Podcasts about cpus

eBanking Phishing Delivered Through IPv4-Mapped IPv6 Address https://isc.sans.edu/diary/eBanking%20Phishing%20Delivered%20Through%20IPv4-Mapped%20IPv6%20Address/33090 NGINX ngx_http_v3_module vulnerability CVE-2026-42530 https://my.f5.com/manage/s/article/K000161616 Squidbleed (CVE-2026-47729) https://blog.calif.io/p/squidbleed-cve-2026-47729 AMD will reinstate memory encryption on Ryzen 9000 CPUs through a BIOS update in July https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/amd-will-reinstate-memory-encryption-on-ryzen-9000-cpus-through-a-bios-update-in-july-tsme-is-coming-back-after-valuable-community-feedback My Upcoming Classes https://www.sans.org/profiles/dr-johannes-ullrich

Well well, what do we have here?   Another episode of the PCPer Podcast for your enjoyment!  Commodore is making phones, Steam Machine is starting to make waves, iGPUs are getting dropped, 12vHPWR is making lightning, a very special segment on pricing of olde, a critical Copilot vulnerability (suprise?), and a Bitlocker Zero Day.  Steam hardware survey, brown cooling, and the infamous Podcast sound board.Relax and take it all in.Timestamps:0:00 Intro1:06 Patreon5:12 Josh fails to deliver a food segment6:31 Steam Machine benchmarked8:06 Zen 6 desktop CPUs may lose iGPU, add NPU11:16 Intel and NVIDIA collaborate on upcoming processor12:51 A trip down memory (and storage) lane18:37 AMD giveth, and AMD taketh away22:19 Noctua NL-LC1 liquid cooler reviewed at TPU26:08 Handheld with Arc G3 Extreme pricing28:22 IQUNIX Ghost in the Shell hall effect keyboards30:24 Commodore Callback34:53 Logitech folding mouse38:40 Another melting 12VHPWR connector story42:02 (In)Security Corner53:44 Gaming Quick Hits1:05:52 Picks of the Week1:16:45 Outro ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Parce que… c'est l'épisode 0x30E! Préambule C'est difficile la vie d'aéroport. Shameless plug 24 et 25 juin 2026 - Troopers 26 et 27 juin 2026 - leHACK 30 juin au 2 juillet 2026 - Pass the SALT 19 septembre 2026 - Bsides Montréal 20 au 26 septembre 2026 - BruCON 13 novembre 2026 - DEATHCon 16 au 19 novembre - European Cyber Week 1 au 3 décembre 2026 - Forum INCYBER - Canada 2026 24 et 25 février 2027 - SéQCure 2027 Notes IA ou Ghost in the shell Export control WTF ‘Dangerous' AI Models Are Coming No Matter What Cybersecurity experts don't think Anthropic's Fable 5 presents a unique threat A quote from Matteo Wong, The Atlantic The Fable 5 Export Controls Harm US Cyber Defense Cybersecurity Vets Protest ‘Dangerous' US Government Ban On Anthropic's Most Powerful Models Feds freaked over Fable 5 after simple ‘fix this code' prompt, not jailbreak, says researcher From PGP to Mythos: a brief history of export controls that didn't stop anyone The US government's Anthropic models ban was never about an AI jailbreak Critical Copilot vulnerability allowed hackers to steal 2FA code from users “Important You should give me full credits!”: Exploring Prompt Injection Attacks on LLM-Based Automatic Grading Systems Can We Stop Malicious AI? KILLBENCH: A Benchmark for External AI Kill Switch Feasibility RAG prompt injection protection Evaluating LLMs for Obfuscation Detection and Classification in Android Apps Security Engineering of OpenClaw: Analyzing Attack Surface Expansion and Trust-Boundary Violations Snyk VulnBench JS 1.0: Can LLMs Find the Same Bugs Twice? Every AI Agent Is an Identity. Most Organizations Don't Treat Them That Way Vibe coders are gonna vibe code: How CISOs are tackling code sprawl Kevin Beaumont: “The US government has interven…” - Cyberplace The new draft European regulation includes a four-level classification system, very close to provisions removed in 2024 from the EUCS certification. La guerre, la guerre, c'est pas une raison pour se faire mal! Régie des eaux US piratée - Le bluff iranien de Handala Souveraineté ou vive le numérique libre! From Distorted Mirrors to Sovereign Reflections: Resisting the Grotesque Depiction of Our Digital Selves US holds off blacklisting China's DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks, sources say Privacy ou cachez ces informations que je ne saurais voir Apple is about to make Hide My Email useless France to stop certifying products without quantum-safe encryption I am the law C'est la faute des enfants UK to ban social media for kids under 16, may impose overnight curfews Children Are Not the Enemy: Child-Fit Security as an Alternative to Bans and Surveillance UK set to announce social media ban for under-16s From Australia to Europe, countries move to curb children's social media access Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school The UK's Teen Social Media Ban Is Political Theater, Not Child Safety Policy Ô Canada Canada's Digital Super-Regulator: Bill C-36 Pushes Out the Privacy Commissioner and Hands Private Sector Privacy to an Overloaded Commission Midnight Madness: The Government Rushes Lawful Access Bill Through the House Without Debate or a Recorded Vote The Commission: How Bill C-34 Creates an Internet Super-Regulator That Will Touch the Lives of Millions of Canadians Red ou tout ce qui est brisé Massive breach spills credentials for thousands of sensitive networks FortiBleed — 75k Fortinet firewalls have admin passwords cracked The Internet Runs on Names India temporarily blocks Telegram over medical exam cheating fears Telegram admits it couldn't police exam-leak channels, India tells court 27-Year-Old OpenBSD Vulnerability Allows Attackers to Bypass PAP Authentication Entirely Microsoft Confirms Defender RoguePlanet 0-Day Exploit and Working to Release Patch New iPhone BootROM Vulnerability Exposes Apple SoCs to Full Chain-of-Trust Compromise When Does a Threat Intelligence IOC Expire? Most CISOs Report Pressure to Bury Bad Security News Stressors, AI Forcing Changes to Cybersecurity Teams I discovered a large-scale malware distribution on GitHub Microsoft Discovers Cryptocurrency Stealer That Spreads Through USB Drives and Uses Tor Crooks found a new way to collaborate using Teams – by hiding command-and-control traffic Cyber offenses now account for around a third of all crime across Asia and South Pacific Microsoft site throwing warnings after someone forgot to renew cert Blue ou tout ce qui améliore notre posture [curl summer of bliss daniel.haxx.se](https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2026/06/15/curl-summer-of-bliss/) Divers ou parce que j'ai aucune idée où les placer AMD FTW Users cry foul after AMD stripped memory crypto from its consumer CPUs AMD will reinstate memory encryption on Ryzen 9000 CPUs through a BIOS update in July — TSME is coming back after ‘valuable community feedback' Cabal How the Peter Thiel-Linked Dialog Club Secretly Ranks Its Members Leak Exposes Members of Peter Thiel's Secretive ‘Dialog' Society Collaborateurs Nicolas-Loïc Fortin Crédits Montage par Intrasecure inc Locaux réels par YUL

Der Markt der Notebookprozessoren ist in Bewegung: Intel und AMD erreichen mit ihren x86-Prozessoren nur noch kleine Performancesprünge, Qualcomm hängt sie mit seinen Snapdragon-X2-CPUs meinstens ab und Apples M-Chips laufen sowieso allen davon. Hinzu kommt im Laufe des Jahres die Firma Nvidia, die mit dem RTX Spark ein SoC für (zunächst recht teure) Notebooks bringt. In dieser Folge des c't uplink sprechen wir über die kommenden CPUs von Nvidia, die aktuellen von Qualcomm und was für ARM-CPUs noch kommen könnten (und welche eher nicht). Außerdem: Warum die Situation bei Linux-Treibern bei Nvidia erquicklicher werden könnte als bei Qualcomm, was AMD so plant, was Intels Panther-Lake-Chips doch ganz gut hinbekommen und mehr. Mit dabei: Florian Müssig Moderation: Jan Schüßler Produktion: Tobias Reimer ► Mehr zu Nvidia RTX Spark und Intel Panther Lake lesen Sie bei heise+ (€): - Analyse: Wie Nvidias Einstieg bei Notebookprozessoren den Markt verändert: https://www.heise.de/hintergrund/Analyse-Wie-Nvidias-Einstieg-bei-Notebookprozessoren-den-Markt-veraendert-11321616.html - Vergleichstest: Vier Notebooks mit Core Ultra 300 alias Panther Lake: https://www.heise.de/tests/Vergleichstest-Vier-Notebooks-mit-Core-Ultra-300-alias-Panther-Lake-11168671.html

Der Markt der Notebookprozessoren ist in Bewegung: Intel und AMD erreichen mit ihren x86-Prozessoren nur noch kleine Performancesprünge, Qualcomm hängt sie mit seinen Snapdragon-X2-CPUs meinstens ab und Apples M-Chips laufen sowieso allen davon. Hinzu kommt im Laufe des Jahres die Firma Nvidia, die mit dem RTX Spark ein SoC für (zunächst recht teure) Notebooks bringt. In dieser Folge des c't uplink sprechen wir über die kommenden CPUs von Nvidia, die aktuellen von Qualcomm und was für ARM-CPUs noch kommen könnten (und welche eher nicht). Außerdem: Warum die Situation bei Linux-Treibern bei Nvidia erquicklicher werden könnte als bei Qualcomm, was AMD so plant, was Intels Panther-Lake-Chips doch ganz gut hinbekommen und mehr.

Der Markt der Notebookprozessoren ist in Bewegung: Intel und AMD erreichen mit ihren x86-Prozessoren nur noch kleine Performancesprünge, Qualcomm hängt sie mit seinen Snapdragon-X2-CPUs meinstens ab und Apples M-Chips laufen sowieso allen davon. Hinzu kommt im Laufe des Jahres die Firma Nvidia, die mit dem RTX Spark ein SoC für (zunächst recht teure) Notebooks bringt. In dieser Folge des c't uplink sprechen wir über die kommenden CPUs von Nvidia, die aktuellen von Qualcomm und was für ARM-CPUs noch kommen könnten (und welche eher nicht). Außerdem: Warum die Situation bei Linux-Treibern bei Nvidia erquicklicher werden könnte als bei Qualcomm, was AMD so plant, was Intels Panther-Lake-Chips doch ganz gut hinbekommen und mehr. Mit dabei: Florian Müssig Moderation: Jan Schüßler Produktion: Tobias Reimer ► Mehr zu Nvidia RTX Spark und Intel Panther Lake lesen Sie bei heise+ (€): - Analyse: Wie Nvidias Einstieg bei Notebookprozessoren den Markt verändert: https://www.heise.de/hintergrund/Analyse-Wie-Nvidias-Einstieg-bei-Notebookprozessoren-den-Markt-veraendert-11321616.html - Vergleichstest: Vier Notebooks mit Core Ultra 300 alias Panther Lake: https://www.heise.de/tests/Vergleichstest-Vier-Notebooks-mit-Core-Ultra-300-alias-Panther-Lake-11168671.html

Cybersecurity could be the next major AI-driven market theme.   In this episode of ITPM Flash, Dieter breaks down how the AI revolution has already created waves in data centers, energy, CPUs and memory — and why cybersecurity may be the next area to attract serious investor attention.   With advanced AI models exposing software vulnerabilities and major institutions racing to strengthen their systems, the setup for cybersecurity stocks could become increasingly relevant. Dieter explains why he prefers ETF exposure through the First Trust Nasdaq Cybersecurity ETF, ticker CIBR, rather than trying to pick individual cybersecurity winners. He also walks through a long call trade structure using November and August options, explaining the setup, the credit received, the risk/reward, and why a longer time horizon may make sense for this particular theme.   Listen now to see why AI-fuelled cyber risk could become one of the next big trades in the market.

NuNet is building a decentralised compute and orchestration network where people can contribute spare CPU, GPU, RAM and other resources, while developers and organisations can deploy workloads across available infrastructure. In this episode, Peter talks with Jennifer from NuNet about the new NuNet Appliance and why it matters for making decentralised compute more practical for everyday users.The conversation covers how NuNet matches the right compute to the right job, how the Appliance lowers the barrier to onboarding devices, and why use cases like n8n automations, private AI agents, edge AI, Cardano SPO infrastructure and web deployment workflows are a natural fit for the network. Jennifer also explains NuNet's zero-trust security model, pricing approach, organisations, ensembles, deployment templates, and how NTX fits into orchestration fees.If you have spare compute, want to run private AI workloads, or are building in the DePIN and Cardano ecosystem, this episode gives a practical look at how NuNet is moving from concept to usable infrastructure.Key Takeaways:- NuNet is a decentralised compute and orchestration platform that lets people contribute spare compute and lets workloads find suitable resources automatically.- The NuNet Appliance is designed to make onboarding CPUs, GPUs, RAM and other compute resources much easier for non-expert users.- NuNet can support broad workloads, including n8n automation, private AI agents, Qwen-based LLM deployments, edge AI, web builds and Cardano SPO infrastructure.- The network uses a zero-trust model where machines are cryptographically identified and verified at each interaction.- Compute pricing is designed around stable currency values, with automatic conversion into NTX rather than forcing users to price workloads directly in a volatile token.- NuNet organisations can let other DePIN projects bring their own communities and native tokens while still using NuNet's orchestration layer.- Ensembles and templates are intended to simplify deployments so users do not need to manually understand every YAML configuration detail.- NuNet is open source, with docs, GitLab, Discord, Medium and X available for people who want to try the network or contribute.Links & References:- NuNet — Compute Orchestration for a Decentralized World: https://link.learncardano.io/eGKGuZ- What is NuNet? | NuNet Documentation: https://link.learncardano.io/rHu2E4- x.com: https://link.learncardano.io/NIhPKR- https://link.learncardano.io/Tlu7wNWebsite: https://link.learncardano.io/bQ68RcX/Twitter: https://link.learncardano.io/3a1QtvDisclaimer: This content is for educational purposes only. Nothing constitutes financial advice.DISCLAIMER: This content is for informational and educational purposes only and is not financial, investment, or legal advice. I am not affiliated with, nor compensated by, the project discussed—no tokens, payments, or incentives received. I do not hold a stake in the project, including private or future allocations. All views are my own, based on public information. Always do your own research and consult a licensed advisor before investing. Crypto investments carry high risk, and past performance is no guarantee of future results. I am not responsible for any decisions you make based on this content.

This week, we speak with Dr. Wasiq Bokhari, CEO of quantum computing firm Pasqal, to discuss its $1.98 billion combination with Bleichroeder Acquisition Corp. II (NASDAQ:BBCQ). Quantum computers are plugged in and doing real commercial work, but, how can you get them to collaborate with CPUs and GPUs on a single problem? Pasqal believes it may have the answer. Wasiq explains how the company has worked to build a full-stack approach to commercializing quantum solutions and where it has already demonstrated quantum advantage. He also gets into how it is developing software to make engaging with quantum computers easier, and how it can break down problems into the parts that quantum computers, CPUs and GPUs are each best poised to solve the fastest.

Network Is Hot Again: Stackpane's Sarbjeet Johal on Cisco Live, AI Infrastructure and Systems Economics, Podcast, Johal brings a unique mix of technical, business, and economics experience to the discussion @Doug Green, Publisher, Technology Reseller News “The network is hot again because a lot more data is traversing on it, and a lot more data will traverse on it,” says Sarbjeet Johal of Stackpane. In this Technology Reseller News podcast, Doug Green speaks with Sarbjeet Johal, Founder and CEO of Stackpane, technology analyst, cloud strategist and go-to-market specialist, about why the network has moved back to the center of the enterprise technology conversation. Johal brings an unique mix of technical, business and economics experience to the discussion. A veteran of VMware, Oracle and Dell EMC, Johal has spent decades building and deploying enterprise systems, advising technology providers, and helping buyers understand cloud strategy, infrastructure modernization and digital transformation. At Cisco Live, Johal says the biggest theme was simplification. Cisco, he argues, is working to reduce infrastructure complexity for customers operating across public cloud, on-premises systems, AI workloads and increasingly distributed environments. That includes a renewed focus on infrastructure as code, platform control, and AI-assisted tools such as Cisco IQ, which Johal says can help customers and partners troubleshoot, configure and operate Cisco environments more effectively. The conversation then turns to Johal's recent observation that “the network is hot again.” His point is that AI, real-time systems, digital services, autonomous agents, and API-driven interactions are all placing new demands on network performance. As more data moves across enterprise systems, latency, memory, compute, and connectivity become more strategically important. Johal notes that during AI inference, latency is especially critical, making the network, chips, CPUs, and memory all part of the same infrastructure story. Johal also frames the issue through systems economics. Enterprises are not simply buying more technology for the sake of modernization. They are being forced to ask whether cloud, AI, on-prem infrastructure, and automation actually pencil out in terms of total cost of ownership, return on investment, and operational value. For MSPs, channel partners, and technology providers, that creates an opportunity to help customers make better architecture decisions, not just consume more tools. The podcast closes with a look ahead to a future conversation on token economics, AI infrastructure costs, and where MSPs and channel partners can find real business opportunity as enterprise technology becomes more automated, more data-intensive, and more dependent on resilient network infrastructure. Editor's note: This podcast was recorded at Cisco Live in Las Vegas and is being posted later. With time, the conversation has become even more notable. Johal's central point — that the network is “hot again” — has only gained relevance as AI, automation, cloud infrastructure and real-time digital services continue to place new pressure on enterprise networks. Learn more: Stackpane at stackpane.com

Qualcomm CEO Cristiano Amon says artificial intelligence is set to change the way people use smartphones, even if the devices themselves are not going away.Speaking to CNBC's Arjun Kharpal on “The Tech Download,” Amon said phones will increasingly be operated by AI agents that can carry out tasks on behalf of users, from managing apps to interacting with services across the internet. He described agents as a major shift for the mobile industry, comparing their emergence to the rise of apps in the smartphone era.Amon also said new categories of personal AI devices are beginning to take shape, including smart glasses, pins, pendants and other wearables. He said glasses are a natural fit for AI because they sit close to a user's eyes, ears and mouth, allowing models to process what people see and hear in real time.The Qualcomm chief also discussed what the shift means for the semiconductor industry, including the need for more powerful and efficient chips in phones, PCs, glasses, cars and other connected devices. He said AI is forcing a rethink of chip architecture as devices increasingly rely on a mix of CPUs, GPUs and neural processing units to run models across both the device and the cloud.Amon also pointed to memory shortages and wider supply-chain constraints as key challenges for the industry, while arguing that the rise of AI devices could bring new players into consumer electronics.Subscribe to “The Tech Download” wherever you get your podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brendan Burke says now is the time for tech, and Intel (INTC) has a growing role in the AI buildout. He believes current CEO Lip-Bu Tan will turn Intel into a core collaborator with AI hyperscalers that serves as a compelling foundry alternative to TSMC (TSM). Brendan also expects Intel to serve as a strong inferencing and CPU manufacturer as spending for AI accelerates. ======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Subscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

Big thanks to TryHackMe for sponsoring this video. Learn Cyber Security with Practical Labs on TryHackMe:https://tryhackme.com/DavidBombalTech Use my code DAVIDTECH25 to get 25% OFF on Annual Subscription! Dr. Mike Pound joins David Bombal to explain symmetric encryption, AES, secret keys, VPN encryption, TLS, block ciphers, stream ciphers and why encryption is one of the most important building blocks in modern cybersecurity. In this video, Mike explains what encryption actually does: it takes readable plaintext and turns it into unreadable ciphertext so that only someone with the correct secret key can decrypt it. He breaks down how symmetric encryption works, why the same key is used to encrypt and decrypt, and why algorithms like AES are used everywhere from secure websites and VPNs to BitLocker and full disk encryption. You'll learn why AES is so fast on modern CPUs, how keys interact with encryption algorithms, and why AES uses rounds of substitution and permutation to scramble data. Mike also explains the difference between block ciphers and stream ciphers, including AES, DES, Triple DES, ChaCha20 and older algorithms like RC4 and A5/1. The discussion also covers why symmetric encryption is used for bulk encryption in protocols like TLS and IPsec, why asymmetric encryption is used differently, and why you should never write your own encryption algorithm or implement your own AES code for real-world security. If you want to understand how encryption protects your data, how VPNs and secure web traffic work, and why AES is still one of the most important algorithms in cybersecurity, this is a great place to start. // Mike SOCIAL // X: / _mikepound YouTube Channel: / computerphile // YouTube Video REFERENCE //Password Cracking: Can a Rainbow table reverse a hashed password?: • Password Cracking: Can a Rainbow table rev... // David's SOCIAL // Discord: discord.com/invite/usKSyzb Twitter: www.twitter.com/davidbombal Instagram: www.instagram.com/davidbombal LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/davidbombal Facebook: www.facebook.com/davidbombal.co TikTok: tiktok.com/@davidbombal YouTube: / @davidbombal Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/3f6k6gE... SoundCloud: / davidbombal Apple Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... // MY STUFF // https://www.amazon.com/shop/davidbombal // SPONSORS // Interested in sponsoring my videos? Reach out to my team here: sponsors@davidbombal.com // MENU // 0:00 - Coming Up 0:27 - TryHackMe Sponsor 0:49 - Intro 01:18 - Symmetric vs Asymmetric Encryption 04:38 - Key Exchange and VPN Analogy 06:10 - Examples of Symmetric Algorithms 08:56 - Advantages of Stream vs Block Cyber 10:31 - Deeper AES Explanation 14:34 - Substitution, Permutation, Mixing in AES 19:24 - Don't Implement your Own Encryption 20:16 - TryHackMe Sponsor - DEMO 24:21 - DES Algorithm and the NSA 26:01 - Where to Learn More about Encryption 27:42 - Outro Please note that links listed may be affiliate links and provide me with a small percentage/kickback should you use them to purchase any of the items listed or recommended. Thank you for supporting me and this channel! Disclaimer: This video is for educational purposes only. #symmetricencryption #aes #des

The launch of the Arm AGI CPU marks one of the most significant milestones in Arm's history. In this episode of Arm Viewpoints, Brian Fuller sits down with Arm VP Eddie Ramirez to explore why Arm made the leap from IP and compute subsystems to deployment-ready silicon, and what that means for the future of AI infrastructure. They discuss the rise of agentic AI, the growing importance of CPUs in orchestrating AI workloads, the power and efficiency challenges facing modern data centers, and how Arm is positioning itself to help organizations deploy AI at unprecedented scale. Along the way, Eddie shares behind-the-scenes insights from the AGI CPU launch event and offers a glimpse into how AI, cloud infrastructure, and physical intelligence may evolve over the next five years.

Josh Singh, sales director at Turning Point Technology Services Josh Singh didn’t arrive at Dell Technologies World simply as a partner – he arrived as someone who spent nearly eight years on the vendor side, in Dell sales roles, before crossing over to Turning Point as the company’s sales lead. That dual perspective shapes everything about how Turning Point operates. The Vancouver-based solution provider, founded in 2012, runs exclusively on Dell in the data center – a deliberate, all-in single-vendor bet that Josh frames not as a constraint but as a competitive advantage. Nearly half of the team is ex-Dell, which means when a customer needs an answer fast, Turning Point knows exactly who to call inside Dell’s notoriously complex internal matrix. That navigational fluency, Josh argues, is the kind of differentiation that doesn’t show up in a spec sheet but shows up every time there’s urgency. Turning Point recently formalized that depth by opening what Dell designates as its first official solution center in Canada, in their Vancouver office, giving the team and their clients hands-on access to the full portfolio – including the GB10 for deskside AI development. On AI, Josh’s read is that the “AI factory” framing was right directionally but too large a first step for most of the Canadian market. Dell’s move toward more modular, consumable AI infrastructure – starting at one or two servers, proving a use case, then scaling – is what actually unlocks adoption for SMB customers. Small wins first, then the appetite for something bigger. On security and resilience, Josh drew a clear line: backup is the last line of defense, and if that last line gets hit – or gets frozen by a ransomware insurance claim – you’re rebuilding from scratch. Dell’s Data Domain and its proprietary DDBoost protocol, alongside Veeam, form the core of what Turning Point puts in front of customers who need to actually recover, not just theoretically recover. And rounding it out: the supply chain disruption, compounded by Broadcom‘s reshaping of the virtualization market, is forcing Canadian organizations to plan differently – more external awareness, more budget flexibility, earlier commitment. That’s a challenge across the industry, Josh notes. But for partners who can guide customers through it, it’s also an opening. Read Full Transcript Robert Dutt: Hello and welcome to In The Channel from ChannelBuzz.ca, bringing news and information to the Canadian IT channel community for the last sixteen years. I’m Robert Dutt, editor of ChannelBuzz.ca, and your host for the show. We’re continuing our series from Dell Technologies World in Las Vegas. This week, we’re deep on the partner perspective. Today’s guest brings a point of view you don’t usually get. Nearly a decade inside Dell Technologies, followed by a move to the partner side – specifically to a partner that has made one of the most deliberate, all-in single-vendor bets you’ll find in the Canadian channel. Josh Singh leads the sales team at Turning Point Technology Services, a Vancouver-based solution provider founded in 2012 that operates exclusively on Dell in the data center. Not mostly Dell, not primarily Dell – exclusively. In a channel where diversification is almost reflexively treated as risk management, Turning Point went the other way, and they did it right at the beginning of Dell’s channel investment cycle, which turned out to be good timing. Josh brings to that an unusual lens. He spent almost eight years in Dell’s sales roles, where he learned early that the channel was the key to his success, and that knowing how to navigate Dell’s internal matrix is an advantage that translates directly into faster, better outcomes for customers. Roughly half of Turning Point’s team is ex-Dell. They recently opened what Dell designates as its first official solution center in Canada, right there in their Vancouver office. We talked about what it actually means to make the single-vendor bet and why it’s holding up. How the AI adoption conversation is changing for SMB customers who weren’t ready for the Dell AI Factory, but might be ready for something smaller. The security and data resilience story, and why backup shouldn’t be confused with business continuity. And what the supply chain situation, plus Broadcom’s disruption of the market, is doing to how customers have to plan. Let’s get right into it. My chat with Josh Singh. Josh, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. I’m sure it’s been a busy week. Josh Singh: It has been a busy week, and thanks for having me. Robert Dutt: I guess to open it up, I want to start with a question that frames the perspective that you have at an event like this. Turning Point made the explicit call to go all-in on Dell on the infrastructure side, as I understand. A lot of partners diversify, carry multiple vendors, pick and choose their spots. What’s the logic behind that bet? What does a week like this one – where Dell’s making a lot of big moves around AI and the direction of the partner program and all that – feel like for a shop that’s tied its future to the Dell story? Josh Singh: Very good question. I’ve been asked this numerous times, and it’s clear you’ve done your research on us. As you said, Robert, we are 100% Dell-exclusive in the data center. We do have other technologies that are complementary to Dell to give our clients an end-to-end ecosystem of technology, but we have doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on Dell in the data center. Turning Point was formed in 2012. Three founders – Lee, Sean, and Lauren – they came from a value-added reseller that sold a multitude of technologies. What they found out at the time was Dell had a portfolio that covered the end-to-end, especially in the data center. They branched out, all three of them from [Seven Group – verify company name], and they formed Turning Point. They just realized that Dell was at the beginning of their partner program. You’ll see a legacy fabric still embedded in some aspects of Dell Technologies where they still are partial to selling direct, but they have put a large amount of emphasis and investment in the channel over the last fifteen years. Turning Point was formed at the very beginning of that cycle. Since then, we have had no regrets. Dell has really come to the table as a really solid partner for us, allowing us to offer our clients the end-to-end data center strategy with Dell Technologies. Robert Dutt: Your lens is unique too in that you have some time at Dell EMC – a viewpoint that a lot of partners don’t have in terms of having seen both sides of that fence, especially around the same vendor. What does that vendor-side time teach you about what Dell actually needs and wants from partners, and the reality of what Dell values in a partner? Josh Singh: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I spent almost eight years at Dell in various sales roles. I learned very quickly, and early on in my Dell sales career, that the channel was the key to my success. The core reason why is I’m one individual. I have a solutions engineer, I have some overlays, and we manage a pretty large territory. I found that if I could just introduce a channel partner into the mix, I could lob it over the fence, play quarterback a little bit, get enough updates from the channel partner so I can update my leadership – because that’s really important. But I was able to scale my business significantly when I started to work with the channel. Actually, Turning Point was one of those channel partners that I worked very closely with. So it’s a bit of a full circle moment for me to come back and I lead the sales team at Turning Point. Robert Dutt: I have to imagine the Dell team is happy to have you, because clearly you’ve got that lens for exactly what they are looking for from you as a partner. Josh Singh: Yeah, you know, every vendor has their own methodology and go-to-market culture. And so it does help. Actually, almost half of Turning Point’s team is ex-Dell Technologies employees. So that really gives us a unique perspective on how Dell wants to sell, how to update Dell, what’s important to them – what’s important to each level in the organization, from the sales rep to the manager, to the director, to the senior director, to the president. So we understand what is important to Dell Technologies. And also, for our customers, it’s really important to pick the right technologies. But as we all know, this world is moving so fast and our customers need answers, and they need us to be on their requests in a really time-sensitive way. And so, typically with most vendors, you know your account executive and that individual is the key to the organization. When you come from Dell, you all of a sudden know how to navigate the matrix of Dell. And so when a customer has a question, you know exactly who to call. You can pick up the phone and get that answer in a much more time-sensitive way than navigating the matrix of Dell, which can be large and daunting. Robert Dutt: So the secret sauce is as simple as spending more than half a decade inside the company itself. Josh Singh: Simple. Yeah, easy peasy. Robert Dutt: Big week for AI infrastructure here, and the Dell AI thesis – in so much as they’ve for a while been pulling on the idea of running AI models on-prem and on their infrastructure – was really amplified this week. Between that, desktop agentic AI, and the whole server and storage announcements underneath that, how does what was announced here resonate with what you guys are doing now and what your customers are asking for in terms of technology and how it’s delivered? Josh Singh: Yeah, no, that’s a really good question. So I’ve been at Dell Technologies World almost every year, and I’m finding a big difference in the talk tracks this year. AI was a concept, it was a lot of buzzwords, it was a lot of fluff, to be honest with you as well. Everyone’s trying to chase what AI means to them. But I think this year is the first year where I started to see concepts materialize into practicality, whether it comes to data locality or infrastructure, or really how to go to the next steps of adopting AI. The Canadian market is more pragmatic in their approach to adoption of technology – a little laggard, but not in a negative way, just a bit more conservative. And so what Dell Technologies World enables me and us to do is learn from people actually deploying AI in a much more meaningful and scalable way, for us to then be able to go back to Canada and start to talk about potential use cases, potential outcomes – because it is a very daunting topic, AI, sometimes it can be very overwhelming. So Dell Technologies World allows us to take some key facts about AI, bring them back into our local market, and then help them through that journey. And also, we’re meeting a lot of experts here as well. So it’s not just that we take these concepts and go back to Canada and try to do it ourselves – we’re really supported by the Dell channel ecosystem as well, to help our clients evolve in their AI journey. Robert Dutt: What are the ideas that you’re hearing that specifically are making you think, “All right, this is going to change something in how we do business internally, or this is something I have to take to customer X, customer Y, customer Z,” because it maps to what they’re thinking about or where they should be thinking? Josh Singh: Yeah. I think Dell, when they first wanted to address AI, they came out with the Dell AI Factory, and that was the message. So for a lot of Canadian organizations – which are largely SMB – adoption of an AI Factory is not consumable. It’s too large. They need to prove the model out. And then as soon as they get some small wins and successes, then they can scale out, because the smallest AI Factory was large for them. And this is what we noticed, actually, in the last twelve months. So what Dell is doing now is making it a bit more economical, a bit more consumable – in the AI data platform, starting at one server, maybe two servers, a little PowerScale, and then using that to prove out a use case. And then once we prove out a use case, our customers say, “Hey, there’s really something to this AI thing that everybody keeps talking about.” Now they can really start to invest in a much more scalable, larger way. So I think what Dell has released – very small products with the GB10 all the way up to that massive AI Factory – I mean, you saw when Michael Dell came out with Jensen, and he came out on stage and showed the entire portfolio of AI with a small little itty-bitty – not quite Raspberry Pi size, but not too far from that. Robert Dutt: Really, yeah. Josh Singh: And then having Jensen talk about the next model and how much more powerful that next model is – 100x, 100x, 100x, all the way up to that big AI Factory. So I think it just allows us to be a bit more practical in AI adoption rather than, “Mr. Customer, you have to adopt an AI Factory and that’s how you’re going to achieve AI.” So yeah. Robert Dutt: Has some of the stuff they’re talking about – deskside AI, and specifically deskside agents – when you talk about a GB10 and the lower end of that, and even for more casual users, they would make the case down to the AI-enabled PC – how does that kind of map with how your customers are approaching AI, given that they aren’t going to be going out and buying even a bottom-end, full-on AI Factory experience as a day-one thing? Josh Singh: Yeah. So at Turning Point, we have our data center – it’s actually a solution center. Dell has multiple across the world. There was none in Canada. So actually, with Dell leadership, we opened up Dell’s first solution center in Vancouver in our office. There was a big unveiling with the president of Dell Canada, all Dell leadership came out, and we stood up our solution center in conjunction with Dell. So in that solution center, we have every piece of technology that Dell has – from PowerStore to PowerScale to ObjectScale. And we recently adopted the GB10 so we’re able to actually learn it, use practical use cases that actually help Turning Point, and then we can actually know how to speak to our customers as an adopter ourselves of the GB10 and some of the use cases. So anything from OpenClaw to using different language models and trying to help business productivity in that manner. We serve customers in almost every single vertical. So we are working with healthcare – we’re doing some work right now with healthcare and looking at different use cases when it comes to X-rays and things like that. And then we also work with legal, looking at contractual ways to actually pull out data from thousands or millions of contracts to find commonalities to help an organization improve their operational efficiency. So we’ve got our system in our solution center and we’re actually going through those use cases ourselves so that we can better serve our customers. Robert Dutt: Given that you’ve got that data center and you’ve got that – choose your own analogy, eat your own dog food, drink your own champagne – approach to things, how have you guys approached AI internally, and what have you learned from how you’ve done that over the last year or two? Josh Singh: So it’s a good question. Admittedly, we are a little bit at the beginning of that journey as well. So at Turning Point, as well as many of our customers, we were a bit overwhelmed with what AI meant. And so we have a practice when it comes to consultation to navigate what AI means for them. We do specific workshops to get a client to understand what they want out of AI and to conceptualize what AI is capable of doing. Now we’re really getting into how product is going to help that. So this is the next iteration of our AI journey to help our customers – going over and beyond the consultative nature of how AI works and models and inferencing and all those buzzwords that customers understand but don’t really understand. And then we’ll take whatever is the output from that workshop, and now with our solution center, we’re looking to actually take the results of that and try to replicate it using product and technology and actual outcome. Robert Dutt: How often do you find that the outcome of the workshop – “this is what AI would do best for you” – maps with what they came in thinking AI would do best for them? Josh Singh: It’s fascinating to see, actually, because in a lot of SMB organizations, there is no AI data scientist, there is no AI leader. So it’s essentially decision by committee. And that committee could be a storage admin, a network admin, a compute admin, an application admin, all the way up to leadership, cybersecurity, of course, for governance and compliance. So seeing the different perspectives in these AI committees is really interesting – to watch the customer look at each other and each individual have their own expertise and go, “Oh, that’s interesting. Oh, that’s interesting. Why did I know you viewed the world through the lens of this?” And so coming in with these workshops, it’s typically not one outcome. It’s actually allowing a conversation between these committees at our customer organizations to really help push what AI means for each of those individuals. And then they branch out, actually not with Turning Point but internally, to foster more discussion. And then we come back in and help prod and push in certain areas with our AI knowledge. But really, it’s more contextual. It’s not really about language models and things like that. It’s more about blue sky – like, what do we want to do? And what’s success for you, and what’s success for you, and what’s success for you? You’ll notice that success for each of these individuals is very different. So it’s been fascinating for us to watch. Robert Dutt: It’s funny how often some of these things do – for all the technology behind it – come down to breaking down internal silos. Josh Singh: Yes, yes, yeah. It’s a big part of our job. We help bridge technology to business, to legal, to cybersecurity, all the way up to business goals. So it’s really – it’s an honor to work in this industry and see those conversations play out. Robert Dutt: We saw some fairly significant changes to the partner program and the rollout of the Modern Partner Platform – in terms of the agentic AI stuff that’s rolling into the partner portal and the partner experience, deal registration improvements, a whole bunch of things – especially where you guys are at as a boutique, exclusively Dell-focused operation on the data center side. What did you see in there that really caught your interest – “okay, that’s going to make my life better”? And in a more art-of-the-possible mode, what do you think AI appearing in partner platforms is going to mean in the long run in terms of what you can do, and what you can get from the overall experience you have with key vendors like Dell? Josh Singh: Yeah, good question. So they haven’t fully rolled out the One Dell Way platform yet – they’re chipping away at it. First is with CSG on the client side, and they’re starting that internally. So we haven’t actually seen the result of a lot of that change yet. But I do know theoretically what the plan is for that, and I think it’s going to be really advantageous for us. We are seeing a little bit of the benefits right now where human intervention – as vendors start to consolidate a bit more in sales and back office – the role of the sales rep is changing. There are a lot of tasks that that sales rep now has to do. And so they can sometimes be the bottleneck of operational efficiency. Let’s talk about deal registration, for example: they will get an email, and if they’re busy in meetings, by the time they get to that email and press OK, it could be twenty-four, it could be forty-eight hours, it could be seventy-two hours if that person’s out of town. So then you have to chase – and with how fast IT is moving with our customers, we can’t afford to wait that long. So we’re starting to see a bit more intelligence and automation in how deal registrations are approved. It is a bit of a complicated topic because the channel relies on Dell’s ability to recognize who our accounts are, who our loyal customers are. And so there have been some conflicts since then. But I do see that Dell is on it and they are working it out. And I do love the transparency and honesty from Dell in owning up where mistakes were made and correcting them in the field. So I am seeing some AI adoption when it comes to the partner program, but it’s not fully rolled out yet. So I am looking forward to seeing what they come out with. Robert Dutt: In terms of future state – whether it’s stuff that they’re already discussing or stuff that’s just possible but not yet on the roadmap – what would be the most impactful for you and your organization to move to a more automated, more agentic motion with a key vendor like Dell? Josh Singh: Yeah. I’m sure you’ve heard of Dell Sales Chat. It’s basically their version of GPT, but it references all of Dell’s information – presentations, documents, white papers, service briefs, and things like that. So the Dell rep just types in a query into Dell Sales Chat, and an answer comes out while referencing all Dell documentation. What I really want to see is Dell enabling that for the channel. And so I’ve talked to Dell leadership – specifically people that own this product – and that is the plan. And so I’m really, really excited for that, because especially when we respond to RFPs in public sector, it’s a very time-consuming endeavor. And so for us to be able to type in queries on very specific questions that public sector has about technology would be really valuable. And I do know that there are compliance and governance issues as well. The labeling of documentation has to be accurate – otherwise, the channel would get access to potentially confidential data from Dell Sales Chat. But that’s the biggest thing that I’m waiting for Dell to offer the channel. Robert Dutt: Cool. I wanted to talk a little bit about security and data resilience, because that was another theme here at the event – an area where you guys have a fair bit going on with vCISO and MDR, cyber recovery, all that kind of stuff. Basically, how does the Dell cyber resilience narrative from this week connect with what you’re already doing? Does it strengthen the story you’re telling clients? Does it give you new opportunities? How are you viewing the message here? Josh Singh: Yeah. So I actually come from the security and resilience team at Dell – that’s my most recent role there. So it’s near and dear to me and my heart, and I am seeing a lot of product updates when it comes to security. That’s really exciting for me to see, actually. So Dell has a security and data platform in Data Domain, and there are other partners in the ecosystem like Druva and others. There are some partnerships with CrowdStrike and other MDR companies. And that’s what I really appreciate about Dell – they did have Secureworks for a period of time, which got spun off, but I do appreciate Dell constantly looking at where their gaps are from a technology perspective and then partnering up with other vendors to complete the end-to-end strategy. As I mentioned, each individual product in the technology portfolio – they are releasing a lot of security updates and functionality embedded in PowerStore, more in Data Domain when it comes to immutability and things like that, and PowerScale anomaly detection in each of the different products, end-to-end encryption with secure [HPAs – unclear; possibly “HBAs” or “APIs” – verify]. So there’s a lot of attention right now when it comes to security. And to come back to AI – AI is really cool and it can create a lot of really cool outcomes. That’s if you’re wearing a white hat. If you’re wearing a black hat, it can be equally exciting for them as well. And so Dell has to keep up now with not just asking what are the positive outcomes that can drive more efficiency and unlock human progress, but what are the black hats going to be doing with AI, and how do we respond? Robert Dutt: I was sharing a detail this week that backup infrastructure is kind of a primary target for attacks. Curious – does that kind of match with what you’re seeing? And how do you, especially with customers who are newer to you or just going through the process, help them reconcile what they think they’re protecting with their backup versus what they actually have in terms of protection? Josh Singh: Yeah, this is – I mean, every backup vendor says the same thing. This becomes really difficult, actually, to undo a lot of the conditioning from a lot of the backup vendors. I joined DPS – which is now the SRP, the Security and Resiliency Platform, at Dell – for a very specific reason. I actually used to also work for Secureworks. And I realized that talking to people about managed security services was resonating at the time. But the answer was always, “Hey, we just go back to our backup target and we restore, we recover, we’re up and running within a couple of hours.” So I thought, I could spend the same amount of time with a different team and a different product and achieve much more success, because that’s what most organizations are relying on. So they really rely on backup. Now, backup should not be confused with business continuity. Backup is the last line of defense – and it really is the last line of defense. So when you have a last line of defense, you need to make sure that that is locked down. If you don’t trust your last line of defense, it doesn’t really matter what you do on top of that. You can spend millions of dollars per year operationally on subscriptions and monitoring and things like that. But if you don’t trust your last line of defense, you are hooked. And so Dell’s backup product, Data Domain, is the most secure, purpose-built backup appliance out there in the market – hands down. It’s not even a comparison, from my perspective – and it could be a biased perspective – against other competition and other vendors that also play in the same area. There are just so many features in Data Domain when it comes to immutability and governance and compliance and DDBoost, which is a proprietary protocol – it’s not CIFS, it’s not NFS. A bad actor can scan a CIFS or NFS directory so easily and then just encrypt it. So while we do work very well with PPDM – which is Dell’s backup software – we also use Veeam as well. And so the Veeam-to-Data Domain story is very powerful, and it’s really good for the SMB market as well. So we’re constantly looking at the market and seeing what’s compatible, what plays well with Dell products, and we’re introducing that into our ecosystem as well. Robert Dutt: All right. To wrap it up – sitting where you sit as a partner who’s made a pretty significant single-vendor bet on Dell, what’s the one thing from this week that you sit back and go, “Yeah, that validates the decision”? And also, was there anything that gives you pause – that makes you go, “Okay, I need to learn more about that before I’m sure that we’re aligned”? Josh Singh: Yeah. I mean, I can’t deny that we haven’t been forced to think about more vendor adoption. And as every company needs to iterate and evolve and stay on top of industry trends, we need to constantly be surveying other technologies. And we do. We look at NetApp all the time. We look at Pure. We look at HPE constantly. And what we’ve noticed is we don’t need to take on a different vendor. And especially – one thing I will say about Dell, and I’m not sure if this is an answer to your question, but I do have to mention this – Dell’s supply chain is second to none. So we’re in this world right now which is shifting aggressively to shortages and components and things like that. And that’s where Dell’s really shining right now – in their ability to go to different geographic areas and fast-track product from other areas. So that’s just one thing that I have to plug Dell for: very impressive about what they’re doing there. But from a Dell perspective, they’re constantly innovating. All the thought leaders of the world – in different companies and different partners and vendors – they’re all here. And so if we have that big bet on Dell and they’re constantly innovating and adding new partnerships and are at the forefront of innovation, then that means we are too. And if we are, then we don’t need to look anywhere else – and we’re going to double down on the bet. Robert Dutt: To go back to what you were saying about the supply chain situation – it’s no doubt wild times trying to get infrastructure for everyone on the planet right now. And we hear pretty clearly from Jeff Clarke the idea, the message to customers: put your hand up early – really early, if you can – because that’ll give you the best chances of getting what you want when you want it. If you’re thinking two years out or something, how are you approaching timelines and guidance to customers on – okay, so you want to be here at some point – speccing that out in light of the uncertainty of availability, the uncertainty of price, all the fun stuff that’s going on right now? Josh Singh: We’re living in that world right now and it’s changing the way customers have to respond to their stakeholders in their organizations. Back in the day – and by back in the day, I mean six months ago – a customer needed compute and they would buy compute and they would get it within three weeks, likely two. Now we’re looking at two months, three months, sometimes six-month delays, depending on if they need very specific components. So it is a little bit like the COVID days, where there was a big push to remote connectivity. Now customers are looking at public cloud again in a bigger way because they need immediate resources. So what we’re trying to do as an organization is say, “Yes, you could go to the cloud – that is an option. It always has been an option and always will be an option. But is that the right thing for your organization economically, from a security perspective, from a latency perspective?” There are so many more considerations, especially in the Canadian market with data sovereignty. And so the shift of parts shortages – and this wouldn’t be a current interview unless we talked about Broadcom and the changes they’ve made in the market as well. These two very big changes in our market are now affecting the way that organizations have to respond to their stakeholders and the immediacy of resources. So planning now is critically important. The way that customers are now trying to secure budget within their organizations is changing, because they need to be a bit more adaptable and flexible to what’s externally offered. Previously, it was internal operational methodologies on how they adopted technologies. Now they’re being affected by the external. So they have to be a bit more flexible and adaptable as to how they need to support their growing environment – by way of data, by way of compute resources, and especially AI. Now that I need GPUs and memory and CPUs, which are now in shortage, it is a very big challenge. But it’s not a Dell challenge, it’s a customer challenge. It’s happening across the entire industry. So that’s a good thing for us. If it was a Dell challenge, then we’d have a challenge ourselves and be in a bit of a corner. But it’s a global challenge right now that we are constantly seeing changes to. And I suspect we’ll continue to see changes for the rest of the year. Robert Dutt: It’s wild times when you hear folks who are very intelligent on these things saying this is going to be a multi-year kind of cycle. I guess AI giveth, AI taketh away. Josh Singh: Yes, yes. And geopolitics – we’ve got some leaders in the world right now that are making decisions that are affecting our geopolitical climate as well, which is then downstream affecting IT. So it’s interesting times. Exciting times. And I think we’ll look back on today just like we looked back on COVID – we’ll get through it. We’re all in it together. Robert Dutt: Here’s hoping the war stories end up good at the end of the day. Josh Singh: That’s right. Robert Dutt: Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. Josh Singh: Thanks very much, Rob. I appreciate it. Thank you. Robert Dutt: There you have it, Josh Singh from Turning Point Technology Services. I’d like to thank Josh for his time in Las Vegas. The full-circle element of his story – spending years inside Dell, working alongside Turning Point as a channel partner, and then joining the company he was selling through – comes through clearly in how he talks about the business. And I think that perspective showed throughout the conversation. A few things I’d like to take away from this one. First, the single-vendor bet argument. A lot of partners hedge on vendor relationships as a form of risk management, but Turning Point went the other way. And the case Josh makes is essentially that depth beats breadth – that knowing how to navigate a large vendor’s internal matrix quickly is itself a competitive advantage for customers. When someone needs an answer today, knowing exactly who to call inside Dell and getting it done in hours instead of days is a real differentiator. Doesn’t show up in a product spec, but it does show up in the relationship. Second, the AI adoption ladder. The AI Factory is the right concept, but maybe too large a bite for most of the Canadian market. What’s changing now – and what you heard Josh describe with the solution center and the GB10 pilots – is AI becoming consumable at the entry level. Small win, prove the model, scale it up. That’s how it actually gets adopted in the mid-market and SMB space, and the partners who figured out how to structure that journey are the ones who are going to win those accounts. And third, backup is the last line of defense, not the first. Josh put it plainly: if you don’t trust your last line of defense, it doesn’t really matter what you spend on top of it. And if your backup infrastructure gets hit with a ransomware attack – which is increasingly the whole point of the attack – and you’ve filed an insurance claim on top of that, you can’t touch it until the insurance company is done with their analysis. You’re building from scratch. That air gap, clean recovery point is the whole game. Not a nice-to-have. If you’re enjoying the show, please follow or subscribe wherever you listen. We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, the usual suspects. And if you have a moment to leave a rating or review, please do. Until next time, I’m Robert Dutt for ChannelBuzz.ca, and I’ll see you in the channel.

