Podcasts about WebAuthn

Back after a hiatus for both BSidesSF and RSA, Seth and Ken recap their experience at both conferences. TL;DR - BSidesSF is great for technical security content and community, RSA focuses on sales for mostly large organizations and budgets. Two sides of the security industry coin and depends on preferences for which makes the most sense for career or business growth. This is followed by a short discussion on vibe coding educational security tools. Episode wraps with an article on MFA phishing and how WebAuthN helps prevent accidental exposure.

William Brown tells us all about how confusing and complicated the FIDO authentication universe is. He talks about WebAuthn implementation challenges to flaws in the FIDO metadata service that affect how hardware tokens are authenticated against. The conversation covers the spectrum of hardware security key quality, attestation mechanisms, and the barriers preventing open source developers from improving industry standards despite their expertise. The blog post for this episode can be found at https://opensourcesecurity.io/2025/2025-03-fido_auth_william_brown/

Today's episode is with Paul Klein, founder of Browserbase. We talked about building browser infrastructure for AI agents, the future of agent authentication, and their open source framework Stagehand.* [00:00:00] Introductions* [00:04:46] AI-specific challenges in browser infrastructure* [00:07:05] Multimodality in AI-Powered Browsing* [00:12:26] Running headless browsers at scale* [00:18:46] Geolocation when proxying* [00:21:25] CAPTCHAs and Agent Auth* [00:28:21] Building “User take over” functionality* [00:33:43] Stagehand: AI web browsing framework* [00:38:58] OpenAI's Operator and computer use agents* [00:44:44] Surprising use cases of Browserbase* [00:47:18] Future of browser automation and market competition* [00:53:11] Being a solo founderTranscriptAlessio [00:00:04]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we are very blessed to have our friends, Paul Klein, for the fourth, the fourth, CEO of Browserbase. Welcome.Paul [00:00:21]: Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. I've been lucky to know both of you for like a couple of years now, I think. So it's just like we're hanging out, you know, with three ginormous microphones in front of our face. It's totally normal hangout.swyx [00:00:34]: Yeah. We've actually mentioned you on the podcast, I think, more often than any other Solaris tenant. Just because like you're one of the, you know, best performing, I think, LLM tool companies that have started up in the last couple of years.Paul [00:00:50]: Yeah, I mean, it's been a whirlwind of a year, like Browserbase is actually pretty close to our first birthday. So we are one years old. And going from, you know, starting a company as a solo founder to... To, you know, having a team of 20 people, you know, a series A, but also being able to support hundreds of AI companies that are building AI applications that go out and automate the web. It's just been like, really cool. It's been happening a little too fast. I think like collectively as an AI industry, let's just take a week off together. I took my first vacation actually two weeks ago, and Operator came out on the first day, and then a week later, DeepSeat came out. And I'm like on vacation trying to chill. I'm like, we got to build with this stuff, right? So it's been a breakneck year. But I'm super happy to be here and like talk more about all the stuff we're seeing. And I'd love to hear kind of what you guys are excited about too, and share with it, you know?swyx [00:01:39]: Where to start? So people, you've done a bunch of podcasts. I think I strongly recommend Jack Bridger's Scaling DevTools, as well as Turner Novak's The Peel. And, you know, I'm sure there's others. So you covered your Twilio story in the past, talked about StreamClub, you got acquired to Mux, and then you left to start Browserbase. So maybe we just start with what is Browserbase? Yeah.Paul [00:02:02]: Browserbase is the web browser for your AI. We're building headless browser infrastructure, which are browsers that run in a server environment that's accessible to developers via APIs and SDKs. It's really hard to run a web browser in the cloud. You guys are probably running Chrome on your computers, and that's using a lot of resources, right? So if you want to run a web browser or thousands of web browsers, you can't just spin up a bunch of lambdas. You actually need to use a secure containerized environment. You have to scale it up and down. It's a stateful system. And that infrastructure is, like, super painful. And I know that firsthand, because at my last company, StreamClub, I was CTO, and I was building our own internal headless browser infrastructure. That's actually why we sold the company, is because Mux really wanted to buy our headless browser infrastructure that we'd built. And it's just a super hard problem. And I actually told my co-founders, I would never start another company unless it was a browser infrastructure company. And it turns out that's really necessary in the age of AI, when AI can actually go out and interact with websites, click on buttons, fill in forms. You need AI to do all of that work in an actual browser running somewhere on a server. And BrowserBase powers that.swyx [00:03:08]: While you're talking about it, it occurred to me, not that you're going to be acquired or anything, but it occurred to me that it would be really funny if you became the Nikita Beer of headless browser companies. You just have one trick, and you make browser companies that get acquired.Paul [00:03:23]: I truly do only have one trick. I'm screwed if it's not for headless browsers. I'm not a Go programmer. You know, I'm in AI grant. You know, browsers is an AI grant. But we were the only company in that AI grant batch that used zero dollars on AI spend. You know, we're purely an infrastructure company. So as much as people want to ask me about reinforcement learning, I might not be the best guy to talk about that. But if you want to ask about headless browser infrastructure at scale, I can talk your ear off. So that's really my area of expertise. And it's a pretty niche thing. Like, nobody has done what we're doing at scale before. So we're happy to be the experts.swyx [00:03:59]: You do have an AI thing, stagehand. We can talk about the sort of core of browser-based first, and then maybe stagehand. Yeah, stagehand is kind of the web browsing framework. Yeah.What is Browserbase? Headless Browser Infrastructure ExplainedAlessio [00:04:10]: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe how you got to browser-based and what problems you saw. So one of the first things I worked on as a software engineer was integration testing. Sauce Labs was kind of like the main thing at the time. And then we had Selenium, we had Playbrite, we had all these different browser things. But it's always been super hard to do. So obviously you've worked on this before. When you started browser-based, what were the challenges? What were the AI-specific challenges that you saw versus, there's kind of like all the usual running browser at scale in the cloud, which has been a problem for years. What are like the AI unique things that you saw that like traditional purchase just didn't cover? Yeah.AI-specific challenges in browser infrastructurePaul [00:04:46]: First and foremost, I think back to like the first thing I did as a developer, like as a kid when I was writing code, I wanted to write code that did stuff for me. You know, I wanted to write code to automate my life. And I do that probably by using curl or beautiful soup to fetch data from a web browser. And I think I still do that now that I'm in the cloud. And the other thing that I think is a huge challenge for me is that you can't just create a web site and parse that data. And we all know that now like, you know, taking HTML and plugging that into an LLM, you can extract insights, you can summarize. So it was very clear that now like dynamic web scraping became very possible with the rise of large language models or a lot easier. And that was like a clear reason why there's been more usage of headless browsers, which are necessary because a lot of modern websites don't expose all of their page content via a simple HTTP request. You know, they actually do require you to run this type of code for a specific time. JavaScript on the page to hydrate this. Airbnb is a great example. You go to airbnb.com. A lot of that content on the page isn't there until after they run the initial hydration. So you can't just scrape it with a curl. You need to have some JavaScript run. And a browser is that JavaScript engine that's going to actually run all those requests on the page. So web data retrieval was definitely one driver of starting BrowserBase and the rise of being able to summarize that within LLM. Also, I was familiar with if I wanted to automate a website, I could write one script and that would work for one website. It was very static and deterministic. But the web is non-deterministic. The web is always changing. And until we had LLMs, there was no way to write scripts that you could write once that would run on any website. That would change with the structure of the website. Click the login button. It could mean something different on many different websites. And LLMs allow us to generate code on the fly to actually control that. So I think that rise of writing the generic automation scripts that can work on many different websites, to me, made it clear that browsers are going to be a lot more useful because now you can automate a lot more things without writing. If you wanted to write a script to book a demo call on 100 websites, previously, you had to write 100 scripts. Now you write one script that uses LLMs to generate that script. That's why we built our web browsing framework, StageHand, which does a lot of that work for you. But those two things, web data collection and then enhanced automation of many different websites, it just felt like big drivers for more browser infrastructure that would be required to power these kinds of features.Alessio [00:07:05]: And was multimodality also a big thing?Paul [00:07:08]: Now you can use the LLMs to look, even though the text in the dome might not be as friendly. Maybe my hot take is I was always kind of like, I didn't think vision would be as big of a driver. For UI automation, I felt like, you know, HTML is structured text and large language models are good with structured text. But it's clear that these computer use models are often vision driven, and they've been really pushing things forward. So definitely being multimodal, like rendering the page is required to take a screenshot to give that to a computer use model to take actions on a website. And it's just another win for browser. But I'll be honest, that wasn't what I was thinking early on. I didn't even think that we'd get here so fast with multimodality. I think we're going to have to get back to multimodal and vision models.swyx [00:07:50]: This is one of those things where I forgot to mention in my intro that I'm an investor in Browserbase. And I remember that when you pitched to me, like a lot of the stuff that we have today, we like wasn't on the original conversation. But I did have my original thesis was something that we've talked about on the podcast before, which is take the GPT store, the custom GPT store, all the every single checkbox and plugin is effectively a startup. And this was the browser one. I think the main hesitation, I think I actually took a while to get back to you. The main hesitation was that there were others. Like you're not the first hit list browser startup. It's not even your first hit list browser startup. There's always a question of like, will you be the category winner in a place where there's a bunch of incumbents, to be honest, that are bigger than you? They're just not targeted at the AI space. They don't have the backing of Nat Friedman. And there's a bunch of like, you're here in Silicon Valley. They're not. I don't know.Paul [00:08:47]: I don't know if that's, that was it, but like, there was a, yeah, I mean, like, I think I tried all the other ones and I was like, really disappointed. Like my background is from working at great developer tools, companies, and nothing had like the Vercel like experience. Um, like our biggest competitor actually is partly owned by private equity and they just jacked up their prices quite a bit. And the dashboard hasn't changed in five years. And I actually used them at my last company and tried them and I was like, oh man, like there really just needs to be something that's like the experience of these great infrastructure companies, like Stripe, like clerk, like Vercel that I use in love, but oriented towards this kind of like more specific category, which is browser infrastructure, which is really technically complex. Like a lot of stuff can go wrong on the internet when you're running a browser. The internet is very vast. There's a lot of different configurations. Like there's still websites that only work with internet explorer out there. How do you handle that when you're running your own browser infrastructure? These are the problems that we have to think about and solve at BrowserBase. And it's, it's certainly a labor of love, but I built this for me, first and foremost, I know it's super cheesy and everyone says that for like their startups, but it really, truly was for me. If you look at like the talks I've done even before BrowserBase, and I'm just like really excited to try and build a category defining infrastructure company. And it's, it's rare to have a new category of infrastructure exists. We're here in the Chroma offices and like, you know, vector databases is a new category of infrastructure. Is it, is it, I mean, we can, we're in their office, so, you know, we can, we can debate that one later. That is one.Multimodality in AI-Powered Browsingswyx [00:10:16]: That's one of the industry debates.Paul [00:10:17]: I guess we go back to the LLMOS talk that Karpathy gave way long ago. And like the browser box was very clearly there and it seemed like the people who were building in this space also agreed that browsers are a core primitive of infrastructure for the LLMOS that's going to exist in the future. And nobody was building something there that I wanted to use. So I had to go build it myself.swyx [00:10:38]: Yeah. I mean, exactly that talk that, that honestly, that diagram, every box is a startup and there's the code box and then there's the. The browser box. I think at some point they will start clashing there. There's always the question of the, are you a point solution or are you the sort of all in one? And I think the point solutions tend to win quickly, but then the only ones have a very tight cohesive experience. Yeah. Let's talk about just the hard problems of browser base you have on your website, which is beautiful. Thank you. Was there an agency that you used for that? Yeah. Herb.paris.Paul [00:11:11]: They're amazing. Herb.paris. Yeah. It's H-E-R-V-E. I highly recommend for developers. Developer tools, founders to work with consumer agencies because they end up building beautiful things and the Parisians know how to build beautiful interfaces. So I got to give prep.swyx [00:11:24]: And chat apps, apparently are, they are very fast. Oh yeah. The Mistral chat. Yeah. Mistral. Yeah.Paul [00:11:31]: Late chat.swyx [00:11:31]: Late chat. And then your videos as well, it was professionally shot, right? The series A video. Yeah.Alessio [00:11:36]: Nico did the videos. He's amazing. Not the initial video that you shot at the new one. First one was Austin.Paul [00:11:41]: Another, another video pretty surprised. But yeah, I mean, like, I think when you think about how you talk about your company. You have to think about the way you present yourself. It's, you know, as a developer, you think you evaluate a company based on like the API reliability and the P 95, but a lot of developers say, is the website good? Is the message clear? Do I like trust this founder? I'm building my whole feature on. So I've tried to nail that as well as like the reliability of the infrastructure. You're right. It's very hard. And there's a lot of kind of foot guns that you run into when running headless browsers at scale. Right.Competing with Existing Headless Browser Solutionsswyx [00:12:10]: So let's pick one. You have eight features here. Seamless integration. Scalability. Fast or speed. Secure. Observable. Stealth. That's interesting. Extensible and developer first. What comes to your mind as like the top two, three hardest ones? Yeah.Running headless browsers at scalePaul [00:12:26]: I think just running headless browsers at scale is like the hardest one. And maybe can I nerd out for a second? Is that okay? I heard this is a technical audience, so I'll talk to the other nerds. Whoa. They were listening. Yeah. They're upset. They're ready. The AGI is angry. Okay. So. So how do you run a browser in the cloud? Let's start with that, right? So let's say you're using a popular browser automation framework like Puppeteer, Playwright, and Selenium. Maybe you've written a code, some code locally on your computer that opens up Google. It finds the search bar and then types in, you know, search for Latent Space and hits the search button. That script works great locally. You can see the little browser open up. You want to take that to production. You want to run the script in a cloud environment. So when your laptop is closed, your browser is doing something. The browser is doing something. Well, I, we use Amazon. You can see the little browser open up. You know, the first thing I'd reach for is probably like some sort of serverless infrastructure. I would probably try and deploy on a Lambda. But Chrome itself is too big to run on a Lambda. It's over 250 megabytes. So you can't easily start it on a Lambda. So you maybe have to use something like Lambda layers to squeeze it in there. Maybe use a different Chromium build that's lighter. And you get it on the Lambda. Great. It works. But it runs super slowly. It's because Lambdas are very like resource limited. They only run like with one vCPU. You can run one process at a time. Remember, Chromium is super beefy. It's barely running on my MacBook Air. I'm still downloading it from a pre-run. Yeah, from the test earlier, right? I'm joking. But it's big, you know? So like Lambda, it just won't work really well. Maybe it'll work, but you need something faster. Your users want something faster. Okay. Well, let's put it on a beefier instance. Let's get an EC2 server running. Let's throw Chromium on there. Great. Okay. I can, that works well with one user. But what if I want to run like 10 Chromium instances, one for each of my users? Okay. Well, I might need two EC2 instances. Maybe 10. All of a sudden, you have multiple EC2 instances. This sounds like a problem for Kubernetes and Docker, right? Now, all of a sudden, you're using ECS or EKS, the Kubernetes or container solutions by Amazon. You're spending up and down containers, and you're spending a whole engineer's time on kind of maintaining this stateful distributed system. Those are some of the worst systems to run because when it's a stateful distributed system, it means that you are bound by the connections to that thing. You have to keep the browser open while someone is working with it, right? That's just a painful architecture to run. And there's all this other little gotchas with Chromium, like Chromium, which is the open source version of Chrome, by the way. You have to install all these fonts. You want emojis working in your browsers because your vision model is looking for the emoji. You need to make sure you have the emoji fonts. You need to make sure you have all the right extensions configured, like, oh, do you want ad blocking? How do you configure that? How do you actually record all these browser sessions? Like it's a headless browser. You can't look at it. So you need to have some sort of observability. Maybe you're recording videos and storing those somewhere. It all kind of adds up to be this just giant monster piece of your project when all you wanted to do was run a lot of browsers in production for this little script to go to google.com and search. And when I see a complex distributed system, I see an opportunity to build a great infrastructure company. And we really abstract that away with Browserbase where our customers can use these existing frameworks, Playwright, Publisher, Selenium, or our own stagehand and connect to our browsers in a serverless-like way. And control them, and then just disconnect when they're done. And they don't have to think about the complex distributed system behind all of that. They just get a browser running anywhere, anytime. Really easy to connect to.swyx [00:15:55]: I'm sure you have questions. My standard question with anything, so essentially you're a serverless browser company, and there's been other serverless things that I'm familiar with in the past, serverless GPUs, serverless website hosting. That's where I come from with Netlify. One question is just like, you promised to spin up thousands of servers. You promised to spin up thousands of browsers in milliseconds. I feel like there's no real solution that does that yet. And I'm just kind of curious how. The only solution I know, which is to kind of keep a kind of warm pool of servers around, which is expensive, but maybe not so expensive because it's just CPUs. So I'm just like, you know. Yeah.Browsers as a Core Primitive in AI InfrastructurePaul [00:16:36]: You nailed it, right? I mean, how do you offer a serverless-like experience with something that is clearly not serverless, right? And the answer is, you need to be able to run... We run many browsers on single nodes. We use Kubernetes at browser base. So we have many pods that are being scheduled. We have to predictably schedule them up or