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This episode is all about the emotional side of investing during market turmoil, especially the conversations (or arguments) happening at kitchen tables right now.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Speaker 1: This episode is all about the emotional side of investing during market turmoil, especially the conversations that might be happening around kitchen tables all across America right now. Let's get into it this week here on Retirement Planning Redefined.   Welcome into the podcast, where we're going to talk about talking to your spouse or loved one about market crashes and fears. If you're sitting around the dinner table and stressing out about the stuff we've been seeing over the past few weeks, it's been a volatile March and April. It's maybe worthwhile to have a chat about how do you go about that, because obviously when it comes to dealing with money and talking about money, that's sometimes where families and relationships struggle. This week, the guys are going to help us break it down from things they say from their clients, maybe their own personal perspective and mine as well, as we have this conversation.   What's going on, John? How are you doing, buddy?   John: Doing good. Just found an electric fireplace.   Speaker 1: Oh, nice, nice.   John: For my remodel. I can't wait to have it installed.   Speaker 1: There you go. Yeah, we got one of those as well when we did ours. Nice, very good. Works well. My wife's always got that thing on. I'm like, "Really?"   John: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Even when it's warm. I'm like, "You're killing me." Well, hey, there you go. Couples and spouses already over the fireplace, we haven't even got to the money yet.   What about you, Nick? How are you doing, buddy?   Nick: Good, good. Staying busy.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let's dive into this since you're about to have this situation start to prop up because you've got some nuptials coming soon. Again, congratulations on that.   I got a few questions I just want to run through. Feel free to drop in some real life scenarios that you've seen from your own life, or clients, or whatever you guys want to share when it comes to this. It's an important question, because I so many advisors like yourselves say, "Hey, when you're building a retirement plan and a strategy, make sure both people are involved so that you understand what you've got and what you're into." Even if it's not your thing, that way everybody just feels like they're on solid ground when it comes to knowing what's happening.   How do you deal with that? As a married couple or in a relationship, how do you deal with market downturns? Because when you start seeing your accounts go down, you start to freak out a little bit. Is it a good idea to talk about that, guys? Or do you think that should be saved for talking, Nick, like in front of you guys, where you're there as a mediator kind of thing?   Nick: I think the number one most important part is that people actually start to have the conversation.   Speaker 1: Just talk, right?   Nick: Yeah, just talk. There's a reason that, I would say from the standpoint of therapy, 50% of the stress probably comes from guidance and 50% just comes from getting it out kind of thing.   Speaker 1: Right.   Nick: The act of literally just talking and trying to get on the same page I think tends to be helpful. The reality is most couples with many things, the way that they approach a decision, the way that they feel about something that's happening tends to be different. It's pretty rare that they're both the same.   Speaker 1: Right.   Nick: John and I talking about that quite a bit with clients, where many of our clients, we'll work as a team. In a lot of ways, we feel like it benefits us because we have similarities and differences just like couples do. Often times, we can pick up on more information because of that.   I think having the conversation to get a baseline of how they're feeling about the direction of things. Then, really, I do think it is important to reach out to their advisor and get an idea, a better idea of what's going on. Because the other part about that is that the phase of life that they're in really has a significant impact on how much they could be impacted. We've got clients that are working and just saving, they're often times feeling less concern. Those that are approaching retirement or very early on in retirement, they're probably the ones that are the most freaked out. Those that have been retired for a little bit longer have gotten a better feeling of it and I would say are a little bit more stable when it comes to this sort of thing. Just really getting on the same page is important.   Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. John, to expand on that, what's each person's natural reaction to financial stress? The two top things that couples fight about is money and in the bedroom, and love. Do you fight, do you flight, freeze, freak out? When you start seeing your accounts drop, are you thinking, "Hey, my dream is fading away?" How do you react to that can go a long way into how you deal with that financial stress.   John: Everyone's personality is different. Everything you just listed there, Nick and I have seen it across the board.   Speaker 1: Oh, sure. Yeah.   John: I definitely say if someone's reaction is to fight over something, it's definitely a good time to do a check with your advisor to avoid those unnecessary fights about it. Everyone reacts differently. It's good to have conversations. Back to what we were saying, just having the plan reflect how is this actually affecting your situation. Once you see that, that might actually take some of the stress away to help you make better decisions.   Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because to that point, Nick, number three is that no matter what you do, whether you fight, flight, freeze, or freak out, is it because you don't know the longterm plan or you're not on the same page? Typically, the panic comes in when you don't realize what's going on, especially if one person is leading the financial charge and the other one is just along for the ride because it's not their thing or they don't care about paying that much attention to it. But then, in these times of turmoil, now they want to pay attention and now they're freaking out because they don't really understand the plan or they don't know it at all. That's the importance of both people working together.   Nick: For sure. I think over time, we realized that when people are uncertain or they don't understand something, that leads to anxiety. And the anxiety builds up and then blows, and that leads to the freak-out factor or fighting between each other, or things like that. We've got clients who have told me one spouse can tell when the other spouse is really freaking out. They're not the personality to say something, but they become ornery or short.   Speaker 1: Right.   Nick: It's like, "Okay, I knew it was time to reach out so that we can have a conversation about this."   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: That absolutely is something that makes a lot of sense. Having that plan to be your guide and stay on path is super important.   One of the things that we tend to tell clients over time is, and this is really playing out, where the reality is there's a lot of people, for the last 10-plus years, that have been very heavily invested in the Magnificent Seven, or heavy in tech, and all that kind of thing. It's been a safe haven and out-performed almost everything and pulled the market. Now we've got a little bit of a cycling out of that and it seems like things are shifting a little bit more to diversification is important, that sort of thing.   One of the things that we'll tend to say to clients, at all times, you should have something in your strategy that you're very happy about having and something that maybe you're not so happy about having. When markets are going really good, you hate that maybe you've got six, 12 months in cash that's not getting a ton of return. But when markets are going bad, you're really, really happy that you have that six to 12 months in cash for different things. All those things go together to try to help stay on the same page and go back to your plan.   Speaker 1: Yeah. With headlines and internet stuff, and everything like that, it's really easy to get sucked into reactionary moments, John. How do you balance facts with feelings? That's one of the biggest things that we're dealing with. Money and feelings go hand-in-hand. How do you balance the facts in? If you're a couple at home, any thoughts or advice for folks? I know we talked a couple of weeks ago about not doom-scrolling and turning the TV off.   John: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Aside from that, what's some other ways to maybe balance the facts?   John: Yeah. I think it's ultimately looking at your situation, not just what a particular stock or index is doing that day. Like I said, last week, when someone was a little nervous and when we looked at their year-to-date return it was like, "Oh, that's not bad." It's like, "No, it's not bad. This doesn't affect you whatsoever, you can go ahead and travel." It's like, "All right, good to know that."   I think it's always going back to your personal situation, and how does it affect you, and how can you adapt. And in some situations, how can you take advantage of what's happening currently? Is there something you could do that would actually be beneficial to your overall over the next two or three years, or overall throughout your whole strategy?   Speaker 1: Good point. Yeah, definitely. You've got to get some facts in this situation because again, so many people just see the headlines, they run with it. They assume that's what's happening to them, and it may not be at all.   I guess the final piece here is, Nick, does that play back to have you talked with one another about your-   Nick: Sorry to cut you off.   Speaker 1: No, that's fine.   Nick: I'll give you one example of this. This was what the news will do to people. I have one client who's very risk averse and is concerned about the markets. It was good she checked in because she was getting pretty upset over what was happening. When we checked in it was, "Hey, everything you have is in fixed income." It was, "There's really not much risk." She was like, "Oh, it's just this news, I'm watching it, and it's all this stuff." It's like, "No, you're in really good shape. Nothing is affected." But again, it's just a matter of knowing the facts for her situation. Not everyone's like, obviously.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: She's extremely risk averse. It was good that she's in the right asset allocation based on her risk tolerance, because she wouldn't be able to handle what's happening right now.   Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hilarious. I'm glad that she got that sorted out too, so that she didn't have to stress. Nick, I was getting ready to ask you that. Is it time for you and your loved one, you and your spouse, to talk about your risk tolerance? Do you assume you're on the same page, are you on the same page? Or does your advisor even know what your risk tolerance is? Have you gone through and updated that stuff and had those pulse checks?   Nick: Yeah, it's really interesting because we'll have clients, for example, clients that are still working. Depending upon their personalities, I have a lot of clients that, if it's a couple, one person picks their own 401K investments, the other person picks their own 401K investments. Sometimes they might compare or look, and they'll pick their investments based upon ... These are, often times, people that, when they come in before they become clients, pick based upon what their own set of fact that they're using and all that sort of thing. When they shift to the phase of, okay, maybe retire, and now they're making more decisions together and trying to get on the same page.   Where we'll literally have situations where it's like, okay, say it's a couple, he's got his rollover into an IRA, she's got her rollover into an IRA, and then they have a joint account. The joint account's invested completely differently than either of the IRAs because they have to come to an agreement on it. It's interesting, the dynamics of how that works and how they slowly have to get on the same page often times. But having that conversation, those I would say that are more advanced at having those conversations earlier on, definitely end up in a better position.   Speaker 1: Yeah. At the end of the day, guys, it all comes down to conversations and chatting with one another, and being honest, about what you need to do. Especially with you and your loved one, if you're thinking that your retirement or your financial dreams are dissipating, well, A, are you on the same page with each other? And B, are you on the same page with your advisor and do they know that? It's important to sit down, have a conversation, have a chat. Reach out to your advisor, especially in these times.   I saw a line the other day, I don't know if I'll remember it exactly what it is. It was like, "Advisors, you're really earning your keep in times like these. This is when discipline and consistency beats brilliance." You're not trying to time the market and things of that nature, because there's always going to be these ups and downs. It's having a good, consistent plan to help you get to and through all kinds of different environments that are going to happen if you're retired 20, 25, 30, 35 years.   Get yourself a plan, get yourself a strategy. Reach out to John and Nick today at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com, to get started on your situation or to tweak your situation and dive into that process with the guys. You can reach out to them at 813-286-7776. Or again, find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to us on the podcast on Apple or Spotify, or whatever platform you like using. We'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick.

The headlines are loud, the markets are messy, and your gut might be telling you to do something — anything — right now. But what should you actually do when your portfolio takes a hit?   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Marc: The headlines are loud, the markets are messy, and your gut might be telling you to do something, anything. So what should you actually do when market downturns happen? Let's get into it this week here on ‎Retirement Planning - Redefined.   Welcome onto the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John, Nick, and myself as we talk investing, finance, and retirement. And, guys, with all the volatility and stuff happening, I thought it'd be a good idea to maybe address some of this stuff. And we've got four key questions maybe to ask ourselves when we're going through some of this volatility and let you guys give some people insights on what you're seeing and what your thoughts are when it comes to this kind of stuff. So welcome on this week, John. How you doing, buddy?   John: I'm doing all right.   Marc: Yeah? A little busy?   John: Just getting ready to start a kitchen remodel, which is bringing its own gut check, but doing all right.   Marc: That is true. Very true. And Nick, how are you doing, my friend?   Nick: Good, good. Staying busy. Obviously a little chaotic right now, but knee-deep in wedding planning. So that's fun.   Marc: So let me ask you guys, before we get into this, when we're seeing this kind of volatility, do you get many calls? I've talked with all kinds of advisors and most of them say a couple, a couple panicked people, but for the most part, their clients have a strategy and a plan in place and it makes it a little easier to handle when there's volatile times like this. Is that kind of the same for you, or what are you seeing out there?   John: Yeah, I'd agree with that. As we mentioned quite a bit in our last podcast, our last sessions, our practice is generally planning based. So a lot of times people are comfortable with where they are, and we do a good job of reinforcing here's where you are, here's your asset allocation, here's how we structure things for a downturn or some volatility. So I think we do a really good job of making sure people are in the right asset allocation, and not only that, but structuring their assets where when they are using their funds for retirement, we have a plan in place to draw on specific accounts when we are expecting this type of volatility.   Marc: Makes sense. Yeah. Gotcha. Well, as you mentioned, gut check as that kind of goes. So let's jump in and do these four items here. And that's the first one. Nick, I'll let you start if you want to. So when is the last time you checked your strategy? When's the last time you checked your plan? I hear people saying, "Oh, the market's down year-to-date, the S&P's down 13%." Well, are you down that or are you only down maybe two or three because you hopefully were properly diversified, right? So when's the last time you checked in on your plan and do you need that gut check? What's your thoughts?   Nick: Yeah, so we try to make sure we're updating plans. We'll go over general numbers each year. And then one thing that we focused quite a bit on last year with clients was updating expenses. With having the inflation like we did for a while, the expenses are obviously a huge driver for clients, and so a lot of our clients are updated. And I know John kind of touched on how many are reaching out. And I would say obviously compared to the clients that we have, there are some that do. And I think the good part about the planning, those that had the planning, we're just reinforcing and reviewing what we've discussed in the past.   I had a couple conversations earlier today with similar thoughts and sentiments, and even though most clients know that they have some sort of mix between stocks and bonds, they rarely think about the bond portion not being as volatile. And so that's something that even where in our minds it might kind of feel basic, these little things, and just kind of talking through and reminding clients about what they actually have, why they're positioned the way that they're positioned and why we did the plan. It's also a reminder for us. We've had some clients that maybe six months, 12 months ago, like, "Hey, should we get more aggressive," et cetera, et cetera. And we kind of emphasized that we've had a really good run for a really long time, and at a certain point there's going to be some sort of pullback. And so I think those clients that both from a being too conservative or being too aggressive standpoint are kind of happy that they have a plan.   Marc: Gotcha. Okay. And so John, that would probably lead to the second step, which is if you are doing that gut check and you do feel like there's some things you need to do, where are you at with your risk? As I mentioned a second ago, people see the headlines and it makes them panic. It makes them worry, it makes us easily agitated. "Oh, it's down 13%." But if you're not taking 100% risk, you're probably not down 13 whole percent, right? So it's about having that risk tolerance adjusted as well.   John: Yeah, and like Nick mentioned, I just had a scenario where this actually came up. They're watching the news and it's doom and gloom. And I'll tell you, I put it on for a little bit sometimes and it's like, all right, if you're watching this all day, I could see where people are panicking. But when we did their review, the person was down minimal year to date, and they're like, "Oh, that's it?" And it's just like, "Yeah, you're doing all right." And then when you reference the plan and you actually show them, "Hey, based on what just happened this last week, you're still in good shape and here's a strategy if this volatility continues, this is how we're going to handle it if you're withdrawing from the portfolio."   And then I will say that what Nick said there as well of, people, when things look good, it's like, "Hey, should I get more aggressive so I can earn more?" And it's really important just to stay the course because you do have these pullbacks and when you do get more aggressive and let's say all of a sudden the market pulls back like we're in the middle of right now and you can't handle that risk, that's when you jump ship and then all of a sudden there could be some news that comes out. Literally there could be one bit of news, especially in what we're dealing with right now and the market could just completely do a 360 and just be positive quite a bit.   Marc: Yeah. At the time we're taping this, we saw that to open up today. It went up about 4% in the first half of the day, and then it started to cool back off. So there's still a lot of things flowing back and forth, Nick, and that again leads back to strategy, right? So that's the third piece of this conversation. Do you have a strategy and are there some things that we should look at, try to find the positives or the silver linings of downturns? What are some things we could maybe, some smart moves we could be looking at?   Nick: Yeah, just even before we get into that, I wanted to touch on John's last point, just from the standpoint of part of the conversation that we've been having with people is that the volatility in the markets, both good and bad, are so much quicker than they were years ago. There's a lot of people that are used to prolonged just slow bleed downturns. And where from hour to hour, day to day, you can have a correction and then claw half of it back within a few days. And just kind of shifting out during that period of time can be pretty deadly for a portfolio.   But from the standpoint of what can be done now or what could make sense now with what you alluded to, dependent upon, it is a good time to kind of do that check on overall risk, potentially integrating in some rebalancing of the portfolio. We try to have clients have some cash on the sidelines no matter what. And it could be a decent time to average in some of that money if they're looking to reinvest.   For those that are still working, I think the emphasis that we put on is buying at a discount when you're averaging in every month and that sort of thing. And then even from the perspective of, and it's something that we are reviewing, tax loss harvesting in taxable investment accounts can be something that makes sense. I will say that unless there's, so many people's positions are up or vary in the green that it can be a little hard even still with this pullback to get some losses and offset some gains and that sort of thing. But we can also take advantage of some of the losses to offset future gains as well. So those are all things that we're reviewing.   Marc: Yeah. And a lot of people are taught, have been wanting to do Roth conversions, for example, right? Well, I mean, kind of silver lining when your accounts are down a little bit in a 401. Maybe you're doing some conversions over to Roth and you're paying lower taxes because the balances are down. And then when the market comes back, because it tends to do, as long as your plan calls for it, then you're gaining that money back tax-free. So different kinds of silver linings. You have to work with a professional, you have to work with an advisor to find your way through some of these tougher times. And so that brings us to the final point, which is unhelpful behaviors, right? So what are some things, guys, we need to stop doing right now if we're getting stressed out? John, you kind of hit it perfectly on the head, said you watched it for half an hour or an hour and it's like, "Yeah, no wonder people are getting down, right?"   John: Yeah, it's definitely doom and gloom out there. So I would say whatever station you're watching the last couple of weeks, it's definitely everything's negative.   Marc: And that's their job. We have to be realistic about that. That's all they're going... They're not going to talk about the positives very often, right? They're looking for the eyeballs from the panic, right?   John: Yeah, hundred percent. I think negative news typically rates better. So that's why you continually see the negative news drip on everybody. But back to one thing you mentioned there, Marc, about the Roth conversions. I just want to point out that is a great strategy when the market dips down, if you're currently implementing a Roth conversion strategy. It is typically a good time to do it when we're having a pullback.   Trying to time it perfectly is obviously going to be difficult to do, but you just try to do your best with that. But when you are converting, just want to make it clear to anyone listening, you typically want to, when you're converting for the strategy of a lower balance and paying lower taxes on the specific shares, you want to do a Roth conversion, that's you keep your shares. So you're doing kind of a transfer of shares over to the Roth versus cashing out and sending the cash over and then rebuying it. So just be careful. If you're working with an advisor, just understand, hey, if we're doing a Roth conversion, are you cashing it out? Are you transferring over the shares? Because we feel it's best to transfer over the shares so that we don't have to rebuy them.   Marc: Yeah. No, definitely. I just was thinking that that was another little piece, so thank you for kind of taking it a little deeper, if that's part of your current strategy. So yeah, turning off the news is certainly a helpful behavior. What else, Nick, you got anything else that you'd like to chime in on that topic?   Nick: Yeah, as somebody that has sometimes a tendency to doom scroll a little bit and try to suck in as much information and try to be able to understand different points of view and all that kind of stuff, it is important to take a break. Something as simple as getting outside, going for a walk, having a conversation. One of the things we try to emphasize with our clients is that if you're getting to that point where severe high level anxiety, maybe concerned about starting to make poor decisions or overreact to anything, is just reach out. Usually the feedback that we get when we just have a conversation with somebody is that able to give perspective. And realistically, what happened yesterday in the markets, which we had a fake post about a change to the tariffs and the market swung like 7 or 8% in five minutes and all this other stuff, really kind of emphasizes the fact that volatility is different than it used to be and overreacting can be something that really hurts you and your overall position.   Marc: That's a great point, right? I mean, we're certainly, the doom scrolling, the second by second feedback, you have to have a strategy, right? And our own worst enemy is ourself. We tend to jump out and do things and then we lock in those losses. So again, before you take any action on something you hear from even our conversation or any other thing that you hear that they're financially based, you should always run that past a financial professional as it relates to your specific unique situation, as the guys pointed out numerous times today in the show.   So if you need some help with that, stop by on the website or give them a call and set up a time to chat, pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com, or call 813-286-7776. Guys, thanks for hanging out and breaking it down a little bit. Hopefully people keep their heads and we'll see how this plays out. It could be short-lived, it could be a little longer term. So get a strategy. At the end of the day, that's what's important. So the guys can help you with retirement planning redefined. We'll see you next time here on the podcast.

Ever wonder what other people talk about with their financial advisors? A new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors reveals the biggest concerns, challenges, and financial goals their clients are facing today. From retirement planning to healthcare costs to working longer than expected, we're breaking down the key takeaways and how they compare to what we see in our own client conversations.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Marc: Ever wonder what people are talking about with their financial advisors? Well this week on the show we're going to discuss a new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors revealing the biggest concerns, challenges, and financial goals that their clients are facing. We'll see how that compares with what the guys see here on the show. Let's get into it this week on Retirement Planning - Redefined.   Welcome to the podcast, everybody. Thanks for hanging out with John and Nick and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And guys, we're going to share this survey. We'll put a link into the show descriptions as well for folks that want to check it out, but want to run some of this information past you guys and see does that correlate with what you're seeing, do you think it's accurate, not accurate, and just spitball and talk a little bit about some of the stuff out here.   The survey was done of nearly 400 experienced advisors all with around 20 years or more of a business, practicing business, so interesting. They didn't really say exactly the age bracket of all the people they were talking to, so there could be some folks that are not necessarily retirement age. They could be younger as well as older, but I want to run down some of this stuff and just get your guys' take on it.   How you doing this week, John?   John: I'm doing well. Daylight savings is messing with me a little bit, but I'm adjusting pretty well. And one of my kids, actually both my kids, they're testing for an honor belt in karate.   Marc: Oh, nice.   John: So they're excited.   Marc: They're going to whoop on you. Be careful.   John: It's funny you say that. They're running around the house kicking me now. It's like I wanted to get them into some self-defense stuff, but now I'm getting kicked.   Marc: So now you got to walk around with some pads on.   John: Pretty much.   Marc: Make sure you're not getting beat up too much. Very cool. Well watch the shins, man. They'll get you in the shins.   Nick, how you doing, buddy?   Nick: Good. We're staying busy.   Marc: He's like, "Good." Well, let's break this down a little bit, guys.   John: That's the sound of a guy that's in the middle of planning a wedding.   Marc: Right? That's what I was just thinking. He's like, "I got to make another decision. I don't want to make a decision." Let's jump into this and we'll see if we can make this easy for you this week, Nick.   So seeking out a financial advisor, the first part of this survey, advisors in the survey said 52% of their clients have sought out financial advisors to help with the retirement planning. About 34% surveyed were just looking for somebody to build wealth with. And in an era where everybody can call themselves a financial advisor, does that strike you as interesting? What do you guys think about that, 52% looking for retirement planning versus 34 just looking for some sort of wealth building, whoever wants to start?   John: Yeah, those numbers seem accurate to me. Well, I guess I'm a little surprised it's not more looking for help with retirement planning.   Marc: Okay.   John: I'd say the majority of our clients are retirement planning based, "Hey, I want to make sure my plan's good. I want to make sure I don't outlive my money." As far as building wealth, that does come up quite a bit, and Nick will jump in as well, but I'd say most of our clients are looking for retirement planning and just making sure they're on track and making sure that they're making the right decisions.   Marc: And it's two different mindsets too, right, Nick? I mean, so you need to decide what it is that you're looking for. I mean, not to say that you couldn't work with a retirement planner who also can help you with some of the wealth building, but it is a different skillset as well. If you're just looking for someone only to help you build the wealth, that's a little bit easier, I would think.   Nick: Yeah, and I would almost, if I were to say maybe put that in other words, we talk with people at the three phases of money as far as their life goes are accumulation or growth, distribution, taking their money in retirement and then transfer when they leave money. And so I would say from that initial, that wealth building, that's most likely accumulation focused. And because so many people accumulate their money while working in their 401(k)s and that kind of thing, I think it tends to be a little bit of a different conversation and it's those people that as you get closer to retirement. So without having ages, it does make it, the numbers are interesting, and I agree with John, I would've thought maybe it'd be a little bit higher from the standpoint of the retirement planning side, but-   Marc: Well, I mean, if you're just trying to grow the money, again the market's been, obviously we haven't had a prolonged downturn, and it's been choppy here lately, but we haven't had a prolonged downturn since '08, '09, so there's a lot of information out there about saying it's a little bit easier to build the wealth. But the preservation stage, which retirement is a little bit more complicated. There's more things going on than just the portfolio.   But with that in mind, check this out. Over half of the survey of financial advisors said the average client asset minimum was 760,000. I found that to be good. I know different areas are going to be more or less depending on the economic state of the area, but when you often hear that people aren't doing a very good job saving for their retirement future, three quarters of a million dollars is not bad.   Nick: It's definitely interesting to see the numbers and how they've changed over the last five to seven years where, and you mentioned it earlier where we've had a long prolonged period of time with the market going up, and so there's quite a bit of people meeting with us or ending up with more money than they had thought that they would or that sort of thing. There's a little bit of concern with that that only lasts for so long and that there's some correction and all that kind of stuff to happen. But absolutely, definitely that puts most people in the wheelhouse of where they need to be to have a successful retirement.   Marc: I mean, it's not bad. John, do you guys have a minimum? I mean, I know different advisor firms do different things. You can't service everybody. There's only so many hours in a day. So you'll hear something where somebody says, "Well, we work with people with 250,000 who have saved or more in assets," or some or a million or whatever. Do you guys have a breakdown?   Nick: We don't have a set minimum that we advertise or market.   Marc: Okay.   Nick: I would say that the majority of the people that meet with us tend to have what many institutions have as their minimum. So in other words, a lot of places will tell people, like you referred to that, they're looking to work with clients that have 250,000 or more just from an efficiency standpoint of trying to make sure that they can service their clients and that sort of thing, and so we end up above that with most clients. But the reality is, is that the conversations that we have with clients are really we don't keep that rule set in stone because for us, it's more of a relationship-based.   Marc: Individually based kind of thing? Okay.   Nick: Yeah, and really it's something we're looking for people that are serious about planning. I would say if you were to draw a line between what we were talking about earlier where a growth or retirement planning in a more broadly focused strategy, so they're focused on that. They're serious about it. We reference like, "Hey, we don't want to convince you that you needed an advisor. We want you to know that you need one and we want to interview for the job," kind of concept.   Marc: No, that makes sense because I mean if you're giving suggestions and someone's not willing to take them, you're just wasting each other's time versus... Yeah.   Nick: Exactly, and we found that that'll waste more time than in theory working with somebody that maybe isn't where they're going to be yet. And also-   Marc: It needs to be a reciprocal relationship.   Nick: For sure. Communication's super important for us because we've also found that we've had people come in that maybe are under that 250, but their parents are wealthy and they ended up being a teacher or something that maybe didn't allow them to save as much money as some sorts of jobs, and they're going to inherit money and they need assistance that way. So I'd say we're pretty comfortable with our process and how we approach that sort of thing and really look for it on a relationship basis, communication basis, and how we all get along.   Marc: That makes sense. And it's got to be a two-way street. I mean, when we do the podcast, it's not designed to turn every listener into a client if they're not already a client, but it is designed to say, "Hey, if it's the right relationship field going both ways, then we're happy to help if we can." That's pretty cool. So that's a good way of looking at that.   John, check out some of these top concerns. Let me know what you think here. So no surprise, number one, outliving their assets, 38% of the people surveyed. That's pretty much always number one, right? Outliving your money.   John: Yeah.   Marc: 31%, generating reliable income streams, a pretty high number as well.   John: Yes.   Marc: Okay. Then it drops off to a pretty stark, down to 12% for a future stock market crash. Now with some context here, this survey was completed at the end of last year, so it was December of '24. Do you think that number's gone up recently?   John: I would willing to bet that number's gone up. I think we were talking about the market, the last real big downturn was '08, and I think in the last 10 years, we've only had two years of the market being down, the S&P 500. I think it was, what, '22 and 2014, I believe.   Nick: I'd almost say that's a leading indicator that there's going to be, it's one of those things. Once people get that comfortable, that's usually when it comes.   Marc: I mean, it's been a while, right? So because nobody's worried about it whenever it's riding high. We only seem to worry about it whenever we're in the middle of it falling a little bit. But the one that really surprises me is all the way down to 8% for healthcare costs. Now if you guys are focused more on helping people with retirement planning and strategies, that to me, again depending on the ages of the people that answered this survey, healthcare costs at 8% seems awfully low because it's pretty costly, and we need to be having those conversations when we're, especially as we're getting older.   John: Yeah, for sure. This one, it is very important, and I think it's same thing we're talking about the stock market where it's been doing well. And when you're healthy-   Marc: It's great.   John: ...you think you're going to be healthy for a long time.   Marc: You don't think about it. Right, exactly.   John: You don't think about it all. It's back of your mind. I'll tell you where we see a lot of people concerned about it is if they had to do some care for their parents. Then it becomes top of mind of like, "Hey, this was a lot that I just went through." And taking care of them or seeing, whatever, if they have to go into a facility, and then in turn that's where we see the most of our clients that are concerned about healthcare costs is if they had to take care of a loved one.   Marc: Nick, according to the survey on that topic, advisors that were surveyed in this, were saying that clients should be more concerned about healthcare costs at around 54% unanticipated healthcare cost. Will you agree with that as well? Because I mean, obviously it comes out of the blue, it can totally derail the whole strategy.   Nick: Yeah, I think part of that is, from an advisor perspective, the whole concept of long-term care, obviously I'd say many advisors have a good grasp on long-term care, but I think it's become increasingly difficult for advisors to help clients plan for that with insurance or certain products that are out there. If we went back 10 years and from, let's just call it 2015 back through maybe 2005, that was the golden era per se for clients to be able to secure a reasonably priced policy from a long-term care perspective. So I think maybe that ties into the concern that advisors have is that at the end of the day it's a really expensive problem that clients can have, but it's also an expensive solution that a lot of clients are reticent to spend on something that may not be an issue, especially in a state like Florida where all of the insurance, people have serious insurance fatigue here.   Marc: Oh, I'm sure.   Nick: So it's a funny thing. The one time I actually answered a soliciting call earlier this morning was from State Farm calling me to, and they asked me if they could shop my car insurance for me, and I said, "Sure, let's try it." And sure enough, it was going to be $1,400 a year more than what I'm currently paying.   Marc: Thanks for the help.   Nick: And she laughed too, and she's like, "Well, can I call you in six months?" I was like, "You can try."   Marc: You can try.   Nick: I don't think you guys are going to come down that much. And so it's just crazy with what people are paying here. And so I think, long story short, I think that really ties into it as well for advisors.   Marc: And I'll hit you with this last one, John. I'll let you start and then I'll let Nick jump in if he wants to. And again, this survey was completed at the end of last year, so you can't take the current market downturn into this conversation. But according to the survey, an average of 63% of clients age 55 or older intended to work to 65 and beyond. 63% of people wanted to continue working up to 65 or beyond, yet only 30% of those clients are actually still doing it. So I guess my question is, does this surprise you that people want to keep working longer? And if so, what are some of the main reasons why you guys are seeing people want to work into their older ages?   John: It doesn't surprise me. I think with the shift really since COVID of being able to work remote, I've seen a lot of people that sit there now thinking like, hey, I work from home. I can travel still and log in. And it's given them a comfort of just saying, yeah, I'm making good money. I can continue to do this.   Marc: Feather than nest some more, right?   John: Yeah, so it's just building up the nest egg and allows them maybe to feel comfortable doing some more travel that they otherwise maybe wouldn't have felt so comfortable doing. We talked about the fears of outliving your assets, so I've seen a lot of that. And then there's a lot of studies out there saying, just keeping sharp of mind. So I've seen that where people are like, "Hey, I don't want to retire because I want to stay active. I want to have a purpose and continue to do things." So I think I'm not surprised by that number.   Marc: Interesting.   John: Because we're having more conversations of people wanting to work longer because they enjoy what they're doing. And with Zoom, it's become very easy to continue to work longer.   Marc: Well Nick, I'll give you this last piece here. 48% of those people feel like they don't have enough saved to live on through retirement. I mean, you're talking about half. So half of the people surveyed don't think they have enough, so that sounds like it just comes back to just not truly having a plan or even really knowing what it is that you've got. They've probably never sat down and really pulled this stuff together so they don't feel confident.   Nick: Correct. I think you nailed it there. The uncertainty of not having a plan and not knowing and understanding what things look like really oftentimes causes procrastination, and then all of a sudden it's 5, 7, 10 years later and there could have been a couple of small tweaks or a couple of small adjustments. I mean, in reality, there's been so many times when within 30 minutes if John and I meeting with somebody the initial time, we can tell three to five things that they could do that wouldn't have a significant impact on their life, but would have a significant impact from a positive perspective on their overall planning. And so whether it's informing themselves and holding themselves accountable or working with an advisor, which we have found, and there's been a ton of studies that have found that having that partner to help guide them through the decision-making process, that there's significant value there and the average rates of return and all that kind of stuff show that because of the decision-making.   Marc: Well, think about what you're going through with the wedding planning stuff. So there was a thing a couple years ago we were talking about, some of the most stressful events we can do in life, one of them was planning for a wedding. One of them was planning for retirement, right?   Nick: Yeah.   Marc: There's a lot of decisions to be made. And so having somebody to lean on I think goes a long way into removing some of that stress because it does get overwhelming. And at some points you're just like, ah, screw it. I don't even know what to do anymore. So being able to talk with guys like yourselves and say, "Okay, look. Here's some thoughts we had," or, "Here's what we were afraid of," or whatever the case is, it gives you that sounding board to bounce some ideas off of and maybe get some reassurance.   Nick: Yep, fully agree.   Marc: Yeah, and so are you having that same problem from the wedding standpoint?   Nick: Right now we're interviewing planners-   Marc: There you go.   Nick: ...and the prices have gone up, so it's-   Marc: But you're looking for help, right, because it's a lot.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.   Marc: John, you don't want to be the wedding planner?   John: No, no. I did that 12 years ago-   Marc: I got you.   John: ...and I want no part of that.   Marc: I got you. Well, all right, guys, good conversation as always. Thanks so much for hanging out. So at the end of the day, I mean you find these surveys are pretty interesting. And I think a lot of this stuff comes back fairly similar each time, is that people are looking for some assurance. They're looking for some clarity in some of these situations, so that's the point of running through the planning process is finding out what do you got, where do you stand and how's it working for you, and do you need to make some changes?   Often people feel like we're going to have to do some major overhaul, and it scares them. But a lot of times when you run through the planning process, many people are in better shape than they realize. You just need some tweaks here and there. So if you want to have those conversations for yourself, reach out to John and Nick and get started today at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Get yourself onto the calendar for a consultation and a conversation.   And don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify, whatever podcasting app you like using. Retirement Planning - Redefined is the name of the show with John and Nick, and we'll see you next time here on the program. Thanks, guys. Take care of yourself.

April Fool's Day is all about jokes and pranks, but when it comes to retirement planning, getting fooled can cost you real money. Today, we're uncovering the beliefs that fool retirees and pre-retirees into making bad financial moves.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Host: April Fool's Day is all about jokes and pranks, but when it comes to retirement planning, getting fooled can cost you some real money. So we're going to talk about that. A little early for April Fool's, maybe, but we're going to still talk about it this week here on the podcast. So let's get into it.   Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. Thanks for hanging out with us here on Retirement Planning Redefined, with John, and Nick, and myself, as we talk investing, finance, and retirement. And we're taping this a couple of weeks before April Fool's Day. It should drop right around there, but we'll have a conversation with the guys. What's going on, Nick, buddy, how are you?   Nick: Good, good. Staying busy.   Host: Yeah. Well, that's always good. Good stuff. John, I know you and I were just chatting before we got rolling, we're worn out. But you hanging in there?   John: Yeah, doing all right. And don't let Nick fool you, he's got a lot going on.   Host: He's got a lot going on.   John: You tell him the news.   Host: He did. Yeah.   Nick: John's favorite topic. Got engaged a little over a month ago.   Host: Awesome, awesome.   Nick: Yeah, in the full throws of wedding planning, which is, of course, extremely exciting.   Host: That you're doing a little of, or a lot of, or zero of?   Nick: I would say some impact. My fiance is originally from Columbia, and the way that they do things for weddings there is a lot different than here.   Host: Okay, cool.   Nick: So yeah, so there's a little bit of translation from that perspective.   Host: Nice, nice.   Nick: Yeah, that's interesting. But it'll be good.   Host: Very cool. Nice.   Nick: It'll be good.   Host: Well, congratulations. Very, very cool.   Nick: Thank you. Appreciate it.   Host: All the best to the newlyweds. Very good stuff. We won't pull any April Fool's Day pranks on you then, in that regard. We'll just take to the financial stuff here this week.   So the idea, guys, being that, look, the media is nonstop, the onslaught of social media, internet, whatever. There's always something out there. And you just want to make sure you're vetting some stuff before you... Fool's gold, right? Before you just jump into something and maybe make a mistake.   So we'll start with tax conversation. So as at this time that we're taping the podcast, we don't know if the TCJA will get extended or not. Odds are fairly good, we'll see how the year plays out. But if they don't, they expire at the end of the year, the current tax code that we're under.   So are you taking that information and maybe thinking, hey, I don't have to do any tax planning for the future, because maybe the taxes are going to stay really low like they have been historically? Or are you being proactive and saying, "Well, there's a chance that taxes could still go up, because we owe a lot of money"? So whoever wants to jump in, get started on that. But what do you think about the tax situation and not fooling yourself into just thinking everything's going to stay exactly the same?   Nick: Yeah, I can start with this one. So one of the things that we really emphasize with clients and people that we work with is, especially when it comes to taxes, that the best thing that you can do is to expect change. So whether it's something changing at the end of this year, a couple years from now, whatever it is, the goal is to allow yourself to be adaptable to whatever's happening.   So the easiest way to do that is to have different types of accounts. So to have Roth accounts, pre-tax accounts, and more of a traditional brokerage account where we can factor in capital gains instead.   But even more specific, when it comes to the whole concept of potentially underestimating taxes, there's still a lot of confusion for people on how much of their social security is going to be taxable, or include-able in their taxable income. I had a conversation with my parents about it, and I had to convince them that I was correct and knew what I was talking about after 20 years, because of a way that something that they heard on the radio or saw on TV was phrased, made it very confusing to them. So just-   Host: Sure, I mean, there's the conversation that they might get rid of it, but they haven't done it yet. So you still got to be planning for stuff.   Nick: Yeah. But even outside of that, the way... It was interesting, and I do want to bring it up now that I remember it.   Host: Sure.   Nick: The way that it was being marketed was that the concept of, "Hey, most people don't know that your social security, how much you pay in taxes on your social security will go up at age 73." And so, really, the concept of that was, "Hey, when required minimum distributions kick in, and you have more taxable income, there's a chance that more of your social security income will be include-able in your tax and how much you pay in taxes." So it was kind of a roundabout way to scare people. So it allowed us to have the conversation about, for a huge chunk of people, 85% of their social security is going to be include-able in their taxable income, at least how the law is now, and just how other types of income may impact that.   Host: Oh, and that's a great point though. That really highlights exactly the point of this conversation, is that depending on how you phrase things, it's very easy to get misled by stuff. And so that's a great illustration of that, Nick. So thank you for sharing that.   And it definitely walks that... And that's what all these are going to do. John, like the next one around Medicare misunderstandings. So my mom's forever, she's 83, she's forever going... And my brother's now, he's over 65, so she's educating him. She's schooling him on the stuff she's been doing for a while with Medicare. And it's like, it doesn't cover everything. And people still sometimes think that, "Hey, at least I've got to 65. Now I've got this Medicare thing. I'm in good shape." And it is a great program, in a lot of ways, but it doesn't cover everything.   John: Yeah, that's accurate. And a lot of people, unfortunately, don't realize that. And a big thing that, when you get Medicare age, age 65, Medicare has a lot of moving parts to it, and there's a lot of different options.   Host: Oh, yeah.   John: So depending on whether you go, let's say, on an Advantage Plan, if you're on Plan F, or G, you get the supplement, it's going to determine what is covered. And then, also, you want to look at, do your current providers even take Medicare? So you might be looking at it and think that you're going to be all set-   Host: Great point.   John: ... And then you come to find out that your provider who you like doesn't even take it. So yeah, it definitely does not cover everything. So when you're doing your planning, when we do it, we always try to make sure, "Hey, this is our set price for Medicare." Then we adjust as we determine what plan the client's going to go with or help them determine what's their best option. But also, you want to plan for some out-of-pocket medical expenses for what it doesn't cover.   Host: Yeah, I think she's changed her dentist a couple of times just because they don't take it anymore. They changed or whatever. And of course, dental being one of those things that people often don't realize is, a lot of stuff's not covered there.   John: And prescriptions.   Host: Yeah, and eye. The eye stuff is really interesting. Some of the eyeglass stuff, like going to the eye doctor for just basic optometry stuff is not covered. But then the cataract stuff, some of it was. So it's very strange. So you want to make sure you're understanding what is and what isn't taken care of there with Medicare. So that's certainly a good one as well.   Nick, what about the set it and forget it retirement plan strategy. When you're talking about things getting kind of mis-sold or kind of mislabeled out there, some people will be like, "Hey look, you got to get a plan together. You put stuff in there. You let it ride and you roll from there." Right? Well, some things can set it and forget it, but some things can't either.   Nick: Yeah. So kind of a good example of maybe the set it and forget it concept, saw come up a little bit more in the last couple of years, where had some clients that were moving towards retirement, and they had done a good job of saving and building up the nest egg, and they were somewhat familiar with, maybe take 4% a year and I can live off of 4% a year.   But with rates being in that point of time where we clicked up, where they could get four to five, five and a half percent in money market CDs, et cetera, they had kind of just said, "Hey, want to shift to the sidelines, want to avoid the market. I'm just going to take my 4-5% and live off the interest." And the conversations that we had to really have were, conceptually, that'll be good for now, for the next year or two. But most likely, there's going to be a point in time within the next three to five years that rates are going to change, and that 5% might turn into 3%, or two and a half percent.   And even on, let's just use 2 million bucks. So maybe they could do 5% on 2 million is a hundred grand a year, good to go. Now if we shift to two and a half, 50 grand a year off of the portfolio, with their intention of trying to maintain principle, that starts to rewind a little bit.   And so, it's a good example of realizing how the dynamics of a plan change, and that if you're only factoring in what's happening now, or in the next short term, next couple years, that not understanding updating and adjusting your plan to current circumstances, or maybe a broader sense of what could happen, could really put somebody in a difficult position.   Host: Yeah, that's a great point as well. So there's so much stuff you got to think about when you're factoring all these things in. And John, the market's been choppy. The time we're taping this, it's been a little choppy out there. So some of the tariff conversations-   John: Just a little bit.   Host: A little bit, or whatever is kind of making the market uneasy. But chasing and obsessing, not necessarily just over the market highs, but also high dividend stocks. So sometimes people will say, "Well, a good alternative to doing X or Y is to get high dividend stocks." What's some thoughts there?   John: There's different strategies for what you're trying to accomplish. And one of the problems with this one, especially if you're going to retirement and you're thinking of, "Hey, I'm just going to have high dividend paying stocks," is that those things can change. If all of a sudden we have a recession, or the economy's not doing well, or that particular company's not doing well, guess what they could do? They could just change your dividend.   So if you had a plan, going back to what Nick's example, they're like, "Hey, I've got this stock. It's giving me 4- 5%," and you think you're okay. And all of a sudden some news comes out and that dividend drops, and now your whole plan just slightly changed. So with dividend paying stocks, they're not guaranteed. And depending on how high of a dividend paying stock it is, the higher sometimes could be correlated with a little bit being more aggressive and more risk.   So I've seen, this actually reminds me of a meeting I just had this week, where someone was in talking to a friend of theirs, and they were trying to say, "Hey, just put all your stuff in these high dividend paying rates," and all these things. And I'm looking at it like, "Hey, this is pretty aggressive. You're getting a good yield. But if we have some type of pullback, not only will your dividend potentially go down, but the value of this stock could also drop."   Host: Sure. Yeah.   John: So it's just important to understand what you're in and what could change.   Nick: I think I'd also like to jump in on that.   Host: Sure.   Nick: Because I've had this conversation with some clients quite a bit. And one of the things that I tried to emphasize is that if we look over, because a lot of times the generation that's been drilled with dividend paying stocks is a generation now that's kind of entered into retirement, where they were really starting to invest in coming up through the period of higher interest rates, when dividend paying stocks perform better.   And frankly, if you look over the last 10, really post recession, post '09 and 2010 recession, in an environment with lower rates, if somebody was invested the last 15 years in only dividend paying stocks, then the returns that they have gotten are pennies compared to being involved in-   Host: Wow.   Nick: ... growth related investments. Think of tech, think of the Magnificent Seven now, think of all the areas of the massive growth over the last 10 or 15 years, and there was significant opportunity cost. So the environment that we're in, where those companies were really rewarded for, the cost of borrowing was low, the ability to reinvest and grow was high. Even when you factor in stock buybacks, I mean, you had companies that were making more money in stock buybacks than they were in producing their own products. So the environment of what's happening has a significant impact on that as well.   Host: That's great points, guys. So it's easy to get lulled into whatever kind of marketing, or whatever kind of news headline, or whatever the case is. So just make sure that you're not falling for it. Or at least not without vetting some things out and talking with your financial professionals.   So if you've got some questions, as always, you need some help, you should always run anything you hear by on our podcast, or really any other, even the big talking head shows, talk with someone local in your area about your unique situation so that you're getting some hands-on advice and conversation. And if you need some help, John, and Nick, and the team are available at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. So you can subscribe to the podcast. You can find it there. Of course, you can get some time on the calendar through the website, lots of good tools, tips, and resources. And of course, you can subscribe to us on Apple, or Spotify, or whatever podcasting app you like using.   So again, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's going to do it this week. Guys, thanks for hanging out, as always, and breaking it down. Congratulations once again, Nick, on the upcoming nuptials. And John, buddy, have a great week. We'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined.  

Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. Listen to this episode where we'll explore why it's so important for couples to have detailed conversations about their finances and retirement futures. We'll cover exactly what you need to discuss, and how to handle any disagreements.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com   Disclaimer: Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. The topics and information discussed during this podcast are not intended to provide tax or legal advice. Investments involve risk, and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial advisor and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed on this podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Insurance products and services are offered and sold through individually licensed and appointed insurance agents.     Mark: Are you and your spouse on the same page when it comes to what retirement is going to look like? If not, it's time to talk. So check into this episode where we explore why it's important for couples to have detailed conversations about not only their finance, but their retirement futures and their dreams, this week on Retirement Planning, Redefined.   What's going on? Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John, Nick, and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And we're going to go to couples therapy this week here on the podcast a little bit, or maybe we'll make it more manly, I guess, and call it a team sport.   However you want to look at it, you want to be on the same page with your spouse, with your loved one when it comes to retirement. I wanted to talk a little bit about that this week, guys, to see how many people generally are on the same page by the time they sit down with professionals like yourselves, financial professionals, or if it's happening a lot in real time, right in front of you. So we'll get into it this week.   What's going on, John? How are you bud?   John: Hey, I'm doing good. How are you?   Mark: Doing pretty good, hanging in there. Looking forward to chatting about this a little bit.   Nick, I hope you're well.   Nick: All good.   Mark: All good as usual. Well, that's very good.   Nick: Good start to the season for the bills, so I'm happy.   Mark: All right, well there you go.   Nick: It's early. It's early, but...   Mark: My lions, my lions are all right for right now. We'll see. I don't have a lot of hope. 40 years doesn't bode well when you have one good season in 40 years, but we'll see.   Nick: I get it, [inaudible 00:01:33].   Mark: All right, so let's dive into this couple stuff here. Why is it important for couples to work together on their retirement plan? I mean, you come in, somebody sits down for the first time with you guys for a consultation, and they're just not even remotely on the same page. That's got to be a bit more problematic, yeah?   Nick: Yeah. Not being remotely on the same page is tricky. I would almost say we probably, at least for John and I, we probably don't run into it too much where they're completely on separate pages.   Mark: Well, that's good.   Nick: I would say that there tend to be different ways that they think about money and kind of communicate about money. To be honest, that's one of the reasons that I would say that John and I like working together as a team with clients is because oftentimes one of us will kind of pick up more on the vibe that one of the people in the relationship is on, and then vice versa the other way around.   And so I'd say it's pretty rare that people in a couple tend to think about finances the same way. Even though they might end up having similar goals on the backside, they kind of attack it a little bit differently. And really it's, I think we joke sometimes, I think at this point we're 80% therapist, 20% financial advisors.   Mark: Right.   Nick: And really it's just trying to get people closer to the same page, and realizing that a lot of the things that they're talking about are pretty similar and they're just going about different ways to attack that.   Mark: Well, John, to expand on that, when somebody sits down for the first time, do you guys, if they haven't really discussed some of those big issues, is it important that they maybe try to knock some of that out before they come in to see an advisor? Or does it not really matter as long as it's getting done?   John: Yeah, I don't think it really matters. I think sometimes they're not even really sure exactly what to be knocking out prior. So to delay meeting with someone just to try to figure out, "Hey, are we on the same page?", I don't think makes sense. I think what tends to happen in our meetings is we'll ask some questions that kind of get them thinking a little differently. Like, "Oh, I didn't think about that." And ultimately, I think what we do when we do our planning, they tend to have some things come out and then they tend to kind of understand where the other one's coming from and that kind of lines up.   Mark: Yeah. Well, I mean, I talk to advisors all across the country and I certainly hear stories often about people saying, one person will say something and the spouse will go, "Since when? I never heard of that."   Nick: It definitely happens sometimes for sure. I would say almost that tends to be more on the lifestyle side of things.   Mark: Okay, all right.   Nick: Versus almost purely financial.   Mark: Like "I want to go scuba diving in every major ocean or something." And the other one's like, "What?"   Nick: Yeah, when the husband pulls, "I want to drive across country in the RV" card, that's where I've seen a lot of the sideway looks where... My parents are a good example, it's like my dad doesn't like to drive to Publix, but then he said he wanted to drive-   Mark: Across the nation.   Nick: ... In an RV, because that's going to be more relaxing. And I remind him that a thousand miles is a lot worse than five. So there's things like that absolutely. How to spend that time, or even just the extra time together. I've almost seen it where it tends to be a little bit of a smoother process for couples when one person retires first, and maybe there's a year or two lag, where they kind of have a little bit of a staggering on spending an extra 50 hours a week together, which can be a little bit of a shock.   Mark: Sure, yeah, it's a totally different animal. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, a totally different ballgame. So I would say from at least my experience with clients, it tends to be more in the lifestyle side of things. What I've seen most often with couples are it's rare that it's a 50/50 input on finances.   A lot of times I'll see it where one person might be a little bit more strategic on expenses, and then the other one might be a little bit more focused on the actual investments, things like that. But they end up being kind of having the same goal or outlook, but the lifestyle and how they're going to spend their time in retirement and how much they're willing to spend to do those sorts of things tends to be a little bit different.   Mark: All right, John, well let me throw this one your way. So my wife and I are not usually on the same page when it comes to certain different things in a relationship, like most couples. And when it comes to risk, we are completely different.   So how can couples navigate if they are in different places risk-wise? Because let's be honest, I mean the statistics are what they are. Typically, us fellas tend to want to take a little bit more risk, and a lot of times the ladies tend to want to play it a little safer. Not always, but that's kind of the average.   So how do you guys handle that and what's some advice there?   John: So we'll do risk tolerances for each client when that comes up. And we we'll find that someone, again, might be more aggressive than the other, so maybe their accounts are invested, maybe a moderate where someone else's, the spouse might be invested conservative. So that, having separate accounts makes that a little bit easier.   It becomes more difficult when it's the, a joint account. And what we'll do at that standpoint is we kind of go back to the plan. So a lot of the times it's what type of rate of return are we trying to achieve from the planning standpoint. We kind of have conversations, and we'll try to blend the two of them together.   I'd say for the most part, I don't want to speak for Nick, but he could jump in, have never really had this come up as an issue. It's kind of like, "Hey, this is how you want to do it. This is how this other person wants to do it." And for the most part, the spouses are okay with it as long as they're achieving their goals.   Mark: Interesting.   Nick: For the clients that tend to be, for the ones that have a little bit more of that risk appetite, we found through conversation that they have the risk appetite when things are good.   Mark: Sure. Everybody likes it when it's up, right?   Nick: Yeah, for sure. And not necessarily when things are bad. And so we're big fans of almost having, for lack of a better term, like a petty cash drawer or just kind of a smaller investment account that will carve out. So when there are clients that want to have that higher risk appetite, want to take opportunities to really kind of get some big upside.   Mark: So that's your speculative casino type money, right?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: If you will.   Nick: Yup, yup, exactly. And really too, because I would say the majority of our clients are pretty close to retirement or in retirement, they tend to, at least in our experience, be a little bit over that phase with any sort of larger amounts of money. Oftentimes they come to us and they're like, "All right, we had our fun and we're ready to be a little bit more in line on the risk side of things with the investment decisions that we're making." And oftentimes when we have that conversation of, "Hey, if you get an itch, let's have this off to the side and it'll help you make better decisions with the rest of the money." That tends to be kind of a winner for everybody.   John: No, I was going to say, yeah, that's kind of what we reference sometimes as a cave, this is kind of your play account where you want to buy some individual stocks and things like that, where the fluctuation won't really make a big impact overall on your plan. So as Nick mentioned, that kind of satisfies some of the very aggressive clients.   Mark: Okay. Well, so you mentioned the fact a second ago that a lot of your clients tend to be nearing or into retirement, and with a different demographic comes different feelings and mindsets about money.   So with that in mind, we tend to find that, which is really weird if you think about it this way, a lot of times you tend to find that in couples, going through the life, building of the life, raising the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, typically the wife tends to budget the money, handle the money, so on and so forth. She's doing all that stuff in the house. But when it comes to retirement, it tends to seem like us guys tend to take the lead there.   Is it okay for one person to handle all the financial matters? Or do you guys really prefer that both people have a good understanding, even if it's not your bag, do you still prefer them to have a general, I don't know, 10,000 foot view of what's going on?   Nick: Yes. I would say too, more and more that, again, from our experience, and maybe it's our clientele where you've got a lot of households that are both people work, both have retirement accounts, and although they may make some differences from the perspective of risk in their portfolios and stuff like that, it tends to be a collaborative effort. Again, I would say we have, anytime we do planning, we have clients fill out an expense worksheet. It's rare that they both fill it out. It's usually one of the two that are filling out the expense worksheet.   And so it does tend to get kind of broken up a little bit from who focuses on what. But it's definitely important that they're both on the same page and have a good grasp and an understanding. And I would say too is the easiest example of that, and the people that work with us kind of know this is there's one report that we go over with clients, it's like a cashflow. It's in detail, wall of numbers, lots of columns, can be kind of intense. And then there's an area called the decision center, which takes all those columns and it puts it into kind of a graph format and it's more interactive.   And I think that's kind of almost the best illustration of the different sides of the brain where one person in the couple sometimes likes the details and likes the column report and they like to, because they can go in on their client side of the portal and go through that and re-review it. And the other one is, "Hey, let's zoom out. Give me the broader picture. Are we good? Are we not good? Give me an idea of a couple of decisions that we need to make moving forward and let's go from there."   Mark: And there's no right or wrong to either one, it's just what is your personal appetite? But I think neither, like if both of you don't have a good understanding, John, that's a recipe for trouble later on too.   John: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. It's important for both to at least have an idea of what's happening and working as a team, whether one takes a lead and one takes a backseat, we encourage everyone to have a general understanding. Because this past year has been interesting where I've had some clients have some health issues, pass away. And you got to make sure that both pistons are aware of what's happening because you don't want that situation where it's like, "Hey, I don't know where anything is. What do I do?" So [inaudible 00:11:43].   Mark: That's exactly the point, right? Yeah, that's the worst case scenario. And it often, it happens more times than people realize. So you both want to have a decent understanding, even if it's not your thing. And again, no gender roles there. It tends to be the case, but I mean, my wife is way smarter than I am, and she actually deals with, she's very analytical and deals with money and numbers all the time for work. And it's one of those things where when it comes to our retirement, she's like, "I don't want to deal with it. So you deal with it."   And it could just be as simple as, "I deal with numbers all the time, I don't want to deal with it yet another way." So no matter what it is, you find a way to make it work, but not having a decent understanding of what you have, and why you have it and who to turn to in the event of a catastrophe, is a recipe for disaster. So obviously if you're working with a financial professional and a team like the guys at PFG Private Wealth, then at least you also have that resource to turn to when something does happen like John just mentioned.   So one final question here, I'll let you both kind of jump in and chime in a little bit here. What final piece of advice would you give to couples who are maybe just beginning their retirement planning journey, when it comes to making sure that they both are feeling comfortable?   Nick: I think it depends on what phase they are in life, but in general, I think it's hard to screw it up long-term, if you're saving money. So even if you are very conservatively saving the money and you're not getting much return on your money, that kind of instills an ingrained habit of saving money and being used to living on the rest. That will lead you to better habits and better outcomes.   You can always take the next step in, whether it's working with an advisor, whether it's doing research by yourself and then making better and smarter decisions on how you invest that money that you saved. That tends to be kind of the easier part. But the behavior of saving that money first and then going from there, is the number one thing, I think that's important.   Mark: Okay. That's his advice there. What do you about you, John, what do you think?   John: Yeah, it's really similar. You can never go wrong saving. And it's really just kind of the words that just get started. Just get started saving, just get started planning, get started with any of it. Whether you have kids, you want to make sure that estate documents are in place, insurances are in place.   So depending on what phase, it's just a matter of getting started with the overall planning, and saving is definitely where you want to be the forefront. Because like Nick said, you can't go wrong. You're never going to be mad looking back saying, "Man, I saved way too much for retirement."   Mark: Right, exactly. Taking the forward steps and doing something to quote the rush song, right? If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So don't make that choice to do nothing. Do something for yourself and your future self and get started today. Make sure that you are planning for retirement and having conversations with your loved ones so that you guys are on the same page.   And of course, as always, if you need some help, make sure that you get onto the calendar with qualified professionals like the team at PFG Private Wealth. You can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com to get yourself some time on the calendar to sit down with John and Nick and get started today.   This has been Retirement Planning, Redefined. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever major podcasting platform app you like to use. They're on all of them. So you can just type in Retirement Planning, Redefined in the search box, or just go to pfgprivatewealth.com.   We'll sign off for this week. For John and Nick, I'm your host Mark, and we'll catch you next time.

Are you planning for your retirement with the confidence that you're making all the right moves? In today's episode, we'll unveil the crucial income planning mistakes that could jeopardize your retirement and show you how to craft a financial plan that's built to last decades, not just years. Tune in to ensure your retirement strategy is foolproof against common pitfalls and ready to secure your financial future.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Are you planning for your retirement with the confidence that you're making all the right moves? Well, on today's episode, we'll unveil the crucial income planning mistakes that could jeopardize your retirement and show how to craft the financial plan that's built to last decades, not just years. Tune in to Retirement Planning Redefined. All that, coming up next.   Hey everybody, welcome into the podcast, John and Nick joining me once again to talk investing, finance, and retirement here on Retirement Planning Redefined with the guys from PFG Private Wealth. John and Nick are financial advisors helping folks get to and through retirement. You can find them online, if you've got some questions, need some help, at pfgprivatewealth.com, pfgprivatewealth.com. And we're going to talk about some income planning mistakes this week here on the podcast.   What's going on, gents? How you doing, Nick? What's going on, buddy?   Nick: Good, good. Just staying busy. Just crazy that we're almost April. I guess we're approaching April at this point. Just had some friends in town, so that's always a little bit chaotic. But no, everything's good. No complaints.   Marc: John, how's it going in the crazy household that is yours my friend? You doing all right?   John: It is crazy. I don't want to get into it. But yes, it is a madhouse. I'll leave it at that. But, yes.   Marc: But having little ones always is, but that's good.   John: Yeah, you know well.   Marc: Well, and it's April, right? It's a busy time of year, too, a lot of things happening with taxes and financial strategies and everything. Anyway, it's spring, all that good stuff.   So, let's talk about some income planning mistakes. Let's kick it off with something simple. I teed it up a little bit in the intro there about being retired for decades, not just years. I know that we all fundamentally think that, John. We're like, "Yeah, of course, we're going to be retired for decades." But somehow or another it disassociates, I think, as we're getting thirties, forties, maybe even in our early fifties. We don't really put as much thought to it, I guess, as we should.   For me, for example, all the men in my family die young. I've already had heart surgery at a young age, so I could easily jump onto that path of, well, I'm not going to live that long, so whatever. I am not going to really worry about planning for decades. But that's just a bad move, especially if you've got people that you love, loved ones that you may want to make sure they're taken care of too. So, ways to think about it, right?   John: Yeah, the worst thing you could do is plan to retire for a few years, and next thing you know, run out of money, you don't know what's happening anymore. But no, we get this quite a bit where I can remember clearly Nick and I were doing a plan and the money around the eighties, it was looking a little tight. The person was pretty excited. We were like, "We need to make some adjustments to make sure it lasts age 100." He is like, "No, I'm good." He's like, "I'm not lasting until 80 or 83." And we were like, "Okay, well, we'll still do our due diligence to make sure your money lasts for a while," but [inaudible 00:02:55]   Marc: What if you're wrong? That's the thing. And did this person have a spouse? Were they married?   John: He had a spouse there. He was semi-serious, but we ended up making some adjustments to it. But that is something we had quite a bit. When we do our planning, we make sure it goes to age 100, because you can't predict the future. And with technology and everything that's going on now, people are living longer.   Marc: For sure.   John: It's just the healthcare industry, there's just always new innovative things happening. But it's a mindset that I will say people need to understand.   And that goes with building a portfolio. Just had a conversation with a client this week, and we're doing some things, and they're just looking at everything short-term. I had to remind them and say, "Hey, you're looking at a 20, 30 year period where there's some long-term money here. Not everything is the next five years." And just talking to her made her realize that of just saying, "Hey, I'm still invested for the long term. I can't make adjustments just based on expecting the next four or five years." So, that is a mindset people really don't understand with the investment portfolio. You still have some long-term money, because your retirement is going to be 20, 30 years, not just four or five.   Marc: No, a great point. Glad you were able to have that conversation with her and get her eyes moving. I think that's a real value add right there that people don't often take into account when working with a financial professional. We tend to think, "Well, it's the X's and the O's. They're going to help me figure out the dollars and the cents." But there's also really thinking through and behavioral analysis a little bit, behavioral changes that we have to walk through, because you guys see this day in and day out.   And Nick, I'll throw number two over to you. Part of that, as John was just saying, "Hey, you've got to set things up for short-term and long-term," social security is going to play a big factor in that. So, starting it too early could really change your long-term numbers.   Nick: Yeah, there's an extra emotional attachment to social security, which we very much understand.   Marc: Whether you're mad at it or not, whether it takes off or not.   Nick: Yeah, and we totally understand that. For us, we always try to integrate the social security decision with the overall investments and the overall plan. Just like with anything, we always approach it from the perspective of, hey, our job is to tell you the impact of the decisions you may make, and then ultimately it's your money.   But, for sure, one of the biggest negatives, especially if they're financial situation is pretty solid otherwise, starting social security too early these days makes a difference. Really the last few years have really played that out. Anybody that started social security before COVID and maybe didn't necessarily need to, between the inflationary adjustments that have happened, which they still would've received, that inflationary adjustment compounds with the delay. And so, the jumps in benefits for anybody that's waited those few extra years have been substantial, and people that are starting it now are pretty happy that they waited, and it's made a difference for them.   Marc: Well, if you don't have a strategy, you could be costing yourself tens of thousands. This could be big dollars over the course of your lifetime. I get it. We're all terrified about what's going on in the world, because every five seconds it seems like there's some new, crazy, weird, wonky thing happening in the world that is 2024. But you've still got to make sure that you're making the right decision so that these planning mistakes don't come back to bite you 10, 15, 20, 25 years down the line. So, good points, for sure.   Hey, John, what about bonds? For years, you'd go 60/40. You'd go standard portfolio. You'd go to bonds as we age for safety. Last couple of years though, they ain't been all that great. So, is it still one of those things where assuming it's a safe source is a good move, or not?   John: Yeah, I would say it's not to assume that that's going to be 100% your source of income. We're going to-   Marc: From a safe side, right?   John: Yeah, yeah. We're going to touch on inflation and things like that. We've talked about being retired for decades, so you want to make sure that you have some equities in the portfolio so you are keeping up with costs of living going up. If you're just in bonds and fixed income, you're going to lose out on a lot of upside. And then, if you look at the past years, although interest rates have gone up obviously the last couple of years, there was about a 15, 20-year period where you get a bond and it's giving you two or 3%. That's nearly not enough to supplement most people's income.   Marc: Oh, for sure.   John: So, you definitely want to diversify, make sure you're planning for the long term for some growth, and also you want to adjust to an environment where interest rates are very low and the bond yields just aren't enough to sustain what you're trying to do.   Marc: And at the time we're taping this here, it's just at the very end of March, it'll probably be out sometime here in April of '24, Powell still saying that even though the numbers came back in, inflation was a tad higher, I think, just last month then what they anticipated core inflation. He's still saying that nothing's changed for him, and that they may be looking at cutting rates throughout 2024. So, who knows?   But Nick, that does play into inflation as John just teed it up. Our fourth point here is it's going to play into it no matter what's going on with the dynamic that we have right now. But even just basic inflation, even if you just go sticking with the normal 3% we've seen for years and years and years, if you don't take this into account, and again, our topic being income planning mistakes, you are seriously messing yourself up, because five grand right now, if that's your expenses, is not going to be five grand in 10 years. It just isn't.   Nick: Yeah. I would say too, especially in this area, I think there's been some studies at the inflation rate in the Tampa Bay area has been higher than other places.   Marc: Okay.   Nick: I've had multiple conversations with clients where there's been this... I think because there was such a period of scarcity in getting decent fixed rates, whatever it was, eight to 10 years, it's like people are just taking a deep breath and just saying, "Oh, finally I can get four and a half or 5% on my money again," which is great, but the issue is that some are assuming that it's going to last for a long period of time. Last year is a really good example from the perspective of that five-ish percent, whether it's a CD or money market or whatever, solidified last year. We had some clients that shifted more over, and we had many conversations about it. But again, it's like the S&P then did, what, around 20% or something like that?   So, there was an opportunity cost there. When the market's up like that, you really don't want to lose out on those years. And so, the inflation is compounded. For example, even just people that are in Florida and live in a condo, maybe they've lived in a condo for a while, all the condo rules and association rules have changed. They're like, "I've seen association fees double in the last two or three years," and it's really putting a lot of pressure on people. Even if their mortgage is paid off, but they've been on somewhat of a fixed income, there's a lot of pressure happening there.   And so, yeah, we try to just keep emphasizing even if it's a small portion of the money, even if it's only 20 to 40% of the overall portfolio where we have something related to growth, more marketed towards that, getting them to understand that, hey, this is for money down the road. No matter where the rates are right now, the one thing I can promise you is they're going to change. And so, that's been a little bit of a different conversation than we've had to have probably, I'd say, the 10 years previous to that. So, it's going to be interesting to see how people start to react when the cuts do happen.   Marc: Yeah, because you're talking about having to keep up with inflation, you need to have some stuff at growth. You've got to have some stuff at risk, basically, so that you can pick up gains in the market, things of that nature, wherever it's coming from. But you've got to have some money out there taking a few chances, because you do have to keep up with or outpace inflation.   I guess that really just brings me to my last point here, John, and you guys can both jump in if you'd like to on this, but you've got to have other income streams besides just social security, plain and simple. That's all fine and good, but you've got to have some other income streams and some of that needs to be safe, and some of that needs to help you with the future money, which is growth.   John: Yeah, 100%, Mark. Social security might cover thirty to forty-percent of someone's expenses, and covers a portion of what they need for income there, but really important to have some other income stream, whether that be real estate, whether it's your investments.   Right now, we're talking about rates, rates are really strong. We have a lot of clients looking into these income annuities, because they look really appealing right now. Because as interest rates go up, those annuity products typically tend to look a little bit better. So, just having that guaranteed income or just reliable income source to put on top of social security really gives a nice buffer.   I don't want to speak for Nick, but I have found when you have your floor of guaranteed income, it helps you make better decisions even with your other money, where if the market's volatile, but you say, "Hey, I have X amount of dollars guaranteed income coming in in this pool of money here that's set aside for growth," even when it's a little volatile, it's just giving you a little more peace of mind to saying, "Hey, I know my baseline expenses are covered, so I'm going to be okay." We find that that does help people make better decisions when they have multiple income streams.   Marc: Yeah, you got to do it, right, Nick? It's just the point of the fact that you want to have that diversification not only in income but also with tax buckets. You just want to have some general good broad diversification in your entire portfolio.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely. The diversification, and I alluded to it earlier, it's just as important as ever. Having the higher floor on fixed rates has been helpful the last couple years, but the phrase that I've used quite a bit lately is zoom out. We need to zoom out and continue to zoom out, because that's really important, for sure.   Marc: That higher view of things versus trying to narrow in?   Nick: Yeah.   Marc: Yeah, I got you. Well, so there's some income planning mistakes that we can certainly make, so make sure that you're avoiding these. And of course, if you think, "Well, I don't do this every day," or, "This is something that I just can't wrap my brain around all the time because I'm just too busy living my life and working my own job," or whatever the case might be, that's why you have a financial team to help you out.   So, if you need some help, and of course you've got questions, always reach out to a qualified professional like John and Nick before you take any action to see how something's going to fit into your unique situation. They're financial advisors to PFG Private Wealth. You can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com.   And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast Retirement Planning Redefined on Apple or Spotify or YouTube platforms. That's going to do it this week for us. We'll be back with more on future episodes. So again, hit that subscribe button and we'll catch you next time on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick.

Savvy property management entrepreneurs are always on the lookout for new ways to expand their services and better serve their clients and residents. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull chat with Nick Friedman, founder of College Hunks Hauling Junk and Trash Butler. You'll Learn [02:08] Becoming an entrepreneur [09:14] Daily trash removal for multifamily communities [16:45] A butler service for trash? How does it work? [19:47] Vetting team members [27:50] Junk removal services for property managers Tweetables “Property managers are that front-line resource for all things community.” “We've got to have urgency of effort, patience for the results.” “Culture drives behavior. Behavior drives results.” “Execution is a differentiator if you can out-execute everybody else.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Nick: I have come to realize, because we're in a blue collar industry ourselves, moving furniture and picking up trash at residents' doorsteps. Execution is a differentiator if you can out execute everybody else.  [00:00:14] Jason: All right. Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers, love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. [00:00:39] Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:56] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:12] Now let's get into the show. All right. And our guest today is Nick Friedman. Did I say your name right?  [00:01:20] You got it right.  [00:01:21] Cool. And Nick has two different businesses. And why don't you introduce the two businesses and then I'd love to get into your background of how you got into entrepreneurship. [00:01:30] Nick: Absolutely. So two businesses that are relevant to property management, one is a doorstep amenity for apartment complexes called Trash Butler. It helps increase revenue and net operating income for the communities while also providing an amenity for the residents and that kind of incubated out of our first company that we launched, which is a company called College Hunks Hauling Junk and Moving. I'm a little more widely known for that business that I started back in college. It's a moving and bulk removal service that now has over 300 franchises across the U.S. So it's been a fun journey and a very entrepreneurial journey to say the least. [00:02:08] Jason: Awesome. So Nick, when did you first realize you were an entrepreneur that you were a little bit weird?  [00:02:13] Nick: I would have to say in retrospect, it was all the way into my early days of childhood. My sister had a lemonade stand in front of our house. She wanted to charge 25 cents for lemonade. I went out and started a competing lemonade next to hers and I wanted to charge a dollar for my lemonade because I thought my lemonade was better and I think we probably sold the same amount of cups, but I made four times the amount of money than she did because I was charging a dollar then she was charging 25 cents. So in hindsight, I think I would always do some out of the box things. My teachers would call me a little bit restless. But really our business innovation took place when we were in college. Because we had always been brought up and told to follow the more traditional career path, work hard in school, get good grades, get a job after you graduate, climb up that ladder. [00:02:56] And the summer before my senior year of college. My buddy's mom had a beat up cargo van from her furniture store and she said, "why don't you guys go do something with the van? You guys could move furniture, haul trash, you guys could be like college hunks who haul junk," and we just started laughing about it decided to put that on flyers and the phone started ringing so we were in business and realized that the name was catchy. [00:03:18] People appreciated quality service and and that was the light bulb moment for us to pursue a career of entrepreneurship and not the traditional path.  [00:03:26] Jason: There you go. So thank goodness for that truck, right? That's right. Changed your life.  [00:03:31] Nick: Totally changed our life. We credit her with the name. Yeah. [00:03:34] Jason: Competing with the sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, it was my entrepreneurial mom who was a real estate agent. She just, she was always hustling, trying to figure out how to make money. And she would have us fold flyers for her and canvas neighborhoods.  [00:03:50] Nick: And that's really when we realized the niche for us is very much so within property management, right? [00:03:56] Because. A homeowner or business might move every couple of years, might have junk to be removed every so often, but property managers are that front line resource for all things community, whether that's residents who are moving in and out, whether that's bulk trash is being left behind and needs to get turned around for the next move in. And then that ultimately, as I mentioned, incubated our Trash Butler business, which is more of a recurring revenue model, but it produces income for the apartment complexes that we partner with. It was an evolution for us. I always tell the story when we 1st started, we were doing all the work ourselves. [00:04:29] So we went out and we bought an 800 number. And we slapped it on the back of our truck, trying to make ourselves look bigger, but it was still routed to our cell phone. And so people would call to complain about erratic driving and we'd be in the driver's seat answering the phone, pretending like we weren't, saying, "Oh yeah, we'll fire those guys when they get back on the road, yeah, they're the worst." Yeah. Yeah. "We don't condone that driving in our company." So we probably fired ourselves at least three or four times. And I'm sure, your property manager listeners can relate to that. When they first started their business, you're doing all the work yourself. [00:04:59] You're fixing the doorknobs, you're changing out the light bulbs and everything in between. And one of our mentors recommended to us that we read a book called the E Myth Revisited, it's by a guy named Michael Gerber. And in it really emphasizes the notion of working on your business, not just in your business, creating systems and processes for the business to scale, which is obviously what you're doing for folks. [00:05:20] And so I think that was the next light bulb moment for us is if we're ever going to have another truck. Let alone another location, let alone eventually a second business. We've got to start documenting how we do everything.  [00:05:31] Jason: Yeah. And is that what kind of helped it take off? [00:05:34] Nick: I describe ourselves as a 20 year overnight success because it feels like it took that long for us to get to where we are. [00:05:40] It really did. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners and leaders have a level of impatience, which is good. But I always preach to our team, we've got to have urgency of effort, patience for the results, because if we get up every day, grind it out, and then we look a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, based on that consistent grind, we're going to see long term results start to manifest. [00:06:03] And so none of it happened overnight but it was a process and it was putting systems in place, aligning ourselves with great people and just being committed to our purpose and our vision.  [00:06:14] Jason: Yeah, I love it. I think I love that. Urgency of effort, patience for the result. [00:06:18] I think as entrepreneurs, nothing's ever fast enough for us.  [00:06:22] Nick: No, and that's a good and a bad thing as a business leader and an entrepreneur is, if we weren't optimistic, we would never start the business in the first place because we believe that the business is going to be successful. [00:06:34] We may minimize how hard it's going to be. We may minimize some of the challenges that we're going to encounter along the way. And that sort of maybe, cognitive dissonance or whatever you want to call it, getting into business, I think is a good thing, but you then have to then have the grit and the resilience and the sophistication to muscle through the challenging times. [00:06:56] But I don't think I've ever met an entrepreneur that says, "I made more money faster than I expected to." It's usually longer. "I didn't make as much as I had hoped for when I first started out." And when reality sinks in, some people give up and go back to their corporate grind and other people just stick it out and keep pushing forward. [00:07:13] Jason: Yeah, I call that the fantasy stage of entrepreneurship. That's the beginning. We only see upside. It's all upside. It's going to be a success. I get property managers coming to me, potential property managers are like, I'm going to start a property management business. I'm like, "Oh yeah, how are you going to do this?" [00:07:28] And they're like, "it's going to be amazing because all the other companies in my market suck. And I'm like, "okay, what are you going to do different?" "We're going to charge less. And we're going to provide better service." I'm like, "okay, good luck with that."  [00:07:38] Nick: So yeah, that's a tough recipe. Look, I have come to realize, because we're in a blue collar industry ourselves, moving furniture and picking up trash at residents' doorsteps. And execution is a differentiator if you can out execute everybody else. It's not easy. It's not the flashy, shiny objects that entrepreneurs like to chase, but we, coming through this past year, obviously, the market has shifted its leads aren't falling from the sky like they used to, we've had to assess are we doing everything that we're supposed to with every client touch point? [00:08:09] Are we consistently delivering the service that we preach in all of our markets across all the apartment communities that we service? And that I think is something that that takes reinforcement and repetition. And sometimes it can be a little bit boring, but it matters because that does make a difference. [00:08:25] I wouldn't charge less than everybody. That's not a sustainable business strategy. But if you can consistently out execute everybody else, that is an advantage.  [00:08:34] Jason: Yeah, if you can out execute everybody else, then you can probably out price everybody else, too, the leader gets to dictate the price, I think. [00:08:41] Nick: That's right, and usually it's going to cost us more to be able to out execute everybody else, unless you've got just, these magic employees that are willing to take less money to provide a better experience for the customer so that you can charge less it becomes a difficult equation. [00:08:56] Jason: Yeah. It's not too difficult to close the deal when somebody comes to you and says, "I want the other company's price, but I want your level of service." [00:09:03] Nick: That's right. That's right. And that is hard to explain in the sales process. If they, having, don't have the relationship or don't have the trust built that, that takes time. [00:09:14] Jason: Cool. Explain how Trash Butler works for people that have multifamily communities.  [00:09:19] Nick: Yeah, so as I mentioned, it incubated out of our college hunks business. We recognize this opportunity in the apartment space, particularly in a multifamily communities where there's a long walk for the residents to take the trash out. [00:09:31] If you think about the garden style apartments, even mid rise or raps, where there's a long walk to the trash room or trash shoot. And so this industry has emerged doorstep trash service, where we've signed a contract with the apartment complex and then 5 nights a week, the resident can simply put the trash in front of their door and recyclables in some markets, and then our Butler will come by and take the trash and the recyclables to the onsite compactor, which is provided by the 3rd party hauler. So it saves the resident a trip to the dumpster or the compactor each night or every other night. There's a safety component for the residents, an amenity component for the communities and looking to try to enhance the their quality of life for the residents. [00:10:10] And then it actually becomes an income producer for the apartment complex. I know that there's some, skepticism about upcharging services in the industry right now. We're staying very close to that legislation, but let's say we charge $10 a month per door to the apartment community. [00:10:24] They have the ability to, charge anywhere from $20 to in some cases, $30, $40 a month per door to the residents. So it becomes an NOI. Producer, net operating income producer for the community, and it's an amenity for the resident, many times an expected amenity for the resident. So currently, we're the second largest provider in that industry. [00:10:41] We service about 300, 000 doors nightly. We're the national partner with Graystar, of course, the big 800 pound gorilla of property management. And we started out as a side venture has all of a sudden, blossomed into a meaningful business that we've actually brought in some private equity money to help sustain that growth. [00:10:58] Jason: Yeah, brilliant. So yeah, I've lived at a complex for a while, and I had to walk forever to go drop my trash off. I hated it. It was super annoying. So I had to have some sort of stupid cart or something just to carry all my trash and like...  [00:11:12] Nick: I used to live in an apartment complex that did not have this service, and I would put the trash either on the hood of my car or in my trunk at times to drive it to the compactor, and one day, I actually forgot that I put it in my trunk, and so I passed by the compactor and this was a hot day in Florida in the summertime. [00:11:30] So of course, when I came back to my car at the end of a long work day and realized that I had failed to take the trash bag out of the trunk, it was a direct trip to the trash compactor and then the the car dealership. Oh yeah.  [00:11:42] Sarah: And then this is a service that the tenants pay for. Yes?  [00:11:46] Nick: It is. [00:11:47] So we contract directly with the community, but the tenants pay for it through their lease. So what we do when we sign up a community is we have a what we call phase in pricing where it steps up over the 1st year of the service. And so the community is never out of pocket. It's never a cost to the community. [00:12:03] The residents are either just paying a pass through, or even an upcharge to the community so that it becomes a profit center for the community. Yes, it does become an ancillary income stream for the apartment complexes. The resident is paying for it. It's part of their lease. It's not something that's opt in, opt out, but if they haven't had it before, it'll wait till the lease renews for it to be added in. [00:12:24] And so we're not charging full rate during the first year. We're stepping it up during month one, month two, month three in order to ensure that the residents are all paying for it by the time we're fully phased.  [00:12:34] Sarah: Oh, very nice. And then is this nationwide? If someone were like, "Hey, I think that's a great idea. Can I?" [00:12:40] Nick: It is. Yeah. So we're in about 30 states right now. Usually when you have a national partnership with a company like Graystar, they point to that direction and we run in that direction. So we opened up in the Northeast, we opened up in California. Our biggest presence is in the Southeast, Florida, Texas, Georgia, Carolinas. We've got a pretty big presence in Arizona. I know that's where you guys are. We're all over. We got boots on the ground. That business is not franchised. Our college hunks business is a franchise model that we have independent operators, but our Trash Butler business is all corporately operated. [00:13:12] So we have managers and and sort of area supervisors in each market that we service.  [00:13:17] Sarah: Oh, very cool.  [00:13:18] Jason: Got it. Yeah. All right. And is there a lot of competition for Trash Butler?  [00:13:22] Nick: Trash Butler and College Hunts has a lot of competition. What I always like to say, there's low barriers to entry, but high barriers to scale. [00:13:29] So there's probably a lot of similarities with the property management business as well, right? Any mom and pop can go out, hang a sign out or get a truck and say, "I'm in business." and you can do that with one or two communities or maybe one market. But when it comes to scaling out that infrastructure and providing a consistent level of service nationwide there's only a small handful that have done it and that's because it costs a lot of money to get to that scale. You've got to have software. You've got to have great people in every market. You've got to have accountabilities in every market. And that's been good and bad. There's always the people that will come in and try to undercut what we're charging or what their competitors are charging, but they can do that on a one off community or two communities. [00:14:09] But at some point their systems are going to break because they're doing all the work themselves. Like we did when we first started.  [00:14:15] Jason: Yeah. And I'm sure occasionally you see the cheap, dumb property manager that wants to like, "Oh I'll just do this myself. And I'll just make my team members, I'll make my gal at the front office desk go haul garbage." [00:14:26] Nick: And, we all know that employee retention is one of the hardest things right now to keeping good people. And you want your good people doing high value activities. At the property management level, you don't want your good people picking up trash from, 100, 200, 300 units every single night. [00:14:42] That's a surefire way to lose your good people. We think of us as an outsourced arm of property management. We pride ourselves on being an extra set of eyes and ears because we're walking the communities in the night. Night walks and when we're doing our patrol, so we're able to report back if we see a safety hazard or we see anything, suspicious activity, we can report that back in our reporting tools. [00:15:03] And so it becomes an extension for property management, not a cost center. And that's, I think, the most important piece. And there's redundancy. We've got backup butlers if a butler misses because he's sick or, has a wedding or something, I don't know. And so we send people in their place and that redundancy is important because, the residents will let you hear it if the trash gets missed. [00:15:22] That's for sure. Yeah. And they're paying for it. So they expect it to get picked up every night that they put it out there.  [00:15:28] Jason: Yeah. If trash day gets missed, there's going to be some pretty unhappy people. It's just sitting on their porch for a week. "Do I bring this back inside? Where do I have to walk it over myself?" [00:15:37] So how small of a complex do you guys take on? Like what are your sort of limits here?  [00:15:42] Nick: To be honest with you, the sweet spot for a trash butler is really a hundred units and greater. So I know there's a lot of property managers that manage smaller facilities or single family properties. [00:15:52] Usually communities like that it's smaller communities, it's more difficult to create a scalable model for the nightly doorstep trash pickup service. But we do see a lot of partnerships with our College Hunks business and the single family rentals the smaller apartment complexes where there's tenant leave behinds, or they want to have a move in special, so they'll contract with our College Hunks location in their market to move the resident in or move the resident out because the move in and the move out are two very critical touch points of the overall living experience as it relates to a community. And so I think the property manager may, in some cases, undervalue the importance of that high touch experience, especially on the move in when they're moving out, unless they're moving to another 1 of your properties. "Have a great day. Sorry to see you go." But when they're moving in, you really want to make that a special, memorable, positive experience so that then it reinforces the positive experience they have while living there.  [00:16:45] Jason: Now, normally trash pickup by the garbage companies is weekly, but you get, you mentioned nightly that you're doing this. [00:16:52] Nick: So we're doing the butler service nightly. We're not taking the trash off property. We're taking it from the doorstep of each resident to the onsite compactor. So if you think about it, the compactor pickups are still going to be weekly but the trash can be picked up from the residents doorstep on a nightly basis, typically 5 nights a week. [00:17:09] This kind of industry standard is Sunday to Thursday night. And so that's where this is becomes a very attractive amenity because if your trash fills up, you got to take it out and you want to wait until the trash day or whatever. You can put it out five nights a week and the butler's gonna take it to the onsite compactor. [00:17:24] Jason: Nice. . Yeah, that makes it really convenient. Okay. Got it. Cool. What do property managers typically. Ask about this service that I haven't asked yet? [00:17:35] Nick: Ah, so what we like to do is we boil it down to three very simple things. What's most important in this service, the doorstep amenity is the trash going to be picked up on time? [00:17:45] Is it going to be consistent? And is it going to be clean? In other words, is the trash butler not going to leave a mess or loose trash and all those sorts of things. And so we actually have what we call A 3x guarantee of Trash Butler, where we guarantee that those 3 things are going to be 100 percent consistent. [00:18:02] If not, we're going to make it right financially by reimbursing for the night, or in some cases, the week. And so I think that's really important. Another question that we actually make sure we emphasize is that there are some companies that do this that will use independent contractors and we recommend steering away from that because there's a level of liability and also accountability that's missing if you've got independent contractors picking up the trash five nights a week on your community. And so having a W 2, uniform, background check butler that's walking the hallways, walking the breezeways, picking up the items is really critical as well. So those are usually the most consistent questions. [00:18:41] I think not a lot of not all property managers really know how to charge the residents back for the service. So we try to pride ourselves on being revenue consultants and sustainability consultants as well. Not just the doorstep vendor for picking up the trash. And so I think, creating that partnership with any of the vendors is really critical, for your listeners not just our category but anybody who they're working with is having that trust and go to relationship. [00:19:04] That they can, rely on. It's not just an invoice, it's not just a contract, but there's actually a relationship there to ensure that, stuff is getting done when it needs to get done. And again, that goes with maintenance, that goes with roofing, that goes with insurance which I know is a huge issue, with properties these days. [00:19:21] And I think that we want to be a piece of that overall equation.  [00:19:24] Jason: Yeah. One bad independent contractor story could probably destroy a property management company. It certainly could destroy a relationship with one particular multi family complex or with that particular owner, but it could destroy a business if it were serious enough. [00:19:41] So that's right. That's right. Yeah. So related to that, how do you vet your butlers?  [00:19:47] Nick: So we prided ourselves both in our college hunts hauling junk business and our trash butler business on really being a culture first team member driven organization. And what I mean by that is we want to get great people. [00:20:01] It's a blue collar industry, but we want to get people to have pride of ownership of the work that they're doing. So it starts with the recruiting, our job posting, our recruiting machine, our interview process, our background checks, our reference checks, and then our onboarding. Our onboarding and retention is all about, we say, enrolling our team members in either the Trash Butler way or the College Hunks way of doing business. [00:20:24] And so I think it's important anytime you're hiring employees that you've got a system and a process. For identifying who are the type of people you want to bring into the organization because that's going to help define the culture and we always say culture drives behavior. Behavior drives results. [00:20:38] And so if you're just picking up any body off the street to fill a hole, you might get somebody good, but chances are, they're not going to be. Aligned with the core values of the company, the purpose of the company. And so we've viewed ourselves as our secret sauce as being able to recruit a widespread labor team decentralized across the country, train them, onboard them and retain them to go out and provide a good service on a consistent basis. And so I think again, relevant to your listeners and their businesses as they think about who they're hiring or teams that they're developing having a set of core values that you would abide by having a long term vision of what you're trying to become as an organization, what you want to be recognized for as an organization. [00:21:21] And then and then work to the present, the action items that you're going to take to, to ensure that those values are upheld and that the vision is becoming a reality.  [00:21:30] Jason: Yeah, that's that's so in alignment with the stuff that we teach, you mentioned culture, behavior results. [00:21:35] And when we focus on helping clients figure out their hiring systems, we focus on what I call the three fits, which is culture first personality fit, which relates to behavior and then skill. And skill's the only one that you really can move the needle hugely on. Usually it's about finding people that match your culture, that share your values, and then finding somebody that is the right personality fit to succeed in the role, and then you can train them. [00:22:01] But most business owners do the opposite. They're like, let's just find somebody with the skill.  [00:22:05] Nick: Somebody who knows how to do it. Yeah you're 100 percent right. There's a mantra. I'm sure you've said it probably is, you hire for attitude, you train for skill. And if you can hold true to that now, look, obviously they have to be capable and competent of learning the skill. If you're providing them the tools to do the work and they still can't do it, then there's a competency gap there that's missing. And you, you have to have, we like to say results based, performance based objectives, but you also have to have good people who align with your values because, if you've got somebody who's not good at the job, but a really good person, ideally, you could train them or find a seat for them to fill. If they're a bad person, but good at their job, then you feel handcuffed and it becomes this poison seed and an apple pie that ends up making the whole thing rotten. [00:22:56] Yeah, I want a team that can perform on the field, but you've got to have a good dynamic locker room. You can't have somebody in there that's upsetting the team dynamics, and that's where leadership comes in. That's where the leader of the organization has to champion the values, has to champion the vision, has to champion the culture, has to hold people accountable, especially their fellow leaders about, what are the behaviors that we value in our organization that matter to us? [00:23:24] Jason: Yeah, love it. It's got to be pretty daunting task to run a large empire, especially in a blue collar industry of people to make sure you've got good leadership. Managing good people and a good hiring process.  [00:23:38] Nick: Yeah. It's like I said it was a 20 year overnight success for us and it never gets easier. [00:23:43] Maybe, new level kind of different devil, but it's it's a lot of fun growing a business and embracing those challenges along the way. But, you hit it on the head, having the right leadership team to help support the founder of the entrepreneur in the journey. [00:23:58] And another thing that I think your listeners probably can relate to is along the way as their business grows is sometimes you're going to outgrow your leadership team, which we've gone through, multiple layers of that. And it's not easy because somebody who helps you get from, 0 to 20 properties may not be able to take you from 20 to 100 properties or somebody who took, in our business that took us from, 0 to 50 franchises or or what have you. [00:24:22] And there's a lot of parallels between our trash Butler business and property management. And so I'm sure we're facing the same sort of things and, making sure that you've got folks that... that's probably the hardest part is when they fit the culture, but the business starts to outgrow them. [00:24:33] And so that's why leadership development is very critical and also identifying the skill sets to make sure they're built for the longterm.  [00:24:41] Jason: Yeah. It said that the number one indicator of success is actually intelligence. And if somebody has enough intelligence, they can rise to different levels of competency and improve. [00:24:53] For example, like somebody might have a good executive assistant and maybe someday they're CEO, but I've had some assistants in the past that were not capable of that. They just weren't right. And then I've had some that were able to rise to different levels of, management. [00:25:06] And I think being able to, I think it's a knack or a talent to be able to identify that light because you can't just give people intelligent tests.  [00:25:14] Nick: Although they, they do have some different tests out there. Now there's the wonder liquid, which I think is what the NFL uses. [00:25:18] We use predictive index, which has a cognitive test and then also a personality profile matching, it's not an exact science, but it definitely provides another data point. Because hiring is probably the toughest thing. Even the sports teams get it wrong half the time, they can actually see the person playing on the field and they know from the other coaches, what type of person that individual is. [00:25:40] And yet they still draft the wrong player or sign the wrong position. And we got to give us, give ourselves a little bit of a break too, because our managers and our franchise owners who view the leadership role as a blessing rather than a burden, I think are the ones that are going to see the most success because they embrace the challenges of turnover. [00:26:01] They embrace the challenge, teaching their team members or empowering their team members to tackle new obstacles. They embrace the fact that maybe certain individuals on their team might have to be layered underneath the next layer of leadership. And so I think that's I think that's something that we got to keep reminding ourselves also as entrepreneurs. [00:26:17] Jason: We've, we partnered here at DoorGrow for DoorGrow Hiring with an AI assessment company before AI was big. And it's pretty spot on and amazing at identifying people that are the right culture, personality, and intelligence level. I used to use Myers Briggs, human design, Wonderlic DISC, and I would get a pretty decent picture of a person incorporating all of these things, but I had to know all these different systems and and I can hire with pretty good accuracy. [00:26:46] And so we started testing against this AI tool and it got the right candidate every time. And it was pretty obvious in the tool. We now use it with clients and it does a really good job. So it's pretty awesome. Very cool. That's how I got my current assistant, Mar, who's awesome. And I think all of our last several team members. [00:27:03] Nick: So yeah, it's pretty cool. Are you able to share the AI tool or is that proprietary to you guys now?  [00:27:08] Jason: So we've partnered with a company called BRYQ, B R Y Q. And yeah, it's super cool. So it's usually not affordable for the small business owner.  [00:27:17] Nick: Got it. So you guys have like an enterprise platform for, because you do recruiting as well? [00:27:22] Jason: Yeah, we help property managers with the hiring and recruit recruiting piece. 'cause if you get that wrong, that's a $10,000 minimum mistake. Minimum. And plus the opportunity cost of the money that you're just not going to get because they didn't do as good of a job. And I've seen it at the multimillion dollar level, most business owners just doing Russian roulette in hiring until they finally get a good team after a decade,  [00:27:41] Nick: I've been guilty of that myself.  [00:27:42] Jason: So me too. Yeah we're the summation of our mistakes when it comes to success. Super cool to have you here on the show. What should property managers know about the College Hunks Hauling Junk? How could that benefit  [00:27:54] Nick: them? [00:27:54] Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that our college hunks business is nationwide. We have almost 300 franchise owners in that business. We're in about 40 States. And so that business is local moving as well as we call bulk trash removal. So it's not just homeowners that we're moving. [00:28:10] It's not college campuses that we're moving, but we're moving anybody that's moving from point A to point B, whether that's a business, an apartment, a resident, a homeowner. And everything in between and we also do junk removal or bulk trash removal. So we're really the only one stop solution that can do both the move and the bulk removal as one brand, one company. [00:28:30] And I think it's important for apartments and multifamily in general, because you want to know that the individuals and the companies that are coming onto your property are insured, have a reputable, accountable brand behind them. And so we've started to see a lot of traction with apartment partnerships where we've become this preferred mover for them to recommend to the residents in the moving leasing packets. So they know that, the trucks are going to be branded. The property is going to be protected. The elevators or stairways are going to be, wraps that are not damaged. The individuals are going to be properly insured, so there's no injury, no injuries, properly trained. [00:29:09] We're not going to be blocking resident cars with the moving van, which, makes everybody upset. We've got a whole national platform and local platform for partnering with property managers. To be their go to solution for moving the residents in and out as well as the tenant leave behind the bulk trash removal, clearing out, for the turns. [00:29:28] And whether that's, corporate removal or just furniture removal, we have a partnership with goodwill where we can donate anything it's reusable. So I think that's something that maybe a lot of property managers don't realize is our College Hunks Hauling Junk and moving business is a great resource for property management in general. [00:29:44] Sarah: That's awesome. That was one of the things that was so frustrating is just waiting on the junk removal. Like it's finally vacant. Go! And sometimes they're like, "yeah, I'm a week out."  [00:29:55] Nick: Yeah. And we can do same day, next day. And look, there's going to be a wide range of prices on junk removal. I know that, there's a budget consciousness and property management. [00:30:03] I get that. Anyone with the truck can come and claim to do junk removal, but he might not answer the phone the next time you call him, or he might be a week out or he might say he's coming and not come. We've got a national call center, a national booking platform, a national accounts program. [00:30:18] So we've got responsiveness and that's something else again for your listeners. Nine out of 10 service companies don't even answer the phone. And so it's something as simple as just making sure the phone gets answered when people call if you've got a property management company, making sure your phone, you have somebody, even if it's an outsourced third party, answers the phone when your residents call or answers the ticket when, the client calls. That goes a long way. It's simple and often overlooked, but it gets back to what we talked about earlier about just being able to out execute what other people aren't doing.  [00:30:48] Jason: Yeah. That's the foundation of decent customer service is accuracy and availability, according to the Gallup polls customer satisfaction pyramid that they had in one of their books. [00:30:59] And if you're perfectly accurate and perfectly available. They don't notice you like that's just default. They just assume that should be done. So it's a math that it's partnership and then advice. And so when you get to that level where you're giving advice, like you had mentioned, like helping them with their fees and helping them figure out how to make money off of this and get the NOI, that's where you're at an exceptional level is when you get to that peak of partnership and then advice. [00:31:25] Nick, this has been a really cool, appreciate you coming here on the show. How can people get connected to College Hunks Hauling Junk and a Trash Butler?  [00:31:36] Nick: So the best way for Trash Butler, really simple, TrashButler. com and for our College Hunks hauling junk and moving business, really simple, CollegeHunks. com. So TrashButler. com, CollegeHunks. com, that's for the doorstep trash and recycling amenity as well as the moving and junk removal partnership opportunity and and look, I appreciate you having me on. I think it's awesome what you're doing to help, empower and motivate and inspire and elevate the property management industry because it's a great industry. And it's one that is right for people to continue to elevate and improve upon.  [00:32:07] Jason: Awesome. Thanks, Nick. Appreciate you being here on the DoorGrow show.  [00:32:10] Nick: Thank you.  [00:32:12] Jason: Thanks for being here. All right. So if you're a property management business owner, you're wanting to grow and scale your business. [00:32:18] Reach out to us. You can check us out at DoorGrow. com or go to join our community and hang out with a bunch of property management entrepreneurs and find out if we're legit and see what everybody else is doing. Go to DoorGrow club. com, and hopefully we're talking and working together soon. Bye everyone. [00:32:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:33:03] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Money can't buy love, but it can certainly start some spicy debates between you and your better half. In this episode, we're digging into the financial face-offs that make Monopoly fights look like child's play and exploring some money minefields that can test even the most solid relationships. Listen in as we explore how to resolve some of the most common financial sources of tension between couples.   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com if you've got questions or concerns about your retirement strategy or lack thereof.   This week we're going to be talking about 'til debt do us part, resolving potential financial sources of tension between couples, because let's be honest, married couples fight, and often it's about money. That's usually the number one reason that we get into arguments. So we've got five that we want to identify and talk through a little bit and try to hopefully shine some light on some places where we can talk about some of these things and maybe get onto the same page and not have these arguments. Because a lot of times these things happen in front of advisors the very first time.   Guys, not too long ago, I was just chatting with another advisor, who said he was sitting down with a married couple, they were talking, they were going over the stuff, and they were pleasantly surprised about some extra money that they were going to have. The husband says, "Great, we're going to buy an RV and travel the country," and the wife looked at him and said, "Since when? You've never ever brought this up before." So it was the first time she had ever heard it. So we want to make sure that that's not happening. We want to try to have these conversations, ideally with each other before we sit down with an advisor, but certainly that's going to happen as well, because you guys, as you know, often wind up having to be a little bit of marriage counselors sometimes when it comes to dealing with finance in front of folks. That's going to be the topic this week. We're going to get into it.   Nick, how you doing buddy?   Nick: Doing well. Doing well, thanks.   Marc: Yeah. You ever run into that situation where a couple said something in front of you and you could tell the other one was completely caught off guard?   Nick: Oh yeah. Yep. Yep. It's-   Marc: Par for the course?   Nick: Yeah, that's when the couple's therapy hat goes on.   Marc: That's right.   Nick: Probably a lot of advisors don't work in teams like John and I do, oftentimes, and I would say one of the things that it helps with the most is just being able to pick up on the social cues a little bit easier from both people, just because people, depending upon their personality, they may show you a lot with their expression.   Marc: Yeah. Little tandem action there. John, you're married. I'm married. Married couples argue, right? And money's usually the big deal.   John: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Speak for yourself, Mark. [inaudible 00:02:15] aware of it. It's all roses over here.   Marc: Your wife's listening, that's right. Make sure you don't say anything, yeah. But it does happen, right? And money's the number one argument point. So, let's talk about these five that we've identified here that people tend to run into in y'all's industry.   Risk tolerance, if I start that first one, risk tolerance in investments. This is pretty simple. If you're talking about two people, there's a good chance one feels one way about something and the other one feels the other way, especially when it comes to being married couples. So one person may be more aggressive with the portfolio and one's not, right? That simple.   John: Yeah. This does happen quite a bit because everyone has different risk tolerances, personalities, and how they react to the market. What we typically do in this situation is each person will fill out their own risk tolerance questionnaire, and that gives us understanding of how to invest each portfolio. And if it's a joint account, we usually have a discussion of, "Hey, how does this fit in the overall plan and the strategy?" So, again, hate to sound like a broken record, but we really try to have the plan dictate how much risk we should be taking, and then obviously the risk tolerance comes into play. But what we do in this situation is we take account both risks' levels, and then we'll try to incorporate that into the plan and make sure that it's in line with what we're showing for numbers.   Marc: Yeah. This is pretty basic one here, but we want to make sure that both parties are feeling comfortable with the risk that they're taking. It's just that simple. So to not have the argument, you don't want to have the portfolio 90% in the market, for example, just as throwing numbers out there, if the other person's tolerance is only going to be comfortable with half of that or less than that. So you want to have those conversations. It's also good to work with an advisor who can help you go through. And this is why another piece of the importance of both parties being involved with the financial planning process, so that they both are getting their needs met, as well as understanding what's happening and knowing what their plan is. So that's the first one.   Nick, let's talk about the second one, retirement age. My wife and I are five years apart, and she jokes all the time, and I don't think she's joking, but all the time she's like, "You're going to retire five years before me and I don't think I like that," because she just doesn't want to see me goofing off and having fun while she's going to work. Understandable, but something you got to talk about.   Nick: Yeah. It's definitely something that comes up quite a bit. It's interesting, honestly, it varies quite a bit from couple to couple. I've seen it go from anything from one person really enjoys their job more than another and they plan to work longer and they're comfortable and happy with that. In the last few years, we've had people shift to working from home and that has kept them in the job longer. They don't have to do the commute anymore. We've even had clients move maybe a little further out into the burbs because of it and start their adjustment to retirement by being in a quieter area, that sort of thing.   Also, in a funny way, sometimes couples are like, "We need to ease into this whole spending all this extra time together sort of thing. So us doing it at the same time may not be best for us as well." Then purely from a financial standpoint, there could be a significant age gap or maybe at least three to five years where the cost of health insurance, those sorts of things for the younger one, could make a significantly negative impact on the overall plan if they were to retire early. And so they just do it. They continue to work just for that reason alone.   Marc: Yeah. So you've got to have those conversations to sort that out a little bit so that you don't have that argument or that fight over what's going on, things of that nature. Again, this could be an easy one, but it also may not be depending on the age disparity, or even just from the financial standpoint of figuring out the ideal way to do this.   John, let's go to number three for you here on legacy for the family, for heirs or whatever the case is. I joke with my daughter all the time, we only have the one, but I joke with her, I'm like, "I'm not leaving you anything but a credit card statement." So she's expecting to get nadda. She knows that's not true, but for folks who have multiple kids like yourself, it could be simple, where one party wants to leave them a whole bunch and the other party doesn't, right? "We worked hard for this. We want to enjoy our retirement with the money that we put together. The kids are doing fine, so I don't want to leave as much." And that's certainly the source of tension between a married couple, if one's wanting to give a lot and one's wanting to give a little.   John: Yeah, this is probably, I would say, my planning career here, the biggest tension one I've seen actually, because if you're setting aside money to leave for a legacy and you're not spending it, that can make a big impact to what you do in retirement. So, again, the planning does help this out where you start to kind of see it. But this is definitely one where I would say it's a conversation to have in making sure that everyone is on the same page as far as what is the goal for leaving a legacy to kids or grandkids?   Marc: Yeah. And the grandkids can certainly be another whole equation in that too. Although the funny thing is, is couples tend to get on the same page about the grandkids. It's like, "The heck with the kids, just give it all to the grandkids." But, again, you've got to really talk about how you're going to separate that out.   Nick, do you see that as the biggest one as well? As John's mentioned, that's the thing he's seen the most in his career. Do you see that quite often as well?   Nick: Yeah, I would agree with him on that. That's definitely the case for me as well.   Marc: Yeah. It's, again, "Let's leave them as much as we can. No, they're doing just fine. We've given them everything throughout their life. I'm not leaving them that much." That's what my wife and I joke about with our kid. We're like, "I'm not leaving her nothing. We've given her tons of stuff. She's doing well on her own. She doesn't need any of the stuff that we have. We're going to enjoy our retirement ourself." So, we don't have big fights about it, but you could.   John: Mark, actually, one thing that I've seen at work is a kind of in-between, if this debt does become a sticky point, is I've seen some clients that instead of leaving money, it's, "Hey, let's do some things that we enjoy with the family." So instead of just saying, "Hey, we're going to leave you this nest egg," maybe it's, "We go on a vacation and we pay for everybody to come, so we create memories versus just passing away and just leaving them a chunk of money." So that's kind of an in-between, where it's, "Hey, I want to enjoy my retirement. We'll leave it for the kids. Let's do both."   Marc: Gotcha. That's a great point. Yeah, for sure. So maybe trying to enjoy that while everybody's around is a good way of looking at that.   Let's do number four here, housing and retirement, probably the second biggest one, more than likely. "Do we downsize, do we not? Well, we raised the kids here. I want to stay here and raise the grandkids here," kind of thing. Like, "Have the grandkids come here for those great memories, but financially it makes more sense to downsize," or whatever. So there's a whole plethora of arguments that can pop up around the housing issue, Nick.   Nick: Yeah, the housing issue, from almost like a hyperlocal standpoint here, has really become quite interesting, and, to a certain extent, in other areas as well. In our area here we've had really home values post-COVID double, and then interest rates go up. So there's this stuck factor, where in theory somebody may look to downsize their home, but for what they would get for the money, the change in taxes, if there was financing involved, it's one thing if they'd be able to pay cash, but if there'd be financing involved, a lot of times that cuts into any sort of gain that they would get. So unless they're shifting out to an area that's substantially less expensive or that sort of thing, people are a little bit more stuck than they had been previously, which we see that from the standpoint and the perspective of low inventory and that sort of thing.   So we're in an interesting cycle, and it's going to be pretty interesting to see how that ages in the next few years, because we've already had some clients that had looked into downsizing but wanted to stay local, and with the pricing where it's at, it just didn't end up making financial sense. The downside of that is that there's more maintenance and the house is harder to keep up. So instead, they're spending money on maybe some services related to the home that they hadn't before. It's pretty interesting.   Some clients that have relocated from other areas of the country where the housing markets are higher, they've been able to have that be a downsize that's worked out well for them. But that gap used to be much more substantial. What they would sell a house for in maybe the Eastern Seaboard versus what they could buy something for here now, the gap is much smaller than it used to be. Although for some areas it's still a better value, it's changed.   Marc: Yeah, it's easy enough to get into these arguments about different things, and certainly anything that's emotionally attached, like leaving money to the kids or raising the grandkid... I keep saying raising, but spending time with the grandkids in the same home where you raised your children can certainly carry a lot of emotional weight to that. But if the finance or the math bears out in a different direction and one party's leaning towards math and finance and the other one's leaning toward emotion, can certainly lead to arguments. And also, not having the conversations until you sit down with the advisor, probably not the best way to go about that either. "We're going to sell the house." "No, we're not. We're going to stay in the house," and you guys are left sitting there going, "Oh boy, this is going to be fun." So definitely something you want to have a conversation about.   Then the last one guys, is also a pretty big one as well, which is just retirement lifestyle in general. Again, what do you want to do? I used my wife and I as an example a minute ago, I'm going to retire before she does, and she travels a lot for work. Well, she doesn't want to travel that much in retirement. She wants to be at home and enjoy her garden and so on and so forth. And I'm like, well, I'm always working from home, especially while she's traveling now, so I want to get out and do things once we retire. So we're in two different spaces. We've got to find a way to make that work as we get there. And many couples face that same kind of analogy.   John: Yeah, this happens quite a bit in understanding and getting that aligned. I think with all these topics, I'll say that just sitting down and starting a financial plan will answer a lot of these questions and making it come to light. And once you see the plan, you'll really start to determine, "Hey, should we downsize? What can we leave to the kids?" Retirement age, et cetera. And then also, "What are the things we can do in retirement?" It really opens up the conversation.   Just kind of give you scenarios here. I just had a client that, she, herself, her goal was to hike the Appalachian Trail. She just did about half of it, and the husband didn't want to do that. She did it, and then he would actually meet her at certain spots in the trail and they would hang out and then he'd fly back home. But those are things that she wanted to do, and she's not the only one. I have some other people like that as well. If it's that drastically of a difference, some people might do things solo off their bucket list. But the majority of the time, I'll say, maybe we've been fortunate that we've worked with people that will actually compromise and work with each other, even if they have different bucket lists in retirement.   Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Nick, you want to chime in on this one?   Nick: Yeah, it's really an interesting dynamic. I see it now more with my parents who both retired during COVID. The caveat with them is that my grandmother lives with them so that puts some restrictions on what they can do. We have a lot of clients who have that same sort of situation, which is also another reason for people to be strategic about the things that they want to do, and be able to plan around that sort of thing.   As an example, for my parents, I have an uncle that's going to fly down and stay with my grandmother for a week, and they're going to go travel a little bit, go out west for a wedding, and be able to enjoy that time. So, people that tend to be homebodies too, I think I've seen maybe struggle a little bit more than others. I would just say that any sort of engagement, hobbies, things to get you out of the house, all those sorts of things, we've seen have a very positive impact on people's energy levels and how much they're able to actually enjoy retirement.   Marc: Yeah. Well, and again, these are five big places where we can certainly argue about money when it comes to our finances, sources of tension. Whether it's arguing over how aggressive or not we are with our portfolio, whether it's what kind of age we want to retire at, the legacy to leave behind, where we're going to live, or just what overall retirement's going to look like, why have this be a source of tension when we can have a conversation with each other? Hopefully we've done this already, but again, many times couples, they know they're going to fight, so they try to avoid, or maybe they're not as truthful, guys, as they might be with their partner when it's just them. But sitting down in front of advisors like yourselves, now they're a little bit more comfortable because they feel like they've got this mediator who doesn't have a vested interest in the fight. They're just there to help provide the financial information. Is that fair?   John: Yes.   Nick: Yeah, I would say so.   John: Yeah, I would definitely agree with that.   Marc: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel better about doing that in front of an advisor, but again, try not to catch your partner off guard by never having this conversation with them and just springing something on them. Talk about it, and work your way through it, and hopefully maybe use this podcast as a catalyst if you need that, if you're having trouble with your spouse, and just say, "Hey, listen to this." Maybe this will get you guys talking or whatever. And then sit down with a qualified pro like John and Nick to go through the process and see what it is that you need to do to tackle these items and get onto the same page. So reach out to them, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's where you can find them online. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, pfgprivatewealth.com.   You can find Retirement Planning Redefined on Apple, Google, or Spotify. Whatever podcasting platform app you like to use, just type that into search box, or again, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. Guys, thanks for hanging out and breaking this down a little bit for us this week. I always appreciate your time. For John and Nick, I'm your host, Mark, we'll see you next time here on the show.