Scott Hanselman talks with Omar Shorbaji from the Anyscale engineering team about how Anyscale on Azure scales Python AI workloads from a single notebook to thousands of CPUs and GPUs. Built on Ray, the most widely adopted AI compute engine, Anyscale gives you a unified runtime to build, train, and serve, running directly on Azure Kubernetes Service without the complexity of managing Kubernetes. See a live demo that fine-tunes a vision-language-action robotics policy, with the metrics you need to push GPU utilization higher. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction 00:52 - Ray and the Anyscale platform 03:11 - Start of demo: Workspaces 04:38 - Running a job and viewing utilization metrics 05:24 - Choosing the right scale 06:53 - Abstracting Kubernetes on AKS 08:53 - Wrap up and where to learn more Recommended resources Learn Docs Anyscale on Azure Connect Scott Hanselman | Twitter/X: @SHanselman Anyscale | Twitter/X: @anyscalecompute Azure Friday | Twitter/X: @AzureFriday Azure | Twitter/X: @Azure

I'm excited to work with Microsoft once again as the presenting sponsors of the AI Engineer World's Fair! We'll streaming live from MS Build today for a special crossover pod with our friends at No Priors and the one and only Satya Nadella. However we did not hold back with this interview - we asked all the burning questions about uptime and Copilot that we know you have in your minds. Lets go!For almost two decades, GitHub has been the home of software, where both open source and closed flow, through commits, pull requests, reviews, actions, etc.This ecosystem flourished as open-source maintainers and contributors would continue shipping code for the benefit of the community. However as coding agents began to ship mass quantities of code - growing 1400% in 2026, it marked a new era that was both extremely exciting and challenging for GitHub.While these agents help more people ship more projects, they also significantly increase the floor of how much code is shipped, how often it is shipped, how many people commit code, and basically orders of magnitude multiples in every dimension of GitHub infrastructure:Now GitHub inevitably experiences more pressure on their infrastructure which was originally designed around human developers moving at human speed. This has resulted in a very publicly notable uptime story:So it begs the question of whether current systems around code can absorb what AI produces. Can CI/CD keep up when every idea becomes a build? Can open source maintainers survive floods of AI-generated slop contributions? Can GitHub preserve the human social contract of software while becoming the operating layer for agents?Which brings us to the perfect person to answer these questions: GitHub COO Kyle Daigle. In this episode, he joins swyx to unpack what happens when AI doesn't just autocomplete code, but starts changing how companies operate, how open source works, how pull requests get reviewed, and how GitHub itself has to scale. We go deep on GitHub's internal AI workflows: micro-skills, WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, email, Copilot workflows, the new Copilot desktop app, CLI, cloud agents, and how Kyle uses agents to look backwards across company context before deciding what to do next. Kyle also reflects on GitHub's history building webhooks, APIs, Actions, npm, Dependabot, and Semmle, why the AI era is breaking GitHub in new ways, how Actions became a general-purpose compute layer, and what Copilot becomes after code completion.Full Video PodWe discuss:* Kyle's expanded role across GitHub* How AI got Kyle coding again after years in leadership* Why GitHub rolls out AI through existing workflows instead of forcing new tools* WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, email, and GitHub as company context* Why massive “mega-skills” are giving way to small, atomic micro-skills* How AI changes summarization, communications, marketing, and analyst work* Why former developers in leadership may have a unique advantage in the AI era* Kyle's “15 agents on Saturday” workflow* How Kyle built an AI-generated executive presentation for CRO/CFO teams* Why AI changes the chief of staff role without removing the human work* GitHub Actions, webhooks, arbitrary code execution, and secure agent compute* The npm acquisition, supply-chain security, 2FA, and token invalidation* Slop forks, vendoring, and whether AI agents change dependency management* What pull requests become when most PRs come from agents* Prompt requests, vouching, AI review, and trust in open source* What counts as a “developer” when AI lowers the barrier to building* GitHub Spark, low-code, and why GitHub refuses to hide the code* 14x commit growth, Actions load, databases, monorepos, and availability* Copilot's evolution from completion to CLI, desktop app, cloud agents, and SDK* Context, memory, rules, and making GitHub “act like Kyle wants it to act”* Ambient AI, OpenClaw, enterprise security, and the new operating system for agents* What swyx should ask Satya Nadella about Microsoft's AI futureKyle Daigle* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyledaigle* X: https://x.com/kdaigleTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:03:36 Why AI Got Kyle Coding Again00:07:04 Running GitHub with AI: WorkIQ, MCP, Slack, Teams, and Skills00:15:39 The Golden Age for Former Developers in Leadership00:17:31 15 Agents on Saturday and AI-Generated Executive Work00:20:20 How AI Changes the Chief of Staff Role00:21:45 GitHub's History: Actions, npm, Webhooks, and Open Source00:28:45 Slop Forks, Vendoring, and AI Dependency Management00:33:57 Pull Requests, Prompt Requests, and Trust in Agent-Generated Code00:41:21 GitHub Stars, 200M+ Developers, and the New AI Builder Wave00:45:15 GitHub Spark, Low-Code, and Why GitHub Still Shows the Code00:47:38 GitHub's Hardest Era: 14x Growth, Reliability, and Scale00:59:21 Actions as the Compute Layer for CI/CD and Automation01:02:04 The State and Future of GitHub Copilot01:08:24 Ambient AI, Background Agents, and the Future of the SDLC01:13:09 OpenClaw, Enterprise Security, and the New OS for Agents01:18:03 Build Announcements, WorkIQ, FoundryIQ, and Microsoft Context01:21:41 What Should swyx Ask Satya?TranscriptIntroduction: Kyle Daigle's Expanded Role at GitHub and MicrosoftSwyx [00:00:00]: We're here with Kyle Daigle, COO of GitHub. Welcome.Kyle [00:00:07]: Hey, thanks for having me.Swyx [00:00:08]: You're not just CEO of GitHub. People know you as that. You have a new role.Kyle [00:00:11]: So I have an expanded role now. I've been working at GitHub for thirteen years and doing all things developer. Joined as a developer myself. And now, I'm also responsible as the CMO of Developer for Microsoft. And so all the kind of learnings and passion for developers and how we work with them and how we communicate and how we bring our products to market, we're also bringing that expertise to the broader Microsoft ecosystem and helping every developer that uses a Microsoft product or would like to have a sort of similar experience that they've had with GitHub over the years. So it's a different role in some ways, but it's also just building on the experience that I've had at GitHub of just sort of tell the truth, be authentic, show people how to use it and then let the products speak for themselves. Now just doing that with, all of Microsoft.Swyx [00:01:09]: We'll be releasing this in conjunction with Build. You got lots of stuff planned, and we can sort of touch on that whenever it's appropriate. I think one of the interesting things is I rarely meet a COO who's also a CMO. I think you're a very outward facing and you're very confident publicly. That's rare. Do you actually view yourself as COO? What's What is your thing?From GitHub Developer to COO/CMO: Building the Platform and Operating GitHubKyle [00:01:33]: I think for me, it's been funny. The titles have always been, a— have always felt a little strange to me. I joined GitHub as a developer? I wrote so much of theSwyx [00:01:46]: Let's bring that up. You wrote the back ends?Kyle [00:01:48]: I was going through, I was going through, some old photos, when folks were talking about how things were being built or how there was a build GitHub. I built, webhooks and worked with teams building the API, built the platform layer. Anything that integrated with GitHub, up until really twenty eighteen, I built or ran the engineering teams. And that's kind of where my the beginning of my passion always was helping people build things, deliver them to, their customers. And so being a developer, building for developers was always super unique. In a— I think as my role expanded, it became my ability to talk to not just developers, but also enterprise customers or business leaders and have this translation layer. And then through all those years, GitHub has always operated pretty uniquely. Post-pandemic, working remotely was not as novel as it was when GitHub started in two thousand and eight. But all that expertise of running remote teams, doing it well, became this sort of bigger role, ultimately turning into the COO role of how do we operate GitHub in the way that GitHub's always operated after the Microsoft acquisition. And kind of so on from there. So like for me, I think the— I've, I still code. I love coding but the problem has always been, people. It's a much harder problem to both support our own employees, a harder problem to communicate to developers and enterprise buyers what we're building why it matters, ‘cause those are two very different messages. And so getting to work in the mix of COO, CMO, also just being a dev, I think is what's kept me at GitHub for so long.AI Workflows for Leadership: Commits, Retrospectives, and ContextSwyx [00:03:40]: Apparently, you have— your commits have gone up. What's this? What's going on?Kyle [00:03:45]: Rui's called me out pretty aggressively. So I think— as you can imagine, right, you can see my normal era of being a dev In the twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen era, and then moving into management, and then ultimately the COO role. I think what you see there is me, really getting back to coding thanks to AI. I— similar to, attaching problems between how to market and how to operate a business and how to code, I find, building agents and workflows that are connecting very disparate problems to be what's driving this. So that's, some of it's writing software. A lot of it is, connecting a ton of a different data sources to, help me out. But that is completely me really diving in on the AI side in trying out our tools, trying out everyone's tools, But building for me, building for the non-technical leader, though I'm technical and how we're, able to use these tools more than just the simple, call and response that I think a lot of the non-technical, your employers, you have to get— you have to use AI, and so everyone uses, ChatGPT or Copilot or Claude or whatever. To really get into, how is this going to help me out, it— I find that it's not the I need to write a blog post, I need to those simple examples. Helping people find the workflows of, “Okay, I need you to go through all the PRs today. I need you to go through everything that we've posted online. I need you to go through what we did the last three months. Go through all of my Obsidian notes for any mentions of this then go through my transcripts at work.” We use, Teams, so, using WorkIQ, go call that MCP server, grab all the transcripts, go through all the Slack, and then build me out the plan of, what this week's messaging actually was. That's something that was, impossible because for me, I find AI in a what most of this launch here is actually, less building forward. It's actually, a recursive loop backwards. I'm always looking at what had happened first. Go back through the week and tell me what we did, what worked, what didn't work? And then tell me in the next three or four days-What would you tweak based on this sort of like looking backwards and then looking ahead a little bit? I find that to be so much more valuable, especially for like non-technical, because that retrospection is actually LLMs are very good at that. Like finding all the patterns, pulling them out, and then applying that retrospection to just a couple of days or just like a short period of time. Is all a bunch of apps that I've built and launched a bunch of, internal tools. I use the new, GitHub Copilot app, the desktop app with workflows. Every time I crack open my laptop, it's running workflows for me. It's just a ton of different stuff and of course, it all ends up on, it all ends up on GitHub.Swyx [00:06:47]: Of course. That's where, that's where, stuff is hosted. Man, there's so much to ask you. I was going to leave the how do you run a company with AI thing at the end. I have to ask one— double click one thing. You said, you are looking back at the week. You're, you're understanding what happens. When you say we That's three thousand people. How?Rolling Out AI Internally: Skills, CLIs, and Company ContextKyle [00:07:09]: I think when we started rolling out AI internally beyond engineering, right? One of the things that I was really, passionate about is like we have to do this in a way where no one has to change how they work. I don't want to have to teach you a tool. I don't want to have to teach you something new. And so for us, we tried out a few tools. Most of them don't work because I got to get you on board? I got to teach you how to use it. What we've actually ended up doing is we've built like a set of skills internally. We have we each have our set of skills, and we've just been distributing even to the non-technical folks, the CLI. And then effectively, we're just giving it access to like read about everything that we're writing. So that's for us, that's usually GitHub, Teams, Email, and Slack. So Teams for, video chat, generally speaking.Swyx [00:08:03]: Teams and Slack?Kyle [00:08:04]: so we use Teams for video communication, but we don't use it for chat. W-we— GitHub for a long history, right? We're alwaysSwyx [00:08:13]: Also SlackKyle [00:08:14]: Talking about ChatOps and like everything is built into Slack. Like every command, every flow.Swyx [00:08:18]: So even though you have been acquired for I don't know, eight years nowKyle [00:08:22]: we stillSwyx [00:08:23]: You still use Slack?Kyle [00:08:23]: it's a purpose-built tool for us, and I think the reality is that moving off of it would be so bluntly expensive? Simply because all the tooling is, baked in with that paradigm. And they both have their pros and cons but they don't work the same way at all. We still use a bunch of different tools Because it's the purpose-built tools that We need. And thenSwyx [00:08:47]: Well, the same doesn't go for the rest of Microsoft, presumably.Kyle [00:08:50]: like the like various teams like operateSwyx [00:08:53]: They make their own decisionsKyle [00:08:54]: Various ways. I think it just matters what you're trying to what you're trying to do. But we do we do work across kind of every tool that we use, and then by giving everyone access to all of that context and the new WorkIQ MCP server, which is quite cool if you do live in the M365 like world. I can ask it all these backwards-facing questions, and it's incredibly important for our teams that are working remotely. There's a lot of stuff you miss when you're not in an office, and we are spread out all over the world. So most of that is looking back. And then we post, we post either auto-automatically into GitHub issues or discussions, these sorts of like findings or like our industry reports. Like what's happening this morning, today, yesterday. A little automation gets run. We'll use the app. We might use GitHub Actions like with, our agentic workflows just to go do that run, and then we push it into GitHub, and w-we keep having a conversation. So usually for us, it's about that sort of like looking back, looking forward on the non-technical side. And then of course for a lot of those folks, it's also building an app, pushing it to GitHub pages or pushing it somewhere to host it et cetera. But it's just like enabling everyone with that power of it's going to take me a week to figure this out. Instead, we're going “Okay I built a skill. Let's put it into a repo. We'll all share that skill together, and then we'll use the CLI or now the app-” “just to run it.”Micro Skills vs. Mega Skills: How GitHub Uses AI at WorkSwyx [00:10:26]: All right. I think, I think we're going straight into like the team management and productivity thing. I think a lot of people are getting various levels of LLM psychosis. How do you manage the bloat of skills? Like everyone Has their thing, and they're Like trying to promote it to the rest of their peers in their org, right? And obviously, whoever becomes a skill influencer internally becomes like an AI leader, right? Of sorts. I assume you have those.Kyle [00:10:50]: like I think we haveSwyx [00:10:52]: And I assume it's a mess a Yeah.Kyle [00:10:54]: there's like I— like I think the reality is there's two pieces. Like first is I think that we're ending the era of these like massive, beautiful, perfect skills that are just like not any of those things. ‘cause for a while, right every tweet every day is like go download the skills, the perfectly managed thing to do this entire workflow. And I think that like what we've found and what— I was just with my team, this week, and we were talking about the skill side, and we're really talking about these like incredibly micro skills that are just doing one thing for us very well Versus a skill that's going to do I said, that full report. That doesn't really exist on our side anymore. It's usually how do— like a single skill that's going to identify the most important marketing information given any MCP server. Like this is the most important thing. Less about stitch a bunch of tools together and have it produce this mega output because then weeks go by, months go by, things change, and you want to tweakSwyx [00:11:58]: It's brittleKyle [00:11:58]: Your mega skill and you're screwed? You can't do that. And so now we're really just talking about the Legos we're using and just letting the instruction book be something we're all putting together. Whereas I think a lot of AI skills for a while have been that mega instruction book style.Swyx [00:12:15]: I've, thought a lot about Postel's law. I don't know if that's a term that is, means things to folks. It's the idea that you should be liberal in what you accept and strict in what you output, right? And I think that's like a good framing principle for skills. This is my skills, obviously on GitHub. I feel like everyone should have like how like some repos In GitHub are special repos? I feel like we should sort of reify the slash skills and everyone like give it some kind of special presentation. Anyway, so, yeah, this is one of those like download Download anything, transcribe anything, and then you can string together the atomic skills that do one thing well Into like some kind of orchestration skill that calls other skills. I assume, does that match?Kyle [00:12:56]: I like I think so. I think that theSwyx [00:13:00]: Summarize anything.Kyle [00:13:01]: Like I think the- For me, summarizing something for I do communications and PR and analyst relations and marketing and customer activities, and so my summarize everything is very different for each one of those like Contexts. What ‘Cause if I'm summarizing something for an analyst, that's a very different thing than, probably how I'm going to summarize something for like a customer meeting or an engagement. So that's I think like the difference when we're talking about the like the tools I might use on Saturday or the skills I might use on a Saturday when it's just for Kyle. Yeah, those are kind of like they have an atomic actual tool underneath or maybe skill, and then Kyle cares about X. But I think when we're talking about work and enabling the the marketers, communicators there, it's the atomic, this is what good summarization is, and then this is what I care about as for marketing for communications For whatever. And that I think is like the interesting matrix problem when we go from like a developer set of concerns to all kinds of different professions, is that what that word means to me is different than it means to you is different than it means to the analyst or the salesperson, and that's where I think the matrix mess is that we're starting to like still starting to find. It's about these mega skills but they're all just slight permutations, but those permutations are really important. It's the difference between someone reading this and going “Did AI make this?” what Or “This makes total sense, and I would expect this when I'm giving a briefing to Gartner,” or like whatever else.Swyx [00:14:37]: I think the beauty of it maybe is that you don't have to be that careful about what goes in there. It doesn't have to exactly fit as long as it like roughly is contained in there. I used to complain about plugin hell, basically. Like when you have a framework and then you have a hundred things that you need to integrate, everyone does like the GitHub used to be bloated full of these things. And now we don't need them anymore ‘cause now you just use skills.Former Developers in Leadership: AI as a Creation MultiplierKyle [00:15:00]: And like I think the most magical thing is the just that like I can just also crack it open. Like Like yes, I could go like change the how the plugin is coded, or like I could go do that now with AI, but I think there's just something more magical about getting a response back and being “That's not right,” and then you just crack the skill open, you just type English words and it's different. That building block is just, I think very unique. Once I get everyone to kind of understand how to best how to best make those changes to get the most power out of them.Swyx [00:15:36]: Is there a— you have a your peer group that Of people like you. Is there a common framing for Something I'm feeling is, which is true, is that is this a golden age for former developers who are now in leadership? Because you can wield the tools, you would know the right words, you're maybe not too close to the details. Doesn't matter. But like you're more effective than someone who doesn't come from that background.Kyle [00:15:59]: I think that like the secret has always been your ability to identify patterns and solve problems, and I think that for folks that like myself that don't code day to day anymore, that has made me successful as a developer, made me successful as a COO and now CMO. And so now that I have access to get and write code, I'm now applying that sort of like pattern finding and problem solving, and I know enough still about how to then go and say, “Oh, I want to make an app, but I don't want to break into jail or create something that's not going to be able to work or to be deployed scale or whatever.” that ability to apply all that additional business knowledge and still code I think is what makes that so interesting to me. Slightly different than I think some of the other like technical leaders that became business leaders and now are going back to their apps and updating them. Good for them? But I think the more, much more interesting thing is, well, now I have this whole new set of expertise over ten plus years. Why not take that and use that as a developer with these AI tools? So I definitely think that makes me more powerful, but I think that's true for like every dev as well. Most of the dev friends I still have also have some other underlying skill and passion. There's really talented, very kind of linear computer science software devs, absolutely. I just find that the folks that came from a different career, went to school for something else, went off and did this random thing, and then became a software dev, or were a dev, did a random thing, came back. Learning that extra set of information, learning those extra skills, and now having the power of an AI where I can crank up fifteen agents on Saturday while my kids are doing lacrosse, That's like really powerful. And I think it gets me back to that feeling of like creation, and it's very hard to replicate that in most other senses? That first time you build an app and you click it and you show someone that's magical. And so being able to do that not just in code, but across all kinds of different assets that's, that's huge. We were doing we're doing our every year we do our revenue planning. We talk about okay, what is it going to look like for next year? And of course as you imagine, there's, slideshows everywhere talking about what are we going to talk about, what's the narrative, et cetera. And so as you said I'm “Okay, well, I could probably just like build something to build this and then that way I don't have to go build the whole spreadsheet or I have to pass it to my team.” So we went through this process, and I got all the information and used the skills I mentioned. I built like a little app just to make it so I could look at some of the information in a SQLite database, more easily. And I ultimately built this entire presentation without touching any of it and I was “Okay, I'm just going to present this to our CRO, the CFO, their teams,” without mentioning I'd built it with AI. I like built a skill to make it look very much not AI driven. Just not pretty.AI-Generated Presentations, Human Taste, and the Changing Chief of Staff RoleSwyx [00:19:03]: Like a design. Yeah.Kyle [00:19:03]: Not pretty. But just like very clearly not AI. Kind of like don't do anything interesting.Swyx [00:19:08]: That's, yeah, that is valuable.Kyle [00:19:08]: Just go Exactly. We did the whole thing through. It used my notes from Obsidian, it used all the context I mentioned before, the plans, and Never came up once that it was AI generated.Swyx [00:19:20]: It didn't matter.Kyle [00:19:20]: Never once. D It didn't matter. And so now I takeSwyx [00:19:23]: This is a toolKyle [00:19:23]: I can take that tool and go, “Look, I don't want you to go build slideshows.” They're just helping us share information with each other. If this thing can do it With a little bit of crafting from you and then we can look at it together, awesome. There's no value in all that extra work. I think that the ability to, make it look humanly bad and and build a little app to, manipulate the data I think is part of, that upside for devs that are now in leadership roles. Because, the thing that I feel like I said before, this that's all a people, that's all a people problem. I know if you've used a coworker or not to build a slide deck, unless you spent a bunch of time to not do it.Swyx [00:20:07]: I know, but like it was so, I think there's a certain charm to just being blatantly AI. ‘Cause I think that you're well, you're just honest about There may be mistakes here that I cannot vouch for. So how much value is there? But anyway I think, actually the real question I want to ask is, there's a— You were a chief of staff To Thomas. And in the pre-AI world, the that job would've been a chief of staff job of like Can you prep me these slides and all that? And now you do it yourself.Kyle [00:20:35]: I still, I still have a chief of staff. Because, the difference is it's sort of the discussion every time we have some sort of technology evolution is it's not that the jobs the roles don't all go away, they just change? And so yeah, I don't have someone spending all their time building out slides for me and presentations ‘cause I don't need that anymore. But now I need that person that is able to go and find all the different connections between humans in those discussions to help me find out, okay, I should be meeting with this group and this team, and they have an opportunity, and I'm going to be in San Francisco today, I'm going to be in Seattle tomorrow. Those sorts of human connection aspects are still incredibly valuable and has always been a big part of that chief of staff role. But now just like chiefs of staff are not opening up, letters to process, they're doing emails. What It's the same thing. And now they're, they're not building out as many of these presentations because they have the the ability to have a AI take it on for, and share that with me and great. Let's keep moving ‘cause it's allowing us to go faster and make better decisions more quickly.Swyx [00:21:45]: Awesome. Well, so we can dive into more sort of, Productivity insights as you go. I did want to do a little bit of a brief history of colleague and hub. Because, we started here. And then you also involved the NPM acquisition. I did, I do want to touch upon that. And then more recently, I just want to bring up to present day where we're having uptime issues Which transparently we've already Addressed publicly, but we'll, we'll discuss in the pod. Did I miss anything? Like what, any other major highlights? Obviously, it's, it's a lot of years to cover.A Brief History of GitHub: Webhooks, Actions, Acquisitions, and Platform EvolutionKyle [00:22:15]: No the I think one of one highlight was right before the acquisition closed in twenty eighteen, I got to launch the first version of ActionsSwyx [00:22:27]: OhKyle [00:22:27]: At GitHub Universe. So it was OSwyx [00:22:29]: They're that young?Kyle [00:22:30]: It was October of twenty eighteen, I think. Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:22:33]: Gee, Jesus.Kyle [00:22:34]: I got to I was the engineering leader on that project and got to launch that. And then, yeah, we did acquisitions of NPM you said, Semmle, Dependabot Pul Panda a whole bunch of things. That was a bigSwyx [00:22:47]: Pul Panda.Kyle [00:22:48]: Abi is doing well.Swyx [00:22:51]: DX. Holy crap.Kyle [00:22:52]: Did well on DX. I and like that was a that was the big shift, after the acquisition. I had to join the sort of business side.Swyx [00:23:00]: So I need to hit you on some of these things ‘cause you were there. Right? And how often do I get to talk to someone who was there? But yeah, Actions. Is that the number one source of security issues on GitHub?Kyle [00:23:11]: Oh, sh I think that the number one source of, security issues is probably like all, the literal code in everyone's like underlying repositories. I would say back further than that is, if you remember I had to show in this graph was this is, I'm, didn't say this before, this is ultimately webhooks.Swyx [00:23:30]: You yeah.Kyle [00:23:31]: Like circa whatever it was.Swyx [00:23:32]: It says Hookshot in there.Kyle [00:23:32]: I forget. Yeah. Yeah, Hookshot's in there. And so like back then, it says GitHub Services. Do you see, it says Hookshot FE for front end, and then it says GitHub Services. GitHub Services back in the old days, right? You we had a repository that was Ruby code, and you could write any Ruby code in there, and then we would execute that On your behalf As a service, and then that way if an if you were trying to integrate with something, it didn't we would run it for you.Swyx [00:23:57]: And of course no containers ‘causeKyle [00:23:58]: No, ‘cause it wasSwyx [00:23:59]: Well, no containersKyle [00:24:00]: Twenty fourteen. And so there was some isolation obviously, but it was mostly the separations on the server level. That's like an example as long as the very old version of Pages, which ran on its own containerization infrastructure, not on Actions.Swyx [00:24:15]: Which like all-time great product.Kyle [00:24:16]: Pages powers the internet at this point to some degree. Those were places where like clearly there were no like issues like to my knowledge. But it was those things where I'm looking at and going “Okay, well we can't be running arbitrary Ruby code,” like on everyone's behalf. Then containerizing all of that up intoUh into actions now where yeah the containerization, is r-really good. The pinning most folks aren't pinning it the like to a particularSwyx [00:24:48]: ImagesKyle [00:24:48]: Sha, et cetera like their workflows, and so that's a big that's a big place Of pain for folks if they're just doing similar to any dependency management, just V1 or newest or latest, I think. But, that journey from that day to “Okay, we're just going to run all this arbitrary code, and, it'll basically be okay,” to now, no, we have, really good containerization. We have a new, underlying, ag-agent, containerization, service. It's like we're using it under the hood. It's through Azure. They recently announced it. The Azure, Dev Compute, but it's, very fast, very fast compute to be able to, spin up your own cloud agents, or whatnot. We're using it under the hood for some parts of the new,Swyx [00:25:36]: Microsoft Dev Box?Kyle [00:25:37]: No. Dev Compute, yeah.Swyx [00:25:41]: Hmm. Not finding it just yet.Kyle [00:25:44]: Oh, it's, it's in there somewhere.Swyx [00:25:46]: All right. Well, we'll cut that out.Kyle [00:25:47]: Sorry. But with, Dev Compute, you can, run, really fast, spin up really, small VMs really quickly, so you're doing a tool callSwyx [00:25:58]: Same conceptKyle [00:25:58]: Just do it containerize exact-exactly. So we're using that so definitely moving that direction to protect us from every every piece of code that we're ultimately running.Swyx [00:26:07]: look, that grows into the full SDLC? Code hosting was just the start and and then it's grown beyond that. Let's talk about NPM may-maybe ‘cause I think that's also, a very major point in the industry. I do think, it was looking for a home. It was, kind of struggling as a business, right? I don't know, I don't know how you would characterize that whole acquisition and how itNPM, Package Security, and Keeping the Internet RunningKyle [00:26:33]: like when we were talking to the team, I think the big thing for the both of us was to find a way to keep NPM, which was basically powering the internet then and way more so now to some degree running. Keep it going keep continuing to scale. It was having scaling problems, if I recall, back at that time. They were doing some rewrites. ItSwyx [00:27:00]: that's cute compared to now.Kyle [00:27:01]: Well, that's the thing is like when I'm talking to folks now, there's there's so many more underlying uses of NPM than there were back when we had them join in with GitHub. But that was ultimately the goal. It was really okay, we used to have pages. We have, the world's code. Let's make sure that we can keep NPM running well for the world. And we put a bunch of time and investment into fixing some of the underlying backend, changes, some of which we talked about some of the manifest work, et cetera. And then now, really trying to bring the the security posture of NPM up to speed. But, it is a unique challenge in that every move that we make to make it more secure will break a lot of people. And security is paramount. And also, we take it very seriously. We're, the any time that we have a problem with GitHub or we make a change that makes us more secure but hurts, there's, a snow day for developers or a really bad fire that they have to go put out. And so we've, have changed the 2FA policies. We've changed the way the tokens work. When we find tokens that have been exposed or potentially, exposed, we invalidate them, andSwyx [00:28:22]: I love that feature in GitHub. Yeah, it's greatKyle [00:28:23]: That creates issues, but, the but that's the thing is we're trying to push the community, forward without necessarily, doing something that is going to break the contract that's been for 15 years or close to it or some amount of years on NPM.Slop Forks, Vendoring, and the Future of Open Source Supply ChainsSwyx [00:28:43]: I think the— So now we're talking about, open source and publishing. And I think there's something here with what people are calling slop forks, which, I think Malta from Vercel is doing. And, part of me thinks, well, the way to get past any vulnerabilities, we just, let's just get rid of the concept of NPM. And we only publish source code. And anytime you want to import it you have your coding agent look at it and then adapt whatever subset you're going to use into your vendor it. But, the AI vendor it. Is that realistic? I don't know. Is it— Will that solve all our security issues? I don't know.Kyle [00:29:24]: I don't think it'll solve I so Mitchell was just talking Mitchell Hashimoto Was just talking about this today, and I think that I-in some ways, it's all all things, old or new again? Yeah, absolutely vendoring everything. Like I do I do remember twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.Swyx [00:29:42]: This is Yeah. Let's, we must return toKyle [00:29:43]: That's what is We were vendoring everything. We were having actual discussions around, or at least I remember we were “Should we take this full thing?” “Why is this so big? We only need this one file.” And so I do think there's something true there where having either taking only what you need or the dependencies just getting incredibly small over time, I think will help to some degree, but it's not going to solve the fundamental problem, I don't think, because the vulnerabilities in an agent looking at them, there's time and time again, there's a million different ways in which we can convince an agent that this thing is, secure or not and pull it in. Or we can do static code analysis or runtime testing to say whether the code works or not. That is, I think, the step that needs to continue to be, invested in. The question is just on, how much scope. Should it be this enormous project that I'm pulling down, or should it be this piece? Either most companies are running some amount of security checking on the on the packages that they're bringing in or vendoring. That I think won't change. That's like what advanced security does to some degree, Socket does some degree. Like everyone is doing a piece of that. How we each do that like especially when we're talking to enterprise customers, is just like very different. No there's no one wants one single way to do it. And I think that's always been GitHub's, unique position in the world. I talk a lot to maintainers, I talk a lot to folks about this. It's we're— we rarely start like a process and a practice and like push it onto the community. We usually wait for the sort of like RFC process socially or literally, everyone agreeing, and then we'll cement something in. Because otherwise we'reMaintainers, RFCs, Vouching, and the Social Layer of TrustSwyx [00:31:35]: That fits your role in the ecosystem, yeahKyle [00:31:36]: We're GitHub. Yeah, we don't want to shape the whole thing. We want it to be figured out. But like how do you balance that like sort of Role in the industry to keep everything as secure as is possible and make sure that you're you're not going to be compromised as a human, ‘cause that's usually how it all happens. And Not not create a process or lock us into a flow that you're not going to or like Mitchell's not going to or other open source projects aren't going to like. That's always been a tricky balance for us, and I think that's something that we haven't talked about enough is we're not going to be able to fix everything for everyone in a way that everyone is going to like. So tell, help us, tell us what is working. When Mitchell was talking about, the Upvote, the upSwyx [00:32:22]: I was going to bring up his thing. Yeah.Kyle [00:32:23]: I forget what it Yeah. When he's talking to us, I was chatting with him and talking to him about this and I put it on Twitter and we talked to, also over DM, was “We're going to keep working.” but I think the important thing is I do actually want to hear what isn't working for you. And as, be as specific and clear for your project as is possible. And to every piece of credit over the many years that we've known each other through the industry, he's always done that and I appreciate that ‘cause there are places that we need to fix up, and we hear from him, and we'll fix up just like we do all other kinds of maintainers. But that that process between making those types of improvements and being more secure and like creating, I forget what he calls it's not the proof process, not the claims process. Do what I'm talking about? He has that he his projects have a way for you to kind of like,Swyx [00:33:13]: VouchKyle [00:33:13]: Vouch. Thank you. Yeah. He has like the vouch system for saying, “Hey, you should accept my PRs.” That's beenSwyx [00:33:20]: I just built this into GitHub. I don't know.Kyle [00:33:22]: Well, see, but that's the thing is that you say that and like he and his community really likes this and then I'll go talk to other maintainers and other maintainers, globally, and they're “No, this doesn't work for me.” And that is the tension, but also the kind of beauty of GitHub, depending on which way you look at it is we want to help maintainers, so we create all these tools to let you have more control over how much you take in from AI and PRs. But you can also use this. What You can go use this project, and if it takes off and becomes the kind of mostly standard, then yeah, we probably wouldn't enforce it but we would add it in because that's the flow that we tend to do?Swyx [00:34:02]: I hear a lot of people don't know the history of the pull request. And like like that's how, that's something that GitHub standardized basically.Kyle [00:34:08]: Yeah. It was a very messy process Like beforehand, and now the we have the benefit of it being the process? And now we have to go and Figure out the next best process or what adaptations change, or what does a pull request look like when eighty percent of your PRs are just coming from your agents and not From other devs?Swyx [00:34:31]: Do you like the prompt request idea from Peter?Kyle [00:34:34]: like I think that for each like each idea I think has its merits. I'm not, I'm not avoiding saying anything good or bad, but I feel like I've seen a version of we have that we have entire Thomas' store. Take all the assets of what you've built and put that in. I think that's got great ideas. There's all these various permutations of the PR flow, but I think the reason why there's not a single answer is ultimately we're trying to codify trust. We're trying to say “Okay, if Sean reviews this I'm going to trust it because you're Sean or you're the senior dev or you're the whatever.” And right now, when we are working in a flow where an agent writes code and another agent reviews code and then Kyle goes and looks at it the trust is kind of diffuse. And most of the tools that we're talking about are talking more about verification flows. We have more assets to look at, so I can probably say whether this is a good PR or not. But that still doesn't solve, I think, the human problem of I'm looking at a PR and I want to know if I can trust it. And we're still, we still tend to use human signals for that? Mitchell approving it or Kyle approving it or whatever. And so I think that's, I think that's why most of these options haven't really solved it is because, it's a social problem ultimately. It's a it's a human problem to review it and agree. Or you fully trust the tool and you're imbuing that tool with full trust Which I think in some cases that absolutely exists.AI-Generated PRs, Trust, and the Waymo AnalogySwyx [00:36:08]: And so like in the same way that there will be a tipping point in society when we don't allow humans to drive anymore Because machines are measurably better than Than humans. I'm looking for that tipping point, right? Like Mythos is ridiculously expensive. Someday we'll have Mythos on a desktop. I don't know. Will, does that change the equation?Kyle [00:36:30]: I think it's more I took a Waymo here, and I was on my phone and not looking around at all. There are other, self-driving, vehicles that I would not trust while, staring at the road. And I think that trust is something that isSwyx [00:36:48]: Is this a Zoox thing? What is itKyle [00:36:50]: I think that is both. I think that is both. LikeSwyx [00:36:53]: There's Zoox in this robo taxi. That's it. It'sKyle [00:36:56]: Well, depending on what level Of self-driving. But, my point is sort of that I think part of that is I strongly believe that's, a mixture of verifiable proof. Like how many accidents, how much data, and so on, and the human aspect of how I feel when I'm in this car, what it tells me, et cetera. And so that's why I think some of the like Some of these some of our AI tools tend to, imbue me with more of that feeling of trust, even if the data says this is 100% accurate. I feel like it takes more time for us to go, “Should I trust this or not?” And that's in the soft sense of, startups with high agency, weekend projects, and open source. And then there's enterprises and regulated industries and everything else, and that is an even harder problem to go solve because even when it is fully verified, not only do you have to have trust from the humans on the team, you probably have to have trust from multinational,Swyx [00:37:55]: Oh my GodKyle [00:37:55]: Multi governments around the world and regulating agencies. And so that's where I feel like until we tip over to your point on the sort of like human EQ side of it. I feel okay this feels okay I've been proven enough. Then the ball will start to roll a lot faster, where we'll end up getting to the “Okay, we can trust this,” and feel good about it in the Most difficult of cases.Reputation, Sponsors, Stars, and Bot Activity on GitHubSwyx [00:38:18]: If human trust is the thing that matters, I feel like GitHub as the developer social network could maybe do more there. Like vouchers are one system But, we have star counts, and then we have Contributor rights, and that's it. And I feel like there should be more in that space. I don't know if there's any other design decisions there.Kyle [00:38:37]: I think that one of the places that we don't really expose right now in this sort of way is, some degree of like hard trust and support, which would like for me is like sponsors is a good example of that.Swyx [00:38:49]: Ah.Kyle [00:38:49]: It like costs you something. To prove that I believe in your project and I trust you To some degree or I want to support you at the very least.Swyx [00:38:56]: Solve payments for open source. Why not?Kyle [00:38:58]: I think that I think that like as we keep moving forward, right, there's more and more projects where I'm, adding more and more dollars into sponsors personally because I want to like support them, but I also like know of I've probably never met them in person, but, I know of enough of their work that I want to support them. I think the thing that I don't love about stars or commit counts or anything else is ultimately, even with all of the various, abuse and de-spamming and deduplication work that we do or anti-abuse work that we do, these are all, not active social signals. They're passive ones that are ultimately gamifiable. And you may trust me, but another open source maintainer may not. And on what heuristic should you be, trusting me? That I think, is kind of where some of our thinking is right now. What signal from me is most important to you? You— If you can define that potentially, honestly in an agentic workflow that's what we see some of these open source projects do, where you have GitHub actions, and then you have like an agentic workflow that's calling AI, and you're setting these rules. Like if Kyle has submitted and gotten accepted PRs across any given project and has a social handle tied to his account in GitHub, and that social account's older than a certain amount. Really complex measures that matter to you ‘cause most open source projects have that heuristic built into their heads, if not written down in the contributing guidelines. You could take that and then go apply that and then just say, “Oh, we're not going to accept this PR.” Building something that is, I think, malleable to everyone's needs, is a little bit better, rather than going “Hmm, this account's too young.” Because what happens? The attackers just go and go and create a multitude of accounts, and they wait Until it ages up. Needs to have a certain amount of stars. That's how star inflation happens. Need to have a certain amount of reposSwyx [00:40:46]: Oh my God. YeahKyle [00:40:47]: With PRs. They all just create repos and submit PRs to each other, and then they come in and do something nefarious. And so, it's hard. It's hard to find the measure. So I think we're, we're looking more at how can we provide you tools so you can kind of choose what's best for you. And of course, we'll give you some standards. But the trust vector, gets down to I don't know, some version of like human digital ID like everyone's been talking about. Like how do I prove that it's meSwyx [00:41:13]: Give me your eyeballsKyle [00:41:14]: On the internet. Give me your eyeballs. Exactly.Swyx [00:41:18]: The I got to keep moving on Topics, but obviously I can go all day on this stuff because, I've been involved in GitHub and open source My entire professional career. Stars. Very superficial. Everyone knows it. But I think time to one hundred thousand stars is the fastest I've ever seen. Like people just reached that in I don't know, months. And then like at the same time I don't trust it right? Like how many of these are real or bot or like whatever. I don't know how to ask this but like what can we do about it? LikeKyle [00:41:49]: JustSwyx [00:41:49]: Is stars broken? Is stars fine?Kyle [00:41:51]: I think that there's kind of two, there's like two pieces. Obviously we're constantly like trying to find ways in which like your users are producing spam, which would, I would include like be like only doing star gamification. When we find them, we pluck ‘em out and we,Swyx [00:42:08]: But it's like a Whac-A-MoleKyle [00:42:10]: It's a hundred percent like a Whac-A-MoleSwyx [00:42:11]: There's no wayKyle [00:42:11]: Now, powered by AI to be helpful. But I think more so what I'm seeing is, a lot of the like fastest time to X tends to be because we're now inviting so many more people into like software development on GitHub That like the zeitgeist is just swarming? And it'sSwyx [00:42:32]: It's not just developers anymoreKyle [00:42:33]: And it's not you and I. Like like however you want to say like what a developer is it's not just folks who have been coding for a very long time. It's folks that have maybe started coding or only joined in since the AI era. And nowSwyx [00:42:44]: what's the latest Octoverse number? I know eighty million was my lastRem- member that a number of developers on GitHubKyle [00:42:50]: Oh, we're over 200 million now.Swyx [00:42:53]: Okay. Well, so you see?Kyle [00:42:55]: Like over 200 million developers now.Swyx [00:42:56]: But it's not developers, right? It's, it's people with a GitHub account.What Counts as a Developer in the AI Era?Kyle [00:43:00]: So, so this is, this is the biggest debate that I would say, everyone loves to have at GitHub at this point. From my perspective, right, I think that there's, there's clearly a difference between, professional enterprise developer and then developers. But I think that I think that the idea that we should be I don't know, splitting hairs or segmenting developers in the early era of software development is, not worth our not worth the time. SoSwyx [00:43:29]: When you get into gatekeepingKyle [00:43:31]: 100%Swyx [00:43:31]: What is a developer?Kyle [00:43:31]: 100%. ‘Cause I wasn't a developer when I started writing code? I was going toSwyx [00:43:36]: Oh, no. I made— I cloned a thing, seven years before I learned to code. And then I and then I wrote about my learning to code journey, and people Just called me a fraud ‘cause I had a GitHub account. And I'm “Well, no, I just use GitHub, but I don't know-” “I didn't know what I was doing.”Kyle [00:43:49]: I I remember that. I remember those sets of posts, and like that's, that's b******t. So I fight very clearly on the line of, if you create code, if you have an idea and you create it into some way of, I'm, I'm going to run it and use the app right now, you may still use AI in that moment, but that's okay. At some point you're going to do the next thing. You're going to create a big— You're going to have to learn about this database. You're going to fix a bug, whatever. We're all on some same journey, and those people are also hearing about the great new agent skill package or a new CLI tool or a new whatever. And those projects are going up because you want to be a part of this moment, just like I wanted to be a part of the Ruby community when Ruby was popping off when I started becoming a developer, and now I can just click the star button. And so I think that yes, there's clearly some amount of like spamming and game gamification that we're working against, but I really think we're just seeing this whole new cohort of folks that are moving from technology to technology because they're not working on a 20-year-old software application. They're working on a side app that they built on the weekend for their friends or for their new idea or whatever. And that's how you see these enormous charts going up and to the right with With stars.Swyx [00:44:59]: I think something that's remarkable is the persistence or, that GitHub extends to those folks. Usually when I see platforms go into a new audience, they usually have to, have like a second platform with a different name that wraps the main platform. But somehow GitHub has been able to sort of persist and extend, and it's friendly and whatever? So it's, it's nice.Spark, Low-Code, and Always Showing the CodeKyle [00:45:19]: I that's partially why I think as we've tried to move into I don't know, more like low-code-y things. We so we started working on Spark as like a way to, build an app and run it. I think that the reality is that we anytime we try to, kind of put even a veneer on top of it without when we put a veneer on top of something, we still always show you the code. That's kind of like a tenant. We're never going to, hide the code from you ever, because whatSwyx [00:45:52]: Why would you?Kyle [00:45:52]: That's, yeah, that's the whole point? However, I think that what we learned with things like Spark is that really the value of Spark for most devs is, easy runtime. And you may have a runtime or a host that you're going to use for that or you just build something and run it but, the package of making that even more simple isn't really needed for folks that are trying to build software and not just trying to build, an app, which is, slightly different, a slightly different goal. So I want to get you in, I want to get you comfortable. I think the best thing for me as, someone that did not traditionally come into software dev way back, I want anyone to be able to breach that chasm and not be in the I don't know, I feel like we're, we're still in an era of, STEM. I've got a 12-year-old and an eight-year-old, and it's “We got to get ‘em into STEM,”? Over and over. And I like I do, I do the things that good parents do. I was “Oh, you want to do coding?” “Yes, I want to do coding.” Do coding classes. But now they're just not afraid of doing software. And that's, I think, the thing that's honestly kept me at GitHub for so long. Anyone should be able to go and build a thing, just like I can go change a light switch in my house. I'm not going to go into the breaker box ‘cause I'll probably kill myself? But, I can go change that light switch. Everyone should be able to go and say, “This fricking app doesn't do what I want. I want it to work like this.” And that I think, is what's kind of kept us all connected with GitHub through the years and some and during the easiest of times or in the hard times because of that opportunity of, we're the home for all developers, and we want everyone to be able to have that feeling that we've had of, had an idea, I created it and holy s**t here it is.Swyx [00:47:37]: Here it is. All right, I'm going to try to do more spicy questions.GitHub's Hardest Scaling Moment: Growth, Agents, and UptimeKyle [00:47:42]: Great.Swyx [00:47:42]: Is it an easy time now or a hard time?Kyle [00:47:45]: Oh at GitHub? It's a hard time. Like, it's a hard time and also, I was just with my team and I said, “This is also, the best and most exciting time that I think I can remember at GitHub.” BecauseSwyx [00:47:57]: Best of times, worst of times. It's never oneKyle [00:47:59]: ‘cause we've we were talking about Octoverse reports and, usually we do an Octoverse report once a year, and we look at the numbers, and we say, “Oh my goodness.” I was at Universe in October saying, “This was the fastest year of growth that we've ever had,” right? And now we're doing more in a month than we did in a year last year.Swyx [00:48:20]: You're talking about PRs.Kyle [00:48:21]: Commits.Swyx [00:48:21]: Commits, yeah.Kyle [00:48:22]: PRs. Kind of like you name it by roughly every measure that we're looking at, there's some amount of sort of growth that is much bigger, and that is breaking our system in new ways, not old ways. Like webhooks were always notoriously, unreliable over the years?Swyx [00:48:38]: Whose fault is that?Kyle [00:48:39]: not anymore mine, but for a period of time, I'm sure you could pull up a tweet that was “It was me. I'm sorry.” but, now, that got rewritten at a scale level that is still working and is not having problems today. Now what we're finding isn't just the isn't the-The simple stuff that folks are on the sometimes on Twitter or on the internet are “Hey, why is this like this?” Sure. There's absolutely silly problems that we shouldn't exist. But now we're talking about, unique, novel permission problems that happen only at a scale across all different objects or whatever, that now we have to go rewrite this underlying system. And so it's, there are problems that yeah, caught us off guard, which I think I said. Like the growth is astronomical, but also we're making such material progress in that I'm excited once we're once we've kind of like reimagined the underlying foundation layer, or pieces of it at least, what's going to be possible when it's not just all of us and all the new people that are being developers and all of their agents and all the tools like working together. Because that'll still happen in that in that GitHub tool, that GitHub community. But it's a it's a hard day anytime we can't give you what you're looking for. We have the same problem internally. We operate through github. Com. Of course, we have backups when things go down and whatnot for our own operations but we feel it too. If it's not working it's not working for us, and that's kind of like the promise of dogfooding for GitHub. It's always been true. We're using the same tool you're using. We're not using a super secret version. We and so we also need it to be great for us for our customers of course for open source. And now an exponential growth of agents, Doing it too.Swyx [00:50:32]: I wanted to load for audio listeners who maybe haven't seen your tweets, whatever. So one billion commits in twenty-five. Now it's two hundred and seventy-five million per week on pace for fourteen billion this year, if growth remains linear. Is that still the pace? I don't know. It's been aKyle [00:50:48]: it's, it's speedingSwyx [00:50:50]: Roughly.Kyle [00:50:50]: It's still speeding up.Swyx [00:50:51]: It's, it's April, so yeah.Kyle [00:50:51]: Exactly. This was in April.Swyx [00:50:53]: All right. So basically you have fourteen x growth, right? Year on year on year. And I think that's a scaling issue. I think, I'm going to like try to really steel man this thing. People have experienced fourteen x growth. They haven't had your downtime. And that's like— C-can we go dig into that? Why? Like what's the— what broke? What are we doing to fix it? Like just anything for the community to reassure them.Why GitHub Reliability Is Breaking in New WaysKyle [00:51:18]: so there's a Like I was saying, there's a couple different places that we've seen the growth issues. Some of the growth issues, which is why we're t— I was talking about pushing hard on more CPUs is in actions in particular. More tools, more agents, more PRs mean more builds, more builds mean more CPUs. And so we are expanding through not just our data center, but obviously we were talking about moving to Azure and moving to, adding an additional cloud compute because we simply need more CPUs. Not as much GPUs. We definitely need GPUs too, but now CPUs are becoming a factor.Swyx [00:51:53]: It's very CPU heavy.Kyle [00:51:54]: Underneath the hood when it comes to some of the underlying services, we've been breaking up over the years our database infrastructure, so that way we have, more cognitive separation between our the various services. The place that we continue to have pain is in, permissioning. And so right now m-many of our permissioning layers sit into a database that we like internally call MySQL One, and old Hubbers will know what I'm talking about. And so we've been pulling things out of MySQL One for many years, because like and we use we use Vitess and we use other technologies to shard and we do it as one bigSwyx [00:52:31]: Famous thing, PlanetScale was born from this andKyle [00:52:32]: A hundred percent. Sam Old Hubber and friend. And so finding these opportunities to like break this out and then do that globally. The other thing that I think is interesting and both a unique opportunity and tricky is we also run everything I just talked about in a black box container with GitHub Enterprise Server for people that work on-prem. So we take everything I just said, and we also do it on-prem, and we also do all of that and we do it in a data residence setup for customers that need to have their data in a single location. Each of these has the unique characteristic around how we're sort of storing that data in MySQL or in a permissioning setup. That's where some of these outages have oc-occurred, where you're seeing it more like across the board rather than just like the one pieceSwyx [00:53:17]: Filling the databaseKyle [00:53:17]: Isn't quite working. Exactly. And so part of it is that. I think there's been some other places where agents are much more or more projects appear to be moving towards monorepo versus we were going the other direction for many years in the industry. Repos were smaller, but there were more of them, and now we're seeing the opposite. Repos are bigger, and there's, not fewer of them per se ‘cause there's new growth, but, we're just seeing many more big repos. Big repos, big monorepos have always had, a unique performance problem. Because each one, is slightly different if, particularly if the underlying blobs are incredibly big Inside the repos. And so we've done a ton of work that you pro— like most people haven't probably experienced, unless you're in this case of the monorepo. But that Git, infrastructure layer improvement does help the overall, system because, many of the improvements that make monorepos work better make all repo infrastructure work better. And so, I could kind of keep going down the line where it's another thing where we're moving out of, We're changing how we do j I'll just say job queuing for lack of a better, explanation changing the underlying technologies there.Swyx [00:54:32]: I spent two years being a job queuing guy, so.Kyle [00:54:34]: And so it's kind of a little bit of a little bit of piece by piece, and it's mostly because as we were— as it was built, we built everything in a way that assumed, I guess in some ways that the size of the pipe of work was going to remain the same. There's just going to be more people coming through each of those pipes. But instead now in places whereA git push was, generally a certain size for example, is now, no longer true.Swyx [00:55:03]: Oh, yeah.Kyle [00:55:03]: OrSwyx [00:55:05]: I push a thousandKyle [00:55:06]: On the average. 100%Swyx [00:55:06]: A thousand line commits like dailyKyle [00:55:07]: Same thing with PRs. Like PRs same thing. And like we've talked about optimizing that and making changes where, and there were technology choices that did not work there? And it got slow, and it didn't It was not fast. It did not do what the users wanted. And so we've been reeling that all out and going “Okay, that's just not right. Let's stop putting good money after bad and do it the do it the right way or the right way now.” So there's It's a it's a lot of things, not quite when I've experienced scale at GitHub historically, it's almost always two options that we've used. We go vertical scaling, particularly with databases, right? And we go horizontal scaling. Oh, we just have more people using this service. Great. We're going to add more servers, and we rack them in our data center, or we use it in a cloud. And now we're sort of in a like diagonal, where like vertical doesn't really work anymore. Horizontal isn't work either because we're all We all have some CPU or GPU constraints in the world now, and now we have to go in and like crack open services that have been running for 10 or 15 years and go, “Okay, the rules of this service have legitimately changed, and now we have to rewrite them.” None of this is an excuse. This is like we're We have to do the work. We have to make it better.Swyx [00:56:22]: actually as an infra guy, I'm “This is like one of the most fascinating scaling challenges I've ever seen.”Kyle [00:56:26]: That's that's, that's the thing that's the thing that it's hard for Like when we weren't talking about it publicly, and I was like I came out, and I was “Hey, I just want to explain what's going on.” Part of it comes from a very old GitHub ethos, which is it's our it's our uptime. It's down. W What I know you're a developer, so you're, you're inclined to want to understand more what's going on. But at the same time us going “Hey, this service didn't, perform the way we expected, and now we have to go change it,” we weren't We're not trying to hide anything from you i

