Hard to Believe

Apple TV's Severance wrapped its long-awaited 2nd season recently and left us with more answers than questions. But some answers! We (sorta) know what Severance is really all about, and we (sorta, maybe) know what Lumon is up to now! So while we wait the ungodly eternity for Severance to return, John and Kelly invited scholar Niki Dolfi on to talk about the cults, religious allusions, identity, and goats. Niki Dolfi researches Christian Nationalism and white supremacy (among other things) and explores the intersection of religion and popular entertainment. She enjoys British television and is longtime Whovian Niki is on Bluesky @profdolfi

Last week, the Catholic Church absolutely shook the world by electing Robert Prevost - an Augustinian from Chicago - Pope Leo XIV, making him the first ever American pope. Immediately, MAGA lost their collective minds, calling Leo XIV a woke Marxist and an anti-Trump liberal. Leo XIV's election was, without question, a statement by the Church directed squarely at MAGA and Donald Trump, but so many questions remain about what happens next. Kelly and John share their thoughts about the selection of Prevost, what it means that he chose the name Leo XIV, and why this way well serve as a check against Trump's fascism and persecution of immigrant communities. They also take a look at some of the findings from the Public Religion Research Institute's findings from their survey of Americans following Trump's first 100 days. John's thoughts on Leo XIV or available on our blog. The PRRI surveys we discuss on the episode can be found here and here

This week, author and journalist Annika Brockschmidt joins John to talk about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe, the possibly intentional downplaying of Christian Nationalism in Trump 2.0, and Pete Hegseth's tattoos. Annika Brockschmidt studied History, German Studies, and War and Conflict Studies in Heidelberg, Durham and Potsdam. She is a freelance journalist and author, Worked for the capital city studio of German public-broadcaster ZDF and produces the podcasts “Kreuz und Flagge” And “Feminist Shelf Control”. She is senior correspondent for Religion Dispatches and writes for example for German daily newspaper Tagesspiegel, German online magazine Zeit Online, Frankfurt-based daily Frankfurter Rundschau, Swiss online magazine Republik, and German cross-regional weekly Der Freitag. Her Book “Amerikas Gotteskrieger. Über die Macht der Religiösen Rechten in den USA” (American Holy Warriors. The Power of the Religious Right in the USA) was a bestseller in 2021. Annika is on Bluesky @ardenthistorian.bsky.social  

William Golding's 1952 novel Lord of the Flies is one of those books most of us of a certain age were forced to read in high school and pretty much universally hated. Often presented as a bleak meditation on human nature, Lord of the Flies certainly isn't that. But why were its real themes - the destructive nature of colonialism, the inconsistency between the ideals of democratic nations and their actual values, and how and why fascists tend to rise the top - so routinely overlooked for so long? Here, we suggest it's because Lord of the Flies is a book so obvious and unsparing in its symbolism it can really only be appreciated when its themes are playing out in front of us. As they are right now. With abandon. In this episode we also talk about how the Showtime series Yellowjackets helps illuminate why Lord of the Flies needs to be understood allegorically, as well as how fascism is depicted in another popular dystopian work involving teenagers killing each other, The Hunger Games. John's essay on Lord of the Flies can be found on our blog here: Lord of the Flies is more relevant now than ever  

Higher education is under attack in a way few saw coming. Maybe they should have, and maybe that's part of the problem. Institutions of higher education have been a laser target of the Trump administration's authoritarian project in its first two months. And while authoritarians have long prioritized going after and dismantling academic institutes, this strategy also includes the cynical use of major wedge issues (namely Israel/Palestine) and the manipulation of emotionally-charged, religiously-oriented terminology like "antisemitism" There is, as they say, a lot going on here, and we can't get to it all in one episode, but we thought it was important to take a broad look at what is going on in higher education, where we have gone wrong in our approach to that's made it so vulnerable to attack, and some of the surprising ways religious interests are shaping the outcomes.

Before you listen to today's episode, you should know that knowing about Roko's Basilisk can doom you forever. Still here? Great. This week, John and Kelly explore a few of the religion stories that have surfaced in recent weeks, including what happens and if when Pope Francis dies soon, and the evangelical backlash of Trump appointing Paula White as the White House Faith officer.  Then, we take on Roko's Basilisk, an unhinged thought experiment about the moral imperative of helping to develop super-intelligent A.I. that, as it happens, also helps explain Elon Musk's zealous, eugenicist project to dismantle the federal government. We promise it matters!

We recorded this about a year ago, for the 25th anniversary of the release of THE MATRIX. But since Elon Musk now controls the country, we're republishing an edited-down version because it's important to know how Musk thinks. Next episode, we'll be talking about a number of the other beliefs that shape Musk's worldview, among them Roko's Basilisk, so this episode is good preparation for that conversation. ************************************************************************************ In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/

What's the deal with the far-right's obsession with Tolkien? Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is, ostensibly, a story of different races coming together to defeat a shared enemy - one that intends to shroud the world in darkness and despair. Or...is it? If you ask billionaire fascist Peter Thiel - whose surveillance company Palantir is named for an evil crystal ball in Lord of the Rings - the answer isn't so simple. Nor is it for self-proclaimed "Tolkien guy" and Thiel protege JD Vance. Is the fascism-leaning right-wing and the TradCath movement justified in declaring Tolkien one of their own? And even if they're not, can we reconcile the racism inherent in Lord of the Rings with its apparent message of fellowship and perseverance in the face of an existential threat? Those questions have kept Tolkien scholars busy for 80 years, but we talked through some of them with scholar Marika Rose. You can find out more about Marika as well as links to some of the sources for this episode below: Marika Rose Marika on Bluesky How Lord of the Rings Shaped JD Vance's Politics Revisiting Race in Tolkien's Legendarium: Constructing Cultures and Ideologies in an Imaginary World How The Lord of the Rings became a symbol for Italy's far-right ‘The Lord of the Rings' Is Not the Far Right's Playground Tolkien and Race

This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher's Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching.

Writer and journalist Jason Kirk's debut novel, Hell is a World Without You, was released in December of 2023 to wide acclaim. Hell is a World Without You tells the story of Isaac Siena, an Evangelical teenager living in Pennsylvania at the turn of the millennium who struggles with the dual-challenges of adolescence and his faith. The novel is drawn from elements of Kirk's own life and is set against the backdrop of an America in the wake of Y2K and on the verge of 9/11. Kirk is a senior editor for The Athletic and cohosts the podcast Vacation Bible School with his wife Emily. He joined Kelly and John to talk about drawing from his own experiences to write a novel that would speak to people both within and without the youth evangelical experience, his faith journey, and who is going to win the Super Bowl (it's the Bills, apparently - take it to the bank). You can learn more about him and read some of his work at https://www.jasonkirk.fyi/

Anthony Comstock might be the most significant American that it's entirely possible you've never heard of. A zealous Christian crusader against so-called "obscenity" in the late 19th century, he is the namesake of the Comstock Act, the interstate commerce law that the Heritage Foundation plans to use to curb access to abortion pills and pornography. Born in Connecticut in the mid-1800s, Anthony Comstock grew up with regressive Victorian ideals in a puritanical New England household. His self-loathing and religious zeal lead to a life of bullying and persecuting countless men and (more often) women, driving many to suicide and tallying up hundreds of years in prison sentences. The radical social dynamics at the time in many ways echo our current culture wars, and since Anthony Comstock is about to play a major role in American life again, we thought it would be useful to talk a bit about his life and times. Much of the information for this episode was drawn from Amy Sohn's book The Man Who Hated Women: Sex, Censorship, and Civil Liberties in the Gilded Age Also helpful were the biography of Comstock from the Smithsonian's National Postal Museum and TheFire.org's Why the 1873 Comstock Act still matters today

The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season.

Kelly is away, so our next new episode will be released in two weeks. This is a rerelease of an episode originally published on December 19th, 2023. But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph.

(Rerelease from 2023) What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth

Directed by first time documentary directors Haley Pappas and Smiley Stevens, Breath of Fire was released on MAX in October as a four-part documentary series. Breath of Fire is based on the 2021 Vanity Fair piece The Second Coming of Guru Jagat by Hayley Phelan, who also appears in and executive produced the series. It tells the story of Kundalini yoga practitioner turned de facto cult leader/professional grifter Katie Griggs, known to her followers as Guru Jagat. Throughout its four hours, Breath of Fire touches on some recurring themes and questions, such as the power of religious fraud, abuse, orientalism, and what exactly it is that people rally want from religion. This week, Kelly and John try to unpack its often enlightening, often disturbing implications.