Get ready for part two of our Retirement Cash Flow series! This time, we're diving into the income side of the equation. In our first two episodes, we tackled the ins and outs of your expenses in retirement. Now, it's all about understanding the crucial role of income analysis. We'll uncover the secrets of guaranteed income versus the uncertain stuff and shed light on the consequences of retiring without a clear income plan. Don't worry if you're feeling lost - we've got your back with practical solutions and expert guidance. Tune in and take charge of your retirement cash flow!   Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Welcome into this week's edition of the podcast. It's Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth, back with me again to talk about mastering retirement cash flow. So we're going to dive into the income side of the equation here a little bit on these things that we need to discuss, and go through this crucial role of income analysis. And we'll talk about, hopefully, some ways to highlight some points to think about when it comes to making sure you've got that cash flow taken care of. Because clearly, we've got to have income in retirement when we're no longer getting those paychecks. So that's on the docket this week on the show. Once again, guys, thanks for being here. John, what's going on buddy? John: Oh, not too much. Just starting to get this Florida heat hitting me and we're only about a month into it, but I think I'm already tired of it. Mark: Already tired of it? Yeah, you got a ways to go if that's the case. What about you, Nick? How are you doing, my friend? I know you're doing a little moving. Moving's always fun, right? You getting that all worked out? Nick: Yeah, yeah. Well, luckily the move wasn't too bad, but pretty much settled in and I got a little bit of break from the heat in July after going up north for a little bit, like I tend to do during the summer. Mark: Oh, yeah. Although it's been hot everywhere. It was probably hot up there too, wasn't it? Nick: It was, it was. But it was, for sure, cooler and the humidity less. Mark: Yeah. That's the kicker. Yeah. Nick: We definitely had some warm days for sure, but I do enjoy being able to go on the fresh water up there, because I don't do fresh water in Florida. And it's not like I go to the beach that much anyways, but the water at the beaches here right now is just insanely hot. It's not even worth going in. Mark: It's like you get in the bathtub. Nick: Yeah, yeah. It's ridiculous. Mark: You think, "The ocean! I'm going to cool off." No, you're not. But yeah, well, good. I'm glad you guys are doing all right. So let's get in and talk about this cash flow thing here a little bit. Why is understanding income, guys, in retirement critical for the stability of your financial strategy, and what could happen if you don't have that clear picture? Nick: Yeah, so I was actually having a conversation with a client earlier today and really kind of emphasizing ... We emphasize this with our clients quite a bit, that it's super important to have income. Obviously, income is king in retirement, but not completely in lieu of liquidity, of having other funds. So this one client had good direct income sources and then had a decision to make on a pension, on whether to lump sum, roll over or take it as an income. And because of the overall financial strategy, for her it made sense to take lump sum, roll it over into an IRA. And that would kind of give her the balance of having assets that she can dip into, versus just a stream of income that would limit her on other things. Creating that balance is different for every single person, but we really try to emphasize trying to make sure that you understand the different forms of income, and balancing that with making sure that you have access and accounts that are invested, but are also liquid. Mark: Yeah, okay. I mean, that makes sense, clearly. And so, when we're thinking about the stability of income streams, John, what are some examples of different sources? I mean, there's some that are pretty obvious, but we want to make sure we have more than just one, clearly. So what are some of the things to think about? John: Yeah. You definitely want to analyze where the money's coming from. I know the last podcast, we were talking about expenses, and that's really where you start, is getting to understand, "Hey, how much am I spending?" And the next step is, okay, now that I'm spending this, where's my income coming from to cover those expenses? And you want to make a clear picture of understanding what your income sources are, because the biggest risk going into retirement is making sure you do not outlive your money. And part of that is understanding, "Okay, where is my income coming from? And how do I make sure that I maintain my lifestyle without running out at age 80 years old, and now all of a sudden I'm looking to get a job at 80." Mark: Yeah, nobody wants to do that. So we're talking pensions, right? IRAs, 401(k)s, social security, annuities, so on and so forth, things like that. Is it advisable to try to rely more heavily on one versus the other? And I think for many years, John, people would kind of say, "Well, social security's going to make up half or more", but I don't know that that's the reliable source we want to go with anymore. What do you think? John: Definitely not, no. Especially with ... Not that anyone's done this yet, but a lot of talk of updating the social security program, cuts and things like that. You definitely want a good balance of retirement income sources, because if, let's say, there was an update to social security, you'd want to have something in your back pocket where you can say, "Okay, that's okay, that's not going to affect me too much. I can pull from this income source." Nick: And things like understanding ... One of the things that we walk people through as far as if they're taking distributions from their retirement accounts, as they're leading up to retirement, going over the whole concept of a safe withdrawal rate, being around 4%, maybe 4.5%. Rates are a little bit higher, but we don't know how long they'll stay that way. That helps people get a little bit of a grasp of how much money they can take from their investments safely, and look to make sure that any other sources kind of fill in the gap. Mark: Let's talk a little bit about some of those guaranteed sources versus non-guaranteed, Nick, I'll let you kick this off for a second here. What is a guaranteed income and what's the difference between that versus non-guaranteed? Nick: Sure. The way that we would look at something such as the term "guaranteed income", although there are issues with social security for the most part, we look at that as a guaranteed income source. That may be something that we toggle down as far as the percentage that they would receive, but we would look at that as a guaranteed income source. If they implemented an annuity strategy, dependent upon the type of strategy that it is, that could be considered a guaranteed income source. That would be something. It's always important to point out to them that, although the history is pretty strong for insurance companies, when it's an annuity, the guarantee is provided by the insurance company itself. So that's something that's important to know. Pension plans are usually considered pretty safe and a guaranteed source of income. Mark: Yeah. I mean, non-guaranteed is going to be ... I mean, when we think about a normal 401(k), right, where we're just pumping money away, but unfortunately, if you've got it weighted in the market or things of that nature, it's not necessarily guaranteed. If you're risking it, by having exposure to the markets, then that's where that non-guarantee comes from. Correct? Nick: Correct. Yeah. For example, the conversation I had earlier with the client as far as ... Because the question that she had was exactly that. Like, "Well, hey, if I do this lump sum rollover, is that guaranteed like the pension is?" And of course the answer is no. But I also did kind of point out to her, and this was somebody that doesn't have a spouse but has kids, that, hey, this single life option is guaranteed for your life. But if you pass away within five years, you haven't even gotten close to the lump sum balance and nothing would pass onto your children. So that's something else that can come into play, where the word "guarantee" can be tricky, because it can guarantee certain aspects, but not others. Mark: Right, yeah. And so John, listeners have probably heard of things like paycheck versus playcheck, right? So if we're talking about explaining, and as you mentioned, we did some expenses on the last show. If you can walk through some of the ways that we might do that. I would think that we would want to try to use our guaranteed income sources to cover, which would be our paychecks, to cover all the have-to-haves in life. And then we use the non-guaranteed, possibly the playcheck side, as the fun items. I guess every situation is different, but is that a simple way to break that down? John: Yeah. So your paycheck would be associated with your fixed expenses, the things you need. Your necessities, things that you really need to make sure that are covered. Taxes, groceries, things like that, that you cannot do without. Mark: Rent. Electricity. John: Yeah, exactly. Your playcheck is obviously, as you mentioned, discretionary income, your wants. Let's put it that way. And what we do when we're doing the plan, and everyone's situation's different of course, but we'll have a lot of people that, let's say they're very conservative and they just say, "Hey, I want to make sure that my paycheck items are covered on a guaranteed basis. That no matter what, I want to make sure I have this covered, so I stress a little bit less about what's going on with the markets." And we can adjust the plan to basically make sure that happens for them. And then what we end up doing is, anything that's tied to fluctuation, whether it's the market or anything else, or rents, then it'll be the playcheck scenario where, "Okay, this is going to cover it." And let's say where that comes into play is, if a year is down in the market or interest rates drop, well, all right. Maybe that specific individual might not do as much in discretionary spending in that given year. Mark: Yeah. And Nick, maybe depending on how you've saved for life or how your setup is, maybe you have a pension or not, there's a possibility that you could have your paycheck cover everything that you need in retirement, or most of it, and you're really just using those accounts that you've built up, your 401(k) or your IRA or something, as something to leave to heirs. So I mean, there's lots of options out there, lots of strategies. It just really comes back to, what have you done and what kind of a saver you been, and so on and so forth. Nick: Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And for clients that we have that did retire with maybe a substantial pension, and they've been a really good saver, and they don't really dip into those investments, we definitely put together ... And their main objective is to leave money, we can work together and put together strategies to try to do that as efficiently as possible and that sort of thing. Mark: Yeah, because a lot of people will say, with RMDs for example. I mean, I can't count on one hand or both hands how many advisors I talk to that have clients saying, "Yeah, I got to take this money out for the RMD and I don't need it. What am I supposed to do with it?" But you have to do it, right? Nick: Exactly. So it's like you got to take that hit from a tax perspective, but the money could always be reinvested, it can go into a different sort of investment vehicle. There's a way to continue to have it grow. Some people will use RMDs to fund a permanent life insurance policy, to kind of shift money from a taxable inheritance to a tax-free inheritance, that sort of thing. So it just kind of depends upon, just like anything else, the overall situation and the factors that are specific to their plan. Mark: Gotcha. Well, John, let's finish off with this. So, any strategies for maximizing, maybe some non-guaranteed income? Because we often think about, or hear, John, stuff like, "Hey, get your social security maximized, run a social security analysis, make sure that you're getting all that you can there." But how do we do something similar, I suppose, in the non-guaranteed space? John: Yeah. So this will be where, I'll give you a scenario. If we're doing a plan for somebody and all they have is social security and there's no other guaranteed income, and let's just assume this person's conservative, and they have a decent nest egg where we could look at it and say, "Okay, what we could do is, from the investment portfolio, whether that's a 401(k) or IRA or a Roth IRA, whatever it is, we could pull some money out of there, put it into one of these annuity companies that provide a guaranteed income", and of course, disclosure based on their paying ability. Mark: Sure. John: And from that we can say, "Okay, here's your social security. And based on the plan, we feel that together we come up with this number, you should have x amount of guaranteed income on top of social security." And we can basically take a chunk out of the investment portfolio and put it into one of these annuity products to give, in essence, some guaranteed income. And what that typically does, it'll provide the person with a little bit of peace of mind where they say, "Hey", back to that scenario of paycheck and playcheck, "I know that my paycheck items are now covered and I feel a little bit more secure about what's happening." Mark: You're kind of creating your own pension. John: Exactly. Mark: Yeah. Okay. And again, for some folks, Nick, that's where the strategy might play off. Because some people, obviously, especially when you think about the annuity term, some people are game to learn, some people are very hesitant because they've heard whatever it is that they hear. But it could be an option for folks who don't have a lot of other resources to tap into, especially if you're going to do something like a fixed index where you're going to tie it to an indices. And that way you're kind of experiencing some of the upside, but you're also having some of that protection on the downside, so that it's not quite as non-guaranteed as it could have been if you just left it straight in the market. Is that fair, is that accurate? Nick: Yeah, annuities are always a subject that can be ... Mark: It's a hot topic. Nick: Maybe volatile, yeah, hot topic sort of thing. And the way that we tend to approach the subject is, there are so many different options when it comes to annuities. There's kind of dividing up the decision-making process between strategy and then implementation. So what I mean by that is, oftentimes, integrating in an annuity strategy for somebody can make sense to really dovetail into what John talked about. "Hey, we've got an income gap that's needed of maybe $15,000 to $20,000 a year, and hey, we can carve out this amount of money and cover that." And then we'll see issues arise in the implementation, where the advisor that they had worked with uses a product that is maybe super expensive or the guarantees are not good, or it's been misunderstood or mis-sold, or the sales charge period's a really, really long time. So the implementation is poor, and that oftentimes sets off the red flags and that sort of thing. So just like anything else, we would look at it and we tell people upfront, "Hey, this might be a strategy that makes sense for you, it may not. We think our job is to explain to you how it works so that you understand it, so that you can say yes or no. And then we move forward with whatever you feel comfortable with." Mark: Yeah, so sometimes you may have to create some alternate sources using life insurance products or different things that are out there. But again, each situation's going to be different, so you want to identify what kind of income sources you need and then where you're going to be getting them from. So if you need some help, as always, make sure you're talking with a qualified professional, like John and Nick, before you take any action on anything you hear from our show or any other show. You always want to see how it's going to relate to your unique situation. Obviously, we're all affected by the same kind of things; we're going to have expenses in retirement, we're going to need income in retirement. But how you break that down and how you're able to utilize the things that you've done through your life, are going to be different from person to person. So, get yourself onto the calendar, have a conversation with John and Nick at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. That's where you can find them online. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify, whichever podcasting platform app you like to use. Guys, thanks for hanging out. As always, I appreciate your time. For John and Nick, I'm your host, Mark, and we'll catch you next time here on Retirement Planning - Redefined.

On this episode, we will continue our conversation on what expenses may change when you enter into retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Back here for another episode of the podcast with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. On Retirement Planning Redefined, we're going to get back into our conversation from the prior episode about cashflow. We went through some categories, housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, so on and so forth, on how those expenses will change either to the plus or the minus, depending on our setup. Well, this is the time to talk about the setup. So as we are assessing our retirement expenses, we'll break these down into a couple of categories. So we're going to talk about those with the guys. John, welcome in buddy. How you doing this week? John: Hey, I'm doing all right. How are you? Mark: Hanging in there. Doing pretty well. How about you, Nick? Nick: Pretty good. Staying busy. Mark: Staying busy and enjoying. So we're taping this before the fourth, but we're dropping this after the fourth, so hopefully you guys had a good fourth? Nick, you probably went up and saw family, yeah? Nick: Heading up north to just, yeah, extended family and friends. That fourth week makes it an easier week to get away because everyone's doing stuff anyways. Mark: Yeah, yeah. It's always funny when we have the holidays and we're kind of taping the podcast ahead of time because then drop it because we're not around, so sometimes I get confused on my dates. So yeah, again, we're talking about this before the fourth about what we'll probably will be doing on the fourth. So John, are you on grill duty? Because I know I am. I'm stuck on it. John: No, no. My brother's forcing me to have a cookout at my house, so I told him if I'm providing the house, he's the one on grill duty. Mark: Okay, that'll work.   John: He's visiting from Boston, so he's excited because my other brother's down here and my sister, cousin, and actually the best man in his wedding is married to my sister, so he decided to come down.   Mark: So Marketing 101. So the second you said Boston, all I hear is these Sam Adams commercials right now, "Your cousin from Boston." Every freaking time I hear Boston, that's the first thing I think of. Or Sam Adams beer, I go right there. All through the hockey playoffs and NBA playoffs, I kept seeing those commercials so it's embedded in my brain. But hey, that's the point of marketing, right, is to be those little earworms, so you go out and buy whatever it is that you go out and buy. And speaking of that, that's my transition into the must haves versus the nice to haves. So if we're talking about those accounts, those different categories that we went through on the prior episode, guys, how do those things now play into for our cashflow? Again, cashflow is the conversation wraparound, it's the wrapper of this whole endeavor. We need to break this down. And do you guys do this with clients? Is it something you encourage them to do, because everybody's individual needs and wants are going to be a little bit differently, but do you break things up in the must-haves versus the nice to haves? Nick: I would say to a certain extent, we do. We kind of list basic expenses and discretionary expenses. Mark: So give us some musts. What's the musts? Nick: So obviously housing, healthcare, food and groceries, some form of transportation, whether it's one vehicle, two vehicles. Getting rid of debt. Those are all things that are obviously needs. [inaudible 00:03:02] Mark: Life essentials, right? Nick: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Depending upon the people, some things are discretionary. I would say most of the people that we work for can't afford to have some sort of traveling in retirement. Mark: Yeah, so is two trips a year or is it five trips a year? That's kinds how it starts to change? Nick: Yeah, exactly. Or even a big trip every X amount of years. So like a baseline travel budget of X, and then let's add one of the things that we commonly do is, let's say the travel budget is $6,000 a year from a baseline standpoint, and then every three years they want to do an additional trip of another 6,000, that's one trip. And so we can scatter that in throughout the plan and show them what it looks like and toggle that on and off. And with how we do planning, we can show them the impact of doing something like that and what it does to their plan. So for the higher tier, nice to have. For discretionary expenses, we will use our planning software and kind of show them, Hey, here's the impact on your plan if you want to do that. Because we always preface everything, it's telling people that it's your money, we're not telling you how to spend your money or what to do with your money, our job is to show you the impact of the decisions that you make. Mark: That makes sense, yeah. Nick: So let's arm you with that information so that you understand if you do these things, then let's make an adjustment accordingly. And for sometimes it helps them put into perspective where not everything is a yes or a no. And what I mean by that is, well, let's just say that there's two lifetime trips that they wanted to really do, and so they like to have a bigger travel budget, but really when you boil it down, it's like, okay, I want to make sure I go to these two places. So we make sure that we can accomplish those and make adjustments elsewhere. [inaudible 00:04:58] Mark: Yeah, because the must ... I'm sorry to cut you off, but I was thinking about this as you were saying it. The must-haves, like the housing, the health, food, you're not going to have any kind of discretionary wiggle room. Well, you don't want to. Now you could say, okay, we'll eat less food, or something like that, but that's not the goal in retirement, you don't want to go backwards. So the place typically we do make some adjustments in the cuts are in the nice to have categories. Nick: Yeah, and usually it's almost more of a toggle where even to a certain extent of, we've had conversations where, hey, if things are going really well in the markets and we're able to take advantage and take a little extra money out in years where things have gone well, that's kind of the impetus to do this sort of thing. Mark: Kind of pad the numbers a little bit.   Nick: Yeah. Mark: John, let me get you on here for, besides the expenses we covered, some of the things we went through, what are some contributing factors that will affect cashflow problems that you guys see in retirement? So all these different things, whether it's healthcare, housing, whether it's whatever, give me some bullet points here for folks to think about on things that can, not in a category per se, but like outside effectors, outside influencers, that can really cause us cashflow problems in retirement. John: The number one I'd say, concern for most people going through retirement is longevity. How long does my money need to last? Mark: And that's the great multiplier, right? Because if you live longer, it makes everything else go up. John: Correct. Yeah. So that's one thing we look at, and we do plans. We're planning for age 100, and we'll always get people like, well, I'm not living that long. But the thing is, that's always ... Mark: What if you do? John: Exactly. So it's like, Hey, listen, if you live to 100, guess what? Mark: You're covered. John: Your plan looks good. You could live to 90 and the plan looks good. So we always plan for, we again, overestimate the expenses, overestimate the life expectancy, Mark: And then you don't have to live with your cousin in Boston, right? John: Exactly. That's right. Mark: All right. What else besides longevity? John: Another big one we're seeing right now is inflation. Because with retirement, you're not getting a paycheck anymore, so your ability to earn is now gone. So your nest egg is providing that income for you and social security. And keeping up with inflation, especially the last few years has been a challenge for quite a few people. And mostly I would say for me, I've noticed my food bill has gone up drastically in the last couple of years, more than anything else is really. Because we talked about musts and nice to have, if trips go up, you could say, all right, I'm going to go on a little bit lesser trip, or not go as much, but you know, you got to eat and you got to have healthcare. So those things there are big ones to really consider going into retirement and to be aware of, is the plan [inaudible 00:07:42] Mark: Yeah, a friend of mine, for Memorial Day, we were talking about cookouts earlier, so we got July 4th, you're probably hearing this after July 4th, but how much did it cost you to buy this stuff? So a friend of mine posted a picture around Memorial Day that he bought three steaks, and he lived in the New York area, Nick, actually. And the tag on the thing was like 60 bucks for three steaks. It was like, holy moly. And I know different parts of the country are more expensive than others, but it was just where I'm at, it was like, wow. And they weren't like that impressive of a steak. So to your point, you got to eat. Nick: To be honest with you, I think there's a little bit of ... Mark: Price gouging. Nick: ... ridiculousness and price gouging going on right now from the perspective of a lot of different areas. I just got my six months notice on my car insurance, I've been complaining to everybody about it. One vehicle, no accidents [inaudible 00:08:34] John: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Nick, this isn't a therapy session, right? Mark: Well remembered, well remembered, John, from the prior episode. Very good. Nick: Yes. I drive probably 7,000 miles a year at the most and paying almost $2,500 a year for car insurance. But the crazy part is that, so okay, if it's always been high, that's one thing, but two years ago when I had switched companies, it was about 1,700. So again, we take ... Mark: Inflation. Nick: Do the math on that. I'm sorry, but 50% is not inflation, there's some 50% in two years and it's kind of wild. And then even just going, the area that we're in has been massive growth in this area, but even what the restaurants are charging, and it's just inflation impacts different areas differently. Mark: It's an excuse. I mean, just like anything, we've turned it into excuse, just like the supply chain problem issue. A friend of mine was trying to get his RV worked on and they were like, well, we're still having supply chain issues for a valve. And it's like, really, a valve on an RV, it's been three years. I don't know if supply chain issue really holds in that argument, but if companies are dragging their feet or employers, somebody's just taking long, that's just an excuse. And I think that's the same thing with the inflation. Is it real? Yes. But to your point, are some of these numbers really truly justified? But they can use that, well, inflation's bad. That's the excuse they use in order to hit you with a 50% increase. Nick: Yeah, and I'd say from a planning perspective, because people get concerned about that from a planning perspective, and saying, well, hey, we had much higher inflation last year than we did in our plan moving forward, and [inaudible 00:10:27] Mark: Are we going to be okay to survive it, yeah. Nick: Yeah, and the easiest way that we mitigate that from a planning perspective is we reprice current expenses. So in other words, repricing the current expenses allows us to take that into consideration, the increases that we've had, and then use more normal rates moving forward, which is how you more accurately display that from a planning side of things. Mark: Gotcha. All right, John, so you hit us with longevity and inflation as a couple of areas that can contribute to cashflow problems. Give me a couple more before we wrap up this week. John: Investment returns is another spot, depending on what type of plan you do or type of planning, if some people will really have their income depend on what their portfolio is returning for them. Mark: So we're talking about sequence of return risk, kind of thing? John: Yeah. So if you having a down year and there's not as much income coming in from your portfolio, well that could ultimately affect your cashflow. Or if it's a down year, and we go back to longevity of, Hey, how long is my portfolio going to last, just have a 20% dip in the market, you're going to be a little concerned about pulling out in that period of time, because once you pull out, you know, you realize those losses, and there's no more recovering [inaudible 00:11:41] Mark: Yeah, it's a double way, it's the market's down and you're pulling money out. So the truth that makes the longevity factor interesting. Okay. John: So one more thing on this. This is really important, and especially what we're seeing in the last couple of years where you have some type of plan where if you are dependent on that, you have almost like a different bucket to pull from in a time like this. So you really want to position yourself to be able to adapt to downturns in the market which could affect your income. Nick: One of the things, and I've been having this conversation quite a bit lately, is that previous to last year, for the dozen years leading up to that, rates in return on fixed or cash and cash equivalence was so low, you couldn't get any return on that money, that really people shifted predominantly, or at least in a large way, to take more risks, meaning more upside, so more heavily on the [inaudible 00:12:39] Mark: Well, because the market was going up too. We get addicted to that, so it's very easy to go, well, it does nothing but climb, it's done it for 12 years in a row, so let's keep going, right? Nick: Yeah. And a little bit of that's a circle where it's part of the reason it kept climbing, is because people were saying, well, and not just, but it's just a contributing factor where it's like, well, hey, I'm literally getting zero return here. So inflation's eating away at my money anyways, I might as well take a little bit more risk. And so earlier this year in the majority of our client portfolios, we took some money off the table because now we can get four to 5% in something that has no risk, and that lets us kind of at least take a deep breath, see what's going on, get some sort of return, where most of our plans, we use five to 6% in retirement anyways. Mark: Yeah, that's a good point. You just got to be careful, right? Because we don't know how long those rates will last either, so you don't want to lock yourself into anything too hefty either, without making sure it's the correct move for you. Especially, I'm thinking more like CDs for example. Nick: Yeah. We still target things that are short term, that sort of thing. But for a retiree, even from the perspective of, let's just use the million dollar number, there's a huge difference between five years ago, where if you wanted to do a one year CD and you could get 0.8%, that's $8,000 on a million bucks versus 5%, even just for a year, now it's 50,000 of income. I mean, one is you can't pay your bills, another one is going to be much more comfortable. So for a retiree, one of the sunny side or glass half full part of what we've been dealing with from an inflation perspective, is that at least there's a little bit more return on safer money as we try to re-plan and readjust. Mark: Yeah. No, that makes sense. So one more category here that I want to hit for just cashflow problems in retirement, John, you did longevity inflation and investment returns. I'm going to assume the fourth one's probably just the emergencies, the things that life throws at you in retirement years? John: Yeah, a hundred percent. Emergency funds, it's [inaudible 00:14:44] Mark: Got to have one. John: ... for that, because you just don't know what's going to happen. Mark: Murphy's Law's going to happen, right? John: Murphy's Law's been happening for the last three years. So basically a big one is healthcare expenses, which we touched on as a must have. So big health event could really dip into your emergency funds. Or again, especially here in Florida with the roofs, have talked to some clients and friends who basically were having homeowners insurance issues here, and then carriers are basically saying, Hey, for you to get renewed, you need a new roof. And all of a sudden it's like, what? I just go, my roof's fine. It's like, well, it's outdated, you know, you need a new one, or else [inaudible 00:15:24] Mark: And so they're not covering maybe the full cost or some of the cost, I guess, but they won't insure you. John: I had some friends actually get notices saying, your roof's too old. If you don't replace it, we're dropping coverage. Mark: Oh geez. Okay, yeah. John: So that's an emergency expense. Mark: Definitely. John: Roofs aren't necessarily cheap, so important to have an emergency fund because like you said, Murphy's Law, you have no idea what's going to come up and you want to be prepared for that. Mark: Yeah. No, that's a good point. Nick: The roof thing is pretty wild here too, because a lot of people have tile roofs down here. And depending upon the size of the house, a tile roof is going to cost you, what John? Between 50 and a hundred thousand dollars? John: Yeah, 50 to a hundred grand. Mark: Really? Holy moly. Nick: And so, yeah, and then if you're in a neighborhood that has association rules and all these other things, it can get a little squirrely. So just understanding even little basic things like that, where especially people that came maybe from up north where it's just shingle roofs and 10, 12 grand, 15 maybe, and then [inaudible 00:16:25] Mark: Yeah, I was going to say, my metal roof was like 20, and that was like eight years ago. Nick: Yeah. So there's just things like that where we always very much emphasize having an emergency fund. Mark: Yeah, definitely. All right, good stuff. Talking just cashflow issues, things to consider here on the podcast the last couple of weeks. So if you're worried about the cashflow or you're just worried about making sure your plan is accurate for the time of life you're in, especially if you're one of these folks that maybe got a plan, you're like, ah, I got a plan put together like a decade ago, or whatever. Well, it's not a set it and forget it, it shouldn't be a set it and forget it, anyway. Even insurance policies, sometimes it's very easy to get one and throw it in the drawer for 20 years and forget about it, but all those things can be looked at and reviewed and see if there's a better way to put a strategy together. So if you need a first opinion or second opinion, reach out to John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever the case might be. Whichever podcasting platform app you like, just type in retirement planning redefine in the search box. Or again, find it all online, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John, Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you next time here on the podcast. This has been Retirement Planning Redefined.

In this episode, we'll explore many of the expenses in your life that might drastically change (one way or another) in retirement. We'll break those expenses down further to see which ones are the top priorities and analyze some of the other factors that impact your cash flow in retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Welcome back to the podcast. It's Retirement Planning-Redefined, with John and Nick here with me to talk investing, finance, retirement, and mastering retirement cashflow, part one, is going to be the topic today. We're understanding just changing expenses. We're going to break this into really a two-parter here, obviously, by calling it part one. And we'll do a little more focus on some of the other things on the next session. But for today, I want to explore some of the expenses in life and how they just change as we're moving some things ... as we're moving from working into retirement. And things you guys see with your clients and how you work through that process for them. So that's the topic today. Let's get into it. John, first of all, how are you doing, buddy?   John: I'm doing all right. Getting ready for the summertime here.   Marc: If it happens. I don't know what's going on in the south. I'm in North Carolina, and we've had one 90 degree day, and it's almost July. Totally unusual for us, so it's very, very weird.   Nick: Oh, it's hot here.   Marc: Yeah. It's like two states seem to be in a weird spot. I don't know what's going on with the middle of the south here. It's very strange this year. But Nick, I heard you chime in. How are you, my friend?   Nick: Doing pretty good.   Marc: Yeah. So you guys are sweltering, is that what you're saying?   Nick: It's definitely hot, yeah.   Marc: Well, kick a little this way because I don't know what's going on. It should be warmer here than it has been. So, very weird.   Nick: Well, I'll trade.   Marc: Okay. All right. Yeah. Like today, it's ... well, we're getting a ton of rain. Today, taping this podcast, it's 72 for the high, and tonight's overnight low is 58. That doesn't happen usually in North Carolina in late July or late June.   Nick: Yeah. That is pretty surprising. That's cool for North Carolina.   Marc: Very, very weird. So I don't know, Mother Nature is off her meds, I guess. But what can you do? So let's get into this conversation, guys, about changing cash flow, before I keep going down that tangent. I've got a few parts here I want to run through. What are some of the expenses that might drastically change one way or the other, either to saving us money or to costing us more money? Whichever way you guys want to take this, whatever you've seen with your clients. But let's start it off with housing. I think housing is probably the number one expense in retirement. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but what do you think?   Nick: Yeah. I would say for a lot of people that maintain a mortgage past retirement, it's definitely a significant monthly expense. One thing that we are seeing here with the tick up in interest rates over the last 12 months, we had had conversations with multiple clients from 2018 through 2021 about taking advantage of low interest rates and keeping their mortgage and that sort of thing. And for a lot of people, that makes them feel uncomfortable. But to a person, everyone that we've talked to that has done that, now that rates are where they are, they've been pretty happy about that decision and being able to take advantage and lock in those low rates. But for those people that just naturally, with the schedule mortgage that they had, and ended up paying off the mortgage by the time they retired, that drop in expenses is usually a big help. I would say one thing that jumps out that's a reminder that we use for people is ... especially because the homeowner's insurance market here has now gone completely insane. Taxes and insurance don't go away. So I can't tell you how many times we've had a conversation where maybe somebody had a mortgage that was $3,000 a month, and they're like, well, once I retire, that 3,000 a month is going to go away. And we point out, well, hey, about half of that is. The rest of it's for taxes and insurance. So sometimes that drop in expense isn't quite as much as they thought it was going to be.   Marc: Gotcha. Yeah. And it's easy to do, even with downsizing, because the market's been high. So it's not always just lowering things just to go to that downsizing piece. John, what's your thoughts there?   John: Yeah, I would say the downsizing is a big part of it. Not only if you downsize, you might be able to get some equity out of your house there. So if you downsize, buy a two or $300,000 house, you get some cash that you could do something with. But then you start looking at smaller house, less homeowners insurance, less maintenance costs, things like that, it could really be a pretty significant savings. Especially, as Nick mentioned here, with homeowners insurance. I think mine went up like 60 or 70% in a year, which was ... ... I've heard a lot of people. At first, I thought it was just me. And then I talked to some clients, friends, family, and it seemed across the board that it just shot up.   Marc: That's hefty.   Nick: Yeah, there's a lot people that are falling between five and $10,000 a year now. For homeowners insurance down here, it's gone just wild.   Marc: Well, I imagine the big hurricane added a lot to that, right? That's probably part of it. From last year.   Nick: Yeah, yeah.   Marc: Yeah, for sure. Insurance companies are like, we got to recoup some money. How are we going to do that? 60% hikes. All right, no more work stuff. Category two on the changing in expenses. I think we probably assume for the most part that no more work stuff means we're going to save a little bit of money.   John: Yeah. So this is something that when we do planning, we definitely hit on. We have different categories of current expenses and then retirement expenses, and then we actually go one further and we're looking at advanced age expenses. But this is one where you're not commuting anymore, or at least to work. So depending on what your commute was, you could be saving quite a bit on gas, car maintenance expenses, things like that. And then the big one, I know when Nick and I worked in West Shore, was the lunch expense. Where it's like every time for lunch it's like, all right, where are we going? A good excuse to get out of the office and just get a change of scenery, you find you're going out to lunch every day. That does tend to add up quite a bit.   Marc: Oh, yeah. You can spend some dough that way, for sure. So I think in this category, we feel like ... and this one I think maybe drives a lot of people feeling like, oh, I'm going to spend less money in retirement. Right, Nick? I mean, this is one of those things. Well, I'm not doing all those things now, so I'm going to be saving money. But you're also doing more stuff because you don't have to go to work, so you may not save as much as you think.   Nick: Yeah. I would also say too, that this post-COVID work from home shift has prepared a lot more people to have a better idea of the expenses that have changed. We do have a fair amount of clients that used to commute, and no longer do. And so they've gotten a peek into what that looks like. And people are creatures of habit. Inevitably, they develop new things that they do, and usually there's other expenses that replace previous ones, but-   Marc: There's always something, right?   Nick: Yeah. But oftentimes, there are reasonable reductions in some of those work-related expenses.   Marc: Okay. Let's go to healthcare. This one here, this one to me seems like this is not going to be going into the positive. This is not going to be putting money back in our pocket. More than likely, this is going to cost us more.   Nick: Yeah. I mean, for a big chunk of people, especially if they work at a company that has pretty good health benefits, and maybe they haven't had their kids on their plan for a while, so it's just them and a spouse or them solo. Oftentimes, the shift to what we budget for post-age 65 Medicare-related premiums, oftentimes it goes up for people. So we typically budget about $4,000 a year, and we have a more aggressive inflation number that we use on that. Oftentimes, people come in less than that, especially with a high deductible plan, those sorts of things. I just had this conversation the other day with someone, where they were going to have a pretty substantial jump. And they had worked for the same company for a long time, didn't realize-   Marc: You mean a jump in the premiums?   Nick: Yes. Yep. They had worked for the same company for a long time. It was big company and had really good health benefits, and premiums were going to go up. So it can be a little surprising that way. If it's somebody that's shifting more from the perspective of, kids recently got off their plan and they're cutting back on ... maybe went from a regular health plan to a high deductible, those sorts of things. It can be a drop. But honestly, I see it more neutral or go up than I see it go down.   Marc: Yeah, definitely. John, taxes, let me hit you with this one. This is a big misnomer that's been around for years. That when we get to retirement, our taxes are just generally lower because we're not getting a paycheck, we're not making as much. But more times than not, eight out of 10 times people are not in a lower tax bracket.   John: No. Typically, they tend to be in the same, if not, maybe a little bit lower. Because what you're really trying to do when you do planning is you want to keep the person's income where it was while they were working.   Marc: Right. You're trying to fill in the ... you're shortening the short shortfall. You're pulling from our assets to make up the shortfall based on Social Security or if you have a pension or whatever those kinds of things are. So you're trying to keep the numbers basically the same, correct?   John: Exactly, yeah. So we are trying to keep the numbers the same. And we find a lot of people ... I would say we find the majority of people have most of their money in pre-tax accounts. So what you'll find is when you're pulling out of the pre-tax accounts, you're paying taxes on it. So this is really important when it comes to planning, where you ... and we harp on this constantly. It's a matter of setting yourself up to adjust. So maybe if you have some tax-free money, some after-tax dollars in some other accounts, you can really try to eliminate ... or not eliminate. But try to lower what your taxes are going into retirement. And I'll say one thing that happens quite often with clients, and this is only maybe a year or two that we see in retirement, is they just have a couple of years of just massive expenses where ... we just had someone that's purchasing a second home and they need to pull out of their retirement account. And all of a sudden, it's like in that given year, that's going to be a big tax hit. Or it's a health expense. Or I've had other ones where they want to do a remodel on their house and it's like, well, I got to pull money out of my account. And everything is pre-taxed, so they really get ... we see a significant increase in their taxes in those years.   Marc: Yeah. And that's why we want to get tax efficient, if we can. And maybe that's worth looking at, trying to maybe move some money so we don't have that tax time bomb sitting there waiting on us. Some different things. And speaking of actually that, Nick, let's go to the next one here because you can chime in, it fits well with that. Is one of the biggest things we're doing is pumping money, hopefully, especially the last 10 years of working, into our retirement account. Maybe that 401K that John was just talking about. And therefore we're growing those dollars. And that is an expense that goes away once we stop working, we're no longer feeding that.   Nick: Yeah. That deferral is usually the lowest hanging fruit of expenses or cash flow going down.   Marc: Money back in our pocket, kind of thing, right?   Nick: Yeah, exactly. That outflow is usually the biggest drop, especially if it's ... if you're talking a couple that is essentially, maybe they're both maxing out or pretty close to maxing out, they're saving around 25,000. That's $50,000 a year. Granted, that's the money that they're used to living on anyways.   Marc: Yeah. Because we weren't seeing that. When we're working, it's going straight to the paycheck ... or straight to the 401, for example. But now that we're not working, we also don't have the paycheck. So to me, is it truly a savings or is it a wash, because you weren't seeing it before either? You know what I mean?   Nick: Yeah. I think for a lot of people it's a wash. Realistically, in the day-to-day setting and from a lifestyle perspective, it tends to be a bit of a wash.   Marc: Okay. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, it's more of an on-paper reduction, more than anything.   Marc: Makes sense.   Nick: And in theory, when you start ... if you want to nitpick a little bit. The money that you defer into those plans, you still pay payroll taxes on it. So there's a little bit of a savings there. So that's something that can factor in. And one of the changes that fits in with both the tax and retirement things is a lot of times at that point in time, they're no longer claiming kids. Maybe the mortgage is paid off. So from a deduction perspective, there's also a change as well from the standpoint of what they're able to deduct versus what they can deduct in retirement.   Marc: Okay. And so what we're doing is we're talking about these categories here on understanding how our expenses are going to change, whether it's to the plus or to the minus. And then we'll talk a little bit more later on about how that's going to affect us in our overall expenses and some things to cover in ways to be more efficient in that. So let's continue on with a couple more categories here and then we'll wrap it up for this podcast. So we went through housing, work stuff, healthcare, taxes, the retirement savings account when we're no longer feeding the 401 animal. John, so you mentioned earlier travel and leisure, when you were talking about there's different things we're going to spend money on. So if every Saturday is the day I spend the most money, well, guess what retirement is?   John: Every day seems like it's a Saturday.   Marc: It's a bunch of Saturdays, right?   John: Yep.   Marc: It's Groundhog Day.   John: The more time you have, you find yourself trying to fill the gap of what to do. And we see a lot of people that are, if they're like golfing, they tend to be golfing a little bit more. Or fishing or whatever it might be. I'll see-   Marc: But that's the point, right? That's the point of retirement. It's what we're striving for. But I think the scary part is, is if we haven't budgeted for how much we're ... the activity. That's when we can maybe shortfall ourselves.   John: Exactly. Yeah. That's where it's important where you're doing a cashflow analysis for retirement. Like I said, we typically look at retirement expenses. We'll look at what the person does for hobbies and try to estimate, okay, this is what we can expect. And you always want to go over the amount, you never want to go under.   Marc: I was going to ask you that. Yeah. You want to-   John: Yeah, you always want to go over, because-   Marc: ... inflate it a little bit.   John: Yeah, exactly. I'll tell you this ... and my wife doesn't listen to the podcast. When she's at home more, I start to notice my Amazon bill goes up and packages end up at the door. So when there's a lot more downtime, you tend to say, okay, what's out there? Oh, let me go run to the store. Let me go do this real quick. And all those things add up to just added expenses, which fine-   Marc: Yeah. Well, sitting on the computer or the phone, you're just like, I'm bored, I'm not doing anything. Next thing you know, you're on some sort of shopping site because you're like, I was thinking about this or that, or a new set of golf clubs. Right, it's easy to do.   John: Home projects because Pinterest is giving you all these different ideas that you should be doing with your home. So yeah, all those things are up.   Nick: All right, John. This is not a therapy session.   Marc: No, but I mean he's right, though. I mean, it totally ... and people do that.   John: So Marc, that's coming from the single guy right now.   Marc: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. And you mentioned, you were talking about projects, DIY projects or Pinterest. We're right in the middle of rebuilding ... I'm building a billiards room here next to my office for the pool table. And it's just, scope-creep has taken over. It's like, oh, I can ... I factored in the budget. I'm like, I could do it for this amount of money. And I'm way over budget. And that's, again, if you're retired ... I'm still working. But if I was retired, that could be a real problem. If I let scope-creep get in there and I'm spending 25% more than I budgeted for this project, that could be an issue. So you want to make sure that you are inflating it, to your point. Puff those numbers up a little bit, just to be on the safe side.   Nick: Oh yeah, big time. I don't think I've seen anybody come in under budget on anything in the last three years.   Marc: Yeah. And that's with professionals, let alone doing it yourself, right?   Nick: For sure.   Marc: Okay. So that's travel and leisure. So the last one here, last category, insurance. Many people, guys, walk into retirement saying, well, I don't need insurance anymore. That's also that old standard, as far as the financial services world. Well, who needs ... why do you need insurance if your kids are grown and you don't have to replace your income because you're not worried about sending them to school. Or all that kind of stuff that you guys have heard probably a million times.   Nick: Yeah. So we'll see ... one of the most common insurances that go away, whether it's at retirement or early in retirement, is life insurance. So we obviously emphasize the fact that a death early on in retirement is the bigger risk, especially if there's outstanding debt, those sorts of things, versus later on in retirement. So sometimes we'll have people that, maybe they've got three to five years left on their term policy and the premiums aren't prohibitive. And we'll just them keep the coverage because there's still a mortgage, or just that additional money if something were to happen would be a big boost to the surviving spouse. But disability definitely goes away because disability insurance, by definition ensures your ability to work. So if you're not working, then you're not insuring anything. So that's something that drops. And then some of these supplemental policies that maybe were provided by the employer, aren't portable and you can't take them with you anyway. So some of those things will drop off. So that's definitely something that can be adjusted and adapted to reduce some of the costs.   Marc: Well, I think for every situation, insurance is one of those questions, John, that goes either way. Some people may not, when you guys are developing and looking through the plan, maybe insurance isn't needed. But then again, maybe it is. Or maybe they're using an insurance policy for the cash value policy side of things or whatever. So this one is one I think could go either direction.   John: It definitely could go either way, it really depends on the individual. And like we were just talking about here, each person, whatever is important to them will dictate whether your insurance is going to be going up or down. That's really what it comes down to is, each individual, what they value and what they want to protect with insurance and what they're ... oh, okay. I'm okay without it.   Marc: Well, and that's a good way to think about what we're going to get into for the next podcast, is really assessing must-haves, nice-to-haves, things of that nature. And then how other aspects in the financial services world could affect those categories we just ran down. So we're going to wrap it up this week. So again, these are just the expenses categories, and some major ones here to think about how they may change to the plus or to the minus with our cash flow in retirement. And we'll be back next week with the second half of this conversation. So do yourself a favor, if you haven't done so yet. Reach out to the team if you don't have a strategy or a plan in place, and get started with a consultation and a conversation for yourself. You can find the guys at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com, where you can get started today on a strategy for yourself. Reach out to John and Nick there. And guys, thanks for hanging out. I'll see you next week ... well, in two weeks on the podcast. Nick, have a good one.   Nick: See you.   Marc: All right, John. Thanks, buddy.   John: Sure.   Marc: And I'll catch you later. We'll see you guys here on retirement Planning-Redefined, with John and Nick.

  Amazon Sunsets AmazonSmile Amid Cost-Cutting  The AmazonSmile will be ending by February 20th, according to a statement from the company, as reported by NPR and others. While the program dispersed nearly $449 million to nonprofits globally, the company says that the donations were spread too thin, minimizing impact. Amazon pointed to other efforts, such as its Housing Equity Fund, which supports affordable housing efforts near its headquarters, as an example of a social impact program receiving investment. However, smaller nonprofits that received AmazonSmile donations say that the donation were helpful and would be missed. The move comes after Amazon announced 18,000 layoffs, amid a winter defined by tech layoffs across the industry. Read more ➝   Summary Time's Up to halt operations, shift resources to legal fund | ABC News  People are only just realising what happens to the money IKEA makes - and it's blowing their minds | The US Sun Founder of Seattle West African immigrant nonprofit accused of embezzling millions | king5.com  What if school was all outside, every day? N.J. ‘nature schools' take class outdoors, rain or shine.  NJ.com The Eagles thought their Christmas album would fund a toy drive. It ended up doing much more. | https://www.inquirer.com     Rough Transcript [00:00:00] George: This week on the nonprofit news feed. Well, we are talking about turning that Amazon smile upside down. I was first off, really happy to be able to come up with that subject line. Um, not as happy that this program is ending. Uh, Nick, how's it going? [00:00:42] Nick: It's going good. George, this is, I think, gonna be one of those weeks where we are just focused on, on one-liners and, and puns. But alas, I'll take us into the top story, which you alluded to, which is that Amazon Smile. The program that donated a PORs, uh, portion of the proceeds from purchases on Amazon to nonprofits will be coming to a close on February 20th. [00:01:07] This comes via reporting from NPR and other outlets. And in the history of the program, it dispersed nearly 449 million to nonprofits globally. However, the company says that the donations were spread too thin, minimizing impact. That's in quotes. Um, Amazon pointed in their statement to other efforts such as its Housing equity fund to support affordable housing. [00:01:34] Here its headquarters as an example. Of a social impact program it was investing in. However, in the articles, smaller nonprofits said that Amazon SMILE donations were helpful and would be missed. And this comes amid broader economic headwinds that the industry is facing. Amazon has announced 18,000 layoffs. [00:01:57] Tech layoffs are now commonplace across the board. Amazon Smile more like a frown these days. [00:02:06] George: I'm sad to see a CSR corporate social responsibility program of this magnitude get sunset in this way in short order. I've been looking on LinkedIn, um, the reactions, and some folks are saying, you know, good riddens, this was a distraction for nonprofits because it sort of baits an organization into becoming an affiliate marketer. [00:02:30] Meaning you get a portion of the sales based on a trackable link and you're pushing product as opposed to your purpose. , I hear that. I also see 449 million, uh, across nonprofits being something meaningful now. Yeah. You spread peanut butter too thin and it turns into nothing. Right. If I were to donate that, but like, that's still just, that's a lot of money. [00:02:55] You know, there's, um, 1.5 ish million nonprofits, so I don't, I don't know that I buy that full narrative of like, it was too small to make a difference. , it was part of, for some organizations, a balanced fiscal diet. It was a diversification of revenue streams. You know, it was something that they, they got and ideally didn't have to push too hard for. [00:03:19] So bad thing too bad. You know, I, I, I don't think that, I'm curious why, and, and I'll maybe never know the reason of like the actual, like, is this a cost cutting? Is there just a change in csr? Did they not get enough, uh, from it? Because on the same token, it actually served them as well because guess what? [00:03:42] Somebody was buying something from them. You know, it was the affiliate marketing strategy. It was actually pretty darn clever, and it worked so sad to see it. And hopefully there'll be a, another solution that arises, an opportunity that shows up for, for those organizations. [00:04:02] Nick: I agree. I. It can't have cost them that much money to run though. Like that's the thing, right. [00:04:11] George: Well, the the other thing is like you can just sign up for an affiliate link and sell things, but I think the difference also with Amazon Smile is that, You could have your supporters put Amazon Smile on their purchasing. So I had it for, for my nonprofit, and it was just, anytime I buy, I had something on Amazon. [00:04:27] A point went that way. So I, I, maybe you need to backtrack on like affiliate marketing versus actually it was adding a layer that said, for these customers, a portion of your proceeds go back to this organization. So that is uniquely different. [00:04:43] Nick: That's fair. That's fair. We'll continue to see if we hear more about this, maybe they'll roll out something different or new. Alas, we move along to our next story, and this one is from a ABC News and others that the Times Up organization, the Me Too, the organization born out of the Me Too movement, particularly the that one in Hollywood, um, has Hal. [00:05:13] Operations and is shifting remaining financial resources to the Legal Defense fund. So Times Out has had a. Go of it. Fallout from associations with Andrew Cuomo and that scandal, um, and has been something of an EM battered, uh, embattled organization rather, um, over the past couple years and is now closing doors and, and shifting that money to the legal defense fund, which does, uh, provide, uh, resources for women in, in specific industries. This is kind of a weird one because it's such a high profile organization that came up very quickly. I think there's probably some lessons to be learned here. George, what are those lessons and what is your take on this? [00:06:03] George: I wish I was smart enough to actually understand the, the full implications of of this. The different narratives that I see here, one, are the types of organizations that pop up in these. Cultural moments have a lot of headwinds. Later they start off with a disproportionate amount of attention and funding upfront, which certainly times updated and they did remarkable work, certainly around if we're looking at victims of Harvey Weinstein, and then the way that they were able to, I'd say, update the way that victims were dealt with. [00:06:44] In these cases from a legal standpoint and a lot of achievements there, but there's a certain type of what feels like immutable. What goes up must come down type of physics here, where the speed at which with which you rise to fame. also seems to all but guarantee the fall from Grace. That is kind of like the inverse Lindy effect. [00:07:15] The Lindy effect is if you have been here for this long, you'll probably continue to be here. Uh, coming from the. Run of show for Broadway, uh, productions that if a Broadway production had been on, you know, it's a, it's a wonder that cats ever stopped being on Broadway. Cause cats had been forever on Broadway. [00:07:32] And it was this, this joke of like, once you're in the line cafe, you'll sort of never be removed. Um, I've gone far from the topic, I'm gonna come back to it. So the first thought, the speed with which something rises probably dictates the speed with which it falls the next. Looking at organizations that need to sort of spin up with all of the overhead, with all of the infrastructure and hiring staffing, like to create a new organization takes a lot of, of work and wealth. [00:08:08] And the fact that now at the end of it, you know, they, they talk about, and even in this quote, very simply, the Legal defense Fund really reflects who we were, not only at our inception, but really at our core. And that's a quote from, uh, Schultzer. And that's why, you know, the, the remaining 1.7 million, which is, is quite small, uh, in the grand scheme of the size of the organization, uh, is going back to that fund. [00:08:33] And the question I guess in my mind is, you know, the fund administered by the National Women's Law Center in Washington? Which has provided and provides legal administration help to, to workers that identify as low income and 40% of people of color. I, I'm, I'm curious as to what the world would've looked like, had times Up simply been a branch of that organization, how much more could have been applied to it and the, the learnings and the staff and that ability rolled into an existing organization rather than saying, we need a new organization. [00:09:08] You know, could this have. A campaign or a program of that legal defense fund. Those are just questions in my mind, and it's, it's tough with an organization under this level of scrutiny. I, I have a hard time getting behind some of those decisions they made with, you know, Andrew, Andrew Cuomo and, and consulting, allegedly consulting with them behind closed doors that was then later revealed by reports. [00:09:33] Uh, It's tough. I think nonprofits are under, uh, a much, much greater microscope and it doesn't take much to set the, set the tide in the wrong direction because you exist at the public's. Will you rely on funding and funders and if those funders are then effectively being shown. as public donors because nine 90 s are all public. [00:09:59] We can see donors and donations. Are you then saying, oh, a large donor has to then reconsider like, wait a minute, am I supporting an organization that supported Andrew Cuomo? Not saying that that is a direct line, but all things being equal, it doesn't take much to hurt in that reputation, and it's tough for organizations that are in that frontline type of work. [00:10:17] Nick: George, I, I think that's, that's a great point. You bring up a lot of different nuances and the threads there, and it makes me think that your nonprofits have to play by different rules than businesses, right. [00:10:33] George: They do. You can't just go on an apology tour being like, Hey, sorry, we fired him. We're all back to normal. Like, nevermind that our news station. Maybe let this kind of go by the wayside. [00:10:44] Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah, I guess we'll, we'll continue to keep an eye on this story. It'll be interesting to see how that legal defense portion of it, which is still administered by, um, that, uh, the other organization, the, the woman's um, uh, legal organization, how that all pans out. Um, so we'll keep our listeners updated, but to that end, I will take us to our next story. [00:11:12] And this one comes. From King five.com and the founder of a Seattle West African immigrant nonprofit is accused of embezzling millions. Um, so. Uh, the, the gentleman in, in question, Issa I apologize cause I know I'm mispronouncing. That was the founder and longtime executive director of the West African Community Council or W A C C, which is based in Seattle. [00:11:44] Um, and after decade of service, um, he was ousted, uh, on December 16th. Accused of embezzling, which is, which is, you know, terrible, terrible, um, especially, you know, people who really, really need help. And then this long article kind of goes into it, it goes into, uh, in DA's started of the story, um, as well side of the story rather, and it kind of a complicated one. [00:12:11] But, uh, George, what's your takeaway on. [00:12:16] George: I look. Board members for this, and this is a reminder for the fiscal responsibilities that your board members take on. And I'm not saying send this article to your board members, but if you are on a board, if you are building a board, fiscal stewardship and hiring and firing the c e o, those the primary jobs and roles of a board. [00:12:38] And so I see this and I don't look at, you know, in the D and say, oh, what a bad actor. Like there are bad actors. One out of a thousand people, one out of 10,000 people are not the, you know, folks that you should be trusting. The job of the board is to hire and fire and make sure the right people are in there. [00:12:56] And the fact that this was an extra bank account started in 2014, like a secret bank account, and like hundreds of thousands of dollars going through there, you know, I'm looking at auditors, I'm looking at board members looking at that, and so paying attention to those things like, oh, it can't happen. . Um, it, it is just a function of odds and, uh, again, I wouldn't have put this in here actually if it had not been for the size of the, the embezzlement. [00:13:25] We have millions of dollars. It's, it's brutal. Uh, so it's a reminder to, to board members out there that, uh, while those finance meetings may be boring, and also the people preparing them, like, here's, here's what you're actually doing. Um, you're making sure money gets to the. The right places and you're avoiding, um, tragedies like. [00:13:45] Nick: Absolutely. I think that's a fantastic point and we always like to keep our listeners on their toes to protect themselves from this happening at their organization. I have our next story is an interesting one. Um, Georgia. Did you know that IKEA is owned by a nonprofit? [00:14:11] George: Here's the thing. I didn't know that Ike. Was owned by a nonprofit. Frankly, this is like a non-story story, but it's fascinating because, uh, you know, in the , the rep reputable, the US Sun , and this title says no Ikea, uh, people are only just realizing what happens to the money IKEA makes, and it's blowing their minds. [00:14:32] I mean, first off, a plus on a hook title. But it's funny because there is a nonprofit involved and owner of the main entity. So IKEA is actually a nonprofit organization. So the money made from those, uh, you know, fund to assemble wardrobes, uh, you know, beyond paying is, is put away into, um, a nonprofit. And the charity's big mission is to further the advancement of interior design. [00:15:01] Nick: Novo, Novo. [00:15:03] George: uh, They're putting it out there further, the advancement of interior design. I mean, you've gotta believe in that mission, I suppose. Um, I did. I didn't have anything else here. Just I thought it was funny. [00:15:17] Nick: it's really funny. So the detail is I e Ikea store stores are franchised by a company called, Inga Holdings, which is fully owned by a nonprofit organization called Stitching Inga Foundation. Um, yeah, I , it's kind of funny. I wanna do a deep dive on this. We need like a little mini documentary on what the hell's happening, but. [00:15:45] Uh, I am willing to bet there is some criticism in the wonderful Scandinavian world about, uh, whether this is truly because people are passionate about, um, easy to assemble interior design pieces, or whether this is some kind of, uh, super duper clever, uh, tax loophole that is being taken advantage of. [00:16:09] George: Yeah, I mean, look, there's some definitive, like this is a tax play very clearly. They pay according to online mba, 33 times less taxes than the average business. The Economist, the overall setup of IKEA minimizes taxes and disclosure handsomely, rewards the founding camra Cam Prad family, and makes IKEA immune to takeover. [00:16:32] So it's interesting. That when you're saying like, this is a strategic reason, like frankly as a business owner, now you have me thinking, should a nonprofit own whole whale and suddenly we don't have to pay taxes. We have, I'm gonna go ahead and say a loftier mission then to improve, I'm sorry, I want to get it accurately to, uh, to further advance, uh, the advancement of interior. [00:17:00] Further the advancement of interior design. So I would say ours has built a healthier, more just and sustainable world as an agency. I, uh, I don't know. One of the funnier quotes here is, uh, no wonder why you gotta put everything together yourself at Al Okaya, because they rely on a bunch of volunteers to put their stuff together. [00:17:20] So, you know, they have a lot of volun, big volun. I have volunteered for Ikea on more than one occasion, [00:17:29] Nick: Volunteering on for IKEA is a, a family pastime. Um, That's funny. Here's another one for you, another light story. We're, this is a good week. There's nothing too traumatic in [00:17:42] George: I mean, just, you know, massive embezzlement, half a billion dollars of CSR stopping at Amazon. This is a good week, [00:17:49] Nick: Yeah, this is, [00:17:50] George: on [00:17:51] Nick: this is a good week for [00:17:53] George: this. Okay, you're classifying Good week on this. Okay. [00:17:55] Nick: I, you know, maybe it's just because it's sunny out. But that is a perfect segue into our next story, where one New Jersey school asked What if school was outside all the time? Every day. So New Jersey Nature schools are taking class outdoors, rain or shine. Um, and this article talks about bundled up kindergarten students at a Star Child Nature School in Medford, New Jersey, outside collecting tree sap to make glue. [00:18:28] Four handmade ornaments. So this is an immersive, you are outside, you are learning, you are one with nature type situation at this school. And that brings us to, uh, the relevant question of making, uh, the question of nature versus nurture ever. The more salient. [00:18:46] George: Wow. It's, it's all, it's all nature school here. Uh, and I know some are nonprofits, some are for-profits, but there's a number of them, and I'll call out one quote here From the South Mountain Nature School, our programs promote social and emotional development and instill confidence and foster independence. [00:19:01] Said Mary Claire Solomon. Who also in other news happens to be my sister. And so I'm incredibly proud of my sister for starting one of these nature schools, pushing through the pandemic and growing to the size that they have, uh, in New Jersey. And, you know, I get to see the, the pictures and the approach that they take in. [00:19:23] There's, you know, that question that comes up, well, what about when it snows? And it's like, you know, there's no bad weather, just bad apparel. So they, they are out there, rain or shine. I think this is a, a really healthy way for, for young people who are inevitably going to wander into the world of screen first learning and engagement and work to realize that, you know, food comes from the ground. [00:19:52] SAP is fun and it's, uh, it's great to see. I'm very proud of my sister, though. In other news, [00:20:00] Nick: That's super. George did you know that's mine, hometown, A South Mountain Reservations with in walking distance from where I grew up. [00:20:07] George: He can go over and say hi. [00:20:09] Nick: Go over, say hi. Maybe a little too old for, uh, the Nature School thing, [00:20:14] George: you could volunteer perhaps. [00:20:17] Nick: love it. All right. How about a feel good story? [00:20:21] George: Yeah. What do we. [00:20:22] Nick: This one comes from the Philadelphia Inquirer, uh, and it's about the eagle. The team, not the group, uh, thought that their Christmas album would fund a toy drive and it ended up doing so much more. So the Philadelphia Eagles of a football and. Sports fame can tell. [00:20:44] I follow football. Uh, thought that they were just raising a mere $30,000, um, for this charity toy drive, when in fact they raised [00:20:59] George: Quarter million 250,000 I believe. [00:21:02] Nick: million. Wow. Wow. Good for. [00:21:07] George: Yeah. What it's nice is also going to be funding not just one, but two toy drives and a summer camp, uh, which. Objectively I, while I respect toy drives and I like those moments, it's great to also say, what about dealing with, uh, the summer learning gap and supporting communities when, um, when you are needing a potentially even more. [00:21:29] So, uh, congratulations. Also, full disclosure here. Nick thought that this wasn't the team, the Eagles, but the band, uh, the Eagles. And it took him a couple of reads to realize that it was a fact about the sports ball. So Nick, I think we all learned something today. [00:21:49] Nick: We've learned a lot. [00:21:51] George: Have we, well, before I give you a terrible joke, I have a bit of a sponsored post here and it. A note that we are opening up our, as far as I know, we only do it once a year and it's the ad grant cohort and we're teaching. Organizations how to run the ad grant, the Google Ad grant, the thing that you get 10 K a month in in-kind ads for placing ads that drive traffic and value to your organization. [00:22:20] We're doing a five week live cohort. This isn't pre-recorded. This is hands-on and we're sharing exactly how we run this ad grant to maximize the ROI for your organization. And so we're gonna help, uh, only I think it's limited, 25 organizations. It always sells out. Registration is now open. Uh, and you can find that link in the show notes or wander around whole whale.com/university and you'll find it there. [00:22:47] Alrighty, question Nick, for you. [00:22:52] Nick: Uh oh. [00:22:53] George: Why, why did the clown donate his salary? [00:22:57] Nick: Hmm. I don't know about the clown thing, but why did the clown donate his salary? [00:23:02] George: Uh, it was a nice gesture. [00:23:05] Nick: Ah, ah, ah. [00:23:09] George: He, he laughs sometimes he doesn't know. And then we like, go off, Nick, did you actually get this one or is this gonna be the one where you like pause and you're like, I didn't get it. Explain it to [00:23:17] Nick: I, I got this one. I'm a huge Shakespeare Stan. I, I'm very familiar with a court gesture and this was, yes, but offering to explain was as well a nice gesture. Um, cuz [00:23:30] George: I just wanted to do it cause I feel like I cut off. I'm like, this would've been much funnier if he didn't understand it. He was like, I laugh, I don't get it. Alright. Thanks for humoring me and this is what you get for staying to the end of the podcast. Leave us a review. Thank you. Bye. [00:23:46] Nick: Bye.

This episode of A365 will discuss gender expression and identity in the global workplace.     Rafael Franco (Brazil) leads the conversation with Edelman leaders to address several topics, including understanding and respecting pronouns, recognizing differences in inclusive language globally, navigating gender expression in the workplace and more. The episode will also explore the experiences of those within the LGBTQIA+ community in sharing their identity at work and in the world.    Transcript Dani Jackson Smith [00:00:01] It's who you are to work after hours and back at home. Exploring every layer. Finding out what makes you uniquely you. And letting that shine back out into the world. It's authentic. 365 A podcast that takes a glimpse into how some of the most inspiring people among us express themselves and make magic happen. I'm your host, Danny Jackson Smith, VP at Edelman by day, community enthusiast and lover of the people always. On this episode, we are engaging our colleagues across the globe in a conversation on gender identity, understanding that how gender is addressed and acknowledge shifts based on your location. Let's join the conversation now.   Rafael Franco [00:00:51] Hello. I'm Rafael from Brazil, Adama San Paolo. And we're here today to discuss to explore the stigmas around gender identity and expression, to go beyond the binary gender identity and expression at work. And for this conversation I have here, for different persons around the globe, we have Monika Tik Tok from Brazil whistles. She's a senior account manager. I will ask everyone to say your pronouns as well as tragedian director from Malaysia. Lauren Gray, Senior Vice President, New York Crisis and Reputation Risk Advisory. And Nick Nelson, Senior Vice President Austin. Welcome, everyone.   Nick Nelson [00:01:34] Glad to be here.   Monica Czeszak [00:01:36] Happy to be here, too.   Rafael Franco [00:01:38] So we just start with an open question to everyone. So one identity is important to us all, and should we be respected by everyone knowing the formal definition of gender identity and expression? What do those terms mean to you personally and your response? Again, please say your personal pronouns. Mo, you can you can start, please.   Monica Czeszak [00:02:03] Okay. Hi, everyone. Glad to be here. If everyone, I'm Monica. But let's see Mo for short. As you heard, my name is a little tricky. My pronouns are actually all the pronouns. And like the lady on the mall, that puts everything on the shopping carts. So he / she / they I'm comfortable with all of those. And to me, that's a special question because expression to me it's whatever I feel like that day. Sometimes it's braids, sometimes it's baggy clothes, sometimes it's nothing at all. I'm also very forth on getting out of that image that everyone that's nonbinary only wears pajamas. And I think expression is just feeling comfortable with yourself and being your best self every day, and that's particularly special at work. And I think respect only starts with us looking at each other and getting to know each other and asking questions and having safe spaces to ask those questions because it's not easy. Sometimes I'm very feminine, so people might assume I use she or her. Sometimes I'm very masculine, so people might assume similar he. But it's very fluid like gender and like expressions. So we have to be safe to ask each other questions and present ourselves as we are.   Rafael Franco [00:03:28] Okay, great. What about you, Asra?   Ezra Gideon [00:03:31] So yeah, my pronouns are he / him. I've recently transitioned from female to male about two years ago. And I guess, you know, I'm. How do I say this? It is more true to me being a he / him than it ever was before, you know, being in any other pronoun, to be honest. So it's most comfortable for me and this is the pronoun that I feel most myself. It's a little tricky here because the Malaysian language does not have a he / him / they / them, its all dia means they / he / she. So it's you know, it's it's an amazing language. Trouble is, in Kuala Lumpur, corporate language is still English. So but it's still kind of, you know, a yeah, there's a mix of of Malay and English. So it's it's not as difficult, I think, for us here in Kuala Lumpur as opposed to parts of other parts of Malaysia. But yeah, it's a it's those are the pronouns I'm comfortable within and I'm happy to to use whatever pronouns someone tells me they want. I will use that because I respected that, that they know themselves better than I do. So, you know. So, yeah.   Rafael Franco [00:04:52] That's great. Well, I'm making myself vulnerable here because I'm not a known non-native English speaker. So it's hard for us Brazilians as well to understand this gender way of speaking in English. So I will hand over to my English colleagues. My English speaker, English- speaking colleagues learning and make plays well.   Lauren Gray [00:05:17] Thank you so much. I actually wanted to start by just sharing a definition of gender identity and gender expression, just in case anyone who's listening in doesn't know those definitions. And these come from the LGBTQ+ advocacy organization GLAAD and its media reference guide online. Reporters can use that guide to help better understand and cover LGBTQ issues. For gender identity, it's really a person's internal, deeply held knowledge of their own gender. Everybody has a gender identity. For most people, it matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. For our transgender community members, it doesn't align with sex assigned at birth. And many people's gender identity is that of a man or woman. But for other non-binary community members, it just doesn't fit neatly into one of those two categories. And just to give you a little bit more context on that, there was a recent study by the Trevor Project that found that one in four Gen Z LGBTQ community members are non-binary with an additional other 20% questioning their gender identity, and one half of those Gen Z non-binary individuals actually don't identify as transgender. So what we're seeing is really a sea change in the breadth and variety of language that's being used to describe and understand how nuanced gender can be. For me, my pronouns are she her, hers. But as a member of the LGBTQ community, hearing people share their pronouns and seeing pronouns included in emails, signatures, or in zoom display names. It's really a signal of a more diverse, inclusive environment. And I think it's one of the very important things that our colleagues can do in the workplace as an outward sign of support for our community and for those who are also looking for other ways to be a stronger ally. I would encourage you to get to know your LGBTQ colleagues, acknowledge their partners or spouses or families in the very same ways that you would people outside of the LGBTQ community and read up on things, look at the news, watch what's happening as things develop, and try to acknowledge moments of significance to the community, moments when you have terrible setbacks and moments when we celebrate great progress.   Nick Nelson [00:07:38] Nick Yeah. Lauren Thank you so much for that. I think, you know, it's always helpful here and be reminded of my pronouns are he is and my name is Nick Nelson since I didn't start with that. I think one of the things that I am still learning is the conversation we're having right now. You know, I work in multicultural DEI space, and so I've had the privilege to learn about gender identity, gender expression, but I've also had to acknowledge my own privilege as a gender male and not having to understand people who don't identify in the same way. And it's been a really rewarding experience to learn so much and have conversations like these and facilitate conversations like these for clients and for our colleagues. And so I think what it means to me is just a learning experience still. You know, I'm 33 years old and I'm still learning so many things as if I was still in school. And I think that's been the great thing about this particular workplace, but especially the work that I do is it gives me an opportunity to educate and to bring clients and colleagues along on the journey with me. But it also provides an opportunity for me to learn more and then be more supportive of my colleagues who may not be who may not identify it the same way or feel confident or comfortable identifying the same way as I do. So I'm really glad to be in this space with you all and have this discussion because it's long overdue and it's always important to talk through and kind of hear the perspectives. And I am looking forward to walking away from this with a new perspective that I can then bring into my work and support everyone, you know, regardless of their walk in life.   Rafael Franco [00:09:35] And we have mentioned our journey to understand this this theme better. And also Lauren mentioned the pronouns on our email signatures. And this awake me about Monica because I have wrongly assumed her pronouns in the beginning as she / her only. And we never have talked about that before. So Mo, is there a best way to to make sure we are always using pronouns properly and inclusively, especially in a global firm like Edelman?   Monica Czeszak [00:10:12] Yeah. And I think that's the funny part because when you have different problems, sometimes it falls back to you to let people know about your names, but you're not always safe or comfortable with sharing. So when you have a widespread initiative like the email signatures, like Lauren said, you're showing other people that it's okay to introduce yourself and say your problems and ask people for their problems as well. To me since I relate to all of them and none of them. It's like whatever rings that they it's fine. I feel very glad when someone uses he for me because it shows me they're trying to use other problems with me or when they talk in a general neutral way, but at the same time I'm comfortable in all those spaces. So I never really made the effort of going out there and saying to people, Hey, this is my problems and I'm comfortable this and comfortable with that. And once we had the signatures, it was like, Oh, I can let people know. And it kind of blew my mind a little because it was so simple and so easy. And at the same time I had a few emotional exchanges. Rafael was one of those people, but other colleagues came to me and was like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I never knew. Are you okay? Should I say things different? And it never occurred to me before that people might be struck that way after knowing my problems, that they did something wrong or something was not right before. So I had a lot of very emotional and very good exchanges with my colleagues, and I tried to make sure they knew that it was okay. We were getting to know each other better and I was happy. Now they knew and they were trying to be more. I don't know, inclusive of me. And it was very good for me to have those conversations because it opened doors for us to know each other better. Go ahead, Nick.   Nick Nelson [00:12:22] Yeah. I just wanted to build on that one. Thank you for sharing. But too, it's something that I speak about in client forums and in our employee forums where inclusion or being inclusive is not difficult, but it is intentional. So using the email signature was such a simple thing that started these conversations and got you such reactions, but also gave you an opportunity to express that. That's a perfect example of that. You know, inclusion is always intentional, but it's not always difficult and it just takes people like our company or like other companies who have done that, starting these initiatives where you can put your pronouns in your email or like we've done in this conversation, starting with introducing yourself and your pronouns. So you've established that already, and that was just such a small, simple step. So I'm really glad to hear that it was that impactful for you, where it was starting some new conversations, drawing some reactions and possibly an educational opportunity for so many of your colleagues.   Monica Czeszak [00:13:35] Absolutely. And it's completely intentional. And what I like most about it, it's at the end of those conversations, what we came to realize is that it has to be intentional and it has to be like a day to day exercise. In Portuguese, every word is gendered, like objects are gendered, every pronoun is gendered. So we are still figuring out how to be gender neutral and what are the rules and how to express it. And it's hard. You have to practice, so you have to know that. You have to use it and try to use it every day. So you get to that place in which it's easy and common to be gender neutral as well. So having those conversation was great for me in getting to this place where other people were also comfortable in asking and learning and trying to exercise. It was great.   Rafael Franco [00:14:28] Yeah, and as most said, and in Portuguese we have children conversations in general, everywhere, gender, but we are figuring out ways to do it. And so, for example, we have inclusive language and we have neutral language. One of them is not like formal. So we cannot use a broadly because it's not common for people to understand. But there are some ways that you can remove the gender from the phrase, rephrasing it. So that's one way that we that we tried to do here in Brazil. And Ezra, inclusive language, as I was saying, translates differently in different countries. And can you help better help us understand this dynamic based on your local experience?   Ezra Gideon [00:15:16] Yeah, sure. I guess in when, if and when we speak Bahasa Malaysia, which is to me, how many times, how many percent of my day spent speaking Bahasa maybe 20, to 80% of my time is speaking English because, you know, in Kuala Lumpur, almost everyone speaks English. In fact, everyone does. It's a matter of the degree of English or how well they speak it. But I only spend about 20% of my time speaking Bahasa Malaysia. But it's a mix and match when you're is very close friends and it gets very, you know, how do you say gets more when you're more familiar with people that gets a little bit less structured. So then, you know, it's a mix of English and Malay but I do think that people who speak Malay, the Bahasa and the Malay language tend to be less concerned over pronouns. And it's just they / them generally. And when they speak and when they say dia means, you know, they or he or she. So it doesn't really affect the composition of the person or the wellbeing of someone. But, but again, you know, how that works for us is still we speak a lot more English than we do Malay. And it's hard to educate people in a country where it's illegal to be trans or gay. So they just won't. They just won't because I don't have to. Because it's illegal anyway. You being you. Yeah.   Rafael Franco [00:16:45] Sure. And Lauren, we were talking about places where it's illegal to be LGBTQ plus and not even in countries where it's it is recognizable and it's okay to be gay or lesbian and trans and etc.. We know that not all LGBTQ plus employees feel comfortable sharing their experiences sexual orientation, gender identity, or expression in the workplace. So how can we recognize that and still be supportive to our colleagues, of our colleagues?   Lauren Gray [00:17:23] So you're absolutely right about that. And that's actually really a surprise sometimes to people in the US. There's data from the Human Rights Campaign for 2018 that found that about 46% of LGBTQ employees are closeted at work, which is actually usually very, very surprising to people. And we really want people to be able to be their authentic selves at work. Some of it is an issue of representation. There was some really interesting research as well from McKinsey in their 2020 Women in the Workplace report that found that in corporate America, LGBTQ women specifically only make up 2.3% of entry level employees, 1.6% of managers, and even smaller numbers at more senior levels. So to help counter this and help bring people out at work, we really need to focus on ways that we can increase visibility at work and representation for business. It's great to think about recruiting and retention and what that could look like, and we actually had a really interesting experience recently at Edelman. We created this task force called Out Front. It's an LGBTQ task force. It's really meant to help to. Will clients on complex LGBTQ issues. And as part of that task force, we created a team chat to make sure that people were in the loop and that we were communicating on issues that were raised and bringing in people with appropriate expertize. And we found that that chat really brought people together across offices. It was amazing and people started communicating on it all the time, sharing articles and stories and life events and wedding photos and pictures of birth of new children, etc.. And it was just this really incredible way that really organically people came together and started to increase visibility. So as much as we can do things like that, I think that will really, really help bring people out at work.   Rafael Franco [00:19:21] And this, I guess, changes our culture, culture of the company, right. And the culture of the company is impacted and informed by the people who work there. So, Nick, how can we all be inclusive and supportive to our to all our colleagues who wish to or wish not to fully express their gender identity at workplace?   Nick Nelson [00:19:46] Yeah. I think the most important thing is to create a safe space, right? Create a safe space for our colleagues at Edelman and beyond to show up the way that they want to. Right. And for some people. I would say that doesn't necessarily mean that they're closeted. That means that that's not a part of themselves that they want to share in the workplace. And I think we have to create the space and grace for that. Right. You know, I think the term that we use a lot is authentic self. And I think authentic self is subjective and relative to every individual. And so, you know, if you choose to share these details with me. Great. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. If this is not important to your workday or if this is not a part of the identity that you want to share in any part of your life. Great. I still like you anyway. I still enjoy working with you. And so I think that's the most important thing, is just the space to be yourself and then not, we have to be careful. And this is something that I see a lot in my work. We have to be careful not to create a box or terms for what showing up as your authentic self means. Right. You know what that means for Lauren, for example, may be very different for me, and that's not because anyone is shy or afraid. But we have to consider that people are bringing a lot of different experiences into this moment that we're meeting them. You know, I have no idea what has happened to you guys before 21 minutes ago when we started this recording. Right. And I don't know what's going to happen to you after. But I have to understand that there's so many things contributing to the way that you are showing up in this moment. And so all I can do and all we can do is make sure that we're being supportive colleagues and meeting you in this moment and helping you show up the way that you want to be your best self.   Rafael Franco [00:21:54] That's very powerful and very, very true. And so I would get back to Turing because we have talked about added initiatives in during this conversation. And Adam Eco is one of our employee network groups. Adam And it was created to help to good turn on community for LGBTQ close employees and allies and provide a place and space where employees can share, learn and grow. So how can an employee group serve to good community for or benefit non cisgender employees at work?   Lauren Gray [00:22:33] It's a really great question, and I'm glad that you asked that this year. Edelman Equal has we've had several key priorities. The first is educational programing. So, for example, after the overturn of Roe v Wade, we hosted a conversation with Jim Obergefell, who is the lead plaintiff in the Supreme Court case, the marriage equality case. And we talked about what these developments might mean for LGBTQ community members and for marriage equality broadly. We also talked about monkeypox this week with Dr. David Nabarro. So we did a briefing, public health briefing on it, and we talked about considerations for employers and answered questions that people may have about what's happening and what that looks like. And I think this educational programing is really important because it doesn't just benefit our broader Edelman community. But if you are an LGBTQ employee and you want to have a voice in helping shape the conversation that's happening at Edelman, in the knowledge on these issues in your own workplace, you can really be part of planning what some of that looks like. We also advocate for employees. We want to make sure that we are on top of what employee benefits should be happening for LGBTQ employees and making sure that we're included in data that Edelman is collecting so that we're being appropriately represented. And then also just provide a space to really connect and get to know each other and advocate for each other and support each other. Sometimes it's nice just to have fun together, but other times it's it's also really nice to have built up strong relationships with other LGBTQ employees. If you have questions or want to pressure test certain things or just to talk about things that have happened in the workplace.   Rafael Franco [00:24:14] That's great. And Asra, you have started your major media transition a short time ago and not within the most ideal condition, as your country is not welcoming to the full diversity of the LGBTQ community. And you have told me that Adam and I have have have had a very powerful space in this transition. So can you share a little bit of your experiences and specifically your how your work environment has impacted your transition?   Nick Nelson [00:24:46] Absolutely. I think, you know, it took a while before I discovered, you know, you know exactly you know, what my life would would be had I had taken this journey, for example. It's a lot of obstacles. But, you know, I, I spoke to my my mother and I told her everything. And I said, if it means I have to quit, I will have to do it because it's I can, you know, cannot not live, you know, being myself. But, you know, we took it on together, actually. And I think this is very important. It's because of that kind of leadership that you feel you can go to someone you're safe for the most. You know, Muslim is Muslim muslin is Muslim I Muslim. So it it mean you need to trust this person, you know? But, you know, after all of that, long story short, we managed to find a way to bridge that gap by I said, I'm going to come out, we're going to stay and fight this together. Whatever the system is, we will will face it together. And I came out to the colleagues and I think to Ipac. And so I think online when we were all doing the pandemic at that time, and it made me so much braver. And she was right there next to me and she's saying, going, going. That's fine. You know, and it's so many people involved. It's it's not just my M.D., but she was that person for me. And had I not had someone like that to be able to help me in on a day to day, even struggle with with the outside world, because coming to Edelman is like a whole different world. When I go back home, it's a whole different world, right? So but it's made me mentally healthy, so much better. I'm so much better for it. Being able to do what I do every day. I think I've even gotten better at my job, I'll be honest with you. So, so, so that that I think was very important. But it's not just leadership. It's the whole team. They're so polite. They ask me, you know, if they're saying something wrong, they're just amazing. It's it's hard to express. But yeah, it's been amazing. So we have two sets of laws in Malaysia. One is for Muslims, which is the Sharia law, and another is secular for everybody else who is not Muslim. And I can never change my gender marker, obviously, because if as soon as I do that, it will be, you know, it's illegal. Right. But they're going to they can try and test and test you on a day to day basis if they want you to have a look at your ID card and it doesn't match with the way you look or how you express yourself, it can give you a hard. But I've been very lucky. I've been honestly luckier than most and most grateful. Grateful for that. But it's harder for a lot more people here. I'm in a good position. I could probably get a job easier than some transpeople because I've been known in the industry before I transitioned. So yeah, it, you know, there's more to it than that. But in a nutshell, it really helps to have that culture of support from top down and it helps so much.   Rafael Franco [00:28:05] Well, I think I can speak on behalf of everyone here. We are so glad to hear that you have this help and have this opportunity of transition and be yourself at at the workplace. And as we are discussing the pronoun usage, for example, and the respect for gender identity and expression, they are very important in life and at work. So more can can you give us an overview of why it's so important to respect pronouns, why these tiny words are so important and so impactful on our lives, in our day to day work.   Monica Czeszak [00:28:47] Is a little emotional, but I think what we need to start off is just stripping away everything else and just realizing that we are all human beings that want to be seen. We want to make connections, we want to be cherished. We want to love and be loved. And that's the center of everything. And. Having that in the workplace, which is, let's say, most of our day, it's the biggest slice of our day when we go to work and we talk colleagues and we talk to clients. It's so important because. Imagine spending like a third of your life not being seeing and acknowledge every day. That's that's hurtful at a human level. So having that space where you can be yourself and like Ezra, find support and have people acknowledge and see you for who you are is very powerful because that gives us the confidence and the courage to go out there and face whatever we are facing on the other aspects of our lives as well. And this week I was with our lead in Brazil. We went to an event to sign an open letter to support LGBT inclusion in the workplace alongside other companies here in Brazil. And everyone that's standing at that event and talking to each other, there was those moments when you'll find someone in the audience and you look into their eyes and you could see that connection, the power of that connection, of being seen and being heard. And two of the things that made me the most emotion out there was that cry out for us to be brave. So let's create a safe space and not be afraid of creating more safe spaces to each other. But also when people would find each other and say, We know it's hard. We know it's little by little, but every little thing makes life so much better. And this is so important in the workplace.   Rafael Franco [00:31:00] That's true. That's totally true. And we are talking a lot about how inside a company we can do to to make our colleagues days better. But since we work in the client services business, we and just like colleagues, clients can also project their discomfort or express express microaggressions towards people of the community. So Nick, if you can speak to navigating sensitivities with clients and protecting the company and employer relationship, also how we can can we protect our teams and ourselves to make everyone feel safe and comfortable of showing up as they authentic self?   Nick Nelson [00:31:47] Yeah. Yeah. And Ezra, I'm definitely curious to hear what you have to say about this, but I think in my experience, one thing that I am learning and observing is that especially with clients, sometimes they genuinely don't know when they are projecting these things. I think, you know, if it's bias showing up, it's some of those kind of, you know, inherent things that they may have brought to the table. And so my experience, which has been pretty successful in the past, is just addressing it head on, you know, stopping in that moment and saying, hey, I heard you say this thing. What did you mean by that? And that is a very intentional question. As we were talking about earlier. It creates space. It creates a space to talk through it. No judgment, but also to educate and kind of point out why that might not be okay or point out, you know, what a different way to articulate that opinion may be, but also to ask questions. You know, I, I work with a bunch of people who don't work in the DEI or multicultural engagement or things like that. And so I have to understand that a lot of people don't know. A lot of people don't sit in forums like this and have these conversations. And so with clients in particular or even with colleagues, you know, I think we have a I don't want to say a responsibility, but I do think we have an opportunity to try to get to it in that moment. I think where we may need to do some more work is letting it linger or letting it pass. Right. Because then you've not only signaled that whatever this person said was okay, but that's you're okay with it, right? And so I think there's a way to get into that conversation and have it come out of it with an educational moment, an opportunity. And then to your second question, I think. I think it's such an interesting position to be in. Right. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, creating space for someone to show up however they want. Right. And if they are out and proud, as we say, great was lean into that. Let's build it. You know, I want to shout out Laura and the equal team for all of the work that they're doing, not just, you know, with the yards these, but then bringing in some of those experts to talk about the impact on our community, but then also how that impacts the broader community. Right. I don't think perspectives like that are hurt. And then as we're all transitioned to you, but one thing that you said that I always kind of keep in my brain is brave. I've never had to be, quote, brave. Right? I exist as who I am. I show up and take of space. I've not had to go through that experience that you have and I've not had to do it publicly. I've not had to kind of navigate the things like that on top of, you know, the cultural situation that you're in. So I applaud you and people like you who are willing to bring those educational opportunities to us. And like I said to Lauren and Mo, you know, all of these things that we just don't think about, you know, that I don't think about because I don't have these question marks. I don't have things that may signal something else to someone. And so I really just want to appreciate you guys publicly and openly for that kind of work and how it advances this exact conversation that we're having.   Monica Czeszak [00:35:38] I just wanted to add that. I think not everyone can relate to how huge that is. But I think we all when we go back to ourselves, we know about fear. We all fear something and the size of the fear and the importance of having that backup. But another thing I would say, we know things are hard in Brazil. We have a lot of violence against the trans community especially. And we know in different parts of the world we have different regulations and laws. So it's very different in contexts. What kind of fear you have when coming out, when reaching out for help and making those connections. But I think it's important for us to also see the hope in that, and they will hear it in your voice. They won't see your face, but the little flesh in your eyes and you're saying how much better he was than you expected and all the support you get. And I think we have to keep that in mind because we know there's a lot of bigoted people. We know there's a lot of conservative people. We know there's a lot of. Evil in the world. But there's also hope, there's also connection. There's also friendship and and help sometimes where you least expect and people can change and people can learn and we can build those networks that are accommodating and comfortable and resourceful to others. So I just wanted to bring out hope from your story, because I think we need to remind ourselves of that.   Rafael Franco [00:37:15] That's very powerful. And I'm I'm clapping here on mute does not disturb your speeches. So headed now to the end of our conversation, I would just like you to get your final, final thoughts. And we navigate this a little bit during our conversation. But just for wrapping wrapping up, what can those who are not part of the community do do to be better allies and accomplices for the LGBTQ plus colleagues at work? So, Nick, if you want to start.   Nick Nelson [00:37:53] Sure. Happy to start. I think allyship is so important because, you know, while I think this group, you know, we are having this conversation publicly and openly, I think we are at a certain part of our journey. Right. I think there are people who may not be there. Right. And so that's where allies come in. And I recall a conversation that Edelman hosted during the chaos of 2020 where the gentleman presenting said, you know, there's allyship and then there's accomplices. Right. So are you going to stand beside me or are you going to stand in front of me? Right. And some of us just need someone to stand beside us, which I believe we would consider as an ally. But then some of us who may not be as advanced in our journey or kind of still understand where we fit into an organization or to society or culture may need an accomplice. And so I think understanding where our colleagues are, creating the space to have conversations about pronouns, about workplace identity, about all of these things is where you can really understand where you fit on that spectrum. So is it, you know, walk beside me, walk in front of in front of me. And then sometimes for some of us is get behind me, move out of my way, let me clear the pad so I can make it so much easier for others who come after me. Right. And so I think that's where our colleagues, rather than whether or not they're in the community, honestly, can be the most helpful, is just really understanding. You know, is it that accomplice is an ally or is it just, I got your back. Let me know what you think.   Rafael Franco [00:39:38] Right.   Lauren Gray [00:39:39] I guess I just wanted to build on a point that my made earlier that I thought was such a good point. And I think that's that we don't expect perfection from people and being allies. And I think that's a really good thing to raise that we shouldn't let being perfect become the enemy of the good. It's enough for many people within the community just to see that you're trying, just to see that you're interested and trying to build a connection and doing what you can to be supportive. I think often people are really afraid of making mistakes in some of these conversations, and I think it's just good to affirm and I was glad that raised that that hurt a lot of people within the community. We just want to see you trying to really, really appreciate that.   Rafael Franco [00:40:28] That's totally true, Ezra.   Nick Nelson [00:40:33] I think for me, what I've noticed and what I see around me, it's always good to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think I am braver because I believe in the good of people more than anything else. I'm not brave because, you know, I didn't even see anything coming. So really, I don't know what to be scared of. But really, it was the fact that people were relatively good. And if you do try the and if they reject you, it's fine. You have to learn to heal a little bit from that. But you can educate and sometimes the more you can do that in a big way and I see this with clients as well is, is, is to yeah. To allow them to to make mistakes also and be and correct them in the in the not in a good way because they sometimes don't know. They, they don't know even what they're doing, especially, let's say for for some place like in Malaysia, you know, I mean, we're not living on trees. No, that's not that's not it. But but a lot of this awareness of the community, it's not part of the conversation on a day to day. To give them a chance. And, you know, that's that that's that's what I have.   Rafael Franco [00:41:49] That makes the work better a more.   Monica Czeszak [00:41:52] I think the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about allyship and. Our job, as well as a communications firm, is to really talk more and make it safe to talk more, because I know it's a very far and honorable place and I can speak from experience throughout my life. I made so many mistakes growing up after I grew up, as I developed as a professional and as a person. And sometimes it's hard to have those conversations, and sometimes it touches into memories or situations that you're not ready for. And there's no rush. You can take your time. You can see if, when, where it's good for you to talk about it. But as an ally, make sure to signal that you are there. When the person is ready and talk about what you're thinking, raise questions and participate because it's what we do on a day to day. As a firm, we talk to our clients, we talk to society, we talk to our colleagues. And that's part of the experience itself, to be open and to reach out and use everything. Your experience in learning and hearing to build something better. Because I like to say to my colleagues, when I talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, it's a journey so it doesn't really have a destination. We keep building up on the conversations and experience we are having.   Rafael Franco [00:43:28] That's true. And when you're in the position of being an ally, you don't need to wait to be ready. You go with fear. You just make mistakes. But few certain that you need to be there for people that you care about and your colleagues and the people in your life. So just be there and listen and have this conversation.   Dani Jackson Smith [00:43:53] And that's a wrap for this episode. Many thanks to you for talking with us. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast. And until next time, keep it authentic all day, every day. Special thanks to our team behind the scenes.  

Wouldn't it be nice if you could sleep at night knowing that you don't have to worry about pests in the properties you manage? In this episode, property management growth expert, Jason Hull interviews Nick Drzayich from Cover Pests to learn about dealing with pests in property management. You'll Learn… [02:00] Cover Pest… It's like Insurance for Pest Control [03:59] Dealing with Pests as a Property Manager [07:48] Dealing with the Different Kinds of Pests [13:13] How Partnering with Something Like Cover Pest Works [16:02] Eliminating Having to Figure Out Who is Gonna Pay the Bill [17:15] Using Pest Coverage as a Selling Point for Property Management Tweetables “We want the tenants to feel good about where they live and have it clean. We also want the owners to understand that their property's being taken care of when it's needed.” “It's nice for the property manager to have someone else get some eyes on the property every once in a while.” “It's increasing the visibility. It's decreasing some of the potential costs for the owners. It's protecting the owners.” “We go out, and we take care of it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Nick: We want the tenants to feel good about where they live and have it clean. We also want the owners to understand that their property's being taken care of when it's needed and then obviously the property management companies, they don't have to hassle with the back and forth and who's paying the bill.    [00:00:14] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently. Then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.   [00:00:53] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry. Eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow.    [00:01:13] Now, let's get into the show and my guest today, I am hanging out here with Nick, and Nick, you got to tell me your last name. I should have asked you before the show.    [00:01:25] Nick: No, that's okay. I tell everybody to just say "does your eye itch?" And that'll about cover it. Okay. It's pronounced (dur zye ich) Drzayich. It's a Serbian name, and it's way too many consonants in a row.    [00:01:37] Jason: Nick Drzayich. All right. From Cover Pest. Cool. And is it Cover Pest or just "Cover?" Website says "cover."    [00:01:45] Nick: Yeah. Cover Pest. Yeah.   [00:01:47] Jason: Cover Pest. Okay, cool. Well Nick, glad to have you on the show. So tell me-- give us a little bit of background. How did you-- and I'll just say for those listening, it says, "pest control solution for property managers," like on your website. So tell me a little bit about Cover Pest, and how did you get into this?    [00:02:04] Nick: Come from an insurance background actually. 13 years or so ago, I started and grew a independent life insurance agency, and so that's kind of been my background. Right. And so within insurance, you're obviously taking a big cost in life insurance. There's a death benefit with other insurances. There's big expenses that come at some point throughout the life of a policy and you're taking the cost of that and you're spreading it out among all the policy owners.    [00:02:34] Jason: Mm-hmm.   [00:02:34] Nick: So kind of with that mindset. I was chatting with my business partner who lives north of me, and he actually runs a pest control company and has for several years. We kind of got to chatting about this combination of life insurance and kind of sharing this cost, spreading the cost out and how you could potentially do that with pest control. And that's how we kind of landed on this idea of using that model to help property management companies take care of their pest control issues, which we know are just a hassle whenever they happen. Yeah. And solve that issue for them and allow them to take that off their plate and add a little bit of revenue in the meantime. Got it. And what areas do you guys cover? Is this a national business? Or is this local? How does this work? Yep. So this is a national business.   [00:03:21] We obviously have the ability to go anywhere in the country. We have, we started it here in our home state of Idaho, which is where we have the bulk of our clients. But ultimately, yeah, we we work with vendors across the country to be able to help take care of the issues that, that property managers are seeing.   [00:03:37] Jason: Cool. So help me understand how this works. Like why would a property manager decide, Hey, I should work with Cover Pest instead of just use some pest control vendors locally and connect with and have these people in as a feather in my cap. What advantages do they have with working with Cover Pest and why would a property manager choose? Or why do they choose to work with you?    [00:03:59] Nick: Yeah. Great question. So. As soon as you mention pest control to a property manager, you're probably going to get just a lot of heartache right there. Whenever an issue comes up, it's technically it's a tenant responsibility. Yeah, but ultimately it's going to come back to the maintenance manager. It's going to come back to the property management company or owner every once in a while. And so they're having to deal with finding a vendor. Vendors got to contact the tenant, get the service done, and then you got to figure out where you're sending the bill, and there's always going to be a fight there. The tenant's not going to want to pay it, the owner doesn't want to pay it, and you, as the property manager, you don't want to pay it either. And the benefit here is that, we work best with companies that have some kind of resident benefit package. So what our service does is it kind of slides right into that resident benefit package, and for a very nominal fee compared to what you would normally pay for pest control, your tenants are able to have all their pest issues covered, and when they need service, they put the request in online-- goes to call. We send a technician out and take care of it. There's no additional cost on top of what that monthly fee is.   [00:05:03] So like I mentioned, we kind of slide in the benefit packages. We also work as a standalone amenity for those that either don't want to put us in a benefit package or don't offer a benefit package.    [00:05:13] Jason: Got it. So what are what are property managers typically bundling in along with Cover Pest in, you know, in addition to Cover Pest in their resident benefits packages that you're seeing?   [00:05:26] Nick: Yeah, so oftentimes we'll see-- a big one is filter service, so furnace filters that are shipped--   [00:05:31] Jason: mm-hmm    [00:05:32] Nick: --every few months. There's a lot of times some kind of a credit building aspect to the benefit package. There's usually some kind of a maintenance, a 24 or seven maintenance benefit that's inside of that package. And then a lot of times there'll be some kind of perks. You get a free maintenance request once a year on something that would normally be charged to you, or you have late fee, late payment protection. Once per year, you can make a late payment and not have to worry about any kind of fees. So those are just some of the things that we're seeing inside of benefit packages along with our service.    [00:06:03] Jason: Got it. And what are you typically seeing property managers charge for this resident benefit package? And I would assume this is something that they're convincing the tenants to buy as a product.   [00:06:15] Nick: Yeah, so ultimately, what we've seen is that the benefit package just rolls right along with the lease agreement. There's not an option there for the tenant to either pay for or not. It just is what it is and you get it. Yep. And they range across the board, right? From, you know, 20 bucks all the way up to 75 plus dollars per month, depending on what's in the package.   [00:06:41] So when we were designing our service to be able to slide into a benefit package, we wanted to be super conscious of increasing that at all right because any increase in a benefit package cost is going to come with some kickback initially. And so there's got to be some good value there. So we had that in mind for sure, but they definitely range. They kind of run the gamut of, you know, pretty cheap all the way up to some pretty expensive packages, depending on what's offered.    [00:07:08] Jason: Got it. Now you said kickback, but I think you mean push back, right?    [00:07:13] Nick: Yeah.   [00:07:13] Jason: Okay. All right. Just making sure. People are like, "is there an affiliate thing going on here?" right. Okay. Yeah. Right. The tenants are going to be a little frustrated if it's too expensive and they're going to say, "Well, why am I being forced to do this? I don't know that I need all that stuff." Okay. So then, can you give us an idea of what this would cost? How do you price this with companies? Is this like on a per unit basis that you work out a deal with the property managers? Are there certain rates? Is this something that they just can do on certain properties that they can convince the owners to buy into? How does that typically work?    [00:07:48] Nick: Yeah. So when we onboard a company. It's pretty much an all or nothing deal. Right. We want to make sure we cover all of their properties regardless of where they're at and if they have current pest issues. We do work individually on a customized basis with each property management company to decide: "all right, what are you seeing typically pest issue wise? What package makes the most sense, and do we need to customize a package to best fit?" So, at a broad level, we have a couple of different packages. One of 'them is more of a basic package that covers the things that don't typically happen a lot, but when they do happen, it's a real hassle.   [00:08:25] So a good example of that would be bed bugs, for example. They don't happen a ton, but when they do, it's a pretty severe cost.   [00:08:32] Jason: Right.   [00:08:33] Nick: Yep. And and then going up from there, our upper package is a little bit more of the common stuff that people call on a regular basis. Your spiders, your ants, wasps, bees, that sort of thing. And so we do have a couple of packages that we work off of, but we do customize with each company and make sure that we're covering what they want and making it specific to them.    [00:08:56] Jason: Got it. I'm sure it differs. Like here in Texas, we have some big bugs and a lot of mosquitoes here in Austin, but yeah, in some markets, I would imagine you've got certain issues that are just typical to that market and then other markets you don't, and it might also have to do with sometimes-- unfortunately might have to do with the class of the property or the area of the property that it's in, how well it's maintained, stuff like that.   [00:09:21] Nick: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, ultimately we don't want the tenants to hesitate to call because that's what normally happens, right? They know that they're responsible for it.    [00:09:30] Jason: Yeah.    [00:09:30] Nick: And so, they don't call and they just kind of sweep it under the rug either literally or figuratively and the pest issue goes untreated and it can get out of hand, and so we want to eliminate that from happening. We want the tenants to feel good about where they live and have it clean. We also want the owners to understand that their property's being taken care of when it's needed and then obviously the property management companies, they don't have to hassle with the back and forth and who's paying the bill.   [00:09:57] Jason: So let's make this a little bit real. So let's say you've got a tenant. They've got some pests. I don't know what kind of pests would be a serious issue, but they decide not to call. Give me an example you've heard of, and then it's incurring additional damages that then the owner's going to have to pay for. Can you think of something like that?    [00:10:17] Nick: Well, I can tell you that, for example, like an average bed bug cost to remediate is going to be anywhere between 800 and a thousand bucks.    [00:10:25] Jason: Okay.    [00:10:25] Nick: So right there, you know, our average package is probably around 10 to 12 bucks a month. So if a tenant is paying 10 to 12 bucks a month, they have a bed bug issue, they're paying substantially less than what they would have to pay to have that remediated through just a general pest control company. Those obviously become much bigger issues when you're looking at multi-family situations where units are connected and those bugs can travel. So I've seen that stuff get pretty out of hand, but ultimately we want to get it controlled as, as quickly as we can so that doesn't happen.    [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. I hate roaches. Really don't like those things like yeah. I remember being in some houses, like some just not really nice areas, like visiting some houses and stuff in upstate New York and high humidity, and there were some units that I went in that had some really nasty infestations with cockroaches and some of them are really freaking tiny. They're just running around all over, so. Yeah, I hate those things.    [00:11:27] Nick: It's rough. It is nice. Yeah. It's nice for the property manager to have someone else get some eyes on the property every once in a while because typically if you're seeing a lot of bugs, there's a reason. The bugs want to eat. And so there's some cleanliness issues there. So it's nice to be able for us to be able to report on what we're seeing and if we're seeing multiple calls on the same property that's a little bit of a red flag to maybe send someone out there to take a look at the property and have a chat with the tenant.   [00:11:52] Jason: Got it. Yeah. So one of the key benefits then is it's giving you greater visibility into some of the problem properties as to what's going on.    [00:12:02] Nick: Yeah, absolutely because we're going to track every time we get a service call, and you're going to see that report as well. So we can both kind of keep eyes on it.   [00:12:09] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. So this is something they can build into, you know, along with their leases as part of their resident benefit package. It's not going to increase their costs. Does this become a profit center in any way for property managers or is this just mitigating costs?    [00:12:26] Nick: Yeah, we've had property managers use it just to kind of mitigate those costs. No additional revenue.    [00:12:32] Jason: Mm-hmm.    [00:12:32] Nick: Most of the companies we work with as with everything in their benefit package, they're going to add some kind of a mark up there or an admin fee just for them for kind of doing the work and yeah and setting up the relationship. So it makes perfect sense, so that's what most of them will do. And it's kind of up to them, how much they mark it up, but yeah, there's definitely an additional kind of profit stream there that can be created through using Cover.    [00:12:54] Jason: Got it. And certainly some advantages to taking greater care of the property. Cool. So what are the big questions besides the ones you've already touched on that when people come to you, they're really curious to know because I'm sure some of our listeners are probably thinking, "Hey, maybe this is a good idea."    [00:13:13] Nick: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the main questions I get is how do we roll it out? Yeah. And a couple different ways. Typically what we'll do is it's a kind of a slow rollout and it's upon lease renewal or a new lease creation. So as you're working with a property management company, they have new leases come up. They'll send us that batch for the month. That's renewing and we'll get them added into the service catalog. We have had companies that have gone in and asked their tenants, "Hey, do you want to opt into this right now in the middle of your lease?" and that option is there as well.    [00:13:44] Jason: Have you seen much success with that, with them doing that? What percentage do you see typically? I don't know if you have that data, but...   [00:13:52] Nick: that are opting in?   [00:13:54] Jason: Yeah. If they put it out to all of their residents for opt in, I'm just curious what the typical response rate is that people are like, "yeah. I'll go ahead and do that." Maybe 10%?   [00:14:05] Nick: Yeah. It's not high. Not high--   [00:14:07] Jason: yeah   [00:14:07] Nick: because--    [00:14:08] Jason: I would imagine it's like, "Hey spend more money. Do you want to?" And they're like, " yeah."    [00:14:11] Nick: exactly. Yep.    [00:14:13] Jason: Okay.    [00:14:13] Nick: So most frequently, most commonly, it'll be rolled out as leases are renewed and as new properties or leases are assigned, that's the most common way that it's done.    [00:14:23] Jason: Okay. Got it. So they sign up with you. You've worked out the pricing based on what sort of package they need, you implement, consult them and help them figure out how they're going to roll this out, and they're probably building this into their lease with some verbiage. You typically provide some verbiage for them to add to their lease as part of this.    [00:14:41] Nick: Yep, absolutely. We have some stuff that you can throw in.    [00:14:44] Jason: And then they get this rolled out. So then they've got this new maybe profit center, but at least it's being paid for by somebody. It's increasing the visibility. It's decreasing some of the potential costs for the owners. It's protecting the owners. If something gets really bad it could cause a lot of damage. And I'm curious, like, you've mentioned bed bugs, and I mentioned roaches, but what else are you typically seeing causes a lot of damage? I mean, termites, we hear a lot about. Is this something that is checked for or like relevant?   [00:15:13] Nick: Yeah. wood destroying bugs like termites are a completely different animal.    [00:15:18] Jason: Yeah.   [00:15:18] Nick: That's not honestly a part of what we do. It's another specialty altogether. As far as damage is concerned, mice and rats are another one that are--   [00:15:28] Jason: oh yeah.   [00:15:28] Nick: --they're out there, and we hear about them and we treat for those. Those ones will come in and cause some real issues. If nothing else, just scaring the crap out of people.   [00:15:37] Jason: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then, you know, safely doing the cleanup because--   [00:15:42] Nick: right.    [00:15:43] Jason: --You know, some issues with some of that stuff, so yeah.    [00:15:46] Nick: Yeah.    [00:15:47] Jason: And so no on termites, but yes, on bed bugs, roaches and mice and and rats. Okay. Got it. Any other questions that property managers might ask that would be curious about your service or that you'd like them to understand or know?   [00:16:02] Nick: Yeah, maybe just to, again point out that sometimes when we go out to do a service the property management company will expect another bill from us or think that there'll be another bill coming, but it's all taken care of. Just in that monthly subscription that's paid for by the tenant. There's no additional fee, no additional cost. We go out and we take care of it. And so that's a common question, common concern. One other one that comes to mind is sometimes they'll be rehabbing a property or making some significant changes to one of their properties and they'll want to stop the service or pause the service. We're definitely open to doing that and have done that. So pausing service during a rehab or big remodel is definitely something we can do. That's one question that has come up in the past as well.    [00:16:44] Jason: Unless they potentially could uncover something in the walls during that room.   [00:16:49] Nick: Right. Right. Yeah. And that's another thing to mention. Yeah. Another thing to mention is the service kind of runs with the address, not necessarily the tenant, so--    [00:16:59] Jason: okay.   [00:16:59] Nick: --if you have a property that maybe sat vacant for a couple months, and you had a maintenance manager out there to check on something and he notice a pest issue. He can just give us a call and we'll go take care of it. Even though there's not a tenant in there, because it kind of runs with the address.    [00:17:15] Jason: Got it. And that justifies including it as part of the rent as well. So if you're saying, "Hey, this. This property, in some instances like in California, like you have to usually pay for lawn care if you want the lawn to be maintained because some people just won't do it sometimes, right? So there's certain things you would include. So this would be included. You could then-- that could be a selling point to the tenants. Like this comes with a resident benefit package where it includes this and this, you won't have to worry about pest control. You won't, and these other things.   [00:17:46] Nick: Yep, exactly.   [00:17:47] Jason: Okay. So potentially as the benefit of helping, sweeten the deal a little bit on a potential rental property for a potential resident, so.   [00:17:55] Nick: For sure. Yeah.    [00:17:57] Jason: Cool. Well, I think we've covered most of the highlights. This sounds like-- it sounds like a no brainer. It sounds like a good service. Let's tell everybody how to get in touch with you and how to find you.   [00:18:10] Nick: Yeah, super easy. Our website is CoverPest.com and you can call me anytime. My number's (208) 477-1330. That's my cell. And you can go on to CoverPest.com, submit a form, and we're happy to chat about creating kind of a custom pricing model for your property management company.    [00:18:29] Jason: Cool. So I want to ask one more question. So when they hear you say, "you'll call my cell" and "here's my number," they might be thinking, is this a scalable business? What if somebody has 10,000 doors or they're a big conglomerate, you know, or they're a small property manager. Is this a scalable model for you? Can you handle different size property management companies?   [00:18:50] Nick: Yeah, what's nice is that our portal, our backend portal that's a part of our website makes it really easy for property management companies to go in and add their properties to their list. So every time they have a backed upload of lease renewals. They go to the service portal, they put it in there and they're added and they can see exactly which properties are covered in that month. And then, yeah, we work with a network of pest control companies that we use as vendors to service accounts that we get with property management companies in different states, if that makes.    [00:19:23] Jason: Got it. So you've got this all figured out really well. I appreciate you coming the show, Nick, and it's been great hearing about Cover Pest. So thanks. Thanks for coming on.    [00:19:33] Nick: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.    [00:19:36] Jason: All right. Cool. So check them out at coverpest.com sounds like a good service. And as always give me your feedback. I want to hear... those of you that work with Cover Pest, let me know how it goes. And those of you that are tuning in for the first time, and you got some value from this episode, or if you're not tuning in for the first time, give us some feedback. If you find us on YouTube, The Google play store, or you find us on Spotify or iTunes, give us some feedback. We'd love to hear what you think of the show. And we may even give you a shout out on a future episode. So we appreciate that. And if you're interested in growing your business, check us out at doorgrow.com, and if you want to join our free community of property management entrepreneurs, you can go to doorgrowclub.com and that will get you to our Facebook group.    [00:20:23] Join that community. We've got some great people in there and you know, a rising tide raises all ships, as they say this will allow you to connect with some other property managers and have a resource you can go to to ask questions. And we'd love to hear from any of you inside there, so make sure you join. And until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.   [00:20:49] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!    [00:21:16] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. 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There are plenty of decisions that you'll make in the retirement planning process that can't be undone, so you want to make sure that you make the right call. On this episode, we'll explain why these decisions are so important and can't be undone. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Back here for another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick once again, joining me to talk about getting things right the first time. There are some irreversible financial decisions or close to it in retirement and there's plenty of things we've got to deal with. So we want to make sure we get it right as often as possible, right out of the gate, because some of these things just cannot be undone. So you guys being in Florida, mulligans, everybody plays golf. Mulligans are a thing, for sure. You didn't see that? Some mulligan, its a give me. Let me do it again, kind of thing. But there's things in retirements that you just got to get right the first time. So that's going to be the topic this week. Nick, what's going on, buddy? How you doing?   Nick: Good. Good. Staying busy.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Keeping rocking and a rolling. John, how you feeling my friend?   John : I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I'm looking forward to this topic. I'm actually a couple of weeks out from finish some construction in my house and I wish that the original builds and plumbers got it right and knew how to glue some pipes that wouldn't have caused a leak down the road. But anyhow,   Speaker 1: Yes.   John : Looking forward to getting that construction done, so.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I tell you what, that's a great point. Right. So we all want people to do their job right the first time. Certainly when you hire someone, that's what you expect. But these are some decisions that many people do to themselves because so many people DIY retirement. Right. One of the benefits to turning to financial professionals like yourselves is to get these things right so that you don't have to worry about having these issues that can't be undone. So let's walk through a few of these. We're going to start with a biggie. Again, there's a little caveat here, but for the most part, once you turn on social security, it is what it is. So you have to be sure that you're, especially if you're activating it early, that this is what you want to do. There technically is a do over, but most people don't really go through it. So kind of explain if you will guys.   John : Yeah. So this is a big one because social security equates to roughly 30 to 40% of kind of average households retirement income going into retirement. So it's important. And Nick and I, everything we kind of say goes back to the planning and this can't be stressed enough because once you start taking it, let's do over for the first year out of it, that is what it is. And I'll kind of use an example of a client that we had where she was a survivor and she wasn't fully aware of her options and the strategies she could use. And just luckily she was referred to us right before she started taking social security. And I don't want to go too much into details, but basically the strategy that she was just going to take initially, I mean would've cost her a lot of money down the road. So we simply had to basically call social security, stop the payment and redo the strategy. But again, by not really having a game plan, she could have cost herself a lot of money down the road. And this doesn't happen just for survivors. It's anybody, whether it's your taking your own benefit or divorced, things like that. So there's a lot of things to evaluate when you're taking social security and when's the best time to take it.   Speaker 1: Okay. So and again I mentioned the fact that you can pull it back. Right. You have what one year. Nick is that right, correct? You have one year.   Nick: Yeah. So essentially the rule is that if you begin your social security benefits, you have 12 months to essentially reverse your decision that you started receiving benefits. You have to pay the benefits that you received back and then you can defer it again as if you never took it. So years ago, you used to be able to do that over a much longer period of time. And then the Social Security Administration caught onto that and they restricted it to a 12 month period.   Speaker 1: And let's be honest. Most people, the reason doesn't get really used very often is who wants to do it. Most people don't want to, as soon as they hear, well, you got to pay the money back. They're kind of like, eh, so I don't want to do that. Right. So,   Nick: Yeah.   Speaker 1: [inaudible 00:03:57].   Nick: Yeah, it's a tricky thing.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: It's like we've had some clients inquire about this recently and their sub full retirement age, so sub 66 or 67 or somewhere in between there and in instances where, because where the confusion lies for a lot of people is they want to continue to work maybe, but shift to part-time.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: And they don't realize that the part-time income is still in excess of the amount that they can earn without any sort of penalty, which for most people is around $20,000 for the year.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: And when you start to factor in the fact that you're permanently locking in a lower benefit plus running the risk of having a penalty on top of it for the rest of your life, it's not ideal. So,   Speaker 1: Right.   Nick: That's definitely a major decision and something that we like to model out and test out for people.   Speaker 1: And again, so technically there's a caveat to undo in a very limited window, but it's just best to get this right the first time, because for all intents and purposes, it's irreversible. You just don't want to go down that path. Same with the spousal benefit situation here on a pension, should you be lucky enough to have one. Once you select this, I don't believe there is any do-overs on this. It is what it is.   Nick: Yeah, that's correct. This is definitely a topic that we go through in the classes pretty in detail. Years ago, it was a lot easier for people to mess this decision up. It still happens sometimes, but it's less common because oftentimes the spouse has to sign off on it. But the reality is that having a really good understanding of what sort of survivor benefit you're going to choose, if you are eligible for a pension through your employer is a major, major decision and something to take into consideration. And one thing to throw in here too, for those that live in the state of Florida, oftentimes the projections that they send you or that you can access easily online, I should say are options like one and two or A and B. And there are two other options that are oftentimes better options and you usually have to request those. So we've seen that be a mistake that people have made only thinking that they had two options when there's actually four.   Speaker 1: Gotcha.   Nick: So that's something and it's important to know.   Speaker 1: Okay.   John : And what Nick's referencing there is the Florida pension plan, the state pension plan.   Speaker 1: The state. Okay. Got it. Thank you. So John, what about life insurance? What is the kind of the impact here? Irreversible financial decision, somebody might say, well, can I just cancel it or whatever, right, kind of deal, but what are some important points to know when it comes to this?   John : Yeah. So when you're doing planning, one of the things we look at is we start with the need for life insurance. And that really depends on dependence and some other factors, but it's easier to get when your younger. So that's one thing we take a look at and there's different types of policies that allow you to convert. And not to get too much into the weeds, but the older you get, some health issues might come up where you can no longer get it. So that's where it becomes very important to understand, Hey, is this something I really want to have down the road and does it work in my financial plan? And if it does, the sooner you can get it the better because things come up as we all know. As you get older, health issues come up. So you want to get it right the first time.   Speaker 1: And that's where you could run into a problem, right, especially if you wait too long and then a diagnosis happens, then it could either make it impossible or certainly incredibly costly.   Nick: Yeah. Especially, we joked a little bit in the last podcast about John and I hitting 40 this year. And the reality is, is that I know, I know. Everybody I'm sure is shedding a lot of tears.   Speaker 1: A lot of our listeners are like 40. I would trade with you in a minute.   John : Let's see, 40 back surgery this year. It's a good year.   Nick: Yeah. All of a sudden I got tendonitis in my arm and my shoulders all messed up.   Speaker 1: And right now you have listeners going, I'm going to go in and slap him.   Nick: I know, I know. But the key, the point with this whole thing is that some of these things, maybe not some of the things that John and I talked about, but maybe a type two diabetes or some sort of health issue that pops up where it doesn't in reality, necessarily in most people's mind affect what your life is going to be like. It could have an impact on what life insurance is going to cost for you.   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.   Nick: And so you pay for it out of your bank account, but you qualify with your health. And so usually the sooner you can lock in any sort of coverage, the less expensive it is and that'll pay off over time.   Speaker 1: No, you're exactly right. I mean, we're coming up, we were joking about this, but to really drive home your point, we're coming up on the 10th anniversary for me of my open heart surgery. I was 41 years old. I didn't think anything of it. And so it made it really difficult to get life insurance or get some different kinds of insurance once I had that happen. So I monkeyed around and waited too long. Right. And then I was like, well, I didn't know this was coming. Now luckily it was more lifestyle and things. So after enough of a time period, I started to eventually get some offers, but it is more expensive. So it is important to definitely have this stuff in place if you can, sooner than later, because again, it makes the financial impacts pretty great. So definitely keep that in mind as well. And then finally, choosing a retirement date. We debated on this one, about throwing this on the list because people would definitely can argue and say, well, sure you could change your decision on this. If you pencil in a date to actually retire, you can just move it around as you need to. But if you want to take it that a step further, depending on how you want to go, if you've given notice at a position, maybe not, right, it may be something you can't undo that. So just talk to me about the impacts of just either penciling in, choosing a retirement date to actually walk away just from different pros and cons.   Nick: Yeah. I can jump in on this a little bit. This is something where in reality, I think what we found is maybe a specific date is necessarily the key or the thought process, but understanding the range that you're looking at and understanding what sort of cost you might be incurring if you do retire early. So for example, if your somebody that has saved and done a good job of that and is looking to retire early, call it maybe 62, understanding the impact of how much lower your social security benefit is, understanding what sort of costs you're going to have when it comes to premiums for your health insurance. So as an example, we've got clients that are paying, some clients that are paying between eight and $10,000 a year for health insurance premiums per person, when they were used to while they were working, paying closer to three to $4,000 for the household. So that's something that can have an impact on that retirement date, where maybe you've been thinking in the back of your mind, Hey, I've got a good nest egg. I'm just going to plan to go a little bit early, but didn't quite realize the expenses associated with it. On top of that, from a planning perspective, we do have other clients that they knew that they were going to retire early. And so we put strategies together for leading up to retiring early. They were able to save some extra money into non-qualified or non-retirement accounts. And by taking their income in the first few years of retirement, out of those accounts, it allows them to qualify for certain subsidies for health insurance, which brings their costs down. So again, when we have clarity on what the goals and the objectives are in the financial world, there's usually ways that we can plan around it and try to optimize it. And so having a good idea of what that looks like and the impact of the fallout from that goal and then planning around that, it allows us to be more strategic.   Speaker 1: All right. So obviously there's lots of little things in there where again, you could make the argument that you could move some of these things around, but ideally we want to get it right the first time. And often, as I mentioned earlier, excuse me, when we're doing it ourselves, we don't know a lot of these little things, a lot of a little caveats and whatnot. So we want to get it right the first time. And that's where working with a professional really comes into play. So if you got questions, you need some help as always make sure you're checking with a qualified pro before you take any action on something here on this podcast or any other, you want to make sure that you're seeing how it reflects and affects your specific situation. So stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's the home for the team, pfgprivatewealth.com. You can subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, all that good stuff. Retirement Planning Redefined is the name of the show. You can look it up on those apps if you'd like, or just stop by the website again, pfgprivatewealth.com. We appreciate your time here on this week's podcast. We'll see you soon for another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