Scott Hanselman talks with Omar Shorbaji from the Anyscale engineering team about how Anyscale on Azure scales Python AI workloads from a single notebook to thousands of CPUs and GPUs. Built on Ray, the most widely adopted AI compute engine, Anyscale gives you a unified runtime to build, train, and serve, running directly on Azure Kubernetes Service without the complexity of managing Kubernetes. See a live demo that fine-tunes a vision-language-action robotics policy, with the metrics you need to push GPU utilization higher. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction 00:52 - Ray and the Anyscale platform 03:11 - Start of demo: Workspaces 04:38 - Running a job and viewing utilization metrics 05:24 - Choosing the right scale 06:53 - Abstracting Kubernetes on AKS 08:53 - Wrap up and where to learn more Recommended resources Learn Docs Anyscale on Azure Connect Scott Hanselman | Twitter/X: @SHanselman Anyscale | Twitter/X: @anyscalecompute Azure Friday | Twitter/X: @AzureFriday Azure | Twitter/X: @Azure

We're announcing AIEWF speakers this week! Take the AI Engineering Survey!Today's guest Ethan first joined us for the LS Paper Club as the lead on NVIDIA Cosmos World Model, but then joined xAI and built Grok Imagine in 3 months:He comes back on Latent Space with some nuclear hot takes: that Video Models primarily get their intelligence from LLMs, not from training on video data, and that the next frontier for truly interactive, realtime, long-horizon world models is to work on LLMs (perhaps Interaction Models as well…)Put it this way: In the near term, the next Sora won't be a better video model, but a video agent.Generative Media may more closely follow the evolution of AI coding which went from focusing on one-shot output performance and cost, to multiturn reasoning and planning models for agents and systems that can plan, edit, test, debug, and submit PRs.At a certain point, coding models got so good that the only significant next step to improve performance was handling the orchestration of these models.Now as the performance of video models increases significantly across realism, consistency, & prompt adherence while becoming more cost efficient, the next evolution of video generation may also be systems that can plan, generate, edit, critique, and iterate across an entire creative task. In this episode, Ethan joins swyx and Vibhu to unpack what it actually takes to build frontier image and video systems: data, VAEs, diffusion transformers, audio-video alignment, inference speedups, and the hidden cost of storing and moving massive video datasets. From building NVIDIA's Cosmos world model to joining xAI as Grok Imagine was being built from zero to one, Ethan He has been at the center of some of the most important work in video generation, multimodal models, and real-time world models.We go deep on Grok Imagine, how a small xAI team shipped its first multimodal video model in three months, why iteration speed matters more than almost anything in model development, and why many of the biggest gains come from fixing tiny bugs in data and training pipelines. Flipbook: The future of VideomaxxingVideo agents are almost a sure bet to be the trend in the coming year. We end with a glance at what's beyond video agents:Flipbook caused a minor sensation this year when it was released, but most treat it as a fun demo. Ethan takes it very seriously — with the speed and cost of inference coming down every year, the future of custom video JIT UI is closer than you think. We talked about why videogen models may become the front end of AI, how generative UI could replace traditional HTML/CSS, why world models need to be real-time, interactive, and long-horizon, and why the future of video generation may depend more on language models and agents than on diffusion alone.We discuss:* Why fast iteration mattered more than meetings* Why small training bugs can drive huge model quality gains* Why coding models may make compute the bottleneck again* How image and video models are trained with synthetic captions* The role of VAEs and latent space in frontier video models* Why image models are the foundation for video models* The tradeoff between temporal compression and real-time interactivity* Flipbook, Neural OS, and the future of generative UI* Why future interfaces may go from user intent to pixels* The hidden cost of training video models: storage, egress, and GPU hours* How step distillation and consistency models (like OpenAI sCM) makes video inference orders of magnitude faster* Grok Imagine 0.9 and large-scale audio-video generation* Why audio-video alignment is harder than text-video alignment* Ethan's definition of world models* Reference-to-video, video extension, and long-context video generation* Why xAI's research communication undersells Grok Imagine* How xAI culture shaped the speed of development* AI watermarking, SynthID, and detecting generated media* Why prompt rewriting matters for video models* Grok Imagine Agent and the rise of video agents* Why language models may unlock better video generation* Robotics, physical AI, and embodied world models* Why Ethan left xAI and shifted focus toward LLMs* Self-managed context, memory, and the next frontier for language modelsEthan He* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanhe42* X: https://x.com/EthanHe_42Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:01:25 From NVIDIA Cosmos to xAI00:03:24 Building Grok Imagine from Zero to One00:10:07 How Image and Video Models Are Trained00:18:53 Video Compression, VAEs, and Real-Time Tradeoffs00:22:10 Generative UI, Flipbook, and Neural OS00:32:10 The Cost of Training Large Video Models00:37:04 Distillation, GANs, and Fast Video Inference00:41:21 Audio-Video Generation and Grok Imagine 0.900:48:34 What Makes a World Model?00:55:51 Reference Videos, Long Context, and Video Memory01:00:11 xAI Culture, Research, and First-Principles Building01:09:45 AI Safety, Watermarking, and Prompt Rewriting01:13:10 Video Agents and AI-Assisted Creation01:27:32 Why Language Models Unlock Better Video01:31:15 Robotics, Physical AI, and Embodied World Models01:32:38 Why Ethan Left xAI01:34:16 Self-Managed Context and the Future of LLMs01:38:43 Ethan's Career Path and Closing ThoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Ethan He, Latent Space, and the Path to xAISwyx [00:00:00]: We're here in the studio with Ethan He, most recently of xAI. Welcome.Ethan [00:00:10]: Thank you. Glad being here.Swyx [00:00:11]: We're also here with Vibhu. you were first coming to us or joining the latent space world because you were working on Kosmos at NVIDIA, and you did a paper. We loved it. you presented it as well, so thank you for doing that.Ethan [00:00:23]: I've actually, I also presented the MoEs twice at latent space.Swyx [00:00:29]: How did you actually hear about us? Did we reach out to you? Is that how it worked?Ethan [00:00:33]: No, actually, I-- the community. Like I realized, oh, there is this online community that people talk about AI and also learn from each other through papers every week through the Paperclip. It's very nice.Ethan [00:00:49]: I learned a lot.Swyx [00:00:49]: I think three years stop. We haven't stopped even on Christmas and New Years. many weeks I want to stop but it keeps going.Vibhu [00:00:58]: No, that was good. I think you had posted that you worked on a paper, and I was “Oh, very cool. We have Paperclip. Present then.”Vibhu [00:01:04]: But I might have reached out to you after.Swyx [00:01:05]: you-- because it's an amateur club, right?Swyx [00:01:08]: so it's very unusual and but we have sometimes paper authors come by and actually explain the paper. Today we just did, the poolside paper, which was apparently very good.Vibhu [00:01:18]: Came out yesterday.Vibhu [00:01:19]: pretty interesting, right? Fully open. They talk about everything, systems. So it's a good one. We'll, we'll recommend people to read it.Swyx [00:01:25]: Bring us up to speed on your transition to xAI, ‘cause I actually don't even know when you joined. just like tell the, tell the story about the sort of transition.From NVIDIA Cosmos to xAI: Scaling Video and World ModelsEthan [00:01:34]: Before xAI, I was working on Kosmos world model as in-- at NVIDIA. So Kosmos is, it's a giant video foundation models that can-- that aims to simulate the world and for-- it serves as a foundation of-- for all of the roboticists to build on top of. There, once I built the Kosmos one, I realized as this thing also has a scaling law similar to language model, we need to scale up the video models further. that's, that's why I realized I need to move to somewhere with much more compute resources. That's how ISwyx [00:02:13]: Than NVIDIA?Vibhu [00:02:14]: The GPU rich came themselves.Vibhu [00:02:19]: And timeline-wise, when was Kosmo? It was pretty early, right? It was open world model, open paper, everything.Ethan [00:02:25]: It was end of twenty-four.Vibhu [00:02:28]: End of twenty-four.Ethan [00:02:30]: Then at mid twenty-five, I moved to xAI. At that time-- I joined about the time when xAI was about to build video models and in multi-model models. There were no infra, no data, and no model, and it just-- as a few engineers, we built it in three months and released the first model, Grok Imagine zero point nine.Ethan [00:02:55]: And since then, I keep working on video models and move more from training and to post-training of the video models. For example, like a reference to videos, kind of like the cameo feature and, video extensions. And, before I left, I worked on a world model, leading a small team to focus on the real-time long horizon video generation.Building Grok Imagine From Scratch in Three MonthsSwyx [00:03:24]: Can you give like a rough roadmap of okay, you're on a brand-new team. Grok previously was only text, or they partnered with BFL for their image gen stuff. What do you-- what are the building blocks, right? You have compute, data you can procure somewhere. Like just what are like the sequence of things that people should think about when you're setting up a new team?Vibhu [00:03:43]: actually even deeper, not just data you can procure. You guys had to go through getting the data too, right? So you shipped it pretty fast, but yeahSwyx [00:03:51]: three months is likeVibhu [00:03:52]: From everythingSwyx [00:03:52]: actually like very surprisingly fast.Ethan [00:03:55]: One thing I say like thanks to my experience at NVIDIA, ‘cause first time when we were building Kosmos together, we built it, for about a year. So this is like the second time I do it. Roughly have an idea, what to do. I say the most important thing is the talent. Everyone were very strong and clever, very close with each other towards a common goal. So that speed up things a lot. So you reduce the communication bandwidth among people, and everyone can work towards the same goal. It's, it's like every day there's not that much meetings on the calendar, like maybe like a, like a sync a day, and after that it's, it's just all building. It was pretty fun at that time.Ethan [00:04:47]: And another thing is that xAI has very strong foundations of like data inference, model inference, and the supporting there can help the model develop a lot. When I look at, training models, I don't so actually the top important thing is like how many, how many iterations can you do, per day? and the more iteration can you do, you can, you can train the model much faster. So if you have very strong infra and you have a lot of compute, you can, you can train these models in very short period of time. That can give you a much larger buffer to, for errors, and it also gives you the opportunity to spot more bugs.Iteration Speed, Compute, and Debugging Model PipelinesSwyx [00:05:46]: What is an iteration? Is it like a few hundred steps or what are youEthan [00:05:50]: Let's say just the train-training the model, like from acquire new data and maybe design new algorithms and train a new model, maybe at smaller scale orSwyx [00:06:01]: So cycle time for like any hyperparam that you're searching.Ethan [00:06:04]: Cycle time and tune to like eval this model. Is this model better than my previous iteration?Ethan [00:06:11]: SoSwyx [00:06:11]: So it's like before you, someone had already set this up that you can iterate very quickly.Ethan [00:06:15]: I think the foundation there is extremely good forDeveloping and research models.Ethan [00:06:23]: And often I find is it-- this is kind of boring, but like a lot of the improvements does not come from new algorithms. It comes from finding small bugs here and there in the data pipeline, in the, in the model training pipeline. Those give, those give the biggest boost to the model quality.Vibhu [00:06:46]: It's interesting, right? So you say it's like small team, less communication bandwidth, but also a lot of quality is like find little bugs. It seems counterintuitive, right? You have a lot of people, you can iron out more of those, but it's interesting to see the other side, right?Swyx [00:07:00]: I also wonder, have you-- do you try using LLMs to look for bugs? I don't know.Ethan [00:07:05]: I remember at that time it was mid two thousand and twenty-five, so it's the coding model wasn't quite there yet. I remem- I remember like December two thousand and twenty-five, it was extremely good. Yeah, I've been, I've been using it at that time. It's, it's helpful. sometimes it produce codes that are kind of difficult to maintain, even though like the first time it built something extremely fast. But it gave the, like a spaghetti code, thousands of lines that I couldn't maintain, and the LLM itself couldn't figure out what's, what's wrong and how to improve on top of it. But now I find it much better. Yeah, I want to bring up another point here is now coding models are much more efficient and can help us implement stuff much faster. Compute might become a bottleneck again because previously, like if you want to train a new model, say you want to generate new synthetic data and then or write a new algorithm, it might take a few weeks. And during that period of time, you don't-- you might not have experiments to run. But now you can build that thing within a few hours, then you can immediately train a model.Ethan [00:08:24]: Now you have to have enough compute to try all of the ideas. So compute might be the bottleneck of iterating speed again.Swyx [00:08:36]: yeah, I actually, honestly, I think it's like kind of a stressful job because you're “Well, I should be trying everything, and if I'm not, then I'm not doing my job well.”Vibhu [00:08:48]: there's also the stress of you're eating thousands of GPUs per hour, which is very expensive and, compute can go to other researchers.Swyx [00:08:56]: You got the daddy Elon toVibhu [00:08:57]: You got daddy Elon.Ethan [00:08:59]: It wasVibhu [00:09:00]: But there's still finite amount of compute, like you want to use it, you want to use it well, you want more of it.Ethan [00:09:06]: That was quite stressful indeed. Yeah, I think one thing is the-- with coding models now, like a lot of these jobs can be automated, which is much better. A second, it's a, it's a marathon, so you got to maintain good health and, a regular schedule.Vibhu [00:09:28]: It's, it's hard to hear that when you shift from zero to nothing in two months.Swyx [00:09:32]: and, I think obviously the culture at xAI is very famously, people work very hard. one thing I did want to dive into, in our-- in the notes that you, that you sent ahead of time, you had specific comments about the cost of Video Gen training. presumably this is on the Colossus-1, right? the two hundred megawatt cluster. Any whatever you want to just share on that.Vibhu [00:09:54]: I think there's, there's three things we're talking about, right? So there's Video Gen, there's also the Image Gen model that you put out. Do you want to like complete the, okay, so zero to one, you have a few months. Just what are the stages of create Image Gen model?Swyx [00:10:06]: Oh, yeah, maybe I got distracted.How Image and Video Models Are Trained: Synthetic Captions, Tokenizers, and VAEsVibhu [00:10:07]: Sorry. and then, from there's Video Gen, there's Audio Gen. Would love to get into those next. But what is that first few months like? So small team, a lot of bugs, iterations, but what does it look like? Do we take something off the shelf? Do we just get data compute? What's, what's the few months like? How do you go to state-art Image Gen model? How do you just start?Ethan [00:10:28]: I cannot comment specifically how xAI did, but it's, it's a quite standard process. I can draw some, examples from Cosmos. So mainly it's building a video model, you actually need to build a image model first. And building these two models, the data you need is a hundred percent synthetic pair of language and image or language to video. Because on the, on the internet, actually, the videos don't naturally associate with text. So you can say, oh, like on YouTube, you have the title and you have the description and the commentsSwyx [00:11:11]: TitleEthan [00:11:11]: of a video, but usually they're not relevant to the video itself. And say maybe like the video is a natural scene of mountains or something, and the title is, I'm so happy today.Ethan [00:11:26]: So they have they have no correlation at all. So the first step is to, you have to generate synthetic pair of language with the videos. So you gather videos from the internet, and you use a VLM to caption the videos. So that part, here's a question, like how do you, how do you gather VLM to begin with? So if there's noSwyx [00:11:55]: You, so you fuse the model, right? LikeEthan [00:11:57]: Say if there's no like VLM exists, like how do you generate the text to the beginning, right? It's, it's impossible.Swyx [00:12:04]: I see.Ethan [00:12:05]: In the beginning, it's like you ask human to describe the video as detailed as possible.For example, you ask them to describe everything, like all objects, all characters, and all interaction and dialogues in the, in the videos. So that's in the protocol of Cosmos labeling. We require the objective we give to the labelers was that you have to describe the video as detailed as possible, such that a blind person hears a blob of text can reconstruct what the video is like from their head.Swyx [00:12:43]: Video or image? You're talking about images.Ethan [00:12:44]: Video or image, either one of them.Vibhu [00:12:47]: This was pretty common when we went from clip and DALL-E, right?Vibhu [00:12:51]: It's all training on really detailed captioning of images. So same is applied to video, but insteadEthan [00:12:57]: same appliedVibhu [00:12:57]: of using multimodal model to pass in video images and write rich descriptions, you can alsoSwyx [00:13:04]: I think there's this traditional perspective of supervised, or, very highly human curated thing. I feel like there's a unlock with unsupervised, right? Where like you have enough to bootstrap that you can just throw common corpus on it or, whatever. like unsupervised vision and language pairing, right? Like where you just have, interspersed image and text and it just learns. To me, that is the VLM breakthrough that is different from the clip, different from the LM era.Ethan [00:13:36]: It's interesting to see that you kind of need both data.Ethan [00:13:41]: For example, for theSwyx [00:13:41]: You need it to bootstrap it up. YeahEthan [00:13:43]: for the generative model training, there's also usually like a small percentage of unlabeled data. So the model is instructed to generate a video without any text instruction. That can also help the model generalize. So after this stage of generative synthetic pair, so, one important common step is to train a compressor or a tokenizer of the image or videos. So because, if you train-- If you can technically, theoretically train image or video models on pure pixels, but the problem is that the, it's, it's a lot of tokens. So like one image, it's, a thousand by a thousand, it's like one million tokens, one million pixels. It's impossible to train transformer on that. So it's, you need to train a tokenizer, which can go from image to latent space and latent space back to image.Swyx [00:14:45]: That's why we named the podcast.Swyx [00:14:48]: But, basically, you're talking about vocabulary science.Ethan [00:14:50]: so vocab.Swyx [00:14:51]: And so, what is, what is imp-- like a million is impossible?Ethan [00:14:54]: In generative models, the vocab is continuous. It's a continuous space. We can think about like you map an image to a vector. It's a, it's a fixed length vector. It's sixteen or forty-eight, something like that. And then you map that vector back to the image space. And the mapping is, has-- The mapping is patch-based. So you say you haveEthan [00:15:22]: a sixteen by sixteen patch and you match, you map that patch of pixels into this latent space.Swyx [00:15:29]: We've covered thisVibhu [00:15:30]: This is like the vision transformersSwyx [00:15:32]: VAEs,Ethan [00:15:33]: VAEs.Vibhu [00:15:34]: You basically compress your input, you do your generation, you're reasoning all that generation in smaller dimension, and then you project back out.Swyx [00:15:43]: VAE is a form compression, but I think the for me, the patching thing is from VIT, right?Ethan [00:15:48]: You can make those.Swyx [00:15:49]: Literally the, yeah, the paper is titled like sixteen by sixteen is all you need. something like that. and then I think also, people make a lot of comparisons with this kind of patching with convolutions.Swyx [00:16:02]: Which is you're, you're kind of re- reconstructing the old paradigm with the new.Ethan [00:16:05]: Actually, in VAEs, there are, there are both convolution networks and transformers. You can actually do both.Ethan [00:16:14]: After this VAE, so what you've got is you've got latent space tokens and you've got the language tokens. So now the training of the diffusion transformer, usually generative models use diffusion transformers. It is actually quite standard. It's, it's very similar to how you train a language transformer models. It's not that much difference. It's just the tokens, the visual tokens in, visual tokens out. The only difference is there's a denoising process. So you train the model to unmask some of the noise. So you add, you add random noise to the visual tokens, and then you train the model to remove those noise to generate the clean tokens. Any inference, the model can iteratively remove noise from a hundred percent noise.Swyx [00:17:12]: And then there's also, to speed things along on the tech tree of diffusion, there's CFG, and then there's, there's also, latent diffusion that, there's, there's someone in there. I think, somewhere along the line, obviously, like stability and all these other guys, pioneered a lot of this, architecture. I don't know if you want to get into that or just, or do the video side up to you.Bootstrapping Video from Image Models and Temporal CompressionEthan [00:17:37]: After you train such model, such image model, the reason it's a, it's a foundation for video models is that image models are cheaper to train, and they have much denser connection between language and text. So, sorry, language and images. For example, you train a billion, you train on a billion images, and there's a mapping from the text to the image. And the cost to train the same, like the, a billion, a billion text to a billion videos, that's much more expensive because videosNaturally have more tokens than images. Because the diffusion models, their understanding of, language purely come from this mapping. So if you don't have enough mapping, so if you only train on like a ten million videos or something, there-- you might not see enough language tokens in your training, so your model does not understand human intention enough. So that's why you really-- you train-- you first train this image diffusion models, and then you bootstrap the video model from there.Swyx [00:18:53]: One thing I did want to ask, because I-- actually, I think you're, you're the first per-- video model person I've ever talked to, I think. we've, we've like talked to Luma and all those folks. There's all these tricks in video compression where basically frame by frame there's not that much difference, so actually you don't have to regenerate or save the whole frame, right? but I think MP4 compression or something else like that.Swyx [00:19:16]: is it tempting to use that? Or as far as I can tell, everyone just treats it as, “No, we would just generate every frame.” Is that roughly the state-art?Ethan [00:19:27]: There are a few different approaches. Let's say first, like you want to just directly use MP4 compression and use that as the tokens for the transformers to train, right? So people actually have tried that, but the main challenge is the latent space for the MP4 tokens were not, were not very comprehensible for the models. It's, it's extremely hard to train on that. And there's aEthan [00:20:01]: So that's why they created VAEs, which creates more continuous, latent space, so the models can understand that latent space and learn from it much easier. Even within the VAEs, there are different difficulties of the latent space. So you can imagine something the simplest, the most naive VAE is like you have an image, and you just shuffle all of the images into a, into a vector. So you don't need to train any VAEs, right? But that latent space is extremely hard for models to train on top of. That's why there are some debate on like how do you compress the tokens. So you mentioned like you can compress frame by frame. Also, you can compress, the temporal dimension.Ethan [00:20:52]: The difference is if you compress the temporal dimension, you get a much higher compression rate. Because there's temporal redundancy between frames, because, this frame and the last frame, likely they are mostly similar, so there's only some small difference. for example, I think in 12.1 VAE, they have like a eight by eight by four compression rate. So the four temporal tokens are compressed into one tokens. That can save a lot of, save a lot of the context length. If you do it frame by frame, you have to do maybe like eight by eight by one. Your context length will be four times larger. That being said, the benefit of the frame-- per frame compression, we might come back to this later, is, real-timeness and interactivity. ‘Cause if you, if you strain the output of the model, frame by frame, you can-- the model can respond to any user request immediately. So if you have like a temporal four compression, four times compression, thenSwyx [00:22:06]: It might be laggyEthan [00:22:07]: there's a lag there in nature.Swyx [00:22:10]: So you're very pilled on this. let's just go ahead and bring it up ‘cause we have the visual prepared anyway. There's some frontier applications of real-time video gen. So Flipbook is one of the examples that went viral recently, right? What is Flipbook?Real-Time Generative UI: Flipbook, Neural OS, and Diffusion Front EndsEthan [00:22:23]: Flipbook is kind of like a web brow- web browser. You can see like it has the web bro- browser UI on top. The difference is all of the UIs are generated by generative image model in real time, and anything here are fake. But you can, you can explore inside this wor- this imaginary world. Say like we-- here we have engineering the Great Pyramid. Like the model generates this for us to understand how it works, and if we want to navigate around and understand further, we can click on some of the, some of the description here, and the model will generate a new page, new subpage describing the details we want to know about.Swyx [00:23:14]: So it's basically kind of we're playing a video, but it's pausing for our next interaction, and then it just plays the next thing based on our interaction.Swyx [00:23:23]: Which is kind of cool.Vibhu [00:23:25]: and you kind of decide your story. So this was, how do you make a pyramid? levering technique seemed interesting, right? It shows how do you take Okay, I want to know what is thisSwyx [00:23:35]: The demo, the demo tweet had more animation between frames.Vibhu [00:23:38]: I think it's just skipping,Swyx [00:23:39]: Oh, it's just skipping a lot of frames.Ethan [00:23:40]: they also have a video modeVibhu [00:23:42]: It takes a lot. There's a lot of peopleEthan [00:23:42]: but, a lot of people are using it.Ethan [00:23:45]: So it's not available.Vibhu [00:23:46]: There's a live video stream. We can try,Swyx [00:23:50]: So this is an example of the kind of future that you see at the extreme. We don't-- we're obviously not in it today.Swyx [00:23:56]: But in a world where inference is completely free this is better than generating code and text?Ethan [00:24:02]: So this is, this is a final state of where Viva will be at for word model, I think. Imagine internet doesn't exist, and then you type in google.com. Like what should, what should, what should a model show you?the model can imagine something, and this is what the model imagine. And these web pages, they completely do not exist. So I think as the inference costs come down, we are going to have generative UI for everything. If you think about how the coding model works, so they write code for a web page, and they render the code might be con- converted into binary, and the binary render the pixels on the screen. So we in machine learning, every time we have some breakthrough, obviously it's, it's more intuit. So why don't we have like user instruction to the pixel directly? So the generative UI will be user intention to the pixels directly. And say like even if I want email, let's say everyone have the same interface, but I want, I want it slightly different. I want the email to show to me like a TikTok, so I can swipe left and right for the emails. And or maybe you want something else. We can have completely different things. Or like I have I'm looking at, Instagram stories, and I don't like the Like button. I always may click it. And, generative UI resolved it. So it's going to be a revolutionary replacement of the interface. So in the future, we might have much more powerfulEthan [00:25:50]: LLMs and coding models running behind the scene. And in the, in the front-end, the diffusion model will actually be the front-end to show stuff to you. That's how I imagine it.Swyx [00:26:02]: Diffusion front-end, deterministic back-end.Swyx [00:26:04]: Something like that. I find that very expensive, but,Vibhu [00:26:08]: I find it interesting you called LLMs writing code on the back end deterministic, but okay.Swyx [00:26:14]: you write it onceVibhu [00:26:15]: Compare it toSwyx [00:26:16]: And then you execute.Ethan [00:26:17]: If you think about the cost, say, let's say H100 costs $1 per hour, and if you use this eight hours a day and thirty days, so, every month you're paying this two forty, you'll actually not wanna pay for that. That's even more expensive than Cloud Code Max. But if you think about the compute costs come down like two times every year, and I think the future will likely arrive like within few years.Vibhu [00:26:49]: It's everything, right? compute cost comes down, compute gets faster, model gets smarterEthan [00:26:54]: More efficientVibhu [00:26:54]: model gets smaller.Swyx [00:26:55]: I don't know why you say two times, ‘cause I think it's like 100 times. In language models, it is roughly one hundred to a thousand times every twelve to eighteen months, for the same given level of LMSys, ELO.Vibhu [00:27:08]: That's a net of everything, right? That's model performance alongside compute. So different than just compute costs come down. But, a very interesting future.Swyx [00:27:19]: So the web designers will have to shout out that accessibility is an issue, right? how do you deal with screen readers or whatever. But yes, this is higher bandwidth storytelling than anything you can possibly generate with code, right? So I think that's the rough idea.Ethan [00:27:34]: And I'd like to add a little bit that so human naturally have the maximum bandwidth when we are looking at things, look at videos, and we also have maximum output bandwidth when we are talking. So in the future, it might be something like we talk to AI models, and the AI model responds back with a generative UI. So that would be the maximum input and output bandwidth to interact with AI models before neural link happens.Vibhu [00:28:06]: And it's also very custom, right? Some people are very visual, some people are not as visual, right? They prefer the text. But the best thing about generative UI, right, it can also be text.Swyx [00:28:17]: There's another project that we wanted to highlight, which is the Neural OS. Kinda similar idea, but here you're literally operating, simulating an operating system with a video model.Swyx [00:28:27]: and you can play Doom, you can do Firefox. I find this like mildly less impressive, obviously, because it's an OS that I can run.Swyx [00:28:37]: But here everything is imagined.Vibhu [00:28:40]: I was, used to the Command+W to close the Firefox tab. It didn't crash. That's why I saidSwyx [00:28:45]: It's too immersive.Vibhu [00:28:46]: It's, it's too immersive for me.Swyx [00:28:47]: Too immersive.Vibhu [00:28:48]: I wanted to close the tab.Vibhu [00:28:49]: But yes, I can play generated diffusion.Swyx [00:28:51]: this is shockingly fast.Swyx [00:28:54]: Because I remember there was a demo about like maybe one to two years ago. Someone tried to do the first-person shooter with a image model. There was no consistency. It was very slow. But here it looks like realistically it's-- this is Doom.Vibhu [00:29:07]: I think there's two sides to that, right? There's okay, what is running a game? The heavy part of it is actually the game engine, all the lighting, all that stuff, the graphics. This is just kind of video, right? Like we've solved consistency. This is still, it looks like a few years old image generation. There's some temporal consistency, but it's, it's kind of just images stitched together as frame video. But it's a good visual representation to pi- to picture the future you wanna see, right? that's, that's what I see in these more so.Ethan [00:29:38]: This reminds me of how the video models gets better and better. So Neural OS is kinda if you just look at it feels like it's just a crappy version of the, like the Windows we could have, right? And, but the difference is, so the model, this model is overfitted on the existing operating systems. It can generate nothing different than that. But it's actually also similar to video models. So when we are training these video model, image model, we train them on internet. There's no imaginary supernatural stuff on the internet. But once we train this model, you can prompt the model to generate something supernatural that have never existed in the data set. So if you train your Neural OS or neural computer on the standard screen recordings on the entire internet. The model can imagine completely new interface to interact with the computer.Swyx [00:30:43]: This is one of those things that is magical to me. usually generalizing out of distribution is bad, but somehow we have learned some kind of internal world model that you say, this plus, but it looks like rainbows and butterflies, it'll do it and it will kind of make sense.Swyx [00:31:03]: So yeah, that's kind of cool. Yeah, I don't know if there's any comment more on there. I do, I do wanted to, I did wanted to touch a little bit more on the model architecture stuff, which I think you were getting. It's, really fascinating. We don't get a chance to talk about this enough. So one of the papers that we covered, we've covered every annual, segment anything release. and I don't know if you follow-- you're a computer vision guy, so youEthan [00:31:26]: I knowSwyx [00:31:27]: . So they did memory attention, which is kind of interesting. And I always think, anything where you can, across the temporal dimension, keep some consistency, I think it's, very fascinating, and I don't know if Basically, does that-- the CV side bleeding into video gen side, I think is underexplored, right? we talk about it for labeling, but actually you can borrow the architecture itself.Ethan [00:31:50]: There's, there's also complete different approaches, right? you brought up the term world model, so we went from video model to world model. There is diffusion, but there's also other approaches that people are doing. So maybe we get into those after as well,?Swyx [00:32:03]: He has a whole definition of world models and stuff. I feel like we threw a lot at you. Whatever you want to comment on.Why Video Models Are Expensive: Storage, I/O, and Training ScaleEthan [00:32:10]: I think one thing that we should actually comment back on is okay, so we were talking about the steps to train image gen to video model. One thing we don't see as much of is okay, you brought up the delta in training data, right? SoEthan [00:32:24]: you won't have as much a video model might not generalize, but what is the cost of training a large video model? So we know for LLMs roughly, okay, even like the poolside thing that came out today, right? It's a Gemma level model trained on roughly forty trillion tokens at this many H200s over this much time, right? You can see what is the exact cost of that. So how many GPU hours over how much H200 costs? So how do we do the back-end math of, same thing for video models, image models. How do you, how do you kind of break that down? I can share some back-envelope calculation. So surprisingly, video models is-- the cost is very-- is comparable to language models and obviously the largest scale is language model, maybe like a medium scale to language models. I said just storing the videos alone, it costs a lot. You can, you can maybe look up on AWS or something.Ethan [00:33:20]: You really, say if you have a billion videos and let's say, let's just say like each video, like five megabyte, then you need five petabyte to just store those videos. And also remember we talk about you use a VAE to compress the videos, and you also need to store, typically you need to store those continuous feature, in-- also in your storage. That's also comparable size with the videos themselves. So just storing these videos and the features is tens of petabytes alone. And,Swyx [00:33:58]: I just, I just looked up the calculation. Five petabytes on S3 Standard is one hundred K per month.Ethan [00:34:05]: AndSwyx [00:34:05]: It's comparableEthan [00:34:05]: and you needSwyx [00:34:06]: AndEthan [00:34:06]: And then like tens of petabytes, two hundred K. And even more expensive is you have the ingress and egress.Swyx [00:34:13]: Oh, yeah.Ethan [00:34:14]: Like you-- through the internet. You have to just to download those videos, I believe it's, it's more expensive on AWS than just storing those videos.Swyx [00:34:25]: Storing, yeah.Ethan [00:34:25]: And each training runs, you probably need to pull them once. If you train multiple times, it's, it's even more than that. So it's like just storing the network, those costs is just, it would be a few, a few millions per month to just storing everything, not to mention the GPU cost.Ethan [00:34:45]: AndSwyx [00:34:45]: my side tangent, the compute rental, like GPU rental is very efficient. There's one side, okay, you can be XAI and build your data center. Should we not just build our, storage compute as well? LikeEthan [00:34:57]: Of courseSwyx [00:34:57]: cloud cost compared to just,Ethan [00:34:59]: You save so muchSwyx [00:35:00]: store. Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:35:01]: Especially with like egress and stuff. So.Ethan [00:35:04]: That's a good idea, but it also comes to-- there are some of its own challenges.Swyx [00:35:09]: Of course, of course.Ethan [00:35:10]: like people who build the GPU data centers, they might not expect this much, storage. And yeah, people build storage, typically they just build it somewhere with just CPUs.Swyx [00:35:23]: I just looked it up. Five-- AWS only charges for egress, not ingress. Tier five for five petabytes is two hundred and thirty K.Ethan [00:35:32]: Even more expensive than the storage.Swyx [00:35:34]: But storing is per month, right? You check in, then you cannot check out. so it's so cool. It's okay. So there's that side.Ethan [00:35:41]: So the TLDR, my backhand mathSwyx [00:35:42]: Data is larger than you think. Yes.Ethan [00:35:44]: my backhand math of GPU hours times GPU cost is also very much, I'm missing some storage.Swyx [00:35:49]: You're also-- you're basically like also more IO bound than normal training.Swyx [00:35:55]: Yes. ‘Cause like data loading, so caching everything, it becomes super important.Ethan [00:36:00]: So in Cosmos, we did a lot of optimizations to make it not IO bound. So, speaking of the training, actually training the model, the GPU cost, if you look up like the open source model, how big these video models are, I think like LTX has nineteen B parameters. That's a dense model. And people are also exploring, MoEs, so it might be twenty B active and, like a hun- hundreds B, total. So that's, that's even-- that's similar size as medium-sized LLM models. And if you, if you look at number of tokens-Uh, we disclose that in Cosmos. It's also like tens of trillions of tokens on the visual tokens. So putting this together, the cost of, training these video models, it's actually comparable with LLMs. Not to mention, the infra is slightly different from LLM, so it might be less efficient to train these models.Inference Speedups: Step Distillation, Consistency Models, and GANsSwyx [00:37:04]: Do you get the benefits of traditional diffusion speed-up? So for, images, there's LCM, LoRAs for, fine-tuning. There's, there's a lot of stuff that's beenEthan [00:37:15]: Flow matching.Swyx [00:37:16]: there's flow matching. There's a lot of stuff that's been done. there's some overlap that applies to diffusion on the inference side and stuff or?Ethan [00:37:23]: so the difference-- the inference side is a completely different story.Ethan [00:37:28]: I think for the training side, it might be a little bit hard to reduce that cost. And for the inference side, the biggest gain is from the distillation of these models. You can-- It's called step distillation, slightly different from knowledge distillation in LLMs. So you-- Typically, for flow matching models, you need like 100 steps or something. Like a distortion model even need even more, like 1,000 steps to generate a good image or video. A step distillation is try to learn to generate fewer step from the model itself. It's kind of like now we-- you use the full model to generate in 100 steps, and then you take a model that only generate 10 steps and let that model to learn from the perfect one.Ethan [00:38:25]: why this workSwyx [00:38:27]: Strong to weak seemingly.Ethan [00:38:28]: It is. It's kind ofSwyx [00:38:29]: DistillationEthan [00:38:29]: kind of like strong to weak. the-- from the modeling perspective, the strong model, the teacher model is trying to model the image and videos of inter-internet, and that distribution is extremely complex. But the step distilled model is just trying to learn from the teacher. The teacher is a model, and the size is fixed, as the distribution is much simpler than the whole internet. That's the intuition I have why step distillation can work. So usually these models serve in productions, they only run in a few steps. In Cosmos, I believe we have, we have like four step and eight steps. If you do some simpler task, image-image translation, it can even run in fewer step, like one step in Cosmos Transfer.Swyx [00:39:22]: I think this is the same intuition that guides a lot of the consistency model work. I sent you a link for, SCM. I don't know if you covered that. To me, that was actually one of, the most impressive papers I've ever seen from OpenAI.Swyx [00:39:34]: That this is the unifying grand concept of consistency models. I don't know if you have any comments on this.Ethan [00:39:41]: So there are, there are a few different approaches,Swyx [00:39:46]: Oh, yeah. Here it is.Swyx [00:39:47]: Two steps versus twenty or 100 steps, whatever. It's already done.Ethan [00:39:52]: So there are, there are a few different approaches, for example, consistency model, and there are also Actually, we shouldn't forget GAN. So GAN, actually, that was, that was the OG ofSwyx [00:40:05]: OGEthan [00:40:05]: step distillation ‘cause it trained just one step to begin with. So actually, a lot of, uh-- For example, there's a distribution matching distillation which use, which uses GAN, as one of the laws for distillation. It-- GAN just tells you, “Hey, generate an image,” and thenEthan [00:40:31]: it has a discriminator to tell, is this image real or not? So the model, the model just need to learn one of the distribution, not the full distribution. Because in training, the model is asked to reconstruct the ground truth image from the internet, which is extremely hard. And in-- When you're training GAN, it's a step process. It's just a, “Hey, you generate image. Does this image look as real as the image from the internet?” Which is a much simpler task. And, yeah, combining a lot of these approaches together, people typically do that, like consistency model and distribution matching and GAN, and we can get these few step models.Audio-Video Generation and Time AlignmentSwyx [00:41:21]: Then there's one step I wanted to add, which is audio and video.Ethan [00:41:26]: So, Grok Imagine zero point nine, I believe it's, it's a first audio video transmodel deployed at a large scale. SoSwyx [00:41:39]: And that was your first model?Ethan [00:41:40]: that was, Grok Imagine's first model. It's, it's audio video, joint generation. I think the hard part is, the modality alignment, ‘cause before this transmodel, we have, we have text to video alignment. We have this, correspondence between text and video. Typically, most of the VLMs, they understand images and videos. Video's very rare, and they don't understand audio mostly. And if you look at the audio generation on the LLM side, you can talk to them perfectly fine, but if you ask them to sing a song or something, it typically is not very good. Also, they don't have, they don't have music either. The hard part is thatUh, actually audio has two component. It has like a discrete component, a continuous component. The discrete component is like the language.Ethan [00:42:44]: So when we speak, it's just, someSwyx [00:42:47]: It's an ASR issue, yeah.Ethan [00:42:49]: It's, it's text token with some characteristics, I would say.Ethan [00:42:54]: But musicSwyx [00:42:56]: I think the speech guys would disagree with this.Swyx [00:42:57]: Like disfluencies and then,Vibhu [00:43:00]: There's tones you can get angry.Ethan [00:43:01]: Well, I say largely.Ethan [00:43:03]: the mu- but the music is completely different. It's, it's very continuous, and you cannot model them like discrete tokens in language models. this is like the hard part for models is, not to mention we have to align text, video, and audio together.Ethan [00:43:26]: SoVibhu [00:43:26]: How?Ethan [00:43:28]: So significant-- some significant challenges are like-- So first, like we talk about as the VLMs, they cannot understand most of them cannot understand audio.Ethan [00:43:39]: So you have to have some way to do the synthetic data generation for audio. You have to caption the model, and that involve, that involve synthetic data and human data effort a lot. And not just surprisingly, most of the LLMs are very bad at recognizing, like the beat, tone, and the details of the of music. They can, they can give some general prediction of which song is this, but it's very hard to describe the details of the music. like we mentioned in image generation, like you have to describe image as detailed as possible so that someone blind can reconstruct that. So here is like someoneVibhu [00:44:32]: DeafEthan [00:44:32]: someone deaf can reconstruct how the music sounds like without actually listening to it. Maybe you can think of it need to have the-- or they call the script.Vibhu [00:44:49]: Subtitles, yeah.Ethan [00:44:49]: You gotta have all the details of the music, and the dialogue.Vibhu [00:44:55]: So is the challenge there typically stuff like music and audio, or is it just Like is there a baseline? Okay, there's enough data where we can understand, narration, conversation, but there's nuances in audio that's where you hit all the data issues or is it just from stage zero, you just do it all right?Ethan [00:45:15]: So one important thing is like the alignment. So the model, the model has to know like the video and audio, the, uh-- it has to have a time-based alignment, like at which time step the video and the audio token correspond to each other. But we actually don't have this kind of alignment for most of the other modalities. If you think about like text and image, text and video, they are loosely aligned. So you can, you can have a description of what's going on in the video, but you don't have to exactly, You typically don't have exact description, oh, at, time step one second like what happened?Vibhu [00:46:02]: It's veryEthan [00:46:03]: At time step two second what happenedVibhu [00:46:03]: coarse. Yeah.Swyx [00:46:05]: So what was the ideal time step? You have to oblate it, and then it's like four seconds or something.Ethan [00:46:09]: So that comes down to how you design the model to, for the model to be aware of as a time, as a time modality. So the model is like a time aware. And that's something pretty unique if you think about LLMs. So if you ask LLM to complete a task, say they, uh-- you ask them and they will say, “Oh, this task will probably take twelve hours to complete,” and they come back in one hour. Say “I've already spent two days on this and I've exhausted everything.”Ethan [00:46:47]: So the LLMs them-themselves, they don't have a sense of time there.Vibhu [00:46:53]: I actually don't think that's just them not having a sense of time. I think it's somewhat based, right?Vibhu [00:46:58]: Like you tell someone, “Okay, go work on this feature. Go implement this,” there's a general understanding you would have of how long that would take without LLMs working at LLM speed, right? So you think back like two years ago, if I tell you to like build me like a new front end for latent space, have a search bar, have all this, you'll estimate that it'll take a few days, right?Vibhu [00:47:19]: So you tell an LLM, “Go build this.” It'll take me a few days. But I think it's somewhat grounded as opposed to them not having the best-- Not saying that they have a great understanding, but I think that example is like you can see where it comes from, right? You're trained on all over the text.Swyx [00:47:35]: They're, they're trying to estimate what a human would say.Vibhu [00:47:37]: because that's what the, that's what the data kind of represents. It's not themEthan [00:47:41]: It came from the corpus on the internet. People have a estimate of how much time.Vibhu [00:47:45]: And not even just in direct like training samples, right? Just your world understanding of tokens of how long stuff takes, right? Go read a book. It'll take you a while, right?Vibhu [00:47:56]: Even if you do nothing but read a book, it takes a few days. So yeah, LLM, I read it took me a few hours.Vibhu [00:48:01]: It'll take me a few hours to go through this research. But this is a tangent.Swyx [00:48:05]: Somewhat, yeah.Swyx [00:48:06]: This is a train of thought I haven't really expressed until now is, which is basically like a full world model must also be recursive, meaning that the participant in the world model must also be aware that they have a world model. which is like this whole recursive thing down the, down the line. but yes, and that the world model can be wrong and that they need to update it and blah. Yeah. We've, argued this on the, newsletter as well, that there needs to be sort of recursive or adversarial world models.World Models: Real-Time, Long-Horizon, Interactive VideoVibhu [00:48:34]: just, to ask, how do you define world model?Swyx [00:48:38]: Oh, yeah, let's go there.Ethan [00:48:40]: SoVibhu [00:48:40]: So just for context, we talked about, video generation, and then there's a-- if you say there's a distinction between world models, what's your, what's your definition? How do you see the two?Ethan [00:48:53]: So disclaimer, I'm not going to debate, what is world model. Yeah. there are many definitions, so I'll just talk about my definition. Since I came from the multi-model, multi-model domain, so mainly talking from video. So world model is like real-time interactive long horizon videos. So there are three parts. so we-- let's talk about them one by one. So the so interaction, so we just, we just look at Facebook and neural computer. So the interaction part of it, so you, world model can allow you to interact with them through keyboard, mouse, and maybe also voice. So these all is-- all is a modality. You can, you can interact with the model, and the model should respond reasonably. Second part is real time. So once you, once, say, you move your mouse, if, say, the world model generate a game, how fast can the game respond? So if you're like professional CS: GO players- -my say, oh, you have to respond- He's beginner within sub ten milliseconds or- Yeah even less. So that's not most of the- No, sixty FPS. Let's go. Oh, three hundred FPS. Oh, five hundred FPS. Wait. okay, yeah. I didn't do the math, but yeah, okay. Uh- Yeah, three hundred FPS, that's a three millisecond. So you have to respond- Oh, s**t. Okay. YeahEthan [00:50:29]: within a millisecond. Most of the video models cannot do that. Yeah. And, but if you, say, if you have a video model that is, say, like a digital human, the response time might be more generous. Maybe typically, for real-time voice interaction, it's like two hundred millisecond. So that's, that's much more generous. But even two hundred millisecond is pretty, it is pretty tricky, ‘cause remember we mentionedEthan [00:51:01]: you have this, temporal compression coming from the VAE. So if you, if you don't compress the temporal dimension, your sequence length is going to explode. So if you want to have this real-time, real-timeness in your model, you have to do is one context problem. And the third part is long horizon, ‘cause we-- if you're not going to just play with, video games just, a few seconds, most video models only a few seconds. We're going to play with minutes, hours. The model have to be able to generate long-form content.Ethan [00:51:42]: So putting these three together, it's, real-time, long horizon interactive videos. I think the final state will be, for example, like a video, a video version of Playbook, where you can, you can interact with, a neural computer. You move your mouse, and you click on the generative interface, and it will reply to you through pixels- generating in real time. But getting there, it's, it's a very long way to get there. So one of the first step, at Grok Imagine, where I led a small world model team there, was to build video extension. So, video extension- it's the first step of interactivity. Yeah. It's, it's the first step. Yeah. So it's the first step- You have it here, video editing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is because, this unlocks long horizon videos. Typically, for most of the video generation models, you give it a prompt or an image as an initial frame. You generate video, that's it. That's just, one time, done. And some creators would try to, use the last frame as a first frame for the second video. It can-- sometimes it works, but if you do it a few times, it says the quality would decrease. And- It doesn't have that context- Yeah over the full video, so the temporal- Yeah, exactly. Yeah, ‘cause you only gave it the last frame, of course, right? Yeah. Exactly. And- it's actually a pretty fun hack. if you've seen like- Oh, no, he's saying something better. Yeah. And for example, like Vue, I remember Vue 3 has like a second context of the last video. It is slightly better than using the last frame, but it has the same problem-- similar problem that it, the quality would decrease. if you extend a few times to, one minute, the video quality would look much worse than the first video. Second, another problem is that the model doesn't have long-range knowledge of, what's happening before. Say, if they generate some dialogue, some, two people speaking, and their voice might change, over some time, especially if the second conditioning, it does not cover the previous context. So these are the core challenges. So the Grok Imagine video extension, it has historical context of all of the previous generated videos. It can, It has, it has the context of, who is speaking and what objects have appeared and everything, having that to generate the next video. So if we naively do this, you can imagine, just, put all of the previous history video tokens into the context. The context lens will easily explode. Especially for video models, that can be like a few, a few million context, I would imagine- context lens. Yes.Yeah.Swyx [00:54:58]: Let's run with that.Ethan [00:54:59]: for example, like in Cosmos, I think just five seconds of video is like a fifty K or sixty K number of tokens. So like if you do, if you do fifty second, that's a five hundred K tokens. If you do longer than that, easily explode. This long horizon, problem was the first step we're trying to solve world model. It turns out people, yeah, people love video extension. Like a lot, a lot of the creators love using video extension to create longer form videos. This is the part I liked that you have a, you have an intermediate step toward the final goal instead of just a straight shot to the final version very much.Swyx [00:55:48]: But I can see you have a strong vision of where we want to end up.Long Context, Redundancy, and Efficient Interactive VideoVibhu [00:55:51]: Does it seem like it's an efficiency issue? okay, we're at a few million tokens context,. If you draw the parallel to language models, we had very short context, two thousand, eight thousand, then, you scale it up one million, ten million. sure, there's effective context, but at the end of the day, it's just what's it worth? sure, there's a whole training data side. In video, it might be slightly easier ‘cause we have a hundred million token video, right? Just take a movie with the full context there. Like is this efficiency from an inference standpoint that like it's expensive, but we know how to solve it? Or like why is this not the approach? So like my broader point was on your second point of world models, you say it needs to be interactive and live, right? You should be able to play a game and see the interaction live. So one thing I see with research is a lot of what you actually serve is different than what you build, right? So we talked about distillation. You train big model, you distill it, you do quantization, speculative decoding. We do all this stuff to serve it efficiently. Should we not just have a solution, like a world model that can interact well, do inference optimization, serve it, distill it secondary, so make it real time after you solve it? So like a-- another parallel is say, continual learning, right? What we need is someone to solve it and show it works inefficiently. Give it a few years, people will make it efficient. Same thing with regular attention, right? It worked. Over a few years, people have different forms of attention, and we've scaled it to be efficient at log context,? So kind of two things there, right? One is it seems like it works. You've scaled it. Can we not just scale it a lot more efficiently over time? Do we need a separate approach if this works? And same thing with interaction, right? if we can get it done, like if we can solve some way that it works, we can solve making it more efficient from an inference standpoint later.Ethan [00:57:53]: that's actually a very good point. So in videos, there's actually a lot of redundancies. So we solve a lot of the pixel redundancy from VE, but there's more redundancy in long range and long horizon videos. Say, if a character appear in the first clip and then it disappeared, it only reappear at the end of the video, you probably don't need the-- the context, like in the middle of the generation. So you only need that character, where you need. So that's why, I helped build another feature. It's a reference video.Vibhu [00:58:36]: Is it here?Swyx [00:58:36]: is it the same model release or different one?Ethan [00:58:39]: It's a different one.Ethan [00:58:41]: You probably need to search onSwyx [00:58:43]: I'll find itEthan [00:58:43]: X reference to video.Ethan [00:58:46]: So reference video allow you to like upload up to seven images as condition and generate the video. Say, if like I want-- it can, it can be characters or objects or even scenes. Say like I want, I want condition on, Sean's selfie and holding a bladeSwyx [00:59:07]: We have a dogEthan [00:59:08]: or whatever.Swyx [00:59:08]: We put the dog in the thing.Ethan [00:59:09]: you can put them there and the video models will generate the video from and copies the context over. So that can solve a lot of the problems there, like the long context problem. It doesn't need to have a very long context, but it's-- I feel like it's an intermediate solution. The modelSwyx [00:59:29]: It's cheating.Ethan [00:59:30]: the model should be able to like selectively know, where should I draw the references. So say if I want to generate a movie, I generate it autoregressive, like a ten second at a time or something. And now this character appear, I can look back to where it first appear and, bring that back. Yeah, this one, I put the references. Yeah, that's, Optimus, Einstein myself, Annie.Vibhu [01:00:02]: Oddly enough, I used Grok Search to find it, and it pulled your LinkedIn post. But yeah we found it.Ethan [01:00:08]: Interesting.Vibhu [01:00:10]: ButxAI's Underrated Work, Culture, and WatermarkingSwyx [01:00:11]: this is a problem. This is not your fault, but like XAI doesn't communicate all this work that you do very well because they just have the model release and then that's it. But actually, these details are very good.Swyx [01:00:22]: As far as I understand, everything you just described is state-art, like no one else has done it.Vibhu [01:00:30]: A lot of-- yeah, I have a lot moreSwyx [01:00:32]: And then, and then you just put this blog post with the cookies. I'm this is not enough,?Swyx [01:00:37]: but I, obviously this is like the high level numbers that people want to know. But no, okay, soVibhu [01:00:42]: And I wonder, like part of that is also some labs don't share research into what happens. And ifSwyx [01:00:50]: No, but this is literally bragging about how good they are, right?Swyx [01:00:54]: Like, why would you not say that you are capable of extending with full context? this is not a secret sauce. This is like we did the work. yeah, I don't know.Ethan [01:01:02]: different labs have slightly different communication styles.Swyx [01:01:07]: Anyway, if anyone from XAI is listening we are always happy to help you tell your story. Yeah, okay, so you did references, and I think, I think kind of the point you're, you're making is it is sort of like a kludge, right? this is-- you can do seven, but what about 100?Swyx [01:01:23]: Right? Then you need a completely different thing.Ethan [01:01:26]: So I think it's-- this is, a mechanism to, select the context from the history, and you might not put the entire history into the context. for example, there's a paper called Frame Pack, which haveEthan [01:01:41]: a heuristic that the latest history, the last one second, I put the entire history, and the history before that, I would, compress it and makes the video smaller. So they follow this pattern, this build overall pattern that the maximum sequence length is fixed. So the further you are from the current frame, you have a smaller image. So this is just a heuristic. I think it can be more automatic. The model is aware like which history part of it can be select. So this part of the research is actually being actively, worked on by a lot of people. It's also quite interesting. I feel this is actually, this part of long context is a little bit ahead of the LLM part.Ethan [01:02:31]: So for example, like in LLMs, if you-- so contexts keep growing. Let's say if you call tool and the tool call history is extremely long, that's still in context, and keep growing, keep growing. Even if you switch the topic to something else, the whole context was there. There are some agentic harnesses that help you to, say, prune the tool results and, prune Like when you, when you query a file, only show like the top 200 lines or something. Those were very heuristic-driven.Swyx [01:03:08]: For listeners, we did a write-up on the cloud code, leak where there are eight different kinds of pruning, including like you prune the tool results and all that. So you can, you can read up on that kind of thing.Ethan [01:03:17]: I think, one breakthrough in continual learning might be like a way to automatically, manage its own context.Swyx [01:03:27]: These are all heuristics, and they will be replaced by machine learning.Ethan [01:03:30]: InterestinglyVibhu [01:03:32]: TheEthan [01:03:32]: the same thing is being researched in both LLMs and video models.Vibhu [01:03:36]: The interesting thing is also like in the paper you showed, it's actually happening at the model level, right? Compared to like language models, sure, we have base attention, but we'll do our own compression, we'll do our own pruning, which is separate from model error.Vibhu [01:03:49]: Eventually, it all just boils in, hopefully.Swyx [01:03:52]: I think this is a form of like attention, but like also know sort of reasoning attention. I feel like that's different than normal attention.Swyx [01:04:03]: Does that, does that make sense?Ethan [01:04:04]: It's, it's different in the sense that attention, not to mention, set sparse attention aside,

In this episode, Chris and Matt break down a wave of new laptop and PC news that's reshaping the platform landscape for the next few years. Nvidia's N1X Arm chips are finally headed to consumer Windows gaming laptops, with a next‑gen N2 platform already on the roadmap for 2027. Intel is firing back at Apple's MacBook Neo with its new Core Series 3 mobile CPUs, while Microsoft doubles down on Intel for its latest business‑focused Surface Pro 12 and Surface Laptop 8 models. We also look at Googlebook, Google's new AI‑native laptop platform that blends Android and ChromeOS with deep Gemini integration—complete with a “Magic Pointer” and prompt‑based custom widgets meant to succeed the traditional Chromebook. Then we zoom out to hardware design and reliability, from HP's EliteBoard G1a “PC inside a keyboard” to a new report claiming Windows PCs crash three times as often as Macs in the workplace. If you're trying to decide what laptop ecosystem to bet on for the next 3–5 years—Windows, Mac, or Google's new AI‑centric world—this episode is for you. Links discussed: Nvidia's Arm-based N1X gaming laptops roadmap (Tom's Hardware) Windows PCs crash three times as often as Macs, study says (Slashdot) Intel's Core Series 3 as answer to MacBook Neo (Slashdot) HP EliteBoard G1a: PC in a keyboard (The Register) Googlebook: Gemini-powered AI laptop platform (Tom's Hardware, Google blog and coverage) Microsoft launches Surface Pro 12 and Surface Laptop 8 with Intel chips (Slashdot) See you on the Digital Flip-side!!!

Oil Drops – Still highest cost for Memorial Day in years Consumer Sentiment Drops again New Fertilizer coming – Kinda Soilent Green vibe Everyone is talking about SpaceX PLUS we are now on Spotify and Amazon Music/Podcasts! Click HERE for Show Notes and Links DHUnplugged is now streaming live - with listener chat. Click on link on the right sidebar. Love the Show? Then how about a Donation? Follow John C. Dvorak on Twitter Follow Andrew Horowitz on Twitter Warm-Up - Oil Drops - Still highest cost for Memorial Day in years - Consumer Sentiment Drops again - New Fertilizer coming - Kinda Soilent Green Concept - Everyone is talking about SpaceX Markets - Nothing Really Matters - Anyone can see - New HIGHS - Governments picking the winners again - CHIPS ! - Concentration NVDA - Over the weekend, Jensen Huang said that his forecast of a $200 billion market for CPUs includes China, signalling Nvidia still sees significant long-term demand in the market amid ongoing U.S.-China technology tensions. - During an earnings call on Wednesday, Huang said Nvidia's new "Vera" central processors give it access to a new $200 billion market. - So, once again the PR machine is running overtime to make sure there is no reason for anyone to sell the stock - needed to make this clarification over the weekend - Nvidia has received licenses from the U.S. government to sell its H200 chips but has not received approval from Chinese officials who are fostering China's own chip suppliers. Consumers - Consumer sentiment has tumbled to a fresh record low in May as fears of higher prices grow due to the U.S.-Iran war and elevated oil prices, the University of Michigan's Surveys of Consumers said Friday. - The index of consumer sentiment fell to 44.8 from a preliminary reading of 48.2. It's also well below the 49.8 level seen at the end of April. Consumers Upset South Korea - Record after record... - This is an impressive chart - Two companies -Samsung and SK Hynix -----40% of the entire KOSPI index's total market capitalization. Kospi Index Who Believes this Crap? - U.S. forces have conducted “self defense” strikes in southern Iran early Tuesday, with U.S. Central Command saying that this was to “protect our troops from threats posed by Iranian forces.“ - “U.S. Central Command continues to defend our forces while using restraint during the ongoing ceasefire,” Hawkins added. - Meanwhile there was some talk over the weekend that --- 1) We are very close to a deal and it will happen soon ----2) We are in no rush for a deal ----3) How many times is this same line going to be used to try to push the price of oil down (it did move towards $90 after the weekend resumption of futures trading) - Neither side can agree on anything... Secretary of State Marco Rubio said on Friday that the United States has seen some progress towards a deal but that more work was required, while Iran's foreign ministry said the differences remained deep and significant. - Tiresome CEO of Ford - Did you know -??? - The CEO of Ford (Jim Farley) is cousin to Chris Farley Farley and Farley Crops - Farmers worldwide are under pressure due to the Iran war disrupting supplies of conventional nitrogen fertilizers, forcing them to improvise ahead of the fall planting season. - Some farmers are turning to age-old solutions like manure, while others are experimenting with newer technologies, including waste-based inputs and microbial products. -----Circular bio-economy The crisis is giving fresh momentum to products that have long struggled to gain widespread adoption, with demand for biofertilizers and biostimulants rising and companies seeing rising interest and increased sales. - Municipal wastewater and treated human urine, which contain high levels of nutrients that can be processed. ---- So, if your corn is a little extra yellow this summer - now you know... Government's Hand - Quantum computing shares popped last Thursday, as the U.S. government said it would award $2 billion in grants to nine firms operating in the space. - IBM is the biggest beneficiary of the package, with the U.S. Commerce Department agreeing to give the firm $1 billion. - Chipmaker GlobalFoundries is receiving $375 million, while other grant recipients D-Wave Quantum, Rigetti Computing and Infleqtion will be awarded $100 million. - Shares of D-Wave added 33%, Rigetti soared 30% and Infleqtion skyrocketed about 31%. - Funding will come from the 2022 Chips and Science Act. More Money Throwing - Nvidia Corp. bought $500 million worth of rights for shares in Corning Inc. as part of a partnership to expand artificial intelligence infrastructure. - Corning pledged to increase US fiber production capacity by more than 50% to supply more optical fiber for AI data centers. - The partnership includes Corning's plan to construct three new complexes in North Carolina and Texas, which is estimated to create more than 3,000 new US jobs. DEBT - Global debt hits new record, IIF (institute for International Finance) report shows - Global debt rose for a fifth consecutive quarter in Q1 2026, increasing by more than $4.4 trillion to a record high of over $350 trillion, with the increase concentrated largely in the United States and China. - Investors shows signs of shift away from Treasuries - Global debt-to-GDP ratio stable around 305% - NOTHING TO SEE HERE Global Debt More Charts AI Reality? - Starbucks retires AI tool nine months after North American deployment - Tool was part of CEO Brian Niccol's campaign to fix product shortages - AI tool miscounted items, leading to errors, Reuters has reported Starbucks cites need for consistency, supply chain improvements in ending program More AI - Elon Musk's Grok is seeing minimal adoption in US government - even though it's cheap- - Grok lags far behind OpenAI and other rivals that analysts call more capable - Data shows uptake by corporations is also weak, suggesting Grok's problems stretch beyond government - Is it possible that corps don't trust Musk after the way he heavy handled the DOGE process? - Is this going to impact SpaceX growth story? Employment and Ai - The co-founder of AI company Anthropic said on Monday that the development of artificial intelligence cannot be left solely to technology companies, urging greater oversight from religious leaders, governments and civil society. - Speaking at the presentation of Pope Leo's first encyclical, addressing the challenges posed by artificial intelligence, Chris Olah said there was "a real possibility" that AI will displace human labour "at very large scale". Scared - China is restricting overseas travel for top AI professionals in private firms, requiring them to get approval from relevant authorities before embarking on overseas travel. - The government is targeting talent within the AI sphere, including startup founders, researchers, and executives, and adding individuals to the list based on assessments of their critical importance to the country. - The restrictions risk undermining the ability of AI firms in China to recruit and retain talent, and may force engineers with global ambitions to choose between staying home or going abroad earlier in their careers. CHIPS - Micron topped a $1 trillion market value for the first time on Tuesday as shares popped 18%, driven by insatiable artificial intelligence demand for its memory chips. - The stock surge came as UBS tripled its price target on the stock from $535 to $1,625 a share, citing long-term agreement opportunities with partially fixed pricing. - “We believe the market will start to put a more ‘normal' multiple on the stock and MU will continue to re-rate higher as more details emerge about the structural changes AI has driven to the entire memory complex,” the firm wrote. SpaceX - Lots of interest on this... - Lots of clients calling on this and we are working on this for them - Here is a bit of a reality check... --- First - company still losing billions of dollars - some may look past that - - Weird inclusion period for indices and that may take stock up due to required buying ahead of the inclusion (keeping a floor on prices in the beginning) ---- SpaceX plans to allow a large portion of its shares to become eligible for resale before the usual six-month restriction period post-IPO, under a staged system conditioned to the company's performance, a company filing shows. - The approach, designed to avoid a large wave of shares hitting the market at once, would depart from the standard 180-day lock-up that has prevailed in the U.S. Most companies going public restrict early investors from selling shares to help stabilize the stock. - Valuation somewhere between $1.5T and $2T (a year ago it was like $400 million) - Valuation in December was $750 M - Rationale for the big valuation: SpaceX is leveraging its satellite network to build massive, space-based AI data centers, which take advantage of limitless solar energy and off-planet cooling Retail  - Ross Stores Inc. raised its sales and profit guidance after first-quarter results surpassed consensus estimates, aided by strong customer traffic among younger shoppers. - The company reported sales of $6.01 billion and earnings of $2.02 per share, with same-store sales growing 17% in the period, a record for Ross. - Ross now expects full-year same-store sales to grow 6% to 7%, and earnings of $7.50 to $7.74 per share, with executives citing increased customer traffic as a key driver of profit. Meanwhile - Walmart issued a worse-than-expected financial outlook amid soaring gas prices. - Finance chief John David Rainey said high tax returns may have muted some of the impact high gas prices had on shoppers in the first quarter, indicating consumer pressures could rise in the current quarter - The big-box retailer issued fiscal first-quarter results that beat Wall Street's expectations on the top line but were only in line on the bottom. - The retailer said it's expecting adjusted earnings per share to be between $2.75 and $2.85, lower than expectations of $2.91, according to LSEG. - Walmart said it anticipates net sales will rise between 3.5% and 4.5% for the year. Ferrari - Electric - Ferrari (RACE) is trading lower today after the company unveiled its first fully electric vehicle, the Ferrari Luce, marking a major strategic shift away from its traditional combustion-engine supercar identity. - The Luce is a four-door, five-seat ultra-luxury EV developed with former Apple (AAPL) design chief Jony Ive, featuring a quad-motor setup producing over 1,000 horsepower, a 0--60 mph time of roughly 2.5 seconds, and a price tag around $640,000. - Despite these headline-grabbing performance specs, investors reacted negatively because the design is seen as a sharp break from RACE's iconic styling, with many critics arguing it looks closer to a mass-market EV than a traditional Ferrari. Saying goodbye - One of America's once-dominant beer brands is being discontinued after more than 175 years. - Schlitz Premium, a beer brand that traces its roots to Milwaukee in the 1840s and was once among the largest breweries in the country, is being put "on hiatus," parent company Pabst Brewing Co. confirmed Friday after Wisconsin Brewing Company announced it would brew the brand's final batch later this month. - "Unfortunately, we have seen continued increases in our costs to store and ship certain products and have had to make the tough choice to place Schlitz Premium on hiatus," Zac Nadile, Pabst head of brand strategy, said in a statement to Milwaukee Magazine. Love the Show? Then how about a Donation? Announcing the THE CLOSEST TO THE PIN for SALESFORCE (CRM)   Winners will be getting great stuff like the new "OFFICIAL" DHUnplugged Shirt!     FED AND CRYPTO LIMERICKS   See this week's stock picks HERE Follow John C. Dvorak on Twitter Follow Andrew Horowitz on Twitter

