Podcasts about devrel

Share on
Share on Facebook
Share on Twitter
Share on Reddit
Copy link to clipboard
  • 95PODCASTS
  • 339EPISODES
  • 44mAVG DURATION
  • 5WEEKLY NEW EPISODES
  • Jan 17, 2022LATEST

POPULARITY

20122013201420152016201720182019202020212022


Best podcasts about devrel

Latest podcast episodes about devrel

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech
Caroline Kerns: How Dabbling in Careers Led to Community and #DevRel

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2022 47:04


Caroline is originally from Germany and has tried many different careers on for size. She has had roles ranging from recruiting, automotive, and retail and her interest in programming began a few years ago with a desire to create a Jane Austen quote website (because who doesn't want to read daily Jane Austen quotes?). Since then, she's dabbled in JavaScript and Python and today is the Community Manager at Vonage. In today's episode, we chat all about the power of community, especially within the Developer Relations space. Reflecting on her time as a recruiter, Caroline shares tips on how to write the best possible resume and get it in front of a hiring manager. We talk about how the pandemic impacted online communities and led to developers streaming on Twitch and she also gives advice on how to find tech communities that are inclusive and the right fit for you! Resources: Follow Caroline on Twitter @grumpysnek: https://twitter.com/grumpysnekCaroline's LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/captcalli/Software and Game Development Twitch Category: https://twitch.tv/directory/game/Software%20and%20Game%20Development The Live Coders Twitch: https://twitch.tv/team/livecoders Instafluff Twitch: https://twitch.tv/instafluff BaldBeardedBuilder Twitch: https://twitch.tv/baldbeardedbuilderWe Belong Here Podcast:Follow Lauren on Twitter @LoLoCodingWeBelongPodcast.comSubscribe on AppleSubscribe on SpotifyWe Belong Here Discord CommunityJoin us on Discord Server today! bit.ly/webelongdiscord 

Screaming in the Cloud
Slinging CDK Knowledge with Matt Coulter

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 12, 2022 37:37


About MattMatt is an AWS DevTools Hero, Serverless Architect, Author and conference speaker. He is focused on creating the right environment for empowered teams to rapidly deliver business value in a well-architected, sustainable and serverless-first way.You can usually find him sharing reusable, well architected, serverless patterns over at cdkpatterns.com or behind the scenes bringing CDK Day to life.Links: AWS CDK Patterns: https://cdkpatterns.com The CDK Book: https://thecdkbook.com CDK Day: https://www.cdkday.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined today by Matt Coulter, who is a Technical Architect at Liberty Mutual. You may have had the privilege of seeing him on the keynote stage at re:Invent last year—in Las Vegas or remotely—that last year of course being 2021. But if you make better choices than the two of us did, and found yourself not there, take the chance to go and watch that keynote. It's really worth seeing.Matt, first, thank you for joining me. I'm sorry, I don't have 20,000 people here in the audience to clap this time. They're here, but they're all remote as opposed to sitting in the room behind me because you know, social distancing.Matt: And this left earphone, I just have some applause going, just permanently, just to keep me going. [laugh].Corey: That's sort of my own internal laugh track going on. It's basically whatever I say is hilarious, to that. So yeah, doesn't really matter what I say, how I say it, my jokes are all for me. It's fine. So, what was it like being on stage in front of that many people? It's always been a wild experience to watch and for folks who haven't spent time on the speaking circuit, I don't think that there's any real conception of what that's like. Is this like giving a talk at work, where I just walk on stage randomly, whatever I happened to be wearing? And, oh, here's a microphone, I'm going to say words. What is the process there?Matt: It's completely different. For context for everyone, before the pandemic, I would have pretty regularly talked in front of, I don't know, maybe one, two hundred people in Liberty, in Belfast. So, I used to be able to just, sort of, walk in front of them, and lean against the pillar, and use my clicker, and click through, but the process for actually presenting something as big as a keynote and re:Invent is so different. For starters, you think that when you walk onto the stage, you'll actually be able to see the audience, but the way the lights are set up, you can pretty much see about one row of people, and they're not the front row, so anybody I knew, I couldn't actually see.And yeah, you can only see, sort of like, the from the void, and then you have your screens, so you've six sets of screens that tell you your notes as well as what slides you're on, you know, so you can pivot. But other than that, I mean, it feels like you're just talking to yourself outside of whenever people, thankfully, applause. It's such a long process to get there.Corey: I've always said that there are a few different transition stages as the audience size increases, but for me, the final stage is more or less anything above 750 people. Because as you say, you aren't able to see that many beyond that point, and it doesn't really change anything meaningfully. The most common example that you see in the wild is jokes that work super well with a small group of people fall completely flat to large audiences. It's why so much corporate numerous cheesy because yeah, everyone in the rehearsals is sitting there laughing and the joke kills, but now you've got 5000 people sitting in a room and that joke just sounds strained and forced because there's no longer a conversation, and no one has the shared context that—the humor has to change. So, in some cases when you're telling a story about what you're going to say on stage, during a rehearsal, they're going to say, “Well, that joke sounds really corny and lame.” It's, “Yeah, wait until you see it in front of an audience. It will land very differently.” And I'm usually right on that.I would also advise, you know, doing what you do and having something important and useful to say, as opposed to just going up there to tell jokes the whole time. I wanted to talk about that because you talked about how you're using various CDK and other serverless style patterns in your work at Liberty Mutual.Matt: Yeah. So, we've been using CDK pretty extensively since it was, sort of, Q3 2019. At that point, it was new. Like, it had just gone GA at the time, just came out of dev preview. And we've been using CDK from the perspective of we want to be building serverless-first, well-architected apps, and ideally we want to be building them on AWS.Now, the thing is, we have 5000 people in our IT organization, so there's sort of a couple of ways you can take to try and get those people onto the cloud: You can either go the route of being, like, there is one true path to architecture, this is our architecture and everything you want to build can fit into that square box; or you can go the other approach and try and have the golden path where you say this is the paved road that is really easy to do, but if you want to differentiate from that route, that's okay. But what you need to do is feed back into the golden path if that works. Then everybody can improve. And that's where we've started been using CDK. So, what you heard me talk about was the software accelerator, and it's sort of a different approach.It's where anybody can build a pattern and then share it so that everybody else can rapidly, you know, just reuse it. And what that means is effectively you can, instead of having to have hundreds of people on a central team, you can actually just crowdsource, and sort of decentralize the function. And if things are good, then a small team can actually come in and audit them, so to speak, and check that it's well-architected, and doesn't have flaws, and drive things that way.Corey: I have to confess that I view the CDK as sort of a third stage automation approach, and it's one that I haven't done much work with myself. The first stage is clicking around in the console; the second is using CloudFormation or Terraform; the third stage is what we're talking about here is CDK or Pulumi, or something like that. And then you ascend to the final fourth stage, which is what I use, which is clicking around in the AWS console, but then you lie to people about it. ClickOps is poised to take over the world. But that's okay. You haven't gotten that far yet. Instead, you're on the CDK side. What advantages does CDK offer that effectively CloudFormation or something like it doesn't?Matt: So, first off, for ClickOps in Liberty, we actually have the AWS console as read-only in all of our accounts, except for sandbox. So, you can ClickOps in sandbox to learn, but if you want to do something real, unfortunately, it's going to fail you. So.—Corey: I love that pattern. I think I might steal that.Matt: [laugh]. So, originally, we went heavy on CloudFormation, which is why CDK worked well for us. And because we've actually—it's been a long journey. I mean, we've been deploying—2014, I think it was, we first started deploying to AWS, and we've used everything from Terraform, to you name it. We've built our own tools, believe it or not, that are basically CDK.And the thing about CloudFormation is, it's brilliant, but it's also incredibly verbose and long because you need to specify absolutely everything that you want to deploy, and every piece of configuration. And that's fine if you're just deploying a side project, but if you're in an enterprise that has responsibilities to protect user data, and you can't just deploy anything, they end up thousands and thousands and thousands of lines long. And then we have amazing guardrails, so if you tried to deploy a CloudFormation template with a flaw in it, we can either just fix it, or reject the deploy. But CloudFormation is not known to be the fastest to deploy, so you end up in this developer cycle, where you build this template by hand, and then it goes through that CloudFormation deploy, and then you get the failure message that it didn't deploy because of some compliance thing, and developers just got frustrated, and were like, sod this. [laugh].I'm not deploying to AWS. Back the on-prem. And that's where CDK was a bit different because it allowed us to actually build abstractions with all of our guardrails baked in, so that it just looked like a standard class, for developers, like, developers already know Java, Python, TypeScript, the languages off CDK, and so we were able to just make it easy by saying, “You want API Gateway? There's an API Gateway class. You want, I don't know, an EC2 instance? There you go.” And that way, developers could focus on the thing they wanted, instead of all of the compliance stuff that they needed to care about every time they wanted to deploy.Corey: Personally, I keep lobbying AWS to add my preferred language, which is crappy shell scripting, but for some reason they haven't really been quick to add that one in. The thing that I think surprises me, on some level—though, perhaps it shouldn't—is not just the adoption of serverless that you're driving at Liberty Mutual, but the way that you're interacting with that feels very futuristic, for lack of a better term. And please don't think that I'm in any way describing this in a way that's designed to be insulting, but I do a bunch of serverless nonsense on Twitter for Pets. That's not an exaggeration. twitterforpets.com has a bunch of serverless stuff behind it because you know, I have personality defects.But no one cares about that static site that's been a slide dump a couple of times for me, and a running joke. You're at Liberty Mutual; you're an insurance company. When people wind up talking about big enterprise institutions, you're sort of a shorthand example of exactly what they're talking about. It's easy to contextualize or think of that as being very risk averse—for obvious reasons; you are an insurance company—as well as wanting to move relatively slowly with respect to technological advancement because mistakes are going to have drastic consequences to all of your customers, people's lives, et cetera, as opposed to tweets or—barks—not showing up appropriately at the right time. How did you get to the, I guess, advanced architectural philosophy that you clearly have been embracing as a company, while having to be respectful of the risk inherent that comes with change, especially in large, complex environments?Matt: Yeah, it's funny because so for everyone, we were talking before this recording started about, I've been with Liberty since 2011. So, I've seen a lot of change in the length of time I've been here. And I've built everything from IBM applications right the way through to the modern serverless apps. But the interesting thing is, the journey to where we are today definitely started eight or nine years ago, at a minimum because there was something identified in the leadership that they said, “Listen, we're all about our customers. And that means we don't want to be wasting millions of dollars, and thousands of hours, and big trains of people to build software that does stuff. We want to focus on why are we building a piece of software, and how quickly can we get there? If you focus on those two things you're doing all right.”And that's why starting from the early days, we focused on things like, okay, everything needs to go through CI/CD pipelines. You need to have your infrastructure as code. And even if you're deploying on-prem, you're still going to be using the same standards that we use to deploy to AWS today. So, we had years and years and years of just baking good development practices into the company. And then whenever we started to move to AWS, the question became, do we want to just deploy the same thing or do we want to take full advantage of what the cloud has to offer? And I think because we were primed and because the leadership had the right direction, you know, we were just sitting there ready to say, “Okay, serverless seems like a way we can rapidly help our customers.” And that's what we've done.Corey: A lot of the arguments against serverless—and let's be clear, they rhyme with the previous arguments against cloud that lots of people used to make; including me, let's be clear here. I'm usually wrong when I try to predict the future. “Well, you're putting your availability in someone else's hands,” was the argument about cloud. Yeah, it turns out the clouds are better at keeping things up than we are as individual companies.Then with serverless, it's the, “Well, if they're handling all that stuff for you on their side, when they're down, you're down. That's an unacceptable business risk, so we're going to be cloud-agnostic and multi-cloud, and that means everything we build serverlessly needs to work in multiple environments, including in our on-prem environment.” And from the way that we're talking about servers and things that you're building, I don't believe that is technically possible, unless some of the stuff you're building is ridiculous. How did you come to accept that risk organizationally?Matt: These are the conversations that we're all having. Sort of, I'd say once a week, we all have a multi-cloud discussion—and I really liked the article you wrote, it was maybe last year, maybe the year before—but multi-cloud to me is about taking the best capabilities that are out there and bringing them together. So, you know, like, Azure [ID 00:12:47] or whatever, things from the other clouds that they're good at, and using those rather than thinking, “Can I build a workload that I can simultaneously pay all of the price to run across all of the clouds, all of the time, so that if one's down, theoretically, I might have an outage?” So, the way we've looked at it is we embraced really early the well-architected framework from AWS. And it talks about things like you need to have multi-region availability, you need to have your backups in place, you need to have things like circuit breakers in place for if third-party goes down, and we've just tried to build really resilient architectures as best as we can on AWS. And do you know what I think, if [laugh] it AWS is not—I know at re:Invent, there it went down extraordinarily often compared to normal, but in general—Corey: We were all tired of re:Invent; their us-east-1 was feeling the exact same way.Matt: Yeah, so that's—it deserved a break. But, like, if somebody can't buy insurance for an hour, once a year, [laugh] I think we're okay with it versus spending millions to protect that one hour.Corey: And people make assumptions based on this where, okay, we had this problem with us-east-1 that froze things like the global Route 53 control planes; you couldn't change DNS for seven hours. And I highlighted that as, yeah, this is a problem, and it's something to severely consider, but I will bet you anything you'd care to name that there is an incredibly motivated team at AWS, actively fixing that as we speak. And by—I don't know how long it takes to untangle all of those dependencies, but I promise they're going to be untangled in relatively short order versus running data centers myself, when I discover a key underlying dependency I didn't realize was there, well, we need to break that. That's never going to happen because we're trying to do things as a company, and it's just not the most important thing for us as a going concern. With AWS, their durability and reliability is the most important thing, arguably compared to security.Would you rather be down or insecure? I feel like they pick down—I would hope in most cases they would pick down—but they don't want to do either one. That is something they are drastically incentivized to fix. And I'm never going to be able to fix things like that and I don't imagine that you folks would be able to either.Matt: Yeah, so, two things. The first thing is the important stuff, like, for us, that's claims. We want to make sure at any point in time, if you need to make a claim you can because that is why we're here. And we can do that with people whether or not the machines are up or down. So, that's why, like, you always have a process—a manual process—that the business can operate, irrespective of whether the cloud is still working.And that's why we're able to say if you can't buy insurance in that hour, it's okay. But the other thing is, we did used to have a lot of data centers, and I have to say, the people who ran those were amazing—I think half the staff now work for AWS—but there was this story that I heard where there was an app that used to go down at the same time every day, and nobody could work out why. And it was because someone was coming in to clean the room at that time, and they unplugged the server to plug in a vacuum, and then we're cleaning the room, and then plugging it back in again. And that's the kind of thing that just happens when you manage people, and you manage a building, and manage a premises. Whereas if you've heard that happened that AWS, I mean, that would be front page news.Corey: Oh, it absolutely would. There's also—as you say, if it's the sales function, if people aren't able to buy insurance for an hour, when us-east-1 went down, the headlines were all screaming about AWS taking an outage, and some of the more notable customers were listed as examples of this, but the story was that, “AWS has massive outage,” not, “Your particular company is bad at technology.” There's sort of a reputational risk mitigation by going with one of these centralized things. And again, as you're alluding to, what you're doing is not life-critical as far as the sales process and getting people to sign up. If an outage meant that suddenly a bunch of customers were no longer insured, that's a very different problem. But that's not your failure mode.Matt: Exactly. And that's where, like, you got to look at what your business is, and what you're specifically doing, but for 99.99999% of businesses out there, I'm pretty sure you can be down for the tiny window that AWS is down per year, and it will be okay, as long as you plan for it.Corey: So, one thing that really surprised me about the entirety of what you've done at Liberty Mutual is that you're a big enterprise company, and you can take a look at any enterprise company, and say that they have dueling mottos, which is, “I am not going to comment on that,” or, “That's not funny.” Like, the safe mode for any large concern is to say nothing at all. But a lot of folks—not just you—at Liberty have been extremely vocal about the work that you're doing, how you view these things, and I almost want to call it advocacy or evangelism for the CDK. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that for a little while there, I thought you were an AWS employee in their DevRel program because you were such an advocate in such strong ways for the CDK itself.And that is not something I expected. Usually you see the most vocal folks working in environments that, let's be honest, tend to play a little bit fast and loose with things like formal corporate communications. Liberty doesn't and yet, there you folks are telling these great stories. Was that hard to win over as a culture, or am I just misunderstanding how corporate life is these days?Matt: No, I mean, so it was different, right? There was a point in time where, I think, we all just sort of decided that—I mean, we're really good at what we do from an engineering perspective, and we wanted to make sure that, given the messaging we were given, those 5000 teck employees in Liberty Mutual, if you consider the difference in broadcasting to 5000 versus going external, it may sound like there's millions, billions of people in the world, but in reality, the difference in messaging is not that much. So, to me what I thought, like, whenever I started anyway—it's not, like, we had a meeting and all decided at the same time—but whenever I started, it was a case of, instead of me just posting on all the internal channels—because I've been doing this for years—it's just at that moment, I thought, I could just start saying these things externally and still bring them internally because all you've done is widened the audience; you haven't actually made it shallower. And that meant that whenever I was having the internal conversations, nothing actually changed except for it meant external people, like all their Heroes—like Jeremy Daly—could comment on these things, and then I could bring that in internally. So, it almost helped the reverse takeover of the enterprise to change the culture because I didn't change that much except for change the audience of who I was talking to.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: One thing that you've done that I want to say is admirable, and I stumbled across it when I was doing some work myself over the break, and only right before this recording did I discover that it was you is the cdkpatterns.com website. Specifically what I love about it is that it publishes a bunch of different patterns of ways to do things. This deviates from a lot of tutorials on, “Here's how to build this one very specific thing,” and instead talks about, “Here's the architecture design; here's what the baseline pattern for that looks like.” It's more than a template, but less than a, “Oh, this is a messaging app for dogs and I'm trying to build a messaging app for cats.” It's very generalized, but very direct, and I really, really like that model of demo.Matt: Thank you. So, watching some of your Twitter threads where you experiment with new—Corey: Uh oh. People read those. That's a problem.Matt: I know. So, whatever you experiment with a new piece of AWS to you, I've always wondered what it would be like to be your enabling architect. Because technically, my job in Liberty is, I meant to try and stay ahead of everybody and try and ease the on-ramp to these things. So, if I was your enabling architect, I would be looking at it going, “I should really have a pattern for this.” So that whenever you want to pick up that new service the patterns in cdkpatterns.com, there's 24, 25 of them right there, but internally, there's way more than dozens now.The goal is, the pattern is the least amount to code for you to learn a concept. And then that way, you can not only see how something works, but you can maybe pick up one of the pieces of the well-architected framework while you're there: All of it's unit tested, all of it is proper, you know, like, commented code. The idea is to not be crap, but not be gold-plated either. I'm currently in the process of upgrading that all to V2 as well. So, that [unintelligible 00:21:32].Corey: You mentioned a phrase just now: “Enabling architect.” I have to say this one that has not crossed my desk before. Is that an internal term you use? Is that an enterprise concept I've somehow managed to avoid? Is that an AWS job role? What is that?Matt: I've just started saying [laugh] it's my job over the past couple of years. That—I don't know, patent pending? But the idea to me is—Corey: No, it's evocative. I love the term, I'd love to learn more.Matt: Yeah, because you can sort of take two approaches to your architecture: You can take the traditional approach, which is the ‘house of no' almost, where it's like, “This is the architecture. How dare you want to deviate. This is what we have decided. If you want to change it, here's the Architecture Council and go through enterprise architecture as people imagine it.” But as people might work out quite quickly, whenever they meet me, the whole, like, long conversational meetings are not for me. What I want to do is teach engineers how to help themselves, so that's why I see myself as enabling.And what I've been doing is using techniques like Wardley Mapping, which is where you can go out and you can actually take all the components of people's architecture and you can draw them on a map for—it's a map of how close they are to the customer, as well as how cutting edge the tech is, or how aligned to our strategic direction it is. So, you can actually map out all of the teams, and—there's 160, 170 engineers in Belfast and Dublin, and I can actually go in and say, “Oh, that piece of your architecture would be better if it was evolved to this. Well, I have a pattern for that,” or, “I don't have a pattern for that, but you know what? I'll build one and let's talk about it next week.” And that's always trying to be ahead, instead of people coming to me and I have to say no.Corey: AWS Proton was designed to do something vaguely similar, where you could set out architectural patterns of—like, the two examples that they gave—I don't know if it's in general availability yet or still in public preview, but the ones that they gave were to build a REST API with Lambda, and building something-or-other with Fargate. And the idea was that you could basically fork those, or publish them inside of your own environment of, “Oh, you want a REST API; go ahead and do this.” It feels like their vision is a lot more prescriptive than what yours is.Matt: Yeah. I talked to them quite a lot about Proton, actually because, as always, there's different methodologies and different ways of doing things. And as I showed externally, we have our software accelerator, which is kind of our take on Proton, and it's very open. Anybody can contribute; anybody can consume. And then that way, it means that you don't necessarily have one central team, you can have—think of it more like an SRE function for all of the patterns, rather than… the Proton way is you've separate teams that are your DevOps teams that set up your patterns and then separate team that's consumer, and they have different permissions, different rights to do different things. If you use a Proton pattern, anytime an update is made to that pattern, it auto-deploys your infrastructure.Corey: I can see that breaking an awful lot.Matt: [laugh]. Yeah. So, the idea is sort of if you're a consumer, I assume you [unintelligible 00:24:35] be going to change that infrastructure. You can, they've built in an escape hatch, but the whole concept of it is there's a central team that looks to what the best configuration for that is. So, I think Proton has so much potential, I just think they need to loosen some of the boundaries for it to work for us, and that's the feedback I've given them directly as well.Corey: One thing that I want to take a step beyond this is, you care about this? More than most do. I mean, people will work with computers, yes. We get paid for that. Then they'll go and give talks about things. You're doing that as well. They'll launch a website occasionally, like, cdkpatterns.com, which you have. And then you just sort of decide to go for the absolute hardest thing in the world, and you're one of four authors of a book on this. Tell me more.Matt: Yeah. So, this is something that there's a few of us have been talking since one of the first CDK Days, where we're friends, so there's AWS Heroes. There's Thorsten Höger, Matt Bonig, Sathyajith Bhat, and myself, came together—it was sometime in the summer last year—and said, “Okay. We want to write a book, but how do we do this?” Because, you know, we weren't authors before this point; we'd never done it before. We weren't even sure if we should go to a publisher, or if we should self-publish.Corey: I argue that no one wants to write a book. They want to have written a book, and every first-time author I've ever spoken to at the end has said, “Why on earth would anyone want to do this a second time?” But people do it.Matt: Yeah. And that's we talked to Alex DeBrie, actually, about his book, the amazing Dynamodb Book. And it was his advice, told us to self-publish. And he gave us his starter template that he used for his book, which took so much of the pain out because all we had to do was then work out how we were going to work together. And I will say, I write quite a lot of stuff in general for people, but writing a book is completely different because once it's out there, it's out there. And if it's wrong, it's wrong. You got to release a new version and be like, “Listen, I got that wrong.” So, it did take quite a lot of effort from the group to pull it together. But now that we have it, I want to—I don't have a printed copy because it's only PDF at the minute, but I want a copy just put here [laugh] in, like, the frame. Because it's… it's what we all want.Corey: Yeah, I want you to do that through almost a traditional publisher, selfishly, because O'Reilly just released the AWS Cookbook, and I had a great review quote on the back talking about the value added. I would love to argue that they use one of mine for The CDK Book—and then of course they would reject it immediately—of, “I don't know why you do all this. Using the console and lying about it is way easier.” But yeah, obviously not the direction you're trying to take the book in. But again, the industry is not quite ready for the lying version of ClickOps.It's really neat to just see how willing you are to—how to frame this?—to give of yourself and your time and what you've done so freely. I sometimes make a joke—that arguably isn't that funny—that, “Oh, AWS Hero. That means that you basically volunteer for a $1.6 trillion company.”But that's not actually what you're doing. What you're doing is having figured out all the sharp edges and hacked your way through the jungle to get to something that is functional, you're a trailblazer. You're trying to save other people who are working with that same thing from difficult experiences on their own, having to all thrash and find our own way. And not everyone is diligent and as willing to continue to persist on these things. Is that a somewhat fair assessment how you see the Hero role?Matt: Yeah. I mean, no two Heroes are the same, from what I've judged, I haven't met every Hero yet because pandemic, so Vegas was the first time [I met most 00:28:12], but from my perspective, I mean, in the past, whatever number of years I've been coding, I've always been doing the same thing. Somebody always has to go out and be the first person to try the thing and work out what the value is, and where it'll work for us more work for us. The only difference with the external and public piece is that last 5%, which it's a very different thing to do, but I personally, I like even having conversations like this where I get to meet people that I've never met before.Corey: You sort of discovered the entire secret of why I have an interview podcast.Matt: [laugh]. Yeah because this is what I get out of it, just getting to meet other people and have new experiences. But I will say there's Heroes out there doing very different things. You've got, like, Hiro—as in Hiro, H-I-R-O—actually started AWS Newbies and she's taught—ah, it's hundreds of thousands of people how to actually just start with AWS, through a course designed for people who weren't coders before. That kind of thing is next-level compared to anything I've ever done because you know, they have actually built a product and just given it away. I think that's amazing.Corey: At some level, building a product and giving it away sounds like, “You know, I want to never be lonely again.” Well, that'll work because you're always going to get support tickets. There's an interesting narrative around how to wind up effectively managing the community, and users, and demands, based on open-source maintainers, that we're all wrestling with as an industry, particularly in the wake of that whole log4j nonsense that we've been tilting at that windmill, and that's going to be with us for a while. One last thing I want to talk about before we wind up calling this an episode is, you are one of the organizers of CDK Day. What is that?Matt: Yeah, so CDK Day, it's a complete community-organized conference. The past two have been worldwide, fully virtual just because of the situation we're in. And I mean, they've been pretty popular. I think we had about 5000 people attended the last one, and the idea is, it's a full day of the community just telling their stories of how they liked or disliked using the CDK. So, it's not a marketing event; it's not a sales event; we actually run the whole event on a budget of exactly $0. But yeah, it's just a day of fun to bring the community together and learn a few things. And, you know, if you leave it thinking CDK is not for you, I'm okay with that as much as if you just make a few friends while you're there.Corey: This is the first time I'd realized that it wasn't a formal AWS event. I almost feel like that's the tagline that you should have under it. It's—because it sounds like the CDK Day, again, like, it's this evangelism pure, “This is why it's great and why you should use it.” But I love conferences that embrace critical views. I built one of the first talks I ever built out that did anything beyond small user groups was “Heresy in the Church of Docker.”Then they asked me to give that at ContainerCon, which was incredibly flattering. And I don't think they made that mistake a second time, but it was great to just be willing to see some group of folks that are deeply invested in the technology, but also very open to hearing criticism. I think that's the difference between someone who is writing a nuanced critique versus someone who's just [pure-on 00:31:18] zealotry. “But the CDK is the answer to every technical problem you've got.” Well, I start to question the wisdom of how applicable it really is, and how objective you are. I've never gotten that vibe from you.Matt: No, and that's the thing. So, I mean, as we've worked out in this conversation, I don't work for AWS, so it's not my product. I mean, if it succeeds or if it fails, it doesn't impact my livelihood. I mean, there are people on the team who would be sad for, but the point is, my end goal is always the same. I want people to be enabled to rapidly deliver their software to help their customers.If that's CDK, perfect, but CDK is not for everyone. I mean, there are other options available in the market. And if, even, ClickOps is the way to go for you, I am happy for you. But if it's a case of we can have a conversation, and I can help you get closer to where you need to be with some other tool, that's where I want to be. I just want to help people.Corey: And if I can do anything to help along that axis, please don't hesitate to let me know. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me and being so generous, not just with your time for this podcast, but all the time you spend helping the rest of us figure out which end is up, as we continue to find that the way we manage environments evolves.Matt: Yeah. And, listen, just thank you for having me on today because I've been reading your tweets for two years, so I'm just starstruck at this moment to even be talking to you. So, thank you.Corey: No, no. I understand that, but don't worry, I put my pants on two legs at a time, just like everyone else. That's right, the thought leader on Twitter, you have to jump into your pants. That's the rule. Thanks again so much. I look forward to having a further conversation with you about this stuff as I continue to explore, well honestly, what feels like a brand new paradigm for how we manage code.Matt: Yeah. Reach out if you need any help.Corey: I certainly will. You'll regret asking. Matt [Coulter 00:33:06], Technical Architect at Liberty Mutual. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, write an angry comment, then click the submit button, but lie and say you hit the submit button via an API call.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The Cloudcast
2022 Look Ahead, Developer Careers

The Cloudcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 12, 2022 49:37


Shawn Wang (@swyx, Head of Developer Experience @Temporalio) talks about the breadth of developer skills needed, how developers learn new technologies, and insights into important future trends for a broad set of developers. SHOW: 582CLOUD NEWS OF THE WEEK - http://bit.ly/cloudcast-cnotwCHECK OUT OUR NEW PODCAST - "CLOUDCAST BASICS"SHOW SPONSORS:JumpCloud (homepage) At the intersection of devices, identities, and access, JumpCloud's cloud directory platform unifies the IT resources in any company's infrastructure – anywhere work happens. Fully evaluate JumpCloud for free today CloudZero - Cloud Cost Intelligence for Engineering TeamsDatadog Kubernetes Solution : Modern Monitoring and AnalyticsGet started monitoring your container environment with a free 14 day Datadog trial. Listeners of The Cloudcast will also receive a free Datadog T-shirt.SHOW NOTES:Shawn's homepageTemporal.io (homepage) - open source microservice orchestrationLearning in Public - The Coding Career HandbookThe Coding Career (community)Topic 1 - Welcome to the show. You seem to be at the center of (or around) so many developer-centric conversations. Tell us a little bit about your background, and some of the areas you've been focused on. Topic 2 - You're well known for The Coding Career Handbook. With so many options out there for developers, how do you frame conversations about where people should focus? Topic 3 - At some point, developers (like many engineers) get bored of working on the same things. Right now it seems like we're in the middle of big changes. What should they think about the transition process? Cloud distros https://www.swyx.io/cloud-distros/Self provisioning runtimes https://www.swyx.io/self-provisioning-runtime/ Video in DevRel https://sacra.com/research/lenny-bogdanoff-milk-video-infrastructure/?highlight=ecommerce Topic 4 - As a developer, what are some of the best ways to get visibility of your projects? How do you find the right balance of public projects, side projects, and whatever you're currently getting paid for (main company job)?Topic 5 - Any tips or tricks that you've learned to accelerate your learning process? Topic 6 - How is WFH changing the developer work-life-balance?FEEDBACK?Email: show at the cloudcast dot netTwitter: @thecloudcastnet

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
Continuing education with Eve Porcello (Repeat)

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 24, 2021 40:32


Originally published on June 1st, 2021 We are taking some time off from production. We will be back with new episodes on January 4th. In this episode, we talk to Eve Porcello about her experience teaching web development. We also talk about Moon Highway, a training and curriculum development company she runs with her husband, Alex Banks. Links https://twitter.com/eveporcello https://moonhighway.com https://www.linkedin.com/learning https://graphqlworkshop.com https://www.howtographql.com https://odyssey.apollographql.com https://graphql.org Review us https://ratethispodcast.com/podrocket Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Eve Porcello.

Heavybit Podcast Network: Master Feed
Ep. #93, Elevating Headless CMS with Facundo Giuliani of Storyblok

Heavybit Podcast Network: Master Feed

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 23, 2021 25:03


In episode 93 of JAMstack Radio, Brian speaks with Facundo Giuliani of Storyblok. They discuss Facundo's journey to DevRel, tips for working remotely across time zones, and insights on the dev scene in Argentina.

JAMstack Radio
Ep. #93, Elevating Headless CMS with Facundo Giuliani of Storyblok

JAMstack Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 23, 2021 25:03


In episode 93 of JAMstack Radio, Brian speaks with Facundo Giuliani of Storyblok. They discuss Facundo's journey to DevRel, tips for working remotely across time zones, and insights on the dev scene in Argentina.

Podcast DevExperto
Repasamos las nuevas guías de Arquitecturas Android con Manuel Vivo [DevRel Google] |EP 111

Podcast DevExperto

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2021 89:47


En esta ocasión contamos con una de las personas que más involucradas han estado en la actualización de la guía de arquitecturas Android. Vamos a ver qué novedades nos traen, charlaremos sobre el proceso de creación, y resolveremos las dudas de las personas que estén en el directo. Si quieres descargarte gratis mi guía de Arquitecturas Android, puedes hacerlo aquí: https://devexperto.com/guia-arquitecturas?utm_source=youtube?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=live-manuel-vivo

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Nader Dabit, DevRel at Edge and Node, joins us to talk about crypto, Web3, the Developer DAO, and The Graph - an indexing protocol for querying networks like Ethereum and IPFS. Links https://twitter.com/dabit3 https://www.youtube.com/NaderDabit https://thegraph.com (https://thegraph.com/en) https://solana.com https://hadriencroubois.com https://twitter.com/developer_dao https://twitter.com/saniyamore https://confirmsubscription.com/h/j/54CBD26EB3AE7C4B https://twitter.com/futurealisha https://www.youtube.com/FutureAlisha https://twitter.com/Amxx Review us https://ratethispodcast.com/podrocket Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup?pdr) Special Guest: Nader Dabit.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
Developer Tea with Jonathan Cutrell

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 14, 2021 45:44


Developer Tea is a podcast for developers designed to fit inside your tea break. Jonathan Cutrell started the podcast in 2015 and now has hosted over 1000 episodes. We interview Jonathan Cutrell about the early days of Developer Tea, Spec.fm, developer content, and more. Links https://jonathancutrell.com https://twitter.com/jcutrell https://spec.fm/podcasts/developer-tea https://designdetails.fm https://spec.fm https://twitter.com/chantastic https://developertea.com https://twitter.com/DeveloperTea https://www.charitynavigator.org Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today (https://logrocket.com/signup?pdr). Special Guest: Jonathan Cutrell.

Community Pulse
End of Year Wrap-up - 2021 (Ep 64)

Community Pulse

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2021 41:13


2021 has been a year of ups and downs in the world of DevRel and Community work. From the shifting quicksand of events returning in person, then virtual once again, to the massive opening of job reqs for positions under the DevRel umbrella, it's been a wild ride. We've also tried new things, both on the podcast and personally, and in this episode we will cover our perspectives on the year that was 2021. Links: * Sonder (https://seths.blog/2017/10/the-sonder-breakthrough/) * Top Episodes: * Online Community Platforms (http://www.communitypulse.io/58-online-community-platforms) (Jono Bacon, Noele Flowers) - Episode 58 * DevRel Content Channels (http://www.communitypulse.io/57-devrel-content-channels) (Cassidy Williams, Joe Karlsson) - Episode 57 * DevRel Around the World (http://www.communitypulse.io/59-devrel-around-the-world) - Episode 59 Send in your feedback! Hit us up on Twitter (https://twitter.com/community_pulse) or shoot us an email (info@communitypulse.io). Special shout-out to Sarah Allen for all of the hard work getting the new website up and running. Photo by Moritz Knöringer (https://unsplash.com/@mokngr?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) on Unsplash (https://unsplash.com/@mokngr?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/community-pulse/id1218368182?mt=2) and follow us on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3I7g5WfMSgpWu38zZMjet?si=565TMb81SaWwrJYbAIeOxQ), or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we're on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village.

Cashed Out
Laura is a GDP.

Cashed Out

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 10, 2021 53:10


Broberg, Paul, Laura, and JJ, talk about reInvent, Habachi grills, and how to cook for the holidays. oldschool tshirts Jason Hand reInvent Is your cat a psychopath? Tesla can play games while driving now Black Mirror Hibachi grill what do now? Ohio slogans NPM are Microsoft now, and package management Cooking for the holidays

The Swyx Mixtape
[Weekend Drop] Adam Argyle: Complexity Cliffs, DX, and the Disruption of Web Design

The Swyx Mixtape

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2021 70:06


The following is my conversation with Adam Argyle, CSS Developer Advocate for Google Chrome.Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/xEyJ6LY7DKIThe conversation covers a quite a few topics that are relevant in the webdev and web design industries: UI complexity cliffs, DX vs UX, Self Disruption, and what Web Design Tooling could be.Along the way we touch on what OpenUI is, Adam's Deferred Inputs proposal, the 4 Jobs of Developer Experience, Thoughtleading for Good from Emily Freeman, Ilya Grigorik, and Dion Almaier, and Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow!Links:  Button tweet https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1450333133300064259 https://open-ui.org/ https://jasonformat.com/application-holotypes/ https://siliconangle.com/2021/09/29/devops-dummies-author-emily-freeman-introduces-revolutionary-model-modern-software-development-awsq3/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar Ilya Grigorik Perf.now talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIfVPtN6io Visbug https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/visbug/cdockenadnadldjbbgcallicgledbeoc?hl=en https://web.dev/learn/ Timestamps:00:00:00 Cold open00:01:05 Complexity Cliffs and the Reusable Button Problem00:03:28 OpenUI00:04:32 DevRel vs Personal work00:05:52 DRY vs Design Systems00:07:10 Building in Phases00:08:04 Thought Leading for Good00:10:33 Learning00:14:13 The Surprising Complexity of Tabs00:17:12 What is Open UI?00:19:59 Hot Take: Deferred Inputs00:23:40 Cathedral vs Bazaar00:28:01 Illya Grigorik: Head/Torso/Tail00:32:45 UX vs DX00:45:51 4 Jobs of DX00:50:33 Self Disruption00:54:50 Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow01:01:04 VisBug01:05:05 Shameless PlugsTranscript swyx: Alright So the first thing we're talking about is ui complexity cliffs what's on your mind what was his first on your on your list. Adam Argyle: yeah you had a tweet the other day that was i'm at my fourth startup or something like this and we're pressing buttons again like, how s it 2021. swyx: And by guys Adam Argyle: Are popping up i needing refactoring or something like How are they not solved and. Adam Argyle: i'm sure you had threads of people that have their ideas there and mine was it's a omplexity cliff it's the first introduction, where you as a front end ui person who actually. Adam Argyle: is like goingto go build out all this matrix of states that a button needs that it lands on you it's like you've been in the car using a shifter this whole time using a steering wheel this whole time and then someone said hey. Adam Argyle: Go change the steering wheel out and you're like oh that's just a component just a single use like that things totally only got like one attachment right, and then you walk up to it and you start working on it you'd like. Adam Argyle: To see just like really integrated into the system. Adam Argyle: And or whatever right, you have these like discovery moments with it and you realize it's much more complex than it is in a button just does that buttons like yeah well let's allow an icon to be on our button and you're like okay left and right. Adam Argyle: sides can be I can have both sides because you could have a shopping cart with a little drop down arrow. Adam Argyle: Oh man Okay, and you have to have dark mode you better have this and that and that the matrix like i've seen the of states, is what I mean by this complexity cliff like it's just not visible from the surface, it looks all innocent. Adam Argyle: And then you go map it like if you mapped out everything you need it's it's a lot, like the CSS alone that it takes to have like a custom button and the design system is absurd it's absurd, but at the same time I love it anyway. swyx: So this is the tweet and question and honestly like this is this is genuine because. swyx: yeah I had that to Sigma away, where I had my first front end job and then modify and now it's immoral same stuff again and all did you handle disabled Oh, is it a link, or is it a button. swyx: And it was interesting was also just the replies like Nicole from Google So what does she do she like. Adam Argyle: beats I worry record directly. Adam Argyle: These days, she was on frameworks and she's now shifted to ui and sort of like how did she empower people to build flexible and fluid interfaces on the web. Adam Argyle: And that's why she points to open your eyes it's like a community for that, but anyway that i'm part of her team because i'm I work on similar things. swyx: Okay yeah and so like you know, first of all I didn't I didn't expect this to reach anyone in Google. swyx: But then also like the Web components people reached out to me and they're like how come work a foreign service officer for you and i'm like it's not about the tech. swyx: it's more about like understanding the specs of what people wanted people not agreeing what a button should do. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Google cloud had had too many. Adam Argyle: They had them in multiple frameworks in the same. Adam Argyle: repo right being like just because they grew so fast or whatever like your project always gets out of hand and all of a sudden yeah you have more than one button. Adam Argyle: which some people have enough time or England one, how are they going to wrinkle two or three and built in different frameworks right you could your islands architecture with buttons you're just like oh snap touch mean any button from any framework just shows up in an island. swyx: that's an interesting discussion is that a big. swyx: Is the islands architecture, a big discussion within Google, or because I always have hard I have trouble separating Jason from Jason Miller, who wrote the article architecture markers. swyx: When is he talking in his own personal capacity, or when is he saying like No, this is something we're tight with thinking about a Google. Adam Argyle: Oh, in my opinion Jason and I are pretty straight shooters about our own stuff like we work for Google and chrome and we love our job, and we want to represent chrome well and do all the things our job want us to do, but we have this like I don't know where our own personal opinion like. swyx: jake Archibald as to he. Adam Argyle: he's working on a lot of his own stuff we kind of balance, both I mean Jason definitely does things internally that he might not have chosen to go do if he just could choose whatever he wants to do. Adam Argyle: But that doesn't mean that's what he's going to go pitch outside of Google and the islands architectures. Adam Argyle: yeah This is just sort of the micro friends evolution into let's eventually docker eyes every component and then manage them with communities in the front end right we'll get there, I don't know. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Well, so the this discussion of the reusable button and the ui complexity cliff makes me wonder because there's a lot of discussion about how dry is overrated you know. swyx: We should we should write everything twice and sometimes if you're just customizing it so often you're reusing it so much maybe just don't reuse code just just copy and paste and then that makes it easy to the really easy to modify the only thing that. swyx: That goes wrong with that so whenever you need to do a global update then you'd run into trouble, but how often do you really need to do that. Adam Argyle: Right isn't that what the super RAD typescript refactor button is for like that's why you typed your whole thing, so that you could refactor across something globally, I mean this is a value prop of typescript right. Adam Argyle: If you are, you know, employing it that way, on your project but yeah I think that's a really good point, though, is that sometimes you don't need to build a mega button yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah mega buttons get built and then mega buttons fall down. swyx: And also wonder if it's like. swyx: If it should be gated by number of people working on the project, so we had at my first company. swyx: Three front end developers and we were building both the design system and the APP. swyx: And I was just like maybe we should build the APP and forget the design system. Adam Argyle: Okay, this is actually something i've said multiple times is that. Adam Argyle: projects and people are in phases, a startup is in a phase. Adam Argyle: And in your first phase where you're in the creation state, you should not be in typescript you should not be hardening all of your stuff with hundred percent test coverage and you should be not be making a design system which you need to do. Adam Argyle: Is build a really good experience that's messy and expressive. Adam Argyle: And then go hard and all the things that are tried and. Adam Argyle: True, because you can't predict it all, and if you try to sit down and predict it all and. Adam Argyle: and build this like perfect thing from the start you'll just never going to get to the point at which it should have as fast as you can it's weird we think we move faster with all of these rules, and all this stuff but we end up moving way slower. Adam Argyle: And so yeah i'd say phase two of your company. Adam Argyle: let's say you have success in your sustainable and it's time to like rethink something, because you can need to grow, the team by 10 or 15 or whatever. Adam Argyle: Go ahead and spend a few months and and refactor and harden and create the components that are obvious like and don't go micromanager design system okay wait i'm getting wrapped up sorry okay anyway. swyx: No, I think, look like you have this i've seen you do this rant a couple times. swyx: I think he needs to slap a fancy label on it and then put it put into a nice graphic and go like this is the way that you should do things because I have you seen i'm Emily freeman. swyx: At aws she did she basically had some issues with the software, the traditional software development lifecycle where it's like a very waterfall approach and shows you V shaped it into like a. swyx: Like a circular concentric circle grid with the six dimensions and it made a lot of sense for some people. swyx: But that at least encoded her opinion and she could give it a name and and she she said, like this is the way you do things now, and she had whole spiel on it, but like. swyx: Sometimes it's better to sell an idea or like a workflow if you give it a name and you put some put some diagrams on it and make it a thing, rather than repeating the rent every time. Adam Argyle: yeah and so yeah, this is the phases ranger mentioning like yeah. swyx: yeah catchy acronym or like you know, whatever. swyx: And and yeah I mean you know sea islands architecture was a catchy catchy name for it, you know. swyx: It was yeah was your last name, he had for. Adam Argyle: A holiday types right, it was holotype. swyx: hollow times, I never heard that word before. Adam Argyle: So cool yeah. Adam Argyle: that's what that's what Jason called it in an article, he was, oh no he was saying, your APP is one of these holiday types. Adam Argyle: And if you were yes certain holotype he could lead well to you know, an islands architectural river. swyx: yeah very good so Basically, this is like part of my long running a study on how the thought leader or thought leading for fun and profit, you know there's like sort of the cynical thought leading, which is like hey I want you to buy my ebook. swyx: But then there you can also follow me for for benefit if, like you really have a cause that you just really want to align people on, you have to package, it in a message that that people can spread for you, instead of you, having to do all the work. Adam Argyle: Totally yeah I think you're doing a good job with that being a thought leader, by the way, I very much enjoy your thoughts. swyx: I don't know what i'm meeting people to. Adam Argyle: I mean, I think that's what's fun as you're on an exploration constantly digging. Adam Argyle: And going to these archives and you're just kind of shooting it out, as it happens, and honestly that's kind of all, I do with my CSS tips i'm building stuff every day, almost all day and so i'm like here's it I just did this thing this is cool I think anyway. Adam Argyle: Yes, what else will and. swyx: I will say, like the thing about CSS like no one ever feels like you know all of it. swyx: Do you think that's a problem. Adam Argyle: No, I think that's how every language feels. swyx: So i've been trying to. swyx: push back on this little because I think being able to say, this is the entire map like Okay, you know, there is a spec right. swyx: And it's not an infinite list it's a finite list, and you can you can at least kind of draw like here's the world map, you will never visit. swyx: The entire world, but at least you know, like okay here's a comment here there's a comment there I haven't gone there yet, but it's there when I need it. swyx: At least like having boundaries around like Okay, the world ends ends here and. swyx: I think that's an interesting way to think about like learning or evangelizing something, and this is relevant for me, because at my job. swyx: We have a fairly complex system, and no one had ever enumerated the features until I went through and just went like Okay, we have 30 features and once you know these 30 features that's about it for the system. swyx: and being able to say that's it. swyx: And, and having an end to your learning I think it's a really interesting concept to have. Adam Argyle: yeah docs kind of give you that sense right you land on docs and you're like I have the world in my hands every API call and every function is. Adam Argyle: articulated here with every parameter yeah and I definitely see where you're going, I think that can help someone. Adam Argyle: Get perspective of the language that they're jumping into but there's like surprises right like you learn javascript for who cares how long and then all of a sudden someone goes, you heard of functional programming you. Adam Argyle: Like what and then you go look at you like, what are you doing with javascript and then it will. swyx: Stop. Adam Argyle: you're bringing it to infinity right and then like typescripts the same way you're like I thought I was like I liked were new like javascript and. Adam Argyle: In typescript just tells me all day that I have no idea what I know, and you know, like. Adam Argyle: CSS is the same way i've been studying and building things in it for a long time and I I also am a human, you know some of these things are so big that I can't memorize every map and territory. swyx: So I revisit in and. Adam Argyle: So I think what happens with experience is that you know, like okay every programming language has a moment where you're banging your head against it, you know whether it's FLEX box or it's. Adam Argyle: You know, some extends in typescript or something that's extending extend extend and you're just like lost in the extension world like in these scenarios you eventually emerge. Adam Argyle: Right you bust out. Adam Argyle: In your head comes popping out and you get a breath of air and you're like. Adam Argyle: I have defeated it like and what I think professional developers are they're just seasoned at defeating all the little things in so much that they're now in a perspective, where they expect things to pop up that they're not going to know. Adam Argyle: But be they've if they run into things that they run into before. Adam Argyle: They don't have the same hour or four hours or two days that it takes to solve it, they just walk right over it, because they're like oh that was in that territory over here. Adam Argyle: I remember like two years ago, when I had to go there, like i'll just go there, I don't remember everything about it. Adam Argyle: But i'll go read it and study and be like oh yeah that was it okay and i'll put that back in the 70s, like every time he's intersection observer i'm like I know in your section observer and then i'm like I don't remember the syntax I gotta go look it up so. Adam Argyle: Anyway, yeah. swyx: And they basically, I just want to copy and paste intersection observer code and just give me like the three or four design patterns that work and that's about it that's that's all people want out of it. Adam Argyle: Section observer, I mean I think people want the matrix I think they want to stick a thing in the back of their neck. Adam Argyle: And, just like CSS I know it, I will now command every box in the way that i've ever desired. swyx: yeah. Adam Argyle: Briefly, though, before we get off of complexity cliffs well the first components that reminded me of complexity cliffs was the tabs component. Adam Argyle: And we've been talking about that, so we talked about Nicole already, and so one of the things we're trying to do is make tabs on the web. Adam Argyle: easier and in my studies, I have found that it's a massive complexity cliff like there's 100 variants of what tabs are more than that, over the years we've seen thousands of variants of tabs. Adam Argyle: And they all have little niche features some little niche features, make a tabs feel like a carousel some tabs kind of feel like an accordion. Adam Argyle: Some tabs feel like those paper tabs you had in a binder and they all have this like little thing and they all have different accessibility implications and usually. Adam Argyle: that's like the deciding factor, at least, like open ui they're like okay here's what tabs are tabs are basically this accessibility ux as a foundation, like the skeleton of the thing works like this, but I go look in the wild. Adam Argyle: And I see all of these different tabs and i'm excited by it and it kind of frustrates other people, because they want to go harden the pattern right, this is what. Adam Argyle: The button is trying to do it's like hard and a pattern and so people want to harden these patterns, they they look so obvious to harden and then I go research and I basically called him Kara tabs now i'm like oh tablet cells you mean oh CARA tabs. Adam Argyle: you're like no tabs. Adam Argyle: i'm like care tabs. Adam Argyle: Because the variations are so fun and exciting and I actually think that's what the web is excelling at is this weirdness is that. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so, but the complexity cliff is very clear in tabs where there is really no single way to build one that would fulfill every tabs component needs that's out there. Adam Argyle: Like a lot of tabs have nothing to do with swiping when I think that's mandatory on like mobile you gotta be able to swipe between tabs. Adam Argyle: we've been trained that way for like five years but they would disagree, like the open ui organization because that's just not part of the. Adam Argyle: float anyway, so what i'm getting at is these complexity cliffs make it really hard to harden things and i'm at a point where i'm trying to study which ones are on which side of the cliff Sean that's what I want to know. Adam Argyle: Because the ones that are on the side that it just goes steep downhill I think it's okay to let those be free ship primitives and let people be weird. Adam Argyle: Let people build all these fun different exciting tabs like I don't i'm not that interested in that, but we could move into different inputs, if you want as that that next topic. swyx: I have a two things to ask you, before you do this so one thing you seem to have a image in your head about complexity cliffs have you visualize this because I feel like it's an analogy, that is right for visualization. Adam Argyle: know I mean it'd be an iceberg you looking at a button and it looks like a simple button on top, and then you look under the water and you're like holding this thing has like request animation frame loops in it, or something you're like I just did not predict that. swyx: yeah I think I think some visuals will be nice to for people to really is totally get it. swyx: And then, secondly, could you introduce for those who would like i've dug around open ui it seems like a basically it tries to be a browser vendor agnostic. swyx: spec have you here's how here's extensions to standard html well how about you do, how about you help me define like what is open ui who runs it, what is the near term like should people pay attention is now is it's just an r&d phase like what what's uh what phases it isn't it. Adam Argyle: Sure yeah and you know you should have unit on because she's a member of the open ui. Adam Argyle: cabinet, I have no idea anyway it's a Community group it operates like a Community group. Adam Argyle: it's led by I think Greg whitworth maybe Brian cartel also. Adam Argyle: Dave Rupert is on it also he does a lot of presentations Dave Rupert is a he's pro tabs not pro tab excel he has a spicy accordion that he's made that is basically tabs but it's. Adam Argyle: Not tabs it's a spicy accordion anyway okay so that's the sort of things that sometimes get talked about it open your eyes, but their goal is to. Adam Argyle: move faster as an agnostic implementation team, then what browsers would do and how can they operate like how the community groups do for CSS but do it for components. Adam Argyle: And so they have one that's like a recent success, I think, and it's taken a long time to get there, which is the POP over component, if you heard about the POP over component. swyx: know if I can pull it up, you can tell me about it. Adam Argyle: awesome it's cool it's classic you mouse or you focus into a link and you get a pop up right. swyx: This is it, this one. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: And so, this took a long time to get through it has tons of you can see that they are very look it's an editor's draft Oh, they have three and editors draft interesting, so the select element is also there, I know that my working on that one so something that's sustainable select. Adam Argyle: And I bet you that dependent on the pop up. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so i'm not a super pro hear about how they operate, but I do know that their goals are to make accessible well defined open source community group driven web components, I think their web components. Adam Argyle: And yeah and eventually I think their goal is to have those things accepted into browser specs and how browsers implement them natively maybe i'm not really sure. Adam Argyle: Where that goes from there, oh look, you can see mason freed on there for pop up he's the Google or who's doing a lot of implementation and he's on the group there to Melanie richards awesome. Adam Argyle: yeah it's got a great crew of cats that are like hacking on it, they they're diligent they seem passionate and i'm not a Member. Adam Argyle: Because i'm kind of. Adam Argyle: I don't know if we need more primitives. Adam Argyle: Sean. Adam Argyle: I want to, it is a heartache and i've talked to Brian and a couple other people about what look like i'm actually. Adam Argyle: So this is why the fruit inputs as an interesting conversation. Adam Argyle: I like to swing for the fences i'd like to swing a lot bigger. Adam Argyle: Okay, so, for example, let's say open ui or someone else and open you I seriously, I admire them so much, I think there is a really important and impressive thing that they're doing so I think i'm also just intimidated, but anyway. Adam Argyle: What I would like to suggest is okay consider the calendar so maybe a calendar component gets you know standardized so you could customize it you don't just get the 20 year old dinky one it's in your browser I. Adam Argyle: hate that one it drives me nuts and like she's the leads there's No one. Adam Argyle: else and. swyx: there's one that's worse than that it's the number number input. swyx: You know, with a small. swyx: tiny arrows. swyx: Oh, my. Adam Argyle: God seriously I don't know someone on a netbook with like one of those. Adam Argyle: mini mouse's or something anyway. Adam Argyle: Okay, so imagine this Sean This is my crazy idea called deferred inputs you put an input in there type equals date and you put an attribute called deferred on it, and what the browser does when they user temps that input. Adam Argyle: Is they broker a relationship between that webpage and a third party widget. Adam Argyle: And a third party experience, because what I want when I click on a calendar widget is not just a stupid calendar Sean I want my events on there. Adam Argyle: I want to know if what i'm picking is going to interrupt or something if i'm booking dinner I need to know. Adam Argyle: All of these different cases I want to know my stuff in there, but I don't want the webpage to know anything about it so imagine for a second that we went to the APP store MAC os and we installed. Adam Argyle: A calendar component called Google calendar who cares or maybe it's icon right account makes sense for safari to prompt. Adam Argyle: So you get these different inputs, with a broker, since the request to this APP and says this user is requesting a date All we want is a string format it like this, give them an experience that's rich and set and has a session and you're logged into. Adam Argyle: And let them pick a date and then we'll just get the date back so the date input is still just a static text input, but the browser brokered a relationship to third party. Adam Argyle: developers who can create specific and robust experiences for these inputs so i'm not talking we just, you know as a group. Adam Argyle: come up with a cool date picker that people can pass custom properties to to silent, I think that's a great stopgap but i'd love to see us like make a rich. Adam Argyle: Do picking a date is a rich experience moment it's something that people can excel at and show you how beautiful, it is like imagine sunrise like that APP they made the calendar thing that just like disrupted every time they made one and then imagine someone else. Adam Argyle: Now you had choices Sean you had choices for your date input as a user that's what I want to see, I want to see users, having the ability and I want developers to build a compete for the. Adam Argyle: Creation of those widget experiences I think browsers have been sitting on it and it drives me NUTS they're crappy and it looks like they don't care so just open it up. Adam Argyle: Just broker the relationship to a bunch of developers that want to get a $2 components, so that you can have a session logged in calendar picker like. Adam Argyle: in any way, so a lot of these inputs that are a lot of these components that we're waiting for. Adam Argyle: that are more robust that we need more out of like some of our primitives i'm like don't just give us some new crappy primitive that looks like crap. Adam Argyle: I just i'm tired of those like give us an opportunity and an open up the open up the industry to a new monetization flow like you're basically creating third party developer anyway, whatever Sean I think i've pitched it enough what, what do you think is that crazy. swyx: So I need to clarify one more thing so first of all, have you written this up anywhere. Adam Argyle: This is a slides I have like a little presentation and i'm giving it to people it's just it's pretty much can we find it somewhere. swyx: Just just so people can follow up if they want. Adam Argyle: I think it's just a random idea I have songs and like you know. swyx: I mean I if you know if you you believe this so. swyx: What this this kind of conversation always reminds me of the cathedral versus the bizarre. swyx: You know that Nice that a Fred brooks this is this is old school software development right like, how do you design it ecosystem, do you want, do you want to say, like I do it for you, because I know best, or do you want to say I don't know best, and that everyone just have it out. swyx: And so open your eyes kind of the cathedral and they're like Okay, a little research everything and then we'll we'll pick the best way, that is, the superset of everything and then. swyx: The bizarre it's kind of like this different input approach where it's just like I don't know and i'll just give you a single extension point and you guys go nuts. Adam Argyle: yep that's exactly what it's basically just be what I call them. Adam Argyle: Because they have an android or an intent the. Adam Argyle: input basically admitted intent. Adam Argyle: And it says, who can handle the intent right. Adam Argyle: And all these developers now have Apps living on your operating system that the browser can broker the intent, was it says. Adam Argyle: it's just like how intense it's actually extremely modeled after, then the mobile experience of. swyx: Intense. Adam Argyle: Because I love that experience it's really nice you're just like yeah look at all my fun custom stuff I have they can handle where my image goes like that's really nice. Adam Argyle: And yeah we should have a color picker like that, like give me the opportunity to click on a color and put in I bring my own color picker to the table chrome. swyx: You know so. swyx: I don't know yours yeah. swyx: Is this the user so. Adam Argyle: there's a few personas yeah there's user. swyx: APP developer, and then the user viewing the site so each viewer has like their own experience of this thing okay. Adam Argyle: They got. Adam Argyle: A utility built of personalized widgets in their browser so anywhere their browsers logged in and. swyx: How many of these are there. Adam Argyle: I mean a perfect kind of labeled a few here. Adam Argyle: yeah calendar auto fill payment. Adam Argyle: photo picker and file picker oh photo picker and file picker already done, is what this says in my deck I haven't looked at my deck and like a year. Adam Argyle: Because yeah if you think about photo picker. Adam Argyle: Well, I guess, on mobile it's different but on desktop it's not right on mobile when you click on a file uploader you click on some things allows you to upload you get to fulfill it with your own choice of an APP your phone. Adam Argyle: Your personal stuff just needs to return an image right, and then the browser doesn't have to know to care about the whole experience that it took you to find it because you went back three years on June 24. Adam Argyle: To find the hamburger that you were looking for right like anyway yeah so auto fill would be an awesome one and payment like why can't I just install a third party payment installation thing and. swyx: When I so i'm. Adam Argyle: Pay yeah invokes my own experience. swyx: Well, what about security like if it's a third party widget and it's payment like i'm giving you my card details. Adam Argyle: User installed it, and so there, hopefully they're trusting what they installed and that the page itself is only getting results back so it's like the same static results they would have got before. Adam Argyle: So the page doesn't get to know anything about the third party experience there's like a very it's just a message that's going to get passed back and forth him. swyx: And do you think so, one example of this, that is done in user land is essentially password managers. swyx: Like a right they they override all the password fields and then they've given their own little things why can't it just be done like that. Adam Argyle: Oh so like an extension model. Adam Argyle: sounds good to me so yeah you could as a developer go build a whole bunch of really awesome you know extensions built on the extension version three manifest and deploy them across all the browsers and. Adam Argyle: deliver a unique logged in experience for color picking and sure yeah maybe you could intercept those clicks and invoke your own overlay ui actually makes sense to me. swyx: Okay got it so it sounds like you know of those things that you missed it those are inputs. swyx: There are a lot of things there a lot of components that are not inputs. swyx: And I guess open you I would be involved. Adam Argyle: Like tabs carousels pop overs yeah. swyx: So you're not in conflicts, you know. Adam Argyle: I don't think so yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Okay, and both can coexist, they could create a new date picker and that should be the default, we need better date pickers so better default components anyway so yeah i'm like this isn't me trying to stop them it's like I just think there's a whole opportunity for competition, like. Adam Argyle: yeah and it could be cool yeah. swyx: One one last thing that comes up when when we talk about image speakers. swyx: Did you ever see that talk by ilya regard about. swyx: The image picker up like file size optimizer. Adam Argyle: I don't think so tell me all about it. swyx: So he had a fantastic talk, which, like really shaped the way I think about so okay oh God, I can give me a SEC to pull this up Okay, because. swyx: I don't I don't think i'm gonna do this justice. swyx: Unless I literally have it up. swyx: What is his Twitter handle he's not super active on Twitter. Adam Argyle: it'll yet some. swyx: I Google org. Adam Argyle: Oh, I was wrong. swyx: Okay, all right. swyx: All right, here we go so. swyx: This is where this is where I shouted it out, he had this concept of the. swyx: The head the torso and the tail. swyx: and swyx: It was like, how do we solve. swyx: How do you solve image performance forever right like you can do some fancy stuff with like. swyx: Your image optimizing cdn you can do all these like source set things no one's going to do it, it just is too complex like yeah it's cool and you should feel bad if you don't do it right, but also there's just too much to learn. Adam Argyle: Serving images is very hard yeah it's hard. swyx: So, like he was fee fantastically broke it down to like okay so he's he's at this performance now conference right and he said. swyx: Okay yeah here we go. swyx: I like I just I just love how clearly stated this if you want to solve the image problem once and for all the cost should be free, the number of choices should be zero the tools must do the work not require work. swyx: Right now, the tools that we're being given require more work hey the default sucks but just to be backward compatible here's a source at thing with like five different options and hey you got to do image processing on your own good that. swyx: That requires work, so people don't do it right, so the kind of person that goes to a performance now conference that watches performance videos in their free time, that is what he calls the head. swyx: That and i'm not finding a slide but essentially like there's a there's an adoption curve right there's there's the really like performance oriented performance minded people. swyx: who are going to adopt all the best practices they're going to listen to your target have read your blog posts, then the torso they're like they're just you know, following whatever the. swyx: Body says, and then and then there's a long tail that just will never read anything they'll just do whatever this is easiest So you see, if you want real impact, you have to address the torso under the tail not just the head, because the head. swyx: Has the time to this to learn all your stuff but that's not the problem, the problem is the rest of it, like everyone else. swyx: Sorry, I think i'm like doing doing things the job of. Adam Argyle: Now I think i'm following yeah. swyx: So so his proposal by the end of his talk, and this is like in 2019 was that okay all right image optimizing cdn too complicated set too complicated. swyx: Never just never upload a giant file that you never giant photo that you never need so he was like let's introduce an image uploaded a component that has image optimization built into that that point of upload so all points down the chain just never get there. swyx: I thought that was like that this I thought that was where you were going I don't know if you talk to them before about this. swyx: Okay. Adam Argyle: I have not. Adam Argyle: That kind of reminds me of ink ink uploader which I used I don't know, five years ago, or so it was kind of like early image X server but yeah you upload the biggest image, you had and then request it with one URL. Adam Argyle: And maybe some parameters on the URL and you get you could get a whole dynamics of the images back yes. Adam Argyle: And only had to deal with the one image tag and yeah yeah well that's the way forward motion. swyx: that's an image optimizing cdn. swyx: So you have to pay money for that and, of course, like you know that that. swyx: Costs of engineering resources, so he wanted to go a little bit more than that, I don't know how practical it was, but it was very convincing at the time. swyx: And you know I hope he I don't know if he's still a Google or not, but you know. Adam Argyle: He is yeah. swyx: He gets some sway in the design of this thing. Adam Argyle: Nice yeah I like that analogy, though, I think that works really good. swyx: Which is I mean it's so in a broader context of Dev developer tools and like designing for us versus the exercise next topic. swyx: yeah. swyx: I think about this a lot, which is that whenever we appear at conferences and we like dropping you blog posts and new feature and we just expect people to like. swyx: know about it and learn about it and adopt it like within a year, otherwise it's their fault not yours and i'm just like no people don't have time. swyx: Most people just want to know, like what the best practices they're going to do that and then they'll they'll move on with their day and that's about all the time that they have for you. swyx: And, and so, if we want to you know, improve user experience like we have to make it basically bring this for people to adopt the best practice. Adam Argyle: yeah so we can yeah do you want to start there like. Adam Argyle: yeah that's The goal of the phrase, or like that's like the. Adam Argyle: The the heartfelt meaningful good side of the phrase that dx can lead to good ux is the intent is there, which is that people want to deliver good ux and they're not wrong that good dx can deliver a portion or maybe a lot of ux. Adam Argyle: But I think that the phrase is kind of not doing itself a favor like it's it's kind of a short sighted view of what dx is versus a short sighted view of ux and i'm like. Adam Argyle: I don't even know why we're so okay so first off let's just say that to have dx it even could facilitate good ux someone had to teach the dx what good ux was like ux had to start it. Adam Argyle: In order, like be the initial cause for dx to exist, that it was knowledgeable to give you good ux so i'm like. Adam Argyle: wow is people think the dx just magically gives good you actually had to be written by somebody like the good ux was created and someone spent valuable time thinking about good ux. Adam Argyle: In order to bake it into something that could be shared better that then helped facilitate a workflow which is just like how like a bakery it would work right you just got like okay we've got all these processes they're working like this. Adam Argyle: And now we're going to always use this flower instead of have random flowers and we're always going to use this scoop or something like that, and you just start to like. Adam Argyle: harden these things over time, so that when new people join they don't have to go learn there's three scoops there's just one scoop now to choose from, and every time those decisions get made like they're made in a good faith that, like us, like the bakers, are trying to make more. Adam Argyle: You know muffins or something for everybody, like the ux is eating a muffin. Okay. Adam Argyle: That. Adam Argyle: Essentially you can. Adam Argyle: overdo it, just like in a design system, you can overdo it so where eventually maybe you make a factory maybe you've got you know, and this happens all the time and code we build tons of factories to stamp out web pages to stamp this out to stand we'd love our automation. Adam Argyle: And sometimes automation. Adam Argyle: All it does is harden one good ux choice and it might make subsequent ux choices harder. Adam Argyle: in any way so okay so then here i'm going to go back to like the like dx is so much more than providing good ux like there's so much more to it, like you can have an entire. Adam Argyle: day's worth of dx that never touches ux and that should be fine like you should be happy with that, because what you're trying to do is empower everyone after you. Adam Argyle: or whatever it is like I think it's valuable time so basically I think it's short sighted dx to think that it can only be valuable if it's affecting ux I don't think that even needs to. Adam Argyle: go away. Adam Argyle: And then. Adam Argyle: Right, I think dx it's like you could do anyway so dx can be entirely in a whole other sector of the organization and never changed the ux and I don't think that's bad. Adam Argyle: I think sometimes it can in consequently change ux and that's awesome sometimes it can intentionally do it, you know, maybe data, the data Center team over here. Adam Argyle: They switch to a different cluster system and now they're you know shaped 50 milliseconds off a request or whatever you're like cool the user might feel that or whatever. Adam Argyle: But then also ux it's short citing what ux is if you've ever met a ux designer. Adam Argyle: To them, the user experiences and how fast the milliseconds went down the wire, even though this is part of the user experiences how fast you got it to them. Adam Argyle: They spend weeks and months researching users to make informed decisions about ux. Adam Argyle: it's so to think that dx can just magically have all of that, I mean unless the designers are baking and they're the ones, creating the dx maybe dx is directly affecting us. Adam Argyle: But really I think ux starts with research it doesn't start with good dx you have to you have to know what good ux is spend time on it. Adam Argyle: and actually create it before you can then go harden it and make it like repeatable and shareable or whatever it is, and also ux is just so much more than. Adam Argyle: That moment the button downloaded and you pressed it so it's like belittling. Adam Argyle: The whole concept of ux and dx at the same time it's a comparison that doesn't even really matter like here's another thing too. Adam Argyle: Is you can have the worst dx in the world let's say you can only ssh into this one server you have no tools you're just with vim and it's like an. Adam Argyle: insane react project you don't even have web pack, you have to go edit the output of a bundle let's say that who knows. Adam Argyle: dude a determined ux person will do whatever it takes to make the ux good they'll go hack that code it doesn't matter the dx will matter, what matters is the desire that someone had. Adam Argyle: And you know, conversely, you could have like the best dx the entire world and deliver a button that says fart. Adam Argyle: Because the text in a button bro. Adam Argyle: is part of ux man there's ux writers that's All they do is provide text so maybe if you're dx or your button was so RAD that you could like. Adam Argyle: A new button and then you drop it in, and it has a whole suggestion of ux written content in it like I don't think you're really getting the full fledge. Adam Argyle: Delivery of ux because it's so contextual it's so subjective it's so human that. Adam Argyle: All you get from dx in terms of ux is anything that's on rails and anything you get from dx that can lead to good ux usually can because good ux sourced into the dx that then change the ux so I just don't. Adam Argyle: it's just like i'm like i'm not sure everyone's trying to say other than I think you know, which is, I said at the beginning i'm like I see the initial goal here, which is like hey if you have. Adam Argyle: really great tools, it can make it easier to slice some bread and put butter on it and then now you have slice butter way faster, you know, like look at us and we made a process for it, and now we can do 10 breads and 10 butters. Adam Argyle: In a parallel right we're gatsby and now we're doing parallel bread's buttered. Adam Argyle: Right until the designer says oh we're not using butter or new new butter and peanut butter and everyone's like Oh, we made a factory for that last process you're like dude users want peanut butter now too so. Adam Argyle: Are you have to update all the dx to match the new ux. Adam Argyle: So that's kind of what I see I think it's almost like ux is equal to dx which could trickle down to ux again early that's the intent, and so I just don't. Adam Argyle: know why we. Adam Argyle: don't talk about the full cycle and I don't know why we want to belittle the two concepts like ux is more than just developers. Adam Argyle: Building buttons and forms and flows and stuff like that there's a whole team of ux designers that they are literally fighting your company to have good ux. Adam Argyle: And I just that's why I think a lot of designers don't retweet the dx is better than us, or that dx will lead to good ux designers just know that they're at the table every day. Adam Argyle: arguing with somebody that they need to refactor this because it's not good user experience and the person over there is going move I see all your research, and I see you did user studies. Adam Argyle: I just can't allocate the resources and meanwhile they've got a team of 10 people increasing the dx of the backend system over here right and they're just not funding. Adam Argyle: The ux so anyway, I can just see like all these different sides to it and i'm. Adam Argyle: i'm just not it just doesn't do anyone to favor it's not doing dx a favor like it's not it, if anything, it kind of like makes dx look like the hero to I think that's my biggest issue with it, it makes dx look like it's The thing that lead to good ux i'm like. Adam Argyle: No, it doesn't it. Adam Argyle: Never anyway so i'm like it's not the hero. Adam Argyle: The hero here is. Adam Argyle: Having good ux like that's what everyone wants is, could you X dx steals the show and that freezing. Adam Argyle: And it's just so anyway i'm mostly annoyed with it and i'm like it's just it's based on like these couple of paths like people we look at this dx lead do that, like that's one path of 1000 that you'll take and building a product that has good ux. Adam Argyle: sure your dx lead to good ux there congratulations just don't praise that phrase like it's going to solve all of your ux problems. swyx: It is not. Adam Argyle: The responsible party for good choices ux focused individuals are the ones that make the good ux choices. Adam Argyle: and get funnel those through dx and background or whatever. Adam Argyle: So I just think it's missing the point and always. Adam Argyle: How do you feel. swyx: know why you know why we hear so much about it. swyx: it's because the ux people have nothing to sell you where's the dx people have something to sell you. swyx: there's a there's an economic incentive to drive things. Adam Argyle: yeah dx is the hottest phrase to get your product recognized right now that's for sure how. swyx: Do you think so, do you think the term is tarnished now you think it's so. No. swyx: No it's. Adam Argyle: tarnished to me, but no it's still hot, as ever, you kidding. swyx: it's my it's my it's my fault either mentally so my job titles literally had to develop experience. swyx: And I don't know if I want to. swyx: associate myself so closely with this thing. Adam Argyle: Oh, really, oh dear, I mean hey dude I associate myself with CSS how many people want to do that. swyx: I think it's amazing that would you that I think that una una or like my like I idolize you guys so much because. swyx: Oh no way be able to advocate for CSS Hello like. swyx: it's just it's just so first of all, you have to be good at, you have to be like really good at both of you are actually really great. swyx: But also just you're advocating for something that everyone can use so there's nothing to sell you it's just like you already have this and. swyx: Like 90% of you are terrible at it, or like you could be better, you know let's put it politically correctly, so I mean I think it's great I CSS will be around longer than both of us will be around, and I think it's. swyx: No one I don't know every everyone can always use a bit more CSS and their life. swyx: I need a CSS shirt, by the way. Adam Argyle: I could probably figure that out i'll send you a link later. swyx: it's just funny right like you know they're they're like 100 different js cons and like maybe I don't know if i've ever seen the CSS COM. Adam Argyle: There is yeah and I think. Adam Argyle: There was one of really popular one for five years and Europe and it's spread there was like once happening in other. Adam Argyle: continents, but it's I think kind of I don't know the conferencing is shaken up recently but yes. Adam Argyle: Yes, she's definitely underdog, and all this stuff. swyx: I mean I yeah so I mean I was really encouraged when he joins and then you started putting out a really good stuff and I just I think Google does something right when you when you hire developer relations, I don't know what it is, but. swyx: Every every person I see it's just stellar. Adam Argyle: To Dr Mayer dion has. swyx: I have. Adam Argyle: An emotion is he responsible addiction yeah he's the one who saw me. Adam Argyle: Like I anyway yeah he pretty much pulled me out of the team, I was at and Google and was like hey you want to do this over here and chrome and I was like I idolize you all I couldn't do that he's like you're one of us would you like to be like. Adam Argyle: Okay, and he totally believed in me and. Adam Argyle: gave me lots of chances and was and yeah i'm and I think there's lots of so he left recently a couple months. swyx: yeah shopify. Adam Argyle: shopify and you could tell he shattered people like there were people that were like dion was like. swyx: A. Adam Argyle: Different person he was someone I was emotionally. Adam Argyle: engaged with he has this amazing ability to listen and anyway, what what a great leader and manager, he was and he had he has some sort of skill I don't you know you'd have to ask him how he. swyx: knows asking. Adam Argyle: Someone and how we can judge people but yeah he's got a talent there. swyx: I you know I had so I went to boulder recently, and I think he is like just just outside builder or something and. swyx: I had lunch with him and he never he's so humble he never brings this up he's just like yeah I like I like tech like you know I think shopify school, you know he never talks about like how he runs. swyx: His Oregon how he how he thinks about hiring. swyx: Interesting guy interesting. Adam Argyle: Interesting guy and he just curious his candor so well. Adam Argyle: yeah but hey back to the dx says, like a job title, I do think it's still important, I just a and that's what i'm saying I don't think the phrase does your job, justice, like it's making dx sound like it's only valuable if it is impacting ux and i'm like that's not the case. Adam Argyle: You can integrate our developers to save hundreds of hours a week and and maybe never touches the ux and who cares you just still saved hundreds of ours, like, why is the value of dx somehow hinting. Adam Argyle: on its ability to hang on so we're getting more ranchi again why is yeah just doesn't like it's not doing it justice like it wants dx to be respected, and like it already is. Adam Argyle: So why push. Adam Argyle: This is like it's best moment to like. swyx: yeah whatever, so I think you know just just because you're you're interested in this i've been defining it in. swyx: In maybe like four ways, so the first this API design because. swyx: That is that every everything is downstream of like did you did you design the right abstraction right like the same thing that you're doing with different inputs and stuff like that. swyx: And then second of all docs for for that API right, you have to. swyx: be able to find it first of all, it needs to have full coverage everything that is in your API should be locatable and then it should be anticipatory like tell me what i'm going to need before I know about it, which is a high bar. swyx: But like. Adam Argyle: No, I like that's like visiting a docs page and it's already got my keys in it like I don't have to go find my keys it knows i'm writing. Adam Argyle: and looking at the docks and it. Adam Argyle: But yeah. swyx: To me that's just like template this template of docs I mean everyone can do that, you know, like it's. swyx: It is, it is, it is good people do do enjoy that but I always want to have an opinion, like Okay, you know you have like two required options and five not required options, but this is recommended in these situations, and this is only for power users tell me that. swyx: In the docs before before letting me go on configure it on my own so that's what i'm trying to do with our docs and then the last part is, if I have a done for you, the last word is. swyx: Three yeah right. swyx: Okay, so so there's there's developer relations, which is like traditional. swyx: Content creation is like teach me how to do stuff. swyx: Do tutorials do beaten, I mean. Adam Argyle: hype man. swyx: hype it up hype man yeah and then the last part is community which basically like do you have a place to go to ask questions and how how much you know. swyx: Like can you get a job in this is there, like a training is there, like career progression do I see myself identifying with this technology as a career like. swyx: There are lots of technologies in our lives there's only a certain technologies that we choose to call to like say like I am a developer, I am a reactor developer that that means something that's over and above just the the particular library and framework that you use. swyx: I don't know if I should do that I don't know if I should be so expensive and say like oh yeah communities part of this, too, but also it kind of is. Adam Argyle: It definitely is it's something that I tried and I still try to focus on by having open office hours doing the AMA is. Adam Argyle: I try to reach out and yeah that's why I do conferences, I like to do I don't think I can effectively do my job. Adam Argyle: If i'm not connecting to the Community, because otherwise i'm living in a bubble and i'm not putting my shoes on that are uncomfortable for me like I need to be constantly putting on shoes of other people to have my own perspective. Adam Argyle: shaped well and then it makes me a better educator It makes me better at all these other roles yeah. Adam Argyle: it's that it's included. swyx: it's my that's my map of developer experience so far and i'm trying to implement that. Adam Argyle: awesome that sounds very amicable and it sounds like you have four pillars and everything at Google ends up being in four pillars. Adam Argyle: So, congratulations on. swyx: Google the coming. swyx: weeks to come in threes I don't know. Adam Argyle: Three is a little more catchy huh yeah. swyx: Wait so what's an example of the thing is that that's four pillars at Google. Adam Argyle: let's see if I can I don't know if I could remember one right now but it's like anytime a leader is presenting like. swyx: there's always. Adam Argyle: One slide that's got like four pillars of our beliefs or whatever and you're like come on this is just a template slide everyone slaps and they go. Adam Argyle: Oh, this was some crap. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so we tease it every time we see it we're like there's the pillars. swyx: I mean it, this is the whole thing about draw the map right like like I want to know, like where do I end, because if you just say it's all the things I don't have to. swyx: do with that, but if I have covered like the big macro is kind of like your your meal right like when you're when you're eating you want to make sure you're taking care of your big macros and in you you're roughly like you're going to survive. swyx: So. swyx: Nice yeah it's kind of how I think about should we talk about self disruption. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Alright, so tell me about what this what this is and what prompted it actually. Adam Argyle: Okay, and let's see what prompted it. swyx: was just something like not innovating or was it. Adam Argyle: That was just me making a comparison yeah I was apple and their new machines. Adam Argyle: It was. Adam Argyle: Chris cormier sharing a CSS tricks article about alternative browsers based on chromium that are offering unique can express of experiences. Adam Argyle: It was me reflecting on opera when they tried to do this with opera next as like a self disrupted browser implementation, it was really cool it's like bubbles every town was pretty neat. Adam Argyle: And I just was like started I just started thinking about it, I was like in tech okay it's like as a naive implemented right because i'm pretty much swinging the hammer on the engine every day like i'm constantly. Adam Argyle: In the House, making sure the door handles are shiny and open easy like this is what I mean by like being a ux developer like i'm just going around and making sure. Adam Argyle: That it all flows and i'm like in my head i'm like if we had tons of money and this thing was just so successful you know what I would do is I would roll that all into like a labs team. Adam Argyle: That made it so that I made the next generation of house like let's quit hacking on these same houses, we have it up, we have a great process and it's all hunky dory but at the same time, like we're out putting a factory looking thing. Adam Argyle: And, and we seem to be happy and proud about it, we are but i'm like okay So for me I got really confused i'm like I would, if I had all this money and success. Adam Argyle: Roll it entirely into disrupting myself into the next coolest thing, because now I don't have to have the same stresses, I did the first time, the first time, when I made my product, I was fighting right and you were pushing you had this ideal in this mentality. Adam Argyle: And i'd want to live that again, and what I don't see happening is companies do that I see chrome browser what is it 10 or 15 years old. Adam Argyle: It looks kind of the same has a ton of new features under the hood but i'm like this is a very unexciting user experience but that's probably fine that's fine for mainstream application and yeah you don't want to go to so anyway, I like I understand why. Adam Argyle: it's risky to try to self disrupt but at the same time, I made the adobe comparison with you i'm like 20 years of success of photoshop. Adam Argyle: And yet there's still like every three years, a new design tool popping up that. Adam Argyle: turns everyone's head away and is almost it always feels next gen when it shows up sketch showed up everyone freaked out three years later we'll freaked out over Sigma three years later we freak out over xd. Adam Argyle: And and yeah they're like they're disrupting photoshop but photoshop not disrupting itself like why can't they just sit back and be like we've got hundreds of thousands of dollars and lots of. Adam Argyle: developers let's pivot everything until like V2 of this thing and just rocket into the future, you know, like let's do what everyone actually wants, instead of just repeating. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so that that was the thought process and I was like why. Adam Argyle: Like Sean why don't more people roll their success Okay, because they do this in business right if you get a big fat success in your bitcoin output, or what I don't know like you roll your money back into a bigger investment and you roll it again. Adam Argyle: But they don't seem to do that with their products it's almost like it gets big they get. Adam Argyle: Rich they get not inspired anymore, and their focus has changed and they're no longer in that mindset of. Adam Argyle: Building the best product there now and then they're just in a new phase right and i'm like yeah, but you can be in the new face and invest in like another disruptive face right like now, you have the funds for it and that's what. it's all coming from yeah. swyx: A lot of thoughts on that. swyx: First of all, wasn't so wasn't xd doesn't actually count because it's also from adobe. Adam Argyle: I would argue it's of this is so rude of me to say is pretty much a fig macloan. Adam Argyle: yeah and it's great I love xd In fact I like it better than figure you. swyx: want them to innovate, the end of the day, I want them to. Adam Argyle: here's what I want photoshop to do with all their money and all their fantastic developers is make an actual web design tool like a real. Adam Argyle: represent tool and stop messing around with 20 year old style gradient makers and all this old crap that you've been carrying around like shed all that baggage go something straight up web focused and just. Adam Argyle: chew that crap off and just spec centric design tool, something that actually like has html elements in it, it helps designers facilitate something that is like more oriented towards a real thing instead of continuing to yeah. swyx: So we're flow like I mean. Adam Argyle: Yes, sure yeah so they so web flow chart it does disrupt the design market right big building like a web centric and web focused and spec focused design tool. Adam Argyle: And yeah i'm like why doesn't adobe look at that and go Okay, we need to do the same, we need to have. Adam Argyle: Our own version of this with our name on it we've got the funds we've got the people like they. Adam Argyle: See like from the outside, they have everything they need to do it like I look at Google, the same way i'm like look at chrome like they have all the money and all the people they need to make another version that's just incredible. Adam Argyle: And just does something fresh. Adam Argyle: But yet they're not and so yeah I was mentioning to you it's like ego it's just like to Polish turds apparently, so I think that's just kind of what happens is your ego grows. Adam Argyle: And you're like you, your smuggle I think I think what happens, this is success turns a lot of teams into some eagles and they sit and go my. swyx: Precious. Adam Argyle: yeah and they just. Adam Argyle: They just stroke, the ring and don't do anything new, with it, or whatever, and I guess that doesn't make sense, because they're. Adam Argyle: Not sitting on a pile of money, but anyway, you get what i'm saying. swyx: What adobe sitting on a pile of money, I definitely vouch for them for doing that, if they're like a 200 when I last looked at them like five years ago there, like a 60 billion like like decent size and now they're like 240 billion and. i'm just. swyx: To create like this, you think you think you know these companies, and then they they just blow past any form of expectation. swyx: Okay, so a couple couple things on this, so one is you know I had, I had a APP that I updated you know there's a I have 200 Apps probably on my phone, they do not update. swyx: You know why I don't update them because they may they may change and i'm scared of change, they work fine for me right now. swyx: And I updated one of them and yeah now like the old ux is gone and I can't get it back yeah so sometimes like don't fix what he broke, you know, like if I rely on this from a living in my business tools like. swyx: It just makes sense to just keep it for the others who will a very you have it, that that means something you know what I mean like that. swyx: That lack of change actually is a feature sometimes but yeah I mean obviously innovation is helpful, he did not want them to produce a Sigma clone I get it. swyx: they're probably looking at building a workflow or by workflow is both they're both totally possible but I don't think it's proven itself, yet I don't think like designers have like flocked to web flow like they have to figure. Adam Argyle: they've been distracted with yeah design systems and components third. Adam Argyle: Design tools are competing competing in that space to you know, make an API for all your tokens if you make your art boards like this put your squares like this and give them a name and you'll output, an API blah blah blah. Adam Argyle: yeah they're over there, turning their wheels hard. Adam Argyle: digging holes yeah my opinion yeah. swyx: Well, so Okay, and then there's also the fact that, like. swyx: It I think it takes a few years for a product to season. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: And, and like photoshop just you know I think it's not like there's like the Web version or creative cloud or whatever like that hasn't been that been around that long and it takes. swyx: A long time to reach like the mass population again, this is the whole concept of like you're in the head you evaluated all these tools and they came out you're like you know the difference between them, most people don't. swyx: Most people like hear about them like five years after they're out because, like that's what that's how long it takes to like hear about things you know from your friends and stuff. swyx: So you're you're wanting innovation at a pace that, like most of the country, your most the most of the industry doesn't operate on so I just want you to norm yourself. Like. swyx: Because you're at the cutting edge of a lot of things. swyx: Like and maybe it feels like the companies are not kee

Under the Hood of Developer Marketing
Content for developers with Raphael Mun

Under the Hood of Developer Marketing

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 2, 2021 42:56


Theme of the week "How do you create content developers love?" Content marketing is a key tool marketers use to increase the awareness of their product, help their users find answers to common questions and solve problems. What happens when the content becomes problematic and instead of solving problems, it creates more? Raphael Mun joined us to talk about content. Here are the topics we covered.  How are developers' content expectations different from that of a non-technical audience? How? Why does “typical” content marketing fall flat with this audience? What ticks developers off?  What do developers want from a content piece? What makes a content piece engaging?  What's the format that most developers prefer? Reinventing the wheel? What aspects of “typical” content marketing still successfully apply to developers? What should your marketing team do to produce content the developers will love? And more! https://www.devrelx.com/podcast (Listen to this episode) to better understand what developers expect from the content you produce. Let's talk Data! This is the graph we discuss with Raphael: https://www.devrelx.com/trends?lightbox=comp-kisqhm6d3__85a0f937-9ce5-419d-959a-80fd18ac461b_runtime_dataItem-kisqhm6e (Developer Team Leads are calling the shots) Raphael Mun has worked on 10 different startups and worked with many more, finding product-market fit, architecting and building products and developing partnerships, and growing their user base through various lean marketing strategies. He has also authored numerous expert-level articles and content on AI, Cloud, and Best Practices. https://www.futuredeveloper.io/ (Join the Future Developer Summit Episode 4 on December 8: The evolution of Developers and DevRel) https://devecon.typeform.com/to/Q9WqxzJN (We want to make this podcast better for you! Take a few minutes to take our short survey.)

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
Work-life balance with Jason Lengstorf

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2021 41:28


Jason Lengstorf joins us to talk about his role as VP of Developer Experience at Netlify, building corporate communities, live streams, and how to avoid burnout. Listen now. Links https://twitter.com/jlengstorf https://www.learnwithjason.dev https://www.netlify.com https://www.partycorgi.com https://explorers.netlify.com https://jamstack.org/community https://www.jason.af Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Jason Lengstorf.

Screaming in the Cloud
The “Banksgiving” Special with Tim Banks

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 25, 2021 34:54


About TimTim's tech career spans over 20 years through various sectors. Tim's initial journey into tech started as a US Marine. Later, he left government contracting for the private sector, working both in large corporate environments and in small startups. While working in the private sector, he honed his skills in systems administration and operations for large Unix-based datastores. Today, Tim leverages his years in operations, DevOps, and Site Reliability Engineering to advise and consult with clients in his current role. Tim is also a father of five children, as well as a competitive Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. Currently, he is the reigning American National and 3-time Pan American Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu champion in his division.TranscriptCorey: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats v-u-l-t-r.com slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by something new. Cloud Academy is a training platform built on two primary goals. Having the highest quality content in tech and cloud skills, and building a good community the is rich and full of IT and engineering professionals. You wouldn't think those things go together, but sometimes they do. Its both useful for individuals and large enterprises, but here's what makes it new. I don't use that term lightly. Cloud Academy invites you to showcase just how good your AWS skills are. For the next four weeks you'll have a chance to prove yourself. Compete in four unique lab challenges, where they'll be awarding more than $2000 in cash and prizes. I'm not kidding, first place is a thousand bucks. Pre-register for the first challenge now, one that I picked out myself on Amazon SNS image resizing, by visiting cloudacademy.com/corey. C-O-R-E-Y. That's cloudacademy.com/corey. We're gonna have some fun with this one!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn joined by Principal Cloud Economist here at The Duckbill Group Tim Banks. Tim, how are you?Tim: I'm doing great, Corey. How about yourself?Corey: I am tickled pink that we are able to record this not for the usual reasons you would expect, but because of the glorious pun in calling this our Banksgiving episode. I have a hard and fast rule of, I don't play pun games or make jokes about people's names because that can be an incredibly offensive thing. “And oh, you're making jokes about my name? I've never heard that one before.” It's not that I can't do it—I play games with language all the time—but it makes people feel crappy. So, when you suggested this out of the blue, it was yes, we're doing it. But I want to be clear, I did not inflict this on you. This is your own choice; arguably a poor one. We're going to find out.Tim: 1000% my idea.Corey: So, this is your show. It's a holiday week. So, what do you want to do with our Banksgiving episode?Tim: I want to give thanks for the folks who don't normally get acknowledged through the year. Like you know, we do a lot of thanking the rock stars, we do a lot of thanking the big names, right, we also do a lot of, you know, some snarky jabs at some folks. Deservingly—not folks, but groups and stuff like that; some folks deserve it, and we won't be giving them thanks—but some orgs and some groups and stuff like that. And I do think with that all said, we should acknowledge and thank the folks that we normally don't get to, folks who've done some great contributions this year, folks who have helped us, helped the industry, and help services that go unsung, I think a great one that you brought up, it's not the engineers, right? It's the people that make sure we get paid. Because I don't work for charity. And I don't know about you, Corey. I haven't seen the books yet, but I'm pretty sure none of us here do and so how do we get paid? Like I don't know.Corey: Oh, sure you have. We had a show on a somewhat simplified P&L during the all hands meeting because, you know, transparency matters. But you're right, those are numbers there and none of that is what we could have charged but didn't because we decided to do more volunteer work for AWS. If we were going to go down that path, we would just be Community Heroes and be done with it.Tim: That's true. But you know, it's like, I do my thing and then, you know, I get a paycheck every now and then. And so, as far as I know, I think most of that happens because of Dan.Corey: Dan is a perfect example. He's been a guest on this show, I don't know it has as aired at the time that this goes out because I don't have to think about that, which is kind of the point. Dan's our CFO and makes sure that a lot of the financial trains keep running on time. But let's also be clear, the fact that I can make predictions about what the business is going to be doing by a metric other than how much cash is in the bank account at this very moment really freed up some opportunity for us. It turned into adult supervision for folks who, when I started this place and then Mike joined, and it was very much not an area that either one of us was super familiar with. Which is odd given what we do here, but we learned quickly.The understanding not just how these things work—which we had an academic understanding of—but why it mattered and how that applies to real life. Finance is one of those great organizations that doesn't get a lot of attention or respect outside of finance itself. Because it's, “Oh, well they just control the money. How hard could it be?” Really, really hard.Tim: It really is. And when we dig into some of these things and some of the math that goes and some of what the concerns are that, you know, a lot of engineers don't really have a good grasp on, and it's eye opening to understand some of the concerns. At least some of the concerns at least from an engineering aspect. And I really don't give much consideration day to day about the things that go on behind the scenes to make sure that I get paid.But you look at this throughout the industry, like, how many of the folks that we work with, how many folks out there doing this great work for the industry, do they know who their payroll person is? Do they know who their accountant team is? Do they know who their CFO or the other people out there that are doing the work and making sure the lights stay on, that people get paid and all the other things that happen, right? You know, people take that for granted. And it's a huge work and those people really don't get the appreciation that I think they deserve. And I think it's about time we did that.Corey: It's often surprising to me how many people that I encounter, once they learn that there are 12 employees here, automatically assume that it's you, me, and maybe occasionally Mike doing all the work, and the other nine people just sort of sit here and clap when I tell a funny joke, and… well, yes, that is, of course, a job duty, but that's not the entire purpose of why people are here.Natalie in marketing is a great example. “Well, Corey, I thought you did the marketing. You go and post on Twitter and that's where business comes from.” Well, kind of. But let's be clear, when I do that, and people go to the website to figure out what the hell I'm talking about.Well, that website has words on it. I didn't put those words on that site. It directs people to contact us forms, and there are automations behind that that make sure they go to the proper place because back before I started this place and I was independent, people would email me asking for help with their bill and I would just never respond to them. It's the baseline adult supervision level of competence that I keep aspiring to. We have a sales team that does fantastic work.And that often is one of those things that'll get engineering hackles up, but they're not out there cold-calling people to bug them about AWS bills. It's when someone reaches out saying we have a problem with our AWS spend, can you help us? The answer is invariably, “Let's talk about that.” It's a consultative discussion about why do you care about the bill, what does success look like, how do you know this will be a success, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that make sure that we're aimed at the right part of the problem. That's incredibly challenging work and I am grateful beyond words, I don't have to be involved with the day-in, day-out of any of those things.Tim: I think even beyond just that handling, like, the contracts and the NDAs, and the various assets that have to be exchanged just to get us virtually on site, I've [unintelligible 00:06:46] a couple of these things, I'm glad it's not my job. It is, for me, overwhelmingly difficult for me to really get a grasp and all that kind of stuff. And I am grateful that we do have a staff that does that. You've heard me, you see me, you know, kind of like, sales need to do better, and a lot of times I do but I do want to make sure we are appreciating them for the work that they do to make sure that we have work to do. Their contribution cannot be underestimated.Corey: And I think that's something that we could all be a little more thankful for in the industry. And I see this on Twitter sometimes, and it's probably my least favorite genre of tweet, where someone will wind up screenshotting some naive recruiter outreach to them, and just start basically putting the poor person on blast. I assure you, I occasionally get notices like that. The most recent example of that was, I got an email to my work email address from an associate account exec at AWS asking what projects I have going on, how my work in the cloud is going, and I can talk to them about if I want to help with cost optimization of my AWS spend and the rest. And at first, it's one of those, I could ruin this person's entire month, but I don't want to be that person.And I did a little LinkedIn stalking and it turns out, this looks like this person's first job that they've been in for three months. And I've worked in jobs like that very early in my career; it is a numbers game. When you're trying to reach out to 1000 people a month or whatnot, you aren't sitting there googling what every one of them is, does, et cetera. It's something that I've learned, that is annoying, sure. But I'm in an incredibly privileged position here and dunking on someone who's doing what they are told by an existing sales apparatus and crapping on them is not fair.That is not the same thing as these passive-aggressive [shit-tier 00:08:38] drip campaigns of, “I feel like I'm starting to stalk you.” Then don't send the message, jackhole. It's about empathy and not crapping on people who are trying to find their own path in this ridiculous industry.Tim: I think you brought up recruiters, and, you know, we here at The Duckbill Group are currently recruiting for a senior cloud economist and we don't actually have a recruiter on staff. So, we're going through various ways to find this work and it has really made me appreciate the work that recruiters in the past that I've worked with have done. Some of the ones out there are doing really fantastic work, especially sourcing good candidates, vetting good candidates, making sure that the job descriptions are inclusive, making sure that the whole recruitment process is as smooth as it can be. And it can't always be. Having to deal with all the spinning plates of getting interviews with folks who have production workloads, it is pretty impressive to me to see how a lot of these folks get—pull it off and it just seems so smooth. Again, like having to actually wade through some of this stuff, it's given me a true appreciation for the work that good recruiters do.Corey: We don't have automated systems that disqualify folks based on keyword matches—I've never been a fan of that—but we do get applicants that are completely unsuitable. We've had a few come in that are actual economists who clearly did not read the job description; they're spraying their resume everywhere. And the answer is you smile, you decline it and you move on. That is the price you pay of attempting to hire people. You don't put them on blast, you don't go and yell at an entire ecosystem of people because looking for jobs sucks. It's hard work.Back when I was in my employee days, I worked harder finding new jobs than I often did in the jobs themselves. This may be related to why I get fired as much, but I had to be good at finding new work. I am, for better or worse, in a situation where I don't have to do that anymore because once again, we have people here who do the various moving parts. Plus, let's be clear here, if I'm out there interviewing at other companies for jobs, I feel like that sends a message to you and the rest of the team that isn't terrific.Tim: We might bring that up. [laugh].Corey: “Why are you interviewing for a job over there?” It's like, “Because they have free doughnuts in the office. Later, jackholes.” It—I don't think that is necessarily the culture we're building here.Tim: No, no, it's not. Specially—you know, we're more of a cinnamon roll culture anyways.Corey: No. In my case, it's one of those, “Corey, why are you interviewing for a job at AWS?” And the answer is, “Oh, it's going to be an amazing shitpost. Just wait and watch.”Tim: [laugh]. Now, speaking of AWS, I have to absolutely shout out to Emily Freeman over there who has done some fantastic work this year. It's great when you see a person get matched up with the right environment with the right team in the right role, and Emily has just been hitting out of the park ever since he got there, so I'm super, super happy to see her there.Corey: Every time I get to collaborate with her on something, I come away from the experience even more impressed. It's one of those phenomenal collaborations. I just—I love working with her. She's human, she's empathetic, she gets it. She remains, as of this recording, the only person who has ever given a talk that I have heard on ML Ops, and come away with a better impression of that space and thinking maybe it's not complete nonsense.And that is not just because it's Emily, so I—because—I'm predisposed to believe her, though I am, it's because of how she frames it, how she views these things, and let's be clear, the content that she says. And that in turn makes me question my preconceptions on this, and that is why she has that I will listen and pay attention when she speaks. So yeah, if Emily's going to try and make a point, there's always going to be something behind it. Her authenticity is unimpeachable.Tim: Absolutely. I do take my hat's off to everyone who's been doing DevRel and evangelism and those type of roles during pandemics. And we just, you know, as the past few months, I've started back to in-person events. But the folks who've been out there finding new way to do those jobs, finding a way to [crosstalk 00:12:50]—Corey: Oh, staff at re:Invent next week. Oh, my God.Tim: Yeah. Those folks, I don't know how they're being rewarded for their work, but I can assure you, they probably need to be [unintelligible 00:12:57] better than they are. So, if you are staff at re:Invent, and you see Corey and I, next week when we're there—if you're listening to this in time—we would love to shake your hand, elbow bump you, whatever it is you're comfortable with, and laud you for the work you're doing. Because it is not easy work under the best of circumstances, and we are certainly not under the best of circumstances.Corey: I also want to call out specific thanks to a group that might take some people aback. But that group is AWS marketing, which given how much grief I give them seems like an odd thing for me to say, but let's be clear, I don't have any giant companies whose ability to continue as a going concern is dependent upon my keeping systems up and running. AWS does. They have to market and tell stories to everyone because that is generally who their customers are: they round to everyone. And an awful lot of those companies have unofficial mottos of, “That's not funny.” I'm amazed that they can say anything at all, given how incredibly varied their customer base is, I could get away with saying whatever I want solely because I just don't care. They have to care.Tim: They do. And it's not only that they have to care, they're in a difficult situation. It's like, you know, they—every company that sizes is, you know, they are image conscious, and they have things that say what like, “Look, this is the deal. This is the scenario. This is how it went down, but you can still maintain your faith and confidence in us.” And people do when AWS services, they have problems, if anything comes out like that, it does make the news and the reason it doesn't make the news is because it is so rare. And when they can remind us of that in a very effective way, like, I appreciate that. You know, people say if anything happens to S3, everybody knows because everyone depends on it and that's for good reason.Corey: And let's not forget that I run The Duckbill Group. You know, the company we work for. I have the Last Week in AWS newsletter and blog. I have my aggressive shitposting Twitter feed. I host the AWS Morning Brief podcast, and I host this Screaming in the Cloud. And it's challenging for me to figure out how to message all of those things because when people ask what you do, they don't want to hear a litany that goes on for 25 seconds, they want a sentence.I feel like I've spread in too many directions and I want to narrow that down. And where do I drive people to and that was a bit of a marketing challenge that Natalie in our marketing department really cut through super well. Now, pretend I work in AWS. The way that I check this based upon a public list of parameters they stub into Systems Manager Parameter Store, there are right now 291 services that they offer. That is well beyond any one person's ability to keep in their head. I can talk incredibly convincingly now about AWS services that don't exist and people who work in AWS on messaging, marketing, engineering, et cetera, will not call me out on it because who can provably say that ‘AWS Strangle Pony' isn't a real service.Tim: I do want to call out the DevOps—shout out I should say, the DevOps term community for AWS Infinidash because that was just so well done, and AWS took that with just the right amount of tongue in cheek, and a wink and a nod and let us have our fun. And that was a good time. It was a great exercise in improv.Corey: That was Joe Nash out of Twilio who just absolutely nailed it with his tweet, “I am convinced that a small and dedicated group of Twitter devs could tweet hot takes about a completely made up AWS product—I don't know AWS Infinidash or something—and it would appear as a requirement on job specs within a week.” And he was right.Tim: [laugh]. Speaking of Twitter, I want to shout out Twitter as a company or whoever does a product management over there for Twitter Spaces. I remember when Twitter Spaces first came out, everyone was dubious of its effect, of it's impact. They were calling it, you know, a Periscope clone or whatever it was, and there was a lot of sneering and snarking at it. But Twitter Spaces has become very, very effective in having good conversations in the group and the community of folks that have just open questions, and then to speak to folks that they probably wouldn't only get to speak to about this questions and get answers, and have really helpful, uplifting and difficult conversations that you wouldn't otherwise really have a medium for. And I'm super, super happy that whoever that product manager was, hats off to you, my friend.Corey: One group you're never going to hear me say a negative word about is AWS support. Also, their training and certification group. I know that are technically different orgs, but it often doesn't feel that way. Their job is basically impossible. They have to teach people—even on the support side, you're still teaching people—how to use all of these different varied services in different ways, and you have to do it in the face of what can only really be described as abuse from a number of folks on Twitter.When someone is having trouble with an AWS service, they can turn into shitheads, I've got to be honest with you. And berating the poor schmuck who has to handle the AWS support Twitter feed, or answer your insulting ticket or whatnot, they are not empowered to actually fix the underlying problem with a service. They are effectively a traffic router to get the message to someone who can, in a format that is understood internally. And I want to be very clear that if you insult people who are in customer service roles and blame them for it, you're just being a jerk.Tim: No, it really is because I'm pretty sure a significant amount of your listeners and people initially started off working in tech support, or customer service, or help desk or something like that, and you really do become the dumping ground for the customers' frustrations because you are the only person they get to talk to. And you have to not only take that, but you have to try and do the emotional labor behind soothing them as well as fixing the actual problem. And it's really, really difficult. I feel like the people who have that in their background are some of the best consultants, some of the best DevRel folks, and the best at talking to people because they're used to being able to get some technical details out of folks who may not be very technical, who may be under emotional distress, and certainly in high stress situations. So yeah, AWS support, really anybody who has support, especially paid support—phone or chat otherwise—hats off again. That is a service that is thankless, it is a service that is almost always underpaid, and is almost always under appreciated.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: I'll take another team that's similar to that respect: Commerce Platform. That is the team that runs all of AWS billing. And you would be surprised that I'm thanking them, but no, it's not the cynical approach of, “Thanks for making it so complicated so I could have a business.” No, I would love it if it were so simple that I had to go find something else to do because the problem was that easy for customers to solve. That is the ideal and I hope, sincerely, that we can get there.But everything that happens in AWS has to be metered and understood as far as who has done what, and charge people appropriately for it. It is also generally invisible; people don't understand anything approaching the scale of that, and what makes it worst of all, is that if suddenly what they were doing broke and customers weren't built for their usage, not a single one of them would complain about it because, “All right, I'll take it.” It's a thankless job that is incredibly key and central to making the cloud work at all, but it's a hard job.Tim: It really is. And is a lot of black magic and voodoo to really try and understand how this thing works. There's no simple way to explain it. I imagine if they were going to give you the index overview of how it works with a 10,000 feet, that alone would be, like, a 300 page document. It is a gigantic moving beast.And it is one of those things where scale will show all the flaws. And no one has scale I think like AWS does. So, the folks that have to work and maintain that are just really, again, they're under appreciated for all that they do. I also think that—you know, you talk about the same thing in other orgs, as we talked about the folks that handle the billing and stuff like that, but you mentioned AWS, and I was thinking the other day how it's really awesome that I've got my AWS driver. I have the same, like, group of three or four folks that do all my deliveries for AWS.And they have been inundated over this past year-and-a-half with more and more and more stuff. And yet, I've still managed—my stuff is always put down nicely on my doorstep. It's never thrown, it's not damaged. I'm not saying it's never been damaged, but it's not damaged, like, maybe FedEx I've [laugh] had or some other delivery services where it's just, kind of, carelessly done. They still maintain efficiency, they maintain professionalism [unintelligible 00:21:45] talking to folks.What they've had to do at their scale and at that the amount of stuff they've had to do for deliveries over this past year-and-a-half has just been incredible. So, I want to extend it also to, like, the folks who are working in the distribution centers. Like, a lot of us here talk about AWS as if that's Amazon, but in essence, it is those folks that are working those more thankless and invisible jobs in the warehouses and fulfillment centers, under really bad conditions sometimes, who's still plug away at it. I'm glad that Amazon is at least saying they're making efforts to improve the conditions there and improve the pay there, things like that, but those folks have enabled a lot of us to work during this pandemic with a lot of conveniences that they themselves would never be able to enjoy.Corey: Yeah. It's bad for society, but I'm glad it exists, obviously. The thing is, I would love it if things showed up a little more slowly if it meant that people could be treated humanely along the process. That said, I don't have any conception of what it takes to run a company with 1.2 million people.I have learned that as you start managing groups and managing managers of groups, it's counterintuitive, but so much of what you do is no longer you doing the actual work. It is solely through influence and delegation. You own all of the responsibility but no direct put-finger-on-problem capability of contributing to the fix. It takes time at that scale, which is why I think one of the dumbest series of questions from, again, another group that deserves a fair bit of credit which is journalists because this stuff is hard, but a naive question I hear a lot is, “Well, okay. It's been 100 days. What has Adam Selipsky slash Andy Jassy changed completely about the company?”It's, yeah, it's a $1.6 trillion company. They are not going to suddenly grab the steering wheel and yank. It's going to take years for shifts that they do to start manifesting in serious ways that are externally visible. That is how big companies work. You don't want to see a complete change in direction from large blue chip companies that run things. Like, again, everyone's production infrastructure. You want it to be predictable, you want it to be boring, and you want shifts to be gradual course corrections, not vast swings.Tim: I mean, Amazon is a company with a population of a medium to medium-large sized city and a market cap of the GDP of several countries. So, it is not a plucky startup; it is not this small little tech company. It is a vast enterprise that's distributed all over the world with a lot of folks doing a lot of different jobs. You cannot, as you said, steer that ship quickly.Corey: I grew up in Maine and Amazon has roughly the same number employees as live in Maine. It is hard to contextualize how all of that works. There are people who work there that even now don't always know who Andy Jassy is. Okay, fine, but I'm not talking about don't know him on site or whatever. I'm saying they do not recognize the name. That's a very big company.Tim: “Andy who?”Corey: Exactly. “Oh, is that the guy that Corey makes fun of all the time?” Like, there we go. That's what I tend to live for.Tim: I thought that was Werner.Corey: It's sort of every one, though I want to be clear, I make it a very key point. I do not make fun of people personally because it—even if they're crap, which I do not believe to be the case in any of the names we've mentioned so far, they have friends and family who love and care about them. You don't want someone to go on the internet and Google their parent's name or something, and then just see people crapping all over. That's got to hurt. Let people be people. And, on some level, when you become the CEO of a company of that scale, you're stepping out of reality and into the pages of legend slash history, at some point. 200 years from now, people will read about you in history books, that's a wild concept.Tim: It is I think you mentioned something important that we would be remiss—especially Duckbill Group—to mention is that we're very thankful for our families, partners, et cetera, for putting up with us, pets, everybody. As part of our jobs, we invite strangers from the internet into our homes virtually to see behind us what is going on, and for those of us that have kids, that involves a lot of patience on their part, a lot of patients on our partners' parts, and other folks that are doing those kind of nurturing roles. You know, our pets who want to play with us are sitting there and not able to. It has not been easy for all of us, even though we're a remote company, but to work under these conditions that we have been over the past year-and-a-half. And I think that goes for a lot of the folks in industry where now all of a sudden, you've been occupying a room in the house or space in the house for some 18-plus months, where before you're always at work or something like that. And that's been a hell of an adjustment. And so we talk about that for us folks that are here pontificating on podcasts, or banging out code, but the adjustments and the things our families have had to go through and do to tolerate us being there cannot be overstated how important that is.Corey: Anyone else that's on your list of people to thank? And this is the problem because you're always going to forget people. I mean, the podcast production crew: the folks that turn our ramblings into a podcast, the editing, the transcription, all of it; the folks that HumblePod are just amazing. The fact that I don't have to worry about any of this stuff as if by magic, means that you're sort of insulated from it. But it's amazing to watch that happen.Tim: You know, honestly, I super want to thank just all the folks that take the time to interact with us. We do this job and Corey shitposts, and I shitpost and we talk, but we really do this and rely on the folks that do take the time to DM us, or tweet us, or mention us in the thread, or reach out in any way to ask us questions, or have a discussion with us on something we said, those folks encourage us, they keep us accountable, and they give us opportunities to learn to be better. And so I'm grateful for that. It would be—this role, this job, the thing we do where we're viewable and seen by the public would be a lot less pleasant if it wasn't for y'all. So, it's too many to name, but I do appreciate you.Corey: Well, thank you, I do my best. I find this stuff to be so boring if you couldn't have fun with it. And so many people can't have fun with it, so it feels like I found a cheat code for making enterprise software solutions interesting. Which even saying that out loud sounds like I'm shitposting. But here we are.Tim: Here we are. And of course, my thanks to you, Corey, for reaching out to me one day and saying, “Hey, what are you doing? Would you want to come interview with us at The Duckbill Group?”Corey: And it was great because, like, “Well, I did leave AWS within the last 18 months, so there might be a non-compete issue.” Like, “Oh, please, I hope so. Oh, please, oh, please, oh, please. I would love to pick that fight publicly.” But sadly, no one is quite foolish enough to take me up on it.Don't worry. That's enough of a sappy episode, I think. I am convinced that our next encounter on this podcast will be our usual aggressive self. But every once in a while it's nice to break the act and express honest and heartfelt appreciation. I'm really looking forward to next week with all of the various announcements that are coming out.I know people have worked extremely hard on them, and I want them to know that despite the fact that I will be making fun of everything that they have done, there's a tremendous amount of respect that goes into it. The fact that I can make fun of the stuff that you've done without any fear that I'm punching down somehow because, you know it is at least above a baseline level of good speaks volumes. There are providers I absolutely do not have that confidence towards them.Tim: [laugh]. Yeah, AWS, as the enterprise level service provider is an easy target for a lot of stuff. The people that work there are not. They do great work. They've got amazing people in all kinds of roles there. And they're often unseen for the stuff they do. So yeah, for all the folks who have contributed to what we're going to partake in at re:Invent—and it's a lot and I understand from having worked there, the pressure that's put on you for this—I'm super stoked about it and I'm grateful.Corey: Same here. If I didn't like this company, I would not have devoted years to making fun of it. Because that requires a diagnosis, not a newsletter, podcast, or shitposting Twitter feed. Tim, thank you so much for, I guess, giving me the impetus and, of course, the amazing name of the show to wind up just saying thank you, which I think is something that we could all stand to do just a little bit more of.Tim: My pleasure, Corey. I'm glad we could run with this. I'm, as always, happy to be on Screaming in the Cloud with you. I think now I get a vest and a sleeve. Is that how that works now?Corey: Exactly. Once you get on five episodes, then you end up getting the dinner jacket, just, like, hosting SNL. Same story. More on that to come in the new year. Thanks, Tim. I appreciate it.Tim: Thank you, Corey.Corey: Tim Banks, principal cloud economist here at The Duckbill Group. I am, of course, Corey Quinn, and thank you for listening.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Screaming in the Cloud
Breaking the Tech Mold with Stephanie Wong

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2021 45:02


About StephanieStephanie Wong is an award-winning speaker, engineer, pageant queen, and hip hop medalist. She is a leader at Google with a mission to blend storytelling and technology to create remarkable developer content. At Google, she's created over 400 videos, blogs, courses, and podcasts that have helped developers globally. You might recognize her as the host of the GCP Podcast. Stephanie is active in her community, fiercely supporting women in tech and mentoring students.Links: Personal Website: https://stephrwong.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/stephr_wong TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats v-u-l-t-r.com slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. And—let me be clear here—it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free, you can do things like run small scale applications or do proof-of-concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free, no asterisk. Start now. Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. One of the things that makes me a little weird in the universe is that I do an awful lot of… let's just call it technology explanation slash exploration in public, and turning it into a bit of a brand-style engagement play. What makes this a little on the weird side is that I don't work for a big company, which grants me a tremendous latitude. I have a whole lot of freedom that lets me be all kinds of different things, and I can't get fired, which is something I'm really good at.Inversely, my guest today is doing something remarkably similar, except she does work for a big company and could theoretically be fired if they were foolish enough to do so. But I don't believe that they are. Stephanie Wong is the head of developer engagement at Google. Stephanie, thank you for volunteering to suffer my slings and arrows about all of this.Stephanie: [laugh]. Thanks so much for having me today, Corey.Corey: So, at a very high level, you're the head of developer engagement, which is a term that I haven't seen a whole lot of. Where does that start and where does that stop?Stephanie: Yeah, so I will say that it's a self-proclaimed title a bit because of the nuance of what I do. I would say at its heart, I am still a part of developer relations. If you've heard of developer advocacy or developer evangelist, I would say this slight difference in shade of what I do is that I focus on scalable content creation and becoming a central figure for our developer audiences to engage and enlighten them with content that, frankly, is remarkable, and that they'd want to share and learn about our technology.Corey: Your bio is fascinating in that it doesn't start with the professional things that most people do with, “This is my title and this is my company,” is usually the first sentence people put in. Yours is, “Stephanie Wong is an award-winning speaker, engineer, pageant queen, and hip hop medalist.” Which is both surprising and more than a little bit refreshing because when I read a bio like that my immediate instinctive reaction is, “Oh, thank God. It's a real person for a change.” I like the idea of bringing the other aspects of what you are other than, “This is what goes on in an IDE, the end,” to your audience.Stephanie: That is exactly the goal that I had when creating that bio because I truly believe in bringing more interdisciplinary and varied backgrounds to technology. I, myself have gone through a very unconventional path to get to where I am today and I think in large part, my background has had a lot to do with my successes, my failures, and really just who I am in tech as an uninhibited and honest, credible person today.Corey: I think that there's a lack of understanding, broadly, in our industry about just how important credibility and authenticity are and even the source of where they come from. There are a lot of folks who are in the DevRel space—devrelopers, as I insist upon calling them, over their protests—where, on some level, the argument is, what is developer relations? “Oh, you work in marketing, but they're scared to tell you,” has been my gag on that one for a while. But they speak from a position of, “I know what's what because I have been in the trenches, working on these large-scale environments as an engineer for the last”—fill in the blank, however long it may have been—“And therefore because I have done things, I am going to tell you how it is.” You explicitly call out that you don't come from the traditional, purely technical background. Where did you come from? It's unlikely that you've sprung fully-formed from the forehead of some god, but again, I'm not entirely sure how Google finds and creates the folks that it winds up advancing, so maybe you did.Stephanie: Well, to tell you the truth. We've all come from divine creatures. And that's where Google sources all employees. So. You know. But—[laugh].Corey: Oh, absolutely. “We climbed to the top of Olympus and then steal fire from the gods.” “It's like, isn't that the origin story of Prometheus?” “Yeah, possibly.” But what is your background? Where did you come from?Stephanie: So, I have grown up, actually, in Silicon Valley, which is a little bit ironic because I didn't go to school for computer science or really had the interest in becoming an engineer in school. I really had no idea.Corey: Even been more ironic than that because most of Silicon Valley appears to never have grown up at all.Stephanie: [laugh]. So, true. Maybe there's a little bit of that with me, too. Everybody has a bit of Peter Pan syndrome here, right? Yeah, I had no idea what I wanted to do in school and I just knew that I had an interest in communicating with one another, and I ended up majoring in communication studies.I thought I wanted to go into the entertainment industry and go into production, which is very different and ended up doing internships at Warner Brothers Records, a YouTube channel for dance—I'm a dancer—and I ended up finding a minor in digital humanities, which is sort of this interdisciplinary minor that combines technology and the humanities space, including literature, history, et cetera. So, that's where I got my start in technology, getting an introduction to information systems and doing analytics, studying social media for certain events around the world. And it wasn't until after school that I realized that I could work in enterprise technology when I got an offer to be a sales engineer. Now, that being said, I had no idea what sales engineering was. I just knew it had something to do with enterprise technology and communications, and I thought it was a good fit for my background.Corey: The thing that I find so interesting about that is that it breaks the mold of what people expect, when, “If someone's going to talk to me about technology—especially coming from a”—it's weird; it's one of the biggest companies on the planet, and people still on some level equate Google with the startup-y mentality of being built in someone's garage. That's an awfully big garage these days, if that's even slightly close to true, which it isn't. But there's this idea of, “Oh, you have to go to Stanford. You have to get a degree in computer science. And then you have to go and do this, this, this, this, and this.”And it's easy to look dismissively at what you're doing. “Communications? Well, all that would teach you to do is communicate to people clearly and effectively. What possible good is that in tech?” As we look around the landscape and figure out exactly why that is so necessary in tech, and also so lacking?Stephanie: Exactly. I do think it's an underrated skill in tech. Maybe it's not so much anymore, but I definitely think that it has been in the past. And even for developers, engineers, data scientists, other technical practitioner, especially as a person in DevRel, I think it's such a valuable skill to be able to communicate complex topics simply and understandably to a wide variety of audiences.Corey: The big question that I have for you because I've talked to an awful lot of folks who are very concerned about the way that they approach developer relations, where—they'll have ratios, for example—where I know someone and he insists that he give one deeply technical talk for every four talks that are not deeply technical, just because he feels the need to re-establish and shore up his technical bona fides. Now, if there's one thing that people on the internet love, it is correcting people on things that are small trivia aspect, or trying to pull out the card that, “Oh, I've worked on this system for longer than you've worked on this system, therefore, you should defer to me.” Do you find that you face headwinds for not having the quote-unquote, “Traditional” engineering technical background?Stephanie: I will say that I do a bit. And I did, I would say when I first joined DevRel, and I don't know if it was much more so that it was being imposed on me or if it was being self-imposed, something that I felt like I needed to prove to gain credibility, not just in my organization, but in the industry at large. And it wasn't until two or three years into it, that I realized that I had a niche myself. It was to create stories with my content that could communicate these concepts to developers just as effectively. And yes, I can still prove that I can go into an hour-long or a 45-minute-long tech talk or a webinar about a topic, but I can also easily create a five to ten-minute video that communicates concepts and inspires audiences just the same, and more importantly, be able to point to resources, code labs, tutorials, GitHub repos, that can allow the audience to be hands-on themselves, too. So really, I think that it was over time that I gained more experience and realized that my skill sets are valuable in a different way, and it's okay to have a different background as long as you bring something to the table.Corey: And I think that it's indisputable that you do. The concept of yours that I've encountered from time to time has always been insightful, it is always been extremely illuminating, and—you wouldn't think of this as worthy of occasion and comment, but I feel it needs to be said anyway—at no point in any of your content did I feel like I was being approached in a condescending way, where at every point it was always about uplifting people to a level of understanding, rather than doing the, “Well, I'm smarter than you and you couldn't possibly understand the things that I've been to.” It is relatable, it is engaging, and you add a very human face to what is admittedly an area of industry that is lacking in a fair bit of human element.Stephanie: Yeah, and I think that's the thing that many folks DevRel continue to underline is the idea of empathy, empathizing with your audiences, empathizing with the developers, the engineers, the data engineers, whoever it is that you're creating content for, it's being in their shoes. But for me, I may not have been in those shoes for years, like many other folks historically have been in for DevRel, but I want to at least go through the journey of learning a new piece of technology. For example, if I'm learning a new platform on Google Cloud, going through the steps of creating a demo, or walking through a tutorial, and then candidly explaining that experience to my audience, or creating a video about it. I really just reject the idea of having ego in tech and I would love to broaden the opportunity for folks who came from a different background like myself. I really want to just represent the new world of technology where it wasn't full of people who may have had the privilege to start coding at a very early age, in their garages.Corey: Yeah, privilege of, in many respects, also that privilege means, “Yes, I had the privilege of not having to have friends and deal with learning to interact with other human beings, which is what empowered me to build this company and have no social skills whatsoever.” It's not the aspirational narrative that we sometimes are asked to believe. You are similar in some respects to a number of things that I do—by which I mean, you do it professionally and well and I do it as basically performance shitpost art—but you're on Twitter, you make videos, you do podcasts, you write long-form and short-form as well. You are sort of all across the content creation spectrum. Which of those things do you prefer to do? Which ones of those are things you find a little bit more… “Well, I have to do it, but it's not my favorite?” Or do you just tend to view it as content is content; you just look at different media to tell your story?Stephanie: Well, I will say any form of content is queen—I'm not going to say king, but—[laugh] content is king, content is queen, it doesn't matter.Corey: Content is a baroness as it turns out.Stephanie: [laugh]. There we go. I have to say, so given my background, I mentioned I was into production and entertainment before, so I've always had a gravitation towards video content. I love tinkering with cameras. Actually, as I got started out at Google Cloud, I was creating scrappy content using webcams and my own audio equipment, and doing my own research, and finding lounges and game rooms to do that, and we would just upload it to our own YouTube channel, which probably wasn't allowed at the time, but hey, we got by with it.And eventually, I got approached by DevRel to start doing it officially on the channel and I was given budget to do it in-studio. And so that was sort of my stepping stone to doing this full-time eventually, which I never foresaw for myself. And so yeah, I have this huge interest in—I'm really engaged with video content, but once I started expanding and realizing that I could repurpose that content for podcasting, I could repurpose it for blogs, then you start to realize that you can shard content and expand your reach exponentially with this. So, that's when I really started to become more active on social media and leverage it to build not just content for Google Cloud, but build my own brand in tech.Corey: That is the inescapable truth of DevRel done right is that as you continue doing it, in time, in your slice of the industry, it is extremely likely that your personal brand eclipses the brand of the company that you represent. And it's in many ways a test of corporate character—if it makes sense—as do how they react to that. I've worked in roles before I started this place where I was starting to dabble with speaking a lot, and there was always a lot of insecurity that I picked up of, “Well, it feels like you're building your personal brand, not advancing the company here, and we as a company do not see the value in you doing that.” Direct quote from the last boss I had. And, well, that partially explains why I'm here, I suppose.But there's insecurity there. I'd see the exact opposite coming out of Google, especially in recent times. There's something almost seems to be a renaissance in Google Cloud, and I'm not sure where it came from. But if I look at it across the board, and you had taken all the labels off of everything, and you had given me a bunch of characteristics about different companies, I would never have guessed that you were describing Google when you're talking about Google Cloud. And perhaps that's unfair, but perceptions shape reality.Stephanie: Yeah, I find that interesting because I think traditionally in DevRel, we've also hired folks for their domain expertise and their brand, depending on what you're representing, whether it's in the Kubernetes space or Python client library that you're supporting. But it seems like, yes, in my case, I've organically started to build my brand while at Google, and Google has been just so spectacular in supporting that for me. But yeah, it's a fine line that I think many people have to walk. It's like, do you want to continue to build your own brand and have that carry forth no matter what company you stay at, or if you decide to leave? Or can you do it hand-in-hand with the company that you're at? For me, I think I can do it hand-in-hand with Google Cloud.Corey: It's taken me a long time to wrap my head around what appears to be a contradiction when I look at Google Cloud, and I think I've mostly figured it out. In the industry, there is a perception that Google as an entity is condescending and sneering toward every other company out there because, “You're Google, you know how to do all these great, amazing things that are global-spanning, and over here at Twitter for Pets, we suck doing these things.” So, Google is always way smarter and way better at this than we could ever hope to be. But that is completely opposed to my personal experiences talking with Google employees. Across the board, I would say that you all are self-effacing to a fault.And I mean that in the sense of having such a limited ego, in some cases, that it's, “Well, I don't want to go out there and do a whole video on this. It's not about me, it's about the technology,” are things that I've had people who work at Google say to me. And I appreciate the sentiment; it's great, but that also feels like it's an aloofness. It also fails to humanize what it is that you're doing. And you are a, I've got to say, a breath of fresh air when it comes to a lot of that because your stories are not just, “Here's how you do a thing. It's awesome. And this is all the intricacies of the API.”And yeah, you get there, but you also contextualize that in a, “Here's why it matters. Here's the problem that solves. Here is the type of customer's problem that this is great for,” rather than starting with YAML and working your way up. It's going the other way, of, “We want to sell some underpants,” or whatever it is the customer is trying to do today. And that is the way that I think is one of the best ways to drive adoption of what's going on because if you get people interested and excited about something—at least in my experience—they're going to figure out how the API works. Badly in many cases, but works. But if you start on the API stuff, it becomes a solution looking for a problem. I like your approach to this.Stephanie: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think also something that I've continued to focus on is to tell stories across products, and it doesn't necessarily mean within just Google Cloud's ecosystem, but across the industry as well. I think we need to, even at Google, tell a better story across our product space and tie in what developers are currently using. And I think the other thing that I'm trying to work on, too, is contextualizing our products and our launches not just across the industry, but within our product strategy. Where does this tie in? Why does it matter? What is our forward-looking strategy from here? When we're talking about our new data cloud products or analytics, [unintelligible 00:17:21], how does this tie into our API strategy?Corey: And that's the biggest challenge, I think, in the AI space. My argument has been for a while—in fact, I wrote a blog post on it earlier this year—that AI and machine learning is a marvelously executed scam because it's being pushed by cloud providers and the things that you definitely need to do a machine learning experiment are a bunch of compute and a whole bunch of data that has to be stored on something, and wouldn't you know it, y'all sell that by the pound. So, it feels, from a cynical perspective, which I excel at espousing, that approach becomes one of you're effectively selling digital pickaxes into a gold rush. Because I see a lot of stories about machine learning how to do very interesting things that are either highly, highly use-case-specific, which great, that would work well, for me too, if I ever wind up with, you know, a petabyte of people's transaction logs from purchasing coffee at my national chain across the country. Okay, that works for one company, but how many companies look like that?And on the other side of it, “It's oh, here's how we can do a whole bunch of things,” and you peel back the covers a bit, and it looks like, “Oh, but you really taught me here is bias laundering?” And, okay. I think that there's a definite lack around AI and machine learning of telling stories about how this actually matters, what sorts of things people can do with it that aren't incredibly—how do I put this?—niche or a problem in search of a solution?Stephanie: Yeah, I find that there are a couple approaches to creating content around AI and other technologies, too, but one of them being inspirational content, right? Do you want to create something that tells the story of how I created a model that can predict what kind of bakery item this is? And we're going to do it by actually showcasing us creating the outcome. So, that's one that's more like, okay. I don't know how relatable or how appropriate it is for an enterprise use case, but it's inspirational for new developers or next gen developers in the AI space, and I think that can really help a company's brand, too.The other being highly niche for the financial services industry, detecting financial fraud, for example, and that's more industry-focused. I found that they both do well, in different contexts. It really depends on the channel that you're going to display it on. Do you want it to be viral? It really depends on what you're measuring your content for. I'm curious from you, Corey, what you've seen across, as a consumer of content?Corey: What's interesting, at least in my world, is that there seems to be, given that what I'm focusing on first and foremost is the AWS ecosystem, it's not that I know it the best—I do—but at this point, it's basically Stockholm Syndrome where it's… with any technology platform when you've worked with it long enough, you effectively have the most valuable of skill sets around it, which is not knowing how it works, but knowing how it doesn't, knowing what the failure mode is going to look like and how you can work around that and detect it is incredibly helpful. Whereas when you're trying something new, you have to wait until it breaks to find the sharp edges on it. So, there's almost a lock-in through, “We failed you enough times,” story past a certain point. But paying attention to that ecosystem, I find it very disjointed. I find that there are still events that happen and I only find out when the event is starting because someone tweets about it, and for someone who follows 40 different official AWS RSS feeds, to be surprised by something like that tells me, okay, there's not a whole lot of cohesive content strategy here, that is at least making it easy for folks to consume the things that they want, especially in my case where even the very niche nature of what I do, my interest is everything.I have a whole bunch of different filters that look for various keywords and the rest, and of course, I have helpful folks who email me things constantly—please keep it up; I'm a big fan—worst case, I'd rather read something twice than nothing. So, it's helpful to see all of that and understand the different marketing channels, different personas, and the way that content approaches, but I still find things that slip through the cracks every time. The thing that I've learned—and it felt really weird when I started doing it—was, I will tell the same stories repeatedly in different forums, or even the same forum. I could basically read you a Twitter thread from a year ago, word-for-word, and it would blow up bigger than it did the first time. Just because no one reads everything.Stephanie: Exactly.Corey: And I've already told my origin story. You're always new to someone. I've given talks internally at Amazon at various times, and I'm sort of loud and obnoxious, but the first question I love to ask is, “Raise your hand if you've never heard of me until today.” And invariably, over three-quarters of the room raises their hand every single time, which okay, great. I think that's awesome, but it teaches me that I cannot ever expect someone to have, quote-unquote, “Done the reading.”Stephanie: I think the same can be said about the content that I create for the company. You can't assume that people, A) have seen my tweets already or, B) understand this product, even if I've talked about it five times in the past. But yes, I agree. I think that you definitely need to have a content strategy and how you format your content to be more problem-solution-oriented.And so the way that I create content is that I let them fall into three general buckets. One being that it could be termed definition: talking about the basics, laying the foundation of a product, defining terms around a topic. Like, what is App Engine, or Kubeflow 101, or talking about Pub/Sub 101.The second being best practices. So, outlining and explaining the best practices around a topic, how do you design your infrastructure for scale and reliability.And the third being diagnosis: investigating; exploring potential issues, as you said; using scripts; Stackdriver logging, et cetera. And so I just kind of start from there as a starting point. And then I generally follow a very, very effective model. I'm sure you're aware of it, but it's called the five point argument model, where you are essentially telling a story to create a compelling narrative for your audience, regardless of the topic or what bucket that topic falls into.So, you're introducing the problem, you're sort of rising into a point where the climax is the solution. And that's all to build trust with your audience. And as it falls back down, you're giving the results in the conclusion, and that's to inspire action from your audience. So, regardless of what you end up talking about this problem-solution model—I've found at least—has been highly effective. And then in terms of sharing it out, over and over again, over the span of two months, that's how you get the views that you want.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by something new. Cloud Academy is a training platform built on two primary goals. Having the highest quality content in tech and cloud skills, and building a good community the is rich and full of IT and engineering professionals. You wouldn't think those things go together, but sometimes they do. Its both useful for individuals and large enterprises, but here's what makes it new. I don't use that term lightly. Cloud Academy invites you to showcase just how good your AWS skills are. For the next four weeks you'll have a chance to prove yourself. Compete in four unique lab challenges, where they'll be awarding more than $2000 in cash and prizes. I'm not kidding, first place is a thousand bucks. Pre-register for the first challenge now, one that I picked out myself on Amazon SNS image resizing, by visiting cloudacademy.com/corey. C-O-R-E-Y. That's cloudacademy.com/corey. We're gonna have some fun with this one!Corey: See, that's a key difference right there. I don't do anything regular in terms of video as part of my content. And I do it from time to time, but you know, getting gussied up and whatnot is easier than just talking into a microphone. As I record this, it's Friday, I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt, and I look exactly like the middle-aged dad that I am. And for me at least, a big breakthrough moment was realizing that my audience and I are not always the same.Weird confession for someone in my position: I don't generally listen to podcasts. And the reason behind that is I read very quickly, and even if I speed up a podcast, I'm not going to be able to consume the information nearly as quickly as I could by reading it. That, amongst other reasons, is one of the reasons that every episode of this show has a full transcript attached to it. But I'm not my audience. Other people prefer to learn by listening and there's certainly nothing wrong with that.My other podcast, the AWS Morning Brief, is the spoken word version of the stuff that I put out in my newsletter every week. And that is—it's just a different area for people to consume the content because that's what works for them. I'm not one to judge. The hard part for me was getting over that hump of assuming the audience was like me.Stephanie: Yeah. And I think the other key part of is just mainly consistency. It's putting out the content consistently in different formats because everybody—like you said—has a different learning style. I myself do. I enjoy visual styles.I also enjoy listening to podcasts at 2x speed. [laugh]. So, that's my style. But yeah, consistency is one of the key things in building content, and building an audience, and making sure that you are valuable to your audience. I mean, social media, at the end of the day is about the people that follow you.It's not about yourself. It should never be about yourself. It's about the value that you provide. Especially as somebody who's in DevRel in this position for a larger company, it's really about providing value.Corey: What are the breakthrough moments that I had relatively early in my speaking career—and I think it's clear just from what you've already said that you've had a similar revelation at times—I gave a talk, that was really one of my first talks that went semi-big called, “Terrible Ideas in Git.” It was basically, learn how to use Git via anti-pattern. What it secretly was, was under the hood, I felt it was time I learned Git a bit better than I did, so I pitched it and I got a talk accepted. So well, that's what we call a forcing function. By the time I give that talk, I'd better be [laugh] able to have built a talk that do this intelligently, and we're going to hope for the best.It worked, but the first version of that talk I gave was super deep into the plumbing of Git. And I'm sure that if any of the Git maintainers were in the audience, they would have found it great, but there aren't that many folks out there. I redid the talk and instead approached it from a position of, “You have no idea what Git is. Maybe you've heard of it, but that's as far as it goes.” And then it gets a little deeper there.And I found that making the subject more accessible as opposed to deeper into the weeds of it is almost always the right decision from a content perspective. Because at some level, when you are deep enough into the weeds, the only way you're going to wind up fixing something or having a problem that you run into get resolved, isn't by listening to a podcast or a conference talk; it's by talking to the people who built the thing because at that level, those are the only people who can hang at that level of depth. That stops being fodder for conference talks unless you turn it into an after-action report of here's this really weird thing I learned.Stephanie: Yeah. And you know, to be honest, the one of the most successful pieces of content I've created was about data center security. I visited a data center and I essentially unveiled what our security protocols were. And that wasn't a deeply technical video, but it was fun and engaging and easily understood by the masses. And that's what actually ended up resulting in the highest number of views.On top of that, I'm now creating a video about our subsea fiber optic cables. Finding that having to interview experts from a number of different teams across engineering and our strategic negotiators, it was like a monolith of information that I had to take in. And trying to format that into a five-minute story, I realized that bringing it up a layer of abstraction to help folks understand this at a wider level was actually beneficial. And I think it'll turn into a great piece of content. I'm still working on it now. So, [laugh] we'll see how it turns out.Corey: I'm a big fan of watching people learn and helping them get started. The thing that I think gets lost a lot is it's easy to assume that if I look back in time at myself when I was first starting my professional career two decades ago, that I was exactly like I am now, only slightly more athletic and can walk up a staircase without getting winded. That's never true. It never has been true. I've learned a lot about not just technology but people as I go, and looking at folks are entering the workforce today through the same lens of, “Well, that's not how I would handle that situation.” Yeah, no kidding. I have two decades of battering my head against the sharp edges and leaving dents in things to inform that opinion.No, when I was that age, I would have handled it way worse than whatever it is I'm critiquing at the time. But it's important to me that we wind up building those pathways and building those bridges so that people coming into the space, first, have a clear path to get here, and secondly, have a better time than I ever did. Where does the next generation of talent come from has been a recurring question and a recurring theme on the show.Stephanie: Yeah. And that's exactly why I've been such a fierce supporter of women in tech, and also, again, encouraging a broader community to become a part of technology. Because, as I said, I think we're in the midst of a new era of technology, of people from all these different backgrounds in places that historically have had more remote access to technology, now having the ability to become developers at an early age. So, with my content, that's what I'm hoping to drive to make this information more easily accessible. Even if you don't want to become a Google Cloud engineer, that's totally fine, but if I can help you understand some of the foundational concepts of cloud, then I've done my job well.And then, even with women who are already trying to break into technology or wanting to become a part of it, then I want to be a mentor for them, with my experience not having a technical background and saying yes to opportunities that challenged me and continuing to build my own luck between hard work and new opportunities.Corey: I can't wait to see how this winds up manifesting as we see understandings of what we're offering to customers in different areas in different ways—both in terms of content and terms of technology—how that starts to evolve and shift. I feel like we're at a bit of an inflection point now, where today if I graduate from school and I want to start a business, I have to either find a technical co-founder or I have to go to a boot camp and learn how to code in order to build something. I think that if we can remove that from the equation and move up the stack, sure, you're not going to be able to build the next Google or Pinterest or whatnot from effectively Visual Basic for Interfaces, but you can build an MVP and you can then continue to iterate forward and turn it into something larger down the road. The other part of it, too, is that moving up the stack into more polished solutions rather than here's a bunch of building blocks for platforms, “So, if you want a service to tell you whether there's a picture of a hot dog or not, here's a service that does exactly that.” As opposed to, “Oh, here are the 15 different services, you can bolt together and pay for each one of them and tie it together to something that might possibly work, and if it breaks, you have no idea where to start looking, but here you go.” A packaged solution that solves business problems.Things move up the stack; they do constantly. The fact is that I started my career working in data centers and now I don't go to them at all because—spoiler—Google, and Amazon, and people who are not IBM Cloud can absolutely run those things better than I can. And there's no differentiated value for me in solving those global problems locally. I'd rather let the experts handle stuff like that while I focus on interesting problems that actually affect my business outcome. There's a reason that instead of running all the nonsense for lastweekinaws.com myself because I've worked in large-scale WordPress hosting companies, instead I pay WP Engine to handle it for me, and they, in turn, hosted on top of Google Cloud, but it doesn't matter to me because it's all just a managed service that I pay for. Because me running the website itself adds no value, compared to the shitpost I put on the website, which is where the value derives from. For certain odd values of value.Stephanie: [laugh]. Well, two things there is that I think we actually had a demo created on Google Cloud that did detect hot dogs or not hot dogs using our Vision API, years in the past. So, thanks for reminding me of that one.Corey: Of course.Stephanie: But yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that. I mean, this is constantly a topic in conversation with my team members, and with clients. It's about higher level of abstractions. I just did a video series with our fellow, Eric Brewer, who helped build cloud infrastructure here at Google over the past ten decades. And I asked him what he thought the future of cloud would be in the next ten years, and he mentioned, “It's going to be these higher levels of abstraction, building platforms on top of platforms like Kubernetes, and having more services like Cloud run serverless technologies, et cetera.”But at the same time, I think the value of cloud will continue to be providing optionality for developers to have more opinionated services, services like GKE Autopilot, et cetera, that essentially take away the management of infrastructure or nodes that people don't really want to deal with at the end of the day because it's not going to be a competitive differentiator for developers. They want to focus on building software and focusing on keeping their services up and running. And so yeah, I think the future is going to be that, giving developers flexibility and freedom, and still delivering the best-of-breed technology. If it's covering something like security, that's something that should be baked in as much as possible.Corey: You're absolutely right, first off. I'm also looking beyond it where I want to be able to build a website that is effectively Twitter, only for pets—because that is just a harebrained enough idea to probably raise a $20 million seed round these days—and I just want to be able to have the barks—those are like tweets, only surprisingly less offensive and racist—and have them just be stored somewhere, ideally presumably under the hood somewhere, it's going to be on computers, but whether it's in containers, or whether it's serverless, or however is working is the sort of thing that, “Wow, that seems like an awful lot of nonsense that is not central nor core to my business succeeding or failing.” I would say failing, obviously, except you can lose money at scale with the magic of things like SoftBank. Here we are.And as that continues to grow and scale, sure, at some point I'm going to have bespoke enough needs and a large enough scale where I do have to think about those things, but building the MVP just so I can swindle some VCs is not the sort of thing where I should have to go to that depth. There really should be a golden-path guardrail-style thing that I can effectively drag and drop my way into the next big scam. And that is, I think, the missing piece. And I think that we're not quite ready technologically to get there yet, but I can't shake the feeling and the hope that's where technology is going.Stephanie: Yeah. I think it's where technology is heading, but I think part of the equation is the adoption by our industry, right? Industry adoption of cloud services and whether they're ready to adopt services that are that drag-and-drop, as you say. One thing that I've also been talking a lot about is this idea of service-oriented networking where if you have a service or API-driven environment and you simply want to bring it to cloud—almost a plug-and-play there—you don't really want to deal with a lot of the networking infrastructure, and it'd be great to do something like PrivateLink on AWS, or Private Service Connect on Google Cloud.While those conversations are happening with customers, I'm finding that it's like trying to cross the Grand Canyon. Many enterprise customers are like, “That sounds great, but we have a really complex network topology that we've been sitting on for the past 25 years. Do you really expect that we're going to transition over to something like that?” So, I think it's about providing stepping stones for our customers until they can be ready to adopt a new model.Corey: Yeah. And of course, the part that never gets said out loud but is nonetheless true and at least as big of a deal, “And we have a whole team of people who've built their entire identity around that network because that is what they work on, and they have been ignoring cloud forever, and if we just uplift everything into a cloud where you folks handle that, sure, it's better for the business outcome, but where does that leave them?” So, they've been here for 25 years, and they will spend every scrap of political capital they've managed to accumulate to torpedo a cloud migration. So, any FUD they can find, any horse-trading they can do, anything they can do to obstruct the success of a cloud initiative, they're going to do because people are people, and there is no real plan to mitigate that. There's also the fact that unless there's a clear business value story about a feature velocity increase or opening up new markets, there's also not an incentive to do things to save money. That is never going to be the number one priority in almost any case short of financial disaster at a company because everything they're doing is building out increasing revenue, rather than optimizing what they're already doing.So, there's a whole bunch of political challenges. Honestly, moving the computer stuff from on-premises data centers into a cloud provider is the easiest part of a cloud migration compared to all of the people that are involved.Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, we talked about serverless and all the nice benefits of it, but unless you are more a digitally-born, next-gen developer, it may be a higher burden for you to undertake that migration. That's why we always [laugh] are talking about encouraging people to start with newer surfaces.Corey: Oh, yeah. And that's the trick, too, is if you're trying to learn a new cloud platform these days—first, if you're trying to pick one, I'd be hard-pressed to suggest anything other than Google Cloud, with the possible exception of DigitalOcean, just because the new user experience is so spectacularly good. That was my first real, I guess, part of paying attention to Google Cloud a few years ago, where I was, “All right, I'm going to kick the tires on this and see how terrible this interface is because it's a Google product.” And it was breathtakingly good, which I did not expect. And getting out of the way to empower someone who's new to the platform to do something relatively quickly and straightforwardly is huge. And sure, there's always room to prove, but that is the right area to focus on. It's clear that the right energy was spent in the right places.Stephanie: Yeah. I will say a story that we don't tell quite as well as we should is the One Google story. And I'm not talking about just between Workspace and Google Cloud, but our identity access management and knowing your Google account, which everybody knows. It's not like Microsoft, where you're forced to make an account, or it's not like AWS where you had a billion accounts and you hate them all.Corey: Oh, my God, I dread logging into the AWS console every time because it is such a pain in the ass. I go to cloud.google.com sometimes to check something, it's like, “Oh, right. I have to dig out my credentials.” And, “Where's my YubiKey?” And get it. Like, “Oh. I'm already log—oh. Oh, right. That's right. Google knows how identity works, and they don't actively hate their customers. Okay.” And it's always a breath of fresh air. Though I will say that by far and away, the worst login experience I've seen yet is, of course, Azure.Stephanie: [laugh]. That's exactly right. It's Google account. It's yours. It's personal. It's like an Apple iCloud account. It's one click, you're in, and you have access to all the applications. You know, so it's the same underlying identity structure with Workspace and Gmail, and it's the same org structure, too, across Workspace and Google Cloud. So, it's not just this disingenuous financial bundle between GCP and Workspace; it's really strategic. And it's kind of like the idea of low code or no code. And it looks like that's what the future of cloud will be. It's not just by VMs from us.Corey: Yeah. And there are customers who want to buy VMs and that's great. Speed up what they're doing; don't get in the way of people giving you their money, but if you're starting something net-new, there's probably better ways to do it. So, I want to thank you for taking as much time as you have to wind up going through how you think about, well, the art of storytelling in the world of engineering. If people want to learn more about who you are, what you're up to, and how you approach things, where can they find you?Stephanie: Yeah, so you can head to stephrwong.com where you can see my work and also get in touch with me if you want to collaborate on any content. I'm always, always, always open to that. And my Twitter is @stephr_wong.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:40:03]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.Stephanie: Thanks so much.Corey: Stephanie Wong, head of developer engagement at Google Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me that the only way to get into tech these days is, in fact, to graduate with a degree from Stanford, and I can take it from you because you work in their admissions office.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Community Pulse
DevRel Resources (Ep 63)

Community Pulse

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 19, 2021 37:30


If there's one thing that's true across developer relations professionals, it's that we live to educate and support. That extends to our fellow devrels - and in recent years, a flurry of developer relations related supporting materials have surfaced; from blogs to books, tweets to (ahem) podcasts, and more. What's the best way to dig through them all to get the support and guidance you need? Today's guests will cover that from several angles - from someone new to the devrel world, to someone looking to get more folks connected to devrel, and us hosts that are somewhere in between. Checkouts Wesley Faulkner * Polywork (https://www.polywork.com/) SJ Morris * Noodle the Pug (https://www.tiktok.com/@jongraz?lang=en) - Bones/No Bones PJ Hagerty * Sapiens: A brief history of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ICN066A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) Albrey Brown * DevRel Collective Slack * DevRel Salary Report (https://dev.to/bffjossy/2021-devrel-salary-survey-results-table-of-contents-43fe) Jessica Rose * I've gotten really into the idea of doing less; there are a ton of disparate resources so I'm not quite sure where to point folks, but it feels like right now there are a lot of people around the world wanting to work less, buy less, and chill more which I find so reassuring. Photo by Austin Distel (https://unsplash.com/@austindistel?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) on Unsplash (https://unsplash.com/@austindistel?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) Links/Resources The Business Value of Developer Relations (https://smile.amazon.com/Business-Value-Developer-Relations-Communities/dp/1484237471/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) Developer Relations: How to Build and Grow a Successful Developer Program (https://smile.amazon.com/Developer-Relations-Build-Successful-Program/dp/1484271637/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=developer+relations&qid=1634321009&sr=8-3) Docs for Developers: An Engineer's Field Guide to Technical Writing (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1484272161/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) devrelresourc.es (https://devrelresourc.es/) Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/community-pulse/id1218368182?mt=2) and follow us on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3I7g5WfMSgpWu38zZMjet?si=565TMb81SaWwrJYbAIeOxQ), or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we're on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village. Special Guests: Albrey Brown and Jessica Rose.

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition
Modernize or Die® - CFML News for November 16th, 2021 - Episode 126

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 16, 2021 25:26


2021-11-16 Weekly News - Episode 126Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/83taKaR58xs Hosts: Eric Peterson - Senior Developer for Ortus SolutionsThanks to our Sponsor - Ortus SolutionsThe makers of ColdBox, CommandBox, ForgeBox, TestBox and almost every other Box out there. A few ways  to say thanks back to Ortus Solutions: Like and subscribe to our videos on YouTube.  Subscribe to our Podcast on your Podcast Apps and leave us a review Sign up for a free or paid account on CFCasts, which is releasing new content every week Buy Ortus's new Book - 102 ColdBox HMVC Quick Tips and Tricks on GumRoad (http://gum.co/coldbox-tips) Patreon SupportWe have 38 patreons providing 98% of the funding for our Modernize or Die Podcasts via our Patreon site: https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutions. News and EventsOrtus Webinar for November - Javier Quintero - FORGEBOX Business Plan: Introducing Organizations and TeamsNovember 19th at 11:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)In this webinar, Javier Quintero, lead developer of FORGEBOX, will present the new features and the improved UI that is now available on FORGEBOX 6. Moreover, he'll explore in depth the Business Plan that is directed towards organizations and teams so they can collaborate and support their software building needs. He will show us how to create a new organization, how you can add members to it with specific roles, and how you can control teams, members, packages and publish access.with Javier Quinterohttps://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZclfuGopjkiG9TIMoC93YbKIcLM1ok_KKlw ICYMI - Mid Michigan CFUG Meeting - Using AI and machine learning along with ColdFusion to build a smarter call center with Nick KwiatkowskiTuesday 11/9/21 at 7 pm easternUsing AI and machine learning along with ColdFusion to build a smarter call center at the next Mid-Michigan CFUG meeting Tuesday 11/9/21 at 7 pm eastern.  Michigan State University's, Nick Kwiatkowski, will be showing how to create voice and text-based chat bots that you can deploy to your contact centers (and help desks!) to help automate frequently asked questions.Recording - check Facebook groupICYMI - Online CF Meetup - "Avoiding Server-Side Request Forgery (SSRF) Vulns in CFML", with Brian ReillyThursday, November 11, 2021 - 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM PSTServer-Side Request Forgery (SSRF) vulnerabilities allow an attacker to make arbitrary web requests (and in some cases, other protocols too) from the application environment. Exploiting these flaws can lead to leaking sensitive data, accessing internal resources, and under certain circumstances, remote command execution.Several ColdFusion/CFML tags and functions can process URLs as file path arguments -- including some tags and and functions that you might not expect. If these tags and functions process unvalidated user-controlled input, this can lead to SSRF vulnerabilities in your applications. In addition to providing a list of affected tags and functions, I'll cover some approaches for identifying and remediating vulnerable code. My goal for this talk is to raise awareness about what may be a security blindspot for some ColdFusion/CFML developers.https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281850930/ Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wu6cRZcRx0 CFCasts Content Updateshttps://www.cfcasts.com Just ReleasedSoapBox - ColdBox Anniversary Edition with Brad WoodComing this weekYouth Trainings - Universidad Don BoscoA new series of ForgeBox coming very soonSend your suggestions at https://cfcasts.com/supportConferences and TrainingDeploy by Digital Ocean - THIS WEEKTHE VIRTUAL CONFERENCE FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TEAMSNovember 16-17, 2021 https://deploy.digitalocean.com/homeAWS re:InventNOV. 29 – DEC. 3, 2021 | LAS VEGAS, NVCELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF RE:INVENTVirtual: FreeIn Person: $1799https://reinvent.awsevents.com/ Postgres BuildOnline - FreeNov 30-Dec 1 2021https://www.postgresbuild.com/ ITB Latam 2021December 2-3, 2021Into the Box LATAM is back and better than ever! Our virtual conference will include speakers from El Salvador and all over the world, who'll present on the latest web and mobile technologies in Latin America.Registration is completely free so don't miss out!ITB Latam Schedule Postedhttps://latam.intothebox.org/ Adobe ColdFusion Summit 2021December 7th and 8th - VirtualAgenda is out!!!@Adobe @coldfusion #CFSummit2021 keynote we will be featuring @ashleymcnamara! Her talk will focus on the history & future of DevRel how we got here & where we're going.2 tracks - 1 all CFML - the other a mix of CFML and semi-related topicsRegister for Free - https://cfsummit.vconfex.com/site/adobe-cold-fusion-summit-2021/1290Blog - https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2021/09/adobe-coldfusion-summit-2021-registrations-open/ jConf.devNow a free virtual eventDecember 9th starting at 8:30 am CDT/2:30 pm UTC.https://2021.jconf.dev/?mc_cid=b62adc151d&mc_eid=8293d6fdb0 VueJS Nation ConferenceOnline Live EventJanuary 26th & 27th 2022Register for FreeCall for Speakers is open until Dec 31 2021https://vuejsnation.com/ More conferencesNeed more conferences, this site has a huge list of conferences for almost any language/community.https://confs.tech/Blogs, Tweets and Videos of the WeekBlog - Charlie Arehart - Should you “bother” to file bug reports at tracker.adobe.com? Yes you shouldI just wanted to offer a quick plug to get folks to please consider filing bugs (and feature requests) at the Adobe site for tracking them, https://tracker.adobe.com. I've blogged before about how it can be used for more than most may realize. What I want to share here is that it's not a “waste of time to bother”.Some may wonder first, “why is is worth pointing out Tracker? Doesn't everyone know about it?” The answer to the second question is “no”: many do NOT know about it. But the more important question may be the first, and it's the real reason I'm writing this post.https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2021/11/should-you-bother-to-file-bug-reports/ Blog - Ben Nadel - Phill Nacelli's SQL Tip Is Making My CFQuery Upgrades In Adobe ColdFusion 2021 EasyAs I've started to modernize my blogging platform for Adobe ColdFusion 2021, one of the things that I was dreading was the lack of Lucee CFML's Tag Islands. Tag Islands have really been a game changer for me, allowing me to seamlessly execute the CFQuery tag inside CFScript. I was afraid that I was going to have to keep using Tag-based syntax for my Gateway / Data Access components. But then, I remembered a hot tip from Phill Nacelli on giving dynamic SQL statements a consistent structure. It turns out, Phill's technique is making it bearable for me to use the queryExecute() Function in lieu of the CFQuery inside a Tag Island.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4153-phill-nacellis-sql-tip-is-making-my-cfquery-upgrades-in-adobe-coldfusion-2021-easy.htmBlog - Ben Nadel - A Query Object Maintains Its CurrentRow When Passed Out-Of-Context In Adobe ColdFusion 2021As I'm attempting to modernize my blogging platform for Adobe ColdFusion 2021, I'm moving a lot of my old-school, inline CFQuery tags into various "Service" and "Data Access" ColdFusion components where they can be reused across multiple templates. And, as much as I love the ColdFusion Query object, my "service boundaries" deals with Arrays and Structs, not queries. As such, I have code that deals with mapping queries onto other normalized data structures. While writing this code, I was tickled by the fact that the Query object maintains its .currentRow property even when passed out-of-context. This .currentRow can then be used a default argument value in Function signatures. This is a really old behavior of ColdFusion; but, I thought it would be fun to demonstrate since it may not be a feature people consider very often.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4152-a-query-object-maintains-its-currentrow-when-passed-out-of-context-in-adobe-coldfusion-2021.htm CFML JobsSeveral positions available on https://www.getcfmljobs.com/Listing over 233 ColdFusion positions from 103 companies across 123 locations in 5 Countries.6 new jobs listedFull-Time - Senior Coldfusion Developer |LATAM| at Colon, PA - United States Posted Nov 15https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-states/Senior-Coldfusion-Developer-LATAM-at-Colon-PA/11381Full-Time - ColdFusion Developer | 4 to 6 years | Pune at Pune, Maharash.. - India Posted Nov 12https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/india/ColdFusion-Developer-4-to-6-years-Pune-at-Pune-Maharashtra/11380Full-Time - Senior Coldfusion Developer (RQ02208) at Toronto, ON - Canada Posted Nov 11https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/canada/Senior-Coldfusion-Developer-RQ02208-at-Toronto-ON/11379Full-Time - Programmer (Coldfusion Java - Remote) at United States - United States Posted Nov 11https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-states/Programmer-Coldfusion-Java-Remote-at-United-States/11378Full-Time - Front End / Coldfusion Developer - Salford Quays + WFH at Sa.. - United Kingdom Posted Nov 10https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-kingdom/Front-End-Coldfusion-Developer-Salford-Quays-WFH-at-Salford/11377Full-Time - ColdFusion Jr. Web Developer at Pune, Maharashtra - India Posted Nov 09https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/india/ColdFusion-Jr-Web-Developer-at-Pune-Maharashtra/11376ForgeBox Module of the WeekGlobberBy Brad Wood and Ortus SolutionsA utility module to match file system path patterns (globbing) in a similar manner as Unix file systems or .gitignore syntax.box install globberLast Update: August 10, 2021 - 3.0.7https://forgebox.io/view/globberVS Code Hint Tips and Tricks of the WeekEncode DecodeThe Encode/Decode (ecdc) extension allows you to quickly convert one or more selections of text to and from various formatsThe extension provides a single command to the command palette. To active the command simply launch the command palette (Shift-CMD-P on OSX or Shift-Ctrl-P on Windows and Linux), then just type Encode/Decode: Convert Selection, then a menu of possible conversions will be displayed. Alternatively you can use the keyboard bindings CMD-ALT-C and CTRL-ALT-C for Mac & PC respectively.https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=mitchdenny.ecdc Thank you to all of our Patreon SupportersThese individuals are personally supporting our open source initiatives to ensure the great toolings like CommandBox, ForgeBox, ColdBox,  ContentBox, TestBox and all the other boxes keep getting the continuous development they need, and funds the cloud infrastructure at our community relies on like ForgeBox for our Package Management with CommandBox. You can support us on Patreon here https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutionsNow offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses. Bronze Packages and up, now get a ForgeBox Pro and CFCasts subscriptions as a perk for their Patreon Subscription. All Patreon supporters have a Profile badge on the Community Website All Patreon supporters have their own Private Forum access on the Community Website Patreons John Wilson - Synaptrix  Eric Hoffman Gary Knight Mario Rodrigues Giancarlo Gomez David Belanger Jonathan Perret Jeffry McGee - Sunstar Media Dean Maunder Joseph Lamoree Don Bellamy Jan Jannek Laksma Tirtohadi Carl Von Stetten Dan Card Jeremy Adams Jordan Clark Matthew Clemente Daniel Garcia Scott Steinbeck - Agri Tracking Systems Ben Nadel Mingo Hagen Brett DeLine Kai Koenig Charlie Arehart Jonas Eriksson Jason Daiger Jeff McClain Shawn Oden Matthew Darby Ross Phillips Edgardo Cabezas Patrick Flynn Stephany Monge Kevin Wright Steven Klotz You can see an up to date list of all sponsors on Ortus Solutions' Websitehttps://ortussolutions.com/about-us/sponsors ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
HTML All The Things with Mike Karan

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 16, 2021 33:55


We talk to Mike Karan, frontend engineer and host of HTML All The Things podcast, about podcasting, freelancing, and his Svelte course. Links https://twitter.com/htmleverything https://www.htmlallthethings.com/podcast https://www.htmlallthethings.com https://twitter.com/JacobMGEvans https://www.udemy.com/course/svelte-for-beginners/?couponCode=HATTSALE Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Mike Karan.

Cloud Champions
12. Alex Casalboni (Principal Developer Advocate di Amazon Web Services)

Cloud Champions

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 9, 2021 53:18


Una grande passione per il serverless e spiegare il cloud come lavoro: facciamo due chiacchiere con Alex Casalboni, Principal Developer Advocate di Amazon Web Services

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition
Modernize or Die® - CFML News for November 9th, 2021 - Episode 125

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 9, 2021 53:14


2021-11-09 Weekly News - Episode 125Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/XkpNcuDzhhw Hosts: Gavin Pickin - Senior Developer for Ortus Solutions Eric Peterson - Senior Developer for Ortus Solutions Thanks to our Sponsor - Ortus SolutionsThe makers of ColdBox, CommandBox, ForgeBox, TestBox and almost every other Box out there. A few ways  to say thanks back to Ortus Solutions: Like and subscribe to our videos on YouTube.  Subscribe to our Podcast on your Podcast Apps and leave us a review Sign up for a free or paid account on CFCasts, which is releasing new content every week Buy Ortus's new Book - 102 ColdBox HMVC Quick Tips and Tricks on GumRoad (http://gum.co/coldbox-tips) Patreon SupportWe have 37 patreons providing 93% of the funding for our Modernize or Die Podcasts via our Patreon site: https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutions. Now offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses.News and EventsColdBox Mail Services 2.0 Released - Fluent Mail For AllWe are so excited to bring you a major release of our cbmailservices module. This module has been around since our initial versions of ColdBox and it has now matured into a modern and fluent library for sending mail.https://www.ortussolutions.com/blog/coldbox-mail-services-20-fluent-mail-for-all https://www.forgebox.io/view/cbmailservices FORGEBOX 6 has landed!After several months of work, we are proud to announce the release of FORGEBOX 6. This has been a major undertaking spawning several months worth of work, a complete UI revamp for registered users, many bug fixes, multi-key API, and much more. We have also introduced our new Business Accounts (https://forgebox.io/plans) with the ability for organizations to have a simple and human way of managing their final package releases and their teams.https://www.ortussolutions.com/blog/forgebox-6-has-landed Tonight!!! - Mid Michigan CFUG Meeting - Using AI and machine learning along with ColdFusion to build a smarter call center with Nick KwiatkowskiTuesday 11/9/21 at 7 pm easternUsing AI and machine learning along with ColdFusion to build a smarter call center at the next Mid-Michigan CFUG meeting Tuesday 11/9/21 at 7 pm eastern.  Michigan State University's, Nick Kwiatkowski, will be showing how to create voice and text-based chat bots that you can deploy to your contact centers (and help desks!) to help automate frequently asked questions.Meeting URL: https://bit.ly/3w9LZ7D Adobe 1 Day Workshop - Adobe ColdFusion Workshop with Damien BruyndonckxWed, November 10, 202109:00 - 17:00 CEST EUROPEANJoin the Adobe ColdFusion Workshop to learn how you and your agency can leverage ColdFusion to create amazing web content. This one-day training will cover all facets of Adobe ColdFusion that developers need to build applications that can run across multiple cloud providers or on-premise.https://coldfusion-workshop.meetus.adobeevents.com/ Ortus Webinar for November - Javier Quintero - FORGEBOX Business Plan: Introducing Organizations and TeamsNovember 19th at 11:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)In this webinar, Javier Quintero, lead developer of FORGEBOX, will present the new features and the improved UI that is now available on FORGEBOX 6. Moreover, he'll explore in depth the Business Plan that is directed towards organizations and teams so they can collaborate and support their software building needs. He will show us how to create a new organization, how you can add members to it with specific roles, and how you can control teams, members, packages and publish access.with Javier Quinterohttps://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZclfuGopjkiG9TIMoC93YbKIcLM1ok_KKlwOnline CF Meetup - "Avoiding Server-Side Request Forgery (SSRF) Vulns in CFML", with Brian ReillyThursday, November 11, 2021 - 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM PSTServer-Side Request Forgery (SSRF) vulnerabilities allow an attacker to make arbitrary web requests (and in some cases, other protocols too) from the application environment. Exploiting these flaws can lead to leaking sensitive data, accessing internal resources, and under certain circumstances, remote command execution.Several ColdFusion/CFML tags and functions can process URLs as file path arguments -- including some tags and and functions that you might not expect. If these tags and functions process unvalidated user-controlled input, this can lead to SSRF vulnerabilities in your applications. In addition to providing a list of affected tags and functions, I'll cover some approaches for identifying and remediating vulnerable code. My goal for this talk is to raise awareness about what may be a security blindspot for some ColdFusion/CFML developers.https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281850930/ ICYMI - Online CF Meetup - "Migrating apps to ColdFusion 2021 from earlier versions", with Charlie ArehartThursday, November 4, 20219:00 AM to 10:00 AM PDTWhile CF2021 has been out now for a year (released in Nov 2020), many orgs may only now be considering moving to it, whether from CF2018 or perhaps CF2016, CF11, CF10, or even earlier. How have the versions changed, in ways that some older code may not run on CF2021? And if you're skipping some CF version/s, what might have tripped you up in those, though not really "new" in CF2021 itself? And what can you do to mitigate such challenges?In this session, CF troubleshooter Charlie Arehart will share from his experience helping folks make such migrations the past year (and for years with previous CF versions), whether in his role as an independent consultant or providing assistance to the CF community. He'll cover things you can consider in advance of the migration as well as things that might help during or after the migration. Most importantly, this talk will focus on the differences between CF2021 and various earlier CF versions. (Note that he has previously given a talk on migrating CF admin settings, and he plans a future talk on some other aspects of migration.)https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281800384/ Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQBHnQExFqc CFCasts Content Updateshttps://www.cfcasts.com Just ReleasedYouth Trainings - Universidad Don BoscoControl de Versiones Coming this week Youth Trainings - Universidad Don Bosco SoapBox Video Podcast A new series of ForgeBox coming very soonSend your suggestions at https://cfcasts.com/supportConferences and TrainingDeploy by Digital OceanTHE VIRTUAL CONFERENCE FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TEAMSNovember 16-17, 2021 https://deploy.digitalocean.com/homeAWS re:InventNOV. 29 – DEC. 3, 2021 | LAS VEGAS, NVCELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF RE:INVENTVirtual: FreeIn Person: $1799https://reinvent.awsevents.com/ Postgres BuildOnline - FreeNov 30-Dec 1 2021https://www.postgresbuild.com/ ITB Latam 2021December 2-3, 2021Into the Box LATAM is back and better than ever! Our virtual conference will include speakers from El Salvador and all over the world, who'll present on the latest web and mobile technologies in Latin America.Registration is completely free so don't miss out!ITB Latam Schedule Postedhttps://latam.intothebox.org/ Adobe ColdFusion Summit 2021December 7th and 8th - VirtualAgenda is out!!!@Adobe @coldfusion #CFSummit2021 keynote we will be featuring @ashleymcnamara! Her talk will focus on the history & future of DevRel how we got here & where we're going.2 tracks - 1 all CFML - the other a mix of CFML and semi-related topicsRegister for Free - https://cfsummit.vconfex.com/site/adobe-cold-fusion-summit-2021/1290Blog - https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2021/09/adobe-coldfusion-summit-2021-registrations-open/ jConf.devNow a free virtual eventDecember 9th starting at 8:30 am CDT/2:30 pm UTC.https://2021.jconf.dev/?mc_cid=b62adc151d&mc_eid=8293d6fdb0 VueJS Nation ConferenceOnline Live EventJanuary 26th & 27th 2022Register for FreeCall for Speakers is openhttps://vuejsnation.com/ More conferencesNeed more conferences, this site has a huge list of conferences for almost any language/community.https://confs.tech/Blogs, Tweets and Videos of the WeekBlog - Ben Nadel - Writing To The Standard Out / Console Using WriteDump() In Adobe ColdFusion 2021As I'm starting to modernize my ColdFusion blogging platform, one thing that I am missing terribly from Lucee CFML is the ability to write to the standard out (stdout) and standard error (stderr) streams. In a Docker / containerized context, writing to the output streams is a powerful debugging tool (not to mention a log aggregation technique). A few months ago, I looked at porting the systemOutput() function from Lucee CFML to Adobe ColdFusion; but, I just recently discovered that the CFDump tag and the writeDump() function in Adobe ColdFusion can write directly to the "console" (Standard Out) instead of to the browser. This isn't as seamless as systemOutput(); but, it may just be good enough!https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4150-writing-to-the-standard-out-console-using-writedump-in-adobe-coldfusion-2021.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - ColdFusion Component Setters / Accessors Are Chainable For Easy Dependency-InjectionThis is primarily a note-to-self; but the other day, I stumbled upon / remembered that the auto-generated accessors in a ColdFusion component are chainable. At work, I never think about this because we use a dependency-injection framework which performs all the setter-injection for us. However, in my blogging platform, all the components are wired-up manually in my onApplicationStart() event-handler. As such, the fact that I can chain my setter accessors leads to a lovely, fluent API.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4149-coldfusion-component-setters-accessors-are-chainable-for-easy-dependency-injection.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Considering An isError() Decision Function In ColdFusionAs I mentioned earlier today, I'm looking to use Rollbar's Java SDK in my Adobe ColdFusion 2021 app (namely, this blog). The Rollbar SDK exposes a fairly simple API. However, that simple API uses a data-type that I almost never think about in my code: java.lang.Throwable. To be clear, I deal with error objects all the time in ColdFusion; but, I'm usually serializing them to the "Standard Error" stream (where they get slurped-up into our log aggregator) - I'm never worrying about the actual data-type and what impact it may have on Java method signatures. It got me thinking about decision functions; and, why there is no isError() built-in function (BIF).https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4148-considering-an-iserror-decision-function-in-coldfusion.htm Blog - Javier Quintero - Ortus Solutions - FORGEBOX 6 has landed!After several months of work, we are proud to announce the release of FORGEBOX 6. This has been a major undertaking spawning several months worth of work, a complete UI revamp for registered users, many bug fixes, multi-key API, and much more. We have also introduced our new Business Accounts (https://forgebox.io/plans) with the ability for organizations to have a simple and human way of managing their final package releases and their teams.https://www.ortussolutions.com/blog/forgebox-6-has-landed Blog - Adam Cameron - A question about the overhead of OOP in CFMLA question cropped up on the CFML Slack channel the other day. My answer was fairly long-winded so I decided to post it here as well. I asked the original questioner, and they are OK with me reproducing their question.Again, I have a question to experienced OOP cfml coders. From the clean code concept I know I should break code into smaller (er even its smallest ) pieces. Is there any possible reason to stop doing that at a certain level in CFML? Eg. for performance reasons? Eg. lets assume I have a component named Car.cfc. Should I always break a Car.cfc component into Wheel.cfc, Engine.cfc, CarBody.cfc accordingly? Does the createObject behave like include files that would come with a certain overhead because of physical file request? What is when I also break Engine.cfc into many little pieces (and Wheel.cfc also)?Andreas @ CFML Slack ChannelHere's my answer. I've tidied up the English in some places, but have not changed any detail of what I said.This is interesting as Eric is battling this in quick and has made some amazing strides latelyhttps://blog.adamcameron.me/2021/11/a-question-about-overhead-of-oop-in-cfml.html Blog - Ben Nadel - Getting Rollbar's Java SDK 1.7.10 Working In Adobe ColdFusion 2021As I mentioned the other day, I'm preparing to pour some love into my ColdFusion blogging platform. One area in much need of love is my error logging. If you can even imagine, this blog still uses email as the primary means to report errors! *Ring ring ring* - Hello. What's that? The 1990's called and they want their error handling back? As a step towards modernization, I thought I would try out Rollbar - they have both a client-side JavaScript SDK and a server-side Java SDK. And, I think they have a cool name. Getting Rollbar's Java SDK 1.7.10 working with Adobe ColdFusion 2021 turned out to be a bit of a battle.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4147-getting-rollbars-java-sdk-1-7-10-working-in-adobe-coldfusion-2021.htm CFML JobsSeveral positions available on https://www.getcfmljobs.com/Listing over 227 ColdFusion positions from 102 companies across 123 locations in 5 Countries.1 new jobs listedFull-Time - ColdFusion Developer at Gold Coast QLD - Australia Posted Nov 03https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/australia/ColdFusion-Developer-at-Gold-Coast-QLD/11375 ForgeBox Module of the WeekColdBox Mail Services 2.0 by Luis Majano and Ortus SolutionsWe are so excited to bring you a major release of our cbmailservices module. This module has been around since our initial versions of ColdBox and it has now matured into a modern and fluent library for sending mail.https://www.ortussolutions.com/blog/coldbox-mail-services-20-fluent-mail-for-all https://www.forgebox.io/view/cbmailservices VS Code Hint Tips and Tricks of the WeekNew Relic CodeStream: GitHub, GitLab, Bitbucket PRs and Code ReviewNew Relic CodeStream is a developer collaboration platform that integrates essential dev tools into VS Code. Eliminate context-switching and simplify code discussion and code review by putting collaboration tools in your IDE.Integrations Code Hosts: Bitbucket, Bitbucket Server, GitHub, GitHub Enterprise, GitLab, GitLab Self-Managed Issue Trackers: Asana, Azure DevOps, Bitbucket, Clubhouse, GitHub, GitHub Enterprise, GitLab, GitLab Self-Managed, Jira, Linear, Trello, YouTrack Observability: New Relic One, Pixie Messaging Services: Slack, Microsoft Teams CodeStream is now part of New Relic - This must be very recenthttps://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=CodeStream.codestream Thank you to all of our Patreon SupportersThese individuals are personally supporting our open source initiatives to ensure the great toolings like CommandBox, ForgeBox, ColdBox,  ContentBox, TestBox and all the other boxes keep getting the continuous development they need, and funds the cloud infrastructure at our community relies on like ForgeBox for our Package Management with CommandBox. You can support us on Patreon here https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutionsNow offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses. Bronze Packages and up, now get a ForgeBox Pro and CFCasts subscriptions as a perk for their Patreon Subscription. All Patreon supporters have a Profile badge on the Community Website All Patreon supporters have their own Private Forum access on the Community Website Patreons John Wilson - Synaptrix  Eric Hoffman Gary Knight Mario Rodrigues Giancarlo Gomez David Belanger Jonathan Perret Jeffry McGee - Sunstar Media Dean Maunder Joseph Lamoree Don Bellamy Jan Jannek Laksma Tirtohadi Carl Von Stetten Dan Card Jeremy Adams Jordan Clark Matthew Clemente Daniel Garcia Scott Steinbeck - Agri Tracking Systems Ben Nadel Mingo Hagen Brett DeLine Kai Koenig Charlie Arehart Jonas Eriksson Jason Daiger Jeff McClain Shawn Oden Matthew Darby Ross Phillips Edgardo Cabezas Patrick Flynn Stephany Monge Kevin Wright Steven Klotz You can see an up to date list of all sponsors on Ortus Solutions' Websitehttps://ortussolutions.com/about-us/sponsors ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

The Swyx Mixtape
[Weekend Drop] Lee Robinson: Next.js, Vercel, and the SDK for the Web

The Swyx Mixtape

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 6, 2021 65:16


Watch on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlsTlFW7BSoThe following is my conversation with Lee Robinson, Head of Developer Relations at Vercel which recently launched Next.js 12, the most popular framework in the most popular programming language in the world.The conversation can be broken into two parts. The first covering the new features in Next.js, primarily Next.js Middleware and Edge Handlers with zero Cold Starts thanks to Cloudflare Workers, the Next.js Live realtime collaboration feature, and how they are rewriting everything in Rust. The last third covers our respective views on Developer Relations, both doing the job and hiring for it.Along the way we touch on Cloudflare vs Vercel, Remix vs Next.js, Static export vs Dynamic rendering, Webpack vs SWC, OpenTelemetry and Observability, WASM and awesome people we know in the industry.Timestamps: [00:00:00] Cold Open [00:01:39] Next.js 12 [00:03:52] Next.js Middleware[00:06:08] Edge Functions[00:07:23] React Server Components[00:11:06] Netlify Edge Handlers[00:12:48] Cloudflare & Vercel[00:15:37] Self-hosting Next.js Middleware[00:17:36] Static vs Dynamic Tradeoffs[00:19:18] Remix vs Next.js[00:22:32] next export[00:25:13] Webpack 4 to 5[00:26:06] Next.js Live[00:30:50] Rust Rewrite[00:34:36] OpenTelemetry and Observability[00:37:14] Webpack vs swc and WASM[00:40:41] Vercel Conference Strategy[00:44:38] DevRel at Vercel[00:52:50] Vercel and Svelte[00:57:48] Dev Marketing and Content Mix

Moscow Python: подкаст о Python на русском
Moscow Python Podcast. Рынок найма разработчиков (level: all)

Moscow Python: подкаст о Python на русском

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 5, 2021 48:16


В гостях у  Moscow Python Podcast технический директор компании Geecko Никита Обухов. Поговорили с Никитой о рынке найма разработчиков и о DevRel.    Ведущие выпуска — сооснователь MoscowPython и компании DryLabs Валентин Домбровский, Team Lead NVIDIA Злата Обуховская и DevRel компании Evrone, руководитель программного комитета Moscow Python Conf++ Григорий Петров.   Конференция GeekRel: https://conf.geecko.com/   Все выпуски: https://rebrand.ly/pythonpodcasta6ffe   Митапы MoscowPython: https://rebrand.ly/pythonmeetupf6315   Курс Learn Python: https://rebrand.ly/learnpythondc288   Конференция Moscow Python Conf (Russian Python Week):  https://conf.python.ru

Percona's HOSS Talks FOSS:  The Open Source Database Podcast
Percona Podcast 45 - Building a strong open source community and cool things at Mattermost /w Corey Hulen, CTO of Mattermost

Percona's HOSS Talks FOSS: The Open Source Database Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 4, 2021 51:54


Engaging users and contributors is key to building a strong and vibrant open source community.  At Mattermost, the team spends a lot of time ensuring their community can be successful by making the contribution process as easy as possible and providing a welcoming environment.   Corey Hulen the CTO and Co-Founder of Mattermost joins the HOSS to talk about his journey to the open-source space and how he has been helping to build a culture internally that promotes and embraces the community as key members of the engineering team.  Listen in and get tips on how to grow your contributor communities as well as learn about the cool things happening at Mattermost.  Whether you are in your company's OSPO (Open source Program Office), DevRel team, or an open-source maintainer this is a great talk to learn about some cool ideas and best practices.

Screaming in the Cloud
Making Multi-Cloud Waves with Betty Junod

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2021 35:13


About Betty Betty Junod is the Senior Director of Multi-Cloud Solutions at VMware helping organizations along their journey to cloud. This is her second time at VMware, having previously led product marketing for end user computing products.  Prior to VMware she held marketing leadership roles at Docker and solo.io in following the evolution of technology abstractions from virtualization, containers, to service mesh. She likes to hang out at the intersection of open source, distributed systems, and enterprise infrastructure software. @bettyjunod  Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/BettyJunod Vmware.com/cloud: https://vmware.com/cloud TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You know how git works right?Announcer: Sorta, kinda, not really Please ask someone else!Corey: Thats all of us. Git is how we build things, and Netlify is one of the best way I've found to build those things quickly for the web. Netlify's git based workflows mean you don't have to play slap and tickle with integrating arcane non-sense and web hooks, which are themselves about as well understood as git. Give them a try and see what folks ranging from my fake Twitter for pets startup, to global fortune 2000 companies are raving about. If you end up talking to them, because you don't have to, they get why self service is important—but if you do, be sure to tell them that I sent you and watch all of the blood drain from their faces instantly. You can find them in the AWS marketplace or at www.netlify.com. N-E-T-L-I-F-Y.comCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats v-u-l-t-r.com slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Periodically, I like to poke fun at a variety of different things, and that can range from technologies or approaches like multi-cloud, and that includes business functions like marketing, and sometimes it extends even to companies like VMware. My guest today is the Senior Director of Multi-Cloud Solutions at VMware, so I'm basically spoilt for choice. Betty Junod, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today and tolerate what is no doubt going to be an interesting episode, one way or the other.Betty: Hey, Corey, thanks for having me. I've been a longtime follower, and I'm so happy to be here. And good to know that I'm kind of like the ultimate cross-section of all the things [laugh] that you can get snarky about.Corey: The only thing that's going to make that even better is if you tell me, “Oh, yeah, and I moonlight on a contract gig by naming AWS services.” And then I just won't even know where to go. But I'll assume they have to generate those custom names in-house.Betty: Yes. Yes, I think they do those there. I may comment on it after the fact.Corey: So, periodically I am, let's call it miscategorized, in my position on multi-cloud, which is that it's a worst practice that when you're designing something from scratch, you should almost certainly not be embracing unless you're targeting a very specific corner case. And I stand by that, but what that has been interpreted as by the industry, in many cases because people lack nuance when you express your opinions in tweet-sized format—who knew—as me saying, “Multi-cloud bad.” Maybe, maybe not. I'm not interested in assigning value judgment to it, but the reality is that there are an awful lot of multi-cloud deployments out there. And yes, some of them started off as, “We're going to migrate from one to the other,” and then people gave up and called it multi-cloud, but it is nuanced. VMware is a company that's been around for a long time. It has reinvented itself in a few different ways at different periods of its evolution, and it's still highly relevant. What is the Multi-Cloud Solutions group over at VMware? What do you folks do exactly?Betty: Yeah. And so I will start by multi-cloud; we're really taking it from a position of meeting the customer where they are. So, we know that if anything, the only thing that's a given in our industry is that there will be something new in the next six months, next year, and the whole idea of multi-cloud, from our perspective, is giving customers the optionality, so don't make it so that it's a closed thing for them. But if they decide—it's not that they're going to start, “Hey, I'm going to go to cloud, so day one, I'm going to go all-in on every cloud out there.” That doesn't make sense, right, as—Corey: But they all gave me such generous free credit offers when I founded my startup; I feel obligated to at this point.Betty: I mean, you can definitely create your account, log in, play around, get familiar with the console, but going from zero to being fully operationalized team to run production workloads with the same kind of SLAs you had before, across all three clouds—what—within a week is not feasible for people getting trained up and actually doing that. Our position is that meeting customers where they are and knowing that they may change their mind, or something new will come up—a new service—and they really want to use a new service from let's say GCP or AWS, they want to bring that with an application they already have or build a new app somewhere, we want to help enable that choice. And whether that choice applies to taking an existing app that's been running in their data center—probably on vSphere—to a new place, or building new stuff with containers, Kubernetes, serverless, whatever. So, it's all just about helping them actually take advantage of those technologies.Corey: So, it's interesting to me about your multi-cloud group, for lack of a better term, is there a bunch of things fall under its umbrella? I believe Bitnami does—or as I insist on calling it, ‘bitten-A-M-I'—I believe that SaltStack—which I wrote a little bit of once upon a time, which tells me you folks did no due diligence whatsoever because everything I've ever written is molten garbage—Betty: Not [unintelligible 00:04:33].Corey: And—so to be clear, SaltStack is good; just the parts that I wrote are almost certainly terrible because have you met me?Betty: I'll make a note. [laugh].Corey: You have Wavefront, you have CloudHealth, you have a bunch of other things in the portfolio, and yeah, all those things do work across multiple clouds, but there's nothing that makes using any of those things a particularly bad idea even if you're all-in on one cloud provider, too. So, it's a portfolio that applies to a whole bunch have different places from your perspective, but it can be used regardless of where folks stand ideologically.Betty: Yes. So, this goes back to the whole idea that we meet the customers where they are and help them do what they want to do. So, with that, making sure these technologies that we have work on all the clouds, whether that be in the data center or the different vendors, so that if a customer wants to just use one, or two, or three, it's fine. That part's up to them.Corey: The challenge I've run into is that—and maybe this is a ‘Twitter Bubble' problem, but unfortunately, having talked to a whole bunch of folks in different contexts, I know it isn't—there's almost this idea that you have to be incredibly dogmatic about a particular technology that you're into. I joke periodically about the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce where their entire job is talking about using Rust; their primary IDE is PowerPoint because they're giving talks all the time about it rather than writing code. And great, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there are the idea of a technology purist who is taking, “Things must be this way,” well past a point of being reasonable, and disregarding the reality that, yeah, the world is messy in a way that architectural diagrams never are.Betty: Yeah. The architectural diagrams are always 2D, right? Back to that PowerPoint slide: how can I make pretty boxes? And then I just redraw a line because something new came out. But you and I have been in this industry for a long time, there's always something new.And I think that's where the dogmatism gets problematic because if you say we're only going to do containers this way—you know, I could see Swarm and Kubernetes, or all-in on AWS and we're going to use all the things from AWS and there's only this way. Things are generational and so the idea that you want to face the reality and say that there is a little bit of everything. And then it's kind of like, how do you help them with a part of that? As a vendor, it could be like, “I'm going to help us with a part of it, or I'm going to help address certain eras of it.” That's where I think it gets really bad to be super dogmatic because it closes you off to possibly something new and amazing, new thinking, different ways to solve the same problem.Corey: That's the problem is left to our own devices, most of us who are building things, especially for random ideas, yeah, there's a whole modern paradigm of how I can build these things, but I'm going to shortcut to the thing I know best, which may very well the architectures that I was using 15 years ago, maybe tools that I was using 15 years ago. There's a reason that Vim is still as popular as it is. Would I recommend it to someone who's a new user? Absolutely not; it's user-hostile, but back in my days of being a grumpy sysadmin, you learned vi because it was on everything you could get into, and you never knew in what environment you were going to be encountering stuff. These days, you aren't logging in to remote systems to manage them, in most cases, and when it happens, it's a rarity and a bug.The world changes; different approaches change, but you have to almost reinvent your entire philosophy on how things work and what your career trajectory looks like. And you have to give up aspects of what you've considered to be part of your identity and embrace something new. It was hard for me to accept that, for example, Docker and the wave of containerization that was rolling out was effectively displacing the world that I was deep in of configuration management with Puppet and with Salt. And the world changes; I said, “Okay, now I'll work on cloud.” And if something else happens, and mainframes are coming back again, instead, well, I'm probably not going to sit here railing against the tide. It would be ridiculous to do that from my perspective. But I definitely understand the temptation to fight against it.Betty: Mm-hm. You know, we spend so much time learning parts of our craft, so it's hard to say, “I'm now not going to be an expert in my thing,” and I have to admit that something else might be better and I have to be a newbie again. That can be scary for someone who's spent a lot of time to be really well-versed in a specific technology. It's funny that you bring up the whole Docker and Puppet config management; I just had a healthy discussion over Slack with some friends. Some people that we know and comment about some of the newer areas of config management, and the whole idea is like, is it a new category or an evolution of? And I went back to the point that I made earlier is like, it's generations. We continually find new ways to solve a problem, and one thing now is it [sigh] it just all goes so much faster, now. There's a new thing every week. [laugh] it seems sometimes.Corey: It is, and this is the joy of having been in this industry for a while—toxic and broken in many ways though it is—is that you go through enough cycles of seeing today's shiny, new, amazing thing become tomorrow's legacy garbage that we're stuck supporting, which means that—at least from my perspective—I tend to be fairly conservative with adopting new technologies with respect to things that matter. That means that I'm unlikely to wind up looking at the front page of Hacker News to pick a framework to build a banking system in, and I'm unlikely to be the first kid on my block to update to a new file system or database, just because, yeah, if I break a web server, we all laugh, we make fun of the fact that it throws an error for ten minutes, and then things are back up and running. If I break the database, there's a terrific chance that we don't have a company anymore. So, it's the ‘mistakes will show' area and understanding when to be aggressive and when to hold back as far as jumping into new technologies is always a nuanced decision. And let's be clear as well, an awful lot of VMware's customers are large companies that were founded, somehow—this is possible—before 2010. Imagine that. Did people—Betty: [laugh]. I know, right?Corey: —even have businesses or lives back then? I thought we all used horse-driven carriages and whatnot. And they did not build on cloud—not because of any perception of distrust; because it functionally did not exist at the time that they were building these things. And, “Oh, come out into the cloud. It's fine now.” It… yeah, that application is generating hundreds of millions in revenue every quarter. Maybe we treat that with a little bit of respect, rather than YOLO-ing it into some Lambda-driven monster that's constructed—Betty: One hundred—Corey: —out of popsicle sticks and glue.Betty: —percent. Yes. I think people forget that. And it's not that these companies don't want to go to cloud. It's like, “I can't break this thing. That could be, like, millions of dollars lost, a second.”Corey: I write my weekly newsletters in a custom monstrosity of a system that has something like 30-some-odd Lambda functions, a bunch of API gateways that are tied together with things, and periodically there are challenges with it that break as the system continues to evolve. And that's fine. And I'm okay with using something like that as a part of my workflow because absolute worst case, I can go back to the way that my newsletter was originally written: in Google Docs, and it doesn't look anywhere near the same way, and it goes back to just a text email that starts off with, “I have messed up.” And that would be a better story than most of the stuff I put out as a common basis. Similarly, yeah, durability is important.If this were a serious life-critical app, it would not just be hanging out in a single region of a single provider; it would probably be on one provider, as I've talked about, but going multi-region and having backups to a different cloud provider. But if AWS takes a significant enough outage to us-west-2 in Oregon, to the point where my ridiculous system cannot function to write the newsletter, that too, is a different handwritten email that goes out that week because there's no announcement they've made that anyone's going to give the slightest toss about, given the fact that it's basically Cloud Armageddon. So, we'll see. It's about understanding the blast radius and understanding your use case.Betty: Yep. A hundred percent.Corey: So, you've spent a fair bit of time doing interesting things in your career. This is your second outing at VMware, and in the interim, you were at solo.io for a bit, and before that you were in a marketing leadership role at Docker. Let's dive in, if you will. Given that you are no longer working at Docker, they recently made an announcement about a pricing model change, whereas it is free to use Docker Desktop for anyone's personal projects, and for small companies.But if you're a large company, which they define is ten million in revenue a year or 250 employees—those two things don't go alike, but okay—then you have to wind up having a paid plan. And I will say it's a novel approach, but I'm curious to hear what you have to say about it.Betty: Well, I'd say that I saw that there was a lot of flutter about that news, and it's kind of a, it doesn't matter where you draw the line in the sand for the tier, there's always going to be some pushback on it. So, you have to draw a line somewhere. I haven't kept up with the details around the pricing models that they've implemented since I left Docker a few years ago, but monetization is a really important part for a startup. You do have to make money because there are people that you have to pay, and eventually, you want to get off of raising money from VCs all the time. Docker Desktop has been something that has been a real gem from a local developer experience, right, giving the—so that has been well-received by the community.I think there was an enterprise application for it, but when I saw that, I was like, yeah, okay, cool. They need to do something with that. And then it's always hard to see the blowback. I think sometimes with the years that we've had with Docker, it's kind of like no matter what they do, the Twitterverse and Hacker News is going to just give them a hard time. I mean, that is my honest opinion on that. If they didn't do it, and then, say, they didn't make the kind of revenue they needed, people would—that would become another Twitter thread and Hacker News blow up, and if they do it, you'll still have that same reaction.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: It seems to be that Docker has been trying to figure out how to monetize for a very long time because let's be clear here; I think it is difficult to overstate just how impactful and transformative Docker was to the industry. I gave a talk “Heresy in the Church of Docker” that listed a bunch of things that didn't get solved with Docker, and I expected to be torn to pieces for it, and instead I was invited to give it at ContainerCon one year. And in time, a lot of those things stopped being issues because the industry found answers to it. Now, unfortunately, some of those answers look like Kubernetes, but that's neither here nor there. But now it's, okay, so giving everything that you do that is core and central away for free is absolutely part of what drove the adoption that it saw, but goodwill from developers is not the sort of thing that generally tends to lead to interesting revenue streams.So, they had to do something. And they've tried a few different things that haven't seemed to really pan out. Then they spun off that pesky part of their business that made money selling support contracts, over to Mirantis, which was apparently looking for something now that OpenStack was no longer going to be a thing, and Kubernetes is okay, “Well, we'll take Docker enterprise stuff.” Great. What do they do, as far as turning this into a revenue model?There's a lot of the, I guess, noise that I tend to ignore when it comes to things like this because angry people on Twitter, or on Hacker News, or other terrible cesspools on the internet, are not where this is going to be decided. What I'm interested in is what the actual large companies are going to say about it. My problem with looking at it from the outside is that it feels as if there's significant ambiguity across the board. And if there's one thing that I know about large company procurement departments, it's that they do not like ambiguity. This change takes effect in three or four months, which is underwear-outside-the-pants-superhero-style speed for a lot of those companies, and suddenly, for a lot of developers, they're so far removed from the procurement side of the house that they are never going to have a hope of getting that approved on a career-wide timespan.And suddenly, for a lot of those companies, installing and running Docker Desktop just became a fireable offense because from the company's perspective, the sheer liability side of it, if they were getting subject to audit, is going to be a problem. I don't believe that Docker is going to start pulling Oracle-like audit tactics, but no procurement or risk management group in the world is going to take that on faith. So, the problem is not that it's expensive because that can be worked around; it's not that there's anything inherently wrong with their costing model. The problem is the ambiguity of people who just don't know, “Does this apply to me or doesn't this apply to me?” And that is the thing that is the difficult, painful part.And now, as a result, the [unintelligible 00:17:28] groups and their champions of Docker Desktop are having to spend a lot more time, energy, and thought on this than it would simply be for cutting a check because now it's a risk org-wide, and how do we audit to figure out who's installed this previously free open-source thing? Now what?Betty: Yeah, I'll agree with you on that because once you start making it into corporate-issued software that you have to install on the desktop, that gets a lot harder. And how do you know who's downloaded it? Like my own experience, right? I have a locked-down laptop; I can't just install whatever I want. We have a software portal, which lets me download the approved things.So, it's that same kind of model. I'd be curious because once you start looking at from a large enterprise perspective, your developers are working on IP, so you don't want that on something that they've downloaded using their personal account because now it sits—that code is sitting with their personal account that's using this tool that's super productive for them, and that transition to then go to an enterprise, large enterprise and going through a procurement cycle, getting a master services agreement, that's no small feat. That's a whole motion that is different than someone swiping a credit card or just downloading something and logging in. It's similar to what you see sometimes with the—how many people have signed up for and paid 99 bucks for Dropbox, and then now all of a sudden, it's like, “Wow, we have all of megacorp [laugh] signed up, and then now someone has to sell them a plan to actually manage it and make sure it's not just sitting on all these personal drives.”Corey: Well, that's what AWS's original sales motion looked a lot like they would come in and talk to the CTO or whatnot at giant companies. And the CTO would say, “Great, why should we pick AWS for our cloud needs?” And the answer is, “Oh, I'm sorry. You have 87 distinct accounts within your organization that we've [unintelligible 00:19:12] up for you. We're just trying to offer you some management answers and unify the billing and this, and probably give you a discount as well because there is price breaks available at certain sizing.” It was a different conversation. It's like, “I'm not here to sell you anything. We're already there. We're just trying to formalize the relationship.” And that is a challenge.Again, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on procurement groups. I mean, I do sell enterprise consulting here at The Duckbill Group; we deal with an awful lot of procurement groups who have processes and procedures that don't often align to the way that we do things as a ten-person, fully remote company. We do not have commercial vehicle insurance, for example, because we do not have a commercial vehicle and that is a prerequisite to getting the insurance, for one. We're unlikely to buy one to wind up satisfying some contractual requirements, so we have to go back and forth and get things like that removed. And that is the nature of the beast.And we can say yes, we can say no on a lot of those questionnaires, but, “It depends,” or, “I don't know,” is the sort of thing that's going to cause giant red flags and derail everything. But that is exactly what Docker is doing. Now, it's the well, we have a sort of sloppy, weird set of habits with some of our engineers around the bring your own device to work thing. So, that's the enterprise thing. Let me be very clear, here at The Duckbill Group, we have a policy of issuing people company machines, we manage them very lightly just to make sure the drives are encrypted, so they—and that the screensaver comes out with a password, so if someone loses a laptop, it's just, “Replace the hardware,” not, “We have a data breach.”Let's be clear here; we are responsible about these things. But beyond that, it's oh, you want to have some personal thing installed on your machine or do some work on that stuff? Fine. By all means. It's a situation of we have no policy against it; we understand this is how work happens, and we trust people to effectively be grownups.There are some things I would strongly suggest that any employee—ours or anyone else—not cross the streams on for obvious IP ownership rights and the rest, we have those conversations with our team for a reason. It's, understand the nuances of what you're doing, and we're always willing to throw hardware at people to solve these problems. Not every company is like that. And ten million in revenue is not necessarily a very large company. I was doing the math out for ten million in revenue or 250 employees; assuming that there's no outside investment—which with VC is always a weird thing—it's possible—barely—to have a $10 million in revenue company that has 250 employees, but if they're full time they are damn close to a $15 an hour minimum wage. So, who does it apply to? More people than you might believe.Betty: Yeah, I'm really curious to how they're going to like—like you say, if it takes place in three or four months, roll that out, and how would you actually track it and true that up for people? So.Corey: Yeah. And there are tools and processes to do this, but it's also not in anyone's roadmap because people are not sitting here on their annual planning periods—which is always aspirational—but no one's planning for, “Oh, yeah, Q3, one of our software suppliers is going to throw a real procurement wrench at us that we have to devote time, energy, resources, and budget to figure out.” And then you have a problem. And by resources, I do mean resources of basically assigning work and tooling and whatnot and energy, not people. People are humans, they are not resources; I will die on that hill.Betty: Well, you know, actually resource-wise, the thing that's interesting is when you say supplier, if it's something that people have been able to download for free so far, it's not considered a supplier. So, it's—now they're going to go from just a thing I can use and maybe you've let your developers use to now it has to be something that goes through the official internal vetting as being a supplier. So, that's just—it's a whole different ball game entirely.Corey: My last job before I started this place, was a highly regulated financial institution, and even grabbing things were available for free, “Well, hang on a minute because what license is it using and how is it going to potentially be incorporated?” And this stuff makes sense, and it's important. Now, admittedly, I have the advantage of a number of my engineering peers in that I've been married to a corporate attorney for 11 years and have insight into that side of the world, which to be clear, is all about risk mitigation which is helpful. It is a nuanced and difficult field to—as are most things once you get into them—and it's just the uncertainty that befuddles me a bit. I wish them well with it, truly I do. I think the world is better with an independent Docker in it, but I question whether this is going to find success. That said, it doesn't matter what I think; what matters is what customers say and do, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it plays out.Betty: A hundred percent; same here. As someone who spent a good chunk of my life there, their mark on the industry is not to be ignored, like you said, with what happened with containers. But I do wish them well. There's lot of good people over there, it's some really cool tech, and I want to see a future for them.Corey: One last topic I want to get into before we wind up wrapping this episode is that you are someone who was nominated to come on the show by a couple of folks, which is always great. I'm always looking for recommendations on this. But what's odd is that you are—if we look at it and dig a little bit beneath the titles and whatnot, you even self-describe as your history is marketing leadership positions. It is uncommon for engineering-types to recommend that I talk to marketing folks.s personally I think that is a mistake; I consider myself more of a marketer than not in some respects, but it is uncommon, which means I have to ask you, what is your philosophy of marketing because it very clearly is differentiated in the public eye.Betty: I'm flattered. I will say that—and this goes to how I hire people and how I coach teams—it's you have to be super curious because there's a ton of bad marketing out there, where it's just kind of like, “Hey, we do these five things and we always do these five things: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But I think it's really being curious about what is the thing that you're marketing? There are people who are just focused on the function of marketing and not the thing. Because you're doing your marketing job in the service of a thing, this new widget, this new whatever, and you got to be super curious about it.And I'll tell you that, for me, it's really hard for me to market something if I'm not excited about it. I have to personally be super excited about the tech or something happening in the industry, and it's, kind of like, an all-in thing for me. And so in that sense, I do spend a ton of time with engineers and end-users, and I really try to understand what's going on. I want to understand how the thing works, and I always ask them, “Well”—so I'll ask the engineers, like, “So… okay, this sounds really cool. You just described this new feature and you're super excited about it because you wrote it, but how is your end-user, the person you're building this for, how did they do this before? Help me understand. How did they do this before and why is this better?”Just really dig into it because for me, I want to understand it deeply before I talk about it. I think the thing is, it shows a tremendous amount of respect for the builder, and then to try to really be empathetic, to understand what they're doing and then partner with them—I mean, this sounds so business-y the way I'm talking about this—but really be a partner with them and just help them make their thing really successful. I'm like the other end; you're going to build this great thing and now I'm going to make it sound like it's the best thing that's ever happened. But to do that, I really need to deeply understand what it is, and I have to care about it, too. I have to care about it in the way that you care about it.Corey: I cannot effectively market or sell something that I don't believe in, personally. I also, to be clear because you are a marketing professional—or at least far more of one than I ever was—I do not view what I do is marketing; I view it as spectacle. And it's about telling stories to people, it's about learning what the market thinks about it, and that informs product design in many respects. It's about understanding the product itself. It's about being able to use the product.And if people are listening to this and think, “Wait a minute, that sounds more like DevRel.” I have news for you. DevRel is marketing, they're just scared to tell you that. And I know people are going to disagree with me on that. You're wrong. But that's okay; reasonable people can disagree.And that's how I see it is that, okay, I'll talk to people building the service, I'll talk to people using the service, but then I'm going to build something with the service myself because until then, it's all a game of who sounds the most convincing in the stories that they tell. But okay, you can tell an amazing story about something, but if it falls over when I tried to use it, well, I'm sorry, you're not being accurate in your descriptions of it.Betty: A hundred percent. I hate to say, like, you're storytellers, but that's a big part of it, but it's kind of like you want to tell the story, so you do something to that people believe a certain thing. But that's part of a curated experience because you want them to try this thing in a certain way. Because you've designed it for something. “I built a spoon. I want you to use that to eat your soup because you can't eat soup with a fork.”So, then you'll have this amazing soup-eating experience, but if I build you a spoon and then not give you any directions and you start throwing it at cars, you're going to be like, “This thing sucks.” So, I kind of think of it in that way. To your point of it has to actually work, it's like, but they also need to know, “What am I supposed to use it for?”Corey: The problem I've always had on some visceral level with formal marketing departments for companies is that they can say that a product that they sell is good, they can say that the product is great, or they can choose to say nothing at all about that product, but when there's a product in the market that is clearly a turd, a marketing department is never going to be able to say that, which I think erodes its authenticity in many respects. I understand the constraints behind, that truly I do, but it's the one superpower I think that I bring to the table where even when I do sponsorship stuff it's, you can buy my attention but not my opinion. Because the authenticity of me being trusted to call them like I see them, for lack of a better term, to my mind at least outweighs any short-term benefit from saying good things about a product that doesn't deserve them. Now, I've been wrong about things, sure. I have also been misinformed in both directions, thinking something is great when it's not, or terrible when it isn't or not understanding the use case, and I am thrilled to engage in those debates. “But this is really expensive when you run for this use case,” and the answer can be, “Well, it's not designed for that use case.” But the answer should not be, “No it's not.” I promise you, expensive is in the eye of the customer not the person building the thing.Betty: Yes. This goes back to I have to believe in the thing. And I do agree it's, like not [sigh]—it's not a panacea. You're not going to make Product A and it's going to solve everything. But being super clear and focused on what it is good for, and then please just try it in this way because that's what we built it for.Corey: I want to thank you for taking the time to have a what for some people is no doubt going to be perceived as a surprisingly civil conversation about things that I have loud, heated opinions about. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Betty: Well, they can follow me on Twitter. But um, I'd say go to vmware.com/cloud for our work thing.Corey: Exactly. VM where? That's right. VM there. And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:30:07].Betty: [laugh].Corey: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Betty: Thanks, Corey.Corey: Betty Junod, Senior Director of Multi-Cloud Solutions at VMware. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a loud, ranting comment at the end. Then, if you work for a company that is larger than 250 people or $10 million in revenue, please also Venmo me $5.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Google Workspace Recap
E044: Google DevRel team members Charles Maxson and Steve Bazyl talk about the Workspace Developer Ecosystem, Delayed launch of Labels and Approvals and more

Google Workspace Recap

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 90:05


We welcome two amazing members from the DevRel (Developer Releations) team this episode. Charles Maxson is a Developer Advocate at Google where focuses on inspiring developers of all types to build solutions that leverage Google Workspace as a platform. Steve Bazyl is a Developer Relations Engineer and Advocate at Google and has worked with various Google Workspace APIs and partners for over a decade. Google Workspace Developer Links Everything can be found via https://developers.google.com/workspace How developers can utilize advances in Google Workspace Workspace Developer Preview Program Workspace Developer on Google Cloud Community Developer Newsletter Card Builder for Add-ons & Chatbots Deliver asynchronous notifications in Google Chat using webhooks (Charles Maxson, Justin Wexler) Silent Releases Drive Labels / Approvals GA Release Delayed > “We found some last minute issues that stopped us from making these two features generally available (GA). The teams are hard at work on solving these and they should become GA in the coming weeks.” Updating Gmail "Compose" button for Chat in Gmail users on the web New navigation menus in Google Sites Published Releases Enhanced menus in Google Sheets improves findability of key features Manage and share private iOS apps through Google Endpoint Management VirusTotal integration with the security investigation tool provides deeper insight into Gmail events Improved and updated security menu in the Admin Console

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition
Modernize or Die® - CFML News for November 2nd, 2021 - Episode 124

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 44:16


2021-11-02 Weekly News - Episode 124Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/ruRGbtZepqI Hosts: Gavin Pickin - Senior Developer for Ortus SolutionsThanks to our Sponsor - Ortus SolutionsThe makers of ColdBox, CommandBox, ForgeBox, TestBox and almost every other Box out there. A few ways  to say thanks back to Ortus Solutions: Like and subscribe to our videos on YouTube.  Subscribe to our Podcast Sign up for a free or paid account on CFCasts, which is releasing new content every week Buy Ortus's new Book - 102 ColdBox HMVC Quick Tips and Tricks on GumRoad (http://gum.co/coldbox-tips) Patreon SupportWe have 38 patreons providing 93% of the funding for our Modernize or Die Podcasts via our Patreon site: https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutionsNow offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses.News and EventsCFML Spreadsheet 3.1 releasedSpreadsheet CFML v3.1.0 just released. Supports the latest POI 5.1.0 out today, plus minor fixes/updates. https://github.com/cfsimplicity/spreadsheet-cfml/commit/f5698850f7691a0bf5578d77f4f3635a47b28b1c Adobe 1 Day Workshop - Adobe ColdFusion Workshop with Damien BruyndonckxWed, November 10, 202109:00 - 17:00 CEST EUROPEANJoin the Adobe ColdFusion Workshop to learn how you and your agency can leverage ColdFusion to create amazing web content. This one-day training will cover all facets of Adobe ColdFusion that developers need to build applications that can run across multiple cloud providers or on-premise.https://coldfusion-workshop.meetus.adobeevents.com/ Online CF Meetup - "Migrating apps to ColdFusion 2021 from earlier versions", with Charlie ArehartThursday, November 4, 20219:00 AM to 10:00 AM PDTWhile CF2021 has been out now for a year (released in Nov 2020), many orgs may only now be considering moving to it, whether from CF2018 or perhaps CF2016, CF11, CF10, or even earlier. How have the versions changed, in ways that some older code may not run on CF2021? And if you're skipping some CF version/s, what might have tripped you up in those, though not really "new" in CF2021 itself? And what can you do to mitigate such challenges?In this session, CF troubleshooter Charlie Arehart will share from his experience helping folks make such migrations the past year (and for years with previous CF versions), whether in his role as an independent consultant or providing assistance to the CF community. He'll cover things you can consider in advance of the migration as well as things that might help during or after the migration. Most importantly, this talk will focus on the differences between CF2021 and various earlier CF versions. (Note that he has previously given a talk on migrating CF admin settings, and he plans a future talk on some other aspects of migration.)https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281800384/ ICYMI - Online CF Meetup - Using LaunchDarkly for feature flag management in CF applications, w/ Brad WoodThursday, October 28, 2021 at 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM PDTFeature flags are a system of enabling certain functionality in your app based on test groups, cross-cutting segments of users, and your internal release processes. Feature flags can be updated on the fly at any time by any user and don't require deploying new code to your servers. LaunchDarkly is a system that helps you manage your feature flags and how they respond to the users of your site. It offers detailed tracking of each user, each flag, and a robust set of rules for determining which users see which features. In this session, we'll see an overview of how to use the new LaunchDarkly SDK which can be used in ColdFusion applications. Demos will include both ColdBox apps and non-ColdBox legacy apps.https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281577538/ Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjboLKvbGDc Ortus Webinar for November - Javier Quintero on ForgeBox BusinessDetails coming soonCBWire is ALIVE!!!Grant Copley is knocking out some great new features and documentation on CBWire, follow him or the #cbwire hashtag to keep up on everything. This session at ITB was great if you want to learn more about CBWire.A couple of links from his tweets.https://cbwire.ortusbooks.com/templates/loading-states#toggling-attributes https://cbwire.ortusbooks.com/component-features/logging CFCasts Content Updateshttps://www.cfcasts.com Just Released Up and Running with Quick Step 11 Exercise Step 12 Exercise Gavin Pickin on Building Quick APIs - Extended Version (FREE) Coming this weekRecordings in Spanish - University classes, Zero to Hero and moreSend your suggestions at https://cfcasts.com/supportConferences and TrainingMicrosoft Ignite - THIS WEEKNovember 2–4, 2021 Opportunity awaits, with dedicated content spotlighting Microsoft Business Applications and Microsoft Security.https://myignite.microsoft.com/homeDeploy by Digital OceanTHE VIRTUAL CONFERENCE FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TEAMSNovember 16-17, 2021 https://deploy.digitalocean.com/homeAWS re:InventNOV. 29 – DEC. 3, 2021 | LAS VEGAS, NVCELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF RE:INVENTVirtual: FreeIn Person: $1799https://reinvent.awsevents.com/ Postgres BuildOnline - FreeNov 30-Dev 1 2021https://www.postgresbuild.com/ ITB Latam 2021December 2-3, 2021Into the Box LATAM is back and better than ever! Our virtual conference will include speakers from El Salvador and all over the world, who'll present on the latest web and mobile technologies in Latin America.Registration is completely free so don't miss out!https://latam.intothebox.org/ Adobe ColdFusion Summit 2021December 7th and 8th - VirtualSpeakers are finalized and some Speakers and some session descriptions are now on the siteRegister for Free - https://cfsummit.vconfex.com/site/adobe-cold-fusion-summit-2021/1290Blog - https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2021/09/adobe-coldfusion-summit-2021-registrations-open/ Tweet from Mark Takata - OK! I can finally let you all know that for the @Adobe @coldfusion #CFSummit2021 keynote we will be featuring @ashleymcnamara! Her talk will focus on the history & future of DevRel how we got here & where we're going.cfsummit.vconfex.com to register!#CFML #DevRel #conferencehttps://twitter.com/MarkTakata/status/1449063259072438277 https://twitter.com/MarkTakata jConf.devNow a free virtual eventDecember 9th starting at 8:30 am CDT/2:30 pm UTC.https://2021.jconf.dev/?mc_cid=b62adc151d&mc_eid=8293d6fdb0 More conferencesNeed more conferences, this site has a huge list of conferences for almost any language/community.https://confs.tech/Blogs, Tweets and Videos of the WeekBlog - Charlie Arehart - FusionReactor 8.7.4 released, now tracks JDBC time and more on request list pagesFusionReactor version 8.7.4 was released recently (Oct 28. 2021), and while the release notes list several improvement (and a few bug fixes), I want to highlight in particular a couple of new features.TLDR; The first improvement is one I've been looking forward to for years: the display (on request list pages) of JDBC time spent and time spent calling out to remote services. This will really speed up assessment of the reason of slowness in listed requests. More on that feature (including a screenshot) and still another, below.https://www.carehart.org/blog/client/index.cfm/2021/11/1/fusionreactor_8_7_4_released Blog - Julian Halliwell - Lucee Spreadsheet is now Spreadsheet CFMLThe Lucee Spreadsheet library was born of my frustration 7 years ago at the difficulty of getting spreadsheet functionality to work in Railo and then Lucee.Not long after its release, I started getting requests to support Adobe ColdFusion (ACF). This seemed a bit odd at first. ACF already had built-in spreadsheet functionality so why would you need a third-party tool?The main reason is cross-platform compatibility: allowing for a code base (such as Preside CMS) to run on either CFML engine.https://blog.simplicityweb.co.uk/124/lucee-spreadsheet-is-now-spreadsheet-cfml Blog - Ben Nadel - The Value Class java.time.LocalDateTime Cannot Be Converted To A Date In ColdFusionYesterday, I went to debug an issue with the latest Adobe ColdFusion 2018 Updater. So, I first updated my CommandBox Docker Image (in an effort to reproduce the issue in my local development environment). This sent me down a 4-hour rabbit hole just trying to getting my ColdFusion site up-and-running before I could even debug the originally issue. One of the problems that I ran up against was an incompatibility with Adobe ColdFusion and the latest MySQL Connector/J, version 8.0.23+.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4144-the-value-class-java-time-localdatetime-cannot-be-converted-to-a-date-in-coldfusion.htmBlog - Ben Nadel - From ColdFusion 10 To ColdFusion 2018 - Preparing For Some Blog LoveThis blog is hella old. It started back in 2006 on Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7. At some point, it was updated to ColdFusion 10, where it remained for the better part of a decade. Recently, I updated it to Adobe ColdFusion 2018. But, the underlying code is still hella old and in much need of some love and tenderness. I'd like to put some time into modernizing the internals. But, before I do that, I need to get a sense of what "modernization" even means when moving from ColdFusion 10 to ColdFusion 2018. This post is really a note to self that refreshes my brain as to what functionality is now available to me in the current Adobe ColdFusion 2018 install.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4145-from-coldfusion-10-to-coldfusion-2018-preparing-for-some-blog-love.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Managing Shared Secret Token Rotation Across Systems In Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47When two systems interact, a shared secret is often included with inter-system communication in order to make sure that the given calls are both authorized and have not been tampered with. For various reasons, those shared secrets need to be rotated over time. And, since multiple systems - that need to agree on which secrets are valid - cannot be deployed at the exact same moment, we need to have a token rotation strategy that allows for different systems to rotate tokens at different times. Since I've recently had to deal with this type of token rotation in my ColdFusion applications, I thought it would be good to codify my thoughts in a small demo in Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4142-managing-shared-secret-token-rotation-across-systems-in-lucee-cfml-5-3-7-47.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Securing ColdFusion Scheduled Tasks In A Docker Container Using Lucee CFML 5.3.8.206As I mentioned in my previous post on managing shared secret token rotation across systems, I've been cleaning up some really old code, moving hard-coded passwords into environment variables. One place in which we had a hard-coded password was in our ColdFusion Scheduled Task ingress. As I was updating this code, it occurred to me that the Docker-based reality in which many of us now live has implications on the way in which we can secure our ColdFusion scheduled tasks. As such, I wanted to put together a small demo exploring the various ways in which we can secure a ColdFusion scheduled task running in a Dockerized container using Lucee CFML 5.3.8.206.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4143-securing-coldfusion-scheduled-tasks-in-a-docker-container-using-lucee-cfml-5-3-8-206.htmTweet - Steven Erat - Mind Blown this Week!Mind blown this week. Watching #AdobeMax highlight projects I work on at Adobe Stock while following commentary from (#ColdFusion's) @benforta, dovetailing into #CFML podcast by @gpickin & @bdw429s, finally realizing #Selenium4 has been released this week. https://twitter.com/stevenerat/status/1453424787150180353https://twitter.com/stevenerat CFML JobsSeveral positions available on https://www.getcfmljobs.com/Listing over 226 ColdFusion positions from 102 companies across 123 locations in 5 Countries.5 new jobs listedFull-Time - Quality Assurance Engineer w/ ColdFusion Knowledge - Remote .. - United States Posted Nov 02https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-states/Quality-Assurance-Engineer-w-ColdFusion-Knowledge-Remote-Position-at-Denver-CO/11374 Full-Time - Web Developer at Denver, CO - United States Posted Oct 29https://www.getcfmljobs.com/viewjob.cfm?jobid=11372Full-Time - HTML / Coldfusion Developer - Salford Quays + WFH at Salford.. - United Kingdom Posted Oct 29https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-kingdom/HTML-Coldfusion-Developer-Salford-Quays-WFH-at-Salford/11373Full-Time - Coldfusion Developer at California - United States Posted Oct 29https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-states/Coldfusion-Developer-at-California/11371 Full-Time -  Coldfusion Developer at Texas - United States Posted Oct 28https://www.getcfmljobs.com/jobs/index.cfm/united-states/Coldfusion-Developer-at-Texas/11370ForgeBox Module of the WeekColdBox ReCAPTCHA Google v3.0 Module By Javier Quintero for Ortus SolutionsThis module contains helpers for using Google's ReCAPTCHA API.reCAPTCHA is a free service that protects your site from spam and abuse. It uses advanced risk analysis techniques to tell humans and bots apart.reCAPTCHA v3 returns a score for each request without user friction. The score is based on interactions with your site and enables you to take an appropriate action for your site. Register reCAPTCHA v3 keys here: https://g.co/recaptcha/v3 https://www.forgebox.io/view/recaptcha3 VS Code Hint Tips and Tricks of the WeekSQLTools By Matheus Teixeira Database management done right. Connection explorer, query runner, intellisense, bookmarks, query history. Feel like a database hero!https://vscode-sqltools.mteixeira.dev/ https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=mtxr.sqltools Thank you to all of our Patreon SupportersThese individuals are personally supporting our open source initiatives to ensure the great toolings like CommandBox, ForgeBox, ColdBox,  ContentBox, TestBox and all the other boxes keep getting the continuous development they need, and funds the cloud infrastructure at our community relies on like ForgeBox for our Package Management with CommandBox. You can support us on Patreon here https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutionsNow offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses. Bronze Packages and up, now get a ForgeBox Pro and CFCasts subscriptions as a perk for their Patreon Subscription. All Patreon supporters have a Profile badge on the Community Website All Patreon supporters have their own Private Forum access on the Community Website Patreons John Wilson - Synaptrix  Eric Hoffman Gary Knight Mario Rodrigues Giancarlo Gomez David Belanger Jonathan Perret Jeffry McGee - Sunstar Media Dean Maunder Joseph Lamoree Don Bellamy Jan Jannek Laksma Tirtohadi Carl Von Stetten Dan Card Jeremy Adams Jordan Clark Matthew Clemente Daniel Garcia Scott Steinbeck - Agri Tracking Systems Ben Nadel Mingo Hagen Brett DeLine Kai Koenig Charlie Arehart Jonas Eriksson Jason Daiger Jeff McClain Shawn Oden Matthew Darby Ross Phillips Edgardo Cabezas Patrick Flynn Stephany Monge Kevin Wright Steven Klotz You can see an up to date list of all sponsors on Ortus Solutions' Websitehttps://ortussolutions.com/about-us/sponsors ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech
Tonya Sims: From WNBA to Python and DevRel

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 32:14


Tonya Sims is a self-taught developer and is the Python Developer Advocate at Vonage. She has an eclectic background ranging from roles in business, pharmaceutical sales, and even is a former professional women's basketball player! Tonya is humble and down to earth and has a ton of empathy. All of her life experiences allow her to see the world from many different perspectives. She started her career in tech working as an executive assistant for a leading financial investments company in their IT department. Shortly thereafter, she transitioned into a computer operator role and started learning how to code. Eventually, she worked her way up from an entry-level position to earn roles as a software engineer in test and software developer contracting with some of the top financial services companies in Chicago. Tonya is passionate about helping other budding engineers and loves to see people succeed. Resources:Tonya on Twitter: @TonyaSimsPython DiscordWomen in Tech Slack To Sell is Human by Daniel PinkWe Belong Here Podcast:Follow Lauren on Twitter @LoLoCodingwebelongpodcast.comSubscribe on AppleSubscribe on SpotifyWe Belong Here Discord CommunityJoin us on Discord Server today! bit.ly/webelongdiscord 

Screaming in the Cloud
The Mayor of Wholesome Twitter with Mark Thompson

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 28, 2021 41:18


About MarkMark loves to teach and code.He is an award winning university instructor and engineer. He comes with a passion for creating meaningful learning experiences. With over a decade of developing solutions across the tech stack, speaking at conferences and mentoring developers he is excited to continue to make an impact in tech. Lately, Mark has been spending time as a Developer Relations Engineer on the Angular Team.Links:Twitter: https://twitter.com/marktechson TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats v-u-l-t-r.com slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by something new. Cloud Academy is a training platform built on two primary goals. Having the highest quality content in tech and cloud skills, and building a good community the is rich and full of IT and engineering professionals. You wouldn't think those things go together, but sometimes they do. Its both useful for individuals and large enterprises, but here's what makes it new. I don't use that term lightly. Cloud Academy invites you to showcase just how good your AWS skills are. For the next four weeks you'll have a chance to prove yourself. Compete in four unique lab challenges, where they'll be awarding more than $2000 in cash and prizes. I'm not kidding, first place is a thousand bucks. Pre-register for the first challenge now, one that I picked out myself on Amazon SNS image resizing, by visiting cloudacademy.com/corey. C-O-R-E-Y. That's cloudacademy.com/corey. We're gonna have some fun with this one!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Anyone who has the misfortune to follow me on Twitter is fairly well aware that I am many things: I'm loud, obnoxious, but snarky is most commonly the term applied to me. I've often wondered, what does the exact opposite of someone who is unrelentingly negative about things in cloud look like? I'm here to answer that question is lightness and happiness and friendliness on Twitter, personified. His Twitter name is @marktechson. My guest today is Mark Thompson, developer relations engineer at Google. Mark, thank you for joining me.Mark: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me. Thanks.Corey: Oh, by all means. I'm glad we're doing these recordings remotely because I strongly suspect, just based upon the joy and the happiness and the uplifting aspects of what it is that you espouse online that if we ever shook hands, we'd explode as we mutually annihilate each other like matter and antimatter combining.Mark: Feels right. [laugh].Corey: So, let's start with the day job; seems like the easy direction to go in. You're a developer relations engineer. Now, I've heard of developer advocates, I've heard of the DevRel term, a lot of them get very upset when I refer to them as ‘devrelopers', but that's the game that we play with language. What is the developer relations engineer?Mark: So, I describe my job this way: I like to help external communities with our products. I work on the Angular team, so I like to help our external communities but then I also like to work with our internal team to help improve our product. So, I see it as helping as a platform, as a developer relations engineer. But the engineer part is, I think, is important here because, at Google, we still do coding and we still write things; I'm going to contribute to the Angular platform itself versus just only giving talks or only writing blog posts to creating content, they still want us to do things like solve problems with the platform as well.Corey: So, this is where my complete and abject lack of understanding of the JavaScript ecosystem enters the conversation. Let's be clear here, first let me check my assumptions. Angular is a JavaScript framework, correct?Mark: Technically a TypeScript framework, but you could say JavaScript.Corey: Cool. Okay, again, this is not me setting you up for a joke or anything like that. I try to keep my snark to Twitter, not podcast because that tends to turn an awful lot into me berating people, which I try to reserve for those who really have earned it; they generally have the word chief somewhere in their job title. So, I'm familiar with sort of an evolution of the startups that I worked at where Backbone was all the rage, followed by, “Oh, you should never use Backbone. You should be using Angular instead.”And then I sort of—like, that was the big argument the last time I worked in an environment like that. And then I see things like View and React and several other things. At some point, it seems like, pick a random name out of the air; if it's not going to be a framework, it's going to be a Pokemon. What is the distinguishing characteristic or characteristics of Angular?Mark: I like to describe Angular to people is that the value-add is going to be some really incredible developer ergonomics. And when I say that I'm thinking about the tooling. So, we put a lot of work into making sure that the tooling is really strong for developers, where you can jump in, you can get started and be productive. Then I think about scale, and how your application runs at scale, and how it works at scale for your teams. So, scale becomes a big part of the story that I tell, as well, for Angular.Corey: You spend an awful lot of time telling stories about Angular. I'm assuming most of them are true because people don't usually knowingly last very long in this industry when they just get up on stage and tell lies, other than, “This is how we do it in our company,” which is the aspirational conference-ware that we all wish we ran. You're also, according to your bio, which of course, is always in the [show notes 00:04:16], you're an award-winning university instructor. Now, award-winning—great. For someone who struggled mightily in academia, I don't know much about that world. What is it that you teach? How does being a university instructor work? I imagine it's not like most other jobs where you wind up showing up, solving algorithms on a whiteboard, and they say, “Great, can you start tomorrow?”Mark: Sure. So, when I was teaching at university, what I was teaching was mostly coding bootcamps. So, some universities have coding bootcamps that they run themselves. And so I was a part of some instructional teams that work in the university. And that's how I won the Teaching Excellence Award. So, the award that I won actually was the Distinguished Teaching Excellence Award, based on my performance at work when I was teaching at university.Corey: I want to be clear here, it's almost enough to make someone question whether you really were involved there because the first university, according to your background that you worked on was Northwestern, but then it was through the Harvard Extension School, and I was under the impression that doing anything involving Harvard was the exact opposite of an NDA, where you're contractually bound to mention that, “Oh, I was involved with Harvard in the following way,” at least three times at any given conversation. Can you tell I spent a lot of time dealing with Harvard grads?Mark: [laugh]. Yeah, Harvard is weird like that, where people who've worked there or gone there, it comes up as a first thing. But I'll tell the story about it if someone asks me, but I just like to talk about univer—that's why I say ‘university,' right? I don't say, “Oh, I won an award at Northwestern.” I just say, “University award-winning instructor.”The reason I say even the ‘award-winning', that part is important for credibility, specifically. It's like, hey, if I said I'm going to teach you something, I want you to know that you're in really good hands, and that I'm really going to do my best to help you. That's why I mention that a lot.Corey: I'll take that even one step further, and please don't take this as in any way me casting aspersions on some of your colleagues, but very often working at Google has felt an awful lot like that in some respects. I've never seen you do it. You've never had to establish your bona fides in a conversation that I've seen by saying, “Well, at Google this is how we do it.” Because that's a logical fallacy of appeal to authority in many respects. Yeah, I'm sure you do a lot of things at Google at a multinational trillion-dollar company that if I'm founding a four-person startup called Twitter for Pets might not necessarily be the same constraints that I'm faced with.I'm keenly appreciative folks who recognize that distinction and don't try and turn it into something else. We see it with founders, too, “Oh, we're a small scrappy startup and our founders used to work at Google.” And it's, “Hmm, I'm wondering if the corporate culture at a small startup might be slightly different these days.” I get it. It does resonate and it carries weight. I just wonder if that's one of those unexamined things that maybe it's time to dive into a bit more.Mark: Hmm. So, what's funny about that is—so people will ask me, what do I do? And it really depends on context. And I'll usually say, “Oh, I work for a company on the West Coast,” or, “For a tech company on the West Coast.” I'll just say that first.Because what I really want to do is turn the conversation back to the person I'm talking to, so here's where that unrelenting positivity kind of comes in because I'm looking at ways, how can I help boost you up? So first, I want to hear more about you. So, I'll kind of like—I won't shrink myself, but I'll just be kind of vague about things so I could hear more about you so we're not focused on me. In this case, I guess we are because I'm the guest, but in a normal conversation, that's what I would try to do.Corey: So, we've talked about JavaScript a little bit. We've talked about university a smidgen. Now, let me complete the trifecta of things that I know absolutely nothing about, specifically positivity on Twitter. You have been described to me as the mayor of wholesome Twitter. What is that about?Mark: All right, so let me be really upfront about this. This is not about toxic positivity. We got to get that out in the open first, before I say anything else because I think that people can hear that and start to immediately think, “Oh, this guy is just, you know, toxic positivity where no matter what's happening, he's going to be happy.” That is not the same thing. That is not the same thing at all.So, here's what I think is really interesting. Online, and as you know, as a person on Twitter, there's so many people out there doing damage and saying hurtful things. And I'm not talking about responding to someone who's being hurtful by being hurtful. I mean the people who are constantly harassing women online, or our non-binary friends, people who are constantly calling into question somebody's credibility because of, oh, they went to a coding bootcamp or they came from self-taught. All these types of ways to be really just harmful on Twitter.I wanted to start adding some other perspective of the positivity side of just being focused on value-add in our interactions. Can I craft this narrative, this world, where when we meet, we're both better off because of it, right? You feel good, I feel good, and we had a really good time. If we meet and you're having a bad time, at least you know that I care about you. I didn't fix you. I didn't, like, remove the issue, but you know that somebody cares about you. So, that's what I think wholesome positivity comes into play is because I want to be that force online. Because we already have plenty of the other side.Corey: It's easy for folks who are casual observers of my Twitter nonsense to figure, “Oh, he's snarky and he's being clever and witty and making fun of big companies”—which I do–And they tend to shorthand that sometimes to, “Oh, great. He's going to start dunking on people, too.” And I try mightily to avoid that it's punch up, never down.Mark: Mm-hm.Corey: I understand there's a school of thought that you should never be punching at all, which I get. I'm broken in many ways that apparently are entertaining, so we're going to roll with that. But the thing that incenses me the most—on Twitter in my case—is when I'll have something that I'll put out there that's ideally funny or engaging and people like it and it spreads beyond my circle, and then you just have the worst people on the internet see that and figure, “Oh, that's snarky and incisive. Ah, I'm like that too. This is my people.”I assure you, I am not your people when that is your approach to life. Get out of here. And curating the people who follow and engage with you on Twitter can be a full-time job. But oh man, if I wind up retweeting someone, and that act brings someone who's basically a jackwagon into the conversation, it's no. No-no-no.I'm not on Twitter to actively make things worse unless you're in charge of cloud pricing, in which case yes, I am very much there to make your day worse. But it's, “Be the change you want to see in the world,” and lifting people up is always more interesting to me than tearing people down.Mark: A thousand percent. So, here's what I want to say about that is, I think, punching up is fine. I don't like to moderate other people's behavior either, though. So, if you'd like punching up, I think it'd be funny. I laugh at jokes that people make.Now, is it what I'll do? Probably not because I haven't figured out a good way for me to do it that still goes along my core values. But I will call out stuff. Like if there's a big company that's doing something that's pretty messed up, I feel comfortable calling things out. Or when drama happens and people are attacking someone, I have no problem with just be like, “Listen, this person is a stand-up person.”Putting myself kind of like… just kind of on the front line with that other person. Hey, look, this person is being attacked right now. That person is stand-up, so if you got a problem them, you got a problem with me. That's not the same thing as being negative, though. That's not the same thing as punching down or harming people.And I think that's where—like I say, people kind of get that part confused when they think that being kind to people is a sign of weakness, which is—it takes more strength for me to be kind to people who may or may not deserve it, by societal standards. That I'll try to understand you, even though you've been a jerk right now.Corey: Twitter excels at fomenting outrage, and it does it by distancing us from being able to easily remember there's a person on the other side of these things. It is ways you're going to yell at someone, even my business partner in a text message. Whenever we start having conversations that get a little heated—which it happens; business partnership is like a marriage—it's oh, I should pick up the phone and call him rather than sending things that stick around forever, that don't reflect the context of the time, and five years later when I see it, I feel ashamed." I'm not here to advocate for other people doing things on Twitter the way that I do because what I do is clever, but the failure mode of clever in my case is being a complete jerk, and I've made that mistake a lot when I was learning to do it when my audience was much smaller, and I hurt people. And whenever I discovered that that is what happened, I went out of my way, and still do, to apologize profusely.I've gotten relatively good at having to do less of those apologies on an ongoing basis, but very often people see what I'm doing and try to imitate what they're seeing; it just comes off as mean. And that's not acceptable. That's not something that I want to see more of in the world. So, those are my failure modes. I have to imagine the only real failure mode that you would encounter with positivity is inadvertently lifting someone up who turns out to be a trash goblin.Mark: [laugh]. That and I think coming off as insincere. Because if someone is always positive or a majority of the time, positive, if I say something to you, and you don't know me that actually mean it, sincerity is incredibly hard to get over text. So, if I congratulate you on your job, you might be like, “Oh, he's just saying that for attention for himself because now he's being the nice guy again.” But sincerity is really, really hard to convey, so that's one of the failure modes is like I said, being sincere.And then lifting up people who don't deserve to be lifted up, yeah, that's happened before where I've engaged with people or shared some of their stuff in an effort to boost them, and find out, like you said, legit trash goblin, like, their home address is under a bridge because they're a troll. Like, real bad stuff. And then you have back off of that endorsement that you didn't know. And people will DM you, like, “Hey, I see that you follow this person. That person is a really bad person. Look at what they're saying right now.” I'm like, “Well, damn, I didn't know it was bad like that.”Corey: I've had that on the podcast, too, where I'll have a conversation with someone and then a year or so later, they'll wind up doing something horrifying, or something comes to light and the rest, and occasionally people will ask, “So, why did you have that person on this show?” It's yeah, it turns out that when we're having a conversation, that somehow didn't come up because as I'm getting background on people and understanding who they are and what they're about in the intake questionnaire, there is not a separate field for, “Are you terrible to women?” Maybe there should be, but that's something that it's—you don't see it. And that makes it easy to think that it's not there until you start listening more than you speak, and start hearing other people's stories about it. This is the challenge.As much as I aspire at times to be more positive and lift folks up, this is the challenge of social media as it stands now. I had a tweet the other day about a service that AWS had released with the comment that this is fantastic and the team that built it should be proud. And yeah, that got a bit of engagement. People liked it. I'm sure it was passed around internally, “Yay, the jerk liked something.” Fine.A month ago, they launched a different service, and my comment was just distilled down to, “This is molten garbage.” And that went around the tech internet three times. When you're positive, it's one of those, “Oh, great. Yeah, that's awesome.” Whereas when I savage things, it's, “Hey, he's doing it again. Come and look at the bodies.” Effectively the rubbernecking thing. “There's been a terrible accident, let's go gawk at it.”Mark: Right.Corey: And I don't quite know what to do with that because it leads to the mistaken and lopsided impression that I only ever hate things and I don't think that a lot of stuff is done well. And that's very much not the case. It doesn't restrict itself to AWS either. I'm increasingly impressed by a lot of what I'm seeing out of Google Cloud. You want to talk about objectivity, I feel the same way about Oracle Cloud.Dunking on Oracle was a sport for me for a long time, but a lot of what they're doing on a technical and on a customer-approach basis in the cloud group is notable. I like it. I've been saying that for a couple of years. And I'm gratified the response from the audience seems to at least be that no one's calling me a shill. They're saying, “Oh, if you say it, it's got to be true.” It's, “Yes. Finally, I have a reputation for authenticity.” Which is great, but that's the reason I do a lot of the stuff that I do.Mark: That is a tough place to be in. So, Twitter itself is an anomaly in terms of what's going to get engagement and what isn't. Sometimes I'll tweet something that at least I think is super clever, and I'm like, “Oh, yeah. This is meaningful, sincere, clever, positive. This is about to go bananas.” And then it'll go nowhere.And then I'll tweet that I was feeling a depression coming on and that'll get a lot of engagement. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's just, it's never what I think. I thought that the depression tweet was not going to go anywhere. I thought that one was going to be like, kind of fade into the ether, and then that is the one that gets all the engagement.And then the one about something great that I want to share, or lifting somebody else up, or celebrating somebody that doesn't go anywhere. So, it's just really hard to predict what people are going to really engage with and what's going to ring true for them.Corey: Oh, I never have any idea of how jokes are going to land on Twitter. And in the before times, I had the same type of challenge with jokes in conference talks, where there's a joke that I'll put in there that I think is going to go super well, and the audience just sits there and stares. That's okay. My jokes are for me, but after the third time trying it with different audiences and no one laughs, okay, I should keep it to myself, then. Other times just a random throwaway comment, and I find it quoted in the newspaper almost. And it's, “Oh, okay.”Mark: [laugh].Corey: You can never tell what's going to hit and what isn't.Mark: Can we talk about that though? Like—Corey: Oh, sure.Mark: Conference talking?Corey: Oh, my God, no.Mark: Conference speaking, and just how, like—I remember one time I was keynoting—well I was emceeing and I had the opening monologue. And so [crosstalk 00:17:45]—Corey: We call that a keynote. It's fine. It is—I absolutely upgrade it because people know what you're talking about when you say, “I keynoted the thing.” Do it. Own it.Mark: Yeah.Corey: It's yours.Corey: So, I was emcee and then I did the keynote. And so during the keynote rehearsals—and this is for all the academia, right, so all these different university deans, et cetera. So, in the practice, I'm telling this joke, and it is landing, everybody's laughing, blah, blah, blah. And then I get in there, and it was crickets. And in that moment, you want to panic because you're like, “Holy crap, what do I do because I was expecting to be able to ride the wave of the laughter into my next segment,” and now it's dead silent. And then just that ability to have to be quick on your feet and not let it slow you down is just really hard.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: It's a challenge. It turns out that there are a number of skills that are aligned but are not the same when it comes to conference talks, and I think that is something that is not super well understood. There's the idea of, “I can get on stage in front of a bunch of people with a few loose talking points, and just riff,” that sort of an improv approach. There's the idea of, “Oh, I can get on stage with prepared slides and have presenter notes and have a whole direction and theme of what I'm doing,” that's something else entirely. But now we're doing video and the energy is completely different.I've presented live on video, I've done pre-recorded video, but in either case, you're effectively talking to the camera and there is no crowd feedback. So, especially if you'd lean on jokes like I tend to, you can't do a cheesy laugh track as an insert, other than maybe once as its own joke. You have to make sure that you can resonate and engage with folks, but there are no subtle cues from the audience like half the front row getting up and walking out. You have to figure out what it is that resonates, what it is that doesn't, why people should care. And of course, distinguishing and differentiating between this video that you're watching now and the last five Zoom meetings that you've been on that look an awful lot the same; why should you care about this talk?Mark: The hardest thing to do. I think speaking remotely became such a big challenge. So, over time it became a little easier because I found some of the value in it, but it was still much harder because of all the things that you said. What became easier was that I didn't have to go to a place. That was easier.So, I could take three different conference talks in a day for three different organizations. So, that was easier. But what was harder, just like you said, not being able to have that energy of the crowd to know when you're on point because you look for that person in the audience who's nodding in agreement, or the person who's shaking their head furiously, like, “Oh, this is all wrong.” So, you might need to clarify or slow down or—you lose all your cues, and that's just really, really hard. And I really don't like doing video pre-recorded talks because those take more energy for me than they do the even live virtual because I have to edit it and I have to make sure that take was right because I can't say, “Oh, excuse me. Well, I meant to say this.”And I guess I could leave that in there, but I'm too much of a—I love public speaking, so I put so much pressure on myself to be the best version of myself at every opportunity when I'm doing public speaking. And I think that's what makes it hard.Corey: Oh, yeah. Then you add podcasts into the mix, like this one, and it changes the entire approach. If I stumble over my words in the middle of a sentence that I've done a couple of times already, on this very show, I will stop and repeat myself because it's easier to just cut that out in post, and it sounds much more natural. They'll take out ums, ahs, stutters, and the rest. Live, you have to respond to that very differently, but pre-recorded video has something of the same problem because, okay, the audio you can cut super easily.With video, you have to sort of a smear, and it's obvious when people know what they're looking at. And, “Wait, what was that? That was odd. They blew a take.” You can cheat, which is what I tend to do, and oh, I wind up doing a bunch of slides in some of my talks because every slide transition is an excuse to cut because suddenly for a split second I'm not on the camera and we can do all kinds of fun things.But it's all these little things, and part of the problem, too, with the pandemic was, we suddenly had to learn how to be A/V folks when previously we had the good fortune slash good sense to work with people who are specialist experts in this space. Now it's, “Well, I guess I am the best boy grip today,” whate—I'm learning what that means [laugh] as we—Mark: That's right.Corey: —continue onward. Ugh. I never signed up for this, but it's the thing that happens to you instead of what you plan on. I think that's called life.Mark: Feels right. Feels right, yeah. It's just one of those things. And I'm looking forward to the time after this, when we do get back to in-person talks, and we do get to do some things. So, I have a lot of hot takes around speaking. So, I came up in Toastmasters. Are you familiar with Toastmasters at all?Corey: I very much am.Mark: Oh, yeah. Okay, so I came up in Toastmasters, and for people at home who don't know, it's kind of like a meetup where you go and you actually practice public speaking, based on these props, et cetera. For me, I learned to do things like not say ‘um' and ‘ah' on stage because there's someone in the room counting every time you do it, and then when you get that review at the end when they give you your feedback, they'll call that out. Or when you say ‘like you know,' or too many ‘and so', all these little—I think the word is disfluencies that you use that people say make you sound more natural, those are things that were coached out with me for public speaking. I just don't do those things anymore, and I feel like there are ways for you not to do it.And I tweeted that before, that you shouldn't say ‘um' and ‘ah' and have someone tell me, “Oh, no, they're a natural part of language.” And then, “It's not natural and it could freak people out.” And I was like, “Okay. I mean, you have your opinion about that.” Like, that's fine, but it's just a hot take that I had about speaking.I think that you should do lots of things when you speak. The rate that you walk back and forth, or should you be static? How much should be on your slides? People put a lot of stuff on slides, I'm like, “I don't want to read your slides. I'd rather listen to you use your slides.” I mean, I can go on and on. We should have another podcast called, “Hey, Mark talks about public speaking,” because that is one of my jams. That and supporting people who come from different paths. Those two things, I can go on for hours about.Corey: And they're aligned in a lot of respects. I agree with you on the public speaking. Focusing on the things that make you a better speaker are not that hard in most cases, but it's being aware of what you're doing. I thought I was a pretty good speaker when I had a coach for a little while, and she would stand there, “Give just the first minute of your talk.” And she's there and writing down notes; I get a minute in and it's like, “Okay, I can't wait to see what she doesn't like once I get started.” She's like, “Nope. I have plenty. That will cover us for the next six weeks.” Like, “O…kay? I guess she doesn't know what she's doing.”Spoiler she did, in fact, know what she was doing and was very good at it and my talks are better for it as a result. But it comes down to practicing. I didn't have a thing like Toastmasters when I was learning to speak to other folks. I just did it by getting it wrong a lot of times. I would speak to small groups repeatedly, and I'd get better at it in time.And I would put time-bound on it because people would sit there and listen to me talk and then the elevator would arrive at our floor and they could escape and okay, they don't listen to me publicly speaking anymore, but you find time to practice in front of other folks. I am kidding, to be clear. Don't harass strangers with public speaking talks. That was in fact a joke. I know there's at least one person in the audience who's going to hear that and take notes and think, “Ah, I'm going to do that because he said it's a good idea.” This is the challenge with being a quote-unquote, “Role model” sometimes. My role model approach is to give people guidance by providing a horrible warning of what not to do.Mark: [laugh].Corey: You've gone the other direction and that's kind of awesome. So, one of the recurring themes of this show has been, where does the next generation come from? Where do we find the next generation of engineer, of person working in cloud in various ways? Because the paths that a lot of us walked who've been in this space for a decade or more have been closed. And standing here, it sounds an awful lot like, “Oh, go in and apply for jobs with a firm handshake and a printed copy of your resume and ask to see the manager and you'll have a job before dark.”Yeah, what worked for us doesn't work for people entering the workforce today, and there have to be different paths. Bootcamps are often the subject of, I think, a deserved level of scrutiny because quality differs wildly, and from the outside if you don't know the space, a well-respected bootcamp that knows exactly what it's doing and has established long-term relationships with a number of admirable hiring entities in the space and grifter who threw together a website look identical. It's a hard problem to solve. How do you view teaching the next generation and getting them into this space, assuming that that isn't something that is morally reprehensible? And some days, I wonder if exposing this industry to folks who are new to it isn't a problem.Mark: No, good question. So, I think in general—so I am pro bootcamp. I am pro self-taught. I was not always. And that's because of personal insecurity. Let's dive into that a little bit.So, I've been writing code since I was probably around 14 because I was lucky enough to go to a high school to had a computer science program on the south side of Chicago, one school. And then when I say I was lucky, I was really lucky because the school that I went to wasn't a high resource school; I didn't go to a private school. I went to a public school that just happened that one of the professors from IIT, also worked on staff a few days a week at my school, and we could take programming classes with this guy. Total luck. And so I get into computer science that way, take AP Computer Science in high school—which is, like, the pre-college level—then I go into undergrad, then I go into grad school for computer science.So, like, as traditional of a path that you can get. So, in my mind, it was all about my sweat equity that I had put in that disqualified everybody else. So, Corey, if you come from a bootcamp, you haven't spent the time that I spent learning to code; you haven't sweat, you haven't had to bleed, you haven't tried to write a two's complement algorithm on top of your other five classes for that semester. You haven't done it, definitely you don't deserve to be here. So, that was so much of my attitude, until—until—I got the opportunity to have my mind completely blown when I got asked to teach.Because when I got to asked to teach, I thought, “Yeah, I'm going to have my way of going in there and I'm going to show them how to do it right. This is my chance to correct these coding bootcampers and show them how it goes.” And then I find these people who were born for this life. So, some of us are natural talents, some of us are people who can just acquire the talent later. And both are totally valid.But I met this one student. She was a math teacher for years in Chicago Public Schools. She's like, “I want a career change.” Comes to the program that I taught at Northwestern, does so freaking well that she ends up getting a job at Airbnb. Now, if you have to make her go back four years at university, is that window still open for her? Maybe not.Then I meet this other woman, she was a paralegal for ten years. Ten years as a paralegal was the best engineer in the program when I taught, she was the best developer we had. Before the bootcamp was over, she had already gotten the job offer. She was meant for this. You see what I'm saying?So, that's why I'm so excited because it's like, I have all these stories of people who are meant for this. I taught, and I met people that changed the way I even saw the rest of the world. I had some non-binary trans students; I didn't even know what pronouns were. I had no idea that people didn't go by he/him, she/her. And then I had to learn about they and them and still teach you code without misgendering you at the same time, right because you're in a classroom and you're rapid-fire, all right, you—you know, how about this person? How about that person? And so you have to like, it's hard to take—Corey: Yeah, I can understand async, await, and JavaScript, but somehow understanding that not everyone has the pronouns that you are accustomed to using for people who look certain ways is a bridge too far for you to wrap your head around. Right. We can always improve, we can always change. It's just—at least when I screw up async, await, I don't make people feel less than. I just make—Mark: Totally.Corey: —users feel that, “Wow, this guy has no idea how to code.” You're right, I don't.Mark: Yeah, so as I'm on my soapbox, I'll just say this. I think coding bootcamps and self-taught programs where you can go online, I think this is where the door is the widest open for people to enter the industry because there is no requirement of a degree behind this. I just think that has just really opened the door for a lot of people to do things that is life-changing. So, when you meet somebody who's only making—because we're all engineers and we do all this stuff, we make a lot of money. And we're all comfortable. When you meet somebody where they go from 40,000 to 80,000, that is not the same story for—as it is for us.Corey: Exactly. And there's an entire school of thought out there that, “Oh, you should do this for the love because it is who you are, it is who you were meant to be.” And for some people, that's right, and I celebrate and cherish those folks. And there are other folks for whom, “I got into tech because of the money.” And you know what?I celebrate and cherish those folks because that is not inherently wrong. It says nothing negative about you whatsoever to want to improve your quality of life and wanting to support your family in varying ways. I have zero shade to throw at either one of those people. And when it comes to which of those two people do I want to hire, I have no preference in either direction because both are valid and both have directions that they can think in that the other one may not necessarily see for a variety of reasons. It's fine.Mark: I wanted to be an engineering manager. You know why? Not because I loved leadership; because I wanted more money.Corey: Yes.Mark: So, I've been in the industry for quite a long time. I'm a little bit on the older side of the story, right? I'm a little bit older. You know, for me, before we got ‘staff' and ‘principal' and all this kind of stuff, it was senior software engineer and then you topped out in terms of your earning potential. But if you wanted more, you became a manager, director, et cetera.So, that's why I wanted to be a manager for a while; I wanted more money, so why is my choice to be a manager more valuable than those people who want to make more money by coming into engineering or software development? I don't think it is.Corey: So, we've talked about positivity, we've talked about dealing with unpleasant people, we've talked about technology, and then, of course, we've talked about getting up on soapboxes. Let's tie all of that together for one last topic. What is your position on open-source in cloud?Mark: I think open-source software allows us to do a lot of incredible things. And I know that's a very light, fluffy, politically correct answer, but it is true, right? So, we get to take advantage of the brains of so many different people, all the ideas and contributions of so many different people so that we can do incredible things. And I think cloud really makes the world more accessible in general because—so when I used to do websites, I had to have a physical server that I would have to, like, try to talk to my ISP to be able to host things. And so, there was a lot of barriers to entry to do things that way.Now, with cloud and open-source, I could literally pick up a tool and deploy some software to the cloud. And the tool could you open-source so I can actually see what's happening and I could pick up other tools to help build out my vision for whatever I'm creating. So, I think open-source just gives a lot of opportunity.Corey: Oh, my stars, yes. It's even far more so than when I entered the field, and even back then there were challenges. One of the most democratizing aspects of cloud is that you can work with the same technologies that giant companies are using. When I entered the workforce, it's, “Wow, you're really good with Apache, but it seems like you don't really know a whole lot about the world of enterprise storage. What's going on with that?”And the honest answer was, “Well, it turns out that on my laptop, I can compile Apache super easily, but I'm finding it hard, given that I'm new to the workforce, to afford a $300,000 SAN in my garage, so maybe we can wind up figuring out that there are other ways to do it.” That doesn't happen today. Now, you can spin something up in the cloud, use it for a little bit. You're done, turn it off, and then never again have to worry about it except over in AWS land where you get charged 22 cents a month in perpetuity for some godforsaken reason you can't be bothered to track down and certainly no one can understand because, you know, cloud billing.Mark: [laugh].Corey: But if that's the tax versus the SAN tax, I'll take it.Mark: So, what I think is really interesting what cloud does, I like the word democratization because I think about going back to—just as a lateral reference to the bootcamp thing—I couldn't get my parents to see my software when I was in college when I made stuff because it was on my laptop. But when I was teaching these bootcamp students, they all deployed to Heroku. So, in their first couple of months, the cloud was allowing them to do something super cool that was not possible in the early days when I was coming up, learning how to code. And so they could deploy to Heroku, they could use GitHub Pages, you know like, open-source still coming into play. They can use all these tools and it's available to them, and I still think to me that is mind-blowing that I would have to bring my physical laptop or desktop home and say, “Mom, look at this terminal window that's doing this algorithm that I just did,” versus what these new people can do with the cloud. It's like, “Oh, yeah, I want to build a website. I want to publish it today. Publish right now.” Like, during our conversation, we both could have probably spent up a Hello World in the cloud with very little.Corey: Well, you could have. I could have done it in some horrifying way by using my favorite database: DNS. But that's a separate problem.Mark: [laugh]. Yeah, but I go to Firebase deploy and create a quick app real quick; Firebase deploy. Boom, I'm in the cloud. And I just think that the power behind that is just outstanding.Corey: If I had to pick a single cloud provider for someone new to the field to work with, it would be Google Cloud, and it's not particularly close. Just because the developer experience for someone who has not spent ten years marinating in cloud is worlds apart from what you're going to see in almost every other provider. I take it back, it is close. Neck-and-neck in different ways is also DigitalOcean, just because it explains things; their documentation is amazing and it lets people get started. My challenge with DigitalOcean is that it's not thought of, commonly, as a tier-one cloud provider in a lot of different directions, so the utility of learning how that platform works for someone who's planning to be in the industry for a while might potentially not get them as far.But again, there's no wrong answer. Whatever interests you, whenever you have to work on, do it. The obvious question of, “What technology should I learn,” it's, “Well, the ones that the companies you know are working with,” [laugh] so you can, ideally, turn it into something that throws off money, rather than doing it in your spare time for the love of it and not reaping any rewards from it.Mark: Yeah. If people ask me what should they use it to build something? And I think about what they want to do. And I also will say, “What will get you to ship the fastest? How can you ship?”Because that's what's really important for most people because people don't finish things. You know, as an engineer, how many side projects you probably have in the closet that never saw the light of day because you never shipped. I always say to people, “Well, what's going to get you to ship?” If it's View, use View and pair that with DigitalOcean, if that's going to get you to ship, right? Or use Angular plus Google Cloud Platform if that's going to get you to ship.Use what's going to get you to ship because—if it's just your project you're trying to run on. Now, if it's a company asking me, that's a consulting question which is a different answer. We do a much more in-detail analysis.Corey: I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me about, honestly, a very wide-ranging group of topics. If people want to learn more about who you are, how you think, what you're up to, where can they find you?Mark: You can always find me spreading the love, being positive, hanging out. Look, if you want to feel better about yourself, come find me on Twitter at @marktechson—M-A-R-K-T-E-C-H-S-O-N. I'm out there waiting for you, so just come on and have a good time.Corey: And we will, of course, throw links to that in the [show notes 00:36:45]. Thank you so much for your time today.Mark: Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.Corey: Mark Thompson, developer relations engineer at Google. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, deranged comment that you spent several weeks rehearsing in the elevator.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition
Modernize or Die® - CFML News for October 27th, 2021 - Episode 123

Modernize or Die ® Podcast - CFML News Edition

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 65:44


2021-10-27 Weekly News - Episode 123Watch the video version on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLQhiLcHpH0 Hosts: Brad Wood - Senior Developer for Ortus SolutionsGavin Pickin - Senior Developer for Ortus SolutionsThanks to our Sponsor - Ortus SolutionsThe makers of ColdBox, CommandBox, ForgeBox, TestBox and almost every other Box out there. A few ways  to say thanks back to Ortus Solutions: Like and subscribe to our videos on YouTube.  Sign up for a free or paid account on CFCasts, which is releasing new content every week Buy Ortus's new Book - 102 ColdBox HMVC Quick Tips and Tricks on GumRoad (http://gum.co/coldbox-tips) Patreon SupportWe have 37 patreons providing 93% of the funding for our Modernize or Die Podcasts via our Patreon site: https://www.patreon.com/ortussolutions. Now offering Annual Memberships, pay for the year and save 10% - great for businesses.News and EventsPreside Version 10.16.0 is outSee our release and upgrade notes/video:Video: https://t.co/OZo8qRURWe Release Notes: https://t.co/bSt8vA9OT3 Documentation: https://t.co/k3P3rHff6k Online CF Meetup - Using LaunchDarkly for feature flag management in CF applications, w/ Brad WoodThursday, October 28, 2021 at 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM PDTFeature flags are a system of enabling certain functionality in your app based on test groups, cross-cutting segments of users, and your internal release processes. Feature flags can be updated on the fly at any time by any user and don't require deploying new code to your servers. LaunchDarkly is a system that helps you manage your feature flags and how they respond to the users of your site. It offers detailed tracking of each user, each flag, and a robust set of rules for determining which users see which features. In this session, we'll see an overview of how to use the new LaunchDarkly SDK which can be used in ColdFusion applications. Demos will include both ColdBox apps and non-ColdBox legacy apps.https://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/281577538/ Adobe 1 Day Workshop - Adobe ColdFusion Workshop with Damien BruyndonckxWed, November 10, 202109:00 - 17:00 CEST EUROPEANJoin the Adobe ColdFusion Workshop to learn how you and your agency can leverage ColdFusion to create amazing web content. This one-day training will cover all facets of Adobe ColdFusion that developers need to build applications that can run across multiple cloud providers or on-premise.https://coldfusion-workshop.meetus.adobeevents.com/ ICYMI - Into the Box 2021 - Videos are now availableVideos are now available on CFCasts!https://cfcasts.com/series/into-the-box-2021Free for subscribers; Free for ITB 2021 attendees; available as a one-time purchase for $199.If you bought a ticket to Into the Box 2021 and have not received a coupon for access to the videos on CFCasts, please contact us from the CFCasts support page. https://cfcasts.com/supportICYMI - Ortus Webinar for October - Gavin Pickin - Building Quick APIs - the extended versionIn this session we will use ColdBox's built in REST BaseHandler, and with CBSecurity and Quick ORM we will set up a secure API using fluent query language - and you'll see how quick Quick development can be!https://www.ortussolutions.com/events/webinarsRecording will be posted to CFCasts soonHacktoberfest 2021Support open source throughout October!Hacktoberfest encourages participation in the open source community, which grows bigger every year. Complete the 2021 challenge and earn a limited edition T-shirt.GIVING TO OPEN SOURCEOpen-source projects keep the internet humming—but they can't do it without resources. Donate and support their awesome work.TREES NOT TEESRather than receive t-shirts as swag, you can choose to have a tree planted in your name and help make Hacktoberfest 2021 more carbon neutral.To win a reward, you must sign up on the Hacktoberfest site and make four pull requests on any repositories classified with the 'hacktoberfest 'topic on GitHub or GitLab by October 31. If an Ortus Solutions repo that you want to contribute to is not marked with the `hacktoberfest` topic, please let us know so we can fix it.https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com/ CFCasts Content Updateshttps://www.cfcasts.com Just ReleasedUp and Running with Quick Testing with Quick Step 11 Exercise Coming this week Up and Running with Quick Building Quick APIs Send your suggestions at https://cfcasts.com/supportConferences and TrainingMicrosoft IgniteNovember 2–4, 2021 Opportunity awaits, with dedicated content spotlighting Microsoft Business Applications and Microsoft Security.https://myignite.microsoft.com/homeDeploy by Digital OceanTHE VIRTUAL CONFERENCE FOR GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT TEAMSNovember 16-17, 2021 https://deploy.digitalocean.com/homeAWS re:InventNOV. 29 – DEC. 3, 2021 | LAS VEGAS, NVCELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF RE:INVENTVirtual: FreeIn Person: $1799https://reinvent.awsevents.com/ Postgres BuildOnline - FreeNov 30-Dev 1 2021https://www.postgresbuild.com/ ITB Latam 2021December 2-3, 2021Into the Box LATAM is back and better than ever! Our virtual conference will include speakers from El Salvador and all over the world, who'll present on the latest web and mobile technologies in Latin America.Registration is completely free so don't miss out!https://latam.intothebox.org/ Adobe ColdFusion Summit 2021December 7th and 8th - VirtualSpeakers are finalized and some Speakers and some session descriptions are now on the siteRegister for Free - https://cfsummit.vconfex.com/site/adobe-cold-fusion-summit-2021/1290Blog - https://coldfusion.adobe.com/2021/09/adobe-coldfusion-summit-2021-registrations-open/ Tweet from Mark Takata OK! I can finally let you all know that for the @Adobe @coldfusion #CFSummit2021 keynote we will be featuring @ashleymcnamara! Her talk will focus on the history & future of DevRel how we got here & where we're going.cfsummit.vconfex.com to register!#CFML #DevRel #conferencehttps://twitter.com/MarkTakata/status/1449063259072438277 https://twitter.com/MarkTakata jConf.devNow a free virtual eventDecember 9th starting at 8:30 am CDT/2:30 pm UTC.https://2021.jconf.dev/?mc_cid=b62adc151d&mc_eid=8293d6fdb0 More conferencesNeed more conferences, this site has a huge list of conferences for almost any language/community.https://confs.tech/Blogs, Tweets and Videos of the WeekBlog - Ben Nadel - Reading Environment (ENV) Variables From The Server Scope In Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47This is a pro-tip that I originally picked up from Julian Halliwell a few years ago. However, I sometimes talk to people who don't realize that this is possible. So, I wanted to try and amplify Julian's post. In Lucee CFML, you can read environment (ENV) variables directly out of the server scope. They are just automatically there - no dipping into the Java layer or dealing with the java.lang.System class. Lucee CFML brings these values to the surface for easy consumption.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4140-reading-environment-env-variables-from-the-server-scope-in-lucee-cfml-5-3-7-47.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Making SQL Queries More Flexible With LIKE In MySQL 5.7.32 And Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47While you might stand-up something like Elasticsearch, Lucene, or Solr in order to provide robust and flexible text-based searches in your ColdFusion application, your relational database is more than capable of performing (surprisingly fast) pattern matching on TEXT and VARCHAR fields using the LIKE operator. This is especially true if the SQL query in question is already being limited based on an indexed value. At InVision, I often use the LIKE operator to allow for light-weight text-based searches. And, as of late, I've been massaging the inputs in order to make the matches even more flexible, allowing for some slightly fuzzy matching in Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4137-making-sql-queries-more-flexible-with-like-in-mysql-5-7-32-and-lucee-cfml-5-3-7-47.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Creating A Group-Based Incrementing Value In MySQL 5.7.32 And Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47In the past few weeks, I've been learning a lot about how I can leverage SERIALIZABLE transactions in MySQL, the scope of said transactions, and some hidden gotchas around locking empty rows. As a means to lock (no pun intended) some of that information in my head-meat, I thought it would be a fun code kata to create a Jira-inspired ticketing system in Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47 that uses an application-defined, group-based incrementing value in MySQL 5.7.32.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4135-creating-a-group-based-incrementing-value-in-mysql-5-7-32-and-lucee-cfml-5-3-7-47.htm Blog - Ben Nadel - Creating A Group-Based Incrementing Value Using LAST_INSERT_ID() In MySQL 5.7.32 And Lucee CFML 5.3.7.47Yesterday, I took inspiration from Jira's ticketing system and explored the idea of creating a group-based incrementing value in MySQL. In my approach, I used a SERIALIZABLE transaction to safely "update and read" a shared sequence value across parallel threads. In response to that post, my InVision co-worker - Michael Dropps - suggested that I look at using LAST_INSERT_ID(expr) to achieve the same outcome with less transaction isolation. I had never seen the LAST_INSERT_ID() function used with an expression argument before. So, I wanted to revisit yesterday's post using this technique.https://www.bennadel.com/blog/4136-creating-a-group-based-incrementing-value-using-last-insert-id-in-mysql-5-7-32-and-lucee-cfml-5-3-7-47.htm Blog / Documentation - Zac Spitszer - Building and testing Lucee extensions documentationI have written up a detailed guide on how to Build and Test Lucee Extensions, using Lucee Script Runner and Apache Ant.It's a little bit complicated to setup, but I have developed a toolchain, which once set up, makes the entire process really dead simple.https://dev.lucee.org/t/building-and-testing-lucee-extensions-documentation/9053 Tweet - Mark Takata - Adobe - The CF Summit 2021 Keynote announcementOK! I can finally let you all know that for the @Adobe @coldfusion #CFSummit2021 keynote we will be featuring @ashleymcnamara! Her talk will focus on the history & future of DevRel how we got here & where we're going.cfsummit.vconfex.com to register!#CFML #DevRel #conferencehttps://twitter.com/MarkTakata/status/1449063259072438277 https://twitter.com/MarkTakata Tweet - Ben Nadel - Monolith DeploysIt's 10:50 AM.I work in a monolithic #Lucee #CFML codebase.And, I just started my 3rd deployment of the day.It's amazing how much work you can get done when you stop worrying about what other people think of your technology choices.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
RocketJam: A PodRocket/FSJam Mashup

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 22, 2021 62:25


This is a PodRocket/FSJam Mashup. Members from both PodRocket and FSJam talk about some of their favorite episodes, how the podcasts got started, what it's like creating a podcast in the web dev space, what trends they have seen, and more. Links https://fsjam.org (https://fsjam.org) https://twitter.com/ajcwebdev (https://twitter.com/ajcwebdev) https://twitter.com/BurnedChris (https://twitter.com/BurnedChris) https://everfund.co.uk (https://everfund.co.uk) https://syntax.fm (https://syntax.fm) https://podrocket.logrocket.com/3 (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/3) https://fsjam.org/episodes/episode-4-bringing-fullstack-to-the-jamstack-with-tom-preston-werner (https://fsjam.org/episodes/episode-4-bringing-fullstack-to-the-jamstack-with-tom-preston-werner) https://modernweb.podbean.com/e/s08e017-modern-web-podcast-blockchain-curious-it-s-easy-js-developers-should-start-learning (https://modernweb.podbean.com/e/s08e017-modern-web-podcast-blockchain-curious-it-s-easy-js-developers-should-start-learning) https://saas.transistor.fm (https://saas.transistor.fm) https://atp.fm (https://atp.fm) https://www.rev.com (https://www.rev.com) https://fsjam.org/episodes/episode-14-programming-cultures-with-peter-cooper (https://fsjam.org/episodes/episode-14-programming-cultures-with-peter-cooper) https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/build-with-nhost-nhost-CAL_H5blDIx/ (https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/build-with-nhost-nhost-CAL_H5blDIx/) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup?pdr) Special Guests: Anthony Campolo and Christopher Burns.

Screaming in the Cloud
Navigating the Morass of the Internet with Chloe Condon

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2021 42:32


About ChloeChloe is a Bay Area based Cloud Advocate for Microsoft. Previously, she worked at Sentry.io where she created the award winning Sentry Scouts program (a camp themed meet-up ft. patches, s'mores, giant squirrel costumes, and hot chocolate), and was featured in the Grace Hopper Conference 2018 gallery featuring 15 influential women in STEM by AnitaB.org. Her projects and work with Azure have ranged from fake boyfriend alerts to Mario Kart 'astrology', and have been featured in VICE, The New York Times, as well as SmashMouth's Twitter account. Chloe holds a BA in Drama from San Francisco State University and is a graduate of Hackbright Academy. She prides herself on being a non-traditional background engineer, and is likely one of the only engineers who has played an ogre, crayon, and the back-end of a cow on a professional stage. She hopes to bring more artists into tech, and more engineers into the arts.Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChloeCondon Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gitforked/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ChloeCondonVideos TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats v-u-l-t-r.com slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate: is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards, while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other, which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at Honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability, it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Somehow in the years this show has been running, I've only had Chloe Condon on once. In that time, she's over for dinner at my house way more frequently than that, but somehow the stars never align to get us together in front of microphones and have a conversation. First, welcome back to the show, Chloe. You're a senior cloud advocate at Microsoft on the Next Generation Experiences Team. It is great to have you here.Chloe: I'm back, baby. I'm so excited. This is one of my favorite shows to listen to, and it feels great to be a repeat guest, a friend of the pod. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yes indeed. So, something-something cloud, something-something Microsoft, something-something Azure, I don't particularly care, in light of what it is you have going on that you have just clued me in on, and we're going to talk about that to start. You're launching something new called Master Creep Theatre and I have a whole bunch of questions. First and foremost, is it theater or theatre? How is that spelled? Which—the E and the R, what direction does that go in?Chloe: Ohh, I feel like it's going to be the R-E because that makes it very fancy and almost British, you know?Corey: Oh, yes. And the Harlequin mask direction it goes in, that entire aesthetic, I love it. Please tell me what it is. I want to know the story of how it came to be, the sheer joy I get from playing games with language alone guarantee I'm going to listen to whatever this is, but please tell me more.Chloe: Oh, my goodness. Okay, so this is one of those creative projects that's been on my back burner forever where I'm like, someday when I have time, I'm going to put all my time [laugh] and energy into this. So, this originally stemmed from—if you don't follow me on Twitter, oftentimes when I'm not tweeting about '90s nostalgia, or Clippy puns, or Microsoft silly throwback things to Windows 95, I get a lot of weird DMs. On every app, not just Twitter. On Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, oh my gosh, what else is there?Corey: And I don't want to be clear here just to make this absolutely crystal clear, “Hey, Chloe, do you want to come back on Screaming in the Cloud again?” Is not one of those weird DMs to which you're referring?Chloe: No, that is a good DM. So, people always ask me, “Why don't you just close your DMs?” Because a lot of high profile people on the internet just won't even have their DMs open.Corey: Oh, I understand that, but I'm the same boat. I would have a lot less nonsense, but at the same time, I want—at least in my case—I want people to be able to reach out to me because the only reason I am what I am is that a bunch of people who had no reason to do it did favors for me—Chloe: Yes.Corey: —and I can't ever repay it, I can only ever pay it forward and that is the cost of doing favors. If I can help someone, I will, and that's hard to do with, “My DMs are closed so hunt down my email address and send me an email,” and I'm bad at email.Chloe: Right. I'm terrible at email as well, and I'm also terrible at DMs [laugh]. So, I think a lot of folks don't understand the volume at which I get messages, which if you're a good friend of mine, if you're someone like Corey or a dear friend like Emily, I will tell you, “Hey, if you actually need to get ahold of me, text me.” And text me a couple times because I probably see it and then I have ADHD, so I won't immediately respond. I think I respond in my head but I don't.But I get anywhere from, I would say, ohh, like, 30 on a low day to 100 on a day where I have a viral tweet about getting into tech with a non-traditional background or something like that. And these DMs that I get are really lovely messages like, “Thank you for the work you do,” or, “I decided to do a cute manicure because the [laugh] manicure you posted,” too, “How do I get into tech? How do I get a job at Microsoft?” All kinds of things. It runs the gamut between, “Where's your shirt from?” Where—[laugh]—“What's your mother's maiden name?”But a lot of the messages that I get—and if you're a woman on the internet with any sort of presence, you know how there's that, like—what's it called in Twitter—the Other Messages feature that's like, “Here's the people you know. Here's the people”—the message requests. For the longest time were just, “Hey,” “Hi,” “Hey dear,” “Hi pretty,” “Hi ma'am,” “Hello,” “Love you,” just really weird stuff. And of course, everyone gets these; these are bots or scammers or whatever they may be—or just creeps, like weird—and always the bio—not always but I [laugh] would say, like, these accounts range from either obviously a bot where it's a million different numbers, an account that says, “Father, husband, lover of Jesus Christ and God.” Which is so [laugh] ironic… I'm like, “Why are you in my DMs?”Corey: A man of God, which is why I'm in your DMs being creepy.Chloe: Exactly. Or—Corey: Just like Christ might have.Chloe: And you would be shocked, Corey, at how many. The thing that I love to say is Twitter is not a dating site. Neither is LinkedIn. Neither is Instagram. I post about my boyfriend all the time, who you've met, and we adore Ty Smith, but I've never received any unsolicited images, knock on wood, but I'm always getting these very bait-y messages like, “Hey, beautiful. I want to take you out.” And you would be shocked at how many of these people are doing it from their professional business account. [laugh]. Like, works at AWS, works at Google; it's like, oh my God. [laugh].Corey: You get this under your name, right? It ties back to it. Meanwhile—again, this is one of those invisible areas of privilege that folks who look like me don't have to deal with. My DM graveyard is usually things like random bot accounts, always starting with, “Hi,” or, “Hey.” If you want to guarantee I never respond to you, that is what you say. I just delete those out of hand because I don't notice or care. It is either a bot, or a scam, or someone who can't articulate what they're actually trying to get from me—Chloe: Exactly.Corey: —and I don't have the time for it. Make your request upfront. Don't ask to ask; just ask.Chloe: I think it's important to note, also, that I get a lot of… different kinds of these messages and they try to respond to everyone. I cannot. If I responded to everybody's messages that I got, I just wouldn't have any time to do my job. But the thing that I always say to people—you know, and managers have told me in the past, my boyfriend has encouraged me to do this, is when people say things like, “Close your DMs,” or, “Just ignore them,” I want to have the same experience that everybody else has on the internet. Now, it's going to be a little different, of course, because I look and act and sound like I do, and of course, podcasts are historically a visual medium, so I'm a five-foot-two, white, bright orange-haired girl; I'm a very quirky individual.Corey: Yes, if you look up ‘quirky,' you're right there under the dictionary definition. And every time—like, when we were first hanging out and you mentioned, “Oh yeah, I used to be in theater.” And it's like, “You know, you didn't even have to tell me that, on some level.” Which is not intended to be an insult. It's just theater folks are a bit of a type, and you are more or less the archetype of what a theatre person is, at least to my frame of reference.Chloe: And not only that, but I did musicals, so you can't see the jazz hands now, but–yeah, my degree is in drama. I come from that space and I just, you know, whenever people say, “Just ignore it,” or, “Close your DMs,” I'm like, I want people to be able to reach out to me; I want to be able to message one-on-one with Corey and whoever, when—as needed, and—Corey: Why should I close my DMs?Chloe: Yeah.Corey: They're the ones who suck. Yeah.Chloe: [laugh]. But over the years, to give people a little bit of context, I've been working in tech a long time—I've been working professionally in the DevRel space for about five or six years now—but I've worked in tech a long time, I worked as a recruiter, an office admin, executive assistant, like, I did all of the other areas of tech, but it wasn't until I got a presence on Twitter—which I've only been on Twitter for I think five years; I haven't been on there that long, actively. And to give some context on that, Twitter is not a social media platform used in the theater space. We just use Instagram and Facebook, really, back in the day, I'm not on Facebook at all these days. So, when I discovered Twitter was cool—and I should also mention my boyfriend, Ty, was working at Twitter at the time and I was like, “Twitter's stupid. Who would go on this—[laugh] who uses this app?”Fast-forward to now, I'm like—Ty's like, “Can you please get off Twitter?” But yeah, I think I've just been saving these screenshots over the last five or so years from everything from my LinkedIn, from all the crazy stuff that I dealt with when people thought I was a Bitcoin influencer to people being creepy. One of the highlights that I recently found when I was going back and trying to find these for this series that I'm doing is there was a guy from Australia, DMed me something like, “Hey, beautiful,” or, “Hey, sexy,” something like that. And I called him out. And I started doing this thing where I would post it on Twitter.I would usually hide their image with a clown emoji or something to make it anonymous, or not to call them out, but in this one I didn't, and this guy was defending himself in the comments, and to me in my DM's saying, “Oh, actually, this was a social experiment and I have all the screenshots of this,” right? So, imagine if you will—so I have conversations ranging from things like that where it's like, “Actually I messaged a bunch of people about that because I'm doing a social experiment on how people respond to, ‘Hey beautiful. I'd love to take you out some time in Silicon Valley.'” just the weirdest stuff right? So, me being the professional performer that I am, was like, these are hilarious.And I kept thinking to myself, anytime I would get these messages, I was like, “Does this work?” If you just go up to someone and say, “Hey”—do people meet this way? And of course, you get people on Twitter who when you tweet something like that, they're like, “Actually, I met my boyfriend in Twitter DMs,” or like, “I met my boyfriend because he slid into my DMs on Instagram,” or whatever. But that's not me. I have a boyfriend. I'm not interested. This is not the time or the place.So, it's been one of those things on the back burner for three or four years that I've just always been saving these images to a folder, thinking, “Okay, when I have the time when I have the space, the creative energy and the bandwidth to do this,” and thankfully for everyone I do now, I'm going to do dramatic readings of these DMs with other people in tech, and show—not even just to make fun of these people, but just to show, like, how would this work? What do you expect the [laugh] outcome to be? So Corey, for example, if you were to come on, like, here's a great example. A year ago—this is 2018; we're in 2021 right now—this guy messaged me in December of 2018, and was like, “Hey,” and then was like, “I would love to be your friend.” And I was like, “Nope,” and I responded, “Nope, nope, nope, nope.” There's a thread of this on Twitter. And then randomly, three weeks ago, just sent me this video to the tune of Enrique Iglesias' “Rhythm Divine” of just images of himself. [laugh]. So like, this comedy [crosstalk 00:10:45]—Corey: Was at least wearing pants?Chloe: He is wearing pants. It's very confusing. It's a picture—a lot of group photos, so I didn't know who he was. But in my mind because, you know, I'm an engineer, I'm trying to think through the end-user experience. I'm like, “What was your plan here?”With all these people I'm like, “So, your plan is just to slide into my DMs and woo me with ‘Hey'?” [laugh]. So, I think it'll be really fun to not only just show and call out this behavior but also take submissions from other people in the industry, even beyond tech, really, because I know anytime I tweet an example of this, I get 20 different women going, “Oh, my gosh, you get these weird messages, too?” And I really want to show, like, A, to men how often this happens because like you said, I think a lot of men say, “Just ignore it.” Or, “I don't get anything like that. You must be asking for it.”And I'm like, “No. This comes to me. These people find us and me and whoever else out there gets these messages,” and I'm just really ready to have a laugh at their expense because I've been laughing for years. [laugh].Corey: Back when I was a teenager, I was working in some fast food style job, and one of my co-workers saw customer, walked over to her, and said, “You're beautiful.” And she smiled and blushed. He leaned in and kissed her.Chloe: Ugh.Corey: And I'm sitting there going what on earth? And my other co-worker leaned over and is like, “You do know that's his girlfriend, right?” And I have to feel like, on some level, that is what happened to an awful lot of these broken men out on the internet, only they didn't have a co-worker to lean over and say, “Yeah, they actually know each other.” Which is why we see all this [unintelligible 00:12:16] behavior of yelling at people on the street as they walk past, or from a passing car. Because they saw someone do a stunt like that once and thought, “If it worked for them, it could work for me. It only has to work once.”And they're trying to turn this into a one day telling the grandkids how they met their grandmother. And, “Yeah, I yelled at her from a construction site, and it was love at first ‘Hey, baby.'” That is what I feel is what's going on. I have never understood it. I look back at my dating history in my early 20s, I look back now I'm like, “Ohh, I was not a great person,” but compared to these stories, I was a goddamn prince.Chloe: Yeah.Corey: It's awful.Chloe: It's really wild. And actually, I have a very vivid memory, this was right bef—uh, not right before the pandemic, but probably in 2019. I was speaking on a lot of conferences and events, and I was at this event in San Jose, and there were not a lot of women there. And somehow this other lovely woman—I can't remember her name right now—found me afterwards, and we were talking and she said, “Oh, my God. I had—this is such a weird event, right?”And I was like, “Yeah, it is kind of a weird vibe here.” And she said, “Ugh, so the weirdest thing happened to me. This guy”—it was her first tech conference ever, first of all, so you know—or I think it was her first tech conference in the Bay Area—and she was like, “Yeah, this guy came to my booth. I've been working this booth over here for this startup that I work at, and he told me he wanted to talk business. And then I ended up meeting him, stupidly, in my hotel lobby bar, and it's a date. Like, this guy is taking me out on a date all of a sudden,” and she was like, “And it took me about two minutes to just to be like, you know what? This is inappropriate. I thought this is going to be a business meeting. I want to go.”And then she shows me her hands, Corey, and she has a wedding ring. And she goes, “I'm not married. I have bought five or six different types of rings on Wish App”—or wish.com, which if you've never purchased from Wish before, it's very, kind of, low priced jewelry and toys and stuff of that nature. And she said, “I have a different wedding ring for every occasion. I've got my beach fake wedding ring. I've got my, we-got-married-with-a-bunch-of-mason-jars-in-the-woods fake wedding ring.”And she said she started wearing these because when she did, she got less creepy guys coming up to her at these events. And I think it's important to note, also, I'm not putting it out there at all that I'm interested in men. If anything, you know, I've been [laugh] with my boyfriend for six years never putting out these signals, and time and time again, when I would travel, I was very, very careful about sharing my location because oftentimes I would be on stage giving a keynote and getting messages while I delivered a technical keynote saying, “I'd love to take you out to dinner later. How long are you in town?” Just really weird, yucky, nasty stuff that—you know, and everyone's like, “You should be flattered.”And I'm like, “No. You don't have to deal with this. It's not like a bunch of women are wolf-whistling you during your keynote and asking what your boob size is.” But that's happening to me, and that's an extra layer that a lot of folks in this industry don't talk about but is happening and it adds up. And as my boyfriend loves to remind me, he's like, “I mean, you could stop tweeting at any time,” which I'm not going to do. But the more followers you get, the more inbound you get. So—Corey: Right. And the hell of it is, it's not a great answer because it's closing off paths of opportunity. Twitter has—Chloe: Absolutely.Corey: —introduced me to clients, introduced me to friends, introduced me to certainly an awful lot of podcast guests, and it informs and shapes a lot of the opinions that I hold on these things. And this is an example of what people mean when they talk about privilege. Where, yeah, “Look at Corey”—I've heard someone say once, and, “Nothing was handed to him.” And you're right, to be clear, I did not—like, no one handed me a microphone and said, “We're going to give you a podcast, now.” I had to build this myself.But let's be clear, I had no headwinds of working against me while I did it. There's the, you still have to do things, but you don't have an entire cacophony of shit heels telling you that you're not good enough in a variety of different ways, to subtly reinforcing your only value is the way that you look. There isn't this whole, whenever you get something wrong and it's a, “Oh, well, that's okay. We all get things wrong.” It's not the, “Girls suck at computers,” trope that we see so often.There's a litany of things that are either supportive that work in my favor, or are absent working against me that is privilege that is invisible until you start looking around and seeing it, and then it becomes impossible not to. I know I've talked about this before on the show, but no one listens to everything and I just want to subtly reinforce that if you're one of those folks who will say things like, “Oh, privilege isn't real,” or, “You can have bigotry against white people, too.” I want to be clear, we are not the same. You are not on my side on any of this, and to be very direct, I don't really care what you have to say.Chloe: Yeah. And I mean, this even comes into play in office culture and dynamics as well because I am always the squeaky wheel in the room on these kind of things, but a great example that I'll give is I know several women in this industry who have had issues when they used to travel for conferences of being stalked, people showing up at their hotel rooms, just really inappropriate stuff, and for that reason, a lot of folks—including myself—wouldn't pick the conference event—like, typically they'll be like, “This is the hotel everyone's staying at.” I would very intentionally stay at a different hotel because I didn't want people knowing where I was staying. But I started to notice once a friend of mine, who had an issue with this [unintelligible 00:17:26], I really like to be private about where I'm staying, and sometimes if you're working at a startup or larger company, they'll say, “Hey, everyone put in this Excel spreadsheet or this Google Doc where everyone's staying and how to contact them, and all this stuff.” And I think it's really important to be mindful of these things.I always say to my friends—I'm not going out too much these days because it's a pandemic—and I've done Twitter threads on this before where I never post my location; you will never see me. I got rid of Swarm a couple [laugh] years ago because people started showing up where I was. I posted photos before, you know, “Hey, at the lake right now.” And people have shown up. Dinners, people have recognized me when I've been out.So, I have an espresso machine right over here that my lovely boyfriend got me for my birthday, and someone commented, “Oh, we're just going to act like we don't see someone's reflection in the”—like, people Zoom in on images. I've read stories from cosplayers online who, they look into the reflection of a woman's glasses and can figure out where they are. So, I think there's this whole level. I'm constantly on alert, especially as a woman in tech. And I have friends here in the Bay Area, who have tweeted a photo at a barbecue, and then someone was like, “Hey, I live in the neighborhood, and I recognize the tree.”First of all, don't do that. Don't ever do that. Even if you think you're a nice, unassuming guy or girl or whatever, don't ever [laugh] do that. But I very intentionally—people get really confused, my friends specifically. They're like, “Wait a second, you're in Hawaii right now? I thought you were in Hawaii three weeks ago.” And I'm like, “I was. I don't want anyone even knowing what island or continent I'm on.”And that's something that I think about a lot. When I post photo—I never post any photos from my window. I don't want people knowing what my view is. People have figured out what neighborhood I live in based on, like, “I know where that graffiti is.” I'm very strategic about all this stuff, and I think there's a lot of stuff that I want to share that I don't share because of privacy issues and concerns about my safety. And also want to say and this is in my thread on online safety as well is, don't call out people's locations if you do recognize the image because then you're doxxing them to everyone like, “Oh”—Corey: I've had a few people do that in response to pictures I've posted before on a house, like, “Oh, I can look at this and see this other thing and then intuit where you are.” And first, I don't have that sense of heightened awareness on this because I still have this perception of myself as no one cares enough to bother, and on the other side, by calling that out in public. It's like, you do not present yourself well at all. In fact, you make yourself look an awful lot like the people that we're warned about. And I just don't get that.I have some of these concerns, especially as my audience has grown, and let's be very clear here, I antagonize trillion-dollar companies for a living. So, first if someone's going to have me killed, they can find where I am. That's pretty easy. It turns out that having me whacked is not even a rounding error on most of these companies' budgets, unfortunately. But also I don't have that level of, I guess, deranged superfan. Yet.But it happens in the fullness of time, as people's audiences continue to grow. It just seems an awful lot like it happens at much lower audience scale for folks who don't look like me. I want to be clear, this is not a request for anyone listening to this, to try and become that person for me, you will get hosed, at minimum. And yes, we press charges here.Chloe: AWSfan89, sliding into your DMs right after this. Yeah, it's also just like—I mean, I don't want to necessarily call out what company this was at, but personally, I've been in situations where I've thrown an event, like a meetup, and I'm like, “Hey, everyone. I'm going to be doing ‘Intro to blah, blah, blah' at this time, at this place.” And three or four guys would show up, none of them with computers. It was a freaking workshop on how to do or deploy something, or work with an API.And when I said, “Great, so why'd you guys come to this session today?” And maybe two have iPads, one just has a notepad, they're like, “Oh, I just wanted to meet you from Twitter.” And it's like, okay, that's a little disrespectful to me because I am taking time out to do this workshop on a very technical thing that I thought people were coming here to learn. And this isn't the Q&A. This is not your meet-and-greet opportunity to meet Chloe Condon, and I don't know why you would, like, I put so much of my life online [laugh] anyway.But yeah, it's very unsettling, and it's happened to me enough. Guys have shown up to my events and given me gifts. I mean, I'm always down for a free shirt or something, but it's one of those things that I'm constantly aware of and I hate that I have to be constantly aware of, but at the end of the day, my safety is the number one priority, and I don't want to get murdered. And I've tweeted this out before, our friend Emily, who's similarly a lady on the internet, who works with my boyfriend Ty over at Uber, we have this joke that's not a joke, where we say, “Hey if I'm murdered, this is who it was.” And we'll just send each other screenshots of creepy things that people either tag us in, or give us feedback on, or people asking what size shirt we are. Just, wiki feed stuff, just really some of the yucky of the yuck out there.And I do think that unless you have a partner, or a family member, or someone close enough to you to let you know about these things—because I don't talk about these things a lot other than my close friends, and maybe calling out a weirdo here and there in public, but I don't share the really yucky stuff. I don't share the people who are asking what neighborhood I live in. I'm not sharing the people who are tagging me, like, [unintelligible 00:22:33], really tagging me in some nasty TikToks, along with some other women out there. There are some really bad actors in this community and it is to the point where Emily and I will be like, “Hey, when you inevitably have to solve my murder, here's the [laugh] five prime suspects.” And that sucks. That's [unintelligible 00:22:48] joke; that isn't a joke, right? I suspect I will either die in an elevator accident or one of my stalkers will find me. [laugh].Corey: It's easy for folks to think, oh, well, this is a Chloe problem because she's loud, she's visible, she's quirky, she's different than most folks, and she brings it all on herself, and this is provably not true. Because if you talk to, effectively, any woman in the world in-depth about this, they all have stories that look awfully similar to this. And let me forestall some of the awful responses I know I'm going to get. And, “Well, none of the women I know have had experiences like this,” let me be very clear, they absolutely have, but for one reason or another, they either don't see the need, or don't see the value, or don't feel safe talking to you about it.Chloe: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel a lot of privilege, I'm very lucky that my boyfriend is a staff engineer at Uber, and I have lots of friends in high places at some of these companies like Reddit that work with safety and security and stuff, but oftentimes, a lot of the stories or insights or even just anecdotes that I will give people on their products are invaluable insights to a lot of these security and safety teams. Like, who amongst us, you know, [laugh] has used a feature and been like, “Wait a second. This is really, really bad, and I don't want to tweet about this because I don't want people to know that they can abuse this feature to stalk or harass or whatever that may be,” but I think a lot about the people who don't have the platform that I have because I have 50k-something followers on Twitter, I have a pretty big online following in general, and I have the platform that I do working at Microsoft, and I can tweet and scream and be loud as I can about this. But I think about the folks who don't have my audience, the people who are constantly getting harassed and bombarded, and I get these DMs all the time from women who say, “Thank you so much for doing a thread on this,” or, “Thank you for talking about this,” because people don't believe them.They're just like, “Oh, just ignore it,” or just, “Oh, it's just one weirdo in his basement, like, in his mom's basement.” And I'm like, “Yeah, but imagine that but times 40 in a week, and think about how that would make you rethink your place and your position in tech and even outside of tech.” Let's think of the people who don't know how this technology works. If you're on Instagram at all, you may notice that literally not only every post, but every Instagram story that has the word COVID in it, has the word vaccine, has anything, and they must be using some sort of cognitive scanning type thing or scanning the images themselves because this is a feature that basically says, hey, this post mentioned COVID in some way. I think if you even use the word mask, it alerts this.And while this is a great feature because we all want accurate information coming out about the pandemic, I'm like, “Wait a minute. So, you're telling me this whole time you could have been doing this for all the weird things that I get into my DMs, and people post?” And, like, it just shows you, yes, this is a global pandemic. Yes, this is something that affects everyone. Yes, it's important we get information out about this, but we can be using these features in much [laugh] more impactful ways that protects people's safety, that protects people's ability to feel safe on a platform.And I think the biggest one for me, and I make a lot of bots; I make a lot of Twitter bots and chatbots, and I've done entire series on this about ethical bot creation, but it's so easy—and I know this firsthand—to make a Twitter account. You can have more than one number, you can do with different emails. And with Instagram, they have this really lovely new feature that if you block someone, it instantly says, “You just blocked so and so. Would you like to block any other future accounts they make?” I mean, seems simple enough, right?Like, anything related—maybe they're doing it by email, or phone number, or maybe it's by IP, but like, that's not being done on a lot of these platforms, and it should be. I think someone mentioned in one of my threads on safety recently that Peloton doesn't have a block user feature. [laugh]. They're probably like, “Well, who's going to harass someone on Peloton?” It would happen to me. If I had a Peloton, [laugh] I assure you someone would find a way to harass me on there.So, I always tell people, if you're working at a company and you're not thinking about safety and harassment tools, you probably don't have anybody LGBTQ+ women, non-binary on your team, first of all, and you need to be thinking about these things, and you need to be making them a priority because if users can interact in some way, they will stalk, harass, they will find some way to misuse it. It seems like one of those weird edge cases where it's like, “Oh, we don't need to put a test in for that feature because no one's ever going to submit, like, just 25 emojis.” But it's the same thing with safety. You're like, who would harass someone on an app about bubblegum? One of my followers were. [laugh].Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: The biggest question that doesn't get asked that needs to be in almost every case is, “Okay. We're building a thing, and it's awesome. And I know it's hard to think like this, but pivot around. Theoretically, what could a jerk do with it?”Chloe: Yes.Corey: When you're designing it, it's all right, how do you account for people that are complete jerks?Chloe: Absolutely.Corey: Even the cloud providers, all of them, when the whole Parler thing hit, everyone's like, “Oh, Amazon is censoring people for freedom of speech.” No, they're actually not. What they're doing is enforcing their terms of service, the same terms of service that every provider that is not trash has. It is not a problem that one company decided they didn't want hate speech on their platform. It was all the companies decided that, except for some very fringe elements. And that's the sort of thing you have to figure out is, it's easy in theory to figure out, oh, anything goes; freedom of speech. Great, well, some forms of speech violate federal law.Chloe: Right.Corey: So, what do you do then? Where do you draw the line? And it's always nuanced and it's always tricky, and the worst people are the folks that love to rules-lawyer around these things. It gets worse than that where these are the same people that will then sit there and make bad faith arguments all the time. And lawyers have a saying that hard cases make bad law.When you have these very nuanced thing, and, “Well, we can't just do it off the cuff. We have to build a policy around this.” This is the problem with most corporate policies across the board. It's like, you don't need a policy that says you're not allowed to harass your colleagues with a stick. What you need to do is fire the jackwagon that made you think you might need a policy that said that.But at scale, that becomes a super-hard thing to do when every enforcement action appears to be bespoke. Because there are elements on the gray areas and the margins where reasonable people can disagree. And that is what sets the policy and that's where the precedent hits, and then you have these giant loopholes where people can basically be given free rein to be the worst humanity has to offer to some of the most vulnerable members of our society.Chloe: And I used to give this talk, I gave it at DockerCon one year and I gave it a couple other places, that was literally called “Diversity is not Equal to Stock Images of Hands.” And the reason I say this is if you Google image search ‘diversity' it's like all of those clip arts of, like, Rainbow hands, things that you would see at Kaiser Permanente where it's like, “We're all in this together,” like, the pandemic, it's all just hands on hands, hands as a Earth, hands as trees, hands as different colors. And people get really annoyed with people like me who are like, “Let's shut up about diversity. Let's just hire who's best for the role.” Here's the thing.My favorite example of this—RIP—is Fleets—remember Fleets? [laugh]—on Twitter, so if they had one gay man in the room for that marketing, engineering—anything—decision, one of them I know would have piped up and said, “Hey, did you know ‘fleets' is a commonly used term for douching enima in the gay community?” Now, I know that because I watch a lot of Ru Paul's Drag Race, and I have worked with the gay community quite a bit in my time in theater. But this is what I mean about making sure. My friend Becca who works in security at safety and things, as well as Andy Tuba over at Reddit, I have a lot of conversations with my friend Becca Rosenthal about this, and that, not to quote Hamilton, but if I must, “We need people in the room where it happens.”So, if you don't have these people in the room if you're a white man being like, “How will our products be abused?” Your guesses may be a little bit accurate but it was probably best to, at minimum, get some test case people in there from different genders, races, backgrounds, like, oh my goodness, get people in that room because what I tend to see is building safety tools, building even product features, or naming things, or designing things that could either be offensive, misused, whatever. So, when people have these arguments about like, “Diversity doesn't matter. We're hiring the best people.” I'm like, “Yeah, but your product's going to be better, and more inclusive, and represent the people who use it at the end of the day because not everybody is you.”And great examples of this include so many apps out there that exists that have one work location, one home location. How many people in the world have more than one job? That's such a privileged view for us, as people in tech, that we can afford to just have one job. Or divorced parents or whatever that may be, for home location, and thinking through these edge cases and thinking through ways that your product can support everyone, if anything, by making your staff or the people that you work with more diverse, you're going to be opening up your product to a much bigger marketable audience. So, I think people will look at me and be like, “Oh, Chloe's a social justice warrior, she's this feminist whatever,” but truly, I'm here saying, “You're missing out on money, dude.” It would behoove you to do this at the end of the day because your users aren't just a copy-paste of some dude in a Patagonia jacket with big headphones on. [laugh]. There are people beyond one demographic using your products and applications.Corey: A consistent drag against Clubhouse since its inception was that it's not an accessible app for a variety of reasons that were—Chloe: It's not an Android. [laugh].Corey: Well, even ignoring the platform stuff, which I get—technical reasons, et cetera, yadda, yadda, great—there is no captioning option. And a lot of their abuse stuff in the early days was horrific, where you would get notifications that a lot of people had this person blocked, but… that's not a helpful dynamic. “Did you talk to anyone? No, of course not. You Hacker News'ed it from first principles and thought this might be a good direction to go in.” This stuff is hard.People specialize in this stuff, and I've always been an advocate of when you're not sure what to do in an area, pay an expert for advice. All these stories about how people reach out to, “Their black friend”—and yes, it's a singular person in many cases—and their black friend gets very tired of doing all the unpaid emotional labor of all of this stuff. Suddenly, it's not that at all if you reach out to someone who is an expert in this and pay them for their expertise. I don't sit here complaining that my clients pay me to solve AWS billing problems. In fact, I actively encourage that behavior. Same model.There are businesses that specialize in this, they know the area, they know the risks, they know the ins and outs of this, and consults with these folks are not break the bank expensive compared to building the damn thing in the first place.Chloe: And here's a great example that literally drove me bananas a couple weeks ago. So, I don't know if you've participated in Twitter Spaces before, but I've done a couple of my first ones recently. Have you done one yet—Corey: Oh yes—Chloe: —Corey?Corey: —extensively. I love that. And again, that's a better answer for me than Clubhouse because I already have the Twitter audience. I don't have to build one from scratch on another platform.Chloe: So, I learned something really fascinating through my boyfriend. And remember, I mentioned earlier, my boyfriend is a staff engineer at Uber. He's been coding since he's been out of the womb, much more experienced than me. And I like to think a lot about, this is accessible to me but how is this accessible to a non-technical person? So, Ty finished up the Twitter Space that he did and he wanted to export the file.Now currently, as the time of this podcast is being recorded, the process to export a Twitter Spaces audio file is a nightmare. And remember, staff engineer at Uber. He had to export his entire Twitter profile, navigate through a file structure that wasn't clearly marked, find the recording out of the multiple Spaces that he had hosted—and I don't think you get these for ones that you've participated in, only ones that you've hosted—download the file, but the file was not a normal WAV file or anything; he had to download an open-source converter to play the file. And in total, it took him about an hour to just get that file for the purposes of having that recording. Now, where my mind goes to is what about some woman who runs a nonprofit in the middle of, you know, Sacramento, and she does a community Twitter Spaces about her flower shop and she wants a recording of that.What's she going to do, hire some third-party? And she wouldn't even know where to go; before I was in tech, I certainly would have just given up and been like, “Well, this is a nightmare. What do I do with this GitHub repo of information?” But these are the kinds of problems that you need to think about. And I think a lot of us and folks who listen to this show probably build APIs or developer tools, but a lot of us do work on products that muggles, non-technical people, work on.And I see these issues happen constantly. I come from this space of being an admin, being someone who wasn't quote-unquote, “A techie,” and a lot of products are just not being thought through from the perspective—like, there would be so much value gained if just one person came in and tested your product who wasn't you. So yeah, there's all of these things that I think we have a very privileged view of, as technical folks, that we don't realize are huge. Not even just barrier to entry; you should just be able to download—and maybe this is a feature that's coming down the pipeline soon, who knows, but the fact that in order for someone to get a recording of their Twitter Spaces is like a multi-hour process for a very, very senior engineer, that's the problem. I'm not really sure how we solve this.I think we just call it out when we see it and try to help different companies make change, which of course, myself and my boyfriend did. We reached out to people at Twitter, and we're like, “This is really difficult and it shouldn't be.” But I have that privilege. I know people at these companies; most people do not.Corey: And in some cases, even when you do, it doesn't move the needle as much as you might wish that it would.Chloe: If it did, I wouldn't be getting DMs anymore from creeps right? [laugh].Corey: Right. Chloe, thank you so much for coming back and talk to me about your latest project. If people want to pay attention to it and see what you're up to. Where can they go? Where can they find you? Where can they learn more? And where can they pointedly not audition to be featured on one of the episodes of Master Creep Theatre?Chloe: [laugh]. So, that's the one caveat, right? I have to kind of close submissions of my own DMs now because now people are just going to be trolling me and sending me weird stuff. You can find me on Twitter—my name—at @chloecondon, C-H-L-O-E-C-O-N-D-O-N. I am on Instagram as @getforked, G-I-T-F-O-R-K-E-D. That's a Good Placepun if you're non-technical; it is an engineering pun if you are. And yeah, I've been doing a lot of fun series with Microsoft Reactor, lots of how to get a career in tech stuff for students, building a lot of really fun AI/ML stuff on there. So, come say hi on one of my many platforms. YouTube, too. That's probably where—Master Creep Theatre is going to be, on YouTube, so definitely follow me on YouTube. And yeah.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:37:57]. Chloe, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it, as always.Chloe: Thank you. I'll be back for episode three soon, I'm sure. [laugh].Corey: Let's not make it another couple of years until then. Chloe Condon, senior cloud advocate at Microsoft on the Next Generation Experiences Team, also chlo-host of the Master Creep Theatre podcast. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment saying simply, “Hey.”Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Under the Hood of Developer Marketing
MasterTips: Defining Success & Metrics in DevRel

Under the Hood of Developer Marketing

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 19, 2021 44:07


Theme of the week: Defining success & metrics  Today's Under the Hood of Developer Marketing podcast episode is called “Defining sucess and Metrics in DevRel". It's part of our MasterTips series, where we share with you tips and best practices from leading professionals. This time around, we brought together 4 industry leaders to discuss how they define success in a panel held on October 6, during the Future Developer Summit Episode 3. The panellists: - Lori Fraleigh, Principal Group Product Manager, Azure SDKs at Microsoft - Christie Fidura, Director, Global Developer Marketing at Salesforce - Jennifer Hooper, Sr. Director, Developer Marketing, Brand & Content at Armory - Amara Graham, Head of Developer Experience at Camunda Host: Moschoula Kramvousanou, Head of Client Relations at SlashData Some of the topics discussed are: What is success? How do you measure the success of your developer relations? What metrics do you use? What tips do you have for our listeners? And more! Listen to this episode to see what “successful in developer relations” means.

Community Pulse
Community Pulse - Episode 62 - DevRel Salary Survey Results

Community Pulse

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 15, 2021 39:05


Figuring out what the standard pay is for a DevRel professional can be difficult, especially when considering expectations, experience, and different niche industries within tech. What's the average, what makes sense for the role, what's fair - these are all questions that come to mind when considering compensation for what we do. Luckily, today's guests have gathered some information and crunched the numbers to help you make a more informed approach to what a fair salary is for your role.

Community Pulse
DevRel Salary Survey Results (Ep 62)

Community Pulse

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 15, 2021 39:04


Figuring out what the standard pay is for a DevRel professional can be difficult, especially when considering expectations, experience, and different niche industries within tech. What's the average, what makes sense for the role, what's fair - these are all questions that come to mind when considering compensation for what we do. Luckily, today's guests have gathered some information and crunched the numbers to help you make a more informed approach to what a fair salary is for your role. DevRel Collective 2021 Salary Survey Results (https://dev.to/bffjossy/2021-devrel-salary-survey-results-table-of-contents-43fe) Checkouts Wesley * How do we get sponsors to support our tech event? - DEV Community (https://dev.to/floord/how-do-we-get-sponsors-to-support-our-tech-event-4mej) Mary * DevRelResourc.es (https://devrelresourc.es/) is live! Wesley * Mitchell's New Role at HashiCorp (https://www.hashicorp.com/blog/mitchell-s-new-role-at-hashicorp) SJ * Mailchimp's Engineering Blog (https://mailchimp.com/developer/blog/empowering-developers-empower-underdog/) is now LIVE! Greg * Matrix.org (https://matrix.org/) - Decentralized modern chat * Mozilla's thoughts (http://exple.tive.org/blarg/category/irc/) on Matrix * GNOME's thoughts (https://blog.ergaster.org/) on Matrix Photo by NeONBRAND (https://unsplash.com/@neonbrand?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) on Unsplash (https://unsplash.com/@neonbrand?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText) Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/community-pulse/id1218368182?mt=2) and follow us on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/3I7g5WfMSgpWu38zZMjet?si=565TMb81SaWwrJYbAIeOxQ), or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we're on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village. Special Guests: Greg Sutcliffe and Jocelyn Matthews.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
Creating content in the JavaScript universe with Ebenezer Don

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2021 15:22


We talk to Ebenezer Don, Developer Advocate at JetBrains, about learning new frameworks and creating content. Listen now. Links https://twitter.com/ebenezerDN (https://twitter.com/ebenezerDN) https://github.com/ebenezerdon (https://github.com/ebenezerdon) https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebenezerdon (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebenezerdon) https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm (https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm) https://blog.logrocket.com/author/ebenezerdon (https://blog.logrocket.com/author/ebenezerdon) https://flutter.dev/docs/get-started/web (https://flutter.dev/docs/get-started/web) https://podrocket.logrocket.com/rich-harris (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/rich-harris) https://twitter.com/teamNewDev (https://twitter.com/teamNewDev) https://skillupafrica.com.ng (https://skillupafrica.com.ng/) https://www.youtube.com/EbenezerDon (https://www.youtube.com/EbenezerDon) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Ebenezer Don.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Tracy Lee is the CEO of This Dot Labs, a Google Developer Expert, a Microsoft MVP, and a member of the RxJS Core Team. She joins us to talk about hiring developers, building community, and some exciting things she has planned for the future. Links https://twitter.com/ladyleet (https://twitter.com/ladyleet) https://www.thisdot.co (https://www.thisdot.co) https://www.youtube.com/ThisDotMedia (https://www.youtube.com/ThisDotMedia) https://twitter.com/ThisDotMedia (https://twitter.com/ThisDotMedia) https://www.ladyleet.com (https://www.ladyleet.com) https://www.thisdot.co/jobs (https://www.thisdot.co/jobs) https://modernweb.podbean.com (https://modernweb.podbean.com) https://modernweb.podbean.com/e/s08e017-modern-web-podcast-blockchain-curious-it-s-easy-js-developers-should-start-learning (https://modernweb.podbean.com/e/s08e017-modern-web-podcast-blockchain-curious-it-s-easy-js-developers-should-start-learning) https://www.angularworldtour.com (https://www.angularworldtour.com) https://www.reactworldtour.com (https://www.reactworldtour.com) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guest: Tracy Lee.

Observy McObservface
Meta-Observability – Observing the Observers with Jordan Chung

Observy McObservface

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 6, 2021 31:27


Jonan Scheffler talks to Founder and CEO of Krunch Data, Jordan Chung, about Krunch being a tool for content creators to understand what their audiences are finding engaging. They discuss regional salaries and the belief in paying people for the work they perform, not paying them based on where they live, how there are more opportunities to work in Developer Relations now more than ever, that half of working in DevRel is convincing people that DevRel should even exist, and soon every company will soon *need* a Chief Developer Relations Officer (CDRO)! Jordan also gives solid advice for newbies in the field: follow your curiosity and be open-minded.Should you find a burning need to share your thoughts or rants about the show, please spray them at devrel@newrelic.com. While you're going to all the trouble of shipping us some bytes, please consider taking a moment to let us know what you'd like to hear on the show in the future. Despite the all-caps flaming you will receive in response, please know that we are sincerely interested in your feedback; we aim to appease. Follow us on the Twitters: @ObservyMcObserv.

CloudSkills.fm
128: Tim Davis on DevOps Advocacy, DevRel, & Building Your Personal Brand

CloudSkills.fm

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 30, 2021 27:58


In this episode Mike Pfeiffer catches up with Tim Davis to discuss DevOps Advocacy and how to build your personal brand while you study.Follow Tim on Twitter:https://twitter.com/vtimdCheck out Env0:https://www.youtube.com/c/envZer https://www.env0.com/Watch this episode on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izChYG4AQTM 

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
Fine dining with Wes and Scott

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 28, 2021 43:38


We talk to Wes Bos and Scott Tolinski about ad reads, food-themed content, and why we love Syntax.fm. Links https://syntax.fm (https://syntax.fm) https://twitter.com/wesbos (https://twitter.com/wesbos) https://twitter.com/stolinski (https://twitter.com/stolinski) https://wesbos.com/courses (https://wesbos.com/courses) https://leveluptutorials.com (https://leveluptutorials.com) https://www.youtube.com/LevelUpTuts (https://www.youtube.com/LevelUpTuts) https://www.youtube.com/wesbos (https://www.youtube.com/wesbos) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today. (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr) Special Guests: Scott Tolinski and Wes Bos.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket
GitHub, open source, and pizza with bdougie

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 17, 2021 39:10


We sit down with the Director of Developer Advocacy at GitHub, Brian Douglas, also known as bdougie, to talk about developer content, Open Sauced, creating a personal brand, and pizza. Links https://twitter.com/bdougieYO (https://twitter.com/bdougieYO) https://www.tiktok.com/@bdougieyo (https://www.tiktok.com/@bdougieyo) https://www.youtube.com/c/bdougie (https://www.youtube.com/c/bdougie) https://www.heavybit.com/library/podcasts/jamstack-radio (https://www.heavybit.com/library/podcasts/jamstack-radio) https://twitter.com/jamstackradio (https://twitter.com/jamstackradio) https://github.com/readme (https://github.com/readme) https://github.com/readme/podcast (https://github.com/readme/podcast) https://dev.to/bdougieyo/3-areas-to-focus-on-as-a-developer-in-2021-2da3 (https://dev.to/bdougieyo/3-areas-to-focus-on-as-a-developer-in-2021-2da3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvZEQCWZHO8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvZEQCWZHO8) https://www.twitch.tv/bdougieyo (https://www.twitch.tv/bdougieyo) https://github.com/open-sauced (https://github.com/open-sauced) https://opensauced.pizza (https://opensauced.pizza) https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com (https://hacktoberfest.digitalocean.com) https://discord.com/invite/U2peSNf23P (https://discord.com/invite/U2peSNf23P) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us (https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us) @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr). Special Guest: bdougie.

Screaming in the Cloud
The Sly Skill of the Subtle Tweet with Laurie Barth

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 16, 2021 40:14


About LaurieLaurie is a Senior Software Engineer at Netflix. You can also find her creating content and educating the technology industry as an egghead instructor, member of the TC39 Educators committee, and technical blogger.Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurieontech Netflix: https://www.netflix.com Egghead: https://egghead.io The Art of the Subtle Subtweet: https://laurieontech.com/book-launch/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that?Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at VMware. Let's be honest—the past year has been far from easy. Due to, well, everything. It caused us to rush cloud migrations and digital transformation, which of course means long hours refactoring your apps, surprises on your cloud bill, misconfigurations and headache for everyone trying manage disparate and fractured cloud environments. VMware has an answer for this. With VMware multi-cloud solutions, organizations have the choice, speed, and control to migrate and optimizeapplications seamlessly without recoding, take the fastest path to modern infrastructure, and operate consistently across the data center, the edge, and any cloud. I urge to take a look at vmware.com/go/multicloud. You know my opinions on multi cloud by now, but there's a lot of stuff in here that works on any cloud. But don't take it from me thats: VMware.com/go/multicloud and my thanks to them again for sponsoring my ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Laurie Barth, but no one really knows that's her last name. In fact, @laurieontech is how most people think of her. She's a senior software engineer at a company called Netflix, which primarily streams movies and gives conference talks—in the before times—about how you're doing it wrong.She also creates a lot of content and educates the technology industry as an instructor at Egghead. She's a member of the TC39 Educator's Committee, and of course, is a technical blogger. Laurie, thank you for suffering the slings and arrows I'm no doubt going to be hurtling your way.Laurie: This is the most fun I've had all week. [laugh].Corey: Well, it's a pandemic on, so presumably that isn't that high of a bar for the pony to stumble over.Laurie: Yeah, unfortunately not. I think that's maybe the problem.Corey: So, you're someone that I have been aware of for an awfully long time. You're always sort of omnipresent in conversations. You are someone who has a lot of great opinions that present well; you talk about an awful lot of things that are germane to my interests, educating the next generation of engineers, for example. And of course, you recently started at Netflix, at which point, well, if you're not familiar with what Netflix is doing in the cloud, have you ever even talked to an AWS employee for more than 35 seconds because they'll go reference Netflix for a variety of wonderful reasons, both based on technical excellence, as well as because AWS is so bad at telling the story of what you can build out of their popsicle stick service collection that they just punt to companies like Netflix to demonstrate what you could do. So, you're sort of this omnipresent force on Twitter, but we've never really had a conversation before, so it was long past time to rectify this.Laurie: I mean, you sent me two cents. So… I think that was pretty—[laugh].Corey: That's what the Tip Jar is for. You just wind up hurling very small amounts of money at people along with insulting comments, and it's a new form of social media. That is the micro-transaction way.Laurie: I quite enjoyed that. So, for context, I was one of the first people to be part of the A/B testing for Tip Jar on Twitter and Corey was the first person to send me money with, of course, a very on-brand Corey message, which there's a screenshot of on Twitter somewhere. And a couple of people followed, but it was great fun. And I think that's the first time we had ever directly interacted in a message or something, other than obviously, in threads and that sort of thing.Corey: Yeah, that's an interesting point to lead into here because I'm also in the A/B test for Tip Jar and I've largely turned it off, except for when I'm doing something very small and very focused, usually aimed at some sort of charitable benefit or whatnot, and even then, it's not the right way to do it. And it's weird, there was a time I absolutely would have turned it on, but it doesn't seem right for me to do it now and that's partially due to the fact that—first, I don't need tips from the audience in order to sustain myself. I'm not that kind of creator. I have a company that solves very expensive problems for large companies and that works out really well for, you know, keeping the lights on here.I'm not trying to disparage creators in any way, folks who are in a position of needing that to cover their lifestyle a variety of different ways. And even if they're well beyond that, I don't begrudge that to them at all. I mean, from a very selfish capitalist perspective, I don't want you to feel that you've paid your debt to me for entertaining you by sending me $5. I want you to repay that debt by signing a five-figure consulting agreement.Laurie: Yeah, those aren't really the same thing, are they?Corey: No, no. Turns out signing authority caps out at different places for different folks.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: Who knew? But it was a fun experiment. I'm glad that they're doing it. I'm glad to see Twitter coming out of its stasis for a long time and trying new things, even if we don't like some of them.Laurie: Well, they have this whole Super Follows thing now, and I got waitlisted for it the other day because they said they accepted too many people, whatever that means. I think—Corey: Same here.Laurie: Yeah, I think a bunch of us got that. And I'm interested, my sense is it's sort of like a Patreon hosted in Twitter sort of thing. And I've never had a Patreon; I have a mailing list that I made based on an April Fool's joke this past year where I made an entire signup workflow for the pre-order of my new book, The Art of the Subtle Subtweet. I was very pleased with this joke.This was, like, very elaborate: I had a whole website, I had a signup flow, and I now have a mailing list which I've done nothing with. So, I have all of these things, but that's not really been my—there's too many things to do as a content creator, and so I've sort of not explored most of those other avenues. And so, Super Follows, I was like, “This could be interesting. I could try doing it,” but, you know, alas, they don't want me to. So, [laugh] I don't know that it matters.Corey: It's an interesting problem, too, because at the start of the pandemic, I had a third of the Twitter followers that I do as of the time of this recording, which is something like 63,000. When I started what I do, five years ago, and I had just left a company which was highly regulated, so, “Don't tweet,” was basically their social media policy, it was a, okay, I had something like 2000 followers at the time. I was—it had taken me seven years to get there, let's be very clear here. And since then, my following has exploded, and yours has as well. You have, I think the last time we checked, was it something like 30,000 and change?Laurie: Yeah, something like that.Corey: And it changes the way that people interact with you. This is one of those things that there aren't that many people that we can have this kind of honest conversation with because let's be very clear here, for folks who have not established an audience like that it sounds absolutely like it's either a humblebrag—which I'm not intending that to come across that way—or it's one of those, “Wish I had those problems.” And in some ways, yeah, it's a weird problem to have, and it's also not a sympathetic problem to have, but something that has been very clear to me has been that the way that people perceive me and the way that they interact with me has shifted significantly as my Twitter notoriety has increased.Laurie: Yeah.Corey: I'm curious about how you have experienced that?Laurie: Yeah, so I'm half your size and especially in the front-end universe, there's plenty of people with between 100,000 to, you know, I think Dan Abramov is at, like, 400,000 at this point. Like—Corey: Oh yeah, my Twitter following would explode if I either knew JavaScript or was funny. Either one would just absolutely kick me into the stratosphere, but we work with what we've got.Laurie: I either don't know JavaScript or I'm not funny or maybe both because apparently not. But yeah, there's these huge, huge, huge, huge scales, and I'm sure by many people's judgment, pretty, pretty large. But comparing to other people in my ecosystem, maybe not so much. And I didn't understand it until I was living it. I actually had the opportunity to meet Emily Freeman at a conference in DC, probably… three years ago now, when I had less than a thousand followers. And I thought getting my first hundred was a big deal; I thought getting my first 500—and it is. Don't get me wrong. Those things are very cool milestones. And I [crosstalk 00:07:18]—Corey: I still celebrate the milestones, but I do it less publicly now.Laurie: Yeah, exactly. And I had a whole conversation with her and she gave me some really, really helpful advice: sort of, don't look at your follower count as it goes back and forth, five people, six people you'll think people are unfollowing you; they're probably not. It doesn't matter. And recognize that the larger you get, the more careful you have to be, and try to keep me sane before I was ever there. And it's all sort of come true.There's two things that have stuck out to me, I think, during the pandemic, especially. One is I can write the most nonsensical, silly tweet and people will like it because they think it says something insightful whether it does or it doesn't. They're projecting onto the tweet something funnier, or more relevant than the reason I wrote it in the first place. Which, okay, that's cool. I'm not as smart as you're giving me credit for, but sure.The other thing which is the downside to that is, everyone assumes that if they're having a conversation with me, they're having a conversation with me. So one-on-one, back and forth. That's not untrue, but I'm having a similar conversation in parallel with—if it's a popular tweet—a hundred other people at the same time. And what that means is, if you're being a little bit of a jerk, and a little bit troll-y, you're not being a little bit troll-y, you're being a little bit troll-y times the a hundred other little bit troll-y people. And so my reaction to you is not going to be necessarily equivalent to what you say, and that can get me in trouble. But there's no mental, emotional spectrum that was designed to work with the scale of social media.Corey: Oh, absolutely not. In fact, let's do an experiment now, while we're having this conversation. I am making a tweet as we speak. “Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.” It's not particularly insightful.It's not particularly deep, and before the end of this episode, we will check and see what that does in terms of engagement just because you can say anything, and there's some folks who will wind up automatically engaging. And again, that's fine; everyone engages with Twitter in a bunch of different ways. For me, what's been very odd is I have talked to a couple of very large companies who I talk about on Twitter from time to time, and it turns out that they are reluctant to engage with me directly on Twitter or promote anything that I do or do retweets of me, not because of me, but because of an element of the audience, in some cases, of what people will chime in and say because it doesn't align with corporate brands and a bunch of different perspectives. Which, again, I have some sympathy for this; it's hard to deal with folks who are now suddenly given a soapbox and a platform that rewards clever insults better than it does meaningful heartfelt content, and that is something that I think everyone is still struggling with. Let's also be very clear here. I'm a white dude in tech; my failure mode is a board seat and a book deal.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: When I post something about Git, for example—which I did a few days ago—and someone responds explaining the joke back to me, my response to them was, “Thank you for explaining Git to me.” And that was all I said, and it's led to a mini-pile-on of this person because it's like—Laurie: Oh, yeah.Corey: “Don't you know who Corey is?” Yet I have seen the same dynamic happen with women tweeting about these things and it's not just one response that explains Git; it's all of them. And when people say—like, Abby Fuller, for example—Laurie: Yep.Corey: —will tweet about password manager challenges and how annoying some of them are, and it leads to a cavalcade of people suggesting password managers to her. That is not why she's tweeting it, and she explicitly says, “I do not want you to recommend password managers to me.” And people continue to do it. And I don't for the life of me understand what goes on in some people's heads.Laurie: Yeah. I mean, I've watched that happen countless times. I think the frustration—there's a point at which no matter how big of a following you have, you just want to be yourself. I think most people who get to that amount of interaction have been theirself most of the way, along the way. Or they're just being totally fake for the sense of growth hacking, in which case, okay, you do you.But most people, I think, are being themselves because it's exhausting to spend that much time on a platform and pretend to be someone else or be fake the whole time. So, I'm pretty much myself. And that means that sometimes when someone's being a total jerk, I really want to treat them and be like, “Yeah, you suck.” But the problem is when I say that, I'm siccing 30,000 other people on them to defend me. And I can't do that.So instead, I've become sort of famous for subtweeting. And I will wait a couple of days to do it, or I will totally change the framing of the situation so I can get out my same sort of frustration, and annoyance, and just needing to blow off steam, or venting, or whatever it is and not point at the person. Because if I point at the person, I discovered very, very quickly that there's a whole crowd of people willing to take them down. If they're being blatantly terrible, I will do it. There is a line here.Someone recommending that I use a different tool because I decided to bitch about TypeScript, for example, or telling me I don't understand TypeScript, okay, fine. Someone's saying, “You only have followers because you're a pretty girl.” Yeah, you're an asshole. No, I'm not protecting you. Also, by the way, I tweeted two minutes ago, do all tweets deserve a ‘like,' question mark, and we'll see how much that—Corey: Yeah.Laurie: —interaction gets. [laugh].Corey: I'm looking forward to seeing how that plays out. It's a responsibility, which sounds odd, but if I complain about a company, what I'm fundamentally doing is I have the potential to be calling out an airstrike on top of them. And not every customer service failure deserves that. I deleted all of my tweets prior to 2015 a while back. And the reason most people delete tweets, or the reason we hear about most people deleting tweets, there was nothing especially problematic in my tweets other than jokes that were mean in different ways and punching down in ways that I didn't realize were at the time.It was not full of slurs; it was just things that weren't particularly great. But that wasn't the real reason I did it. The honest reason was is that I looked at my early tweets and they were cringy beyond belief. I was shilling for the company I worked for in many respects, and there were swaths which I didn't engage with Twitter, and the only time I really did is I was out there complaining about various customer service failures, so it's just this neverending stream of complaints about different companies that had wronged me in trivial ways.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: And, I don't know at some point if somebody is going to build something where it's easy to explore early tweets of a particular account. I don't want them to do that and then figure out that this is how you get started being me. It's like, I succeeded in spite of that nonsense, not because of it. And it's not something good that I want to put out into the world.Laurie: Yeah. So, I have, I think, only once added a company when I was having a customer service issue on a weekend, and we were in really dire straits. And I was just like, “Okay, it's a weekend. I'm going to at.” And I've never gotten a response so fast.And my husband looked at me and he was like, “Wait, what?” And I'd done this with an ol—I have this really ancient Twitter account that I got rid of because I was mostly just screaming about politics [laugh] and I didn't want—I think I got @laurieontech in like, 2016, 2017—and I'd done that before. I'd been like, “Hey, you know”—I'm making something up—“At Spirit Airlines”—they seem like an easy one to—I've never flown Spirit, so—but I mean, I never got a response. And so there—realizing that you have power from a brand perspective is really weird.But I almost want to go back to your point when you were talking about when you worked for a company and you had your account and, you know, they don't want you to tweet, basically. Or companies are not going to tweet at you now, in your current state. I think it's really hard to be a company on the internet in tech because you're either going to make a joke that lands well, or everyone's going to think that you're shilling for yourself. There's no in-between and so—this is a hot take and I might get in trouble for that—companies have realized that the best way to get around that is to hire people who have their own personal names and get your company name associated with them. And all of a sudden, it looks less disingenuous.Corey: And even that's a problem because I've talked to companies who are hiring folks with large followings for DevRel style jobs, and—I've interviewed for a few of those, once upon a time, about midway through when I was debating do I shut this consulting thing down and get a real job again because that's always how I sort of assumed it would be for the first couple years. And then, “No, I'm going to get serious about it.” And I took on a business partner and got very serious, and here we are. But talking to folks, my question was, in the interview process, I would talk to my prospective manager and ask questions of the form, “So, what is your plan for when we eventually part ways? How are you structuring that?”And they looked at me like that was a bizarre question. It's, understand that, done right, my personal brand will, in some areas and some corners, eclipse that of the company, so as soon as I leave for whatever reason, the question is going to be, “Were you mistreated? Did someone wrong you there? We'll drag them just preemptively on the off chance.” And you need to have a plan in place to mitigate some of that and have a structured exit for what that is going to look like. And they looked at me like I was coming from a different planet. But I still think I'm right.Laurie: You are right. And, oh goodness, I've seen this in a lot of different places. I mean, I have left companies in the past and I have had to decide how I was going to position that publicly. And how much I was going to say or not say, how complimentary I was going to be or not because the thing is, when you leave a place, you're not just leaving the company, you're also leaving your colleagues. And what does that mean for their experience?You're gone. You don't want to be saying, “Hey, this place is horrible, while your really close friends you were working with on Friday are still there.” At the same time, companies don't think about this from the DevRel perspective and, I want to be very clear, I have friends who work in DevRel who are themselves brands. They are all fantastic people; they work incredibly hard; this is not a knock on them in any way—Corey: It looks easy from the outside. I want to be very clear on that.Laurie: [laugh]. It's not easy. All this stuff is great, but part of the reason I decided to go to a place like Netflix is because I knew my brand had no bearing on them and so I could be myself and just do my own thing and they weren't going to try and leverage me, or there was no hit to them based on who I was. Granted, did I go after someone the other day, sort of, in deep in a thread for being a jerk and did they try and at Netflix engineering and say, “Is this the kind of person you want representing your brand?” And at egghead.io, “Is this the kind of person wanting your brand?” Yeah, they did.So, that part's still a problem, but that's a problem for me rather than being a problem for my company, if I decide that, you know, I don't always want to—like, no one cares if I talk about the new Marvel show. No one cares. I like Marvel; I'm allowed to like Marvel. I also love the stuff on Netflix, right, but when you're at a company that isn't like that, honestly, when I was at Gatsby, I couldn't be tweeting about Next or Nuxt, or even Vue for that matter, because it just doesn't look right. Because my brand had more of an impact in that smaller pond than it does now.Corey: People have said, “Oh, well, what if AWS acquires you so you can work on their behalf?” Or, “What if Google acquires you?” Or something like that, and it's—what people don't get is that my persona—again, to be clear, I am genuine on Twitter. I emphasize aspects of my personality, but I don't get up there and say things I don't necessarily believe. We'll get back to that in a minute.But what I do as a small company, making fun of trillion-dollar publicly traded entities is funny and it works, but if suddenly I work at a different publicly-traded company, it just looks like I work for my employer, bagging on a competitor. And even if I'm speaking in ‘an opinions my own' sense, which is apparently Amazon's corporate motto, based on how often I see it in their employee's Twitter bios—Laurie: Oh, yeah. [laugh].Corey: —is going to be perceived as me smacking at a competitor regardless. Further, I will not be the person that craps on my own employer on Twitter because that sends terrible signal in many respects. I won't even crap on previous employers who frankly kind of deserve it because when you do that, it does not look good to people who are not familiar with the situation, and no one's as familiar with it as you are. It just looks like sour grapes, regardless of how legitimate your grievance was. To be very clear, I'm not saying don't call out abuse when you encounter it—Laurie: Yeah.Corey: —that's fine. I'm not going down that path—Laurie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Corey: —let's clear here. But, “Yeah, they have a terrible management culture, and they don't promote internally, and I hate those people,” it just makes you look bad, and it doesn't help anything.Laurie: Yeah. I had always made a commitment to never talk about a former employer in any way that was easily identifiable. I've changed that policy a little bit. There's a story I shared a couple of times where my CEO didn't want to give me a pay raise because he thought it was my parents' and boyfriend at the time's job to take care of me financially. Like, that kind of stuff, I will say publicly.No one's going to know who it is; you'd have to go back and figure it out and, like, you don't have enough context so how would you know? But it's stuff like that, that I'm like, okay. I don't want to hide stories like that because that's not protecting anybody.Corey: No, I'm not talking about covering up for misbehavior. I'm talking run-of-the-mill just bad management, poor company culture, terrible technical decisions, et cetera. Yeah, if it's like, yeah, they sexually harassed every woman on the team, out. Yeah, tell that story. I—thank you, I should absolutely clarify my stance. Heaven forbid I get letters.Laurie: But yeah, it's the problem is that you can't—and everyone has a slightly different experience with this, but from what I've seen, it doesn't matter if you say their management is shitty and they didn't promote versus there was a ton of sexual harassment. If you're one person saying it—if it's the Blizzard situation where there's tons of receipts and it's made it into national media, then that's a little bit different. But if you're one person saying it about one company, people are going to think it's sour grapes. And unfortunately, it doesn't reflect on the company; it reflects on you. So, unless there's a sort of like, where there's smoke, there's fire situation where a bunch of people are doing it at once, you have to weigh stuff really carefully.Especially because your next employer doesn't want you out there talking about your previous employer because then their fear is what are you going to say about them when you leave? There's lots of nuance and it gets—if you are screaming into the void—we're screaming into the cloud here—Corey: Ahhhh. Yes.Laurie: Ahhhh. [laugh]. If you're screaming into the void, it doesn't matter if you're you. And I mean… [sigh] I hate saying, “If you're me,” right? That's such an obnoxious statement to make, but at 30,000, they probably care.Corey: There are inflection points. I started seeing—around 40,000 is when I started seeing a couple of brands reaching out to me to, “Hey, you want to promote some nonsense.” And I've never sold any social media promotion for anything. I sell sponsorships for newsletters, this podcast, I do webinars stuff, I do paid speaking engagements. My Twitter account is mine.It is not the company's and that is by design. It's me; that's what it comes down to. That does lead to challenges in some arenas because I talk to companies about their AWS bill and these companies do not have much of a sense of humor about spending tens of millions of dollars, in some cases a month, on a cloud provider. These are serious problems and they're a little worried, in some cases, the first time we have conversations that they're dealing with some kind of internet clown.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: And often with talking to folks to convince them to come on this podcast, it's, “Look, this is not me dragging you and making you look awful because if I do that, I'll never get another guest again.” And if I do it in the context of a consulting project it's, “That was a hilarious entertaining intro here. Get out and never come back.” It is not useful. People have generally taken a risk personally on bringing the Duckbill Group in.If we can't deliver and cannot present professionally, then they have some serious damage control to do, for a variety of excellent reasons. And we've never put someone in that position and we won't. I talked to brands who sponsor all of these things, and the ones that are the best sponsors intrinsically understand it, that [unintelligible 00:23:56] once I start getting after some serious maleficence style stuff—no one is going to not do business with you because I make fun of your company on Twitter—Laurie: Yeah.Corey: —but an awful lot of people are going to hear about you for the first time and advertising in the newsletter and having fun with that, or I talk about you in the podcast ads, it winds up being engaging in many cases depending how far I can stretch it. And it works. I did a tour at re:Invent last year—virtual re:Invent—where I led a Twitch tour for an hour around the virtual expo hall into a bunch of different sponsored virtual booths and made fun of them all, and I got thank you notes from the sponsors because that led to a bunch of leads because people cared about the—oh, people paying attention because Amazon did a crap job of advertising the Sponsor Expo. And it was something that people could grasp, and have fun with, and get attention for. It's top-of-funnel work and that's fine, but I just don't do it with the boring stodgy stuff. I like to have fun with it. Bring a personality or don't bother.Laurie: Yeah. And you can't take yourself too seriously. I'm not the stand-up comedian that you are. I like to fashion myself as a little bit funny but not that funny. I'm not a stand-up comedian and I don't have a consultancy to represent anymore.There was a time where I did; I was not the owner of it but I worked there. So, now it's sort of, I represent me, which is good in the way that you say it. Like, it's clearly you. It's not Duckbill Group; it's your account. But at the same time, it freaks me out when in real life people know that it's me.So, in my brain, Twitter is the internet and I have my actual real day-to-day life, and never the two shall cross. [laugh]. And my—one of my—I had this popular tweet where I talked about all the companies I'd been rejected from, and it turned into a bit of a retweet situation with everyone sharing all these companies that they'd been rejected from. And the screenshots made it onto LinkedIn and made it into my cousin's feed, and she sent me a text message with a screenshot. And she's like, “You're on my LinkedIn.”And I was like, “No, no, this is not okay. This is not”—I have my little circle of the world and it should not expand beyond that. I go to a conference, even a tech conference, and someone's like, “Oh, you're blue shirt, crossed arms.” I'm like, “No, this is not okay.” Like, [laugh] I only exist on the internet.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: My business partner was, a week or so ago, at a cafe and someone came by and saw his Last Week in AWS sticker on his laptop. It's like, “Oh, you read that, too? I love Corey's work.” Turns out the guy works at IBM Cloud. And yes, you should hear the air quotes around the word, ‘cloud' in there. But still.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: It's—I haven't been out in the world since I really started focusing on this, and now it's—like, I wear a mask so it's fine, but I'm starting to wonder, am I going to get stopped on the street when I go back into the universe out there? And it's weird because you can't really unring that bell?Laurie: No.Corey: It's a weird transition, and on some level, it's constraining in some ways. Like, at some point of celebrity—I don't know if I'm there yet or not—there's going to become a day where I can't just unload on a waiter for crappy service at a restaurant—not that that's how I—Laurie: I mean, you shouldn't do that anyway. [laugh].Corey: —operate anyway—without it potentially going viral, and, “Oh, he's a jerk when you actually get to know him.” And everyone has this idea of you and this impression of who you are, based upon the curated selection of what it is you put out into the world. I've tried to be as true to life as I can on this. In conversations, I generally don't drop nothing but one-liners, but I think I'm pretty true to life as far as how I present on the internet versus how I present in person.Laurie: More than I expected, to be honest.Corey: Yeah. That also does surprise people. Like, they think there's some sort of writing team behind me. And it's, if you look at the timing of some of my tweets where I will respond with a witty, snarky thing in less than a minute, it's, I wish I had a writing team with that kind of latency. I think that'd be terrific.Laurie: I always assumed it was you, but I figured there was like a persona that you turn on and turn off and I realize now that it's an always on sort of thing. [laugh].Corey: One thing I did experiment with for a little bit was having my team write tweets for my approval to promote episodes of this podcast, for example, because I am not the sort of person going to sit there and build the thing out correctly and schedule at the right time. And I have people who can do things like that, but it's the sort of thing that led to a situation of never getting much engagement and those tweets never did very well, so why even bother? We have a dedicated Twitter feed for that stuff and everyone's happier. Especially since I don't have to share access to this thing through anyone. Speaking of, let's see her tweets did.Laurie: Oh, yeah. Okay, hold on. How'd we do? All right. So, I have, “Do all tweets deserve a like?” Was posted 19 minutes ago. It has 12 comments, 1 retweet, and 22 likes.Corey: My, “Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.” Was posted at a similar timeframe has 10 likes and 3 replies. Someone said that, “Organic, eh? Probably better than nylon.” Someone said, “Is this an NDA subtweet?” And someone said—with a GIF of Leonardo DiCaprio, saying, “You had my curiosity. Now, you have my attention.” That's it. So yeah, not exactly a smash-it-out-of-the-park success.Laurie: Yeah, but I got to say, “Do all tweets deserve a like?” Is pretty mundane. For that amount of response.Corey: You included a question mark, which is an open invitation—Laurie: Oh, right.Corey: —to the internet randos to engage, so there is—Laurie: Oh, yeah.Corey: —a potential there.Laurie: I going to have to retweet this and say that I'm not grifting and it was done for this podcast [laugh] and they should all listen to it. [laugh].Corey: Oh, of course. By all means. I am thrilled in any point to wind up helping people learn more things about the environment.Laurie: [laugh].Corey: I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I have to honestly say that I wasn't quite sure what was coming, but of all the things you could have asked me to predict about this episode, not talking about how Netflix works in cloud was absolutely not one of them. So wow, are you sure you work at Netflix? That's one of those odd moment things.Laurie: Yeah, I got to say I'm pretty abstracted from the cloud these days, so that—maybe that means that I don't know enough to talk about it intelligently.Corey: I would argue that extends to lots of folks. To be clear, Netflix has a lot of really neat thing.Laurie: That never stopped anyone before? Bu-dum-shh.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's like, I like to get up there, sometimes I'll talk about how we do things at Netflix, periodically, on conference stages even though I've never worked there, but people don't correct me because why not? I'm a white man in tech. And I say something, of course, it's right. It's just—if you don't want them to get right, you just don't have enough context. That's the rule.Laurie: Corey, I'm going to need you to take the last minute or so of this episode, and please explain your feelings on how to optimize your use of JavaScript on the front-end, please.Corey: Oh, wonderful; you pay smart people who know what they're doing to look deep into the JavaScript side of it—Laurie: [laugh].Corey: —because honestly, every time I've tried to get into JavaScript, I go back at it and I feel even more foolish than when I started. Async stuff just completely blows my mind, especially by default. How in God's flat earth is that supposed to work? And—Laurie: You work in cloud. [laugh].Corey: It doesn't make sense to me, in a clear sense. At least with Python, which is the—I would say it's the language I know best, but it's not. Crappy Python is. And I can at least do things top to bottom and it works about like I would expect unless explicitly instructed otherwise. But the JavaScript world is just a big question mark and doesn't work the way that I would expect to. To be clear, the failure here is entirely mine.Laurie: ‘JavaScript is a big question mark and doesn't work the way I would expect it to' should be JavaScript's tagline.Corey: That's fair because I have this ridiculous belief from the Dark Ages—because I spent 20 years as a systems admin—that computer behavior should be deterministic and if there's one thing that we learned about the internet, it's not.Laurie: Yeah, no. There's that whole user thing, and then that whole browser thing, and then that whole device thing. It's a whole bunch of non-deterministic behaviors. Just stick to the cloud, and there's one consumer and one producer, and you're good.Corey: One thing I will say—in the moment of pure seriousness here—is that if I were looking at getting into tech today, the first language I would learn would be JavaScript. It is clearly the way of the future. It is a first-class citizen on every platform out there. It is the lingua franca of, effectively, everyone coming out of a boot camp. And it is going to be the way that computers are built.I say this not from a position of being an advocate for JavaScript. I don't know it; I can't stand it personally, but it is clear as day to me that is the direction the world is moving in, so if you're debating what language to pick up, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me not to recommend JavaScript as the first one.Laurie: And do you want me to be my serious self, and you're going to laugh at what I'm about to say?Corey: Hit me with it.Laurie: If you're looking to get into technology because of boot camps and some other things, we have an oversaturation of newbie front-end developers and they're all way more talented than I was at that point in my career, and yet there aren't nearly the front-door opportunities for being a—I hate the term junior, but newbie. And where there is the opportunity, it's cloud. And security.Corey: I will absolutely point out further that I understand this runs the risk of being ‘boomer gives career advice'—Laurie: Yeah, right? [laugh].Corey: —but let's be clear here. I think that if you are going to enter the front-end space—and this does speak to cloud and it speaks to security as well—distinguish slash differentiate yourself by having another discipline or area of intense interest that you can bring into it as well because when you have a company that's looking to hire from a sea of new boot camp grads that generally tend to look more or less identical from a resume perspective, the one that will stand out is the one that can bring in another discipline and especially if that niche winds up aligning with a company's business, or at least an intense interest in something that is directly germane to the company, that will distinguish you. And everyone has something like that; no one is one-dimensional. So, find the thing that is the in-between space, and focus on finding jobs in companies that do those things. And if you're a mid-career switcher, let me be very clear here.It is not a go back to entry-level roles-style story. I've never understood that philosophy. I do have steps from thing I'm doing now toward thing I want to go to. Well, is there a job I can find to do next that blends the two of them together in different ways, and then once I'm there, then make a further transition. And of course, find someone who's—in any career, in any path you're on, find someone who is five years ahead of you, and ask them for their advice.“What would you do in my shoes?” If the answer is, “Go to a boot camp,” okay. Talk to a few people who've done this and make sure it validates it. If it's, “Get a degree,” okay, but make sure you're not doing it because you think that's what you're supposed to do. You'll very rarely find me recommending six figures of debt in order to advance your career, but there are occasions.By and large, they'll find someone who's been there before who knows what's going on, you can have a conversation with and give them context appropriate to your situation and then see what's right. We turned this into last-minute career advice and I'm not even—I don't even [unintelligible 00:34:45] have a problem with that.Laurie: Well, I was about to say that it's 2020. 21 2020—wow, I—you knew what I meant—it's 2021, and I guess I need to start taking my half-steps towards becoming a Lego master before I retire. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yes, the Lego world is vast and deep, and they have gotten no worse since I was a child at separating parents from money to buy LEGO sets. My daughter's four and his way into them already. So, it's great. It's something that we can bond over.Laurie: If I ever have kids, we're going to need separate sets because they're not touching mine. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, I'm looking at stuff like, oh, well, I'd love to buy that awesome big Star Destroyer—wait, it's how much money? And it turns into this—yeah. It's wow, on some level, I never ever thought I would find a hobby that was more expensive than my mechanical keyboards hobby, but here we are.Laurie: Oh, yeah, I blame Cassidy Williams for getting me into that one, too. I have a shiny one beneath me. And that's my first.Corey: She is a treasure and a delight.Laurie: She's a treasure, a delight, and dangerous if you want to save money because she will draw you into the mechanical keyboards, and there's just, there's no resisting. I tried for a very long time. I failed, ultimately.Corey: One of these days, she and I are going to have a keyboard-off at some point, once it's no longer a deadly risk to do so. It'll be fun.Laurie: Do it.Corey: I'm looking forward to it. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Laurie: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.Corey: Of course. Laurie Barth, senior software engineer at Netflix, also instructor at Egghead, also a member of the TC39 Educator Committee, and prolific blogger. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a horrifying comment explaining anything we just talked about, back to us.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Hipsters Ponto Tech
Developer Experience, Relations e Advocate – Hipsters Ponto Tech #270

Hipsters Ponto Tech

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 14, 2021


Você já ouviu falar em Developer Experience e Developer Relations? Sabe qual a atuação e o papel dessas áreas dentro das empresas? No episódio de hoje do Hipsters Ponto Tech vamos falar sobre um assunto que é fundamental para toda empresa, seja qual for o segmento: a importância da proximidade com a comunidade de devs. Participantes: Paulo Silveira, o host que está sempre envolvido com a comunidadeAntônio Marin, customer engineer no GoogleGabs Ferreira, tech community manager na AluraRafaella Ballerini, instrutora FrontEnd na AluraDiogo Pires, student experience manager na Alura Links: Pesquisa "State of Developer Relations 2020 Report" citada pelo GabsFlukeLeia aqui o artigo "DevRel: o básico" da Pachi CodesLeia aqui o artigo "O que é DevRel e porque você e sua empresa deveriam se importar" do Gabs FerreiraNewsletter Imersão, Aprendizagem e Tecnologia Produção e conteúdo: Alura Cursos de Tecnologia - https://www.alura.com.br === Caelum Escola de Tecnologia - https://www.caelum.com.br/ Edição e sonorização: Radiofobia Podcast e Multimídia

JAMstack Radio
Ep. #86, Growing With DevRel with James Q Quick of Auth0

JAMstack Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 2, 2021 35:30


In episode 86 of JAMstack Radio, Brian is joined by James Q Quick of Auth0. They explore the boundaries developer advocates must establish as both personal and professional content creators, as well as insights on preparing for a career in DevRel. The post Ep. #86, Growing With DevRel with James Q Quick of Auth0 appeared first on Heavybit.

JAMstack Radio
Ep. #86, Growing With DevRel with James Q Quick of Auth0

JAMstack Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 2, 2021 35:30


In episode 86 of JAMstack Radio, Brian is joined by James Q Quick of Auth0. They explore the boundaries developer advocates must establish as both personal and professional content creators, as well as insights on preparing for a career in DevRel.

Heavybit Podcast Network: Master Feed
Ep. #86, Growing With DevRel with James Q Quick of Auth0

Heavybit Podcast Network: Master Feed

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 2, 2021 35:30


In episode 86 of JAMstack Radio, Brian is joined by James Q Quick of Auth0. They explore the boundaries developer advocates must establish as both personal and professional content creators, as well as insights on preparing for a career in DevRel.

PodRocket - A web development podcast from LogRocket

We talk to James Q. Quick, Developer Media Manager at Auth0, about building a personal brand, the future of DevRel, and TikTok. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to check out the video recording on our YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbKrQRf1RHs). Links https://twitter.com/jamesqquick (https://twitter.com/jamesqquick) https://www.twitch.tv/jamesqquick (https://www.twitch.tv/jamesqquick) https://twitter.com/samjulien (https://twitter.com/samjulien) https://learn.samjulien.com/guide-to-tiny-experiments (https://learn.samjulien.com/guide-to-tiny-experiments) https://www.youtube.com/c/JamesQQuick (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-T8W79DN6PBnzomelvqJYw) https://www.tiktok.com/@jamesqquick (https://www.tiktok.com/@jamesqquick) https://www.compressed.fm (https://www.compressed.fm/) https://learnbuildteach.com (https://discord.com/invite/vM2bagU) Contact us https://podrocket.logrocket.com/contact-us @PodRocketpod (https://twitter.com/PodRocketpod) What does LogRocket do? LogRocket combines frontend monitoring, product analytics, and session replay to help software teams deliver the ideal product experience. Try LogRocket for free today (https://logrocket.com/signup/?pdr). Special Guest: James Q. Quick.

Greater Than Code
247: Approaching Learning and Content Creation with Sy Brand

Greater Than Code

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 25, 2021 54:23


02:01 - Sy's Superpower: Making Complex Topics Digestible * Sy on YouTube: "Computer Science Explained with my Cats" (https://www.youtube.com/SyBrandPlusCats) 06:28 - Approaching Learning to Code: Do Something That Motivates You * Greater Than Code Episode 246: Digital Democracy and Indigenous Storytelling with Rudo Kemper (https://www.greaterthancode.com/digital-democracy-and-indigenous-storytelling) * Ruby For Good (https://rubyforgood.org/) * Terrastories (https://terrastories.io/) 11:25 - Computers Can Hurt Our Bodies! * Logitech M570 Max (https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-M570-Wireless-Trackball-Mouse/dp/B0043T7FXE) * Dvorak Keyboard (https://www.dvorak-keyboard.com/) 13:57 - Motivation (Cont'd) * Weekend Game Jams * The I Do, We Do, You Do Pattern (https://theowlteacher.com/examples-of-i-do-you-do-we-do/) 22:15 - Sy's Content (Cont'd) * Sy on YouTube: "Computer Science Explained with my Cats" (https://www.youtube.com/SyBrandPlusCats) * Content Creation and Choosing Topics 33:58 - Code As Art * code:art (https://code-art.xyz/) / @codeart_journal (https://twitter.com/codeart_journal) * trashheap (https://trashheap.party/) / @trashheapzine (https://twitter.com/trashheapzine) * Submission Guidelines (https://trashheap.party/submit/) * Casey's Viral TikTok! (https://www.tiktok.com/@heycaseywattsup/video/6988571925811367173?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1) 41:34 - #include <C++> (https://www.includecpp.org/) * Lessons learned creating an inclusive space in a decades old community (Sy's Talk) (https://developerrelations.com/community/lessons-learned-creating-an-inclusive-space-in-a-decades-old-community) * QueerJS (https://queerjs.com/) * Emscripten (https://emscripten.org/) * Graphiz it! (http://graphviz.it/#/gallery) Reflections: Mandy: Digging into Sy's videos. Casey: Working within content creation constraints. Sy: Make a video on register allocation. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: Software is broken, but it can be fixed. Test Double's superpower is improving how the world builds software by building both great software and great teams and you can help. Test Double is looking for empathetic senior software engineers and dev ops engineers. We work in JavaScript, Ruby, Elixir, and a lot more. Test Double trusts developers with autonomy and flexibility at a 100% remote employee-owned software consulting agency. Are you trying to grow? Looking for more challenges? Enjoy lots of variety in projects working with the best teams in tech as a developer consultant at Test Double. Find out more and check out remote openings at link.testdouble.com/join. That's link.testdouble.com/join. MANDY: Hello and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 247. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here with my friend, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're both here with our guest today, Sy Brand. SY: Hey, everyone! CASEY: Sy is Microsoft's C++ Developer Advocate. Their background is in compilers and debuggers for embedded accelerators. They're particularly interested in generic library design, making complex concepts understandable, and making our communities more welcoming and inclusive. They can usually be found on Twitter, playing with their three cats, writing, or watching experimental movies. Hi, Sy! Good to have you. SY: Hey, thanks for having me on. CASEY: The first question we like to ask, I think you're prepared for it, is what is your superpower and how did you acquire it? SY: Yeah, so very topically, I think one of my superpowers is forgetting what topics I want to talk about when recording podcasts and that, I acquired through having ADHD and forgetting to write things down. But I did write things down this time so maybe that won't be too much of a problem. But I think one of my other ones is making complex topics digestible, trying to take computer science topics and distill them down into things which are understandable without necessarily having a lot of the background knowledge, the resources you'd expect. I gained that mostly through my background in computer science and then my interest in public speaking and communication and performance poetry, trying to blend those together to make things easier to understand, lower the barrier for entry. CASEY: I love it. Making complex topics digestible. That's definitely a skill we need more of in the world. MANDY: Absolutely. So Casey told me you are a bit of a teacher and you do a lot of teaching on, is it YouTube? So making things easier to digest. Like I said, during the preshow, I've been trying to learn to code on and off for 12 years, as long as I've had this career, and I've started and stopped, gotten frustrated and stopped, and I've tried different things. I've had mentors and I feel like I've let my mentors down and I've tried this and that. I've tried the code academy and I don't know. So how do you do it? Can you tell us a little bit about how you do that? SY: Sure. So most of the topics that I am interested in teaching is, because I come from a background of compilers and debuggers and very low-level systems, those are the things that I want people to get excited about because I think people look at compilers, or C++, or low-level programming and think, “Oh, this is not very interesting,” or new, or it's too complex, or it requires too much of a degree, or whatever. But none of that is true. You can write a compiler without having to have a lot of the background knowledge you might expect and you can learn C++ without having to – it can be a lot easier than people make art. So I want to make these concepts seem interesting and understandable because they're deeply interesting to me and they've been working on them for a large part of my life and I still love it and find them fascinating. So I want to share that with people. CASEY: What's your motivation when you're working on these? Is it to understand things that are complex, or are you solving problems you have, or other people have, or maybe a blend, or other motivations? I'm wondering what gets you so pumped about it. SY: Yeah, so I think it's a few different things. I make videos on Twitter, or YouTube, things like that of explaining concepts that I'm already familiar with and it's pretty much stuff that I could write an entire video off the top of my head without having to do any research. So I've done videos on explaining what a compiler is and all the stages of compilation, or a video on higher cash performance works, or [in audible 05:48] cash configurancy, garbage collection. These are all things I could just sit down and write something on and don't have to do a lot of research. Then there's the more exploratory stuff. I've been live streaming the development of a Ranges library for C++, which is being able to compose operations, building up a pipeline of operations for your data and then declarative manner so that you don't have to deal with a lot of memory allocations and moving data, or a range yourself. You just say, “Here's all the steps that I want to occur,” and then someone who has written all of these pipeline operations deals with how that actually happens. I've been developing that library live and trying to teach myself hired to do all of these things as while also teaching other people at the same time. MANDY: So is it right to assume that maybe I've been going about learning to code in all the wrong ways and that I've just picked a language and tried to dive in, or did I miss some of the conceptual stuff? And if so, as I suspect, a lot of the conceptual stuff has gone over my head. So where do you suggest, if you were giving me advice, which yes, you are giving me advice. [laughter] Where would you suggest, as a brand-new beginner coder, what kind of software concepts I need to research and understand before actually diving into an actual programming language? SY: Honestly, I don't think that there's a single answer there and I don't think there's a lot of wrong answers there. From my perspective, the best way to learn how to code is doing something that motivates you and that gets you excited because coding is hard and when you hit those bumps and things are going wrong, if you don't have that motivation to keep going, then it's very easy to stop. I know I've done it in trying to learn certain concepts and things like that before, because I felt like, “Oh, I should learn this thing, but I wasn't really interested in it,” and then I find out it was hard and stopped. The best way that I learn is finding something where I'm like, “Hey, I want to build this thing,” or “I want to understand this because I want to solve this problem,” or “because I want to dove on that knowledge with something else.” It's always the motivation, but then I'm coming from if you're someone with ADHD, or something like me, then it's pretty much impossible to do anything without [chuckles] having a strong motivation behind it. So that kind of comes into my way of learning as well. MANDY: That's super interesting. Actually, the last episode we did was with Rudo Kemper and he did a project with Ruby for Good. I went to that and I actually got really excited, intrigued, and wanted to get involved and learn how to code because I was really interested and passionate about the project that he presented, which was Terrastories, which was handing down indigenous knowledge technologically so that stories aren't lost in just having oral traditions, that these stories are actually being recorded and are living somewhere on the internet. So that's really interesting. I went to that and then of course, pandemic happened. It didn't happen again last year, but I'm thinking about going back this year. I'm hoping maybe I can be on a team with somebody that could just shadow and sit there and maybe Casey would let me be that person because rumor has it, Casey is going to be there. Ruby for Good on the East Coast in the fall. CASEY: Yeah, I'll be there. I'd be happy to have you shadow me. Also, my role lately has been a higher level. Last time I was a product manager for the team not coding and this year I'm going to be helping the teams be happy and effective across the board because there's always a team, or two that need some alignment work so that they can be productive the whole weekend. MANDY: That's interesting. Okay. Well, I'm sure I'll find somebody who wouldn't mind me doing a kind of shadow. CASEY: For sure. MANDY: Yeah, cool. CASEY: That's the kind of environment it is. MANDY: Absolutely. CASEY: Yeah. SY: That definitely sounds like the right kind of thing like something where you hear about something, or you look at this project and you think, “Hey, I want to get involved. I want to contribute to this.” That's what can drive a positive learning experience, I think it's that motivation and that motivation could just be, “Hey, I want to get into the tech industry because it pays well and we need money to live because capitalism.” That's like totally legit as well. Whatever you find motivates you to work. MANDY: Yeah, that's why I'm here. I had to find a way for my daughter and I to live. SY: Yeah. MANDY: So I got into tech and podcasts and then I'm working for all these people who I always considered so much smarter than me. I was like, “I could never learn that. I'm not good enough.” But now since joining the podcast as a host and coming on here, I'm feeling more and more like I am smart enough, I could do the thing and so, I'm actually really getting into it more. But it's just that being on the computer for so many hours doing the work stuff makes it hard to also break into the wanting to do the learning outside of my work hours – [overtalk] SY: Right, yeah. MANDY: Because it's so much computering. SY: Yeah, or just split the good screen from bad screen. CASEY: I've been computering so much, I have a tendonitis in my right pinky now from using the arrow keys on the keyboard too much, I think and bad posture, which I've been working on for years. Computers can hurt our bodies. SY: Yeah, definitely. I use the Logitech M570 mouse, which I switched to a number of years ago and was one of the best changes I ever made for using the computer and also, switching to Dvorak for keyboard layout. CASEY: Okay. I use that, too. SY: Nice! CASEY: Dvorak. It's not better, but I learned it. [laughter] It might be more better for my health maybe, but I'm not faster. That's what people always ask. SY: I'm definitely – [overtalk] CASEY: Instead of ASDF, it's a AOEU under your fingers; the common letters right at your fingertips. You don't need the semicolon under your right pinky. [laughter] Why is that there? SY: Yeah. MANDY: Yeah. I was going to ask for us what you were even talking about there. So it's just basically reconfiguring your keyboard to not be QWERTY thing? SY: Yeah, exactly. MANDY: Okay. SY: That means you have to completely relearn how to type, which can take a while. Like when I completely stopped using QWERTY at all and just switched to Dvorak, I didn't even buy a Dvorak keyboard, I just printed out the keyboard layout and stuck it to my monitor and just learned. For the first while, it's excruciating because you're trying to type an email and you're typing 15 words per minute, or something. That's bad. I did definitely did get faster shifting to Dvorak. Before I think I used to type at like 70, 80; I type around a 100 words per minute so it changed my speed a bit. But to be fair, I don't think I typed properly on QWERTY. I switched 10 years ago, though so I can't even remember a whole lot. [chuckles] MANDY: That's interesting, though. That gives me something I want to play around with right there and it's not even really coding. [laughter] It's just I'll be just trying to teach myself to type in a different way. That's really interesting. Thank you. [chuckles] CASEY: Yeah. It was fun for when I learned it, too. I think I learned in middle school and I was I practiced on AIM, AOL Instant Messenger, and RuneScape. SY: Nice. CASEY: I didn't dare practice while I had essays due and I had to write those up. That was too stressful. [laughter] CASEY: Summer was better for me. SY: Yeah, I switched during a summer break at university. CASEY: Low stakes. I needed the low stakes for that to succeed. SY: [laughs] Yeah. CASEY: We were talking about what motivates you to learn programming and I wrote up a story about that for me actually recently. SY: Okay. CASEY: At the highest level, my first programming class, we modeled buoys and boats and it was so boring. I don't know why we were doing it. It didn't have a purpose. There was no end goal, no user, nobody was ever going to use the code. It was fine for learning concepts, I guess, but it wasn't motivated and I hated it and I stopped doing CS for years until I had the opportunity to work on an app that I actually used every day. I was like, “Yeah, I want to edit that.” I just want to add this little checkbox there. Finally, I'll learn programming for that and relearn programming to do useful things for people. Motivation is key. SY: Yeah. I think because I started doing programming when I was quite young, I knew it was definitely the classic video games, wanting to learn how to make video games and then by the time I actually got to university, then I was like, “Yeah, don't want go into the games industry.” So didn't end up doing that. But I still enjoy game jams and things like that. If you're not again. CASEY: That's another thing you might like, Mandy. It's a weekend game jam. MANDY: Hm. CASEY: I don't know how into gaming you are, but it's also fun, lower stakes. People are just partying. Not unlike Ruby for Good. They happen more often and I like how it feels at a game jam, a little better than a hackathon because you're building something fun and creative instead of using a company's API because they told you to. SY: [laughs] Yeah. MANDY: Yeah, I was honestly never exposed to video games as a child. They were a no-no in my household and that's one of the things that I always cursed my parents for is the fact that I am the worst gamer. [laughs] My daughter makes fun of me. I'll sit down and like try to – she's 12 and I'll try to do something. She'll be like, “Wow, this is hurting me to watch you, Mom,” [laughs] and I'm like – [overtalk] CASEY: Ouch. MANDY: No, she called me a try hard and I was like, “Yeah, I'm trying really hard to just go forward.” Like I'm trying really hard to just jump over this object, [chuckles] I was like, “If that makes me a try hard well, then yes, I'm trying very hard. Thank you.” SY: Yeah. My 6-year-old has now got to the point where he can beat me at Super Smash Brothers so I'm not feeling too good about that. [laughs] CASEY: Yeah. My 6-year-old nephew beat us all in Mario Kart a couple weeks. SY: Yeah. [laughs] I can still beat in the Mario Kart. That, I could do. [laughs] MANDY: Yeah. A lot of the games she does looks fun, though so it's something I would be interested in, it's just something that I haven't been exposed to. I'm really excited now that—I don't want to say the pandemic is nearing an end because it seems to be not happening, but I'm excited – [overtalk] CASEY: True. Things are opening up. MANDY: Right now. Until they start closing down again. CASEY: Yeah. MANDY: Because I'm so excited for things like Ruby for Good, driving down to D.C. and seeing some of my friends, and I would be interested in going to one of those game things, as long as people are just like, “Oh yeah, we can be patient with her because she's never done a game before.” [laughs] CASEY: Yeah. My last game jam had eight people on the team and zero had ever done game development before. We figured something out. SY: [chuckles] Yeah. MANDY: Oh, that's fun. SY: Like muddle along. CASEY: Yeah. Somebody did like level design. They did a title map. Someone did sprites. They were like, “I'm going to do a sprite tutorial now.” Sprite is moving like a walking character. We had learned all the terms for it. We didn't know the terms either, but it was a good environment to learn. MANDY: It seems it. It seems like if you have a happy, healthy environment. For me, it was just, I was becoming stressed out. I had a standing meeting once a week with a really, really awesome person and it felt like it was more of like, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I have to work this into my already busy workweek and if I don't, then I'm completely wasting their time,” and I started to feel guilty to the point it brought me down. I was just like, “I don't think this is good for either one of us right now” because I'm feeling too much pressure, especially with the once-a-week thing and it's like to get through this chapter and then get through this chapter, and then I'd have a question and I'm not good at writing things down and then I'd forget. It seems like that might be more of a strategy to learn for me. I think a lot of people, there's different strategies like you have your visual learners, or you have your audio learners and I think for me, it would be cool just like I said, shadowing somebody. Like, if I just like sat there and it wasn't weird for me just to watch it over somebody's shoulder while they're doing this thing, that would a more conducive environment to the way I learn. CASEY: Yeah. I like the pattern, You do, We do, I do. Have you heard of that one? MANDY: No. CASEY: Or I do, We do, You do depending on the perspective. So it's like shadowing first and then doing it together where you're both involved and then you can do it on your own. It's a three-step process to make it a little bit easier to learn things from other people. SY: Yeah, that makes sense. MANDY: Yeah, that sounds like how kids learn. It's how we teach our children like I do, now we're going to do it together, now you do it. Yeah, I definitely have used that with my kid. [chuckles] CASEY: And it's just completely reasonable to do that as adults. That's how human brains work. MANDY: Yeah. No, I don't feel – that's the thing I would have to not almost get over, but just be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm 2 years old. I'm learning like I'm a toddler and that's so embarrassing.” But I think that that is a great way to learn and a great way to approach learning in general. I just started a book on learning more about crystals and it's the beginner's guide and she said, “You read this book and then you can move on to reading this other 700-page book that I've authored, but you should probably read this concise guide first.” I think a lot of people feel the pressure to dive into the super smart, or what they perceive as being the super smart way of diving in like, picking up the Ruby book, or the books that everyone talks about when there's so many other great resources exist that break it into smaller, bite-sized, digestible chunks. I think there's no shame in learning like that and I think a lot of people think that they just need to dive right in and be like, “Oh, this is the hard book, I'm going to go for the hard book first.” Like no, start with the easiest, start small. SY: Yeah. I think as you say, it definitely depends on how you learn what kind of resources you find interesting and engaging. CASEY: I've heard a similar story from a lot of friends, Mandy, where they really want to learn something, maybe programming in general, or a language, and then they psych themselves out, or they don't have the bandwidth in the first place, but they don't realize it and they struggle through that and the guilt because they want to, but they don't have time, or energy, which you also need. It's really common. A lot of people that I know are really motivated to do a lot of stuff; they want to do everything. I know some people who are fine not doing everything and that's great because they're probably more grounded. [chuckles] [laughter] But a lot of people I know really want to learn at all and it's a tension; you don't have infinite time and energy. SY: Yeah. I definitely fall into wanting to learn absolutely everything and right now. MANDY: So what kind of things are you teaching right now, Sy? What kind of content are you putting out there? SY: Yeah. So like I said, a lot of it's to do with low-level programming, like how memory actually works on a computer and how it affects how we program things. Because for a lot of people, if you come from a higher-level programming background, you're used to memory being abstracted away from what you do. You deal with variables, you deal with objects, and the implementation of the programming language deals with how that actually maps onto the underlying hardware. But if you really need to get the most performance you possibly can out of your system and you're using a little bit lower-level language like C, or C++, or Rust, or Swift, or something, then you need to understand how your processor is actually handling the instructions and that is actually handling your memory accesses in order for your performance to actually be good. Some of it is not obvious as well and does not match with how you might think memory works because the processors which we're using today are based in so much history and legacy. A lot of the time, they're essentially trying to mimic behavior of older processors in order to give us a programming model, which we can understand and work with, but then that means that they have to work in certain ways in order to actually get performance for the high-performance modern systems we need. So having an understanding of how our caches work, how instruction pipelines work, and things like that can actually make a really big difference down with the low-level programming. MANDY: Okay. So I'm looking at your Twitter and then looking at your pinned tweet, it says, “I made a YouTube channel for my ‘Computer Science Explained with my Cats' videos.” How do you explain computer science with your cats? Because that's something I could probably get into. SY: Yeah. So I have three cats and – [overtalk] MANDY: I've got you beat by one. SY: Nice. What were your cats called? MANDY: I have four. I have Nicks after Stevie Nicks. I have Sphinx because he looks so regal and I have Chessy and I have Jolie. SY: Cool. Mine are Milkshake, Marshmallow, and Lexical Analysis cat. MANDY: [laughs] Cool. SY: [chuckles] Yeah. So the things explained with my cats, it's mostly I wanted to explain things with my cats and random things, which I find around my house. So I remember I have a Discord server, which I help to moderate called #include , which is a welcoming inclusive organization for the C++ community. We were talking about hash maps and how hash maps are actually implemented, and I realized that there's a lot of different design areas in hash maps, which can be difficult to understand. I wanted to try and explain it using boxes and teddies and my cats so I set up a bunch of boxes. These are all of the buckets, which your items could go into it and then there's some way to map a given teddy to a given box. Let's say, it could be how cute it is. So if it's super cute and it goes in the west most box, and if it's kind of cute, then it goes into the box after that and so on and so forth. That's kind of how hash maps work. They have a bunch of memory, which is allocated somewhere, a bunch of boxes, and they have some way of mapping given items to a given box, which is called a hash function. In this case, it was how cute they are and then you have some way of what happens if two teddies happened to be as cute as each other, how do you deal with that? There's a bunch of different ways that you could handle that and that's called hash collision. Like, what do you do with collisions? Do you stick them in the same box and have a way of dealing with that, or do you just put them in the next box up, or a few boxes up, or something like that? There's whole decades worth of research and designing, which go into these things, but the concepts map quite nicely onto boxes and teddies and how cute they are. [chuckles] MANDY: I love that. SY: They are also explaining how caching works with chocolate, like the intuition with memory access is you ask for some chunk of memory and you get that chunks. You ask for a single chunk of chocolate and you get that chunk of chocolate, but in reality, that's not what happens in most cases. In most cases, you're actually going to get back a whole row of chocolate because it's most likely that if you're going to get a bit of chocolate, you're probably going to be accessing the bits which are right next to it. Like, if you have an array and you're processing all of the elements in that array, then you're just going to be stepping along all of those elements. So it's much faster to bring all of those elements would be right into memory at once. That's what happens in modern processors. Without you having to ask for it, they just bring in that whole row of chocolate. So I tried to – [overtalk] CASEY: That's so polite. [laughs] When your friend asks for a single chip, or a single piece of chocolate, you know what they want more. SY: [laughs] Yeah. CASEY: How generous of you to give them the whole bag. [laughs] Whether they want it, or not though. SY: Yeah. MANDY: So are these videos relatively short, or are they more long-form videos? SY: Yeah, they are 2 minutes long. MANDY: Oh, cool. SY: I try and keep them within the video limit for Twitter videos, which is 2 minutes, 20 seconds. MANDY: Okay, cool. See, that's something I could probably commit to is watching one of those videos not even maybe once a day because sometimes that's a little bit, much pressure every day. So maybe I try to work out three to four times a week. So saying I'm going to do this three to four times a week and I'm going to not stress on I'm going to do this every Monday. Generally three to four times a week, I think that's something I could, could commit to. SY: Yeah. Trying to get them within 2 minutes, 20 seconds can be really tough sometimes. Like it's quite – [overtalk] MANDY: Do you do a lot of editing? SY: Yeah. I would sit down and I'll write the whole episode, or video, or whatever and just get in all of the content that I want, just put it onto a text document and then I'll start filming it in whatever order I want, and then I start editing and then quite often, I realized that I've got 2 minutes, 40 seconds worth of content, or something and I can't quite cut it down and I have to reshoot something and then reedit it. I try to get it all done within a single day because if I don't get it done in a single day, then it ends up taking even longer because I get distracted and things like that. I need to focus just getting this one thing done. MANDY: So you're doing these within hours? SY: Yeah. MANDY: From start to finish, how many hours would you say you invest in these videos? SY: Start to finish, about 5, 6 hours, something like that. Like I said, I don't really have to do a lot of research for them because they're things I know very well, so I can pretty much sit down and just write something and then most of the time is spent in editing and then captioning as well. MANDY: Very cool. CASEY: I've been doing a bit of video editing lately and it takes so long. SY: Yeah, it really does. CASEY: I'm not surprised it takes 5, or 6 hours. [laughter] MANDY: No, I'm not either. I do all the podcasts editing. For those of you listening, who do not know, I edit all these podcasts and it takes roughly even 5 to 6 hours for audio, because I also put other work into that, like doing the show notes and getting the transcripts. Now I have those outsourced because I don't have enough hours in the day, but there's a lot of different parts to editing, podcasting, screen casting, and stuff that I don't think a lot of people know that these 2-minute videos that you do really do take 5 to 6 hours and you're putting these out there for free? SY: Yeah. MANDY: Wow. That's amazing. I assume you have a full-time job on top of that. SY: Yeah. Because my position is a developer advocate, I can count that as is doing work so I don't have to do that in my own time. MANDY: Very cool. Yeah, that's cool. I love DevRel so working in DevRel, I do that, too. I'm a Renaissance woman, basically. Podcast editing, DevRel conference organizing, it's a lot. SY: Yeah. MANDY: So I give you mad props for putting stuff out there and just giving a shout out to people who might not be aware that content creation is not easy and it does take time. So thank you. Thank you for that. Because this seems like the kind of stuff I would be able to ingest. SY: Yeah, thanks. MANDY: And that's cool. CASEY: I'm especially impressed, Sy that you have these interests that are complex would expand and you can explain the well and you find the overlap with what people want to know about. [chuckle] I think maybe in part from the Discord, you hear people asking questions. Can you tell us a little bit about what that's like? How do you decide what's interesting? SY: Yeah. I ask people on Twitter what they would find it interesting, but I also, because right now I'm not really going to conferences, but previously I'd go to a lot of conferences and people would come up to me and if I give a talk on compilers, for example, come and say like, “Oh hey, I never knew how register allocation worked. It was super interesting to know.” So I don't think I've done a video on register allocation yet actually. I should do one of those. MANDY: Write that down. SY: [laughs] Yeah. That's the kind of thing. Just because I spent a lot of time in communities, conferences, Discords, on Twitter, you get a feel for the kind of topics which people find interesting and maybe want to know how they work under the covers and just haven't found a good topic. Even function calls like, how does a function call work in C at the hardware level? If you call a function, what's actually happening? I did a video on that because it feels like such a fundamental thing, calling a function, but there's a lot of magic which goes into it, or it can seem like a lot of magic. It's actually, I want to say very well-defined, sometimes less so, but [laughs] they are real so there is random reason. MANDY: Very cool. I want to talk about the other content creation that you do. So code art journal and trashheap zine, do you want to talk about those a minute? SY: Sure. So code art was an idea that I had. It's a journal of code as art. I'd hear a lot of people saying, “Oh, coding is an art form.” I'd be like, “Okay. Yes. Sometimes, maybe. When is it an art form? When is it not? What's the difference between these?” Like, I spent a lot of time thinking about art because I'm a poet and I spend most of my free time researching and watching movies. Code as art is something which really interested me so I made this journal, which is a collection of things which people send in of code which they think is art and sometimes, it's something you might immediately see and look at it and think, “Okay, right, this is code and it's fulfilling some functional purpose,” and maybe that functional purpose gives it some artistic qualities just by how it achieved something, or if it does something in a very performant manner, or a very interesting manner. Other times, you might look at it and say, “Okay, well, this is code, but it's more aesthetic than functional.” And sometimes it's things which you might look at and think, “Okay, is this even code?” Like there was someone sent in a program written in a language called Folders, which is a esoteric programming language entirely programmed using empty folders on your hard drive, which I absolutely love. I'm super into esoteric programming languages so I absolutely loved that one. [chuckles] But yeah, so the – [overtalk] CASEY: That sounds so cool. Where can people find it? Is it online also? SY: Yes, it's in print and there's also, you can get the issues online for free in PDF form. There is a third issue, which is pretty much fully put together on my machine, I just haven't done the finishing touches and it's been one of those things that's just sat, not doing anything for months and I need to get finished. [chuckles] And then trashheap zine is another thing that I co-edit, which is just utter trash, because as much as I love more explicitly artistic films and writing and things like that, I also have a deep love of utter, utter trash. So this is the trashiest stuff that we could possibly find, even the submission guidelines that I wrote for that is essentially a trash pond, but random submission guidelines. So if you have trash, please send our way. MANDY: Yeah. I was going to say, what you consider trash? What trashiest [laughs] enough to be in these zines? SY: I can read out, where's my submission guidelines? The URL for the zine is trashyheap.party, which I was very, very pleased with and the website looks awful. I spent a lot of time making it as awful as I possibly could. Things like any kind of – [overtalk] CASEY: I love the sparkles. SY: Yes! CASEY: When the mouse moves, it sparkles. SY: Isn't it the best, seriously? Yeah. CASEY: Every website should have that. SY: Yeah, totally. Like texts you sent your crush at 4:00 AM while drunk where you misspelled their name and they never spoke to you again, or draft tweets which you thought better of sending, purely Photoshop pictures of our website. [laughter] A medically inaccurate explanation of the digestive system of raccoon dogs. All good stuff. MANDY: That's amazing. CASEY: I know a lot of people who would be cracking up reading this together. [laughter] CASEY: That sounds great. There's so much treasure in this trash heap. MANDY: Yeah. Don't worry, folks, we'll put links in the show notes. CASEY: Oh, yeah. SY: Yeah. One of my favorite things with it was when we'd get all of the submissions, we would get together and just project them up on a wall and read them together and so much so bad, it's hilarious in the most wonderful way. CASEY: That sounds like a party itself. SY: It is, yes. CASEY: The be trashheap party. SY: Absolutely. CASEY: It's kind of taking me back to early pre-YouTube internet when we watch flash cartoons all the time and a lot of those were terrible, but we loved them. SY: Yes. I made some as well, they were so bad. [laughter] I remember getting a very non legal version of flash and making the worst stick flash renovations I possibly could. CASEY: Oh, speaking of content creation, I've been learning some animation and 3D modeling animation lately. I had my first ever viral TikTok; it had over 9,000 views. SY: Wow! Nice. CASEY: And so when I look at my phone, if it's not the notifications muted, it's annoying. I have to turn it off. [laughter] SY: Yeah – [overtalk] MANDY: Congratulations! [laughs] CASEY: Thank you. So the video is a USB thumb drive that won't insert, even though you flip it over. That's been done before, but what I added was misheard lyrics by the band Maroon 5. Sugar! USB! That's what I hear every time. Mandy, have you done any art? MANDY: Have I done any art? CASEY: Lately? MANDY: Oh. Yeah. Well, actually – [overtalk] CASEY: You've been doing some home stuff, I know. MANDY: Yeah. I've been doing plant stuff, gardening, but this weekend, I actually took my daughter to a workshop. It was called working with resin—epoxy. SY: Oh, cool. MANDY: And we got to make coasters. The teacher brought stickers, feathers, and crystals and it was like a 3-hour workshop and I think my daughter had extra resin. Her birthday is on Thursday this week and I noticed she was making kind of the same ones and I said, “What are you doing?” And she said, “I'm making gifts for my friends that come to my birthday party.” I just thought it was so sweet that I was like – [overtalk] SY: Oh, so sweet. MANDY: Usually birthday parties, you receive gifts, or whatever and she's like, “No, I would like to give them gifts for my birthday,” and I was like, “Oh, that's adorable.” So I've been trying to do more things with my hands and get off the screens more, which has been the major thing keeping me back from being on code. I've made a strict weekend policy where I do not touch my computer from Friday evening to Monday morning, unless it's an absolute dumpster fire, I need to do something, or if a takeout menu looks better on my computer than it does on my phone. [laughter] Then I'll pop it open, but I won't read the email, or do the Slack. And then this Saturday I'm taking a course in astrology. It's all-day workshop so I'm excited to kind of dive into that stuff a little bit more. CASEY: So cool. It's hard to believe we can do these in person again. I'm not over it. MANDY: I know. I'm so afraid to get excited over it and then have it be taken away again. CASEY: Yeah. Sy, tell us a little more about #includes . I've actually heard of it. It's a little bit famous online. It's an inclusive community, I know from the name. SY: Yes. CASEY: Tell us more about it. SY: So it actually started off on Twitter as a half joke; Guy Davidson tweeted being like, “Hey, so why isn't there a diversity and inclusion organization for C++ called #include?” Because #include is it's like a language concept in C and C++ and people were like, “Hahaha yeah, you're right,” and then Kate Gregory was like, “You're right. We should make one.” So we did [chuckles] and we started off with like six of us in a Slack channel and then ended up moving to Discord and starting our own server there and now we are a few thousand members. Back when we had in-person conferences, we would have a booth at pretty much every major C++ conference, we had scholarships, which we would send people on, we got conferences to improve by having live captioning and wheelchair accessible stages and gender-neutral bathrooms instituting and upholding code of conduct, things like that. We started off thinking, “Hey, if we could get some conferences to have a code of conduct or something that would be great,” and then it ended up being way, way, way bigger than any of us thought it would become, which is amazing to see. CASEY: That's so cool. What a success story. SY: Yeah. CASEY: How long has it been going on now? SY: I guess about 3, or 4 years. Yeah, probably closer to 4 years. My sense of time is not good the best of times, but something around 4 years. CASEY: I'm curious if another language community wanted to do something similar if they're inspired. Is there a writeup about what y'all have done? 
SY: I've given talks. CASEY: That we can point people to. We can put that in the show notes. SY: Yeah. I've given a couple of talks, as I said. CASEY: Talks, that would be good. SY: Other people have given talks as well. I gave a slightly longer form talk DevRelCon, London in 2019, I think, which was on the lessons which we learned through trying to build a welcoming and inclusive community. Community which has already been around for decades because C++ was first standardized in 1998 so it's been around for quite a long time and has a lot of history. CASEY: That sounds great. I can't wait to watch it. SY: Yeah. I know that there's other languages. You have JavaScript, QueerJS, which is a really cool community and I'm sure there are other languages which have similar things going as well. CASEY: I had never heard of QueerJS. I'm queer and JS. SY: Yeah. CASEY: I'm glad I had this moment just now. SY: It's cool. They have a Discord and I can't remember how active the Discord is, but they would have meetups across the world, they have one in London and in Berlin and bunch of other places, and talks and community. It seems really cool. CASEY: That's awesome. SY: I wanted to give a talk about C++ and JavaScript because you could link target JavaScript with C++ these days, which is kind of cool. CASEY: I've used Emscripten before. SY: Yeah. CASEY: I didn't use it directly, other people did. It turned Graphviz into a JavaScript. A program that runs in JavaScript instead of normally, it's just CSS. So I could draw circles pointing to other circles in the browser, which is what I always wanted to do. Graphviz.it, that “it” is my favorite Graphviz editor. It's online. SY: Cool. I like Graphviz a lot. Emscripten is really cool, though. Basically a way of compiling C++ plus to JavaScript and then having the interoperation with the browser and the ecosystem that you might want to be able to call JS functions from C++, or other way around, and do things which seem operating systems E, but have to be mapped inside the browser environment. CASEY: That's powerful. I'm also glad I've never had to use it directly. Other people made libraries doing it what I needed. Thank goodness. [chuckles] Abstraction! SY: Yeah. I've not used a whole lot, but I did find it fairly nice to work with when I did. I made a silly esoteric programming language called Enjamb, which is a language where the programs are cones and it runs on a stack-based abstract machine and the interpreter for it is written in C++. I wrote a command line driver for it and also, a version which runs in the browser and that compiles using Emscripten. It was really cool and I picked it all up with CMake, which is the main C++ build systems that you could just say, “Hey, I want to build the combine line version for my platform” like Windows, or Mac, or Linux, or whatever, or “Hey, I want to build it for the web,” and it would build the JavaScript version in HTML page and things like that. It's pretty cool. I recently made another esoteric programming language, which you program using MS Paint. You literally make shapes with MS Paint and you give the compiler an image file, and then it uses OCR and computer vision in order to parse your code and then generate C from that. [laughs] It's pretty ridiculous, but I had so much fun with it. CASEY: OCR is Optical Character Recognition? SY: Yes, exactly. CASEY: So I'm picturing if I wrote a program on a napkin and a computer could maybe OCR that into software. SY: Yeah. So it uses OCR for things like function names because it supports function calls and then uses shapes for most things. It has things like a plus sign, which means increment what it's currently being pointed to, or right, or left, or up, or down arrow is for moving things around. You would actually make an image file with those symbols and then I used OpenCV for working out what the shapes were. It was the first time I've ever done any kind of image recognition stuff. It was a lot easier than I expected it to be; I thought we'd have to write a lot of code in order to get things up and running and to do image detection. But most of the simple things like recognizing hey, this is a triangle, or this is a plus sign, or this is a square, and things like that were pretty, you don't need a lot of code in order to do them. That was mostly when you had to say like, “Okay, this is a triangle, but which direction is it pointing in?” It got a little bit more complicated; I had to do some maths and things like that and I'm terrible at maths. [chuckles] So that was a little bit more difficult, but it was a lot fun to get started with and I had a much lower barrier to entry than I expected. CASEY: Now I want to play with OCR and image recognition. I haven't done that for 10 years. It was not easy when I tried it last time with whatever tool that was. SY: [chuckles] Yeah, I did it – [overtalk] CASEY: For the future! SY: [laughs] Definitely. Yeah. I did it with Python and Python has fairly nice OpenCV bindings and there's a ton of resources out there for predicting most of the basic stuff that you would expect. So there's a lot of learning resources and decent library solutions out there now. CASEY: Cool. All right. We're getting near the end of time. At the end, we like to go through reflections, which is what's something interesting that stood out to you, something you'll take with you going forward from our conversations today. MANDY: I really am excited to dig into Sy's videos. They seem, like I said earlier in the show, something I could commit to a few times a week to watching these videos especially when they are concepts that seem so much fun, like cats, teddy bears, cuteness levels, and things like that. I think that would be a great start for me just to in the morning while I'm still drinking tea just before I even dive into my email, check out one of those videos. So I think I'll do that. SY: Thanks. CASEY: Sy, I liked hearing about your process side with your constraints like 2 minutes, 20 seconds on Twitter, that's such a helpful constraint to make sure it's really polished and dense. It takes you 5 to 6 hours and you make things that people ask about, that they're interested in. That whole process is fascinating to me as I try to make more viral TikToks. [laughter] Or whatever I'm making at the time. SY: Yeah. CASEY: I always wondered how you made such good stuff that got retweeted so often. Cool things of insight. SY: Yeah. Mostly just time. [laughs] I guess, it makes me remember that I definitely want to make a video on register allocation because I love register allocation. It's such a cool thing. For those who don't know, it's like if you have a compiler which takes your code and maps it onto the hardware, your hardware only has a certain number of resources so how do you work out how to use those resources in the best manner? It maps onto some quite nice computer science algorithms like graph coloring, which means it maps quite nicely visually, I could probably make a pretty cool graph coloring visualization with some random things I have strewn around my room. CASEY: I can't imagine this yet, but I will understand that clearly soon I bet. MANDY: That's awesome. Well, I just want to wrap up by saying thank you so much for joining us today, Sy. This has been a really awesome conversation. And to folks who have been listening, thank a content creator. It takes time. It takes energy. It's a lot of work that I don't think a lot of people, unless you've done it, really understand how long and in-depth of a process it is. So thank one of us content creators, especially when we're putting this content out for you for free. To do that for us Greater Than Code, we do a Patreon page and we will invite Sy to join us and we would like you to join us as well. If you are able to donate on a monthly basis, it's awesome. It's patreon.com/greaterthancode. All episodes have show notes and transcripts, and we do a lot of audio editing. So join us if you're able. If you are still a person who is greater than code and cannot afford a monthly commitment, you are still welcome to join us in our Slack community. Simply send a DM to one of the panelists and we will let you in for free. So with that, thank you so much, Casey. Thank you again, Sy. And we'll see you all next week. Special Guest: Sy Brand.

Real Talk JavaScript
Episode 147: Leading Technology Teams with Jem Young

Real Talk JavaScript

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 19, 2021 57:48


Recording date: July 22, 2021John Papa @John_PapaWard Bell @WardBellDan Wahlin @DanWahlinCraig Shoemaker @craigshoemakerJem Young @JemYoungBrought to you byAG GridNarwhal Visit nx.dev to get the preeminent open-source toolkit for monorepo development, today. Resources:Front End Happy Hour podcastFront End Masters training coursesjQueryBackend for the FrontendNode.jsNetFlix tech blogThe Witcher TV seriesWeb AssemblyReactNetFlix Engineering on TwitterNext.jsRegression TestingGraphQLNode.js LTS and release version strategiesRyan Burgess on TwitterWorking in Developer Relations with Kim MaidaWhich department does DevRel belong in? By Kim MaidaTimejumps01:13 An award for subtitles04:05 Guest introduction05:25 Understanding modern technology07:28 Sponsor: Narwhal08:13 Working on the backend for the frontend13:14 How do you evaluate when to do betas?15:22 What's a way to incorporate new technology?21:02 Do you have challenges with managers?22:52 Who's behind the Netflix Engineering team on Twitter?24:19 How do you feel about developer relations?31:33 How should someone prep for an interview for a job?42:42 Sponsor: Ag Grid43:42 Course on Front End Masters45:54 Final thoughtsPodcast editing on this episode done by Chris Enns of Lemon Productions.

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech
Wesley Faulkner: The Path to Developer Relations

We Belong Here: Lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 16, 2021 42:11


Wesley Faulkner is a first-generation American. He is a founding member of the government transparency group Open Austin and ran for Austin City Council in 2016. His professional experience also includes work as a social media and community manager for the software company Atlassian, and various roles for the computer processor company AMD, Dell, IBM, and Daily. Wesley serves as a board member for South by Southwest Interactive (SXSWi) and today is the Head of Community at SingleStore. Resources: Wesley on Twitter: @wesley83FreeCodeCampWesleyfaulkner.comAgainst Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion