend of mine actually, a poet, recently asked me, like, how does a fiction writer get a practice, like a practice of writing? Practicing their craft in a way that like a visual artist, you know, they go to the studio practice or poet might have a practice. And I don't believe necessarily that sitting down to write every, you know, three hours every day is the same thing. Because like if you don't know what you're writing, but I really do think that practice is more grounded in reading.  Justin: And reading, I think reading literature for sure, but also reading the world, right? And that's what you do when you go to an exhibit or you go to a museum or you go to a concert or whatever, right, you're like reading, you know, and you're reading the experience, you're reading for other things.  Lito: Is there anything you're both fans of that you both talk about a lot? Any artists or musicians or movies? Justin (56:26) You know, I think that we have some lowbrow sharing tastes. But I think that our highbrow, I don't know. We don't talk a lot about our pursuant— I think I'm into a lot of, like when I was looking at, when I was putting together Blackouts, I was looking at a lot of archival photos and like the photos of Carl Van Vechten, I just, I'm obsessed with…  I've been spending a lot of time with them, thinking about him and his practice. I think that, you know, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm like a whatever, what's that horrible term? Culture vulture?  Angela: I don't think that's what you wanna say. But I know what you mean, yeah.  Justin: Yeah, I am democratic in my tastes. I'm just like, I like everything. We don't have a lot of shared tastes, I don't think.  Angela: Um... No?  Justine: No.  Annie:  I sort of love that. I mean, it, um, the friendship, belies, that, you know, it's only a bonus in that way. I think Lito and I also have very different tastes. There's something kind of lovely about that. Lito: I remember Annie making fun of me for not being hardcore enough in my taste in hip-hop. Annie:    I guess we're putting our dirt out there too.  Lito:   We'll be right back with the Lightning Round. Annie:   Ooh, Lightning Round. Annie: (58:12) Thank you both for talking with us today. This was really wonderful. We really feel the honesty and warmth in your friendship and we're so appreciative that you're sharing that with us today and with all of our LitFriends. We're excited for both your books and we're so grateful you spent the last hour with us.  Angela: That was a pleasure.  Justin: Thank you. Lito: All right, we're gonna we— wrap up the podcast with a Lightning Round, just a few questions. We will ask the question and then I guess we'll do it this way. When I ask the question, Angela, you can answer. And when Annie asks the question, Justin, you answer first. Sorry, first answer first. You're both going to answer the question. What is your first memory?  Angela:  My sister roller skating through sprinklers and falling and hitting her head. Justin: I literally have no idea. I, yeah, I don't know. It's a blackout.  Angela: How many times have you said that?  Lito:  Very on brand.  Angela: You've had a long book tour. Justin: I'm practicing.  Annie: Who or what broke your heart first?  Angela: Is it too deep to say my daddy? I know.  Justin: I was going to say my daddy.  Angela: That's why we're friends.  Justin: I know. It's so sad.  Angela: (59:37) Daddy issues.  Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history?  Angela: Toni Morrison.   Justin: Yeah, maybe Manuel Puig. He seemed really cap and hilarious. And also a brilliant genius.  Angela: I need Toni Morrison to tell me how to raise my child. And to still write books. Someone help me. Annie: What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next, maybe something collaborative or something different or a story they haven't told yet?  Justin: I mean, I think I would love to see you actually write something kind of ekphrastic. Like I'd love to see you write about art. I love when you write about art. I love your thoughts about art and art makers. So maybe, like, a collection of essays about culture. I'd love that. Angela: Besides this two-handed, this play, which I would love for you to write. Maybe there's more, I mean, there's more voices in the book than two, though. So it doesn't have to be. Justin is a poet. I have said this since the beginning. I'm ready for this collection.  Justin: Never occurred to me in my life. Angela:   That is not true.  Justin:   Well, writing a collection. Angela:   Okay, well, I would love for you to write a collection of poetry.  Justin:   Maybe I will. Maybe you just gave me permission, as the children say.  Angela:   Mm-hmm. I know.  Lito: If you could give any gift to your LitFriend without limitations, what would you give them?  Angela: I would give him a house with a yard and a pool.  Justin: That's what I want.  Angela: In a city he wants to live in. That's the key.  Lito: That's the hard part. Justin:  (01:01:35) Um, I would give Angela time to be with her thoughts and her craft. I guess what does that involve?  Angela:   This is because I call myself a busy mom all the time.  Justin: You are a busy mom. Angela: (01:02:08) Thank you, that's a nice gift. Time is the best.  Justin: I mean, it's not as good as a house with a pool.  Angela: I know, because I can use my time as wisely as possible and yet—no pool. Lito: Well, that's our show. Annie & Lito: Happy Friendsgiving! Annie: Thanks for joining us, Lit Fam. Lito:   We'll be back next week with our guests, Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth. Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.  Lito:   And I'm Lito Velázquez.  Annie:   Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton. Lito:   Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.  Annie:   Lizette Saldaña is our marketing director.  Lito:   Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.  Annie:   And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez. This was LitFriends, Episode One.

Welcome episode 227 of the Cloud Pod podcast - where the forecast is always cloudy! This week your hosts are Justin, Jonathan, Matthew and Ryan - and they're REALLY excited to tell you all about the 161 one things announced at Google Next. Literally, all the things. We're also saying farewell to EC2 Classic, Amazon SES, and Azure's Explicit Proxy - which probably isn't what you think it is.  Titles we almost went with this week:

Welcome episode 222 of The Cloud Pod Podcast - where the forecast is always cloudy! This week we take an in depth look at the latest earnings reports from all the major players, changes to IPv4 costs (inflation), Healthscribe, and all the news (in cybersecurity) that's fit to print.  Titles we almost went with this week:

Welcome episode 220 of The Cloud Pod podcast - where the forecast is always cloudy! This week your hosts, Justin, Jonathan, Ryan, and Matthew discuss all things cloud, including virtual machines, an AI partnership between Microsoft and Meta for Llama 2, Lambda functions, Fargate, and lots of security updates including the Outlook breach and WORM protections. This and much more in our newest episode.  Titles we almost went with this week: Too Many Bees died for Honeycode Microsoft announces that AI will only cost you 3 arms and a leg.   The Cloud Pod also detects Recursive Loops in cloud news The cloud pod disables health checks bc who needs them A big thanks to this week's sponsor: Foghorn Consulting, provides top-notch cloud and DevOps engineers to the world's most innovative companies. Initiatives stalled because you have trouble hiring?  Foghorn can be burning down your DevOps and Cloud backlogs as soon as next week.

Welcome episode 219 of The Cloud Pod podcast - where the forecast is always cloudy! Today your hosts are Justin and Jonathan, and they discuss all things cloud, including clickstream analytics, databricks, Microsoft Entra, virtual machines, Outlook threats, and some major changes over at the Google Cloud team.  Titles we almost went with this week: TCP is not Entranced with Entra ID The Cave you Fear to Entra, Holds the Treasure you Seek Microsoft should rethink Entra rules for their Email A big thanks to this week's sponsor: Foghorn Consulting, provides top-notch cloud and DevOps engineers to the world's most innovative companies. Initiatives stalled because you have trouble hiring?  Foghorn can be burning down your DevOps and Cloud backlogs as soon as next week.

Welcome to the newest episode of The Cloud Pod podcast! Justin, Ryan and Matthew are your hosts this week as we discuss all the latest news and announcements in the world of the cloud and AI - including what's new with Google Deepmind, as well as goings on over at the Finops X Conference. Join us!  Titles we almost went with this week:

Welcome to the newest episode of The Cloud Pod podcast! Justin, Ryan and Matthew are your hosts this week as we discuss all the latest news and announcements in the world of the cloud and AI. Do people really love Matt's Azure know-how? Can Google make Bard fit into literally everything they make? What's the latest with Azure AI and their space collaborations? Let's find out! Titles we almost went with this week: Clouds in Space, Fictional Realms of Oracles, Oh My.  The cloudpod streams lambda to the cloud A big thanks to this week's sponsor:  Foghorn Consulting, provides top-notch cloud and DevOps engineers to the world's most innovative companies. Initiatives stalled because you have trouble hiring?  Foghorn can be burning down your DevOps and Cloud backlogs as soon as next week.

Gamers on their way to a convention run afoul of violent criminals on the run.  Can they use their "skillz" to survive? [warning - some violence, language, and mature situations] Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Abby - Beverly Poole Mark - Brian Lomatewama Justin - Mathias Rebne Morgan Brianna - Lyndsey Thomas Tyler - Michael Faigenblum Clark - Brandon O'Brien News Report - Gwendolyn Gieseke-Woodard Man - Bill Hollweg Music of DARKEST OF THE HILLSIDE THICKETS!  used with permission Show theme and Incidental Music:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Recorded with the assistance of Ryan Hirst of Neohoodoo Studio Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a van on a road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?" _______________________________________ EXIT STRATEGY Cast: Mark - Game Master, in a wheelchair Abby - strategy girl Justin - the driver, Mark's brother Brianna - nurse, dating Tyler Tyler - wiry LARPer, dating Brianna Clark - a criminal Thug - another criminal SOUND     FOOTSTEPS OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a car on a stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      INSIDE CAR NOISES SOUND     Music plays on the radio SOUND     "BING" FROM THE DASHBOARD SOUND     Justin turns down the stereo JUSTIN     We're riding E.  [up] Eyes peeled for a gas station, everybody! MARK     Hey, Justin, remember when it used to be sooo cool to cross the state line? JUSTIN     Yeah - some things just lose their charm as you get older, little bro. MARK     And can drink legally in your own state... ABBY     Don't drink and game.  It dulls your edge. JUSTIN     You've got enough edge for all of us, Abby.  BRIANNA     [slightly off, giggles] I would too. TYLER     [slightly off] That is so great.  You are so great. ABBY     You do realize we can hear you? JUSTIN     Keep it clean back there.  I'll lose my damage deposit on the van if it comes back stained. BRIANNA     Ew!  We were just-- TYLER     [defiant] I was just telling Bree that if she ever got possessed by a demon, I would totally kill her. BRIANNA     [squeaky] Isn't that sweet? ABBY     [baffled] Yeah.  [whispered] What do you think brought on this declaration of undying love? JUSTIN     Tyler brought his DVD player.  I think they're watching Evil Dead. ABBY     Oh. [that explains it] MARK     You guys are all going to help with the "Super Five" tournament, right?  I can count on you? ABBY     Well-- MARK     Well? ABBY     [hesitant] I was checking, and the final round of the "AfterBlast" championship is in the same time slot. MARK     [excited] You really think you have a chance? ABBY     Hell yeah.  I plan to kick ass and take names.  MARK     That rocks.  JUSTIN     I-- I noticed you were the only - um - ABBY     Discernibly female? JUSTIN     Yeah, that - name on the semi-finals roster.  ABBY     Yup.  Time to represent. MUSIC JUSTIN     Pit stop! MARK     Man, you are this close to losing your deposit. JUSTIN     Shit.  Your chair's packed! BRIANNA     I got you, Mark.  SOUND     DOOR SLIDES OPEN, SHIFTING SOUNDS AS SHE GETS OUT SOUND     FRONT DOOR OPENS BRIANNA     Come on, then. TYLER     [teasing, going off] No groping my girl, now. MARK     Hey!  My hand slipped.  Once. BRIANNA     Girl. [snort]  I am a woman. [grunts as she gets Mark on her back]  OK, hold on.  Tyler, got the door? TYLER     [off] Getting it! SOUND     QUICK FOOTSTEPS ON CONCRETE SOUND     DOOR OPENS. MEN'S ROOM SOUND     FLUSH, STALL DOOR OPENS MAN     Hey!  You can't be in here! BRIANNA     Puh-lease.  I'm a nurse.  Almost.  [sarcastic] And you should get that looked at. MUSIC AMBIANCE     NIGHTTIME ROAD, VERY QUIET MUSIC VERY QUIET ON THE STEREO JUSTIN     [quiet] Hey Abby? ABBY     [quiet, tired] Hmm? JUSTIN     Just wanted to see if you're awake. ABBY     Really?  Nice of you to check. JUSTIN     Well... I'm not sure how much farther it is to the motel, and I was starting to fade a bit.  Help keep me on the road? ABBY     [half yawning] Sure.  What's on your mind? JUSTIN     Any chance you and I - you know - sometime? ABBY     [half a laugh]  I've sworn a blood oath not to date any man who can't beat me in a fair game of AfterBlast. JUSTIN     Really? ABBY     Something like that.  No offense, OK?  You're nice.  But we're kind of different worlds. JUSTIN     I used to game--  ABBY     Used to.  You traded in your dice for the corporate world. JUSTIN     It's not that bad-- [sudden change]  Whoah. ABBY     What? JUSTIN     Nothing.  Just - there's headlights behind us.  They weren't there a minute ago. ABBY     Must have come round a corner.  SOUND     CREAK, TURN ABBY     [turned to look] Hmm.  How fast are we going? JUSTIN     Why? ABBY     They're catching up.  Should I wake everybody? JUSTIN     Well...  if there's a crash, they're better off asleep.  Relaxed.  It's a fact - why drunks walk away more often-- ABBY     It's still coming.  Can we get off the road?  JUSTIN     There just isn't any place to go!  The ditches are ... gaping black chasms! ABBY     What's our speed? JUSTIN     Seventy.  So far. SOUND     GROWLING ROAR, GETTING CLOSER ABBY     How much can you push a minivan? JUSTIN     Don't know.  It's a rental. ABBY     All right. [thinking]  Turn off the headlights. JUSTIN     What?  ABBY      There's a good moon - the road is straight as far as I can see right now - can you hold the wheel straight while you're blinded? SOUND     ROARING REVVING APPROACHES JUSTIN      I... guess-- yes. SOUND     HEADLIGHTS TURN OFF JUSTIN     [heavy breathing] ABBY     Once our eyes adjust, we can look for a turnoff - in the dark, with the headlights, we won't see it until it's too late.  JUSTIN     Does that work? ABBY     I don't know.  Yes!  There, to the left, a road. JUSTIN     We're going too fast! ABBY     Start the turn early, and run in at an angle.  It should work.  MARK     [half asleep] Yeah, the roll factors are considerably less-- JUSTIN     Roll factors? MARK     "Street Wars," core manual.  The turn gauge modifiers. JUSTIN     Whatever, here we go! SOUND     SCREECH MUSIC AMBIANCE     OUTSIDE SOUND     TICKING OF THE ENGINE MARK     I'm suitably impressed. JUSTIN     Thanks.  Me too. ABBY     It worked! JUSTIN     A flat tire-- ABBY     Just one. MARK     --is not bad, all things considered. ABBY     [encouraging] Besides you missed the ditch, and the car didn't even flip. MUSIC SOUND     ON THE ROAD AGAIN TYLER     Doesn't this whole thing remind anyone of a movie? JUSTIN     Movie?  What, Texas Chainsaw Massacre? ABBY     Wo!  We do have the right carload for leatherface. MARK     Hey, Justin, don't pick up any strangers, kay?  I don't wanna be the first to die. TYLER     No....  OK, think.  A brother and sister in a car, in the middle of nowhere-- BRIANNA     [helping] In the middle of the day-- TYLER     Run off the road by a huge spooky truck--?  Hmm? MARK     That wasn't a truck.  ABBY     It wasn't? MARK     While you guys were watching the road, I watched it go by - It was big and square-- TYLER     A truck. MARK     No.  Better than that - I saw words on the side. BRIANNA     A truck? MARK     [sigh] Nope.  I must have made a perfect success on my perception roll, though - it was an armored car.  JUSTIN     In the middle of the night?  In the middle of nowhere? ABBY     Radio.  There must be something. SOUND     RADIO ON, SURF CHANNELS, STOP ON AN AD MARK     I like N-P-R. ABBY     News channel, bub. [Moment just listening.] JUSTIN     OK, enough with the ads - give us some news. TYLER     If this was a movie, the minute we switched over, the news bulletin would come on right then.  Cheesy, eh? BRIANNA     It's just a genre convention - a way of condensing all this boring time spent listening to-- JUSTIN     Shh. SOUND     TURNS VOLUME UP NEWS     ...the third armored car hijacking this year, and the second one with fatalities.  Three security guards were injured in the attack-- JUSTIN     Wow.  We should call someone. ABBY     Already on it.  SOUND     CELL PHONE BEEPS ABBY     Damn.  No reception. NEWS     --two are in critical condition.  Pursuers lost the car in a high speed chase when the hijackers realized they were being tracked and dumped the onboard GPS at the side of the road.  JUSTIN     Well, the motel must be close.  They'll have a phone. NEWS     Police believe that one of the hijackers may have been injured in the attack... SOUND      CLICK RADIO OFF - no music here MARK      I thought we were supposed to reach it by ten? JUSTIN     Well, with all you small bladdered people, we had a lot more potty breaks than I allowed for.  And, o'course, getting run off the road...  Changing the tire... TYLER     There was that. BRIANNA     Think your Uncle Joey'll give us a discount for coming in so late - half the night, half price? TYLER     I'll ask him.  [yawns] In the morning, though. MUSIC SOUND     CAR, SNORING FROM ALL BUT JUSTIN SOUND     BUMP, THEN CAR PULLS TO A STOP JUSTIN     [trying to stay awake noise]  Holy crap, I think we're here. ABBY     [waking]  Mmm?  Oh good... JUSTIN     One moment and I'll go and check in... ABBY     No, I'll get it.  Gotta pee anyway.  Small bladder.  [yawns] All that. JUSTIN     [receding] I didn't mean.... SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS AND SHUTS SOUND     FOOTSTEPS ON GRAVEL, DOOR, BELL JINGLES ABBY     Hello?  Hello?  SOUND     RINGS DESK BELL SOUND     DOOR OPENS SOMEWHERE ABBY     [calling]  Look, I'm sorry to be coming in so late!  We had car trouble.  Can we get a room?  [beat]  Hello?  SOUND     FLUSH OF A TOILET ABBY     [needs to pee] Oh, jeez.  [deep shaky breath]  Hello? SOUND     DOOR OPENS CLARK     Hey.  Sorry about that.  I was catching a few.  You want a room? ABBY     Yeah, my friends and I - if you have a room with a couple of queens, we'll be fine. CLARK     Uh, sure.  Probably.  [looking around]  Nobody really here, tonight. ABBY     Could we have the one out on the end, then? CLARK     Don't see why not... um... ABBY     Says here it's room 14. CLARK     There you go.  [unconvincing laugh] So tired my eyes won't focus. SOUND     KEY SLAPPED ON TABLE ABBY     How much? CLARK     Oh, pay when you leave.  ABBY     Hmm.  Are you Joey? CLARK     Joey who? ABBY     [sharp intake of breath, then faking being ditzy]  Sorry - you look a lot like the cousin of a friend of mine.  CLARK     I get that a lot. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS, DOOR OPENS ABBY     Oh, can I use your bathroom?  It's kind of an emergency. CLARK     [too sharp] No!  I  mean, sorry - no can do.  Absolutely against policy.  Too bad you didn't get a room closer in, eh? ABBY     [flat, suspicious] Yeah. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS, JINGLE MUSIC SOUND     HOTEL ROOM DOOR SHUTS, FEET STUMBLE AROUND, BAGS DOWN, ETC. SOUND     BODY FLOPS ONTO BED JUSTIN     I am dead.  As driver, I call a bed.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR ROLLS MARK     I'm with you.  SOUND     FLUSH BRIANNA     I suppose Abby and I should share the... other...? I thought she said the room would have two beds? SOUND      DOOR OPENS ABBY     That clerk didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.  Did you park right next to the door Justin? JUSTIN     [half moan] Yes.  Why? ABBY     I have a bad feeling about all this.  TYLER     Any chance it has something to do with all the spooky movie talk in the car? BRIANNA     And the guy who ran us off the road? ABBY     Maybe.  JUSTIN     Well, unless you're ready to drive - and pay for the extra insurance - We're not moving from this spot until I wake up. ABBY     But the clerk - there was something wrong there.  Really.  God, for a chance at a spot hidden roll. MARK     [more awake] Describe him. BRIANNA     [groans]  Come on - it's beddy-bye time! MARK     Abby's got good instincts, Bree.  You know how hard it is for me to fool her. ABBY     That's just in game.  I'm not-- JUSTIN     [half asleep, but trying]  But you are the only girl-- BRIANNA     [half-hearted] Woman. JUSTIN     --to make it into the ... strategic final thingee-- ABBY     Ok.  Shit I'm tired.  [long deep thinking breath]  He wouldn't let me use the bathroom.  He didn't try and hit on me.  Didn't know which number room was the one on the end.  Didn't ask how many "we" were.  Didn't know which rooms have queen beds.  Didn't ask for a credit card. TYLER     So? He's dead tired too.  Big whoop.  It's [looks] 2 freaking 55 in the morning. MARK     Jeez, folks, we've had sessions which went long past 3!  What's wrong with you? JUSTIN     [muttered into the pillow]  Getting old. MARK     Yeah.  You 25-year old over the hill codger, you.  Abby, what would you do now?  ABBY     What? MARK     This is the scenario.  Right here.  What would you do? TYLER     Sleep. BRIANNA     Seconded. JUSTIN     [Snoring] MARK     Assume it's unlikely we can drive out of here - at least not conveniently.  How would you secure the room? ABBY      [perking up]  We could set watches-- TYLER     [mumbled] Screw you! ABBY     I can't watch all night.  Adrenaline is only good for so long. MARK     That guy struck you that bad? ABBY     Yeah.  I'm probably just-- MARK     Let's assume otherwise.  We have a map - of sorts - on the door there.  Take a look. ABBY     I - well, I got the room on the end, since we'd have a better chance of seeing or hearing anyone coming.  MARK     [chuckles] ABBY     I can't help it.  I'm already in strategy mode.  Ok, the room has windows at the front and back and a bathroom that abuts the next room.  No windows in the end wall.  If we could keep an eye either side-- SOUND     FEET ON CARPET, CURTAIN PULLED ASIDE, THEN WHIPPED BACK INTO PLACE. ABBY     Oh, shit. MARK     What? ABBY     God, I hope no one saw the light.  MARK     I'll turn it off.  Let them think we're asleep.  SOUND     CLICK OF SWITCH MARK     Now? ABBY     It's the truck - car - whatever!    The one that almost ran us off the road! MARK     [gasps]  Are you sure? ABBY     Come and look! MARK     I believe you.  We need everyone if this is a real situation.  Shit. ABBY     There's woods - cover - right out back.  If Tyler was up, he could go look. MARK     He's not going to be up any time soon. ABBY     I know what will-- I'm going to take a chance and get my other bag from the car.  I'll see what I can see.  MARK     I'll try the phone-- ABBY     No! MARK     Why? ABBY     Switchboard - I saw a switchboard in the office.  MARK     Shit.  Major "notice," though.  Good one. SOUND     DOOR OPENS MARK     Abby? ABBY     I'll be careful. MARK     [encouraging] I'm glad it's you. SOUND     DOOR SOFTLY CLOSES MARK      Shit.  SOUND     A moment of just snoring MUSIC      CREEPS IN, JUST A BIT MARK     [snorty, "almost fell asleep" noise]  Abby?  What time--?  Shit.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR SHIFTS MARK     [urgent hiss] Justin!  Wake up, dammit! JUSTIN     Wha--? MARK     Wake Up! SOUND     DOOR OPENS QUICKLY, FEET COME IN, DOOR SHUTS AGAIN MARK     God!  You nearly gave me a heart attack! ABBY     Sorry - I spotted someone out in the parking lot, just after I got in the van, and I didn't want to move again until it was clear.  JUSTIN     [almost awake] What's going on? ABBY     I'll get Tyler up. MARK     Go for it.  I doubt you'll have much luck. ABBY     Ah, but I have a secret weapon - I always pack a sixer with me to gaming cons.  SOUND     SLOSHING OF LIQUID MARK     [almost drooling] Energy shots. ABBY     Un-huh.  It may take a minute or two, but we'll get everyone up and running. MUSIC TYLER     All you had to do was shout "Bob! Bob is coming!" and I woulda been up and running without the taste of ass - Bob was the demon in the larp last weekend, and man was he-- MARK     Shush.  EVERYONE     [Murmurs of assent] MARK     Let's assume this is not a drill. EVERYONE     [a bit undecided murmurs] ABBY     I know there's something odd here.  I feel it. JUSTIN     Are you sure you're not just jittery about the tourney? ABBY     Probably am, but that doesn't make me think I'm wrong. BRIANNA     [Still groggy] What do you want us to do? MARK     Tyler, are you up for something that could be really dangerous? TYLER     Hell yeah. BRIANNA     [cautioning] Tyler? TYLER     Well, how dangerous? MARK     Abby? ABBY     Out the back window of the room, I think I saw that armored car that nearly ran us down.  It's parked in a dark spot.  If it's really the one, and there's any chance it's the same one that was stolen, there's a good chance we've walked in on a den of thieves.  We need to know.  Can you get within range of it and have a look? TYLER      Gimme a second. SOUND     FEET. CURTAIN MOVES BRIANNA     When you say "really dangerous"--? MARK     They already killed a couple of guys during the holdup.  I can't see them hesitating at shooting a few more bystanders. BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Bree, I've Larped with him, and if anyone can really sneak, it's Folemon. BRIANNA     But that's his character! ABBY     In live action games, there are things you either can do or you can't, and sneaking is‑‑ TYLER     [voice slightly different - "in character" as Folemon]  I spy the brigands' carriage.  I will hence and reconnoiter. BRIANNA     Be careful. TYLER     Fair maiden, with you to return to, I cannot fail.  [kiss on hand]  Douse the lanterns, lest my shadow betray me! MUSIC SOUND     LIGHT TAPPING NOISE, WHICH GOES ON THROUGHOUT JUSTIN     What are you doing? ABBY     What does it look like?  I'm checking for trap doors. JUSTIN     You're joking. BRIANNA     Didn't you see that movie Vacancy?  There was a trapdoor in the bathroom floor.  ABBY     That was so annoying.  They were so stupid about that. JUSTIN     About what? ABBY     Did you see the movie? JUSTIN     Well, no. ABBY     They could have easily blocked the hatch.  But they didn't and ended up fighting guys popping up out of it. BRIANNA     They couldn't block it - they tried.  There wasn't any heavy furniture. ABBY     [derisive laugh]  What do you call this? SOUND     DULL THUMP JUSTIN     A mattress. ABBY     Have you ever had to move one?  From a dead lift?  And if that's not enough, the trapdoor was right next to the tub - you just soak the damn thing and no one - not even Schwarzenegger-- BRIANNA     Well, back in his prime-- ABBY     Is going to be able to shift it. JUSTIN     You ...actually ...thought about this? ABBY     [matter of fact] It's what I do.  SOUND     KNOCKING BRIANNA     Lights out - it's the door.  SOUND     SCUFFLE OF MOVEMENT BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Folemon! TYLER     [muffled] I return triumphant! SOUND     DOOR OPENS AND QUICKLY SHUTS AGAIN, LOCKS TYLER     And, I have a prize! SOUND     TAP ON SOMETHING METAL SOUND     LIGHT CLICKS ON JUSTIN     What the--? MARK     No, that's good.  If we can get to the authorities, we can prove we saw the damn thing. JUSTIN     You coulda taken a picture - you think they're not going to notice a missing license plate? TYLER     [chuckling, full of himself] I think they'll have other things on their mind. ABBY     Oh, god, what did you do? TYLER     I had my thieves tool handy-- JUSTIN     What? BRIANNA     Pocketknife. TYLER     So I hobbled their horses. ABBY     We need to go now. JUSTIN      You did what? BRIANNA     He let the air out of their tires.  Tyler, sweetie, speak English so I can stop translating. TYLER     Hey, what?  They won't be able to come after us-- ABBY     But they will know someone was spying on their truck.  They might not notice the plate, but--  aagh! TYLER     I was... um... in the zone?  My character would have-- MARK     Understandable.  Let's deal with it.  Were there any other cars out there? TYLER     Not out back.  MARK     Justin? JUSTIN     What? MARK     Any other cars out front? JUSTIN     I didn't notice.  Sorry. MARK     See what happens when you give up gaming?  You lose your edge.  You remember anything Abby? ABBY     Not in the parking lot.  I can take a look. MARK     Hold off.  What do we have for weapons, if it comes to that? JUSTIN     Jack Shit. ABBY     Torchiere for a club.  BRIANNA     No - no heft. ABBY     We can wire the doorknob as a last resort - give someone a bitch of a shock. TYLER     Shh! [They all do.] SOUND     SLIGHT CRUNCH, MIGHT BE FOOT ON GRAVEL MARK     Posts. SOUND     VERY QUIET MOVEMENT ABBY     Uh-uh. BRIANNA     shit. MARK     The front? BRIANNA     Movement. ABBY     Window?  Door?  BRIANNA     Distraction.  [starts moaning, loudly - very sexy] ABBY     Stay out the way of the window.  BRIANNA     Uhh!  [whispered] Watching. [Up] Ohh! TYLER     [joins in] JUSTIN     You won't be able to hear-- ABBY     Neither will they! SOUND     WINDOW SLIDES OPEN WITH A PROTESTING SQUEAL ABBY     Shit.  If we're going out this way, we're doing it sharp and hard. MARK     Out front? TYLER     [still groaning] BRIANNA     Someone's right outside.  Ohh! Just a shadow.  Ohh!  Peeping or about to try something.  Ohh! JUSTIN     This is insane.  This does not happen in real life. MARK     Look, bro- you can play along, and worst that happens is you look like an idiot with the rest of us, or you keep saying it can't be real and maybe take a bullet.  Why not play along? JUSTIN      Shit.  What do you need me to do?  I am not joining that party. [Moans continue intermittently] MARK     Can you see what's at the top of the closet? Usually if there's access to an attic space, that's where it would be. JUSTIN     Sure. MARK     And you're tall enough. JUSTIN     No problem.  [suddenly serious] If this is some psycho situation, you know I won't let anyone get you, right, bro? MARK     Shithead.  Get everyone else out first!  I'm the burden - now get in the damn closet. SOUND     CLOSET DOOR OPENS ABBY     You're not a burden.  MARK     Physically, I'm a drag on the party. ABBY     Mentally, you're the only one keeping us together.  So you can just shut up. MARK     OK, shutting. BRIANNA     He's making a move. MARK     Shit.  SOUND     KNOCK ON THE DOOR BRIANNA     [loud] Ooh!  Oh, shit!  Huh? TYLER     [loud] What the fuck? MARK     Abby?  Where are we? ABBY     Tyler, get behind the door. Ready to slam it if you gotta. TYLER     Check. SOUND     KNOCK AGAIN ABBY     Brianna, the torchiere, stay below the window, trip anyone coming in. BRIANNA     On it. SOUND      KNOCKING INSISTENT ABBY     [trying to make up her mind] Door - wall - wall - door.  Shit! [deep breath, then calling out] What? SOUND     SHIFTING FURNITURE CLARK     You all right in there? ABBY     What? CLARK     I heard a noise. JUSTIN     [whispered] See?  Normal. ABBY     No.  At the very least, he's peeping.  No way he'd hear anything from the office.  [up]  Everything's fine.  We were watching a movie.  MARK     Good one. JUSTIN     Oh, this is idiotic. SOUND     WALKS, UNLOCKS AND FLINGS OPEN DOOR TYLER     Hey! ABBY     No! SOUND     GUNSHOT, BODY DROP JUSTIN     [screams in pain] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS CLARK     [screams in pain] ABBY     Bree, can you get the lock, without getting in front of the door - it's crap, but-- BRIANNA     Done.  Justin - is he--? SOUND     LOCK FUMBLED SHUT JUSTIN     [sounds more annoyed than hurt] I'm shot. ABBY     At least now we know it's not a drill.  SOUND     GUNSHOT, WINDOW SHATTERS ABBY     Down! SOUND     BODIES FALL, WHEELCHAIR RATTLES AND TIPS MARK     Get him.  I'll cover Justin. SOUND     CAUTIOUS STEP ON BROKEN GLASS ABBY     [scream, distracting him] SOUND     FEET TURN ON THE GLASS, GUNSHOT ABBY     Bree! BRIANNA     Yaaaah!  SOUND     THUMP - BODY DROPS CLARK     Yowtch! ABBY     Sit on that bastard.  Tyler, check for backup? SOUND     HEAVY CRUNCH ON GLASS CLARK     [Whimper] TYLER     On it. SOUND     CAR STARTING TYLER     Oh shit - he's in for a surprise.  Front's clear. JUSTIN     You seem to all be ignoring the fact that I've been shot. MARK     I've been applying pressure. JUSTIN     To my mouth. MARK     oh, yeah, I was supposed to be stopping the part that got shot, not the part that shot off, right. ABBY     Brianna, swap - you take a look at Justin, see if we can move him.  I'll hold down the ...fort. TYLER     Fart. [Snickers all around.] CLARK     [Moans, then grunts when Abby turns him over] SOUND     CRACKLE OF GLASS UNDER HIS BODY ABBY     Need something to tie him with.  TYLER     Gotcha.  Thieves tools to the rescue again. SOUND     RIPPING FABRIC - GOES ON FOR A WHILE BRIANNA     Tyler, toss me your flint and steel. SOUND     CATCH, THEN FLASHLIGHT COMES ON BRIANNA     Looks superficial.  I was hoping I knocked you down quickly enough, but I wasn't sure. JUSTIN     I've been shot. BRIANNA     Yes, but not badly.  I'll bandage it in a second. TYLER     Here's your fifty feet of rope... ABBY     Check the back? TYLER     I am fleet enough to be in all places at once. SOUND     ENGINE STOPS TYLER     Oh. ABBY     [grunts as she ties a knot]  OK, shithead.  Talk. CLARK     What? ABBY     Well, we have your gun.  And a pocketknife.  You want to choose which one I do you over with? CLARK     What?  I was just-- ABBY     Shooting in through our door? CLARK     I thought you were - TYLER     Shut up. ABBY     No, let him talk.  I want to hear this. CLARK     Nothing. ABBY     Oh, well.  How many friends you got out there? CLARK     None. ABBY     So that's Christine out back?  Or are you Knight Rider? CLARK     Ow!  No - No!  Stop! JUSTIN     Let me.  I'm the one he shot. CLARK     No!  There's just the two - and B-Ball's shot. ABBY     Anyone else? JUSTIN     Is this what you were doing? CLARK     OWWW!  No, no one! ABBY     What about the real clerk? CLARK     Oh - um - ABBY     Right.  We need to dump this guy somewhere. TYLER     Out back?  ABBY     Chances are, we can get out the front. JUSTIN     Chances?  I don't want-- ABBY     No worries.  Tyler - eyes on the back until I signal, OK? TYLER      Sure thing. BRIANNA     What now? ABBY     We do what we have to do.  Mark, you ready to take a chance? MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE - DOOR OPENS SOUND     WHEELCHAIR BUMPS NOISILY OUT THE DOOR ABBY     No shots.  Good.  We're moving out.  Justin, you're behind me and the chair - get your ass into the car and start it.  We'll pile in, peel out, and worry about belts and seats later. JUSTIN     Are you sure this is safe? ABBY     Nope.  Tyler?  Got the rear? TYLER     Got it. ABBY      Bree, you're first in.  I'll cover you. SOUND     GUN CLICKS READY BRIANNA     Check.  Hold tight! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR GRINDS ALONG THE GROUND TYLER     He's coming!  ABBY     Everyone - Move!  Justin - get it in gear! JUSTIN      Yeah... SOUND     JINGLE OF KEYS, THEY DROP TO THE GROUND JUSTIN     Shit! ABBY     Dammit!  Bree, get your ass to the other side of the car! SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUNNING ON GRAVEL TYLER     I'll-- SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     You'll go.  Move it.  I'll cover you.  [solemn] Don't fumble the keys. TYLER     I won't. SOUND     RUNNING FEET TAKE OFF ACROSS THE GRAVEL, snatch up the keys. SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [Gasps as she shoots]  Damn, that's a kick. SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS ABBY     Yessss! SOUND     ABBY SHOOTS SOUND     SIDE DOOR SLIDES OPEN ABBY     [yelling] Stop shooting at the crip, you scumbag!  You'll be sorry! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR MOVES SLOWLY, ODD FOOTSTEPS AS ABBY CROUCHES BEHIND IT ABBY     Nice to have friends, isn't it? SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [yelling] You really should stop that!  THUG     [evil laugh] ABBY     I told him. TYLER     Come on! ABBY     Bye-bye SOUND     WHEELCHAIR PUSHED, ROLLS SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     GRUNT OF PAIN [CLARK] SOUND     RUNNING FEET SOUND     CAR REVVING SOUND     JUMP SOUND     GUNSHOT, PINGS OFF METAL OF CAR TYLER     [grunting to pull her in] Come on! SOUND     CAR MOVES, FEET DRAG BRIANNA     Here. SOUND     GRAB, DRAG ABBY     [grunting] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     TIRES SPIN IN GRAVEL, CAR ZOOMS OFF ABBY     [sigh] OK, whose lap am I in? MARK     Mine.  Sorry about that. ABBY     Hey, we're all here, no one got shot-- JUSTIN     I did! MARK     And we had to dump my chair... ABBY     No one got killed, and we're back on the road.  I'm gonna feel like shit for the tourney, but who gives a crap?  [giggles] [All join in the hysterical relieved laughter.] MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE ROAD - MORNING NOISES ABBY     [waking up noises, suddenly awake with a gasp] MARK     [whispering]  Shh.  It's ok-- SOUND     RUSTLE AS SHE TRIES TO SIT UP ABBY     Was it - It was a dream? MARK     Hell no.  But once you passed out, we figured you deserved it.  Let you sleep. ABBY     Oh... MARK     Hey Justin?  When's the next bathroom? BRIANNA     And a phone. JUSTIN     Like anyone's gonna believe us.  BRIANNA     You did get shot. TYLER      And I still have my trophy. SOUND     PING AGAINST METAL OF LICENSE PLATE MARK     Shh.  Abby's out again.  ABBY     Hmm?  [rousing herself] Like hell!  Justin?  Crank the music!! END  

Here is a rough transcript:Hey, this is Justin It is Thursday morning and feeling a little bit sick this morning. So woke up at 330 did about 90 minutes of work. In the morning, I knew I wasn't gonna get back to sleep. And then finally get back to sleep at 530 to 630. It wasn't some, some good sleep. So doing it very interesting in measuring, managing mood management as well, not feeling well, because everything just sort of comes up as a little bit more stressful in the moment, and a little bit more stressful at the moment. And then I just noticed myself getting more anxious about things that aren't necessarily worth getting anxious about. So I will. I'm going to I will leave that one here for right now. And that was it. And then so I probably want to manage rest, manage exercise, manage long walks, probably pay attention to where like I'm working through signals like as far as like practice Pomodoro. Right. They take more and more breaks today to get through it and probably do more recordings later today, too. Just knowing that this is just one of one of a one of a few different ways of of being able to work so hope you're having an amazing day and thanks so much.

Here is an unedited transcript:Hey, this is Justin It is Wednesday morning. This is a brain dump, not a walking talk, I'm back at the camp, we went to the dog park this morning and play dog played quite a bit. So didn't have a chance to go on the long walk for the day, but been bringing the book that 100 million dollar offer offers, which really does a great breakdown of what it takes to create a an offer that is huge and undeniable by other people. So going to start implementing some of the learnings from that over the next couple of days might do some of that over audio messages. And I want to talk about afternoons I have get ready. You know, when I get around 334 o'clock in the afternoon, the energy just starts to drop and I start getting into the evenings. And it feels like the mind sort of undoes most of the stuff that happened during the day and I used to combat that last year a couple times a week by doing my workouts in the afternoons. But when I do heavy workouts in the afternoons, wakes me up wakes me out for the rest of the day. So when I'm thinking I'll start doing some cardio in the afternoons, and some light reading and like some plan structured activities, which are meetings with people or things that are sort of forced to be there and to go to so that's when I start thinking about afternoon activities to have good energy throughout the day because it always picks up again the next morning but but in the afternoons it's a little bit more challenging to love to hear if you're listening to this routines that you do to get the energy picked up in the afternoon.

Here is a rough transcription:Hey, this is Justin It is Tuesday morning, September 13 2022, messing around with straight through processing of podcast right now to spend down, gotten about 430 In the morning the last couple of days and have been updating categories for over 500 podcasts that I've got, and also been adding the transcripts to the, to the original podcasts, I want to see if I can do all of the production aspects when we're when we're doing the original, the original creation, and I know that there's gonna be some on the back end, some editing that has to get done on the back end to like for SEO tags and those sorts of things. And it's all sorted in the concept of how do we get an idea from? How do we get something that's rattling around inside of our head get it communicated. And that's what this audio message is, and then get it into a place where it can be discoverable by the world, right? And there's like, like, you can put a book out, right, but a book takes a long period of time and what is like the minimum nugget of information. And what I've come to the conclusion about is blog posts because they're the one of the most discoverable things by Google. And so you can you Yeah, they're discoverable by Google. And they can be they can be accessed by search engines and the best way to do that is through word. So what I do is I take these, the original audio messages and then I take the transcripts on the back end. So this is just an experiment of doing straight through podcasts. Straight through processing of our podcasts.

IT'S A GENIUS ENCOUNTER as Jonathan Goldhill welcomes genius entrepreneur, Justin Breen in the Disruptive Successor show. Tune in as Justin shares with Jonathan and the audience his entrepreneurial journey, why taking action is better than overthinking, and his knowledge of Kolbe's assessment.HIGHLIGHTSJustin Breen's entrepreneurial journeyThe Kolbe indexTaking action overthinkingBusiness owners VS. true entrepreneursStrategic coach programQUOTESJustin: “I'm just 100% simplifier, living in my zone of genius and spending time with my family.”Justin: “One of the passages in the book is, meaning is not an idea to be agreed with, it isn't a feeling. It is a feeling you get when you live as a hero on a mission. And it cannot be experienced without taking action and living into a story.”Justin: “It all comes back to taking action over thinkers or under doers. Over-analysis takes away all your energy.”Justin: “You can't learn anything unless you take action. So if I, the way I look at is everything can't be perfect and right, unless you take action to learn what's actually wrong.”Justin: “Business owners care about revenue, office space, employee count, material stuff, I don't care about any of that stuff. true entrepreneur cares about creating purpose, spending time with family or friends, and changing the world.”Connect with Justin and learn more about his work using the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinbreen1/Website: https://www.brepicllc.com/Do you have the Visionary, Abundance, Investment mindset?Take the assessment and find out:  https://www.kys.coach/scorecard/ed80742f6e14c22a8884e7829c18fb88/surveyIf you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

Book Your Free Revenue First Podcast Strategy here!Get Your Free Dial Session here!Want Your Reps Hitting Quota in 2022? Get Your Wingman Free Trial HERE!HIGHLIGHTSFrom world-touring musician to entrepreneurFinding an employer that invests in their peopleGetting into 500startups and reigniting the entrepreneurial sparkDealing with rejection and improving the pitchAlways ask for feedback, especially from those that rejected youReaching your audience with influencer marketing Fusing technology with influencers to run campaigns QUOTESCollin: "I think sales is the number one skill that you need as entrepreneur because even if you have the best product, but you don't know how to get people to buy it, or to care about it, then it's never gonna be successful."Justin: "Everyone is kind of like a child. We're all just children. You have to be nurturing. You have to be understanding. They might have  a temper tantrum. They might not want something. And that's okay. You still treat people with respect, ask them for feedback. 'Oh you don't want to invest, why? What about the business model do you not like? What could be changed to make it better, to where you'd want to invest?'"Justin: "I feel like it's important to be persistent, even if you know that they're not gonna buy it. It's like, 'I know you're not gonna buy this, because you're not returning my call. But tell me why, give me a reason. Because think that's important information that you should always expect of a prospect. Don't just take nothing for an answer."Justin: "It's not that time consuming if you just want to get like 1,2,3,4,5,6 influencers, like to make content for you. You can do that on your own. But it's when you want to have like, 30 people a month, or 20 people a month, putting out content constantly. You need to have a dashboard, track everything, and you want to have this engine running at all times. Then it gets increasingly more difficult and more complicated." Learn more about Justin in the links below:Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briceulrey/Website: https://opkalla.com/Learn more about Collin in the link below: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/collin-saleshustle/Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Collin and Chris.

Meet Justin Andrus: Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services.   In this week's episode, I speak with Justin about how he is massively improving the indigent defense system in the state of Maine.    Maine is unique because 100% of their public defenders are contract attorneys, but Justin makes it work.   You'll learn the ins and outs of public defense in Maine. By knowing the true realities of the system, you'll walk away feeling motivated to create change.     Key Topics and Takeaways:   Problems in the Maine indigent system [6:00] Why Maine still has all contract attorneys [10:05] How The Great Resignation has affected Maine public defense [14:10] Why $80 per hour is still underpaying public defenders [16:05] The Lawyer of the Day system and why it doesn't always work as intended [19:51]  Partial indigence [35:05] What self-represented people should know [43:43] The problems with fines and fees [50:57]   Guests:    Justin Andrus, Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services   Resources: Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services https://www.maine.gov/mcils/home  Sixth Amendment Center Report on Indigent Defense in Maine Maine Monitor/ProPublica Report on the MCILS issues in the past  OPEGA Report on Finance Oversight Issues in MCILS   Reports mentioned at 7:42   Memorable Quotes:   “I do think that it is possible to have the structure that provides the necessary oversight and training and quality assurance for contracted attorneys.” (11:18, Justin)   “We need higher wages. Communicating how important it is and for people to understand how important it is that it's the defendant who is harmed by this.” (19:26, Hunter)   “So the concept of partially indigent is maybe a misnomer. I agree. It doesn't make a lot of sense on its face as a set of words.” (35:16. Justin)   “It isn't this mortal combat between good and evil, as many people want it to be. It is individuals trying to do the best for the defendant, for the community, all of these things working in mind.” (38:15, Hunter)   “We are not a bunch of shady people helping evil doers be free to do more evil. And in fact, the vast majority of people accused of crimes are not evildoers at all.” (40:39, Justin)   “Society is safest when the most number of people are having their needs met.” (14:29, Justin)   “The first thing a self-represented defendant should know is don't be self-represented if you could possibly avoid it.” (44:03, Justin)

Jinya is franchised across the US and Canada 40 locations with a plan to add between 15 and 20 restaurants Pork broth is a 20 hour process Quotes “What it comes down to is the best marketing is word of mouth” -Justin “Trying to define who that customer is and once you have that definition then, putting the resources to where those folks are: -Justin “I cant underscore enough how important it is to truly think local at all costs” -Joseph “I try to let the data tell the story and kind of guide us” -Justin “If you're not communicating with your franchisees on the “why”, they can go rogue rather easily” -Justin “It's not just explaining what or how, it really is why” -Joseph “An elevated experience isn't just the food, it's all of it” -Justin

Justin: It is morally imperative to not say true things on social media ... Why Justin loves Substack ... Pros and cons of writing without an editor ... AOC's real audience at the Met Gala ... Are social media editors purposefully riling up the mob? ... Sally Rooney and Israel, the Twitter Discourse perfect storm ... The "false representative class" of online pundits ...

Justin: It is morally imperative to not say true things on social media ... Why Justin loves Substack ... Pros and cons of writing without an editor ... AOC's real audience at the Met Gala ... Are social media editors purposefully riling up the mob? ... Sally Rooney and Israel, the Twitter Discourse perfect storm ... The "false representative class" of online pundits ...

Dr. Lesch was one of our earliest and most popular guests. We could not cover it all in one hour so he rejoined us for some additional discussions of what he has been working on lately. This includes local elections, hostage negotiations and upcoming publications. Transcript: [music] Justin Hill: Hello, and bienvenido, San Antonio. Welcome to The Alamo Hour, discussing the people, places and passion that make our city. My name is Justin Hill, a local attorney, a proud San Antonian, and keeper of chickens and bees. On The Alamo Hour, you'll get to hear from the people that makes San Antonio great, and unique, and the best kept secret in Texas. We're glad that you're here. [music] Justin: All right, welcome to The Alamo Hour. Today's guest is our first repeat guest. You may remember he had a giggle fit last time, and said that he met Bashar al-Assad on a dating website. Dr. David Lesch from Trinity University. Thank you for being here. Dr. David Lesch: I can't talk about that. [laughs] Justin: Before this, I said I was going to ask him things, because lately in our friendship, he has become very self-important in telling us things he can and cannot discuss in public settings. David: I can't talk about that either. Justin: Yes, I know. David: I'm going to be a great guest, I can't talk about anything. Why the hell you got me on here? [crosstalk] Justin: Most of this could just me being like, "Hey, tell me about," insert a thing or a person, and then having you turn red as you laugh and say you can't talk about it. David: Exactly. Justin: Like our previous conversation about your telephone, I could ask you about that, and you also would have to say, "I can't talk about that." [crosstalk] David: Well, they're listening on the telephone right now. [crosstalk] Justin: I think they are. David: Probably are. Whoever they are. [crosstalk] Justin: Probably going to advertise-- [crosstalk] I don't know. David: Here, I am talking about it, so you already got me to-- Justin: On most of my episodes, I normally go through like a top 10 list and what are you into and what do you like. I generally know that about you, but what have you been up to during the shutdown? David: Writing my next book. Justin: Yes, what's the title? [laughs] It's not ambitious at all. What was it? David: It's the history of the Middle East from the Prophet Muhammad to the present. Justin: 78,000 pages long. David: I'm through five pages, man. At this rate, in the 23rd century, I will be done. Justin: I asked you how you broke down what to include and what not to include, and you use the word triage. [crosstalk] David: It's a historical triage. Absolutely, I've done that before. You just can't go over every little thing, or else it would be 78,000 pages. This will be about 350-400 pages. Oxford University Press will be putting it out. Justin: It'll be $250. David: Only for you. Only the hard back copy. [crosstalk] Justin: You had one book that was approachable and at normal price. [crosstalk] David: That's only if I don't autograph it. If I autograph it, it's down to $2 or $3. Justin: I paid $7.80 for your Syria book on Amazon. Does that make you feel bad? David: [crosstalk] Oh, used? The thing is, you got it used. [crosstalk] It was only out for like a month. It's like, "Okay, who read it and sent it back?" or, "Who didn't read it and just sent it back?" Justin: What a jerk friend, "I'll buy your book." [crosstalk] David: Yes, exactly. I was like, "Geez, maybe I can make some money off of this," [laughs] because it's like $15. Justin: Is that the only book you're working on now? David: I think one at a time is enough, thank you very much. Justin: No, I think you said you were working on more than one. David: Sometimes I am, but this time no. This is focusing on that. I've got a lot of writing done since I'm at home more often than not, not traveling as much, obviously. I'm halfway through. It should be published in 2022. I'll...

For more episodes please visit - http://www.jftalks.comHere is a rough transcript:Justin Finkelstein 0:01Hey, this is Justin It is Tuesday morning and we're gonna talk about accountability structures. I'm going to pre apologize for the audio quality on this message. I'm walking out in the snow right now. And so you might hear some some clanking and some, some sounds in the bit that might get in the way. If the audio quality does get in the way of this message, please send me a yak. Why ac.com forward slash Justin F. And I'll kind of walk you through the whole process one on one. So here we go. Why most so I've been in accountability conversations, one on one group conversations probably done probably 250 at this point in time, and most of them fail. Most of them don't even get to the end, where they're the commitments are kept for the regular conversations that people are going to have let alone the the goals get achieved that people originally set and the main thing, the killer of accountability conversation is friction. So a very common thing that happens is like, Alright, we want to support each other great. We got goals, it makes sense to be able to work together. Let's set up a zoom call. And there's like our house next Friday at 10. no good for me house next Thursday at 11. Okay, good. No good for me. All right. So let's just say you get past that hurdle, and you are able to schedule for the time that actually works, that you're able to get together. Now, you've got to be in the right energy space, to be able to have the conversations and have the structures and be able to follow up on those. So what people do is like they're right, then they, they think, Alright, we're doing this too often. Let's extend the cadence, which is a challenge for an accountability structure to be able to work. In my opinion, it needs to be more frequent. It needs to be daily for people to get together, but who's got the time to be able to get together. So the ones that work? The best are the ones that are done, asynchronously. For me, I believe voice is the best way to go. Because voice is the most frictionless way for people to be able to most frictionless way for people to be able to connect. So a couple of different platforms. My favorite, obviously, or I don't know if it's obvious, is Yak. If you hit me up on yak, why ac.com forward slash Justin F, we can immediately get into our accountability conversation and set a cadence that actually works and I can handle I'm probably having one on one conversations on a daily basis with 20 or 30. People at this point, they're not all accountability conversations. But we can go from zero to in the conversation very quickly. Some people don't want to add a new platform, which I completely understand. WhatsApp works just as well. WhatsApp is great, it's global. So all you need is a cell phone to be able to get into it. Some people don't like the security of WhatsApp. So that becomes an you know, an issue in what they're actually doing with their data. But those are the ways stay away from the zooms stay away from those scheduled meeting. Personally, I don't like doing stuff and writing some people like doing their stuff in writing. And it is more effective when you actually put something down in writing. The challenge is it's very difficult to to stay in the conversation long enough when you put stuff in writing. So the main big killer, and I was having a conversation. I believe this is actually documented. But it was a conversation with john stepper from working out loud. And I think he actually I don't know if we've documented he actually captured it live. He said the biggest challenge of working out loud circles getting people together for 12 weeks is the scheduling and the time once you actually get there, the stuff works, but getting there is the big challenge. And I'll leave that one there. And thanks a lot. Please hit me up. Best way to get ahold of me is on Yak and why ac.com forward slash Justin F. Or you can DM me wherever you're actually seeing this on LinkedIn, Justin Finkelstein it happy to help support some of the accountability structures that you have in place right now. Or some new ones that you want to create.

In part one of an excellent series on AI product management, LinkedIn Research Scientist Peter Skomoroch and O’Reilly VP of Content Strategy Mike Loukides explained the importance of aligning AI products with your business plans and strategies. In other words, they have to deliver value, and they have to be delivered on time. Unfortunately, this is much easier said than done. I was curious to learn more about what goes into the complex AI product development process, and so for answers I turned to Yelp VP of Data Science Justin Norman, who collaborated with Peter and Mike in the O’Reilly series of articles. Justin is a career data professional and data science leader with experience in multiple companies and industries, having served as director of research and data science at Cloudera Fast Forward Labs, head of applied machine learning at Fitbit, head of Cisco’s enterprise data science office, and as a big data systems engineer with Booz Allen Hamilton. He also served as a Marine Corps Officer with a focus in systems analytics. We covered: Justin’s definition of a successful AI product The two key components behind AI products The lessons Justin learned building his first AI platform and what insights he applied when he went to Yelp. Why AI projects often fail early on, and how teams can better align themselves for success. Who or what Beaker and Bunsen are and how they enable Yelp to test over 700 experiments at any one time. What Justin learned at an airline about approaching problems from a ML standpoint vs. a user experience standpoint—and what the cross-functional team changed as a result. How Yelp incorporates designers, UX research, and product management with its technical teams Why companies should analyze the AI, ML and data science stack and form a strategy that aligns with their needs. The critical role of AI product management and what consideration Justin thinks is the most important when building a ML platform How Justin would approach AI development if he was starting all over at a brand new company Justin’s pros and cons about doing data science in the government vs. the private sector. Quotes from Today’s Episode “[My non-traditional background] gave me a really broad understanding of the full stack [...] from the physical layer all the way through delivering information to a decision-maker without a lot of time, maybe in an imperfect form, but really packaged for what we're all hoping to have, which is that value-add information to be able to do something with.” - Justin “It's very possible to create incredible data science products that are able to provide useful intelligence, but they may not be fast enough; they may not be [...] put together enough to be useful. They may not be easy enough to use by a layperson.” -Justin “Just because we can do things in AI space, even if they're automated, doesn't mean that it's actually beneficial or a value-add.” - Justin “I think the most important thing to focus on there is to understand what you need to be able to test and deploy rapidly, and then build that framework.” - Justin “I think it's important to have a product management team that understands the maturity lifecycle of building out these capabilities and is able to interject and say, ‘Hey, it's time for us to make a different investment, either in parallel, once we've reached this milestone, or this next step in the product lifecycle.’” - Justin “...When we talk about product management, there are different audiences. I think [Yelp’s] internal AI product manag

San Antonio's own, Tim Maloney, a son of personal injury lawyer legend Pat Maloney and personal injury attorney himself joins us to talk about his other interest. Tim is one of the producers of Southern Charm: New Orleans which is on Bravo. He has also produced movies, documentaries and is here to talk about that path and upcoming projects. Transcript: Justin Hill: Hello in Bienvenido, San Antonio. Welcome to the Alamo Hour discussing the people, places and passion that make our city. My name is Justin Hill, a local attorney, a proud San Antonion and keeper of chickens and bees. On the Alamo Hour, you'll get to hear from the people that make San Antonio great and unique and the best kept secret in Texas. We're glad that you're here. All right. Today's guest is a movie producer, television reality show producer, former Riverwalk restaurant tour/bar owner, local injury attorney and one of my very best friends Tim Maloney. Tim, thank you for being here. Tim Maloney: I appreciate the opportunity, sir. Justin: Tim, we're not going to talk about the things- you and I like to talk about at bars, which is usually law and other high-minded things. I want to talk to you a little bit about some of your passions outside of the law. How did you get into television producing? Tim: Seventh grade Maria Fleming, I wanted to make out with her. The reason I got into it was I produced Charlie Brown Christmas show and I cast her. I injected a controversial scene to the seventh grade production, which of course got me suspended, and that was she actually kissed Snoopy. That's absolute true story. That's how I got started in production. Justin: It turns species love scene? Tim: Pretty much. By the way, very controversial, not only the kiss with the beagle, but the beagle was also a female in a costume. I was actually, shall we say, ahead of my time. Justin: You were definitely ahead of your time. For everybody to know, I have warned at Tim and let him know that this is a family friendly podcast, and we're only going to talk about family friendly things today. Tim: They were very friendly. Justin: Okay, well, Snoopy. Tim: They were lovable. You all love Snoopy. Justin: Tim, I want to talk to you more about the TV and stuff like that. We're probably not going to talk much about the law. I'm going to start with a top 10 for everybody because I think it's important to just get a little bit of a slice of who you are. You're never going to know what they but they're going to be pretty simple, okay. Tim: I'll give it my best shot. Justin: All right. I know the answers to a lot of these, but some I don't. First, do you have any pets? Tim: Yes, I do. Justin: Cats? Tim: Yes. Justin: Feral? Tim: Very feral. Justin: You got feral cats you feed, but you name them? Tim: They like Will Ferrell, but they're also like some of the other SNL characters do. Justin: All right. Cheri Oteri? Tim: Actually, they were more old school, Eddie Murphy in the day. Justin: What's your favorite restaurant right now? Tim: Boy, I would say the Palace at lunch. Justin: What's the buffet special there? Tim: Sushi. [laughs] Cut. You have to edit that out. Justin: What were going to try it again. What is your favorite restaurant eat-out right now? Tim: A signature I think right now is on top of their game. Justin: The [unintelligible 00:02:46] ridiculous? Tim: It's really good. I did not want to like it, and it's now my new go-to. Justin: I'm embarrassed that I know what that is, but it's pretty good. Tim: It's really tasty. Justin: I think I know the answer to this. What is your favorite go-to hidden gem in San Antonio? Tim: Boy, hidden gym. Justin: Doesn't have to be a bar, doesn't have to be restaurant, can be just anything in the city that you think, man if you want your PhD and know in San Antonio, you've got to know this place. Tim: I would say the library then in my street. Justin: I was going to say the Japanese tea garden for you because

We finally made it to the Atlas! Look out white maps, here we come!Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Hey there. Welcome to Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host, Justin A K Tags.Tyler: And I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days. Well, we made it Number five. Yeah. Good. Good. We're doing the best of episodes, Ari.Justin: Yeah, where we're at, like, take 41. RoughlyTyler: way. Our we've been We've been giggling trying to start this podcast for, like, the last hour.Justin: You know, actually, you saying that makes me want to just quickly jumped the gun a little bit because I noticed, if you're one of your notes was just how incredible your giggle is.Tyler: So I obviously listen to the podcast. Once you've finished editing them, Justin does everything. By the way, I just sit here and giggle and make fun of him. But after he's edited and what we get to listen to it, I like to listen to it to see what it, of course, sounds, likes weak and make it better make the next episode better and better and constructive criticism I have noticed now that I really ate my giggle. I sound so lame. Gable. It sounds totally fine in my head. I feel like a manly man when I giggle in my head. But my goodness, when I giggle when I hear from the outside, it's brutal.Justin: So that just shows how impressive it is that for four episodes I've been editing your giggle just to increase the highs. I'm just kidding. I should think this is going to be, like, really high.Tyler: No, this episode I'm gonna Ha, ha.Justin: That is hilarious. Yes, I am. Anyway, that made me think of it. You said giggle. It's your fault. Uh, all right, So tell me anyway, tell me about your build. You've been doing it. I mean, do refresher on your building where you're at right now. Let's let's hear it.Tyler: All right. Um, I finally had some time to gets maps, which was nice. I finished last few acts quite quickly. I like those last acts because there's very few side quest you need to do for extra passive points and finally got endgame. Tried to do it with my leveling gear, which wasn't special. It's not leveling gears, just whatever dropped. So I was pretty bad on resist. Tried to do. I know 5 to 10 maps with it, and, uh, just before the podcast started. I finally capped my resists, but damage is good and survivability would be good. I'm really liking it. I don't know what people are complaining about a lot of fun. Single target damage isn't great, but the game's a lot harder to so anyway,Justin: where you build when you say people complaining, Are you referring to just in general or specifically to your build?Tyler: Sorry specifically for that guide? I'm referring to the which building I do, and I'm doing my sion build. It's Ah, deadeye and inquisitor. It's elemental hit with attached to What's it called? It's still the list of support the ballistic totem support, Lester told him, Supports really weak. You basically need four totems, even though it only gives you three. You have to go find 1/4 told him just to make it worthwhile. But I'm quite liking it. And because you're constantly moving and laying the totems with elemental hit and with crit and with all the extra ailments that air happening freezing and shocking, it's I I really like it so far. I mean, I have a four, a blue four link, and, uh, I've been fine, so I'm excited to get a a nice five link.Justin: Your survivability, though, seems to be at least reasonable. So far, you're reallyTyler: very easy. It was really easy while levelling, of course, ramps up a bit once you get into the atlas. But, um, I had 19% fire resist, and I think 55 or 60 Ah, lightning resist. And there's a lot more chaos damage and oh, my goodness. I redid the graveyard. I did the new graveyard boss fight, and that's cool. I don't know if that was in our notes somewhere, so I don't want to jump ahead.Justin: I don't think I've actually done graveyard yet.Tyler: Oh, the chaos. I just love how viable chaos is. I feel like it's syndicate, but without needing the crazy nurse that syndicate needed for a month straight, it's There's so much more chaos, damage, um, the new I don't really want to spoil it, but for the podcast tried Well, for you, the graveyard boss battle that used to just be you'd go into that crypt, right? And then to be that I mean, it's changed a couple of times now. I think it's a change it again and Now it's kind of like an open crypt area where you fight one of the skeleton bosses that existed in campaign. But then, once you beat that one whole wave of enemies come. And then a second skeleton boss comes because I think you can do that. Different ones, Yes, and I love it. There's shocking to let crazy. They're throwing chaos, damage at you from from range. I really liked it and especially because it's what. But it dropped for me. I think it was my fifth map. I don't know if it's Tier 12 or three. I forget, but it was when you're not really set with your resists. That's a punishing boss battle, and I really liked it. But back to the build, I just finished capping my resists and survivability was pretty easy before, so it's gonna be a lot better now.Justin: Nice and damage with elemental hit and ballisticTyler: clearing is no problem. Single target damage requires some patients, Um, but not only for the impatient, I guess you could say, um, I don't find that for me. I'm used to a slower paced game, and I don't find it tedious by any means. umJustin: Well, you actually, because under a single target apartment, do you think you'll do anything to change single target? Like, do you have any plans for?Tyler: Yeah, right now I'm using a blue Oh, right. Four link. Yeah. I'm using a blue for link right now. So it all it does, it's giving me 7 18% attack speed and 24% elemental damage. So I knew the second I even even if I had a white five link or a nice yellow four link, I don't think it would be a problem at all.Justin: Nice. Yes. So, me, I am doing spectral throw, still sticking with it, and, uh, I'm into maps. I've gotten past all of the, you know, the levelling, all that good stuff. Ah, it's been decent. It's solar cell. Found for me is a whole new breed of playing this game. I'm just so used to, ah, hit endgame by some of the gear that I want to at least make the maps a little easier to clear. Make sure I've got ah, you know, the right resists. But the build that I'm just playing around with is working. Fine. Now that I've got my gem slots set up. I'm still also only running off of a four link chest, so that'll make a big difference once I can do that. And I'm swapping GMP for ah, slower projectile still, which I probably I probably will do through the whole thing anyway. So it's it's been not bad. It's a little a little slow, uh, had huge hiccups as I was leveling and I'm realizing I think I made that. We made the comment that we were chatting that weapons hold. My gosh, Did they ever make such a big difference? Like,Tyler: Oh, and I love it. I love it.Justin: Yeah, it's It's nice. It's just it's I feel different. It's weird that that's different. I mean, you've always needed to upgrade weapons, obviously toe to scale your damage, but I don't know if it's just spectral throw. I don't know if it's if there was a specific change that's made that different, but I have found that without that, that constant upgrade to weapons which, by the way, upgrading Klaus Sucks is brutal. To find Klaus that have reasonable roles, especially cousin went straight physical, it's really hard to find replacement clause Once I've got something that's rolled plus physical and plus percentage physical, I can't It's really, really hard to find something that will improve that.Tyler: Catch him Well, I mean, I know your pain. I'm still using my blue four links. So, um, but it's I just love. I think it has everything to do with just the changes that they made to defense in the how bosses they're scale. All the extra armor and chaos and elemental resists. And for everyone, I just I just love that update where they made them harder to kill, but they don't hit harder. I mean, some of the boss mechanics had changed dramatically, which makes them a lot harder to, But it just makes weapons that much more important. And I love it because for melee, they're much more dependent on weapons than any other type of, um, build. I would say, like if you're doing spells, you can get away with not needing a fantastic wander staff, right? Or don't whatever also you're using. But when you're doing spells, you don't need something epic. It's just great to have opinions. You don't need anything, but of course, it's just mid. Maxine if you want to get a convicting one with sweet rolls Malays desperate for a good melee weapon. And I love that right after they have a melee league, they come out, they buff stuff to make melee weapons Much more important, I think it's really cool. I love how they did it.Justin: It is, Yeah, I think if I had maybe thought a little differently into ah, maybe it may be a different skill, or I don't know if I could have incorporated different types of weapons, but I just I feel like for a solo cell found I made it harder than I needed to because I've just I've struggled to roll clause that are good to use,Tyler: are you? Claw OnlyJustin: while I'm spect into a lot of the claw nodes just for the the engine for the crit. ButTyler: that's that's one of those things than that, I guess you kind of cornered yourself into then.Justin: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I'm now, uh, into maps. I've gotten it. Did the atlas. I mean, maze will just jump a little bit too. That is kind of cool. I've again, I'm not super far into it of ah, unlocked out Zana. So she's back. I've had these weird encounters with the the new the new bosses, like have just spawned And I can remember the name of the one that I've seen, but he kind of just spawned in, yelled at me and then took off and it just got the notification to keep following him. And I'mTyler: like, Yeah, I had that and I couldn't see what was happening. The map was still busy and I heard some dialogue. I didn't really know what it was, and yeah, that's to read it at the same time.Justin: So I'm I've noticed that as I've done more maps in that quadrant, um, he's popped up a few times. I haven't gotten much further into how that whole system works, but what I will say is, on top of the hole, okay? Trying to figure out weapons as I'm going along it further to what you were talking about with your build. My God resists so resist to me has always they've always been king. You get to endgame, you get resists. You just have to. I have never felt Maur than this league like yes, you Absolutely have to capture resists. It is especially getting into these these new bosses. Yeah, I don't know if he just happens to be lightning based or why everything is lightning. But after he popped up the bosses, or just like random rare Tze and just mobs would all of a sudden spawned with additional lightning damage, they would put these things on the ground. They were shooting. It was killing me so quickly and I think was in 40 48% or so, which normally obviously that's not great. But normally in a tear to map, I wouldn't be Oh, you know, I really need to be in 75. I just be working to get gear. And as I captured that cap it, I had no choice but to actually start adjusting my gear and what it made a huge difference, which I'm not had a lead like that before. And I started thinking because the first it pissed me off first thing I was like Oh my God, so tired of dying. And then, as I started to, you know, just the gear and especially with SSF, it makes it a little bit harder. But the the ability to now have to actually plan around capping my resists walk, maintaining life and damage. It's actually made it kind of fun. Yeah, it really has.Tyler: Yeah, I'm really a one thing. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. And one thing that I think I already mentioned it. But just in case I didn't turn now, only thought it. It used to be that you could just ignore chaos. Resist for so many of your bills until syndicate came along, you could ignore your your chaos resistant. You could just do your three elements. Now I feel with all the different roles they've done, they've added a lot of chaos, damage to some big, big boss battles and a lot of the metamorphose stuff. Specifically, it's almost like you can't get away. You It's always gonna have some sort of chaos. A we it's really made it so that you need all four. Captain. Oh, I used to just do the three. I'm sure many died. Many did. But I'm really finding the value and crafting some of those chaos rules just to at least get to the baseline of 0%. I think I saw this in a lot of chaos. Damage?Justin: Yeah, I have to. I don't know if I found it as, um it's definitely beneficial. I'm not at minus 60. I think I'm at 35 or something. So it's not. It's not zero, but it's definitely better than nothing but it to me. He was not as bad as the I don't know Lightning. I couldn't believe the difference from 48 to 75 obviously that's always gonna be a huge difference. It's just never been a huge difference. A tear to Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I've always felt like Okay, I'm getting into, like, six. You're seven. You know, it's time to actually start really paying attention to everything. Yeah, this is like it's cool. It's really cool, because that one of the complaints I've had in the past is just end Game now had become stale, so I think it's aTyler: sexy independence all the way through. Maybe we won't think that in the fifth league of this end game, butJustin: yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how the endgame all works yet, so it's kind of hard to say, but I am enjoying The metamorphose stuff is sometimes enjoyable. I've started to get some of the boss ones the ones that you actually collect. I haven't Not enough to actually do much with them. Ah, some of them have been reasonable. But even still, some of them are very, very difficult, Which is good. I don't mind. I don't mind not being able to kill a boss like a meta morph boss. Yet if I made it too strong and I'm like, Oh, God, this I just can't do it. Yeah, it sucks for me. I gotta learn to the next one.Tyler: I've heard a lot of people. Well, whether it's within my guides air on Reddit complained that it's too difficult And then there's some people of the mentality that a lake just turn. Just turn the difficulty down like you're not forced to do the hardest one. And if your build can't do it, don't do it on. And then there's other people that think. I've heard the complaints that they should be able to do the hardest ones, and I don't like that I like the you know, it should be terrifying to do the hardest. Have you got all the body parts in the map? It should be terrifying. You should expect it to be a long time or you should I don't know. You know what I mean? Totally beat Easy for you shouldn't expect to do it with mediocre everything.Justin: Yeah, I totally agree to me. It goes back to bay two days and like the early release days where there were some builds just could not do it, you just couldn't. And it wasn't It wasn't something broken in the game. It was something you did just didn't work. And you either adjusted or I mean, then it was start over. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've been I've been relatively pleased so far. I mean, I'm pretty early into the tears of the palace, but I found the difficulty to be decent. Uh, I mean, for me, for path of Exile, it's rewarding enough. Antemortem is adding the ability to get a lot of cool stuff that you couldn't get in other ways before you had to do specific league things to do it. So that's kind of fun.Tyler: Yeah, it is. It's It's really cool. I think they've done a very good job. I know that there's glitches for people that are a lot farther into endgame. Unlike us, we're still in our white maps. But, um, I think in terms of stability, this was really, really good. I just, um I forget where this isn't a list. So cut me off. If I'm too far ahead of myself. I just really wish that what they did was introduce this next league. But I love the new endgame, and I'm really excited about it. But to introduce a brand new endgame and then go on a skeleton crew for Christmas, it doesn't make sense to me.Justin: Yeah, but I think that's also for you. Somewhat related to other things. Not just specifically the league. The big leaguesTyler: challenges, but they're they're running into they. Some of the stuff that I'm watching this one is a little bit farther down, but the guy that I watch relax r o l a X on mixer. His issues are very different than mine. I'm waiting for cause I play standard. I'm waiting for the map tab to get fixed, but that's not gonna happen till after Christmas, because they have one person that works on the map tapping there on vacation. So but roll axes. His issue is he's getting to engage with every single character that he makes. He's already on. His fourth character is crushing Endgame, and his issue is that there's a glitch with Final Boss. And I've seen lots of stuff in the patch notes about the final Boss is and how they're glitches and they're not dropping this or they're not. You know, this, that another thing and he can'tJustin: What's the alternative? I mean, you're suggesting that they push of a game changing league to a ah, further release so that they don't have it come over Christmas,Tyler: right? I don't think any time you're gonna have a skeleton crew for two weeks, even if it's just one week, I really especially because it's going to be what, a three week point of the league right? Like this came out December 9. I think it was to have Christmas two and 1/2 3 weeks later, after you've completely revamped the entire endgame, I don't know.Justin: Yeah, I don't know what to me. It's hard, though, because if they come up with a league that barely has any changes just because they're gonna have a skeleton crew. That league ends up being garbage. It's people. People may not play it. I mean, the thing is, if they go, if they go skeleton crew, Firth, whatever it is, 2 to 3. I don't even think it's three weeks, two weeks, three weeks. Someone like that. Two weeks to, um, that's better to me than three months of, Ah garbage league.Tyler: Well, but imagine Metamor for the old Atlas. To me,Justin: that's fantastic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't knowTyler: how everything Woods with how it all works, right, Like, it's been a long time since I've worked in the video game industry, and when I did, I wasn't at the top of the food chain making the decisions with all the decisions that the higher ups need to make. But it's just for me. It's every Christmas. I really don't get to play until the new year, when the league comes out and then it's gonna be the Christmas League, as I call it as a standard player. I don't get to play until January, so it kind of sucks. ButJustin: I don't see the alternative to that, though, and I think that I mean, I I can see where you're talking about in the fact that it's ah ah, huge game changing league and it comes out right before they. I don't know how often else in the year they even have skeleton crews. I imagine it's not very often, but ah, I would rather I would rather it affect the I mean, people may really, really be angry about the fact that I say it or that they may disagree with me in some sense. But it's affecting the people who have a lot of time and have power rushed to end game, which is awesome, like That's cool that they have done it. But I imagine that that portion of the player base is small compared to the players who are still working their way up through be Atlas and you're never going to make it perfect. Old big release almost ever has been Yeah, so there's going to be something that goes wrong to me. At least there's nothing game breaking and even the ones I've read night for league players and but I don't care about standard, but I mean, even on center,Tyler: You're in the minority there.Justin: No, I'm definitely. I definitely know for sure. Not on that. Most of them. I might be in the minority that when I'm definitely not. But even your issue, it's still very specific, too. A mechanic not working. Not all mechanics not working now. Granted, it's a pretty I read that they, like, literally turned it off, right, Like they just turned off the convert button. I thought I heard. Yeah, yeah,Tyler: yeah, they did. It turned off, and it's true. I could play it. I could spend 15 bucks and get a new map stash tab.Justin: No, I don't think you should. And I agree, like frustration that comes from that. But I don't think you'll ever have a league release that's going to be perfect off the bat, even 2 to 3 weeks, and hopefully it's as close as possible. But I read the complaints. I've read the comments that they've made. They're not. It works. There's just some stuff. That's your rape. It's kind of frustrating for such is, but it's not broken. I would rather like I said, I would rather have maybe 2 to 3 weeks of Okay, this is stupid. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and then they're coming back, and they're gonna fix it. Uh, and they still have staff working. It's not like a game. Breaking bugs is just going to go on because they want to enjoy Christmas. God forbid. But yet, uh, if if that means that, okay, I gotta wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to fix something that is really just irritating me versus having to deal with three months of a league that I found boring because they wanted to make sure not to get people upset. I feel like that's maybe worse. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't mind it, but I'm not there, so it's not affecting me.Tyler: Yeah, way need to. I need to be more familiar with the endgame bugs that are happening to. But you've almost converted me almost. You may have let them have Christmas tie. Just let them have Christmas am. I am. But have Christmas with the old atlas, all right? Just bored again. So remember last episode we're talking about holy and showing up. I was all mystified. I thought it was fantastic that when you click on a crafting recipe, yeah, she just appears Yes, you know, she'd smoke bombs like a ninja turtle on, comes in and says her little piece and then goes away. I thought that was a really cool little thing. Um, so I hear you've been a little disappointed with the frequency of it. Now,Justin: is it just our last time that we talked about with that when this you first brought this up? Yeah, I think it was just last episode. Yes, So it was. It must have been, cause that's when I finally got some free time to play and every freaking recipe I would zoom in my damn camera, click it. And there were times I think I was even streaming at one point so you could watch, and I clicked it, and I I message you and said you're you're freaking liar. She didn't jump up and you said, Oh, it's because you were standing right in front of it. I was like, Oh, okay, maybe it wasTyler: always your fault.Justin: Now I will just say I was about to go into it. I was in a trial when I got that one. So I went to the next one and it actually kind of irritated me a little bit because the next one I found was within just the regular story of the game. So I moved off to the side, clicked it, and sure enough, she popped up. I was like, God damn it, Tyler was right. Yeah, And she did, like, smokes in. And she says, Ah, I think she said the same line every time. Something about this is very interesting. And then she smoke clouds out. But it's only the more I did it, the more I was watching it. She she doesn't so nothing related to a lab. Nothing related to trials will ever show up. Nothing related to delve will ever show up. And once you beat the game, that's it. She's done. She doesn't show up in maps. WhyTyler: do itjust campaign? I was really surprised. That's dumb. Yeah, whyJustin: I don't understand is that there's no Maybe somebody knows some weirdo lower to the game that somehow stopped actin that she couldn't help you with the recipesTyler: anymore. Well, maybe maybe they'll add it more if it's a new thing that we just have If it's new right and we didn't miss it before, maybe it's just they're adding it in and then they'll be able to add it to more. As, uh, maybe you just would have added, you know, to my previous complaint about having a new atlas. Maybe it just would've added more possible glitches when they were going on. No, no. HowJustin: hard could it have been? Toe added toe labs to delve, too. Maps everywhere.Tyler: Every little thing you add. Construe something elseJustin: does nothing. She's she literally does. She is. She's not even an actual like thing that interferes with you. You can walk right through her. She does nothing. It's like she's not there. It's dumb. Just put it into all of them. I irritated me more so than anything that you told me about it, because I remember it took me. It took me so much longer to get through some of the acts because I would run into them and be like, Okay, maybe, Maybe if I stand a little bit over here. No. Yeah. She doesn't show up in those places through.Tyler: Well, I hate you more than you hate me for Helena, Because you're playing solo Cell found this time for the first time in forever. And you couldn't give me the ridiculous Val City way point.Justin: You know it was you this times you I found it almost right away.Tyler: Oh, I don't even want to hear your solo. No. Found luck with a locked. Why did he lock? Hold your hand and show, YouJustin: know, but But something pointed the way I could tell. I could sense it. It was those fireflies they were leading.Tyler: Yeah, fireflies that don't stack in your inventory. Um,Justin: crabby old man. Yeah, I found I found that when I found thanks for not beingTyler: able to give you $2 city waypoint. I appreciate it.Justin: You have to work for things. That's how you enjoy the gameTyler: Can. The Bell City is really enjoyable.Justin: It's annoying because it not only is it probably one of the most frustrating spots to find it for, but then also, the next level that you load into is the freaking longest set of map or area. I think in the whole game that hope Rose is to get down to the spider. Oh, my God, It's exhausting. it's worse than Vow. Pyramid Way Worse, I don't know why. Maybe it's God's going down instead of up.Tyler: Well, it's twice as long. Yeah, well, Pyramid, I think it's three levels and then you're actually at the top. Whereas when you're going down to the spider, it's three levels and then you're just another second section, and then it's another three levels. If I'm correct, it's I don't mind that part, though. That one's relatively easy to navigate. And there's not a lot of wrong turns, not a fan. I don't mind the maps that get me, Um, but that's just because of my concussion. Symptoms and stuff are the maps with trees and the trees that go in front of the screen. Um, what would be one deal? I don't know howJustin: Jungle is brutal. I actually noticed that just today I was thinking to myself, Okay, we're talking about that whole technology of the stuff is cutting. You go through jungle. The trees do not fade it all, they say, right up in your face through the hole. I was like, Why would they not have these ones fade out? I don't know if it's just because it's older, and maybe it's more difficult for them to do that. But it is really weird to me that jungle, the jungle map Jungle Valley. The maps do not fade or sorry, the trees don't fade. Yeah, it's kind of weird.Tyler: Yeah. And you, old atlas. I would never, ever shaped the ones that had those tall trees that will go in front of the camera. It was just too too nauseated for me.Justin: Would it change it if if it had that effect, where they they weren't really? I mean, that kind of see through,Tyler: um Well, there's that. What was it? Is it Lava lake map that had, um I don't know if they're the same. A CZ they used to be. But the lab a lake when they had caught Eva was a tear 14 or 15 last week. That had some trees. Cem, Cem. Nice apple trees. ErJustin: over there. Just little ones rightTyler: there. Well, they were. They were big, They didn't go all the way up across the screen, and it would have that technology where it would fade so you could see yourself on the other side. That still gets me a little bit, but it's nowhere near as bad as something that's crossing my eyes really fast. Like car driving through and, you know, shaded woods Interest. Bang, bang, bang. Just shade hitting. You left, right and center.Justin: Yeah, it's funny. I just I literally just today was doing Jungle Valley and thought of that. Come on. And then I did. I think it was right after we finished Episode four. Maybe that next day I finally got to play, and I'm I'm running through an area goingTyler: the hell areJustin: these things popping up? My screen is unlike running through killing stuff. And yeah, that's the monster parts picking up. Yeah. Is that I'm sure people listening to it Or like what a whiny baby like it's alreadyTyler: faced. I'm sorry. Fix happen hour later, but what do you think of it?Justin: Uh, I I do like it. Obviously, I actually this is just me being a turd. I'm not a big fan of the way it shows up, because it and maybe we'll just take a bit of getting used to playing more to get used to it. But it throws me off for some reason, a little bit And maybe it's just cause I'm not playing a very fast build. I'm not moving super quickly through the map or through the zone. There's something about the way it pops up that just throws me off from looking at what the drops are to the interest at part going up. But I I love it. I absolutely love the fact that I don't care what it does. I don't care what flash my whole screen. The fact that it I don't have to be. Oh, I don't have to go and pick them all up is so much better. Yeah. You like it?Tyler: I like the animation. Yeah, I like it. I don't get distracted with it. I don't get it mixed up with other possible drops. I really like it. And the thing that I I don't know if this was how it used to be, because you and I have progressed slowly, but whether it was added new or not, I love that when you're about to go through a portal or a door. Um, what's his name shows up.Justin: Oh, yeah, kind of warns you.Tyler: Yeah, but I like that, you know, because I'm going to go through and I'm gonna clear the map. How I normally cleared I don't go out of my way for any lead content if it's going to be, You know, if if there's two monsters left and I'm missing one body part, I'm not going for it. So it's nice when I'm vote to go into this or I'm gonna portal. Oh, that he shows up. He's like a Okay, let's use up your pieces. Yeah, I like it. I think it was a very it was a gamer's choice, You know what I mean? Whoever came up with that idea, it was it was the gamer in them that came up with that. That was really convenient.Justin: Yeah, I think it is. Good, cause I would probably forget Maur often than not if if he didn't do that, and I'd probably load the next map and be like, damn it, I forgot to use up those parts. So that's at least good. Now, did you Did you get Ah, Did you get your Christmas gift from G, which I feel like you should take away from you? I feel like people who are complaining about them going to skeleton staff don't deserveTyler: a gift. I don't maybe. Oh, everything. Oh, they deserve a wicked Christmas. Well, old Atlas.Justin: So what you're saying, though, is the people that stay working what I'm saying? That'sTyler: qu'est er of words. No. Um, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.Justin: Did you get you get from them there? It was one of the boxes. Right.Tyler: Okay, well, you got I do not. What? But it was white.Justin: So I on on that same topic, because I I did get, um, a gift. I got the white, uh, missed, I think for the for your base, The white It's like, OK, but I also I decided I was going to do the grand sanctum pack because I really like the wings. And I like the outfit. That was the thing is the $60 pack. I'm still I'm still boycotting. Currently, there their core packs. I just Maybe I might really I might buy this the snake one just because it's, you know, it's it is a little bit unique, but I just can't I I was like, Well, I don't see myself going this time for there's no shirt. So why spend 240 bucks? But ah, it So I bought the couple of the boxes. I have 55 versions of God. What is it? The blink. Ah, it's one of the skills that they went there. No, no, no, it's Ah, it's not whirling blades. It's something Blade. What is it called, anyway? It's I have five of them. I hate that. That's the one thing that drives me crazy. You know, all I want is a damn portal. I think I've opened maybe 20 boxes, so not like a ton, but 25% of them have been the same thing killing me, G.Tyler: But I got to say, normally I'm I'm portals, is what it kind of revolves around for me. You know, you need to have a nice portal that matches the set. And because it's so much bigger and brighter, that color stands out to the others that you can get away with footprints that don't aren't the exact shade of white or green that you're looking for to match your set. You know what I mean? Because it's much farther away and it phase and it's busy, but portal portals really stand out there there the whole time. You stand next time for a while. The grand sanctum support pack is so nice that I'm gonna get it, even though I don't like at a normal that could match it.Justin: Well, give me a portal that you have because there's portals that mattersTyler: and that really, I don't think so. Well, sometimes it's also it's not just the color. It's also the action that the portal does, or the colors and how it goes. You know what I mean? AndJustin: wings air really cool with it, though.Tyler: I love it. I love it. I'm, uh I'll be getting it as soon as we're done.Justin: I'm actually using some of the white armor that I got from the boxes with the grand sanctum, but, uh, yeah, I I don't remember. I do have two of the white floaty mists. Uh, you can put in your base. I also I don't think you've seen it yet, but I have I did get that new base, butTyler: so did you.Justin: Yeah, the completely I did it mostly because I knew it would drive Ethan crazy. And so I loaded it up. I put it in there with absolutely nothing. And I just spaced the characters out, and I When he walked by my office, I was like, Look, check out how awesome this is. And he was upset right away. And I told him it's going to stay like that All league. I'm not gonna put anything down. If anything, I might put like a fire pit for some random reason. Like one fire pit.Tyler: Well, it's cold in the stars. Yep. It's gonna look awesome. So you can sit cross leggedJustin: and put all of my petsTyler: so they can float around. And don't forget you're missed.Justin: Oh, yeah. I should put down that white mist. I'm gonna put it in a corner just so that when people visit, I'd be like, Hey, did you see there's twoTyler: also you. I'll even give you a discount. But you've got to go in the mist.Justin: There's two of them up there, but I love that they give those little boxes. I think it's fun.Tyler: Yeah, they're very generous company. And every time I realized that we've complained about something in the game that I don't like or you don't like, I feel really bad. I don'tJustin: feel bad, and I think it's good. It's I don't think we're being fixed. It's no, I get it. ITyler: get. It's constructive. But I still when I really when I remember that it's free and everything's free. I feel like a prick.Justin: Well, I mean, you're a prick, but it doesn't mean that they're doingTyler: anything wrong. I'm not the one that went solo. Cell found. You're a prick.Justin: Yeah, but you also said that they don't deserve a merry Christmas.Tyler: No, I said enjoy your merry Christmas with the old Atlas.Justin: I think I think it isTyler: you not being able to give me the Val City waypoint is way worse than anything anyone else has ever done toJustin: me. I think that merry Christmas box makes up for the bugs. So two people complaining about the bugs. At least you got a box,Tyler: right? And he didn't play peewee a Christmas. You're not a real fan. Anyway. It's true, right, Britta?Justin: At least to log in. Get your freaking box.Tyler: You did have to be in game to get it. Well, you couldn't click on it on the website.Justin: Yeah, but you didn't have to be on that day.Tyler: I remember.Justin: I got mine today, I think because I didn't go on you saidTyler: you were on yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I was able to finish my just for the box. No, no, I was able to finish an actor to yesterday. I think it was yesterday that I got two maps. Who? I think the boxes logging in until January 6.Justin: Oh, yes. I didn't think it was just the single day that that would be a jerk. Move. Geez, like,Tyler: Well, we're a little Bell City. Wait points a jerk. MoveJustin: How? We're at home enjoying our Christmas. If you don't log into the video game on that day, you don't get it. Uh,Tyler: enjoy your family, Bond.Justin: Yeah, I don't think anything we've said is mean spirited. And yeah, I think we're fair. We're now We're nice people in general, right?Tyler: Well, one of us, one of me. That's true. Yeah.Justin: So that's why did I look through the post that they made because they had put up a post about like, uh, some of the known issues that they were going to deal with, But I didTyler: nothing in there really,Justin: like, stood out to me like Oh my gosh, I can't play this. I will be honest. There is one that says the convert maps button in the map stash tab has been temporarily disabled as there were problems converting to the new layout. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I laughed so hard when I read that. Why fly? What? You've just popped into my head instantly. I don't know why you just made me laugh. I was like, Oh, but they're listening. Listen,Tyler: every time the game updates whether waiting for you and I hate how long steam takes to frickin update a 30 makeup date. But anyway, when I'm I mean, it gives me 10 hours. Thank you, Steam for being able to check the patch notes every time I'm just control f that I see my console game updating him like, Oh, well, maybe because they group their patches together for Consul cause they don't promote us frequently. I don't know how it works in the console back end, but that's really do. And so then I'm like, Oh, sweet, Maybe maybe a new one came out for PC today, and then I control control F on the patch notes for Xbox. You mad? I'm excited. It'll happenJustin: yet to me. When I read through this stuff there was, I think only one that maybe kind of popped out to me is like, Okay, this is actually something they need to work on. And it was releasing legion generals during legion encounters can cause a client crash. I think something that can actually crashed the game, that that's a bit of a problem. And that mostly just cause we both dealt with leagues where I mean you, especially where that was an issue. So I can I can, you know, I can see that a little bit. But when I look at their posts that they put out and this is days before Christmas, I think this one popped up. I don't rember who posted it. Uh, it still impresses me like they're legitimately looking into stuff. They know stuff there, and they're gonna fix it. And the stuff that I was reading was not game breaking. Besides, the fact that the client could crash that that to me is a bit of a big deal. I had an issue with one of the valves side areas. Who cares? It was not a big deal. It took into when I when I exited, it didn't bring me back. So where I had entered into the map, I actually thought it was cool. Yeah, I don't know. The rest of the stuff wasTyler: even something like Metamor. Fosse's not being able to be frozen were used to Boss is not be able to be frozen. It was just chill, right, Right. So I, you know, even with something that was frozen dependent, you're getting a very good chill on them, especially because it was buff. So that's not even a big problem either.Justin: Nothing stood out to me where on and again, that could have been because there have been stuff fixed that were more game breaking that I just never encounter because I hadn't gotten up there. But I didn't really stand out to Mia's thes terrible things.Tyler: Yeah, I can see the There's a There's an issue where the awakened cast on Krit um, is creating cooled elms where when there shouldn't be any, I could see that being a big issue for builds. But at the same time, you don't need the awakened jewel to have a successful build. SoJustin: you're already having a problem with an awakened version of a skill? Boo hoo. I don't feel bad for you. Even a tiny bit. A tiny bit. Put the cast on. CreatedTyler: for not to drop.Justin: Sure, I'm thrilled. If it didn't work on the lake first week of a league lunch, I wouldn't be like you wreckedTyler: my bill. No, you haven't. Go put the normalJustin: one in the one you used all the way up until you found that one. Yeah. Yeah, I saw. I don'tTyler: know if anybody's actually complaining about it, but we did see it on the bug report,Justin: right? I imagine it's probably because somebody complained about it. Ah, but yeah, I just It made me laugh. Yeah, there were. There were some really fun, uh, things that I saw in in red It actually in the last couple of days that made me laugh or not laugh with smile there. Only because I get so jealous I still haven't seen exults this league. Nothing cool has dropped yet besides garbage unique ce which is still fine. But the critic I that posted he did ah ah Contains a valuable gym. He got to You got enlightened and empower both level force. They dropped as a light on level four. Empower little for. And there was other stuff too, but oh, my gosh. I was like, What? The hacky. There was a screenshot of it, and I'm thinking in solar cell found I would leave in a heartbeat. I like buying stuff through a felon. I'm getting stuff, but it was crazy. And then, uh Okay, So there. Did you see? I don't know how often you check credit, but there was a helmet that somebody posted that was crafted. This was It was it was with that the ah, the awaken, her orb. So where you combined the two things? Now I feel like this is a lot because this helmet just Oh, man. Perfect. It's a meat. Well, yeah, it used to be. I mean, it sucks now because zombies are terrible, but Okay, I'm just gonna read through it.Tyler: I don't think they're terrible, ByJustin: the way, we're talking about a bone helmet. Yeah, Minion steal. 20%. Increased is the, uh,Tyler: got Ah. So a max. ImplicitJustin: max. Implicit of minions deal. 20% crease damage plus three toe level of soccer Did Minion Gems socket of gems. Air supported by level 18 million. Life soccer. The gems air supported by level, 18 million damage. Now, if it stopped here, you've already done really, really well. Like, really, really? Well, like last season. Last league. Oh, my God. You could have bought 20 years. It everybody wanted every freaking minion thing. Now, yeah, we're gonna continue on. Minions have 19% increase Max life minions deal 20%. Increased damage, 5% reduced manner. Reserved glow. And he had the intent on it for flesh offering. Granting an additional 21% increase. Attack speed for flesh. And then he had craft. That was insane. Lightning resist.Tyler: But nuts it is. Of course, it's incubating something just to make it even more exciting.Justin: I it just seemed fake when I read it. Yeah, I was like, Oh, my God. I would like last league. I would have liked just two of those options to force their six good things on there.Tyler: I can't tell you how much currency I've spent on console trying to get a plus three to the level of socket 1,000,000 Jim's. I still don't have it. I am trying everything. The craft. I'm going crazy. I make I I can't do it. I can't do it. And then here's this year's this.Justin: Yeah, it's just I don't know what he was crafting. Four. I did Rhea little bit about the threat, and the guy who actually crafted it kind of came on. It was like, I don't know what to do with this, which made me laugh because I would be the same way. I would have been really upset that I didn't have it last league because, I mean, it's awaken. Or that's new, though, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have really done it, but still,Tyler: no, but it doesn't have to. I mean, I know you're against how zombies were were cut down a bit, this league, but that's not so. I'll be specific by any means. No, I know. But so respect all Dominion buffs from last later still applicable. That thing's crazy but still insane. It's still absurd. That's something like, even if you had a mirror, you would just put that somehow on display just so that you could look at it sometimes,Justin: yeah, It's crazy. I couldn't believe it when I was reading through it. So cool. Yeah, I wanted to just give a quick show boat. We've gotten some pretty cool feedback from people that have been listening and people that have given us some advice and some constructive criticism. You know, the lovely kind, But I want to just give a shout out to all those people and, ah, we don't have a list of everyone, but we're going to start making a list because it's it's a really big deal to us. It really helps us figure out what we should do better for the next ones. And let us know that people enjoy the time that we share together, you know?Tyler: Yeah. No, it's It's been really cool. It's been a lot of fun. We're only five episodes in, but every episode has been listened to more than the previous one, and it's ah, it's exciting to see how it goes, but it's ah oh, we just want to say a big thank you to people that do find this enjoyable, and we definitely would value your feedback for sure. So I know we said at the end of every episode. But just to emphasize, if you tweet us at forever exiled 82. Just positive feedback, negative feedback. Whatever it is, we do want to make this a really good podcast for you and something that lots of path of exile players would really enjoy it here. So let us know what you think. We thank you very much for listening to all the episodes that you already have.Justin: If it's mean we'll start a Twitter war straight up. That's right. Fight to the death of Twitter. All right, cool. Well, listen, Thanks for everybody listening. This, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This was Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host tags, A k a JustinTyler: A key. I'm Tyler, also known as Wrecker of Days......ThanksJustin:  Check out the show Notes below. To find more information on today's episode, you can find us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82

Finance Friday with Steven Butala and Justin Sliva (LA 908) Transcript: Steven:                Stephen, Justin, and Jill here. Welcome to the Land Academy show. Entertaining land investment talk, I'm Steven Jack Butala with Justin Sliva. Jill:                          And Jill Dewit broadcasting from sunny Southern California and Justin:                   Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas. Steven:                Today Jill and I talk about, every Friday, Finance Friday and the deals that we're doing. Jill:                          And I get to be a guest. Today. Steven:                I know you love that. Jill:                          I know. Steven:                Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com community. It's free! Jill:                          Before we get into this, can I talk about what we just were talking about? Steven:                Sure. Jill:                          It's so flippin' funny. So we're doing two shows back to back right now. Recording two shows back to back and Justin's the only one who did the cost. See why I'm like, "Yeah whatever." Justin:                   You outed me! Steven:                Jill and I, this is show 908, 908 for us, and Justin, show number 12. So he's still excited, you know? We're just done with it. [crosstalk 00:01:05] Justin:                   I'm using the kids, threw me a bottle of water to I could lube up my throat. You've got two minutes, go go go! [crosstalk 00:01:17] My son is crawling under my desk right now to get out. Jill:                          Steven and I have our feet up today in recliners, whatever. Steven:                We're both a little buzzed from the night last night actually. Jill:                          Yeah it doesn't matter. Justin:                   Take another shot. Jill:                          Guy drops dead right now. Justin:                   I went to bed at 8:45 last night, now I feel horrible. We just went to bed early. We watched Jack Ryan. Jill:                          Oh cool, how was your birthday? I, last week- Justin:                   It was good! Yeah it was pretty low-key on the day before but me and my wife went out the weekend before. First time we've actually had a date, just us two, in probably five or six months, it'd been a while and I've been asking her, she's like doesn't want to leave the new baby with people. We went to the Mexican restaurant that we normally go to and I think we are going to split a pitcher of margaritas and she's like "I want this jalapeno margarita." So then I started drinking rum and Cokes. Nine later at the second bar we're at, with some great people watching us, a cool funk band on, so it was a lot of fun. Steven:                That's how the fourth child happens. Jill:                          Yeah. Careful! Justin:                   No, no. Unless I have another wife. [crosstalk 00:02:27] If there's a fourth child come involved you're going to see half the wall behind me, she's gonna take half of everything. Steven:                Every once in a while Justin says some really Texan stuff. [crosstalk 00:02:41] Get another wife though. We don't let that happen in California. Jill:                          You guys. Alright I will read the question now. I will save this. Read the question. Brandon asks, "I have a money partner that I started mailing for to purchase houses and just closed on our first house and he's in the process of fixing it up and we'll be selling it soon. Now that he has seen that this actually works, he asks if we can mail to multi-family apartments to try to pick up one at a discount." Steven:                This is perfect for Justin. Jill:                          I know! "[crosstalk 00:03:20] and I know how to get the data, but my question is, do you send out blind offers for apartments too? If so, how would you price them? Because apartment values based on the net income and c...

Finance Friday with Steven Butala, Jill DeWit & Justin Sliva (LA 903) Transcript: Steve:                   Steve and Jill here with Justin. Jill:                          Hello. Steve:                   Welcome to the Land Academy Show on this Friday, it's a special Friday. I think this is the first time all three of us are doing it. Jill:                          I think so. Justin:                   It is, it is. Steve:                   Here at tending Land Investment Talk, I'm Steven Jack [Butella 00:00:15], with guests, Justin [Slieva 00:00:17], and Jill [DeWitt 00:00:17], broadcasting from sunny Southern California and Dallas-Forth Worth. Today, Justin and I talk about Finance Friday with special guest, Jill, which is a little bit strange. Jill:                          Thank you. Steve:                   I can't even read it, it's so strange. Jill:                          You a little confused right now? I kind of like this. I just get to sit back and coast, Justin:                   And relax. Jill:                          And comment now and then. Yeah, this is awesome. Steve:                   I'm gonna say some revealing stuff about Jill. Jill:                          Oh, great. Justin:                   Okay. Steve:                   Jill loves to be the only girl. Like, wherever we're just with a bunch of guys, she's like, "Yeah, I like being the only girl." Jill:                          Actually, it is nice. I understand the dialog. I understand, yeah I get it. It's good. Steve:                   Before we get into the show today and I find out the deals that Justin's doing and the stuff that Jill's doing, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the Landinvestors.com online community, it's free. Jill:                          Do you want me to add? Steve:                   Sure. Jill:                          Travis asked, "Has anyone successfully used the CoreLogic API to fetch their data from RealQuest Pro instead of the GUI?" Steve:                   User interface. Jill:                          Oh, the new user interface. Got it. "What would be a quick and helpful way to get the number lots in a given area if that's possible? Faster than searching county by county on their website, any ideas? Steve:                   Yeah, so the RealQuest API is literally the backend. CoreLogic API of parcel facts. Actually, yeah. I have a lot of experience using that. This will be solved, what you're trying to accomplish when we release DataTree, access to DataTree. The searching function and the parcel checking function based on geography, even map searching it, is instantaneous. It's leaps and bounds above what we use for RealQuest. However, the real value in RealQuest is it has, I think, a superior search function for land. Actually, Justin, go ahead and comment. I know you have experience with both too. Justin:                   Yeah. DataTree is ton of better on houses. It just leaps and bounds better on houses; but, when you get into RealQuest, they're actually getting their lots down. It's way, way easier to use than RealQuest. For someone who may have less than half the price on what the data is, it's worth it for me to pay more on data in RealQuest, because it's so much easier to manipulate with land. It works out for us a lot better. Steve:                   Same exact experience here. Exactly. So, with House Academy, which is just a couple of months away from release? Jill:                          A couple months. Steve:                   The subscription to DataTree will be included much like RealQuest prop. Jill:                          Because, I personally would like to have a life. So, that's why House Academy's going to be not next week. A month or two. Justin:                   Are you missing date night? Jill:                          What's that? I don't know what that is. Justin:                   We literally have a meeting after we're done r...

Panel: Lucas Reis Charles Max Wood Justin Bennett Special Guest: Soumyajit Pathak In this episode, the panelists talk with Soumyajit Pathak (India) who is a full-stack developer and cybersecurity enthusiast. The panel and the guest talk about design patterns and designing simpler code for clarity and less confusion. Check out today’s episode! Show Topics: 0:00 – Kendo UI 0:31 – Chuck: Our panelists are and our guest is Soumyajit! Introduce yourself please! Are you doing React on the side? 1:02 – Guest: I am a master’s student and I am doing freelancing. 1:42 – Panel. 1:49 – Guest. 2:10 – Chuck: I am feeling very up-to-date. Woo! Universities are teaching this and that and they are focused on theory. The flipside is that they are going to write real code for real systems. 3:10 – Panel: I like your well-written blog posts. You talk about design patterns. 3:50 – Guest: The design patterns at the university had to do with real JavaScript applications. 4:09 – Chuck: I am curious you are talking about the design patterns – how can people from React find/use it? 4:45 – Panel: It depends on your definition of design patterns. 5:35 – Lucas: Maybe you are using one or two here and reading through the design patterns is like going through your toolbox. You only need a screwdriver but you bought the whole toolbox. Get familiar with it and from time to time solve problems and thing: what tool can help me here? It’s clear to me with this toolbox analogy. I understand now – that tool I saw 2 months ago could help me. 7:00 – Guest: I have an interesting story with this about design patterns. Let me share! 7:36 – Justin: It was a similar thing but I wasn’t in JavaScript at the time. I’ve used a lot of C++ code. Design patterns became very useful. I saw it the same way Lucas! 9:23 – Justin continues: How and why to use a certain tool. That’s important. 10:28 – Chuck: Okay this is the default pattern and that’s where we can go for the fallback. Here is the fallback if this doesn’t work here or there. 10:49 – Lucas: This is important to remember. It’s not how to use the tool but it’s why am I using this tool here or there? 11:57 – Justin: It’s so much information in general. People get information overload and they have to just start! One of the challenges we do is that we over-engineer things. Do what you need to know. Look it up but play with it. 12:40 – Lucas: It’s interesting by another blog post that you wrote Soumyajit – and you are using a render prop. You showed a problem and showed the solution. 13:30 – Guest: Yeah I’ve written a lot of blog posts about this topic. 13:48 – Panel: Often times – it’s hard for people just to dive-in. People need to see you solving a problem and it really helps with the learning process. 15:03 – Chuck: What patterns do you find most useful? 15:11 – Panel: Functional components have changed my world! 16:23 – Guest: Around these functional components... 17:17 – Panel: I will go with the patterns that are not useful. Don’t make your code pattern-oriented. This is my favorite pattern now and going back to basics. 18:53 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 19:01 – Lucas. 19:41 – Chuck: You talk about over-engineering things and that’s what I found myself doing sometimes with my new project. When I figure out how to make it simpler I get excited and it’s easy to follow. 20:15 – Panel: We celebrate the person who deleted the most lines of code. 20:28 – Panel: I am going to steal that idea. 21:04 – Guest: I have an interesting story of over-engineering something – let me share! 21:53 – FreshBooks! 22:59 – Panel: Building too much is b/c I don’t have a clear understanding of what I am doing. I get excited about problems. What’s the more simple way / most naïve way possible! 24:36 – Lucas: If you are going to change something you will be changing it in several different places. 25:50 – Chuck: When I heard the concept, all the codes that change together should be together. 26:08 – Lucas comments. 26:53 – Panel: Keeping things contained in one place. We have our presentational component and higher-level component, so you can see it all. 28:28 – Lucas: Different people working on different technologies. 29:15 – Panel: Can I break this down to smaller parts, which makes sense to me? 29:48 – Guest: Looking for keywords will cause a distraction. Finding a balance is good. 30:04 – Chuck: If you have a large rile there could be a smaller component that is there own concern. That feels like the real answer to me. It has a lot less than the length of the file versus... Chuck: If I cannot follow it then I need to keep the concept simple. 30:51 – Lucas: The quantity of lines and the line count – I think it’s better how many indentations you have. 32:43 – Guest. 32:48 – Lucas: Yes, so in the horizontal scrolling you have to keep things in your mind. 33:41 – Panel: There are so many different metrics that you can use and the different line count or different characters. There are more scientific terms that we could plugin here. If you have a lot of these abstract relations that can...write it  34:23 – Chuck: So true. 34:52 – Chuck: I want to move onto a different problem so it’s an attention thing for me too. 35:06 – Panel: We have to get okay with not always writing the best code in that it just needs to do what it needs to do. 35:30 – Chuck. 35:57 – Panel: We write it once – then it falls apart and then we write it again and learn from the process. Learning is the key here – you see where it works and where it doesn’t work well. 36:31 – Panel. 36:47 – Chuck mentions service-side rendering. Chuck: Should we schedule another episode? 37:11 – Panel: I think it’s own episode b/c it’s a complex problem overall. 39:33 – Lucas: Try to find memory leaks in the file components and server-side rendering. Where we have lost a lot of sleep and a higher level of complication. Sometimes it’s necessary. 41:42 – Chuck: Yeah let’s do another episode on this topic. Sounds like there is a lot to dive into this topic. Soumyajit, how do people find you? 42:10 – Guest: Twitter and GitHub! 42:28 – Picks! 42:30 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly Links: Ruby on Rails Angular JavaScript Elm Phoenix GitHub Get A Coder Job React Patterns on GitHub Calibre Book: Engineering a Safer World Designers’ Secret Source Monster Hunter Guest’s GitHub Guest’s Twitter Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Fresh Books Kendo UI Picks: Justin https://reactpatterns.com/ Calibre App Lucas Engineering a Safer World Soumyajit Blog Muzli - Chrome Extension Charles Monster Hunters International Series Metabase Stripe Work for DevChat TV

Panel: Lucas Reis Charles Max Wood Justin Bennett Special Guest: Soumyajit Pathak In this episode, the panelists talk with Soumyajit Pathak (India) who is a full-stack developer and cybersecurity enthusiast. The panel and the guest talk about design patterns and designing simpler code for clarity and less confusion. Check out today’s episode! Show Topics: 0:00 – Kendo UI 0:31 – Chuck: Our panelists are and our guest is Soumyajit! Introduce yourself please! Are you doing React on the side? 1:02 – Guest: I am a master’s student and I am doing freelancing. 1:42 – Panel. 1:49 – Guest. 2:10 – Chuck: I am feeling very up-to-date. Woo! Universities are teaching this and that and they are focused on theory. The flipside is that they are going to write real code for real systems. 3:10 – Panel: I like your well-written blog posts. You talk about design patterns. 3:50 – Guest: The design patterns at the university had to do with real JavaScript applications. 4:09 – Chuck: I am curious you are talking about the design patterns – how can people from React find/use it? 4:45 – Panel: It depends on your definition of design patterns. 5:35 – Lucas: Maybe you are using one or two here and reading through the design patterns is like going through your toolbox. You only need a screwdriver but you bought the whole toolbox. Get familiar with it and from time to time solve problems and thing: what tool can help me here? It’s clear to me with this toolbox analogy. I understand now – that tool I saw 2 months ago could help me. 7:00 – Guest: I have an interesting story with this about design patterns. Let me share! 7:36 – Justin: It was a similar thing but I wasn’t in JavaScript at the time. I’ve used a lot of C++ code. Design patterns became very useful. I saw it the same way Lucas! 9:23 – Justin continues: How and why to use a certain tool. That’s important. 10:28 – Chuck: Okay this is the default pattern and that’s where we can go for the fallback. Here is the fallback if this doesn’t work here or there. 10:49 – Lucas: This is important to remember. It’s not how to use the tool but it’s why am I using this tool here or there? 11:57 – Justin: It’s so much information in general. People get information overload and they have to just start! One of the challenges we do is that we over-engineer things. Do what you need to know. Look it up but play with it. 12:40 – Lucas: It’s interesting by another blog post that you wrote Soumyajit – and you are using a render prop. You showed a problem and showed the solution. 13:30 – Guest: Yeah I’ve written a lot of blog posts about this topic. 13:48 – Panel: Often times – it’s hard for people just to dive-in. People need to see you solving a problem and it really helps with the learning process. 15:03 – Chuck: What patterns do you find most useful? 15:11 – Panel: Functional components have changed my world! 16:23 – Guest: Around these functional components... 17:17 – Panel: I will go with the patterns that are not useful. Don’t make your code pattern-oriented. This is my favorite pattern now and going back to basics. 18:53 – Panelists go back-and-forth. 19:01 – Lucas. 19:41 – Chuck: You talk about over-engineering things and that’s what I found myself doing sometimes with my new project. When I figure out how to make it simpler I get excited and it’s easy to follow. 20:15 – Panel: We celebrate the person who deleted the most lines of code. 20:28 – Panel: I am going to steal that idea. 21:04 – Guest: I have an interesting story of over-engineering something – let me share! 21:53 – FreshBooks! 22:59 – Panel: Building too much is b/c I don’t have a clear understanding of what I am doing. I get excited about problems. What’s the more simple way / most naïve way possible! 24:36 – Lucas: If you are going to change something you will be changing it in several different places. 25:50 – Chuck: When I heard the concept, all the codes that change together should be together. 26:08 – Lucas comments. 26:53 – Panel: Keeping things contained in one place. We have our presentational component and higher-level component, so you can see it all. 28:28 – Lucas: Different people working on different technologies. 29:15 – Panel: Can I break this down to smaller parts, which makes sense to me? 29:48 – Guest: Looking for keywords will cause a distraction. Finding a balance is good. 30:04 – Chuck: If you have a large rile there could be a smaller component that is there own concern. That feels like the real answer to me. It has a lot less than the length of the file versus... Chuck: If I cannot follow it then I need to keep the concept simple. 30:51 – Lucas: The quantity of lines and the line count – I think it’s better how many indentations you have. 32:43 – Guest. 32:48 – Lucas: Yes, so in the horizontal scrolling you have to keep things in your mind. 33:41 – Panel: There are so many different metrics that you can use and the different line count or different characters. There are more scientific terms that we could plugin here. If you have a lot of these abstract relations that can...write it  34:23 – Chuck: So true. 34:52 – Chuck: I want to move onto a different problem so it’s an attention thing for me too. 35:06 – Panel: We have to get okay with not always writing the best code in that it just needs to do what it needs to do. 35:30 – Chuck. 35:57 – Panel: We write it once – then it falls apart and then we write it again and learn from the process. Learning is the key here – you see where it works and where it doesn’t work well. 36:31 – Panel. 36:47 – Chuck mentions service-side rendering. Chuck: Should we schedule another episode? 37:11 – Panel: I think it’s own episode b/c it’s a complex problem overall. 39:33 – Lucas: Try to find memory leaks in the file components and server-side rendering. Where we have lost a lot of sleep and a higher level of complication. Sometimes it’s necessary. 41:42 – Chuck: Yeah let’s do another episode on this topic. Sounds like there is a lot to dive into this topic. Soumyajit, how do people find you? 42:10 – Guest: Twitter and GitHub! 42:28 – Picks! 42:30 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! End – Cache Fly Links: Ruby on Rails Angular JavaScript Elm Phoenix GitHub Get A Coder Job React Patterns on GitHub Calibre Book: Engineering a Safer World Designers’ Secret Source Monster Hunter Guest’s GitHub Guest’s Twitter Sponsors: Get a Coder Job Cache Fly Fresh Books Kendo UI Picks: Justin https://reactpatterns.com/ Calibre App Lucas Engineering a Safer World Soumyajit Blog Muzli - Chrome Extension Charles Monster Hunters International Series Metabase Stripe Work for DevChat TV

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book

Just Cook It!145 Built-To-Be-Easy Recipes That Are Totally DeliciousBy Justin Chapple Suzy Chase: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book Podcast, with me, Suzy Chase.Justin: My name is Justin Chapple, and my new cookbook is called, Just Cook It!Suzy Chase: You graduated from the French Culinary Institute, then you went on to become the Deputy Test Kitchen Editor at Food and Wine Magazine, in addition to being the host of Mad Genius Tips, your James Beard nominated video series. What does a Deputy Test Kitchen Editor do? That sounds so official.Justin: Believe it or not, it's actually a little more official because I was recently promoted to Culinary Director of Food and Wine.Suzy Chase: Oh, well look at that.Justin: Basically what it means is, I get to cook, and I get to eat all the time, but most importantly I get to develop recipes and food content for everyday people, which is really what I love about my job.Suzy Chase: Basically, the home cook, me?Justin: Yeah, exactly. Basically what I do is ... I've been at Food and Wine for over eight years, and in that time I've had various roles, but the thing that I like to say is my favorite part of my job is I basically translate difficult recipes for the home cook. I've spent so many years testing recipes from famous chefs, or even chefs that really nobody knows about yet, but who would like to run recipes in Food and Wine Magazine. Basically it's been my job for so long to look at the recipes and streamline them, maybe reduce the number of ingredients, simplify the technique so that it's something that is really approachable. Then, I basically redo the recipe, still keeping in mind the chef's vision, and just make it so much easier for the home cook.Justin: When I started writing this book, I thought to myself well, how can I do something that not only has my point of view, rather than so many of the great chefs that I work with, but that teaches people all of the things that I've learned along the way? That's what I've done in, Just Cook It.Suzy Chase: It struck me by how many different types of cuisines are in this cookbook, but it's not discombobulated. It all works together. Is this how you cook at home?Justin: Yeah, it really is how I cook at home. A lot of that is just because over the years I was cooking food from so many different people, I've learned so much about different cuisines. When I started writing down and figuring out what I wanted to put in the book, I thought, okay, well what type of cuisine should it be? Should it be American? Should it be Italian? Should it be French, which is what I'm trained in? But then I thought to myself, I should actually really put all the different types of recipes and cuisines that I cook at home, because I cook very globally. That said, none of the recipes are truly authentic. They're really inspired by a region, or a type of cuisine, or a recipe that I've had at some point. Then I've reinvented it with my own perspective. I think it worked out well.Suzy Chase: I do too. I live for nostalgia, just like you. I'm dying to hear about Grandma Barbara.Justin: Oh, Grandma Barbara, she was my savior, really. She's really the first person who introduced me to home cooking. Part of how she did that was she plopped me down on sofa next to her. She'd say, we're going to watch these shows. We'd watch Yan Can Cook, and we'd watch The Two Fat Ladies, Jacques Pepin, Julia Child. This was before food television was really what it is today. This is back when most of the time when you watched cooking shows, it was on PBS. I love it. I fell in love with it. I remember as a kid I used to say, I want to be a chef. Or at that time, I probably said cook. She encouraged me. She would teach me, started out simple, she would show me how to make tuna salad. One of the most advanced things that she taught me as a kid was how to poach eggs. Of course, I think my poached eggs have come very long way now, compared to the watery mess they were when I was a kid.Justin: She just taught me so much. What I think is so amazing when I look back is, how much she taught me that she doesn't realize, because we didn't grow up with a lot of money, and we didn't have a lot of resources. We didn't have a lot of fancy kitchen equipment. Still, every day she made incredible meals that were so inspiring. Throughout the book, I've taken some of the things that I learned from her and I've made them a little more modern, maybe changed a few ingredients here and there, but really tried to achieve what I remember having as a kid.Justin: A couple of examples are that are my bacon and egg ramen, because growing up she used to take little packaged ramen noodles and she'd put them in the microwave with an egg, some scallions, and maybe a little chicken broth. It ended up becoming something that was totally different than what you think of when you think of packaged ramen. I tried to recreate that in my book. I think I did pretty well. I think she'd be happy with it.Suzy Chase: In the cookbook you wrote, don't tell anyone, but I might have been a little bit dorky as a kid. Not that I've changed much. I was freckly and quirky with all sorts of big bizarre dreams. I would read cookbooks and food magazines, watch Two Fat Ladies, and Yan Can Cook, and fantasize about becoming a chef. What advice would adult chef Justin, tell young, quirky Justin?Justin: Actually, that's a really good question. I'm glad you asked, because I recently was able to speak to this high school culinary program. They had asked me to come. It was actually my high school which since I left they drew out this incredible culinary program for high school students. They asked me to come back and speak to the kids, and I did. One of the things I told them was, don't let anyone tell you that going to trade school or vocational school is a bad thing. Because when I was growing up, you were strongly encouraged to go off to a four year university. I went off to school, yet all I really wanted to do was cook. In our industry we call ourselves career changers, because I had established myself as an adult before I decided to go to culinary school. Then one day I said, you know what? I've always wanted to cook. I still want to cook. I'm going to cook. So I went to culinary school. That was almost 10 years ago.Suzy Chase: I've talked to quite a few cookbook authors who were unfulfilled by working in a professional kitchen because the personal link to the customer was missing. Talk about your connection between the food and the people you make food for.Justin: Well, that's exactly right. When I worked in restaurants, you cook all day. But I was in fine dining, and so you're really kept in the back. You're kept in the kitchen. You don't really get to see reactions. You don't get to see if people are enjoying it. You don't get to hear the feedback of whether or not they want something different. But since I've been at Food and Wine, and I've been creating recipes for the masses, for lack of a better way of describing it, especially nowadays with social media, I get so much feedback. I hear what people want. I hear the types of foods people want to eat, and the types of food people would like to prepare at home. I change what I do based on that. It's what I love about what I do now, is that I get to interact with the people who are actually cooking my food, or the people that I'm cooking for.Justin: When I developed the list of recipes that I was going to put in the book, I really considered all the things I've heard over the years, all the favorite dishes that people like to make at home, all of the types of foods that they'd like to learn more about, which is why, if you go through the pages of Just Cook It, you'll see a lot of vegetable recipes. Because more recently, people are just obsessed with vegetables. They're obsessed with side dishes. That's one of the things I really focused on when I wrote this book, was providing all the different types of vegetables. Some of them are more involved than others, but for the most part they're all super, super easy, really approachable, and they teach you to use ingredients in fun new ways.Suzy Chase: You have a must-have equipment section in the cookbook. One of your must-haves is a cast iron pan. As a New York City apartment dweller, I wish I could grill. How do you grill indoors?Justin: It's really hard, because I also live in New York City, and I have a small apartment, so it's really hard to grill indoors, but I like to use a grill pan. Rather than getting it as hot as possible, if you just reduce the temperature just a little bit, you are better off with the fear of setting off your smoke alarm.Suzy Chase: I've heard you say hacks are one thing, and shortcuts are another. What's the difference?Justin: I get asked that question a lot, because I do have the video series through Food and Wine, which is called, Mad Genius Tips. It's all about food hacks. It's all about finding really bizarre ways of creating a shortcut. Technically a hack is a shortcut, but nowadays the term hack has really become a term for shortcut when the shortcut is really outrageous. Whereas a shortcut is just a smart, often times professional way of making something easier. Throughout my book you will find a few hacks here and there, but for the most part I wanted to include just a ton of shortcuts so that people wouldn't be intimidated, so people weren't afraid to get in the kitchen, so that you can make all the things that you perhaps thought you could never make.Justin: Just for an example, I have my new school beef bourguignon, which is really inspired by a classic beef bourguignon, which if you're not aware of what it is, it's a beef stew made with red wine, probably made famous by Julia Child. In order to make it at home you'd normally dry all your meat and then you cook it in three or four batches in your big pot. Then you have to brown all your vegetables separately. Then you have to braise your meat separately. At the end you put it all together.Justin: But really, I've streamlined the process by first, rather than cooking the meat in so many different batches, I dry it all and I spread it on a baking sheet. Then I broil it so you brown it all at once. Then I put that into the pan, into the pot with the red wine, and your aromatics, and then you braise the meat that way. Then of course rather than browning all your vegetables in different skillets, I add them all in. It's definitely a shortcut, and the recipe is definitely still delicious. I really think it's reinventing how a very classic French dish can be made at home.Suzy Chase: Another shortcut that caught my eye in, Just Cook It, is preserved lemons that can be made in 10 minutes on the stove. Describe that.Justin: I haven't yet been asked about that recipe, so I'm so glad that you did because it's really a brilliant cheater version of preserved lemons. Preserved lemons are lemons that have been salted and basically cured for upwards of a month. They have an incredible, incredible, deep very floral flavor. You don't actually use the flesh of the fruit. Some people do. They like to spread it on toast, or they like to stir it into stews. But for the most part when we talk about using preserved lemon, we talk about just using the rind, because the rind gets really soft once it's been cured. It mellows out and you can actually just eat it, but it's still intense. But, it's used as a condiment, so you can put it into vinaigrette. You can put it into aioli’s. You can put it into a stew, or into a chicken braise, or something like that.Justin: You can buy them in the store. That's definitely something that you can find pretty much at most stores nowadays, but I developed this trick for doing it at home. It's a shortcut that I think is really phenomenal. When you want to use preserved lemons in a pinch, and really what you do is you scrub the lemons and cut them into wedges. Then you cook them in a saucepan with just water, and salt. What it does is it softens the rind, much like the month long curing process would, and with the amount of salt that I use ... Which I think I use three or four tablespoons in the recipe. It gives it that kind of flavor that you would get from the salt curing process.Justin: In my opinion, it's such a smart shortcut for something that could take upwards of a month. Now you can do it at home in really 10 minutes. The best part is once you make them, because they're technically salted still, they can be in the refrigerator for six months. You can do a double or triple batch. Cook them in 10 minutes. Put them into a jar or container, like a plastic container with a lid, put it in the back of the refrigerator, and they'll be there for six months. Every time you need a little, you just take it out, you chop it up, and it's ready to go.Suzy Chase: One thing I hate to do is cut up cucumber. I can never make perfectly diced cukes. Thank you for telling us to smash our cucumber. Talk about that.Justin: That is probably one of my favorite techniques in the whole entire book. Throughout the book you'll find little things like that, like little ideas that don't require more effort. They often times require less effort, but huge reward. That's what smashing the cucumbers is for me. Because what I do is I basically put the cucumbers onto a cutting board. I like to use Persian cucumbers, because I love their really, really, really crisp texture, and the fact that they have very little seeds. You can find them pretty much everywhere now. They're the perfect snackable cucumber.Justin: I basically put it flat on a work surface. I put my knife flat on top of that, with the blade facing away from me. Then I just use my palm, and I just smash them. Then I tear them into pieces. What's so great about that is because the crushed cucumber has all these nooks and crannies now, it absorbed the dressing so much better than if you just sliced them or chopped them, and it makes it more fun to eat.Suzy Chase: That is so smart. That's totally a game changer.Justin: It's 100% a game changer. The salad that goes with it, in my book, Just Cook It, is so simple. It's an Asian inspired salad with just a couple ingredients, and then some herbs which are optional. I just think it's the perfect recipe for now.Suzy Chase: The other evening I made your recipe for shumai stew on page 100, and your peel and eat shrimp on page 191. Now, that stew-Justin: Thank you.Suzy Chase: The stew was so different and delicious. How did that recipe come about?Justin: That recipe came about because I'm a little bit of an addict when it comes to buying frozen dumplings, and frozen raviolis, and stuff like that from the store, because living in New York City, I work until 06:00, and often times the only time I have people over, it'll be on a weeknight. I tend to like shortcuts like prepared raviolis and prepared pot stickers, in this case, shumai. I had bought some shumai from a corner store. Here in New York we call them bodegas. Because I was just craving some little dumplings. I think I remember the ones that I bought, they weren't that great. I ate them, but I had some leftover in the fridge, and I said to myself, how can I use theses up? So I made a stew out of them. It was such a weird, happy accident, because what I really did was just sauteed a little aromatics, like ginger and shallots and garlic, threw in some chicken broth, added the shumai, added some greens, and it became this really hardy Asian inspired dumpling stew that now I make it all the time.Suzy Chase: Oh my God. I've never seen anything like it.Justin: This too, in my opinion, is a game changer because it really shows you a new way of using something. You go to the supermarket. They always have that section of frozen pot stickers, and frozen dumplings. They even have often times the frozen udon noodles in the same area. Those ingredients, believe it or not, you don't have to use them in the traditional way. You can reinvent the way you cook at home very easily. That's what I really wanted to show in this book, was how with just a couple smart ideas, you can change the way you cook forever. That's why I like to say this shumai stew is a game changer as well, because it teaches you something simple like putting those frozen dumplings into a soup.Justin: It's something that you'll walk away from the book with and you'll do it. You might not follow the recipe next time. You might do something else. You might say, well okay, I don't have mustard greens, or I don't have shiitake mushrooms on hand, so what can I do? Maybe you take those shumai dumplings and you do an Italian inspired soup with tomato, and basil, and with your dumplings in there. Because you're using them as a condiment. You're using them as an ingredient as opposed to making them the focal point.Suzy Chase: Here's my problem with the Trader Joe's frozen shumai, is that when I steam them, they get crunchy around the edges. I've decided to never buy those again, but I used them for the shumai stew, and in the stew the shumai stays moist. It doesn't get that weird crunch on the edges.Justin: Right. That's true for a lot of frozen ingredients. Because they get a little frostbitten, and then they start to dry out. That's a really good point. Because they're in the stew, they're going to absorb all that delicious broth and just get really nice and tender and juicy.Suzy Chase: With the peel and eat shrimp, I never knew that if you cooked them in the shell, they stayed juicy and tender. The green chili butter on the shrimp was so luxurious.Justin: That green chili butter, which I sometimes I use jalapeno, other times I use the serranos. It's such a smart secret weapon. It really is, because what I do is sometimes when I make that recipe ... So, for those of you listening, basically my peel and eat shrimp has two really, really smart tips to it. The first one is to cook your shrimps in the shell, because they stay really moist and tender, and you don't overcook them. What I like to do is take little scissors and then I just cut down the back, which not only allows you to remove the vein, but it exposes the meat so that you can spread it with this chili butter. That's the first tip.Justin: The second tip in this recipe, which is a secret weapon in my opinion, is making this green chili butter. You just mash butter with chilies. Like I said, I use jalapeno, or I use serrano, some chives, some lemon zest, and then just salt and pepper. That's it. You blend it in a bowl with a fork, and then you spread it on the meat under the shell of the shrimp. Then you chill the shrimp, and then when you roast them in the oven, they get perfectly cooked and the chili butter is just the little kick that you want, because it doesn't overwhelm the shrimp. But, it makes them even more juicy and more tender.Justin: But the reason I say that green chili butter is a secret weapon is because sometimes I make a double or quadruple batch. And then I use some for the shrimp, and then save the other for anything I want. Sometimes I toss it just on boiled noodles. Sometimes I just put a little pat of it on top of the grilled steak. Sometimes I spread it on top of a grilled, or roasted piece of skinless chicken breast. It just adds this little bit of oomph that you're looking for something that's really simple at home.Suzy Chase: I used jalapenos and I was a little worried because I was feeding my 11 year old. I'm like, just eat the shrimp. I was standing back watching him. But it doesn't absorb the heat. It just had the flavor of the jalapeno.Justin: Right. That's because to make the butter, you first seed the chilies. You seed them and then you mince them, and so because you're removing the seeds and the ribs, that's where all the heat is in the chili. You're really just using the pepper itself. The pepper, sometimes they can be hot, but I have a really smart trick for knowing whether or not a chili is going to be really spicy. We've all been there where a recipe calls for one or two peppers, and you can choose. You never know how much to use because you're not sure how hot they are unless you taste one.Justin: But, I actually learned this trick from my friend Melissa Clark who works for the New York Times. She said, what you do is you cut the jalapeno or the chili in half, and then you smell it. If it smells like a bell pepper, then it's sweeter. But if it smells really spicy then you know it's going to be a really hot chili, and you should maybe start with less before you add more. She taught me that, and I was like, why have I not ever known that? It's such a brilliant trick.Suzy Chase: Right. Well, thank you Melissa Clark.Justin: Yes. So smart. Now I do this. I wish I had known that right before I did the book, because I would have put it on every recipe that has a hot pepper in it.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Justin: Well, you can find me all over social media and on the web at, Justin Chapple, just my full name. My last name is spelled C-H-A-P-P-L-E. I really do hope that people reach out, because I'm really responsive on social media and on the internet, just because I love talking with the people that are making my recipes and eating my food. It's one of my biggest pleasures in life.Suzy Chase: Well, I will echo what Valerie Bertinelli said, this is for all of us home cooks who want to up our game in the kitchen. Thanks Justin, for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Justin: Thank you so much.Suzy Chase: Subscribe in Apple Podcasts and while you're there, please take a moment to rate and review, Cookery by the Book. You can also follow me on Instagram, @Cookerybythebook. Twitter is IamSuzyChase, and download your Kitchen Mix Tapes. music to cook by on Spotify at Cookery by the Book. Thanks for listening.

Download This Awesome Podcast: http://bit.ly/2Wx7NYn In celebration of surpassing our 100th EPISODE, we are welcoming back all of the mentors, coaches and friends who have been instrumental in our Real Estate Journey. Today we have the honor of having Justin Williams back on our show. Joining him is his amazing wife, partner and Super Woman, Tara Williams. Justin and Tara are the creators of House Flipping HQs, six-figure flipping, seven-figure flipping, and now eight-figure flipping, which Justin actually first teased on our show many moons ago on episode 9. And Tara is also a very highly sought after personal coach. GETTING STARTED: Tara: "Well, we got married and I was a third grade teacher. And I was like, “Okay, I'd graduate in college. It was going to be my career. I'll probably have some kids and then I'll probably work at some point.” And my 25k cap was like, it was cap, it was a great job and I enjoyed it. And then Justin comes into my world. And it was like we can be good in anything. “You're at service Tara.” “Well, service is good. That's a good theme.” And he's got these big ideas and he wants to start businesses, that we're going to make million dollars in the first summer and I was just like, “Okay, sounds awesome.” Justin: I was in college at the time. I never started business. My parents weren't entrepreneur or anything, so it wasn't like I really knew what I was doing. Other people have done it. Think about that. Tara: Yeah. And so, I was like, “Okay.” He's always running numbers. He's always like, “Okay, maybe these are the dish sales, these are my people and these are my offices. “That's a million dollars Tara!” I'm like, “You're right. That totally is a million dollars.” And so, we started that business. Justin: It was just a satellite dish, by the way. Tara: And it went pretty low when you're in a rut, a school of hard knocks. We made a lot of mistakes, we did a lot of good things. And then, but the goal of that, we had learned or thought we knew, that a lot of wealth is created through real estate. And so, after what? A couple of years in that business? Justin: Yeah, after having lost a lot of money and getting a lot of debt, we worked our way out of that. We got into real estate." Justin and Tara's real estate journey started when they found the masterminds and mentors and partners to help them to achieve their goals!!! HAVE YOU ALWAYS BEEN THAT COUPLE WHO HAS THE SAME MINDSET?: Justin: "Have we always been that couple?" Tara: "No. He's always been that single. My response always at the beginning was, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ahaha. Ohhhh. Haahhh. Freak out, this is scary. This is crazy.” “Don't say that. Don't talk that.” “Uhuh, we can't be that!” When we got married, he would come to our family parties and he would actually say what he was thinking, and I go, “Oh my gosh! You don't just say what you are thinking. You don't just do what you're thinking.” Justin: She's been super supportive even with all the ups and downs and my crazy shenanigans… Tara: He has a lot of ideas and he just goes for things and it's amazing. His belief is like... He always talks me into things and he'll be like, “Hey! Here's what we do hon.” And my first response is usually like, “No. No.” And then he'll talk about it for a while and I'm like, “Yeah. Oh that sounds amazing. We've got to do it.” And so, I've learned over the time, over the years, to kind of more be on the same page, more meet in the middle. I'm still usually the one who's like, “Okay, that's a bit too much. Let's tone this in here.” He's still the idea person. I'm more of the implementation to finish things through. I like to be more organized and structured and he's like fly by the seat on one's pants, talk to everybody. I go to a grocery store with a list and I'm going through the aisles looking through things. He usually goes to the grocery store and he's like, “Hey! Where's the pickles? Somebody tell me.” We navigate differently but our different personalities work well." Justin: The number one tip that I would give to couples, or even partners, or employees… we've worked up a lot of people. I have yet to find a person who is as awesome as me. I'm joking but I'm kind of serious, because obviously we act a certain way. We do things that we think are the best way to do things. Obviously we all think that we're the most awesome. You can't go around saying that because that's not cool but what I found is, it's so easy to focus on faults of other people. We focus especially in a spouse or a partner – their qualities – those are the things you think about, and let them know. A lot of times in a marriage or any relationship, people focus on the negative things. It's like when you're dating this guy you focus on the positive, and over time you focus on just the negative and those are the things that they hear, but if you really sit down and take time to think about all the amazing things that person does and you tell them, they'll feel better, you'll feel better, and you'll recognize how amazing they are, because they really are, people who are amazing. You focus on those things, which just improves the entire relationship, which then improves the business." HOW DO YOU MAKE FAMILY AND BUSINESS WORK: Tara: How do we make it all work? Well, first of all, Google Calendar is my best friend besides Justin. You have to – your life will get maxed. You're going to be maxed on the home front, you're going to be maxed on the business front. We're very involved in our church so we're going to be maxed on our church spiritual front or whatever hobbies that you got. Anyone has hobbies, and want to go on dates and – Justin: We go on a date every other week… Tara: So an amazing thing happens is when you put yourself in situations where there's more on your plate than you can handle so you get maxed. And you can either respond to it and fall apart and shrink from it or you can take the opportunity to filter your life. You have to go through it and go, “This isn't important. This isn't important. That's got to go. That's got to go,” on a daily basis. You can't to do that, not going to get to that. I'm okay with that, I'm okay with that. This is what has to happen every day. These are the things that matter to me, these are the things that have to be worked on. So, it really is an amazing opportunity to let go of some of the things that aren't really making you who you want to be. You have to learn to be more efficient with your time. You've got to learn to manage your energy more – where you have energy left to do the work and also be with your family. You got to learn to let go of a lot of emotion; it's not working for you. If you're way down and you're stressed and you're falling apart, you're not going to have anything for your family or anything for your marriage. You have to learn to work through your emotions. It's an incredible opportunity to go, here you are maxed, what are you going to get rid of? What are you going to let go of? If you don't, you're going to stay stuck where you're at or you're going to crash burn... It's this process of just continually letting go of something good for something better, so that you can keep progressing. It takes lots of little random things, simple time management, lots of conversation and lots of evolving. WORDS TO LIVE BY: “It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man or woman who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasm, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” HOW TO FIND JUSTIN AND TARA: www.HouseFlippingHQ.com So grateful to you for listening! Thank you! If you enjoyed what you've listened to please leave us a five-star review on iTunes and Like and Follow us on YouTube and FaceBook!!! Your support is AWESOME! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This week we are staying in Clare, Michigan to discuss how people living in rural communities access food. Food insecurity is 5% higher in rural communities across the country and rural Michigan is no exception. We speak to experts who are trying to make a difference and alleviate this disparity. Kara Lynch is a Registered Dietitian who teachings vulnerable and low-income families about healthy eating and food safety through Michigan State University Extension. Justin Rumenapp provides an overview of the hard work that the Greater Lansing Food Bank puts forth to feed thousands of food insecure and hungry people across the state. Finally, we get a unique look at how the Amish in Clare County feed and cook for their families and impact that has on health and wellbeing.      - [Julia] This Rural Mission is brought to you by Michigan State University, College of Human Medicine, Leadership in Rural Medicine programs. The podcast is funded in part by a generous grant provided by the Herbert H. and Grace A. Dow Foundation. To learn more about the Leadership in Rural Medicine programs, please visit www.msururalhealth.chm.msu.edu. I'm your host, Julia Terhune, and stay tuned for more from this Rural Mission.  (spirited violin music)  (overlapping group chatter) -[Julia] The sounds you are hearing are coming from a mobile food pantry hosted in Harrison, Michigan. These food distributions are organized almost every month in Clare County by the Community Nutrition Network, a group coordinated by Veronica Romanov and community volunteers. - [Veronica] Good morning, everybody. - [Man] Good afternoon. - [Veronica] I hear we have watermelons coming today, so everybody's gonna get some watermelon. - [Julia] Veronica and her team spend weeks making sure that the distribution is supplied with as much fresh produce as they can get, low-fat dairy options, lean protein, and lots of healthy non-perishables like whole wheat pasta, bread, and low sodium canned food. The task of making sure that people living in Clare County, one of the most underserved counties in the state, is a community effort. It takes weeks of Veronica and her team's planning to get the mobile food pantry up and running and then it takes the labor of 10s of volunteers to just get the food to the people. Even Dr. Bremer, who we have highlighted before on this podcast, comes out to help load up baskets of bread. It really is a community effort and it has to be to make these distributions a reality. - [Justin] It's really a community coming together to solve a problem that does affect the whole community. We are so happy for people that want to volunteer, that want to get involved, that want to help out, that if people come up and say, "We wanna work," we're gonna put 'em to work because we're happy to do that. - [Julia] That was Justin Rumenapp, the communications manager for the Greater Lansing Food Bank the food bank that provides food to the mobile food pantries in seven counties, four of which are designated as rural counties by the state of Michigan. We will hear more from Justin in a bit, but I want to make something very clear about the coordination and implementation of these mobile food pantries, they are hard work. Food needs to be shipped from the greater Lansing area, distributed at a local site, distributed in a food-safe manner and sent home with hundreds, yes I said hundreds of people. - [Woman] Does everyone have a number? - [Woman] Yes. - [Woman] Number, number, number? - [Woman] I got mine. - [Woman] All right, perfect. Number, number? - [Julia] Getting food from mobile food pantries and food pantries alike is a reality for so many people living in a state of food insecurity. - [Justin] Even if you've never been food insecure, which means that you've either had to eat less food or lower quality food as a result of financial issues, people understand hunger as a state of mind. Other community issues, while equally important, sometimes are harder to grasp your mind around. And when we say we feed people, we mean exactly that, we ship food. If you volunteer here and you move a hundred pounds of produce, that translates directly into a number of meals that you help serve the community. - [Julia] Food insecurity is something that perils so many people living in poverty. The ALICE population, which stands for Asset Limited Income Constrained Employed, or what used to be called the working poor, and it even plagues certain demographics at higher rates than others, specifically older adults and children. In rural communities, especially across the country, we see food insecure households in greater number than in any other geography. While there are many reasons for this discrepancy, there was one reason that resounded with all my interviewees. - [Justin] Transportation, transportation, transportation. Getting the food out there, getting families to the distribution site, trying to make it centrally located. With a sparse population, it becomes much more difficult to try to get food out there in a cost effective manner. - [Kara] I think Missaukee County is a great example. There's no big box supermarket or anything there, so there's a couple of grocery stores and communities, but people might still have to drive 20 or 30 minutes there and then they're paying more for fruits and vegetables and food in general. - [Julia] Kara Lynch is a registered dietician and an educator with Michigan State University Extension. Kara oversees nutrition education and food safety in Isabella, Clare, Gladwin, Mecosta, Osceola, Wexford, and Missaukee counties, all of which are rural, and she had this to say about nutrition and food insecurity in rural communities. - [Kara] There are more and more food distributions and food pantries popping up in communities. A lot of 'em are faith-based, so the food banks that provide food to these distributions and food pantries are trying to get more healthy foods, more produce, more fresh foods, but there's also some education that has to take place with the pantries themselves. The people that are ordering the foods because maybe they can order in bulk some Little Debbies or some candy or cookies or things like that, and maybe it's even free through the food bank, so they bulk up their order with that kind of stuff and then they don't get some of the nutritious food that they could. Part of what we're doing as well is our effort is trying to teach them how to plan their meals so that they can make lists and maybe get a week or two weeks of groceries at a time, so when they do travel 30, 40 plus minutes to the grocery store, they can get the food that they need.  (gentle instrumental music) The government is actually taking some steps to try to get more food to these areas where they might be considered like a food desert, where they don't have the fruits and vegetables accessible to them. In the past, in order to accept or to be a SNAP retailer, meaning that in order to accept what we used to call food stamps, they had to essentially only offer like 12 items. But now it's moving to where the retailers have to have at least like 84 items. I mean there's a little bit more, there's more to it than just that, so it's making it so that basically stores that accept benefits have to also provide a variety, like fruits, and a variety of vegetables, and a variety of grains. Hopefully that will b helpful and not hurtful. - [Julia] Equitable food policies do make a difference in where and what people can buy on food subsidies, but understanding how to cook can really help bridge financial and social gaps. It can also help to empower persons of all backgrounds to choose healthy options. - [Kara] And just recently with this new organization that's trying to happen within our community, anyways there was a food pantry involved with it and they received from the food bank and a food distribution a bunch of, I think it was eggplant that they said and people didn't know what it was. And then they're like, okay, if I take this, what am I going to do with it? And there's some really, really good recipes that are easy and healthy to make eggplant with, but people don't know. It's helpful to have things that people can taste as well, so that they can say wow, this is really good. So that's nice when we're able to do that. Like yesterday I was actually at an event and we had some celery with hummus. This one child came along and he didn't wanna try it at first. And finally we did encourage him enough that he did try it and he came back, he was so excited. He said, "I really like it." So if he hadn't tried that he would never probably, 'cause his parents were there and said, "Go ahead, try it," and they were encouraging him to do it, they said, "We don't like it, but you might." And sometimes we hear feedback from parents, not sometimes, but quite often, our instructors will get stopped in the grocery store by a parent, or maybe they'll be in the school and see the parent and they'll say, wow, I had to start buying cilantro, or jicama, or something like that that my child tried in the classroom. I never really tasted it before, so I didn't really know how to prepare it and they came home with a recipe and said that they liked it and they're really wanting to eat more fruits and vegetables and so we get responses like that from the people, so that's encouraging to know that it does happen.  (lively music) - [Julia] With the efforts that MSU Extension makes to educate people in almost county of Michigan, organizations like the Greater Lansing Food Bank help to make that job easier by providing healthy options that not only feed, but nourish the people who receive these items. - [Justin] This is the main side of our warehouse where we store a lot of the stuff. You can see there's stacks and stacks and stacks. These are all donated to us. Other things are donated to us directly from the stores because they get too much that they're not gonna be able to sell everything, so instead of letting that go to waste, give it to us, we get it out to folks, and occasionally we do have to buy some product with monetary donations that people give us. We get a great cost, it's below even wholesale 'cause we don't pay for any brand names, and so if there's something we don't have a lot in, like cereal, again, is a big one, we'll buy a pallet of that to make sure that cupboards are full across Michigan. - [Julia] Because that's a big one that people buy? - [Justin] Cereal's a big one. And another thing that people have told us that is really important is fresh produce. So over the last year, we've really tried to make an effort to work with some of our retail partners, some of our agriculture partners, to make sure we have fresh produce in stock to be able to get out to folks.  (lively guitar music) - [Julia] Katie Lindauer, whom you've also heard on our podcasts before, was part of the Rural Community Health Program and spent two years of her clinical medical education in Clare County. She has seen firsthand what people in underserved rural communities have to do to feed their families, but she also had personal experience with the Amish population in Clare County. Through those experiences, she saw how an understanding of food, cooking, food preservation, and nutrition, had an overall positive effect on this population's health. Just a little background, students who complete the Rural Community Health Program in Clare, have a unique opportunity to go into the homes of the Amish and provide immunizations and other public health outreach. - [Katie] So Clare's really interesting. So actually my answer now is different after having hung out with some Amish folks last week. Than it would have been before last Friday, before doing the Amish immunization rounds with the public health folks. I know that a lot of my patients  who have kids get their food from WIC in Clare. I've seen that in the family practice clinic, and so actually that's something I learned this week. We were talking to a couple moms about food and what they're feeding their kids, and they're like, well, I just feed 'em whatever WIC gives me. So Women, Infants, and Children, right, it's a food supplementation program. So I didn't know very much about Amish people at all. It's interesting 'cause I expected like really simple lives and really simple people, but like people are people, and when you have a bunch of kids, so you have 10 people living in a house, like there is really nothing simple about that (laughs) like you may not have a telephone in your house or you may not have electricity, but there's nothing simple about raising eight kids  (laughs) especially when you're cooking for eight kids with no electricity. So it was canning week when I was there, like three or four of the houses we had visited had harvested tomatoes. So like one woman had actually 20 pint jars of tomato sauce on her counter. And she did all that without a blender. She chopped all this by hand. There's no food processor. But also Amish people do go to the grocery store and buy groceries, which I didn't realize. I thought it was all like the fruits of the earth, but no, we saw it. The kids eat cereal for breakfast. And I don't know where they get their milk from, but like one family their child had a lot of food allergies, so like their family only drank almond milk. And the kids, we, the nurses give out cookies after they vaccinate the kids, so they like are known more for the cookies than the vaccinations actually, as they go around. And they're store-bought cookies and the kids can have those too, so it's not, I mean there's like definitely a preference for the simple, but it's not only what they've grown on their farms that their family is consuming, so that's cool. But they're definitely healthier. Like the Amish kids compared to the non-Amish kids, like already in seven year olds I can see a difference. Like they chart different on a growth curve. They listen better. Like all the non-Amish kids I've seen so far, have been on some sort of ADHD medication. And all of the Amish kids sit and focus and have no problems focusing, and it's not a question, they just do it. And so I don't know how much of that is nutritional, like the Amish kids aren't having as many processed foods and sugars and things that we're starting to think now may lead to those sorts of attention issues, and how much of that is that like Amish family community value really preference well-behaved kids, whereas some of the non-Amish families, their lives are so busy and complicated because of their jobs and whatever social issues they have going on that sometimes they maybe spend, I don't want to say spend less time with their kids, but have different  priorities with their kids, or their lives have forced them to sort of spend their time with their kids differently than maybe an Amish family would. So that's been really interesting to see too. - [Julia] Nutrition and food insecurity is a complex animal. Coming from a dietetics and nutrition education background myself, I know that trying to change habits and outlooks on the food we eat can be a deeply emotional and personal experience. But I also know this: food is not optional an hunger does not discriminate.  (somber music) Yet there's a real disparity in rural America. 15.4% of rural households are food insecure compared to 12.2% of all metropolitan homes. Rural communities see 5.1% more people receiving WIC benefits and 3.9% more people on supplemental nutrition assistance than in urban areas. Looking to Michigan, we see that 50% of all children, both urban and rural, are receiving free and reduced lunch. But what that 50% looks like in rural Michigan is a little different. When we say 50% are receiving free and reduced lunch, that means in Beaverton School District, 603 students out of 1,101. And in Clare School District, 664 out of 1,542 students are receiving free and reduced lunch every school day. And yes, I said district, which means there are whole classrooms in Clare and Beaverton where a majority of the students are living in a level of varied poverty. And while I don't have time to get into that now, we're talking about free and reduced lunch during the school year, we haven't even spoken about what that looks like for those children during the summer and on holidays. We don't have an answer to this issue, but we do have efforts. Organizations like the Clare County Community Nutrition Network, the Greater Lansing Food Bank, and MSU Extension, are doing what they can to reach people where they are. While there will always be more room for access and education, we can continue to support these programs and organizations, providing avenues for exposure in nutrition education in medical school can also make future medical leaders into advocates and volunteers for nutrition security. If the theory of equity is to take care of the least, so even the greatest is provided for, then if we can make sure that the most remote and isolated person in rural Michigan has adequate food, then everyone will have food.  (vibrant instrumental music)   Thank you for listening to this Rural Mission. This podcast is produced by me, Julia Terhune. Thank you Justin Rumenapp, from the Greater Lansing Food Bank, for agreeing to be interviewed and for touring me around your amazing establishment. The work that the Greater Lansing Food Bank does in our state is outstanding and makes a difference in so many lives. Thank you also to Veronica Romanov for letting me be part of the Clare County Mobile Food Pantry. And Kara Lynch and Katie Lindauer for agreeing to be interviewed for this podcast. As always, a huge thank-you goes out to Dr. Andrea Wendling for making this podcast a part of the Leadership in Rural Medicine programs. I want to encourage you to make rural your mission and until next time, I'm Julia. ♫ Well, I guess I've got to see that silver lining ♫ I don't mind a little rain ♫ Truth be told, I can't complain ♫ 'Cause life is full of give and take ♫ And there ain't no rainbows without rain ♫ I heard the wind start picking up ♫ Just when I thought I'd had enough ♫ But it was rough and it was coarse ♫ And took the trees with all its force ♫ It blew a left, then blew a right ♫ It rushed the land with all its might ♫ But when the wind had finally ceased ♫ Well we'll cleaned up all the leaves ♫ So I guess I've got to see that silver lining ♫ I don't mind a little rain ♫ Truth be told, I can't complain ♫ 'Cause life is full of give and take ♫ And there ain't no rainbows without rain ♫ I don't mind a little rain ♫ Truth be told, I can't complain ♫ 'Cause life is full of give and take ♫ And there ain't no rainbows without rain - [Julia] To learn more about the Rural Community Health Program, please visit our website at www.msururalhealth.chm.msu.edu. By joining our website, you can connect to us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can also find out more about our musician. Music today was provided by Horton Creek and Bryan Eggers, a local musician and Michigan native. We hope you tune in next time to hear more from this Rural Mission.

Justin Gray, CEO and founder at LeadMD, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner relationships and breakups, trusting data, success in the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Transcription   Man: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host, Jen Spencer, as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound, and today I am joined by Justin Gray, who is CEO and founder of LeadMD. Welcome, Justin.   Justin: Thanks for having me.   Jen: Well, it's so good to have you, and for those of you who are listening who don't know, Justin brings a lot of expertise, I'm really excited to have him on the podcast. In addition to being the CEO and founder of LeadMD, he's also a weekly columnist at Inc., the CEO and cofounder at Six Bricks, managing partner at Gray Matter Ventures, partner at Grayson Organics, and CMO and cofounder at PaidSuite. That's a lot. You're a busy, busy man.   Justin: It's a mouthful.   Jen: Yeah. I'm sure our listeners are going to be able to gain a wealth of knowledge from you. So, Justin, tell us a little bit about these companies that you work with.   Justin: Sure, I've kind of picked different organizations up along the way almost by accident, but, really, the centerpiece organization that I'm a part of is LeadMD, a digital marketing consultancy. Out of that kind of sprung the need to educate and match great marketers with employers, and that's what Six Bricks does. I've since formed a little venture, a very little venture organization called Gray Matter Ventures that I'm using to feed organizations, including Six Bricks. Then I've got some other ventures in the payments world, and then a very unprofitable labor of love known as Grayson Organics, which is actually my family's farm that we converted into organic in 2008 and have been running small field crops ever since.   Jen: That's awesome. So, what we talk about here on the show is partner programs and partner channels. And, so being a founder, a cofounder, on the executive team of these organizations, you have a lot of experience running companies and contributing to these organizations. In your experience, when do you think the best time is to start a partner channel program?   Justin: Yeah, it's kind of like that old question of when's the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago, the second best today. Obviously it does depend on the business model. The payments business that I'm a part of operates exclusively through the channel, so we started that organization with the notion that we would be managing and maintaining a completely outsourced sales channel to sell and implement our products. So, look at the model through which you want to sell, if that's going to be totally outsourced to the channel, or if that's going to be a blend.   Have a consorted channel strategy right from the beginning and tackle really difficult questions like who's going to market on behalf of the organization, are you going to do it from a corporate level, are you going to shove that down to and empower the franchisees or channel partners to do that on their own behalf? Those are decisions that are always best made right upfront, and so I think just as with anything, developing a really strong strategy from the beginning and executing towards that consistently is what we see as a recipe for growth.   Jen: Would you mind sharing why you decided to sell exclusively through channel for that organization?   Justin: Yeah, so sales is all about trust, and that particular organization, which is PaidSuite, sells integrated payment products. So we looked at the marketplace and we could've formed our own inside sales channel and tried to penetrate the market from scratch, but, instead, we chose to actually partner with software organizations and ISOs that already had existing relationships and add our suite of products to their repertoire. So, it just really allowed us to break down those trust barriers, accelerated our speed to market, and led to a good deal of success within that business. I think, had we chosen to try to kind of brute force it and spin up our own inside sales channel, it would've been a much longer time to market. It would've been a lot more investment on education and training, and just empowering that force. So, again, it was the right decision for us based on what we wanted to accomplish in the business within our first 24 months.   Jen: Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely. I think what's really cool about you and your perspective is that you have that business where you are going to market through these partners, but then with LeadMD, you are a partner of many technology organizations that I know a lot of our listeners would know about. And, so you get to see both sides of it, and that, I think, brings this other layer of expertise to you that a lot of people don't have. Most people pretty much live on one side of the fence or the other.     Justin: Right. Yeah, actually, one of our strongest verticals is channel sales. We've got organizations like Blue Cross Blue Shield, we've got a lot of med device organizations, Mobi, just organizations that are dependent upon that extra layer of support, and again that provides a lot of interesting challenges from a marketing standpoint. It presents a lot of opportunities to empower those sales channels, educate them, and, obviously, we got to keep them up-to-date on the quickly evolving world that we all live in. So, definitely a huge amount of opportunity, and then we really do see the folks that are empowering their channel partners through marketing and through education. That's a strategic advantage for our organization, absolutely.   Jen: Let's talk more about that. With all of your experience, I'm sure you've created a number of strategic alliances that have been fruitful. Maybe you've even seen some that have fell flat, whether they're partnerships that you've been a part of or that you've been supporting from an agency perspective. I'm wondering if there was any sort of recipe or repeating factor that you could recognize in a partner or in a partnership that would signal this makes sense, this is a mutually beneficial alliance.   Justin: Yeah, and that's always a really difficult prediction to have right upfront. My crystal ball is broken, so what may seem like a great partnership where everyone's aligned and we're going to go to market together and achieve this awesome amount of success is often not the case. You really need to be careful about whether this is going to be truly a value equation, as we term it, presenting equal value on both sides. And, so we've tried to get more formalized throughout the years at LeadMD as we've taken a look at the types of partners that we would potentially want to work with, the types of partnerships that have worked well in the past, and really gauge new potentials on that scale. So, we've actually kind of developed a partner evaluation framework that we leverage when we're looking at a new partner.   Having worked with over 3,000 B2B technology organizations, we have a lot of folks that want access to our customer base, but that isn't always a as I mentioned a balanced equation. We're often not getting the same amount as we're putting in there, so we've kind of tried to really hone in on what makes a successful partnership. For us, it really does come down to the fact of can we wrap services around that partner offering? Does it lead to more work, frankly, for our organization? We're a time and materials billing organization, so we need to figure out a way to build clients and provide value. And if the partner solution doesn't enable us to do so, it's a difficult partnership for us. We definitely need to be enabling our customers, and if we can't do that in the form of providing that solution and wrapping our best practices around it, it's not a good solution for us.   Jen: Right, and that's great food for thought for a lot of businesses that are creating these agency partner programs, I'm glad to have that kind of feedback to share with folks. Can you also kind of tell us when you think about the most successful partnerships that you've had, where did they come from? For people that are just starting out and just starting to build their program, is there anything we can learn from some of your most successful endeavors?   Justin: Yeah, our most successful partnership to date is obviously Marketo, and like anything successful in business, I think it comes with a healthy dose of luck. So, there is some unrepeatability around that as well, but I would say that what is a constant between all of our good relationships is we're using that solution in house. We have a relationship with them, they're aligned with our culture and we know that we align from a methodology standpoint. So, I was Marketo's 20th customer way back in 2006. I started using the platform before I was ever a partner at a payments organization, I sold my piece of that payments company, and kind of went out on my own and didn't really know what I wanted to do.   Some folks hit me up and said, "Hey, would you help us build a sales and marketing engine?" and I said, "Yeah, that sounds great, but you're going to have to implement some technologies that I know how to run. So, let's go ahead and implement salesforce.com, let's implement Marketo, and let's really get all of the text back in place to support that repeatable engine." Throughout the years, we kind of grew with Marketo and formed a really strong partnership with them to the point where they would outsource a lot of their work to us. We were participating in deal cycles with their sales reps. We were empowering them where they needed kind of that value engineering consultative approach. A lot of their sales reps just aren't marketing experts, and our folks are. So, we were willing to slot in within that sales process, provide that marketing expertise, and, of course, as a result, we were able to win business.   So, again, it was a win-win throughout that entire life cycle, and that really is why that's our flagship partnership. We've been able to repeat that with a lot of core digital marketing platforms and sales platforms that we brought on. Engagio is probably the newest member of that stable, and, again, we use the software, we see the value in it. We have the expertise in house to really ensure success within the partner orgs that we board on that platform. So, I would say that you can't discount the value of relationships. Relationships really drive everything that we do. I love the way that marketing is currently going, in kind of this quality over quantity aspect, finally. And, at the center of most of those relationships and partnerships is a really tight understanding and alignment that you just don't get when you start taking all-comers.   Jen: Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because you wrote an article fairly recently, and it was called "How to Avoid Getting Eaten Alive by Your Partner Ecosystem." I loved it. If anyone hasn't read it, I recommend when you're done listening, go check it out. It's at leadmd.com/marketplace, we'll also link to it in the show notes. In the article you say, if you want to get to the heart of how well your potential partner performs, become a client first. And, it is really great advice, and I understand from your Marketo story, even from the Engagio perspective, I understand it. Is it a hard and fast rule that you have to use that technology in order to find value? Could you see partnering with an organization if you weren't actually using that product first? Or, is that part of that evaluation criteria that you have?   Justin: I mean, it's one that we feel really strongly about. There's exceptions to every rule, obviously. I would say that there's no better way to really get an understanding of how well that partner treats its customer base, and, therefore, my customer base, than to experience that firsthand. So, we view that as something that's really important to our business. Now, we're also a sales and marketing consultancy who can use all of these products, if a product doesn't have the fit within your stack or within your go-to-market strategy, then I certainly understand that.   It is absolutely my pet peeve when we're up against a competitive deal, and we're up against an agency that doesn't use Marketo themselves. I mean, it's as simple as navigating over to their site and looking at the scripts that are contained on the site. It's like hey, great, you're up against us and a HubSpot partner. Why is the solution that they're proposing to you not good enough for them to use? That's fundamentally part of our sales strategy. We've been using this, we know the ins and outs of it, we don't support any other marketing automation platform, so we feel strongly enough about it to make it an exclusive partner of ours as well. So, we kind of put our money where our mouth is, and, eat our own dog food, drink our own champagne, make up our own bad analogies. It's core to our business. It works for us.   Jen: Yeah, it definitely makes sense. So, back to that article. You mentioned to avoid partnerships where you stand nothing to gain.   Justin: Sounds obvious, right?.   Jen: Yeah, it's obvious. Obvious, right, but, I mean, no one goes into a partnership going, "Well, I'm not going to get anything out of this. Let's jump right in," right? So, it's possible at the start of the relationship everyone's like, "This is going to be amazing," but then as the companies maybe grow, you evolve maybe a partnership becomes one-sided. Maybe you end up doing the heavy lifting without anything in return. Do you have any advice for folks on how to handle that kind of situation? Do you break up? How do you not burn a bridge? Do you hang on hoping there might be something in the long-term that will keep this alive? What advice do you have?   Justin: Yeah, I think there's obviously a couple of facets to that. So, as I mentioned, it sounds super obvious, right, but I would say that there is kind of this aspirational partnership that exists out there. I feel like this happens a lot with big logos. Like, we know they've got a ton of customers and their customers kind of look like our customers. Thinking putting out a press release and putting this logo on our site is going to add so much credibility, but we don't take that extra step to really drill into what are we going to do together? How are we going to realize this value?   I find asking those uncomfortable questions yields the best result. So, yeah, we both operate in the same space, and we've got similar customers, but what are we going to do together, explicitly, tomorrow? Are we going to market together? Are we going to create content? Are we going to do some account planning and alignment exercises? What is success going to look like in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months? How many deals are we going to have boarded? When we board a deal, what is that process going to look like? Am I going to run the majority of the implementation? Do you want to own some as the technology provider?   So, having those really difficult conversations upfront I feel helps to avoid the very difficult conversation down the road where you've been a part of that partnership, you've had the logo on your site for two years, and there's never been anything that's precipitated from that agreement, and now you've got to go back and say, "Hey, this isn't working out." I mean, breaking up is hard to do, so I would say the more that you can really drill in, get explicit, and set up a plan right from jump street, the less you will have to go back and revisit and have those uncomfortable conversations.   So, that's first and foremost. Now, if you haven't done that or things change, conditions change, the landscape looks different, and suddenly you find yourself in that bad position, I think it's best just to use real world data there. Let's look back at the pipeline we've generated together, it's weak to nonexistent. The types of customers that we've boarded maybe are no longer customers, or maybe we weren't able to make those customers happy because of the misalignment of expectations. One of our core tenets is we track everything. If I'm boarding a new partner, I'm tracking that all within CRM. What deals are we working on together? What deals did we swing and miss? What deals did we win? And, then I can pull those reports.   The Marketo partnership has not been all roses and champagne either. Marketo's gone through some pretty big market shifts. During the course of our partnership, they've gone from 20 employees to 1,500 employees. They've gone public, and then they were taken back private. There are major continental shifts that we've seen within that organization, and the org today behaves fundamentally differently than it did when we first rolled out our partnership and I wrote a contract on the back of a napkin. So, as it's progressed, the data has really enabled me to come to those partner conversations and say, "Look, this is data from 2013. Look at the data from '15. You're my largest competitor right now," which at one point Marketo was my largest competitor.   So, you have to be able to back up those shifts with actual data, and what I actually find, certainly within larger organizations, is they're often not well-positioned to gather that data themselves, or there's been so much turnover or process shift internally that they're actually using my dataset as law to describe the success of the partnership. So track everything, and that makes those conversations a little bit easier as you get into that data, and everyone can look at the same thing and agree that, yeah, this isn't working and maybe there's a solution to that, or maybe it's time to go our separate ways. But regardless, we can't blame it on emotion at that point, we want to blame it on something that's tangible, that's real.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations that you've partnered with that have benefited from the fact that you are gathering that kind of data. Unfortunately, for a lot of companies that are growing a million miles a minute it does seem sometimes like an afterthought, just this extra thing to do. But, it is extremely important, especially when you're balancing those resources and trying to figure out where to spend your time. So, do you also use that data that you might have with one partnership to help determine what success looks like in another partnership? Do you keep that internally and leverage that as a baseline?   Justin: Yeah, so we'll introduce that baseline in partnership conversations. We're potentially looking at a new partnership right now, and normally the first question out of my mouth is what does your most successful partnership look like? You can get a big feel for how that process is going to go by the data that they're able to present. If they're more on the fluffy side of, "Well, we do some activities together. They sponsor our trade show every year or our conference. We do some marketing together," I'll know that this is not as data-driven as we want it to be because I want to see sales pipeline.   I want to see the amount of revenue that you've closed together in the last 18 months. What does the joint sales cycle look like? So, absolutely, we've taken that data collection and turned it into a benchmark to which we hold other potential partnerships. The question always exists out there of there's this new company and they don't have a long track record, but we think there's a lot of potential. And, those are going to exist.   When we partnered with Engagio, they were less than 12 months old at that point, but, fortunately, they were made up by the who's who of previous Marketo employees. So, there was some faith that was included within that partnership as well, knowing that Jon Miller's not going to start an organization that's going to tank. Again, that's where you have to kind of leverage those relationships, whether it's data-driven or it's relationship-driven, insight is the key out of either one of those points.   Jen: All right. You could say that that relationship originally came out of good data as well, so that was definitely a very, very, very safe bet. Okay. So, I have one last official channel question for you, and that is, what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's really trying to breathe life back into their channel partner program? We see this a lot, we see a lot of organizations who start a program. And they probably under-resourced it, or they expected to do one thing, it does something else, and now they're kind of back at it ready to reinvest. If you could give that person, that organization, or that leader advice, what would it be?   Justin: Yeah, I really do love data, but, moreover, I love getting to the why. I don't just want to hop on a phone call or go to a meeting and ask that question. I want to see it firsthand. So, my number one piece of advice to our internal folks or anyone that's in charge of managing partner relationships is get out there and get embedded within that partner. We love to go out into bullpens and just work for a day and see what those conversations look like at that partner organization. Are they mentioning us? Are they having conversations that we could be assisting but we're not being tapped to come in and be that resource?   I love getting embedded within those environments and just seeing how their process works. Is another partner there when you show up? We've had that happen before. I had one of my competitors literally officing out of Marketo for a while, and we were like, "Wow, we really need to up our game," because they've got a level of access that we're just not taking advantage of right now. So we immediately said, "We'd love to get a cube here and park ourselves two days out of every week." And we flew someone over, and I actually eventually lit up a sales team in San Francisco to be closer to them. That insight would've never come about if I hadn't made a trip over there and just said, "I'm going to sit in your bullpen and see what these conversations sound like." Ultimately, you want to understand what does that sales pitch sound like? Where do they struggle? Where do they need help? Where can I provide some value? Simply saying, "You need to help me sell into your customer base," or, "You need to sell my services," is not going be effective.   Communicating “We have to have a solution-based message. So, when you're running up against this objection, we can help, and I heard your sales reps combat that objection a dozen times when I was out onsite.” So, I really do think that kind of that employee exchange approach is a highly valuable exercise, and, regardless of whether that has to do with partner or any other aspects of the business, I really do encourage our employees to get out there, get embedded with the partner, and understand why aren't we more successful in this partnership? I guarantee you will learn something that you would not have had you not been in that close proximity.   Jen: Absolutely. Gosh, that collaboration is unbelievable. Such good advice, and such an awesome story, too. Now, before we totally wrap this up, at the end of the podcast I always ask people some more kind of personal questions to get to know them a little bit. I make it a speed round, but I don't know how fast we end up really going, but just four questions. Are you up for it?   Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.   Jen: Okay, okay. So, first question is what is your favorite city?   Justin: My favorite city is San Francisco, California.   Jen: Me too. I'm going to ask you why. See, I do this, I make it not be speedy because I want to ask more questions.   Justin: I lived in San Francisco for two years, really for the purposes of assisting in LeadMD's growth, and, I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, so probably not the most culturally diverse epicenter in the world. It just blew my mind to be able to walk down the street and get the best food in the world, walk into a networking group and everyone's leaning forward and engaged, and participating in these conversations. It just seemed like everyone wanted to be there, and that's kind of how I describe San Francisco.   You could throw an event in Arizona, and struggle to get five people to show up. I was part of a Bulldog meet up when I was over there, and like 30, 40 people would show up with their Bulldogs every week. And, I was like, "Jesus, I can't get this level of engagement when I'm giving away free training, much less trying to get Bulldogs to show up to a meet up." So, it just seemed very intentional, and I love intentional things.   Jen: So, side note...I'm gonna help you. We're going to lobby together for, like, a high speed train between Phoenix and San Francisco.   Justin: Yeah, absolutely.   Jen: So, that'll be a pet project in our free time, Justin.   Justin: Hyperloop.   Jen: Yeah. The next question for you was going to be are you an animal lover? You mentioned the Bulldogs, so is that a yes?   Justin: I am. Yeah, I love bull breeds, and I love English Bulldogs. I have a 10-year-old English Bulldog named Chubs. It's a girl. I wanted to give her a complex early in life. When that dog's no longer around, I will absolutely be heartbroken. So, yeah, I love animals, love dogs.   Jen: All right. Question number three. Mac or PC?   Justin: Mac, a thousand times.   Jen: Yeah. And, question number four. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip. Where would it be to?   Justin: Oh, that's a really good one. I've got this weird philosophy on life that I love really new experiences in really comfortable places. So, I would actually probably go to St. Thomas. It's my favorite spot on earth, but I'd love to try to figure out some new stuff when I was down there. The last time I was down there we found this little secluded pool that is in this outcropping of rocks on one of the many islands that surround St. Thomas. So, I think it's just one of those places where you can go and find something new every single time, and definitely one of my favorite places on earth.   Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was so awesome getting a chance to talk to you about channel, about partnerships on both sides of that fence. If anyone who's listening would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?   Justin: I'm looking forward to being the only guest on this show ever that actually loves using Twitter, so you can hit me up at @jgraymatter on Twitter, or you can check us out. Our site leadmd.com. I'd like to say we give away more best practices than most agencies have. So, all of our content's there available for free, and, of course, my contact information is there as well.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you, and thank you all for joining us for The Allbound Podcast. We'll catch you next week with an all-new episode.   Justin: Thanks, Jen.   Man: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And, remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Fail Your Tail Off with Justin  Christianson of Conversion Fanatics Jack Butala:                   Justin is a self proclaimed numbers junkie and best selling author on the subject of conversion optimization. A 13 year veteran of digital marketing. He has a unique ability to find holes in marketing plans, and quickly plug them for a better return on investment. After several online successes and a successful private consulting practice, Justin along with [Manish Punjambi 00:00:22]. Is that the correct pronunciation, Justin? Justin:                                   That is, Manish Punjambi. Jack Butala:                   Excellent. Co-founded conversion phonetics. A boutique-style all in one conversion rate optimization company that serves mid to large scale clients. Effectively increasing the effectiveness of their online marketing campaigns and website conversions. Justin, before we start, I got to tell you. Jill and I, we talked about hiring you as a consultant. We figure we just have you on the show instead. Justin:                                   That works too. Jack Butala:                   Excellent. Jilly, you're with us right? Jill DeWit:                            Yep. I'm here. Jack Butala:                   First question, how did you get started in this business, and what's your background? Justin:                                   Well, I actually started out in network marketing back in 2002. Figured out the whole belly-to-belly prospecting, trying to convince my family and friends into joining my next pills, thrills, and lotions company wasn't out for me. I found internet marketing, and quickly moved into affiliate marketing. Sold a publishing company, an information marketing company back in my business partners in 2009. Kept getting asked about implementation and optimization, so I went into private consulting. Then, we decided to formalize it a couple of years ago. Jack Butala:                   Great. Jill DeWit:                            Nice. Jack Butala:                   You've just figured it all out now? There's no where else to go for you? You figured it out? Justin:                                   Yeah. I'm constantly learning. Jack Butala:                   When did you realize this profession was for you? Did the profession choose you or did you choose it? Justin:                                   It kind of chose me. Jack Butala:                   Good. Justin:                                   Figured out that I was good at a lot of the implementation things. I'm just kind of a implementer by nature. I just kind of fell where it is now, I guess. Jack Butala:                   That's great. Just for fun, what's your revenue ballpark? Justin:                                   A little over a million. Jack Butala:                   That's great. What was the worst professional experience you've had? What'd you learn? Let's say the biggest failure. Justin:                                   Biggest failure was probably taking on the wrong type of people to work with. Jill DeWit:                            Oh. Justin:                                   My lesson is choose who I get to work with. Jack Butala:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            That's cool. Have you ever had a product, or a business, or an industry that totally stumped you? Justin:                                   No. Jill DeWit:                            That's cool. Justin:                                   I really haven't. Between myself and my business partner, there isn't anything we've haven't seen or done. We're constantly evolving and learning every single day. We really haven't had anything that we haven't been able to increase the conversions on, at least in some fashion. Jack Butala:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative) Jill DeWit:                            That's cool.