SpaceX's IPO filing reveals xAI lost $6.4 billion in 2025 while planning a massive Grok expansion — offering the first public look at Elon Musk's AI financials and more details about his ambitions. Also, the next big thing for Nvidia will be CPUs for AI agents, $200 billion worth, CEO Jensen Huang predicts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Take the 2026 AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and AIE WF tickets!On the product side, everyone is getting Computer - Perplexity, Manus, Cursor, and so on. Meanwhile on the research side, agentic evals like TerminalBench and GDPVal are also assuming computer (Harbor). On both ends, the consolidating LLM OS stack has become a standard toolkit, and Daytona is one of a small set of AI Infra companies that are booming because of it.“The end of localhost” has been Ivan Burazin's obsession for more than a decade.Something that is all too familiar…Long before agents became the default way people talked about software development, Ivan was already chasing the idea that development should not depend on a fragile local machine. CodeAnywhere, one of the first browser-based IDEs, was an early attempt at that future: move the development environment into the cloud, make setup reproducible, and free developers from the endless “works on my machine” tax.The thesis was directionally right, but the market wasn't ready yet.However, agents changed that. They do not care about a laptop, desk setup, or favorite editor. They need a computer they can access through an API: something stateful enough to keep working, fast enough to spin up instantly, flexible enough to resize, isolated enough to be safe, and composable enough to run the messy real-world workflows that real software engineering actually requires.Daytona isn't just selling “sandboxes” in the narrow code-execution sense. It is the latest version of Ivan's original localhost thesis.In this episode, Daytona's CEO joins swyx to explain why AI agents need more than code execution boxes: they need composable computers, stateful sandboxes, instant startup, dynamic resources, and infrastructure that can survive workloads going from zero to 100,000 CPUs.We go deep on the new agent compute market: Daytona's hard pivot from human dev environments to AI sandboxes, the New Year's Eve MVP that customers begged for, why Daytona runs on bare metal with its own scheduler, how one customer runs almost 850,000 sandboxes a day, and why RL/eval workloads went from 0% to roughly 50% of usage in just months. Ivan also explains why agents need Windows and macOS machines, why CLI may matter more than MCP, why Kubernetes is painful for this workload, and why the future AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWS.We discuss:* How Daytona grew out of CodeAnywhere, Shift, and the “end of localhost” thesis* Why Daytona pivoted from human dev environments to AI sandboxes* Why agents need composable computers instead of disposable code execution boxes* The New Year's Eve MVP that customers chased API keys for* Why Daytona chose bare metal, stateful snapshots, and its own scheduler* How Daytona spins up one sandbox in ~60ms and 50,000 sandboxes in ~75 seconds* Why Daytona's biggest customer runs ~850,000 sandboxes a day* How RL/eval workloads create zero-to-100,000 CPU spikes* Why RL workloads went from 0% to roughly 50% of Daytona usage* Why customers compare Daytona against EKS/GKS and say they're “never going back”* Why every AI agent may need a computer, including Windows and macOS environments* The Apple licensing constraints that make macOS sandboxes hard* Why CLI gives agents more power than MCP* How open source helps agents integrate Daytona* Why agent-generated PRs may break today's CI/CD assumptions* Why AI SaaS companies reselling tokens may face a cold shower* Why the AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWSIvan Burazin* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanburazin* X: https://x.com/ivanburazinDaytona* Website: https://www.daytona.io* X: https://x.com/daytonaioTimestamps* 00:00:00 Hook* 00:01:12 Introduction* 00:03:15 CodeAnywhere, Shift, and the end of localhost* 00:05:58 What Daytona is: composable computers for AI agents* 00:08:07 The pivot from dev environments to AI sandboxes* 00:10:17 The New Year's Eve MVP and customers begging for API keys* 00:12:56 Bare metal, stateful sandboxes, and Daytona's scheduler* 00:17:28 60ms startup, 50,000 sandboxes, and 850K daily runs* 00:21:53 Spiky RL/eval workloads and the new agent infra problem* 00:28:12 RL workloads, Kubernetes pain, and dynamic resizing* 00:33:31 Why every AI agent needs a computer* 00:38:48 macOS sandboxes and Apple's licensing problem* 00:44:28 Why CLI may matter more than MCP* 00:48:11 Open source, GitHub stars, and agent integration* 00:53:11 Git, CI/CD, and agent collaboration bottlenecks* 00:58:15 Founder life and building a 25-person infra company* 01:02:44 AI SaaS, token resale, and API-first business models* 01:06:10 GPU sandboxes, data centers, and compute growth* 01:09:48 Why the AI cloud may look more like Stripe than AWS* 01:11:26 Closing thoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Daytona, CodeAnywhere, and the End of LocalhostSwyx [00:00:02]: Okay, we're in the studio with Ivan Burazin, CEO of Daytona. Welcome.Ivan [00:00:07]: Thanks for having me, man.Swyx [00:00:08]: Ivan, you and I go back.Ivan [00:00:10]: Way back.Swyx [00:00:11]: How I don't even know how, you found, did you reach out or, for Shift.Ivan [00:00:17]: I reached out to you. The reason was you - we were just - we were thinking about I was one of the co-founders of CodeAnywhere, the first browser-based IDE, and so we were thinking a long time of, localhost should die. And you had this article.Swyx [00:00:29]: End of localhost.Ivan [00:00:30]: Then I reached out to you because of that, and then we talked, and I was actually at a different job and learning about I was the head of, developer experience, and you were quite well-versed in that, and I actually reached out to you, among other people, how do we go about that? What are the key things and whatnot at this point in time? And you were nice enough to take the call, and I remember I was late on your call with you.Swyx [00:00:51]: I don't remember.Ivan [00:00:52]: I remember because I was with my then I'm thinking of a girlfriend or wife at that point in time, I'm not sure. It's the same person, so that's great, and I was late ‘cause we were, in, Italy on, vacation, and then I was late for something. I felt so bad, and you were so nice to be, good about.Swyx [00:01:10]: The reason I'm nice is because I'm also late to other people, so it's like, who's, who's without sin here, yeah, so I have to, for those who don't know, InfoBip Shift, there's this whole thing that, you did in the past, and, and that was basically one of the inspirations for me starting AI Engineer, which is like, I have to thank you for giving me that push to be like, “Oh, you can, you can build and sell conferences?”Ivan [00:01:34]: I remember you asked you asked me at the beginning to give me advisory shares, and I was so focused on what we were doing, I said no, and I should've took the advisory shares. So I'm sorry, dude. But anyway.Swyx [00:01:43]: We're not, we're not venture backed.Ivan [00:01:44]: No, it doesn't matter.Swyx [00:01:45]: It's Yeah, anyway, so I think what's impressive about you is that CodeAnywhere is the thing that you've been trying to build, and, you kind of put it on hold and then came back after InfoBip. Just give us the story, do you - the story and the origin story, going into Daytona.From CodeAnywhere and Shift to DaytonaIvan [00:02:05]: Sure. Like, really way back, me and my co-founder have been together. I say this, I've said this multiple times, it's like we were married and divorced and married. Some people actually ask me is my co-founder my partner. they thought it literally. It's not literally, but we have done multiple companies together, and to your point, we had this shift where we went from the CodeAnywhere to the conference called Shift, and then back to, Daytona. We originally started stacking servers, doing like virtualization in the early 2000s and, routers and doing basically all these things, at a foundational level, and that was a services company which we sold to focus on what my co-founder actually invented, which was the very first browser-based IDE, right, I say the first. Before us was actually Heroku. They did it for a very short time until they became Heroku. But outside of them, we were the only one, and it was called.Swyx [00:02:55]: There was Cloud9.Ivan [00:02:57]: Cloud9 came out slightly after us. There was Replit, which came out when we stopped doing it, Replit came out, and they have been successful since then, which is great. There was Nitrous.io. There was quite a few that existed at the time, but it was like too early. But the interesting part is that we, at that point in time, because there was no VS Code, there was no Kubernetes, and Docker had just started when we Or I'm not sure if it was even public at that point in time. And so we had to build everything to the whole stack ourselves and that was the key learning that we brought into and that we've been using in Daytona today. So it was super early. There's about 3 million people used CodeAnywhere. It was slightly, it was angel-backed more than venture-backed. We ended up paying everyone back because it didn't have that sort of scale. But, three years ago, we started something similar with Daytona, which is not what we are today, but it was automating dev environments for human engineers, the basically the underlying stack of CodeAnywhere. And then we did a hard pivot last January to sandboxes. And so here we are.Swyx [00:04:01]: Historic pivot, yeah, and, it's one of those things where, I had independently invested in CodeAnywhere, but also in E2B, and then both of you pivoted into the same thing, and I'm like, “F**k.”Ivan [00:04:12]: You invested, you invested in Daytona. You invested in Daytona. But you were the first If we had not got your check, we wouldn't have done it.Swyx [00:04:18]: No way.Ivan [00:04:19]: No, it was like, “We have to get him on board first,” and you were that kicker that we, that got us off the ground.Swyx [00:04:23]: No, because you were putting me on your pitch deck, man. I was like, “Man, this is like a good trip if I don't invest.”Ivan [00:04:29]: That's because it was your quote. It's like we.Swyx [00:04:30]: Yeah. It's the end of localhost.Ivan [00:04:31]: Did a bunch of research about end of localhost and who was interested in that,.Swyx [00:04:34]: No, that's like, I put, I wrote that blog post, and every single company in that field reached out to me, and then every VC who was receiving those pitches then also had to call me and, talk it, talk through it with me.Ivan [00:04:47]: It's finally happening though.Swyx [00:04:48]: It was really super interesting.Ivan [00:04:48]: It's finally happening.Swyx [00:04:49]: It's finally happening.Ivan [00:04:49]: Yeah, it's finally.Swyx [00:04:49]: It's finally happening, with maybe sort of non-human users. Yeah, so what is Daytona today? Let's get like a quick description. I'm wearing the shirt.What Daytona Is Today: Composable Computers for AI AgentsIvan [00:04:58]: You're wearing the shirt. Yes,.Swyx [00:04:59]: It says, I think your branding is very good. Like, it's very consistent. It runs AI code. Like, it cannot be simpler.Ivan [00:05:05]: Exactly, but we're gonna probably have to change that.Swyx [00:05:07]: Oh, s**t.Ivan [00:05:07]: It's also a subset of what we do. Unfortunately, we really love this, Run AI Code is super simple. People interpret it different ways. I think we've given out 5,000, 6,000 of these shirts. People wear them with pride because it doesn't really market about us.Swyx [00:05:21]: Yeah, Daytona's on the back.Ivan [00:05:22]: It markets the back. It markets to the person itself, so I think we did a really good job on that one. But it is also a subset of what we do, because people, when they think about Run AI Code, they just think about these small, let's call it isolates, code execution boxes that, you send some code, you get an output. Whereas what Daytona is today is essentially composable computers for AI agents. It is, the market calls them sandboxes which can be misleading.Swyx [00:05:44]: All these things. All these things on.Ivan [00:05:45]: Yeah, exactly, ‘cause it can be misleading ‘cause people usually think about sandboxes as a demo or a test environment versus a production-grade environment. But what Daytona does, if you think of the laptop that you have in front of you or the computer that's over there, or, my wife is an architect, so she has like a Windows with a 3D graphics card inside to do 3D rendering. Like, as humans, we have different computers or different compositions of computers. And our belief is strongly that agents today and going forward will need all these different compositions of computers to do different types of tasks. And so we offer that basically through an API.Swyx [00:06:19]: Yeah, to give people - I'm trying to sort of front-load all the aha moments or the wow moments so that people can, stay engaged and click like and subscribe. the market is exploding, right? Like, you have been reporting 74% month-on-month growth, and it also, it's just been growing for a while. Like, it's been going like this. And every single - It's not just you guys. It's every single.Ivan [00:06:41]: Everyone, yeah.Swyx [00:06:42]: Sort of, compute provider. I don't know if you agree with me saying compute provider or not.Ivan [00:06:48]: It's fine.Swyx [00:06:48]: Yeah. So like organically PLG-driven growth, but also enterprise is doing super well, I think I wanna rewind to January of last year when you did the pivot. Like, so you obviously called this market early, and you were positioned for it, and you are now one of the market leaders. But what was the insight that made you do the pivot?The Pivot: From Human Dev Environments to Agent SandboxesIvan [00:07:06]: The insight that made us do this pivot is the quarter before that, so end of 2024, when we had - Basically, we did a demo with - I don't I think we discussed this as well, Devin was not public. You actually gave me access to Devin at that time. So Devin.Swyx [00:07:25]: I did?Ivan [00:07:26]: Yeah, you gave me access.Swyx [00:07:26]: I don't think I was supposed.Ivan [00:07:27]: Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:07:28]: Yeah, I.Ivan [00:07:28]: So it doesn't matter. You.Swyx [00:07:29]: Yeah. I gave like three friends access.Ivan [00:07:31]: Yeah, or it was a call and you showed it to me. It doesn't matter. but OpenDevin was available, which is now called OpenHands. And so we're like, “Oh, this seems to be a thing. This is not public. Let's take our for human automation of dev environments and take, OpenDevin and launch that as a SaaS.” And we did that. Not very many people signed up and used it, but a lot of people reached out that were building agents, and they were like, “Hey, my agent needs a compute sandbox runtime,” whatever you wanna call it. I forgot what it was called at that point. And then we were like, “Oh, amazing. This is a new market. Here is our infrastructure. Here's our product, and go.” And what we found really fast, soon, was that people did not like what we had built. It didn't work. And I remember talking to people at the beginning when we're doing this, the sandbox we're building for agents. People were like, “Oh, why is it different? It's the same thing. We have like EC2, we have VMs, we have all these things.” But we saw that everyone we gave it to, it was like 20, 30 people, they all said, “No.” Like, “This is not what we need. This sort of breaks.” And basically, me and my co-founder not knowing a lot about - ‘cause we're infra people. We're not AI people. So I basically took it upon myself to like watch every single podcast that exists, including all of, all of these and all that, and sort of get up to date, read all the blogs, like get, understand what's going on.Swyx [00:08:45]: Do you wanna shout out who else was useful, just in case people are also looking.Ivan [00:08:49]: Generally we -, I looked at There's a few of podcast, different segments and different types. So there's you guys, No Priors, Bill Gurley's was great while.Swyx [00:09:04]: VG2, yeah.Ivan [00:09:05]: Yeah, while it was around. So there's a few. 20VC is interesting from a different dynamic, and some are different dynamic. But there was, also Red Points.Swyx [00:09:14]: We're not really about the compute market.Ivan [00:09:15]: It was also already - Sorry?Swyx [00:09:16]: You're, you want - You're looking at the agent infra market.Ivan [00:09:19]: I was looking at the agent market and the AI market in general and sort of understanding who are the players, what the perception, and how that goes. And like obviously you complement this with like going to conferences, going to events, going to meetups, reading white papers, like doing all the things that you have to do to understand what's happening. And so when we figured, when we sort of had an idea of what we had to build, literally over the New Year's Eve, literally on New Year's Eve, I half vibe coded the first MVP, first minimal viable product of what Daytona is today. And I went to sleep at like 3:00 AM or something like that. I was doing - I just put my like baby daughter and wife to sleep and, Happy New Year's, and go back to just, doing this. And I sent it to my co-founder, my CTO, and he saw it in the morning. He's like, “This is absolute garbage.” “Do not show this to anybody at all, but the idea is good.” And so he took two weeks, and he rebuilt it.Swyx [00:10:09]: Did it like look like that? Listen, I - It was rough idea.Ivan [00:10:12]: Oh, not even, not even close. Like it was it was way worse. But it was like a very - It was a simplistic view of what it should be. Like, it worked, but it was not ideal. And so he went, we went down the whole, which is his job as CTO, to go, and he came back with this version. We then called all the people that had said like, “This is garbage,” a quarter ago. And we set up these calls, and we gave it to - We just demoed it to everyone. And all the calls went long, every single one. They were 15-minute calls, and they all went to like 25, 30 minutes or whatnot. And everyone said, “We need, we want access.” There was no login, just an API key, ‘cause it was just a beta or an alpha. And they said, “Oh, we want access.” And we're like, “Sure, yeah. Okay, thank you very much.” But after like the next day, if we'd not send it, every single one, like every call that we did, everyone came back, “Where is my API key?” Like everyone wanted it. We're like, “S**t.” Like this is it. Like I've never felt So one, the understanding to your point was like most people thought it was the same infrastructure for humans and agents. We understood a quarter ago it's not. We just didn't know what was the right primitive. And then when we came, and we can talk about what that is, and we gave it to these people, I've never seen, I've never experienced - I've done multiple companies in my life. I've never experienced this, that people literally call you if you do not give them access. Like they want access right now. And so it's like, okay, they don't want this. the thing that they want doesn't seem to exist, or they have not found it, and they really want what we want. And then when we understood that we're onto something, and then when you think about the size of the market, like the market for human engineers and enterprise is a very large market, so think GitLab or whatnot. But the market for every single agent that will exist ever in the future is just like, what is that market? How big is that? And we're like, “We are all in on this.” And so that is where we made sort of the cut between the old product and the new one.Bare Metal, Stateful Sandboxes, and the Lambda + EC2 ModelSwyx [00:12:02]: Yeah. But it wasn't composable at the time?Ivan [00:12:05]: It was very - It was basically just a Linux box that you could change, that you could define number of CPUs, disk, and RAM. Like that is what you could do, but you couldn't have multiple operating systems, you couldn't resize it on the fly, you couldn't add a GPU, you couldn't do like all the things. It was just the, just the first sort of variation of that, yeah.Swyx [00:12:22]: Was it bare metal from the start?Ivan [00:12:24]: It was bare metal from the start. And so the interesting thing that we thought about right away, so our.Swyx [00:12:29]: Which, give people the background, what is the normal path?Ivan [00:12:32]: Yeah, so, basically most providers run this on top of VMs. And also.Swyx [00:12:37]: Firecracker.Ivan [00:12:38]: Yeah, they run on Firecracker and VM. And so we also fire - We can get - We have multiple isolation layers and we can do that. But the common way to do it is that they, one, that the state of the machine, or the hard disk is not part of the sandbox itself. And the other thing is they're not meant to last forever. So most of them are preemptible, like they can There's a time that they can live. And so our thought was when we were going into this is, agents will be like humans in the sense of you don't want your laptop to be shut down until you're done with work. Like, and you want to close the lid and open the lid, it's the same state. So you - Agents would want that, like the pause and come back. They want those two things. But also agents really want speed, right? Can they get it? So when we thought about it's like we need something insanely fast, how to make it fast, how to make it long-running, and stateful. And so those two things, it's like combining a Lambda and an EC2, right? Those two things together. And so we didn't have an idea how others did it, ‘cause we didn't know too that there was a market around this. It was more like, okay, this is what we need, what they need. And we looked at Kubernetes, it wasn't wasn't good enough for that. We looked at Nomad, it didn't enable that. And so our history in rewriting our own scheduler at CodeAnywhere is basically what my CTO came up with. Like, he's like, “Oh, the learnings from there,” and he brought it. And the funny thing is, our third co-founder, when he saw it, he's like, “Dude, what is this? This is like 2008.” Like, we went back in time, and he's like, “Exactly.” And so the reason why Daytona is like super fast, and you see this on benchmarks, is we essentially, we run on bare metal. We have our own scheduler, we use the underlying, disk, CPU, and RAM of the underlying machine, which means your IOPS are insanely fast because there's no, there's no network between an EBS or something like that. But also the snapshot, the point in time, the templates, are also preloaded on the bare metal machines. So when you fire off a sandbox from a template or a snapshot, you're essentially directed to the bare metal machine where that snapshot is based on that NVMe drive, and then it literally just turns on that machine, and it's local. There's no network latency, anything on there. And so that is sort of the specificities that we, when we're thinking from first principles, what a computer would look like for an agent, that is what we came up with, and that's what we created.Benchmarks, 60ms Startup, and 50,000 SandboxesSwyx [00:15:02]: Yeah. I should maybe, I don't know if you endorse this, but there's someone that does compute SDK, you guys do very well on there, with like the TTI, right? I. is this a, is this a is this a relevant benchmark for you guys? I don't know.Ivan [00:15:16]: I don't know, and it changes every day. So today RKL is.Swyx [00:15:18]: I don't know what RKL is. Never heard of it.Ivan [00:15:20]: Yeah. RK, yeah, so it is there.Swyx [00:15:22]: You are, at least a third of the next tier of performance, and then, there's a lot of other better-known names that are very slow to start.Ivan [00:15:31]: Yeah. We've been the number one by far for a long time, and now there's different, there's different definitions also of sandboxes, different isolation patterns, different other things. So RKL runs it literally on the S3, the data, so it's very different, and they spin up a sandbox, spin up a container for that, so it's a different type of thing. So the definition of a sandbox is something that we can all, we all need to get along with. But yeah, we're insanely fast on getting these things, up and running. And so you can see even there that it's a zero point 0.10 to 0.11, so.Swyx [00:16:03]: Close enough. Yeah. what else do you need, right?Ivan [00:16:05]: Yeah. So the benchmarks itself, so, in this, in I don't think the benchmarks equate to market ownership or revenue or anything like that. and I've seen this with multiple benchmarks, not just in sandboxes, but in general benchmarks around.Swyx [00:16:20]: It's table stakes. It's just like.Ivan [00:16:21]: Exactly. But it doesn't hurt.Swyx [00:16:22]: Just roughly check.Ivan [00:16:22]: Like you definitely have to be up there and you have to be competing so that people know that, oh, this is definitely one of the top. Because this is only one dimension of what customers look for. There's other things like how many can you spin up consecutively? There's a feature set, there's support, there's like all different things that people look at, but you definitely have to be there, on the benchmarks.Swyx [00:16:40]: How many people do people spin up consecutively?Ivan [00:16:43]: So we have.Swyx [00:16:43]: Or concurrently, is the Concurrency, right?Ivan [00:16:45]: There's three metrics that we look at. And so one is like time to spin up one, and so our time to spin up one is 60 milliseconds with network latency. So request, spin up, reply, 60, the whole thing, 60 milliseconds. That is one. But if you wanna spin up 50,000 at once, we are now at about 75 seconds. So it takes about 75 seconds to spin up concurrently 50,000. Some others, there's public data around this, like take 2,000 seconds, which is 30 minutes. Like there's different variations of that. And then there is the so it is speed of one, speed of like multiple, and then how many can you consistently have up and running. And so we basically have right now no limit to how much we can add because we basically own our own metal. But the biggest customer of ours does like about 850,000 every single day is sort of where they're, where they're just shy of a million every single day that they're running, we do have a request for half a million concurrent, which is literally half a million CPUs somewhere running. So that's an interesting.Swyx [00:17:44]: They pay by like vCPU seconds.Ivan [00:17:47]: By seconds, yeah.Swyx [00:17:47]: Or whatever. Yeah. Okay, and so and then, and the other thing is, the sleeping and the resuming, ‘cause it's all the stateful resumption of all these things, how, what kind of workload are people putting through this, right? Like how is it Do we measure by gigabytes in memory, gigabytes in storage? I don't In like network attached storage. I, what are the costly ones of, out of all these features?Workload Economics: CPU, RAM, Network, and StorageIvan [00:18:15]: The most expensive thing are CPU.Swyx [00:18:18]: Okay. Yeah, of course.Ivan [00:18:18]: The second one, yeah Then it's RAM, then it's disk. We actually don't charge.Swyx [00:18:22]: Which is snapshotting, right?Ivan [00:18:23]: No, it's actually the, snapshotting's part of it, but basically the size of your hard disk, of your machine. So do you have 10 gigabytes, do you have 20, do you have 50, do you have whatever? And then the transference of that. Right now, currently we don't charge for, network at all at Polychron.Swyx [00:18:37]: Oh, you gotta, yeah, you gotta fix.Ivan [00:18:38]: Yeah. It is very much a it's a larger and larger part of our bill, so we're working around, that part there. Obviously, that is the least, expensive, so the hard disk is the least expensive, so it's basically CPU, RAM, for us network, ‘cause we don't charge the customer, and then hard disk, is how it's split up. But there's also different types of workloads, so we basically split it up into two types of workloads in Daytona. One is what we call background agents or long-running agents. and the other is, basically RLs and evals, which I put sort of together. And so they have very different patterns of usage, and if you look at the usage of a background And I'll just name names of companies, not specifically.Background Agents vs. RL/Evals: Two Usage ShapesSwyx [00:19:21]: Yeah, open, all hands.Ivan [00:19:23]: Yeah. So like a background agent's a Cognition, a Lovable, a like all these things are Harvey. These are all long-running, background agents. And so if you look at their usage patterns, their usage patterns are similar to human, which is like follow the sun. Basically, the usage patterns of that is like noon is probably the highest, and the midnight is the lowest, and then weekends are lower. weekday is higher.Swyx [00:19:42]: Yeah, that's a fun question. How global is it? Is it very US-centric or?Ivan [00:19:46]: The US is a large part, but we have currently, we have Asia, Europe, and the US regions.Swyx [00:19:52]: So it's quite global.Ivan [00:19:53]: Yeah, it's quite global. We have it all over. It's interesting that our I talked to you a bit about this. Our number one city by user.Swyx [00:20:01]: Hmm.Ivan [00:20:02]: Is Singapore.Swyx [00:20:04]: Oh, wow. Amazing.Ivan [00:20:05]: Which is an interesting one, right? Not by revenue, just by just like by individual head count.Swyx [00:20:09]: Really?Ivan [00:20:09]: Just like an interesting thing.Swyx [00:20:10]: Singapore is, Singapore is weirdly high in the adoption charts of AI for the population. It's like an, seven, eight million population. And it's like keeps showing up.Ivan [00:20:20]: No, it's quite interesting. We were quite shocked, and I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” And also one that's up there.Swyx [00:20:24]: There's a reason I'm doing AI using Singapore. it's because I'm from there.Ivan [00:20:27]: We're there. We're gonna, we're gonna be there as well. and it's interesting that Japan is in the top or like Tokyo's in the top, which is in all the tech cycles it has never been. It has never been, so it's quite interesting that they're.Swyx [00:20:39]: I think the Japanese just love AI. Yeah. It's that, and then it's Brazil. That's it.Ivan [00:20:44]: Brazil has always been in.Swyx [00:20:45]: I think.Ivan [00:20:46]: Even when I look, if you look at like GitHub's data and ask historically with CodeAnywhere, it was always like US, Western Europe, and then you'd have like India, Brazil, China, like that would be there. But like Singapore was not in, specifically Japan was never in sort of that top, that top.Swyx [00:21:01]: Yeah. Weird pockets.Ivan [00:21:01]: Weird. Yeah, so it's very global.Swyx [00:21:02]: Okay, so actually that, but that's helps you to distribute your load through, all time?Ivan [00:21:08]: The interesting thing is like we have those kind of loads, but if you look at the researcher loads, they're quite different. So what they are is like if you give them concurrency of 10,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 CPUs at ARMb, when they fire off a run, it's just 100%. And then it just runs, and then it stops. So it's very, the usage pattern is squares basically, right? And it's also not follow the sun, because people will fire it off at midnight before they go to sleep but then wake up and so it's very unpredictable, so you don't know where that is. So the shapes of the usage are quite different than we have had before. And also what's interesting is when it's sort of a follow the sun, even if you have a high growth company, you can sort of predict your usage patterns and have enough capacity for that, because it's sort of, it grows in a, in a way you can project. When you have companies doing sort of like evals and RL, they're super spiky. So they're gonna come in, it's like, “We're gonna use nothing, then can we have 100,000?” Right? And then go back down. And then 100,000, go back down. So it's very different, right? And.Swyx [00:22:09]: Do you want to lock them into commits so.Ivan [00:22:11]: Yeah, we do.Swyx [00:22:12]: Yeah, okay.Ivan [00:22:12]: We so we have to lock them into some sort of commits to have that capacity, because we have to have, basically we have to have the capacity for peak. Right? And so right now, Daytona's mean utilization is 15%, 1-5.Swyx [00:22:25]: Oh my God.Ivan [00:22:26]: So it's very low.Swyx [00:22:27]: Because it's very spiky.Ivan [00:22:27]: It's very spiky, but we get up to 90%. so we have these things. And so what we're, what we're looking at right now as a company is similar to Cloudflare where you can like geo move things around, but that works really well for basically the background agent where it's follow the sun. But this, it's not. Like it's a very different shape. Obviously with scale you figure these things out, but that's an interesting new problem that we have, as a compute provider in the agent space. And when we were doing the conference recently, and so we talked to like Nikita from Neon and.Swyx [00:22:57]: I should bring it up.Ivan [00:22:58]: Parag from Parallel and whatnot, everyone has the same problem. Whereas the usage is super spiky, and this is something that has not happened before, that you have these types of like it was always, it the amplitudes were not this high, right? So it's quite interesting use case and problem solve.Compute Conference and Spiky Agent InfrastructureSwyx [00:23:12]: Yeah, I don't know if we're gonna bring this up again, but let's just talk about the conference, you had like 1,000 something people at the Warriors game, at the Sorry, where is it? What's.Ivan [00:23:22]: Chase Center.Swyx [00:23:23]: Chase Center.Ivan [00:23:23]: Chase Center.Swyx [00:23:24]: I went. It was, it was very impressive. Obviously, you can, how to throw a conference, what did you learn? you put, you pulled together all these impressive names.Ivan [00:23:33]: What I.Swyx [00:23:34]: What were you looking for?Ivan [00:23:35]: My thesis behind the Compute Conference was let's bring together people that are building infrastructure for AI agents. Because when I think of what we're building, it is the agent is the primary user, what are the ergonomics and usage patterns of agents, and so we can do that. And what I found, this was a theory, it wasn't proven, is that we all have these problems, as I touched onto. And I was, as I was talking on stage, it was like we all have the same underlying infra problems, which is this spiky workloads, unpredictable workloads that we've never had before, in human, compute or human infrastructure. And it's, again, it's the same when I was talking to Parag or when I was talking.Swyx [00:24:20]: Lynn. Nikita.Ivan [00:24:21]: Lynn, Nikita. Lynn especially, I was talking to her the other day as well. Like the It is a very interesting type of problem to solve because I can touch on Cloudflare because there's a lot of like talk about that recently as to how they solve that, which is they have a bunch of geos, and basically, as users work in different places, and depending on your tier, they can move you around the geos. And so that how, that's how they get the higher utilization. But you can sort of predict these, and it's If it's something in You'll rarely get a spike that is 10 orders of magnitude. Like you'll get a like let's say one of your customers has some like an exponential curve. What is that to I'm using Cloudflare as an example. 10%, 20%, whatever it is. I don't, I don't have this data, I'm just assessing. It's surely not 10x, right? It's surely not something there. And so how do you go out and solve this problem? And we're all solving this in different ways. So we have.Swyx [00:25:11]: She also has the same thing.Ivan [00:25:12]: Yeah, I know specifically that like Neon had that issue as well. Like how are we solving these spiky loads and things like that ‘cause we talked about it. And so the interesting thing for me to actually internalize was, yes, everyone that's building for agents first is going through this, and we're all solving similar problems, which is quite.Swyx [00:25:28]: Let me let me double-click on this. Okay. So for example, Neon, I happen to know that they're very sort of S3 oriented, right? so they're just like fully bet on S3. And you get to benefit from S3's distribution and infrastructure. So I would imagine that Neon doesn't have to care, whereas Lynn maybe has to care a bit more because obviously she's doing GPU inference. And, for listeners, we did an episode with her, one and a half years ago. And you have to care. But like, right?Ivan [00:25:54]: Parag cares for sure, and Nikita.Swyx [00:25:58]: And Parag is C of, Parallel.Ivan [00:25:59]: Parallel, yeah.Swyx [00:26:00]: Former CTO of Twitter.Ivan [00:26:01]: Twitter, yeah.Swyx [00:26:02]: They are the search.Ivan [00:26:03]: Yeah, they're search, yeah.Swyx [00:26:03]: I You and I know but the listeners don't know.Ivan [00:26:08]: Yeah, we can put it down in the screen, and so ‘cause we, when we were talking.Swyx [00:26:11]: I'll put it up on the, on the screen.Ivan [00:26:12]: Yeah, right.Swyx [00:26:12]: People can look it up if they need.Ivan [00:26:14]: Look it up. And, yes, but they still have CPU and RAM, allocation that you have to have up and running. And so CPU and RAM, you have to allocate that and have that ready. And so there's basically two ways to do it. One is you either over-provision and you can handle the bursts, or two, you basically have, I don't know if this is a term, just-in-time compute, which is like as your load becomes, as your usage comes in, you can fire off requests for VMs or bare metals at other cloud providers and then get them up and running.Swyx [00:26:43]: This is if you go above 100%, right?Ivan [00:26:45]: Yeah, this is.Swyx [00:26:46]: Like your overflow.Ivan [00:26:46]: If your overflow, like spillage or whatever you do.Swyx [00:26:48]: You probably lose money on it, but it doesn't matter, right?Ivan [00:26:50]: It, not Well, you might, you might not That is a more cost-effective way to do it but it's a slower way to do it. Because basically what you have to do is you have to like queue your requests, spin up these just-in-time compute, get it all ready, provision it, and then get your workload there. And so if the time isn't important that much, that's fine, and you can do that. But if your customer, and especially for, let's say, the RL training runs, the reason why a lot of people come to us is because GPUs are more expensive than CPUs, right? So you want your GPU running at, what, 100% the entire time. And so when you're running runs on CPUs, when the when the CPU cycle is like down and spinning up the next one, you want that to be instantaneous so that your GPU doesn't go down, right? And if you then have to like go out and provision machines, you're essentially telling the GPU that it has to wait, and that's incurring our cost. So there's things that you have to try to solve for there.RL Workloads, Declarative Images, and Kubernetes ReplacementSwyx [00:27:43]: Yeah, let's talk about the different workload, right? You said that, what was it? A few months ago, you had zero RL workload and now it's 50%.Ivan [00:27:52]: It will be this one, 50%, yeah.Swyx [00:27:54]: Let's talk about how different it is, right? Like I imagine, for example, a lot less dynamic code generation of like arbitrary code. Like here, it's probably all the same code. You're just doing parallel runs or something, I don't know.Ivan [00:28:05]: Yeah. So you'll have multiple Depends on the like for each run, you'll have a snapshot. And they, for the most part, they actually do use our declarative image builder, which is like, “Oh, we, the agent wants these dependencies, these env vars.”Swyx [00:28:17]: These ones, yeah.Ivan [00:28:18]: Yeah, the declarative image builder, it.Swyx [00:28:20]: Which is a very modal like thing that they.Ivan [00:28:22]: Yeah. And so we build it on the fly and then we propagate that snapshot, and you can spin up as many sandboxes as you want against that snapshot. And then if you have to do changes, the model can, or like it could be also be automated. It's like, “Oh, now for the next run, we need to install these things or remove these things or whatever to get, a task done,” and then it goes off and runs that. So yes, that is something that it seems that they prefer. The number one reason I found, or should I say, let's take a step back. What we are competing against in that environment is essentially managed Kubernetes. So EKS, GKE, whatever. That is what the vast majority run on. And anyone that has tried Daytona versus GKE, EKS is like, “I'm never going back.” That has always been. There's a few reasons. One is the ergonomics. So if you have, if you're using Kubernetes to spin that up, you have to essentially manage the interface interactions with that. Daytona, although as a compute provider, it's more akin to a Twilio and Stripe from a consumption perspective than it is an AWS. Like you have an API, an SDK, it's quite like easy and seamless to get these things up and running, that's one. The other is the speed to which we spin up, which we mentioned earlier, which is much faster, and the scale to which we can go to. We haven't got into features, but an interesting feature is that it's very hard to OOM, or out of memory, our sandboxes, because we can dynamically on the fly.Swyx [00:29:48]: Resize.Ivan [00:29:49]: Resize, which is like impossible on almost any other thing. There are some technologies that enable you to do that, but it's like a very hard thing. And so we actually saw this when, the Terminal Revenge team is, brought us actually. So thank you, Alex and the team, that brought us into this whole space.Swyx [00:30:05]: It's just very rare that, a framework would just say, “Guys, just use Daytona.”Ivan [00:30:11]: Yeah, I think it says it somewhere. Yeah.Swyx [00:30:13]: Yeah. I was like, “What is this?”Ivan [00:30:15]: There's all, there's multiple there, but they also mention a few other places. and so Daytona specifically-We have, the, just jumping on themes here We, I don't know where it says Data Center.Swyx [00:30:27]: I, there.Ivan [00:30:27]: Doesn't matter.Swyx [00:30:28]: There's a very strong recommendation, which is, very unusual. Which is, it's.Ivan [00:30:33]: We do not pay them for this, just.Swyx [00:30:34]: I know, yeah. They just like you.Ivan [00:30:35]: Yeah, they like us. yeah, and also a thing, so, Data Center has multiple isolation sets underneath. The customer doesn't have to know what they are. But basically we have Docker, which is a container, that's hardened with Sysbox. So it's Docker's, isolation that is a security equivalent to a VM, but it's still a container. And that is the default, and they, especially in these training workloads, really like that as an interface to be able to use just a basic Docker container, and we enable Docker and Docker. Which for these RL runs, if you need to do a Docker compose or Kubernetes, you can spin up a K3S inside of these things, which unlocks a huge amount of workloads that you can do that you cannot do on other providers. So just on that part is much more interesting. And so we went that, through that. We showed them that we could do that, and they enjoyed that quite a bit. They being the general venture people.Swyx [00:31:28]: Those people, yeah.Ivan [00:31:29]: And Harbor people.Swyx [00:31:29]: Harbor people, do are they, are they a company yet?Ivan [00:31:33]: As far, I do not know.Customer Pull, Slack Connect, and the Computer Use BetSwyx [00:31:35]: Okay. All right. Yeah. It's like super obvious that like, there's a lot of excitement and success around these things, okay, so yeah, tell us more, right? Like, this is an exploding workload, Harbor adopted you, which helped speed things along. But what are you learning as this new workload comes online?Ivan [00:31:53]: There's a couple things that we learned, which we chat about in the beginning. We, and this has led our story, as we mentioned, we like talked to a lot of customers along the way, and we add more features and more tool sets as we talk to customers. And it's interesting that And I think it's that the ecosystem is so small and/or the models get smarter, where when we see one user come with a request, we know it goes on a roadmap if like three to five customers come with the same request in that week. It's like very bizarre. It happens so many times, which is.Swyx [00:32:27]: Because they're all friends.Ivan [00:32:28]: Sorry?Swyx [00:32:28]: They all, they're all friends. They're all in the same group chat.Ivan [00:32:30]: Yeah, probably, yeah. ‘Cause and they're like, “Oh, can you do this?” And I'm like, “Okay, this is interesting. We'll put it on a feature request.” And then the next one's like, “Oh, can you do this?” “Okay.” It's all the same, right? It's always the same. And so what we try to do, and I personally try to do, I try to be on as many call, quote-unquote “sales calls” I can. I'm in every Slack channel. We literally have about 1,000 Slack Connect channels, something like that. It's an interesting, there's so many interesting things you find out when you have all the Slack channels. You can also see where people, transfer between companies. You see leave Slack channel, enter Slack channel. It's an interesting thing. Also, just I digress, I feel that Slack Connect is literally LinkedIn what it should be. You have a list.Swyx [00:33:08]: LinkedIn charges you to, use your own connections, but Slack doesn't, right? Slack is like, do it for free. It's more lock-in. It's great.Ivan [00:33:15]: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. It's one of the reasons.Swyx [00:33:17]: You're gonna pay Slack for life.Ivan [00:33:18]: Exactly. You're there for life. So that's interesting. And so one of the things, the newer things we were talking about earlier is we made a big bet and put a lot of investment on computer use. that is not seen publicly the light of day. We haven't GA'd that yet, but we have.Swyx [00:33:32]: Is there a thing I can pull up?Ivan [00:33:33]: There is computer use there. It's right up a bit.Swyx [00:33:36]: Oh, yeah. Okay.Ivan [00:33:38]: What we have, what we talked about and what we've seen publicly is there's this theme now about, the human emulator where And Elon from XAI has talked about this publicly, and if you think about the models today, they're actually quite sophisticated and they can do a lot of work, but they still don't have access to all the tools. Like, I'm a strong believer that the most efficient way for an agent to work is essentially headless or through, terminal or whatnot. But if we, if we look at knowledge work in general, there's about 100 million knowledge workers in the US, about a billion in the world, and knowledge workers, and the salaries of them aggregate to 10 trillion in the US 50 trillion worldwide.Swyx [00:34:24]: Wow.Ivan [00:34:25]: Something like that. And if we look at, the five most important sectors of that, so like healthcare and government and financial services and whatnot, that's about 56% of that. So let's say it's about half of that. So in the US it's about 25 trillion, and most of them, most of that work is actually still locked into legacy apps inside of Windows, which is not going anywhere for a very long time. Like, people just won't invest in that. How much of it? our assumption is the following: if, in the RPA market, which is similar market, well, not the same 25% of, these white collar, workers', work is automated. If an agent is more sophisticated, can go through more runs, figure stuff out, let's say it's, 40%, right? And so if you take 40% of that, you get to essentially, $10 trillion a year.Swyx [00:35:17]: That's a TAM.Ivan [00:35:18]: That is a that is a TAM. So that's the TAM of the models, right? That's not our, essentially ours. But you get to that size, and to be able to do that, you essentially have to give agents these computers with the legacy. So computer use, either Mac or Windows or Linux. Linux we also obviously have and others have. But Windows specifically is something very new, and the only option right now is an EC2 with, Windows or on Azure. Both of them take anywhere from three to five minutes to spin up. We've created an actual sandbox, so it's a second instead of milliseconds, but you have, point in time snapshots, you have, forking, you have all the things that you have from a sandbox, but essentially enables you to hopefully unlock all this value. And so that's been our big push and bet, but we've sort of, kept our ear to the ground. What is sort of the next things in the market?RPA Returns: Why Agents Still Need ComputersSwyx [00:36:06]: Yeah, knowledge work, and building, and sort of RPA, the next wave of RPA. I got very excited about RPA kind of during COVID times. The UI path was IPO-ing. And it was, a very hot Isn't it, Eastern European?Ivan [00:36:20]: It is, Romanian.Swyx [00:36:21]: Romanian?Yeah, it might be the only Romanian, big unicorn okay, yeah. This I don't I don't, I don't have like a I think there's, I think there's a stage being set for the resurgence of RPA, ‘cause everyone understands that, yeah, no one wants to deal with these shitty apps and no one's gonna rewrite them. Like, you just have to do, a remote operation and programmatic operation of them.Ivan [00:36:45]: If you wanna unlock it, my own setup was basically the following. So I was doing a board deck recently, last month, whatever, and I'm like, “Okay, let's just, let's just do automated.” So, all our data's in, ClickHouse and PostHog and QuickBooks, where everyone else's is, and I'm basically, connected that all to, my Cloud code, like go off and go Cloud code whatever. Go off and, here's the integrations, go do that. It pulled out the first report, which was great. It connected to Brex and all these things, pulled it, which was great, and then I say, “Okay, now pull out this, and this,” and I kept getting, really well McKinsey-style design reports, but the data said partial data. all the missing data, partial data. Like, it can't access all the things, and I got so frustrated, and so I got, I got, my Mac Mini virtual sandbox with OpenClaw. I gave it its own account in our company, and then I went to all these services and created a read-only account, so literally like an intern in your company. And so I would say, “Now go and do this report,” and it would get the same, or like, “I can't via the MCP or the API or whatever. I can't get all the information.” I'm like, “Go log in.” And it will log into the website, then go in, export the data. It'll export the data and do the thing end to end. So even for things that have today APIs, not all of it is exposed, and I to get value, I get immense value right now, but it has to be a computer usage, unfortunately, and so I spend a bunch of tokens just on that, but I get the job done. And so if even a startup like ours, and using all the hottest tools, still needs a computer agent what hope does, Goldman have to have a headless, right?Swyx [00:38:22]: Yeah, what a - Why isn't Microsoft doing this?Ivan [00:38:27]: I'm pretty sure, Satya had a post yesterday.Swyx [00:38:29]: Oh, okay. I see.Ivan [00:38:29]: Which was like, “Every agent needs a computer.”Swyx [00:38:31]: I see, I see.Ivan [00:38:32]: So they have launched something recently.Swyx [00:38:34]: Yeah, they have Microsoft Power Automate, I'm sure, I'm sure, they're gonna have their version.macOS Sandboxes, Apple Constraints, and the Windows OpportunityIvan [00:38:39]: Version of that, yeah.Swyx [00:38:39]: You're gonna try to do yours, and it - I always know there's always demand for Mac, but I know it's, tricky to host, macOS sandboxes.Ivan [00:38:49]: We will have macOS sandboxes fairly soon. The problem with macOS, OS sandboxes is, I'm deep in this, I don't know how much interesting is.Swyx [00:38:55]: No, it's.Ivan [00:38:56]: MacOS has this problem.Swyx [00:38:57]: It's a licensing thing, right?Ivan [00:38:58]: Licensing thing. So one, you're allowed to run only two parallel VMs per machine, so that's one. Two, you can only license to a different user every 24 hours. So if you come in and theoretically, if I wanna charge you per second and I charge you one second, I have to have it idle for the rest of the day. I can't have anyone else doing that. So the pricing will be different in the sense that I will have to - we would have to charge for 24 hours, and that's not even, that's not even the most difficult thing. But the, thing above that is, from a security perspective, they enable you to do memory snapshot, pause, resume, but only on the same physical drive, physical machine. And so what you can do in, Windows world or Linux world is that I can move in the background, your snapshot from one to the other and manage load, right? Here, if you wanna do that, you essentially have to have your.Swyx [00:39:49]: Yeah, snapshots. Yeah.Ivan [00:39:50]: Your.Swyx [00:39:51]: It's like.Ivan [00:39:51]: Physical machine.Swyx [00:39:52]: You can't break it up.Ivan [00:39:53]: You can't, you can't move things around that, and all of that is, that part is, from a security standpoint, if it is written. Like, I understand the security aspect of that, but it disables you from doing these agentic, like really scalable agentic workloads.Swyx [00:40:08]: You need to do a vibe-coded, clean room implementation on macOS that you can then - That's like Clean OS or something. I don't know.Ivan [00:40:17]: So. We have.Swyx [00:40:18]: ‘cause like Linux was originally like a clean room rewrite of Unix.Ivan [00:40:21]: Okay. Yeah.Swyx [00:40:21]: Or something like that, right? Like same thing to macOS. Someone needs to do it.Ivan [00:40:25]: Someone will do that, and someone will have some long-running agents for a few days to figure this stuff out. But yeah. So definitely we - we're really close to offering something ‘cause people do want it, but the pricing will be different, and the feature set will be sort of stringent.Swyx [00:40:38]: Yeah, nobody's gonna use this. like, the labs, the labs will because they want to automate macOS.Ivan [00:40:42]: They have to do RL. They have to do RL again. But even if you The - So the point is with the RL part, if you, if you do RL on macOS, then the next iteration of the model comes out, it will be able to use these tools significantly. Then you actually need to run those, that somewhere. So you're gonna have to have that, later on. And from, if anyone at Apple is listening, I very much feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot of the scale of the revenue of compute or licensing they could get if they would just enable a concurrency model similar to what you can get on a Windows and a, and Linux.Swyx [00:41:17]: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure they've heard this before. They just don't care. Yeah, it's And maybe they will change their mind with the new CEO.Ivan [00:41:24]: Yeah. We'll see.Swyx [00:41:25]: We'll see.Ivan [00:41:25]: High hopes.Swyx [00:41:26]: High hopes.Ivan [00:41:26]: High hopes.Swyx [00:41:27]: Okay. But I, it's very clear the market opportunity is huge in Windows, and you can go for a long time on just Windows, but your customers are gonna want both. and I think, it is interesting to me that, this is the sort of God application of agents, right? Like, I don't It was - How big was OpenClaw for you guys? Like, was it, was there, a significant bump.OpenClaw, Agent Labs, and the B2B2C Sandbox MarketIvan [00:41:54]: Not for us because we.Swyx [00:41:54]: Because you already.Ivan [00:41:55]: We're kind of positioned differently. Whereas although it's completely PLG and we have individual developers that use it, most of the users that use Daytona are sort of a B2B2C. Sort of it's either B2B or B2B2C. So, in the researcher world, it's B2B, so you're selling to, labs and neo labs and things like that. But on the long-running agents, it's mostly, from a scale revenue perspective, it's mostly B2B2C, where you have a app layer agent that uses you at a big scale.Swyx [00:42:26]: Like a Manus. Yeah.Ivan [00:42:28]: Like a Manus Lovable type of thing.Swyx [00:42:31]: Yeah. I think that's the question of, well how, um-Uh, yeah, B2B to C is basically to me what I've been calling an agent lab, which is kind of like you're not in a model lab, but you're making a very good wrapper that is a platform that other people can sign up so they don't have to code those things. Yeah, it sound, it sounds like a much better market than the direct OpenClaw market.Ivan [00:42:56]: I've like - We I've done multiple things. So the CodeAnywhere's part of our career path R in the calendar, was very much an end user developer product. And so that is great. It You can get a lot of developer love, and I feel that we do as a company have a bunch of developer love. But it's a different type, where it's people building these things. Again, it's more akin to a Twilio because you don't really run - As a person, you wouldn't run Twilio. I don't know how many people remember. It was like ask your developer billboard and whatnot. And people really love Twilio, but they only used it inside of like, “Oh, I'm building this app or service for thing.” And so we're very much directly to that. And you also know that I used to work for a competitor for Twilio, so it's kind of ingrained, in my DNA.Swyx [00:43:35]: People don't know InfoBip is that big.Ivan [00:43:38]: Yeah, it's.Swyx [00:43:39]: Because.Ivan [00:43:40]: It's a billion euro.Swyx [00:43:40]: They're all American. They're like, “Whatever's in Europe doesn't matter to me.” But like it's the, it's the same size or bigger? Same size?Ivan [00:43:46]: It's about half the size.Swyx [00:43:47]: Half the size?Ivan [00:43:48]: Yeah, about half the size.Swyx [00:43:48]: It's like, yeah.Ivan [00:43:48]: Still huge. Multiple billions a year. Yes.Swyx [00:43:51]: That's crazy.Ivan [00:43:51]: Exactly, and so that - These are like really interesting and large revenue-generating, very sticky businesses. Whereas when you're selling to the - When your focus is the end developer, it is a very hard sell because they're very price sensitive, very price conscious, very around that. And there's very It's very hard to scale. Your cap is the number of people that are willing to spin up - First of all, wanna spin that up, and then spin up multiple of these. Whereas if you're in the enterprise one, like we know everyone's talking about like how many tokens they're spending, I'm spending. Like a lot of companies today are like, “If this is our company, spend as much as you can.” Like basically that is where we're going. And so if you think about that paradigm, where you're selling to companies that say, “Spend as much as you can to generate, productivity,” versus, “Oh, I'm a single person. I have this much budget, and I'm doing this thing because it's fun or it's helping me out or whatever.” Like it is a different, it's a different go-to-market, I think, strategy.MCP, CLIs, and Sandboxes as the Agent RuntimeSwyx [00:44:50]: Yeah, there's a lot of discussion. I'm just kind of going through like the mental list of things that are in your favor, which is, for example, MCP versus CLI. Like obviously you want CLI. It's been very good for you. I feel like it's maybe a drop in the bucket or maybe it's huge. I'm just checking whether it's like these are big trends.Ivan [00:45:10]: Those things you - work well in our favor, to your point just because every.Swyx [00:45:13]: They're kind of drop in the bucket, right?Ivan [00:45:15]: I think it's like sort of all the things come together. And so there's so many things that impact that. To your point, like OpenClaw wasn't huge for us, but like having the agent SDK, from Anthropic, so or Cloud Claude Code was very interesting. The reason why it was interesting is that a lot of, let's call them app I don't know what to call them, app layer agent companies, essentially they are like, “Oh, I can create this new app, this new agent. All I need, I just use Claude Code, and I throw it into a sandbox, and then I have my interface to the human to that.” And so that enabled so many more companies to actually offer this, and then they would pull on sandbox. So that was, that was interesting. And to your point, like MCP, versus the CLI, the MCP is an interface against an API, whereas the CLI is like you can actually go do things. Like this is it. The difference between integrations and actually running scripts or data or analysis against a thing. So being able to use a CLI very well enables the agent to do more things, and it's because that people will invoke a sandbox, they'll run it in the CLI, and but it'll do anal-analysis on that data and then give you an actual result versus just, pulling data from an API source.Swyx [00:46:29]: Yeah, it's a layer of indirection basically, it's the same thing as agentic search versus RAG, which where you're.Ivan [00:46:34]: Exactly, yeah.Swyx [00:46:34]: Just like you just win whenever people put more agents into their workflow. And so like it doesn't really matter, but I'm just kinda teasing out like what else have people heard about that like it's sort of, “Oh yeah, this is another sandbox use case. Oh yeah, that's another one.” Am I, am I missing any big ones?Ivan [00:46:51]: The thing, the thing that people, which is the computer use stuff, which I think is probably the most interesting one, is, and to your point, we've talked to so many people over the last year. It's like, “Oh, like why do you need a sandbox? Why do you need this? Why this?” And to your point, it's like, “Oh, I need sandbox for this. I need sandbox for that. I need sandbox-” It's like, “Oh, I need it for every single thing.” And so basically what I, what I - and it sounds like a broken record, it's like you use a laptop every single day, right? And you are n of one. It's just you. But now imagine how And by the way, the laptop, the computer PC market, the PC market is about equal to the cloud market in total. So it's about 150, 180 billion a year. Something like that. It's about roughly the three cloud hyperscalers is about equal to like Apple, HP, Lenovo, whatever, It's a little bit less, but it's sort of like that. And now imagine And that's just like, so how big is the addressable market? What, how many people are there in the world now? What's the last data?Swyx [00:47:45]: Let's call it eight billion.Ivan [00:47:46]: Eight billion. And so let's say you can have two computer, like you have one personal and one business, whatever. Like so it's double that, right? and so that's 16 billion, right? How many agents are gonna be running in two years, in 10 years, in 100 years? Like And for every single task, they will need one of these. And so how big is that? That market is essentially quote unquote “infinite”. You will get to the point, and Dylan Patel was at the conference talking about, from SemiAnalysis, that talks usually about GPUs, was also talking about how CPUs will now be a bottleneck because it will be the constraint. You won't be able to grow, or we won't be able to have enough of these because there won't be enough CPUs to basically do.Swyx [00:48:23]: Yeah. Well, I actually had a really good podcast with Doug Oliphant, who, which was his president at SemiAnalysis, where they've basically been like, yeah, it's been a GPU shortage first, but then it's cascaded down to memory and now to CPUs.Ivan [00:48:35]: CPU, yeah.Swyx [00:48:35]: It-What's next? So networking. So, networking actually has been in shortage for a while if you're looking at, just GPU networking. But, yeah, it's really crazy the amount of computer use that's going on, yeah, cool. I, other questions are, just the one very big part is the open sourceness which you didn't have to do, your competitors don't do, like it's not, a lot of people are worried about keeping their projects open source because some competitor can just slot fork it. I don't know if there's any reflections on just being an open source company.Open Source, Trust, and Enterprise ProcurementIvan [00:49:15]: Yeah. There's a bunch. So we the original product that we did was open source.Swyx [00:49:19]: Yeah. CodeAnywhere.Ivan [00:49:20]: So doing that was actually very good for us. There's basically a saying of, What's the saying? Like, companies that are, that are doing really well, measure themselves against, free cashflow, that are kinda okay, it's EBITDA, then, it's, it goes all the way down.Swyx [00:49:36]: The worst is like GitHub stars.Ivan [00:49:37]: GitHub stars. GitHub stars are the worst, yeah. So you go all the way down to GitHub stars. And so our original one was GitHub stars. That's what we talked about, we're at the point we're talking about revenue, so we're we've gone up the stack on that. And so we started.Swyx [00:49:47]: No, profit.Ivan [00:49:48]: Yeah. We haven't, we're, we'll get there. We'll get there. But basically at that point we did stars and GitHub and it was useful, and the original variation that we did, it we split the core into its own repo and it was Apache 2.0, so very, permissive. And then we basically would bundl