We've assembled a list of priorities to keep in mind as you count down the days to retirement. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody. Welcome to the podcast. It's retirement planning, redefined with John and Nick and myself talking about the countdown to retirement. What to do on those days, as we're getting closer, working our way towards it. We've assembled a list of priorities to keep in mind, as you are counting down those days to retirement. And we were getting ready to get this podcast started and we were kind of laughing at some of the things that we seem to run out of in this whole supply chain issue, had ourselves a good giggle along the way. So hopefully we'll have a good podcast for you to tune into as we talk about these things, because there's some good stuff on here. And guys at the time we're dropping this, I think we're going to drop this right after Memorial Day if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, it's right around it.   Mark: And Memorial Day is kind of the unofficial kickoff to summer. It's not technically summer yet, right? I think it's what June 20th or something like that. But when we get to 50 and a lot of times, if you want to think about this countdown 50 plus, it's kind of the unofficial kickoff to retirement. We're not actually retired yet, but we start thinking about it, paying more attention to it. So on and so forth. So John, the first one on my list is getting healthy and staying healthy. Many of us develop chronic issues in our 50s. So it's a good time to put some thought onto this so that you can actually enjoy those golden years.   John: Yeah, 100%. I would even because I'm sure, I don't know in the previous podcast I talk about my health issues, but I think it's important for everyone at any age, especially though I will say 50.   Mark: True.   John: Focusing on health and getting to the gym and just do whatever makes you feel good. But when you have an health issue and you can't do the things you were doing, I'll tell you it's quite a, it's a challenge. It's quite upsetting. And I'll say from the clients that we work with, we see a big difference in those that actively in retirement are working out, maybe seeing a trainer a couple of days a week to those that are not. And as you age, I think it's more, it's very important just to stay active because you're not recovering like you were in your 20s.   Mark: No, I think that's a great point. I like that too. Yeah, we should start sooner. Right. But if you kind of want to put a, some sort of a time table or something to it when we get, and it kind of works with our conversation for retirement, just get there, start making some of these changes. So you can really enjoy what we call the go go years. Right. So when we first get to that early days of retirement. And then this is a really big one, we could kind of merge two and three together, but we'll do them a little bit separately, but two Nick, is the free time. Now there's a lot of it. And maybe silver lining in the pandemic has been the fact that many couples got to realize life together, 24/7 working from home, being at home.   Mark: Because that's what retirement is. That's a big shift that we don't often talk about. We put a lot of focus on saying, yeah, we want a big travel and we want to go out and play a ton of golf or whatever. But like there's a lot of free time and you're spending it with that significant other that maybe you guys didn't see each other for eight, 10, 12 hours a day. Now you're together all the time. I don't know how many advisors I talk to where they're like, they have funny stories about one spouse or the other saying get them out of my house. They're driving me nuts.   Nick: Yeah. The time challenge can be significant. I can tell you two things that I would recommend against. And those things would be watching a lot more news and,   Mark: Right.   Nick: Deciding that social media is going to be your new hobby.   Mark: It's not your friend. Right.   Nick: If anything, there's a pretty good documentary on Netflix. I forget what it's called, but it's about social media and really kind of the big data side of things and how the algorithms work and really kind of feed into things. And in general, there's been a lot to handle for people over the last few years with the pandemic and everything else going on. So can not underestimate the importance of having constructive hobbies, doing things that kind of keep you sharp or engaged. And even from the standpoint of being social, things that you can do both alone and with others. The relief that people get from a psychological standpoint of being engaged with others and doing different things, kind of being out and about is really, really important and it's going to help keep you fresh. It's going to help you be able to focus on the things that are important versus the things that aren't, and that you don't have control over. And so, making sure that you're developing hobbies, and we would say that that's even separate from things like travel and that type of thing where,   Mark: Right, right.   Nick: Being inquisitive, doing things that have your brain still working are really important.   Mark: That's a great point. And John, I mentioned blending two and three together. So two was determining what you want to do with your free time. Three, we put post retirement career, maybe career is too heavy of a term, but a post retirement something. Right. Retire away, like if you hate your job, let's just say you despise it and you can't wait to retire and you're leaving with nothing else to go to. Like, I get that frustration, but I think people tend to be happier if they're retiring to something. And maybe that's not necessarily another career, but something like, even if you took a year off and literally did nothing, I'm sure you guys have story upon story of retirees who first enjoy doing nothing. But as humans, I think we crave some sort of structure, something to help us kind of fill the time and fill the days.   John: That's 100%. It's important to really start thinking about that. And I can't tell you how many times we've been in meetings and it's when do you want to retire? And the response is, well, I don't know if I'm ever going to retire, but I want to leave this job at this age.   Mark: Right. Right.   John: So it turns into what am I going to do next? And I think kind of what you said there. My mother watches my kids and that's kind of a level of importance to her and she watches them two or three days a week, and there's actually a study where grandparents that kind of are helping out their children, watch their grandchildren actually live a little bit longer. And I think it's all about that level, feeling important.   Mark: Yeah.   John: So whether that's watching grandkids, my clients had started to be a realtor and they actually end up making more money than they were at their previous job. So whatever it is, it's just making some type of level of importance. Whether it's making money, helping out family, volunteering is just feeling like you got to get up and do something in the morning.   Nick: And a good way to kind of sum that up as purpose.   Mark: Purpose. There you go.   Nick: Purpose. When people feel like they have a purpose for both themselves and those around them, they tend to do a lot better.   Mark: Yeah. No I'm with you there. And we used to retire at let's say 65 and you probably were passing away at 67, right? So sitting on the porch for a year or two and doing nothing felt great because we were tired. We were worn out. The concept of retirement is a little less than a 100 years old. So a lot of stuff is actually changed quite a bit. So a post retirement, something or another post retirement purpose instead of career. I like that. Thanks, Nick. We'll use that. And going forward is a great way to think about that on this countdown days to retirement list. Let's go to number four, Nick. So why don't you throw us some things to think about in the opportunity to save more. Again, I mentioned 50, right? So at 50 plus, some stuff starts to change and there's actually some good time to catch up a little bit or just cycle a bit more away if you need to.   Nick: Yeah. Oftentimes whether it's in their 50s or early 60s, people have, maybe they have children coming off the payroll and they don't necessarily plan to figure out how are they going to be able to recapture some of those dollars that they're used to spending on the kids and kind of help them really build up their retirement and maybe catch up from all those years of taking care of the kids. That can be something that's a big deal. One thing that's come up multiple times in the last, I'd say three to four weeks with what's been going on in the market is, we have clients emailing or calling us asking, Hey, the market's down, should we stop saving? And, the way that we try to kind of explain to people is that markets are cyclical.   Nick: We have had this period of time, 10, 12 years, where the markets have generally gone up and people's conception of what, or I should say, perception of what, typically happens in normal cycles, one to three to four year cycles is a little bit thrown off, but an easy way to think about this is that this is why we have a plan in place. You want to continue to save. And if anything the thought process is that you're buying at a discount from what things were previously. So in a lot of ways, the market's on sale. And so continuing to average in and chipping away and taking advantage of the benefits of being able to save money pre-tax, or those sorts of things is an important thing.   Mark: Yeah. It can make a huge dent, right? We're hopefully making the most money we've ever made and all that good kind of stuff. So 50 plus there's should be some good opportunities to sock a bit more away. And that might help John with number five, which is reducing down the debt. So even if you're not necessarily putting more away into a retirement account, because you've done a good job or whatever, maybe the focus is take some of that extra money with the kids being off the payroll and get rid of some of that, especially bad debt.   John: Yeah. 100%. I mean, with rates being as low as they have been, we have seen a lot of people go into retirement with mortgages, but you're at 2.6%, that's nothing crazy, but let's take mortgage out of it. Other debt definitely recommend trying to get that down and off completely, but get it off your books because when you go to retire, it's a big cash flow, where's your income coming from? Social security, pension, investments. The last thing you want at that point where there's no longer a paycheck coming in is debt. What that's doing at that point, it's really eating into kind of things you want to do, which we talked about for hobbies or enjoyment. And then on top of it, it actually adds some stress level to Hey, I need more income coming in to pay out all these bills and all this debt. So definitely before you hit retirement, it's good to be debt free. It's easier to pay off the debt in your working years than when you're not working.   Mark: Yeah. And on the concept of the house, right, there's always the arguments back and forth there, the different things. So certainly, that can also still be on the get debt free list if you'd like. I don't think it's a bad idea to necessarily get rid of it, but just make sure that you're doing that smartly and not being house rich cash poor as the saying goes or whatever the case is. So just kind of bear that in mind.   Mark: But yeah eliminating, if bought an RV or the big plans where the RV in retirement, maybe getting that paid down, if you bought it a little early or whatever, or boat, or I don't know, muscle car, whatever it might be. Right. Just get rid of the stuff that you've got some debt on. And then Nick, the final one here, number six on the list on just counting down stuff is the risk conversation. So if we're reducing our debt, maybe we ought to also think about reducing our risk. Now last year, people would've said, I'm not reducing my risk, the market's on fire, but right now they're like, okay, well let's maybe reduce the risk. Point being at 58 should we be investing like we're 38?   Nick: Yeah. So risk is an interesting word. And we wanted to take a little bit of time to kind of chat about this because there are different types of risk, and depending upon who you talk to, how they rank the different types of risk via priority is different. So for example, inflationary risk, which is something that we're dealing with right now, that's a risk. So in other words, losing the spending power of our money via inflation is something that we need to keep and take into consideration. However, we're in this kind of perfect storm where taking too much risk, if you're shifting money out of cash per se and moving substantial amounts of money into the market, you're dealing with a significant amount of market risk. And then we have interest rate risk from the perspective of, as they've increased interest rates, that's really pushed down the prices of bonds and bond funds.   Nick: And one conversation that we've been having with people is them not necessarily realizing that the bond market and even if you look at the most general bond index is down almost 10% year to date. And so we've been trying to take a lot of time in one-on-one meetings with people to try to explain how this has an impact and really this is a, with what we're dealing with right now is probably the best case in the last 15 years or so to show people why it's important to be diversified and understand that trying to fully time the market, whether it's from the stock side to the bond side, to the cash side, real estate, et cetera, it can be really tricky. And when things are going great, it's hard to remember that, but right now it's showing us that it's really important to make sure that when we think about our risk, that we're taking into consideration poor times, not just great times and understanding that just because maybe throughout the majority of your investing career, taking less risk has meant, Hey, let's reduce our stock exposure and increase our bond exposure.   Nick: It doesn't mean that that's always going to stay flat or go up, there's risks along with that too. So, diversification, understanding that sometimes we do run across periods of time where we just kind of have to take our medicine where all markets have been up for the most part over the last 12 years. There's going to be times where we run into corrections, which is kind of what we're dealing with now. And we have to be patient and try not to go overboard with overreacting to the short period of time. Sometimes looking at the lens through the last, even one year, two year, three year period of time and realizing that in the scheme of things we need to just kind of stay steady.   Nick: But yeah, in general, I would say that making sure that you kind of do an update on what you feel comfortable with from a risk parameter. Now is a good time to reevaluate that. Because what we have seen is that people have been comfortable with a certain amount of risk over the last 10 years, because things have just been going up. And so now that things aren't just going up, what they thought of risk and how they feel comfortable managing it is substantially different than it has been.   Mark: Yeah. Oh definitely. Our risk tolerance level's been like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine with the risk. I'm fine. Whoa, wait a minute. I'm not so fine now, right?   Nick: Yeah. The risk over the last 10 years has been okay. I'm okay getting 8% instead of 15%,   Mark: Right.   Nick: Not oh, I'm okay being down negative 11 versus negative 20.   Mark: Yeah. Yeah.   Nick: Everything's been more on the positive side of things and even with COVID, we had the fastest bear market in history where it boomeranged right back up. And so even though that only happened a couple years ago, people have already forgotten about that.   Mark: Oh yeah. Yeah.   Nick: So, yeah. And I can't emphasize enough the importance that this sheds on having a plan and thinking longer term.   Mark: Well, there you go. So that's some countdown items to think about for the days towards retirement, sixth list, list of six things there, excuse me, that you can think about and address towards your retirement strategy. And those are the things that you'll go through when you have a plan put in place when you're working with a team like the team at PFG Private Wealth. So if you're not, then reach out to them and have a conversation, set up some time to get that started, pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. That's got all the tools, tips, and resources there. You can schedule some time. You can reach out to John and Nick and the team and get started that way. Of course, you can also find the podcast, subscribe to us on whatever platform you like to use there. So you can catch future episodes as well as check out past episodes. Again, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's going to do it this week for the podcast for John and Nick. I'm your host Mark. We'll see you next time on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

Nonprofit news for June.  Independent Sector Releases Survey On Nonprofit Trust  Independent Sector has released its third annual survey on trust within the nonprofit and civil society sector. The findings show that nonprofits still benefit from strong public trust (56% of respondents say they trust nonprofits), making NPOs among the few social institutions that the majority of the public trust, along with small businesses and community members. However, the sector saw a statistically significant decrease of 3% in trust compared to 2020. The survey also found that education and financial wellbeing drive nonprofit trust, that purpose-driven integrity is essential, and that Gen Z is increasingly skeptical of the nonprofit sector. The survey fielded answers from 3,015 Americans and had a margin of error of +/- 2%. Read more ➝   Summary   233 mass shootings have happened so far in 2022: nonprofit | The Hill  Rising gas prices affect delivery operations for nonprofits | KSHB 41 Kansas City News Inflation impacts nonprofit's ability to feed thousands of kids over the summer | CBS 46 News  Small Nonprofits Shouldn't Be Subjected to the Same Payroll Tax as Amazon and ExxonMobil | The Chronicle of Philanthropy  Nonprofit helps formerly incarcerated firefighters get jobs | WesternSlopeNow           Rought Transcript [00:00:00] George: This week on the nonprofit news feed for gosh, June 6th, June 6th, the week of June 6th, we were talking about some of the information coming out of the independent sector on a survey, a non-profit trust, as well as some other headlines related to themes that we've been covering Nick. How's it going? [00:00:18] Nick: It's gone. Good, George. [00:00:20] George: Doing all right. Just, I had a wedding last weekend of an in-law's fun. Hadn't been to a wedding for awhile. So good time to celebrate. Hopefully nobody got COVID. [00:00:31] Nick: That's good. TIS the site TIS the season for weddings. [00:00:36] George: Yeah. weddings. weddings, and funerals. They go on, no matter what I'll say that. [00:00:41] Nick: That is true. But bring us back to the nonprofit news. We'll start off with our first story, which comes from independent sector. Independent sector has released its third annual survey on trust within the non-profit and civil society sector. And the findings show that while nonprofits still benefit from strong. [00:01:02] Trust where 56% of respondents say they still trust non-profits. This is actually a decrease of 3% in overall trust in nonprofits compared to 2020, there are a couple other really interesting findings within the report. One is that nonprofits were the strongest institution when it comes to public trust, beating. [00:01:27] Legacy institutions like government, the media substantially that being said, there's a couple of interests. Nuances and the data and the survey found that education and financial wellbeing drove non-profit trust. In fact, education level was the prime determinant more than any other demographic determinant of trust in non-profit organizations. [00:01:53] They also found that gen Z is increasingly skeptical of the nonprofit sector, not having a negative. uh, perspective per se. But not having a positive one either. So the jury is still out on them when it comes to building that trust in non-profits as a social institution. But George, what were your takeaways from these really interesting and important survivors? [00:02:19] George: yeah, just to start, I always try to find and understand the sample size. In this case, it is a U S general population of 3000 with a margin of error of plus or minus 2%. So any number you hear it's like give or take a couple points. So that's just important to put in mind. I think the differences based on age range, And rising generation being a touch more skeptical is in line, uh, overall positive in terms of this report that I look for is just look, we're talking about people's trust across businesses, government, media, and nonprofits, these four major pillars of information in our society and nonprofits continue to be at the top of it. [00:03:05] Overall trust erosion, just seemingly undercutting everybody. However, nonprofits just play this incredible role with regard to communicating valuable information at a time of mistrust. And so I, you know, I always like seeing that in terms of nonprofits being up there, but the overall number, I believe slipped 3% for nonprofits, right. [00:03:28] Nick: It did. Yeah. The overall number. Crease 3%. However, it was still high at 56%. And the only other social institution that was rated that high in the survey were small businesses and just local communities and community of members. So in terms of our social institutions, nonprofits are still the highest, but yes did slip 3%. [00:03:55] George: I'd say the other piece that I pulled out here is the biggest differentiating demographics. Characteristic is college non-college so more highly educated individuals in this particular survey, uh, were, uh, at a higher likelihood to be trusting the social impact sector, nonprofits and philanthropy. [00:04:17] Nick: That's an interesting one to me. And I think it goes. I think it's interesting because a lot of nonprofits, particularly those that focus on social welfare, uh, might be helping folks in poverty or who may not have had the ratty opportunity to go to higher education. So maybe an interesting dichotomy between. [00:04:44] The folks who might be funding contributing, running, and building non-profits versus beneficiaries uh, potential beneficiaries of those services. And of course that's a broad oversimplification, but to me that was, that was somewhat. George, what do you make of gen Z being more skeptical of nonprofits as an institution? [00:05:07] The, the actual data show that they were more trusting of, uh, crowdfunding, uh, type campaigns and a little bit more enthusiastic about, uh, about donating, for example, to those games. [00:05:22] George: Part of me is not surprised. Ultimately, rising generations tend to have higher levels of skepticism of institutions that pre-existed, that are run disproportionately sometimes by the other generation. And just, it's like a natural curve of what goes. The rise in, in crowdfunding and crowdfunding philanthropy is it's a personal frustration of mine because I don't believe it is the most intelligent way to distribute funds for a public. [00:05:49] Good. I think it's the most popular, I think it's the most social, I think it is near term, gratifying, longterm, even potentially destabilize. To say here's how philanthropy should be done. Where as a massive crowd, smarter than an individual who studies a topic, there are times when the crowd is far smarter, but there are other times when, you know, maybe an organization that has got 10 employees doesn't need $45 million in the span of four days. [00:06:20] Maybe that's a thing that you have to sort of balance. And I think, you know, it's a pendulum, it's a pendulum of a philanthropy that all, uh, Obviously, uh, come and go. And maybe the rising generation pro you know, like coming up, we'll be like, wait a minute. We've seen this show too many times. And the only person who wins in crowdfunding consistently as a crowdfunding platform. [00:06:41] Okay. [00:06:42] Nick: That's fair. I guess in turn, gen Z's are, are skeptical. You are, and we are skeptical of gen Z, uh, over simplification again, but. [00:06:53] George: Yeah, I mean, you also saw this in a macro around crypto, and obviously I've not shied away from being a fan of crypto philanthropy. However, it does also make that crowdfunding a lot easier. I cannot go understated the fact that millions and millions of dollars were sent to the Ukraine without the permission of the guiding powers that be to do so. [00:07:16] And that's, it feels very gratifying in the most. And you know, who who's to say how, you know, 80 plus million is, is being, being used. And it was something that when you take away the middle people, institutions and controlling bodies in place, like you just get money to where you think it needs to go, and it will have different types of second order effects both positive and negative. [00:07:46] Nick: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's that's fair. Agree. All right, we'll move on to our next story. And this comes from the hill and is a little bit more sobering. And the hill reports that data from the gun violence archive, which is a nonprofit has supported 233 mass shootings that have taken place so far this year in the United States. [00:08:11] And this data comes amid the fallout. Several devastating shootings in New York, Texas, Oklahoma. And just with seems like, uh, increasing temperature in the country when it comes to, uh, gun violence. But what struck me about this? Wasn't so much the gun violence as. As terrible as it is not something I'm surprised about sadly, but that the most definitive source on this is actually coming from a nonprofit and the gun violence archive is the go-to source for news organizations and researchers, uh, trying to assess. [00:08:53] Gun violence and mass shootings in particular in the United States. So really interesting that a nonprofit is stepping up here and filling that void, uh, to provide the public with really vital information that for a long time, The government, for example, was barred from studying you know, government agencies were barred from studying the health effects of gun violence. [00:09:15] So there was very, oh yeah, this is famously. That rule was lifted only within the past couple of years. But the CDC, I think it's, the CDC wanted to do a research on gun violence and Congress specifically for beta in the allocation of. So there's kind of a dearth of national data on gun violence and mass shootings. [00:09:43] And the data is all over the place. But it seems that this nonprofit is really kind of DFR Tate of a source of truth on this. [00:09:51] George: Yeah. I think getting back to definitely check this out. Gun violence, archive.org. I'm embarrassed. I had never seen this nonprofit, but it's a great model for showing how you can use data, information and honesty to hold up the mirror to society and say, this is what the numbers tell us about what's going on. [00:10:14] This isn't. I mean, as much as you can say, it's like, it's not an agenda here. It's just your, your numbers. You're not doing well by any measure of what's going on here. And the question is, is this, this, you know, what is, what is tolerant? You know, there's twenty twenty one, six hundred and ninety two mass shootings. [00:10:34] Is that tolerant of a society. I mean, it was tolerant then it was tolerant in 2020 with 610. Mass shootings. It was tolerant by our society in 2019, with 417 mass shootings. At what point, I wonder because the amount of mass shootings per year, it's some sort of threshold. And this organization seems to be asking that direct question by holding the numbers up, uh, as well as other total incidents of guns and other pieces, but the mass shootings. [00:11:10] Uh, particularly of importance because we made assault rifles legal in this country after having them be illegal throughout the nineties. And we simply let the clock expire on that permission. And now I know they're debating slowly, whether or not that might change, but I think one take a look at gun violence, archive.org, to take a look at how your organization responds to your own cause and your backyard, not just gun violence, but how might data be used in this. [00:11:37] way? [00:11:38] To effect change and to hold up that social mirror. [00:11:41] Nick: Absolutely George, that's a great analysis and I have a little bit more. And formation on the law. I was talking about there's a 19 66, 19 96 rule that passed through Congress, uh, called the Dickey amendment, which barred the CDC and other government research organizations from using funds to quote, to advocate or promote gun control, which was widely seen as essentially prohibiting any study of gun violence. [00:12:08] Or gun sales, what have you at the federal level, uh, but, uh, here's to have been repealed in 2019. But, uh, the article goes on to quote that there is a decade gap of, uh, data there that needs to be filled in. So like you said, this, this nonprofits doing tremendous, tremendous public service. [00:12:32] All right, I'll take us into our next story. And this comes from at KSHB 41, Kansas city news, and I'm going to package it with, uh, the next story from CBS 46 news. And these two articles about rising gas prices affecting delivery operations for nonprofits and similarly. Inflation impacting nonprofits ability to feed thousands of kids over the summer. [00:13:01] So we have two local stories here. One is a nonprofit, uh, you know, the price of gasoline is affecting their ability, uh, to, to move, uh, goods around and their operations. And uh, this other story. Inflation, uh, which we've talked about on this podcast, really impacting food banks and other, uh, services providing nonprofits. [00:13:23] But, uh, George, do we see this abating anytime soon? Is this going to be a problem for the long-term? Do we think how, how should we think about this kind of a macro economic, or even just a macro level? [00:13:39] George: So one of the reasons I brought up the articles that I did, I mean, there's so many of these articles about inflation. We talked about it on here, but the shift in the summer is that the school food programs that disproportionately feed a tremendous amount of food, insecure young people in this country through public schools. [00:13:57] Goes away during the summer. And so there's going to be a different level of food insecurity, hitting families across the country. This summer, while gas continues to rise and food prices continue to clearly hit new inflation highs and the cost of, uh, and the cost of food to feed, uh, is going, you know, that that need, that has to be met and it's disproportionate during the summer. [00:14:21] So these ones should program. Uh, or something that I was just looking at. And so if your organization is in and around it, I think messaging the urgency associated with a shift that, that could maybe help with fundraising or improving the narrative. [00:14:36] Nick: Absolutely. I agree. Those programs serve such a vital importance for our school students. And. The summer is hard for a lot of families that don't have not only the those food programs, but even then have to consider things like childcare or paying for camp or whatever it may be. Puts a lot of, a lot of burden on, on folks. [00:15:00] So that's a great thing to flag. All right, our next article, George, I know this is one, uh, that you're a topic you're passionate about and you're passionate about it because you, in fact wrote this article and the title is small. Non-profits, shouldn't be subjected to the same payroll's hacks as Amazon and Exxon mobile written by you in the Chronicle of philanthropy. [00:15:26] Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you. [00:15:30] George: I'm just going to admit, I know this is just shameless. It's shameless for me to bring my own article into our own newsfeed. However, this has been on my mind for probably a couple of years of how effectively the same payroll tax, right? When you pay an employee. That sort of percentage of payroll tax that goes to state and federal, which, you. [00:15:50] know, 10 to 14% give or take is the same rate that a Facebook exec, sorry, Mehta, exac, or somebody at Exxon or somebody at any other size organization is paying the same percentage rate instead of something like, and maybe you're like, oh, that makes sense. [00:16:06] It's a flat thing. Except if you look at our income tax, it's a progressive tax. The percent that a billionaire has to pay is more. On paper, at least than somebody making minimum wage yet at the point of sale at the point of the moment where the nonprofit or the fortune 100 company is paying the person, that's the same percentage rate. [00:16:31] And so I'm suggesting here a policy where in nonprofits that. Our smaller frankly, uh, that are smaller for effectively. I'm calling about a quarter million charities that are operating with less than a hundred employees and less than 5 million in annual revenue. Basically for, you know, a few billion dollars could essentially we could remove the payroll tax. [00:16:56] They're giving them an extra 10%, uh, operating to either raise wages, to hire people, to serve the communities that they already do. And, and by the way, they are, you know, 5 0 1 C3. So they are doing public good. Uh, and I put the cap on that in terms of the Cypress medical thing is because I don't think a nonprofit with like 10,000 employees is the same. [00:17:18] Type of situation that a smaller under 100 person nonprofit is. And yeah, it's a, it's a it's part thought experiment, but also part super freaking practical that literally for a cost of 3.7 billion I'd calculated, which could easily be made up with a progressive tax that we're in up a touch more for organizations like Amazon. [00:17:44] To pay cause they can't get around those taxes the same way they can on income tax on, on their, on their corporate taxes. They can't get away from the fact that they need to pay humans to do work. And that's where a percent is taken out. It'd be pretty easy to move up half a point for organizations that are operating over a billion dollars because they're dodging their freaking taxes. [00:18:05] Anyway. Anyway, this is a window into how. I get with social impact. [00:18:12] Nick: We love geekiness onto this podcast. And George I'd hesitate to guess that listeners who've made it this far into the podcast are just as geeky. So I think we are in good company, but I wish I had, I wish I had a room. I [00:18:27] Uh, we'll look at the data. We'll see many people make it this far. I wish I had a room to, to get you in someone to talk to someone in a suit in a, in a nice office in DC, because I think they need to hear. [00:18:41] George: Well, I'm not going to give up on this idea. I don't know where to go next. I did get a quote from the independent sector, uh, that, you know, they, they do think it's you know, potentially plausible and they, they said there is, uh, some type of, you know, precedent for this type of tax. But. We'll say, I don't know where to go with it next, but I tend not to let things drop, so I'll keep pushing this. [00:19:04] And if anybody listening just wants to take this and run with it, please go, go do it. I'll give you the research. Cause I should be doing my real job instead of trying to push something like this, [00:19:18] Nick: It's for the public. Good. And speaking of public. Good. How about a feel, good story from our favorite. [00:19:26] George: please. [00:19:28] Nick: All right. This story comes from a Western slope now.com not entirely sure, but it is about a nonprofit that's helping, helping formerly incarcerated firefighters get jobs. So it's, well-known that, especially out west, including in California, Oregon, and Washington states have relied on incarcerated men and women. [00:19:52] Wildfires. And that's all, that's a whole other conversation. But they are often trained to perform here at grueling work while earning just a few dollars, sometimes as little as $2 a day. However, there is a nonprofit group with some foundation backing. That's trying to help those firefighters turn their in carceral rated job into a real job. [00:20:19] Upon, uh, their release. So it's helping folks get the, uh, the certifications they need. Cause they already have the real-world training. I've already been doing it. They basically already are firefighters. But helping incarcerated folks, uh, turn what they learned during, during prison into a career. [00:20:38] And I think that's really tremendous. It helps, uh, reintegrate firefighters into, or formerly incarcerated folks. Newly firefighters into our communities. It helps them, uh, serve a public good and public benefit. And we interview when the individuals who participated. And he was saying that he felt that he had something to give back to society and was really proud to be able to serve in that capacity. [00:21:02] So this is a really innovation, innovative program, I think. And I'm for any kind of program that helps formerly incarcerated folks reintegrate into society, uh, because. It reduces recidivism and it has a whole host of other social benefits, but cool to see. [00:21:20] George: That's a really great quote in here from a a person. Uh, incarcerated and Brandon Smith says when you're incarcerated, you have this stigma of being a public nuisance. Being a firefighter, provided an opportunity for me to give back to community and give myself a sense of pride. It was something I wanted to continue as a way of giving back to the community once I came home. [00:21:44] But they noted that after his sentence was completed in 2014, it really wasn't clear how to essentially become a firefighter, even though he was. Already trained in that. And so the certificate cations that he received while incarcerated didn't count and he, uh, and he couldn't even apply for some positions do the criminal records. [00:22:05] So this is a great nonprofit. And by the way, you know, speaking to somebody who's in California, like we need firefighters very, very much so also across the Midwest, because it's going to be a very tough fire season. So hats off to these folks. All right, Nick. Thank you. [00:22:22] Nick: Thanks, arch.

Show Notes 00:00 Introduction 00:22 Medicare part A 06:39 Medicare part B 15:35 Medicare part D Links Referenced: medicare.gov: https://medicare.gov Zach's email: mailto:zach@getsbi.com Nick's email: mailto:nick@getsbi.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc Webpage: https://seniors-livinghealthy.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to our fireside chat with Seniors Living Healthy, the podcast that helps prepare and educate you as you enter and live out your golden years. With over 10 years of experience, Nick and Zach are experts in the senior market and are here to help you live a healthy, full life. And now fireside with your hosts, Nick Keene, and Zach Haire.Nick: Hello, and welcome to season two of Seniors Living Healthy, episode one. I'm Nick. And I have Zach, our co-host with us.Zach: Hey, folks.Nick: And for episode one of season two, we want to cover parts A, B, and D of Medicare, and the changes for 2022. So Zach, let's jump right in.Zach: Sounds good. So, kind of start off there from the top, Part A, just like in the alphabet, starting out with the first letter there, you know, that is our hospitalization, sir. You know, Nick, what are some common things that Part A covers?Nick: Yeah, so Part A kicks in when individuals are admitted to the hospital. It's worth mentioning, Zach, that they're admitted because we are seeing more commonly that people are being put in the hospital under observation. And that is actually covered under Part B. So, very simply, anytime someone is admitted to the hospital, not under observation, Part A kicks in.Zach: Got you. So, let's say, you know, I'm getting ready to turn 65 in a few months. I'm still working things like that, how do I get Part A? What do I have to do to qualify for it?Nick: Great question, Zach. We do get this question quite frequently. So, the most common way to qualify for Medicare is those individuals that have worked 40 quarters or ten years and paid into Medicare via payroll taxes, right? Those individuals get Medicare the month of their 65th birthday.Zach: Got you. So, no matter what, they're going to get Part A. I know you said you paid into it while you're working. Is there any additional costs added to that?Nick: Right. So, great question there, Zach, and worth mentioning here as well. For those individuals that qualify traditionally for Medicare, they worked 40 quarters, ten years, and paid in, Part A is premium-free, think of it as prepaid. But also you have those individuals that may qualify based on their spouse's, right? Their spouses may have worked 40 quarters or ten years, they also qualify for Medicare Part A the month of their 65th birthday.Then the third situation, there is a cost. And those individuals that don't have a spouse that qualifies for Medicare they can draw off of and don't have the credits themselves, depending on how much they have worked and paid in, Part A can be purchased.Zach: Yeah. So, you do still have the ability to get Part A, if you don't ‘qualify', you can always pay for that and pick it up.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: So, we know that in most cases, there's no additional premium; you've paid into it as you were working. Are there any other, you know, common costs associated with using Part A, whether it be a deductible, whether it be you know, skilled facility care, things such as that?Nick: Absolutely. So, yeah. So, basically with Part A, the way it works is it's designed with what we call a Medicare period of care, right? So, when those individuals that have Part A are admitted to the hospital, they are immediately responsible for a $1,556 deductible in the year 2022 that covers their first 60 days in their period of care, right? So, for those individuals, they go in, they pay that $1556 deductible, they're covered for the first 60 days, right?But it's worth mentioning that if they go beyond day 60 they do have additional cost, right? And that period of care doesn't end until they go a continuous 60 days without accessing care under Part A. So, assuming their period of care extends, day 61 through 90, those individuals are going to be responsible for $389 a day that they're in the hospital, and day 91 and beyond using those 60 lifetime reserve days, they're going to be responsible for $778 a day. You know, and the other thing to touch on here, Zach, that you mentioned is skilled facility care, right? So, we've seen a major transition in our market over the last five to ten years.You can recall when we were little, people had extended stays in the hospital, you know, people were in their one, two, four, six months. That doesn't happen really anymore, right? What we're seeing, the trend is individuals are being admitted to the hospital, they're being stabilized, and they're being shipped off to skilled facility care centers, right? And you know, whether that's for a hip replacement or a knee replacement, they fell and they broke something, speech, occupational therapy, whatever it may be, these individuals are staying at the skilled facility care centers for extended periods of time, not in the hospital. So, to qualify for Medicare to cover skilled facility care, they have to be in the hospital for at least three days and be admitted to the skilled facility care center within 30 days of being discharged. If those criteria are met, Medicare will cover day 1 through 20, one hundred percent, and then day 21 through 100, the individual is responsible for $194.50 per day.Zach: Got you there. So, you know, once someone is on Part A [everything 00:05:16], is there any limits where they can go, networks, anything like that?Nick: Yeah, one of the beauties of Medicare, Zach, and you know, we tell clients this all the time is Medicare's a nationwide program, right? California, North Carolina, Michigan, to Florida, and everywhere in between. They can access care, right? And that's one of the great things about Medicare is almost all facilities, almost all doctor's office accept Medicare. So, they have no restrictions, they can go just about anywhere they want.Zach: Got you. So, kind of wrapping up Part A there is, anyone can get that as long as you've worked 40 quarters or your spouse has worked 40 quarters. You're able to get that the month you turn 65, the first day of the month.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: And no matter whether you're continuing working or what you've got Part A?Nick: Yep.Zach: And with Part A alone, there was a $1,556 deductible on that they'd be responsible for but then, you know, it does help you in the skilled facility care things such as that, along with your 60-day continuous window of care. And again, no network so you can go wherever you want to go if you've got that Part A; pretty much every hospital, I'd say, in America takes Medicare.Nick: Absolutely, Zach. And just to wrap up on Part A, you know, one of the things that people need to remember is Part A is just hospital admittance insurance. Most of your typical services that are everyday needs are happening on outpatient care, or Part B, which we will be covering shortly.Zach: All right, so now we're going to roll into Part B, again, following our alphabet here, B comes right after A. So B, if you look at your red, white, and blue Medicare card, it is going to say medical, but we refer to it as outpatient.Nick: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we try to eliminate confusion there because the Medicare card says ‘hospital' for Part A and ‘medical' for Part B, but we kind of feel both of those are medical, right? So, we like to explain Part B as anything that is outpatient care, or care that is not admitted into the hospital.Zach: Exactly, yeah. So, kind of got that cleared up. What exactly does it cover when it comes to different things?Nick: Yeah. So, Part B is by far the most common Medicare part, right? It's the most common used, and it literally covers any Medicare-approved charge outside of being admitted to the hospital, right? So, that could be hospital admittance under observation, that could be lab work, physical therapy, CAT scans, MRIs, doctor visits, primary care, or specialists, durable medical equipment, diabetic testing supplies, all those things encompass Part B.Zach: So, we know in Part A you get that automatically when you turn 65. Part B work the same way, or is there a few more hoops to jump through for that?Nick: Yes. So, for Part B, you know, that individual that qualifies for Medicare, either off their work experience or off of a spouse's work experience, they still are eligible to get Part B the month of their 65th birthday, right? However, with Part B, there is a premium, so Medicare does allow it to be elective.Zach: So, with it being elective, how does that situation play out? Do I have to take Part B when I turned 65? If I have creditable coverage, am I fine? You know, if I don't take am I going to get penalized? How does that work?Nick: Yeah, so we're seeing this question come across our desk more and more, Zach. It seems like in this day and age, more and more people are working post-65. We didn't run into this a lot five years ago. But basically, the way it's working is for those individuals that are Medicare-eligible, turning 65, they qualify for Medicare, they can still take Part B the month of their 65th birthday, but if they're still working and have credible coverage, right, which is defined as coverage, at least equivalent to Medicare, they do not have to take Part B. They can postpone it without penalty, assuming they have credible coverage.Zach: Got you. So, you said, you know, 2022, that average premium is $170.10.Nick: Yep.Zach: Which leads you to say if that's the average, there can be some outliers. Is there a way to make that cost lower?Nick: Yeah. So, you know, for a lot of individuals out there, they qualify for what's called Medicare Savings Programs, right? And we know those different programs, whether that's QMB, SLMB, Extra Help those types of things, those programs are designed to reduce or eliminate the premiums, deductibles, and copays associated with Part B, right? So, there are individuals that pay less, there are individuals that pay nothing if they qualify for those Medicare Savings Programs. And it's worth mentioning, to qualify for those programs, you need to reach out to Medicare, the Social Security office that goes through them.Zach: I'd be willing to bet it works the other way, too. I bet they can get a multiplier on you also.Nick: Yep, yep. So, what we see—you know, and once again, we're seeing it more and more as people are coming out of the workforce later in life—those individuals have what's called an IRMA, right, Income-Related Medicare Adjustment. So, if you have income levels above certain thresholds, Medicare is actually going to charge a multiplier, right, you're going to pay more than that $170.10 in 2022. medicare.gov is a great resource, they have the chart right there on the website, showing what those brackets are to get higher Part B costs.So, we certainly encourage people that think they may fall into that bracket, get on medicare.gov, reach out to us, you know, we can ask a couple questions and tell them what they would be looking at.Zach: Got you. So, kind of how we're on the cost of Part B—Nick: Sure.Zach: You know, if someone doesn't have credible coverage and they don't take Part B, then down the road they take Part B, what kind of penalty are they looking at?Nick: Yeah, so the government is penalizing those individuals that don't have Medicare and don't have credible coverage, right? And the penalty that they impose is 10% of the cost of Part B, per full year not covered either via Part B or creditable coverage, right? And it's worth mentioning, if they try to apply for Part B down the road, they're still going to pay that standard premium, they're going to pay that penalty on top of it, and unless they qualify for one of those Medicare Savings Programs like we were talking about, that's never going away.Zach: Yep so looking there, at you know—there are different times to enroll, in that, you know, when people do turn 65, a lot of times they take A and B at the same time.Nick: Yep.Zach: You can delay Part B, as we've talked about. What are those—that situation look like? If someone delays Part B, does that vary from when they turn 65?Nick: Absolutely. So, for individuals that are taking Original Medicare when they're turning 65, those individuals, you know, they get it the month of their 65th birthday. But for those individuals that are delaying Medicare, right, there's two different groups that it's worth mentioning here. For those people that have credible coverage that are still working, you know, they can take Part B anytime concurrent with their loss of coverage, or retirement, right, they have what's called a special election period. But the thing to mention is for those individuals that delay Part B that don't have credible coverage, they can only apply for Part B at certain times throughout the year, right?And that's what's called the general election period. Zach, right? And basically what that is a period from January 1st through March 31st each year that they can apply for Medicare Part B to go into effect 7/1 of that year.Zach: Right. So, you know, kind of look at you have your annual enrollment period, which is every year, October 15th, December 7th, which doesn't really play into this, but then you have your initial enrollment, which people might hear a lot about when they first turned 65, or take their Part B of Medicare. So, looking at, you know, we've kind of we've gone over what the premium can be as well as what possibly the penalty could be. As a whole, what does Part B have? What is it going to cover? What's going to be your out-of-pocket with that?Nick: Yeah, so you know, back to what we kind of mentioned earlier, just to kind of recap this is, Part B is going to cover anything that's not admitted into the hospital, right? So, you know, once again, that's hospitalization under observation; CAT scans; MRIs; lab work; physical therapy; doctor's visits, whether primary care or specialists; diabetic testing supplies; durable medical equipment. And the way Part B is designed, it's an 80/20 coinsurance, right? So, Medicare's covering 80%, the client is responsible for the remaining 20%, plus the Part B deductible, which is, in the year 2022, $233, right? So, it's worth mentioning here—and we tell this to people all the time, this is why we encourage people to get supplemental policies—that 20% that we speak of is uncapped.Now, if you're going to the doctor once a year, that's not a big deal, right? But if you're going through cancer treatments, if you're going through some sort of outpatient surgery, you got to pay 20% of all of that cost, which certainly leaves people with some exposure, right?Zach: Got you. So, you know, no max out of pocket; you know, you're going to keep paying that 20—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: —until—and again, Part B is very similar to Part A, there's no networks.Nick: Absolutely.Zach: They take Medicare, they're going to take in. As long as you may have been doing this, I don't think I've ran into a doctor's office that doesn't take Medicare, yet.Nick: Yeah. In ten years, I've ran into one facility that didn't accept Medicare.Zach: Yep. So, kind of wrapping up Part B there. Know no, it is, in a sense, elective; when you turn 65 or retire from work losing credible coverage, you can pick up Part B at that time. If you don't pick up Part B without credible coverage, they are going to give you a nice little permanent penalty to add onto that, which for 2022 is $170.10. Probably going to see an increase in that down the road.Nick: Mm-hm. Absolutely.Zach: It's going to cover everything for you 80/20, whether that be durable medical equipment, diabetic testing, outpatient surgery, or anything like that. But that 20% is not going to be capped.Nick: Yep, absolutely.Zach: All right. And kind of moving on down the line. Here we've done A, we've done B. We're going to skip over C, so we're going to hit in Part D of Medicare. Easy to remember what it covers because covers your drugs. Part D: Drugs, easy to keep up with there. So, we have talked about, you know, in Part A and Part B, how you get it, what you qualify for. How does that work with Part D?Nick: Yes, so Part D, you know, it's worth mentioning, Unlike Supplemental Coverage, or Medicare Advantage coverage, which we will be covering in next episode, With Part D, the individual only has to have a minimum of Part A or B of Medicare, although most people have A and B, right? But it's worth noting for those individuals that are still working that are delaying Part B, just having Part A is enough to purchase Part D. And it's also worth mentioning, you have to live in the plan's service area, right? Part D drug plans are network-based, so you have to have a minimum of A and/or B, and live in the plan's service area to purchase a drug plan it.Zach: So, also we've talked about cost. When it comes to cost, A and B for the most part, are standardized. Is Part D the same way, or you know, what is its cost?Nick: Yes. So, one of the things that, you know, we're always telling people as we're speaking with them is all prescription drug plans are different, right? And, you know, we see drug plans anywhere from $6.50 a month in premium in the year 2022 All the way north of $100 a month, right? And, you know, it's like we say, if one plan was the best for everybody, right, they would put the rest out of the business.So, as far as costs, it certainly has a wide range, and that all depends on what the scripts, what medications those individuals are taking, right? But it's also worth mentioning, just like Part B of Medicare, right? Medicare Savings Programs can cover some or all of the costs of the drug plans and can also either reduce or completely eliminate the cost of those medications people are taking as well, right? So, it can come down. And it's also worth mentioning, IRMA coming back into play here, right, that Income-Related Medicare Adjustment, for those individuals that are higher-level earners, right, they have a multiplier on that Part D premium, so they would pay that multiplier on top of the standard premium for Part D.Zach: Pretty easy to see why Part D is the most complicated part of our job—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: When it comes there. So, you know, kind of covered, premiums are going to vary, and then on top of that you could get help through Medicare, or you could get a multiplier on Medicare there. So, what does it take to qualify for Part D? I know you said yet to have Part A and/or Part B, one or the other, but what if I'm-you know, what, if I'm in that boat where I'm still working? Do I have to take Part D if I have Part A, or can I forgo it?Nick: Yeah. So, very similar to Part B, Part D is elective right? Now, you have to have credible coverage to not be penalized, but you can delay it. So, if you're 65, you're becoming Medicare eligible, you're still working, or maybe you're retired and you're still carrying group insurance, you don't have to take a drug plan as long as your coverage is credible. And once again, credible [unintelligible 00:18:59] coverage is defined as coverage at least equivalent to Medicare's basic coverage, right?So, for those individuals that are still working, they are not needing Medicare Part D, they will not be penalized for not taking a Medicare prescription drug plan.Zach: So, you said they—you know, if they have credible coverage, they're not going to be penalized, which therefore means there's a penalty.Nick: Yep.Zach: What is that penalty?Nick: Yeah. So, it's a little bit different than the way Part B works. So, for Part D, the average cost of a per prescription drug plan in 2022 is approximately $34. So, every full month that they go without credible coverage, or coverage, they are going to be penalized 1% of that $34 premium in the year 2022, times the amount of full months they went without coverage. Now, it's worth noting that average premium costs switches year-to-year, right? We've watched that steadily creep up over the last few years.So, you know, it's very hard for us to be able to give people an exact penalty, what they would be looking at. Medicare is who's going to determine those, Medicare is who's going to issue those, so we can give people an idea, but ultimately that information has to come from Medicare, right?Zach: Got you there. So, you know, we know when you first turn 65 going into Medicare, you can get Part D, if you go that route.Nick: Yep.Zach: What if I've been 65 for a while and I get some new prescriptions, it's not covered well on my plan, when can I make changes to those?Nick: Yes. So, for those individuals that are new to Medicare, they're in that initial enrollment period, right? That window runs three months before their effective date up to three months after. Once that period ends, right, they're very limited in the ways that they can make changes, right, the most common is annual enrollment period, right? Anybody that's been in this business, knows anything about it, they get bombarded, you know, in that timeframe.But from October 15th through December 7th, those individuals can make changes, as many as they want, and when the sun goes down December 7th, the last application that was signed and turned in becomes effective 1/1, right? But now over the last few years, you know, Medicare introduced the Medicare Advantage open enrollment period, right, which is now running January 1st through March 31, and during that timeframe, individuals that are on Medicare Advantage plans can make a change to their drug coverage in two different forms, right? So, they can change from one Medicare Advantage plan to another Medicare Advantage plan, or if they so choose, they can drop Medicare Advantage back to Original Medicare and pick up a prescription drug plan. But outside of those two windows, Zach, the only other situation, typically, that we see people can make changes is they have a special election period, right? And in our business, what that means is, A, they're moving, right?In our area, we see people coming down from the north moving here, or maybe they're snowbirds, they're moving from here or the north down to Florida. Those individuals get a special election period because they're moving out of that plan's service area, right? And then the other caveat would be those individuals that are post-65 that are still working, that are still carrying group insurance, those individuals have a special election period when they retire and/or lose coverage that they can make a change to their drug coverage as well.Zach: So, kind of off that point, there are networks on these drug plans that does give you the ability to change if you do move because you would be out of your network service area—Nick: Absolutely.Zach: There. Yep. So, you know, we talk to people all the time, especially [AEP 00:22:44] about prescription plans. When you're talking to us, talking to your agent, whoever, when you're going through this, one, you know, what are some things you need to make sure you have handy to make our lives easier as an agent, but then what—tell them on our end what we're looking at, to help them make a decision?Nick: Yeah, so I'm going to answer that question backwards, Zach, okay? I'm going to answer your second question first, and we'll fire away on the second one. So, for those individuals that are looking, right, to get prescription drug coverage, there's several things that they need to understand about a plan, or at least grasp, right, to know why it is what we're doing, right? It's easy for us to recommend a solution, but we feel—I know, we've always discussed this—we feel that ultimately, you know, it's our job to educate people, but it is ultimately their decision, right?So, for us, you know, what we're looking at, you know, in the grand scheme here is overall cost, right? I mean, you know, that's what I want to know, what are these plans going to cost you, whether that's in the form of a premium, whether that's in the form of a deductible on your plan, whether that's in the form of the copays you pay to fill your script each year, we're looking at that aggregate annual cost, right? Now, as far as what we need to be effective as a tool for them in searching plans, you know, all plans are different, Zach, as we know. The premium is different, some plans have deductibles, some don't, some offers zero copay on tier one, tier two, some don't, right?So, what we ask of clients to be effective in this manner is we need a list of your prescriptions, we need to know the dosages of each one of your prescriptions, and then we ultimately need to know the frequency that you're taking them or filling them, and we have the ability to plug in and pull all options in their area and discuss those costs with them.Zach: Yeah, definitely. So, kind of wrapping up Part D, put a bow on it there. It is similar to B, it's elective—Nick: Sure.Zach: —in a sense. As long as you've got credible coverage elsewhere, you don't have to take Part D at the time you turn 65. As long as you have A or B, you are eligible for it. And plans vary. This is a plan that you definitely need to reach out to your agent, reach out to us—Nick: We'd prefer if it was us, Zach.Zach: Yeah. [laugh]. Oh, yeah. And so, you know—because they do vary so much by premium, deductibles, copays, networks, things like that, but they will cover your prescriptions; there are ways out there to work that.Nick: Yeah. Just to add, wrapping up here, Zach, you know, one of the things that we always preach to our agents and we always tell our clients is, this is the basics of everything that has to do with Medicare, right? So, we feel that these are important, people need to have a grasp of the way that Original Medicare and prescription drug coverage works before they're really ever going to have a chance, right, to know how that secondary or that Medicare Advantage plan works.So, as you're listening to this, we've kind of been generic, right? We're covering the highlights. For those individuals that have more questions that maybe have a specific question, you know, reach out to us, 844-437-4253. We're here, we're ready to answer your questions, and we'd certainly love to hear from you.Zach: All right, folks. So, this kind of wraps up episode one here. We covered Parts A, B, and D of Medicare. We hope that that helped you out there, answered some questions for you. We tried to cover some of the real basic questions we get on a daily basis.You know, but if you do have more questions or want more information, you know, ready to sign up and looking for help, we'd be more than happy to help. You know, as Nick stated earlier, you can always give us a call at 844-437-4253, or we can always be reached by email zach@getsbi.com or nick@getsbi.com. We hope you found this episode informational and helpful, and as always, we'll catch you guys next time.Announcer: Thank you for listening, and we hope you found this episode informative. If we answered your questions, odds are you aren't the only one wanting to know, so please share this episode with your friends and family. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and rate our show on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts to catch all of our episodes. If you want more information, or want to talk directly with Nick and Zach, you can call them at 1-844-437-4253. You can also find them on Facebook at facebook.com/seniorbenefitinc or on their website. seniors-livinghealthy.com. Thanks for listening, and have a great day.

There are plenty of external factors that often negatively influence our chances of having a successful retirement. But often, failure comes from within. On this episode, we'll talk about some of the common ways people get in their own way when it comes to financial planning. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey, everybody. Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's Retirement Planning Redefined with John, and Nick, and myself. And we're going to talk about the secret to retirement success. Here, it is. Get out of your own way. Typically, we are the success or the reason for failure, one of the two, because we tend to muck up the works ourselves by often injecting our emotions and thoughts into these things. And rightfully so, because that's part of it, which I think, again, we're going to talk about the value of working with a team and some professionals like John and Nick, because we tend to get in our own way. And I think we all realize that we do that in many aspects of life, and certainly money is one of those. What's going on, guys? How you doing this week, Nick? What's up buddy?   Nick: Everything's great. Perfect.   Mark: Yeah. Rock and rolling?   Nick: Yep.   Mark: Feeling good?   Nick: Yep. It's great.   Mark: That's fantastic. John, how you feeling my friend?   John: Doing all right. A little upset over the weekend. The Celtics lost game three to the Miami Heat, but there's another game tonight. So-   Mark: Another chance.   John: Hoping that they could tie up the series.   Mark: There you go. Fantastic. Well...   Nick: Yeah. I'll throw in a good gold [inaudible 00:01:01] lightning, our own fire.   Mark: Okay.   Nick: Free nothing as we record this.   Mark: Nice. Very nice. So what do you think about my statement there, getting out of our own way? There's lots of external factors obviously, that negatively influenced stuff in our retirement world. Right? We can't control the markets, but we can control how we react to them. Do you feel like that's a fairly accurate assessment of finding some keys to success sometimes is, getting out of your own head?   John: Yeah. Yeah. I would 100% agree with that. And we're seeing that right now where the market is, it's down year to date. There's a lot of negative news out there and, there's always negative news out there. But there's a lot of things happening in the world and it's creating a lot of fear. And what that does is it really eats into people's perceptions of what's going on with their portfolios. So naturally what's happening is, hey, when is the bleeding going to stop? Do I need to pull out of the market? Do I need to get more conservative? What should I do? So this is really a period of time where, important to get out of your own way and just stay the course.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And we harp on it quite a bit in all of our podcasts, but this is where the plan is essential, because we've had some reviews and people are nervous and rightfully so. But when they see the plan, it's like, how does this 10% pull back, whatever it is at the time, affect your overall plan? And they look at it and they say, oh, it doesn't really affect that much, just yet.   Mark: Right.   John: And when they see that, it's like, oh, okay, that makes you feel a little bit better. See where I'm at. So yeah, 100%, stay the course and definitely get out of your own way so you make good decisions.   Mark: And I think if we're talking with the market being the first one on the list, fear and greed, that's the normal stuff, jumping in and jumping out. And we tend to feel like it's the only thing we can do are these two things anyway. A lot of people, we're going to touch on that in a minute as well, but often it's well, all I can do is the market are cash and the market's scaring, the pa jeepers out of me so let me just jump out, and that's typically when we're making the wrong decision, especially if you don't have a plan. So having a strategy in there, because yes, it stinks when we're losing, we talked a little bit about on the last episode. Everybody's fine with risk when the markets have been on fire for 12 and a half years or whatever, but when they get real shaky for a few months, that's when people tend to get in their own way and allow that fear or greed to jump in there.   Mark: So since we covered that one on your initial part there, John, I'm going to jump to number two. No, go ahead. If you've got something else.   John: Yeah, yeah. One, actually you mentioned greed there and actually, it plays into the fear thing as well-   Mark: Okay.   John: Because, we've talked about the markets running up and when that's happening it's, I only got X percent this year. If I was more aggressive, I would've got a little bit more. So we have had those conversations where it's like, hey, should I get more aggressive? And the answer is no. Go to the plan, look at your risk tolerance, stay the course because when you try to get greedy and then all of a sudden, let's say you do go to a more aggressive portfolio.   Mark: Right.   John: And we have a big pullback in the S&P and in equities and all of a sudden, you're more nervous than you should be because you're taking more risk. And now you start to jump out and you get to that fear stage and you just make bad decisions.   Mark: Yeah. Great point. Great point. Well, Nick, talk to me a little bit about getting in our own way, when it comes to picking an investment or doing something solely because we think it's a tax help, right. It's not part of the plan, it doesn't make sense in other arenas. The idea is, no I'm doing this simply for the tax advantage. Is that a bad move?   Nick: Yeah. A really good example of this would be towards the end of last year, early this year, we made a pretty big cycle in client's portfolios from the growth side of the market to the value side of the market. And so that did cause some capital gains and probably a bigger capital gain shift than we typically have for clients that are in taxable portfolios. But again, the premise was that we felt strongly that moving forward, it was going to be something that benefited them from a performance standpoint, which is the number one priority. And that's really turned out to be the case where really the value markets are down closer to 3% or 4%. The growth markets are down close to 30%. So that's kind of a perfect real world, real life example of, yes, nobody likes taxes, but sometimes taking some gains and recycling the portfolio and shifting to where we think things are going to look better moving forward, is something that makes sense.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: Taxes are again, something that people don't like and when we want to, we avoid it, but it should rarely ever be the number one priority in any sort of financial decision making.   Mark: Yeah. Don't let the tax tail wag the dog, as the saying goes, don't do something solely for the tax advantage, especially if it doesn't fit well into the overall strategy. And I'm glad that you brought up that point there where, looking at that and saying, hey, we do things, they all work together. There's a lot of these puzzle pieces that ebb and flow and move in and out together. So sometimes you do one thing and it has a ripple effect to another. And that's a great point. So I'm glad you brought that up.   Mark: John, another one on here is the cash conversation. I mentioned a minute ago, people tend to think there's only two options, the market or cash. And when it gets choppy, we go heck with this, I'm getting out and going to cash. And then we can even, maybe even just right now, we might even find this need to justify it by going, well, the Fed's ticking the rates up so I'll get a little bit more in cash, right. Even though it's nothing compared to inflation, but anyway, that can be a bad decision. You're getting in your own way. And then you might wind up just sitting there too long. And I mean, what if you jumped out in April of 20, when the pandemic was happening, we're down 30%, you jump out, you sell, you get your losses locked in and you stayed in cash the rest of 20. Well, you missed a heck of a second half.   John: Yeah. That that's accurate. And that's why it's always important to stay the course, because timing to get back in is almost impossible. Because the rallies up happen really within, if look at historically, it's always a couple of days or a week or two.   Mark: Right.   John: And if you miss it, you miss a majority of it. So important to stay the course. Be in the right risk tolerance so you don't go to cash or something like that. And then we have seen this quite a bit as well with cash in the sideline. And it can happen in an upmarket where we're hitting all time highs constantly, because it's like, hey, I don't want to put this money in because we keep hitting highs, it's going to come down at some point. And then now where it's the reverse, where we're having a pull back and it's like, well I don't want to put the money in because it's currently going down. So strategy against that would be dollar cost averaging into the market. Just piecemealing it and that typically will help some people get back into it with less risk.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And there are other strategies involved, but definitely you got to put your money to work [inaudible 00:08:15] pace inflation and especially nowadays.   Mark: That's a great point for sure. All right. So Nick helped me out here, buddy. I don't want to fall to fear. I don't want to necessarily fall to greed. I don't want to make bad choices from a tax standpoint. I don't want to go to cash and do nothing. Well now I don't know what to do, I'm just stuck. That's number four on my list. We overthink it to the point where we just freeze and we do nothing. And as the song says from the great Canadian rock band Rush, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. So doing nothing is just as bad sometimes as doing something in the wrong way.   Nick: Yes. The overthinking side of things is definitely something I have empathy for people with. It takes me about a month to book a trip and probably sitting down five different times with 20 tabs open each time. So I get the process issue.   Mark: Well, humans procrastinate. Doesn't make you bad, it just-   Nick: Yes. Yeah.   Mark: We all do it. Yeah.   Nick: For sure. But what this does and people hear this a lot from us because we talk about it a lot is, it's the importance of the plan. So a lot of times what ends up happening is, the reason that people are frozen with indecision is because they're worried about their process. They're worried about the outcome and usually the fear of the unknown is more fragile and worse than actually knowing, having some certainty on what things look like, even if they're not ideal. So when we have people that are overthinking things or are really fretting about a certain decision, usually what we try to do is go back to the plan. So hey, let's re-review the plan. Let's look and see what things look like. And one of the things that we emphasize with clients that work with us from a planning perspective, is trying to help them start to make decisions differently.     Nick: And so the way that we do planning, the way that we're able to model out different situations and scenarios, we'll joke with people, let us tell you no. Because a lot of times what happens is people are limiting themselves out of concern of the unknown. And so, let us be your guardrails a little bit, let us be the bumpers in the lane to use an analogy and we'll help you work through these decisions, but instead of worrying about what the outcomes are. It's almost impossible for people to figure out all the outcomes on their own.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: And so let us help you figure out, let's see the potential outcomes, let's see what we can do to mitigate some of the risks associated with it. And we can really narrow down. And so having that open door policy with clients and having them work with us, to work through these sorts of decisions where, we're a team member versus them trying to figure it out on their own is really important.   Mark: Nah, I like that. And I'm a heck of a bowler with the bumpers up. I'm just saying, so.   Nick: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It definitely increases the average.   Mark: It did a little, just a little bit. So to check this out, John, let's do one more here on this conversation about getting in our own way. So a friend of mine, super nice guy, we're chatting the other day and this is what he says to me. Tell me what your reaction to this. So he says, Hey, my neighbor and I, we're good buddies. We're the same age. And our house costs the same amount of money, roughly that, where we live here. He's going to cash. And he's like, and I know you talk about stuff on podcast and stuff all the time. He's going to cash and he's advising me to do the same thing. I think it's a good move. And I said, why? Because you're the same age and your house costs roughly the same? Don't you think there's like about a million more things you could base this on?   Mark: So my point being is, is getting advice from people who really don't need to give you advice. I'm sure his friend and his neighbor didn't have any ill intention, but that just seemed like a goofy scenario to me. It's water cooler talk, so many of us do that.   John: Yeah. Yeah. We see that quite a bit where people are, my friend's doing this or like you said, my neighbor's doing this, but we have to constantly remind [inaudible 00:12:20] everyone that every situation's completely different. Something that might be good for someone else isn't good for you. And that's the importance of really getting the plan and making sure all your decisions are based on your plan.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And not your neighbor, not your cousin, not whoever-   Mark: Cousin Eddie. Yeah. Right.   John: Yeah. What we typically find with this is everyone always tells you about their good decisions. Like, oh yeah. I went for cash and this is what happened. They don't tell you when they didn't make a good decision.   Mark: Yeah.   John: It's not exciting to talk about when you lost money or lost an opportunity. So definitely want to leave it to the professionals and not a neighbor, a buddy that really doesn't have much experience in navigating these environments.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: Yeah. It's the whole wins in Vegas scenario.   Mark: Exactly. Exactly.   Nick: People always talk about the wins and I just want to jump in on this one-   Mark: Sure. Go for it.   Nick: Because one of the things that I've been trying to emphasize with clients as well, especially those that are new to maybe, having an advisor or a planning relationship is that the advice that we're giving for them is the advice that we're giving at that set place and time. And so meaning, people tend to feel more comfortable when there are like general rules of thumb or those sorts of things. And so maybe it's a question like, a basic one that happens all the time is extra payments towards the mortgage or not. And so one of the things we've been trying to really get through people's heads is that, hey, we may be telling you to not do that right now, but it's because we have goals over the next one to three years that we're trying to hit because of X, Y, Z factors. And that might be something that we target three years down the road, but right now, it's more important for you to do these other things, to put yourselves in a better position to be able to do that.   Nick: And so what having that kind of conversation with people have seen the light click on quite a bit, because giving them the situation where, Hey, let's take you and your friend, and let's say that nine out of ten factors are the same, but that one factor can dramatically change-   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: The advice. And so even though you might feel like you have a twin in so many different ways, that one factor can be a huge differentiator on the sort of advice or the sort of strategy that you should have in place from a financial perspective. And really, you hear people talk about, each situation's unique, but really being more specific in helping them realize that has been something that has been helpful for some people lately, especially with the choppy waters that we've been in the last four or five months.   Mark: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you listen to this podcast and there's three guys on here having a conversation, but the three of us need different things for the time of life that we're in and whatever's going on. You two might be similar in age for example, but one's got kids, one doesn't.   Nick: Exactly.   Mark: I'm older than exactly you guys. So there's a million variations could go into what you need individually. So again, I don't think that the neighbors or coworkers or cousin Eddie or whatever it might be mean any ill will, but it's just not the best advice. So again, getting in our own way sometimes is listening to those people who really we shouldn't be listening to. So that's going to wrap it up this week for the podcast. So the secret to retirement success is you and how willing you are to not get in your own way, to make sure that you realize the things that you know, and the things that you can do, and then turning to those people to help you in those shortcoming areas.   Mark: I don't pretend to try to rebuild my car from the ground up, because I have no idea how to do that. Sure, I can change some spark plugs and change the oil, but that's the limit of my knowledge. So I'm not going to tear the whole thing apart and start from the ground up. Same kind of idea. So that's the conversation, make sure that you reach out to John and Nick. If you've got some questions, if you're worried about sabotaging yourself, doing some things you shouldn't be, especially in these choppy waters, as Nick mentioned, it's easy to do. It's easy to let that little fear monster jump up and nibble in our ear. So reach out, have a conversation with the team at PFG Private Wealth, before you take any action, especially if you feel like you need to make a change.   Mark: I think that's a fundamental thing that we do as humans as well. Sometimes we feel like if we're not doing something, we're doing something wrong and often not doing anything could be a good move for your situation, but you need to find out through the process of getting a plan put together or just reexamining the plan that you may already have in place. So pfgprivatewealth.com is how you make it happen. That's where you can find John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth. Again, pfgprivatewealth.com. Pretty easy to remember and reach out to him if you got some questions or concerns, get on the calendar, hit the subscribe button for whatever platform you like to use. Athol, Google, Spotify, so on and so forth. For John and Nick. I'm your host Mark. We'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

There are some important terms you're going to come across as you prepare for retirement. Having a basic understanding of these will help you achieve financial success, so we'll cover what they mean and what you should know on today's episode. And don't worry. We won't go quite so far down the rabbit hole where we expect you to be able to explain how a company's P/E ratio meshes with it's Alpha and Beta ratings to determine how much stock you should buy. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John and Nick and I, as we talk about Retirement Planning Redefined here on the podcast. As always, don't forget to subscribe to us on whatever platform you like to use. Find all the information you need at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's the guys website pfgprivatewealth.com. Lot of good tools, tips, and resources to be found there. We're going to have another conversation today about some financial jargon. This is more kind of investment terms you might want to know or have heard and maybe you want to get a better understanding on, especially if you're sitting down and you're shopping for a professional or something like that. You want to kind of understand some of these things that you're talking about. Now we're not going to go super deep. We're not going to get into PE ratios and alphas and betas and all that kind of stuff, but we're going to keep it kind of high level. So we'll jump into that this week on the podcast, Nick, what's going on, buddy? How you doing?   Nick: Pretty good. Pretty good. Staying busy. We're recording this, just kind of closing up tax season. So happy that that is over for-   Mark: I bet.   Nick: Everybody that is at least not filing an extension.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: But yeah, it's obviously a lot going on in the world. So it's been keeping us pretty busy.   Mark: Yeah that's true. Very true. John, what about you buddy? You glad tax season's over?   John: Yeah. Yeah. It's a fun kind of hump to get over.   Mark: I like that little pause. It's fun. Yeah.   John: Yeah. So, no, it's good. It's kind of a mark that people have on their calendar, so that's over with, and really we start to kind of get busy afterwards.   Mark: Yeah.   John: Because a lot of people kind of delay meetings until after tax season, so excited to get back at it. And then also excited that NBA playoffs started. So Boston Celtics are playing the Nets right now.   Mark: Alright now, there you go.   John: Gearing up for that, so-   Mark: There you go. Very good. Well we probably should have done a show really on tax planning versus tax preps right after tax season because really tax planning is something you should be doing all year long with your retirement professional anyway, but we're not going to do that this week. Maybe we'll do that here in the next couple of weeks, we'll come up and do something.   Mark: But for now let's talk about some terms that people hear and probably should know. Maybe you know, maybe you have that kind of cursory high level view, whatever the case might be. Maybe you don't. So let's talk about a few of these. Let's kind of start with fiduciary guys. And this is a term that I think people should know. They should know what it is. I kind of wish, and I was thinking about this before we started that our politicians had to do what fiduciaries have to do, right? They have that legal, moral, ethical responsibility to do what's right for their client AKA us as American citizens. I wish our politicians had to be fiduciaries, but either way explain what it is and maybe a little bit of the difference between that and like suitability.   John: Yeah. So fiduciary, especially in our world's investment advisor, it's where the fiduciary is obligated to put the client's best interests ahead of their own. So really looking to do what's best for the client, regardless of any other factors. And what you mentioned there with as far as, how does that compare to suitability, where kind of like a broker has to recommend something that's suitable for the client, so there's a big difference when you start to kind of analyze that is something might be suitable for you, but it might not be the best thing for your situation.   Mark: Right.   John: Or maybe there's other things out there that are better. So fiduciary has the due diligence and say, "Hey, I'm making this recommendation. And based on my expertise, my knowledge, everything I've compared it to this is what I believe is the best for you." And also if there's any conflict of interests for the advisor as a fiduciary, they must disclose that to you upfront.   Mark: Yeah.   John: So one thing, what people really need to do when they're interviewing advisors or kind of taking that step to try to find someone to work with, it's really one of the first questions should be asking. I'd say the good thing is the industry is really going in this direction-   Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).   John: Over the last, decade or so. It's really been kind of going, fiduciary, fiduciary, so that's.   Mark: Making that the standard, making it more the standard?   John: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. So if I'm getting this right, then maybe to kind of break this down for people, and Nick feel free to chime in, but so if there's three options available, suitability would say, "Hey, any of these three technically work for my client, but this one actually pays me better or there's a reward of a trip or something like that attached to it." You're not doing the wrong thing by picking that. It's still suitable. Whereas a fiduciary has to go with the absolute best thing for the client period. Is that a fair way to break that down in layman's terms?   Nick: Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair way to kind of break it down and it can get tricky because when you really get into the nitty gritty in theory, people can argue about what's better now versus what might be better down the road and that sort of thing.   Mark: Right.   Nick: But if anything, I think what's important for people to understand is the conflicts of interests, the potential conflicts of interest and where they come from. So, if you're working with an advisor that is tied in with a parent company that has proprietary products, then they're probably not able to function as a fiduciary. So-   Mark: Gotcha.   Nick: Understanding that there's a conflict of interest, a potential conflict of interest, there is just something that people should ask about so that they understand it. It can be from experience just kind of chatting with people. It can get a little overwhelming for people to kind of really drill down understanding the difference between fiduciary and standard versus a suitability standard. But people oftentimes understand conflict of interest. And just to kind of piggyback a little bit on your short little rant earlier about politicians, many people would be shocked to know that many politicians are able to invest in companies even though there may be conflicts of interests.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: And the fact that's able to happen. And there's some websites that track those sort of things, but oftentimes they're privy to information that will impact a company in the marketplace and they're able to take advantage of it even though, the rest of the country can't do that, so-   Mark: Yeah, I was just even talking financially. In just their basic decision making when they pass laws.   Nick: For sure. For sure. But that's a good example of them not passing laws that-   Mark: True.   Nick: Aren't good for everybody.   Mark: Well and to John's point, so there's nothing wrong with asking, right? When you go in and sit down with someone, you just say, "Hey, are, are you a fiduciary?" Right? That's a fair question, and there's nothing wrong with asking that.   Nick: Agreed.   Mark: Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's move on to the other big term right now that everybody's getting hit over the head with, on a regular basis, and that's inflation. At the time we're doing this podcast guys, the CPI numbers came out a couple of weeks ago for March, pretty ugly. Gross is a term that has been thrown around quite a bit some of these numbers, 8.5% on the inflation, we're talking what 48% on gas, 35% up on used cars, food 13 to 17% up. So inflation break it down a little bit.   Nick: Yeah. So inflation has to do with spending power of money. And so one of the easiest ways for people to kind of think about it is, you mentioned food for example, one of the things that we kind of joke around with people is they were able to a couple years ago, do you remember when you could walk out of Publix and get everything you needed for 70, 80 bucks versus it now costing 100, $120 for the same amount of stuff. And the tricky thing with inflation is that it's there on a consistent basis year to year, but every 10 to 15 years, it kind of creeps up on us. And then we realize, Hey, this is kind of annoying.   Nick: And then obviously we have times we're in right now where there's some hyper inflation and kind of pocket books are getting hit. The one thing that I would say just to kind of pour some water on it is that although there are some real substantial issues that people are dealing with, there are some kind of, I guess, what we would almost call acute factors that are having an impact on it, that we would hope subside to a certain extent within the next year or two. But also there are going to be ramifications that we're already starting to see where the FED is doing things to try to combat inflation, like increasing interest rates, which we're kind of already on the docket, but has been getting pushed down. The cans been getting kicked down the road for a while.   Nick: And so things like mortgages, mortgage rates are now I think mid fives I read, whereas a year ago, closer to three. And I was just having a conversation with somebody to kind of put that in real world numbers. A half a million dollar mortgage at rates a year ago, a half a million dollar financed amount is from a monthly payment standpoint is equivalent to around 370,000 now, or if you look at it inverse half a million dollar mortgage at current rates is going to cost you around $700 a month more than it was a year ago. So that's going to have a real impact on housing prices and a lot of other things as well. So those are some real world examples of how inflation kind of impacts our life.   Mark: All right. So yeah, obviously we're hyper aware, we've talked about it before a little bit, but inflation we always kind of think of, at least I do it anyway, like calories, right? We know it exists and we don't often put a lot of thought into it until it's slapping us in the face, so to speak. And it's definitely doing that right now, so a lot people very concerned about that. So when we are talking about that, what happens is you start thinking, well maybe I should take a little more risk or whatever the case is with my portfolio to try to outpace inflation or keep up with it or whatever the case is, especially in these crazy times. So that leads us into risk tolerance guys. So what is your risk tolerance? And is that a wise move to try to take on more risk to combat something? Usually it's not.   John: No, it's not. And this is one of the most probably important things in building a portfolio that someone should really take a look at, and it's often overlooked. So risk tolerance is, to kind of bring it down to the simplest form is how much loss is an investor willing to take in their portfolio? How much volatility can they tolerate? So one of the things that we do when we are building a portfolio for our clients, the first thing actually is we have them go through a risk tolerance questionnaire to determine, are they conservative, moderate, aggressive? And from there we really help us design the portfolio so that way we can kind of match up the expected volatility of the portfolio with kind of what they could bear.   John: Because one of the worst things you could do investing is jumping around. And I hate to say it seeing a little bit right now I've already kind of feel a few phone calls I'm like, hey what should we do with the market? And if this volatility's already got you nervous and it hasn't really, it's been a pullback but it hasn't been anything too significant.   Mark: Right.   John: You really need to take a look at am I invested correctly because as we all know, as you shift to conservative or to cash, and then the next week the market just rally up and all of a sudden you just lost all. You realized your losses and didn't get to recover from it.   Mark: Yeah, knee jerk reaction is not the best right now. Right?   Nick: Yeah. And I would even jump in with that too going along with what John said where I think we have hit that point where people have forgotten what it's like to have bad markets, or even a normal market cycle of having a negative year. Even during COVID when the markets pulled back, 35, 40%, they bounced back by the end of the year. So it was never really realized. There was a short period of panic, but the recovery was quick, but.   Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Nick: There's a lot of people that don't remember that hey, there are going to be years where the market is down 10% for the year, the whole year. 12 whole months, so that's something that's interesting that's happening right now that we're seeing. Plus, historically where people would shift would be to fixed income or bonds. And that's not necessarily a safe place right now, either. So we're kind of in this, almost unicorn phase that only comes along every 50 or 60 years where there's not a lot of opportunities in many places. And so there's going to definitely have to be some patience involved-   Mark: I like that.   Nick: In the next 12 to 18 months.   Mark: Yeah. I like the unicorn phase. That's a good way of putting it. It's definitely been interesting, that's for sure. So do you guys kind of with the risk tolerance, is it kind of that number kind of system? Do you guys do that risk tolerance kind of thing where you kind of give someone almost like sleep number, if you will. If you're 100 or if you're a 20, how does that work?   John: Yeah. So how we do it and I've used actually some programs that do that. They give you a risk number based on how you answer questions. We have a set of some pretty good questions that give us an idea of what that person can kind of stomach.   Mark: Okay.   John: And what their expected return is. It's really, when you start to break it down, it's a lot of the same questions just asked differently to really kind of understand how the person ticks.   Mark: Yeah.   John: So we do a real good job of figuring that out. And then as advisors, part of our job is to make sure we put them in the appropriate portfolio based on how they answer.   Mark: Yeah. Because it's pretty easy to say conservative, and you go, what does that even mean? Right? Or I'm moderate.   John: Yeah.   Mark: Well what does that mean? That's probably a wide window, right?   John: It is.   Nick: Yeah. And then I would say one of the things that without it sounding like a commercial for ourselves, one of the things that we do that's a little bit different than some places that we do have what's called like a tactical tilt to how we manage money, where if we do have significant concerns, we will tamp down the risk. So maybe if somebody's normally in a portfolio that's a 50/50 mix stock to bond and what we would consider a moderate portfolio, if we have significant concerns in the market, we may drop them down to 30% on the stock side of things in certain cycles where we have high concerns. So sometimes what we found is that helps allay some fears for some people that there's some proactive potential changes, where if we really feel like it's going to hit the fan, we will make that change.   Mark: Right. Okay. So risk tolerance, another big one then definitely making sure that you're having that proper risk tolerance for yourself, especially in these inflationary times. When it becomes, it's hard to not feel, I think as humans, we feel like if we don't do something, we're doing something wrong or we have to take action or therefore we've made a mistake. And sometimes doing nothing can be a smart move. Especially in volatile times when it comes to a financial standpoint, if you don't know the correct answer, making no move might be a good place to start at least. That way you're not having that knee jerk reaction. And then of course, talk with a professional. Get some advice, and get a good strategy in place so that you know the right moves to make at the right time. Let's do another one here, guys, another technical one, dollar cost averaging, what is that?   Nick: So dollar cost averaging is the easiest example that most people have exposure to on a regular basis. And they don't probably realize that they're doing it is when people are contributing to their 401k. So every two weeks, a certain amount of your paycheck goes into your 401k and you have a set allocation and you are buying in to that allocation at whatever price it's at that point in time. So the thought process with dollar cost averaging is that you are balancing, you're investing over a period of time. Where sometimes you'll be buying at a premium, sometimes you'll be buying at a discount, but the objective is to continually invest and make sure that you are not trying to time the market.   John: And part of that is also what we're finding with the current market where it's at, with people with money on the sidelines, it could be a good way to kind of take some of the risk of putting all your money into the market and all of a sudden it dropping. So there's a strategy to basically say every, if I have 100,000 I want to put into the market every month or so, I'm going to be putting in 10 grand into it. That way, if it does dip down immediately, I only have $10,000 at risk. So dollar cost averaging, as Nick mentioned, most people are doing the 401k, not knowing it, but if you have money on the sideline in a volatile market, or if you're nervous, it is a good way to kind of get money that was on the sideline into the market.   Mark: Okay. All right. Well let's do one more guys and we'll wrap it up this week. Asset allocation, another big term we hear. We probably get that tossed around a little bit. Give us the kind of high level view of what that is. And because often I think people wind up feeling like they have a whole bunch of one thing and they're diversified because they've, I don't know, for example, I've got a whole bunch of mutual funds, so therefore I'm good. So explain what asset allocation is and is that correct? What I just said, is that really diversified or not?   John: Yeah. So asset allocation's kind of taken diversification to a different level. You could have seven different mutual funds, but if it's all the same type of funds, for example, like a large cap growth fund, they're going to do the same thing in reality when the market goes up or down. So when you do asset allocation, you're spreading your money, your portfolio within different asset classes, such as large cap stocks, small stocks that Nick mentioned, fixed income earlier, cash, some alternatives.   John: So what you do there is when you're building a portfolio and again, starting with your risk tolerance and your goals, you determine, hey my risk tolerance is X, here's my goals. I should be in a, let's just call it in income in growth portfolio. Well, what's the right mix of asset classes to make that work and to kind of bring it down to layman's terms here? Imagine kind of cooking, you're making recipe for a pie. The pie has certain ingredients to make it work and make it taste good. And that's basically what you're doing in your investments. It could be 20% large cap, 5% small cap, 20% fixed income, and our job as advisors and wealth management is we build that portfolio for the client if they hire us to do so.   Mark: Gotcha. Okay. All right. That's a good way of breaking that down. You just think about like a pie. So, and who doesn't love pie? So there you go. All right guys, thanks so much for the conversation this week. Good stuff talking about these technical terms, some jargon here. Hopefully we kept that pretty high level and it helped out with some of the things that you might be thinking or hearing. And if you've got questions, definitely reach out to the guys.   Mark: As always, before you take any action sit down. If you're already working with them, maybe share this podcast with someone who might benefit from it. If not, if you've been listening for a while, just reach out to them, have a conversation, and chat with them for yourself. You can find all of it at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's their website pfgprivatewealth.com. They're financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth, which makes a lot of sense. So make sure you subscribe on Apple, Google, Spotify, all that good kind of stuff. That way you can catch past episodes as well as future episodes. For John and Nick I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

Earlier this week, my colleague Adam Mastroianni published an essay on what he called "cultural oligopoly." An increasingly smaller number of artists create an increasingly larger percentage of what we watch, read, and listen to. Mastroianni presents data showing that through the year 2000 only about twenty-five percent of a single year's highest grossing movies were spinoffs, franchises, or sequels. Now it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 75%. He has similar data for hit TV shows, books, and music. Why is this happening?My guest today is Nick Seaver, who is a cultural anthropologist at Tufts University. And for the last decade or so, Nick has studied the social processes underlying the creation of music recommender systems, which form the algorithmic basis for companies like Spotify and Pandora. I've admired Nick's work for a long time. And as an anthropologist, he is interested not necessarily in the nitty gritty details of how these algorithms are constructed, but rather in who is constructing them and what these people believe they are doing when they make decisions about how the algorithms ought to work.The core of Nick's work centers around taste, and how these companies and their algorithms subtly shape not only what we consume, but what we like. When Nick started this line of work in the early 2010s, it really wasn't clear how big of an impact these recommender systems would have on our society. Now, his expertise gives an evermore incisive look at the central themes of many large societal conversations around the content we consume and our everyday digital existence. But I came into this conversation with Mastroianni's question at the top of my mind, and I think Nick's research can give a crucial insight, at least into one piece of the puzzle.One of Nick's papers relates an ethnographic study of music recommender system engineers. In the interest of protecting the identity of his informants, he gives the company a fictional name, but it bears conspicuous resemblance to Spotify. As a naive observer, one might think that the way these engineers think about their audience is in terms of demography: this kind of person likes this kind of music. If they can figure out the kind of person you are, they can recommend music that you'll probably like. But that turns out not to be the dimension of largest variance.Instead, Nick introduces the concept of “avidity.” Essentially, how much effort is a listener willing to put in to find new music? This turns out to be the first distinction that these engineers make between listeners. And it forms a pyramid. On the bottom you have what one of his informants called the “musically indifferent.” This makes up the majority of listeners. Their ideal listening experience is “lean-back.” They want to press play, then leave the whole thing alone. It is a passive listening experience — no skipping songs, no wondering what other tracks might be on the album. From there, it goes from “casual” and “engaged” listeners to the top of the pyramid, which is “musical savant.” These are “lean-in” listeners who are taking an active role in discovering new and different kinds of music.“The challenge,” Nick writes, “is that all of these listeners wanted different things out of a recommender system.” Quoting one of his informants, codename Peter, he says: “in any of these four sectors, it's a different ball game in how you want to engage them.” As Nick summarizes it: “what worked for one group might fail for another.”Nick continues here: "as Peter explained to me, lean-back listeners represented the bulk of the potential market for music recommendation in spite of their relatively low status in the pyramid. There were more of them. They were more in need of the kind of assistance recommenders could offer and successfully capturing them could make 'the big bucks' for a company."Nick relates the slightly more forthcoming perspective of another engineer, codename Oliver: "it's hard to recommend shitty music to people who want shitty music," he said, expressing the burden of a music recommendation developer caught between two competing evaluative schemes: his own idea about what makes good music and what he recognizes as the proper criteria for evaluating a recommender system.In the course of our conversation, Nick and I cover not only his studies of music recommender systems, but also his more recent studies taking an anthropological approach to attention. We tend to think of attention as this highly individualized process. For example, of gazing into the screen of your phone or turning your head to identify the source of an unexpected noise. But attention is also a social and cultural process. We attend collectively to certain stories, certain memes, certain ideas. What exactly the connection is between these two forms of attention is not obvious. And Nick's current line of work is an attempt to draw it out.But the larger theme here is that music recommender systems are one battle in the larger war for our collective attention. What Spotify, Netflix, and Twitter all have in common is that their success is proportional to the extent to which they can dominate our attention. This is known in Silicon Valley as the idea of "persuasive technology." And one way to begin to understand the origins of cultural oligopolies starts with Nick's observation about avidity. The vast majority of listeners or viewers tend to go with the default option with which they're presented. Another way of putting it is that their preferred mode is habitual autopilot.While recommender systems make up just one part of this content ecosystem. This principle remains stable across its many different layers. The more we go with our habitual default options, the more control these platforms have over us. The more we rely on these companies to define our tastes for us, the more homogenous our tastes will become.Nick's forthcoming book is “Computing Taste.” It comes out in December 2022. Keep an eye out for it. And if you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe to my Substack newsletter at againsthabit.com or leave a five star review on iTunes.Thank you for listening. Here is Nick Seaver.Cody: One of your current areas of interest is attention. And while I think this is a topic that is a pillar of how we understand our own modern lives and definitely has a long history of study in fields like psychology, it's not really something that anthropologists have covered as much in a direct way. So I'm curious to get your current perspective on why people talk about attention so much, what this word might really mean, and what an anthropological take on it might show us.[00:07:46] Nick: Yeah. My interest in attention stemmed from the earlier work that I did, sort of my PhD dissertation project and first book, which was about the developers of music recommender systems. And one of the things you realize if you, you know, study recommender systems at all, is that people are really interested in attention.They're interested in ways that you measure — how you measure if someone is listening to some music, what they like on the basis of their listening habits, your interest in trying to encourage them to listen more, to do all this stuff with their attention. And that was going to lurking in the background for me for a long time.So when I had a chance to design a new seminar to teach at Tufts for our anthropology undergraduates I thought, you know, okay, I want to learn more about attention and try to find stuff about it. So I proposed a course, which I called "how to pay attention," uh, which was a little bit of a click baity title. We don't really do attention hacks or anything. And it was a chance for me to read really broadly across media studies about across history, across psychology, cognitive science, uh, and some anthropology art history and so on to think about like, what is this thing? Like, what's this, this concept that seems so important for the way that people describe anything in the world now.And as an anthropologist, I was, uh, struck by that because, you know, when you find a concept that does so much work for people, it's — I would argue it's hard to find one that is doing more work in the present moment than attention — you know you've got something culturally rich. But a lot of the ways we talk about attention in public, the kind of popular discourse around attention is very narrow. It's very individualizing. It's very sort of a thing that happens in individual brains.So the line I like to give, uh, is that, you know, the question is: what would it look like to take an anthropological approach to attention? Well, it would look like putting attention in a social context and in a cultural context.And my thumbnail definitions of those are, you know, society is this sort of world of relationships and roles in which people live. It's where you have bosses and spouses and professors and students and pets and doctors and sheriffs and all these other kinds of roles that people occupy. And we clearly pay attention within those social structures, right? We pay attention to the same things as each other. If I'm sitting in a classroom with students, they're paying attention to me and each other in certain ways that are governed by our social roles and relationships. And we also pay attention in a cultural context, which means we pay attention in a world where we value certain things, sort of arbitrarily where we make associations between certain kinds of entities and other entities.So we might say, oh, let's, you know, focus our attention over here. And we talk about our attention as though it's a kind of lens or an optical instrument, or we'll talk about attention as being like a filter, right? We have information overload because there's not enough filtering happening between information and the world in our heads.So these are all cultural phenomenon. There's nothing intrinsically attention-like about them. And to my mind studying how people make sense of attention in the present moment in these cultural contexts, uh, is just a fascinating question. So that's the sort of how I got into it and where I think an anthropological approach is different from the sort of stereotypical psychological approach.Not that all psychologists are like this, um, but you know, the stereotypical psychology approach would be, let's do experiments with reaction times and individual people, you know, in a lab setting. And that's not really what I'm interested in. I'm really interested in the fact that people talk about attention all the time and they use it to explain all sorts of things and they think that it's really important.[00:11:12] Cody: There's definitely a trope in psychology that whatever you are studying. Whether it's memory or visual search or whatever it is, you can kind of at always some point just boil it down to, you know, some explanation: Oh, well this is what the person is attending to. This is, this is what their attention is focused on. But it's not actually — it's often kind of just a hand-waving way of, of saying, oh, well, yeah, it's what they're concentrating on without having, having any specific idea of what that really means. So I'm kind of curious what, what does putting the idea of attention in a social and cultural context — what do you think we've misunderstood about attention by individualizing and overlooking those social and cultural contexts?[00:12:01] Nick: I would say one thing is to note that there are lots of folks working in the sort of intersection of philosophy and cognitive science who are very interested in that kind of circularity of, uh, of explanation that you just described. Right. That are like: wait a minute, what does attention mean then? One of the ones that I am familiar with her work — Carolyn Dicey Jennings is one such philosopher who works in close collaboration with cognitive scientists and is sort of interested in offering a philosophically rigorous account of attention that isn't just like the thing that you point to when you've given up on giving explanations.But one reason I love reading and cognitive science around this is that you've started to realize that it seems really obvious what attention is. And of course, the famous line that everyone has to quote in all of their articles and books seems to be from William James, the godfather of American psychology who says everyone knows what attention is.And then gives you the sort of basic definition of, you know, it's when you, uh, focus on something and sort of don't focus on other things. But of course, when you push on attention, it's not really clear what it is. And it's sort of a grab bag concept that pulls together all sorts of stuff, right? It includes your ability to focus for a long time or so your sort of endurance. It includes vigilance, right? It includes the sheer sort of, uh, arousal state. Like if you're really sleepy, you're maybe not as attentive. It also includes that basic filtering capacity, the ability to, you know, in a crowded room, to listen to the person who's talking to me, instead of hearing all of the other stuff that's happening. There's all these things that you may not necessarily want to, or need to combine into a single concept.But there's not really internal coherence there. But while that's sort of a problem for psychologists, they right. They say we want to be studying one thing. We don't want to be accidentally mixing a bunch of different references. It's really normal in a cultural context, right? For any given symbol, say attention as a symbol here, to mean lots of different things and to be specifically a way to sort of draw together a bunch of different discourses in one place.So to my mind, that got me thinking, well, you know, attention just is a cultural phenomenon, just like as a defined thing. Like the fact that we think of, uh, you know, a first grader's ability to sit in their chair in the classroom for a long time, we think of that as being the same thing as my ability to, you know, listen to you and not just have my mind wander off to some other thing, while we're talking — those don't have to be the same as each other. And yet we think of them as being totally connected to each other.Another example I like to give often to talk about the sort of various layers at which attention works — in the way that, you know, in sort of common usage — has to do with Donald Trump, which is not the most fun example but there was a lot of attentional discourse around Trump, which ranged from when he was elected this sense of like, oh, you know, the press was not paying attention to the right people. This was a surprise to some people because there was not collective attention to the right parts of society. There was not an awareness that was happening.So there's an attention that's not an individual's attention, right? That's like everybody's attention. But what is that? That's not the same thing as what happens in the brain.All of those things tangled together through this weirdo concept that nobody seems to really question. We really take it for granted as like an obvious, important thing.[00:15:10] Cody: You mentioned in one of your papers, this metaphor that I'm really interested in. And it's that the way we usually talk about attention is in terms of "paying" attention, which is based in an economic metaphor. and certainly I hear a lot of people talking about like, "okay, well your most valuable asset is your time. No, no, no. Actually wait, that's just the convention. Really, your most valuable asset is your attention, which is kind of this cycle, psychological function of time." But anyway, that's kind of how we normally talk about attention, but you propose this idea that actually the sort of verb there should be "doing" attention as in some sort of action forward notion of what it means to attend.So can you say a little bit more about what that means?[00:16:00] Nick: Clearly the economic metaphor is in many ways the dominant attentional metaphor at the moment. Of course, there's a sense of paying attention. And there's also this idea that we live in an attention economy, right. And the classic explanation for what that means is from Herbert Simon, who is a sort of cognitive scientist, political scientist, economist, et cetera, working in the sort of late post-war period in the United States where he says, you know, you might say we live in an information economy. But that's not really true because we have tons of information. Information is not scarce, but information consumes attention. And therefore attention is the scarce resource. And if economics is the study of how to allocate scarce resources, that means that attention is the thing that is being economized.That's not an argument we have to agree with necessarily, but that's the sort of groundwork for thinking about how attention itself might be an economic kind of thing and how it's become really, really natural I think for lots of people across all sorts of political orientations and disciplinary affiliations to think of their attention as being really like naturally economic, right? We might question all sorts of applications of economic logics to other domains, but attention is a hard nut to crack. It really feels like, you know, sure, we don't like this way that people like try to economize every last part of our lives, but attention isn't that just, you know, you have a limited amount of it. You have a limited amount of time. What else can you, can you have? And so I think one of the things you're pointing to in your, in your question, is this history in the social sciences have a real skepticism around the role of money in society.So the classic spot for this is Georg Simmel, the sociologist writing around the turn of the 20th century, who gives what my PhD advisor used to call the money as acid hypothesis, which was this argument that when you introduce sort of money and, and, you know, uh, assigning prices to things into domains where it didn't exist before, it tends to reduce everything to the monetary as like a lowest common denominator. Right?You start to think of everything in terms of how much it's worth. And that feels not great in a lot of domains. It allows some people to do some things very strategically. Um, but generally we, we take that as a sort of sad, sad thing that money has to sort of dissolve some of the richness of social interaction.Um, and it becomes sort of the, you know, the basis for everything. It's the source of the phrase, you know, time is money, right? This idea of time is money. That's why it's important. But when you're pointing at is now we've got a kind of shift in the way that that discourse happens, right? It's not really the case that time is money. It's more, that money lets you buy time. And some people are suggesting that the basic thing, the sort of most fundamental value thing is your time or maybe your attention.And that is so interesting to me because now we've got the attention as acid hypothesis, which is that attention and this sort of an accountant, any kind of social life in terms of how much attention we're paying to what, um, it becomes the, the framework in which basically anything, uh, can be, can be expressed — in an almost, it feels more fundamental than money to some people, right? It feels more essential. If money is an arbitrary and position, attention is just the real thing.And as anthropologist, my interest is not so much in deciding whether that's true or not. But in cataloging and noting the way that that works, the way that people talk about it, because it's something that's pretty emergent at the moment. But it's not quite obvious to folks like what, what it's going to mean. Like what's going to happen, as people take this more and more seriously.[00:19:32] Cody: So, as you alluded to at the beginning, attention is kind of this big, big topic that we all understand is this governing force in our lives. We're not really sure what it is in either a colloquial sense or a professional academic sense. But it's definitely, whatever it is, it's critical to whatever we're doing over here in psychology.And you began to understand that through your research in music recommender systems. And that has been your main area of study for the past 10 years or so the kind of recommender systems and algorithms used by platforms like Spotify and Pandora and all that sort of stuff. So you've done a series of in-depth ethnographic studies, which will come together in your book, Computing Taste, which I'm really looking forward to reading when it's out this December. Um, but I want to get into some of that material now.[00:20:28] Nick: Sure.[00:20:29] Cody: So one of my favorite papers of yours is called "Seeing Like an Infrastructure: avidity and difference in algorithmic recommendation." So can you tell me a little bit about this concept of avidity and how it plays out in the way engineers think about musical recommenders systems.[00:20:48] Nick: So that piece, seeing like an infrastructure, came about — it's going to be partly in this book, but the basic gist of it was this: I wanted to know how the people building recommender systems for music in particular thought about their users. This is sort of basic stuff. But it's very important, right?The way you build your technology, uh, is going to be shaped by the people that you think use it. Um, a side question that sort of rose to great public prominence during the time that I was working on this project, you know, over the past, like you said, 10 or 12 years was the question of diversity within these fields.So it is, you know, a well-known problem, certainly by now, um, that there is a lot of demographic homogeneity in tech companies and among the people who build these software systems. And many people suggest that the shortcomings are some of the shortcomings of these systems, um, or, you know, biased outputs, some of the racist outcomes we get from some machine learning systems, maybe directly traceable to that lack of diversity on the teams of the people who, who build them.Uh, so aside question here for me was how did the people building these systems understand diversity, uh, because there's more than one way to think about what diversity means and what kind of effect it might have on the technologies that you build. So one of the things I realized was that when people talked about music listeners, as you know, developers of recommender systems, they were very well aware that the people who used a recommender system were not really like the people who built the recommender system.And that's a kind of realization that doesn't always happen. It's been the subject of critique in lots of domains. Some people call the absence of that the iMethodology, which is what we use to say, you know, someone builds a system because it meets their own needs and they assume that they are, uh, like their users.So you get this class of startup ideas, you know, like, um, laundry delivery, uh, which is because, you know, you've got a bunch of dudes who have just graduated from college and they don't want to do their own laundry, and they're trying to solve their own problems, right. This kind of sector and, uh, style of development.But the people working on music recommendation seems pretty aware, uh, that they, they're not like the people who are using this. So the question then is in how — and well, the main thing that people would talk about when they talked about how they were different from their users and in how their users might be different from each other was what I ended up calling avidity, which is sort of my term, um, for a collection of ideas that you could sum up basically as how into music are people, right?How, how avidly do they seek out new music? How much do they care about music? How much should they want to listen to music? You know, how much work do they want to put into, uh, finding things to listen to and a recommender system, as you might guess, uh, is generally, uh, geared, especially these days toward less avid listeners, right? They're intended for people who don't really want to put that much effort into deciding what to listen to. If you knew what you wanted to listen to, you would not need an algorithmic recommendation.But on the other hand, the people who worked in these companies, they generally were very, very enthusiastic about music. And so when they were building recommender systems, they understood themselves as having to build those for someone that was not like them, which poses this question: how do you know what your users are like then? If they're not like you, what are you going to do?And so in short, the argument and the pieces that they come to understand their users primarily through the infrastructures that they build. So they learn things about their users, through the data collection apparatus or through the infrastructure that they create. An infrastructure is designed to capture things like how much you listen, at where you click, you know, the frequency of your listening to certain artists and so on. And in that data collection, what's most obvious? Avidity.How much you listen, how much clicking you do, because here's a database that's, you know, full of click events, listening events and so on. And so I argue in that piece that avidity is both a kind of cultural theory about how people are different from each other, but also something that's very closely tied to the specific infrastructure that they work on.So they want to try to be rational. They want to try to be objective. They don't want to try to build from their own personal experience. They're aware of that shortcoming. But the solution for that is in this sort of circular solution of using the actual data collection infrastructure that they've been building on. So they kind of reinforce this vision of avidity at the center, in the place of, you know, other kinds of variety that some of their critics might care about such as, uh, demographic homogeneity and so on.[00:25:22] Cody: Yeah, so that to me is such a fascinating insight. It's like, okay, if you're someone who doesn't have any preconceptions about what this might be like, you might come in and think, okay, well, if I were going to segment people up to recommend music to them, I would look for demographic qualities. I might look for things that I think would correspond to interest in certain genres, all of that, all of that sort of thing. But, based off of what you're saying, this dominant way of understanding people is through the amount of effort they're willing to put in to find something that they do not already know about.And you give an account from one of your informants who says they kind of have this pyramid : at the bottom is the musically indifferent than you have casual and engaged listeners and then musical savant at the top. And then in each of these four sectors, you have a totally different way of how you're trying to engage them and what it might mean to have a successful recommendation for them. And that to me just seems, uh, like a very interesting way of conceptualizing what it means to, to be engaged with music and to understand the different kinds of, of ways in which people are listening to a combination of what they like and what they might potentially like.[00:26:43] Nick: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, uh, maybe one thing that will help put us in some context is to think a bit about the history of algorithmic recommendation. Because you might think, yeah, like you said, that, uh, the first place you would go to sort of segment listeners to music would be demography because that's of course in the dominant mode of, of segmenting audiences for music, uh, ever since, you know, the origin of the recorded music industry. It's been a very, very dominant frame in the production of certain genres, you know, radio stations, stores, labels, charts, all the rest of it.There's a bunch of rich history of essentially race, uh, in the categorizing of, of music. And I'm talking here specifically at the United States, but you have similar dynamics globally. Um, but a very central sort of point of concern within the overall recommender systems world — and this includes things beyond music — is that using demographic categories for personalization is bad, right? That it's biased at best, that it's racist at worst. And that what recommender systems do — and this is an argument people are making in this field from its very origins in the mid 1990s — is provide a way for people to sort of escape from the bounds of demographic profiling. So it's very important to people in this field that they don't use demography, uh, the sort of recommender systems as the anti demographic thing are — it's a trope that's through, you know, it exists all the way through this, through this field from, from back then until, until the present.Um, what's striking about it, of course, is that, uh, in a world where people have race and they have gender and they have class. Those features do emerge in sort of proxy form in the data, right? So you, it is not always hard to guess someone's demographic qualities, uh, from what they listen to. You know, it's not deterministic relationship, but there's certainly a correlation there.So it is possible for demographics to re-emerge in this data, right. For them to think, oh, you know, they, these look like sort of feminine listening habits and so on. Um, there's a lot of work in, in, in how those categories emerge and how they can shift around over time. Um, but it's very important that people are working in this field that they don't take demography into account.In part because they're worried about doing what they describe as racial profiling. But even if that would be a sensible way to start, right — to think, well, there is certainly a racial pattern in production of music and, and listening patterns. They really hold that off limits intentionally.[00:29:11] Cody: One of the things that I've heard you talk about before in other podcasts interviews is that your job as an anthropologist is not simply to infiltrate these companies and collect secret facts about how the algorithms work. Your job is something closer to trying to describe the cultural processes, underlying their creation and figure out how the people who build these recommender systems understand what it is they're doing.So as you say, the more detailed you get on describing the algorithm itself, the more transient data information is. for example, how Facebook is, is weighting one aspect of the newsfeed on any given day — that could change tomorrow, but the underlying cultural and social constructs are more stable and in a way more fundamental to what it means for our society in our, in a larger sense.So I kind of want to bring in another paper that you've written in this sort of line, which is "Captivating Algorithms: recommender systems as traps" in which you compare the way Silicon valley engineers talk about their products and anthropological studies of literal animal traps. And so most tellingly, you have this quote, which I love, it's from a paper from near 1900 by an anthropologist named Otis Mason, I believe, which reads: the trap itself is an invention in which are embodied most careful studies in animal mentation and habits. The hunter must know for each species it's food it's likes and dislikes its weaknesses and foibles. A trap in this connection is an ambuscade, a temptation, irresistible, allurement. It is a strategy."So he's describing how the people he's studied think" about trapping animals. And in a sense, uh, you know, you're saying that you're leveraging the animal's own psychology against itself.Your point in this paper is that this is essentially the same language, or at least a very similar language, to what many people use in describing the quote "persuasive technologies" being built today. So can you expand on that idea a little bit and say what the anthropologist's perspective on studying these kinds of technologies looks like?[00:31:29] Nick: I love that line from, from Mason. I think it's very rich, uh, in helping us think about what we might be doing with technology from an anthropological point of view. Like I've been talking about one of the central concerns I have is how the people building these systems think about the, the, their users, uh, and one of the common things that they do then when they talk about what they're, what they're up to, is they talk about trying to capture them, right.They try to talk about capturing their attention, to bring attention back in. They talk about capturing market share. There's all of these captivation metaphors. And of course they don't literally mean that they're trying to, you know, cat trap you in a box or drop you in a hole through a layer of leaves or something like that.But one of the things that anthropologists get to do, which is fun and I think useful, uh, is draw broader comparisons in the people that we are talking to and talking about than they draw, to sort of put things in comparison, across cultural contexts. And so comparing these, you know, machine learning systems that are imagined to be high tech, the reason for the high valuation of all of these big tech companies, uh, thinking about them, not as being some brand new thing, that's never been seen before and requires a whole new theory of technology to understand, but thinking of them as being part of a continuum of technologies, that includes digging a hole in the ground and putting some sharp sticks in it. That I find really, uh, enticing, because it's going to help us think about these systems as just technologies, right? They're ordinary in a lot of ways, despite some of their weird qualities. So the basic argument of the traps paper is that we have this anthropology of trapping that suggests, okay, well, what is a trap? It's a weird kind of technology that really foregrounds, uh, the psychological, uh, involvement of the entities that's trying to trap, right? A mouse trap doesn't work. If the mouse doesn't do what it's supposed to do, uh, in the same way that your, you know, iPhone won't work, if you don't use the iPhone in the way you're supposed to. And this is in some ways a now classic argument within science and technology studies that you really have to configure a user for a technology in order for technology to work. There's no such thing as a technology that just works in isolation from a context of use. And so reminding ourselves of that fact, uh, is really handy in this domain because there's a lot of work on algorithms and AI that falls prey to this idea that, you know, oh, they're brand new, we never used to, we didn't want to go to technologies as being, you know, really determining of our situations and of advancing according to their own, their own logics before, but now it's true. Now algorithms are truly autonomous. And that's not really true, right. There are people who work on them who build them, who changed them over time. And they're doing that with a model of prey in mind.So I'm drawing on a little bit of an expansion of that anthropology of trapping tradition by an anthropologist named Alfred Gell, who has a very famous article in anthropology, where he talks about artwork as being a kind of trap. Also a similar, you know, the idea of like a good, a good work of art is going to produce a psychological effect on its viewers.But it's going to do that using technical means, right? So, and, uh, really intricately carved statue could cause someone to sort of stand still and look at it. And we don't want to forget that that statue, in addition to being quote unquote, art, uh, is also technology, right? It's also an artifact that's been created by people using tools.And it is in some sense, a tool in its own right for producing an effect in a viewer. And so I like to use this anthropology of trapping literature to think a little bit more expansively about questions that have really been coming up lately around ethics and persuasion in digital media. So we have documentaries, organizations, and so on, like I'm thinking "The Social Dilemma" from the center for humane technology is the sort of most prominent one, that suggests that, you know, Facebook is like a slot machine. It is trying to get you addicted to it and is trying to produce bad effects in your mind. YouTube is doing this as well.They're incentivizing people to make outrageous content because they're trying to maximize the amount of time that people spend on their sites. Now, these are all stories about digital technology that really fairly explicitly figure them as trap-like in the sense that I've been describing . Facebook is designed to make you do things against your will, uh, which are also against your best interest. So they have the trick you using them. And so we see that kind of trap metaphor out in the wild there, um, in critiques that people will make of these systems. So it was really striking to me to see that in both critiques, but also just in the self descriptions of people working in this space.It was not weird for people working in music in particular to say: yeah, of course, I want to get people addicted to listening to music. And it maybe didn't even seem that bad. But is it really bad if you listen to more music than you used to listen to, is that worthy of being called an addiction? Is that really a problem?But thinking about trapping in this sort of broad anthropological way, I hope, um, steps us back from this binary question. You know, are these things harmful? Are they coercive or not? And into a gray or a space where we say, you know, sort of all technologies have a bit of persuasion and coercion mixed into them.They all sort of demand certain things of their users, but they can't really demand them entirely. And so if we step back, we can start to think of, um, technologies as existing, within a broader field of psychological effects of people trying to get other people to do what they want them to do. And it sort of field of persuasion, um, where we don't have to say, okay, well, you know what the problem is, recommender systems is they really, you know, deny you agency, which they can't. They can't ultimately deny you agency entirely. But they do depend on you playing a certain role in relation to them.[00:37:22] Cody: Cody here. Thanks for listening to the show. I'd love to get your thoughts on this episode. One of the challenges, as you might imagine, as a writer and podcast producer, is that it's hard to get direct feedback from your readers and listeners, what they like or don't like what's working well or needs to be rethought.You can tell a little bit about this from metrics like views or downloads, but it isn't very nuanced. So I've created an avenue for getting that kind of feedback: a listener survey available with every podcast episode. If you have feedback on what you found most interesting or what you thought could be improved, I'd love to hear it.You can find the link in the show notes or at survey.Againsthabit.com. That's survey.againsthabit.com. Now back to the show.What do you think the role of habits are in everything that we're talking about here? Because it seems largely that the psychology that engineers are relying on when they're building their products, when they're thinking about persuasive technologies, when they're trying to trap a user, it's largely the psychology of habits and habit formation.So I don't know. What do you, what do you make of that? And, you know, what's what does that sort of suggest to you about how we should think about these technologies and the way they're exploiting our habitual psychology?[00:38:47] Nick: That's a very nice connection. There is a historian of science named Henry Cowell who is working on some of this history of the psychology of habit in relation to attention , which might be interesting. But from my point of view, in sort of anthropology side of things, when I think of habit, I think of what we often talk about in the social sciences as a, as habitus, which sounds a fancy way of saying the sort of collection of habits that you acquire as part of becoming an inculturated person.So as you grow up, you learn a bunch of habitual things. It's not the sort of small-scale habits of like, you know, self-help books where they say, oh, if you remember to, uh, you know, put your toothbrush out in a certain spot in the morning, it'll trigger you to brush your teeth on time, but rather it's something broader than that, right? Which is that we have a bunch of tendencies in the ways that we behave in the ways that we respond to the outside world and the way we use our bodies that are those, those are all solidified in us over time. And so if you ever have the experience of culture shock of going to a place where people don't have quite the same habits as you do, it becomes very obvious that what seems totally natural and comfortable and regular to you, it doesn't seem that way to, to other people.And so technologies are part of that broader field of habits or habitus in that a lot of the kind of habits that we have are sort of organized around technological implements, right? So very explicitly people working in this field, um, folks like Nir Eyal who's book, Hooked, is plainly about this, about how companies can learn to sort of incite habits and their users, they suggest that, you know, what, what you want to do, if you want your company to become really successful is you want to make users use it habitually. Something like, you know, users will open up Facebook, um, before they've even consciously thought about what they're doing. And I'm sure plenty of people have had the same experience of, you know, being on Twitter or on Facebook, closing the window on their browser, opening a new window on their browser and going immediately back to that website before realizing, wait, what am I doing?That kind of unthinking habitual behavior is where that intersection of persuasion and coercion sort of happens. Right. If someone's making me do that, um, that's probably not quite what I want. It takes place within the sort of broader field of overall habits. And arguably, and this is something that people in the social sciences have argued for a while now, your taste is also part of this, right? So you learn to like certain things. It's very easy for people to learn, to, you know, uh, to dislike a style of music, for instance, such that when it comes on the radio, you'll turn the radio off immediately and be like, that's horrible. You know, I can't imagine that anyone else would like this, but of course other people do like it. Which just gives lie to the idea that there's something objective going on under there.But technology and recommender systems in particular and the way that I try to think about them in my book and through my, uh, articles, uh, I want to try to think about recommender systems as really occupying that in-between space between technology and taste, or as you know, the title of my book, computing and taste. Cause we often talk about those domains as though they're really separate from each other, right? Computers are rational, they're quantitative, they're logical. Whereas taste is subjective. It's individual, it's expressive, it's inexpressible through numbers. Those two ideas, you know, we think of them as being really opposed. There's no accounting for taste and so on.And yet they come together in recommender systems, uh, in a way that some people fault because they think that you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't cross the streams from these two, these two different domains. Um, but which I think of as not being that weird, if we think of taste as being a sort of set of habits as being part of this kind of, you know, apparatus through which we live our lives, and we think of technology as also being part of this broader scene of habits and habituation, right? Technologies are not, uh, separate from, from the human world. Computers did not invent themselves and they do not program themselves. So actually all of this is getting played with together, uh, in a way that's not that weird if you think about it. Now, it may be done in ways that we don't like, and it may have effects that we don't want. But it's important. It was important for me to try to give an anthropological account of recommenders systems that didn't start from the premise that, oh, this is impossible. Like you can't do this. Everybody knows that human expression and feeling cannot be worked on through the computer. Because it's pretty clear that it can be worked on through the computer. What's not clear is what that means for how we understand computers and for how we understand taste.[00:43:24] Cody: Okay. Here is an easy question then. What is your theory of taste?[00:43:32] Nick: Ooh. Okay. This is a fun question. So my theory of taste, I have to start with the, with the, the sort of default social science theory of taste. The default social science theory of taste is what we would call the homology thesis, which is that there is a homology or a sort of structural similarity between class and taste. So fancy people like fancy things and less fancy people like less fancy things. If you like the opera, or if you like country music that tells me something about who you are. That's the sort of canonical, a social scientific argument.And in that case taste is really not the thing that most people think it is where it's like, oh, this is just my personal preferences. It's actually something that sort of determined by your social status. Now that's a fairly vulgar account of that theory, but I think it's fairly widely shared among lots of people that taste is effectively arbitrary. And at the end of the day, it really just reflects your sort of social position, maybe also, you know, your race. But certainly essentially like how fancy you are in a sort of class based system.My thinking on taste is largely informed by a tradition in sociology that is usually called the pragmatics of taste, which suggests that sure, maybe that happens, that homology thing. But the problem with that homology thesis is that it doesn't tell you how or why fancy people come to like fancy things or why people in any social group come to acquire the tastes that are associated with that group. And so what these folks do, um, usually through fairly rich ethnographic observation, which is maybe why I like them, um, is they try to describe all of the conditions by which people come to acquire taste. And so they have these studies of, you know, uh, opera fans. There's a book by Claudio Benzecry about how opera fans learn to become opera fans, um, or how, you know, people who listen to, uh, vinyl records set up their little listening stations in their home. There's a lot of stuff that people do to try to, uh, instrument their taste, to, to orchestrate encounters with music in particular.And so I'm really invested in that idea of taste as something that you do rather than something that you just sort of have. Uh, and as something that's very much entangled with technology, a favorite example of mine is, you know, we have a sense of what it means to have taste right now, right? What music do you pick on Spotify or something like that. But if we go back, you know, 50 years, uh, what it meant to have tasted in music might have to do with what radio stations you listen to, uh, what records you bought at the record store records. You know, they're all the same shape. They're all the same color. Basically the more or less cost the same so when you're picking among them all you're doing is expressing yourself, right? You're just making a cultural claim. But what it meant to have tasted that moment was really entangled with technologies, the radio, the LP. Go back a hundred years before that you don't have recorded music. So can anyone have a taste in music then? Certainly not in the way we can now. At the very least taste would mean something different. And so I'm really interested in the idea that what tastes even is is totally entangled with these techniques by which we come to acquire and encounter, uh, cultural objects.So that is a very long-winded way of saying that I think of taste as being this kind of emergent thing that people do in particular settings with particular tools. And one of the tools that they use nowadays is recommender systems.[00:46:47] Cody: One of the things I'm interested in along this line is whether or not our tastes are becoming more monolithic. So my colleague, Adam Mastroianni has a recent essay on this. He puts together these data showing that through the year 2000, about 25% of a year's highest grossing movies were spinoffs, franchises, or sequels. But now, uh, closer to 2020, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 75%. And he has similar data for TV shows, books, and music as well.So what role do you think recommender systems might be playing in this and in particular, are platforms like Spotify, Netflix, and the like funneling us into these kind of genre enclaves, where they find it legitimately difficult to point us towards something that is at the same time, both new and something that we'll like. What do you make of that, and is that a function of recommender systems as you've come to understand them?[00:47:51] Nick: Well, it's a great question because you're pointing out that the basic tension at the heart of recommender systems . Which is that they're about helping people find a music that they don't know about yet. So there's an assumption that you're, that you like more than, you know. but they're based on this idea that you won't like everything, right?So it has something to do with what you are already know. There's this tension between the constraints, profiling someone and saying, okay, what do you like? And that idea that what you might do with that profiling is broaden people's horizons. And that's a real tension. It's something that I think a lot of critics don't appreciate, that there is a commitment to broadening horizons in this field. Whether or not they achieve them is another question.But that's something that people in the field are really concerned with and trying to figure out: wait a minute, we're sort of pigeonholing people, but we don't want to pigeon hole them. We want to help them. And forever, we've always been saying that recommender systems are about, you know, like, like we were talking about earlier about, you know, cracking you out of a given categories to help you find new things. Or they used to say, you know, 20 years ago that recommender systems would help you go down the "long tail." They would help you find more obscure things that you would never find otherwise, because there were too many things, you just wouldn't have a way to know about these less popular objects.Of course, now we have a lot of concern — this is not a new concern — but the continuing concern about monoculture, about a kind of similarity. And algorithms have emerged as one of the kinds of entities we might blame for why that is, of course, because you know, oh, you like that, you want more like that. There's this kind of valorization of the similar in recommender systems that maybe seems like a cause for this problem more globally.I think it's certainly part of an overall apparatus of cultural production, which is very risk averse now. So one of the things you see in this context of, you know, every movie occurring within the Marvel cinematic universe or whatever. I think you can't really say a recommender system did that. Because certainly a recommender system didn't get to decide what was happening there. But you do have, you know, industries that are organized around trying to maximize their, their successes, and clearly are finding, you know, success, uh, in doing what they're doing and doing what, uh, Mastroianni calls that oligopoly of production.So I think one thing that points us to is the importance of looking at the overall system, you know, recommender systems are a more and more prominent part of cultural circulation now, but they're not everything. And so we don't want to say, oh, it was the algorithm. So it points us to that. But it also points us to this other really interesting, like philosophical question, is you mentioned this idea of genre enclaves, which is a lovely way to put what other people would describe as like filter bubbles. And one funny thing about recommender systems is that if I know enough to recognize a filter bubble, to put you into one, to recognize similarities, such that I can put you there, that means that I have enough data, if I'm a recommender system, to take you out of it. I know what similar is. That means that I know what different is also. And so within that very same system, in theory, I should be able to use the recommender system in a different way, not to give you exactly the same thing, but rather to very on-purpose, um, give you something else to give you something that is different. That's already entailed in the idea that I know enough to put you in a filter bubble in the first place.So in some sense, the, the problem may not be with the technology itself, but with this particular style of implementation, right. We could be implementing recommender systems that more aggressively are about spreading people away from the similar, and that's something you would do with more or less the same system you have now just tuned in a, in a slightly different way.Why is it not tuned in a different way? Well, that's not an algorithm thing, right? That's a business decision. Uh, the algorithm could go either way. It doesn't really care.[00:51:34] Cody: That seems like it comes back to the distinction that your engineering interviewee was talking about where you have the pyramid, with the sort of least engaged, they want to, as he says, lean back, put the music on and then just not really have to do anything to have to make any decisions, find new stuff, skip songs.And then you have the lean in musical savant and more engaged listeners. And clearly the vast majority of listeners and our viewers are going to be in that bottom chunk of the pyramid. And you have the highest probability of reaching the largest number of people by catering to that listener or viewer as your default option, rather than saying, oh, I'm going to try and shape the musical tastes of the youth in a way that exposes them to the meritorious histories of, of jazz and the, you know, unexpected sides of hip hop and all that sort of stuff. So it seems to me like that's a big current in all that's happening here.[00:52:38] Nick: Yeah, I would say one of the sort of stories that emerges over the course of my whole book is this transformation of music recommendation from the sort of first contemporary recommender system named as such in the mid 1990s, um, to the present. Where in the beginning, those early recommender systems were designed around the idea that the user was a really enthusiastic or avid listener, right? You were like really into music. You were going to put in some effort, you were going to open up a recommender system and try to use it specifically to find new stuff, right? You are almost by definition, a kind of crate digger, uh, in that context. Cause it was like more work to use a recommender system than to just turn on the radio. So you already had a way to not put a lot of effort. And uh, so you were in. You know, contemporary industry terms would, would put it, uh, you were a lean forward listener, right? You were someone who was sort of, uh, enthusiastically pursuing a new music.And then over time, since then, just what you described has happened, right? This sort of default assumption of what a user for these systems should be like, um, became something different, right? It became this lean-back listener. It became this person who like, eh, they might not even listen to music at all. So we need to find some way to, you know, entice them into doing it. And a recommended system was maybe a way of doing that. So you open up your Spotify or whatever, and you see, as long as you see something that you're like, sure, I'll listen to that. Then that would catch that person who otherwise may not listen at all. And that's a big change and it comes along alongside a change in data practices, to sort of loop back to this, uh, seeing like an infrastructure question, because those early recommender systems, what data did they have? They had data that you proactively gave them about what you liked, right? You would have to go in and explicitly rate artists, or if it was movies, uh, you know, you know, five stars on Netflix or whatever. And over time, those explicit ratings really get mostly replaced by what they would call implicit ratings. So the idea that listening to a song means that you like it a little bit. You listen to it a lot that becomes more of a sign that you like it. And this is the kind of logic we're very familiar with now in this sort of big data moment, right? This is what big data is all about. This idea that these behavioral traces are, uh, more real. They're easier for people to do. I don't have to explicitly rate something you to sort of know on the basis of what I'm doing. Or you think, you know, uh, what I like, and you might suggest that's a better account of what I like, you know. I might go on Netflix and, you know, give five stars to all of the fancy, classy people movies, but I never watched them. And if you kept recommending them to me, I wouldn't really use Netflix as much, but what I really want is, you know, 1990s action movies. And if you saw what I actually watched, you would know that that's a common argument that they'll make. So we have that transition in sort of three different things at the same time. The change in the kind of data that's available to recommender systems, right? This sort of like trace data of user behavior. We have this change in the economics of, uh, the online media industry right where everything's sort of become streaming and it's not, you know, Netflix used to be a DVD rental company, and then now it becomes something else, right, where they want you to spend more time on it. And that will feed back into getting more data. And then the third thing that comes around is this changing how we know things are, how the people building these systems, know things about their users, which are all entangled together in this sort of emergence of, uh, sort of modern data collection apparatus. And they're all mutually reinforcing cycles.So that's a really big change, I think in the way those, those systems work. And if people are looking for ways out of it, I think that one way that an anthropology of this can be useful is to really foreground and describe what exactly the situation is that we're in.And so one thing I tend to argue is that if we want to get out of some of this really aggressive data collection situation, which happens obviously in domains beyond music and in many other domains where it's much more significant. One thing we might want to think about then is how to intervene in these imaginations of users, right? In the vision of the user, as someone who doesn't really want to get involved, who we sort of tricked into listening, and therefore we have to capture as much data about them as possible because they're not going to give the data to us on purpose. If we change that model, if we change the way that we think about people, then I think that's a key part of the overall edifice of data collection and why data is seen as so valuable now.[00:57:08] Cody: I see that as, as tying into what we were talking about earlier with the model of the individual that the engineers are using is based off of basically the psychology of habits. And so data are most valuable in understanding how to exploit habitual systems and how to essentially, to go back to your metaphor use products as traps for habits and attention, whatever attention may be.And so it seems like part of what you're saying or another, a rephrasing of, of what you're saying an implication may be, is that the more we're able to put in to achieve that higher effort level of avidity, to engage more in a direct and meaningful and thoughtful way with whatever content we're consuming, the less we rely on habit, the less we can be exploited by an understanding of what we habitually do. And the more we can kind of be liberated from the cycle of collect data, exploit it, go further down the rabbit hole of social media and digital content consuming our attention and our lifestyles.[00:58:31] Nick: Yeah. And I think just to like loop back to what we talked about earlier this is one reason why I think having a kind of cultural understanding of the logics behind these systems and how people think is really useful, because a lot of the critiques of these systems we've seen now are couched in the sort of same habits science, behaviorist framework as the systems they're criticizing. So people who say, oh, you know, Facebook's a slot machine or whatever really believe that the best way to model human behavior is still that same behaviorist habit model, that same, you know, press a lever, give you a treat, rat in a cage kind of model. And I think that that model is really constraining in what kinds of futures we can imagine for what humans are going to do. And it really limits us to a certain narrow set of technical interventions. And so by trying to name that by trying to step back and say, what is this, what is this model of the human that's involved in these systems? I want to try, and this is something I'm trying to do with in my newer work on attention, to think about the sort of arbitrariness of those models, and how, if we want to imagine different futures, we might need to think about some of these foundational assumptions differently as well. I'm not sure that we're going to lever press our way out of a sort of behaviorist hellscape that we find ourselves in now.[00:59:54] Cody: Nick. It's been a great pleasure to talk, and I appreciate your perspective on all these things. I could probably go on asking you questions about this space of topics for the next two hours, but you've been really generous with your time. So thanks for taking the time to talk.[01:00:09] Nick: Thanks so much. It was a pleasure.[01:00:11] Cody: That was my conversation with Nick Seaver.I hope you enjoyed it. One of the topics that we didn't get around to is the connection between avidity and anthropological field work itself. It's a topic I know Nick has thought about in his work on attention, and it is also one of the things that I personally most admire about anthropology.My own field, psychology suffers from a historical lack of attention dedicated toward Western people. We study American college students. We assume that whatever we find there will apply to the rest of the world. The field has started to correct this in recent years, but I believe it's an assumption that's built into the psychological worldview in ways that are important and difficult to eradicate.But the premise of the field of anthropology, starting with historical figures like Tylor and Malinowski, is that attending to what other people are up to is actually a lot of work. It's not just enough to be vaguely interested in what other people are doing, especially far away people, but you actively have to search out the best possible vantage from which to observe and make sense of their behavior. To me, that's an application of this basic idea of attention as effort.So in this case, avidity — the amount of effort we're willing to put into acquire new information or seek new experiences — is not only crucial when it comes to the kind of content we consume, but crucial to our ability to understand people with different perspectives.This nods toward one of the foundations of our polarized society. We tend to be, especially as Americans, intuitive psychologists. We assume that the minds of people far away from us mostly look like the minds of people who are in our immediate vicinity. Then we're shocked to find that people who don't occupy our same cultural milieu think in a way that's totally foreign to us.Maybe we need to operate less in our default mode as intuitive psychologists and instead explore what it might mean to operate as intuitive anthropologists.I'd love to know what you thought of this episode. If you want to give me some feedback, you can go to survey.againsthabit.com. If you'd like to subscribe to my Substack newsletter for more content, you can go straight to againsthabit.com.This episode was edited and produced by Emily Chen. I'm Cody Kommers, and thanks for listening to Against Habit. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit codykommers.substack.com/subscribe

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It's easy to remember: http://value4value.io/ newpodcastapps.com I use https://fountain.fm If you're looking to discuss photography assignment work, or a podcast interview, please drop me an email. Drop Billy Newman an email here. If you want to look at my photography, my current portfolio is here. If you want to read a free PDF eBook written by Billy Newman about film photography: you can download Working With Film here. If you get value out of the content I produce, consider making a sustaining value for value financial contribution, Visit the Support Page here. You can find my latest photo books all on Amazon here. 0:14 Hello, and thank you very much for listening to this episode of The Billy Newman photo podcast. This is an image that I made a black and white from the wildflower mountains. Really beautiful spot out Northeastern Oregon. It's really one of my favorite spots in Oregon. But I probably said that about a lot of these photographs. And all of these places have been, this was a really special one I was here I think this is one of the furthest theories in the background that I've been in the allow mountains. And maybe for a lot of people that are more experienced with it, it wouldn't seem like that far. But that's one thing I really love about backpacking and about traveling outdoors and taking photographs is getting to a spot that's really interesting. And then staying kind of local to that spot for a couple days, or three days, four days, something around 70 to 200 hours or so. And I've heard that from other photographers in the past as well the ones that have bigger careers than I do where they really want to stay there for about three days. And after that that familiarity familiarity that they get from their experience is what really allows them to communicate the story of what's going on in that area, through their photographs in the most interesting way. So that I've heard about portfolio building in the past but I love that about this of getting the stay there and see the sunrise and sunset sunrise again, in the same location and kind of work it out and feel what the different moods of that environment look like during different times of the day. But I love how crisp and clean kind of the the mist the fog that's coming up on top of the lake is it's mirrored is really cool. It's such a dramatic landscape always been one of my favorites. 1:51 You can see more of my work at Billy Newman photo comm you can check out some of my photo books on Amazon. I think you can look at Billy Newman under the authors section there and see some of the photo books on film on the desert, on surrealism on camping, and cool stuff over there. So last time I was on the podcast, I was talking about knives I was talking about pocket knives I was talking about steel is talking about different types of steel that you can use in your pocket knife, or that pocket knife makers use in the pocket knives that they sell you, I suppose is what I meant. And I kind of wanted to continue on with some of that stuff today. And then I don't know maybe the other everyday carry kind of stuff that comes around that I've been thinking about a little bit too, but I was thinking about the couple knives that I have. So it's kind of going deep into like, well there's this dabish steel, there's this type of steel and this doesn't rust and this is hard and whatever that is, but I was gonna kind of jump in and just kind of go to the knives that I have. So I mentioned the Gerber Gator, I was gonna mention three knives. I think that'd be good. These are kind of the three that I'm into right now. But I was going to mention the Gerber Gator that's that like three and a half inch blade, you can get that real inexpensive, it's probably like 40 bucks tops at most places I picked mine up a biomart a couple years ago, it's held up great the coating on it sort of a rubberized coating that's held up great with the ozone stuff and they probably were out over a number of years, that's really fine with me and it's a sharp knife, it's D two steel, it works really well for most of the stuff that I do, but in a lot of ways it's kind of my cutting around knife. So I have in my my side pocket. When I'm doing some outdoor stuff, I can kind of carve on a tree, I can chop on some stuff, I can put a you know, like put an X in the tree when I'm marking my campsite or something like that's fun, I can kind of chop up whatever if I need to I can open a box, I can do all those kinds of things. And I feel pretty good about its length and its use as durability in the outdoors. So that when I kind of carry on me when I'm doing a little bit more outdoorsy stuff, I'm actually kind of going out for a bit, but that's sort of the end the pocket knife. And really when that extends it's about eight inches, and it's got like a pretty solid bit of grip to it. So it really feels like there's something in your hand and it really feels like there's a big thing in your pocket too. So that's kind of why I only carry it around when I'm actually kind of stepping out into into doing some real camping stuff. But the thing that I have with me every day now is this little like two and a half inch or two and a quarter inch Spyderco knife. I really liked this one. There's some smaller ones. There's some bigger ones. They're all kind of like a basic design. They've got sort of a, I guess it got a broad shaped blade. This one's kind of that it's a Scandi blade, I think it's a flat grind. And then sporadic coaster to know for these big finger holes or you know like on the blade. There's like this big circular hole that you kind of put your thumb into and use that to kind of whip out the blade as your your unfolding. This has got that locking back design as soon as that Gerber Gator too. I like that locking back folding design and then in addition to that I've got a really inexpensive phone Tang knife that he used for some of that baton and kind of whacking around stuff and data keep over in an ammo can that I have in my truck here when I'm out camping and stuff and maybe I'll throw that onto a backpack clip on the side so that I have it there but that's like a full thing. I think it's a four inch blade with about a four inch handle for as usually as a little more than that but so it ends up being about nine inches or so. And it's kind of based off the the the SA five p knife I think is what it would be you can look that one up cool knives I really liked those that's actually when I want to get the future this is sort of like a Chinese knockoff version of that. So I kind of break out the prices and a little bit but but uh yeah, if you look up those nicer like the rat three I think it's kind of pretty similar in style to that. But this one's made by SEMA. Sema is a Chinese company I don't know they even really exist as anything more than that but I found them online I found them on Amazon, they have a few different cheap knife options as it's printed on the blade they use a higher end steel at least in comparison at its price point. So I think this way that I have is a seven car blade which is okay. But it was like $20 for this full tang knife and that's really a lot with a micarta handle 6:24 and a she like a kydex sheath. So it's a great knife to kind of keep on the side over here. I've been using it like when I was saying I go out on the shun trail picking days you know have like have a camera bag on my side. I've emptied the camera out of it and then I've got like a just like a little shopping bag like a little plastic sack in there. And then as I'm walking around in the forest and stuff, I've got that full thing nice I'll pop that out as I find a Shawn trail I'll cut the base of it and then throw it in my bag pop the knife back in and then kind of carry on so I'm using it for like a lot of like kind of basic harvesting stuff like that it's just kind of been easy, easy side access and stuff for me while I've been kind of hunting around, he was forging stuff but really a lot of the time it stays in the car and it works really well and for that kind of knife and kind of for as often as I've been using it for some stuff it's sort of like a cool camp knife to kind of like whittle on stuff you know that are you know, kind of like dig and whittle and stuff whack on stuff. That's sort of the bushcrafting knife like last time I was talking about bushcraft and you know like petani through I want to insure it to interesting stick or something like that. Trying to make a What is it like a tent or a type hanger or like an A frame for a type or a frame for like boiling water and getting stuff ready for your fire or whatever is it mostly I just kind of use it to like backup smaller kindling sticks for firewood or feather sticks feather sticks are cool. I don't really think that this bushcraft knife is really been sharpened for it I kind of like the Spyderco knife a little bit more for some of the smaller, smaller feathering stuff but but when you really have like a sharp blade, it makes it so much easier sharpening something I want to get into too. But for these feather sticks, it's cool you get like a piece of kindling right like just kind of a long like foot long piece of dry wood that's sort of an inch or half inch thick around maybe a little thicker than that. 8:11 And then what you do is it takes a lot of skill to kind of get used to but you do this, this kind of long and thin car like if you were like grading if you're gonna like great just like a little fillet off of that one inch round stick and then you got all the way down to the end of the stick like the last like inch or centimeter and then you pulled up on your cut and then left that little last bit there. And when you get if you get it thin enough is that wood will kind of naturally curl up like a little piece of ribbon or something but it'll kind of curl up and it's going to be this dry, thin wisp of wood that's sort of curled up at the end of your branch there and that holds them and then you repeat that cut another nice thin thin little paper thin carve of wood off down to the bottom down in the last centimeter leave it there and then you sort of work your way around the whole stick there and then you kind of work around again a layer up and as you do that, if you put enough time into it, it really does take a good bit of processing but if you do that you can make out in the woods you can make these feather sticks, which are kind of cool. A lot of the time you have the tools on you to build a fire or to build a heat source without going into this much labor to try and produce some sort of tool to facilitate this for you but it is cool to know about if you're working in some conditions that are a little bit more difficult to get a fire gun but you get these these feather sticks set up you probably have to get a handful of them and then once you get your kindling set up, you can lay that you can get your your kindling or you can get just your your starter going. If you're able to like use like one of those fire rods is Ferro rods, you're able to strike that with your knife, throw the sparks down onto whatever you have is your fire starter if you can get that to the Kindle up into a flame. Then you put these feathers sticks right over it. Then you're able to because you kind of cut those those filets down into it, the the air is able to get in between the cuts of the wood that are so thin there. And as it's dry wood, it'll catch fire quickly the SAP and little burn. And then it'll really take off almost like it's a piece of paper, but it has that sustaining quality of being a real piece of wood. So you get a flame, and you get some embers to start burning off of it. And that's a good way to get a flame to build up quickly, then you're able to also have the kind of thicker pieces of wood attached to it there. So you're able to get kind of a stronger build of the kindling a little earlier on, it's kind of a cool way to do it. But I think really, in a lot of ways, man, it's a lot of preparatory work to get those, those pieces ready, if you're trying to build a fire in sort of a mobile situation, you know, if you're kind of setting up a base camp or setting up some, some sort of, you know, location where you're going to be, you're going to be and that's what your stuff is, and for whatever reason, you didn't bring any technical gear with you, that might be something that you run into to try and do. Or if you're trying to set up a fire in conditions that are wet, or like a little bit damp, or in some way, you know, more challenging to get a fire going. I think these are these are kind of good ways to do that, if you're stuck, but really the trick is to not get stuck. I think like that's kind of the big thing of a lot of the wilderness stuff that I've learned is that was sort of man, it was a couple channels of it, there's a whole bunch of stuff that you'd kind of think to worry about. As you know, like I need to start a fire and then there's sort of a whole complicated series of things you can do to naturally start a fire. If you want to go down that route, good skills to have good things to learn about. There's also sort of another route where you know about the modern world, you know about some of the tools you can get ahold of, and you can kind of cut down the time and the way and the expense or the expense on yourself that it takes the resources that you have to give up to get a fire going to get a thing going when you're out in the woods and if you kind of traveling light and trying to travel fast and not really staying in the same locations a lot. It's almost a greater expense of your energy and time to try and build a camp with wood and a knife every time you get somewhere than it is to just have a cup of pieces that you can bring in and then utilize quickly and then in a clean way you can kind of pull out you don't really risk injury or risk any loss of time. And you get kind of a lot of the benefit out of it a one I guess are kind of particularly dropping into that would be like a jet boil, or specifically for fire starting stuff. I guess it's kind of staying there. Jeb Bush is sort of one of the fancier ends of that. Really the most simple way is get cotton swabs and scoop up a bunch of petroleum jelly, you know like Vaseline, that kind of stuff. You can test this before you go out too but because some things are like a little different, but the petroleum jelly i think is supposed to light up pretty well so if you have a cotton ball, and a little petroleum jelly one, it's a cosmetic so you can use that as like a lip balm if you go out which is that I've been wracked with before when I go out and kind of quickly changing drier or higher elevation or colder climates than the one my skin and pores we're kind of used to before man I get burns and stuff in the cold. It's weird how that can be or chaps you know, like chapped lips but lips that sort of stuff. But the Vaseline can help a lot for that but if you have like a little Ziploc bag and some Vaseline, cotton swabs and then just like a regular pocket lady, you can light those up as your Firestarter release without having to hunt down dry moss and bark on the south side of a tree out in the woods somewhere while you're cold and trying to get a fire going. So you kind of pop one of these out. You hit that with your lighter or you hit that with your ferro rod if you don't have a ladder but really I say bring the lighter you have the yeah the Flint with you if you need it, you got the butane you can have a ferro rod as a backup if you like it, but for a lot of the kind of lighter just a few day kind of things. It's tricky man if you get a lighter that goes bad but I haven't really heard of like hunters are kind of longer term 14 plus day outdoorsman. going out with things that are way different than even just like a regular big lighter. The Ferro rods are cool though they seem to help a lot but I think there's some some cool stuff that you can do or there's the reliability of a lighter that I've had for a long time is kind of always helped me out or been fine for a lot of stuff that I've done for the shorter periods of time that I've been out but yeah, you can hit that fire starter and then put that under some kindling so you can get a fire gun pretty easy. In a lot of ways, I haven't really jumped into doing a lot of cold weather camping this year or cold weather kind of remote camping the man having a fire is great, but also sometimes not having a fire is sort of the way to go to like I've been talking about I've been using a like this portable propane heater with me a lot of the time and that's a lot lighter and a lot cleaner for some of the more simple stuff that you want like a little fire a little heat source from like if I'm going fishing down at the Bank of a lake and this has kind of come up just like a week or so ago when I went out to a spot but but yeah efficient down on the side of a lake he wants some heat there something and it's kind of nice to give you want to catch a fish throw a throw a casting skill down and like you know make it up there on the side of the bank but but if if you're out and yeah, just kind of carrying that real light kind of two pound or three or four pound 15:25 little box down with you hooking the propane up to it and then yeah, boom, you got heater right there, you throw in your cast and you can kind of kind of manage temperatures that go down a lot more so it makes just kind of the simple things a lot more comfortable that sort of for the car camping based stuff, I wouldn't really ever pack that out with me. But But even for when I pack it out, I sort of noticed that if I go with a lighter bit of stuff, it really ends up being okay, a lot of the time so sometimes it's cool, especially at night to have the big fire and stuff but even for like a lot of the cooking stuff that I do or a lot of the midday stuff that I do if I'm taking a break, I really want to just pull out the Jetboil from my backpack, through the fuel canister on it filled out, catch up with water, make a tea and make a coffee or something like that or make a soup or whatever kind of kind of backpacking meal might be in there. That That kind of thing is or even just like as the Jetboil is like a source of heat is pretty cool. And then if you had the the dry wood and kindling sources around, you can use that as a as a fire starter tool too. But which has happened a couple times it's kind of an off label use i don't i don't really recommend this stuff. But even just having a quick little jet boil, punch that on, get some water hot, heat up your hands and stuff and then kind of rely on your jackets and your waterproof gear to keep you warm through at least most of the daylight hours and stuff but that's kind of kind of how I've tried to avoid some of that stuff. Yeah, the nice stuff. It's been pretty cool. I like yeah working with that Gator. The spider co dragonflies kind of a smaller pocket knife every day and then yeah, that bigger Sema knife has been pretty cool been been digging that for some of the bigger kind of bushcraft and stuff that I got to do. 17:10 sharpeners sharpeners are pretty important I think sharpening also don't sharpen very much and so that's kind of one of the things is I'm sort of probably most notably a an irresponsible knife owner at least in the sense of trying to keep them sharp so I'm normally more likely to just buy a new $15 knife you know go from one night to the next night to the next step to the next knife as as I noticed that the blade on it goes dull you know like I buy that's how it was for the longest time especially the kind of early on is you know, I kind of afford a cheaper knife that was cool. I thought at the time I didn't really know much about it, but you know, hey, this is great, it's a it's a step up from my, my Victorinox that I used to carry around so this is cool, you know, easy folding blade knife or whatever it is I'll use this and then by the time it gets dull or it gets kind of shaky in the handle or whatever it is they end up just kind of tossing a knife and I don't even really ever worry about tooling the knife or sharpening the blade and the knife and really a lot of time it's not been a quality of blade to really bother to invest that much into so in some parts, that's my fault from the very beginning. But the thing I'm trying to do now more responsibly is even if it is like a less expensive knife train tool that knife to keep it in good shape, but also kind of select a knife that's going to be a fine knife for a longer period of time. I don't think they all have to be brilliant, you know, state of the art knives you know there's like 30 or 40 year old buck knives that are made out of 316 steel that people have had around as their hunting knives forever. So I think that's really cool and that's really I think I was talking about a bit last time on the podcast I'll bring it up again this time to a knife is really a cutting tool you know it's supposed to be just like a sharp blade and so so it's cool to kind of use that as just that tool and kind of work that that blade down to be a sharp piece for you when you're out in the woods and stuff but for a lot of time. If it's not like a specialized knife that I'm using for like something a little bit more specific that I'm trying to bring it in for and it's just kind of my cutting around knife. It really ends up cutting on all that stuff which could be sticks or wood or it's just sort of like a tool knife that I used to you know like cut fishing line or or wrap up rope or get something ready on the truck or get something rigged up on my backpacker or whatever it is you know so it's kind of like a lot of occupancy and that puts a lot of like wear damage on the blade. And for as little as I'm saying I sharpen it. The blade is really often pretty dull. Like I don't know if it's really like practice to just do an easy slice through a lot of stuff. We were really like take advantage of that cutting edge on it so so yeah sharpening stuff is cool. There's a couple brands that do sharp things out there you can get them in a lot of places. I think the one that I see often is Smith's as a sharpener. They do a lot of kitchen stuff, they do a lot of pocket Mike's knife stuff, you can get them a Walmart you can get them up by Mart, I'm pretty sure the one I prefer Though is the brand work sharp workshop you can find a lot of places to. They're available online also and if you're an Oregonian, I think it's a company based at Ashland Oregon I had no idea until I was looking at the pamphlet and trying to figure out which pieces I should get but workshop they have a number of different sharpening tools and I guess the reason I kind of elevate them above the Smith stuff, at least for for some of the things that I'm kind of interested in their tools are just like similarly priced but like a little bit more robust on the on the work sharp side so specifically is this this electric belt sharpener that I'm looking at that sharpener has way more flexibility way more robustness way higher horsepower, just kind of machining to it the other Smith's kind of knockout version of it is much more limited much thinner component pieces, kind of plastic component pieces. Nowhere near the same kind of quality or longevity would be expected in that as a tool. There's other pieces sort of like oh, that's like you know, that's like a power tool sort of what you're looking at there. Also in addition to that the workshop stuff has I guess it's like a sharpening bench you would call it I think it's like a field sharpener. I'm actually pretty interested in this but I think it's a field sharpening pieces sort of like a little flat piece that you you bring with you in your your backpack or in your truck when you're going out on a trip and you'd have in your camper, you'd have it with you and to sharpen up a knife and it really takes more time than I thought it did you know you kind of look at a quick video or something and you look at a guy kind of do a quick wax on a sharpener and then Nick Yeah, there you go. Cutting the hair off my arm in no time but really for a lot of this stuff after I've kind of been on a knife for a bit. It takes like a half hour to kind of work the two sides of a knife on a whetstone and grind it down with an electric sharpener man it's like you know a past two passes or whatever it is to kind of re re angles that that grind immediately that if you just kind of rub in that blade against the stone it takes a long time to sort of work in the sharpness to it you know and really level up that knife to a higher level but but yeah, this workshop 22:06 sharpening bench is pretty cool it's kind of a little little platform it's got these angle guides on as you can put the knife on that angle and then cut across that flat surface and then kind of put the right angle grind in on your your cutting knife then on the side of it I think it has like ceramic alignment rod you guys seen those in your kitchen or something to you know you rent your kitchen knife or you seen a chef or something before they they get going on a piece of meat or their vegetables or whatever you see little chef video and they kind of run the chef knife across this this sort of solid rod they put down to the table Oh shrink, shrink, shrink shrink, and then they they align the blade by kind of coming in on the right cut and then the left cut of the blade from the I guess from the hilt is that by your the top of your hand there when you grab it but sort of from the hilt end to the point yeah. And then it kind of I guess it pushes the atoms it pushes the blade you know whatever little kind of microscopic warbles you'd have those little meanders that you'd have and what you'd want it to be a real straight fine aligned blade there I guess those kind of those kind of quick slices on that piece of steel they align that and then bring that into a sharper piece there's also like a leather strap I've never gotten into leathers butter strap I should probably that's sort of a part of that I really don't understand yet. I was like working the leather strap I've seen people use their belts that sort of made the most sense to me if you have that around but really like as as the thing I'm going to bring out back with me I haven't really brought that back out but but yeah you're in the knife backside across the leather and that's supposed to I guess do even more to sharpen it but at a point it's like man it must be some sharp knife Have you seen the test like that you know when they put it up to their arm hair or you know like guys do that a lot I've seen chefs do that but they put it up to the hair and then they kind of do just a real light little just hardly whispering across the the hairs that stand up on the wrist and there's a knife blade is easily able to just kind of cut right through that without a real hesitation or kind of bending it over and knocking it down and dragging it out. That's supposed to be a sharp knife that's like your your litmus test for it is almost razor sharp. That's what it seems like you know, sharp enough to shave with it seems so I've seen people like work their axes down to that sharpness, right? You see people with an axe head and grind that down to such a sharp net that they can take, take that axe and cut the hairs off their wrist or I guess shave off their face with a hatchet. You know, that's a little more. That's a little more lumberjack that I'm willing to do. I'm kind of just hanging out trying to take some pictures trying to stay warm, trying to keep the heat going to keep a knife sharp. So kind of cool stuff. But yeah, thanks for talking about knives and sharpening. 24:59 You can check out More information at Billy Newman photo comm you can go to Billy Newman photo.com Ford slash support. If you want to help me out and participate in the value for value model that we're running this podcast with. If you receive some value out of some of the stuff that I was talking about, you're welcome to help me out and send some value my way through the portal at Billy Newman photo comm forward slash support, you can also find more information there about Patreon and the way that I use it if you're interested. Or if you're more comfortable using Patreon that's patreon.com forward slash Billy Newman photo. 25:39 I've been working on a few photos, putting out a couple. And it's been going okay. I don't know I last week, I tried to put out a bunch of stuff, which was, which was good. That's cool. I've been trying to go through like a bunch of the photographs that we had. There were leftover from our September trip. Hey, yeah. And I had a blast going on, like a big, big trip around Eastern Oregon and the backup to Eugene. And we got a bunch of photos from it. But I haven't really been able to cut through most of them. Since we've gotten back. 26:06 You know, it's really been true for me, too. Yeah, I've been busy. I've been editing other work photos, like wedding photos since we got back from that trip. So I know you've been working. It's really in this last couple of weeks that I've finally barely lightly started getting into that editing. 26:25 I'm trying to do it when I'm at work, and yeah, pull up the files and I go through and I'll edit a couple and I'll probably try to edit a couple that'll try and post. And that's been a good way to go through it. Or I'm just kind of chipping at it. A little bit at a time. But it's been pretty, pretty useful so far. But yeah, I think the first one was a follow up today. I put up an older photo as a Facebook ad. I think I'll talk about that in a minute was the other one that I put up. I don't even remember. I think I put a picture. Oh, I put up the picture of the alvord at sunrise that we were talking about and I think we put up the other day on the Facebook page. Hey, that was a cool one. I liked it. Yeah, I like this photo that we have for the billing name and photo podcast cover out in the alvord sunrise the cool day, like hanging out or we did a bunch of stuff on the onboard morning but it was so much colder this time. It was different it was only like a week later in the year than the you know time we'd gone Yeah, yeah, I mean I know that was early September and a mid September is really almost a different season. But man Yeah, it was a bit cold that day we had like a bunch of I think it was the day we left there was a lot of clouds up in the air. Up in the higher elevations you can see like a lot of texture in the clouds. And then you saw that dust storm kind of Yeah. Yeah, the center there it is cool. It's really cool. Yeah, it's strange how, how big it is out there. You know, you look out and there's this big wall, a dust bowl and a grass. But you don't realize that that's just like miles away from you. And it goes on for miles of dust inside of that, but it's just not where you are. And it's so flat. You just see up to that. That change and whether that's up there. It was really weird seeing that. 28:09 It was weird. Yeah, it was interesting driving around it and seeing Yeah, cuz you're because your perception of like, where it is and how, what the size of it actually, is really it's difficult to 28:20 Yeah, I thought it was just a weird thing. You think it's closer than it is? Yeah. It's very strange. Yeah, that's cool, though. It's cool drab enough to it. Then you're just like, wow, this is like a whole big, foggy, thick weather system. You know, it's very strange. It was just really weird and kind of surreal to like, see it? But it was cool. to spot that. 28:41 Yeah, it was interesting being out there a second time. Oh, yeah. 28:45 I dug it. I thought it was cool. We went to the fields store. Oh, yeah. So last time we were out there was 2014. And then and then there's, you know, 2015, and then 2016. And now in 2017. We went back we went out to fields. And you can get like a milkshake and get a burger out there and get gas out there. I think you can get like a little motel stay out there if you want to. And it's kind of near the border by Nevada before you get into the niaa. And it's the nearest thing to get any resources outside of the alvord. And it was cool. When we went down there. I think we looked at the there's this sort of post that they have for the years past and it shows like how many burgers they sold. And then and then like how many milkshakes they sold. And like, I think it was the 2013 it was like 5230 something like that it was kind of close to for the years before that. And 2014 it was about that. The year that we went and then the year after we went It was like 6200 it was like 1000 Gold jump or something. Yeah, and then it was like 6500 the next year so you're like wow, I bumped up like so much there's a 20% increase in traffic through the alvord area just since the time that we saw Are you coming here? Yeah, I really didn't see that jumping in the period before. 30:03 No, no, it was really consistently. Like about that same number. Yeah, yeah, 30:08 it was like the 4000s or something like that. So hamburger sales. That's my metric to the traffic through the outboard area. But it was interesting. 30:18 It was really interesting. Cool. 30:20 I was kind of surprised. Now think about it. I want a milkshake. And I want a cheeseburger master. I think we might have tried this podcast at Bain a few. I think we'll do that. But But really, there really needs much 3d emotion. It was fun, though. Going out there to fields. Yeah, seeing that, but seeing kind of the influence of how much how many people are out there and alvord now Yeah, it seemed like there are way more campers out there. Oh my gosh, just kind of doing different projects and different kinds of things. Lots of photo projects. 30:57 Yeah, that was so interesting to see. 30:59 I was surprised to see that. Yeah. A couple models with little people assisting a little bounce cards and stuff, trying to throw some light onto them and little breezy. pieces of fabric. 31:11 Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. Seeing like a few other people set up out there for photoshoots. 31:16 Yeah, yeah. And a bunch of campers kind of put out, you know, on the on the farther perimeter. It seemed like there's a lot of people that were kind of kept posted up out there. And it didn't seem like there was any particularly big event or something going on. I 31:28 just know, I think that it's just more well 31:31 traveled. Yeah. So our Instagram posts, we gotta say, yes, it's 31:38 been 31:39 fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. It was so cool. Going out there the first time shoot. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a blast. But it was kind of fun spotting that stuff and going out there second. That was really cool. We spent a couple days out there in the truck and attempt but yeah, windier cold air much 31:55 when you're Oh my gosh. I yelled up the sand during the day. There was no way to avoid it. That's a 32:03 little ply that stuff. Yeah, it was weird. Yeah. Just comes in up on the sleeping bags and stuff just kind of blown about. Yeah, it's a really weird thing. How it comes together. 32:12 I must be what Burning Man is closer to the first time we were in the airport. It was not as windy. Anywhere dusty, definitely. But our stuff was much easier for me to clean. 32:23 Yeah. Before I remember that. Yeah, it was it was definitely easier. Way difficult. It was frustrating. But 32:30 it was. It was cool. Seeing a different kind of water system kind of moving through there having to be more stormy. 32:37 I did like that. Yeah. Heavier cloud. Yeah. I missed out on having a couple good sunsets. I 32:42 missed that. I was disappointed with a couple of the nights because there wasn't a sunset. It was sort of strange almost disappeared was behind the cloud, which was behind the mountain. Yeah. Yeah. It just went to just gray. Gray right away. Yeah. But there wasn't any color in the sky. It was really strange. 33:00 I was thinking that yeah, it was partly cloudy. I thought it was broken up enough that we get a couple of good sunsets or, you know, some some good textures as it was fading off. But yeah, we really missed most of it. And yeah, just definitely dropped to gray and blue pretty fast and wasn't really quite what I was looking for. But some of the textures on that last day, they were kind of interesting, listening a little bit more stormy. And it was cool on that drive out. I think I had a couple of those posts. This last week on that day that we drove out on highway 78 to go to crane and then up into burns. And I think we pulled over a couple times I took a couple photos. But those are some others that I put up on Instagram. And pretty recently, I've been trying to do a bunch on Instagram, I've been trying to do a bunch of like, reaching out and direct messaging stuff. I've been trying to do like a little bit more networking stuff overall, too, which has been working a bit and I've been trying to work on my story too. Like the Instagram story. I think you've been noticing a little bit like I put up each of the posts that I put up in the day, I try and copy those in Instagram and then and then post them over into the story also. And then I've also been messing around with adding like your location to your story and tag to it. Which is something you can pull out from the filters, if you swipe up on the on the thing when you're making it. And you can add a couple of things. But that like puts it into a location it tags it there. And I think if you do a search for stories, like there's one that was put in, like Eugene, and there's like a bunch of people that that hit it throughout the day, just because it was tagged with a location. So I'm going to try and do that more with some of the location stuff and use that a little bit more interestingly, to try and get people to see some of those posts. 34:35 That's really cool. I didn't know that was a feature I have I need to get into the Instagram story stuff. 34:40 There's a lot you can think of Yeah, yeah, I don't really understand it well enough either. But there's a good bit of traction similar to like how Snapchat, you just kind of like keep watching the video keeps moving. I think it's really visual. So I like a lot of that stuff. And you really get into see what people are doing in sort of a really late way, like what snapshots use for now and really what snapshot was part of what Instagram was, like years ago back in 2010 2011. When I first got on, it was it was really like a lightweight thing where you just take take a picture of anything was sort of you take, take a picture of your food, take a picture of a drink, take a picture, just some silly place that you're at sort of thing, but it wasn't really any kind of highfalutin level of professionalism or edited posts that would go up. There was just, you know, a square only, right, yeah, there's only the really rough filters that you could apply from your cell phone photos. So yeah, I remember I remember those days that Instagram too, and it's weird to kind of see how it's progressed a little bit. But similarly, like the stories are a really lightweight way of just kind of showing anything that you're doing or kind of expressing like the the moments of your life, like Snapchat, everybody's kind of familiar, I guess, with the, the language of Snapchat nowadays. But it's cool. There's a lot of distribution on the Instagram stories. Like there's, there's a good bit of people that it shows do see a lot of the the content that you put up there. So that's kind of fun to be messing around with. And yeah, I'm trying to like, take those little like snapshots. Yeah, like screenshots on my phone of the Instagram app showing like the the photo that I'm featuring on that day, and then I throw that in there. And I put the location and a hashtag or something with it. And that's been a cool way to test some stuff out. And, yeah, I'm trying to mess around with that. But try to keep that for I think they kind of heard from marketing stuff that like you want to try and put in about six a day. Which seems like a lot. Yeah, it's like a lot of stuff. But yeah, like every couple hours, you're trying to get like some one or two second thing up. And that's why I try and like kind of punch it up with a few of the photo posts or screenshots. So that those are like remarketed. And if I do like a podcast or something like that, I try to put up some kind of notifier in there. And then like a couple of posts to the photos and working on my day, the camera I'm using or something like that. We should do something of podcasts. Yeah, it would be cool. But yeah, thanks for sure. Do it like a bunch more podcasts? 36:55 I'm so happy to be doing it. Yeah, I really like being project smart audio stuff is really cool. 37:01 Audio is going to explode in the next year or two. 37:06 Yeah, you really write about it, it's totally going 37:09 to be like, the thing of the future. old radio is gonna be the new future. So I think it was like really, the thing that's gonna be like, taken off. And it's what I've been thinking about for years, or you know, like audio podcasting. So it was cool. 37:22 Yeah, you really been on top of it. Oh, but 37:26 I need to be doing more stuff with it. You know, radio is a weird thing, like radio and like, and like college atheists. That's really weird. Getting into podcasting is sort of a strange thing at the beginning, but just like getting in and doing it, you know, it feels like a strange thing. I don't know if it's felt like that for you a little bit. 37:41 It is really difficult to adjust to. You're a really good speaker to begin with, I'd say and I'm not No. Thank you. 37:51 I appreciate you doing. 37:52 Thanks for doing it with me for a few years now. I should be a little bit better. 37:57 A lot better. And I remember like a couple of my first ones. It's like a muscle that you build. I've heard other people talk about it that way. But speaking in a mic. You got to do it for like 100 hours. And then it's like, you're still bad, but you can kind of do it a little. It's a weird thing. Yeah, I don't. But that's what I want to try. I'm still under 100 hours, right? So do another little short podcast. Yeah, 38:22 I think it's gonna be great. I think it's gonna be cool in the show every night. 38:26 No, it'll be it'll be great practice for us. And in 24 months, if we kind of keep doing podcast stuff, like we want to. Yeah, yeah, that's really gonna develop into something that we're proud of. Yeah. But yeah, I think we started doing this billion one photo when like in 2015. That's when I first started setting up some microphones and like, this laptop is an audio podcast and thing. So it's cool to have it go through a couple different iterations and sort of develop it and get to use the studio more and get to develop it more. I think it's gonna be cool. Put up more stuff and using like this, on our website, on iTunes, and on YouTube, on Facebook. 39:02 Everywhere. Yeah, I 39:04 think it's really cool. Thanks for being my producer. 39:06 Yeah, thanks for training me to be a podcast producer. I'm so excited. Yeah, I want to get into some sound clips with you later. 39:13 Oh, yeah. Let's cut in. That'd be a cool idea. We should go for with that. This week. We should try to find some cool sound stuff and try and settle on some stuff. 39:22 Yeah. Next week this week. Pick some sounds ferocious. 39:25 Ooh. Yeah, we got to get fresh sounds. I want to do more. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I'm gonna do just a little bit body just a little production. 39:33 Yeah. I'm so excited about it. I really, I needed sleep. I like that part. So yeah. 39:38 I love it. Yeah, I like it. All the other podcasts that we hear with, you know, pre production elements to come in, you know, that makes it's great. I dig it. So it'll be fun for us to kind of do some of the same stuff with it. I think along with all the content that I've been putting up, like on Instagram, like the content that I'm putting up, we've been just now I'm starting to mess around with boosting posts. I was working with Facebook, and the Facebook page system and the advertising system. I think I've been learning a lot from that just in the last two weeks or so. 40:10 Yeah, I think it's so cool and valuable that you've been getting into that. 40:15 Oh, yeah, I think it's definitely super valuable. And it 40:17 seems like it's really effective. It's really effective, like, 40:21 for the day and date for the age that it is right now, for the attention that Facebook has, like for the population that Facebook has, using it constantly. Twitter, Twitter is not the deal. Facebook is facebook is great, every Grandma, every dad, everybody hits Facebook one time a day, or a couple of times a day, really, the data shows a lot of times. And so there's just so many opportunities for an impression of your ad to be seen, or for your content to get promoted to the right audience. And there's so many abilities for you to target people with the data that Facebook has. So you can really get down and find audiences that you couldn't have before. Even just friends of friends, so everything, that's a great audience for me to start with. But just being able to like put your put your stuff in there and get your content promoted to your entire audience. That's a new thing. or not, well, it's a new thing for me, I suppose. But it's an because Facebook once allowed you to promote that much content to your entire social feed, you used to get a lot of engagement. But now because of the algorithm, it kind of tailors unpaid content back a lot, right? In the fee, if it's not being shared attentive, it's not super interesting. And then now to get it to get it higher ranked in the feed, then you know, you pay this $5 amount and you get you know, a value of that for your impressions that you buy. That's cool. It's a good advertising system for boosted posts. And there's there's other stuff that I'm not really sure about that I want to try and talk to more people about to put some of those pieces together of trying to understand some of the ideas around working like an advertising campaign. So there's boosting posts, which is just the content that you would you would post regularly into your feed. I'm trying to do that with like, like portfolio level photographs that we have. Or just other other fun photo content that we can put up like the most successful one so far was one of the first ones I did have a cabin in the woods up in the wallowa Mountains beautiful spot beautiful little kabaneri up next to a really cool kind of Alpine looking mountain. And so I get why it was kind of an attractive photo to be advertised. But it was interesting. Yeah, like how effective it was, it was cool to kind of see how much of an audience it could get to if it was promoted a little bit. And it's interesting too, if you put a good bit of money behind even a single post that really delivers it to a really large audience. And if that audience like appreciates what you're doing, like you do get a drawback of people interacting with the content and people liking your page. And all of that kind of eventually turns into the value of a larger brand or a larger network. And there is like a lot of value in that that I think we can build maybe over the next 24 or 36 months. Yeah, well it's still good it's still gonna be a good deal you know, like Google AdWords now it's not really as good as it was back in like 2002 1000 we should we should do Google AdWords, but like 2017 we should try and do a bunch in these Facebook advertisements, Facebook boosted posts. I'm really excited for it. I think it's a good way that we could build a cool part of our content media photo business. 43:20 Yeah, I love it. I think it's so cool being able to because this is something we talked about being the challenge of being able to actually find an audience Yeah. And it's really cool being able to actually reach more people who would want to see our stuff 43:34 Yeah, there's there's some math to do on it but like paying for distribution is really worth it like absolutely it is cheaper. If you think about it for time, like say it would take 10 years to build an audience that would be an equivalent size that you can make some money on but like you would make a lot more money if you made that audience in two years and then worked that audience for eight years. That makes sense it's like some kind of like compound math of how big something I don't really understand it but maybe there's a salesman talking about it. But it seems like it seems like the benefit of it would be now like working faster now and I'm really excited for I think it's cool I've been trying out like a couple different ads and different promoted pieces and stuff and it's kind of interesting figuring out like what works better where to target stuff. And I got to figure out more stuff about that but it's definitely something just to research. I wish I knew more about it intuitive or you know, just like from the start but there's definitely some stuff that we should try. I wish I could afford it is really the thing I want to try and put you know like $50 $100 behind like each of these more impressive posts are more than the things that seem to like catch on better with people Sure. Yeah, and I want to try to like put like a bunch behind it and then try and like get a better market demographic selected so that new people get to see some of this work or see some of these photographs. And then you know, like come on or you know, join or communicate. And then I also want to do some stuff like when we transition into selling more photo packages to like generating leads with Facebook advertisements, or generating like contacts. There's an option to like, have people like schedule a meeting with you? Oh, right. All sorts of things, of calls to actions that you can you can use in in some of these advertisement systems. So there's a lot of things that you could pay for, that you could probably really generate some business with, which is a cool thing. 45:20 Yeah, I think it's really interesting to be getting into more. Yeah. 45:24 It's interesting to get into it, for sure. And it's fun, like, as a photographer, as people trying to do media stuff, just the, the different opportunities, just kind of some of the things you learn about 45:33 it. So yeah, I think it's really cool. It's really paying Facebook. 45:37 But it's cool. I think, you know, getting average. It's like it's real. 45:43 Yeah, yeah. No, because it is Israel. I love that it works. 45:47 Yeah, we got to buy some marketing stuff. And it's been coming together. I think it's been really cool. 45:51 That's cool. So you're, you've been doing the Facebook ads, and you've also checked out the Instagram ads. But 45:58 I've been trying more Instagram ads. And it's interesting with the Instagram ads, like I ran promotions, it's interesting how it's set up, because Facebook owns Instagram. So somebody that's connected, I've been trying to do a bunch from the phone. The phone's been great, and just trying to like develop more, more systems for that and how it worked. But you can do promotions just from Instagram, which works pretty well, if you'd like to do that. I think we started at $3. And it's probably like a $5. CPM, I think it's a cost per 1000, which is pretty similar to how it is on Facebook. But what I've been doing is using like the Facebook pages app, and the Facebook ads app that you can get for your iPhone. Yeah. And I've been trying to like manage the advertisements from those two apps. For both Facebook and Instagram, there's a there's an option where you can like simultaneously run this ad on Instagram, that you have just from just from your Facebook ads program. Yeah. And so when you're creating an ad for your Facebook page, you can click just slide this lever over, it says, simultaneously run this ad on Instagram. And I think you know, it kind of picks the market and sends it out. And it seems like it's a pretty effective way to do it. If Instagrams information about the demographics of the person that correct what I've noticed sometimes is that you put some money into it, and it doesn't really seem quite as effective on Instagram, given the amount of attention that's on Instagram. So there's probably some tricks around advertising on Instagram. I think maybe it's like a little bit more. I don't know, I just don't really have the keys to it, but it seems like just because they were separate social networks. It seems like Instagram maybe doesn't know as much about a person. Like how old they are or like should they see the ad that I'm promoting to them? Yeah, seems like it gets a little a little wishy washy. Sometimes Facebook is really tight. And what that means is that your cost per impression is lower so it's more effective for your money, I think is I think a little bit of what I've been understanding but I'm not really sure I'm just kind of experimented twice so I've tried to figure out some stuff around it but it's been really cool kind of getting close to thanks a lot for checking out this episode of The Billy Newman photo podcast. Hope you guys check out some stuff on Billy Newman photo.com few new things up there some stuff on the homepage, some good links to other other outbound sources, some links to books and links to some podcasts like this. A blog posts are pretty cool. Yeah, check it out at Billy numina photo.com. Thanks a lot for listening to this episode and the back end. Thank you Next

There are certain age milestones where you should really pay attention to your retirement planning progress. On this episode, we'll look at the most important birthdays as you approach retirement and cover the exact things you should be checking off your to-do list at each age. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey, everybody. Welcome into another addition of the podcast. This is Retirement Planning Redefined, with John and Nick and myself, talking investing, finance, retirement, and birthdays.   Mark: We're going to get into important birthdays in the retirement planning process. As we get older, I don't think any of us really want birthdays, but these are some things we need to know. They're pretty useful. Some of this is pretty basic. Some of this stuff's got some interesting caveats in it as well. So you might learn something along the way. It can go a long way towards that retirement planning process.   Mark: We're going to get into that and take an email question as well. If you've got some questions of your own, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com.   Mark: John, what's going on, buddy? How you doing?   John: A little tired. Got woken up at 2:00 in the morning with two cranky kids.   Mark: Oh yeah.   John: So if I'm a little off today, I apologize.   Mark: There you go. No, no worries. You get the whole, they climb the bed, and then you're on the tiniest sliver?   John: I got one climb into bed, I think kicked me in the face at one point.   Mark: Oh, nice.   John: Another one climbed into bed missing out on the other one, because they share a room. Then I had the sliver. I woke up almost falling off the bed.   Mark: There you go. And usually freezing because you have no blankets.   John: Yeah, yeah.   Mark: That's usually the way it goes. Nick's sitting there going, "I don't know what you guys are talking about."   Mark: What's going on, buddy. How you doing?   Nick: Yep. No. Pretty low maintenance over here.   Mark: Well, that's good. Hey, don't you have a birthday coming up?   Nick: I got a couple months still.   Mark: Okay, a couple months.   Nick: Yeah, I just got back from a trip a few weeks ago. Some buddies that I grew up with, a group of us have been friends for a really long time, I guess, going back to middle school. We're all turning 40 this year, so we rented a house in Charleston, and all survived.   Mark: Nice. There you go.   Nick: Yeah. It was good.   John: This is how you know Nick's turning 40. He came back with neck pain.   Mark: Exactly.   Nick: Yeah.   Mark: Hey, when you start to get a certain age, you start going, "When did I hurt that?" It's like, "I didn't even do anything." Yeah. You don't have to do anything.   Mark: Well, you know what? That's a good segue. Let's jump into this.   Mark: We're going to start with age 50. I turned 50 last year. First of all, the thing that sucks is you get the AARP card. I don't know about all that. That's annoying as a reminder that you're 50.   Mark: But the government does say, "Hey, let me help you out a little bit here if you need to catch up on some of the retirement accounts, help building those up." Talk to me about catch up contributions, guys.   Nick: Yeah. Essentially what happens is when you hit 50, there's two types of accounts that allow you to start contributing a little bit more money. The most basic one is an IRA or a Roth IRA, where the typical maximum contribution for somebody under 50 is 6,000 a year. You can add an additional thousand to do a total of 7,000 a year. The bigger one is in a 401(k) or 403(b) account, where you're able to contribute, I believe it's an extra 6,500 per year.   Nick: This is also a good flag for people to think about where, hey, once that catch up contribution is available, it's probably a good time, if you haven't done any sort of planning before, to really start to dial in and understand your financial picture a little bit more. Because if you talk to anybody that's 60, they'll tell you that 50 didn't seem too far back. So that's a good reminder to dig into that a little bit.   Mark: Yeah. It adds up. It's not necessarily chicken feed. You might hear it and think, "Well, a thousand dollars on this type of account over a year, or 6,500 on the other type of account, whoopedidoo." But if you're 50 and you're going to 67, let say, for full retirement age, and we'll get to that in a little bit, that's 17 years of an extra seven grand. It's not exactly chicken feed, right?   Nick: No. It's going to be big money down the road.   Mark: Yeah, exactly. So that's 50.   Mark: John, talk to me about 55. This one's really similar to 59 and a half, which most of us are familiar with, but most people don't understand the rule at 55. So can you break that down a little bit?   John: Yeah. We don't see people utilize this too often, but an example would be let's say you're 50, 55, 56, and for whatever reason, you leave your current job. You have an opportunity, at that point...   John: Let's give a bad scenario. You get laid off. If you didn't have a nest egg saved up in savings, there's an opportunity to actually access some money from your 401(k) plan without penalty. What you'll do is, basically, you take the money directly from the plan, and you just have it go to your bank account, and the 10% penalty's waived.   John: Now, some people need to be careful with this. Once you roll it out to an IRA, this 55 rule here, where the 10%'s waived, ceases to exist. It has to go from the employer plan to you directly in that situation. It's a nice feature if someone finds themselves in a bad situation, or they need access to money, and the 10% penalty's gone, but you still have to pay your income tax on that money [crosstalk 00:05:03]   Mark: Of course. Yeah. That caveat being, it's only from the job that you've just left, right? It can't be from two jobs ago kind of thing. It's got to be that one that you've just walked away from, or been asked to leave, or whatever the case is. That's that caveat.   John: Correct.   Mark: It's basically the same rules, Nick, as the 59 and a half. It's just is attached to that prior job. But 59 and a half is the more normal one. What's the breakdown there?   Nick: Yeah. Essentially what happens is, at 59 and a half, you are able to take out money from your qualified accounts while avoiding that penalty without any sort of caveats. One thing to keep in mind is that usually you're taking it out from accounts that...   Nick: For example, if you're currently employed, the process of taking it out of the plan where you're employed can be a little bit different, but it's pretty smooth and easy if you have an IRA or something like that outside of the employer plan.   Nick: One other thing that happens in most plans, for people at 59 and a half, is, and we've seen it a bunch lately, where a lot of 401(k) plans have very restricted options in fixed income and those sorts of things, where most or many plans allow people to take inservice rollovers, where they're able to still work at their employer, but roll their money out of the plan to open up some options for investments outside of the plan.   Nick: That's not always the best thing for people. Sometimes the plans are great. Fees are really low. Options are great. So it may not make sense, but oftentimes people do like having the option to be able to shift the money out without any sort of issue.   Mark: Okay. All right. So that's the norm there. You got to love that half thing. You always wonder what the senators or whoever was thinking when [crosstalk 00:06:56]   John: Finally, they got rid of the 70 and a half [crosstalk 00:06:58]   Mark: Yeah. They get rid of that one. Yeah. We'll get to that in just a minute as well.   Mark: John, 62, nothing too groundbreaking here, but we are eligible finally for Social Security. So that becomes... I guess the biggest thing here is people just go, "Let me turn it on ASAP versus is it the right move?"   John: Yeah. So 62, you're now eligible. Like you said, a lot of people are excited to finally get access to that extra income. You can start taking on Social Security.   John: Couple of things to just be aware of is, any time you take Social Security before your full retirement age, you will get a reduction of benefit. At 62, it's anywhere, depending on your full retirement age, roughly 25 to 30% reduction of what you would've gotten had you waited till 66 or 67.   Mark: They penalize you, basically.   John: Yeah.   Nick: Yeah. Actually, if you do the math, it ends up breaking down to almost a half a percent per month reduced.   Mark: Oh wow.   Nick: Yeah. It really starts to add up when you think about it that way.   John: Yeah. We always harp on planning, so important if you are thinking about taking it early, once you make that decision, and after a year of doing that, you're locked into that decision. So it's important to really understand is that best for your situation.   John: Other things to consider at this age, if you do take early, Social Security does have what they call a earnings penalty slash recapture. If you're still working and taking at 62, a portion of your Social Security could be subject to go back to them in lieu of, for a better term, [crosstalk 00:08:27]   Mark: It's 19,000 and some change, I think, this year, if you make more than that.   John: Yeah.   Mark: Yeah.   John: Yeah. Anything above 19,000 that you're earning, 50% goes back to Social Security. [crosstalk 00:08:36]   Mark: Yeah. For every two bucks you make-   John: 5,000 goes back to Social Security. So that's really important.   John: Something that I just want to make, last point on this, is that earnings threshold is based on someone's earned income, and it's based on their own earned income, not household. That comes up quite a bit, while people say, "Well, I want to retire and take at 62, but my husband's still working. Am I going to have a penalty if I take it?" The answer is no. It's based on your own earnings record.   Mark: That's where the strategy comes into play too. Because if you are married, then looking at who's making more, do we leave one person's to grow, as we're going to get into those in just a second, to grow towards that more full number.   Mark: Again, that's all the strategy. It may make sense for one person to turn it on early, and the other person to delay it. That's, again, part of the strategy of sitting down and talking with a professional, and looking at all the other assets that you have, and figuring out a good move there.   Mark: Nick, let's go to Medicare. 65 magic age.   Nick: Yeah. Actually, my dad turns 65 this year. So we've been planning this out for him. He is a retired fireman, so he has some benefits that tie in with his pension.   Nick: One of the things that came up, and just something that people should think about or remember, even if they are continuing to work past 65, is it oftentimes makes sense to at least enroll in Medicare Part A. You can usually enroll as early as three months before your birthday. The Medicare website has gotten a lot easier to work with over the last year or two.   Nick: Part A, the tricky thing is that you want to check with your employer, because usually what happens for the areas that Part A covers, which is usually hospital care, if you were to have to be admitted or certain procedures, it's figuring out who's the primary payer, who pays first, who pays second. So making sure that you coordinate your benefits. Check in with HR, if you're going to continue to work.   Nick: If you are retired and are coming up on that Medicare age, make sure that you get your ducks in a row so that you do enroll. Most likely you're going to start saving some money on some healthcare premiums.   Mark: Technically, this starts about, what, three months early? It's a little actually before 65. I think it's three months when you got to start this process, and three months before and after.   Nick: Yep. Yeah. You can typically enroll three months before your birthday, and then through three months afterwards. There can be some issues if you don't enroll and you don't have other healthcare, at least for Part A. There can be penalties and that sort of thing.   Nick: Frankly, with Medicare and healthcare in retirement, this is a space that we typically delegate out. We've got some good resources for clients that we refer them to, because there are a lot of moving parts, and it can be overwhelming, especially when you start to move into the supplements and Advantage plans, and all these different things.   Mark: Oh yeah. And it's crucial. You want to make sure you get it right. A lot of advisors will definitely work with some specialists, if you will, in that kind of arena. So definitely checking that out when we turn 65.   Mark: Again, some of these, pretty high level stuff, some of this stuff we definitely know. But we wanted to go over some of those more interesting caveats.   Mark: Let's keep moving along here, guys. Full retirement age, 66 or 67. John, just what? It's your birthday, right?   John: It is your birthday. That's the time that you can actually take your full Social Security benefit without any reduction, which is a great thing to do. Then also that earnings penalty we discussed earlier at age 62, that no longer exists. Once you hit your full retirement age, 66 or 67, you can earn as much as you want and collect your Social Security. There's no penalty slash recapture.   John: When that happens, people have some decisions to make. If they're still working, they can decide to take their Social Security. I've had some clients that take it, and they use that as vacation money. I've had some other ones take it, and they take advantage of maxing out their 401(k) with the extra income. Or you can delay it. You don't have to take it. You get 8% simple interest on your benefit up until age 70.   John: So full retirement age, you got a lot of big decisions to make, depending on your situation. But you want to make sure you're making the best for what you want.   Mark: Definitely.   Nick: Just as a reminder to people that that 8%, and you had mentioned it, but it does cap out at age 70. So there's no point in waiting past 70, because it doesn't increase any more.   Mark: Right. Thanks for doing that. It wasn't on my list, but I was going to bring it up real fast. So yeah. People will sometimes email and they'll say, "Hey, I want to keep working past 70. How's that affect Social Security." It's like, "Well, you're maxed out, so you got to just go ahead and get it done." You can still work if you're feeling like it. Your earnings potential is unlimited, but it's just a matter of you're not going to add any more to it. So I'm glad you brought that up.   Mark: John, you mentioned earlier, they got rid of the other half. Thank God. The 70 and a half thing, just because it was confusing as all get out. They moved it to 72.   Nick: Yeah. Required minimum distributions, as a reminder for people, are for accounts that are pre-tax, where you were able to defer taxation. 401(k), traditional IRA, that sort of thing. At 72, you have to start taking out minimum distributions. It starts at around 3.6, 3.7% of the balance. It's based on the prior year's ending balance. It has to be taken out by the end of the year.   Nick: An important thing for people to understand is that, many times, people are taking those withdrawals out to live on anyways. So for a lot of people, it's not an issue at all. However, there are a good amount of people that it's going to be excess income.   Nick: Earlier mentioned, hey, at age 50, really time to check in and start making sure that you're planning. One of the benefits of planning and looking forward is to project out and see, hey, are these withdrawal going to cause you to have excess income at 72, where maybe we're entering into a time that tax rates could be higher, tax rates could be going up, which is fairly likely in the next five to 10 years. So if we know and we can project that, then we can make some adjustments to how we save, should you be putting more money into a Roth versus a traditional, and how we make adjustments on the overall planning.   Nick: So making sure that you understand how those work, and then the impact that it has on other decisions to take into account for that situation, is a huge part of planning.   Mark: Definitely. Those are some important birthdays along the way. You got to make sure you get this stuff done. 72, there's the hefty penalties involved if you don't do that. Plus you still got to pay the taxes. All this stuff has some crucial moments in that retirement planning process, so definitely make sure that you are not only celebrating your birthday, but you're also doing the right things from that financial and that retirement planning standpoint along the way.   Mark: Again, if you got questions, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. You can drop us an email question as well, if you'd like. That's what we're going to do to wrap up the show right now.   Mark: We got a question that's sent in from Jack. He says, "Hey, guys. I've thought about meeting with a financial advisor to plan my retirement, but I've never used a budget or anything like that before. So I'm wondering, should I budget myself for a couple of months before I meet with a professional?"   Nick: Based upon experience, putting expense numbers down on paper is one of the biggest hurdles for people to get into planning. But with how this question is phrased, I would be concerned, because it's kind of like the situation of starting a diet. You start a diet. You're going to eat really good for two to three weeks. You're trying to hold yourself accountable. You're functioning in a way that isn't necessarily your normal life.   Nick: One of the things, as advisors, that we want to make sure that we understand are what are you really spending. It's great to use a budget, but if you're budgeting to try to look good in the meeting, which we've seen happen, you're painting a false picture, and you're not letting us know what the finances actually look like.   Nick: So I would actually say to put down the real expense numbers in place, let's see what it really looks like, and then if we need to create a budget after we've created a plan, then that's something that we can dig into.   Mark: Yeah. John, let me ask you, as we wrap this up, sometimes people associate seeing a professional financial advisor with a budget. Also, people have a cringe to the B word. They think, "Well, I don't want to live on a fixed budget," or something like that.   Mark: That's not necessarily what we're talking about, right? That's not probably what Jack is referring to. He's just trying to figure out, I guess, more income versus expenses, right?   John: Yeah, yeah. The first step is to analyze your expenses. That could be what he's referring to as far as, "Hey, should I take a look? Should I get my expenses down before I meet with someone?"   John: I'd agree with Nick, even if that's what you're looking at, versus the budgeting, I would say no. I think the first step is sit down with an advisor, because they can assist in categorizing the expenses correctly based on today's expenses, versus what expenses are going to be at retirement.   John: I think it's important just to get going rather than trying to prep. Because we've seen a lot of people that have taken ... They've been prepping for years to meet. That's years where they haven't done anything, and they've, unfortunately, lost out on some good opportunities, otherwise, if they just said, "Hey, I'm going to sit down first, see what's going on."   Mark: Yeah. It gives you that built-in excuse.   John: [crosstalk 00:18:26]   Mark: It gives you that built in, "Well, I'm not quite ready." Well, you might never be ready if you play that game. Especially a lot of times when it's complimentary to sit down with professionals, have a conversation. Most advisors will talk to you, no cost or obligations. So why not right? Find out. Just get the ball rolling. That's the first step. It's usually the hardest part too.   Nick: Yeah. One thing that we typically tell people is that we are not the money police. We are not here to tell you that you can't use your money the way that you want to use it.   Nick: The way that we view ourselves, and what our role is as an advisor, is to help you understand the impact of decisions. Whether those decisions have to do with spending money, saving money, whatever, it's to make sure that you understand the impact of your decisions so that you make better decisions. That's it.   Mark: There you go. Yeah. It's your money, at the end of the day, your call, but certainly having some good, well, coaches in your corner, if you will, advisors to help advise, that's the whole point. But I like that. Not the money police.   Mark: All right. That's going to do it this week, guys. Thanks for hanging out. As always, we appreciate your time here on Retirement Planning Redefined. Don't forget. Stop by the website.   Mark: If you need help before you take any action, we always talk in generalities, and try to share some good nuggets of information, but you always want to see how those things are going to affect your specific situation.   Mark: If you're already working with John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth, fantastic. Then you already have a lot of this stuff in place. But if you have questions, or you're not working with them, or you've come across this podcast in whatever way, or maybe a friend shared it with you, definitely reach out and have a chat. pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcasting platform app you like to use.   Mark: We'll see you next time here on the show. For John and Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you later here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

There are certain things in life we just can't predict. If we knew the answers to some of these questions, planning for retirement would sure be a lot easier. So let's see how you go about constructing a plan that addresses the kinds of questions to which you can't possibly know the answers. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome into another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's p-f-g-private wealth.com, where you can check out a lot of good tools, tips, and resources, schedule some time with the team or subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you like to use. And on the podcast us this week, we're going to talk about planning for things that we cannot predict. There's many things in life that are just out of our control, and we can't predict. Yet, we somehow have to figure out a way to bring these things into the fold when it comes to our retirement strategies. And if we knew the answers, these things would be a lot easier to do, right? Just like saying, if we knew when we were going to pass away, you guys could build the greatest plan anybody's ever seen, but we don't come with a timestamp on us. So we have to figure out a way around some of these complicated questions and construct a plan that handles these, but also works with the unknown. So we'll get into that in just a second, but what's going on, Nick? How are you doing?   Nick: Doing pretty good. Thanks.   Speaker 1: Yeah, how's the old puppy doing? I've got mine next to me right now while we're taping.   Nick: Unfortunately she passed like a month ago.   Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry, buddy. I didn't mean to do that.   Nick: It's all right. Oh yeah, no, I don't take it like that. I was going to say something earlier and then I just kinda left it, but yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy month.   Speaker 1: I gotcha. I'm sorry to hear about that. It's always rough when we lose our little furry friends there as well, but hopefully things will get better for you. And we'll talk about something, you can't predict that kind of stuff. Right? We'll get into that kind of conversation here in a second. John, what's going on with you?   John: Today's topic is pretty fitting. I couldn't predict that the house I bought had a loose AC drain and currently all the floors in my master bedroom and hallway ripped up. It's going well, as well as can be. So we're adapting to the renovations in our house currently. I just send Nick some pictures of it and he's like, whoa.   Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Well, I put my foot in my mouth already to start the show, so we'll get into it. But I guess that fits really well though with the over conversation is, because there's a lot of things. I mean, life is unpredictable, right? Murphy's law, whatever you want to subscribe to. And so we still have to somehow plan for some things, look at the state of the world, right? Who would've predicted 7.9% inflation rate, who would've predicted. What we're seeing in the Ukraine and so on and so forth. So it all affects the financial side. So we'll turn our attention there as we typically do. And a lot of times guys with what you do for a living, I imagine, and I talk to advisors all across the country when they meet people that do what you guys do for the first time, almost inevitably somebody goes, Hey, so when's the next market crash, right? They kind of like you guys, somehow some know this magical information that when the next it crash is going to be, well, you can't predict for that, John, but you still got to plan for being able to retire in any economy regardless of what the market's doing.   John: Yeah. And this point I'm going to say, probably goes for all of these things we're discussing today. Is you really want the flexibility to adapt for any, I don't say any, a lot of situations that come up in retirement and one of those are, a market pullback or a crash, so things to put yourself in a pretty good position is, we kind of stress this, is having a decent cash savings. So if the market is crashing, you can rely on your cash savings for income during that period of time. So you don't sell any of your losers and realize those losses. So there's a lot of things you can, you can't predict it, but you could definitely set yourself up in a situation where you can adapt to it, to put yourself in a good situation moving forward.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And as I mentioned on the last podcast, we were talking about the fact that we were dealing with overconfidence as one of the money biases. And the last several years, it's been easy to get confident in the market, but when we start to see these downturns or corrections, like we're going through right now, people get nervous and they tend to do the wrong thing. So you can't predict when it's going to happen, but you want to make sure that you're setting yourself up in a way to work through that. And Nick, similarly, we could talk about healthcare costs, right? I mean, who knows what they're going to look like in 20 years? Now a good bet is probably that they're going up more than likely, right? Unlike the market crash, where there is some historical data, I mean, healthcare costs, the reality is we're living longer. So more than likely these costs are going up, but how can you plan for that? If you don't really know, you just have to start, kind of chipping away at this. Maybe.   Nick: Yeah. It's interesting because this is one thing that we can probably lock in that it will go up and will continue to go up. But from a practical sense, in a practical standpoint, the things that we can do are from a planning perspective, make sure that when we're planning for them, for these healthcare related expenses that we understand what's involved. So as an example, a lot of people think about, well, Hey, I know that my healthcare expenses are going to get higher later on down the road, but many times they don't understand. And when we see this all the time that even their cost for Medicare, when they switch to Medicare in retirement, there's a decent chance it's going to cost more than what they're currently paying for their health benefits through their work.   Nick: And because a lot of people have that concept that it goes down versus most likely going up from a premium perspective for a lot of people. Using a higher inflation number for those healthcare premiums and healthcare related expenses, which is something that we make sure that we do with clients where we'll use a three and a half to 4% inflation number on healthcare related expenses in the plan, which tends to be, one to two points higher than the rest of the categories in for inflation.   Nick: So, things like that where we can't predict it, but at least from a modeling standpoint, we can kind of, use a prudent person rule of, making sure that we at least model those things to be a little bit higher and faster, increasing costs, especially when we look at how those plans are being financed by the government, which is not great.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's a great point because even in normal inflationary times, right? What is it the two industries that outpace even regular inflation on the regular is college tuition, right? And healthcare. So while college tuition may not be affecting as many of retirees or as maybe pre-retirees the healthcare certainly is going to affect them. So you got to take that into account and definitely start strategizing for those healthcare costs. Putting your head in the sand is not going to help you out 20 years later when you need it. And John, you could kind of make that same argument really about the tax rates. Right? The Smart bet, the money is probably on the fact that yeah, they're going up, but God willing, you're going to live through multiple administrations in retirement. So, to say, well, what are tax rates going to look like three presidents from now who knows, right? Administrations are going to do what they got to do.   John: Yeah. And that's where, again, it's important to flexibility to adapt to the situation and how you get flexible is diversifying your assets from a tax standpoint. So, and you might want to look at, increasing your Roth contributions, if you have a Roth 401k at work or eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA. So that could be a really good strategy. So that way, if tax rates are up, when you're taking your income, you could say, Hey, you know what, I'm going to take some of my tax free income this year or for these next couple of years. And you can really adjust to that situation. And not just only with Roths, but you could go outside of retirement accounts and kind of deal with capital gains. But then you got the same issue there with what are the rates going to be?   John: What Nick and I have been seeing quite a bit lately is clients really over funding their HSAs and not using them, just letting them build up for retirement. Cause that would be a nice tax free distribution, if qualified for healthcare costs, which also piggybacks what Nick was talking about. About healthcare costs, not knowing what they're going to be. So there are definitely different things you can do to allow yourself some flexibility. And one thing that we typically do when we're doing planning is we do stress test these things for certain clients. Where we'll look at some kind of market pull backs. How does your plan look like if there's a 20% pull back? What if healthcare costs go up? What if inflation goes up? So there's definitely things you can do to prepare.   Speaker 1: Now. Those are some great points right there because we, again, we don't know what's going to happen. The smart money is taxes are probably going up, we've got 30 trillion dollars in debt. There's almost 40 plus trillion dollars in retirement money sitting out there, the taxes haven't been collected on. So if that doesn't have a bullseye on it, you're probably kidding yourself. So trying to be as tax efficient as we can today could be beneficial. Because again, we have no idea what it would look like three presidencies from now.   Speaker 1: So these are, again, things we cannot predict, but we certainly got to still plan for some of the options that are out there. And Nick, I joked earlier that if we had an expiration date stamped on us, like a gallon of milk, you guys could build the greatest, retirement plan for each individual that they've ever seen, but we have no idea how long we're going to live. And I could use my own self as an example for the listeners. My brother died at 50, I'm 50. My brother died at 57, my father at 63, my grandfather at 60, be easy for me to say, Hey, I'm going to spend all my money between now and the age of 65, because I'm not going to be here. So I'm going to party. But yet that's not responsible, because what if I'm wrong? Technology has changed. And of course, what am I doing to my spouse?   Nick: Yeah, this is always an interesting one. It's probably the source of the most quote unquote jokes from people. Whether it's clients or people that attend our classes, that sort of thing. And really from a practical sense where this comes in is, how long do we plan for? So when we're building a plan 99% of the time, we plan to age 100. And when we plan to age 100 for clients, we can see what, how much money's there at age 85 and age 90 and all those sorts of things. And the thought process is that if the plan works until age 100, then the probability of it being successful up into, 80, 85, etcetera, is much higher. And the plan, what it will also help us do is for those people that do want to make sure that they spend their time early on in retirement, really doing the things that they want to do, no matter how much bluster there can be about, because again, usually it's some sort of internal insecurity or internal bias that has them talking about passing away early.   Nick: But sometimes what we found is that, really they're just saying that because they don't want to deal with the concern of running out of money. It's almost in a weird sense, comforting that, Hey, if I pass away early, then I don't have to worry about money. This planning thing isn't important. I don't have to stress about it. No big deal. So in actuality, when you go through the planning process and you do see where you sit and you do see, Hey, maybe I can do the things that I want to do and I can still, make sure that there's money down the road for a spouse, all these sorts of things. It actually really kind of tick up the confidence and they will enjoy those things much more than having that uncertainty because, and I've seen it across the board because what ends up happening. I mean, and again, just seeing it being in this business, people that had that thought process 60 today, used to feel like 50 70 today feels like it. when people were 60, 15 years ago, nobody realizes how old they are, or they have this perception of that they're going to feel a certain way. And usually that's not the case. So, planning for all scenarios is really important.   Speaker 1: No, definitely. I mean, my mom's always joking. She's 80 and she's forever saying, I don't feel it. when I, if I'm not moving or if I'm not doing anything, I don't feel like I'm 80. She's like in my mind I still feel like I'm 30 or 40. She's like until I look in the mirror or I try to move a certain way.   Nick: Yeah. And unfortunately I had to go up to New York for a funeral this past month and my dad and I flew up and we walked into the room with some family members and stuff like that. And after the initial reminder that we're no longer in the south due to how loud it was and all of the swearing. Somebody said something about because that side of the family, I was always one of the younger and I'm like, how old are you going to be? And I was like, I'm going to be 40 this year. And everyone looked and they're like, and I was like, you know what? That means you guys are really old now. So, again, it's that whole concept of people just don't realize it. And the concept when you're younger of what you're going to feel like or what it's going to feel like when you're older, it never tends to be that way. So it's important to really plan.   Speaker 1: Yeah. It definitely. So you got to plan for these things, even though we can't predict them, how long we're going to be around tax rates, healthcare costs, market crashes, whatever the case is, these things are again, probably going to happen throughout your retirement. And if you have a nice long retirement, which you certainly hope that you do, you might be retired 20, 25, 30 years. You're going to experience multiple things with some of this stuff that you can't necessarily predict for, but you still have to strategize to hopefully have the retirement that you want in any economy and any circumstance. So that's where planning comes into place. And that's what you got to reach out to the guys for here on Retirement Planning, Redefined with John and Nick at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's where you can find them online, pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to us on whatever platform you like to use. Apple, Google, Spotify, so on and so forth. And we'll be back with more episodes coming up in a couple of weeks. Nick, thanks for hanging out as always. John Good luck with those floors, man.   John: Thanks. I definitely need and appreciate it.   Speaker 1: Absolutely. Nick, we'll see you next time here on the podcast. This has been Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

On this episode, we'll breakdown a recent CNBC article that analyzes a recent Morningstar study. The study found that most of us have at least one money bias, some of us more than one, and that those biases are very possibly costing us money in our checking, savings, investing and retirement accounts. Listen to see if you might be impacted by a specific money bias and for strategies to get it back under control. Helpful Information: CNBC Article: https://cnb.cx/3KKXSHf PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. It's another addition of Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. We got to fun and interesting podcast this week to talk about, money biases and what those are, and are they costing you a little bit? If you have a money bias and you're going to be probably surprised to find out that you indeed do most people, I think do have biases about a lot of things. So, that's going to be on the podcast this go around. And of course, if you've got questions you need some help, always reach out to theguys@pfgprivatewealth.com. That's p-f-g, private wealth.com. John, what's going on, buddy? How you doing?   John: Hey, doing good. How are you?   Mark: Hanging in there. Doing pretty well. We were chatting a little bit off air and just talking about life, moaning and groaning a little bit, but overall you're doing okay? Hanging in there?   John: Yeah. Yeah. We, we just wrapped up a golf tournament that we hosted with Bern's Steakhouse. It's our second one.   Mark: Nice.   John: Yeah. Finalizing the numbers, but looking like a pretty decent donation to a couple of local Tampa charities here, which are Blue Star Families and then Jackson In Action, 83 Foundation, both a military base. So, so we're excited. It was a great event and we look forward to delivering the check soon.   Mark: That's fantastic. Awesome. Nick, how you doing my friend?   Nick: Doing pretty good. It's been a little bit of a crazy month, but have some vacation coming up, which will be nice, although I'm going to Key West and it'll be my first time going there, so...   Mark: Okay.   Nick: I'm looking forward to seeing what that's like.   Mark: Well, I don't know how you're getting there, but I filled up my truck yesterday and it cost me triple digits for the first time. It was over a hundred bucks.   Nick: Yeah. Luckily I'm flying. So...   Mark: All right.   Nick: We're good to go.   Mark: Well, the inflation numbers came in for February 7.9%. I don't know if you guys saw that at the time we're taping that they just came out this morning, so yay. Right? So people are definitely frustrated and we're kind of concerned. There's a lot going on, obviously the stuff in the world and the market's been reacting to that inflation is up. And so I thought it would be interesting to kind of have this chat. And we were talking about these money biases and how we feel about some of the different things. And I thought maybe it'd be a good idea to share some of this stuff with the listeners. So what we'll do is we'll also put a link to the article. This was a CNBC article guys, that was based off a Morningstar study. And I'll let you guys talk about Morningstar if you'd like to, just to explain that to the folks in a second.   Mark: But the study found that most of us have at least one money bias, some of us more than others, and that biases are very possibly costing us additional money in our checking, savings, or investing in retirement accounts. So, we'll see how this kind of impacts you and you'll kind of learn a little bit about this along the way. So a couple of key points before we dive in is that everybody has different attitudes about money. No real shock there, right? We know that, but that new behavioral financial study from Morningstar found that 98% of the respondents exhibited one or more. So when we say just about everybody has one, that's pretty true and that they are likely costing them some money. So we'll jump right in and get going here and with take away number one. Nick, what are the four main biases that they talked about and that you guys see?   Nick: Yeah, we really wanted to kind of focus on this with this chaotic as the beginning of the year has been. we think that people taking a little self inventory on, on how they might make some decisions would be beneficial. So right. The first bias is called a present bias or really kind of like present time. So really what this focus is on is kind of the tendency to go for immediate rewards over long term goals, or, the good old instant gratification. I would say that, what's interesting is, this can definitely be different for different age bands. So for people that, kind of like in that baby boomer era, they have their toes in this, for sure, whereas younger clients definitely. I would say it's a little bit more dominant just because of the things that they're used to and convenience and instant gratification.   Mark: Sure. The world we have. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah, for sure. And I think this is something that's real important because this become a stronger and stronger bias just with things that we're used to like news cycles and stuff like that. So, so that's, that's the first one.   Mark: Well, let, let me ask you a follow up on that real quick, Nick, before you move on. So with that present bias basically like it's that idea of, I feel like I need to do something now. Right? So like we'll use the market falling as an example. Right this minute we're down about 10% I think in the S&P or into a correction, I guess officially. So I must... I must need to do something now, so I can see the response, the immediate response. That way I feel like I've done something that's really what a present bias is.   Nick: Yep. Very much reactionary.   Mark: Okay.   Nick: Typically, and usually for most people, taking action at something like this, it's oftentimes too late. So that can really turn into this kind of yo-yo effect of, waiting where this is one of the things that lead people to buy high in sell low, which is kind of the opposite.   Mark: Which is the wrong. Yeah. Okay.   Nick: Yeah.   Mark: So that's the first one.   Nick: Yep. And then second one, is what's called base rate neglect. So really what happens is, this is kind of focused on how you judge the probability of something happening based upon new information, while you essentially ignore your original assumptions. So this is something where, for example, the whole concept of best laid plans. So this is where planning can really come into play, where might get a call from a client that, maybe it's a certain sector of the market. Hey, I want, I really want to jump into this certain sector of the market and they're not taking into consideration that maybe they already have exposure to that.   Nick: Or again, maybe it's a little bit too late and they're forgetting all of the effort and all the time that has been put into kind of creating the overall plan and then overreacting to good or bad news. And, this is definitely something like, for example, for myself, right. That I have to have, people remind me, I know that this is something that happens to me where it's like, because I do try to consume a lot of information and process, a lot of information and news where, dependent upon what's going on. This can kind of throw me a little bit for it.   Mark: I gotcha. So let, let me, John, let me of get you in here on this for a quick second. So for example, what I'm hearing then, so the NASDAQ for example, is technically into bear territory now, cause it's down 20 plus percent. So people calling up and saying, Hey, I need to get out of tech might be an example of this base rate neglect because they're seeing the current situation and they're reacting to the news versus does it make sense for their overall long term strategy?   John: Yeah. A hundred percent. It's the whole, kind of going into behavioral finance where it's, you're selling out when, when you shouldn't be, in reality, now's the time you know, if, as Nick mentioned, it's probably too late at this point.   Mark: Sure. Right.   John: It may be best just to stay of the course and stay in it, but a hundred percent that's kind of what we typically see.   Mark: Okay. All right. Go ahead Nick, what the third one for us?   Nick: Sure. So third one is overconfidence. This is an interesting one. Also, one that I know that I have a bias, where it's the whole concept of putting too much weight in your own abilities to make good financial decisions.   Mark: Sure. Yeah.   Nick: So, another way to think about this can be, is wanting to be right. And we tend to all want to be right. But then sometimes we will, double down or not take into consideration a concept of like a sunk cost where Hey, we're not always going to be right. And sometimes it's okay to make mistakes. You just want to learn from that. Oh definitely. And not double down, triple down, that sort of thing. So understanding that there's law of large numbers and there's efficiencies in different areas of the market and or planning. So being over confident, and again, this is something where if you look at the pie, you want to have your plan, your investment strategy, all that you want that pie to be, around 90% or so of the very strong part of your fundamental long term plan.   Nick: So sometimes having some of these biases on a small portion will help you really learn, usually people don't, they try to do it on a much larger portion. So that's a little bit of a takeaway too, is in moderation. Some of these things can be good because there are places where you can have a lot of upside that if you do it with the right amount of money and you take a little bit of risk with a smaller amount of money can help you kind of work through some of these biases without over overacting over correcting.   Mark: Oh, definitely. And if you think about the overconfidence bias here, Nick, I mean, we've basically been on a 12 year run, 12 plus year run with the market. So everybody's been feeling pretty confident. I mean, 1920 and 21 all finished up with double digit years.   Nick: Right.   Mark: So it's easy to feel confident when, when everything's going up, everybody's a genius, right?   Nick: Oh yeah.   Mark: So it's when it's going down that you start to get a little more concerned and maybe that overconfidence comes into play. And since we mentioned down, go ahead and go to the fourth one, which is the final one.   Nick: Sure. So the fourth one is going to be loss aversion. So a classic case of this is, because there's different types of risk as well. And one of the risks that we talk about sometimes are inflationary risks, which we're seeing now. So in other words, for people that might be way too heavy in cash over prolonged period of time, or they're afraid to take any sort of risk, they don't necessarily think about the trade off. So they, again, this is the concept of having a plan and having balanced, not only in your investments, but in your strategies and your overall planning is really important because as we see, sometimes people's thought processes, well, hey cash, if I'm in cash, it's okay. I just don't want to lose my money while, in times of massive inflation or just compared to other areas of the market, there can be significant downside to, the concept of what some people may think is no risk can actually have quite a bit.   Mark: Okay. So those are the four biases then. So you've got the present bias, the base rate neglect of the overconfidence bias and the loss aversion. So John here's the interesting part to me about this whole thing is take away number two, is that 98% of people are exhibiting at least one of these, what they found was the lower, the level of bias, the better your overall financial health. So if you only have one let's say of these four, then you're probably in better shape than someone that has two, which again, it kind of makes perfect sense, but there was some interesting statistics and information in this. So why don't you talk to me a little bit about that?   John: Yeah, yeah. That is pretty interesting. Basically the lower level of bias you have, the better financial health you end up having. And it's one of the ones here is like the present bias where basically research showed, if you have a low level of present bias, you were three times as likely to spend less than the money you that you make. So basically you're going to be saving more money. So again, it's kind of... You kind of look at this in life. You don't have that instant gratification. You're kind of looking at the long term of, Hey, I don't need this today. You know, if you go to the store and buy something, do I really need that now? No, I don't. I can hold off on it. You know, just making better financial decisions all around when you kind of break it down. Another one that was interesting with, with that, with the present bias was there's seven times more likely to plan for the future.   Mark: Yeah.   John: So, so I get... [crosstalk 00:11:36] go ahead.   Mark: I was trying to say, so what I'm hearing there is then, is if they don't re... If you don't react, if you don't give into the instant gratification bias, you typically were a better saver. Sounds like.   John: Better saver, better planner, just not reactionary to what's going on. So it's really the long term goal seems to be in mind with these type of people.   Mark: Seven times more likely. That's pretty good.   John: Yeah. It makes me think I need to... I need to be a little less into gratification for myself.   Mark: There you go.   John: You know, it's, I'm getting off topic here, but it's funny. I was talking to my wife the other day with, we got Disney plus for the kids.   Mark: Sure.   John: And it's like, oh, I want to watch this. And I started thinking, I'm like, man, I just remember just sitting there looking at the guide until, a TV show would finally pop on or a move I wanted to watch because you couldn't watch things right away. You back in the late eighties.   Mark: And in those places, it's great. Right. We enjoy that kind of stuff. But then what happens to this kind of this point is next thing you know, you've got 12 subscription services and you're not using them all. So yeah.   John: Yeah. So anyhow, starting off on a tangent.   Mark: No, you're fine.   John: But yeah, another one would be, overconfidence, lower level bias there. They found that people would have basically more savings. So again, back when Nick was staying with overconfidence in and I fall into this quite a bit, it's like, ah I have some time I can build that up or whatever. And I've seen this quite a bit with some retirees. So, if you're not over, you tend to save a little bit more and last one is the loss aversion of having lower 401k balance, the less bias you have towards that, the more apt you are to take a little more risk and save more into your 401k. And just as Nick mentioned here, not sit in cash and try to outpace inflation.   Mark: I gotcha. So yeah, if you, if you're a bit more overconfident, you feel like you can kind of well, I'll take some chances, right. Because I can get it back. So therefore I can build that savings back up or whatever the case is. So really interesting takeaways from that standpoint, when you think about it, because we all fall into one of these, whatever it might be. And so the lower level of money bias, typically the better financial health. Nick, so talk to me about some of the solutions Morningstar offered because they called it build a money life that fits your priorities, which makes a lot of sense for what you guys do as advisors to kind of find that right mold or fit for the individual.   Nick: Yeah. So it's pretty interesting in... We joke a decent amount of time with clients and among each other that, our business is probably 20 to 30% finance and 70 to 80% therapist. And really it's helping people with these sorts of things. So some of the things they talked about as far as what they call building a money life is kind of put some speed bumps or have a process in place for your decision making. So, one of the things that we try to get our clients to do as an example is that we have the... Because we are a planning focus firm and we use planning tools and software to help people model out different scenarios, we try to get them to start thinking through that realm because a lot... People have often like the quite, well, what about this?   Nick: Or what about that? Or should you know, one of the most common is, do I put extra money towards the mortgage or do I save some money? And the answer for everybody is different based upon what they've done up until that point. And so, for those that work with us, what we try to get them to do for those speed bumps is to say, number one, number two; number one, if there's something that you're concerned about, walk us through, what is the scenario that you're concerned about? So for example, if you're concerned about, the cost of fuel, cost of inflation, those sorts of things, in what way are you concerned about how that applies to you specifically? So not just the world and everybody on the news and all that kind of stuff, but how does it involve you specifically?   Nick: And so, okay. So, sometimes what people realize is that it's not going to impact their life in a dramatic way. It could have some sort of impact on, the economy and those sorts of things. But most of the times it's not going to have a massive impact on their life. And then we take it. So maybe, we figure that it could have some sort of impact. So then we can kind of go to the planning software and kind of model it and say, okay, well, if these things happen, let's take a look and see what it looks like. And okay, so now that you see what it looks like, here are some of the decisions that you can make to bring that sort of risk down and have a little bit of clarity. And then we can go ahead and try to implement those decisions.   Nick: So instead of just these open-ended concerns of things that are not in anybody's control, let's look at the things that we do have in control. And those decisions that we can make to impact and make it easier. And kind of referring back to what we talked about earlier, where that kind of high level of base rate, and then the overconfidence for lower savings and checking, sometimes what ends up happening is that, and we try to remind people of this is, having a solid base of savings, cash savings is your permission slip for a lot of different things. So when people look at and realize like, Hey, that this is... These are exactly the times that we emphasize having this cash handy because we can deal with these fluctuations in the market. We don't have to make irrational decisions because you've built this buffer and you've given yourself this permission slip to deal with these different sorts of circumstances.   Mark: That's a great point. Yeah.   Nick: Yeah. So that can be interesting. And then if, you're doing it on your own, maybe making some sort of process where, hey, you've got a couple of rules that you take into consideration where once you get to certain gains on an underlying investment, you're okay selling, or you sell with half and maybe you let the rest of it ride. Or you just kind of give yourself a buffer time. You know, sometimes people will joke that they have rules for emails, like when they're mad. So, give it an overnight, you're ready to fire off an email, maybe it's to a coworker it's to a family member, whatever.   Mark: Right. Yeah.   Nick: Or text message.   Mark: Wait till you cool down.   Nick: Yeah, wait to cool down. And, or maybe haven't had an adult beverage and give it a little bit of time because oftentimes, when we sit on it, we see that maybe even though we didn't think we were, maybe we were a little over confident in what our thought process was previously.   Mark: So yeah. I like that idea, John, what do you think? Like one of the things they had on there, and I think this is a good idea was the whole, wait three days to make an important decision. I'll use an exam... I mean, you've got the little ones there. That's great advice to try to, raise kids on as well. My dad used to do that with me. Hey man, if it's a good idea, on Monday, it's still going to be a good idea on Friday. Right. But if something changed or you don't feel like it's a good idea, then it's good that you waited before you took action. I've been thinking about buying a muscle car here recently. And of course, gas prices have got me second guessing that. So I went and looked at one last Friday and I still haven't made a decision because I wanted to take that time to make sure I was making that right choice. Right. Don't... That's that instant gratification, I guess, take a few days... [crosstalk 00:18:48]   John: [crosstalk 00:18:48] A hundred percent.   Nick: [crosstalk 00:18:49] Or you might be getting a really good price right now. I mean...   Mark: Well, that's true too, but.   Nick: So if you really want it...   Mark: What do you think, John?   John: I think it's always best to wait a couple of days to see if that's something you really want. I think, like you said there, it's going to be there, and the price could jump up in three days in this environment. But I think it's always best kind of way it a little bit before you make financial decisions. So you ultimately feel comfortable with decisions that you made. That it wasn't kind of an impulse buy or decision...   Mark: Right. [crosstalk 00:19:20].   John: That could affect the rest of your life.   Mark: So, well, the speed bump idea was really good, right? The Morningstar, they called it speed bumps to place your... Slow down your decision making as Nick alluded to. And if you think about the stock market, right, they've got those circuit breakers in place. We saw that with COVID right. When the circuit breakers would kick in to prevent any more trading because it was falling so fast. So if you want to kind of use that same analogy, have some speed bumps or some circuit breakers in place for your decision making process. So lots of different ways we can look at it.   John: Yeah, another one in the article I was reading through is really, and it goes back to what we're saying here, and what we always say is having a plan, a sense of direction and to tune out the news and really stop taking advice from your friends where it's basically, "hey, I did this", or "I'm buying this." And especially with, we don't advise on crypto, but you know, "I'm buying some crypto" and stuff like that. It's really, have your plan and stick to what your plan is for versus listening to what other people are doing. That was also in the article, which I thought was an interesting point.   Mark: Yeah. Very good points. Well, I tell you what, like I said, we're going to link this into the, to the show notes and information there. So if you'd like to check that out, you can. And as always, if you've got some questions, we'll wrap this up this week about a money bias, your own money bias, which one you may be affected by. You should be able to tell if you suffer from the present bias that give me now thing, that base rate and neglect where you just react to the news, the overconfidence of feeling like you've got it all figured out, you've mastered it all. Or maybe just the loss of version where that fear of losing money, just really kind of cripples you either way, it could be costing you money. So reach out to the guys, if you've got questions on how to control this.   Mark: And I think that's some of the value that an advisor brings to the table is they're not going to have those biases about your portfolio plan because it's not their money, right? So they're there to help guide you and be that sounding board and be that coach. So reach out to John and Nick, if you some questions at PFGprivatewealth.com, that's PFGprivatewealth.com. Before you take any action, you should always check with a qualified professional, like the guys, they are financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth. Don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Spotify, or whatever platform you'd like to listen to. And if you'd like to learn more about some of those charities that they were... John was talking about earlier in the show, or maybe attend the next time they do one of those events, again, reach out to them at PFG Private Wealth. For John and Nick, I'm Mark, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next time here on the podcast, Retirement Planning - Redefined.

Droves of workers are retiring early or taking a break from work as they change career paths. It's become known as The Great Resignation. On this episode, we'll highlight some of the key takeaways of a recent Forbes article and explore a lot of the impacts on retirement planning from across different age groups in the wake of this massive workplace shift that's underway. Forbes Article: https://bit.ly/3JtbbeQ Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody, welcome in to the podcast. Thanks for tuning in to another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick, as we talk investing, finance, and retirement. And we are going to discuss the Great Resignation on this podcast. And if you're not familiar with that, well, that's been all the mass exodus of people leaving work over the last three to four to five months. And we've got some interesting key takeaways here to talk a little bit about this. Droves of workers retiring early, or taking a break as they consider this career path, that's been called now the Great Resignation, and there's a Forbes article, we'll probably take a link and put that in the show notes as well. But guys, what's going on? How you doing Nick?   Nick: Good, good. Staying busy, kind of getting rocking and rolling to start off the new year. So, you know, I think a month or two ago we had hoped that maybe it'd be a little less chaotic from the standpoint of the whole pandemic thing, but I think everybody's just kind of plugging away and recovering from the holidays.   Mark: Yeah, definitely. John, how you doing my friend?   John: I'm good. I'm good. Doing good.   Mark: Yeah. Nothing, nothing too crazy going on. Into the new year all right?   John: Yeah. Yeah, it was quiet. So just hung out with family locally here and in Tampa area. So it was just a nice little break and like Nick said kind of excited to be back to doing some work here and the holidays it's always nice, but at the same time, I'm kind of ready to get back at it.   Mark: Yeah, exactly. So have you guys heard this term, the Great Resignation, are you guys a little bit aware of this and what's your thoughts? We'll get into it here, some data here in just a second, but just have curious if you've heard it or not.   Nick: Yeah, I definitely have. I think it's interesting. I think depending upon who you talk to, their interpretation of it is a little bit different, but in my mind it's really, it's kind of, to kind of think about it from the perspective as almost like a real estate market, there's a buyer's market and there's a seller's market. And I think that really what's happened is not all, but many companies have been slow to kind of improve wages and pay and benefits and things like that and so this has kind of put things into kind of the worker's hands a little bit more and given them a little bit of leverage from the perspective of competitiveness from a company standpoint. And that obviously, that doesn't deal with the people that are in between or are waiting to kind of figure out what they want to do with their whole life, that sort of thing, but more specifically, the people changing jobs and how difficult it's been for employers to keep employees.   Mark: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely all over the map and John, we're going to talk a little bit about it from the different age groups, but for the most part, we're going to look at it as it affects retirees and pre-retirees, but have you seen some of this stuff? Are you familiar with it?   John: Not necessarily the term itself, but yeah, we've seen a lot of this with our own clients that are basically doing some job changes or just outright, just retiring early which I know we're going to get into. But yeah, we're seeing quite a bit of this. And then we see it when we're trying to personally and work wise trying to get service work done. It feels like-   Mark: Big time.   John: Feels like no one's working anymore. My local Dunkin' Donuts here, I can't go in to get a coffee because they don't have enough workers, so everything's drive through. But it just [crosstalk 00:03:23] seen across the board.   Mark: And that's part of it. Yeah. And that's part of it. So a lot of times, I think, when we think about this what's happened in the pandemic, we automatically go to the lower paying scale jobs, the fast food type jobs, and that's definitely a big piece, but for an example, 4.2 million people quit their job in October of 2021. So just a couple of months ago and there's been a lot of other people quitting. So there's been, I think somewhere now around six, six and a half million, I think over the last four to four and a half months. And it's not just the lower end stuff. And of course it's also unknown how long these people will stay out of work. Some of it could be retirees or pre-retirees that are just like, you know what, I'm not going back.   Mark: I'll use my brother as an example, he's 63 and he's like, as long as they keep me working from home, I'm going to stay. But the minute they tell me, I have to go back to the office. I think I'm going to pull the trigger and retire early, even though his plan calls for him to wait till 60, his full retirement age, which I think is 66 and seven months or something like that. So let's talk about it from that's kind of standpoint, guys.   Mark: I've got three takeaway categories here, or actually four. I'm going to kind of give you guys the headline and let you guys roll from there a little bit on this. Okay. So we'll dive into it, hit it however you'd like, not just the lower income scale, but also the upper end, or people just closer to retirement things that you might be seeing or hearing. So number one, if you are going to step away early, taking a break from Social Security, whether it's short term, long term or whatever, don't sell short that, the impact that, that can have to your long term benefits.   Nick: So, depending upon how long you are out of work, it's important to keep into consideration that when you're not earning an income, you're not building up your Social Security credits and so that's something that can impact you down the line. And I've actually had this come up a little bit lately where people don't quite grasp the impact, the positive impact of Social Security, or how much, or how important it is to their overall plan. So it is a big deal and you want to make sure you still have your 10 year minimum work history. It's important to remember that, really the benefit that you receive is a cumulative kind of record of your highest 35 years of income.   Mark: Right.   Nick: So every year that you have a higher year than a previous year, adjusted for inflation, that's going to knock out the other years and you really kind of help bump that benefit up.   Mark: Right. And if you're stepping away in your fifties because of this Great Resignation type of thing here, that's some prime earning years. So that's where I say you could be putting a big dent in that.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely. And realistically it always does kind of go back to the whole plan concept of that we really try to harp on people about, is we have had some people retire early because we have had a bull market for the last 10 years and they've done a good job with saving and those sorts of things, but we kind of verified it through the planning, the whole retire really early on a whim or not really looking at it from an analytical standpoint can definitely be pretty, pretty dangerous.   Mark: Yeah, for sure. So you definitely want to make sure that if you are stepping away from Social Security, you're looking at what it could do to your long term strategy, six months, a year, retiring early, whatever the case might be. Just make sure you're strategizing that with your advisor.   Mark: John, talk to me a little bit about takeaway number two, the 401k isn't a rainy day fund, is kind of the category I had. Because over the last two years, and even the last six months, there's some pretty interesting stats about what people are doing with their 401ks.   John: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, during COVID 2020, there was some ability to actually access for 401k funds or retirement funds without any penalty.   Mark: Right.   John: And not even have to do a loan and that's gone away. So now, not that... Fortunately for our clients, and I think we do a great job educating them, we haven't really seen too much of this where clients are taking out 401k loans. But I have had conversations with some individuals that have done that. And it's just kind of like, "Hey, how much can I pull from my fund? I did this, what are the impacts of it?" So it's just important to fall back to the plan. And we do a... One of our biggest recommendation's to make sure that people have an emergency fund and whether it's three to six months or a year of emergency savings, because, as you know the pandemic hit in 2020 and no one saw that coming and you just don't know what's going to happen in the future. So it's important to have an emergency fund to help out in certain situations like this, so you avoid pulling from the 401k loan because you really want to let those assets grow for your retirement and not access it for rainy day funds- [crosstalk 00:08:10].   Mark: Kind of a stop gap.   John: .... on things like that.   Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's some negative impacts of doing that though, John? I think one of the things people get lost on is just the compounding of it over time, right?   John: Yeah. So you take out 40 grand out of it, basically, especially, let's say you did that in 2020, let's say you took out $40,000 there, you just lost the compounding over the next year and a half, two years of which has been really excellent in reality [crosstalk 00:08:33] with what the market's done. So not... You're just not losing that $40,000, you're losing what that $40,000 could have grown to, which is the importance of having, again, the rainy day fund, so you can let that money in there, let that money grow for you and earn and work for you.   Mark: Yeah.   John: And then nevermind then you're paying money back into it that are after tax dollar. So there's a lot that goes into it that you really need to evaluate it. Sometimes it's you have to because you have nothing else to pull from.   Mark: Right.   John: But it's always important to plan and make sure that you... This is the last resort.   Mark: I hear a lot of advisors say taking that loan against it is usually the later, like if it's kind of like the last in the line, if you really need it, okay, here's where we can go. But let's try not to. Just simply from a multitude of reasons, especially with the resignation, right? If you take a loan against your 401k and you leave the job, you have to pay that back. Correct?   John: Yeah. That's a great point that you bring up. Most companies will give you 30 days to pay it back. So example, you take out that $40,000 and all of a sudden it's, "Hey, we're downsizing," and you get a pink slip, and not only you got, now you all of a sudden you got to pay 40 grand back to your 401k within, a 30 day period, maybe 60 day period. And if you do not pay it back, you're going to be paying taxes and penalty on that, on those dollars.   Mark: Pretty stiff. Yeah.   John: Yeah.   Mark: Yeah. So that's another takeaway for that. And Nick, let's stick with the 401k for a minute for the next one. If you are in this kind of nomad thing where you're jumping out of one job, you're waiting a bit, maybe going into another, looking for a better option for yourself, seeing who's hiring, whatever the scenario is, take that 401k with you, right? Don't just leave it back behind at the old place.   Nick: Yeah. It can be, realistically the more accounts people have, the more places, the more often things are overlooked, not checked up on, not taken care of, so we definitely are fans of consolidating. Whether it's rolling it into the plan at your new employer or rolling it into an IRA where you can control the assets yourself or work with an advisor to manage them for you. Just like so many other things, it's one of the things that former or past employer 401k plans are oftentimes one of the most overlooked and non-adjusted things that we've seen people kind of not take care of.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: And then they lose a lot of long term money on it because of that.   Mark: Well, you got to think about the vested portion too. Right? So if it's, let's say you're 50 or something like that, and you're pondering this, make sure you under... that you're getting the fully vested part before you jump on. There are some people that could say, well, all right, maybe I'd better stick this out a little longer or whatever the case is.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely. There are some people that... It's much more common for people to move from one employer to the next these days. Especially in certain industries where they can be almost more of a tech role or consultant role, things like that. And sometimes, because of that, their employer has put in a decent amount of money, so an employee's contributions are always vested, it's always their money, but they could have substantial employer matching that vests over three to five years. Or some other sorts of benefits, even if it's not exactly the 401k, but maybe there's a stock plan that has vesting. It's important to take those things into consideration because we've seen people leave tens of thousands of dollars on the table.   Mark: Right.   Nick: Not realizing that it was a factor they should have taken into consideration before they switched employers.   Mark: Yeah. Don't leave that behind. Right? So definitely take it with you, whether you're rolling it from the old one into the new one. And if you do it properly, it's not going to, it's not an issue, right, Nick? So if you've got it in the old one and you roll it to the new one, you just go through the proper channels and there's no taxable event and so on and so forth. Same thing if you move it to an IRA, correct?   Nick: Correct. Yeah. The goal is always to make sure that it's rollover, it's not taken as a lump sum distribution-   Mark: To yourself.   Nick: Yeah. So you always want to make sure that when the rollover happens, it gets paid directly to the new custodian. So it's not written out to you. It's written to the new custodian, whether that's a Fidelity or a Vanguard or whoever it may be, it's paid directly to them, the funds go over and that avoids there being any sort of tax liability or penalty if somebody's under the age of 59 and a half.   Mark: All right. So let's go to the fourth takeaway here, guys. I'll let you both kind of jump in and out on this. John, I'll start with you. It seems like this whole resignation thing is kind of tailor made for those early retirement dreamers. Kind of go back to my brother's conversation there about, Well, if they... I'll retire a couple years early, if they make me go back to the office kind of thing, but I'll work from home." So it's enticing for sure, but point out some challenges to just ponder if you are retiring early, ahead of what you originally planned, you guys kind of divide up a few of these, if you would, but John go ahead and start with a couple of bullet points to think about.   John: Yeah. One of the things that I think about is qualifying for Social Security. The earliest you can draw Social Security is age 62. So, if you're retiring at let's just call 57, you got a decent gap of where you can't take any Social Security. So you really have to evaluate are there any other income sources coming in like a pension or maybe some real estate income or whatever it might be. And then if there isn't, is your nest egg able to sustain your plans. [crosstalk 00:14:06].   Mark: Five years, yeah.   John: Yeah. Is it able to work if you're using your nest egg to basically live off of for that period of time. So those are one of the things. And then you always want to of look at as one, we've had situations where one spouse might retire early and the other one's still work and they say, "Hey, we could live off of just one income for the time being. And if we need any extra money, we have the nest egg that we can pull from as needed." So that would be a big one to really look at.   John: Another one that we come across quite often is healthcare coverage. I'd say one of the main reasons that people don't retire. From our standpoint, what we see is really healthcare. So they wait till they're 65, so they can draw on Medicare. And prior to that, they just kind of look at the cost of going to the Marketplace and say, you know what, this is probably a little too rich for my blood, so [crosstalk 00:14:55] kind of hold off.   Mark: And if you use your example of 57, I mean, you're talking eight years, what are you doing in that gap? Right.   John: Yeah. And we've seen everyone's situations different in what their premium is, but I've seen some premiums for individual at that age at $10-11,000 per year. Nevermind, the coverage isn't as good. So that's [crosstalk 00:15:12]-   Mark: And that's not per person too. Right. So if you and the spouse.   John: Yeah, yeah. Yep. That's per person.   Mark: Can your retirement accounts handle that for that setup that we just talked about or whatever the case might be and then realizing that that's also, that your retirement is now going to be longer, right, because you've retired early, so it's the kind of great multiplier. So those things just kind of compound and go up from there. Nick, do you agree with that and what's some things you see?   Nick: Yeah. For sure. It's definitely a slippery slope when you start to factor in. We've got some clients who work for large employers, their total health premiums for the households can run $2-3,000 a year for both of them. So when you go and you take... You go from $2-3000 for both of you while you're working to somewhere between $8-20,000 a year before Medicare age, it can be pretty substantial. And oftentimes, for many people, there's going to be a price increase, even when they're on Medicare from if you were working for a company that was a larger employer and had pretty inexpensive health benefits. So that makes a huge, huge difference.   Nick: And one way that some people have managed things from that perspective are with some of the Marketplace options out there will kind of connect people with specialists that can help on the medical insurance side of things. And you may be able to take money from taxable accounts that don't have large gains to put your income lower so that you don't pay as much, but in reality, to be frank, usually the only people that can do that are ones that have saved substantial amount of money into a non-qualified account, which usually means they have a lot of money. So, it's less of an issue. So really looking at that, looking at the different types of accounts, when you create your withdrawal rate, and figuring out, hey, how can we keep your income taxes low, not a only for a short period of time when you're in retirement, but kind of building flexibility throughout your retirement, where you're not just letting this tax bomb grow, or you're not using all of your Roth money first or leaving it all for the end.   Nick: It's usually kind of a bit of a balance. So we harp on it a lot, but this is really where there's so many factors and things like this. That this is where kind of software and the tech tools that we have today really help us tailor make a plan, come up with a really good income and liquidation strategy, help us figure out what kind of gaps are we going to have between the time that you retire and when things like Social Security are going to kick in to help supplement the income, and then when Medicare's going to kick in to help reduce expenses. So, it's definitely a puzzle and fortunately we enjoy putting the pieces together.   Mark: Right. Well, look, if you're on the fence, well, if you already did the resigned and walked away, hopefully you had a plan in place, but if you're not, if you're among some of those folks that are still considering, I've heard some interesting stats that they think that's going to happen. Again, early on the first half of 2022, make sure you're talking with an advisor about all the different things that could happen if you do step away early. Most people, hopefully do, but sometimes you just get frustrated or whatever the case is. And a lot of it does have to do with this kind of going back to work, staying working from home, it got good to us, we really kind of, in some ways, very much so enjoy being able to work from home, in other ways we kind of missed the camaraderie. So there's a lot of different things to just kind of take into account before you pull the Great Resignation.   Mark: And with that, we're going to wrap it up this week. We're going to knock out an email question here real fast. Whichever one of you guys want to tackle this, but we've got one from Rebecca who said, "Guys, every six months or so I tell myself, I need to start saving more for retirement and I pretend like I'm going to get serious and actually do it. But then I can't stay motivated to increase my savings. I'm putting a decent amount in the 401k and I have a pretty nice balance there, but it feels like I could be doing more. It's the beginning of the year, I want to be more motivated. How do I do it?"   John: This comes up quite a bit. And I'd say the easiest way to save is probably the 401k, because it's done through payroll and you really, once you start saving in to it, you really don't miss the money coming out into it and you can always adjust it. And we've had some people where they say, "Hey, I'm putting enough into my 401k, what else should I do?" And the first step is just really just setting up an account and you can start with as little as $25 a month, or $50 a month, but once that account's open, it's much easier just to say, hey, let me up this. So I would say the first step is look at the 401k and if you don't want to continue contributing to that, just open up an account somewhere with your advisor or on your own and just set it up monthly, and then you can always adjust it as needed.   Mark: Yeah. Or maybe a Roth, right? If she wants to look at a tax, something more tax efficient. So...   John: Yep.   Mark: That's another way to look at it. But yeah, I think if you automate it and you just put it in play, Rebecca, that should hopefully get you... You just, if you don't see it and you don't think about it and it's just happening in the background, then that's the beauty of it, so then you don't have to worry about necessarily getting motivated. But another way might be to sit down with a professional and start getting some advice. It doesn't matter really on your age, the sooner, the better. So if you got questions, need some help, reach out to John and Nick, go to the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com.   Mark: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you like to use, Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, just type in Retirement Planning Redefined, or again, just find it all at their website, pfgprivatewealth.com. If you got questions, need some help, John and Nick are here for you.   Mark: Guys, thanks for hanging out. I appreciate it. Talking to me about the Great Resignation and we'll talk about it in a couple of weeks here, we'll see what's going on.   Nick: Thanks, Mark   John: Thanks.   Mark: I appreciate your time as always. Guys, thanks for hanging out with me. We'll see you next time here on the podcast, with John and Nick, this is Retirement Planning Redefined.

