Podcasts about mfas

Paula Ortiz es abogada con más de dos décadas de experiencia en regulación digital, con foco en publicidad y protección de datos. Durante ocho años trabajó en la Agencia Española de Protección de Datos (AEPD), representando a España en foros internacionales, incluyendo el CEPD/EDPB. Después inauguró y trabajó durante una década el departamento legal e institucional de IAB Spain, desde donde publicó más de 20 guías cubriendo aspectos legales de la publicidad digital. Además de asesorar en estos temas, Paula es co-fundadora y directora de The Legal School, desde donde ayuda a los profesionales del derecho a adaptarse a la era digital y la Inteligencia Artificial. También imparte clases en IE University,  Deusto o ISDI - además de escribir habitualmente sobre publicidad digital.  Referencias: Paula Ortiz en LinkedIn The Legal School “Consiente o paga” en la UE: una línea temporal (diagrama ilustrativo: 2016-2025) Multa a Meta (200m euros) por incumplir la Directiva de Mercados Digitales (DMA) con el modelo “Consiente o paga” (Comisión Europea) Opinión del CEPD/EDPB sobre consentimiento o pago (grandes plataformas)  ICO: Consent or Pay guidelines  Stephen Almond: The UK ICO's Vision on a Privacy-Preserving AdTech Future (Not Just ADZ, febrero de 2025 - inglés) Alessandro De Zanche: “Consent or Pay”: a gift to MFAs and old ad tech agendas Sentencia Bundeskartellamt (TJUE)  La Croqueta: cómo devolver la cordura al solapamiento entre ePrivacy y RGPD antes de que los medios espanten a la poca audiencia que aún les queda (Sergio Maldonado, Medium) Cómo la Directiva de contenidos digitales terminará con el RGPD (Sergio Maldonado, Medium - Inglés) Robert Bateman: Consent or Pay (Masters of Privacy) Romain Robert: Pay or OK in AdTech (Masters of Privacy)

There's been a lot of talk in the past few months about a range of important issues: the rule of law, checks and balances, free speech on campuses, whether people's jobs will continue to exist.You know what I haven't heard people talk about much? Oranges. I've heard precious little consideration of what you might whisper to an orange before you peel it.Admittedly, I wasn't thinking about that either when the basis of this episode got started. Last spring, I heard about a performance at the I Fell building in downtown Bloomington. It was called How to Preserve an Orange, and it was this ritual, participatory performance. I'd heard great things and decided to invite the artist, clay scofield, to do it again, this time at Redbud Books in Bloomington. Redbud is a community space as well as a bookstore.How to Preserve an Orange was strange and fun and it made me think about experimentation, being in tune with our senses, and play. clay and I sat down in the studio a couple weeks later to talk about the experience, about what it means to train our attention on something, why limiting possibility is important for people who want to amass power, how play can open up opportunities for transformation, and how, as a result, real, deep play can also be risky. Dangerous. Which is a little bit how I felt during How to Preserve an Orange, when clay asked us to ask our oranges to consent to being eaten.clay is a visiting assistant professor in digital art at the Eskenazi School of Art Architecture and Design in Art. They're on the board of directors of the School of Making Thinking, and they're a co-creator of the Deep Play Artist Residency. clay has MFAs in poetry AND in studio art.This episode includes excerpts from the performance of How to Preserve an Orange. If you want to try it at home, the full recording of the performance is also be available in the Inner States podcast feed. Let us know if you do! Email us at wfiuinnerstates@gmail.com.CreditsAssociate producer Dom Heyob put this episode together. Jillian Blackburn keeps our social media alive and well. Eoban Binder, LuAnn Johnson, Sam Schemenauer, Payton Whaley, and Kayte Young support the show behind the scenes. Eric Bolstridge digs us out of whatever holes we get stuck in.Our theme song is by Amy Oelsner and Justin Vollmar. We have additional music from the artists at Universal Production Music.

Sarah Lyn Rogers is a writer whose recent collection of poems, Cosmic Tantrum, delves into codependent and transactional relationships. She also edits manuscripts and helps writers get their own work across the finish line. We talk MFAs as accountability tools (and releasing them when no longer needed), living in Bhutan, Gilmore Girls and Grey Gardens.Sarah's Website: sarahlynrogers.comSarah on IG: https://www.instagram.com/sarahlynwritesSupport the podcast!Patreon.com/fkdp (you can follow for free and get updates and freebies from me!)https://www.buymeacoffee.com/bevin (safe and secure way to buy me a snack!)Venmo: @bevinbBuy my aerobics video! ⁠fatkiddanceparty.com/video4pack⁠Amazon Wishlist: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1SJCL864DDKEH?ref_=wl_shareTee shirts: https://genuinevalentine.com/collections/fat-kid-dance-partyInstagram: @fatkiddanceparty @bevinspartyWork one on one with me: https://queerfatfemme.com/one-on-one-with-bevin/You Tube Channel:https://www.youtube.com/c/SelfCarePartyBlog: queerfatfemme.comSubstack: bevinsparty.substack.comEmail list: http://eepurl.com/dyX3dbThreads, Tik Tok, bsky.app/, Twitter: @bevinspartyFacebook.com/bevinspartyLike/subscribe/review/send a link to a friend! It all helps!

In this week's episode, we continue our discuss about how seeking prestige can be dangerous for writers, specifically in the form of traditional publishing and the New York Times Bestseller list. This coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Shield of the Knight, Book #2 in the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store: DRAGONSHIELD50 The coupon code is valid through March 21, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook for spring, we've got you covered! TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00   Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 241 of The Pulp Writer Show. My name is Jonathan Moeller. Today is February 28th, 2025. Today we are continuing our discussion of how to escape the trap of prestige for writers, specifically traditional publishing and The New York Times Bestseller List. Before we get to our main topic, we will do Coupon of the Week, an update on my current writing and audiobook projects, and then Question of the Week.   This week's coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Shield of the Knight, Book Two in the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store. That coupon code is DRAGONSHIELD50. As always, I'll include the coupon code and the link to the store in the show notes. This coupon code is valid through March 21st, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook as we start to head into the spring months, we have got you covered. Now an update on my current writing projects. I'm pleased to report I am done with the rough draft of Ghost in the Assembly. I came in at 106,000 words, so it'll definitely be over a hundred thousand words when it's done. I'm about 20% of the way through the first round of edits, so I am confident in saying that if all goes well and nothing unexpected happens, I am on track to have it out in March. I am also 10,000 words into Shield of Battle, which will be the fifth of six books in the Shield War series and I'm hoping to have that out in April, if all goes well.   In audiobook news, recording for both Cloak of Dragonfire and Orc-Hoard is done. I'm just waiting for them to get through the processing on the various stores so they're available. There is also an audiobook edition of Half Elven Thief Omnibus One and Cloak Mage Omnibus Three that hopefully should be coming in March. More news with that to come.   00:01:55 Question of the Week   Now let's move on to Question of the Week. Question of the Week is intended to inspire interesting discussions of enjoyable topics. This week's question: what is your favorite subgenre of fantasy, high fantasy, epic fantasy, sword and sorcery, historical fantasy, urban fantasy, LitRPG, cultivation, or something else? No wrong answers, obviously.   Cindy says: Epic fantasy or those with a good history for that world. The Ghost Series are fantastic at this.   Thanks, Cindy.   Justin says: I enjoy all those sub-genres, if they are done well. In times past I would've said comic fantasy, but that is because Terry Pratchett at his best was just that good.   Mary says: High fantasy.   Surabhi says: I'd honestly read anything fantasy that's written well and has characters I'm attached to, given that it's not too gritty. Bonus points if there's humor! Also, I love your books so much and they're the perfect blend of fantasy, adventure, and characters. Your books were what really got me into Sword and Sorcery.   Thanks, Surabhi.     Matthew says: See, that's difficult. I love my sabers, both light and metal. I would say urban fantasy crosses the boundary the most. If it's a captivating story, it will be read.   John F says: I can't choose one- Lord of the Rings or LWW, The Inheritance Cycle, The Dresden Files, Caina, Ridmark, or Nadia. I think what draws me is great characters who grow. The setting/genre is just the device. That's why I keep coming back to your books. You create great characters.   Thanks, John F.   John K says: I think I'm partial to historical fantasy. I enjoy all genres, but when I think of my favorites, they tend to be derivations of historical settings. Think Guy Gavriel Kay or Miles Cameron. That said, I was weaned on Robert E. Howard, Fritz Lieber, Michael Moorcock, Karl Edward Wagner, Jack Vance, so a strong sword and sorcery second place.   Juana says: High fantasy. Belgariad, Tolkien, dragons, et cetera.   Jonathan says: Sword and sorcery in space! Prehistoric sword and sorcery, sword and sorcery always.   Quint: says Sword and sorcery!   Michael says: Sword and sorcery.   For myself, I think I would agree with our last couple of commenters and it would be sword and sorcery. My ideal fantasy novel has a barbarian hero wandering from corrupt city state to corrupt city state messing up the business of some evil wizards. I'm also very fond of what's called generic fantasy (if a fighter, a dwarf, an elf, and a wizard are going into a dungeon and fighting some orcs, I'm happy).   00:04:18 Main Topic of the Week: Escaping the Prestige Trap, Part 2   Now onto our main topic for the week, Escaping the Prestige Trap, Part 2, and we'll focus on traditional publishing and the New York Times Bestseller List this week. As we talked about last week, much of the idea of success, especially in the United States, is based on hitting certain milestones in a specific order. In the writing world, these measures of success have until fairly recently been getting an MFA, finding an agent, getting traditionally published, and hitting The New York Times Bestseller List. Last week we talked about the risks of an MFA and an agent. This week, we are going to talk about two more of those writing markers of prestige, getting traditionally published and having a book land on The New York Times Bestseller List. Why are they no longer as important? What should you devote your energy and focus to instead?   So let's start with looking at getting traditionally published. Most writers have dreamed of seeing their book for sale and traditional publishing for a long time has been the only route to this path. Until about 15 years ago, traditional publishing was the way that a majority of authors made their living. Now that big name authors like Hugh Howie, Andy Weir, and Colleen Hoover have had success starting as self-published authors (or in the case of authors Sarah J. Maas and Ali Hazelwood, fan fiction authors) and then are getting traditional publishing deals made for them for their self-published works. It's proof that self-publishing is no longer a sign that the author isn't good enough to be published traditionally. Previous to the rise of the Kindle, that was a common belief that if you were self-published, it was because you were not good enough to get traditionally published. That was sort of this pernicious belief that traditional publishing was a meritocracy, when in fact it tended to be based on who you knew. But that was all 15 years ago and now we are well into the age of self-publishing. Why do authors still want to be traditionally published when in my frank opinion, self-publishing is the better path? Well, I think there are three main reasons for that.   One of the main reasons is that the authors say they want to be traditionally published is to have someone else handle the marketing and the advertising. They don't realize how meager marketing budgets and staffing support are, especially for unknown authors. Many traditionally published authors are handling large portions of their own marketing and hiring publicists out of their own pocket because publishers are spending much less on marketing. The new reality is that traditional publishers aren't going to do much for you as a debut author unless you are already a public figure.   Even traditionally published authors are not exempt from having to do their own marketing now. James Patterson set up an entire company himself to handle his marketing. Though, to be fair to James Patterson, his background was in advertising before he came into publishing, so he wasn't exactly a neophyte in the field, but you see more and more traditionally published authors who you think would be successful just discontented with the system and starting to dabble in self-publishing or looking at alternative publishers like Aethon Books and different arrangements of publishing because the traditional system is just so bad for writers. The second main reason authors want to be traditionally published is that they want to avoid the financial burden of publishing. This is an outdated way of thinking. The barrier to publishing these days is not so much financial as it is knowledge. In fact, I published a book entirely using free open source software in 2017 just to prove that it could be done. It was Silent Order: Eclipse Hand, the fourth book in my science fiction series. I wrote it on Ubuntu using Libre Office and I edited it in Libre Office and I did the formatting on Ubuntu and I did the cover in the GIMP, which is a free and open source image editing program. This was all using free software and I didn't have to pay for the program. Obviously I had to pay for the computer I was using and the Internet connection, but in the modern era, having an internet connection is in many ways almost a requirement, so that's the cost you would be paying anyway.   The idea that you must spend tens of thousands of dollars in formatting, editing, cover, and marketing comes from scammy self-publishing services. Self-publishing, much like traditional publishing, has more than its fair share of scams or from people who aren't willing to take the time to learn these skills and just want to cut someone a check to solve the problem. There are many low cost and effective ways to learn these skills and resources designed specifically for authors. People like Joanna Penn have free videos online explaining how to do this, and as I've said, a lot of the software you can use to self-publish is either free or low cost, and you can get some very good programs like Atticus or Vellum or Jutoh for formatting eBooks for very low cost.   The third reason that writers want to be traditionally published is that many believe they will get paid more this way, which is, unless you are in the top 1% of traditionally published authors, very wrong. Every so often, there's a study bemoaning the fact that most publishers will only sell about $600 worth of any individual book, and that is true of a large percentage of traditionally published books. Traditional publishers typically pay a lump sum called advance, and then royalties based on sales. An average advance is about the same as two or three months of salary from an office job and so not a reflection of the amount of time it typically takes most authors to finish a book. Most books do not earn out their advance, which means the advance is likely to be the only money the author receives for the book. Even well-known traditionally published authors are not earning enough to support themselves as full-time authors. So as you can see, all three of these reasons are putting a lot of faith in traditional publishers, faith that seems increasingly unnecessary or downright misplaced. I think it is very healthy to get rid of the idea that good writing comes from traditional publishers and that the prestige of being traditionally published is the only way you'll be accepted as a writer or be able to earn a living as a full-time writer. I strongly recommend that people stop thinking that marketing is beneath you as an author or too difficult to learn. Whether you are indie or tradpub, you are producing a product that you want to sell, thus you are a businessperson. The idea that only indie authors have to sell their work is outdated. The sooner you accept this reality, the more options you will have. Self-publishing and indie publishing are admittedly more work. However, the benefits are significant. Here are five benefits of self-publishing versus traditional publishing.   The first advantage of self-publishing is you have complete creative control. You decide what the content of your book will be; you decide what the cover will be. If you don't want to make the covers yourself or you don't want to learn how to do that, you can very affordably hire someone to do it for you and they will make the cover exactly to your specifications. You also have more freedom to experiment with cross-genre books. As I've mentioned before, publishers really aren't a fan of cross genre books until they make a ton of money, like the new romantasy trend.   Traditional publishing is very trend driven and cautious. Back in the 2000s before I gave up on traditional publishing and discovered self-publishing, I would submit to agents a lot. Agents all had these guidelines for fantasy saying that they didn't want to see stories with elves and orcs and dwarves and other traditional fantasy creatures because they thought that was passe. Well, when I started self-publishing, I thought I'm going to write a traditional fantasy series with elves and orcs and dwarves and other traditional fantasy creatures just because I can and Frostborn has been my bestselling series of all time in the time I've been self-publishing, so you can see the advantages of having creative control.   The second advantage is you can control the marketing. Tradpub authors often sign a contract that they'll get their social media and website content approved by the publisher before posting. They may even be given boilerplate or pre-written things to post. In self-publishing, you have real time data to help you make decisions and adjust ads and overall strategy on the fly to maximize revenue. For example, if one of your books is selling strangely well on Google Play, it's time to adjust BookBub ads to focus on that platform instead of Amazon.   You can also easily change your cover, your blurb, and so forth after release. I've changed covers of some of my books many times trying to optimize them for increased sales and that is nearly impossible to do with traditional publishing. And in fact, Brandon Sanderson gave a recent interview where he talked about how the original cover of his Mistborn book was so unrelated to the content of the book that it almost sunk the book and hence his career.   You also have the ability to run ad campaigns as you see fit, not just an initial launch like tradpub does. For example, in February 2025, I've been heavily advertising my Demonsouled series even though I finished writing that series back in 2013, but I've been able to increase sales and derive a significant profit from those ads.   A third big advantage is that you get a far greater share of the profits. Most of the stores, if you price an ebook between $2.99 (prices are USD) and $9.99, you will get 70% of the sale price, which means if you sell an ebook for $4.99, you're probably going to get about $3.50 per sale (depending on currency fluctuations and so forth). That is vastly more than you would get from any publishing contract.   You also don't have to worry about the publisher trying to cheat you out of royalties. We talked about an agency stealing money last episode. Every platform you publish your book on, whether Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, Google Play, Smashwords and Apple will give you a monthly spreadsheet of your sales and then you can look at it for yourself, see exactly how many books you sold and exactly how much money you're going to get. I have only very rarely seen traditional publishing royalty statements that are as clear and have as much data in them as a spreadsheet from Google Play or Amazon. A fourth advantage is you don't have to worry about publishers abandoning you mid-series. In traditional publishing, there is what's called the Publishing Death Spiral where let's say an author is contracted to write a series of five books. The author writes the first book and it sells well. Then the author publishes the second book and it doesn't sell quite as well, but the publisher is annoyed enough by the decrease in sales that they drop the writer entirely and don't finish the series. This happens quite a bit in the traditional publishing world, and you don't have to worry about that in indie publishing because you can just publish as often as you want. If you're not happy with the sales of the first few books in the series, you can change the covers, try ad campaigns, and other strategies.   Finally, you can publish as often as you want and when you want. In traditional publishing, there is often a rule of thumb that an author should only publish one book a year under their name. Considering that last year I published 10 books under my name, that seems somewhat ridiculous, but that's a function of the fact that traditional publishing has only so much capacity and the pieces of the machine involved there are slow and not very responsive. Whereas with self-publishing, you have much more freedom and everything involved with it is much more responsive. There's no artificial deadlines, so you can take as long as you want to prepare it and if the book is ready, you don't have to wait a year to put it out because it would mess up the publisher's schedule.   So what to do instead of chasing traditional publishing? Learn about self-publishing, especially about scams and bad deals related to it. Publish your own works by a platform such as KDP, Barnes and Noble Press, Kobo Writing Life, Apple Books, Google Play, Smashwords, and possibly your own Payhip and/or Shopify store.   Conquer your fear of marketing and advertising. Even traditionally published authors are shouldering more of this work and paying out of their own pocket to hire someone to do it, and if you are paying your own marketing costs, you might as well self-publish and keep a greater share of the profits. The second half of our main topic, another potential risk of prestige, is getting on The New York Times Bestseller List. I should note that I suppose someone could accuse me of sour grapes here saying, oh, Jonathan Moeller, you've never been on The New York Times Bestseller List. You must just be bitter about it. That is not true. I do not want to be on The New York Times Bestseller List. What I would like to be is a number one Amazon bestseller. Admittedly though, that's unlikely, but a number one Amazon bestseller would make a lot more money than a number one New York Times Bestseller List, though because of the way it works, if you are a number one Amazon bestseller, you might be a New York Times Bestseller, but you might not. Let's get into that now.   Many writers have the dream of seeing their name on the New York Times Bestseller List. One self-help guru wrote about “manifesting” this milestone for herself by writing out the words “My book is number one on The New York Times Bestseller List” every day until it happened. Such is the mystique of this milestone that many authors crave it as a necessity. However, this list has seen challenges to its prestige in recent years. The one thing that shocks most people when they dig into the topic is that the list is not an objective list based on the raw number of books sold. The list is “editorial content” and The New York Times can exclude, include, or rank the books on the list however they choose.   What it does not capture is perennial sellers or classics. For example, the Bible and the Quran are obviously some of the bestselling books of all time, but you won't see editions of the Bible or the Quran on the New York Times Bestseller List. Textbooks and classroom materials, I guarantee there are some textbooks that are standards in their field that would be on the bestseller list every year, but they're not because The New York Times doesn't track them. Ebooks available only from a single vendor such as Kindle Unlimited books, ebook sales from not reporting vendors such as Shopify or Payhip. Reference Works including test prep guides (because I guarantee when test season comes around the ACT and SAT prep guides or the GRE prep guides sell a lot of copies) and coloring books or puzzle books.  It would be quite a blow to the authors on the list to realize that if these excluded works were included on the list, they would in all likelihood be consistently below To Kill a Mockingbird, SAT prep books, citation manuals, Bibles/other religious works, and coloring books about The Eras Tour.   Publishers, political figures, religious groups, and anyone with enough money can buy their way into the rank by purchasing their books in enormous quantities. In fact, it's widely acknowledged in the United States that this is essentially a legal form of bribery and a bit of money laundering too, where a publisher will give a truly enormous advance to a public figure or politician that they like, and that advance will essentially be a payment to that public figure in the totally legal form of an enormous book advance that isn't going to pay out. Because this is happening with such frequency, The New York Times gave into the pressure to acknowledge titles suspected of this strategy with a special mark next to it on the list. However, these books remain on the list and can still be called a New York Times Bestseller.   Since the list is not an objective marker of sales and certainly not some guarantee of quality, why focus on making it there? I think trying to get your book on The New York Times Bestseller List would be an enormous waste of time, since the list is fundamentally an artificial construction that doesn't reflect sales reality very well.   So what can you do instead? Focus on raw sales numbers and revenue, not lists. Even Amazon's bestseller category lists have a certain amount of non-quantitative factors. In the indie author community, there's a saying called Bank not Rank, which means you should focus on how much revenue your books are actually generating instead of whatever sales rank they are on whatever platform. I think that's a wiser approach to focus your efforts.   You can use lists like those from Publishers Weekly instead if you're interested in what's selling or trends in the industry, although that too can be manipulated and these use only a fairly small subset of data that favors retail booksellers, but it's still more objective in measuring than The New York Times.   I suppose in the end, you should try and focus on ebook and writing activities that'll bring you actual revenue or satisfaction rather than chasing the hollow prestige of things like traditional publishing, agents, MFAs, and The New York Times Bestseller List.   So that is it for this week. Thank you for listening to The Pulp Writer Show. I hope you found the show useful. A reminder that you can listen to all back episodes at https://thepulpwritershow.com. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review on your podcasting platform of choice. Stay safe and stay healthy and see you all next week.