down. Yes, thousands of browsers in milliseconds is the best case scenario. If you hit us with 10,000 requests, you may hit a slower cold start, right? So we've done a lot of work on predictive scaling and being able to kind of route stuff to different regions where we have multiple regions of browser base where we have different pools available. You can also pick the region you want to go to based on like lower latency, round trip, time latency. It's very important with these types of things. There's a lot of requests going over the wire. So for us, like having a VM like Firecracker powering everything under the hood allows us to be super nimble and spin things up or down really quickly with strong multi-tenancy. But in the end, this is like the complex infrastructural challenges that we have to kind of deal with at browser base. And we have a lot more stuff on our roadmap to allow customers to have more levers to pull to exchange, do you want really fast browser startup times or do you want really low costs? And if you're willing to be more flexible on that, we may be able to kind of like work better for your use cases.swyx [00:17:44]: Since you used Firecracker, shouldn't Fargate do that for you or did you have to go lower level than that? We had to go lower level than that.Paul [00:17:51]: I find this a lot with Fargate customers, which is alarming for Fargate. We used to be a giant Fargate customer. Actually, the first version of browser base was ECS and Fargate. And unfortunately, it's a great product. I think we were actually the largest Fargate customer in our region for a little while. No, what? Yeah, seriously. And unfortunately, it's a great product, but I think if you're an infrastructure company, you actually have to have a deeper level of control over these primitives. I think it's the same thing is true with databases. We've used other database providers and I think-swyx [00:18:21]: Yeah, serverless Postgres.Paul [00:18:23]: Shocker. When you're an infrastructure company, you're on the hook if any provider has an outage. And I can't tell my customers like, hey, we went down because so-and-so went down. That's not acceptable. So for us, we've really moved to bringing things internally. It's kind of opposite of what we preach. We tell our customers, don't build this in-house, but then we're like, we build a lot of stuff in-house. But I think it just really depends on what is in the critical path. We try and have deep ownership of that.Alessio [00:18:46]: On the distributed location side, how does that work for the web where you might get sort of different content in different locations, but the customer is expecting, you know, if you're in the US, I'm expecting the US version. But if you're spinning up my browser in France, I might get the French version. Yeah.Paul [00:19:02]: Yeah. That's a good question. Well, generally, like on the localization, there is a thing called locale in the browser. You can set like what your locale is. If you're like in the ENUS browser or not, but some things do IP, IP based routing. And in that case, you may want to have a proxy. Like let's say you're running something in the, in Europe, but you want to make sure you're showing up from the US. You may want to use one of our proxy features so you can turn on proxies to say like, make sure these connections always come from the United States, which is necessary too, because when you're browsing the web, you're coming from like a, you know, data center IP, and that can make things a lot harder to browse web. So we do have kind of like this proxy super network. Yeah. We have a proxy for you based on where you're going, so you can reliably automate the web. But if you get scheduled in Europe, that doesn't happen as much. We try and schedule you as close to, you know, your origin that you're trying to go to. But generally you have control over the regions you can put your browsers in. So you can specify West one or East one or Europe. We only have one region of Europe right now, actually. Yeah.Alessio [00:19:55]: What's harder, the browser or the proxy? I feel like to me, it feels like actually proxying reliably at scale. It's much harder than spending up browsers at scale. I'm curious. It's all hard.Paul [00:20:06]: It's layers of hard, right? Yeah. I think it's different levels of hard. I think the thing with the proxy infrastructure is that we work with many different web proxy providers and some are better than others. Some have good days, some have bad days. And our customers who've built browser infrastructure on their own, they have to go and deal with sketchy actors. Like first they figure out their own browser infrastructure and then they got to go buy a proxy. And it's like you can pay in Bitcoin and it just kind of feels a little sus, right? It's like you're buying drugs when you're trying to get a proxy online. We have like deep relationships with these counterparties. We're able to audit them and say, is this proxy being sourced ethically? Like it's not running on someone's TV somewhere. Is it free range? Yeah. Free range organic proxies, right? Right. We do a level of diligence. We're SOC 2. So we have to understand what is going on here. But then we're able to make sure that like we route around proxy providers not working. There's proxy providers who will just, the proxy will stop working all of a sudden. And then if you don't have redundant proxying on your own browsers, that's hard down for you or you may get some serious impacts there. With us, like we intelligently know, hey, this proxy is not working. Let's go to this one. And you can kind of build a network of multiple providers to really guarantee the best uptime for our customers. Yeah. So you don't own any proxies? We don't own any proxies. You're right. The team has been saying who wants to like take home a little proxy server, but not yet. We're not there yet. You know?swyx [00:21:25]: It's a very mature market. I don't think you should build that yourself. Like you should just be a super customer of them. Yeah. Scraping, I think, is the main use case for that. I guess. Well, that leads us into CAPTCHAs and also off, but let's talk about CAPTCHAs. You had a little spiel that you wanted to talk about CAPTCHA stuff.Challenges of Scaling Browser InfrastructurePaul [00:21:43]: Oh, yeah. I was just, I think a lot of people ask, if you're thinking about proxies, you're thinking about CAPTCHAs too. I think it's the same thing. You can go buy CAPTCHA solvers online, but it's the same buying experience. It's some sketchy website, you have to integrate it. It's not fun to buy these things and you can't really trust that the docs are bad. What Browserbase does is we integrate a bunch of different CAPTCHAs. We do some stuff in-house, but generally we just integrate with a bunch of known vendors and continually monitor and maintain these things and say, is this working or not? Can we route around it or not? These are CAPTCHA solvers. CAPTCHA solvers, yeah. Not CAPTCHA providers, CAPTCHA solvers. Yeah, sorry. CAPTCHA solvers. We really try and make sure all of that works for you. I think as a dev, if I'm buying infrastructure, I want it all to work all the time and it's important for us to provide that experience by making sure everything does work and monitoring it on our own. Yeah. Right now, the world of CAPTCHAs is tricky. I think AI agents in particular are very much ahead of the internet infrastructure. CAPTCHAs are designed to block all types of bots, but there are now good bots and bad bots. I think in the future, CAPTCHAs will be able to identify who a good bot is, hopefully via some sort of KYC. For us, we've been very lucky. We have very little to no known abuse of Browserbase because we really look into who we work with. And for certain types of CAPTCHA solving, we only allow them on certain types of plans because we want to make sure that we can know what people are doing, what their use cases are. And that's really allowed us to try and be an arbiter of good bots, which is our long term goal. I want to build great relationships with people like Cloudflare so we can agree, hey, here are these acceptable bots. We'll identify them for you and make sure we flag when they come to your website. This is a good bot, you know?Alessio [00:23:23]: I see. And Cloudflare said they want to do more of this. So they're going to set by default, if they think you're an AI bot, they're going to reject. I'm curious if you think this is something that is going to be at the browser level or I mean, the DNS level with Cloudflare seems more where it should belong. But I'm curious how you think about it.Paul [00:23:40]: I think the web's going to change. You know, I think that the Internet as we have it right now is going to change. And we all need to just accept that the cat is out of the bag. And instead of kind of like wishing the Internet was like it was in the 2000s, we can have free content line that wouldn't be scraped. It's just it's not going to happen. And instead, we should think about like, one, how can we change? How can we change the models of, you know, information being published online so people can adequately commercialize it? But two, how do we rebuild applications that expect that AI agents are going to log in on their behalf? Those are the things that are going to allow us to kind of like identify good and bad bots. And I think the team at Clerk has been doing a really good job with this on the authentication side. I actually think that auth is the biggest thing that will prevent agents from accessing stuff, not captchas. And I think there will be agent auth in the future. I don't know if it's going to happen from an individual company, but actually authentication providers that have a, you know, hidden login as agent feature, which will then you put in your email, you'll get a push notification, say like, hey, your browser-based agent wants to log into your Airbnb. You can approve that and then the agent can proceed. That really circumvents the need for captchas or logging in as you and sharing your password. I think agent auth is going to be one way we identify good bots going forward. And I think a lot of this captcha solving stuff is really short-term problems as the internet kind of reorients itself around how it's going to work with agents browsing the web, just like people do. Yeah.Managing Distributed Browser Locations and Proxiesswyx [00:24:59]: Stitch recently was on Hacker News for talking about agent experience, AX, which is a thing that Netlify is also trying to clone and coin and talk about. And we've talked about this on our previous episodes before in a sense that I actually think that's like maybe the only part of the tech stack that needs to be kind of reinvented for agents. Everything else can stay the same, CLIs, APIs, whatever. But auth, yeah, we need agent auth. And it's mostly like short-lived, like it should not, it should be a distinct, identity from the human, but paired. I almost think like in the same way that every social network should have your main profile and then your alt accounts or your Finsta, it's almost like, you know, every, every human token should be paired with the agent token and the agent token can go and do stuff on behalf of the human token, but not be presumed to be the human. Yeah.Paul [00:25:48]: It's like, it's, it's actually very similar to OAuth is what I'm thinking. And, you know, Thread from Stitch is an investor, Colin from Clerk, Octaventures, all investors in browser-based because like, I hope they solve this because they'll make browser-based submission more possible. So we don't have to overcome all these hurdles, but I think it will be an OAuth-like flow where an agent will ask to log in as you, you'll approve the scopes. Like it can book an apartment on Airbnb, but it can't like message anybody. And then, you know, the agent will have some sort of like role-based access control within an application. Yeah. I'm excited for that.swyx [00:26:16]: The tricky part is just, there's one, one layer of delegation here, which is like, you're authoring my user's user or something like that. I don't know if that's tricky or not. Does that make sense? Yeah.Paul [00:26:25]: You know, actually at Twilio, I worked on the login identity and access. Management teams, right? So like I built Twilio's login page.swyx [00:26:31]: You were an intern on that team and then you became the lead in two years? Yeah.Paul [00:26:34]: Yeah. I started as an intern in 2016 and then I was the tech lead of that team. How? That's not normal. I didn't have a life. He's not normal. Look at this guy. I didn't have a girlfriend. I just loved my job. I don't know. I applied to 500 internships for my first job and I got rejected from every single one of them except for Twilio and then eventually Amazon. And they took a shot on me and like, I was getting paid money to write code, which was my dream. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very lucky that like this coding thing worked out because I was going to be doing it regardless. And yeah, I was able to kind of spend a lot of time on a team that was growing at a company that was growing. So it informed a lot of this stuff here. I think these are problems that have been solved with like the SAML protocol with SSO. I think it's a really interesting stuff with like WebAuthn, like these different types of authentication, like schemes that you can use to authenticate people. The tooling is all there. It just needs to be tweaked a little bit to work for agents. And I think the fact that there are companies that are already. Providing authentication as a service really sets it up. Well, the thing that's hard is like reinventing the internet for agents. We don't want to rebuild the internet. That's an impossible task. And I think people often say like, well, we'll have this second layer of APIs built for agents. I'm like, we will for the top use cases, but instead of we can just tweak the internet as is, which is on the authentication side, I think we're going to be the dumb ones going forward. Unfortunately, I think AI is going to be able to do a lot of the tasks that we do online, which means that it will be able to go to websites, click buttons on our behalf and log in on our behalf too. So with this kind of like web agent future happening, I think with some small structural changes, like you said, it feels like it could all slot in really nicely with the existing internet.Handling CAPTCHAs and Agent Authenticationswyx [00:28:08]: There's one more thing, which is the, your live view iframe, which lets you take, take control. Yeah. Obviously very key for operator now, but like, was, is there anything interesting technically there or that the people like, well, people always want this.Paul [00:28:21]: It was really hard to build, you know, like, so, okay. Headless browsers, you don't see them, right. They're running. They're running in a cloud somewhere. You can't like look at them. And I just want to really make, it's a weird name. I wish we came up with a better name for this thing, but you can't see them. Right. But customers don't trust AI agents, right. At least the first pass. So what we do with our live view is that, you know, when you use browser base, you can actually embed a live view of the browser running in the cloud for your customer to see it working. And that's what the first reason is the build trust, like, okay, so I have this script. That's going to go automate a website. I can embed it into my web application via an iframe and my customer can watch. I think. And then we added two way communication. So now not only can you watch the browser kind of being operated by AI, if you want to pause and actually click around type within this iframe that's controlling a browser, that's also possible. And this is all thanks to some of the lower level protocol, which is called the Chrome DevTools protocol. It has a API called start screencast, and you can also send mouse clicks and button clicks to a remote browser. And this is all embeddable within iframes. You have a browser within a browser, yo. And then you simulate the screen, the click on the other side. Exactly. And this is really nice often for, like, let's say, a capture that can't be solved. You saw this with Operator, you know, Operator actually uses a different approach. They use VNC. So, you know, you're able to see, like, you're seeing the whole window here. What we're doing is something a little lower level with the Chrome DevTools protocol. It's just PNGs being streamed over the wire. But the same thing is true, right? Like, hey, I'm running a window. Pause. Can you do something in this window? Human. Okay, great. Resume. Like sometimes 2FA tokens. Like if you get that text message, you might need a person to type that in. Web agents need human-in-the-loop type workflows still. You still need a person to interact with the browser. And building a UI to proxy that is kind of hard. You may as well just show them the whole browser and say, hey, can you finish this up for me? And then let the AI proceed on afterwards. Is there a future where I stream my current desktop to browser base? I don't think so. I think we're very much cloud infrastructure. Yeah. You know, but I think a lot of the stuff we're doing, we do want to, like, build tools. Like, you know, we'll talk about the stage and, you know, web agent framework in a second. But, like, there's a case where a lot of people are going desktop first for, you know, consumer use. And I think cloud is doing a lot of this, where I expect to see, you know, MCPs really oriented around the cloud desktop app for a reason, right? Like, I think a lot of these tools are going to run on your computer because it makes... I think it's breaking out. People are putting it on a server. Oh, really? Okay. Well, sweet. We'll see. We'll see that. I was surprised, though, wasn't I? I think that the browser company, too, with Dia Browser, it runs on your machine. You know, it's going to be...swyx [00:30:50]: What is it?Paul [00:30:51]: So, Dia Browser, as far as I understand... I used to use Arc. Yeah. I haven't used Arc. But I'm a big fan of the browser company. I think they're doing a lot of cool stuff in consumer. As far as I understand, it's a browser where you have a sidebar where you can, like, chat with it and it can control the local browser on your machine. So, if you imagine, like, what a consumer web agent is, which it lives alongside your browser, I think Google Chrome has Project Marina, I think. I almost call it Project Marinara for some reason. I don't know why. It's...swyx [00:31:17]: No, I think it's someone really likes the Waterworld. Oh, I see. The classic Kevin Costner. Yeah.Paul [00:31:22]: Okay. Project Marinara is a similar thing to the Dia Browser, in my mind, as far as I understand it. You have a browser that has an AI interface that will take over your mouse and keyboard and control the browser for you. Great for consumer use cases. But if you're building applications that rely on a browser and it's more part of a greater, like, AI app experience, you probably need something that's more like infrastructure, not a consumer app.swyx [00:31:44]: Just because I have explored a little bit in this area, do people want branching? So, I have the state. Of whatever my browser's in. And then I want, like, 100 clones of this state. Do people do that? Or...Paul [00:31:56]: People don't do it currently. Yeah. But it's definitely something we're thinking about. I think the idea of forking a browser is really cool. Technically, kind of hard. We're starting to see this in code execution, where people are, like, forking some, like, code execution, like, processes or forking some tool calls or branching tool calls. Haven't seen it at the browser level yet. But it makes sense. Like, if an AI agent is, like, using a website and it's not sure what path it wants to take to crawl this website. To find the information it's looking for. It would make sense for it to explore both paths in parallel. And that'd be a very, like... A road not taken. Yeah. And hopefully find the right answer. And then say, okay, this was actually the right one. And memorize that. And go there in the future. On the roadmap. For sure. Don't make my roadmap, please. You know?Alessio [00:32:37]: How do you actually do that? Yeah. How do you fork? I feel like the browser is so stateful for so many things.swyx [00:32:42]: Serialize the state. Restore the state. I don't know.Paul [00:32:44]: So, it's one of the reasons why we haven't done it yet. It's hard. You know? Like, to truly fork, it's actually quite difficult. The naive way is to open the same page in a new tab and then, like, hope that it's at the same thing. But if you have a form halfway filled, you may have to, like, take the whole, you know, container. Pause it. All the memory. Duplicate it. Restart it from there. It could be very slow. So, we haven't found a thing. Like, the easy thing to fork is just, like, copy the page object. You know? But I think there needs to be something a little bit more robust there. Yeah.swyx [00:33:12]: So, MorphLabs has this infinite branch thing. Like, wrote a custom fork of Linux or something that let them save the system state and clone it. MorphLabs, hit me up. I'll be a customer. Yeah. That's the only. I think that's the only way to do it. Yeah. Like, unless Chrome has some special API for you. Yeah.Paul [00:33:29]: There's probably something we'll reverse engineer one day. I don't know. Yeah.Alessio [00:33:32]: Let's talk about StageHand, the AI web browsing framework. You have three core components, Observe, Extract, and Act. Pretty clean landing page. What was the idea behind making a framework? Yeah.Stagehand: AI web browsing frameworkPaul [00:33:43]: So, there's three frameworks that are very popular or already exist, right? Puppeteer, Playwright, Selenium. Those are for building hard-coded scripts to control websites. And as soon as I started to play with LLMs plus browsing, I caught myself, you know, code-genning Playwright code to control a website. I would, like, take the DOM. I'd pass it to an LLM. I'd say, can you generate the Playwright code to click the appropriate button here? And it would do that. And I was like, this really should be part of the frameworks themselves. And I became really obsessed with SDKs that take natural language as part of, like, the API input. And that's what StageHand is. StageHand exposes three APIs, and it's a super set of Playwright. So, if you go to a page, you may want to take an action, click on the button, fill in the form, etc. That's what the act command is for. You may want to extract some data. This one takes a natural language, like, extract the winner of the Super Bowl from this page. You can give it a Zod schema, so it returns a structured output. And then maybe you're building an API. You can do an agent loop, and you want to kind of see what actions are possible on this page before taking one. You can do observe. So, you can observe the actions on the page, and it will generate a list of actions. You can guide it, like, give me actions on this page related to buying an item. And you can, like, buy it now, add to cart, view shipping options, and pass that to an LLM, an agent loop, to say, what's the appropriate action given this high-level goal? So, StageHand isn't a web agent. It's a framework for building web agents. And we think that agent loops are actually pretty close to the application layer because every application probably has different goals or different ways it wants to take steps. I don't think I've seen a generic. Maybe you guys are the experts here. I haven't seen, like, a really good AI agent framework here. Everyone kind of has their own special sauce, right? I see a lot of developers building their own agent loops, and they're using tools. And I view StageHand as the browser tool. So, we expose act, extract, observe. Your agent can call these tools. And from that, you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry about generating playwright code performantly. You don't have to worry about running it. You can kind of just integrate these three tool calls into your agent loop and reliably automate the web.swyx [00:35:48]: A special shout-out to Anirudh, who I met at your dinner, who I think listens to the pod. Yeah. Hey, Anirudh.Paul [00:35:54]: Anirudh's a man. He's a StageHand guy.swyx [00:35:56]: I mean, the interesting thing about each of these APIs is they're kind of each startup. Like, specifically extract, you know, Firecrawler is extract. There's, like, Expand AI. There's a whole bunch of, like, extract companies. They just focus on extract. I'm curious. Like, I feel like you guys are going to collide at some point. Like, right now, it's friendly. Everyone's in a blue ocean. At some point, it's going to be valuable enough that there's some turf battle here. I don't think you have a dog in a fight. I think you can mock extract to use an external service if they're better at it than you. But it's just an observation that, like, in the same way that I see each option, each checkbox in the side of custom GBTs becoming a startup or each box in the Karpathy chart being a startup. Like, this is also becoming a thing. Yeah.Paul [00:36:41]: I mean, like, so the way StageHand works is that it's MIT-licensed, completely open source. You bring your own API key to your LLM of choice. You could choose your LLM. We don't make any money off of the extract or really. We only really make money if you choose to run it with our browser. You don't have to. You can actually use your own browser, a local browser. You know, StageHand is completely open source for that reason. And, yeah, like, I think if you're building really complex web scraping workflows, I don't know if StageHand is the tool for you. I think it's really more if you're building an AI agent that needs a few general tools or if it's doing a lot of, like, web automation-intensive work. But if you're building a scraping company, StageHand is not your thing. You probably want something that's going to, like, get HTML content, you know, convert that to Markdown, query it. That's not what StageHand does. StageHand is more about reliability. I think we focus a lot on reliability and less so on cost optimization and speed at this point.swyx [00:37:33]: I actually feel like StageHand, so the way that StageHand works, it's like, you know, page.act, click on the quick start. Yeah. It's kind of the integration test for the code that you would have to write anyway, like the Puppeteer code that you have to write anyway. And when the page structure changes, because it always does, then this is still the test. This is still the test that I would have to write. Yeah. So it's kind of like a testing framework that doesn't need implementation detail.Paul [00:37:56]: Well, yeah. I mean, Puppeteer, Playwright, and Slenderman were all designed as testing frameworks, right? Yeah. And now people are, like, hacking them together to automate the web. I would say, and, like, maybe this is, like, me being too specific. But, like, when I write tests, if the page structure changes. Without me knowing, I want that test to fail. So I don't know if, like, AI, like, regenerating that. Like, people are using StageHand for testing. But it's more for, like, usability testing, not, like, testing of, like, does the front end, like, has it changed or not. Okay. But generally where we've seen people, like, really, like, take off is, like, if they're using, you know, something. If they want to build a feature in their application that's kind of like Operator or Deep Research, they're using StageHand to kind of power that tool calling in their own agent loop. Okay. Cool.swyx [00:38:37]: So let's go into Operator, the first big agent launch of the year from OpenAI. Seems like they have a whole bunch scheduled. You were on break and your phone blew up. What's your just general view of computer use agents is what they're calling it. The overall category before we go into Open Operator, just the overall promise of Operator. I will observe that I tried it once. It was okay. And I never tried it again.OpenAI's Operator and computer use agentsPaul [00:38:58]: That tracks with my experience, too. Like, I'm a huge fan of the OpenAI team. Like, I think that I do not view Operator as the company. I'm not a company killer for browser base at all. I think it actually shows people what's possible. I think, like, computer use models make a lot of sense. And I'm actually most excited about computer use models is, like, their ability to, like, really take screenshots and reasoning and output steps. I think that using mouse click or mouse coordinates, I've seen that proved to be less reliable than I would like. And I just wonder if that's the right form factor. What we've done with our framework is anchor it to the DOM itself, anchor it to the actual item. So, like, if it's clicking on something, it's clicking on that thing, you know? Like, it's more accurate. No matter where it is. Yeah, exactly. Because it really ties in nicely. And it can handle, like, the whole viewport in one go, whereas, like, Operator can only handle what it sees. Can you hover? Is hovering a thing that you can do? I don't know if we expose it as a tool directly, but I'm sure there's, like, an API for hovering. Like, move mouse to this position. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you can trigger hover, like, via, like, the JavaScript on the DOM itself. But, no, I think, like, when we saw computer use, everyone's eyes lit up because they realized, like, wow, like, AI is going to actually automate work for people. And I think seeing that kind of happen from both of the labs, and I'm sure we're going to see more labs launch computer use models, I'm excited to see all the stuff that people build with it. I think that I'd love to see computer use power, like, controlling a browser on browser base. And I think, like, Open Operator, which was, like, our open source version of OpenAI's Operator, was our first take on, like, how can we integrate these models into browser base? And we handle the infrastructure and let the labs do the models. I don't have a sense that Operator will be released as an API. I don't know. Maybe it will. I'm curious to see how well that works because I think it's going to be really hard for a company like OpenAI to do things like support CAPTCHA solving or, like, have proxies. Like, I think it's hard for them structurally. Imagine this New York Times headline, OpenAI CAPTCHA solving. Like, that would be a pretty bad headline, this New York Times headline. Browser base solves CAPTCHAs. No one cares. No one cares. And, like, our investors are bored. Like, we're all okay with this, you know? We're building this company knowing that the CAPTCHA solving is short-lived until we figure out how to authenticate good bots. I think it's really hard for a company like OpenAI, who has this brand that's so, so good, to balance with, like, the icky parts of web automation, which it can be kind of complex to solve. I'm sure OpenAI knows who to call whenever they need you. Yeah, right. I'm sure they'll have a great partnership.Alessio [00:41:23]: And is Open Operator just, like, a marketing thing for you? Like, how do you think about resource allocation? So, you can spin this up very quickly. And now there's all this, like, open deep research, just open all these things that people are building. We started it, you know. You're the original Open. We're the original Open operator, you know? Is it just, hey, look, this is a demo, but, like, we'll help you build out an actual product for yourself? Like, are you interested in going more of a product route? That's kind of the OpenAI way, right? They started as a model provider and then…Paul [00:41:53]: Yeah, we're not interested in going the product route yet. I view Open Operator as a model provider. It's a reference project, you know? Let's show people how to build these things using the infrastructure and models that are out there. And that's what it is. It's, like, Open Operator is very simple. It's an agent loop. It says, like, take a high-level goal, break it down into steps, use tool calling to accomplish those steps. It takes screenshots and feeds those screenshots into an LLM with the step to generate the right action. It uses stagehand under the hood to actually execute this action. It doesn't use a computer use model. And it, like, has a nice interface using the live view that we talked about, the iframe, to embed that into an application. So I felt like people on launch day wanted to figure out how to build their own version of this. And we turned that around really quickly to show them. And I hope we do that with other things like deep research. We don't have a deep research launch yet. I think David from AOMNI actually has an amazing open deep research that he launched. It has, like, 10K GitHub stars now. So he's crushing that. But I think if people want to build these features natively into their application, they need good reference projects. And I think Open Operator is a good example of that.swyx [00:42:52]: I don't know. Actually, I'm actually pretty bullish on API-driven operator. Because that's the only way that you can sort of, like, once it's reliable enough, obviously. And now we're nowhere near. But, like, give it five years. It'll happen, you know. And then you can sort of spin this up and browsers are working in the background and you don't necessarily have to know. And it just is booking restaurants for you, whatever. I can definitely see that future happening. I had this on the landing page here. This might be a slightly out of order. But, you know, you have, like, sort of three use cases for browser base. Open Operator. Or this is the operator sort of use case. It's kind of like the workflow automation use case. And it completes with UiPath in the sort of RPA category. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I would agree with that. And then there's Agents we talked about already. And web scraping, which I imagine would be the bulk of your workload right now, right?Paul [00:43:40]: No, not at all. I'd say actually, like, the majority is browser automation. We're kind of expensive for web scraping. Like, I think that if you're building a web scraping product, if you need to do occasional web scraping or you have to do web scraping that works every single time, you want to use browser automation. Yeah. You want to use browser-based. But if you're building web scraping workflows, what you should do is have a waterfall. You should have the first request is a curl to the website. See if you can get it without even using a browser. And then the second request may be, like, a scraping-specific API. There's, like, a thousand scraping APIs out there that you can use to try and get data. Scraping B. Scraping B is a great example, right? Yeah. And then, like, if those two don't work, bring out the heavy hitter. Like, browser-based will 100% work, right? It will load the page in a real browser, hydrate it. I see.swyx [00:44:21]: Because a lot of people don't render to JS.swyx [00:44:25]: Yeah, exactly.Paul [00:44:26]: So, I mean, the three big use cases, right? Like, you know, automation, web data collection, and then, you know, if you're building anything agentic that needs, like, a browser tool, you want to use browser-based.Alessio [00:44:35]: Is there any use case that, like, you were super surprised by that people might not even think about? Oh, yeah. Or is it, yeah, anything that you can share? The long tail is crazy. Yeah.Surprising use cases of BrowserbasePaul [00:44:44]: One of the case studies on our website that I think is the most interesting is this company called Benny. So, the way that it works is if you're on food stamps in the United States, you can actually get rebates if you buy certain things. Yeah. You buy some vegetables. You submit your receipt to the government. They'll give you a little rebate back. Say, hey, thanks for buying vegetables. It's good for you. That process of submitting that receipt is very painful. And the way Benny works is you use their app to take a photo of your receipt, and then Benny will go submit that receipt for you and then deposit the money into your account. That's actually using no AI at all. It's all, like, hard-coded scripts. They maintain the scripts. They've been doing a great job. And they build this amazing consumer app. But it's an example of, like, all these, like, tedious workflows that people have to do to kind of go about their business. And they're doing it for the sake of their day-to-day lives. And I had never known about, like, food stamp rebates or the complex forms you have to do to fill them. But the world is powered by millions and millions of tedious forms, visas. You know, Emirate Lighthouse is a customer, right? You know, they do the O1 visa. Millions and millions of forms are taking away humans' time. And I hope that Browserbase can help power software that automates away the web forms that we don't need anymore. Yeah.swyx [00:45:49]: I mean, I'm very supportive of that. I mean, forms. I do think, like, government itself is a big part of it. I think the government itself should embrace AI more to do more sort of human-friendly form filling. Mm-hmm. But I'm not optimistic. I'm not holding my breath. Yeah. We'll see. Okay. I think I'm about to zoom out. I have a little brief thing on computer use, and then we can talk about founder stuff, which is, I tend to think of developer tooling markets in impossible triangles, where everyone starts in a niche, and then they start to branch out. So I already hinted at a little bit of this, right? We mentioned more. We mentioned E2B. We mentioned Firecrawl. And then there's Browserbase. So there's, like, all this stuff of, like, have serverless virtual computer that you give to an agent and let them do stuff with it. And there's various ways of connecting it to the internet. You can just connect to a search API, like SERP API, whatever other, like, EXA is another one. That's what you're searching. You can also have a JSON markdown extractor, which is Firecrawl. Or you can have a virtual browser like Browserbase, or you can have a virtual machine like Morph. And then there's also maybe, like, a virtual sort of code environment, like Code Interpreter. So, like, there's just, like, a bunch of different ways to tackle the problem of give a computer to an agent. And I'm just kind of wondering if you see, like, everyone's just, like, happily coexisting in their respective niches. And as a developer, I just go and pick, like, a shopping basket of one of each. Or do you think that you eventually, people will collide?Future of browser automation and market competitionPaul [00:47:18]: I think that currently it's not a zero-sum market. Like, I think we're talking about... I think we're talking about all of knowledge work that people do that can be automated online. All of these, like, trillions of hours that happen online where people are working. And I think that there's so much software to be built that, like, I tend not to think about how these companies will collide. I just try to solve the problem as best as I can and make this specific piece of infrastructure, which I think is an important primitive, the best I possibly can. And yeah. I think there's players that are actually going to like it. I think there's players that are going to launch, like, over-the-top, you know, platforms, like agent platforms that have all these tools built in, right? Like, who's building the rippling for agent tools that has the search tool, the browser tool, the operating system tool, right? There are some. There are some. There are some, right? And I think in the end, what I have seen as my time as a developer, and I look at all the favorite tools that I have, is that, like, for tools and primitives with sufficient levels of complexity, you need to have a solution that's really bespoke to that primitive, you know? And I am sufficiently convinced that the browser is complex enough to deserve a primitive. Obviously, I have to. I'm the founder of BrowserBase, right? I'm talking my book. But, like, I think maybe I can give you one spicy take against, like, maybe just whole OS running. I think that when I look at computer use when it first came out, I saw that the majority of use cases for computer use were controlling a browser. And do we really need to run an entire operating system just to control a browser? I don't think so. I don't think that's necessary. You know, BrowserBase can run browsers for way cheaper than you can if you're running a full-fledged OS with a GUI, you know, operating system. And I think that's just an advantage of the browser. It is, like, browsers are little OSs, and you can run them very efficiently if you orchestrate it well. And I think that allows us to offer 90% of the, you know, functionality in the platform needed at 10% of the cost of running a full OS. Yeah.Open Operator: Browserbase's Open-Source Alternativeswyx [00:49:16]: I definitely see the logic in that. There's a Mark Andreessen quote. I don't know if you know this one. Where he basically observed that the browser is turning the operating system into a poorly debugged set of device drivers, because most of the apps are moved from the OS to the browser. So you can just run browsers.Paul [00:49:31]: There's a place for OSs, too. Like, I think that there are some applications that only run on Windows operating systems. And Eric from pig.dev in this upcoming YC batch, or last YC batch, like, he's building all run tons of Windows operating systems for you to control with your agent. And like, there's some legacy EHR systems that only run on Internet-controlled systems. Yeah.Paul [00:49:54]: I think that's it. I think, like, there are use cases for specific operating systems for specific legacy software. And like, I'm excited to see what he does with that. I just wanted to give a shout out to the pig.dev website.swyx [00:50:06]: The pigs jump when you click on them. Yeah. That's great.Paul [00:50:08]: Eric, he's the former co-founder of banana.dev, too.swyx [00:50:11]: Oh, that Eric. Yeah. That Eric. Okay. Well, he abandoned bananas for pigs. I hope he doesn't start going around with pigs now.Alessio [00:50:18]: Like he was going around with bananas. A little toy pig. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What else are we missing? I think we covered a lot of, like, the browser-based product history, but. What do you wish people asked you? Yeah.Paul [00:50:29]: I wish people asked me more about, like, what will the future of software look like? Because I think that's really where I've spent a lot of time about why do browser-based. Like, for me, starting a company is like a means of last resort. Like, you shouldn't start a company unless you absolutely have to. And I remain convinced that the future of software is software that you're going to click a button and it's going to do stuff on your behalf. Right now, software. You click a button and it maybe, like, calls it back an API and, like, computes some numbers. It, like, modifies some text, whatever. But the future of software is software using software. So, I may log into my accounting website for my business, click a button, and it's going to go load up my Gmail, search my emails, find the thing, upload the receipt, and then comment it for me. Right? And it may use it using APIs, maybe a browser. I don't know. I think it's a little bit of both. But that's completely different from how we've built software so far. And that's. I think that future of software has different infrastructure requirements. It's going to require different UIs. It's going to require different pieces of infrastructure. I think the browser infrastructure is one piece that fits into that, along with all the other categories you mentioned. So, I think that it's going to require developers to think differently about how they've built software for, you know

