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Exploring the relationship between faith and recovery, especially when it comes to managing Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD), reveals a complex but fascinating landscape. It's like looking at two sides of the same coin, where faith can either be a source of immense support or a challenging factor in one's healing journey. On one hand, faith can act like a sturdy anchor or a comforting presence, offering hope and a sense of purpose that's invaluable for many people working through OCD. This aspect of faith is not just about religious practices; it's deeply personal, providing a framework that can help individuals make sense of their struggles and find a pathway towards recovery. The sense of community and belonging that often comes with faith can also play a crucial role in supporting someone through their healing process. However, it's not always straightforward. Faith can get tangled up with the symptoms of OCD, leading to situations where religious beliefs and practices become intertwined with the compulsions and obsessions that characterize the disorder. This is where faith can start to feel like a double-edged sword, especially in cases of scrupulosity, where religious or moral obligations become sources of intense anxiety and compulsion. The conversation around integrating faith into recovery is a delicate one. It emphasizes the need for a personalized approach, recognizing the unique ways in which faith intersects with an individual's experience of OCD. This might involve collaborating with religious leaders, incorporating spiritual practices into therapy, or navigating the complex ways in which faith influences both the symptoms of OCD and the recovery process. Moreover, this discussion sheds light on a broader conversation about the intersection of psychology and spirituality. It acknowledges the historical tensions between these areas, while also pointing towards a growing interest in understanding how they can complement each other in the context of mental health treatment. In essence, the relationship between faith and recovery from OCD highlights the importance of a compassionate and holistic approach. It's about finding ways to respect and integrate an individual's spiritual beliefs into their treatment, ensuring that the journey towards healing is as supportive and effective as possible. This balance is key to harnessing the positive aspects of faith, while also navigating its challenges with care and understanding. Justin K. Hughes, MA, LPC, owner of Dallas Counseling, PLLC, is a clinician and writer, passionate about helping those impacted by OCD and Anxiety Disorders. He serves on the IOCDF's OCD & Faith Task Force and is the Dallas Ambassador for OCD Texas. Working with a diversity of clients, he also is dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and mental health. A sought-after writer and speaker, he is currently mid-way through writing his first workbook on evidence-based care of OCD for Christians. He is seeking a collaborative agent who will help secure the best publishing house to help those most in need. Check out www.justinkhughes.com to stay in the loop and get free guides & handouts! Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. Today, we're talking about faith and its place in recovery. Does faith help your recovery? Does it hinder your recovery? And all the things in between.  Today, we have Justin Hughes. Justin is the owner of Dallas Counseling and is a clinician and writer. He's passionate about helping those who are impacted by OCD. He is the Dallas ambassador for OCD Texas and serves on the IOCDF's OCD and Faith Task Force, working with a diversity of clients. He's also dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and OCD, most commonly Christians. But today, we're here to talk about faith in general. Welcome, Justin. Justin: Kimberley Jayne Quinlan, howdy. Kimberley: You said howdy just perfectly from your Texas state.  Justin: Absolutely. Kimberley: Okay. This is a huge topic. And just for those who are listening, we tried to record this once before, we were just saying, but we had tech issues. And I'm so glad we did because I have thought about this so much since, and I feel like evolved a little since then too.  So, we're here to talk about how to use faith in recovery and/or is it helpful for some people, and talk about the way that it is helpful and for some not. Can you share a little bit about your background on why this is an important topic for you? Justin: Absolutely. So, first of all, as a man of faith, I'm a Christian. I went to a Christian college, got my degree in Psychology, and very much desired to interweave studies between psychology and theology. So, I went to a seminary. A lot of people hear that, and they're like, “Did you become a priest?” No, it was a counseling program at a seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. I came here and then found my wife, and I stayed in Dallas.  And it's been important to me from a personal faith standpoint. And I love the faith integration in treatment and exploring that with clients. And of course -- or maybe I shouldn't say of course, but it's going to be a lot of Christians, but I work with a lot of different faith backgrounds. And there are some really important conversations happening in the broader world of treatment about faith integration and its place. And we're going to get into all those things and hopefully some of the history and psychology's relationship to faith, which has not been the greatest at different points. For me personally, faith isn't just an exercise. It's not something that I just add on to make my day better. In fact, a lot of times, faith requires me to do way more difficult things than I want to do, but it's a belief in the ultimate object of my faith in God and Christ as a Christian. I naturally come across a lot of people who not only identify that as important but find it as very essential to their treatment. And let's get into that, the folks that find it essential, the people who find it very much not, and the people who don't. But that's just a little bit about me and why I find this so important. Kimberley: Yeah. It's interesting because I was raised Episcopalian. I don't really practice a lot of that anymore for no reason except, I don't know, if I'm going to be really honest.  Justin: So honest. I love that.  Kimberley: Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot because I had a positive experience. Sometimes I long for it, but for reasons I don't know. Again, I'm just still on that journey, figuring that piece out and exploring that.  Where I see clients is usually on the end of their coming to me as a client, saying, “I'm a believer, but it's all gotten messed up and mushed up and intertwined.” And I'm my job. I think of my job as helping them untangle it. Justin: Yeah. Kimberley: Not by me giving my own personal opinion either, but just letting them untangle it. How might you see that? Are you seeing that also? And what is the process of that untangling, if we were to use that word? Justin: It's so broad and varied. So, I would imagine that just like with clients that I work with and folks that come to conferences and that I talk with, the listeners in your audience, hi listeners, are going to have a broad experience of views, and it's so functional. So, I want people to hear right away that I don't think that there's just a cookie-cutter approach. There can't be with this. And whether we're treating OCD, anxiety disorders, or depression, or eating disorders, or BFRVs, fill in the blank, there are obviously evidence-based treatments which are effective for most, but even those can't be a cookie cutter when it comes down to exactly what a person needs to do or what is required of them in recovery.  So, yes, let me just state this upfront for the folks that might be unduly nervous at this point. First of all, the faith piece, religious piece, does not have to enter into treatments for a lot of people to get the job done. In fact, actually, for a lot of people, it was much more healing for them, including many of my clients. I have friends and family members that sometimes look at me as scant. So like, “Wait, you went to seminary, and sometimes you don't talk about God at all.” And it's like, “Yeah, sometimes we're just doing evidence-based treatment, and that is that.” And as an evidence-based practitioner, that's important to me.  So, when people come in, I want to work with what their goals are, their values. And a lot of people have found themselves, for any number of reasons, stuck, maybe compulsions or obsessive thoughts or whatever, are stuck in all things belief, religion, or faith or whatever else. And sometimes actually, the most healing thing for them to do is sometimes get in, get out, do the job clinically, walk away, experience freedom, and then grow and develop personally.  But then I've also discovered that there's this other side that some people do not find a breakthrough. Some people stay stuck. And maybe these are the people that hit the stats that we see in research of 20% or so just turn down things like ERP, (exposure and response prevention) with OCD when they're offered. And then another 20 to 30% drop out. And we have great studies that tell us that most people who stick with it get a lot of benefits, but there's all the other folks that didn't. And sometimes it's because people -- no offense, you all, but sometimes people just don't want to put in the work and discipline.  However, we can't minimize it to that. Sometimes it's truly people that are willing to show up, and there's a complex layer of things. And the cookie-cutter approach is not going to work for them. Maybe they have the intersection of complex health issues, intersection of trauma, intersection of even just family of origin things where life is really difficult, or even just right now, a loneliness epidemic that's happening in the world.  And by the way, I'm a huge believer in the evidence base. There's a lot in the evidence base that guides us. And as I'm talking today, I want to be really clear that when I work with folks, even when we get into the spiritual, I'm working with the evidence base. Yeah, there's things that there's no specific protocol for, but a lot of folks, I think, can hopefully be encouraged that there's a strong research base to the benefits and the use and the application and also the care of practicing various spiritual practices through treatments.  So, to come back to the original question, it depends so much. It's like if somebody asked me a question like, “Hey, Justin. Okay, so as a therapist, do you think that --” and I get these questions all the time, “Is it okay for me to...? Like, I am afraid of this.” I got this question at one point. Somebody was curious if I thought it was okay for them to travel to another city. And it's like, it depends. It's almost always an “it depends.”  So, that's where I'm going to leave it, that nice, squeaky place that we all just want a dang answer, but the reality is, it is going to massively depend on the person and where they are, and what their needs are. Kimberley: Yeah, I mean, and I'll speak to it too, sometimes I've seen a client. Let's give a few examples of a client with OCD. The OCD has attacked their faith and made it very superstitious or very fear-based instead of faith-based. And I think they come in with that, “Everything's so messy and it used to make so much sense, and now it doesn't.”  For eating disorders, I've had a lot of clients who will have a faith component where there are certain religions that have ways in which you prepare foods and things, and then that has become very sticky and hard for them. The eating disorder gets involved with that as well.  And let me think more just from a general standpoint, and I'll use me as an example, as just like a generally anxious person. I remember this really wonderful time, I'll tell you a funny story, when my daughter was like five, out of nowhere, she insisted that we go to every church. Like she wanted to go to a Christian and a Catholic and Jewish temple and Muslim and Buddhist. She wanted to try all of them, and we were like, “Great, let's go and do it.” And I could see how my anxious brain would go black and white on everything they said. So, if they said something really beautiful, my brain would get very perfectionistic about that and have a little tantrum. I think it would be like, “But I can't do it that perfect,” and I would get freaked out, but also be able to catch myself. So, I think that it's important to recognize how the disorder can get mixed up in that. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley: Right? Let's now flip, unless you have something you want to add, to how has faith helped people in their recovery, and what does that look like for you as a clinician, for the client, for their journey? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on the clinical side of things, the starting place is always going to be the assessments and diagnosis and treatment plan. And then the ethics of it too is going to be working with the person where they are and their beliefs and not forcing anything, of course. And so folks are naturally -- I get it, I respect it. I would be nervous of somebody of a different belief background that's overt about things. Some people come in, they look at the wall, they see Dallas Theological Seminary, they've studied a few things in advance. So, yeah, the starting places, sitting down, honest, building rapport, trust, assessing, diagnosing. So, for the folks where the faith piece is significant, I'll put it into two categories. So, one is sometimes we have to talk about aspects of faith just from a pure assessment sample. So, a common example of that is scrupulosity in OCD. So, I have worked with even a person on the, believe it or not, Faith and OCD Task Force who is atheist. And so, why in the world do we need to talk about faith? Why is that person even on the Faith and OCD Task Force? Well, they're representing a diversity of views and opinions on the role of faith and OCD.  Kimberley: Love it. Justin: And it's so interesting to look at it at a base level with something like OCD. But frankly, a lot of mental disorders or even just challenges in life, if clinicians, one, aren't asking questions about, hey, do you have any religious views, background, even just in your background? Do you have spiritual practices that are important to you? We're missing a massive component. And here's the research piece. We know from the research that, actually, a majority of people find things of faith or spirituality important, and secondarily, that a majority of people would like to be able to talk about those things in therapy. Straight-up research. So, a couple of articles that I wrote for the IOCDF on this reference this research. So, it is evidence-based to talk about this.  And then when we get into these sticky areas of obsessions and anxiety disorders, of course, it's going to poke on philosophy, worldview, spirituality. And so, it could be even outside of scrupulosity, beliefs that at first it just looks like we need some good shame reduction exercises, self-compassion, and so forth, but we discover that, oh, the person struggling with contamination OCD has a lot of deeper beliefs that they think that somehow, they are flawed because they're struggling. They're not a good enough, fill in the blank, Christian. They're not good enough. Because if so, surely God would break through in a bigger way. If so... Wouldn't these promises that I'm told in scriptures actually become true?  And the cool thing is, there's a richness in the theology that helps us understand the nuance there, and it's not that simple. But if we miss that component, and it's essential for treatment, it's not just like, “Oh, I feel bad about myself. And yeah, sometimes I'm critical with myself.” And if we don't go at that level of core fear, or core distress, or core belief, oftentimes we're missing really a central part of the treatment, which we talk about in any other domain. People just get nervous sometimes, thinking about spirituality. It's like politics and religion, right? Nobody talks about those things. Well, if we're having deeper conversations, we usually are. And as clinicians, those of you that are listening to the podcast as clinicians, you know that you have to work with people of different political leanings, people of different faith leanings, people who actually live in California versus [inaudible]. I love California.  So, the first category is, if we're doing good clinical work, we're going to be asking questions because it matters to most people. If we don't, we're missing a huge piece. It doesn't mean you're a bad therapist, but hey, start asking some questions if you're not, at a minimum.  But then there's the second piece that most people actually want to know, and most people have some aspects of practice or integration, or even the most religion church-averse type of person will have any number of things come up such as, “Yeah, I pray occasionally,” or “Yeah, I do this grounding exercise that puts me in touch with the universe or creation or whatever it is.”  So, there's the second category of when it is important to a person because it's part of the bigger picture of growth, it's part of the bigger picture of breaking free from challenges that they have, and, frankly, finding meaning. And I'll just make one philosophical comment here, because I'm a total nerd. Psychology can never be a worldview. Psychology tells us what. Psychology is a subset of science. And by worldview, I mean a collective set of beliefs, guidance, direction about how life should be lived. We can only say, “Hey, when you do this, you tend to feel this way, or you tend to do these behaviors more or do these behaviors less.” At the end of the day, we have to make interpretations and judgments about right and wrong, how to live life, the best way to live life. These are in the realm of interpretation.  So, surprise, surprise, we're in the realm of at least philosophy, but we very quickly get into theology. And so back to the piece that most people care about it, most people have some sort of spiritual practice that they'll resonate with and connect with. And then most people actually want to integrate a little bit into therapy. And then some people find that it is essential. They haven't been able to find any lasting freedom outside of going deeper into a bigger purpose, `bigger meaning. Kimberley: You said a couple of things that really rang true for me because I really want to highlight here, I'm on the walk here as well as a client. And I love having these conversations with clients, not about me, about them, but them when they don't have a spiritual practice, longing for one. I've had countless clients say, “I just wish I believed.” And I think what sometimes they're looking for is a motivator. I have some clients who have a deep faith, and their North Star is that religion. Their North Star is following the word of that religion or the outcome of it, whether it be to go to heaven or whatever, afterlife or whatever. They believe like that's the North Star. That's what determines every part of their treatment. Like, “Why are we doing this exposure today?” “Because this is my North Star. I know where I'm heading. I know what the goal is.” And then I have those clients who are like, “I need a North Star. I don't have one. I don't get the point.” And I think that is where faith is so beautiful in recovery.  When I witness my clients who are going to do the scary thing, they don't want to do it, but they're so committed to this North Star, whatever it might be. And maybe there's a better language than a North Star, again, whatever that is for that person. Like, “I'm walking towards the light of whatever that religion is.” I feel, if I'm going to be honest, envious of that. And I totally get that some people do too.  What would you say to a client who is longing for something like that? Maybe they have spiritual trauma in some respects or they've had bad experiences, or they're just unsure. What would you say to them? Justin: Yeah, that's really great. And first of all, I just want to really say that it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to talk as you do. And one of the ways that I admire you, KQ, is through your ability to have these vulnerable conversations. So not just like the platform of expert, because at the end of the day, we're all just people and on a journey for sure. And so thanks for being honest with that.  And I'm on a journey as well. And certainly, I realized jumping on podcasts, these things put us in the expert role and we speak at conferences and things like that. But I think that's a bit of the answer right there, is that being where we are to start with is so huge. And I mean, you're so good with the steps to take around acceptance and compassion. That's it. It's like fear presses towards a thousand different possibilities, and none of them come true exactly that way. And it can lead towards people missing a lot of personal growth stuff, spiritual growth stuff. And one of those things, I think, that we do is we sit with that. Clinically, I'm going to assess, ask a lot of questions, Socratic questions as a subset of the cognitive therapy side of doing that. Let me just come back to the simplicity. I think we get there. We sit in it for a second. And otherwise, we miss it. We're rushing to preconceived solutions or answers, but we're saying that we don't necessarily have an answer for that. So, what if we take some time to actually notice it and to be with that and to actually label it and be like, “I'm not sure. I'm yearning. I'm envious. I'm wanting something, but I don't know. So, put me in, coach.” I'll sit with people. That's really the first thing.  Kimberley: Yeah. What I have practiced, and I've encouraged clients is also being curious, like trying things out if that lines up with their values, going to a service, reading a book, listening to a podcast, and just trying it on. For me, it's also interesting with clients, is if they're yearning for it, try it on and observe what shows up. Is it that black-and-white thinking or perfectionism? Is it your obsessions getting involved? Is it that it just doesn't feel good in your body? And so forth. Again, just be where you are and take it slow, I think.  I have a few other areas I want you to look at in terms of giving me your professional thoughts. If somebody wants to incorporate faith into their treatment, what can that look like? Can it look like praying together? What does that look like? Justin: You're asking all the good questions. Yeah, absolutely. And also, one other thing to reference, I know you're friends with Shala Nicely and Jeff Bell. And so they wrote a book. And for those that are on that, I would say, more “I'm seeking journey,” it's When in Doubt, Make Belief: An OCD-Inspired Approach to Living with Uncertainty. And I love Shala and Jeff. They're so great, and they've been really pivotal people in my own life, not just as friends, but just as personal growth too. And so, that's an example specifically where Shala talks about the throes of her suffering. Is Fred in the Refrigerator? is her basically autobiography that goes into the clinical piece too, where at the end of the day, there was a bit of a pragmatic experience that she couldn't -- the universe being against her, she basically always had that view and she needed something that was different. And so she got there, I think. I hope I'm reflecting her sentence as well, but got there pragmatically. “The universe is friendly” is something that she said.  Now, I just know that my Christian brothers and sisters, if they're listening to this, they're probably like, “What the heck is Justin talking about? The universe is friendly?” Because that's very, very different from the language that we've used, but it's just such a great example to me of just one step at a time, a person on the journey. They're looking at those things and assessing, okay, what is obsessive, what is compulsive, what is this thing that I can believe in and I ultimately do, but maybe I'm not. I don't want to or I'm not ready, or it doesn't make sense to me to make a jump into an organized religious plea for whatever else. And so, how does it look for clients?  So in short, do I pray with clients? Yeah, absolutely. Do I open up the Bible? Yes, absolutely. Actually, it is a minority of sessions, which again, on my more conservative friends and family side of things are almost shocked and scratching their heads. Like, “You're a Christian, you do counseling, and you're not doing that.” We're a bunch of weirdos. We're in that realm of the inter-Christian circle in a good sense. We believe so deeply that God loves us and God has interceded and does intercede, and interacts with our present, not just a historical event here and there, and we're left on our own, the deistic watchmaker, to use a philosophical reference there. That because we believe that so strongly, we're not going to take no for an answer in the sense of the deeper growth and deeper faith.  So, sometimes that backfires though, especially getting into the superstitious, like, “Well, God's got to be in everything, and I'm not feeling it,” as opposed to like, “Okay. Is it possible that I could just have a brain that gives me some pretty nasty thoughts sometimes and it doesn't necessarily reflect that I'm in a bad state, that I can be curious about what a person getting mangled by a car might look like mentally and then be terrified by that?” And then like, “Thanks, brain, for giving me the imagination. Glad I can think through accidents so I can maybe be a safer driver.” Yeah, absolutely. But I will say that's one of those sticky points a lot of times for Christians because we believe that thoughts matter and beliefs matter. And so there can be this overinterpretation of everything is always something really big and serious about my status and my heart, and something that's really big and serious about spiritual things or demonic stuff, or fill in the blank.  So, the faith integration piece, I do carefully, but I'm not scared of it. I've done it so often. It's through a lot of assessments. It has to be from the standpoint of the client's wanting that. Usually, the client is asking me specifically, like, “Hey, would you pray at the end of the session?” Sure, absolutely, in most cases.  And this, such a deep topic. I'm fully aware that there are those in the camp that view faith integration as completely antithetical to what needs to happen in treatments. And they argue their case, they're going to argue it really strongly, but the same exists on the other side as well. And I try and work in that realm of, okay, what's good for the clients? And are there some things that I don't do? Yeah, but I'm not really asked to do them.  I've had a number of Muslim clients throughout the year. I don't join in with Ramadan with clients in various practices or fasting with a client, for example. That's not my faith practice there. But can I walk with the client who is trying to differentiate between the lines of fasting and I had water at this point, and the sun was going down and I thought. And other people were having water, but I'm getting stuck on assessing, like, was it too early, and did I actually violate my commitment, my vow? Did I violate what I was supposed to be doing?  I can absolutely work with that person, and I need to. I can't really work with OCD or anxiety disorders if I wanted to turn that person away at the door and be like, “Oh, well, I'm not Muslim, so I'm sorry.” No, we're going to jump into it and be like, “Okay, so tell me about this thought and then this behavior that came up at this time, and you're noticing that that's a little different from your community, that other people are starting to drink water, eat food. And so, you mentioned that it was right at sunset, but what time was that?” “Well, actually, it was like 10:30 p.m. It's two hours dark.” It's like, “But I think I saw a glow in the distance.” And it's like, “Okay, now we're into a pretty classic OCD realm.” And so the simplest way that I can say that faith integration can be done in therapy is carefully, respectfully, with good assessments. Kimberley: Do you have them consult with their spiritual leader if you're stuck on that? And does that involve you speaking with them, them speaking with them, all three of you? What have you done? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a collaboration that goes in a number of different ways. Most of the time, people can speak with their clergy member or faith leader pretty directly, pretty separately, and that is going to work just fine. I would say in most cases, people don't need to, especially if I'm working with OCD. A lot of folks usually have a pretty good general sense of, “Okay, I know what my faith community is going to say about this is X, but I'm scared because it feels like it's on shaky ground, I'm obsessing,” et cetera.  So, the clarification with the clergy, for instance, or a leader is more from the standpoint of if there's not a defined value definition practice, and that does come up for sure. So, helping that person to even find who that might be, especially if they're not a part of that, and/or maybe a good article to read with some limits, like, okay, three articles max. Check out a more conservative view, a more liberal view, a more fill in the blank.  And then my friend and colleague Alec Pollard up at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute, he's been on scrupulosity panels with me. He uses this excellent form called the PISA, (Possibly Immoral or Sinful Act). And it's just a great several-question guide. That or any number of things can be taken to clergyperson, leader in Christian circles a lot of times, like a Bible study or community group. Maybe flesh those things out just a little bit, maybe once, maybe twice max.  And so, back to how much others are integrated, yeah, it's a mix and match, anything, everything. For me, with direct conversations with clergy, it's actually because I'm pretty deep into this realm, I have pretty easy access to a lot of folks, so I don't really need to so much talk directly or get that person on a release. But a lot of people do, especially if they don't know that religious belief or faith traditions approach on certain topics.  Kimberley: Yeah. It's so wonderful to talk about this with you.  Justin: Thanks, Kimberley. Same here. Kimberley: Because I really do feel, I think post-COVID, there's more conversations with my clients about this. This could be totally just my clients, but I've noticed an increased longing, like you said, for that connection, the loneliness pandemic. Justin: Yeah, that's statistical.  Kimberley: Such a need for connection, such a need for community, such a need for that, like what is your North Star? And it can be, even if we haven't really talked about depression, it can be a really big motivator when you're severely depressed, right? Justin: Absolutely.  Kimberley: And this is where I'm very much like so curious and loving this conversation with my clients right now in terms of, where is it helpful? Where isn't it helpful? As you said, do you want to use this as a part of your practice here in treatment, in recovery? And what role does it play? I know I had mentioned to you, I'd even asked on Instagram and did a poll, and there were a lot of people saying, “It gave me a community. It immensely helps. It does keep me focused on the goal,” especially if it's done intentionally without letting fear take over. Is there anything you wanted to add to this conversation before we finish up?  Justin: Yeah, I guess two things. So, one is you talked about that, and we talked about a couple of those responses before we jumped on to recording. So, in summary, the responses were all across the board, like, “Ooh.” Let me know if I'm summarizing this well, but, “I have to be really careful. That can be really compulsive or not so much. I don't like to do that. I don't think it's necessary.” And then like, yeah, absolutely. This is really integral and really important. Is that a fair summary? Kimberley: Very much. Yep.  Justin: Okay. And so, I'm building this talk, Katie O'Dunne and Rabbi Noah Tile, ERP As a Spiritual Practice. We're giving here at the Faith and OCD Conference in April, if this is out by then. And in my section that I have, I'm covering the best practices of treatments, specifically ERP (exposure and response prevention) for OCD, and clinically, but then also from a faith standpoint, what do we consider with that? And there's this three-prong separation that I'm making. I'm not claiming a hold on the market with this, but I'm just observing. There's one category of a person who comes into therapy, and it's like, yeah, face stuff, whatever. It doesn't matter, or even almost antagonistic against it. Maybe they've been burnt, maybe they've been traumatized or abused with faith. Yeah, I get it. So, that first camp is there. But then there's also a second camp that people like to add on spiritual practices. They might mix and match, or they might follow a specific system, belief system. And whether it gets into mindfulness or meditation practices or fasting or any number of things, they find that there's a lot of benefit, but it's maybe not at the heart of it.  And then there's this third prong of folks that it is part and parcel of everything they do. And I work with all three. They come up in different ways. And sometimes people cycle between those different ones as well in treatments in the process.   Kimberley: I'm glad you said that. Justin: Yeah. And so, I just thought that was interesting when you pulled folks that had come up. Really, the second thing, and maybe this is at least my ending points unless we have anything else, you had mentioned to the audience that graciously, we had some tech issues. You all, it wasn't Kimberley's tech issues. It was Justin's tech issues. I spilled coffee on my computer like a week or two prior. It zapped. It's almost like you'd see in a movie, except it wasn't sparking. And I'm like, “Oh my goodness.” And it was in a client session. That was a whole funny story in of itself. And I'm like, “Oh my goodness.” It wasted my nice computer that I use for live streaming and all of that. And so I'm using my little budget computer at home. It's like, “Oh, hopefully it works.” And it just couldn't. It couldn't keep up with all the awesomeness that KQ's spitting out. And I shared with you, Kimberley, a little bit on the email, something deep really hit me after that. I felt a lot of shame when we tried back and forth for 30 minutes to do it, and my computer kept crashing, basically because it couldn't stand the bandwidth and whatever else was needed. And one might think it's just a technical thing, but I'd had some stuff happen earlier that week. I started to play in my church worship band, lead guitar, and there was something that I just wasn't able to break through, and I was just feeling ashamed of that. And it just really hit me.  And one of my key domains that I am growing in is my own perfectionism, as a subset of my own anxiety, and perfectionism is all about shame. And I love performance, I love to perform well. I like to say, “Oh, it's seeking excellence, and it's seeking the best for other people's good.” But deep down inside, perfectionism is this shame piece that anything shy of perfect is not good enough, and it just hit me. I felt like trash after that happened. I felt embarrassed. And you were so gracious, “It's okay, we'll reschedule.”  And so, I went for a walk, which I do. Clear my mind, get exercise. And I was just stuck on that. And one of the ways where my Christian walk really came in at that moment was, I started to do some cognitive restructuring. I started to -- for you all who don't know, it's looking at the bigger picture and being more realistic with negative thoughts. Like, “Ah, I can't believe this happened. I failed this,” as opposed to like, “Okay, we're rescheduling. It's all right. It actually gave us more time to think about it.” And I didn't know that then, but I could have said similar things.  I was doing a bunch of clinical tools that are helpful, but frankly, it wasn't until I just tapped into the bigger purpose of, one, not controlling the universe. I don't keep this globe spinning. I barely keep my own life spinning. Two, God loves me. And three, it's okay. It's going to work that out. Four, maybe there's something bigger, deeper going on that I don't know. And I can't guarantee that it was for this reason. I'm not going to put that in God's mouth and say that, “Oh yeah, okay, well, He gave us a couple more weeks to prepare.” I don't know. I really don't know. But it helped me to tap into like, “Okay, it's all right. It's really all right.”  And it took me about half a day, frankly. I'm slightly embarrassed to say, “No, I'm not embarrassed to say that as a clinician who works with this stuff. I have full days, I have full weeks. I have longer periods of time where I'm wrestling with this stuff.” And yeah, areas have grown. I've improved in my life for sure, but I'm just a hot mess some days.  Kimberley: But that's nice to hear too, because I think, again, clients have said it looks so nice to be loved by God all the time. That must be so nice. But it's not nice. I hate that you went through that. But I think people also need to know that people of faith also have to walk through really tough days and that it isn't the cure-all, that faith isn't the cure-all for struggles either. I think that's helpful for people to know. Justin: Yeah, that's right. So, thank you for letting me share a little bit of that. And yeah, the personalized example of why, at least for me, faith is important. If folks come into my office and they say, “Nah, no thanks,” okay, I'm going to try lightly, carefully, or just avoid it altogether if that's what they want. But oftentimes it's really at the center of, okay, purpose, meaning, direction, guidance, and okay, you want to do that? I'll roll up my sleeves, and let's go.  Kimberley: Yeah. See, I'm glad that it happened because you got to tell that beautiful story. And without that beautiful story, I would be less happy. So, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. I think I shared with you in an email like I've had to get so good at letting people down that I get it. And I love that you have that statement, like God loves me. That is beautiful. That's like sun on your face right there. I love that you had that moment.  Justin: Yeah, it comes up so much, so many times. In the Bible and even to -- like I wrote this article on Fear Not. So, the most common exhortation in all of the Christian Bible is fear not. So, one might think like, “Oh yeah, don't commit adultery,” or “Don't kill, don't murder,” or fill in the blank. Not even close. The most common exhortation in all of scriptures is actually fear not, and then love, various manifestations all throughout. I could go on, but I know we're out of time.  Kimberley: Well, what I will say is tell people where they can hear about you and even access that if they're interested. I love to read that article. So, where will people hear about you and learn more about the work you do? Please tell us everything. Justin: Yeah, sure. And I'll include some stuff for your show notes that you can send to the things referenced. And then JustinKHughes (J-U-S-T-I-N-K-H-U-G-H-E-S) .com is my base of operations where the contact, my email practice information, my blog is on there. And you can subscribe to my newsletter totally free. Totally, totally free. And I do a bunch of eBooks as well on there that are free. JustinKHughes.com/GetUnstuck to join one of four of the newsletters.  Other than that, that's where those announcements come out for different conferences. So, Faith and OCD, if this is out in time in April, but April every year, it's getting to be pretty big. We're getting hundreds of people attending. We're now in our fourth annual IOCDF (International OCD Foundation Conference), local conferences, various live streams. So, anyway, the website is that base, that hub, where you'll actually see any number of those different announcements. Thanks for asking.  Kimberley: I'm going to make sure this is out before the conference. Can you tell people where they can go to hear about the conference? Justin: Yeah. So, IOCDF.org. And then I think it's /conferences, but you can also type into Google conferences and there's a series of all sorts of different conferences going on. And this is the one that's dedicated to OCD and faith concerns. And just when you think that it's just one specific belief system, then prepare to be surprised because we've done a lot of work to have a diverse group of folks, sharing and speaking and covering a lot of things, ranging from having faith-specific or non-faith nuns, support groups. So, there are literally support groups if you're an atheist and you have OCD, and that's actually an important part of where you are in your journey. But for Christians, for Muslims, for Jewish, et cetera, et cetera, we're trying to really have any number of backgrounds supported along with talks and in broad general things, but then we get more specific into, “Hey, here's for clinicians. Hey, here's for the tips on making for effective practices.”  Kimberley: Yeah, amazing. And I'll actually be speaking on self-compassion there as well. So, I'm honored to be there. Thank you for being here, Justin. This was so wonderful.  Justin: Yeah, this really was. Thank you.

In the first episode of Season 1, co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez speak with LitFriends Angela Flournoy & Justin Torres about their enduring friendship, writing in a precarious world, and chosen family. Links https://sites.libsyn.com/494238 www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://linktr.ee/litfriendspodcast https://www.instagram.com/litfriendspodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553436475678 https://justin-torres.com/ https://www.angelaflournoy.com/ https://www.asalisolomon.com/ Transcript Annie & Lito (00:01) Welcome to LitFriends! Hey LitFriends! Annie: Welcome to the show. Lito: Today we're speaking with the great writers and LitFriends, Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy. Annie: About chosen family, the dreaded second novel, and failure and success. Lito: So grab your bestie and— 
 Both: Get ready to get lit! Lito: That's so cute. Annie: It's cute. It's cute. We're cute! Lito: Cute, cute… So you had a question? Annie (00:29) I do. I have a question for you, Lito. Are you a cat or an ox? Lito: I mean, I would hope that the answer is so obvious that it almost bears not asking the question. I'm a cat. Annie: Okay, so Asali Solomon at The Claw asked us all, are you an ox or a cat? Lito: That's a great question. Annie: And as a writer... You know, the oxen are the people who work every day in the field, clock in, clock out, pay themselves a quarter an hour. I'm literally talking about me. The cats are people who are playful, exploratory, when the mood strikes them… Lito: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Annie Lito (01:26) So are you an ox or a cat? Lito: I'm a cat. I think anyone who's ever met me would say I'm a cat. Annie: How does that show up in your writing? Lito: Well, I mean, play is so important to me—she'll be on the  podcast in a couple of episodes, but when I first...was studying with Lucy, that was one of the first things that she spoke about in our class, and it kind of blew up my whole world. I had been writing for a long time already, but I hadn't thought of it as play, or there was some permission I needed or something. So the idea of play is really central to what I do and love. You wouldn't necessarily know that from the novel that I'm writing, which is sort of a dark book. Um, but it did start out with a lot of play and, I'm also, as you could probably just hear, my cat is coming into the room. Annie: Your cat is like, yes, Lito is us. RiffRaff is like, "Lito is cat." Lito: My cat Riff Raff, yes. Smarty pants. Um, he needed to join in on this conversation. Anyways, I'm a cat. I, I'm fickle when it comes to my work. Um. I don't want to work on my novel all the time, which is great because life has found so many ways to prevent it from happening. So in the new year, in 2024, it will be 7 years since I've started writing this book, and it's still, it's going to take a few more months at least. And what about you? Annie:  (03:09) I'm four oxen pulling a cart carrying all of my ancestors. I am very much the immigrant who says, get up, go do the work, come back, go do the work. And believe it or not, for me, there is a lot of joy in that. It's a... It allows, you know, it's Csikszentmihalyi's Flow, actually. So it doesn't feel like drudgery, usually. It does feel like joy. And I'm actually curious for all you LitFriends out there, if you're an ox or a cat. Lito: Yes, that's such a great idea. Please email us at litfriendspodcast@gmail.com, and tell us if you're a cat or an oxen or share on all your socials. Annie: Yeah, maybe we should poll them. That would be fun. Lito: That's a good idea. #LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: The reason I'm asking is because, of course, both Justin and Angela, who we speak with today in this episode, talk about what it's like to go for 10 years between books. "A banger a decade," is what Angela says. Lito: It's so funny. Annie: And you, you know, part of that, they have this very rich conversation about how, when you put everything into the first book, it takes a lot to get to the second book. But I think also there's a lot of play, right? And there's a lot of understanding that writing appears in different forms. And it might be the second novel, but it might be something else. Lito: For sure. I really like how they talk about— that the practice of writing is actually a practice of reading. And I think that any serious writer spends most of their time reading. And not just reading books, but texts of all kinds, in the world, at museums, as Justin points out, art, television, even the trashiest TV show has so much to offer. Annie: (05:12) And there's such a generosity to the way they think of themselves as artists, and also generosity in how they show up for one another as friends, and acknowledging when they fail one another as we as we see in this episode. And I remember my introduction to Justin when I was a grad student at Syracuse. I read We the Animals and fell in love with it, asked him to come do a reading at Syracuse, which was wonderful. And my wife who, at that time was my Bey-ancé, she was turning 30. We had no money. I couldn't buy her anything. Not in grad school. So I asked Justin if he would autograph his story, "Reverting to a Wild State," which is about a breakup in reverse, for Sara. Lito: Oh, I love that story. Annie: And he did, and he thought it was so beautiful, and I was like, "let me send it to you." He's like, "no, I've got it." He just shipped it to me. He didn't know me. We didn't know each other. Lito: He knew you because of books. He knew you because he loved literature. Annie: Yeah. And I remember that in it. I held on to it at a time when that act really mattered. Lito: One of the things I love about our interview with Justin and Angela is how much all of us talk about generosity, and how Justin and Angela display it in their conversation with each other and with us. And I'm just curious, how do you see that coming through also in Angela's work? Annie: (07:00) You know, I remember her talking about how the idea for the book began with this image of people moving around a house at night. This is The Turner House. And she says this image opens up a lot of questions. And one of the things that really stays with me about that book is how masterful she is at shifting perspective, particularly between siblings, which I find to be such a challenge for writers, right? Like your siblings are the people who are closest to you and sometimes also the farthest away. And she gets that so intimately on the page. And of course, in our conversation with Angela and Justin, one of the things they talk about is being family, essentially being siblings. And that's one of the most powerful echoes of the conversation. They talk about being a chosen family and having to choose again and again and again. And that spirit of consciousness and connection, I feel that very much in Angela's work, and of course in Justin's too. Lito: Oh Annie, I choose you again and again, I choose you. Annie: Oh, I choo-choo-choose you! Lito: So stupid. Annie: (08:05) After the break, we'll be back with Justin and Angela. Annie: (08:24) And we're back. Lito: I just wanted to mention, too, that we spoke with Angela and Justin in October during the writer's strike in Hollywood, and just before Justin's new book, Blackouts, was released. And just last week, as you're hearing this podcast. Annie: Just last week. Lito: Just last week! He won the National Book Award for a book that took him 10 years to write. Annie: Absolutely. Annie: Justin Torres is the author of Blackouts, a novel about queer histories that are hidden, erased and re-imagined. Blackouts won the 2023 National Book Award for fiction. His debut novel, We the Animals, has been translated into 15 languages and was adapted into a feature film. He was named National Book Foundation's Five Under 35. His work appears in the New Yorker, Harper's, Granta, Tin House, Best American Essays, and elsewhere. He lives in Los Angeles and teaches at UCLA. Lito: Angela Flournoy is the author of The Turner House, which was a finalist for the National Book Award, won the VCU-Cabel First Novel Prize, and was also a finalist for both the Center for Fiction First Novel Prize and an NAACP Image Award. Angela is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and her nonfiction has appeared in The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Angela is a faculty member in the low residency MFA program at Warren Wilson College. Lito: (10:36) I'm so grateful that you guys found time to meet with us today, and I've thought about you two as friends since I think this is like the first time you've done something like what you did in 2017, the "Proper Missive"—do you remember that—you published in Spook? And it stuck with me. I was like a big, nerding out, and I bought it and I have it still. And I thought about that. And Justin, you know that you're very personal— there's a personal connection with me because I found your book on my way to my first master's program. No one had said anything about it to me where I was coming from, and it was really great. And Angela, I first found your book. I was so amazed and moved by the talk you don't remember at Syracuse. Angela: I don't remember the lunch. I remember being at Syracuse, and there being a talk, yes. Lito: You inscribed your book, "Here's to Language," which I think is hilarious and also really sweet. And I think we must have said something about language at some point. But anyways, thank you so much both for being here. Justin: Thank you for having us. Angela: Very happy to be here. Lito: So let's start. Why don't you tell us about your friend in a few sentences? So Angela, you can go first. Tell us about Justin. Angela: (11:23) Justin is the first person that I met in Iowa City when I was visiting and deciding if I was going to go there, but was I really deciding no? I'll let you go there. But that I could like, deciding whether I would be miserable while I was there. And so Justin was the first person I met. And feel like Justin is five years older than me. It has to be said.  Justin: Does it? Angela: When I think about people, and I think about like mentors, I have other like amazing mentors, but like, I think that there's really something special about somebody who some people might think is your peer, but like, in a lot of ways you've been like looking up to them and, um, that has been me with Justin. I think of him as like a person who is not only, he's a Capricorn, and he has big Capricorn energy. I am an Aquarius. I do not want to be perceived— Justin: I don't agree with any of this. But I don't know. I don't follow any of this. Angela: But Justin is in the business of perceiving me and also gathering me up and helping me do better. My life is just always getting better because of it. I'm grateful for it. Annie: That is beautiful, all of that is beautiful. Justin, tell us about Angela. Justin: I can't follow that, that is so...  Angela: Acurate! Justin: You're so prepared! You're so sweet! I'm so touched! Angela: Only a Capricorn would be touched by somebody saying that you perceive them and gather them up and make them feel better. Ha ha ha! Justin: I like that, I do like that. Let's see, yeah. I mean, I think that when we met, I had already been in Iowa for a year, and within two seconds, I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends, and you don't know it yet. But I knew it intensely. And yeah, I think that one of the, I agree that I think we keep each other honest, I think. I think that one of the things that I just so appreciate about Angela is that, you know, yeah, you see my bullshit. You put up with it for like a certain amount of time, and then you're like, all right, we need to talk about the bullshit that you're pulling right now. And I love it, I love it, love it, love it, because I don't know, I think you really keep me grounded. I think that, yeah, it's been really (14:09) wonderful to have you in my life. And like, our lives really, really kind of pivoted towards one another. You know, like we've, it was not just like, oh, we were in grad school and then, you know, whatever, we have similar career paths, so we stayed friends or whatever. It's like, we became family. And, you know, every, every kind of major event in either of our lives is a major event, a shared major event, right? And that's like, yeah, I don't know. I can't imagine my life without you. I honestly can't. Angela: Likewise. I gave birth in Justin's home. Annie: Oh! Sweet! Justin: In my bathroom, over there. Right over there. Lito: Whoa, congratulations, and also scary(?)! Angela: It's in a book I'm writing, so I won't say so much about it, but it was a COVID home birth success story. And yeah, like family. Lito: Was that the plan or did that just happen? Angela: Well, It wasn't the plan and then it was the plan. Justin: Yeah, exactly. COVID wasn't the plan. Angela: No. Justin: The plan was Angela was gonna sublet my place with her husband and she was pregnant. And then, COVID happened Angela: There were a lot of pivots. But we did, it was like enough of a plan where we got his blessing to give birth in his home. Justin: It wasn't a surprise. Angela: It was a surprise that it was in the bathroom, but that's a different story. Annie: You blessed that bathroom is all I can say. Angela: Yeah. Lito: We'll be right back. Back to the show. Annie: (16:22) Well, I want to come back to what Lido was saying about proper missives. I love the intimacy. I mean, I know you weren't writing those to one another for kind of public consumption, but the intimacy and the connection, it's so moving. And I was thinking about, you know, Justin, you, you talk about Angela as kind of pointing the way to beauty and helping you see the world anew or differently. And Angela, you talked about how Justin encourages you to take up space as a political act. I'm just wondering what else you all have taught one another. What has your LitFriend taught you? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we did write that for public consumption. Angela: Yes, it was the editor-in-chief of Spook, Jason Parham. Spook is relaunching soon, so look out for it. He just told me that, like, the other day. And he's moving to L.A. So many things are happening. But he reached out to us and was really interested in—he's a big archives guy and like how—he thought it was valuable the way that writers of past generations, they have these documents of their letters to each other, to their editors, to their friends, to their enemies, and how this generation, because we're just texting through it, we don't really have that. And so that was really just the extent of the assignment, was to write letters to each other, which, of course, we still ended up using email to do. But we really tried to keep it in the spirit of a letter and not just something you kind of dash off. Justin: And we were not living in the same place at that time. Angela: No. Justin: So it was, it did feel kind of— Angela: I was in Provincetown, I think. Justin: Yeah, I remember I was on a train when I was, when I was doing— I can't remember where I was going or, but I remember a lot of it was— or a few of those correspondences— because it went over days, weeks. Lito: Yeah, you were going to Paris. Angela: Oh. Glamorous train. You were on the Eurostar. Justin: Wow. Annie: You basically said the same thing then, Angela. Call him out. Justin: (18:32) Yeah, and I think that what I was saying was that one of the things I loved about that was it really forced us to dive deeper, right? To kind of— Sometimes we can stay very much on the surface because we talk every day. And so it was really nice to see, not just what was kind of on your mind in the background, but also how you were processing it, how you kind of made language and meaning out of it. I was just like... I don't know, it's like, I know you're so deep, but then we also love to be shallow. And so it's so nice to be like, to connect from that deep place. Annie: One of the things that I'm so drawn to about both of your work is how you write about family, the way it shapes us, the way it wounds us, what it means to watch family members suffer. You talk about it as the question of the donut hole in "Proper Missive. Angela, I remember you were writing about your father. When you were writing about him, you talk about, "the assumption that a flawed person should be subject to anyone's definition." And Justin, I'm thinking quite broadly in terms of, you know, chosen or logical family. One of my favorite pieces that I teach in my creative non-fiction class is "Leashed," and you write there, "my friends, those tough women and queers were all too sharp and creative for their jobs. If I'm nostalgic, it's not because I was happy in those precarious years, but because I was deeply moved by our resourcefulness." I'm just wondering how you think about, you know, (20:09) family, logical family, and how your lit friendship fits into this? Justin: Who's going first? Angela: You. Justin: Let's see, I think that it's such a great question. I actually like, I use that little short kind of tiny little piece that you referenced. I use that in my book, in Blackouts, that's coming out. I think that, which is a book about chosen family as well, and lineages, and what do you do when you feel there's some kind of disruption, right? That like if you're estranged from your biological family or you know or you just need these connections, these kind of queer connections to and other ways of thinking about family that are not related to (21:06) bloodlines. Like we said earlier, we are family, and we've known that for quite a while. It was something that, I don't know. You know, it's like something that I don't think you ever really need to say. It's just you know who your people are. And I think that, and I think that it's a choice that you make and remake again and again and again. And that is something that is, I don't know, it's so exceptional, right? Compared to bloodlines and biological family, which can be hugely important and bring a lot of meaning to people. But that you're choosing this again and again. Like almost like the kind of past tense chosen family is like, it's like a little bit inaccurate, right? It's like the family you choose, and keep choosing, and you're choosing right now, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Angela: Just that the continuity of it, not in the sense that it's always going to be there, but that like you are, you're like an active, uh, engager like in it. In it, I just think about, I think about that, like, uh, at this point we know each other for 14 years. And the way that there's just necessarily we're not the same people but you have to keep, and you have to keep engaging, and you have to keep figuring out how to navigate different things and I think particularly as like LitFriends there's the huge thing you have to navigate which is especially if you're friends before that you're just like some kids who got into this program that people think are fancy, but you're just like, anything can happen, right? From there to being the capital— going from just like lowercase w, "writer," to capital A, "Author." And like what that, I mean, I've seen many a friendship where that is the rupture. And so particularly figuring out, like, how are you going to navigate that, and how are you going to still be in each other's lives. (23:16.33) Um, one thing I think about, as a person who thinks about family a lot is, with your family, sometimes you can like harm one another, and you'll just take some time off, or you'll just be like, that's how they are. But with the family that you continue to choose, you have to, ideally, you gotta do something about it. You have to actually have the engagement, and you have to figure out how to come out on the other side of it. And that is something that is harder and really in so many ways, all the more precious because of it. And it requires a kind of resilience and also just like a trust. And again, because Justin, you know, likes to gather me up, there's been a few times when I was like, "Oh, no, like, we've got beef, what's gonna happen?" And Justin is like, "we're family, what's gonna happen is we're gonna have to talk about this beef, and then move on." Justin: Yeah. And I think that I think that also you have, you're really good at reminding me to be responsible, right? That just because I've made this commitment, in my mind, right, Like we're committed forever. Like we're family. Like we can't, we can't break up, right? Like it's just like, that's just the way it is. It doesn't get me off the hook of showing up in other ways and being responsible and like, you know, that I can be quite flaky. Angela: I mean, that's just, you've been in L.A. long enough. It's just, you're just becoming native. Justin:  I think I always don't, I don't wanna disappoint you. I don't want you ever to feel like you were looking around for support, and I wasn't there. Angela: Do people cry on this podcast? Annie: We time it. Right at the half hour. Justin: There's been a few moments when I feel it, when I've felt (25:21) maybe that wasn't there enough, you know? And, you know, and if, you know, and like, I don't know, that's when you know it's the real stuff because it like keeps me up at night. You know, I'm just like, wow, you know, what does she need? What can I give? How can I be there? And yeah. Angela: Wow.  There you are. Justin: Here we are. Annie: Lito and I are also family, and it sort of feels never too late. But what you're saying about kind of the like renewing your vows, renewing your commitment over and over, it feels very, very true. Lito: Very true. Yeah yeah yeah. Annie: And life-saving, you know, like life affirming. Lito: It feels real. Justin: Yeah. Look at us. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of you guys too. Lito: It's a love fest over here. Angela: Thanks for having it. Annie: We'll be right back. Annie: (26:26) Welcome back. Angela: Also, particularly again, thinking about a lot of the friends that you have, they're not necessarily also sometimes colleagues. And I think that one thing that Justin really modeled, because I didn't have anything to be transparent about, was just transparency about things. Not just how much he's getting paid for things, but just like what was worth it, what's not worth it, like what is just the way something is and you can like take it or leave it. And I think that in the beginning it was more of me kind of taking that information because I didn't have anybody offering me anything. But now I feel like it's really an exchange of information. And I think that there are people who I love, like, in this industry, if you will, who that's just not our relationship. That doesn't mean we don't have great friendships, but like that is something that like if I'm broke, he knows I'm broke. I never feel the need to pretend and hide or like, you know, and likewise, like if he don't got it, I know he don't got it. It's not, it's just, it just, and I feel like that is something also that is a, it's, um, I think it's important. Especially because you write a book, you know, it does well. And then there are some years in between before you write another. Some of us in this room, maybe take a decade. All of us in this room, maybe take a decade. But yeah, so just really being able to be, to feel like you can still show up at any point in whatever you're doing creatively. Justin: (28:16) Because this is about literary friendships, I think that it's, yeah, there's those two sides, right? There's the business side, which can cause a lot of friction, especially if, you know, things go differently for different books and people have different trajectories. I mean, you're like, you know:  you've surpassed.  Angela: I don't know if that's true.  Justin: But there's that like business side of it. And then there's the literary side as well. And I think that sometimes if it just slides too much into talking about—it's like we could both be selling sprockets, right? There's so much minutiae. It's like we could talk about contracts and whatever and like gigs and da-da-da ad nauseam. And we have to remember to talk about literary side, the literature, the work, the sentences, what we're reading in order to kind of sustain the literary quality of a literary friendship, right?  Angela: One thing I remember you told me, I don't know, ages ago that I thought at the time like oh he's gassing me he's practicing things that he says his students tell me—but now I realize that it is also one of the reasons why our friendship has sustained is you were like ,you know, we can talk about whether a book is successful in 800 ways, but we have to try to remember to just be fans, to be fans of books, of literature, of people writing. And I think that is something that I not only try to practice, but that's something that I think is really foundational to relationship. Everyone can be a hater, and it can be fun sometimes, but like… (30:08) We really do like want to put each other on to the books that we're like excited about. Like I remember when you read or reread Seasons of Migration to the North by Tayeb Salih, and I hadn't read it before.  I mean, it's like a, it's a seminal or really a really famous African text, but I had never read it. Or like Maryse Condé, like I hadn't read it as like a real adult and being able to just like talk about that and know that there's a person who's, you know, you could be in polite conversation with somebody who you think is really smart and then you're like you know what I decided I wanted to reread—I don't know—something a person might wanna reread and they're like, Oh, what are you gonna do next? You gonna read a Moby Dick? And you're like, Oh damn, they just shamed me. You know, they just shamed me for being a nerd. But that's not gonna happen here. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  Annie: I do wanna go back to something you were alluding to. Angela, you were talking quite openly about it, too, which is shifting from writer to capital A author and the pressure that comes with that.  For the two of you, you had incredible well-deserved success early in your career, but I imagine that doesn't come without a lot of sleepless nights, right? I'm thinking about an interview I heard with Ta-Nehisi Coates where he talks about his friends not reaching out thinking, like, He's good, like, You blew up, you're good. And talking about actually what a lonely position that can be. I'm just wondering, you know, how you've both managed to take care of one another through those highs and lows, or being on that track alongside one another.  And even, you know, competition between lit friends. Justin: (32:13) Yeah, I mean, I think that we're just kind of, like our dispositions: we're very lucky in that I think we, before we met, it wasn't something that we like decided on. It was just before we met, I think we're just boosters, right. We're like, The people we love, their success is our success, right? And I think that's one of the reasons to where we are such good friends, it's because we share that, right? So that I think makes it slightly easier as far as like the competition side of things goes. I think that if it really does feel like you're a family and you're community and like you understand that this is a kind of shared win. I don't know, it's hard to talk about though because we both got really lucky.  Angela: Yeah.  Justin: You know, I mean, who wants to hear from people who got really lucky with their first books talking about how hard it is? You know what I mean?  We just, we didn't have, we didn't have any kind of that disparity between— Angela: Yeah, I'm sure, but—I would say even so—if we had different dispositions, we might be trying to split hairs about who got what. But I think for me—and Justin and I grew up very differently in some ways, but I think we grew up from a class background similarly, and we're both like, We're not supposed to be here, like, what can we get? Like, what can we get? And like, who has the information to help us get it? And so I've never been like, why is he in that room when I'm not in that room? I'm like, give me the intel about the room. That might be the closest I ever get to being in there, but I need to know like what's going on in there. And that has, I think, been the way that I just view any success of anybody that I know. that I feel like I can ask those questions to is like, not necessarily like, oh, can you put me on? Like now that you have something, can I have some of it? But just like, just information, just like, what's it like? And that to me is really useful. But also I think that one thing, when you have people, not just Justin, but like other friends and mentors of mine, when you have people who are honest and upfront about whatever kind of success they've had, you… you just realize that there's a lot of different ways to feel successful, right? Because I have friends who, to me, I'm like, they made it, but they're not convinced they have. And I have other friends that, like, to the outside world, they'd be like, wow, they have a little book, nobody cares. But they feel like they did it, you know? And so I realized it's so much about disposition also. Lito:   Do you feel that a lot about being each other's boosters? I mean, obviously it's about your personalities and who you are as people. I'm also curious how much of that, like Angela, you said you were a gatecrasher. You feel like a gatecrasher a lot. I don't know. What are your thoughts on intersectionality? How does it inform your work and your friendship? How does it affect how you boost each other? I'm also curious if there's something particular about lit friendships that intersect with intersectionality and those categories, especially for people who form intimate relationships with men.  Justin:   Wait, say more.  Like how do blowjobs come in?   Angela:  (36:01.171). I was like one thing we have in common is— Lito: More like, less blow jobs, more like having to deal with men and the various ways they, you know, respond to patriarchy.  Justin: Yeah, I think you kind of said it, right? I think that there's something about hustling and figuring out, like, how am I gonna find some stability in this world.  And I mean we have nominated each other for every single thing that there is. If either one of us gets a chance.  Angela: Till the end of time.  Justin:   Till the end of time, right? And it's just, and I think that, and we've shared all information about everything. There's no, and I think that that's kind of like that quote that you read before, right, about this nostalgia and feeling nostalgic, not for the precarity, but for the way that it bonds people, right? The way that the precarity, like you pull, you share resources, you pull resources, you come together and you talk shit and you don't let people get too down in the dumps and depressed. And you're like, no, we're going to do this. We're going to get ourselves out of this hole and we're going to pull each other up. And, and that I think is like, that's, that's the secret, I think.  Angela: Are you answering the question about men?  Justin:   Oh, men!  Angela: And dealing with men.  Justin: I love that I was just like, oh, you're talking about blow jobs. But no, you were talking about patriarchy.  Lito: Same thing, really.  Annie: In the room I'm in, we do not think there's a difference.  Justin: It's fascinating, right? Because when we were at Iowa together, I remember some of the critiques I got from some of the men, some of the straight men, some of the white straight men, was about a kind of provincialism to my writing, right? That what I was writing about was small and minor and just about particularities of identity and that it wasn't broad and expansive and it wasn't universal. That was expected. That was the kind of critique that was expected. The world has changed so much and so quickly in the last 15 years. It's hard for me to kind of wrap my mind around because that kind of thing, I wasn't, I didn't feel indignant. Maybe I felt a little.  Angela: Yeah, you just, but you just like knew you were going to ignore them. Like, you know, like, but no, but you didn't feel like you were going to, like it was worth, except there were some instances we're not going to get into details, but like, it didn't feel like it was worth spending, like unpacking it or trying to call them out. You just were like, Oh, boop, you're over here. Like, you're not.  Justin: Yeah, yeah. Like, I've been hearing this shit my whole life. Like, it wasn't like, there's no space for this kind of thing in the workshop. I was like, this is the world. This is unexpected. But now I don't think that would fly, right?  Angela:   No. I think maybe in like 70% of workshop spaces that I have been in. Well, I guess I've been running them. But like, I just don't, but like also just the disposition of the students is that they assume that somebody is going to like say something or push back on that. But also I guess maybe more broadly the idea of when you say intersectionality, what do you mean exactly? Lito: I think I wanted to keep it open on purpose. But I think I mean the ways that all of these different identities that we take up and that are imposed upon us, how they intersect with one another, race, class, et cetera. Yeah. Angela: I think one of the reasons why Justin and I gravitated toward each other probably in the beginning and why we ended up in Spook is because I think that—which maybe is also not happening 15 years from then—there is a way that back then, there was a way that even your identity could be flattened, right? Like you're Puerto Rican, which means that you are like a lot of things, right? One of those things like, one of it's like we're both diasporic people, right? But that's one of the things that I think a lot of people would not necessarily think is like a kinship between us, but like I've seen pictures of Justin's cousins. I know I'm giving Primo over here. Like I know what I'm doing. And like that's one way that I think that our relationship feels like, like we just felt like kin when we first met because of that. I think that there's just a lot of ways that in a lot of spaces in this country, you're just not allowed to like have all of those parts of you in the room because people just don't understand it or they do, but they just don't want you to be that also.  Justin: It's not convenient.  Angela: Right. Which is why I was like, of course, Jason would ask you and I to be in Spook, which is a magazine that's a black literary magazine. Cause Jason gets it. Shout out to Jason again.  Justin: I can't believe he's moving to L.A., that's so exciting.  Angela: Supposedly like any day now, he's just gonna arrive. There's just ways that when you find your people, you don't have to always separate these parts of you and you don't always have to keep reminding them also, they sort of understand. But also parts of you change obviously and the way that you feel about your identity changes and your people will embrace that and keep, you know, keep making space for that too. Justin: Making space.  Annie: We'll be back in a moment with Angela and Justin. Lito: (42:22) Hey Lit Fam, we hope you're enjoying our conversation with Justin and Angela. We are quite awed by their thoughtful discussion and moved by their deep love for each other and their art. If you love what we're doing, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much to continue bringing you great conversations like this week, after week. Thank you for listening. Annie: (42:59.178) Back to our interview with Justin Torres and Angela Flournoy.  Lito: Justin, you have your sophomore book. How do you feel about it? Are you going to write a sequel for We the Animals like you talked about at one point? Angela, same question. Are there sequels coming forth for you, Angela, to Turner House, or are you moving on to something else? Or you sort of briefly mentioned another book about, uh, I remember you mentioning at some point a book about friends, four female friends, if I remember correctly. Anyways, what's coming next?  Annie: Yeah, and I wanna know about the dreaded second novel because I feel like that's where I'm at. I feel like that's where a lot of writers get stuck. Jutin: Second novel's awful. I mean, you think the first one's bad. You think it takes everything that you have inside of you and then you're like, oh, I've gotta do it again. And yeah, I don't know. I really had a very hard time with it. And I mean, nobody knows better than Angela. I really, really didn't feel like I was up to the task. I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew I wanted to kind of change the way I write and be a different kind of writer, but I just felt like I was falling on my face.  Even after it was done and out until like last week, I was just, I just felt anxiety about it, and I felt really neurotic and I was being really neurotic. And I remember the other night we were hanging out and drinking and maybe there was some mushroom chocolate involved. I was just, like I was just on my bullshit and Angela was just like stopped and she was just like, What is it gonna take to make you happy? Like what is it gonna take? Like look around. And it was like, it was a really good intervention. But then it also led to this conversation about happiness, right? And about like whether that is the goal, right? Like feeling kind of tortured and, and feeling like this gap between what you want for your book and your own capabilities. And that never goes away. You just live in this, in this torturous phase. And like, maybe it's about just coming to acceptance with that, rather than striving for happiness. I don't know. But it's still ringing in my ear. What is it gonna take?  Lito: It's a great question.  Angela:   Maybe some projection, I don't know, on my part.  I am still working on that novel. It's due at the end or at the beginning of next year. It's gonna come out in 2025. You know, God willing. And... similarly the second novel, I think it depends on your disposition, but I think both of us are very interested in and task ourselves with having real skin in the game with what we right. That means sometimes you got to figure out where you get that skin from.  Lito: There's only so much.  Angela: Like, if you played yourself for the first book, then it's gonna take a while. And when I think about, like, when I try to count for the years, I don't know I could have done it any quicker. Like, I just don't know. And I don't think that's gonna be the case for every book, but I do think between that first and that second, especially, were you 30? Where were you? I was 30, yeah. And then I was 30, too. I was 30 also when my book came out. You're just a baby.  You're just a baby.  Lito: Do you fall into the trap of comparing yourself to other people? Well, they wrote a book in two years and I— Justin:  (47:07) Yeah, sure. I mean, I also like compare myself to people who took longer like that feels good. That feels good.  Angela: Listen, I'm like Deborah Eisenberg. Just a banger every decade. That's it. That's all I owe the world. A banger a decade. Lito: A banger a decade. I like that. I like comparing myself to Amy Clampitt, who wrote her first collection of poetry, like in her 70s or something and had some success.  Justin: I generally wish people would slow down. I mean, I get that sometimes there's just like an economic imperative, right? But if you're lucky enough that, I don't know, you get a teaching job and you can slow down, why not slow down, right? Like, I don't know, sometimes I feel like there are a lot of books in this world. And the books that somebody spent a lot of time over, whether or not they are my tastes—I'm just so appreciative of the thoughtfulness that went in.  You can feel it, right? That somebody was really considering what they're building versus dashing it off. They should slow down, if they can.  Angela: But I also feel like we need both kinds. There are people who I appreciate their books, their kind of time capsules of just like, this is the two years, this is where I was. I think of Yiyun. We need an Yiyun Li and we need an Edward P. Jones. Edward P. Jones, you're gonna get those books when you get the books. And Yiyun Li, every couple years, you're gonna get something that, to me, I still, they still feel like really good books, but they're also just like, this is where she is right here, and I respect it and I appreciate it. Everybody can't be one or the other, you know?  Justin: You're right, you're right, you're right. It's much fairer.  Annie: She's someone who, I mean, you know, seems to have changed so much even within that time period. And we had her on a couple of episodes ago and yeah, she's just on fire. She's amazing.  Justin: (49:06) And people speed up as well, right? Because her first couple of books, there were big gaps. And then same thing with like Marilynne Robinson, right? She had massive gaps between books. And then suddenly it starts to speed up. And they're coming out every year, every two years. Yeah. Annie: It's the mortality.  Lito: Well, and life, well, I think lifestyle too, right? Like what you do, how busy you are and what you do out in the world. Like going out and meeting people and being gay in the world, that takes up time.  Annie: And your work has had other lives too. I mean, I'm thinking about how We the Animals was adapted to film in that beautiful, intimate portrait. And I know, you know, Angela, you've been working with HBO and some projects as well. I'm just, just wondering if you want to talk about your work in these other media, how it's been, and even thinking about the strikes, right? Like the WGA-SAG strikes and how that has been on the ground too.  Angela:  Very happy that the strike is over. Solidarity to our SAG-AFTRA brothers and sisters still out there. I passed them on the way here on Sunset. I did honk, wish I was out there today. But I think that for me, it's just like a bonus. Like I, especially now, there's a way that right now writers will say things that are a little snobby like, Oh, I could never be in a writer's room, the group project, man. But like when now that I know so many TV writers living here and I've met so many over the past 146 days on the line, I realized that it is, you just have to be so nimble and agile and you have to also be so not precious about story. But no less smart. A lot of things might end up on TV dumb, but I don't want to blame the writers for that. Now that I really have a real understanding of just how the sausage is made and just how big of like a game of telephone it is—and how much you have to relinquish control because at the end of the day it's like you're making this text, it's literary, but it's also like an instruction manual. It's a completely different way to think about writing. And I don't know how long I live in LA or how many like of those kind of projects I will do but I'm really grateful. And one reason I'm really grateful is because doing those projects and having those years where people thought I wasn't doing anything, but I was actually writing so much and like doing so many revisions.  It helped me realize that there is a way that I blame MFAs for making us like feel very siloed. And like, if you're supposed to be a fiction writer, that's the only thing that you do that's like an output that anyone cares about. But it's so new—like, how many screenplays did Joan Didion write? Like James Baldwin wrote screenplays. Before, it was just like, you're writing, you're writing. Like it's all, it all is the job. And I think every time a poet friend of mine like puts out a novel, sends it to me, read, sends it for me to read—first off, they usually are very good. But then also I'm just like, yes, fiction writers, I think, I don't know who did it. I blame graduate programs, but they have put themselves in this small box. Justin: But yeah, I mean, it's like the MFA, a lot of them feel like teacher training programs and that the next step is teaching. But if you don't want to teach the old models, definitely like you just write for TV. Angela: You write for film, you write for magazines, newspapers, you just do the thing. And that has felt very freeing to me, to just see meet more people who are doing that and also to allow myself to do that. Justin (52:49) Yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed the process of having my film—the book made into a film. I think I had an unusual experience with that. Like a lot of times the author is cut out or, you know, is not deferred to in any way, or nobody's inviting you in. I think because it was such a low budget film, and the director is just a really wonderful person who is incredibly collaborative.  He wanted me involved in every single part of it, and so I loved that. I think, I don't know, I think I might wanna adapt Blackouts for a play. I've been thinking about it lately. Angela: You should. I mean, in so many ways, it is kind of like a two-hander. Yeah. I could see it. Yeah.  Justin: A two-hander. Look at you ready to lingo. No, that's some biz lingo.  Lito: That's going to be the title of this podcast. It's a two-hander. How has art shaped your friendship? And I mean, art, like other genres, we've talked about getting out of the box of fiction, but what movies or art or music do you love to talk about or do you just talk about everything or anything that you're watching and how have other genres affected your work? Like, do you listen to music? Are you influenced by visual art?  Angela: You wanna talk about things you watch on television? You ready to come out in that manner?  Justin: No.  Lito: You watch lots of TV? No. Are you a Housewives person?  You're a Housewives watcher, aren't you?  Justin: Housewives is too highbrow for me. I have like a…I have a secret fetish that is mine. Angela: You have to keep some things for yourself. Justin: Yes. But it's just like, that's how I turn my brain off when my brain needs to be turned off.  Annie: I will wait another decade for that story. Justin: I also like culture and high art as well. You write about art a lot. You do profiles. Angela: I do. I wish I did it more. It's just everything, you know, takes time. I think for me, like when I think about—I just am learning different ways to make a life out of, you know, out of your mind and out of art. And one thing that I've learned when I talk to, like visual artists, particularly, is this idea—I think poets also have this—but fiction writers, a friend of mine actually, a poet, recently asked me, like, how does a fiction writer get a practice, like a practice of writing? Practicing their craft in a way that like a visual artist, you know, they go to the studio practice or poet might have a practice. And I don't believe necessarily that sitting down to write every, you know, three hours every day is the same thing. Because like if you don't know what you're writing, but I really do think that practice is more grounded in reading.  Justin: And reading, I think reading literature for sure, but also reading the world, right? And that's what you do when you go to an exhibit or you go to a museum or you go to a concert or whatever, right, you're like reading, you know, and you're reading the experience, you're reading for other things.  Lito: Is there anything you're both fans of that you both talk about a lot? Any artists or musicians or movies? Justin (56:26) You know, I think that we have some lowbrow sharing tastes. But I think that our highbrow, I don't know. We don't talk a lot about our pursuant— I think I'm into a lot of, like when I was looking at, when I was putting together Blackouts, I was looking at a lot of archival photos and like the photos of Carl Van Vechten, I just, I'm obsessed with…  I've been spending a lot of time with them, thinking about him and his practice. I think that, you know, I like all kinds of stuff. I'm like a whatever, what's that horrible term? Culture vulture?  Angela: I don't think that's what you wanna say. But I know what you mean, yeah.  Justin: Yeah, I am democratic in my tastes. I'm just like, I like everything. We don't have a lot of shared tastes, I don't think.  Angela: Um... No?  Justine: No.  Annie:  I sort of love that. I mean, it, um, the friendship, belies, that, you know, it's only a bonus in that way. I think Lito and I also have very different tastes. There's something kind of lovely about that. Lito: I remember Annie making fun of me for not being hardcore enough in my taste in hip-hop. Annie:    I guess we're putting our dirt out there too.  Lito:   We'll be right back with the Lightning Round. Annie:   Ooh, Lightning Round. Annie: (58:12) Thank you both for talking with us today. This was really wonderful. We really feel the honesty and warmth in your friendship and we're so appreciative that you're sharing that with us today and with all of our LitFriends. We're excited for both your books and we're so grateful you spent the last hour with us.  Angela: That was a pleasure.  Justin: Thank you. Lito: All right, we're gonna we— wrap up the podcast with a Lightning Round, just a few questions. We will ask the question and then I guess we'll do it this way. When I ask the question, Angela, you can answer. And when Annie asks the question, Justin, you answer first. Sorry, first answer first. You're both going to answer the question. What is your first memory?  Angela:  My sister roller skating through sprinklers and falling and hitting her head. Justin: I literally have no idea. I, yeah, I don't know. It's a blackout.  Angela: How many times have you said that?  Lito:  Very on brand.  Angela: You've had a long book tour. Justin: I'm practicing.  Annie: Who or what broke your heart first?  Angela: Is it too deep to say my daddy? I know.  Justin: I was going to say my daddy.  Angela: That's why we're friends.  Justin: I know. It's so sad.  Angela: (59:37) Daddy issues.  Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history?  Angela: Toni Morrison.   Justin: Yeah, maybe Manuel Puig. He seemed really cap and hilarious. And also a brilliant genius.  Angela: I need Toni Morrison to tell me how to raise my child. And to still write books. Someone help me. Annie: What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next, maybe something collaborative or something different or a story they haven't told yet?  Justin: I mean, I think I would love to see you actually write something kind of ekphrastic. Like I'd love to see you write about art. I love when you write about art. I love your thoughts about art and art makers. So maybe, like, a collection of essays about culture. I'd love that. Angela: Besides this two-handed, this play, which I would love for you to write. Maybe there's more, I mean, there's more voices in the book than two, though. So it doesn't have to be. Justin is a poet. I have said this since the beginning. I'm ready for this collection.  Justin: Never occurred to me in my life. Angela:   That is not true.  Justin:   Well, writing a collection. Angela:   Okay, well, I would love for you to write a collection of poetry.  Justin:   Maybe I will. Maybe you just gave me permission, as the children say.  Angela:   Mm-hmm. I know.  Lito: If you could give any gift to your LitFriend without limitations, what would you give them?  Angela: I would give him a house with a yard and a pool.  Justin: That's what I want.  Angela: In a city he wants to live in. That's the key.  Lito: That's the hard part. Justin:  (01:01:35) Um, I would give Angela time to be with her thoughts and her craft. I guess what does that involve?  Angela:   This is because I call myself a busy mom all the time.  Justin: You are a busy mom. Angela: (01:02:08) Thank you, that's a nice gift. Time is the best.  Justin: I mean, it's not as good as a house with a pool.  Angela: I know, because I can use my time as wisely as possible and yet—no pool. Lito: Well, that's our show. Annie & Lito: Happy Friendsgiving! Annie: Thanks for joining us, Lit Fam. Lito:   We'll be back next week with our guests, Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth. Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast. Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.  Lito:   And I'm Lito Velázquez.  Annie:   Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton. Lito:   Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.  Annie:   Lizette Saldaña is our marketing director.  Lito:   Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.  Annie:   And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez. This was LitFriends, Episode One.