In this week's behavior, we discuss how seeking prestige can be dangerous for writers, specifically in the form of MFA degrees and literary agents. This week's coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Sword of the Squire, Book #1 in the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store: SQUIRE50 The coupon code is valid through March 14, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook for spring, we've got you covered! 00:00:00 Introduction and Writing Updates   Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 240 of The Pulp Writer Show. My name is Jonathan Moeller. Today is February the 20th, 2025, and today we are discussing how to escape the trap of prestige that can sometimes catch writers, specifically in the form of MFA degrees and literary agents. Before we get into greater detail with that, we will start with Coupon of the Week and then an update on my current writing projects and then also a Question of the Week before we get to the main topic.   But first, let's start with Coupon of the Week. This week's coupon code will get you 50% off the audiobook of Dragonskull: Sword of the Squire, Book One of the Dragonskull series (as excellently narrated by Brad Wills), at my Payhip store. And that coupon code is SQUIRE50. The coupon code is valid through March 14th, 2025. So if you need a new audiobook as we head into spring, we have got you covered.   Now let's have an update on current writing projects. I am 94,000 words into Ghost in the Assembly. I had two 10,000 word days this week, which really moved the needle forward. We'll talk about those a little bit more later. I'm on Chapter 18 of 21, I believe, and if all goes well, I should hopefully finish the rough draft before the end of the month because I would like to get editing on that as soon as possible. For my next book, that will be Shield of Battle and I am 8,000 words into that and I'm hoping that'll come out in April. Ghost in the Assembly will be in March, if all goes well.   In audiobook news, recording for Cloak of Dragonfire (as excellently narrated by Hollis McCarthy) is finished and also recording on Orc-Hoard, the fourth book of the Half-Elven Thief series (as excellently narrated by Leanne Woodward). Both of those should be coming out sometime in March, if all goes well. So that's where I'm at with my current writing projects.   00:01:45 Question of the Week   And now let's move on to Question of the Week. Question of the Week is intended to inspire interesting discussions of enjoyable topics. This week's question, if you have off work or school because of a snow day or extreme cold or other intense weather, what do you do with the day? No wrong answers. We had a number of responses to this.   Surabhi says: Ha, jokes on you! It never snows where I live. We do sometimes bunk school on rainy days, though. What I mostly do then is catching up on homework or listening to the rain.   Justin says: We're having a snow day here; schools and many businesses are closed. So Lord of the Rings Extended Edition movie marathon! Popcorn popped, hot cocoa and cold soda prepped. I have to admit, that seems like a very good idea.   Mary says: Read, write, watch the snow fall, try to exercise inside.   Michael says: That hasn't happened to me since about 1985, but I seem to recall it was on my birthday and boy was I happy to miss school on my birthday! I think I read fantasy books, drank tea, and played video games.   Juana says: curl up with a book and hot chocolate or tea.   John says: Haven't had a snow day since I was a child, but I did either play in the snow or read a book (at that age, Andre Norton, Lester del Rey, or Ben Bova). I'm relocating later this year back to colder climes, but since I now only work remotely and have for the past six years, sadly my days change very little.   Jenny says: Usually shovel snow, make a pot of warm food, more snow removal, watch movies or shows. Bob says: I'm retired now, so probably not much different than any other day, but when I was working, I'd probably be out shoveling snow so I can get to work whenever the roads were clear. Of course, that necessitated more shoveling when the snowplow dumped its load across the end of my driveway and that's why I moved south, where I rarely see snow.   Yes, if you live in a colder climes and you have a driveway, you know that you'll shovel the driveway and then immediately when you're done, these snowplow will come and block up the end of the driveway.   Finally, Dan says: For myself, I enjoy a free day. However, soon the home duties encroach on this free time.   For myself, the answer is clearly that I write 10,000 words on the first snow day and then again on the second day because I just had two days in a row where it was too cold to leave the house. So what I did was stay home and wrote 20,000 words of Ghost in the Assembly.   00:03:54 Main Topic: Escaping the Trap of Prestige, Part I   Now onto our main topic of the week, Escaping the Trap of Prestige, Part I-as it pertains to MFA (Master of Fine Arts) degrees and agents. I'd like to preface this by saying that I'm not looking to knock anyone who has a MFA or who has a literary agent, especially if it's working out for you and you're happy with it. What I'm trying to do here is warn younger writers who are just starting out about the potential consequences of these things, which can be very severe if you choose wrongly. So that is my goal with this episode, to help writers escape the potentially bad consequences of the prestige trap because newer writers in particular want validation. I mean, we all want validation, but writers especially want validation and new writers are very vulnerable to wanting validation to the point where it's been well known for years that there's a large scam industry of various things that take advantage of newer writers looking for validation such as vanity publishers, scammy agents, and a wide variety of other online publishing scams. This isn't to say that MFAs and literary agents are scams, though some literary agents have committed serious crimes (as we'll discuss later), but again, to warn against the danger of wanting prestige too badly and the bad decisions that can lead you to make. And some of this comes from the idea of success in life, especially in the United States and large parts of the Western world, is hitting certain milestones in a specific order. Like you graduate from college, you get a good job, you get married, you buy a house, you have your first kid, and if you don't do these things in the right order, there's something wrong with you and you have made mistakes in life, which isn't necessarily true, but is something that people can fall fall prey to and use to make destructive decisions. In the writing world, some of those measures of success have until fairly recently been getting a Master of Fine Arts degree, finding an agent, getting traditionally published, and hitting the New York Times list. As of this recording, I have sold well over 2 million books without following that normal route to writing success. In fact, I think it's closer to 2.25 million now, and I mention that not to toot my own horn, but to say that there are routes outside of the potentially dangerous prestige paths I'm talking about. And despite that, many aspiring writers feel they must follow that specific route to writer success, otherwise they aren't real writers. They've got to get the MFA, the agent, traditionally published, and then the New York Times list. The quest for prestige can keep writers from succeeding in two ways that are more significant, getting their work in front of readers who want to read it and deriving income from writing. So today in the first part of this two part episode series, we're going to talk about two of those writing markers of prestige, MFAs and literary agents. Why are they no longer as important? What should you devote your energy and focus to instead?   So number one, the Master of Fine Arts trap. The Master of Fine Arts in writing has often been seen as a marker of writing ability, especially in the world of literary fiction. And I think the big problem, one of the big problems with MFA, first of all is cost. Getting a Master of Fine Arts degree is expensive, especially if you are not fortunate enough to receive scholarships or assistantships and so have to rely on student loans. The average cost of an MFA program is in the mid five figures when all is said and done, not even counting living expenses and textbooks and so forth. If you have to take out student loans to pay for that, that is a considerable loan burden, especially if you already have loans from your undergraduate degree.   Even the people who get their MFA paid for (usually in exchange for teaching introductory writing classes to first year university students), the opportunity cost of taking two to three years to get this degree means you're sacrificing other things in your personal and professional life in order to get this MFA. It's a huge outlay of time and energy, especially if you're moving across the country for a residential program. And what are you getting in exchange for this massive outlay of time, money, and effort?   You probably aren't going to learn the practical non-writing skills that you need in the modern writing world like marketing, data collection and analysis, and publication strategies (all of which I do on a fairly regular basis in addition to writing). All of these skills are important for writers now, even if they are traditionally published. The problem with many MFA programs is that they rarely, if ever teach these skills. It seems that what MFAs train their students to do is to become adjunct faculty professors with semester to semester contracts, which can pay around $2,000 to $4,000 USD per writing or literature course at most small to mid-size colleges and universities in the United States. Being an adjunct professor does not confer any benefits like health insurance or retirement funds.   I was talking about this episode with my podcast transcriptionist and she mentioned once she was at a faculty meeting where an adjunct professor in English with an MFA did the math and realized based on her hourly wage (based on all the actual hours she put into a semester), if she worked at the local gas station chain, she would be making $7 per hour more at the local gas chain and she would be only working 40 hours a week. That can be a very dismaying realization, especially after all the work you have put into getting an MFA and teaching. Many defenders of the MFA degree will say that the real value of the degree is learning how to take criticism and learning to edit. But if you're writing in a genre outside of literary fiction, poetry, and memoirs, you are not likely to find a lot of useful advice. To return to my transcriptionist's tales from her time inside academia, she once told me of meeting a faculty member who confessed that he never read a fantasy book and had no idea how to critique or help these students, and he was a writing professor. He meant well, but he's not even remotely an outlier in terms of MFA instructors and their familiarity with mysteries, romance, and science fiction works and fantasy, which is what most genre fiction is nowadays. Also, the quality of advice and help you receive varies wildly based on the quality of your cohort and instructors and their willingness to help others. It's a steep investment with very, very uncertain returns.   So in short, an MFA takes a huge outlay of time and money with very few tangible benefits, especially with genre writers. In all frankness I would say an MFA is the kind of degree you should not go into debt to get and you should only get if you can have it paid for through scholarships or assistantships or so forth. So what should you do, in my opinion, other than an MFA degree? I think you should write as much as possible. You get better by practicing. You should read extensively. You will learn about writing by reading extensively, ideally in more than one genre. If you read enough and write enough, eventually you get to the moment where you read something and think, hey, I could do a better job than this. This is a major boost in confidence for any writer.   It might be a good idea to join a local or online writing group if you'd like critique from other writers. A warning that writing groups can vary wildly in quality and some of them have a bad case of crab bucket syndrome, so you may have to try more than one group to find one that works for you.   Another thing to do would be to listen to advice from successful writers. I saw a brief video from an author who recently pointed out that many people online giving writing advice aren't current or successful writers. One of the downsides of the Internet is that anyone can brand themselves an expert, whip together a course, and sell it online for a ridiculous fee. And people like this, their successes in creating methods or courses that turn writing into something more complicated to make aspiring writers reliant upon that process. Aspiring writers may end up spinning their wheels following all of these steps instead of getting to the actual work of churning out drafts. They may be spending money they can't afford in order to learn ineffective or even damaging strategies.   Many successful writers offer sensible advice for free, such as Brandon Sanderson posting his writing lectures for free on his YouTube channel. If you're looking for writing advice, you could do a lot worse than watching those lectures. And if you're going to take advice from anyone you read on the internet, it's probably better to take advice from successful writers who have demonstrated that they know what they are doing.   And finally, this may be more general advice, but it's a good idea to be open to learning and observing new experiences. It's probably a good idea to go to museums and cultural events, read about the latest developments in science and history, go on a hike in a new place, and observe the world around you. New writers often ask where writers get their ideas come from, and they very often come from just serendipitous things you can observe in the world around you. And that is also a good way to get out of your own head. If you're worried too much about writing, it's probably time to go for a long walk.   So why are agents potentially dangerous to writers? For a long time (for a couple decades, in fact), from I'd say from maybe the ‘80s and the ‘90s to the rise of the Kindle in the 2010s, the only realistic way to get published for most writers in terms of fiction was to get a literary agent. Publishers did not take unsolicited submissions (most of them did not), and you had to go through an agent to send your manuscript to a publisher. The agents were very selective for a variety of reasons. Because of that, a lot of newer writers still idealize the process of getting agents. You'll see this on Twitter and other social media platforms where new writers will talk constantly about getting agents and what they have to do. And the ones who do get a request from an agent to send in the full manuscript after sending a few query chapters are just besides themselves with joy. And those who do get agents can sometimes sound like they're showing off their new boyfriend or girlfriend, like my agent says they like my book, or my agent says this or that. And as you can probably imagine from my description, this is an arrangement that has a lot of potential danger for the writer.   The traditional first step in this time period I was mentioning after finishing a book has been to get as prestigious of an agent as possible to contact publishers and negotiate deals on their behalf. The agent takes 10 to 20% of what a publisher pays a writer, but in theory can get a writer a better deal and are acting in their best business interests. And as I mentioned before, most significantly, most publishers are not willing to read submissions that are not submitted by an agent. If getting traditionally published is the goal, an agent is the crucial first step. I mean, that's the ideal that we've been talking about. In reality, traditional publishing is as cautious and risk averse as it has ever been. Agents have followed suit. It takes industry connections and/or a significant social media presence to even get an agent to look at your book.   Writing query letters and trying to get an agent also takes away from writing and is a completely separate skillset, as is the networking and social media work that is part of this process. Some people have spent months or even years working on query letters and getting an agent when they could have finished another book or more in the same time. Alright, so that is the practical and logistical reasons it's a bad idea for a writer to seek out an agent, and I frankly think you'd be better off. And now we get to the potentially criminal ones.   The thing about literary agents is there's no licensing or requirement or anything of that nature. You can set up a website and call yourself a literary agent. If you consider something like a lawyer, by contrast, I'm sure those of you who are lawyers in the United States will have many complaints and stories about your state bar, which is in charge of licensing lawyers. But the point is that the state bar exists, and if a lawyer is behaving in an unethical or unscrupulous matter, that can be brought as complaint to the state bar. Nothing like that exists for literary agents at all. And because of that, scammy agents are everywhere. Some try to get writers to pay a fee upfront or other made up fees, or they get cuts from scammy book publishers or book packaging services. Or in general, they just try to squeeze every penny possible from aspiring writers. And this is often sadly very easy to do because as we've mentioned, many newer writers still think getting an agent is a major mark of prestige and humans crave prestige. And even if you get a prestigious and seemingly legitimate agent, that can potentially lead to life ruining problems because many of the legitimate agents are very sticky fingered.   Several years ago, the firm of Donadio and Olson, which represented Fight Club author Chuck Palahniuk, Godfather author Mario Puzo, and Catch 22 author Joseph Heller found out that one of their accountants had been stealing millions from their authors for many years. Although the accountant was sentenced to two years of prison, it's unlikely those authors will receive the money back fully. As Palahniuk put it in a blog post, “the legal process will be long and offers an iffy reward.” Mr. Palahniuk also lost out on money from touring to promote his books because of this crisis and said he was unable to support himself financially as a result of these stolen royalties.   By not filtering your royalties and earning statements through a literary agency that can falsify reports about these documents (as the accountant in question did), you have a full sense of what you are earning and what amounts you should be receiving. Amazon is open to many criticisms because of its decisions, but they pay monthly and they send a very detailed spreadsheet monthly to any Kindle authors of what books sold and what they expect to earn. It's sometimes almost too much data to process. The traditional publishing world would never even consider showing that to writers and agents often keep that from their writers. Palahniuk trusted his agency and accepted the explanations that rampant piracy and financial difficulties in the publishing world were keeping over a million dollars in royalties from him. He even later found out that this accountant was keeping non-financial correspondence from him. Returning to the topic of Brandon Sanderson, I recently saw an interview between him and a podcaster Tim Ferris. He made the interesting point that the power centers in publishing have shifted from traditional publishing agents to the platform holders and the writers, the platform holders being people like Amazon, Apple, and Google who have the platforms that sell the books and the writers who bring the books to those platforms. The power is shifted away from agents and publishers to the platforms and writers. And because of that, in my frank opinion, literary agents are obsolete for those wishing to publish independently.   And my frank opinion is also that you should be independently publishing and not trying to get an agent or go with a traditional publisher. There's no reason to give someone 15% when you can upload the files to a service like KDP yourself. An agent will not be able to get you a better royalty from KDP. Amazon does not negotiate royalty rates at the agent level, and you have to be a writer on the scale of J.K. Rowling or maybe Dean Koontz to get any kind of special deal from Amazon.   So what should you do instead of seeking out an agent? Publish independently or self-publish. Be wary of excuses and explanations that prey upon emotional responses or a sense of loyalty to individuals, such as the case of Chuck Palahniuk, where they preyed on his fears of piracy and the instability of the publishing industry, as well as sympathy for someone who claimed to be taking care of a family member with a terminal disease. That was one of the excuses they used for why the records weren't right. Ask for facts and verify everything regularly. Publishers and agents are not your friends and not your family, and do not accept that approach in your business relationship with them. Learn how to read and interpret any financial statements you receive. Don't trust a third party to do this for you, or if you must do that, make sure they're being audited regularly by a third party, not from just someone else at their firm.   So the conclusion is that in my opinion, the prestige of getting an MFA and an agent are currently not worth the trade-off and there are considerable risks that you take if your main goals are to build a following and sell books. Prestige is not going to put food on the table. And in fact, if you have five figures of student loan debt from an MFA, it may be keeping you from putting food on the table. So if you want to be a writer, I think both seeking out an MFA and seeking out an agent would be a waste of your time and possibly counterproductive.   Next week in Part Two, we'll discuss two more prestige traps in writing: getting traditionally published and hitting the New York Times Bestseller List.   That is it for this week. Thank you for listening to The Pulp Writer Show. I hope you found the show useful. A reminder that you can listen to all the backup episodes on https://thepulpwritershow.com. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review on your podcasting platform of choice. Stay safe and stay healthy and see you all next week.

Renee Fountain is president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Lit Mgmt. She's been in the publishing industry for more than 30 years. She's worked at Harcourt and Simon & Schuster with some of the best writers and illustrators in publishing, has managed iconic classics like Raggedy Ann and Nancy Drew, and brokered film and television options. Renee also spent five years with the CW Television Network as a book scout and story analyst for scripted television. Renèe represents fiction and non-fiction, from YA to adult but doesn't represent picture books, middle grade, or previously published work. She attends writers' conferences where she provides manuscript critiques, fields author pitches, and teaches masterclasses. She offers free resources for writers at Reneefountain.com/podcastjumpstart and on her Substack page. In addition to agenting, Renèe helps writers hone their craft and books with developmental editing and coaching through her company Gryphon Quill and as a faculty member of The Manuscript Academy. Renee joins Barbara DeMarco-Barrett to talk about what she wishes a writer would send her, how she finds her clients, how the words on the page are more important than MFAs and a writer's age, query letters, what to do about your bio if you have no writing credits, comps, the state of the publishing biz, social media, and so much more. For more information on Writers on Writing and to become a supporter, visit our Patreon page. For a one-time donation, visit Ko-fi. You can find hundreds upon hundreds of past interviews on our website. If you'd like to support the show and indie bookstores, consider buying books at our bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our personal favorites. And on Spotify, you'll find to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners! (Recorded on January 31, 2025) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Host: Marrie Stone Music: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

As we continue to process the cultural fallout from the 2024 Presidential election, writer and podcaster Meghan Daum stops by the pod-dome to talk to Neal Pollack about the strange phenomenon of writers and creative people leaving Twitter for Bluesky, seeking a safe space from the MAGA storm. But there's no escape, Meghan and Neal conclude, and then proceed to talk shit about people getting MFAs, and about how the world has labeled them ideological traitors. But whatever the trend is, Neal concludes, he's going to miss that train and fail to cash in. That's the one constant in life.Meghan and Neal pivot to talking about the rise of Justine Bateman, who Meghan thinks is doing witty work right now on Twitter, providing "director's notes" for liberals having crying meltdowns over the Trump election. But let's be clear, Meghan says, Justine is one phone call away from being on Joe Rogan. She is not our friend. She has moved far beyond our reach. That's another important lesson to glean from recent weeks.Onward to less self-deprecating topics. Stephen Garrett appears to discuss 'Anora,' which both he and Neal agree is a funny but also serious modern take on the hooker with a heart of gold motif, a kind of hyper-realistic Pretty Woman set in Coney Island. Neal considers this an Oscar contender, Stephen is maybe a little more reluctant to hand off the statuette. But they both agree that Anora is a real crowd-pleaser.As is 'A Real Pain', from writer-director-actor Jesse Eisenberg. Neal takes the lead on this one, saying it's nice to see a movie that takes generational Holocaust trauma seriously, yet is also still funny and meaningful. And both he and Stephen agree that Kieran Culkin steals the show and deserves the praise that's about to rain down on him for the next few months.Justine Bateman does not then make a surprise appearance on the podcast.Enjoy the show!