Today on Elixir Wizards, Owen Bickford, fellow Wizard and creator of the WebauthnComponents library, joins us to talk about building passwordless authentication for Phoenix LiveView applications. Owen walks us through the evolution of authentication—touching on everything from plain text passwords to multi-factor setups—and explains the security flaws and user experience issues each method presents. He describes passkeys, a solution based on the WebAuthn API, which improves security and ease of use. The conversation covers cross-device support for passkeys, the role of password managers in keeping credentials synced, and ideas for enhancing WebauthnComponents, like supporting multiple passkeys per account. Owen invites listeners to contribute to the library's development on GitHub and emphasizes the role passkeys play in improving app security and user experience. Topics discussed in this episode: Passkeys and the shift toward passwordless authentication WebAuthn API and its role in secure login systems Creating the WebauthnComponents library for Phoenix LiveView History of authentication from basic passwords to multi-factor approaches Security gaps and user experience challenges with traditional methods Asymmetric cryptography's impact on secure logins Hardware-based credential storage and generation with Trusted Platform Modules Structure and components of the WebAuthn library: dependencies, LiveViews, and Ecto schemas Live components for real-time server-browser interactions Passkeys as a primary or secondary authentication method Key business considerations when choosing authentication methods Cross-device support for passkeys and credential syncing Strategies for passkey recovery if devices are lost Ensuring secure access in unattended environments Elixir's ecosystem advantages for building authentication systems Simplifying JavaScript complexity within Elixir projects Future-proofing WebAuthn Components for seamless updates Using Igniter to enhance customization and refactoring Developer-friendly tools for secure authentication Inviting community contributions on GitHub and the Elixir forum Plans for telemetry and performance tracking Why adopting passkeys is a win for app security and user experience Links mentioned: https://github.com/liveshowy/webauthncomponents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt(cryptography) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbowtable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factorauthentication https://oauth.net/2/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/WebAuthenticationAPI https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn-3/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/tips/windows-hello https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/resource/trusted-platform-module-tpm-summary/ https://hexdocs.pm/phoenix/mixphxgenauth.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-keycryptography SSH Protocol (Secure Shell) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecureShell https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-5-overview/ https://fidoalliance.org/how-fido-works/ https://1password.com/ https://keepassxc.org/ https://hexdocs.pm/ectoulid/Ecto.ULID.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universallyuniqueidentifier https://hexdocs.pm/ecto/Ecto.Schema.html https://hexdocs.pm/sourceror/ https://github.com/ash-project/igniter Forum thread: https://elixirforum.com/t/webauthnlivecomponent-passwordless-auth-for-liveview-apps/49941