Tanner Weyland:Hello and welcome to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. My name is Tanner Weyland and I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi.Justin:Hi there.Tanner Weyland:Well, everyone, we are so happy to be together. As you know, Justin with his new baby, we haven't had as much of a chance to record. How's it been, Justin?Justin:Honestly, having a baby is easier and harder, much harder than I thought, right? It's just, it's crazy. The effect. Honestly, if that doesn't tell you what you needTanner Weyland:I'mJustin:to know aboutTanner Weyland:sorry.Justin:having a baby, then I don't know what would.Tanner Weyland:Exactly. I love that though that Jan was timed perfectly.Justin:Seriously.Tanner Weyland:Either way, we're super happy to have you back and just to be recording again. Let's let's hop into a fun little topic, kind of a creativity focused topic about how to make a campaign that is focused on going on an expedition. namely what makes an expedition-based campaign different from a normal campaign. Now, Justin, have you ever seen any movies that come to mind of an expedition or a journey or something like that?Justin:Absolutely. There are many, many out there. And just to give you kind of an idea of sort of the breadth that you can go when you think of Expedition, there's Atlantis, the Disney animated movie, which is a hidden treasure, I'd say. I would love to play a D&D campaign in that world. That would be so fun. And on the other hand, there's Alien versus Predator. Both of those are expeditions right but obviously there's twists and turns along the wayTanner Weyland:Yeah, exactly. You know, I think. I think it's such an important story format for movies especially, but for D&D there's so many great things that you can do with it. Many D&D campaigns, like longer running campaigns, kind of take the form of an expedition or they can, but I think that there are specific things that you can do that can kind of set it apart and offer a new type of experience. to players. But you know, I think that our greatest teacher of what makes an expedition different from a normal campaign is Dora the Explorer, if we're being honest.Justin:Yeah.Tanner Weyland:I just I was thinking about it earlier and I was like actually she's like the kind of format of her thing of like, oh we need something we're going to go through this dark tunnel around the mountain, you know, for anyone who isn't from the US, Door of the Explorer is this cartoon that, you know, was supposed to teach, you know, English speaking. Children about how to speak Spanish, right? It was mostly in English But you know she'd have teach some Spanish phrases and the kind of the whole thing was like, oh she needed an object In order to get the object she would find the map in her backpack Look at it. It'd be like oh you do these go past these three places with their own challenges And then you reach the thing that you're trying to get and that's kind of I think that can really be a good benchmark for what makes an expedition different.Justin:Yeah, it's kind of the idea of... Well, and I guess we need to be careful when talking about expedition because it could be easy to think, oh, well, that's just the hero's journey, right? Because the hero is supposed to, you know, theoretically go on this quest. But generally expeditions have sort of a different feel, right? With the hero's journey... there's the quest, but I feel like the expedition, one of the biggest parts of the expedition is the travel. Right? It's the idea that we, like the quest is to travel, you know, to go...

Here's the transcript of today's episode:Tanner Weyland:to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. This is Tanner Weyland, and I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi!Justin:Bye.Tanner Weyland:Hi. Perfect. We're glad to be here with you guys. And today we're going to have a little, you know, just a little question episode, just a little episode where we're answering one question. How do you convince a non-playing person to play D&D? Justin, let's get your thoughts.Justin:Alright, for me, step one, ask what movies they like to watch, right? Because most people like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Marvel, Harry Potter, you know, or any number of fantasy movie. And once you know, oh, you like Harry Potter, well, how is Harry Potter any different than Dungeons and Dragons, right? That would be my first tip. Ask what movies they like.Tanner Weyland:Yeah, one thing that I would throw in there is convince the people around them. Like, for example, my wife, she's never played D&D, never wants to. She's firmly in the camp that's like, oh, that's nerdy stuff, you know, and yet she has friends, friends that she thinks are cool. who liked D&D and they heard that, you know, I'm into D&D. They're like, oh my goodness, you should have read a D&D campaign or a session for us, right? And I was like, oh yeah, that sounds great. And then, you know, the thought was planted in my mind. I was like, I can get Kirstie to join. These are her work friends. Of course she would play. Why would she not? She tried to play a little bit of hard to get. It's like, oh, I don't know. I just want to watch you guys play, but. I was like, I think I can get her specifically because she has friends, people that she respects as normal people, not as nerds like me. And that's a good way to convince them. And I think pairing with that, even if she doesn't play, if she sits and sees how an actual game is played, right? Because I got into D&D, frankly, because I started listening to podcasts, you know, live play podcasts. And that was, I was like, oh, this is really fun. I can do this. This isn't too far of a leap. She's never going to do that. What she could do is get a in-person live play podcast, quote unquote, you know, where I'm playing with her friends. If I'm unable to convince her, of course. And that would totally open up the way for like, Hey, if they like it enough and they want to do it again, she'd probably be willing to do the next time. Right.Justin:Absolutely. In fact, my wife's aunt still sort of thinks D&D is related to devils and demons, right?Tanner Weyland:Oh, yeah, the satanic panic kind of thing.Justin:Yeah, exactly.Tanner Weyland:Yeah.Justin:And it's not so much that she like actively thinks that. She just had a bad experience essentially, but her daughter, right, is living with my wife's parents and because of that her daughter, her daughter my wife's cousin, is not allowed to play D&D, right? But she's come over while we're having our sessions and watched us play and we ask her and we say like, hey, do you think there's anything wrong with this? And she's like, no, it kind of sounds a little boring. Which I mean, you know, that's her opinion, but exactly what Tanner said, expose them a little bit to D&D, right? Have them watch the D&D movie. And everyone knows the D&D movie was funny because you have, you know, lots of kind of new up and coming actors as well as some pretty old and storied actors, you know, who Hugh Grant has been in countless movies, but you have themTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:watch the D&D movie, they're going to laugh, they're going to see things that are pretty cool, and they're going to ask questions like, wait a second, is Thimbershod that giant fat dragon? Is he like a real character?...

In this Episode, Andy talks with OptConnect CEO Chris Baird, and National Sales Justin Nichols. www.OptConnect.com ========== Andy: For those of you listening that this might be the first time you've heard about OptConnect, I encourage you to go listen to Episode #73 that Justin and I recorded probably a year and a half ago. Something like that year and a half ago, two years ago, and that'll be kind of like level one cellular connectivity intro, how it works, the benefits, all those sorts of things. What I want to do today is kind of hear from both Justin and Chris on where things, where their business has evolved since kind of. Entering the irrigation market. Justin: Yeah, that's awesome. Uh, you know, we entered the irrigation market about three years ago and we knew that we had a very good value prop based on, you know, other markets that were very active in, in our market leaders. And, and over the last two and a half, three years, you know, we've really started to scale in the irrigation market. I think today we have about. Four out of five of the large, you know, national distributors set up to be able to supply OpConnect hardware and services and about a dozen, uh, regional distributors as well. So if you haven't heard of us, chances are it is locally available at your, you know, landscape irrigation supply house. Uh, also just recently during smart irrigation month. We launched our brand new Ascend Dura device. And what's really cool about the Ascend Dura is it basically functions like a wifi hotspot on your phone. And so for the last couple of years, you know, we've really, uh, tried to penetrate the central control market. Uh, and now we have a new tool in our tool belt that allows us to connect to wifi only type of controllers. So you're. Your Hydra wise, your beehives, your ratios and any other type of wifi only type of gateway, uh, to be able to provide the same type of high level managed service to be able to troubleshoot. Now, not only the cellular side of that, but also the wifi side of that. So you can now bring your own wifi solution, plug and play and let us. Hit the easy button for you. Andy: Okay. Wow. So there's a whole bunch happening there and some of this I wasn't quite aware of. So why don't we step back? Because I had always thought of OpConnect as, as cellular, but you just said a bunch of wifi. So how does cellular and wifi come together? Justin: Yeah. So basically the wifi allows you to connect locally to a piece of equipment, just like you would in your house. Uh, and so we're able to make a local network connection via wifi. to that wifi only irrigation controller that allows the user to connect with a cellular device when otherwise they would have no means or way of connecting that external device. So we collect connect locally via the wifi network. But then all the communication is done on the cellular side. So when you're trying to do remote management, uh, Monitoring of a site like this, that's using a wifi only controller, whether it's light commercial, your own personal property, a vacation rental. We're able to manage that now remotely over the cellular network. And because of our managed service value prop, we can actually troubleshoot. Both types of those connections with the wifi. Andy: So can we like get a tangible example? Let's name a controller just to give this some context. Could we say like a Hunter Hydrawise controller? Would that make sense to talk about that? And just to try to, you know, have it more tangible. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So you have a Hunter Hydrawise controller. Uh, you know, has 48 plus zones. If I remember correctly, they can go on a lot of light commercial properties. The cost is a little bit less expensive than that commercial unit, but you're relying on that property owner or that site's wifi connection. Perhaps they won't let you on their network. Perhaps the wifi signal isn't strong enough. We're able to put a cellular device that acts as a Wi-Fi hotspot inside that controller or right next to it and allow any type of Hydrawise user to manage that system remotely over an OpConnect cellular network. Andy: Okay. So you bring another device, your brand new device, and let's talk about that device. Is it one device? Is it two devices? How do you get from the cellular cloud down to the Wi-Fi LAN or local Wi-Fi? Justin: Yeah, it's all it's just one device. So basically, we have the, the Wi-Fi technology and the cellular technology baked into a single device. It's fully plug and play, we can provide a NEMA 4x enclosure. So if it's You know, an outdoor install and you don't want to mount it inside that Hydrawise controller cabinet. We can just install it right next to it. There's no wiring that you would have to run between the two. And it's, it's very simple. It's, it's activated, ready to go out of the box. The Wi-Fi is turned on. We give you, you know, the SSID and password to manage that. We can change that on your behalf. Uh, you really don't have to worry about anything when it comes to setting up that local Wi-Fi network or managing it over the cellular network. Hmm. Andy: Wow. Wow. Okay. A couple of things I'm thinking, is this a single controller device or can you connect multiple controllers or even other devices to it? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So just like you would with your iPhone, if you're traveling and you and your work colleague are trying to get on a Zoom call or check your email. We can connect multiple wifi devices to this single device. Uh, it also has four ethernet ports. So if we wanted to, we could actually hardwire four controllers into it as well. Uh, but yes, any type of wifi equipment that the landscape property manager or whoever it is. Uh, is, is utilizing at that site. We can connect everything that they have at that site, uh, within a, within a reasonable distance, obviously, uh, to the wifi, to the Ascendera device. Hmm. Andy: Does that change, you know, so thinking historically irrigation controllers don't really use a lot of bandwidth, right? There's just not a lot of bandwidth. What is the bandwidth of this device? And I ask because I'm just curious. Because somebody may want to, you know, get on their phone and watch YouTube, and from an irrigation perspective, that's a lot of data that historically hasn't been required. But how does that translate to the new device? Yeah, so the new Justin: device is called a LTE Cat 4. So that is kind of your baseline fast type of device, uh, similar speed to, you know, web browsing or, or app browsing on an iPhone. And so it's going to have the speed and bandwidth to connect multiple controllers or pieces of, you know, equipment that, that communicate via wifi. Simultaneously, so you're not going to have any lag, any delay, uh, any timeouts in your communication probably wouldn't, uh, advocate for them to use it as a hotspot to, to stream, you know, YouTube on just because there are data plans on the cellular side associated with that. Uh, and you don't want to, uh, get dinged for, for using a couple of gigs of data when your irrigation controllers are maybe set up for, you know. 250, 500 megabytes of data Andy: online. And I was kind of asking, not because I think someone's gonna get out their phone and start watching YouTube, but maybe there's an opportunity for a contractor to mention this to maybe, um, a municipality or a school district, something like that, so that they, the, you know, the client can get extra usage out of the device. Absolutely. And use it to operate other equipment that happens to be on the site. Yeah, Justin: absolutely. And so when you get into some of these commercial installs, you know, outside of just the wifi-only type controllers, you may have four or five, six controllers in a utility room, and we could connect all of those with a single device Andy: now. Wow. Cool. So I'm, I'm wondering if this would be a good time to discuss if a, if a contractor or a client, you know, is thinking of a control system, you know, XYZ, let's not name any names, controller XYZ, and that. The brand manufacturer offers on their own, both wifi and cellular, you know, how, what type of decision would they make or how would they make the decision to use OptConnect and choose, you know, this device that you're talking about the wifi hotspot or just your, you know, standard cellular device. Justin: Yeah, it would probably be a decision based on what their current infrastructure, you know, is in that area. Um, the device can support five Ethernet-based connections. No, I would probably still advocate for hardwiring it in. Um, but otherwise, yeah, uh, they would have the ability now with multiple tools in the tool belt to make an even more informed decision as to how they're going to connect their equipment or other equipment. Uh, in their room that they want to be able to remotely manage. Andy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As well as I'm just thinking, uh, you know, my brain's just turning here. I'm thinking that there's a benefit to knowing that OptConnect is, you know, supporting the brand manufacturer with the installation so that the client doesn't have to worry about how reliable is the brand manufacturer's cellular. This takes that question away because now they can look at Your company OptConnect and see that this is what you do. So it almost like may reduce the risk of using, you know, an irrigation brand manufacturer. Cellular service. Chris: You, you bring up a really good point, Andy. And, and in our world, you know, we think of connectivity as more than just connecting it to a, uh, to a cellular tower and then allowing that to, to roam. If you were to use OptConnect over a different solution, say one of the brand manufacturers, there's an entire team at OptConnect that's dedicated to watching for certain events like overages and outages. We're watching to make sure that that device has a healthy connection. We're taking autonomous action. If it doesn't, uh, we're on the back end providing support in the event that, uh, the, the installer or the end user has additional questions or needs support. You know, anybody can pick up our phone and be talking to an agent in 30 seconds or less, get live technical support, single call resolution. There's the, uh, a layer that OpConnect brings, uh, professionalism. and satisfaction, if you will, to an operator that they might not get anywhere else so that they don't have to think about it. We know that in the world of IOT internet of things. If there is not a reliable eye, there is not a reliable tee. And we try to bring that stability so that an operator can go do what they're best. They're not best at sitting behind a computer screen watching for connectivity to drop. We are. They love to be out moving on to the next deal, making sure the grass is green, the client's happy and that everybody is, uh, is satisfied at knowing. That, that controller's connected reliably to the internet. Mm hmm, mm Andy: hmm. And I think as soon as, um, a contractor or client experiences an outage, uh, or when I say outage, I mean the controller's offline, let's, let's say it that way. The device is offline. A lot of the time, brand manufacturers can't tell the user why. It's just offline. You know, you got to roll a truck out there. It could be, uh, the power's out. It could be it lost, uh, uh, the connection and it timed out. You got to roll your truck out there. And from what I've experienced using OpConnect, one of the greatest benefits is to be able to explain, help explain why the controller is offline. Because just because the controller is offline doesn't mean it lost its cellular connection. Your device could be still connected and it's a great way to troubleshoot that remotely. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. We're able to eliminate a lot of variables without having to roll that truck roll, which is very costly. Andy: Well, Chris, since we have you joining us today, I would love for you to share, you know, I guess as much as you are willing to share in terms of how OpConnect kind of, um, got started or sort of the foundation of OpConnect, you know, before you guys entered this industry, could you share a little bit about that? Chris: Sure. It's a, it's a good story. I'll see if I condense it, can condense it here for us. Uh, there's a really interesting part of this story, which is, uh, I think there was some timing involved here and being a little bit lucky and having some, uh, some insights that were coming. We really cut our teeth. In another industry, uh, not in, uh, in agriculture, if you will, or in irrigation, we actually cut our teeth over in the retail industry, which, uh, specifically we were serving locations that were unattended, such as kiosks, ATMs, and signage. And what we learned in that space is that connectivity was becoming increasingly important, more and more difficult to procure and less and less reliable for people that were doing it themselves. So we set out to Perfect. A solution that ultimately became OptConnect. And over the course of a few years, we refined that and product ties that in a way that allowed us to take that same solution to dozens of industries, which we do today, we take each of these industries serious. We try to serve those industries in meaningful capacities. We try to be good stewards and participants of trade shows and organizations. We try to be thought leaders or partner with thought leaders to help enable them. But really what we learned through it all is that we had an opportunity to become an expert at something everybody else took for granted or thought as an afterthought. Thanks to the advent of the iPhone, everybody thinks that IOT connectivity can be as simple as an out of the box, powered on, uh, walk away solution. And we know the reality is, we've worked very, very hard to make that experience true. But otherwise, it generally doesn't happen, or it certainly doesn't scale to that, that capacity. So, when we started, uh, serving these various industries, our goal was simple. We want to make a out of the box experience, make it as easy as possible for anybody in any industry. to open a device, plug it into power, hook up the antenna, plug in the Ethernet cable and walk away. 30 second install. Uh, or we're not doing it right. And I'll tell you, it's taken a team pretty significant team. Uh, you know, a long time to perfect that to make that a reality. And that's what we've done today. Uh, the company really has evolved over, over the last couple of years, but we've really hit a stride as well. And we know where we provide value. We know where we sit in the supply chain, if you will, of our customers and how critical internet connectivity is. And, uh, you know, we just come to work every day loving what we do. Andy: That's great. I love how you mentioned, I think you use the word unmanned devices, something to that effect, and I couldn't agree more because there's a difference between something working all the time, or let me step back, there's a difference between when something fails, but there's a dude one door down that can just go, you know, restart it versus something that's unmanned. When it's unmanned, it really needs to work all the time because there's nobody around to fix it. And I think that's a, that's a great differentiator. And if you can achieve, uh, you know, close to a hundred percent success and an unmanned environment, that's, Chris: that's amazing. Yeah. You know, that's, that's just the reality of, uh, of where we're headed today. And especially if you fast forward in the history of the company through the pandemic. We learned that a lot of businesses turned to technology when the workforce sort of dried up, if you will. They turned to connectivity as a means by which they could be in multiple places at once. Uh, we learned through the pandemic as a nation and as a world, the importance of connection. And we certainly learned in the business world the importance of connectivity and OpConnect serves that and sits directly in that value proposition of being able to allow our customers to magnify their efforts and to be in multiple places at once, if you will, by essentially replacing the man on the edge with a device that allows our customers to see what's going on. And, uh, to, to trust and know that somebody's behind the scenes making sure everything's working how it needs to all the time. That's fantastic. Andy: I'd like to ask if you're willing to share how you came to the company, Chris: Chris. Yeah, I, that's a great story. I've actually been here since the beginning, since day one. And, uh, I was in a, an adjacent market, if you will, uh, working. Happily in that market, when the opportunity came about to take this, what we call our proverbial duct tape solution of a router, this is in 2006 when IOT wasn't even a word, right? Yeah. If you will, or even M to M it was all. what we would call telemetry, uh, and pull that together. And over the course of a couple of months, what we found is that there was a solution out there for the oil and gas industry that allowed for that remote telemetry to be collected. via a cellular gateway and transmitted to the cloud, if you will. Uh, and I, I think even then calling in a cloud was a big stretch. Uh, like I think about today, right? Very, very expensive solution. So I set out to, to, to find a way to get the cost down and to productize that, to standardize on what we did. And, and about two years later, after having some. Pretty phenomenal success, just word of mouth. We made the strategic decision that, that this could not only be a product, but it could actually be a business. And not only could it be a business, it could serve dozens of industries. And not only could it serve dozens of industries, but we saw the writing on the wall years and years ago that we were going to be moving towards an ever connected world that relied on the ability to connect ubiquitously anywhere, almost anywhere that you are. There's, we call them cellular deserts. There's very few of those that exist in the country these days. Uh, you know, connectivity is essentially everywhere. And, uh, we set out to. Find a way to to meaningfully connect our customers to the Internet, uh, and it's just it's been a lot of fun. We have had so many extreme use cases and different examples of things that have come to us over the years. And, uh, you know, irrigation is just one of dozens, but a perfect example of where we can add value to something that may have had a legacy solution that's either old, decaying or going away. You know, radio controllers and, and, uh, you know, traditional, uh, boring of, uh, and laying cable and, and copper underground, you know, those are days of past and, uh, with everything moved to connectivity wirelessly or cellularly, you were, we're in a perfect position to help. Andy: So over the last 15 years, has it just been smooth sailing, easy peasy, lemon squeezy, the business just grew, or were there times when. It was tough going and you questioned whether you were making the right decisions with the company. I love to hear kind of how the progression went. Chris: Yeah, you know, as we look back, it's really clear to see that we've always been under some meaningful growth tension. Whether we recognized it in the moment or not, uh, there were always things that we were learning and adjusting. And I've always been fond of a business that can, can look back in retrospect and make a statement, uh, something that's happened in the past. And for us, I, it's very clear to see that there were a few pivotal, what I call DNA altering moments that were make or break, lay it all on the line, uh, opportunities for the company to go after. Uh, I remember. Uh, particularly a number of years ago, a situation that occurred globally on on the Internet. There was a a vulnerability introduced to the Internet called Heartbleed in 2014. OpConnect was not personally, uh, you know, affected by Heartbleed directly. We didn't have any vulnerabilities in our system and there was no data exfiltrations. We never got hacked like was happening everywhere. to major companies. Uh, you know, if you had a online log in with the whether it was to an email account or social media account, almost everything was vulnerable. But what we saw as a result were a number of inbound inquiries, uh, testing our systems to see if they were vulnerable. And it was breaking the system. It was causing things to not be able to get out. And that was a make or break moment for us where we had to make a couple of decisions to move forward. 40, 000 customers to a new platform that was protected behind a firewall. We had to do that in the course of a couple of hours, which was unprecedented. That was like a six or a nine month effort that we, we got done in about a little over 24 hours. It's amazing what you can actually Andy: do when you constrain time. Isn't it? Chris: Oh yeah, Andy: absolutely. You tell your team to do something and they're going to tell you, Oh, six months. And you say, no, can you do it in 24 hours? Like, it's just amazing when you layer time onto something. Chris: Yeah. We, we learned that we're best when our backs against the wall. That's when, when the best in us comes out. Uh, you know, and then fast forward a number of years, I think every organization went through this reflective moment as. The reality of the pandemic was setting in quickly and, uh, you know, as businesses were getting shut down and people were getting sent home, you know, we, we look at that very, uh, very fortuitously. We had months earlier made the decision to enable a remote workforce. Everybody had a laptop. We had already fully adopted technology that allowed us to stay connected. Through, uh, back office systems and, and, uh, zoom and teams and, uh, and think chats, uh, chat tools. So it was a seamless transition for us that allowed us to get to a position where we could be not reactive to the situation, but actually helpful to our customers that they were trying to navigate, you know, sending remote employees home and figuring out how to keep them connected. You know, we quickly developed a solution that allowed our customers to send their. cut their employees home using our connectivity so that they could stay connected, get their job done. Every day. So there's there. It certainly has not been smooth sailing, Andy, but as we look back, we are also grateful for those experiences because they're where we stretched and learned the most. We have a saying on our wall that alludes to the fact that stretching is while it might be painful, it's where we learn the most. We believe that learning happens on the edge. And if we can keep our company on that edge of learning and catastrophe, but always stay to this side of it, we're always going to be in a helpful growth position. Andy: Fantastic words of wisdom. Love that. Thank you for, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for giving us a little bit of a history of the company. And I think maybe since we have Five minutes or so left. You could tell us, uh, what's on the horizon. Let's assume you guys got great market share and irrigation. Everybody's using your product. What's Chris: next? You know, I love this question and I love to put it into perspective too. If we kind of zoom out of the business world and just look at what's happening globally, the electrification of everything, uh, connectivity, you know, I knew that we were onto something at OpConnect in the business world. When I got a phone call from my parents saying they have a washer and dryer that needs to connect to the internet and needed help, I thought, okay, there's, there's the rest of the world kind of catching up and making it here. But if we look at fast forward, there's a couple of macro trends that we look at that I think are really important. Number one is the importance of scarce resources. Uh, as a country, for example, uh, it happens to be raining outside for us today, yesterday, we got an entire summer's worth of rain and about four hours, uh, people tend to think of water as free cause it falls from the sky. We know better if we look and step back. It's a scarce resource. We need to manage it appropriately. Where else does that happen? Well, it happens with energy. It happens, uh, in, in a number of, of different, uh, industries. It's going to happen with electricity. So if we can identify these macro trends. That are likely to either get regulated or just out of necessity be managed differently, and we can position ourselves to help facilitate the collection of data to help customers make actionable real time decisions that can be our guiding star on where we take the company next, um, as Thank you The world connects EVs. We're going to have to do that really smartly. There's just not enough electricity to supply. If you were to replace every, every internal combustion engine with electric vehicles today, we would be kind of crippled, if you will, as a nation. So we, that has to be built out as that's built out. It needs to be managed differently. It needs to be monitored. Uh, there may be times where it may need to be routed, certainly needs to be secure. So we know that's a macro trend that we can look at, uh, that will help, uh, drive, you know, not only growth, but meaningful adoption of connectivity and technology that allows us to use our resources better. We look at things like security, all types of applications of security, you know, regrettably, we live in a world where Where that is more important than it's perhaps ever been. There are more and more assets being deployed to more and more unattended locations that are vulnerable to various types of nefarious activity. Those need to be protected. They need to be monitored and, uh, and managed accordingly. So those, those are some of the ways that we try to think about. You know, macro tailwinds that could help guide us long term as an organization. Now, by no means does that mean we're willing to turn our back on some of the industries that we serve today. In fact, our plan is to continue to land and serve those industries long term, be experts, become a trusted household name, if you will. Um, the the OptConnected and the Kleenex of the of the world, if you will. And, uh, and that's our goal to just provide meaningful connectivity anywhere possible. It's great, Andy: uh, great plan and I think you guys are well on the way. I know I certainly trust your devices because I've used them and have experienced with them and the people that I've suggested to use them feel exactly the same way. It's kind of like once somebody tries one, they go, all right, I'm just using this. For all my stuff. I don't, I don't want to have to worry about brand manufacturer, ABCD ease devices. I just want one portfolio with all my devices. So I appreciate what you guys are doing and I appreciate how it is also kind of raising the bar in our industry and providing, you know, more contractors with more access to technology so that they can learn faster and maybe to use your words, you know, run their business on the edge a little bit as well. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. Uh, we are running out of time and Justin, maybe on another, maybe we can do a, a sequel to the second episode and talk a little bit more about some particular, some other industries that, um, that you're involved with that are also, you know, water related, looking Justin: forward to it. Andy, thanks for having us Andy: back. Thank you very Chris: much.

Tanner Weyland:Hello, this is Tanner Weyland. Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi, Justin.Justin:Justin.Tanner Weyland:Hey, hey, no, don't do that. Just kidding, I'm joking.Justin:I'm sorry.Tanner Weyland:It's great to have you. Ha ha ha.Justin:Thank you. It's great to be here.Tanner Weyland:Perfect. So if anyone's new to the podcast, we are going to learn a bit about how to bring our DMing and storytelling to the next level. And today's podcast is kind of a thought experiment. Why don't we see more marriage and families happening, you know, with your players characters? Like, why aren't they starting their own little families and having little kids that they name and train and everything else, right? That's kind of the thought experiment, and finding out if, as DMs, we can do this and make it an enriching and enhancing part of an adventure. First off, Justin, what do you think about this topic?Justin:I think it is an amazing topic. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I'm actually expecting my first child as this podcast releases. My wife's due date is August 4th, so it's like two, a week and a half away. So thinking about families is definitely the top of mind. And so I've been thinking of different book ideas that can involve having a baby or just all sorts of. fun ideas and I think and actually on a different side note my own campaign my players have gotten pretty good like they're pretty high level and it's hard for me to throw a balanced challenge at them without killing them and so I was thinking you know what maybe I'll just give them like a baby and they'll just have to deal with that you knowTanner Weyland:Just do a little bit of just giving them responsibility, a coldJustin:Mm-hmm.Tanner Weyland:hard slice of responsibility and see how they deal with it.Justin:Exactly. I mean, the unfortunate part of doing that would be is how they treat NPCs thus far is not generally good. So I'm kind ofTanner Weyland:No.Justin:afraid, you know.Tanner Weyland:Well, that's perfect. I mean, in a way that kind of speaks to one of the opportunities of, uh, of making, you know, player relationships actually lead to kind of emotional attachment that speaks to it, right? Cause it's like, you can tell different stories if the players feel emotionally connected, because I think a lot of really great characters, players will try and do that naturally, you know, they'll try and be like, oh, let's find the emotional connection. that would make my character actually want to go save this town or save this little girl who got kidnapped or something, right? But not all players are like that, right? And so kind of giving them that natural connection of like, hey, it's your wife, it's your fiancee, it's the girl in the town who you've been spending more time with or your child. I think that that's just a very natural way to get player buy-in. if that makes sense.Justin:Yeah, and I think that can also be a reason why Dungeon Masters might avoid the family just because it might not feel earned, you know?Tanner Weyland:Mmm.Justin:Or you're trying to establish some sort of family relationship with a character, or sorry, not a character, with a player that generally doesn't do much role playing. And I mean, if you do that, there's a big chance that they'll be like, oh hey brother, okay bye, right. not a big payoff.Tanner Weyland:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that kind of leads naturally into what I want to talk about next,...

Tanner Weyland:Hello and welcome to How to be a Better DM. My name is Tanner Wayland and together we're all gonna learn how to make wonderful adventures for our players. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Justin, how you doing?Justin:A little sick, but I'm alive and well, so that's good.Tanner Weyland:I know, I know. Justin and I were gonna have a barbecue with some friends and that's right around the time that my wife started feeling sick. Justin was like, hey, I'm sick. And then the weather got bad. So, you know, the gods above were like, no, you're not having that barbecue. But we're just happy that you're feeling better.Justin:Thank you.Tanner Weyland:Um, so today we're going to actually talk about kind of a general topic and it's something that you could honestly apply elsewhere, but, uh, we're talking about improving as a DM and how you can plan for that. Uh, what do I mean? So if any of you have heard the, uh, the, of the book, seven habits of highly effective people, uh, on the seventh habit, so to speak is, uh, sharpening the saw. At least I believe that's how they phrase it, right?Justin:Mm-hmm.Tanner Weyland:And with that habit, it's all about like, hey, you're not going to improve bit by bit if you're not planning for it and setting plans that will make you successful in the end, right? And now we put out a lot of episodes about like, hey, you can get better in this way or this way or how you speak with your players or communicate or plan. All of that is good and it's fine and dandy, but You know, I think some people and I'm included with this sometimes when I'm trying to get better. I I kind of take the marination approach where I'm like, oh i'll just listen i'll read a bunch of books I'll listen to some podcasts things like that and then I don't actually end up I don't know justin if this happens with you, but like I just kind of hope that i'll through PhotosynthesisJustin:Osmosis. Yeah.Tanner Weyland:osmosis. Yeah, then i'll just get better instead of actually planning. Does that happen with you?Justin:Yeah, 100%. Especially, and it's kind of hard with this type of thing because it's a hobby for most people. And that's where things, especially for hobbies for me, where I tend to be more reactive with my growth and less decisive and intentional. And for more clarification, I believe the term sharpen your saw for this habit. in the book comes from a famous saying, I don't want to misattribute it, but I think it comes from Abraham Lincoln who said something like, if you give me four hours to chop a tree down, I'll spend the first three sharpening my saw. And it's really that idea that by spending dedicated time improving, it should simplify and streamline the actual activity and task itself. So I think this is a great topic to do today.Tanner Weyland:Yeah, I absolutely agree. And so we're going to jump right in about how you can kind of set yourself up for success, uh, so that you aren't stagnating as a DM, but every time your players are like, wow, they've improved, you know, which, and once again, improvement isn't a negative thing. All of us could improve, uh, in different ways. And in the end, it's going to mean that you have a more fun time and you're going to be less stressed as a DM just straight up. So, Justin, how about you? How would you recommend people improve?Justin:So the very first thing I would say to do, and I would probably recommend this to people even outside of Dungeons and Dragons, just as a life skill, practice writing daily. And the reason why I say that is because successful people produce and everyone else consumes. You can spend lots of time reading, but if you spend even a quarter of that writing, you've created something...

Welcome to the newest episode of The Cloud Pod podcast! Justin, Ryan, Jonathan, Matthew and Peter are your hosts this week as we discuss all things cloud and AI,  Titles we almost went with this week: The Cloud Pod is better than Bob's Used Books The Cloud Pod sets up AWS notifications for all The Cloud Pod is non-differential about privacy in BigQuery The Cloud Pod finds Windows Bob The Cloud Pod starts preparing for its Azure Emergency today A big thanks to this week's sponsor: Foghorn Consulting, provides top-notch cloud and DevOps engineers to the world's most innovative companies. Initiatives stalled because you have trouble hiring?  Foghorn can be burning down your DevOps and Cloud backlogs as soon as next week.

Justin:Hi there listener, this is Justin Lewis and I have here Tanner Wayland with me today. Say hi, Tanner.Tanner Weyland:Hi.Justin:And today on how to be a better DM we are going to talk about Sort of a niche topic One that I think a lot of people struggle with without knowing they struggle with so let me paint a picture for you It's session zero right and you've finally gotten all your PCs in the same room We'll say it's a tavern right there sitting at the same table a few of them know each other So you have two over here that know each other two over there and two over there with most groups, your players start saying, oh well my character's mysterious and untrusting of other people and you have to prove yourself to me. Except every player in your party is acting like that. So the question that we're gonna answer today is how do you get your players, or at least your PCs, to start treating each other like friends and to start wanting to travel together and to view themselves as a party? difficult things to do in session zero or in a one-shot, especially if you as the DM don't outright say, you guys have been traveling for a while, you are already friends. So naturally, let's get that one out of the way. The simplest way to do that specifically in one-shots is just to say, you guys are already friends. You have a long history, you don't need to worry about that. That method doesn't really work when it comes to long-term campaigns because the whole point of the campaign your party integrates and becomes solidified and galvanized, right? SoTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:we'll get that one out of the way, but Tanner, any initial thoughts?Tanner Weyland:Uh, my initial thought is that like you were saying, it's not as clean of a process as, as you'd like, it's not as clear cut because not everyone has a fellowship of the ring type situation where they're all sitting, they all gathered for one reason and then they all, everyone who joined it volunteers and it's like, Oh, you have my acts, you know, that kind of thing. Most of the time it's like, Oh, they just happen to be in the same town together. And then this event happens, you know, but a party of orcs attacks the town. believe, you know, we like to skirt over the fact that like, oh, obviously these people band together to go fight the orcs. It's like, not everyone does that. Some people, when they see trouble, they just, you know, they, they get out of town, you know, but, but so that's why the inciting incident is so important. And also you have to have kind of external factors that tie them together. For example, you know, if they are in a town, like let's say that they're there festival, right? And you know, I'll keep with my example and an orc attack happens. You know, instead of just assuming the players are going to fight together, what you could do is have an initial fight in the plaza, you know, or in the town square. And of course, everyone's fighting there because all the players just happen to be there and stuff. But then after that, you could have it be like, Oh, everyone else that wasn't a town like specifically puts you guys together, right? Like inciting incidents like that, you kind of need that initial moment of obligation or obligated partying in order to then later build on that and hopefully make some more connection, if that makes sense. So, I'm gonna go ahead and start with the first one. So, I'm gonna start with the first one.Justin:Yeah, that makes total sense. And actually let's, let's kind of put this into an example. So let's use the example of our homebrew one-shot that we're working on with Rob fromTanner Weyland:Mm-hmm.Justin:New York, Rob Van Auken or, or no, wait, is that his DM name or his real? I think that's his realTanner...

Tanner Weyland:Hello, my name is Tanner Wayland and I, along with my co-host Justin Lewis, are here on How to be a Better DM. How you doing, Justin?Justin:I am good. I'm good. How are you, Tenor?Tanner Weyland:Oh, doing well, doing well. It's a lovely day outside, youJustin:ItTanner Weyland:know?Justin:is.Tanner Weyland:It's great. Here in Utah, it's been winter for 20 years, it feels like. AndJustin:It really does.Tanner Weyland:it's finally clearing up, and we're just gonna get so much flooding, but everyone's happy it's sunny. Ha ha.Justin:That's the truth.Tanner Weyland:Well, anyway, to get going with this, uh, with this topic today, we'll just hop right in. Um, the topic is how to be a DM when you're just busy, busy as all get out. Like how do you make time for it? Um, first off, Justin, has this ever happened to you where you just feel too busy to even meet or prepare or anything like that?Justin:Yeah, yes. I would say most recently it's been that I felt too busy that I wanted a break and I didn't want to actually have my players come over and have the game. I just kind of wanted a break. But I like what you said there, having to make time for it. Because I feel like DMing when busy, the art to DMing when you're busy, that you can do it and one of those is just making more time for it. You know, simple enough, you make it a bigger priority in your life, you get rid of other things. The unfortunate aspect with that is that it's a game. Like it's a hobby,Tanner Weyland:Yeah.Justin:you know. So if you are attempting to push out family matters or work or you know, religious obligations or social obligations, I don't know, I would maybe reconsider and try some of our other methods we'll talk about rather than stop working.Tanner Weyland:Yeah. No. Yeah. I totally hear you because if there was something on the chopping block, I think for a lot of people, it would be, you know, running dungeons and dragons, frankly. And, and,Justin:Yeah.Tanner Weyland:you know, I think just as an initial disclaimer on this episode, if you feel overburdened by your DMing, like you are absolutely entitled to stop, you know, to take a break, a longer term break. the kind of person who's like, Hey, I think I can if I could keep it going. And I really like it. If I change some things, that's kind of what this is for. Um, now like, I'll be honest, like there have been times like, uh, in the same campaign, I had to both, uh, at one point stop it, but then before then, uh, when I was in school, I had to learn how to deal with it during the school year versus summer, right? this was when I was in college and And you know, I think that it was actually an enlightening experience And I think this is what you'll learn too Is that you know, we all wish we had plenty of time to prepare for our sessions We all wish we could do like three four-hour sessions every week, you know but the fact is you know, sometimes you don't and it makes you actually kind of fall back on what's the core of Right? Like for me, and this was kind of my first tip, I guess, we were doing pretty long sessions. We were doing like three, sometimes four hour sessions. And my wife was just like, hey, Dan, you got a lot of other stuff you're trying to do. And then you always, she pointed out that I often complained about being short on time. AndJustin:Hehe.Tanner Weyland:she's like, maybe don't do it as long. And initially I was like, oh, but what will they think? these stupid reasonings in my mind. But then I just did it. I was like, you know...