Coco Mellors is the author of Cleopatra and Frankenstein, which was a Sunday Times bestseller and is currently being adapted for television. Her second novel, Blue Sisters, came out in September 20240 and was a Read with Jenna pick. She joins Marrie Stone to talk about it. Coco discusses writing from different POVs, writing compellingly about addiction and substance abuse, how to write sex scenes in all their various forms (and how to trick yourself to write difficult scenes by switching POV), the elegant weave of backstory, and her favorite advice by former professor Rick Moody. They also discuss the difficult heartbreak of the publishing process and the business of being a writer — rejections, MFAs, and the pressure of the next novel. For more information on Writers on Writing and extra writing perks, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. Support the show by buying books at our bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our personal favorites. You support independent bookstores and our show when you purchase books through the store. And on Spotify, you'll find to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on November 4, 2024) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Host: Marrie Stone Music and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

Zoe Whittall is a Canadian poet, novelist, and TV writer. She has published five novels including The Fake, The Spectacular, The Best Kind of People which is being adapted for film by Sarah Polley, the Lambda-winning Holding Still for as Long as Possible, and her debut, Bottle Rocket Hearts. She has film and TV credits on the Baroness von Sketch Show, Schitt's Creek, and others. She's also a poet, authoring three poetry collections to date. Her latest, Wild Failure, is a collection of 10 stories that capture the queer experience, exploring power dynamics, gender roles, shame, desire, insecurity, aging, and other universal themes that make us all human. It came out a few months ago by Ballantine and she joins Marrie Stone to talk it. They discuss writing across various genres and how they feed each other, getting into and out of a story, writing sex (both consensual and nonconsensual), and so much more. They also chat about the business side of writing -- getting your work published, MFAs, agents, and editors. For more information on Writers on Writing and extra writing perks, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. Support the show by buying books at our bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our personal favorites. You support independent bookstores and our show when you purchase books through the store. And on Spotify, you'll find to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on October 18, 2024) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Host: Marrie Stone Music and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

I was delighted to talk to the novelist Catherine Lacey, whose book Biography of X I admired very much indeed. We talked about personal websites, how she learned to code in HTML, 9 Beet Stretch, her writing on Substack (Untitled Thought Project), biography as a genre, modern novels, figurative art, Derek Parfit, MFAs, fiction and non-fiction, short stories, Merve Emre, W.S. Merwin, television, and plenty more. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk/subscribe

Zorgwekkende Ontwikkelingen in Jeugdzorg: Albrecht Martens Spreekt Zich Uit In deze podcast van Regelkevers uitte CDA fractievoorzitter in het Land van Cuijk, Albrecht Martens, zijn diepe zorgen over de jeugdzorg. Hij waarschuwde voor de stijgende kosten en de steeds langer wordende wachtlijsten. Martens benadrukte dat structurele oplossingen dringend nodig zijn. Ook andere lokale kwesties kwamen aan bod, zoals de multifunctionele accommodaties (MFAS). Martens ziet deze als een efficiënt middel voor gemeenschapshuisvesting, maar waarschuwt voor de noodzaak van zorgvuldige financiering. Martens pleitte voor verbeterde infrastructuur en duurzame mobiliteitsoplossingen. Hij sprak ook over startersleningen, die hij als tijdelijk hulpmiddel ziet, maar wees op het bredere probleem van betaalbare woningen. Tot slot besprak Martens het AZC in Velp/Grave. Hij benadrukte het belang van humane opvang, maar riep op tot dialoog tussen de gemeente, COA en inwoners om integratie soepel te laten verlopen. Martens pleit voor een betrokken en transparante aanpak van deze kwesties.

This is a packed episode with conversations ranging from politics in art, all-women exhibitions, art fairs and alternative gallery structures, and the benefits (and hardships) of getting an MFA. Writer's RoomLindsay is joined by Carla contributing editor, Aaron Horst, to talk with Catherine Wagley about her recent Carla article, “Women on the Plinth.” We talk through issues of politics, gender, and war in art, in reference to Mai-Thu Perret's exhibition, Feminaires, at David Kordansky Gallery. The conversation shifts into discussing some of the problematic aspects of all-women exhibitions; exhibitions like CUNT at Venus Over LA, and Revolution in the Making at Hauser & Wirth act as touchpoints. LA at LargeLindsay talks with Brett Schultz (BWSMX Gallery and Material Art Fair) and Francisco Cordero-Oceguera (Lodos Gallery) about their history in the art scene in Mexico city as well as the story behind their recent L.A.-based collective gallery, Ruberta.Resources to aid in Mexico post-Earthquakes: topos.red / comoayudar.mx / Centro De Acopio Parque Mexico / verificado19s.orgDear CarlaEvery episode on Dear Carla we answer a reader-submitted question about the art world. This episode, we asked Michael Ned Holte, an L.A. based writer, curator, and professor, to come in to answer our intern's question: “Why did I just get my MFA?”

It is the season 6 FINALE and we've got the amazing Brittany Luse here for a story about A-list authors, ill-advised MFAs, and pets in places where they shouldn't be. Listen to Brittany's podcast, It's Been a Minute, here! PRE-ORDER KELSEY'S BOOK, YOU DIDN'T HEAR THIS FROM ME, HERE!!!Subscribe to our new newsletter for writing from Kelsey and Alex, blog recommendations, and bonus secrets! You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com.Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/Episode transcript here.Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at normalgossip@defector.com or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP.Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs) and Ozzy Llinas Goodman (@ozzy_llinas). Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira) is our associate producer. Abigail Segel (@AbigailSegel) is our intern. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor.Show art by Tara Jacoby.Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.

Curtis Sittenfeld is the bestselling author of seven novels and one collection of short stories. Her books have been on many “Best Books of the Year” lists, optioned for television and film, and translated into 30 languages. Romantic Comedy is her latest. It was picked for Reese Witherspoon's Book Club in 2023 and it's now out in paperback. She joins Marrie Stone to talk about researching late-night comedy shows and how she accomplished her research during the pandemic, writing authentically about sex and relationships, when to decide to abandon a project, whether MFAs are worth it, and so much more. For more information on Writers on Writing and extra writing perks, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. Support the show by buying books at our bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our personal favorites. You'll support independent bookstores and our show by purchasing through the store. Finally, on Spotify listen to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on June 13, 2024) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Host: Marrie Stone Music and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

Mike O'Sullivan, CEO of data firm Sincera, joins The Current Report to break down why quality advertising is at a premium, made for advertising sites (MFAs), and the top 100 publishers list Sincera and The Trade Desk recently came out with._______The Current is owned and operated by The Trade Desk, Inc._______To read the full stories included in this episode:The successor to viewability is not a metric — it's a methodology: https://www.thecurrent.com/opinion-viewability-metric-methodology-sincera-mike-osullivanThe value of the open internet is growing in the eyes of advertisers: https://www.thecurrent.com/report-open-internet-digital-advertisersDespite pressure to tighten budgets, marketers still invest in authenticated digital channels like CTV: https://www.thecurrent.com/marketing-authenticated-digital-channels-ctvThe Current Report is our weekly news roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. We headline topical stories every edition — everything from connected TV to retail media networks to new initiatives around identity — offering our fresh take on why it's relevant for the marketing community. Subscribe: https://bit.ly/45HIaXH_______Each week, The Current gives you the most critical innovations in advertising that are happening on the open internet — identity, the future of TV, retail media, and beyond. Born inside The Trade Desk, The Current is a news platform dedicated to covering the latest in modern marketing — all from the front lines. Speaking to the marketing world's most influential players, we explain what these seismic shifts mean, how they are happening, and why they are taking place: https://bit.ly/3SAM0wR

Three Angsty Poets, Rebecca Evans, Tomas Baiza, and Christian Winn, gathered together to chat initially about poetry, but the conversation turned, and they found themselves invigorated, inspired, and mostly miffed at the world, the gods, the past, the future. Here is the first in their series of angsty thoughts: My Angst on Your Perception, where they chat about audience and readers' assumptions pressed on the narrator, the speaker, the poet.  Rebecca Evans writes the difficult, the heart-full, the guidebooks for survivors. Her work has appeared in Narratively, The Rumpus, Brevity, and more. She's earned two MFAs, one in creative nonfiction, the other in poetry, University of Nevada, Reno at Lake Tahoe. She's authored a full-length poetry collection, Tangled by Blood (Moon Tide Press, 2023), and has a second poetry book, Safe Handling, forthcoming (Moon Tide Press, 2024). She shares space with four Newfoundlands and her sons in a tiny Idaho town.  rebeccaevanswriter.com    Tomás Baiza is originally from San José, California, and now finds himself in Boise, Idaho. He is the author of the novel, Delivery: A Pocho's Accidental Guide to College, Love, and Pizza Delivery (Running Wild Press, 2023), and the mixed-genre collection A Purpose to Our Savagery (RIZE Press, 2023). Delivery was selected as the 2024 Treasure Valley Reads featured novel, and Tomás's writing has been nominated for the Pushcart Prize, the Best of the Net, and Best American Short Stories anthologies. Tomás has fenced in Italy, been rescued by helicopter from the Sierra Nevada, fended off wild dogs while hitchhiking in rural Morelos, México, and once delivered a dozen pizzas to a Klingon-themed orgy at a sci-fi convention. When he is not writing, Tomás is running trails or obsessing over bonsai trees.      Christian Winn is a fiction writer, poet, nonfiction writer, teacher of creative writing, and producer of literary and storytelling events based in Boise, Idaho. He is the author of two story collections, NAKED ME, and What's Wrong With You is What's Wrong With Me, and the forthcoming novels, Crocodile, and My History With Careless People and Other Stories. His work has appeared in McSweeney's, Ploughshares, The Chicago Tribune's Printers Row Journal, Glimmer Train, Joyland, ExPat Press, TriQuarterly, Gulf Coast, and many other fine magazines and journals. He was the Idaho Writer in Residence, the State's highest literary honor, from 2016-2019. Find out more about Winn's writings and work at christianwinn.com 

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit smokeempodcast.substack.comLeigh Stein worked at Richual, a fast-rising women's wellness company, when she was fired for posting about the company's colon hydrotherapy requirement. *Actually, this did not happen to Leigh Stein, it happened to a character in her 2020 female empowerment satire SELF-CARE, which Stein has been promoting in a gonzo PR campaign on Instagram, delighting fans and confounding casual followers, who'd grown accustomed to her tart publishing advice (her official lane). Nancy and Sarah talk to Stein about the absurdities of wellness and modern feminism, the circular firing squad of women's-only spaces, and whether MFAs make any sense (mostly no). Also covered:* “Does Mike Pesca know we think he's cute?”* Leigh Stein, book crisis expert* A famous writer (among others) falls for Leigh's Instagram satire* Why TikTok/IG videos get filmed in cars* Women Full of Binders / Binders Full of Women / Full Binders of Women What? * That time Sarah ruined Leigh's life* Save the world every time you take a bubble bath!* When Leigh's husband wouldn't call himself a feminist* Woke Leigh delves on why feminism and social justice mattered so deeply* The MFA racket* What today's cancel mobs have in common with Renaissance poisoner Lucrezia Borgia* Leigh wrote a poem for Lip Smackers magazine* Nancy wrote an ode to peanut butter* Sarah is sexting with the Fletcher's corny dog account* “We get these mixed messages, like, we should help each other; do it for the sisterhood; are you lifting up other women? If not, you're a bad woman. And then you do that and everyone destroys you.”Plus, a poetry tempest in a teapot, the times when Sarah vacuums in a wig, why women don't want to be objectified (until they do), and much more!Want to meet your heroes the second-best host of this podcast AND Mike Pesca in person? If you're in NYC this Thursday, you can! Details after the break.Gratuitous hot pic of Nancy that Sarah found while recording:Those low-cut dresses don't buy themselves. Become a paid subscriber.

Literary agent Emma Dries is a writer and editor, and an agent at Triangle House Literary, where she represents literary fiction, narrative nonfiction, and academic crossover, with a special interest in climate writing. She began her career in editorial, working with bestselling and award winning authors at Alfred A. Knopf, Doubleday,  Ecco, and Flatiron Books. She has a BA in History from the University of Chicago and an MFA in Fiction from Johns Hopkins, where she also taught undergraduate fiction and poetry. Her writing has been published in Lit Hub, Bookforum, Outside and Dwell and she was the finalist for the Boston Review 2021 Aura Estrada Short Story Contest. Emma joins Barbara DeMarco-Barrett to talk about about unlikeable characters in fiction, query letters, MFAs, when you know a manuscript is ready to send out, ageism, a conversation you should have with an agent before signing, and much more. For more information on Writers on Writing and extra writing perks, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. You can also support the show by buying books at our new bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our own personal favorites. By purchasing through the store, you'll support both independent bookstores and our show. Finally, on Spotify you can listen to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on January 20, 2024)  Host: Barbara DeMarco-BarrettHost: Marrie StoneMusic and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

Rebecca Evans writes the difficult, the heart-full, the guidebooks for survivors. Her debut memoir in verse, Tangled by Blood, bridges motherhood and betrayal, untangling wounds and restorying what it means to be a mother. She's a memoirist, essayist, and poet, infusing her love of empowerment with craft.  She teaches high school teens in the Juvie system through journaling and art projects. Rebecca is also a military veteran, a practicing Jew, a self-taught gardener, and shares space with four Newfoundlands and her sons She specializes in writing workshops for veterans and those diving deep in narrative. She co-hosts Radio Boise's Writer to Writer show on Stray theater and does her best writing in a hidden cove beneath her stairway.     She's earned two MFAs, one in creative nonfiction, the other in poetry, University of Nevada, Reno at Lake Tahoe. Her poems and essays have appeared in Narratively, The Rumpus, Hypertext Magazine, War, Literature & the Arts, The Limberlost Review, and more, along with a handful of anthologies.     She's co-edited an anthology of poems, when there are nine, a tribute to the life and achievements of Ruth Bader Ginsburg (Moon Tide Press, 2022). Her full-length poetry collection, a memoir-in-verse, Tangled by Blood (Moon Tide Press. 2023), is available wherever fine books are sold.    https://rebeccaevanswriter.com/ 

Mark Tavani started his publishing career in 2000 with Ballantine Books and spent more than 23 years with Penguin Random House, Bantam, Del Rey, and G.P. Putnam's Sons. He edited bestsellers and award-winners across numerous categories of fiction and nonfiction, including books by Jim Abbott, Steve Berry, C.J. Box, Justin Cronin, Clive and Dirk Cussler, Jeffery Deaver, Lisa Gardner, Jack McCallum, Lisa Scottoline, Bill Simmons, and R.L. Stine. He recently joined the David Black Literary Agency, where he represents both fiction and nonfiction. Mark has a degree in Creative Writing from the University of Pittsburgh. He is an adjunct professor with NYU's School of Professional Studies and lives with his wife, his daughters, and a headstrong dog in Rutherford, New Jersey.  Mark Tavani joined Barbara DeMarco-Barrett to talk about what he's looking for, the dreaded comps, the category of bookclub fiction, submitting memoir, ageism in publishing (or not), why MFAs and the literary community involvement are important, how to know if an agent is the right fit for you, and so much more. For more information on Writers on Writing and additional writing tips, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. We're also excited to announce the opening of our new bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our own personal favorites. By purchasing through the store, you'll support both independent bookstores and our show. New titles will be added all the time (it's a work in progress). Finally, on Spotify you can listen to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on November 17, 2023)  Host: Barbara DeMarco-BarrettHost: Marrie StoneMusic and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

In the first episode of Season 1, co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez speak with LitFriends Angela Flournoy & Justin Torres about their enduring friendship, writing in a precarious world, and chosen family. Links https://sites.libsyn.com/494238 www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://linktr.ee/litfriendspodcast https://www.instagram.com/litfriendspodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553436475678 https://justin-torres.com/ https://www.angelaflournoy.com/ https://www.asalisolomon.com/ Transcript Annie & Lito (00:01) Welcome to LitFriends! Hey LitFriends! Annie: Welcome to the show. Lito: Today we're speaking with the great writers and LitFriends, Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy. Annie: About chosen family, the dreaded second novel, and failure and success. Lito: So grab your bestie and— 
 Both: Get ready to get lit! Lito: That's so cute. Annie: It's cute. It's cute. We're cute! Lito: Cute, cute… So you had a question? Annie (00:29) I do. I have a question for you, Lito. Are you a cat or an ox? Lito: I mean, I would hope that the answer is so obvious that it almost bears not asking the question. I'm a cat. Annie: Okay, so Asali Solomon at The Claw asked us all, are you an ox or a cat? Lito: That's a great question. Annie: And as a writer... You know, the oxen are the people who work every day in the field, clock in, clock out, pay themselves a quarter an hour. I'm literally talking about me. The cats are people who are playful, exploratory, when the mood strikes them… Lito: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Annie Lito (01:26) So are you an ox or a cat? Lito: I'm a cat. I think anyone who's ever met me would say I'm a cat. Annie: How does that show up in your writing? Lito: Well, I mean, play is so important to me—she'll be on the  podcast in a couple of episodes, but when I first...was studying with Lucy, that was one of the first things that she spoke about in our class, and it kind of blew up my whole world. I had been writing for a long time already, but I hadn't thought of it as play, or there was some permission I needed or something. So the idea of play is really central to what I do and love. You wouldn't necessarily know that from the novel that I'm writing, which is sort of a dark book. Um, but it did start out with a lot of play and, I'm also, as you could probably just hear, my cat is coming into the room. Annie: Your cat is like, yes, Lito is us. RiffRaff is like, "Lito is cat." Lito: My cat Riff Raff, yes. Smarty pants. Um, he needed to join in on this conversation. Anyways, I'm a cat. I, I'm fickle when it comes to my work. Um. I don't want to work on my novel all the time, which is great because life has found so many ways to prevent it from happening. So in the new year, in 2024, it will be 7 years since I've started writing this book, and it's still, it's going to take a few more months at least. And what about you? Annie:  (03:09) I'm four oxen pulling a cart carrying all of my ancestors. I am very much the immigrant who says, get up, go do the work, come back, go do the work. And believe it or not, for me, there is a lot of joy in that. It's a... It allows, you know, it's Csikszentmihalyi's Flow, actually. So it doesn't feel like drudgery, usually. It does feel like joy. And I'm actually curious for all you LitFriends out there, if you're an ox or a cat. Lito: Yes, that's such a great idea. Please email us at litfriendspodcast@gmail.com, and tell us if you're a cat or an oxen or share on all your socials. Annie: Yeah, maybe we should poll them. That would be fun. Lito: That's a good idea. #LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: The reason I'm asking is because, of course, both Justin and Angela, who we speak with today in this episode, talk about what it's like to go for 10 years between books. "A banger a decade," is what Angela says. Lito: It's so funny. Annie: And you, you know, part of that, they have this very rich conversation about how, when you put everything into the first book, it takes a lot to get to the second book. But I think also there's a lot of play, right? And there's a lot of understanding that writing appears in different forms. And it might be the second novel, but it might be something else. Lito: For sure. I really like how they talk about— that the practice of writing is actually a practice of reading. And I think that any serious writer spends most of their time reading. And not just reading books, but texts of all kinds, in the world, at museums, as Justin points out, art, television, even the trashiest TV show has so much to offer. Annie: (05:12) And there's such a generosity to the way they think of themselves as artists, and also generosity in how they show up for one another as friends, and acknowledging when they fail one another as we as we see in this episode. And I remember my introduction to Justin when I was a grad student at Syracuse. I read We the Animals and fell in love with it, asked him to come do a reading at Syracuse, which was wonderful. And my wife who, at that time was my Bey-ancé, she was turning 30. We had no money. I couldn't buy her anything. Not in grad school. So I asked Justin if he would autograph his story, "Reverting to a Wild State," which is about a breakup in reverse, for Sara. Lito: Oh, I love that story. Annie: And he did, and he thought it was so beautiful, and I was like, "let me send it to you." He's like, "no, I've got it." He just shipped it to me. He didn't know me. We didn't know each other. Lito: He knew you because of books. He knew you because he loved literature. Annie: Yeah. And I remember that in it. I held on to it at a time when that act really mattered. Lito: One of the things I love about our interview with Justin and Angela is how much all of us talk about generosity, and how Justin and Angela display it in their conversation with each other and with us. And I'm just curious, how do you see that coming through also in Angela's work? Annie: (07:00) You know, I remember her talking about how the idea for the book began with this image of people moving around a house at night. This is The Turner House. And she says this image opens up a lot of questions. And one of the things that really stays with me about that book is how masterful she is at shifting perspective, particularly between siblings, which I find to be such a challenge for writers, right? Like your siblings are the people who are closest to you and sometimes also the farthest away. And she gets that so intimately on the page. And of course, in our conversation with Angela and Justin, one of the things they talk about is being family, essentially being siblings. And that's one of the most powerful echoes of the conversation. They talk about being a chosen family and having to choose again and again and again. And that spirit of consciousness and connection, I feel that very much in Angela's work, and of course in Justin's too. Lito: Oh Annie, I choose you again and again, I choose you. Annie: Oh, I choo-choo-choose you! Lito: So stupid. Annie: (08:05) After the break, we'll be back with Justin and Angela. Annie: (08:24) And we're back. Lito: I just wanted to mention, too, that we spoke with Angela and Justin in October during the writer's strike in Hollywood, and just before Justin's new book, Blackouts, was released. And just last week, as you're hearing this podcast. Annie: Just last week. Lito: Just last week! He won the National Book Award for a book that took him 10 years to write. Annie: Absolutely. Annie: Justin Torres is the author of Blackouts, a novel about queer histories that are hidden, erased and re-imagined. Blackouts won the 2023 National Book Award for fiction. His debut novel, We the Animals, has been translated into 15 languages and was adapted into a feature film. He was named National Book Foundation's Five Under 35. His work appears in the New Yorker, Harper's, Granta, Tin House, Best American Essays, and elsewhere. He lives in Los Angeles and teaches at UCLA. Lito: Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, won the VCU-Cabel First Novel Prize, and was also a finalist for both the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and an NAACP Image Award. Angela is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and her nonfiction has appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Angela is a faculty member in the low residency MFA program at Warren Wilson College. Lito: (10:36) I'm so grateful that you guys found time to meet with us today, and I've thought about you two as friends since I think this is like the first time you've done something like what you did in 2017, the "Proper Missive"—do you remember that—you published in Spook? And it stuck with me. I was like a big, nerding out, and I bought it and I have it still. And I thought about that. And Justin, you know that you're very personal— there's a personal connection with me because I found your book on my way to my first master's program. No one had said anything about it to me where I was coming from, and it was really great. And Angela, I first found your book. I was so amazed and moved by the talk you don't remember at Syracuse. Angela: I don't remember the lunch. I remember being at Syracuse, and there being a talk, yes. Lito: You inscribed your book, "Here's to Language," which I think is hilarious and also really sweet. And I think we must have said something about language at some point. But anyways, thank you so much both for being here. Justin: Thank you for having us. Angela: Very happy to be here. Lito: So let's start. Why don't you tell us about your friend in a few sentences? So Angela, you can go first. Tell us about Justin. Angela: (11:23) Justin is the first person that I met in Iowa City when I was visiting and deciding if I was going to go there, but was I really deciding no? I'll let you go there. But that I could like, deciding whether I would be miserable while I was there. And so Justin was the first person I met. And feel like Justin is five years older than me. It has to be said.  Justin: Does it? Angela: When I think about people, and I think about like mentors, I have other like amazing mentors, but like, I think that there's really something special about somebody who some people might think is your peer, but like, in a lot of ways you've been like looking up to them and, um, that has been me with Justin. I think of him as like a person who is not only, he's a Capricorn, and he has big Capricorn energy. I am an Aquarius. I do not want to be perceived— Justin: I don't agree with any of this. But I don't know. I don't follow any of this. Angela: But Justin is in the business of perceiving me and also gathering me up and helping me do better. My life is just always getting better because of it. I'm grateful for it. Annie: That is beautiful, all of that is beautiful. Justin, tell us about Angela. Justin: I can't follow that, that is so...  Angela: Acurate! Justin: You're so prepared! You're so sweet! I'm so touched! Angela: Only a Capricorn would be touched by somebody saying that you perceive them and gather them up and make them feel better. Ha ha ha! Justin: I like that, I do like that. Let's see, yeah. I mean, I think that when we met, I had already been in Iowa for a year, and within two seconds, I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends, and you don't know it yet. But I knew it intensely. And yeah, I think that one of the, I agree that I think we keep each other honest, I think. I think that one of the things that I just so appreciate about Angela is that, you know, yeah, you see my bullshit. You put up with it for like a certain amount of time, and then you're like, all right, we need to talk about the bullshit that you're pulling right now. And I love it, I love it, love it, love it, because I don't know, I think you really keep me grounded. I think that, yeah, it's been really (14:09) wonderful to have you in my life. And like, our lives really, really kind of pivoted towards one another. You know, like we've, it was not just like, oh, we were in grad school and then, you know, whatever, we have similar career paths, so we stayed friends or whatever. It's like, we became family. And, you know, every, every kind of major event in either of our lives is a major event, a shared major event, right? And that's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine my life without you. I honestly can't. Angela: Likewise. I gave birth in Justin's home. Annie: Oh! Sweet! Justin: In my bathroom, over there. Right over there. Lito: Whoa, congratulations, and also scary(?)! Angela: It's in a book I'm writing, so I won't say so much about it, but it was a COVID home birth success story. And yeah, like family. Lito: Was that the plan or did that just happen? Angela: Well, It wasn't the plan and then it was the plan. Justin: Yeah, exactly. COVID wasn't the plan. Angela: No. Justin: The plan was Angela was gonna sublet my place with her husband and she was pregnant. And then, COVID happened Angela: There were a lot of pivots. But we did, it was like enough of a plan where we got his blessing to give birth in his home. Justin: It wasn't a surprise. Angela: It was a surprise that it was in the bathroom, but that's a different story. Annie: You blessed that bathroom is all I can say. Angela: Yeah. Lito: We'll be right back. Back to the show. Annie: (16:22) Well, I want to come back to what Lido was saying about proper missives. I love the intimacy. I mean, I know you weren't writing those to one another for kind of public consumption, but the intimacy and the connection, it's so moving. And I was thinking about, you know, Justin, you, you talk about Angela as kind of pointing the way to beauty and helping you see the world anew or differently. And Angela, you talked about how Justin encourages you to take up space as a political act. I'm just wondering what else you all have taught one another. What has your LitFriend taught you? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we did write that for public consumption. Angela: Yes, it was the editor-in-chief of Spook, Jason Parham. Spook is relaunching soon, so look out for it. He just told me that, like, the other day. And he's moving to L.A. So many things are happening. But he reached out to us and was really interested in—he's a big archives guy and like how—he thought it was valuable the way that writers of past generations, they have these documents of their letters to each other, to their editors, to their friends, to their enemies, and how this generation, because we're just texting through it, we don't really have that. And so that was really just the extent of the assignment, was to write letters to each other, which, of course, we still ended up using email to do. But we really tried to keep it in the spirit of a letter and not just something you kind of dash off. Justin: And we were not living in the same place at that time. Angela: No. Justin: So it was, it did feel kind of— Angela: I was in Provincetown, I think. Justin: Yeah, I remember I was on a train when I was, when I was doing— I can't remember where I was going or, but I remember a lot of it was— or a few of those correspondences— because it went over days, weeks. Lito: Yeah, you were going to Paris. Angela: Oh. Glamorous train. You were on the Eurostar. Justin: Wow. Annie: You basically said the same thing then, Angela. Call him out. Justin: (18:32) Yeah, and I think that what I was saying was that one of the things I loved about that was it really forced us to dive deeper, right? To kind of— Sometimes we can stay very much on the surface because we talk every day. And so it was really nice to see, not just what was kind of on your mind in the background, but also how you were processing it, how you kind of made language and meaning out of it. I was just like... I don't know, it's like, I know you're so deep, but then we also love to be shallow. And so it's so nice to be like, to connect from that deep place. Annie: One of the things that I'm so drawn to about both of your work is how you write about family, the way it shapes us, the way it wounds us, what it means to watch family members suffer. You talk about it as the question of the donut hole in "Proper Missive. Angela, I remember you were writing about your father. When you were writing about him, you talk about, "the assumption that a flawed person should be subject to anyone's definition." And Justin, I'm thinking quite broadly in terms of, you know, chosen or logical family. One of my favorite pieces that I teach in my creative non-fiction class is "Leashed," and you write there, "my friends, those tough women and queers were all too sharp and creative for their jobs. If I'm nostalgic, it's not because I was happy in those precarious years, but because I was deeply moved by our resourcefulness." I'm just wondering how you think about, you know, (20:09) family, logical family, and how your lit friendship fits into this? Justin: Who's going first? Angela: You. Justin: Let's see, I think that it's such a great question. I actually like, I use that little short kind of tiny little piece that you referenced. I use that in my book, in Blackouts, that's coming out. I think that, which is a book about chosen family as well, and lineages, and what do you do when you feel there's some kind of disruption, right? That like if you're estranged from your biological family or you know or you just need these connections, these kind of queer connections to and other ways of thinking about family that are not related to (21:06) bloodlines. Like we said earlier, we are family, and we've known that for quite a while. It was something that, I don't know. You know, it's like something that I don't think you ever really need to say. It's just you know who your people are. And I think that, and I think that it's a choice that you make and remake again and again and again. And that is something that is, I don't know, it's so exceptional, right? Compared to bloodlines and biological family, which can be hugely important and bring a lot of meaning to people. But that you're choosing this again and again. Like almost like the kind of past tense chosen family is like, it's like a little bit inaccurate, right? It's like the family you choose, and keep choosing, and you're choosing right now, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Angela: Just that the continuity of it, not in the sense that it's always going to be there, but that like you are, you're like an active, uh, engager like in it. In it, I just think about, I think about that, like, uh, at this point we know each other for 14 years. And the way that there's just necessarily we're not the same people but you have to keep, and you have to keep engaging, and you have to keep figuring out how to navigate different things and I think particularly as like LitFriends there's the huge thing you have to navigate which is especially if you're friends before that you're just like some kids who got into this program that people think are fancy, but you're just like, anything can happen, right? From there to being the capital— going from just like lowercase w, "writer," to capital A, "Author." And like what that, I mean, I've seen many a friendship where that is the rupture. And so particularly figuring out, like, how are you going to navigate that, and how are you going to still be in each other's lives. (23:16.33) Um, one thing I think about, as a person who thinks about family a lot is, with your family, sometimes you can like harm one another, and you'll just take some time off, or you'll just be like, that's how they are. But with the family that you continue to choose, you have to, ideally, you gotta do something about it. You have to actually have the engagement, and you have to figure out how to come out on the other side of it. And that is something that is harder and really in so many ways, all the more precious because of it. And it requires a kind of resilience and also just like a trust. And again, because Justin, you know, likes to gather me up, there's been a few times when I was like, "Oh, no, like, we've got beef, what's gonna happen?" And Justin is like, "we're family, what's gonna happen is we're gonna have to talk about this beef, and then move on." Justin: Yeah. And I think that I think that also you have, you're really good at reminding me to be responsible, right? That just because I've made this commitment, in my mind, right, Like we're committed forever. Like we're family. Like we can't, we can't break up, right? Like it's just like, that's just the way it is. It doesn't get me off the hook of showing up in other ways and being responsible and like, you know, that I can be quite flaky. Angela: I mean, that's just, you've been in L.A. long enough. It's just, you're just becoming native. Justin:  I think I always don't, I don't wanna disappoint you. I don't want you ever to feel like you were looking around for support, and I wasn't there. Angela: Do people cry on this podcast? Annie: We time it. Right at the half hour. Justin: There's been a few moments when I feel it, when I've felt (25:21) maybe that wasn't there enough, you know? And, you know, and if, you know, and like, I don't know, that's when you know it's the real stuff because it like keeps me up at night. You know, I'm just like, wow, you know, what does she need? What can I give? How can I be there? And yeah. Angela: Wow.  There you are. Justin: Here we are. Annie: Lito and I are also family, and it sort of feels never too late. But what you're saying about kind of the like renewing your vows, renewing your commitment over and over, it feels very, very true. Lito: Very true. Yeah yeah yeah. Annie: And life-saving, you know, like life affirming. Lito: It feels real. Justin: Yeah. Look at us. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of you guys too. Lito: It's a love fest over here. Angela: Thanks for having it. Annie: We'll be right back. Annie: (26:26) Welcome back. Angela: Also, particularly again, thinking about a lot of the friends that you have, they're not necessarily also sometimes colleagues. And I think that one thing that Justin really modeled, because I didn't have anything to be transparent about, was just transparency about things. Not just how much he's getting paid for things, but just like what was worth it, what's not worth it, like what is just the way something is and you can like take it or leave it. And I think that in the beginning it was more of me kind of taking that information because I didn't have anybody offering me anything. But now I feel like it's really an exchange of information. And I think that there are people who I love, like, in this industry, if you will, who that's just not our relationship. That doesn't mean we don't have great friendships, but like that is something that like if I'm broke, he knows I'm broke. I never feel the need to pretend and hide or like, you know, and likewise, like if he don't got it, I know he don't got it. It's not, it's just, it just, and I feel like that is something also that is a, it's, um, I think it's important. Especially because you write a book, you know, it does well. And then there are some years in between before you write another. Some of us in this room, maybe take a decade. All of us in this room, maybe take a decade. But yeah, so just really being able to be, to feel like you can still show up at any point in whatever you're doing creatively. Justin: (28:16) Because this is about literary friendships, I think that it's, yeah, there's those two sides, right? There's the business side, which can cause a lot of friction, especially if, you know, things go differently for different books and people have different trajectories. I mean, you're like, you know:  you've surpassed.  Angela: I don't know if that's true.  Justin: But there's that like business side of it. And then there's the literary side as well. And I think that sometimes if it just slides too much into talking about—it's like we could both be selling sprockets, right? There's so much minutiae. It's like we could talk about contracts and whatever and like gigs and da-da-da ad nauseam. And we have to remember to talk about literary side, the literature, the work, the sentences, what we're reading in order to kind of sustain the literary quality of a literary friendship, right?  Angela: One thing I remember you told me, I don't know, ages ago that I thought at the time like oh he's gassing me he's practicing things that he says his students tell me—but now I realize that it is also one of the reasons why our friendship has sustained is you were like ,you know, we can talk about whether a book is successful in 800 ways, but we have to try to remember to just be fans, to be fans of books, of literature, of people writing. And I think that is something that I not only try to practice, but that's something that I think is really foundational to relationship. Everyone can be a hater, and it can be fun sometimes, but like… (30:08) We really do like want to put each other on to the books that we're like excited about. Like I remember when you read or reread Seasons of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih, and I hadn't read it before.  I mean, it's like a, it's a seminal or really a really famous African text, but I had never read it. Or like Maryse Condé, like I hadn't read it as like a real adult and being able to just like talk about that and know that there's a person who's, you know, you could be in polite conversation with somebody who you think is really smart and then you're like you know what I decided I wanted to reread—I don't know—something a person might wanna reread and they're like, Oh, what are you gonna do next? You gonna read a Moby Dick? And you're like, Oh damn, they just shamed me. You know, they just shamed me for being a nerd. But that's not gonna happen here. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Annie: I do wanna go back to something you were alluding to. Angela, you were talking quite openly about it, too, which is shifting from writer to capital A author and the pressure that comes with that.  For the two of you, you had incredible well-deserved success early in your career, but I imagine that doesn't come without a lot of sleepless nights, right? I'm thinking about an interview I heard with Ta-Nehisi Coates where he talks about his friends not reaching out thinking, like, He's good, like, You blew up, you're good. And talking about actually what a lonely position that can be. I'm just wondering, you know, how you've both managed to take care of one another through those highs and lows, or being on that track alongside one another.  And even, you know, competition between lit friends. Justin: (32:13) Yeah, I mean, I think that we're just kind of, like our dispositions: we're very lucky in that I think we, before we met, it wasn't something that we like decided on. It was just before we met, I think we're just boosters, right. We're like, The people we love, their success is our success, right? And I think that's one of the reasons to where we are such good friends, it's because we share that, right? So that I think makes it slightly easier as far as like the competition side of things goes. I think that if it really does feel like you're a family and you're community and like you understand that this is a kind of shared win. I don't know, it's hard to talk about though because we both got really lucky.  Angela: Yeah.  Justin: You know, I mean, who wants to hear from people who got really lucky with their first books talking about how hard it is? You know what I mean?  We just, we didn't have, we didn't have any kind of that disparity between— Angela: Yeah, I'm sure, but—I would say even so—if we had different dispositions, we might be trying to split hairs about who got what. But I think for me—and Justin and I grew up very differently in some ways, but I think we grew up from a class background similarly, and we're both like, We're not supposed to be here, like, what can we get? Like, what can we get? And like, who has the information to help us get it? And so I've never been like, why is he in that room when I'm not in that room? I'm like, give me the intel about the room. That might be the closest I ever get to being in there, but I need to know like what's going on in there. And that has, I think, been the way that I just view any success of anybody that I know. that I feel like I can ask those questions to is like, not necessarily like, oh, can you put me on? Like now that you have something, can I have some of it? But just like, just information, just like, what's it like? And that to me is really useful. But also I think that one thing, when you have people, not just Justin, but like other friends and mentors of mine, when you have people who are honest and upfront about whatever kind of success they've had, you… you just realize that there's a lot of different ways to feel successful, right? Because I have friends who, to me, I'm like, they made it, but they're not convinced they have. And I have other friends that, like, to the outside world, they'd be like, wow, they have a little book, nobody cares. But they feel like they did it, you know? And so I realized it's so much about disposition also. Lito:   Do you feel that a lot about being each other's boosters? I mean, obviously it's about your personalities and who you are as people. I'm also curious how much of that, like Angela, you said you were a gatecrasher. You feel like a gatecrasher a lot. I don't know. What are your thoughts on intersectionality? How does it inform your work and your friendship? How does it affect how you boost each other? I'm also curious if there's something particular about lit friendships that intersect with intersectionality and those categories, especially for people who form intimate relationships with men.  Justin:   Wait, say more.  Like how do blowjobs come in?   Angela:  (36:01.171). I was like one thing we have in common is— Lito: More like, less blow jobs, more like having to deal with men and the various ways they, you know, respond to patriarchy.  Justin: Yeah, I think you kind of said it, right? I think that there's something about hustling and figuring out, like, how am I gonna find some stability in this world.  And I mean we have nominated each other for every single thing that there is. If either one of us gets a chance.  Angela: Till the end of time.  Justin:   Till the end of time, right? And it's just, and I think that, and we've shared all information about everything. There's no, and I think that that's kind of like that quote that you read before, right, about this nostalgia and feeling nostalgic, not for the precarity, but for the way that it bonds people, right? The way that the precarity, like you pull, you share resources, you pull resources, you come together and you talk shit and you don't let people get too down in the dumps and depressed. And you're like, no, we're going to do this. We're going to get ourselves out of this hole and we're going to pull each other up. And, and that I think is like, that's, that's the secret, I think.  Angela: Are you answering the question about men?  Justin:   Oh, men!  Angela: And dealing with men.  Justin: I love that I was just like, oh, you're talking about blow jobs. But no, you were talking about patriarchy.  Lito: Same thing, really.  Annie: In the room I'm in, we do not think there's a difference.  Justin: It's fascinating, right? Because when we were at Iowa together, I remember some of the critiques I got from some of the men, some of the straight men, some of the white straight men, was about a kind of provincialism to my writing, right? That what I was writing about was small and minor and just about particularities of identity and that it wasn't broad and expansive and it wasn't universal. That was expected. That was the kind of critique that was expected. The world has changed so much and so quickly in the last 15 years. It's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because that kind of thing, I wasn't, I didn't feel indignant. Maybe I felt a little.  Angela: Yeah, you just, but you just like knew you were going to ignore them. Like, you know, like, but no, but you didn't feel like you were going to, like it was worth, except there were some instances we're not going to get into details, but like, it didn't feel like it was worth spending, like unpacking it or trying to call them out. You just were like, Oh, boop, you're over here. Like, you're not.  Justin: Yeah, yeah. Like, I've been hearing this shit my whole life. Like, it wasn't like, there's no space for this kind of thing in the workshop. I was like, this is the world. This is unexpected. But now I don't think that would fly, right?  Angela:   No. I think maybe in like 70% of workshop spaces that I have been in. Well, I guess I've been running them. But like, I just don't, but like also just the disposition of the students is that they assume that somebody is going to like say something or push back on that. But also I guess maybe more broadly the idea of when you say intersectionality, what do you mean exactly? Lito: I think I wanted to keep it open on purpose. But I think I mean the ways that all of these different identities that we take up and that are imposed upon us, how they intersect with one another, race, class, et cetera. Yeah. Angela: I think one of the reasons why Justin and I gravitated toward each other probably in the beginning and why we ended up in Spook is because I think that—which maybe is also not happening 15 years from then—there is a way that back then, there was a way that even your identity could be flattened, right? Like you're Puerto Rican, which means that you are like a lot of things, right? One of those things like, one of it's like we're both diasporic people, right? But that's one of the things that I think a lot of people would not necessarily think is like a kinship between us, but like I've seen pictures of Justin's cousins. I know I'm giving Primo over here. Like I know what I'm doing. And like that's one way that I think that our relationship feels like, like we just felt like kin when we first met because of that. I think that there's just a lot of ways that in a lot of spaces in this country, you're just not allowed to like have all of those parts of you in the room because people just don't understand it or they do, but they just don't want you to be that also.  Justin: It's not convenient.  Angela: Right. Which is why I was like, of course, Jason would ask you and I to be in Spook, which is a magazine that's a black literary magazine. Cause Jason gets it. Shout out to Jason again.  Justin: I can't believe he's moving to L.A., that's so exciting.  Angela: Supposedly like any day now, he's just gonna arrive. There's just ways that when you find your people, you don't have to always separate these parts of you and you don't always have to keep reminding them also, they sort of understand. But also parts of you change obviously and the way that you feel about your identity changes and your people will embrace that and keep, you know, keep making space for that too. Justin: Making space.  Annie: We'll be back in a moment with Angela and Justin. Lito: (42:22) Hey Lit Fam, we hope you're enjoying our conversation with Justin and Angela. We are quite awed by their thoughtful discussion and moved by their deep love for each other and their art. If you love what we're doing, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much to continue bringing you great conversations like this week, after week. Thank you for listening. Annie: (42:59.178) Back to our interview with Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy.  Lito: Justin, you have your sophomore book. How do you feel about it? Are you going to write a sequel for We the Animals like you talked about at one point? Angela, same question. Are there sequels coming forth for you, Angela, to Turner House, or are you moving on to something else? Or you sort of briefly mentioned another book about, uh, I remember you mentioning at some point a book about friends, four female friends, if I remember correctly. Anyways, what's coming next?  Annie: Yeah, and I wanna know about the dreaded second novel because I feel like that's where I'm at. I feel like that's where a lot of writers get stuck. Jutin: Second novel's awful. I mean, you think the first one's bad. You think it takes everything that you have inside of you and then you're like, oh, I've gotta do it again. And yeah, I don't know. I really had a very hard time with it. And I mean, nobody knows better than Angela. I really, really didn't feel like I was up to the task. I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew I wanted to kind of change the way I write and be a different kind of writer, but I just felt like I was falling on my face.  Even after it was done and out until like last week, I was just, I just felt anxiety about it, and I felt really neurotic and I was being really neurotic. And I remember the other night we were hanging out and drinking and maybe there was some mushroom chocolate involved. I was just, like I was just on my bullshit and Angela was just like stopped and she was just like, What is it gonna take to make you happy? Like what is it gonna take? Like look around. And it was like, it was a really good intervention. But then it also led to this conversation about happiness, right? And about like whether that is the goal, right? Like feeling kind of tortured and, and feeling like this gap between what you want for your book and your own capabilities. And that never goes away. You just live in this, in this torturous phase. And like, maybe it's about just coming to acceptance with that, rather than striving for happiness. I don't know. But it's still ringing in my ear. What is it gonna take?  Lito: It's a great question.  Angela:   Maybe some projection, I don't know, on my part.  I am still working on that novel. It's due at the end or at the beginning of next year. It's gonna come out in 2025. You know, God willing. And... similarly the second novel, I think it depends on your disposition, but I think both of us are very interested in and task ourselves with having real skin in the game with what we right. That means sometimes you got to figure out where you get that skin from.  Lito: There's only so much.  Angela: Like, if you played yourself for the first book, then it's gonna take a while. And when I think about, like, when I try to count for the years, I don't know I could have done it any quicker. Like, I just don't know. And I don't think that's gonna be the case for every book, but I do think between that first and that second, especially, were you 30? Where were you? I was 30, yeah. And then I was 30, too. I was 30 also when my book came out. You're just a baby.  You're just a baby.  Lito: Do you fall into the trap of comparing yourself to other people? Well, they wrote a book in two years and I— Justin:  (47:07) Yeah, sure. I mean, I also like compare myself to people who took longer like that feels good. That feels good.  Angela: Listen, I'm like Deborah Eisenberg. Just a banger every decade. That's it. That's all I owe the world. A banger a decade. Lito: A banger a decade. I like that. I like comparing myself to Amy Clampitt, who wrote her first collection of poetry, like in her 70s or something and had some success.  Justin: I generally wish people would slow down. I mean, I get that sometimes there's just like an economic imperative, right? But if you're lucky enough that, I don't know, you get a teaching job and you can slow down, why not slow down, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there are a lot of books in this world. And the books that somebody spent a lot of time over, whether or not they are my tastes—I'm just so appreciative of the thoughtfulness that went in.  You can feel it, right? That somebody was really considering what they're building versus dashing it off. They should slow down, if they can.  Angela: But I also feel like we need both kinds. There are people who I appreciate their books, their kind of time capsules of just like, this is the two years, this is where I was. I think of Yiyun. We need an Yiyun Li and we need an Edward P. Jones. Edward P. Jones, you're gonna get those books when you get the books. And Yiyun Li, every couple years, you're gonna get something that, to me, I still, they still feel like really good books, but they're also just like, this is where she is right here, and I respect it and I appreciate it. Everybody can't be one or the other, you know?  Justin: You're right, you're right, you're right. It's much fairer.  Annie: She's someone who, I mean, you know, seems to have changed so much even within that time period. And we had her on a couple of episodes ago and yeah, she's just on fire. She's amazing.  Justin: (49:06) And people speed up as well, right? Because her first couple of books, there were big gaps. And then same thing with like Marilynne Robinson, right? She had massive gaps between books. And then suddenly it starts to speed up. And they're coming out every year, every two years. Yeah. Annie: It's the mortality.  Lito: Well, and life, well, I think lifestyle too, right? Like what you do, how busy you are and what you do out in the world. Like going out and meeting people and being gay in the world, that takes up time.  Annie: And your work has had other lives too. I mean, I'm thinking about how We the Animals was adapted to film in that beautiful, intimate portrait. And I know, you know, Angela, you've been working with HBO and some projects as well. I'm just, just wondering if you want to talk about your work in these other media, how it's been, and even thinking about the strikes, right? Like the WGA-SAG strikes and how that has been on the ground too.  Angela:  Very happy that the strike is over. Solidarity to our SAG-AFTRA brothers and sisters still out there. I passed them on the way here on Sunset. I did honk, wish I was out there today. But I think that for me, it's just like a bonus. Like I, especially now, there's a way that right now writers will say things that are a little snobby like, Oh, I could never be in a writer's room, the group project, man. But like when now that I know so many TV writers living here and I've met so many over the past 146 days on the line, I realized that it is, you just have to be so nimble and agile and you have to also be so not precious about story. But no less smart. A lot of things might end up on TV dumb, but I don't want to blame the writers for that. Now that I really have a real understanding of just how the sausage is made and just how big of like a game of telephone it is—and how much you have to relinquish control because at the end of the day it's like you're making this text, it's literary, but it's also like an instruction manual. It's a completely different way to think about writing. And I don't know how long I live in LA or how many like of those kind of projects I will do but I'm really grateful. And one reason I'm really grateful is because doing those projects and having those years where people thought I wasn't doing anything, but I was actually writing so much and like doing so many revisions.  It helped me realize that there is a way that I blame MFAs for making us like feel very siloed. And like, if you're supposed to be a fiction writer, that's the only thing that you do that's like an output that anyone cares about. But it's so new—like, how many screenplays did Joan Didion write? Like James Baldwin wrote screenplays. Before, it was just like, you're writing, you're writing. Like it's all, it all is the job. And I think every time a poet friend of mine like puts out a novel, sends it to me, read, sends it for me to read—first off, they usually are very good. But then also I'm just like, yes, fiction writers, I think, I don't know who did it. I blame graduate programs, but they have put themselves in this small box. Justin: But yeah, I mean, it's like the MFA, a lot of them feel like teacher training programs and that the next step is teaching. But if you don't want to teach the old models, definitely like you just write for TV. Angela: You write for film, you write for magazines, newspapers, you just do the thing. And that has felt very freeing to me, to just see meet more people who are doing that and also to allow myself to do that. Justin (52:49) Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the process of having my film—the book made into a film. I think I had an unusual experience with that. Like a lot of times the author is cut out or, you know, is not deferred to in any way, or nobody's inviting you in. I think because it was such a low budget film, and the director is just a really wonderful person who is incredibly collaborative.  He wanted me involved in every single part of it, and so I loved that. I think, I don't know, I think I might wanna adapt Blackouts for a play. I've been thinking about it lately. Angela: You should. I mean, in so many ways, it is kind of like a two-hander. Yeah. I could see it. Yeah.  Justin: A two-hander. Look at you ready to lingo. No, that's some biz lingo.  Lito: That's going to be the title of this podcast. It's a two-hander. How has art shaped your friendship? And I mean, art, like other genres, we've talked about getting out of the box of fiction, but what movies or art or music do you love to talk about or do you just talk about everything or anything that you're watching and how have other genres affected your work? Like, do you listen to music? Are you influenced by visual art?  Angela: You wanna talk about things you watch on television? You ready to come out in that manner?  Justin: No.  Lito: You watch lots of TV? No. Are you a Housewives person?  You're a Housewives watcher, aren't you?  Justin: Housewives is too highbrow for me. I have like a…I have a secret fetish that is mine. Angela: You have to keep some things for yourself. Justin: Yes. But it's just like, that's how I turn my brain off when my brain needs to be turned off.  Annie: I will wait another decade for that story. Justin: I also like culture and high art as well. You write about art a lot. You do profiles. Angela: I do. I wish I did it more. It's just everything, you know, takes time. I think for me, like when I think about—I just am learning different ways to make a life out of, you know, out of your mind and out of art. And one thing that I've learned when I talk to, like visual artists, particularly, is this idea—I think poets also have this—but fiction writers, a friend of mine actually, a poet, recently asked me, like, how does a fiction writer get a practice, like a practice of writing? Practicing their craft in a way that like a visual artist, you know, they go to the studio practice or poet might have a practice. And I don't believe necessarily that sitting down to write every, you know, three hours every day is the same thing. Because like if you don't know what you're writing, but I really do think that practice is more grounded in reading.  Justin: And reading, I think reading literature for sure, but also reading the world, right? And that's what you do when you go to an exhibit or you go to a museum or you go to a concert or whatever, right, you're like reading, you know, and you're reading the experience, you're reading for other things.  Lito: Is there anything you're both fans of that you both talk about a lot? Any artists or musicians or movies? Justin (56:26) You know, I think that we have some lowbrow sharing tastes. But I think that our highbrow, I don't know. We don't talk a lot about our pursuant— I think I'm into a lot of, like when I was looking at, when I was putting together Blackouts, I was looking at a lot of archival photos and like the photos of Carl Van Vechten, I just, I'm obsessed with…  I've been spending a lot of time with them, thinking about him and his practice. I think that, you know, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm like a whatever, what's that horrible term? Culture vulture?  Angela: I don't think that's what you wanna say. But I know what you mean, yeah.  Justin: Yeah, I am democratic in my tastes. I'm just like, I like everything. We don't have a lot of shared tastes, I don't think.  Angela: Um... No?  Justine: No.  Annie:  I sort of love that. I mean, it, um, the friendship, belies, that, you know, it's only a bonus in that way. I think Lito and I also have very different tastes. There's something kind of lovely about that. Lito: I remember Annie making fun of me for not being hardcore enough in my taste in hip-hop. Annie:    I guess we're putting our dirt out there too.  Lito:   We'll be right back with the Lightning Round. Annie:   Ooh, Lightning Round. Annie: (58:12) Thank you both for talking with us today. This was really wonderful. We really feel the honesty and warmth in your friendship and we're so appreciative that you're sharing that with us today and with all of our LitFriends. We're excited for both your books and we're so grateful you spent the last hour with us.  Angela: That was a pleasure.  Justin: Thank you. Lito: All right, we're gonna we— wrap up the podcast with a Lightning Round, just a few questions. We will ask the question and then I guess we'll do it this way. When I ask the question, Angela, you can answer. And when Annie asks the question, Justin, you answer first. Sorry, first answer first. You're both going to answer the question. What is your first memory?  Angela:  My sister roller skating through sprinklers and falling and hitting her head. Justin: I literally have no idea. I, yeah, I don't know. It's a blackout.  Angela: How many times have you said that?  Lito:  Very on brand.  Angela: You've had a long book tour. Justin: I'm practicing.  Annie: Who or what broke your heart first?  Angela: Is it too deep to say my daddy? I know.  Justin: I was going to say my daddy.  Angela: That's why we're friends.  Justin: I know. It's so sad.  Angela: (59:37) Daddy issues.  Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history?  Angela: Toni Morrison.   Justin: Yeah, maybe Manuel Puig. He seemed really cap and hilarious. And also a brilliant genius.  Angela: I need Toni Morrison to tell me how to raise my child. And to still write books. Someone help me. Annie: What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next, maybe something collaborative or something different or a story they haven't told yet?  Justin: I mean, I think I would love to see you actually write something kind of ekphrastic. Like I'd love to see you write about art. I love when you write about art. I love your thoughts about art and art makers. So maybe, like, a collection of essays about culture. I'd love that. Angela: Besides this two-handed, this play, which I would love for you to write. Maybe there's more, I mean, there's more voices in the book than two, though. So it doesn't have to be. Justin is a poet. I have said this since the beginning. I'm ready for this collection.  Justin: Never occurred to me in my life. Angela:   That is not true.  Justin:   Well, writing a collection. Angela:   Okay, well, I would love for you to write a collection of poetry.  Justin:   Maybe I will. Maybe you just gave me permission, as the children say.  Angela:   Mm-hmm. I know.  Lito: If you could give any gift to your LitFriend without limitations, what would you give them?  Angela: I would give him a house with a yard and a pool.  Justin: That's what I want.  Angela: In a city he wants to live in. That's the key.  Lito: That's the hard part. Justin:  (01:01:35) Um, I would give Angela time to be with her thoughts and her craft. I guess what does that involve?  Angela:   This is because I call myself a busy mom all the time.  Justin: You are a busy mom. Angela: (01:02:08) Thank you, that's a nice gift. Time is the best.  Justin: I mean, it's not as good as a house with a pool.  Angela: I know, because I can use my time as wisely as possible and yet—no pool. Lito: Well, that's our show. Annie & Lito: Happy Friendsgiving! Annie: Thanks for joining us, Lit Fam. Lito:   We'll be back next week with our guests, Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth. Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.  Lito:   And I'm Lito Velázquez.  Annie:   Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton. Lito:   Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.  Annie:   Lizette Saldaña is our marketing director.  Lito:   Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.  Annie:   And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez. This was LitFriends, Episode One.