WebAuthn arrived last year with great fanfare. But here we are in the latter half of 2024, and they are rarely used. In this episode we discuss why.

Passwords and Bitwarden news. Sgoti talks about passwords and Bitwarden. TAGS: Bitwarden, Passwords, News Source: Bitwarden adds a new auto-fill option right inside form fields Highly requested by the Bitwarden community, the new inline autofill menu greatly enhances the user experience, enabling users to fill login credentials faster than ever. Extensive third-party penetration testing was conducted to identify security gaps prior to release. Source: How password security best practices safeguard against ransomware Passkeys prevent the reuse of passwords across services or platforms because they are created uniquely to each user and service. Thanks to encrypted authentication protocols like WebAuthn, passkeys offer protection against phishing attacks, one of the most common initiation points for breaches and ransomware attacks. Source: hpr4047 :: Change your passwords once in a while License: Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.

SimpleWebAuthn is an open source TypeScript-centric pair of libraries – frontend and backend – that make it easier for devs to implement WebAuthn on the web. Matthew Miller started the project in 2019 and it has grown in tandem with the popularization of WebAuthn. He joins the podcast today to talk about the history of The post SimpleWebAuthn with Matthew Miller appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

SimpleWebAuthn is an open source TypeScript-centric pair of libraries – frontend and backend – that make it easier for devs to implement WebAuthn on the web. Matthew Miller started the project in 2019 and it has grown in tandem with the popularization of WebAuthn. He joins the podcast today to talk about the history of The post SimpleWebAuthn with Matthew Miller appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

SimpleWebAuthn is an open source TypeScript-centric pair of libraries – frontend and backend – that make it easier for devs to implement WebAuthn on the web. Matthew Miller started the project in 2019 and it has grown in tandem with the popularization of WebAuthn. He joins the podcast today to talk about the history of The post SimpleWebAuthn with Matthew Miller appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Bravas is a new offering based out of the EU, focused on the small business market. Identity and Device Management together, they're trying something new for the SMB market. Hosts: Tom Bridge - @tbridge@theinternet.social Charles Edge - @cedge318 Guests: Yoann Gini - LinkedIn Links: Bravas - https://www.bravas.io/en/ JWT - https://jwt.io/ WebAuthN - https://webauthn.io/ Shared Signals Framework - https://openid.net/wg/sharedsignals/ XKCD Standards - https://xkcd.com/927/ Kotlin Language - https://kotlinlang.org/ ACME - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Certificate_Management_Environment SCEP - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Certificate_Enrollment_Protocol ACME vs SCEP, from Secure W-2 - https://www.securew2.com/blog/acme-ios-certificate-enrollment Sponsors: Kandji Kolide Siit Nudge Security Watchman Monitoring If you're interested in sponsoring the Mac Admins Podcast, please email podcast@macadmins.org for more information. Get the latest about the Mac Admins Podcast, follow us on Twitter! We're @MacAdmPodcast! The Mac Admins Podcast has launched a Patreon Campaign! Our named patrons this month include Weldon Dodd, Damien Barrett, Justin Holt, Chad Swarthout, William Smith, Stephen Weinstein, Seb Nash, Dan McLaughlin, Joe Sfarra, Nate Cinal, Jon Brown, Dan Barker, Tim Perfitt, Ashley MacKinlay, Tobias Linder Philippe Daoust, AJ Potrebka, Adam Burg, & Hamlin Krewson  

This interview was recorded at GOTO Amsterdam for GOTO Unscripted.gotopia.techRead the full transcription of this interview hereEli Holderness - Developer Advocate at ScalewayMark Rendle - Creator of Visual ReCode with 7 Microsoft MVP Awards & 30+ Years of Experience Building SoftwareRESOURCESElitwitter.com/eliholdernesslinkedin.com/in/eli-holderness-4890b886hachyderm.io/@eliMarktwitter.com/markrendlegithub.com/markrendlelinkedin.com/in/markrendleDESCRIPTIONMark Rendle interviews Eli Holderness, a developer advocate at Scaleway, about WebAuthn and the future of web authentication. Eli explains the intricacies of WebAuthn, delving into public key cryptography and hardware security tokens.The conversation extends to broader topics, including data privacy, the challenges of passwordless authentication, and the potential impact of WebAssembly on cloud computing.The interview provides insights into the evolving landscape of web development, security, and cloud services, offering a glimpse into the advancements and challenges faced by developers and cloud providers.RECOMMENDED BOOKSLiz Rice • Container SecurityLiz Rice • Kubernetes SecurityAaron Parecki • OAuth 2.0 SimplifiedAaron Parecki • OAuth 2.0 ServersAaron Parecki • The Little Book of OAuth 2.0 RFCsErdal Ozkaya • Cybersecurity: The Beginner's GuideRicher & Sanso • OAuth 2 in ActionTwitterInstagramLinkedInFacebookLooking for a unique learning experience?Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket: gotopia.techSUBSCRIBE TO OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL - new videos posted daily!

Jared Hanson is a software engineer at Okta. In this episode, they delve into the world of authentication strategies, troubleshooting touchscreen frustrations, and exploring the evolution of web application technology. They touch on the challenges of secure authentication, the complexity of JavaScript type checking, and the intersection of security and usability in technologies like WebAuthn. Join us as they discuss their experiences with Passport JS, the potential of WebAuthn, the frustration with ongoing changes in browser technology, and much more. Tune in for an insightful discussion on cutting-edge trends in the JavaScript and Node.js ecosystems!SponsorsChuck's Resume Template Developer Book Club Become a Top 1% Dev with a Top End Devs MembershipSocialsLinkedIn: Jared HansonTwitter: @jaredhansonPicksAJ - SQL Types JShttps://github.com/nettofarah/postgres-schema-tshttps://www.npmjs.com/package/ts-to-jsdochttps://jswithtypes.com/AJ - Creative T60 SpeakersAJ - HammerHead Metal Shower HeadAJ - Degrees of Comfort King Dual-Heated BlanketCharles - Risk Legacy | Board GameCharles - Ubiquiti: UniFi - IntroductionSteve - The DriveSteve - FigmaSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/javascript-jabber/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this special episode of the Identity at the Center podcast, hosts Jim and Jeff take the stage in front of a live audience as part of the opening keynote at Authenticate 2023. Joined by three esteemed identity product managers, Mahendar from Ebay, Daniel from TikTok, and Christiaan from Google, they delve into a captivating discussion on the adoption of FIDO authentication, with a particular focus on passkeys. The hosts and guests share valuable insights into their roles at their respective organizations and provide firsthand experiences with implementing FIDO. The conversation covers a range of topics, from the early adoption of WebAuthN by Ebay to Google's recent transition to passkey by default. The audience gains exclusive access to the guests' perspectives on TikTok's decision to embrace FIDO and the roadblocks encountered during passkey adoption. Additionally, the hosts and guests explore the potential impact of AI on authentication in the future. Amidst the insightful conversation, the hosts also lighten the atmosphere with some lighthearted banter, discussing their hobbies and sharing personal experiences such as hiking Yosemite's half-dome. Tune in to discover which song Daniel would perform to go viral on TikTok and automatically enroll everyone in passkeys, and find out which of the three hosts found it most challenging to learn guitar, play golf, or navigate the world of digital identity. Christiaan Brand from Google: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christiaan-brand-57373a5/ Daniel Grube from TikTok: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-grube-b5118993/ Mahendar Madhavan from Ebay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mahendarmadhavan/ Connect with us on LinkedIn: Jim McDonald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmcdonaldpmp/ Jeff Steadman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffsteadman/ Visit the show on the web at idacpodcast.com and follow @IDACPodcast on Twitter.