Take the 2026 AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and AIE WF tickets!This was recorded before Railway suffered a major GCP outage on May 19, despite being a multi-AZ, multi-zone mesh ring, with HA fiber interconnects between their Metal GCP AWS, because workload discoverability was unintentionally still tied to GCP. All has been resolved with a post-mortem.Railway did not start as an AI infrastructure company.It was founded in 2020 years before agents became the default way people thought about deploying software. Jake Cooper, formerly at Bloomberg and Uber, started Railway with a simple obsession: the activation energy to ship something to production should be near zero. Push code, get a URL, iterate. No Docker files, no Kubernetes manifests, no Ansible scripts stacked on Ansible scripts.For years, this was a slow grind. Railway spent its first 18 months hand-acquiring its first 100 users with Jake personally greeting every Discord signup on a second monitor.Today, Railway has raised $124m and is growing very fast. A 35-person team supports 3 million users, adding roughly 100,000 signups a week. Their bare metal data centers have a 3-month payback period vs. renting in the cloud, with 70% margins funding aggressive cloud bursting when needed. The servers they own have actually appreciated in value as RAM prices have climbed basically meaning the value of their hardware now exceeds the capital they've raised.From rebuilding Railway's network overlay over a weekend to moving the vast majority of workloads onto its own bare metal data centers, Jake Cooper is trying to build a new cloud for an agent-native world. In this episode, Railway's founder and “conductor” joins swyx and Alessio to unpack why the next era of software infrastructure is not just “Heroku but newer,” what agents need that humans did not, and why the old deployment loop of Git, PRs, CI/CD, and static cloud resources may be heading for a rewrite.We go deep on Railway's infrastructure stack: own-metal data centers, three-month cloud payback periods, cloud bursting, data center debt, Railpack, Nixpacks, Temporal, feature flags, Central Station, content-addressable filesystems, agent-safe production forks, and why the CLI may become more important than the canvas in an agent world. Jake also shares the founder journey behind Railway, how the company survived losing $500K/month, why it now serves millions of users with only 35 people, and why he believes the pull request is dying.We discuss:* How Railway went from a slow six-year grind to adding 100,000 users a week* How Railway thinks about agents as the next dominant software species* Why agents need version control, observability, compute, storage, and orchestration at 1000x scale* The economics of Railway's own-metal data centers and three-month payback* How Railway uses cloud bursting while scaling its own infrastructure* Why data center debt can be a better tool than venture debt for infra startups* Central Station, Railway's internal system for clustering customer feedback and incidents* Why responsible disclosure and over-communication matter for platforms* Why feature flags, progressive rollouts, and shadow traffic are essential for agents* Temporal's strengths, pain points, and why workflows matter for agents* Railpack, Nixpacks, Nix, and lazy-loaded content-addressable filesystems* Why “cattle, not pets” may change if you can clone the pets* Why Railway is building a new cloud from scratch instead of copying hyperscalers* The solo founder path, focus, writing, and how Jake thinks about company buildingRailway:* Website: https://railway.com/* X: https://x.com/RailwayJake Cooper:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejakecooper/* X: https://x.com/JustJakeTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction: What Is Railway?00:02:07 Jake's Path to Railway00:06:13 Railway's Six-Year Growth Story00:08:52 Rebuilding the Business After the Free Tier00:11:17 Agents as the Next Software Platform00:13:29 Railway's Infrastructure Philosophy00:15:42 Bare Metal, Cloud Economics, and the Compute Crunch00:17:22 Cloud Bursting and Five-Cloud Networking00:20:20 Data Center Debt and Infra Financing00:23:31 Data Centers in Space00:25:24 What Agents Need From Infrastructure00:28:24 CLIs, Canvas, and Agent-Native UX00:35:15 Central Station, Incidents, and Responsible Disclosure00:40:30 Safe Rollouts, SRE Agents, and Production Forks00:45:00 AI SRE, Specs, Code, and Tests00:48:24 Self-Replicating Infrastructure and the New Serverless00:53:18 Heroku, Temporal, and Workflow Engines01:04:07 Railpack, Nixpacks, and Lazy-Loaded Filesystems01:06:01 Coding Agents, Token Spend, and Roadmap Acceleration01:10:56 The Pull Request Is Dying01:12:28 Feature Flags and the Agent-Era SDLC01:16:15 Cattle, Pets, and Cloning Machines01:19:29 Solo Founder Lessons01:24:12 Focus, GPUs, and Building a New Cloud01:28:20 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by Swyx, editor of Latent Space.Swyx [00:00:10]: Hey, hey, hey. Today we're in the studio with Jake Cooper of Railway.Alessio [00:00:14]: Conductor of Railway.Swyx [00:00:15]: Conductor at Railway. Yeah.Alessio [00:00:16]: Choo-choo.Swyx [00:00:17]: Do you actually have that anywhere, like on your business card?Jake [00:00:20]: We call some of our volunteer moderators conductors. I don't have a business card. We're not that big yet. At some point I will. I got handed a nice business card from the Supermicro folks, and I was like, “Damn, this is pretty official.”Swyx [00:00:30]: Business cards are coming back.Jake [00:00:32]: They're cool. They're hip. The conductor thing is good. We're trying to figure out what we want to call each other internally. Some people think it's super cringe and say, “You don't need a name for people internally.” Some people want to call each other something. We still don't have a really good one.Jake [00:00:55]: We've got New Railcrews, Trainiacs. Nothing has stuck yet.Swyx [00:01:00]: I like Trainiac. Trainiac sounds good. Railwayians. For those who don't know, what is Railway? Let's give people a crisp definition up front.Jake [00:01:09]: Railway is the easiest way to ship anything. You go to the canvas, or you talk with Claude, and you say, “Deploy a Postgres instance, deploy my GitHub repository, run this code,” and you're off to the races.Swyx [00:01:22]: You've got a nice animation on the landing page.Jake [00:01:24]: Thank you. None of my work, by the way. They don't let me touch the design stuff anymore.Jake [00:01:25]: We want to make it trivially easy not just to deploy things, but to evolve applications over time. Most tooling right now stacks entropy on top of entropy: Docker, Kubernetes, Ansible scripts, and all these other things. If we can version all of your software and keep track of all the changes, then we can make it trivial to clone environments, fork into a parallel universe, get copies of production data, get copies of any services, make changes, validate them, and collapse them back in without reproducing everything across a staging environment.The Railway Origin Story: From Uber Systems to a New CloudSwyx [00:02:07]: I was looking at your background: Bloomberg, Uber. Nothing immediately stands out as, “This guy is going to found the next great platform as a service.” What prepared you for Railway?Jake [00:02:21]: It was curiosity to keep going deeper. I started out on front-end stuff, working on Wolfram Mathematica and porting it over. Then I briefly moved to Bloomberg, then toward Uber and distributed systems, taking the Jump Bikes systems and moving them to a distributed system built on top of Cadence, the pre-Temporal Temporal.Swyx [00:02:44]: Which, by the way, I'm happy to talk about, pros and cons.Jake [00:02:48]: Totally.Swyx [00:02:51]: But let's do the Railway story.Jake [00:02:52]: It has been a continual step of wanting an experience. Whether it's walking up to a bike, unlocking it, and having it work frictionlessly, or something else, the depth required to make that happen follows from the experience. A lot of the work I do, and a lot of the team does, is in service of that experience. We fundamentally don't care how deep we have to go. We will swim to the bottom of the swimming pool to get the experience.Jake [00:03:17]: I don't have a physics PhD. I did an EECS degree. It has always been about figuring out the next step: how do we get there? That's what led to starting Railway for that experience and then moving all the way to bare metal data centers. I was adding patches to the kernel this week to get the experience there because I can see how much better it can be.Swyx [00:03:49]: Other patches to the Linux kernel this week?Jake [00:03:51]: Yeah. Not upstream. Our fork.Swyx [00:03:52]: That's a flex. Railpack? No, this is different. This is the OS on top of Railpack?Jake [00:03:57]: No, this is an actual kernel patch. It's always literally: what do we have to do to get that experience? Then figure it out. Anything is figureoutable.Swyx [00:04:10]: Would you send the patch upstream, or does it not fit other use cases?Jake [00:04:13]: Maybe. We have to work out the experience internally. It has to do with the storage layer we're building for some of the agentic stuff. Maybe it'll be useful upstream, but it's deeply useful for us internally.Open Source, Forks, and Non-Deterministic VersioningSwyx [00:04:29]: You mentioned open source before. How do you think about starting from open source, and then coding agents letting you do a lot more from forks of it?Jake [00:04:38]: GitHub's original sin is that it's almost a series of broken pointers. You have this thing, then you clone it, and now you've lost the whole upstream. How do we make it trivial for people to modify really small pieces of it?Jake [00:04:51]: We think of Git in a discrete sense: I've either made a change and merged upstream, or I haven't. What would it look like if it were percentage-based, a little more non-deterministic, or a stream of changes that users traverse as a percentage rolled out in general and then rolled all the way up?Jake [00:05:13]: We have the open-source kickback program and let you deploy templates because we want to make it trivial for people to version these shards over time. It solves a large problem around authentication, authorization, and security. NPM has a way to define, “Don't take any new packages.” The ideal end state is that you roll out progressively to users with the minimum impact zone and continue rolling up. JPMorgan should probably be the last one on the patch line, for all our sakes, because our money and livelihoods are there.Jake [00:05:53]: It's okay if Johnny Vibe Coder gets a broken patch because there's so much entropy in the system that the rubber has to meet the road at some point. You have to test at varying levels.The Long Grind: First Users, Free Tier, and Making the Business WorkSwyx [00:06:13]: I wanted to pull up this glorious chart, which is your usage or number of daily signups?Jake [00:06:22]: Daily signups, I think.Swyx [00:06:24]: You started six years ago. It was a slow grind, and now you're on a rocket ship. You say, “Don't doubt your fight and don't quit.” Maybe pick out certain points that were key inflections for the company.Jake [00:06:40]: At the start, it's about getting your first 100 users, hell or high water. We had a website and a support link. The support link was the Discord channel. I had notifications on with two monitors: the monitor I was working on and the other monitor with Discord. If anybody came in, I was immediately like, “Hey, how's it going?” It was rare, so getting those first 100 users to come back was the start.Jake [00:07:14]: Then you build a consultancy factory because users want all these things. You have to go back to the board and ask, “What is the actual product offering I want to build on top of this?”Jake [00:07:28]: VCs want charts that always go up and to the right, but in reality you don't necessarily want charts that look like that. For us, there have been periods of expansion where we add features to test use cases, and periods of compaction where we ask, “If the experience we have is good, how do we make it significantly better?” Maybe we strip out features that don't fit our ICP anymore.Jake [00:07:57]: The boom from 2022 to 2023 came from the free tier. Everybody under the sun was using it.Swyx [00:08:09]: A lot of Reddit bots and Discord bots.Jake [00:08:12]: And crypto miners. When you build an open product on the internet where anybody can sign up, the internet is a horrible place with so many things. You go through periods of asking, “How do I reach as many people as possible?” Then, “How do I fit the exact use case for the people who really matter and are really excited about this specific thing?”Jake [00:08:39]: Then there was a two-year period of making the actual business work. During the free-tier era, we were losing about half a million dollars a month.Swyx [00:08:59]: On a $20 million bank account.Jake [00:09:02]: On a $20 million bank account with maybe $50,000 a month in revenue. That's a horrible business. I don't know how anybody invested. But you have to go through it and say, “We have an experience people love, but the business has to work.”Jake [00:09:17]: There are two schools of thought. You can run the horrible business all the way up with bad margins, or you can go back and make it work. We've always wanted a super lean team. We're 35 people right now. It's very small.Swyx [00:09:36]: Supporting three million already?Jake [00:09:38]: Yeah. We're adding 100,000 users a week right now, so it's growing fast. We don't want to add headcount for the sake of headcount or throw bodies at problems. We want to build systems. It's hard to build systems during expansion because you're adding things to the system because people are asking for them or things are breaking.Jake [00:10:00]: We had to cut off the free users for a little while, rebuild the business, and make sure it worked. We want to reach as many people as possible because software is important. It's become difficult to create things in the physical world, so it's important to make it easy for people to build in the virtual world and have access to creation. But there are legs to that journey.Jake [00:10:30]: You can see divots in the charts. If you follow between 2025 and 2026, it's either summer or winter. People go on holiday with family.Swyx [00:10:50]: It affects that much?Jake [00:10:51]: Yeah. It's kind of B2C and kind of B2B. People are shipping constantly, then they stop. Our activation curve now shows more people activating on weekdays because we have more business users, so it smooths out over time.Agents as the New Interface to DeploymentSwyx [00:11:17]: Was there a point where you started prioritizing AI development or agent development?Jake [00:11:24]: We've prioritized agentic as a top-of-funnel thing. Over the last six months, we've deeply prioritized agentic as a mechanism to build and deploy things because we believe the curve is so steep and that is how people will build and deploy software.Jake [00:11:42]: It almost fundamentally doesn't matter whether this is dot-com or not because we're all on the internet anyway. If agents are going to deploy a bunch of things and we hit an inference wall at some point, we'll fix those problems. The dominant species over the next 10 years is that we've moved from assembly to C to C++ to JavaScript to words. You're going to need to close that loop.Swyx [00:12:13]: When you say this is dot-com, did you mean buying the domain, or the general case?Jake [00:12:17]: I mean the dot-com era, when companies had a huge run-up because people understood the internet was important. Then they hit bottlenecks, fundamental laws of physics, math didn't work, and everybody came back down to earth. But it didn't matter because the internet became so impactful. If you operate on a long enough time horizon, you should build these things anyway because you can see where it's going.Jake [00:12:45]: That's where I think a lot of agent stuff is. You get to a point where you're running thousands of agents in parallel. What is the inference cost? What is the compute cost? How do you make that efficient? How do you coordinate all this? We have issues coordinating humans; we don't even have good tooling for that. Now we have to figure out how to get agents to coordinate, safely version changes, and know when to raise their hand for someone to intervene. Otherwise it becomes an interrupt factory.Railway's Infrastructure Thesis: Network, Compute, Storage, and MetalSwyx [00:13:19]: Let's go right into the technical side. What are the core infrastructure or architectural beliefs of Railway that allow you to do what you do?Jake [00:13:29]: The primitives matter a lot for us. We need network, compute, storage, and orchestration around it. You need control over a lot of those things. We've talked a lot about how we don't really use Kubernetes because we want higher-order control to place workloads in very specific places.Jake [00:13:48]: The reason is that you have to be very efficient with agents: memory reuse and all these other things, or you're going to massively blow up your cost structure. Being able to rack and stack your own servers and build your own metal unlocks performance and cost. Experiences where you're running 1,000 agents in parallel are not massively cost prohibitive.Jake [00:14:13]: Token use and compute use are blowing up. Over time, those things have to get a lot more efficient. You can get a lot of margin to make those experiences solid by building your own metal. That's all in service of offering a differentiated experience to as many people as humanly possible.Swyx [00:14:51]: You have a data center in Singapore.Jake [00:14:53]: Yeah. We have two in every other region now. In Singapore, we're adding a second one in Q3.Swyx [00:14:58]: What's it like? I've never built a data center. Do you go to Equinix and say, “I want some slots?”Jake [00:15:05]: Yeah. Equinix. You basically go and say, “I want power and I want a cage.” They say, “Great, here's what it's going to be.” You rent the cage for a period of time, fill it with racks and servers, and hook up internet to it. That's all the pieces.Swyx [00:15:36]: Then you handle everything else.Jake [00:15:37]: You handle everything else.Swyx [00:15:39]: What's the math versus clouds doing it for you?Jake [00:15:43]: If we rented in the cloud, our payback period when we go to metal is about three months.Swyx [00:15:50]: Which is crazy.Jake [00:15:51]: It's nuts. That's four years of depreciated hardware. You're going to see a lot of this compute crunch because hyperscalers are buying up a lot of stuff. We're working directly with OEMs, resellers, and people building these machines: Supermicro, Dell, and others.Jake [00:16:11]: Upstream, there's a bunch of supply pressure. When we raised our last round, between deploying capital for servers and now, the amount of money we've raised is less than the amount of money we have in the bank plus the value of the servers because the servers have appreciated as RAM has gone up. It's nuts how valuable hardware has become.Jake [00:16:50]: If you look at hyperscalers, they deployed around $80 billion of capital expenditures this year, and next year will be more. That's a massive infrastructure build-out. You look at that and think it's crazy that they're spending way more than the Manhattan Project. But if every person is going to run dozens or hundreds of agents in parallel, you have no conceptual idea how much compute is required to make that experience happen, even if you're deeply efficient and sharing resources. And that doesn't even count inference.Swyx [00:17:22]: How do you plan the build-out? The growth chart is so vertical. Are you usually at 100% utilization as soon as racks are live? How far ahead are you planning?Jake [00:17:33]: We still maintain cloud presence for bursting. We work with AWS, GCP, and a few other clouds. We can rent, and then the moment we get space or power, we compact those workloads off the cloud. We started on the clouds, then built a system to migrate to our own metal. There's nothing that says you can't continually do that again, and that's exactly what we do. We never want to be compute constrained.Jake [00:18:09]: At the start of the year, we actually became compute constrained because one upstream provider wasn't able to give us quota at the rate we needed, and the hardware was slower. I spent a weekend rebuilding our entire network overlay so we could straddle five clouds: Oracle, AWS, ourselves, GCP, and one other one. We can do more than that now.Jake [00:18:38]: We got into a spot where we were trying to pack instances tight because we couldn't get enough compute. That led to a few reliability issues, which are now past us. I made a tweet pointing out that it's becoming harder and harder to acquire compute at the rate these models need to acquire compute. We got bit by it.Swyx [00:19:15]: How do you think about pricing knowing you might not have your own metal available at all times? Are you pricing assuming you need extra margin if you end up going into the cloud?Jake [00:19:26]: Because we've built out our metal data centers, our margins on metal are around 70%. We can deeply subsidize the cloud business if we want to scale at a reasonable rate. We have a few levers: metal, which makes the margins; cloud burst; debt to buy servers; and venture capital. It's an interesting operational problem: how much cash do we have, how much should we raise, how quickly can we deploy it, and can we scale revenue as quickly as we scale compute?Jake [00:20:05]: If we continue making it trivially easy for people to build and deploy, then the faster we close that loop and the more operationally excellent we are with capital, the faster the business can scale. It's almost a straight linear deployment rate.Financing Infrastructure: Hardware Debt, VC, and Operational LeverageSwyx [00:20:20]: I think infra startups raising debt is a tool people don't utilize enough or know enough about. What can you tell us about that? Is it secured against your CPUs?Jake [00:20:32]: It's secured against our hardware.Swyx [00:20:37]: What rates do you get? Who are the lenders?Jake [00:20:39]: We pay prime plus a spread, and we can refinance any of the debt as rates go down. The terms are pretty good. The unfortunate thing is that Twitter has no nuance, so people say, “Venture debt bad.” But as with all things, there are specific tools and areas where you can be deliberate instead of using one tool as a hammer. Venture capital is not the hammer for everything. You have to explore and figure out what works.Swyx [00:21:12]: VC is usually the most expensive financing you can get.Jake [00:21:15]: Yeah. I also think people think about VC incorrectly from a capital-raising perspective. Most people think, “How do I raise as much money as possible from whoever is probably the best I can get at that time?” That's close to right, but what we've tried to do is figure out what unfair advantage we can buy with that equity.Jake [00:21:34]: It's the most expensive equity you're going to give away at that point in time, assuming the company keeps getting better. How do you use it to work with someone stellar who complements you? In the seed stage, I had never started a company. Ray Tonsing had good advice, and I could text him all the time. He was really fast. Awesome.Jake [00:22:01]: Then with John and Erica at Unusual, they said, “You roughly know what you're doing building a product. We'll mostly leave you alone and be available for advice.” Amazing. Then we got to Series A and the business was an operational tire fire because we didn't know how to scale a business. Work with Erica, and Jordan is over at Redpoint, so bonus.Jake [00:22:28]: Now we've raised from TQ and FPV as we're moving into enterprises. Every step of the way, we've asked: who can we partner with at this specific time to unlock the next section of the journey? I don't know enterprise sales. As an engineer, I can eyeball what features we might need, and we have wonderful people internally who can help. But you want boardroom dynamics where everyone is aligned and asking, “How do we win this?” instead of bickering about strategy.Data Centers in Space and the Physics of ComputeSwyx [00:23:31]: You had a tweet about data centers in space. Why no data centers in space?Jake [00:23:37]: It's not “no data centers in space.” My hot take is that I think it is solvable. I've just never seen anybody solve it.Swyx [00:23:49]: You said, “How are you going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum?” You're making a physics claim.Jake [00:23:55]: I haven't seen anybody prove how you're going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum. It doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means nobody has brought it up yet.Swyx [00:24:05]: Astrophage.Jake [00:24:06]: I don't know what that is.Swyx [00:24:07]: The Martian thing. Okay, you're very logical.Jake [00:24:09]: It could work. A lot of people are putting the cart before the horse. They say, “We're going to put data centers in space.” Okay, but how? “We have time to figure it out.” It's like in The Martian where they ask how they're going to intercept something and say, “We'll figure it out.”Swyx [00:24:36]: Making a bet on human invention is weird because you blind trust that it can be solved. But with physics, there are first-principles bounds you can put on it. Maybe not. Maybe you're asking to travel time or break a fundamental thermodynamic law.Jake [00:24:57]: I don't know how VCs do this either. How do you know what's not possible and a grift versus what's possible but sounds completely insane? “We're going to put data centers in space.” Coin flip as to which it is, and I guess you'll know in 10 years. That's one cycle.What Agents Need: Versioning, Observability, and 1,000x ScaleSwyx [00:25:23]: Moving back to agents. The branching, fast spin-up, and orchestration you do feels like pre-work that happened to be exactly what agents want. What do agents want differently than humans?Jake [00:25:37]: They want the ability to version things. It's not that different; it materializes slightly differently. Agents want a way to test changes incrementally. Engineers have feature flags. Is there a reason agents can't use feature flags? I don't think so.Jake [00:25:54]: They want version control. Can we use Git or not Git? That one is up in the air. I think something outside Git will emerge for how we version these things over time. They need observability. You need to query what happened, when it happened, which steps failed, traces, logs, metrics, and all the rest. They need network, compute, and storage. They need to write files, save files, iterate on files, and snapshot file systems.Jake [00:26:25]: A lot of what humans needed is in line with what agents need. Branching and forking are not different; we're just moving 1,000 times quicker. It can look like you need something massively different, but what you need is something massively better than what existed. You need orchestration massively better than Kubernetes. You need networking probably better than Envoy. It goes all the way down the stack.Jake [00:26:55]: If the workload profile doesn't change so much as it gets massively compressed because you need thousands of these things, what assumptions change? etcd is going to melt. You need to replace it with something. You can go all the way down the stack and say, “That part has to change, that part has to change, and that part has to change.”Jake [00:27:19]: The interesting thing about the super-exponential curve is that you have to build systems where you can rip out those parts at any time because a new bottleneck might emerge. You get good at parallel agents, and a different part of the system breaks. So it's similar to what humans needed, but at 1,000x scale.Jake [00:27:55]: How do you do code review in the age of agents?Swyx [00:28:00]: You throw more agents at it.Jake [00:28:01]: You don't. But then who reviews for CVEs and all these other things?Swyx [00:28:07]: More agents.Jake [00:28:08]: And that's how we hit the inference wall. You can continually throw agents at the problem, but I think there's a limit to the number of agents you can throw at a problem.CLI, Agent Handles, and Closing the LoopSwyx [00:28:24]: You already had a CLI before it was cool. How is the shape of what you're exposing changing, if at all?Jake [00:28:28]: CLIs have always been cool. The CLI changes because we think about how to give Claude, Codex, ChatGPT, or any model a handhold.Jake [00:28:50]: A CLI is a single command: deploy, get logs, and so on. Things that were prohibitively annoying to humans are not annoying to agents. They're nice. If I handed you a CLI with 40 arguments and 600 flags, you'd think, “I'm never going to use all of this.” But if you hand it to an agent, it says, “This is excellent. I have so many handles to work with.”Jake [00:29:24]: If you're going to expose things to agents that way, you want as many handles as possible where they can get information, query dynamic information, and close the loop quickly. Most problems right now are about how to close the loop as quickly as possible. Where does the agent get stuck, and how can you remove that?Jake [00:29:49]: Telemetry is important. If you can tell where the agent gets stuck from the CLI and say, “12% of people deviate from the happy path because of this, and now I add this argument and drive it down to 2%,” you massively increase the rate of loop closure.Jake [00:30:03]: That's how we think about not just the CLI, but every point in the dashboard. It's a user journey: I hear about Railway. I get something deployed. I get my first green build or aha moment. I see an endpoint, logs, whatever. Then I iterate. The iteration loop is indefinite. The user wants to deploy a new thing, a Postgres instance, change code, and keep iterating.Jake [00:30:36]: If you focus on the iteration loops and what's blocking them from closing quickly, one thing we say internally is: you never want to be waiting on compute anymore. You always want to be waiting on intelligence. If you're waiting on compute, there's a bottleneck that needs to be destroyed because eventually that bottleneck becomes so large that another workflow emerges to change it.Jake [00:31:04]: We've built a product where you push code, build it, and so on. But I fundamentally believe the push-pull loop is going away. We'll get to a point where you make a small change in production, that change is versioned across your infrastructure, you're working alongside copy-on-write versions of your database and infrastructure, and then you merge it in and it's instantaneously live. That's the holy grail of loops. The push-pull-rebuild thing is a point of friction that we're removing entirely.Canvas as Output: Dashboards, Context Anchors, and HyperstructuresSwyx [00:31:43]: It's incredibly fast. If anyone hasn't tried it, that fast feedback is great. My hot take is that Railway was famous for its canvas, which visualizes your infrastructure and lets you manipulate it visually. But that was for humans. For the next phase of growth, Railway CLI is more important than canvas.Jake [00:32:05]: The canvas is funny because it's a mechanism to show changes over time. You're right that previously we used it a lot as an input. Moving forward, its goal is more like an output. You would go to the canvas, make changes, see them, and watch your infrastructure evolve. Now agents have access to the CLI and can make those changes. So the canvas becomes an output: what information does the human need at this moment to make suitable decisions about control requests? Do I approve this or not?Jake [00:32:57]: It also has to be an anchor for your context, a port in the storm. Think of it like layers in a file system. You start with a project, then drill down into services, then into a function or code, because you want to represent the entire thing not just in your head, but in the canvas. Other people can share that representation, think on the same wavelength, and move quickly.Jake [00:33:33]: A lot of organizations get in trouble as they scale because all the context lives in someone's head. “How does this microservice work?” “I have no idea; go ask this person.” Then you have whole categories of products built around context discovery. A lot of that melts away if you have a solid hierarchy and can infinitely nest services, code, context, and everything else all the way down. That's what lets you build these structures over time.Jake [00:34:18]: It's also what lets us build what I've called hyperstructures: things that are way bigger. You look at the Golden Gate Bridge and ask, “How did we build that?” There's a meme that we lost the technology. To some extent, yes, because the coordination that built those things evolved and changed. We lost some of the art of building structure as we jammed everything into Slack.Swyx [00:34:52]: But you jam everything in Discord.Jake [00:34:53]: Same point. It doesn't matter. It's message passing and interrupts, message passing and interrupts.Swyx [00:35:00]: So you're arguing there should be something better and more structured than Slack?Jake [00:35:04]: Yeah. For sure. I think Slack is awful, and Discord is awful too.Central Station: Context Routing, Support, and Incident ClustersSwyx [00:35:09]: This is the equivalent of my mom test. What have you done that has your solution to this?Jake [00:35:15]: Internally, we've built a tool called Central Station that aggregates all the context from our users. Every piece of feedback, every customer support item, everything gets aggregated into clusters. If an incident is brewing, we can determine how many users are affected and break off a discussion based on that.Jake [00:35:40]: That is more helpful than long-running channels where you're trying to decide which channel to put something in. If you can dynamically aggregate information and dynamically route it to the right person based on context, it works better. We know internally that these four people are close to networking. If we see a networking thing, we can drill it down to those four people. If it's with this part, we can look at the commits. This is no longer a manual process internally.Jake [00:36:13]: If you go to station or help.railway.com, that's why we built it. We wanted to scale with a massive amount of leverage by aggregating feedback.Swyx [00:36:27]: This is built in-house?Jake [00:36:28]: Yep.Swyx [00:36:29]: I remember helping out on this one with Angelo in 2023. You scale a lot with a very small team.Jake [00:36:38]: Yeah. We're about 10 times bigger now.Swyx [00:36:40]: You have your full developer code here? Very cool.Jake [00:36:44]: If you go to railway.com/stats, we expose this as a pub-sub-able thing. It's all real-time metrics. There's a way to get it as JSON somewhere if you care.Jake [00:37:01]: We're big on trying to build everything in public and talk about what we're working on. We've had issues in the past, and we'll say, “Here's how we're fixing these things.” We've gotten compliments and flak for incident reports. We're always trying to make them better and talk with people.Incidents, Disclosure, and Progressive RolloutsSwyx [00:37:20]: You had a big one recently. I liked that it was scoped to 3,000. You presumably used Central Station. Talk through what happened and how you address it internally as a team.Jake [00:37:38]: Internally, this one really sucked. It had to do with an upstream provider that didn't do the behavior it said it documented, which is unfortunate given they wrote the RFC for how the behavior should work. We rolled those things out, and Central Station caught it initially when a couple users said caches weren't invalidating. We turned it off immediately.Jake [00:38:03]: When you roll out to a large user base of three million people, you get a lot of disparate behaviors. We tested in staging and had tests, but we hit an edge case. We've hardened those systems, and now we can make that better. But it was a tough one.Swyx [00:38:39]: I always wonder how private disclosure is supposed to work if people find an issue. Are they supposed to contact you first? When you run a platform, these things will happen. What channels should people pursue to quietly resolve it before it becomes a bigger incident?Jake [00:38:59]: There's responsible disclosure. We err on the side of over-disclosing and letting you know something is wrong versus having your provider gaslight you. We've erred on sharing those things more publicly, even if they impact a small subset of users. That's a decision we've made internally. We have four values. One is honor. The honorable thing is to notify people to the widest degree at which they may have been affected or there was an issue, and then confront it head-on: why did it happen, what can we do better?Swyx [00:39:45]: Not the whole user base. That's because of incremental rollouts and other things?Jake [00:39:50]: Yeah. Progressive rollouts.Swyx [00:39:54]: That should be the norm at all large platforms.Jake [00:39:58]: It should. A variety of companies do this. There's the quote that Meta runs 10,000 different versions of Meta. To our earlier point about agents, they need the same thing. They need shadow traffic and all these other things. We've built so much ceremony around production being sacred that we need to make it trivially easy to test different behaviors in a safe environment. Then you can make mistakes in a safe environment.Safe AI SRE: Customer Agents, Forked Environments, and Production ParityAlessio [00:40:30]: Do you see a world where these things get automatically caught, not necessarily by your agent, but by your customer's agent? The cache invalidation issue seems easy to check if you know to look for it.Jake [00:40:44]: It's hard because to determine it, we almost need to hook into your observability infrastructure. That's why we have the template loop on the platform: so you can roll things out progressively. You can roll out to Johnny Vibe Coder initially, or push a shard that someone consumes at their own leisure. Or you can roll it out over weeks: 0.1% of people, 1% of people, early adopters, then all the way up. That's the non-deterministic version control we talked about earlier.Jake [00:41:30]: I believe that's where most things should go, because most companies end up building staged rollout systems in-house. It's the same thing built again and again at every company. There's a massive opportunity to consolidate developer debt.Alessio [00:41:45]: You should have a free tier. Model providers give free tokens if you let them use the data. You could give free compute if someone is the number-one shard that goes out and lets you plug into their observability.Jake [00:41:55]: We do that. That's why we talked about the impact on 3,000 people. We start with lower-impact people. Larger companies on the platform are last to receive those rollouts so they have a version of the platform that's deeply stable.Alessio [00:42:16]: I have three services, so I'm sure I get the first rollout. You can nuke my thing at any time. There are all these SRE agent companies. Observability people also want agents that fix upstream problems. You have your own agent in the canvas now. How do you see that playing out?Jake [00:42:39]: It's the stacking entropy problem. If you don't have primitives to make iteration in production safe, it becomes difficult. If you're an observability provider saying, “Here's the fix to this error,” assume 80% are good and make sense. But in the last 20% long tail of complex issues, if you let somebody stamp it, you create an opportunity for an incident.Jake [00:43:08]: That's why forked environments are important. People have staging, but it always drifts from production. You need primitives, workflows, and experience built first-party on the platform so you can fork any service at any point in time.Jake [00:43:33]: I think of the canvas as a sheet of transparency paper. The agent is a little guy you push up into the canvas. It should say, “I need to copy that service and that service so I can test these two things.” It gets a read-only copy of production. Anything that's PII gets marked as a transform when we clone the database, create a copy-on-write version, or read from it. Then the agent makes changes and asks, “Does this actually work?” as close to production as possible.Jake [00:44:22]: That's how close you have to be, or you get massive drift. The system becomes unstable. You see this with massive systems built on Docker for local, Kubernetes for production, and a specific thing for something else. That complexity slows developers and becomes unstable at scale, making it hard to iterate. We want to compress that way down and say, “As close to prod as possible is where we want to be.”From AISRE Skeptic to Agent BelieverSwyx [00:45:00]: I was texting Erica for questions, and she says you were originally not a believer in AISRE. Have you come around on it?Jake [00:45:10]: I flipped, but I'm still not a believer in AISRE if you don't have the primitives to make it safe. If you unleash AISRE on production infrastructure without safe primitives for copying volumes and making sure things are fine, it's going to nuke your production database. It's not a matter of if, but when. I'm a big believer in making those loops safe.Jake [00:45:33]: I was a deep AI skeptic until 2023. In 2024, I thought, “Maybe I can roughly make this thing do it.” In 2025, I thought, “Now I can hold this.” Over winter break, everybody came back saying, “It's almost impossible to hold this.”Swyx [00:46:01]: Did you see this on the Claude docs? CloudBot? OpenCloud?Jake [00:46:06]: It's gotten to a point where it's harder to hold it wrong than to hold it right. There's a scene in Avengers where Vision picks up Thor's hammer and says it's terribly well-balanced. It self-balances and works well. I'm a deep believer at this point that this will be the dominant species: assembly, C, C++, JavaScript, words.Swyx [00:46:35]: It feels like a big jump.Jake [00:46:37]: It is. But it's not like you abandon CPU-based discrete logic and move straight to fuzzy logic. You need both. Your skills should call code or applications or some static structure. You can use skills to distill what the procedure should be or how the code should act.Jake [00:47:02]: I'm coming to a thesis: you need three points. You need a clear spec defining the system, the code, and the tests. When you say it out loud, if you've been in engineering long enough, you're like, “Of course. That's an RFC, tests, and code.” But they all matter. Having them together lets them reinforce each other: the spec and tests match, but the code doesn't, so reconcile it. Or the tests and code match but the spec doesn't, so reconcile that. That's the iteration loop.Jake [00:47:41]: That's why you're seeing people talk about software factories, docs, and reconciliation. Some of that is architectural astronomy if you don't implement it, but that loop is where most things will end up.Swyx [00:48:07]: For listeners, we've been talking about this on the pod for three years: the holy trinity of specs and tests. Itamar Friedman from Qodo is the reference if people want to look it up.Self-Modifying Infrastructure and the End of Push-Pull-RebuildSwyx [00:48:18]: One thing I want to mention on the OpenCloud idea is self-modification. I don't know how Railway would support it, but I have my OpenClaw, and I just tell it it has the Railway CLI and can do whatever. In theory, whatever capabilities or new infra it needs, it can call the Railway CLI, provision it, and add it to itself. The agent can modify its own infra.Jake [00:48:45]: It's nuts. I have a loop set up where you put the Railway CLI on top of something that runs on Railway. You're authenticated as whatever the current box is, and you can make any changes to it. Then you call Railway deploy, and it deploys itself.Jake [00:49:04]: It's like: “I need to spin up this instance of this environment. I already exist in this environment. Excellent, I have access to a Postgres instance now.” That's where we want to go with agentic, self-replicating infrastructure. That's your loop: iterate in production. You continue making changes. If it works, merge it upstream. If it doesn't, throw it away.Jake [00:49:37]: How do you make throwaway copies trivial to spin up and super cheap? The era of “I have an AWS instance with four vCPU and 16 gigs of RAM” is going to get destroyed. If you do that for agents, you need a thousand of those machines. It's prohibitively expensive compared with what we've spent a ton of time figuring out: the atomic unit of deploy, whether you call it isolates, sandboxes, or something else. Only pay for what you use, spin up instantaneously, and close the loop as quickly as possible.Jake [00:50:15]: If the system can self-replicate safely and say, “This is my environment, I'm making these changes,” it can come back with, “Does this look good? This is a new state of infrastructure given this prompt. I think I've solved it.” Then you go back and say, “Actually, it looks different.” It does the loop again. Then you say, “Cool. Apply.”Swyx [00:50:38]: That's retroactively obvious, which is the most useful kind. Any other comments on agent deployment on Railway?Jake [00:50:51]: It's getting better every day. I'm on X or Twitter. You can always yell at me about the parts not working as well as they should, because plenty of things should work way better.The New Serverless: Stateful, Long-Running, Pay-for-What-You-Use LinuxSwyx [00:51:04]: At this stage, when people want massively or embarrassingly parallel compute, they usually talk serverless. I feel like there's a new serverless compared to the previous five years of serverless. You're in that new bucket. Do you have comparisons or philosophical differences you want to call out?Jake [00:51:31]: It's somewhere in between. It's the ability to run stateful, long-running workflows or executions.Swyx [00:51:42]: Vercel has Fluid Compute, Cloudflare has some container thing, Google has App Runner and others.Jake [00:51:55]: That's where everything is roughly going, and it's why we've been working on this for six years. We believe users need access to a computer: a box that speaks Linux. They need to deploy what they want. Other systems change the surface area of what you can build. For us, users need a computer and need to deploy anything they truly want. That's why we've focused on the primitives: network, compute, storage. If we give you those and expose them so you can run things indefinitely, that's where we believe it's going.Jake [00:52:43]: Twitter has no nuance, so everyone says “servers” or “serverless.” It's always somewhere in the middle: I want to run it for a long time, but I don't want to provision the resource statically or pay for things I'm not using. That's been our thesis from day one: pay only for what you use, run it indefinitely, and it is full Linux.Swyx [00:53:12]: That's why I like the naming of Fluid. It's fluid. Flexible.Heroku, Focus, and Carrying the Torch Without Becoming the PastSwyx [00:53:18]: Another milestone is the Heroku official deprecation. You're one of the presumptive new Herokus. “New Heroku” has been a category for as long as I've been in developer tooling. It's finally happening. What was that like? Any behind-the-scenes of, “This is the moment”?Jake [00:53:42]: You have people where you're like, “You were running stuff on here? You, as this company?” It's crazy that names you would know are running on it and now coming to us saying, “We want to move a lot of this off.”Swyx [00:54:00]: Any behind-the-scenes on why Salesforce let Heroku stagnate?Jake [00:54:05]: I can only guess. It's hard when it's not your business. Salesforce's business is to build a great CRM. That's their focus. Then you acquire a compute business as an offshoot. A lot of early Meta people talk about focus. Boz has a write-up about how in the early days of Meta they had no money, so they were forced to focus. Then they turned on the money tree and had no reason not to split their focus.Jake [00:54:52]: But that dilutes your product. You get offshoots where you ask, “Is this the focus of the business?” If it's not core, it languishes. A lot of companies get in trouble when they split focus because they're fighting a multi-front war, not just externally but internally for alignment. Where are we going? What are we doing? What is our purpose?Jake [00:55:24]: If you're Salesforce-built and mission-driven, you want to work on Salesforce. Heroku is off to the side. It's not core to the business. Getting resources, budget, focus, and alignment internally becomes hard. It was a matter of time.Swyx [00:56:06]: Kudos for them to call it out instead of leaving it unknown.Jake [00:56:12]: Their release was a little odd. They called it out, but they didn't say they were shutting it down. Behind the scenes, I think they issued messages to people saying they should close accounts and that they were going to deprecate and remove things over time.Jake [00:56:30]: It's crazy because some of my first deployment experiences were on Heroku. You start with dragging things into an FTP server, then you try to get a deploy working, and then it's Heroku. It was the on-ramp for us. But the wheel turns. New things emerge. We're happy to carry the torch for a lot of that. But we don't want to be the new Heroku. We want to be the way people build and deploy software, and ultimately the way people monetize software over time.Swyx [00:57:19]: It's still a big crown to be the new Heroku. There are 50 companies that fought for that.Jake [00:57:23]: Everybody is holding some portion of it. We're happy to support people and companies. The platform works differently. The game loop is similar, but we've been dogmatic about where these things are going: primitives, agents, fan-out. Some things fit; some workflows need to change. We have an approximation of Heroku pipelines with the environment system. It's exciting. We've got a ton of people we can support, and it's growing a lot.Temporal, Workflow Engines, and State MachinesSwyx [00:58:12]: I have one more technical question about Temporal. I've sold my shares. You're a power user and one of our earliest customers. I met you through Temporal. You built on Temporal. You have complaints. This may be the most neutral and informed conversation anyone will hear about Temporal without someone working at the company.Jake [00:58:39]: That's fair. I've used Temporal for almost 10 years because of Cadence at Uber.Swyx [00:58:52]: Give people a sense of what Cadence was at Uber.Jake [00:58:57]: Cadence was the precursor to Temporal. It powers trip actions, rides, when you rent a Jump bike or scooter or car. You're running workflows for a period of time and saying, “This ride will run indefinitely until it finishes.” You attach information: you paused in this zone, so add this charge to the bill. When you end the trip, the workflow is done. That experience was powered by Cadence at the time.Swyx [00:59:34]: I used to say it's like programming the entire user journey top-down as one function.Jake [00:59:39]: It's a powerful idea and important. It's also important for the next phase of the agentic journey. You want an agent to do a specific task, be complete or incomplete on that task, and move on to the next thing. You need a way to manage workflows dynamically.Jake [00:59:59]: Temporal was always great in theory, and great when you got it working the way you wanted in production. But it required you to model the entire journey in your head. If you didn't, you could cause issues where replaying the state of the workflow causes non-determinism.Swyx [01:00:25]: Because it works on deterministic workflow history.Jake [01:00:28]: Exactly. I describe it as a jet engine. If you know how to operate it and run it, it's great. But you can't hand it to people trying to build complicated things if they don't have the whole state in their head.Jake [01:00:48]: We run our whole deployment pipeline on top of it. That's a reasonably complicated workflow: pre-commit hooks, signaling, queuing, and all the rest. We ran into the same thing at Uber. As you express a large workflow, it gets more complicated, with more states in the state machine that you have to map back to the workflow.Swyx [01:01:15]: It's a lot of ifs.Jake [01:01:16]: Exactly. At Uber, we built a system for doing the state machine and testing it. We've started to build some of those things here because it's grown heavily. It's not quite love-hate. When it works well, it works super well. But if someone who doesn't have full context puts something into the system that invalidates state or causes non-determinism, or spins off a ton of activities, you have to keep track of underlying SRE knobs like activity slots. Those should scale with memory, vCPU, and so on. It becomes a bear to scale.Swyx [01:02:10]: You need a capable sysadmin running things behind the scenes. If you moved off, what would you do?Jake [01:02:19]: We'd build our own workflow engine. We have a few internally that we've worked on.Swyx [01:02:27]: This is one of those classes of things you typically wouldn't vibe code, but I'm wondering if you can.Jake [01:02:33]: I still don't think you should vibe code it. You still want to run decent tests to make sure it works.Swyx [01:02:39]: Timo didn't invent that from scratch either. There are libraries you can run. On top of that, it's just a state machine that you have to map out. Ultimately, you define the instructions you want and run them through a state machine.Jake [01:03:00]: It's very doable. Workflow stuff is interesting. Restate is doing neat stuff here.Swyx [01:03:10]: You're tied into JavaScript. Are you a JavaScript maxi?Jake [01:03:13]: Internally, we have TypeScript, Rust, and Go. We don't add more languages. Actually, we have a little C because we write BPF code and hooks. But those are the languages.Swyx [01:03:28]: Is this for sidecars?Jake [01:03:32]: No. It's for the networking stack, volumes, and things like that. We use TypeScript a lot because it powers the dashboard, but we're moving a lot of workflow stuff off the dashboard stack and into the infrastructure stack.Railpack, Nixpacks, and Content-Addressable FilesystemsSwyx [01:04:00]: Cool. Any other technical infrastructure stuff? Railpacks?Jake [01:04:07]: We built an engine for determining dependencies based on source code. It's called Railpack. We built the first version, Nixpacks, on top of Nix, and then we moved.Swyx [01:04:17]: People have been trying to get me to adopt Nix and NixOS for four years. Is it ever going to be a thing?Jake [01:04:23]: I don't know. We're excited about it, but it has pain points. Think of it as a stack of versioned binaries at specific slices in time. If you want version X and version Y, you bloat the package space, which blows up image size and makes real-world workloads difficult.Swyx [01:04:53]: But you content-address it and cache it. In theory, there are optimizations.Jake [01:05:00]: In theory, yes. But with a large enough user base and disparate enough machines, you run into a problem Meta described in the XFAAS paper, their internal serverless system. It becomes difficult at scale unless you break out specific runtimes.Jake [01:05:24]: We didn't want to do that because we wanted to truly allow you to deploy anything. That was our initial thing with Nix. But we've moved toward interesting work around content-addressable file systems that can lazy-load anything from any point and page it into memory.Swyx [01:05:48]: Amazing.Jake [01:05:49]: The future is very bright. It's crazy, and it's going to be nuts.Coding Agent Spend, Roadmaps, and Token ROISwyx [01:05:54]: Founder journey stuff?Alessio [01:05:56]: Your cloud usage: you tweeted you're going to spend $300K this month?Jake [01:06:01]: I think we got to $200K.Alessio [01:06:02]: Coding agents?Jake [01:06:03]: Yeah.Swyx [01:06:04]: Across the company?Alessio [01:06:05]: You only have 35 people, so I'm sure they're not all spending $10K a month. What's the distribution?Jake [01:06:10]: I think I'm at about $25K. We have power users all the way down. We came back from winter break, and I basically said, “If you're writing code by hand, you're doing this wrong.” The tools are good enough now that you can move extremely quickly. There are issues and pain points, but you should be reviewing the code you are writing instead of writing it by hand.Jake [01:06:40]: Architectural patterns matter more now than ever, but you shouldn't spend your time generating code you would write. If you know how to write it, ask the agent to write it and reconcile it until it looks like you would have written it yourself.Jake [01:06:58]: People misconstrue my propensity to push people toward agents as connected to our growth and some reliability bumps. They're not necessarily related. The tools are good enough to move extremely quickly and build things way larger than you could before.Jake [01:07:19]: To the earlier point about cooling data centers in space: I don't know. But with software, you can ask, “How would I build block storage from scratch? How would I do these things?” I have ideas because I have history and have read papers. Let me work them out and build massive test benches with thousands of tests, because those are now free to author. If you're not using AI systems to speed-run your roadmap and reconcile your existing system onto the future, you're missing a large point of what's happening.Alessio [01:08:12]: What's the path to spending $3 million a month? Is it bound by ideas and things customers can absorb?Jake [01:08:19]: For most companies, it's bound by deployment at this point. That's why we've seen a massive boom in users and companies, from Fortune 50s down, asking how to get developers to move faster. You'll probably hit your CFO before any technical limits because they'll look at the eye-watering amount of money spent on tokens. Inference costs have to come down, but we're inference constrained now. There will be price discovery around what makes sense for an org to adopt.Jake [01:09:06]: I think you'll end up with the F1 driver concept. If someone is really adept at these things, it makes sense to put them in a $3 million car. If they're not, it probably doesn't make sense. You'll take a few people and say, “You can drive the F1 car. We need to go in this direction. Figure out if it works and prototype it.”Jake [01:09:33]: We've done some of that and vastly accelerated our roadmap. We thought we'd ship something in a few years; now we can probably ship it in a few months because we validated it and don't have to build it incrementally. We can skip steps and move toward our vision.Alessio [01:09:58]: A lot of people are realizing the roadmap doesn't always have a business impact, so they say tokens are too expensive. But if your roadmap were built to make more money by the time you built it, you'd have token pricing for it, the same way you do with sales. You'd spend a billion dollars on sales if you knew you would get $2 billion of revenue.Jake [01:10:19]: Exactly. A naive way to measure this is the percentage of tokens that end up in production. If you can measure impact because those tokens end up in production, that's awesome. But the burden of proof will rise. Internally, we have a growing number of pull requests that haven't merged. The question becomes: how do you get this into production? It's about how quickly you can build and deploy software, which is exciting because that's our whole thing.The SDLC Shift: Prompt Requests, Feature Flags, and Safe RolloutsSwyx [01:10:56]: The SDLC is changing. One thesis is that the pull request is dying. It's going to be the prompt request. Beyond that, code review is also kind of dying if you have all the other systems in place. What else is changing about the SDLC?Jake [01:11:19]: The AISRE and the tools to make it happen. AISRE is pie-in-the-sky aspirational. What does it take to get an AISRE? What tools do you need to build?Swyx [01:11:32]: You should expose your tooling to customers at some point. The Central Station command center.Jake [01:11:39]: We have it for template maintainers. Template maintainers can deploy and maintain templates, and they get feedback. We're going to expose those things incrementally.Swyx [01:11:51]: Clustering around incidents. Everyone has a version of that, but I don't think anyone has solved it.Jake [01:11:56]: I won't say we've solved it internally, but it's gotten so good that we can see incidents forming pretty quickly. At some point, those will be things either someone else builds or we build. We've always built things purpose-built for us. If it makes sense to make it useful for users, monetize it, or turn that loop into a profit center instead of a cost center, we want to do that.Jake [01:12:28]: Pull request is definitely dying.Swyx [01:12:29]: Do you do first-party feature flagging and incremental rollout stuff?Jake [01:12:34]: We have a feature-flagging engine we built internally and will eventually roll out.Swyx [01:12:38]: I don't see it as a user. How come you didn't give us what you have?Jake [01:12:43]: We have to beta test it. We care a lot about the quality of the things. There's plenty we've used internally that doesn't make it all the way through the journey because it fails. It works for one service but not multiple services. We'd have to build it for multiple services and know that if we released it, we'd rebuild it again and again. Some things are worth that, but many inform the roadmap.Jake [01:13:18]: We don't want to dilute the experience by saying, “This works, but only for this service,” unless it's a core initiative. Over the next few months, we'll roll out things that work for a single service, then multiple services, then multiple services across the environment. You have to be deliberate. Otherwise you create broken disparate experiences and support load because people ask how to use the feature.Jake [01:13:52]: It's the earlier expansion and compaction pattern. You expand the company to get features, then compact and smooth them out so the experience is stellar. You told me in the hallway, “It's gotten so much better.” Internally we're saying, “This part really sucks. We need to make it significantly better.”Swyx [01:14:11]: I can attest to that over the last three years watching you build Railway. For listeners, feature flagging is a huge part of Uber culture. So much so that they have too many feature flags and another thing to remove feature flags. Facebook has Gatekeeper. Agents are going to need this. It's fundamental to incremental rollouts. OpenAI acquired Statsig. GPT-5 is routing and flagging through different models.Jake [01:14:56]: It's super important. If the software development lifecycle is going to change because we're doing things 1,000 times faster and 1,000 times more concurrently, what becomes important at scale?Jake [01:15:16]: Before I started Railway, I built a feature-flagging product and tried to sell it. It was an easier version of LaunchDarkly. I ran into a problem: anyone small enough to adopt your technology doesn't care about feature flags, and anyone large enough to need feature flags needs so much scale that you have to build out all the infrastructure. I scrapped it.Jake [01:15:42]: But what is old is new again. Companies are trying to move quickly, but you can't YOLO a vibe-coded thing straight into production. You need to say, “Here's my blast radius, my impact, and I want to shadow it for these users.” Feature flags. You're going to need the tools larger companies built to maintain their structures. Everything gets compressed by 1,000x so everybody can build those structures quickly.Jake [01:16:07]: That's exactly where we are: compressing the software development lifecycle, then expanding it and adding more new things.Cattle, Pets, and Clonable InfrastructureSwyx [01:16:15]: Another term that comes to mind for newer developers is “cattle, not pets.” People treat production like a pet. It has a name. You baby it and keep it alive. With cattle, you can mass farm, roll out, portion parts out, and kill them.Jake [01:16:37]: I think that might change. You can move toward having pets as long as you have a cloning machine for your pets.Swyx [01:16:52]: Yeah.Jake [01:16:52]: If you can snapshot every single thing at every frame, it doesn't matter if something gets obliterated because you have a snapshot of it. The things we've built right now are designed to block changes from the hermetically sealed DevOps line. You have to write a Dockerfile because you nee