Back in the 80s, literary agent Susan Golomb plucked Jonathan Franzen's manuscript from her slush pile. They've worked together ever since. She founded the Susan Golomb Literary Agency in 1988 with Franzen as her first client, and joined Writers House in 2015. Susan represents other notables such as Glen David Gold, William T. Vollmann, Rachel Kushner, Imbolo Mbue, Angie Kim, and Nell Zink. She joined me to talk about the state of publishing and how it's changed, where A.I. is taking the industry, what she looks for in her clients, query letter dos and don'ts, why comp titles frustrate her, her feelings about MFAs, and much more. Along the way, we referenced two articles. The first, a recent New Yorker article about how changes in the publishing industry impact writers. And the second, an essay her client — Vauhini Vara — wrote about her own experiences with artificial intelligence. For more information on Writers on Writing and additional writing tips, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. We're also excited to announce the opening of our new bookstore on bookshop.org. We've stocked it with titles from our guests, as well as some of our own personal favorites. By purchasing through the store, you'll support both independent bookstores and our show. New titles will be added all the time (it's a work in progress). Finally, on Spotify you can listen to an album's worth of typewriter music like what you hear on the show. Look for the artist, Just My Type. Email the show at writersonwritingpodcast@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. (Recorded on November 3, 2023) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Host: Marrie Stone Music and sound editing: Travis Barrett (Stream his music on Spotify, Apple Music, Etc.)

Today's guest is feminist noir crime writer Halley Sutton. She wrote the first draft of her debut novel, The Lady Upstairs, while getting her MFA at Otis College of Art and Design in Los Angeles. So we got into the pros and cons of MFAs for writers. And we also talk book #2 and how that's different since Halley's currently in the home stretch with her second novel, The Hurricane Blonde. Halley shared how Pitch Wars helped her first book find its footing, how she turned a rejection letter into an agent, the importance of a midpoint, and other sage advice for fledgling writers. Follow Halley on Twitter @halley_sutton and Instagram @halleysutton25.Order Halley's new novel The Hurricane Blonde, which the NYTimes called "enthralling."Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a new podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcomeSUBSCRIBE TO THE NEW BLEEDERS YOUTUBE CHANNEL FOR FULL-LENGTH INTERVIEWS. https://www.youtube.com/@bleederspodcastThe Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram @courtneykocak. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.Hey writers! Trying to build your platform, but feeling a little overwhelmed, intimidated, or just plain lazy?⁠ I'm teaching a writer platform workshop through Write or Die Magazine and Chill Subs just for you on October 14th! In this 2.5-hour intensive, I will talk you through how to build a platform using podcasts, newsletters, social media, and more — and no, you don't need to start your own podcast. It recorded if you can't make it in-person, and you'll get a PDF of resources post-class. Sign up here: https://www.chillsubs.com/writeordie/workshops/how-to-build-platform-for

It was the summer of acronyms based on the major trends that Digiday reported on over the past four months: MFAs (made-for-advertising sites) became a pain point in programmatic advertising circles. Publishers and marketers started experimenting with generative AI technology and debating over its uses. The SAG-AFTRA (actors' union) and WGA (writers' union) went on strike. Many publishers started prioritizing ARPU (average revenue per user) in their subscription businesses. Altogether, those letters spelled a busy summer for publishers and marketers alike. On the latest episode of the Digiday Podcast, editors Kayleigh Barber and Tim Peterson recap the happenings from the summer and how those trends are likely going to impact the back half of 2023.

Advertisers can block wildfire news, but should we? The liberation of MFAs has begun. Threads is set to go Desktop. A huge glitch on X over the weekend. And the legal ruling marketers have been waiting for has arrived..

Julie Schumacher is the author of nine novels, including five for younger readers. Three of those adult novels follow Jason Fitger, an English professor at an obscure midwestern liberal arts college known as Payne University. Dear Committee Members, The Shakespeare Requirement and, now, The English Experience all shine satirical light on academia and our cultural shift away from the humanities. Julie joins Marrie Stone to talk about the state of satire and how she was able to satirize a profession she's still working in (and the people involved in that profession). She also discusses the challenges and constraints she sets up for herself when writing, handling a big cast of characters, using letters and essays in fiction, and how she organizes her written notebooks. They also discuss Julie's thoughts on MFAs, turning real life events into fiction, and much more. For more information on Writers on Writing and additional writing tips, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. (Recorded on August 9, 2023) Host: Barbara DeMarco-Barrett Co-Host: Marrie Stone Music and sound editing: Travis Barrett

In this episode I interview Tim McCool. He is most recently a pencil artist and he runs the gallery Good Luck Have Fun with his wife Kira. We talk about MFAs, art residencies, and how living a car-free lifestyle inspires his art. Find the artist https://timmccool.com/Tim McCool InstagramGood Luck Have Fun GalleryThe Contemporary - art classes   References Continuing education program at RISD ICOS - gallery and art collective  Joyce Ganlen paper artist Prisma colored pencils Fibra Castell colored pencils Legion paperStrathmore mixed media paperDaniel Johnson, how are you?Austin artist accountantsBig mediumRoom 68SMFA The Contemporary Austin - art classes Procreate - digital painting appRocket Money - app Concept animals - Instagram account Per Adolfsen - pencil artistBouldin Creek Café24 DinerVeracruz tacosEdward Monk - artistMegan Hildebrand - artist Peter Abrami - artist Find me, Bri Landry Instagram creative_moneyatxIf you liked the show please rate and review. 

Our guest today is playwright-turned-screenwriter, Bixby Elliot. If you are curious about making the move from one creative endeavour to another, then this is the episode for you! We chat about the transition from writing for the stage to writing for the screen. We discuss graduate schools and MFAs in writing. If you want to apply for Julliard's playwriting program, have at it.  This is the UCLA screenwriting program Saeed attended.  We also talk about working jobs outside of writing and how the skills you garner working in the corporate or retail world can benefit your writing career.  More info on Bixby's “Finish The Draft” accountability classes and coaching here. Follow Bixby on Instagram and TikTok.  Amy Berryman's Intuitive Playwriting class for actors and other creatives who want to write plays. Recommendations: Stephen King's “On Writing” The Cut Land of the Giants Podcast: “Dating Games” Be sure you are subscribed to 2 Writers Talking Shit so you don't miss an episode!

Are you curious how writing can foster healing, which practices you might try, and how to protect your well-being if you tackle difficult memories?Joining today's conversation is Rebecca Evans, a memoirist, poet, essayist, and professor of creative non-fiction. In this episode, you'll discover how Rebecca uses creative writing and journaling not only to reconnect with herself daily but also to find purpose in her traumatic experiences. You'll also learn how to set up a safety dismount practice for those emotionally difficult writing sessions. And you'll hear how journaling helped Rebecca to connect with her struggling teenager. Topics discussed in this episode: Bookending our days with journalingLosing the use of her hands for yearsSafely dismounting from writing as therapyThe power of funding your voiceConnecting with our kids via journalsHow art informs life, and life informs artThe challenges of staying intentionally presentBeing open to exploring someone else's POVFavorite booksAbout Rebecca: Rebecca Evans is a memoirist, poet, and essayist. In addition to writing, she teaches Creative Nonfiction at Boise State University and mentors high school girls in the juvenile system. In her spare time, she co-hosts a radio program, Writer to Writer, offering a space for writers to offer tips on craft and life. Rebecca is also disabled, a Veteran, a Jew, a gardener, a mother, a worrier, and more. She has a passion for sharing difficult stories about vulnerability woven with mysticism. She's earned two MFAs, one in creative nonfiction, the other in poetry, both from the University of Nevada, Reno at Lake Tahoe. She lives in Idaho with her sons, her Newfies, and her Calico.Connect w/ Rebecca: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rebeccawrites33 Facebook: https://facebook.com/rebeccawrites YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhPAJcZV0CEtlCwr_UuMvDuQIm8-UW_ME Get her books: Tangled by Blood: A Memoir in Verse: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1957799080 When There Are Nine: https://www.moontidepress.com/books Links to her essays, poems, and more: Website: https://rebeccaevanswriter.com/published-work/ Books discussed during the show: The Warrior of Light, by Paulo CoelhoCome the Slumberless to the Land of Nod, by Traci BrimhallThe Book of Nightmares, by Galway KenkThe City in Which I Love You, by Li-Young LeeThe Alchemist, by Paulo CoelhoJude the Obscure, by Thomas HardyAll the Light We Cannot See, by Anthony DoerrLemon, by Kwon Yeo-sunGarlic Ballads, by Mo YanThe Monster at the End of This Book, by Jon StonePeanut Butter and Brains, by Joe McGeeMoby-Dick, by Herman MelvilleFree your creative self too. Download your free copy of my guide, 5 Steps to Help You Start Writing Today, at https://lifebeyondparenting.com/5-steps-start-writing. Let's connect via my Facebook group, Parents Who Write, at https://www.facebook.com/groups/parentswhowrite.

In this episode, author Michael Leali discusses middle grade novels, low-residency MFAs, resonating with young readers, using notecards for developmental edits, tackling big topics in books for kids, staying true to the voice of young people, the importance of humor, what young readers are interested in, how to battle book bans and protect communities, and valuing your own story.   Michael Leali https://michaelleali.com/   Stories Matter Foundation https://www.storystudiochicago.org/

Today, for Episode Five of Season Five, I'm talking with Janice Obuchowski and William Pei Shih. Janice and William first met as scholars at the 2017 Bread Loaf Writers' Conference and now continue to admire and support one another's work.Janice Obuchowski is the author of The Woods, a short story collection that won the prestigious John Simmons Short Fiction Award and was published by the University of Iowa Press in 2022. More stories have appeared or are forthcoming in Electric Literature, Alaska Quarterly Review, Gettysburg Review, Conjunctions, and elsewhere. She holds an MFA from the University of California, Irvine and lives in Middlebury, Vermont.William Pei Shih's short stories have appeared or are forthcoming in The Best American Short Stories 2020, McSweeney's Quarterly, The Asian American Literary Review, The Masters Review, Carve Magazine, and many others. William is a graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop with an MFA in Fiction. He lives in New York City and teaches at New York University.Today's topics include getting MAs and MFAs, melding critical analysis and creative writing, balancing interiority and exteriority, drafting and revising, swerving between literary genres, crafting sentences and structures, as well as exploring rural and urban landscapes in short fiction.We are taking a short spring break. We'll be back Tuesday, April 11, with Episode 6.PWN's Debut Review is hosted by Project Write Now, a nonprofit writing studio. Learn more at projectwritenow.org.

In Episode 2, I'm joined by my friend and past colleague, Bryant Henderson Shea. Bryant and I met in Grad School, and we graduated from the University of Oregon with MFAs in 2017. Bryant is a great dancer and choreographer in addition to a fantastic dance educator both in the private sector and higher education. Throughout his dance career, Bryant has worked in many industries outside of dance, including his present endeavors working full time in the corporate world while residing in Alabama. When I asked about the "dance superpowers" he's discovered in the workplace outside of dance, he replied with a list of the following top three: - Collaboration - Empathic Leadership - Negotiation Skills We spend a good deal of time unpacking each of these superpowers, and we do so over big and bold glasses of red blends. During this episode, we each enjoy our own red blends: Estero Wine's 2020 Red Blend, and Edgefield Vineyard's 2018 Black Rabbit Red. Join us in episode 2 as we cheers to Bryant's list of dance superpowers that have brought him success in the workplace outside of dance! Follow Bryant on Facebook and Instagram.

Barack Obama called Jessamine Chan's The School for Good Mothers one of his favorite reads of 2022. The NYT bestseller comes out in paperback on February 7. Every year, thousands of children are removed from their parents' custody by the state, often for good reasons, but not always. Set in a dystopian future not so far from now, The School for Good Mothers follows Frieda's tortured journey after losing her daughter following “a very bad day.” Jessamine joins Marrie Stone to talk about the 20 years she spent writing before the book was published, and how one inspiring day of writing changed everything (spoiler alert: don't try this at home). She talks about writing in longhand, over-writing and learning to cut, how visiting her setting changed the feel of the book, naming her characters and other craft insights. She also discusses MFAs and writing residencies, finding an agent, the long editing process after the book was sold and more. For more information on Writers on Writing and additional writing tips, visit our Patreon page. To listen to past interviews, visit our website. (Recorded on January 25, 2023)  Host: Barbara DeMarco-BarrettCo-Host: Marrie StoneMusic and sound design: Travis Barrett

Intro:  Let Me Run This By You: 12 Strange Questions (TM) version 2.0Interview: We talk to television star Nick Reynolds about West Virginia, Marshall University, Penn State, MFAs, waiting for 10 years to star on , Search Party, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, being an only child, and almost offending every single cast member of Law and Order SVU, and being a character actor.

What you'll learn in this episode: How synesthesia—the ability to hear colors and see music—has impacted William's work Inside William's creative process, and why he never uses sketches or finishes a piece in one sitting Why jewelry artists should never scrap a piece, even if they don't like it in the moment The benefits of being a self-taught artist, and why art teachers should never aim to impart their style onto their students How a wearer's body becomes like a gallery wall for jewelry About William Harper Born in Ohio and currently working in New York City, William Harper is considered one of the most significant jewelers of the 20th century. After studying advanced enameling techniques at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Harper began his career as an abstract painter but transitioned to enameling and studio craft jewelry in the 1960s. He is known for creating esoteric works rooted in mythology and art history, often using unexpected objects such as bone, nails, and plastic beads in addition to traditional enamel, pearls, and precious metals and stones. His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the American Museum of Crafts, the Cleveland Museum of Art, and the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. A retrospective of his work, William Harper: The Beautiful & the Grotesque, was exhibited at the Cleveland Institute of Art in 2019. Additional Resources: William's Instagram Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Rather than stifle his creativity, the constraints of quarantine lockdown and physical health issues helped artist-jeweler William Harper create a series of intricate jewels and paintings imbued with meaning. After 50+ years as an enamellist, educator and artist in a variety of media, he continues to find new ways to capture and share his ideas. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his creative process; why he didn't want his art students to copy his style; and why he never throws a piece in progress away, even if he doesn't like it. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. I'd like to welcome back one of today's foremost jewelers, William Harper. To say he is a jeweler leaves out many parts of him. He's a sculptor, an educator, an artist, an enamellist, and I'm sure I've leaving out a lot more. His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the American Museum of Crafts, the Museum of Fine Arts, and most recently he had a one-person show, “The Beautiful & the Grotesque,” at the Cleveland Institute of Art. I can't do justice to all of his work, so I'll let him try to do some. Bill, welcome to the program. William: Thank you. It's great to see you again. Sharon: It's so great to see you after everything we've gone through. Give us an overview of how you got into jewelry and enameling, your art, everything. How did you get into it? William: One of the questions you gave me to ponder ahead of time was if I was interested in jewelry when I was a child. I was not even interested in jewelry when I was in college, except for taking one course to make the wedding rings for my now ex-wife, but that was it. A few years later, I got a phone call from Florida State University asking me if I would like to interview for a job teaching jewelry and metals and enameling. I wrote back and said, “I don't think I'm the person you want, because I don't know very much about jewelry.” So, I said no. Two days later, they called me again, and I told them the same thing. Then two days later, they called me again and I said, “Let me think about this. You're on the quarter system. Are you willing to pay me for one quarter, when I'm not there and I'm cramming on how to teach jewelry?” The head of the department said, “That sounds like a great idea. As long as you can come three weeks ahead of the students, we'll be happy.” I'm basically self-taught except for watching people at a few workshops. I think being self-taught is a very valuable tool because I was not chained to the style or techniques of any major professor, which happens so much, especially to students coming out with MFAs. For years, their work will look pretty much like what their instructor was doing. I didn't have that. I was my own instructor, and I was able to play out, in my 55-year career, how to do what I saw vaguely in my mind. I should say at this point, I had synesthesia—I could never say it correctly—which is the ability to hear music and see colors or see a painting and hear music. I'm blessed with that. I used to think it was a chain around my neck, but I appreciate the fact that I can do something that very few people can do. Sharon: You mean you see a painting or you hear music and you think about how that translates into art or jewelry? I'll call what you do jewelry. William: Yeah. The strangest one is I can smell an odor, whether it's bad or something overly sweet, like old lady rose perfume or cigars, and I have an instant reaction where I see—I don't see things; I sense things in my mind. That's the way it works. Sharon: You've talked about the dichotomy in your work. Does that play into it? William: Oh, absolutely. I've always been in opposites. Long before I was doing jewelry, I had a very successful enamel career. I would usually make two different objects in the same physical format, but one would deal with sensations that are opposite of the other, such as light and dark, good and evil, colorful and noncolorful. That informed that work. Now, after all the years doing jewelry exclusively, I try to build diametrically opposed ideas into the forms. You mentioned the exhibition the Cleveland Institute of Art gave me a few years ago, “The Beautiful & the Grotesque.” The title of that show epitomized what I'm usually doing in my work. Sometimes it's not always obvious to the viewer, but it serves as a jumping point for me. If I can plug the catalogue— Sharon: Please do. William: Cleveland did a beautiful catalogue. Everything that was in the show was there. If you're interested in it, it's $25 plus $9.95 shipping. It adds up to $34.95. To get it, you can contact me at my email address, which is ArtWilliamHarper@mac.com. Sharon: ArtWilliamHarper@mac.com. William: Yes. Sharon: We'll have a thumbnail of that on the website so you can click on it and order it. William: Good, you've seen the catalogue. Can you vouch for how beautiful it is? Sharon: It's a beautiful catalogue. It has everything, the jewelry, the boxes, all of the art. When I say boxes, I'm thinking of the ones that are really art pieces. You said you think a lot of art is about thinking. What do you think about when you're doing your art? William: It often starts way before I actually begin making anything. That's a hard question to answer. For instance, I've done several series based on other artists, all of whom were painters. I prefer painting to jewelry right now, I have to say. But in terms of these influences, I would look at the work, for instance the work of Jean Dubuffet. He has incredibly beautiful, messy patterns that run— Sharon: Who? William: Jean Dubuffet. Sharon: Oh, Dubuffet, yes. William: I have loved his work for many, many years, and I have known that he was the instigator of what is called the art brut movement, which is art that is made by people that not only are not highly educated in universities or art departments, but they might have some kind of physical disability or mental disability, where they express themselves in these absolutely gorgeous, out of this world ways, not like any professional artist would do. Dubuffet collected those and was instrumental in having a museum set up—I think it was in Switzerland; I should know that—of this work. Talking about dichotomy, I wanted to catch that quality of not knowing what I was doing along with my sophisticated technique and taste. So, I did this series. I think there are 10 pieces. In order to do it, as I got into the third or fourth piece, I decided I wanted to write an essay about what the series meant to me being put into this catalogue. So, I gave it the name Dubu. Sharon: How? William: D-U-B-U. I came up with idea that a Dubu is a fantastical creature that can infect your mind and cause you to do absolutely glorious things. It was just something I made up in my mind. I should also say that I don't start a piece and finish it immediately. I don't even know where I'm going when I start a piece. I simply go into the studio and start playing around with the gold. I know that sounds silly, that somebody can play around with something as precious as gold. But in doing so, there's another dichotomy. I'm able to come up with forms that I would never be able to otherwise. At this point, I should mention I do absolutely no sketches, diagrams, or beginning things on paper to guide me. I simply allow the materials to guide me. I trust in them and my manipulation of them that they will start leading me to see what I want to be after. Sometimes these are small enamel pieces. Sometimes they're more complex with gold pieces. Sometimes they're a consideration of how to use a stone or a pearl. As I'm making these things, I know I can't use them necessarily in piece number one. So, my idea is, “O.K., go to my idea for piece number two and follow the same format of making things, simply because they amuse me.” I don't take myself seriously while I'm doing these things. I think that's part of why they're successful. I should say one of the qualities that my work has been lauded for is being humorous without being funny, without being a caricature. I have found that is a rather rough road to travel, but I'm able to facilitate it somehow. Anyway, I have these pieces I made, piece number one and piece number two. I still want to play around with making, let's say, a different kind of cloisonné enamel that had been used in pieces one and two. At that point, after I have made things that could become three different pieces, I take what I like and finish piece number one. As often as not, I think of the title first, which I know is a rather strange way to go about it. But in thinking of a title, it helps me guide the quality of the personage I'm dealing with. So, I finished piece number one. I don't take anything away from it at that point. When I get to piece number two, I'd better start making things for piece number four. There's this manipulation where all the pieces start moving around on my desk. When I start seeing there is a conclusion in making each one successfully, I know I can stop. Often in that process, I paint myself into a corner. I don't know where I'm going, but actually that's the best part in terms of the quality of the piece, because it gives me the opportunity to really think about what I'm after. After I've contemplated that, I'm able to get out of the corner, and I do piece number two and piece number three. This is a process I've used my entire career. I've done a series dedicated to Jasper Johns which is very intellectual, because he's a very intellectual artist. I did a series on Fabergé. I don't really like Fabergé. I admire him, but I don't like him particularly. In my series, each brooch had an egg-shaped enamel part as a part of the physicality of the piece. One of the things I don't like about Fabergé is that his work was very dry. It's beautiful, but it's dry. It doesn't have any kind of emotion attached to it at all. It was perfect for the Russian nobility because they were decadent. They were inbred. They proceeded far too long in this sociological process. So, I changed it by having in each piece a little zip that went from the outside peripheral into the center, which was like a sperm getting to the egg and fertilizing it. That's how I dealt with that matter. I've also done a series on Cy Twombly, who is my favorite painter. I know people wonder how I can be influenced by his work, which I admire for its messiness. I wish I could do it. People either get Twombly or they don't. When I look at a group of Twombly pieces, I'll have an idea of how to start meshing these into the same process I mentioned before, with the Dubus. I think I did the Twomblys 25 years ago and they still look fresh. That's how my process works. Sharon: How do you know if you've hit a wall? If you say, “This isn't going to work. I'm going to put it in the junk pile”? William: I don't put things in junk piles. It's too expensive and the enamel is too precious. I just put the elements aside. I know if I'm doing a series of 10 pieces, or if I decide I want it to be 12 pieces—it's never more than 12 in a series—by the time I get to 10 or 12, I had better have come to a conclusion with all those pieces and not have left off too many elements. I just put those aside. I might use them again in four years, five years. My work is rather slow because I think a lot about it, and I don't have drawings to follow. I don't think of myself as a designer; I think of myself as an artist who makes jewelry. There's a difference. Sharon: Do you know before you start how many pieces will be in a collection? Do you say, “I'm going to make 10 pieces. They're going to be in the collection, and I have no idea what it is”? William: Yeah, I generally set a goal for myself. There are other pieces I do that I call knee play pieces. Knee plays come from music. Robert Wilson collaborated on a piece that is now an iconic gem called Einstein on the Beach. It was in five acts, which, if you think my work is unintelligible, this work was almost totally unintelligible. But it appealed to a certain kind of mind as being exquisite. Between each act, without scenery or costumes or anything like that, there were groups of instrumentalists and vocalists who would improvise. With the knee play pieces, it's not determined what the music and the vocalization is going to be. The vocalization is not consisting of words; it's consisting of almost primal sounds that are put together with a cadence of Phillip Glass music. The reason they call it knee play is that they connect the acts. As soon as this group of pieces, the knee play music, is over from act one, they will usually suggest some kind of music or situation you're going to see in act two. That's sort of a meandering, intellectual approach, but I really like the idea. In my career, I haven't just made series. I've often done isolated pieces, and I would do those in order to open up thought processes I could use to get to the next series. Does that make sense? Sharon: Yes. Is that how you got to the collection you did during lockdown quarantine?

Today Alexa is joined by two guests from across the pond in New York City. They are the duo who founded The Voice Collective, a voice studio from which they deliver coaching, specialising in body voice connection, musical theatre, pop, rock, rough vocal effects, and cross genre. Cassi Mikat and William Pazdziora are on Singing Teacher's Talk this week to tell you about the benefits of cross-genre training. KEY TAKEAWAYS In general, cross-genre training means taking a singer who is comfortable in a particular genre and helping them find their footing in a new one. The training can completely vary depending on the singer you have in front of you.  A singer who learns to work across multiple genres is more hireable and will usually find it easier to find work as a singer. Also a  student who explores more types of singing can find more of who they are and where they fit. All singers need to practise stretching their chords. They need to practise balancing registration. There is no genre that doesn't require you to have an understanding of your voice and your technique. And there's no genre that does it better than other genres. As a voice teacher you don't need to be specially trained in a specific genre, you just need an understanding of vocal function which can help you make all the sounds that you need and want to make. BEST MOMENTS‘I love that. The neutral voice, finding out what feels the most authentic'‘As a voice teacher, I'm interested in making sure all of my students have all of the options'‘We can get a little bit tripped up in defining contemporary and musical theatre singing by putting a checklist on it' EPISODE RESOURCES BAST Training Guest Website: cassimikat.com williampazdziora.com Social Media: Instagram: @voice.collective TikTok: @voice.collective  Relevant Links & Mentions:  Boston's Conservatory Professional Pedagogy Professional Workshop: https://bostonconservatory.berklee.edu/extension-programs/vocal-pedagogy-professional-workshop Singing Teachers Talk Podcast: Ep. 50 Managing ‘Pushy Parents' and Teaching ‘Legit' with Amelia Carr: https://open.spotify.com/episode/69p10R0n5FWT3OKlvmJdDO?si=d8ec53d26293409e Kristin Linklater: https://www.linklatervoice.com/ (Featured Song): Don't You Remember by Adele Singing Teachers Talk Podcast: Ep. 40 Integrated Skills: Teaching Singing to Dancers with Jennie Morton: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3fm53D7NcGWTmwzE3Sg2nM?si=5343dc5ef2d94892 ABOUT THE GUEST Cassi Mikat and William Pazdziora are the co-founders of The Voice Collective, a voice studio based in NYC (and across the country, online). Their mission at The Voice Collective is to bring collaborative, empowering, and elite voice training to singers everywhere who want to feel joy in their singing, free from limitations. Cassi and William met at Boston Conservatory, where they were a part of the inaugural class to complete their MFAs in Musical Theatre Vocal Pedagogy. There, they became quick friends, bonding over their similar philosophies for both life and the voice. Cassi and William both have extensive performance experience in regional theatres and entertainment venues across the United States and the globe. In addition to their MFAs, Cassi holds a Bachelor of Fine Arts from Wright State University in Acting with an emphasis in Musical Theatre, and William holds a Bachelor of Arts from Temple University in Theatre with a concentration in Musical Theatre and a Minor in Dance. William currently serves on the voice faculty at Berklee College of Music. Cassi and William both were selected to present at Boston Conservatory's Vocal Pedagogy Professional Workshop in 2022. Cassi presented on finding sustainability and authenticity in pop/rock singing alongside Dr. Jessye DeSilva. William's presentation was titled: "The Triple Threat Tango: Navigating Breath Strategies for Singers in Musical Theater."  Cassi and William both taught voice at The Boston Conservatory to Contemporary Theater Majors and aspiring Musical Theater Students as instructors for the Conservatory Musical Theater Dance Intensive. Together, Cassi and William have launched a social media campaign to help provide access to information, inspiration, and training for singing artists everywhere. ABOUT THE PODCASTBAST Training is here to help singers gain the knowledge, skills and understanding required to be a great singing teacher. We can help you whether you are getting started or just have some knowledge gaps to fill through our courses and educational events.Website: basttraining.comGet updates to your inbox: Click here for updates from BAST TrainingLink to presenter's bios: basttraining.com/singing-teachers-talk-podcast-biosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For this second episode of Season 2 Courtney chats with Jesse Butts about his two pursuits he is very much so qualified and unqualified for: Director level of Content Marketing and Podcast founder and host of the The Work Seminar, a podcast for people with liberal arts advanced degrees (MAs, MFAs, and PhDs, mostly) considering work outside of their fields of study without any career coaching experience or certifications. (does that sound at all familiar... Bueller?) Make a niche for yourself. Know your North Star. Develop a career that serves you and GO FOR IT even if you don't have the traditional background to do "it". Find Jesse: The Work Seminar Podcast LinkedIn Website Find Courtney: Email: ynqpod@gmail.com IG Website Twitter

Artist and Maiden LA Co-Founder Molly Schulman and Javier Proenza talk about how they went from relative obscurity to active members of the artist run scene in LA without having MFAs. From the Launch of Maiden LA in 2016 to the current ambitions of What's My Thesis? Javier and Molly discuss their good and bad experiences networking in the art world.

Compliance into the Weeds is the only weekly podcast that takes a deep dive into a compliance-related topic, literally going into the weeds to more fully explore a subject. In this episode, we deep dive into recent failures detected in the state of Wisconsin regarding cyber security risks around election integrity. Highlights include: The risks were uncovered. What is a material risk? Why Multi-Factor Authentication is important cyber security control. What are the consequences of a single point of failure? How and when should redefine a hazard? What does CISA say about MFAs? Resources Matt in Radical Compliance Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We love our sponsor SAFRAN EVERYDAY.WOMAN OWNED + OPERATED. Safran Everyday was created out of a desire to provide simple, beautiful, functional objects & thoughtful unisex jewelry for all gender expressions & walks of life.We can't recommend their Large Jewelry Holders enough! Sign up for their mailing list and receive 10% off your first order! SUPPORT PERCEIVED VALUE!www.patreon.com/perceivedvaluewww.perceivedvaluepodcast.com/how-to-support-donate/Instagram + Facebook: @perceivedvalueFind your Host:sarahrachelbrown.comInstagram: @sarahrachelbrownThe music you hear on Perceived Value is by the Seattle group Song Sparrow Research.All You Need to Know off of their album Sympathetic Buzz.Find them on Spotify!Don't forget to Rate AND Review us on iTunes!

In season five, episode nine of Gotham Writers' Inside Writing, host Josh Sippie talks with Daphne Palasi Andreadas about her journey as a writer. They discuss the balancing of short pieces and long, how a short story grew into a novel, and the pros and cons of MFAs. Links from the panelists: Daphne's website: https://daphnepalasiandreades.com/ Daphne's book: https://bookshop.org/books/brown-girls/9780593243428 Connect on social media! Daphne's Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaphnePalasiA Daphne's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daphnepalasia/?hl=en Gotham Writers' Twitter: https://twitter.com/gothamwriters Josh's Twitter: https://twitter.com/sippenator101

Let's go bad boys! Secure The Gag is back-back-back with the sweet Chicago comedy babe, Garrett Williams (Big Night, Please Stop Crying)!!!   Garrett and Nathan dive into a chat that covers Texas, Pokemon, and MFAs. They then get into Garrett's journey from Chicago to New York, comedy gigging, and the House of Gacci. Garrett then breaks down the start of his viral video madness and shares the process behind his popular comedy videos like “The Guy Who Records Sleep Sounds.” Get into it, yuh!! Secure The Gag is a queer comedy podcast hosted by comedian and writer, Nathan Pearson. Tune in every Monday as Nathan interviews funny queers about their infamous online videos, bits, and success.  Nathan Pearson is a comedian, actor, writer, and host of Secure The Gag based in Brooklyn, NY by way of Atlanta, GA. Recently, he was featured on HBOMax's Humans By Orientation platform and on the UCB Character's Welcome where his “Guy F**ks His Bully's Dad” sketch became a viral sensation. Online, Nathan has amassed a following on TikTok and has been featured in Vulture, Instinct, Queerty, Logo's NewNowNext, and more.  Secure The Gag is part of the WUSSY Podcast Network hosted by WUSSY Mag @wussymag Hosted by Nathan Pearson @nathankpearson Produced by Jon Dean @jondeanphoto Edited by Ryan Andrews @rtayrews Podcast Art created by Beardy Glasses @beardy.glasses Podcast Music by DJ Helix @1djhelix  Follow @SecureTheGag

Mona Monsour ( Playwright) THE VAGRANT TRILOGY will make its New York City debut in April 2022 at the Public Theater, directed by Mark Wing-Davey; the production was in technical rehearsals in March 2020 and was postponed due to Covid-19. UNSEEN will have its West Coast debut at Oregon Shakespeare Festival in spring 2022, directed by Evren Odcikin. WE SWIM, WE TALK, WE GO TO WAR premiered at SF's Golden Thread in 2018 (dir. Odcikin). THE VAGRANT TRILOGY was presented at Mosaic Theater in June 2018, (dir. Wing-Davey.) Of the trilogy: THE HOUR OF FEELING (dir. Wing-Davey) premiered at the Humana Festival at Actors Theatre of Louisville, and an Arabic translation was presented at NYU Abu Dhabi, as part of its Arab Voices Festival in 2016. URGE FOR GOING: productions at the Public Theater (dir. Hal Brooks) and Golden Thread (dir. Odcikin). THE VAGRANT was commissioned by the Public and workshopped at the 2013 Sundance Theater Institute. THE WAY WEST: Labyrinth (dir. Mimi O'Donnell); Village Theater (dir. Christina Myatt); Steppenwolf (dir. Amy Morton); and Marin Theatre Company (dir. Hayley Finn). Other credits: IN THE OPEN, for Waterwell, directed by James Dean Palmer, and ACROSS THE WATER, written for third-year MFAs at NYU (dir. Scott Illingworth). Mona was a member of the Public Theater's Emerging Writers Group. With Tala Manassah she has written FALLING DOWN THE STAIRS, an EST/Sloan commission. Their play DRESSING is part OF FACING OUR TRUTHS: SHORT PLAYS ABOUT TRAYVON, RACE AND PRIVILEGE, commissioned by the New Black Festival. Commissions include Playwrights Horizons and La Jolla Playhouse. 2020 Helen Merrill Award, 2012 Whiting Award. 2014 Middle East America Playwright Award, MacDowell Colony 2018, New Dramatists Class of 2020. Mona writes for NBC's New Amsterdam and is creating series for FlipNarrative and AMC International. BEGINNING DAYS OF TRUE JUBILATION, directed by Scott Illingworth and conceived with her company SOCIETY, was part of New Ohio's Ice Factory Digital Festival in summer 2020. In September 2020, Mona received the prestigious Kesselring Prize, awarded by the National Arts Club to one playwright a year. She was nominated by Seattle Rep for her play THE HOUR OF FEELING. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Intro: Leak It All, the gumbo of bad decisions.Let Me Run This By You: Overcoming insecurities, chasing hope, staying curious, and Marilyn Monroe.  Interview: A Maze by Rob Handel, Just Theatre, New College of Florida, Asolo Repertory Theatre, SF State, playwriting MFAs, Attempts on Her Life by Martin Crimp, Soho Rep, North Oakland, The Civilians, Yale, UCSD, Lincoln Center Directors Lab, underground poker games, the NYC Tombs, Playwrights Foundation, Annie Baker, Sam Hunter, Zakiyyah Alexander,  Soho Rep Writer Director Lab, Adam Bock, Shotgun Players, Anne Washburn, The Bacchae, Eureka Day, left wing anti-vaxxers, Ben Brantley, writing during the pandemic, a pilot about a tech start up run by altruistic vampires, Mike Schur, What We Do In The Shadows, Aurora Theatre Company.

Tavi Taylor Black and Christine Junge are the podcasters behind The Personal Element, a monthly discussion about one essay that both writers loved. On this episode, they take us through their podcasting process, and we discuss an essay from Cindy House's forthcoming collection "Mother Noise."A transcript and more podcast info are available on the episode page.About our guestsChristine Junge and Tavi Black met when they were working on their MFAs at Lesley University in the early 2000s. They became fast friends after sharing conversations about books, love, and life over meals in the cafeteria and drinks at the Lizard Lounge. Since graduating, they often read and critique each other's work. They are both really excited to be sharing The Personal Element podcast with listeners. Follow the podcast on Instagram or Facebook.More about ChristineChristine is currently shopping two novels to agents. She lives in San Jose, CA, with her husband and baby. She's also hard at work on her next book, which features a character dealing with debilitating anxiety. You can read Christine's essay, which we talk about in Season 1: Episode 3, Taking Control of My Body Image, which was originally published in Chicken Soup for the Soul. Find out more info about Christine on her website.More about TaviTavi lives on Vashon Island outside of Seattle with her husband, daughter, and a full household of pets. Tavi's debut novel with TouchPoint Press, Where Are We Tomorrow? is about four women working backstage on a rock tour. Her next projects are a historical fiction set in 1913 in Bar Harbor, Maine due out in January of 2023, and a middle-grade fantasy novel she wrote with her daughter. You can find out more about Tavi on her website or on Instagram. 

[My publisher] was like, "We always publish our essay collections in this size and people like it, because they can throw it in their bag." And as much as that frustrated me, they were right and they are right. And there are all those types of signifiers that let you know whether a book will be literary or practical or nonfiction or fiction. And those things as consumers, we code them and register them.Jen Winston (she/they) is a writer and bisexual whose work focuses on dating, queerness, and the millennial condition. They are the author of the critically-acclaimed book, GREEDY: NOTES FROM A BISEXUAL WHO WANTS TOO MUCH, which was just named a finalist for the 2022 Lammy Awards from Lambda Literary. Paper Mag wrote that GREEDY is “at once relatable, laugh-out-loud funny, and refreshingly illuminating,” and BuzzFeed named it a Best LGBTQ+ book of 2021, calling it “more insightful about identity than any book this year.”Jen currently lives in Brooklyn with their partner, dogs, and iPhone. You can follow Jen on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at @jenerous.In this conversation Jen and I discuss book marketing, including:-Working with a cover designer-Hiring a publicist-Designing a custom Instagram filter-Creating influencer packages-The differences Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok for marketing books-Reaching out to your niche audienceTRANSCRIPTBen Guest:Jen, thank you so much for coming on.Jen Winston:Yay. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.Ben Guest:So the big overview question, what are the fundamentals of good marketing for a book?Jen Winston:Ooh, I'm glad you asked that. Well, I'm going to tell you what my day job is, because this is a very unique time when I'm not going to get in trouble for it, because I have given my two weeks and I'm between jobs. So currently I work at Meta during the day as a creative director, an associate creative director, focusing on things related to the meta. I just gave my two weeks, and in May, I will be joining Lyft as their creative director of social media. So I've been focused in the creative and marketing world for quite some time.Jen Winston:I'm normally not allowed to talk about that when I'm also like technically "Promoting my book," but what are they going to do? Fire me? They can't, because I'm leaving. So it's a very exciting time to be able to say that on a podcast, but I think what makes good book marketing and what makes good marketing in general is marketing that takes on the position of the person who's seeing the marketing and asks, what could this mean to people. And with book marketing, you want to make that you don't assume people already know everything about your book or anything about your book for that matter.Jen Winston:I think it's really important to have the premise of your book distill down into a very succinct sense or two, and marketing can also shape the core idea of your book. And in my case, that's really what happened. I thought about bisexuality. I had recently come out and I was still ashamed of it. I felt like it was this binary identity that I didn't really support. Like I was starting to learn more about gender and I was like, "There are lots of genders." This feels like an identity that supports men and women, and I don't really like that, but I've always identified with this word. And then I started reading about bi-theory, bisexual, and I learned that bisexuality actually challenges all these types of binaries, including gender. It just requires a bit of a reframing of the way we think about it.Jen Winston:And so I wanted to make sure that I was like, "That's what I want to write a book about now that I really believe in bisexuality," because it's been something that's been true for me for so long that I've been ashamed of essentially. And I was able to suss that out with the target audience and be like, "If I'm a bisexual who has never seen a piece of content like this, there are probably other bisexuals who have never seen a piece of content like this." And I looked on TikTok and there were 10 million uses of the hashtag bisexual. And so I was like, "Okay, that's an audience that I should speak to." Like, those people need to be seen and they need art created for them. And that's why I wanted to make sure I put the word bisexual in the title.Jen Winston:And I talked a lot throughout the process about how are we going to reach that audience. And it was always confusing because we were like, "Do we want to put it in this books for in section?" Which is like a lot of times books for straight white women typically. And then we could also put in the LGBTQ section where people might not see it. And I was really torn on that because I really think it speaks to a lot of the challenges the bisexual community faces. It's like, "Are we gay? Or are we straight?" And the reality is that like we are bisexual. We are none of the above at all of the above at the same time. And so it was really challenging to create something that spoke to that audience and found them where they were.Jen Winston:One thing that I also learned throughout the process is that the cover has so much to do with how the book finds its audience, because whether we realize it or not, books are brands. It signals to us based on design and in the literary world, there are certain books that we can see are going to be like, whether it will be a self help book, we can see whether something will likely be a memoir. That's why my publisher wanted my book to be a paperback book because if it were a hard cover, it would be less clear that it was a memoir. They're-Ben Guest:It's interesting.Jen Winston:Yeah. They were like, "We always publish our essay collections in this size and people like it, because they can throw it in their bag." And as much as that frustrated me, they were right and they are right.Jen Winston:And there are all those types of signifiers that let you know whether a book will be literary or practical or nonfiction or fiction. And those things as consumers, we code them and register them. And I knew that my publisher wasn't going to market my book as a literary book. And I know that it's a long pretentious cycle to get marketed as a literary book. You have to have an MFA and you have to have a... No offense to people getting their MFAs, Ben. And you have to have... Yeah, you have to have a lot of degrees and you have to have published in the New Yorker and the New York Times and you got to have all the bylines and I didn't have any of that because I've had to work a full time job and I could never afford to pay for an MFA program.Jen Winston:And I still wanted people to recognize that my book was quality writing and that it contained valuable information. And also that it experimented with form a little bit, because a lot of the essays in my book do experiment with form. Like one is written as a doctor's diagnosis or like a clinical study, another's written as a screenplay. Another is an email exchange. And then the whole thing is a blend of social theory and memoir. And I was really striving for that and I wanted to give it this high brow approach. And so my publisher had designed some covers that, when they sent me the covers, it firmly positioned it in the realm of chicklet. And I was like, "Oh, this answers the question of where we're going to position the book." Oops, sorry, hit the mic. "This answers the question of where they want to position the book. They want to position it toward straight women at target. That's what they want." And yeah, there was one cover with cherries wearing panties or something. It was like-Ben Guest:I still remember that from our first conversation.Jen Winston:Oh yeah.Ben Guest:It's so f*****g stupid.Jen Winston:Well, I will hand it to the designer because it's a really challenging design brief to all the earlier things I was saying. I didn't want a bisexual flag, but there's also not a lot you can do [inaudible 00:06:59] signal to this community. And so it was huge challenge. And I knew I needed to bring in like big guns essentially to solve that challenge and also to help position the book is a bit more literary. And so I found a designer who I love, whose work I loved on Instagram, his name's Rodrigo Corral. He just put together like a montage of all the covers he's designed. And I was like, "Oh my God," he designs like so many Chuck [Palahniuk 00:07:25] covers, just so many bestsellers, This Is How You Lose Her. So many iconic covers have come from his mind.Jen Winston:And I DM him totally unsure of what would happen. And he said he would, I had to pay him, but that was the best money that I spent because it helped my book. It helped people be proud to hold my book up on Instagram and for a physical copy of a book that is so, so important. And it's honestly important for an ebook too. I think, where I doing it over again, I would want to think more about how the cover plays in an e-book environment, especially for readers that don't have that view in black and white. That's how important the cover is. You want to think of it at every single phase. I also didn't like love how my cover collapsed to an audio book style. It was so built for the paper that it just didn't really play as well everywhere else.Jen Winston:And even when we tried to put a quote on the cover, we couldn't figure it out. So we ended up putting it on the back. But I think, yeah, the cover was such a huge part of the marketing. And then I let it inform this overarching approach and campaign and fun that we were going to have with the style. And so I worked with a friend, even though I'm a creative director, by trade. I hired a friend of mine, who's a designer to be my creative director and also emotional support during the launch. And she created social media templates for me so that I could just write down if I got press. I could put it into a social media graphic and share it. It made it much easier for me to go from zero to a hundred. She also designed my website, which is greedy-bisexual.com, which anyone can go to and buy the book if you want.Jen Winston:And like Angelfire website, it feels like it's from the late nineties.Ben Guest:Yep.Jen Winston:And I'm really proud of the website. She, my friend did such an amazing job and there's so much nostalgia for that time period in the book that it just feels very cohesive and yeah. So that was really important. And-Ben Guest:So there are-Jen Winston:Yeah go ahead-Ben Guest:There are a couple of things-Jen Winston:[crosstalk 00:09:43] time.Ben Guest:No, it's all great. There are a couple things I want to headline for the audience. So first is, one of the first steps you took was figuring out is there an audience for this content? And like you said, there was something like 10 million posts with the hashtag bisexuals, so okay, there is an audience that wants this content. Then second, you made such a great point about what is the physical touch and feel and look of the book, communicate subconsciously to someone walking in the store and seeing it or someone just seeing it on the digital bookshelf of Amazon or Apple books. And I think you use the word code, like we subconsciously code "Okay. Oh, that book falls in this category, that book falls in this category." So having your fit that type of category, memoir in this case, is important. Even though it's something as a reader or an audience, we might not even be aware that we're doing.Ben Guest:And then three the cover. And that's one of the first conversations we had as well. Your cover is kick ass. I'll post a photo of it in the show notes. And I always tell people the three things you want to spend money on, whether you're self-publishing, traditional publishing, whatever it is, good editor, good copy edit, and a great cover. Those things are worth their weight in gold.Jen Winston:And you know what else I have come around? I don't know if I felt this way at the time, but I also invested in a publicist. And that was the biggest line item I've ever paid for anything. I don't own a house, that was like a down payment on a house. It was 25 grand, 25,000 on my publicist, which I used my advanced for. And I had a $55,000 advance, which I recognize feels like a lot. Now that I was literally doing my taxes before this, it feels like I wish it had been far less than that. Obviously I could write off the publicist and stuff and the coverage designer, but I basically put all that money back into marketing and promoting the book and I'm glad I had that money to do it with, I don't know how people write books for a living. Like it's impossible.Jen Winston:And I really think that is important to acknowledge, is the ridiculous privilege that it takes to be able to do this. Even in terms of privilege of time. Like I had the time to work a full-time job that allowed me breaks on nights and weekends where I was able to write this book. But still was like running over into my personal life so significantly and that's a privilege. And I was able to spend my whole advance because I work a full-time job, but there are many people, obviously who don't. And then when you self-publish, you have to use your own money for this. So being very conscious of that. But I think probably when we talked last July, I was not super hype about the idea of my publicist, because I was like, "I don't know what she's doing, et cetera, et cetera."Jen Winston:But I am so happy that I worked with her in the end. My book got a ton of great press and I definitely credit her with that. I think when you're self-publishing, it's easier to realize that if you don't pay for something, it won't happen. Or if you don't pay for something or do it yourself, it won't happen. I thought that my publisher would take care of a lot of the publicity. And I've learned from talking to friends that it's very rare that a publisher will go to bat for you as if the book is their own child. Because when you write a book, it's like the most important thing to you. No one cares about it as much as you, period.Jen Winston:And in many ways, I feel like even though I was working with a publisher and I had some financial and infrastructure support from them, obviously I had distribution support from them, which was something I could never have handled by myself, I was totally unprepared for that. I do think I tackled this in a way that was similar to self-publishing challenge, because I was like, "I want the launch to look like this." And part of that was that I felt beholden to my marketing colleagues and I wanted to show off that I could market well for myself. I also did like a custom Instagram filter and that was also a great use of money. But you have to be very-Ben Guest:Talk about the custom Instagram filter.Jen Winston:Yeah. So those Instagram based filters that you can do, the ones that will circle over your head with "What kind of fast food are you?" So I did one that was called, "What bisexual are you?" Or "What kind of bisexual are you?" And I worked with this amazing creator, amazing non-binary creator named... It was important to me to work with Queer creators as much as possible. And I'm really glad I was able to do that for the most part. And the creator made this filter so visually, it tied really well to my book cover.Jen Winston:It had the same font and the same colors. And then the little logo at the bottom was the book cover itself. And so it says "Greedy" in the lens title. But the actual filter says, "What bisexual are you?" And that was honestly some of my mobile marketing savvy that I was able to bring in. Because I was like, "If this just says the name of my book, no one's going to want to use it. But if it says, 'What bisexual are you?' People are going to want to use it. And then they'll also this subliminal marketing about my book." And that was like 600 bucks.Ben Guest:That, just before you even said the price point, that just seems like such a genius idea because people are plugging into actively doing something. And then of course it's also marketing your book. I'm actually co-writing right now a memoir of a retired NBA player and he played on a couple different teams. And so I'm already envisioning we could do like, "Which team are you?" and then you could pick, and then it's the same thing, but at $600, that's-Jen Winston:Well that person should raise their rates, because they're amazing. Their work is so amazing. I highly recommend following them. And-Ben Guest:What's their name again?Jen Winston:Their handle is Non Finery. Yeah. And they have great filter on their profile as well. I think with that idea of the, "Which team are..." You'd want to make sure that there's some clear callback to the facts that it is a book, that's the challenge with a filter. Because you have to make people want to do it, but then you also have to make people know that it's a book. So in my case, my cover is a bit hard to read. The letters are kind of all over the place, which is what I love about it, because bisexual confusion. It plays off of that. But I was relying on the fact that people would hopefully see it again or have seen it already on Instagram, because so much of my marketing was on Instagram. So I didn't expect anyone to convert to buy my book, write off of that. It was just like another thing in the ecosystem.Jen Winston:And then the other thing I did that was probably... I don't know if it was helpful. It was so much work. So it's really hard for me to say if the work paid off, but I sent influencer packages to almost 200 people. And in each of those packages, there was a book, a card that I hand wrote to each of them, a custom message. I hand wrote it about something we shared via... And most of these people I hadn't met, it was just people I knew through... There was a penis lollipop that I got from a gourmet place called Cocksicles and my publisher did pay for those somehow. And then there was a vibrator in most of them that was donated by a vibrator company that I worked with in the past. And they donated a bunch and later I realized it was actually a great deal for them because they basically sent me $2,000 worth of inventory and got like so many more impressions based on it.Jen Winston:And I did all the work. So I was like, "Okay, I guess that makes sense." I basically ran a full influencer marketing campaign for them for free. And then the packages also had... And this was the worst part, but also the most impactful. I handmade beaded bracelets. I handmade 200 beaded bracelets that said "Greedy" or said "Bisexual" or said "Greedy bisexual," some people got too. I literally sat and watched TV for three months and hand made 200 bracelets. It was absolutely ridiculous, but it was also the thing that most shared because it was like the thing most people posted about, because it was what made them realize that I actually had made this bespoke for them. And honestly I think some of them might have even thought that I bought them because by the end I got like really good at making them.Jen Winston:So the earlier ones, they knew that I'd made them by hand, but it was so much work and I would say about 70% of the people I sent them to, probably shared it. And I'm not sure that really converted to people reading it, because I think on Instagram, people think that it's just an influencer book and it's being marketed by influencers. It's probably full of influencer... Like that big content. So I would do that a bit differently in the future, but I also gave-Ben Guest:What would you do differently?Jen Winston:Just not exhaust myself throughout the whole process. That's the number one thing I would do differently. Is like prioritize my mental health. I was on a deadline because of my publisher and because it was coming out. And I wrote and published the book in under a year. So I wrote the book and then I dove into this marketing campaign and it was without a doubt, the hardest year of my life. I'm still recovering, my body is still recovering. I'm burnt out to a point that's going to take years to recover. And hopefully I get a little bit of time off between jobs and I'm hoping that helps. But it just was incredibly exhausting. But it was-Ben Guest:So that's a brutal schedule for a traditionally published.Jen Winston:Yeah. I don't know why.Ben Guest:Let's go back to the publicist. What were some pieces of advice that your publicist gave you?Jen Winston:So I don't know that my publicist actually gave me that much advice because I knew a lot because I've also worked in PR. So I was like, "This person works for me. I'm paying them this much money, they will do what I say." So I sent them a list of places I want it to be, I sent them a list of every journalist.Ben Guest:And, do you mean like reviews or interviews or something else? What do you mean?Jen Winston:I sent a [crosstalk 00:20:42]. Yeah, I wanted it to be in the New York Times. I wanted it to be... I put Vogue, I put Buzzfeed, I put Cosmo. I didn't put Rolling Stone, but I probably should have.Ben Guest:Let's call back.Jen Winston:I should have. And I also tried to think through things like that. Like what are places I mentioned in the book that might be interested and yeah.Ben Guest:Okay. Wait, so let me ask a question about that. So let's say you have your top 20 places you want the book to appear and you hire a publicist. What was the hit rate? What percent of those top 20 did the book end up appearing?Jen Winston:That's a good question. And if I were tracking that I'd probably be better situated for that. I had two goals for the book. Well I had three. One was to be on the New York Times bestseller list, which did not happen. And that was a very hard goal. And I had no idea if that was going to be possible and it's like not possible. The second one was to get the cover recognized by the New York Times which happened. It was named one of the best covers of 2021, which was an amazing thing. I don't think most of my fellow authors would care as much about that accolade because they normally left it up to the designer, but I was really involved in that creative process. And so that was meaningful to me.Jen Winston:And I actually was able to share the briefing process and all the explorations we did. Once that news was announced, I shared all that stuff on my Instagram and people were like, "This is so cool to see inside this process." And I think everyone was shocked that I was so involved. So that was really a fun thing. And then the third one was to get it nominated for a Lambda Literary Award, which it was. And I don't have... Yeah, as an author, you don't have that much control over that, but you do have control over whether it's submitted. Yeah. I would say that was the biggest asset of the publicist.Jen Winston:So I thought my friend... Aaron Williams, who wrote the book commute, which is an incredible graphic novel, like amazing, highly recommend it. I had asked if Erin had used a publicist and she said, "No," but she wished she had because then maybe it would've been nominated for more awards. And I was like, "Oh, crap. I should get a publicist." I talked to several authors who had not had publicist and they were like, "I should have gotten one" and I didn't want to have any regrets. And so I was like, "Whatever, take my money."Ben Guest:How did you choose your publicist?Jen Winston:I spoke to three on the phone and this was the first... Beth Parker is who I worked with and she was awesome. And she was the first one who asked me to read my manuscript and I was like, "Cool. She cares about..." And she did that before she accepted. I think I was like, "Oh, that means people are going to know what kind of thing is coming from you." And that meant a lot to me, to be able to work with somebody who understood what they were selling. And I think that if somebody's like, "Yeah, I'll do it." Like, "Yeah, we could do that." If they're going to take time to look at your manuscript and understand... Honestly, even if she didn't read it was a smart move and she waited a week. I was like, "If she just didn't read it..." But I can't imagine if she had asked to read it and then was like, "You know what? Actually, I don't want to work together."Jen Winston:That would've been awful. But I was anxious. I was like, "I hope she likes it." And that is kind of where you want to be. I think I wanted someone who recommendations when editors at magazines saw her name in their email inbox, I wanted them to be like, "This person has credibility" and I didn't even realize this, but it turns out she has become marketer for all these Queer books. She's doing so many Queer books. And also, that's another reason I gravitated to her. She had an example in her portfolio of a book a Tomboyland, by Melissa Faliveno, that book I had seen everywhere. And even though I mention it to people, I don't know if you've seen it. Probably not, but you're not the target. And so I was like, "Oh, this book reached its audience, because I'm the target for that book." And so I was really impressed by that book's marketing and PR and I had that thought and I was like, "You're the perfect person."Ben Guest:So the three big benefits of having a publicist, which of course traditional published authors and self-publish authors can engage is the credibility of, "Okay, if she's emailing Vogue, they're going to open the email," the saving time aspect of doing all this work. And then also some halo effect of submitting for literary award awards. Is that correct?Jen Winston:Well, so I thought that would come through her. It ended up coming through my [inaudible 00:25:39].Ben Guest:Oh interesting.Jen Winston:But I do think the press didn't hurt in terms of getting that to happen, getting the award to happen. I think it helps reinforce it for reviewers. Yeah, in my case it was really saving time, but I think there's this sense that it's not happening if no one's working on it. And I even felt like it was not happening, like press wasn't happening when there was someone who I was paying a lot of money to work on it. And just honestly, a good chunk of it was peace of mind and it was worth it to me, because this book was so, so important to me. And I had the means to be able to do it, which is like such a huge privilege, but...Ben Guest:Okay. So you mention Instagram earlier. So let's talk Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. What are your thoughts on each of those for book marketing and lessons learned, advice for the audience, et cetera.Jen Winston:Journalists live on Twitter. That is a lesson that I've learned over the past few years for better or for worse. Journalists live on Twitter. So if you want a journalist to see your content, or if you think there's something newsworthy, it's a great place to connect with them, is through Twitter. It's also a great place to double down on hot takes from your book. You see a lot of people writing threads on Twitter, responding to current events. You can basically write a think piece on Twitter that you've already written in your book, and just keep repeating the information so that people notice you and recognize you as someone who is telling that story and doing that work. That's something that I always tell people to do on social media, but I have a really hard time with. Is if you've said something, you don't have to only say it once. You can say it over and over again, and get your money's worth out of that thought that you had, because you're a writer and that's our intellectual a property.Jen Winston:And to be able to like bring... I could write a much better op-ed about bisexuality now that I've written a book on it, for example. And so I am hoping to do that this year for bi-visibility day to drive attention to my book again. And I can also respond if something biphobic happens in the media, I can take a stance and explain the nuances of it on Twitter or I can make memes about being bisexual all year round and people will follow the content. I would say, the most important thing about TikTok is for books, is book talk. And I do think there's something very physical about book talk. Actually I want to take that back. You can keep it, you can keep it in, but I want to take that back.Jen Winston:Because the most important thing on TikTok is book talk. Is actually like only part of the story, because every book is also about something, it's not just like about books. And so you can also speak to the people who are already talking about whatever subject you are writing about. So I think a big thing is making sure that content finds its audience and that you are engaging with the people who are influencing the communities that your content speaks to. So if it's an ebook, for example, about basketball, I'm sure there are people... I'm very far away from this realm of TikTok personally, but I'm sure there's like retired NBA player niche of TikTok.Jen Winston:That's the best thing about TikTok. So you can find the exact right person and engage with their content, see what kind of content they post and try to figure out how your point of view could fit in or see if they ever do book recommendations or if they ever share thoughts from people and credit the books that they get their information from. An interesting example is while I was looking for this around bisexuality, for one, I found a bisexual book talker who lived in London, so we sent her my book.Jen Winston:And then I also found this very small TikTok called the Bi Pan Library. And it's just all about books that are bisexual and pansexual. And I was like, "Yeah, I'd love to send you my book." And I asked them and they were like, "Yeah, we'd love to receive it. Great." And now we're like loosely internet friends. But it barely had like a thousand followers, but it was like absolutely worth my time to get it in front of a thousand people or even like those 10 who are actively following the page. It's just very important to engage with those communities that are already interested in what you're talking about.Ben Guest:Yeah. So I have a question about that in terms of like, what did that outreach look like? But before we do that, so you mentioned Twitter, TikTok. What about Instagram?Jen Winston:Oh, Instagram is the one I thought I had already talked about it a lot. I guess on Instagram, it's a lot about seeing and being seen. Surprisingly the thing that I found that performed best for sales on Instagram was sharing a photo of my book, a chapter. And I have a chapter called True Life: I Masturbate Wrong. I shared a photo of that chapter, which has like a pretty shareable title. And my that's like the highest my sales have ever been, was the day I shared that. Because that post was being shared and I also included DMs I had gotten from people who were like, "We masturbate the same way. Thank God." And like "Your book's so relatable, especially this chapter." It was like a funny post, but it really made its rounds.Jen Winston:Actually, I think also people were like, "Oh, this is what the content of this book looks like." They'd only seen the cover and then just see like that's what it looks like inside. I've been meaning to share the table of contents, because I think people are like, "Oh that looks cool. Share the best quote in your book, share the best paragraph, highlight it. Put it on a quote card." But also don't be afraid of sharing it in its context. Like with other words around it and the actual thing you want people to read underlined or something. Because people love to know what they're buying, and if you can show them something like a piece that they like, they will potentially want the whole thing.Ben Guest:That's such a great quote. "People love to know what they're buying."Jen Winston:Yeah. It's very self explanatory, but also you wouldn't expect it. People often think that you have to tease, but... There's a quote from David Ogilvy, who's founded an ad agency. I love this quote. He says "Advertising can sell a bad product once." And the idea is that if people find out the product is bad, they're not buying it again. And the same goes for art or books, because if it's not good, people aren't going to recommend it. And recommendation engines, they say, "Humans talking to one another, serving is recommendation engines for your book." Is like the most powerful force that your book could-Ben Guest:Yeah. Positive word of mouth. Okay. Two quick questions. One, when you said you shared the book chapter on Instagram, does that mean you shared a photo of the first page of the chapter or you shared like the whole-Jen Winston:Yeah, I shared the first page and it has the title and the title is obviously what it is. It was a carousel, an Instagram carousel post with that as the first photo and then a few DMs. And then the chapter compares my masturbation style to an undulating monk seal. And so it references a YouTube video. And so I included the snippet of the YouTube video and people really liked that.Ben Guest:You mentioned reaching out to the TikTok person, Bi Pan TikTok, I think. It's such a great advice that you have to find that niche audience that is like 100% your audience and that's who you want to reach out to. Because that's who's going to generate positive word of mouth. So what did that reach out look like from you to that TikTok person?Jen Winston:Yeah. It started a few months before and I did that with so many people. I would did this exact thing with so many people who I was like, "They should read my book" or "I want them to read my book." I followed them and then I started engaging with their content a lot. And then I started commenting on their posts and stuff and making my comments as witty as I could. Or if not, if I couldn't make them witty, I was at least like, "Love this." And I would share their stuff. On Instagram sharing is especially important because it opens your DMs with someone potentially or it puts it to a direct message. So that's an especially important way to start a connection. And it also just shows that you support someone's work.Jen Winston:Yeah. In the few months prior when I was doing reach outs to influencers, I reached out to them and I said, "Hi, I love your content so much and love all your recommendations. Would it be okay if I sent you a copy of my book? If so..." I have the message like almost memorized. I typed it like 300 times, "if so, please let me know the best address. It'll likely ship around this time." I tried to give them as much information as I could and with people who I didn't know as well, which I forget if I did this with the BI Pan Library, I said a few things that it was about. I was like, "It's about bisexuality and contains lots of weird sex stories" or I would give them a bit of context.Jen Winston:And then with people who were more design minded, I sent a photo of the cover. I was like, "Would love if I could send you a copy of my book." And I sent the book so they could see like, "Oh, this looks cool." And I really tailored each of those approaches. And I think just a lot of it is just about putting yourself in the other person's shoes, whether that's all the people you're marketing to, or trying to speak to, or just the one person who you're trying to get help amplify your book and its content.Ben Guest:Right. And was it, "Can I send you a free copy of my..." Or was it, "Can I send you a copy of my book? And if you want to, please share it on social?"Jen Winston:Fortunately, because I run in this influencer community, I think that was implied. I think typically when you DM someone on the internet actually, and ask if you can send them something for free, it's implied that there's a bit of a tax that they have to share it. But I also, you just reminded me I said, "Would it be okay if I sent you my book along with..." Which I think got people even more excited, like "What are the treats?" And then the treats were amazing. It was a vibrator, a bookmark, oh, I forgot-Ben Guest:A cocksicle.Jen Winston:Yeah, a cocksicle, it was just like a fantastic gift package. And that's how I wanted to downplay it and then have it be like, "Whoa, this is great." Unfortunately, because it was in like shiny packaging, I think a bunch of them got stolen and didn't actually make it to their rightful owners. But I hope those thieves are enjoying a cocksicle somewhere and... Yeah. But I do think it was a lot of fun and it helped me feel a lot more connected to my online community and it helped me build a lot of lasting relationships, those that outreach as difficult as it was.Ben Guest:Fantastic. Jen, this has all been so incredibly helpful. Thank you for taking the time and please tell everybody where they can find you and the name of your book.Jen Winston:Yes. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok @jenerous, with a J. And the name of my book is Greedy: Notes from a Bisexual Who Wants Too Much, and you can buy it, hopefully wherever books are sold. But you can also find all the links at greedy-bisexual.com. And you can also subscribe to my sub stack and newsletter, The Bimonthly, there's a link on that greedy bisexual.Ben Guest:And at the top, Jen mentioned the website and how it's this retro design. So I was clicking around on it earlier, encouraging everybody to do so. And Jen, thank you so much. Oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say, which is Greedy is nominated for Lambda Literary Award and was named one of 2021's best LBGTQ plus books by Buzzfeed. So congrats on both of those things.Jen Winston:Yes. Thank you. Very exciting. [inaudible 00:38:48].Ben Guest:And Jen, thank you so much.Jen Winston:Thank you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

A popular word of caution in writing MFAs is that it takes “ten years out in the cold” before anyone can expect success. For screenwriter and former film critic April Wolfe, that meant dozens of jobs, hundreds of cover letters, a dream opportunity as the head film critic of LA Weekly, an unexpected corporate takeover, a newfound creative collaboration, and an opportunity writing a greenlit movie for Universal/Blumhouse. Hers is a story forged by toughness, tenaciousness, and tears; illustrating what it takes for a writer from working-class roots to finally come out from the cold and be welcomed as a Hollywood insider.Follow April on Twitter at @AWolfefulHosted by Jon FrechetteProduced by Jon Frechette & Todd LuotoArtwork by Tim Ahern  |  @tim_ahern_art Support our show at bestlaidpod.comMusic:1. Li Fonte by Blue Dot Sessions 2. Morning Bells by Blue Dot Sessions 3. Drone Lemon by Blue Dot Sessions 4. Twitch FS by Blue Dot Sessions 5. Fever Creep by Blue Dot Sessions 6. Arlan Vale by Blue Dot Sessions 7. A Matter of Perspective by Jon Frechette 8. Ridicule by Jon Frechette 9. The Walking Tour by Jon Frechette 10. A Little Powder by Blue Dot Sessions 11. Best Laid Plans (Theme) by Jon Frechette ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Joe is joined by Graham Irvin to talk about Liver Mush, Food Writing, MFAs, and more!Contact for Graham IrvinNeutral SpacesTwitterLiver Mush Contact for Joe bieleckiTwitter and Instagram: @noisemakerjoeWebsiteOne time donationPatreonTired

Renée Branum's stories and essays have appeared in several publications including The Georgia Review, Narrative Magazine, The Gettysburg Review, Alaska Quarterly Review, and Lit Hub. Her story “As the Sparks Fly Upward” was included in Best American Nonrequired Reading's 2019 anthology. She has earned MFAs in Fiction from the Iowa Writers' Workshop and Nonfiction from the University of Montana. She was recently awarded a National Endowment for the Arts 2020 Prose Fellowship to aid in the completion of her first novel, Defenestrate, published by Bloomsbury in January 2022. She currently lives in Cincinnati where she is pursuing a PhD in Fiction Writing.Follow Renee:InstagramFacebookTwitter***$upport the $how (Patreon)$upport the $how (Anchor)@SituationStoryInstagramFacebook--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/situationandstory/support Get full access to situation / story at situationstory.substack.com/subscribe

James and Aaron revisit Reginald Shepherd's poem "The Gods at 2 A.M." Then they play a round of Top, Bottom, Verse where they ponder the erotic styles of poets like Hart Crane, Walt Whitman, and Mona van Duyn. Reginald Shepherd's blog can be found here. His books are still in print and were all published by the University of Pittsburgh Press (under the fabulous direction of Ed Ochester):Some Are Drowning (1994; chosen by Carolyn Forchè for the AWP Award in Poetry)Angel, Interrupted (1996)Wrong ( 1999)Otherhood (2003)Fata Morgana (2007)Red Clay Weather (2011).You can read the interview we reference in Callaloo here. Shepherd held a BA from Bennington College and MFAs from the Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa and from Cornell. He was born on April 10, 1963 and died September 10, 2008. He appeared in four editions of Best American Poetry and in two Pushcart Prize anthologies. Mona van Duyn was the US Poet Laureate from 1992-1993.