Podcasts about marketing rebellion

Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized marketing futurist, bestselling author of Marketing Rebellion and The Content Code, and host of the top-ranked Marketing Companion podcast. He's also a keynote speaker and trusted strategy consultant to some of the world's leading brands. In this episode, Mark joins the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to discuss his latest book, Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World. He shares powerful insights on why human-centered marketing is the antidote to AI saturation and how bold, creative branding, emotional connection, and shared experiences are reshaping modern marketing strategy. If you're looking to stand out in the age of automation, this episode is your roadmap. Today we discussed: 00:00 Opening 00:09 Introducing Mark Schaefer 00:59 Where Do Humans Fit in an AI Dominated World? 04:09 A World Without Shared Experiences 07:00 How to Out-Human AI 09:44 Embracing Every Day Awe 13:08 How AI is Changing Consumer Behavior 17:25 Story of the Book Cover 19:17 Start with Wrong Rate, Review, & Follow If you liked this episode, please rate and review the show. Let us know what you loved most about the episode. Struggling with strategy? Unlock your free AI-powered prompts now and start building a winning strategy today!

Mark Schaefer is a digital marketing consultant, a globally recognized keynote speaker, a futurist, a university educator, a renowned expert in marketing and personal branding, and the bestselling author of many books, including "Belonging to the Brand," "Marketing Rebellion," "Known," and "Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World". His blog, {grow} is hailed as one of the top marketing blogs in the world and he is also the host of The Marketing Companion, one of the top 10 marketing podcasts on iTunes. He has also appeared on many national television shows and periodicals including the Wall Street Journal, Wired, The New York Times, CNN, National Public Radio (NPR), CNBC, the BBC, and CBS News, and he is a regular contributing columnist to The Harvard Business Review. Connect with Mark Schaeffer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwschaefer/ Buy the book, “Belonging to the Brand”: https://www.amazon.com/Belonging-Brand-Community-Marketing-Strategy-ebook/dp/B0BQCRN6JQ Blog: https://businessesgrow.com/ Podcast: The Marketing Companion Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/-IKcl_my7vQ What if you could build a community around your brand or business? What if I told you that you can cultivate an engaged, supportive community of fans around your business where people clamor to buy anything you offer and never leave because your community is such an important part of their lives and identities? My guest, Mark Schaefer is the author of Belonging to the Brand, Why Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy.  In an age of AI and automation where even many global brands are losing market share and relevance, Mark believes that community is the last refuge for preserving our humanity and ensuring brands, businesses, and non-profits stand out. As Mark explains in his book, and as we discussed in this episode, building a community goes way beyond simply amassing a following. Social media followers and casual readers or viewers are a weak relational link. According to Mark Schaefer, the real magic happens when you're able to bring people together so they connect to one another and find a sense of belonging within your brand community. Once you create a community, your organization becomes a home for your audience – a place where they find meaning. And, a sense of meaning is often what is missing from many people's lives today. For all of our technological advancements and social progress, many people feel lonely or socially isolated. As Mark says in his book, we humans are “wired for community,” which can be hard to find in a world that is so virtual and where remote work is common. The demand for community has, perhaps, never been greater than at any time in human history. If you can help fulfill your audience's need for belonging and community, then you will acquire a tribe of loyal supporters and repeat customers. According to Mark's thesis, which I believe is correct, building a community is how organizations can make the greatest impact and drive the biggest outcomes if they're willing to put in the time and work into making their community grow. Creating a community requires long-term thinking and an investment of time and energy, but it will pay off for those who commit to it, as Mark explains on the podcast and in his book.  In this conversation, Mark and I spoke about the importance of community from both a marketing and a sociological perspective. He also shared interesting case studies of people who found success by building communities around their brands. From a business and marketing standpoint, having your own community on an owned channel also strengthens your brand long-term, dramatically increases customer loyalty and retention, and lessens your reliance on the whims of social media algorithms and changing markets.  In this episode, we discussed his “Belonging to the Brand,” published in 2022, but you should also check out his new book that just came out, "Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World." Connect with Mark Schaefer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwschaefer/ Buy the book, Belonging to the Brand: https://www.amazon.com/Belonging-Brand-Community-Marketing-Strategy-ebook/dp/B0BQCRN6JQ  Learn more: https://businessesgrow.com/ Buy his new book, Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World: https://www.amazon.com/Audacious-How-Humans-Marketing-World/dp/B0DSHRN3PC#:~:text=Mark%20Schaefer's%20%22Audacious%22%20is%20a,AI%20by%20a%20million%20watts.  Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, educator, business consultant, and author. His blog {grow} is hailed as one of the top marketing blogs in the world. Mark has worked in global sales, PR, and marketing positions for more than 30 years and provides consulting services as Executive Director of Schaefer Marketing Solutions. Mark has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development, holds seven patents, and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. For three years, Mark studied under the late Peter Drucker (a world-renowned consultant and author known as the founder of modern management). He is one of the world's most popular business-related keynote speakers, taking the stage at some of the largest industry and corporate conferences including SXSW, Dell World, the American Bar Association Annual Conference, and many others. He has spoken in 35 different countries. Mark is also well-known for developing corporate marketing strategies and marketing workshops. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, GE Life Sciences, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of ten other books: Belonging to the Brand: Why Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy: This book was number one in both marketing and advertising categories and provides a spellbinding view of the future of marketing. Cumulative Advantage: How to Build Momentum for your Ideas, Business, and Life Against All Odds — This book explores the art and science of momentum Marketing Rebellion: The Most Human Company Wins — Some reviewers note this might be the most influential marketing book of the decade. KNOWN: How to Build and Unleash Your Personal Brand in the Digital Age — World's number one book on personal branding. The Content Code — Named one of the top five marketing books of the year by INC Magazine. Social Media Explained — Essential primer on social media marketing. Return on Influence — First book ever written on influencer marketing. Named to the elite list of top academic titles of the year by the American Library Association, which declared it an “essential” and “pathfinding” book. Born to Blog — All-time bestselling book on blogging! LESSONS — Collection of essential essays on embracing chaos. The Tao of Twitter – Best-selling book on Twitter in the world. Mark's books have been used as textbooks at more than 70 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide. He is the founder and co-host of The Marketing Companion, one of the top 10 marketing podcasts on iTunes. The show has been downloaded more than 1.5 million times. Mark is also a popular and entertaining commentator and has appeared on many national television shows and periodicals including the Wall Street Journal, Wired, The New York Times, CNN, National Public Radio, CNBC, the BBC, and CBS News. He is a regular contributing columnist to The Harvard Business Review. Learn more: https://businessesgrow.com/  

Mark Schaefer and Mathew Sweezey pluck out a few big trends that have them excited for the new year. From the executive implications of AI to a focus on premium experiences, this is a fascinating exploration of what's coming next.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

In this fun and thought-provoking show, Mark Schaefer and Jay Acunzo challenge each other with the best questions they could ask each other — and then dissect the beauty of the question. Amp up you content game by listening to this extraordinary debate!   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Jay Acunzo consults experts and entrepreneurs to differentiate their messages and content. He hosts the podcast How Stories Happen, where guests dissect signature stories piece by piece, and runs the Creator Kitchen, where experts learn to become stronger storytellers. Learn more at jayacunzo.com

Keith Jennings talks about how Mark Schaefer's new book became a catalyst for his career reinvention. Mark and Keith discuss their history of personal reinvention and the three questions they use to judge whether they are stagnating on the job. This is Keith's final episode on the show and Mark announces two new co-hosts for the podcast's 14th season.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact. He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

Mark Schaefer brings LinkedIn expert Richard Bliss onto the show. Richard covers basic LinkedIn strategy, the role of AI and bots, collaborative content, emerging role of video and more. This episode contains bonus Q&A content about LinkedIn newsletters, streaming video, and LinkedIn for newbies.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.

Every keynote speaker and content creator knows the value of that signature story – a tale that drives home a point with passion, insight, and a little drama. But how do you come up with these stories, and how do you craft them to serve you well in your marketing?   Mark Schaefer and Jay Acunzo explore this topic in this new episode. You'll learn how each identifies, nurtures, and delivers their best stories. And you'll get to hear two of their favorite tales.    Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subscribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Jay Acunzo consults experts and entrepreneurs to differentiate their messages and content. He hosts the podcast How Stories Happen, where guests dissect signature stories piece by piece, and runs the Creator Kitchen, where experts learn to become stronger storytellers. Learn more at jayacunzo.com

Ed Sheeran launched a new hot sauce in cooperation with Heinz. It makes so much sense. Ed doesn't have to harvest the tomatoes and make anything! Why aren't more bands launching products with influencers?   While celebrity endorsements have been around for ages, giving stars a stake in an actual product has been rarer. Meanwhile, influencers are launching their own products – with or without the brands. Why don't brands get ahead of this? Mark Schaefer and Amanda Russell discuss this trend on the new episode of The Marketing Companion.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Amanda Russell is a marketing leader, entrepreneur, and scholar. By age 32, she built and sold two successful businesses: an online fitness subscription community for women and a digital marketing and production company. She served as Chief Marketing Officer at a NYC-based portfolio fund and developed the world's first accredited MBA & EMBA Influencer Marketing programs at Northwestern University. She also founded the Global Center for Influence at the University of Texas. Amanda has taught at renowned institutions such as Bocconi University, London Business School, Harvard, Wharton, HEC Paris, NYU, and the University of Stockholm. Her book, "The Influencer Code," explores influence, consumer behavior, and the future of marketing. Amanda advises major companies, including Lamborghini, Cedars-Sinai, Lionsgate, and Silk-FAW.

Mark Schaefer and Keith Jennings explore the role of social objects in marketing. They are everywhere; they drive word-of-mouth marketing, and this is one of the least-explored ideas in the arsenal. Learn how to use social objects for your own business and why this idea is indispensable in the AI Era.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact. He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/.   

Mark Schaefer and Sara Wilson dive into the red-hot world of brand communities. Who is doing it well and why? What are the challenges? What is the role of influencers and what's next? We'll explore that and more in this new episode.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.  