Gamers on their way to a convention run afoul of violent criminals on the run.  Can they use their "skillz" to survive? [warning - some violence, language, and mature situations] Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Abby - Beverly Poole Mark - Brian Lomatewama Justin - Mathias Rebne Morgan Brianna - Lyndsey Thomas Tyler - Michael Faigenblum Clark - Brandon O'Brien News Report - Gwendolyn Gieseke-Woodard Man - Bill Hollweg Music of DARKEST OF THE HILLSIDE THICKETS!  used with permission Show theme and Incidental Music:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Recorded with the assistance of Ryan Hirst of Neohoodoo Studio Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a van on a road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?" _______________________________________ EXIT STRATEGY Cast: Mark - Game Master, in a wheelchair Abby - strategy girl Justin - the driver, Mark's brother Brianna - nurse, dating Tyler Tyler - wiry LARPer, dating Brianna Clark - a criminal Thug - another criminal SOUND     FOOTSTEPS OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a car on a stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND      INSIDE CAR NOISES SOUND     Music plays on the radio SOUND     "BING" FROM THE DASHBOARD SOUND     Justin turns down the stereo JUSTIN     We're riding E.  [up] Eyes peeled for a gas station, everybody! MARK     Hey, Justin, remember when it used to be sooo cool to cross the state line? JUSTIN     Yeah - some things just lose their charm as you get older, little bro. MARK     And can drink legally in your own state... ABBY     Don't drink and game.  It dulls your edge. JUSTIN     You've got enough edge for all of us, Abby.  BRIANNA     [slightly off, giggles] I would too. TYLER     [slightly off] That is so great.  You are so great. ABBY     You do realize we can hear you? JUSTIN     Keep it clean back there.  I'll lose my damage deposit on the van if it comes back stained. BRIANNA     Ew!  We were just-- TYLER     [defiant] I was just telling Bree that if she ever got possessed by a demon, I would totally kill her. BRIANNA     [squeaky] Isn't that sweet? ABBY     [baffled] Yeah.  [whispered] What do you think brought on this declaration of undying love? JUSTIN     Tyler brought his DVD player.  I think they're watching Evil Dead. ABBY     Oh. [that explains it] MARK     You guys are all going to help with the "Super Five" tournament, right?  I can count on you? ABBY     Well-- MARK     Well? ABBY     [hesitant] I was checking, and the final round of the "AfterBlast" championship is in the same time slot. MARK     [excited] You really think you have a chance? ABBY     Hell yeah.  I plan to kick ass and take names.  MARK     That rocks.  JUSTIN     I-- I noticed you were the only - um - ABBY     Discernibly female? JUSTIN     Yeah, that - name on the semi-finals roster.  ABBY     Yup.  Time to represent. MUSIC JUSTIN     Pit stop! MARK     Man, you are this close to losing your deposit. JUSTIN     Shit.  Your chair's packed! BRIANNA     I got you, Mark.  SOUND     DOOR SLIDES OPEN, SHIFTING SOUNDS AS SHE GETS OUT SOUND     FRONT DOOR OPENS BRIANNA     Come on, then. TYLER     [teasing, going off] No groping my girl, now. MARK     Hey!  My hand slipped.  Once. BRIANNA     Girl. [snort]  I am a woman. [grunts as she gets Mark on her back]  OK, hold on.  Tyler, got the door? TYLER     [off] Getting it! SOUND     QUICK FOOTSTEPS ON CONCRETE SOUND     DOOR OPENS. MEN'S ROOM SOUND     FLUSH, STALL DOOR OPENS MAN     Hey!  You can't be in here! BRIANNA     Puh-lease.  I'm a nurse.  Almost.  [sarcastic] And you should get that looked at. MUSIC AMBIANCE     NIGHTTIME ROAD, VERY QUIET MUSIC VERY QUIET ON THE STEREO JUSTIN     [quiet] Hey Abby? ABBY     [quiet, tired] Hmm? JUSTIN     Just wanted to see if you're awake. ABBY     Really?  Nice of you to check. JUSTIN     Well... I'm not sure how much farther it is to the motel, and I was starting to fade a bit.  Help keep me on the road? ABBY     [half yawning] Sure.  What's on your mind? JUSTIN     Any chance you and I - you know - sometime? ABBY     [half a laugh]  I've sworn a blood oath not to date any man who can't beat me in a fair game of AfterBlast. JUSTIN     Really? ABBY     Something like that.  No offense, OK?  You're nice.  But we're kind of different worlds. JUSTIN     I used to game--  ABBY     Used to.  You traded in your dice for the corporate world. JUSTIN     It's not that bad-- [sudden change]  Whoah. ABBY     What? JUSTIN     Nothing.  Just - there's headlights behind us.  They weren't there a minute ago. ABBY     Must have come round a corner.  SOUND     CREAK, TURN ABBY     [turned to look] Hmm.  How fast are we going? JUSTIN     Why? ABBY     They're catching up.  Should I wake everybody? JUSTIN     Well...  if there's a crash, they're better off asleep.  Relaxed.  It's a fact - why drunks walk away more often-- ABBY     It's still coming.  Can we get off the road?  JUSTIN     There just isn't any place to go!  The ditches are ... gaping black chasms! ABBY     What's our speed? JUSTIN     Seventy.  So far. SOUND     GROWLING ROAR, GETTING CLOSER ABBY     How much can you push a minivan? JUSTIN     Don't know.  It's a rental. ABBY     All right. [thinking]  Turn off the headlights. JUSTIN     What?  ABBY      There's a good moon - the road is straight as far as I can see right now - can you hold the wheel straight while you're blinded? SOUND     ROARING REVVING APPROACHES JUSTIN      I... guess-- yes. SOUND     HEADLIGHTS TURN OFF JUSTIN     [heavy breathing] ABBY     Once our eyes adjust, we can look for a turnoff - in the dark, with the headlights, we won't see it until it's too late.  JUSTIN     Does that work? ABBY     I don't know.  Yes!  There, to the left, a road. JUSTIN     We're going too fast! ABBY     Start the turn early, and run in at an angle.  It should work.  MARK     [half asleep] Yeah, the roll factors are considerably less-- JUSTIN     Roll factors? MARK     "Street Wars," core manual.  The turn gauge modifiers. JUSTIN     Whatever, here we go! SOUND     SCREECH MUSIC AMBIANCE     OUTSIDE SOUND     TICKING OF THE ENGINE MARK     I'm suitably impressed. JUSTIN     Thanks.  Me too. ABBY     It worked! JUSTIN     A flat tire-- ABBY     Just one. MARK     --is not bad, all things considered. ABBY     [encouraging] Besides you missed the ditch, and the car didn't even flip. MUSIC SOUND     ON THE ROAD AGAIN TYLER     Doesn't this whole thing remind anyone of a movie? JUSTIN     Movie?  What, Texas Chainsaw Massacre? ABBY     Wo!  We do have the right carload for leatherface. MARK     Hey, Justin, don't pick up any strangers, kay?  I don't wanna be the first to die. TYLER     No....  OK, think.  A brother and sister in a car, in the middle of nowhere-- BRIANNA     [helping] In the middle of the day-- TYLER     Run off the road by a huge spooky truck--?  Hmm? MARK     That wasn't a truck.  ABBY     It wasn't? MARK     While you guys were watching the road, I watched it go by - It was big and square-- TYLER     A truck. MARK     No.  Better than that - I saw words on the side. BRIANNA     A truck? MARK     [sigh] Nope.  I must have made a perfect success on my perception roll, though - it was an armored car.  JUSTIN     In the middle of the night?  In the middle of nowhere? ABBY     Radio.  There must be something. SOUND     RADIO ON, SURF CHANNELS, STOP ON AN AD MARK     I like N-P-R. ABBY     News channel, bub. [Moment just listening.] JUSTIN     OK, enough with the ads - give us some news. TYLER     If this was a movie, the minute we switched over, the news bulletin would come on right then.  Cheesy, eh? BRIANNA     It's just a genre convention - a way of condensing all this boring time spent listening to-- JUSTIN     Shh. SOUND     TURNS VOLUME UP NEWS     ...the third armored car hijacking this year, and the second one with fatalities.  Three security guards were injured in the attack-- JUSTIN     Wow.  We should call someone. ABBY     Already on it.  SOUND     CELL PHONE BEEPS ABBY     Damn.  No reception. NEWS     --two are in critical condition.  Pursuers lost the car in a high speed chase when the hijackers realized they were being tracked and dumped the onboard GPS at the side of the road.  JUSTIN     Well, the motel must be close.  They'll have a phone. NEWS     Police believe that one of the hijackers may have been injured in the attack... SOUND      CLICK RADIO OFF - no music here MARK      I thought we were supposed to reach it by ten? JUSTIN     Well, with all you small bladdered people, we had a lot more potty breaks than I allowed for.  And, o'course, getting run off the road...  Changing the tire... TYLER     There was that. BRIANNA     Think your Uncle Joey'll give us a discount for coming in so late - half the night, half price? TYLER     I'll ask him.  [yawns] In the morning, though. MUSIC SOUND     CAR, SNORING FROM ALL BUT JUSTIN SOUND     BUMP, THEN CAR PULLS TO A STOP JUSTIN     [trying to stay awake noise]  Holy crap, I think we're here. ABBY     [waking]  Mmm?  Oh good... JUSTIN     One moment and I'll go and check in... ABBY     No, I'll get it.  Gotta pee anyway.  Small bladder.  [yawns] All that. JUSTIN     [receding] I didn't mean.... SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS AND SHUTS SOUND     FOOTSTEPS ON GRAVEL, DOOR, BELL JINGLES ABBY     Hello?  Hello?  SOUND     RINGS DESK BELL SOUND     DOOR OPENS SOMEWHERE ABBY     [calling]  Look, I'm sorry to be coming in so late!  We had car trouble.  Can we get a room?  [beat]  Hello?  SOUND     FLUSH OF A TOILET ABBY     [needs to pee] Oh, jeez.  [deep shaky breath]  Hello? SOUND     DOOR OPENS CLARK     Hey.  Sorry about that.  I was catching a few.  You want a room? ABBY     Yeah, my friends and I - if you have a room with a couple of queens, we'll be fine. CLARK     Uh, sure.  Probably.  [looking around]  Nobody really here, tonight. ABBY     Could we have the one out on the end, then? CLARK     Don't see why not... um... ABBY     Says here it's room 14. CLARK     There you go.  [unconvincing laugh] So tired my eyes won't focus. SOUND     KEY SLAPPED ON TABLE ABBY     How much? CLARK     Oh, pay when you leave.  ABBY     Hmm.  Are you Joey? CLARK     Joey who? ABBY     [sharp intake of breath, then faking being ditzy]  Sorry - you look a lot like the cousin of a friend of mine.  CLARK     I get that a lot. SOUND     FOOTSTEPS, DOOR OPENS ABBY     Oh, can I use your bathroom?  It's kind of an emergency. CLARK     [too sharp] No!  I  mean, sorry - no can do.  Absolutely against policy.  Too bad you didn't get a room closer in, eh? ABBY     [flat, suspicious] Yeah. SOUND     DOOR SHUTS, JINGLE MUSIC SOUND     HOTEL ROOM DOOR SHUTS, FEET STUMBLE AROUND, BAGS DOWN, ETC. SOUND     BODY FLOPS ONTO BED JUSTIN     I am dead.  As driver, I call a bed.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR ROLLS MARK     I'm with you.  SOUND     FLUSH BRIANNA     I suppose Abby and I should share the... other...? I thought she said the room would have two beds? SOUND      DOOR OPENS ABBY     That clerk didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.  Did you park right next to the door Justin? JUSTIN     [half moan] Yes.  Why? ABBY     I have a bad feeling about all this.  TYLER     Any chance it has something to do with all the spooky movie talk in the car? BRIANNA     And the guy who ran us off the road? ABBY     Maybe.  JUSTIN     Well, unless you're ready to drive - and pay for the extra insurance - We're not moving from this spot until I wake up. ABBY     But the clerk - there was something wrong there.  Really.  God, for a chance at a spot hidden roll. MARK     [more awake] Describe him. BRIANNA     [groans]  Come on - it's beddy-bye time! MARK     Abby's got good instincts, Bree.  You know how hard it is for me to fool her. ABBY     That's just in game.  I'm not-- JUSTIN     [half asleep, but trying]  But you are the only girl-- BRIANNA     [half-hearted] Woman. JUSTIN     --to make it into the ... strategic final thingee-- ABBY     Ok.  Shit I'm tired.  [long deep thinking breath]  He wouldn't let me use the bathroom.  He didn't try and hit on me.  Didn't know which number room was the one on the end.  Didn't ask how many "we" were.  Didn't know which rooms have queen beds.  Didn't ask for a credit card. TYLER     So? He's dead tired too.  Big whoop.  It's [looks] 2 freaking 55 in the morning. MARK     Jeez, folks, we've had sessions which went long past 3!  What's wrong with you? JUSTIN     [muttered into the pillow]  Getting old. MARK     Yeah.  You 25-year old over the hill codger, you.  Abby, what would you do now?  ABBY     What? MARK     This is the scenario.  Right here.  What would you do? TYLER     Sleep. BRIANNA     Seconded. JUSTIN     [Snoring] MARK     Assume it's unlikely we can drive out of here - at least not conveniently.  How would you secure the room? ABBY      [perking up]  We could set watches-- TYLER     [mumbled] Screw you! ABBY     I can't watch all night.  Adrenaline is only good for so long. MARK     That guy struck you that bad? ABBY     Yeah.  I'm probably just-- MARK     Let's assume otherwise.  We have a map - of sorts - on the door there.  Take a look. ABBY     I - well, I got the room on the end, since we'd have a better chance of seeing or hearing anyone coming.  MARK     [chuckles] ABBY     I can't help it.  I'm already in strategy mode.  Ok, the room has windows at the front and back and a bathroom that abuts the next room.  No windows in the end wall.  If we could keep an eye either side-- SOUND     FEET ON CARPET, CURTAIN PULLED ASIDE, THEN WHIPPED BACK INTO PLACE. ABBY     Oh, shit. MARK     What? ABBY     God, I hope no one saw the light.  MARK     I'll turn it off.  Let them think we're asleep.  SOUND     CLICK OF SWITCH MARK     Now? ABBY     It's the truck - car - whatever!    The one that almost ran us off the road! MARK     [gasps]  Are you sure? ABBY     Come and look! MARK     I believe you.  We need everyone if this is a real situation.  Shit. ABBY     There's woods - cover - right out back.  If Tyler was up, he could go look. MARK     He's not going to be up any time soon. ABBY     I know what will-- I'm going to take a chance and get my other bag from the car.  I'll see what I can see.  MARK     I'll try the phone-- ABBY     No! MARK     Why? ABBY     Switchboard - I saw a switchboard in the office.  MARK     Shit.  Major "notice," though.  Good one. SOUND     DOOR OPENS MARK     Abby? ABBY     I'll be careful. MARK     [encouraging] I'm glad it's you. SOUND     DOOR SOFTLY CLOSES MARK      Shit.  SOUND     A moment of just snoring MUSIC      CREEPS IN, JUST A BIT MARK     [snorty, "almost fell asleep" noise]  Abby?  What time--?  Shit.  SOUND     WHEELCHAIR SHIFTS MARK     [urgent hiss] Justin!  Wake up, dammit! JUSTIN     Wha--? MARK     Wake Up! SOUND     DOOR OPENS QUICKLY, FEET COME IN, DOOR SHUTS AGAIN MARK     God!  You nearly gave me a heart attack! ABBY     Sorry - I spotted someone out in the parking lot, just after I got in the van, and I didn't want to move again until it was clear.  JUSTIN     [almost awake] What's going on? ABBY     I'll get Tyler up. MARK     Go for it.  I doubt you'll have much luck. ABBY     Ah, but I have a secret weapon - I always pack a sixer with me to gaming cons.  SOUND     SLOSHING OF LIQUID MARK     [almost drooling] Energy shots. ABBY     Un-huh.  It may take a minute or two, but we'll get everyone up and running. MUSIC TYLER     All you had to do was shout "Bob! Bob is coming!" and I woulda been up and running without the taste of ass - Bob was the demon in the larp last weekend, and man was he-- MARK     Shush.  EVERYONE     [Murmurs of assent] MARK     Let's assume this is not a drill. EVERYONE     [a bit undecided murmurs] ABBY     I know there's something odd here.  I feel it. JUSTIN     Are you sure you're not just jittery about the tourney? ABBY     Probably am, but that doesn't make me think I'm wrong. BRIANNA     [Still groggy] What do you want us to do? MARK     Tyler, are you up for something that could be really dangerous? TYLER     Hell yeah. BRIANNA     [cautioning] Tyler? TYLER     Well, how dangerous? MARK     Abby? ABBY     Out the back window of the room, I think I saw that armored car that nearly ran us down.  It's parked in a dark spot.  If it's really the one, and there's any chance it's the same one that was stolen, there's a good chance we've walked in on a den of thieves.  We need to know.  Can you get within range of it and have a look? TYLER      Gimme a second. SOUND     FEET. CURTAIN MOVES BRIANNA     When you say "really dangerous"--? MARK     They already killed a couple of guys during the holdup.  I can't see them hesitating at shooting a few more bystanders. BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Bree, I've Larped with him, and if anyone can really sneak, it's Folemon. BRIANNA     But that's his character! ABBY     In live action games, there are things you either can do or you can't, and sneaking is‑‑ TYLER     [voice slightly different - "in character" as Folemon]  I spy the brigands' carriage.  I will hence and reconnoiter. BRIANNA     Be careful. TYLER     Fair maiden, with you to return to, I cannot fail.  [kiss on hand]  Douse the lanterns, lest my shadow betray me! MUSIC SOUND     LIGHT TAPPING NOISE, WHICH GOES ON THROUGHOUT JUSTIN     What are you doing? ABBY     What does it look like?  I'm checking for trap doors. JUSTIN     You're joking. BRIANNA     Didn't you see that movie Vacancy?  There was a trapdoor in the bathroom floor.  ABBY     That was so annoying.  They were so stupid about that. JUSTIN     About what? ABBY     Did you see the movie? JUSTIN     Well, no. ABBY     They could have easily blocked the hatch.  But they didn't and ended up fighting guys popping up out of it. BRIANNA     They couldn't block it - they tried.  There wasn't any heavy furniture. ABBY     [derisive laugh]  What do you call this? SOUND     DULL THUMP JUSTIN     A mattress. ABBY     Have you ever had to move one?  From a dead lift?  And if that's not enough, the trapdoor was right next to the tub - you just soak the damn thing and no one - not even Schwarzenegger-- BRIANNA     Well, back in his prime-- ABBY     Is going to be able to shift it. JUSTIN     You ...actually ...thought about this? ABBY     [matter of fact] It's what I do.  SOUND     KNOCKING BRIANNA     Lights out - it's the door.  SOUND     SCUFFLE OF MOVEMENT BRIANNA     Tyler? ABBY     Folemon! TYLER     [muffled] I return triumphant! SOUND     DOOR OPENS AND QUICKLY SHUTS AGAIN, LOCKS TYLER     And, I have a prize! SOUND     TAP ON SOMETHING METAL SOUND     LIGHT CLICKS ON JUSTIN     What the--? MARK     No, that's good.  If we can get to the authorities, we can prove we saw the damn thing. JUSTIN     You coulda taken a picture - you think they're not going to notice a missing license plate? TYLER     [chuckling, full of himself] I think they'll have other things on their mind. ABBY     Oh, god, what did you do? TYLER     I had my thieves tool handy-- JUSTIN     What? BRIANNA     Pocketknife. TYLER     So I hobbled their horses. ABBY     We need to go now. JUSTIN      You did what? BRIANNA     He let the air out of their tires.  Tyler, sweetie, speak English so I can stop translating. TYLER     Hey, what?  They won't be able to come after us-- ABBY     But they will know someone was spying on their truck.  They might not notice the plate, but--  aagh! TYLER     I was... um... in the zone?  My character would have-- MARK     Understandable.  Let's deal with it.  Were there any other cars out there? TYLER     Not out back.  MARK     Justin? JUSTIN     What? MARK     Any other cars out front? JUSTIN     I didn't notice.  Sorry. MARK     See what happens when you give up gaming?  You lose your edge.  You remember anything Abby? ABBY     Not in the parking lot.  I can take a look. MARK     Hold off.  What do we have for weapons, if it comes to that? JUSTIN     Jack Shit. ABBY     Torchiere for a club.  BRIANNA     No - no heft. ABBY     We can wire the doorknob as a last resort - give someone a bitch of a shock. TYLER     Shh! [They all do.] SOUND     SLIGHT CRUNCH, MIGHT BE FOOT ON GRAVEL MARK     Posts. SOUND     VERY QUIET MOVEMENT ABBY     Uh-uh. BRIANNA     shit. MARK     The front? BRIANNA     Movement. ABBY     Window?  Door?  BRIANNA     Distraction.  [starts moaning, loudly - very sexy] ABBY     Stay out the way of the window.  BRIANNA     Uhh!  [whispered] Watching. [Up] Ohh! TYLER     [joins in] JUSTIN     You won't be able to hear-- ABBY     Neither will they! SOUND     WINDOW SLIDES OPEN WITH A PROTESTING SQUEAL ABBY     Shit.  If we're going out this way, we're doing it sharp and hard. MARK     Out front? TYLER     [still groaning] BRIANNA     Someone's right outside.  Ohh! Just a shadow.  Ohh!  Peeping or about to try something.  Ohh! JUSTIN     This is insane.  This does not happen in real life. MARK     Look, bro- you can play along, and worst that happens is you look like an idiot with the rest of us, or you keep saying it can't be real and maybe take a bullet.  Why not play along? JUSTIN      Shit.  What do you need me to do?  I am not joining that party. [Moans continue intermittently] MARK     Can you see what's at the top of the closet? Usually if there's access to an attic space, that's where it would be. JUSTIN     Sure. MARK     And you're tall enough. JUSTIN     No problem.  [suddenly serious] If this is some psycho situation, you know I won't let anyone get you, right, bro? MARK     Shithead.  Get everyone else out first!  I'm the burden - now get in the damn closet. SOUND     CLOSET DOOR OPENS ABBY     You're not a burden.  MARK     Physically, I'm a drag on the party. ABBY     Mentally, you're the only one keeping us together.  So you can just shut up. MARK     OK, shutting. BRIANNA     He's making a move. MARK     Shit.  SOUND     KNOCK ON THE DOOR BRIANNA     [loud] Ooh!  Oh, shit!  Huh? TYLER     [loud] What the fuck? MARK     Abby?  Where are we? ABBY     Tyler, get behind the door. Ready to slam it if you gotta. TYLER     Check. SOUND     KNOCK AGAIN ABBY     Brianna, the torchiere, stay below the window, trip anyone coming in. BRIANNA     On it. SOUND      KNOCKING INSISTENT ABBY     [trying to make up her mind] Door - wall - wall - door.  Shit! [deep breath, then calling out] What? SOUND     SHIFTING FURNITURE CLARK     You all right in there? ABBY     What? CLARK     I heard a noise. JUSTIN     [whispered] See?  Normal. ABBY     No.  At the very least, he's peeping.  No way he'd hear anything from the office.  [up]  Everything's fine.  We were watching a movie.  MARK     Good one. JUSTIN     Oh, this is idiotic. SOUND     WALKS, UNLOCKS AND FLINGS OPEN DOOR TYLER     Hey! ABBY     No! SOUND     GUNSHOT, BODY DROP JUSTIN     [screams in pain] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS CLARK     [screams in pain] ABBY     Bree, can you get the lock, without getting in front of the door - it's crap, but-- BRIANNA     Done.  Justin - is he--? SOUND     LOCK FUMBLED SHUT JUSTIN     [sounds more annoyed than hurt] I'm shot. ABBY     At least now we know it's not a drill.  SOUND     GUNSHOT, WINDOW SHATTERS ABBY     Down! SOUND     BODIES FALL, WHEELCHAIR RATTLES AND TIPS MARK     Get him.  I'll cover Justin. SOUND     CAUTIOUS STEP ON BROKEN GLASS ABBY     [scream, distracting him] SOUND     FEET TURN ON THE GLASS, GUNSHOT ABBY     Bree! BRIANNA     Yaaaah!  SOUND     THUMP - BODY DROPS CLARK     Yowtch! ABBY     Sit on that bastard.  Tyler, check for backup? SOUND     HEAVY CRUNCH ON GLASS CLARK     [Whimper] TYLER     On it. SOUND     CAR STARTING TYLER     Oh shit - he's in for a surprise.  Front's clear. JUSTIN     You seem to all be ignoring the fact that I've been shot. MARK     I've been applying pressure. JUSTIN     To my mouth. MARK     oh, yeah, I was supposed to be stopping the part that got shot, not the part that shot off, right. ABBY     Brianna, swap - you take a look at Justin, see if we can move him.  I'll hold down the ...fort. TYLER     Fart. [Snickers all around.] CLARK     [Moans, then grunts when Abby turns him over] SOUND     CRACKLE OF GLASS UNDER HIS BODY ABBY     Need something to tie him with.  TYLER     Gotcha.  Thieves tools to the rescue again. SOUND     RIPPING FABRIC - GOES ON FOR A WHILE BRIANNA     Tyler, toss me your flint and steel. SOUND     CATCH, THEN FLASHLIGHT COMES ON BRIANNA     Looks superficial.  I was hoping I knocked you down quickly enough, but I wasn't sure. JUSTIN     I've been shot. BRIANNA     Yes, but not badly.  I'll bandage it in a second. TYLER     Here's your fifty feet of rope... ABBY     Check the back? TYLER     I am fleet enough to be in all places at once. SOUND     ENGINE STOPS TYLER     Oh. ABBY     [grunts as she ties a knot]  OK, shithead.  Talk. CLARK     What? ABBY     Well, we have your gun.  And a pocketknife.  You want to choose which one I do you over with? CLARK     What?  I was just-- ABBY     Shooting in through our door? CLARK     I thought you were - TYLER     Shut up. ABBY     No, let him talk.  I want to hear this. CLARK     Nothing. ABBY     Oh, well.  How many friends you got out there? CLARK     None. ABBY     So that's Christine out back?  Or are you Knight Rider? CLARK     Ow!  No - No!  Stop! JUSTIN     Let me.  I'm the one he shot. CLARK     No!  There's just the two - and B-Ball's shot. ABBY     Anyone else? JUSTIN     Is this what you were doing? CLARK     OWWW!  No, no one! ABBY     What about the real clerk? CLARK     Oh - um - ABBY     Right.  We need to dump this guy somewhere. TYLER     Out back?  ABBY     Chances are, we can get out the front. JUSTIN     Chances?  I don't want-- ABBY     No worries.  Tyler - eyes on the back until I signal, OK? TYLER      Sure thing. BRIANNA     What now? ABBY     We do what we have to do.  Mark, you ready to take a chance? MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE - DOOR OPENS SOUND     WHEELCHAIR BUMPS NOISILY OUT THE DOOR ABBY     No shots.  Good.  We're moving out.  Justin, you're behind me and the chair - get your ass into the car and start it.  We'll pile in, peel out, and worry about belts and seats later. JUSTIN     Are you sure this is safe? ABBY     Nope.  Tyler?  Got the rear? TYLER     Got it. ABBY      Bree, you're first in.  I'll cover you. SOUND     GUN CLICKS READY BRIANNA     Check.  Hold tight! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR GRINDS ALONG THE GROUND TYLER     He's coming!  ABBY     Everyone - Move!  Justin - get it in gear! JUSTIN      Yeah... SOUND     JINGLE OF KEYS, THEY DROP TO THE GROUND JUSTIN     Shit! ABBY     Dammit!  Bree, get your ass to the other side of the car! SOUND     HEAVY FEET RUNNING ON GRAVEL TYLER     I'll-- SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     You'll go.  Move it.  I'll cover you.  [solemn] Don't fumble the keys. TYLER     I won't. SOUND     RUNNING FEET TAKE OFF ACROSS THE GRAVEL, snatch up the keys. SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [Gasps as she shoots]  Damn, that's a kick. SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     CAR DOOR OPENS ABBY     Yessss! SOUND     ABBY SHOOTS SOUND     SIDE DOOR SLIDES OPEN ABBY     [yelling] Stop shooting at the crip, you scumbag!  You'll be sorry! SOUND     WHEELCHAIR MOVES SLOWLY, ODD FOOTSTEPS AS ABBY CROUCHES BEHIND IT ABBY     Nice to have friends, isn't it? SOUND     GUNSHOT ABBY     [yelling] You really should stop that!  THUG     [evil laugh] ABBY     I told him. TYLER     Come on! ABBY     Bye-bye SOUND     WHEELCHAIR PUSHED, ROLLS SOUND     GUNSHOT SOUND     GRUNT OF PAIN [CLARK] SOUND     RUNNING FEET SOUND     CAR REVVING SOUND     JUMP SOUND     GUNSHOT, PINGS OFF METAL OF CAR TYLER     [grunting to pull her in] Come on! SOUND     CAR MOVES, FEET DRAG BRIANNA     Here. SOUND     GRAB, DRAG ABBY     [grunting] SOUND     DOOR SLAMS SOUND     TIRES SPIN IN GRAVEL, CAR ZOOMS OFF ABBY     [sigh] OK, whose lap am I in? MARK     Mine.  Sorry about that. ABBY     Hey, we're all here, no one got shot-- JUSTIN     I did! MARK     And we had to dump my chair... ABBY     No one got killed, and we're back on the road.  I'm gonna feel like shit for the tourney, but who gives a crap?  [giggles] [All join in the hysterical relieved laughter.] MUSIC SOUND     OUTSIDE ROAD - MORNING NOISES ABBY     [waking up noises, suddenly awake with a gasp] MARK     [whispering]  Shh.  It's ok-- SOUND     RUSTLE AS SHE TRIES TO SIT UP ABBY     Was it - It was a dream? MARK     Hell no.  But once you passed out, we figured you deserved it.  Let you sleep. ABBY     Oh... MARK     Hey Justin?  When's the next bathroom? BRIANNA     And a phone. JUSTIN     Like anyone's gonna believe us.  BRIANNA     You did get shot. TYLER      And I still have my trophy. SOUND     PING AGAINST METAL OF LICENSE PLATE MARK     Shh.  Abby's out again.  ABBY     Hmm?  [rousing herself] Like hell!  Justin?  Crank the music!! END  

How to Trust Again – Justin Searls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8KmhPa5Oc) Why has trust become so rare in the software industry? Developers don't trust their own ability to program, teammates don't trust each other to write quality code, and organizations don't trust that people are working hard enough to deliver on time. This talk by Justin Searls is a reflection on the far-reaching consequences distrust can have for individuals, teams, and organizations and an exploration of what we stand to gain by adopting a more trustful orientation towards ourselves and each other. 01:57 - Justin's Superpower: Having Bad Luck and Exposing Software Problems 04:05 - Breaking Down Software & Teams * Shared Values * Picking Up on Smells to Ask Pointed Questions * Beginner's Mindset * RailsBridge (https://www.bridgetroll.org/) 12:49 - Trust Building * Incremental Improvement * What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How successful people become even more successful by Marshall Goldsmith (https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1846681375/ref=asc_df_1846681375/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312118059795&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6049806314701265278&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9006718&hvtargid=pla-525029467829&psc=1) * Credibility * Reliability * Intimacy * Selfless Motivation * Authenticity * Detecting Authenticity * Laziness Does Not Exist (https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e312d01) 29:14 - Power Politics & Privilege * Leadership Empathy * Safety * Exposure; “Don't Cross The Net” * Masking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masking_(personality)) 42:06 - Personal Growth & “Bring Your Whole/True Self” * RubyConf 2019 - Keynote: Lucky You by Sandi Metz (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5WWTvHB_sA) How to Trust Again – Justin Searls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8KmhPa5Oc) This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Software is broken, but it can be fixed. Test Double's superpower is improving how the world builds software by building both great software and great teams. And you can help! Test Double is hiring empathetic senior software engineers and DevOps engineers based in the United States and Canada. We work in Ruby, JavaScript, Elixir and a lot more. Test Double trusts developers with autonomy and flexibility at a remote, 100% employee-owned software consulting agency. Looking for more challenges? Enjoy lots of variety while working with the best teams in tech as a developer consultant at Test Double. Find out more and check out remote openings at link.testdouble.com/greater. That's link.testdouble.com/greater. JACOB: Hello and welcome to Episode 270 of the Greater Than Code podcast. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I'm joined with my co-panelist, Mae Beale. MAE: And I'm joined with another panelist, Chelsea Troy. CHELSEA: Hi, I'm Chelsea and I'm here with our guest, Justin Searls. He's a co-founder and CTO at Test Double, a consulting agency on a mission to improve how the work writes software. His life's work is figuring out why so many apps are buggy and hard to use, why teams struggle to foster collaboration and trust, and why it's so hard for organizations to get traction building great software. The Test Double Agents work with clients to improve in all of these ways and more. Hi, Justin! How are you today? JUSTIN: Hello. I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. CHELSEA: Of course. So we like to kick off our sessions by asking you, what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? JUSTIN: Well, one superpower might be that I like to give counterintuitive answers to questions and [laughs] my answer to this would be that I have really, really bad luck software and hardware. My entire life has just fallen over for me left and right. Bugs come and seek me out. In college, I was in the computer science program and so, I was around a lot of computers, like Linux data centers and stuff, and I think I went through either personally, or in the labs that I used 20 hard drive failure years in 4 years. People started joking that I had an EMP around me. So I started to just decide to lean into that not so much as an identity necessarily, but as a specialty of root cause analysis of like, why do things fail? When I see a bug, what does that mean? And to dig in to how to improve quality in software and that then extended to later in my career, when I was working on delivery teams, like building software for companies and institutions. That meant identifying more root causes about what's leading to project failure, or for teams to break down. Now I'm kind of moving, I guess, popping the stack another layer further. I'm starting to ask what are the second and third order consequences of software failing for people having for others? I see this in my family who are non-software industry family members, when they encounter a bug and I'm watching them encounter a bug, their reaction is usually to think that they're the ones who screwed up, that they're stupid, that they just can't figure it out. I'm literally watching software that somebody else wrote far away just fail and that's just no good, right? So I think that the fact that I just so easily expose problems with software and sometimes the teams that make it almost effortlessly, it's really given me a passion and a purpose to improve and find opportunities to just make it a little bit better. MAE: When you talk about software and/or teams breaking down and you're mentioning bugs. So I'm assuming that that's mostly what you mean by breaking down? I'm curious if you have kind of a mental model of software always breaks down these four ways. Teams always break down these three ways. I don't know if you have any reference texts, or things that you've come across as far as like a mental model for what is the world of breaking down? How do we characterize it? JUSTIN: That's a great question and I feel like having been basically doing this for 15 years now, I should be prepared with a better answer. I've always resisted building I guess, the communicative version of an abstraction, or a framework for categorizing, simplifying, and compartmentalizing the sort of stuff that I experience. In some ways, my approach [laughs] is the human version of machine learning where I have been so fortunate, because I've been a consultant my entire career, to be exposed to so many companies and so many teams that that has developed in me a pattern recognition system that even I don't necessarily understand—it's kind of a black box to me—where I will pick up on little smells and seemingly incidental cues and it'll prompt me to develop a concern, or ask a pointed question about something seemingly unrelated, but that I've come to see as being associated with that kind of failure. I think your question's great. I should probably spend some time coming up with quadrants, or a system that distills down some of this. But really, when I talk about bugs, that is a lagging indicator of so many things upstream that are not necessarily code related. One of the reasons I want to be on the show here and talk to you all the day is because I've been thinking a lot about trust and interpersonal relationships starting with us as individuals and whether we trust the work that we're doing ourselves, or trust ourselves to really dive in and truly understand the stuff that we're building versus feel like we need to go and follow some other pattern, or instructions that are handed to us. To kind of try to answer your question more directly, when I see teams fail, it usually comes down to a lack of authentic, empathetic, and logical targeted relationships where you have strong alignment about like, why are we in this room? Why are we working together? How do we best normalize on an approach so that when any person in any role is operating that is consistent with if somebody else on the team had been taking the same action that they would operate in the same way so that we're all marching in the same direction? That requires shared values and that requires so many foundational things that are so often lacking in teams as software is developed today, where companies grow really fast. The pay right now is really, really high, which is great, but it results in, I think a little bit of a gold rush mentality to just always be shipping, always be hustling, always be pushing. As there's less time for the kind of slack that we need to think about—baking in quality, or coming back to something that we built a couple weeks ago and that maybe we've got second considerations about. Because there's that kind of time, there's even less time sometimes for the care and feeding that goes into just healthy relationships that build trust between people who are going to be spending a third of their life working together. CHELSEA: You mentioned picking up on little smells that then lead you to ask pointed questions. I think that's really interesting because that kind of intuition, I've found is really essential to being a consultant and figuring out how to ask those questions as well. Can you provide some examples of situations like that? JUSTIN: Yeah. I'll try to think of a few. I had a client once that was undergoing—this is 10 years ago now—what we called at the time, an agile transformation. They were going from a Waterfall process of procuring 2 year, $2 million contracts and teams to build big design upfront systems that are just thrown over a fence, then a team would go and work on it, and then it would go through a proper user acceptance testing onto something more agile, I guess. Adopting Scrum and extreme programming, interpersonal process, and engineering practices. That was just meant to be more, I guess, iterative of course, innovative, collaborative, more dynamic, and able to let the team drive its own destiny. All that sounds great and you walk into the team room and they just invested millions of dollars into this beautiful newly restored historic building. I sit down with everyone and I look at them and they've got the cool desks at the time and cool open office because those were still considered cool. I sat down and I couldn't help, but—[chuckles] this is real silly. I couldn't help but notice that there was a pretty strong smell, [laughs] body odor throughout the whole room and it wasn't one person. I'm not picking on somebody here. It was that the interpersonal relationships were so afraid, the fear of failure was so strong, and the deadline pressure that had been exerted from on high was so overwhelming that there was no safety in the room. People were just scared at their job all day long and it was having a material impact that only an outsider who's walking in at 2:00 PM on a Friday detect because everyone else had acclimated. So I walked in and I was like, “Well, what do I –?” [laughs] Obviously, I'm not going to be like, “Hey, it stinks in here.” I've got to figure out a way to understand why do people feel unsafe and maybe I didn't have that sentence go through the voice in my head, but it definitely put me on a path towards to maybe the less privileged people in the room, the people who are not the managers to understand what's really going on, what pressures are they under? MAE: I love that the example includes legit real smell. So many times, especially in our industry and part of what this podcast is counteracting, is getting in touch with the fact that we are people and humans. Anyway, I love that you brought [chuckles] that home that way. Also, I wanted to say from earlier, I wasn't trying to corner you into expecting to have a philosophy. I thought you might and it was worth asking. But I recently got asked a similar question about my management philosophy and which authors do I appreciate most, or something. I've been a manager for 25 years and I'm like, “Uh. I don't know. I figure out what is needed and then I deal with that.” I don't understand how to answer. So I just want to give some – pay you back and apologize. I didn't mean to get you – [overtalk] JUSTIN: Not at all and it becomes one of those you know it when you see it. I struggle with this a lot because somebody introduced the concept years ago of beginner's mindset to me where sometimes if I'm a beginner at something, the best person to help me is not the expert—the person who's been doing it for 20 years. It's somebody who's just a few hours, or a few days, or a year, or two ahead of me because they can still remember what it felt like to be where I am right now. Because I talk a lot, because I tweet a lot, because I show up in a lot of places, and I have an outward facing sales role to potential clients and candidates, I meet a lot of people who come to me and they're like, “How do I learn how to code?” And I'm like, “I can tell you the 15-year version of this story, but it's probably going to be really depressing.” I've taken as a responsibility to like try to—and I need to do a much better job of this—be armed with either resources, or people that I trust, that I can refer folks to so that I'm not totally leaving them hanging. MAE: I love that and yes. Speaking of teaching people how to code and what you said, there's a name for it that I'm forgetting about being a teacher. If you are closer to the student, you actually are a more effective teacher. So there's just two comments. The first one is I'm a part of RailsBridge I helped found the Southeast regional chapter. So if anybody, any listeners out there still want to learn how to code, or are having that same, I don't know how to tell you about my [chuckles] zigzag story and ideally, they wouldn't all be depressing, [laughs] but I'm sure they all include some real low moments. But RailsBridge, which is bridgetroll.org, has recurring events where people can go all over the country and obviously, in pandemic times it's not as much in person, but yeah. And on the comment about teaching and when you mention talking to the people with the least privilege in the room, I'm just really sensitive and appreciative of your sensitivity to power politics and how much they impact so much of what is happening and trust. So for anybody out there who's being asked to help new people and you feel like you're still the new person, you're probably in a better position to help. So just want to offer some encouragement there. I have personally found a lot more confidence in helping people who are just behind me and that anytime you're teaching, you're learning. So just want to put those in. I love that actually your answer, instead of a quadrant, is really just the one word of trust and I appreciated the ways in which you were mentioning trust can be different things. Trust in what you're building. Trust in who's asking you to do it. Chelsea asked for a couple examples and I interrupted. So I apologize, but what are some trust building exercises that you have encouraged, or examples? Maybe even continuing that same story. Six months later, was it a fresher air in there and what are some things they did to make that happen? JUSTIN: Yeah, that story, like so many teams and companies in our industry, didn't undertake the redemption arc that I wish I could convey. I think in fact, to see a big picture problem and the desire to connect that with a big picture tidy solution, a future state where it's all rainbows and unicorns and everyone really getting along well. Sometimes that sets, for me personally and when I see consultants who are less experienced, who can see that end state in mind and they know maybe the top three hit list of stuff that needs to happen to help that organization get to where they need to be. We can sometimes set the bar so high for ourselves in terms of expectations of like, what does it mean to help them become better, that we can't help, but lose sight of the value of just incremental improvement. If I can just help restore relationship between two people on a team. I had one client years and years ago, [laughs] they were also undergoing a pretty big transition and they brought me in a – I think that what they thought they were hiring me for was to be a test-driven development coach to teach them that particular practice of TDD. They got, instead on day one, there was a room of 30 interdisciplinary cross-functional teams—some developers, some non-developers, and stuff—and I could just tell that they were like, it was a big epic rewrite from a Perl codebase that, I think they were moving to no JS and Angular as well as a chewing of cloud infrastructure at the same time, as well as Agile software practices at the same time. They were overwhelmed, they've seen this fail before, they felt a ton of pressure from the business, and they didn't even really understand, I don't think, the future business model. Even if they were successful, it wasn't clear this was going to solve systemic problems for the company. And I'm like, “Well, I can teach you all TDD. [laughs] But instead what my commitment to you all will be is that six months from now, you'll either have been successful and learned all of these things and built the thing as the business has asked you to do and then the business takes off, or I will have helped equip you with skills and ways of thinking about this industry and our work that will set you up to get much better jobs next time.” Again, the company didn't totally come together. It didn't take off like a rocket ship. The team was successful in the rewrite, which doesn't happen very often. But then you saw almost a diaspora of dozens of highly skilled people—and this was in Central Ohio—who then went to venture backed startups, some went to big, established enterprise-y kind of companies, some left the region and went elsewhere. That turned into, if I had to count, probably eight, nine additional Test Double clients [laughs] down the road where they came in and they could spot in a minute, this is a way that an outside perspective, who is here to help us at a moment of tremendous need, can move the needle just a little bit. By setting expectations realistically, being humane about it, and focused on what's best for the people involved because at the end of the day, all companies are is collections of humans. That was, I guess, more my orientation. CHELSEA: So Justin, I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I appreciate what you just shared. I worked at Pivotal Labs for a while—original labs when it was sort of a generalist's enablement. JUSTIN: Sure. CHELSEA: Very heavy on that kind of thing. One of the things that we ran into relatively frequently was similar to what you've just described wherein one of two things would happen. Either the clients were successful and there was a vastly improved, I guess, software delivery culture among the people that we were working with, or if that didn't work out, then there were individuals who took to it very well and had gained variety of skills that allowed them to go elsewhere. It happened enough times that then we would have to establish trust with potential new clients around this whole additional access, which was effectively, is this going to cause a diaspora of all of these engineers, designers, and PMs that I've managed to scrape together for this project? Do you find Test Double ever facing that, or how do you address either beforehand if product owners are aware of it, or after it happens, how do you address that with clients? JUSTIN: That's a fantastic question. Pivotal Labs was one of the companies that we looked at. We started Test Double 10 years ago. I was at the time, just starting to speak at user groups and conferences and I spent a lot of time with the people at the Boulder office at Pivotal Labs. Great people. I really appreciated the focus and the rigor and in fact, made to answer a question earlier about process, or abstraction about like, “Hey, boil it down for me.” Pivotal Labs sold a very branded, very discreet process for like, this is the way to build software and, in a sense, some of the decisions that we made when we started Test Double were a response against that. Just to say we trust the people closest to the work to make the right decisions based on tremendous experience and skills. Frankly, as we get bigger and more successful, having some somebody like me at the top of an organization who only talks at the beginning of a client relationship, which is the moment that we know the least and I've got the least amount of context, for me to go and say, “Well, this is the way that we got a test,” or whatever it is would just be ineffective and inappropriate. So to answer your question, Chelsea. Fortunately, our brand power, isn't nearly as strong as Pivotal Labs so no client has ever come to us in advance with that as a question to say, “Hey, I'm worried that you're going to train our people in this particular methodology and then they're going to leave for higher paying jobs,” or something. That's never come up in advance. In fact, one of the things that we talk a lot about is that because our consultants join client engineering teams to work with them inside of their own process, using their own tools, and their own system is we just try to be model citizens of somebody on that team. We trust our clients like, “Whatever your process is, it's apparently working for you. So let's just try it and if we have ideas for how to make that better, we will listen, we'll write them down.” But then only once we've built trust and rapport with the people on that team, will we start to share, “Hey, I've got a rainy-day list of a few things that you might want to try.” What that's actually done is has a detoxifying effect where from a context of high trust, the incongruity, the distrust, the kind of backchannel frustrations that our people pick up on because we're kind of “in the trenches” with our client folks, we're able to have multiple pathways into that client organization to help make it a better place to work. We got one of the best poll quotes that I've ever seen on our website recently. One of our clients is Betterment. They're a great financial management firm in New York where it's kind of an autopilot savings vehicle. The director of engineering, Katelyn, there said that she saw on the teams where testable people were deployed, attrition actually went down and I think it's because we help those teams to perform better. An old friend of mine named Leon Gersing, he used to have a thing he'd say. He'd said, “You can either change where you work, or you can change where you work.” Meaning you can either make the place that you're at better, or you can go find gainful employment elsewhere and we're in the make the place where people work better business, wherever possible as a first avenue. MAE: You're reminding me of a book that I'm reading right now called What Got You Here Isn't Going to Get You There. Are you all familiar with it? JUSTIN: I was so proud of my wife, because she asked for that on Audible earlier this week because I'm the person with the Audible credit and I'm like, “Oh, this is quoted in business leadership contexts left and right and all over the place. So it'll give us a touchstone to talk about.” MAE: Yeah. Well, the TLDR is so much of especially management focused and leadership focused thought is about things that you should do and this book is probably along your lines, Justin of giving the counterintuitive answer. This is here's 20 things that you might want to consider not doing and then replace it with the good behavior because that is such a stretch in real life to actually do that. It's how about you just pick a couple of these that you're a repeat offender and just stop. Just try to not do it. That's the main first thing and I've found that, a refreshing take on how to think about how to guide in ways that are building more trust and offering more safety. So definitely recommend that book. I don't know that it came out of this book, but the person who recommended it to me, my VP Scott Turnquist, who is amazing, shared that there are really four categories of things that can help build trust and it's definitely all done incrementally. So picking up on that word you said earlier, Justin, too. But the four kind of axes are credibility, reliability, intimacy, and selfless motivation. If you can demonstrate those recurringly, that is how to establish and/or course correct into a state of increased trust. So anyway, that was partly why my original statement was like, do you have this down? Because I've heard some things lately that I've been thinking about. JUSTIN: I really appreciate your perspective there and it makes me feel better because one of my commitments in life is to never write a book. But if I were to write a book, I'd probably have to come up with a tidy quadrant, a Harvard Business Review two by two, or something like that to I guess, support the good work at the people at CliffsNotes and Blinkist to boil down years' worth of work into a 13-minute podcast. I think that the advice as you expressed, it is completely valid and there's one thing that I think is a core ingredient to trust. Trust of ourselves, trust of people that we work with directly, and then trust of leadership and the people who run the organizations that we're a part of. The hardest, in my opinion, is authenticity. If you're not, I think you said credible. If you combine credible, intimacy, vulnerability, those are really useful words to prompt what I mean when I say authenticity. If I'm talking to somebody and I can lock eyes with them and I believe that what they're saying is what they actually feel and it's their true self and they believe it, then all sorts of other background processes in my head of trying to read the tea leaves of what's going on here, all the passive analysis I might do to try to understand what's the subtext that this person's operating from. That's just the form of kind of armor, or a guard that it depletes my cognitive ability to talk to the person. Authenticity is a signal that we pick up on as humans and this is why it's a miracle that we have video chat in this era and it's why I really relish one-on-one in-person interactions when I can have them. Authenticity is a signal that I can drop that guard a little bit. It's that I can really look and really listen to what the person's saying and take it at face value. The problem with just saying, “Oh, okay, well just be authentic. Just be your true self,” is that that is useless advice and way more likely to trigger somebody's defenses, or their self-doubt. When I think about authenticity in the context of a team, or an organization is that the people who are maybe not in a position of power, people who report up the chain, if they don't come across as authentic to their leaders, the leaders should not look at that as a failing of the person, but as a failure of their ability to figure out how to promote and draw out authenticity from the people who report to them. Maybe they don't have safety in the room to speak their true mind. Maybe they feel like the things that make them different from the other people that they work with are a liability, or a risk and so, they can't really bring their true self to work. It's the leader's job, when they spot inauthenticity, rather than go on a hunt like a political backchannels to try to figure out why is this person lying. What's under here? Figuring out what is it about the person's context, the environment, kind of the system that they are operating in. What could possibly be an explanation for why I can't develop an authentic connection with this person? And until you run out of every single possible explanation in that investigation, including self-reflection of what is it that I'm individually doing and how I communicate to this person that's getting in the way. Only then is it really useful to start thinking about maybe this person's not a good actor, maybe they're being duplicitous, or something. Because once you've hit that button, it is really hard to go back. So when we talk about authenticity, we often talk about the individual's responsibility to present it, to be it. If you can fake authenticity, then you can do anything, right? That is advice. It's fine. I hope that everyone feels the safety. Like I'm a cishet white dude who's pretty powerful in my little corner of the small pond. I have no problem just spouting off and being my true self and so, I should just tell other people to do that too. That's not fair. I think that what is better advice for people who are maybe not in positions of power is to be really good at detecting authenticity. When you detect authenticity and people are making their true selves known to you and you're feeling a connection with them, whether they're peers, or managers, spend more time with them, invest into those relationships, and use those people as anchors of trust. So that when you're failing to make that connection elsewhere, when you have doubts about others in the organization, you can have more points of perspective on how to best address it. MAE: I read an article yesterday that says, “Laziness Doesn't Exist.” That's the title of it and it essentially says that that same thing of what's the context in which this is happening. People don't procrastinate for fun. In fact, it usually takes more work and starting from a place of what shoes are you in, but I especially love the in what way am I impacting that person's ability to be themselves? Also, I must have said the word authenticity, because this list is credibility, reliability, intimacy, selfless motivation, but authenticity and credibility in all of these things do also have to do with the thing that I loved you bringing up about identity, power politics, and what happens and your environment is not allowing you to be credible. So another way in which people can as good peers, mentors, managers, and above can do is in what way am I bolstering these people's credibility? So always flipping it back to how are we the perp [laughs] and that's very similar to social justice, racial justice. The more we see how we are perpetuating and disenfranchising, regardless of our identity, that's where there's some hope for the humans in my mind. CHELSEA: Yeah. One of the things that I appreciate that you've both brought up, Justin and Mae, is the degree to which power gradients play a role in the way that we deal with these things. There are demographic power gradients with regard to race, with regard to gender. There are also power gradients with regards to our position in the company, with regard to technical privilege, with regard to our level of skill, with regard to the size of our network. We also, I think live in this individualist culture that has a tendency to place the responsibility on individuals to do what they can to resolve. For example, what you were saying, Justin, about how we effectively coach people to just be authentic. Maybe that coaching works fine in some context, but that's a subset of the context in which we're asking people to apply it and asking individuals to resolve this from the bottom up sometimes as opposed to looking for the systemic reasons why this is a thing that has to be solved in the first place. I'm curious as to whether you have thoughts on what a person can do, who finds themselves in a position of power, in a position of leadership in a company, for example, to address those sorts of questions with other folks who are working there. JUSTIN: I think one thing that can be helpful – and I realize your question is about what can a leader do. One thing that can be helpful is for those leaders to empathize and put themselves in the shoes of people who might not have the same privileges as you described and what would it take to—I'm waiting outside my area of expertise here—would be to think about what are the things that are in a given person's sphere of direct control, what isn't, what am I setting up, and what am I communicating in terms of expectations that I have of them? An example that came up a lot in our industry was the number of drink up events in tech in the early 2010s where there was sort of an assumption that everyone likes alcohol and when people in public drink alcohol, good things happen, which turns out isn't true, but it can also be the case. There are invisible expectations that we communicate because I'm a big fan of granting people autonomy to solve problems in their own way, to approach work the way that they feel is best. Our company has been remote from day one and a big part of that was we want people in control of everything from where they work to their home network, to the computers that they use. Because when I had that control pulled away from me in the role as developer, it just sapped my motivation, my drive, my engagement, my sense of control over the stuff that's right in front of me. When I now in a role of influence over other people, whenever I speak, I have to think about the negative space of what are the expectations that I might be conveying that are not explicit. I need to be careful of even expressing something like hobbies, or shows that I like, or stuff – especially in this remote world, we want to develop connectedness. But a challenge that I keep running into is that our ability to find mutual connection with people about stuff other than work, it rides the line really closely of communicating some other allegiance, or affiliation whether that's we talk about sports a lot because that's an obvious one, but even just interest in hobbies. So I find myself – and I realize Chelsea, I'm doing a really poor job, I think of answering the question as you asked it. I find myself only really able to even grapple with like what can leaders do to set the tone for the kind of environment that's going to be inclusive and safe for other people by really digging in, empathizing with, calling up, and dredging up what their own experience was when they were not in a position of power. If I have a secondary superpower, is I had a real rough start to my career. I was in really, really, really rough client environments that were super hostile. I had a C-level executive at a Fortune 500 company scream at me until his face was red in a room one-on-one with a closed door on a regular basis. The sorts of stuff that developed callus on me, that I look back at a lot of those experiences and I'm like, “I learned a bunch.” It's supercharged my career as an individual because it strengthened me. So the challenge that I have is what can I take from those really, really harsh experiences and translate them for people who are coming up in a way that they don't have to go through the same trials and tribulations, but that they can take away from it the lessons that I learned. And for me, it's all about not just safety for the sake of safety, but safety by which myself and others can convey the useful growth that people want to see in themselves, their skills, and their abilities that isn't diluted. That can convey the truth, the difficulty, and the challenge and how hard – Programming is really, really hard for me and I've been doing it for a long time. A lot of stuff about this is just not easy. The relationships are not easy. Like you're going to run into situations where there's massive differences between where people stand on stuff and what those perspectives look like. Navigating that is hard enough without adding a whole layer of toxicity and hostile work environment. So what's a way to promote that learning environment without just totally insulating somebody from reality. That's been, I think a challenge and attention that I see a lot of other like-minded leaders in tech trying to figure out how to create. MAE: You reminded me of a meme that someone shared with me that says, “What doesn't kill you can just regulate your nervous system, trap itself in your body, steal your sense of self, make you wish it did.” I don't know what makes you stronger means, but let's stop glorifying trauma as a life lesson we've been blessed with. [chuckles] Definitely along the same lines. JUSTIN: Yeah. Relatable. MAE: There's a thing, too about putting oneself in another's shoes and this is a place where I'm someone that can read people really well, but that makes that tricky. Because I start to trust my sense of it and I have a similar architecture going if I don't feel like I'm getting the whole story. So what's the read between the lines thing. But without a lot of exposure to a lot of very different people, and most people have not had a lot of exposure to a lot of different people, when they put themselves in the other person's shoes, they come up with a different conclusion. So I will feel hurt by people who do things that were I to put myself in their shoes would not have done that to me, or if they did, it's because of X, Y, Z about who they are, or what they think, or what is their whole context and environment. All of that is there's a tactic that we use at True Link Financial called “don't cross the net.” So you say and claim the story I tell myself about that is dot, dot. When leaders, who haven't had a lot of exposure to a lot of different people and a lot of different ideas, try to empathize and find themselves limited in that, there are other options which include one of the things you said earlier. Making it so that people can say the things on their mind so whether, or not that's persons being their authentic self this is a whole another level, but creating a place where we expect that we're all messing up and that it's okay to talk about uncomfortable things is one of my real soapboxes. It's totally okay. Yes, we are all racist. We are all sexist. We are all homophobic. There is no way to not be as a result of being in the culture we're in. We could do things to mitigate it. We can do things to name it. But if we just start from yes, we're all failing. This for me, it lowers the stakes because so many people feel that if someone brings up, “Hey, that's kind of sexist,” or “This is not supporting me in this way,” or “My credibility is not being seen because of this.” In the absence of already, yo, we're going to talk about some negative stuff sometimes, that's an introduction of negativity to the “positive, happy rainbow unicorn workplace” that you were talking about before. So one of my hopes and dreams is that we get some clouds to rain on the land to allow things to actually grow [chuckles] and this includes, yo, we are not perfect. And we are definitely doing things we don't intend all the time. JACOB: That made me think about authenticity again, because sopen about imperfection. I'm a neurodiverse person so I probably am autistic. If someone were to say to me at work, “We really want you to bring your authentic self,” probably the thing I would think is you don't want that person, [laughs] or at least without getting to know me a lot better. There's a concept called masking where it's basically, there are behaviors and traits that are exhibited by neurotypical people that just come naturally to them. By learning the hard way, I've sort of learned to do them, even if they don't feel natural at all like making eye contact, smiling at people when talking, things like that. So I think that complicates authenticity for me, which is that I'm intentionally not hiding, but choosing what parts of myself to show and what parts I just don't want to bring to work. [laughs] I don't have a clean answer for that, or a solution to that, but I think that just complicates things for me. JUSTIN: I thank you so much for sharing that and I think it's a really important perspective to bring, which is I talked earlier about sure, plenty of people's true, authentic selves, even if they were to bring them, they might be in a job, or in a space, or in a team where that wouldn't be understood as such, or appreciated, or literally safe. It's hard to tell people, “Hey, you should feel safe” when the truth when spoken would be an unsafe thing. That would be setting people up for risk, for danger, and it would be a seed of distrust, which is what we're all here to talk about avoiding. So I really appreciate you sharing that. When I talked about empathy earlier, Mae, in my brain, all that really comes through it is the E-M part of that word, like the root for emotion. I never really have been able to assume that I can get somebody's context, their perspective, and the moment that they're in into my brain well enough to role play and do a re-dramatization in black and white, sepia tones and slow motion, like this is what Justin would do if he was here. That's one reason why we trust people at our company to just do the work, because we know that they're going to have such a richer amount of data and context than we'll ever have. But one thing that I'm grateful for is that I've been able to experience what I feel like is a pretty broad range of emotion. [laughs] I'm a real emotionally volatile person. I go super high highs, super low lows and I'm just like, it's how I've been. I can't help it. So when I'm empathizing with people, I'm just trying to get in the mindset of how do they likely feel right now so that I can understand and try to do a better job, meeting them where they are. A big part of that is learning there are differences and so Jacob, of course, it's like if I worked with you, I understand that it might not be productive to bring all of yourself to work all the time. But I would hope to develop a trusting relationship with you where you can share enough so that I can know what are the boundaries that are going to be productive for you, productive for me so that we can make a connection and it's something – To make this a little bit more personal. I don't know where my career is going to go next. I founded Test Double with my partner, Todd. I was only 26 years old and we've been doing this for 10 years now. 2 years ago, we embarked on a journey of transferring a 100% of the equity of the company to our employees. So we're on an employee stock ownership plan now, it's ESOP, or any of the stuff, it is complicated because it's well regulated. We have to have outside auditors, a valuation firm, we have a third-party trustee to make sure that our people and the value of the company is transferred appropriately, treated right, and managed well. So it's naturally raised, especially in my circle of friends and family who realize that, this means that there's not an end date, but there's a moment at which I can start thinking about what my life is going to be next. The people who knew me when I was 25, 26, who look at me now, it's not that I've changed radically, or my identities are radically different, or anything. It's like, I am a very different kind of person than I was at 26, than I was at 20 before I got into this industry. I have changed in healthy ways and in maladaptive ones and in response to maybe drama and stress such that the ideal retirement that I would've imagined earlier in my life looks a lot different now where I've just kind of become habituated. I'm a really, really different person than I used to be and I'm grateful for that in almost every way. I feel like I've grown a lot as a person, but the thing about me that I really look at as an area of change is that I just work too much. [chuckles] I'm online all the time. I'm very focused on – I've optimized productivity so much that it's become ingrained in me. I understand that whatever I do next, or even if it's just changing my role inside my company, I need to find a way to create more space for slower paced asynchronous thought and learning how to, in the context of a career, not just bring your true self – I'm kind of curious Chelsea, Mae, and Jacob's perspectives. That true self might be changing [laughs] intentionally. There's a directionality and the growth isn't just learning new skills necessarily, but it might be changing core things about ourselves that will alter the dynamic of the relationships that we bring to work. CHELSEA: Yeah. I have two thoughts on that, that I can share. The first is the extent to which bringing my true self is a productive thing to do at work. So for example, my career prior to tech, I did a variety of different things to make ends meet, really a wide variety of things. I graduated directly into one of the bigger recessions. I won't tell you the exact one, because I don't feel like being aged right now, but [chuckles] it wouldn't take too much research to figure it out. I was trained to do a government job that was not hiring for the next 18 months at a minimum. I needed to figure out what to do and was trying to make ends meet. In my first year of employment, I got laid off/my job ended/something like that on four separate occasions in my first year of work and that resulted in, I do not trust when managers tell me that everything is fine. I have not ever effectively and that is something that I don't foreground that in work discussions for a variety of reasons. I don't want to scare other people. I don't want them to think I know something that they don't know about what's going to happen because I don't usually. When managers tell me, “Oh, everything's great, we're doing great,” all that kind of stuff, I just don't listen. I don't. My decisions do not take that's statement into account and I find that that's the kind of thing that I think about when I'm asked to bring my whole self, my authentic self to a place is that there are things that just sort of similar to what Jacob is saying. I'm like, “Trust me, trust me on this you don't want that.” So that's kind of the first thought in that realm. The second thought that I have around this is the degree to which work should really encompass enough of our lives to require, or demand our authenticity. So I had a variety of full-time jobs in tech and then I quit one of those full-time jobs and I was an independent consultant for a while bolstered chiefly, and I was lucky for this, by folks who had read my blog and then folks who had worked with me when I was at Pivotal. So the consulting effect of people knowing what it's like to work with you is real. That experience felt very different from a full-time position insofar as at the external validation of my work was naturally distributed in a way that it's not in a full-time position and I found that distribution is extremely comforting. Such that even though I now have a full-time job, I also continue client work, I continue teaching, and I continue writing and doing workshops and those kinds of things. This is not the chief reason that I do that, but one of the nice things about it is the diversification of investment in the feedback that I'm receiving and validation that I'm receiving. In order to do that, I have an amount of energy that I put to each of the things in my life and part of it is work, of course. But another reason that I think it works for me is that I no longer have to expect all of my career fulfillment from any one position, from any one employer, from any one place, which has worked out very well because I think that we pedal this notion implicitly that you bring your whole self to work and in return, work provides for your whole career fulfillment. But most places really kind of can't and it's not because they're terrible places to work. It's just because the goals of a company are not actually to fulfill the employees, they're just not. That's not the way that that works. So it has allowed me and I think would allow others to approach the role that a given employment situation plays in their life, from what I think is a more realistic perspective that ends up helping keep me more satisfied in any given work relationship. But it doesn't necessitate that I – I guess, for lack of a better term, it limits the degree of emotional investment that I have in any one thing, because I'm not expecting all of my fulfillment out of any one thing. But I think that to say that explicitly sometimes runs at best, orthogonal and at worst, maybe contraindicates a lot of what we talk about when we talk about bringing our whole selves to work and looking for those personal connections at work. I think there is pragmatic limit past which we maybe impose more guilt than we need to on ourselves for not doing that. JUSTIN: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think Mae used the phrase “lower the stakes” earlier and I think that one of the problems with authenticity, the phrase “bring your whole self-trust” is that the stakes are super high because it seems like these are bullion contracts between parties. For example, you said that you don't trust managers. If I was filling out a form, like a personality inventory, or something, it's like, “Do you trust managers?” I'd say no and I think 90% of people would say no. It's sort of the economy right now. I think the economy approval rating of is the economy good, or bad is at 23%. But individuals are saying at roughly 60% levels, that they are individually doing okay in this economy. I would say the same. Like, do I trust my manager? Oh, hell yeah. I completely trust my manager right now. And to lower the stakes even further, when I've been talking about trust, it's not so much about where do I find fulfillment, or who what's my identity, or who am I being, it's about a snap orientation. It's the most immediate sphere. “Oh man, this PostgreSQL query is really slow and I can't figure it out.” Is my snap reaction, or my orientation to think, “I believe in myself enough to dig into this to figure it out”, or is it doubt myself and just kind of get lost in a sea of a thousand Stack Overflow tabs and just slowly lose my whole evening? When in a team, maybe working with them and we were in planning, or something, or maybe we're in a higher stake, let's say, a code review session and somebody makes a comment about something that I did. Is my snap reaction to doubt their motivations and think “Ah, they're just trying to passive aggressively shoehorn in their favorite architecture here,” or this is politics and gamesmanship, or is my snap reaction is to be like, “Nope, let's try to interpret the words that they're saying as literal words and take it on its face”? Like I said, I'm a highly emotionally volatile person, the weather vane shifts with me all the time and sometimes I can control it and sometimes I can just merely observe it. But the awareness of the out has been really helpful to understand [chuckles] when I hear a leader say something about the company, my reaction is I think that they've got ulterior motives and that they are probably not speaking in literal truth. If that's my snap reaction, I'm just trying to communicate that as that's a potential blind spot. Because I have a long rut of past companies that I worked for that had mission statements and vision statements that were kind of bullshit and that no one really believed in, that were just in a bronze plaque on a wall, or whatever. That's baggage that I carry. I just have to acknowledge that baggage and try to move forward. The best I can do is just be present in every moment that I'm in and to understand when I have a snap reaction, am I oriented towards what might lead me to a good outcome, or a bad one? MAE: Holy moly, so many amazing things have been shared today and Jacob, especially kudos to you for walking us into a deeper level of authenticity. Love it. Thank you. I'm, to answer some of your questions, Justin very similar to Chelsea in that tech was not my first rodeo. I didn't become a programmer until I was 37 years old and I am now 45. I'm totally fine with aging myself. Prior to tech, I did put a lot more of my identity in my job and I would usually do that job pretty much all of the hours possible and I've always worked for mission driven organizations. A lot of the things that we're talking about as far as job fulfillment and whether, or not it's a good environment, or if it's a toxic environment, there's a lot of privilege in what we're talking. My parents were paper mill workers and it was not pretty. They had me when they were 19, so they didn't have another option. That was the highest paying gig in our region and they had no education. So it was never an option to even change that. So I am someone who wants to put my whole self into what I do. It's a very working-class mode and gaining identity through what it is I'm able to do. It's also a pretty capitalist [laughs] mentality that I work to move around. But as a manager, when I am a manager, or in management, or managing managers, I'm never encouraging this everybody needs to bring their whole self to work. Although, I had this really instructive experience where one person truly did not want to have any of their self at work, that they truly only wanted to talk about work at work. We're not a family, nicely nice. I don't want to crochet together, or whatever. That is the most challenged I've ever been as a manager because my natural things are always to figure out what people need and want, and then amalgamate that across the group and see how we can do some utilitarian math and get it so that people are being encouraged in ways they would like, they are not being disadvantaged, and they have space to say when that's happening. But even still, I'm always going with the let's be buddies plan and it's not for everyone. So figuring out how to not have all of your eggs in any basket, no matter how many hours the job is, is definitely a tactic that has been successful for me. But what happens is I then am involved in so many things [chuckles] in all of the moments of life. So I still do that, but I do it by working more, which isn't necessarily the best option. The thing about the mission that I just wanted to pivot for a second and say is, we are no longer in a world where we allow failure. This is a little bit back to my earlier soapbox. The energetic reality is whatever anybody's mission statement is, that is the thing they are going to fail at, like the seamstress never has the best hemmed clothes. So when we write off anyone, or any company based their flawed attempt at the mission, we're discounting that flaws exist, [chuckles] contradictions exist. It's about where are we orienting and are we incrementally moving toward that, or away from it and not in this moment, are we this thing that we have declared because it's more of a path is how I see it than the declaration of success. JUSTIN: Yeah. Thank you so much for that, too. Because I think that one thing we didn't touch on is the universe – and we're talking a Greater Than Code podcast so it's software industry adjacent at least. The universe of people who got to stay home during this whole pandemic. The universe of people who are “knowledge workers”, or “white collar”, especially if you look at the population of the world, is vanishingly small. There was a season in my life where I was the person that you just described managing, where I just viewed myself as I was burnt out. I always wanted to be a mercenary. I had this mindset of I show up at work. “You want some great code? I'll sling you some great code.” Like I was a short-order cook for story points and feature development and that was the terms, right? I didn't want to bring my feelings to work. I didn't want to make friends with people because then God forbid, it would be harder to leave. I didn't have that available to me as a capacity at that time, but I went long enough and I realized it's not that I was missing something, or not being fed in some way by not having this emotional need filled at work. It was that I was failing to acknowledge when you say privilege, the literal privilege, that I get to wake up in the morning and think for a job [laughs] and the impact that I can have when I apply all of the skills, capabilities, and background asynchronous thoughts that are not literally in my job description. When I can bring those things to bear, I'm going to have a much, much bigger impact because what am I except for one person thinking and staring at a matted piece of glass all day, but somebody who is in a small community, or a group of a bunch of people who are in the same mode. So when I'm in a meeting, I can just be the mercenary jerk who's just like, “Hey, I'm just doing this,” and feeling like that's an emotionally neutral thing. When in fact, that negativity can be in an emotional contagion that could affect other work negatively, or and I'm not exactly – My friends who know me, I'm a stick in a mud, I'm a curmudgeon, I'm super negative. I complain constantly and I have taken it upon myself to strive to be a net increase in joy in the people that I talk to and that I interact with at work. Because it is a resource that is draining all of us all day long on its own and it needs to be filled up somehow. I have the capacity right now to take it upon myself to try to fill that tank up for the people that I interact with. So I want to touch on that because I just think it's super lucky that I get to work on a computer and talk out of a screen all day long. If I didn't have that, we wouldn't be having this conversation, I suppose, but I'm just here to make the most of it, I guess. MAE: I love that. And you reminded me of Sandi Metz's closer, Lucky You. JACOB: Tell us about it. MAE: She gave the closing talk a couple years ago and it's called Lucky You and it goes through how did we all come to be sitting in this room right now and what about redlining? What about the districting? What about all of these things that led to us to experience being here as lucky? I know you weren't saying it in that way, Justin, but it reminded me of that piece, too, which is relevant, but the talk is completely amazing and I definitely recommend it. JUSTIN: I think I mentioned it once before. The thing that brought me and our marketing director, Cathy, to think that this would be a great forum to talk a little bit about trust at work is that we're about out to – and I think that actually the day that this podcast publishes is the day that we're going to publish a new conference talk that I've prepared called How to Trust Again and we're going to post it to Test Double's YouTube channel. So we might not have a direct link for the show notes necessarily, but it'll probably be at the top of that as well as the top of our blog when the show goes live. I hope that anyone [laughs] who enjoyed this conversation will also enjoy the kind of high paced, frenetic, lots of keynote slide style that I bring to communicating about a lot of these topics while still understanding that it's just like n equals one. I'm sharing my experience and hopefully, as food for thought to maybe help you look back at your own experience and understand what connects from my experiences, my perspectives, and my context that might be useful and I hope that you'll find something. Special Guest: Justin Searls.

Overview Justin joins us again for the first time (sorry, it's a thing) to talk about his books. Justin has written many fantasy and sci-fi, some of them have been with Michael Anderle. We discuss how books are different than video games and what he is working on now, which includes his ghostwriting. Since he writes fantasy, he tells us how it's different than Game of Thrones. Website http://www.justinsloanauthor.com/ His Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09L1GVDQ7/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B09L1GVDQ7&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=718909cbf54b540ea1c2cc2f8f563a76 Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0545139708/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0545139708&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=d6ef0c8b153de68177e4762d9d4af216 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062073494/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0062073494&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=627353fbc3aa0228c7f9647dc63d78eb YouTube https://youtu.be/6pFkMLlVgZA Transcript [00:03:21] Stephen: Let's get started. So this is backwards for me. Usually I talk about books and then we discuss other things, but I got so excited talking to you. I talked about all the other stuff and totally forgot about your books. So this is actually part a when I put them out. So it'll be backwards for everybody listening, but that's fine. It keeps life interesting. So Justin, where are we found that a little bit about you and all that it's coming up in the actually next part of the interview, but I wanted to talk about your books because you have some interesting titles. So tell us about the fiction that you write. [00:03:58] Justin: Sure. So I write a lot of different [00:04:00] kinds of fiction and so a lot of it is Saifai a lot of is fantasy. I got my start back in the day when I had been waiting for the next game of Thrones book to come out. So I wrote my own fantasy. And then it all went crazy from there. I did some middle grade stuff that I finished before that one was really done and inspired by Harry Potter and whatnot. And then went on to write more supernatural stuff I wrote with Michael Anderly for a little bit. We did probably let me just think real quick, maybe like 16 books together and yeah, that was a lot of fun nowadays. I'm writing a lot more of like kind of space, fantasy, like star wars type stuff. [00:04:35] Stephen: So couple of questions, first of all, do you find. Problems with going from fantasy sci-fi with readers or people like, Hey, this isn't like the last couple of weeks. Cause I hear that a lot. [00:04:49] Justin: Yeah. Uh, so what's interesting about Angelie's readership is that his is very much a mixture already. So. And a lot of those, we just carried over [00:05:00] to me, which is great. And so they don't really care. I would say that when you're trying to reach the broader market or when I'm moving away from that focus, then it's like lately I haven't read a book now with Michael and two years, at least. So I'd say that I probably have lost like the idea that originally there was a lot of his readers who would check out my stuff. And now it's just the ones who are truly loyal and really interested in Michael publishes so much. I like a book a week or a book a day, or who knows a lot. It's not like his fans have time to go check out other authors anyway, unless it's inside that university reaching out to new audiences, I'd say, yes, it's a lot harder to try to straddle two horses at the same time. But a lot of my newer books have been just Saifai or especially the next three that I have ready to go are pure Saifai. So maybe that'll make it a lot easier, but when you're trying to publish only Saifai or sorry, when you're trying to publish a mix or you're trying to go yeah. Only Spotify and then fantasy and backup. Uh,

Justin Seibert is President at Direct Online Marketing, an agency that focuses on and excels at – direct online marketing – to move clients' ROIs in a positive direction. In this interview, Justin describes the process of developing strategies to drive quality traffic to its clients, converting that traffic into leads, and sending leads through to generate sales. Justin says the process of vetting potential clients is “very long.” Some of what the agency looks for to get a good fit: Medium-sized businesses provide the greatest opportunity to make an impact. Smaller businesses will not be able to get benefits commensurate with what it will cost them to work with DOM. In the case of larger businesses, the agency will not be able to move the needle as much. Highly niched businesses, either the lead brand or the challenger brand within a specific niche. These businesses are not “household names” unless the household is one already familiar with that particular industry.  Almost any industry. The agency works heavily with a number of SaaS (Software as a Service) companies, higher education, and ecommerce retail and less so with everything else – from “manufacturing to finance to entertainment.” In 2001, Justin started his career in Los Angeles, working for a company in the financial industry. The company had been highly successful with radio marketing but was looking for the next thing . . . and assigned Justin the task of figuring out how to use the internet to generate quality leads. His office was right next to the sales floor, so he got fast feedback on how good a job he was doing.  In spring of 2006, Justin moved into his basement and blogged at least five days a week, trying to get the word out about digital marketing. By October, he hired his first part-time employee. Justin says he always liked the idea of hiring people . . . because of the positive impact it would make on those individuals, their families, and on the community at large. But, planning and timing the growth of a company, especially when there is no outside funding, is a challenge. Justin explains, There are two classifications: 1) the revenue producers (sales, marketing, and 2) the internal administrative staff. He now has the confidence to hire for those internal functions when he perceives it is best for the company.  For “client-facing” employees, Justin looks at the current book of business and the pipeline to decide which functions to hire and when. The problem is in the timing. If he hires ahead of need, he may not have the cash flow to support those new hires. If he hires when everyone is swamped, the workload increases even more because the new employee needs to be trained. Cultural fit is paramount – but not intransigent. The agency's employees are virtual due to Covid, the culture has changed, and, in the middle of all of this, Justin has been hiring. Two things Justin notes as important when starting an agency: 1) Know what your process looks like. (He cites Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.”) and 2) Get some sales training early on. Sales plus process is key. Justin can be reached on his agency's website at: directom.com or on LinkedIn at Justin Seibert (S-E-I-B-E-R-T). Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Justin Seibert, President at Direct Online Marketing based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Justin. JUSTIN: Thanks for having me, Rob. Excited to be here. ROB: Excited to have you here. The name of your agency is tremendously straightforward, but tell us how that points you, points all of us, to your superpower and what you do best as an agency.  JUSTIN: I love it. I realized going into this that I'm really horrible at picking out names for agencies, but the reason that we chose it was I believe in being very straightforward. I just want people to know what we're good at doing. What I imagined this agency and what my strengths were and what I wanted to be able to offer to clients is about results, and not about being clever, not about being funny or winning awards. It was about how we could actually move ROI in a positive direction for them? So “Direct” was really important to be part of the name, and then “Online Marketing” just being what we specialize in. If you fast forward to today, what we do really, really well is strategizing on how to drive quality traffic to our clients and then help them convert that traffic into leads that become sales. I hate saying this because it sounds so cliched, but clients see us as trusted partners, and that's so important in this industry, as you're aware, just because there's so much snake oil out there. We want to be able to be that beacon for people that they can say, “Yes, we know that our agency has us covered, and they're acting as an extension of our team.” ROB: Makes perfect sense. One challenge that can happen that I've seen when you're setting that expectation with a client who is coming to you because they expect results – that can mean different things to you and to a client unless you align on expectations. How do you set that initial engagement and the expectation that all the leads are not going to show up tomorrow, but they also shouldn't be waiting a year for something to happen? JUSTIN: I think it's really important to get on the same page up front. I speak with a lot of people, our team speaks with even more people, and we turn down partnerships all the time just because we don't feel it's a good fit. We have a very long process, longer than some people would like. A lot of times it's “Hey, can't you just send us a price list or something like that?”, and we're like, “How can we do that when we don't understand what your goals are yet?” So, we spend a lot of time to understand what their needs are, who they are, to then evaluate to see if we even believe we're a good fit. Assuming that they still think it's a match, then we continue down that process. And a lot of times, depending on the particular service we're talking about, we are even sending them a projection range of what we think is realistic to see if that aligns. Sometimes it doesn't, so they choose not to go with us; sometimes it doesn't, and they rethink if this is even the right strategy for them. Sometimes it doesn't align and they say, “Do we really need to rethink what our expectations are?” Because when we haven't done that, Rob, it's exactly what you're talking about where we get into it – we know from doing this all the time and knowing the industry and knowing what is reasonable that we may be hitting something really well, but it's not what their expectations are. So we really try to get that up front as much as possible. ROB: Totally makes sense. Even within this performance and driving leads market, there's such a wide range of customers. You can look at anything from the medical profession and elective medical procedures to local services, plumbers and whatnot, all the way through to Software as a Service and almost bleeding into potentially high-end commerce. What sweet spots do you see for Direct Online Marketing? Is there a typical client that you find yourself engaged with? JUSTIN: There is a typical client in terms of some respects. Number one, it's a medium size business. A smaller size business, probably for the price of doing business with us, it's not going to drive the value that they need. If it's a larger business, we're not moving the needle as much. We're not being as impactful as we'd like to be. So, it's that medium size business, it tends to be a good fit. The more niched they are, the better. We typically tend to deal with clients that are the leader or the challenger brand within a particular niche, where if you talk to somebody on the street who isn't familiar with that industry, they have no idea who the client is, but if they're familiar with that group, they go, “Oh yeah, of course I know who that is.” We've worked with some really big brands, but that's not common for us. What's common is that market leader or the challenger in a medium size business. When you're talking industry, we're all over the map. We purposefully made that decision when I started the agency that we weren't going to specialize in one particular area. Again, there's some common traits, but in terms of industry we do a lot with SaaS, Software as a Service. We do a lot in higher education. We do a strong bit in ecommerce retail. But outside of those areas, anything from manufacturing to finance to entertainment, all the way down the line. We've worked in dozens and dozens of different industries. ROB: When you say higher education, I can't help but obsess in a little bit on that. I would imagine at the onset of this pandemic and the first year of virtual for many of them, there's been tactical adjustments. But when they're looking ahead to 2021, what are you looking at for the education world, and strategically how they are setting themselves up to recruit that next class in such a pool of uncertainty? JUSTIN: That's where the partnership really comes in. I love this question, by the way. We have to understand, how are they adjusting? Depending on what they're looking to do and depending on where they are geographically has a big impact on what their approach is going to look like. I'm thinking through one client right now. They're taking students in dorms this year. They are, for the most part, not doing anything but singles, and there's more spacing. So, they had to find more housing and had to get really creative with what they were going to do there. Or they had to turn those students into virtual, or they had to turn them away. Fortunately, they were able to find some solutions for that. Understanding what ground rules we have to work with is really important to understand that. I think the bigger thing within the industry is – and this has been coming for a little while now – “Am I getting the value out of the dollars I'm paying for higher education, particularly if I'm taking out student loans, which could be $60,000 per year?” It's really imperative on the schools to be able to show the value they're getting and what they're able to do to help students post-graduation. I think that's what the universities and the colleges are trying to convey right now, and we're trying to do in terms of helping more. ROB: It sounds like a good challenge. But to your point, this is a strategic challenge that has been underway for a while, and like so many things, it has been accelerated during this time. That makes so much sense. If I believe your LinkedIn a little bit, it seems like you have been in this industry, in this business, for a little bit. Rewind us back to how Direct Online Marketing came to pass and what made you decide to do this instead of going to work for somebody else. JUSTIN: I started getting my feet wet and really learning everything when I was living in Los Angeles. A company in the financial industry had hired me. This was back in 2001, very much the Wild, Wild West days still of digital. I was there for a few months, and they said, “We've been really, really successful in, of all things, long-form radio marketing. For us to grow, we need another marketing leg. We think it's the internet. Go figure it out.” I had no background in this whatsoever. This was brand new to me, like it was brand new to most people. What was really awesome – I had so much latitude to try things. If you remember this, for people that know the search engine days, this was back when it was goto.com. It was the first year of Google AdWords at the time. So, everything was brand spanking new. But what was so instructional for me was that I sat right next to the sales floor. This was all about generating quality leads. If I was sending them bad leads – I'm looking at my numbers thinking, “Hey, I'm doing an awesome job,” but if they were getting bad leads, not only was I not producing and wasting their time, but then they would start to look at my leads as a waste of their time and not put the effort they needed to into those conversations. So really getting that feedback from them on what I could do to keep the numbers up but also improve the quality of leads – and then really seeing the fruits of my labor, where if you looked at the sales board, I could see by source what was going in there. If we fast forward 4-½ years later, when I moved away from Los Angeles for family reasons, when I started with them, they were a $25 million a year company total in revenue. When I left in 2006, they were doing $35 million a year just attributable to paid search. I don't say that to brag. They had a tremendous, tremendous management team, they had an awesome sales force, it was a good market. But I bring that up because if you still remember back to 2006, as crazy as it seems today, people still weren't sure if Google and digital marketing was really a thing or if it was something that was just a fad, the way that they saw the bubble burst back in '99, 2000, 2001.  I had that knowledge that this was a real thing, and logically it makes sense. This is direct mail on steroids. I couldn't have been any luckier to have that as my background for when I moved and then looked at my next opportunity. ROB: Once you decided to go in on building this business, did you have any partners early on? Or was it just you and a card table in a closet coffee shop early on? What did it look like? JUSTIN: Absolutely. It was me in my basement, trying to keep the kids and the dogs upstairs so I could do some work and go out there and hustle. I used to blog every day, literally at least five days a week. I had to do something to get us out there and to get known a little bit and build that up. That was in I guess April/May of 2006. By October, I hired my first employee that was part-time at the time, and got some really horrible office space, but it was the only one that was correctly priced. So, it worked out for my needs. Then went off to the races from there. ROB: Excellent. Maybe from Day 1 you had a pretty good degree of confidence from your experience. At what point did it become evident that you were going to be doing this for a while and with more people involved? JUSTIN: That's a really good question. I think there's two ways to approach it. Some of this is more apparent today with the advent of the solopreneur. I don't think that model was quite as prevalent back then. But I could do that and be a contractor, or I could hire other people. One's not better than the other; it's just what fits you. I like the idea of hiring people for a variety of reasons. One, when you look back at what my dream was, I really take a lot of pride in being able to employ people and to help them make their livelihoods and to add to the local community and to help support their families. I feel very blessed to be able to play some small part in those things. So that was part of it. But part of it, too, was there are so many things in life that I am horrible at, or at least not very good at, that by being able to bring in people that are better in those areas than me and to be able to concentrate on the one or two things that I'm okay at was helpful. And then the final thing was, do I ever want to be able to take a vacation or a sick day? Of course, as an entrepreneur, you don't at the beginning. But do I want to be able to do those at some point? I really can't if I'm just doing it on my own, or it's a harder process. So, to build out a team – we have a tremendous one these days, and really, I've been lucky through the years with having really great people – that really was the right model for me and for DOM. ROB: Along that journey, have there been any pivotal hires that you realize in hindsight really helped you scale beyond yourself? JUSTIN: Yeah, there's been a few things that have happened. One of the challenges with growing the business, especially if you're not taking outside money, is you're in this position of “Do I hire now or do I wait?” If you're basically operating off of cash, you have to wait until you have the business to be there, so then you scramble to fill that position, get there, and then go on to the next spot. As you get bigger, then you're putting real strains on your people that are already working to the bone as much as they can, and now they have to become less productive because they're going to train somebody up and then move on from there It's been a constant battle for us. It's been getting better now that we get larger and that we have a little bit more flexibility with the things that we do. But I guess for agency or just business owners in general, what I'd share is that there are stages of the business. There are certain things, like getting our operations in order, that I couldn't really have somebody dedicated to for a long time. That's the type of thing where they're not being “productive,” even though they're incredibly important to being productive for the agency and for our clients and everything else. Everybody had to take their own pieces of that. I would say we've had a few different instances where it was great to be able to get to the next step. At the beginning of this year, we changed our model up once again and broke out a new department. So we're always looking at those areas. But I've been really, really lucky to have so many tremendous people that work here because without them, none of the success is possible. ROB: That's excellent. You mentioned outside funding. Very, very few agencies are able to raise outside funding, and arguably it doesn't really make sense to, either, in most contexts. You mentioned within that cash flow and the challenge of stressing the team, when to hire. You have some people on the team now; how have you resolved the decision of when it's time to add people or when it's time to stand pat with the team that you have? JUSTIN: If you look historically, sometimes you have your hand forced and sometimes you have that situation for yourself. When I had a little less gray hair than I do today, I remember we were a smaller company – I would guess we were maybe eight people, nine people at the time. I don't remember the exact number, but I had two key people that were managers of the company. I got notice from the one woman in the afternoon, let's say on a Thursday, and I go to sit to talk with the other one Friday morning, and she's like, “Well, I have more bad news to give you.” So, within 12 hours, I had all of my management team give notice. That was a scary proposition, and we had to learn from that and what we could do, but we got through it. I would say, as tremendous as those people are, we're better off today because of the learning from that. We're at a point now, though, that there's two classifications. There's the people that are in some way revenue producers from the standpoint of they're in sales, in marketing, or there's some other need that's not a client-producing function. Maybe a manager of a department, something along those lines. Where I've gotten now, I have enough flexibility that when I've identified that, I'm no longer scared. I just say, “I need it. This is what's best for the company. I'm going to go do it.” On the client execution side of things, that very much is more a function of, what does our book of business look like today? What does our pipeline look like? And then based on that, knowing which functions we need to hire when. ROB: You mentioned having two managers leave quickly – all of your managers, in fact. JUSTIN: Yeah. ROB: What do you do in that scenario? You can elevate internal staff, you can try and make a quick hire – although sometimes that doesn't work out so well – you can just eat the pain for a while and figure it out yourself. What path through did you take, and what would you do differently now, maybe? JUSTIN: I want to think through what I would do differently now, but let me answer the first part of that, which is a combination of factors. One, leaning heavily on some outside resources, from mentors to HR teams to other people that could give advice and help us get through it. One is putting my head down in the sand and just getting through it until we can get through those different pieces. I think you always have to take a step back and evaluate, why are you there? What do you need to do differently to avoid these issues in the future? Part of it can be through hires. But really, that was a turning point, along with going through a program with Goldman Sachs and Babsen College called the 10,000 Small Businesses. I don't want to derail, but I came to this epiphany all around the same time of how important culture was. And shame on me for not understanding that before. I had kind of taken the path of “I don't want to force culture down people's throats. I really care about these people in a very deep way, but I don't want them to feel like work is their life. I want them to have a work-life balance. So, if they don't want to share things with me or the office, I don't want to force that on them.” I didn't understand how much people were looking for that culture and how important that was. When we look at the things that led to our success and all of our growth in the last 6 years, fixing the culture to now where we have a really strong culture – and it makes hiring easier, it makes retention easier, it makes our outcome better – has been such a huge part of what we do. ROB: I definitely understand that desire not to overwork people. But also, I think people want to come to work. They want to like where they work. They want to like the people they work with. It sounds like that's something you've been able to form over time. What aspects of culture have shifted during this season of people largely being virtual, and what things have stayed the same, but maybe in different ways you didn't quite expect originally? JUSTIN: I was really worried about that. I think there were a couple things that helped us out. One is the fact that we have such a great team already, and we have people that are bought in and interested. The other thing – we added a lot more communication. Everybody was already used to Zoom; we'd been using that with our clients forever, so those things were pretty easy. And we're a digital marketing agency. We're not a manufacturer. So, switching to home wasn't as challenging as it would be for other people. But I think one of the things that helped us out, based on some comments and some feedback I received from the team – I think they were really appreciative of the fact that they weren't getting furloughed, they weren't getting their salaries reduced, and in fact they actually saw that we were hiring. We were growing and adding more people during a very turbulent time when everybody's world was turned upside down. I think some of those things played in our favor and didn't really have anything to do with me figuring things out. But the big one was really just increased communication. I will tell you one of my big worries still is I believe there's benefit to people being in the same office and bumping into each other and overhearing conversations, and that's gone right now, for the most part. Our offices are open; some people are choosing to come in. We've left it to them for now to decide whether they feel comfortable with that or not. We have a few people coming in. Most are staying home. But I look forward to getting to a point when we can continue to have some of those in-person conversations. ROB: Absolutely. Likewise. I definitely miss that camaraderie and the knowing each other in that casual way that comes from being in the office. You mentioned a little bit the lessons learned from that management shakeup that you had, but what are some other things as you reflect on your time running Direct Online Marketing that you might consider doing a little bit differently if you were starting from zero? JUSTIN: Looking back, January 1, I always say “I can't believe how stupid I was last year.” I am constantly on the move for how I can get a little bit better and how I can learn a little bit more. The one that I'll say from an agency – and then I'll give another one that I talk about typically with entrepreneurs – from an agency perspective, I really didn't get how important operations was, which I sort of touched on before. It's “We're marketers. We're so smart. We just figure this stuff out.” That's a really good recipe for letting things fall through the cracks and not being consistent. I would just say understanding what that process is going to look like – start out with it from the beginning. If you're not one of those people, like me, that is – I'm not the person that likes setting up processes. I can do it, but it's not what I'm naturally attuned to. But spend the time and do that. Very much the Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.” That's the process part of that. The other one that I talk about frequently is I wish I would have done sales training earlier. What people don't realize when they come from another office, they worked for someone else, to then starting their own endeavors – whether you like it or not, you're a salesperson now. You are out there building the business. Sales has such a dirty connotation in our world. People don't like sales. They think of used car sales. But sales is really, ideally, just providing value and providing aid to somebody and being able to match that. We don't do hard sales. If you're a good fit, we'd love to talk with you. If you're not, good luck. I hope you find somebody that's a better fit for you and hope you are going to be there. The process of sales training is just learning some techniques that work for you to make sure that you're aligning with the person, you're understanding what their challenges are and how you might be able to help. The business could've grown much faster had I done sales training earlier. ROB: Was there any particular sales training that you went through that you found effective, or is it really almost anything is better than almost nothing? JUSTIN: I would say the latter. I've gone through a few different ones. I've had my team go through some different ones, and I think you pick the pieces of things that you like out there. I think Sandler is a pretty common one that I got a lot out of, that my team has gotten a lot out of. But if you look at it, I think there's an emphasis of finding the pain, and to me it has more of a negative connotation when you think about it that way. It's true you have to have the person understand what their challenges are and how you can help them, but I'm more of a positive person. I try to be. So I'd rather orient myself around what's my solution to help them. That's why I say, again, I think it's great – some people are diehard advocates. It's a wonderful system. For me, I take about 95% of it and just tweak a few things. ROB: Sandler does come up a lot. I think what you've hinted at – a lot of marketers find themselves much more relational sellers rather than the process and pain. It can feel a little bit more formulaic than maybe an entrepreneurial marketer. JUSTIN: Sorry to interrupt, but on that front, I think the formulaic part is really important because there's certain things you need to do. My sales process has become much longer than many other agencies out there, but I've found that it's really important for me to do because when I skip those steps, I'm not getting the right solution that the person needs or we're not aligning on it. So, I do think it's really important to develop your formula, whatever it is, and practice it enough that it's natural. I understand why people don't like that idea, but I think that if you're doing those things, it still can really help. ROB: Absolutely, yeah. Feeling natural versus unnatural is perhaps one of the bigger obstacles that people do have. Justin, when people want to find you and they want to find Direct Online Marketing, where should they go to track you down? JUSTIN: Easiest thing is to go to our website, directom.com. I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most active on social media. If you look me up, it's pretty simple. I'm sure if they're listening to this, they'll see the spelling of my name. It's S-E-I-B-E-R-T. I would love to connect with people there. ROB: Sounds great. Justin, congratulations on the journey so far and the success so far and, heck, even staying in business through one and now arguably two recessions. That alone is something, but to do that with a team around you is quite a thing, and to go through so many transitions, starting from the world of Google ads being surprising to people to having to master so many more channels just to serve a customer well. Congratulations on everything so far, Justin. Thank you for sharing your story. JUSTIN: Rob, thank you so much. ROB: Be well. Thanks. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

On today's episode, we speak with Justin Christianson, the Co-Founder and President of Conversion Fanatics. Conversion Fanatics helps businesses find additional revenue through conversion optimization strategies. Tune in to hear us discuss exactly what conversion optimization is and Justin's specific approach to helping companies increase their revenue.   Topics: Justin's work history. Explaining “conversion optimization”. Justin's favorite tools. Why directing traffic back to your homepage can make a huge difference. At what point the strategy goes beyond the customer's website. The importance of incremental adjustments. Keeping it simple. What is helping him through 2020.   Resources: Conversion Fanatics Justin's Social Media Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast. As you know, we are online business brokers, a crew that has been there, done that. We help people sell their SaaS, content, FBA, e-commerce businesses and everybody's got a crazy amount of experience. Everybody's built, bought, and sold their own online business. Brad bootstrapped a company from 10 employees to 129 with three men ownership. He also acquired 26 companies or content sites in a six-year period and sold them to a private equity firm. Jason raised 10 million dollars in venture capital money and built a company. Amanda launched an affiliate business as a hobby, and it became the top four in affiliate in four months. Brian founded the world's first internet-based due diligence firm. There's a whole other crew; the rest of the team they've all got a ton of experience like that and now they're all advisors, brokers here in the Quiet Light team. I'm probably the least impressive of the crew. However, in the last eight years, I've sold close to 100 million in e-commerce transactions, probably at an average of about 1.1, 1.2 million dollars at a time. And we help first, that's the most important thing. We take that experience that we have and we help people around us, whether you are buyers that are listening or sellers. And we bring people on to the podcast like Justin Christianson so that he can help as well. Justin, from Conversion Fanatics and I'm stumbling on that a little bit. Justin, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Justin: Hey, thanks for having me. Joe: One of the things that we don't do is read scripts as you can tell by stuttering through that but we also don't give fancy backgrounds on people. We love to hear it from them; what their story is and what their background is so could you introduce yourself to the audience here? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the digital marketing online world; I think this is year 19 for me. I started in my early 20s. I kind of moved up the ranks through affiliate marketing and lead generation and then became partners on a company and we exploded that company. I was actually the number one affiliate for it. We exploded it and grew it like… Joe: Just for the record, three ahead of Amanda. There's no question. She was four you were number one. Okay, I'm busting on Amanda right now, even though she doesn't listen to our own podcast. Continue. Justin: Yeah, we grew it like 500% in one year. We grew it almost 150 the next year. I sold it back to my business partners about; I guess it's been about 10 years, which is my time to leave. I started a private consultancy. I'm kind of teaching the implementation and optimization side of things. And then basically out of demand, I partnered up with my longtime friend Manish, who is my now business partner, and we founded what became Conversion Fanatics about six and a half years ago. Since then I've helped several hundred businesses. I think we calculated somewhere close to an additional hundred million in additional revenue for them through our conversion optimization strategies. Joe: Incredible. Justin: We just keep working every single day to be a little bit better and I'm fortunate enough to help some of the top companies in the world. Joe: And I know a few of them. I know a few of the folks that you worked with through Blue Ribbon Mastermind, our friend Ezra Firestone, and they speak very highly of you. And you actually helped Mark here at Quiet Light with his business Catholic Singles. Why don't you tell us though; I know the definition of it and I'm going to give a short story here afterwards but what is conversion optimization? Justin: Conversion optimization is really the understanding; well, I'm going to back up because conversion optimization, when you first say that, people often say, well, it's split testing. Well, split testing is just the vehicle that we use to prove or disprove whether we're right or not. But conversion optimization in and of itself is understanding the behaviors of the visitor; understanding their wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and where the key friction points are in an online journey and then doing what we can to answer the question why certain things are happening in that journey and then we split test to make sure we're right or not. So really, it just comes down to reading data and then executing on the ideas of why we think that data is telling us what it's telling us. Joe: And it's not just split testing, written content, or split testing images or videos or emails. It's a combination of all of the above, I would think. Justin: Yeah, we focus primarily on-site or on the ad side, but we're primarily; I would say 95% of our business is on-site, user experience, user interface kind of optimization. So, what happens on the website after they come from that ad and what can we do to make that experience better for those visitors and help those brands excel which will also lift up many other metrics in the business as well. Joe: So it's really perfect for the content, e-commerce owner, SaaS owner, and maybe the FBA owners that are trying to expand beyond Amazon and get some traction in their Shopify store or whatever store they might be using. Justin: Yeah. Joe: One of the things I have to say, I didn't understand what split testing was back in the day. I sold my e-commerce site through Quiet Light back in 2010. Mark, actually, Jason here was my broker at the time. I knew everything. I understood exactly what my customer wanted more than they did and kept doing these campaigns and putting them out there and putting out there, putting it out there. Finally, my web developer said, Joe, don't be an ass. Try split testing. I'm like, but this is right. And he's like, let's test it. Without a doubt every new campaign that I tested that I knew which one was going to win, I was dead wrong. And it would result in like 3% to 5% conversion rate differences and at a $200 or $300 transaction, that's a tremendous difference, isn't it? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we'll see; I'm looking at a test right now, it's like a 15% swing. Joe: Holy cow. Justin: I've got one running right now that's almost a triple-digit swing in terms of percentage gain. Joe: When you look at a client that let's say they're selling a physical product, are you looking first at their website to try to help speed up the website and improve it? What approach do you take with new clients? And I know they're all different, but give me an example of one. Justin: Well, really, I take the same approach with all of them, because my philosophy on that is at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. It doesn't matter what we're selling, they've all got wants, needs, buying habits, and decisions and pains and pleasure points and all of those things that go into that. So, I just try to understand and put myself in the shoes of that visitor. I look at the data and say okay, I'll look at their analytics and say, well, they're female aged 35 to 44, primarily they're shopping on mobile, they're falling off on this part of the website. And then I just put myself in the journey like what's stopping; what are the 10 things on this page that could potentially stop a visitor from going through the next step? What isn't clear? What can I add or remove to alleviate those friction points? And really what I'm trying to understand is what on that page holds the most weight in the eyes of the visitors? Because at the end of the day, you said you were proven wrong on a bunch of times. You were assuming something was going to happen. I've ran thousands of marketing split tests. I've strived for just pulling myself out of the equation in terms of my bias; my understanding, and I try to just really put myself in the head of the visitors. And once I do that, then it becomes much more apparent of what I need to test and where. And then as soon as I figure out what holds the most weight, I can then exploit that throughout the rest of the website. If they respond to social proof or they respond more to the benefits of the product or they need more trust aspect in the brand or they need to read more about the product or whatever, I try to figure that out. It could be copy-based. It could be image-based. It could be something as simple as moving a button off on a page. But I incrementally test those things to figure out what holds the most weight and once I figure that out then we just move throughout the site areas on the website and just keep going to try to continually evolve and scale and grow that business. Joe: Going back to the beginning, you said, you see when they drop off in their journey at a certain point. If they're looking at a product and reading an article and at some point, they drop off instead of actually placing an order, what tools or software do you utilize to see that path that the customer takes or potential customer takes to then drop off? It seems to me like that would be hard to access, that information. Justin: No, actually is not. It's one simple report in Google Analytics. Joe: I've been using Google Analytics for; how long have I been self-employed? More than a decade or more like 15 years, I don't know; something like that. Too long to the point where I still don't know how to do stuff like that. Is that training that Google provides you inside of Analytics and workshops or things of that nature or you've just learned it over the years? Justin: Well, it's literally a default report that I go to. It's under Conversions and you have to have e-commerce enabled. So it's under Conversions and then E-commerce and then Shopping Behavior. Literally, it's just a bar graph and it shows you the drop off points in that process and I just know how to read that and then you can dig in deeper and deeper and deeper from there. But generally, I'll get the understanding of it. So, I'll look at the landing page view and it's basically two reports. I'll look at the landing page behavioral report, so I'll see which landing page; their first visit interaction, what that conversion rate is. The Home Page is almost in the top three, almost always, even if you're driving traffic to a separate page or a landing page and the Home Page is generally underutilized by 90% of the businesses out there. Joe: What does it mean underutilized? Justin: They're not focusing on it. They don't care about it. They're focused on landing pages and product pages and checkout flow but yet I've seen campaigns double their return on ad spend by just turning some traffic to their Home Page versus a specific product page. But I look at the top-performing landing pages and then I look at that shopping behavior report and then I'll see okay, we've got this many people that are going on the Home Page, this many people have product views, this many people viewed the cart, this many people went to check out, this many people completed transactions. And usually, there's an outlier in that report. So, if it's on the product page like the product view one, I'll see okay they're in the product view and that means they're viewing a product page, but they're not adding to cart. And then I just go ask a few more questions of where you're driving the majority of your traffic, are you driving traffic directly to that product page or are you driving it to your home page or collections or whatever and then that'll give me a better understanding what those visitors are telling me. Joe: Okay, I got it. And at what point do you go beyond the website itself? Well, actually, let me back up, first and foremost. I talked to thousands of entrepreneurs over the years. Everybody listening to this podcast has a website. Please install Google Analytics because you're not going to be able to do any of this stuff that Justin's talking about. And just to dispel a myth that's out there, Justin, is Google stealing information from the people that are installing software on the website, or are they really just giving you the tools to help improve your business and make more money? Justin: I guess that's up for debate with who you ask but every single website… Joe: I don't want to debate that, by the way. Justin: No, I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Every website out there has it, I mean, has some form of Analytics involved. Joe: Yeah, I just sold a number of them where people have said they straight up don't use Google Analytics and they use some other unknown software or stat tracking data that doesn't do what Google does. So, please everybody install that. When it comes to AB split testing. So, you're figuring these things out. You get to the point where you decide you want to move a button-up or the order button up on a page. Do you just go ahead and do that based off of your experience or do you split test that always? Justin: Always split test it. I am literally proven wrong almost daily. Joe: Okay, it's not just me then. Justin: And we launch 50 plus new split tests a week for our clients. Joe: 50 split tests a week. Okay, always split test regardless. Here's a question for you. This might be tough to answer. When it comes to deciding the winner in a split test, my developer years ago gave me stats and he said, well, you've got to get to this number of total views and then statistically it's got to get here in order to make it a valid split test when you determine a winner. Is that still the case or just kind of do you wing it? Justin: Well, a little bit of both. I look at several different factors. I'll look at statistical confidence, which is one. You have to be statistically valid. You have to have a big enough sample size. You have to have a big enough separation. But I also look at the trend in the data. I look at is it flip-flopping back and forth or is it staying pretty steady as an improvement or a loss? How big of a loss is it out of the gate? And then I look kind of anything north of 25 conversions per variation then I'll start looking at the data. I always run it for at least a calendar week if it's showing promise or sometimes longer. Sometimes a test will run for a month. But there are also the times where you can run a test for six months and run millions of visitors through it and it'll never reach statistical confidence one way or another so you have to know when to cut it. Because if it's null or if it's flat or if it's bouncing back and forth, it's never going to reach confidence because there's not an algorithm on the planet that can factor that fluctuation. Joe: Confidence being the winner, one that's going to produce the end result that you want. Justin: Yes. Joe: What do you do at that point? Do you just flip a coin and decide whoever; if I'm the owner of the website and I like the images on one better than the other and if it's… Justin: So, if I don't know if it's a winner not, I'll generally call it a null result and I'll stick with the original. Unless it's not hurting anything and it's actually making it a better experience for the visitors. Meaning it's cleaning up a page or it's adding a function that might be beneficial that I can use to build upon. Or maybe if it's stripping down a page, then I can go in and then test adding some different types of elements back to the page and it just gives me some more online real estate to work with. So, it's kind of just sort of a guess at that point but I usually have an end goal in mind and I never want to push something that I'm not validating that it's an improvement. And I also don't focus just solely on conversion rate either. I focus on the bigger picture on engagement revenue per visitor, average order value, views on check out; all of those other secondary metrics just to make sure we're not; because you can improve conversion rate but make a lot less money or really dramatically decrease your revenue per visitor. So we just take a very holistic approach to the whole thing and I'm in it to win so I'm not going to push stuff just for the sake of pushing stuff. Joe: Yeah, so number one people have to have Google Analytics installed, figure out how to run the reports, and then always do split testing regardless. What are some of the; I mean you've been doing this for a long time, what are some of the other than I think you said which was people are not paying enough attention to their homepage? What other low hanging fruit is there that folks can do when they look at their own website where you see most common issues, where they can take a look on their own and try to fix things up? Justin: Well, there's a bunch of them, but generally visitors, we kind of live in this speed and this trap, I call it, of growth hacking and a lot of people just go in and say, oh, I think this looks better, let's go ahead and do it or let's change this or I saw so-and-so had it on their website can we do it on my website? And I've never seen that really go well. And also, I think that people think bigger is better so they feel like they need to completely redesign a page or add these big changes to make a big impact and the opposite is actually true. You need to incrementally adjust things to better understand those behaviors. The majority of people that I see are trying to cram too much stuff into a very small area. They're trying to over app their way to better conversions. I've seen stores with 70 plus applications and plugins and all of the stuff installed and they don't necessarily do the right things; adding more urgency and more timers and more pop-ups and things to your website isn't going to help you for a long term sustainable growth. But the glaring one that I see is people do not lead from a place of benefit to the visitors. They're screaming how awesome they are as a company instead of listening to the visitors and what their product is actually going to do for them. And I've said this in my entire career, it's kind of copywriting 101, it's you lead with benefits. So, benefit bullet statements. I go back to that all the time and then I use the features of the product to support those benefits. I've said this many, many times is I've got 16 gigabytes of RAM in my computer, which is great. It's a feature, but it's not a benefit. What does that do for me by having 16 gigabytes of RAM; a faster processing speed, faster video rendering, all of those things because nobody wants the feature. They just want what it's going to actually do for them. And a lot of companies just simply don't do it. They don't pay attention to it and I see it every single week on many, many occasions. Joe: I used to write ad copy for radio direct response stuff and it was 60 seconds and 18 of those 60 seconds were the call to action, which was the phone number; the 800 number at four or five times. We used to be able to get the features and benefits in 42 seconds; simple, clean, quick, clear. It's funny now we've got so much information and so many endless pages of websites that we feel like we do need to just jam more in and do more. Mike Jackness has been a regular guest on the show. He runs Ecom Crew and Ecom Crew Premium and he had a brand called Color It that we sold for him. And one of the things that Mike did very, very well is exactly what you're talking about when he reached out to customers regarding Color It. He had one of the biggest Klaviyo campaigns. He talked about it a lot on the show and that was giving them some benefit with every email that went out; helping them, teaching them, giving them some benefit, not hitting them up with a sales promotion every time. It's a help first mentality and that generally comes back to you. I think that's great. It's sometimes simple to do on a website, and I would think that sometimes it's a little more complex. Are you finding getting a little more complex with video for instance? We had Judson Morgan from Butter.la on talking about the increase in conversions from a static image to a video. Are you finding similar findings or do you split test those types of things as well? Justin: Yeah, we always split test it. I've seen the video go 50% improvement to a 50% decrease and everywhere in between. It just depends on the brand. I've got an auto detailing client that has all the gear for auto detailing and they're very video-focused so moving a video into the main spot on a product page in the carousel would prove really effective for them whereas other companies showcasing a shirt, for example, isn't necessarily as effective as a product that needs to be demonstrated so it's really a case by case basis. And if there's a video available, we'll try to leverage it as much as possible but I have literally seen swings go both ways. Joe: Have you been in a situation where you have been testing video and you're testing that less is more where it's maybe user-generated content versus high-end production and one outperforms the other consistently; probably not consistently, yeah? Justin: Not consistently. But I would say I do this with imagery too, is I kind of lean towards more of the user-generated real type side of things; the shaky camera, the ums and ahs because I think more people are relatable to that or they can relate to that a little bit easier. I've got a client right now that's got a product and all of their imagery looks like straight out of an Instagram model's website. Even their user-generated content is Instagram filtered and perfect and looks like they used a super high-end camera and I'm like, do you have anything real? Like some real, hey, this is awesome look at this. He's like, yeah, I've got all sorts of that. I'm like, well, let's test that because your visitors are literally saying we don't know if these are actually as good; the pictures are great, but we don't know if they're actually as good so we've got to build that trust that the product is great. And this is a site that sells 2,000 plus orders a day so they're doing volume, but their visitors are still screaming we don't know if we can trust this even though they've got 500,000 plus customers. So we're just trying to leverage that as much as we possibly can to showcase in different ways like, hey, this is real and it's not… Joe: Have you had the chance to split test that yet? Justin: We're in the process of gathering all the images. I'm literally going through this this week. Joe: And is that your role within the company or do you have other folks that help you? Justin: Well, I've got a team. Joe: Well getting down to the point where you're picking out those images, or do you let the company owner or your client pick out the images that you'd be choosing? Justin: A little of both, we're very collaborative. But I've got a big team of smart people; designers and developers and strategists and analysts and all of that stuff. But I'm very much involved and my business partner and I are in the overarching strategy. Some clients I'm more in the weeds with than others. This one I just happened to be going back and forth with because he was trying to push for one thing and I'm like, well, your visitors aren't saying they want that so I kind of had to interject and say, here's what we're seeing from that standpoint. Joe: And they're literally saying and you're; and I'm saying you and I know it's your team, but I'm saying it's so that the audience can go and do this themselves as well. You are literally going on to the reviews, to the Instagram comments and things of that nature, and seeing what the visitors are actually saying, or are these e-mails into the company that tips you? Justin: No, survey. This one is actually like just a type form survey saying here's the; we took the top three questions, like what questions do you have that we didn't answer? I do this with exit polling a lot too so almost all of our clients we've set up an exit poll. So catch the people that are leaving and just ask them what problem did we solve for you today or what question weren't we able to answer and give them that open-ended kind of outlet to tell us where we're falling short. And you'll see a trend very quickly of what that data is telling you. In this case… Joe: So somebody when somebody leaves the site without placing an order, if that's the objective, you've got the ability to have them fill out an exit poll form? Justin: Essentially, yes, just a one question kind of survey. Joe: Okay, that's fascinating. Imagine that, asking them why they didn't order and having them tell you and having you be able to fix that problem. What you're doing is not actually that complicated it's just hard work. Justin: Right. Joe: I guess you got to take the time in the detail to get to it, and it's funny, I find a lot of things in this e-commerce or online world that we live in not very complicated. It's common sense. Sometimes we just have to be told what we already know. Justin: Yeah, common sense is kind of lacking in a lot of cases these days it seems like. I mean, even in my career of almost 20 years, nothing's changed. Just the mediums have changed. So that's really it. Joe: True. Justin: People come to me and they're like, oh, hey, what's your framework and what fancy tools are you using and I'm like, I'm simple. I want to go down to the bare bones minimum possible to get the job done. I don't want to over-automate and over-analyze. I just want the visitors to tell me what it is and optimization in that. I mean, there's a science to it, obviously, but an understanding and an experience definitely helps but it isn't rocket science. I mean it's ask the right questions and my question just happens to be why. Why are they clicking on the button or why are they leaving that page or why are they watching the video or aren't they watching the video, why are they dropping off at that point in the video? It's just questioning everything and then looking for all the ways we can possibly test to improve that. Joe: It's a lot of whys in there and none of that becauses come from the founder of the company or the CMO or something like that. They come from the customer, which is smart. It's the mistake I made years ago when I thought I knew everything. I was dead wrong. It sounds like you are too most of the time when you're doing your split testing all week. So, listen to the customer, obviously, but you've got to get that information to the customer and ask them. Justin: Yeah, and I think as business owners, and it's why I hire coaches. It's why I hire people to get an outside, unbiased perspective because I see so many business owners often look at their business or even marketing executives for large, large corporations, they're in there every single day looking at the data, looking at the website, looking at the marketing message that they just get numb to it and blind to it. And sometimes the smallest little change and the smallest interaction or they're overlooking just some small lever they need to pull that's going to dramatically improve their marketing performance. And I fortunately and unfortunately see it all the time. Joe: I'm going to go on a short tangent here. You said you hire coaches. You've been self-employed for two decades in the online space. What kind of coach would somebody with your experience be utilized? What kind of coaches do you hire for yourself? Justin: So I started out; I'm a direct response marketer. I'm a B2C guy that for some reason started an agency. I have no idea how to run an agency. I never did when we started it so I've hired several; I've hired sales coaches, I've hired other business development coaches, I've hired lead generation coaches, I'm in a Mastermind right now for agency owners; all very top level just because there's a lot of stuff that I don't know from the inner workings of the process. I'm a forever student and I think I can learn how to do something and I live kind of by the motto that every day I need to be a little bit better than I was yesterday even if it's just one small incremental improvement. I'm a split test guy so I have to strive for that improvement all the time. And sometimes I have the wrong questions or I have the questions or I'm not asking the right questions on my own business and it's even helped me even through all of the stuff that's going on this year. There was a time where we had a lot of unknowns, even back in March and if we don't change this stuff we're going to be in freak out mode if we don't fix some stuff. So, I needed to lean on my coach and my crew and my circle of influence on the agency side to kind of help us navigate. Joe: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I ask the question because you obviously have done some things right over the last couple of decades and some of the audience members might just be leaving the corporate world and coming into this online world that we live in and one on one coaching is the equivalent of one on one therapy for people that need help but it's for you and your business. In many ways, it improves you as an individual as well as a business person and as an individual. We have David Wood on the podcast; he's a business coach, just talking about the benefits of asking certain types of questions and trying to make incremental growth as you've talked about here. And then the Mastermind groups like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, like Ecom Crew premium, like eCommerceFuel, like Rhodium Weekend, those are all group therapy, but it's group enhancement. Everybody shares their secrets with the other members of the team so everybody can grow and learn together. So I think it's brilliant, very, very smart things to do. Justin: There is a lot of; if you get in a room with people that are on that level or even above you and I don't always join into our monthly or biweekly phone calls on our Mastermind and all of the stuff and I don't always need help. I don't always have something to share but when I do, they're there. And I think there's a lot to be said about that, too. It's just having kind of that fallback and kind of a sounding board when you do have an idea or you're falling short in certain areas. Joe: I couldn't agree more. Justin, I appreciate it. Where do people go to learn about your business Conversion Fanatics; is it just simply www.ConversionFanatics.com? Justin: Yeah, www.ConversionFanatics.com. You can find all information about us. I've got a best-selling book that's also available on Amazon. If you go over there, find it. It has the same name, Conversion Fanatic. Joe: Awesome. Justin: And I'm all over social media so you can find me at www.onespotsocial.com/JustinChristianson and you can find links there; basically everything. Joe: Fantastic. Justin, I appreciate your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Justin: Thanks for having me.

Justin Gray is CEO and Founder of LeadMD, a performance marketing consultancy. The agency concentrates on achieving tangible, holistic business goals – defining a buyer, launching a product, increasing revenue – to produce bottom-line impacts, rather than focusing on middle-process goals such as website or cost-per lead-optimization. Most of LeadMD's over 3,500 clients are B2B and B2C considered-purchase organizations – big market enterprises of $100 million and up.  A “considered purchase” is a complex buying decision, fraught with emotional and financial risks and potential rewards – one that requires extensive pre-purchase research and evaluation. In B2B, this space might include software purchases, but it is more than that. LeadMD's clients include technology providers (50% of clients are software providers), healthcare, manufacturing, financial services, and “anyone with a channel sale type of go-to-market.” LeadMD bridges the space between being a global strategy consultant and providing regional implementation. The agency has data science, strategy, and go-to-market teams – who set strategies, plug those strategies into a broad range of systems and marketing platforms, build processes that work for clients, measure results, and optimize performance over time. Justin says that broad scope of function is rare in the B2B space. LeadMD's consultants find the diversity in clients, the variety and unpredictability of problems and solutions, and the challenge of cobbling together customized solutions . . . exciting, and average 5 to 10 active, and widely-different campaigns a month. Close client relationships are critical.  New clients may come to LeadMD with a particular goal. The agency uses its “Catalyst Marketing Framework” that clearly states the client's objective and then provides a “laundry list” of what the client will need to have solidly in place in order to achieve the stated objective. This helps them align their activities to the objectives, and, in the end, produce significant, relevant outcomes.  Justin has discovered over the years is that many clients believe they already have a full understanding of their buyer profile. Often that “full understanding” is only superficial. Do they really know who their buyers are? All of them? Then, do they know the platforms where their buyers “hang out”? Probably not. Yet that information is critical to know because those platforms are where LeadMd's clients need to focus their marketing efforts.  LeadMD's 3-person data science team digs in at a deeper level that its clients have – researching the market, defining buyers, assembling ideal customer profiles – and then translates that information into engagement and messaging frameworks. LeadMD utilizes role-based psychological/personality profiling to select candidates who will strengthen the organization—either by reinforcing role-desirable traits . . . or by bringing a new direction to the role. The hiring process can take as long as 2 months. Fifty percent of the organization is employee owned. Justin can be reached on LinkedIn, on Twitter @jgraymatter or on his agency's website at: https://www.leadmd.com/. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined by Justin Gray, CEO and Founder at LeadMD based in Scottsdale, Arizona. Welcome to the podcast, Justin. JUSTIN: Thanks, Rob. Appreciate you guys having me on. ROB: Fantastic. Why don't you tell us about LeadMD and where LeadMD excels? JUSTIN: LeadMD is what we describe as a performance marketing consultancy. It basically just means that our outcomes are aligned to tangible business goals, whether that be revenue increase, product launches, defining a buyer – something that's going to have a real tangible impact, not on the tactical side. We don't get into any engagements where we're trying to optimize a website or a cost per lead. It's going to be more holistic than that. Although we might conduct those tactics, we really desire to impact the bottom line of our clients – which are predominantly B2B and B2C considered-purchase organizations, big market enterprise. Our secret sauce, or where we made our bones, is by operating bridging two different spaces. Normally you either work with a really high dollar, white shoe global consultancy like Accenture or Deloitte and they will help you set your go-to-market strategy or your marketing strategy, and then you'll work with a much more regional partner that's going to help you, maybe even an independent consultant that would pop in and help you operationalize that stuff. We do both, and we beat out the Deloittes and Accentures of the world every day. Our real claim to fame is that we do stuff. Marketing operations is really the backbone of our organization. We've got the data science team, we've got a strategy team, we've got a go-to-market team, and these are all really smart people. But the thing that makes them truly unique is they know how to go plug that strategy into systems and make it work and measure it and optimize it over time, which is just a real rarity, unfortunately, within the B2B space. ROB: For sure. You cast an interestingly wide net with your description that is still narrow in an interesting way. You said B2B and B2C considered purchases. A lot of times I think when you look at performance marketing groups, that B2B considered purchase dials in pretty tightly on let's say software. There's not a lot of white space around that. But it sounds like when you talk about considered purchase in consumer and non-software – where does the rest of the range go beyond that preconception about software, software, software? JUSTIN: We've got probably five – because we've been in business for over 10 years, we've followed the marketing automation maturity curve, and we're a primary partner of many of those providers. I've got over 3,500 customers, literally from vape pens to traditional software providers and everything in between. But the primary concentrations we see are obviously technology providers, as you mentioned, software. Then healthcare, and that bifurcates itself into the payer/provider side and then the med device side. Both those industries, we've had a really strong footprint in. Then manufacturing. I describe it as when your grandma gets an iPhone happening in manufacturing right now. A lot of these organizations have really archaic marketing practices, but they're springing forward into the latest and greatest because it's become standard at this point. So manufacturing is a big one for us. Financial services, everything from traditional banking to online banking to credit unions. And then really, anyone with a channel sale type of go-to-market. That can be insurance brokers, that can be real estate – commercial real estate, predominantly. Anyone that's selling through the channel is also where we've seen a big concentration. But definitely, of that 3,500+, you're probably dealing with about 50% that falls into the software provider space. Still a big industry for us. ROB: Sure. But a fascinating range beyond that. If somebody looks you all up on LinkedIn, at least, if LinkedIn is to be believed, you have dozens and dozens and dozens of employees, but it sounds like you're talking about quite a variety of products and perhaps even thousands of customers. It seems like there's a story of tremendous leverage in there that I'd like to dig into a little bit, that you can be effective across such a range and across so many customers. JUSTIN: Yeah. I think that's just a function of necessity. With the rise of marketing automation and therefore marketing ops, there was this big talent vacuum that occurred. As we were building this agency and bringing people on and training them – and even advertising to them why they should come work for us versus go to the client side – the fact that they're going to get exposure to – our average consultant is running between 7 and 10 active projects every month. That's an incredible amount of exposure that they're getting. As I mentioned earlier, both from the strategy side of the house – fundamentally, how are they going to market? What does their buyer look like? How are they engaging this individual? – all the way down into how we make a platform like a Marketo work for that business. We're talking to a retail burger chain right now. Loyalty programs are their predominant reason for up-leveling their marketing ops tech stack and therefore the surrounding strategies. That's so much different than talking to a traditional B2B software provider. I think that's what frankly is the interesting part about what we do, and that's also what we hear from our employees over and over again, like, “I don't know what my day is going to look like, and that's the exciting part about it.” ROB: Sure, you have 7 to 10 different customers, each of which could ask you an interesting question that day or have something in their tech stack that might not be working quite as they hope. Do your teams specialize in particular marketing automation suites? Also, something I think is different – many agencies we've talked to will specialize in one. They'll have HubSpot and just be trying to increase the quality of metal that is associated with their agency with relation to HubSpot. Platinum, or I guess you can go to gems, too, with Diamonds. How do you think about the right tool for the client? JUSTIN: We were born as a Marketo consultancy, but right around the 2013-14 mark, we decided – Marketo was a predominant provider, and obviously still is, although owned by Adobe. What approach do we really want to be known for? Do we want to be known that all roads eventually end up at Marketo, or do we want to be a customer-driven solution provider? At that point, although we still have partnerships with all of these different providers, we really do take an agnostic approach where we're trying to understand, fundamentally, what is this business trying to accomplish? What is the best tech stack to reinforce that? And oftentimes that does go against hype. We may be recommending Pardot. We may be recommending an ESP, something that's much more in tune with the business goals rather than our traditional partnership. We do have specializations internally, certainly. We've got folks that have a big Pardot footprint, HubSpot footprint, Marketo footprint. If you think about the 6,000+ martechs on the market today, that gets pretty complicated pretty quickly. But really, we structure ourselves down into practices, and all of that will fall within our revenue ops practice. So those folks are constantly thinking about what skillsets we have, how we up-level those, how we maintain our certifications, and ensure that whatever comes long, we've got enough context to give the best performance for the customer. ROB: I think something that's implied – and tell me if I'm reading this correctly – by the tool stacks you're mentioning, your Pardots and your Marketos and whatnot are a little bit upmarket from the entry level marketing automation platforms. Is that a selection filter for the type of customer, or is that an outworking of the type of customer that you tend to pursue? JUSTIN: Yeah. When I say big market, I really mean $100 million and up. Everyone's got a different definition of their market levers, but for us, our best client starts around $100 million and goes up from there. I've got a Fortune 3 company right now that has an active engagement with us. So it is that mid enterprise level footprint. ROB: That sort of client often has a very high expectation of touch and relationship with their marketing providers. With that 7 to 10 customer per staffer ratio, the accounts they're serving, how do you retain that sense of touch? Or is it really, because you're delivering results, the touch is a little bit easier to manage and you're not just trying to say sweet things to them? JUSTIN: I would say regardless of how we've grown or scaled, the customer relationship has always been the centerpiece there. You're never going to get away from the fact that when something goes wrong or a customer has a question or a customer just wants a piece of information as they're going into a board meeting and they need that final piece that's going to make them look awesome, they're going to want to reach out and have someone answer the phone, answer their email, be on Slack, whatever it happens to be. Relationship is absolutely critical. Again, I think that's a unique element when you see an agency of our size that's still able to maintain not only great client relationships, but personal relationships within that. We've got folks that have called us on weekends where it's not our problem, it's not even in our space – maybe something happened in IT – but marketing knows that they've got this great partner that is great at problem-solving, and “Hey, let's reach out to them and see if they can help us.” I've been on those calls on Saturdays before. It's a tricky line. You want to make sure that you're setting boundaries and you're letting the client know, ultimately, we want a relationship and a partnership here, not something that's going to feel like a whipping boy. But I do think you can't get away from that within an agency. Any time you try to automate and people insert these separated ticketing systems and portals and things like that that their clients have to go through, I think that's always a bastardization of the client relationship. When I say 7 to 10, also, I should clarify that they may be hopping in and doing a piece of that project. Fundamentally, we've got principals aligned to those accounts that do all the account management and the relationship management. Because of your specialization, you might need to hop in and troubleshoot something on a Pardot platform or help with an integration for Marketo. But it's really critical that we maintain a one to few relationship with the folks that are charged with managing that relationship. ROB: That's aligned with what you mentioned earlier, with those different practice teams. But you probably didn't start off with a variety of practice teams, so how did this whole LeadMD thing get started? JUSTIN: The short answer is accidentally. Yes, you're absolutely right. Most agencies always start in the same manner, which is one person aligned to an account, like “Just don't piss them off. Just don't have these guys call me and say, ‘You're providing terrible service.'” Everyone focuses on that one to one. I think agencies go through a number of maturity inflection points, but certainly when you realize that's not going to work for your business long-term is probably one of the most difficult. But back to your question in terms of how this got started. I was a very young VP of Sales and Marketing at a payment startup. It was actually my first venture into startup world. I graduated in marketing. I had three marketing jobs after college; I hated all of them. Suddenly I stumbled upon this new world, which was startup. I completely fell in love with it from every dimension that you possibly could. In that business, we were selling through channel partners. We had 30+ different partners where our solution was integrated. It was a payment technology system. When we went to market and we marketed, we had to look like we were either marketing on behalf of that partner or co-marketing with that partner. We had that built into our standard agreements with them. I was managing an ESP with that requirement and pulling lists and sending out these blasts and trying to make it seem like it was a lead nurture thing, although we didn't even know what to call it back in 2006. Went out to Dreamforce and was talking to one of my buddies out there who owned a Salesforce agency. He said, “Hey, you should really talk to these guys over here.” We stumbled upon Eloqua, and I was like, “Wow, what is this?” So, we did this whole evaluation of marketing automation platforms back then, like V Trends. There were so many that are not around any longer. In fact, the only two that were in that cycle were Eloqua and Marketo. Marketo I stumbled upon eleventh hour. They had a little 10 x 10 kiosk out at Dreamforce, if that tells you anything about the year. ROB: [laughs] Which would still set them back a pretty penny. JUSTIN: Right, totally. Jon Miller, who's one of the founders, was working the booth. Bill Binch, who went on to become their CRO, was working the booth. I talked to those guys and described what I was looking for, and they showed me their platform. I was just blown away by the drag-and-drop nature, the intuitiveness of it and so on. I signed the contract right at that show. We came back, we implemented it, loved it, rolled it out to my team. Eventually I sold my piece of that business and figured I was going to do the typical, “Hey, let's go live in Italy for a year and take a year off” and so on and so forth. I flew over there. I took two weeks off. While I was over in Italy, a couple of my relationships called me and said, “Hey, can you do what you did over at this company,” which was called Billingtree. I said, “On a consulting basis? Sure, let me figure out what that would look like.” Those three clients who reached out became our first three retainer relationships. It was just me, operating in a spare bedroom, supporting these guys. Fortunately, because of the advent of marketing automation and the rise of these technologies, the phone just kept ringing. I had to bring on employees at that point, and before you knew it, we had 12 employees and I had to take an office space. Truly an accidental business for me. Not something I ever intended to get involved in. Never had run an agency before, never had run any sort of people-based business before. Always technology or payments. Just a really interesting experience that has really become the heart and soul of my businesses. I've sold four businesses since I've had LeadMD as an agency, and it's definitely the one that I am the most emotionally attached to. ROB: With the timing of you starting that business, you were a little bit before businesses probably cared about social in any way. Is that accurate? JUSTIN: That was the big conversation at the time, like, is social going to catch on? Who should be on social? Just like marketing automation, there were like 100 different social media platforms, like Big and – God, I can't even remember all the names of them. Just these random little – so everyone was playing around. I was thinking about it the other day. I can think of days where all I did was set up profiles on different social media platforms because we had no idea what was going to take off. Obviously, for business, LinkedIn has become the home for everyone, and that's where we spend the majority of our day from a sales engagement standpoint, from a content publication standpoint. But yeah, early days, that conversation was taking place across social, it was taking place across CRM, it was taking place across marketing technology and marketing automation. No one really knew what any of this stuff was going to become and if it was going to catch on. My early content creation was centered on that, like “What is this marketing automation thing and why should you care?” Every once in a while, I'll feel one of those little waves come around. Manufacturing went through that 2-3 years ago, where they're asking, “What is marketing automation and why should we care?” You get these little flashback moments as laggard industries fall into more desire for digital transformation and so on. It's interesting to feel that nostalgia when those circles come back around. ROB: I imagine when manufacturing comes around to it, you probably have some playbooks in place and some understanding of how to measure success. How do you help filter when clients are asking – you have some industrial software company who comes to you and says, “Tell us about TikTok.” Who's to say that TikTok doesn't become – at one point in your business, I imagine LinkedIn was not a place where people should be spending time. How do you start to filter and maybe experiment when something is potentially relevant, kind of relevant, or strategically critical? JUSTIN: Fortunately, questions like that all root back to the same answer, and that's the buyer. It's a great emphasis for us to start the conversation on “How well do you know the buyer that you're trying to engage? Are they spending their time on these platforms?” and really have that be the guiding light around a recommendation. Oftentimes when we first engage with a client, we've got what we call our Catalyst Marketing Framework. Essentially, it's just a big menu of dependency, like, “Hey, I want to launch this product in EMEA via a demand-generation go-to-market.” “Great, here's the 15 things that you need to have in place and shored up at a decent maturity level in order to succeed within that.” The box that always gets checked on there, i.e. the customer feels like they've done a great job around it, is, “I do customer profile research and buyer personas.” Then as we proceed down an engagement, that's also the box that tends to get rewound and revisited. We say, “Well, you felt pretty confident in that, but as we dug into the research that you have and the information you have around your buyer, there's some gaps there. Let's dive in and help you better define that process.” We have stood up a data science team. It's small but mighty. It's literally three people, but they're producing some awesome, awesome results in terms of market research, buyer definition, ideal customer profile assembly, and then the translation of that into engagement and messaging frameworks. Long story short, we answer those questions through the lens of the buyer, and it's a great opportunity for us to dive in where often a superficial look at who the buyer is has been conducted in the past. ROB: Right. I think a lot of businesses are pushed into inventing a fairytale about who their ideal customer profile is, and you having three data science people who know what to do with the data is many steps ahead from the forced hypothesis I think a lot of businesses get into. JUSTIN: That's the danger of data science, actually. The one thing we've learned about these services is you really have to set a strong foundation for the fact that data is going to be the determinant of what we do. Even when you think about the narratives that happen within an organization – like I'm extremely opinionated about who our ICP is. I get challenged all the time from our marketing team, like, “Is that truly correct still? That's something that was true 5 years ago. Let's go out and go into the market and do some research and validate that.” If you're going to open that door, you have to open the door to being really uncomfortable, because what you often find from a data perspective is incomplete data. It's the fact that you can't draw those lines without going out and doing customer interviews or prospect interviews and employee interviews. Therefore, organizations really have to be prepared to say, “A lot of these maxims that we've held up are not supported by data and may be untrue.” We've had to do a lot of expectation setting around the engagements that involve data science because the results are often quite different from what the internal narrative actually is. ROB: For sure. I appreciate your willingness to be questioned and not just to say, “I'm right and I know because I'm in charge and I've been doing this for a while.” I think that willingness to be wrong probably helps model what your own team does in engaging with clients and how to guide them through that process gently, where they may be wrong, but you're really just interested in helping everything be right. JUSTIN: I've had some meetings in the past where maybe we've involving a vendor or someone from the outside is sitting in – we had a leadership coach in, in Q4, and they were in one of these meetings and afterwards said, “Wow, the way your staff questions the things that you say, are you ever bothered by that?” My mantra is ruthless pragmatism. If you see something that doesn't make sense or isn't supported by something or you think it's assumed or you think there's a better way to do something, everyone here has the license to dive into that and really question that. I think sometimes that can be a bit uncomfortable for people from the outside. They have these strong lines of strata that are drawn where it's like someone breezes into a meeting, says something, leaves, and everyone just has to go run and do it. I think that's the value if you've got a really strong team and you embrace becoming a people-based business. ROB: That ruthless pragmatism sounds like a cousin of radical candor and that whole line of thinking. Have you had people where it turns out that it may not be a fit for the organization with that level of candor? Is there a way you filter for that on the way in? JUSTIN: We've done probably more work than I even want to admit around trying to profile for hiring and really getting into role-based profiling. We have a 200+ question survey. You don't have to answer all the 200 questions; it just says, “Answer these for an hour. Do at least 100 of the questions.” It is a psychological survey – I forget who publishes it; some university – but our data science team got a hold of it and scrubbed out a few questions that are inappropriate for an employer to ask, and now we give that up front. We don't provide the results of that survey to our team until someone's ready to make an offer. What we've done is essentially taken all of our employees, had them complete that survey – it is a personality survey, akin to a DISC or a Briggs-Meyer, and it really gives great insight into the traits and the skillsets someone's going to have. But we've also scatter-plotted those around role. So, we know that in our project management role, here's the big skillsets that stand out. We take the lens of, do we want to change that? Do we want to bring in someone that's more extroverted to push the team into a certain direction, or do we want someone that fits the existing mold? I will caveat all of this that we are by no means where we want to be in this process. It's always a maturity curve and a learning process. But I think for an agency, every single person I bring in is going to develop personal relationships with the client – I don't care if it's an associate, which is our lowest level of consultant, least amount of time in the chair; if we lose that individual, someone's going to say, “Hey, are you guys okay over there? I was really enjoying working with so-and-so. They're the key to my account.” Any loss of employee, whether it's voluntary or involuntary, is a natural stick in the eye of an agency, so we have to be really careful about who we bring in. We have to be really intentional about the types of people we're looking for. It all boils down to the desire to employ owners, like people that are going to own whatever they're working on. 50% of this organization is owned by our employees, literally, through an equity program. We want that to foster the type of environment that we're trying to create and be a representation of that. But that's so difficult to uncover, even when you take 2 or 3 months through an interview process. There's so much that comes out in the day to day that you just can't get exposure to. Every day we're trying to get better. ROB: Fascinating, Justin. Based on what you've learned so far in building LeadMD, what are some things you might do differently if you were starting over right now? JUSTIN: God, there's probably a host of them. I would say certainly one of the first things I would do is go to specializations earlier. We spent a lot of time trying to hire for these unicorn generalists that could do strategy and be really adept at tactics. We spent a lot of time pulling our hair out, wondering, “Why can't we find more of these people?” The short answer is because they're incredibly rare and rarely exist. I would certainly go more into a segmented and a specialty type of approach earlier. I'd also say – you have to remember the year that this was formed, 2009. People rarely knew what marketing automation was. They didn't know what it did. Certainly no one was implementing it around any sort of consistent methodology. We productized our offerings very early, but when we did so, we also really painted ourselves into a corner. For a number of years, we became a Marketo implementation shop because all of our products were focused on that implementation or optimization motion. Then we had to spend a lot of time unwinding that and getting back to our roots and fundamentals of starting with strategy, starting with the real reasons why, and building from there. The brand ramifications that that has in terms of the runway and the necessary rebranding and the time it takes to get that optic to change is something that added a lot of lead time to our business that I wish it hadn't. Productizations is really critical in terms of trying to define the quality of outputs, but I would not take such a laser-focused productization approach. ROB: I want to pull on something there a little bit, because I think what may often happen is that you're starting, and you're the superhero, and then you hire some people who are pretty good superheroes too and do all of those things, but as you said, they're sort of unicorns. I think sometimes there's a tension in the billing model that can make pulling that apart a little bit difficult. You feel like, “I'm charging X amount for a superhero; how do I switch to charging for a team?” Was that something you learned, or did you have a different path through that transition and that challenge? JUSTIN: Yeah, absolutely. Fortunately, there was a degree of immaturity and inexperience that set our original pricing. I'll say something that's quite embarrassing and I rarely admit: when we first launched this business, our rate per hour was $75 bucks an hour because I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Right now it's $300, and $500 for end version work. So, we had a lot of room to grow there because I was charging $75 bucks an hour for my own time. As we adjusted along the lines of what you're describing, which is you have this rock star, “I've been charging X for them; now I need to scale, I need to charge potentially the same X for that individual,” we were able to scale our pricing up on the upper bound rather than having to have it come down. Early days, I had a lot of competitors that were very upset with me because of the pricing that we were introducing to the market, and it was just my own inexperience, quite frankly, that made that happen. ROB: Now I think you have some pricing that is probably aspirational for a lot of people who are listening, who would like to figure out how to charge $300 or $500 just for their own time, much less for somebody who they've brought onto their team. I think there's probably a lot to learn in the middle there that makes it easier to learn –  JUSTIN: Sorry to interrupt, but we still run into downward pricing pressure, of course. We'll run into a $25 million hypergrowth organization with another $50 million bucks in funding, and they have no problem paying for anything. Like, “Okay, great, send me over the MSA.” Then we'll run into a global, highly visible, highly well known brand – and I won't say the name, but the biggest rideshare organization out there – and they'll throw something out like, “Hey, we don't pay more than $165 an hour for consulting.” We went through an incredible procurement cycle there. We don't dip down that low. The only thing that really adjusts that mentality for the client, I think, is being able to call in references and referrals from folks that look like them that say, “Yeah, an hour with them is expensive, but only because it's worth three employees. Only because it's knowledge that you're never going to get internally, you can't hire for it, and it's really uncommon what they're combining over there.” You've got to build up – and certainly discounting and things like that are critical to building up those referral sources and getting people to take a chance on you. But once you've got both a good stockade of references and folks willing to go to bat for you, I think that's the most powerful lever that you can pull there. Like, “Let me put you in touch with someone that you respect that we've worked with, and let me have them give you the story.” ROB: There's so much wisdom there to unpack. You're talking about the referrals; earlier, woven into the conversation, you also talked about LeadMD in a consulting role, and you talked particularly about benchmarking. You've positioned yourself alongside Deloitte and some other folks that I think really helps elevate that brand profile instead of saying, “Hey, we are Scottsdale Agency #25 and we are here to help you get some leads.” JUSTIN: Yeah, totally. People think in terms of stories. How many people have put “We want to be the Facebook of X or the Uber of Y” in their pitch deck? People need frames of reference, and I think that really helps them do so. We are the combination between the best strategic Deloitte out there and the best independent consultant you can think of, because they both have really great aspects to them, but they also both have downfalls. The reason we exist is to eliminate those downfalls. So I agree. I think you need to speak their language. There needs to be a shared vocabulary established there. ROB: Really solid. Justin, when people want to find you and LeadMD, where should they go? JUSTIN: They can of course go to the Google machine, but the best channel to get me at is certainly Twitter or LinkedIn. I'm @jgraymatter on Twitter. On LinkedIn, you can just search for me, Justin Gray. LeadMD is just leadmd.com. We use Drip, so there's a little chat feature on there. You can mention that you want to chat with me or anyone within the organization, and we can hop on and have a bit of a discussion there. I love to talk to anyone that's curious about business, marketing, sales, life, any of those topics. I'm happy to lend my time. I find those conversations very interesting. So if you have a question, please reach out. ROB: Perfect. Thanks so much, Justin, for coming on and sharing so much about that LeadMD journey. It sounds like a really excellent ride. JUSTIN: Thanks, Rob. Appreciate it. ROB: Thank you. Take care. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed the Coronavirus, Covid-19, the different tools that can be used for remote work and the security issues that businesses are facing during these quarantines. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Jack Unlike stay quarantined for a couple of weeks, what do they say? Justin 12 days, 14 days come self-quarantine, Justin something like that. Yeah. And I think the worry is Jack that's going to be impactful on the economy. Justin Yeah, I think that Yeah. I don't think anybody's panicking, per se and nobody's telling anybody Jack I know some who are. Justin Now I don't think that's the case. At least not in this country in other countries. You see it because it's more widespread in other countries. But the issue is, if the same number of people got the Covid-19 has got the flu, then you would see, you know, what was three and a half percent death rate right now that wouldn't be the same. If more people got it, but you're looking at, you know, way more people dying. If this spread is real. Jack I'm not saying it's not there. It's just fear is not always rational. And there's a lot of it, for example, you know, like if and I'm using an example from my past years of media, I used to be asked by people, why does the media cover a homicide so much when it only impacts the victim and you know, a handful of people? It's because it's dramatic. So, if you had a couple of like, terrible crimes in your town, what do people do? They lock their doors. They take precautions. They react, even if the odds of it happening to them are very few. So, I'm saying I, you know, it's like any fear factor people get they get nervous. Sure. That's what's going to impact a lot in this economy. People are going to postpone things change things to try and not get this and maybe the only way to limit the spread, right. Justin There's so much that's still unknown about it. I think one of the fears that I'm not going to get into it, but the handling of it hasn't been excellent so far. Hopefully, that changes. I think those factors in as well. Yeah, Jack Yeah, well, some people, of course. Then other people going on to live their life without any deviation because I tend to think that typically in this time of year, we are pretty well trained, or should be on how not to get The flu. Regular influenza, you know, if you go to the gym, if you go to the pub, wash your hands, if you get sick, do something about it fairly quickly. Don't try and spread it. These are all things that help but believe it or not, some people forget all right. We're going to keep it posted. Chuck's not a great start to start the mock markets. We'll come back with him in a moment, Craig Peterson, on the Tech Talk side of things, Craig. Good morning to you, sir. How are you? Craig Hey, good morning. You know, there's a lot of talk going on right now about working from home. I've got a few tips for people. I'll be doing a Facebook Live or two this week, trying to run through some of these things because there's so much to consider when it comes to working at home. First off, you're probably going to want to use some teleconferencing platform. There are many of them out there, but there's only one that's secure. And believe it or not, we have some serious issues when it comes to remote workers in most businesses. We will see because of this Major increases in business attacks. So, number one, WebEx, which is made by Cisco. It is a company that I deal with all the time we use it, and we sell it. WebEx made by Cisco is by far the most secure teleconferencing platform. They have WebEx teams that let you work together as teams kind of like Slack, but much more secure. It's available for free right now, because of the Coronavirus. So have a look at that over WebEx. VPNs are something that many businesses are all of a sudden started using. Then there are these screen sharing desk sharing and Remote Desktop Software people are going to use so they can hop on their computer at work, a great idea. However, it's going to be a terrible problem for businesses because business computers are usually secure. They're typically up to date with their networks are protected. When you are putting a VPN in, you're allowing unprotected computers in the home environment or at the coffee shop, who knows where now you're letting them direct access to your company's networks, and it's going to cause nightmares. There is a lot to know there's a lot to learn. I'm going to do a couple of free things this week, and I am not selling a darn thing. I will be helping businesses understand more about this. If you are interested you can email me at Craig Peterson dot com if you want to hop on to one or more of those live calls, I'll do it this week. Even emails are going to be an issue because people are going to be sending them using mobile devices. This, Jack, this is going to be nuts from a security standpoint. Jack Well, I'm sure, and there'll be people that always take advantage of people in a tough situation and the other. Still, the other thing too technology will help minimize some of this quarantine cost to the economy because people can, in some cases, work from home. Many many cases today, but you know physical construction, remodeling, hospitality, healthcare, there are other things you can do telemedicine is going to help a lot. But sometimes you need to, and if you're a healthcare worker, you need to go to the hospital to work. If you're a work in the restaurant industry, you need to make the food, you need to go clean something if you're so you, technology will help here, but it won't solve everything. But Thank you, Craig. Craig Most businesses are just not ready for it yet, Jack. Take care, Jack. Jack Craig Peterson with the Tech Talk side of things. You know, many businesses are putting plans together. What happens if one employee tests positive and has to go home? What if they worked in an area near 20 other employees. Do you begin to see multiple effects? Unknown Speaker 5:46 All right. I wish there were better news in the economy. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

The end of 2019 has arrived. Let's recap Path of Exile through 2019 and end with a bang! Giveaway information:Twitter Tweet to RetweetReddit Post for Episode 6Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Welcome to forever Exiled. The Path of Exile podcast. This is technically Episode six, but it's going to be our bonus. New Year's Eve and Day episode. I am one of your host, Justin a k a. TagzTyler: and I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days.Justin: Make sure you check out the rest of this episode right up until the end because we may have a sexy giveaway coming up anyway. Ty, how are you doing? Well, how are you? Good. So this is gonna be our our extra bonus for fun. Super awesome. Episode six I agree. So, uh, path of exile G just released today their best of 2019 video, which was awesome. If you haven't checked it out, make sure you watch it. Maybe we'll put a link in the show notes just so you can find it. I think they're coming up with some more information on there. Accomplishments and bragging tomorrow, which is New Year's Eve will be tomorrow. So hopefully will be out there and live with everybody at the same time. So, yeah, let's let's ah, let's jump into it. So we figured it'd be kind of fun to look back a year at what grinding gear games development plan for 2019 was and assuming like we will continue this for the next 15 or 16 years, we'll be able to do this. We'll be able to do this at the end of each year and kind of see what was announced the previous year and sort of where things went from there. So we've got the development plan for 2019 from grinding gear games last year. 2019. Here's what they say. 2019 will see the release of four significant Path of Exile updates in the form of 3.6 and March 3.7 in June, 3.8 in September and 3.9 in December. These releases will follow the formula we have been using over the last few years, introducing a challenge league, various expansion features, new character, skill, archetypes to play, and masses of other fixes and quality of life improvementsTyler: while working on the 2019 updates. We also hope to make significant progress on the four point Omega expansion, which we now know as path of exile, too likely coming sometime in 2020. For those unfamiliar with our version numbering system, Once we've released Update 3.9, we are forced to number the next 14 point. Oh, for example, the version after 3.9 and March is 3.10 as we do not expect to release 4.0 in the first part of next year. Development of 4.0 is a massive task that is absolutely affected by our desire to continue to release sizable leagues at our usual pace. So we're taking our time and making sure it's ready before we decide on a release date. 20Justin: nine. Teen culminates in the Exile Con Fan convention in November, where we can announce and demonstrate December's 3.9 expansion, as well as a small preview of 4.0, this convention takes place approximately 2 to 3 weeks before the 3.9 release, so you should be able to play a near final build at the show. We expect to put Tickets are for sale in the next couple of weeks.Tyler: We're also putting the finishing touches on the PlayStation four version of Path of Exelon should be able to announce a release date in the near future. It's going to be a busy year.Justin: So that was the development plan for 2019 Fergie and I will say I think they hit all of them. They nailed it. Yeah, I think they did. And they were very good at their ah, super chilled idea of what four point I was going to be in comparison to what we found out November. So we're going to get to that part sort of Indian. Let's let's break down the league's because we've had now a year we've had were in the fourth league for this this year. So it's obviously three have been completed. Ones very, very new. So let's let's jump through each of them. So we'll go 3.63 point six was the synthesis leak.Tyler: Mmm. Do you rember what you bladeJustin: synthesis for me Now? I I don't entirely know. I do remember playing arc totems. Ah, for quite a bit of it, just because so synthesis was a huge cast early there were that was the league of ah, huge changes to spells and just casting in general, mainly kind of got kicked a little bit and just was left alone. But casting was a big one So for me, my main one was, uh, was arc totems and it actually carried me. I think I played it quite a bit. Brill League. And I think that one took me to 97 or so. I think ITyler: lied Well, and I laughed and I laughed. That was the one league where you are. Totems was just storing everything. You could have done it with your eyes closed. You're having a great time. And you bailed on it to make something else because you felt like it was too slow. And you're flying. I mean, it was like a split second. I couldn't even hit like the start stop button fast enough to to say how fast you were laying your total's. But it was too slow for you. And so you respect?Justin: Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember too much what I did after that. Only because that that was a big league for me. Just in currency. I had the I can't remember the name of it, but the Mir dhe shield that I ended up selling for I remember selling all of my ark totem gear for I don't know, 60 or 70 exults and just playing around and going crazy and then not carrying after that point. What did you play them? You remember?Tyler: Uh, I don't remember playing it, but I had it written down. It was how I do my lists of characters. My 3.6 build was an R f character. Okay, remember playing it, but I'm sure it did. Great.Justin: Nice. So, synthesis. It was not a great release. So it wasn't. Ah, it wasn't my favorite. While we can talk about favorite ones later. But the system wasTyler: confusing. Yeah, and they're confusing.Justin: And there's not a whole lot of it left in theTyler: game. No, no, it definitely went by the wayside in terms of how it could fit into the current court game. Um, you barely ever see. It really only exists for as I've seen it. Um, it only exists in Zana maps. When you see her in a map, you could have a synthesis map as one of your options. And that's really the only way that I've come across it. Naturally. I don't remember any other way that they've tried to infuse it, but that's that's it. I remember. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say I remember it being a league. That was as as much effort as they put into it. I remember it being a leak, that I was completely happy to just skip the content, just go right past whoever was that was doing all the since this stuff and I just play the map and do the atlas. Normally,Justin: the idea behind it when it was first announced seemed really cool to me. The way it actually played out, I found overwhelmingly confusing. It was really difficult to plan out the I don't even know what you would call it. The map type thing that they had. I didn't find it. There were so many issues where ah ah, block the memory segments. Yeah, an area would, like, clear out for some reason, Or you couldn't. I just didn't like how that function work. There was way too much extra added to the game. And can you even go there? Can you see? What was it called? The nexus, I think. Yeah. I think that's what it was called. Can you still together? IsTyler: every Texas not that I know of? No, I don't think you can get the pieces of memory anymore, but you can still get synthesized items. That cannon all within a synthesized map.Justin: Yeah, it was It was It was a I don't know what the word is that it was ah, valiant attempt to try and make something new to the game. But to me, it was way, way, way, way too much. It was like, what was the one in the previous year with the the boards and all the lines and everything that would, uh, go between all of the bosses? It was the one with the change of the craft.Tyler: Um oh, syndicate. No, no, it's not called syndicate. I was calling in to getJustin: the mail. It was to me, it was like that. It was adding way too much of the game, and I just wanted to kill stuff, but so that actually kind of leads into legion. So that was synthesis. It was a fun league, but I did not touch the league mechanics almost atTyler: all. It's It's one of its unique, I think since I've started playing, which was in the early two's, um, it was unique in the sense that there's a lot of the times where they have to make a lot of changes. Right? Remember with synthesis, they had that blue stuff that would be coming in, and it would really start to cave in on us what it was speed game, right? So they had to modify it a lot. And even though this was now 2018 but you mentioned betrayal, they modified betrayal a lot to try and balance it for people that were leveling cleared two people that like Game and so that happens in a lot of leagues, and that's just how it goes. But it was one of those leagues where this bite all the changes that they made to try and balance it properly so that it could be playable. It was the mechanic itself that held a lot of people. That, and just matching the memory fragments, being able to store the fragments, figuring out how they work to the best ability was from what I found from what I read. From what I remember, that was the hardest part about the league.Justin: I had a blast in the league, but I did not enjoy the league mechanic. I loved the castor changes. I love the you know the skill reworks. I really, really liked a lot of the changes that they made for game play, but I did not like the guy just didn't enjoy the synthesis side of of the league. But are we good with 3.6? Yeah, let's move on. So 3.6 goes through, 3.7 comes out in. That's legion. And now legion. I think one of my favorite things about legion the Legion, was it was dummy proof. It was relatively simple. It was very much breach ish. Not obviously the same exactly is breach. But the idea that you would just come across them while you play it. You could do them while you were in a map or in his own, and it didn't require you to really have to do much else. You got to fight additional mobs, and there was obviously other stuff that could happen within that you know how the league was set up. But the overall way that it worked was super simple. Super simple.Tyler: Yeah, You see it in the map, you hit the button, you just kill as much as you can. Yeah. Maybe they'll kill you if you unlock too much there. Too tough. Or maybe you killed them all. And then you move on, you pick up your loot, you keep going. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it.Justin: Yeah. And then so with that league, they also came up with a huge Malay rework, which wasTyler: awesome, especially because the amount of crying melee fans did in 3.6 for the castor league. It was really nice toe. Have those wines dissipate in 3.7? Yeah, andJustin: and while it was a really, really cool mainly rework, which has really a lot of that stuff even now it's still very useful to Malay builds. A lot of the changes that they made are still super appreciated. It also became literally the cyclone leak. It did. It did. And because of the way that legion worked, I loved the legion part where you would just you'd find it in a map, click it, you'd break a bunch of stuff. You kill a bunch of guys and you keep moving on. I wasn't a huge fan of the endgame side of it where you would go to that that I can't remember what it was called the other area. And you could, you know, based on how many you wanted to do, was the domain of the timeless conflict. Look at you. Ah, that part to me was not my favorite. Only because I had seen what people could do in there with insane gear. And it just made you feel like, very weak. Didn't like. Yeah, yeah. What did you play? Do you remember what you played in that in that leak?Tyler: Yeah, that was my blocking build my trigger Happy build that I do. And ah, it was perfect for it. Um, I was using Cyclone with it. Now I've recently changed it. The last leaguer to To what's it called Laid Storm. But I did Cyclone for that league with Max block build. And it would have worked really well except trigger skills had almost 100% reproduction crash associate ID for the first month. So I really tried to play, but because I had all three trigger skills on my on my build, I didn't know and they didn't really know they did. It wasn't fixed for about the first month, so Unfortunately, I didn't get a lot of playing time andJustin: didn't actually last that long. Was it aTyler: month? It was a month before the trigger skills Scott fixed. It takes time to figure out like that for long was the longest time because it was a cyclone build. They were really focused on trying to fix the mechanics and cycle behind the scenes because they thought cycling is causing a lot of crashes. It ended up causing very few, but it was a focus and it's just how it works, so not as a criticism. It's just what was impacting my specific build took quite a while to fix. And so by then, two people that I play with were kind of Douglas Aly.Justin: Maybe. I definitely don't think it was specific to the type of build you play, though, because that was the league where Cyclone became channeling and that made a huge difference to what you could do with it. And so you saw so many of the on effect skills now in used with cyclone, which was cool. Now I played flicker strike on Lee becauseTyler: I don't know why I actually don't remember what made me think A flicker strike. You're trying to make me throw up.Justin: Maybe. Maybe it was my goal. Just 100%. Be sure I wouldn't play with you. I'm not sure, but, uh, I will say it was the first league in I have played since was April 2012 in the in the beta. This was my very first headhunter drop where it actually draw, right? And so that was in one of the Legion things that was actually glacier farming, which was a big thing for me in that league. And I remember it dropped as a unique leather belt. And I was laughing because Ethan, who was who was in my office at the time, and I, you know, kind of just said to him, Of course, it's a tease. I'm not gonna pick it up. What a waste. I know it's gonna be garbage worms, Moulter. Whatever it is, um and so I most over top of it in both of us, just like crap their pants. Because it was it was actually centered, so that that was probably my favorite part of it.Tyler: That's if you were to have a highlight reel. That's that'd be rightJustin: at the top. Yeah, it was cool to have. I've had ahead 100 before, but they've always been through currency, so this is kind of cool to actually have one draw.Tyler: That's awesome.Justin: Yeah. And then So this was also the change. This latte league changed to the five sockets, which obviously allowed you forgetting to That owe me and you were talking aboutTyler: Oh, you mean the map device was able to have five sockets? Yeah, you could find that. I was pretty cool, right? Still in the game, they say still in the game. Is it if this didn't remove it, but I I haven't come across it, YouJustin: know, myself, either. Yeah, it and then timeless jewels were and they were in that the guy didn't play much with, um, they confused the hell out of me. I don't want to see a jewel with just a bunch of numbers, and you have to just put it in to find out what it was just just wasn't for me, But it was fun, Lee. I liked I liked legion. So, Jenny, we're good with legion.Tyler: I believe so.Justin: Legion then leads into blight, So blight comes out. I found it, actually, at little shocking that it was tower defense. It made me laugh when they announced it. And this was the league of monster minion buffs, which I knew you were in love with, obviously, since I readTyler: it. I am a minion. Pet lover, depending. What game you come from. I am hollow vote minions. My league. It was fantastic.Justin: So what did you play that league?Tyler: Zombies. What? Well, I did. They made a lot of I wasn't originally gonna plays office. I was. There's 11 or two of my guides. I've only played on Collins. Wanna have a plate on PC? And so I really wanted to play one of the other ones. But there were so many changes to minions and not just minions like the core gem like zombies was modified substantially from 3.73 point eight. But then they added an insane amount of very different but also powerful. Um, support gems like feeding, frenzy and meat shield and death Mark. And then they changed the values of the corresponding like minion damage and minion speed to accommodate those new additions and how minions leveled and then the whole necromancer ascendancy. It was so different that I had to play it just to see what it was like for the sake of replying to guide responses. But it was really good. ObviouslyJustin: it was the first league for me since again. I want to say it was backing closed Beta. Uh, when I was playing, I think one of my very first builds I ever played was minions. And I remember one of the very first things I ever message the developers to say was there needs to be a counter like the idea that I can't see how many zombies I have out is really difficult to play, how a minion build. And so this was, I think, my first time touching minions. Besides, I played with us rs a little bit, but I don't think I touch onions for years, years and years. Of course, with this league, you really there wasn't I mean, I could have played other stuff, but it just said it made so much sense to play around with with millions, and it was fun. It was the easiest league start I've ever had ever in the history of path of exile. I remember going, but this is something's wrong. This is.Tyler: Well, you didn't zombies for your league start, right? You didn't do any different. Yeah,Justin: No, I went zombies and it was just It was better. It was so smooth. And I remember laughing to you. Maybe a month in just jokingly saying that. Oh, boy, you're zombies are going to take a hit. I think it was actually right after celestial zombies came out. I was like, All you're screwed. That's it. That's the curse. Once you could stay with celestial. You're done. Yeah, So that that actually, for me, blight didn't last a super long time. But I do remember ending it with celestial everything. Of course, I got every single celestial, empty X had a bunch of the minions in the celestial on. Did you? Did you like the blighted leak? Did you like the towerTyler: defense again? I really liked it. I'm I was apathetic to the tower defense part, but I am a huge fan. My favorite leagues are the ones that just let me kill stuff right away. And so I love things like blight. You know, I love it when I have an insane amount of rogue exiles on the map. I just love it. What is it? Reach where they come out of the ground. Just love it. So this one was similar to that? I didn't have to go anywhere else to find my to do the lead content. And they were just comes rushing at you, which is great. Um, I I was apathetic to the tower stuff, so I basically just looked for the closest checkpoint. Her choke point or two made them slow and then let my minions deal with the rest. And Natalie, because zombies were so overpowered, that strategy did work. It was their intense to make towers almost required, unless you had an insanely over powerful built. So, um, I did like it. I love that the minions just came rushing at you, or I guess not passing pod, whatever that was called, but yeah, no, I really liked it. If if it worked, if it worked.Justin: Sure. I think my favorite part about Blight was sister Cassius. Oh, here singing and was listening in. And she just didn't give a damn about you either. Was almost irritated that you were there.Tyler: Yeah, Yeah, she needed you. And that pissed her off. Yeah, it was pretty funny. I do the one thing about blight. It would have been It was very difficult. I primarily play console and it people had to really, really do specific builds that weren't busy for a Minion League. Blight was too busy, right? I mean, everybody's has a lot of minions out, and then there's an insane amount of monsters out with a lot of hit points. And there was It was just a slide show on normal consoles, not just the original P s foreign Xbox one, but the the second version of thumb. Even some people with the Higher and PS four and Xbox one X they they'd run into some pretty big slide. So slideshow stuff, too, depending on it. So for ah, Minion League blight kind of counteracted itself with with what would be overpowered and successful. So a lot of the streams that you would see we're primarily PC, especially as you got later into the league, because only a higher NPC could actually handle a full blight map. The full board of minions. But I really liked it. I just wish it I just wishJustin: it worked, right? I do remember hearing people struggling with the blighted maps in later in game, just with the amount of stuff that would happen on your own screen. And then you multiply that by a 1,000,000,000 with the amount of mobs that were coming outTyler: and they didn't even implement it into console immediately. It was so challenging because of the frame rate issues and such on PC. They implemented it into 3.9 right away. But they didn't don't console and they're fixed on console was to just make less paths less minions. And it's just so easy. Mmm, It's so easy. It's Ah, I mean, I'm glad it's in it. I'm glad it's in it, butJustin: I've actually done them more while I run into them. Yeah, me, too. It's kind of nice It I guess it's nice because they're not so often. I never I never had a problem with the the Tower defense, but I also never cared to do much else Besides the reason ones. I would hit the ice ones and then just sit back in the middle and let my let the minions just do their thing in the middle. Yeah, I rememberTyler: doing. I like I like it. I don't mind. Some people have an issue when they have to stay in a spot and fight enemies. I don't care as long as there's enemies and I really like blight and breach. What's the abyss for those types of ones? I really like them. Overall, I thought it was a great legal.Justin: And then we went into the current league, which there's not a whole lot to talk about, just cause it's so new.Tyler: Well, they nerved one minion from 3.8. Do you know which one mother, actually, too. That's true. It was, in vectors, passions on these songs andJustin: then the support James. Now that being said, we've talked about this in the in the patch notes, ones necessary changes, maybe a little heavy handed. Hopefully, it's adjusted a little bit, but, uh,Tyler: yeah, because I think it was fair. I was pretty broken hearted, and I wasn't overly kind with, uh, my opinion of it, But I do think it wasJustin: after the human stuff. Yeah, it was kind of necessary. Now they did a huge Bo Ri work with 3.9Tyler: 3.9. That was the bowl leak or is the bulletJustin: is in the bowl league? So what now? It's funny that we say it's the bowl EQ. What are you playing?Tyler: Playing about build and I'm playing a build every every boat skill got buffed or modified to be relevant is this league. But there were two to Bo won support and one primary scale active skill that got Ah, I guess nerved would be appropriate. I played elemental hit. I lost a lot of damage compared to 3.8, and I'm playing with its link to the ballistic totem support, which is brand new. Um, they changed that from the attack, told him support which originally you could only lay one at a time unless you invested further in the tree with items. Now it can lay three so and blisters are brand new to the league. This league, too. It's a new type of attack totem that you have to lay within Malay Range as opposed to being able to swell. So But yeah, uh, my my specific build got hit hard, but this is a bow league, and people are going both crazy and they're lovingJustin: it. I skipped Bo's entirely for this league so far. I decided to go a spectral throw. I'm having a really good time, actually. Meta morph. I have struggled a little bit with some stuff. First time with S S f for quite a long time. But it's I like it. The Metamor stuff again. I have found this league more challenging, I think, for in a positive way, Not just like Okay, dump chaos, damage on me, like in syndicate or right, uh, make a stupid area that closes on me within, like, three seconds. As soon as I move like synthesis. This is This is legit. Like, if it's difficult, it's my fault. I made it harder. I love that. I absolutely love that.Tyler: Yeah, me too. I love that you can take You could make it. I mean, it's still gonna be a boss fight if you took all white items. But you can take the easiest body parts and make the easiest boss you can. And if you have a really weak build, you'll you'll do. Okay, right. But if you have ah, pretty good. Not the best billed as you're leveling and you do all the hardest ones, it's gonna be a hard fight, and it's I thought it was really well balanced right off the bat. A lot of the changes they've made weren't to these new bosses. That was really cool. One thing that I love that meta morph added just into the core game was completely was much harder enemies, they added. Armor and elemental increase. Resistance is in chaos. Resistance is they increased the life off bosses and enemies and rare Sze everywhere. And they just made the game. They didn't increase their damage, but they increased their survivability, and it has made the game itself a lot harder. Meta morph is a great league and the changes they made to the core game that they introduced with meta morph and perfect timing. Of course, because you're making a boss league and then you're adding all these extra boss survivability things into the game as well. I was perfect cohesion, and I think they did a really good job. They haven't changed any of it. It's awesome.Justin: Yeah, I don't even remember. Are the changes for that tied to the metamorphosis? Igor, This conquers of the atlas. It's kind of hard to tell which was for what.Tyler: It's well, it's all the same, right? I mean, it's tied two unique enemies. It's tied to this of the very specific map. Bosses were individually tweaked. Yeah, I mean, some of them boss fights were completely rebound anyway. But for those existing ones there, they were specifically tweet so that they were an appropriate level. It wasn't just flat, you know, This this tear all got the same percentage of health increase. From what I remember them saying anyway, so it's all intertwined.Justin: So then tied in with 3.9 and metamorphoses this the big end game change to the atlas of Now we're into the conquers of the atlas. We've got new new endgame. Bosses knew endgame story, and I mean, we're both relatively new into it. I think you're a bit further than I am, but again, I've had a blast. It's made. It's made mapping much more challenging at a lower tier, and that's fun. I like that.Tyler: Yeah, definitely. I'm I think it's it's done a very good job. So far, I've heard that higher up that there's some some issues with people that were David Cook to complete certain quests or boss fights, or that certain items weren't falling within a proper area. But for the most part, this has been this league tied with the new endgame that they've created. To me, it's it path of excels always tried to be a very difficult game. And trying to incorporate what people want in the game and what they want in the game is obviously a very tricky thing. I well, I would assume for them say so in their interviews. And it's, I think this has done just a fantastic job of making the game difficult while keeping the game powerful.Justin: Yep, Yeah, I agree. And it's again. It's a little hard to judge because we're three weeks, two weeks into it, into the league, so it's still got a bit of legs behind it before we see how it all plays out. But so far it's been a positive experience.Tyler: Yeah, the one thing I really like about this new endgame for Metamor are not for many more, but the conquers of the atlas is that you are going to see the same bosses that you're gonna fight it. The end throughout the atlas. Not just that. Yeah, and I think that is so good. G has tried to make this game more accessible to new people over and over without making the game easier. And the huge problem that a lot of new people, if they made it to t fifteens and sixteen's, which they would be able to clear a T 15. No problem. They'd crush the Boston problem than they'd meet a guardian and they get crushed. And this new method that they have of fighting the same boss but then in multiple tears as you get further and further into the atlas. It's nice because you're now familiar with the boss as it's getting harder, and I think it's a lot more accessible to new people. And I think they did a really good job considering that, too.Justin: I think it'll be curious to see how that plays out as we get further into the Alice, because for me, I it's hard for me to say I definitely agree with you. It's cool that you're already hitting endgame bosses in like tear fours and fives, and that's just gonna you know, you're gonna only able to expand on that as you get further along. But I haven't gotten there yet, so it's hard to say, Yeah, I'm loving it It just as much when I'm into your 15th and 16th yet So that's cool. Yeah, it has been good so far. All right, so here's a question for you. We'll start. We'll start with the negative side first just because I know you're a positive positive guy. So, yeah, what was your least favorite league? And why of those four? And it's kind of hard because I know madam, or so new, but I highly doubt it. It will be the one. But which of those we've got 3.6 a synthesis. 3.7. His legion 3.8 is blight. And then the current 3.9 metamorphose, which was your least favorite league. And whyTyler: synthesis was easy to ignore if you didn't like it. Legion. I really liked the mechanics, but my specific build didn't get fixed for a month. I think my least favourite was blight. Now I really liked blight, but there's the common sense of making your meta being capable of doing your mechanic, and they didn't coincide at all and because I'm a console player and G knows about their console games, and they need to be able to make their game for the least efficient platform that they release it on. I think blight was my least favorite because I couldn't play it on my favorite platform.Justin: Yeah, okay, so for me, my least favorite would be It's probably synthesis. But it's kind of unfortunate for me to say that because I played synthesis much, much longer than blamed much longer, I would say almost twice as long as Blake. I played synthesis, and that was because I loved the changes to spells. It made the milk fund to play. But I absolutely hated the league mechanic. I just could not. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun at all. Where is Blight it? Ah, it almost seemed a little bit too easy. And I didn't have any interest in the the the Blight mechanic. So and that literally was the endgame. Yeah. You know, as you leveled, there wasn't anything new that you were introducing towards the end game. And so I found a burnt out real fast, but synthesis for me. If I'm looking at it, from a league perspective, I hated. Synthesis is engaged. I did not like any of the the nexus stuff. I felt completely lost all the time on that one, like figuring it out. So for me, that that was me I loved, absolutely loved the actual plane of that league and the skills and the reworks and stuff. One of my favorites. But the actual lead mechanic to me was the blight wasn't poorly done. It wasn't that the league mechanic was poorly done. It just I didn't interest me, was great. But the synthesis league mechanic, to me was a little bit shortsighted and definitely wasn't one of my least favorite ones. But now let'sTyler: move away from the brightest guys so I could see how synthesis confuses you.Justin: I know I like simple, simple. So let's move awayTyler: from you go. You go first on this one, you go first.Justin: Okay, So this is gonna be our favorite, which was our favorite league. And why you go legion for sure. I'm really liking meta morph. I can't say for sure until the end of this league where they'll line up Legion introduced so many Malay where he works that I've been working for. Well, we're looking forward to forever. And so I tend to lean more towards the mainly type skills. It's just more fun for me, and I loved a lot of the changes that they did and Legion League Mechanic was was dummy proof. It was It was so simple to play. I wasn't a really big fan of that hole. Put the five things and I did it, you know, I played it. I did beat the one with all five, and but I felt like it was so forced to go that the cyclone route, if you really want, especially once the headhunter had dropped it. It made it really easy to go, and I just have a couple swords and put on the belt in the hallway. But the the lead mechanic to me, was a lot of fun. It was within the map. Side is what I'm referring to like. It made it very, very easy to just play the atlas to just play my build. Maley was strong, and so for me, as a Finnish league, it's the only one I can compare it to, because anymore so far has actually been a lot of fun, but we're like 23 weeks in, so I can't really give it the top for me. So what about you?Tyler: Catch for me was it's meta morph. Really, I know we're only that into it, but it's ah, it's harder right now. I know. Adding all the resists in defense for enemies is isn't necessarily for the league itself, right? That's just core. Game change is kind of like the endgame. But coupling that with adding bosses that you can choose how difficult they are you could specifically choose rewards like I want more rare items are away. Should I do, ah, unique item or should I do more currency drops and you're actually guaranteed at least something of what you've chosen. Now you don't know what the body parts are gonna offer you money from all of your options. You you're picking your rewards, which is so great in a game like this, you're picking the difficulty based on the reward, which is so great you can pick the location in the map where you're gonna fight. Um, it's just it's awesome. And I love one thing that, like I mentioned before about G one in this game. Hard, but people wanting to clear it in the blink of an eye. This slows the game down, right? Like we've we've talked who will get to excel con in a bit. But one thing that they really wanted to do with Pee wee, too, was really slow. The game down. And this is a huge step in that direction, even a year before Pee Wee to comes out is you're slowing down these enemies air rough. You need a really good build to destroy the really hard metamorphose and a moderately leveled build. Or one that's still trying to find its gear, still trying to find that right to weapon full of mods that they would boost their DPS quite a lot. It's gonna be a challenge, and you're and you're making tough choices. I love Metamor for that, and it's and it's metamorphose itself is stable, rock solid, stable, right? A lot of the issues that have come out with 3.9 have actually been with a new endgame, not with metamorphosis thing. It's been bug free, but I just think it's been the most stable. It's been the most exciting. It's the most. I'm spending time looking at my screen, choosing what I want to do. It's not just blind. I love it. I absolutely love it.Justin: Who are the 3.9 for you? That's nice. Yeah, alright, it's a legion. I do like metamorphic. We'll see how it plays out. Okay, so you actually brought it up. But let's one of the final things that they talked about in their development plan for 2019 was Excel Con. So x o Khan was obviously a huge deal for people who like Path of Excel. Ah, whether you went or not, just the idea that they were doing it was awesome. The fact that this indie development game was going to be, you know, has grown to the size of holding its own conference or a game. And then not only are they doing it, but they're gonna hold it in literally the for this place, every other country on Earth, that that's awesome. The fact thatTyler: a good turnout they had to increase what they had to upgrade their venue.Justin: I think I heard when we were so we I got to go, which was awesome. I went with my son, who's Ethan and and we I mean, we had a blast. He definitely had a huge, really, really good time when he was there. And I know me and you had talked about possibly going and it just didn't work out. But, ah, the I can't remember the number I want to say It was around 1313 100 people, is what we were told out was there, which is insane, especially given a huge percentage of those were not local. And when I was looking it up just out of curiosity, the closest besides Australia, the closest place that you could fly from was 12 hours away, which is just It just made me laugh because it's yeah, it literally is the furthest place away from everywhere else on Earth. Besides, you know, the people in Australia. But when we were in a cool when we were down there, I'll just quickly throw this in there when we were down there, actually made a reddit post because I was floored at the way that the people that were there were acting towards each other and the community sort of just in general. It really took me back to beta days of P o E. It just was Everybody was friendly. Everybody was hanging out, you know, like they're just was It was a really cool vibe there. And that's coming from, Uh, no, I'm not old, but an older guy. I mean, I think probably the average age I would have guessed was probably 27 28 there. But it was just cool. Like people were Tibor Super friendly. I mean, Ethan, he's 18. He had a blast, so it was a really cool experience. And then, uh, well, I mean, we should get to really the 22 major announcements, I guess maybe three. So we had 3.9, which was obviously this expansion in the whole change to the conquerors of the atlas. A cool, cool announcement that came out mobile announcement. Saving the big one for the mobile announcement was hilarious, because I remember sitting in the theater and watching people figure, you know, are they out of their minds, like, is this is this really is Are they lying? Everybody kind of thought, you know, until you saw how much you know they had the fall guy, which was hilarious. in their video and ah, and then Christmas, becauseTyler: that's his job to raid.Justin: Oh, it was so well done, though. It was so well done. I hope it was his idea, because I think that that it was one of the funniest titles for anybody in theTyler: whole in anyJustin: of the videos. TheTyler: mobile fall guy, Global fallJustin: guy. But it was a good view. And then Chris kind of talking afterwards about how it was hard to announce this last year made me crack up.Tyler: Oh, that he was so nervous. What? Cono Not sure what they were going to do.Justin: Yeah. And then, of course, the huge p o e. To which was, you know, the pre announced four point. Oh, but is actually gonna be path of exile, too. So I'm curious. What? What did you think? I mean, the ex con was so big, we can't cover obviously all of it. But now what? What was sort of yourTyler: overall? So for those listening, Justin, Nathan got to go. I, of course, did not get to, but we were messaging quite a lot throughout the entire conference, and it was really cool to get their perspective of to what was happening when what I could see. And so I was watching on Twitch and YouTube, and I got to see a lot of the interviews that Justin you think you can get to see while they were there because you could just can't see everything live. But they only had one channel that was streaming some of the interviews. And so I think obviously my favorite part of ex Sal Khan was the path of exile to announcement. But the best part of that was when I think it was Chris that came out after when Chris he was almost crying and he was having such a hard time controlling his emotions and his love for his game, his passion for the community that plays. He was so overwhelmed with people's excitement over what they were doing and their excitement to play even more and get more. I just can't imagine what it would be like. They were saying that they, for the longest time there was like four people. Only the people that were allowed in his office without knocking knew that 4.0 was actually gonna be p o. B two and it was only hey was saying that it was just nobody knew and for that to just get off their chests for them to be able to talk about everything. It was one of my other favorite moments along with Chris. Almost crying in a good way was when Jonathan maybe maybe this quick maybe was both. But I think it was Jonathan. He sat down for one of his, um, interviews, twitch interviews, and he was so calm. He was just so exciting, was so relaxed and he just said, Ask me anything. There's no more secrets And he was just so happy to just talk about anything. And I thought that was really cool because there's so much that's still going to come. And I mean, when you compare this to the Deauville for announcement, it just blows it out of the water. And the things that these are even comparable G was thinking about for even longer, It seems. It's just It was It was so exciting. I can't wait for another 19 ascendancy classes while we're on the subject.Justin: Yeah, it's gonna be cool. So I haven't I mean, you know this story and there's There's obviously a few of our friends that we know locally and that our family, friends and stuff no, this story and very few people outside of that would obviously know about this. Besides, there was a picture, but one of my one of my favorite sort of experiences when we were there because there were a lot, I mean, just that being in New Zealand on its own was amazing. That that country is beautiful. Yeah, but we were the day before the exile con event we had run into about, I don't know, we had met just because Ethan wanted to go out and do all of the meet ups and stuff, and I was following along with him. We met quite a few people on Dhe, some really, really cool people while we were out there that we hung around with and, you know, would go for lunch and go exploring with. And so we were. We were walking with three other guys to other guys. I don't remember. There were I think there were four or five of us, but we were walking down one of the main streets right by where X Sal Khan was gonna be taken taking place. And as we're walking down the street, this guy's walking towards us and he's wearing a path of exile shirt and right off the battles I cooled. My God, that's Chris And he's just by himself. He's just walking up. But the funniest part is he kind of looks at our group and he sees that. I think four of the people in our group are wearing path of XL shirts and at this, or jackets or something. And at this point path of exile like or a story? The ex con event hasn't started yet. There's not likeTyler: the next day or something. It'sJustin: gonna be the next day. There's not a ton of people down, like in that area yet that are, you know, path of exile people. And so he looks over at us and he smiles and he's like, Hey, guys! And so you know, will you stop? We're like, Oh, hey, how's it going? And he he pulls his phone out. He's like, Do you guys mind if I take a picture with you and in my head I'm thinking, What the hell? And it didn't seem like everybody else was grasping that it was him. And the thing is, he had shaved like he was freshly shaved, which is not his normal look at all. And so we're kind of like, Yeah, sure for sure. And so he takes his phone, puts it into the selfie and holds it up high and takes a picture of himself with, like the 45 of us standing behind him, smiling and he turns around. He laughs, and he's like he mentioned the fact that, you know, a bunch of us were wearing path of exile stuff and he hit. The comment was, I need to take a picture so I can show people that people give a shit about my stuff. And of course it made his life. And so then he kind of looks at us for a second awkwardly is like, Do you guys want a picture? And in my and I'm like I grabbed Ethan. I pushed him. I'm like, Yeah, of course we want a picture like get in there. And so we take this picture of the four of them standing with Chris Wilson just in the middle of the street, and he's like, Thanks, guys, have a great you know, conference and was so great seeing you. He takes off and even kind of looks a measly and he's familiar. LikeTyler: what? Who is that like, Oh, my God, that's Chris Wilson.Justin: And he freaks out. Like what? It was a lot of fun, and he was So he was so nice. He actually recognized us when he was when Ethan was in line to go and get his signature, he wouldn't. God is like map signed by a bunch of the developers and stuff. And so he took pictures with him again. But, yeah, it was It was fun. It was It was a lot of fun. It was really cool to watch. You know, stuff happened through him as well. So yeah, it was cool. But so your favorite announcement would have been purely toTyler: announcement there was. I mean, there was so much interesting stuff that we've talked about in other episodes and that we have lined up for the future episodes. But my favorite announcement was most definitely peewee to her entire. Do that.Justin: Yeah, it was very cool. It was a fun to sort of hear the reaction, which I'm sure people experienced it anywhere they were if they were listening and cared about path of excel, just the idea that they were coming up with two and that it was gonna coincide with one andTyler: yeah. Oh, just so I have three very specific things that excite me. Ah, lot of appeal. We too. But what is it that you are looking? I mean, we have I know we have, Ah, an episode coming up about this. But what is short, Quickly. What are a couple of things that really excite you about beauty too? Well,Justin: I feel like a lot of it'll safer. Probably a future episode. But I would say right off the top of my head, I just love the idea of a new story line. Okay, you know, just that whole new I've been playing path of exile for a long time. So and as of you and it's it's kind of cool to think that there's gonna be an entirely new storyline to follow. There is way too much for me to say what like my actual favorite stuff is, and we'll talk about that obviously coming up, But yeah, I think just the idea that there's a whole new storyline that's gonna be coming along isn't is very cool. What about you?Tyler: Slower paced game play? New gym system. 19 newest sentences. The fact that they're going to have what was a 38? It was 19. That's currently 19 right yet 631 Yet Okay, so 38 sentences that are going to be different and all have the ability to have multiple place 1000 builds within each. That's mind going.Justin: It'll be cool to see if there's 38 different ones. That's aTyler: lot. Oh my goodness, I e My brain's exploding thinking of voting.Justin: So yeah, so I mean, overall, though with the information that they gave on exile con and and sort of, their announcements back in 20 the beginning of 2019 for it, I would say it was a hit. Think they kind of nailed it? It really seemed to go Well, they seem to be really happy with how it went. And everyone that I ran into and spoke to their just loved it like every single person had a blast. Sweet. Oh, yeah. It was really good.Tyler: What about mobile? You gonna play?Justin: I have played it. You played it while I was there is true. It was It's cool. You know what? They've done a really good job with it. It's It's It's very simple to play very simple to just, you know, play with you with your thumbs. I'm not a mobile game person. I don't tend to play very many games on the mobile. If I was made me, I can't think of maybe flying. I tend to do work that when I'm flying. So I don't know, Maybe if I was maybe if I was just looking for something to do, it's simple enough to pick up and it will be free. So I'm sure I will install it. Uh, hopefully, hopefully by the time that they come out with it, it doesn't try to set your phone on fire because it runs very, very hot. They gave phones that you could test with, so I don't know what what models of these phones they were, but your hands were like, Yeah, it's like you took something out of the oven by the time you had played it for about 2025 minutes. Yeah. Would you playTyler: it mobile I'll download it if my phone can handle it. Um, but I'm I'm just it really impressed. Yeah, I'm excited for it. I'll give it a shot. I'll try and make time for you, But I'm I'm not gonna go out of my way because I play on call. It's a land PC as well, but I'm excited to try it. I hope my phone complaint, and if it does, I'll definitely forced myself. Thio, give us some time and I'm sure it'll be great. One of my favorite lines from Path of exile to, though, was when I think it was, Chris said. We don't care if it's successful, but if it's not, we don't care. If we make money like they don't even have micro transactions lined up for it, they might not. Even I don't think we're going to. It's just a game. It's just free and it's We wanted to be a really good mobile game if it makes money, fine. But they don't even see how it's going to make money. And if it doesn't okay like it's a mobile game for mobile people, that's all it is and I thought that was really cool because it solidifies. I remember the rage when Xbox came out with as the first console, the first non PC platform for Pee Wee, too, and a lot of PC land exploded in rage. And so PlayStation had a much friendlier release, of course. And so it's it's nice for PC players or just console only players to know that that they're not going to be overlooked because of a new focus of income. So if the false really cool,Justin: especially because there could have been that's right now like there is a there's a lot of money that can be made a mobile. So the fact that they're not putting the focus on it is really nice. Well, so yeah, I would say, I would say with their development notes from 2019 I'm really excited to see what the 2020 ones will come out with it in the next few days because they stayed true to damn near everythingTyler: they were spot on. Yeah, I think the only thing that it will be a little bit off and by no criticism at all is just their timeline for Pee Wee, too. I think it's 21. You were reading it. It was like some time in 2020. Maybe early. Maybe not Now they're thinking, but absolute earliest is the very end of 2020 Likely 2021. But peewee to always any time of year. I'm just too excited.Justin: Yeah, I feel like I heard it going all the way up to 3.12. So I'm you know, that gives at least three more leagues. Nine more months. Eso maybe the very, veryTyler: end. Well, we'll see. I don't really care. I'll release it over Christmas Tree. Oh, man,Justin: I hope they do so bad. That's the December release. Oh, merry Christmas. Be a means fixing only p o e one will continue to work on. That would be the best Christmas gift. Oh, we could talk about so much. Yeah, All right. So let's let's end this one off. I think this was this was cool that it was fun to look back. It's sort of what they did in 2019 and and now, and sort of give us an idea of what to look forward to for 2020. So we wanted to do a giveaway. I think it's gonna be fun. We're gonna make it super simple. There's gonna be two ways to enter in a post a reddit post on the show notes. All you got to do is post on that. Tell us what league was your favorite and why we don't care. Which was the your least favorite. Let's keep positive, that's what Red it's four positivity. That's right, you know, show some love as well, if you have you been enjoying the podcast or give us some constructive criticism. But all we need to see is a post showing us which league was your favorite and why, maybe what build you played. So that's one way to enter. Be on Reddit. Yeah, we'll post the link to it in the show notes for for this podcast, so you'll be able to find it anywhere. You're listening to this podcast. The link will be in the description or notes for it. Ah, and then the other way is to Retweet. We're gonna have a tweet coming out as soon as this episode goes live. If you're not following us, check us out on Twitter at forever exiled 82 we will have a tweet specifically for Episode six and Our Giveaway, So make sure you re tweet that if you've got Twitter. So those are the two ways to get entered and which playing for is you get to pick. We've got three options. It's either the bass Lisk core supporter Pack, the grand Sanctum Supporter Pack or the Eternal Damnation supporter pack. If it turns out you, for some odd reason, have all three or don't like them, then we'll just get you the equivalent value in points. Ah, to your account. So yeah, that's it. So we've got Red a Twitter win some goodies, and we're going to announce the winner Jury in Episode eight. So we have Episode seven still coming out at its regular time. This was sort of our bonus, one coming out for New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. So happy, Happy New Year's and, ah, we're gonna have Episode seven coming out of its regular scheduled thing on Sunday night. And with regards to supporter packs, if we can make it work, we'll make it work for whatever account you have. So if you're ah, you're an Xbox player, a PC player, a PlayStation player, we can work with support with G to make sure that those supporter packs are sent to you on your whatever platform you're using. That's right. So that's where it is. Read it. Tweet us sick. What you wanna win will announce the jury in Episode eight, which is two more episodes ofTyler: waste. I'm gonna win. It's permanent. Win.Justin: Yeah, you're kicked out anyway, guys, Thanks so much for listening to Episode six of Forever Exiled A Path of Exile podcast. This has been a really good time. And I hope you guys all have a super safe New Year's Eve and a good New Year's Day following. After that, I am one of your host, Justin a K Tagz.Tyler: I'm Tyler. Wrecker of Days. Oh, was I supposed to finish? Okay, well, it added at something in, um, hang on. Okay, then. I'm Tyler. Wrecker of days. Be safe this holiday week. No, no, no.Justin: What are you talking? You know what, everyone.Tyler: No, no, no. What? I was going to say somethingJustin: about your name again. I'm just gonna cut it anyway. But give me No, don't say that part again. Just give me half a second before you start speaking, but don't make it so.Tyler: No, no, no, no. This isJustin: actually now gonna be our troll. That'd beTyler: awesome. No, I wanted people to be safe on New Year's Eve. Get stupid. And for some reason, people seemed Forget that at New Year's Eve. But anyway, trying to anyone better would you, um, we appreciate all the listen. Some thanks for your time. Have a happy New Year's. Eve was safely safe. You want todo sure record and I know I'm going to say it, but you have all these notes that are distracting me about my filters. All I want to talk aboutJustin: is what is what happens when I throw on our troll on you that you have to doTyler: what you have just playing as I'm still talking about how I'm gonna do a note. True. What? What way would you say?Justin: Listen, I think the intro every damn time you have do you do do it? Yeah, because otherwise, but this is what our ingenuityTyler: I'll do the next time I'll do Episode sevenJustin: you can't recognize or six in You started with five because the intro change in Episode five you started with Rokko, remember? Thanks.Tyler: No, I don't. Yes, it's the widow. I don't remember. Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Uh, well, um, all right, Well, what can I say? Thank you very much for the listens, everybody. We greatly appreciate it. And again, if you have any encouragement or criticisms for us, please let us know on Twitter or on Reddit after one of our posts and we'll see you on episode seven.Justin: Make sure to check out the show notes below. If you've got any questions or concerns, nobody has concerned. I don't care if they have concerns. Heather clarified. Give make sure to check outTyler: Larkin and put this all owed on the same day that you were ready. I was ready. You weren't ready.Justin: I'm not gonna cut any of this is gonna be the longest. Whatever. You just you build like a needy and I'm previously on yourself. I forgot I was loved. Make sure to check out the show notes. For more information about today's episode, you confined us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82Don't forget to find us at www.foreverexiled.com and @ForeverExiled82 on Twitter

We finally made it to the Atlas! Look out white maps, here we come!Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Hey there. Welcome to Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host, Justin A K Tags.Tyler: And I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days. Well, we made it Number five. Yeah. Good. Good. We're doing the best of episodes, Ari.Justin: Yeah, where we're at, like, take 41. RoughlyTyler: way. Our we've been We've been giggling trying to start this podcast for, like, the last hour.Justin: You know, actually, you saying that makes me want to just quickly jumped the gun a little bit because I noticed, if you're one of your notes was just how incredible your giggle is.Tyler: So I obviously listen to the podcast. Once you've finished editing them, Justin does everything. By the way, I just sit here and giggle and make fun of him. But after he's edited and what we get to listen to it, I like to listen to it to see what it, of course, sounds, likes weak and make it better make the next episode better and better and constructive criticism I have noticed now that I really ate my giggle. I sound so lame. Gable. It sounds totally fine in my head. I feel like a manly man when I giggle in my head. But my goodness, when I giggle when I hear from the outside, it's brutal.Justin: So that just shows how impressive it is that for four episodes I've been editing your giggle just to increase the highs. I'm just kidding. I should think this is going to be, like, really high.Tyler: No, this episode I'm gonna Ha, ha.Justin: That is hilarious. Yes, I am. Anyway, that made me think of it. You said giggle. It's your fault. Uh, all right, So tell me anyway, tell me about your build. You've been doing it. I mean, do refresher on your building where you're at right now. Let's let's hear it.Tyler: All right. Um, I finally had some time to gets maps, which was nice. I finished last few acts quite quickly. I like those last acts because there's very few side quest you need to do for extra passive points and finally got endgame. Tried to do it with my leveling gear, which wasn't special. It's not leveling gears, just whatever dropped. So I was pretty bad on resist. Tried to do. I know 5 to 10 maps with it, and, uh, just before the podcast started. I finally capped my resists, but damage is good and survivability would be good. I'm really liking it. I don't know what people are complaining about a lot of fun. Single target damage isn't great, but the game's a lot harder to so anyway,Justin: where you build when you say people complaining, Are you referring to just in general or specifically to your build?Tyler: Sorry specifically for that guide? I'm referring to the which building I do, and I'm doing my sion build. It's Ah, deadeye and inquisitor. It's elemental hit with attached to What's it called? It's still the list of support the ballistic totem support, Lester told him, Supports really weak. You basically need four totems, even though it only gives you three. You have to go find 1/4 told him just to make it worthwhile. But I'm quite liking it. And because you're constantly moving and laying the totems with elemental hit and with crit and with all the extra ailments that air happening freezing and shocking, it's I I really like it so far. I mean, I have a four, a blue four link, and, uh, I've been fine, so I'm excited to get a a nice five link.Justin: Your survivability, though, seems to be at least reasonable. So far, you're reallyTyler: very easy. It was really easy while levelling, of course, ramps up a bit once you get into the atlas. But, um, I had 19% fire resist, and I think 55 or 60 Ah, lightning resist. And there's a lot more chaos damage and oh, my goodness. I redid the graveyard. I did the new graveyard boss fight, and that's cool. I don't know if that was in our notes somewhere, so I don't want to jump ahead.Justin: I don't think I've actually done graveyard yet.Tyler: Oh, the chaos. I just love how viable chaos is. I feel like it's syndicate, but without needing the crazy nurse that syndicate needed for a month straight, it's There's so much more chaos, damage, um, the new I don't really want to spoil it, but for the podcast tried Well, for you, the graveyard boss battle that used to just be you'd go into that crypt, right? And then to be that I mean, it's changed a couple of times now. I think it's a change it again and Now it's kind of like an open crypt area where you fight one of the skeleton bosses that existed in campaign. But then, once you beat that one whole wave of enemies come. And then a second skeleton boss comes because I think you can do that. Different ones, Yes, and I love it. There's shocking to let crazy. They're throwing chaos, damage at you from from range. I really liked it and especially because it's what. But it dropped for me. I think it was my fifth map. I don't know if it's Tier 12 or three. I forget, but it was when you're not really set with your resists. That's a punishing boss battle, and I really liked it. But back to the build, I just finished capping my resists and survivability was pretty easy before, so it's gonna be a lot better now.Justin: Nice and damage with elemental hit and ballisticTyler: clearing is no problem. Single target damage requires some patients, Um, but not only for the impatient, I guess you could say, um, I don't find that for me. I'm used to a slower paced game, and I don't find it tedious by any means. umJustin: Well, you actually, because under a single target apartment, do you think you'll do anything to change single target? Like, do you have any plans for?Tyler: Yeah, right now I'm using a blue Oh, right. Four link. Yeah. I'm using a blue for link right now. So it all it does, it's giving me 7 18% attack speed and 24% elemental damage. So I knew the second I even even if I had a white five link or a nice yellow four link, I don't think it would be a problem at all.Justin: Nice. Yes. So, me, I am doing spectral throw, still sticking with it, and, uh, I'm into maps. I've gotten past all of the, you know, the levelling, all that good stuff. Ah, it's been decent. It's solar cell. Found for me is a whole new breed of playing this game. I'm just so used to, ah, hit endgame by some of the gear that I want to at least make the maps a little easier to clear. Make sure I've got ah, you know, the right resists. But the build that I'm just playing around with is working. Fine. Now that I've got my gem slots set up. I'm still also only running off of a four link chest, so that'll make a big difference once I can do that. And I'm swapping GMP for ah, slower projectile still, which I probably I probably will do through the whole thing anyway. So it's it's been not bad. It's a little a little slow, uh, had huge hiccups as I was leveling and I'm realizing I think I made that. We made the comment that we were chatting that weapons hold. My gosh, Did they ever make such a big difference? Like,Tyler: Oh, and I love it. I love it.Justin: Yeah, it's It's nice. It's just it's I feel different. It's weird that that's different. I mean, you've always needed to upgrade weapons, obviously toe to scale your damage, but I don't know if it's just spectral throw. I don't know if it's if there was a specific change that's made that different, but I have found that without that, that constant upgrade to weapons which, by the way, upgrading Klaus Sucks is brutal. To find Klaus that have reasonable roles, especially cousin went straight physical, it's really hard to find replacement clause Once I've got something that's rolled plus physical and plus percentage physical, I can't It's really, really hard to find something that will improve that.Tyler: Catch him Well, I mean, I know your pain. I'm still using my blue four links. So, um, but it's I just love. I think it has everything to do with just the changes that they made to defense in the how bosses they're scale. All the extra armor and chaos and elemental resists. And for everyone, I just I just love that update where they made them harder to kill, but they don't hit harder. I mean, some of the boss mechanics had changed dramatically, which makes them a lot harder to, But it just makes weapons that much more important. And I love it because for melee, they're much more dependent on weapons than any other type of, um, build. I would say, like if you're doing spells, you can get away with not needing a fantastic wander staff, right? Or don't whatever also you're using. But when you're doing spells, you don't need something epic. It's just great to have opinions. You don't need anything, but of course, it's just mid. Maxine if you want to get a convicting one with sweet rolls Malays desperate for a good melee weapon. And I love that right after they have a melee league, they come out, they buff stuff to make melee weapons Much more important, I think it's really cool. I love how they did it.Justin: It is, Yeah, I think if I had maybe thought a little differently into ah, maybe it may be a different skill, or I don't know if I could have incorporated different types of weapons, but I just I feel like for a solo cell found I made it harder than I needed to because I've just I've struggled to roll clause that are good to use,Tyler: are you? Claw OnlyJustin: while I'm spect into a lot of the claw nodes just for the the engine for the crit. ButTyler: that's that's one of those things than that, I guess you kind of cornered yourself into then.Justin: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I'm now, uh, into maps. I've gotten it. Did the atlas. I mean, maze will just jump a little bit too. That is kind of cool. I've again, I'm not super far into it of ah, unlocked out Zana. So she's back. I've had these weird encounters with the the new the new bosses, like have just spawned And I can remember the name of the one that I've seen, but he kind of just spawned in, yelled at me and then took off and it just got the notification to keep following him. And I'mTyler: like, Yeah, I had that and I couldn't see what was happening. The map was still busy and I heard some dialogue. I didn't really know what it was, and yeah, that's to read it at the same time.Justin: So I'm I've noticed that as I've done more maps in that quadrant, um, he's popped up a few times. I haven't gotten much further into how that whole system works, but what I will say is, on top of the hole, okay? Trying to figure out weapons as I'm going along it further to what you were talking about with your build. My God resists so resist to me has always they've always been king. You get to endgame, you get resists. You just have to. I have never felt Maur than this league like yes, you Absolutely have to capture resists. It is especially getting into these these new bosses. Yeah, I don't know if he just happens to be lightning based or why everything is lightning. But after he popped up the bosses, or just like random rare Tze and just mobs would all of a sudden spawned with additional lightning damage, they would put these things on the ground. They were shooting. It was killing me so quickly and I think was in 40 48% or so, which normally obviously that's not great. But normally in a tear to map, I wouldn't be Oh, you know, I really need to be in 75. I just be working to get gear. And as I captured that cap it, I had no choice but to actually start adjusting my gear and what it made a huge difference, which I'm not had a lead like that before. And I started thinking because the first it pissed me off first thing I was like Oh my God, so tired of dying. And then, as I started to, you know, just the gear and especially with SSF, it makes it a little bit harder. But the the ability to now have to actually plan around capping my resists walk, maintaining life and damage. It's actually made it kind of fun. Yeah, it really has.Tyler: Yeah, I'm really a one thing. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. And one thing that I think I already mentioned it. But just in case I didn't turn now, only thought it. It used to be that you could just ignore chaos. Resist for so many of your bills until syndicate came along, you could ignore your your chaos resistant. You could just do your three elements. Now I feel with all the different roles they've done, they've added a lot of chaos, damage to some big, big boss battles and a lot of the metamorphose stuff. Specifically, it's almost like you can't get away. You It's always gonna have some sort of chaos. A we it's really made it so that you need all four. Captain. Oh, I used to just do the three. I'm sure many died. Many did. But I'm really finding the value and crafting some of those chaos rules just to at least get to the baseline of 0%. I think I saw this in a lot of chaos. Damage?Justin: Yeah, I have to. I don't know if I found it as, um it's definitely beneficial. I'm not at minus 60. I think I'm at 35 or something. So it's not. It's not zero, but it's definitely better than nothing but it to me. He was not as bad as the I don't know Lightning. I couldn't believe the difference from 48 to 75 obviously that's always gonna be a huge difference. It's just never been a huge difference. A tear to Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I've always felt like Okay, I'm getting into, like, six. You're seven. You know, it's time to actually start really paying attention to everything. Yeah, this is like it's cool. It's really cool, because that one of the complaints I've had in the past is just end Game now had become stale, so I think it's aTyler: sexy independence all the way through. Maybe we won't think that in the fifth league of this end game, butJustin: yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how the endgame all works yet, so it's kind of hard to say, but I am enjoying The metamorphose stuff is sometimes enjoyable. I've started to get some of the boss ones the ones that you actually collect. I haven't Not enough to actually do much with them. Ah, some of them have been reasonable. But even still, some of them are very, very difficult, Which is good. I don't mind. I don't mind not being able to kill a boss like a meta morph boss. Yet if I made it too strong and I'm like, Oh, God, this I just can't do it. Yeah, it sucks for me. I gotta learn to the next one.Tyler: I've heard a lot of people. Well, whether it's within my guides air on Reddit complained that it's too difficult And then there's some people of the mentality that a lake just turn. Just turn the difficulty down like you're not forced to do the hardest one. And if your build can't do it, don't do it on. And then there's other people that think. I've heard the complaints that they should be able to do the hardest ones, and I don't like that I like the you know, it should be terrifying to do the hardest. Have you got all the body parts in the map? It should be terrifying. You should expect it to be a long time or you should I don't know. You know what I mean? Totally beat Easy for you shouldn't expect to do it with mediocre everything.Justin: Yeah, I totally agree to me. It goes back to bay two days and like the early release days where there were some builds just could not do it, you just couldn't. And it wasn't It wasn't something broken in the game. It was something you did just didn't work. And you either adjusted or I mean, then it was start over. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've been I've been relatively pleased so far. I mean, I'm pretty early into the tears of the palace, but I found the difficulty to be decent. Uh, I mean, for me, for path of Exile, it's rewarding enough. Antemortem is adding the ability to get a lot of cool stuff that you couldn't get in other ways before you had to do specific league things to do it. So that's kind of fun.Tyler: Yeah, it is. It's It's really cool. I think they've done a very good job. I know that there's glitches for people that are a lot farther into endgame. Unlike us, we're still in our white maps. But, um, I think in terms of stability, this was really, really good. I just, um I forget where this isn't a list. So cut me off. If I'm too far ahead of myself. I just really wish that what they did was introduce this next league. But I love the new endgame, and I'm really excited about it. But to introduce a brand new endgame and then go on a skeleton crew for Christmas, it doesn't make sense to me.Justin: Yeah, but I think that's also for you. Somewhat related to other things. Not just specifically the league. The big leaguesTyler: challenges, but they're they're running into they. Some of the stuff that I'm watching this one is a little bit farther down, but the guy that I watch relax r o l a X on mixer. His issues are very different than mine. I'm waiting for cause I play standard. I'm waiting for the map tab to get fixed, but that's not gonna happen till after Christmas, because they have one person that works on the map tapping there on vacation. So but roll axes. His issue is he's getting to engage with every single character that he makes. He's already on. His fourth character is crushing Endgame, and his issue is that there's a glitch with Final Boss. And I've seen lots of stuff in the patch notes about the final Boss is and how they're glitches and they're not dropping this or they're not. You know, this, that another thing and he can'tJustin: What's the alternative? I mean, you're suggesting that they push of a game changing league to a ah, further release so that they don't have it come over Christmas,Tyler: right? I don't think any time you're gonna have a skeleton crew for two weeks, even if it's just one week, I really especially because it's going to be what, a three week point of the league right? Like this came out December 9. I think it was to have Christmas two and 1/2 3 weeks later, after you've completely revamped the entire endgame, I don't know.Justin: Yeah, I don't know what to me. It's hard, though, because if they come up with a league that barely has any changes just because they're gonna have a skeleton crew. That league ends up being garbage. It's people. People may not play it. I mean, the thing is, if they go, if they go skeleton crew, Firth, whatever it is, 2 to 3. I don't even think it's three weeks, two weeks, three weeks. Someone like that. Two weeks to, um, that's better to me than three months of, Ah garbage league.Tyler: Well, but imagine Metamor for the old Atlas. To me,Justin: that's fantastic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't knowTyler: how everything Woods with how it all works, right, Like, it's been a long time since I've worked in the video game industry, and when I did, I wasn't at the top of the food chain making the decisions with all the decisions that the higher ups need to make. But it's just for me. It's every Christmas. I really don't get to play until the new year, when the league comes out and then it's gonna be the Christmas League, as I call it as a standard player. I don't get to play until January, so it kind of sucks. ButJustin: I don't see the alternative to that, though, and I think that I mean, I I can see where you're talking about in the fact that it's ah ah, huge game changing league and it comes out right before they. I don't know how often else in the year they even have skeleton crews. I imagine it's not very often, but ah, I would rather I would rather it affect the I mean, people may really, really be angry about the fact that I say it or that they may disagree with me in some sense. But it's affecting the people who have a lot of time and have power rushed to end game, which is awesome, like That's cool that they have done it. But I imagine that that portion of the player base is small compared to the players who are still working their way up through be Atlas and you're never going to make it perfect. Old big release almost ever has been Yeah, so there's going to be something that goes wrong to me. At least there's nothing game breaking and even the ones I've read night for league players and but I don't care about standard, but I mean, even on center,Tyler: You're in the minority there.Justin: No, I'm definitely. I definitely know for sure. Not on that. Most of them. I might be in the minority that when I'm definitely not. But even your issue, it's still very specific, too. A mechanic not working. Not all mechanics not working now. Granted, it's a pretty I read that they, like, literally turned it off, right, Like they just turned off the convert button. I thought I heard. Yeah, yeah,Tyler: yeah, they did. It turned off, and it's true. I could play it. I could spend 15 bucks and get a new map stash tab.Justin: No, I don't think you should. And I agree, like frustration that comes from that. But I don't think you'll ever have a league release that's going to be perfect off the bat, even 2 to 3 weeks, and hopefully it's as close as possible. But I read the complaints. I've read the comments that they've made. They're not. It works. There's just some stuff. That's your rape. It's kind of frustrating for such is, but it's not broken. I would rather like I said, I would rather have maybe 2 to 3 weeks of Okay, this is stupid. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and then they're coming back, and they're gonna fix it. Uh, and they still have staff working. It's not like a game. Breaking bugs is just going to go on because they want to enjoy Christmas. God forbid. But yet, uh, if if that means that, okay, I gotta wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to fix something that is really just irritating me versus having to deal with three months of a league that I found boring because they wanted to make sure not to get people upset. I feel like that's maybe worse. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't mind it, but I'm not there, so it's not affecting me.Tyler: Yeah, way need to. I need to be more familiar with the endgame bugs that are happening to. But you've almost converted me almost. You may have let them have Christmas tie. Just let them have Christmas am. I am. But have Christmas with the old atlas, all right? Just bored again. So remember last episode we're talking about holy and showing up. I was all mystified. I thought it was fantastic that when you click on a crafting recipe, yeah, she just appears Yes, you know, she'd smoke bombs like a ninja turtle on, comes in and says her little piece and then goes away. I thought that was a really cool little thing. Um, so I hear you've been a little disappointed with the frequency of it. Now,Justin: is it just our last time that we talked about with that when this you first brought this up? Yeah, I think it was just last episode. Yes, So it was. It must have been, cause that's when I finally got some free time to play and every freaking recipe I would zoom in my damn camera, click it. And there were times I think I was even streaming at one point so you could watch, and I clicked it, and I I message you and said you're you're freaking liar. She didn't jump up and you said, Oh, it's because you were standing right in front of it. I was like, Oh, okay, maybe it wasTyler: always your fault.Justin: Now I will just say I was about to go into it. I was in a trial when I got that one. So I went to the next one and it actually kind of irritated me a little bit because the next one I found was within just the regular story of the game. So I moved off to the side, clicked it, and sure enough, she popped up. I was like, God damn it, Tyler was right. Yeah, And she did, like, smokes in. And she says, Ah, I think she said the same line every time. Something about this is very interesting. And then she smoke clouds out. But it's only the more I did it, the more I was watching it. She she doesn't so nothing related to a lab. Nothing related to trials will ever show up. Nothing related to delve will ever show up. And once you beat the game, that's it. She's done. She doesn't show up in maps. WhyTyler: do itjust campaign? I was really surprised. That's dumb. Yeah, whyJustin: I don't understand is that there's no Maybe somebody knows some weirdo lower to the game that somehow stopped actin that she couldn't help you with the recipesTyler: anymore. Well, maybe maybe they'll add it more if it's a new thing that we just have If it's new right and we didn't miss it before, maybe it's just they're adding it in and then they'll be able to add it to more. As, uh, maybe you just would have added, you know, to my previous complaint about having a new atlas. Maybe it just would've added more possible glitches when they were going on. No, no. HowJustin: hard could it have been? Toe added toe labs to delve, too. Maps everywhere.Tyler: Every little thing you add. Construe something elseJustin: does nothing. She's she literally does. She is. She's not even an actual like thing that interferes with you. You can walk right through her. She does nothing. It's like she's not there. It's dumb. Just put it into all of them. I irritated me more so than anything that you told me about it, because I remember it took me. It took me so much longer to get through some of the acts because I would run into them and be like, Okay, maybe, Maybe if I stand a little bit over here. No. Yeah. She doesn't show up in those places through.Tyler: Well, I hate you more than you hate me for Helena, Because you're playing solo Cell found this time for the first time in forever. And you couldn't give me the ridiculous Val City way point.Justin: You know it was you this times you I found it almost right away.Tyler: Oh, I don't even want to hear your solo. No. Found luck with a locked. Why did he lock? Hold your hand and show, YouJustin: know, but But something pointed the way I could tell. I could sense it. It was those fireflies they were leading.Tyler: Yeah, fireflies that don't stack in your inventory. Um,Justin: crabby old man. Yeah, I found I found that when I found thanks for not beingTyler: able to give you $2 city waypoint. I appreciate it.Justin: You have to work for things. That's how you enjoy the gameTyler: Can. The Bell City is really enjoyable.Justin: It's annoying because it not only is it probably one of the most frustrating spots to find it for, but then also, the next level that you load into is the freaking longest set of map or area. I think in the whole game that hope Rose is to get down to the spider. Oh, my God, It's exhausting. it's worse than Vow. Pyramid Way Worse, I don't know why. Maybe it's God's going down instead of up.Tyler: Well, it's twice as long. Yeah, well, Pyramid, I think it's three levels and then you're actually at the top. Whereas when you're going down to the spider, it's three levels and then you're just another second section, and then it's another three levels. If I'm correct, it's I don't mind that part, though. That one's relatively easy to navigate. And there's not a lot of wrong turns, not a fan. I don't mind the maps that get me, Um, but that's just because of my concussion. Symptoms and stuff are the maps with trees and the trees that go in front of the screen. Um, what would be one deal? I don't know howJustin: Jungle is brutal. I actually noticed that just today I was thinking to myself, Okay, we're talking about that whole technology of the stuff is cutting. You go through jungle. The trees do not fade it all, they say, right up in your face through the hole. I was like, Why would they not have these ones fade out? I don't know if it's just because it's older, and maybe it's more difficult for them to do that. But it is really weird to me that jungle, the jungle map Jungle Valley. The maps do not fade or sorry, the trees don't fade. Yeah, it's kind of weird.Tyler: Yeah. And you, old atlas. I would never, ever shaped the ones that had those tall trees that will go in front of the camera. It was just too too nauseated for me.Justin: Would it change it if if it had that effect, where they they weren't really? I mean, that kind of see through,Tyler: um Well, there's that. What was it? Is it Lava lake map that had, um I don't know if they're the same. A CZ they used to be. But the lab a lake when they had caught Eva was a tear 14 or 15 last week. That had some trees. Cem, Cem. Nice apple trees. ErJustin: over there. Just little ones rightTyler: there. Well, they were. They were big, They didn't go all the way up across the screen, and it would have that technology where it would fade so you could see yourself on the other side. That still gets me a little bit, but it's nowhere near as bad as something that's crossing my eyes really fast. Like car driving through and, you know, shaded woods Interest. Bang, bang, bang. Just shade hitting. You left, right and center.Justin: Yeah, it's funny. I just I literally just today was doing Jungle Valley and thought of that. Come on. And then I did. I think it was right after we finished Episode four. Maybe that next day I finally got to play, and I'm I'm running through an area goingTyler: the hell areJustin: these things popping up? My screen is unlike running through killing stuff. And yeah, that's the monster parts picking up. Yeah. Is that I'm sure people listening to it Or like what a whiny baby like it's alreadyTyler: faced. I'm sorry. Fix happen hour later, but what do you think of it?Justin: Uh, I I do like it. Obviously, I actually this is just me being a turd. I'm not a big fan of the way it shows up, because it and maybe we'll just take a bit of getting used to playing more to get used to it. But it throws me off for some reason, a little bit And maybe it's just cause I'm not playing a very fast build. I'm not moving super quickly through the map or through the zone. There's something about the way it pops up that just throws me off from looking at what the drops are to the interest at part going up. But I I love it. I absolutely love the fact that I don't care what it does. I don't care what flash my whole screen. The fact that it I don't have to be. Oh, I don't have to go and pick them all up is so much better. Yeah. You like it?Tyler: I like the animation. Yeah, I like it. I don't get distracted with it. I don't get it mixed up with other possible drops. I really like it. And the thing that I I don't know if this was how it used to be, because you and I have progressed slowly, but whether it was added new or not, I love that when you're about to go through a portal or a door. Um, what's his name shows up.Justin: Oh, yeah, kind of warns you.Tyler: Yeah, but I like that, you know, because I'm going to go through and I'm gonna clear the map. How I normally cleared I don't go out of my way for any lead content if it's going to be, You know, if if there's two monsters left and I'm missing one body part, I'm not going for it. So it's nice when I'm vote to go into this or I'm gonna portal. Oh, that he shows up. He's like a Okay, let's use up your pieces. Yeah, I like it. I think it was a very it was a gamer's choice, You know what I mean? Whoever came up with that idea, it was it was the gamer in them that came up with that. That was really convenient.Justin: Yeah, I think it is. Good, cause I would probably forget Maur often than not if if he didn't do that, and I'd probably load the next map and be like, damn it, I forgot to use up those parts. So that's at least good. Now, did you Did you get Ah, Did you get your Christmas gift from G, which I feel like you should take away from you? I feel like people who are complaining about them going to skeleton staff don't deserveTyler: a gift. I don't maybe. Oh, everything. Oh, they deserve a wicked Christmas. Well, old Atlas.Justin: So what you're saying, though, is the people that stay working what I'm saying? That'sTyler: qu'est er of words. No. Um, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.Justin: Did you get you get from them there? It was one of the boxes. Right.Tyler: Okay, well, you got I do not. What? But it was white.Justin: So I on on that same topic, because I I did get, um, a gift. I got the white, uh, missed, I think for the for your base, The white It's like, OK, but I also I decided I was going to do the grand sanctum pack because I really like the wings. And I like the outfit. That was the thing is the $60 pack. I'm still I'm still boycotting. Currently, there their core packs. I just Maybe I might really I might buy this the snake one just because it's, you know, it's it is a little bit unique, but I just can't I I was like, Well, I don't see myself going this time for there's no shirt. So why spend 240 bucks? But ah, it So I bought the couple of the boxes. I have 55 versions of God. What is it? The blink. Ah, it's one of the skills that they went there. No, no, no, it's Ah, it's not whirling blades. It's something Blade. What is it called, anyway? It's I have five of them. I hate that. That's the one thing that drives me crazy. You know, all I want is a damn portal. I think I've opened maybe 20 boxes, so not like a ton, but 25% of them have been the same thing killing me, G.Tyler: But I got to say, normally I'm I'm portals, is what it kind of revolves around for me. You know, you need to have a nice portal that matches the set. And because it's so much bigger and brighter, that color stands out to the others that you can get away with footprints that don't aren't the exact shade of white or green that you're looking for to match your set. You know what I mean? Because it's much farther away and it phase and it's busy, but portal portals really stand out there there the whole time. You stand next time for a while. The grand sanctum support pack is so nice that I'm gonna get it, even though I don't like at a normal that could match it.Justin: Well, give me a portal that you have because there's portals that mattersTyler: and that really, I don't think so. Well, sometimes it's also it's not just the color. It's also the action that the portal does, or the colors and how it goes. You know what I mean? AndJustin: wings air really cool with it, though.Tyler: I love it. I love it. I'm, uh I'll be getting it as soon as we're done.Justin: I'm actually using some of the white armor that I got from the boxes with the grand sanctum, but, uh, yeah, I I don't remember. I do have two of the white floaty mists. Uh, you can put in your base. I also I don't think you've seen it yet, but I have I did get that new base, butTyler: so did you.Justin: Yeah, the completely I did it mostly because I knew it would drive Ethan crazy. And so I loaded it up. I put it in there with absolutely nothing. And I just spaced the characters out, and I When he walked by my office, I was like, Look, check out how awesome this is. And he was upset right away. And I told him it's going to stay like that All league. I'm not gonna put anything down. If anything, I might put like a fire pit for some random reason. Like one fire pit.Tyler: Well, it's cold in the stars. Yep. It's gonna look awesome. So you can sit cross leggedJustin: and put all of my petsTyler: so they can float around. And don't forget you're missed.Justin: Oh, yeah. I should put down that white mist. I'm gonna put it in a corner just so that when people visit, I'd be like, Hey, did you see there's twoTyler: also you. I'll even give you a discount. But you've got to go in the mist.Justin: There's two of them up there, but I love that they give those little boxes. I think it's fun.Tyler: Yeah, they're very generous company. And every time I realized that we've complained about something in the game that I don't like or you don't like, I feel really bad. I don'tJustin: feel bad, and I think it's good. It's I don't think we're being fixed. It's no, I get it. ITyler: get. It's constructive. But I still when I really when I remember that it's free and everything's free. I feel like a prick.Justin: Well, I mean, you're a prick, but it doesn't mean that they're doingTyler: anything wrong. I'm not the one that went solo. Cell found. You're a prick.Justin: Yeah, but you also said that they don't deserve a merry Christmas.Tyler: No, I said enjoy your merry Christmas with the old Atlas.Justin: I think I think it isTyler: you not being able to give me the Val City waypoint is way worse than anything anyone else has ever done toJustin: me. I think that merry Christmas box makes up for the bugs. So two people complaining about the bugs. At least you got a box,Tyler: right? And he didn't play peewee a Christmas. You're not a real fan. Anyway. It's true, right, Britta?Justin: At least to log in. Get your freaking box.Tyler: You did have to be in game to get it. Well, you couldn't click on it on the website.Justin: Yeah, but you didn't have to be on that day.Tyler: I remember.Justin: I got mine today, I think because I didn't go on you saidTyler: you were on yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I was able to finish my just for the box. No, no, I was able to finish an actor to yesterday. I think it was yesterday that I got two maps. Who? I think the boxes logging in until January 6.Justin: Oh, yes. I didn't think it was just the single day that that would be a jerk. Move. Geez, like,Tyler: Well, we're a little Bell City. Wait points a jerk. MoveJustin: How? We're at home enjoying our Christmas. If you don't log into the video game on that day, you don't get it. Uh,Tyler: enjoy your family, Bond.Justin: Yeah, I don't think anything we've said is mean spirited. And yeah, I think we're fair. We're now We're nice people in general, right?Tyler: Well, one of us, one of me. That's true. Yeah.Justin: So that's why did I look through the post that they made because they had put up a post about like, uh, some of the known issues that they were going to deal with, But I didTyler: nothing in there really,Justin: like, stood out to me like Oh my gosh, I can't play this. I will be honest. There is one that says the convert maps button in the map stash tab has been temporarily disabled as there were problems converting to the new layout. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I laughed so hard when I read that. Why fly? What? You've just popped into my head instantly. I don't know why you just made me laugh. I was like, Oh, but they're listening. Listen,Tyler: every time the game updates whether waiting for you and I hate how long steam takes to frickin update a 30 makeup date. But anyway, when I'm I mean, it gives me 10 hours. Thank you, Steam for being able to check the patch notes every time I'm just control f that I see my console game updating him like, Oh, well, maybe because they group their patches together for Consul cause they don't promote us frequently. I don't know how it works in the console back end, but that's really do. And so then I'm like, Oh, sweet, Maybe maybe a new one came out for PC today, and then I control control F on the patch notes for Xbox. You mad? I'm excited. It'll happenJustin: yet to me. When I read through this stuff there was, I think only one that maybe kind of popped out to me is like, Okay, this is actually something they need to work on. And it was releasing legion generals during legion encounters can cause a client crash. I think something that can actually crashed the game, that that's a bit of a problem. And that mostly just cause we both dealt with leagues where I mean you, especially where that was an issue. So I can I can, you know, I can see that a little bit. But when I look at their posts that they put out and this is days before Christmas, I think this one popped up. I don't rember who posted it. Uh, it still impresses me like they're legitimately looking into stuff. They know stuff there, and they're gonna fix it. And the stuff that I was reading was not game breaking. Besides, the fact that the client could crash that that to me is a bit of a big deal. I had an issue with one of the valves side areas. Who cares? It was not a big deal. It took into when I when I exited, it didn't bring me back. So where I had entered into the map, I actually thought it was cool. Yeah, I don't know. The rest of the stuff wasTyler: even something like Metamor. Fosse's not being able to be frozen were used to Boss is not be able to be frozen. It was just chill, right, Right. So I, you know, even with something that was frozen dependent, you're getting a very good chill on them, especially because it was buff. So that's not even a big problem either.Justin: Nothing stood out to me where on and again, that could have been because there have been stuff fixed that were more game breaking that I just never encounter because I hadn't gotten up there. But I didn't really stand out to Mia's thes terrible things.Tyler: Yeah, I can see the There's a There's an issue where the awakened cast on Krit um, is creating cooled elms where when there shouldn't be any, I could see that being a big issue for builds. But at the same time, you don't need the awakened jewel to have a successful build. SoJustin: you're already having a problem with an awakened version of a skill? Boo hoo. I don't feel bad for you. Even a tiny bit. A tiny bit. Put the cast on. CreatedTyler: for not to drop.Justin: Sure, I'm thrilled. If it didn't work on the lake first week of a league lunch, I wouldn't be like you wreckedTyler: my bill. No, you haven't. Go put the normalJustin: one in the one you used all the way up until you found that one. Yeah. Yeah, I saw. I don'tTyler: know if anybody's actually complaining about it, but we did see it on the bug report,Justin: right? I imagine it's probably because somebody complained about it. Ah, but yeah, I just It made me laugh. Yeah, there were. There were some really fun, uh, things that I saw in in red It actually in the last couple of days that made me laugh or not laugh with smile there. Only because I get so jealous I still haven't seen exults this league. Nothing cool has dropped yet besides garbage unique ce which is still fine. But the critic I that posted he did ah ah Contains a valuable gym. He got to You got enlightened and empower both level force. They dropped as a light on level four. Empower little for. And there was other stuff too, but oh, my gosh. I was like, What? The hacky. There was a screenshot of it, and I'm thinking in solar cell found I would leave in a heartbeat. I like buying stuff through a felon. I'm getting stuff, but it was crazy. And then, uh Okay, So there. Did you see? I don't know how often you check credit, but there was a helmet that somebody posted that was crafted. This was It was it was with that the ah, the awaken, her orb. So where you combined the two things? Now I feel like this is a lot because this helmet just Oh, man. Perfect. It's a meat. Well, yeah, it used to be. I mean, it sucks now because zombies are terrible, but Okay, I'm just gonna read through it.Tyler: I don't think they're terrible, ByJustin: the way, we're talking about a bone helmet. Yeah, Minion steal. 20%. Increased is the, uh,Tyler: got Ah. So a max. ImplicitJustin: max. Implicit of minions deal. 20% crease damage plus three toe level of soccer Did Minion Gems socket of gems. Air supported by level 18 million. Life soccer. The gems air supported by level, 18 million damage. Now, if it stopped here, you've already done really, really well. Like, really, really? Well, like last season. Last league. Oh, my God. You could have bought 20 years. It everybody wanted every freaking minion thing. Now, yeah, we're gonna continue on. Minions have 19% increase Max life minions deal 20%. Increased damage, 5% reduced manner. Reserved glow. And he had the intent on it for flesh offering. Granting an additional 21% increase. Attack speed for flesh. And then he had craft. That was insane. Lightning resist.Tyler: But nuts it is. Of course, it's incubating something just to make it even more exciting.Justin: I it just seemed fake when I read it. Yeah, I was like, Oh, my God. I would like last league. I would have liked just two of those options to force their six good things on there.Tyler: I can't tell you how much currency I've spent on console trying to get a plus three to the level of socket 1,000,000 Jim's. I still don't have it. I am trying everything. The craft. I'm going crazy. I make I I can't do it. I can't do it. And then here's this year's this.Justin: Yeah, it's just I don't know what he was crafting. Four. I did Rhea little bit about the threat, and the guy who actually crafted it kind of came on. It was like, I don't know what to do with this, which made me laugh because I would be the same way. I would have been really upset that I didn't have it last league because, I mean, it's awaken. Or that's new, though, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have really done it, but still,Tyler: no, but it doesn't have to. I mean, I know you're against how zombies were were cut down a bit, this league, but that's not so. I'll be specific by any means. No, I know. But so respect all Dominion buffs from last later still applicable. That thing's crazy but still insane. It's still absurd. That's something like, even if you had a mirror, you would just put that somehow on display just so that you could look at it sometimes,Justin: yeah, It's crazy. I couldn't believe it when I was reading through it. So cool. Yeah, I wanted to just give a quick show boat. We've gotten some pretty cool feedback from people that have been listening and people that have given us some advice and some constructive criticism. You know, the lovely kind, But I want to just give a shout out to all those people and, ah, we don't have a list of everyone, but we're going to start making a list because it's it's a really big deal to us. It really helps us figure out what we should do better for the next ones. And let us know that people enjoy the time that we share together, you know?Tyler: Yeah. No, it's It's been really cool. It's been a lot of fun. We're only five episodes in, but every episode has been listened to more than the previous one, and it's ah, it's exciting to see how it goes, but it's ah oh, we just want to say a big thank you to people that do find this enjoyable, and we definitely would value your feedback for sure. So I know we said at the end of every episode. But just to emphasize, if you tweet us at forever exiled 82. Just positive feedback, negative feedback. Whatever it is, we do want to make this a really good podcast for you and something that lots of path of exile players would really enjoy it here. So let us know what you think. We thank you very much for listening to all the episodes that you already have.Justin: If it's mean we'll start a Twitter war straight up. That's right. Fight to the death of Twitter. All right, cool. Well, listen, Thanks for everybody listening. This, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This was Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host tags, A k a JustinTyler: A key. I'm Tyler, also known as Wrecker of Days......ThanksJustin:  Check out the show Notes below. To find more information on today's episode, you can find us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82