Let's talk about digital identity with Nick Mothershaw, Chief Identity Strategist at the Open Identity Exchange. In episode 61, Oscar speaks to Nick about the Open Identity Exchange (OIX)'s role in the Global Assured Identity Network (GAIN), plus the OIX Trust Framework 2022. Nick discusses what makes a trust framework work for its intended users, and how to make it interoperable with other frameworks. [Transcript below] "When things work for users, they get adopted." Nick is Chief Identity Strategist at the Open Identity Exchange, a community for all those involved in the ID sector to connect and collaborate. Together they develop the guidance needed for interoperable, trusted identities on a global basis. Through OIX's definition of, and education on, Trust Frameworks it creates the rules, tools, and confidence to allow every individual a trusted, universally accepted, identity. Find out more about the Open Identity Exchange at openidentityexchange.org. Nick has expert knowledge of Identity and Fraud techniques, solutions, and standards across a wide variety of different sectors and jurisdictions. He was previously Director of ID and Fraud at Experian where he was responsible for the development of Experian's fraud and identity solutions for both the public and private sectors. Nick led Experian's development, launch and operation of a full “Identity as a Service” solution which was the first live example of a Digital ID being seamlessly interoperable across public and private sector. Find Nick on Twitter @OIX_Nick and on LinkedIn. Follow OIX on Twitter @OpenIDExchange. We'll be continuing this conversation on Twitter using #LTADI – join us @ubisecure!     Podcast transcript Let's Talk About Digital Identity, the podcast connecting identity and business. I am your host, Oscar Santolalla. Oscar Santolalla: Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Let's Talk About Digital Identity in this new year, 2022. And we have, after some time, again, our friends of the Open Identity Exchange. And today, our guest is Nick Mothershaw. He is the Chief Identity Strategist at the Open Identity Exchange, a community for all those involved in the identity sector to connect and collaborate. Nick has expert knowledge of Identity and Fraud techniques, solutions and standards across a wide variety of different sectors and jurisdictions. Nick was previously Director of Identity and Fraud at Experian, where he was responsible for the development of Experian's fraud and identity solutions for both the public and private sectors. Nick led Experian's development, launch and operation of a full "Identity as a Service" solution, which was the first live example of a digital identity being seamlessly interoperable across public and private sector. Hello, Nick. Nick Mothershaw: Hello, Oscar. Hello. Oscar: Welcome. It's great having you, Nick. Nick: It's a pleasure to be here. And yeah, Happy New Year to you and all your listeners, very exciting to be at the start of 2022, which I think it's going to be an amazing and transformational year for digital identity. So this is a really timely conversation. Oscar: Yeah. And I know you have new things to tell us. So yeah, Nick, let's talk about digital identity. But I'd like to start hearing a bit more about yourself, so please tell us about your journey to the world of digital identity. Nick: Yeah, it's been a long journey now. So I was originally involved in, I guess, in identity when I worked with law enforcement, providing crime management and intelligence management systems. And after that, we started looking at biometrics. So around the year 2000, we were using biometrics to help identify criminals from group photographs and also using facial mapping to look at, where we used to use these E-FITs, these faces that were being drawn by computer that were put out on things like crime watch programmes, so we're using facial biometrics to match those two datab...

Even if you have a solid financial plan in place, things can quickly get out of tune if you don't make adjustments from time to time. Let's talk about some of the areas where we often see people get out of tune in their financial plan. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Welcome into another edition of the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with John and Nick and myself as we're going to talk about Retirement Planning Redefined once again. This week, we are going to chat about getting in tune. No, not instruments, and we're not going to sing, because that might be bad, but we're going to talk about getting our retirement plans into tune, especially because we all want to have that good solid piece in there that we know we're going to be comfortable and happy and get the things we need out of it, but we also can drift off from time to time. So, we want to pull those back in, get the reins if you will. So, that's going to be our topic this week is getting in tune. What's going on guys? What's shaking? How you doing? John: All good. Nick: Staying busy. Speaker 1: Yeah, staying busy. How's the dog? I know you got that dog that's really old. Is she doing okay? Nick: Depending upon your definition of okay, she's doing great. Speaker 1: Well, good. Nick: Yeah, she definitely keeps me on my toes. I think she had to go out five times before 11:30 today, so that was fun. Speaker 1: Holy cow. Nick: Yeah. Speaker 1: My mine's 15 and she's going deaf and going partly blind, but she's still okay in that department. How's yours doing? Is she having some hearing or vision? Nick: Oh yeah. No, she can't hear and her vision is not great, and so it's fun stuff. I'm on the third floor of my building, so I carry her down every time to go out. She's not a big dog, so it's easy, but- Speaker 1: It's cute and it's sad sometimes that she's losing her hearing. I'll be calling for her and she can't figure out exactly where it's coming from, because she's not completely deaf. So, she looks around in different angles and I'm like, 'I'm right next to you, you ding dong.' Nick: Oh yeah, I know that look well. Speaker 1: Pretty funny stuff. John, what's going on with you buddy? I know you don't have these exciting dog stories, but what's happening? John: Not too much. Just staying busy and I think as you're aware, becoming a school parent, so that's fun and then started my little one in gymnastics, so I have to head there tonight. Speaker 1: Oh, nice. Yeah. You're getting to that phase now where you got hobbies and activities all the time, right? John: Yeah, play dates are starting to get formed now. I pick her up from school and it's like, "Hey, I want to do a play date with my friend." It's like, "All right." Speaker 1: Yep, go, go, go. That's all right, hey, at least we're getting back to some of that stuff. So kids and stuff. I mean, everybody needs interaction, so it's good that we're here getting some of that stuff going on. Getting our life back in tune, so to speak. That'll be my segue back into the topic here. So, let's talk about how to get our financial plans or our retirement plan back in tune in case we've got out. We talked a couple weeks ago guys, and we're waiting to see what the fine details are going to be, we'll probably do a podcast on it, but tax considerations, future tax considerations. Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff that's right now at the time we're taping this that's before the house, it may go through, there's quite a bit to the corporate tax change, there is bumping up. They're trying to make it sound like it's all going to be for the higher net worth folks, but $400,000, $500,000 is not that hard to get to for some of these things. So depending on where you're at, tax considerations needs to be on everybody's radar no matter what you're making. Nick: Yeah, tax considerations are definitely something that we try to focus on with clients. I think in our minds, the number one, the rule of thumb when it comes to tax considerations in regards to investments and retirement accounts is to have options. So, what we mean by that is not only a diversification in the types of investments, underlying investments that you have, but also in the types of accounts that you have. Nick: You want to have accounts are going to be tax free down the road, accounts that will be taxed down the road and then maybe some accounts that are subject to income or capital gains taxes versus just ordinary income. So, the having options, building a personal moat and being able to have the ability to adapt and adjust, I think and staying nimble is the number one priority when it comes to planning. Speaker 1: Having a personal moat, I like that. John, you've been getting so much rain, you might have your own moat, right? John: Yeah, that's funny. I do feel like it's been raining every day. It's just new house, it's like we have this big yard and I walk back there and it's constantly soaked and the pool's always overflowing. So yes, I do have a personal moat keeping Nick out. Speaker 1: Nice, I like that. Okay, so tax considerations. Again, lots of things happening there, so that could even be changing and that's why it's definitely important to make sure. It's always important really, no matter what time we're in, but I mean certainly when we get to retirement, tax considerations and what we're paying is a big deal. So it's not what you make, it's what you keep, all that stuff. Speaker 1: Life insurance. Fellas, having the right amount, well, 'Hey, I'm retired, I don't need it.' That's what most people say, or at least that's the general consensus or rule of thought, but is that correct? John: Sometimes it is. It really comes down to when you're looking at, do I have the right amount? So, is there a need for it? If there is a need for it, then it becomes income replacement. So example, I go to retire and let's say I do have a pension that's life only. We talked about that a couple weeks ago and if I pass away, that pension's gone, does my spouse need that money for her money to last at that point or for her to hit her goals? John: If the answer's yes, she needs that pension replaced, then yes, there is a need for life insurance. There're other things that go into it, but that's just looking at it from a retirement standpoint. It's really replacing someone's income or assets that are needed to generate income for the surviving spouse. Nick: Yeah, and I would say just on top of that, I think probably the reason that we mentioned this in this conversation is just to not absentmindedly push it off the side. I think there's a perception for people that no matter what, they're not going to need any sort of coverage approach in retirement or into retirement. Just like anything else, we think it's important to take inventory, and when you're building your plan, to make sure that you vet out the different situations and scenarios. Nick: Because when you were originally planning, you may have not expected to have a mortgage, you may not have expected to help out your kids with education costs or maybe at the level that you did, or a myriad of other things. So life comes at you quick, we think it's important that... because so many people automatically assume that it's just no longer a part of the conversation for them, that you make sure that it is or is and take a good inventory to see if it makes sense for you. John: Yeah, definitely. Let me jump in here real quick. Speaker 1: Sure. John: This is really important for big business owners to look at as their near retirement, because a lot of small businesses, they are in essence the business, and if they don't have any life insurance and something happens to them, sometimes we've seen businesses have to fire sale and stuff like that. Nick: Yeah, if something happens to the owner, the business is relying upon the owner, the family expected to be able to sell the business and cash out and be profitable and sail into the sunset that can get derailed pretty quickly. So that's another good example. Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned cash, just cashing out, but that was actually, cash is on my next one who doesn't love cash. I mean, everybody loves cash. We want to keep a nice amount around. We feel like most people kind of have this, the higher the number the better. My kid, she's 24 now she's working, making good money for a change. Speaker 1: Now she's learning how to play this game with herself about, Ooh, how much can I get my savings account to grow? I'll be chatting with her and she'll be like, 'Yeah, I'm trying to hit this number. And I'm adding a little bit more.' And it's nice to see her kind of start to play that game with herself where she's trying to grow those accounts. And she enjoys always the fact they're growing and that only happens more as we get older. So people sometimes want these pretty large amounts sitting around. So what's the right amount to actually have, because I mean, at some point, we start talking about emergency funds and so on and so forth. I mean, what are you going to do with $100,000 sitting in the banking cash? Is that really too much? Is that the right amount? I mean, how do you figure that out? Nick: Well, this is where our very effective, but also annoying answer of it depends comes into play. So, this answer possibly more than almost anything else is I think hyper dependent upon the people or the person that we're talking about. Obviously there's kind of the rule of thumb of, six to 12 months of expenses in cash. But really when we drill down further, one of the things that I like to run by people is to have them think of cash in a way of it's the ultimate permission slip. What I mean by that is what amount of cash allows them to feel comfortable enough to not make irrational decisions with the rest of their money? So if having a year or 18 months, 24 months, even 36 months of cash allows them to be invested in a way that they should be with the rest of their money. Nick: Then in my mind that the opportunity cost of that money, getting more upside, that cash getting more upside is worth it because it prevents them for them overreacting to things like market corrections like we're having this week or these different sorts of scenarios and circumstances where one of the best techniques that has worked for us is going through and saying 'Yes, the market just pulled back over the last three months. Let's just say it did 10%.' But if we can go to the client's accounts and say, 'Look at, you've got your next 18 months of expenses without ever touching your investment accounts is sitting there in cash for you.' Plus remember that we've got somewhere between 30% and 50% of your actual investment and fixed income automatically their blood pressure, their heart rate, and their amount of emails and phone calls to us go down, which are all things that are positive. Speaker 1: Really that's the talk, starting talking about risk as well. And that's my final bit on getting the plan in tune is having the right amount of risk for the time that you're in and for the situation that you're in. Maybe those two things go hand in hand, well, they all really go hand in hand, if you think about a retirement plan in general, but getting the right amount of risk is certainly important. Speaker 1: And we touched on this a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about couples and how they sometimes they're opposites in that regard. So you still have to find that that happy place that's working for the plan. I think I saw an email for somebody in a couple of weeks back guys, and it was something like, my account haven't done as well as the market this year and maybe I should change advisors. And it was like, well, wait a minute. You know, don't just assume that it's the advisor's fault because it didn't keep up with the market. How are you set up from risk? Are you exactly... Are you taking all as much risk as possible in that, which case the market return should be closer? Or are you very conservative and just don't really know what you have and that's why you didn't perform as well. There's lots of ways in variables to look at this correct? John: Yeah. It's definitely one of the most important things to look at when your overall portfolio is what is your or risk tolerance and how are you invested in? And what you just said is on point, we find that a lot where people are trying to compare not only to us, but other advisors like, 'Well, the S&P did this, what did I do?;' And then when you start diving into it, it's, well, you're a 50, 50 mix and that's the S&P all 100% equities. It's not going to be the same. John: But definitely from a planning standpoint, we try to make sure people are invested correctly based on their risk tolerance. Because if you are more aggressive in your portfolio than you actually are, when you start to see a dip, chances are you're going to panic and chances are if the dip is fast enough or goes down enough like in the COVID period, there March, April 2020, some people change courses and went from what they were, and then went to very conservative. John: And then three weeks later, the market just rallied back and all the gains were lost if you were, are seeing on the sidelines. It's important to really pick your risk tolerance, pick your portfolio and stay at the course based on the plan. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't panic. That's usually the worst time to do it. It's definitely one of those cases where we tend to do that. And that's, again, the value I think of an advisor, because somebody can call up and say, like the pandemic crash or whatever, and say, 'Hey, I'm panicking. What do I do?' And you can walk through those scenarios without just locking necessarily locking in those gains by panic selling or whatever that case might be. Speaker 1: So something to look out for, make sure you have your plan in tune, and they require a tune note, folks, these they're not a set and forget it kind of thing, it's not. Even life insurance, if you bought life insurance 25 years ago, and you hadn't looked at it 25 years, it's one of those things where we buy it, we think we're never going to need it to look at it again, but no, that's not the case. Speaker 1: Stuff changes. Life happens. So make sure you're making little tweaks, your plans should change and ebb and flow just like your life's going to. And that was our topic this week on the podcast. And as always, we're going to try to take at least an email question or two, if we can, if you'd like to submit your own, go to the website at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com drop us a line there and subscribe to the podcast while you're there as well. Speaker 1: We'll see if we can get these two in at least one, we got a question for Nick, from Jamie. He says, 'Nick, I've looked forward to retirement for many years and I enjoy the podcast. And now that I'm actually retired, I can't shake the feeling that I'm going to run out money. So you got any solutions for fighting the feelings, or should I just go back to work?' That's one of these things where people get into that situation. It's like they maybe don't have a good plan or they're just not comfortable. So they're not really sure what it's doing for them. Nick: Yeah. So this is interesting because I would say that realistically, the majority of the people that work with us, their plans are pretty solid and we have a high level of comfort of them retiring. In those scenarios where, where we have a high level of confidence in their plan and what we've done, especially, because we use a lot of pretty of variables. We try to up the cadence of meetings or the amount of times that we talk and get them to start trying to view things maybe a little bit more like us. Nick: So using things like the client portal that we have, where they can view their cashflow or their lifetime and see the different parts start to become more familiar with how the planning software works and get some of that comfort and affirmation that they're online and on target is really, really important. Nick: And then from the perspective of things that maybe aren't quite as static, in our regular reviews, really trying to drill down and dig into what are the things that are concerning them the most? For example, for some people, the things that are concerning them the most might be taxes. We can work, show them and illustrate a scenario of a significant bump in taxes and show them how that impacts them specifically. Nick: When I realized that I should ask clients that have serious concerns about how these specific things that they're concerned about impact them specifically, because one of the things we've seen is that, it's like, 'Okay, I'm watching the news and the news says this is going to happen and freak out in twos. Nick: They're thinking in large terms maybe from societal standpoint and that's understandable, but take that one step further and say, 'Okay, well how does this impacting me? How impact my plan? How does this impact me? And then when we start to drill down, when they start to learn to do that, the amount of stress that they have starts to go away pretty significantly. 'Okay, well I'm concerned about these taxes.' All right, well, Hey, let's take a look at the amount of income you're in. Let's take a look at sort of bracket you're in. Nick: Historically, even if we go back the last 20 years, how much that bracket has fluctuated and you see throughout 9/11, throughout the great recession, throughout the bounce back, throughout... Year bracket that you're in has gone plus, or minus 3%, that's not going to really have a huge packed on you or let's even just let's bump it up an extra 10%, those sorts of things or using that same sort of situational awareness with markets or, whatever else it is, health, those sorts of things. When people start to really think about how to impact them, it's usually kind of a calming factor for them. Speaker 1: Yeah, I think at the end of the day, if you don't have a good strategy in place that makes sense to you and that you understand you're going to have a hard time shaking that feeling and not feeling calm and feeling nervous about it. And that's really where the right advisor and also the right plan comes in place. If you're working with somebody and you feel like things maybe aren't totally there, it's okay to get a second opinion. Whether it's Jamie or anybody else that checking out the podcast, find out if you're working with somebody and you're not sure that that's the right fit, then get a second opinion and you may find that it is. It's everything's working swimmingly well, and that's fantastic. Or you may find that you might need to make a change. Speaker 1: And if you do, just reach out to John and Nick and schedule some time, have a conversation with them. Second opinions is part of the industry. So give them a jingle, have a conversation, pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com and time wise, guys, I think that's going to wrap it up for this week. So we'll, we'll take that next email question next time on the show. Speaker 1: So reach out folks, let them know, to give them a cell, 8132867776 is the number to call. It's just easier to go to the website, pfgprivatewealth.com, subscribe to the show and all that good stuff on Apple, Google, Spotify. And we'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick and you guys have a great week. We'll see soon. Nick: [inaudible 00:18:25] John: Have a good one.

Getting husbands and wives on the same page with their retirement plan can often be a challenge. Let's talk about some of the things that couples often mess up. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Everybody welcome to the podcast. Thanks for tuning into the show. As we talk about investing, finance and retirement here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick. And we're going to talk about couples this go around and some financial mistakes couples often get into. Because John, I don't know about you, buddy, but my wife and I are on the same page about everything all the time. John: Yeah. Sounds like you go by the motto happy wife, happy life. Mark: Yeah. Not so much. No. She would disagree with that. Something fear. She's like, "If I could ever get you to agree with me on anything for happy wife, that'd be good." But no, this is a joke people make all the time. Couples that definitely do not see eye to eye on a lot of things, and finances is certainly one of those. John: Finances and kitchen remodels, definitely. So... Mark: Kitchen remodels, Nick, what's going on with you, buddy. How you doing? We don't want to leave you out. Nick: Pretty good, just staying busy, happy that football seasons here, NFL season is here. I'm looking forward to fall weather in Florida. Mark: Yeah. Well it's on its way, hopefully. So we're into September when we're taping this. So let's get into it and talk about some stuff. I imagine you guys see a lot of different things when couples come in, and you see a lot of different people on, whether they're on the same page or different pages or whatever the case might be. And many times as much as couples might think they've talked about this stuff, I imagine you guys probably see that they didn't talk about it as much as they should have, or maybe as a depth or they just really glossed over the subject. Mark: So let's dive into a few things and see if we can highlight stuff for folks. So when they do come in and sit down, maybe they're a little further along in this conversation, and you guys don't have to wear your marriage counselor hats along with your financial advisor hat. So number one, making the wrong choice on how to handle the spousal benefit option, if you're lucky enough to have a pension, I talked to a bunch of guys advisors and stuff, fellows over the years that have said, "It's amazing how many times somebody will take that without even talking to their spouse about it, just because they see that higher number." Nick: Yeah, it's interesting that a lot of places have put some restrictions from the perspective of the paperwork where they'll have to be a notary sign off or things like that, but we've seen them without, and there's definitely a misconception or misunderstanding on how these pension payouts will work. And so this could be a mistake that it's typically a one-time decision. So for anybody that has substantial income, that will be coming in from a pension, this could ultimately be the most important decision that they make, and it's something not to overlook. And just to be a little bit more direct, oftentimes they will see the single life option, which you would referred to as the highest payout, and not realize that if something happens to them, then nobody gets any remaining benefit. Nick: One of the ways that we'll try to phrase that to people is, no matter what, I've never met anybody that wants to have worked for a company for a long time, and even if there's a divorce situation or something where if something happens to them that nobody gets any of the benefits that they would have been due for the rest of their life. So on making sure that those options are understood and making sure that they're correlated and tied into the rest of the decisions that they've made for their planning it's super important. John: Yeah. And a big thing to that, Nick mentioned single life, is understand the different joint survivor lives. You can have a joint survivor where one passes away, they still get a 100% of the benefit. And then there's a couple of different options where you get 75 and 50%, and it's always good to reference the plan to make sure if one person passes away that the plan basically is still intact and that surviving spouse can still hit all their goals. Mark: Absolutely. On those conversations, if it does happen, I can't imagine that the other person's too happy about, "Hey, wait a minute, why did you take the wrong one and leave me out?" So, you want to make sure that you're doing those for sure. Number two is the coordination on the social security strategy, social security is that horse that we're going to beat constantly, because it's a big component of people's retirement plans, and the money that's out there. But we can't get into this rush to just go turn it on without really thinking about a strategy, especially if you're married, because there's a lot of strategy involved. John: Yeah, there is. You hit it perfectly when you said it's a big decision. I believe social security equate for like 30 to 40% of someone's household income in retirement. So you want to coordinate it right, and the biggest mistake we typically see is once one person retires maybe early at like 62, 63 64, they're just going to go ahead and turn it on, while the other spouse is working, but there's definitely a lot of different strategies that you can implement. Nick and I focus heavily on planning, and it really all does come back to the planning cause everyone's situation is different, but you really want to look at what's best for your situation. Does it make sense to defer the higher amount for survivor plan down the road? We just talked about pensions. Is there a current pension in place? Which will make the social security decision even more important to really coordinate that with any pension or any other guaranteed income stream. Mark: Strategy is key, and so many things for retirement planning, but certainly in social security. And again, that's why the podcast this week is really about mistakes for couples. Because again, we can kind of talk through this stuff in generalities and sometimes we just kind of barely touch on it, but there's a lot of minutia to dive into, and that's where an advisor really comes into play. And here's a simple one guys, and I don't know how often you guys encounter this, but I talked to many advisors who say, "It's pretty surprising. People will come in for the first time. And they really haven't truly talked about what they want to do with their actual time in retirement, what they want to actually do with retirement. And yeah, they say the general things, well, we want to travel, well, he wants to play golf or whatever, but it's like, well, what does that actually look like? How much golf, how much travel? Where to? So on and so forth." So that stuff really is important in what you guys do to help them design a plan for that. Nick: Yeah. This is something that I've been really trying to focus on with people, with clients. And one of the things that I've found is that, for so many people that are retiring recently or very soon, looking back, one of the things that I've found is that many of them, even if we were to rewind five, six years ago, we've had this huge run-up in the market. So now you have people that have a lot more money in retirement than many of them thought that they would. And so some of the options that they have in some of the thought processes that they can have is less of a scarcity mindset and more of a thriving mindset and really trying to focus on things that they really want to do. Nick: An example recently is a plan with clients that had retired within the last year. And so they're plugging along and the plan looks really, really solid. And so, I really tried to start drilling down. It's like "Now that you've been retired for a little while, now that you have a feeling of what it feels like, what are the things that you really want to do?" And then using planning to help them figure out if we can do it from a financial standpoint. So, one client wanted a larger property for their primary residence to be able to work on cars, that was the kind of hobby. And so it goes. We've kind of talked about the fact that the sharper they stay, the more engaged they stay, whether it's hobbies, whether it's volunteering, no matter what it is, as long as you're staying engaged and sharp, their life is going to be probably longer realistically. And the brain's not going to really rot away. Nick: And so helping people dial into those things that they want to do, I think is probably one of the most enjoyable things on our side of the business, but it takes a while and quite a bit of repetition to really get them to visualize it and see it. Mark: Yeah, indeed, because again, you might talk about some basic things you want to do, but you really start to have to dive in and dissect more because you got all this free time now. And of course you hear all of the funny stories, maybe the Mrs. Will say, "Find something else for him to do get him out of my house." John: One thing we've noticed is that when we do the planning, we'll ask that question and one spouse will say something and the other one just gives a look like "What? I didn't know that." Mark: First I've heard about it. And that's the point of really even though they think maybe they've communicated this. And again, I think that's really where great value comes into play from what you guys do, because you get to be this... Maybe that's not always the most fun thing to be in the middle, but you get to be this mediator a little bit, or this sounding board where to that point, John, when somebody is like, "Wait a minute, this is the first time we're talking about it." Now they're going to hash it out and you guys can help them walk through it. So hopefully it's good in the end because they're getting through to the details they really got to get to. So these are, again, are mistakes that couples can get themselves into when planning for retirement. Number four, not coordinating other accounts. So how important is it guys to include or incorporate coordination amongst his 401k and her IRA and so on and so forth? John: So this is a really important one. And again, we sound like broken records, but this is important to the plan itself, as far as once both people are retired, and you're looking at how much income is needed from the nest eggs, where is that money coming from? Whose accounts? And once that's determined, that will dictate how that money should be invested. So this is really important and often overlooked if someone has not gone through a comprehensive plan, whether they've done it themselves or working with an advisor, but this could be a really big mistake if you haven't coordinated this correctly. Mark: And coordination is the key, getting on the same page is the key. I started off this podcast by joking about my wife and I are always in agreement because that's how spouses are. Yeah. Right. So, at the end of the day, we tend to see differently in a couple of ways, opposites attract kind of thing. Right. So how often, and how much do you guys deal with managing the opposites in their personalities with risk? For example, that's a big one, obviously. Because many, many times I think we're going to see people where one person is like, "Hey, let's take some risks, let's take some chances." And the other, one's not so comfortable with that. And maybe they haven't even been as honest as they might be in front of you guys saying, "You know what, now that we're sitting here, I don't want to take that much risk." So you guys have to figure out a way to get them in a neutral, workable ground. Nick: I think one of the ways to do that, that we found to be the most effective, is to try to double down on embracing the differences and letting them know that. And even if we go back through the plan and say, "Hey, look at these two decisions that you made, really help the plan in this way." And then, these two decisions that the other spouse made really helped the plan in this way. So they compliment each other. Nick: So, let's focus on moving forward. What are the things that we do to earn the next step? And what I mean by that is, so there's a couple of things, we try to continuously emphasize the fact that we don't really care what their brother, sister, neighbor, dog walker/former coworker does. And then we'll rattle off four or five things that are immediately different about their life then all of those people. And so they start to get that. And then as we further drill down and we'll say, "Okay," we'll look it, "Hey, I know that you're feeling a little bit concerned about the market, but remember that we've got two years of cash in the bank. So that's your pass to be able to do X, Y, and Z." And so almost just walking them through and helping them understand, like, "Hey, we've done this, and so we graduate to this level. We've done this, we graduate to this level." And so we keep moving up the ladder and that all of these decisions are tied together and correlated. Nick: And we try to emphasize the fact that, when we make these recommendations, it's not like we make these recommendations for every single person that we work with, these recommendations are specific to them. And so I think that helping them understand that, to embrace those differences and to make sure that we've done things, we've put things in place. So maybe the spouse sets a little bit more aggressive, we point out, "Well, Hey, look it, we've got 15 to 20% of your assets in this Roth IRA. And this is where we're taking the majority of the risk in your portfolio, because the upside is tax-free." And then maybe the other spouse is more conservative and we say, "Hey, remember that you have your social security, you got a small pension. And we put this annuity in place with guaranteed income to satisfy that risk that we perceived." And so all of these things are working together to try to balance it out. And usually it's just kind of rehashing that over time. And then people start to get it. Mark: Yes. The multiple pieces of the pie. So you're going to have these different things in there that are going to hopefully help address multiple concerns. That's why there's a lot of financial products and vehicles out there to be used. And it's not any one thing is the right fit, any one thing is the wrong fit. It's a matter of finding the right vehicles for the right situation and then plugging and playing those in for the different person and their scenario. So that's some places financial mistakes couples can get into. Of course you want to make sure you don't get into those by working with a good advisor or a qualified team, like John and Nick and their team at PFG Private Wealth. So if you'd like to drop by the website and send us an email as well, pfgprivatewealth.com. Mark: If you've got a question, we take those from time to time pfgprivatewealth.com is where you can go. All questions get answered, not all get asked on the podcast, but we do have one this week. So let's see what we got for you guys, Christopher, he sent this one and he says, "Hey, John," but I'm sure he means either one of you, but he says, "Hey, John, I'll be turning 70 at the beginning of next year. And I'm getting annoyed about having to think about taking money out of my IRA, because I'm not going to need it. I'm sure you have some tips for circumventing this rule. What are they?" John: Christopher, good question. So just to update you, the new RMD Required Minimum Distribution age is now 72 versus 70. So that was just seven and a half, that was just changed a couple of years back. But now that this comes up often, one of the things that we currently do for our clients is we'll actually set up a individual taxable account where we'll basically just, if there's a 15, $20,000 RMD, that's unneeded, we'll just transfer that right into it. And go ahead and invest in exactly what they're invested in before, because it really just needs to come out of the IRA, it can go right back into the market. Another strategy we've done is if a client is doing some charitable contributions, you can actually make charitable contributions from your IRA to your selected charity. And that will avoid taxation of that. And again, we always have our disclaimer, talk to your tax advisor if you look for tax advice, we're not tax professionals, but that's a really good strategy to use when you're trying to avoid the RMD taxation. Mark: Got you. Well. So the good news, Christopher, is you got a little bit more time. It's 72 now. I love when people say, "There's got to be ways around this," there really isn't, either don't have an IRA or there's not really a way around it. You're going to have to give the government their share, which is why people have been doing things like conversions. There've been converting money out and doing so on and so forth so they can reduce the amount in there to avoid having to pay that by not having the account. But that's really about the only way, correct? Nick: Yeah. The conversions can be helpful to reduce the amount that's going to have to be required to come out. But at the same time when the window is short and they realize that, "Hey, I'm just going to have to pay. I'm going to have to pay taxes on that money now when I convert versus, a portion of the amount that I would take out down the road." Or that, it's like, "Hey, well, you are going to pay tax on it, but still our plan's recognizing the taxation and you could see here in the planning software, this is what your total tax obligation is going to be. And we can reinvest some of that money. So it may have less of an impact on, on you that you think." Nick: I think one of the things that we've seen is that obviously taxes are a hot button and nobody likes paying them. But I would say that probably 90% of the people that we interact with overestimate, or assume that they pay a lot more in taxes than they actually do. So that's always a good exercise for us to remind people that in the scheme of things, many of them are paying a lot less than they realize anyway. So it's one of those things where in theory sometimes the move can be good, but oftentimes in their mind it's better than in actuality. And of course, just like anything else, we try to test that out through the planning. Mark: Well, Christopher, so there's some good news in there, like I said, there's some more information for you. Obviously they showed a couple of ideas, but hang onto your hat. Because as of right now, stuff's going through that we're tying at the time we're taping this. There's more things to possibly be passed. So there could be some changes again, coming as well. So we'll do an updated podcast on that once they go through or as we have more information, but for now, that's going to wrap it up this week here on the podcast, Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick. Guys, thanks for hanging out as always. Appreciate your time. And folks, if you need some help, reach out to them at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, any of those platforms. You can certainly find it that way. You can find all that information at the website and subscribe from there, again, pfgprivatewealth.com, for John and Nick. I'm Mark. We'll see you next time here on the podcast.

Nick deWilde is a Product Marketing Principal at Guild Education. Guild is a fast-growing startup that partners with Fortune 500 employers. Guild unlocks opportunities for America's workforce via education and upskilling.Nick also runs his newsletter, The Jungle Gym. The Jungle Gym helps readers build a more fulfilling career that integrates work and life. Before working at Guild, Nick earned his MBA from Stanford Business School, and was a Managing Partner at Tradecraft.Nick and I talk about his relationship with Twitter, and how social media can both serve you, and be a challenge. We talk about individual brands and growing a platform. Nick also shares his thoughts about marketing yourself as an individual, and we discuss how growing an audience plays into your career.In this episode, you'll learn: Building an audience while working full-time Three reasons people start newsletters What to do when your follower count hits a plateau Links & Resources Morning Brew Fastly Joseph Henrich, The Secret of Our Success Julian Shapiro Sahil Bloom Dickie Bush Medium Tiago Forte Building a Second Brain David Perell Write of Passage Tradecraft Guild Hacker news John Lee Dumas Packy McCormick Mario Gabriele Seth Godin Rachel Carlson On Deck Gong Matt Ragland Charli Prangley The Nathan Barry Show, featuring Kimberly Brooks Harry Stebbings The Twenty Minute VC Isa Adney Liz Fosslien, No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work Discord Reddit Pallet Craft + Commerce ConvertKit Enough Ryan Holiday James Clear Marie Forleo Ramit Sethi Nick deWilde's Links Follow Nick on Twitter Nick's newsletter, The Jungle Gym To tweet, or not to tweet Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Nick:I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them. I talk about work a lot, and whenever I talk about hiring, I mention Gild is hiring. There are things I do to just try to make sure that it still feels worth the company's while.[00:00:25] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Nick deWilde, who writes a popular newsletter called The Jungle Gym. He's got a background in product and growth, and all these things from the startup world. I just love the approach that he's taken to writing these days.We talk about growing as newsletter. We talk about his interesting relationship with Twitter and social media. How it can really serve you and be this great thing, and then it can also be challenging. Maybe you're spending too much time on it, or time on it in a way that's not actually serving you or benefiting you.We talk about the rise of individual brands being used to grow a platform. It's something I've been thinking a lot about, watching Morning Brew and Fastly, and some of these other companies do it. It's just interesting whether you're marketing as a company or an individual. It's just a good conversation. We also talk about audience, and just how that plays into your career.He recently made the switch from a full-time role, to doing more audience-based business stuff. He was just in the middle of that journey. So, it's a fun place and time to catch up in the conversation.Nick, welcome to the show.[00:01:33] Nick:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan.[00:01:35] Nathan:I want to start on this article you have, that I like a lot, called, “To tweet, or not to tweet,” That got you ahead. I also happened to go to the Shakespeare festival recently, and watched them do “The Complete Works of Shakespeare, Abridged.”So, you know, I could probably pull off a good, to[00:01:50] Nick:Nice.[00:01:51] Nathan:Be or not to be speech right now. It's in my head because I think about all the wonderful things that Twitter and an audience beyond that does for me. Then also the negative sides of it. So maybe we dive into that, but I'd also love to hear what sparked you diving in and building an audience.[00:02:11] Nick:Yeah, I'm so conflicted on Twitter, and audience building in general. Like anything, I imagine there's a fair number of people who you talked to, who are in the writing community, who feel that way. On the one hand, Twitter does so many things for me. Especially over the past couple of years.As we've been in lockdown, lives have moved online. I have met and made friends with so many amazing people through Twitter that I wouldn't have met otherwise. Same with the newsletter, but Twitter is a little bit easier to build those relationships.Twitter has definitely helped grow my bank account. So, there are clearly things that being online and participating in the online world really does for you that are valuable.I think, building an audience is super valuable.When I think about the future of work, and what will be automated and what won't be, I really think that human beings, our greatest strength that is the hardest to copy is our ability to influence other people. This really comes from some of the thinking of author Joseph Heinrich, who looked at what is the secret of human success.It's cultural learning. It's our ability to essentially watch what other people do, and mimic them. We're really good at detecting what is a real human and what's not, and who's someone prestigious that we should learn from, and who isn't.I think that audience building is super valuable. So, even though I don't love the activity of building an audience, I have gotten a lot of value out of it, and I see the value in it. So, I very much come from a conflicted spot in this. I'm very impressed by people like Julian, and Sahil, and Dickie Bush, who have grown amazing audiences.Some days I aspire to 10X my audience, and some days I'm just like, please let me be a monk and live in seclusion.[00:04:20] Nathan:Well? Okay. So I had a Twitter thread last week that I did It was on company culture for remote teams, and I've had some that like take off and do well before, but this was like 1300 retweets, like almost a million impressions, a level of taking off. And on one hand I was like, this is amazing.And the other, I like checked the notifications and the replies so many times, and it was fascinating watching it go from like my circle to the next circle, out to the next circle out. And like, we're still in like positive replies, happy. Oh, build on it, refine it. And then like the one circle past that, which it took about, let's say 12 to 18 hours to get to[00:05:06] Nick:Yeah[00:05:06] Nathan:And that was the. This guy's an idiot. I'd never want to work at that company. you know, like all like the, the haters and the non from there, and then it like dies out and this is weird arc of his, we should graph it, but it just made me think of, is this something that I want to do and want, had I added thousands of Twitter followers?I think I could recreate it. Like maybe one in five attempts would like hit that big. Who knows. but I wrestle with the exact question of like, do I want this?[00:05:36] Nick:You and you're, you're just, you're like jacked up on dopamine. You're like, you're, you're sort of you're you, you, you start just imagining all the good things that will come from this. I should be doing this all the time. Like, you know, I, I mean, I think it's, it's sort of pre progressive problems, right?Like, like there's, there's the problem of like having a smaller audience and like putting something out into the ether and then, this, this kind of, getting no response, right. That, that, that's the first thing that, that actually like most people kind of deal with. Right. And, and, and that's, that's a weird thing because it's like, it's like, you're, you're then judging the quality of your ideas based on the ability of, based on basically your, your audience's response and, and realizing like, you're not actually talking to your audience, you're talking to.Subsection that Twitter has decided that you can talk to at that specific point in time. And so, and then you're basically judging your own ideas based off that. And if, if your idea is like, I think, I think when you hit a certain bar of audience, like you can, you can share ideas that are, pretty complex and nuanced and like you'll, you'll find some, some sort of interest for it and it has a potential to take off, but like there there's stuff where if it's kind of interesting and nuanced there, isn't really kind of a built in audience for it.And people don't really have the time to like always dig in and kind of engage and try to like, find what's at the kernel of, it's why I like newsletters a lot more than I like tweeting. But, but, but, but I think, I think what you're, you know, then there's, there's, there's the problem where once you get big enough, like you're now being your ideas are being put in front of a bunch of people who like you didn't intend them for.And those people for some reason have decided to invite into their lives, like conflict with strangers on the internet, because[00:07:19] Nathan:That's like a primary goal,[00:07:21] Nick:Right, right. It's like, it's it. It's what gives them a great day. Right. And, and, and so, so yeah, it's, it's such a weird thing. And so I, like, I mean, I, I think about this with like, I equate Twitter, often to, to kind of, like refined sugar, right.With refined sugar, right. It's it's, it's what we call supernormal stimuli. Right. It, it, it, or super, super normal stimulus. and, and what that is, is basically something that like replaces some natural, like evolutionary desire you have with something kind of artificial that just sends your brain on like overdrive seeking that thing, seeking that thing over and over.And, and that is. That's what Twitter is. It's, it's, it's refined status instead of refined sugar. And that refined status is like, it just, it takes this thing that you normally do, which is like seek, prestige from your, your tribal group, which was a really good thing to do to make sure that you, you know, ate a good meal.And it, and it puts that into, into this crazy overdrive and it like, it centers your brain around it, and it's, it's such a, it's a really powerful thing. And so I, you know, again, right, it's like, there's all these great gifts that come from Twitter and then there's, then there are all these drawbacks and it's, it's almost like perfect equilibrium of, should you do it or should you not?And I don't begrudge anyone either way for their decision.[00:08:46] Nathan:What I always wonder is if I could only have the benefits, like, is there a way let's say that you don't doom scroll Twitter with the latest news and whatever's going wrong, or whatever, latest Twitter fight there is. Maybe you do in a separate app publish these like smart tweets or brilliant threads that are going to get all this attention.And you do one of those every day, but then like you jump in an hour later and respond to a bunch of comments and then like the next day you do it again for 30 minutes and then like, that's it. And you just bat, like, there is this world where you could own Twitter rather than Twitter owning you, but like, are you capable of it?Do you have the self-discipline to pull that off?[00:09:33] Nick:Totally. And, and I, and I think, I think like, you know, I I've talked, I think Julian about this and I think he uses like tweet deck for it. And I think, I think there are ways you can do it. Right. I like for awhile, I was good at like, I would tweet in the morning and then I would like uninstalled the app off my phone.So I wouldn't look at it. and like, there are things that you can do. it's just, it's just really hard because I think to some degree what Twitter, rewards, especially when, when you're on the audience building path. Right. I think when you're like, tens of thousand or hundreds of thousands of followers, you, you actually have a lot more leeway to do what you want.Because, because like, you're just, it's likely that your tweets will work, but like when you're building your ions, there's, there's something that like, it's sort of like, there's a Turing test that's happening, right. People are sort of looking, are you an engaged human being? Cause I I've I've I knew some people who sort of, they, they schedule and preplan all their tweets and like, and to some degree they, they just, they don't hit, they don't work because it doesn't feel real time.They're responding in real time. So like[00:10:35] Nathan:Out of pace. You're out of touch with what's happening with.[00:10:38] Nick:Exactly And so, and so it's, it's sort of, Twitter's kind of like looking for these weird signs of life. So I think it's, I think it's doable. There, there must be some way to do this, but, it's tough. I think the, the other, the other thing that Twitter did to me, that I, disliked is, it makes me feel like my relationships are very transactional because you have these likes retweets, and like these, these, Very clear, like signals of engagement.You, you start to like, or I start to like, to like keep score. Right. And, and I, and I don't, I like, I don't do that anywhere else in life. I think a good, like obviously good relationships tend to start out transactional and then like, they, you kind of forget what the transactions are and like that, that's what creates a close friendship where like, look like you may have paid from the last time I paid for you this time.It doesn't really matter anymore because we transacted so many times, but, but Twitter, for some reason, the score always feels out there. And, and so that was, that's really been like a little bit of a red flag to me. And I, I I try to keep a generous mindset and a generous spirit on Twitter, but I find it harder than in real life.[00:11:52] Nathan:That makes sense to me. So maybe taking a step back, and maybe we'll wrestle with some of these, like to grow an audience or not to grow an audience questions[00:12:00] Nick:Sure[00:12:02] Nathan:What was the thing that, sparked for you? I'm like, I'm going to go start a sub stack. I'm going to actively work to build an audience.[00:12:10] Nick:Yeah, I, so I was writing on, on medium starting in like 2013, maybe. Um and and really got a lot out of it. I, I started my career out as a, as a screenwriter, so I was planning to go into the TV industry and like, and, and for, you know, for, for many reasons, found that to be, a path where like, you didn't really control your destiny.I saw I met lots of, you know, mid thirties, you know, production assistants who were slightly bitter. And then, so I just kind of realized like, this, this wasn't exactly a good path, for me. And so, but I, I wanted to kind of keep that like, that creativity, that like interaction with an audience, I think, you know, it, it was.And found that in writing. And so And so started publishing on medium. Um we was a great experience in terms of how quick it was to publish, but like the distribution of publishing a medium sucks, right? Like, you're you you, you publish ones and then like you spam all your friends and like, you're, you're just, you're working super hard to like push this thing and promote it.And I was like, there's gotta be some way that's a little bit easier. and so I actually ended up in, I think I took, I took Tiago Forte is building a second brain course that kind of like, magically grandfathered me in somehow to like David Pearl's first um uh cohort or Write of Passage, which was awesome And like, I would say, like, I took a lot out of that, but like the biggest thing was, was like start a newsletter. and so basically I started out, I think I started out with a review even. but but anyway like started publishing. Opted in when I knew onto the email list, which I'm sure they, they may or may not appreciate it, but this is before there were tons of sales tax out.And so I felt like it wasn't, it wasn't that crazy. I probably wouldn't have done that in like 20, 20, but, but w really wanted like a way to like, continually kind of interact with my audience without having to worry about like, you know, just, just kind of constantly doing the heavy promotion work.Um now that's because I now you know posts just as a part of medium but but at least there's those sort of a built in audience that kind of grows over time that you kind of keep with you. and, and so. doing that, it was kind of it's kind of a mix of for work and for life.I, I was, at the time, the managing partner of a, of a, uh immersive education program called Tradecraft. And like we, we would help people make sort of complex career transitions into the startup world. And and so a lot of what I was writing was kind of about that. It was about careers. but it also tied in with, with kind of deep interests.It was sort of why I took the role in the first place. and, and what I found when I, when I moved from Tradecraft over to Guild was like that kind of nicely traveled with me. and, and I think there's, there's something, something really nice about a newsletter, being a kind of an appendage to your career, where, like it expands your professional identity to a certain degree.You, you can become a little bit more than just your job, especially working for, like, like a single individual company, especially if you're, if, if the company is larger you, have to deal with a lot of like coordination challenges. there there's a lot of bureaucracy that happens at a company And one of the nice things about having a newsletter is you are in charge of it. It's like you're the CEO of it. the product ships, when you choose to ship it and you have complete editorial say over it, and the distribution that you put into it is what you get out of it. And and there's something really nice about that.It helped me kind of identify as a person who who, ships a lot, even when, sometimes, you know, you know, you you have to work on something at at work that takes a long time.[00:16:12] Nathan:Have you found a dress core even a strong correlation between the effort that you put in to your newsletter and your audience growth and the results that you get out, or does it feel like a more tenuous connection?[00:16:24] Nick:I think, I think there is a pretty good, like w w when I think a post is going to really hit it usually does and so I would say like, like when I put effort into, into writing something really good, I think usually it meets it meets or exceeds my expectations. And when, and when I feel like something is, I'm kind of honing in on, on a, on a post, like usually I get that too.So I think what, what can also happen. You know, sometimes you post something to hacker news and it turns out it's somehow on the front page and like that your audience growth spikes, or like you get featured in someone else's newsletter and your audience grows spikes. And like, there there's a lot of activities that like, you know, I'm not doing directly to promote it, but but it just sort of, um you know, happens in a nice way.And so that's happened, you know, more than a few times and like, that's a pretty neat thing, but like, I think to some degree that comes from just trying a lot of different things and then like, there's sort of like a, a second order effect of some of those things really, you know, hitting it off.[00:17:28] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's that's right. I knew in the early days of starting my newsletter, I felt a strong correlation between what I was working on and like the effort that I put in and the results that I got out, been been interested well at the time I do like a really epic blog post where I put of effort, you know, we're kind of the, for, you know, off and on for weeks or months and like really a hundred and get friends to read it, all of that.Those pretty much always do really well. But what I'm surprised by is sometimes the throwaway posts really, throwing it. Like, it's a simple idea that you flushed out into a post and you were. Hey, it's Tuesday. I got to get something out. Like it's sort of in that[00:18:09] Nick:Totally[00:18:09] Nathan:Sometimes those really hit.Sometimes they actually resonate. Have you had some of those that were like easy easy ones ones that hit?[00:18:18] Nick:So the, publishing cadence is I do, I do two, two posts a month and one a and it used to be, it used to be one post a month. And then I basically separated out into two. Cause I realized like it was too much to kind of condense into, into one post. And like, I wasn't getting the. The, as many eyeballs on like the second half, so decide to pull them apart.One is kind of one big essay. And the second is a, is is of like a, a But I think of it as like, as like I do pretty deep them. So it's actually of like a, here's what this is about. And a little bit more like, here's what this made me think about.And And, the, the essay is, I always spend a good amount of time on them. or at least this year I've spent a good amount time[00:19:05] Nathan:On all of them two hours, 20 hours, 200 hours?[00:19:11] Nick:2020 is probably probably closest. a really slow writer. And so, and so, like, I, I do, I mean, I like like write and like re-edit the first paragraph, 20 onto the next And likeI don't either Yeah The the the the the, the, top of the like, it's like a then like the last paragraph gets like one glance and I'm like, God, get this thing from Um don't and I I that is the wrong thing to do, yet, somehow I do that anyway. but, but, so, so those, those posts, they tend to get, of. You know, time and care. and then what'll happen is sometimes the, the ones that are like the link roundups, like will, will be very spiky.And I I'll spend, you know, that's, that's a little bit more like a three hour thing, um or four hours or something like that. and yeah, so, and then, and then I had, I had a, a, something that I was doing when I was interviewing folks, I call it the key ring where it was like a pretty structured interview that I would do where I asked the same questions over and over again.That was, that was fun. It, it, it started taking a long time to like do the back and forth. And so I'm putting that on pause for the moment. I may pick it back up again. those are fun just cause you can, you can feature someone that, that you like and get a chance to just and hang out It's kinda like[00:20:40] Nathan:Yeah. Those are always interesting to me. Cause I, I think about that on this podcast of asking the same questions, which I know New, I riff on the questions too or elementBut if you did, in theory, if you're like, did you grow from a hundred subscribers to a thousand subscribers in your newsletter?And you asked that to every single person, then you could compile that over 40 episodes or 40 newsletters or whatever. like, Hey, here's a guide on how to do it. And like, I pulled it from a whole bunch of sources. So that part of like standardized questions intrigues me. don't love it the live, know, version of a or newsletter where it's like, okay, it's too formulaic.People have done super well with us formulaic, like, John Lee Dumas, who did the Podcast entrepreneur on fire. Like he went all out. He was like, this will be 20 minute episodes, we're going to of release one a day, seven days a week and like works for him. I have no desire to do that, you[00:21:36] Nick:Totally[00:21:38] Nathan:Yeah, I don't know. you think about the repurposing side of content like that, or is it more just about the, the upfront.[00:21:45] Nick:I'm at repurposing and, and I, it's something that I, have like a psychological hangup about it. Like I always kind of feel like I need to be just like moving on to the next thing. The next thing, like I've, I've tried like going back and like, be like, oh, I should mind this thing for some, some tweets.And it always feels weird to do. And like, I want to write my Roundup, but I think, I think what I've just recognized as. Another reason why I write the newsletter is like, I want an excuse to have interesting new thoughts each month. I want essentially a performance, right. Where like, we're like, there is a moment where like, if I, if I hadn't been like reading and thinking each month, like, there is a moment that it will, that I will be embarrassed if I don't do that.And like that, that's the way I think about the newsletter. And so, and so repurposing content would be something it's almost like an admission of defeat. which, which I don't is is other people should think but that's an area of my head. And so, and so I think it just like, I need to be onto doing the next thing.There's a bunch of stuff where like, I would love to, I love ways to use the archives, my newsletter better. I think actually like stuff like this is a fun way to do it. Like through a articles and I was like, oh, there's there's stuff I can, I can reference from those. Um but it's it's, it's tough.[00:23:05] Nathan:That makes sense. Okay. So let's talk cadence for a second because this is one of the most popular, common, I don't know, questions that I get from people starting newsletters. Is there, like it should be daily right now, weekly, monthly, twice a month. Can I just do quarterly? Can I grow an audience for the quarterly newsletter?You've settled on twice a month? What was the thought that went into that? And, and what's your present cons on, on that particular.[00:23:33] Nick:I think. I mean, one of the weird things, which I'm like, I don't think it's just me, but like, like, it was like, when you, when you release a newsletter issue, like you naturally lose subscribers, but like, like, like people are reminded that like, they're like, know you have yeah You have keys to their inbox and they're like, like, why why did I let this And so and so like and so ideally like that, you know what I mean, then that's gonna have a rude awakening for, I think, I think people who are like, oh, this, this thing just goes on autopilot. but, but you need something that like is going to generate more new subscribers than it will lose subscribers because I'm a slow writer, like my, my ability to write something that I think is going to generate new subscribers is like twice a month. And like, and, and, if, and if I was, you know, Paki and Mario there, I don't know how fast they are, but like they are, they're dedicated.They can crank out some ungodly number of words, you know, once a week, twice a week, which is super impressive. And I think if I was them, I would do that. And like, you know, I, I love still like Seth Godin writes, like, you know, I feel like he writes every day. And I think so I think if you're, if you're capable of doing that, like, and, and, and doesn't lose subscribers, then like do it and set an appointment.And I think all those things are really nice, but for me, it's like, how do I make sure that like, one it's kinda, it's kinda manageable with a, with like a full-time job, which is the way I've been doing it for a long time. Right. and need to, I think, um you know, there, there are, there are weirdnesses of having a newsletter, any full-time job at the same time.And one of those is like, You are publishing, like if your hobby was sea kayaking, right? Like, like you could do that with no one knowing that you were doing it. Right. And like, and, and there's, there's nothing weird about that. Or like running a marathon or something like that. like it's clearly the thing you're doing on the side, writing a newsletter is like, it's it's knowledge work that is like akin to, to, type of work that you might do in an office Right Coding[00:25:41] Nathan:Marketing copywriting, whatever your your day job[00:25:44] Nick:A hundred percent. And like, and like, if you're putting that out on LinkedIn, like, you know, your managers managers are seeing it and like, and so there's, there's just like, like doing that every day would be, a weird would feel weird to me even if, even if no one else felt weird about and so, and so I feel like twice a month it feels, feels good to me.It's also, it also just like keeps me excited to keep, to keep at it versus making feel like it's like a daily or weekly chore. And I have like a day off, I have a week off in between so that I can like, you know, spend the weekend, not writing if I want to, which is nice.[00:26:23] Nathan:Yeah. I like the idea of timing it to your, like your cadence as a writer. What advice would you have to someone who's in that position of, building audience on the side there, maybe they're doing it secretly at first where they're like awkward about it's this may maybe self promotional, but, but at some point, if you get to any scale right. will either you'll tell people at work about it or they'll find out about it in some way, hopefully be supportive, but I don't know. What advice do you give to someone who's in that[00:26:54] Nick:First, acknowledge that there is weirdness to it. Like there, are, like there are inherent trade-offs to everything and like, and like there is there's weirdness and if, and if you're your, like the, the company I've been working for Guild, like they, like everyone has been more than supportive at it, but, of the, the work and like, but I still have a weird complex about it.You know, I think part of the reason I ended up getting the job was because of, because of the newsletter, some of the stuff I publish of like, you know, shaped our marketing strategy. So there were things where like, I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them.Like, you know, whenever I talk about work a lot and whenever I talk about hiring, I mentioned Guild's hiring, Like there, there are, there are things that I do to just try to like, make sure that it still feels worth the company's Weill. And also, like, I think, I think I try to bring in ID.Like I try to have ideas that are useful to what I do at work. so I I wrote this, this piece on, platform branding, which was all about, companies that essentially used their employees to build audiences that, also benefit the companyAnd like, you know, we, ended up using that strategy at Guild which, which was, which was cool.And like that ended up being the strategy doc to some degree, around it, which was cool. And so so so, there's there, there's like ways that you can. think um you bring that in that that are, that valuable. And so I try to sort of look for those things. I, but I think, you know, acknowledged right.That there's, good writing is vulnerable and sometimes it's weird to be vulnerable in front of your colleagues. and, and like it's naturally an attention seeking activity. And if like, if like there's someone at work feels weird about you, like, will be, you know, something that they can talk about, the proverbial water cooler about like, you know, why, why you're not doing your job and you're, you're off writing these letters So so there's there there's weirdness, but like, I think if you can make, if you can allow your company to benefit from the audience you are growing, I think that tends to be a pretty good fit[00:29:12] Nathan:What that made me think of is basically it's going to accelerate or, magnify, whatever someone already thinks of you. So for example, if someone already thinks, like, I don't know, next kind of. he just doesn't contribute that much. Like is he even working half the time then if they publishing once a week, then they're like, see proof of what I already thought. if like the executive at the company is like, Nick is one of the best hires we've ever made. Oh. And look now he's like publishing and rhinos. Like he's a thought leader as well. Like whatever they think is just going to accelerate more. And so maybe it's looking what reputation you already have.[00:29:51] Nick:A hundred percent and it's like, it's like, I mean, the way I see it, and this is kind of what I wrote about in the platform, branding thing is like, I actually think that, having a bunch of employees who are, in a creator type role, um it's like underdeveloped marketing channel. Like you essentially, you have these people who have.Hey, like, I'm going to, going to take my scarcest asset my time give it to this company. and and and now I'm going to build relationships with, with all of these thousands of people who, who listen to these ideas and like, and like that sort of just gives positive energy to the company. So, so actually, like when you compare it, even to like a, a side project that you're coding nights and weekends, I actually think, I think companies should be really supportive of, of, of kind of audience building on the side because it really can benefit them but, but people naturally have a, there's there's a weird feeling about it. And so, and so you have to like, especially as a company, You know, like our, our CEO is, is, is really good at building her own audience on LinkedIn. And I think that gives everyone else some permission to like, you know write vulnerable and things like that.So I think, but I think it, it is, it is a really important thing to be able to have this kind of a group of people who are increasing the company's sort of surface area in Serendip.[00:31:23] Nathan:Yep. I like that. I've wondered about doing something like that for ConvertKit. We have a handful of people on the team who are very prolific creators, for the two myself and then, our creative director, Charlie, frankly, she has like followers on YouTube and a popular channel and all of that.There's a handful of other people who have podcasts and are, are active on Twitter. Our product managers are quite active when you talk to them about things related to ConvertKit, you know, they're like active with customers, but I haven't, or we haven't taken this approach like fast or on deck, or I'm trying to think who else does it, but, but these companies where they're like, okay, there's 15 of us and we're all going to.Become Twitter famous, you know, or start our thing and we'll all drive back. Is it a strategy that you think works well?[00:32:17] Nick:The, the best example of this actually think is, I think on-deck did it, did it really has done it really well on Twitter Um I think gong is actually probably my favorite example. Um especially from a B2B what they do is like is all of their salespeople are out there, like posting content on LinkedIn, but it's not like how great gong is.Almost has nothing to do with gum. It's like you know, an a I'm I'm I'm grinding today. Can't wait to get off for the weekend. It's like, it's like, it, it, it sort of, embodying kind of this, this, like this, the sales lifestyle. Right. And, and, and the, the engagement they get is, is crazy.Right. And like, and that, the thing is, if, so, so there's sort of like, there's kind of like, you can build lifestyle influencers among your employees Right But you can also. Like this idea of building up someone who is, who is a, I know this is kind of a gross word, but thought leader in the, in the, space you're, you're excited about.People kind of come to them, they build affinity with them. And I think you, you can build individuals as marketing channels where like starts out where like someone's reading your posts on LinkedIn. maybe that person hosts a, a kind of invite only webinar for, for the people who engage most of them on LinkedIn.So, so then you're building sort of deeper affinity towards that person. And, and as, as you go down the sales funnel um like marketing and sales, you actually transfer that affinity over to the company as, as like they get into the sale process. from kind of a B2B side, but like, I think you can do it also from a B to C.[00:33:49] Nathan:Do you think that a company like gone. Hired people are good at that and encouraged it, or do you think they like had the people that they hired and said like, okay everyone, this is now what we're doing. a playbook, here's best practices. Here's a slack channel where you can talk about what's working.What's not, but like we're this now. Get on board.[00:34:11] Nick:This is, would be a hundred percent pure speculation. What is, is someone at gong started doing this one of their salespeople and started crushing it. And they're, you know, director of marketing was smart enough to. Hey could be doing a lot like, and B, because it's their salespeople who do it, right.A natural incentive to do it. And so, you know, I would imagine they probably brought on a copywriter and said, Hey, if you need help, you know, crafting these posts, like you can do that It's just, it's such a, it's such a virtuous right? It's like, it's like, because of the affinity you build with these individuals it translates to the company.And like it just sends it a bat signal out to other people who are like that, who want to build audiences, that like the company will help you do that. And they will be supportive. And like, and again, if we imagine that like, they're like audience is this long-term career mode, it's just like, it's such a great gift.You can give to your employees for them to leave with like you know, like you leave ConvertKit and you have, you know, a hundred thousand subscribers or 10,000 it's like, or whatever. Right. It's, it's, it's as much of a gift as like the salary you're giving them. It's just, we don't think of it that way.Cause it's, it's a weird thing to think about getting. From your company[00:35:27] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that's how we've handled it in that we're very in favor of side projects. We want everyone who wants to, like, we're not gonna force it on. But to have a way to be a, a creator on the, on the side and to have some actual reason to use ConvertKit as a customer. Because it's so different when you're the product and like clicking through the happy path to test something and you're like, Hey guys, it works.Then some customers like this is really frustrating. and so that, like, it's a very different, different, I think that it's just interesting. You're absolutely right about people with that. Like, Matt Reglan, who's been on this show before he was at ConvertKit for years. joined when we were like 20,000 a month in revenues like that. when he eventually moved on to his nets, next thing, you know, he built an, a YouTube audience to like 10,000 subscribers at that point. And that was a whole thing that he'd done a lot with skills he learned at ConvertKit a lot with, you know, our creative director, Charlie, like promoting him and just, all right. But like, it still happens even we've got 70 people on the team and we're talking like six are active in this way. I just wonder how much to encourage it versus how much to just say like, Hey, this is an option if you want it, but like you don't push it any more than that[00:36:51] Nick:I mean, I think one of the interesting things, when you think about like the creator economy is like, I think the creator economy can support a lot of people, but the the challenge is like when you're deciding, should I follow this person? there aren't very good moats in the creator economy. And so and so one of the.Few moats you can have is like companies that you've worked for giving you this brand halo. Right And so, and, and, brand from your company sort of, it says this person might be a little more worth following because someone chose them now, does that true You know, don't think so, but like, it at least sends this signal.And so I think, one, like your brand can do that for, for, for your employees, but also like I think there's a. I think just showing that the company will pour fuel on whatever fire you're starting, I think is like, it's, it's one of the best like employee value props. I think a company can have, It's like, it's like, look the life you want to have. Like, we, want to get you there. like, and like, and I think the kind of people who would come work for ConvertKit it should be that they want to do something in the creator space, because you're serving creators that makes a ton That makes a ton of of sense[00:38:10] Nathan:Yeah. And we've definitely had people that we've hired, who are already creators, and that's grown. So it, an interesting world in all the things that you could do to grow. Like a company or growing audience. I'm not sure that that's the one would pick, but you, you see Morning Brew and, and gong in so many of others doing it and it seems to work, know? So[00:38:33] Nick:Yeah Like, I think it works for like, like select companies in select Right. And like, and there's, and there's probably a channel that works under and like the. way you do it for, you know, for Guild where, like we, you know, we really target, um you know, companies with huge employee populations at the very level Like like we wouldn't do that on, on Twitter. Right. Just doesn't make any sense, but like, would we do it on LinkedIn where like, where, you know, C-suite spends an increasing amount of time and we can directly with those individuals and maybe influence that the five to 10 people that, that matter at those companies with like, you know, one post a week.Totally. so, so it just, it kind of depends on like, um I think companies can, can kind of do it at different levels.[00:39:21] Nathan:So that's interesting of the LinkedIn approach, which I think a lot of creators are either all in, on LinkedIn and loving You know, people have built massive lists over there, or they're like, what's that like, I'll hang out in the Instagram, YouTube, Twitters of the world, you know? but if you imagine that B2B world where let's say I'm, I'm working in sales, either as an executive, trying to get big deals done, or, you know, or as a team member, I have a meeting, we have a great conversation.We connect on LinkedIn, you know, we're now an official connection. And now, even though you're not going to buy my thing now, you're like seeing my content every. Week or every few weeks. And then it's like, oh yeah, you're going to buy that thing from Nathan, you know, whatever B2B tool, like starts to come up.And then when I reach out again and you're like, it's not like, oh yeah, it's that one sales rep that I wasted 20 minutes off on with, you know, six months ago. It's like, oh yeah. I feel like we're friends there. I've learned so much, even though it's just been one to many communication.[00:40:25] Nick:I mean, I think the really powerful thing it's like obviously a sales rep is incentivized to promote the product at company they work for So it's like it's product whether it's in a sales call or on LinkedIn like it will not it will not move the needle for any customer.Because it's sort of priced in that That's what they're expecting. But showing that you are an intellectually interesting person who has deep thoughts about the world, who is, who's a smart person. And then the customer making the connection, man, this smart person out of all the places where they could go work has chosen to work here.[00:41:04] Nathan:Right[00:41:05] Nick:Of something, right. There must be something kind of interesting and special there. And so they built of this affinity and comfort and excitement about you and like, and, and then getting on a sales call with you, you're at this just like this nice advantage, right? You're, you're, you're now slightly a celebrity to them.Right Like and, and there's something, you know, like when your, your email or even your company's email then pops up in their inbox, like it's just that much more likely to open that much more interesting. And sometimes it's, it's those, it's those little things on the margin that can make all the difference.And so I think, especially when you're talking like a, like really big enterprise sales, I actually think it's still, a kind of, underrated strategy.[00:41:48] Nathan:Yeah, sense. talk about a, more from the creator side. Cause that was, know, we went more on the platform company side of the which, you know, someone running a company, I am intrigued in that direction, but I'm curious on the, on the creative side, how do you think about that audience as being for your career and that thing that goes with you as you between roles and giving you a future opportunities and all.[00:42:14] Nick:I think it comes to like writing a newsletter.There's basically three reasons. You'd write a personal newsletter and earliest the way I think about it. Like it's either passion, like, you know, I love cooking and like, this is a way I can express that side of me It's it's profit. I want to actually just make some side income or make this into my full income Or it's General advancement.And maybe the relationship building kind of tithing relationship building probably ties into that. but, but in general, like the, I sort of see one things being being like the reason, like for me, at least for a long time, it's probably been advancement. but, certainly the other two are mixed.Like I'm, you know I'm curious about, you know, turning on the profit spigot out of it And like, it certainly like I wouldn't keep doing it if it didn't hit the passion bucket. and so, and so I think that, that, you have to sort of figure out which of those you're doing. I think, I think like if, if what you want to do, I think most people actually are doing it because they do want new opportunities and relationships.I think actually advancement to me is it's actually, the best reason to do it. Um uh over the other two. And, in that world, like, you kind of want to imagine like, okay, Who is, what kind of job do I want, who is the person that I want to be at some point down the road? Who's the gatekeeper that stands in the way of that.Whether it's like, maybe it's I want to publish a book at some point, right. a publisher stands in the way of that. and so what, what gets this publisher excited? Well, either, maybe I'm writing a newsletter for book publishers and this is the industry standard, but like more likely it's like, it's like, Hey, I built this audience that is then really exciting to a publisher.So-so I or, you know, it's, I want to become a senior engineering manager. and so what's going to be exciting to the VP of engineering who is going to interview me. You know, it, it could be that I have an audience full of engineers, who who like are easy to hire, maybe it's that I just like think in a really deep level about this really complicated problem that is really important to them, but it's, it's sort of like, I think having that, kind of magic gatekeeper mind as as not the person you're necessarily writing for all the time, but the, thing you're trying to build up to, that can be a good north star in that direction.If you're doing this, advancement thing, I still don't think you should pick something that doesn't light you up because it's really, you know, it's really hard to keep doing this, week after week when you're grinding it out for some future version of yourself that you know, may may change.I, I think that, that that tends to be a pretty good path.[00:45:10] Nathan:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and like networking connection and advancement side of things, I think is one of the best reasons to do. A lot of that. I remember like the first conference that I went to after having a blog and it being such a night and day difference. I wasn't even a speaker at this conference, any of that, but people were like wanting to come up and talk to me because of the articles that I've written you.Whereas like months earlier, you know, pre blog, you go to a conference and I was shy and introverted. Like I didn't talk to anybody. And so I was like, wow, because I published words on the internet. People will now do all the work. Like interesting people will come meet me instead of me having to like put out all the work.This is the best leverage ever on the same way, like podcasts and everything else Write being able to, everyone says the Podcast in there for the audience. It is right. You know, thousands of people will listen to this episode. I am more doing it because I get to meet people like you and Kimberly, who we just had on last week.And right. It's just about meeting people. that's so[00:46:09] Nick:It's like it's like you know, like I think with Podcast, it's crazy because you like appear in somebody's ears. Right. You're like, literally like you're right next to their head, you know And like and it's it's, just like, it's this, it's this wild, like intimate relationship, usually, like I'm listening, you know, on, on two X.So everyone sounds smarter than you than they would were listening to them on one X like it's, it's, it's I think publishing and creating content, especially in a world where like we just live more online where like more of our interactions are, are remote. I think it's, it's a, it's a pretty, it's still sort of an underrated hack, especially in, in your career, right?Like you can, you can do. You know, you, you become inter like instantly, someone who someone wants to take a meeting with and like it's those little, like, sort of marginal decisions, right To like chart the course of your career, right? Like, like, did, did this person meet with you or not? Were they predisposed to like you, before you came in and like, you don't actually know which article is going to hit to make them feel that way, or which Podcast is going to, you know, which Podcast you're going to meet, the person who, you know, might be an ex customer or investor or something like that.But like, there's just such a powerful, you know, with that[00:47:26] Nathan:I think one of my favorite examples a people using an interview show or, you know, interviews in general to break into an industry Harry Stebbings, who does 20 minute VC, because I don't know how old he was when he started it, but like 17, maybe I'm not[00:47:42] Nick:Totally[00:47:43] Nathan:nd he's like, I want to break into the world of venture capital and, you know, interviewing all the biggest names at first people were saying yes to him, probably because of his hustle, because he was young.They're just like, sure. I'll take a chance on this kid on, your 20 minute.And[00:47:59] Nick:Now love I love people who have like, a, a 10 step plan for their career. Maybe you just, you just wanted to create a podcast. It was sort of like,[00:48:11] Nathan:Right[00:48:12] Nick:Doing this for fun, but like, not a ton of people have, have a plan. Right. like, like most people are just sort of doing stuff, but like, if you like sit down and just kind of think about it for like, like 20 minutes and you're like, who might, I want to be like, who does that person like, like what would make me credible in that person's eyes?Like, like how could I, you know, do that thing now. So that in two or three years, like, like Harry's, I've been such a good example. Like, I, I think there, there are so many people who, who like, if they, they sat and gave that like 10 minutes and turn Twitter off, like you can just, like, you can do a lot of, you know, good, good strategy there.[00:48:52] Nathan:Well, I think can do it as a method to break into any business. So if we were like, know if you and I were 18 years old and we're like, wouldn't be in the music business or even right. You wanted to go into screenwriting. you with what you know now, and you and I were brainstorming how to get 18 year old you into like screenwriting, we would probably suggest starting a podcast and you interview all the screenings. In some format and it wouldn't result in work, but then you'd imagine we have this network and this work would come from the network and you're like, no direct connection, but then there's a ton of indirect connections that wouldn't have happened without it.[00:49:31] Nick:You know, it's kind of a similar thing. We talked we've dragged them at Twitter at the beginning. Right. Twitter does this service for people that gives them like a feeling of prestige. Right. And like, and, and what you're basically doing is like, it's like, you're giving an audience to people who don't have time to build one for themselves.And like, you know, most of the people who are listening to this podcast are people who are building audiences in, in some way shape or form, but like most people don't do that. Right And and so, and so you can find all sorts of people who are who are just like all the time, who like, would love to sort of rent someone else's audience to build themselves up.And so like, and so you can be then 18 and it's a total hack to be able to sort of bring on this screenwriter, this music industry, executive, this, you know, a VC. Right. And it's just, it's[00:50:23] Nathan:Right It made me realize another person on the ConvertKit team who does this really well is ISA Adney. Who's our storyteller. she used to teach all of our webinars and workshops and, and, is branched into working on like brand development sides as he writes a lot of and else, but her personal audience, let me take a step back.If you talk to her, she's like, know this person, or whoever at Disney or that kind of thing who worked on, you know, and just like the amount of people that she knows in the world of storytelling and film and everything else, you're like, how do you know all these people? like, oh, I interviewed them for my newsletter, you know?And you're just like, wait, what? And it's like, I was going to say cartoonists, but like illustrators from, from will like draw her a birthday card. can tell us just for her, you know? And you're like, how, and, and it just comes from this exact thing of like, oh, I just interviewed them on my newsletter, which is a fantastic newsletter, but it's not like they came on it because she's wildly famous.It's that[00:51:26] Nick:It's incredible. And I like there, there's a couple other people I've seen who have like, who, who sort of, they have their, their, their full-time job, but like, on the side, right? Like, Liz Bostonian, someone I've known for awhile and interviewed, and she, she wrote a book called no hard feelings about emotions at work.She's about to publish her second one and like the way she's just like, she's known by, by all of these people at all these different companies that like her company would be the perfect company to sell in, to sell into. you know, it's just, it's just there. There's. There's so many good things that can come a bit.I think one thing I'd advise to like, w going back to like this, how do you balance a, like a, like a newsletter and a full-time career is like don't work for any company that doesn't value it because because like you know, clearly there are places like Guild, like ConvertKit like there there's so many different companies where like you can go where like, they will appreciate what you're doing.And if you can, if you can, like, ideally, like, let's say you love to write about cooking, right. If you can find a company where like, that is like, like, especially like building an audience around cooking, like it's, you know, a dishware company or whatever it is, like finding that right place for not just you, but your publication, a really underrated thing, because it just makes everything so much smoother to find that right.Manager find that. Right. you know,[00:52:52] Nathan:Yeah. That makes sense. If it's an uphill battle, like find another, another place where that's actually a asset.[00:52:59] Nick:Someone will like it.[00:53:00] Nathan:Yeah, exactly. So maybe before we wrap up, let's talk about the growth side. Cause everyone's thinking about, okay, I have my newsletter and it has 100 subscribers or 500. How do I grow it to that next tier So I'm curious, what are some of the things that have worked for you on, adding 100 or 500 or a thousand subscribers at a time?[00:53:19] Nick:Twitter Twitter. You, you, you can use Twitter.[00:53:22] Nathan:Yeah[00:53:22] Nick:It's It's frought in many ways you can also use LinkedIn. I actually think LinkedIn is, an underrated place to do it. Like it's to me, it's not as stressful to write a LinkedIn post as it is to write. A tweet, it's a little stressful, cause it's like, it's like, definitely definitely to your company And it's a place where you're in professional domain, but especially if your newsletter is somewhat professional, then I think, I think LinkedIn can be a really good place for it. and a little bit less of a pressure-filled way to do it. I probably one of the underrated things now is like, you know, I look at how many discord servers I'm suddenly in, like in in you know, months and like, I think those are probably good places to like promote.I don't think it's, I don't think you can in communities, it's harder to just be promotional. You need to sort of have earned it by, by building relationships. And so, but I think like, you know, I'm, I'm in a writing group called foster, right? Where, where like where, you know that they help with editing and like, and like everyone's sort of publishes their stuff in there, but like that's a great place to like, to, to sort of build a following, especially sort of early on.Obviously you can do things like hit Reddit, hit hacker news, you know, Reddit, I think I've been banned from like, you know, 20 different subreddits for, you know a just posting a blog post, which seemed to me. But, um and then hacker news, right? You, you, you never know. And, and, you know, getting to the top means you're going to get barraged with terrible comments, but, I think ultimately though you kind of want something you can build, right.And this is, this is the, this is the challenge with Twitter, right? It's like, it's like, there is a weirdness about Twitter, but. Building an audience on Twitter Like it's a great top of funnel for a newsletter, and same way with LinkedIn. And so it's hard to totally steer away from those things. I think one thing I'd to try and toy with once I figure out the monetization piece, of my newsletter is I'd like to try paid ads.And there's this weird discomfort with it with it. if what you value is value is, having an audience and people to write to and you want to grow that audience, I actually think it doesn't need to be that literally every person you painstakingly gathered with your blood, sweat, and tears, right.It's it's I think there's, there's other stuff that you can try, but you obviously don't want to be throwing a lot of money down the drain on, building an audience[00:55:53] Nathan:YeahI've, I've done paid ads with good results of four. I have a local newsletter called from Boise, is just for the Boise area. And in the last month we actually went to a thousand subscribers and we doubled to a little over 2000 subscribers, almost entirely with ads. So like no ads to a thousand and, ads worked well, you know, and it helps to have the hyper-local targeting.So I was in the same boat of like, hadn't played with it before. And, you know, at, I think we paid between $2 and two 50 a subscriber,[00:56:25] Nick:Facebook.[00:56:26] Nathan:Yeah, Facebook and Instagram. So we'll play with it more. What are you thinking maybe we'll end on this question. What do you thinking for on the newsletter?What are you paid? Is it a A A book? What other things are coming up?[00:56:39] Nick:It took me a while to find something I was comfortable with on modernization paid, never, appealed that much to me. just because there, there are some people who I like I will pay for their ideas, but like, overwhelmed with Content. that like, usually when I'm paying for, for, for, for a newsletter, it's because I really liked the person, like their, their, just their style of analysis.I can't get anywhere else. but, but, but the competitive dynamics of newsletter sort of, to me, like they'll, they'll kind of always be someone who something close to what you do for free. And so, and so that, that always kinda, didn't appeal to me as much. Like I think of it as like, This audience, that you're kind of building affinity with over time and like, and can you, ideally sort of find, build something or find something that's going to be really valuable to them.So I actually, literally just this morning, teamed up with this, this company called palette, to, I swear, this, this, this time it was not planned. It just, it just happened nicely, to a team at this company called pallet in pallets, been sort job boards with a bunch of and I actually worked with them on this, this kind of beta product that they're working on, which is this idea of talent collectives. And so what we're doing is like, it's like basically job searching really sucks. Like you're filling out tons of applications. You are, waiting for a long time to hear back from companies.If you are highly desirable, you're getting a lot of recruiter spam and they're just like barraging you. so we're going to do, is, is put basically just an air table form where you can say, Hey, like, this is who I am. This is the kind of role I'm looking for. pallet has this, this, all these companies that they are so, so they're going to basically, send people and you can be anonymous if you want to all sorts of stuff, but they're to their partner companies and then and then they'll send you sort of the intro request, like, Hey, you know, do you want to, do you want to chat with ConvertKit right.And, and, and if you do right, we'll, we'll make the intro, but like, you don't have to worry about our recruiter reaching out to you because they've, they've said they won't do that. so yeah, I think it's cool. you know, if, if, if any of the folks listening to this are like, exploring new job opportunity.We'd love you to come check it out. I think it'll be really neat. I think it'll solve a challenge that a lot of people are facing. For me it felt really native. It felt like I didn't want to do a job board because I don't know these companies. I'm doing a newsletter about careers, and it felt really important that I'm sending people to the right place.I said, “Hey, if you sign up for this, and you take one call from a company, I'll do a 30 minute career coaching session with you.” Even though, I'll get paid some commission, if the person goes to one of these companies, I will really try to give them the best advice for them, because that's what I promised to readers.When you're thinking about monetization, it's like find something that feels native, and not weird to your audience. I think sometimes that can be a pure paid subscription, but you can be creative in different stuff.[00:59:51] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's good. Let's leave it there. I'm super excited to see what comes on the monetization side. It's probably the coolest thing about newsletters and audiences that you can monetize different ways.So, where should people go to follow you and follow your writing, and see more about what you're up to?[01:00:07] Nick:You can follow where I have a conflicted relationship, where there are days I will post a tweet, tweet threads, and the next day I'll feel very ashamed of it, but that's @Nick_deWilde. Then the better place to get my thoughts, I would say, is JungleGym.Substack.com.At some point I should probably switch that to ConvertKit, but yeah, that's another time. We'd love that, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun.[01:00:42] Nathan:Yeah, It's been a great conversation and, thanks for coming on, and we'll talk soon.[01:00:47] Nick:Awesome, Nathan.

About NickNick Heudecker leads market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl, the observability pipeline company. Prior to Cribl, Nick spent eight years as an industry analyst at Gartner, covering data and analytics. Before that, he led engineering and product teams at multiple startups, with a bias towards open source software and adoption, and served as a cryptologist in the US Navy. Join Corey and Nick as they discuss the differences between observability and monitoring, why organizations struggle to get value from observability data, why observability requires new data management approaches, how observability pipelines are creating opportunities for SRE and SecOps teams, the balance between budgets and insight, why goats are the world's best mammal, and more.Links: Cribl: https://cribl.io/ Cribl Community: https://cribl.io/community Twitter: https://twitter.com/nheudecker Try Cribl hosted solution: https://cribl.cloud TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted episode is a bit fun because I'm joined by someone that I have a fair bit in common with. Sure, I moonlight sometimes as an analyst because I don't really seem to know what that means, and he spent significant amounts of time as a VP analyst at Gartner. But more importantly than that, a lot of the reason that I am the way that I am is that I spent almost a decade growing up in Maine, and in Maine, there's not a lot to do other than sit inside for the nine months of winter every year and develop personality problems.You've already seen what that looks like with me. Please welcome Nick Heudecker, who presumably will disprove that, but maybe not. He is currently a senior director of market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl. Nick, thanks for joining me.Nick: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. I like playing with people's titles, and you certainly have a lofty one. ‘competitive intelligence' feels an awful lot like jeopardy. What am I missing?Nick: Well, I'm basically an internal analyst at the company. So, I spend a lot of time looking at the broader market, seeing what trends are happening out there; looking at what kind of thought leadership content that I can create to help people discover Cribl, get interested in the products and services that we offer. So, I'm mostly—you mentioned my time in Maine. I was a cryptologist in the Navy and I spent almost all of my time focused on what the bad guys do. And in this job, I focus on what our potential competitors do in the market. So, I'm very externally focused. Does that help? Does that explain it?Corey: No, it absolutely does. I mean, you folks have been sponsoring our nonsense for which we thank you, but the biggest problem that I have with telling the story of Cribl was that originally—initially it was, from my perspective, “What is this hokey nonsense?” And then I learned and got an answer and then finish the sentence with, “And where can I buy it?” Because it seems that the big competitive threat that you have is something crappy that some rando sysadmin has cobbled together. And I say that as the rando sysadmin, who has cobbled a lot of things like that together. And it's awful. I wasn't aware you folks had direct competitors.Nick: Today we don't. There's a couple that it might be emerging a little bit, but in general, no, it's mostly us, and that's what I analyze every day. Are there other emerging companies in the space? Are there open-source projects? But you're right, most of the things that we compete against are DIY today. Absolutely.Corey: In your previous role, which you were at for a very long time in tech terms—which in a lot of other cases is, “Okay, that doesn't seem that long,” but seven and a half years is a respectable stint at a company. And you were at Gartner doing a number of analyst-like activities. Let's start at the beginning because I assure you, I'm asking this purely for the audience and not because I don't know the answer myself, but what exactly is the purpose of an analyst firm, of which Gartner is the most broadly known and, follow up, why do companies care what Gartner thinks?Nick: Yeah. It's a good question, one that I answer a lot. So, what is the purpose of an analyst firm? The purpose of an analyst firm is to get impartial information about something, whether that is supply chain technology, big data tech, human resource management technologies. And it's often difficult if you're an end-user and you're interested in say, acquiring a new piece of technology, what really works well, what doesn't.And so the analyst firm because in the course of a given year, I would talk to nearly a thousand companies and both end-users and vendors as well as investors about what they're doing, what challenges they're having, and I would distill that down into 30-minute conversations with everyone else. And so we provided impartial information in aggregate to people who just wanted to help. And that's the purpose of an analyst firm. Your second question, why do people care? Well, I didn't get paid by vendors.I got paid by the company that I worked for, and so I got to be Tron; I fought for the users. And because I talk to so many different companies in different geographies, in different industries, and I share that information with my colleagues, they shared with me, we had a very robust understanding of what's actually happening in any technology market. And that's uncommon kind of insight to really have in any kind of industry. So, that's the purpose and that's why people care.Corey: It's easy from the engineering perspective that I used to inhabit to make fun of it. It's oh, it's purely justification when you're making a big decision, so if it goes sideways—because find me a technology project that doesn't eventually go sideways—I want to be able to make sure that I'm not the one that catches heat for it because Gartner said it was good. They have an amazing credibility story going on there, and I used to have that very dismissive perspective. But the more I started talking to folks who are Gartner customers themselves and some of the analyst-style things that I do with a variety of different companies, it's turned into, “No, no. They're after insight.”Because it turns out, from my perspective at least, the more that you are focused on building a product that solves a problem, you sort of lose touch with the broader market because the only people you're really talking to are either in your space or have already acknowledged and been right there and become your customer and have been jaded to see things from your point of view. Getting a more objective viewpoint from an impartial third party does have value.Nick: Absolutely. And I want you to succeed, I want you to be successful, I want to carry on a relationship with all the clients that I would speak with, and so one of the fun things I would always ask is, “Why are you asking me this question now?” Sometimes it would come in, they'd be very innocuous;, “Compare these databases,” or, “Compare these cloud services.” “Well, why are you asking?” And that's when you get to, kind of like, the psychology of it.“Oh, we just hired a new CIO and he or she hates vendor X, so we have to get rid of it.” “Well, all right. Let's figure out how we solve this problem for you.” And so it wasn't always just technology comparisons. Technology is easy, you write a check and you hope for the best.But when you're dealing with large teams and maybe a globally distributed company, it really comes down to culture, and personality, and all the harder factors. And so it was always—those were always the most fun and certainly the most challenging conversations to have.Corey: One challenge that I find in this space is—in my narrow niche of the world where I focus on AWS bills, where things are extraordinarily yes or no, black or white, binary choices—that I talked to companies, like during the pandemic, and they were super happy that, “Oh, yeah. Our infrastructure has auto-scaling and it works super well.” And I look at the bill and the spend graph over time is so flat you could basically play a game of pool on top of it. And I don't believe that I'm talking to people who are lying to me. I truly don't believe that people make that decision, but what they believe versus what is evidenced in reality are not necessarily congruent. How do you disambiguate from the stories that people want to tell about themselves? And what they're actually doing?Nick: You have to unpack it. I think you have to ask a series of questions to figure out what their motivation is. Who else is on the call, as well? I would sometimes drop into a phone call and there would be a dozen people on the line. Those inquiry calls would go the worst because everyone wants to stake a claim, everyone wants to be heard, no one's going to be honest with you or with anyone else on the call.So, you typically need to have a pretty personal conversation about what does this person want to accomplish, what does the company want to accomplish, and what are the factors that are pushing against what those things are? It's like a novel, right? You have a character, the character wants to achieve something, and there are multiple obstacles in that person's way. And so by act five, ideally everything wraps up and it's perfect. And so my job is to get the character out of the tree that is on fire and onto the beach where the person can relax.So, you have to unpack a lot of different questions and answers to figure out, well, are they telling me what their boss wants to hear or are they really looking for help? Sometimes you're successful, sometimes you're not. Not everyone does want to be open and honest. In other cases, you would have a team show up to a call with maybe a junior engineer and they really just want you to tell them that the junior engineer's architecture is not a good idea. And so you do a lot of couples therapy as well. I don't know if this is really answering the question for you, but there are no easy answers. And people are defensive, they have biases, companies overall are risk-averse. I think you know this.Corey: Oh, yeah.Nick: And so it can be difficult to get to the bottom of what their real motivation is.Corey: My approach has always been that if you want serious data, you go talk to Gartner. If you want [anec-data 00:09:48] and some understanding, well, maybe we can have that conversation, but they're empowering different decisions at different levels, and that's fine. To be clear, I do not consider Gartner to be a competitor to what I do in any respect. It turns out that I am not very good at drawing charts in varying shades of blue and positioning things just so with repeatable methodology, and they're not particularly good at having cartoon animals as their mascot that they put into ridiculous situations. We each have our portion of the universe, and that's working out reasonably well.Nick: Well, and there's also something to unpack there as well because I would say that people look at Gartner and they think they have a lot of data. To a certain degree they do, but a lot of it is not quantifiable data. If you look at a firm like IDC, they specialize in—like, they are a data house; that is what they do. And so their view of the world and how they advise their clients is different. So, even within analyst firms, there is differentiation in what approach they take, how consultative they might be with their clients, one versus another. So, there certainly are differences that you could find the more exposure you get into the industry.Corey: For a while, I've been making a recurring joke that Route 53—Amazon's managed DNS service—is in fact a database. And then at some point, I saw a post on Reddit where someone said, “Yeah, I see the joke and it's great, but why should I actually not do this?” At which point I had to jump in and say, “Okay, look. Jokes are all well and good, but as soon as people start taking me seriously, it's very much time to come clean.” Because I think that's the only ethical and responsible thing to do in this ecosystem.Similarly, there was another great joke once upon a time. It was an April Fool's Day prank, and Google put out a paper about this thing they called MapReduce. Hilarious prank that Yahoo fell for hook, line, and sinker, and wound up building Hadoop out of it and we're still paying the price for that, years later. You have a bit of a reputation from your time at Gartner as being—and I quote—“The man who killed Hadoop.” What happened there? What's the story? And I appreciate your finally making clear to the rest of us that it was, in fact, a joke. What happened there?Nick: Well, one of the pieces of research that Gartner puts out every year is this thing called a Hype Cycle. And we've all seen it, it looks like a roller coaster in profile; big mountain goes up really high and then comes down steeply, drops into a valley, and then—Corey: ‘the trough of disillusionment,' as I recall.Nick: Yes, my favorite. And then plateaus out. And one of the profiles on that curve was Hadoop distributions. And after years of taking inquiry calls, and writing documents, and speaking with everybody about what they were doing, we realized that this really isn't taking off like everyone thinks it is. Cluster sizes weren't getting bigger, people were having a lot of challenges with the complexity, people couldn't find skills to run it themselves if they wanted to.And then the cloud providers came in and said, “Well, we'll make a lot of this really simple for you, and we'll get rid of HDFS,” which is—was a good idea, but it didn't really scale well. I think that the challenge of having to acquire computers with compute storage and memory again, and again, and again, and again, just was not sustainable for the majority of enterprises. And so we flagged it as this will be obsolete before plateau. And at that point, we got a lot of hate mail, but it just seemed like the right decision to make, right? Once again, we're Tron; we fight for the users.And that seemed like the right advice and direction to provide to the end-users. And so didn't make a lot of friends, but I think I was long-term right about what happened in the Hadoop space. Certainly, some fragments of it are left over and we're still seeing—you know, Spark is going strong, there's a lot of Hive still around, but Hadoop as this amalgamation of open-source projects, I think is effectively dead.Corey: I sure hope you're right. I think it has a long tail like most things that are there. Legacy is the condescending engineering term for ‘it makes money.' You were at Gartner for almost eight years and then you left to go work at Cribl. What triggered that? What was it that made you decide, “This is great. I've been here a long time. I've obviously made it work for me. I'm going to go work at a startup that apparently, even though it recently raised a $200 million funding round”—congratulations on that, by the way—“It still apparently can't afford to buy a vowel in its name.” That's C-R-I-B-L because, of course, it is. Maybe another consonant, while you're shopping. But okay, great. It's oddly spelled, it is hard to explain in some cases, to folks who are not already feeling pain in that space. What was it that made you decide to sit up and, “All right, this is where I want to be?”Nick: Well, I met the co-founders when I was an analyst. They were working at Splunk and oddly enough—this is going to be an interesting transition compared to the previous thing we talked about—they were working on Hunk, which was, let's use HDFS to store Splunk data. Made a lot of sense, right? It could be much more cost-effective than high-cost infrastructure for Splunk. And so they told me about this; I was interested.And so I met the co-founders and then I reconnected with them after they left and formed Cribl. And I thought the story was really cool because where they're sitting is between sources and destinations of observability data. And they were solving a problem that all of my customers had, but they couldn't resolve. They would try and build it themselves. They would look at—Kafka was a popular choice, but that had some challenges for observability data—works fantastically well for application data.And they were just—had a very pragmatic view of the world that they were inhabiting and the problem that they were looking to solve. And it looked kind of like a no-brainer of a problem to solve. But when you double-click on it, when you really look down and say, “All right, what are the challenges with doing this?” They're really insurmountable for a lot of organizations. So, even though they may try and take a DIY approach, they often run into trouble after just a few weeks because of all the protocols you have to support, all the different data formats, and all the destinations, and role-based access control, and everything else that goes along with it.And so I really liked the team. I thought the product inhabited a unique space in the market—we've already talked about the lack of competitors in the space—and I just felt like the company was on a rocket ship—or is a rocket ship—that basically had unbounded success potential. And so when the opportunity arose to join the team and do a lot of the things I like doing as an analyst—examining the market, talking to people looking at competitive aspects—I jumped at it.Corey: It's nice when you see those opportunities that show up in front of you, and the stars sort of align. It's like, this is not just something that I'm excited about and enthused about, but hey, they can use me. I can add something to where they're going and help them get there better, faster, sooner, et cetera, et cetera.Nick: When you're an analyst, you look at dozens of companies a month and I'd never seen an opportunity that looked like that. Everything kind of looked the same. There's a bunch of data integration companies, there's a bunch of companies with Spark and things like that, but this company was unique; the product was unique, and no one was really recognizing the opportunity. So, it was just a great set of things that all happen at the same time.Corey: It's always fun to see stars align like that. So—Nick: Yeah.Corey: —help me understand in a way that can be articulated to folks who don't have 15 years of grumpy sysadmin experience under their belts, what does Cribl do?Nick: So, Cribl does a couple of things. Our flagship product is called LogStream, and the easiest way to describe that is as an abstraction between sources and destinations of data. And that doesn't sound very interesting, but if you, from your sysadmin background, you're always dealing with events, logs, now there's traces, metrics are also hanging around—Corey: Oh, and of course, the time is never synchronized with anything either, so it's sort of a giant whodunit, mystery, where half the eyewitnesses lie.Nick: Well, there's that. There's a lot of data silos. If you got an agent deployed on a system, it's only going to talk to one destination platform. And you repeat this, maybe a dozen times per server, and you might have 100,000 or 200,000 servers, with all of these different agents running on it, each one locked into one destination. So, you might want to be able to mix and match that data; you can't. You're locked in.One of the things LogStream does is it lets you do that exact mixing and matching. Another thing that this product does, that LogStream does, is it gives you ability to manage that data. And then what I mean by that is, you may want to reduce how much stuff you're sending into a given platform because maybe that platform charges you by your daily ingest rates or some other kind of event-based charges. And so not all that data is valuable, so why pay to store it if it's not going to be valuable? Just dump it or reduce the amount of volume that you've got in that payload, like a Windows XML log.And so that's another aspect that it allows you to do, better management of that stuff. You can redact sensitive fields, you can enrich the data with maybe, say, GeoIPs so you know what kind of data privacy laws you fall under and so on. And so, the story has always been, land the data in your destination platform first, then do all those things. Well, of course, because that's how they charge you; they charge you based on daily ingest. And so now the story is, make those decisions upfront in one place without having to spread this logic all over, and then send the data where you want it to go.So, that's really, that's the core product today, LogStream. We call ourselves an observability pipeline for observability data. The other thing we've got going on is this project called AppScope, and I think this is pretty cool. AppScope is a black box instrumentation tool that basically resides between the application runtime and the kernel and any shared libraries. And so it provides—without you having to go back and instrument code—it instruments the application for you based on every call that it makes and then can send that data through something like LogStream or to another destination.So, you don't have to go back and say, “Well, I'm going to try and find the source code for this 30-year old c++ application.” I can simply run AppScope against the process, and find out exactly what that application is doing for me, and then relay that information to some other destination.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Liquibase. If you're anything like me, you've screwed up the database part of a deployment so severely that you've been banned from touching every anything that remotely sounds like SQL, at at least three different companies. We've mostly got code deployments solved for, but when it comes to databases we basically rely on desperate hope, with a roll back plan of keeping our resumes up to date. It doesn't have to be that way. Meet Liquibase. It is both an open source project and a commercial offering. Liquibase lets you track, modify, and automate database schema changes across almost any database, with guardrails to ensure you'll still have a company left after you deploy the change. No matter where your database lives, Liquibase can help you solve your database deployment issues. Check them out today at liquibase.com. Offer does not apply to Route 53.Corey: I have to ask because I love what you're doing, don't get me wrong. The counterargument that always comes up in this type of conversation is, “Who in their right mind looks at the state of the industry today and says, ‘You know what we need? That's right; another observability tool.'” what differentiates what you folks are building from a lot of the existing names in the space? And to be clear, a lot of the existing names in the space are treating observability simply as hipster monitoring. I'm not entirely sure they're wrong, but that's a different fight for a different time.Nick: Yeah. I'm happy to come back and talk about that aspect of it, too. What's different about what we're doing is we don't care where the data goes. We don't have a dog in that fight. We want you to have better control over where it goes and what kind of shape it's in when it gets there.And so I'll give an example. One of our customers wanted to deploy a new SIEM—Security Information Event Management—tool. But they didn't want to have to deploy a couple hundred-thousand new agents to go along with it. They already had the data coming in from another agent, they just couldn't get the data to it. So, they use LogStream to send that data to their new desired platform.Worked great. They were able to go from zero to a brand new platform in just a couple days, versus fighting with rolling out agents and having to update them. Did they conflict with existing agents? How much performance did it impact on the servers, and so on? So, we don't care about the destination. We like everybody. We're agnostic when it comes to where that data goes. And—Corey: Oh, it's not about the destination. It's about the journey. Everyone's been saying it, but you've turned it into a product.Nick: It's very spiritual. So, we [laugh] send, we send your observability data on a spiritual [laugh] journey to its destination, and we can do quite a bit with it on the way.Corey: So, you said you offered to go back as well and visit the, “Oh, it's monitoring, but we're going to call it observability because otherwise we get yelled out on Twitter by Charity Majors.” How do you view that?Nick: Monitoring is the things you already know. Right? You know what questions you want to ask, you get an alert if something goes out of bounds or something goes from green to red. Think about monitoring as a data warehouse. You shape your data, you get it all in just the right condition so you can ask the same question over and over again, over different time domains.That's how I think about monitoring. It's prepackaged, you know exactly what you want to do with it. Observability is more like a data lake. I have no idea what I'm going to do with this stuff. I think there's going to be some signals in here that I can use, and I'm going to go explore that data.So, if monitoring is your known knowns, observability is your unknown unknowns. So, an ideal observability solution gives you an opportunity to discover what those are. Once you discover them. Great. Now, you can talk about how to get them into your monitoring system. So, for me, it's kind of a process of discovery.Corey: Which makes an awful lot of sense. The problem I've always had with the monitoring approach is it falls into this terrible pattern of enumerate the badness. In other words, “Imagine all the ways that this system can fail,” and then build an alerting that lets you know when any of those things happen. And what happens next is inevitable to anyone who's ever dealt with the tricksy devils known as computers, and what happens, of course, is that they find new ways to fail and you generally get to add to the list of things to check for, usually at two o'clock in the morning.Nick: On a Sunday.Corey: Oh, absolutely. It almost doesn't matter when. The real problem is when these things happen, it's, “What day, actually, is it?” And you have to check the calendar to figure out because your third time that week being woken up in the dead of night. It's like an infant but less than endearing.So, that has been the old school approach, and there's unfortunately still an awful lot of, we'll just call it nonsense, in the industry that still does exactly the same thing, except now they call it observability because—hearkening back to earlier in our conversation—there's a certain point in the Gartner Hype Cycle that we are all existing within. What's the deal with that?Nick: Well, I think that there are a lot of entrenched interests in the monitoring space. And so I think you always see this when a new term comes around. Vendors will say, “All right, well, there's a lot of confusion about this. Let me back-fit my product into this term so that I can continue to look like I'm on the leading edge and I'm not going to put any of my revenues in jeopardy.” I know, that's a cynical view, but I've seen it over and over again.And I think that's unfortunate because there's a real opportunity to have a better understanding of your systems, to better understand what's happening in all the containers you're deploying and not tearing down the way that you should, to better understand what's happening in distributed systems. And it's going to be a real missed opportunity if that is what happens. If we just call this ‘Monitoring 2.0' it's going to leave a lot of unrealized potential in the market.Corey: The big problem that I've seen in a lot of different areas is—I'll be direct—consolidation where you have a company that starts to do a thing—and that's great—and then they start doing other things that are tied to it. And in turn, they start, I guess, gathering everything in the ecosystem. If you break down observability into various constituent parts, I—know, I know, the pillars thing is going to upset people; ignore that for now—and if you have an offering that's weak in a particular area, okay, instead of building it organically into the product, or saying, “Yeah, that's not what we do,” there's an instinct to acquire a company or build that functionality out. And it turns out that we're building what feels the lot to me like the SaaS equivalent of multifunction printers: they can print, they can scan, they can fax, and none of those three very well, so it winds up with something that dissatisfies everyone, rather than a best-of-breed solution that has a very clear and narrow starting and stopping point. How do you view that?Nick: Well, what you've described is a compromise, right? A compromise is everyone can work and no one's happy. And I think that's the advantage of where LogStream comes in. The reality is best-of-breed. Most enterprises today have 30 or more different monitoring tools—call them observability tools if you want to—and you will never pry those tools from the dead hands of those sysadmins, DevOps engineers, SREs, et cetera.They all integrate those tools into how they work and their processes. So, we're living in a best-of-breed world. It's like that in data and analytics—my former beat—and it's like that in monitoring and observability. People really gravitate towards the tools they like, they gravitate towards the tools their friends are using. And so you need a way to be able to mix and match that stuff.And just because I want to stay [laugh] on message, that's really where the LogStream story kind of blends in because we do that; we allow you to mix and match all those different pieces.Corey: Joke's on you. I use Nagios and I have no friends. I'm not convinced those two things are entirely unrelated, but here we are. So here's, I guess, the big burning question that a lot of folks—certainly not me, but other undefined folks, ‘lots of people are saying'—so you built something interesting that actually works. I want to be clear on this.I have spoken to customers of yours. They swear by it instead of swearing at it, which happens with other companies. Awesome. You have traction, you're moving forward, things are going great. Here's $200 million is the next part of that story, and on some level, my immediate reaction—which does need updating, let's be clear here—is like, all right.I'm trying to build a product. I can see how I could spend a few million bucks. “Well, what can you do with I don't know, 100 times that?” My easy answer is, “Something monstrous.” I don't believe that is the case here. What is the growth plan? What are you doing that makes having that kind of a war chest a useful and valuable thing to have?Nick: Well, if you speak with the co-founders—and they've been open about this—we view ourselves as a generational company. We're not just building one product. We've been thinking about, how do we deliver on observability as this idea of discovery? What does that take? And it doesn't mean that we're going to be less agnostic to other destinations, we still think there's an incredible amount of value there and that's not going away, but we think there's maybe an interim step that we build out, potentially this idea of an observability data lake where you can explore these environments.Certainly, there's other types of options in the space today. Most of them are SQL-based, which is interesting because the audience that uses monitoring and observability tools couldn't care less about SQL right? They want search, they want regex, and so you've got to have the right tool for that audience. And so we're thinking about what that looks like going forward. We're doubling down on people.Surprisingly, this is a very—like anything else in software, it is people-intensive. And so certainly those are other aspects that we're exploring with the recent investment, but definitely, multiproduct company is our future and continued expansion.Corey: Expansion is always a fun one. It's the idea of, great, are you looking at going deeper into the areas you're already active within, or is it more of a, “Ah, so we've solved the, effectively, log routing problem. That's great. Let's solve other problems, too.” Or is it more of a, I guess, a doubling down and focusing on what's working? And again, that probably sounds judgmental in a way I don't intend it to at all. I just have a hard time contextualizing that level of scale coming from a small company perspective the way that I do.Nick: Yeah. Our plan is to focus more intently on the areas that we're in. We have a huge basis of experience there. We don't want to be all things to all people; that dilutes the message down to nothing, so we want to be very specific in the audiences we talk to, the problems we're trying to solve, and how we try to solve them.Corey: The problem I've always found with a lot of the acquisition, growth thrashing of—let me call it what I think it is: companies in decline trying to strain relevancy, it feels almost like a, “We don't see a growth strategy. So, we're going to try and acquire everything that hold still long enough, at some level, trying to add more revenue to the pile, but also thrashing in the sense of, okay. They're going to teach us how to do things in creative, awesome ways,” but it never works out that way. When you have a 50,000 person company acquiring a 200 person company, invariably the bigger culture is going to dominate. And I don't understand why that mistake seems to continually happen again, and again, and again.And people think I'm effectively alluding to—or whenever the spoken word version of subtweeting is—a particular company or a particular acquisition. I'm absolutely not, there are probably 50 different companies listening right now who thinks, “Oh, God. He's talking about us.” It's the common repeating trend. What is that?Nick: It's hard to say. In some cases, these acquisitions might just be talent. “We need to know how to do X. They know how to do X. Let's do it.” They may have very unique niche technology or software that another company thinks they can more broadly apply.Also, some of these big companies, these may not be board-level or CEO-level decisions. A business unit might decide, “Oh, I like what that company is doing. I'm going to go acquire it.” And so it looks like MegaCorp bought TinyCorp, but it's really, this tiny business unit within MegaCorp bought tiny company. The reality is often different from what it looks like on the outside.So, that's one way. Another is, you know, if they're going to teach us to be more effective with tech or something like that, you're never going to beat culture. You're never going to be the existing culture. If it's 50,000, against 200, obviously we know who wins there. And so I don't know if that's realistic.I don't know if the big companies are genuine when they say that, but it could just be the messaging that they use to make people happy and hopefully retain as many of those new employees for as long as they can. Does that make sense?Corey: No, it makes perfect sense. It's the right answer. It does articulate what is happening there, and I think I keep falling prey to the same failure. And it's hard. It's pernicious, but companies are not monolithic entities.There's no one person at all of these companies each who is making these giant unilateral decisions. It's always some product manager or some particular person who has a vision and a strategy in the department. It is not something that the company board is agreeing on every little decision that gets made. They're distributed entities in many respects.Nick: Absolutely. And that's only getting more pervasive as companies get larger [laugh] through acquisition. So, you're going to see more and more of that, and so it's going to look like we're going to put one label on it, one brand. Often, I think internally, that's the exact opposite of what actually happened, how that decision got made.Corey: Nick, I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me about what you're up to over there, how your path has shaped, how you view the world, and also what Cribl does these days. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about the world, or even possibly going to work at Cribl which, having spoken to a number of people over there, I would endorse it. How do they find you?Nick: Best place to find us is by joining our community: cribl.io/community, and Cribl is spelled C-R-I-B-L. You can certainly reach out there, we've got about 2300 people in our community Slack, so it's a great group. You can also reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @nheudecker, N-H-E-U-D-E-C-K-E-R. Tell me what you thought of the episode; love to hear it. And then beyond that, you can also sign up for our free cloud tier at cribl.cloud. It's a pretty generous one terabyte a day processing, so you can start to send data in and send it wherever you'd like to be.Corey: To be clear, this free as in beer, not free as an AWS free tier?Nick: This is free as in beer.Corey: Excellent. Excellent.Nick: I think I'm getting that right. I think it's free as in beer. And the other thing you can try is our hosted solution on AWS, fully managed cloud at cribl.cloud, we offer a free one terabyte per day processing, so you can start to send data into that environment and send it wherever you'd like to go, in whatever shape that data needs to be in when it gets there.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:35:21]. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.Nick: No, thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.Corey: Nick Heudecker, senior director, market strategy and competitive intelligence at Cribl. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment explaining that the only real reason a startup should raise a $200 million funding round is to pay that month's AWS bill.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Today we're going to talk about our cats. Our little spirit animals. Here's why- maybe you're not a cat lover, but let's just face it guys. It's been a weird freaking time. And I think it's a time where we've turned towards our animals and our animals have turned towards us.  My heart breaks when I hear stories about people that adopted dogs during COVID and now they're giving them back because they're going to work, I don't want that. I want everyone to keep your dog and your cat, but our story is kind of funny.  Past Pets… For those of you that remember, we used to have a Lenny, the Boston terrier, who you might hear in some of the older episodes would be snoring in the background.  And then we had Sabrina who was one of two cats before Lenny passed. Before that there was Miles. Miles was the man. He was just the coolest. He was a king whenever Nick would be studying the morning, miles would lie down on his chest and just stare at him legs sort of like, claiming you and taking on the wisdom as much as he could through osmosis, I guess.  No. More. Pets... No more animals for a while. I like, ah, so a couple months go by and it's the end of February. And all of a sudden I'm like maybe a cat, maybe a cat. You know, I started hearing those voices and I start looking and I started kind of manifesting. I opened up and started looking for adoption, you know, rescue centers, obviously Hello Kitty… Kisma (): So I open up and there is , which is a great place and Rancho Santa Fe. And there's this picture of one cat. And there were a lot of dogs, one cat named Pecan, little black and white tuxedo. I'm like, that's my girl. She's my cat.  I'm like, you don't understand. That's my cat! Then Nick starts looking, all of a sudden, there's a cat named Merlin who comes out of nowhere. Kisma had her process to go through… Nick (10:30) So let's I want to back up here for just a quick second, just to be clear. I was letting you go through your process. Like, I could hear you going through your process. In my mind, there was zero doubt that we were going home with both cats. Kisma  I think he was trying to pull one over on me guys. Nick I know you just, I know you just weren't there yet. And I was okay with that and you're going, well, maybe we'll just get Merlin cause he'll be gone. And then the other one I'm like huh. Yeah, yeah. Let's start there. But in my mind there was absolutely no doubt ever that we're going home with two cats. Lesson from our cats... So I guess the whole purpose of this episode. So I'll let you know what's up with our cats. And patience, and it's sort of like Pecan is demonstrating this "when I'm ready. I'll let you pat me until now. I'm not." And I think that's something we can all look aa like, when we're ready, we're going to do what we're going to do. But it's our ready. Right. It's not somebody else's ready. Nick (): Yeah. You can't really force it. You know, to me, it's always it's that. It's like the patience to just let her be and come to it in her own time. And that, that steadfastness of just loving all over her, you know, wherever she is, how I feel like that's a really, it's easier to do it for pets than it is for people, but it's also something that we really, really, really need to do for people.  I think now's the time, you know, some people they just aren't ready to take their step. They're not ready to, put down their woobie that's making them feel safe and comfortable.  I talk about in the self-love course all the time. It's a great quote by Mr. Rogers. And he talks about the people who loved us into being.  When I read that, I was like, that's it, you know, it's just, it's about loving one another into being and the patience that it takes to do that. And I think about that with people. And I think about it with projects and things that are important to us and like, like all those sorts of things, like they take time, nature takes time. And when we give, give it the time and the space to really like, love it into being and, everything comes along so much faster and she's making strides Let's see some furry photos… Post in the comments. If you're on our website@illuminationpodcast.com. And I think you can even put attachments on there, attach a photo to your fuzzy little dinky little pet site. I just want to see them all.

Fire extinguishers, airbags in your car, and smoke alarms in your house are all examples of things in life that don't really seem to matter until they're the only thing that matters. On that rare occasion when you need one of those items, you'll either be very glad that you have one, or really regretting the fact that you don't. Let's talk about some of the things in the financial world that don't matter until they do. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey everybody, welcome in to another edition of the podcast. This is Retirement Planning - Redefined, with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. And we're going to chat today about some things that don't matter, well, until they do. And I've got some pretty good examples of that, so we're going to get into that in just a second. But I don't know, Nick, I feel like I should pick on you a little bit. Things that don't matter until they do, is that the Buffalo Bills again this year or what?   Nick: Those are fighting words. It's a good thing we're in a different state. Now, what's your football team?   Mark: I just had to pick on you because of the whole Tom Brady thing. I was going to talk to you about it, so you just couldn't get away from this guy, right? He was kicking your butt in New England, then he comes down in your backyard and still knocks your team out. I actually felt for you this past playoff, so.   Nick: Yeah, it's all good. We've got a real quarterback now so I'm okay with it.   Mark: Yeah.   Nick: I'm not a complete...   Mark: My team is total garbage, so you can pick on me all day long, so it's no worries. My team is the laughingstock of the NFL pretty much on a regular basis.   John: Are you a Panthers fan?   Mark: That's close. You think I would be because, same thing with you guys, I'm next to the Panthers so you think I would be. But no, I'm a Cowboys fan. Yeah. It's the worst.   Nick: Nah. Trust me. It's not the worst.   Mark: We get a lot of flack for Cowboys fans. That's for sure.   Nick: Yeah, but it's not the worst.   Mark: Gotcha. John, what about you? Do you pull for anybody?   John: The Patriots.   Mark: Oh my God. Wait, what? Oh my gosh, you two must have really gone back and forth.   John: Yeah, I grew up in right outside of the Boston.   Mark: That's right, I remember that now yeah. So you guys have had some fun times over the last few years, haven't you?   Nick: John used to ask me to watch games-   John: He refuses.   Nick: I couldn't be around. I couldn't be around people in public watching the game, but now that they're a little bit better-   Mark: They had a great year last year, they really did, so.   Nick: They made the playoffs three out of the last four years.   Mark: Yeah, they did. They're definitely on the run. So I just had to give you a little bit of a hard time, but it's all good. It's all good.   Mark: So listen, things that don't matter until they do. So here's some real examples, like a fire extinguisher, right? Who thinks about a fire extinguisher until you need one? Or the airbags in your car or smoke alarms in your house, all these things we just don't pay any attention to until we actually really need one. And then we're awfully glad that they're there.   Mark: So I've got a couple of these financially speaking fellas. So talk to us about the importance of why these things can be kind of out of sight, out of mind. But man, we really need to have those ducks in a row. And let's just start with an easy one, legal documents, right? Won't matter until they do, but when you need it, man you're going to be glad you've got it in place, and right.   John: Yeah, this is a great example of that. And where when you're living and this happens is you have some type of health event and I just had a family member who just got an accident and healthcare surrogate had to step up and make some decisions and help them out during that process. So that's something that you really need to consider doing some of these things. Meeting with an attorney that's qualified to do this stuff, to make sure that your ducks are in a row.   John: And the unfortunate one where it's too late is if you pass away and then now your beneficiaries are dealing with whatever estate, whether it's trust, wills, documents that you did or didn't do. I'll tell you from Nick and I have helped a lot of clients kind of navigate that, if it's not done correctly it can be a nightmare for your beneficiaries just to figure out where everything is and who is responsible.   Mark: Yeah. And it's one of those things that's easily avoidable, right Nick? I mean, this is not that hard to fix. This is, of the low hanging fruit that can be out there, you can do this stuff pretty easy. Especially things like beneficiary designation, updating those, so on and so forth. Wills and trusts, sure, they can be a little more complicated, but even that it's not that complex. You've just got to get with an advisor and an attorney.   Nick: Yeah. What we've seen is that often times people don't personally know an attorney or somebody in this space that can help them. Or, if they do, they're private and they don't necessarily want them to know everything about them. Or we'll see people that just... It makes them extremely uncomfortable to talk about death, dying and, or being sick.   Nick: And so it's a classic avoidance behavior. And like we had talked about previously, time flies and all of a sudden it's five or 10 years later, and your mom and dad that you've had listed as the beneficiaries are no longer alive and kids are grown up or you had another child that's not listed anywhere. Or maybe you got divorced or remarried.   Nick: All these things happen and if the documents aren't in place or they're lagging and inaccurate, it can turn into quite a quagmire if something happens. And I'll say this too, is oftentimes when people think of the legal documents, they think of death and not necessarily what John referred to as far as healthcare proxy and a power of attorney, those sorts of things where there's a health event and you're still alive, but you need help making decisions and that can really get pretty squirrely.   Mark: No, I agree with you. And I think the other one we hear sometimes too as well, is, that's for rich people, right? A trust is for rich people or so on and so forth. And it's like, okay, that's not really the case. And it's really not as expensive to get some of this stuff taken care of as we often think it is. I think we build it up in our mind or whatever. We just kind of have this, oh, that's for rich folks or it costs too much money so I'm just going to avoid it. Pretty easy to handle this stuff.   Nick: Yeah, I would say that's accurate, as well as, and we've talked about the run-up in the markets over the last five or 10 years. There's a lot of people that, seven, eight years ago they maybe had a third of the money that they have now. And so they still kind of are in the same train of thought or the same thought process. And they don't realize maybe what they perceive... They still think of themselves in that same way as they did eight to 10 years or even 15 years ago. And there's a little bit of disbelief. And so it kind of leads into kind of procrastinating and you almost have to kind of take stock and realize, okay, hey, this is something I really need to get done.   Mark: Yeah, exactly.   Mark: Well, that's hopefully what we try to provide here on the podcast is there's a little useful nuggets of information that might spark that conversation. And speaking of which, John, life insurance, not something that you're really popping up at the dinner table saying, "Hey, let's have a rousing conversation about life insurance." Right? It doesn't kind of go that way. But, again it's one of those things that don't seem to matter until you need it. And it can be quite important and quite useful tool.   John: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'll say this is probably one of the most disliked conversations for people, is talking about life insurance and what happens after if they were to pass away or a spouse or whoever.   Mark: Right.   John: Especially with children, because when you have kids, and I have two daughters, one of the big things you look at is, I'll use myself as a scenario, I'm gone. So there's my income gone for the next 20, 30 years. So you really want to look at it from that standpoint when you're talking about needs planning for life insurance is... I'm no longer here. My income's no longer providing for my family. How do I replace that? And really life insurance is a great vehicle to go ahead and replace someone's income for a 20, 30 year period. And there's ways to back into what amounts are correct, but definitely something you need to look at when you're doing a plan.   John: And going into retirement can be the same way depending, and Nick mentioned it on the last session where everyone's situation is different. Well we've had scenarios where, there may be still is a need for life insurance in retirement because maybe one person has a heavy pension. And if that person passes away, that pension now is gone. And maybe that's a big requirement for the plan to work.   John: So everyone's situation is different. It's definitely something that needs to be considered. You just want to take a look at it and see what would happen if someone did pass away and there wasn't any life insurance. I'll say a lot of these things that we're going to go over too, I think it's easy to address, there's definitely people that can help you out. And it's just a matter of getting it done. And once it's done it just kind of provides a nice peace of mind that it's kind of like a bandaid, just do it, rip it off.   Mark: There you go. Exactly. I think life insurance too, I will be honest. It's a very important tool even for retirees, there's a lot of ways it can be used. It's not our daddy's Oldsmobile like those old commercials. There's just so many different nuances now to life insurance, where it could be a useful tool for various times of life, but I can't help but thinking of Ned Ryerson and the Groundhog Day movie, when he comes up on Bill Murray, that insurance guy. I think that's what a lot of times people think of when they think life insurance or life insurance agent, and it's just changed so much. But it is a great movie.   Mark: Lifetime income streams. We kind of talk about this fairly often, but I mean, look, it's one of those things maybe you don't think about. You think, well, I've got these accounts, right? I got all this stuff, but how do I turn it into money because I do need money all through my retirement? I need a paycheck coming in.   Nick: Yeah. So, one of the things that we'll say is that in retirement, income is king. Assets are great and assets are the thing that people love to talk about and kind of chat about, but income is king. And I'll say too that everybody knows about social security. They realize in theory it's important, that sort of thing, but many people, and this is something that we'll kind of review with people often, is that they don't quite realize like, well, hey, if your household is getting $60,000 a year in income from social security, which these days, a lot of people are. That is really equivalent to between one and $2 million of nest egg assets from the standpoint of generating a saving [column 00:09:37] , having it last your lifetime and getting inflationary raises.   Nick: So, building a portfolio or an overall strategy where, we've got quite a few clients that they have rental properties, that rental income, they purchased a property a little bit when they're younger. They get the house or the property paid off, and the rental income supplements their income in retirement.   Nick: John referred to pensions, that can be a big deal. Annuities can provide a guaranteed income as well. So, trying to balance forms of guaranteed income with assets can be really important. And just a little caveat to throw in there, although income is king, it is important to have assets. So the reason I say that is we have had some clients come to us that have been, whether it's between social security and pension, they've been income rich and asset poor, and that can also lead to other issues as well. So a good balance is really just like so many other things is really the most important part.   Mark: Well, balance is key, definitely balance is key to anything. And we all know we got to have these different forms of, or we have to have some income coming in, in retirement. But having the multiple streams and turning things on at different times, and whether you want to call it bucket strategies or laddering or whatever the case is, but just having these different various forms to be able to pull from at different times is going to make obviously all the difference in keeping up with our retirement. Because nobody wants to go backwards in their lifestyle in retirement. They want to kind of continue on the way they have been, or maybe even more so in retirement. So that's some things that- go ahead.   Nick: And let me jump in on that too, that point that you made about not going backwards or maintaining is important. Because there are times, and I've had this happen a couple of times, when it comes to retirement and income in retirement and when it comes to life insurance, two of the topics that we talked about, in people's minds they have an enormous amount of confidence that all of a sudden they no longer need any of the things that they've wanted and bought for the last 25 or 30 years. It's like all of a sudden they flip the switch and it's going to be the cheaper food, the cheaper restaurants, the cheaper car-   Mark: I've got plenty of clothes. I don't need to buy any new clothes.   Nick: Yes. And in reality, people don't live like that. And so that's an important-   John: In reality, it's typically the reverse. They have more time on their hands to go buy things.   Mark: Right, yeah. My dad always said every day was a Saturday when he got to retirement and he spends the most money on a Saturday, so, that always stuck with me.   Nick: Yeah most people live in a state of want versus need and it's often, that's a pretty common thing, so anyhow.   Mark: That always stuck with me. That's a great point. Well, I'll tell you what, that's some things that don't matter until they do so, again, whether it's legal documents, pretty easy fix, life insurance, certainly a worthwhile conversation to have no matter what stage of life you're in. And making sure definitely that you've got those income streams set up for life. Some key topics there that we talked about this weekend.   Mark: We're going to take some email questions and wrap up because we want to get back to a couple of these here. We haven't done these lately. And of course, anytime you submit a question, you're going to get your question answered, but to just talk about someone here on the show, we kind of do those from time to time. If you'd like to drop a line, go to pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com or call (813) 286-7776 if you've got some questions for your own situation that you need to get answered, and the guys will certainly tackle those for you.   Mark: But for right now, let's see what we got from Linda who had sent an email question. And guys, she says, "Fellas, my daughter just turned 18 and I'd like to help her get off onto the right foot with some retirement savings. What's a good idea for something to get her started with?"   John: Yeah, I'll take this one. So, we've had this come up quite a bit with some of our clients and their kids, when they turn 18, they want to just get them used to investing or just understanding it which we think is very important. Some of the things we've done, it just depends. If the child is working, we might do a Roth IRA where we'll go ahead and just open up a Roth retirement account. It's a great vehicle for kids because they can tax free money in retirement. They could use it for a first time home purchase, et cetera, et cetera. So we've done that. We've just got to make sure that they're working because you need earned income to contribute to a Roth.   John: If they are not working, there's definitely some kind of joint accounts you can set up, but it's definitely a good thing to do. Because I'll tell you, we've done that for some clients and we've had those kids become clients early, right when they graduate college. And they're pretty aggressive in saving. I have one where, as soon as he graduated he got in touch with me and then just started aggressively saving in his early twenties, which is very uncommon. And now he's early thirties and he has a pretty sizable nest egg. And now he's got kids and all this stuff and he can't save as much because he does not have as much discretionary income. But it really set that foundation for him to really start saving for retirement, understanding how important that is.   Mark: No, I think that's awesome that you're having some people do that, especially at a younger age. And so kudos to her for getting her daughter start off on the right foot. And for people that just in general kind of have that interest. I had a young kid that I knew for a couple of years ago that used to work for me. Same thing. Early on he was very into saving money for his future self, which is fantastic. I think because his parents hadn't done a very good job and so sometimes we see that mental shift, right? Where you see your parents do something and you want to do the opposite and so on and so forth. And in this case, that was a good thing.   Mark: So very cool question. Thanks so much for submitting that. Hopefully that helps you out a little bit and keep listening to the podcast. We certainly appreciate it. And let's do one more guys before we wrap up here, [just 00:15:13] go around, and we've got one from Patty. You guys got to put on your counselor hats here. Patty says, "My husband and I argue almost every day about money because we haven't done a very good job planning for our retirement and it stresses us both out. Is this a normal thing between spouses or do we need some serious help?"   Nick: So I'll jump in on this one. So, there's a couple of things here. So the first thing is that this points out specifically the importance of a plan. And what we mean by that is that when there's not a clear picture of what people actually have, what their life actually looks at, when there's a high amount of uncertainty on the future, that's when there's often anxiety and bickering, arguing those sorts of things when it comes to money.   Nick: And so, step number one is take an inventory, build a plan. So once that's done, if it is truly terrible, then you can fight, but at least let's figure out what's there. But all joking aside, so then the next step is to kind of come to grips with the fact that, hey, we are where we are today. There's nothing that we can do about it. If we can focus on the future and start making decisions that are positive and maybe make some changes that'll be helpful, then that's great.   Nick: From our perspective as advisors, one of our kind of golden rules, and we oftentimes tell clients this is that, we can't care more about your money and your situation than you do. So ultimately it has to start at home and then they have to be willing to take guidance and advice and make changes. And then really what we found is that in 12 to 24 months, the momentum can be significant in a positive way. And things can really swing strongly. And once that happens, it becomes kind of addicting. It's kind of like when you're in your early twenties, for most people maybe they're just starting out at the first job and the first time you started to hit a few thousand dollars in your account that stays in your account, maybe 5,000 is your threshold and you're like, "wow, this is great." I've never had this amount of money in here before.   Nick: And then maybe down the road you hit 10 and as you get older that number changes. And what's interesting is that it also becomes more stressful and you kind of get this hoarding mentality where once you hit these certain thresholds, 50,000, a 100 thousand in your savings account. Once get there and you realize the comfort and the peace of mind that it provides, you never want to go back. And so we like people to kind of get that, to taste that so that they can understand that. And then usually it's full speed ahead.   Mark: Yeah, no, that's a great way of looking at it. My daughter, she's still pretty young but is definitely, she kind of got that. She was constantly just spending her check and spending all her money when she wasn't making too much. And then once she got started getting a decent check in from the Navy and she got a couple of bonuses and she put it in there and she watched her account grow, she was like, "wow, this is-" and so now she's gotten bitten by this bug to kind of see what she can get the number to. She'll message me every so often, "The number is this now. And the number's that now." And so I'm like, "Hey, cool. You're 24 years old. You got a long time for that to grow and compound." So yeah, it definitely can be addicting.   Mark: And of course, if you're closer to retirement and obviously that sounds like that's the case for this question. I think that's a great piece of advice. Find out what you got, get an assessment, get a plan put together, look at it. And then see, you guys might be fighting over nothing too, so think about that. You guys could possibly be in much better shape than you even realize. And therefore you're fighting for [not. 00:18:55]   Mark: So reach out and have a conversation with the guys. Just give him a jingle and call them at (813) 286-7776, or stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. And that's going to do it this week for the podcast. Again, don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, or whatever platform you like to use. You can find it all at the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. For John and Nick, I'm Mark, we'll see you next time here on Retirement Planning - Redefined.   Nick: Go Bills.

So much focus in the financial world revolves around accumulating money. There's all sorts of advice, how- to guides and guardrails in place when it comes to saving and investing, but a lot less resources out there to help retirees navigate the period of time after retirement. This is known as decumulation, the spending down and managing of the assets you've accumulated through your life. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with us here on Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick and myself once again chatting about investing, finance and retirement. We're going to talk about decumulation, five things you must know about decumulation to retire successfully. We're going to get into that in just a second.   Speaker 1: Of course, if you've got some questions, need some help, reach out to John and Nick at PFG Private Wealth. That's PFGprivatewealth.com. That's the website you can stop by at, and gents, what's going on? John, how are you buddy?   John: I'm good, I'm good. I know it's been awhile since I think we've done one of these sessions here.   Speaker 1: Enjoying the summer, I guess, right?   John: Yeah. It's been a busy summer for myself, and Nick can speak to what he's been up to, but yeah, it's definitely been busy. But my little one started kindergarten, so I'm adapting to that life of drop-off car line and pickup, which is fun.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if you remember this movie or not, but do you remember this Michael Keaton movie, Mr. Mom? If you haven't seen it, you should go watch it because you could probably relate to it. The whole car line drop-off thing is hysterical and that was from like the '80s.   John: I'll definitely go check it out.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   John: Yeah. Right now my wife's, she's studying for her boards, so I've been helping out with all that stuff and yeah, it's been interesting.   Speaker 1: It's a great movie. It's a great old '80s movie, but yeah, you could probably really relate to some of this stuff right this minute. Especially when you mentioned that car line thing, it made me think of that because he just, he has the hardest time understanding and getting his mind wrapped around the whole car line thing. It's pretty hilarious. Yeah, definitely check it out.   Speaker 1: Nick, what's going on with you, buddy? I know you've been traveling and running around.   Nick: Yeah. I was a recently up north hometown in Rochester, New York. I've got a lot of friends, family and clients up there, so did my yearly pilgrimage. Just kind of catching back up from being back and readjusting to the heat, so all good.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Got you. All right. Well, good. Well, I'm glad you guys are doing well and yeah, let's get into the five things we need to know about decumulation.   Speaker 1: First of all, it's a big fancy sounding word, but really it just is the spending of your assets, right? I mean, we've accumulated the money, now we're going to decumulate it. It's just kind of a fancy way of spending down what we have saved.   Speaker 1: On this episode, let's point out a few items that people might want to think about to retire successfully. Let's start with the first one. Nick, I'll give this to you. Just a lack of support. I think if you go in, obviously if you type in any kind of a financial something or another, you're going to get 18 billion hits on Google, and a lot of it is about how to accumulate money versus not too much necessarily about the decumulation side.   Speaker 1: But I think if you think if you're working with a good financial professional or an advisor like you guys, obviously that's where some of that support is going to come from, a lot of that support is going to come from. But there is a real lack of that it seems like if you're just trying to do it yourself.   Nick: Yeah, it's interesting. The perspective that people tend to have for this phase of their life, as far as whether you refer to it as decumulation or the distribution phase of life, is oftentimes kind of ingrained in them from their parents a little bit.   Nick: What we've seen a lot with people that are really entering or soon to enter into retirement, and I had this conversation recently with a client is, hey, we know what our expenses are. We have an idea what's going to be coming in from social security, and we just want to protect our principal and go ahead and just take interest in dividends from our accounts, because that's what we know from our parents, and that's kind of... That just makes sense to us.   Nick: The conversation that we get into and we take them really have to force them to go and review the plan that we've put together because the plan will really lay out how this is going to be structured and the underlying components can be a little bit confusing.   Nick: As an example, when I explain to somebody that brings that up that that's what they want to do and help them understand that, hey, on average your dividends on the stock side of your portfolio might be around 2%, if you want solid stocks. Then from an interest rate standpoint, maybe you're looking at 2 or 3% as well. If we're looking at a million bucks, we're talking a total of 20 to $30,000 a year and that will often send them right into a panic attack.   Nick: Understanding how these things tie together, understanding that with the advent and the prevalence of things like exchange traded funds and mutual funds where we can do fractional shares and we can break accounts into a short-term, mid-term, long-term bucket to help us try to preserve some principle over time via growth, but also have a safe withdrawal rate and strategy is really important. It's hands down the most misunderstood, but important thing when it comes to retirement planning.   John: Yeah. I think what we've seen a lot of advisors and client, or a lot of advisors individuals focus on just accumulation, so it's really just kind of building, building it up and they never, as Nick mentioned here, there's never a strategy for as far as how do you actually start taking that money out?   John: It all comes back to you don't want to start planning for that once you retire, that really needs to be as soon as you can, but in reality when you hit that red zone of 5 to 10 years from retirement, I would say more towards 10, you should really start considering, "Hey, what is my distribution strategy?"   Speaker 1: Got you. Okay. Yeah, and I think a lot of times we do kind of get wrapped up in the accumulation thing and we tend to forget about these other stages and it leads me really into the second topic guys on this, which is it's funny, maybe not funny, but it is interesting how the fear of spending is really real.   Speaker 1: At first, when I first started, I've been doing this now for a number of years, talking with advisors all across the country and you think, hey, you get to retirement. You're looking forward to finally spending your and having a good time and so on and so forth and enjoying your golden years. But many, many, many people are truly afraid of actually spending what they've saved.   Speaker 1: I think a lot of it probably comes down to just confidence, but it's a real thing getting over that hump and getting comfortable saying, "Okay, it's okay to spend this money we've saved for the last 40 years now." What do you guys see?   John: Yeah, no, we see the same thing. It really is, again, back to the accumulation phase or savings phase in this scenario. They're just so used to getting a paycheck, saving it, and then they live off of their paycheck. Well, now your nest egg is now retirement that providing that paycheck for you, and the biggest fear for retirees is not running out of money. With that comes, can I spend this much? What will my assets, or what does my plan look like if I continue this spending or if I go buy this?   John: It's important, and we've had scenarios where the plan really does give clients confidence of when they look at it and say, "Okay, if I continue my current spending rate, I have X amount at the end of the plan." The cool thing about some of the stuff that we do when we get to see our clients see it is we'll show, "Hey, what if you spend an extra 10 to 15 grand over the next 10 years for a vacation?" And we'll model it out and they get to see how does that affect their overall plan, and is there still money left at the end? Is there enough money left where you feel comfortable?   John: We find that when people see that and there's two versions of it. One's a very detailed kind of actuarial cashflow number, which is kind of boring to look at. But then we also have a chart form, which just makes it easy to understand and it's, "Okay. You know what? I can go spend that money," and it just provides a nice peace of mind.   John: We've had scenarios where people see that and then they go do some of their goal, whether it's buy an RV, do this vacation, spend time with family. It's the fear is definitely real, and it's important to have a plan to give you some peace of mind, to see if you... That you're not going to outlive your money.   Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think definitely it's that confidence factor, right? Because oftentimes people that are in good shape, they just don't really feel comfortable that they can go through that transition period. I think that's a lot of the value that you guys bring to the table by saying, "Okay, now we've built a plan. I've showed you this is going to work, and then you're there as that kind of coaching sounding board to say, "No, it's okay. We can get over this hump together. You're going to be able to enjoy this because that's what you've built up and worked towards."   Speaker 1: Now we know obviously we're living longer and there's more things to be... There's more risky stuff out there, and not even talking about the crazy kooky world we find ourselves in right now, but just risks in general. If we're talking about the de cumulation phase, which is when we're into retirement, the risks in general become more numerous, especially financially speaking.   Nick: Yeah, so one of the things that can impact a retirement plan or this phase of somebody's life, this decumulation phase, is what's called the sequence of returns. Essentially, what that means is that on a typical case, people think in terms of average rates of return, and that's understandable because that's how most people are taught.   Nick: But there can be an average over a 10 year period, a 15 year period of, you can call it 6, 7, 8%. But if the... Even though it averages that number, if the losses are incurred early on and they're significant, that has a much greater impact on how long the money will last than if those losses come further on down the road.   Nick: That's why it's important to really have a strategy, to understand that the plan should be consistently updated. And what ends up happening, especially in one of the things that we're starting to see a little bit is, the markets have been up for the last 6, 7, 8, 9 years, so there's a little bit of, I don't know if you euphoria is the right term, but a little bit of a sense of invincibility for some people. Where it's like, "Hey, I keep taking money out and it keeps going up and that's great," and that is good, but it doesn't always happen like that.   Nick: When we have these risks of AC goes out, child loses their job and you help them financially, you get grandkids, there's a change of social security, you have a health issue, all these different things. We're trying to prepare for all uncertainties, and so making sure that your investment strategy is really lining up with your overall plan is important even in good times, which is what we've had for quite a while.   Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I definitely would agree with that statement for sure. You know, and John, listen, hey, they've passed another trillion dollars just a few weeks ago at the time we're taping this podcast, now they're talking about another $3 trillion. So focusing on tax consequences has probably never been more important than what it's going to be over the next couple of years. Whether they sunset, they do nothing and leave them alone, and they sunset back to the old means here in a couple of years, or they make some changes, you got to have some focus on taxes.   John: Yeah. Taxes are definitely an eroding factor on your money, especially going into retirement. Because that for the majority of people, that's their... The IRA pre-tax money is typically their biggest part of their nest egg and they're pulling it out. Every time you pull out a hundred grand, you're getting whacked with taxes on that. It's important, again kind of that red zone area, even before that you want to start planning for what you think your tax situation is going to be. But also you want to start planning to have the flexibility to adapt to any type of tax environment so you can basically limit how much taxes you're actually paying.   John: So example, Nick mentioned some risks where let's say you have a health event, you need to pull out 30, 40 grand. It might be nice to have some tax free money, AKA kind of some Roth money that you can pull from so you don't really jump into a higher tax bracket and just start paying enormous amount of taxes that you could ultimately have avoided.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, again, it's not what you make, it's what you keep. It's all those kinds of things we know, we hear about it, but if you're not talking about taxes as you're preparing for retirement, I mean, I'll go out on a limb and just say you're doing it wrong. Right? You've got to make sure that you're factoring that in there and having those conversations, and if you're not, well, then that needs to be a red flag as well.   Speaker 1: So that at the end of the day, we've got these five things I mentioned. Here's the fifth one, guys, just leveraging the lifetime income. We got to replace a paycheck, whether it's for 1 year, 5 years, 15 years, 25 years, 40 years. It'd be easy if we knew exactly how long we're going to live, but we don't, so you've got to have that thing ready and you've got to leverage that income for life.   Nick: Yeah. It's one of the things that we try to emphasize with people and one of the keys to planning is that everybody's situation is different. When you talk to your brother, your sister, your friend, your neighbor, whatever, and when I was just up north, I'm reminded about, I was reminded about how much people love to talk about just everything. Being down in Florida, people tend to be a little bit more private from what I've seen. People are, "Oh yeah, I did this, I did that. I did this."   Nick: One of the things that I try to emphasize to people on a consistent basis is that sure, your sister may be doing X, Y, and Z, but maybe your sister has a pension. Maybe your sister's mortgage is paid off. Maybe your sister didn't have kids, and so her situation and all of the decisions that line up with that are very different from yours. Because you don't have a pension, your house isn't paid off, you did have children that cost you more money, and let alone the risk tolerance from the standpoint of the market, that's a whole different ball game.   Nick: When we evaluate things, one of the things that when we go through a plan, one of the things that we typically go through with people is just looking at options from the standpoint of a guaranteed income. In reality, the only way to get guaranteed income is through annuities, and a lot of people have a certain perception of annuities or they don't like them. We always try to remind people that, hey, our job is to make sure you understand what options are out there and available for you. Make sure how you know that they work or would work for you in your situation. Then if it's something that you don't like, then we just don't do it, and we move on.   Nick: But when we factor in social security, whether or not somebody has a pension and/or whether or not they want to have some form of guaranteed income in the future, it can really make a significant difference. Not only from just a pure planning standpoint, but also from a peace of mind standpoint.   Nick: One of the things that is probably underestimated are how people emotionally respond to different things that happen in the market, and how that can impact their decision-making. No matter how many times somebody, says, "Hey, I know I need to invest longterm. I know I need not to be reactionary," when it hits the fan, it's really hard not to be.   John: Nick, I'm going to stop you for a second. A perfect example of that was actually when Coronavirus hit. I think we had a true indication of how much risk some people were willing to take.   Nick: A hundred percent, and so this is that whole... I referred to it a little bit earlier, this level of euphoria over the last year is that, "Hey, everything's going well." Or we've had conversations with clients where maybe they've used some sort of annuity or some sort of guaranteed income product. It's like, "Well, hey, if I would've kept it in the market, it would have done this, this and that." It's like, "Yes, but what we did was we separated that money and we gave it a certain job, and as long as that does its job, then we have a lot less pressure on everything else, including your brain and your emotions, and that cannot be underestimated."   Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Well, those are five things, folks, that happen or can happen during the decumulation phase, which again is a fancy word for the spending of the assets that you've accumulated through the years to get to retirement. Hopefully, that helped you a little bit, gave you a couple of useful things to think about.   Speaker 1: As always, if you've got some questions, we talk in generalities here on the podcast, make sure you're checking with your advisor or reach out to qualified professionals like John and Nick before you take any action. You can find them online at PFGprivatewealth.com, that's PFGprivatewealth.com.   Speaker 1: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast while you're there on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever platform you like to use. We put these out quite often here, so you've got definitely a lot of content. You can go back and listen to some past episodes and, of course, get notified when new episodes come out as well.   Speaker 1: So guys, thanks for hanging out with me. I appreciate it. Glad to have you back in and chatting with me and I'll see you guys in a couple of weeks. We'll be getting ready for football season.   Nick: Yes, sir.   John: Right.   Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time here on Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

About NickNick Frichette is a Penetration Tester and Team Lead for State Farm. Outside of work he does vulnerability research. His current primary focus is developing techniques for AWS exploitation. Additionally he is the founder of hackingthe.cloud which is an open source encyclopedia of the attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments.Links: Hacking the Cloud: https://hackingthe.cloud/ Determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket vulnerability: https://hackingthe.cloud/aws/enumeration/account_id_from_s3_bucket/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/frichette_n Personal website:https://frichetten.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lumigo. If you've built anything from serverless, you know that if there's one thing that can be said universally about these applications, it's that it turns every outage into a murder mystery. Lumigo helps make sense of all of the various functions that wind up tying together to build applications. It offers one-click distributed tracing so you can effortlessly find and fix issues in your serverless and microservices environment. You've created more problems for yourself; make one of them go away. To learn more, visit lumigo.io.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I spend a lot of time throwing things at AWS in varying capacities. One area I don't spend a lot of time giving them grief is in the InfoSec world because as it turns out, they—and almost everyone else—doesn't have much of a sense of humor around things like security. My guest today is Nick Frechette, who's a penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. Nick, thanks for joining me.Nick: Hey, thank you for inviting me on.Corey: So, like most folks in InfoSec, you tend to have a bunch of different, I guess, titles or roles that hang on signs around someone's neck. And it all sort of distills down, on some level—in your case, at least, and please correct me if I'm wrong—to ‘cloud security researcher.' Is that roughly correct? Or am I missing something fundamental?Nick: Yeah. So, for my day job, I do penetration testing, and that kind of puts me up against a variety of things, from web applications, to client-side applications, to sometimes the cloud. In my free time, though, I like to spend a lot of time on security research, and most recently been focusing pretty heavily on AWS.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. What is a cloud security researcher? “What is it you'd say it is you do here?” For lack of a better phrasing?Nick: Well, to be honest, the phrase ‘security researcher' or ‘cloud security researcher' has been, kind of… I guess watered down in recent years; everybody likes to call themselves a researcher in some way or another. You have some folks who participate in the bug bounty programs. So, for example, GCP, and Azure have their own bug bounties. AWS does not, and too sure why. And so they want to find vulnerabilities with the intention of getting cash compensation for it.You have other folks who are interested in doing security research to try and better improve defenses and alerting and monitoring so that when the next major breach happens, they're prepared or they'll be able to stop it ahead of time. From what I do, I'm very interested in offensive security research. So, how can I as, a penetration tester, or red teamer or, I guess, an actual criminal, [laugh] how can I take advantage of AWS, or try to avoid detection from services like GuardDuty and CloudTrail?Corey: So, let's break that down a little bit further. I've heard the term of ‘red team versus blue team' used before. Red team—presumably—is the offensive security folks—and yes, some of those people are, in fact, quite offensive—and blue team is the defense side. In other words, keeping folks out. Is that a reasonable summation of the state of the world?Nick: It can be, yeah, especially when it comes to security. One of the nice parts about the whole InfoSec field—I know a lot of folks tend to kind of just say, “Oh, they're there to prevent the next breach,” but in reality, InfoSec has a ton of different niches and different job specialties. “Blue teamers,” quote-unquote, tend to be the defense side working on ensuring that we can alert and monitor potential attacks, whereas red teamers—or penetration testers—tend to be the folks who are trying to do the actual exploitation or develop techniques to do that in the future.Corey: So, you talk a bit about what you do for work, obviously, but what really drew my notice was stuff you do that isn't part of your core job, as best I understand it. You're focused on vulnerability research, specifically with a strong emphasis on cloud exploitation, as you said—AWS in particular—and you're the founder of Hacking the Cloud, which is an open-source encyclopedia of various attacks and techniques you can perform in cloud environments. Tell me about that.Nick: Yeah, so Hacking the Cloud came out of a frustration I had when I was first getting into AWS, that there didn't seem to be a ton of good resources for offensive security professionals to get engaged in the cloud. By comparison, if you wanted to learn about web application hacking, or attacking Active Directory, or reverse engineering, if you have a credit card, I can point you in the right direction. But there just didn't seem to be a good course or introduction to how you, as a penetration tester, should attack AWS. There's things like, you know, open S3 buckets are a nightmare, or that server-side request forgery on an EC2 instance can result in your organization being fined very, very heavily. I kind of wanted to go deeper with that.And with Hacking the Cloud, I've tried to gather a bunch of offensive security research from various blog posts and conference talks into a single location, so that both the offense side and the defense side can kind of learn from it and leverage that to either improve defenses or look for things that they can attack.Corey: It seems to me that doing things like that is not likely to wind up making a whole heck of a lot of friends over on the cloud provider side. Can you talk a little bit about how what you do is perceived by the companies you're focusing on?Nick: Yeah. So, in terms of relationship, I don't really have too much of an idea of what they think. I have done some research and written on my blog, as well as published to Hacking the Cloud, some techniques for doing things like abusing the SSM agent, as well as abusing the AWS API to enumerate permissions without logging into CloudTrail. And ironically, through the power of IP addresses, I can see when folks from the Amazon corporate IP address space look at my blog, and that's always fun, especially when there's, like, four in the course of a couple of minutes, or five or six. But I don't really know too much about what they—or how they view it, or if they think it's valuable at all. I hope they do, but really not too sure.Corey: I would imagine that they do, on some level, but I guess the big question is, you know that someone doesn't like what you're doing when they send, you know, cease and desist notices, or have the police knock on your door. I feel like at most levels, we're past that in an InfoSec level, at least I'd like to believe we are. We don't hear about that happening all too often anymore. But what's your take on it?Nick: Yeah, I definitely agree. I definitely think we are beyond that. Most companies these days know that vulnerabilities are going to happen, no matter how hard you try and how much money you spend, and so it's better to be accepting of that and open to it. And especially because the InfoSec community can be so, say, noisy at times, it's definitely worth it to pay attention, definitely be appreciative of the information that may come out. AWS is pretty awesome to work with, having disclosed to them a couple times, now.They have a safe harbor provision, which essentially says that so long as you're operating in good faith, you are allowed to do security testing. They do have some rules around that, but they are pretty clear in terms of if you were operating in good faith, you wouldn't be doing anything like that. It tends to be pretty obviously malicious things that they'll ask you to stop.Corey: So, talk to me a little bit about what you've found lately, and been public about. There have been a number of examples that have come up whenever people start googling your name or looking at things you've done. But what's happening lately? What have you found that's interesting?Nick: Yeah. So, I think most recently, the thing that's kind of gotten the most attention has been a really interesting bug I found in the AWS API. Essentially, kind of the core of it is that when you are interacting with the API, obviously that gets logged to CloudTrail, so long as it's compatible. So, if you are successful, say you want to do, like, Secrets Manager, ListSecrets, that shows up in CloudTrail. And similarly, if you do not have that permission on a role or user and you try to do it, that access denied also gets logged to CloudTrail.Something kind of interesting that I found is that by manually modifying a request, or mal-forming them, what we can do is we can modify the content-type header, and as a result when you do that—and you can provide literally gibberish. I think I have VS Code window here somewhere with a content-type of ‘meow'—when you do that, the AWS API knows the action that you're trying to call because of that messed up content type, it doesn't know exactly what you're trying to do and as a result, it doesn't get logged to CloudTrail. Now, while that may seem kind of weirdly specific and not really, like, a concern, the nice part of it though is that for some API actions—somewhere in the neighborhood of 600. I say ‘in the neighborhood of' just because it fluctuates over time—as a result of that, you can tell if you have that permission, or if you don't without that being logged to CloudTrail. And so we can do this enumeration of permissions without somebody in the defense side seeing us do it. Which is pretty awesome from a offensive security perspective.Corey: On some level, it would be easy to say, “Well, just not showing up in the logs isn't really a security problem at all.” I guess that you disagree?Nick: I do, yeah. So, let's sort of look at it from a real-world perspective. Let's say, Corey, you're tired of saving people money on their AWS bill, you'd instead maybe want to make a little money on the side and you're okay with perhaps, you know, committing some crimes to do it. Through some means you get access to a company's AWS credentials for some particular role, whether that's through remote code execution on an EC2 instance, or maybe find them in an open location like an S3 bucket or a Git repository, or maybe you phish a developer, through some means, you have an access key and a secret access key. The new problem that you have is that you don't know what those credentials are associated with, or what permissions they have.They could be the root account keys, or they could be literally locked down to a single S3 bucket to read from. It all just kind of depends. Now, historically, your options for figuring that out are kind of limited. Your best bet would be to brute-force the AWS API using a tool like Pacu, or my personal favorite, which is enumerate-iam by Andres Riancho. And what that does is it just tries a bunch of API calls and sees which one works and which one doesn't.And if it works, you clearly know that you have that permission. Now, the problem with that, though, is that if you were to do that, that's going to light up CloudTrail like a Christmas tree. It's going to start showing all these access denieds for these various API calls that you've tried. And obviously, any defender who's paying attention is going to look at that and go, “Okay. That's, uh, that's suspicious,” and you're going to get shut down pretty quickly.What's nice about this bug that I found is that instead of having to litter CloudTrail with all these logs, we can just do this enumeration for roughly 600-ish API actions across roughly 40 AWS services, and nobody is the wiser. You can enumerate those permissions, and if they work fantastic, and you can then use them, and if you come to find you don't have any of those 600 permissions, okay, then you can decide on where to go from there, or maybe try to risk things showing up in CloudTrail.Corey: CloudTrail is one of those services that I find incredibly useful, or at least I do in theory. In practice, it seems that things don't show up there, and you don't realize that those types of activities are not being recorded until one day there's an announcement of, “Hey, that type of activity is now recorded.” As of the time of this recording, the most recent example that in memory is data plane requests to DynamoDB. It's, “Wait a minute. You mean that wasn't being recorded previously? Huh. I guess it makes sense, but oh, dear.”And that causes a reevaluation of what's happening in the—from a security policy and posture perspective for some clients. There's also, of course, the challenge of CloudTrail logs take a significant amount of time to show up. It used to be over 20 minutes, I believe now it's closer to 15—but don't quote me on that, obviously. Run your own tests—which seems awfully slow for anything that's going to be looking at those in an automated fashion and taking a reactive or remediation approach to things that show up there. Am I missing something key?Nick: No, I think that is pretty spot on. And believe me, [laugh] I am fully aware at how long CloudTrail takes to populate, especially with doing a bunch of research on what is and what is not logged to CloudTrail. I know that there are some operations that can be logged more quickly than the 15-minute average. Off the top of my head, though, I actually don't quite remember what those are. But you're right, in general, the majority at least do take quite a while.And that's definitely time in which an adversary or someone like me, could maybe take advantage of that 15-minute window to try and brute force those permissions, see what we have access to, and then try to operate and get out with whatever goodies we've managed to steal.Corey: Let's say that you're doing the thing that you do, however that comes to be—and I am curious—actually, we'll start there. I am curious; how do you discover these things? Is it looking at what is presented and then figuring out, “Huh, how can I wind up subverting the system it's based on?” And, similar to the way that I take a look at any random AWS services and try and figure out how to use it as a database? How do you find these things?Nick: Yeah, so to be honest, it all kind of depends. Sometimes it's completely by accident. So, for example, the API bug I described about not logging to CloudTrail, I actually found that due to [laugh] copy and pasting code from AWS's website, and I didn't change the content-type header. And as a result, I happened to notice this weird behavior, and kind of took advantage of it. Other times, it's thinking a little bit about how something is implemented and the security ramifications of it.So, for example, the SSM agent—which is a phenomenal tool in order to do remote access on your EC2 instances—I was sitting there one day and just kind of thought, “Hey, how does that authenticate exactly? And what can I do with it?” Sure enough, it authenticates the exact same way that the AWS API does, that being the metadata service on the EC2 instance. And so what I figured out pretty quickly is if you can get access to an EC2 instance, even as a low-privilege user or you can do server-side request forgery to get the keys, or if you just have sufficient permissions within the account, you can potentially intercept SSM messages from, like, a session and provide your own results. And so in effect, if you've compromised an EC2 instance, and the only way, say, incident response has into that box is SSM, you can effectively lock them out of it and, kind of, do whatever you want in the meantime.Corey: That seems like it's something of a problem.Nick: It definitely can be. But it is a lot of fun to play keep-away with incident response. [laugh].Corey: I'd like to reiterate that this is all in environments you control and have permissions to be operating within. It is not recommended that people pursue things like this in other people's cloud environments without permissions. I don't want to find us sued for giving crap advice, and I don't want to find listeners getting arrested because they didn't understand the nuances of what we're talking about.Nick: Yes, absolutely. Getting legal approval is really important for any kind of penetration testing or red teaming. I know some folks sometimes might get carried away, but definitely be sure to get approval before you do any kind of testing.Corey: So, how does someone report a vulnerability to a company like AWS?Nick: So AWS, at least publicly, doesn't have any kind of bug bounty program. But what they do have is a vulnerability disclosure program. And that is essentially an email address that you can contact and send information to, and that'll act as your point of contact with AWS while they investigate the issue. And at the end of their investigation, they can report back with their findings, whether they agree with you and they are working to get that patched or fixed immediately, or if they disagree with you and think that everything is hunky-dory, or if you may be mistaken.Corey: I saw a tweet the other day that I would love to get your thoughts on, which said effectively, that if you don't have a public bug bounty program, then any way that a researcher chooses to disclose the vulnerability is definitionally responsible on their part because they don't owe you any particular duty of care. Responsible disclosure, of course, is also referred to as, “Coordinated vulnerability disclosure” because we're always trying to reinvent terminology in this space. What do you think about that? Is there a duty of care from security researchers to responsibly disclose the vulnerabilities they find, or coordinate those vulnerabilities with vendors in the absence of a public bounty program on turning those things in?Nick: Yeah, you know, I think that's a really difficult question to answer. From my own personal perspective, I always think it's best to contact the developers, or the company, or whoever maintains whatever you found a vulnerability in, give them the best shot to have it fixed or repaired. Obviously, sometimes that works great, and the company is super receptive, and they're willing to patch it immediately. And other times, they just don't respond, or sometimes they respond harshly, and so depending on the situation, it may be better for you to release it publicly with the intention that you're informing folks that this particular company or this particular project may have an issue. On the flip side, I can kind of understand—although I don't necessarily condone it—why folks pursue things like exploit brokers, for example.So, if a company doesn't have a bug bounty program, and the researcher isn't expecting any kind of, like, cash compensation, I can understand why they may spend tens of hours, maybe hundreds of hours chasing down a particularly impactful vulnerability, only to maybe write a blog post about it or get a little head pat and say, “Thanks, nice work.” And so I can see why they may pursue things like selling to an exploit broker who may pay them hefty sum, if it is a—Corey: Orders of magnitude more. It's, “Oh, good. You found a way to remotely execute code across all of EC2 in every region”—that is a hypothetical; don't email me—have a t-shirt. It seems like you could basically buy all the t-shirts for [laugh] what that is worth on the export market.Nick: Yes, absolutely. And I do know from some experience that folks will reach out to you and are interested in, particularly, some cloud exploits. Nothing, like, minor, like some of the things that I've found, but more thinking more of, like, accessing resources without anybody knowing or accessing resources cross-account; that could go for quite a hefty sum.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: It always feels squicky, on some level, to discover something like this that's kind of neat, and wind up selling it to basically some arguably terrible people. Maybe. We don't know who's buying these things from the exploit broker. Counterpoint, having reported a few security problems myself to various providers, you get an autoresponder, then you get a thank you email that goes into a bit more detail—for the well-run programs, at least—and invariably, the company's position is, is whatever you found is not as big of a deal as you think it is, and therefore they see no reason to publish it or go loud with it. Wouldn't you agree?Because, on some level, their entire position is, please don't talk about any security shortcomings that you may have discovered in our system. And I get why they don't want that going loud, but by the same token, security researchers need a reputation to continue operating on some level in the market as security researchers, especially independents, especially people who are trying to make names for themselves in the first place.Nick: Yeah.Corey: How do you resolve that dichotomy yourself?Nick: Yeah, so, from my perspective, I totally understand why a company or project wouldn't want you to publicly disclose an issue. Everybody wants to look good, and nobody wants to be called out for any kind of issue that may have been unintentionally introduced. I think the thing at the end of the day, though, from my perspective, if I, as some random guy in the middle of nowhere Illinois finds a bug, or to be frank, if anybody out there finds a vulnerability in something, then a much more sophisticated adversary is equally capable of finding such a thing. And so it's better to have these things out in the open and discussed, rather than hidden away, so that we have the best chance of anybody being able to defend against it or develop detections for it, rather than just kind of being like, “Okay, the vendor didn't like what I had to say, I guess I'll go back to doing whatever [laugh] things I normally do.”Corey: You've obviously been doing this for a while. And I'm going to guess that your entire security researcher career has not been focused on cloud environments in general and AWS in particular.Nick: Yes, I've done some other stuff in relation to abusing GitLab Runners. I also happen to find a pretty neat RCE and privilege escalation in the very popular open-source project. Pi-hole. Not sure if you have any experience with that.Corey: Oh, I run it myself all the time for various DNS blocking purposes and other sundry bits of nonsense. Oh, yes, good. But what I'm trying to establish here is that this is not just one or two companies that you've worked with. You've done this across the board, which means I can ask a question without naming and shaming anyone, even implicitly. What differentiates good vulnerability disclosure programs from terrible ones?Nick: Yeah, I think the major differentiator is the reactivity of the project, as in how quickly they respond to you. There are some programs I've worked with where you disclose something, maybe even that might be of a high severity, and you might not hear back four weeks at a time, whereas there are other programs, particularly the MSRC—which is a part of Microsoft—or with AWS's disclosure program, where within the hour, I had a receipt of, “Hey, we received this, we're looking into it.” And then within a couple hours after that, “Yep, we verified it. We see what you're seeing, and we're going to look at it right away.” I think that's definitely one of the major differentiators for programs.Corey: Are there any companies you'd like to call out in either direction—and, “No,” is a perfectly valid [laugh] answer to this one—for having excellent disclosure programs versus terrible ones?Nick: I don't know if I'd like to call anybody out negatively. But in support, I have definitely appreciated working with both AWS's and the MSRC—Microsoft's—I think both of them have done a pretty fantastic job. And they definitely know what they're doing at this point.Corey: Yeah, I must say that I primarily focus on AWS and have for a while, which should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's listened to me talk about computers for more than three and a half minutes. But my experiences with the security folks at AWS have been uniformly positive, even when I find things that they don't want me talking about, that I will be talking about regardless, they've always been extremely respectful, and I have never walked away from the conversation thinking that I was somehow cheated by the experience. In fact, a couple of years ago at the last in-person re:Invent, I got to give a talk around something I reported specifically about how AWS runs its vulnerability disclosure program with one of their security engineers, Zach Glick, and he was phenomenally transparent around how a lot of these things work, and what they care about, and how they view these things, and what their incentives are. And obviously being empathetic to people reporting things in with the understanding that there is no duty of care that when security researchers discover something, they then must immediately go and report it in return for a pat on the head and a thank you. It was really neat being able to see both sides simultaneously around a particular issue. I'd recommend it to other folks, except I don't know how you make that lightning strike twice.Nick: It's very, very wise. Yes.Corey: Thank you. I do my best. So, what's next for you? You've obviously found a number of interesting vulnerabilities around information disclosure. One of the more recent things that I found that was sort of neat as I trolled the internet—I don't believe it was yours, but there was a ability to determine the account ID that owned an S3 bucket by enumerating by a binary search. Did you catch that at all?Nick: I did. That was by Ben Bridts, which is—it's pretty awesome technique, and that's been something I've been kind of interested in for a while. There is an ability to enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles inside an account, so long as the account ID. The problem, of course, is getting the account ID. So, when Ben put that out there I was super stoked about being able to leverage that now for enumeration and maybe some fun phishing tricks with that.Corey: I love the idea. I love seeing that sort of thing being conducted. And AWS's official policy as best I remember when I looked at this once, account IDs are not considered confidential. Do you agree with that?Nick: Yep. That is my understanding of how AWS views it. From my perspective, having an account ID can be beneficial. I mentioned that you can enumerate users' roles and service-linked roles with it, and that can be super useful from a phishing perspective. The average phishing email looks like, “Oh, you won an iPad,” or, “Oh, you're the 100th visitor of some website,” or something like that.But imagine getting an email that looks like it's from something like AWS developer support, or from some research program that they're doing, and they can say to you, like, “Hey, we see that you have these roles in your account with account ID such-and-such, and we know that you're using EKS, and you're using ECS,” that phishing email becomes a lot more believable when suddenly this outside party seemingly knows so much about your account. And that might be something that you would think, “Oh, well only a real AWS employee or AWS would know that.” So, from my perspective, I think it's best to try and keep your account ID secret. I actually redact it from every screenshot that I publish, or at the very least, I try to. At the same time, though, it's not the kind of thing that's going to get somebody in your account in a single step, so I can totally see why some folks aren't too concerned about it.Corey: I feel like we also got a bit of a red herring coming from AWS blog posts themselves, where they always will give screenshots explaining what they do, and redact the account ID in every case. And the reason that I was told at one point was, “Oh, we have an internal provisioning system that's different. It looks different, and I don't want to confuse people whenever I wind up doing a screenshot.” And that's great, and I appreciate that. And part of me wonders on one level how accurate is that?Because sure, I understand that you don't necessarily want to distract people with something that looks different, but then I found out that the system is called Isengard and, yeah, it's great. They've mentioned it periodically in blog posts, and talks, and the rest. And part of me now wonders, oh, wait a minute. Is it actually because they don't want to disclose the differences between those systems, or is it because they don't have license rights publicly to use the word Isengard and don't want to get sued by whoever owns the rights to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So, one wonders what the real incentives are in different cases. But I've always viewed account IDs as being the sort of thing that eh, you probably want to share them around all the time, but it also doesn't necessarily hurt.Nick: Exactly, yeah. It's not the kind of thing you want to share with the world immediately, but it doesn't really hurt in the end.Corey: There was an early time when the partner network was effectively determining tiers of partner by how much spend they influenced, and the way that you've demonstrated that was by giving account IDs for your client accounts. The only verification at the time, to my understanding was that, “Yep, that mapped to the client you said it did.” And that was it. So, I can understand back in those days not wanting to muddy those waters. But those days are also long passed.So, I get it. I'm not going to be the first person to advertise mine, but if you can discover my account ID by looking at a bucket, it doesn't really keep me up at night.So, all of those things considered, we've had a pretty wide-ranging conversation here about a variety of things. What's next? What interests you as far as where you're going to start looking and exploring—and exploiting as the case may be—various cloud services? hackthe.cloud—which there is the dot in there, which also turns it into a domain; excellent choice—is absolutely going to be a great collection for a lot of what you find and for other people to contribute and learn from one another. But where are you aimed at? What's next?Nick: Yeah, so one thing I've been really interested in has been fuzzing the AWS API. As anyone who's ever used AWS before knows, there are hundreds of services with thousands of potential API endpoints. And so from a fuzzing perspective, there is a wide variety of things for us to potentially affect or potentially find vulnerabilities in. I'm currently working on a library that will allow me to make that fuzzing a lot easier. You could use things like botocore, Boto3, like, some of the AWS SDKs.The problem though, is that those are designed for, sort of like, the happy path where you can format your request the way Amazon wants. As a security researcher or as someone doing fuzzing, I kind of want to send random gibberish sometimes, or I want to malform my requests. And so that library is still in production, but it has already resulted in a bug. While I was fuzzing part of the AWS API, I happened to notice that I broke Elastic Beanstalk—quite literally—when [laugh] when I was going through the AWS console, I got the big red error message of, “[unintelligible 00:29:35] that request parameter is null.” And I was like, “Huh. Well, why is it null?”And come to find out as a result of that, there is a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic—well, there was a HTML injection vulnerability in the Elastic Beanstalk, for the AWS console. Pivoting from there, the Elastic Beanstalk uses Angular 1.8.1, or at least it did when I found it. As a result of that, we can modify that HTML injection to do template injection. And for the AngularJS crowd, template injection is basically cross-site scripting [laugh] because there is no sandbox anymore, at least in that version. And so as a result of that, I was able to get cross-site scripting in the AWS console, which is pretty exciting. That doesn't tend to happen too frequently.Corey: No that is not a typical issue that winds up getting disclosed very often.Nick: Definitely, yeah. And so I was excited about it, and considering the fact that my library for fuzzing is literally, like, not even halfway done, or is barely halfway done, I'm looking forward to what other things I can find with it.Corey: I look forward to reading more. And at the time of this recording, I should point out that this has not been finalized or made public, so I'll be keeping my eyes open to see what happens with this. And hopefully, this will be old news by the time this episode drops. If not, well, [laugh] this might be an interesting episode once it goes out.Nick: Yeah. I hope they'd have it fixed by then. They haven't responded to it yet other than the, “Hi, we've received your email. Thanks for checking in.” But we'll see how that goes.Corey: Watching news as it breaks is always exciting. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, and how you go about things, where can they find you?Nick: Yeah, so you can find me at a couple different places. On Twitter I'm @frichette_n. I also write a blog where I contribute a lot of my research at frechetten.com as well as Hacking the Cloud. I contribute a lot of the AWS stuff that gets thrown on there. And it's also open-source, so if anyone else would like to contribute or share their knowledge, you're absolutely welcome to do so. Pull requests are open and excited for anyone to contribute.Corey: Excellent. And we will of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:31:42]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Nick: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me on. I had a great time.Corey: Nick Frechette, penetration tester and team lead for State Farm. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me why none of these things are actually vulnerabilities, but simultaneously should not be discussed in public, ever.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

If you're of the age that your mom and dad retired 20 or 30 years ago, the world was a much different place when they walked away from their paychecks. Let's talk about how things are different now. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome into the podcast. It's Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Hanging out with me to talk about this being not our father's retirement now. That's our podcast topic this week, not your father's not our fathers, whatever you want to say, we're going to go into this conversation about how things are so much different even just 20 years ago when it comes to retirement. And some things to think about before we walk away from that paycheck. And there's a lot that's obviously changed and obviously we're seeing a lot of turmoil coming off of COVID and things of that nature. So there's a lot of good topical stuff in here for us to discuss, but let's jump in and say hi to the guys first, Nick, what's going on, buddy? How are you doing?   Nick: Pretty well, staying busy.   Speaker 1: Staying busy. Well, that's always good. John, how are you, my friend? Last time we talked you were having some troubles with the kids. Everybody not sleeping and things like that. Doing better?   John: Yeah, for the most part, actually, I don't know if I've mentioned it. We got them to share a room which has helped their sleeping habits a bit. So we've been sleeping through the night. So it's been a few years, my friend, of consistent nights of sleeping.   Speaker 1: There you go.   John: Starting to feel pretty good again.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. Well, very good. So you never know what's going to make the trigger there. So I'm glad to hear that. Do you guys remember these commercials? I'm a little bit older than you, but I know a lot of our listeners might remember these as well, if you guys don't. But back, maybe late '70s, early '80s, Oldsmobile was trying to rebrand and make the Oldsmobile a little bit cooler. And so they had these commercials and it would always say things like, "It's not your father's Oldsmobile." You guys remember those at all?   Nick: I do actually.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And so they would try to rebrand it that way. So that's kind of the idea I had for today's conversation. It's not our father's retirement. My dad retired in '93. He passed away in '96. So he didn't have a very long retirement, but even just the principles and some of the things are completely different here 30 years later.   Speaker 1: So let's talk about a couple of these things and how the world's changed and how really planning has also changed and what you guys do and what folks need to consider when they get closer to retirement. First of all, the concept of retirement is not actually that old, a hundred years ago you didn't retire. You worked until you dropped. Right? So really retirement's only been around since, the idea of it really since the late '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, so on and so forth. And it was this thing where you got to 65, you retired, you were done. Maybe you sat on the front porch and did little, but nowadays more and more people work beyond 65. They want to, not just have to, they want to, and that's okay. Right? There's nothing wrong with that.   John: Yeah. I would definitely, we see that in our office here, Bob Perry's 76, 77, he's still working. We joke that his wife won't let him retire, but he really enjoys coming in and the environment here and just being with everyone, it gives him stuff to do and he provides a lot of insight for us as well. So it's great to have him around so I could see where in his situation or other people's, if they're somewhere they enjoy, what's the point of retiring if you enjoy it?   Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. And not only that, Nick, but a lot of times people, again, they just want to do some other things and maybe you don't need the full job income, like you used to have, the big career, but maybe you do need a little extra money to help with the plan or something, but it's just a way to kind of have some fun and maybe make a little extra scratch on the side.   Nick: Yeah. I think ultimately what happens is that almost one analogy to think about, you see things like football players, baseball players, et cetera. Here you have people that retire early, they maybe have a career 5 to 10, maybe 15 years. And obviously their situation is a little bit different from a perspective of the money that they're retiring with and the bandwidth they have to route the time between retirement and their life expectancy. However, there's probably a little bit more similarities than people realize where ultimately when you see interviews with people like that, the things that you hear them talk about are missing the structure, missing the comradery, coworkers slash teammates, those sorts of things.   Nick: So, there's actually a lot of similarities and it's almost keeping that sort of structure and help keep my mind sharp, keep people engaged. We definitely see patterns from the perspective of, there are some people that they do a great job of having hobbies and they know that when they retire, they've got a list of things that they want to do, whether it's travel, whether it's hobbies, whether it's a small sort of business. And then you have people that really struggle. And I was having this conversation actually with my parents this weekend. My dad is a retired fireman, but he's been working, he had his own small business for the last maybe 15 years. So he retired as a fireman really early.   Nick: My mom's a nurse. She works a couple days a week now, but she's looking to slow down. And my dad was talking about a friend of his, maybe like 10 years older, that still does some work because he can't just sit around, he's got to stay busy. And my dad was like, "Well, he needs hobbies." And I said, "No, you need some hobbies. You don't have any hobbies." And he looked at me like, "I had never really thought about that before." And we've had different conversations, but the point that I'm trying to make is a lot of times, we look at other people, we look at other situations and we perceive ourselves in a different way. And sometimes just taking that self inventory and asking ourselves these sorts of questions, it really is important because there's many more similarities that we realize. So...   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: So we've tasked my nieces who are younger to help, start coming up with some hobbies for my father, their grandfather, to keep him sharp and engaged. So...   Speaker 1: Well, I think we went through this cycle. Like I mentioned earlier, a hundred years ago you just worked until you dropped. And then we said, "Oh, we can do this thing called retirement." And then people started retiring and sitting around and doing nothing. And then you wither away that way too. So I think we've now started to learn over this past a hundred years that, okay, it's got to be a bit of both. You, you work really hard, you get to retirement, you hit retirement, but you still need to be active. You still need to do things and have things that interest you, if you want to just sit on the front porch and make wicker baskets, then that's great, do that, if that's what you want, but more and more people are-   John: Real quick, Nick loves making wicker baskets.   Speaker 1: Does he really? I got to get one now, I need a custom wicker basket.   Nick: No wicker baskets.   Speaker 1: Oh man, just crushed my dreams right there. But anyway, I think that's a really great point is having something to retire to. Now, the next point on this guys, is being retired, it can be more expensive nowadays than working. So, we used to see that 20% less is what you need in retirement. Well, that might not be the case now. And we've just been having conversations as well about inflation and stuff. So it can be quite expensive to retire if you're not careful.   Nick: It absolutely can. Especially depending on where you live from the perspective of the things that you may be looking to get into or do. I live in a downtown area in St. Pete and I absolutely see how, anybody that lives in this space, all you have to do is walk down the street to grab a coffee, to grab a lunch and depending upon your lifestyle, you've just got more time on your hands to do the things that you want to do. So, so why wouldn't it be more expensive if we're just doing these things more often, more frequently, so it can definitely be the case. And that's even from a discretionary standpoint, let alone the health care costs and all the things that people do to stay healthier, stay more engaged, live longer, all those sorts of things.   Nick: And ultimately, one of the things that we'll have conversations with people, sometimes people come in with an open mind thinking like, "Hey, this might be happening. I may spend more money." Other times we have people that they're absolutely convinced, " No I'm going to spend 50%, 60% of what I spent before." And that's sometimes the question to them is, "Why would you? Is that what you want to do? Or is this just something that you read?" Because I would guess ultimately you want to enjoy what you've saved up for and worked hard for. So, at what point in life or maybe even in the last 30 years, one of the questions, at one point in the last 30 years, have you lived only for needs and realistically here in the U.S That's for most people that's not too common, ultimately we live in the things that we bought. We enjoy the times that we want to spend with others, all those sorts of things. So, that's an important conversation to have.   Speaker 1: No, I definitely agree with you there. John, retirees are facing more problems than ever too. Well society, we're all facing more problems than ever before, social media, so on and so forth. Just the inundation of information, but longevity, I think maybe longevity guys might be a key to this whole conversation today because it magnifies all of these things. And that's certainly going to be the case when juggling more problems because we're living longer, so much longer, the body's able, we're figuring out lots of great ways to keep the body going, but sometimes we're having some difficulties when it comes to the mental side, dementia is on the rise, things of that nature. And that gets pretty costly.   John: Yeah. Yeah. Previously we talked about retirement changing, people had pensions which lasted for their life. And the shift has been away from pensions to putting the responsibility on the individual where now they have just basically savings, whether it's cash or investments or whatever, but now you need to be very cautious, we have to be very careful that that's going to last you 30 plus years. And that's why it's important to have the plan to make sure that your money is going to last throughout retirement, which is really the biggest concern for retirees. Some other things we've seen popping up more recently and we've just dealt with this with a client where their they're aging parents, they were providing financial assistance for their parents in assisted living facilities and things like that, or having helpers.   John: So I have one client where they're were assisting their parents with that. So they weren't really going on vacation and enjoying their time. And then the parent passed away and then with everything that's happened recently, their son lost a job and then they were not helping out their son with expenses. So it was a double whammy for them is that they can't truly enjoy retirement because they're helping family members out, which again, no one plans for this, you just happen in this situation, but it's something that you always want to keep track of.   Nick: Yeah. That's kind of that sandwich generation that they talk about a little bit and it really started coming to the forefront back during the recession, '08, '09, '10, where there was a lot of kids coming out of college, couldn't get jobs, parents aging, all these sorts of things. So I would say baby boomers definitely have their hands full with all the different things that they have to juggle. And so having peace of mind of having that plan in place and understanding how their money is going to work in retirement is more important than ever.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and like I said, longevity is probably the key to this whole conversation. So we have to sell fun. Right? We don't have pensions now. Well, not many do. Right? So I think something like 15% or less of the population has pensions. It's an interesting statistic, but we're talking 30, 40 years. I was just chatting with somebody yesterday, guys who they're 72 and their mom and dad both are still alive. They're in their 90s and they're also dealing with helping their 40 year old children. So there's a lot in this to unpack.   Nick: Yeah. Yeah. We see it all the time. We see it all the time and it can be pretty stressful. And a lot of times what we'll try to do and go through with people and this even ties into some other previous podcasts, that we'll have from the perspective of, "Hey, my kids are looking to buy a house. I want to give them money for a down payment." And we'll talk about things like, "All right, well, where does that money have to come from? How does it impact your overall plan?"   Nick: So we try to walk it through and we try, we joke where we try not to be the money police and tell people what they can and can't do, but we just help them understand the impact of their decisions and trying to make sure that they do it from a perspective of viewing their retirement first and making sure that they're okay because they also don't want to be a burden down the line for their kids. So it can be a really slippery slope and making sure that the decisions that are made along the way position them to be able to help, but it can be difficult, especially like you said, planning for that 30, 40 year retirement.   Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And it's a situation where we're just going to continue to see more of it. So having a good strategy, having a good plan is going to be paramount to getting through all these hurdles and things that we've got going on. Because I imagine at the end of the day, nobody comes in and says, "Hey, I'd like to have less of a lifestyle than I have now in retirement." No one wants to go backwards. So you want to make sure that you are having those conversations to move yourself forward or at least maintain into retirement. So that's our topic this week. So we all know things are different than they were 20 or 30 years ago. But when you really start dissecting it, especially from a financial standpoint, there's just a lot to unpack.   Speaker 1: So sit down and have a conversation. If you're not already with a team that can help you like the team at PFG Private Wealth, John and Nick, and the whole team there to get on the counter, reach out to them. (813) 286-7776. If you've got some questions or concerns, reach out on the website if you'd like to as well pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the show. Retirement Planning Redefined on your smartphone there. If you've got an Apple phone, for example, Apple Podcasts is already on your phone. You can just open up that app and type in Retirement, Planning Redefined, and subscribe that way or Google or whatever platform you use. Most of that stuff's already pre-installed on your phones anyway, but you can find it all at pfgprivatewealth.com. Guys, thanks for hanging out with me this week. I appreciate it. John. I'm bummed that he's not going to make me a wicker basket.   John: I've been trying to get one, he won't do it.   Nick: I'm not the creative type.   Speaker 1: Not the creative type. All right, guys. Well, thanks for hanging out again. I appreciate it. I'll see you next time. John, take care, buddy.   John: Have a good one.   Speaker 1: We'll see you later. Nick, take care. Have yourself a good week.   Nick: All right. You too. Take care.   Speaker 1: We'll talk to you next time here on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

In this episode we discuss what to do when you finally have some space. 00:02:35 - Empty Space Well, this is something I definitely noticed with myself is, you get that empty space and there's usually like a sigh of relief. Yeah, man. You know, maybe something got canceled or, you know, a meeting got canceled or something shifted and it's like, oh, now I don't have to do that thing. And whew, man, it's like sigh of relief for a second. But immediately the mind is like, well, what am I going to fill it with?  NICK I don't even know that the mind go. I feel like it's sort of this subconscious, you start just filling or maybe yeah, because there's a nervousness, like there's space. When am I going to do? And then at least if I'm not grounded or anchored, I'll just start all of a sudden floating around the house and walking outside and picking a plum and coming back in and just like things that don't need to happen right then and there. And before, you know, an hour's gone. KISMA 00:004:00 - What is taking space? So describe what is taking space.  KISMA Well, I mean, to, to me in the truest sense of it taking spaces, like I'm not going to, I'm just not going to do anything.  NICK I'm just going to be with myself.  KISMA I'm just going to like sit and be a maniac, you know, and be with myself. NICK Just like be with my feelings, my thoughts, my body, my energy, that can be incredibly uncomfortable for people.  KISMA  It's really, it's really a weird experience, I think, you know, and how I put it in the message, you know, is like pure perception. NICK 00:05:35 - Not that easy It's it's, it's, it's actually not that easy.  NICK No, we're so used to being distracted. Yes. And then, then there's a feeling like, well, I should be doing something, so I'm taking space, but I'll read this book or I'll devour this book or something that man just being with ourselves. And it's interesting because we're the ones, you know, between our ears, we are with ourselves 24/7, we are with ourselves more than any other human yet to just be and have that space can feel so uncomfortable. KISMA 00:07:25 - Practices, Tips & Tools So what about some practices, some tips, some tools for people to just be, where do they start?  KISMA It's a little hard to instruct because it's, you know, it's the opposite of doing anything. NICK Right.  KISMA That you have to actually like make a decision to just do nothing.  NICK What would one possibly feel, or what can they expect when they enter this decision of I'm just going to sit and be for five minutes a day.  KISMA Well, that's a really interesting question because, um, I think it could be like, really, really, I know in myself, like I have really different experiences of that. You know, sometimes it's like really relaxing and just like, you know, kind of  NICK getting cosmic. KISMA Yeah. And then other times it's, there's, you have some really deep insights from that space. You know, other times you just kinda just feels like a sigh of relief, you know? So I, I can't really say, you know, but all I can say is like, you gotta try it, just try it for yourself. NICK 00:09:27 - When one takes space Well, I think when one takes space and you're able to just be, that's when the intuition starts to come in, like there's just there's quietude and it might take, it might take some practice or it might just happen automatically for people's like, yeah, I'm just going to make that decision. I'm just going to be bit without the noise, without leaning in and having to do something, you're going to feel the connection that is there anyways, with your intuitive channel, with your spiritual channel, it's just, there is that space and depth for you to start to hear a start to know or start to receive. KISMA 00:12:35 - Anytime So before we sign off choice decision to take the space, is there a certain time of day that you recommend?  KISMA No. Anytime, anytime. Cause it doesn't have to be a lot, like five minutes will, it can seem like an eternity.  NICK  So perhaps it would be like the taking space challenge five minutes a day.  KISMA Yeah. Anytime, anywhere like you can just sit on a park bench and just be, you can be that weirdo. Who's just sitting there looking at the tree. NICK I think back in the day. That's what people did, like we're on our phones and we're eating and we're doing all sorts of crazy things.  KISMA Yeah. You see people it's like I say, I always crack up at that meme when I, whenever it floats through my feet, you know, it's like I was in a coffee shop and I saw this guy sitting there just drinking a cup of coffee, like a maniac, like, like people don't do that, you know, just go somewhere and just drink a cup of coffee, you know? NICK 00:15:43 - Do Nothing So five minutes a day. Doesn't matter what time everyone just sit and be with yourself.  KISMA Yeah. Yeah. One, try it in the middle of the day.  NICK Yeah. I bet there'll be a renewed energy for the rest of the day.  KISMA Try, you know, you can try it in the morning. Like that might be a little easier to start and don't meditate. NICK Don't meditate, you know, just, you're not meditating. Don't go to God, let God come to you.  KISMA Oh, dang Kimsa. My mic drop right there. Yeah. I like that. Um, you're not meditating. You're not reading or studying. You're not contemplating. Is it like none of it's really. I mean, what I like just do nothing. NICK

At first glance, each of these statements seem like basic common sense that everyone agrees with. But when we look at the way people actually behave with their money, it seems that common sense is actually a bit uncommon. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Welcome in to the podcast. This is Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick. Hanging out with me talking investing, finance, and retirement. Uncommon Sense is going to be our theme on this podcast. I've got some statements here that I think all of us agree are basic common sense. But yet when we go to do these things, we tend to do the opposite. We act a bit uncommon. So that's going to be good. We're going to have a fun conversation with this and stick around. We're going to jump into that. But first let's welcome the guys in and see what's going on. John, how are you, buddy?   John: Good. How are you doing?   Speaker 1: Hanging in there pretty good. We were just chatting before we rolled the tape here on the podcast. A little sleepy. The kids did not want to cooperate last night. But other than that, things are going good for you?   John: Yeah, yeah. Things are going well.   Speaker 1: Very good. Very good. And Nick, how are you, my friend?   Nick: Doing pretty well. We're staying busy. The heat is starting to settle in, in Florida here. So although I'd say we had a pretty awesome spring weather wise.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: The humidity is starting to kick in. So kind of a realization that John and I were talking about the other day, that we can't believe it's already between COVID, chaos of everything going on, that it's already almost halfway through the year, so.   Speaker 1: Well, 2020 was like the longest decade ever, even though it was only a year.   Nick: Yeah.   Speaker 1: And then this year seems to be hauling pretty fast. So it's going pretty quickly. Hey, speaking of the weather, actually, how did the event go? Last time, we did the podcast, the prior one, we chatted a little bit about the golf tourney you guys were working on. How'd that go?   John: It went really well. We ended up having about 108 golfers total, which we were told for a first event would be excellent.   Speaker 1: That's awesome.   John: We hit that goal. And we're just finalizing the numbers. But it looks like we're going to be doing some pretty, a good size donations to Pepin Academies and then Southeastern Guide Dogs. So we're excited about that. And we actually, the winning team's going to get a nice invitational jacket, so we're getting them sized up. So they're excited about that. That was kind of a surprise to them. So at the end we had a tailor there, and getting their sizes and showed them the jacket and they were pretty excited about it.   Speaker 1: Very cool. So are you guys hustling and bustling all through that? Did you enjoy the process of putting an event together like that? And would you definitely do it again?   John: Nick, do you want to take that one?   Nick: Yeah. It was an interesting sort of a learning process. It's always, just like anything else, there's a lot of collaboration. And so, a lot of people, a lot of bodies required. And it's a first-time event, having to get everybody on the same page and organized. It was a little chaotic. But ultimately we chatted about this in our meeting afterwards. Ultimately, I think the experience for the people that participated was smooth. And if you ask them, they wouldn't have even noticed the things that we did as putting it on.   Speaker 1: Right.   Nick: The feedback that we received was good. A lot of money went to charity. So all's well that ends well.   Speaker 1: The hallmark of a good event then if the participants think it's great and it runs smoothly, they don't need not know about the chaos. Right. That's the way you know you've done a good job. So very cool. Well, kudos guys. Glad to hear that. I'll be looking forward to some final numbers later.   John: Yeah, yeah. We had a very good team all around. So it was a truly team effort to get it done, so.   Speaker 1: That's great.   John: It was good to work with everybody.   Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's great. I'm glad to hear that. And definitely look forward to hearing more about that in the future. But for now, let's go ahead and jump into our topic this week. Again, like I said, guys, I've got some statements here, some basic axioms that we all hold to be accurate. I think we all would say that that's common sense. We all agree with it. But yet what you guys see and what advisors see all across the country, a lot of times with these is people tend to do the opposite.   Speaker 1: So talk through that a little bit, what you see and maybe some ways to counteract that. And we'll start with a classic, which is the buy low and sell high. You're not going to find a single person that disagrees with that theory. We do that. I don't know, gas shopping, right? Gas has been going up. So you're like, oh, hey, I heard it's 5 cents cheaper over at this station, and you'll go over there. But when it comes to investing, it's almost always the opposite: If you are undisciplined or don't have a plan type investor where you panic and you do the wrong thing.   John: Yeah. And I think the reason why is really emotion. Investing becomes very emotional because it's your money, it's your nest egg. You're going to see it there. So when that dives into it just, it's very hard to make easy decisions. And a perfect example is the pandemic in 2020 when it started in March. Stocks dropped very fast. I think over like a two or three week period, there was an almost 30 to 40% drop of the S&P, and which is a great opportunity to buy stocks cheap. But what we're hearing from some people it's, hey, should I sell? And then really it should have been, should I be buying more into it? But against the uncertainty, the emotions of not knowing what's going to happen. A similar thing happened in 2008. With the bank and liquidity concerns, same thing here. Stocks were dropping. Good time to buy. But the thought process and emotion made people do the reverse.   Nick: Yeah. And it's tricky because intuitively sometimes you look at what's happening and oftentimes by the time that most people in general, kind of in the general public, notice what's happening, a lot of the volatility's already happened. So in other words, once they notice it's really going down, it's already gone down a bunch and once they notice it's going up, it's already gone up a bunch. And so tend to be late on both sides, which is not good.   Nick: And John and I will kind of joke with each other where I'm definitely the more emotional one out of both of us and he's less so. And so, we absolutely understand the emotions of things, and even being in day-to-day, it's important to understand how it is. It really just kind of goes back to having a plan. And that's what we try to do even back in, when everything went down with the pandemic is bring everybody back to the plan. Make them realize that, hey, we've got a plan for these sorts of things. These are unfortunate times. But we have these things baked in for happening, and so we're just going to hold the line.   Speaker 1: Well, I think with emotion being the culprit there, that's why working with an advisor in a good team is helpful. I'm not going to say you guys are disinterested. You obviously clearly care about your clients and what you do for them because it's very important work. But at the same time, you can't approach it with a little bit less passion, I suppose, or panic than the person might. Because to your point, John, it's their money, right? And you guys are going to do the very best that you can for it. But it helps you make, it helps you look at things a little bit more objectively, I guess that's where I'm trying to go with that. So.   John: Yeah.   Speaker 1: That's a good way to do it. So, that's one. Let's go with a second one here. Not paying any more in taxes than we have to. Well, that's like a duh, right? Nobody volunteers to sign up to ... I don't think anybody's standing out on the street corner with a sign saying, Let me pay more taxes, please. Yet, when you guys start to look at things and you work with an advisor and a CPA and they start digging into people's financial and retirement situations, often we are paying more than we need to be. We're not being as efficient as we could be, I suppose.   Nick: Yeah. And some of the areas that we'll see these sorts of things are, and again, this will tie into the emotional decisions, which we definitely understand money's emotional. But as an example, somebody's retiring or getting close to retiring, maybe they've got 80 to $100,000 left on their mortgage and they want to cash out a bunch of money from retirement accounts, and just pay it off quicker in one fell swoop. And they may not realize from a timing standpoint, number one, the impact that a large distribution like that could have on their taxes. And then the snowball effect that it might have on costs of Medicare or different things like that. So, having a strategy and always going back to the idea of planning long-term and having different types of accounts that have different types of taxation in retirement, it's really important.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I would agree with you on that because taxes, there's all those little things like, it's not what we make, it's what we keep, so on and so forth. But there is a lot more ways to be efficient when it comes to, especially for retirees and pre-retirees, when it comes to taxes. And of course, everything we're seeing right now with increased spending and inflation and so on and so forth, taxes is going to continue to be a really integral part of our retirement plan. So it's important to make sure that you're working with somebody who is taking that into account.   Speaker 1: And another important part of this is keeping costs low, guys. Like I said earlier about the gas situation or bargain shopping, pretty much everybody's looking at buy one, get one free, or 50% off things. We look for these kinds of things in all aspects of life. But then again, when it comes to investing, sometimes we're not thinking about that. You'll have the person say, I want to keep costs low. And my guy or gal only charges me 1%, and they're really not taking into account everything else, as well, right?   John: Yeah. That's absolutely correct. Again, it can be taking into consideration from a common sense standpoint. But sometimes there are better times to buckle down on certain things than others. And ultimately you're just trying to make solid decisions with the information that you have available to you. So, it's anybody. You mentioned inflation. It's always interesting with things like that because anybody that has gone to the grocery store in the last two years, they know that things cost more. And so it doesn't when it's not talked about in the media as much or whatever. They might talk about it with their friends or complain about it with their spouse or something like that.   John: But then when it starts being talked about in the media, it catches up. So ultimately, I think people know that these sorts of things have been happening. But now that it's being talked about more, in general, and there are other assets that are tracked more from a consumer price index and those sorts of things, to actually show inflation is a legitimate thing. Especially with all of the money that's been being printed for the last decade, really. Now it's a good time to reassess and make some smart decisions to keep costs down.   Speaker 1: Yeah. No, definitely. There's hidden fees in all those little things, and that's actually going to lead into my next one here. For example, I'm going to pull a grandma-ism, guys. Another one of these axioms we hear is "don't put all your eggs in one basket". And I'm going to take this from the standpoint of people who have a lot of the same thing, they'll say, John or Nick, I've got 10 mutual funds that I got from 10 different companies, right. So I'm "clearly diversified" and I'm not getting charged very much. And they're completely wrong in both of those counts.   John: Yeah. We see that a lot in the 401k space because a lot of that is the people are picking their own funds and they'll do stuff like that where they'll pick six, seven mutual funds or whatever. And they say, hey, "I'm diversified." But in reality, they're all similar type funds. So for example, they all could be large cap funds. So what that means is when the market goes up, they're all going to do relatively the same thing. Give or take some percentage points on which one's performing a little bit better. When the market goes down, they're going to do the same thing.   John: The whole point of diversifying is so that the portfolio has some zig and zag. So kind of sounds weird to say this, but in reality, when something's going up, you want something else going down or not doing what the other investment are doing. And that actually comes down to proper asset allocation where you have maybe some large cap funds, and then you also have some fixed income funds and some real estate. So everything's not the same type of asset class. And that's really what you want to focus on. On really diversifying is not just having multiple funds, but having the right mix of multiple funds.   Nick: And even in addition to that, diversify from the perspective of taxes. You don't necessarily, we feel, end up in retirement with only having pre-tax money that's going to be fully taxed at whatever bracket that you're in, in retirement.   Speaker 1: Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Nick: These good examples currently, there's a decent chance and we've been talking about it for years, but there's a decent chance that taxes will go up. There's a price for printing money for a long time. Whether it's cutting taxes and more spending, et cetera, eventually there is going to be a price for that. So having options from the perspective of pre-tax money, broth money, a taxable brokerage account, what that utilizes capital gains, all these sorts of things end up really paying off down the road.   Speaker 1: A lot of times that whole diversification conversation comes back into play with people. And often what you guys find, John, to your point, you were talking about that a little bit is that somebody who's got a lot of the same thing. There's just a ton of overlap. And typically, it's almost always large cap or something. And if you think about this year, right, small cap was outperforming large cap in the first quarter. And maybe you don't have enough here and there. And that's that point of that having a little bit. That's when something's going up, something is going down. Most people just don't truly realize that. They think, oh, I've got a target date fund; I'm groovy. Or whatever that looks like. And then what ends up happening for the last one is that you have people then turn around and say, ooh, I want to jump in on dogecoin, or whatever, because Elon Musk made a tweet. And then the next week he makes another tweet and the thing tanks. And so market timing is virtually impossible.   John: Yeah, correct. Ultimately, you can't do it. It comes back to what we talked about earlier. When people are trying to time the market, it's really emotional of saying, hey, when's a good time to get in or get out. And this was something that we saw a little bit about, not necessarily so much with the pandemic, a lot of people stayed the course and maybe because it happened so fast. But with the election at the end of last year, either way we saw people that were trying to pull out and time it depending on who won the election on when to get back in.   John: And unfortunately it didn't work out. And it doesn't work ... Either way it doesn't work out because it's always so hard to say, hey, now is the right time because as we saw, the market went up. And then it's like, well, do I go in now or do I wait until it goes down? And you can find over the last five or six, seven years, if you've been waiting, you've been waiting a long time to get back in. So it's always best to have a plan and stick to your plan and make sure that you're invested correctly so you can just stay the course of what you're trying to do.   Nick: And even further with that, ultimately, if you decide that you're going to exit and try to time it, the time that you have to then get back in, is usually the most basically, disgusting time to have to do it.   Speaker 1: When it hurts.   Nick: It's the most painful time. It's the time of the most chaos because that's usually where the bottom is. And so it's really difficult to try to time that.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Nick: In fact, we've had conversations with clients before where we say, hey, our objective is to hold the line. If you want to exit, we'll exit for you, but you got to tell us when to get back in. We're not going to exit at your request and then move in at our determination.   Nick: If we're going to exit, then you also have to let us know when to enter back in. And so sometimes we've found that, putting it in that, in those terms, ultimately ends up helping people just decide to hold the line. Once they realize like, oh, well, I've got to tell you when to get back in? Then that helps them realize, oh, okay, I get it. Like, I'm probably not going to be able to do that. Or by the time that I feel comfortable enough to tell you, it's too late.   Speaker 1: Yeah. You're right back at that emotional sticking point, right? To your point of it's typically it's painful or it's the worst time, or it's just really uncomfortable to do it. And of course, you're trying to be right twice in something that is super, super fickle. So again, these are all some basic common sense things we can all agree on. And yet we tend to do the opposite. And that's where it comes into play to really work with a team who does this day in and day out to help us through those things so that we don't trip ourselves up. As the saying goes, "We're often our own worst enemy." So do yourself a favor if you haven't done so. Have a conversation about your retirement journey and some of the things that we've covered today on the podcast.   Speaker 1: Reach out to John and Nick. As always, you should check with a qualified professional before you take any action on anything you hear anyway on our show or any others financially-related. So reach out to John and Nick at (813) 286-7776. That's (813) 286-7776. Or stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, Retirement Planning Redefined. You can find all the information right there at the website. Again to subscribe on Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever platform you like. I'm going to sign off this week for John and Nick and myself. So thanks for hanging out with us here on the show, and we'll catch you next time on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick.

In this episode we discuss Redefining Normal. 2:48 Venturing Out So today we're talking about redefining normal and this really was inspired by a conversation we were having. I was mentioning how,  going out into the world now that things are opening up. I mean, they've been opening up for awhile, but I think we've started venturing out more than usual.  KISMA I'd say that's fair.  Nick I even took a trip. I flew across the country, and it was fine, but it's just, it's a little bit sensitive. And so my go-to is like, well, I can just be inside the house and be a hermit and work from there and teach from there and coach from here, you know, like everything. KISMA 3:48 What happens to those three bodies? Many people can resonate with that idea of like, well, let's just stay home and feel all cuddly and cozy and safe and never go out again.  KISMA I think I even more so have that tendency of like being the home body.  Nick Yeah you're more hermity than I am, but I've grown into being quite the hermit over COVID.  KISMA Yeah. I think there's that part of your nature too. That's just like, yeah, we're good. We got everything that we need right here. Nick And we do, I'm so grateful. But then what does that mean for, you know, if we just look at three pieces, your mindset, your physical body and the energy body. If we're not actually out in the world, mindset and you know, emotional body, but if we're not out in the world interacting and being with other humans, what happens to those three bodies? You look at the mental, emotional and the physical and the energy bodies. KISMA 6:40 The inertia sets in So long as you're getting some fresh air and things like that, do all your exercise, you can maintain your body. Like you can do all that stuff. You can maintain a really great immune system in that way and really great health. But you have to make concerted efforts to do it. Well, you know, what we saw over the past year is that certain people did that and certain people didn't. We're not making any of it right or wrong, but you know, people went through their own thing around it and some people got super fired up. We decluttered the whole house. I learned how to cook a lot better, you know, like all sorts of things and, and other people drank a lot and just really kind of closed up in their holes. In TV, again, for all different reasons and we're not making any of it wrong, but that has obviously the physical effect and that inertia sets in. Nick 11:52 Self-trust Not knowing who to trust and that erodes a self-trust. And so now it's like entering back into the world and the trust isn't really there. And I think ultimately, you know, cause I want to give our listeners some tips on how to reboot the whole system so you can have your normal and it's healthy for you. I think self-trust is a really good place to start because if you're not trusting yourself, you won't really know what your true normal is, what a healthy normal is.  KISMA That's right.  Nick So maybe it's spending five to fifteen minutes every day, just kind of anchoring into your core values, your beliefs, whether it's affirmations, whether it's Nick's meditations or my meditations, but to really get centered, you know, for us, it's like, or at least for me, I'd be like connect to Source, connect to God, connect to Universe, remember who you are as this spiritual being, and really bring in that so that you can trust yourself as a human being again, then you can start to trust the world outside or at least trust that you can navigate it. KISMA 16:39 Dysfunction can be very normal I think those are things that are really important. Cause a lot of things are very normal, dysfunction in family is extremely normal. But is that the kind of normal that we want? Nick Exactly.  KISMA And you see it from family to family, like, remember when you were a kid and you know, you do dinner at your house, the way that you do it. And then you go over to your friend's house and it's like radically different. That's like one normal versus another. Nick 18:07 New Normal So when I think about a new normal, I think about it kind of in terms of, well what's really that conducive environment for myself, that's going to help me thrive, help me be more of me and help me do the things that I'm here to do.  Nick That's right. Get to what you want, what you want to do while you're here and create the normal reverse engineer. I like it.  KISMA

Sometimes the easiest way to learn about something is make it really simple. Like some of the first true/false tests you might have taken in school, let’s play a round of fact or fiction to test your financial planning acuity. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Hey everybody. Welcome into this edition of the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with us here on retirement planning, redefined with John and Nick, financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth. Find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. Fun podcast this week, we're going to have a little fun with some financial fact or fiction and test our financial planning acuity with the guys in just a minute, but let's say, hey and see what's going on. John, how are you my friend? John: I'm doing good. How are you? Marc: Doing pretty good hanging out and doing well hope you guys are doing the same down there. Nick, what's going on with you? Any new action on that attorney you guys were telling us about? Nick: No, we're still plugging away on the golf tournament. We're looking forward to doing that. This the first time that John and I have been involved in putting together a golf tournament. We're not big golfers, it's definitely an interesting process, but we're looking forward to... I think our two charities are going to be locally Pepin Academies and Southeastern Guide Dogs. We're looking forward to raising some money for charity. And then, we also actually recently sponsored a run through the Herald Center, which is a part of the USF Tampa campus and through the college of public health, that's done to support in studies, family violence, which is a huge issue really in any community. They have a run coming up and we're sponsoring that. Anybody that's involved locally with that, we'll see the name of the podcast and those sorts of things. We always stay involved in the community, enjoy doing those things. Marc: That's great. John: But we are definitely not running. Marc: You're not running. Are you going to golf? John: We're probably not golfing either. Nick: [crosstalk 00:01:47]. Marc: I imagine planning a tourney, a golf tournament, is a bit more challenging than you might expect. You first dive into it. You think, oh, this is... And then you're like, wow, this is a lot more work than I thought. John: There are a lot of moving parts, but we have a really strong team. We have some members that have planned golf tournaments before and they're heading up the logistics. Nick and I are very organized and detail oriented, we're making sure all the tasks are checked off and everyone's doing their work, but we're really excited about that one. Marc: Dotting the I's and crossing the T's. Nick: The local steakhouse that we're teaming up with is really well known. Having them involved, this is the first time that we had paired up with them. It's a pretty cool experience as well. Marc: Very cool. Well, I'll keep asking about it and we'll keep updating things as we get closer, but for now let's play a little financial fact or fiction. I know it's a little tougher sometimes in your guys' industry, because often I've heard that saying that the answer to most financial questions are, it depends, but we'll try to do as best we can here. Like when we were in school, we do true or false of simple ways to learn things. I've got some basic statements here guys, just have a little fun with it. Fact or fiction, give us the best answer you can, based on the way the question is worded and we'll go from there. Fact or fiction, whoever wants to take this first one, your social security can be taxable. John: I'm going to say fact, although sometimes it's not, but it's based off of your income in retirement. They called it, your modified adjusted gross income in this situation, where basically it's half of your social security, your adjusted gross income, plus any non taxable interest like municipal bonds. They add all that up and depending on where that falls will determine how much of your social security is taxable. Example if you're making married filing jointly over 44 000 of that [inaudible 00:03:46] income, up to 85% of your social security is going to be taxable. That's the maximum amount of your social security that's going to be taxable is up to 85%. Marc: Okay. It can be taxable. It doesn't mean it always will be, but it can be. John: Correct. I'll say more often than not, it is going to be taxable because the limits where it's not taxable, it's married filing jointly between zero and 32 000, 0% is taxable at that point. But you'll find the majority of people, they're above that when you're talking two incomes. Marc: Got you. Okay. All right. We'll go with fact on that one, it can be taxable. Quick and easy fact or fiction. Nick, how about you, you want to take this one? Your taxes will likely be lower in retirement. Nick: There is a decent chance that may be the case, the tricky part about that, and we usually have a better idea of that within the last couple of years of retirement, when we can measure your expenses and measure what is being deployed into savings and those sorts of things. I would say that a solid percentage of people do have lower taxes, at least initially in retirement. But one of the things that we've started to see is, especially those that have done a good job of maybe managing expenses, because the market has taken such a big jump over the last, five to 10 years, there's a lot of people that have found themselves with a lot more money in retirement accounts than they expected. And they're creeping into their RMD age, which is now 72, they're going to have income that's going to be coming in via their required minimum distribution that may be much higher than their spending that could really flatten out that difference. going back to what we've said in previous podcasts, there is a decent chance that your taxes will be lower in retirement. However, it's important for us to plan for scenarios that they aren't and give you options in retirement. Marc: Yeah. And to be fair with continuing taxes possibly going to be on the rise with all the spending we're doing, it's one of those statements where again, it's in the wording, likely to be lower. Okay. But there's a good chance of anything happening in that arena. You always want to make sure you're checking them as relates to your specific scenario and plan efficiently. Try to plan to be as efficient as possible so that you can be tax efficient, hopefully in the future, just in case they do go up, because they do raise up the tax brackets. All right. How about fact or fiction guys? Term life insurance is better than whole life insurance. John: I'm going to have to say it's a, it depends on this one. I can't go fact or fiction on this one because it depends on your situation. Term-life is great for covering an immediate need. Example, having two kids, I've enough life insurance, death benefit to cover my income for the next 20 years, if something were to happen to me. Whole life is nice to have basically a permanent policy. Going into retirement, I have something that's going to last, in essence, depending on the policy and disclosures, whatever and disclaimers it's going to last forever. This one is, it can't be fact or fiction, it really depends on the person's situation. Nick: One of the things I would just throw in there on this is that, life insurance can be a topic that people feel strongly about. Typically though, it breaks down to a cashflow issue where if you have the cashflow to be able to have the right type of permanent whole life insurance, oftentimes it can be a better plan and strategy than otherwise, but it's definitely an in-depth and a topic that's important to go through in detail. Marc: Well, we're having a little fun with these, but like any financial vehicle or product there's pros and cons to everything and what's going to be right for your scenario may be different for someone else. It's all about that complete holistic strategy, if you will. And that's why working with an advisor is a good idea to do so when it comes to your scenario. And of course, if you've got questions or you need some help or whatever the case might be as always check out John and Nick, and have a conversation with them if you need some help, or if you have something that sparks your interest a little bit, go to pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com, and you can drop them a line there while you're on the website. Lot of good tools, tips, and resources. Here's another one guys. Medicare will cover most of your medical needs in retirement, fact or fiction? John: I'll say fact that the right type of Medicare policy will cover most of your medical needs in retirement. Again, disclosure, everyone's situation is different and Medicare only covers certain things. But I'll say from your basic health needs, going to the doctor, prescriptions, if you have the right type of Medicare policy, it will cover quite a bit of that. As far as any disabilities, that's where Medicare does not really kick in for that. A lot of people get confused. Marc: Hospital stays, basic doctor visits, things like that. But it doesn't do dental. I can be interesting. My mom had, with her Medicare, she had some cataract stuff done and it covered portions of it. There's definitely some outliers there, which is why they've got the 47 million supplement programs that go in there. A lot of stuff to talk about for sure and it doesn't do anything with long-term care. John: Correct. It's important just to understand what it covers. Both Nick and I, we know a good amount about it, but we've both gone to some seminars and presentations and make sure we're up to date on the latest. But we typically, when it comes to that point in the planning, we refer this out to a couple of people that specialize in it because there's so many different policies of so many different nuances. And again, it's all about finding the right professional and what fits your needs. Fact, some of the time, fiction some of the time as well. Marc: Yeah, exactly. Well, I guess with these, it's really just a fun way to do it, but ideally when it comes to financial stuff, there's always a depends caveat, if you will. One more here, we'll have this last one, then we'll take an email question to wrap up this week. As you get older, you should gradually shift from stocks to bonds. That's been a thinking for a very long time fact or fiction, or maybe has that changed? Nick: I would say that it obviously depends upon where you're starting from. If you've been a typical investor that has been comfortable with market risk throughout your life and you are starting from a place of maybe having a 70/30 stock to bond or a 60/40 stock bond portfolio that shifting to decrease your risk does make some sense. We've seen plenty of people that haven't really taken enough risk from the perspective of market risk. Not taking enough market risk, can create things like longevity risk and your money lasting for you, those sorts of things. If you're going to make shifts, it's important to be shifting in the right way. Making sure that you're looking at stocks that are on the lower risk side of things is important. But I would say in general, the key is to tie your investments to your overall financial plan. But in general, it will make some sense for many people to reduce some of their stock holding risk as things go forward. With the caveat that when you're getting your access to the fixed side of things, the bond world, you need to do it much more carefully than maybe you had to 10 or 15 years ago. It's a much more convoluted space than it was. And so that's something where there are many people that under-appreciate the risk that you can have in the bond space. Marc: All right. Well, that's going to do it for fact or fiction, and we're going to wrap up this podcast with an email question again, if you'd like to submit your own, stop by the website at pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. Greg's got a question for you. Greg says, "Guys, I'm being offered an early retirement package from the company I worked at. It also includes a severance package and pension buyout. It seems wise to consider this anything to think?" Anything that he should be thinking about, questions to maybe ask? Nick: Yeah. Good question, Greg. Nick and I are seeing quite a bit of this coming up where clients are near retirement, few years away, and all of a sudden it's, hey, I got the severance package and this pension buyout, what should I do? And the first thing we do is really to say, "Hey, let's run the numbers and the plan and see if you can retire with that severance package and what the pension buyout is." And we'll evaluate it and give our recommendations based on, again, the plan. I'll say it's definitely worth comparing your options in that situation. One thing you want to consider is the financial health of the pension itself. Is it fully funded or is it underfunded? Because we have seen some pensions that aren't fully funded and there's some financial risks of that pension. In that scenario, I would say you might want to go ahead and take the money. Nick: And then, reverting back to the plan, what are their current income needs versus liquidity? Just to give you an example of a plan we're doing, client had a couple of pensions and didn't really have much liquidity. When a situation like this came up, we evaluated it based on the income that it was spinning off and what a lump sum could do. But, we looked at it and said, "Hey, this, this could be a nice option to give you some of the liquidity, which you currently don't have", because he had two pensions and social security, but didn't have a lot of liquid assets he could draw on if needed. Another thing to consider is beneficiaries. We've seen a lot of clients where they say, "Something happens to me with this pension, basically the money goes away. I don't feel comfortable with that. I'd prefer the lump sum buyout. At least if something happens to me within the next 10 years or 15 years, someone's going to get something versus in the pension option that I'm given, they're not going to get anything." And again, there's different pension options and we review it all. And then, we've seen some scenarios where the pension guaranteed income was so excellent, we didn't even consider a lump sum withdrawal or any other type of contracts that provide guaranteed income because it was so strong. Marc: Some good questions to ponder there, Greg. Thanks for submitting that in. There's obviously a lot of information that you didn't share with us. If you'd like to have a more in-depth conversation about exactly what they're offering, you definitely reach out to John and Nick. You can call them at 813-286-7776, but that gives you four or five things there to think about. Again, 813-286-7776. You can give them a call and have a conversation with them. Of course, with the podcast, subscribe to the show folks, if you have done so already. That way you can catch up new episodes when they come out, you can also check out past episodes and all that good jazz. You can find it all at pfgprivatewealth.com. It's really the easiest way to get in touch with the guys, If you'd like. Marc: You can drop an email question, you can book some time with them. You can subscribe to the podcast, just a lot of good tools, tips, and resources there at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com and that's going to do it for us this week on the podcast. John, Nick, guys thanks for hanging out with me and good luck with the upcoming events. Nick: All right, thanks Marc. John: Thanks, have a good one. Marc: We appreciate it. We'll see you next time here on retirement planning, redefined with the guys from PFG Private Wealth, serving you here in the Tampa Bay area. We'll talk to you next time on the podcast folks.

We often see people making certain assumptions about retirement that just aren’t correct. Let’s explore some of those on today's show. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Marc: Hey, everybody. Welcome into Retirement Planning Redefined. Thanks for hanging out in the podcast with us as we talk investing finance and retirement with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. On this episode of the podcast, we're going to talk about not making assumptions reasons, why to never assume. We all do it as humans, but when it certainly comes to retirement, there's some ways and pretty easy ways to just not make these assumptions, but yet it does happen. So we're going to talk through that a little bit, got a couple of bullet points we're going to go over, but first let me say, hey to the guys. What's going on John and Nick? How are you doing John?   John: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I don't know if I mentioned it on the past podcast, but we moved to a new house and it's been a couple of months and just settling in. So getting some new furniture, which if anyone's ordered furniture recently, everything's back ordered by about two months. So we finally have some of that trickling in and so it's nice to settle into a new place and then getting ready to enjoy it with the weather turning around here.   Marc: Very nice. Yeah. If you bought or tried to buy a lumber as well, holy moly. Lumbers through the roof if you've gone even to just a Lowe's or something to get some plywood. It's pretty crazy. But Nick, what's going on with you? How are you?   Nick: Just staying busy. No complaints. I have a friend coming down to visit. He was one of the early people to get vaccinated, so he's coming down to visit in another week or two. So that'd be kind of cool we'll do everything outside and all that kind of stuff, but to have some sort of activity and a friend in town will be a good time.   Marc: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, good. Well, I'm glad you guys are doing well. So let's jump in and talk about this week's topic, making assumptions. As I mentioned before, I mean, it's common right? We're humans. We do it in all sorts of areas and ways in life, but when we're talking about retirement, there's a few of these that maybe just don't hold water anymore. So let's start with a classic one here guys. I'll spend less when I retire. I mean, we've heard that for a number of years and I get it, but at the same time, I just think with the cost of everything going up, the way it is, and my dad used to tell me when you get to retirement and he got there, he's like, "Every day is a Saturday," and he's like, "I always spend the most money on a Saturday." And I thought that was a good way of looking at it because you're inclined to just do more, at least you want to anyway. That's the goal of retirement right, is to get out there and do those things you've wanted to. Nick: Yeah. Well, one of the things that we oftentimes talk about with people is really the whole goal of this planning process and the work that we put in over the years that are leading up to retirement is to allow you to not have to spend less, to want to spend the same. Maybe you'll pay a little bit less on certain things here and there. Maybe you got the house paid off, but really from a lifestyle standpoint and your analogy that your father used of every day's a Saturday is correct in a lot of ways. And so a lot of times people, depending upon the conversation, people will focus on needs versus wants, but very rarely do people live a lifestyle of needs only. And so, the beauty of planning is we can try to kind of build some of those scenarios in, but ultimately, and we'll kind of say it to people up front is like, "Don't you want to live the same sort of lifestyle, so why don't we budget and plan for that?"   John: Yeah. And we see a lot of people when they go to retire, a lot of those kind of bucket list of vacations happen, and I'll tell you those aren't cheap. So it's kind of it's... we call them what? The go-go years, where it's time to really start doing things and if you plan correctly, you do want to spend the same amount of money if not more, to really start enjoying your Saturdays every day.   Marc: Yeah. And if you think about the go-go years John, in that respect, you're doing more in the first couple of years of retirement, but you're starting... Yeah, maybe there's some trade offs like I think there's some statistics, like people go out to eat more in their thirties, forties and fifties. As you get over 60, you start going out a little bit less and less. And we'll just take COVID out of the equation for right now. And even with that's the case, you're going to start trading that off for other things. So yeah, you might spend less than this category, but you may spend more in another category. So just the general assumption that you're going to spend less in retirement is typically a false one, especially if you are having some dreams and some lofty things that you want to do again, COVID aside or not right? So that's one classic one to ponder. Another one that goes right along with it guys is the taxes will be lower. Typically, we think our tax rate will be lower in retirement and maybe that used to be the norm when the tax rates, there was a wider range in them. I mean, I'm talking 20 or 30 years ago, but I don't know that that's the case anymore. What do you guys see?   John: When we do planning for the most part, I'll say we see taxes drop a little bit, but Nick and I really try to kind of build a worst case scenario and we're historically in very low tax brackets. So when we're doing planning for our clients, we make sure that even if the plan showing lower taxes, that we adjust their plan to taxes do go up. At some point they're going to go up, I'm assuming with all the spending the government is doing, that they can adjust to that. So although we have seen that, we definitely do not make plans based on that and when we run some numbers, we kind of stress test to say, "Hey, what if taxes do go up into retirement?" So one of the big things that we'll see when people retire is they do have a little bit more deduction. You have that deduction of, once you hit 65 on your taxes, and then also you're not paying social security tax anymore because there's no more earned income. So that tax does get lowered, but from an income tax standpoint, maybe a little bit, but again, not enough to really say, "Hey, I'm going to be spending a lot more because my taxes are lower."   Nick: It can also very much be a production of how you have saved over the years. So for example, if maybe you're eligible for a pension and you have a pension which is going to be fully taxable when you receive it plus the money that you saved has gone all to pre-tax accounts, to pre-tax 401k, pre-tax IRA and you don't happen to have any Roth accounts or any accounts that are what we would refer to as non-retirement non-qualified accounts, that can have a significant impact as well. So it's not as simple as a total income number. It can also be, "Where is the income coming from and how does that impact the overall situation?" And just like John said, the probability of taxes going up in the future is fairly high with the debt levels and those sorts of things.   Marc: Yeah. I mean, just some quick numbers. Right now, I think it's around 75% or so the federal budget is allocated towards entitlement programs. I mean, think about that. So what's it going to be 10 years from now? And that's not factoring into your guys' point, some of the stimulus stuff. So it's going to continue to be a situation where I think everybody's in the same agreement that it's going up. It's just a matter of when, when they're going to do it or whatever the case is. So being prepared and not just making that assumption again, that you'll be in a lower tax bracket. That's the goal if you're working with a good team and working with guys like yourself to get to plan, to keep your taxes as low as possible. That's always the goal, but just don't assume it's going to happen.   Marc: Let's talk about the college conversation, guys. We'll try to stay away from those, "Should it be paid off or should it not be by the government," well, if we can. But just in general, the thought from a retiree standpoint, especially for people who've had kids later in life and they really want to help them with retirement... or excuse me with college, that's great. We all love our kids. We all want to do things, but at some point, do you guys see a situation where people can put themselves behind the eight ball for their own retirement and now they're becoming a burden on their kids later in life because you've sacrificed your own retirement to help them get started? That's a slippery slope.   John: Yeah. So actually oddly enough, I just had this conversation today where a client had some money that was freed up and their kids are young and they're in daycare. So there's some extra money now that they're going to school. I mean, the question is, "Hey, what should I do with that?" And part of the conversation was, let's start looking at your overall retirement plan to see what that looks like before you start socking away all this money into a 529 plan or any other college savings plan because there are loans for college. There's no loans for retirement.   Marc: Right. Maybe a reverse mortgage will be about the only thing way you could finance a retirement. Maybe right? But that's totally another conversation for another day.   John: Yeah. And when the kids get to that point of school, depending on how you structure your retirement assets, there are some ways that you can access those retirement funds to help them pay for school. And kind of the way I view it is that you can tap those funds to pay for school and still kind of maintain your retirement. So it's always something you really want to take a look at and just plan for and be prepared.   Nick: Yeah. I would say that our default is, typically save first for yourself and for your retirement and then we can build in strategies and structures for saving for college expenses for the kids. We really don't know what that space is going to look like 10 or 15 or even 20 years from now, whether college will be fully required for everything or what sort of programs will be put in place, even the ways that students will be able to qualify for things like financial aid and those sorts of things. And so, anytime a plan is too heavily focused in one area, we oftentimes see mistakes. And so it's difficult with this conversation because it can be a very personal conversation. Oftentimes, it's based upon the client's experience when they were children, whether or not they had to go through it themselves.   Nick: And that can go both ways like, "Hey, I don't want this burden to be on them," or, "Hey, I learned a lot by having to do that and I'd like my kids to do the same sort of thing." And so just like so many other topics, we really try to talk about the financial side of things and help them understand the impacts in that space and then get their feedback on their personal feelings about it, and then try to find a way to kind of mold those two together to make it make sense from both a preferential and personal standpoint as well as a financial standpoint.   Marc: That's a great point. Yeah, exactly. Because it can be, and everybody [inaudible 00:10:29]. it's almost like the same conversation around legacy planning right? Some folks say, "I don't want to leave anything to the kids because they're doing just fine," and others say, "I want to leave as much as I can." So yeah, it becomes a very personal conversation, but just be careful because what we've seen over the last couple of years is people sacrificing a little too much. And then again, like I said, it comes back around and you wind up being a burden. You're in your seventies and you need help with retirement and now you're trying to lean on your adult kids who are maybe just starting their own families. And so it's just a slippery slope. So just be careful.   Nick: Yeah. And one other thing on that. You pointed out the legacy planning and that's kind of a good point because, and we consider that factoring in the overall throughout the whole planning. But a lot of times what we will see are, "Hey, we paid for school so we are going to spend our money in retirement and use our money in retirement," or the vice versa where it's like, "Hey, we didn't help out with school so we'd like to make sure that we leave some money." So again, it's a multi-tiered sort of conversation. And ultimately, we always try to focus on control. Be in control of your own money, be able to have as much of an impact as you can on your own personal decisions. And so, sometimes knowing like, "Well, hey. If I can help them out down the line afterwards, that may be a way to "make up" for not having put away as much money for their education or whatever."   Marc: That's a good way of looking at it. And again, it's all very personal things. So just, again, the topic this week on the podcast, it's just not making the assumption that you have to help your kids through college before you worry about retirement savings because they can get you into a bit of a pickle. One more here, guys, on the main topic this week, and that's the classic "I'll never be able to retire" kind of assumption. And I think what we find, and you guys tell me what you see in your practice is many people just assume that and they never take the time to sit down and go through a planning process and find out if they're right or wrong because they are just terrified and they're assuming they're going to be wrong. And more times than not, they're actually not. People find that they're in better shape than they thought they were when they go through the process typically.   John: Yeah, I would agree with that. Nick and I do the classes and a lot of those people are kind of in that position, it's time to start looking at it. And we've had a lot of scenarios where people feel that they haven't done enough. And when we do the plan, it's, "Hey, you're on track and it looks really good," and it produces a nice kind of sense of relief for some of those individuals. I definitely will say, never assume that and it's better to take a look at it sooner rather than later because if it's vice versa where you need to start saving more, we do find that people in their fifties, kids have moved out. They're kind of off the payroll. And now if there's a time to really catch up, it's going to be in your fifties to sixties. So it's really important to build that plan, see where you're at and if you're on track, great. Let's enhance that to give you more flexibility down the road and if you're not on track, now is the time to really... it's better to start planning sooner rather than later versus, "Hey, once you hit 60 and it's like, your working years-"   Marc: It's going to be harder right?   Nick: Yeah. And just like so many things in life, we've had conversations with people like this. And the reality is, is that we can't change the past. So we really try to emphasize the present and the future and decisions that can be made moving forward. It can be difficult for us as advisors sometimes because ultimately, we tell clients, "We can't care more about your money in your retirement than you do." So the number one factor in this whole thing is that it has to be an important thing for you and you have to be motivated to make changes if you are behind the ball and we'll absolutely help you get there, but I would say one of the biggest mistakes that we'll see is that people get paralyzed by the concern about mistakes that they've made in the past, and then all of a sudden, it's five years, 10 years later and they've just really doubled up on the mistakes. And so the sooner you can make changes the better and less focused on the past and more focused on the present and the future.   Marc: Absolutely. So some good points to ponder there as we're talking about not making assumptions for retirement. And of course, if you've got questions or some concerns, you need a little bit of help, you want to get a second opinion on a plan you might have, or even the first opinion if you've never taken the time to do so, reach out to the team, go to the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. You can click on the podcast link right there at the top of the page. There's a blog. And there's a contact section where you can send us an email to the show if you'd like to do that as well. You can find all those goodies at pfgprivatewealth.com. And like I said, if you want to send an email question, feel free to do so. And we've got one this week, we're going to toss out to you guys. Bo sent one and he said, "Fellas, I need about $5,000 to live on each month in retirement and my social security and pension is looking about to be $5,300 a month. You think that means I can leave my 401k behind to my son? What do you guys think?" Nick: So there's a couple of things with this question. Ultimately backing up a little bit, we're always concerned when people provide flat numbers like this. I think I've been doing this since '07 and John you've probably been doing it at least as long, I think an an extra year. I don't know if I've ever seen anybody come in with $5,000 a month flat on expenses. It's an awfully convenient number. And so first thing-   Marc: Well, he does say, "I need a [inaudible 00:15:58]," I guess, so we'll give him the benefit, but yeah.   Nick: The first thing that we like to do is kind of peel back those numbers and make sure one of the things that we've learned kind of throughout these years of doing this are that sometimes when people post questions like this, some people think pre-tax and some people think net of taxes. And so first backing up to see in reality, depending upon how they're calculating the numbers, that $5,000 expense number might actually be closer to 6,000 or 6,500. And then the social security and the pension numbers may be net versus gross. So the first things that we'll make sure that they understand will be, from a cost of living standpoint and projecting out the numbers for the social security, are they using a cost of living and which number are they using it? And then for the pension also, the same thing. I would say at this point, depending upon where the pension's coming from, if it's coming from a private company, typically we don't see cost of living's built in. If it's coming from some sort of like state or a municipality employee, then there will be some cost of living's built into that.   Nick: So making sure that they calculate inflation on both income and expenses is going to be a huge deal. So as far as being able to leave the money, the first conversation that we're going to have with them about specifically, "Hey, am I going to be able to leave my 401k money behind?" We'll be making sure that they understand how required minimum distributions work and what that looks like. So as an example, making sure that they understand that starting at age 72, they're going to have to start pulling money out of their account so that the government can tax that from an income standpoint. And that doesn't mean that the client has to spend that money. It means that they will pull it out so that they can pay the taxes and then either they can save it or they could spend it.   Nick: So just like so many other things, it's a pretty nuanced... it's a question that on the surface seems super simple like, "Hey, I did the math. My income is 5,300. My expenses are 5k. I look great. Let's just plug along. And my goal is going to be to leave my money behind for my son." So kind of diving into making sure that they first understand how those factors are going to work from a planning standpoint with things like inflation, how they understand that the required minimum distributions are going to work, pulling that money out and then really focusing and drilling down on if it's very important for them to leave money, for Bo to leave money to his son.   Nick: Let's figure out what might be... is that the best way to leave the money or are there other things that we could do to leave that money? Like for example, does it make sense for him to start doing conversions to convert his traditional money to a Roth account, which can be a much more effective tool to be able to leave? What sort of income bracket is his son in? If he leaves pre-tax money, is that going to be a tax bomb for him? Those sorts of things. So on the surface, it looks like a very kind of basic question, but in reality, we're going to have to peel back and look at kind of the other factors and then really strategize to figure out ultimately what's the goal and can we find more efficient ways to accomplish that goal?   Marc: Yeah, exactly. I think the first thing that I thought when I read that was 5,000 now, what is it going to be in 10 years? So with inflation, I mean that 5,000 might be 10, so who knows? So some good thoughts there for Bo to consider. Thanks so much for the question. We certainly appreciate it. Nick, thanks for handling that one. And that's going to do it this week here on the podcast. Again, if you've got questions or concerns before you take any action, you should always check with a qualified professional like John and Nick at PFG Private Wealth. Give them a call at (813) 286-7776 or stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, Retirement Planning Redefined. You can find all that information at the website. Of course, you can also just search it out on Apple, Google, Spotify, or whatever platform you like to use. And for John, Nick, I'm your host Mark. We'll see you next time here on the show. And this has been Retirement Planning Redefined.

We were lucky enough to have Nick Santonastasso come to my house and wrestle with me, and give my kids a private workshop. Listen in behind the scenes and hopefully it will change your life like it did ours. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And Oh boy, do I have a treat for you guys today. So the guest for the podcast is my new friend and wrestling partner, Nick Santonastasso. And he's someone who I had a chance to... I've seen him online a whole bunch of times and a whole bunch of different places. And then he reached out to me out of the blue and said, "Hey, Russell, come out and interview for my podcast." And I knew that he wrestled, and I was like, "Dude. Yes." And I was excited. I'm like, "Yeah, I love your message. Love who you are. I love what you stand for." And he's like, "If you want I'll actually fly out to Boise." And at the time I was just sitting in my wrestling room, I knew he's a wrestler. And I was like, "Dude, how about this? You come out and then you can interview me for your podcast. And then I'll actually wrestle you in my wrestling room?" And he was like, "Yeah, that'd be amazing." And so we planned this whole thing out. And the week before Thanksgiving, he flew out here to Boise and I did an interview for his podcast. And then we came back to my wrestling room and wrestled. And obviously, my entire family wanted to meet him and to see him. If you haven't met Nick before, he has no legs and he only has one arm, and his story is amazing. And the fact that he was a wrestler is even cooler. And so me and him wrestled. And after we got into wrestling, we had so much fun, then everyone, my kids and my wife and my parents were there and everybody had a million questions for him. So I said, "How about this? Let's do a little mini seminar with my kids to be willing to." And he's like, "Sure." And so we pulled up the mats and the crash pads and the box jumps, and we had everybody sit on them, and then Nick had a chance to tell us some of the story and talk to the kids at a really cool level. And it was really fun. One of my kids was really nervous asking questions. He thought I was going to get mad at him. Anyway, it's fun. You have a chance to hear from kids, you ask him questions and hear Nick's story. And I hope that you love it. It was one of the highlights of my year, super special opportunity for me and for my family to have a chance to meet someone like Nick and to hear his story. And it's just a huge blessing that I think he gave me to be able to have him talk to my kids. And so I wanted to share this with you guys, because a lot of you guys have kids, a lot of you guys are kids and a lot of you guys have different situations. And I hope that some of the things that Nick shared with me and my family, it'll mean a lot to you as well. So with that said, we're going to cue the theme song. And we come back, you have a chance to sit in, into a private discussion with my kids and Nick as they talk about life, motivation about doing your best, a whole bunch of other cool things. So with that said, we'll cue the theme song. We'll be right back. Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. I'm here in our wrestling room right now with a bunch of my kids and cousins and friends, because we've got a special guest in town, in Boise today who I just got done wrestling, which was so much fun. And this is Nick. We had a great time. And thanks for coming and hanging out with us here in Boise and talking to all the kids. Nick Santonastasso: You got it. Russell: So kind of the game plan we want to do is I wanted my kids to get to know him and hear some of his stories and stuff for so many reasons. And so I'd love to begin with, if you want to tell them little about your story, about your life, growing up wrestling, and just some of the background. And then I got some cool questions about other stuff I want to talk about too. Nick: Yeah. Great. It's pretty open-ended when he said share your story. I got a long story. And so I'll give you a little context of why I was born like this. And yes, I was born like this. I didn't wrestle no sharks or anything. I see we got some laughs. I'm 24 years old. In 1996, my mom went in for a late ultrasound, and a ultrasound is where they see the baby inside the stomach. And they sat my parents down and said, "Something's really wrong." And they said, "From the looks of it, it doesn't look like your baby's limbs are being developed. It looks like he's missing his legs, his arm, and his face might be messed up." Clearly, my face isn't messed up. Right? And so what they did was they classified me with what they call Hanhart syndrome. And Hanhart syndrome is a super rare genetic disorder that either leaves the babies with undeveloped limbs or undeveloped organs. And so that means the babies are either born with a heart that can't beat on its own or their stomach can't process food on its own, and they later on pass away. And so they told my parents that their baby boy has about a 30% chance to live. And so I was born and the test of my organs came back 100% healthy, and the only thing that was affected were my limbs. And so I was born in this unicorn body of no legs and one arm. And all my organs are 100% healthy. Always the lesson behind that is the doctor said it had about a 30% chance to live. And my parents made a massive promise. And that promise was that they were going to focus on the 30% chance of me living rather than the what? Dallin: You dying. Nick: Exactly. You dying. Exactly. The aggressive way to say it. And so the 70% of me dying. Exactly. And so in life, that's the... Ooh, careful. I know you beat me up earlier, but stay on here. And so the little lesson is, would you agree that in your life, there's always something bad that you can focus on? Would you agree? And would you agree that there's always something good that you can focus on? And so the majority of humans, and you can agree, the majority of adults always focus on the negative stuff. And so if we can train our brain to always focus on the good things, then we always win. And so that was how I was born. And then getting into wrestling, when I got into middle school and high school, which some of you, when you get into middle school and high school, at that time, a big portion of life was boyfriends and girlfriends. Awkward phase, getting into middle school and high school. I see people getting awkward. It's awkward. And so I felt like I stood out. Well, I clearly stood out because I have no legs, one arm. And there was a specific moment where I was on the bus and there was a girl to the left of me and she was making fun of everyone on the bus. And I'm like, "Oh my God, she's going to have a field day with me." And she looked over to me and she said, "Nick, I don't even have to start with you. You're already too messed up anyway. Look at you." And I'm only a 14, 15 year old kid. And the first question that pops in my head is, why me? Have you ever asked yourself, like, "Why is this happening to me?" And so I asked myself, "Why is this happening to me?" And from that moment of one girl making fun of me, I thought things like, "Oh, I'm disgusting. I'll never have a girlfriend. I'll never go to a school dance. I'll never be able to walk my girlfriend to her locker because I can't walk. And she want to hold my finger. Is that weird?" I just started thinking about all these negative things. And so for the majority of my life, I felt my body, my no legs and one arm was the most disgusting thing, the biggest curse that life could give me. And then I was able to reframe it. And what reframing is, is say you have a bad event happen in your life. And I had the same thing happen to me. You could see all the good and I could see all the bad, it's what we focus on, yes? And so I realized a couple of years later that if a girl doesn't want to be my girlfriend, or if someone doesn't want to do business with me because of my no legs, one arm, well, wait, maybe this disability or whatever you want to call it is actually working for me and it's filtering out the type of human and womens that I don't want in my life anyway. And so when you show up authentic, when you show up transparent and you show up yourself, would you agree that the universe makes it very easy to see who's your friend and who's not your friend? I mean, have you ever had a situation in school where you thought someone was your friend and they no longer was? Has that ever happened? And that means that we don't want those people in our life. And then you also have people in your life that love on you. Anyone have good friends here? I hope. Raise your hands. That's because you show up yourself. And so I have a quote on my arm. It says, "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." And that's not me making fun of people with legs and arms, but what I'm saying is the best thing you could be, the most authentic thing you could be as who? Who do you think? Were you listening? You. You. You show up, Norah, and you're the greatest Norah that the world has ever seen, because you are you. And so we're going to grow up and people are going to like us and people are not going to like us. Who agrees with that? But as long as you show up yourself, the universe makes it really easy to find out who loves you for you and who doesn't love you for you. Russell: That's awesome. Nick: Facilitator, where else would you like to go? Russell: So now we're in high school, struggling with high school stuff. And you told me your older brother's a wrestler, and you wanted to do that. I'd love to hear the story about wrestling, why you got involved in that. Nick: Yeah. So my older brother was a wrestler. He's a really good wrestler and I thought wrestlers were the coolest thing on earth. And so when I got into high school, I was looking for a way to build more confidence in myself, because I didn't have much confidence. And so I wanted to do something that was going to make me feel really good about myself. And so I wanted to become an athlete after my whole life people said, "Nick, you can't be an athlete. You can't do sports. You have no legs, one arm." And so, one day I came into school, my friend said, "Nick, you should try wrestling." And I said, "I can't my arm." And this, we call it the potato. It looks like a potato now. But it used to look like a chicken wing. You believe it? Do you believe it? And the reason why it looked like a chicken wing is because this arm was five inches longer than it is now. And my bone was going faster than my skin. So it was super sensitive. And the bottom line is if I would have hit my arm hard enough, my bone would've came through my skin. Yeah, crazy. Right. And so I couldn't do any physical activities with it. And so one day I came home and I said, "Mom and dad, I want to become a wrestler." And they said, "You can't, your arm." And then I looked at my parents and I said, "Can we cut my arm off?" And they said, "What?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm not joking. Can we cut my arm off? Can we do something about it?" And they said, "Is this something that you really want to do?" And I said, "It's going to make me an athlete. I'll be able to wrestle. I'll have more confidence in myself." And so my sophomore year of high school, my parents scheduled the appointment for the doctors to amputate my arm. And so I have these scars here, but what they did was, I didn't know they could do this, but they lasered five inches of my bone off. And then they pulled extra skin. Now you're taller than me. Then they pulled extra skin from my shoulder over my bone so I could beat people up with it. I remember right before I went into surgery, I said, "Doc, if I can't beat someone over the head with my arm when I come back, we're going to have a problem. I need to be able to do some physical activities with this thing." And so I went throughout the surgery and I go back to school. I had 17 stitches in my arm and I was the happiest kid that just cut his arm off. I go back to school, smiling. And people are like, "Nick, what'd you do?" I'm like, "I cut my arm off. It's great." And they said, "Why?" And I said, "I'm going to become a wrestler." And people made fun of me. They said, "Nick, how are you going to become a wrestler? You have no legs and one arm." And so I went out and I became a wrestler. My junior year, I got my butt kicked. And then my senior year, I was able to come out as the 106 pound varsity wrestler from my high school. And would you agree that that would probably instilled confidence in me and I'd probably feel a little bit better about myself, I'm an athlete, maybe the girls would like me? That's my thought process as a 16, 17 year old kid. And then the app, Vine came out. Y'all know what Vine is? You remember Vine? You remember Vine? Vine was an app that you could post six second videos. Raise your hand if you know what Vine is. Adults, raise your hand if you know what Vine is. All right, I'm going to educate you. So Vine was an app in 2014. I was a senior in high school where you can post six second videos. You had to be as creative as you can in six seconds. And so I wanted to create a way where I could make people laugh, but inspire them at the same time. And I wanted to do something that has never been done before. And so I was with my friends like this, and we're thinking of an idea. And I said, "I got an idea." I said, "How many legless guys do you see crawling around Walmart, pretending to be a zombie?" Bowen: Propped up just like that and siting in a elevator or something? Nick: That was me. And so I said, "That's a great idea." And so I'm a senior in high school and I put fake blood on my face and I put fake blood on my clothes, and I set out to my local Walmart in New Jersey, which Nick's not allowed in that Walmart anymore. And I go down the aisles and I'm looking for my victim, and I see this guy, he's heavily invested in the paper towels. And I looked at my camera guy, I go, "Record this. I'm going to try to scare him." And so I came around the corner as fast as I could like this. And he goes, "Oh," he threw the paper towels at my face. And I looked at my camera guy. I go, "Was that six seconds?" He goes, "Yes." I'm like, "Yes, this is just what the internet needs." And so I apologized to the guy. I told him I wasn't a zombie and that I'm really alive. And, "Thanks for letting me prank you." And I told my friends, "Pick me up and carry me out of Walmart before we get kicked out." And so I posted the video and I wanted 500 kids to see the video. I wanted to get 500 views. I posted the video and I went to sleep. And when I woke up for school, the next morning, the video had over 80,000 likes and over 80,000 reposts. I go back to school, my friends were like, "Dude, you're the zombie king." And I'm like, "What did I get myself into?" And so in under a year, my senior year I gained a million followers on Vine and the owners of The Walking Dead, the TV show hired me to fly out to Tokyo, Japan, to scare the main actor of The Walking Dead as a zombie. And so, the lesson in this, don't try to crawl around Walmart. It probably won't work for you, but would you agree that we all have unique gifts, unique ways, unique ways to make people laugh, inspire them? For me it was crawling around Walmart at the time, but we all have unique gifts. As you said, God gives us unique gifts and we have to use those. And so I use my unique body to scare people and make them laugh at the same time, which led me into going out on the internet and gaining a bunch of followers. And then I realized at one point that when I have kids and grandkids, that I want them to know me for much more than crawling around a Walmart. So I did what every kid with no legs and one arm kid would do, is I tried out for bodybuilding, said, no one ever. A lot of the times in bodybuilding, they say you have to focus on your legs, but most bodybuilders skip leg day anyway. And so I fit right in. Where do you want to go from here? But that's my zombie prank story. And so some of you may have seen my zombie pranks. You've seen them? Ryker: I've seen the one where you crawl in Walmart. Nick: Yeah. So that was high school Nick. I've evolved. I've come a long way from scaring people in Walmart. Russell: That's cool. So you got into bodybuilding and then I just wonder, because one of things I think a lot of us people don't do is we dabble in things. Like, "Oh, we'll try this. I'm going to try this and try this." But when you decided, "I'm going to be a bodybuilder," it wasn't just dabbling, right? You shifted your environment, shifted everything. You want to talk about the process there and what you did to be successful? Nick: Yeah. What humans have, we all have it is shiny objects into syndrome, kind of like Norah. You like shiny objects, right? Stars and bells and whistles and all humans like that. And so we try to do one thing and we're like, "Oh, maybe I want to try this over here." And so when I wanted to become a bodybuilder, I was living in New Jersey and it's very cold in New Jersey most of the time. And so I moved to Florida because it's... Have you ever been to Florida, anyone? We got to get you to Florida. I know Boise is great, but I mean, Florida is great too. And so I moved to Florida and I wanted to become a bodybuilder. And the first thing I did was found a really big muscle dude. And I said, "Will you teach me how to body build? You look like you know what you're doing." And that's what we do in business, is if we want to do something, we find out someone who's successful and we model them. And the reason being is because we don't have to reinvent the wheel, we don't have to recreate something. We just find someone who's successful and we learn from them. And so I attempted to become a bodybuilder. And when I moved to Florida, I told everyone, over a million people that followed me that before 2017 was over, I was going to step or hop on the competitive bodybuilding stage before the year was over. And so I did a 12 week preparation and I dedicated 12 weeks of my life to training and health and fitness. And I was 10 weeks into my prep, and I went to Vegas for an expo. And one of the days I went to the gym. Do you guys know The Rock? Everyone: Yeah. Nick: So The Rock was in the gym when I was at the gym and I've been blowing him up with bodybuilding videos for years. And so he already knew who I was. And so I go in the gym and low behold, there's Dwayne, The Rock Johnson. And he's surrounded by four security guards. And he's working out. I'm like, "Oh my God, it's The Rock." And I told my friends, I said, "Let's not bother this man." I stick out like a sore thumb. If he sees me, he's going to know who Nick is. And so after about 45 minutes of lifting, his security guard comes over and taps me on my shoulder and says, "You're Nick, right?" I said, "Not many people look like this. I'm Nick." And he goes, "Can Dwayne meet you?" I was like, "Dude, bring him on. I've been waiting all this time." And so they bring me over into the corner and they bring The Rock over and The Rock gets on my level or tries his best to get on my level. And he goes, "Dude, I'm such a big fan. Can I have a picture with you?" And on the outside, I'm like, "Sure, bro." But on the inside and I'm like, "Oh my God, it's Dwayne The Rock Johnson." Fangirling. And so we took a picture and I blurted out all my goals to him. I said, "I'm going to be the first Calvin Klein model with no legs. I'm going to write a book. I'm going to speak all over the world." And he said, "Nick, you're right, because people like you and I, they put us in any industry and we adapt and overcome." And all of us, would you agree with COVID and during this weird time, we've all adapted? We do school differently. We hang out with friends differently. Would you agree, we all have adapted? And so the more that we exercise the muscle of doing things differently, the more successful we'll be when we're adults. And so after that, I went back to Florida and I competed in bodybuilding against full-bodied guys. And I took third. I beat full body guys in bodybuilding, but I was telling Russell that I competed in the category where they don't judge your legs. That was important, because I don't got legs, I don't want them to judge my legs. And so I competed and I took third and I was the first man with no legs, one arm to jump on a bodybuilding stage. And the quote that I use is, "Over the 24 years of my life, I realized it's not the physical body that holds us back. But the biggest disability you can have," what do you think it is? "Your mindset." Great job. You guys rock. Russell: Awesome. The next thing we'll talk to you about is I know in your company you have a program that goes over a year long, Victorious, right? Nick: Yep. Russell: And each month covers a different letter. So I'd love just today and then probably out of time after that, but talking about the V and what that is in victorious. Victorious, right? Nick: Yeah. Junior Victorious. Russell: Yeah. And just talk about that for these guys because I think that's the first step for a lot of these guys when they're planning goals in sports or school, or any of their things they're trying to become. Nick: Yeah. So Junior Victorious, I created it because people like me and Russell, if we have all the knowledge and we don't give it to kids, then what's the use of it? Because we're not going to be around forever. That's just reality. And so we have to teach young people like you, so you can come, go and take over the world when you grow up. And so Victorious, basically the first month is V which stands for vision. And what vision is, is getting really clear on what you want in life. I think you can agree that the majority of humans don't really know what they want in life. They go to work or they go to school and don't really know why. Their first answer is, "I have to," but there's a deeper reason why you go to school. You probably want to be something, you want to do something with your life. And so V is getting clear. Say, you're an athlete. It's like, how many wins do you want to have? How many hours a day do you want to drill? What grades do you want to get? Does anyone know what they want to be when they're older? Curious. No idea. You got something, in the pink? Dallin: I would say it, but I don't think my dad would like it though. Nick: Got it. Maybe we'll skip over that one. But a vision. Are you okay? So vision basically is just getting very clear on what you want. And the reason why... Do you like cars? Dallin: Yeah. Nick: What kind of cars do you like? What kind of car do you want? You don't know? Dallin: Just one that goes fast. Nick: Yeah, exactly. So if he says, "I want a car and the one that goes fast," he's not going to get it because he doesn't know what car he wants. so the more clear that he can get on what car he wants, who agrees that he'll get the car faster because he knows exactly what he wants? That's a perfect example of all human beings. They want things, but they don't really know what they want. Right? Dallin: Yeah. Nick: And so next time I come back to Boise, I want you to have a specific car that you want so we can go get that car. Is that cool? I'm not buying it. Russ will buy it. But so getting very clear on what you want. And so it's like, who do you want to be? What kind of job do you want to work? What kind of college do you want to go to? What kind of school do you want to be? And the more clear that you can get on things, the faster that you'll get them. That's why, for example, if you wanted a specific car, adults help me out here because kids are a little bit difficult. Have you ever wanted a specific car and you were driving down the road and it was the only car you saw? I don't wear dresses, but women, have you ever wanted a specific dress and you finally got that dress and then you saw a bunch of other women that had the same dress? It's because your brain will go to what you want. That's why people who are depressed or people who are sad, they'll always be sad because they're always focused on the bad in their life. They're not focused on the good. And so our brain is extremely powerful because say you and I were very heavily invested in real estate, and they were whispering a conversation about real estate, we would hear it because our brain would pick up on it because that's where our focus is. That's why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The poor always focus on all the bad in their life, and the rich are focused on the opportunities. And so your brain is a computer. What you focus on, you will get more of. And so if you're always focused on, why me, or why is this happening to me? Or why does my life suck? Your brain will always come up with answers of why your life sucks. Who sees that? But if you ask yourself the question of, why am I amazing? Why did I get beat by Norah during the wrestling match? Or why is my life amazing? Your brain will always find the answer. And that's the thing. Our brain is a problem solving computer. And so it always looks for problems to solve. And you know this, if you're sitting around in your house and you don't have a problem, your brain will think of a problem and you'll try to solve it just because that's the way the brain works. And so I'll give you an easy example. If I woke up every single day, a man with no legs, one arm, and I focused on the fact that I'll never become a professional soccer player, will I be happy or sad? Quick. Everyone: Sad. Nick: Sad, right? I'm never become a professional soccer player. That's reality. But if I focus on what are my unique strengths, how can I make people laugh? How can I inspire them? What does my life look like then? It's better, right? That's where my focus is. Like Tony says where focus goes... Russell: Energy flows. Nick: Energy flows. They're a tough crowd. Russell: Okay. Next one. What questions do you guys have for Nick? Ryker? Ryker: How do you drive a car? Nick: That's a great question. So I drive a car, regular wheel. He's probably laughing because he doesn't think I could drive a car. So he just got proved wrong real quick. That's like teenage years, they try to test people. And so I drive a car with a regular wheel. That's why he's getting embarrassed. That's why you drive a car with a regular wheel. And then I have a little lever and I push the lever for brake and I push the level over for gas. And actually I have videos of me drifting my race car around the parking lot. Great question. Russell: There's another question here. Nick: You got one? Dallin: No. Nick: Okay. I'm just making sure. Aiden? Aiden: What's your favorite food? Nick: Great question. You want to guess? Aiden: I don't know. Nick: I like spaghetti. I'm Italian. My parents gave me a lot of spaghetti as a kid. You like spaghetti? What to go eat spaghetti after this? We can ditch this thing, get some spaghetti. That was a great question. Russell: Any other questions you guys have? We're super lucky to have him here. Bradley: I've got a question. How do you battle the fear of when you're trying to start something new or try something? How do you overcome the fear of trying something new? Nick: That's a great question. I'll give you a little story to help paint the picture. So they'd done a study on skydivers. And basically, they hooked the heart monitor up to skydivers. And so when they fly them up in the plane, their heart is going really fast. They're getting super nervous. "Oh my God." And then the moment that they jump out of the plane, their heart goes back to the normal speed. And so how do we eliminate fear? We take action. And so a lot of the times Russell and I are probably scared to do new things. Well, you're not scared to launch new funnels. You're a master at it. But launching new things, we're very scared. But I'd much rather attempt at my dreams and my goals and be on the sideline, hoping, wishing and regretting. Because at the end of the day, we only have one life for all we know. And there's so many people that are sitting on the sideline of life, making fun of people, bashing them. "You can't do this, you can't do that." But I'd much rather be on the mat rather than on the sideline. And also, realizing that failure is just feedback. A lot of the times we get programmed as kids that failure is bad. "I don't want to fail," but actually failure's our greatest lesson, our teaching. And so I failed a lot at life. Everything was hard for me, getting my clothes on, feeding myself, you name it, it was hard. And that's why I've been so successful is because I'm not afraid of failure. And so if we learn early on that failure is amazing and failure is our best friend, we'll have a better life. And so a little quote for you to remember, if you want to remember it, is, "If failure is a foe, you will never grow. If failure is a friend, you'll learn to the end." Super easy. I had to make it super dumb proof for adults as well. Do you want to ask a question? Dallin: Yeah. It's like, I don't know. It's just like talking about dropping out. Russell: Do you want me to ask it for you? Dallin: Yeah. Russell: So Dallin wants to be successful in life, but he focuses on he wants to drop out of high school. All he ever talks about is, "I want to drop out. I want to drop out." That's his vision and his goal, which is interesting, because I think he's got the right mindset. He wants to be successful, but he focuses on that all the time. So the question he wants to ask you is about him dropping out of school. Nick: Now you can ask it. Dallin: Oh. How do I say it? Nick: How do you drop out? Dallin: Yeah. Or, I don't know. Should I do it? Nick: Let me ask you a question. Do you individually pay for your school? Dallin: Nope. Nick: So why not get the knowledge if it's free? Dallin: I didn't think of it like that. Nick: Because when you're an adult, you're going to have to pay for knowledge. So if you're getting it for free why not take an advantage? Dallin: Because it's boring. Not boring, because I'm positive. Nick: Great takeaway. But would you agree if something's free, you might as well leverage it? Dallin: Yeah. Nick: So if you're a teenager and you're stuck in school, why not learn as much as you can because it's free and you're not paying for it? You probably don't take it serious enough because you don't pay for it. So maybe you need a little bit more skin in the game. Dallin: Maybe. I don't know. Nick: So I'd say get the knowledge while it's there. Dallin: All right. Nick: Who's the O.G? He says broke and stupid. Who's that? Zig Ziglar. Is it Zig or Jim Rohn? Russell: I think it's Jim. Nick: One of them. "The worst thing you could be is broke and stupid." And on top of that broke, stupid and ugly. You can't fix ugly. You might as well get the knowledge while it's there. I'm not calling you ugly, but I'm saying is you don't want to be broke or stupid. So get the knowledge while it's there. You're not paying for it. It's free knowledge. You'd be stupid not to take the knowledge. Dude, once you get out of high school, do you want. If you can't make it through high school, you ain't going to make it through business. Good luck. Good luck. High school is easy. Real world's way harder than high school. If you want to quit and tap out in high school, good luck, brother. Dallin: Oh boy. Nick: Let's keep that in there. That's a great lesson. That's a great lesson. That's a great lesson. I'm going to post it on my Instagram. What do you think? Russell: Do you have any questions? No. All right. Anybody else? Nick: That was a good question. It takes a lot to ask a question like that. Want to know why? Because most people wouldn't ask that question. I like it. I like the question. Great. You want to drop out too? Oh, okay. Just making sure. Just making sure. Russell: The good news for all your kids is everybody wants to drop out. It doesn't mean we do. I want to drop out of business lots of times. It gets hard. I got angry, I got people suing me. I got all sorts of stuff and it's tons of times I'm like, "Oh, it's so much easier to drop out." But it's like, well, I have a vision, we talked about it earlier. What's the vision? What are you trying to accomplish in life. You got to through a lot of hard stuff to get the good stuff. If you're not willing to go through the hard stuff, you never get the good stuff. Nick: You want a family one day? Dallin: Maybe. Nick: Okay. Do you want a girlfriend one day? Dallin: Yeah. Nick: Maybe. Or a boyfriend? Dallin: No. Nick: Okay. I don't know, whatever you go. But imagine your kid coming up to you one day and said, "My dad's a dropout." Dallin: I'd be proud. Nick: Dude, I like it. As long as you're proud of your decision and you made something of it, but I'm not your dad. I'm just a coach. Russell: He tells a story you told in lunchtime about your motivations that anchors you back to keep working out hard in the hard times. Nick: Yeah. So a lot of people ask me like, "How do you say so motivated to say so healthy with no legs, one arm?" And the reality is that there's a lot of kids that are paralyzed in wheelchairs. There's a lot of adults that are paralyzed in wheelchairs that look outside every day and say, "I wish I could go outside. Or I wish I could go to the gym," and they can't. But the one little visualization that I was going in with him is whenever I feel myself falling off track, I picture me, I'm 24, so I picture myself like 30, 35 and maybe I have a kid or two and I'm in my office. And that kid walks in and says, "Dad, why'd you get so fat? Dad, why did you let yourself go? Dad, you used to be a great speaker. Why did you give up on your dreams?" It makes me feel some type of way. If I really went into it, I'd probably start crying, because I never want my kid to look at me as a disappointment. And so I may not have kids now, but it's a motivation for me to keep going, because at one point I'm not going to be building a business for myself. Who am I going to be building a business for? My family. So it's way deeper than us as we get old. But you're young, so you've got time. Don't worry about kids calling you fat or anything. But what I'm saying is I visualize my kids looking at me and I want them to look at me proud, not as a fat dad that gave up on his dreams. Who agrees? Or a fat mom that gave up on their dreams. That's a bit aggressive. It works for me. Russell: That's awesome. Very cool. Anything else you've got? Nick: You guys are full of energy. I love it. Russell: I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming, spending time with us and the kids. Nick: You got it. Norah, thanks for beating me up today. Russell: This is awesome. All right. Let's give Nick a huge round of applause.

In this episode we talk about How to Shape Your Reality. 2:48 Manifesting What we want to talk about today, and we might be talking about it more and more, is how to shape your reality, basically manifesting.  And I think I know where I want to kick this off.  If you're not shaping your reality, the outside reality is gonna shape you. KISMA I feel like this goes beyond manifesting as well. When I think about shaping your reality, that involves the flow of your life and the direction that it goes, your experience of the things.  And I'm excited to let the conversation unfold. Nick 4:20 Four Principles of Shaping Your Reality So we want to look at these four principles of shaping your reality. And we might dial in a few of them in this episode, but they are knowing, heart, action, and receptivity. KISMA Knowing Heart Action Receptivity  Nick 4:41 Knowing Your Desired Reality If we start with knowing, the way that I teach this is we have to know what it is we want, and this can get confusing for people because they don’t know their big vision. You don't have to have the big, big vision, but if you're going to shape your reality, start to decide, what is that desired reality? What is it that you want your life to be? If it's something specific in relationships, something in your career or business or your health, you have to know it, and really begin to see that in your vision.  KISMA 10:27  Acceptance of What Is And when I think about heart, that to me, it's a little hard to describe actually, but it's not necessarily an emotional thing. It's when I'm really dropped into myself and choosing what's right for me. There's an inner sort of quietude around it or just an ease of like, “Oh, that's the thing. Oh, that's it. That's right for me. I know that's right for me. I can move in that direction”.  It's an inner peace that just says yes and it's so clear. Nick Yeah. I think it's an acceptance of what it is.  It's very much that inner knowing will come when we are in more belief of what it is we want. Belief in ourselves and belief in the Universe, in Spirit and Source that will provide it when we stay on that path. KISMA 13:43 Charged With Emotion The other thing that needs to happen for this piece of knowing and heart is, I think when you come upon something you want and it's charged with emotion, is being aware that it goes both ways.  If someone charges their desire with fear, they're going into the upside down affirmation, the negative affirmation, and that thought's going to be charged. When they charge it with gratitude, belief, and acceptance, it is also powerful.  It begins to mold out into this Universal Intelligence Space. KISMA 14:37 Present In The Knowing But the things we need to avoid are regret of the past and apprehension of the future.  Being right here, present in the knowing, dropped into heart and putting the emotion of gratitude for it, it's already existing. If we think about it, it's already existing. So it's staying in belief and dropped in. KISMA That allows the action to unfold which is the third step. Nick Yes, there's going to be action. Yes, there's going to be receptivity. And we'll talk about that in the next episode, but right here and now, everything begins with a thought. What we're dialing in here is how much in the knowing of what it is you want to attract, that you can see it, that you can feel it, that you can accept it and then be in this present moment and the next present moment so that you're in this space, you're in this Universal Substance ready to allow this thing to take shape. KISMA 20:38 Just Be Present Just be present if nothing else. This very exercise will elevate your vibe. It'll raise your frequency.  And then in the next episode, we'll talk more about the action and the receptivity to really bring these dreams into a reality for you. KISMA

This episode is about How to Anchor the Peace Within. 01:01 Your Peace There's a lot going on right now. Nick There is a lot going on, and that's why we wanted to talk about anchoring the peace within. We felt it was really important to find ways to bring your peace and anchor it because there is so much noise in the world, there is a lot of negativity, fear, and heaviness being thrown at us from many different directions.  KISMA 05:55 Present To The Universe What I've seen is that when there are events such as this pandemic, elections, where the country is seemingly very divided, the media plays on that, and there's so much negativity and manipulation from the media that if one isn't careful, it's going to go right into your energetic field, right into your subconscious.  We have to be present to The Universe in order to say, “Wait a minute, I'm not taking that on.” You have to consciously say, “I'm not taking on that negativity.” KISMA It's a really foreign thought for people to consider that you could live outside of that in a way, but you actually can.  Nick 09:50 Turn Down The Noise So what we're talking about here is the decision to go back to the basics and take care of yourself.  KISMA I think what you're really talking about is that's how you turn down the noise. Nick Yeah. You turn down the noise by just saying, “I don't want the noise. I'm going to choose to not take on any more noise. In fact, I'm going to look at all the noise that I'm allowing in right now and I'm going to decide where I'm going to turn that dial way down.”  And the dial might be on the TV. It might be on the radio. It might be on social media, your computer. The dial might be somebody you work with, or your friends who maybe have the same ideology as you, but they're just really negative about it right now. Protecting yourself, your mind, your heart, and your soul is the most important thing for you to anchor that peace within. KISMA Take a deep breath and just consider for yourself for a moment, where that noise is creeping in for you. Nick 12:55 Steps To Turn Down The Noise Let's go through a couple of steps that you can do every single day to turn those dials down.  Number one is going to be the choice that you come first and this is going to be tricky for a lot of you, but decide that you come first and decide that you're going to turn the noise down.  And secondly, decide that you're not going to have any guilt around it because that guilt thing will just replace the noise. KISMA You get to decide that for yourself. That's why we're talking about anchoring the piece and turning down the noise. It has to be turned down so that you can get your feet on the ground.  Nick 15:20 Deciding to Stay Steady Nick, give us an energetic key how to keep that steady once the choice is made to turn the dial down. KISMA It's deciding to stay in something positive and  proactive for yourself. Stay in your life.  If you stay in your life and do the things that you can do then you're going to be way better off.  Nick Remember to take care of self, to make a choice to turn that dial down and to focus on your most precious life. KISMA

Episode Notes [“Don’t Tell Me Your Major Theme” By Malena Ramnath] Malena: Hey, guys, my name is Malena Ramnath. Hannah: And I'm Hannah Fredly. Malena: And we are your hosts and freshmen here at Northwestern. This is Don't Tell Me Your Major an interview podcast where we avoid getting to know people on the surface level with questions like what their major is, where they're from, and how old they are, but try to get to know them on a more profound level. That's how you really know the kind of person someone is rather than judging them based on pre–established stereotypes. So we're here today in the thick of the Coronavirus quarantine, currently hosting this podcast over zoom, which is definitely weird but we're all very excited to be able to continue this despite the distance. And unfortunately, Alison couldn't join us today because she's in Seoul, Korea, and those time zones are insane. So today we're here with Hannah. Also on today's podcast is the one and only Nick, please say your last name for me, Nick. Nick: Schoenbrodt. Malena: Okay. And he is another Northwestern student with an impossible last name. And he just said hi. So we're super– Nick: Yeah, you're doing great. Malena: We're super excited to have you as today's guest. So where is everyone currently? I'm in DC. Hannah, where are you? Hannah: I'm currently in France. Nick: Oh, I am in New Jersey, the opposite of France. Malena: Um great. And so I figured since we're all stuck inside our questions today will be themed around being stuck. So without further ado, I figured we’d get started. Um, so Nick, what is your favorite stuck inside hobby now that we're in quarantine? Nick: Um, God, that's a good question. I have been doing almost nothing. But I got a new laptop. So I'm trying to get into music production a little bit which is fun, but also difficult when it's like the only thing there is to do and I don't have anything to like take a break from it with I guess, but that's what I've been doing. Mostly it's happening slowly. Malena: Damn, music production. Hannah, what are you doing now that you're stuck in bed? What are your hobbies that you've picked up to stay productive? Hannah: Um, well technically we're out of quarantine. So, ha. Malena: I hate you. Hannah: But, um, otherwise, something really fun to do is those like, workout videos that are like dance and workout at the same time. That's really fun. Nick: And that's on jazzercise. Malena: Well yeah, I mean, those two are like, generally more productive than me. I mean, I've been, I guess one of my hobbies– Oh, I'm learning Italian on Duolingo! You guys ready? Io no sono un ragazzo. Which means “I'm not a boy”. You know, and that's pretty much all I know how to say. Nick: That’s good. That’s gonna really come in handy I feel like. Malena: You know if anyone mistakes, you know, me for a little boy. You never know. Italians these days. Nick: That’s true. Hannah: Have you been keeping up with Duolingo? Malena: Yeah, the owl is really aggressive dude. It's always like: “You have one hour to save your streak! You're so lazy, it takes five minutes!” Nick: He, he yelled at me for not knowing my Greek alphabet and I think I, all I had done is like put Greek in a language I was like kind of interested in, in the app and he was like, like learn your alphabet, learn your alphabet! Hannah: He, as in the owl. Nick: Yeah, yes, he as in the owl, my, my good friend, the Duolingo owl. Malena: Evil demon that haunts my dreams, alright. Um, but okay, so moving on to our next question. What is the one movie you would watch if you were stuck with one for the rest of your life? Nick, your thoughts? Nick: Oh, no. These, I can't answer these questions without pulling up my like, letterbox like and looking at the movies I've seen. The Princess Bride is great. Just because it's fun, but like, I don't know, maybe like Whiplash if I want to like be stressed for the rest of my life. I don’t know. Malena: I mean, that would also push you to be ridiculously productive. Just like watching Whiplash and like, you know, striving– Nick: Cause watching, cause watching a two hour movie is the most productive thing you can do. Malena: This is, this is fact. Hannah, what about you? What are you thinking for your stuck-on-an-island with the rest of your like that for the rest of your life movie? Hannah: Um, how about Shutter Island? On the island? Nick: That's not good. That's not gonna stress you out. Malena: Shutter Island– brooooo. I watched that, we watched that on a really big like movie screen that we found and that it really freaked me out just like on the big screen. Leo DiCaprio killing you know, oh, spoilers. Sorry. You know, terrifying. Nick: Bleep it out in post you know. Malena: Yeah. For me, I think my desert island– I mean Princess Bride is a big classic. I love Call Me By Your Name. It's so calming. Just watching like handsome people run around northern Italy. We love to see it. We love to see it. Um, okay. And then my third question is, if you could be stuck anywhere in the world for quarantine, where would it be, like besides where you are right now? I'm sure you're very happy in New Jersey, Nick. So not to hate on New Jersey. Nick: Yeah, of course – it's it's great here. Malena: If you could be stuck anywhere else for quarantine where would you be stuck? Nick: So I am if my if we are remote fall quarter which, don’t talk to me about it cause it's not gonna happen and I won't let it happen. I think I'm planning to go – which is where I would go – to my cousin's beach house in California. And just like, it's like on a mountainside overlooking the ocean and just like sit in the backyard and take zoom classes outside for the entire quarter. That's the plan. Malena: That sounds like heaven. I'm jealous. Do you go there often? Nick: No, like, once every two years – Malena: And how old is your cousin that he has his own beach house? Nick: It's like my family like my, I guess it's my aunt’s and uncle’s. But I mean, he's like 22, 21, I don’t know. He's graduating this year, which is awful. But yeah. Malena: Hannah, what about you? I mean, France is a pretty great place to be stuck. So if you could be stuck elsewhere… Hannah: I'd be in Asia, dude in Asia. They are out of quarantine, people are just out, out and about. They’re partying, they've confined it more or less pretty well. They're just having the time of their lives. Anywhere in Asia. Malena: That's fair. That's fair. I do miss Singapore. Is still under circuit breaker. But our friends definitely out in Korea – shout out to Allison – are having the time of their lives as compared to the good old US of A. I'm quite jealous. Hannah: Florida’s having a good time. They don't give a fuck! Malena: No, it's okay. Hannah: You’re gonna have to bleep that. You’re gonna have to bleep it. Malena: No, you can swear– Hannah: I’m sorry, I'm giving you much more work than it had to be. Woops Malena: No, we can swear on this podcast– Nick: Malena is a dutiful editor. Malena: All right, and then I think that for me, I don't know, I'm definitely going through a very Greek phase. I'm reading Zorba the Greek, I was making Greek food, I have way too many Greek friends. And they're all sending me like videos from Athens of like the sunsets around their house. And I'm very jealous. So I think, probably Greece– just literally anywhere in Europe – because I feel like it's just stunning views. You know, like for me, I mean, I do get to see the Washington Monument from my apartment, but otherwise, Nick: Okay, flex. Malena: Not many, like you know, seaside views, in comparison, so I think anywhere in Europe with a seaside view would be my answer. All right, guys. And so for our final question for the day, this is you know, a little bit more personal, a little bit more difficult to answer. But if you could be stuck with anyone who you are not currently with right now in quarantine, who would you be stuck with and why? Nick: Like a someone that that listens to the podcast would not know who they are? Malena: I mean, it doesn't matter, you could give a shoutout to anyone. Nick: I mean, I mean, this is, you guys know who this is but other people wouldn't. It would be probably be Asteris or Artie. Malena: And for what reason would these two mystery men, who our listeners have no idea who they are? Nick: Well, because they they brighten up my day with their with their beautiful faces but also because, I don’t know, it'll just be fun to chill with them. I guess. Like it's a boring answer, but it's true. Like they're, they're people I just hang out with and I'm not getting that right now, not getting my fix right now. So, you know, getting, getting that fix. Malena: Yeah, I think the two of them have a very good sarcastic sense of humor that I think is generally lacking in most other people. Nick: Yeah. Malena: So. Nick: Yeah, and especially lacking in no social interaction at all, so. Hannah: Very true. Malena: Hannah, what about you? Hannah: I'd be stuck with you. Malena. I just blew you a kiss. I love you. Nick: That's a mistake. Malena: I know you miss me. Hannah: That was my declaration of love. Malena: I know you, Nick, we could be reading together. Fun fact. Nick is a major book nerd. Nick: Yeah but I haven’t read all quarantine. I’m – it’s a shame. Malena: I know. But– Nick: I have some things in the mail. It's coming. I'm going to force you to read it. Malena: I like that's, I mean, I'm always down to read more. That's definitely one hobby that I've picked up more is I've been reading a lot since I've been back. But, um, for me, who would I be stuck with? I mean, besides you, Hannah. Obviously, love of my whole life. Um, my heart is warmed by that answer. I don’t know, that's a tough one. I think– Hannah: It's fine. Go ahead, choose someone else but me. That's fine. Malena: No no it’s because I'm trying to think– Hannah: It’s fine. Malena: –of someone else but Hannah: I see how it is. Malena: –you but unfortunately, you're the only person I spend my time with. Nick: Ah, thanks, thanks, Malena I thought we were friends. I thought we were friends. Hannah: You’re digging yourself a hole right now. Malena: Oh, you know what, I really can't think of anyone else cuz then I would say like Asteris, but Nick already said it. Nick: We could all spend our time with Asteris. Malena: I know, but we're like just trying to – fun fact: Asteris lives in Athens, not to expose him, but you know, if I could be stuck with him right now – big life goals. Nick: Also I think he's still in quarantine though. Malena: Soon, soon they'll be out though. Europe's on its way as Hannah mentioned. You know if I could go out on a limb here, I’d probably say Timothee Chalamet. I've been having a major– Hannah: Okay here's another thing, I feel like Timothee Chalamet became so much more famous over quarantine. Malena: Yeah, it’s because everybody’s stuck inside and they have nothing to do but stare at celebrities. So yeah. Well, alright guys, thank you so much. Actually, that's perfect. We've just hit 13 minutes. And so we're going to end our podcast here. Thank you so much, Nick for being our guest, keeping us entertained during quarantine. Nick: Yeah, of course. Malena: Giving your opinions on things. It was so nice to get to know you. And this has been another successful podcast from NBN audio. Hannah say bye! Hannah: Bye-bye! Malena: Bye, gang. Nick: Peace. Malena: See you later, on our next podcast, which will hopefully be out soon. Bye! [“Don’t Tell Me Your Major Theme” By Malena Ramnath]

Surface miners, like the ones safety instructor Nick Ullrich teaches, get to play with some pretty big toys, like loading trucks with tires three times taller than the average person. But tires that big come with some pretty big blind spots, and Nick is using VR to get them used to those blind spots before putting them behind those gigantic wheels. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast, with your host, Alan Smithson. We all know safety comes first, and today, we're speaking with Nick Ullrich, a safety instructor from Gillette College, who's focused on using VR to train mining employees to become safer and better operators. Coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Nick, welcome to the show. Nick: Yes, Alan, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Alan: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. I read an article about how you're using VR to train mining employees. How did you get into this? Tell us a little bit about your background. Nick: Ok. Yeah, so the first project that we've done is a blind spot recognition, using virtual reality 360 photography as well. And it's to help miners -- when they're on the mine side -- understand the blind spots of heavy equipment. So we started with that because MSHA -- the Mine Safety and Health Administration -- has an initiative out there about powered haulage. And that's kind of where the idea came from. We see fatalities every year in the mining world. So I wanted to give everybody an understanding of what the blind spots for the heavy equipment that they're working around are on, and give them an idea of that. And virtual reality gave us an opportunity to do that without actually having to have all the equipment here at the college. So it works out great to give them a vision of what they would see if they were in that equipment. Alan: That's pretty cool. So you're talking about those big, huge dump trucks with the giant wheels and loaders and all these type of things? Nick: Yeah, absolutely. We have-- in the program that we have now, we have 10 pieces of equipment, it includes the 400 ton haul trucks, which is the largest haul trucks in the world. Those tires are approximately 15 feet high. Alan: Whoa. Nick: Yeah, next to them, you will go about to the middle of the tire. Alan: That's incredible. So you've got these trucks. Now, did you create them as 3D models and then climb inside of it? Or is this taken from like a 360 video type of thing? Nick: So we do a couple different things with it. We do have 3D models of all the pieces of equipment. So like I said, we have about ten pieces of equipment right now, and we just have 3D models of those, where people can walk around them virtually and see how big they are, put them to actual size or as close as I could get to actual size, by my recollection of them. They can get into them -- for the most part -- and just kind of see it in a virtual spot. And then we did go out to all the different mine sites and take 360 photography of each of those pieces of equipment. And we did it a really cool way. We set up a scene, so we had a whole lot of different things around the piece of equipment. So let's just say a haul trip, we have several different people and smaller vehicles, like light duty vehicles, such as just your normal pickup or van. We had those all set up in a special way, where you couldn't see them from the cab, so they were *in* the blind spots of that equipment. We took that 360 photo from the cab of that piece of equipment, so we can show everybody what the cab looks like and what they could see outside of it, knowing that they couldn't see any of the things in the blind s

Surface miners, like the ones safety instructor Nick Ullrich teaches, get to play with some pretty big toys, like loading trucks with tires three times taller than the average person. But tires that big come with some pretty big blind spots, and Nick is using VR to get them used to those blind spots before putting them behind those gigantic wheels. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast, with your host, Alan Smithson. We all know safety comes first, and today, we're speaking with Nick Ullrich, a safety instructor from Gillette College, who's focused on using VR to train mining employees to become safer and better operators. Coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Nick, welcome to the show. Nick: Yes, Alan, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Alan: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. I read an article about how you're using VR to train mining employees. How did you get into this? Tell us a little bit about your background. Nick: Ok. Yeah, so the first project that we've done is a blind spot recognition, using virtual reality 360 photography as well. And it's to help miners -- when they're on the mine side -- understand the blind spots of heavy equipment. So we started with that because MSHA -- the Mine Safety and Health Administration -- has an initiative out there about powered haulage. And that's kind of where the idea came from. We see fatalities every year in the mining world. So I wanted to give everybody an understanding of what the blind spots for the heavy equipment that they're working around are on, and give them an idea of that. And virtual reality gave us an opportunity to do that without actually having to have all the equipment here at the college. So it works out great to give them a vision of what they would see if they were in that equipment. Alan: That's pretty cool. So you're talking about those big, huge dump trucks with the giant wheels and loaders and all these type of things? Nick: Yeah, absolutely. We have-- in the program that we have now, we have 10 pieces of equipment, it includes the 400 ton haul trucks, which is the largest haul trucks in the world. Those tires are approximately 15 feet high. Alan: Whoa. Nick: Yeah, next to them, you will go about to the middle of the tire. Alan: That's incredible. So you've got these trucks. Now, did you create them as 3D models and then climb inside of it? Or is this taken from like a 360 video type of thing? Nick: So we do a couple different things with it. We do have 3D models of all the pieces of equipment. So like I said, we have about ten pieces of equipment right now, and we just have 3D models of those, where people can walk around them virtually and see how big they are, put them to actual size or as close as I could get to actual size, by my recollection of them. They can get into them -- for the most part -- and just kind of see it in a virtual spot. And then we did go out to all the different mine sites and take 360 photography of each of those pieces of equipment. And we did it a really cool way. We set up a scene, so we had a whole lot of different things around the piece of equipment. So let's just say a haul trip, we have several different people and smaller vehicles, like light duty vehicles, such as just your normal pickup or van. We had those all set up in a special way, where you couldn't see them from the cab, so they were *in* the blind spots of that equipment. We took that 360 photo from the cab of that piece of equipment, so we can show everybody what the cab looks like and what they could see outside of it, knowing that they couldn't see any of the things in the blind s

In this week’s episode, Our Life in Lockdown, Nick and I talk about our life during quarantine. 1:08 Quarantined I want to start this episode by saying we are not making light of the situation of COVID-19. But, maybe we're going to make a little bit of light about being quarantined. KISMA Yeah, it's freaking weird. I mean let's just call it what it is. This is a really weird time. Nick I'll just share, my life hasn't changed that much because I work from home or the office anyways. So it's been a full on schedule for me at work and even more so because I've really wanted to make sure all of my clients and students are doing okay and they're just amazing. They're just showing up so beautifully.  KISMA 2:47 Things aren’t the same But I think it was this week that I started to notice the things that aren't the same. Like, “Hey, I want to take a drive and get a cup of coffee at Phil's.” Oh, that's not going to happen.  And it's not like we're feeling sorry for ourselves. It's just noticing all the times where I want the pattern interrupt and it isn't there to take. KISMA I went for a drive last week. Oh, it was the best. I don't even know if I'm supposed to do that. Nick It was needed for mental health. KISMA I think it really was. Nick 06:29 Being More Present The cool things are being more present to really simple things that are so easy to brush off like our balconies, just opening the door and walking out, and noticing the moon or the morning or the fresh air, and that makes a difference for me. Of course you've been cooking so I'm super lucky. Nick is cooking like a mad man. Mostly vegan. But, where are some of the recipes coming from? KISMA A lot of them are coming from They're really good. They have two books. I highly recommend them. Their recipes themselves are hilarious to read, and the recipes are really good, so highly recommended.They're all very simple too, very easy.  Nick 10:11 Intense Energy  And you know, when you walk in the store, everybody's really focused, they're doing their thing, they're trying to keep their distance. I've noticed that people are trying to honor that. And there’s a kind of intense energy. Nick Yeah, it's intense. We like to do our weekly run together and everyone is being so great. Well, well-behaved. Everyone really is, but you can feel the sort of anxiety of, “I gotta get in and get out. Is there going to be enough?” The worry, the fear, it's so strong. You've heard us all talk about cutting cords, and it's really important to cut cords. When you leave the store, cut cords. On your day of shopping, have a salt bath later. No one's trying to put stuff on you. It's just happening. KISMA Yeah, it's just humans being humans. Nick 12:05 The Way We Approach It I've said this before and I'll continue to say it, the way that we approach it through prayer, through meditation, through our own light, I just refuse to believe that we won't make a difference. So it's really important to do whatever work you do. Say a prayer for the planet. Say a prayer for our leaders. Say a prayer. Meditate on so much love and light and power going to yourself, your family, your loved ones, medical professionals. Just take time every day to really send that kind of energy because even when one of us does it, it makes a difference, so we can imagine what happens when everyone does it. KISMA That's been a big part for me is making sure I'm very diligent with my time for meditations. There's an energetic process behind it that supports it to make it effective and productive. Nick 17:01 This Too Shall Pass Well I have an illuminated thought for today. This one we have probably said before, but this too shall pass. It really will. And one of the things I keep checking in with me is don't miss it. As rough as this is for some people, there's a golden nugget. There's something to take hold of and make your own. Maybe some space you've been craving, whatever it is, like grab it, you deserve it. KISMA 17:39 Part of a Historical Time Yeah, I don't want to say that I'm enjoying this necessarily. It's very strange, but also, there's a part of me that recognizes it's a very unique point in our history and this is something that not everybody will experience in a lifetime, and I don't want to miss it. I don't want to just get in and do all the same stuff I always do. I want to be a part of it. Like I want to be really present. Nick So we'll leave everyone with this. What can you do to really remind yourself you are part of a historical time?  KISMA

In today’s episode, we are talking about Leonard, our Boston terrier and the five lessons that we learned from The Bestest Boston Terrier Ever. If you're looking for a little bright space on the internet, go find 00:48  Our Boston Terrier I wonder how this episode is going to go because we're talking about Leonard, our Boston terrier. KISMA Sadly, Leonard has left us. He's crossed the rainbow bridge as they say. He was a really good dog. He was so amazing. Nick 6:29 Everyone Loves a Boston Terrier That brings me to lesson number one, everybody loves a Boston terrier. Nick Everyone loves a Boston terrier. They're just so freaking cute. KISMA Everywhere I walked with that dog, people would stop and they were like, “Oh my gosh, it's a Boston”. Or they were like, “Is he a Frenchie or is he a Boston?”. You know, and they were always just so taken with him. Nick 8:00 Making Friends So, the second lesson is that you can make friends easily. These are all things that I've learned really just by observing my dog. Nick  Yes, this is true because he's fun and he would sort of trot around and anybody that came up to him, loved him, and he would just be friends. KISMA 10:52 When You Know Someone, You Know What's another lesson? KISMA Number three. This is a big one. When you know someone, you know. When you know their habits, their patterns, like you know what this little being does and when you expect it to be different, you're just setting yourself up for a whole world of stress. Nick Just like people.  KISMA 14:32 Manifest through Persistence and Charm Lesson number four is a big one for me. This is something that I learned by watching this dog. His amazing, truly extraordinary ability to manifest through persistence and through charm. Nick So true. The guy had charm. KISMA Add charm and persistence and you have a winning combination.  If he wanted something, he would not quit. Nick 17:14 Unconditional Love The last lesson I want to talk about is more universal to dogs, is just how they teach us and show us and demonstrate that unconditional love. Nick Yeah, that's so true. We can mess up so many times and they still love us. We can turn our backs on them, yell at them, whatever, and they still love us. It really is a beautiful thing. KISMA I could understand what goes on in the dog's head that allows them to do that because it's a powerful thing.  It's so powerful. Leonard, He will be missed.Nick He will definitely be missed. KISMA

SEASON 2: EPISODE 5 Poet Nick Flynn talks about the ways in which he won't die. ABOUT THE GUEST Nick Flynn has worked as a ship’s captain, an electrician, and a caseworker for homeless adults. Some of the venues his poems, essays, and nonfiction have appeared in include the New Yorker, the Nation, the Paris Review, the New York Times Book Review, and NPR’s This American Life. His writing has won awards from the Guggenheim Foundation, the Library of Congress, PEN, and the Fine Arts Work Center, among other organizations. His film credits include artistic collaborator and “field poet” on Darwin’s Nightmare (nominated for an Academy Award for Best Feature Documentary in 2006), as well as executive producer and artistic collaborator on Being Flynn, the film version of his memoir Another Bullshit Night in Suck City. His most recent collection of poetry, I Will Destroy You, appeared from Graywolf Press in 2019. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, Lili Taylor, and his daughter, Maeve. http://www.nickflynn.org/ ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.  Producer: Devon Guinn  Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue  Mixer: Andrew Litton  Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver  Theme Song: Jeff Hiller  Website: Itai Almor Media: Justine Lee Interns: Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Nick Rymer, Sue Simon, Maddy Sinnock TRANSCRIPTION NICK FLYNN: I was driving my daughter to soccer. And she had a bike and I had a bike and we'd ride, even though it was a little cold.  NEIL GOLDBERG: Yeah.  NICK: But a guy went by on a bike and he had like a boombox, one of those boombox that plays, he's playing like a podcast, like really loud, and it was so odd. We both just laughed. It was like, what is that? You're just blasting a podcast going down the street, blasting.  NEIL: This is fresh air.  Hello, I'm Neil Goldberg and this is SHE'S A TALKER. I'm a visual artist and this podcast is my thinly veiled excuse to get some of my favorite New York writers, artists, performers, and beyond into the studio to chat. For prompts, I use a collection of thousands of index cards on which I've been writing thoughts and observations for the past two decades, kind of like one of those party games, but hopefully not as cheesy.  These days, the cards often start as recordings I make into my phone. Here are some recent ones: I really love how Beverly pronounces 'Meow'. It's never appropriate to share scrap paper from home with students. I'm never sure what a simmer is. I'm so happy to have as my guest, poet Nick Flynn. I have been a hardcore fan of Nick's writing since his first book, Some Ether, came out in 2000 and was blown away by his memoirs, Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, and The Ticking is the Bomb. In the fall, he released a new book of poetry, I Will Destroy You, and in the next few months he has two more books coming out: Stay, and This is the Night Our House Will Catch on Fire. I met Nick briefly in, I think, the late eighties in Provincetown, and we reconnected recently via our mutual friend, Jacques Servin, who is on an earlier episode. Nick and I spoke in January at a recording studio at The New School near Union Square in New York City. NEIL: Are you comfortable?  NICK: Like on a scale of one to ten?  NEIL: Like, you know those smiley faces, like if you're in the hospital. NICK: How much pain I have? Uh, I hadn't even thought about it till you just said that. Now I'm wondering if I am, so.  NEIL: I feel like I'm, I'm totally not, I'm not feeling any pain at the moment.  NICK: No, I'm not feeling any pain. No, I'm feeling no pain.  NEIL: That's different from, feeling no pain is different from not feeling any pain. NICK: That means if you're kind of fucked up, I think.  NEIL: Exactly.  NICK: You're feeling no pain.  NEIL: Um, I'm so happy to have you, Nick Flynn, on the show, SHE'S A TALKER.  NICK: I'm happy to be here, Neil Goldberg -  NEIL: I, you know -   NICK: on the show SHE'S A TALKER. Is the 'She' the cat? NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: That's, that's who the 'she' is.  NEIL: It is, yeah. I, you know -  NICK: I guess I got that. Yeah.  NEIL: Well, you know, in 1993 when everyone was dying... Everyone is still dying, but just differently.  NICK: I remember that. Yeah.  NEIL: Yeah. Uh, you know, I did a video project where I interviewed, it turned out to be, like about 80 gay men all over New York City in all five boroughs who had female cats, combing their cats and saying "She's a Talker." NICK: They were combing the cats?  NEIL: Combing the cat. It was just almost like, it was like a stealthy way to like, not stealthy, but it was a way to document a lot of gay men who felt like really imperiled, and it was my first video project. And, I don't know, when I decided to name this, that came up for me. But subsequently I get a lot of like, what does the word 'she' mean at this point? NICK: Right, right, right. Yeah.  NEIL: Maybe I should rebrand it. What should I call it?  NICK: Uh, you should stick with it, I think. Hmm.  NEIL: Uh, when, when you're looking for like a short hand, like you encounter someone on the proverbial elevator and are looking for like a pithy way to describe who it is you are and what it is you do, what do you, what do you reach for? NICK: I say I'm a poet.  NEIL: Period.  NICK: Period. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that usually gets a pretty dead-eyed stare like the one you just gave me. Like that's it? That's it.  NEIL: When someone is confronted with poet, silence, do you ever feel like helping someone out?  NICK: Well, it depends on like, often, that'll pretty much be the conversation-ender.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: So it does nothing to help cause they're gone right at that point.  NEIL: If your folks were around, how might they describe who it is you've become? NICK: Wow, that's a, that's an interesting one. Would they, would they still be, are they like idealized, my, like my parents on their best day or on their worst day?  NEIL: Oh, I wouldn't mind hearing both if you don't mind. Like the...  NICK: Ah, like, you know, there's the idealized version of your parents. Then there's the, not the reality, but the, you know, but recognizing at a certain point that they had some rough days, you know. In my mind, it's hard to deny they had some rough days. So, um, it's a little, it's a little harder to pretend. Yeah. Uh, my father, he knew that I'd published books and he was sort of, you know, strangely proud of that. Uh, but proud just in the way he knew I'd be a good writer because he was such a great writer, so I got it all from him. So he took all credit for any of it. So I imagined he would still take credit for any accomplishments I've had or that he perceives I've had. I've, I'm trying to think if he had like on a good day, that's sort of like a not so good day. Yeah. On a good day, he did have a couple moments where he was able to just recognize the struggle it had been, uh, between the two of us, uh, to actually acknowledge that. And I think that would be like, he'd say like, yeah, this was, this must have been hard, you know? So I think that would be. That'd be a good day for him.  My mother's a little more enigmatic, like it's actually, when I think about it, like, cause I mean, she died before he did. I was younger. I didn't know her as well, probably. So, although I grew up with her, but, um, I sort of studied my father more, and my mother's more of a, uh, a construct of the imagination in some ways. Although, I mean, we spent so much time together too. It's strange to say that actually, I don't know if that's true.  You know, I, there's always the question like, what would my mother be like now? So I'm, I look at women that are my mother's age, that would be my mother's age now. Like I don't know how, how she would be. So either way, I think she's, since she, from her backhouse sort of WASP-y Irish background, she probably wouldn't say directly anything. I'd have to decipher what she said.   NEIL: So it would be cryptic in terms of her estimation of you, or?  NICK: I mean, she, I think she'd say, "Oh, I'm, I'm proud of you." But the deeper levels of that I think would be harder to get to.  NEIL: Yeah. I see you came in, you were, you had a bike helmet, which I connect to. Um, on your bike ride over, did you have any thoughts?  NICK: Wow. Thoughts as I was coming here - the sort of meta thing is I was listening on my headphones to SHE'S A TALKER. And you're talking to someone about riding a bike over the bridge.  NEIL: Right, yeah.  NICK: So like, yeah. I mean, at the moment I was riding over the bridge. I was listening to you talk to someone else about riding over the bridge and then thinking that I would soon be here talking to you, and I brought my helmet it, I didn't - usually I lock it on my bike  but maybe I brought it in so you would ask me about it. It's possible, but I think I just brought it in cause it was cold, it was so cold outside. I wanted a warm helmet when I went back out. So.  NEIL: Aha, you didn't want to put on a cold helmet. I never thought about that. NICK: What I thought about on the bridge was that it was way colder than I thought it was. It was the wind, it was like howling and I had a hat in my bag and I kept thinking, I'll just stop and put my hat on under my helmet and I didn't stop. I kept thinking, I'll warm up at some point, but I just kept getting colder and colder the further I went. I just never stopped, I just kept going.  NEIL: Well, let's, um, go to some cards that I curated for you.  NICK: You curate these for this conversation?  NEIL: Yes. Yeah.   (Card flip)  So the first card is: the specific, tentative, hyper-attentive way one tastes something to see if it's gone bad. NICK: Um, what I usually do is I'll, I'll, I'll cook it and then give it to my brother. NEIL: Mikey likes it?  NICK: Yeah. And then if he can get through it then it probably hasn't gone so far bad. Cause he's pretty sensitive actually. I mean, while I'm presenting, it sounds like he'd just eat anything. No. He's quite sensitive. So he's like sort of the. He's, he, he, he's a Canary. Ah ha. Yeah. So I'll just fix it up and give it to him and then, cause he'll, usually, he's quite happy if I make him something, give him some food, then if it's no good, then, then I throw it away. Yeah. If he eats it, I'll eat it.  NEIL: He's your taster. Um, where, where does your brother live?  NICK: He lives upstate, New York.  NEIL: Oh, okay. Yeah, but he's your older brother, right, if I'm remembering? NICK: But why did you say, "but." Because he lives upstate?  NEIL: No, because of the scenario of like, your brother, the implication. He's an implied younger brother in the story.  NICK: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. He's an implied younger brother in life too.  (Card Flip)  NEIL: Next card. When a toddler falls, that space before they start to cry. NICK: Well. My daughter was, uh, three. And for us, like three was really like, spectacular meltdowns and just like, you know, tantrums and just like wildness, just like absolutely wild, like wild animal, just screaming and frustrated and like, you know, furious. And one day she, uh, she was in a tantrum, she fell and she hit her cheek on the corner of a staircase and it split open and like bled. It sort of woke her up. Like it was right at the end of her being three, she was going to turn four. It was a Sunday night. And my wife and I were like, Oh, what do we do? Like, I'm like, I guess, do we take her to her doctor or do we like, you know, just like, like leave her with a scar for the rest of her life? And so I butterfly-stitched it, you know, like made a little butterfly thing, to hold it together to squish the skin together, you know? And, uh. That's what we did. We sort of looked up t see like how big and deep it had to be to go to a doctor and stuff and to need a stitch, and it was sort of right on the edge. So I butterfly-stitched it, and then. Yeah so now she just has this pretty little scar on her face and she's perfect.  NEIL: Wow. And does she know the story of the scar?  NICK: Oh yeah. I would say it's a part of her myth, part of her origin myth. The wildest, the wildness poured out of her cheek. Yeah. Yeah.  NEIL: Uh, can, can you share -  NICK: Did that answer your question? NEIL: Yes and no. That's always the, um, I think it's beautiful. I have the idea, I'm not a parent, but when I see a kid having a tantrum - NICK: I wasn't either before that.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: It comes on kind of suddenly.  NEIL: But how did you deal with tantrums?  NICK: I, I've been sort of attentive and amused by the whole process. Like I feel like we're really lucky. She's a really good kid and just a really interesting kid and like, so I just sort of like see it, like, I admire the tantrums in a certain way. Like, I think everyone should be like, just screaming, running down the streets, you know, most of the time. Like this sucks. Um, so there was something very, uh, wild about it. Like just to see like, wow, like you can just do this. You can just go and like, you can go to a store and just pull a whole rack down. If you don't get your Popsicle, you don't fucking. She, she used to fire me like every day as a father. She said, if you do not give me that Popsicle, you will not be able to kiss me. You will not be able to hug me. You will not be my father.  NEIL: What did you say to that?  NICK: I'm like, Oh, that's really hard. I'd be sad not to be your father. She was like, you will not be able to, you will have to go to Texas and never come back.  NEIL: Crafty.  NICK: Yeah, she was good. Yeah, but I, you know, I was onto her though. Yeah. I'd be her father like in half an hour later. NEIL: Did you ever say -   NICK: She'd rehire me like half hour later. Yeah.  NEIL: Was there a re-intake process?  NICK: No. No. We just pretended it didn't happen. Yeah, it was all moving forward. It was all the continuous present.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: You just kept this present moment. This present moment had no connection to the other moments whatsoever. NEIL: Did you ever join your daughter in a tantrum?  NICK: Did I ever join her in a tantrum? Oh, wow. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I remember one night, like early on when she was like six months old and that. The beautiful hallucination of early parenthood where you just, you just don't sleep. You just like, you're just awake for like months. Like just not sleeping. And you just fall asleep in the middle of things. Just like, you know, you can just barely do anything. Everything's filthy and like, you know, you just wash all the clothes and immediately they're filthy again, the food is just taken and thrown to the floor. I think the dogs eat it. You just give up in a certain way. There's one night I was up with her at like three in the morning and she was just screaming. And I was just like, I think I filmed her screaming with my phone. I'm just like, okay, just scream. Just scream. I'm going to make a movie of you screaming. I was like, I don't know what to do. So I just made a little movie of her. NEIL: Wow. But you didn't, but, but it didn't call on you the feeling of like, now I am going to lose it myself and cry?  NICK: Um, well, I think I viewed, it's like, you know, I'm from like a sort of WASP-y Irish background, and so we don't really show that stuff. And I'm sort of always like that, but it don't, I don't, I try. I think no one can see it, but I think everyone actually sees it.  NEIL: So always you're, you're crying always. NICK: Melting down, yeah.  (Card Flips)  NEIL: Okay. Kids with artist parents. Because both you and your wife are artists. Like to me, the idea of like, two artists come together and they have a kid, well that's going to be a super kid. And then that kid maybe, will - NICK: Be with another artist, yeah. NEIL: It's almost like an artistic eugenics kind of vision or something.  NICK: Um, yeah. I always think it for our daughter, like Lord help her. Really. I don't think like, Oh, you've been, you've won the lottery. Like, like, this is the card, this is the hand you've been dealt. Good luck with it. You know, we're both like, yeah, we're both a little. I, I don't know, I don't know if neurotic is the right word, but like, you know. You know, we're, we're sensitive. We're like, you know, in some ways not made for this world, we're, we're awkward where other people are comfortable, we're, uh, you know, we found our place to, to survive, which is really lucky, you know? And also, you know, in a culture, like I'm a poet too, I'm not, like, it's not that like, this is like some hugely respected artistic position in our culture at the moment. You know, like, that's why I say that I, I say it perversely if someone asks me, with the elevator pitches, like if they ask me what I do, I say I'm a poet. And just because it's perverse, it's like it's so perverse, you know? You know when, if you go to a doctor's office, I write it on a form. I write 'poet', just, you might as well ride hobo or something. Right? That's not right. I'm a wizard. So it's not like, it doesn't feel like that she's suddenly being dealt like this, like, like a superhuman. Like, what are you talking about?  NEIL: Right. NICK:  It's just unfortunate. Like, you know. Artists get attracted to artists because we can vaguely understand each other, maybe. You know, we're not like, you know, I've tried to be with civilians before and it's like, not easy, you know? I really, I feel less understood, you know? I barely feel like I fit in now. To this world. So you know, you find someone who you feel like, yeah, you also don't feel like you fit in. So that's a kind of connection.  NEIL: How does your, how does your daughter describe what, what you both do? Does she unabashedly say -  NICK: Well, it's a little easier for Lily, for my wife. I mean, cause she's like, you know, people actually will sometimes recognize her on the streets and stuff, so she's a little prouder.  NEIL: But him, the hobo.  NICK: And my dad's a poet.  (Card Flip)  NEIL: Okay. Next card: the fetishization of storytelling.  NICK: Yeah. Right now there's a, there's a whole storytelling thing going on, right? Yeah. There's a whole sense of revival and stuff, and I don't exactly get it. I mean, I, I admire it, like I've gone to The Moth, I've participated in a couple of storytelling things. It's a, it's a strange form for me. It's a strange art form for me, and I admire it when it's done really well. I admire it. The ones I've gone to, that I've been part of, they were, kind of felt a little closer to stand-up, which is another art form too. But I'm like, the line is a little blurry and a little like strange and, and it makes sense that stand-up would be part of it. Cause they are sort of like, like jokes in a way. They're sort of packaged. I mean it's a packaged form. It's like improv is more interesting to me. Like where you don't know where it's going to go. But where, if you know where, I mean, like I say, people that do it well, it's really beautiful.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: It's just not what I do. It's like memoir is not storytelling. Uh, it's another form. And storytelling is like one part of it. You sort of tell the story, but then you sort of have to turn over the story and say like, why am I telling this story? Like what am I trying to present in telling this story, ignores all these other realities that are happening or all these other things I don't want you to know. People will come up and say like, you know, how's it feel to like, have that people know so much about you now? Like, well, you only know what I want you to know. You're gonna get some glimpse from a book.  NEIL: Right. Yeah.  NICK: From storytelling, I don't know even what glimpse you get, you get a glimpse of how they tell a story I guess. I want to know about other people. I want to know like what their, the interior life is of other people, what the landscape is. Which is why I like read... Or, why I, why I do anything. Like go see art. Or just to sort of like have that, so you're not so, so you recognize it's not all, all ego, you know? It's not all, like everything isn't sort of springing forth from within me. You know?  NEIL: Right. I'm not interested in other people's stories generally.  NICK: Yeah.  NEIL: Specifically too. I'm not interested in other people's stories, but I'm interested in hearing people think, which is what this podcast is about. So like the way their thought processes reveal themselves. That interests me. I don't know, but I'm, I'm, I'm not interested in the content. NICK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand. Yeah. I teach creative writing and often it's like, I'm much more interested in like, the stuff around the content. It's not about the content, like it's more about the stuff around like how you're like, like, you know, how this one thing transformed something else or how you chose to make this weird sentence, or how like these things that have sort of moments of excitement. The story itself can be rather deadening.  NEIL: Right.  NICK: Yeah. Because, I think because it's somewhat packaged too, it is a lot of times, yeah.  NEIL: But I also, the thing I really resist is this, like: "We're about stories." You know, like the, this fetishization of storytelling has creeped into like how, how stories are talked about. It's like, we bring you stories da da da, stories. It's like, it feels infantilizing too.  NICK: Well, you know, I was just talking about this with one of my, some of my students, uh. You know, the, what's the most famous Joan Didion line? "We tell ourselves stories in order to live."  NEIL: Right, right.  NICK: And, yet, The White Album goes on. That's the first line of The White Album. That'll probably be on her tombstone. Uh, you know, they make bookmarks of it in bookstores, and yet if you actually read The White Album, that essay, she totally just doesn't believe it and contradicts it and says like, why? Like this makes no sense at all. And like that this is, I thought I could do this. Like I was, I was desperately trying to create a story that would protect me from something and it, none of it worked. And it just dissolves, the whole thing just all is like, so to take that one line out of context and say, this is actually a truism is so strange. It doesn't make any sense at all. And there's a  thing, my therapist came up with this thing of the, I don't know if he came up with it, but we talk about my, one of my disorders, uh, one of my many disorders is a narrative affect disorder where I'll create like stories like, but you know, it's not stories like you're talking about, it's creating books and creating like versions of what happened, um, in order to contain it and to be able to hold onto it in a way that seems safe, so I don't have to feel the actual emotional intensity of it.  NEIL: Right.  NICK: Um, and I think it's, it is a type of illness. I think storytelling is a type of illness, uh, that keeps you from actually feeling.  (Card Flips)   NEIL: Next card: often when I leave the apartment, I think, is this how I'd like it to be found if I die today? NICK: I think that one's more about you than me. I think. Um.  NEIL: You don't think that when you leave?  NICK: Well, I don't think I'm ever going to die. I'm pretty sure. NEIL: Do you really believe that?  NICK: Yeah. Like I, yeah, no. I have a thing where like, I'm, I'm, there's, well, I just know the ways I'm not going to die.  NEIL: Okay. Let's hear it.  NICK: I'm not going to die in an airplane crash. I'm not going to die by getting eaten by a shark. Might die by getting hit by a car on a bicycle. I mean I might, so I have to be careful.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: But I can swim for miles in the ocean filled with sharks. I'm fine. Yesterday I was on a plane coming from Houston and, uh, it was just like, like being on a ship in the middle of a, of a nor'easter. Like it was just wild, you know, like it really, like it was almost spinning. Yeah. I was fine. I'm like, Oh, this is cool cause I'm not gonna die in a plane. Like, you know, so I just have these sorts of things. They might be, you know, just delusional. You know, I mean, how could I possibly know? But I'm almost positive I'm not going to get eaten by a shark. NEIL: Uh huh.  NICK: Which really, which really helps in Provincetown. Cause there's a lot of sharks there now and a lot of people don't swim in the water. And I'm like, ask yourself, are you going to get eaten by a shark? Do you really think that's the way you're gonna die? And most people would say no. I mean, wouldn't you say no? Like no. If you know, on a rational day, like that'd be really, and if you did, that'd be so cool. Like how many people, how many poets get eaten by a shark? That'd be so excellent, right? Like it's a win-win. I have a poet, there's a poet, Craig Arnold, a really great poet that died a couple of years ago. He was writing a whole series of poems on volcanoes. Traveling the world, like got a grant to travel the world and look at volcanoes. He's just gone. He just vanished one day. He vanished. We think he fell into a volcano and died. Like, that's like an amazing story. Like it's terrible, terrible, awful. But I mean, there are a lot worse ways to die than falling into a volcano.  NEIL: Oh my God. How would you feel about being bitten by a shark and surviving it?  NICK: That's cool. That woman, that, that surfer that only has one arm, she's cool.  NEIL: You'd be okay with that?  NICK: If I could surf like her.  (Card Flips)  NEIL: Um.  NICK: I really killed this bottle of Perrier.  NEIL: Oh, awesome. I love it. Um, good job. Uh: the ambiguity of "It's downhill from here."  NICK: Oh. The whole idea of like, you know. There's a few things. Yeah. The opposite is all uphill from here, right. It's all, so downhill sounds pretty good, right? But it suggests like we're sliding into the grave, I think. NEIL: Yes.  NICK: Like it's all like we've reached the peak.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: That was the peak. It was really hard to get to the peak. And as soon as you get to the peak, you start going downhill. Yeah. You know? Uh, and, uh. Yeah, I often joke, yeah, I'm on the other side of the, on the other side, now, you know, that you somehow that the, the, the greatest work and the greatest, uh, notoriety so that was a while ago. Um, and.  NEIL: But also maybe the greatest struggle, no?  NICK: Was a while ago.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: Yeah. Oh, I dunno. But I, I joke about it. I just, I don't really believe that. The most recent project I'm doing just feels completely, uh, uh, fulfills me. You know, I'd have this other book coming out, this book, Stay, coming out, which I'm, I worked on a lot last year and I'm happy with that. And another book coming out after that. So there's like, you know, I don't really worry about it, but it's, it's almost a thing. It might be sort of Irish too, like just so you don't want to sort of, uh, be too full of yourself. You know, you want to like sort of be somewhat, you don't want to show how many fish you caught that day cause then you have to give half away. So you sort of downplay it. You downplay it. So the downhill side is where we sort of live. We live on the downhill side. I don't know, it's a strange metaphor.  NEIL: It's, it's ambiguous. NICK: Yeah, it's a strange metaphor.  NEIL: But I'm also thinking it's a paradox, too, and, as you talked, because take the downhill part. Um, it does get easier.  NICK: Yeah.  NEIL: I think, I mean, my life, I will say, and anything could change at any moment, has gotten so much easier, you know, now that I'm clearly on the other side. NICK: Psychic.  NEIL: Yeah.  NICK: Psychically. Yeah.  NEIL: For sure.  NICK: Yeah. Yeah.  NEIL: Um, yeah. It's also, I am sliding into the grave. Yeah. I mean, hopefully it's a long slide, but...  NICK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mortality. The cold wind of mortality does start to, you start to feel it. At a certain point.  NEIL: In your back.  NICK: Yeah. You started, you know, it's blown in your face. Yeah. It's like, it's like you feel it, which I, you sort of thought you felt it in your 20's but you really, you could have, I mean, we know a lot of people that died in their 20's, sure. It was not like this. This is like the real thing. Yeah. This is like, yeah. There's no, like, there's no choice in the matter. So like, yeah, maybe I'll just overdose or something, you know, or, or, you know, or I'll just be reckless and didn't die. Now it's like, yeah, no matter what I do, doesn't matter what I do, I can, I can eat kale, I can eat kale the rest of my life.  NEIL: Yeah. I don't have to coax the process and it's still going to happen. NICK: Yeah.   (Card Flips)  NEIL: The existential space of the clipboard. NICK: Well, I mean, clipboard, I think when you say clipboard, I was thinking of just like first of a blank clipboard, but then I was also thinking of the thing you put clippings on, that you put other things on, combine things together.  NEIL: I'm thinking of the clipboard, the computer clipboard. Like when you cut something. That space.  NICK: Well, what do, what is it? What is that on the computer?  NEIL: The clipboard. NICK: Yeah. What is that? I'm not sure what it, what do you mean? You cut and paste stuff? Or... NEIL: Anytime you, surely you do Command X and Command C, right?  NICK: You mean like copy things and then cut things? Yeah. Yeah. Cut. Yeah.  NEIL: So when you copy something -  NICK: And Command V.  NEIL: Oh yeah.  NICK: Yeah, yeah. Can't forget Command V.  NEIL: Absolutely. When you do Command C - NICK: Yeah. That copies it.  NEIL: Into the clipboard. And then that command, do Command V - NICK: It takes it off the clipboard.  NEIL: Yeah. Well, it stays in the clipboard, but it also pastes the inside.  NICK: See I don't think, I never knew that. Yeah. I never would've thought of that.  NEIL: I'm acutely aware of the clipboard. NICK: I never thought where it went. Oh. Oh. Well, this is a tough question cause I've never really thought of this before. So, uh, existential, I mean, that's kind of heavy to suggest it has to do with life or death. Um, uh.  NEIL: You don't think about your text in that kind of liminal state between when you cut it and when you've pasted it? NICK: I figured it just, it goes away. Like it doesn't, like if I, if I cut something else, then that replaces the thing I cut before, or if I copy something else, replaces the thing. So I just assume there's not a clipboard holding all of them.  NEIL: No, it isn't. That's part of the existential condition.  NICK: Cause it just vanishes once you put something else on top, once you copy something else.  NEIL: Yeah. It's fragile.  NICK: Yeah. I make a lot of copies. I try to, I try to like, save things as much as possible and like, yeah, like I'm, and print things up. I, I prefer to write by hand first. Uh, really. Um, and then to print it and then to write by hand on the thing I've printed and then to keep going back and forth like that. I like writing by hand. There's a, there's a young poet, um, who created an app called 'Midst.' It's hard to say midst, like in, you're in the midst of something. Yeah. I don't know how to - midst. M. I. D. S. T. It's very hard to say for me.  NEIL: Yeah. Me too.  NICK: Can you say it?  NEIL: Uh, yeah. I feel like it's going to intersect with my sibilant A-S. Let's try it. Midst.  NICK: Yeah. Oh, you do feel very well.  NEIL: But a little gay, right?  NICK: I didn't, I didn't say that. I raised one eyebrow, but I did not say it.  NEIL: When straight men raise one eyebrow, it somehow doesn't look gay. Midst. Midst. What's Midst?  NICK: Well, it's a, it's a program that she did where you can, where you write a poem, I guess you write anything, but it sort of keeps track of all the cutting and pasting you do and the, the process of making it. So you ended up, you send her like a final poem, but then she can press a button and can see all the stuff you did to make it. Um, so I have to try it though, but I usually, I really usually write by hand first and she's like, no, you have to write it on the, you have to compose the whole thing on the thing. I'm like, okay, so I just haven't quite done it yet, but I'm, yeah, I'm planning on it though.  NEIL: But this is basically, this isn't a useful tool. This is a tool to create a kind of -  NICK: To create a thing. She'll publish like a magazine that shows, like you look at a poem and then you press a button and it all sort of like, maybe it goes in reverse and dissolves back to the first word or something.  NEIL: Yeah. I just am not into those kinds of things. I feel like there's a lot of that peripheral to the art world. These things that kind of like perform a process or reveal a process. I'm just not into that. You know what I'm saying? NICK: No, but that's okay. I mean, I try, I believe that you are not into it. I'm just like, process is nice. Like I love, I love, I love seeing the process. I love seeing, don't you love like, like thinking like Michelangelo's slaves, you know, on the way to the David, right?  NEIL: Oh yeah.  NICK: We get to see the slaves like coming out of the block of marble and everyone says that they were like incomplete.  NEIL: Yes.  NICK: Yeah. We just said, which is such bullshit. Like if you think about it, like what, he did twelve incomplete at the same stage, like they're half out of the block just, Oh, I'm just gonna stop them all here.  NEIL: Right?  NICK: Like, it makes no sense at all. Like you couldn't finish one of them? NEIL: Right. NICK: Like he clearly saw that it looked cool for slaves who were pulling themselves out of what they're stuck in. And that, I find it so much more interesting than David, which is complete and perfect. I think, I think that's the meta thing where it's like all about process. That's like the process right there.  NEIL: Huh.  NICK: Yeah. So I try to think about that. That was just sort of a highfalutin way to counter your anti-process.  NEIL: Doesn't feel highfalutin. I think my thing was like faux highfalutin.  (Card Flips)  What keeps you going?  NICK: Um. Uh, just wondering what's gonna happen next. Yeah. Yeah. NEIL: Poet. On that note, thank you, Nick Flynn, for being on SHE'S A TALKER. NICK: Thank you, Neil. NEIL: That was my conversation with Nick Flynn. Thank you for listening.  Before we get to the credits, there were some listener responses to cards that I'd love to share. In my conversation with artist Tony Bluestone, we talked about the card: That moment when you forget what you should be worrying about and try to reclaim it. In response to that card, Jamie Wolf wrote, "A single brussel sprout rolled under the stove, and I wasn't gonna let Shavasana get in the way of my at least remembering to retrieve it." John Kensal responded with what I think is a haiku: Please sit or flee, my wee and quiet executive function disorder. Another card Tony and I talked about was: Fog is queer weather, to which Jonathan Taylor wrote, "To me, fog is transgressive because it's like a cloud. So it's either you or it is not where it's supposed to be."  Thanks to everyone who wrote in. If you have something you'd like to share about a card on the podcast, email us or send us a voice memo at shesatalker@gmail.com or message us on Instagram at shesatalker. And also, as always, we'd love it if you'd rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or share this episode with a friend. This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund. Devin Guinn produced this episode. Molly Donahue and Aaron Dalton are our consulting producers. Justine Lee handles social media. Our interns are Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho, and Rachel Wang. Our card flip beats come from Josh Graver. And my husband, Jeff Hiller, sings the theme song you're about to hear. Thanks to all of them, and to my guest, Nick Flynn, and to you for listening. JEFF HILLER: She's a talker with Neil Goldberg. She's a talker with fabulous guests. She's a talker, it's better than it sounds, yeah!

We cover the basics on the traditional IRA. John and Nick will break down what this investment vehicle is for and how it may be able to benefit you.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.comFor a transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/Transcript of Today's Show:----more----Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome into this edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick here with me, talking about investing finance and retirement. From their office, their PFG Private Wealth in Tampa Bay guys, what's going on? How are you this week, John?John: I'm good. How are you doing?Speaker 1: I'm hanging in there. Amidst the goofiness of the world, I'm doing all right. How about you, Nick? You doing okay?Nick: Yep, yep. Pretty good. We finished up the retirement classes that we teach recently, so just meeting with a lot of people after that class.Speaker 1: Okay. Those went pretty well?Nick: Yeah. Yeah, always good. Always fun.Speaker 1: Okay, well, very good. Listen, I got a little bit of a kind of a class idea for us to run through here. I wanted to talk this week about IRAs, really just an IRA 101, if you will, and then we'll follow it up with our next podcast coming up after this one. We'll follow up with the Roth side of the coin. Let's jump into here just a little bit and talk about this and get rocking and rolling. Just do us a favor. Just assume that we don't all have the same knowledge base. What is an IRA? Give us just a quick 101 on that.John: So yeah, good question. Especially with a tax season coming up, because I know a lot of people when they're doing their taxes, and whether it's TurboTax or working with an accountant, at the end of it it says you might want contribute to an IRA and maybe save some taxes this year. Or maybe get [inaudible 00:01:22] taxable income down the road. But you brought this topic up. So when I raise an individual retirement account on the personal side, a lot of people have their employer sponsored plans, but the IRA is for the individual. Really, there's a lot of tax benefits to it to provide for saving for retirement. One of the biggest questions that Nick and I get, or I guess assumptions, is that most people think an IRA is an actual investment, and it's really not. I explain it as imagine a tax shell, a tax shell you can invest in a lot of different things, and you have some tax benefits within the shell.Speaker 1: Okay. So it's like a turtle shell, if you want to look out that way. It's a wrapper really, right? So it's what your Snicker bar comes in. It's the wrapper. Then inside there you can put all sorts of different stuff. So who can contribute to IRAs?John: Well, there's two main types, and Nick will jump into that. But there's your traditional IRA and then a Roth IRA.Speaker 1: Okay.Nick: From the standpoint of how those break down, how those work, we're going to focus on traditional IRAs today. The number one determination on whether or not you can contribute to an IRA is if there is earned income in the household. So if it's a single person household, they have to have earned income. That does not include pension income, social security income, rental income. It's earned income. You receive some sort of wage for doing a job. So that's the first rule. You can contribute for 2019 and for 2020 essentially, if you're under 50, you can contribute $6,000. If you're over 50, you can take part in what's called a catch-up, which is an additional $1,000 for a total of $7,000.Nick: So as an example, let say that it's a two-person household. One person is working, one person is not, and the person that's working has a least $14,000 of income. Then as long as they satisfy a couple other rules that we'll talk about, they can make a contribution for themself for the $7,000 and for the spouse for the $7,000. So earned income doesn't have to be for both people. It has to be for one, and then the amount ties in the amount of earned income.Speaker 1: Oh, okay.John: One thing to jump into that, and I've seen some people, not our clients, but others, make some mistakes where they think that, we talked about the two different kinds, traditional and Roth, where they think they can make, let's say, $7,000 into one and $7,000 in the other. It's actually $7,000 total between the two of them.Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. So, okay, so those are good to know. Whenever you're talking about just the contribution, the base set up of them. So let's stick with the traditional IRA and talk about it. What are some key things to think about like as an investment vehicle, as a machine here? These are pre-taxed, right?Nick: Yeah. When we talk about, and this is where the confusion really sets in for many people, when we talk about traditional IRAs, we really like to have conversations with people to make sure that they understand that there can be both a tax deductible or pretax traditional IRA, and there can be non-deductible traditional IRAs. So the logistics are dependent upon, really, a couple of different things whether or not they're active in an employer's plan. Then there are income limits that will determine whether or not somebody can participate in the tax deductible side of a traditional IRA. So that can be a little confusing. We usually have people consult with their tax prepare or and/or their software so that they can fully understand.Nick: But part of the reason that we bring that up is a real-world scenario is, what [inaudible 00:05:17] this client, worked at a company for 10 years, and she contributed to the 401k on a pretax basis. She left the company, rolled her 401k into a rollover IRA, and she's no longer working, but her spouse is working and wants to make IRA contributions for them. But he has a plan at work and makes too much money. They might have to do a non-deductible IRA. So usually what we will tell them to do is to open a second IRA, and when they make the contribution, they're going to account for it on their taxes as they made it. They're not going to deduct it. So we try not to commingle those dollars together. So a nondeductible IRA, we would like you to be separate from a rollover IRA. Otherwise, they have to keep track of the cost basis and their tax basis on nondeductible proportion commingled, and we're really just [inaudible 00:06:16] nightmare.John: Yeah, that's never fun to try and keep track of and never easy. One thing with with the pretax, just give an example of what that means is, let's say someone's taxable income in a given year is $100,000, and doing their taxes, it says, you might want to make a deductible contribution to an IRA. If they were to put $5,000 into the IRA, their taxable income for that given year would be $95,000. So that's where people look at the pretax as a benefit versus a nondeductible. That same example, $100,000 of income, you put $5,000 into a nondeductible IRA, your taxable income stays at that $100,000.Speaker 1: Okay. So what are the factors that determine if it's deductible or not?Nick: The answer is that it's fairly complicated. The first factor is, if we talk about an individual, they're going to look at do you have a plan at work that you're able to contribute to? So that's the first test. The second test is an income test. The tricky part with the income test is that there is a test for your income, and then there's also tests for household income. So usually we revert to the charts and advisors. We work together with the tax preparers to help make sure that we're in compliance with all of the rules. It should be much less complicated than it actually is. But it's really, honestly, a pain. I will say that if you do not have a plan at work that you can contribute to, your ability to contribute in [inaudible 00:07:56] to an IRA, a traditional IRA is much easier.Speaker 1: Okay. Gotcha. All right. So if that's some of the determining factors in there, what are some other important things for us to take away from a traditional IRA standpoint?John: Yeah, one of the biggest benefits to investing in an IRA versus, let's say, outside of it, is and if the account grows tax-deferred. So let's say you had money outside of an IRA and you get some growth on it, I say typically, because nothing's ever absolute. But you can really get it [inaudible 00:08:28] every single year and the gains and the dividends and things like that. Within the IRA shell, going back to that, it just continues to grow tax-deferred. So really help the compounding growth of it.Speaker 1: Okay. So when we're talking about some of these important pieces and the different things with the traditional, what are some other, I know a lot of times we know that it's the 59 and a half, right? All that kind of stuff. Give us some other things to think about just so that we're aware of the gist of it. Now, there was some changes to the Secure Act, which also makes them some of these numbers a little bit different now. The 59 and a half is still there, but now it's gone from 70 and a half to 72, right?John: Yeah. With good things like tax deferral and pre-tax, we do have some nice rules that the IRS/government basically hands down to us. One of them is as far as access to the account, you cannot fully access the account without any penalties until 59 and a half. After you're 59 and a half, you do get access to your account. If you access it before that, there is a 10% penalty on top of a whatever you draw. So that's basically deter to pull out early. There are some special circumstances as far as pulling out before 59 and a half, which could be any type of hardships financially, health wise, and also first time home purchases. We get that quite a bit sometimes where people say, I'm looking to buy a house and I want to go ahead and pull out of my IRA. Can I do so and avoid the penalty? The answer is yes, up to $10,000.John: Some of the changes with the Secure Act where they used to be after 70 and a half, you can no longer contribute to an IRA, even if you have earned income. That's actually gone, which is a nice feature when we're doing planning for clients above 70 and a half, where we can now make a deductible contribution to an IRA, where before we couldn't. Nick's the expert in RMD, so he can jump in and take that.Nick: One of the biggest things to keep in mind from the standpoint of traditional IRAs are that they do have required minimum distributions. The good thing is that those required minimum distributions are now required at age 72 versus 70 and a half. So that makes things a little bit easier for people. And again, that's kind of a big differentiator from the standpoint of a Roth IRA does not have an RMD, a traditional IRA does have an RMD.Speaker 1: Right, and with the RMDs, it's money that basically the government says, we're tired of waiting. Where's our tax revenue? Is there any basic things there just to think about when we're thinking about having to pull this out? Is there a figure attached to it?Nick: I would say we try to give people an idea, because sometimes there's uncertainty on any sort of concept of how much they have to take out. But on average it's about 3.6% in the first year. I would say though, that probably one of the biggest, or I should say one of the most misunderstood portions about it are that the RMD amount that has to come out, it's based on the prior years and balance of all of the pretax accounts. So you may have multiple accounts, you don't have to take an RMD out of each account. You just need to make sure that you take out the amount that is due, and you have the ability to be able to pick which account you want to take that out of, which really, at first thought that can seem more complicated. But if you're working with somebody it helps increase the ability to strategize and ladder your investments and use a bucket strategy where you can use short-term, mid-term, long-term strategies on your money, and have a little bit more flexibility on which account you're going to take money out of when.John: To jump on that, we went through that paycheck series when we talked about having a long-term bucket, and in some strategies that's where by being able to choose what IRA you draw from, you can just let that long-term bucket just continue to build up and not worrying about pulling out of it.Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay. All right. So that gives us a good rundown, I think, through the traditional side of it, and gives us some basic class, if you will, on what these are. Of course, as the guys mentioned, they teach classes all the time. So if there's things you want to learn more about the IRA, the traditional IRA, and how you might be able to be using it or better using it as part of an investment vehicle, then always reach out to the team and have a conversation about that specifically. Because again, we just covered some basics and general things that apply to just about everybody here. But when you want to see how it works for your situation specifically, you always have to have those conversations one-on-one. So reach out to them, let them know if you want to chat about the traditional IRA, or how you can better use the vehicle, or change, or whatever it is that you're looking to do.Speaker 1: (813) 286-7776 is the number you call to have a conversation with them. You simply let them know that you want to come in. They'll get you scheduled and set up for a time that works well for you. That's (813) 286-7776. They are financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth in the Tampa Bay area. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, Stitcher, whatever platform of choice you like to use. You can simply download the app onto your smartphone and search Retirement Planning Redefined on the app for the podcast. Or you could just simply go to their website at pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Guys, thanks for spending a few minutes with me this week talking about IRAs. So let's, next podcast, talk about the Roth side. We'll flip over to the cousins, okay?John: One more thing I want to mention before we go is withdrawing from the accounts of, let's say someone goes to retire above 59 and a half, and it's time to really start using this money as income. So it's just important to understand that whatever amount that you withdraw out of the IRA, assuming everything was pre-tax that went into it, it adds to your taxable income. So for example, if someone's pulling $50,000 out of their IRA, their taxable income goes up by $50,000 in a given year. So we just want to point that out, because as people are putting money into it, we sometimes do get questions of, when I take it out am I actually taxed on this, the answer is yes, if it was pretax put into it.Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, great point. Thanks for bringing that up as well. So I appreciate that. And again, folks, the nice thing about a podcast is you can always pause it, and you can always rewind it, replay it. If you're learning, trying to learn something useful, or get a new nugget of information here, that's a great thing about it. That's also why subscribing is fantastic. You can hear new episodes that come out, as well as go back and check on something that you were thinking about, and that way when you come to have that conversation, you can say, listen, I want to understand more about how withdrawals with my traditional IRA is going to affect me, or whatever your question might be. So again, guys, thanks for your time this week. I'll let you get back to work and we'll talk again soon.John: Thanks.Nick: Thanks.Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time here, folks, on the podcast. Again, go subscribe. We'd appreciate it on Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Nick: Obviously from Seattle, there's many famous people.Cheryl: Ah, yes, from Seattle. We have Jimmy Hendrix.Nick: Jimmy Hendrix. Wow! I love Jimmy Hendrix.Cheryl: Yeah, he is a very famous musician, and we have his statues on the street in Seattle and he's quite the star in Seattle. But he's no longer around unfortunately.Nick: I know. Really unfortunate. What an unfortunate death.Cheryl: Yes.Nick: Any other famous Americans?Cheryl: Well, there is plenty of famous Americans. Somebody in America who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize, and his name as most of everybody listening probably already know is Barack Obama.Nick: Oh, really, I heard that. I read that in the newspaper this morning.Cheryl: Oh did you?Nick: Yeah.Cheryl: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Some people think that he won it too early, too prematurely because he's only been in office. He's the President of the United States. He's been so only for nine months I believe, so it's quite early to give the Nobel Peace Prize for not really having done anything yet, his detractors[恶意批评者，贬低者] say. But his supporters are really, really happy. It's a big prize. It's also a lot of pressure for one man in America to hold, and he's already President of the United States of America so that's a bigger burden on him. He has to hold up to the pressure.Nick: Is there any famous sportspeople? Like, I don't know.Cheryl: Hmm, sportspeople? Well, one person I can think of that's very famous in America recently is Michael Phelps. He is a twenty … a young twenty-something guy who is probably the best swimmer in history.Nick: Oh, Ian Thorpe is.Cheryl: He recently won many, many gold medals in the 2000 Beijing Olympics. He probably won the most I think. He broke the record for having won the most. I believe it was eight medals. Eight gold medals for a swimming competition.Nick: I think Ian Thorpe only won six in one Olympics. Michael Phelps takes it out.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Nick: Obviously from Seattle, there's many famous people.Cheryl: Ah, yes, from Seattle. We have Jimmy Hendrix.Nick: Jimmy Hendrix. Wow! I love Jimmy Hendrix.Cheryl: Yeah, he is a very famous musician, and we have his statues on the street in Seattle and he's quite the star in Seattle. But he's no longer around unfortunately.Nick: I know. Really unfortunate. What an unfortunate death.Cheryl: Yes.Nick: Any other famous Americans?Cheryl: Well, there is plenty of famous Americans. Somebody in America who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize, and his name as most of everybody listening probably already know is Barack Obama.Nick: Oh, really, I heard that. I read that in the newspaper this morning.Cheryl: Oh did you?Nick: Yeah.Cheryl: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Some people think that he won it too early, too prematurely because he's only been in office. He's the President of the United States. He's been so only for nine months I believe, so it's quite early to give the Nobel Peace Prize for not really having done anything yet, his detractors[恶意批评者，贬低者] say. But his supporters are really, really happy. It's a big prize. It's also a lot of pressure for one man in America to hold, and he's already President of the United States of America so that's a bigger burden on him. He has to hold up to the pressure.Nick: Is there any famous sportspeople? Like, I don't know.Cheryl: Hmm, sportspeople? Well, one person I can think of that's very famous in America recently is Michael Phelps. He is a twenty … a young twenty-something guy who is probably the best swimmer in history.Nick: Oh, Ian Thorpe is.Cheryl: He recently won many, many gold medals in the 2000 Beijing Olympics. He probably won the most I think. He broke the record for having won the most. I believe it was eight medals. Eight gold medals for a swimming competition.Nick: I think Ian Thorpe only won six in one Olympics. Michael Phelps takes it out.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Nick: Obviously from Seattle, there's many famous people.Cheryl: Ah, yes, from Seattle. We have Jimmy Hendrix.Nick: Jimmy Hendrix. Wow! I love Jimmy Hendrix.Cheryl: Yeah, he is a very famous musician, and we have his statues on the street in Seattle and he's quite the star in Seattle. But he's no longer around unfortunately.Nick: I know. Really unfortunate. What an unfortunate death.Cheryl: Yes.Nick: Any other famous Americans?Cheryl: Well, there is plenty of famous Americans. Somebody in America who recently won the Nobel Peace Prize, and his name as most of everybody listening probably already know is Barack Obama.Nick: Oh, really, I heard that. I read that in the newspaper this morning.Cheryl: Oh did you?Nick: Yeah.Cheryl: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Some people think that he won it too early, too prematurely because he's only been in office. He's the President of the United States. He's been so only for nine months I believe, so it's quite early to give the Nobel Peace Prize for not really having done anything yet, his detractors[恶意批评者，贬低者] say. But his supporters are really, really happy. It's a big prize. It's also a lot of pressure for one man in America to hold, and he's already President of the United States of America so that's a bigger burden on him. He has to hold up to the pressure.Nick: Is there any famous sportspeople? Like, I don't know.Cheryl: Hmm, sportspeople? Well, one person I can think of that's very famous in America recently is Michael Phelps. He is a twenty … a young twenty-something guy who is probably the best swimmer in history.Nick: Oh, Ian Thorpe is.Cheryl: He recently won many, many gold medals in the 2000 Beijing Olympics. He probably won the most I think. He broke the record for having won the most. I believe it was eight medals. Eight gold medals for a swimming competition.Nick: I think Ian Thorpe only won six in one Olympics. Michael Phelps takes it out.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So Nick, I've never actually been to Australia. Can you tell me about any famous people that live there?Nick: Well, one famous person, his name is Ian Thorpe.Cheryl: Ian Thorpe.Nick: Ian Thorpe. He's a very famous swimmer. He won so many Gold Medals.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: Mm. In maybe four Olympics. I think he won maybe fourteen to twenty gold medals.Cheryl: For swimming?Nick: For swimming yeah. He a free-style swimmer.Cheryl: I've never actually heard of him. How old is he?Nick: He's 24 years old I think. 24 or 25. So he's really young.Cheryl: I see. You guys are really famous for athletics.Nick: Athletics, yeah. There's another famous person by the name of Cathy Freeman.Cheryl: Cathy Freeman.Nick: She's the first aboriginal[土著的；土生土长的] Australian to win a gold medal.Cheryl: Ah, aboriginal Australian.Nick: Yeah, so native Australian.Cheryl: What did she win a gold medal in?Nick: In the 400 meters sprint.Cheryl: Oh, the sprint, so she's a runner.Nick: Yeah, she's a runner, so yeah, she'd been doing it for years and years, but finally she had that big break-through and did very well.Cheryl: Is she the first aboriginal woman to win something, or is she is she the first aboriginal period?Nick: Well, many aboriginal have won events but never really at a world stage so it was really impressive to see her win the even and then she took the aboriginal flag onto the ground and did a lap of honor for the aboriginal Australians.Cheryl: Very nice. What year was that?Nick: That was the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.Cheryl: Ah, perfect.Nick: So in Australia so it was really, really a special moment.Cheryl: Very special since it was held in her own land.Nick: Yeah, exactly and Sydney's a very important place for aboriginals as well.Cheryl: Why is that?Nick: Because that's where the first fleet arrived from England was to Sydney, so that was the first, I suppose, invasion of Australia came through Sydney, so.Cheryl: Oh, yeah, I remember seeing that in the movie "Australia".Nick: Oh, yeah, you would have too. It was in Australia so.Cheryl: Yeah, I guess other country's also have aborigines people. I'm thinking of Taiwan and another island not too far from Australia. Well, I think Taiwan have the aborigines. One really famous aborigines there is Ah Mae. She is a very famous singer. She's been called the Diva of Asia because of her voice. She has a really, really, really talented vocal range. Really high and really low. And she was famous also for being native Taiwanese. The aboriginal Taiwanese.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So Nick, I've never actually been to Australia. Can you tell me about any famous people that live there?Nick: Well, one famous person, his name is Ian Thorpe.Cheryl: Ian Thorpe.Nick: Ian Thorpe. He's a very famous swimmer. He won so many Gold Medals.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: Mm. In maybe four Olympics. I think he won maybe fourteen to twenty gold medals.Cheryl: For swimming?Nick: For swimming yeah. He a free-style swimmer.Cheryl: I've never actually heard of him. How old is he?Nick: He's 24 years old I think. 24 or 25. So he's really young.Cheryl: I see. You guys are really famous for athletics.Nick: Athletics, yeah. There's another famous person by the name of Cathy Freeman.Cheryl: Cathy Freeman.Nick: She's the first aboriginal[土著的；土生土长的] Australian to win a gold medal.Cheryl: Ah, aboriginal Australian.Nick: Yeah, so native Australian.Cheryl: What did she win a gold medal in?Nick: In the 400 meters sprint.Cheryl: Oh, the sprint, so she's a runner.Nick: Yeah, she's a runner, so yeah, she'd been doing it for years and years, but finally she had that big break-through and did very well.Cheryl: Is she the first aboriginal woman to win something, or is she is she the first aboriginal period?Nick: Well, many aboriginal have won events but never really at a world stage so it was really impressive to see her win the even and then she took the aboriginal flag onto the ground and did a lap of honor for the aboriginal Australians.Cheryl: Very nice. What year was that?Nick: That was the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.Cheryl: Ah, perfect.Nick: So in Australia so it was really, really a special moment.Cheryl: Very special since it was held in her own land.Nick: Yeah, exactly and Sydney's a very important place for aboriginals as well.Cheryl: Why is that?Nick: Because that's where the first fleet arrived from England was to Sydney, so that was the first, I suppose, invasion of Australia came through Sydney, so.Cheryl: Oh, yeah, I remember seeing that in the movie "Australia".Nick: Oh, yeah, you would have too. It was in Australia so.Cheryl: Yeah, I guess other country's also have aborigines people. I'm thinking of Taiwan and another island not too far from Australia. Well, I think Taiwan have the aborigines. One really famous aborigines there is Ah Mae. She is a very famous singer. She's been called the Diva of Asia because of her voice. She has a really, really, really talented vocal range. Really high and really low. And she was famous also for being native Taiwanese. The aboriginal Taiwanese.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So Nick, I've never actually been to Australia. Can you tell me about any famous people that live there?Nick: Well, one famous person, his name is Ian Thorpe.Cheryl: Ian Thorpe.Nick: Ian Thorpe. He's a very famous swimmer. He won so many Gold Medals.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: Mm. In maybe four Olympics. I think he won maybe fourteen to twenty gold medals.Cheryl: For swimming?Nick: For swimming yeah. He a free-style swimmer.Cheryl: I've never actually heard of him. How old is he?Nick: He's 24 years old I think. 24 or 25. So he's really young.Cheryl: I see. You guys are really famous for athletics.Nick: Athletics, yeah. There's another famous person by the name of Cathy Freeman.Cheryl: Cathy Freeman.Nick: She's the first aboriginal[土著的；土生土长的] Australian to win a gold medal.Cheryl: Ah, aboriginal Australian.Nick: Yeah, so native Australian.Cheryl: What did she win a gold medal in?Nick: In the 400 meters sprint.Cheryl: Oh, the sprint, so she's a runner.Nick: Yeah, she's a runner, so yeah, she'd been doing it for years and years, but finally she had that big break-through and did very well.Cheryl: Is she the first aboriginal woman to win something, or is she is she the first aboriginal period?Nick: Well, many aboriginal have won events but never really at a world stage so it was really impressive to see her win the even and then she took the aboriginal flag onto the ground and did a lap of honor for the aboriginal Australians.Cheryl: Very nice. What year was that?Nick: That was the 2000 Olympics in Sydney.Cheryl: Ah, perfect.Nick: So in Australia so it was really, really a special moment.Cheryl: Very special since it was held in her own land.Nick: Yeah, exactly and Sydney's a very important place for aboriginals as well.Cheryl: Why is that?Nick: Because that's where the first fleet arrived from England was to Sydney, so that was the first, I suppose, invasion of Australia came through Sydney, so.Cheryl: Oh, yeah, I remember seeing that in the movie "Australia".Nick: Oh, yeah, you would have too. It was in Australia so.Cheryl: Yeah, I guess other country's also have aborigines people. I'm thinking of Taiwan and another island not too far from Australia. Well, I think Taiwan have the aborigines. One really famous aborigines there is Ah Mae. She is a very famous singer. She's been called the Diva of Asia because of her voice. She has a really, really, really talented vocal range. Really high and really low. And she was famous also for being native Taiwanese. The aboriginal Taiwanese.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Nick: So Cheryl, how do you make the first move?Cheryl: Make the first move?Nick: Yeah, when you're interested in somebody and you want to take it further: to become boyfriend and girlfriend.Cheryl: I see. Make the first move! Well, first I think I would try to talk to the guy.Try to approach him and maybe ask him some questions about himself. Questions such as, "Where are you from? What do you like to do? Why are you here? " Questions like that. And then I would see how he would respond.Nick: So would you be physical? Would you maybe be huggy or ... I don't know ..Cheryl: Flirtatious[ /flɝːˈteɪ.ʃəs/,打情罵俏的，輕佻的]?Nick: Flirtatious. Yes.Cheryl: Flirtatious. Well, I think that would depend on whether I have the courage to be flirtatious or actively flirtatious. Maybe, I would use my body language to show him that I'm interested. Usually, when somebody likes a guy, they would probably lean in towards the guy, blink[眨] their eyes more than usual. Smile a lot. But I think if you have an interest in that person, your body should show it naturally and automatically.Nick: Is place important?Cheryl: Place? That is a very, very, very good question. If we are alone, then I think I would be more brave and courageous in making the first move. But if we're a room full of people, I might not be as forward as I would be alone with the person.Nick: So maybe would you make the first move and ask for a date or?Cheryl: Ask for a date? I don't think I have the guts. I don't have the courage to ask for a date the very first time I meet someone. I would probably have to meet them more than once, and get to know them and see if like that person more.Nick: OK, I see.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Nick: So Cheryl, how do you make the first move?Cheryl: Make the first move?Nick: Yeah, when you're interested in somebody and you want to take it further: to become boyfriend and girlfriend.Cheryl: I see. Make the first move! Well, first I think I would try to talk to the guy.Try to approach him and maybe ask him some questions about himself. Questions such as, "Where are you from? What do you like to do? Why are you here? " Questions like that. And then I would see how he would respond.Nick: So would you be physical? Would you maybe be huggy or ... I don't know ..Cheryl: Flirtatious[ /flɝːˈteɪ.ʃəs/,打情罵俏的，輕佻的]?Nick: Flirtatious. Yes.Cheryl: Flirtatious. Well, I think that would depend on whether I have the courage to be flirtatious or actively flirtatious. Maybe, I would use my body language to show him that I'm interested. Usually, when somebody likes a guy, they would probably lean in towards the guy, blink[眨] their eyes more than usual. Smile a lot. But I think if you have an interest in that person, your body should show it naturally and automatically.Nick: Is place important?Cheryl: Place? That is a very, very, very good question. If we are alone, then I think I would be more brave and courageous in making the first move. But if we're a room full of people, I might not be as forward as I would be alone with the person.Nick: So maybe would you make the first move and ask for a date or?Cheryl: Ask for a date? I don't think I have the guts. I don't have the courage to ask for a date the very first time I meet someone. I would probably have to meet them more than once, and get to know them and see if like that person more.Nick: OK, I see.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Nick: So Cheryl, how do you make the first move?Cheryl: Make the first move?Nick: Yeah, when you're interested in somebody and you want to take it further: to become boyfriend and girlfriend.Cheryl: I see. Make the first move! Well, first I think I would try to talk to the guy.Try to approach him and maybe ask him some questions about himself. Questions such as, "Where are you from? What do you like to do? Why are you here? " Questions like that. And then I would see how he would respond.Nick: So would you be physical? Would you maybe be huggy or ... I don't know ..Cheryl: Flirtatious[ /flɝːˈteɪ.ʃəs/,打情罵俏的，輕佻的]?Nick: Flirtatious. Yes.Cheryl: Flirtatious. Well, I think that would depend on whether I have the courage to be flirtatious or actively flirtatious. Maybe, I would use my body language to show him that I'm interested. Usually, when somebody likes a guy, they would probably lean in towards the guy, blink[眨] their eyes more than usual. Smile a lot. But I think if you have an interest in that person, your body should show it naturally and automatically.Nick: Is place important?Cheryl: Place? That is a very, very, very good question. If we are alone, then I think I would be more brave and courageous in making the first move. But if we're a room full of people, I might not be as forward as I would be alone with the person.Nick: So maybe would you make the first move and ask for a date or?Cheryl: Ask for a date? I don't think I have the guts. I don't have the courage to ask for a date the very first time I meet someone. I would probably have to meet them more than once, and get to know them and see if like that person more.Nick: OK, I see.

Today is part 5 of our social security series and we will focus on the survivor benefit option. We will talk about a few situations that can arise and share a couple of client stories that have revolved around this topic.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.comTranscript of Today's Show:----more----Speaker 1: Back here with us for another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined, the podcast with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. Gentlemen, how's it going? Nick, how are you today, my friend?Nick: Doing pretty well. How about yourself?Speaker 1: I'm hanging in there. Not doing too bad. We are into December. Moving along nicely on this. John, how are you doing? You doing all right?John: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. No complaints. It's a getting a little cooler here in Florida, which is nice. It's been been hot, so it's nice to get a little a cool, no more humidity.Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Now, as planners, you guys plan a lot of things, but are you the same way when it comes to holiday shopping? Have you kind of gotten some of this knocked out? We're at about the middle of the month here now in December. So you guys ready to roll for Christmas or are you last minute?John: I'll take that one first. No, I do a lot of Amazon shopping [crosstalk 00:00:49].Speaker 1: Me and you both. But how about you, Nick?Nick: Anything I can do to avoid going to a store, I do, so the majority of my shopping [crosstalk 00:00:59].Speaker 1: I think so many of us are that way, right, which obviously we can see in the death of brick and mortar, for sure. But yeah, absolutely. I agree with you there. Well, hopefully, folks, you're out there getting your shopping done. Maybe you're checking out this podcast while you're driving around doing some shopping or walking around in the malls or whatever the case might be. That is kind of the beauty of podcasting. It's not like traditional radio obviously, so you have more options, and hopefully you're subscribed to the podcast Retirement Planning Redefined. Do it at Apple, Google or Spotify, and a couple others as well, and you can find the links if you want, and podcast episodes on their website at PFGPrivateWealth.com. That's PFGPrivateWealth.com.Speaker 1: All right, part five. I think this is going to probably wrap it up, too, for our series on social security. We're going to talk about survivor benefits. Guys, give us some things to think about here. Survivor benefits are available to children and surviving spouses, correct?John: Yeah, so it is available to children and surviving spouses. For today's session, we're going to focus more on surviving spouses because that comes into play more when we're doing retirement planning.Speaker 1: Okay.John: So we always like to actually joke around with the survivor benefit. Not many people are aware, but they get a nice $255 lump sum death benefit if the spouse were to pass away.Nick: Obviously has not been adjusted for inflation.Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that doesn't cover much of anything, does it?John: No, no it doesn't. But they do get a monthly benefit as survivor and when it comes to planning, that does help out quite a bit when we're talking about strategies and trying to figure out a plan for a survivor. Kind of some rules that go with that. A survivor can actually start drawing social security at age 60 versus 62, which is kind of the normal first spouse, which we discussed last week.Nick: It is important to note that as a reminder, even though they're eligible to draw at 60, there are still the income tests from the standpoint of reductions. So if that person is working, then it may not make a whole lot of sense to get that early.John: Yeah. What Nick's referencing, we talked about the earnings penalty if you start taking social security before your full retirement age. That does still apply age 60, so if you're still working, most likely that will wipe out any social security benefit you're going to get as a survivor.John: Some other things to consider, and I'll kind of give some examples of this. Survivor benefit is not available if someone remarries before age 60, okay, unless of course that marriage ends. So we've had situations where we were planning for clients and we were talking about doing some survivor strategies and they actually ... Let's just give an example. They were 57 and were considering getting married and actually deferred their marriage until age 61 to be safe, which I don't think the spouse is too happy with us on that because it deferred the marriage, but it made sense because we actually get some pretty easy strategies, which we'll talk about later, to maximize the social security.Nick: For the widow to the eligible for those survivor benefits, they had to have been married for at least nine months. There's a caveat to that where the death was an accident, that could come into play. So essentially, that's pretty lenient, but it is important to understand the nine month rule as well.John: Yeah. And we stress a lot on just understanding what your situation is. Just kind of give you an example of that, I had a client that thought she's eligible for social security because she was married, but he passed away when they were within eight months of marriage. And she was shocked [inaudible 00:04:23] the whole time, let's say the last seven years, she was planning on it and then didn't qualify for it. So it was shocking, and unfortunately for her, she was hitting 62 so it made a big difference to her overall plan.Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay. So good information there. Surviving spouse's benefit is based on what?Nick: So essentially kind of the caveat to this is whether or not people have been collecting. So if both spouses are receiving their benefits and there is death, then the surviving spouse receives the higher of the two.John: Not both.Nick: Correct. Not both, which some people will be surprised about how that works. But it's important to understand that they receive the higher of the two, not both. And one of the big factors that gets calculated into the firm calculation of the amount of money that the widow will receive takes into account when the deceased spouse originally claimed their benefit. And it gets a little bit confusing, quite frankly, for most people, but it factors in essentially whether or not they took it before or after their full retirement age. So John will walk us through an example on that. But it is important to understand how this works.John: Yeah. Again, we like to do everything in the realm of planning. So this is where doing the social security maximization strategy is very important. Social security is a big part of someone's retirement income. So you want to make sure that you're making the best decisions available to you, because the last thing you is to look back 10 years ago, it's like, "Oh, I wish I did this. I could have had X amount of dollars or really been enjoying my [inaudible 00:06:05] a little bit more."John: So just going to touch on an example of that. We'll call them Jack and Jill. We talked about some survivor strategies last week, but let's say Jack's up for retirement benefits, 2,400. Doesn't take it [inaudible 00:06:20] 70. Basically, Jill can jump on and actually take ... Let's increase it to 2,976 increases. That will be her new basically benefit for social security, so she gets a nice increase and that's where we talked about really trying to protect the spouse and giving them more income for life. And if she tries to draw early, let's say she takes it at 62, which anytime you draw early, you get reduction of benefit or a reduction based off of now the higher amount that he deferred, which is a nice little caveat. We have to really do some planning for a spouse.Nick: And one of the things too from a comparison standpoint is when we discuss the spousal benefits and how the spousal benefits do not grow past full retirement age, the death benefits does, or the widow benefit, survivor benefit does grow past [inaudible 00:07:15] age, so another reason why that's really a big factor.John: Yeah. And one thing that we'll always do, if we're incorporating strategies, you always typically want to delay the higher benefit. So if you're looking at an opportunity to take a widow's benefit or my own, rule of thumb, and everyone's different, but rule of thumb is defer the higher ones. I'll give my family as an example. My father-in-law, his wife passed away young and basically age 60, he was able to actually draw her social security benefit at 60, which a reduced amount. Most of his income is from real estate and investment income, so an earnings penalty didn't apply to him. So the plan is he's taking the widow benefit at 60 and he's deferring his, and then at full retirement age, he's going to switch over to his and get his full retirement benefit. So from 60 to 66, he was actually able to get some type of benefit and then at 66, will jump to his own and he gets the full amount.Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's some good strategies, some good things to think about, good information here when we're talking about these survivor benefits. So a couple of final key points or key takeaways, guys, just to think about?John: Things to consider is a reminder that basically when the person passes away, their social security benefits stop. And if the surviving spouse is going to take one, they'll take either their own or the deceased spouse, whatever one's higher, just making sure that it's important to plan and make sure the strategy is best for you based on your situation. Social security ... This is everything, not just survivors ... it's very confusing, and there's a lot of different things you can do, so if you're working with an advisor, just make sure that they have the capabilities to stress test your decisions, to make sure you're making the correct decision based on your situation and not your neighbors or as Nick likes to say, up north, his clients, they've talked to their plumber.Nick: Yeah. Everybody likes to get an opinion from somebody else. We will talk about opinions. But so anyways, I think the biggest kind of overlying thing, and we talk about it a lot, but we can't emphasize it enough, and even when we do overemphasize it, people still ask, but this is not a decision to be made in a vacuum. So many other factors tie into this decision.Nick: And even when we plan ... As an example, I was walking somebody through a plan this week, and they are three or four years out from retirement, and even though we have a strategy set up for social security in the plan on what we plan to do from a baseline standpoint, they asked and I really had to emphasize that realistically this decision doesn't really get made until maybe three, six months before their retirement.Nick: So we may plan for a certain strategy for four or five years, but the importance of planning and updating your plan every single year cannot be understated, because especially with social security, if we're in the midst of a recession, if we're in the midst of a 2008, we're not going to have somebody take a bunch of money out of their nest egg even though over the last five years we planned to do that. We're probably going to have at least one of them take social security, protect the value of the nest egg, give it time to bounce back and then adjust accordingly. The planning is via kind of a living, breathing thing and we always have to adapt and adjust.Speaker 1: Nope, I think that's a great point. We've said that many times here on the podcast that you've got to have a plan and then you have to realize that that plan needs to evolve much like your life's going to. A lot of times we kind of get a collection of things. We have some investments, we have some insurance vehicles, we think about social security. Maybe you're lucky enough to have a pension and you say, "Okay. Well, I've got this collection of things. I'm good to go. I have a retirement plan." No, you have a collection of things. So pulling them all together in a full retirement plan is really important.Speaker 1: That's what John and Nick do every day at PFG Private Wealth, so give them a call if you've got questions or concerns. Get on the calendar at 813-286-7776. That's 813-286-7776. Don't forget to go to the website, PFGPrivateWealth.com. You can always subscribe to the podcast and get new episodes, check out past episodes, things of that nature on Apple or Google or Spotify. So check them out online as well@pfgprivatewealth.com and also share the podcast with folks that you think might benefit from it as well.Speaker 1: This has been Retirement Planning Redefined. Thanks so much for staying tuned into the show. John. Nick, thanks for your time, as always. I hope you have a happy and safe holiday and we'll talk actually I think in 2020.Nick: Sounds good.John: All right.Speaker 1: You guys-Nick: Thank you.Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Take care and enjoy the holidays, everybody, and we'll see you next time right here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, Nick, let's talk about touching and holding hands and physical touch with your significant other. Do you and your partner hold hands when you go out in the street?Nick: We hold hands all the time. Initially, we ... when we first went out, holding hands was the first thing we did, and then progressively moved on from there to kissing, but holding hands was certainly the first thing we did in our relationship.Cheryl: Do you remember when you first tried to hold her hand or did she try to hold your hand first?Nick: I made the first move. We were sitting on the couch watching a movie, and I was getting a bit nervous, and I couldn't quite concentrate on the movie, so I moved my hand over to hers, and she reciprocated[/rɪˈsɪp.rə.keɪt/,回報，報答], and it moved on from there, so ...Cheryl: You know, that's funny that you bring that up because on of the most common moves that is made fun of in movies as well is when the guy takes a big yawn, a fake yawn, and he opens his arms wide and places it around the girl's shoulder, and thus embraces her, but he had to do it because he yawned.Nick: My experience, like my first hug was like that as well, so it was just a bit of an excuse for us reaching for something, and then suddenly my hand went around, and she didn't mind so.Cheryl: That's very good. And what about kissing? Do you kiss a lot in public, in the streets?Nick: Rarely in public, cause we find it makes other people uncomfortable.Cheryl: Yeah, that's true. I find that when I see couples kissing, or making out in public, I usually think to myself, Why don't you get a room?Nick: Yeah, you don't want to see that. You just want to be having a conversation with them or ... you don't want them to be constantly distracted.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, Nick, let's talk about touching and holding hands and physical touch with your significant other. Do you and your partner hold hands when you go out in the street?Nick: We hold hands all the time. Initially, we ... when we first went out, holding hands was the first thing we did, and then progressively moved on from there to kissing, but holding hands was certainly the first thing we did in our relationship.Cheryl: Do you remember when you first tried to hold her hand or did she try to hold your hand first?Nick: I made the first move. We were sitting on the couch watching a movie, and I was getting a bit nervous, and I couldn't quite concentrate on the movie, so I moved my hand over to hers, and she reciprocated[/rɪˈsɪp.rə.keɪt/,回報，報答], and it moved on from there, so ...Cheryl: You know, that's funny that you bring that up because on of the most common moves that is made fun of in movies as well is when the guy takes a big yawn, a fake yawn, and he opens his arms wide and places it around the girl's shoulder, and thus embraces her, but he had to do it because he yawned.Nick: My experience, like my first hug was like that as well, so it was just a bit of an excuse for us reaching for something, and then suddenly my hand went around, and she didn't mind so.Cheryl: That's very good. And what about kissing? Do you kiss a lot in public, in the streets?Nick: Rarely in public, cause we find it makes other people uncomfortable.Cheryl: Yeah, that's true. I find that when I see couples kissing, or making out in public, I usually think to myself, Why don't you get a room?Nick: Yeah, you don't want to see that. You just want to be having a conversation with them or ... you don't want them to be constantly distracted.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, Nick, let's talk about touching and holding hands and physical touch with your significant other. Do you and your partner hold hands when you go out in the street?Nick: We hold hands all the time. Initially, we ... when we first went out, holding hands was the first thing we did, and then progressively moved on from there to kissing, but holding hands was certainly the first thing we did in our relationship.Cheryl: Do you remember when you first tried to hold her hand or did she try to hold your hand first?Nick: I made the first move. We were sitting on the couch watching a movie, and I was getting a bit nervous, and I couldn't quite concentrate on the movie, so I moved my hand over to hers, and she reciprocated[/rɪˈsɪp.rə.keɪt/,回報，報答], and it moved on from there, so ...Cheryl: You know, that's funny that you bring that up because on of the most common moves that is made fun of in movies as well is when the guy takes a big yawn, a fake yawn, and he opens his arms wide and places it around the girl's shoulder, and thus embraces her, but he had to do it because he yawned.Nick: My experience, like my first hug was like that as well, so it was just a bit of an excuse for us reaching for something, and then suddenly my hand went around, and she didn't mind so.Cheryl: That's very good. And what about kissing? Do you kiss a lot in public, in the streets?Nick: Rarely in public, cause we find it makes other people uncomfortable.Cheryl: Yeah, that's true. I find that when I see couples kissing, or making out in public, I usually think to myself, Why don't you get a room?Nick: Yeah, you don't want to see that. You just want to be having a conversation with them or ... you don't want them to be constantly distracted.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, who are some of the people who are fighting to protect these trees besides you as an environmental scientist?Nick: Well, in Tasmania, the first green political party was developed, so yeah, they obviously want to protect the forests a lot, and have big protests, tie themselves to trees. Sit up in trees to protect the trees.Cheryl: People actually still do that? Tie themselves to trees?Nick: Oh, everyday in Tasmania.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: It's a big issue. A very big issue.Cheryl: That's interesting. I once heard of a girl who lived in a tree for a month because she wanted to stop the deforestation company or people from taking down that tree, so she lived up there and she had people bring her supplies but she never came down.Nick: That happens in Tasmania as well. There's people today which are up in trees, maybe up to fifty which permanently live up in trees.Cheryl: Wow!Nick: Yeah, so. I don't know how they do it.Cheryl: That's kind of crazy ... So Nick, from the companies point of view, playing the devil's advocate here, I think they provide jobs for all the people who are working to make trees into paper. What do you think they have to say about that?Nick: Well, it's true, they do provide jobs, and some cities, some small towns do rely on logging industry to provide jobs and support the shops in the place, but ...Cheryl: But!Nick: But! Yeah. So tourism is a very big industry in Tasmania, and maybe the logging industry takes away tourists jobs as well, because it makes certain areas not useful for tourism anymore, not very pretty.Cheryl: Yeah, your right. If the whole forest is missing, I guess nobody would really want to go and look at anything.Nick: Yeah, there're some really beautiful spots in Tasmania which have been many tarnished a little by the logging industry.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, who are some of the people who are fighting to protect these trees besides you as an environmental scientist?Nick: Well, in Tasmania, the first green political party was developed, so yeah, they obviously want to protect the forests a lot, and have big protests, tie themselves to trees. Sit up in trees to protect the trees.Cheryl: People actually still do that? Tie themselves to trees?Nick: Oh, everyday in Tasmania.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: It's a big issue. A very big issue.Cheryl: That's interesting. I once heard of a girl who lived in a tree for a month because she wanted to stop the deforestation company or people from taking down that tree, so she lived up there and she had people bring her supplies but she never came down.Nick: That happens in Tasmania as well. There's people today which are up in trees, maybe up to fifty which permanently live up in trees.Cheryl: Wow!Nick: Yeah, so. I don't know how they do it.Cheryl: That's kind of crazy ... So Nick, from the companies point of view, playing the devil's advocate here, I think they provide jobs for all the people who are working to make trees into paper. What do you think they have to say about that?Nick: Well, it's true, they do provide jobs, and some cities, some small towns do rely on logging industry to provide jobs and support the shops in the place, but ...Cheryl: But!Nick: But! Yeah. So tourism is a very big industry in Tasmania, and maybe the logging industry takes away tourists jobs as well, because it makes certain areas not useful for tourism anymore, not very pretty.Cheryl: Yeah, your right. If the whole forest is missing, I guess nobody would really want to go and look at anything.Nick: Yeah, there're some really beautiful spots in Tasmania which have been many tarnished a little by the logging industry.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Cheryl: So, who are some of the people who are fighting to protect these trees besides you as an environmental scientist?Nick: Well, in Tasmania, the first green political party was developed, so yeah, they obviously want to protect the forests a lot, and have big protests, tie themselves to trees. Sit up in trees to protect the trees.Cheryl: People actually still do that? Tie themselves to trees?Nick: Oh, everyday in Tasmania.Cheryl: Oh, really?Nick: It's a big issue. A very big issue.Cheryl: That's interesting. I once heard of a girl who lived in a tree for a month because she wanted to stop the deforestation company or people from taking down that tree, so she lived up there and she had people bring her supplies but she never came down.Nick: That happens in Tasmania as well. There's people today which are up in trees, maybe up to fifty which permanently live up in trees.Cheryl: Wow!Nick: Yeah, so. I don't know how they do it.Cheryl: That's kind of crazy ... So Nick, from the companies point of view, playing the devil's advocate here, I think they provide jobs for all the people who are working to make trees into paper. What do you think they have to say about that?Nick: Well, it's true, they do provide jobs, and some cities, some small towns do rely on logging industry to provide jobs and support the shops in the place, but ...Cheryl: But!Nick: But! Yeah. So tourism is a very big industry in Tasmania, and maybe the logging industry takes away tourists jobs as well, because it makes certain areas not useful for tourism anymore, not very pretty.Cheryl: Yeah, your right. If the whole forest is missing, I guess nobody would really want to go and look at anything.Nick: Yeah, there're some really beautiful spots in Tasmania which have been many tarnished a little by the logging industry.

Today's show is part 4 of our social security discussion. Our topic today is spousal benefit options. John and Nick will walk us through the ins and outs of this facet of social security and offer their advice.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.comTranscript of Today's Show:----more----Mark: Hey everybody, welcome into another edition of Retirement Planning Redefined. Thanks as always for checking out and tuning into the podcast with John and Nick, financial advisors at PFG Private wealth. Gents, what's going on? John, I'll start with you. How are you buddy?John: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you doing Mark?Mark: I'm hanging in there. How's the little one's doing? I know they, you had some cold running through the house. Everybody getting better?John: They're getting much better, which is good. No more getting coughed in my face a lot less this week, so yeah, that's a good thing.Mark: And Nick, how are you my friend?Nick: Good, good. Looking forward to the holidays coming up here and all kinds of good food.Mark: Oh yeah, yeah. Are you a Thanksgiving kind of guy?Nick: I have become more so after my brother started deep frying turkeys a couple of years ago.Mark: Okay, good. So no YouTube videos of that now, so just be careful. We don't want to see any flying turkeys.Nick: He's got it all under control.Mark: Fantastic. Awesome. Yeah. At the time of this podcast taping it is just about Thanksgiving. It's just about here on us. And so we're going to continue on with our a multi-part series we've been doing about Social Security. So hopefully you've been checking these out and if you have, great, if you have not, make sure you go to the podcast page, you can find it on their website at pfgprivatewealth.com that's P F G private wealth.com and you'll find the podcast page. You can subscribe to it on Apple or Google or Spotify. I think there's other couple of choices there as well.Mark: So make sure you do, a lot of good content that we're discussing. This is a multi-part series all around Social Security and part four here is going to be on Social Security, spousal benefits, not deep frying turkeys that'll come another day, but a Social Security spousal benefits. So guys, let's get into this and just kind of break down some information for us on, I guess, what we're entitled to or how this whole thing kind of works.Nick: Sure. So just kind of a recap on, you know, how eligibility wears for Social Security. Essentially somebody needs to work, you know, for 40 quarters, pay payroll taxes for those 40 quarters and they become eligible for their own benefit. However, you know, one of the common questions that we may get is one spouse stayed at home, one spouse worked. The spouse that stayed at home didn't get their 40 quarters. And they want to know are they eligible for any sort of benefit.Nick: So it's important to understand that, you know, as long as the couple is married, the person that has not qualified for the benefit is eligible for a spousal benefit. And that spousal benefit is essentially calculated by looking at the full retirement amount benefit for the spouse that was working and multiplying by 50%. So, that's the starting line. That's kind of how you understand how they calculate that. And the reason that they did create that was understanding that households, you know, it's not always cut and dry from the standpoint of one spouse is working. There's obviously value to the other spouse staying home, helping to raise a family and they want to protect that spouse in situations like divorce or other sorts of scenarios by providing them with this kind of caveat for how the benefits work.Mark: Okay. And yeah, so the simple way to break it down. So give us some more, John, give us some more things to think about here when we're talking about the eligibility of spouses, maybe some rules, things of that nature.John: Yeah. So basically, some of the rules before you can collect a spousal benefit, the primary worker must have filed. So wait until the spouse actually draws and then you can go ahead and take your spousal benefit. Spouses can actually start taking it at age 62, that's the soonest that you can start taking.Nick: So a kind of a good example of that is, so let's say, Mr. Smith has been the worker and Mrs. Smith stayed at home with the family and raised a family. And a couple of years ago, two years ago, she started working, you know, so she's not eligible for her own benefit. So Mr. Smith is going to continue to work and Mrs. Smith is trying to figure out, "Hey, I'm also 62, can I file for benefits?" So the answer is not until Mr. Smith essentially retires and fights for his benefit. So that's where the restrictions on the ages kind of come to play.Nick: And when John referred to that primary worker must filed for their benefits, there used to be some other rules in play where you can kind of navigate around, but they really cut down and things are a lot more restricted than they used to be.John: Yeah. And just to kind of give some numbers to that, let's say Mr Smith's full retirement benefit was 2,400, Mrs Smith's spousal benefit would be, as Nick mentioned, 50% of that sort of 1200. And again, so her spousal benefit is based off of his full retirement amount benefit and not what he actually gets. So example of that would be, you know, when she goes to draw, let's say if he'd started taking early and he get his full 2,400, she's not penalize by that. Her 50% is still the 1200, assuming she draws at her full retirement age.John: If she decides to take early at 62 she will actually have a reduction of her spousal benefit.Nick: It is important for people to understand that, you know, there's the dates on when people start to receive the benefits are calculated, or factored in I should say, for each person. Though it factored in potentially when Mr. Smith files and starts collecting and it's also factored in when Mrs. Smith files and starts collecting. And so there's a lot of different variations on how that works. And because there are some different variations, we typically recommend to people that, you know, I was helping you kind of walk through the different, let's test out different scenarios and figure which one makes the most sense because there are so many factors that go into the decision.Nick: We understand a lot of people like to just, you know, they want a cut and dry answer and unfortunately or fortunately, the positive to there not being a cut and dry answer is that, you know, oftentimes they can be strategic and find something that works better for them and if it were cut and dry. But it does take a factoring in a lot of other things to make the right decision.John: Yeah. At first the answers to certain questions are, it depends.Mark: Yeah, that's the case a lot of times I think.John: One question we actually get a lot and we talked about in the last sessions was, you know, if you draw Social Security after full retirement age, you actually get a percent increase in your benefit. That does not work for spousal benefits. So if the spouse didn't want to take or they want to defer their spousal benefit, they do not get the 8% increase on it.Nick: Yeah. So, we have seen that mistake happen, you know, the primary person has decided, "Hey, let's wait to collect the benefit" because they are under the assumption that not only will their benefit grow by 8%, but the spousal benefit that their spouse will take will grow, but that's not the case. Only their benefit grows, the spousal benefit does not. So when we run kind of break even calculations, it can often makes sense to just have them start collecting so that they can get both of them.John: Yeah. And then, you know, it's important understand also for to be eligible for spousal benefits, you have to be married at least one year. So can't be a just getting married and after six months started drawing on Social Security for a spouse.Mark: They're not going to just make it too easy for you anyway. All right, so that's some good rules. That's some good basic information there. What are some strategies? Give us a few things to think about when it comes to the spousal benefit options.John: Yeah. And like we said, everyone's situation is different. It really depends and it's important to customize what works for you. And I think we offered in the last session, but if anyone wants it, we actually are working on a Social Security machination strategy, which we're happy to do so. But one thing that we'll do with some spousal strategies, depending on the situation, we might have one spouse claim early and the other spouse, depending on the situation, you know example of that would be, let's say we have a high earner and they want to protect the spouse in case of a premature death. So we might go ahead and have the high earner, who's Social Security benefit is higher, actually delay theirs. So, if they were to pass away prematurely, that spouse can actually jump onto a higher amount, high Social Security benefit, which is nice strategy to protect the surviving spouse.John: I've used that a couple of times when there's an age gap on the spouses or if I'm there, you know, sometimes clients will come in and they're just concerned saying, "Hey, I'm really concerned something could happen to me. Is my spouse going to be okay?" We'll go ahead and implement some strategies like that.Nick: Another time where that can be used is if the primary earner has worked at in an occupation where they're eligible for a pension and they're going to receive a pension and they, you know, kind of through planning or whatever it may be. Or like the example of John mentioned where on of the spouses is maybe quite a bit younger, so when the other spouse is quite a bit younger, it pulls down the pension amount that the primary person would receive. So to offset that a little bit, we might recommend, "Well, hey, instead of doing a hundred percent survivor benefit on the pension, let's do a 50% so that you can have a higher pay out. But to offset that, what we'll do is we'll have you wait to take Social Security until 70." So the pension amount that the spouse would receive would be less, but we can offset that waiting on Social Security a little bit and still have more income coming in the household.Mark: Gotcha. Okay. All right. So a couple of different strategies there to consider and I think a lot of times people sometimes don't plan ahead for that part. It's like we're sitting there talking about different, when you're getting your retirement plan done, I think sometimes we look at it overall and say, "Well, we want to turn Social Security on as soon as we can and yada, yada yada." Instead of saying, "Okay, how can we most maximize our Social Security for both of us in an overall inclusive retirement plan?"Mark: So it's certainly important to do. And as John mentioned, you know, they can run that Social Security maximization if you have some questions on that. If you want to get that done or have a chat with them, give them a call at (813) 286-7776 that's (813) 286-7776 and you can also check them out online at pfgprivatewealth.com.Mark: As I mentioned before, there are financial advisors here in the Tampa Bay area, so if you have some questions about that, again, as always when you're listening to this show or any other show before you take any action, always check with a qualified professional about your specific situation because everybody's, it can be so different, so make sure you have that chat.Mark: All right guys, I think in the interest of time we can probably squeeze in a couple more things. Can you give us a few things to think about on divorced spousal situations?John: Yeah, so it is important for people to understand that they are still eligible for a spousal benefit if they were married for 10 years and they are not remarried. So a scenario that we may see with that is they were previously married to a high earner, maybe they worked a lower paying job, they were married for 25 years, became divorced, they went back to work to cover expenses, et cetera. They may be in a relationship currently, but they're not officially married and we kind of go through calculations and we determined that, "Hey, the spousal benefit that you could receive from you former spouse would be higher than the benefit that you would receive on your own and or higher than the benefit that you would receive if you were to marry your current partner." And obviously a lot of other factors go into that.John: But, from a purely financial decision, that could work out really well because again, you cannot collect that spousal benefit from a former spouse if you are remarried. We have had questions along the lines of, you know, "Hey, I was married twice. Both were over 10 years. Am I restricted to choose just the most recent one?" And the answer is no, you can pick the higher. We had a nice young lady one time that had four different ten year marriages and she asked if she could add them all up together and unfortunately you can't, it's just the higher.Nick: But she had a lot of options.John: Yeah. It's good to have options.Mark: Like window shopping apparently.John: So, yeah. So those are a couple of things to keep in mind.Nick: Yeah. And one question we get a lot with divorced clients, they say, "How soon can I draw on the ex-spouse's Social Security?" And really you can draw on an ex-spouse once that ex-spouse hits age 62. Unlike a kind of a normal situation, when we wait until the spouse draws Social Security. They put this rule in really to protect the ex spouse because we've seen scenarios where certain people might delay drawing to intentionally hurt the other spouse and so they can't draw on them. So basically the rule is once the ex-spouse hits over 62, you can actually start drawing on the spousal benefits for divorcees.John: Yeah. It does not matter whether or not they're collecting. And also some people are happy about this, some people are not. But when you do get that benefit from a former spouse, again it does not affect their own benefit. There is no negative impact to doing that to them.Mark: They don't even know about it.Nick: They would have no idea. And it actually wouldn't affect any new spouse for somebody. So we get that question quite a bit where it says, "Hey, an ex-spouse draws on my Social Security. Does that affect my new wife or husband?" The answer is no.Mark: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's interesting on the time period on that, it's funny that you kind of brought that up. My mother, who's 78, actually was given that information and did a refile with the Social Security for her first husband. She was married twice as well. And so yes, she was able to do that and they hadn't been married in like 40 years, but they were married over 10 years. So they were like, "Yep, that's something you can do." So I was like, "Okay, well knock yourself out."Mark: So yeah, it's interesting. There's definitely some few things to consider in there. Different kinds of a spousal benefit options, divorce spousal benefit options. So again, a lot of it comes down to having a conversation about your specific situation with your advisor when it comes to Social Security, because there are a lot of things in Social Security obviously, which is why we're on a four part series, going to be a five part series actually around this.Mark: So with that said, I think we're going to depart this week on the program. I'll say John and Nick, thanks for your time. As always, we appreciate it. Folks, make sure you reach out to them, give them a call if you've got some questions at (813) 286-7776. (813) 286-7776, again, that number to call. And as always, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Retirement Planning Redefined. You can find it on Apple, Google or Spotify.Mark: You can also just find it on their website at pfgprivatewealth.com and as I said at the beginning of this, that it was prior to Thanksgiving when we were taping this. Now we'll actually air it after Thanksgiving. So we certainly hope that everybody had a great holiday season. And we'll see you for more of our conversation around Social Security through the month of December, right here on Retirement Planning Redefined. For John, for Nick, we'll see you next time.

This is part 3 of our social security conversation. This week we talk about what aspects you should consider before you decide to start taking social security. Everybody's situation is different, but this may help you get a better idea on when you should start reaping your benefits.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.comTranscript of Today's Show:----more----Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in to a another edition of the Retirement Planning - Redefined Podcast. As always, I'm here with John and Nick, Financial Advisors at PFG Private Wealth. Nick, what's going on buddy? How are you this week?Nick: Doing pretty well. How about yourself?Speaker 1: I'm hanging in there, not doing too bad. Are you guys still sweltering down there? We are here in North Carolina. It's been pretty dang hot the last few days, and it's in October, so we'll see how this plays out. You guys still burning up?John: Yeah, we had two days of a little less humidity.Speaker 1: Uh-huh (affirmative).John: And then it just came right back.Nick: Yeah, yeah, the humidity dropped off and it kind of was a little bit of a tease like taking the dog out in the morning. It was like, "Okay, this is not bad." Especially even in the shade during the day. But came back with a vengeance the last few days. So hopefully we kind of get back to the... The heat, I don't mind as much as the humidity, but winters.Speaker 1: Yeah. When you got to use a butter knife to cut the air, because it's so thick with moisture and whatnot. Now that was Nick's voice. The other voice is John's. John, how you doing buddy?John: Great.Speaker 1: Hey, well that's good. Oh great. I like that. Well, very good. Well good. Then you're going to be ready to roll on this conversation. It's part three of our ongoing chat about social security. And we covered a few things the past couple of weeks. If you've been listening to us, we talked some mechanics, we've talked taxation, we've talked funding, some overviews of some of those things there. And if you did not listen, well go sign up at the website. It doesn't cost you anything to subscribe to the podcast. So go to pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com. That's their webpage. You'll be able to find lots of things about the team, as well as the podcast. And subscribe to that on Google or Apple or whatever you'd like.Speaker 1: You can also just call them if you ever have questions, or get tripped up and you want to have a conversation. And you should before you take any action. You should always check with a qualified professional like John and Nick. They are financial advisors. (813)286-7776 is the number to reach them at. (813)286-7776. But again, we're talking social security. We covered a lot of those things. So now let's talk strategy a little bit, gents. Big question that always pops up, and that's usually number one for most people is when should we apply for benefits?Nick: Yeah, so this is always a good one. My dad actually just hit his official social security birthday. He just turned 62, and of course the thing that he wants to do the most more than anything in the world, is start taking income.Speaker 1: Turn it on. Right?Nick: And so the first question that we have to anybody that hits 62, and is interested in potentially starting to take their income is, "Do you have any other earned income?" So the social security system is set up where if you have earned income, so earned income specifically on an individual basis, then there is an earnings test on how much you're making. And if you decide you want to take your social security benefit, whether or not there's going to be a reduction. So what we mean that is again, using my dad as an example, he's a retired fireman, he has a small business, so he has some income from the business, but he has a pension.Nick: So pension income does not count towards this income test. It's only the earned income that he gets from his business. At the same time, the income that my mom makes as a nurse, does not count towards his test for his social security. So understanding that it's based upon an individual's income, and that it's an individual's earned income, that limit is about $18,000, 18 to $19,000. It changes a year-to-year and it's been inflating up.Nick: So for every dollar that you earn above that amount, they start to reduce your social security benefit by 50 cents. So it's about a 50% reduction. So what we'll tell people is, a lot of these other factors start to come into play on whether or not they need the money, what they're going to do with the money. And we'll kind of get into some of those details a little bit more. But understanding that there is a penalty, or a reduction in the benefit that you receive if you take it before your full retirement age. And understanding how they calculate that's really, really important.Nick: So a really basic example is, if we say that somebody is going to earn $24,000 of income, so they're going to be about 5,000 over the limit, and there's going to be a reduction in their social security. That reduction isn't nearly as bad as somebody that's maybe earning 40,000, where they're almost going to zero out their social security benefits. And since they took it early, there is a permanent reduction anyways. So it does become kind of a more complicated response and an answer, but it does help to get people thinking and understanding and kind of strategizing on what makes the most sense for them.John: So to jump in here, in the year you reach your full retirement age actually that penalty goes away. So basically, let's say your full retirement age is 67, and you turn 67 in June, once you hit your birthday, you can earn as much as you want. And from that point moving forward, there's no penalty on any earned income for that individual. And kind of back to what Nick was saying, very important that people do understand that it's based on the individual's income and not household. Because I have run into some scenarios where some clients previous to us got some bad advice, and they actually did not take the social security, because an advisor told them it was based on household income. So there was a couple of years that they wanted to take it and they didn't, because they got bad advice.Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not good. So yeah, you want to make sure-John: No, that's why Nick kind of stressed that.Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about 62 as a magic number, first. If you go as soon as you can, Nick, you mentioned your dad. A lot of people do that. They're like, "I'm going to run right down and turn it on as soon as I can." That might be the right decision for you, but it may not, because you could be looking at a reduction in your benefit. Correct?John: Yeah. So I'll use my parents' example here.Speaker 1: Oh go for it.John: So once they hit 62 they were done. They were done working, they wanted to retire. And we had the conversation of whether they should take it or not. And we decided that it was best for them to go ahead and take it at 62. So the negative to that is you do get a reduction of benefit, which could be anywhere from 70 to 75%, which was okay for them, because they actually had some pension income.John: So when we were doing their plan, we looked at it and said, "Hey, we're going to take a little bit of a hit in your guaranteed income from social security." But they had some pension income, which helped out, which is why we kind of decided for them that it was okay to take. And again, everyone's situation's different, but just understand that when you do take at 62, you get a reduction of benefit, and that reduction of benefit is permanent.Nick: So then kind of going from there, that range between 62, which is when you're first eligible, up to your full retirement age, which is actually determined by the year that you were born. So for somebody that's in their early sixties now, their full retirement age is most likely 66. For somebody that might be in the thirties and forties, it's 67 or later.Nick: But once you hit that full retirement age and your statement that you receive on an annual basis, or when you log in to see it, it does tell you, that's kind of the point at which you can receive your full benefit amount. There are no earnings tests anymore, there are way less rules, is kind of the easiest way to think about it. However, let's say that your situation allows you, maybe you have a younger spouse, and your younger spouse is still continuing to work. Their income still is enough to support the household and you don't need additional income. You can let your benefit continue to grow, and it grows by 8% simple interest. And that number caps out at age 70.Nick: So once you get to age 70, there is absolutely no point in waiting any longer, because your benefit does not grow at all. So an important thing to kind of take into consideration as far as that goes, is we're going to have a separate session on spousal benefits and widow benefits. However, spousal benefits do not grow with those 8% increases. Spousal benefits do maximize at the full retirement age. So again, we'll kind of get into more detail on that a little bit later on. But just wanted to make sure that we took that into consideration. And one of the most common questions that we'll get, "Should I take it at 62 should I take it up for retirement age? What about in-between?"Nick: So there isn't a hard difference between 62 and full retirement age. The benefit will continue to increase. So we've used my dad as an example a few times. So although he just turned 62, we looked out over the next year, and we realized that the need to take the benefit this year didn't necessarily make a whole lot of sense, but we're going to revisit it next year. So this is something that you can kind of reevaluate on a year-by-year basis, or really even a month-by-month basis. Essentially what happens is that benefit grows by about a half percent per month. So that can does continue to grow. So it's not like if you wait between 62 and 63 you've been penalized or anything like that. It is something that does continue to grow.Speaker 1: Yeah.John: So one of the main questions that we get when deciding is really the break even point. So deciding, "Hey, if I take at 62, I'll have this amount of money versus full retirement age." And the break even is usually mid to late seventies, let's just say 76 to 77 years old. Looking at it in a vacuum, without any other parts, that's when people determine, "Hey, if I waited until 60, my full retirement age, once I hit 77 it would've been better to wait for that."John: But one thing to consider is that, just looking at a vacuum, really we're missing a lot of key points here. So a reason to take at 62 could be health. So as far as, I'll use myself as an example, because I'm currently injured with my back. But in my twenties, I could do a lot more than I can in my thirties. So someone might want to take it at 62, so they can enjoy between 62 and 75, and have more money to go on vacation. So those are things that you really need to consider besides the break even point.Nick: Yeah, I would say from a strictly planning standpoint. So if we take out some of the lifestyle decisions that factor into this, if we take a look at it from the standpoint of strictly finances, there tends to be, dependent upon people's situation, there tends to be kind of a magic number for the nest egg. So in other words, dependent upon how much people need to take out of their nest egg, if waiting on social security forces somebody to take an unreasonable or an unsustainable, which are all right from their nest egg, we're probably going to go ahead and have them take the social security.Nick: Because maintaining that nest egg for as long as possible is really important. And if that number isn't there, if they just for whatever reason haven't been able to save, or get to that number that's right for their specific situation, a lot of times taking that social security is going to alleviate the pressure on the nest egg. It's going to help us sustain through maybe some negative points of the market, and allow them to live the lifestyle that they want to live in that early five to eight year first portion of retirement. So that's a huge driver from a financial standpoint, to kind of make the overall plan work.Nick: Things like life expectancy come into play, although that can be a little bit tricky from, we'll kind of refer to that as the crystal ball planning. Where we try to plan for a long period of time not maybe what happened with your parents or things like that. So there are a lot of different factors but that helps kind of bullet point some of the key things to consider when trying to decide on when to apply.John: Yeah, no I just kind of jumped in with something that just popped into my head about something to consider where, client situation, where they had a really good strong social security benefit and pensions, but they really didn't have a lot of liquidity. So not a lot of assets.John: So strategy that we're using for them, is we're actually taking the social security once they hit the full retirement age, because they are still working. And instead of letting that benefit build up, we're actually saving that into some type of retirement plan. So when they do fully retire, in this situation it's age 70, they'll actually have some type of nest egg that isn't just income. It's actually a nest egg they can pull on. So we are taking the benefit, full retirement age, but we're actually saving it to provide some liquidity in retirement.Nick: Yeah. And so maybe a real world example of that is we work with a decent amount of local faculty at some of the local universities, and their plans have structures where they can save money into the different retirement plans. So in that scenario, maybe they have a pension, they're going to have a good pension when they retire, they have social security benefits. It's going to cover their expenses. But because of those things they save, let's just call it maybe like $200,000 into their nest egg.Nick: So what we can do is turn on that social security, and bump up the savings that they're putting into their 403(b), or some other sort of employer-based retirement account, offset the taxes from an income tax standpoint as they're taking that. Because again, going back, that benefit's going to be taxable or at least includable in their taxes, offset that, build that up, try to really bump up their nest egg by another hundred, hundred plus thousand dollars a year. And give them a little bit more peace of mind when they retire.Speaker 1: Well, really, really good information here on this podcast edition of Retirement Planning - Redefined. We've been talking about really kind of the strategy of taking social security. This is part three of our ongoing series of social security. When should you apply for benefits? A lot of good information covered. The great thing about a podcast is if you're going through and you're listening to it and you didn't quite catch it, or you're not quite following, you can always back up and listen to it again. Unlike a radio show or something where you just kind of catch it in passing. And especially easier if you subscribe to them.Speaker 1: So make sure you go ahead and subscribe to the podcast at pfgprivatewealth.com. That is pfgprivatewealth.com. But if social security is tripping you up, do not feel alone. It definitely can be that way for a lot of folks. Reach out and call John and Nick and have a conversation with them. Get yourself on the calendar at (813)286-7776. That's their number if you'd like to reach out to them. (813)286-7776, serving you here in the Tampa Bay Area, at PFG Private Wealth, where John and Nick are financial advisors.Speaker 1: And with that we're going to say goodbye this week for the podcast. Tune in next time, when we're going to continue on with social security, and talk about spousal and widow benefits in part four of our ongoing social security series here on Retirement Planning - Redefined with John and Nick, financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth. Boys, I'll see you next time. Thanks so much for being here and for everybody listening we'll talk to you next time here on the podcast.

Listen to Nick (2020) talk about his internship in accounting at Honda R&D this past summer. Transcript: Stephanie: Hi there, you're listening to Gear Up, the Duke Career Center student produced podcast showcasing real student summer internship experiences. Today we're talking to Nick who had an internship in accounting this summer. Okay, introduce yourself. Nick: Sure, my name is Nick Landis. I am a senior from Louisville, Kentucky and I am studying economics. Stephanie: So what did you do this past summer? Nick: This past summer, I was a managerial accounting student associate at Honda R and D Americas Incorporated in Raymond, Ohio. Stephanie: And how did you find that position? Nick: I thought it was very interesting. I had a lot of fun doing the work and I thought that the place I was working at was very fascinating, and I was learning new things every day. Stephanie: And what were you doing specifically day to day? Nick: Sure, so I had quite a variety of roles. One of the things that I did was that, I regularly helped track the budget of the facility that we were running. Nick: It had a budget that was in the tens of the tens of millions of dollars. And one of my main tasks was figuring out where we could streamline the budget, and figure out ways to run the company more efficiently. In that role, I would also spend a lot of time meeting with people who helps manage other departments within the facility. And I also got to look at the various products that were being developed by Honda at this location. And I also spent some time developing this project to help streamline the disposal process for some of our test vehicles. And I think that I had a lot of really good positive impact for doing that. Stephanie: That’s a lot of responsibility for an intern. Nick: Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit of it was unexpected, but I feel like I had a lot of support, and I feel like my management had a lot of faith in my ability. And I think that's really important to work for people who have faith in you and don't try to just baby you. That's that's very important to me. Stephanie: Did you find the work interesting? Nick: Mostly, I'd say, I think that you can ask anybody who works in accounting of any kind and they'll tell you that sometimes the work can get a little dry and it did. But I will say that in the grand scheme of things, I really thought that the work I was doing was interesting and important in terms of the impact that I was having on the company. And I actually felt like I had a purpose for being there. And I thought that that was the most important thing to me. Stephanie: Do you feel like your coursework or things that you do at Duke prepared you at all for it? Nick: I'd say that it helped me out a little bit. I spent a lot of time taking finance based economics electives the past couple of years and they definitely helped me to understand some of the concepts that I was working with especially classes that involved accounting and viewing financial statements. Those were really helpful. One thing I will say, though, was that no amount of coursework can prepare you for having a real job. There are just certain things that you have to pick up when you're working. And I think that that goes for any job. But I think that in terms of the academic skills that I had, I think that I was reasonably prepared. Stephanie: And where did you find this job? Like, did you find it that networking or see it on a job site? Nick: I think that I saw on a job site. I was very, very proactive in trying to find internships wherever I could, whether it be on CareerConnections or just by Googling. So I honestly don't remember where I found it. I want to say that I found it on the job site, but it does kind of escape me at the moment. Stephanie: And you just applied and and happened to get it? Nick: Yes, I sent in an application. They sent back a couple questionnaires. I did a couple of phone screens and

We continue our discussion on social security this week. Today's show will focus on how you can integrate social security in your retirement plan and some variables you may need to look out for when doing so.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com----more----Transcript of today's show:Speaker 1: Thanks for coming back in with us. As we talk here on retirement planning redefined, we always appreciate you joining us here on the podcast. With John and Nick, financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth, and we're going to continue our multi-part series on social security. We talked about a few things last go around on the podcast, and we're going to continue that on this time as well. John, how you doing buddy? How's things going?John: I'm doing good. How are you doing?Speaker 1: I'm hanging in there. Doing pretty well. I think I'm doing about the same as Nick. At the time as podcast, our teams did not fare well this past weekend in football. How are you doing, Nick?Nick: Good. While we lost, I'm still cautiously optimistic.Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That's good.Nick: I'm okay.Speaker 1: That's how fans do it, right? You still stay optimistic even when they break your heart over and over. We'll save that for another time, but I do want to continue on our conversation about social security. We had some good chat the last time. We has some good conversation about things to consider, so we're going to continue this piece on. As we teased the last time, and if you didn't listen to it, make sure you go and check out the prior episode. You can go to PFGPrivateWealth.com. That is PFGPrivateWealth.com, and you can subscribe to the podcast, Retirement Planning Redefined, you can subscribe to that and listen to past episodes as well as future episodes. Let's get into this part. We're going to talk about how to integrate, really, social security into your retirement plan. So what's a few steps to start and start thinking about when it comes to the integration of it?John: Yeah, you know, one thing we wanted to touch on with social security is just how important it is in someone's retirement plan. A lot of people don't realize it really equates to almost 30 to 40% of their retirement income, and a big factor of why it's important, it's actually inflation protected. On average, historically, social security is average about 2.6%. So it's really nice to have a set of income that's actually going to be going up with cost of living adjustments. It makes a big difference.John: Just kind of give a quick example. Let's say if you're starting social security now, it's $2,000 per month. Within 20 years at 2.6%, that'll be about $3,340 or so, which is a big jump in income. It's important to understand how valuable that is in how much that really does help out someone's retirement plan.Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about some taxation and some benefits there. Nick, what are some things to think about when it comes to the benefits of the taxation?Nick: From the standpoint of I guess making sure that people understand how social security works. From conversations that we've had, a lot of people are under the impression that because social security was funded via the payroll taxes that we talked about in the last session, they're under the impression that there's not going to be any sort of income tax when you start to receive it.Speaker 1: Right.Nick: As many people do know, that is incorrect. The formula that they use to calculate how much of the benefit is taxable to somebody is a little bit convoluted. Essentially what they do is they look at a modified adjusted gross income number, which includes your adjusted gross income, half of the amount that you receive from social security, and then a tax exempt interest, aka, interest from municipal bonds. They add that together, and then they really kind of look at a chart. And then dependent upon if you are single or married, it's going to determine what percentage of your benefit is going to be includable in your taxable income.Nick: If we were to say that your benefit amount was 2,000 a month, and your combined, that income formula that we kind of talked about, puts your income over about $38,000. 85% of your benefit, or about 1,700 of the 2,000, is going to be added to the other income sources that you have to determine how much you're going to pay in tax. We just like to make sure that people understand that although that benefit is coming in, oftentimes they look at the gross amount, and they don't necessarily understand that, hey, once you're on Medicare, your Medicare, it gets deducted out of that. You're probably going to want to have some sort of federal income tax withheld from it. That benefits starts to drop down. So that's something that we always make sure we focus on and make sure that people understand.John: When we're doing planning, and people find out that the social security is taxed, they are not happy.Nick: Yeah, and sometimes we get asked when did that happen or how did that happen? It really happened in the 80s, during the Reagan administration, is when it took place. Realistically, for most of the people that we're working with, they've been in the working world for 30 years, and that's been in place. It's not something that's necessarily very new or anything like that. There's really minimal ways that you can actually reduce the impact on taxes. Realistically, the only other sort of income that's not includable in that is any withdrawals that you'll take out of a Roth IRA. So dependent upon their overall situation, and dependent upon the structure of what they're going to have to take out, required minimum distributions and those sorts of things, we may look at different strategies, like converting traditional money to Roth money, and determining if that makes sense.Nick: I'll say this, that people do tend to hate taxes, and I know that sounds kind of funny, but the point being is that sometimes they'll try to make irrational decisions just to try to deal with maybe a tax issue without figuring out that hey, you know, they may only be paying an effective tax rate of 12 or 13% on their income, which in the scheme of things is really low. And so making sure that they understand that, and that they don't need to make rash decisions with how they structure their decisions is an important kind of thing. Social security just kind of factors in, it's important for people to understand how it works and how it's taxed. It's more of just kind of an FYI sort of thing.Speaker 1: Well, really good information here. We're talking about how to integrate social security in a retirement plan. John, did you have another point about the taxes here on this?John: Yeah, so one thing that we do in planning is we really start to map out someone's taxes into retirement, and a big chunk of that is their required minimum distribution age 70 and a half. If we can see how much taxes they're going to pay, we can really make some strategies for someone's social security based on that. But again, the plan kind of gives you the roadmap so you can make the right decision based on your situation.Nick: And to kind of add on to that. More specifically, when we map that out and we look at it, what we're looking to see is when those required minimum distributions are due at 70 and a half, because people, by default, like to put them off as long as they can. Sometimes it will actually make sense to start taking money out of their IRAs first and wait on social security. Whereas the default for most people is take social security first, and then take out the money for the required minimum distributions. Structuring those decisions together as one is a really important way that you can kind of add in some tax planning into your overall retirement planning.Speaker 1: All right, so we're going to continue our conversation on the next podcast as well, part three if you will, about social security. But before we get out of here for this particular episode. Any other thoughts about some of the things we've covered today, gents?John: Yeah, so it's kind of going back to what we first talked about with social security being important in someone's plan and inflation. The reason that is is when you have a portion of your retirement income that's guaranteed, it really helps us kind of map out how we should invest or basically implement a distribution strategy from the rest of the assets. So having that base of, let's say, 30,000 guaranteed income coming in, that's going up with cost of living, helps us really map out the rest of the investments and how we should strategize behind that.Nick: I think another good tool or, you know... Because as an example, my father has a pension, he's a retired fireman, and I have to constantly remind my mother what kind of the equivalent of a lump sum of dollars would be if he would have a lump sum versus the amount that he gets every single month through the pension. If we're saying on average the social security benefit amount for somebody that's been working for their full life, and waits until their full retirement age to take it, is around 2,000 per month. Let's say it's a dual family household, so we're talking about 4,000 per year. That's really the equivalent of a safe withdrawal rate and a million bucks.Nick: One of the super common questions that people ask us is how much can I take out of my retirement account each year? The safe withdrawal rates around 4%, so 4% on a million, $40,000 a year. 2,000 a month times two is closer to $48,000 a year. So we're talking about one plus million bucks. If that money was sitting in an account at least generating income, even though you couldn't invade principle, that sometimes gives people some perspective on how valuable that social security income really is to them in our overall planning.Speaker 1: Well again, we are talking about social security. We've gone through a couple of pieces the last couple of podcasts. We're going to do another one coming up in just a couple of weeks here, and continue on with our conversation with John and Nick, financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth, around social security. If you have questions and concerns, and you probably do because social security can be quite confusing to a lot of us who don't deal with this every day. Well then reach out to the guys, give them a call and let him know, because they do obviously work in this arena every day. Having a conversation, getting a second opinion if you've already got one, maybe you have no plan at all, or maybe you've had no conversations around it,. Well, just reach out and let them know that you'd like to talk.Speaker 1: 813-286-7776 is how you can reach out to them if you'd like. here in the Tampa Bay area. 813-286-7776. And of course, you can also just go to the website, PFGPrivateWealth.com. That is PFGPrivateWealth.com. Check out the team on the website there as well. You can also subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you choose, Apple or Google, or so on and so forth, and listen to past episodes as well as future episodes. So guys, I'm going to say bye this week for you, and we'll be back next time here on the podcast, so make sure you tune in for more Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick from PFG Private Wealth. We'll see you next time.

Today is the start of a multiple part series on social security. We'll be discussing topics such as the state of the fund and reforms that are aimed to help the program and more, so tune in and catch up on social security.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com----more----Transcript of today's show:Mark: Hey gang, welcome into another edition of retirement planning redefined with the boys from PFG Private Wealth Financial Advisors, John and Nick, once again here on the program with me as we talk about investing, finance and retirement. Always go to the website and check them out at pfgprivatewealth.com that is pfgprivatewealth.com. While you're there, subscribe to the podcast. Give us a like and check us out and all that good stuff. Subscribe to it for past episodes as well as future episodes. And of course anytime you hear anything, you've got a question or concern, give them a call before you take any action. 813-286-7776 is the number to call. If you hear a useful nugget of information and you want to learn more, again, reach out to them at (813)-286-7776. Guys, I hope you're doing well this week. Nick, what's going on man?Nick: Yeah, we're doing well. Staying busy for sure. Today what we wanted to do is kick off a multi session on social security.Mark: Okay. Cool.Nick: And we just want to let everybody know. We know that some of the people that'll be listening to this will have become familiar with us through either the more comprehensive classes that we put on around town or via a financial wellness workshop. And social security has been one of the hot topics for a long time and it continues to be as it is more in the news with the different pressures and some of the funding issues and those sorts of things. And then obviously with everybody, so many people and so many baby boomers getting closer to retirement, although we will be getting into it fairly comprehensively in this session, we just wanted to make sure that everybody knew that if they were interested in having us come in, whether it's some sort of association or an employer based kind of program, we like to do the lunch and learns or some sort of financial wellness workshop.Nick: And we've got about a 50 minute session that we'll do on social security. And from the feedback that we've gotten, it's been one of the most positively embraced sessions that we've done. So we just want to let people know that if they wanted a more comprehensive overview on this or they thought it might be beneficial for their employer or fellow employees or coworkers, that that's something that's available.Mark: Awesome. Yeah. When we get into that we'll have this multi-part series on the podcast regarding social security. And again, as Nick mentioned, if you want to talk with them, (813)-286-7776, (813)-286-7776.Mark: John, how are you man? You doing all right?John: I'm doing great. How are you doing?Mark: I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking. And you know, Nick got us all set up there for the conversation. So what do you say we dive into it? How does it work? I mean, what's the crux of the whole social security situation here we're looking at?Nick: Most people are obviously familiar with the fact that they are eligible for social security and they pay into the system, but not a lot of people are familiar with how it all works and ties together. We always like to start off in explaining people how the program is funded. A lot of people have seen on their pay stub where it might say FICA and they're not really quite sure what that is. But out of that 7.62 that comes out of your paycheck for those FICA tax is 6.2% of that is for social security. And one of the things that we have found over the years is that many people are not familiar with the fact that the employer also pays in 6.2%. Some people have this idea that the program is fully funded by the government and really it's fully funded by them and their employer.Nick: Letting them know that about 12.5% of their income each year is going into the program towards them is something that is important for them to understand. And for some of the higher income earners, they may have noticed at a certain point of the year that their paycheck gets a little bit bigger. And usually that's because payroll tax is capped, so people no longer pay in on earnings over ... In 2019 on earnings over $132,900. And as we talk a little bit about some of the things that'll change over time with the program, one of the things that's in the news the most is that cap and removing that cap so that it's similar to Medicare where people will pay on, no matter what their earnings are, they will continue to pay into the system.John: That cap's actually been going up aggressively. You know, I think a few years ago it was $112 Nick, and I think now they've jumped it up to one $132.Nick: Yeah, yeah. They've definitely been indexing it up faster than inflation, that's for sure.Mark: Yeah. And depending on what happens in the elections coming up next year, you know, depending on who gets in, there's conversations that that 6.2 could be raised as well. So if you're still working, so that could go up substantially as well.Mark: How much can somebody expect guys? I imagine that's a big question that always comes up is, what are we looking at? I know you can get your estimates, obviously, from the website. They don't even send those little papers out anymore I don't think. They used to send them out every year, then it went to every five years. I'm not sure if they even still do that.John: They do occasionally, and I'm not sure the exact how often, but I know that from our classes we're starting to have guests say, yeah they're getting the statements. But it's based off of your earnings record. And one thing that's important to understand, it's actually your highest 35 years. So a lot of people when I first started working, I think the first year I was 18 I made like $12,000.Mark: That's pretty good for 18.John: You're [crosstalk 00:05:20]. Yeah, exactly. Your highest earning years are really later in life, once you hit your 50s and 60s. So that's important to understand if someone's thinking about retiring early to make sure that they look on the statement and see, Hey, what years do I have that are significant in here? Because if I stop working my last seven years, you know the benefit that I'm seeing on my statement's actually going to be less.John: Because when you get your statement, what it shows if you continue to work up until that age, not if you stopped. So that's important. Another thing we tell our clients and anyone that comes to our classes is to make sure that you look at it, see if there's any zeros in there. Because if you do have zeros in your highest 35 that will actually bring down your benefit and that's something you may want to consider maybe working a couple of extra years to make sure that you maximize your social security retirement benefit as best you can.John: And you're right, you can go on social security.gov and pull up your statement. They'll ask you a lot of funny questions. What was the color of your first car? Most likely most people get locked out unfortunately, but it's good to go check it out if you haven't done that in awhile.Nick: Yeah. Another thing to just make sure that people know from the standpoint of those highest 35 years is that's in relation to the cap. And so you know that cap that we mentioned earlier, that $132,900, it's in relation to that. Just because there may have been a period of time, we've seen it in some circumstances, where maybe somebody took some time off to stay home with the kids and then they're returning to work and before they took time off they were making a higher income. And although, from a pure dollar standpoint they may be making more dollars now as in relation to the cap, that may not necessarily be the case.Nick: That highest 35 earning years is in relation to that cap. And with how social security date change the mailing out of the [inaudible 00:07:04] and that sort of thing, we absolutely recommend that people, although it can be a little bit of a pain from the process, to really get logged into the site, make sure they understand how to access that statement, make sure they understand how to read that statement. Especially from the standpoint of people that we have that are self employed. We have them double check their statements to make sure that their income is being correctly recorded because they may be paying in their self employment tax, which is essentially payroll tax. Making sure that that's recorded properly so they're going to get the benefits that they're entitled to down the road.Mark: Yeah. Now guys, I've heard through the years that if you see those zeros on there like John mentioned that that's not really on the social security to fix that. That falls back on you in trying to follow up possibly with past and employers. Like if you know you earned something in a given year and you're seeing a zero, is that still how it is? Is that the way that it goes? Do you need to talk with the social security office about that or do you need to track down that past employer?John: You do need to reach out to them and Nick's, I believe, grandfather did that and Nick can share that story.Mark: Oh, all right.Nick: And this was years ago, so I don't know any details on it, but my grandfather was from Cuba and so he had a natural distrust for the government. And when he was a professor at the University of Rochester and when he went to retire and file for social security, he did not agree with the amount. And due to his non-trusting nature, he happened to have every pay stub that he ever had in the basement. And so he was able to figure that out. Luckily now we have things that are more electronic and we do have people try to keep some sort of record and haven't had anybody recently deal with that in any sort of deeper way.Mark: That's good.Nick: But usually a tax return will help. And tax returns are one of the things that we have people ... We've got a portal for clients and we have them upload those tax returns so that they can be a really good resource down the road in case there's any issues.Mark: Well that's cool. Yeah. I mean I'm 48 and I think about myself and I think God, if I had to go back and figure out who I worked for when I was 20 and what they owed me or whatever, or what I paid in, I don't know where I'd start. So that was awesome that your grandfather actually kept all that stuff. Because I know that for a lot of people that would be definitely a challenge. But that's just something I thought about and I wanted to bring that up and get your guys' opinion on that.Mark: So if you're talking about things that are really important to people, obviously a big question for boomers, and I'm sure you get this at the wellness events that you do and just in general is the constant question of the health of the fund. Is it going to be around?John: Yeah, that is a 100% the main question we get at the workshops and also when we're doing planning for clients. But as it states today there's actually a surplus and the fund is actually growing. There's roughly $2.9 trillion in it and when you say trillion it doesn't really in reality mean much, we have no idea what that actually equates to.Mark: It sounds like a lot.John: [crosstalk 00:09:56] Surplus, it is a lot. But the surplus is about $3 billion a year between money that's coming into it through the payroll taxes and also the interest earned on the balance. Just to kind of give some people some numbers because they're always asking. In 2023, 2024 that surplus actually will stop. So it's actually going to be going into a deficit and then in 2034 the fund's basically exhausted and then it's just going to be paid through basically money coming in through payroll taxes and then the money's going to come out. An then in 2034 when that happens, based on the numbers, the estimates, is looking like there's going to be a 21% reduction of benefits. So you're going to get 79% of the benefit owed to you. And again, that's if no changes happen, which we'll we're going to go into shortly. Nick will start it up where we're talking about some of the reforms that already have been happening and that will continue to happen.Nick: And we do tend to ... Some of these will probably be repeated throughout the series about social security. And earlier I mentioned the increase in max earnings, removing that cap. That's probably one of the lowest hanging fruit from the standpoint of people getting on board with making higher income earners continue to pay into the system. Right now, the earliest retirement age that somebody can collect benefits from is 62. So that's an age, especially with the longevity of people's lives and people just living longer overall, that 62 will probably start to increase. I'm sure people will be grandfathered in at a certain age or certain, your worth and before it will be grandfathered in, but-Mark: It seems like that's a really-Nick: John and I suspect that our-Mark: Yeah, that seems like the easiest one too for a lot of things. Right? Just push it back for people under a certain age, like 50 and under or something, just push it back.Nick: Yeah. And social security ... The trickiest thing and probably one of the biggest reasons that not much has been done with it is because, frankly politicians are worried about not getting voted back into office, so-Mark: Yeah, it's a political poker chip for sure.Nick: They [inaudible 00:11:53] can down the road and try not to tick people off at least to a certain extent. So raising that initial retirement age from 62 probably upwards of ... They'll probably ease it in, but I wouldn't be surprised if John and I, our initial retirement age is closer to 65 or higher.Nick: They've talked about doing means testing from the standpoint of if people have a certain amount of income on that they wouldn't collect their social security. I think that one will probably be a little bit more difficult because usually that's income focused and honestly there's a lot of ways around that.Nick: But another thing would be that cost of living adjustment, and that's been tinkered with a little bit really over the last decade as inflation stayed low for a little while and interest rates were really low. But that could be something that they adjust. But realistically what we think will be the easiest things to do will be to take up on the payroll tax, potentially have employers put in a slightly larger percentage than the actual employee. It's something that they can do. Increasing that cap or the earning cap or removing the cap in general, and bumping back that initial retirement age, are all things that we think will be a big deal.Nick: The other thing could be the, really the increases, the percentage increases that social security provides for people that defer taking their benefits. So if they wait, any year after full retirement age, there's an 8% increase. And so that's something that'll probably drop as well.Nick: The good news is that this is pretty actuarial and really all you have to do is math to figure it out. It's just going to take people being willing, people being the government, being willing to make the changes.John: Yeah. And they've already, in 2015 they actually closed some of the loopholes which we've been seeing a lot of in planning some strategies that people were using are going away, which helped the program out. They're already doing some things. And the big thing that ... One of the things Nick talked about was the cost of living adjustments. To me that's one of the ones we need to keep an eye on because when we're doing planning, it really helps out the plan when you have some type of guaranteed income that actually goes up with inflation.John: Historically, social security has gone up about 2.6%. It's been low over the last five or six years due to inflation, but that's actually a pretty nice benefit when you look at what you start with at let's say 66 and what you end up with that age 85. It's a big amount. When you look over that 20 year period.Nick: Probably the one people want to fight for the most to maintain from the standpoint of anybody that's likes to be active or have a vested interest in the topic, that cost of living adjustment's really, really important for them.Mark: Absolutely. Well, let's take that point and segue into an offer for you guys. If you're listening and you want a free maximization strategy and the social security guide to anyone who emails in, just email john@pfgprivatewealth.com that's john@pfgprivatewealth.com. Again to get that free maximization strategy and social security guide here on the program.Mark: And I that's going to do it for us this week on the podcast guys. Really good information to start this week, talking about social security here on the show. We're going to continue on, as Nick mentioned earlier on, and do a multi-part series on this next time here on the program. We're going to talk about integrating social security into your retirement plan, making that part of the plan and some things to look for and think about in regards to that.Mark: You've been listening to retirement planning redefined with John and Nick financial advisors at PFG Private Wealth. Again, that's PFG Private Wealth and that you can find them online at pfgprivatewealth.com and subscribe to the podcast while you're there. Don't forget to email John if you'd like to get that social security maximization or give him a call at (813)-286-7776. If you've got some questions about your own social security, get on the horn with them. Come in for a consultation and a conversation. (813)-286-7776. This has been retirement planning redefined for John and Nick. I'm Mark and we'll see you next time.

*increase team volume, secret mlm hacks, teach your downlines, the power of the internet   Listen to a recent Secret MLM Hacks course member, Nick Bradshaw, as he tells us how is team volume nearly 20X'd after using these modern MLM recruiting principles...   INSIDE SECRET MLM HACKS   This is an interview that I've done with one of my good, Nick Bradshaw. He's got his own show but he wouldn't tell me what it is. You should track him down and ask him.   We have about 500 people in the Secret MLM Hacks program. For the next few episodes, I'm actually going to share with you guys some of the interviews I've been doing with people who are in the program and share what's been happening.   Nick  has almost 20X-ed his team volume since using the Secret MLM Hacks methods, which is crazy. I didn't know it was that much! I thought it was just doubling, not 20X!   He's going to walk through and talk about how he's been using this stuff and teaching the same strategies to his downline, which is ultimately what's been my goal in creating this stuff.   It's not so that everybody has to join Steve Larsen. It's so that you can learn how to do this stuff on your own and then teach your downlines and explode stuff.   A lot of MLMs are refusing to be influenced from the top down on the strategies that I'm teaching. I'm just telling you… This is the landscape of the atmosphere that we're in around here.   A lot of big MLMs are not wanting to take on some of the strategies like the internet, which is ridiculous. It's because they don't know it themselves. They don't know how to train or teach on it.   The strategy I've been teaching is actually to go from the bottom up. It's for the little guy.   HOW TO TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES   Secret MLM Hacks has been focused on training from the ground up. I don't care what MLM in you're in. That's why I'm not here pitching you guys all the time. I'll drop every once in a while what I'm in if you guys are interested, but that's not the purpose of it.   The purpose of it is for me to go and influence MLM from the bottom up. To hand tools to people inside of MLMs from the bottom up who can go reteach it to their people and explode past their uplines.   That's been the point and it's been working. We've had a lot more MLMs reaching out, asking things like, "Would you come build funnels for us?" I'm like, "Where were you when I was talking about it earlier?" It's flipped the whole table on its head.   I have a very special guest today. Somebody I have been watching and seeing everything that has been going on... And I've been impressed.   There’s not many people in MLM who use the power of the internet. I've got a very special guest for you today. It's very easy to see who is in MLM online because there aren't that many. When I first saw other people doing it I was like, “Oh my gosh I'm not alone!” I was so excited about it.   I want to introduce you to and welcome Nick Bradshaw.   SECRET MLM HACKS INTERVIEW WITH NICK BRADSHAW   Steve: Hey man. Thank you so much for being on here.   Nick: Dude it's been absolutely my pleasure. It really really is.   Steve: It's gonna be awesome I'm pumped for it. Just so people understand more about what you do, tell me when you first got into MLM?   Nick: I've been in the MLM game myself about two and a half years. Funny enough, my wife is actually the one who started all of this and I jumped in halfway through. It's really skyrocketed and taken off from there.   My wife's been doing this for about five years. And during that time I was actually a car salesman. I was working 60 - 80 hour workweeks, every single week.   When I started in car sales I had one kid and then next thing I know, I had two kids. I blinked three times and next thing you know I'm sitting next to a six and four year old kid. I'm like, “Where did all the time go?”   I was burnt out on it. I had set all these goals and I had reached the goals. I had worked my way up the corporate ladder so I could provide for my family and let my wife be a stay at home wife.   I got to that roadblock that said, “Where do I draw the line of how much time I'm spending at work versus how much time I'm spending at home?”   From there it was like, “Alright, well what do I do? How do I remedy this, how do I fix it?”   Steve: Something's gotta change, right? We've gotta shake it up a bit.   WHAT IS INSIDE SECRET MLM HACKS?   Nick: How do I be a better father to my kids? How do I be the father that I want to be rather than just the provider and someone that my kids don't even know? I was literally leaving for work before they woke up and I was coming home two hours after they'd already been in bed.   That's where my journey started with MLM. My answer to all of that was, “I'm gonna jump on board and help my wife build this business”.   And so that's what I started doing. I've got all these sales skills. I've been doing this hardcore sales stuff for five years now. My wife was relatively well. She was a silver rank in her company which equated to $2,500 a month.   So I said, “Okay, if I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna do all of this, I’m gonna quit cold turkey”.   Steve: You just up and left?   Nick: Yeah, just up and left. I said, “I'm done”.   Here's the crazy part… We moved from Indianapolis to Austin, Texas two months afterwards. We completely restarted. Hit the reset button.     I've got all these sales skills and one of the things that I see really lacking inside of the MLM world was people knowing how to sell. So that was the problem that I said I can fix.   I jumped into our team trainings and I started doing all of these things. I started teaching them menu selling (which is a car world term) but it's just narrowing down the options.   Instead of giving them this huge, 16 page spreadsheet of all of these things that they can buy, you're gonna narrow it down and say, “Okay you have this option, this option or this option.”   HOW TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH SECRET MLM HACKS   I started doing that and in four months, our team volume jumped from $30,000 a month to $80,000 a month.   Steve: Wow, big jump.   Nick: Yeah big jump. Just within a couple of months of just getting people to understand how the sales process actually works and implementing those skills.   But then we really came to a plateau. You can only do so much to the customer base that you already have.   Steve: Right. You need some more people eventually.   Nick: Eventually you need more people. That was the brick wall that I ran into at that point. I was like “Okay, so how do I do this?”   Marketing, duh.   If sales pushes and marketing pulls, I need to pull more people into this business.   But I had no idea how to do it because I'm not a marketer. I've been doing sales my entire life. And honestly, that's when I found Steve Larsen. I started listening to Secret MLM Hacks and I signed up to ClickFunnels.   From there… I failed. Miserably. On my face.   Steve: Sure. We pretty much all do the first few rounds.   Nick: I jumped in and I'm like, “Oh this is gonna be awesome! I'm listening to you but I'm not really hearing you”, you know what I mean?   Steve: I always laugh when people are like, “I've heard this training before”, and I'm like, “No it takes a few rounds, go again.”   Nick: I jumped in and started building these funnels and I'm like, “This is going to be awesome” and then I hit launch...   And I launch that first funnel and nothing. It was just crickets and I'm like, “Alright, back to the drawing board”.   INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH CLICKFUNNELS   I paused my ClickFunnels account because I realized that I didn’t have the skills that I need to be successful doing what I'm doing.   Steve: Right.   Nick: That's when I really jumped into it and I remember the time specifically. I was at a leadership retreat which is an invite only retreat for a company. I had just gotten Expert Secrets and Dot Com Secrets. I bought the black book with the funnel hacker's cookbook and all of that. And I brought it with me.   I'm sitting in our hotel room and I started reading Expert Secrets and I didn't put it down. I went all through the night and the next morning. When it was time to get up and go to the retreat I was still sitting there with my book on page 240 or something like that.   All of these things just started hitting me and it was like the fire was lit. I started really consuming and I even started hacking Secret MLM Hacks.   Steve:  I noticed that's what you were doing. I watch a lot of people do that which is great and I think they should model it.   Nick: When I was hacking Secret MLM Hacks somehow, someway I ended up in the membership site and I hadn't paid for it. I messaged you and I'm like, “Dude, I have no idea how this happened but I'm here.”   Steve: We were in the middle of tweaking some stuff. Yeah, I remember that. It's not that way anymore.   Nick: It's not that way anymore. A whole new revamped course and everything. I got there and I started watching your videos, consuming and I implemented.   For my relaunch basically modeled exactly what you were doing. This was probably seven months ago, eight months ago?   HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME?   Steve: A while ago now, yeah.   Nick: Since then we went from$80,000 a month in volume to averaging about $150,000 a month in volume.   Steve: WHAT? I didn't know it was that big dude… Are you serious?   Nick: Yeah. In the past 12 months, we've done a little over $1.5 Million.   Steve: So you're saying it works?   Nick: I'm saying it works dude. That's probably about the time that you really started noticing me singing your praises. I'm sitting here inside of my own business and I'm watching these things grow and accumulate exponentially.   And I'm trying to teach this stuff to my team and get it through their heads… There's no other way!   Steve: I don't know another way either. I'm not making fun of you who are like, “I love talking to friends and family. I love going to home and hotel meetings”. Good on you. But you can only do that for so long.   It's so much better to have something automated.   Nick: Yeah, absolutely. I start learning more about marketing and it's a constant learning curve obviously.   But you know that? It’s so true that MLM is a personal growth opportunity with an income opportunity attached to it.   Steve: Right.   Nick: That's what it is. It's a great way to start for the traditional person who doesn't know anything about marketing or sales. You can start talking to family members and friends and doing all of that.   But the reason that 99% of us out there are failing is because we don't ever move past that portion of it.   The growth never happens and where we get into real marketing or real sales.   PERSONAL GROWTH WITH SECRET MLM HACKS   Steve: Reaching out to your network only gets you so far. After a while you have to learn how to attract more people, market to them, change beliefs, sell and close.   It's funny when people are like, “I'm just gonna treat this like a hobby.” You're not going anywhere then, sorry.   It's a business not a hobby.   Nick: That’s the way that I see this. We talked about this the other day. The way that I see MLM moving, the way that I see this momentum going... It's having a rebirth, almost.   If you've lived in our world, it's changing the way that it's happening. We're slowly moving out of those 1960's origins and moving to 2020.   You're seeing a lot more sales and marketing professionals get into the game. I'm trying to teach everybody that, I'm trying to show everybody that.   If you're not moving in the direction that things are going, you're going to become extinct.   You're going to have real professionals in this game, doing things, exploding and leaving everybody else in the dust.   Steve: There are social media platforms that were never around until 10 years ago. The distribution channels that exist now are massive and you can tap into them for near nothing.   Most MLMs are mad when you go do that kind of stuff. What is wrong with you? You could be selling so much more if you just use them! It doesn't mean you have to be on Facebook saying “MLM”.   What are you guys are doing right now that's working best for you? I'm just interested in that, because the course is big. Secret MLM Hacks is not a small course.   What is it in there that has been most helpful so far?   TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES WITH SECRET MLM HACKS STRATEGIES     Nick: The thing that I think that's been most helpful… It's just gotta be the confidence to go out and PUBLISH.   Steve: Oh yes.   Nick: The confidence to go out and publish and talk about what you're doing. It's one thing to sit there and learn it for yourself. It's another to go out and actually teach people what you're doing.   Steve: Sure.   Nick: Not only because, in my personal opinion, I think that you learn it better and but you learn how to communicate it better. The more that we've been publishing, the more that we've been putting it out there, the more that it attracts people.   Steve: Sure.   What's being published right now? Is it a podcast right now?   Nick: I've started a small little podcast at the moment.   Steve: What is it called? Feel free to shout it out.   Nick: I don't know if I want to at this point...   Steve: That's okay then, never mind.   Nick: I'm still trying to find my voice. My wife's Instagram account has been blowing up. She's got 42,000 followers right now.   Steve: That's big.   Nick: We do a lot of not direct marketing there. More like back page marketing.   Steve: Sure, that's one of my favorite kinds. Especially in MLM.   Nick: I modeled you and I set up my own little course. I started targeting people who want to make money online. The people who actually want to own a business. Not people who want to do a hobby.   Sending people through that mini-course has yielded great results.   THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND MLM   Steve: That's awesome.   What does your funnel look like right now? I talk so much about funnels, and most of the MLM world is still very new to the funnel term and concept. But what is it that you guys are doing right now?   Nick: The big thing we're doing right now is the little mini course which basically teaches marketing for MLM.   Steve: Sure, that's awesome.   Nick: The big idea behind that is, if you want to recruit more people into MLM and you don't want to talk to your friends and family, then:     You have to target people who actually want to own a business but people who aren't necessarily getting the results that they want out of the current business that they're in.   Setting up this little mini course that teaches people how to market. People who actually want to learn how to market their MLM. Then we invite them to join the downline.   At the end of this course I affiliate for you and I say, “Hey, there's two ways that you can learn this…”   Steve: Which I see by the way, thank you.   Nick: “... You can either go join Steve's Secret MLM Hacks and learn it from the master. Or you can join my downline and I'm gonna teach you exactly what I'm doing to grow my downline to do $1.5 Million per year.”   You can say in your current business and learn from Steve or you can join me and learn from me.   Catching that low hanging fruit, I suppose. Taking advantage of the way that the current MLM system is.   You have so many people that are unsatisfied with the business that they have because they're not learning the things they need to run their business.   TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO INCREASE TEAM VOLUME   Steve: Which reeks of opportunity for the rest of us who actually know what the heck's up.   Nick: Exactly. That's exactly what it is. It's kind of like a smorgasbord of low hanging fruit.   Steve: It is, yeah.   Nick: As far as extra recruiting goes and getting new people, it's great when people actually want to use the product, they believe in the product, they love the product and all of those things.   That's an amplifier but it's not a requirement.   Steve: So you guys have a course, you're selling, you're driving traffic to the course and then on the back you’re saying, “Hey, if you want to come join, this is what we've got”.   Nick: Exactly.   Steve: That's awesome. I was filming some training for my own team three weeks ago now. And I just wrote RECRUITING.   That is what most MLMs teach you and the method for it is just walk around. Think about the power of what we're doing with this stuff.   We're taking the recruiting model and replacing something in front of it so that we're not actually promoting the MLM.   How long did it take you to create your course?   Nick: I created the course in about seven days.   Steve: RIGHT? It's not crazy, man. You create this course so then you're no longer promoting an MLM. So Facebook is okay with you suddenly.   You drive traffic to that and take the money to dump it right back into ads. It's amazing and it changes the whole model.   It's literally INFO PRODUCT + MLM. Mashing together two different industries.   Are you doing phones sales as well? Closing them on the phone?   TEACH YOUR DOWNLINES THE POWER OF THE INTERNET   Nick: To a degree yes. I will offer that to people and I have an application process (modeled after you).   Nine times out of 10 when someone goes through the application process, I set up my auto-responder. My email service will kickback a set of emails that walk them through the process of setting up their account.   Then I've done an automated overview. A business overview that teaches them about the company.   During this entire time, I never even mention my company's name.   Steve: This is the craziest part! Same thing!   Nick: I've literally modeled what you've done.   Steve: I LOVE IT!   Nick: For months my entire office was covered with print out after print out of exactly what you did.   Once I finally mapped it out in my head, it was more about the concepts at hand.   Another thing that I think a lot of people struggle with inside of the funnel world is that they think it's about pages.   Steve: Right yeah, it's not.   Nick: It about the framework. What is the state of mind that he's putting every single person in?   Once I finally understood the framework behind it, I knew that's why I failed the very first time that I tried ClickFunnels. Because I thought that it was just all about pages.   But once I understood the core framework and moving somebody through the funnel and how that's done, then all of a sudden it made sense.   Steve: Right.   INCREASE TEAM VOLUME WITH SELF-LIQUIDATING OFFERS   Nick: One of the coolest things that happened out of all of this and how I feed this recruiting machine is by putting self-liquidating offers throughout the course.   The course is dripped out over five days and on each day there's a small self-liquidating offer.   Whatever I talk about that day, I then give them an offer to say, “Hey, if you want to learn this more in depth right now, click this”. Then it goes to a new page with a little sales video for an offer for $7.   Right now it's $1.50 per opt in on the front end and on the back end it's churning out $38.   Steve: You're speaking louder than whole MLMs even know how to!   Nick: Exactly and it pays for itself 17 times over. I'm paying myself to recruit people.   Steve: Last week on Secret MLM Hacks we put $1400 in and we got $20,000 back out (not including how many people got recruited and then they get handed the same recruiting systems). I don't know how it fails.   The biggest issue is the education. Most MLMs don't know how to do this which is understandable. It's a newish thing.   What would you tell to somebody who is on the fence about trying this?   ON THE FENCE ABOUT SECRET MLM HACKS?   Nick: The biggest thing that I would tell people is fail and fail fast. Just do it.   When we over think it, nothing ever gets done. I'm a perfectionist myself which is why I listened to Secret MLM Hacks 18 months ago and I just started doing this six to eight months ago. It wasn't really until the last three months that it really took off.   I’m still constantly tweaking and doing things to it but the fact is that I just did it.   I finally put down the pen, I finally put down the book and I went out there and I did it. Then I hit publish and I wasn't scared to feed the machine up front and put a little bit of money into it.   Nothing is ever gonna get done if I just sit here and read books. The knowledge is great...   Steve: But nothing happens.   Nick: You just gotta do it. Be active in your pursuit of what you want.   Steve: Be clear about the fact that this is not a hobby.   We've treated this like an actual business. We've got phone closers, we're talking to people and training.   I hate when someone joins because they're trying to do you a favor. Then they're wondering why they don't go build.   You recruited the wrong who! We gotta change your who altogether!   Nick: Every bum on the side of the street needs an opportunity.   Steve: Right!   Nick: I live in Austin and if you walk down downtown Austin you're guaranteed to see about 10 every 100 yards.   They might NEED an opportunity, but they don't' want it. You gotta find those people that actually WANT to succeed in whatever it is that you're doing.   DO YOU WANT THE SECRET MLM HACKS OPPORTUNITY?   Steve: Dude I am so thankful that you got on here. Thank you so much for sharing. I did want to ask one last question.   How many people have you been recruiting since you turned it on six months ago?   Nick: I would say we're probably getting five to seven a month.   Steve: That's awesome! On autopilot?   Nick: Yeah, on autopilot.   Steve: And the quality of person is really high which is awesome.   Nick: Five to seven a month is what we're recruiting into our organization and we get paid for a lot of people that say no to us as well.   Steve: Yeah, they bought the thing up front which is the beauty of it.   Nick: And I say five to seven, that's five to seven that we ACCEPT.   Steve: We get three to four applicants a day but I immediately cut out at least half off them because I can just tell…   Nick: Once you get to a certain point, you have to be able to say no. You have to self-select and be able to weed out people because otherwise it just becomes too overwhelming.   Steve: Then you turn into a life coach rather than a “Here’s what we're doing in our company this week” coach.   Nick: Exactly.   Steve: With love, I'll say that as tenderly as I can.   Nick, thank you so much for being on here, I really appreciate it. This was awesome, man. Really means a lot that you jumped on.   HEAD OVER TO SECRET MLM HACKS NOW   I know it's tough to find people to pitch after your warm market dries up, right? That moment when you finally run out of family and friends to pitch. I don't see many up lines teaching legitimate lead strategies today.   After years of being a lead funnel builder online I got sick of the garbage strategies most MLMs have been teaching their recruits for decades. Whether you simply want more leads to pitch or an automated MLM funnel, head over to secretmlmhacks.com and join the next free training.   There you're gonna learn the hidden revenue model that only the top MLMers have been using to get paid regardless if you join them. Learn the 3-step system I use to auto recruit my downline of big producers without friends or family even knowing that I'm in MLM.   If you want to do the same for yourself, head over to secretmlmhacks.com. Again that’s secretmlmhacks.com.

Listen to part two of my private coaching session with Nic Fitzgerald. The lessons I shared with him here are the same ones I would share with you if we could meet face to face. On today’s episode Russell continues his chat with Nick Fitzgerald and gives him a list of seven things he can do to help his business grow. Here are some of the awesome things to look forward to in this episode: What a few things that Nick got close to doing totally right, but missed a few key elements. How Nick can collaborate with others in the Two Comma Club X to be able to grow his customer list. And how Russell went from being a nobody, to having Tony Robbins call him to ask for help and how Nick can use that advice to advance his own business. So listen here to find out what the 7 things are that Nick and anyone else can do to grow a business. ---Transcript--- Hey everybody, welcome to Marketing Secrets podcast. I’m so excited, I’m here on stage right now at the Two Comma Club X event with Mr. Nick Fitzgerald onstage. A year ago I gave a podcast to him about how to make it rain and this is section number two. Now those of you who don’t know, in the last 12 months since I did that podcast he’s been making it rain and he’s been changing his life, his family’s lives, but more importantly, other people’s lives as well. And it’s been really cool, so that’s what we’re going to cover today during this episode of the podcast. So welcome back you guys. I’m here on stage with Nick Fitzgerald, so excited. So I made a list of seven things that if I was to sit in a room with him in front of a whole bunch of people I’d be like, “Hey Nick, you’re doing awesome, but here’s some things to look at that I think will help you a lot with what you’re doing.” So number one, when Nick first kind of started into this movement that he’s trying to create, I don’t know when it was, if you created this before or after. When did you create the Star Wars video? Nick: This was, we talked in July, it was September/October. So a few months later. Russell: How many of you guys have seen his Star Wars video? Okay, I’m so glad. For those who are listening, about 10% of the room raised their hand, the other 90% who are friends and followers and fans of Nick have never seen the Star Wars video. His Star Wars video is his origin story and it is one of the best videos I have ever, by far the best video I’ve seen him do, it is insanely good. It comes, do you want to talk about what happened in the video? It’s insanely good. Nick: So I told the story of, I’m a huge Star Wars nerd, so if you didn’t know that, now you do. When I was young my grandma who lived in the same neighborhood as me, she took me to go see Return of the Jedi in the movie theater and I was such a Star Wars nerd, even at a young age, that when I was playing at the neighbors house, and you know, it’s the 80s, so mom and dad are like, “Nick, come home for dinner.” That kind of thing, I would ignore them. I would not come home until they called me “Luke”. No lie. I would make them call me Luke, or I would ignore them. I would not hear them. Russell: Had I known this in high school I would have teased him relentlessly. Nick: So my grandma took me and I remember going and it was so fun because we took the bus, it was just a fun thing. And we went and I just remember walking in and handing my ticket to the ticket person. And then popcorn and just the smells of everything. And again, this is the 80s so walking in the movie theater; I almost lost a shoe in the sticky soda, {sound effects} going on. I just remember how my feet stuck to the floor and all that stuff. And then just being so excited to see my heroes on the big screen and Dark Vader, I just remember watching it. This is such a silly thing to get emotional about, but you know I remember the emperor and Darth Vader dying and all that stuff. It was just like, ah. It was a perfect day. Sorry sound dude. But it was just a perfect day with my grandma who has always been dear to me. So the purpose of that video, I’d put it off for a long time. I knew I needed to tell my own story if I’m going to be helping somebody else tell theirs. And I put it off for a long time, because working through things, I was afraid that if it sucked, if the story was terrible, if the visuals were crappy, that was a reflection on me and my skills. I had worked on a bazillion Hallmark Christmas movies, you know how they put out like 17 trillion Christmas movies every year, if one of those sucks, no offense, they’re not riveting television. Russell: They all suck. Nick: That wasn’t a reflection on me, I was just doing the lighting or the camera work. I didn’t write the story, it wasn’t my story. But this was me, so I put it off for a long time because I knew if I didn’t execute how I envisioned it, that it would reflect poorly on me, and it would be like I was a fraud. So the purpose of the video, there were three purposes. One to tell a story and get people to connect with me on a personal level. As I told that story here, how many of you remembered your feet sticking to the floor of a movie theater? How many of you, when I talk about the smell of popcorn and that sound, you felt and heard and smelled that. So it was one thing, I wanted people to connect with me and just see that I was just like you. Then I wanted to show that I could make a pretty picture. So I had that and I used my family members as the actors. And then I went and talked about how…and then I wanted to use it to build credibility. I’ve worked on 13 feature films and two television series and shot news for the NBC affiliate and worked in tons of commercials. So I’ve learned from master story tellers and now I want to help other people find and tell their story. And then I showed clips of stories that I tell throughout the years. So that was, I just remember specifically when I finally went and made it live, I made a list of about 20 people, my Dream 100 I guess you could say. I just wanted to send them and be like, “Hey, I made this video. I would love for you to watch it.” And Russell’s on that list. So I sent that out and made it live and then it was just kind of funny, it didn’t go viral, I got like 5000 views in a day, and it was like “whoa!” kind of thing. But it was just one of those things that I knew I needed to tell my story and if I wanted to have any credibility as a story teller, not as a videographer, but as a story teller, being able to help people connect, and connect hearts and build relationships with their audience, I had to knock it out of the park. So that was my attempt at doing that. Russell: And the video’s amazing, for the 10% of the room who saw it, it is amazing. Now my point here for Nick, but also for everyone here, I wrote down, is tell your story too much. Only 10% of the room has ever seen that video or ever heard it. How many of you guys have heard my potato gun story more than a dozen times? Almost the entire room, for those that are listening. Tell your story to the point where you are so sick and tired of telling the story and hearing it, that you just want to kill yourself, and then tell it again. And then tell it again. And then tell it again, because it is amazing. The video is amazing, the story is amazing. How many of you guys feel more connected to him after hearing that story right now? It’s amazing. Tell t he story too much. All of us are going to be like, “I don’t want to hear the story. I don’t want to tell the story again.” You should be telling that story over and over and over again. That video should be showing it. At least once a week you should be following everyone, retargeting ads of that video. That video should be, everyone should see it. You’ve got 5,000 views which is amazing, you should get 5,000 views a day, consistently telling that story, telling that story. Because you’re right, it’s beautiful, it’s amazing and people see that and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I need that for my business. I need to be able to tell my story the way he told that story, because the connection is flawless.” And I think my biggest thing for you right now, is tell your story more. Tell that thing. You’re telling good stories, but that story, that’s like your linchpin, that’s the thing that if you can tell that, it’s going to keep people connected to you for forever. Anyone who’s seen that video, you have a different level of connection. It’s amazing, it’s shot beautifully. You see his kids looking at the movies, with lights flashing, it’s beautiful. So telling your story more, that’d be the biggest thing. It’s just like, all the time telling that story over and over and over again. That’s number one. Alright, number two, this one’s not so much for you as much for most of everybody else in here, but number two is that energy matters a lot. I’m not talking about, I’m tired during the day. I’m talking about when you are live, or you are talking in front of people, your energy matters a lot. I was hanging out with Dana Derricks, how many of you guys know Dana, our resident goat farmer? By the way, he’s asked every time I mention his name is please not send him anymore goats. He’s gotten like 2 or 3 goats in the last month from all of our friends and family members here in the community. Please stop sending him goats. He loves them but he doesn’t want any more. Anyway, what’s interesting, I was talking to Dana, and he’s like, “Do you know the biggest thing I’ve learned from you?” and I’m like, “No. what?” and I thought it was going to be like dream 100 and things like that. No, the biggest thing that Dana learned from me, he told me, was that energy matters a lot. He’s like, “When I hang out with you, you’re kind of like blah, but when you get on stage you’re like, baaahh!” and I started telling him, the reason why is when I first started this career, in fact, I have my brother right now pulling all the video clips of me from like 12 or 13 years ago, when I had a shaved head and I was awkward like, “Hi, my name is Russell Brunson.” And we’re trying to make this montage of me over 15 years of doing this and how awkward and weird I was, and how it took 8-10 years until I was normal and started growing my hair out. But I’m trying to show that whole montage, but if you look at it like, I was going through that process and the biggest thing I learned is that if I talked to people like this, when you’re on video you sound like this. The very first, I think I’d have an idea and then I’d just do stupid things. So I saw an infomercial, so I’m like I should do an infomercial. So I hired this company to make an infomercial and next thing I know two weeks later I’m in Florida and there’s this host on this show and he’s like the cheesiest cheese ball ever. I’m so embarrassed. He asked me a question and I’m like, “Well, um, you know, duh, duh…” and he’s like, “Whoa, cut, cut, cut.” He’s like, “Dude, holy crap. You have no energy.” I’m like, “No, I feel really good. I have a lot of energy right now.” He’s like, “No, no you don’t understand. When you’re on tv, you have to talk like this to sound normal. If you just talk normal, you sound like you’re asleep.” I’m like, “I don’t know.” So we did this whole infomercial and he’s like all over the top and I’m just like, trying to go a little bit higher and it was awkward. I went back and watched it later, and he sounded completely normal and I looked like I was dead on the road. It was weird. Brandon Fischer, I don’t know if he’s still in the audience, but we did…Brandon’s back here. So four years ago when Clickfunnels first came out we made these videos that when you first signed up we gave away a free t-shirt. How many of you guys remember seeing those videos? I made those videos and then they lasted for like four years, and then we just reshot them last week because it’s like, “Oh wow, the demo video when we’re showing CLickfunnels does not look like Clickfunnels anymore. It’s completely changed in four years.” So Todd’s like, “You have to make a new video.” I’m like, “I don’t want to make a video.’ So finally we made the new videos, recorded them and got them up there and we posted them online, and before we posted them on, I went and watched the old ones, and I watched the old ones and I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is just four years ago, I am so depressing. How did anybody watch this video?” It was bad, right Brandon. It was like painfully bad. I was like, “oh my gosh.” That was just four years ago. Imagine six years ago, or ten years. It was really, really bad. And when I notice the more energy you have, the more energy everyone else has. It seems weird at first, but always stretch more than you feel comfortable, and it seems normal, and then you’ll feel better with it and better with it. But what’s interesting about humans is we are attracted to energy. I used to hate people talking energy talk, because I thought it was like the nerdy woo-woo crap. But it’s so weird and real actually. I notice this in all aspects of my life. When I come home at night, usually I am beat up and tired and worn out. I get up early in the morning, and then I work super hard, I get home and I get out of the car and I come to the door and before I open the door, I’m always like, Okay if I come in like, ugh, my whole family is going to be depressed with me.” They’ll all lower to my energy level. So I sit there and I get into state and I’m like, okay, whew. I open the door and I’m like, “What’s up guys!! I’m home!” and all the sudden my kids are like, “Oh dad’s home!” and they start running in, it’s this huge thing, it’s crazy, and then the tone is set, everyone’s energy is high and the rest of the night’s amazing. When I come in the office, I walk in and realize I’m the leader of this office and if I come in like, “Hey guys, what’s up? Hey Nick, what’s up?” Then everyone’s going to be like {sound effect}. So I’m like, okay when I come in I have to come in here, otherwise everyone is going to be down on a normal level. I have to bring people up. So we walk in the office now and I’m like, “What’s up everybody, how’s it going?” and I’m excited and they’re like, “Oh.” And everyone’s energy rises and the whole company grows together. So l love when Dave walks through the door, have you guys ever noticed this? When Dave walks through the door, I’m at a 10, Dave’s like at a 32 and it’s just like, he wakes up and comes over to my  house at 4:30 in the morning to lift weights. I sleep in an hour later, and I come in at 5:45 or something, and I walk in and I’m just like, “I want to die.” And I walk in and he’s like, “Hey how’s it going?.” I’m like, “Really good man. You’ve been here for an hour.” And all the sudden I’m like, oh my gosh I feel better. Instantly raised up. It’s kind of like tuning forks. Have you noticed this? If you get two tuning forks at different things and you wack one, and you wack the other one, and you bring them close together, what will happen is the waves will increase and they end up going at the exact same level. So energy matters. The higher your energy, the higher everyone else around you will be, on video, on audio, on face…everything, energy matters a lot. So that’s number two, when you’re making videos, thinking about that. Alright number three, okay this, you were like 90% there and I watched the whole thing and I was so excited and then you missed the last piece and I was like, “Oh it was so good.” So a year after that Facebook message came, you did a Facebook live one year later to the day, and he told that story on Facebook live. And I was like, “Oh my gosh this is amazing.” And he told that story, and he was talking about it, and I was emotional, going through the whole thing again. This is so cool, this is so cool. And he told the story about the podcast, and this podcast was an hour long, and the thing and his life changed and all this stuff… And I know that me and a whole bunch of you guys, a whole bunch of entrepreneurs listened to this story and they’re at bated breath, “This is amazing, this is amazing.” And he gets to the very end, “Alright guys, see you tomorrow.” Boom, clicks off. And I was like, “Aaahhh!” How can you leave me in that state?  I need something, I need something. So the note here is I said, make offers for everything. Think about this, at the end when you ended, and everyone’s thinking, I want to hear that episode, where is that? How would it be? Now imagine you take the opportunity at the very end that says, “How many of you guys would like to hear that episode where Russell actually made me a personal podcast? And how many of you guys would actually like if I gave you my commentary about what  I learned and why it was actually important to me? All you gotta do right now is post down below and write ‘I’m in.’ and I’ll add you to my messenger list and I’ll send you that podcast along with the recording where I actually told you what this meant to me.” Boom, now all those people listening are now on his list. Or they can even go opt in somewhere. But all you did was tell the story and everything and we were all sitting with bated breath and I was just like, at the end make the offer. You guys want the stuff I talked about, you want the thing? You want the thing? And then you send them somewhere and now you captured them and consider them longer term and you can do more things with them. It was like, hook, story, dude where’s my offer? Give me something. But it was awesome. How many of you guys felt that way when you listened to that thing and you’re just like, “I don’t even know where to find that episode. Russell’s got eight thousand episodes everywhere, I don’t even know where to look for it.” You could have been like, here’s the link. Just the link….if you guys can’t figure out how to make an offer, go listen to a whole bunch of stuff, find something amazing and be like, “oh my gosh you guys, I was listening to this Tim Ferris podcast, he did like 800 episodes, every one is like 18 hours long, they’re really hard to listen to, but I found this one from 3 ½-4 years ago where he taught this concept and it was insane. It was amazing; I learned this and this. How many of you want to know what that is? Okay, I have the link, if you message me down below I’ll send you the link to exactly where to find that episode.” Everyone will give it to you. You’ll be like, “But it’s free on the internet Russell.” It doesn’t matter. You know where it’s at and they don’t. They will give you their contact information in exchange for you giving them a direct link to the link. Back before I had anything to give away for opt ins, guess what I used to do. I used to go to YouTube and I would find cool videos from famous people. One of my favorite ones we did was I went and typed in YouTube, “Robert Kiyosaki” because he was one of my big mentors at the time. And there was all these amazing Robert Kiyosaki videos on YouTube for free. Tons of them. Hour long training from Robert Kiyosaki. Four hour long event from Robert Kiyosaki. All this stuff for free listed in YouTube. So I made a little Clickfunnels membership site, I got all the free videos and put them inside a members area and just like, “Tab one, Robert Kiyosaki talking about investing, Robert kiyosaki talking about stocks, Robert Kiyosaki talking….” And I just put all the videos in there and made a squeeze page like, “Hey, who wants a whole bunch of free, my favorite Robert Kiyosaki videos?” and I made a little landing page, people opt in, I give them access to the membership site, and then I went and targeted Robert Kiyosaki’s audience and built a huge list off his people. Dream 100. Imagine with Dream 100 instead of doing just one campaign to all the people, if each person in your dream 100 you made a customized membership site with the free content right now, be like, “Hey, you’ve listened to a lot of Grant Cardone, he’s got four podcasts, 5000 episodes, there’s only four that are actually really, really good. Do you guys wan tto know what they are? Opt in here, I’ll give you the four best episodes of all. I currated all these for you to give you the four best.” And target Grant’s audience with that, now you got all his buyers coming into your world. Is that alright, is that good. Alright number four ties along with this. Number four, start building a list ASAP. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you do a call to action to get a list anywhere, have I? After today’s session you’re …..just build a list. If you got nothing from this event at all, every time you do a hook and story, put them somewhere to build a list, because that’s the longevity. Because that’s where if Zuckerberg snaps his finger and you lose all your fans and followings and friends, and all the sudden you’re trying to build over somewhere else, it won’t matter because you’ll have those people somewhere external and now you can message them and bring them back into whatever world you need them to be at. But that’s how you build stability in business. It’s also how you sell this time, you want to sell it the next time and the next time, the list is the key. Funnel Hacking Live, the first Funnel Hacking Live it was a lot of work and we sold out 600 people in the room, and we kept growing the list and growing the list, the next year we did 1200. Then we did 1500, last year was 3000, this year we’re going to be at 5000. We’re building up the list and building up pressure and excitement and then when you release it, it gives you the ability to blow things up really, really fast.  Okay, that was number four. Okay number five, I wrote down integration marketing, adding to other’s offers to build a buyer list. So this is a little sneaky tactic we used to back in the day when I didn’t have my own list, but I had a couple of skills and talents which you do happen to have, which is nice. If you have no skills this won’t work, but if you have skills you’re lucky. So Frank Kern used to do this as well. Frank is sneaky. He used to do this all the time and I saw him doing it and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, he’s brilliant.” So Frank did a one hour presentation somewhere and he called it Mind Control, it wasn’t Mass Control, but it was something like about how to control the minds of your prospects through manipulation and something sneaky. And the title alone was amazing. It was a one hour presentation he gave somewhere. And he put it on these DVDs and what he did, he went to like Dan Kennedy and he’s like, “Hey Dan, you have all of your buyer and you send them this newsletter every single month,” at the time they had 13000 active members, these were their best buyers. He’s like, “This DVD I sell for like a thousand bucks. Do you want to give it to all your people for free?” And Dan’s like, “sure.” And all the sudden the next month, Franks got his best CD with his best stuff in the mailbox of the 13000 best customers, every single person that Dan Kennedy’s been collecting for the last 15 years. So think about this. With your skill set, look at the other people in the market, all the dream 100 who are doing things and how do you create something you can plug into their offers, and every single time one of those people sell a product, your face is popping up as well. It’s called integration marketing, my first mentor Mark Joyner wrote a book called Integration Marketing, it’s a really fast read. You can read it in an hour, but it will get your mind set thinking about it. How can I integrate with what other people are always doing? Because I can go and make a sell, and make another sell, but I was like, when we launched Clickfunnels I was like, “How can I figure out other people’s sales processes that are already happening and somehow inject myself into all these other sales processes?” That way every single time Steven Larsen sells something or someone else sells something, or all these people are selling something, it always somehow gets flown back to me. I want every product, every course, everything happening in the internet marketing world to somehow have people saying my name. That’s my goal. How many of you guy have been to other people’s events and I’m not there and they say my name? It makes me so happy. I get the instagrams from some of you guys, “Hey so and so just said your name.” I’m like, that’s so good. How have I done that? I spent a lot of my life integrating into everybody’s offers. Initially when I first got started, every single person who had a product, I was an interview in everyone’s product. I was like, looking at people launching a product, specific product launches coming, I’d contact them. Product launch is coming up, “Hey man, is there any way I could do a cool thing for your people? I could create this and give it to you and you could plug it into your product?” and everyone’s like, ‘Sure, that’d be awesome.” And all the sudden, boom, they get 5000 new buyers came in and every single one of them got my thing. They’re hearing my name, hearing my voice and it’s just constant integration. I think about how I met Joe Vitale, I talked about that earlier with the greatest showman. He was in an interview in a course I bought from Mark Joyner, I listened to it, fell in love with Joe Vitale, bought his stuff, given him tons of money over the years, a whole bunch of good stuff because he was integrated in that. So looking at other ways to integrate, the skill set that you already have into other people’s marketing channels because then you’re leveraging anytime any of these partners make a sell, you’re getting customers coming through that flow as well. Cool? Nick: Yeah. Russell: That was number five. Number six, I call this one rainmaker projects, because we talked about rainmaker during the first podcast interview. So rainmaker projects are, and again when I first started my career I did tons of these, where it’s like, I was really good at one piece. For you, you’re really good at video and story telling. And I look out here and be like, okay who is someone else here that is awesome? So and so is really good at making a product on Facebook ads. “You’re really good at Facebook ads, so I’ll do the video for this course, you do the Facebook, you do the actual ads for us.” And then, you’re awesome at doing the traffic and you bring in four or five people, like this little avenger team, and you create a cobranded product together and you launch it and everyone makes a bunch of money, split all the money, 50/50/50/50, that makes more than 100,but you know what I’m talking about, everyone splits the money, everyone splits the customer list and all the sudden you’ve all pulled your efforts, your energy, your talents together and everyone leaves with some cash, and you also leave with the customer list, and that’s when you start growing really, really rapidly. When I started I didn’t have a customer list, I had a very small one. But I had a couple of skill sets so that’s why I did tons of these things. That’s like, if you guys know any of my old friends like Mike Filsaime, Gary Ambrose, I could list off all the old partners we had back in the day, and that’s what we did all the time, these little rainmaker projects. We didn’t call them that back in the day, but that’s what it was. It was just like, we all knew what our skill sets were, and it’s like, let’s come together, let’s make a project. This isn’t going to be how we change the world, it’s not going to be something we’re going to scale and grow, but it’s like, it’s going to be a project, we put it together, we launch it, make some money, get some customers, get our name out in the market, and then we step away from it and then we all go back to our own businesses. It’s not like, that’s why it’s funny because a lot of times people are scared of these. Like, “Well, how do we set up the business structure? Who’s going to be the owner? Who’s the boss?” No, none of that. This is an in and out project where all the rainmakers come together and you create something amazing for a short period of time, you split the money and you go back home with the money and the customers. But it gave you a bump in status, a big bump in customer lists, a big bump in cash and then all those things kind of rise and if you do enough of those your status keeps growing and growing and growing, and it’s a really fast easy way to continue to grow. How many of you guys want to do a rainmaker project with Nick right now? Alright, very, very cool. Alright, and then I got one last, this is number seven. This kind of ties back to dream 100. The last thing I talked about was, and again this is kind of for everyone in the group, is the levels of the dream 100. I remember when I first started this process, I first got the concept and I didn’t know it was the dream 100 back then, but I was looking at all the different people that would have been on my dream 100 list. It was Mark Joyner, Joe Vitale, all these people that for me were top tier. Tony Robbins, Richard Branson, and I was like, oh, and I started trying to figure out how to get in those spots. And the more I tried, it was so hard to get through the gatekeeper, it was impossible to get through all these gatekeepers, these people. I was like, “Man don’t people care about me. I’m just a young guy trying to figure this stuff out and they won’t even respond to my calls or my emails. I can’t even get through, I thought these people really cared.” Now to be on the flip side of that, I didn’t realize what life is actually like for that, for people like that. For me, I understand that now at a whole other level. We’ve got a million and a half people on our subscriber list. We have 68000 customers, we’ve got coaching programs, got family, got friends. We have to put up barriers to protect yourself or it’s impossible. I felt, I can’t even tell you how bad I feel having Brent this morning, “Can you tell everyone to not do pictures with me.” It’s not that I don’t want to, but do you want me to tell you what actually happens typically? This is why we have to put barriers around ourselves. Here’s my phone, I’ll be in a room, like Funnel Hacking Live and there will be 3000 people in the room, and I’m walking through and someone’s like, “Real quick, real quick, can I get a picture?” I’m like, “I gotta go.” And they’re like, “It’ll take one second.” And I’m like, ahh, “Okay, fine, quick.” And they’re like, “Hold on.” And they get their phone out and they’re like, “Uh, uh, okay, uh, alright got it. Crap it’s flipped around. Okay, actually can you hold this, my arms not long enough can you hold it? Actually, hey you come here real quick, can you hold this so we can get a picture? Okay ready, one two three cheese.” And they grab the camera and they’re off. And for them it took one second. And that person leaves, and guess what’s behind them? A line of like 500 people. And then for the next like 8 hours, the first Funnel Hacking Live, was anyone here at the first Funnel Hacking Live? I spent 3 ½ hours up front doing pictures with everybody and I almost died afterwards. I’m like, I can’t…but I didn’t know how to say no, it was super, super hard. So I realize now, to protect your sanity, people up there have all sorts of gatekeepers and it’s hard. So the way you get through is not being more annoying, and trying to get through people. The way you get to them is by understanding the levels of that. So I tried a whole bunch of times, and I couldn’t get in so I was like, “Crap, screw those guys. They don’t like me anyway, they must be jerks, I’m sure they’re just avoiding me and I’m on a blacklist….” All the thoughts that go through your head. And at that time, I started looking around me. I started looking around and I was like, “hey, there’s some really cool people here.” And that’s when I met, I remember Mike Filsaime, Mike Filsaime at the time had just created a product he launched and he had like a list of, I don’t know, maybe 3 or 4 thousand people. And I remember I created my first product, Zipbrander, and I was all scared and I’m like ,”Hey Mike, I created this thing Zipbrander.” And he messaged back, “Dude that’s the coolest thing in the world.” A couple of things, Mike didn’t have a gatekeeper, it was just him. He got my email, he saw it, and he was like, “This is actually cool.” I’m like, “Cool, do you want to promote it?” and he’s like, “Yes, I would love to promote it.” I’m like, oh my gosh. I had never made a sale online at this point, by the way, other than a couple of little things that fell apart. I never actually made a sale of my own product. Zipbrander was my very first, my own product that I ever created. So Mike was that cool, he sent an email to his list, his 5000 person list, they came over, I had this little pop up that came to the site and bounced around, back in the day. I had 270 people opt in to my list from Mike’s email to it, and I think we made like 8 or 10 sales, which wasn’t a lot, but 67 that’s $670, they gave me half, I made $350 on an email and gained 300 people on my list. I’m like, oh my gosh this is amazing. And I asked Mike, “Who are the other people you hang out with? I don’t know very many people.” And he’s like, “Oh dude, you gotta meet this guy, he’s awesome.” And he brought me to someone else, and I’m like, “Oh this is cool. “ and Mike’s like, “Dude, I promoted Zipbrander, it was awesome, you should promote it.” And then he’s like, “Oh cool.” And he promoted Zipbrander. I’m like, oh my gosh, I got another 30-40 people on my list and there were a couple more sales. And then I asked him, “Who do you know?” and there was someone else, and we stared doing this thing and all the sudden there were 8 or 10 of us who were all at this level and we all started masterminding, networking, figuring things out, cross promote each other and what happened, what’s interesting is that all of our little brands that were small at the time started growing, and they started growing, and they started growing. All the sudden we were at the next tier. And when we got to the next tier all the sudden all these new people started being aware of us and started answering our calls and doing things, and Mike’s like, ‘Oh my gosh, I met this guy who used to be untouchable.” And he brought him in and brought them in and all the sudden we’re at the next level. And we started growing again and growing again. And the next thing we know, four years later I get a phone call from Tony Robbins assistant, they’re like, “Hey I’m sitting in a room and I got Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern, Jeff Walker, all these guys are sitting in a room with Tony Robbins and he thinks that you guys are the biggest internet nerds in the world, he’s obsessed with it and he wants to know if he can meet you in Salt Lake in like an hour.” What? Tony Robbins? I’ve emailed him 8000 times, he’s never responded even once, I thought he hated me. Not that he hated me, it’s that he had so many gatekeepers, he had no idea who I was. But eventually you start getting value and you collectively as a level of the dream 100 becomes more and more powerful. Eventually people notice you because you become the bigger people. And each tier gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So my biggest advice for you and for everybody is understanding that. Yes, it’s good to have these huge dreams and big people, but start looking around. There are so many partnerships to be had just inside this room. How many deals have you done with people in this room so far? Nick: Quite a few. Russell: More than one, right. Nick: Yeah, more than one. Russell: Start looking around you guys. Don’t always look up, up, up and try to get this thing. Look around and realize collectively, man, start doing the crossings because that’s how everyone starts growing together and there will be a time where I’ll be coming to you guys begging, “Can you please look at my stuff you guys, I have this thing called CLickfunnels. You may have heard of it. Can you please help me promote it?” And that’s what’s going to happen, okay. So the level of the dream 100 is the last thing, just don’t discount that. Because so many people are like swinging for the fence and just hoping for this homerun like I was, and it’s funny because I remember eventually people would respond to me, that I was trying for before, and they’d contact me. And I was like, oh my gosh. I realized, I thought this person hated me, I thought I was on a black list. I was assuming they were getting these emails and like, “oh, I hate this. Russell’s a scammer.” In my head right. They never saw any of them. Until they saw me, and they reached out to me and the whole dynamic shifted. So realizing that, kind of looking around and start building your dream 100 list, even within this room, within the communities that you’re in, because there’s power in that. And as you grow collectively, as a group, everyone will grow together, and that’s the magic. So that was number seven. So to recap the seven really quick. Number one, tell your story way too much, to the point where you’re so annoyed and so sick and tired of hearing it that everybody comes to you, and then keep telling it even some more. Number two, in everything you’re doing, energy matters a lot. To the point, even above what you think you’re comfortable with and do that all the time. Number three, make offers for everything. Hook, story, don’t leave them hanging, give them an offer because they’ll go and they will feel more completed afterwards. Number four, start building a list, it ties back to the first thing. Make an offer, get them to build your list, start growing your list because your list is your actual business. Number five, integration marketing. Look for other people’s marketing channels and how you can weave what you do into those channels, so you can get free traffic from all the people who are doing stuff. Number five, create rainmaker projects, find really cool things and bring four or five people together and make something amazing. Share the cash, share the customer list, elevate your status, elevate your brand, and it’s really fun to do because you get to know a whole bunch of people. And Number seven, understanding the levels of the dream 100. Find the people at your level and start growing with them together collectively as you do that, and in a year, two years, three years, five years Tony Robbins will be calling you, asking you to make his video and it will be amazing. Does that sound good? Awesome.

If you’re like Adrienne Clark, you might find that you have more in common with your museum's audience than not. Before she was the Museum of Pop Culture’s Content Manager, Adrienne was a member of the museum and a fan of their collections. And because she can empathize with her audience on that level, the MoPOP blog and Instagram feed always feel vibrant and relevant. I came across the MoPOP blog a few months ago as I was scanning through hundreds of museum websites, and her work immediately stood out to me. Not just because of the subject matter -- as you’ll hear, I’m also a fan of the museum’s topics -- but because of the content’s voice. I wanted to know how she developed the voice of the MoPOP blog, so I asked Adrienne to join me for a Skype call. **FULL TRANSCRIPT** NICK: Hi, and welcome to What’s On. The Cuberis Podcast. I’m Nick Faber. My guest today is Adrienne Clark, Content Manager at the Museum of Pop Culture in Seattle. As someone who produces content for your museum, how often do you think about your audience? It might sound like a trick question, but in my opinion, it should always be the first thing you do as you sit down to write an article, take a photo, or produce a new web page. If you start out by asking some simple questions -- Like, who is this content for? What value do we expect to give them? And how could this shape their experience with our institution? -- you can ensure that your website, your blog, or any other digital content you create is making an impact and reinforcing your relationship with your audience. And if you’re like Adrienne Clark, you might find that you have more in common with your audience than not. Before she was the Museum of Pop Culture’s Content Manager, Adrienne was a member of the museum and a fan of their collections. And because she can empathize with her audience on that level, the MoPOP blog and Instagram feed always feel vibrant and relevant. I came across the MoPOP blog a few months ago as I was scanning through hundreds of museum websites, and her work immediately stood out to me. Not just because of the subject matter -- as you’ll hear, I’m also a fan of the museum’s topics -- but because of the content’s voice. I wanted to know how she developed the voice of the MoPOP blog, so I asked Adrienne to join me for a Skype call. But first, I’ve never been to her museum, so I wanted to know what I could expect to see if I ever got the chance. And that’s where we’ll pick up the conversation. ADRIENNE: Well, the first thing you'll see is a big, colorful kind of crazy-looking building designed by Frank Gehry. It's right underneath the Space Needle. You can't really miss it. The monorail, which you probably would have seen swooping through the neighborhood goes straight through the building as well. So that's the first thing you're going to see, and you're gonna go, what is this place? Inside, you're going to see exhibits on music -- Nirvana, Pearl Jam -- exhibits on science fiction and horror film, as well as indie games. And right now we have a huge, massive -- our biggest exhibit to date -- of Marvel Universe of Super Heros, so a pretty cool addition. NICK: Awesome. Yeah, I noticed lately that you've had a lot more Halloween related content, so I was wondering how much horror is actually on display in the museum. Is that a pretty big part? Is it like film in general, or are you pretty genre-specific? ADRIENNE: It's actually one exhibit that focuses on horror. You're seeing a little bit of my joy of horror as well, I'm a big horror film fan. And every year we do a kind of initiative called "31 Days of Horror", but we only have four or so events, so the rest of that is filled out with content. It's our bread and butter this time of year. NICK: Yeah, it looks that way, I'm a big horror fan, too. I love when October comes around and all the streaming networks start adding more horror films,

Episode 173: Drama Teachers: How do you give student writers feedback? Nick Pappas wears many hats. He is a playwright, a director, he teaches and he's a dramaturg. This conversation took place at the International Thespian Festival where for the past five years he's worked with student playwrights. How do you give student playwrights feedback? Listen in to find out. Show Notes Nick Pappas Theatrefolk.com Drama Teacher Academy Episode Transcript Welcome to the Drama Teacher Podcast brought to you by Theatrefolk, the Drama teacher resource company. I am Lindsay Price. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening! So, we've got a new year – hello, 2017 – and a new shiny intro. Huh, what do you think? We here at Theatrefolk Global Headquarters are focusing our efforts all on you. Yes, you. I am, I'm talking to you. Yes; no, not them. You. This is Episode 173 and you can find any links to this episode in the show notes which are at Theatrefolk.com/episode173. Today, we're talking playwriting, specifically student playwriting. How many of you – raise your hands, I know – you want to include playwriting but there's something about it and it's something specifically that is very trepidatious and worrisome when it gets to feedback, right? How do we give good feedback to student writers that doesn't cause them to put their play in a drawer and never open that drawer for twenty-five years? Today, we're talking to Nick Pappas. He's a guy who wears many hats. He's a playwright and a director. He teaches. He's a dramaturg and he is Theatrefolk's play submission reader. So, he hits on all sides of the table when it comes to plays. But, as I said, we're talking specifically about student feedback and giving feedback and how do you give that good feedback. How do you get that good feedback? Well, let's get to it and find out. LINDSAY: All right. I am here with Nick Pappas. Hello, Nick! NICK: Hello! LINDSAY: Nick and I are at the International Thespian Festival right now which will be long over by the time this comes up, but we are going to talk about something which is – universal is not exactly the word I'm looking for – timeless is the word I'm looking for. NICK: There you go. LINDSAY: There you go. It doesn't quite matter but we're in a really unique situation right now, wouldn't you say? NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: Nick and I are both working as dramaturgs as part of a program called Playworks in which four student playwrights are chosen. Do you know how many plays are sent in to Playworks? NICK: I think it goes from a process of I heard they get about 70 plays and then the 70 are reduced down to, like, ten or twelve. LINDSAY: And then, they choose the four. NICK: Yeah. LINDSAY: And those four playwrights from – it's just the States – all of the states, they get brought to Lincoln, Nebraska for the International Thespian Festival and they get a director and a dramaturg and actors and we put up their plays. NICK: Yeah, in four days of rehearsal? LINDSAY: We had three this year. NICK: Oh, that's true. LINDSAY: Because auditions on Tuesday, Wednesday – oh, my gosh – we had Tuesday rehearsal, Wednesday rehearsal, Thursday rehearsal, and then… NICK: Up on Friday. LINDSAY: There's a little bit today and then you guys go up tomorrow. NICK: Correct. LINDSAY: And so, we're going to talk about what it's like to talk to a student playwright because a lot of you, I know, include playwriting units in your program. How to talk to students, how to give them feedback so that they continue writing and they don't curl up into a ball and never write again which is not what we want. I wanted to start with you, Nick. That's my preamble. NICK: All right. LINDSAY: You wear a lot of hats. NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: The three that I know are playwright and teacher and dramaturg. NICK: Yes. LINDSAY: What would you consider your biggest ha...