On this episode, Mark Schaefer and Mathew Sweezey talk about their search for personal peace within the corporate world and beyond. Both have been on a journey to live a life with less stress and more satisfaction, in sometimes divergent paths. They discuss financial freedom, impact of social media expectations, anxiety and depression, staying "centered," meditation, experimenting with psychedelics, and more.    Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

Jay Acunzo contends in this episode that you don't need to be brilliant to be an effective content creator. You need to up the ante on curiosity. Curiosity is one of the most important "soft skills" of marketing. But can it be learned? Improved? Spread to a team? You'll find out on this new episode.   Jay Acunzo is an author, speaker, and host of the podcast Unthinkable -- the show about marketers who trusted their intuition, not the best practices, and all the unconventional, refreshing things they did to build their brands and leave their legacies. Learn more and find a Starter Pack of episodes at https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast     Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.

It seems like imposter syndrome is referenced everywhere these days. It's such a common obstacle to success but there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Mark Schaefer and Amanda Russell explore this provocative topic from their own life experiences. Amanda has had extensive "brain training" as an elite athlete while Mark explored a family of origin narrative to discover personal roadblocks. It's a new take on a very old and ubiquitous problem.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do 'higher education.  Former Olympic-level athlete, Founder-to-sale Entrepreneur and Marketing Consultant who still loves the brain gymnastics of helping people and companies become more influential among their desired audience. Professor, Author "The Influencer Code", Speaker, Board Member and Director of C4In

Mark Schaefer and Keith Jennings dive into one of the most complicated questions in the business world ... What business are you in? Deceptively simple, Devilishly complicated, this question has been an obsession for the greatest minds in marketing for decades. And this is a question that is more relevant than ever.    Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact.He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

Mark Schaefer and Paule Roetzer of the Marketing AI Institute get out of the trenches for a moment and look at big questions facing marketers as AI barrels forward.   Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.

Most brands depend on social listening platforms to gauge brand sentiment, consumer feedback and competitor activities. But what happens in a world where most customers don't want to be seen and heard? Sara Wilson is working on this problem and in this new episode, we explore new ideas about community, conversations and the critical aspects of consumer insight in an AI World.    Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking.   Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.

Mark Schaefer and Mathew Sweezy look at the foundational and enduring role of humans to create impact, loyalty, and relationships even as they are preoccupied with AI. Mark and Mathew explore the importance of events, communities, networking and loyalty. They also talk about the next big AI "unlock" for humans, the last human competitive advantage against AI, outcome-based content marketing, and Web3 farming.    Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising.   For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking   Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

"Belonging to the Brand" sets forth Mark Schaefer's thinking about Innovative Marketing and Community Building. Let me introduce you to Mark Schaefer, who needs no introduction. With a career spanning decades, Mark has been a trailblazer, a thought leader, and a guide through the ever-shifting terrain of marketing and branding. From the dawn of social media to the rise of influencer marketing, Mark has not only witnessed these seismic shifts but has also been at the forefront, deciphering trends, and charting courses for success. But what sets Mark apart isn't just his keen insight into what's happening now—it's his uncanny ability to anticipate what's coming next. While others may struggle to keep pace with the rapid evolution of our industry, Mark has a knack for spotting emerging trends and technologies before they hit the mainstream. In this podcast, we will tap into that foresight, exploring what's happening today and what lies on the horizon. Megatrends Shaping the Future of Marketing A core theme we'll explore is bringing people together and building new communities and shared experiences. In an increasingly fragmented and polarized world, Mark understands the power of connection and is passionate about helping brands forge deeper, more meaningful relationships with their audiences. But this podcast isn't just about theory and speculation—it's about practical insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own marketing efforts. So, whether you're a seasoned marketer looking to stay ahead of the curve or a newcomer eager to learn from the best, I invite you to join us on this journey through the ever-changing marketing and branding landscape. Together, we'll be navigating tomorrow—and shaping the future of our industry along the way. The Most Human Company Wins As we wrapped up our conversation, it became clear that despite the technological advancements, the core of marketing remains unchanged: the most human company wins. In a world where AI is becoming ubiquitous, maintaining a human-centric approach is what will set successful brands apart. To learn more about Innovative Marketing, we recommend these: Podcast: Are you Ready for the Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer Podcast: Are You Ready for the Next Data-Driven-Digital Marketing Strategy? by Patrick Van Gorder Podcast: Fran Biderman-Gross—Feeling Frustrated With Business? Maybe It Is Time For A New Marketing Strategy?  

Mark Schaefer reveals his content anxiety – is he missing something by sticking with the same content formats for more than a decade? Jay Acunzo describes his strategy of starting and stopping shows and why it makes sense ... or not.  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Jay Acunzo is an author, speaker, and host of the podcast Unthinkable -- the show about marketers who trusted their intuition, not the best practices, and all the unconventional, refreshing things they did to build their brands and leave their legacies. Learn more and find a Starter Pack of episodes at https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast

Unlock the secret to turning your customers into your brand ambassadors as this episode revisits the brilliant insights from one of last year's favorite discussions. Victoria channels the wisdom of Mark Schaefer's "Marketing Rebellion" to equip you with five stellar tactics that will not only make your clients adore your brand but also transform them into eager advocates, ready to sing your praises to the world. In the episode, Victoria talks about the enchanting alchemy of customer recommendations, the unbeatable authenticity they bring compared to polished ads, and the little-known truth that your customer base can double as a potent marketing force.Victoria also talks about the power of a timely and authentic customer review which can never be overstated, and she pulls back the curtain on the art of soliciting feedback that resonates. Victoria personally invites you to join the conversation and if this chat sparks a lightbulb moment for you, consider leaving The Branding Business School Podcast a review. It's time to sharpen your CEO skills and take your brand to new heights—just hit play and let the magic unfold.Links mentioned in today's episode:Visit BrandWell DesignsMarketing Rebellion by Mark SchaeferEpisode 43: How to Get Rave Reviews from Customers to Boost Your Sales For show notes, head to www.thebrandingbusinessschool.com/thepodcast/ Show notes for episodes 1-91 can be found at www.brandwelldesigns.com/thepodcast/ Follow BrandWell on Instagram. Follow The Branding Business School on Instagram. Save 50% off your first year of Honeybook using this link! Save 50% off your first year of Flodesk using this link! Get $30 off your first month of Nuuly using this link! Get up to $150 off your first box of Factor Meals using this link!

Amanda Russell has a front and center seat in one of the biggest controversies in the history of sports. Millions of young athletes are losing their health, and in some cases their lives, to radical training programs. In this new episode, we look at the marketing of disruptive ideas in a fascinating discussion. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do 'higher education.  Former Olympic-level athlete, Founder-to-sale Entrepreneur and Marketing Consultant who still loves the brain gymnastics of helping people and companies become more influential among their desired audience. Professor, Author "The Influencer Code", Speaker, Board Member and Director of C4In

Too many companies are claiming to be beacons of social good and then not delivering. The result is a backlash against purpose-filled marketing, especially with young people. Mark Schaefer and Keith Jennings explore the current state of marketing and its role in our businesses and lives. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact.He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

Marketing to Gen Z requires drops, collabs and customization as table stakes, nostalgic IP as a ticket to ubiquity, participatory game mechanics driving virality, content and commerce finally tying the knot, and billionaire influencers, to name a few. Mark Schaefer and Sara Wilson explore how the most successful brands navigate major shifts reshaping Gen Z lives, such as the rise of AI, digital campfire platforms and the collapse of traditional media channels. These brands all know how to garner the most valuable commodity in the world: attention. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.

Brand loyalty has been in decline for years. But Mathew Sweezy is heading up new technological innovations to build loyalty through experiences and games native to the digital lifestyle. Catch a glimpse of the future of innovation with Mat and Mark Schaefer. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

We all make mistakes but rarely talk about them. That changes today as Jay Acunzo and Mark Schaefer reveal their biggest flops, miscues, and embarrassments. A lot of lessons, a lot of fun ... you won't want to miss it! Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Jay Acunzo is an author, speaker, and host of the podcast Unthinkable -- the show about marketers who trusted their intuition, not the best practices, and all the unconventional, refreshing things they did to build their brands and leave their legacies. Learn more and find a Starter Pack of episodes at https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast

If it seems like Shein and Temu have taken over the world overnight, you would not be wrong. These leading retail brands came out of nowhere by seemingly breaking all the rules of marketing. Mark Schaefer and Amanda Russell break down the biggest revolution in retail since Amazon!  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do 'higher education.  Former Olympic-level athlete, Founder-to-sale Entrepreneur and Marketing Consultant who still loves the brain gymnastics of helping people and companies become more influential among their desired audience. Professor, Author "The Influencer Code", Speaker, Board Member and Director of C4In

Mark Schaefer explains a process that started 25 years ago to begin moving his business decisions from money to activities that brought joy. Keith Jennings compares this to a five-step career journey that starts with "don't mess up" to "meaningful work that brings joy." Where are you in the process? Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact.He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

Creators are building brands, businesses, and loyal communities faster than the largest brands in the world. This is undoubtedly one of the most important trends of our lifetime, with vast implications for the future of marketing. Mark Schaefer and Sara Wilson team up to dissect this development and dissect research with vast implications for our commercial strategies.  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.

In this episode, Jeff Felton discusses his expertise in using email marketing to retain existing clients and attract new ones. He warns against a referral-only marketing strategy, advocating instead for a more comprehensive approach. To enhance client relations and build a positive reputation, Jeff proposes using newsletters, regular content creation and capitalizing on trust, generosity, and a human-focused brand strategy. He also underscores the importance of positioning oneself as a thought leader in their respective market. Jeff is an email marketing strategist and copywriter who helps service-based professionals hustle less for leads and build armies of loyal fans. In 10 yrs of marketing experience, Jeff has worked with 40+ brands, written thousands of marketing emails and written hundreds of web pages.Jeff gives listeners actionable tips on: [0:00] Intro [1:50] Building your entire firm on referrals [3:40] Jeff's experience creating his business [4:50] Pushing through valleys of your business [7:40] Repositioning and creating your niche offer [13:15] Where to start your content system [15:30] Why a blog is not a place to assume your clients are spending their time [20:25] Giving away the sauce [24:35] Building trust with your clients [30:30] The ‘attract' piece of the puzzle [35:35] How to start a conversation around a blog post [40:00] Long term nurturing [42:25] An example of a newsletter campaign [48:10] Leveraging quizzes [49:30] Jeff's book review [53:30] One big takeaway from this episode  Resources mentioned in this episode:Marketing Rebellion by Mark SchaeferConnect with Jeff here: https://www.instagram.com/content.remedy/ https://twitter.com/HeyJeffFelten https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-felten/ http://www.contentremedy.co   Connect with me Instagram Pinterest Facebook Twitter Karin on Twitter Karin on LinkedIn Conroy Creative Counsel on Facebook https://conroycreativecounsel.com 