We return to discussions of OAuth and all sorts of authentication. This time around we're looking at the design of authentication protocols, the kinds of trade-offs they weigh for adoption and security, and how a standard evolves over time to keep pace with new attacks and put to rest old mistakes. Segment resources: https://fusionauth.io/docs/v1/tech/core-concepts/modes https://webauthn.wtf/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7636 https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ In the news, appsec lessons from the Okta breach, directory traversal (and appsec) lessons from SolarWinds, how CISOs and Boards rank factors around vulns and patching, revisiting cryptocurrency attacks for lessons in business logic and threat modeling, CISA and friends update guidance on Secure Design, and more! Visit https://securityweekly.com/asw for all the latest episodes! Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/secweekly Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/secweekly Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-260

We return to discussions of OAuth and all sorts of authentication. This time around we're looking at the design of authentication protocols, the kinds of trade-offs they weigh for adoption and security, and how a standard evolves over time to keep pace with new attacks and put to rest old mistakes. Segment resources: https://fusionauth.io/docs/v1/tech/core-concepts/modes https://webauthn.wtf/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7636 https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-260

We return to discussions of OAuth and all sorts of authentication. This time around we're looking at the design of authentication protocols, the kinds of trade-offs they weigh for adoption and security, and how a standard evolves over time to keep pace with new attacks and put to rest old mistakes. Segment resources: https://fusionauth.io/docs/v1/tech/core-concepts/modes https://webauthn.wtf/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7636 https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ In the news, appsec lessons from the Okta breach, directory traversal (and appsec) lessons from SolarWinds, how CISOs and Boards rank factors around vulns and patching, revisiting cryptocurrency attacks for lessons in business logic and threat modeling, CISA and friends update guidance on Secure Design, and more! Visit https://securityweekly.com/asw for all the latest episodes! Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/secweekly Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/secweekly Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-260

We return to discussions of OAuth and all sorts of authentication. This time around we're looking at the design of authentication protocols, the kinds of trade-offs they weigh for adoption and security, and how a standard evolves over time to keep pace with new attacks and put to rest old mistakes. Segment resources: https://fusionauth.io/docs/v1/tech/core-concepts/modes https://webauthn.wtf/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7636 https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-260

I dagens avsnitt har vi finbesök i studion i form av Emil Lundberg från Yubico som är på plats för att snacka passkeys, WebAuthn, FIDO och annat kul!

Traditional authentication methods are outdated and need many layers of code, which can take time and resources away from developer teams. If developments like FIDO2, WebAuthn, and passkeys are to be the cornerstones of a passwordless future, then every application (not just Apple, Google, and Microsoft) needs an easy way to adopt these methods and weave them into current user authentication flows. Slavik Markovich, Co-founder and CEO, Descope, discusses current and future authentication trends and the importance of building a low-code/no-code passwordless authentication solution for app developers.Time Stamps02:52 -- Slavic, share with us some background information, some highlights of your professional journey.04:19 -- What are the pain points when it comes to authentication?09:55 -- So Slavik, where are we headed in terms of the next stage or the next phase of evolution when it comes to more sophisticated authentication systems?16:01 -- What is that low code, no code, passwordless authentication solution that would make it feasible for developers to focus on developing solutions and functionalities?25:00 -- There are products in the market, open source or proprietary, that can help take away that additional pain or challenge of developing the authentication part of the solution. The developers can then focus on what they are good at, developing the product functionalities. Is that a fair, high-level representation of what you said?26:17 -- So where are we with biometric authentication? Have we made more progress?33:53 -- Are we further along in getting to that ideal goal where just compromising an account doesn't mean the end of the world or doesn't mean a major problem?36:55 -- Please share some final thoughts.Memorable Slavik Markovich Quotes/Statements"If you have a token that you use to authenticate, that's pretty secure, it's very hard to phish it, and it's very hard to steal it.""A lot of effort is being made in creating authentication around who you are versus what you know. So using biometrics-based authentication is a big step in that direction." "Use of passkeys, which allow a secure and somewhat frictionless way of authenticating, without having to remember anything." [Note: "With passkeys, users can sign in to apps and websites with a biometric sensor (such as a fingerprint or facial recognition), PIN, or pattern, freeing them from having to remember and manage passwords"] (https://developers.google.com/identity/passkeys#)"Like everything in security, the devil is in the details.""There is an inherent tension between the security teams and the developers. You kind of try to solve it by bringing security into the development teams.""Security shouldn't become a bolt-on process but should be part of the architecture, design, review, and implementation.""Security doesn't sell your product. Eventually, features will sell your product.""Most developers are not security experts. So, if they implement authentication, there might be big holes that they cannot catch. Then, you end up with account compromises and stolen data from the application.""The biggest obstacle to biometric authentication is actually education.""The best password is no password."Connect with Host Dr. Dave Chatterjee and Subscribe to the PodcastPlease subscribe to the podcast, so you don't miss any new episodes! And please leave the show a rating if you like what you hear. New episodes release every two weeks. Dr. Chatterjee's Professional Profile and Media Kit:

Apple's version of passkeys are the latest piece of a sprawling identity picture for the Apple platform that isn't widely supported just yet - which is a perfect time to start learning about it.  Passkeys aren't just Apple; they're supported on Mac, Windows, Android, and even in our browsers. This evolution in WebAuthn's capabilities means we don't need physical tokens (although that's still an option) to have a second factor in auth flows - nor is that other factor tied to a phone number, making it more secure. But for admins, there are plenty of questions we need to figure out. What do we have instead of a username and what is there in lieu of a password? As we develop solutions that work with webauthn, we often use a reference implementation at webauthn.io to test functionality. Our guest today is one of the people behind that site, Matt Miller. Hosts: Tom Bridge - @tbridge@theinternet.social Charles Edge - @cedge318 Marcus Ransom - @marcusransom Guests: Matthew Miller - @iamkale@infosec.exchange Transcript: Click here to read the transcript (brought to you this week by Alectrona) Links: WebAuthn Debugger Project to paste in JSON versions of responses for WebAuthn calls and see their internals: SimpleWebAuthn Chrome extension project to view navigator.credentials endpoints and (if the most recent code checks clean and gets committed in time) paste in JSON versions of responses for WebAuthn calls and see their internals: WebAuthn Inspector Standards body definitions for WebAuthn: Web Authentication: An API for accessing Public Key Credentials - Level 2 Matt Miller's Blog - Matt's Headroom SimpleWebAuthn Sponsors: Kandji Kolide dataJAR Alectrona Watchman Monitoring If you're interested in sponsoring the Mac Admins Podcast, please email podcast@macadmins.org for more information. Get the latest about the Mac Admins Podcast, follow us on Twitter! We're @MacAdmPodcast! The Mac Admins Podcast has launched a Patreon Campaign! Our named patrons this month include Weldon Dodd, Damien Barrett, Justin Holt, Chad Swarthout, William Smith, Stephen Weinstein, Seb Nash, Dan McLaughlin, Joe Sfarra, Nate Cinal, Jon Brown, Dan Barker, Tim Perfitt, Ashley MacKinlay, Tobias Linder Philippe Daoust, AJ Potrebka, Adam Burg, & Hamlin Krewson  

Yubico, the company behind the YubiKey, is revolutionizing online security with its hardware-based security keys. These keys provide an extra layer of protection for your online accounts, making them less vulnerable to cyber threats such as phishing, man-in-the-middle (MitM) attacks, SIM swapping and account takeovers. The YubiKey is the world's first security key and protects over 4,000 organizations worldwide. The shift to remote work due to the pandemic has highlighted the need for better cybersecurity measures. According to Yubico's research, 42% of people feel more vulnerable to cyber threats while working from home, and 39% feel unsupported by IT. However, hardware-based security keys like the YubiKey provide a more secure solution while reducing friction at login. They meet the FIDO2 and WebAuthn standards, helping to pave the way for interoperability. Niall McConachie, Regional Director (UK & Ireland) at Yubico discusses the most common cyber threats people face and why not all security is equal. He emphasized that while one-time passcodes (OTPs) sent by SMS or mobile authentication apps are the most popular forms of two-factor authentication (2FA), they are still vulnerable to attacks. On the other hand, hardware-based security keys provide strong authentication and reduce the friction of logging in to multiple apps and accounts each day. Niall also discusses the future of secure, passwordless authentication. The evolving modern authentication ecosystem, with the help of hardware-based security keys, is paving the way for a future where passwords are no longer the primary form of authentication. This not only makes our online accounts more secure, but also reduces the hassle of remembering multiple passwords. Sponsored VPN Offer https://www.piavpn.com/techtalksdaily

Many services implement 2FA (Two factor authentication) by sending you a OTP (One Time Password) using an SMS with a random code, but this forces you to give them your valuable phone number. What alternatives do exist? Let's dive into the HOTP, used by some banks years ago through a physical token and the recent TOTP, which both let you generate completely offline codes without using any phone number or any other personal detail. They use the HMAC technique usually with a SHA-1 one-way hashing function, but other hashing functions can be used too. Useful links: a little visual explanation I found here Aegis android OTP generator use TOTP in KeepassXC for a desktop generator guide Let's keep Webauthn maybe for a future episode, I'm still exploring it and have to do more research.

We define the important needs and initiatives that are changing the crypto agility landscape. We discuss topics including CA independence, cryptography in public clouds, post-quantum cryptography (PQC) agility, hybrid certificates, and FIDO 2/WebAuthn.

Dan Moore is the Head of DevRel at FushionAuth. He joins AJ and Chuck to talk about the new API called, “WebAuthn”. Using biometric, secure authentication techniques, WebAuthn is a new approach for confirming your users' identities. He goes into detail about the usage of this API and how this is a good choice for users to validate web applications with ease and convenience. About this EpisodeFeatures and benefits of WebAuthnRegistration process of WebAuthnWebAuthn With Dan Moore - JSJ 562 | YouTube VideoSponsorsChuck's Resume TemplateDeveloper Book Club starting with Clean Architecture by Robert C. MartinBecome a Top 1% Dev with a Top End Devs MembershipLinksWhat is WebAuthn and why should you care?WebAuthn ExplainedYou can add biometric authentication to your webpage. Here's how.Auth. Built for Devs, by Devs - FusionAuthbest buy supported in DecPassword Free Authentication With Intuit And FIDO AuthenticationPassword-less authentication in NextJS application with WebAuthn and NextAuth - DEV Community

Dan Moore is the Head of DevRel at FushionAuth. He joins AJ and Chuck to talk about the new API called,  “WebAuthn”. Using biometric, secure authentication techniques, WebAuthn is a new approach for confirming your users' identities. He goes into detail about the usage of this API and how this is a good choice for users to validate web applications with ease and convenience.  About this Episode Features and benefits of WebAuthn Registration process of WebAuthn WebAuthn With Dan Moore - JSJ 562 | YouTube Video Sponsors Chuck's Resume Template Developer Book Club starting with Clean Architecture by Robert C. Martin Become a Top 1% Dev with a Top End Devs Membership Links What is WebAuthn and why should you care? WebAuthn Explained You can add biometric authentication to your webpage. Here's how. Auth. Built for Devs, by Devs - FusionAuth best buy supported in Dec Password Free Authentication With Intuit And FIDO Authentication Password-less authentication in NextJS application with WebAuthn and NextAuth - DEV Community

I dagens avsnitt gästas Christoffer och Olle av Emil Lundberg från Yubico, för att följa upp hur det gått sedan Emil gästade Säkerhetssnack för tre år sedan, under hösten 2019. Vad har hänt med WebAuthn sedan dess? Hur har utvecklingen gått, och vilka/hur många har börjat tillämpa det för sina webbtjänsters inloggningar? Hur ser framtiden ut för WebAuthn?   Lyssna gärna på det förra avsnittet från 2019 för ännu mer kontext kring WebAuthn och diskussionen som förs i detta avsnitt. Har ni några frågor och vill nå ut till Emil är ni välkomna att maila till: emil@yubico.com   Ställ gärna frågor och föreslå ämnen som du vill att Christoffer och Olle ska svara på eller prata om i framtida avsnitt! Skriv till @Sakerhetssnack på twitter!