Imagine being able to learn, hands-on, exactly how to operate a deep-sea submarine — without needing the submarine! That’s the kind of training opportunities VR training platforms like Immerse are able to offer with the technology at their disposal. James Watson and Justin Parry drop in to talk about all the other opportunities the tech presents businesses. Alan: You’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today, we have two amazing guests, James Watson and Justin Parry from Immerse. Justin is the co-founder and chief operating officer and leads product strategy for Immerse. As a founder, he designed and led product development of the Immerse platform from scratch. He now oversees the delivery of all technology and VR content across the organization. Justin has 20 years experience creating and growing B2C and B2B products from startups to global organizations. He’s developed and launched online platforms, websites, mobile products across the world, and joined Immerse from his role as global director of the Internet Yellow Pages for Yell Group. Immerse Virtual Enterprise Platform enables enterprises to create scale and measure virtual reality training content and programs. The platform enables enterprises to look at training and assessment in a completely different way, providing the tools to help maximize human performance, resulting in a more engaged, better equipped and safer workforce. If you want to learn more, you can visit immerse.io. Guys, welcome to the show. Justin: Hello. James: Thanks, Alan. Alan: [laughs] Hey. So you guys are in beautiful, sunny, warm UK. How’s it going over there? Justin: Well, it was very sunny until last week, actually, with the sort of slightly freakish weather that we’ve been having, but today is cold. James: It’s British grey. Justin: Yeah. Alan: British grey. Oh, well, we’ll just assume it’s beautiful and sunny. So let’s get digging in here. I’ve had a chance to try out the Immerse platform. It’s really amazing. You’re completely immersed, and the demo that you guys did for us: We were inside of a submarine. We not only go into it, but interact with all the bits of the submarine and start to learn parts of, “how do I make some things work?” And the great thing about it is you guys were there every step of the way. But one of you was in VR, and the other one was on a tablet or a computer. Talk to us, just to how did Immerse come to be? Justin: Well, we’ve been in the training space quite a long time. We weren’t initially in VR. We actually delivered our training applications via desktop, but they were always multi-user. So we would be tying together people from somewhere — maybe even Kazakhstan, some oil and gas training that we did — with trainers that may be in Iraq, or in the UK, or wherever that might be. And that was all done in a sort of virtual world. So it’s a little bit like the old Second Life, if people remember that. So it’s a powerful proposition, but it’s still a little bit difficult to sell. So with the advent of the headsets — or the latest generation of headsets, at least — we made the move into VR and a lot of services that we built there just kind of immediately made sense, and we got traction very quickly. We effectively then pivoted the whole company to be a full-on VR training platform. We rebuilt a lot of those services, especially for VR, because there was obviously some small itemization that we need to make. And so we find ourselves where we are today. And just in terms what you said there,

Imagine being able to learn, hands-on, exactly how to operate a deep-sea submarine — without needing the submarine! That’s the kind of training opportunities VR training platforms like Immerse are able to offer with the technology at their disposal. James Watson and Justin Parry drop in to talk about all the other opportunities the tech presents businesses. Alan: You’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today, we have two amazing guests, James Watson and Justin Parry from Immerse. Justin is the co-founder and chief operating officer and leads product strategy for Immerse. As a founder, he designed and led product development of the Immerse platform from scratch. He now oversees the delivery of all technology and VR content across the organization. Justin has 20 years experience creating and growing B2C and B2B products from startups to global organizations. He’s developed and launched online platforms, websites, mobile products across the world, and joined Immerse from his role as global director of the Internet Yellow Pages for Yell Group. Immerse Virtual Enterprise Platform enables enterprises to create scale and measure virtual reality training content and programs. The platform enables enterprises to look at training and assessment in a completely different way, providing the tools to help maximize human performance, resulting in a more engaged, better equipped and safer workforce. If you want to learn more, you can visit immerse.io. Guys, welcome to the show. Justin: Hello. James: Thanks, Alan. Alan: [laughs] Hey. So you guys are in beautiful, sunny, warm UK. How’s it going over there? Justin: Well, it was very sunny until last week, actually, with the sort of slightly freakish weather that we’ve been having, but today is cold. James: It’s British grey. Justin: Yeah. Alan: British grey. Oh, well, we’ll just assume it’s beautiful and sunny. So let’s get digging in here. I’ve had a chance to try out the Immerse platform. It’s really amazing. You’re completely immersed, and the demo that you guys did for us: We were inside of a submarine. We not only go into it, but interact with all the bits of the submarine and start to learn parts of, “how do I make some things work?” And the great thing about it is you guys were there every step of the way. But one of you was in VR, and the other one was on a tablet or a computer. Talk to us, just to how did Immerse come to be? Justin: Well, we’ve been in the training space quite a long time. We weren’t initially in VR. We actually delivered our training applications via desktop, but they were always multi-user. So we would be tying together people from somewhere — maybe even Kazakhstan, some oil and gas training that we did — with trainers that may be in Iraq, or in the UK, or wherever that might be. And that was all done in a sort of virtual world. So it’s a little bit like the old Second Life, if people remember that. So it’s a powerful proposition, but it’s still a little bit difficult to sell. So with the advent of the headsets — or the latest generation of headsets, at least — we made the move into VR and a lot of services that we built there just kind of immediately made sense, and we got traction very quickly. We effectively then pivoted the whole company to be a full-on VR training platform. We rebuilt a lot of those services, especially for VR, because there was obviously some small itemization that we need to make. And so we find ourselves where we are today. And just in terms what you said there,

Managing Partner at Float Chad Udell discusses his accidental entrance into the field of learning and development. Talking to Justin Brusino, ATD's learning tech content manager, Chad discusses the importance of keeping your finger on the learning tech pulse.  --- Justin: All right, hello everyone, and thank you for joining us. I'm Justin Brusino, content manager for learning technologies at ATD, and we are recording live from the 2019 ATD International Conference And Exposition in Washington DC. So I am joined today by Chad Udell, who is partner at Float. Chad, thanks for joining me today. Chad: It's good to be here, Justin. Thanks for having me. Justin: So Chad, we're keeping you pretty busy at the conference. I know you launched a new book, you're speaking, you have a lot going on. But you didn't necessarily start in the learning field, can you talk a little bit about your background and what led you to the talent development, the learning and development field? Chad: Sure, I guess I'd be almost that stereotypical accidental instructional designer, a very similar story that a lot of folks, I think, in this industry tend to fall into—had another course of study, had another discipline, and then just plunked into here. I went to school for graphic design, and then taught myself multimedia design, and then gradually, the things that I was building, became a little bit more educational in nature, so it just fell over fully full time into this space. Justin: Yeah, and what have you-- so I think that we've known each other probably for 10 years now. And I know you've been in the industry a little bit longer than that. What keeps you engaged after all these years? Chad: Well, it's very easy to become cynical and think, oh, things don't ever change, and things just stay the same, and why would I stay so engaged in this community if it's moving slowly or something like that, but we need to remember that 10 years ago, so much was very, very different, even then. Like smartphones and tablets really hadn't quite happened yet. They were just getting going. Things like AI and adaptive learning. All the things that are so hot right now were basically just the glimmer in some product designers eye at that point. And so things do change, and things do shift, so being engaged, I do see incremental improvements and incremental changes, and I think that keeps me engaged and energized. And then also seeing the wonderment or the new blood that comes into some of these events in a year to year basis. What I have to remember that, while I might come to a lot of these conferences and you go to a lot of these conferences, there are many folks here that are experiencing this type of spectacle, this type of thing for the very first time. And so I try to maintain that level of freshness in my approach to coming to these events. Justin: Yeah, I think that's what's interesting about the industry in that there are always people sort of falling into it, so there's a lot of people experiencing things for the first time. But we'd love for you to talk more about how you see the industry moving or not moving, because I think it is a certain interesting dichotomy, where I think some of the things we're talking about 10 years ago we're still talking about now. But then there are things like adaptive learning that people seem to be talking about a lot. So at one side, certain things that move, but then there are trends that pick up and take fire. Chad: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, training development or talent development industry, the learning and development professions oftentimes are having to deal with the aftermath of either bad people, processes, tools, technology that might be existing in the workplace. So those types of things I think are the same, and probably always going to be the same. It's difficult to source talent for your organization. It's difficult to hire, retrain, train, and bring people into the fold and keep them engaged as an employee. So those types of challenges are not really ever going to probably go away. At least not ‘til it's just robots doing all the work and humans no longer have to actually show up their 9 to 5 gig. So those things I think stay say very similar, but the way that we're reaching these learners is definitely being reshaped, right? Most organizations now have moved to some level of acceptable use policy and can allow mobile communications and social engagements and alternate channels of learning. And I think that there's also a little bit of a tidal wave here, where a lot of people, especially those that are in-the-know, that are progressive, and that are really thinking in a forward thinking manner realize that the source of control for who holds the knowledge in the organizations is also shifting. And so therefore, they need to move to those different corners of the organization in order to stay tapped in. Justin: Right. Yeah, and just the way-- I think the way work is getting done is changing. And technology has a lot of force on that. Chad: Yeah, I would say so as well. I mean, I think the-- I joked earlier about the 9 to 5, but I don't know about you, but I don't really have a 9 to 5 anymore. It's like a 9 to 9, and then maybe a little bit of a break, and then have some dinner something else hopefully catch up on some TV or hang out with the family, take the dogs for a walk, but then it's right back to it. And so I think all of those types of things have been dramatically flipped over, especially in the last 10 to 12 years, right? Justin: So going back to you and your journey in the industry, is there something that, going back, you wish you had known when you started out? Chad: Yeah, I think that from my background as being a graphic designer and just acknowledging the fact that, to me, good learning design is good information design, which is good graphic design, so it kind of trickles all the way back through there. But I think that if I had maybe approached it from just a slightly different angle and earlier in my career acknowledged that some people hold certain design tenants and approaches for teaching and for learning very personally and to maybe be a little bit more sensitive. To be more welcoming in that. It probably would have saved me a few bumps and bruises earlier on in the career. Justin: Right. Yeah, it is interesting that it all comes back to good design, right? So your background in graphic design, and now people are talking about user experience design and how we can sort of adopt that in the instructional design and learning space. It's really interesting. Chad: Yeah, without a doubt. We want our content to be accessible, we want it to be inclusive, we want it to be easy to use, welcoming. All those types of things that make a good interaction between yourself and an e-commerce website or yourself in the streaming box that's hooked up to your you know HBO subscription so that you can watch your favorite movies or Netflix or whatever it might be. You want to emulate and reuse those same sorts of tenants and heuristics in your day-to-day learning technology design explorations as well. Justin: Yeah, so I look at you as a resource-- as someone that I know is always on the cutting edge of what's out there. I think you're always curious and interested about new Technology, so what is your approach to that in just keeping current with what's out there, whether it's in the learning technology space or just the broader technology space? Chad: Well, I like to think that I'm a chronic early adopter. I know I use that as a little bit of a joke in some of the intros to my presentations, and I'm just not afraid to try some things out. I buy new gadgets, I try them out with my friends and my family. I try them out at work, and I read a lot. I'd probably say at least 15% to maybe 20% of my day-to-day just spent researching and keeping current. Reading technology blogs, reading venture capital funding websites, like TechCrunch or Ars Technica, or reading development blogs and software development technique news, and so on and so forth just to stay tapped in. So it is a deliberate and intentional action on my part. It doesn't happen by accident. Justin: No, absolutely. And I think it's awesome that you-- I mean, you have to build that time intentionally, right? You have to allocate that time in your daily schedule, or it's easy to fall behind. Because like you said, that takes time. Reading and research is a very time consuming process. Chad: It is. Absolutely. And I don't think if I wasn't tapped in or reading or able to have the cliché thumb on the-- or finger on the…pulse or whatever it is. It would limit my ability to be able to deliver leading edge solutions to my customers and clients. It would limit my ability to hire and source talent for my business as well. It would limit my ability to-- I guess-- ensure some level of sustainability for this entire of endeavor that we're going through-- that we're all going through. As an accidental trainer Chad U-dell fell into the field of talent development through his graphic design background. He wants to remind other accidental trainers that when you are starting out, be sure you are sensitive to other points of view, especially on other people's learning methods and perspectives. Being more welcoming can help lead you to success relationships and a career. Keep current by researching and not being afraid to try new things. Change is inevitable so don't be left with your finger off the pulse! Justin: So looking back at the industry as a whole, what's something that you would like to see change in the industry? Chad: I think-- well, I'm obviously biased because I'm a learning technologist, but I think that one of the things that I'd really like to see happen in the talent development, the training learning development industry vertical market is to regain some level of leadership in assessing technologies for the workplace. And this doesn't mean just learning technologies, but actually actively engaging with the rest of the enterprise in technology sourcing and selection. So why hasn't training being invited to the conversations when you're looking for a new supply chain management system or a new CRM or ERP or order entry system or whatever it might be. Because oftentimes, training is going to have to come in and basically act as the cleanup crew to show somebody how to use these software and tools and processes. And if you're not engaging as the training department or manager or someone that has a distinct and very real interest in making sure that everybody's day to day is easier and better and more productive, if you're not engaging in that sourcing and that procurement process to bring the technologies into your space in the first place, you're taking a backseat and you're ceding control of something that you could have a much more active hand in. Justin: Yeah, and so your recommendation is for people in the field to really get more involved in those conversations, right? Chad: Yeah, we want to get invited to those conversations and put in those tables around those meetings earlier in the process. Far earlier in the process than we have. I mean, I think there's way too many people of us could-- there's way too many of us could relate to, it's two months away from launching this brand new order entry system, oh, shoot. We didn't build any training for it. Well, one. If the order entry system actually needs a tremendous amount of training on it, maybe the order entry system hasn't been designed in a very human centric process in the first hand. But again, why would training be only alerted to this a couple months before the launch, or even worse, two weeks before the launch, build the e-learning, build a screen capture, dump it out, and make somebody watch a 30-minute video in order to do a five-minute process in a software. That's just a darn shame. Justin: So thinking about preparing people in the industry for the future, what sorts of skills do you think are going to be important in the next five or 10 years? Chad: There's so many of them that are-- I think-- just on the horizon right now, and a lot of it has to do with the ways that technologies might grow organically inside of the organizations. Not to flog the book too much, but the new title that Gary Woodill and I collaborated on, The Shock of the New, we do talk about a number of technologies in the book, like augmented reality and virtual reality, which is obviously making a ton of waves right now. Things like enter the internet of things or the internet of everything, if you want to talk about it in all encapsulating view, those are obviously going to be impacting us. Artificial intelligence and machine learning is going to dramatically reshape how things like performance support and performance management work. So I think there's a tremendous amount of potential out there. It's just going to require-- I think-- a huge amount of acknowledgment that there is flexibility, humility, the ability to move forward and acknowledge that things are going to change, and so therefore, we have to be receptive of that change. Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Things are just going to change faster and faster, there is no going backwards at this point. Chad: Correct. Justin: So to wrap up, we're asking everyone this the same last question, and we'd love for you to tell me about something that you failed at in your career-- or in life-- and what you learned from it and how that changed you. Chad: Yeah. I can give you a really specific example, and this is-- it's a failure, but I think in that failure, we learned a tremendous amount, which I think helps me look back on it as time well-spent, where it ultimately does become a success when you look through it through the rear view mirror, if you will. So a couple of years ago, our company was engaged and involved in an incubator program that was made available through Google and Lenovo to do some augmented reality applications. And at that time, we built an application called Cydalion, which was made to assist the visually impaired individuals in society navigate interior spaces, essentially turning the real world objects, the rooms map, if you will, into something less visual and more sound based. So transmitting a sonar of sorts to these individuals. Where we succeeded was the software is actually highly usable. People liked it. People engaged with it. It worked. That was a big win, right? Obviously, when the software works, that's a win. But there were some things that were I guess a little bit beyond our control that we hadn't really foreseen. So I think where we failed was we assumed that if we built software, made it available, and then it worked, that people would flock to it. There was challenges related to the market size and scale, right? So when we talk about technology investments, oftentimes, the larger organizations, they want to be talking about userships in the millions and millions and hundreds of millions. There are not as many visually impaired people in order to make a technology buying decision that would have justified the product market fit and the pricing strategy that was necessary in order to make a business like that's sustainable. And then furthermore, there were also technology challenges. Because it was built on top of some technologies that were made available by a very large organization, we had almost no actual control or influence over the direction and roadmap of those types of technologies that were also out there. So we had internal controls-- not necessarily hubris or anything like that, but maybe a lack of understanding of the constraints of the actual business marketplace. And then we also had external factors that contributed to our failure, which were, sometimes you just don't have-- you don't get to pilot the ship. You're a passenger on some of these types of technology journeys that we're all going on, and so therefore, you have to acknowledge that, sometimes the rug can get pulled out from underneath you, and you better have some sort of an exit plan or a backup plan. And what we built was an application and a system and an experiment, if you will, that ultimately, was really, really successful. We did learned quite a bit in the long-term view of it, but at the time, it hurt a lot. Justin: Yeah, so how did that change the way you looked at future projects and evaluated future projects?   Chad: So the things I think that we've continued to leverage and use from that is understand that we want to have-- when we move into a technology space, that we have some form of an exit plan in place. What happens if this particular technology goes belly up or gets sold out or folds or the VC funding for that runs out or something like that. So how do we get out of it? And then also, are we building in a way that's incremental enough in nature that if, for any reason, we need to pull out or leave or get out of it or stop building, that we haven't overbuilt or over engineered to the point where we feel like we've invested unwisely. Right. Yeah, there's no assets that you can pull out of it that are useful still. Justin: Awesome. Well, Chad, thanks for being with me today. So where can people find you? Chad: So people can find me at my company's website, gowithfloat.com, of course. I'm on Twitter. My username is a throwback to my graphic design days. It's VisualRinse. And of course, you can find me at TD.orgs bookstore with the new book, Shock of the New. Justin: Awesome. Thanks, Chad. Have a good rest the conference.   Additional Resources: Shock of the New, by Chad Udell and Gary Woodill. Chad's LinkedIn page Chad on Amazon Learning Tech Topic page at ATD's website ATD International Conference & EXPO 2020 in Denver

In this episode of The Accidental Trainer, ATD's Justin Brusino sits down with Chief Learning Architect at Axonify JD Dillon to discuss how he got his start in the field as an instructional designer and how he keeps current with the latest trends and technologies.  Justin: All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us. This is Justin Brusino, Content Manager For Learning Technologies at ATD. And we're recording here live from the ATD 2019 International Conference and Exposition in Washington DC. And I'm joined today by JD Dillon who is the founder of Learn Geek and the CLO at Axonify. JD, thanks for stopping by and chatting with us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Hi, everybody. So JD, you attend a ton of conferences, probably more than anyone else I know in the industry. What got you started in the industry? What is your path here? JD: First I'm going to say Karl Kapp probably beats me. Because I see Karl everywhere I go. So I'm assuming he travels a bit more. But from a learning and development perspective, I'm one of the classic examples of someone who didn't go to school for this, have pretty much no formal training in this experience. I was an operational manager for the first half of my career. So I started out in movie theaters and was often the HR manager, which meant that I was responsible for things like training and all the other human resource functions. And then when I transitioned into my role at Disney where I spent about a decade, I was in operations management in the beginning. And then kind of got lucky, right place, right time in terms of taking on a role as a facilitator in learning and development for a big initiative that was going on around the company. And at that moment, I just kind of had this strange combination where my undergrad studies were in radio, television productions. So I have some media development capability. I'd done a lot of work around public speaking. I had been in HR. And I was very focused on the front line employee experience and enabling employees as a manager. I was kind of always seen as the employee's manager. So I think when you start to combine all those things, by the time I got to Disney and was serious about my shift in learning and development, I had built this set of skills and kind of a sensibility with my particular take on L&D. And then from Disney, after that, I kind of went serious about learning development, ended up at Kaplan in a director role. And then now I'm with Axonify and, of course, my own entity Learn Geek, and whatnot. Justin: Very cool. So I guess that you attend a ton of shows. You're very active on social media. You blog. You're very engaged. So what sort of keeps you engaged in the industry kind of after all these years? Because you've been doing it for a little while. JD: Sure. So I generally, I think I'm one of the people who's in this business for the altruistic reasons behind learning and support in the workplace. I am not in learning and talent development for the money, let's say. So if you are, I'd love to talk to you. But I generally look at it as I'm the one who's trying to do their best to enable other people to then help people not get hurt at work, or to just be better at what they do. My tagline with Learn Geek is something to the effect of, helping other people do what they do better. And again, my entire career, whether it be in a front line manager role, in a senior manager role, in L&D roles, it's always about trying to help people have a more enjoyable working experience and kind of come to the level of performance that they wish to be. Because I personally believe everyone wants to do a good job. They just typically don't have the type of support they need to get to that point. And I've always been the person who's trying to help and get there. So from an industry perspective, I look at what I do is just trying to help the people who are trying to help those people in the front lines. And that's what keeps me focused on exploring new ideas, sharing information. And also just from an engagement perspective, I always look at it as, like I still don't believe anyone reads anything I write, ever. So I look at that experience, and even talking in a conference like this, an experience of exploring my own thoughts and ideas as a way to evolve where I can focus next how I can improve on a particular idea. So I get more value out of sharing and then getting feedback and kind of sensing how people are leveraging information I share than I do sitting in a room reading and white boarding to myself and things like that. Justin: So from an industry perspective, I feel like we sort of talk about the same sorts of things year after year. Do you think the industry is one that changes or doesn't change fast enough? JD: I think learning and development is generally a great example of how much faster thought leadership-- put big air quotes around that-- thought leadership moves than corporate reality moves. And even being on the technology side of the conversation now, I mean, there's a million things you can build. There's a ton of directions you can go. But it's a question of, how do you advance the conversation while at the same time meeting people where they are and helping them evolve at a rate that's meaningful. At the same time, in my L&D moments in corporate roles, I have felt the pressure of, the business is changing around us. If we don't change, we die because our ability to provide value is considerably lessened. So I think we, in our roles inside of organizations, need to evolve more quickly because many other people say, it's no longer our choice. People are going to find support, whether it be management, front-line employees, they're going to find their way to help whether or not it's provided by us. So I think we have to do a better job moving more quickly. And I think that the industry as a whole can move faster. But it's that day-to-day corporate reality that has to drive the charge forward. Because we can come up with tons of great ideas, but if they can't be used in the reality of life in an organization, it's just talk at that point. Justin: Yeah. And that's what I think is interesting about being at events like this one and talking to people that are in the offices every day and doing the work every day, is that there sometimes is that gulf between what they're dealing with and then what sort of, like you said, the quote, unquote "thought leaders" are talking about. JD: Like I said, I could sit here and talk all day about how we can leverage AI and machine learning in order to automate a variety of functions from a learning and development perspective. But then when you go back into an organization, and the legal team is still requiring every employee to view every slide of an e-learning, there's such a disconnect between the potential and what is reality that you can't ask people to make the leap. I look at it as, can I arm people with discussion points, ideas to help start shifting the mindset that opens the door to greater evolution and improvement for L&D. Justin: Yeah. It is a really incremental change type of thing. And you're right. It does start with a mindset shift. So thinking back to sort of your personal growth, is there something that you wish you knew when you started out in the field? JD: I wish I had realized there were other people trying to solve the same problems as I was way before I did. This is going to sound odd, but one of the best things I ever did was join Twitter and leave Disney. Because I still remember the moment that I joined Twitter and found a learning development community out there talking. And it was a person walked into my office at Kaplan and said, have you seen this person on Twitter. It was Bianca Woods by the way. And I said, no, I don't know e-Geeking. And I started following her. And it just kind of snowballed into growing this greater network of people that helped me drive my practices forward. The challenge with Disney was just the fact that when I worked there, we were very much wrapped up in how we did things because it is truly a unique organization and a unique culture. So I wasn't in a position to go out and I didn't make the effort upon myself. I think in the moment in time it was, it wasn't like pre-internet or anything, but things like YouTube weren't where they were now. Social media wasn't what it is now. So it wasn't coming to me. And I wasn't enough of an effort to go to it. So changing roles and going into an organization where the roles weren't as clearly defined, it was an organization that had 50 years of doing it and doing it right, helped me kind of expand my worldview to say there are other people out there that are solving similar problems. Let's learn from them in addition to the things I do day-to-day. Justin: You're someone that I think keeps  up to date on trends. So what's sort of your process? How do you kind of research things, look at things? How do you stay current on all the stuff that's going on in the industry? JD: Sure. So one,  I would say I'm still heavily connected to a network of people that I rely on. So it's less about me going out and hunting for what's new. Obviously, I get some exposure from events like this and whatnot. But I have the benefit of knowing a lot of the people who are doing the presentations and leading the conversation. So staying connected in those conversations on the side, knowing certain people who, if they share a resource, I know it's something that I should take a look at in greater detail. At the same time, I think I always try to make the comparison between the experience of having in everyday life and the way that things like technology and whatnot are changing around me, and asking the question, well, how does this contextualize to the workplace. And recognizing-- and having made the mistakes in the past where it's not a deadlift. You can't just take Facebook at everyday life and put it at work and expect it to do the same thing so it's happened in everyday life.  So recognizing that and having done a ton of experiments early in my career has helped me kind of develop a way of looking at things that are based on one fundamental principle. So what is this really beyond the trend? When we say microlearning, what are we actually talking about from a principal's perspective? Because there's so much commonality between different trendy things when you break them down far enough. And then two, applying it in the context of the people we're trying to support. Because saying virtual reality is a great idea in one context, it could be a really bad idea in another context. So really grounding it in the reality of what it is to work inside of an organization and kind of put it through those multiple lenses to determine, is this something worth exploring further. Or is this a lot of-- a conversation I had earlier today used the word snake oil, which I still don't know if that's ever really been a thing. But is it more of that or is there actual promise here if positioned in the right context. Justin: So what sort of value do you see in in-person events? Because obviously you attend a ton. And you're not-- I mean, there's some speakers that come in. They come in for their session. And then they leave. You're definitely someone that comes in. And you engage with the conference. You attend the keynotes. You attend other sessions. You're chatting with people. So attending so many events per year, how do you continue to sort of get value out of them? And what value do you see from conferences like this? JD: So my value has changed considerably over the years. So the first conference I ever attended professionally was this conference in Chicago several years back at this point. And it was a kind of a rough place to start just because of how big and fast this event moves. Since then, I've done big and small events of all types. I even do a lot of events outside of the L&D space. So I'll be standing in front of a group of loss prevention professionals at a safety and security conference, talking about the value of microlearning and things like that. So for me, the values evolved to a point where, one, the members of the network I mentioned, a lot of them are physically in place only at those moments where I won't see them coming into the country or into a particular state at other times. So being able to connect face-to-face with people who you engage with online. Same is true especially for members of the network I don't know because they're not necessarily contributors. They're more kind of lurkers and they're listening. And like I said, I don't think people read what I write. And then I come to a place like this and people start talking to me about things that I've said or things that I've written and how it's relating to their work. I never would have known that unless they saw me and talked to me here. So there's a value there. And then it is an opportunity to kind of surf around where maybe I don't attend sessions as much as I have in the past and sit through an entire session, but to kind of see what people are talking about, what types of questions people are asking, where the kind of interests are, and, again, just kind of getting grounded.  Because I don't, in the work that I do every day, face the same challenges a lot of these folks are facing. And the same challenges I faced when I was in corporate roles, working directly with subject matter experts, trying to influence senior management teams to make decisions, working in the front lines, and I can feel that disconnect growing over time. So I do different things to try to make sure I come back into a world where I am as practical as I can be. So you walk away from anything that I do with insight that you can actually use as opposed to being highfalutin pie in the sky type ideas. Justin: Yeah. I mean, I think events are great to keep you grounded in a way. Because again, you're talking with people and actually learning what their actual challenges are. I think that sometimes all of us can tend to operate in a bubble, whether that's in work or even on social media and Twitter and what certain experts are talking about. But being here, I think you learn a lot in a few days chatting with people. JD: Yeah. After my most recent session I just finished, which is why my voice is a little bit hoarse-- I go hard for two hours. But one gentleman I spoke to after the session works in federal aviation safety. I have no experience in federal aviation safety. But I'm very excited about it because I fly a lot and would very much like him to do well. So it really helps when I have those moments where people come up and say, like I like your ideas, how would you think about it in this context. It helps me think about my own presentation content and the things that I talk about in a different way. Because I may never directly interact with that line of business in any of my work. But it helps me kind of come through a lens of a world that I didn't necessarily know existed or maybe never necessarily think about. As an Accidental Trainer himself, JD wishes he had known about the L&D community online when he found twitter he found his people and he was able to grow his talent development career. You listeners have already found ATD and this podcast, so you are one step ahead. JD still goes to a number of conferences and is on LinkedIn and Twitter, this is really how he builds his network and keeps up to date with the trends. There is so much you gain from researching and reading online, but leveraging your connections and attending conferences can really help drive your career forward. JD discusses this in-depth in this podcast. Justin: So looking back at the industry as a whole, what's something you'd like to see changed in the industry? JD: Where do-- how do I make this a shorter list so this isn't an hour conversation. I think one of the biggest challenges I have, and I can kind of connect it to events, is that I get the sense that a lot of people are like me when I was younger in my career, which is I do things the way I do them in my organization. I'm in a relatively siloed bubble. And then when I have an opportunity, I come out for four days. I learn as much as I can in four days. But then I retreat back into the bubble. And I don't necessarily pick up new information or evolve until I maybe have another opportunity. And a lot of people don't have an opportunity to go to an event like this. Or maybe they have an opportunity once in a while, if not maybe once a year. So I wish we would do a better job of a bit of eating our own dog food when it comes to building network, sharing of information, doing our best to kind of get around a lot of the limitations. Because I know when you're a corporate employee, a lot of times you just can't share. You're not allowed to talk about what you're doing because lawyers exist. But are there ways to talk more about practices and principles and less about your name and logo, and share and engage in a community conversation whether that be a social media conversation or something else that doesn't require the effort of always having it all go to a city, and spend a couple of days doing it, and then run away. Because when we talk about things like microlearning, and learning science principles, and space repetition, it's kind of the best example when you go to an event, learn as much as possible, go home. How much did you remember? How much did you get the opportunity to apply immediately in your work? So I'd like to see more of that kind of tangible information sharing, experience sharing outside of an event and kind of build events off of that for what you really get value of being in place. So the biggest thing I see is getting out of that bubble, engaging with folks. And the other thing I would, and I talked about this earlier today with another group, is not be swayed as much by the vendor side of our work. And this is strange for me to say because I am a vendor. But it makes me look at things with a little bit of a different lens in terms of what is noise in marketing and what is value added information that's trying to drive the industry and the community further along. And I mean, how many webinars could you attend today in this industry? Like 30? How many of them are actually driving the conversation forward versus being a sales pitch? And in the work I do with my teams, I'm always driving for practical information you can use regardless of if you work directly with me or you're doing something on your own. So that's the other thing. I hope we can see through things a little bit more, see through trends, see through when it's marketing noise down to, again, those fundamental principles that can really help us improve our work and iterate along the way. Justin: So let's have you kind of look into the future a little bit and give a prediction for what the industry might look like or how it might change in the next, say, five to 10 years. JD: Yeah, 10 years, good luck with that. I'm talking more and more as a topic of focus in the area of AI, machine learning, and whatnot and trying to help cut off the trendiness that will emerge or is already emerging around that type of topic. I always use the example of mobile learning. Well, we got distracted away from how can we best use the devices people are carrying and made it more about learning and development things than the actual topic. AI is not an L&D thing. It's a discipline that's well established with decades of information and experience and very smart people, way smarter than me, who understand the potential for these types of ideas. So I think that's the big quote, unquote "trend" that I'm staring down and trying to help interpret the potential for the type of work we do, both from a front end user perspective, how employees are going to benefit from our ability to scale, support, and data more effectively than we ever have before. And then also, on the L&D practitioner side, it will change the conversation around what content development is, what systems administration is, how we figure out where to focus our resources, the role that we play. So we're supporting people who work in an AI-enabled world with AI-enabled capability. So if five years from now, I would be shocked if that's not a core of the conversation. And even if you look at the schedule-- I don't know if you search the schedule for this event as much as I do for trends and words. If you search all of the session descriptions from this conference, the letters or some reference to AI shows up almost twice as much as the word microlearning. And last year, microlearning was in and AI almost didn't exist at this conference. So that leap, I think, is indicative. Not necessarily everyone's got the answer here. But it shows a shift down a path that technology overall in the workplace is taking us. Because the first people to introduce AI in your organization, not going to be L&D. It's going to be somewhere on the operational side. And it's going to change the environment in which we operate. We'd be silly not to use similar types of tools to improve what we do. So in five years, I think it's a similar type of evolution that to our world that's happening in the front line space to say, what skills are actually required, what can be automated, what can't be. And then, what role do we play? Justin: So keeping those sorts of changes in mind, what sorts of skills do you think people in the L&D industry, the talent development industry, need to develop to sort of stay prepared, stay current? JD: Yeah. The first big thing, especially around topics like data and AI, is realizing we don't have to do it ourselves. We tend to, often and again, I've done the same thing, is try to recreate the wheel in our own image rather than look around our organization and realize there are people who are very good at certain things that we could be leveraging one way or another. But make sure that we're doing such to build a relationship before we need to go get them. There's this constant battle between-- I mean, an easy joke to make as a presenter at an L&D event is to say something about how you're always struggling with IT, hahaha. Right. Back on IT. But that's unfortunate because we need them, especially doing anything at scale. Same conversation needs to happen around folks like data strategists and data analysts inside of organizations who are already there. Someone who's driving an AI machine learning kind of automation conversation in your business, they're already there. They've been hired because they're very skilled at these particular things. So rather than try to evolve L&D to match, how do you work with people, buy them lunch, grow relationships, to realize how you can work together. And then start to realize, where do you need to develop skills in areas like data science and maybe bring on people or evolve your understanding, what not. And then where can you partner? And I think it's figuring out where those specific skills are required. And then, make sure that you're dangerous enough to engage in a strategy conversation, understand where your organization is going, and where you as an L&D team can take advantage of these types of topics rather than trying to become an expert in everything. Because I know the eLearning Guild and Jane Bozarth did some research recently around things like job descriptions. And if you look at today, an instructional designer job description business to business, it's a radically different job. So rather than try to become something to everyone, figure out what do you know to be dangerous enough in a variety of topics in order to be able to be efficient at helping people. So that's kind of what I would urge people to do is make relationships with influencers inside your organization and figure out what do you have to be better at, things like, well, you have to be a better writer. But in what way? You have to be smarter about data but exactly how? And I would say, it's going to lean less and less about content development and more and more about influencing people, working to solve problems, those skills that people are already talking about that are important and inherently human as opposed to things that we can automate out of our workflows. Justin: All right, JD. So we'll get you out here on this. We're asking, kind of wrapping up with everyone, asking about failure. So we'd love for you to tell us about a time that you failed at something and what you learned from it and how it maybe helped change your perspective or helped you grow. JD: Sure. So I would say this one's a little bit less of my-- I've failed plenty. I once tried to use a cartoon to teach people about a compliance topic. And that did not go well. So I got laughed off the-- I don't know what I got laughed off of. But I got laughed at for that one. But a different moment in time in a different L&D role, I was chugging along doing things in what I would traditionally term a traditional way. A lot of click Next to Continue type e-learning, a lot of instructor-led training. Because I didn't necessarily know much beyond that. Like I said, not formally trained, not really exposed to a greater community early in my career. I was relatively new to the organization. So I didn't have a ton of grounding in the organization. But I thought I was doing my job. And then I come into work and they laid off half the company. And it wasn't my fault. It was like training failed, therefore we lost half the business. It was more of a-- to not use corporate jargon. But it was a right sizing moment where the organization had grown and it didn't quite match the strategy where they had to evolve. So it was more management's fault than L&D's fault. But that moment clicked in my head. It hurt me. I didn't get laid off. I lost a lot of my resources. My world changed around me. Because suddenly, I had to support a larger audience with more diverse skills than the smaller group I had been supporting before the restructure took place. But I took it personally as why didn't I know this was coming, why didn't I know we were struggling to this degree, and why wasn't my focus on saving people? And I couldn't have headed it off one way or the other. But that day changed the way I looked at what I did and made it more about focusing on what was most critical to the organization and what would make people successful so we were successful as a business. Because that's what learning can do, more so than, learning is a good idea because we offer so many courses and things like that. So I think that moment, kind of an institutional failure, is what really turned me into someone who thinks practically focuses on what's going to make a business more successful and what can make you, as an employee, more successful day-to-day. And then, what are all of the ways that I can do that, not just about training as a way to do that. So I it was a helpful moment. But it was an unfortunate moment for everyone that was involved in that particular change. Justin: Well, that's a great story. JD, thanks for chatting with me today. I appreciate it. So where can people find you if they want to reach out, get in touch, see what you're up to? JD: So a couple options, so from a social media perspective on Twitter, I'm @jd_dillon. And from a website perspective, I share a variety of information in two main channels. One is through Axonify. So if you go to axonify.com. And the second is my personal blog, which is learngeek.co. Justin: Cool. Awesome, JD. Thanks for chatting with me today. Thank you very much, Justin. Thanks for tuning into ADT Talks Talent. Please share this podcast with your colleagues. And if you've got ideas for future episodes, we'd love to hear them. Email us at podcasts@td.org.   Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and leave us a review.    Resources: Follow JD on Twitter or read his blog.  Visit ATD's Learning Technologies Topic page. ATD has a number of local chapter and national events happening all over the country and world. Visit our events page to see the next conference you can attend and connect with others in the field. One event you should consider attending is the ATD International Conference and Expo, which is where this episode was recorded in 2019. ATD 2020 will be held in Denver, CO. and offers four days packed filled with learning and networking opportunities.

Finance Friday with Steven, Jill & Justin (LA 938) Transcript: Steven Butala:                   Steve and Jill here. Jill DeWit:                            Hello. Steven Butala:                   Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Butala. Jill DeWit:                            I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Steven Butala:                   Today Jill and I talk about, talk with our guest Justin [inaudible 00:00:17] just like we do on every Friday about the transactions we're doing this week. Welcome, Justin. Justin:                                   Hey. How's it going. Steven Butala:                   Good. What's been going on this week? Justin:                                   Oh man. It's been a busy week. We had the live event last weekend and great turnout there. It was, y'all came and spoke at it a little bit. To resume, we had some complications with the wireless but it was great feedback. 33 people total so it's huge, good time. Steven Butala:                   Awesome. Jill DeWit:                            What was the reason that people were there? Were they, did they need to get over a hurdle? Justin:                                   Yeah. It was a big mix. We had some people that had just kind of read our E book and y'all's E book and then just didn't really know what to do next for land investing and happened to reach out as we were getting this ready. Two people that were wanting to get to talk to us, 35 year land appraiser and sub divider. We had the [inaudible 00:01:07] there, they came, father and son. Trevor, we all know Trevor. So his dad came in and they spent the morning with us and went over some case studies on appraising and the sub dividing. Justin:                                   So it was a good mix. And that was one of the things of putting that together, was the worry of, do you add value for every person there? You don't wanna speak too high over people's heads to not having enough information. But it turned out really, really good. We got a bunch of people over the analysis paralysis that they have when they get, when you're looking at all the data and you're going, "What do I do with this?" And we got them over that and how to pick counties and states really fast and kind of, one of the things that I took back from that, it was like, 'Hey, I price for margin." And we've always talked about how I shop, is just margin, margin. This is what I wanna pay for acre and this is what I'm gonna offer. I want it to sell so I don't wanna offer and I worry about the spread there. Justin:                                   So went through and did the whole country yesterday morning and for margin and priced every county in the whole country to see what margins were there. 115 counties in the country matched the margins I want and so that's something I'm starting to work through. I've mailed three counties yesterday. I've got another two on the desktop that I'm finalizing the pricing on. I'll probably get those out today or tomorrow. Steven Butala:                   So what data did you make those decisions based on? Justin:                                   Just the active market that's out there. So say if somebody wants to buy something, they wanna sell 15 hundred dollar an acre property. You're gonna offer a lot less than that, 25, 30, 35 percent of that. So the math is really easy if you take 15 hundred bucks an acre times 20 acres is 30 thousand dollars. So you just shop everything is 20 acre to 20 acre, under 30 thousand dollars by state and then it spits out property. And then you just look at the counties and say, "Okay, this county has potential." And go from there. It's super rudimentary. It's not super scientific. But it gets you a list, gives you a direction to start working in. Steven Butala:                   It'll work. Justin:                                   Yeah.

Finance Friday with Steven, Jill & Justin (LA 913) Transcript: Steven Butala:                   Steven, Justin, and Jill here. Welcome to the Land Academy Show. Entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala with Justin [inaudible]. Jill Dewit:                             And Jill DeWit. Steven Butala:                   Broadcasting from Southern, sunny California, and Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas today. Justin and I, and Jill talk about finance Friday like we do every Friday. Jill Dewit:                             Yay. Justin:                                   Yay. Steven Butala:                   Give us a quick fun highlight that makes people not want to turn off this podcast, Justin. Justin:                                   Oh, man. 40 properties priced and checked in the last 48 hours. Steven Butala:                   Wow. Justin:                                   I mean, that's why you dial into this, right? Is to know that we have these deals going on and that we're all in it to win it. Man, I'm smoked right now. Smoked. Steven Butala:                   Of the 40, how many are you ... how many you just love? Justin:                                   I green lit for this morning. I have two packages of ten, so that's kind of misleading when I say, "Hey, there's 40 properties." But, two packages of ten, I'm still pricing them out. One of them I can't find [inaudible] anywhere for it. It's essentially ten lots from an old abs tractor in a mobile home park in Oklahoma. He wants $2,000 a piece for them. I just can't find if there's meat on the bone on those or not. Then another ten is from an oil company that ... it's in a $100, a $125 area acre per range, and they have ten properties there. They want $150 an acre, so I'm just going through and checking those. Steven Butala:                   [crosstalk] All the deals I've ever done with big companies like that have turned out to be home runs for us. Justin:                                   Yeah, they were reclaimed mineral act. Texas has a ... where you get rid of the mineralize estates  state essentially sells a surface to you and then you get a 50% bonus of the minerals if you hold onto the property, in case you do anything with them. One of the newer Land Academy members brought them. It was on his first [inaudible] mailed one candidate and said, "Hey, we'll go up a little bit on our price will take this, but we've got all these other properties and so we got those back, and he's like, "What do I do?" and I said, "we got to look at them.". That's why we're here, right. Steven Butala:                   That's great. Jill Dewit:                             Exactly. Steven Butala:                   Hey, before we get in the actual show, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill Dewit:                             Bob ask, "How do you verify legal access for rural land? Do you just look at maps and see if a road goes to or through the property? Even if you see a road/trail how do you know if it has ... property has legal right to the road/trail? If there is no road/trail, I'm assuming there still could be legal access, but how would you know? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated." Steven Butala:                   Go ahead, Justin. Justin:                                   Okay. On that one, first thing is obviously look at Google Earth, good [inaudible] fact pulls up, you see there ... if there's a road, a named road tends to be a named road because it's recorded somewhere, and then from there you ask a question if there's a ... Could there be not a road and still access? Yes, it could be easement. A lot of times you'll find that in your ... in the different deeds, and a lot of the Southern states we work at you'll see the adjoining deeds will have that stuff in the bottom of it. So, they're recorded in, easements are recorded with the county. The road,

Finance Friday with Steven Butala, Jill DeWit & Justin Sliva (LA 903) Transcript: Steve:                   Steve and Jill here with Justin. Jill:                          Hello. Steve:                   Welcome to the Land Academy Show on this Friday, it's a special Friday. I think this is the first time all three of us are doing it. Jill:                          I think so. Justin:                   It is, it is. Steve:                   Here at tending Land Investment Talk, I'm Steven Jack [Butella 00:00:15], with guests, Justin [Slieva 00:00:17], and Jill [DeWitt 00:00:17], broadcasting from sunny Southern California and Dallas-Forth Worth. Today, Justin and I talk about Finance Friday with special guest, Jill, which is a little bit strange. Jill:                          Thank you. Steve:                   I can't even read it, it's so strange. Jill:                          You a little confused right now? I kind of like this. I just get to sit back and coast, Justin:                   And relax. Jill:                          And comment now and then. Yeah, this is awesome. Steve:                   I'm gonna say some revealing stuff about Jill. Jill:                          Oh, great. Justin:                   Okay. Steve:                   Jill loves to be the only girl. Like, wherever we're just with a bunch of guys, she's like, "Yeah, I like being the only girl." Jill:                          Actually, it is nice. I understand the dialog. I understand, yeah I get it. It's good. Steve:                   Before we get into the show today and I find out the deals that Justin's doing and the stuff that Jill's doing, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the Landinvestors.com online community, it's free. Jill:                          Do you want me to add? Steve:                   Sure. Jill:                          Travis asked, "Has anyone successfully used the CoreLogic API to fetch their data from RealQuest Pro instead of the GUI?" Steve:                   User interface. Jill:                          Oh, the new user interface. Got it. "What would be a quick and helpful way to get the number lots in a given area if that's possible? Faster than searching county by county on their website, any ideas? Steve:                   Yeah, so the RealQuest API is literally the backend. CoreLogic API of parcel facts. Actually, yeah. I have a lot of experience using that. This will be solved, what you're trying to accomplish when we release DataTree, access to DataTree. The searching function and the parcel checking function based on geography, even map searching it, is instantaneous. It's leaps and bounds above what we use for RealQuest. However, the real value in RealQuest is it has, I think, a superior search function for land. Actually, Justin, go ahead and comment. I know you have experience with both too. Justin:                   Yeah. DataTree is ton of better on houses. It just leaps and bounds better on houses; but, when you get into RealQuest, they're actually getting their lots down. It's way, way easier to use than RealQuest. For someone who may have less than half the price on what the data is, it's worth it for me to pay more on data in RealQuest, because it's so much easier to manipulate with land. It works out for us a lot better. Steve:                   Same exact experience here. Exactly. So, with House Academy, which is just a couple of months away from release? Jill:                          A couple months. Steve:                   The subscription to DataTree will be included much like RealQuest prop. Jill:                          Because, I personally would like to have a life. So, that's why House Academy's going to be not next week. A month or two. Justin:                   Are you missing date night? Jill:                          What's that? I don't know what that is. Justin:                   We literally have a meeting after we're done r...

Finance Friday with Steven Butala and Justin Sliva (LA 878) Transcript: Steven:                Steven Justin here. Welcome to the Land Academy show. Entertaining land and investment talk. I'm Steven Jakiela. With Justin Sliva broadcasting from Southern California. And Justin's in Dallas Ft. Worth. Justin:                   Hey, hey. How's it going today? Steven:                Justin and I introduce Finance Friday and we did it last Friday. We really actually messed it up or I messed it up. Cause it was the first episode and that's just what happens. But today I think it's for real. Justin was just telling me before the show, he's got a bunch of deals he's looking at from Land Academy members and other land investors out there. Before we get into it let's take a question Justin posted by one of the members at landinvestors.com, online community. It's free and I'll read the question and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Justin:                   Okay. Steven:                Steven Kish asks, looking to do the latest acquisitions or my latest acquisitions with a funding partner. Let me know if you're a funder or you're looking to do deals with somebody. I don't have an agreement for this. Does anyone have one that they can share, send directly to me. Also, when doing a purchase using funding partner, do you allow the funder to take title? Any answer would be appreciated. Go ahead and run with that. Justin:                   Wow, I think that's a great question. Actually, I have spoken to Steven Kish this week on a couple of properties. Yeah. So we actually looked at four his properties that he had. Some great properties. We sent him some emails back and we're still kind of figuring out the last bit of it. So normally what we do from our side is that we do take title of it because we're putting the money up. You have an investor agreement with us. It's a one page document that kind of lays out the expectations of both sides and how the splits going to be. What we're going to do with it and it's signed online. It's pretty simple, pretty easy. What property? What our expectations are and what our splits look like. Our split is fifty fifty of the prophet on the back end. We do fund all of it. We fund the closing cost and those come back out on the front side. Steven:                So, can you give us a numbers example of like oversimplification number of what a split would look like cause those are the questions I'm getting at. Justin:                   Yeah. We just had a property that was actually ten thousand dollars on a dot with closing costs that are going to be ten eight. We're expecting that property to sale for about thirty two thousand to thirty five thousand. So, to keep it simple, it would be ten thousand sales for thirty thousand. We pull the ten thousand back on the front and then we split what's left over from HUD to HUD. And that will be ten thousand each way. Yeah, it's a cool little thing we have there. Some people are like, "Ah, ten thousand bucks I paid you to borrow your money" and I'm like, well, we're not a bank. If you only made five hundred bucks, we're only splitting two hundred and fifty dollars. We're kind of riding it out with you. Steven:                Boy, my answer to that is that you are welcome to go to your bank and get funding on these deals. Justin:                   Yeah. I tried that. They laughed at me. And that's kind of where this came from. You know. We had some guys do some private funding. I did it outside our entity. My land is missing. It worked out pretty well and I was like, man, there's a lot of people that need that. Then we turned on it. Then we after the podcast last week, two weeks ago. Just coming out. They were getting ten to twelve requests a day on just information or properties being thrown at us. We've had forty properties this week sent to us. We've actually looked at seventeen of them really closely and agreed with four. Steven:                Wow.

Finance Friday with Steven Butala and Justin Sliva (LA 878) Transcript: Steven:                Steven Justin here. Welcome to the Land Academy show. Entertaining land and investment talk. I'm Steven Jakiela. With Justin Sliva broadcasting from Southern California. And Justin's in Dallas Ft. Worth. Justin:                   Hey, hey. How's it going today? Steven:                Justin and I introduce Finance Friday and we did it last Friday. We really actually messed it up or I messed it up. Cause it was the first episode and that's just what happens. But today I think it's for real. Justin was just telling me before the show, he's got a bunch of deals he's looking at from Land Academy members and other land investors out there. Before we get into it let's take a question Justin posted by one of the members at landinvestors.com, online community. It's free and I'll read the question and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Justin:                   Okay. Steven:                Steven Kish asks, looking to do the latest acquisitions or my latest acquisitions with a funding partner. Let me know if you're a funder or you're looking to do deals with somebody. I don't have an agreement for this. Does anyone have one that they can share, send directly to me. Also, when doing a purchase using funding partner, do you allow the funder to take title? Any answer would be appreciated. Go ahead and run with that. Justin:                   Wow, I think that's a great question. Actually, I have spoken to Steven Kish this week on a couple of properties. Yeah. So we actually looked at four his properties that he had. Some great properties. We sent him some emails back and we're still kind of figuring out the last bit of it. So normally what we do from our side is that we do take title of it because we're putting the money up. You have an investor agreement with us. It's a one page document that kind of lays out the expectations of both sides and how the splits going to be. What we're going to do with it and it's signed online. It's pretty simple, pretty easy. What property? What our expectations are and what our splits look like. Our split is fifty fifty of the prophet on the back end. We do fund all of it. We fund the closing cost and those come back out on the front side. Steven:                So, can you give us a numbers example of like oversimplification number of what a split would look like cause those are the questions I'm getting at. Justin:                   Yeah. We just had a property that was actually ten thousand dollars on a dot with closing costs that are going to be ten eight. We're expecting that property to sale for about thirty two thousand to thirty five thousand. So, to keep it simple, it would be ten thousand sales for thirty thousand. We pull the ten thousand back on the front and then we split what's left over from HUD to HUD. And that will be ten thousand each way. Yeah, it's a cool little thing we have there. Some people are like, "Ah, ten thousand bucks I paid you to borrow your money" and I'm like, well, we're not a bank. If you only made five hundred bucks, we're only splitting two hundred and fifty dollars. We're kind of riding it out with you. Steven:                Boy, my answer to that is that you are welcome to go to your bank and get funding on these deals. Justin:                   Yeah. I tried that. They laughed at me. And that's kind of where this came from. You know. We had some guys do some private funding. I did it outside our entity. My land is missing. It worked out pretty well and I was like, man, there's a lot of people that need that. Then we turned on it. Then we after the podcast last week, two weeks ago. Just coming out. They were getting ten to twelve requests a day on just information or properties being thrown at us. We've had forty properties this week sent to us. We've actually looked at seventeen of them really closely and agreed with four. Steven:                Wow.

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Panel: Aimee Knight Charles Max Wood (DevChat TV) Christopher Ferdinandi (Boston) Joe Eames Special Guests: Justin Meyer In this episode, the panel talks with Justin Meyer who is a co-author of DoneJS, CanJS, jQueryPP, StealJS, and DocumentJS. Justin currently works for Bitovi and is their Director of R&D. He is also a fan of basketball and Michael Jackson. The panel and Justin talk about CanJS in-detail – check it out! Show Topics: 0:58 – We had you on Episode 202. 1:14 – Chuck: Can you tell everyone who you are? 1:20 – Justin tells us his background. 1:50 – Chuck. 1:58 – Justin. 2:06 – Chuck: Can you give us an introduction to what CanJS 4.0? 2:11 – Justin: It is a JavaScript framework and is similar to Vue. It adds a very model layer, and uses Real Time very well. 2:44 – Panelist. 2:49 – Justin. 2:55 – Panelist: What is the current... 3:09 – Justin: Compatibility is very important to us. A lot of the same tools are still available. It has over 80 different repositories. Justin continues to talk about the differences/similarities between the different versions. 4:55 – Panelist: Angular, React, and Vue are dominating, so I have 2 questions. 1.) Where is the core strength of JS and its user base? 2.) What is like to be the CanJS when everyone is talking about the other programs? 5:31 – Justin: We have dealt with this for the past 10 years. Emotionally it’s not great, I wished it was more popular, but our priority is keeping our user-based happy. We’ve had big companies use it. Justin answers the second question. 8:44 – Panelist: You mentioned two things. 9:22 – Aimee: I think everything has trade-offs. I would use something because it was the right tool for the job. I wouldn’t want to make something that was “cool.” I would want to make it super accessible in a network. 10:10 – Justin: That is a great marketing angle. We are trying to remove the worst parts of the program. 10:26 – Now I am intrigued. 10:32 – Justin: You have this mutable state and you aren’t sure. At least for CanJS I don’t see that occurring too often. 10:54 – Aimee. 10:58 – Justin: Deep inheritance is definitely a problem and it can create... 11:13 – Aimee. 11:19 – Justin: We have changed strategies a lot, and I think it’s helped CanJS grow; like 60% since January. We are doing a lot of user studies now. I run Meetups, etc. That being said inheritance schemes aren’t something that people will encounter. This is something that they won’t encounter months down the road. 13:00 – Aimee. 13:05 – Panelist: I would like to dig deeper into state-management. Everyone is doing Flux, talk about that with CanJS. 13:20 – Justin: Yeah. It depends on what kind of user you are talking to. When I talk to new users off the street (people who just graduated, etc.)... If you look at React’s statistics – more than 50% doesn’t use any state management. 16:15 – Panelist: I think it’s interesting that there are people that aren’t “oh my gosh...” 16:43 – Justin: The last coolest thing I’ve done is... 18:02 – Justin continues. 18:16 – Panelist: I kind of have this belief that we as a community turn to frameworks and tools too much. From your perspective when does it make sense to turn to a tool like this or better off working with native... 18:56 – It depends on how complex your app is and our ability to work through those problems. I think that’s a generic answer, but hopefully that helps. I don’t think you really can’t live without. 19:49 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. One thing that I found is that there are many things layered into state-management. Because you mentioned performance, which is something I care about, too. At what point does the extra tooling become too heavy for the user’s experience? Where do you draw the line? 21:11 – Justin: It depends. I don’t know what the parallel is – it’s like a richer developer problem. You have too many users where you can make those fine tuned adjustments. Do whatever is going to deliver the product first and then worry about performance later? I think our things are geared towards performance by default. 22:41 – Panelist: Playing devil’s advocate, though. But isn’t there some danger in kind of suggesting that you focus on performance WHEN it’s a business issue? Maybe there is there a lack of empathy among developers. I worry that advice is hurting us. 23:53 – Justin: No matter what you can build your homepage with Angular weird monstrosity, but then when you get to the point when people are using your product – you can just use native HTML, and native methods and build that one widget and as easy and fast as possible. 24:50 – Panelist: Dealing with complexity. Now we need to do things like bundlers, and such to deal with this issue. I feel like a crotchety old man yelling because it takes forever. 25:38 – Justin: I think it depends on where you are sitting. I think that comes down to the design. If your design has a lot of complex states, then... 26:37 – Panelist: Because you care about performance... 26:54 – Advertisement 27:53 – Justin: I don’t think that the run time of CanJS is going to be a critical performance path for anybody. Is there a responsibility? This is the oldest question. It’s like saying: where do you draw the line that you need to choose success/be elected to fight the battles if you really want to win. You need someone using your product or it doesn’t really matter. Start-ups use our product because they need to get something up and in. I am going to flip this back onto you guys. 30:48 – Panelist: I think that’s fair. 31:00 – Aimee: I have a question. You got into consultancy when do you recommend using CanJS or something else? 31:15 – Justin: I always suggest people using CanJS. 31:53 – Aimee: What do these people do when their contract is over? I have used an older version of Can, and... 32:20 – Justin: Are you on Gitter? Aimee: No, I am not. 32:25 – Justin: We do offer promote job posting to help them find somebody. We try our best to help people in any way we can. 33:05 – Aimee: That’s helpful. Another question. 33:28 – Justin: DoneJS is that. It uses the full kitchen sink. That’s what DoneJS is. 33:50 – Panelist: Let’s talk about CanJS in the mark-up. Do you think it’s better now or worse than 2012? Less space or more space? 34:13 – Justin: It’s probably worse. I think the methodology that we are using: focusing on our users. We get their feedback frequently. We are listening to our users, and I think we are being smarter. 35:16 – Panelist: Is the space getting more welcoming or less? 35:31 – It depends on what framework you are. It’s very hard to compete if you are the exact same thing as... The market is so dense and there are so many ideas, so it’s getting harder and harder. What helps people break-through? Is it the technology or the framework? 36:36 – Panelist: I appreciate the richness of the field, as it exists right now. There aren’t a few things SMELT and ELM 37:10 – Justin: Elm for sure. I don’t have a lot of experience with SMELT. 37:23 – Panelist continues the talk. 37:54 – Chuck. 38:00 – Justin: I think it spreads by word-of-mouth. I used to think it was “technology” or... all that really matters is “can you deliver” and the person have a good experience. Usability is the most important to me. We will see how this turns out. I will be either right or wrong. 39:18 – Panelist: Can we talk about the long-term future of Can JS? 39:28 – Justin: We are connecting to our user-base and making them happy. If I had it my way (which I don’t anymore) I think JSX is the best template language. We have been building integrations between JSX and... I am putting out proposals where most people don’t like them. Justin continues this conversation. 44:24 – Picks! 44:28 - Advertisement Links: JavaScript jQuery React Elixir Elm Vue Polyfill.io Dinero.js Vanilla JS Toolkit CanJS’ Website CanJS’ GitHub CanJS’ Twitter JSX JSX- NPM Justin Meyer’s GitHub Justin Meyer’s Twitter Past Episode with Justin Meyer Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Cache Fly Get a Coder Job Picks: Aimee Taking a walk for creativity https://ohshitgit.com Chris PolyFill.io Dinero.js https://vanillajstoolkit.com/ Joe Pitch Meeting Solo Charles Phoenix Framework The Queens Poisoner A View From The Top Justin The Killing of H2Push Browser Contributor Days JSJ Episode 326 with Tom Dale

Just Cook It!145 Built-To-Be-Easy Recipes That Are Totally DeliciousBy Justin Chapple Suzy Chase: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book Podcast, with me, Suzy Chase.Justin: My name is Justin Chapple, and my new cookbook is called, Just Cook It!Suzy Chase: You graduated from the French Culinary Institute, then you went on to become the Deputy Test Kitchen Editor at Food and Wine Magazine, in addition to being the host of Mad Genius Tips, your James Beard nominated video series. What does a Deputy Test Kitchen Editor do? That sounds so official.Justin: Believe it or not, it's actually a little more official because I was recently promoted to Culinary Director of Food and Wine.Suzy Chase: Oh, well look at that.Justin: Basically what it means is, I get to cook, and I get to eat all the time, but most importantly I get to develop recipes and food content for everyday people, which is really what I love about my job.Suzy Chase: Basically, the home cook, me?Justin: Yeah, exactly. Basically what I do is ... I've been at Food and Wine for over eight years, and in that time I've had various roles, but the thing that I like to say is my favorite part of my job is I basically translate difficult recipes for the home cook. I've spent so many years testing recipes from famous chefs, or even chefs that really nobody knows about yet, but who would like to run recipes in Food and Wine Magazine. Basically it's been my job for so long to look at the recipes and streamline them, maybe reduce the number of ingredients, simplify the technique so that it's something that is really approachable. Then, I basically redo the recipe, still keeping in mind the chef's vision, and just make it so much easier for the home cook.Justin: When I started writing this book, I thought to myself well, how can I do something that not only has my point of view, rather than so many of the great chefs that I work with, but that teaches people all of the things that I've learned along the way? That's what I've done in, Just Cook It.Suzy Chase: It struck me by how many different types of cuisines are in this cookbook, but it's not discombobulated. It all works together. Is this how you cook at home?Justin: Yeah, it really is how I cook at home. A lot of that is just because over the years I was cooking food from so many different people, I've learned so much about different cuisines. When I started writing down and figuring out what I wanted to put in the book, I thought, okay, well what type of cuisine should it be? Should it be American? Should it be Italian? Should it be French, which is what I'm trained in? But then I thought to myself, I should actually really put all the different types of recipes and cuisines that I cook at home, because I cook very globally. That said, none of the recipes are truly authentic. They're really inspired by a region, or a type of cuisine, or a recipe that I've had at some point. Then I've reinvented it with my own perspective. I think it worked out well.Suzy Chase: I do too. I live for nostalgia, just like you. I'm dying to hear about Grandma Barbara.Justin: Oh, Grandma Barbara, she was my savior, really. She's really the first person who introduced me to home cooking. Part of how she did that was she plopped me down on sofa next to her. She'd say, we're going to watch these shows. We'd watch Yan Can Cook, and we'd watch The Two Fat Ladies, Jacques Pepin, Julia Child. This was before food television was really what it is today. This is back when most of the time when you watched cooking shows, it was on PBS. I love it. I fell in love with it. I remember as a kid I used to say, I want to be a chef. Or at that time, I probably said cook. She encouraged me. She would teach me, started out simple, she would show me how to make tuna salad. One of the most advanced things that she taught me as a kid was how to poach eggs. Of course, I think my poached eggs have come very long way now, compared to the watery mess they were when I was a kid.Justin: She just taught me so much. What I think is so amazing when I look back is, how much she taught me that she doesn't realize, because we didn't grow up with a lot of money, and we didn't have a lot of resources. We didn't have a lot of fancy kitchen equipment. Still, every day she made incredible meals that were so inspiring. Throughout the book, I've taken some of the things that I learned from her and I've made them a little more modern, maybe changed a few ingredients here and there, but really tried to achieve what I remember having as a kid.Justin: A couple of examples are that are my bacon and egg ramen, because growing up she used to take little packaged ramen noodles and she'd put them in the microwave with an egg, some scallions, and maybe a little chicken broth. It ended up becoming something that was totally different than what you think of when you think of packaged ramen. I tried to recreate that in my book. I think I did pretty well. I think she'd be happy with it.Suzy Chase: In the cookbook you wrote, don't tell anyone, but I might have been a little bit dorky as a kid. Not that I've changed much. I was freckly and quirky with all sorts of big bizarre dreams. I would read cookbooks and food magazines, watch Two Fat Ladies, and Yan Can Cook, and fantasize about becoming a chef. What advice would adult chef Justin, tell young, quirky Justin?Justin: Actually, that's a really good question. I'm glad you asked, because I recently was able to speak to this high school culinary program. They had asked me to come. It was actually my high school which since I left they drew out this incredible culinary program for high school students. They asked me to come back and speak to the kids, and I did. One of the things I told them was, don't let anyone tell you that going to trade school or vocational school is a bad thing. Because when I was growing up, you were strongly encouraged to go off to a four year university. I went off to school, yet all I really wanted to do was cook. In our industry we call ourselves career changers, because I had established myself as an adult before I decided to go to culinary school. Then one day I said, you know what? I've always wanted to cook. I still want to cook. I'm going to cook. So I went to culinary school. That was almost 10 years ago.Suzy Chase: I've talked to quite a few cookbook authors who were unfulfilled by working in a professional kitchen because the personal link to the customer was missing. Talk about your connection between the food and the people you make food for.Justin: Well, that's exactly right. When I worked in restaurants, you cook all day. But I was in fine dining, and so you're really kept in the back. You're kept in the kitchen. You don't really get to see reactions. You don't get to see if people are enjoying it. You don't get to hear the feedback of whether or not they want something different. But since I've been at Food and Wine, and I've been creating recipes for the masses, for lack of a better way of describing it, especially nowadays with social media, I get so much feedback. I hear what people want. I hear the types of foods people want to eat, and the types of food people would like to prepare at home. I change what I do based on that. It's what I love about what I do now, is that I get to interact with the people who are actually cooking my food, or the people that I'm cooking for.Justin: When I developed the list of recipes that I was going to put in the book, I really considered all the things I've heard over the years, all the favorite dishes that people like to make at home, all of the types of foods that they'd like to learn more about, which is why, if you go through the pages of Just Cook It, you'll see a lot of vegetable recipes. Because more recently, people are just obsessed with vegetables. They're obsessed with side dishes. That's one of the things I really focused on when I wrote this book, was providing all the different types of vegetables. Some of them are more involved than others, but for the most part they're all super, super easy, really approachable, and they teach you to use ingredients in fun new ways.Suzy Chase: You have a must-have equipment section in the cookbook. One of your must-haves is a cast iron pan. As a New York City apartment dweller, I wish I could grill. How do you grill indoors?Justin: It's really hard, because I also live in New York City, and I have a small apartment, so it's really hard to grill indoors, but I like to use a grill pan. Rather than getting it as hot as possible, if you just reduce the temperature just a little bit, you are better off with the fear of setting off your smoke alarm.Suzy Chase: I've heard you say hacks are one thing, and shortcuts are another. What's the difference?Justin: I get asked that question a lot, because I do have the video series through Food and Wine, which is called, Mad Genius Tips. It's all about food hacks. It's all about finding really bizarre ways of creating a shortcut. Technically a hack is a shortcut, but nowadays the term hack has really become a term for shortcut when the shortcut is really outrageous. Whereas a shortcut is just a smart, often times professional way of making something easier. Throughout my book you will find a few hacks here and there, but for the most part I wanted to include just a ton of shortcuts so that people wouldn't be intimidated, so people weren't afraid to get in the kitchen, so that you can make all the things that you perhaps thought you could never make.Justin: Just for an example, I have my new school beef bourguignon, which is really inspired by a classic beef bourguignon, which if you're not aware of what it is, it's a beef stew made with red wine, probably made famous by Julia Child. In order to make it at home you'd normally dry all your meat and then you cook it in three or four batches in your big pot. Then you have to brown all your vegetables separately. Then you have to braise your meat separately. At the end you put it all together.Justin: But really, I've streamlined the process by first, rather than cooking the meat in so many different batches, I dry it all and I spread it on a baking sheet. Then I broil it so you brown it all at once. Then I put that into the pan, into the pot with the red wine, and your aromatics, and then you braise the meat that way. Then of course rather than browning all your vegetables in different skillets, I add them all in. It's definitely a shortcut, and the recipe is definitely still delicious. I really think it's reinventing how a very classic French dish can be made at home.Suzy Chase: Another shortcut that caught my eye in, Just Cook It, is preserved lemons that can be made in 10 minutes on the stove. Describe that.Justin: I haven't yet been asked about that recipe, so I'm so glad that you did because it's really a brilliant cheater version of preserved lemons. Preserved lemons are lemons that have been salted and basically cured for upwards of a month. They have an incredible, incredible, deep very floral flavor. You don't actually use the flesh of the fruit. Some people do. They like to spread it on toast, or they like to stir it into stews. But for the most part when we talk about using preserved lemon, we talk about just using the rind, because the rind gets really soft once it's been cured. It mellows out and you can actually just eat it, but it's still intense. But, it's used as a condiment, so you can put it into vinaigrette. You can put it into aioli’s. You can put it into a stew, or into a chicken braise, or something like that.Justin: You can buy them in the store. That's definitely something that you can find pretty much at most stores nowadays, but I developed this trick for doing it at home. It's a shortcut that I think is really phenomenal. When you want to use preserved lemons in a pinch, and really what you do is you scrub the lemons and cut them into wedges. Then you cook them in a saucepan with just water, and salt. What it does is it softens the rind, much like the month long curing process would, and with the amount of salt that I use ... Which I think I use three or four tablespoons in the recipe. It gives it that kind of flavor that you would get from the salt curing process.Justin: In my opinion, it's such a smart shortcut for something that could take upwards of a month. Now you can do it at home in really 10 minutes. The best part is once you make them, because they're technically salted still, they can be in the refrigerator for six months. You can do a double or triple batch. Cook them in 10 minutes. Put them into a jar or container, like a plastic container with a lid, put it in the back of the refrigerator, and they'll be there for six months. Every time you need a little, you just take it out, you chop it up, and it's ready to go.Suzy Chase: One thing I hate to do is cut up cucumber. I can never make perfectly diced cukes. Thank you for telling us to smash our cucumber. Talk about that.Justin: That is probably one of my favorite techniques in the whole entire book. Throughout the book you'll find little things like that, like little ideas that don't require more effort. They often times require less effort, but huge reward. That's what smashing the cucumbers is for me. Because what I do is I basically put the cucumbers onto a cutting board. I like to use Persian cucumbers, because I love their really, really, really crisp texture, and the fact that they have very little seeds. You can find them pretty much everywhere now. They're the perfect snackable cucumber.Justin: I basically put it flat on a work surface. I put my knife flat on top of that, with the blade facing away from me. Then I just use my palm, and I just smash them. Then I tear them into pieces. What's so great about that is because the crushed cucumber has all these nooks and crannies now, it absorbed the dressing so much better than if you just sliced them or chopped them, and it makes it more fun to eat.Suzy Chase: That is so smart. That's totally a game changer.Justin: It's 100% a game changer. The salad that goes with it, in my book, Just Cook It, is so simple. It's an Asian inspired salad with just a couple ingredients, and then some herbs which are optional. I just think it's the perfect recipe for now.Suzy Chase: The other evening I made your recipe for shumai stew on page 100, and your peel and eat shrimp on page 191. Now, that stew-Justin: Thank you.Suzy Chase: The stew was so different and delicious. How did that recipe come about?Justin: That recipe came about because I'm a little bit of an addict when it comes to buying frozen dumplings, and frozen raviolis, and stuff like that from the store, because living in New York City, I work until 06:00, and often times the only time I have people over, it'll be on a weeknight. I tend to like shortcuts like prepared raviolis and prepared pot stickers, in this case, shumai. I had bought some shumai from a corner store. Here in New York we call them bodegas. Because I was just craving some little dumplings. I think I remember the ones that I bought, they weren't that great. I ate them, but I had some leftover in the fridge, and I said to myself, how can I use theses up? So I made a stew out of them. It was such a weird, happy accident, because what I really did was just sauteed a little aromatics, like ginger and shallots and garlic, threw in some chicken broth, added the shumai, added some greens, and it became this really hardy Asian inspired dumpling stew that now I make it all the time.Suzy Chase: Oh my God. I've never seen anything like it.Justin: This too, in my opinion, is a game changer because it really shows you a new way of using something. You go to the supermarket. They always have that section of frozen pot stickers, and frozen dumplings. They even have often times the frozen udon noodles in the same area. Those ingredients, believe it or not, you don't have to use them in the traditional way. You can reinvent the way you cook at home very easily. That's what I really wanted to show in this book, was how with just a couple smart ideas, you can change the way you cook forever. That's why I like to say this shumai stew is a game changer as well, because it teaches you something simple like putting those frozen dumplings into a soup.Justin: It's something that you'll walk away from the book with and you'll do it. You might not follow the recipe next time. You might do something else. You might say, well okay, I don't have mustard greens, or I don't have shiitake mushrooms on hand, so what can I do? Maybe you take those shumai dumplings and you do an Italian inspired soup with tomato, and basil, and with your dumplings in there. Because you're using them as a condiment. You're using them as an ingredient as opposed to making them the focal point.Suzy Chase: Here's my problem with the Trader Joe's frozen shumai, is that when I steam them, they get crunchy around the edges. I've decided to never buy those again, but I used them for the shumai stew, and in the stew the shumai stays moist. It doesn't get that weird crunch on the edges.Justin: Right. That's true for a lot of frozen ingredients. Because they get a little frostbitten, and then they start to dry out. That's a really good point. Because they're in the stew, they're going to absorb all that delicious broth and just get really nice and tender and juicy.Suzy Chase: With the peel and eat shrimp, I never knew that if you cooked them in the shell, they stayed juicy and tender. The green chili butter on the shrimp was so luxurious.Justin: That green chili butter, which I sometimes I use jalapeno, other times I use the serranos. It's such a smart secret weapon. It really is, because what I do is sometimes when I make that recipe ... So, for those of you listening, basically my peel and eat shrimp has two really, really smart tips to it. The first one is to cook your shrimps in the shell, because they stay really moist and tender, and you don't overcook them. What I like to do is take little scissors and then I just cut down the back, which not only allows you to remove the vein, but it exposes the meat so that you can spread it with this chili butter. That's the first tip.Justin: The second tip in this recipe, which is a secret weapon in my opinion, is making this green chili butter. You just mash butter with chilies. Like I said, I use jalapeno, or I use serrano, some chives, some lemon zest, and then just salt and pepper. That's it. You blend it in a bowl with a fork, and then you spread it on the meat under the shell of the shrimp. Then you chill the shrimp, and then when you roast them in the oven, they get perfectly cooked and the chili butter is just the little kick that you want, because it doesn't overwhelm the shrimp. But, it makes them even more juicy and more tender.Justin: But the reason I say that green chili butter is a secret weapon is because sometimes I make a double or quadruple batch. And then I use some for the shrimp, and then save the other for anything I want. Sometimes I toss it just on boiled noodles. Sometimes I just put a little pat of it on top of the grilled steak. Sometimes I spread it on top of a grilled, or roasted piece of skinless chicken breast. It just adds this little bit of oomph that you're looking for something that's really simple at home.Suzy Chase: I used jalapenos and I was a little worried because I was feeding my 11 year old. I'm like, just eat the shrimp. I was standing back watching him. But it doesn't absorb the heat. It just had the flavor of the jalapeno.Justin: Right. That's because to make the butter, you first seed the chilies. You seed them and then you mince them, and so because you're removing the seeds and the ribs, that's where all the heat is in the chili. You're really just using the pepper itself. The pepper, sometimes they can be hot, but I have a really smart trick for knowing whether or not a chili is going to be really spicy. We've all been there where a recipe calls for one or two peppers, and you can choose. You never know how much to use because you're not sure how hot they are unless you taste one.Justin: But, I actually learned this trick from my friend Melissa Clark who works for the New York Times. She said, what you do is you cut the jalapeno or the chili in half, and then you smell it. If it smells like a bell pepper, then it's sweeter. But if it smells really spicy then you know it's going to be a really hot chili, and you should maybe start with less before you add more. She taught me that, and I was like, why have I not ever known that? It's such a brilliant trick.Suzy Chase: Right. Well, thank you Melissa Clark.Justin: Yes. So smart. Now I do this. I wish I had known that right before I did the book, because I would have put it on every recipe that has a hot pepper in it.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Justin: Well, you can find me all over social media and on the web at, Justin Chapple, just my full name. My last name is spelled C-H-A-P-P-L-E. I really do hope that people reach out, because I'm really responsive on social media and on the internet, just because I love talking with the people that are making my recipes and eating my food. It's one of my biggest pleasures in life.Suzy Chase: Well, I will echo what Valerie Bertinelli said, this is for all of us home cooks who want to up our game in the kitchen. Thanks Justin, for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Justin: Thank you so much.Suzy Chase: Subscribe in Apple Podcasts and while you're there, please take a moment to rate and review, Cookery by the Book. You can also follow me on Instagram, @Cookerybythebook. Twitter is IamSuzyChase, and download your Kitchen Mix Tapes. music to cook by on Spotify at Cookery by the Book. Thanks for listening.

Download This Awesome Podcast: http://bit.ly/2Wx7NYn In celebration of surpassing our 100th EPISODE, we are welcoming back all of the mentors, coaches and friends who have been instrumental in our Real Estate Journey. Today we have the honor of having Justin Williams back on our show. Joining him is his amazing wife, partner and Super Woman, Tara Williams. Justin and Tara are the creators of House Flipping HQs, six-figure flipping, seven-figure flipping, and now eight-figure flipping, which Justin actually first teased on our show many moons ago on episode 9. And Tara is also a very highly sought after personal coach. GETTING STARTED: Tara: "Well, we got married and I was a third grade teacher. And I was like, “Okay, I'd graduate in college. It was going to be my career. I'll probably have some kids and then I'll probably work at some point.” And my 25k cap was like, it was cap, it was a great job and I enjoyed it. And then Justin comes into my world. And it was like we can be good in anything. “You're at service Tara.” “Well, service is good. That's a good theme.” And he's got these big ideas and he wants to start businesses, that we're going to make million dollars in the first summer and I was just like, “Okay, sounds awesome.” Justin: I was in college at the time. I never started business. My parents weren't entrepreneur or anything, so it wasn't like I really knew what I was doing. Other people have done it. Think about that. Tara: Yeah. And so, I was like, “Okay.” He's always running numbers. He's always like, “Okay, maybe these are the dish sales, these are my people and these are my offices. “That's a million dollars Tara!” I'm like, “You're right. That totally is a million dollars.” And so, we started that business. Justin: It was just a satellite dish, by the way. Tara: And it went pretty low when you're in a rut, a school of hard knocks. We made a lot of mistakes, we did a lot of good things. And then, but the goal of that, we had learned or thought we knew, that a lot of wealth is created through real estate. And so, after what? A couple of years in that business? Justin: Yeah, after having lost a lot of money and getting a lot of debt, we worked our way out of that. We got into real estate." Justin and Tara's real estate journey started when they found the masterminds and mentors and partners to help them to achieve their goals!!! HAVE YOU ALWAYS BEEN THAT COUPLE WHO HAS THE SAME MINDSET?: Justin: "Have we always been that couple?" Tara: "No. He's always been that single. My response always at the beginning was, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ahaha. Ohhhh. Haahhh. Freak out, this is scary. This is crazy.” “Don't say that. Don't talk that.” “Uhuh, we can't be that!” When we got married, he would come to our family parties and he would actually say what he was thinking, and I go, “Oh my gosh! You don't just say what you are thinking. You don't just do what you're thinking.” Justin: She's been super supportive even with all the ups and downs and my crazy shenanigans… Tara: He has a lot of ideas and he just goes for things and it's amazing. His belief is like... He always talks me into things and he'll be like, “Hey! Here's what we do hon.” And my first response is usually like, “No. No.” And then he'll talk about it for a while and I'm like, “Yeah. Oh that sounds amazing. We've got to do it.” And so, I've learned over the time, over the years, to kind of more be on the same page, more meet in the middle. I'm still usually the one who's like, “Okay, that's a bit too much. Let's tone this in here.” He's still the idea person. I'm more of the implementation to finish things through. I like to be more organized and structured and he's like fly by the seat on one's pants, talk to everybody. I go to a grocery store with a list and I'm going through the aisles looking through things. He usually goes to the grocery store and he's like, “Hey! Where's the pickles? Somebody tell me.” We navigate differently but our different personalities work well." Justin: The number one tip that I would give to couples, or even partners, or employees… we've worked up a lot of people. I have yet to find a person who is as awesome as me. I'm joking but I'm kind of serious, because obviously we act a certain way. We do things that we think are the best way to do things. Obviously we all think that we're the most awesome. You can't go around saying that because that's not cool but what I found is, it's so easy to focus on faults of other people. We focus especially in a spouse or a partner – their qualities – those are the things you think about, and let them know. A lot of times in a marriage or any relationship, people focus on the negative things. It's like when you're dating this guy you focus on the positive, and over time you focus on just the negative and those are the things that they hear, but if you really sit down and take time to think about all the amazing things that person does and you tell them, they'll feel better, you'll feel better, and you'll recognize how amazing they are, because they really are, people who are amazing. You focus on those things, which just improves the entire relationship, which then improves the business." HOW DO YOU MAKE FAMILY AND BUSINESS WORK: Tara: How do we make it all work? Well, first of all, Google Calendar is my best friend besides Justin. You have to – your life will get maxed. You're going to be maxed on the home front, you're going to be maxed on the business front. We're very involved in our church so we're going to be maxed on our church spiritual front or whatever hobbies that you got. Anyone has hobbies, and want to go on dates and – Justin: We go on a date every other week… Tara: So an amazing thing happens is when you put yourself in situations where there's more on your plate than you can handle so you get maxed. And you can either respond to it and fall apart and shrink from it or you can take the opportunity to filter your life. You have to go through it and go, “This isn't important. This isn't important. That's got to go. That's got to go,” on a daily basis. You can't to do that, not going to get to that. I'm okay with that, I'm okay with that. This is what has to happen every day. These are the things that matter to me, these are the things that have to be worked on. So, it really is an amazing opportunity to let go of some of the things that aren't really making you who you want to be. You have to learn to be more efficient with your time. You've got to learn to manage your energy more – where you have energy left to do the work and also be with your family. You got to learn to let go of a lot of emotion; it's not working for you. If you're way down and you're stressed and you're falling apart, you're not going to have anything for your family or anything for your marriage. You have to learn to work through your emotions. It's an incredible opportunity to go, here you are maxed, what are you going to get rid of? What are you going to let go of? If you don't, you're going to stay stuck where you're at or you're going to crash burn... It's this process of just continually letting go of something good for something better, so that you can keep progressing. It takes lots of little random things, simple time management, lots of conversation and lots of evolving. WORDS TO LIVE BY: “It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man or woman who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasm, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” HOW TO FIND JUSTIN AND TARA: www.HouseFlippingHQ.com So grateful to you for listening! Thank you! If you enjoyed what you've listened to please leave us a five-star review on iTunes and Like and Follow us on YouTube and FaceBook!!! Your support is AWESOME! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

For the 59th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, in-house copywriter and creator of The Headline Project, Justin Blackman, is in the house to share how writing 100 headlines a day for 100 days changed his writing and his business. (We recorded this one a couple of months ago and are just getting around to publishing it now—apologies Justin.) In this episode Justin shares: •  his path from sports and field marketer to copywriter •  what his job as an in-house copywriter involves from one day to the next •  why he started a side gig as an outlet for his creativity •  how Shel Silverstein helped launch his first side gig—try, fly or walk away •  why more copywriters should consider in-house gigs instead of freelancing •  what in-house copywriters can expect to make (yep, we asked this question) •  what made Justin decide to write 100 headlines in 100 days •  some of the “tricks” he used for brainstorming to stay prolific •  how his “creativity muscle” grew as he did the work every day •  how he found motivation from the people he said he couldn’t do it •  how the Headline Project has helped him grow his business and list Plus we asked Justin how in the world he balances his work along with his side projects with his family duties, and we asked his advice on what copywriters should do to move their own businesses forward. To hear his answers, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator PT Barnum Bill Veeck Lianna Patch Copyhackers Shel Silverstein Hippo’s Hope The Headline Project Laura Belgray Tackle Your Tagline cheatsheet Joel Klettke PrettyFlyCopy.com Justin’s Twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for episode 59, as we talk with copywriter Justin Blackman about his journey from marketing manager for companies like Red Bull and Five Hour Energy to copywriter and content manager, what it’s like as an in-house copywriter, balancing in-house work with freelance work and a family, and what he’s learned from his 100 day headline project. Kira: Justin, welcome! Justin: Hi! Kira: Thanks for being here. We’ve had a chance to get to know you better in The Copywriter Club and The Copywriter Accelerator and I think it’d be really fun to just start with your story and maybe parts of your story that we don’t know, specifically how you went from sports marketing to content creator to copywriter. So, can you share that path with us? Justin: Yeah! It’s kinda one of these paths that seemed obvious to everyone but me. I went to U Mass for sports marketing, mostly because I wanted to work for the New York Rangers, which was pretty “high school” of me but I had a good time there and learned a lot. The biggest change was that I had one professor there that talked about P.T. Barnum and Bill Veeck, who was a baseball promoter—he owned the Chicago White Sox and the Cleveland Indians—and really, focused more on big-time promotion and making the game fun. And these guys didn’t sit in the skybox, they were down in the cheap seats with the bleacher creatures and just having fun and talking to the people. So, I realized pretty quickly that as much as I love sports marketing, it was more the marketing side that I liked, and that branched me into field marketing. And field marketing is essentially a fancy way of saying “consumer sampling”. So, anytime you go somewhere and they’re handing out different promotional items—could be drinks, or Chapstick,

Justin Gray, CEO and founder at LeadMD, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner relationships and breakups, trusting data, success in the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Transcription   Man: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host, Jen Spencer, as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound, and today I am joined by Justin Gray, who is CEO and founder of LeadMD. Welcome, Justin.   Justin: Thanks for having me.   Jen: Well, it's so good to have you, and for those of you who are listening who don't know, Justin brings a lot of expertise, I'm really excited to have him on the podcast. In addition to being the CEO and founder of LeadMD, he's also a weekly columnist at Inc., the CEO and cofounder at Six Bricks, managing partner at Gray Matter Ventures, partner at Grayson Organics, and CMO and cofounder at PaidSuite. That's a lot. You're a busy, busy man.   Justin: It's a mouthful.   Jen: Yeah. I'm sure our listeners are going to be able to gain a wealth of knowledge from you. So, Justin, tell us a little bit about these companies that you work with.   Justin: Sure, I've kind of picked different organizations up along the way almost by accident, but, really, the centerpiece organization that I'm a part of is LeadMD, a digital marketing consultancy. Out of that kind of sprung the need to educate and match great marketers with employers, and that's what Six Bricks does. I've since formed a little venture, a very little venture organization called Gray Matter Ventures that I'm using to feed organizations, including Six Bricks. Then I've got some other ventures in the payments world, and then a very unprofitable labor of love known as Grayson Organics, which is actually my family's farm that we converted into organic in 2008 and have been running small field crops ever since.   Jen: That's awesome. So, what we talk about here on the show is partner programs and partner channels. And, so being a founder, a cofounder, on the executive team of these organizations, you have a lot of experience running companies and contributing to these organizations. In your experience, when do you think the best time is to start a partner channel program?   Justin: Yeah, it's kind of like that old question of when's the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago, the second best today. Obviously it does depend on the business model. The payments business that I'm a part of operates exclusively through the channel, so we started that organization with the notion that we would be managing and maintaining a completely outsourced sales channel to sell and implement our products. So, look at the model through which you want to sell, if that's going to be totally outsourced to the channel, or if that's going to be a blend.   Have a consorted channel strategy right from the beginning and tackle really difficult questions like who's going to market on behalf of the organization, are you going to do it from a corporate level, are you going to shove that down to and empower the franchisees or channel partners to do that on their own behalf? Those are decisions that are always best made right upfront, and so I think just as with anything, developing a really strong strategy from the beginning and executing towards that consistently is what we see as a recipe for growth.   Jen: Would you mind sharing why you decided to sell exclusively through channel for that organization?   Justin: Yeah, so sales is all about trust, and that particular organization, which is PaidSuite, sells integrated payment products. So we looked at the marketplace and we could've formed our own inside sales channel and tried to penetrate the market from scratch, but, instead, we chose to actually partner with software organizations and ISOs that already had existing relationships and add our suite of products to their repertoire. So, it just really allowed us to break down those trust barriers, accelerated our speed to market, and led to a good deal of success within that business. I think, had we chosen to try to kind of brute force it and spin up our own inside sales channel, it would've been a much longer time to market. It would've been a lot more investment on education and training, and just empowering that force. So, again, it was the right decision for us based on what we wanted to accomplish in the business within our first 24 months.   Jen: Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely. I think what's really cool about you and your perspective is that you have that business where you are going to market through these partners, but then with LeadMD, you are a partner of many technology organizations that I know a lot of our listeners would know about. And, so you get to see both sides of it, and that, I think, brings this other layer of expertise to you that a lot of people don't have. Most people pretty much live on one side of the fence or the other.     Justin: Right. Yeah, actually, one of our strongest verticals is channel sales. We've got organizations like Blue Cross Blue Shield, we've got a lot of med device organizations, Mobi, just organizations that are dependent upon that extra layer of support, and again that provides a lot of interesting challenges from a marketing standpoint. It presents a lot of opportunities to empower those sales channels, educate them, and, obviously, we got to keep them up-to-date on the quickly evolving world that we all live in. So, definitely a huge amount of opportunity, and then we really do see the folks that are empowering their channel partners through marketing and through education. That's a strategic advantage for our organization, absolutely.   Jen: Let's talk more about that. With all of your experience, I'm sure you've created a number of strategic alliances that have been fruitful. Maybe you've even seen some that have fell flat, whether they're partnerships that you've been a part of or that you've been supporting from an agency perspective. I'm wondering if there was any sort of recipe or repeating factor that you could recognize in a partner or in a partnership that would signal this makes sense, this is a mutually beneficial alliance.   Justin: Yeah, and that's always a really difficult prediction to have right upfront. My crystal ball is broken, so what may seem like a great partnership where everyone's aligned and we're going to go to market together and achieve this awesome amount of success is often not the case. You really need to be careful about whether this is going to be truly a value equation, as we term it, presenting equal value on both sides. And, so we've tried to get more formalized throughout the years at LeadMD as we've taken a look at the types of partners that we would potentially want to work with, the types of partnerships that have worked well in the past, and really gauge new potentials on that scale. So, we've actually kind of developed a partner evaluation framework that we leverage when we're looking at a new partner.   Having worked with over 3,000 B2B technology organizations, we have a lot of folks that want access to our customer base, but that isn't always a as I mentioned a balanced equation. We're often not getting the same amount as we're putting in there, so we've kind of tried to really hone in on what makes a successful partnership. For us, it really does come down to the fact of can we wrap services around that partner offering? Does it lead to more work, frankly, for our organization? We're a time and materials billing organization, so we need to figure out a way to build clients and provide value. And if the partner solution doesn't enable us to do so, it's a difficult partnership for us. We definitely need to be enabling our customers, and if we can't do that in the form of providing that solution and wrapping our best practices around it, it's not a good solution for us.   Jen: Right, and that's great food for thought for a lot of businesses that are creating these agency partner programs, I'm glad to have that kind of feedback to share with folks. Can you also kind of tell us when you think about the most successful partnerships that you've had, where did they come from? For people that are just starting out and just starting to build their program, is there anything we can learn from some of your most successful endeavors?   Justin: Yeah, our most successful partnership to date is obviously Marketo, and like anything successful in business, I think it comes with a healthy dose of luck. So, there is some unrepeatability around that as well, but I would say that what is a constant between all of our good relationships is we're using that solution in house. We have a relationship with them, they're aligned with our culture and we know that we align from a methodology standpoint. So, I was Marketo's 20th customer way back in 2006. I started using the platform before I was ever a partner at a payments organization, I sold my piece of that payments company, and kind of went out on my own and didn't really know what I wanted to do.   Some folks hit me up and said, "Hey, would you help us build a sales and marketing engine?" and I said, "Yeah, that sounds great, but you're going to have to implement some technologies that I know how to run. So, let's go ahead and implement salesforce.com, let's implement Marketo, and let's really get all of the text back in place to support that repeatable engine." Throughout the years, we kind of grew with Marketo and formed a really strong partnership with them to the point where they would outsource a lot of their work to us. We were participating in deal cycles with their sales reps. We were empowering them where they needed kind of that value engineering consultative approach. A lot of their sales reps just aren't marketing experts, and our folks are. So, we were willing to slot in within that sales process, provide that marketing expertise, and, of course, as a result, we were able to win business.   So, again, it was a win-win throughout that entire life cycle, and that really is why that's our flagship partnership. We've been able to repeat that with a lot of core digital marketing platforms and sales platforms that we brought on. Engagio is probably the newest member of that stable, and, again, we use the software, we see the value in it. We have the expertise in house to really ensure success within the partner orgs that we board on that platform. So, I would say that you can't discount the value of relationships. Relationships really drive everything that we do. I love the way that marketing is currently going, in kind of this quality over quantity aspect, finally. And, at the center of most of those relationships and partnerships is a really tight understanding and alignment that you just don't get when you start taking all-comers.   Jen: Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because you wrote an article fairly recently, and it was called "How to Avoid Getting Eaten Alive by Your Partner Ecosystem." I loved it. If anyone hasn't read it, I recommend when you're done listening, go check it out. It's at leadmd.com/marketplace, we'll also link to it in the show notes. In the article you say, if you want to get to the heart of how well your potential partner performs, become a client first. And, it is really great advice, and I understand from your Marketo story, even from the Engagio perspective, I understand it. Is it a hard and fast rule that you have to use that technology in order to find value? Could you see partnering with an organization if you weren't actually using that product first? Or, is that part of that evaluation criteria that you have?   Justin: I mean, it's one that we feel really strongly about. There's exceptions to every rule, obviously. I would say that there's no better way to really get an understanding of how well that partner treats its customer base, and, therefore, my customer base, than to experience that firsthand. So, we view that as something that's really important to our business. Now, we're also a sales and marketing consultancy who can use all of these products, if a product doesn't have the fit within your stack or within your go-to-market strategy, then I certainly understand that.   It is absolutely my pet peeve when we're up against a competitive deal, and we're up against an agency that doesn't use Marketo themselves. I mean, it's as simple as navigating over to their site and looking at the scripts that are contained on the site. It's like hey, great, you're up against us and a HubSpot partner. Why is the solution that they're proposing to you not good enough for them to use? That's fundamentally part of our sales strategy. We've been using this, we know the ins and outs of it, we don't support any other marketing automation platform, so we feel strongly enough about it to make it an exclusive partner of ours as well. So, we kind of put our money where our mouth is, and, eat our own dog food, drink our own champagne, make up our own bad analogies. It's core to our business. It works for us.   Jen: Yeah, it definitely makes sense. So, back to that article. You mentioned to avoid partnerships where you stand nothing to gain.   Justin: Sounds obvious, right?.   Jen: Yeah, it's obvious. Obvious, right, but, I mean, no one goes into a partnership going, "Well, I'm not going to get anything out of this. Let's jump right in," right? So, it's possible at the start of the relationship everyone's like, "This is going to be amazing," but then as the companies maybe grow, you evolve maybe a partnership becomes one-sided. Maybe you end up doing the heavy lifting without anything in return. Do you have any advice for folks on how to handle that kind of situation? Do you break up? How do you not burn a bridge? Do you hang on hoping there might be something in the long-term that will keep this alive? What advice do you have?   Justin: Yeah, I think there's obviously a couple of facets to that. So, as I mentioned, it sounds super obvious, right, but I would say that there is kind of this aspirational partnership that exists out there. I feel like this happens a lot with big logos. Like, we know they've got a ton of customers and their customers kind of look like our customers. Thinking putting out a press release and putting this logo on our site is going to add so much credibility, but we don't take that extra step to really drill into what are we going to do together? How are we going to realize this value?   I find asking those uncomfortable questions yields the best result. So, yeah, we both operate in the same space, and we've got similar customers, but what are we going to do together, explicitly, tomorrow? Are we going to market together? Are we going to create content? Are we going to do some account planning and alignment exercises? What is success going to look like in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months? How many deals are we going to have boarded? When we board a deal, what is that process going to look like? Am I going to run the majority of the implementation? Do you want to own some as the technology provider?   So, having those really difficult conversations upfront I feel helps to avoid the very difficult conversation down the road where you've been a part of that partnership, you've had the logo on your site for two years, and there's never been anything that's precipitated from that agreement, and now you've got to go back and say, "Hey, this isn't working out." I mean, breaking up is hard to do, so I would say the more that you can really drill in, get explicit, and set up a plan right from jump street, the less you will have to go back and revisit and have those uncomfortable conversations.   So, that's first and foremost. Now, if you haven't done that or things change, conditions change, the landscape looks different, and suddenly you find yourself in that bad position, I think it's best just to use real world data there. Let's look back at the pipeline we've generated together, it's weak to nonexistent. The types of customers that we've boarded maybe are no longer customers, or maybe we weren't able to make those customers happy because of the misalignment of expectations. One of our core tenets is we track everything. If I'm boarding a new partner, I'm tracking that all within CRM. What deals are we working on together? What deals did we swing and miss? What deals did we win? And, then I can pull those reports.   The Marketo partnership has not been all roses and champagne either. Marketo's gone through some pretty big market shifts. During the course of our partnership, they've gone from 20 employees to 1,500 employees. They've gone public, and then they were taken back private. There are major continental shifts that we've seen within that organization, and the org today behaves fundamentally differently than it did when we first rolled out our partnership and I wrote a contract on the back of a napkin. So, as it's progressed, the data has really enabled me to come to those partner conversations and say, "Look, this is data from 2013. Look at the data from '15. You're my largest competitor right now," which at one point Marketo was my largest competitor.   So, you have to be able to back up those shifts with actual data, and what I actually find, certainly within larger organizations, is they're often not well-positioned to gather that data themselves, or there's been so much turnover or process shift internally that they're actually using my dataset as law to describe the success of the partnership. So track everything, and that makes those conversations a little bit easier as you get into that data, and everyone can look at the same thing and agree that, yeah, this isn't working and maybe there's a solution to that, or maybe it's time to go our separate ways. But regardless, we can't blame it on emotion at that point, we want to blame it on something that's tangible, that's real.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations that you've partnered with that have benefited from the fact that you are gathering that kind of data. Unfortunately, for a lot of companies that are growing a million miles a minute it does seem sometimes like an afterthought, just this extra thing to do. But, it is extremely important, especially when you're balancing those resources and trying to figure out where to spend your time. So, do you also use that data that you might have with one partnership to help determine what success looks like in another partnership? Do you keep that internally and leverage that as a baseline?   Justin: Yeah, so we'll introduce that baseline in partnership conversations. We're potentially looking at a new partnership right now, and normally the first question out of my mouth is what does your most successful partnership look like? You can get a big feel for how that process is going to go by the data that they're able to present. If they're more on the fluffy side of, "Well, we do some activities together. They sponsor our trade show every year or our conference. We do some marketing together," I'll know that this is not as data-driven as we want it to be because I want to see sales pipeline.   I want to see the amount of revenue that you've closed together in the last 18 months. What does the joint sales cycle look like? So, absolutely, we've taken that data collection and turned it into a benchmark to which we hold other potential partnerships. The question always exists out there of there's this new company and they don't have a long track record, but we think there's a lot of potential. And, those are going to exist.   When we partnered with Engagio, they were less than 12 months old at that point, but, fortunately, they were made up by the who's who of previous Marketo employees. So, there was some faith that was included within that partnership as well, knowing that Jon Miller's not going to start an organization that's going to tank. Again, that's where you have to kind of leverage those relationships, whether it's data-driven or it's relationship-driven, insight is the key out of either one of those points.   Jen: All right. You could say that that relationship originally came out of good data as well, so that was definitely a very, very, very safe bet. Okay. So, I have one last official channel question for you, and that is, what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's really trying to breathe life back into their channel partner program? We see this a lot, we see a lot of organizations who start a program. And they probably under-resourced it, or they expected to do one thing, it does something else, and now they're kind of back at it ready to reinvest. If you could give that person, that organization, or that leader advice, what would it be?   Justin: Yeah, I really do love data, but, moreover, I love getting to the why. I don't just want to hop on a phone call or go to a meeting and ask that question. I want to see it firsthand. So, my number one piece of advice to our internal folks or anyone that's in charge of managing partner relationships is get out there and get embedded within that partner. We love to go out into bullpens and just work for a day and see what those conversations look like at that partner organization. Are they mentioning us? Are they having conversations that we could be assisting but we're not being tapped to come in and be that resource?   I love getting embedded within those environments and just seeing how their process works. Is another partner there when you show up? We've had that happen before. I had one of my competitors literally officing out of Marketo for a while, and we were like, "Wow, we really need to up our game," because they've got a level of access that we're just not taking advantage of right now. So we immediately said, "We'd love to get a cube here and park ourselves two days out of every week." And we flew someone over, and I actually eventually lit up a sales team in San Francisco to be closer to them. That insight would've never come about if I hadn't made a trip over there and just said, "I'm going to sit in your bullpen and see what these conversations sound like." Ultimately, you want to understand what does that sales pitch sound like? Where do they struggle? Where do they need help? Where can I provide some value? Simply saying, "You need to help me sell into your customer base," or, "You need to sell my services," is not going be effective.   Communicating “We have to have a solution-based message. So, when you're running up against this objection, we can help, and I heard your sales reps combat that objection a dozen times when I was out onsite.” So, I really do think that kind of that employee exchange approach is a highly valuable exercise, and, regardless of whether that has to do with partner or any other aspects of the business, I really do encourage our employees to get out there, get embedded with the partner, and understand why aren't we more successful in this partnership? I guarantee you will learn something that you would not have had you not been in that close proximity.   Jen: Absolutely. Gosh, that collaboration is unbelievable. Such good advice, and such an awesome story, too. Now, before we totally wrap this up, at the end of the podcast I always ask people some more kind of personal questions to get to know them a little bit. I make it a speed round, but I don't know how fast we end up really going, but just four questions. Are you up for it?   Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.   Jen: Okay, okay. So, first question is what is your favorite city?   Justin: My favorite city is San Francisco, California.   Jen: Me too. I'm going to ask you why. See, I do this, I make it not be speedy because I want to ask more questions.   Justin: I lived in San Francisco for two years, really for the purposes of assisting in LeadMD's growth, and, I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, so probably not the most culturally diverse epicenter in the world. It just blew my mind to be able to walk down the street and get the best food in the world, walk into a networking group and everyone's leaning forward and engaged, and participating in these conversations. It just seemed like everyone wanted to be there, and that's kind of how I describe San Francisco.   You could throw an event in Arizona, and struggle to get five people to show up. I was part of a Bulldog meet up when I was over there, and like 30, 40 people would show up with their Bulldogs every week. And, I was like, "Jesus, I can't get this level of engagement when I'm giving away free training, much less trying to get Bulldogs to show up to a meet up." So, it just seemed very intentional, and I love intentional things.   Jen: So, side note...I'm gonna help you. We're going to lobby together for, like, a high speed train between Phoenix and San Francisco.   Justin: Yeah, absolutely.   Jen: So, that'll be a pet project in our free time, Justin.   Justin: Hyperloop.   Jen: Yeah. The next question for you was going to be are you an animal lover? You mentioned the Bulldogs, so is that a yes?   Justin: I am. Yeah, I love bull breeds, and I love English Bulldogs. I have a 10-year-old English Bulldog named Chubs. It's a girl. I wanted to give her a complex early in life. When that dog's no longer around, I will absolutely be heartbroken. So, yeah, I love animals, love dogs.   Jen: All right. Question number three. Mac or PC?   Justin: Mac, a thousand times.   Jen: Yeah. And, question number four. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip. Where would it be to?   Justin: Oh, that's a really good one. I've got this weird philosophy on life that I love really new experiences in really comfortable places. So, I would actually probably go to St. Thomas. It's my favorite spot on earth, but I'd love to try to figure out some new stuff when I was down there. The last time I was down there we found this little secluded pool that is in this outcropping of rocks on one of the many islands that surround St. Thomas. So, I think it's just one of those places where you can go and find something new every single time, and definitely one of my favorite places on earth.   Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was so awesome getting a chance to talk to you about channel, about partnerships on both sides of that fence. If anyone who's listening would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?   Justin: I'm looking forward to being the only guest on this show ever that actually loves using Twitter, so you can hit me up at @jgraymatter on Twitter, or you can check us out. Our site leadmd.com. I'd like to say we give away more best practices than most agencies have. So, all of our content's there available for free, and, of course, my contact information is there as well.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you, and thank you all for joining us for The Allbound Podcast. We'll catch you next week with an all-new episode.   Justin: Thanks, Jen.   Man: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And, remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Fail Your Tail Off with Justin  Christianson of Conversion Fanatics Jack Butala:                   Justin is a self proclaimed numbers junkie and best selling author on the subject of conversion optimization. A 13 year veteran of digital marketing. He has a unique ability to find holes in marketing plans, and quickly plug them for a better return on investment. After several online successes and a successful private consulting practice, Justin along with [Manish Punjambi 00:00:22]. Is that the correct pronunciation, Justin? Justin:                                   That is, Manish Punjambi. Jack Butala:                   Excellent. Co-founded conversion phonetics. A boutique-style all in one conversion rate optimization company that serves mid to large scale clients. Effectively increasing the effectiveness of their online marketing campaigns and website conversions. Justin, before we start, I got to tell you. Jill and I, we talked about hiring you as a consultant. We figure we just have you on the show instead. Justin:                                   That works too. Jack Butala:                   Excellent. Jilly, you're with us right? Jill DeWit:                            Yep. I'm here. Jack Butala:                   First question, how did you get started in this business, and what's your background? Justin:                                   Well, I actually started out in network marketing back in 2002. Figured out the whole belly-to-belly prospecting, trying to convince my family and friends into joining my next pills, thrills, and lotions company wasn't out for me. I found internet marketing, and quickly moved into affiliate marketing. Sold a publishing company, an information marketing company back in my business partners in 2009. Kept getting asked about implementation and optimization, so I went into private consulting. Then, we decided to formalize it a couple of years ago. Jack Butala:                   Great. Jill DeWit:                            Nice. Jack Butala:                   You've just figured it all out now? There's no where else to go for you? You figured it out? Justin:                                   Yeah. I'm constantly learning. Jack Butala:                   When did you realize this profession was for you? Did the profession choose you or did you choose it? Justin:                                   It kind of chose me. Jack Butala:                   Good. Justin:                                   Figured out that I was good at a lot of the implementation things. I'm just kind of a implementer by nature. I just kind of fell where it is now, I guess. Jack Butala:                   That's great. Just for fun, what's your revenue ballpark? Justin:                                   A little over a million. Jack Butala:                   That's great. What was the worst professional experience you've had? What'd you learn? Let's say the biggest failure. Justin:                                   Biggest failure was probably taking on the wrong type of people to work with. Jill DeWit:                            Oh. Justin:                                   My lesson is choose who I get to work with. Jack Butala:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            That's cool. Have you ever had a product, or a business, or an industry that totally stumped you? Justin:                                   No. Jill DeWit:                            That's cool. Justin:                                   I really haven't. Between myself and my business partner, there isn't anything we've haven't seen or done. We're constantly evolving and learning every single day. We really haven't had anything that we haven't been able to increase the conversions on, at least in some fashion. Jack Butala:                   Mm-hmm (affirmative) Jill DeWit:                            That's cool.