In this episode, Jeff Felton discusses his expertise in using email marketing to retain existing clients and attract new ones. He warns against a referral-only marketing strategy, advocating instead for a more comprehensive approach.  To enhance client relations and build a positive reputation, Jeff proposes using newsletters, regular content creation and capitalizing on trust, generosity, and a human-focused brand strategy. He also underscores the importance of positioning oneself as a thought leader in their respective market.  Jeff is an email marketing strategist and copywriter who helps service-based professionals hustle less for leads and build armies of loyal fans. In 10 yrs of marketing experience, Jeff has worked with 40+ brands, written thousands of marketing emails and written hundreds of web pages. Jeff gives listeners actionable tips on: [0:00] Intro [1:50] Building your entire firm on referrals [3:40] Jeff's experience creating his business [4:50] Pushing through valleys of your business [7:40] Repositioning and creating your niche offer [13:15] Where to start your content system [15:30] Why a blog is not a place to assume your clients are spending their time [20:25] Giving away the sauce [24:35] Building trust with your clients [30:30] The ‘attract' piece of the puzzle [35:35] How to start a conversation around a blog post [40:00] Long term nurturing [42:25] An example of a newsletter campaign [48:10] Leveraging quizzes [49:30] Jeff's book review [53:30] One big takeaway from this episode  Resources mentioned in this episode: Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer Connect with Jeff here: https://www.instagram.com/content.remedy/ https://twitter.com/HeyJeffFelten https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-felten/ http://www.contentremedy.co   Connect with me Instagram Pinterest Facebook Twitter Karin on Twitter Karin on LinkedIn Conroy Creative Counsel on Facebook https://conroycreativecounsel.com 

In this episode, Jeff Felton discusses his expertise in using email marketing to retain existing clients and attract new ones. He warns against a referral-only marketing strategy, advocating instead for a more comprehensive approach.  To enhance client relations and build a positive reputation, Jeff proposes using newsletters, regular content creation and capitalizing on trust, generosity, and a human-focused brand strategy. He also underscores the importance of positioning oneself as a thought leader in their respective market.  Jeff is an email marketing strategist and copywriter who helps service-based professionals hustle less for leads and build armies of loyal fans. In 10 yrs of marketing experience, Jeff has worked with 40+ brands, written thousands of marketing emails and written hundreds of web pages. Jeff gives listeners actionable tips on: [0:00] Intro [1:50] Building your entire firm on referrals [3:40] Jeff's experience creating his business [4:50] Pushing through valleys of your business [7:40] Repositioning and creating your niche offer [13:15] Where to start your content system [15:30] Why a blog is not a place to assume your clients are spending their time [20:25] Giving away the sauce [24:35] Building trust with your clients [30:30] The ‘attract' piece of the puzzle [35:35] How to start a conversation around a blog post [40:00] Long term nurturing [42:25] An example of a newsletter campaign [48:10] Leveraging quizzes [49:30] Jeff's book review [53:30] One big takeaway from this episode  Resources mentioned in this episode: Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer Connect with Jeff here: https://www.instagram.com/content.remedy/ https://twitter.com/HeyJeffFelten https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-felten/ http://www.contentremedy.co   Connect with me Instagram Pinterest Facebook Twitter Karin on Twitter Karin on LinkedIn Conroy Creative Counsel on Facebook https://conroycreativecounsel.com 

Welcome to episode #905 of Six Pixels of Separation - The ThinkersOne Podcast. Here it is: Six Pixels of Separation - The ThinkersOne Podcast - Episode #905. A seasoned marketing consultant, keynote speaker and blogger, Mark Schaefer brings decades of experience to a discipline often clouded by buzzwords. Mark is all about cutting through the complexity of digital noise to foster real connections for the brand and their customers. His latest book, Belonging To The Brand, explores the concept of community as a cornerstone of customer loyalty. In it, Mark details pragmatic approaches for brands to earn trust and advocacy, suggesting that the key lies in creating a sense of belonging among consumers. This book is a guide rooted in the principle that meaningful engagement trumps transient marketing victories. Complementing this practical approach to marketing, Mark also recently published, The Most Amazing Marketing Book Ever, which is a collection of diverse perspectives from marketing professionals across the industry, advocating for a collective learning mindset (the authors were culled from his private marketing community). That book reinforces the idea that the most robust marketing strategies emerge from a mosaic of insights. Like me, Mark is a long-time blogger, offering opinions and actionable advice from evolving digital tactics to leveraging social media for genuine engagement. Beyond his writing, Mark prides himself on being an educator, marketing consultant and speaker. His philosophy is simple: Understand your audience deeply and engage with them authentically. If you're looking for insights that are both practical and forward-thinking, we battle it out thinking about where marketing is headed. Take a glimpse into the latest marketing trends and strategies, while also being reminded how enduring principles of community and authenticity can be applied in today's fully-digital world. Enjoy the conversation... Running time: 1:02:04. Hello from beautiful Montreal. Subscribe over at Apple Podcasts. Please visit and leave comments on the blog - Six Pixels of Separation. Feel free to connect to me directly on Facebook here: Mitch Joel on Facebook. Check out ThinkersOne. or you can connect on LinkedIn. ...or on Twitter. Here is my conversation with Mark Schaefer. Belonging To The Brand. The Most Amazing Marketing Book Ever. Marketing Rebellion. Known. Cumulative Advantage. Mark's other books. Mark's Blog. Rise Community. Follow Mark on X. Follow Mark on LinkedIn. This week's music: David Usher 'St. Lawrence River'.

Mark Schaefer and Amanda Russell explore the Pratfall Effect, a psychological model that says we gain trust and credibility through revealing our mistakes. In this fascinating episode, they look at case studies from Mark's dressing habits and a weird burger commercial, to cookies and Mark Zuckerberg's hoodie. Mistakes in marketing can work, but only within a certain context. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do 'higher education.  Former Olympic-level athlete, Founder-to-sale Entrepreneur and Marketing Consultant who still loves the brain gymnastics of helping people and companies become more influential among their desired audience. Professor, Author "The Influencer Code", Speaker, Board Member and Director of C4In

Can you base a marketing strategy on generosity? It's complex, exciting, and perhaps a key part of our future in business. Keith Jennings has studied the psychology and sociology of generosity and is convinced it should be a core strategy. Mark and Keith explore this idea and a multitude of angles when kindness counts most of all in this unusual episode! Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact. He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

As marketers sort through the new bag of AI magic tricks, it's important to stay centered on real value and the human connection at the center of marketing. In this episode, Mark Schaefer and Dennis Yu take a fresh look at the Human-Centered Marketing Manifesto and debate its relevance in the new digital landscape Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Dennis Yu is on a mission to create a million jobs by training up international workers to serve American companies. Former search engine engineer who has spent a billion dollars on ads. Best-selling author and speaker.

Sara Wilson and Mark Schaefer attended Z Con, the first conference fully dedicated to Gen Z -- up on by Gen Z leaders. It provided a fascinating glimpse into the minds and memes of a generation that punched above its weight when it comes to cultural influence. In this show you'll get an eye-popping look at what it takes to achieve business and brand success when it comes to this new generation of consumers.  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.

Mark Schaefer and Mathew Sweezey discuss how the AI revolution is impacting them as business leaders, entrepreneurs, and simply individuals trying to make their way in the world. Mark and Mathew discuss their current AI priorities, hacks, and the aspects of this development keeping them up at night. Where do they see the pitfalls and opportunities? Find out in this fascinating episode!  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

There are plenty of frameworks for successful content creation, but can ANYBODY breakthrough with a successful blog, podcast, or video series these days ... or does it take some "special sauce?" Mark Schaefer and Jay Acunzo debate the issue and don't always agree in this fascinating episode.   Mark and Jay cover what it takes to create a defensible content property, the importance of being pissed off, why marketers create the worst content, and the importance of "awe" in the content world. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker, and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. For more of Mark's insights every week, subcribe to his award-winning blog. Mark also offers classes in personal branding and professional speaking. Jay Acunzo is an author, speaker, and host of the podcast Unthinkable -- the show about marketers who trusted their intuition, not the best practices, and all the unconventional, refreshing things they did to build their brands and leave their legacies. Learn more and find a Starter Pack of episodes at https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast

AI is moving quickly into every crevice of the marketing world but the impact on content has been immediate and profound. Where does AI matter, and where will humans persist and thrive? Mark Schaefer and Amanda Russell discuss a hierarchy of content in the AI world and the impact on the personal brand. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do higher education. 

Mark Schaefer, marketing strategist, keynote speaker, university educator, and bestselling author of "Marketing Rebellion," "KNOWN," "Cumulative Advantage" and his latest book, "Belonging to the Brand." We discuss community, how to build it, how to get out of the way, the temptations to avoid if you want your community to flourish.

Izzy is star-struck as one of her marketing heroes is a guest on the Space Marketing Podcast. Mark Schaefer is a marketing guru with 10 best-selling books, a prominent speaker, podcaster, blogger, and more. They chat about some of the powerful books that he has written that have impacted Izzy's career and helped define her point-of-view for her marketing perspective that she shares with the world. Mark also talks about his love of space and the importance of being human.  ABOUT MARK SCHAEFER Author, speaker, futurist, and business consultant https://businessesgrow.com/ Community - RISE https://businessesgrow.com/rise-community/ Podcast - Marketing Companion https://businessesgrow.com/podcast-the-marketing-companion-2/ Blog - Grow https://businessesgrow.com/blog/ Book list: https://businessesgrow.com/social-media-marketing-books/ Books mentioned: Known Marketing Rebellion Belonging to the Brand Cumulative Advantage CHAPTERS 01:17 Introduction 02:43 Story of Mark's impact on Izzy 04:48 Known book 08:06 Marketing Rebellion book 11:42 Cumulative Advantage book 17:05 ActiveCampaign 19:12 Belonging to the Brand book 23:29 Narrating your books on Audible 26:22 David Meerman Scott - Marketing the Moon 27:18 Mark's space journey 30:29 Apollo Program as a marketing case study 31:53 SkyView and NASA Brand 33:53 Apollo program woven with marketing 35:19 Podcast anniversary 38:54 Jason Falls 40:10 Sneak peek - RISE Community 41:25 Marketing Retreat - Uprising 43:32 Global Community 45:11 Space for Kentucky 44:45 Blog {Grow} 46:14 Final Thoughts - Be human 49:44 Ending remarks SHOW NOTES David Meerman Scott  Apollo artifacts with two collections: https://www.apolloartifacts.com https://www.apollopresskits.com Marketing the Moon book https://www.davidmeermanscott.com/books/marketing-the-moon Marketing Podcast Network https://marketingpodcasts.net/ SkyView App Apollo Program https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/apollo/missions/index.html ABOUT IZZY Izzy's website - https://izzy.house Author of Space Marketing: Competing in the new commercial space industry AND Space Marketing: Spaceports on Amazon and Audible - https://bit.ly/Space-Marketing Podcast host for Space Marketing Podcast - https://spacemarketingpodcast.com Organizer for Space for Kentucky Roundtable - https://spaceforkentucky.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dennis Yu and Mark Schaefer explore why public speaking is becoming a more important in the marketing mix. Speaking builds authority and trust and can cut through the disinformation of our world. Mark and Dennis also reveal some of their public speaking highs and lows and reveal their secrets to battle onstage nerves. This episode is a fascinating and fun collection of tips and stories! Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Dennis Yu is on a mission to create a million jobs by training up international workers to serve American companies. Former search engine engineer who has spent a billion dollars on ads. Best-selling author and speaker.

"Open Loyalty" is an exciting new idea that transforms traditional notions of loyalty with cutting edge technology. Some of the biggest brands are experimenting with the idea. Let's learn about the future of loyalty with Mathew Sweezey and Mark Schaefer. Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Mathew Sweezey is the Co-Founder of Salesforces Web3 Studio where he helped Salesforce and their top customers transition into Web3. Mathew an independent consultant, a best selling author, and avid adventurer. 

In this era where AI is nipping at the heels of our marketing careers, there is no more important idea than defining how you fit into this new eco-system, or, ad Jay Acunzo puts it, "What is the gist of you?" Jay and Mark Schaefer take a deep dive into the meaning of brand and personal relevance in a world exploding with new creative output.  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN," “Belonging to the Brand,” and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Jay Acunzo is an author, speaker, and host of the podcast Unthinkable -- the show about marketers who trusted their intuition, not the best practices, and all the unconventional, refreshing things they did to build their brands and leave their legacies. Learn more and find a Starter Pack of episodes at  https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast

Today's episode features a special guest, Mark Schaefer, a globally-recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. Mark and Sarah delve into the significance of community in today's world and its role in humane marketing. They explore the difference between a community and an audience, the importance of letting go of control as a community builder, the struggles of building a community, and the potential synergy between AI and human communities. They also discuss effective strategies for attracting new members, common mistakes made by community builders and how AI fits into the picture of community. As entrepreneurs, understanding the essence of community building and the benefits it offers can help us create meaningful connections and grow our businesses sustainably. He studied under Peter Drucker for three years and has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. Mark holds seven patents and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. His blog and podcast -- The Marketing Companion -- are at the top of the charts in the marketing field. Customized for every audience, Mark's inspiring and memorable programs specialize in marketing and strategies for digital marketing, social media, and personal branding. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, Dell, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 path-finding books including the first book ever written on influence marketing. Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide. In this episode, Mark and I discuss: Why community is more important now then ever before The difference between a community and an audience The role of the ego for community builders The struggles of building a community AI and human communities: can they work together? And much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back. We arrived once again at the seventh P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Today's conversation fits under the P of. Partnership. If you are a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan that comes with [00:03:00] the seven Ps of Humane marketing@humane.marketing slash one page. [00:03:06] The number one and the word page, and this truly is a completely different version of the seven Ps of marketing that starts with yourself. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps. And so, like I said, today's. Conversation fits under the seventh p the P of partnership, and clearly that's a new P that I added. [00:03:32] It didn't exist in the original sixties version of the seven Ps of marketing. In today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague and fellow marketer, mark Schaffer. Mark is a returning guest as I've spoken to him twice before, since we're fellow introverts. And so he came once to speak on my. Previous podcasts, the one, two podcasts before. [00:03:58] So not the [00:04:00] gentle marketing podcasts, but the one before that, and where I was mainly talking to introverts. I'll dig out the episode. Link so you can go listen to that. So mark spoke to me about being an introvert in business and marketing, and then I had him come back also to talk about his book Marketing Rebellion which actually came out just before. [00:04:22] Weeks before marketing like we're human, which was then called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. So clearly we're kindred spirits, not just personality wise, but also otherwise how we think. Again, we didn't talk about this, but he came out with Marketing Rebellion and for me it was marketing Revolution. [00:04:45] So I'll tell you a bit more about Mark in just a moment, but. Since today's topic is all about community, I want to take a moment to tell you about our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and what we've been up to in the last [00:05:00] few weeks and months. So the Humane Marketing Circle is a growing community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs. [00:05:08] Here's the theme again, with the rebellion or the revolution. So we're a community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something fresh and new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building, and also a new way of being in community. We now have. Four monthly gatherings, two meetups in which we discuss marketing, one 90 minute business or marketing related workshop with an expert or someone from the community. [00:05:40] So I always try to find experts within the community because we're all experts. And then every now and then if I don't find someone in the community, I'll go and look outside. We're also starting this month with an. Extra call we, that we call net weaving, so it's not networking, but [00:06:00] net weaving which we focus on, in which we focus on forming friendships between members that then lead to new business op. [00:06:08] Opportunities, collaborations, referrals, et cetera. But the main focus is to be human in these net weaving calls. Really just let go of the mask and show up as humans in our comfy clothes and on our couches and sofas, and just build friendships that then eventually lead to new business opportunities. [00:06:31] Here's how our community meetups work. So those are the two regular monthly meetings that we have. One of them I lead and one of them is led by one of our three community ambassadors. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what. It works for us in marketing. [00:06:54] For example, one of the last calls we talked about AI and we share [00:07:00] tools and discussed benefits, dangers, overall ethical questions. We also, just on the last call, we talked about the gentle sales path and what members are doing in terms of bringing new people into their gentle sales paths. And so we take turns, we raise our hands and take turns and everybody. [00:07:19] Is really a leader in the, in their chair, and they get to learn from others and also share. And in the second half of the call, we go into breakout rooms and we have a more intimate conversation with other heart-centered entrepreneurs, which is super valuable because we don't often get this, you know, brainstorming and kind of feedback from other entrepreneurs. [00:07:46] And for example, this month our topic is the P of people. So I always bring a question for the breakout rooms and We discussed, for example a limiting belief that holds our people back. So [00:08:00] what's a limiting belief that holds our clients back? And then we took turns in sharing that in the small breakout room. [00:08:07] So that's the format. Of our meetups. Then we've also successfully transitioned to our new community platform on Kajabi, and I have to say I'm super pleased with it. It's such a lot of fun. We had our first live call directly. In our live room, in the community, so not on Zoom but directly within the Cajabi community, which makes it really safe and it feels like you're really unique to us. [00:08:37] So rather than being on Zoom, which we kind of all use, but it, it has become this tool where. We somehow we show up in our business mindset where if we're all of a sudden in our own platform and we have a call, and it just really felt like, oh, this is, this is our [00:09:00] home. We're hanging out in our home. [00:09:01] And that's what members also mentioned. There's still a few bugs that were working out, but All in all, we love this new community platform on Kajabi, and we're just truly embracing it. And then, as I said, Eddie, our community facilitator will lead his first NetWeaving call really a, a fun call to foster friendships between members that then lead to business opportunities. [00:09:27] I'm super excited to have him on board. It's interesting because Mark, you'll hear him say in. In our podcast episode, you'll hear him say that it's good to hire the youngest member you can find, or the, the youngest person you can find. And so that's exactly what I did with Eddie. He's a millennial probably even. [00:09:48] Younger than millennial. Millennials are now kind of like, oh, they're, you know, they aged as well. So he's, he's 27 and he just brings such a new perspective, such a [00:10:00] different way of being in community, which yeah, which we all love. So it's been great. So I created a, a special may coupon code for you if you'd like to join us now and save 15% on your monthly membership rate for as long as you stay. [00:10:16] So if you feel like now's the time, you can use the coupon code may gift. So, m. A Y G I F T on the checkout page by going to humane.marketing/circle. And this code is valid until May 31st, 2023. So with that, let's go back to our conversation with Mark. About communities. But first, let me tell you a bit about Mark. [00:10:46] So Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. His clients range from successful startups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson and Johnson, [00:11:00] Dell, Pfizer, the US Air Force, and the UK government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 pathfinding books, including the first book ever written on influence marketing. [00:11:11] Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities have been translated into 15 languages and can be found in more than 250 libraries worldwide. In today's episode we talked about why community is more important now than ever before. The difference between a community and an audience. [00:11:34] The role of the ego for community builders, the struggles of building a community, how hard it is really to get people together and host the space. And finally we also talk about AI and the role of AI in human communities and how they can work together, cuz that's actually the third part of Mark's new book, belonging to the Brand.[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Let's dive in with Mark. [00:12:34] Court. Good to see you, mark. I, I just said, let's just hit record because we're already sharing all, all this, this good stuff. So we are, we are excited to have you back on the show here. Really looking forward to talking to you about community. Your latest book has a lot of bookmarks already. [00:12:57] Definitely excited. Belonging to the [00:13:00] brand by community is the last great marketing strategy. So let's dive right into it. Most people on, on my show already know who you are. So I'm not gonna go into tell me who Mark Schaffer is and all of that stuff. Why is community so essential and why now? [00:13:18] Mark: I think that's, that's the question is, is, is why now? [00:13:22] Because community has, has always been essential. There's a great quote in the book. From a, there's a great marketer. He was with Coca-Cola, he was with Airbnb, Jonathan Milton Hall, and Jonathan said, look, when our ancestors were gathering around the fire, it, it wa it, it was to create this sense of belonging. [00:13:44] We've always longed to belong a lot of the social structures in our world today. You know, have, have just collapsed, especially here in America. A lot of the ways we used to gather and, and find that community are gone. A lot of that [00:14:00] was made a lot worse during the pandemic. Now I wanna go back a step and assure people this isn't like a touchy-feely, fluffy book about, you know, You know why we should all be in a community. [00:14:14] This is a business book with, I think, a very strong business case of why businesses should view community as part of their marketing strategy. Community isn't new from the first days of the internet. Businesses tried to create communities. Most of them failed because they were set out to like sell more stuff. [00:14:39] People don't really want to gather to buy more stuff, so they didn't really work. Most of the communities today, about 70% of the communities that actually work today for businesses are focused on transactions, customer self-service, which is fine, but the point of my book is that. [00:15:00] The, the purpose of branding is to create this emotional connection with our customers. [00:15:05] A feeling, a meaning that keeps them connected to us. And there's no more powerful way to do that than community. And I show a lot of data. I have a lot of case studies in the book that kind of prove this while we're focused on. You know, customer self-service, which is what most communities look at, look at today. [00:15:28] We're missing bigger opportunities like collaborate, collaboration, co-creation, customer advocacy, sharing information quickly. These are all massive benefits that are going away in other marketing channels. So number one. This is a business book about marketing that works. But I also point out this is marketing that heals, which is a unique aspect of this idea. [00:15:57] Mm-hmm. Because as we talked about, we've got [00:16:00] this mental health crisis going. Everywhere in the world. I don't know what it's like for you in Switzerland, but here it's in the news every day, especially with our young people today. And so we're longing to belong. We need to belong. And if businesses would look at really effective communities from the brand marketing lens, it not only works, but it can actually have a very positive impact on our customers and even the world. [00:16:31] Yeah. [00:16:32] Sarah: And it's so interesting because in our pre-recording talk, we, we discussed, You know, I, I mentioned that I was gonna actually go all in and create a live event, and, and I mentioned that I have a place in Sicily, and you were like, oh, I like Sicily. And it reminded me of one of the stories in your book, and I think it's in the beginning of the book, where you talk about this store, this shop that I think it was actually led by a Sicilian, or [00:17:00] originally Sicilians, right? [00:17:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, and they still have this. Shop. Yeah. So tell us the story about, because it it, and I tell you what I told my husband and, and really that's still the feeling that we get in Sicily. Like it really is still like that. Yeah. So tell us that story. Well, we don't [00:17:19] Mark: have that. It's, we don't have that feeling in a, in America or most places, so, yeah. [00:17:23] So. You know, when when I was a little boy, it was always a special occasion when my grandfather brought something back from, he, he would call it the Italian store. And so I, I got to go back. This store has still been there since 1903. Three brothers. Came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they started making pasta, handmade pasta, and now they, it's still in the same family. [00:17:53] Mm-hmm. And the family members make a point to be there in the store, you know, interacting with [00:18:00] customers. Mm-hmm. If you, if there's any, they, they also do like a lot of Shipping and stuff of their specialty products. And if there's ever a problem, I mean, one of, one of those family members is paying attention to it. [00:18:12] You know themselves, well, I, I, I was away from this store for like 40 years, came back, visited Pittsburgh and I, I went to this, this area. Which used to be like a, a, just like a warehouse area, you know, really kind of busy and, you know, dirty Now it's a, it's a big tourist area. Mm-hmm. And the store is still there. [00:18:34] Same old wooden floors. This, all the signs are handwritten all over the stores and, And you know, I walk in and they've got this huge class case with 400 different kinds of cheese, just magnificent and smoked sausages and all these things that they're bringing in from Italy and, and you know, most, mostly Italy, but some other parts of the world. [00:18:58] And I go there and [00:19:00] the people at the counter. Know the customers and they're asking about their, their family and their husbands. And, and one lady was there and her husband had had a health problem and the lady said, well, we just got his favorite kind of cheese. Let me wrap that up. Take it home to him, you know, that maybe this will make him feel better. [00:19:20] And then the lady looked over to the corner and there's some, some of her friends sitting there, she went over to talk to them. And I just felt so sad. Because I've never experienced this. Hmm. And I'm just one generational away, right from this is how all business was done. And I just longed to, to, to walk in a place where people would know me and connect with me and to me. [00:19:49] Shopping is just anxiety. I, I, I don't even, I don't want to go anyplace. Right. You know, it's just a process for me of being overwhelmed and disappointed. So I'm, you know, that's [00:19:59] Sarah: [00:20:00] the introvert in us, right? We're [00:20:01] Mark: like, no, thanks. Yeah. You and I, you and I had a special show on that a few years ago. Yeah. Right. [00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. After I shop, I just wanna go home and crawl under a blanket. Oh yeah. So so, so it, it's this idea of. We've always had this inside of us. This it's, it's in our D n A, it's this tribal sort of thing is on a deep psychological and sociological level. We have got to belong. And Sarah, this was one of the elements in my life that. [00:20:35] Provoked me that drove me to write this book. A few years ago, there was a headline in the New York Times that said The Loneliest Generation. Mm-hmm. And was referring to Gen Z. And it just, it just broke my heart how our children and these teenagers, they're just suffering. Suffering. They're so isolated and lonely and depressed. [00:20:59] And[00:21:00] as I said, look You know, this is a business book, but it's also a way I think we can at least. Be aware of these issues in our world and think about how this can have a positive impact on, on, you know, everybody today, not just young people. Young people. They're finding their own communities. I talk about this at the end of the book. [00:21:22] You know, they're, they're, they're moving into their own communities and to the extent that. Companies, and not just companies. Why I say companies. It could be a nonprofit, it could be a university, you know, it could be, you know, whatever. A, a un an insurance company, a symphony, whatever, a nonprofit the, I think the com, the, the organizations that are the most human, which I know is something close to your heart. [00:21:48] The companies and the organizations that are the most belonging. How, how would it look like in your. Company in your culture, in your marketing, if you thought we're gonna be [00:22:00] the most belonging company, it, it, it, it sort of, you know, presents an interesting idea of how you might approach marketing in a, in a different way. [00:22:11] Yeah, [00:22:11] Sarah: absolutely. So, and, and that story about this Italian shab, it's not just a beautiful story, but it's a, an excellent business case. Yeah. Cause. You know, how hard is it for a small shop like that to survive and them still existing after 40 years? Well, It has to have to do [00:22:30] Mark: something. Community. It's, it's been well, they've been there since 1903. [00:22:36] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not just, I was Generat four. Yeah. It had been 40 years since I had been there. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the same store. Yeah. They, they, yeah. It's, it's bigger now, but yeah. It's the same, it's the same store. [00:22:50] Sarah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like reading the book and I so resonate with this. [00:22:58] Because just like [00:23:00] anything in marketing marketer, marketers have a tendency to grab the latest Conta concept. So let's just say, okay, mark Schaffer, yay. He writes about communities, right? Yeah. And six months later, that's the latest marketing thing, right? It's like, just like we did with authenticity, just like we did with vulnerability, marketers are really good at jumping on these words and then abusing the crap out of them. [00:23:30] Yeah. And so what I really liked about your book, and you mentioned it several times, is this concept of letting go of control that. You cannot control a community growth. You cannot Yeah. You know, somehow market or Yeah. Kind of manipulate a community. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, talk to us about that. [00:23:56] Mark: Well, that's probably something you've learned [00:24:00] firsthand in your community, but, you know, give you a story that so when I started my community, I have a community On Discord, which I didn't really wanna be on Discord, but my community said, we wanna be on Discord. [00:24:12] So I'm giving up control. So here we are in Discord, thought, well, this is a community. This is a community that, you know, I kind of brought these people together and they're interested in the future of marketing. So they're probably interested in things I'm talking about, like personal branding and being a professional speaker and writing books. [00:24:34] So I created. My own little chat rooms thinking, oh, this is where we're gonna have interesting dialogue about these subjects. Now those rooms are the emptiest rooms on the whole site because they, they didn't wanna go there. They took it in completely different direction. They said, look, we wanna talk about the metaverse, we wanna talk about web three. [00:24:58] We wanna talk about chat, [00:25:00] G P T and artificial intelligence, and. They were right. We need to be talking about those things, right? They've taken me a whole new direction. It's, but that community has become my university. I'm learning from them. Almost every blog, post, podcast or speech I give the, a lot of the information and stories are coming out of that community, right? [00:25:24] So they're keeping me relevant because they're spread out all over the world. You know, teaching me what they're seeing is, is, is going on out there. [00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that letting go of the control and, and almost like letting the community taking over that is Yeah. That is so big and it's, it's so, I think against what a lot of us business owners or marketers have learned where we, and I, and I also. [00:25:54] Remember you or mentioning that a community is definitely not an audience, [00:26:00] right? That distinction is so essential and yet, We see probably 90% of the people using the words interchangeably. They call a community, they, they say they have a community where they actually just have a free Facebook group where they sell their [00:26:16] Mark: programs. [00:26:17] Yeah. And I think the distinction is important because that's where the real power is. Right? You know, when people have an audience, And they say, this is my community. I say, well, the do do the people in the AU in your audience, do they know each other? Do they connect to each other? And the answer is no, cuz they're an audience. [00:26:37] Now I'm not. I mean, an audience is really important. I mean, I have an audience, right? And those are the people who buy things from me. So, I mean, audience is great, but. When people know each other and they build relationships, connections, and they collaborate and they do things together in new ways, that goodwill and [00:27:00] that emotion transfers to the brand. [00:27:04] This is one of the profound lessons I think in the book. I mean, I did a deep dig, deep dive on a lot of the psychology of community, the sociology of community, and almost suggests that, and this is hence at your point, that leadership in a community is like upside down compared to traditional marketing. [00:27:27] Yeah. You know leadership. And so instead of building the connection between the brand, And our audience. It's about building the connection between the audience members to create this community, because if you do that, it creates this layer of emotional switching costs. Mm-hmm. Like, these are my friends, this is my community. [00:27:49] I can never leave this brand cuz I never wanna leave this community. Right. So it, it, it, there's a lot of. Non-intuitive things about [00:28:00] community success That, that I'm, I'm learning firsthand. Yeah. [00:28:03] Sarah: And, and that's where I think you brought in the live event. And that's when I'm like, I. I'm a hundred percent convinced because I've been, you know, I had my community probably two, three years now, and I, what I've been learning is that there's a lot of unlearning first of all for the leader of the community, but then also for members of the community because I feel like as marketers we have kind of brainwashed. [00:28:34] Clients and customers into these membership site type things where people just come to consume content rather than to actually show up and Yeah. You know, express themselves and say, this is what works for me, what works for you, and collaborating, and so I've been kind of like, Yeah. Empower, giving power back to the people and saying, no, I [00:29:00] want you to show [00:29:01] Mark: up. [00:29:01] Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a really, really good point. You know, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine last week. He has, has a community, but it's really an audience. Because it's, it's the, you know, he's, he's like creating content and it's premium content that you only get if you're in this community. [00:29:24] Right. And it, it, there's not really a lot of focus. I mean, that's a [00:29:28] Sarah: membership site. Yeah, it is. I think that type, yeah, that those three words, they're kind of like Yeah. Creating, yeah. [00:29:35] Mark: It's a membership site. Mm-hmm. You know, in my community. It is, it's free, it's open it, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, everybody is welcome to, to come in and give it a try. [00:29:47] You know, I, I do have like a, like a v i p section where it's like a small amount of money every year. And then, you know, we get, we have meetings with like legendary, legendary marketing people [00:30:00] and And that's a lot of fun. But I mean, at least 90% of the community is just there. It's free and we're just helping each other and it's very generous and very kind. [00:30:10] And you know, I made so many new friends and no many new connections. And of course, as I said, it's just become my number one place to, to learn about what's, what's new. I mean, I was really early. In the in the AI generated content around art, like mid journey and I mean, it was like people in my community said, have you seen this? [00:30:35] Get a membership, try this thing. And it was just like, oh my gosh. I mean this, like my, my jaw just dropped on the table. It was so unbelievable. And that, you know, I was early on chat G p t again because my community's like pulling me into these things, right? And, and, and I think that's a big part of being relevant today, not necessarily being an expert. [00:30:58] In everything, [00:31:00] but knowing enough to at least ask the right questions about everything. Just, you know, dabbling in the metaverse and web three and all these new things, and that the community's helping me remain relevant. What, what a gift is that? Now think about what that means to a big brand. Yeah. Is, is, is, you know Sarah, I saw this amazing quote. [00:31:21] Oh, I, I, I got hung on this. It was probably four years ago now. There's a quote by the C m O of Pepsi and he said the days of the big brand are over the big brand campaign. Campfires. Bonfires are over. And today it's about. Being relevant in cultural moments. And I thought that is fascinating, but what does that really mean? [00:31:54] How does that show up? And if you watch what some of these brands are doing now, they like, if there's like a [00:32:00] big award show like the Grammys or the Emmys or the Oscars and or, or there's like big festivals. One of the things Pepsi did for example, was there was some big like cultural festival. In, in New York and they created a soft drink, especially for this festival. [00:32:22] It tasted like zindel or something, right? I mean, I can't imagine how bizarre that would be, but it was a in a pink can. But you know, if, if you play this out, how can you be? What would be the platform to be relevant in these cultural moments? What would be more powerful than a community that's taking you into these moments? [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Exposing you to these moments. Yeah. And, and I, I, so I think big company, small company solopreneur it, it, it, it's something that must be considered really for any kind of business right now. [00:33:00] Yeah, [00:33:00] Sarah: I absolutely agree. And, and, and I think one y you did say, okay, this is a business book, but business is so human today to come back to my favorite topic and, and yeah. [00:33:12] And so those are those humanizing moments, right? It's like, we're not, and that's why the. Let me build a community so that I can sell more stuff. Doesn't work, because that's not why humans gather. They don't, right. They don't come into a community to buy more. And so I think brands need to be super careful with that, you know, thing they, they can go completely wrong if they start selling into the community. [00:33:41] Mark: Yeah. That, that's the number one. Right. Reason why communities. Fail Yeah. Is because they say, okay, well, we'll start a community, but you know, this is gonna help us meet our, our quarterly sales numbers. And, you know, a company has to do that. I've, I've been in that world for a long time, but that's, that's gonna [00:34:00] drive your community away. [00:34:01] And it, you know, I, I think one of the gifts of this book, I hope people see this as a gift, is in chapter 10, I look at measurement. In an entirely new way. I mean, community and measurement. This has been just a, a thorn in the side of communities forever and. I give a case study in the book about these big sports drink brands, Gatorade versus Powerade, and I show the power of brand marketing where you sponsor events and you're, you know, you get connected to cultural moments and you know, maybe you sponsor the World Cup. [00:34:44] Well, okay, so if you sponsor the World Cup and your brand is everywhere. Does that sell more products? Yes. Can we measure that? No, [00:35:00] probably not. So I make this distinction between brand marketing and direct marketing. And what I'm showing is that almost every community is trying to manage it and measure it like direct marketing. [00:35:16] But if you do that, you, you miss the whole thing about trust. And loyalty and emotion and love and co-creation, collaboration and advocacy, you're missing the main event. Mm-hmm. And so you, if, if, if the community reports to the marketing department, which understands what brand marketing is, we kind of take that pressure off and, and we look at other measures. [00:35:43] That may not necessarily be directly tied to the bottom line, but we know it's a leading indicator of, of the bottom line. One of the biggest communities in the whole world is Sephora. Now Sephora is a cosmetics company. Do you have [00:36:00] Sephora over there? And We do. Yeah. They're, they're, they're based in Europe, I think. [00:36:03] Yeah. And they're French, right? I think maybe French. Yeah. They've got brick and mortar stores. In, in many, many countries, every major city in America has just a forest store, but 80% of their sales come from their online community. And their number one measure in their community is engagement because they see engagement as the leading indicator to to sales. [00:36:34] Mm-hmm. So it's, again, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, This turns the traditional marketing mindset kind of upside down. But this, I think this is where the world needs to go. I think 20 years from now, maybe 30 years from now, we're, we're gonna, the, the young people leading businesses today are already moving this direction. [00:36:59] They're [00:37:00] already moving to community. 85% of startups today are leading with community as they're. Main marketing idea. 30 years from now, the world's gonna look back at the period we're in now. And we're gonna say, remember those days we used to spam people. We used to interrupt people, intercept people. We used to bother them. [00:37:22] We used to fill their mailboxes with all this direct mail that wasn't even relevant to them anymore. What were we thinking? Okay. I'm so happy we read Mark's book 30 years ago. [00:37:36] Sarah: No, I, I have to say, like, I, I really feel like you pivoted or you kind of. Created this new path with Marketing Rebellion already. [00:37:46] Yes, exactly. Right. And now this is like, you know, for whoever is ready for the next. Paradigm, basically. I'm, I'm glad you picked up. I'm so glad to have you kind of, you know, forged this [00:38:00] path for people like myself, because that is the, I wanna cry, like, this is the biggest pushback I always got is like, you can't measure it. [00:38:08] You can't measure humane marketing. Yeah. And I felt like saying, so what? You know? Yeah. Right. This is the only way we gotta go. Yeah. And, and so now to say, well then if you don't listen to me, listen to Mark [00:38:21] Mark: Schaffer. Right? Yeah. I mean, it is, it is. And look, I'm like, I'm a measurement junkie. You know, I've, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually have the, the equivalent of a master's degree in statistics. [00:38:33] So, I mean, I'm all about the numbers. But you know, there was a very powerful quote from Marketing Rebellion that I actually repeated in, in the new book, and it's this idea. That you can either keep, keep pace with the, with the pulse of our culture, or you can measure, you probably can't do both. I mean, I, I, I, I think Sarah, there, there's [00:39:00] no business leader. [00:39:01] Anywhere right now that can't be feeling a little overwhelmed by the by the amount and velocity of change. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you've got to, to, you've gotta make that leap at some point to say, We've gotta go to market a different way. We can't keep holding. It's, it's a sickness. It literally is a sickness that we're holding on to this scaffolding of the old ways, you know, our, our relationships with ad agencies and producing, you know, glamorous television commercials. [00:39:35] Cause you know, cuz we can win an award for this and, and, and, and it, it's hard. To change our, our, our, the culture of our company to start embracing these new things. I think every company today should be taking at least 10% of their marketing budget and experimenting maybe on things you can't measure. [00:39:58] You have no, have no hope of [00:40:00] measuring to move more toward this human-centered. View of, of marketing. Because just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I mean, there's a lot of things we can't measure. We can't measure, you know, wind, we can't, me, well, we can measure, we can't measure love, right? [00:40:19] We can't measure love. We can't measure. How good we feel on a, on a sunny day. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the beach, doesn't mean we shouldn't fall in love. We need to take advantage of those things. And there are many things in marketing today, you know, we are in the early days, in the early stages, and especially young people today have entirely different expectations and of, of what they want from businesses and what they want from marketing. [00:40:47] And we've gotta start moving that way now. Gen Z. They're not babies. We just had the first member of Gen Z become elected to the United States Congress. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] They're consumers, right? In the next five years, they're gonna be our leaders, right? And our procurement managers. So, and, and, you know, great entrepreneurs. [00:41:10] So, I mean, we need, we need to wake up. We really do. Yeah. We need to get rid of this, these sick, these sick, antiquated practices and, and wake up to, to, to deliver. You know, we're gonna stop doing things that people hate. Just stop it and then double down. How do you feel? [00:41:29] Sarah: Yeah. How, how do you feel about, so these, you know, the marketers that are out there now in, in, let's say in bigger companies, but even entrepreneurs, like, besides you, you reading your book, how are they, how are we gonna get them up to speed with these skills? [00:41:48] Because unfortunately, Unless they have the luck to have you at their, at a lecture in their university, they're still being taught marketing from the sixties. Yeah. [00:42:00] It's, it's such a big mismatch. And, and I see that in, in the online marketing sphere as well. We're still being marketed to like 20 years ago with all the shaming and manipulating and [00:42:12] Mark: on the lot. [00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, Sarah, that a lot of the problem right now is actually even in the universities. I mean, the universities many universities are so far behind. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, I, I think I. The slowest moving. Most bureaucratic organizations I've ever worked with are, are universities and these are the institutions sad that we're, that we're counting on to, to keep our, our students relevant. [00:42:42] And there's many young people coming outta universities that are, you know, connecting to me saying, I'm totally unprepared for the world. All this stuff I learned, nobody's even doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, so there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues. But here's the thing that gives me a lot of hope. [00:42:59] I. [00:43:00] First of all, there is change happening. Absolutely. Sarah. There have been people that have taken my Marketing rebellion book and said, this is the new framework. This is the way we're gonna go forward, not just small companies. There's a Fortune 100 company that, that contacted me and said, this is the way we need to go forward. [00:43:20] You know, how can you help us do this? So that's number one. Number two. I think the best leaders today, they wanna stay relevant. You know, to, if you are managing a brand, here is your mission. A brand is a never ending journey of relentless. Relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance to now, to this moment, to this year, to this culture. [00:43:49] That's it. That's your job. Yeah. And, and to be relevant, you, you, you, you, you've gotta move away from some of these things that people just see are [00:44:00] not relevant anymore. They don't even work anymore, right? So we've got to start reaching out. We've got to start experimenting. And I think what gives me hope is that, look, any, any. [00:44:12] Great professional today. They know this. They wanna be relevant, they wanna be relevant in their careers, they want their companies to be relevant and, and so I think my message is, is is gonna connect because it has to connect. [00:44:26] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I do feel also always come back to Covid, but I do feel like it has helped with human evolution and of consciousness and people like, you know, never. [00:44:41] Like before they, they're like, we're done with this spammy marketing stuff. Like the, the kind of, I call it the bullshit The word is escaping me, but, but like the trigger, you know, is likes meter. We know, we can tell that this is all fakes and that that's so, [00:45:00] so I do feel, yeah, there's this gap between consciousness that has risen and some of the, the marketing stuff that is just so outdated. [00:45:09] But yeah, like you, I totally believe in humanity and, and I be believe that people. Feel it, like you could just feel it that there's this craving for, for belonging and, and so [00:45:21] Mark: I'm just Yeah. Oh, that, I mean, you talk about measurement that is documented. I mean, it, it, it's, it's just coming at us in every, every day, in every way. [00:45:32] It's, it's all over the news here in America. And I mean, just like two weeks ago I saw this statistic that was just incredible that. Of the young people aged 18 to 24, 50 1% of them had sought medical treatment for a mental health issue. Hmm. The average for every other generation, including, you know, my generation is 24%. [00:45:59] [00:46:00] Wow. Yeah. For young people today, it's 51% and the average for every other generation is 24%. There's something really wrong here going on. Mm-hmm. And you know, look, my book is not Pollyannish saying, Hey, start a community and change the world. I'm saying, look, There's a, there's a real marketing urgency to consider new ideas like this. [00:46:26] And oh, by the way, it's, it's gonna do some, it's gonna do some good for the people in your community. [00:46:33] Sarah: Yeah. I, I really feel this more so than in other, in, in the other books that, that you come from this place of. Let go of the ego and tap into the love. That's there's some warmth, you know, even though it's a business book, I feel like there's some warmth reading this. [00:46:51] And then, yeah. And that's also the, the thing that we need. Now it's like, you know, how can you have a community that is Cold and [00:47:00] based on Eagle. Well that's not gonna work. So there definitely has to be yeah, the warmths as well. I wanna tap into also kind of the bridging it to the technology piece to, to wrap up, because it could almost be like a paradox, you know, it's like, wait, wait a minute, okay. [00:47:18] We have this problem with technology, young people, too much technology, and yet, You are talking about technology and AI and in web three in the last part of the book, so draws this picture, how do they fit together? [00:47:35] Mark: Well, first of all, thank you for reading all the way to the end of the book. [00:47:40] Sarah: That was a test, you [00:47:42] Mark: know? [00:47:42] And you know, I'll tell you some of the, some of the most interesting. Things I have in the book are at the end and, and I thought, gosh, maybe I should put this up more towards the beginning so people can make sure I make sure they see that well. So there are [00:48:00] two big issues I, I talk about at the end of the book, technological changes and sociological changes. [00:48:06] They kind of go together that. Are suggesting there are gonna be very new kinds of communities in the future, and businesses need to be waking up. Whether you have a community or you just want to tap into a community, a certain demographic of consumers, you've gotta be aware of what's going on. Number one, on the technology side. [00:48:31] We hear these mysterious words like Web three and NFTs and Metaverse, and the irony is there isn't really a good definition for any of those things. Maybe NFTs come, come closest, but you know, people have really wild, wide, varying ideas of what the Metaverse is gonna be or what Web three is going to be. [00:48:52] But when you cut through all the jargon, What you really end up with is new ways for [00:49:00] people to belong and especially young people today, are just surging into these areas. So we've gotta be aware of what's happening, what's going on there, how these communities are being created, and consider if that's one of the ways we need to be relevant. [00:49:18] On the sociological side, young people today, they want to be. Invisible. They don't wanna be found, they don't wanna be discovered. They don't wanna be criticized and bullied and and marketed to. So today, much of our marketing is dependent on social listening platforms that tap into Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook. [00:49:45] Well, guess what? Young people today, they're not there. Mm-hmm. They're not there at all. It's amazing to me. Sometimes I do guest lectures at, you know, universities. Even like people in graduate school today, they're not [00:50:00] on LinkedIn. You know, it's, it's, it's crazy. So where are they? They're on Discord, they're on maybe they're on TikTok. [00:50:10] They're on you know, communities in the Metaverse, they're on Fortnite, they're on Twitch. Guess what? Social listening platforms aren't there. The, you know, millions and millions of people are having brand conversations in places we can't see, right? So, Just like you mentioned, marketing Rebellion was a bit of a wake up call. [00:50:34] I think this book, you know, part of it is a solution and part of it is a. You know, knock on the head as well to say the world is changing in rapid and unexpected ways, and we don't have all the answers right now, but be aware of what is going on. And, and like I said, gen Z, they're not babies. They're consumers, right? [00:50:56] With growing, growing, you know, [00:51:00] economic power. So this, this is not something to put off and we really need to think about this now. Yeah. [00:51:07] Sarah: Yeah. And, and, and I do also see this theme of letting go of control, right? The, the Gen Z doesn't want control, and so they want this connections of trust with the, with the not Bitcoin. [00:51:21] The other one. The, the NFTs blockchain. Yeah, the blockchain, you know, kind of like, okay, I can trust this connection because it's decentralized and, and so all of these topics that for us right now, I. They've most markers I would assume kind of sounds like Chinese. And so they have to, really, what you're saying is basically almost, you have to have one person per department stay on top of the new stuff, right? [00:51:51] It's like, yeah, yeah. [00:51:52] Mark: Go. Yeah. I, I, I, I think, you know, if you've got that kind of luxury, I mean, Sarah Wilson is someone I feature in my book. [00:52:00] She is former Facebook, former Instagram writes for Harvard Business Review, sort of looking at Gen Z culture and Zen Gen Z marketing strategies and, and she says rather boldly in the book, she said, I think it's time I. [00:52:16] Just to find the youngest person in your marketing department and say, pay attention to this because I don't understand it. [00:52:23] Sarah: Yeah. I saw that quote and I was like, lucky me. I have two sons, 16 and 19. They tell [00:52:29] Mark: me all the insights. Well, yeah. I, I, I, I mentor my, my kids are grown, but I mentor young kids. Yeah. [00:52:36] And I mean, I'm always asking them, what are you doing? What are you seeing? Exactly. Let me, Let me watch you play Roblox. Why did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you buy that? [00:52:47] Sarah: Yeah. And all the ad blockers, just like you said, right? It's like everywhere. Yeah. [00:52:51] Mark: I wanna, I, I gotta watch my, my kids I mentor play Fortnite cuz I die every time I can't. [00:52:57] It's like, what's the use? I die [00:53:00] immediately, which makes them laugh, but, you know, so I've gotta watch them. I gotta watch them do it. Yeah. [00:53:06] Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I really appreciated this time with you, mark. I, I'm totally with you. Community is, is the way to go and I think we have a lot to learn from the communities, especially the marketers who think, you know, you just throw up a website and a pay button and then there you go. [00:53:26] You have your community. I think it's time to step back and come. Yeah. Step back from the ego and come with this humble learner approach to say, okay, what can I learn from this community? Yeah. That's the way I look at it. And it sounds like you do too. [00:53:42] Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's always delight. [00:53:46] Yeah, likewise talking to you. It's nice to find such a, I, I think we're of one mind and one heart when it comes to marketing, so it's for sure good to find. It's good to find an ally out there. [00:53:58] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you. Do you [00:54:00] mention the names of your books again and your website so people can [00:54:03] Mark: find Yeah. [00:54:03] The books we talked about today are marketing Rebellion. We didn't mention known, but you know, we, the book on personal branding I think is extremely relevant today. I think personal branding, when you get down to it can be. It's, it's everything in, in many ways when it comes to our careers and marketing. [00:54:23] And then my new book is called Belonging to the Brand. My Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy and you can find my blog, my podcast, my books on my social media connections@businessesgrow.com. [00:54:39] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. Mark, what are you grateful for today or [00:54:43] Mark: this week? Right now. [00:54:46] Well, I'm grateful for so much. I'm grateful for, for my, for my health right now. I've, I've gone through a, a, a week of of of illness here and I'm I'm grateful for we talked a lot about community, but I'm also really grateful [00:55:00] for the, your audience, my audience, the out there that, that supports me in so many ways. [00:55:05] That's, that's just incredibly humbling just to be interested in my work and support my work. So I'm grateful for, for you and your listeners today. Thank you, [00:55:15] Sarah: mark. Always a pleasure to hang out. [00:55:18] Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:27] Sarah: Whether you are a community member or are thinking about creating your own community, I hope you found this episode with Mark. Really, really helpful. I know I did find out more about Mark and his work@businessesgrow.com and check out my two favorite books from him, marketing Rebellion. And belonging to the brand. [00:55:49] You can find them on his website or directly at Amazon. And if you're looking for a community of like-minded humane marketers, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:56:00] You can find out more at Humane. Dot Marketing slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash H 1 64, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business. [00:56:19] Manifesto and the free, gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. [00:56:43] Speak soon.[00:57:00]

In this unique episode. Amanda Russell and Mark Schaefer offer an exclusive look at the extraordinary marketing challenges in the field of marketing. In a world where taste, scarcity, and exclusivity rule, the foundations of mass marketing are meaningless. How do luxury brands connect in a personal way that builds community? There are important lessons here for any marketer! Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN" and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Amanda Russell is the founder of the Global Center for Influence (C4In), launching (2023) at the University of Texas at Austin with a mission to help brands & people learn how to position themselves and their companies for success, bridging the gap between academia and practice. Amanda's mission is to enhance how we do 'higher education. Former Olympic-level athlete, Founder-to-sale Entrepreneur and Marketing Consultant who still loves the brain gymnastics of helping people and companies become more influential among their desired audience. Professor, Author "The Influencer Code", Speaker, Board Member and Director of C4In

Should we bring our "whole self" to the marketing profession? A powerful sociological trend is changing norms and expectations of our customers and employees. What are the advantages and disadvantages of vulnerability and self-disclosure? Mark Schaefer and Keith Jennings weigh in! Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "Belonging to the Brand" and "Marketing Rebellion." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Keith Jennings is an executive and writer who equips professionals to serve with values, generosity, and social impact.He serves as vice president of community impact with Jackson Healthcare. Connect with him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithjennings/. 

Mark Schaefer and social media marketing expert Denis Yu dive into the most important trends including the true value of the blue check mark, the most powerful platforms right now, the future of TikTok, and the truth behind Facebook's foray into the metaverse. You'll also hear some hair-raising stories about information and privacy!  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "Marketing Rebellion" and "Belonging to the Brand." His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Dennis Yu is on a mission to create a million jobs by training up international workers to serve American companies. Former search engine engineer who has spent a billion dollars on ads. Best-selling author and speaker.

Sara Wilson has been studying Gen Z with a detective-like intensity and her new research report gives us a guide for connecting with them. We talk about their hideouts, their curious aesthetic, the role of "faux-stalgia," the importance of the absurd, and much more. Your head will spin with new insights and ideas in this conversation with Mark Schaefer.  Mark Schaefer is a strategy consultant, college educator, keynote speaker and the author of 10 books including "KNOWN" and "Marketing Rebellion," and “Belonging to the Brand.” His annual marketing retreat is The Uprising. Sara Wilson is a journalist-turned-social-marketer (former Facebook & Instagram) who works with brands, publications, and platforms like YouTube, Nike, Bumble, the New York Times and many others find, engage and grow obsessive communities across digital channels through her consultancy SW Projects. Sara also writes frequently on the subject of digital marketing trends; she coined the term "digital campfires" in the Harvard Business Review to describe the types of spaces where young audiences are gathering online today, and often speaks and leads workshops on this and other topics related to social innovation, web3, and Gen Z consumption trends to companies around the world such as Microsoft and McKinsey.

On this episode of the Outdoor Biz Podcast, I sit down with Actual Outdoors Founder, Pro Photographer, and Podcaster John Holdmeier. John is a lifelong outdoor enthusiast and a fantastic photographer. He loves getting outside, more often than not on a river and you can hear him on the Nature Untold Podcast. Facebook Twitter Instagram The Outdoor Biz Podcast Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share! Sign up for my Newsletter HERE.  I'd love to hear your feedback about the show! You can contact me here: email: rick@theoutdoorbizpodcast.com or leave me a message on Speakpipe! Brought to you by: Wolfgang Man and Beast Show Notes So let's start off with how you fell in love with the outdoors. How'd that come about? Yeah. So, it was really early on for me. I, consider myself super lucky in that my family was into the outdoors. And so my dad and my mom, to enough of an extent that she would come do stuff with us but it wasn't her first choice always. Older sister, and then I have a younger brother as well, but all of us were getting outside since my first memory. That looked like the normal travel vacation, hiking kind of stuff, early on, but also a lot of float trips going down to Southern Missouri. What inspired you to commit to an outdoor lifestyle, or did you learn that through becoming a river guide? It was definitely those experiences as a kid. My dad was into fly fishing pretty early on, and so I was fly fishing when I was really little as well. And that was the thing. I was so lucky to have all that, all the gear, and all the access to be able to do that. But yeah, it was those early experiences and really what made me feel like there was nothing else in life where I like couldn't wait to go do it. You weren't burning to be an engineer or an architect? Not even in the slightest at all. And it was different back then because this is probably nine late nineties that we're talking about here. I was lucky because my older sister worked at a gear shop and, she got to go to OR. I think it was in Salt Lake when she was going and she would always come back with these stories of what Outdoor Retailer was like and all the free gear that she would bring back and stuff. And that kind of gave me a little bit of a sense of oh, there, okay, so there's a bigger industry here. So did you work in the same shop? I did a little bit. So I was still closer to St. Louis and our local shop there is The Alpine Shop. That's where I started out. The crazy thing about my hometown in our area here in the greater St. Louis area in Missouri is that we have a pretty rich history of Outdoor industry companies being located here, and even manufacturing. Back in the day, Kelty and American Rec were based here. So did you just walk in and apply for a job? Were you must have known somebody. Yeah. it's a small town, right? I knew several people that had worked out there. And I actually just saw that they posted a position for a product development role. I think Facebook was around at the time and I think they posted it on Facebook. And so I reached out and said, Hey, I'd love to talk about this. Cuz at that point, I had 10-plus years of retail knowledge. And that's really the best kind of knowledge you can get from a product standpoint is figuring out how to learn about all that gear. It sounds like you enjoyed your time with HKD Global. Tell our listeners about your role there and about that. I'd say, I've had several of these experiences, in my development through my career journey where they've just been massively transformative. Starting that job at Alps was a really transformative thing to see how all the production and all that happened. And then HKD, my role there, they do OEM manufacturing. So we made, I think at one point, if not still, I'm not sure, it was something like 70 of the camping tents that you can buy in stores came out of our factories. My role there was a product manager and also a brand manager as we started trying to launch some of our own kinds of internal brands. It's a Korean-owned company and the headquarters are in Hong Kong. and the manufacturing was in Bangladesh, and then our office was in the U.S. We were a really small team in the US of, I wanna say probably six of us at the time. and so yeah, they needed somebody who understood the product and could design the product and, so it was, I say product manager, but it was really like product manager slash tent designers slash market marketing slash Yeah, six hats. So then in 2022, you launched Actual Outdoors, a complete shift from product into photography. What was the catalyst for that? Yeah. So you know, I have, like you just mentioned, I had been making products and on the product side of things for a really long time. so there was a little bit of a burnout feeling starting with that. you get to a point where you're looking at everything that you're doing and going, there are so many brands making so many products. Yeah. It's too much similar. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I really wanted to shift gears again because I keep having these moments where I see something new and interesting that I wanna learn more about and photography and I would say marketing in general and video and, the visual side of things like brand identity design and logos and colorways and all that. That was always like, just the most interesting thing to me, even though I had not. Done as much of a deep dive in my career into those things. And so, I started taking photos back in my H K D days because we needed photos for packaging. Oh, So, it was like we'd make these tents for Walmart or Cole or whoever it was, and they're like, Hey, we need a good photo of this And then we started looking around trying to figure out how much it cost to get a really nice photo. And then it's oh wow, okay. John, can you take a picture? And I was like, I wanna learn how to do this, so. Oh, cool. yeah, so I started there and then I would say like the creative process of that photography and video stuff, nothing has captured me like that, has since. And you also host the Nature Untold Podcast originally founded by Emily Holland. How did that come about? Shout out to Emily. She's one of the original outdoor podcasters I believe as well. I wanna say it's probably about a year ago now that I took over hosting. We're a show about sobriety and recovery, of all types of recovery in how those things interact with the outdoor industry and the outdoor space. And so my personal journey, I have over eight years of sobriety, so I went. to a rehab facility back in my Alps days. And, quit drinking. And so it was much needed. And by far the best thing that I've ever done for myself in my life. Yeah. it's made such a huge difference. And, I'm always trying to look for ways to be a part of and stay a part of that sobriety and, Sober curious, recovery community. And, Emily had also recently quit drinking. And she is a podcast person and she wanted to start this podcast about sobriety in the outdoors. And so she started it and I came on as a guest. And then, she did like connect one and connect two, and then she had, just a lot of things get busy in within her life. And, she's also doing her own new career thing after leaving a corporate gig. And so things started getting pretty busy on her end. And, she asked if I would be interested in hosting and I was like, absolutely I would love to do that. And so I've been hosting for about a year now and, So without giving away any state secrets, any projects, or future projects you're working on, you can talk about? Yeah, we've got a few things. We've been going for about a year now with Actual Outdoors and, we've done a few really cool projects this year so far. One that I would love to give a shout-out to is our project with Illumine. They partner with nonprofits and they sell apparel that has custom artwork for the nonprofit and then a pretty sizable percentage of the proceeds goes to whoever their partner is for that month. And so we did some branding, with them, brand identity and my partner Lindsay is the other half of actual outdoors, and she's a graphic designer by trade. And so, that's another big part of what we do. The coolest thing I'm looking forward to this next year, we're just getting into getting some of this stuff out to the public, is, we're working with a good friend of mine, Chev Dixon, who's based up in Yonkers, New York. He's just the past, eight years or so, he's been doing this amazing work in Yonkers where he's getting people from the community out on the water, on the Hudson River right there in New York. You can see the bridges in the city in the background. It's pretty wild. Yeah. And, they're getting tons of people out on the water. And so we've, we've helped with his website. That will go live soon. Sounds like you get outdoors a bunch, which outdoor activities do you participate in? Probably all of them. Yeah, it's a little bit of all of 'em. As I said, was super lucky growing up. We got to do everything, with my dad taking us outside, so I've dabbled in almost, every outdoor activity, but really the two biggest that stuck for me, anything around, like free-flowing water, clear water, rivers, so, whitewater kayaking and then fly fishing are the two biggest ones. Do you have any suggestions or advice for folks wanting to get into the outdoor biz? Yeah, absolutely. I would say, however, you can fit in or get into a spot, do it. Go for it. If it's retail if it's as an assistant if it's as some sort of like social media management, whatever, the role that you can prepare yourself to get into it, go for it. And don't be thinking like, I have to wait and wait and then get this amazing engineer dream job that I want, or whatever it is, as soon as you can get your foot in the door, do it. What's your favorite piece of outdoor gear under a hundred dollars? So I had to think long and hard about this. There are a lot of 'em out there and I use everything so much. I use it all the time and then it goes back with me through my history. The Sawyer Squeeze. Do you read a lot, or have any favorite books? I do read quite a bit and it's hard to narrow down what books have really made a big deal to me, but, going back, I loved reading everything from Ed Abbey. but also, I would say Ego is the Enemy is one of the biggest books, it changed my trajectory. And then, another one that I really loved, I read this past year was Subtract, and its subtitle is, the Untapped Science of Less. And to go along with that one, Essentialism by Greg McKeown. Stolen Focus is another one that I read this year by Johan Harry. And then the last one, I promise. But if you're in marketing at all, Mark Schaffer has several good books. Marketing Rebellion is a really good starting point for him. As we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to say to our listeners? I'd say the biggest thing for me is I'd really love it if people could go check out what we're doing with Actual Outdoors. That's the biggest thing I'm trying to get to grow this year. And, we've been really learning a ton and growing in small steps and trying to do everything the right way for trying to get more people outside and make the outdoors more approachable and more accepting and more inviting. So, I would say that people can check that out and check out our website and reach out if they have any questions. That would be the big ask I  have. And the website is actualoutdoors.com. Actual Outdoors Instagram John Holdmeier Instagram for any, nature untold questions or sobriety questions or anything, I'm always down to talk to people and have conversations around that, there as well.