What if you didn't have to worry about managing user passwords as a Python developer? That's where the WebAuthn protocol and new hardware standards are heading. This week on the show, Dan Moore from FusionAuth returns to discuss a password-less future.

Subscribe to the Podcast in your player of choice Subscribe hereIf you want to add FaceID, TouchID, device key or biometric login to your web site or web app then WebAuthn is the way to go and SimonB walks us through his implementation in a recent freelance project he has worked on.SimonG also talks about the complexity of deep links and URL schemas for mobile appsLinks FaceID for NextJS app WebAuthn Devdactic Deep Links with Capacitor Make a YouTube Deep Link Redirect Want more from us? Find Simon B at All The Code Find Simon G at The Ionic Academy Subscribe to the Podcast in your player of choice Subscribe here

Dave Lewis, Global Advisory CISO at Cisco, talks about the top takeaways of the 2022 Duo Trusted Access Report and the driving factors behind increased adoption of WebAuthn, MFA and biometrics.

Passwords have been around since the 1960s and as a means to keep someone out of a non-connected terminal, they were relatively secure. The scale of a compromised system was relatively low. But the world has changed drastically in that time. Every computer is connected to a massive network of other computers. The impact scale of a compromised password is multiple times more problematic than it was even 30 years ago, yet we continue to rely on passwords as a security means to protect account information. Security means like longer passwords, more complicated schemes, no dictionary words, and even two-factor authentication have had limited success with stopping hacks. Additionally, each of these requirements adds friction to a user accomplishing their task, whether that's to buy a product, communicate with friends, or login to critical systems. WebAuthN is a standard protocol for supporting passwordless authentication based on a combination of a user identifier and biometrics. Consumers can simply login via their email and using their thumb print on their phone or relying on facial recognition on their device. Passwordless authentication not only reduces frictions for users, but it removes a massive security vulnerability, the password. Nick Hodges, Developer Advocate at Passage, joins the show to share his knowledge and expertise about the security issues with traditional passwords, how passwordless works and addresses historical security issues, and how Passage.id can be used to quickly create a passwordless authentication systems for your product. Topics: What's the problem with passwords? Why have passwords stuck along so long? What's it mean to go passwordless? What is a passkey and how do they work? How does the privacy and security of a passkey compare to a standard password? A Passkey is stored within the Trusted Platform Module of a phone. What happens if someone steals my phone? What happens if I upgrade my device? Do my passkeys come with me? What are the potential security risks or limitations of passkey based login? What if I don't have my phone? Can I still login? Can you share an account with someone else? How does that work? When a business switches over to using a passkey approach, what's the reaction from their customers? Is there a big educational challenge to convince companies to ditch passwords? Why is a passkey approach to login not more widely adopted? What's stopping mainstream use? What is Passage and how is helping businesses go passwordless? Who's your typical customer? Startups just building their auth system or are people replacing existing systems for this approach? What's it take to get started? How hard would it be for me to rip out my existing authentication and adopt Passage? What are your thoughts on the future of passwords and password security? How far away are we from completely getting rid of passwords? What's next for Passage? Anything on the future roadmap that you can share? Resources: Passage Passage Demo Connect with Nick

ElixirConf US 2022 just finished! We cover the big announcements, talk highlights, and other relevant tech news. We discuss what some of these big announcements and projects represent and what they might mean for the Elixir community going forward. We talk about the Elixir 1.14 release, Livebook advances, Phoenix 1.7, machine learning progress, and the surprise announcement of Phoenix LiveView Native! Show Notes online - http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/115 (http://podcast.thinkingelixir.com/115) Elixir Community News - https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2022/09/01/elixir-v1-14-0-released/ (https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2022/09/01/elixir-v1-14-0-released/) – Elixir v1.14 officially released - https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/v1.14.0/CHANGELOG.md#changelog-for-elixir-v114 (https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/v1.14.0/CHANGELOG.md#changelog-for-elixir-v114) – Elixir 1.14 changelog - https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/v1.14.0/CHANGELOG.md#changelog-for-elixir-v114 (https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/blob/v1.14.0/CHANGELOG.md#changelog-for-elixir-v114) – Nerves v1.9.0 fixed Elixir 1.14 warnings - Phoenix 1.7 upcoming release discussed - Phoenix 1.7 generators will use Tailwind CSS - New phx.gen.auth --live option - https://github.com/liveviewnative/liveview-client-swiftui (https://github.com/liveviewnative/liveview-client-swiftui) – Phoenix LiveView Native was announced - https://github.com/liveviewnative/elixirconf_chat (https://github.com/liveviewnative/elixirconf_chat) – ElixirConf Chat project created using Phoenix LiveView Native - https://getfirefly.org (https://getfirefly.org) – Lumen was renamed to Firefly - https://twitter.com/HoldenOullette/status/1565486046237921280 (https://twitter.com/HoldenOullette/status/1565486046237921280) – Podium released an OWASP security training LiveBook for Elixir developers. - https://github.com/podium/elixir-secure-coding (https://github.com/podium/elixir-secure-coding) – Elixir Secure Coding Training (ESCT) - https://www.ectoinproduction.com (https://www.ectoinproduction.com) – Ecto In Production future home - https://github.com/liveshowy/webauthnlivecomponent (https://github.com/liveshowy/webauthn_live_component) – SmartLogic released a LiveComponent to support WebAuthn authentication for your LiveView app - https://github.com/liveshowy/webauthnlivecomponent_demo (https://github.com/liveshowy/webauthn_live_component_demo) – WebAuthn authentication demo page - https://github.com/kipcole9/tempo (https://github.com/kipcole9/tempo) – Kip Cole released a new kind of DateTime library called Tempo - https://kipcole9.github.io/tempo/2021-01-04-its-about-time/ (https://kipcole9.github.io/tempo/2021-01-04-its-about-time/) – Temp blog post explains more about it. - https://twitter.com/steveschoger/status/1562117153591107586 (https://twitter.com/steveschoger/status/1562117153591107586) – Heroicons v2.0 released. Used in TailwindUI templates. - https://twitter.com/louispilfold/status/1564247740879609860 (https://twitter.com/louispilfold/status/1564247740879609860) – Louie Pilford showed a screenshot of Gleam compiling Elixir's Plug - https://blog.heroku.com/next-chapter (https://blog.heroku.com/next-chapter) – Heroku, a popular PaaS made significant policy changes. Ending free tier and more. - https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages-2022 (https://spectrum.ieee.org/top-programming-languages-2022) – IEEE Top Programming Languages 2022 - https://twitter.com/josevalim/status/1565408635961884673 (https://twitter.com/josevalim/status/1565408635961884673) – José Valim shared they are porting non-neural algorithms to Elixir/Nx which runs on both CPU/GPU. Shared impressive performance comparisons. - Chris Grainger gave a keynote about how Elixir is ready for real, production machine learning work. - https://www.lambdadays.org/lambdadays2022 (https://www.lambdadays.org/lambdadays2022) – Lambda Days conference. 5-6 June 2023 in Krakow, Poland Do you have some Elixir news to share? Tell us at @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) or email at show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) Find us online - Message the show - @ThinkingElixir (https://twitter.com/ThinkingElixir) - Email the show - show@thinkingelixir.com (mailto:show@thinkingelixir.com) - Mark Ericksen - @brainlid (https://twitter.com/brainlid) - David Bernheisel - @bernheisel (https://twitter.com/bernheisel) - Cade Ward - @cadebward (https://twitter.com/cadebward)

Adam Langley (Google) comes on the podcast to talk about the evolution of WebAuthN and Passkeys!David's audio was a little finicky in this one. Believe us, it sounded worse before we edited it. Also, we occasionally accidentally refer to U2F as UTF. That's because we just really love strings.Transcript: https://share.descript.com/view/pBAXADn8gKWLinks:GoogleIO PresentationWWDC PresentationW3C WebAuthNAdam's blog on passkeys and CABLECable / Hybrid PRCTAP spec from FIDONoise NKPSKDERPDon't forget about merch! https://merch.securitycryptographywhatever.com/"Security. Cryptography. Whatever." is hosted by Deirdre Connolly, Thomas Ptacek, and David Adrian. 

On this week's show Patrick Gray and Adam Boileau discuss the week's security news, including: Taiwan tensions fail to conjure the cyber apocalypse Crypto bridge exploit results in $150m feeding frenzy Chainalysis evidence to be challenged in court Post-quantum NIST candidate algorithm gets smoked DSIRF's Russia links Much, much more This week's sponsor interview is with Jerrod Chong from Yubico. He's joining the show to talk about why consumer-focussed implementations of Webauthn like Apple's Passkeys aren't a great enterprise solution. Links to everything that we discussed are below and you can follow Patrick or Adam on Twitter if that's your thing. Show notes Taiwanese websites hit with DDoS attacks as Pelosi begins visit 'Frenzied mob' steals more than $156 million from crypto platform Nomad - The Record by Recorded Future Bitcoin Fog Case Could Put Cryptocurrency Tracing on Trial | WIRED Post-quantum encryption contender is taken out by single-core PC and 1 hour | Ars Technica Federal court system suffered previously undisclosed breach, congressional committee says Australian police charge man with developing spyware used by more than 14,500 people - The Record by Recorded Future Risky Biz News: Microsoft puts the limelight on another spyware maker—DSIRF from Austria Eavesdropping probe finds Israeli police exceeded authority | AP News Hacker use of Microsoft macros plummeted after default block: report - The Record by Recorded Future On security researcher's newsletter, exposing cybercriminals behind ransomware Luxembourg energy companies struggling with alleged ransomware attack, data breach - The Record by Recorded Future At least 34 healthcare orgs affected by alleged ransomware attack on OneTouchPoint - The Record by Recorded Future American Dental Association says April cyberattack involved ransomware - The Record by Recorded Future Ransomware group demands £500,000 from British schools, citing cyber insurance policy - The Record by Recorded Future Hackers stole passwords for accessing 140,000 payment terminals | TechCrunch Experts warn of hacker claiming access to 50 U.S. companies through breached MSP - The Record by Recorded Future German prosecutors issue warrant for Russian government hacker over energy sector attacks - The Record by Recorded Future The commercial satellite boom is leaving space vulnerable to hackers - The Record by Recorded Future Report to Congress of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission - U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission - Google Books Spanish police arrest two accused of hacking radioactivity alert system - The Record by Recorded Future

On this week's show Patrick Gray and Adam Boileau discuss the week's security news, including: Taiwan tensions fail to conjure the cyber apocalypse Crypto bridge exploit results in $150m feeding frenzy Chainalysis evidence to be challenged in court Post-quantum NIST candidate algorithm gets smoked DSIRF's Russia links Much, much more This week's sponsor interview is with Jerrod Chong from Yubico. He's joining the show to talk about why consumer-focussed implementations of Webauthn like Apple's Passkeys aren't a great enterprise solution. Links to everything that we discussed are below and you can follow Patrick or Adam on Twitter if that's your thing. Show notes Taiwanese websites hit with DDoS attacks as Pelosi begins visit 'Frenzied mob' steals more than $156 million from crypto platform Nomad - The Record by Recorded Future Bitcoin Fog Case Could Put Cryptocurrency Tracing on Trial | WIRED Post-quantum encryption contender is taken out by single-core PC and 1 hour | Ars Technica Federal court system suffered previously undisclosed breach, congressional committee says Australian police charge man with developing spyware used by more than 14,500 people - The Record by Recorded Future Risky Biz News: Microsoft puts the limelight on another spyware maker—DSIRF from Austria Eavesdropping probe finds Israeli police exceeded authority | AP News Hacker use of Microsoft macros plummeted after default block: report - The Record by Recorded Future On security researcher's newsletter, exposing cybercriminals behind ransomware Luxembourg energy companies struggling with alleged ransomware attack, data breach - The Record by Recorded Future At least 34 healthcare orgs affected by alleged ransomware attack on OneTouchPoint - The Record by Recorded Future American Dental Association says April cyberattack involved ransomware - The Record by Recorded Future Ransomware group demands £500,000 from British schools, citing cyber insurance policy - The Record by Recorded Future Hackers stole passwords for accessing 140,000 payment terminals | TechCrunch Experts warn of hacker claiming access to 50 U.S. companies through breached MSP - The Record by Recorded Future German prosecutors issue warrant for Russian government hacker over energy sector attacks - The Record by Recorded Future The commercial satellite boom is leaving space vulnerable to hackers - The Record by Recorded Future Report to Congress of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission - U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission - Google Books Spanish police arrest two accused of hacking radioactivity alert system - The Record by Recorded Future

Passage adds device native biometric authorization to web sites to allow passwordless security on devices with or without Touch ID. In this episode of The New Stack Makers, Passage Co-Founders Cole Hecht and Anna Pobletts talk about how the service works for developers to offer users its biometric service. Hecht and Pobletts have worked in product security for many years and the recurring problem is always password-based security. But there really is no great solution, Pobletts said. Multi-factor authentication adds security but the user experience is lacking. Magic links, adaptive MFA, and other techniques add a bit of improvement but are not a great balance of user experience and security. “Whereas biometrics is the only option we've ever seen that gives you both great security and great user experience right out of the box,” Pobletts. The goal for Hecht and Pobletts: offer developers what is challenging to implement themselves: a passwordless service with a high security level and a great user experience. Passage is built on WebAuthn, a Web protocol that allows a developer to connect Web sites with browsers and various devices through the authenticators on those devices, Pobletts said. “So that could be anything right now,” Pobletts said. “It's things like fingerprint readers and face identification. But in the future, it could be voice identification, or it could be, you know, your presence and things like that like it could be all sorts of stuff in the future. But ultimately, your device is generating a cryptographic key pair and storing the private key in the TPM of your device. The cool thing about this protocol is that your biometric data never leaves your device, it's a huge win for privacy. In that passage, your browser, no one ever actually sees your fingerprint data in any way.” It's cryptographically secure under the hood with Passage as the platform on top, Pobletts said. WebAuthn is designed for single devices, Pobletts said. A developer authenticated one fingerprint, for example, to one device. But that does not work well on the Internet where a user may have a phone, a tablet, and a computer. Passage coordinates and orchestrates between different devices to give an easy experience. “So in my case, I have an iPhone, I do face ID,” said Hecht showing the service. “And then I'm going to be signed in on both devices automatically. So that's a great way to kind of give every user access to the site no matter what device they're on.” With Passage, the biometric is added to any device a user adds, Hecht said. Passage handles the multidevice orchestration. Use cases? “FinTech people like the security properties of it, they kind of like that cool, shiny user experience that they want to deliver to their end users,” Hecht said. And then any website or business that cares about conversions is kind of a general term. People who want signups, who are trying to measure success by the number of people registering and creating accounts, are signing up. “Passage has a really nice story for that because we cut out so much friction around those conversion points.”  

It's the Passwordless Special!

Recent announcements about consumer passwordless authentication build on standards like FIDO and WebAuthn. In this episode we explain device-centric authentication, the FIDO Alliance, and how it all works.

Apple recently announced its Passkey functionality, which will allow passwordless authentication between Apple devices and supporting web services through key exchange. In this episode we discuss how this works, the user experience, the significance of FIDO and WebAuthn, and implications for consumer-facing sites.

Honestly, exciting week for me. A presentation at AppDevCon this week. I also put together a BuymeaCoffee page. And on top of that there is some really good content coming out in the last week. Not as much as right after WWDC. But still... great stuff.The App Icon Book by Michael Flarup, previous guest on my podcast discussing his book and other activities.Slides CocoaHeadsNL talk: WebAuthN and PassKeysSwift Package Index DocCThis week's articles:SwiftUI '22 in Numbers (and a few Charts)Capturing Text within Image Using Live Text API and SwiftUIUsing the SwiftUI 4 ImageRendererFrom Strings to Data using ParsableFormatStyleThe Best Change to Come From W.W.D.C. 2022Removing Dependencies: One Weird Trick for Increasing HappinessPlease rate me on Apple Podcasts.Send me feedback on SpeakPipeOr contact me through twitterBuy me a Coffee or become a member of my podcast.The Climate 21 podcastEvery week Climate 21 highlights successful climate emissions reduction storiesListen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifyRunwayPut your mobile releases on autopilot and keep the whole team in sync throughout. More info on runway.team Lead Software Developer Learn best practices for being a great lead software developer.Support the show

Episode 358 avec Benoit et Sébastien S..Sommaire :A comme Arduino (00:01:15) Portenta X8. Un board avec deux cerveaux. (source)C comme CloudFlare (00:08:04) Quand on noye votre site web. Un attaque DDoS observee par Cloudflare. (source)I comme Internet Explorer (00:17:10) Fini depuis le 15 juin. (source)M comme Metro (00:20:30) Quand on voit le metro en 3D. Des plans de station de metro en 3D. (source, source)S comme Saab (00:25:55) Codé le matin, en vol l'après-midi. (source)S comme Silicon (00:33:41) Quand les CPUs Arm sont vulnérables. Une faille de securité dans les processeurs Apple. (source, source)T comme TRNG (00:39:55) Aléatoire depuis une banane. (source)W comme WebAuthN (00:44:58) Quand sonne le glas des mots de passe. L'authentification sans mots de passe avec WebAuthN, FIDO2, CTAP . (source, source)

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

Picture of the Week. Apple's Passkeys presentation at WWDC 2022. WebAuthn. FREE Penetration Testing course with Kali Linux. Proof of Simulation. A valid use for facial recognition: The Smart Pet Door! Closing The Loop. The PACMAN Attack. We invite you to read our show notes at https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-875-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit You can submit a question to Security Now! at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Sponsors: plextrac.com/twit NetFoundry.io/TWIT canary.tools/twit - use code: TWIT

On The Cloud Pod this week, the team discusses the new Madrid region's midday siesta shutdown. Plus: Broadcom acquires VMWare for $61 billion, Azure gets paradigmatic with 5G, and you can now take the 2022 Google-DORA DevOps survey. A big thanks to this week's sponsor, Foghorn Consulting, which provides full-stack cloud solutions with a focus on strategy, planning and execution for enterprises seeking to take advantage of the transformative capabilities of AWS, Google Cloud and Azure. This week's highlights

Guillaume et Emmanuel discutent de l'état des versions de Java utilisées, de Java String template, et de beaucoup de failles de sécurité. On pourra presque se renommer Les Cast Sécu ;P On y ressussite aussi la rubrique débutant et discutons du piège de la classe URL. Enregistré le 20 mai 2022 Téléchargement de l'épisode LesCastCodeurs-Episode–279.mp3 News Langages L'état de Java selon newrelic Java 11 commence enfin à être utilisé plus que Java 8 en prod (48% vs 46%) Dans les versions non LTS, c'est Java 14 qui a l'air d'avoir le plus de succès non LTS en prod est 2,7% Après Oracle, c'est la distrib de AWS qui est pas mal utilisée suivi par adoptium Beaucoup d'utilisation de Java dans des containeurs (70%) avec 1 seul core, donc aussi moins de bénéfices dans l'utilisation de G1 pour le GC Toujours dans les containeurs, les applis Java tournent souvent avec moins de 512MB de RAM (45%) String templates en Java les string template c'est ce qui a fournit log4shell donc attention Replace certains usages de stringbuilder , stringfromat et messageformat Beaucoup de langages offrent ça (bash ahah) Exemple d'usage html, json, yaml etc Ils veulent permettre des règles de transformations et de validation (escape caractère) Peut même éviter le,passage par l'étape du passeur Objet template a le template et la policy Embedded expressions: chaînes de caractères, arithmétique, invoque méthodes ou champs, pas besoin d'échapper les double guillemets. Lignes multiples Quid capture des variables locales sans l'avis du développeur. Pas d'exemple meta où le template est importé ou construit. Un article détaillé sur ce qui est nouveau niveau GC dans Java 18 Librairies Quarkus 2.8 et 2.9 WebAuthN Confluent Schema Registry Kotlin Scala RESTEasy Reactive est la couche par défaut GraalVM 22 Elasticsearch Dev Services Outillage Un nouveau décompilateur avec du code plus lisible Tous plus ou moins un fork de celui d'intellij maintenu par JetBrains, le fork d'avant est de Minecraft Reconstruit des constructions de plus haut niveau et plus moderne. Exemples Sécurité Une vulnérabilité dans struts 2 Un problème qui n'avait été que partiellement corrigé. Lié à OGNL'et une double évaluation via %{…} sur du contenu venant de l'utilisateur. Le gros trou de sécu sur les signatures Java 15–18 attaque sur les approches ECDSA (elliptic curve digital signature algorithm), typiquement plus modernes cibles Java web start, Java applets, web services qui utilisent ECDSA (JWT, SAML, OIDC Id tokens, WebAuthN version Oracle Java 7, 8, 11, 15, 16, 17, 18, OpenJDK 15, 17, 18 (backport Oracle) Comme un psychic paper de dr who: peut signer numériquement un papier sans infos (paramètres de la courbe peuvent être à 0 ce qui permet de valider tous les messages (0) L'interprétation pour un framework comme Quarkus Spring4Shell avec risque de remote code execution (unfolding) Mitigations: mettre a jour 5.x, mettre a jour tomcat (tactique), setDisallowedField pour excludes les accès aux getter/setter class, passer a Java 8 La RCE est basée sur la navigation non restreinte de class.module.classLoader Spring MVC Early Announcement Spring Cloud exploit announcement Spring MVC Exploit Announcement Spring4Shell HelpNetSecurity assessment Spring4Shell Sonatype Assessment Qualys assessment Personal Security Checklist Recense les bonnes pratiques en terme de sécurité numérique Selon différents thèmes Authentication Browsing the Web Email Secure Messaging Social Media Networks Mobile Phones Personal Computers Smart Home Personal Finance Human Aspect Physical Security Google offre aux clients Google Cloud des libairies validées en sécurité Une équipe de maintenance Open Source chez Google Loi, société et organisation Apple va supprimer au téléchargements les applis non mises a jour depuis 3 ans et peu téléchargées ça a fait réagir et râler Des applis finies Mais surtout une résumassions c'est du taf (nouvelles règles, peut être mise à jour de framework) Du cote de Apple c'est nettoyer un peu la longue queue d'applis Et encourager les gens à rester au top (eg privacy infos) Les duchesses ferment leur slack aux hommes pas fait de gaité de cœur mais réaction aux événements temps des Modérations plus passe sur les posts d'hommes que de femmes Sensation de pas laisser la place aux femmes Maladresses et manques de respect Coupé dynamisme et la sécurité de parole Et beaucoup d'hommes et du coup sentiment d'épier Les duchess feront toujours des événements mixtes mais cet espace avait perdu son utilité première Comment la guerre en Ukraine ébranle la tech russe fragilisation fuite des cerveaux (depuis 2014 et la crimée (cerveaux emprunts de plus de liberté) manque .5 à 1 millions de developpeurs Karspersky et les doutes de ses clients (80% du chiffre d'affaire à l'étranger) Yandex moteur de recherche protégé car marcher local mais démission du CEO Default de paiement (endettement) e.g. VK 400 millions de dollars Envisager de raid de disque dur pour consommation locale Outils de l'épisode Faire le la configuration conditionnelle dans git includeIf permet de faire la condition Utile pour changer l'email entre bureau et perso par exemple. [aheritier] je le fais souvent avec des repertoires différents pour boulot vs oss/perso Rubrique débutant La comparaison des URL Les URLs sont égales si les IP sont égales donc DNS lookup donc pas constant pour la vie de l'instance de JVM vive les hash des Set et Map :) Conférences JavaDay au Paris JUG: Le futur de Java - le 22 juin 2022 Nous contacter Soutenez Les Cast Codeurs sur Patreon https://www.patreon.com/LesCastCodeurs Faire un crowdcast ou une crowdquestion Contactez-nous via twitter https://twitter.com/lescastcodeurs sur le groupe Google https://groups.google.com/group/lescastcodeurs ou sur le site web https://lescastcodeurs.com/