Carl Quintanilla, Jim Cramer and David Faber explored a tale of two tech sectors: Semiconductors extending their two-day slide after a red-hot run-up, while beaten-down software stocks move higher. Where should you put your money into the two groups? Hear what Intel CEO Lip-Bu Tan told Jim on "Mad Money" about AI and the demand for CPUs. The anchors also discussed treasury yields hitting multiyear highs on inflation jitters and the U.S. conflict with Iran. Also in focus: Home Depot's earnings beat, Elon Musk to appeal the OpenAI trial ruling, Anthropic vs. the Pentagon in court, Google-Blackstone AI venture, Meta layoffs watch.   Squawk on the Street Disclaimer Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What happens when an Air Force engineer with experience in intelligence, venture capital, and deep tech startups starts applying quantum-inspired computing to some of the hardest problems in aerospace and defense? In this episode of Tech Talks Daily, I sat down with Nathan Mason, VP of Strategic Growth at BQP, to unpack how quantum-inspired software is already helping organizations solve massive computational challenges without waiting years for fully mature quantum hardware. Nathan shared his fascinating career journey from military service after 9/11 through the intelligence community, business school, venture investing, and ultimately into the world of advanced simulation and optimization. He emphasized how data-driven thinking shaped his approach to high-stakes decision making and why gut instinct alone no longer suffices in an era driven by AI, complex systems, and operational risk. His insights provide valuable guidance for those interested in careers at the intersection of tech and aerospace. We also explored a question many business leaders are asking right now: what does "quantum in practice" actually look like today? Nathan explained how BQP is applying quantum-inspired approaches on existing CPUs and GPUs to improve simulation accuracy, accelerate modeling workloads, and help aerospace organizations make faster, smarter engineering decisions without simply throwing more hardware at the problem. This shows the tangible progress already happening, inspiring the audience with real-world impact. The discussion also tackled the commercial realities behind deep tech innovation. Nathan spoke candidly about the funding challenges facing startups working in quantum and defense technologies, emphasizing that moving beyond theory into operational deployment is difficult but achievable. This perspective encourages the audience to see obstacles as opportunities for innovation and persistence. Toward the end of the episode, Nathan shared thoughtful advice for students, engineers, and professionals looking to build careers in AI, aerospace, quantum, and defense. His message was simple but powerful: stay curious, keep learning, and never underestimate how a single conversation can completely change your career trajectory. If you've ever wondered how quantum computing moves from science fiction headlines into real-world business value, this episode offers a practical and honest perspective on how quantum-inspired software is already making a difference in aerospace and defense industries today. Useful Links Connect with Nathan Mason on LinkedIn Learn More about BQP Please check the partners of the Tech Tech Talks Network Learn more about the NordLayer Browser Visit Denodo.com

Join KJ Burke, as he dives into the key highlights from NVIDIA's GTC 2026 conference. Discover the latest in AI advancements, robotics, space computing and enterprise strategies shaping the future of technology. To learn more, visit cdw.ca Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Ben Bajarin and Jay Goldberg dive deep into the rapidly shifting landscape of semiconductor supply chains and the unexpected "CPU renaissance" driven by agentic AI. The duo explores the "ultimate constraint" currently bottlenecking the industry, breaks down the latest earnings from ARM and AMD, and analyzes why the "Neo Cloud" players might be facing a massive strategic deficit.Key Discussion Points:The Anhydrous Hydrogen Bromine Crisis: Jay reveals the "ultimate shortage" involving a rare gas essential for EUV lithography and memory production, involving a geopolitical tangle of Japanese refining and Israeli raw materials.+4The Death of the CPU-to-GPU Ratio: Why the industry is moving away from simple hardware ratios and toward rack-level topology and workload-specific modeling.+4ARM & AMD's "Agentic" Surge: Insights into how the need to execute AI-generated code is driving massive demand for high-core-count CPUs, far exceeding previous estimates.+4Optical Networking Timing: A reality check on the "hockey stick" growth for optical interconnects, which is projected to truly inflect around 2028.+1The Neo Cloud Challenge: A critical look at CoreWeave, Nebius, and Iron, focusing on their massive CPU-install-base deficit compared to hyperscalers.+2Breaking News: Late-session discussion on the rumored foundry deal between Intel and Apple.+1

Patrick Moorhead and Daniel Newman dig into the week's biggest moves in enterprise AI: Anthropic and OpenAI launching PE-backed enterprise JVs on the same day, Anthropic filling its compute gap with SpaceX's Colossus, Cerebris filing for a $3.5 billion IPO, NVIDIA going deep on co-packaged optics with Corning, and a full IBM Think and ServiceNow recap. Plus, for The Flip, hosts debate whether Anthropic, at $1.2 trillion, is the most important company in enterprise tech. The handpicked topics for this week are: 1. Anthropic and OpenAI Launch PE-Backed Enterprise JVs on the Same Day — Both companies announced private equity joint ventures, with OpenAI backed by Bain, Brookfield, and Advent, and Anthropic partnering with Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Apollo, and General Atlantic. Daniel's read is that this is fundamentally a distribution play, using private equity portfolio companies as a deployment channel for AI at scale. Pat sees it as the clearest admission yet that enterprise AI cannot be self-implemented at scale without specialized consulting support, and flags that mid-tier systems integrators (SIs) could get cut out of the middle. (The Decode) 2. Anthropic Signs Massive Compute Deal with SpaceX Colossus — Anthropic urgently needed compute and SpaceX had 300 megawatts and 220,000 GPUs sitting at Colossus One in Memphis without enough business to fill them. Pat's take is blunt: this move is pragmatic. Anthropic needs it, xAI has it. Daniel adds that Dario himself said they planned for 10x growth and got 80x, and this deal is the fast backfill that reality demanded. The side note both hosts flag: Anthropic is running on H100s, H200s, and B200s, which puts the whole "Anthropic only runs on Trainium and TPUs" narrative to rest. (The Decode) 3. Cerebris Files for a $3.5 Billion IPO at $26.6 Billion Valuation — This marks their second attempt at an IPO after pulling the first filing. The architecture is genuinely unique, a complete wafer with massive on-chip SRAM and interconnects built directly onto the wafer rather than copper or photonics. Pat calls it the first credible Western alternative for AI inference. Daniel's framing cuts through: you do not have to beat NVIDIA to sell right now. You just need to have availability. The more interesting headline, both hosts agree, is that Sam Altman and Greg Brockman are angel investors, which adds fuel to the ongoing OpenAI lawsuit. (The Decode) 4. NVIDIA and Corning Announce $500 Million Optical Partnership — Three new US factories, co-packaged optics for Vera Rubin, and a supply chain strategy that mirrors what NVIDIA did with Coherent. Pat's context: this is vertical integration through investment rather than acquisition. Daniel's observation is that the pace of movement toward co-packaged optics is accelerating faster than anyone expected, and his "rule of and" applies here too. Copper is not going away. Optics are being added on top because the data volumes moving across these racks are outrunning what copper alone can handle. US manufacturing in North Carolina and Texas is a strategic bonus. (The Decode) 5. IBM Think 2026: Day Zero, Sovereign Core, and the Quantum Plus AI Bet — Pat moderated on stage with CEO Arvind Krishna and calls this IBM's best showing in five years. Arvind opened with the AI divide, the gap between companies still running POCs and companies already in production, and framed where IBM sits as day zero, not because nothing has happened, but because enterprise AI deployment at scale is still so early. Daniel's biggest takeaways: watsonX Orchestrate updates, Sovereign Core going GA with policy at runtime, and the Confluent acquisition potentially being IBM's most important asset since Red Hat, given that 40% of Fortune 500 companies run on it and real-time streaming data is foundational to agentic systems. Both hosts land on quantum plus AI as IBM's next inflection moment. (The Decode) 6. ServiceNow Knowledge 2026: Enterprise SaaS 2.0 is Emerging — Daniel got there on day three of the event and noted the conference was densely packed. His observation: enterprises have not gotten the memo from Wall Street that SaaS is supposedly dead. His emerging thesis is that middleware could make a comeback for AI, with companies needing a layer that lets agents work across any infrastructure, any app, and within the rules of their specific business. Pat agrees and adds that the growth question is about mix, not survival. (The Decode) 7. The Flip: Is Anthropic at $1.2 Trillion the Most Important Company in Enterprise Tech? — Daniel took the affirmative citing that Claude Code is deeply entrenched in developer workflows. Anthropic went from $9 billion to $45 billion ARR in months. Every major hyperscaler is both a customer and an investor. The PE JVs are turning verticals into Anthropic engines. Dario said they planned for 10x and got 80x. Pat's counter: the enterprise trust gap is real after what Anthropic pulled on pricing and performance. Microsoft has 2 billion users across 365, Azure, and Copilot. NVIDIA is the infrastructure Anthropic runs on. And workforce replacement, which is how Anthropic extracts its terminal value, is not arriving as fast as the valuation suggests. In reality, both hosts admit their notes looked almost identical. (The Flip) 8. AMD — Lisa Su guided AI data center growth up from 60% to 80%. With OpEx growing 83%, net income up 95%, free cash flow ripping, and CPUs growing at nearly 40% without price increases, Pat reads this as unit market share gains coming soon. Daniel's framing: AMD is now a two-headed juggernaut with CPUs and GPUs for the data center. And Helios has not even started shipping yet. Both hosts take a victory lap for previously calling this one. (Bulls and Bears) 9. Palantir — Triple beat on revenue, EPS, and forward guidance. Rule of 40 at 145%. Government revenue up 84%, 47 deals over $10 million, and the largest guidance raise in the company's history. Daniel's take: Palantir is redefining the category entirely. It's not a software company in the Salesforce or ServiceNow sense. It's technology, plus ontology, plus people, deployed at the deepest layers inside governments and enterprises. Pat adds that the four deployed FTE model lets them stand up AIP POCs within a week, which is why they are winning business at this pace. (Bulls and Bears) 10. ARM — AGI processor demand doubled from $1 billion to $2 billion within 45 days. Record revenue, strong pipeline, royalty growth at 21% for the full year. The stock ripped after hours, then sold the next day when management confirmed only enough supply for $1 billion of that $2 billion demand. Pat's read: 50% CPU market share with hyperscalers at the core level is the most underdiscussed signal on the call. Daniel adds that the worry about ARM competing with its own customer base in custom silicon has been quietly swept away by the sheer volume of compute demand. (Bulls and Bears) 11. Supermicro — A board member allegedly used a hairdryer to remove labels from GPU boxes being shipped to China. Approximately 20% of their revenue has reportedly been illegally shipped to China. They beat on EPS and Q4 guide but missed Q3 revenue versus consensus. Stock still ripped 18%. Daniel's take: if you are selling picks and shovels during a gold rush and you are this messed up, he cannot imagine owning it with the overhang that is building. (Bulls and Bears) 12. Lattice Semi and Coherent — Lattice revenue up 42%, back into growth, guiding to 50% year-on-year at midpoint. The AMI acquisition at $1.65 billion doubles their serviceable market from $6 billion to $12 billion and puts them inside every AI server on the planet at the BIOS and platform firmware layer. Pat calls the timing right: core financials crushing it, time to make a move. Coherent printed 21% year-on-year growth, 55% EPS growth, margins expanding, debt coming down, entered the S&P 500, and sits at the center of the co-packaged optics trend that is accelerating. Pat's choke point note: Indium phosphide capacity is the constraint. Six-inch fabs are doubling capacity in 2026, a quarter ahead of plan, and competitors are still ramping their transitions. (Bulls and Bears) Want the full breakdown from IBM Think and ServiceNow Knowledge, and check out our on-the-ground coverage linked in the show notes. Be part of our community. Hit that subscribe button and let us know what you want us to cover next week in the comments. Intro Pat on Stage at IBM Think https://x.com/PatrickMoorhead/status/2051381046537601101?s=20 The Decode OpenAI and Anthropic Both Launch PE-Backed Enterprise Services JVs on the Same Day — The Palantir FDE Model Goes Mainstream https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-04/openai-finalizes-10-billion-joint-venture-with-pe-firms-to-deploy-ai https://techcrunch.com/2026/05/04/anthropic-and-openai-are-both-launching-joint-ventures-for-enterprise-ai-services/ https://www.semafor.com/article/05/04/2026/openai-anthropic-ramp-up-enterprise-push Anthropic and SpaceX Sign Massive Compute Deal — Full 300MW / 220,000 GPU Colossus 1 Memphis Data Center Plus Exploration of Multi-Gigawatt Orbital AI Compute https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/06/anthropic-spacex-data-center-capacity.html https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-06/anthropic-inks-computing-deal-with-spacex-to-meet-ai-demand https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/musks-spacex-has-rented-out-access-to-its-supercomputers-220-000-nvidia-gpus-and-300-megawatts-of-ai-compute-power-to-rival-anthropic Cerebras Files for $3.5B IPO at $26.6B Valuation — The First Major AI Chip IPO of 2026 https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/04/cerebras-ipo-ai-chipmaker.html https://theaiinsider.tech/2026/05/06/cerebras-systems-eyes-3-5b-in-largest-tech-ipo-of-2026-on-strength-of-ai-chip-demand/ https://www.briefs.co/news/ai-chipmaker-cerebras-just-filed-for-a-3-5-billion-ipo/ NVIDIA and Corning Announce Game-Changing Optical Partnership — $500M Investment, 3 New U.S. Factories, and Co-Packaged Optics for Vera Rubin and Beyond https://www.corning.com/worldwide/en/about-us/news-events/news-releases/2026/05/nvidia-and-corning-announce-long-term-partnership-to-strengthen-us-manufacturing-for-ai-infrastructure.html https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/06/nvidia-corning-optical-factories-nc-texas-ai.html https://www.wsj.com/tech/nvidia-corning-form-partnership-to-expand-fiber-optic-manufacturing-17f525de https://kfgo.com/2026/05/06/corning-partners-with-nvidia-to-expand-us-fiber-optic-output-for-ai-growth/ IBM Think 2026 Boston — Watsonx Orchestrate Next-Gen, Confluent Real-Time Data, IBM Concert, and Sovereign Core Define IBM's Agentic Operating Model https://newsroom.ibm.com/2026-05-05-think-2026-ibm-delivers-the-blueprint-for-the-ai-operating-model-as-the-ai-divide-widens https://www.ibm.com/new/announcements/ibm-announcements-at-think-2026 https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX42DlrglOs/ ServiceNow Knowledge 2026 Las Vegas https://www.servicenow.com/events/knowledge.html https://newsroom.servicenow.com/press-releases/details/2026/Cohesity-and-ServiceNow-Deliver-Real-Time-Recovery-for-Enterprise-AI-Agents/default.aspx https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/04/nvidia-backed-cohesity-eyes-2026-ipo-with-valuation-rivaling-17-billion-rubrik.html   The Flip: Anthropic at $1.2T Now the Most Important Company in Enterprise Tech — More Important Than NVIDIA, Microsoft, or OpenAI FOR: Dual-hyperscaler compute anchor (Amazon $33B + Google $40B = $73B) is structural — unmatched https://futurumgroup.com/insights/anthropics-gigawatt-scale-tpu-deal-with-broadcom-creates-a-structural-advantage/ Constitutional AI safety positioning wins regulated industries https://www.anthropic.com/news/anthropic-nec-japan-ai-engineering-workforce $900B valuation surpasses OpenAI ($852B) at faster revenue growth and lower burn rate https://techcrunch.com/2026/04/30/anthropic-potential-900b-valuation-round-could-happen-within-two-weeks/   AGAINST: NVIDIA still controls the substrate — every Anthropic dollar of revenue requires NVIDIA inference at some layer https://www.cnbc.com/2026/04/27/nvidia-just-hit-an-all-time-high-why-some-think-a-rally-is-just-getting-started.html Microsoft has the enterprise distribution — 365 + Azure + Copilot reach >2 billion users https://www.marketbeat.com/originals/microsofts-maia-200-the-profit-engine-ai-needs/ $900B valuation is venture marketing — the IPO will reset the number https://www.semafor.com/article/05/04/2026/openai-anthropic-ramp-up-enterprise-push   Bulls & Bears: AMD Q1 2026 — Revenue $10.3B (+38% YoY), MI300X Data Center GPU Demand Drives Stock +20% on the Print https://ir.amd.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1284/amd-reports-first-quarter-2026-financial-results https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/05/amd-q1-2026-earnings-report.html https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/amd-q1-2026-earnings-revenue-203331768.html Palantir Q1 2026 — Revenue +85% YoY, US Commercial +133%, Rule of 40 Score Hits 145%; Largest Guidance Raise in Company History https://investors.palantir.com/files/Palantir%20-%20Q1%202026%20Business%20Update.pdf https://www.reddit.com/r/PLTR/comments/1t3t0me/palantir_reports_q1_2026_us_revenue_growth_of_104/ https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/palantir-technologies-inc-q1-2026-002218719.html https://semiconalpha.substack.com/p/palantir-q1-2026-rewriting-the-rule Arm Holdings Q4 FY2026 — Record $1.49B Quarter, Full-Year Revenue Crosses $4.92B, $2B AGI CPU Pipeline; Stock +16% After Hours https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/stocks/articles/arm-q4-earnings-call-highlights-225942093.html https://www.stocktitan.net/sec-filings/ARM/6-k-arm-holdings-plc-uk-current-report-foreign-issuer-7e9ca9ac7dda.html https://semiconalpha.substack.com/p/arm-q4-fy2026-record-quarter-2-billion Super Micro Computer Q3 FY2026 — Revenue $10.2B (+123% YoY), Strong Q4 Guide; Stock +18% AH on First Earnings Call Since Co-Founder Indictment Drama https://www.cnbc.com/2026/05/05/super-micro-smci-q3-earnings-report-2026.html https://www.stocktitan.net/sec-filings/SMCI/8-k-super-micro-computer-inc-reports-material-event-e70b2f8b3cb7.html https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX42DlrglOs/ Lattice Semiconductor Q1 2026 — Beat-and-Raise Quarter ($170.9M, +42% YoY) Paired With $1.65B AMI Acquisition That Doubles Lattice's SAM to $12B https://www.stocktitan.net/sec-filings/LSCC/8-k-lattice-semiconductor-corp-reports-material-event-642a862b2bf9.html https://www.ami.com/resources/ami-announces-agreement-to-be-acquired-by-lattice-semiconductor/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/patmoorhead_lattice-semiconductor-posts-beat-and-raise-activity-7457411226944425984-xA8T Coherent Q3 2026 Earnings https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/coherent-cohr-tops-revenue-expectations-in-q3-as-ai-demand-accelerates-shares-decline/ar-AA22Bz24?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds  

AMD (AMD) shares hit record highs after a strong earnings beat driven by data center demand. Ben Bajarin and Matt Bryson discuss the resurgence of CPUs in AI workloads and how AMD's integrated CPU‑GPU strategy positions it against Nvidia (NVDA) and Intel (INTC) in a fast‑growing market.======== Schwab Network ========Options involve risks and are not suitable for all investors. Before trading, read the Options Disclosure Document. http://bit.ly/2v9tH6DEmpowering every investor and trader, every market day.Options involve risks and are not suitable for all investors. Before trading, read the Options Disclosure Document. http://bit.ly/2v9tH6DSubscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/ About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

Creative Strategies CEO Ben Bajarin joins TITV Host Akash Pasricha to discuss AMD's 38% revenue jump and why the agentic AI shift is creating a "share grabbing" environment for CPUs. We also talk with The Information's Sri Muppidi and Erin Woo about Anthropic's massive $200 billion commitment to Google Cloud and whether the AI boom is fueled by circular financing. Rocket Drew provides an update from the Elon Musk v. OpenAI trial on Greg Brockman's testimony, and we get into the $60 million funding round for Tessera Labs with CEO Kabir Nagrecha. Finally, we close with subscriber data on the tightening chatbot race between ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini.Articles discussed on this episode: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/anthropic-commits-spending-200-billion-googles-cloud-chipsSubscribe: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theinformation The Information: https://www.theinformation.com/subscribe_hSign up for the AI Agenda newsletter: https://www.theinformation.com/features/ai-agendaTITV airs weekdays on YouTube, X and LinkedIn at 10AM PT / 1PM ET. Or check us out wherever you get your podcasts.Follow us:X: https://x.com/theinformationIG: https://www.instagram.com/theinformation/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@titv.theinformationLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/theinformation/00:00 — 01:13 Introduction 01:14 — 11:05 AMD Revenue Rises 38% in Q1 11:06 — 18:41 Anthropic to Spend $200B on Google's Cloud and Chips 18:42 — 22:18 Musk Trial: OpenAI President Testifies 22:19 — 29:48 Tessera Labs Raises $60M in Funding 29:49 — 31:23 Three-Way AI Chatbot Race Emerges 

Our Head of Europe and Asia Technology Research Shawn Kim discusses AI's move from passive chatbots to active agents—and how this influences tech supply chains.Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.----- Transcript -----Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Shawn Kim, Head of Morgan Stanley's Europe and Asia Technology Team. Today: A foundational shift in the development of AI and its broad market implications. It's Tuesday, May 5th, at 3pm in London. Think about the last time you asked a chatbot to write a summary or a draft. Or maybe answer a query. It was probably useful. But you were also still driving the interaction: asking, refining, copying, checking, and moving the work forward. Now imagine a system that does not just respond, but acts. It remembers what you asked last week, understands your preferences, works across digital tools, plans a workflow, and adapts as circumstances change. That is the shift from GenAI to agentic AI: from AI that helps with thinking to AI that helps with doing. GenAI is mostly passive. It takes a prompt and produces an answer. Agentic AI is active – less a copilot for one task but an autopilot for multi-step workflows. The distinction is key because computing requirements are changing. In GenAI, large language models and GPUs handle much of the thinking. GPUs, or graphics processing units, process many calculations in parallel, making them central to modern AI models. In agentic AI, CPU becomes more important. CPUs, or central processing units, coordinate tasks and connect systems to the broader digital infrastructure. Agentic AI also depends on three stacks: the brain, or the large language model; orchestration, where the CPU manages the doing; and knowledge, which is memory.Memory may be the most important layer. An agent that knows your preferences, documents, tone, and task history becomes more useful over time. That creates a context flywheel. The more context it collects, the more personalized it becomes, and the harder it is to leave. Typically, in computing, we think of memory as storage, mainly. We need to rethink this. Memory is also continuity. When an AI system can use past experiences, memory becomes a long-term state, shared knowledge, and behavioral grounding. And that matters because LLMs have fixed context windows. Once a conversation exceeds that window, older content falls off. For simple questions, that may be fine. But for a coding agent working across a large codebase over days or weeks, it is a major limitation. Serious work requires persistent memory, short-term orientation, and active retrieval – remembering prior decisions, understanding changed files, and finding relevant codes without the user pointing to every dependency. For investors, the implication is clear – agentic AI changes the bottlenecks. We see CPUs as the new bottleneck, with memory seeing the highest content increase. We estimate as much as 60 percent, or $60 billion of incremental CPU total addressable market by 2030, within a total CPU market of more than $100 billion. We also estimate up to 70 percent of incremental DRAM bit shipment tied to this theme. That makes us more positive on supply chains including memory, foundry, substrates, CPU and memory interface, and capacitors and CPU sockets. These areas benefit from content growth, pricing power, and capacity constraints into 2027. As AI moves from answering questions to taking actions, investors should watch the infrastructure behind the shift. Because in the agentic era, the next big AI leap may be less about the prompt, but more about the processor. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the show, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share Thoughts on the Market with a friend or colleague today.