We'll just cut to the chase - this week sucked and the next four years are going to be very dark and very difficult. But we're not here just to rage and doomcast. This Kelly and John were joined by fellow religion scholar Andrew Tobolowsky to try to provide some perspective on what's ahead, what the fight is going to be, the role Project 2025 will and won't play, and why the more likely challenge will be living through a chaotic nightmare as opposed to a Christian Nationalist dystopia. Andrew is on BlueSky at @andytobo.bsky.social

The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.  

George Ratliff's 2001 documentary Hell House chronicles the development of the 10th annual Hell House Halloween production put on by Trinity Church in Texas. A Hell House is a variation on the Halloween haunted house tradition, in which actors play out horror movie scenarios as guests move room to room to be frightened out of their minds. But Hell Houses are, instead, tools of Christian indoctrination and recruitment, taking visitors through scenes of horror that led people to hell, like abortion, suicide, or being other than heterosexual. Ratliff's film captures a pretty specific moment in the Evangelical movement, one that has morphed and evolved into something different today. But Hell House provides us some useful insights into the role horror, fear, and trauma play in the Evangelical mind. Jason Bivins rejoins the show to talk about it. He is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu.

"They're eating the dogs" is already enshrined as one of the most memorable and iconic (and insane) phrases ever to enter the arena of American politics. Donald Trump is a ridiculous, unserious, and increasingly gullible person, and his amplifying of a fake story of Haitian immigrants in Ohio eating pets in front an audience of tens of millions is a new low even for him. "They're eating the dogs" has been memed and remixed to death already, sometimes to hilarious effect. And plenty of experts on the authoritarianism highlight the need to mock and belittle authoritarians. Plenty of "they're eating the dogs" memes serve that end. But it's also a carbon copy of the Blood Libel, the medieval conspiracy theory against Jewish populations that accused them of stealing and feeding off the blood of Christian children. So is there a line where humor has to end and genuine outrage response has to begin? Also, who's gonna win this election anyway? For thoughts on that, we turned to our friend, journalist Sarah Posner, who last joined us in March. You can find Sarah on Bluesky @sarahposner.bsky.social

This week, in part inspired by the anniversary of 9/11, Kelly and John invited Thomas Lecaque on the show to talk about the ways the Christian right frame the Crusades and other violent failures to justify their own acts of political and religious violence. Thomas Lecaque is an associate professor of History at Grand View University in Des Moines, Iowa. He specializes in the nexus of apocalyptic religion and political violence. He has written for the Washington Post, Religion Dispatches, Foreign Policy and The Bulwark, among others. He has recently turned his attention to colonial America, examining the ways in which Christian holy war zeal shaped the American landscape Also this week, John delivers some really bad news about ciabatta, and Thomas and Kelly go head to head in POK's exciting new game "What The Hell Was He Talking About?" You can find Thomas on Twitter @tlecaque

Jesus Camp was 2006's other big documentary, nominated for the Academy Award for documentary feature but losing out to a little film called An Inconvenient Truth. Directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (and timed, coincidentally, to the appointment of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court) it mainly follows three young evangelical Christians as they prepare to attend the Kids On Fire summer camp, run by a youth pastor named Becky Fischer. Largely through interviews with Fischer and the children, Ewing and Grady paint a picture of an emerging movement to indoctrinate young people in order to take on secularism at every level of American life as adults. 18 years later, Jesus Camp provides a fascinating juxtaposition between the far-right evangelical movement then (with its obsession with George W. Bush, Harry Potter, Intelligent Design, and Ted Haggard) and the post-January 6th, Trumpian present. Megan Goodwin again joins Kelly and John to sort through all this and more. For an update on the three featured kids, you can check out Jennifer Tisdale's post on Distractify here: https://www.distractify.com/p/jesus-camp-where-are-they-now

Stockholm Syndrome is a really good MUSE song. Unfortunately, it's not a good anything else.0 On a recent episode of television's worst show, The Five on Fox News, panelist Jessica Tarlov, herself Jewish, asked her fellow panelist Greg Gutfeld why Jews tend to be Democrat and not Republican. His answer? Stockholm syndrome. Most people could probably give a decent summary of what Stockholm syndrome supposedly is - the phenomenon of a hostage coming sympathize and even identify with their captor - but few of them would be able to accurately recount the story that gave rise to its supposed existence. This stubbornly enduring - and almost certainly wrong - belief has gone on to influence the way we think about why people take on certain political positions, join cults, or even adhere to extremist religious views. So we decided it was worth taking a look at the story at its center to find out what it can tell us about why we are so wrong about how we think about out other people think. Of the many resources used for this episode, none was better at filling in the most important gaps than Rebecca Armitage's piece for ABC News Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-23/is-stockholm-syndrome-a-myth/102738084

Project 2025 has (finally) become an enormous national news story. But while its goals (which go after everything from contraception to the Department of Education) have rightly been in the spotlight, it's also important to understand that, far from being the fantasy wish list of a group of fringe conservatives, it is in fact a project of a major think tank, decades in the making. It comes out of the Heritage Foundation, an organization founded by anti-democratic far-right Christian nationalist Paul Weyrich and currently run by the like-minded Kevin Roberts...whose upcoming book has a forward by JD Vance. This week, John and Kelly unpack a little bit about why you should take anything coming out of the Heritage Foundation very seriously.   LINKS! P2025 Explained: Project 2025: The myths and the facts Democrats Are Sounding the Alarm About Project 2025. What's in It? What is Project 2025? What to know about the conservative blueprint for a second Trump administration Project 2025: A wish list for a Trump presidency, explained Other Resources: Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism' in second administration Trump claims not to know who is behind Project 2025. A CNN review found at least 140 people who worked for him are involved J.D. Vance has made it impossible for Trump to run away from Project 2025 Liz Theoharis and Shailly Gupta Barnes - Project 2025: The Christian Nationalist Vision to be Imposed on America  

The 1972 film Marjoe won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. And then it spent a long time having largely been forgotten until it was restored and rereleased in 2005. Marjoe is an intimate look at the life of Marjoe Gortner, who rose to fame in the charismatic evangelical revival world as the world's youngest preacher until he was ultimately unmasked as a fraud, trained (often through torture) to deliver sermons with fake piety while fleecing untold crowds of true believers. The film starts with Marjoe in his twenties having made a comeback, fully aware he was still a conman and showing at least some signs of remorse and discomfort with the grift. It's a film told from a questionable perspective, dripping with iffy journalistic ethics, but it poses (even if inadvertently) some tantalizing, unanswerable questions about, among other things, the role sincerity plays in the preacher-believer relationship and the unfortunate ease with which religion can be leveraged to stay cons. Our friend Megan Goodwin joins us to talk through all of it.

Well it's been a heck of a week of bad news, and even before the Supreme Court decided the the president was king, Kelly and John decided to look at two news stories likely to play into next year's Supreme Court decisions: Louisiana's new Ten Commandment school mandate and Oklahoma's new requirement to include the Bible in its public school curriculum. On the surface, both of these measures are clearly, explicitly unconstitutional, and both have plenty of precedent to back up their unconstitutionality. But in this episode we argue that that may not matter, and that lawsuit-hungry ideas like these are designed to fine-tune a decades-long attempt to bring Christian indoctrination into the public education system. And, given the makeup of the current court, one of them may actually work. Some resources used in this episode:

We're back for season two, and we're kicking it off by talking to Dr. Matthew D. Taylor about that weird An Appeal to Heaven flag that got Justice Samuel Alito in so much trouble! Taylor holds a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and Muslim-Christian Relations from Georgetown University and an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians' America (Cambridge University Press), offers an introduction to the oft-misunderstood Salafi movement in the U.S. by way of comparison with American Evangelicalism. He is also the creator of the acclaimed audio-documentary series  “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation,” which details how networks of extremist Christian leaders helped instigate the January 6th Insurrection. His next book, The Violent Take It By Force: The Christian movement that is threatening our democracy (Broadleaf Books), will be published in Fall 2024. He joined Kelly and John to talk about the threat to democracy the flag represents, and offered his thoughts about what we can still do to break the spell of Christian Nationalism in America.

Last month, Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill authorizing Florida school districts and charter schools to adopt a policy for chaplains “to provide support, services, and programs to students"...provided those chaplains aren't Satanists. "We're not playing those games in Florida. That is not a religion," DeSantis said of Satanism. "That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this." The thing is, though, Satanism most definitely is a religion, and in the case of The Satanic Temple it is a religion in the eyes of United States tax law. DeSantis may well have said this knowing his bill likely violates the 1st amendment and thus inviting an inevitable legal fight with The Satanic Temple's founder, social justice and 1st Amendment activist Lucien Greaves. In our final episode of the season - marking the podcasts' one year anniversary - Kelly and John talk about the bill as part of creeping Christian Nationalism, why it's so hard to define a religion (and why governments shouldn't be in the business of doing so), and what Lucien Greaves and The Satanic Temple actually stand for.  

Dr. Richard Newton is an Associate Professor and Undergraduate Director in the Religious Studies department at the Universrity of Alabama From the University's website: Dr. Newton's areas of interest include theory and method in the study of religion, African American history, the New Testament in Western imagination, American cultural politics, and pedagogy in religious studies. His research explores how people create “scriptures” and how those productions operate in the formation of identities and cultural boundaries. In addition to an array of book chapters and online essays, Dr. Newton has published in the Journal of Biblical Literature and Method & Theory in the Study of Religion among other venues. His book, Identifying Roots: Alex Haley and the Anthropology of Scriptures (Equinox, 2020), casts Alex Haley's Roots as a case study in the dynamics of scriptures and identity politics with critical implication for the study of race, religion, and media. And you can learn more about his use of digital media and pedagogy at his site, Sowing the Seed: Fruitful Conversations in Religion, Culture, and Teaching. He joined Kelly and John to talk about a cul-de-sac in Houston led him to religious studies, the value of scripture, and Pearl Jam. Find him on Twitter @seedpods

It's Eclipse Day, so we're releasing a day early! The solar eclipse that will be visible for much of the United States today had evoked all kinds of reactions, from overbooked hotels in wholly unprepared corners of the country to end times zealots declaring it a warning from God. Eclipses have always been a source of wonder and religious interpretation, and if Marjorie Taylor Greene's Twitter feed is any indication, there is no sign of that slowing down anytime soon. But do eclipses also have a place among the more level-headed, mainline religious communities in America? We asked journalist Emily McFarlan Miller, who wrote about religion and eclipses for the 2017 solar eclipse, to share her thoughts on the matter. You can find Emily on most of the socials with the handle @emmillerwrites. Her piece on the last eclipse, from Religion News Services, can be found here: Signs and wonder: How people of different faiths view the total solar eclipse

In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/  

Sarah Posner has been covering the Christian right and Christian Nationalism for more than a decade. A regular contributor to MSNBC, her works has also appeared in The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Atlantic, Salon, The Nation, The American Prospect, Al Jazeera America, and many other publications. Posner is the author of 2008's God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters and 2020's Unholy: How White Christian Nationalists Powered the Trump Presidency, and the Devastating Legacy They Left Behind. She joined Kelly and John last week, on the eve of the State of the Union Address and just as Donald Trump had secured the Republican nomination for the 2024 presidential race, about how she came to cover religion, how Christian Nationalism has evolved over the past few decades, and what she thinks is ahead, whether Trump returns to power or not. Her website is http://sarahposner.com.

For the last couple years, Amanda Moore has spent her time covering the far right on her Substack The Turtle Diaries Amanda infiltrated the far right during the final year of the Trump administration and has written about her experiences in publications like The Nation. She recently went to the Texas border to cover the arrival of "God's Army" - a group of truckers (possibly) who took it upon themselves to defend the border from an "invasion" and maybe possibly kick of the 2nd Civil War (they didn't). Amanda joined Kelly and John to talk about her experience at the border (which led to her acquiring a new far-right, J6-alumnus stalker), growing up with fundamentalism, how she sees QAnon as a perfectly predictable offshoot of evangelicalism, and whether she thinks the right is poised to bubble over in violence once again. You can find her on Twitter (and other social media) @noturtlesoup17

This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Nicole Symmonds, who works as an Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics and, it happens, used to work a few cubicles down from John at Beliefnet a decade and a half or so ago. Dr. Symmonds' work sits at the intersection of Christian ethics and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She explores Black women's embodiment, particularly the practices of liberative embodiment they craft as a method of resistance to domination and as a simulation of freedom. Dr. Symmonds identifies as Black Catholic, a religious tradition that follows the rite of the Roman Catholic Church but is driven by the spirit of Blackness in all its forms according to Black people's diasporic origins and heritage. She is a parishioner at Our Lady of Lourdes, the Mother Church of African-American Catholics in the Archdiocese of Atlanta. In this episode, she discusses her work studying evangelicals and anti-sex-trafficking work, becoming a Black Catholic, TikTok, and why she emphasizes the term "womanism" in her studies.` She is on Twitter @nicole_symmonds

As a nice break from all the doom and gloom in the world (and the depressing stuff we often cover), we decided to ask the wonderful Dr. Judith Weisenfeld to come talk to us about her life and work. Judith Weisenfeld is the Agate Brown and George L. Collord Professor of Religion at Princeton University, Associated Faculty in the Department of African American Studies and the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies, and a member of the Executive Committee of the Effron Center for the Study of America. Her research focuses on early twentieth-century African American religious history, and she has explored a range of topics, including in the relation of religion to constructions of race, the impact on black religious life of migration, immigration, and urbanization in African American women's religious history, and religion in film and popular culture. She is currently the Director of The Crossroads Project: Black Religious Histories, Communities and Cultures, a four-year project funded by the Henry Luce Foundation aimed at producing deeper understandings of the history and diversity of Black religious life in the U.S. Here she talks to Kelly and John about how she got into religious studies, the joys of accidentally discovering new things during research, and her books Hollywood Be Thy Name and New World A-Coming. She is on Twitter @JLWeisenfeld

Is Peloton a cult? Well, Kelly owns one, so she is uniquely qualified to answer. In all seriousness, a Google search for terms like "peloton cult" or "fitness cult" yields a lot of results. Fairly or not, the fitness equipment company Peloton has been accused of fostering cult-like behavior in its customers. And the same can be said for branded workout companies like CrossFit and SoulCycle. But why? And is there anything to this? In this episode, Kelly and John ask those very questions, and explore what thinking about fitness culture in the framing of religion and cult behavior can tell us about all three of those things. And they also look at the emerging "cults" that appear to defy our traditional understanding of what they are and what leads people to them, like Twin Flames.

34 years ago, in December of 1989, Fox aired Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire, a Simpsons Christmas special, the de facto pilot to the subsequent primetime sitcom, and a cultural phenomenon was born. To people of a certain age, The Simpsons is part of the cultural DNA. And as an animated sitcom, it had unique license to explore elements of American culture that no other series could. And one of those elements was religion. The Simpson family went to church. They lived in a multicultural, multiethnic (but still predominantly white and Christian) community. They exposed aspects of American religious life that were hiding in plain sight. Dr. David Feltmate wrote about all this (in addition to how religion is portrayed in Family Guy and South Park) in his book Drawn to the Gods, and this week, he joined Kelly and John to talk about his life in religious studies, why he loves The Simpsons, and how religion exists in a post-Simpsons America.

But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph.

It's December, which means it's time for everybody's racist uncle's favorite holiday tradition, the War on Christmas. Every year, sure as silver bells chime and lit wreathes line the streets of America's most aggressively white suburbs, Fox News delights eager viewers by trotting out this year's new battlefront narrative: Gay nutcrackers at Target! Insufficiently Christmassy Starbucks cup! Liberals cancelling Rudolph! If you ask Fox News and your least-favorite relatives, there is a War on Christmas...and there always will be. So Kelly and John are here to lay down so facts, starting with the fact that Christmas in the year 2023 is a much, much more religious affair than at any time in the past, and that Christmas is only growing more ubiquitous as a holiday globally. And that there was a War on Christmas - a war that Christmas won in a rout - waged by Christians for centuries. LINKS! The Right-Wing's Forever War: A Short History Of The War On Christmas - Bill Berkowitz Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas'? - Jade McClain Target is “Sexualizing Christmas for Children” Screeches Fox News - John Riley A Puritan Christmas under Cromwell - Jessica Brain The Plum Pudding Riots: What happened when Christmas was cancelled in Kent - Phil Hayes

What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth

Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House or Representatives. And what the media seems to think you should know about him is that he's very nice, he's smart. he's well-respected by his colleagues, he's personally liked by Democrats, and he's conservative Christian. Oh, and did we mention he's nice? Mike Johnson - real nice guy! What we think you should know about him, however, is that he is now the most powerful Christian Nationalist in the country - possibly in the history of the country. And Mike's niceness masks some truly dark intentions. Because while nobody seems to have heard of this guy before last month, he has been at the center of the far-right Christian project to remake America as a patriarchal theocracy, and he has very close ties to the likes of the Falwells, James Dobson, and Tony Perkins. So today, Kelly and John take some time to vent about the failure of our media and to try to correct their missteps ever so slightly, including highlighting some folks who have been covering Johnson the right way, as they provide a quick rundown of who Mike Johnson and why the ascension of this very nice man marks a very dangerous moment for the future of the country. The New York Times: The Embodiment of White Christian Nationalism in a Tailored Suit Mother Jones: Mike Johnson's Long Flirtation With Christian Nationalism Mother Jones: Mike Johnson Conducted Seminars Promoting the US as a “Christian Nation” The Nation: The Folksy Fanaticism of Mike Johnson

Jenn Tisdale joins John and Kelly to talk about Edgar Allan Poe and the new Netflix series from Mike Flanagan The Fall of the House of Usher Like he did for Shirley Jackson with The Haunting of Hill House, Flanagan's series remixes and reimagines much of Poe's work and life story to create something haunting, timely, and revelatory, exposing themes in Poe's work and digging into the author's sense of morality and justice. For this Halloween special, they discuss the role that fears of pain and death play in narrative, what Carla Cugino's Raven character suggests about justice and free will, and just how damn great this cast is.

Jason Bivins is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. He has also published multiple articles, review essays, and occasional pieces on religion, politics, and culture in the United States. His most recent book is Embattled America: The Rise of Anti-Politics and America's Obsession with Religion (forthcoming, Oxford University Press, April 2022). A child of the era of the Satanic Panic - the unfounded moral hysteria around devil worship that gripped much of the US and Canada in the 1980s and 90s - Jason's interest and study of religion has been driven in large part by the experiences of his metal-loving, comic book-reading youth. Here he talks to Kelly and John about how conservative evangelicals manipulate and embrace horror tropes for their own ends in books like Left Behind, the story of Hell Houses, and how are cultural fractured and broke all our brains sometime in the mid 1990s. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu.

Mike Flanagan's "Midnight Mass" revisits a lot of the themes of much of his previous work: grief, death, trauma, loss (and you can listen to our discussion of his "Haunting Of" Netflix series here). But it also covers some a lot of new ground, including the complicated relationship between human beings and the religions they build. It is a show grounded as much in humanity as it is in horror, and it asks more questions than it answers - and, in this way, it demonstrates an understanding of what religion is and how it works that is rare not only for the genre but for popular fiction in general. John has been unable to stop thinking about the series since it debuted three weeks ago, and so, desperate to talk about it, he invited the two most qualified voices on the subjects of horror and religion he knows - Kelly J. Baker and Dan Colón, co-host and co-creator of Cage Club's The Monsters that Made Us. Dan on Twitter Show page: The Monsters That Made Us

If you've been feeling a little off lately, it's probably because FEMA recently tested a new emergency alert system and it activated the nanotech in your covid vaccine and now you're a zombie. As least, that's what a disturbing number of people on the right thought would happen. And maybe some of them still think it DID happen? You can find all about that in Matt Shuham's piece in the Huffington Post here: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fema-wireless-emergency-alerts-system-test-conspiracy-theories-zombies-5g_n_651c71bfe4b00623d35ea98f So this weekend, we're asking, first of all, "why?" - and trying to make sense of the timing and implications of this particularly loopy conspiracy theory and what it says about the state of right-wing endtimes conspiracism.

Horror would be nothing without Catholic horror. From crucifixes to demon possession, from Dante's "Inferno" to the "The Nun II", Catholic imagery and imagination have shaped horror for centuries. But the intersection of Catholicism and horror has a dark real-world connection, as well. The Hero Priest trope at once masks and alludes to a hidden legacy of clerical sexual abuse, and the threat of hell lingers in the imagination of so many believers. This week, we talk to our friend Matthew J. Cressler, a scholar of Catholicism and longtime fan of William Friedkin's 1973 classic "The Exorcist", about Catholicism's influence on horror as well as horror's influence on the Catholic imagination. You can find more about Matt and his work here: https://matthewjcressler.com/

In this Weekend Chit-Chat, we discuss: How the Klan of 1920s used mainstream acceptance and the mantle of Christianity to push their agenda in the center of American life, and we ask how the descendants of that group, like the Proud Boys, have altered those tactics in ways that seem radically different on the surface but maybe aren't so different after all. We talk absurd memes, the "it's just a joke!" defense, and tapping into pop culture references to appeal to the modern mainstream. But, hey, soccer! Soccer's good!

If you happen to fall within a certain (fairly broad) age range, there is a very good chance that somewhere, at some point, you have encountered Chick Tracts. Jack Chick's horrific, over-the-top, feverish warnings about what happens if you don't accept Christ before you DIE!!!! have literally littered city streets and coffee shop tabletops for decades. Chick Tracts are outlandish and, if you don't happen to be an ultra fundamentalist end times Christian, deeply offensive. But they are also interesting and, from an artistic perspective, clever and accomplished. In fact, purely in terms of how many eyes have seen his work, Jack Chick is one of the most successful artists ever. American Hysteria host Chelsey Weber-Smith recently released an in-depth, thoughtful, and thorough look at Chick's life and work, including his use of urban legend and horror tropes, and she joined us to talk about what made Chick tick, his theology, and why he's so beloved and despised (at the same time) by horror fans. You can find AH and Chelsey on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/americanhysteriapodcast/

For many, Labor Day is not much more than the end of summer movie season, a reason to have a cookout, or the symbolic beginning of the school year. It's the holiday we talk least about, in large part because the labor movement is one of the most underexamined areas of American history. So in honor of Labor Day, Kelly and John talked to Dr. Heath Carter, who has written extensively about the sometimes helpful, sometimes hostile role religion has played in driving the labor movement. Heath is an associate professor at Princeton Theological Seminary. He earned a BA in English and Theology from Georgetown University in 2003, an MA from the University of Chicago Divinity School in 2005, and a PhD in history from the University of Notre Dame in 2012. And he is the author of Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago, which was the runner up for the American Society of Church History's 2015 Brewer Prize, as well as the co-editor of three books: The Pew and the Picket Line: Christianity and the American Working Class, Turning Points in the History of American Evangelicalism, and A Documentary History of Religion in America, 4th Ed. He is currently working on a new book entitled On Earth as it is in Heaven: Social Christians and the Fight to End American Inequality, which retells the story of the American social gospel. You can find more about him at his website: https://heathwcarter.com/

Did you know A.I is not just the title of one of the best movies of the 21st century - it's a also a thing that's making a lot of news?? Well, we did, because we're very young and hip and with it. In this episode, we consider the implication of some of the emerging areas of A.I. - like ChatGPT - on religion. First, Kelly spent some time chatting with Jesus on two different platforms - a text based interface where users can ask Jesus questions and get text message responses (and can also ask the Devil questions...for a price!! *cue ominous music*) Second, John takes a look at the now defunct Way of the Future upstart religion, which had the goal of forming a benevolent relationship with our omniscient cyber overlords before they decide to go all SkyNet on us. We consider whether A.I. Jesus may replace tradition religious experiences, like prayer, and what religious movements that emerge around emerging technology, like Scientology and Heaven's Gate, tell us about religion itself.

It's Kelly's birthday (John's was yesterday...) and so we decided to talk to one of her favorites - Solomon Missouri, known to those in the know as Twitter's Pastor. In his own words, Rev. Solomon Missouri's ministry focuses on sexuality and spirituality outside and beyond church walls. We talk about how he stumbled into his role as Twitter's favorite spiritual leader, where Christianity is going, how he ministers to atheists who are still looking for community and support. You can find out more about his on his website here: https://www.solomonmissouri.com/ Rev. Missouri is also on all the social medias of note, including, of course (we still call it) Twitter @solomonmissouri

Dr. Bradley Onishi is the author of the recent Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next as well as the co-host of the podcast Straight White American Jesus, which focuses on the the state of Christian Nationalism from a variety of angles. He joined John and Kelly to talk about his book, his experience growing up in California and converting to evangelical Christianity (which he would later go on to leave), and where exactly we are in the fight for a secular democracy in America. You can find out more about Brad, his books, and the podcast at his website: https://www.bradonishi.com/