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In this episode, the hosts explore the foundational financial strategies that underpin 8 and 9-figure e-commerce success. Drawing questions directly from the eCommerceFuel community, the hosts pull back the curtain on their distinct approaches to financial planning, forecasting, and capital allocation. The discussion navigates the complexities of annual budgeting, the critical decisions behind reinvesting profits versus taking dividends, and the intense debate over how to truly measure a good investment. This is an essential listen for any founder grappling with the transition from a scrappy startup to a mature, scalable enterprise. Tune in to hear how the leaders of major brands handle the financial discipline required for sustainable, high-level growth.Chapters:00:00 Introduction28:13 Navigating Product Development Timelines40:00 The Challenges of Forecasting and Demand Planning47:44 The Pressure of Growth and Stakeholder Expectations52:02 Leveraging Data and AI for Business Insights55:50 Balancing Growth and Returns01:02:50 Understanding Working Capital and Its Importance01:07:00 Return on Invested CapitalPowered By:Fulfil.io.https://bit.ly/3pAp2vuThe Only Cloud ERP Designed to Efficiently Scale 8 and 9-Figure Brands. Northbeam.https://www.northbeam.io/Postscript.https://postscript.io/Richpanel.https://www.richpanel.com/?utm_source=9O&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=ytdescSaras.https://saras-analytics.typeform.com/to/T8jpuAEb?utm_source=9operator_lp&utm_medium=find_out_moreSubscribe to The Marketing Operators Podcast here:https://www.youtube.com/@MarketingOperatorsSubscribe to The Finance Operators here:https://www.youtube.com/@FinanceOperatorsFOPS Sign up to the 9 Operators newsletter here:https://9operators.com/
Have you ever wondered what goes into a full rebrand and whether it's really worth it? In this solo episode, I take you behind the scenes of eCommerceFuel's rebranding journey, including why we did it, how much we spent, and what I wish I'd known before diving in. If you've been considering a brand refresh or are just curious about the ROI of design and messaging work, this one's for you. Listen in as I walk through the process of selecting a branding agency, navigating feedback and revisions, and rolling out our new visual identity across all touchpoints. I share honest reflections about the emotional and financial costs, how the project stretched our team, and what we've seen in terms of impact and engagement. Whether you're team “never touch the logo” or all in on the power of brand, you'll get a transparent look at the highs, lows, and learnings from this major milestone. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3HrTmBc Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Andrew Youderian launched eCommerceFuel in 2013 after stints in corporate finance and online selling. The vetted community consists of ecommerce owners whose businesses have $1 million or more in annual revenue.He says ecommerce in 2025 has matured. "Brands that adapt," he stated, "will survive in the next five to seven years."Host Eric Bandholz is a member of eCommerceFuel. In this episode, he queries Andrew about the community, the state of ecommerce, work-life balance, and change. For an edited and condensed transcript with embedded audio, see: https://www.practicalecommerce.com/adapt-to-survive-says-ecommercefuel-founderFor all condensed transcripts with audio, see: https://www.practicalecommerce.com/tag/podcasts******The mission of Practical Ecommerce is to help online merchants improve their businesses. We do this with expert articles, podcasts, and webinars. We are an independent publishing company founded in 2005 and unaffiliated with any ecommerce platform or provider. https://www.practicalecommerce.com
Andrew Youderian is the Founder of eCommerceFuel, a vetted community of seven- and eight-figure sellers. Having launched and sold several e-commerce stores, he has experience in SEO, organic and content marketing, and community building. Andrew also hosts The eCommerceFuel Podcast, which features e-commerce thought leaders. In this episode… Many entrepreneurs believe that achieving a nine-figure exit is the ultimate goal, but the pursuit often comes with significant trade-offs. The relentless focus on scaling at all costs can lead to burnout, strained personal relationships, and an imbalance between work and life. How can you build a winning e-commerce brand without sacrificing your time and energy? As an eCommerce business builder, Andrew Youderian argues that financial freedom should be about achieving a fulfilling and balanced life rather than simply accumulating wealth. Building a durable and resilient e-commerce brand requires focusing on high-quality products, exceptional customer service, and authentic brand connections. Entrepreneurs who prioritize these elements can create sustainable businesses that thrive, even in highly competitive markets. Andrew also highlights the importance of operational efficiency, recommending that business owners stay lean and avoid unnecessary overhead that can hinder long-term growth. In today's episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris hosts Andrew Youderian, the Founder of eCommerceFuel, to discuss building strong e-commerce stores to achieve financial freedom. Andrew explores AI's potential to enhance e-commerce websites, the importance of maintaining conviction in your efforts, and allocating efforts throughout various areas of your life.
Are you ready for a fresh take on eCommerceFuel? We're mixing things up with the podcast and rolling out some new changes that mark a significant shift, from a new soundtrack to a revamped content strategy that dives deeper into not just the how-tos of eCommerce, but also the whys and the broader implications for entrepreneurs. Listen in as I discuss my reasoning for these changes, as well as why I'm strategically scaling back on interviews to share more personal insights and adventures in business and life. I also dive into my new approach to quarterly reviews, what I'm prioritizing in 2025, and more. You can expect to hear more on topics that spark passion, drive purpose, and align with creating an amazing life. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3PCCtEr Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Have you ever wondered what it takes to manage a vibrant community of eCommerce entrepreneurs? In this episode, I'm thrilled to chat with Dana Eriksson, the Director of Community and Connection at eCommerceFuel. Dana brings her unique perspective on fostering connections and ensuring that every member of the community feels valued and understood. Listen in as Dana shares some of the complexities of community management, discussing the challenges and rewards of her role. We also talk about her journey to eCommerceFuel, her strategies for engaging with members, and her personal mission to make everyone feel included. You'll gain insights on the power of appreciation in building a supportive environment, as well as how this can transform professional relationships and enhance personal satisfaction. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3MTKOCD Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
How can entrepreneurs achieve extraordinary success without sacrificing their personal happiness or integrity? In this episode, I'm joined by Codie Sanchez, the mind behind Contrarian Thinking and an experienced investor in diverse businesses. We're exploring the significant impact of having a purpose-driven approach in both business and personal realms, strategies for maintaining well-being amidst business success, and more. Listen in as Codie discusses the importance of continuous engagement in work—even after achieving financial freedom—and how to leverage personal experiences and challenges into growth opportunities. You'll learn about the concept of contrarian thinking in investments and the potential of acquisitions to transform business growth and sustainability. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3QT53T1 Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Steve Chou makes an appearance on today's episode to discuss some key takeaways he and Mike learned while attending EcommerceFuel Live 2024. It's conference season for eCommerce! I just got back from ECF Live 2024, which was a great experience where I got to meet old friends and discuss a few of the issues that's been going on in the industry like Amazon's new fees, the recent Google update, and the ever-eroding margins. As always, I like to get someone who was at the conference with me to discuss some of the things that we've learned, and who else better than Steve Chou! Steve is a good friend of mine for several years now who runs My Wife Quit Her Job and is also hosting this year's Seller Summit, so we're live today to talk about the things we've learned. We talk about the 4 key takeaways that we came away with, and how we can apply it to our businesses. Here's some timestamps to get you guys going: Intro - 0:00 Catching up with Steve - 0:30 Mike's favorite time of the year - 1:15 Mike and Steve's ECF Live experience - 2:42 Steve's first takeaway #1: Google Update - 3:54 The future of Search and AI - 4:29 How fast things change - 9:25 Second takeaway #2: Tiktok Shop - 10:37 Third takeaway #3: Higher profit margins are the key to success - 15:11 Fourth takeaway #4: Amazon's New Fees - 18:01 What's happening in Seller Summit this year? - 23:06 Seller Summit's Mastermind Day - 23:45 Sign up for Seller's Summit - 27:07 Why Mike hates flying - 30:03 Steve, it was great recording with you as always! I really appreciate you coming on and doing this podcast with me. If you guys would like to learn more about Steve, check out MyWifeQuitHerJob to learn more about him! Seller Summit is on May 13th and 14th this year, so get your tickets here and you can put in a special request to get Mike as your Mastermind Leader. Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes if you enjoy our content. If you have any questions or any topics you'd like us to discuss on the podcast, you can now email us directly at support@ecomcrew.com! Also, we would really appreciate it if you would leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks for listening!
In this episode, we're heading to the vibrant and bustling eCommerceFuel Live 2024 in New Orleans. Join me, Kurt Elster, for raw, unscripted conversations with some of the biggest names in eCommerce. Get ready to hear from Brett Curry of OMGcommerce, Elaine Eason at QuietLight, Eulalie Cook from Tadpull, Jimmy Kim of Sendlane, and the incredibly talented copywriter Lianna Patch. We'll also dive into insights with Taylor Holiday from Common Thread Collective, among other notable guests. This episode is all about getting to the heart of eCommerce - the unfiltered, real-world experiences and strategies from those who breathe life into this industry every day. So, tune in and get ready to absorb wisdom and stories that you won't find anywhere else.Highlights:Exclusive, unscripted interviews with eCommerce expertsA deep dive into the unpolished, real side of the eCommerce worldInsights and stories from top industry professionalsShow LinksECF LiveSponsorsFree 30-day trial of Zipify OCUIntelligemsNever miss an episodeSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsJoin Kurt's newsletterHelp the showAsk a question in The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Facebook GroupLeave a reviewSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsWhat's Kurt up to?See our recent work at EthercycleSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelApply to work with Kurt to grow your store.
Ever wondered how to cultivate a thriving eCommerce community that's both connected and supportive? In this episode, I sit down with Diana Hawk, the new Director of Connection and Community at eCommerceFuel, to uncover the secrets behind fostering meaningful interactions and a sense of belonging in the eCommerce world. Listen in as we dive into Diana's personal journey from overcoming social anxiety to establishing a vibrant network in New York City, along with her tactics for orchestrating impactful small meetups. We also discuss the crucial role of inclusivity within community building and peek into Diana's literary passion through her new book. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/49RBiJI Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Katrina McKinnon talks with Jason Barnard about how to leverage AI in eCommerce content. Katrina McKinnon is the founder ofCopySmiths.com and specializes in providing blog writing services tailored for eCommerce stores. She is one of the 50 founding members of eCommerceFuel.com and has made significant contributions to the community as a speaker at three conferences and as a Community Greeter. During her ten years as an outsourcing and content expert, Katrina has played a critical role in supporting a community of over 1,000 members. She has also demonstrated her expertise through guest appearances on popular podcasts such as eCommerce Fuel, Practical eCommerce and eComCrew. Katrina has created over 3,000 training screencasts and reviews aimed at writers and the eCommerce community. She is expanding her influence as the administrator of an African Writers Group that has over 35,000 members. The transformative role of AI in eCommerce content creation has had a huge impact on the quality of content and production. Writers are creating even more targeted and personalized written content for specific audiences. And AI has incredibly scaled and optimized content creation workflows with writers' creativity, unique voice and knowledge of refining AI-generated content. In this episode, Katrina McKinnon discusses the significant shift in content production dynamics due to a change from a 60-person team to a more efficient 10-person team. She emphasizes the importance for authors to maintain their unique voice amidst advancing AI technologies and addresses challenges faced by non-native English speakers when using current AI text-checking tools. The conversation also covers strategies for creating compelling introductions, understanding customer identity for relevant branded search content, and recognizing how detailed content contributes to brand recognition in search results. As always, the show ends with passing the baton… Katrina passes the virtual baton to next week's groovy guest, Craig Rodney. What you'll learn from Katrina McKinnon 00:00 Katrina Mckinnon and Jason Barnard 01:08 Katrina McKinnon's Search Generative Experience Result 01:55CopySmiths.com's Search Generative Experience Result 02:39 How Maintaining a Consistent Brand Profile Improves Branded Search Strategy 05:55 The Future of Personal Branding and Online Interaction 06:56 What is Kalibot and How Can it Sing the Answers to Your Questions? 08:07 How Does the Change from a Team of 60 to a Team of 10 Affect the Production of Content? 08:51 How AI Improves the Quality of Content Creation 09:20 How Does AI Help Writers Learn About Complex Products Quickly? 09:42 How AI Facilitates a Writer's Understanding and Analysis of Product Differences for Targeted Audiences 11:23 How Does AI Assist in Crafting Customized Buyer's Guides for a Specific Niche Audience? 12:17 What Role Does Human Supervision Play in the Refinement of Ai-Generated Content? 12:26 How Do Unique Voices and Point of Views Gain Increased Value in Google Search Results? 12:42 Why is it Important for Authors to Maintain Their Unique Voice in the Face of Advancing AI Technologies? 13:20 What Challenges Do Non-native English Speakers Face When Using Current AI Text-Checking Tools? 16:37 How Important is a Compelling Introduction to Written Content? 18:25 What is a Brand SERP from a Beginner's Perspective? 20:04 How can Brands Find a Balance Between Complexity and Clarity in Their Content? 20:52 How can Understanding the Customer's Identity and Needs Improve the Relevance of Content for Branded Search and Knowledge Panels? 21:40 Why has the Baseline for SEO Content Shifted in Recent Years? 22:39 How Detailed Content Contributes to Brand Recognition in Search Results? 24:05 Why is Data Becoming Increasingly Valuable in the Digital Landscape? 25:59 How Does Human Creativity Contribute to Generating New Knowledge Compared to AI? ...
Katrina McKinnon talks with Jason Barnard about how to leverage AI in eCommerce content. Katrina McKinnon is the founder of CopySmiths.com and specializes in providing blog writing services tailored for eCommerce stores. She is one of the 50 founding members of eCommerceFuel.com and has made significant contributions to the community as a speaker at three conferences and as a Community Greeter. During her ten years as an outsourcing and content expert, Katrina has played a critical role in supporting a community of over 1,000 members. She has also demonstrated her expertise through guest appearances on popular podcasts such as eCommerce Fuel, Practical eCommerce and eComCrew. Katrina has created over 3,000 training screencasts and reviews aimed at writers and the eCommerce community. She is expanding her influence as the administrator of an African Writers Group that has over 35,000 members. The transformative role of AI in eCommerce content creation has had a huge impact on the quality of content and production. Writers are creating even more targeted and personalized written content for specific audiences. And AI has incredibly scaled and optimized content creation workflows with writers' creativity, unique voice and knowledge of refining AI-generated content. In this episode, Katrina McKinnon discusses the significant shift in content production dynamics due to a change from a 60-person team to a more efficient 10-person team. She emphasizes the importance for authors to maintain their unique voice amidst advancing AI technologies and addresses challenges faced by non-native English speakers when using current AI text-checking tools. The conversation also covers strategies for creating compelling introductions, understanding customer identity for relevant branded search content, and recognizing how detailed content contributes to brand recognition in search results. As always, the show ends with passing the baton… Katrina passes the virtual baton to next week's groovy guest, Craig Rodney. What you'll learn from Katrina McKinnon 00:00 Katrina Mckinnon and Jason Barnard 01:08 Katrina McKinnon's Search Generative Experience Result 01:55CopySmiths.com's Search Generative Experience Result 02:39 How Maintaining a Consistent Brand Profile Improves Branded Search Strategy 05:55 The Future of Personal Branding and Online Interaction 06:56 What is Kalibot and How Can it Sing the Answers to Your Questions? 08:07 How Does the Change from a Team of 60 to a Team of 10 Affect the Production of Content? 08:51 How AI Improves the Quality of Content Creation 09:20 How Does AI Help Writers Learn About Complex Products Quickly? 09:42 How AI Facilitates a Writer's Understanding and Analysis of Product Differences for Targeted Audiences 11:23 How Does AI Assist in Crafting Customized Buyer's Guides for a Specific Niche Audience? 12:17 What Role Does Human Supervision Play in the Refinement of Ai-Generated Content? 12:26 How Do Unique Voices and Point of Views Gain Increased Value in Google Search Results? 12:42 Why is it Important for Authors to Maintain Their Unique Voice in the Face of Advancing AI Technologies? 13:20 What Challenges Do Non-native English Speakers Face When Using Current AI Text-Checking Tools? 16:37 How Important is a Compelling Introduction to Written Content? 18:25 What is a Brand SERP from a Beginner's Perspective? 20:04 How can Brands Find a Balance Between Complexity and Clarity in Their Content? 20:52 How can Understanding the Customer's Identity and Needs Improve the Relevance of Content for Branded Search and Knowledge Panels? 21:40 Why has the Baseline for SEO Content Shifted in Recent Years? 22:39 How Detailed Content Contributes to Brand Recognition in Search Results? 24:05 Why is Data Becoming Increasingly Valuable in the Digital Landscape? 25:59 How Does Human Creativity Contribute to Generating New Knowledge Compared to AI? ...
Episode 508: Shaan Puri (https://twitter.com/ShaanVP) and Sam Parr (https://twitter.com/theSamParr) revisit predictions they've made over the last three years to see how they stacked up. Were they wrong? Were they right? Did they miss the biggest opportunities of their lives? Find out. Want to see more MFM? Subscribe to our YouTube channel here. Want MFM Merch? Check out our store here. Want to see the best clips from MFM? Subscribe to our clips channel here. — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Try Shepherd Out - https://www.supportshepherd.com/ • Shaan's Personal Assistant System - http://shaanpuri.com/remoteassistant • Power Writing Course - https://maven.com/generalist/writing • Small Boy Newsletter - https://smallboy.co/ • Daily Newsletter - https://www.shaanpuri.com/ Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com/ — Show Notes: (0:00) Intro (5:00) Prediction: Freezing sperm + DTC-TRT (11:00) Whiff: Bitclout (18:00) Prediction: Clout Kitchens (22:00) Prediction: Clubhouse fails (27:00) Whiff: Thrasio (30:00) Whiff: Privacy as a Service (33:00) Prediction: GPT-3 (37:00) Prediction: Bryan Johnson's Blueprint (43:00) Inertia is a b*tch (51:00) Prediction: Paid communities (58:00) Takeaway: The predictions that matter are on the ones you act on (1:00:00) Paying attention to irrational behaviors (1:04:00) Uber credit loophole guy - Where is he? (1:07:00) New Prediction: Beta.character.ai (1:09:00) New Prediction: Wounded unicorns — Links: • Derek from MPMD on MFM - https://tinyurl.com/2kmvsf3c • Bucked Up - https://www.buckedup.com/ • Legacy - https://www.givelegacy.com/ • Dadi (acquired by Ro) - https://ro.co/ • Hone - https://honehealth.com/ • Bitclout - https://bitclout.com/ • friend.tech - https://www.friend.tech/ • Clout Kitchens clip - https://tinyurl.com/ycxtp8nk • Clubhouse - https://www.clubhouse.com/ • Trasio - https://www.thrasio.com/ • DuckDuckGo - https://duckduckgo.com/ • Episode 94 - Is GPT-3 the Next Big Thing - https://tinyurl.com/37wfyphx • Jasper.ai - https://www.jasper.ai/ • Anthropic - https://www.anthropic.com/ • Blueprint | Bryan Johnson - https://blueprint.bryanjohnson.co/ • Braintree - https://www.braintreepayments.com/ • Monkey Inferno - https://tinyurl.com/yc842nww • Vistage - https://www.vistage.com/ • EcommerceFuel - https://www.ecommercefuel.com/ • Character.ai - https://beta.character.ai/ • Replika - https://replika.com/ Past guests on My First Million include Rob Dyrdek, Hasan Minhaj, Balaji Srinivasan, Jake Paul, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Gary Vee, Lance Armstrong, Sophia Amoruso, Ariel Helwani, Ramit Sethi, Stanley Druckenmiller, Peter Diamandis, Dharmesh Shah, Brian Halligan, Marc Lore, Jason Calacanis, Andrew Wilkinson, Julian Shapiro, Kat Cole, Codie Sanchez, Nader Al-Naji, Steph Smith, Trung Phan, Nick Huber, Anthony Pompliano, Ben Askren, Ramon Van Meer, Brianne Kimmel, Andrew Gazdecki, Scott Belsky, Moiz Ali, Dan Held, Elaine Zelby, Michael Saylor, Ryan Begelman, Jack Butcher, Reed Duchscher, Tai Lopez, Harley Finkelstein, Alexa von Tobel, Noah Kagan, Nick Bare, Greg Isenberg, James Altucher, Randy Hetrick and more. — Other episodes you might enjoy: • #224 Rob Dyrdek - How Tracking Every Second of His Life Took Rob Drydek from 0 to $405M in Exits • #209 Gary Vaynerchuk - Why NFTS Are the Future • #178 Balaji Srinivasan - Balaji on How to Fix the Media, Cloud Cities & Crypto • #169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett • #218 - Why You Should Take a Think Week Like Bill Gates • Dave Portnoy vs The World, Extreme Body Monitoring, The Future of Apparel Retail, "How Much is Anthony Pompliano Worth?", and More • How Mr Beast Got 100M Views in Less Than 4 Days, The $25M Chrome Extension, and More
As entrepreneurs, we often find ourselves looking outside the box for unconventional ideas and unexplored territories, and one of the missions of eCommerceFuel is not only to help entrepreneurs build great businesses, but also to help them build incredible lives. That's why today on the show we're diving into the topic of atypical real estate with Isaac French, owner of LiveOakLake.com, a beautiful modern resort nestled in the heart of Texas. Isaac joins us to share his insights from his unique journey, revealing how an unconventional real estate portfolio can pave the way to an incredible life. In this episode, we kick things off by discussing everything about LiveOakLake.com, understanding Isaac's motivations for choosing this unorthodox path with his real estate portfolio, and how he managed to finance the business. We also discuss the strategies he employed to market the business online, the advantages to choosing direct booking over other booking platforms, and what the technology stack operating behind the scenes look like. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: bit.ly/3Nsj5d2 Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
We often hear the story of someone selling their business and then deeply regretting it, and for today's guest that is certainly not the case. Dana Jaunzemis is the founder of PictureHangSolutions.com and HomeHealthTesting.com, one of the earliest members of eCommerceFuel, and an incredible entrepreneur who has a ton of experience in mergers and acquisitions. She joins the show to dive into the whole experience of buying, selling, and what life after business is really like. Listen in as we explore Dana's motivations for selling her business, her journey in navigating post-sale life, and elements from her entrepreneurial days that she still longs for. Dana also shares her strategies for keeping ties with the entrepreneurial community and sheds light on aspects of business ownership that she's relieved to have left behind. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/43u2fjm Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Are you curious about the challenges and rewards of building a holding company with multiple eCommerce businesses? Kelcey Lehrich is a longtime member of eCommerceFuel and one of the masterminds behind 365-Holdings.com, a company that has several eCommerce businesses and generates a colossal eight figures in revenue. In this episode, Kelcey shares his journey of building his business and his approach to durable capital, why he chose the holding company model, and the challenges that come with it. Plus, Kelcey will tell us all about what it was like hosting a conference last year for other holding company operators, how he ended up with his own bobblehead, and more. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/41hWmoJ Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
With Seller Summit 2023 coming up in May, Mike and Steve Chou reflect on the value of events, revisit some of their favorite memories, and how its impacted their lives in more ways than one. Masterminds are one of my favorite segments of a live event. Whether it be EcommerceFuel, Seller Summit, or whatever event that takes place, Masterminds give everyone an opportunity to voice out their problems and get actionable advice from a like-minded group of people. Steve and I first met during Andrew Youderian's event, at a Mastermind where Steve asked the table for a critique of his website, and we've been friends ever since then. This episode is more of a fun recap rather than an actionable advisory, but there's a few takeaways to learn from this episode. You'll learn about The costs of cranking up, and keeping your work burner as high as possible. How opening up and trusting like-minded individuals can be more valuable than you think. Why it's good to have a group of friends that can't relate to your entrepreneurial lifestyle. Timestamps: Intro - 00:00 An overview of what Seller Summit is, and how it's different - 2:42 How Mike and Steve Chou met for the first time - 5:06 TAKEAWAY #1: Masterminds give you the advice you need to hear, without the fluff - 7:33 How Steve Chou got into selling on Amazon - 9:58 How Steve Chou got marital advice at a Mastermind - 12:22 How Steve Chou saved Mike's marriage - 14:08 How Steve Chou made $60k in 90 minutes - 18:03 How Mike deals with old friends who aren't in eCommerce - 20:51 Why venture backed businesses are a different gamble - 23:40 Steve and Mike's experience investing on an eCommerce business together - 25:15 Why it's important to surround yourselves around those who trust you - 27:55 How events during the pandemic weren't the same - 33:55 Seller Summit 2023 details - 36:08 Lots of thanks to Steve for doing this episode with me. If you're thinking about going to Seller Summit, here's a link with a special discount code for Ecomcrew listeners. You can check out all of Steve's other awesome stuff over on mywifequitherjob.com. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes. Until the next one. Happy selling!
Today's interview is with one of my very favorite people in ecommerce, Andrew Youderian. Andrew is the founder of E-commerce Fuel, an online community of 7-figure & higher ecommerce store owners. Ecommerce Fuel is the best-run online community I've ever personally seen, so I started by asking Andrew what makes great online community. From there, the conversation shifted to his unique perspective (as the head of a community of over 1,000 ecom store owners) on the state of the ecommerce landscape, how hard or easy things are right now relative to the past, and ecom operators' current & ever-complicated relationship with Amazon. We close by giving Andrew a taste of his own medicine: we ask him some lightning round questions, just like he does with his guest on The Ecommerce Fuel Podcast. EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS [03:31] What is E-commerceFuel? [05:30] Curating valuable content and fostering reciprocity in the EcommerceFuel Community [08:10] Examining the success and DNA of the EcommerceFuel community [10:17] The importance of time and trust in Building a successful online community [13:37] Impact from working in the community to building strong internal teams [15:51] Hiring strategies and the importance of test projects and feedback [22:53] Insights into the e-commerce landscape from a community survey [26:07] Discussing perspectives on Amazon and e-commerce with Bill D'Allesandro [28:00] E-commerce landscape and adoption of Amazon by small brands (pros and cons of selling on Amazon) [30:37] The nuances of selling on Amazon in the e-commerce landscape & navigating the challenges faced by entrepreneurs [34:23] The evolution and future of e-commerce [37:14] Lightning round with Andrew Youderian THIS WEEK'S SPONSOR: More Staffing Hire incredible virtual professionals from the Philippines at a fraction of the cost of domestic employees with help from More Staffing. Head to www.morenow.co to get started. FOLLOW UP WITH ANDREW YOUDERIAN Join Ecommerce Fuel yourself. Listen to the E-commerce Fuel Podcast. Follow Youderian on Twitter: @youderian. FOLLOW UP WITH ANDREW FARIS Follow Andrew on Twitter: @andrewjfaris. Work with Andrew: www.ajfgrowth.com. Email Andrew (including about advertising on The Andrew Faris Podcast): podcast@ajfgrowth.com. MUSIC Intro Music: "Tell Me Mama" by The Devious Means Outro Music: "Rusty Little Scissors" by The Devious Means
Earlier this month, the eCommerceFuel community came together for ECF Live, an event filled with three and a half days of adventure, learning, and connection with smart and interesting entrepreneurs. In this episode, we're recapping the event with Katrina McKinnon, an ECF Live keynote speaker on AI in eCommerce and owner of CopySmiths.com, a high-end content agency and production group for eCommerce. Listen in as we recap the event, reminisce about our experiences, and dive into our overall takeaways from ECF Live, including some intriguing insights on the future of AI in business and its potential implications. Additionally, we share some of the major takeaways from the event, including Katrina's perspective on the AI session, the power and benefits of Wise.com, and how AI has actually made content creation more challenging. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3LK756c Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
These are not predictions, and I don't have the crystal ball. I've been talking to many DTC founders & marketing directors in 2022, and we, at BSR Digital, have helped many DTC brands grow through paid ads & email marketing, so I have recorded this episode to tell you our thoughts on what will continue to happen in 2023 so you can take action. In this episode... The 4 marketing pillars we analyze at BSR Digital, and you should too The importance of building a brand Why you should start collecting Zero-party data right now Topics we discussed on the podcast that could be useful for your e-commerce brand The 4 levers to growing an e-commerce brand Resources mentioned in this episode: EcommerceFuel's 2022 Report Brian Roisentul on LinkedIn BSR Digital's website
Dalia Rojas is the owner of Sixty61.com, an incredible brand and eCommerce store that carries custom sport bike parts and accessories. Dalia is also a newer member to the eCommerceFuel community, and she's been an incredible member in the short time she's been part of the community, so I wanted to get her on the podcast to learn more about her, what she's up to in eCommerce, and her interesting journey to owning Sixty61.com. Listen in as Dalia shares how she first acquired the brand after coming from a background in tech, how that background has benefitted the business and growth, and how she has been able to leverage multiple platforms to sell her product. We also discuss the exclusive distributor agreement she has with an Italian exhaust company, how she went about securing that agreement, and whether it has lived up to the hype. If you're interested in learning more about what it's like selling on Amazon, eBay, and Walmart, or how to get into an exclusive distributor agreement in your industry, this is an episode you won't want to miss! You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3AVmcUq Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Ecommerce Fuel community leader Andrew Youderian joins us to discuss the results of his 2022 ecommerce trends report gathered directly from store owners like you.We'll give you a unique, detailed look at what trends are shaping the eCommerce landscape and, ultimately, your business.GUEST BIO: Andrew Youderian is the Founder of eCommerceFuel, a community for 7- and 8-figure brand owners. I'm a member, its a high quality community. Also a podcast host of Ecomm Fuel, and early inspiration for After a few years in the investment banking world, Andrew decided he'd had enough and decided to quit and start his first eCommerce business. He has since sold numerous eCommerce stores over the years and loves geeking out about eCommerce, investing, finance, marketing and community.Show Links2022 eCommerce Trends ReporteCommerceFuel.comeCommerceFuel PodcasterTw:@youderianSponsorsFree 30-day trial of Zipify OCU - To get an unadvertised gift, email help@zipify.com and ask for the "Tech Nasty Bonus".Back up your store with RewindTry Bold Product Upsell, free trialPrivy: The Fastest Way To Grow Sales With Email & SMSNever miss an episodeSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsJoin Kurt's newsletterHelp the showAsk a question in The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Facebook GroupLeave a reviewSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsWhat's Kurt up to?See our recent work at EthercycleSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelApply to work with Kurt to grow your store.
Katrina McKinnon talks with Jason Barnard about writing content at scale with humans. Katrina McKinnon is the founder of CopySmiths.com, a company that provides blog writing services for eCommerce stores. One of the 50 founding members of eCommerceFuel.com, Katrina McKinnon has also spoken at three conferences, served as a community greeter, and been an outsourcing and content expert for an ecommerce community of over 1,000 members over the past decade. Guest on the eCommerce Fuel, Practical eCommerce and eComCrew podcasts. Creator of more than 3,000 training screencasts and reviews for authors and the eCommerce community. Administrator of an African writers group with more than 35,000 members. How can writing high-quality content be maintained as the volume of output increases? Using AI tools is one good choice, but in this awesome episode, Katrina McKinnon gives a comprehensive look at how she maintains quality with human-written content as she scales up the volume of content written. Katrina McKinnon also shares an overview of the training she gives, her experiences working with incredible Kenyan writers, some tips and tricks for scaling when writing content, and her thoughts on using AI tools. And while there are more and more AI tools that can be used for content writing, Google's recent algorithm update, the Helpful Content Update, still focuses on humans writing for humans. As always the episode ends with passing the baton. Katrina McKinnon stylishly passes the baton to the super-smart Jonas Sickler. What you'll learn from Katrina McKinnon 00:00 Katrina McKinnon and Jason Barnard01:52 CopySmiths' Brand SERP04:01 Google's Helpful Content Update05:50 Katrina McKinnon's Tips to Scale in Content Writing06:54 How to Write a Good Article 07:36 The Importance of Educated and Well Trained Writers09:17 Developing the Writer's Domain Knowledge11:17 Katrina McKinnon's Project Management Software for the CopySmiths' Team14:36 Click Up's Silly Knowledge Panel Goof15:10 Jason Barnard's Tips for Managing Click Up's Knowledge Panel16:44 How Useful and Accurate are AI Tools When Writing Content?19:05 Using AI Tools to Create High-Quality Original Content with Fewer Data Sets25:40 Working with Kenyan Writers29:20 Katrina McKinnon's Facebook Group32:00 Passing the Baton: Katrina McKinnon to Jonas Sickler This episode was recorded live on video October 11th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>
Katrina McKinnon talks with Jason Barnard about writing content at scale with humans. Katrina McKinnon is the founder of CopySmiths.com, a company that provides blog writing services for eCommerce stores. One of the 50 founding members of eCommerceFuel.com, Katrina McKinnon has also spoken at three conferences, served as a community greeter, and been an outsourcing and content expert for an ecommerce community of over 1,000 members over the past decade. Guest on the eCommerce Fuel, Practical eCommerce and eComCrew podcasts. Creator of more than 3,000 training screencasts and reviews for authors and the eCommerce community. Administrator of an African writers group with more than 35,000 members. How can writing high-quality content be maintained as the volume of output increases? Using AI tools is one good choice, but in this awesome episode, Katrina McKinnon gives a comprehensive look at how she maintains quality with human-written content as she scales up the volume of content written. Katrina McKinnon also shares an overview of the training she gives, her experiences working with incredible Kenyan writers, some tips and tricks for scaling when writing content, and her thoughts on using AI tools. And while there are more and more AI tools that can be used for content writing, Google's recent algorithm update, the Helpful Content Update, still focuses on humans writing for humans. As always the episode ends with passing the baton. Katrina McKinnon stylishly passes the baton to the super-smart Jonas Sicker. What you'll learn from Katrina McKinnon 00:00 Katrina McKinnon and Jason Barnard01:52 CopySmiths' Brand SERP04:01 Google's Helpful Content Update05:50 Katrina McKinnon's Tips to Scale in Content Writing06:54 How to Write a Good Article 07:36 The Importance of Educated and Well Trained Writers09:17 Developing the Writer's Domain Knowledge11:17 Katrina McKinnon's Project Management Software for the CopySmiths' Team14:36 Click Up's Silly Knowledge Panel Goof15:10 Jason Barnard's Tips for Managing Click Up's Knowledge Panel16:44 How Useful and Accurate are AI Tools When Writing Content?19:05 Using AI Tools to Create High-Quality Original Content with Fewer Data Sets25:40 Working with Kenyan Writers29:20 Katrina McKinnon's Facebook Group32:00 Passing the Baton: Katrina McKinnon to Jonas Sickler This episode was recorded live on video October 11th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>
Katrina McKinnon talks with Jason Barnard about writing content at scale with humans. Katrina McKinnon is the founder of CopySmiths.com, a company that provides blog writing services for eCommerce stores. One of the 50 founding members of eCommerceFuel.com, Katrina McKinnon has also spoken at three conferences, served as a community greeter, and been an outsourcing and content expert for an ecommerce community of over 1,000 members over the past decade. Guest on the eCommerce Fuel, Practical eCommerce and eComCrew podcasts. Creator of more than 3,000 training screencasts and reviews for authors and the eCommerce community. Administrator of an African writers group with more than 35,000 members. How can writing high-quality content be maintained as the volume of output increases? Using AI tools is one good choice, but in this awesome episode, Katrina McKinnon gives a comprehensive look at how she maintains quality with human-written content as she scales up the volume of content written. Katrina McKinnon also shares an overview of the training she gives, her experiences working with incredible Kenyan writers, some tips and tricks for scaling when writing content, and her thoughts on using AI tools. And while there are more and more AI tools that can be used for content writing, Google's recent algorithm update, the Helpful Content Update, still focuses on humans writing for humans. As always the episode ends with passing the baton. Katrina McKinnon stylishly passes the baton to the super-smart Jonas Sickler. What you'll learn from Katrina McKinnon 00:00 Katrina McKinnon and Jason Barnard01:52 CopySmiths' Brand SERP04:01 Google's Helpful Content Update05:50 Katrina McKinnon's Tips to Scale in Content Writing06:54 How to Write a Good Article 07:36 The Importance of Educated and Well Trained Writers09:17 Developing the Writer's Domain Knowledge11:17 Katrina McKinnon's Project Management Software for the CopySmiths' Team14:36 Click Up's Silly Knowledge Panel Goof15:10 Jason Barnard's Tips for Managing Click Up's Knowledge Panel16:44 How Useful and Accurate are AI Tools When Writing Content?19:05 Using AI Tools to Create High-Quality Original Content with Fewer Data Sets25:40 Working with Kenyan Writers29:20 Katrina McKinnon's Facebook Group32:00 Passing the Baton: Katrina McKinnon to Jonas Sickler This episode was recorded live on video October 11th 2022 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>
Mike and eCommerceFuel founder Andrew Youderian break down the biggest takeaways from this year's eCommerce Trends Report and discuss what they mean to online sellers. eCommerceFuel's eCommerce Trends Report is an annual survey of 7-8 figure store owners that provides a unique and detailed look into which trends are shaping the ecommerce landscape year over year. Joining me for this episode is none other than eCommerceFuel founder Andrew Youderian. We'll be breaking down the four biggest takeaways from the 2022 edition of the eCommerce Trends Report to paint you a clear picture of the ecommerce ecosystem and how you can take advantage of these insights to grow your business. Some of the awesome things we talk about include why ROAS is no longer a good success indicator, why raising prices is not as scary as you might think, and what the best ecommerce business model is today. Timestamps: Introduction to the 2022 eCommerce Trends Report - 1:08 Takeaway #1: ROAS Is Wildly Overrated for Success - 4:06 Takeaway #2: We've Hit Peak Amazon - 8:28 Takeaway #3: You Need to Raise Your Prices (Again) - 13:13 Sidebar: What seller can learn from artists who constantly reinvent themselves - 22:29 Takeaway #4: Manufacturing + Storytelling Crushes All Other Models - 24:53 What the eCommerceFuel community is all about - 32:00 If you want to get into the nitty gritty details of the survey, be sure to check out the full report here. As always, I enjoyed having Andrew on the podcast, and I'm excited to have him back for more episodes soon. You can check out the eCommerceFuel community on their website or hit him up on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes. Happy selling and I'll see you on the next one!
If you've noticed recently that your emails are not being read or clicked through as often as usual, you are not alone. Today on the show I have Daniel Reifenberger, our resident ECF email marketing expert and the Founder and Chief Strategist at YourLoyalTribe.com, to walk us through what has been going on in the world of email marketing—and of course, how you can improve your email deliverability metrics. Listen in as Daniel breaks down the audit he did on eCommerceFuel's email deliverability, and hear my raw, unscripted reaction to the data as I hear it for the first time. We also discuss what the auditing process was like, what the overall email marketing landscape looks like today, and tips for improving your email deliverability. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3oXDOsi Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Prime Day is now one of the most anticipated shopping events of the year for both shoppers and sellers. It started in 2015 as a way to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Amazon. Mostly it was designed to help boost sales during one of the slowest times of the year (July). It has since grown dramatically and rivaled some of the largest shopping days of the year. In this episode, we break down what we saw this year including some surprises, key learnings, and take aways for upcoming big sales events like other Prime events and Black Friday/Cyber Monday. OMG is large enough now that aggregate data from our clients is informative and meaningful. In this episode we unpack global Amazon trends and data and data from our growing list of OMG clients. Amber, OMG's Amazon Director, and Trenton, our Amazon PPC lead, join the podcast to break down what we saw from OMG clients and what we saw globally. Here's a look at what we cover. 300 million items were purchased on Prime Day 2022. 60,000 items purchased per minute (wowza). Most shopping was done from 8p-9p PT on Wednesday 7/13. What happened to CPCs and conversion rates during Prime Day. What offers and deals did well, vs. what didn't do so hot. What categories really shined and outperformed others (some pretty surprising results here). Key learnings to apply for Prime Day Early Access and Cyber 5.
Misconceptions about GDN are rampant in the eComm world. It's too hard. It's too expensive. The targeting isn't as good as Facebook. It doesn't work. Justin Brooke knows better. Justin is an ad veteran who knows just about every ad platform out there. He's partnered with and trained media buyers for Russell Brunson, Frank Kern, Dan Kennedy and more. He also worked for Agora Publishing. He KNOWS his stuff. And he believes GDN ads are better than Facebook? Why? You can still get $.40 and $.80 clicks. GDN offers targeting that you can't match on Facebook. GDN creates the impression that your brand is “everywhere”. Here are some tips we cover: His unique approach to GDN for eCommerce. His landing page must-have elements. How quality is in the quantity when it comes to GDN headlines and copy. Testing 3 angles for every idea - toward pleasure, away from pain, and something controversial. Utilizing the overnight celebrity strategy with testimonial GDN ads. How deadlines and testimonials work together. How to work hand-in-hand with the algorithm for amazing results.
Launching in the turbulent time that was February 2020, Leah McHenry, Founder & CEO of Mythologie Candles, has successfully grown her business to over $6 million in sales in just 24 months. Today Leah joins the show to describe her “secret sauce” to successful marketing—including her advice for anyone just starting their business from the ground up—and how she uses influencers to not only cut down on marketing costs, but also create more content for the brand. Listen in as she shares how the positioning and branding of her products have been so critical to the growth of her business, as well as why she believes it is essential to have your audience dialed in before you create your product. You'll learn the role her Facebook community has played in her business, how much paid traffic her company uses, and her tips for market research. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3QoKNqP Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
One of the core values of the eCommerceFuel community is reciprocity: members giving as much as they are taking. With that, we ask that all new members share a case study with the community, and new member Sarah Douglass, Founder of WiseOwlOutfitters.com, recently shared one of the best case studies on buying and selling a business. It was super detailed, really thoughtful, and offered a ton of insight—so of course, I had to have her on the show to share it. Listen in as Sarah shares the backstory to Wise Owl Outfitters, including the very honest reason why she decided to sell it, even though she loved the brand and the business that she had built. We also dive into what the selling process was like, the lessons Sarah learned along the way (including the big mistake she made with her CPA), and the importance of doing thorough due diligence on your buyer. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3GDNeRG Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
We were thrilled to hold eCommerceFuel Live at Chesapeake Bay, a place rich in history and great food. This year was especially unique, as it was the first large live event we have held since the beginning of the pandemic, and coming back together as a community was very rewarding. In this episode, we will be reviewing everything that happened during eCF Live. To help us discuss this is Bill D'Alessandro, CEO of Elements Brands. Listen in as Bill and I share how this year's event was different from the eCF Live events we have had in the past, as well as the importance of making time to do the things that make you happy. You will learn where growing companies often fail, how to build a rich company culture, and how to effectively sort your social media accounts by engagement levels to create a sales funnel. You can find show notes and more information by clicking here: https://bit.ly/3xckqx1 Interested in our Private Community for 7-Figure Store Owners? Learn more here. Want to hear about new episodes and eCommerce news round-ups? Subscribe via email.
Today we welcome none other than Andrew Youderian to the show. Andrew is the founder of eCommerceFuel, a private, vetted community of 7+ figure ecommerce store owners. On this episode, Rabah and Andrew dive into the future of ecommerce - take out your notebooks; this is a good one. Follow Andrew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/youderian Join 4200+ top marketers and operators, and sub to Whale Maile for in-depth ecom marketing insights guidance every week - https://www.getrevue.co/profile/triplewhale Checkout out Triple Whale - https://trytriplewhale.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/trytriplewhale/message
Andrew Youderian is the Founder of eCommerceFuel, a fantastic community of ecommerce entrepreneurs, operators, and experts helping each other scale and grow in businesses and build deeper relationships. After spending a few years in the investment banking world, Andrew left his job to start his first ecommerce business. Since then, he's sold numerous stores that have collectively generated millions of dollars. He has experience bootstrapping, exiting companies, and building unique communities along the way. Andrew also hosts the eCommerceFuel Podcast. In this episode… As we continue to embrace a cookieless world and as customers take back control of their data, paid ads are becoming less profitable for ecommerce brands. The question in the hearts of many ecommerce entrepreneurs is, what next? And with the high level of competition in the space, how should ecommerce brands approach marketing? One of the biggest mistakes made is investing in paid ads without finding ways to get zero-party data. The second mistake is to ignore old-fashioned referrals and the communities that drive them. What other moves should you avoid to grow your ecommerce brand? In this episode of the eCommerce Profits Podcast, Joshua Chin talks with the Founder of eCommerceFuel, Andrew Youderian. They discuss how marketing in the ecommerce space is evolving in a cookieless world, the value of building a community, growth channels to explore in the coming days, and lots more.
Andrew Youderian is the founder of eCommerceFuel.comLinks MentionedTheBKShow.com — Find All Episode Notes HereFollow Andrew Youderian on TwittereCommerceFuel.comLearnWithEzra.com — Grab a ticket to Smart Traffic Live through my partner link Punchline Copy — My favorite copywriterJoin The BK Show's newsletter Follow Ben on TwitterFollow The BK Show on FacebookFollow The BK Show on InstagramSubscribe to The BK Show YouTube ChannelNever miss an episodeSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsJoin The BK Show's newsletterHelp the showLeave a reviewSubscribe wherever you get your podcastsWhat's Ben up to?Follow Ben on InstagramFollow Ben on TwitterApply to work with Ben to grow your business.
Joe Cochran had a rough start in life, but eventually came out on top. Through perseverance and a hard struggle, he finally has a success story. Tune in to hear our chat with Joe and learn about his process, his early struggles, and why he finally decided to sell his company. Topics: The emotional rollercoaster of being an entrepreneur. His early struggles. Launching his business with $5000 in credit. Sacrifices Joe had to make to keep his business afloat. Siphoning vs. reinvesting. How he ran his initial campaign. Which accounting resources he used on a tight budget. His competitive nature and how it drives him. Making the decision to sell. Transcription: Mark: Joe, we've had the opportunity to work with some pretty amazing entrepreneurs over the years and I never get tired of hearing about these success stories, especially for people that have gone through some of the dark periods of life that come out through the end. And often we get to be a part of the process when that reclamation, that coming back from some difficult times in their life comes to a head and comes to that real big victory point of an incredible exit. Joe Cochran is one of these stories. Joe: Yeah, he had his first child two days after his 17th birthday. I think that changes somebody's life forever. He didn't quit. He stayed in high school and he says his girlfriend at the time does his homework, helped him cheat to graduate. Mark: His girlfriend helped him cheat? Joe: Doing his homework, yeah, she did his homework. He helped in graduate high school. Mark: True love, I love it. Joe: Yeah, he worked full time. He just got out and hustled and went through some dark times after that in terms of business with his father, major debts, substance abuse, and came out the other end of just fighting and launched an Amazon business in 2016 when he had about $40,000 in debt. He thought through it and came out the other side in January of 2020 with a seven-figure exit. And as he said at the beginning the podcast interview, he said he felt like an incredible burden was lifted off his shoulders. So it's a great story; great success story. A lot of golden nuggets in there throughout the whole interview that I did with him and just one of these inspiring people that you just got to listen to the whole thing. Joe V.: Hey, folks. Joe Valley, here from Quiet Light Brokerage, and today we've got another episode of Incredible Exits. This one is with Joe Cochran. Joe and I've been working together for I think I want to say, a couple of years Joe, in the process of planning your eventual exit or as I like to call it, training. You came to me as a referral from our good friend Mike Jackness in EcomCrew and I think you were living in one state when we first chatted and eventually moved to another. And then I think we closed the transaction in January of 2020 is that right? Joe C.: That's correct. Joe V.: All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. The first question I have for you; normally, by the way, I ask people to introduce themselves and give a little background but I want to actually just know how you felt when you finally closed this transaction. I shouldn't say finally because you weren't under LOI by the time we listed it to the time we sold it was 45, 60 days something like that. How did it feel? I don't want to know about the money and that kind of zeroes and this is a seven-figure exit but how did it feel when you finally had the money hit your account and you knew that this was real and the transaction was closing and assets were transferred? Joe C.: Yeah. So, I mean, that was kind of a roller coaster, to be honest. I think since I started the business all through the business to selling the business and even shortly after selling the business, emotional roller coaster. I just think as an entrepreneur, it's probably one of the hardest things to do is manage your own feelings and emotions around your business and what's going on. I would say the second that I signed the paperwork, it felt like the weight of the world kind of lifted off my shoulders because a big part of my why was always to be able to provide for my family and kind of have a security if you will. That was something that is always very important to my wife and I as far as something that we strive for. It's just having financial security and things like that so it was definitely that life-changing feeling. But shortly after, other fears and worries crept in. It was short-lived, but it did feel great. Joe V.: Yeah, life of an entrepreneur, it's not necessarily just because you sold the business and you've got some money in the bank that you don't stressing about other things. It is what it is. So your big why was to be able to provide for your family; we didn't talk about this. You haven't given me permission and cut if we have to but your story is interesting. You ended up becoming a dad while in high school if I recall correctly. Is that right? Joe C.: Yeah, I got my high school sweetheart pregnant when I was 16 and had my son a couple of days after my 17th birthday. Joe V.: Wow. And you finished high school, kept working, provided for your newborn family at the age of 17. You were working and going high school at the same time, right? Joe C.: Yeah. I basically cheated my way through high school at that point because I was working 30 to 40 hours a week going to school as little as possible. My girlfriend at the time was doing my homework for me, helping me through. And it was important to my family that I finished school and it wasn't as important to me that I do, but just felt like I needed to finish that. That was my junior year when my son was born. Joe V.: How many years ago was that, Joe? Joe C.: Well, I was 17 when he was born. I'm 41 now. Joe V.: Okay. Joe C.: I don't try to do math in public. Joe V.: When I do I usually get around but I would say 23, 24 years-ish. Joe C.: Yeah. Joe V.: So you went from… Joe C.: It's a bit easier this way, how old is my son? He's 24. Joe V.: I was hoping you were going to just go there. Yeah. We're doing math instead. So you've gone from a situation that is the worst fear of parents that you're becoming a dad a couple of days after your 17th birthday to 23, 24 years later, you're having a seven-figure exit of your own business. The weight of the world lifted off your shoulders. You're able to provide for your family, which is very, very important; a great success story. Let's talk about your path to it. I'm going to shorten it a little bit because we just talked about that and I know that you went to work into sales and eventually with your dad in the hot tub parts business, pool parts business, and eventually exited that. But then you started this brand that you built primarily as an Amazon business. Talk about how you came up with the idea of selling on Amazon and building your brand and what that path was like a little bit. Joe C.: So when I was working for my dad, we started to get into the Amazon business model in his business probably around 2009, 2010. Somewhere in there we dabbled, didn't really jump into it seriously until closer to the end of that business cycle. But we had kind of been playing with ideas. We started our own brand at one point in the fireplace and arts niche. And so I had some experience there, but I just wasn't ever passionate about any of the products my dad and I were selling. I was passionate about business. I was just a student of business. I studied all the time at marketing, sales, e-commerce in general and so when I realized that he was going to sell the business and I was essentially going to be out of work and need to define and figure out an income, I started really focusing on what kind of business would be right for me? If I was going to start my own thing what would be the best model? How can I get into it inexpensive, because I didn't have much money, matter of fact I have a pile of debt. And it just ticked all the boxes for being I want to work from home, start small and scale and potentially exit in a large exit. So I wanted kind of all those things; I needed all of those things and it just ticked all the boxes for me. Joe V.: And you're 41 now, how old were you when you started the business? I'm going to make you do math again. Joe C.: So I started a business in 2016 so it's been like four years ago. Joe V.: Four years ago. Okay, and how much money did you have when you launched the business in terms of cash? I know that you had a pile of debt at the time, but how much money did you pull together to make your first order? Joe C.: So I had about $5,000 on credit card that was available. Joe V.: You did it with $5,000, you had a pile of debt and you took $5,000 on a credit card to launch this business and four years later, you got a seven-figure exit. Am I doing this right? Joe C.: Yeah. Joe V.: Wow, incredible. Joe C.: I've had about $40,000 in debt personally. We have just started making progress with paying off credit cards and stuff because we started doing Air B&B and kind of renting out bedrooms in a house that we were renting. And so by doing that, we had started to make some progress in paying off our debt and like any good entrepreneur person as soon as I saw the light at the end of the tunnel I decided I'd took on more debt and started our business. Joe V.: Was it a success out of the gate; did you immediately start selling and say oh boy now I've got an inventory problem, I've got to buy more and keep up? Joe C.: Yeah, so I have the; I don't know what to call it, good luck also good sense that I did develop a product that really spoke to my target market. That was kind of easy for me at the time because I was my target market. And so I simply created the solution that I thought was amazing. When I showed it to my friends and family, they all kind of agreed that it was amazing. And so it was kind of like I knew the product was great and I knew how to create the offer because, again, I was the target market. So I literally was able to craft a story that really hit home with my ideal customer. And so when I launched, it was hockey stick growth. I mean, in the first six months we broke a million dollars in revenue. Joe V.: In the first six months, incredible. For those listening on audio, we decided not to mention the brand or the buyer and things of this nature just for confidentiality purposes. But if you want a hint, go to YouTube and watch the video or go to I think it's Quiet Light Academy on YouTube or go to the Quiet Light website ant take a look at our podcast. There's a hint in the background; a big giant silver one way back there somewhere in the video at Joe's home office there. Let's talk about the how; okay, you had hockey puck growth, you said in the first six months you did a million dollars in revenue by creating a product that solves your own problem in a niche that you knew very, very well. How did you get to know and learn about Amazon; what resources did you utilize to become that person that knew how to create the right photos or videos or ads and things of that nature? Joe C.: I basically do what I've always done, which is tried to cheat. And at first, I bought several courses, which kind of worked. Yeah, so the first course I really bought was the Amazing Selling Machine. And then for a short time, I decided I was going to create an information product and I started thinking about doing uninvolved course on e-commerce because of course, that's what I had experience in for the previous 12 years. I came across guys like Andrew Youderian from eComFuel. I came across as Ezra Firestone from Smart Marketer, and somewhere in there, I think in eComFuel I was put in a Mastermind with Mike Jackness and a couple of other guys. And so that was sort of my network and I bought all their products and I just dug in and followed and studied everything I could. Joe V.: So for those listening a lot of times from the thousands of entrepreneurs I've talked to that sell physical products in e-commerce, they're part of a Mastermind group. And I think it's critically important that you connect with peers either on the free Facebook groups to start off with and understand that free means free and the quality of information that's shared there is not going to be as deep as a Mastermind group like eCommerceFuel or Ecom Crew or Smart Marketer or Ezra's Blue Ribbon Mastermind group but there's a lot of podcasts that you can listen to as well. Mike, at the time, did he have Ecom Crew podcast, or is that something new since you met him in 2016 and connected with him in ECF, which is eComFuel? Joe C.: Yeah, so that was new for him. He was starting to work on the project but didn't have the podcast yet and it was just kind of an idea in the background that they're working on. Mike was still very involved in his e-commerce business or businesses at the time. Joe V.: Okay, cash flow; what I see is when you've got a hockey puck growth, there's always a cash flow problem. How did you manage to keep up with the inventory needs, which is a cash flow drain on the business? Joe C.: Yeah. So my first order I think was $1,500. I placed that order. Well, when I received that order and launched the product, I did a really dumb thing and went on vacation to my parent's house here in Florida, which I now own and in right now. But so I came here and within the first couple of days of launch, I could see that I was going to run out of inventory very quickly. So I placed my second order for $1,500 now the vacation was five days and that happened on day one when I got here. So like I literally launched the product day two or day three after launch I came here. I stayed here for five days and by the end of that week I had to place a second; a third order. So like I was here on day one when I realized I was going to have to place another order and by day five I realized that wasn't going to cover it and I'm going to have to place another order and I didn't have any money. The first call to my wife for that first follow up order was like hey dear I know we just opened this new credit card for this business and we just spent 1,500 bucks but I think it's going to work. We need to place another order, send me another 1,500 bucks. And she was like yeah do whatever you think. Joe V.: Awesome. Joe C.: And I'm behind you, so cool. So then by Friday when it was time to come home and I realized this isn't going to be enough, I had to make that call again. And I said, hey, you know… Joe V.: Wait a minute; hold on, for all those people listening in the audience I want to just ask a question that they're asking. You're on vacation in Florida without your wife. Joe C.: Yeah. Joe V.: Why? Joe C.: Well, it was just to see my family. My mom and dad were here and we were both working and we've had this kind of Air B&B business at the house. We have two dogs and it's just difficult for us to both leave at the same time. She couldn't get the time off work. I wasn't working at the time. Essentially I have my own business so it was just yeah say hi to Mom and Dad, hangout for a few days, go fishing the whole time. Joe V.: Fair enough. Joe C.: She wasn't that into it anyway. Joe V.: All right so that third order, what did you do? Joe C.: That third order I was like, hey, the last order is not going to be enough. We've got to place another order and we're going to have to like triple down. We're going to need to spend like five grand on this next order and we don't have it. So can you call the credit card company and see if you can get our limit raised? And she did. And she got it raised to like 10,000 and so I was able to place that third order; so really having no money coming back in yet. I mean, we're starting to make sales. I don't think I ever got my first payout at this point, though because it's bi-weekly from Amazon. So I went from 1,500 to 7,000, $8,000 in and now I'm thinking, well, I don't know how I'm going to place the next order. And so by this point, I had been communicating a lot with my manufacturer. I placed three orders now and they could see that my orders were growing and so I just called them and I said, look I need to place bigger orders but I'm going to need some sort of terms. I can't operate without terms. You told me that I had to place a few orders before we could talk about that and I will say I planted that seed from day one. So I planned on the product being successful. I didn't just hold and not do anything. So from the very first interaction with the supplier, I asked for terms and they said no. And I said, okay, that's fair but what do I have to do to get terms? And they said, well, you need to place a few more orders, we need to be comfortable with each other and I said, perfect, fine, no problem. So it was a natural process at that point. I placed three orders. Yeah, it was a short period but I placed three orders. I showed that I was serious and so I said, look, I'm going to need new terms or I'm going to have to find another supplier and it really was kind of that. I don't want to be threatening but it was kind of like hey if you're not going to give me terms, I'm going to go somewhere else. And so they came back and gave me 30-day terms. Joe V.: So you were able to actually… Joe C.: Yeah, so it was kind of ridiculous, actually. What they are giving me was 30-day terms and I was able to renegotiate and say, yes, 30 days from the day I received the product. Joe V.: That solves a big cash flow problem right there. Joe C.: Huge. Because most places will give you 30-day terms, but it's from when they shipped the product. Joe V.: Right. Joe C.: So I wanted it from when I received it. And I wanted it from when I received the product in full. And I say that because I was doing air shipping so I would receive shipments in bunches. So I might place one big order and I might receive 10 shipments over two weeks before I get the complete order. So I kind of knew that I was working the system a little bit, but they were happy. I was paying on time and so we were able to kind of grow using that structure. But it was only about a month later before we got into another big cash crunch because the size of the orders were growing, the volume was growing, all the money was going back and inventory as you know and it was to a point where 30 days wasn't enough. I needed to buy more than 30 days' supply to cover everything and it was like round two of the next challenge as the business grew… Joe V.: How did you solve that? Was it just living off your wife's paycheck, doing Air B&B, and scraping dollars together and living a conservative financial life at home? How did you do it? Joe C.: Yeah so I have reached out to friends and family. I asked for money. Everybody told me no. I start reaching out to other investors, people that I knew that would maybe do hard money loans. All of them that agreed, which was I think, one or two said they'd do it but they wanted 50% of the business which I wasn't willing to give up any percentage of the business. And so I just kind of scrambled. I think at one point I sold my car and we just continued to scrounge and scrape. Joe V.: I love that. I love that you sold your car; that you got to do whatever you got to do to feed the business and feed that cash flow problem. That is brilliant. How long was it, Joe, before you were able to take any money out of the business for yourself or did you in that three or four year period? Joe C.: I did and probably looking back, it was one of the biggest mistakes I made. It was siphoning money from this company versus reinvesting. I think we could have been talking about a much larger exit had I reinvested versus taking the money but the bottom line is I needed the money. And my goal still was the hardest thing. So hindsight in 2020 that's fine but at the time my goal was financial security and not to get too far into the story but when my dad sold his business and when we had to basically move on from there, we sort of lost everything. We built our dream home. We had all the toys. Of course like good Americans we had overextended ourselves as well and gone into a bunch of debt to have all of that stuff. But when he said he was selling his business, there were no job opportunities in that area that we lived. We lived at a small northern Michigan town, there were no jobs, and I knew we were going to have to move. So we sold the house. We sold everything we had essentially. We packed up what was left into a moving van and we moved to Raleigh, North Carolina, without having any clue what was in Raleigh other than my wife had lined up a job with one of those suppliers that we had bought from the last business. So we were sort of starting over, but we had sort of lost everything and to be completely honest it wasn't the first time I lost everything. It was the second time that I completely lost everything and went into pretty significant debt so it was a big driver for me; it was to get financially free. And to me at that point, I was also following a guy named Dave Ramsey, I was following his debt snowball and so my number one focus was get out of debt. And so I was pulling money out of the business to pay off cars. I didn't buy myself another car until I could pay cash for one. I didn't buy a house until I could a big down payment down because we were renting at the time. When we bought a house, we bought a five-bedroom house for me and my wife and we rented out three bedrooms. And so we just kind of continued that path of doing whatever we have to do and it was super uncomfortable living with people really sucks and it's really tough on a marriage. And running a business is tough but you just keep working and finding your way through it. Joe V.: Now I understand why the feeling; and this is why I ask about how it felt when you sold the business when it's finally done and you said the weight of the world was lifted off your shoulder because you've gone into debt, the wrong way two times and you've got Air B&B to strangers coming to your house and taking up three bedrooms while trying to run a business and survive a marriage as well. So congratulations on fighting through it all and doing whatever it takes to succeed because that's the bottom line. You know I'm mentoring a couple of entrepreneurs from a local college now and they're 21 and 22 years old. And one of the conversations I had recently was that they need to file for a business and incorporate and one said it's $300 and they don't actually have the money for that and I'm like suck it up. Look around your run and sell something. You can scrape together $300. You're not going to ever become an entrepreneur if you can't do what you did, which is anything you have to do to survive and sell your car and credit card loans and whatever it takes to do it. And you did smart; you had a business that was already taking off so that's good. I want to talk about two things. I want to talk about the first few days of how you put together a launch and how you learned to do that and launched the business but I also want to talk about your goal. So let's talk about the launch first. What marketing techniques did you use or put together and what would you recommend to others in order to put that initial campaign together? Did you spend money on advertising, did you just do organic traffic, did you do outside traffic; what did you do? Joe C.: Yeah. So it wasn't what I would consider very sophisticated. I was, again, kind of fortunate that the market that I went into was not highly competitive. The listings that I was competing against were very poorly created in Amazon so my listing from day one just crushed everybody. And it was just before this particular market got a lot of competition. As a matter of fact, my product is what launched the competition in this category and now there are thousands of competitors that are highly optimized and it's very challenging to get in to. But when I first started it was very easy to beat all of the competitors in that space. And so all I really did was run ads. I ran some Facebook ads, but mostly it was just Amazon ads. Joe V.: Facebook ads to the Amazon store or to a specific keyword or something like that? Joe C.: Yeah, mostly Facebook ads went to my own website. I did have a Shopify store and I had some Google ads that were going directly to my Amazon page and I had the Amazon ad platform and Amazon ad platform was the big driver. The Google ads did a little bit. Number one, what they really did, though, is they helped the page get a ranking for the keywords that I was targeting. Joe V.: Get ranked on Amazon or in Google? Joe C.: In Google. So after we launched that product, it was maybe two months until our Amazon listing was the number one listing for our target keyword. Joe V.: I got you. Joe C.: So there were strategies like that that I learned so that was conscious. I didn't do anything super sophisticated with the launch, though. I didn't have an audience. I didn't build an audience beforehand. All things that I think are necessities now with the competition being so much higher than it was then. Joe V.: Yeah. Joe C.: But yeah, at the time it was not a super sophisticated launch. Essentially what drove the revenue was the Amazon ads in their network just going direct to my page. Joe V.: And in a not necessarily highly competitive space at the time; it is now because you created the niche or the better niche as you will. All right, let's talk about your goal. You and I, I want to say we first chatted in 2018 and you were living not in Raleigh at that time, but you were living on the coast of North Carolina. How important is it in your opinion for an entrepreneur to learn about again, get trained on what it takes to sell your business; that exit path, and to set goals? How important was it for you and how important is it on the priority list of things to do for entrepreneurs, in your opinion? Joe C.: Yeah, so I think the best time to think about when you're going to sell your business is the day you start planning to launch a business. And the second-best time to do that is right now if you haven't done that. So the earlier you can start the better. And a lot of people, in the beginning, it's difficult because you have so many other fears; fears that the business isn't going to be successful, I'm going to launch it, and I'm going to get traffic and so many other things in your mind that's taking up space. It's hard to think about how I am going to sell this business down the road but you don't have to put a lot of time in the beginning, you just have to know that eventually, that's where you want to go. And so when you know that and if you know how to structure that business for sale then you're just going to be starting off on a much better place. So I got the privilege of watching my dad go through a sale and I did get to listen to him complain about all the things that were going on with the sale like oh we had to clean up the books. And that took three months to get the books cleaned before they can even move forward with the due diligence properly. And there were so many aspects that were kind of snags for him to actually get that exit. So I kind of have the benefit of watching what he went through and realized day one, I need a CPA. I need somebody who's going to watch this money because I know I'm not organized enough to do it. So literally, I launched the business within the first couple of weeks when I saw I was going to be a successful product I hired a CPA. Could I afford to? Not really but I knew I had to do and I know I really couldn't afford much. Joe V.: What did the CPA do for you? Because I always say the bookkeeper manages your books on a monthly basis, the CPA files your taxes. In this situation what did the CPA do for you? Joe C.: Yes, so the CPA did a combination. My wife ended up eventually taking over the books when she was able to leave her job. Joe V.: Did you use QuickBooks or Xero? Joe C.: QuickBooks. Joe V.: Okay. Joe C.: Yeah, and we kept pretty simple. So it was the CPA was more important of just setting up QuickBooks for me so when they charged the fee it was ridiculously cheap, really. They charged a fee to just set up QuickBooks and then once it was set up, my wife could do the bookkeeping. So they weren't expensive in the beginning. I still couldn't afford them but it wasn't expensive. And so I remember like literally at that time I was like whoa they're going to charge me 50 bucks a month or something. I don't know if this is a good idea we can't afford that. We have to go elsewhere when I say we can't afford it. That was my mindset, my frame of mind. But I was happy I did it. It helped us get started on the right foot. The QuickBooks was really pretty clean from day one. The business was not complex anyways so it was I think a good move. But the more complex you are the more important that is. And just those small things like planning to be successful is hard when you're not successful yet. But it certainly, I think in my case, paid off to start that way. So a CPA or a bookkeeper or somebody that can help you if you're not good with it was important. If you're great with it, you can do it all yourself. That's fine. But you're going to be doing many other things you got to figure out where it makes sense to spend your time. Joe V.: Yeah, I think it's really important to do that bookkeeping part because like you say it snags at the end. If you wake up one day and decide, okay I'm ready I want to sell my business but you haven't done your bookkeeping, guess what? You're not ready to sell your business. You've got to do that bookkeeping and get it done right in order to exit the business. Joe C.: You might be ready to sell but your business isn't. Joe V.: Right. Yeah, so if you've got a seven-figure business, even if it's six figures, if it's only $100,000, there's someone out there in the world that has worked very hard to save $100,000 and they are going to buy your business. They're not simply going to look at your merchant processing account or your seller account and say okay, yeah, here's the money. You really need to have your financials together; vendor invoices, cost of goods sold, all of this stuff, cost of goods sold on an accrual basis people, really, really important stuff that has to be done in order to exit without those snags. You can always sell, but you're going to be able to sell for more if you do what you did which is 18, 24 months in advance we started having conversations. And each time the value kept going up that we had conversations. Let's talk about that for a minute because I always say let's reverse engineer your path to success. Set a financial goal and a happiness goal; happiness goals and setting financial goals. Thank you, David Wood, for the happiness goal. I think it's really important. Yours, Joe, was a huge burden off your back that made you happy and you go fishing now and enjoy it without thinking about the debt that you had because you don't have any. So happiness goal, financial goal, and then reverse engineer a path to that. Sometimes it's 12 months, sometimes it's 24. You can't do that successfully without knowing the value of your business today. You can't do that without having good financials. So it all is interwoven together. But your financial goal, if I recall, moved. You set that goal and then you moved that goalpost a little higher or further down the road. Can you talk about that path? Because you had I think you said $40,000 in debt when you started this business and then you took more debt out eventually. Did you pay off your debt while the business is growing and that's the money maybe you shouldn't have taken out because you followed Dave Ramsey's program, which I think is brilliant too, by the way, and then what was your mental process for setting that exit financial goal and once the value of the business was there did we list it or did you move that goalpost further down the road? I honestly don't recall the details. Joe C.: Yeah. So starting the business, the goal was man this would be cool if I could pay a car payment or something like that and we got to that part pretty quickly. And then, of course, again, you move the goalposts constantly, right? So, man, it'd be cool if we could make a house payment. And then it became, man, it'd be cool if we could pay these cars off and pay off our credit cards and boy it'd be really cool if we could pay off our mortgage and over that first two-year span, we accomplished that. And so when I started talking to you, I don't think we can quite pay off our mortgage yet but we were debt-free otherwise. We were just working on our mortgage and that is the money that I was pulling out of the business. And so when I started talking to you and started talking about exit, it was actually during the time that we had had a big hiccup in the business, a big stumbling point and I was frustrated and I just wanted to be done and I didn't know how I was going to do it. But after speaking with Mike first, he recommended I speak with you. And so that was kind of our first introduction and you stomped on my heart. You said you're not ready. Your business is in a very bad position right now. Joe V.: It must have been trending down at the time. Joe C.: It was trending way down. This was essentially right when the mass competition came on board. I went from having no competitors to one or two to hundreds. And I've come to find out a big part of the reason for that is that Amazing Selling Machine used my product as an example in their course. Joe V.: Oh wow. Joe C.: And I reached out to them and said, hey, what the hell, guys? You know I'm one of your students, right? And they were like, oh, we didn't have any idea you were a student of ours, sorry, we won't do that in future releases but what's done is done, you know. And so they're like the biggest Amazon selling training course out there. Joe V.: Yeah. Joe C.: Literally overnight we just had hundreds of people copy our product and hit Amazon. And the business started to tank as far as our revenues it really started to go down. I was burned out at this point. I was frustrated. And I was hopeful for whatever reason, I was going to be able to still sell for some big number. And you were like no, it's not going to happen. If you sell right now, you're going to give it to somebody. Joe V.: Yeah. Joe C.: What you told me was you'd be better running it into the ground then you're just not going to get what you want for yourself. Joe V.: That's right. Take as much money out as you can and let it inaudible[00:38:34.4] Yeah, those are hard conversations when I'm telling you that, being relentlessly honest as we say at Quiet Light and not tell you what you want to hear. Joe C.: But you know what if someone was my, I guess, drive that was what I needed to hear because I realized again if I wanted to hit my goals of having that financial security, I couldn't just give up. And so that turned me around. That turned me from being down and being depressed to being pissed off and realizing you know what, you've gotten this far, you can beat these guys that are just starting and you've got two years off. Figure it out, quit worrying about what everybody else is doing, and figure out how you can win. And so, I mean, it was literally I think we hung up the phone and that shift in my mindset happened and I just went right to work on how am I going to fix this, how am I going to beat these guys? I'm very competitive. I played hockey my whole life growing up. I'm just super competitive. So when that shift happened from kind of loser to, hey figure it out; yeah, we were able to turn it around. And so it took about six months to get back to that number one position and back to where the revenue was decent. That took about another six months before we were where I felt we should be in terms of the revenue. And to your credit, you reached out every quarter or so to check in on me and that was always super helpful because it just reminded me of the goal. And so sometimes it's just so easy to get caught up in everything that's going on in your business that it was great to feel like I had some people in my core. Mike was another one that I could reach out to at any time and he would jump on a call and talk me off a ledge or give me some input. So having those resources to be able to reach out to when things aren't going well is just; I don't know how else to put it, it's just super valuable. Yeah, so it took about a full year to really; it took six months to basically turn things around, it took another six months to gain back what we had lost in sales and get back to where it felt like we could potentially exit. Then we had another call and you said okay, good, now you need to run it for another year. Because I was like oh great, we're back, now we can sell it and you're like hey man, you need a trailing 12 months at this level if you really want to sell it. So you crushed my heart again. Joe V.: I am sorry about that. Joe C.: But the reality was; no, it's fine because things were good. And so I was up and I was just like oh yeah okay, fine. I can run it for another year. Maybe I can even grow it a little bit. So that's what we really focused on and pushed through. And so you started that question really with what kind of got you there and what made the decision to actually sell? And that was literally hitting like the 10 month part period where for 10 months nothing went well. That's literally what made me realize we need to list this in because you told me, hey, you need a trailing 12 months of solid numbers and then you're good. At 10 months I was like, holy crap we're two months away from that. There's nothing in the forefront that makes me believe that we won't hit that. Let's call Joe. So I reached out to you and boy, what an interesting time to make that decision, right? Because look what happened just a few months later. Joe V.: Yeah, we closed; we're recording today on April 13th, 2020 folks and we ended up listing the business in mid-November, headed under LOI within two or three weeks, chose to close in January for tax purposes. Good for you, Joe, because you had moved to Florida, partial tax year down there, no taxes on state level and then, a grace period of another 15 months before you had to pay your taxes for the sale. Yeah, and then COVID hit. So I think in your niche sales probably went up though but still, the world is incredibly unstable and maybe better of peace of mind that you sold versus holding on. There are a lot of folks that waited and now have to wait even longer to see relatives come back. It's a tough situation all around. Joe C.: And you know it doesn't matter that your business does well in these times because if you can't get inventory or you can't get inventory on Amazon, you're still not making sales so there are so many challenges. And the other challenge is that I lived with; lived and breathed every day, day and night I mean, so that decision to sell was based on a lot of things. But yeah, it was definitely the right time and it worked out well for me and it gave me the freedom to now look back and say okay, what did I do, what made that successful, how can I repeat that in my next business, and how can I do it even better maybe? For me better means a better lifestyle. I don't want to do it again and work the way that I worked and worry the way that I worried before. And surprisingly when you have some money in the bank, a lot of those worries do go away. A lot of things do get easier and so now the big thing is make sure you don't make a big, stupid mistake because you've got money to spend and go about it like a clean start up again and remember what it takes to do that and then start from that. Joe V.: Great advice all around, I love your story, Joe. What is your next adventure, any clues or hints that you can give us? Because if anybody out there is in the audience that might have an interest in it or can contribute to it in any way maybe they'll reach out. Joe C.: Yeah. So what I kind of took away from my last business is that being passionate about the products for me is important. Some people are just passionate about business and so they don't have to really be passionate about the product so much. In my last business, I was passionate about the business, but I was also passionate about the product. And even more importantly, and this is just through self-reflection that I kind of realized recently I was passionate about my customer and I was passionate about that customer getting success. And so for me, it was realizing that it's not just the business, it's not just the product, and it's not just the customer. It was kind of a combination of those three things that I think helped push me through the hard times. Because there were so many more ups and downs that we didn't even get into that if you're not passionate about something within that, you're going to struggle. And for me, if I wasn't passionate about all three of those things, I might have faltered. So as you said I'm a fisherman and I'm looking in that market and seeing where I can contribute my value. And so I just registered a new trademark last week and we're starting on working on those offers and seeing where we can beat the competition. Joe V.: Excellent. Well, I look forward to having you back on the podcast and telling that story of your next exit although you've just started; you've just begun. Thanks for sharing your story, Joe. It's amazing going from being a dad at the age of 17, 17 in two days, if you will, to a seven-figure exit 24 years later, supporting your family and getting a big burden off your back and living debt-free. Congratulations. It's been a privilege working with you and an honor to know you. I look forward to getting out of Florida and maybe go fishing with you someday personally. Joe C.: Absolutely. Well, I appreciate all your help as well and I look forward to being back. Joe V.: All right man, talk to you soon. Resources:Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com
One of the biggest challenges we face as business brokers is getting sellers to understand that we too are entrepreneurs. Getting people to do a valuation is one of the biggest hurdles because many think that just staying afloat is the goal, and the rest will come later. Sometimes later is too late. Today Joe and Mark are back sharing how to get valuation right. At Quiet Light we work hard to educate and help people find the growth paths that will get them the most value for their business in the event of a sale. We have a ton of experience in giving valuations and can guide current and future sellers to profit. When you build a great business with buyers in mind it will make the transfer so much easier. Episode Highlights: Why a business owner should plan an exit strategy early in the business building process. The benefits and tradeoffs of entrepreneurship. How long in advance someone should plan their valuation. How much it costs to do a valuation. The threefold beneficiaries of the valuation. The importance of the end goal while building. How the valuation process benefits the potential buyer. Ways selling a cohesively built business creates valuable relationships. The level of detail that is essential to a full valuation. Accounting tips for a better valuation as you go. How the valuation process gives owners paths hidden profits. The other three of a successful business How the invisible fifth pillar makes a difference in the overall value of your business. Mark's quick wrap-up of the importance of a valuation. Transcription: Joe: Mark, one of the biggest challenges that we have as business brokers is conveying to people that we're entrepreneurs first. We've all been in their shoes. We're technically still entrepreneurs, right? We run Quiet Light Brokerage. And getting people to get beyond the mindset of running their business and saying I'm not ready to sell I don't to have a conversation about exiting to actually thinking well in advance of an exit is one of the biggest challenges and honestly, it's frustrating. It's frustrating for me and that's why we work so hard to educate and help and we do this podcast so we can get more people thinking well in advance of their exit. But I want to ask you as the original founder of Quiet Light Brokerage, the man with so many stories to tell, why in your opinion should somebody even plan their exit and give it thought well in advance of selling their business; what are the benefits? Mark: Boy that's a big question and I could actually give you a number of benefits and since you put me on the spot I don't have them in order in terms of what I would think would be the most important. But I'll start with this one which I think might not be the most important reason but I think it might be the most applicable for most people. It will resonate with most people and that's this, having a business that is valuable in an exit usually means you have a very valuable business to own. That's the number one reason in my opinion. So let me explain that and flesh that out a little bit. Obviously, if somebody is willing to buy your business for quite a bit of money; let's say they're willing to pay a four-time or five-time multiple, what they're seeing there as a business that is desirable to own, it is going to grow, and it's going to kick off a lot of cash in the future which obviously if you come to me or come to any entrepreneur and say do you want to own a business that doesn't require a ton of work has a lot of upsides and is consistently throwing off money most people would say yes, right? If we talk about the four pillars which we do so often here, do you want to own a business that has a low-risk profile and good growth prospects as the two first pillars? Yes, most of us want to. So the first reason I would say is when you go through the process of planning to sell even if you decide not to sell your business the result of it is that you have a business which is more stable, you know the growth paths available to your business, and you have great documentation in place for the business. So that'll be my number one reason right out the gate. And I don't know if you want to discuss that or I can give you a couple of others if you want. Joe: Yeah well let's first tell the folks listening that there is no special guest today it's you and me and we're going to talk through… Mark: I'm special Joe. You're special. I am special. Joe: Actually, I just gave you hosting privileges on this. Mark: So we're special. Joe: Technically I'm the guest and then I'm not special. Hey, we're not having anybody on today because Mark and I have a ton of experience at this. We do valuations every day so we want to talk about the reason to have one done and then what we do. We'll talk about what goes into it, and what we discovered, and what we learned along the way. So yes Mark if you want to talk first about that first example that you gave an elaborate on it a little bit we can do that and then go into some details on what it's like to get a valuation and what we do here at Quiet Light Brokerage when we put someone through the process. Mark: Oh sure. Actually, I do want to get to the other reason because these are the two that were kind of vying for my attention when you first asked that question. The second reason is that you just really don't know what the future holds. In the 14 years of doing this; at the time of this podcast almost 14 and a half years that I'm doing this, the number of clients that I've run into that are unprepared for the sale is exceedingly high and the number of clients that are unprepared who wish they had planned in advance is almost universal. So if you find that you're unprepared to sell you you've reached that point where you want to and you realize you aren't there yet there's often some sort of regret. It's kind of like thinking about the person who goes into the dentist for a root canal wishing that they had visited the dentist more frequently before. That inconvenience at the time would have paid off. Or for the person reaching retirement age wishing they had done more to plan their retirement. There are so many of these examples where especially entrepreneurs would get focused on the here and now today which is important. Obviously, we need to take care of that without the eye towards tomorrow that when tomorrow comes it often takes you by surprise. For entrepreneurs, we're in such a really cool spot. We have an opportunity to generate income that frankly people in the regular business world or regular careers don't have the opportunity to make. The tradeoff is some of that stability that you would get in the corporate office world and maybe some of the benefits and everything else that goes along with that. But for us, the benefit; the gain is the income potential but also what most people fail to see is the value of the asset that they are building in and of its own right and that alone can lead to early retirement, that can lead to being able to invest in much larger projects, that can be catapulted into something significantly bigger. But it does not happen if you build an asset which can't be sold. And so not only is it good to own a business like this because it follows basic business principles of having a low-risk profile and high growth opportunities and is usually very well documented which is a good thing; it ties into those two elements but it also gives you financial flexibility for the future and also career flexibility for the future as well. And if you don't do it the flip side is you can build yourself a prison which I'm sure you've seen a few people build prisons for themselves and their businesses. Joe: That's very, very hard. You want the independence and life of an entrepreneur and you've built yourself a business prison that you can't get out of and you just can't get ahead. But let's ask this; people ask me these questions all the time, we have a conversation about exits and valuations all the time so I mean I'd just grow you with a few here. Number one how long in advance should somebody do evaluation and plan their exit? We always hear I'm not ready to sell, why should I talk to you now? Mark: At least 12 months, right? I'm working with a client right now and they wanted to do evaluations, see where they're at financially and I said that's great send me your P&Ls and your balance sheets and they did which is awesome. I had a chance to review them and I had some further questions for them. Nothing came back so I bugged them about it and nothing came back. I finally bugged them again and they said well you know what we're doing is we're actually going through and we're eliminating some of these discretionary expenses, we're going to be doing this, that, the other thing and alarms are going off of my head because I see them taking some tax that they probably shouldn't be, right? Okay, I understand where you're going. For example one of the things that they're doing is they're cutting back on advertising spending in order to grow their bottom-line earnings. Well, let me ask you, Joe, what happens when you cut back on advertising? Joe: That's a big no-no. It's convergent graph lines, right? Discretionary earnings go up and your total revenue goes down. Mark: Right. Yeah. Nobody likes that alligator going to the left. Because if you see a graph where the revenue is going down or earning is going up we know that earning is going to go down in the future or to regain the momentum you have to outspend on advertising in most cases. To make it a more efficient one thing but that's on another. So how long; sorry, you asked me a question and you know me, I won't shut up. 12 months at a minimum? I would recommend 24, even 36 if you can just because if there's big changes that you want to make; let's say that you really want to explore that new product line, give yourself some runway to be able to plan that out. Joe: Okay, how much does it cost to do a valuation? Mark: Well it doesn't cost anything. Joe: Why? If it's free what's it worth. I don't understand. What's the business model? You're doing valuations for nothing. Mark: Oh you convinced me. If somebody wants to do a valuation of myself you're going to be paying a lot of money. So for us, it makes sense, right? I mean the number of times when I've started Quiet Light and was working with clients in the early days so many clients were being turned away because; not in saying I won't work with you but I would do the valuation. They say I'm ready to sell my business and I take a look at it and Joe you know the conversation. You and I had this conversation. And I looked at your business and I said okay right now it's worth X but Joe if you wait a little bit time, do some of the things that you're doing right now, actually, you're doing a lot of good things, just wait a little bit you're going to add this much value to your business. Other people it's a little bit different, right? It's hey you know what you have your name, you are a doctor and you are selling an information guide about how to take care of athlete's foot. And your name is plastered all over this. Well, guess what? That's not a transferable business because everyone's buying it based on your name. So I'm going to have trouble selling your business and if we do sell it it's going to come at a discount. But Mr. Doctor athlete's foot if you take your name off of this and show us that it can run for 12 months just as well if not better than it is right now without your name plastered all over it instead of getting maybe a 1½ multiple you're going to get like a 3.2 or 3.3. Joe: And who does that benefit? Mark: That benefits the client. Joe: There are three parties that it benefits. Mark: I'm being quizzed here. Joe: You are being quizzed. So it benefits the guy who's running the business, it benefits Quiet Light Brokerage which is a weird model, right? We do it for free folks but in the long run, it benefits us because you're going to have a more valuable business. But there's this third party that benefits as well and that third party… Mark: Is the buyer. Joe: Right. They might eventually become our clients as well too. So it's an odd model. As my mentor said, Joe, it seems like you guys are giving things away for free on a hope and a prayer that they'll come back to you someday. And I said exactly Walter that's what we're doing and it works very well. We're building relationships and building trust and we're helping first. And strangely the more people we help the more our business grows and the more valuable their businesses become and the more buyers buy great businesses. And it's an endless positive cycle and works very well. With that said I remember being at eCommerceFuel a few years ago and I came back; I sat at the bar with one of the presenters, I cannot pronounce his name. All I know is he swore a lot on stage but he was really good. He was really good and I had a beer with him afterwards and he said something like well I'd have a valuation done but honestly it's free I'd feel like I'm committed to you. I'm obligated to you because I didn't pay you. If I pay you I can just walk away. And it's an interesting viewpoint but we are all about relationships and we want to help. We want to get it done. And the more conversations we can have well in advance of a sale selfishly it makes it a lot easier for us when it comes to the time to list your business. I'm in the middle of a valuation right now where there are two brands in one seller account and there's a royalty arrangement and they have a coaching business and different LLCs. It's just a mess and the add-back schedule is getting deep and long. It's almost as long as the P&L itself which raises the antenna of the buyers. We don't want that. We want to have this clean business presentation as possible. So I'm with you 12, 24, 36 months in advance. Have the conversation. Get an education on the value and the process of maximizing the value of what is likely your most valuable asset. I was having a conversation with Mike Jackness a few weeks ago and we're doing a presentation it was actually at eCommerceFuel and he said the problem is you can't talk too much about exits and planning with these guys. They're doing all they can just to keep the wheels on the bus, to keep revenue going, and not run out of inventory, and do all these different things. I'm like yes, yes, yes, but when they have a clear vision of the value of the business and the view of an eventual exit when the wheel falls off and they've got to put it back on it's a lot easier because they still know where they're going. Otherwise, they're just wandering aimlessly trying not to run out of inventory; solving problems without an end goal in mind which is it's exhausting sometimes. Mark: Yeah and I want to comment on one aspect here about the idea of benefiting the buyer because if you're a business owner you might be thinking well I don't really care about the buyer at the end of the day. I mean I care but when you talk to entrepreneurs and sellers sometimes the approach they take is yeah I hope that the buyer does well with it but that's definitely a footnote compared to what they get out of the sale and understandably so. I'm not criticizing anyone who has that sort of attitude. But in your opinion, Joe why should the seller care about whether or not the buyer gets a good deal? Not a good deal as far as discounted but a good business that they can make a good return on investment on. Joe: Yeah that's actually not very complicated. It's when you do the right thing you will be rewarded. If you build a great business that checks all of the four pillar boxes, that really highlights all of the financial key metrics in a very, very positive way; and these are things that we do in the valuation folks when all of those things are you know 8s, 9s, 10s or a really solid green light guess what? That buyer is going to pay you more for the business. They're going to pay a higher multiple with better terms and it's going to be an easier transaction for you. Most people that are selling their businesses sometimes it comes down to okay like Quiet Light Brokerage we had 2½ offers for every listing that we put out there in 2019. So buyers are liking our listings, they're liking the way the packages are put together because we work with our clients for a long time and sellers sometimes have a choice. And sometimes they want to choose who is going to be easier in the transition afterwards. When you build a great business and you think of your eventual buyer in mind that transition is going to be easy because you've got SOPs in place, you've got a long communication with your broker advisor here at Quiet Light that's going to talk to you about all of those different things and making that transition easier because that's one of the four pillars; the transferability of the business and all the things that generate revenue for it. So now you're asking a short question and I'm giving you a long answer, it's the buyer will pay you more, as simple as that. Mark: The buyer will pay you more. I would also add on there that I think we are quick to dismiss the power of relationships and the people that you're going to meet when you go to sell your business. These are really important things. I had a situation; as you know I have another business besides Quiet Light Brokerage that doesn't take up a lot of my time but I ran into an issue the other day. It was a really complex difficult issue but the seller and I are friends at this point. We know each other pretty well and I hadn't run into this before. So I sent him an e-mail and said hey how have we dealt with this before he came back with a nice long response and insightful and everything else. It was a really good resource for me to have and he and I are on good terms because he's treated me fairly all along and built a business that was worth buying, to begin with. He's a valuable asset and if I ever want to do new things in this space he would be somebody that I would look to partner with because he's already skilled in this area. And when you're selling your business you're typically selling to somebody who is highly skilled and a successful entrepreneur in their own right. Isn't that a good person to have you in your Rolodex? I don't want to overemphasize this point and say this is the only reason you want to do it. I think what you listed Joe what you explained I think that is really where you want to put the focus and emphasis. But there's a whole host of ancillary benefits to creating a transaction that benefits yourself first, the broker who is going to be working with you and your team your partner with you, and also that buyer making sure that they have a business that they're going to be able to succeed with. Joe: Let's talk about what we actually do in evaluation. Mark: Sure. Joe: I'm going to kick this off. One of the first things that; I've got a call this afternoon at 4:00 today I'm doing an initial valuation call with a couple of very experienced entrepreneurs. The first thing we need are financials. So as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, if you're not able to run a profit loss statement with a monthly view going back more than 12 months we're not going to be able to do a full valuation because the full valuation does a year over year comparison. I'm going to look at January of 2020 versus January of 2019 and hopefully '18 and so on. And that's part of the financial key metrics in terms of where the top-line growth trends are, where the advertising cost as a percentage of revenue is, and where it's trending. Is it seasonal? We're going to talk about the timing of listing a business sale. Even if you're looking three or four years out we're going to talk about some of those things and we're going to see all of that with the detailed financials. Now today Walker wrapped up a long email chain between all of us where he had a client trying to do a valuation and get his business listed for sale and all he had were quarterly P&Ls. What's the problem in your view Mark with quarterly P&Ls versus monthly P&Ls? Mark: It's just the level of detail, right? I mean I can go backwards. I can take monthly P&Ls and go over to quarterly and I didn't comment; we had a discussion about this within the company and I didn't comment on it before everything resolved themselves. There are some businesses frankly that I think quarterlies worked really well for and probably better for; businesses with lumpy income benefit from having a little bit larger of a lens that we're looking through to even that out so we can see what the real trends are. But it's good to have that option to be able to go to monthly because you have more detail. What you pointed out Joe and I think it's a very good point is that when you get into the transaction and let's say a buyer places an offer we get past a quarter and let's say that we're month one into the quarter, most buyers before they close on a transaction want to know what the business has done over the past month and that time that they're doing their due diligence. Did it completely blow up while they were doing that final piece of due diligence? So they're going to ask for these updated numbers along the way as they're going through the process. Well if you have to wait two more months in order to close to be able to get reliable updated numbers that's just going to extend your timeline, introduce further risk that something happens and the buyer has to pull out and will disadvantage you in that way. And again the lack of detail when I'm doing analysis on a business for a valuation I love looking at the trends I like looking at year over year trends and really I start to look at the different months. And it's surprising the number of businesses that obviously November December get a spike are pretty high but let's say like home and garden stores often get a bump right around April or May so that'll be a second quarter. Maybe it spans two different quarters and you really get a sense for how does this business breathe over the course of a year. Right? Joe: So we're going to look in great detail at the financials. So we want you to run a profit and loss statement for me to Quick Books or Xero with a monthly view going back as far as you can up through the most recently reconciled month. If it's an e-commerce business we definitely want to get those P&Ls on an accrual basis. If we can't get them on accrual basis because you do cash accounting at some point we're going to have to find a way to flip the land cost of goods sold to accrual. Why? Because if a business is growing like crazy you're taking a lot of cash flow from the business and putting it right back into more and more inventory and that's going to depress your seller's discretionary earnings. And your business is a multiple of seller's discretionary earnings which is net income plus add-backs equals SDE. Mark: Yeah I want to talk about this accrual basis because I'm seeing this more and more. People are hearing us, they're hearing this message, and I'm seeing more and more books delivered to us on a false accrual basis is what I would call it. So here's the problem, bookkeepers don't like to do accrual basis accounting because it's hard. It takes more work. It takes more reporting on a monthly basis. They need to dig in, see what you sold, tie that back to the cost of goods sold, and record that. What I'm seeing pretty commonly here is accountants who make a year-end adjustments for the cost of goods sold. And so what you end up seeing is cost of goods sold seems kind of flat or kind of lumpy all throughout the year and then in December all of a sudden everythings out of whack. It doesn't match up. Speaking about the monthly one of the elements that a buyer is going to evaluate when looking at your business if you're selling physical products business or even if you're selling; you can do this if you're SaaS business as well it's just a cost of sales numbers out of the cost of goods sold. One of the key metrics we want to look at is your business getting more expensive to run; in other words, if you're consistently bringing in 5 million dollars of revenue what does it cost to generate that 5 million dollars of revenue? Are your products getting more expensive? Have you had a discount on those products over time? Are there periods during the year where you have to do one or the other? If you are in SaaS business are the cost of sales going up; your commissions that you're paying out the salespeople if you're on a commission sales basis. You can't get these numbers unless you're on accrual basis accounting. And a buyer, a smart buyer, if you want to sell to a smart buyer will want to see this information to see is this trending in the right direction and if not then we need to work this into the valuation; so monthly accrual. Joe: When this false accrual practice is done it's generally done by a CPA not a bookkeeper because they're doing some adjustments for the end of the year. Although just to be clear everyone if you've got an e-commerce business with physical products you are going to file your taxes on a cash basis. But when you're looking at the value of your business we need it on an accrual basis. You should have a CPA for your taxes. You should have an e-commerce bookkeeper for your daily, monthly, quarterly profit and loss statements. You should not in my opinion or view do that work yourself anymore if it takes you three or four hours a month you're worth more than the $400, $500, or $600 a month that a really highly qualified e-commerce bookkeeper is going to charge you. Mark: Yeah and we've made this point before but I'll make it again. It all depends on how you enter the information or your bookkeeper how they enter the information into whatever accounting software you're using. If you enter the information as an accrual basis you can flip to cash with a click of a button. It's very easy to do. Joe: Very easy, yeah. Mark: If you enter your information into your books on a cash basis you can't flip it to accrual. I mean you can, you're just going to get the wrong numbers, right? The software is stupid in that way. It's going to try and it's going to calculate it but you've entered the data wrong. So if you entered it in as accrual you can file in cash, that's totally fine. But for the sake of accuracy, you should be entering it or having your bookkeeper enter it in as accrual. And ask your bookkeeper this too, when I hired our bookkeeper I asked them; I sent them an interview, a written interview and I asked them to explain what accrual accounting was. I know what it is but I wanted to see could they explain it. And I was shocked at the number of foot keepers that couldn't explain it in a clear, concise way. Joe: It's not hard guys. Just we'll move beyond this make your eye bleed accounting part of the conversation. Look up cost of goods sold accrual formula. That's all it is. It's beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory on a monthly basis. That's ideal. But the point; one last point is that if you spend a million bucks a year on inventory and you're just doing adjustment or a guess we have to flip things sometimes to accrual. If you're off by 1½%, that's $15,000. If you're spending a million bucks on inventory, you're spending a lot of money; you may be doing 4 million 5 million dollars a year in revenue which probably means you're doing $750,000 in discretionary earnings. You might be at a four-time multiple at that point; four times the $15,000 that you got wrong on the inventory is $60,000 that you're not putting in your pocket in the sale of your business because you wouldn't spend $500 a month on an e-commerce bookkeeper. Or you're overcharging your buyer by that 15,000 times four because you guessed on the wrong side and things are going to fall apart or go off the rails in due diligence. So get it right, build trust, and move on. Okay, so first thing we need is a clean professionally done profit and loss statement with a monthly view. We're going to import that into the Quiet Light Brokerage import system. We're going to normalize the P&L. If you've ever looked at our listings folks you can see they look pretty much the same; our profit and loss statements. We do that because we see them in every shape, size, quantity, format, PDF, Excel. I mean it's crazy I'm surprised somebody hasn't mailed in a napkin at one point or another to Quiet Light. Mark: I had a notepad document once on a 20 million-plus business. Joe: We don't want our buyers to see that so we import it. We have an importing process where we're going to pull it in and we're going to analyze the key metrics; the financial key metrics that buyers over the last 14 years have told us this is what we look at. They're looking at top-line revenue trends. They're looking at gross profit, trends, shrinking or growing, and then they're looking at advertising cost as a percentage of total revenue and how it's trending. As Mark said earlier you could be spending a lot of money on advertising in the last six months to drive top-line revenue or the reverse and it all weaves together in a web, right? I've had a listing for sale last year and the seller said I handed my advertising off to a VA in late spring last year and I let him run it and five months in I realize things got out of hand and I pulled it back and took it over myself. We do a recorded interview just like we're doing right now on Zoom. We do it on video, we do it on audio, that's part of the package when a business is for sale. And that question may come up then it also may come up in the written client interview and then guess what it all weaves into the profit and loss statements and the financial key metrics when then you can go and look at the advertising trends going yeah look at that Joe was right in July, and August and September the numbers were up and advertising was 17% instead of the normalized 12% that it's been for the last three years. So you can see those different types of things. I had a situation just last week where I was looking at a profit loss statement where the ad spend went through the roof in December but revenue went down. That tells a story that he's struggling against competition and it's not really working out. He's spending a lot more money but sales are going down and lo and behold January and February are down as well. The numbers tell a story so the first thing we've got to get are the numbers, right Mark? Mark: Yeah. And I'm going to share something here Joe that I think was last week or maybe the week before, you actually did a valuation on Quiet Light brokerage. Joe: I did. Mark: Which was done not because we're looking for a buyer although if somebody wants to offer us 30 million dollars let's have a conversation. More importantly you wanted to look for areas of wasteful spending on our part and also key trends for the business as well. So let's think about this in terms of not selling our business, let's think about this in terms of business owners who want to run their business efficiently. Let's say you take the last three years' worth of your P&Ls and they're done on a true accrual basis and you take a look and you see that your gross profit margins have gone from 60% and they're dropping down to 52%. Now you might know why that's happening, you might know what's going on there but you can also identify that as a trend that if you were to correct that trend it's going to help the business. I worked with a client; I'm actually in the middle of doing a valuation for them and they keyed in on this on their own. They were very proud of this. They said look our gross profit margins are 42% right now but what we did over the course of the past year our revenue is down because of a very explainable reason but what we did is we found a product line. We found a method here to increase our gross margins from 42% upwards to 54%, 55%. We were able to test this on a singular product and it worked well and we plan to expand this. Well look what happened by looking at their margins and understanding the margins and understanding that's an area of opportunity they've uncovered a huge avenue to growth which is replicable and from a valuation standpoint it's great but from a business ownership standpoint, it's even better for them because now they can charge a charge more, pay less. Who doesn't want that, right? So let's exercise; again you asked why should we do a valuation beyond being prepared to sell should that they arise? It's a valuable exercise to do as business owners. Joe: I got an email the other day and it was from somebody named Anthony; let's leave it at that. And he wrote Joe this is really, really insightful. I had certain financial goals in the business and now I realize I'm that much closer to them than I ever was. This is making it so much more exciting to run my business every day which is exactly what it truly is. In that situation we determined, he determined; he came to the table with they've decided to charge shipping on items over a certain dollar value and that was going to add their estimate was $180,000 in additional discretionary earnings over a 12 month period. And then they had renegotiated cost of goods sold, they were going to save about $2 a unit and that was going to add $200,000 in total discretionary earnings over the next 12 months. That's $380,000 right there and with another $400,000 now they're at $680,000 they expect to be adding 2020. It's getting that much closer to their exit goal and it just defogs their window put your high beams on you can really see that much better when you're running your business it makes it that much more exciting. A lot of the things that we do talk about beyond the financials, Mark; it's not just about the numbers folks, it really starts with them. It's funny that it starts with them but that's pillar number four, documentation. Let's talk about the other three pillars briefly, Mark. Go ahead and tell me what the other three are. Mark: Risk, growth, transferability. Joe: It took me a while to remember what all four those are and I'm going to hold this up everybody; anybody that's on YouTube. I still have this on my desk after eight years. It says what they all are right there. Mark: I didn't make it memorable enough. Joe: Risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Mark: How are you as a student in school? I'm just curious. Joe: Oh I fell asleep in accounting class I tell that story all the time. And the bottom part of that; oh look at that I forgot to turn my phone off you're hearing my Twitter. Mark: I heard a bird. Joe: The bottom part of that note there was that our business is relational, not transactional. I need reminders every day. Anyway, risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; we've talked about number four, risk. I've got a business that should be closing in the next few days and 70% of their revenue is from one SKU. What is that called? Mark: That's product concentration or a single point of failure. Joe: Or a hero SKU or a bad idea or a unicorn; all sorts of trouble. I had a conversation with somebody; a couple three years ago… Mark: Bad idea. Joe: Actually it's a bad idea. Mark: It's not a bad idea if it's sustainable just to be clear but yeah I get where you're going. Joe: Well here's the sustainable part, so there was a gentleman that I was working on a valuation for and he had one SKU that generated 90% of his revenue. And I'm like this is a bad idea. He's like well it's a lot less work Joe, it's very defensible, look at our reviews. I mean he had me convinced that it was actually a good idea. And then guess what happened? Facebook changed an algorithm and they're their ads that were working with no longer allowed and they never recovered. Their business was worth two million dollars one month and the next month it was worth like one maybe; two million, 50% cut just like that and I haven't heard from him so I'm sure it's gotten worse and worse and worse. It's a single point of failure. It's a hero SKU. It's a risk. So, therefore, buyers are going to decrease the value when it comes to the valuation. We're going to do it for you and we're going to tell you what buyers think but it's a decimal point or two or three. So instead of at a 3.2 multiple; I'm going to do some math for everybody, simple numbers at 3.2 if you've got $100,000 in discretionary earning you're at 320,000 in terms of list price. Two-tenths of a decimal point off because of a risk point you go from 320 down to 300 or 300 down to 280. It changes that quickly because of a single point of failure or because of risk in disregard. So that's part of the risk, it's the hero SKU; things of that nature. But there's also age, there are trends, right? So generally we want to have a business that's about 24 months old at a minimum. We sold them for less. There are exceptions to every single rule we talked about here. But 24 months is when buyers start to have confidence and they don't discount the value of the business because of age. The other thing to talk about is the trends, Mark, right? I just had a valuation call last night with somebody I've been talking to for six months. And I can't seem to get updated financials on a monthly basis. That's the challenge. And finally, I get them and we have a conversation. We're recording this on March 3rd. I don't have January and February's numbers. I finally have Q4 and top-line revenues down 25%, bottom line discretionary earnings down 30%. So the value of that business just went from three-point something based upon the numbers down to easily 2.5 on the top side. So it's risk because it's trending down and somebody has to jump in and fix that downward trend, right? Mark: Mm-hmm that's right; yeah, absolutely. And one thing with these downward trends you talked about how quickly the discount, just an observation multiples go down much more easily than they go up. It's hard to prop the value and that multiple upwards but people would discount much more aggressively when they start to see problems such as the concentration or as you said the bad idea. Joe: So it is a bad idea when somebody calls and says hey I'd like to sell, I'd say hey you really can't nobody else will buy it. Bad idea. So we touch risk, we touched on growth; these are the first two, let's talk about the transferability of the business. What are the key components to this pillar? Mark: Yeah, the transferability; the easiest way in my world to think about this is just can somebody step into your shoes today and run the business without having a significant decline. Or maybe another way to think about it would be what's the learning curve of the business, or do you have documentation in place that will allow people to be replaced if needed? The transferability is just that and it can encompass a number of things first of all that affects all businesses would be procedures. The procedures that you have within your company to run it on a day to day basis; how do you handle returns if you have that sort of business, what are some common customer complaints or concerns or questions and how do you handle those; do you have a process set up for that. If you're an inventory-based business what is your inventory ordering process and your forecasting process? That's something that should be in a standard operating procedure. So there's all sorts of SOPs. Outside of those elements, transferability can come into your customer acquisition process and I brought this example up before during this call. If you're a doctor and your name is all over the website for your great athlete's foot cure now you've set up a barrier to transferability because you're selling off your own personal reputation. And unless you're willing to give your name and reputation to somebody else which most people aren't and understandably so you need to get that off there and no longer be the key method for customer acquisition. And the last thing would be licensing issues or other requirements to run your business. We've seen this before. Joe you had a valuation I remember this clear as day at Rhodium Weekend when they were doing live valuations up onstage and somebody came with a business we were supposed to be working quiet with other advisors, everyone was going to do valuations so we could see what it looked like live on stage and what was the result; it was an e-commerce business, what was the result of that valuation? Joe: It wasn't transferrable because they were sourcing product from the old; it was the old school, they were required to have a retail space so the business was going to be very, very hard to transfer. And I want to comment on that. Mark: It used to very common where wholesalers would require that you have a brick and mortar store because a lot of the legacy brick and mortar stores were telling their suppliers don't let these internet people come in and just start selling this and so they would require that storefront but it still exists out there. The other issues that I've seen with these licensing issues would be not only the storefront issue but maybe if you actually have to have a license to run the business. And you see this like; we had this with somebody that was selling high-end hair products. And you think well, what's the problem there? Well in order to sell these hair products you need to have a cosmetology license. And so that's a transferability issue. It cuts both ways though. Transferability when it comes to licensing and then these hurdles does set you up with some defense ability that can actually help your risk profile be lowered; anytime that there's a hurdle to jump over a business if you jump over it you're leaving some of your competitors on the other side of that hurdle, so that's a good thing. But the element that we started off with the SOPs and the documentation of your procedures, it's something that everybody should be able to do and should have in place. What are your common procedures, how do you do it, let's make it easy? I know you have something to say here on this, the last thing that I would recommend people do and I actually just did this with Quiet Light Brokerage for your sake and for other people within the company, diagram your business. Write out everybody who works for your business. Write it out; you can draw it if you like to draw, you can use a graphing software. I used Lucid Chart; very easy to use Lucid Chart for this or just write it out and see who has what roles within your business and how does that look. I'll tell you what it's an eye-opening experience because what you find especially in small businesses is you have people who wear multiple hats. You might find some crossover there as well. So that's where I would put transferability. Joe: Too many people are focused on the top line and very proud of the total revenues that they're doing. But ultimately we're running these businesses to make money and to be profitable and we can help you hone in on that profitability and what your business is truly worth. So we've touched on what we do when we import and normalize a P&L and look at financial key metrics. We've touched on the four pillars which are risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Within each pillar, there's five to six different points that we touched on in a valuation process and we really get to know this invisible; I call it a fifth pillar. Mark corrects me every time. You don't need to Mark, people know this. The person behind the business; the trust and credibility that they have is that invisible fifth pillar. It's the mortar holding it all together. Are you a good human? Do people trust you? Do people like you? Believe it or not, if you are people are going to pay more for your business. You do make a difference in the overall value of your business. So we do all of these things and then we create a profit and loss statement with a detailed add-backs schedule. We go through that with you and we firm up your seller's discretionary earnings and apply a multiple range to it. This is where it gets into the weeds and we won't do it today on this podcast. I'm actually going to go ahead and record a podcast following this one on the three levels of add-backs. There are six different points to each level and it's very eye-opening. A lot of people don't understand the importance of detailing the add-backs. A few folks are like why do I need a broker for I'm just going to sell to this consumer group that's buying up FBA businesses. You need to understand the add-back schedules so that if you choose to sell directly to them you're getting maximum value for your business or even better the real value for your business; not maximum, the real value. It's okay, you can choose to sell to whomever you want however you want but make sure you're getting your own numbers right and that's what I'm going to share on the next podcast. Mark: Fantastic. Joe: Okay, one more final thing. Mark: I was going to say we're getting close to time here. People are like my drive is done. I'm at the office. Joe: We are. You're so eloquent Mark with your words and your e-mails and all this. I say this all the time and people hear you speak. You speak very, very well so why don't you do one final wrap up on why you think someone should have a business evaluation done through Quiet Light Brokerage and how it's going to help them in the future and then I'll give my two cents as well. Mark: Flattery is not going to get you anywhere Joe. Joe: Tell them what I want you to tell them. Mark: Well that I don't exactly know, I'll tell them what I think. So the question is why should people get a valuation done to kind of wrap this up. Your business is most likely your most valuable asset and if it isn't yet hopefully it will be someday and you should know what the value of it is. More importantly, you should understand what drives the value of your business and also what's holding it back. My favorite part of evaluation when I'm doing one; and actually I've got a call here in seven minutes to do a valuation, it's going to be coming up soon, somebody is taking us up on this. My favorite part of a valuation isn't telling somebody what their business is worth right now because that's usually somewhat predictable. It's being able to tell them what I love about this business and what buyers are going to salivate over is fill in the blank, and this part you've done a great job here, the areas where you're going to have some friction in your sale and it's going to cause a discount on the business are these elements. Now what I'm doing there is I'm really giving some insight into where the business is today but I'm also laying out a roadmap for everybody that I'm doing that for to say if you want to grow the value of this asset work on these elements and you know what if there's an element of your business that's really good double down on it. One of the areas that we've talked about in the past is this pillar of growth, we want them to have lots of growth potential for the business; lots of growth prospects for that business and they need to be real. However, if you have easy obvious growth within your business take advantage of it because I would rather multiply a larger earnings number and get that going up because it's a lot easier to grow your value that way. Doing a valuation will help identify those aspects of your business; where is it valuable right now, what's holding it back, and what's the plan to be able to make it more valuable. You don't have to sell the business. If you do these things you will have a business that is more valuable and you're going to gain insights that you never really thought about. I will challenge everybody if you don't do anything else on this call we've talked a lot about finances so I'm going to change it up. Diagram your business and then feel free to email me if you thought it was a complete waste of time. Joe: Or you can go at Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Mark: Tell me it's a complete waste of time. Joe: Mark with a K. Mark: Mark with a K. The only way it would be a complete waste of time is if you have like two people in your company. But then you know what? Joe: Send him an email. Mark: Yeah, right. But then if you're going to do that diagram out the other people that are supporting you. Your contractors, the vendors, the people that are key for your business to run and take a look at that and you might not gain a whole lot of new insights but you're going to see your business in a way that you've never seen it before. Joe: What you're hearing here from Mark is that we're here to help. We're sharing information with you and giving you tools to make a better decision for your business and for the future when you are ready. If you are ever ready to sell. In no way shape or form are we ever here to talk you into anything. We're going to share the information with you. And that was the reason I chose Quiet Light Brokerage back in 2010 to sell my own business. I talked to three different firms. Two were trying to get me to sign a contract. The third was giving me helpful information to build a more valuable business to sell when I was ready to sell. And that conversation was with Mark. Lastly, don't be embarrassed by the size of your business. Sometimes we'll go to Mastermind groups and someone will; I can tell they're uncomfortable talking to us because they're only doing $100,000 in profit. Are you kidding me? You're an entrepreneur, you've built your own business, you're doing $100,000 in profit which is 40% higher than the national average; I don't know the numbers, I'm going to get a correction on that Joe@QuietLightBrokerage.com. It's huge compared to the national average. Don't ever be embarrassed by the size of your business. The smallest one we sold in 2019 was $28,000. Yes, it was a pocket deal because Brad had a larger listing and the gentleman had two smaller sites he wanted to sell off. They're all shapes and sizes. Our average transaction size in 2019 was 1.1 million. It grows every single year but we go through all different sizes. We want to help you get from that hundred thousand dollar valuation to a million-dollar valuation. We've had clients where they first sold their business at 7,000 then 20,000 then 220,000 and now nine million and the next exit that that particular individual has set is 100 million. We want you guys to achieve your goals and we're going to help you along the way. But we're not going to talk you into a single thing. So reach out go to the website. It's the valuation form or sell form I think it is or it shoot us an email at inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com and we'll hook you up with one of the qualified advisors here who are all entrepreneurs themselves. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage
What is one of the surest paths to substantial wealth? Grow and sell a business. Today's episode is all about Joe's book project, "The Exitpreneurs Playbook." Joe has over 8000 stories to tell about what it's like to buy, what it is like to sell, and ways to outsmart the typical entrepreneur process. Mark is interviewing Joe about this upcoming project, his motivations behind creating it, and how getting to the writing process carried its share of challenges. Joe believes that an exitpreneur should have the tools in hand to start, run, and grow their business for better decision making later on. He is not telling anyone to sell, he is offering them the strategies they need in order to be ready if they do. Episode Highlights: Joe's idea and the process of putting it into book format. Why he wanted to write the book. Reasons exit planning can be challenging for the business owner. The differences between an entrepreneur who is considering a sale versus one who has actually prepared an exit. How businesses often outgrow the founder and smart moves to make before that happens. The importance of reverse engineering to the goal for a better exit strategy. The difference between the entrepreneur and an exitpreneur. How Joe came up with the book title. Transcription: Mark: So Joe I was at an event recently in Salt Lake City and it was in just general kind of a conference meeting room for about 50 people or so and they had a lot of books in this place. And I was intrigued to just kind of look around and see what was there and you'll never guess what book was up on the shelf. Actually, do you want to guess? Joe: Yeah I want to guess. I'm looking around my office, Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss? Mark: You know what? It actually was in there. Joe: It was in there. Mark: Not the one I'm referring to. Joe: The ONE Thing by John Keller? Now, wait let's call out one of our friends; Superfans by Pat Flynn? Mark: You know I don't know. There were a lot of entrepreneurial focused books so maybe that one was there; I don't know. Joe: Okay. Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel? Mark: Buy Then Build by Walker Deibel; yeah absolutely, that was on the shelf. In fact, they had multiple copies of it. They were giving that book away. And today; what is it? It's February 11th so we're a little bit past a year since Walker launched that book and it spent a year as number one on Amazon Bestseller in this category which is pretty fantastic. I mean obviously, we're super happy for Walker. He won an award for being the thought leader of the year through a major alliance of mergers and acquisition advisors. Joe: Huge. Mark: That is huge. He's had professors from Ivy League colleges come up and talk to him about the book. All of this leads me to something beyond just the accolades and that is the information that's out there in this space about what it's like to sell, what it's like to buy. Walker is talking on specifically which is the buy-side and how to use this as an investment vehicle, how to outsmart the Startup Game as he says and reduce some of that risk. But there's also a whole on the sell-side as well where people don't really know that their business is sellable or they don't think about it. But just yesterday I was reading something on the fastest way to build wealth; what is the fastest way to build wealth? And the conclusion that they had is the fastest way to build wealth is through building a business and selling it. This is one of the quickest ways to actually building wealth. And I know you've had guests on the podcast here who have talked about this process or you call it your Incredible Exits series. I'm really, really excited that you're writing a book on this and you're not calling it Incredible Exits despite everybody else's opinions that you should but it's these stories behind the scenes. Joe: Yeah I'm excited to be writing it finally. I sat down with some friends a year ago probably around a fire pit; maybe a year and a half ago because it was summertime. We're recording this in February of 2020 and I said look I'm making an announcement, I'm writing a book, I'm telling you guys to call me out on it and then I didn't do anything but I tried. I tried to write it. I tried to outline chapters. I tried to follow up… Mark: Hold on one second. You made this promise right on a fire pit with friends? Joe: Yes. Mark: How much did you consume before you made this promise? Joe: I'm a 2-drink maximum kind of guy, that's just the way I am. Mark: Okay. Joe: It's like giving myself an injection of the flu when I have more so it wasn't much. But I didn't get it done. It's a lot of work. So I followed the original book in a box method and didn't get it done at the scheduled time. I was at Brand Accelerator Live with our friend Scott Voelker last September and one of big Scott's announcements was that he actually wrote a book. And it is also here on my desk somewhere; where is it Scott? It's the Take Action Effect. I just turned my head away from the microphone, sorry folks. And I met his scribe; a young lady by the name of Brennan and I connected with her during the event and talked with her and said okay this is it I'm done. I'm hiring a scribe and I'm going to write the book. And I've talked to a number of people about it and let me just cover the process and then answer the question as to why the heck I'm doing this because it's a massive undertaking. The process is instead of actually writing a book myself with written words and a keyboard I get interviewed for I think it was 8 2-hour sessions; so 16 hours in interviews. First, we outlined the chapters and go through the whole process and instead of talking about; I mean writing an article or a chapter on seller's discretionary earnings and add-backs and the three levels of add-backs and all the different things that we talk about on a regular basis Brennan interviewed me. She transcribes the entire interview through UberConference and Rev.com for those that really want great transcription services. And now we're in the sort of lull between all of those interviews and me getting my first draft. They're going to give it to me in thirds. So the first one I will get will probably be I want to say mid to late March and then they'll drip it out in thirds every week for 3 weeks. They want to overwhelm me in terms of reviewing and editing. I still have a lot of technical stuff to add to it but it's really kicked the process into high gear. It's not cheap, let me tell you that. It's an expensive undertaking but I think given what we do for a living and how many people we're trying to help I think it's well worth it. Why am I writing a book? Walker's been an inspiration, very successful with Buy Then Build and the amount of people that he's been able to reach and help on the buy-side. We work with sell-side brokers or sell-side clients for the most part and I've done the math Mark, does it sound inconceivable that I've talked to 8,000 entrepreneurs over the last 8 years? Mark: Not at all. Joe: Yeah and that's probably a conservative number. I'm not saying I've had an in-depth evaluation with 8,000 of them but I have without a doubt talked to 8,000 and that does not count standing in front of a room with 3, 4, 500 people. And the challenge has been we've got to reach them one by one and I know that Walker's book has been as you said best seller. I think it's probably sold over 10,000 copies at this point. Mark: It's over 15 at least. Joe: 15,000 copies? Mark: Yeah, I actually talked to Walker about it a while ago. Joe: I think he told me something like 99% of books sells less than a hundred copies that are published. Now Walker, correct me if I'm wrong but it's pretty impressive. So to get what we share on those valuation calls into somebodies hands before, during, and after they have a valuation call and when they're in an audience that will give them every possible detail that we've developed over the last 8 plus years of doing what we do and sharing that in writing so that they can essentially change their mindset. And that's the goal of the book, it's to change their mindset from reaching out to us when they're sick and tired of running their business or they've had a bump where things get tougher and they say Gosh how can I sell this business? A buddy of mine told me I can get X multiple. I'm going to call Mark and say Mark how much can I sell my business for? I want to change people's mindsets. Instead of saying how much can I sell my business or more often they say how much is my business worth, I want them to say I want to build wealth like you said at the beginning and I want to sell my business for X dollars. I want to do that in 4 years. In order to do that, they need to understand where they are today. And the book is going to help them reverse engineer the path from where they are today to that exit so that they can do a partial valuation, get comfortable with brokers, and drive that path. I had a conversation with Mike Jackness recently and Mike talked about the fact that about what we do sometimes entrepreneurs just don't want to hear it because the idea of exit planning is so beyond what they're trying to do when they're just trying to keep the wheels on the bus, right? They're running out of inventory, they've got competitors coming at them from every angle, they're trying to do cash flow planning and it's just so hard that they can't see out the front window. The objective of the book is to sort of clear that window, have a clear path to an exit that they understand and it's a much better ride. I've been through it myself personally. You did it for me back in 2010. I could see nothing, understood nothing, we had a call, we had several calls and the light bulbs went off and I knew exactly the path to take and I'll tell you what operating my business became a lot more fun and exciting even though I was sick and tired of it after 5 years. Mark: You know the more I experience the business and grow as an entrepreneur the more I'm learning. With anything dealing with a goal really the best way to achieve these things is what you've said, reverse engineer it. Rather than just kind of impulsively decide that I'm going to do something figure out where you want to be and then reverse engineer. But in order to reverse engineer it, you need to understand the mechanisms that are going on to create that value. You're trying with this book to create a shift in the mindset of entrepreneurs, right? By the way, folks if you haven't figured this out we don't have a guest; Joe is the guest. I'm going to interview Joe about the book and maybe we'll talk a little bit about what it is like to do what Joe and I've been doing and everyone else at Quiet Light. Joe: Right, we're co-guests. We're co-hosts and co-guests today because I want to grill you too. Mark: Very good. Alright, I want to start out by saying okay let's talk about your experience. You've been doing this for 8 years. You've done literally tens of millions of dollars of transactions on your own within Quiet Light Brokerage. Joe: I'm fastly closing in on 100 million. Mark: That's right you are. You are; absolutely. Joe: Inaudible[0:11:17.8] 12 to 18 months; pretty shocking. That's amazing. Mark: Absolutely amazing. Talk to me about the mindset that you often see or most naturally see in an entrepreneur that comes to us to sell versus those rare cases of somebody who has planned to sell and what is the difference in the actual process value and stress levels I would say for everyone involved. Joe: Yeah. Look all the success stories that you guys hear about on the Incredible Exits for the most part those are people that had the mindset that they wanted to determine and plan out their exit. They got an education, they figured out what their exit goal was and they called Mark, myself, Jason, Amanda, Chuck, anyone of us and reverse engineer the path to that. They didn't call and say what's your fee, okay I want to list. It was this how does this whole thing work and then we worked with them over a 6, 12, or 18 month period sometimes even more. Those are the success stories that you're hearing about. The people you're not hearing about never sell their business because they call. They might have a call like this or I was just at eCommerceFuel last week as an event and kudos to Andrew Youderian and all the guests and all the people that are there; brilliant, so many smart folks. But even with that high level of entrepreneurial success and drive I still get e-mails like I've gotten this week which is a great chat last week, great presentation. I did a presentation with Mike about the sales of ColorIt. You've really inspired me to sort of try this path to an exit. And then I said okay well this is what I need. Yeah, I don't know I'm so busy with adding SKUs and I'm not really there yet. I'm not ready to sell yet. I'm not ready to think about selling yet. Whereas the yet it should be now regardless of where you are in the business. These people are already doing; the 2 that I'm thinking about where I got the e-mails like the one I don't know his growth. Well, I could do the math on his growth but the discretionary stands out that he's close to 600,000 in discretionary earnings and it is 5 to 6 times more than he ever made in his prior day job. And so he's trying to work towards an exit and retirement. The other was doing nearly 10 million in revenue and had a 25% decline. He's young, he's under 30 years old. And neither of these guys are really ready to exit. Of course, they're not ready to exit but I want them to set a financial goal. I don't care if it's 3 to 5 years from now. Set that goal. I need to exit for X in order to exit. And then figure out where they are, get the education, and work towards that. In 5 years if they're not ready to sell then move the goal post, move it 6 years down the road or 7 years down the road. That is as you said at the beginning the surest way to real financial wealth. But we're not talking about them yet because they're pausing, they're hesitating, they're not going to do it. Those are the stories that I talk about a little bit in the book. There's somebody that was my first million-dollar listing back in the day at Quiet Light. I remember it well. I'm not going to name names. We'll call him Big Mike. That's not his name but we'll call him Big Mike. He had no financials; none whatsoever. And I remember sitting over Christmas break taking all of his bank statements and I actually created the profit and loss statement myself. That is a no-no. We do not do that anymore. No. But I did it. I got it all detailed and accurate and listed the business for 1.1 million. I got an offer for 800 from the gentleman that you sold his business once upon a time. It was actually a good offer because the revenue trends were in decline. And Big Mike said to me well why would I accept it all I have to do is XYZ over the next 12 months and I'll make a quarter of a million dollars and then we can sell the business for 1.2, 1.3 million. And I had a great deal of experience in paid advertising at the time as you know because I just sold my business. This was probably 2012 or early '13. And so we walked through all the possibilities, what to do and how to do it and off he went. The problem was that Big Mike's heart was not in it anymore. He had run up all of his personal debt and personal expenses; his overhead was very high. He lived the life of a very, very successful entrepreneur and his business was no longer trending that way so money was getting tight. He didn't have the ability to pull money from the business and put it into the ad spend that he needed to to reverse it. And so every year for the following 3 years I got any mail from Big Mike that said something along the lines of hey my revenue and profit is at XYZ, can we sell the business for this? And each year it went from that offer from Tony of 800 to the value really was in about 600 the next year. And then the next year he sent me an e-mail it was really based upon what he had given me, about 500. The last time he sent me an e-mail it was about 400. Every single time I replied with based upon what you've given me which is just an email with numbers and I'd say your business value was probably X. Please run a profit and loss statement out of Quickbooks or Xero and export it to Excel with a monthly view. Silence, nothing for 12 more months because he didn't take the necessary steps to do what you have to do in protecting your most valuable asset, in his case his business. And so he's probably got a job, unfortunately. And that's the path unfortunately too many people go down or they learn from the mistakes and they hang up their hat on this particular business. They can't sell it and they move on to another one and hopefully learn from that mistake but it's a painful one. I just want to see people learn from that and therefore the painful process of writing a book. Mark: You know it's great to focus on the success stories. We like success stories. I like talking about success stories that make me happy. But for all these success stories that you have shared so far through the podcast that you'll be sharing through this book we also have the stories like that. And I could probably rattle off a number as well. Maybe I'll start a new podcast or write a book called Unincredible Exits or Nasty Exits or something like that. It will be real depressing and no one will ever want to read it. But you're absolutely right in; that example is really good. That example shows what we see so often from entrepreneurs where they're running; they're used to the hustle, they're used to the grind, they're used to being able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps to be able to correct something but sometimes when a business gets mature especially after you've run it for a while doing that can be really, really difficult. I also think it's; I want to re-emphasize something you said which is the picking number, reverse engineering, and getting to that number doesn't mean that you have to sell at that point. We've been pretty public and I will continue to be public by saying that the best scenario for you is to create a business that you can own for your life, right? Because it's difficult to start a business; the cash flow that they build is great, the value that is in them as assets is also fantastic. So I'm a big believer in building and holding or buying and holding and growing but that doesn't mean that exiting shouldn't be an option. And so when you hit that number, if you're not ready to sell you can always move the goalposts as you suggested or create a new goal. But something that I know you've told me in an email where we were discussing this book is you said one of the goals is to not allow the business to outgrow its founder. And boy this is an issue that comes up time and time again that we see and that is business owners were really good at starting, really good at founding something and even growing it to a certain extent getting to a point where making that next shift is difficult. I always describe that the growth path of a business is a series of climbs and plateaus. You climb to a point and it starts to plateau and then you have to change the business a little bit. Maybe you have to add new people; maybe you have to add a different structure to the business. And once you do then hopefully you start climbing again and then you hit another plateau and then it's another shift or another restructuring of the company or maybe a new initiative. What point and is there any examples that you've seen where somebody has hit that point where business is just about to outgrow them and they were smart enough to be able to not let it do that? Joe: Yeah the climbing the plateaus, by the way, let's not forget the valleys, right? Yes, my name is Joe Valley but… Mark: Don't forget the valley. Joe: There are two valleys here, right? It's a climb, it's a plateau, and then boom there's a really nasty valley right there and you're in it. You got to climb out of it. That's why I think it's important to actually do something that you like; something that you enjoy a little bit. It could be something that you're passionate about because when those tough times come and as an entrepreneur they will unless I'm unique and nobody else has tough times. I don't think I'm unique. You're going to have to fight and climb back out of that valley and on the other side there's a mountain, a peak; not a plateau hopefully. And those are great success stories to tell and very sellable businesses. But the idea of a business outgrowing the founder is not original, right? I mean this is something I've seen throughout my own entrepreneurial life where I used to do radio advertising. I owned a radio direct response media buying agency back when there were 800 numbers associated with 60-second spot ads. I could have held that business and grown it but it would have required more and more overhead in terms of people. I don't like managing a lot of people. I tell you what your job is and how to do it and I expect that you're going to work hard and do the best you can. If you don't I'm kind of blunt unfortunately and fortunately in some ways. So if you're in a situation and I see this a lot where buyers sometimes naively say well if it's so great why are they selling it? And it is because the business more often than not has outgrown them. They wanted to live the 4-hour workweek. It turned into 30 and that's okay. And they've got 5 VA's and that's okay. But in order to take it beyond just a SaaS business that's doing 2 million in revenue, they need to hire 3 more developers. They don't want to go through the headache and hassle of that. Or to take it off of Amazon they need to learn SEO offline or email marketing or whatever it might be and that's not their skill set. Or it's hiring people and that's not their skill set. And they learned that one of the greatest ways to earn wealth is to sell a business. Now people that buy Walker's book have learned that they can; a different breed, a different mentality of an entrepreneur comes in. They're not the startup entrepreneurs. They come in and they take over where that startup entrepreneur left off. The business has outgrown them and they hand it off to somebody like Matt Howeth who can. He comes from the corporate world. He's always had lots of travel, lots of staff, and lots of hours. He gets it. He can take it and bring that business in and have a team of employees, a team of VA's and manage it and take it up to the next level because that's his passion. That's what he does. He gets it. The startup is not his passion. It's not his skill set. So one of the things that I think is critically important and sometimes this only comes with age and mistakes and failures and successes and that is to figure out who the hell you are. What kind of entrepreneur are you? Mark: That brings in mind 2 clients I've worked with in the past 14 years now. And one of them; I've quoted this story before but he came to me with a business, I've never talked to him about sharing his story so I won't say what he was selling. But he was selling a physical product. He had initially acquired this business for 5 figures, like a mid-5 figure level and immediately grew the business significantly to the point where it was doing 7 figures in top-line revenue, mid-6 figures in discretionary earnings and so when he gave it to me to sell one of my very first questions was why are you selling? You've been growing year over year, you're only adding value to the business, this looks like a fantastic business, you've got great rankings, great positioning great pricing; all these things working in your favor and he said well right now I store all of the inventory in an external garage on my property. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, my son and I go out and we fill orders. It's really nice. It's like I don't have any more room for inventory and if I wanted to get another space I'm going to have to hire somebody and then I'm going to have to hire more people to handle the marketing. I just don't want to do that. I would rather cash out and move on. Meanwhile, another entrepreneur that I've dealt with, he was a CPA by trade and loved being on the buy-side and what he really, really enjoyed was taking a business that was somewhat complex, somewhat messy, somewhat inefficient in the way it was run and simplifying it. And I love; I've sold a couple of businesses for him, I love taking a look at where his businesses started. Their P&Ls were these super long crazy messes and by the time that he was ready to sell they were consolidated down into less than 30 lines because he simplified these businesses, really focused on this principle of 80:20 and said I'm going to just focus on what really makes sense and I'm going to get rid of all the rest of it. For him the act of cleaning it up was great but he would; unlike with Walker's book which is a lot of buy, build, and grow, his was I'm going to buy make more efficient and then I'm going to sell. And he did this several times and it was really fun to watch because he knew who he was. That first seller that I had, he knew who he was. He knew he didn't want to have a staff he had done that and didn't want to do it again. He loved running the business with his son. The second entrepreneur, he was a buyer, he knew what he liked, he also didn't want to have a large staff. There are other people out there that do want to build that team. There are people out there that say I want to have 100 million dollar exit so I'm going to buy a bunch of these businesses and build something or I'm going to acquire 15. They're all different types of entrepreneurs and everyone has different skill sets. Knowing who you are I think that right there is a great bit of advice but going back to what you were saying earlier Joe if you're so busy and in the weeds constantly and just running and hustling and hustling and hustling and never taking a moment to step back and to think about either the exit or about maybe this topic here of what type of entrepreneur are you, where do you want to see yourself in the next 5 years, what type of business operation do you want to have it's really hard to know where you're going and then your business drives you instead of driving your business and your career drives you instead of you driving your career. Joe: Yeah. Walker's book takes the mystery out of buying a business and the how-to and building it beyond that hence the title Buy Then Build or what he coined as acquisition entrepreneurship. My book The Exitpreneurs Playbook is going to take the mystery out of selling your business and setting those goals on what your exit is and reverse engineering a path to that. Now that I've said the title can we make fun of me in terms of predicting I don't know the future doom and gloom of this title because I did the opposite of what everybody told me to do? Mark: You know what? I like it. I remember doing this when I picked the Quiet Light Brokerage logo. I did 99 designs and I had everyone vote on different types and I hated what everybody chose. So I'm like well it's my business so I'm going to do my own thing. Joe: And you know it's a check, check, send something; I don't know, it must've been fall of last year and email out something about the Quiet Light logo and how it has stood the test of time so kudos to you. Yeah so I sent an e-mail out to a couple of dozen past clients that I sold their businesses and they're going to be part of the book. So part of the book is education and part inspiration; inspiration with them sharing some golden nuggets, wisdom, experience things that they wish they did differently. So I sent it out to them and then another say dozen of influencers that are in the space. People that we know well like Mike Jackness, Greg Mercer, Andrew Youderian, Ezra Firestone, things of that nature; people of that nature. And I think out of roughly 25 people Jason Yellowitz is the only one who said he liked Exitpreneur. Everyone else said Incredible Exits, Joe, it just rings, it rings. And there's been something about the term Exitpreneur that has stuck with me during the interview process and the more I said it out loud the more Brennan and I, and again she's my scribe, the more it just felt natural. Because that's what people are becoming when they sell their business, they're exitpreneurs. The difference between an entrepreneur and an exitpreneur is an entrepreneur is somebody that runs their own business but an exitpreneur is somebody that runs their own business and they have the knowledge and a plan. And I want to give them that knowledge in order to devise a plan and become one of those people that generate most of their wealth from an exit. So fingers crossed on that. Can I do a shameless plug right now for the Quiet Light Podcast where I think we're about 25 minutes in and just a little bit of a shameless plug? I have to tell you… Mark: I felt like this whole thing was a shameless plug for your upcoming book. Joe: I know but I don't even; I haven't even put up a website yet. There's no Facebook group. Really what it is, is a plug for education because part; in truth, I've said the same thing 8,000 times over and over. Maybe I'm just tired of saying it so I'm… Mark: With that Joe when I was on this trip recently I was in the airport and thinking about Mission, Vision, Values for Quiet Light Brokerage and I don't have the vision statement out yet but this component of education, if it's not part of our main vision it's definitely one of our core values and really something that I've built up. I was speaking to somebody just this morning before we recorded this about one of the goals or one of the mission; I'm sorry one of the core values of Quiet Light is to give entrepreneurs the right education and the right set of tools to be able to make good informed decisions. Because when I sold my business I didn't feel like I had that. I felt like I was misled. I felt like I was put in a position where somebody wanted to get me in an exclusive contract, promised me big bucks, and then when I went to go sell I was completely unprepared. I didn't know what was happening and so when I started Quiet Light the goal has been from day one not to tell anyone to sell but to give them the tools so that they know what their business is worth today, what it could be worth in the future, what's driving its value so that you can just make a good decision. That's your decision. So the education piece and I joke about this being a shameless plug; the reason that I'm excited about this, and I genuinely am excited that you're writing this book is because that education piece needs to be out there. And I love the idea; more than the idea, love the opportunity that we have to educate entrepreneurs of what's available to them if they transition from an entrepreneur to exitpreneur, understanding that, the bulk of the wealth that you build in your lifetime for most entrepreneurs will be at that exit. That might be 2 years from now, that might be 20 years from now, either case it's fine but having that plan to maximize that value and keeping the process smooth is important. Sorry, I totally cut you off of that but I want to emphasize that the education piece is really what I'm super excited about. Joe: Now we were going to do 2 parts of this podcast, a little bit on the book and a little bit about the philosophy behind Quiet Light's foundation and how you built the company and the entrepreneurial approach. So let's do a; I think we should do an entire podcast on this business and how it's built with entrepreneurs helping entrepreneurs just to educate people more about who we are, what we do, and why we do it because I think it's necessary and you've done an incredible job with the model. But in terms of the education, I got a voicemail yesterday and this is the type of thing I want everybody out there that thinks they don't have time to do it and they're just keeping the wheels on the bus so to speak, take the time to make time for planning your exit using the educational tools that we provide whether it's this podcast or articles or Walker's book on my eventual book or having a conversation because that's an education tool. Have a conversation with an adviser at Quiet Light. Really do it. But I got a voicemail from somebody who I sold businesses for, very, very well off financially, runs a family office now, bought a business from Walker for around 8 million dollars in 2019. And he heard the podcast on product innovation, product development with Zack at Gembah. And he just left a voicemail yesterday saying hey man I just want to let you know on the way back home from Austin I got a chance to meet with Zack and we're going to go ahead and do some product innovation, product expansion, adding a number of new SKUs and accessories to the brand. I really appreciate it. I don't know if enough people tell you that we actually use the tools that you share so thank you. It's great to hear that. So thank you sir; I'm not going to say your first name, for reaching out and letting us know. For the rest of us this is the shameless plug part and I've said this, I said this at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said it in eCommerceFuel, Mark you and I have done now I think it was 114; I checked this morning, podcasts. So that's how many are up on iTunes. We've got a total of 31 reviews. They're all huge close to 5-star reviews. Thank you, everyone, who has given us reviews. I wasn't aware that we had any at all because we hardly ever plug it. And so I was at Blue Ribbon Mastermind talking to David Wood who will be a guest on the podcast in a few weeks. He's a personal coach and a good friend of Ezra's and he said something about he was on 70 podcasts last year and he chose which ones to go on based upon the number of reviews. So I checked ours. We have 31; pleasantly surprised. I checked the EcomCrew, Mike Jackness and he's got 81. So I stood on stage at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and I said everybody come on now Mike's not here, I want one more reviews than Mike has. He's been doing; I think he's done 3 times as many podcasts as us so we're doing okay. But please if you enjoy the podcast, if you like the podcast take a minute and go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you're listening and pop in a review. We greatly appreciate it and share the information and wealth with all the others that need it. Mark: Yeah. There's a video out there and I don't know if we're going to be posting it on our YouTube channel but there's a video out there of you making this plug at Blue Ribbon Mastermind and Ezra is standing there with you and he's thinking this is what you're using the stage time for? Like you have the opportunity to talk about what Quiet Light does and all you're doing is trying to beat Mike Jackness and like absolutely I'm trying to beat Mike Jackness that's it. Joe: We won't be sharing that video. That's not ours to share but I shared it with the team and had a good laugh at myself because of it so no doubt about it. Mike's a great guy. Ezra is a great guy. We don't mention people that we don't like obviously so if we've never mentioned you oh boy that's a long list; oh no, I can't say that. Let's just say thanks; final thanks, Mike Nuñez. Thank you, Mike. Mark: Yeah, Mike Nuñez, absolutely. I think that's a great way to end up this episode here. Let's do one in the future about the building of Quiet Light Brokerage and I'd also love to get feedback from people that have listened this far through this episode and are listening right now. Are there topics that you'd like to hear us talk about outside of bringing guests in? And we can bring on people within Quiet Light Brokerage, bring in Walker on the podcast again or Chuck or Brad or any of the many entrepreneurs that are working with Quiet Light Brokerage. Anything you want us to talk about specifically when it comes to buying or selling? We'd love to know, we want to produce content that you guys wanted to hear so feel free to hit me up Mark@QuietLightBrokerage or Inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage as well. Joe: Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage
This week we are talking about add backs, what is a legitimate add back, and how they affect your business valuation. The value of a business is dependent on earnings but it is also dependent on the company's discretionary earnings such as the add backs of owner salary and benefits. Then there are those one-offs – those non-recurring expenses which are also known as add backs. Those are the add backs what we are dissecting on today's episode. A seller's due diligence when it comes to discretionary earnings can help buyers see their potential ROI without any grey area. Episode Highlights: Why we work off the seller's discretionary earnings and what that is. How discretionary earnings are a case by case calculation for each business. The three levels of add backs. Why it's important to take a scalpel to those third level add backs. Questionable add backs – what can fly what cannot. How math and logic are the key tools to determine legitimate add backs. Transcription: Mark: Alright, welcome back Joe. I know you just came back from Blue Ribbon Mastermind; Ezra's event. It was up in Seattle, is that right? Joe: Yeah, a beautiful city and a great event. On a personal level, I had a great time. I took my 17-year-old with me and just explored the city in off-hours. Business-wise I'm telling you Ezra Firestone is sort of the Tony Robbins of the e-commerce world in my view. He gets up there, he's real, he says it like it is, he shares his own information to the Blue Ribbon Mastermind members and it's such actionable, transferable information. And the level of entrepreneurs and intelligence at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind I think is nearly unmatched; it goes very politically correct I think, right, nearly unmatched? Mark: Yes. I think every conference that we come back from is our latest favorite conference. But Blue Ribbon and Ezra's events have been fantastic since we started going to them. And you're right he's just a fantastic guy. He gives a ton of information and has a ton of insight to share. So one of these days I'm going to get to go to the event instead of you because I want to get in on some of these. Awesome, glad to have you back, we do have a couple of conferences coming up. We will be sending these out in our email; our newsletters that go out every Thursday or Friday depending on when we get our stuff together so pay attention to those. Alright, this week Joe you and I are going to do the podcast. Joe: That's right we have two very special guests. Mark: Two very special guests; that's right. We're not bringing anybody else in on this one because we want to talk about add backs; what is a valid add back or what is a legitimate add back? And I know for a buying perspective this can be a little jarring the first time. If you're just coming into the acquisitions industry; if you're looking for your first acquisition and you look at a profit and loss statement that we provide you might be wondering well why are these guys throwing all these expenses back at me, these were on the tax returns shouldn't they be included? So Joe why don't we start with that? Why do we work off to this number of seller's discretionary earnings and what is seller's discretionary earnings? Joe: That's a good question and a great place to start. Just defining it simply is the best way to go. So when you're running a profit loss statement as a business owner; hopefully in Quick Books or Xero or something like that, you're going to get a net income line at the bottom. So let's say you do it for the trailing 12 months you get a net income. But there are certain owner benefits that you get as the owner of the business. You have an Internet-based business; you may write your car off in that business. You may pay yourself $200,000 salary in the business. All sorts of things like that they're generally owner benefits and then there are some one-time non-recurring expenses; these are things that do not carry forward to the new owner so they're classified as add backs. So net income plus add backs equals seller's discretionary earnings or SDE. It is what business is in this general category are multiplied by; they're valued at a multiple of the trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings. So that's the critical nature of an add back; it can make a tremendous difference in the value of the business when using a proper formula. If you don't do that the add backs properly you're either going to under inflate or in some cases, unfortunately, some inexperienced brokers might over-inflate the value of your business. So it's critical for both buyers and sellers to know how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings and what is a valid or legitimate add back. Mark: Yeah and I think on that the thing I would like to just add here and emphasize is that there are rules to seller's discretionary earnings. I know I've talked to some sellers, I've talked to some other brokers frankly outside of Quiet Light Brokerage and they feel as if well if you can make an argument for it then we can add it back and they approach this almost as if it's just a free for all as to who can make the best argument. The fact of the matter is there is an actual definition for seller's discretionary earnings and there are rules to follow. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't some situations that require interpretation. And we're going to go into some of those scenarios in this podcast today where you have to try and figure out is this a legitimate add back or not? But at the heart of seller's discretionary earnings when we are showing seller's discretionary earnings what we want to do is we want to show a baseline number for buyers to understand what is my potential return on investment? When you think about all the different buyers that are going to look at a potential opportunity, every buyer comes with their own set of assumptions, right? Some buyers might already have infrastructures set up to run a business; maybe they already have a marketing team in place or maybe they' already have a warehouse if it's an e-commerce business or if it's a SaaS business maybe they already have a development team in place. Those assumptions need to be worked into their own evaluation of the business. What we want to show is a baseline number so that you as a buyer can figure out what your potential return on investment is for you. And that's going to vary from one buyer to the next. So seller's discretionary earnings that's all it is; it's a baseline number, we want to be consistent from one business to the next that's why there are rules as to how we calculate this number. Joe: Right and even though combined we've got 20 years of experience doing this and have sold well over a hundred million in transactions just the 2 of us combined it's still a case by case basis and you got to dig into each particular business and get an understanding of the nuances of it to determine whether or not it's worth doing an add back based upon the size of the business and the total number of add backs and if it should be done. Generally speaking, there are 3 different levels of add backs; the first 2 are pretty standard, it's the third one that we want to spend the most time on today because of the nuances of them. But let's run through that first and second level. Mark, if you want to start off with that first level why don't you address the owner's salaries in add back. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Joe, I like the format you put together here. You created these 3 levels of add backs; the obvious, the one time expenses, and then the ones that require a bit more interpretation. So the very top of the list here are these a level one obvious add backs. We have things like charitable donations; obviously, that's purely discretionary nature. We have accounting expenses such as amortization and depreciation. And then we have one owner salary. And I know there are buyers out there that look at this and say well why are you adding back somebody's salary; like you need to pay yourself some money? But this is a standard add back that we always include and it's part of the standard definition for seller's discretionary earnings. The reason for this is how you pay yourself as an owner, how much you pay yourself, and the format you pay yourself is completely discretionary. You could in theory not pay yourself any salary and just take distributions from the company from the profits. Or you can pay yourself a very large salary and run all your payroll tax through that which will show up on the profit and loss statement. What we do for the owner's discretionary earnings we do add back one owner salary. But there is an exception to this and that's if there's multiple owners that are working full time on the business. Because we know that if there's multiple owners working on a business you can't add back all of their salary. You can only add back one. Did I explain that well Joe or does that need more? Joe: Let's go a little bit more. What happens; what do you do Mark if you have 2 owners that are working a combined 25 hours a week, one is doing customer service and logistics, and the other is doing sales and marketing. Do you add them both back? Mark: I would add both those back. Joe: Okay. Let's flip it up; let's say that one is doing sales, marketing, logistics, and the other is a developer. And the level of work that that developer does still only takes 15, 20 hours a week but it takes a different skill set than the average person has. Do you add them both back? Mark: No, I would not add both those back. Although we will discuss this in Level 3 add back. I might adjust that second owner salary depending on what they're getting. But the reason I wouldn't do it is because of the specialized nature of it. So what we're assuming here is that the buyer is a single person who is coming in and needs to run this business. I wouldn't expect most buyers to have developer skills to run a business. So maybe you do; if you do, that's great you're going to do really, really well. But most people can't be that sales and marketing plus developer role. I've done this for over a dozen years now. I've run across that skill set a handful of times. It's not very, very common. Joe: That's right. So those are the; even though these are just Level 1 add backs there are some complexities to it that require some attention to detail on the nuances of one business to the next. The only other things that are pretty obvious in there are personal meals and entertainment, travel, mobile home…mobile phones; everybody's got their own mobile phone that expense doesn't charge for. You've already got that expense. Things of that nature are pretty much Level 1 add backs. Jumping on the Level 2 add backs it's really focused on those one-time expenses; things like a trademark or a copyright, patents, things of that nature. And then there are some that are a little bit deeper like legal expenses and lawsuits and enforcement letters and things of that nature even the thing that we have to do often Mark which is referring potential clients; people that we do valuations for that are not using a kind of software. We'll refer them out to a bookkeeper. So in this situation Mark, tell me if we're on the same page. We will get a call somebody has got a great business but they've got 3 years of data in an Excel spreadsheet that is not using any accounting software. Or they might be using Fetcher and piecing different pieces together. I would refer them out to a bookkeeper like CapForge, MuseMinded, Stellar Accounting, Catching Clouds; one of those and get them on Quick Books or Xero. And generally, that's a one time expense for them to build that, put that data in the software in arrears maybe $1,500, $2,000. To me, that is without a doubt a one-time expense and an add back; would you agree with that? Mark: Yeah I would and I'm glad that we agreed because if we don't it's just going to be an absolute brawl on the podcast, right? Inaudible[00:11:27.2] here is fighting with the microphones. No, absolutely that would be a one time expense. It's something that does not carry forward. But we have a great example of that with somebody who's been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a while; Scott Deetz from Northbound Group. He's a strategic advisor who helps clients in a lot of ways. He does a fantastic job with his clients. Specifically a lot of Amazon stores but he also works with other companies as well. He does forecasting and a lot of preparation for an exit. And his fees are all one time expenses. Even though that you can see a monthly fee during that preparation, the goal is to prepare for an exit. So those are fees that get added back in the bottom line. So recasting books going back and trying to recast those books either in accrual format or just cleaning them up I would totally consider that to be a one time expense. As with the other things that you mentioned; the trademarks and the logo design, you shouldn't be punished for the expenses that are really necessary to be able to run the business or only occur once or will occur in the future. Joe: Yeah. And there is again always nuances; sometimes an owner is going to buy a new computer. But it's their new laptop that they use and they're going to keep that and it's not going to carry for you then that's a one time expense; things of that nature, a case by case basis from business. So again nuances, deep-diving into the business, no 2 are alike. Mark: I have been hearing you say this for a long time our own kind of sliding into this Level 3. But in Level 3 you always say math and logic Mark; it's for math and logic. What makes sense? How does the math work out? And look this actually works out for Level1 and Level 2 as well. You have to use math and logic. But Level 3 is where we start getting into the interpretation of different expenses, right? Because these are the grey area ones where maybe it's not as straightforward as saying amortization and depreciation; that's a pretty obvious add back. Charitable donations; pretty obvious add back. So let's go into this Level 3 and get some examples on a case by case basis. Here are things that we've seen in the past which; look at Quiet Light we've actually had some pretty big discussions with all of the advisors of Quiet Light that we have this large group chats and sometimes we've disagreed in trying to work out how we should actually treat these expenses. And I want to start out with one that Joe you and I have talked about a lot and that would be events, trade shows, and Mastermind fees; how do you handle those? Joe: I almost moved this to the bottom of the list so we didn't start off with one that is pretty tough and it was talked about a lot. This is a case by case basis. If somebody joins a Mastermind group in the trailing 12 months prior to selling their business and they pay $20,000 to join that group, it's a one time expense; absolutely an add back, it kind of moves up to Level 2. But let's say they also choose to go to an annual event that that Mastermind group has. And they do that at their own expense; let's say they go to Seattle, I was just at Blue Ribbon, those people that were in Blue Ribbon; I'm sorry at the Seattle event not all of them were at the Miami event just 6 months prior and so it's definitely a choice to go to the event or not. Some people never go. There are lots of people that are in eCommerceFuel that we've never met because they never go to any of the events. So the choice to go to an event, it's an expense that doesn't carry forward. It's one that I see as an add back. Our team has talked about it quite a bit; that's an add back. But there are other types of Masterminds and events; we'll call them events in this situation that are not add backs that you and I have talked about. So if you are an advertising agency or any kind of company that's going to these events to build your company brand and reputation even amongst the people that are part of the Mastermind it's integral to your business. Like us, we go and we sponsor. That's integral to our business; our business models. We are sponsoring, we're getting our own brand and our own name out there; that's not an add back. An ad agency does the same but might just be a member of the Mastermind or events and is doing training courses in free valuations or free testing things of that nature we would have to really dig down into that one and determine if it's an add back or not. And it's probably not an add back. But for the rest of the folks most likely an add back; the only adjustment you and I have talked about that is we'd have to look at and say logically does it make sense to add this back? Do we have 2 lines of add backs? Is it a business that's valued at 250,000 or 2.5 million? Sometimes you say you know what at this level it's not worth adding it back; let's just leave it alone it's only going to add you another $300 per month back to it and you can play with a multiple in that situation. Would you agree? Mark: Yeah I absolutely agree. You have to pick your battles on this and if you have to really fight to be able to justify an add back you should look at it and say is it really worth it? Like is it is a big enough expense where I'm going to gain enough potential value out of adding it back and making that argument. I want to throw a little wrinkle at you, Joe. We have not discussed this before and it's a question that I'd like to get your opinion on. The difference I see between these Mastermind fees, events, travel-related expenses would fall under this idea of is it a personal development or business development, right? I don't add back the business books I buy. The business books I buy are personal development and I consider that to be just for myself. Obviously, there's a business application for that. I want to become better at what I'm doing but I think that's more personal related. So the line I see is again this idea between is it development for business or is it personal development? So if I go to Pubcon without really putting Quiet Light name on it I'm just an attendee I would consider that to be a valid add back. Let's go into a scenario where you have an employee; let's say that you have somebody who works specifically as a content writer for you and is possibly doing SEO and you send them to MASCON because you want them to become better at SEO for the purpose of your business. How would you handle something like that? Joe: It's off the top my head not an add back. But then you've got to look at the history of the business because that's business development, right? You got to look at the history of it; is that something that they're going to do every year, are they're going to get new information every year and develop their skills, are they going to send different employees, have they done it for the last 2 or 3 years? You got to look at all those nuances again and determine whether or not it's an add back. But because it falls in that business development versus personal development I think you and I know everybody on the team would lean towards no that's not an add back. Mark: I would agree. So again this is where you have to kind of take a fine scalpel here and kind of slice this up and really understand what's going on behind this add back. And again as you went out with this Joe math and logic and I think reason as well. You have to be sort of reasonable with some of these so that it's not just you're going through; sometimes I see sellers come back with their own add back schedules and they're super aggressive and every last dime is trying to be added back. And it's a question at some point where you have to ask them what can we really say is a reasonable add back versus just being as aggressive as possible? Joe: Right. So let's take that scalpel and dig down into a P & L for instance; of course we're not doing it live here, but one of the things that that when you peel back the different layers that we always ask the question okay you're spending a lot of money on advertising here; what type of credit card are you using for that advertising? And then are you getting points back on that, what are you doing with those points? 9 times out of 10 people are doing cashback credit cards or converting them over to travel but they're pushing all that over on the personal side of that's an owner benefit. It's income, right? You're getting cash back, you spend $10,000 you get $400 back. If you spend $10,000 a month on advertising and you get that $400 back and you slide it over to your personal side and it never shows up on your profit and loss statement we need to look at it closely. It's an add back. You can multiply that times whatever number you want and then make the decision, right Mark whether it's worth it to add that back or not. Jason and I had a listing that we worked on last fall where there were about $24,000 in cashback points added up over the course of 12 months and it was very, very measurable; clear and distinct because that person spent a lot of money on advertising plus he bought used inventory that was going to be refurbished. And he bought them from different places on the web. And all of that was done with a credit card. All of that was converted to cashback points that moved over to his personal side; amounted to about $25,000 on an annual basis. It's a significant number. The business was listed at a 4 time multiple. It was cash in his pocket so we did add that back and it bumped the valuation by $100,000. If we're talking about a business that's $4M but that amounts to $3,000 then maybe you don't add it back. You just got to play around with those numbers a little bit and again use more math and logic there. Mark: Yeah and I think here that the key that I would look at would be the consistency of it. If you're advertising budget is over $100,000 a month for example and you're putting that on your Amex gold card and part of your strategy is look I'm getting some margin from the points I'm getting back; that's pretty obvious in that category of its part of your existing business model. But like you said if you have just kind of a small amount of points, it's probably not worth the effort to put that in there and try and justify that. So I think that's pretty reasonable. Joe one question that we hear a decent amount would be website redesigns and we can also throw in here product development or even in the SaaS world development on a SaaS product. Why don't we start to unpack some of these and we'll start with the website redesigns. Obviously, most people who have a web-based business unless you're purely Amazon have a website and part of that is you're going to have to redesign the website every now and then. I mean there are some sites out there that have look exactly the same since 2000 but most businesses do update that and those can be expensive. You can easily drop 10, 20, 30, $40,000 on that if not more. So how would you approach website redesigns or website redevelopments? Joe: I would look at the history in the P & L to get a clue of the way the business has been run because that's the way it's going to be operated in the future. And if there's never been a website redesign and it's on a good current up to date platform like Shopify and the business is trending in all the right directions then; obviously there's been a website redesign because that's the point of this add back so let's say that it's been done in the last 12 months but had never been done before and the business is 7 or 8 years old and it's just been put on a new platform and they spent $20,000 on it I would say that; and I have in the past done 100% add-back on that website redesign. But again it varies from business to business. If I'm looking at a business that's operated like Quiet Light Brokerage just by example you have a tendency to redesign the website often. I think there's been 3 or 4 versions of it in the last 7 years that I've been with Quiet Light. So, in that case, it's either simply not an add back or you do some math and let's say you're going to redesign a website every 3 years you might take that cost; $10,000 website redesign and add back 50% of it or a third of it and things of that nature. Because if it happened in the last 12 months it's not an expense that's going to happen in the next 12 months so there has to be some mathematical adjustment there. And again math and logic; look how often it's been redesigned, do the math on when in the future would you redesign again, and just do partial adjustment more often than not. Mark: Yeah, I would agree 100%. And the thing to look for here obviously if it's on the last 12 months it probably isn't going to get looked at too closely. But I think you have to look at why. Like the Quiet Light website gets redesigned a decent amount and that's simply because I get anxious about stuff like that. That's just kind of what I do. I'm always tweaking; always thinking that I should dust scraps and start it over again. And so I actually do think with Quiet Light it's mostly discretionary in nature but again this reasonableness needs to come in. Joe: Not always discretionary but it takes 12 months every time that you start. Mark: It's absolutely ridiculous. Joe: Why don't you touch on product development? It's interesting you bring that up. I've got a physical products e-commerce business and I'm developing new products; do I get to add that cost back? Mark: Yeah I think again we need to use math and logic here, a little bit of reasonableness, take a look at what type of business you are in. Here's the thing about e-commerce; Chad Reuben when he was on the podcast about a year ago mentioned this, product development is the lifeblood of most e-commerce businesses; you rarely, rarely run across a business that is truly evergreen with its product or you never have to iterate. Apple comes out with an iPhone every year. Android products are constantly coming out with a new phone every year. Car companies constantly come out with a new car every single year. Product development is the lifeblood of businesses. So on that note no I don't think that you can add back product development costs. I do think maybe if you're coming out with like a large truly one time sort of burst maybe I would look at it. Joe: Maybe if there's a mold, right? If you paid $5,000 for a mold of that product that mold is going to last 10, 20 years perhaps. That mold maybe partial add back but yeah I'm 100% on the same page; product development is the lifeblood of a business. The molds thing is so rare; 105 businesses I think I've sold in the last 7 years and I think maybe only Sean van der Wilt's business has actual molds that are part of it and that he owned. In other cases, it's generally the manufacturer that has the mold anyway. So yeah adding back product development expenses can't really do it. What about the SaaS development? We're not all e-commerce here; we're selling content and SaaS and things of that nature as well. You've got a developer that's been doing some certain projects within the last 12 months; are you adding that back? Is that black and white? Mark: It is not black and white but I do think that if you are looking at for example your initial build of the software that's going to be very intense, very cost-intensive. That I think could be added back. Regular maintenance, regular feature updates; absolutely not because a SaaS business needs to have updates, needs to have new features added. If you're going to redevelop the entire SaaS product from the ground up; maybe you're switching technology stacks, that's something where I would take a look at that and again reason and logic need to really…math and logic really need to reign with this. But generally speaking no; just as product development is the lifeblood of an e-commerce business, software development is the lifeblood of a SaaS business. Joe: We are 100% on the same page. There is no question about it. Mark: No fights here, thank goodness. Joe: Yeah. We've got 3 points left and really the last 2 points I think are ones that get missed most often and can add a tremendous amount of value to the business. But the first one of the 3 here is pretty obvious and maybe we could have we actually talked about moving this up into Level 1 but it's a repaid relative. I sold a business a couple of years ago where the owner of the business paid his brother to do customer service. They paid him $20 an hour for 20 hours a week worth of work. I talked to the brother. I talked about his job and what he did. He said yeah I really only put in about 5 hours a week. Most of what I do is automated; it's canned responses with customer service. And so we talked about the work and the level of detail there and just added some logic there and some math and said look you are grossly overpaid. Your brother loves you. I'm going to suggest that he fires you; and again this is just before Christmas, of course, he didn't. Mark: Oh my you told him to fire his brother. We've talked about this before. Joe: I know. It was a $10,000 add back or whatever the number was. So we just did some math, right? We said alright how much does it cost to get a really good high-quality virtual assistant; $4 or $5 an hour. Okay, let's double that. We know you're only working 5 hours a week but we're going to go with you 20 hours a week times whatever the number is and we're going to add it back. So instead of the $20 an hour times 20 hours we took $10 an hour on those 20 hours a week and we added back the adjustment there. It's in black in white in the add back section with an explanation of why. So math and logic applied to a situation like that; that overpaid relative and it absolutely works and is am add back. And it has to be a big enough number to be an add back. In this case, the total add back was a pretty sizable number. So pretty clear there in my view would you agree with that on Mark? Mark: Yeah I had a guy who had a really cool business. His mom was doing his bookkeeping and he was paying her $250,000 a year for her bookkeeping services. Joe: What? Mark: That's a pretty expensive bookkeeper. That's a pretty obvious case of look it's a relative; he's paying his mom good for him, what a great son; better son than I am to my mom, and pretty obvious add back. And look I'm going to tie in something that we had from Level 1 here and that is where you have 2 owners and you brought up the example one owner is business development and marketing, sales and marketing and the other one is a developer. And I said well we should take a look at that developer side probably and probably not add back his salary but you've got to take a look at how much is he getting paid. I'm dealing with a client who has that sort of set up and the developer side; they're both getting paid the same amount of money and it's basically the profits of the business. We're going to add back in a reasonable and a pretty generous salary for a replacement development. And that's kind of the way that we would look at that is what is a replacement cost? You don't want to be super aggressive on that. It's got to be reasonable. It might be a little bit generous to say here's what the replacement of this person would cost. So you can do that with relatives. It can get a little bit tricky. I had one company that I dealt with where literally the company was basically run by this guy's family which brought up some issues with the transferability of the business. Because there were so many people involved that were family related but they were all getting these big fat paychecks. And so if we had gone to market; we didn't go to market with that one but we would have had to go in and try to find reasonable replacement costs for most of these people which will be then a little tricky. Joe: Yeah. Look, I can assure all sellers out there; all business owners that are smart enough to do some thinking and planning in advance of a sale, your buyers are going to be intelligent people that are going to be thorough and diligent. And doing that logical adjustment that Mark just talked about for that developer who's your business partner that is a non-transferable skill you've got to hire that out. You're just going to have to do that and it's going to help build trust and help you achieve your goals in getting your business sold. If we have to push the multiple if it makes sense because there's other amazing trends in the business then we can push the multiple a little higher as long as it's still within a reasonable area. The next add back is one that I just did this year as an example with Mike Jackness when we sold Color It. And I'm going to go ahead and mention the podcast series that Mike and I did because I think it's invaluable for both buyers and sellers to listen to and Mark I'm going to just tell you right now I think that you and I did a decent job in doing the intro for the podcast and then me doing an interview with Mike on our podcast. Mike did a much better job on his podcast. So I'm going to point people… Mark: They're actually pros at this. They're very good at it. We're just kind of fly by the seat of their pants. Joe: Yeah. He did an amazing job. And he actually did a series of 4 in total; 2 of them were with me and the one at the beginning one at the end was with his staff, his staff down in the Philippines before and after the sale. So he went through the whole arc. But it's episode 247 of the EcomCrew Podcast and the first one was Preparing Your Business For Sale and the second one was What It Was Like Going Through Due Diligence And Actually Getting It Sold. Now one of the things that we focused on in Mike's add back schedule was cost of goods sold. Let me give some just general numbers here; broad examples, these aren't actually from his business but let's say that what he did do was he renegotiated the cost of goods sold on one particular ASIN. He could have done it on more if he had planned in advance of selling his business instead of deciding to sell his business because he was emotionally ready to move on. We could have waited another year and he would have had a much more valuable business. But we didn't do that because he was ready. So in this situation again it's magic and loss; math and logic; oh my goodness, see this is why Mike's podcast is better…math and logic. Mark: Well I'm sure a lot of buyers out there look at sleaze and say this doesn't look like magic; it doesn't make sense. Joe: I said magic and loss; oh man, oh man. We're not editing that out. Chris, don't touch that. Alright, so Mike renegotiated the cost of goods sold on 1 ASIN. The reduction in cost was it came down $1.60. It was already on the books. He already had product in Amazon FBA and it was shipping and it's been in FBA already for 2 months. What we did; it was a $1.60, so what we did was we looked at the sales per month of that ASIN for the other 10 months going back in the P & L took that dollar amount and multiplied it times $1.60. Let's just say for simple math it was 1,000 units a month, right? I say simple math but here I am looking to the other calculator. If you got 1,000 units a month times $1.60 we're looking at 1,600 dollars a month times 10 months it's a $16,000 mathematical and absolutely legitimate add back; math and logic there. That times the multiple applied to the business; let's just say if it's 3 times that's a sizable add back, it's $54,000, no, $48,000. How's my math? Mark: We'll 48,000. On this I want to go back to where we started this conversation; why do we do these add backs at all? Again it's the idea that we want to show a buyer they're expected return on investment and we want to show a set number standardized approach so that you can interject your own assumptions. And the reason that this is completely valid to do even though you can take a look and say well the actual expenses were not this is because this is the forward-looking numbers that we know are going; the way that the business is going to be run in the future. Joe: That 10 months of expenses there will not carry forward so we needed to make an adjustment for that. Mark: Exactly the only thing we would need to verify would be in due diligence the supplier is going to give the same or similar terms to the new buyer. That would be the only thing that we really need to confirm there. So I think this makes complete sense. Joe: 100%. Mark: Did you get any pushback from buyers on that? Joe: Not an ounce and the buyer that bought the business is; I mean he went to Harvard, he's a very smart guy, he's bought 4 other businesses from Quiet Light Brokerage, and he understands all of this. And he's got investors that review everything so no pushback at all. Mark: Yeah. Alright, next one on your list you have here reduced fees times units sold. Joe: Look, everyone listening that's considering a sale of their business this last one is why you cannot have one conversation with a business broker for 30 minutes and decide that that's the one you've got to go with because if they're incredibly good at sales they're going to talk you into something in 30 minutes. Now I shouldn't say that because; well, look you've done research on Quiet Light, you've listened to the podcast, you've listened to different examples so maybe you can but you got to dig deep. This happened to me recently in like the third conversation on having in a review of the profit and loss statement. This is why we review profit and loss statements. We learned that the owner of this particular business that I'm talking about repackaged; worked on repackaging all of his product SKUs and in doing so it changed the level of pick pack and ship at Amazon. So he was at let's say Level 5 and he came down at Level 4; now these are costs. They're not called that but his fees at Amazon went down. Let's call it a dollar. So instead of $5 pick pack and ship fee, it was $4 because it was a smaller package, lighter package, things of that nature. So he did that. Again let's go to the same thing we did here with Jackness's business. He did it in the last 2 months, it's on the books for the last 2 months, so we're going to the prior 12 months and went okay how many units did you sell during those prior 12 months or 10 months times a dollar per unit and we're doing an add back for that because that adjusted expense in the past went away and it does not carry forward; same thing, different scenario. Mark: Yup, absolutely. So I think there's 2 ways when we're looking at some of these kind of I don't want to creative add backs but the ones that require a little bit more explanation. The one thing that I would just encourage people to keep in mind is that when we see some of these add backs which go back and recast numbers there are some situations where it makes sense to rather than going back and doing that add back bake in some of the value into the multiple as opposed to the trailing 12 months. If we keep in mind that the basic approach to estimate in value in a basic valuation approach would be your trailing 12 months discretionary earnings times some multiple, it doesn't matter if you increase your discretionary earnings by 10% or increase your multiple by 10%; the result on your valuation is going to be the same. And so I think there is a little bit of discretion and strategy that needs be taken into account by both the broker and the seller when it comes to determining where do we want to get this value in. The thing you need to always keep in mind is are you actually offering real value to a potential buyer? Is this really going to be valuable for the forward-looking future for that; I don't know if there's a backward-looking future, for the future of the new owner of the business and where are they going to get that value? So you might be hearing this and thinking this is pretty complex I don't know if these things would be really a legitimate add back or not. Look if you find this difficult that's because some of it is and some of it does require discussion. And as I said at the beginning we have these discussions at Quiet Light all the time. We will share something with the entire team and say what do you guys think this? Here's what I'm thinking, I should have it added back. And sometimes we disagree but we always are able to figure out where that line should be. So I'm going to just throw this invite out; if you have a question on whether or not something would be an add back ask us. Hound us and say what do you think of this; do you think this would be a legitimate add back or not? And that would be on the buy-side or on the sell-side. If you're look at an opportunity and maybe with another broker or directly with the seller and they're adding something back and want to know what our thoughts are let us know. We'd love to weigh in on it. Joe: Let's route another invite there and let's find a way to do an actual valuation; we'll do video as well as audio. We'll remove the client's names. We'll just use first name and we won't use the business name. And we'll do it sort of Mike Jackness, Ecom Crew Under The Hood Valuation and record it so everybody can hear the process we go through. Man that being in a 2 or 3 part series because it's such a long in-depth, detailed process. The only thing I want to throw is that we are developing webinars here at Quiet Light that will be up on the new 48-month long redesign that Mark's been working on. Yes that's a little wise-ass comment there but the webinars will be up, they will be available in detail for you folks to dig deeper and see us go through some of this add back schedule in the process of doing one that is titled "What's a Legitimate Add Back?" and all of this will be in webinar format where you can see actual profit and loss statements and whatnot. Mark: Sounds great. I look forward to doing those. I don't have anything else on add backs. I think we've just covered the entire topic as deeply as you possibly could actually no we could probably talk for another couple of episodes in some of these things but I don't have anything else to add for this one. Do you have anything Joe? Joe: No, we're good. It was great having 2 very special guests on the podcast; one much more special. According to Andrew Youderian, you're special. Mark: I like that guy. He's such a good guy, isn't he? Joe: Andy Youderian. Has anybody reached out to him with my little Easter egg stuff that I did on the video? But we're not showing the video yet, right? Mark: I had and actually we are showing the video and that's something for you guys to know. Subscribe to us on YouTube at Quiet Light Academy. These podcasts are now up in video form so you can look at our pretty faces while you listen to us argue about add backs. I don't think anyone has reached out to him about the little Easter egg we had in that podcast episode. Because I talked to him recently and he didn't bring it up. Joe: So for those that have no idea what we're talking about and have stuck with us at the end of this podcast here's the deal. I was driving down the road listening to the Quiet Light Podcast where Mark had Andrew on with state of the e-commerce. Mark: One of the best episodes I think we ever did. Joe: Whatever you say Mark. I think this is the best episode we've ever done. Alright, so Andrew says yeah you guys have been doing a really good job. I got to tell you Mark I think you have a bit of an edge over Joe. Because Mark and I always competing with who's got the best episodes and the most downloads. And I swear I almost; I had to pull over I was laughing so out. It was so, so funny. He's a bit of a prankster. So I figured I'd get him back. And so I had an Incredible Exit Series on, we had somebody; actually it was an Incredible Acquisition, right? Karl Selle bought Smart And Fresh and so we had Karl on a podcast about that and during the podcast I pretended that our producer Chris interrupted us and handed me a sheet that it was kind of an emergency, he was looking to get in touch with somebody named Andy Youderian. I could not pronounce Andrew's name properly. But for those that go to the YouTube channel you'll see that I have an EcommerceFuel t- shirt on and that the EcommerceFuel podcast is in the background; a mouse pad is in the background. So clearly I know Andrew Youderian. I want to call him Youderainan from now on. Clearly I know Andrew. My kind would call those Easter eggs. I think that's what they're officially called in Marvel movies. So I just threw in a few Easter eggs there. It was kind of fun. We did get one person that sent an e-mail to me and he goes I think the person that your producer is looking for is Andrew Youderian for EcommerceFuel. And I said well that was kind of a joke. I had to send a note back. But it was kind of fun. Mark: Well he was right though. It is the person we're looking for. We have an Easter egg coming up in one of the movie quotes so you guys have to dig deep on these movie quotes. And I don't know which episode it's going to be live on. Listen to the different intros. There's going to be one that you're going to have a really hard time finding but I'll tell you what I want you to find this one whenever it airs. That's really, really difficult and I will get with our producer next week's podcast and make sure that we give you a little hint as to which podcast to listen to for this movie quote because it's just an absolute gem. Joe: Awesome. Let's wrap it up with that. Links and Resources: ECom Crew Episode Quiet Light Academy YouTube
Greetings from Jackson, Wyoming! I'm out on the road doing some roadshow stuff for EcomCrew but will be making a side trip to Montana to visit my good friend Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel. Spoiler alert! If you haven't seen the 5 Minute Pitch, I'd tell you to stop reading and head over to watch a couple of episodes, especially the finale, on the official YouTube channel. There you'll see Kim Meckwood, owner and inventor of Click and Carry, in action. Kim is the season 1 winner of 5 Minute Pitch. Along with the $50K prize money, all of the judges will be giving her a week-long mentorship session at the end of July. I caught up with her after she won and we had a very insightful discussion, particularly on overcoming and learning from past business struggles. In this episode, you'll learn: Kim's experience as a woman entrepreneur How she got her start in business How she and her business has been since winning the 5 Minute Pitch Her early struggles (using her 401K to pay for a surge of orders from QVC contract) This episode is part of our Women's Month celebration. We'd love to see more women in the ecommerce industry, so if you are a female business owner, head over to www.ecomcrew.com/underthehood and tell us your story. We'd love to feature you on the podcast. Watch Kim's winning pitch on Season 1 of the 5 Minute Pitch. Or subscribe to the podcast to listen to all the pitches and deliberations while in the car or at the gym. Join season two of the 5 Minute Pitch by filling out and submitting the application form. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them below. Happy selling!
It's a jungle out there. Today we invite you to reflect on the state of the internet world we live in as entrepreneurs and the impact e-commerce can have on hundreds of thousands of people. One of the most interesting trends we are seeing in the arena is the service companies popping up to support the thousands of Amazon merchants out there. Today's guest, who quickly turned his back on a career in engineering in his twenties, started dabbling in Amazon sales until he came up with the idea for Jungle Scout just before taking off on a three-year world tour. He talks to us about how he spent those years living the true entrepreneur experience while actually building his now 100 person company. Jungle Scout searches, captures, analyzes and refines billions of data points from Amazon to deliver the most accurate data in the industry. His 200,000 plus customers were all clearly in need of his merchant scaling tools. Jungle Scout also offers numerous free educational resources to give young entrepreneurs everything they need to succeed. Episode Highlights: How Greg convinced his wife to give everything up to travel the world. The hesitation, the results, and the payoff of that path. The employee structure of Jungle Scout. The company's original design and what it has evolved to today. Stories that stand out as models of success for Jungle Scout. The Five Minute Pitch – what it is and how it's helping entrepreneurs succeed. How the Jungle Scout scholarship program is motivating young entrepreneurs. What's coming up for Jungle Scout. The company's new initiatives for bringing ease into scouting suppliers and merchandise. How his products have created friction with people in the business but also brought them in as clients. Transcription: Mark: Alright allow me to relax philosophically here for just a minute and I invite you to reflect on just how impactful our current era is with the Internet. Back at Traffic & Conversion in February, I actually hear Richard Branson talk about what they would do to get attention and PR; crazy stunts, parachuting into places and doing these incredible things just to be able to impact large volumes of people. Well as online entrepreneurs we have that at our fingertips and can do that often from our bedrooms just by putting up a good marketing campaign online. But we have the ability to impact thousands of lives and have this network effect as well of these thousands of lives impacting other people's lives. And I looked at where we're at with the Internet today and I think one of the most influential areas are all the service companies that are popping up and SaaS companies popping up to service the Amazon merchants that are out there. And I'd say by far one of the leaders of the pack is Jungle Scout. They—most of everybody that is in the Amazon world, you know who Jungle Scout is. They're kind of ubiquitous with this idea of product research. Joe, you got to talk to Jungle Scout in this week's podcast. Joe: Yeah. Greg Mercer founded Jungle Scout just a few years ago; 4 ½, 5 years ago, an interesting story. Look we talked all about how he came up with a concept, even where he met his wife Lisa, how we started the business, travelled with his wife Lisa for 3 years overseas while growing Jungle Scout. He has only settled back in Austin for the last year and a half, and the size of the company. And then really it was about his entrepreneurial journey. And then we touched on some of the key features in Jungle Scout and some of the other things that Greg has done with his good fortune like scholarships that you can find on the Jungle Scout website and in the show notes here. You know being entrepreneurs and having an easier time impacting people one on one or directly is something that we know here at Quiet Light because we're fortunate enough to be in a situation where we do work one on one with most people. And we know what it means when they sell their business or buy a business and get to stay home and see their kids more. We talked about that a little bit with Greg and like most entrepreneurs he started Jungle Scout to make money. But now that he makes great money that relieves the stress, right? We all want to have money in our bank account to relieve the financial stress but the big thing that fills his cup is the impact that he's having on individual lives. And he gets to hear about that impact when he goes out to conferences and they have a booth like out at Prosper and people come up to him and say listen this is my story, this is how Jungle Scout changed my life. And Greg says quite honestly look it wasn't Jungle Scout; it was you, it was your effort, it was your risk, your reward. Jungle Scout was just a tool that you used. So he's very humble about that but a great guy. Just a good human and I think that there are 2 or 3 things that come out of this podcast. First and foremost you get to hear a great entrepreneur story. He didn't go to school for business yet here he is running a business with 100 the least. What it's like to travel all over the world with your wife? It's right for some people, it's wrong for others. And then just the good things that he's doing with Jungle Scout Scholars and then all the features that Jungle Scout has, and the scariest one. And folks you've got to listen all the way through because we talk more about it at the very end. This is not a pitch for Jungle Scout. It's more of a story of entrepreneurial success. But you can literally find—can I give this away Mark? Can we give it out, too much information; what do you think? Mark: Oh no it's a great tease so get to the end. Joe: You can find your favorite product on Amazon and then use the Jungle Scout tool to find out who the manufacturer is in China. It is scary. But like Greg said it doesn't mean you're going to be successful. We know that all great ideas don't achieve success. There's lots of motes around these great listings on Amazon so it's no guarantee of success even though you find them in [inaudible 00:05:10.9]. But, great podcast, great guy, looking for to get to know him over the years as well. Mark: So he's down in Austin, right? Joe: Yes he is. Mark: Is he going to come to our meet-up coming up at the end of May? Joe: Yes he is. Mark: And when and where is that meet-up? For anyone in the Austin area or who has always wanted to go to Austin area, this might be an awesome opportunity to meet Joe. I probably won't be there. Amanda will be there as well and some really, really good people are showing up to this as well. Joe: Yeah everybody that we've worked with over the years that's down in Austin are getting an invite and hopefully [inaudible 00:05:44.1] groups is going to go. Actually, one person replied today and said thanks for inviting all my friends. It's like you're throwing a party for my friends. I appreciate it. It was pretty funny. And that was RJ at 101. It's going to be May 29th at Oasis at Lake Travis from 6 to 9 pm and it's just drinks nor dares and coming out with friends. Mark: Awesome, and we're going to have a page up on the Quiet Light Brokerage website. We're going to make sure it's included in the e-mails that get sent out. And also on the show notes for this podcast so that you can RSVP if you do want to attend. We would love to see, we'd love to host it for the night; bring a friend, bring lots of friends. It should be a few hours of just really good networking and getting to know some really key players in the space. So please do show up. But now let's get to the good stuff [inaudible 00:06:27.7] Joe: Let's do it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe here at Quiet Light Brokerage and today we've got another great guest on the Quiet Light Podcast. His name is Greg Mercer. Greg, how are you doing today? Greg: Joe I'm doing fantastic. Thank you very much for having me on and it's going to be fun to talk to you. Joe: Founder of Jungle Scout and many other things; a very impressive guy at a very young age. I just looked at your LinkedIn profile, listened to a couple of things on YouTube, and I saw your wife talking about you as well which was all positive by the way. Greg: Oh, that's good to hear. Joe: Well you know the drill, we don't have a whole lot of fancy introductions. So for those that don't know you and don't know the Jungle Scouts can you give a little bit of background on yourself and the business itself? Greg: I'd be happy to. So it's probably most relevant to rewind back to my college days real quick. I went to school to be a civil engineer and graduated. I got a job working as a civil engineer and I just didn't like it at all. I want to become an entrepreneur so I tried a number of different things. But the 1st thing I had a little bit of success with was selling physical products on Amazon. And that's ultimately what led me to quit my job. I was able to kind of replace my income by doing that. My wife and I actually at that point sold all our belongings and started traveling around the world and living out at Air B&B's and running our business from there. And one thing led to another and I—the biggest problem that I had with scaling my Amazon business was finding new products to sell. So I had a number of products up, some of them are doing really well, some weren't doing really well. I didn't really know why some were doing well and some weren't. And what it came down to was the amount of demand there was on Amazon for these products. So being kind of an engineer by background and a very data driven person, I was able to create some algorithms to estimate how well all products on Amazon sell. And that was ultimately how Jungle Scout got started. So I'd never started a software company before but I 1st built a simple extension. I was like no one will probably ever buy this thing but if nothing else I can just use it for myself. And it turns out we were able to get people to buy it because if you fast forward all the way today there's about roughly 100 people that work in Jungle Scout. We have over 200,000 customers so it's grown quite a bit since the 1st day when I didn't think anyone would buy it. Joe: That is absolutely crazy; 100 employees and did you say, 200,000 customers? Greg: Yup over 200,000. Joe: That's amazing. So I want to talk about a few things, I want to talk about you travelled the world with your wife while starting Jungle Scout so that's probably the most important thing. I love the fact that you went to school for civil engineering and then took a completely different path in the sense as an entrepreneur. But then you were able to start it as an entrepreneur while traveling the world and with your wife of all things. And then I want to talk a little bit about what Jungle Scout does and a couple of the other things that you're doing because of the good fortune you've had in the business through Jungle Scout. But let's get personal for a minute. I mean you are what 30, 31 years old I'm guessing? It looks like— Greg: 31. Joe: Right. So you've been at this for a long time. Did you meet your wife in college? Greg: I did actually so yeah we both went to school at Auburn and that's how we met. Joe: Amazing. And she actually was willing to sell everything and travel the world with you or was it her idea to do that? Greg: I think it was my idea. I had read Tim Ferris' book 4-Hour Workweek and I was like well this is pretty cool. Instead of living here we could go live in all these cool exotic places in much less money. And so I was like Elizabeth we should go and try this. And she was like yeah you're an idiot. We're not doing that. But I kept on bringing it up over the months and she's always really enjoyed travel. I think her biggest hesitation at the time was she was working for Target and was on a pretty fast crew path. And I think that's where she envisioned her career moving forward. So I think that was her biggest hesitation. It was like man I'm kind of going to give up my career a little bit, or at least put it on hold if we're going to do this for a year or 2 or 3 years or whatever. So I think that was her biggest hesitation but she's like you only live once let's go for it. And yeah we both ended up loving it. We did it for 3 whole years so we both ended up loving it a lot. Joe: And you launched Scott but just before you took off for a while you were over in Southeast Asia? Greg: Yeah it was actually just before I took off. I like the week before we took off. Joe: And how many years ago was that? Greg: That was is January of 2015, so 4 ½ years ago. Joe: So really you've run the business for the 1st 3 years of its existence by traveling. Greg: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Now the 100 employees that you have are they mostly remote, mostly they're in Austin, whereabouts in the world are they? Greg: When we started the company it was fully remote. I was traveling around so I didn't have an office to hire this people in. So we are fully remote. In January of 2018 is when I moved to Austin. That's where I live now. Since then we've been doing a lot of our hiring in Austin. So I think about maybe 40 of the people are in Austin now and the rest of the team is either remote. And then we also have an office in Vancouver. And then we opened up an office in Shenzhen in China about 6 months ago. So some of the team is there now. Joe: Amazing. So we'll talk about what some of those offices do for Jungle Scout and the subscribers in a bit. Now that you've gone through college, marriage, travelled the world, entrepreneur, you worked with directly and indirectly and inspire a lot of young entrepreneurs all over the world. Is selling everything, packing up, and traveling the world something you would say you got to do to that young man or woman that has the opportunity and is not tied down to things of this nature? Greg: You know I'd say it's not for everyone. And for me, it'll probably be like one of the most fond memories of my whole life. I kind of go in through a period. I think I learned a ton about myself. I met a lot of really interesting people. I learned a lot about different cultures. I think we visited roughly 30 different countries. We would spend about a month sometimes 2 months in each country. So when you spend like a month or 2 somewhere sometimes a little longer but you get like a pretty good sense of just kind of like what day to day life is and what the culture is really about much more than like on a weeklong vacation. So during that, I got to just learn a ton about all these different countries, fascinating things that a lot of countries do like very well. I was able to bring back individual things. I think certain countries do very well so that was really cool. So I'd say it's definitely not for everyone. I think to a lot of people it's very stressful. You're moving all around the world and you don't have any kind of—or we didn't have any kind of a home base. So with all that being said it's definitely for everyone. But if you're interested in it and that seems like something that you'd enjoy I would definitely recommend for you to try. Joe: Is there a particular book that you would have and go to? Is it Tim Ferris' 4-Hour Workweek or is there a great travel one? Greg: Probably. Joe: Probably; okay. Greg: Yeah I'll probably just do the Tim Ferris' 4-Hour Workweek. It's a little bit outdated now. I think it was written over a decade ago now but the spirit is still the same. Joe: I'm reading one of his books now and I'm looking around like my office here. I don't see it but it's the tools to tighten switches. It is one giant book. The great stuff all from the podcast off from those he's taken over the years and a lot of the 4-Hour Workweek stuff as well. It's funny we've had Bill D'Alessandro on the podcast. Do you know who Bill is? Greg: The name rings a bell. Joe: He's from South Charlotte and he runs a consumer products group down at Charlotte. He does a lot of speaking, very close friends with Andrew Youderian from eCommerceFuel and Bill had that same 4-Hour Workweek life at one point and do the same thing working from a beach in Southeast Asia or somewhere. And we talked about this on the podcast now he has staff, an office, a warehouse; in many ways just like you. And he finds that he actually has more freedom now than before because he's got people that can actually do everything for him instead of having virtual assistants that he has to check in with every day. Greg: Right. Joe: So it is not for everyone like you say but certainly something to explore. It's not for me and my wife. I was in your shoes once upon a time when I was living in the frigid cold of Portland Maine for those folks that are listening out from Portland Maine. And this is back in the day when I heard a commercial for GoToMeeting.com I'm like what? What is that? And I went across the hall—I signed up for a free trial. I went across the hall to my other office and log in get the free thing and then go to my PC is what it was. It was a derivative of that. And I log into my PC from across the hall, this is 2nd nature now but I was amazed. I was like this is incredible. I went home and I told Christiana and said hey we're going to Florida for the winter. And she said we are not, you're an idiot. [inaudible 00:15:35.1] we did it for 5 years and then we got the hell out of Maine because it was too cold. Sorry for those folks that are still there. Were in North Carolina now and do love it. But this isn't about me it's about Greg Mercer and Jungle Scout. So let's talk about Jungle Scout and what it does. I know what it does. I've used it a little bit in the past. I know a lot of clients that bought and sold business with Quiet Light have used it. So can you just touch on what it does—let's talk about the progression of it; what it originally did and what it's evolved to today. Greg: Yeah. That's a good way to frame it. So it started out as just a Chrome extension. So most of the listeners are probably familiar with Chrome extensions which is a little add on that you install into your Chrome browser. And what it did is when you were visiting Amazon and you were on the listing or on a search page, you'd click this little Chrome extension and you'd see a little pop up. And on that pop up there was a number of different pieces of data. But the one that people care about the most is the estimated sales data. So that's what I was talking earlier; developing these algorithms that can estimate how well any product on Amazon is selling. Back then it was pretty poor accuracy, today a pretty high degree of accuracy. So that's how it started. Shortly thereafter we launched a web application and the primary functionality in there was again to find good opportunities on Amazon or find out how well things were selling. And that's kind of been transitioning over the years. We now have keyword research functionality. We now have functionality to help you find high quality suppliers or factories. Actually launching in 2 weeks is functionality to help you launch your product on Amazon. And then by the end of the year, it's going to be everything to help you kind of like manage and optimize your Amazon business as well. So the way we like or our mission here at Jungle Scout is to really empower and inspire Amazon entrepreneurs with the tools and resources they need to be successful. So we're building all that into our software but then we also have just tons of free resources in education and a whole bunch of other stuff just to help people be more successful on Amazon. Joe: Yeah I've looked at some of that both on your website on LinkedIn on YouTube. You are all over the place. It's pretty impressive the reach that you've got and the folks that saying you are praising Scott Voelker is somebody we know in common does that well and does it all the time. I love the empower people approach and to fulfill their dreams not only the staff that you have but the people that used to program, the 200,000 or so subscribers that you have. A lot of people in your—let's call your world, I want to call you an influencer because I think that's what you are Greg. So in your world, a lot of folks say I've made X many millionaires. You've heard a lot of stories over the years of the way that the tools that Jungle Scout has and provides to people how it's changed their lives, can you think of anything or anyone that stands out and what an impact it had in terms of with their Amazon business and how it changed their lives? Greg: I can think of a whole bunch of stories. And actually, I was—I think the last time we saw each other was at Prosper Show. And going to conferences and stuff like that it's always a great chance that I talk to all these customers in real life. So like probably a dozen times throughout that 2 or 3 day conference whatever it is like someone came up to me very emotional a few different times in tears but like just telling me this life story about how they found Jungle Scout and how it helped them create this business. And that's like a really, really special thing to be a part of. I never would've thought that in a million years like starting this business that people would come up to me in tears being like—just telling a story about how they were at a really low spot or they hated their job or whatever else and especially starting the business is what changed their life. A lot of them kind of attribute or say like Jungle Scout is kind of what caused that or encouraged them to do so or empowered them with the tools to have the confidence to do so. So yeah I mean there are tons of stories but I think most of them have like a ton of things in common, at least the ones that are most memorable are impactful to me. Joe: And it's the impactfulness I think that is most interesting. I think that with success and some of the things that we do, and you do, and Scott does and Mike Jackness another friend in common it's A. being a good human and helping people. There's peace of mind that you get with money in your bank account but there's pure joy, satisfaction, and other things that are so intangible by helping others and having people come up to you like that and say what you've created has changed my life, what you did changed my life, what you said, the way you helped me change my life and very impactful stuff. Greg: Yeah very much so and if you would have kind of—if I would really listen to this podcast not that long ago, just like 4 or 5 years ago, I would've been able to really like understand that at all. I don't think—at the time this seems like super shallow. But if I'm just being honest with myself, my only goal was just to make money. And the reason that was my goal at the time is like that's how I kind of like saw freedom. It's like okay I can quit my job or I have the security so I don't have to worry about it or I was always like—my 1st few years being an entrepreneur I was always so scared. [inaudible 00:20:59.8] like go back and get a job. Now it's like the most terrifying thing to me. So honestly—when I'm being honest with myself all I cared about was like the money at the time. And then kind of like as I felt like I was financially secure and kind of like no longer have those worries. That's when you're going to start asking yourself those questions like man what really does bring me the most happiness or like the most joy? And for me helping entrepreneurs is like very, very high on the list if not the top thing. So I would do these different case studies or free educational piece of content or whatever else. And people often say to me why are you giving all this away for free or why are you doing this it's only creating more competition for you or whatever else. And when I hear that it would just remind me of like yeah okay 5 years ago I would have said the same thing. I wouldn't have understood it but then I talk to these other people who are like successful entrepreneurs or whoever else and they're the ones who kind of like can understand that a lot better. It's like okay once you get to a certain point it's about okay what really brings you a lot of joy in your life, a lot of happiness and you want to optimize for doing those things. Joe: Yeah and that free content and everything you're giving it away for free but you're helping people and if you're in this for the long term it's going to come back around. And I think you're in this for a long term. Absolutely, yeah. Some of the things that you've done over the past are overflowing into other things that you have ventured into. And I want to talk about a couple of them. You and a group of friends have started something called the 5 Minute Pitch. I took a look at an episode or 2 of that. I've talked to Mike about it. I saw the one with Andrew from ECF on it. Do you want to talk about what 5 Minute Pitch is and how you're helping entrepreneurs? Greg: Yeah. So this kind of goes back to what brings me joy. And helping entrepreneurs is definitely one of them. It's also fun to hang out with other people I enjoy being around. So this was like a nice mixture of the 2. 5 Minute Pitch is shark tank style pitch competition where anyone with a small internet business who hasn't raised institutional money is eligible to pitch; so different people with all different types of businesses. Everything from a small software business to an e-commerce store to just developing a product and selling it through Instagram ads or whatever else. They pitch their business to myself and 4 other judges. And at the end of the season, the season actually ends in just a few weeks; we're giving the winner a $50,000 prize. They don't have to give up any equity in their business or anything. It's just prize money to help grow. So yeah it was a—we've only done one season of it. It was really fun and we'll probably do a few more seasons in the future. Joe: That's great now everybody that listens to the podcast knows that we don't pitch products and services. But I think that they all should look closely at Jungle Scout and 5 Minute Pitch. Take a look at it if you've got a product that's just taking off and you want to get more into the e-commerce world. Take a look maybe you could be on season 2. Who is Kevin O'Leary in the 5 Minute Pitch? Who's—and have you said you're dead to me to anybody? Greg: You know I've been watching some Shark Tank before thinking about these different lines and me and most of the other judges I think most of us are all just a little too nice to be Kevin O'Leary; which in results probably makes it a bit worse for television. But we're kind of just ourselves on the show. Joe: We had the founder of Happy Feet on the podcast a few weeks ago and he said that—and he did a deal with Robert on Shark Tank. Greg: Okay. Joe: He said that when you're on shark—and I've talked to 5 or 6 people over the years that have been on, when you're on Shark Tank when you finish up they make you go sit with a psychiatrist for an hour. You can't leave 10 minutes n. It's at least for an hour because they want to make sure that you're not going to kill yourself because of some of the things that some people have said about your business; so pretty rough. Alright so let's talk about something else I looked at before we jumped on the podcast here and that is the Jungle Scout scholar; JS scholar. What are you doing there man? Greg: Yeah. So it's just a scholarship program that we started just over the years I'm thinking of different ways and kind of like give back to the communities especially things I'm kind of passionate about. So that's one that we're doing. Each semester we're giving a scholarship to someone who's kind of like in business school or maybe computer sciences or something in that area who also has kind of like an entrepreneurial spirit. So it's pretty easy. Just create a little short video and submit it. Each semester we choose someone to give the scholarship to. And then with that also comes some mentorship for me to help them get their business off the ground. Joe: That's awesome. I mean it really is. A lot of people talk about giving back and helping others, young entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs themselves but you're actually doing it. How long have you been doing that program? Greg: I think we've given away 5 scholarships now so that would be about 2 ½ years I've been doing it. So it's cool. Joe: That's impressive. Now I'm going to talk to my 17 year old when we're off. He's applying to college next year and— Greg: Tell him to apply. Joe: He is not going to business school. He'll probably be an engineer or maybe an art student, who knows we're still working that stuff out. They change their minds a lot. They really do. Greg: Yeah I do too. Joe: I did as well. And we've actually had people that have put their kids through college and then bought them a business when they graduated which is very interesting. It's almost like they shouldn't have spent that's $200,000 on college [inaudible 00:26:30.4] part of the business but kids get to grow up a little bit. What's down the road, what's in the future for Jungle Scout? What things are you going to add that are going to help those 200,000 plus subscribers and fend off some of the competition down the road? Greg: Yeah we have quite a few product initiatives going on right now. We've really grown our product team a lot over the past 6, 12 months. We're going to really build out a lot of this stuff but most of it is around kind of what I spoke about earlier about right now the Jungle has got a tool at least that gets you up to until you launched your product on Amazon. We have a few other businesses that we have acquired or built over the years but we're kind of combining those into a singular tool. So by the end of the year, the additional functionality you can expect is like the stuff from those other tools. So helping you manage your business in our PPC and optimize it; all these different areas is kind of like what we're building in this year in 2019. Joe: That's great I know that finding a great PPC company is often hard for folks, managing products we've got folks that buy businesses and just—I am looking for a great company that managed the entire thing for me so that's fantastic. One of the biggest issues people have Greg as you probably know is sourcing great products. Is that down the road or is that part of Jungle Scout at all now? Greg: Yeah so we actually just released—so our newest feature is actually probably the one I'm most proud of called supplier database. And we actually just released this like a month ago. So it's pretty cool Joe. So we—I guess you've seen this too that a lot of people have a lot of problems finding high quality suppliers. And I did too. And I also found like this was one of the biggest pain points of our audience. And when I really started to get into this, it's like okay what's the problem here because there are tons of factories on Alibaba. That's how I used to find all my factories, just on Alibaba. There's tons of them and what it really comes down to is it wasn't like a shortage of factories or finding the factories or being able to communicate with them what it really came down to was finding a quality factory and vetting the factory before you did a production run. So like most of the horror stories that you hear are that the quality didn't come out as expected or every once in a while you hear a horror story about someone who a factory just ran off with someone's money or whatever else. And so there's a few ways I used to try to combat this; one was ordering a sample at a time. However, the problem is that when you're only ordering one unit, of course, they're going to give you the nicest one. They're going to like polish that one up extra but it's like oh can I do that on a production run of a 1,000 or 2,000 units and that's oftentimes not the case. So that was one way I tried to combat it. The other way was to get an inspection once the production run was finished. The problem there is when it didn't meet the quality sometimes you weren't able to get them to really fix what you wanted or is like sometimes a little bit too late at that point. So anyway the ways to try to combat it, the list was long but [inaudible 00:29:30.6] that effective. So what we did is we collected all of the US import trade data. So when you import something in the US you file some paperwork, yo give it to the government, and through this law called the Freedom of Information Act in the US, we're able to get access to that data. We put it into a database. We made it easy to filter and search through. And the way that it's able to solve this quality problem is you're able to find factories on there, you're able to see who their customers are, how often they import into the US, and how long they've been importing to US, the quantities; a number of different factors like that. So that's really cool but we kind of took it one step further by being able to essentially search for any Amazon product or any brand on Amazon in here and you could find out who are their factories. Joe: Holy cow, that's amazing and almost offensive in some ways. I would think if you're an Amazon seller and you're able to scrape through their manufacturers. That's pretty incredible. Greg: Yeah it's really incredible. It's like the old way for me of finding factories was when I found product idea I went to Alibaba, order a bunch of samples, whatever else. My new way of finding factories is like when I find something that I want to sell, and like sitting next to me right here is a little espresso. So if I want to sell espresso cups, I would just go to Amazon, I would search for espresso cups, I would see who gets the highest ratings. So who has like 5 out of 5 stars with a whole bunch of reviews and I just find their factory. Because then like right away then you know that there's a high quality factory. Joe: And you did that through sheer tenacity and hard work. What you're doing at the Jungle Scout is you're giving a tool to do it for them. Greg: Yeah. That what— Greg: And that's what I do now; I just who the factory is of the highest quality product on Amazon and I just contact them and I buy from them. So it's a much easier way to do it. Joe: Wow that's amazing; that's scary and amazing. Still, though I think for those that are going oh my God I'm never going to sell on Amazon because of that; it's that moat that you build around with thousands of reviews. I did a valuation today for something that is a fairly competitive it's in a very competitive niche but they've guy 17,000 reviews and the closest one has maybe like 1,100. That's an enormous gap in reviews. So there's a pretty big moat there. Greg: Right, and you know this Joe it's—when we launched this there was definitely—we probably got a dozen emails of like really pissed off people because now everyone can find out who their factory is. But you realize this because you deal with people who are buying business all the time but it takes a lot more than just knowing a factory to create a successful business, right? [inaudible 00:32:09.4] like a lot of other steps. Joe: A ton of a lot. Greg: So just because people can find out who your factory is that doesn't mean that they can just copy your whole business. There's a lot more steps to it than that so I wouldn't be too worried about it. We actually saw this exact same thing when I originally launched Jungle Scout because prior to Jungle Scout no one knew how well products on Amazon were selling. And now all of a sudden you could see how well every product on Amazon sold. So same thing I got like dozens of people emailing me pissed off because I was telling the whole world about how well their products were selling on Amazon. Joe: That was—they were pissed off shortly before they subscribed probably though, right? Greg: Right. So we've kind of seen a little bit of a similar thing with the supplier database. And then to your exact most people are like wow, well I'd rather have all this data and the whole world be able to know who my factory was than this type of thing not exist out there. Joe: Yeah I hate you but I'm going to give you my money every month because you created a great product. That's awesome; fantastic. I didn't know that it went to that depth and level where you can find the products manufacturer. That's incredible. Alright, Greg, we're running out of time, obviously, Jungle Scout is how do they find it? JungleScout.com? Greg: Yeah JungleScout.com if you're not familiar with it you can read up all about it on the website. If you're interested in just selling on Amazon too, I might be a little bit biased but I think we have like the best educational content out there and it's all for free. You can find all of it under the free resources section of the website. So any format you like learning in whether that's on audio or video or written it's all on there. There's a lot of—a bunch of end up guides. We do this thing called the Million Dollar Case Study where we launched 4 products from start to finish. You get to see the products and everything along the journey. So yeah that's tons of stuff on there if you just [inaudible 00:33:52.5] on Amazon too. Joe: Fantastic; a great educational tool and a great product. And for those out there with kids that are going to college in the next couple of years how do they get to the JS Scholarship or scholar site? Greg: JungleScout.com/jungle-scholar and you can find in the footer of the website too. Joe: I got it. I found it on LinkedIn. And then there's the 5 Minute Pitches well we'll put all this in the show notes as well. Greg Mercer, thank you very much for spending time with us. I know you're a very busy guy. I appreciate it. Greg: Thanks again. I'm glad I'm here. Take care. Links and Resources: Jungle Scout Jungle Scholar The 5 Minute Pitch
Are we seeing a plateauing of Amazon? Those who think that any type of e-commerce conducted outside of Amazon is a dead-end are dead wrong. Today we welcome back Andrew Youderain to discuss his third annual State of the Merchant Report for 2019. If you've never read or heard us talk about the report, it's a comprehensive report of all things e-commerce that comes from Andy's exclusive database of real entrepreneurs, all running physical product e-commerce businesses. With more than 400 qualifying merchants completing the questionnaire, the report covers an array of important topics including growth and conversion rates, profitability stats, advertising ROI, and even one surprise question about ways our members would fulfill their biggest indulgences. We'll go over all the questions, responses, and the surprising trends in e-commerce for 2019. Episode Highlights: What is providing the best return on investment in terms of advertising? The facebook marketing factor, why it's so different, and how can be tricky. A shout out to email marketing as a very valuable and viable advertising tool. The reality of advertising fatigue and the big three – Google, Amazon, and Facebook. The typical store owner makeup and whether dropshipping is coming to an end. Surprising gains in manufacturing of original merchandise. The impact of the new tariffs on the surveyed businesses. Does everything seem to be growing? We discuss general growth rates in the e-commerce industry. The surprising thing we learned from the survey this year regarding Amazon. The place for premium and niche products. Andrew's top three takeaways from the survey. A rise in Chinese sellers on Amazon and what that means for e-commerce merchants and counterfeiting. Andrew's view on the FBA nexus and the state to state tax impact for his community of clients. The fun and surprising final question in the survey. Transcription: Joe: Mark back in Savannah I think it was 2016 was the 2nd time I ever went to eCommerceFuel. In a great location because I could drive there and it was a beautiful, beautiful location. And I was so proud because I brought copies of my e-book some would call it a book called 10 Steps to Selling your Amazon Business and this is back in '16. We're talking years ago. And so I thought I was at the forefront of things. And then Andrew does his presentation at the beginning of eCommerceFuel events which was really the state of commerce back then and what we've had him on the podcast about what this podcast today is about. The 1st thing he talks about is how few of the eCommerceFuel attendees are using Amazon; like less than 10%. And it was a very small part of their business and that Shopify and other channels were much, much bigger. And I was slightly mortified. But then the next year, the biggest growth I think in 2018 that we saw—actually it was at '17 because we stated e-commerce from Andrew in 2018 and the biggest growth factor was Amazon. And now that you've had him on again I think that that's changed a little bit, right? Mark: That's right. In this year's State of the Merchant Report from eCommerceFuel, they've found that this is the 1st year that non Amazon e-commerce stores outpaced Amazon as far as new sales channels which is pretty amazing when you think about the impact. The quote directly is this was the 1st year non Amazon sellers grew faster than those on the platform. So there's more growth happening off of Amazon among their members than on the Amazon platform. That's pretty remarkable to hear that because it feels like feels like everybody's on Amazon. And we've often preached this idea of having diverse revenue streams and making sure that you're being multichannel with your revenue streams and platforms but you and I know a lot of Amazon sellers that have gone all in on Amazon so that they could just focus on the growth there to get as much sales blossomed there as they can because it's easier to do than trying to manage multiple channels. Those who think that outside of Amazon e-commerce is dead; it's not at all, not even close. There is a couple of other interesting things that came out of this report and I'm going to let Andrew really get into some of the things that he found impressive. But one of the things that that stood out to me was the effectiveness of Facebook as a marketing channel. It seems like everyone we talked to always says Facebook is such a great marketing channel and if we could just figure it out and what my experience has been is that everybody's trying to figure it out. Which means it's really difficult to actually do. I think those that have "figured it out" are doing well. But among the people that responded to this really lengthy survey that Andrew puts them through Facebook ads came in as the 5th most effective sales channel or advertising channel that people were reporting. And the ROIS, the media in ROIS was a full point lower than the next highest. And again we'll let Andrew talk about some of these things because I'm sure he has more insights than I do into the report itself. From just a general like where are you in the market as an e-commerce business or when you're looking to buy and identifying the right trends and the types of businesses that are going to be around for the next several years a report like this is just invaluable, right? You get to see where a business is going, where the industry is going, and maybe where the next opportunities lie. Joe: Yeah and it comes directly from the eCommerceFuel membership database. As far as I understand it Andrew sends a survey out and collects all of this data and all of this information so it's from real entrepreneurs down in the trenches running their businesses; physical product e-commerce businesses. So if anybody is out there that is looking to grow their business outside of Amazon this report can help. If anybody's buying a business and wants to take it beyond Amazon this report can help. If you're on Shopify and you want to learn the other channels, what number 2, 3, and 4 are before that 5th one that's most effective being Facebook this report can help. And it comes from Andrew. There are very few people in the industry that are as good character as Andrew and the folks at eCommerceFuel. Mark: Oh I was just about to say that now. A shout out for the good guys Andrew is certainly one of those. So let's get into this discussion between Andrew and I on this report and find out what some of the insights he [inaudible 00:05:59.2]. Joe: Let's go to it. Mark: Andrew, thank you so much for coming back on to the podcast. You were on last year and we talked about the awesome report that you guys do over at eCommerceFuel; the State of the Merchant Report. And this is where you survey a lot of the members of your community which we've talked about here on the Quiet Light Podcast, Joe and I talked about it quite a bit. One of our favorite conferences, one of our favorite communities out there for high revenue e-commerce store owners; it's a fantastic community that you built there. And you do this report every year. It's a really good pulse of what's going on in the world of e-commerce. So thank you again for joining us. Andrew: Yeah thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And good work with the podcast. I'm enjoying the Quiet Light Podcast. I kind of love your episodes and yes you're putting up good stuff; you and Joe. But your episodes seem to have just a tiny edge on Joe's. I don't know maybe it's just in my mind but regardless you guys are doing awesome, awesome stuff. Mark: Yeah I'm just going to record that. I'm going to put it on a loop and I'm just going to send it to Joe a few times so he can hear that over and over again. You need to submit at some point we've been adding these movie quotes to our intros at random so you need to listen to those and tell us what you think it is and we'll give you a shout out. I don't know what they are myself so I'm excited about this. I'm excited to talk about this year's report because you always come out with just some really fascinating bits of data. And I'm going to start with one that I've run across a decent amount because I think it really speaks to a lot of buyers are thinking about when they're evaluating an online purchase and also sellers who are looking to scale their business and this is what is providing the best return on investment at this point in terms of advertising? Facebook is often quoted you know if we could just unlock Facebook and this is something that I want to get into a little bit here but your report showed some surprising numbers with where the most value is and where some of the lowest hanging fruit is for advertising. Andrew: Yeah so there are a couple of things that are new this year. I wanted to take a look at what merchants are using the most in terms of promoting their business; so what's most popular and then also what's the most effective because often those are not the same thing. And so you look at the most popular marketing channels and we just ask people what are you using and in the number of popularity 1st was email marketing, 2nd Facebook ads, 3rd was Google AdWords, 4th was SEO, and 5th was Instagram. And so then we—of course, it was a popularity—to get a sense of what was most effective we looked at okay, of the people that are using every single one of these things we asked about which, how many, what percentage of them ranked that specific one as the most effective? And the one that came to the surface wasn't even the top 5 that we talked about. The number one most effective marketing channel reported by merchants was Amazon Ads. Over half of people running Amazon Ads said it was the best highest ROI marketing channel to use, number two is e-mail marketing, three was SEO, 4th was Google AdWords, and like a distant 5th not even like a close 5th, but a distant 5th was Facebook Ads. And another thing that we explored was the average return on Ad Spend for Facebook Ads versus Amazon and Google and they had the lowest return on Ad Spend at 3.4 compared to Amazon at 4.6 and Google at over 5. And they're increasing of the costs on the Facebook platform were growing up the fastest as well; almost 20% versus 16 for Amazon and 10 for Google. So that was kind of the Facebook—I think a lot of people, so many people are doing it and it's easy to have like almost some fear of missing out if you're not doing it or if you're doing it like you're not getting the secret when everyone else is. But I think it's a harder nut to crack than people like to admit. And those were some of the numbers based on the advertising. Mark: Yeah there's a lot that I want to get into on this here and let's see if I can remember all of it but I want to 1st talk about the Facebook ads because you put it in that way; it's a tough nut to crack. And I wonder if that's really maybe some of the secrets that's going on behind these numbers with the EBIDTA ROIS and also the effective marketing channel. We've had Ezra Firestone on the podcast here before. He's a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage. He obviously is a big advocate of Facebook advertising. I've seen some other people who have been doing Facebook Ads with a lot of effectiveness but and this is the big caviar, it takes a while to figure that part out. And a lot of these guys have gotten there where they're seeing these ROIS of five plus, they've taken months—literally months and lots of dollars down the drain to really get to that point. I'm wondering and maybe you looked into this a little bit with the survey; did you look into people that have tried Facebook marketing and maybe gave up after two or three months because they couldn't get it to work or did you not look that deep or ask that deep of a question? Andrew: Yeah I didn't go quite that deep. And it's always tough designing the survey because it's already like 50 plus questions and I'm trying to balance—making sure we get people who get all the way through it with you know what are the critical things we get. So sadly I didn't get that kind of data. A lot of the kind of the fox and the stories behind people getting into Facebook and having a hard time with it are more anecdotal that I hear from people. And so sadly yeah I wish I had some good numbers and data behind it but it's more anecdotal than anything else. Mark: I mean look there's a couple of things on here on your top; 5 Amazon Ads, e-mail marketing, SEO, and Google AdWords. So let's go through here with Amazon Ads, SEO, Google AdWords; those are all high intent advertising channels, right? So if somebody goes online and says buy shoes or buy cheap shoes or best running shoes; that's a really high intent search, Facebook Ads not so much of a high intense search, e-mail marketing side if they're on your list that already a warm contact. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we're seeing that but the other side of this too that I would say is like if you're looking to create a market and let's say you have kind of an odd channel, maybe you take a spin on a new type of ice cream scooper that doesn't get stuck ever. So the ice cream never gets stuck in that ice cream scooper and you've invented this and you're going to sell it; well nobody knows that it exists. So it might take a while to build that market and so Facebook Ads might be a good source for that because you can have that proof of concept and really kind of educate the marketplace. But it's also going to take a little bit more work to get people to really peak their attention. Andrew: Yeah Facebook is just a totally different mindset for advertising. It's really great if you're good at targeting if you're good at—the way you build a funnel is just totally different. It's more so about you get to be able to catch people when they're doing something else, get their attention, pull them off the platform or engage them for a while and then pull them off versus being able to drive a sale short term. I think it's a longer term game and just a different mentality you need to have if you're going to do it well. And targeting too with Facebook I think is getting trickier [inaudible 00:12:57.7] that some of the targeting the traffic that Facebook had been sending hasn't been converting as well for some members and some people I know. So that's a big part of Facebook performing well as them sending you people that are based on their intelligence they know are going to work well. So yes it's interesting. Mark: Yeah talking to crack I think is the best way to describe it. So I do think it's a viable source but you've got to have the right type of product and you really have to know what you're doing with it and be patient. I mean that's just a lot with these; Amazon I'm not surprised at all, still a very young marketplace so I think we're still seeing kind of those numbers equalize out. Talk about a high intent marketplace and high intent searches so I think that makes complete sense they're number one on the list. And let's give a shout out to email marketing probably the old man in the room there, right? Andrew: Yeah although it's funny I think about if you look at email and even email it's still of course you know the number two most effective marketing channel and it's still highly—super valuable but I feel like even probably it's getting harder. I think advertising, in general, is getting so much more difficult because we've had so much of it—a part of it is fatigue; just advertising fatigue. And you've got three main giants who control so much of it and they're kind of squeezing all of the juice out of it they can with rising ad prices but even my email inbox I don't know about you Mark but I'm way more ruthless now with my email. I've got a ton of filters set up. I have used like unroll.me to unsubscribe from a lot of stuff because you have to. Because I'm looking to change my email address in the next couple of months to just have a team address to really focus on because it's—the levels most of the messages coming at us are increasingly just –they just keep going up and up and up. And so I don't know, it would be interesting to see if anything comes up in the next two, three, four years where—that it makes it able to get through all of that noise. Because it's getting—just any advertising, in general, is just getting a lot harder because there's just so much out there. Mark: You know I really think it comes down to the personalization. Email marketing, you're right I mean email it's a complete mess and now I use Gmail, we use Gmail, Google Apps throughout Quiet Light Brokerage and they tab everything down in that promotions or updates or forums tab. And I'll tell you what I don't look at promotions ever. Basically, its spam light is what it is and so you just throw all that stuff away. I go through it every few days and select all and hit the archive. Coming through that though like having personalized messages, very, very hyper focused hyper personalized messages I think that's really the only way that people are going to be able to survive with that email marketing. That's tough, that's not easy to do. Andrew: You know I agree and I think—you know I did a podcast with somebody earlier this year and they have an antiques business and every week they send out an email on Saturday and at the click through rates are like 25%. I talked to him about how he was doing this, I mean trying to get some secret out of it and there wasn't any secret. It was that he spent hours and hours and hours on an email that was totally unique and it was amazing deep interest level to the customers and people open it. And like I look at the email that we have that goes out to our private communities [inaudible 00:16:34.2] it's not nearly as good as his is but just that so much smaller group only about a thousand people but we're able to get it. It takes a lot of time to put together but it gets generally open rates of close to 50%. Mark: Let's move on here to another thing. I want to talk about the anatomy of a store owner. You put together a really nice simple graphic on the link to the report and I will link to this report here in the show notes and we'll also throw it into an email as well. So people listening to this take a look at the email coming through from Quiet Light Brokerage but I want to talk about the makeup of the store owner. Drop shipping seems to be kind of on the losing end of things these days. Andrew: Yeah I feel like it's had some pretty strong headwinds for the last couple of years. And this year the number—every year we ask and we look at what percentage of store owners is a certain type of business model; drop shipping, manufacturing, private label, hybrid, or reselling products. And this year the number of drop shippers that reported got cut in half. So only 8% of people this year down from 16% last year were drop shippers which is a pretty huge—just a massive cut. And if you look at the number of manufacturers that we're reporting that reports for the survey that was up by almost a 3rd by 32%. So it seems like a lot of those—this has been a couple of narratives that have been talked about for a couple of years now but it's really playing out in the numbers. Mark: Yeah I think so as well. What's funny though is we had somebody on recently to talk about drop shipping and they were killing it. They were doing a great job with drop shipping. So I feel like it's one of these areas where for a while there were Ad Sense sites, a pretty number of Ad Sense sites all over the place, a bunch of those got wiped out and the general thought was this is kind of a dead business model. Well, I've seen some of them come by and those people that actually survived through that and how they got some strong, strong businesses. I feel that way with drop shipping a little bit. Like if you can survive these head winds you've got something good. Andrew: It's funny you say that Mark because when I looked at the revenue growth by business model and the income growth by a business model guess who was leading the pack on both of those metrics? It was drop shippers. And I think what happened is exactly like you said there's a little bit of a Darwinism at play here where a lot of the herd got thinned out and the people that were left were able to make it work well. And I think you're actually right it definitely can work in some models. I think it's much harder to get the things to all align and get a model where it works well for reasons that—I guess I don't want to get into on the show right now but if you can get it right I mean it's a great business model because no inventory, no upfront cash, no cash flow issues, location independent. If you get it to work right it's a pretty good gig. Mark: It really is but it seems to be so dependent on the product and also your relationships as well because obviously, the problem with drop shipping is competition. It's so easy just to spin up something and compete directly with you and you get the sort of you bicker with a sort of marketplace of every product that is exactly the same, same images and everything else. It's tough to work in that area. On the flip side—so like I like to think about this on a spectrum. On one side we have drop shipping where you can see the products sometimes you get into reselling which might be a little bit of a step away from that drop shipping where you're still doing with some physical product but it's not yours. And then you go all the way over to the other side of the spectrum and you get these unique manufactured products, some of them private labeled but the most extreme would be hey I invented something or I've created a product and you're seeing some pretty big gains in that area. Andrew: Yeah I mean the number of manufacturers like I mentioned was up a 3rd this year. If you look at also not just the number of people that are doing it but the benefits that they're seeing and the pay off, so we tracked gross margin, net margin for those—for all these different types of sellers and manufacturers and by far the largest gross margin at 53%, the highest net margin at 21% and those were up year over year too for each category. I think the gross margin for manufacturers was up from 45% percent up to 53 and the net was up as well. So yeah I think manufacturers are—it's a harder business, there's less of a roadmap, it's more capital intensive, it's more stressful but if you're able to crack it more and more people are going that way. It's really the only way I feel like you can play on Amazon these days because if you're going to try to go resell someone else's product on Amazon you're going to get destroyed. And it's where a lot of people seem to be going and getting paid for. Mark: Yeah I think all those things that you talked about; the stress, no roadmap, everything else there's a flip side of that. It's defensible, right? Because there's no roadmap you're not going to have everybody saying oh I know exactly how to do this. It is difficult to do and figuring out how to get that manufacturing [inaudible 00:21:21.3] done is tough. Did you ask people and if you only have just kind of from what you've heard in the community obviously China I would guess would be the number one sourcing location for most people manufacturing, what other countries are you hearing from some of the members on the community that—where people are sourcing products? Especially when we're recording this—I don't know when we're going to air this episode but when we're recording this we're staring down potentially more tariffs going on with China. Obviously, this is going to impact everybody selling from China so finding other sources would be great. Have you heard of any other countries that seem to be emergent? Andrew: That's a great question and the honest answer is no. I mean there are people in Asia—I hear occasionally about people sourcing in Taiwan which depending on who you ask is China or isn't. Vietnam is another one that comes up but apart—and you know some people I know occasionally hear their source from India or make their things in Canada or someone I met with recently is building some footwear in Mexico. So there definitely are some other places people get certain things but in terms of a potential runner up to China that could even remotely start to be an alternative to where people are manufacturing 90% of things I don't think of someone who's pulling away or even you know accelerating at all. It's kind of just a whole bunch of a lot of different options all over. So not really an emerging source for manufacturing that I'm seeing. Mark: That's a little disappointing but not surprising. I mean wouldn't it be great to have something on this side of the ocean where we could maybe just pull up from Central America instead of having to—I talked to some of these store owners and they're talking about three months plus lead times where you're committing capital and then that goes on the ocean and it takes—I can't imagine how difficult that would be. Andrew: Oh yeah it would be really hard and you know it's one thing we did ask this year was did tariffs impact your business and granted I know we're talking you and I are both in the States, I know a lot of people listening aren't in the States but probably the vast majority of 85% or so of respondents for the survey are US based or 75% rather but we asked did tariffs impact your business this year? And over a 3rd of people, the 36% said the tariffs meaningfully hurt their business this year. And like you just alluded to they are only getting more from slapped on. So it's a big deal and it'd be nice to have a silver lining; maybe be that sourcing out of some of the countries closer to us maybe, maybe get a boost. Mark: Yeah that'd be interesting. Hey if anybody has an idea on where we can craft and not let me know. That'd be great to get that part out. Let's go to like some of the Sunday news here and that is everything seems to be growing. You know I started Quiet Light Brokerage right before we hit that great recession so a lot of my entrepreneurial journey has been slogging through a difficult economy. It seems like from what we're seeing we're in a bull market right now. Andrew: It seems really strong. So we—looking at growth rates over time, and again these are the average merchant—the average e-commerce store owner reporting for the survey was right around 3 million. So that's relatively small when you look at the macro economy, if you look at e-commerce trends, in general, they're probably could be growing closer to 20% plus or minus but for this segment of store owners if you look at the growth trend over 3 years, 2017 it was about 25%, last year it jumped way up to almost 37%, and this year it's down a touch to 36% but still meaningfully about the same. So revenue growth is good, income growth has also remained real strong and if you look at the conversion rates too and it's just continued to go up the last two years. I mean the conversion rate we're looking at this year was over 3% up from 2.60% last year. And in terms of like our earlier margins are up so all in all for store owners things are good, growth is good, margins are good, the conversion is great and it's kind of a boom time is the right word. But it's definitely—things are robust and healthy out there for stores in this segment. Mark: Yeah that's fantastic. One of the surprising things that I've seen from the report and we talked about this last year and I know Joe tells me and we mentioned this in the introduction to this episode here that the very 1st eCommerceFuel Live that he attended he brought a book on 10 Steps to Selling Amazon Business. You asked at one point to raise your hand if you're selling on Amazon and it was only a small portion of the room that did so. And he was thinking oh man I completely missed the mark bringing this book. Well, we've seen this number increase over the years although this year from—unless I've got [inaudible 00:26:19.5] I'm not reading this backwards, it looks like you have a decline in people that are selling on Amazon and an increase in people that are not selling on Amazon. Is that really what you're seeing? Andrew: Yeah I wouldn't say a decline but I would say a plateauing of something in the report that I wrote I call it like a plateauing Amazon—I hesitate to use the word peak Amazon because every time that I think that they've peaked anything they blow up and accelerate to the moon. But looking at like three examples here, or three data points; if you look at the number of merchants who just sell on Amazon or they don't. A couple of years ago 49% last year, it was 55% so a fairly meaningful jump. This year that number barely budged; it went from 55.2% to 55.8%. So up a little bit but wildly decelerating. Along the same lines if you look at group sales from Amazon last year, two years ago they were up really sharply and this year they barely budged; 27.6 to 28.2% of the total sales that all of the merchants generate coming from Amazon. And this is maybe the most surprising number. If you look at just the revenue growth of stores that sell on Amazon versus don't last year stores that sold on Amazon grew faster than stores that didn't. And this year stores that don't sell on Amazon actually grew faster than stores that do by a small margin which is just really, really surprising. So I think that there's so much here. We could do a whole episode on I don't think Amazon is going anywhere, I think they're going to be shaping the e-commerce landscape for the next 5 to 10 years. But I do think a lot of merchants are starting to really struggle with counterfeit issues, with increasing fees, with loss of control, with feeling like they're totally beholden to Amazon, and a lot of host of other issues. And they're not getting off the platform but the number of merchants that are saying hey yeah let's go hitch our wagon, go to Amazon and sell there—and some people are just deciding to leave the platform altogether. So one of my predictions and here I'm almost certain that it could be wrong because I'm going out on a limb is that next year is the 1st year we see the percentage of stores selling on Amazon actually decrease year over year. So we'll see when that happens. Mark: Yeah that's interesting. I wonder if shopper's behavior is changing at all and just again you just can't draw any conclusions from this here but I know for myself I've become more of a diversified shopper than I have in the past. I still use Amazon probably like 4 or 5 times a week, I'm still a really heavy Amazon shopper but I'll actually look around a little bit off of Amazon as well. And if I get the chance to order directly from a store I do so. Now that's probably just because I worked with so many entrepreneurs that have these stores and I know the benefits for them. But there's something nice about that specialization, right? If you think about the big box stores and how they couldn't specialize in any sort of gear but if you want something high end and specialized, it makes sense that there is somebody that actually does specialize in that. It's pure speculation on my part of course. Andrew: No. I think you're absolutely right. I think we're going to see in the next 5 years a real hollowing out of e-commerce where you have Amazon; if there's something you'd know you want to buy it's more of a commodity or a fairly inexpensive product that I think Amazon is going to be the place you go to get it quickly and cheaply and efficiently. But I think for anything else, for merchants I think the place to really thrive and survive over the next 5 years is to have a premium product or a very niched product; ideally, one that you manufacture. Like just for example yesterday I called up and I was in the market for a nice bike rack for my vehicle. And I went into a lot of research and the company I ended up buying it from I ended up talking to him on the phone for 35, 40 minutes. They custom manufacture in the United States, they ship that to me and it's that kind of thing. They have an incredible product and they don't sell on Amazon surprisingly because they don't need to. Because everyone that wants the site or this product they go right to them and they don't want to give up the marginalized control and guessing. And I think those are the kind of merchants that are going to do really well in the next 5 plus years. And I think that's kind of the best place to be going forward if you're not going to be on Amazon. Mark: Yeah. I would agree 100%. I think just from a long term sort of defensibility mindset and that's what I've seen and I actually see it on Amazon as well, the companies that are doing really, really well long term Amazon really care about their products. And they're spending a lot of time on that product development cycle and doing their research and trying to make sure that they have something that's a high quality product. But then they're also looking outside of that as well and becoming specialists in that space which makes a big difference. With everything that you surveyed here was there any one or two things that really stood out to you as being surprising this year or would inform you if you were an owner of an e-commerce business yourself that you would definitely want to take action on? Andrew: I think the big things were the massive shift and we kind of touched on this but the massive shift of people going away from drop shipping and into manufacturing. And the benefits financially that those manufacturers we're seeing. That would be a big one. The other one was the Facebook ones we talked about where Facebook Ads really are definitely at the back of the pack especially relative to their popularity in terms of effectiveness. So those would be probably two of the big things and then in terms of Amazon just I think it still makes—it can make sense if you have a great product that's proprietary. It doesn't—if you do it carefully I don't think you shouldn't go on Amazon but just the fact that so many people are kind of hitting the brakes on that or at least new entrance in saying aren't rushing in as head long as they were before I think is pretty telling. So nothing new there Mark that we haven't talked about but three things if I was in the middle of kind of defining strategy or starting it from scratch I think would be things I would think really carefully about. Mark: You said earlier in the episode here with advertising how much more difficult it's become. And I generally think that what we're seeing with the Internet and Internet based businesses and we've been seeing this pretty much since the time I started as an entrepreneur 20 years ago now is this maturation of the businesses where I think they're all getting more difficult to do. And you look at this and you think oh man that's such a bummer. I know I talked to some friends who are entrepreneurs back in the early 2000s and we kind of reminisce about the quarry days of Amazon was a thing of the website waiting for the movie dance to happen and now all of a sudden they're making gobs of money. But what do we learn from all that? We learned that dries up and disappears pretty quickly. The people that are surviving are the ones that are embracing some of these challenges and looking at them saying I'm going to build something really sustainable, a real product and they're doing great. They're doing really good. And that bears out in some of your numbers. Andrew: Yeah and one thing—it absolutely, absolutely does and I think one thing for you to touch on in terms of Amazon and in terms of sourcing in more of a macro level, if you look at one of the things we asked it was what are your most common struggles, what macro changes are you seeing, and what are your future plans? And one of the macro changes that came up the 1st time this year on the top top list was the number of Chinese sellers that were coming into Amazon. And I think I saw a stat today that 40% of the top Amazon sellers in 2019 are Chinese sellers versus 26% two years ago. And so A. on one level you have just a lot more competition directly from factories who are the low cost provider. Which isn't a bad thing for consumers in and of itself but it's harder for merchants. And if those sellers don't have the same kind of quality standards; some of them do, some of them don't, and you also run into problems. But you also have a lot of—one thing I've noticed is a lot of counterfeit issues. This has been in the news. We've had a number of members in our community who have had problems with this when they had a product it got knocked off and then these people—you know a lot of overseas sellers started selling this product directly in competition with the original manufacturer which was really problematic because the quality wasn't as good. And so consumers got it and it really hurt the brand because they assumed it came from the original source when it didn't. And so you see I think this also ties back into Amazon and why people are getting a little bit more careful about that platform is because there are some meaningful counterfeit issues out there that again going back to the difficulties of manufacturing that merchants are having to face that weren't really as much of an issue two, three years ago. Mark: That would be interesting to see what happens with that platform. And also I'm going to touch on one last bit of the report here that you spent some time on and that is the impact of politicians and judges and we've covered two areas; we were already talked about tariffs briefly and how many were impacted by that. I think the other big elephant in the room and it's been there for several years and we've talked about it a ton here at Quiet Light Brokerage and that is the FBA Nexus. Do you have Nexus, are you filing those sales taxes in different states, and you still have a very small percentage [inaudible 00:35:49.6] to the speaking of your community that was paying those sales taxes. I think 21% is what I'm seeing is that right? Andrew: Yup that's correct. So the percentage of sellers who have Amazon inventory that is filing for sales tax, [inaudible 00:36:04.0] sales tax in any state that they have "FBA Nexus" whether or not you agree that [inaudible 00:36:10.1] Nexus. Yeah only about a quarter of merchants are submitting sales tax to those states. Mark: And do you have any idea why such a small percentage? I mean obviously nobody wants to pay taxes and that it's a pain to most people. I've run into sellers who make the argument that it's really not—oh there's no legal basis for it. Andrew: I think it's a couple of things. I think one it's it is potentially disputable whether or not and again this is something I need to personally do a deep dive on but from the very—this is where things get dangerous when I talk but from the very little I know I don't know if it's—I don't believe it's that very crystal clear, there's a whole lot of present presidents that said yes this does definitively give you Nexus. And it could be a state by state issue as well. So I think that's part of it. I think the 2nd part of it is thinking about—so because it's a gray area you can have more people who start thinking on a risk basis. What are my risks I submit? What are my risks if I don't? Also relative to the workload because it's not just about the tax; I mean if it was mostly about the tax and the administering this and the managing of it was really easy and you didn't have any you know long term liability or exposure to being audited I think most merchants would say hey it's a little inconvenience but let's go ahead and let's set this up. You can snap your fingers I'll collect the sales tax; it's not a big deal. If it is a federal level it's much easier to do. I think you'd see that number jumped to 25 to 50% plus but that's not the case. Like you've got—it's hard to administer. You potentially open yourself up to dozens, hundreds, maybe even theoretically thousands of different municipalities who can audit you. You run the risk of getting on a sales tax agency's radar to come after you and maybe it wasn't before. So I think those are some of the reasons why people are not exactly thrilled at the thought of jumping in and waving their hand at taxation seasons saying hey here I am I'm not sure if I'm actually legally obligated to do this but come check me out. Mark: I completely get it. I get the risk versus reward analysis and frankly if I were a seller I would probably be among that 75% that's not collecting. Not that that's what I would advise here in my role because I know that if you do want to sell you got to be doing that right. And most buyers are looking at that and saying we want you to be paying those taxes. We don't want that to come back after us [inaudible 00:38:31.9] later on. But I mean from my opinion I think it's pretty legally shaky ground to say that people do have that Nexus. But the best practice from a selling standpoint would be to be filing so we do—I mean that's our default position here at Quiet Light is that you should be filing for sure without a doubt. But I would love to see this resolved within the next few years because it as if Amazon sellers don't have enough things hanging over their head. There's this potential like you said of being audited by the state of California or all of a sudden getting a bill for seven, eight, nine years of tax—what a mess. They need to get it together and figure this part out. Andrew: There's a little bit of encouraging news [inaudible 00:39:16.5] different sales tax issue we're talking about the FBA Nexus tax issue but the wayfarer versus South Dakota Supreme Court case that opened up the doors for states to tax inbound orders to their residents even if you don't have Nexus in the state as a whole opened up a whole other can of worms. And California I believe just passed some legislation that increases the threshold for—I think that the term for that is economic Nexus. They bumped that up meaningfully to half a million when before it was really low at like 100,000 and 200 transactions. So there's a little bit of encouraging news on some of that fronts and I believe there's been maybe half a dozen other states that either followed suit or are in process of doing that but its sales tax right now in the United States is just an absolute disaster. And I agree with you, I think we really need something at the federal level to clean it up because it's just a nightmare. I know people and I know you have to Mark that have sold their business not entirely based on but this definitely was a large part of the calculation thinking through I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to deal with the stress. I don't know with the liability and this is making business harder than it needs to be and I'm ready to be done. Mark: Yeah absolutely. Alright, we got to get to the most important metric that you've got and then wrap this up because we're actually long already with the episode. And you know what it is, it's your KPI the thing that you're focusing on the most. And in the past, you've learned stuff about your community rather be attacked by a swarm of angry bees and a bear and you say that they're crazy. I don't know the bear sounds pretty scary. But this year you asked what luxury gift would you pick; unlimited use of a private jet, $300,000 in annual income, a monthly lunch with anyone, or a tropical island and a house. So that 300k of annual income is that like forever? Andrew: That's forever. Yeah and I think overly weighted this one. I should have been all stench here with the annual annuity that you got because 2/3 of people picked the 300k income which yeah it's hard to argue against that. That's a pretty sweet little set up for life but like 10% picked the jet, about 13% picked the monthly lunch with anyone. That was my pick. I think like you can—I mean to be able to sit down once a month with the likes of U.S. presidents, heads of state, Nobel Prize winners. I mean you can't buy that. I think that'd be cool. Mark: Do you have to buy lunch? Andrew: You do. I should have included that. That was probably what the deal breaker was. Mark: Right. Because it's got to be a pretty nice lunch if you're going to have lunch with these guys. You're not just going down on like [inaudible 00:41:45.4]. Andrew: That's a good point. And then the last one was a tropical house, about 30% of people picked that. But yeah I mean to me this is I feel like it's going to a cornerstone—I suppose we can lead with this one actually Mark. I think next time maybe we mix things around and lead off of the Kardashian performance. Mark: You like to always put the best content at the end so that people will listen all the way to the end. Because where would your day be today if you hadn't learned that most people would take 300k annual income over a monthly lunch with anyone. I actually think you make a pretty valid point there. That would be pretty valuable. You can't buy a monthly lunch with anyone. That'd be tough. Andrew: Buffet—I think you could buy lunch with Buffett for—I don't know it's in the millions I think to have lunch with him. And he's just—I can imagine he's a pretty cool cat but yeah to build it up monthly with anyone; that's pretty cool. Mark: Yeah that is pretty cool. Alive and dead? Andrew: No, I don't think—I think it has to be alive. I didn't put that in there. If we had some inane abilities to be able to resurrect people, that would be pretty sweet. I'd put that in there too. I probably would have bumped it up a touch but I don't know, that 300k was pretty [inaudible 00:42:53.4] people. People like their cash. Mark: I think I could probably make 300k a year with some inane abilities. I'd be like one of those fortune tellers but I'm pretty sure I could spin that off into a pretty desk. Andrew: I know you could too. Mark: Hey thanks so much for coming on; tons of really good information. Go check out eCommerceFuel.com and the State of the Merchant Report. We will link to it in the show notes. We will be sending out an email to every one of our subscribers here on this. If you're not a member of the community are you taking applications right now Andrew? Andrew: We are. Yes, we are. Mark: Okay. If you're not a member of the eCommerceFuel community and you are an e-commerce seller you definitely need to check them out. I don't recommend a lot of groups. I don't recommend a lot of people or sites. We do so very stingily here at Quiet Light Brokerage but eCommerceFuel is one of our favorite groups out there. So please do check them out. Anything you'd like to end with Andrew? Andrew: No. I think that maybe two quick things; one if you want to check out the report directly its eCommerceFuel.com/2019-report that'll link you right to it. And then if you happen to be a podcast listener which I'm guessing you are, we also do a weekly podcast, sometimes twice a week on e-commerce, e-commerce news, store owners, kind of cutting edge just whatever is happening in the e-commerce world and strategy. That comes out weekly as well so if you're interested in that you can check that out [inaudible 00:44:15.2]. Mark: Yeah and you guys also sent out really good emails. I know we talked about email marketing and there's not a lot of people I feel add value to my inbox. I think you guys do a great job of adding value to my inbox. So definitely check out the community, check out the podcast and the report. And once again Andrew thanks for coming on. I look forward to having you on next year for the 2020 State of the Merchant Report. Andrew: Yeah. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. It's always fun to come on and great work with what you guys are doing in the online space with businesses. It's always fun to talk and I appreciate the invite. Links and Resources: Andrew's website State of the Merchant 2019 Andrew's Podcast
It seems that with certain Quiet Light Brokerage listings, there is just a mad rush of activity as soon as they come out. Most of the listings that we put out will receive at least 100 inquiries right away, but what does it look like when we put out a "hot listing" that garners two times that much interest? Today we are discussing the type of business that gets 9 offers. We go over how many inquiries those types of listings get, how much discussion and conference calls happen around these potential transactions in a short time frame, and just what it takes to get these listings under contract. We hope you enjoy this little case study of how to set up for a successful sale from the seller side and tips for how to act from the buyer side. Being thoroughly prepared and running a real, viable business are keys to success. Episode Highlights: The main characteristics that made this business so attractive. How the pricing decision played into the transaction. The process of selecting the 15 buyers we entertained. The conference call screening process between the seller and potential buyers, facilitated by the broker. How to choose a buyer and deal with disappointing those who lost out. The 4 pillars of success and how this business checked them all. The one intangible thing that took the business to the next level and attracted the buyers. How the packages that Quiet Light puts together tell a story about the listing and the journey of the brand and its seller. Transcription: Mark: It seems that with some Quiet Light Brokerage listings as soon as when they hit the marketplace there is just an absolute mad rush of buying activity towards those listings. Now to be clear most of the listings that we put out at Quiet Light Brokerage, the vast majority, in fact, it could be an exception to the rule is going to receive at least 100 inquiries from buyers and calls right away. So what does it look like when it we come across a "hot listing"? Well, it looks like a lot of conference calls scheduled very, very shortly and just a mad rush of inquiries probably upwards of 200 and 250 within the first 24 hours in some cases. What's the difference between a listing that is not as hot like that that gets on a 100, 150, which is still a lot and something that doubles that? Joe, I know you launched a listing 3 or 4 weeks ago from the time that we're recording this episode that we would definitely throw in that hot category. What were the top line statistics on that? Joe: It was a let's call it a 95 to 98% Amazon business. It was 30 months old. It was in the category of America's fastest growing recreational sports. It was run by a single owner operator that was a stay at home dad that was a CPA by training yet outsourced the bookkeeping to an e-commerce bookkeeper. $440,000 in discretionary earnings and we went out on a 3.3 which is lower than my recommendation. But in this case, the conservative CPA said no I don't want it to be listed for too long. I really like to get it sold let's … can we go out at a three. I suggested a 3.5. Rarely does somebody come back and say can you sell it for less and he did in this case and we ended up [inaudible 00:02:50.9]. Mark: The guy sounds like one of these unbelievably likable guys. How many inquiries did you get within that first 24 hours? Joe: You know I didn't count the first 24 but I know that you and I were … we were in Dallas and on the way to Houston for a meeting and I think we pulled it up and within the first 4 hours, we had something like 185. So within the first 24, I think it probably doubled to close to 400 would be my guess. Mark: That is insane. Now I do remember obviously these are all loaded questions so anyone listening like I know the answers to most of these questions— Joe: No, he doesn't. He forgot them all. He can— Mark: I actually— Joe: Yeah. Mark: I was introduced by the way this is completely outside; a complete diversion here. So sidebar I was introduced at a group of CEO's yesterday. And in front of the entire group of CEO's the guy that introduced me said "And Mark, by the way, took his son, they have seven kids or is it they're expecting their seventh kid. He's got so many kids he forgets their birthdays because he took his son to urgent care the other day and he got his birthday wrong." I'm like thank you for that. I'm so glad to be known as the guy who forgets his kids' birthdays. Joe: You've got a lot of kids man. Mark: I got the month right. I didn't get the year or day right. I know the answer to this. We were in the car together and your phone was blowing up. We were at a conference. You were trying to schedule out all of these people wanting conference calls and you did this right over the conference itself which maybe we can talk about in just a little bit here. Within that first 24 hours if you would just guess how many conference call requests did you get? Joe: Well, let's keep in mind that that our process requires that the buyer either speak to me first before requesting a conference call or we've spoken in the past. So in this case in the first 24 hours, I had at least 10 requests for conference calls with buyers that I've already spoken to in the past that have looked at prior listings of ours and they wanted to make sure they were on a call with this one. We wound up with a total of 15 on this. As I said the owner of the business, Paul, is a stay at home dad. It's funny and I don't know if they loved this or just love making fun of Paul for this but he's a stay at home dad right? His son is a couple of years old but he takes his son to daycare at eight and picks him up at five. So I'm not sure how stay at home that is. Anyway so … but the beautiful thing is that he maybe … Paul if you're listening I'm sorry, maybe it's nine to four and you expanded it. Either way, you're a great guy and people love you and your business. I am not getting a Christmas card from Paul this year. Mark: I'm sure you are. Joe: Anyway, he was able to clear his calendar which was great. I was getting so inundated and I was at eCommerceFuel and I'm like I can't do these conference calls. And I had said to Paul on the way through eCommerceFuel look I want to bump this launch a week because it's going to get crazy and I'm not to be able to be on this conference calls. He says oh god really? Come on I really want to get it launched and it totally got my heartstrings so we launched it anyway. So I took the two days … it launched on a Wednesday I think and I took Thursday and Friday and all I did was talk to folks and schedule the calls for the following week. Paul cleared his calendar. We set up a link so that people could just grab a link and schedule them. We did a max of three a day separated by at least an hour a piece and we wound up I think by Monday closed the business. We had all 15 slots scheduled. We capped it at 15 which is really five too many. You just don't have to have that many conference calls. Normally we have three to five conference calls and we have at least one acceptable offer. Here we had 15 scheduled and we wound up with nine. Mark: These are 45 minute slots or are they an hour long slots? Joe: They were hour long slots. I go with an hour yeah. Mark: So just to put this in perspective for people that have not been on the sell side, I know I had this with a listing last year that I represented where it was just a really favorable price on the business and so we had that 15 conference call sort of scenario that we were doing in one week. For anyone on the receiving end of that our clients, the sellers, that's exhausting to go from one conference call to the next to the next; an hour where you're being asked the same questions and you're doing the majority of the talking during that time. This might be a little bit beside the fact but how did he hold up throughout all those calls? Joe: He did pretty well. They were spread out which was nice. He usually had … he had a minimum of an hour but usually, it was two or three hours in between. And we had one drop out so it ended up being 14. But he did pretty well. He had to keep moving around the house. That particular week his son was home because he got a fever a couple of days before and he was quite sick so he couldn't take him to daycare. And his mother flew up from Arizona to be with his son while he moved around the house to be in an appropriate place to do the conference calls. Most of the time he was actually in the nursery doing the conference calls from his laptop. Mark: Right. So I want to get into a couple of big topics here. I want to talk about what were the characteristics that made this business and you already talked a little bit about this but what were the characteristics that made this business so attractive? Because I also know that we suggested to Paul going out at a 3.5. He's the one that wanted 3.3 for the asking price on this. That's the multiple that we're asking on the earnings. So I want to go into what was it that made this such a hot listing where people just needed to look at the teaser that we gave and that alone generated 200 plus inquiries within the first 24 hours? So what's going on there and then second I want to go through a little bit more of the process that you went through in selecting the buyers that were going to get those conference calls. Because out of 250 finding 15 you know I know a lot of buyers out there would be like well how would I become one of those 15 if I'm going to be competing against this? And then last I mean this is kind of the darker side now or the bad side I guess of what we have to do when you have a hot listing like this is we have to disappoint a number of people that actually really want this business but lose out in a bid for it. So I want to go over those three categories with you and then obviously Joe you're better at this podcasting thing than I am so if there's something I'm missing let me know. Joe: Can you repeat that last part again, please? Mark: You are better at this podcasting thing than I am but I still have the number one episode thank you. Joe: And two and three, yes you've got them all, but you do the title so I think there's a little trickery going on it. Mark: And I used to do the promotion too so … your podcasts easy for me what with number one. Joe: I mean you talked about the four pillars; risk, growth, transfer ability, and documentation. And when you go through these things Paul's business just checks all of these off and all the subcategories within those checks them all off. He owned his own brand. He developed it himself. It's in a niche that is out there and there are other brands but he picked a … he specifically chose a niche within a larger niche to serve a certain segment of these people to start with. So there's a growth opportunity to go. He picked the sort of beginners in this sport. He didn't go with the top end of the product. He went with a middle of the road product that beginners … a price point that beginners would enjoy. So right away you could say okay well I'm learning this business and now I'm going to take this to the new level and go with the more professional people that play this sport. It's not quite professional but retired professionals can play. So he did a really nice job there in picking the category. It was just by happenstance. He happened to be on vacation visiting his folks in Arizona and saw this game that they are playing and said what the heck is that? Looked it up, studied it, researched it and it started growing like crazy and chose to go in that category. A registered trademark, beautiful brand, beautiful packaging, and again let the business age. We've been talking for probably nine months and it was getting close to the 24 month mark but we got through that Christmas holiday season. This particular business is not fourth quarter heavy seasonal. It's actually better in the spring and summer months. So we got prior to the spring and summer months so that a new one would have a great advantage with an upswing in the summer months. It was clean books, SBA eligible which helps cast a broader net to probably half the offers. I can't say half because they were nine. So four out of the nine offers, five out of the nine were SBA offers. The growth trends were fantastic; 80, 90, 100% year over year, month over month growth. It looked really good comparing month to month and from year to year. Transfer ability; super easy, he owned the brand. He wasn't reselling anything. He had a good relationship with his manufacturers. And the documentation, of course, good SOP's in place. He did it all himself so there weren't VA's that were combing [inaudible 00:11:42.3] anybody else or people that works on his house or anything like that needed to transfer. This sort of intangible thing that I think took this to the next level is the person behind the business. He's not transferring with the business but he is so, so likeable and so trustworthy; just the full story behind him. And I'm not suggesting that everybody goes and becomes a CPA, quits their job, and works from home and be a stay at home dad. But people want to invest in a business and buy something from somebody that they like and they trust. As Mike Jackness said on a call recently you have to be a good human being in order to get the deal done. It needs to work for both parties. And just describing who Paul is and then how he is in the video and how he came across, he's just a good person and people wanted to buy the business from him. Mark: Yeah, I'm looking at the teaser right now. It's cool if I read some of the teaser, right? Joe: Yeah of course. Mark: All right so again I'm just looking at this. I'm … this is selfish on my part, the next listing I put out I want to get 250 inquiries because that's awesome. I mean that's great for our clients. All right so I'm looking through this and look in through the prism of those four pillars of risk, growth, transfer ability, documentation. Risk; Amazon businesses, this is primarily Amazon. The biggest thing that I find and maybe you'd disagree is that it needs to be defensible against competition. In here I see towards the bottom there's a trademark and the brand is brand registered, there we go. There are over 2,000 reviews you are … these are getting harder and harder to fake. So you're speaking towards this … the main risk that people associate with Amazon. Right away people are thinking oh awesome that's great. Growth; this is rapidly growing. You leaved this but this is rapidly growing as one of America's fastest growing sports. So A. this business is growing, B. this niche is growing; two really good things, so growth is checked off pretty easily. You have some other stuff in here. Transfer ability; the owner, single owner, dedicates approximately 15 hours per week running the business. I could do that right? Who can't do 15 hours a week on something? And then lastly documentation; the owner is a former CPA. Do you need to say anything else? I think you checked each of those boxes with a giant red check mark to say everyone looking at this; this thing is going to check all of these boxes and become really valuable. It turned out surprisingly enough to be true. These four pillars work. Joe: Yeah, they do. They do. And one of the pillars is growth but within that is growth opportunities and growth trends. And the opportunities I'll dig into the package itself. I can't quite remember but he had launched new SKUs in 2018 and so we look at the revenue when did he launch those and the revenue by SKU during that time period. And it was clear that some of these SKUs had gained some traction in 2018 but they hadn't been available for the full 12 months. So that's a built in path to growth. So it's one other thing that buyers liked. And then when you … I mean that teaser it obviously checks all of those four pillars but then when you get into the package and we recorded a video, a video interview with him via Xoom like we're doing now. Obviously, people are listening to mostly audio but we do the video as well. And he's in his home you can see the kitchen in the background and he's got the packaging and he holds up the packaging and it's just beautiful. It's a really nice product and this is again hard for people to duplicate but this particular product it's just cool. It's just a cool niche and a cool place to be and he did a really nice job with the packaging. He did everything right as far as I'm concerned and obviously as far as buyers are concerned as well. Mark: Yeah, one thing I want to touch on here because we talked about this a lot for buyers that you want to be likable and come across well to the potential sellers. But it works both ways too right? I mean obviously, somebody who's selling who's a complete jerk probably isn't going to get too far with us because the process is just too difficult. So most of the … most of our clients are great people anyway but there are some people who have just magnetic personalities. And for this deal, you for I think one of the first times we experimented or you experimented by doing more video conferencing between buyers and sellers on that. How did that impact the deal and what should buyers take away from boy these guys want to do a video conference should I turn on my camera or should I, oh no, no I don't really have good lighting for this and a good set up for it. Joe: Do it. One of the best calls we had was with a guy named Noah. And he hadn't planned on doing video because he was on his dad's party boat. I know he's 35 years old but he's helping his father move this big boat from one port to another because it's being sold. And Paul and I are on video and we said the video is optional and said it's recommended but optional. And he said well both of you guys are there and he goes I'm kind of embarrassed. I'm on my dad's boat. I'm on a boat. I'm like we have to see it, turn it on. Mark: It's great. Joe: Yeah. His dad was in the background moving stuff around and he's shooing him out of the frame. It was fantastic. So Noah was like able and memorable and that stuck with Paul. Paul wanted to sell the business to Noah at the end of the call. So that makes a huge difference. Not everybody did it. There were two or three that were in the top three. Yeah, obviously three when the top three but two or three that stuck out. Two of them did a video one of them didn't do video. The very first person that we had a call with he chose not to do video. He made a great offer and he … we came close on having him but we ended up … Paul ended up choosing someone else. But I think you do the video. I'm doing it more and more and if you've got an opportunity as a buyer to do a video if your broker allows that then, by all means, do it. Mark: I think on the sell side this is something just to note. To people listening, we're going to be doing this more and more because it really makes a difference on the sell side as well. Sellers most likely will be doing video. And I love that he was able to just hold up some of the product on the video to be able to show it there directly. I mean how cool is that? Joe: People are … I mean they're buying a business potentially just based on the black and white information that we put in a package. It's worked for years but we moved to doing videos in the interviews and making it part of the full business summary. 24 months ago I remember doing the very first one. It was horrible. I just did audio actually. I recorded it on my phone and it was horrible but beneficial. And now we've moved beyond that to video. You get to look relatively in the likes of someone's eyes and gauge whether you trust them or not and if you're going to put your life savings on the line and buy their business. And I think it just makes a tremendous amount of information. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. That's really cool. And again this is coming from somebody like myself that does not like video … doing video personally. I tend to be one of those shut the camera off types of guys but I'm more and more warming up to it and definitely getting more accustomed to it as well. So that's pretty cool. And also the odd story, by the way, I know our content director Chris Moore and Chris I know you're listening to this you're going to hate this that I'm saying this but some of the most memorable conversations I've had with people have been in the oddest places. The podcast with Chad Annis where he was in his RV and I could see the pine trees out in the background or Andrew from ECF Live, eCommerceFuel, awesome forum, he was in his van holding up a microphone. I'm like this is great. It's this weird background that only entrepreneurs understand. Joe: Exactly it's classic entrepreneur stuff. You know people when I'm having calls with them and valuations and you hear the dog barking in the background oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm like you're an entrepreneur you're going to hear mine any minute. This is the life that we live. It's great. So back to the points, the last point I want to make in terms of what makes a difference … what made a difference for this particular business I think is the images. Paul provided me with great images for the package. And he had them because he had professional photography. And it helped. Obviously, everyone knows that runs an Amazon business what a difference good images make. But he had great images of packaging, of the product being used by human beings having fun and all that stuff. And I was able to litter them throughout the package and it just brought the whole thing to life. And I think it made a bit of a difference too. Mark: Yeah, you know something I've said over the years I've told you Joe and the others here at Quiet Light is that some of the packages that we put together are supposed to tell the story of the business. And I look for that with every business I represent. Like what is the thread that I want to tell you? What is the common thread throughout this? The data and everything else supports a story. And hey people love stories right? That's … we're all drawn to them. Joe: Right. And you said data, I just want to say one more thing I keep looking at the package and I'm like there's another thing. One more thing they gave me was data; data from the outside world that proved that this is one of America's fastest growing recreational sports. So I was able to link to outside magazine articles and newspaper articles and outside sources that backed up what he was saying and what I was saying in the package which is really, really helpful. Mark: Okay, I might regret this question because I don't want to go long on the episode here but you said more than once that he was just a really likable guy. Do you know what made him likeable? It's such a hard question to ask, right? How can somebody be more likable than another person? We've identified when Walker did an acquisition through Quiet Light Brokerage thanking the seller; taking the time to thank our client and saying thank you for agreeing to sell me your business and how much of a difference that made at that point. Was there anything that kind of stood out outside of the video that really made him stand apart? Joe: He was who we described him to be which was a CPA, a stay at home dad, and honest, and uncomfortable in front of the camera, and vulnerable, and real. He never watched the video that I did with him. I told him. He's like I might watch it because I hope that was okay. I was really conscious here and there. I'm like well let's not watch it because you were great. You were human. You were real. And I'm not editing anything out of it and I'm not redoing it because you were great. People are going to love you because you're just normal. And he never watched it. I don't know if he's … I ought to ask him if he's gone back and watched it since we've got it under contract. But he was just real. Just real and honest and he wasn't selling. He was just stating the facts and that's one of the things that we do … I get excited so maybe it feels like selling but stating the facts is what he did. He didn't try to pitch or sell. He was just being himself; likable. Mark: That's … I think I heard that somewhere recently about authenticity among like millennials and I would broaden that out and say among those within internet realm because we've seen so much stuff that it's so easy to colossal or make yourself look bigger or better or more polished than you are. I think people within the internet world we tend to value authenticity a bit more than people might think. And so that vulnerability I think is a key. I'm not saying that you put on a show like oh look at me I'm all vulnerable. Hey, look if you are really confident in what you're doing be confident. Be true to who you are. That comes through. You can tell that in people, right? You can tell when they're being real or when they're trying to make themselves sound better than they actually think they are. Joe: Absolutely, no doubt about it. You want to go on to process and what we do there? Mark: Yeah. I want to know. So 15 conference calls tell me … again mistake that you probably made in this and you told me this, I'm not accusing you of this; launching a listing during two conferences. You were sick that week. You were flying to two different cities, driving to one city with me as well. So how did you manage getting that many inquiries, that many requests for conference calls with everything else going on? Joe: Well, it actually worked out pretty well because I was not feeling well and I was at the conference and I said I am not doing this over the next two days we're going to push it all the next week. And it enabled me to communicate in writing with all the people that inquired, all the people that … look there were a couple of hundred in the first few hours of course but those that I've spoken to before that know the process they reached right out to me. They called me, they texted me, they e-mailed me and said, Joe, I want to talk to this guy. I want to get on a conference call. Because they know that's the process. And so those that have followed our process, looked at as many listings as possible so you know the right fit when it comes along and you can act quickly did just that and reached out to me. And so I just walked it all off and we scheduled the calls. For the process when we had the calls if anyone hasn't been on them, us the broker we talk as little as possible. We make introductions, hand the call over to the buyer to give a little bit of background on themselves and then go right into their calls. We put ourselves on mute and in this case, I took myself off camera as well and we listen and we jump in if we can help out but for the most part we stay quiet until the very end of the call and then we just wrap things up. At the end of each day, I had a quick wrap up call with Paul and I said okay you've had three today, its Monday, you've had three, who do you like the most? And then on Tuesday, I said all right you've had six who are your top two? And the same people kept rising to the surface. Although people near the end of the week very quickly got to the … Noah I think was probably on Wednesday or Thursday. So we ran through the process and I think one mistake I made Mark in hindsight when I look at it, I knew it was going to be a frenzy and as much as people think oh multiple offer situation you going over asking price etcetera. We did. Yes, we had them and yes we did go over asking price because we priced it right. We didn't price it too high or too low; we priced it right. And that gets more increase than anything else buyers know. We chose to go best and final. And I think in hindsight I probably would have had two rounds so that … you know what we did was we told everyone we're going to have a call with every buyer. You may submit offers prior to the following Monday at noon if you wish too but we will not be making a decision until close the business the following Tuesday. You've got to have it in my Monday at noon and we'll make a final decision close the business Tuesday. It gave us a little time to review. Everyone gave it to us in the same exact format that I provided so it was easy. We didn't have to interpret different offers. And most kept it simple which is what I knew Paul was looking for and what I suggested that they do. One made it a little complex but I know them and I know what their goals are. They're raising funds so they've got investors to satisfy. And then tell me what you did? We get a clear deadline of Monday at 12 pm Eastern Standard Time. I got one that came in maybe at 4 o'clock that day and one that came in at 9 o'clock that day, pm, with apologies and a text saying I thought it was midnight. Would you have allowed those offers to be presented or would you've been cold and said no? Mark: I don't … it depends on the situation. That's a tough one especially because of the [inaudible 00:27:08.9] when you said 12, and 12 is I mean you can interpret that both ways. Joe: 12 no we had a total of nine offers. We ended up with 14 conference calls because one fell out. We had nine offers. Mark: No I mean you put your deadline at 12. Joe: Why? I said 12 pm Eastern Daylight Time. Mark: Yeah but I mean you have to think like 12 pm, you think night and you know. Maybe I'm the only one that can read time but— Joe: I don't … I only speak Eastern as I tell everyone else in every other time zone. There's too many time zones and I just say Eastern. I try not to coordinate with their times anyway now we were accommodating. In hindsight I think we probably should've narrowed it down to the top two or three and gone back out to them. But the reality is that when you have a seller that has multiple offers it's hard on the seller. First is that they're on … in this case 14 conference calls that are lasting about an hour each. That's 14 hours. And then he's talking to me for 15 to 20 minutes at the end of each day as well. That's a lot of time in one week. More time than he spends running the business right? 15 hours a week of running it. More time selling it than running it. And then you've got to make a decision based upon we had one offer that was … let's see; it was $150,000 over asking price. Mark: Wow. Joe: A pretty big jump. Mark: Yeah. Joe: That one was an SBA offer. So the benefit there is that not only is it $150,000 over asking price but it's going to take upwards of 60 days longer to close than a cash buyer. So he's going to put another $50,000 in his pocket by waiting an extra two months. I mean just a cash windfall right? Mark: I want to disagree with you on something real quick before we get too far away from this point because it said that— Joe: Is it back to me being the better podcaster or something else? Mark: I'm going to say that to the end after this because I think I'm doing such a stellar job at this interview. Joe: You're doing great. Mark: It's easy when you know the person you're interviewing and you know the story as well. But I'm going to disagree with you on is should you have gone a second round with the offers. Okay, that would be the standard process when you're not expecting multiple offers and when maybe … like if I have a listing that's been sitting around for a month and we narrowed down and we happen to have three buyers that kind of called us around the same time then it makes sense. Because the buyers don't know that they're in a competitive situation but … and I might sound a little harsh here but hey if you're a buyer and you're in a situation where you know it is competitive, and the buyers, in this case, knew it was competitive, that there was a lot of stuff going on. Joe: Yeah. Mark: My guidance has been the same like put in your best and final. There's two sides of that coin; the first … one side is don't try and necessarily get a discount because the market is going to speak. It is going to push that price up necessarily. And two don't over bid what you're comfortable bidding. Find out if I get it at this price I'm going to be happy or satisfied at least? If I go above I'm always going to wonder if I paid too much. Find that, make the offer, and get it done. So I actually think that you did the right thing by doing one round instead of two rounds. I would recommend the two round again if it was kind of a surprise multiple offer situation. Joe: Well, I think … you know I had one person tell me they wish there was a second round. But it was crystal clear in writing in black and white that it was best and final. And so I took his suggestion and constructive criticism in a way that I thought maybe was worthwhile and we could do a second round next time possibly. But when you're in a multiple offer situation it's emotional for the seller. Mark: Yeah. Joe: Believe it or not people it's hard. It's hard for the broker as well. So I just want to reemphasize one thing that you said and that is you don't want people to get … the buyers to get emotional in their offer. We want them to make an offer that they're going to be happy with after they're under letter of intent because we want two happy individuals at closing; the buyer and the seller. It has to be a good transaction for both of them so we don't want them to overbid and so we work really hard to make sure that they're making an offer that they're comfortable with that assuming everything's good in due diligence that we'll get all the way through the closing with. Mark: Yeah and I think if you're a seller out there you're thinking why wouldn't you want to get something above what they're comfortable with? The reason is simple; the offer is the beginning of a longer journey, right? You've got to go through that due diligence, you've got to go through transition, planning, there's a lot of time in there for those cold feet to really, really freeze up a little bit. And for the buyer to say I made a mistake I got caught up in the heat of passion and now yeah. And I want to emphasize one other thing that you said here and that is we think multiple offers is a really good situation and it is but for anyone that hasn't been in that situation before where you have multiple buyers all of whom are very qualified to buy your business and given you good offers. It's really tough to choose because you can't choose five offers. You've got to choose one. Joe: Yeah. Mark: And in your head, you're going to be thinking I've got to get this right because I don't want to go through this again or I don't want to go through this due diligence process and then have to go back and what are people going to think I have to go back. So it's actually really stressful and one of those good problems to have but still a problem. Joe: And that's where I think the video … the folks that did video you know a better connection with Paul little bit although one of the top three didn't do the video but just a super nice guy. I mean I just wanted … we both, Paul wanted him to be able to buy the business. He travels all over the country all the time and has two teenagers that he just doesn't see enough and he wants to work from home. Mark: So there was that personal connection. Joe: Well, it's that personal connection tugging at Paul's emotional heartstrings, at mine. I think he's a great guy. I would love to help him find an amazing business so he spends more time with his family and becomes an entrepreneur which he's not now. He's in the corporate world. Mark: All right we're getting close to the end so let's wrap. I want to get to the end here and talk about— Joe: Sad news. I'm sorry. Sad news having to tell eight people they didn't get it. Mark: Then also I want to know the metrics. Because I know you had recommended to him go out, we should go out at a 3.5 multiple. We covered that the beginning and he said I don't know if we need that you know as … being and Paul sounded like a great guy 3.3 is what it went out at. I'd like to know where the highest and lowest came in and then also the sad news portion having to tell so many people that wanted this business sorry we're going to keep you in mind, we'll keep looking for you. Joe: Yeah, again I wanted it to go at a 3.5. I thought it was worth a push and I let him know it's a bit of a risk. We haven't sold one at 3.5 that's 100% Amazon business with discretionary earnings this "low". It's still 440,000. We wound up with the highest one being at 3.6, 150,000 over asking and the one that he chose was 50,000 over asking at 3.4, 3.41. And it was an all cash buyer and had the funds on hand. Had had the funds and had the experience and has bought Amazon business before so he looked at the full package. Cash buyer, close in 30 days, hiring Centurica for due diligence but understands Amazon really well and that training and transition was going to be a breeze. It's the full package and that's why he chose that particular buyer. Mark: Yeah, again we've talked before about people winning with lower bids. Not necessarily being the top bidder but still being able to win. And we've also talked about the idea that financial motivation isn't always the sole motivation right? People sell for a variety of reasons and so being able to understand, as a buyer understand some of those secondary goals can really help you out quite a bit. Joe: Let me just jump in, it's not always a cash buyer that wins as well. If everybody remembers the story I've had Syed Balkhi on the podcast and he chose a buyer that was an SBA buyer at full price on his business versus a cash buyer because he just really bonded with that SBA buyer. And he carried a 10% seller note on that particular listing too. So he chose an SBA buyer and a seller note over an all cash buyer. So SBA wasn't necessarily the problem it was just a combination of a number of things and Paul really wanted to get the business sold. And he is kind of a nervous guy a little bit so he didn't want to have to wait upwards of 90 days; 30 was comfortable. Mark: All right what final thing should people know about this particular deal? Because this is a fascinating little case study of just a listing that's going crazy, how to act on the buy side, and also how to set your business up from the sell side. So what final things should we probably round this episode with? Joe: Well I hate to finish it with … you know just because this one sold a 3.4 doesn't mean yours is worth 3.4. This one has all of these little points and metrics to it. I launched one this week Monday at 3.3 and some of those same buyers, those eight buyers a few of them have looked at it and said no. Others are comfortable with the niche and like it and see the upside to it so I think we'll get at or close to asking. But just being prepared running a real business, think about it from a buyer's point of view. They're going to be investing their life savings and if you were them what type of business and what type of person would they want to buy that business from? We want them to succeed. You want them to succeed. And that's really what you need to focus on. Mark: That's fantastic. Hey, thanks for sharing all of this. I know that you always have the best case studies mainly been because you do the most deals at Quiet Light. So thanks for sharing this one. The next one I'm going to write a better teaser than yours and I'm going to try and get like 251 inquiries in the first 24 hours. Joe: You taught me how to do it so I know you can do it. Mark: Well, then I'll make sure that I'll let you know in every podcast. All right cool, hey thanks, Joe. I appreciate all of it. Joe: You bet. Links and Resources: https://www.quietlightbrokerage.com/ Listen and subscribe on Itunes
Bill D'Alessandro believes that one of the most fulfilling things in life is working on hard things with smart people. The allure of the 4-hour work-week mentality can easily take over when starting out as an ecommerce entrepreneur, but might not be the smartest tactic for all businesses. There is now a trend gearing businesses towards something more lasting. Bill was living the 4-hour work week dream until he decided to change it up and "grow up" in his business. Since having made the decision to hire, Bill has seen business grow as his company, Element Brands, grows. He's now able to step away less often but more easily because he runs his business with quality people, that he pays well, and who are motivated to help him grow. Bill is based in Charlotte, North Carolina and currently owns a portfolio of nearly 10 e-commerce sites primarily focused on household goods and personal care. Though Bill started the entrepreneur life as a digital nomad, he recently made the the switch to a corporate warehouse/office location in Charlotte and has 22 full time employees. Episode Highlights: The building of the Elements portfolio and how that process came about. Using in-house vs. a broker for brand acquisition. How Bill came to the choice of creating this more traditional business style. What Bill's typical day is like. An example of when an employee saved Bill money as a result of their loyalty to the company. How the structure allows Bill to disconnect thanks to the competent team he has in place. Tips on hiring, vetting, and finding the cream of the crop. Bill's own hiring process. Preferences for outsourcing people vs in-house training them. Noncompetes Bill has in place and how they work well for him. There are plenty of people out there interested in not being entrepreneurs but are interested in helping build great brands. Transcription: Mark: Okay one of the most popular business books that I can remember coming out in the past 15 years has been the 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. And I'm going to admit I was a little annoyed when this book came out because all of a sudden everybody tried to become Tim Ferriss juniors where they were having their 2-hours per week that they were setting aside to answer e-mails and take phone calls. And so if I needed to reach out to them they would explain to me … they would say well I only answer e-mails during this time or I only take phone calls during this time and of course if it didn't work with my schedule tough luck because they had their 4-hour workweek and they only had half of that dedicated to e-mails. And I think a lot of people went to that 4-hour workweek. During that time there was this allure of I can sit on the beach, I can take vacations and have this business that's completely automated. That still has some allure today but more and more I hear people talking about being grownups in their business. Changing the way that they're going about their business, hiring staffs instead of just doing pure outsourcing, building something that's a little bit more lasting than what we've seen with some of that 4-hour workweek sort of business structure. So, Joe, I know you talked to a friend of ours Bill D'Alessandro. He was living that dream of the 4-hour workweek for a long time and then so to speak and Bill I would not say that you are a kid by any means but he grew up in business. Joe: Yeah, he did and let me say right now folks that I'm having my house power washed so you're going to hear the people in the background. Mark: That's why I was talking so long I was hoping that it would stop but it did not stop. Joe: We're all entrepreneurs, right? Life of an entrepreneur, I'm working from home. These guys already took a lunch break and they're back and so you're going to hear them every now and then. Anyway lunch … I had lunch with Bill D'Alessandro. He lives in Charlotte … I live just north of Charlotte a couple of months ago and we were talking … Bill just got married and we were talking about the honeymoon and he said yeah no it was great because I hardly checked in. I was gone for two weeks and I hardly checked in at all. And then he goes back when I was a digital nomad I went to the same country, the same beach, but I felt like I had to work all the time because it was me and me only. I had to tell my VAs what to do and I had to do certain things every day. On this vacation I turned it all off because I had good quality people working for me, running my business while I was away on my honeymoon and I was making money. And it just sort of clicked. Like you said, you just said grown up right? And that's really… I mean it is what it is but you don't mean it to be and I don't mean it to be offensive to those that choose not to run a business that way. I've sold many businesses where there's one owner operator and that's it doing his thing. Look at that you can actually see the people power washing in my window in the background. Mark: You know what it looks like? It looks like a scene from Oceans 12 where the guys on the background can really be is just setting up a big con on you Joe. You better look out. I hope you did a background check on these guys. Joe: It's hilarious they actually have giant trash bags on and just the holes cut out for the sleeves. And literally, I've got a house … the entire house right now they're choosing to do right in front of my office in the windows outside. So if you want to see it and see the trash bag folks go to the actual video instead of just listening to the audio. Mark: And we'll make sure we put this one video up; at least this clip. Joe: At least this clip. Anyway, it just sort of … it was an epiphany with … Bill has an interesting story. I first learned about him back in 2015 in Savannah at the eCommerceFuel event and Darren was there with us; Darren Harden a former broker at Quiet Light. [inaudible 00:04:19.8] Joe you got to meet this guy he's raised like 20 million dollars and he's building a portfolio of e-commerce companies. I don't know if that dollar amount was right. I didn't feel the need to ask but I got a tour of Bill's facility down there in Charlotte. He's got an actual warehouse. He ships it all himself. He's got rack space, he's got staff, he's got warehouse employees that he pays really well and they found ways to make him more money by cutting costs. And that's really what this is all about, it doesn't make sense to outsource all of this stuff two of 3PL, two VAs or does it make more sense for you in your business to bring it out in-house and run it and go to work every day, take vacations and not worry about it because you've got good people in place to do the job for you. Mark: Yeah, he talked on this topic if I remember right at eCommerceFuel last year and let's give a shout out to Andrew Youderian from eCommerceFuel Live. Anybody that is in e-commerce I always recommend, take a look at eCommerceFuel as a community to join. That's a fantastic community. But he gave this talk in eCommerceFuel Live and I remember being struck by it because it was something that we haven't been hearing. And I'm going to double down on what you said, Joe, if you choose that lifestyle sort of business which was the business where you are running just remotely and maybe not four hours but maybe eight hours a week that's a really good and viable option as well. I think a lot depends on your personal priorities but sometimes we'd look down at those businesses that require an office and going in and having employees and stuff like that. It is a really good alternative as well for a lot of people. I'm interested to listen to this one. Again hear what Bill has to say about this and kind of how he made that transition over to a fully staffed business. Joe: I'll tell you right now there's no doubt we'll have Bill back on some day and we'll be talking about his 50, 60, 70 million dollar exit because that's the path that he's going down. Now quickly before we go to that Mark we talked about eCommerceFuel, we talked about Rhodium, right now I'll just name three or four other conferences that we're going to and then we'll go right to the podcast. Mark: We can actually name them. So Prosper Show is coming up if you do anything with Amazon … that's in March and if you do anything with Amazon go to Prosper Show for sure. We're going to have a presence at T&C at Traffic & Conversion. Joe: San Diego in February. Mark: That's right and then we're going to be doing Blue Ribbon Mastermind with Ezra Firestone; an awesome marketer. Everybody knows who Ezra is. We're going to be at that event as well. Joe: Miami in January, there's one more in there right? Mark: Capitalism.com absolutely … Ryan Moran's conference. We're going to be there and I'm looking forward to that as well. That's in Texas right? Joe: Yes, it's going to be in Dallas. So we've had Ryan on, we've had Ezra on, we've had [inaudible 00:07:01.8] on, we've had James on; we've had them all on. They're great folks and we'll be at each of those conferences and we'd love to get together with you guys for dinner, for an event that we might put on, something along those lines. Please let us know if you're going to go to those conferences so we can connect. Mark: Sounds great. Joe: All right, off to the podcast. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and on today's podcast, I've got Bill D'Alessandro. A lot of folks from eCommerceFuel know Bill very well. Bill is from the Charlotte area right here in North Carolina and owns a portfolio of e-commerce sites and is a regular guest on the eCommerceFuel podcast. Bill, how are you today? Bill: Doing well Joe. Good to see you, man. Joe: You too man, you too. So I saw you a couple of months ago, I got a nice tour of the warehouse and you're moving to a much much bigger one. And we talked a little bit about your experience and what you've gone through over the last several years but I want you to tell the folks that are listening who you are and what you do and give them a little bit of background. So we can start with that and then we'll go from there. Bill: Yeah, sure. So for the folks that don't know me … Hi, my name is Bill D'Alessandro. I'm the CEO and founder of Elements Brands. Elements Brands is a portfolio of consumer products brands. We focus on what we call household goods and personal care. So that's everything from sunscreen, shampoo, body lotion, lip balm, laundry detergent; all sorts of things like that. We own nine brands today and are under LOI to acquire a 10th. I started life as sort of your classic 4-hour workweek digital nomad entrepreneur but since then the business has evolved and I've kind of made a conscious choice. And now we're located … Elements Brands is located in Charlotte, North Carolina. We have as of this day of recording 22 full time employees and growing. And as Joe mentioned we are moving into a new 51,000 square foot office/warehouse kind of facility. So it's a far cry from my early digital nomad days. Joe: Yeah, it's definitely a far cry but one of the things that was interesting is that you kind of have more freedom in terms of when you want to take off from work. You can take off, turn your phone off and you've got a great staff there. So let's talk a little bit about that. I want to talk a little first though Bill about how you managed to build a portfolio of nine brands and you've got one under LOI. Did you start with one small brand and kept adding them on? Did you raise some funds? Did you go to family and friends? How did that work out for you? What was your process? Bill: Yeah. So I started the 1st brand in 2010. I got it up to low hundreds of thousands of revenue; basically just enough to fund my digital nomad lifestyle. And at that point … you know I kind of did that for a while, and I realized that as I wrote on my blog Thailand will not make you happy. And I realize that it was fun but you go to Thailand, you sit on the beach and you're still you. You're sitting with you on the beach and all of your hopes, dreams, aspirations, problems, demons; all those things come with you to Thailand. And I also felt like I was kind of wasting my potential. So I thought all right how do I make this thing a lot bigger? And I come from an investment banking and M&A background so my thinking was I know how to run an e-commerce brand, I also know there are a bunch of people out there selling e-commerce brands, why don't I go buy … I mean roll them up onto a single platform. So that led to our 1st acquisition in 2013 for which I basically used my entire life savings at the time and borrowed some money. And we bought that company and then in 2015 basically based on cash flow from the 1st one and we bought the 2nd one in 2015. And then we bought two in 2016. Then we bought another one in 2017. And then as I mentioned we'll do another acquisition this year. So … and then also I was fortunate enough doing work with you to sell one of my other distracting side businesses too so I can focus on Elements Brands full time. Joe: Yeah. You know it's funny because I don't think we've mentioned that at all when we had lunch a few weeks ago. You've built these brands and we have a relationship … Quiet Light Brokerage is a business brokerage firm but we haven't sold any of these to you. You've sourced most of these deals on your own through building networks and buying smaller troubled brands and turning them around directly for the most case wouldn't you say? Bill: Yeah for the most part we … you're always number one in my heart Joe but we do talk occasionally with some other brokers who shall not be named. And we also have fulltime staff here at Elements that is going out calling brands all the time to see if they're interested in selling and to see if Elements Brands would be a good home for them. I have a guy and he's an ex private equity guy and he spends his all day every day talking to new brands. Joe: So let me say right now, anybody that's listening, you can go to ElementsBrands.com and find Bill and his staff. If you've got a household brand of … what size Bill? Does it matter what size if they've got something that might be a good fit do you think they should reach it out to you? Bill: Yes, so we look at basically between half a million to a million in revenue in the low end to probably about 10 million on revenue on the high end. Joe: Got you. Now if you want to save Bill the trouble call me and I'll put together a great package and then I'll call Bill. Bill: Exactly which we actually love Joe. Because on a lot of times when the seller does have a broker, it makes the whole thing go a lot more smoothly so call Joe first. Joe: The guys at 101 commerce, RJ Jalichandra from 101, they're buying literally 101 FBA businesses. He said the same thing on a panel of buyers a couple of months ago at the Brand Builders Summit. He said look we've done this, we've done a lot, we'd prefer to work with a broker because all the vetting is done, the package is put together. It makes our buying process much smoother and much quicker. So please go with a broker and they're going to choose a select few that they'll work with and that's it. It does make it quicker for you guys for sure. Why don't we talk about a little bit of the advantages of a guy like yourself who I have to classify as a grown up in a sense. And I say that in the nicest possible way in putting myself down because I'm sitting here in my home office and I have no employees. None of us do at Quiet Light. We're all independent contractors brokering from different parts of the country in some cases we all live here talking to Bryan. He's usually in a different location. You, on the other hand, you've got 21, 22 employees that you are responsible for. You have a warehouse, you have offices. You are building a real business that maybe someday components of it will be sold off to private equity or the entire thing will be. How was that choice other than you just saying you're limiting your potential by not doing it, how has that choice come to and what has it been like for your lifestyle as opposed to that 4-hour workweek that you started off with. Bill: Yeah so it was very intentional. I'm sitting here in my office right now and to my left here are 22 folks. I've just got my door closed in recording with you but I come in every day. I'm in typically before nine o'clock and I leave at six-ish. I take lunch. I only work about a mile off from my house. I kind of … the realization came to me while I was doing the digital nomad thing that one of the most fulfilling things in life is working on the hard things with smart people. And you know just as humans we love to solve hard challenges and it's really rewarding to succeed with other people. And I realize that as a digital nomad a lot of the times I was working with VAs or contractors who were basically just pictures on Upwork profiles to simplify but I didn't really have a relationship with these people and they … even if I had a full time VA I couldn't grab a beer with them after work. And frankly when you're hiring VAs oftentimes you're operating on a shoestring and there's a language barrier and you're generally … and I will generalize here but I will say if you are operating a whole business on VAs and you may love your VAs but there's a whole other level of caliber of employee that is out there that you've closed yourself off to because you're not willing to give them a W2 and health insurance and their office that they're meant to. A lot of really really brilliant people want that. Joe: Can you give an example of that? I know that we talked a little bit about your warehouse workers and how you pay them higher than average, there's no turnover and they find ways to save you money and increase your profit. Can you give an example of maybe what we talked about there? I don't remember the specific details … a thing to do with honestly this cardboard boxes so- Bill: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:15:12.13] I might have tuned out a little but the overall picture was you took care of your people and you paid them well. They appreciated it and I think that they saved you a fair amount of money just by being loyal to you. Bill: Yeah so Joe what you're referring to is we do all of our own warehouse and logistic. So instead of using a 3PL, we've got a warehouse and we've got a crew here that packs boxes. We ship them out of here. And if I talk to other e-commerce entrepreneurs either A. they outsourced their 3PL and complain about how much their 3PL sucks. Or they operate their own warehouse and complain about turnover and how hard it is to manage a warehouse. So going into it we pay our folks here in the warehouse easily 30 to 40 or more percent more than the minimum wage that they can get somewhere else. And occasionally we bring temps in and they go oh my God for less money I was putting chickens in bags in an unconditioned warehouse last week this is amazing. And we've had … unfortunate to say because we pay well we have had zero turnovers in our warehouse. And our warehouse crew they're not packing Elements Brands orders in between packing other companies orders. So they're thinking about our problems all day. And we had our warehouse manager, she came to me and said I've been looking at the way all the laundry detergent comes in on pallets and I think it's not optimal. If we switch from eight packs to 12 packs I can fit X% more bags on a pallet and stack it higher and use more the footprint and it's going to save us 20 plus percent shipping per bag. And we did it and we saved five figures because of that. And a 3PL would never do that for you or a VA that is not physically present could never see that stuff and even notice it. What I love about having employees is having people that think about Elements Brands all day every day. Like they think about it in the shower, think about it on their commute to work, like it's the thing that they do. It's their job and their career and they want to be good at it so I just love it a lot. Joe: So by taking care of them and putting a good environment together, a good employment package for them what does it do for you and the other folks that are focused on building the brands and building a larger portfolio? Are you able to put more focus on that and less nitty gritty on some of the other things? Bill: Yeah I mean I at this point … so I just went on my honeymoon that for two weeks we went ironically to Thailand. Joe: You sat on the beach but you weren't alone, that's good. Bill: Yeah so I'm not alone I was [inaudible 00:17:39.6] yeah thanks. And while I was there you know I was halfway around the world and spotty cell service and I was basically fully disconnected and the team ran the business in a fully … to use a digital nomad term fully automated way. But it's not automated because I've got 22 people that come in here and they want to be good at their jobs. And they've got their own managers who come in to work every day and see them and if they don't come and there's … everybody says hey where are you I didn't see you today, is your stock end gone? So for me, I found that when I was working with VAs because there is no senior person who the buck stops with, that person is you. You can never really unplug. You might be able to travel or you might be able to unplug for a week but when you unplug for a week everything kind of stops; like nothing moves forward. It might be in stasis but nothing moves forward. So when I was gone for two weeks I came back and we had launched the targeting marketing campaigns and we wrote a new product and it had progressed pipe on. Stuff actually moves forward without me because we've got senior people with accountability and a bonus structure that incentivizes them. As such they come into work every day without me. So I think in a way being really committed and put down some roots and commit to not just being in one place but also commit to your people they commit back to you and it lets you have even more freedom than if you pursued this digital nomad thing hardcore. Joe: And the reality is that it's not just the digital nomad thing where you're having more freedom because you're not doing that. You can disconnect and recuperate on your honeymoon in Thailand on the beach for instance. But the beautiful thing is that while you are away you're not stressed about it and other people are working hard to make money for you. Bill: Yeah. Joe: They're getting paid for it and getting paid well for but that's really truly a beautiful thing. So you have 21, 22 people on staff. That can be one of the hardest things to do; it's to find good people. Do you have any secrets or tips on your process on how to find the right people and your interview process or techniques or just vetting them in getting to the cream of the crop? Bill: Yeah so as you alluded to hiring is the most important thing in business. And the more people I hire the more I realize how critical it is. Like the bigger, we get every time we hire somebody if I introduce one toxic person or one slacker into this group it poisons the whole well. So it gets harder and harder to get a job here as we get bigger and bigger which I don't know if I would get hired at my own company today. So we do a series of written application with there are some gotchas in there where you have to follow directions extremely precisely and if you don't you are disqualified. If you make it through the written application without stepping in it you get a phone screen. I try to keep those phone screens to 15, 20 minutes and during that time what I'm trying to figure out is A. do you really want this job or do you just apply to everything on the internet, B. are your salary expectations in line with what we intend to pay for this job, and C. are you somebody just off the top that I think has a positive personality that I want to work with. And you can do that in 15, 20 minutes if you would cut out the small talk; if you get right to it. Joe: And are you making every hiring decision or do you do the initial vetting or somebody else does it? Bill: So it used to be that I did everything. Now where at a point where my employees do the written application, phone screen, and the next bit of the process is a written assignment where it will say like in the case of if we're hiring somebody to work on Amazon we'll say here's one of our Asense what do you think could be improved? No length limit, go and we'll see when you get back. Or if we're hiring a graphic designer we'll say something like make an info graphic about go … something anybody can do, something that's pretty broad but you're going to know if somebody is a good graphic designer based on the effort that they put in and then the quality of that work output. And make sure homework assignments are good we typically bring in two to four for in person interviews and I sit in on the in person interview. And if you do well in the in person interview you're hired. And my message to the team is I'm never going to tell you we have … I'm never going to force you to hire someone you don't want to work with but I might veto somebody that I don't think is right for the company. Joe: Okay, so you get that certain veto power for sure. If they're not reporting directly to you, you let others make the decisions. Bill: Well up to the final interview, yes. Joe: Up to the final interview; got you. So if you're sitting with a group of e-commerce entrepreneurs that have physical products are you generally advocating bringing on staff and having your own warehouse as opposed to outsourcing or are you simply saying it's got to be right for you and you got to do what's right for your situation? Bill: Different models are good for different people. I think the … what I see myself as doing and the model that I've become convinced is very good in a lot of situations and people don't fully give a fair shape to is hiring full time employees and not hiring gig based contractors. And those full time employees … I think it's awesome if they're in the same physical location as you but even if they're not, if they're full time and you have video with them one on one every day and you create this personal relationship such that they don't have any other clients and such that they begin to build up a confidence about your business so you don't have to explain to them the task you want done at the beginning of every task. You want to build up this surf of confidence where they just know about your business and you can say hey do that and so much as widen it because they already work for you. So what I tend to advocate for is people really want to create this web of outsourcers or gig based people, I can say find a person … like you probably live in a town or near a town of a sizable amount of people and sizeable would be 100,000 or 200,000. Try to find somebody … consider finding somebody locally that's talented that's not a bottom of the barrel price type of person. Find a quality person locally and it will unlock you as a CEO because your time is way too valuable to be spent typing into at a box on Upwork in describing to someone how they should scrape locations from a website that you should not be doing that. So if you're willing to pay somebody $50,000 a year which if you're in the in the freelance world they're like holy crap it is like [inaudible 00:23:49.8] the money, right? But $50,000 a year buys you a college educated American in your town likely or less even who is probably pretty smart and got a good GPA. And he will come in every day and you can teach them. That's a good requirement. Joe: And be very very well. What about finding experts in certain areas that may not be available in your town? If you want to outsource your Facebook advertising and your Google advertising are you training and doing that in-house and putting them through courses and programs or are you hiring agencies to do that type of work? Bill: Yeah, so we … the answer is both with the preference for hiring and training. So when we're absolutely pinched we use agencies but we have hired and trained a bunch of people in Amazon specifically. I've put people through courses on Amazon. I put people through courses on Facebook ads. I put people through courses on YouTube because if you hire a smart person who did well in school you just say guess what this is graduate degree. I'm going to spend a couple thousand dollars, I'm going to put you through these courses, and I'm going to train you then on the fly. You're going to do … you're going to learn for 4 hours in the course and you're going to learn from the person you report to for 4 hours a day and before you know it you're up the curve in a month, maybe two. I find about two months is before is the curve until someone can be dangerous. Joe: Is there any particular online programs and courses that you always dwell that you go to? Bill: I've used Ezra's courses a fair bit; Ezra Firestone. I've used the guys at amazing.com, they operate a 40 bucks a month kind of subscription and there's a bunch of courses in there so I picked out a few. I've used the copyrighting course by [inaudible 00:25:29.4] for some people to just kind of learn and write e-commerce copy that converts. Those are ones that come to mind. Joe: Yeah for the folks that are- Bill: I basically look- Joe: I'm sorry Ezra's course is the Smart Marketer. We sat Ezra on the podcast. We actually just had a podcast go off, it will be a few weeks back once this airs with Bret Curry who created another course with Ezra on monetizing YouTube; smartmarketer.com you can find a lot of great courses there. I'm sorry, continue. Bill: There are others but if you invest a couple of thousand dollars in hiring someone you can create talent that you can't find in almost any city. I mean we live in this world where there is incredible amount of information available on the Internet in courses and it's relatively cheap. I mean a few grand you can … if you … people complain oh there's no Amazon expert, you can't hire them anywhere. Well, you can you should train them though. Joe: I love what you just said; you can create talent that you can't find by spending a couple thousand dollars on a course and finding the right person to go through it essentially getting their graduate degree. And you know what it does? It makes them employable for the rest of their life either with you or remotely if they decide to move on some day or maybe they'll become an entrepreneur themselves. That last point though, become an entrepreneur themselves, what do you do if anything in regards to non-competes? Because you're teaching a lot of people how to compete with you and they could step out of Elements Brands and perhaps go and launch their own business that might be competing with similar products. Do you have NDAs in place when you hire people? Bill: Yup, we do. We have non-competes and NDAs. I view it as once I train them and make them great it's now my responsibility to make sure they want to keep working for me. I want to give them access to nine soon to be 10 brands that they can work on. I mean I'm sure all the entrepreneurs out there listening remember you're like God I read all these articles but I can't do AB testing when I have 100 hits a week. Well I can teach them how to AB testing on a site that has 100 hits a minute. And you can do … pull in big leverage is just fun. So I got to make sure that they're having fun with me. And if somebody wants to go out and do their own thing I mean at this point nobody is running the whole business. My marketing folks are running marketing, they have no idea how the warehouse works. They have no idea how supply chain works. So it's harder than you would think for some of your employees to kind of see the whole business. And also … and this is the thing that I've really come to realize, I used to be of this mind that entrepreneurship is for everyone and everyone should be an entrepreneur and it is the best thing you could possibly do with your life. And I've started to realize that that's not true. There are a ton of people out there that don't want any part of this entrepreneurship thing and think it's stressful and uncertain and lonely and all these and they're just not cut … I don't even want to say they're not cut out for it. I'm saying their personality type is not fulfilled by it. So there's lots of really bright excellent people out there that are not entrepreneurs and they want to be employees and they want to be employed by a great company. And sometimes I interview people that I think they're to entrepreneurial and it makes them not a good fit. Joe: Right. And you know just to summarize everything I think you've done just that Bill, you've sort of … you're pulling big levers but you've checked all the boxes I think to someday have a sizable exit if you ever choose to do that. It could be 40, 50 years from now. It will be the one in buffet of the e-commerce world right there at Charlotte, North Carolina. But you're building amazing brands. You're really focused on building brands with great quality products and you're taking control of the whole process from beginning to end from the marketing to the fulfillment of it and you're taking care of your people. You're creating a local base of people that are going to focus on and think of your company first and helping building more value for the company, profits for the company that I have the feeling you go ahead and pay them back for through better facilities and more vacation time and bonuses and benefits and all that type of thing. You seem like a great guy to work for. If I ever decide to move on I might just try to fill up one of those applications but I think you'll probably stump me and I'll get thrown into the trash. Bill: We got a room in [inaudible 00:29:34.9] Joe. Joe: I won't pass. I won't pass, I know for sure. I'll just come down and have lunch with you instead. Bill, listen I know you've got to jump to another call. I appreciate your time thanks for sharing your story, your success on building a great brand, company environment, and not living that digital nomad lifestyle and creating more freedom for yourself. Hopefully, the folks will take some nuggets from this and do that as well. Bill: Yeah thanks for having me on Joe. Good to see you, man. Joe: Talk to you soon. Links and Resources: Element Brands Bill's Blog Bill's Twitter Upcoming Quiet Light e-commerce conference attendance: Prosper Show T & C Summit Blue Ribbon Mastermind CapCom Conference
Every year Andrew Youderian of EcommerceFuel surveys hundreds of store owners to better understand the trends in the ecommerce industry. Today Andrew and I review the report of last year's survey and make predictions for the future of ecommerce based on this data. If you're also an ecommerce store owner, we'd like to invite you to help us better understand the ecommerce landscape by answering next year's survey. Why participate? Andrew is shamelessly bribing you and me to participate in the survey--called State of the Merchant--by giving one lucky participant a roundtrip plane ticket to anywhere in the world. Last year's winner used his ticket for an epic 15 day, 6 country trip to Europe. More importantly though, you'll be participating in a research that's not done anywhere else. Your participation will give us a much clearer insight into what really goes on in the ecommerce jungle. Predictions for the future Below are predictions, some pretty bold, about the future of ecommerce based on this year's State of the Merchant data: Amazon will lose its spot as the number 1 go-to place for online shopping Facebook ads will get more expensive as more and more users leave the platform Conversion rate for dropshipping will decrease UPS and FedEx will offer Sunday deliveries for Amazon Amazon will launch their own delivery service to rival UPS and FedEx There will be a major legislation about sales tax Full Report You can view the full report in the infographic below. Click here to participate in next year's State of the Merchant Survey. Thanks for listening to this episode! Until the next one, happy selling.
Two years ago, Brett Curry from OMG Commerce would not have recommended advertising on YouTube. But today, he sees it the way we now look back at Facebook. When cost was cheap and the audiences were huge. YouTube gets a billion views a day, a billion! Brett's company knows all about advertising on paid channels…be it Amazon or the multitude of Google channels. Recently Brett has seen opportunities on YouTube that allow his clients to advertise on a fixed cost per acquisition basis (my favorite)! In this podcast shares what he finds works and what does not. No need to hire his firm…if you want to learn how to do it yourself, good news! He's created a course with Ezra Firestone. See the show notes. Episode Highlights: YouTube has always been a great content platform. How recent ad types make YouTube much easier to monetize. Youtube is used as a product search engine more than people realize. Viewers (and now shoppers) on YouTube are actively doing something, these new campaigns can target people based on that activity. Nothing sells like video if it's done right. Brett explains the pre-roll and true view options. The key tips on how ecommerce business owners can approach the daunting task of video ad producing that can be profitable. Some companies use agencies and others are hiring full time video people in house. Search behaviors are different on YouTube than on google. The integration of the platforms allows for hitting more people in order to make more money. Why Youtube is an invaluable re-marketing platform. If you give Youtube the right audiences to go after and you and you have a video that's powerful, over the time the machine will start hitting that CPA target. These platforms can successfully follow the journey of the buyer. The importance of getting all the campaigns working together and connected. Transcription: Mark: The world of search engines has changed significantly since about 10 years ago right? Google has been the king for a long time. I believe they started around 1997, 1998 and they've dominated and kind of set the tone for what we think a search engine is supposed to be. But in today's world, if you're in e-commerce or if you're in online business in any way you have to think about different avenues for search. For example, Amazon is the number one search engine for products at this point. But the number two search engine in the world is also owned by Google and that's YouTube. For a lot of us especially those who have been in the online world for a long time we sometimes just think narrowly about Google because that's what we've always done. But there's a lot of other opportunities where people are actually searching and have that direct intent and that's going to be YouTube as one of these things that we need to look at. And Joe I guess you talked to somebody who's really been focusing on YouTube as an advertising channel to be able to acquire customers for a business and he gave you some insights into how to use this channel more effectively. Joe: Yeah I spoke to Brett Curry from OMG Commerce. I saw him do a presentation specifically on monetizing through YouTube. I guess the best way to explain this is once upon a time on radio I had a campaign, a niche model called Per Inquiry. And we would pay the radio station per inquiry that converted to an actual customer. It's cost per acquisition that we call it now. YouTube has that opportunity now. So Brett really honed in on advertising physical product companies and doing it cost per acquisition … I'm stumbling like crazy here folks sorry, cost per acquisition on YouTube. It's not something we think of out of the gate when we think of YouTube because we're just watching the latest sports, concert, whatever it might be but people are starting to really use YouTube for searching for products and then clicking that link and converting. There are video opportunities where you only pay if someone watches the entire 30 seconds. That's something else we talked about but the one that excites me the most is the cost per acquisition model when he gets into that detail. Mark: Now I think video is something that all of us need to start opening our eyes to. I think there's just tons of opportunity when it comes to video. And you know fortunately, I think it's a little bit intimidating for most of us. And I say fortunately because if you can get over that intimidation if you can get over some of the worry about "man this is actually pretty expensive to produce" there is a world of opportunity out there if you can start getting it. So I'm excited to listen to this because I've really only just toyed a little bit with YouTube advertising. I haven't actually gotten in and tried to understand it fully so this would be a good primer. Joe: Yeah it's great. And don't fear the production costs folks because some of the best converting videos according to Brett are the ones that are actually customer produced. So consider that in terms of presenting to on YouTube. That's it, I'm done talking. Let's go see what Brett has to say. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley with Quiet Light Brokerage and today I have Brett Curry from OMG Commerce with me on the line. How are you Brett? Brett: I am doing fantastic Joe thanks for having me on the show. I'm excited to be here. Joe: You're also a podcaster too right? You've got a podcast what is the- Brett: Yeah. I love podcasting and usually I'm the one firing off the questions and listening. Honestly, I think listening is the harder job of the two here. So I'm looking for just to talking up a storm here talking about YouTube. Joe: Awesome. Well, I want to talk about a whole bunch of things because I think we met at the … for the folks that don't know we met at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind Conference in Denver. It's part of … I'm going to get that chain of events here wrong probably, it's part of the Smart Marketer Group, right? You guys … how long have you been part of that group with Ezra? Brett: Yeah. So I met Ezra Firestone at a Traffic and Conversion Summit event like six years ago. It was in San Francisco. It's a long time ago. I met Ezra there. He was just launching his Mastermind Group called Blue Ribbon and I thought to myself this is a dude that I need to know. And so we kind of striked up a conversation, I joined the mastermind group, the rest is history. So I think that was I think years ago believe it or not. Joe: And I've been going to mastermind Groups and we talk about them here on the podcast whether it's Rhodium Weekend or eCommerceFuel things of that nature. Blue Ribbon right up there for those listening if you can … if your business is big enough and you've got the revenue reach out. Find Ezra somehow through Smart Marketer probably right? Brett: Yes smartmarketer.com you got to consider it. I'm a huge eCommerceFuel fan as well. Andrew Youderian is a friend of mine. I think they do a killer job but yeah those two are right up there man. If you're serious about e-commerce and growing check out both of those and you're welcome Ezra and Andrew for the club. Joe: And for those listening if you're not in a Mastermind group or you're a buyer and you think how am I going to learn all this? It's through these mastermind groups. They didn't exist for me. I sold in 2010 as Ezra was saying I spoke to him on an earlier podcast. They really didn't exist when I started and now they're available for so many people to get so much more success I think than I had at the time. But listen I want to talk about OMG Commerce. I want to talk about you. You did a presentation at Blue Ribbon Mastermind on monetizing through YouTube and then kind of blew me away with the specifics of that and then all the other things that you do around that at your company. We want to talk about that. Can you give us … the people listening some background on yourself, on your company and how you started, what you do and then I want to jump into that. Brett: Yeah, absolutely. So right out of college in 2002 dating myself a little bit, I launched an agency; a small agency helping local businesses with TV, radio, and print; so kind of traditional old school media. I became a marketing junkie in college and I was introduced to Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham and some of those kind of marketing gurus. I fell in love with the psychology of marketing and I kind of fancied myself as a copywriter for a little bit. And so I launched this agency, I started doing SEO in 2004 and somewhat just clicked. No pun intended it just fit my personality. I liked it and so I kind of became and SEO nerd. But still thinking about copy and the conversion rate and things like that. And then moved into AdWords and then really things took off in 2012 when I got hooked on Google AdWords and kind of … really we started our agency OMG, my business partner Chris Brewer and I we started the agency in 2010. But 2012 we kind of got hooked on Google Shopping. I wrote The Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping after months and months of testing and perfecting things. Shopify published that and then that kind of helped ignite the agency. And so since then, I've been speaking at events like Traffic and Conversion Summit and Ezra's events in social media marketing world and internet retail and things like that. And so really the agency is built on driving traffic to e-commerce stores and primarily using Google Ads; so Google Search, the text ads, Google Shopping, Display Network, and more recently YouTube. I've always been a fan of You Tube. Recent ad types make it much easier to monetize and much easier to track and create measurable results. So I'm doing a lot with YouTube. And then kind of the other side of the business is Amazon. Helping companies with their Amazon ads as well and so … but I spend most of my time in the Google Ads ecosystem. Joe: Well I tell this story and I'm sorry for the podcasters that have to … listeners that hear me repeat this but you know I spent a lot of money on Google Ads and I didn't have any experience. I didn't have any training. And I think there are too many people out there doing that. They were like me. The problem is that I've discovered is that you try someone who claims to be an expert and in fact, they're not. And they take your budget and they blow it up and you cost per acquisition goes up and your profit goes down and you know this is six months before you want to sell and all of a sudden the value of your business goes down as well. When you get up and presented … I knew first and foremost because you are at Blue Ribbon you are going to be top notch. But then I dug deeper. I sat by Chris, we talked for a while and you talked specifically about YouTube and I know that you can't do that alone and that you've got to package everything else in there. But some of the things that you talked about were … and I'm going to let you dig into it and tell us about it, some specific fix targeted cost per acquisition and only paying if somebody views the full 30 seconds and a whole bunch of things that I don't think is out there for the average person that's doing all of the marketing channels themselves to figure out. So tell us about that a little bit. Brett: Yeah absolutely and I think I'll just … I'll set the stage really quickly if that's cool just talking about YouTube in general. And you know I've been a fan of YouTube forever. It's always been a great content platform. Everybody is on YouTube. A billion monthly users, average session duration is like 40 minutes which is longer though on Facebook. And the cool thing about YouTube is it's full of a lot of learn, do, and buy moments. So if I'm on YouTube I'm actively doing something. I'm looking for how to fix my lawnmower, how to fix my washing machine although I try to avoid that at all costs and just pay people. But if I'm at pinch go to Google or go to YouTube to learn how to do things or researching products. That's something that a lot of people don't know is that YouTube is used as a product search engine pretty frequently where people are looking for unboxing videos and demo videos and things like that. And so … or just you know how to, my kids use YouTube all the time from everything to how to play the piano to … my 16 year old son now is looking at how to pick up chicks which will it make you proud or worried I'm not sure. But yeah you can learn anything on YouTube right? So when someone's on YouTube they're actively engaged in what they're doing and so the beauty of that is you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube. But then like you alluded to now there's these ad formats that just really make it powerful. And so it's kind of combination now of better targeting than ever before so we can make sure we're reaching the right person better than we ever have before on YouTube. Everybody is there but how do we get to the ideal person for a particular e-commerce business. And then how do we have like a bidding and ad format that people want to click on and want to take action on and we're paying a rate that makes sense. And so that's kind of the backdrop. But yeah, so you talked about only paying if someone engages. That's called YouTube TrueView and so for those that don't know that's the pre roll or before ad. So if you go to YouTube to watch a clip from The Office or something and then there's an ad that pops up before that or the place before that you've got five seconds until that magical Skip Ad button pops up. And so the way that works is if a user skips the ad before the 30 second mark or before the end of the ad whichever comes first then the advertiser doesn't pay. So you know I could watch 28.9 seconds of an ad, click skip and the advertiser doesn't pay a penny for that. And so … or someone has to click through to the sites. If they're watching and they think ooh this is cool I'm going to click on the ad and go to the site and then the advertiser is charged for that as well but really an awesome concept. You know I used to in the previous agency days, I did quite a bit of TV and it was my favorite medium pre … before I got really deep in online marketing just because the power of video right? Nothing sells like video if it's done right and so … but if you're running a TV spot you pay for the spot regardless of if people walk out of the room or change the channel or whatever. With TrueView you're only paying if someone watches or engages so it's pretty powerful. Joe: Well let's talk about … for the people that are listening and that have a physical product and let's say they're just doing Google AdWords and they wanted to reach out to you how did that … how does it start, how … to me the idea of producing video if that's something you've never done is kind of daunting. How do you try to approach that? Brett: Yeah it really is and so this is what separates YouTube from say Google Shopping or Google Search ads which are just the text ads. You know a text ad that you can create in about three minutes. Or if you did research it takes a little bit longer than that but it's really easy. Google Shopping, the ads are pretty easy. There's just data feed involved, there's product feed involved which can be a little bit tricky. But a video, man that's tougher. You got to hire a video crew potentially. You got to hire an actor or you've got to be comfortable on camera, whatever. Ultimately though you really can create a video even using an iPhone if you wanted to but my advice on the video itself is be straightforward first. So I think … because we've all grown up seeing ads we have all kinds of ideas of what works and what doesn't work. So we know the funny Super Bowl commercials that we like and so we think we need to recreate something along those lines right? So I need to come up with something like the what's up guys from Budweiser. I'm a believer in direct response. So that's the type of ad we suggest that you run because most physical product companies if you're not huge a pure branding play is going to be tough so you want something that's direct response. And so I prefer a kind of straightforward approach. But a couple of things you can think about is one, you do need to hook someone immediately. So that Skip Ad button comes up in the first five seconds so hook them immediately. So what do you got to say, what question are you going to ask, are you going to be like running up to the camera, are you going to be doing something interesting to make someone say okay I was going to skip because I don't like ads but there's something about this that I need to watch. So hooking them in the first five seconds is key. I believe you got to lead with the strongest benefit. So what is the benefit that your product provides? Is it time savings or is it status or what is that major benefit and then dramatize that. Bring that to life even if it's just you talking and showing the product. So that's important. You also got to incorporate some social proof. So do you have a testimonial, do you have an endorsement, do you have something … are you endorsed by somebody that is trusted by your marketplace; some kind of social proof. And I think and kind of part of this you want to show don't tell you know. A talking head video can work but you want to show as much as you can. That is few of the things to consider to [inaudible 00:15:24.2] have to get in to but things like [inaudible 00:15:27.5] sort of moving the risk. What are the risks that someone has in their head before they buy? So if you're selling apparel or footwear or something what if it doesn't fit? Then what do I to overcoming some of those objections in the video is important. And then a really strong call to action, so like hey what do you … what do I want you as the viewer to do next? If you leave that … oh but this is just crazy to me, you know most people think "well it's a compelling ad people will naturally click". Not necessarily, you kind of have to ask them to. Like go here, get this free shipping code, or check out this, or watch this further demo, or join our email list to get a discount; something, some kind of call to action and then push people to do that. And the nice thing is there are some new ad formats that really make those CTA's or calls to action pop. But that's just kind of few of the things that make for a good video. But I admit making a good video is much harder than other ad formats, it just is. Joe: Through your agency do you guys have a referral program … people that you say okay these guys have done a good job and you refer people to agencies or do you find that the entrepreneur is creative and ingenious and can create a video on their own and make it work? Brett: Well, yeah it's interesting. So we're seeing now a handful of our clients are hiring full time video people because of their product videos. So video can be useful on a lot of ways right and different types of videos. So maybe I just have a pure product demo video and I put that on my product detail pages and then I'm cranking out little short clips for my Facebook advertising and then I'm launching maybe YouTube content that I'll try to get to rank organically and then I'm running YouTube ads and I've got someone creating that. So surprisingly this is something that I don't think existed with the size of companies we're working with now. You know kind of two million to 10 million a year and really up to pretty 20 million whatsoever, a lot of our clients are in that range. Those companies now have full time video people. Joe: Okay. Brett: There are a few agencies I could name but we don't do any of the creative work ourselves but I can make recommendations. Joe: So let's go to that assumption then that the client has video … has access to it or produced their own, why YouTube though? Why … like when I go and I search … like I did a search today on how to export a profit and loss statement from Xero because a client said it can't be done and I'd seen it done. I get them all the time. Oh yeah? Well let me send a video. So I did that and I sent him, I skipped the Quiet Light Brokerage banner ad because we don't need to click on it. Brett: Yeah. Joe: But it never really occurred to me to buy through YouTube. So what … people know that when you do sponsored Ads inside of Amazon or you spend money on Google Ad Words or Facebook that there's going to be a certain volume you can get to in return on investment. Is it worth it to advertise on YouTube? I know it has a billion viewers but how many people are really thinking products? And is it worth it; a bang for the buck? Should people be paying attention to advertising on YouTube? Brett: Yeah, the quick answer is this; absolutely. And this is one of those answers that even just probably two years ago my answer would have been a little bit different. It kind of would have been a maybe. Like I said YouTube has always been a powerful platform. If you're a good content creator and you created good content and got organic traffic and then YouTube has always been a good source for running a business. But from an ad platform, I believe it's just become viable for a lot of businesses. I would say most e-commerce businesses should consider it and that's a relatively new development. So aside from everybody being on there and aside from people being actively engaged where like you're looking at how to pull a report from … it was Xero? Joe: Xero. Brett: So how to pull a report, if there'd been an ad related to something like that maybe it would have captured your interest or maybe not. But you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube plus much more. So, of course, YouTube is owned by Google and so now you can target people based on their behavior that Google sees even off YouTube. So one of the options you have is keyword targeting. So if maybe I've got a new Xero alternative so better than Quick Books better than Xero whatever I'm going to … I want to woo people over to my new accounting software; which sounds like just the worst job in [inaudible 00:20:04.7] accounting software. But anyway we'll [crosstalk]. Exactly, I think I just fell asleep as I was mentioning it. But so then I could use keyword targeting and I could target people looking for Xero and Quick Books and Quick Books Online and Quick Books online tutorial. And maybe I'd even target things like why is Quick Books doing this; like some pain points around Quick Books like Quick Books keeps crashing things like that. So those are some of things people type into YouTube kind of just to find a fix. Well then if I've got the alternative to Xero and Quick Books then I run my pre-roll ad for somebody watching a video on how to fix a pain point inside of Quick Books. So there's this keyword targeting that's based on content on YouTube which is really powerful. But then going to what I alluded to a minute ago you can also target people based on what they're searching for on Google. So I think it'd probably be a toss-up like who has more information about you; Google or Facebook? I don't know really. They both know everything about us. And so I don't know about you, my search behavior on Google is different than it is on YouTube. Often if I'm going to YouTube I'm just watching music videos and stuff like that like sort of as in background even. But I search on Google for all kinds of stuff. So then you can target people on YouTube based on what they're searching for on Google. So if I sell running shoes I can look at a whole host of search terms that someone maybe typing on in on Google and I can build an audience around that and then target those users the next time they're on YouTube. Joe: So it sounds like if someone is doing any paid advertising on Google whether it's AdWords or Google Shopping or whatever it might be that they need to think of YouTube as just what it is which is an extension of Google. They're owned by Google. It is Google. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And all those same tools and resources are there that you just got to think visually. So it's really the last couple of years you started to see your advertising work better and get … Google's getting better at it to allow you to do a better job. Can you give me an example without naming any client names on in terms of what it's done for them so that somebody doesn't go "oh, wow, okay"? Brett: Sure. Joe: And what other channels within Google they're also spending money on? Brett: Yeah absolutely and so I'll kind of mention this first, I think YouTube is for a long time have been good at creating brand lift. So even kind of before some of the new targeting options and before some of the new ad options it was good at getting people to be aware of a product. So we'll use Boom by Cindy Joseph because Ezra wouldn't mind if I talk about it and we run all of the Google ads for Boom. But if we ran YouTube ads introducing people to Boom … let's just say we had no call to action I think at the end which we wouldn't do that but let's just say we did, that would likely cause a brand lift. More people would start searching for Boom on Google. After watching the video they'll be intrigued and say oh what is this let me check out a little bit more. And so that's always been kind of the platform or always been a benefit of the platform. But then kind of beyond that the next thing I would recommend someone to do is look at using YouTube for remarketing. So for people that visit your site whether they go to product detail page only or whether they add to cart and abandon, let's remarket to them. So let's use YouTube as a remarketing platform. And so that's what I've been doing for a while as well, taking our remarketing list like you alluded to all of this is built in the Google ads platform and it's now rebranded as Google Ads, not Google AdWords. So it's all in that platform so we can upload our remarketing list, we can start segmenting that and running YouTube ads to those people. So we typically segment break out site visitors, break out PPC viewers, break out cart abandoners, and kind of have different ads that we run from them. But then kind of beyond that we're looking at a new format called TrueView for action. And you kind of mentioned this before too where you're … this is where you're bidding on a CPA basis. So basically what we're doing is we're telling YouTube hey I'm willing to pay X, I'm willing to pay 100 bucks or 80 bucks or 50 bucks or whatever for a conversion and over time YouTube gets really good at dialing that in. So if you give YouTube the right audiences to go after and you have a video that's powerful over time the machine will start hitting that CPA target provided your site converts as well. Joe: Google TrueView? Brett: So as- what's that? Joe: Did you call it Google TrueView? Brett: It's TrueView for action. So it's a subset of TrueView. So you could just run standard TrueView which is the ad format I talked about before where someone has to watch 30 seconds or the whole video or you don't pay. So that's kind of standard TrueView. With standard TrueView, you're paying a cost per view. So you're telling Google I'm willing to pay five cents, two cents, 20 cents per- Joe: Yeah, risk … there's risk there but it sounds like the TrueView for action is look you're not going to pay unless it converts which is- Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: But is there volume there? Brett: There is immense volume and that's one of those things where we've seen people be able to scale pretty quickly. So with Boom by Cindy Joseph, we went from not even really a channel to a pretty large channel quickly. And we were able to start kind of dialing in and hitting their CPA target within a couple of weeks. And then it will sustain that now for several months. Joe: What happens in the first two weeks when you're … if you're doing TrueView for action aren't you always hitting that CPA target? Brett: No. So you're not. And you give Google the CPA you want to hit and you set a daily budget. Joe: Okay. Brett: But the machine is experimenting in the beginning. And this is something where this is a little bit different than let's say Facebook ads as an example I know … and I'm not a Facebook ads guy. I don't run … I don't run our Facebook even but I know there is kind of this thought that with Facebook ads you build a bunch of an ad sets and you let them … you know each one spends 30 bucks, if it doesn't convert kill it, whatever. Really search pruning quickly. That doesn't work on YouTube, not with TrueView for action. You need to give the machine time to learn. So you're maybe going to be letting it run for seven or 10 days. Obviously, you could pause it if nothing's happening. But usually that CPA, it's going to be above the CPA initially and then it's going to start getting closer and closer to it. So we found again with the right video, the right targeting you can usually hit your CPA target if you let the machine kind of dial in. Joe: Okay, and you guys don't do any of the Facebook stuff. You're focused on most of the Google platforms and then you do the Amazon platform as well. Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: And is it because that you integrate the Google Shopping, YouTube ads, Google AdWords, PPC whatever they've rebranded it you integrate them all together. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Do you think they help each other? Is it Google has gotten to the point where is it intelligent enough to pull resources from one to the other to help improve cost per conversion? Brett: Yeah absolutely and then one of the things that Google just really stepped their game up in the last couple years in the last six months even is audience targeting. So being able to apply some of those audiences even to your search campaigns and a few of the audiences to your shopping campaigns. But it is all connected because if you think about it if I'm in product research mode, if I'm looking at buying a new … let's say I'm buying a new [inaudible 0027:37.5] a couple of this things for a house and then I'm researching on Google then maybe after I find a few things I'm going to YouTube to watch a video or some unboxing videos or installation videos now I'm going back to Google. And so what you can do if you've got all of the campaigns setup and part of a … we call it a full funnel approach or a team of campaigns, we're not viewing search and shopping in YouTube as this completely separate entities but how do they work together because they do. So if someone finds us on search or shopping when they don't convert then let's use YouTube as the remarketing vehicle. If someone discovers us on YouTube and they watch a video and they become engaged with us but they don't purchase well then let's add them to a remarketing list and target them with search and shopping ads. Because maybe someone learns about your brand on YouTube they don't buy, their next activity is going to be I'm going to go to Google and search. I'm going to go search for this company now or find out more and so we can target them that way. So that's another piece we look at as we create a list of people that have viewed a video as an ad. And then we layer that into our search and shopping campaigns. And we've seen this … let's just go back to the Boom by Cindy Joseph example; we even created some campaigns where we only target people that have seen a video ad. And a lot of those people then go back to Google and they can't really remember the brand name but they remember seeing the video or whatever like something's caught their attention so they're just they're typing in a bunch of random things. Like make up for older women or you know things that would've been mentioned in the ad. And then we're able to target them because we built a list of people that viewed the video as an ad but actually converted them to research a shopping campaign. So if we just think about it, if we kind of step back and think about our own journey like what's my journey as a buyer? I really just click on one ad and buy. I don't just see one ad for a brand new product I've never heard of and purchase immediately. That doesn't happen. I'm usually going to search for something, be exposed to it, click around, visit, and then see another ad and then convert. So we would … we like to get all the campaigns kind of working together and connected. Joe: So let's say that someone is managing their advertising campaign themselves and business is getting big enough to they want to elevate themselves to more of the captain of the ship instead of a navigator if you want instead of just focusing on one part like the marketing are there resources out there to learn everything you need to learn about for the Google ads platform within Google and outside of it or is it simply your 20 years of expertise that … and what, staff of 17 that allow you to be better than any Tom, Dick, or Harry that's going to try to do it for their own business? Brett: Yes. So I mean there is a learning curve and I think the learning curve is a little steeper with Google ads than it is other platforms potentially. It's one of those things where learning the basics is not that complicated but then seeing how everything interacts and how one change leads to other implications is a little trickier. So there's a little bit of a learning curve but there are some good resources. So on the Google Shopping side, I wrote the Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping a few years ago. Shopify published that. It's totally free. Joe: Do you have to update that on a regular basis? Is it changing? Brett: Yeah, I just updated it a year ago. I needed another round of updates. The core of it is still good but it needs to be updated. Joe: Okay. Brett: I'm working on a course with Ezra Firestone. We launched the beta version on all of Google Ads. So it kind of starts with- Joe: Oh, excellent. Brett: -that foundation of Google ads. Joe: That's what I was looking for and I didn't know that. For everybody listening, I didn't know that by the way. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Because look some people are going to be hesitant to work with an agency. Brett: Sure. Joe: And historically I've been anti-agency although I owned one. I owned a media buying agency specifically for radio back in the day. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And my experience is as an agency owner is that you're going to work really really hard because you want to client to keep spending money because you get a percentage of that money that he spent. So you want them to be successful but as an e-commerce owner, my experience was … God, they blew it, my gosh my cost per acquisition went way up. Everything is destroyed. They're not paying any attention to anything that I said but what you did and what you presented was great and different. So that's … I wasn't going there but thank you for going there. So you've created a course on the Google ads platform with Ezra which will be done when? Brett: So probably by the time this … I don't know when is this is going to live but it will … it's launched in September of 2018 is when it will launch officially. Joe: Okay. Brett: So it should be available here pretty quick. Joe: So people can find that probably on smartmarketer.com right? Brett: Smartmarketer.com Joe: And OMG Commerce I would assume as well? Brett: Yeah well, have some links to it as well. Joe: Okay so let's assume that a certain group of people are going to be I'm never working with an agency and they'll Google and they find that there and they'll get that expertise and training which is exactly what I want. I want people to get the best advice and expertise. Brett: Yeah. And one thing I would maybe add to that is I would recommend that everybody get educated at least to a certain degree. Even if you plan on outsourcing it or hiring internally for it, learn the basics of the platform. Learn how everything kind of ties together. Because then you'll be able to analyze does this agency I'm going to be getting they know what they're talking about, is this person that I'm hiring do they know what they're talking about? So I think as a business owner you got to educate yourself at least on the basics and kind of see how the full funnel works and things like that. But yeah you don't have to hire an agency. You can hire someone in-house and train them up and that could be great for some businesses. Joe: Unless they quit. Brett: Exactly, yeah. That's true, yeah. Good to be diversified a little bit. Joe: I agree. Well listen, Brett I appreciate it, I appreciate your time coming on here just sort of unraveling the mystery of YouTube because again to me I've never thought about buying something there. Now that we've talked and I saw your presentation it's every time I'm seeing an ad and I've actually watched a few which is interesting but I haven't clicked through to buy yet. And I think that that's going to change. And I think that people will get ahead of it and start learning it now and being one of the early adopters of advertising on YouTube. They'll get ahead of the curve like those that focused on Facebook first. Brett: Exactly and I think it's … I think Facebook's going to be a viable ad platform for the foreseeable future. I think You Tube is going to be as well but I would liken where YouTube is now to where Facebook was a few years ago where it's pretty affordable to be on YouTube. Those costs will go up over time as more people hop on to the platform but it's a great place to be. And yeah we've seen from skin care to apparel to automotive to tech; all those verticals in e-commerce are getting good results on YouTube so it's worth exploring for sure. Joe: Fantastic, so YouTube is today where Facebook was a few years ago. Brett: I think so, yeah. Joe: That's a good way to end it. But for anybody that does want to talk to you, I think they can find you at OMGcommerce.com is that right? Brett: Yup OMGcommerce.com I'm happy to chat, happy to do an audit potentially of existing efforts and I'll let you know how we could potentially help. So yeah OMGcommerce.com. Joe: Well put that down in the show notes and if this is out before the course is done we'll go back and we'll put it in the course after the fact so that those that just want to learn on their own and maybe bring it in-house can learn from that as well. Brett: Yeah awesome. Joe: Thanks for your time Brett I appreciate it. Brett: Okay thanks Joe I really appreciate it. [inaudible 00:35:07.7] All right see you. Links: OMGCommerce Website ecommerce Evolution Podcast – Get to know Brett How to Use YouTube to Scale Ecommerce Ads – Online eCourse
Hey everyone! If you went to the EcommerceFuel Live event in January and got shoved a microphone in the face by me, then this is the episode you've been waiting for :) You might have forgotten what transpired during the event (especially if you got drunk during the party) but this episode, with all the snippets I recorded both sober and drunk, will surely remind you what an awesome event ECF Live is. If you didn't go, I am pretty sure you're going to want to go next time. This episode is long overdue considering how long it's been since January but this is the first time in EcomCrew history that we're doing something this different. And in light of new and different things, we're doing something that's another first: we will be raffling off an EcomCrew mug for those who comment below. That's right, just comment anything about the episode down below (for example, let me know if you think Andrew Youderian's prank is mean) and you get a chance to win an EcomCrew mug, shipped to you for free, anywhere in the world. Special thanks to Andrew for making ECF Live possible. Make sure to check out this awesome community here. Thanks also to those who put up with me during these interviews, and to the cop who was Andrew's accomplice. I hope you read this and know you're awesome :D Resources mentioned: E114: Chasing Retail Dreams with Bill D'Alessandro E95: Growing and Selling Drop Shipping Businesses with Andrew Youderian E99: An 18-year Ecommerce Journey with Kevin Stecko E91: Ecommerce Growth and Profitability With Dana Jaunzemis EcommerceFuel E94: On the Road with David Couillard: How to Run an Ecommerce Business while Traveling with Family Thanks as always for listening, let me know if you like this episode, and until the next one, happy selling!
"Sometimes you have to do something that makes you uncomfortable to further your career and your life and I really believe that." - Mike Jackness on speaking at the Global Sources Summit This episode is a play-by-play report of my entire trip to Asia, covering the Global Sources Summit, the Canton Fair, meeting with our Philippines team -- basically everything my team and I did while we were in Asia from early October through early November. If you're like me who doesn't like following someone's life abroad on an hour-by-hour basis, then this episode probably isn't for you. But if you are in ecommerce and have never been to these events in Asia before (or you're just curious about what we do there), this will give you a pretty good overview of what it's like to be on the road, traveling back and forth between cities to attend fairs and meet people, things you might need to do if you are serious in growing your importing business. These are the highlights of my nearly month-long trip: getting on a ridiculously luxurious first class flight to Hong Kong for about $50 hiking and exploring Hong Kong during my first few days there the ill-timed typhoon my presentation at the Global Sources Summit where I was rated as the number 1 speaker (this just goes to show that you can accomplish anything once you set your mind to it) EcommerceFuel meetups, masterminds, and new plans to take EcomCrew to the next level visiting my Philippines team going to the Canton Fair the amazing people I met from the ecommerce community My wife Michelle, our Director of Ecommerce Jacqueline, and I crammed so many activities during our time in Asia that when we arrived back in San Diego we were all absolutely drained. These trips are very productive and rewarding, but be warned -- it can also be terribly exhausting. Nevertheless, trips like this are very valuable for entrepreneurs looking for serious growth. The trick is laying out what you want to accomplish while you're there, which for me, are three things: meeting as many like-minded people/entrepreneurs as possible, touring as many factories as possible, and building as many relationships as you can with the people you already work with. Resources mentioned: AsiaInspection Stamped.io Thanks for listening to this episode! If you can, please leave an honest feedback on iTunes and reach out to us at support@ecomcrew.com. Until next episode, happy selling!
"Part of the hard part of selling a business is not just all the mechanics behind the scene, but finding a good buyer who is honest, and who has money, and who isn't pulling your chain and can actually close the deal. And is reasonable. Those are not inconsequential things to find in a buyer." -Andrew Youderian, eCommerceFuel founder I have an exciting episode today as I am interviewing one of the most awesome people I know, not just in ecommerce but in life in general. Andrew Youderian is the founder of eCommerceFuel, a vetted community of high 6 and 7 figure ecommerce store owners who help each other grow their ecommerce businesses. The community hosts the annual eCommerceFuel Live event where members get to meet each other in person and share tips and actionable advice on how to successfully run their businesses. It's one of the events I absolutely love attending and it seems I'm not the only one who shares this sentiment -- event tickets sold out hours after the event was publicly announced. Andrew launched and sold numerous successful drop shipping ecommerce stores over the years. In this episode we talk about two stores he sold -- TrollingMotors.net and Right Channel Radios -- and a behind-the-scenes conversation about possibly the most interesting ecommerce store sale he made. Other things we talked about: What eCommerceFuel is and how it started A look back on Andrew's successful drop shipping businesses What triggered him to sell his businesses His reverse auction sale of TrollingMotors.net Finding a good buyer Insights about the sale of Right Channel Radios and whether he regretted it or not Is it still possible to succeed in drop shipping today? SEO strategy tips We hope you enjoy this episode. If you own a store with a minimum of $250K in annual revenue and want access to a treasure trove of information to help grow your business, apply for eCommerceFuel membership here! Resources mentioned today: eCommerceFuel eCommerceFuel Live Stamped.io AsiaInspection How to Sell a Business: The Open-Book Sale of My $600K Store (With Complete Financials) You'll notice we have a different podcast format -- it's just one of the changes we are adopting moving forward. We've committed to release two episodes per week, plus we will be bring you a weekly news roundup so you don't miss anything important in ecommerce land. Thanks for listening to Episode 95! Please leave us an honest review on iTunes; it will really help us out. You can also reach out to us at support@ecomcrew.com for any comments or suggestions. Happy selling!
We get a lot of questions about what services and applications we use in our day to day business. Today I'm going to give our listeners a list of tools and services that really help us stay on top of our business. To begin with, we have four brands under the EcomCrew umbrella. The four brands are Colorit.com, Icewraps.com, Wild Baby, and Tactical.com. We use all these tools to run every brand and keep track of our customers' needs. Here is a list of those tools: Shopify -- Every brand we have is built on Shopify. It is the best platform we have found for running an ecommerce business. I will explain how we came to that conclusion during the episode. Stamped.io -- We use Stamped.io to get good quality reviews. Of course, they are a sponsor of the podcast, but we use their service because it is the best value. Zipify Pages -- If we are running a promotion or sale, Zipify is the tool we use to build the landing page. Shoelace -- This app allows us to create retargeting ads fast and easy! Rewind -- A tool we use to make sure we have system backups. Skubana -- This app gathers up our orders and distributes them to the right fulfillment station. It is a big time saver. I'm a little frustrated with Skubana, to be honest, but I will get into that during the episode. Klaviyo -- If you are a long time listener, you know I use Klaviyo a lot. It is a time-saving tool that makes email marketing a lot easier. ClickFunnels -- ClickFunnels is a service that helps keep track of our special promotion and contest email campaigns. AdEspresso -- An essential tool for creating great Facebook ads. Quickbooks Online -- The service we use to keep our books. Gleam.io and Up-Viral -- We use both for contest promotions. Phone.com -- This app redirects customer service calls to personal or designated phone numbers, so we can settle customer issues more efficiently. Sellics -- An Amazon based tool that is similar to Skubana. Splitly -- A split testing app. Jungle Scout -- A service we use to research new products and current market trends. RestockPro -- A tool that helps track our inventory and helps us plan reorders with plenty of time to spare! Basecamp -- The newest addition to our toolbox. Basecamp is a project management tool that allows us to keep in touch with all team members, no matter where they are based. So there you have it, our list of tools and services that help us keep the EcomCrew machine humming. I recently did some traveling on the east coast and I attended an EcommerceFuel meetup and met some great people. So hello, to all of you I met up with earlier! We have also released our first course on EcomCrew.com! The course is called Build A $1,000,000 Private Label Business Importing Kickass Products From China, if you are interested in the importing business, check out the link below. As a reminder, I will be speaking at Global Sources (discount code: ec350) during October 17-19 and I will be attending and speaking at EcomerceFuel Live during January 11-13. Please keep in mind that with all this travel the live Facebook shows will be postponed, but there will still be pre-recorded episodes. In closing, we also have a second sponsor for this episode, AsiaInspection. Dave and I both use AsiaInspection for our overseas shipments. They provide a very important service for anyone needing to double check the quality of their shipments. Resources Mentioned Today: AdEspresso AsiaInspection Basecamp ClickFunnels Colorit.com EcomCrew Course EcomCrew Facebook Page EcommerceFuel EcommerceFuel Live Gleam.io Global Sources Icewraps.com Jungle Scout Klaviyo Phone.com Quickbooks Online RestockPro Rewind Sellics Shoelace Shopify Skubana Splitly Stamped.io Tactical.com UpViral Wild Baby Zipify If you have any questions or anything you'd like us to discuss on the podcast please go to ecomcrew.com and fill out the contact form. Also, we would really appreciate if you would leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks for listening!
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