Intel is making BANK on their stocks, but still not getting respect on their CPUs, GALAX is shutting down (mostly), Microsoft is trying REALLY hard now, does ASUS have the 12vhpwr cabling answer?, and patch your damn cPanel right now.  Plus cool gaming tidbits and more on that router ban.  Enjoy all that and even slightly more!0:00 Intro0:39 Patreon2:18 Food with Josh3:55 Intel stock hits record high12:06 Microsoft feels enough pressure to fix Update16:29 GALAX shuts down19:11 Portable hotspots face US ban just like routers22:44 57 Right to Repair bills in 27 states26:25 NES or Acemagic Retro X5 AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 Mini PC?30:40 Fractal Pop 2 Vision33:49 Some discussion of the ROG Equalizer40:37 We look at a 2080Ti Super eBay listing here42:24 (In)Security Corner49:03 Gaming Quick Hits59:47 Picks of the Week1:07:39 Outro ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

In this week’s news and earnings episode, Simon and Dan break down the Bank of Canada’s latest rate decision and what it signals for inflation, oil prices, and the Canadian economy. They also dive into the newly announced Canada Strong Fund, Canada’s proposed sovereign wealth fund, and discuss whether it’s smart policy or political branding. The guys also cover Shell’s blockbuster acquisition of ARC Resources, what it means for Canada’s natural gas sector, and why global capital may be starting to view Canada more favorably again. On the earnings side, they discuss Celestica’s AI-fueled growth, Intel’s surprising turnaround, and why demand for CPUs is rising again in the age of AI inference. Finally, they touch on TD’s sudden reversal on Canadian telecom ratings and what it says about sell-side analyst targets. Tickers of Stocks Discussed: CLS, INTC, SHEL, ARX, BCE, T, RCI.B, TU Subscribe to Our New Youtube Channel! Check out our portfolio by going to Jointci.com Our Website Canadian Investor Podcast Network Twitter: @cdn_investing Simon’s twitter: @Fiat_Iceberg Braden’s twitter: @BradoCapital Dan’s Twitter: @stocktrades_ca Want to learn more about Real Estate Investing? Check out the Canadian Real Estate Investor Podcast! Apple Podcast - The Canadian Real Estate Investor Spotify - The Canadian Real Estate Investor Web player - The Canadian Real Estate Investor Asset Allocation ETFs | BMO Global Asset Management Sign up for Fiscal.ai for free to get easy access to global stock coverage and powerful AI investing tools. Register for EQ Bank, the seamless digital banking experience with better rates and no nonsense.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Stephen Sopko believes Intel (INTC) is in a unique position as earnings surge and grabs new partnerships in Big Tech firms like Tesla (TSLA). The question: has Friday's rally run too hot? Stephen says Intel's foundational improvements are plus but has questions around the future of CPUs in an agentic AI landscape. ======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Options involve risks and are not suitable for all investors. Before trading, read the Options Disclosure Document. http://bit.ly/2v9tH6DSubscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

SUMMARY DEL SHOW Futuros mixtos. $DOW levemente abajo, $SPX apenas en verde y $NASDAQ lidera. El riesgo sigue siendo Irán y Ormuz, y el crudo vuelve a repuntar con el mensaje más duro de Trump. $INTC se dispara por señales de demanda de CPUs ligada a IA e inferencia. La propia empresa advierte que parte del impulso fue one time, así que el mercado ahora mira sostenibilidad. $TSLA dice que Cybercab ya entró en producción con ramp lento. California avanza un bill para prohibir redes sociales a menores de 16, elevando presión sobre $META y $SNAP.

En el episodio de hoy de VG Daily, Valentina Orduz y Juan Manuel de los Reyes analizan la extensión del alto al fuego entre Israel y el Líbano acordada por tres semanas adicionales, en un contexto donde el cese de hostilidades sigue siendo extremadamente frágil y ambas partes continuaron intercambiando fuego horas después del anuncio. En el bloque corporativo, American Airlines reportó ingresos récord para el primer trimestre pese a registrar pérdida neta y enfrentar costos de combustible significativamente elevados con una guía anual recortada; American Express entregó crecimiento de doble dígito en ingresos y utilidad neta, impulsado por el segmento de tarjetas premium. Por ultimo, Intel sorprendió con ingresos y ganancias muy por encima de las estimaciones, liderado por su división de centros de datos y la creciente demanda de CPUs para inteligencia artificial, marcando su sexto trimestre consecutivo superando expectativas.

En el Radar Empresarial de hoy ponemos el foco en Intel, que ha presentado unos resultados mejores de lo esperado y ha reaccionado con fuerza en el mercado fuera de hora, llegando a subir cerca de un 20%. Tanto inversores como analistas han recibido positivamente las cifras, especialmente unos ingresos que aumentan un 7% interanual y un beneficio por acción de 29 centavos, muy por encima del centavo que anticipaba el consenso. También han gustado las previsiones para el próximo trimestre, donde la compañía estima ingresos de entre 13.800 y 14.800 millones de dólares y ganancias por acción de 20 centavos, superando claramente las expectativas del mercado. Otro de los factores clave detrás de esta reacción positiva es el comportamiento del negocio de centros de datos, que crece un 22% en el trimestre y supera los 5.000 millones de dólares. Este segmento se está convirtiendo en uno de los motores principales de crecimiento para la compañía. Su CEO, Lip-Bu Tan, ha señalado que estos resultados reflejan un avance sostenido en todas las áreas del negocio, consolidando la percepción de que la empresa está en una fase de recuperación y transformación. Desde la llegada de Tan, el cambio en Intel ha sido notable. La compañía ha pasado de estar en un segundo plano dentro del sector tecnológico a posicionarse como un actor relevante en el desarrollo de la inteligencia artificial. Este giro también se ha visto reflejado en bolsa, con subidas acumuladas superiores al 80% en lo que va de año y un fuerte repunte durante 2025. Además, ha cerrado acuerdos estratégicos como el alcanzado con Nvidia, que contempla una inversión de 5.000 millones de dólares para integrar CPUs y GPUs en soluciones de alto rendimiento. También destaca la entrada del Gobierno de Estados Unidos en el capital de la empresa con cerca de un 10%. En paralelo, Intel ha apostado por reforzar su capacidad industrial y competir con más fuerza en el ámbito de la inteligencia artificial mediante operaciones relevantes. Entre ellas, la recompra del 49% de su planta Fab34 en Irlanda por más de 14.000 millones de dólares, una participación que había vendido previamente. A pesar del entusiasmo del mercado, no todo ha sido positivo: la compañía ha registrado pérdidas superiores a los 4.000 millones de dólares, muy por encima de las del año anterior. Sin embargo, por ahora, estas cifras no parecen preocupar a Wall Street, que se centra más en las perspectivas de crecimiento futuro.

This is my second conversation with Dylan Patel. Dylan is the founder and CEO of SemiAnalysis, where he tracks the semiconductor supply chain and AI infrastructure buildout. This conversation is about the supply and demand of tokens. On demand, Dylan describes something completely explosive. He explains why the frontier model is the only model anyone wants, and willingness to pay for it is nearly unbounded. His own firm has gone from tens of thousands of dollars in AI spend last year to seven million this year. On supply, we walk through the bottlenecks across memory, logic, and fab equipment that will determine how fast any of this can scale. We also cover Claude Mythos and what the leading labs need to do to fix their growing public perception problem. For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.  ----- Become a Colossus member to get our quarterly print magazine and private audio experience, including exclusive profiles and early access to select episodes. Subscribe at ⁠colossus.com/subscribe⁠. ----- ⁠Ramp's⁠ mission is to help companies manage their spend in a way that reduces expenses and frees up time for teams to work on more valuable projects. Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ramp.com/invest⁠⁠ to sign up for free and get a $250 welcome bonus. ----- Trusted by thousands of businesses, ⁠Vanta⁠ continuously monitors your security posture and streamlines audits so you can win enterprise deals and build customer trust without the traditional overhead. Visit ⁠vanta.com/invest⁠.  ----- WorkOS is the infrastructure B2B and AI-native companies use to sell to enterprise. It covers everything enterprise security requires: SSO, SCIM, RBAC, Audit Logs, AI governance, and more. Trusted by 2,000+ fast-growing companies, including OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, and Vercel. ----- Rogo is the AI platform for finance. They're building agents for Wall Street that are trained to understand how bankers and investors actually do work: from diligence and modeling, to turning analysis into deliverables. To learn more, visit rogo.ai/invest. ----- ⁠Ridgeline⁠ has built a complete, real-time, modern operating system for investment managers. It handles trading, portfolio management, compliance, customer reporting, and much more through an all-in-one real-time cloud platform. Visit⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ridgelineapps.com⁠. ----- Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠). Timestamps: (00:00:00) Welcome to Invest Like The Best (00:02:29) Intro: Dylan Patel (00:03:09) Semi Analysis AI Spend: Zero to $7M (00:05:16) Real-World Examples of Claude Code (00:11:41) Token Demand: “Completely Explosive” (00:14:48) Why Everyone Wants the Frontier Model (00:15:36) Mythos: Biggest Model Capability Jump in Two Years (00:20:54) Fear of Rapid Model Progress (00:23:45) Robotics as the Next Demand Wave (00:26:03) Scaling Laws & Compute Efficiency (00:27:24) OpenAI vs. Anthropic (00:31:33) Supply Side: Bottlenecks Across the Stack (00:33:26) TSMC CapEx Could Cause a Shortage (00:36:45) CPUs, ASICs, and FPGAs (00:40:12) Tokenomics (00:42:20) Protests & AI Backlash

A inteligência artificial ainda está longe de ser acessível para todo mundo. No episódio desta quinta-feira (23) do Podcast Canaltech, a gente discute como a Intel pretende mudar esse cenário ao levar recursos de IA para computadores mais baratos. Para explicar essa estratégia, conversamos com Marcelo Bertolami, diretor de parcerias em tecnologia para a América Latina na Intel. Ele detalha a proposta da nova linha de processadores Wildcat Lake, criada para democratizar os chamados “AI PCs”, equilibrando desempenho, eficiência energética e custo. Durante o papo, Bertolami também analisa o momento atual do mercado e aponta uma mudança importante no papel dos processadores com a evolução da inteligência artificial, especialmente com a chegada da IA agêntica, que pode aumentar significativamente a demanda por CPUs nos próximos anos. Você também vai conferir: Xbox Game Pass fica mais barato no Brasil; iPhone 18 com retrocesso em especificações; Samsung pode ter 3 óculos inteligentes a caminho. Este podcast foi roteirizado e apresentado por Marcelo Fischer e contou com reportagens de Gabriel Cavalheiro, Vinícius Moschen e André Leonardo, sob coordenação de Anaísa Catucci. A trilha sonora é de Guilherme Zomer, a edição de Leandro Gomes e a arte da capa é de Erick Teixeira.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In June 1994, Intel and Hewlett-Packard - two of Silicon Valley's largest and most powerful companies - announced an alliance. From the union of these two giants, will spring forth the next generation of CPUs. The Great Successor. Chosen to unify two architectures under one umbrella. It was named Itanium and by 2002 Intel had spent $5 billion on it. In today's video, we trace one of Intel's most ambitious products.

In June 1994, Intel and Hewlett-Packard - two of Silicon Valley's largest and most powerful companies - announced an alliance. From the union of these two giants, will spring forth the next generation of CPUs. The Great Successor. Chosen to unify two architectures under one umbrella. It was named Itanium and by 2002 Intel had spent $5 billion on it. In today's video, we trace one of Intel's most ambitious products.

PCE and inflation trends – single day concern Earnings Season – Goldman, JPM Eco Reports of historic proportion Feds looking at Private Credit holdings at banks PLUS we are now on Spotify and Amazon Music/Podcasts! Click HERE for Show Notes and Links DHUnplugged is now streaming live - with listener chat. Click on link on the right sidebar. Love the Show? Then how about a Donation? Follow John C. Dvorak on Twitter Follow Andrew Horowitz on Twitter Warm-Up - Walking back - Waffling and Extensions --- Blockade - not really - Market Immunity - Jesus.ai - Reading Retreats (The New Silent Disco?) Markets - PCE and inflation trends - single day concern - PPI revised - Earnings Season - Goldman, JPM - Historic Eco Report - Feds looking at Private Credit holdings at banks CONGRATS RORY! - back-to-Back Masters Champ - Over $250M in tour winnings Market Update - Great week for markets as Operation obliteration is postponed - - Weekend concerns and opening in the RED Monday as we get clarification - Markets somewhat immune? Looking past? - FWIW: Not much is moving thought the Straight....But who cares! ----- Markets made back all of the losses from the War! Nothing to worry about... Historic! - As of this month, we have officially hit a new historical floor. - The preliminary University of Michigan Consumer Sentiment reading for April 2026 came in at 47.6, which is the lowest recorded value in the survey's 70-plus-year history. Consumer Sentiment Fed Looking - The Federal Reserve is asking major US banks for details about their exposure to private credit due to a surge in redemptions and a rise in troubled loans in the industry. - The Fed's queries are intended to assess the level of stress in the private credit industry and the potential for it to spill over to the wider financial system. - The Treasury Department is also questioning the insurance industry about exposures to private credit, as part of a broader regulatory push to get a handle on the scale of the strains in the $1.8 trillion private credit industry. ECO - PPI - PPI: Rose 0.5% month-over-month in March, well below the 1.2% consensus expectation -  Follows a downwardly revised 0.5% increase in February (from 0.7%) Core PPI (excluding food and energy): - Increased 0.1% in March, below the 0.4% consensus expectation - Follows a downwardly revised 0.3% increase in February (from 0.5%) --- Market talk: -- -  Final demand services were unchanged, giving markets room to look through the energy-driven spike as likely temporary Meanwhile... - Dow Inc. and Exxon Mobil Corp. are among the companies boosting prices for plastics as the sector grapples with supply shocks from the US-Israeli war on Iran. - The company said Monday that it will raise prices for North American buyers of polyethylene resins — common plastics found in packaging, films and containers — through at least May, according to a document viewed by Bloomberg. - That increase includes a 30-cent-per-pound boost for April and plans for another 20-cent-per-pound hike next month, according to the notice. Blockade - President Donald Trump said the US will begin a full naval blockade of the Strait of Hormuz and threatened to retaliate in the event of Iranian resistance. -The US and Iran failed to reach a deal in direct talks in Pakistan due to differences over the nuclear issue, according to Trump. --- At first, it was a FULL blockade - then another walk-back (or is this just politics vs reality?) - The blockade will be enforced impartially against vessels of all nations entering or departing Iranian ports and coastal areas, according to US Central Command. Goldman Earnings - Reports Q1 (Mar) earnings of $17.55 per share, $1.08 better than the FactSet Consensus of $16.47; revenues rose 14.4% year/year to $17.23 bln vs the $16.99 bln FactSet Consensus. - Net revenues in Fixed Income, Currency and Commodities were $4.01 billion, 10% lower than the first quarter of 2025, reflecting lower net revenues in FICC intermediation, due to significantly lower net revenues in interest rate products and mortgages and lower net revenues in credit products, partially offset by significantly higher net revenues in commodities and currencies. - Provisions for the first quarter of 2025 primarily reflected net provisions related to the credit card portfolio, which was transferred to held for sale in the fourth quarter of 2025. --- Goldman is cleaning up and selling off some of the credit card portfolio (Apple Card) ---- We discussed that analysts had been raising guidance for companies into the print. GS rallied 16% since March - so maybe just sell-the-news event Stocks: Earnings - Goldman Sachs downgraded Best Buy to a sell, and the stock dropped about 4% on the news. --- Goldman's view is that while Best Buy should get a short?term boost in the first quarter—helped by people pulling forward PC purchases and getting bigger tax refunds—that strength may not last. --------According to the analysts, once higher memory costs start working their way into laptop and computer prices, sales could come under pressure after Q1. Blackrock Call - Asset management giant BlackRock has raised its outlook for U.S. stocks, reasoning that contained impacts from the Iran war and strong corporate earnings will create a favorable backdrop. - With earnings season just getting underway, S&P 500 companies are expected to post a collective 12.6% profit increase for the first quarter. - But do we care what Blackrock says? Long only shop with $14T in ETFs Stocks: Monday/Tuesday -----Cruise line stocks were under pressure as higher energy costs and renewed concerns about demand came back into focus. Carnival dropped about 4%, Norwegian Cruise Line was down roughly 3%, and Royal Caribbean slid more than 2%. -----Airlines moved lower for similar reasons. Rising jet fuel prices and softer demand expectations weighed on the group, with United Airlines falling more than 2.5%, while Southwest and Delta both declined around 2%. --Tuesday - Follow through getting us at/above pre-war levels Stocks: Mattress Consolidation: - Leggett & Platt jumped about 9% after announcing it will be acquired by Somnigroup International, a bedding manufacturer. The deal is an all-stock transaction valued at roughly $2.5 billion, and it's expected to close by the end of 2026. ----Mattress Monopoly Now? Adding to  - Tempur Sealy, Mattress Firm, Dreams Stocks - Upgrades - Toll Brothers, Pultegroup — Shares of both stocks rose more than 1% after Evercore ISI upgraded the two homebuilders to outperform. - - The investment firm said it's time to buy the dip in the companies, believing the bad news is already priced in and that both Toll Brothers and Pultegroup could manage macroeconomic headwinds better than some of their peers. Pope Leo - WEAK on crime and terrible for Foreign Policy say President Trump -- Is the Pope involved in criminal /  police issues ? Jesus Update - Aside from the Jesus imagery with Trump as Jesus this weekend (Trust social post - then deleted) - At $1.99 per minute, the tech company Just Like Me is taking that concept to talk to Jesus to a new level. -----Users of the platform can join video calls with an avatar of Jesus generated by artificial intelligence. ------- Like other religious AI tools on the market, it offers words of prayer and encouragement in various languages. ----------With the occasional glitch, it remembers previous conversations and speaks through not-quite-synced lips. Reading Retreats - What it is: Paid reading retreats where people travel to quiet, upscale settings to read their own books—mostly in silence—alongside strangers. - The price: Typically $1,000+ for a long weekend, often selling out months in advance. - Why it works: People are burned out by screens and distractions and are paying for structure, silence, and protected time to focus. - Social without pressure: It offers light community—being alone together—without forced conversation or networking. - Cultural tailwinds: Fueled by BookTok, wellness travel, and nostalgia for slower, analog experiences, turning reading into a premium lifestyle activity. Of Interest - Delta Air Lines said Wednesday it will “meaningfully reduce” its capacity growth plans in the near term. AFTER BULLISH COMMENTS DAYS EARLIER - Delta joined United and JetBlue in hiking its checked bag fees this week as jet fuel costs surge. PRICE WILL NEVER COME DOWN - Delta said its fuel bill will be $2 billion higher this quarter because of the spike in costs. - The carrier also reported first-quarter earnings that beat analysts' expectations. BY THE WAY>>>>> JAYNA - AKA China - China's factory?gate prices rose 0.5%, the first increase in more than three years. -  Consumer prices increased 1% year over year in March, falling short of economists' expectations. - Gasoline prices jumped 11.1% from the prior month, even as Beijing tried to limit fuel price increases. - Economists warn the spike in input costs could lead to “bad inflation,” putting added pressure on manufacturers that are already operating with thin margins. Health Breakthrough - Revolution Medicines said its pancreatic cancer drug daraxonrasib succeeded in a Phase 3 trial. - RevMed said its drug almost doubled the typical length of survival and slashed the risk of death by 60% versus chemotherapy. - The company said it will soon seek FDA approval using a Commissioner's National Priority Voucher, which grants a quicker review. - It is a small?molecule oral oncology drug, taken as a daily pill, not chemotherapy or immunotherapy. - Stock up nicely on the news... China PPI - China's factory-gate prices rose for the first time in more than three years while consumer inflation moderated in March, amid a surge in oil prices as the Iran war upended global energy markets. - The producer price index grew 0.5% from a year earlier, the first growth since September 2022, ending the longest deflationary streak in decades. For the first quarter, the PPI fell 0.6% year on year. China PPI and CPI Intel - Intel's stock had a ninth straight winning day on Monday, up 58% over that stretch. - Shares of the semiconductor company are soaring after a series of announcements and major partnerships with Google and Elon Musk. - CPUs are seeing a resurgence as agentic artificial intelligence continues to gain traction.   Love the Show? Then how about a Donation? THE CLOSEST TO THE PIN for NETGEAR Winners will be getting great stuff like the new "OFFICIAL" DHUnplugged Shirt!     FED AND CRYPTO LIMERICKS   See this week's stock picks HERE Follow John C. Dvorak on Twitter Follow Andrew Horowitz on Twitter

Episode 300 marks a milestone moment for The Six Five Pod as AI shifts from innovation to consequence. This week, Patrick Moorhead and Daniel Newman unpack the risks of frontier models, the growing complexity of AI deployment, and the market signals that reveal where tech is heading next. The handpicked topics for this week are: The Frontier Model Arms Race: Anthropic Mythos + OpenAI Spud — Frontier models are advancing beyond controlled testing environments, exposing real-world vulnerabilities across operating systems and enterprise infrastructure. The hosts examine how rapidly increasing model capability is colliding with security readiness, and what this escalation means for competition across leading AI labs. (The Decode) Controlled Release and the Emergence of Gated AI Deployment Models — Anthropic's decision to limit access to Mythos reflects a broader shift toward security-first deployment strategies. Rather than prioritizing speed to market, companies are beginning to gate access, signaling a transition toward more controlled, compliance-aware AI rollouts. (The Decode) Meta's AI Offensive: Muse Spark Launches — Meta's first reasoning model from its Superintelligence Labs is now live across its consumer ecosystem, giving the company a direct distribution advantage while signaling that its infrastructure spending is beginning to translate into frontier-level model output. The hosts unpack what Muse Spark means for reasoning, multi-modal use cases, and the pressure it could put on closed-model pricing. (The Decode) Intel Joins Musk's 'Terafab' Mega-Project — Intel's involvement in Terafab gives real weight to its foundry comeback narrative and opens up a larger conversation about who will actually build tomorrow's AI manufacturing infrastructure. More than just a partnership, this could determine whether Intel becomes a central player in the next generation of AI chip production. (The Decode) Intel in Talks with Google and Amazon on Advanced Packaging — Advanced packaging is becoming a strategic layer in AI infrastructure as chiplets, memory, and interconnect design grow more complex. Pat and Dan unpack how Intel's reported talks with Google and Amazon suggest the company is moving beyond wafers and deeper into the system integration layer that hyperscalers increasingly need. (The Decode) Intel and SambaNova Launch Heterogeneous AI Inference Architecture — Intel and SambaNova are pairing GPUs, RDUs, and Xeon 6 CPUs into a heterogeneous inference blueprint aimed at demanding agentic AI workloads. The conversation focuses on why this matters for enterprise, sovereign, and cloud deployments, and how it reinforces Intel's effort to stay central in an increasingly mixed-compute future. (The Decode) Maine's Data Center Ban: Maine's proposed freeze on large data center construction turns infrastructure buildout into a political and local governance fight. The hosts connect this story to the broader backlash against AI infrastructure, making the point that land, water, energy, and community consent are becoming real constraints on hyperscaler ambition. (The Decode) Broadcom + Google + Anthropic Lock in Gigawatt-Scale TPU Capacity — This deal shows compute is no longer being treated like an on-demand utility. It's being secured like strategic infrastructure. Pat and Dan break down how gigawatt-scale TPU capacity, custom silicon collaboration, and Google's expanding role in the stack reshape the competitive map for frontier AI. (The Decode) Is AGI Really Here, Or Is This the Best Marketing in Tech History? — The debate on The Flip this week centers on whether Anthropic's Mythos behavior and OpenAI's claims around Spud signal a true AGI threshold, or whether the labs are using selective disclosures, gated releases, and ambitious framing to shape market perception before the technology actually meets a general intelligence standard. (The Flip) Iran Ceasefire Triggers $1.5 Trillion Relief Rally — Announcement of a fragile ceasefire drove one of the biggest market relief rallies of the year, while oil reversed sharply and investors rushed back into risk. The segment looks at what this says about geopolitical sensitivity, supply chain exposure, and how quickly macro conditions can reshape market sentiment. (Bulls & Bears) April 14 Semiconductor Tariff Deadline: The AI Supply Chain's Moment of Truth — With the Section 232 deadline approaching, the market is watching whether semiconductor tariffs are extended, softened, or escalated. Pat and Dan frame this as a major supply chain and pricing question that could affect chip economics, sovereign AI buildouts, and infrastructure costs across the rest of 2026. (Bulls & Bears) Samsung Q1 Guidance Signals Continued AI Memory Boom — Samsung's guidance reinforces the idea that the AI infrastructure cycle is still driving massive memory demand. The hosts use the company's quarterly results to read through pricing, margin recovery, and discuss whether the current memory upcycle is a short-term squeeze or part of a more durable AI supercycle. (Bulls & Bears) The Decode Anthropic Mythos https://www.businessinsider.com/anthropic-mythos-latest-ai-model-too-powerful-to-be-released-2026-4 OpenAI Spud https://happycapyguide.com/blog/openai-gpt-55-spud-pretraining-complete-agi-leap-2026 Meta Launches Muse Spark Reasoning Model https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-04-08/meta-debuts-first-ai-model-from-prized-superintelligence-group Intel Joins Musk's Terafab Mega-Project https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/intel-join-musks-terafab-mega-ai-chip-project-2026-04-07/ Intel in Talks with Google and Amazon on Advanced Packaging https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/intel-reportedly-in-talks-with-google-and-amazon-over-advanced-packaging Intel and Sambanova Launch Heterogenous AI Inference Architecture https://sambanova.ai/press/sambanova-announces-collaboration-with-intel-on-ai-solution Maine's Lawmakers Propose Data Center Moratorium https://www.wsj.com/us-news/maine-data-center-ban-e768fb18 Broadcom + Google + Anthropic Lock in Gigawatt-Scale TPU Capacity https://www.anthropic.com/news/google-broadcom-partnership-compute The Flip Is AGI Really Here — or Is This the Best Marketing in Tech History? FOR: https://www.businessinsider.com/anthropic-mythos-latest-ai-model-too-powerful-to-be-released-2026-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6vYvk7R190 AGAINST: https://techcrunch.com/2026/04/07/anthropic-mythos-ai-model-preview-security/ Bulls and Bears Iran Ceasefire Triggers $1.5 Trillion Relief Rally https://fortune.com/2026/04/08/markets-sp-trump-truce-ceasefire-iran-war-rally-strait-of-hormuz/ https://www.cnbc.com/2026/03/30/stock-market-today-live-updates.html April 14 Semiconductor Tariff Deadline: The AI Supply Chain Moment of Truth https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2026/01/adjusting-imports-of-semiconductors-semiconductor-manufacturing-equipment-and-their-derivative-products-into-the-united-states/ https://www.z2data.com/insights/the-section-232-semiconductor-tariff-explained Samsung Q1 Guidance Signals Continued AI Memory Boom https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-electronics-announces-earnings-guidance-for-first-quarter-2026 https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/sustainable-finance-reporting/samsung-flags-eight-fold-jump-q1-profit-ai-chip-demand-drives-up-prices-2026-04-06/ https://www.wsj.com/tech/samsung-forecasts-record-first-quarter-operating-profit-d85414ac  

SED News is a monthly podcast from Software Engineering Daily where hosts Gregor Vand and Sean Falconer unpack the biggest stories shaping software engineering, Silicon Valley, and the broader tech industry. In this episode, they cover the resurgence of ARM and CPUs as serious compute infrastructure for running local AI agents, a supply chain attack The post SED News: OpenCode, AI Code vs. Shipped Code, and the LiteLLM Breach appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

On this episode of For Mac Eyes Only: Join Mike, Darren, and Special Guest Guy Serle as they discuss upgrading Macs in the world of Apple Silicon including whether it's necessary to upgrade as frequently, the best candidates to upgrade, what drives users to the latest CPUs, and a few opinions on the MacBook Neo and its longevity. Darren shares a FMEO Quick Tip to remind folks to double-check their app access permissions. And we wrap up with Guy's Essential App pick: Wave Link!

In this episode, Ray Cochrane digs into a new study showing AI is literally frying workers’ brains, then unpacks Anthropic’s wildest month ever – from a 1,487% user surge to Pentagon retaliation to a leaked model called Mythos. Also covered: OpenAI kills Sora after burning $15 million a day, OpenClaw’s terrifying security holes, Apple axing the Mac Pro, ARM’s first-ever production CPU, and why King Tut’s dagger was forged from a meteorite. – Want to start a podcast? It’s easy to get started! Sign-up at Blubrry – Thinking of buying a Starlink? Use my link to support the show. Subscribe to the Newsletter. Email Ray if you want to get in touch! Like and Follow Geek News Central’s Facebook Page. Support my Show Sponsor: Best Godaddy Promo Codes Get 1Password Full Summary Cochrane opens the show with a study that puts a name to something most AI-heavy workers have already felt. From there, the episode moves through one of the most turbulent months in AI industry history, touching on corporate ethics, national security, hardware shortages, and ancient archaeology. AI Use at Work Is Causing “Brain Fry” A study from Boston Consulting Group and UC Riverside surveyed 1,500 full-time US workers and found that 14% experience what researchers call “AI brain fry” – mental fatigue from excessive AI tool oversight. Those affected report 33% more decision fatigue, 39% more major errors, and an increase in intent to quit from 25% to 34%. Notably, productivity peaks at one to three AI tools and drops off at four or more. Cochrane relates this directly to his own workflow, often running two to four tools side by side. However, he pushes back on the doom framing. He argues that context switching across multiple projects and rubber-stamping AI output without review are the real sources of fry. His takeaway: either work more slowly with greater intent, or use the accelerated pace to reclaim free time. Anthropic’s Wild Month: Exodus, Pentagon, and Mythos Claude sessions surged by roughly 1,487% from mid-January to early March, knocking ChatGPT off the top spot in the app store for the first time. ChatGPT uninstalls spiked nearly 300%, one-star reviews exploded 775% in a single day, and a boycott movement called “Quit GPT” has grown to between 2.5 and 4 million participants. The catalyst was OpenAI stepping in to take the Pentagon defense deal that Anthropic had publicly declined. Cochrane is firmly against automated domestic surveillance and autonomous weaponry, noting that the models are not reliable enough for such responsibilities. OpenAI tried to walk it back, but the Electronic Frontier Foundation called their language “weasel words.” Meanwhile, the Department of Defense slapped Anthropic with a supply chain risk label – a national security designation previously reserved for hostile foreign companies. Anthropic sued the Trump administration. Then Microsoft filed a legal brief in Anthropic’s defense, joined by 149 former judges, dozens of Google and OpenAI employees, and nearly two dozen retired generals. On top of all that, security researchers discovered an unsecured data cache exposing nearly 3,000 unpublished Anthropic files, including a model code-named Mythos (also called Capybara). Internal documents describe it as a step change in capabilities, scoring dramatically higher than Opus 4.6 on coding, reasoning, and cybersecurity. Then Anthropic’s source code leaked publicly as well. Sponsor: GoDaddy Economy hosting is $6.99/month, WordPress hosting is $12.99/month, and domains are $11.99. Both hosting plans include a free domain, professional email, and SSL certificate. Go to geeknewscentral.com/godaddy for the best pricing and to directly support this independent show. OpenAI Shuts Down Sora Video App OpenAI announced on March 24th that it is killing Sora, its AI video-generation app. Downloads cratered from 3.3 million in November to 1.1 million by February. The real numbers are brutal: Sora was costing roughly $15 million per day to run against a total lifetime revenue of just $2.1 million. The Sora web and app experience ends April 26th, with the API shutting down September 24th. Additionally, the Disney partnership – a billion-dollar deal meant to validate AI in Hollywood – collapsed completely. Deep fakes of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robin Williams appeared almost immediately despite guardrails, and both families protested publicly. Cochrane notes that competitors like Runway, Pika, and Kling are still operating, and suspects Hollywood will pivot to generating scene backgrounds rather than full content. OpenClaw Is a Security Nightmare Cochrane’s personal OpenClaw install started making outbound requests flagged by his ISP – with no changes or new skills installed. He shut it down and plans to wipe the device entirely. The broader picture is alarming. A January 2026 audit found 512 vulnerabilities in OpenClaw, eight critical. Twenty-six percent of community skills contain at least one vulnerability. Oasis Security discovered a vulnerability chain called “Clawjacked” where any website can silently take full control of a developer’s agent. Between March 18th and 21st alone, nine additional vulnerabilities were disclosed, several of which were rated 9.9 out of 10. Cochrane draws a direct parallel to the browser extension era: supply chain attacks hidden as helpful tools. Claude Code Auto Mode: AI Policing AI Anthropic published details on a new “auto mode” for Claude Code after finding that users approve 93% of permission prompts – essentially mashing “yes.” Auto mode replaces manual approvals with a two-layer defense: an input scanner to detect prompt injection and a second AI model that monitors the first and decides whether to allow each action. The safety checker can only see what the user asked for and what the AI is trying to do. It cannot see the AI’s reasoning, so the AI cannot talk its way past the check. However, Cochrane notes it still misses about one in six dangerous actions (17%), and the fundamental question remains: if the base layer can get infected, so can the checker. Qwen Overtakes Llama as Most-Deployed Self-Hosted LLM RunPod’s 2026 State of AI report, based on usage data from 183 countries, reveals that Alibaba’s Qwen has overtaken Meta’s Llama as the most popular self-hosted AI model. Llama 4 has barely been adopted, with users sticking to version 3 because it just works. Additionally, vLLM now powers 40% of all AI endpoints, NVIDIA’s latest GPU usage scaled 25x last year, and nearly 70% of AI image work runs through ComfyUI. Cochrane sees Qwen winning on merit and argues that is how open source should work. AI Data Centers Are Taking All the CPUs Too AI data centers are not just consuming GPUs and memory anymore – CPUs are now being strained too. Intel server CPU lead times have stretched from two weeks to six months. AMD typically occurs at 8 to 10 weeks. Server CPU demand is projected to jump 15% in 2026, but Intel’s output capacity is growing in single digits. The shift from chatbots to autonomous AI agents is changing the hardware ratio, since agents require far more CPU power to coordinate tasks and call tools. TSMC is prioritizing more profitable AI chips over regular CPUs. Cochrane warns that consumers and businesses are effectively subsidizing the AI boom through higher prices and longer waits. AMD Ryzen 9 9950X3D2: First Dual-Cache X3D CPU AMD announced the Ryzen 9 9950X3D2, the first CPU with dual-cache X3D technology. It arrives April 22nd with 208MB of total cache and a 200W TDP – up from the current model. However, AMD is unusually honest, calling the gains “modest,” ranging from 5-13% depending on the workload. Notably, they have not released gaming benchmarks, which is conspicuous for an X3D chip. Cochrane owns a single X3D chip and sees no reason to upgrade. ARM Launches “AGI” CPU After 35 years of licensing chip designs to Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, and NVIDIA, ARM has launched its first production silicon: a 136-core server chip co-developed with Meta as the lead customer. ARM’s stock jumped about 16% on the news. You can pack over 8,000 cores in a single air-cooled rack, or over 45,000 with liquid cooling. Volume shipments begin by the end of 2026. Cochrane appreciates the move but calls the “AGI” branding marketing hype. The bigger story is ARM transitioning from blueprint designer to direct competitor against Intel, AMD, and NVIDIA in data centers – while still licensing to the companies it now competes against. Apple Discontinues the Mac Pro Apple removed the Mac Pro from its website and confirmed that no future model is planned. The $6,999 machine had not been updated since the 2023 M2 Ultra model. Apple is pointing professionals toward the Mac Studio with its M4 Ultra chip, with an M5 Ultra refresh expected later this year. They also discontinued the $700 wheels kit, $300 feet kit, and Pro Display XDR the same week. Cochrane says good riddance – the Mac Studio covers what 90% of users need. Apple’s AI Pin: An AirTag-Sized Wearable Reports suggest Apple is developing an AirTag-sized wearable AI pin with cameras, microphones, and wireless charging. It would clip to clothing or hang as a necklace, running as an iPhone accessory powered by an upgraded Siri with Google’s Gemini AI. A possible 2027 release is expected alongside iOS 27, though development is early and could be canceled. Cochrane ties this to a broader shift: data collection moving from the application layer to physical devices. Apple employees internally refer to the device as “the eyes and ears of the iPhone.” He warns that always-on wearable cameras, combined with existing AI-powered surveillance poles, are pushing society deeper into mass data collection without meaningful consent. Quantum Entanglement Speed Measured for the First Time Scientists at TU Wien’s Institute of Theoretical Physics, led by Professor Joachim Burgdorfer, measured how fast quantum entanglement happens for the first time. The answer: about 232 attoseconds – a billionth of a billionth of a second. The research was published in Physical Review Letters in late 2024 and is now circulating widely. Einstein called quantum entanglement “spooky action at a distance.” Turns out it is not instantaneous – just extraordinarily fast. This measurement technique opens the door to quantum cryptography and quantum computing. However, Cochrane clarifies: this does not mean faster-than-light communication. Entanglement links particles but does not transmit information through space. Bronze Age Iron Artifacts Came From Outer Space Geochemical analysis by French scientist Albert Jambon, originally published in the Journal of Archaeological Science in 2017, confirmed that virtually all Bronze Age iron artifacts were made from meteorites. The artifacts span Egypt, Turkey, Syria, and China, including beads dating to 3200 BCE and the famous dagger from King Tut’s tomb, dating to around 1350 BCE. The story resurfaced after researchers published new findings this month on fragments of meteoritic iron weapons from China’s Sanxingdui sacrificial site. Bronze Age people lacked the technology to smelt iron ore, but meteoritic iron arrived in a metallic state, ready to be forged. Cochrane closes the episode, noting that ancient civilizations were working with extraterrestrial material before they could produce their own iron – resourcefulness that deserves respect. Cochrane wraps up the show by thanking GoDaddy for over twenty years of partnership and reminding listeners to subscribe, sign up for the newsletter, and reach out via email. The post Agentically Frying your Brain using AI #1861 appeared first on Geek News Central.

As Arm Holdings (ARM) maneuvers into silicon production and CPU development, EVP and CFO Jason Child explains why agentic AI offers enough demand for Arm to enter the chipmaking race. He believes the company's specialization in building specific parts of CPUs, to crating the entire chip, gives Arm customization opportunities some competitors don't have. "There's nobody like us," Jason says, showing strong conviction in the company's $15 billion revenue guidance through 2031. ======== Schwab Network ========Empowering every investor and trader, every market day.Options involve risks and are not suitable for all investors. Before trading, read the Options Disclosure Document. http://bit.ly/2v9tH6DSubscribe to the Market Minute newsletter - https://schwabnetwork.com/subscribeDownload the iOS app - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/schwab-network/id1460719185Download the Amazon Fire Tv App - https://www.amazon.com/TD-Ameritrade-Network/dp/B07KRD76C7Watch on Sling - https://watch.sling.com/1/asset/191928615bd8d47686f94682aefaa007/watchWatch on Vizio - https://www.vizio.com/en/watchfreeplus-exploreWatch on DistroTV - https://www.distro.tv/live/schwab-network/Follow us on X – https://twitter.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/schwabnetworkFollow us on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/schwab-network/About Schwab Network - https://schwabnetwork.com/about

SUMMARY: We dig into the NVIDIA GTC keynote and highlight three things - accelerated computing for everything, the complexity of the new inference stack, and NVIDIA's “open” software stack including NemoClaw.SHOW: 1012SHOW TRANSCRIPT: The Reasoning Show #1012 TranscriptSHOW VIDEO: https://youtu.be/aXOr91q76yMSHOW SPONSORS:VENTION - Ready for expert developers who actually deliver?Visit ventionteams.comSHOW NOTES:NVIDIA GTC 2026 (Keynote)NVIDIA NemoClaw - OpenClaw + OpenShell + NVIDIA Agent ToolkitNVIDIA adds Groq LPU to their rack systemsNVIDIA to invest $26B in Open Weight ModelsInterview with Jensen about Accelerated Computing (Stratechery)Topic 1 - Jensen's trying to paint the bigger picture of accelerated computing everywhere (robotics, autonomous driving, gen-ai, physical ai - but also just everyday enterprise apps). Everything is about keeping the stock price up, and margins high. The stock price provides the warchest to fight off all foes. Topic 2 - The inference architecture is a complex mix of GPUs, CPUs, ASICs/LPUs, high-speed networking and seems very different from the training architecture. How big is the burden on data center providers? What are the inference alternatives emerging? Topic 3 - Jensen talked a lot about OpenClaw and eventually about NVIDIA's NemoClaw. How does his interest in Agentic AI tie into his interest in building NVIDIA's own frontier modelFEEDBACK?Email: show @ reasoning dot showBluesky: @reasoningshow.bsky.socialTwitter/X: @ReasoningShowInstagram: @reasoningshowTikTok: @reasoningshow

NVIDIA has been the belle of the quarterly earnings ball for quite some time. Investors have been waiting to see how much NIVIDA beat earnings estimates. Even though earnings did beat expectations, the market reaction was “meh”. The gang breaks down NVIDIA's earnings and investigates into some of the challenges for the future Tyler Crowe, Matt Frankel, and Jon Quast discuss: - NVIDIA's earnings - The evolving landscape for CPUs and GPUs - The bull vs. bear look at MercadoLibre's earnings - The Trade Desk's quarterly results Companies discussed: NVDA, AMD, GOOG, MELI, AMZN, TTD, WMT, ROKU Host: Tyler Crowe Guests: Matt Frankel, Jon Quast Engineer: Dan Boyd Disclosure: Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. The Motley Fool and its affiliates (collectively, “TMF”) do not endorse, recommend, or verify the accuracy or completeness of the statements made within advertisements. TMF is not involved in the offer, sale, or solicitation of any securities advertised herein and makes no representations regarding the suitability, or risks associated with any investment opportunity presented. Investors should conduct their own due diligence and consult with legal, tax, and financial advisors before making any investment decisions. TMF assumes no responsibility for any losses or damages arising from this advertisement. We're committed to transparency: All personal opinions in advertisements from Fools are their own. The product advertised in this episode was loaned to TMF and was returned after a test period or the product advertised in this episode was purchased by TMF. Advertiser has paid for the sponsorship of this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices