On the Brink with Andi Simon

Are you ready to sell your business? It may be time to pass your family firm to the next generation. What do you do? Where do you begin? How can you ensure that you follow your values and transition your business with purpose, kindness, and profit? Maybe it is time to meet Erika Baez Grimes. What is the Human Side of Business Transitions? In this compelling episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we delve into the human side of business transitions with Erika Baez Grimes, a seasoned business broker, M&A specialist, and purpose-driven entrepreneur. Erika's extensive experience as a Senior Certified Mergers and Acquisitions Professional with Transworld Business Advisors, and as the founder of The BPH Group and The Buyer's Agency, makes her a trusted voice in the industry. Her mission is clear: to help people do good deals with good people—transactions rooted in legacy, emotion, and values, not just numbers. Erika and I first connected at the Entrepreneurs with Companies of Purpose event, and I knew she had a story to share right away. In this episode, she opens up about her journey from helping her grandfather run fashion boutiques in Orlando to rising as a respected voice in the business brokerage industry. Her early exposure to entrepreneurship gave her a lifelong passion for business and sales, a path she blended with her experience in banking and corporate leadership. Some Practical Advice is Essential to Transition your Business Throughout our conversation, Erika offers practical advice—and heartfelt wisdom—for business owners contemplating an exit and aspiring buyers looking to acquire a company. She discusses the "silver tsunami" of baby boomers preparing to retire, legacy businesses' emotional and strategic complexity, and the rising interest among women in acquiring established enterprises. Erika shares three essential things every seller should do before they decide to sell: Start the conversation early—if you're considering selling, it's time to talk. Work yourself out of the business—the more your business can run without you, the higher its value. Keep clean, transparent financials—they are the real story buyers will trust (or not). You might like to watch our podcast on YouTube here: But Erika also goes deeper. She highlights how business owners often feel lost after they exit. Their identity has been deeply tied to their company, and the vacuum that follows can be disorienting. That's why Erika emphasizes the importance of planning for the transaction and the transition. Who will you be when you're no longer the CEO? How Does Culture Share Your Succession Plan? We also explore how culture shapes succession planning, particularly in family firms. Erika works closely with multigenerational businesses and understands the delicate dynamics between personal relationships, employee loyalty, and strategic vision. She emphasizes the importance of finding the right buyer—someone aligned not only with the financials but also with the founder's legacy and values. Avoid Buyers Remorse For buyers, Erika offers clear guidance: prepare before you pursue. Get financing lined up, know your strengths, and approach the opportunity with transparency and intention. Sellers want to know their business will be in good hands. And increasingly, those hands belong to women—smart, driven, and ready to lead. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur looking to exit or someone considering buying their first business, Erika's insights are honest, helpful, and deeply human. This episode is a masterclass in purpose-driven dealmaking and the art of helping others transition from one chapter to the next with clarity, care, and confidence. Key Takeaways: Why the timing of a business sale is both emotional and strategic What makes a business attractive to buyers—and how to increase your value How Erika helps bridge the gap between a seller's legacy and a buyer's vision The growing role of women in M&A and business acquisition Why coaching and self-discovery are vital post-exit tools for sellers You'll leave this conversation with a clearer understanding of the M&A process, the questions you should be asking (whether buying or selling), and a renewed appreciation for the human side of business transitions. Contact Erika Baez Grimes:

Imagine a ten-year-old girl in New Zealand watching an army commercial and declaring, "That's what I want to be". This simple declaration set Dr. Ellen Joan Ford on a transformative journey, a journey of leadership, service, and a new way of thinking about work. Her story is not just inspiring, it's a call to action for all of us. Women are asking for flexible work for working parents. Our businesses want the talented women to be able to focus on both their families and their workday. It is a time for changing how businesses treat women. In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ellen Joan Ford—a leadership expert, military veteran, and the creator of the global #WorkSchoolHours movement. Ellen joins us from New Zealand with a deeply timely and universally relevant message: the structure of work must evolve to meet the real needs of modern families. From the New Zealand Army to Leadership Thought Leader  Ellen's story begins with a decade of service in the New Zealand Army, where she worked as an engineer officer and led soldiers at home and abroad. Her military career taught her discipline, courage, and—most importantly—how to lead. As she transitioned out of the military, she pursued an MBA and later a PhD in leadership, driven not by ambition but by a personal challenge. Her doctoral research focused on the leadership experiences of women in the military, surfacing both empowering stories and persistent gender-based inequities. Rather than stop with research, Ellen took action, advising the Chief of the New Zealand Army and presenting her findings to senior leadership. Her goal? To make the Army more inclusive—not just for women, but for everyone. The Birth of #WorkSchoolHours You will enjoy watching Ellen's podcast on YouTube here: What began as academic research soon became a mission when Ellen was bombarded with personal stories from working parents. Over 500 parents shared their frustrations: being forced out of the workforce due to caregiving, missing irreplaceable moments in their children's lives, or being underpaid for the same responsibilities simply because they worked "part-time." One night, while breastfeeding her youngest son, Ellen had a powerful realization: "I don't want this for me or anyone else." This was the birth of the #WorkSchoolHours movement, a movement that is not just a response to a problem, but a call to action for immediate change. What Is the #WorkSchoolHours Movement? #WorkSchoolHours is not about working less—it's about working smarter. It's a flexible work philosophy that allows employees, especially parents, to align their work schedules with family commitments without compromising performance or pay. Ellen explains, "We live in a world where we're expected to parent like we don't have a job and work like we don't have children. That's not sustainable." Through her model of Belonging, Autonomy, and Purpose (BAP), Ellen offers a new way to lead and manage teams. Inspired by both anthropology and leadership science, BAP emphasizes: Belonging: Creating a work culture that acknowledges employees as whole people. Autonomy: Giving individuals the flexibility to manage their time and deliver results. Purpose: Helping people connect their work to something meaningful. Ellen argues that when leaders focus on these elements, they can reduce burnout, increase productivity, and retain top talent—especially working mothers and caregivers. This not only benefits the employees but also the businesses, as it leads to a more engaged workforce and better business outcomes. Her Book: A Practical Guide to Revolutionizing Work In her new book, #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces, and the World, Ellen doesn't just talk about change, she provides a practical roadmap for it. With three powerful sections—what's Wrong, what's Possible, and How to Fix It—this book is more than a manifesto. It's a toolkit for those ready to revolutionize their workplaces. The book includes real-world examples from industries ranging from logistics to healthcare to manufacturing and provides actionable strategies for leaders who want to focus on outcomes rather than hours. Even more exciting? Ellen is giving away her e-book for free on her website, ellenjoanford.com, using the code today. This is just one small way she's walking the talk about accessible change. Why This Matters Now In the U.S., over 50% of the workforce is women, and over 40% of children are born to single mothers. Yet, most workplaces still operate on models developed over a century ago. As artificial intelligence and other technologies transform our professional landscape, isn't it time to rethink the outdated 9-to-5? Dr. Ford's call to action is both compassionate and commercially wise. As she says, "Happy people deliver better results." Her message is clear: when we redesign work around the realities of human life, everyone wins—parents, companies, and communities. Listen, Learn, and Lead Differently If you're a business leader, HR professional, or just someone juggling the demands of work and home, this episode will leave you inspired—and equipped—to take action. As a corporate anthropologist, I believe change happens through small wins. Ellen Ford shows us how powerful those wins can be when rooted in purpose. More to Enjoy 433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design 430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders? What Are You Doing to Adapt in Times of Uncomfortable Change Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books:  Learn more about these books here: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I'm thrilled to welcome back Dr. Karl Hebenstreit—organizational psychologist, executive coach, speaker, and now the author of a powerful new book: Explicit Expectations: The Essential Guide and Toolkit of Management Fundamentals. Karl's insights will be eye-opening if you're a leader, manager, or anyone asked to take charge without much training or clarity. His central message? Everything is a conversation—and when expectations aren't explicit, confusion and conflict inevitably follow. From Enneagram to Explicit Expectations You may remember Karl from a previous episode where he shared his passion for the Enneagram. That framework, which focuses on motivation rather than just behavior, changed how he saw people and how they relate to one another. In today's conversation, we explored how that same thinking inspired his latest work—helping new managers step into their roles with clarity, confidence, and connection. Karl's journey into HR and organizational psychology wasn't always linear. Early in his career, he realized that promoting high-performing individuals into management often left them unprepared for what came next. "We promote people and assume they'll figure it out," Karl says. "But without guidance, they're left adrift." That recognition became the seed for his new book. Why We Get Expectations Wrong Karl shared a striking observation: most people operate from their internal "golden rule," assuming that others want to be treated like they are. But what if that isn't true? This insight draws from both the Enneagram and Karl's own coaching experience. Managers often expect others to intuit their expectations, only to be disappointed when those assumptions don't lead to desired outcomes. The solution? Make expectations explicit—hence the book's title. Explicit Expectations is more than just a how-to guide. It's a toolkit grounded in real organizational challenges, especially for newly promoted managers without formal training. It offers a structured way to define goals, conduct one-on-ones, manage performance, lead team meetings, and even handle terminations—all through the lens of clear communication and alignment. From Confusion to Clarity: Building a Living Agreement At the heart of Karl's approach is the Explicit Expectations Engagement and Alignment Guide—a tool that allows managers and employees to co-create clarity. It's not a static checklist but a living document that evolves as business conditions and roles change. It helps each party articulate their motivations, communication styles, and priorities. This idea resonated deeply with me. As a corporate anthropologist, I've seen firsthand how ambiguity breeds misalignment and disengagement. Karl's guide gives teams a shared language and mutual understanding, vital to navigating change—something we know is constant in today's fast-moving workplaces. A Simple but Powerful Question One of my favorite takeaways from our conversation is Karl's approach to team dynamics: "Just ask." Ask how someone prefers to receive feedback, what motivates them, and how they want to resolve conflict. These conversations don't require a PhD in psychology—just curiosity, empathy, and a willingness to listen. Karl emphasized that even without formal Enneagram training, managers can learn to tailor their approach by simply being explicit in conversations. The platinum rule—treating others as they want to be treated—starts with understanding what that looks like for each person. Embracing Differences to Build Stronger Teams Karl and I also explored how embracing cognitive and motivational diversity leads to stronger, more customer-centered organizations. He shared how teams begin to see the value of different Enneagram types and break free from the idea that there's one "right" way to lead or be led. This is especially relevant today as businesses navigate generational differences, hybrid work, and rapid digital transformation. As Karl puts it, "Your team is a microcosm of your customers." Understanding internal diversity helps you connect more authentically with external markets. You may prefer to watch our podcast video on YouTube here: Practical Tools for Real Change Karl's work is deeply relevant whether you're leading a startup or a legacy institution. His book offers practical tools—strategic planning, onboarding, feedback, coaching, accountability, DEI practices—all through the lens of clarity and alignment. These tools are not just about being a better manager; they're about empowering you to be a better communicator and collaborator, capable of driving real change in your organization. And yes, Karl now has an AI-powered training twin! His methods are available in person, virtually, or through AI-enabled programs. As I often say, the future is here—and Karl is helping us manage it better. His methods have the potential to inspire and motivate change, transforming the way we manage and communicate. Key Takeaways from the Episode: Unspoken expectations are a recipe for misalignment. Managers must articulate their needs and ask about others' preferences—don't assume. The Golden Rule is outdated—aim for the Platinum Rule. Understand others' motivations and communication styles to treat them the way you want to be treated. Build a living agreement. Use Karl's Engagement and Alignment Guide to create and revisit shared expectations as goals and roles evolve. You can find Explicit Expectations on Amazon or at your favorite bookstore. To learn more about Karl and his work, visit www.performandfunction.com or connect with him on LinkedIn at Karl Hebenstreit. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe to On the Brink with Andi Simon, leave a review, and share it with a colleague. And remember: the words you use to create the world you live in. Let's make those words clear, kind, and explicitly aligned. By committing to these principles, we can all contribute to a more engaged and harmonious work environment. Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

This podcast is about an amazing woman and her journey from Wall Street to Purpose-Driven Leadership. Meet India Gary-Martin's and listen to her amazing journey to Chair the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the great pleasure of speaking with India Gary Martin—an accomplished global executive, entrepreneur, and now the new Chair of the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). India's story is more than a professional journey—it's an inspiring narrative about opportunity, resilience, and leadership rooted in purpose. A Global Journey Rooted in Advocacy India began her career with ambitions far from Wall Street—initially pursuing drama at Spelman College, an all-women's institution that helped shape her lifelong commitment to advancing women. A pivot to business led her to Wall Street, where she spent nearly 25 years rising through the ranks and across borders, holding CEO and CTO roles in major financial institutions. Her global career took her to London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, and Hong Kong, all while raising a family and nurturing a growing passion for justice and equity. Through it all, India remained grounded in one core belief: opportunity emerges when you stay open to change. Her career was not meticulously planned but rather built through taking chances—ones that would later translate into entrepreneurial ventures and global leadership roles. From Banking to Beauty: The Entrepreneurial Chapter India's foray into entrepreneurship was sparked not only by her desire to chart her own path but by a wake-up call. After returning from a business trip, her young daughter barely recognized her. It was a moment of reckoning—and renewal. What followed was a bold leap: the launch of a green nail polish line that grew from two retail shops in London to 300 stores across Europe and the Middle East, including Harvey Nichols and Space NK. But success is never linear. Brexit disrupted the business, scaring off investors and forcing India to shut it down. “It was the hardest thing I've ever done,” she told me, “but I learned how to pivot, and that failure isn't failure—it's just learning.” Her next chapter returned her to her roots in leadership. With Leadership for Execs and Lucent Learning, India created scalable coaching and leadership development platforms for companies, governments, and nonprofits. She also launched Act Three, a community designed to support women in midlife transition. Each venture reflects her holistic vision of leadership: adaptive, inclusive, and deeply human. Carrying Forward a Vision: Honoring Edie Fraser The Women Business Collaborative (WBC), which India now chairs, was founded by the remarkable Edie Fraser, a visionary leader in her own right. Edie had a bold and clear mission: to accelerate progress for women in business by uniting the efforts of organizations, corporations, and individuals under a single collaborative umbrella. She recognized that too many were working in silos—fighting the same battles for equal pay, position, and power. Edie's vision was both simple and powerful: we can go farther, faster, together. Her leadership transformed a concept into a movement, building a platform that now connects over 80 partner organizations, dozens of corporate champions, and countless advocates committed to equity. India Gary Martin steps into this legacy with both reverence and readiness, taking WBC into its next chapter of impact. You will enjoy watching our podcast with India here: Why WBC, Why Now? India's appointment as Chair of the Women Business Collaborative couldn't have come at a more important time. As she told me, “WBC has a tremendous opportunity right now to be a beacon for women in business. It's not just about convening—it's about shaping the future.” With over 80 partner organizations, sponsors, and donors, WBC stands at the forefront of driving change. India brings to it not just experience, but a deeply reflective, philosophical approach to leadership. She believes that collaboration doesn't mean compromising your mission—it means amplifying what unites us. “I don't believe in pushing the boulder uphill,” she said. “We do this with ease because it's who we are. It's how we operate.” Leading by Redesigning the Container One of the most profound insights India shared during our conversation was about the importance of culture in shaping behavior. “People behave as the container creates,” she explained. Rather than focusing on fixing people, she argues, organizations should focus on fixing the environment in which they operate. This anthropological lens is close to my heart. Culture isn't changed with a program or a policy—it's transformed through trust, relationships, and the daily experiences that shape how people feel and behave. As India noted, work has become transactional. We must bring it back to being relational. A Call to Community As we wrapped up our conversation, India left listeners with three powerful takeaways: You are not alone. Find your tribe. WBC is one of them. Opportunity is everywhere. Even the stormiest moments will pass—every storm runs out of rain. We are better together. None of the changes we seek can happen in isolation. Collaboration is not a strategy—it's a necessity. India also shared her excitement for the upcoming Women's Capital Summit in New York City on May 21–22. This event is all about connecting women founders with funders—and building the future of shared success. “Founders and funders, please come out,” she urged. “This is a real moment for us.” Final Thoughts India Gary Martin's story reminds us that the path to leadership isn't always straight—but it is always full of opportunity if we stay open. She embodies the power of living with purpose, leading with vision, and building together. To learn more, listen to the full podcast on On the Brink with Andi Simon and be sure to check out WBC's work and the Women's Capital Summit. Let's go further, faster—together. Other podcasts you will enjoy: 432: Gloria Bohan: From School Teacher to Travel Titan 419: Jennifer Leslie: Transform your Business with Self Awareness 405: How Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan Are Revolutionizing Period Care Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our Medium publications (come friend us) Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon,PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In today's rapidly evolving workplace, the disconnect between people and their work has never been more apparent—or more urgent to address. That's why I was thrilled to welcome Brent Kedzierski, a renowned expert on the future of work and human-centric design, to the On the Brink podcast. Brent's mission is clear: to improve the human condition at work, one experience at a time. With more than 35 years of experience—including as Head of Learning Strategy and Innovation at Shell—he brings unique insight into why digital transformation fails, how people resist change, and what organizations can do to rebuild engagement and purpose. The Future Is Human—And Already Here As William Gibson reminds us, “The future is already here. It's just not widely distributed yet.” Brent feels the same way. People often assume technology is the answer to productivity and innovation—but without human adoption and emotional investment, it falls flat. In fact, 90% of digital transformation initiatives fail, not because the technology is flawed, but because people aren't prepared to embrace it. Why? Because humans are fallible, social, adaptable—and resistant to change without a clear purpose. It is that clear purpose that seems to be the hardest thing to get agreement on. Without focus, people wander all over, creating meaning when there is none. Understanding the Human Condition at Work Brent grew up in Pittsburgh, a city built on industry. Watching his family work in steel mills, he developed a fascination with why people work the way they do. That question still drives him. At Shell, he led global initiatives using simulations, virtual reality, and HR analytics to optimize human performance—but found again and again that vendors focused on tech, not people. In every successful transformation, Brent starts by understanding the human experience. As he puts it, people need: A reason to believe change is useful Tools that are easy to use Proof that change offers a relative advantage Compatibility with their current reality These four principles make up 80% of successful adoption. Engagement only happens when people see, feel, and believe that something will make their work—and their lives—better. And, trust me, if they don't “see it” they have no idea what you are talking about. What Is Human-Centric Work Design? Human-centricity isn't new. Since the 1950s, design theorists have argued for putting people at the center of systems. But Brent takes this further by introducing the Human Experience Model, which maps out the full work journey: Expectations – What workers anticipate about a task. Experience – What actually happens when they perform it. Adaptation – How they adjust in real time. Reflection – What they take away and how it shapes future behavior. When organizations ignore this model, they create what Brent calls “experience debt”—inefficiencies, stress, and disengagement that build up over time. As Brent said, “People only change when they see the value and feel a sense of urgency. Without that, even the best-designed systems fall apart.” Health, Wellness, and the Cost of Disconnected Work The toll of misaligned work isn't just emotional—it's physical and economic. Brent notes that 70% of all primary care visits today are stress-related. Poor workplace design contributes to chronic conditions, burnout, and even work-related suicide. He reminds us: “Contented cows give better milk”—in other words, healthy, supported humans produce better outcomes. Organizations that invest in worker wellness—clear communication, psychological safety, autonomy, and purpose—see higher engagement and productivity. And they reduce the enormous costs of turnover, illness, and missed opportunities. Watch the video of our podcast here. Lessons from the Field Brent shared powerful case studies, including one at Shell where digital procedures on iPads replaced outdated paper manuals. Initially resisted by veteran operators, the new system became a hit—not because it was faster, but because it gave workers a voice. Their field notes were finally visible to others, prompting action. In another project, avatars in a virtual training module used thoughtful communication techniques. The surprising feedback from Gen Z trainees? “I wish my supervisor talked to me like the avatar does.” What Comes Next? As we wrapped, Brent offered a teaser: the rise of AI and the flood of data pose a new challenge. By 2026, 90% of online content is expected to be AI-generated. Yet 80% of the data companies create today is never used again—a growing source of digital waste. To navigate this future, we must design systems that balance tech innovation with human needs. Brent calls this the move from Industry 4.0 to Industry 5.0—where technology elevates, not replaces, people. The Takeaway: See, Feel, Think—Then Change As a corporate anthropologist, I urge clients to change only after seeing what's going on and feeling how it impacts people. Brent's insights reinforce that truth: transformation isn't about adopting the newest tool. It's about designing work that empowers humans to thrive. Let's rethink what work really is. Not a place, not a task, but a shared human experience. Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

How you might ask, did Gloria Bohan transition from being a Schoolteacher to an amazing Travel Titan. Welcome to a special episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we spotlight remarkable women entrepreneurs in our series, Wisdom of Women Entrepreneurs with Purpose: Hear Their Voices. I'm thrilled to kick off this journey with Gloria Bohan, a true trailblazer in the travel industry and the visionary founder of Omega World Travel. Starting with Passion, Building with Purpose Gloria's story is nothing short of inspiring. In 1972, she was a schoolteacher with no business experience, let alone a background in travel. She had a passion for cruising and a desire to pay one employee. From those humble beginnings, she built a global travel management company that now books over $1 billion in annual sales. "I didn't have a grand vision," Gloria recalls. "I just wanted to survive. But I kept doing the things I needed to do—and opportunities began to evolve." This unexpected success is a testament to the power of determination and adaptability. Lessons from a Mentor and the Power of Relationships A turning point in Gloria's journey came through mentorship. A seasoned woman in the travel industry took Gloria under her wing, staying with her for six months to train her and guide her through the nuances of the business. "She was so determined," Gloria said, recalling how her mentor—even in a slightly askew gray wig—won customers through grit and charm. "Being around people like her helped me grow into the leader I became." This hands-on mentorship helped Gloria understand that great businesses are built not just on processes but on relationships—both with customers and employees. "People are watching you," she explains. "You must lead by example, be honest with yourself, and stay true to your values." If you want to watch our video, click here: Growing with the Industry, Innovating Through Change Over five decades, Gloria's company has grown by continuously adapting to change—from the deregulation of the airline industry in the late '70s to the rise of PCs and today's digital and post-pandemic travel landscape. "I didn't plan it," she says. "But I kept my eyes open. I stayed curious. When new opportunities came—whether it was bidding on government contracts or adopting emerging tech—I took them." That entrepreneurial spirit remains at the heart of Omega World Travel. Gloria believes that passion must be paired with constant learning and evolution. "No company can just be what they were," she emphasizes. "You must modernize, but never lose the values that made you strong." Success with Significance: Building a Business That Gives Back Gloria champions purpose more than anything. For her, success isn't just about profits—it's about people, community, and creating meaningful impact. Her commitment to a purpose-driven business model is not only inspiring but also a powerful reminder of the potential for businesses to make a positive difference in the world. "We're not in business just to be profitable," she says. "If we don't have buy-in from our people, we don't have purpose." Gloria ensures that her company gives back, from mentoring young talent to participating in community efforts like Junior Achievement and Habitat for Humanity. For instance, we have a program where our employees volunteer at local schools to teach students about the travel industry. Her team gets involved, learns, grows, and contributes—building a culture of purpose that transcends the office. The Entrepreneurial Spirit in All of Us As our conversation ended, Gloria reminded listeners that entrepreneurship isn't just about owning a business—it's a mindset. "Big companies need intrapreneurs," she says. They need people with ideas, creativity, and passion who bring innovation to everything they do. Whether you're starting your own venture or shaping change within a larger organization, Gloria's journey is a masterclass in how purpose and perseverance can take you from the brink to beyond. Final Thoughts Gloria Bohan's story is a beacon for women entrepreneurs and leaders everywhere. It reminds us that significance can—and should—go hand in hand with success. As we continue this series with women like Gloria, we hope their stories help you reframe your own. We hope these stories help you reframe your own. Let's change the story—together. To learn more about Gloria Bohan: Gloria's Profile:linkedin.com/in/gloria-bohan-07773a14 Websites owt.net (Company) owt.net/travelfaxx/ (Blog) facebook.com/omegaworldtravel?ref=search&sid=100000522586195.4089387147..1  Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books:  Learn more about them here Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn        

What if your face could reveal your deepest emotional blocks? What if your burnout, self-doubt, or imposter syndrome were not flaws—but signals calling you back to your truest self? In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with the remarkable Tammy Cho, a self-love and energy leadership coach based in British Columbia. Tammy is not just a coach—she's a healer, a mentor, and a guide who helps leaders and entrepreneurs reconnect with their authentic selves. Using a unique combination of face and body analysis, psychosomatic therapy, human design, and NLP, Tammy helps people understand the deeper emotional and spiritual patterns shaping their lives. From Burnout to Breakthrough Tammy's journey began as a nurse and patient care leader in one of Canada's largest hospitals. She spent 20 years in healthcare before burning out so severely that she landed in the ER—chest pains, numbness, and a terrifying sense of disconnect. But the real wake-up call came later. After the birth of her daughter, Tammy realized she couldn't feel joy. Watching her baby hit a dangling toy for the first time left her numb. It took a visiting nurse to point out what Tammy couldn't see: she wasn't bonding with her child. This emotional void forced her to confront a lifelong pattern of emotional abandonment—beginning with being left by her mother at just 20 days old. This became the catalyst for deep personal transformation. Tammy dove into therapy, personal development, NLP, and energy healing. Despite financial success, she still felt unfulfilled. It wasn't until she discovered psychosomatic therapy—a powerful approach that integrates body, mind, heart, and soul—that true healing began. If you enjoy watching the video, click here on YouTube Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I am joined by Dr. Chris Fuzie, Ed. D, leadership expert and author of the thought-provoking new book Liminal Space: Reshaping Leadership and Followership. Together, we explore how leadership is evolving and how traditional distinctions between "leader" and "follower" no longer apply in dynamic, modern organizations. Dr. Fuzie shares insights from his 28-year career in law enforcement and his academic journey in organizational leadership. Dr. Fuzie is a seasoned leader, educator, and consultant with a passion for transforming organizations through innovative leadership practices. He introduces the concept of liminal space—a transformative, in-between zone where individuals often occupy roles of both leader and follower simultaneously. Through engaging storytelling and a practical behavioral framework, he challenges us to think differently about how we lead, how we follow, and how we cultivate organizational cultures of adaptability, accountability, and grace. Whether you're in the C-suite, a middle manager, or just starting your leadership journey, this episode offers fresh and applicable insights to help you navigate fast-changing times. In This Episode, You'll Learn about Leaderology and Liminal Space: What liminal space is and why it matters for today's leaders and followers Why leadership is behavior, not position—and how followership is just as critical How Chris developed his Tessellations of Behavior model for strategic, tactical, and operational alignment The power of clearly defined behaviors like integrity, teachability, and grace in shaping organizational culture How the National Leaderology Association is working to elevate leadership and followership as scientific disciplines Why grace and empathy are essential tools for modern leadership in a world of rapid change and AI integration You will enjoy watching our podcast on YouTube. Other podcasts you will enjoy: 429: Embracing the Future: How Matt Leta is Guiding Companies 428: Al Must Transform Our Communication Strategy. Just Ask Dan Nestle! 427: Empowering Women in STEM: Rashmi Chaturvedi's Journey Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn      

On a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of talking with Matt Leta, a visionary entrepreneur, author, and futurist who is helping organizations navigate the rapidly changing business landscape. Founder and CEO of The Future Group—home to Future Works, Future Horizon, and Future Quest—Matt joined me to share his bold vision for the future of work and how businesses can adapt and thrive in the age of AI and automation. A New Kind of Transformation What's clear from my conversation with Matt is this: we are not heading back to the way things used to be. The fourth industrial revolution is here, and it's rewriting the rules. Matt's experience in building digital products, advising startups, and working with giants like Apple and Google has led him to rethink how companies approach innovation. Rather than viewing AI as just another tool, Matt sees it as part of a broader cultural and structural shift—what he calls “next-gen digital transformation.” Matt believes we are entering a new age—what he calls the "age of intelligence." It's not just about adding AI to business operations. It's about creating a new business “brain,” where humans, software, and artificial intelligence work together in a symbiotic system. He compares this to the human brain's evolution, where the reptilian brain, the limbic system, and the neocortex work in harmony. Businesses, he argues, must also evolve in layers—people, data/software, and intelligence—functioning as one. You will love watching our podcast on YouTube Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In this thought-provoking episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we welcome Dan Nestle, a strategic communications expert and AI enthusiast, to explore the transformative role of artificial intelligence in marketing, branding, and storytelling. With over 20 years of corporate and agency experience, Dan has been at the forefront of digital and content innovation, helping businesses adapt to the rapidly evolving communications landscape. As AI tools become more sophisticated, many professionals are left wondering: Will AI replace human creativity? Can AI-generated content be authentic? How can businesses use AI without losing their unique voice? Dan tackles these pressing questions, offering real-world insights into how AI can serve as a powerful assistant—rather than a replacement—for communicators, marketers, and business leaders. During our conversation, Dan shares his fascinating career trajectory, from teaching English in Japan to leading global corporate communications teams. Now, as the founder of Inquisitive Communications, he helps organizations navigate AI's impact on content strategy, storytelling, and audience engagement. He also provides a step-by-step breakdown of the AI tools he uses daily to streamline content creation, repurpose valuable insights, and enhance branding efforts without sacrificing authenticity. We'll discuss the importance of curiosity in embracing new technologies, the fear and hesitation many professionals feel around AI, and why adopting AI-driven workflows can save time, increase efficiency, and improve creativity. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, an entrepreneur, or just starting to explore AI's potential, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you integrate AI into your communications and branding efforts. Get ready to rethink how you approach content in the age of AI, and learn why being human is still the most valuable differentiator in a tech-driven world. If you prefer to watch the video of our podcast, click here. About Dan Nestle

In this inspiring episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, host Andy sits down with Rashmi Chaturvedi, a trailblazer in the technology space and an advocate for women in STEM. Rashmi shares her remarkable journey—from her early beginnings in India to becoming a respected leader in digital transformation and entrepreneurship in the United States. Early Beginnings & Bold First Steps Rashmi opens up about her initial challenges as a young professional arriving in the U.S. with little knowledge of the local work culture. Fresh from completing her master's degree in India, she took a bold leap by applying for a role at Nextel. A series of unexpected events—starting with a delayed connecting flight and a van accident—set the stage for a defining moment. Despite arriving late at a closed office, Rashmi's determination led her to insist on speaking with someone. A senior executive, who happened to be the only one still working in a lit corner office, not only listened but immediately offered her the job. This serendipitous experience taught her the importance of persistence and trusting one's gut. You will enjoy her video on Youtube: Climbing the Corporate Ladder at Nextel & Disney After proving her mettle as a database administrator at Nextel, Rashmi's journey took her to Disney, where she immersed herself in a culture known for both technical excellence and inclusivity. At Disney, she encountered one of her most influential mentors—a senior woman whose authoritative presence and drive left a lasting impact. Their informal yet transformative mentorship sessions (often initiated in unexpected places like a restroom) helped Rashmi expand her perspective from strictly technical expertise to a broader understanding of business strategy and customer-focused innovation. This period not only reinforced her technical abilities but also ignited a passion for leadership and holistic business thinking. Entrepreneurship & Building KAYGEN. After a decade with Disney, personal challenges at home—most notably caring for her ailing daughter—became a turning point. Realizing the need for a more flexible work-life balance, Rashmi embraced her entrepreneurial spirit. With encouragement from her supportive husband, she launched her own data management practice, which later evolved into  KAYGEN. The company, whose name is inspired by the Japanese word Kaizen (continuous improvement), reflects her vision of blending technology with business strategy to drive sustainable competitive advantages. Under her leadership, KAYGEN has grown exponentially, even earning recognition on the Inc. 5000 list. Empowering Women in STEM A key theme throughout the conversation is mentorship and the importance of representation. Drawing on her own experiences of isolation in male-dominated tech environments, Rashmi has launched the UpTempo Careers program. This initiative focuses on guiding women returning to or advancing in STEM fields through job coaching, mock interviews, and mentorship from top executives. By fostering a community where women see themselves represented in leadership roles, she believes that more women will feel empowered to pursue and thrive in STEM careers. Key Takeaways Perseverance Pays Off: Rashmi's early experience at Nextel is a testament to the power of persistence. Mentorship is Vital: Finding role models and nurturing relationships can transform a career. Embrace Change: Whether it's a career pivot or launching your own company, change can lead to growth. Invest in Community: Supporting underrepresented groups in STEM builds a stronger, more inclusive future. To learn more about Rashmi and her journey visit her here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rashmic/ Her website at: kaygen.com (KAYGEN) Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

The intersection of purpose and profit is redefining modern careers, and our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon explores this compelling shift with guest Georgii Enthoven. A Harvard MBA and global business leader, Georgi shares her fascinating career journey, insights from her upcoming book Work That's Worth It (launching April 8), and the importance of intentional careers that merge contribution with compensation. The Future of Work: Purpose and Profit Go Hand-in-Hand As capitalism reaches a tipping point, thought leaders worldwide, are exploring how businesses and careers must evolve. A growing number of professionals are no longer satisfied with choosing between financial success and meaningful work. Instead, they are finding ways to achieve both. Georgina, who once struggled to balance her personal drive for impact with a high-earning corporate career, realized that the key isn't an "either-or" approach—it's "and." Purpose and profit can and should coexist. This realization led to her book, which offers guidance on building careers that sustain both personal well-being and global impact. How to Build a Career That Matters During the podcast, Georgi outlined a framework to help professionals align their work with their values: Identify a Problem Worth Solving: Careers should be built around real-world challenges that inspire action. Whether it's sustainability, social justice, or healthcare innovation, finding a mission-driven focus is key. Merge Ambition with Impact: Many professionals, like Georgina, initially succeed in high-paying jobs but feel unfulfilled. Shifting toward work that aligns with personal values doesn't mean giving up success—it means redefining it. Intentionality is Essential: The modern workforce spends approximately 90,000 hours on their careers. Georgina emphasizes that these hours should be spent wisely, creating lasting contributions while ensuring financial stability. Learn from Trailblazers: The book Work That's Worth It features inspiring companies like Client Earth (holding governments accountable for environmental policies). The stories provide a roadmap for anyone seeking to build a business or career with impact. If you prefer to watch the video, click here:  Why This Matters More Than Ever The demand for purpose-driven businesses is growing rapidly. Companies that align with ethical and social goals are attracting top talent, loyal customers, and long-term success. The rise of B Corps and social enterprises demonstrates that impact-driven business models are here to stay. What's Next? Georgi Enthoven's Work That's Worth It is set to be a must-read for professionals seeking to balance financial success with making a difference. As a leader in purpose-driven business development, she will continue guiding individuals and organizations to rethink the way they approach their careers. Final Takeaways Work Should be Intentional: Careers should contribute meaningfully to both personal and societal well-being. Success is About Impact, Not Just Income: The highest earners don't always feel the most fulfilled. Find a balance. The Future is Purpose-Driven: Businesses that prioritize both sustainability and profit will shape the next generation of success stories. If you're looking to build a meaningful career, don't miss this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. Listen now and be sure to grab a copy of Work That's Worth It on April 8! Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation,   Andi Simon CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Barbara Holifield—a seasoned Jungian analyst, psychotherapist, and somatic psychology expert—on my podcast On the Brink with Andi Simon. Barbara's insights, drawn from decades of experience and personal transformation, left a deep impression on me, and I'm excited to share our conversation with you. In our discussion, Barbara introduced me (and hopefully you) to the powerful idea that our body is not just a collection of parts but a unified whole, and that true transformation begins when we tune into our physical sensations as much as our thoughts. What is a "Whole Body Transformation?" In her new book, Being with the Body in Depth Psychology,  Barbara explores the profound importance of accessing the inwardly felt body in depth psychotherapeutic process to enhance the experience of affective life. She draws her insights from philosophical perspectives, neuroscientific and infant research, developmental theory, and trauma studies. What she discovers is a comprehensive overview of embodiment. From her experience, Barbara offers clinical vignettes to demonstrate the critical value of working with bodily felt implicit relational memory. This approach is particularly important with those who have suffered developmental trauma. A Journey of Personal Transformation During our conversation, Barbara shared how her own experiences with trauma and adversity led her to a path of self-discovery and healing. What struck me was her belief that by “dropping the story”—that is, stepping away from the often-limiting narratives we create about our experiences—and instead fully experiencing our bodily sensations, we can connect with a more authentic and grounded version of ourselves. Barbara explained how modern life tends to push us to compartmentalize our experiences, but she reminded me that our mind, heart, and gut are deeply interconnected. Our earliest, instinctual responses, rooted in our sensory and emotional experiences, are just as important as our cognitive interpretations. Key Take-Aways from Our Interview The Body as an Integrated Whole: Barbara challenged the idea that our bodies are just a collection of parts—like a car with separate components. Instead, she stressed that our physical, emotional, and cognitive experiences are all interconnected. This holistic perspective not only helps us understand trauma and adversity but also empowers us to transform those experiences by engaging with our whole selves. Transformation Through Mindful Presence: A central theme of our conversation was the transformative power of mindfulness. Barbara emphasized the importance of pausing to feel and acknowledge our physical sensations, especially during challenging moments. By doing so, we can break free from the limiting stories we tell ourselves and access a more balanced, authentic response to life's ups and downs. Enhanced Communication and Relationship Building: Relationships often falter when we let our personal narratives—filled with assumptions and unspoken grievances—take over. Barbara shared how simply expressing our true feelings; by communicating the physical sensations and emotions we experience in the moment, can lead to deeper empathy and understanding. This approach not only fosters healing in ourselves but also strengthens our bonds with others. You might enjoy this video of our interview on Youtube. Practical Steps I'm Taking to Better Understand My Body and My Mind Inspired by Barbara's wisdom, I've started incorporating a few practices into my daily routine, and I'd love for you to try them as well: Mindful Sensation Check-Ins: I now make it a point to pause throughout the day and check in with my body. I notice my breath, the tension in my shoulders, or the steadiness of my feet. This small act of awareness helps me stay connected to my body, especially during stressful times. Journaling My Sensory Experiences: After particularly emotional moments, I take a few minutes to jot down the physical sensations I felt. This practice has helped me differentiate between the story my mind creates and the raw, embodied experience of my emotions, providing clearer insights into my responses. Engaging in Embodied Movement: Whether it's through yoga, authentic movement, or a mindful walk, I've found that engaging in activities that connect me with my body has been transformative. Appreciating simple moments—like a sunrise or a heartfelt connection with a friend—reminds me to experience life fully and authentically. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!

In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I sat down with Vladiimer Botsvadze—a true pioneer in digital transformation and marketing innovation—to discuss building a personal brand in an era dominated by AI and automation. Our conversation weaved together inspiring personal anecdotes, actionable insights, and a clear message: authenticity and human connection remain the bedrock of success, even as technology reshapes our world. Vladimer's journey is nothing short of remarkable. Originally from Georgia, he moved to the United States at the age of 18 and quickly discovered that building a personal brand was essential to thrive in New York City. When traditional social media platforms were in their infancy, Vladimer understood that face-to-face networking and self-education were crucial. He frequented the New York Public Library, attended physical networking events, and embraced the frenetic pace of the city to carve out his unique niche. This early commitment to personal growth paid off—by leveraging platforms like Twitter, he grew his following exponentially, demonstrating that persistence and authenticity can break down even the toughest barriers. You might love to watch our podcast on Youtube:  Throughout the podcast, Vladimer emphasized the shift from traditional marketing to a new paradigm where customer engagement and community-building take center stage. In today's digital landscape, brands are no longer just logos or products; they are vibrant communities built on trust, interaction, and authentic storytelling. Vladimier's own experience is a testament to this transformation. By sending over 130,000 tweets and actively engaging with his audience, he not only built a vast following but also fostered genuine relationships. His advice is simple yet profound: “Be interactive, show gratitude, and build community.” This approach, he explained, is crucial because in a world where 90% of internet content is predicted to be generated by AI, the human element becomes a key differentiator. Another central theme of our conversation was the rapid evolution of technology. Vladimer drew parallels between historical disruptions—such as Blockbuster's failure to adapt to the digital revolution—and the current transformative power of generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Midjourney, and Perplexity. He cautioned that while these tools are reshaping content creation and marketing, it is essential to balance automation with authenticity. For Vladimir, the true power of AI lies in its ability to augment human creativity rather than replace it. His message to marketers and brands is clear: adapt to the digital revolution now or risk being left behind, much like those who once clung to outdated technologies. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the fascinating world of podcasting—its past, present, and potential future. Joining me are two extraordinary guests: Chad Parizman, founder of Adder Communications and a podcast consultant with years of experience helping brands harness the power of audio, and Mark Schaefer, a renowned marketing expert, author, and podcaster. Together, we delve into the transformative role of podcasts in today's rapidly evolving media landscape. Meet our Guests: Mark Schaefer and Chad Parizman Podcasting's Emergence and Growth Podcasting has exploded, with over 4.2 million podcasts worldwide and a steadily growing audience. Chad's journey began at Pfizer, where he introduced podcasting as a tool for internal and external communications. His experience revealed podcasting as a medium with endless possibilities for storytelling, marketing, and engagement. He emphasized that podcasts aren't one-size-fits-all—they can be interview-based, documentary-style, seasonal, or entirely unique. The key, according to Chad, is to let the content dictate the format, not the other way around. Mark's introduction to podcasting stemmed from curiosity and a desire to expand his expertise beyond blogging. His strategy? Start small and sustain joy. “To stand out,” he explains, “you've got to be great and passionate about what you're doing.” Over 13 years, Mark's podcast evolved with rotating co-hosts, reflecting his belief in relevance—matching passion and skills to the needs of the audience. Why Podcasting Works Both guests agree: podcasting is about authenticity, trust, and human connection. Unlike polished social media or video content, podcasts offer a raw and personal experience. As Mark points out, “A podcast is one of the last bastions of truly human, authentic, and trusted content.” Chad adds that technology, including AI tools, is making it easier than ever to focus on creating compelling content while automating time-consuming tasks like editing and research. The Future of Podcasting Relevance and purpose remain at the heart of successful podcasts. As Chad notes, listeners are increasingly drawn to niche content tailored to their interests, often willing to pay for it through subscription services. Mark believes podcasting will remain a critical medium for building authentic relationships, both for individuals and brands. AI also looms large in podcasting's future. While tools like voice synthesis can assist with production, Mark and Chad agree that the human element will always be essential for building trust and emotional connections. Key Takeaways Podcasting's Personal Connection Podcasts thrive on authenticity and human connection. Great podcasts make listeners feel like they're part of a meaningful conversation, not just an audience. Creative Formats for Great Podcasts Break away from traditional weekly interviews. Experiment with formats like solo episodes, seasonal releases, or well-researched documentary-style series. The Future of Podcasts is Niche Listeners are seeking content that resonates deeply with their interests. Building a small but loyal audience is often more impactful than chasing mass appeal. AI Can Enhance Podcasting From editing to show notes, AI tools streamline production, freeing creators to focus on storytelling and delivering value. However, authenticity remains key. Monetization Through Passion and Purpose Podcasts with clear goals and dedicated followings are increasingly supported through subscriptions and direct listener funding. Be top of heart, not just top of mind. Podcasting's Future is Bright With a growing listener base and its unique ability to build trust, podcasting is poised to remain a dominant medium for content creation and marketing. Final Thoughts Podcasting is no longer just a hobby; it's a powerful medium for storytelling, brand building, and connecting with audiences on a deeper level. Whether you're a podcaster, a listener, or considering starting your own show, this episode offers insights into how to thrive in this exciting and ever-changing space. Let us know your thoughts—where do you see podcasting heading next? Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 407: Shaping the Future: Dr. Emily Springer on Responsible AI in Business  396:Mark Schaefer: The Customer is Changing. How Can We Build a Community Through Marketing? 406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown's Story Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn    

On the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the innovative and impactful journeys of two remarkable guests: Shanna Greathouse, founder and CEO of Pigybak, and Joe Manofsky, chairman, president, and co-founder of One Step Ahead Ohio. These two changemakers are reshaping how we think about skilled trades, community development, and career pathways in ways that are inspiring and deeply transformational. Shanna Greathouse: Transforming Communities Through Technology Shanna Greathouse's entrepreneurial journey is rooted in her love for community and her passion for creating equitable solutions. As the founder of  Pigybak, she's revolutionizing the way homeowners and tradespeople connect. Leveraging AI-driven technology, Pigybakprovides a marketplace where contractors can streamline their scheduling while homeowners access affordable, collaborative home services. The company's unique "group deal" model encourages neighborhood collaboration, reducing costs and fostering a stronger sense of community. Drawing from her background in consulting and analytics, Shanna turned her observations of inefficiencies in the trades and home services industry into an innovative platform. Her deep commitment to supporting local tradespeople—many of whom are small business owners from underrepresented groups—adds a layer of purpose to Pigybak's mission. For Shanna, the initiative isn't just about home services; it's about empowering tradespeople, rebuilding neighborhoods, and creating sustainable opportunities for growth. Joe Manofsky: Advocating for Workforce Development in Ohio Joe Manofsky's path to philanthropy and advocacy began in his hometown of Youngstown, Ohio, where community values shaped his drive to give back. As the co-founder of One Step Ahead Ohio, Joe leads a nonprofit that focuses on eliminating executive salaries, ensuring transparency, and directly supporting local families and nonprofits in Northeast Ohio. His initiatives extend to workforce development through the Skilled Labor Foundation, which aims to address the skilled trades shortage. Joe's vision includes early career exploration programs for middle school students, exposing them to the vast opportunities in skilled trades. By creating events that connect students, parents, and trades professionals, Joe and his team hope to shift the narrative around the trades, demonstrating that these careers are viable, lucrative, and vital to our economy. Through transparency, collaboration, and advocacy, Joe is transforming the perception of skilled trades, ensuring they are recognized for their significance and potential. Shifting the Trades Narrative To Build Better Communities Together, Shanna and Joe are tackling a shared challenge: changing the perception of skilled trades. Whether it's through gamifying trades to highlight their athleticism and skill or hosting community events that connect stakeholders, their work emphasizes the importance of collaboration and storytelling. As Andi Simon noted during the episode, this movement is about rebranding the trades, creating pride in these careers, and highlighting their critical role in community development. Why These Programs Matter In a time when workforce shortages are impacting industries from construction to healthcare, the work of innovators like Shanna and Joe is more important than ever. Their stories inspire action—whether it's supporting local tradespeople, exploring workforce development grants, or simply rethinking the career paths we advocate for in our communities. Takeaways for Listeners For Homeowners: Pigybak offers a way to support local tradespeople while collaborating with neighbors for affordable, community-driven solutions. For Advocates: One Step Ahead Ohio demonstrates how transparency, collaboration, and grassroots initiatives can drive change in workforce development. For Everyone: By raising awareness about the skilled trades, we can help young people see the potential for meaningful, successful careers outside of traditional college pathways. As I like to remind us, “Take your observations and turn them into innovations.” Shanna and Joe are perfect examples of this philosophy in action, using their insights to create solutions that empower individuals and strengthen communities. Catch the full episode to learn more about their inspiring work and discover how you can contribute to transforming the trades in your community. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, the podcast dedicated to helping you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can thrive in today's fast-changing world. Each episode, we bring stories and insights designed to spark innovation and personal growth. This episode explores the transformative power of emotional intelligence (EI), featuring insights from a renowned business psychologist, Dr. Robin Hills, who has impacted the lives of hundreds of thousands across the globe. In this episode of "On the Brink," we talk with Dr. Hills, a business psychologist and director of "EI4Change," about the crucial role of emotional intelligence (EI) in today's tech-driven world. We explore how EI aids personal and professional growth, especially amidst AI advancements and the pandemic's impact. Robin shares his journey into EI, emphasizing its importance in navigating emotions and relationships. Of great importance in understanding EI today is the generational challenges, the influence of technology on emotional skills, and the need for comprehensive EI education. The episode underscores the irreplaceable human qualities of empathy, creativity, and emotional awareness. If you prefer to watch the video, click here: Let's dig further into EI. Emotional intelligence is about being smart with your feelings—combining thinking and emotions to make sound decisions and build authentic relationships. At its core, it involves self-awareness, self-regulation, empathy, and social skills. Developing EI is a lifelong journey, and it starts with recognizing your emotions and understanding how they influence your decisions and relationships. With practice, individuals can learn to respond wisely to emotions, even in challenging situations. Emotional Intelligence is essential to succeed in today's fast-changing world. In today's world, EI plays a critical role in navigating the complexities of life and work. As technology continues to advance, our emotional intelligence becomes even more essential, setting us apart from artificial intelligence. While AI can enhance our capabilities, it cannot replicate human creativity, empathy, or the ability to build meaningful connections. By embracing technology as a complement to our human skills, we can unlock new opportunities for growth and innovation. Developing EI requires a conscious effort to manage distractions, such as digital devices, and prioritize real-world interactions. It's important to foster emotional learning at all stages of life and create environments that value and nurture emotional intelligence. This includes teaching children the importance of empathy and social skills, as well as encouraging adults to reflect on their behaviors and adapt to changing circumstances. Key takeaways from this episode include: Cultivate self-awareness by regularly reflecting on your emotions and behaviors. Practice self-regulation by pausing before reacting and choosing responses that align with your values. Foster empathy and connection by actively listening and seeking to understand others. Listeners are encouraged to explore additional resources on emotional intelligence and consider how they can apply these principles in their own lives. Dr. Hills has two books available: "The Authority Guide to Emotional Resilience in Business" and "The Authority Guide to Emotional Resilience in Business," both published in The Authority Guide Series. By improving your emotional intelligence, you can lead more effectively, build stronger relationships, and adapt to the challenges of a rapidly evolving world. Thank you for joining this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. Remember, change begins with seeing, feeling, and thinking differently. For more insights, explore books like On the Brink, Rethink, and Women Mean Business. Together, let's turn observations into innovations and unlock our potential for growth and success. Until next time, have a wonderful day! Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation,   Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

In this compelling episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I welcome Kevin Cirilli, a visiting media fellow at the Atlantic Council, an accomplished journalist, and a futurist thinker. Kevin shares his remarkable journey from a young journalist covering high-profile stories to becoming a thought leader in technology, and global innovation. Our conversation is further enriched by the presence of Edie Fraser, my co-author of Women Mean Business, who introduces Kevin with a heartfelt endorsement of his forward-thinking leadership. A Journey Rooted in Integrity and Passion Kevin begins by recounting his upbringing in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, where he developed an early fascination with news, technology, and storytelling. His journey into journalism was unexpected but transformative. While attending Penn State University, he joined the Daily Collegian, where he discovered his passion for reporting. Covering crime stories and student government campaigns, Kevin honed his storytelling skills and learned the importance of trust and integrity in journalism. He shares a pivotal moment when his coverage of the Penn State child abuse scandal led to his first professional opportunity with Politico. Despite initial challenges, Kevin's dedication to seeing stories through to completion—and his commitment to truth—earned him recognition as a rising star in journalism. If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here: The Unexpected Path to Covering Trump Kevin discusses his unique experience covering Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. What began as an assignment to cover Trump's hacked Twitter account evolved into a historic role as he followed the candidate across the country. Kevin shares anecdotes about the whirlwind nature of Trump rallies and the moment he realized the profound impact of his reporting when Trump won the presidency. He reflects on his time as Bloomberg's Chief Washington Correspondent, where he reported on the intersection of global business and politics, gaining unparalleled insights into world affairs. A Shift Toward Geopolitics and Technology As Kevin's career progressed, he felt a growing desire to explore broader issues beyond traditional politics. His fellowship with the Atlantic Council allowed him to focus on the intersection of geopolitics, technology, and security. He emphasizes the importance of understanding how emerging technologies like AI, space exploration, and quantum computing are reshaping global dynamics. Kevin advocates for freedom and ethical innovation, stressing the need to ensure that the creators of critical technologies share democratic values. Introducing “Meet the Future” Kevin introduces his latest venture, Meet the Future, a platform dedicated to fostering dialogue about the challenges and opportunities of tomorrow. Initially starting as a mentorship program, Meet the Future has grown into a dynamic newsletter and educational initiative. It focuses on providing actionable information about topics like cryptocurrency, semiconductor manufacturing, and space weather, with an underlying commitment to freedom and innovation. Kevin's mission is clear: to empower individuals with the knowledge they need to navigate a rapidly changing world. He envisions Meet the Future as a platform that inspires the next generation of leaders while sparking meaningful conversations about the technologies shaping our lives. Kevin Cirilli's  Passion for Storytelling In a surprising twist, Kevin reveals his foray into theater with the creation of a new play, The Man in the Red Hat. This creative endeavor reflects his deep commitment to storytelling and his belief in the power of narrative to inspire change. While details remain under wraps, Kevin describes the writing process as a joyful and transformative experience, offering a new medium for him to explore his ideas. Lessons and Takeaways Throughout the episode, Kevin shares valuable lessons from his journey: Follow Your Interests: Pursue what excites you, even if the path is unconventional. Embrace Change: Be willing to pivot when opportunities arise. Prioritize Integrity: Success comes from staying true to your values. Have Fun: Joy and passion are essential for long-term fulfillment. Final Reflections As the conversation concludes, Andi and Edie celebrate Kevin's inspiring vision for the future. They highlight his ability to translate complex global issues into accessible insights, emphasizing the importance of embracing freedom, innovation, and collaboration. Kevin's journey, filled with unexpected doors and transformative experiences, serves as a powerful reminder of the impact one person can have on shaping the future. To learn more about Kevin Cirilli and subscribe to his Meet the Future newsletter, visit MTF.tv. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in geopolitics, technology, and the transformative power of storytelling. Kevin Cirilli's story is one of resilience, curiosity, and the relentless pursuit of knowledge, making it a perfect fit for the On the Brink with Andi Simon audience. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

Self-awareness is a game-changer in leadership, and Jennifer Leslie is proof of that. In this episode, Jennifer, a human resources executive, author, and meditation teacher, shares her inspiring journey and groundbreaking work in creating conscious leadership programs. Her message is simple but powerful: to lead others effectively, you must first understand and lead yourself. Jennifer's unique perspective on leadership, rooted in her early career in catering and event management, is truly enlightening. Managing teams of up to 250 individuals, she developed a fascination with understanding people's strengths and creating environments where everyone could thrive. Transitioning into HR, Jennifer combined her operational expertise with a deep passion for empowering individuals to excel. Check out Jennifer's video podcast here:  Five years ago, Jennifer's leadership approach underwent a pivotal transformation when she enrolled in the Inner MBA program. This collaborative initiative by Sounds True, NYU, and Wisdom 2.0 emphasizes conscious business practices, encouraging leaders to prioritize self-care as a foundation for better leadership. Jennifer took this mindset back to her organization, where she developed a 12-workshop leadership program designed to foster listening, tough conversations, and feedback skills—cornerstones of effective leadership in today's fast-paced workplace. Jennifer's workshops play a crucial role in empowering leaders to navigate the pressures of modern work environments. She observes that leaders are often afraid to confront tough situations, but Jennifer's workshops equip them to face challenges with courage and authenticity. By teaching leaders to embrace discomfort, Jennifer ensures they can have honest, impactful conversations that drive growth and build trust. Jennifer's work is a testament to the power of collaboration. In addition to her workshops, Jennifer contributed to the book Leading with Self-Awareness, a collaborative effort by the Changing Work Collective. In her chapter, Jennifer shares a transformative moment that occurred while listening to a sermon from her father, an Episcopal priest. Inspired by the phrase “Be bold,” she reexamined her career and committed to stepping outside her comfort zone. Her chapter provides practical tools to help others do the same, making the book a powerful resource for anyone seeking personal and professional growth. Jennifer's story reminds us that leadership is not just about commanding teams but about creating connections, fostering inclusion, and empowering others to succeed. Her approach aligns with modern leadership principles emphasizing humility, transparency, and collaboration over command-and-control methods. For Jennifer, being bold means rethinking her leadership style and helping others reimagine theirs. She encourages leaders to ask themselves, “What are you giving up if you don't take a step forward today?” Her message resonates in a world where work and leadership are rapidly evolving. Jennifer's work demonstrates that conscious leadership is about more than just achieving business goals—it's about transforming workplaces into environments where individuals can truly thrive. Her innovative leadership programs and insights from Leading with Self-Awareness provide a roadmap for anyone ready to embrace change, take bold steps, and lead with intention. Key Takeaways: Self-awareness is the foundation of effective leadership. Listening and tough conversations are essential skills for creating inclusive and successful teams. Being bold means stepping out of your comfort zone and embracing change with courage. Leadership is about creating environments where everyone feels valued and can contribute their best. Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

This podcast for On the Brink with Andi Simon is about how Sue Willoughby helps women over 40 transform their lives using her approach, Equus Coaching.Sue Willoughby is on a mission to help women over 40 tackle their challenges and build better lives. Through her business, Willoughby Coaching, she uses a unique method called Equus Coaching, where clients work with horses to learn more about themselves. These sessions focus on non-verbal communication, leadership, and personal growth, helping women make big changes in their lives. Sue Willoughby's Journey to Equus Coaching has not been Easy Sue's journey hasn't been easy. She grew up with a single parent who struggled with alcoholism. This taught her to be strong and face tough situations, even when she didn't feel confident. Coming out as gay at 17 was another challenge, and by 19, she faced such deep struggles that she attempted suicide. For a while, her life felt like it was spinning out of control. Things turned around in the 1990s when Sue met her partner. They moved across the country, and Sue started to rebuild her life. She went back to school, found a new career, bought a home, and became a real estate investor. During this time, she reconnected with her love for horses, which had always been a source of comfort during tough times. Her Goal is to Guide Other Women Today, Sue uses what she's learned to guide others. Through Equus Coaching, she helps women understand themselves better and overcome what's holding them back. Horses, she says, are amazing teachers because they respond to how we act and feel, even when we don't say a word. Sue also practices what she teaches. She's done all kinds of exciting things, like being a DJ, stand-up comedian, actor, pilot, and Roller Derby referee. These experiences help her connect with her clients, showing them how stepping out of their comfort zones can lead to amazing growth. Now living near Seattle, Sue shares her life with a horse named Moose, two Dachshunds named Benny and Buddy, and a VW Bus she calls Arlo. Her story is proof that it's never too late to make a change and live the life you want. If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 411: TaRita Johnson Tackling the Challenges of DEI and Belonging 406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown's Story 414: Ilene Rosenthal: Inspiring a Revolution in Children's Education Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Lotus Buckner, founder and CEO of HLB Talent Solutions and author of The Joy of HR. Lotus is a dynamic leader in the human resources field with experience spanning corporate environments, startups, and everything in between. Her insights on HR's evolution and intentional leadership are essential for understanding today's workplace. Lotus Buckner's Transformational HR Journey Lotus's path to HR began during college when she stumbled upon a management and HR concentration. After taking her first HR class, she discovered her passion and launched a career that has spanned nonprofits, healthcare, universities, and startups. Her first role at a nonprofit hospital turned into an 11-year journey where she advanced from intern to head of HR, managing significant growth and leading efforts through the COVID-19 pandemic. Her experiences have shaped her understanding of how HR functions differ across industries. From resource-heavy corporations to scrappy startups, she emphasizes how organizations require distinct approaches to people management. This adaptability is a key theme in her book. If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here: Finding Joy In the Corporate vs. Startup HR In larger organizations, HR often revolves around specialization, with leaders focusing on well-defined roles. In contrast, startups demand versatility and a generalist mindset, with employees wearing multiple hats. Lotus embraced this shift when she transitioned to leading HR for Chowbus, a food delivery tech startup. She describes startups as spaces where creativity and adaptability are paramount, which prepared her to establish her consulting business. During her corporate career, Lotus often encountered leaders who viewed HR as the solution to culture change. She notes, however, that true cultural shifts require the engagement of everyone in the organization, not just HR. Reach out and contact us if you need work on becoming a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! XfwsFCuF4RtszJp9ovnh   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

I love to bring back great guests to our podcast, On the Brink with Andi Simon. Recently,  I had the pleasure of reconnecting with Nori Jabba, an insightful author, speaker, and advocate for empowering women through their communication skills. With her extensive experience and deep understanding of the challenges women face in leadership roles, Nori's insights are invaluable. In 2023, she joined our podcast to discuss her groundbreaking first book, Keeping Your Seat at the Table, which shed light on the unique obstacles women face in leadership and offered actionable strategies to overcome them. Women, It is Time to Master Your Voice Now she has a chapter in a new book, OWN YOUR STORY that is available today on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, among others. Her chapter is about how women have to go beyond finding their voice to mastering that voice. During our conversation, Nori shared her journey, highlighting the importance of resilience, confidence, and, most notably, the power of voice. Her work encourages women not only to find their voice but also to master it. This mastery, Nori argues, is essential for women to lead and influence others effectively. Her current research focuses on how the way women speak directly affects how they are perceived, heard, and followed in professional settings, providing practical strategies for improvement. One of the key takeaways from our discussion was Nori's exploration of "verbal mastery." Her latest work emphasizes that it's not just about speaking up but mastering how we communicate. Verbal mastery goes beyond just having a voice at the table. It's about how women can manage or lead depending on how they verbally present themselves—whether they speak with authority or empathy or engage others confidently or openly. This work is particularly relevant in today's professional world, where effective communication is one key essential to a woman's success. Why Mastery? People Hear What They Want To! In her chapter, Nori explains that verbal mastery matters in leadership because people hear what they want to hear. When women speak, others are constantly evaluating whether they trust them, whether they'll follow them, and whether they believe in what they're saying. The challenge for women leaders is to recognize this dynamic and adapt their communication accordingly, not only to be heard but also to inspire trust and command respect. If you prefer to watch the video, Nori Jabba: Women How to Master Your Voice Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kimber Maderazzo, a remarkable leader whose journey through the Beauty and Cosmetics industry is nothing short of inspiring. Kimber's story is one of perseverance, talent, and an unyielding drive to succeed despite daunting challenges. A Journey of Innovation and Leadership Kimber's career spans over 25 years in the Beauty and Cosmetics industry, a field where she has worn many hats—from starting out at a makeup counter at the age of 14 to eventually finding herself in the boardroom of the world's leading acne brand. Her path was not linear or easy, but it was driven by a clear vision and a love for what she does. Kimber has consistently delivered innovation-driven revenue growth throughout her career in small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and Fortune-ranked companies. She has successfully defended against industry giants with significantly larger budgets, staged an 8-point market share comeback, and modernized business models to resonate with younger audiences, resulting in a nine-digit top-line impact. These achievements are not just numbers on a balance sheet—they are milestones that reflect Kimber's deep understanding of market dynamics and her ability to anticipate and adapt to changes. One of the most notable aspects of Kimber's career is her success in developing global expansion strategies, particularly in the lucrative Mexican and Chinese markets. This international perspective indicates Kimber's broader approach to business—one that is calculated, focused, and always focused on the long-term impact. If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here: Finding Your Way at Every Stage in Your Life's Journey While many in the business world often rush to achieve academic credentials early in their careers, Kimber's journey was different. She earned her MBA in her 40s, long after she had already begun making significant contributions to her industry. Kimber's journey is a powerful reminder that success is not tied to a specific timeline. Her experience shows that talent, hard work, and a willingness to take calculated risks can propel you forward, even if you need to follow the traditional path. Kimber's story particularly resonates with those who may feel like they are "late bloomers." Her message is clear: it is never too late to pursue your goals, and you should always appreciate the value of your experiences, no matter when they occur in your life. Learn more about Kimber Maderazzo here: Kimber L. Maderazzo Profile: linkedin.com/in/kimbermaderazzo Website: c200.org/   Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I welcomed Ilene Rosenthal, the visionary CEO and founder of Footsteps2Brilliance, an educational technology company redefining early literacy and financial education for students across the U.S. Ilene and I explored how technology is revolutionizing the education sector, enabling transformative learning opportunities that bridge gaps and engage students in innovative ways. Bringing Education into the Fifth Industrial Revolution Ilene's journey led her to create “Learn With Me,” the first transmedia educational program, eventually nominated for an Emmy. This innovation bridged educational media and interactive learning, setting the foundation for Footsteps2Brilliance. With her extensive background, Ilene has scaled her vision nationwide, serving over a million children to date. She has designed the Footsteps2Brilliance platform to be device-agnostic, ensuring accessibility on smartphones, tablets, and computers—essential for reaching diverse student populations in both urban and rural communities. If you prefer to watch her video, you will love her story. Click here I you would like to listen to other podcasts about women entrepreneurs creating companies of purpose: 412: Why is the Lipstick Journey Such an Awesome Company Helping Cancer Patients Thrive 406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown's Story Reach out and contact us if you need work on becoming a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

In this episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon," we engage in an insightful conversation with Chantal Cornelius, the founder of Appletree Marketing.  Together we delve into the intricate art of marketing strategies tailored for service-based businesses, particularly coaches and consultants. With over two decades of experience in the field, Chantelle's expertise is rooted in a unique approach that emphasizes fostering emotional connections with clients to create lasting and impactful relationships. Why Should You Foster Emotional Connections in Business? Chantal begins by sharing her personal and professional journey in the marketing world, painting a vivid picture of how she transitioned from a traditional marketer to a strategic advisor focused on helping service-based businesses thrive. Her early years were marked by learning the conventional aspects of marketing and understanding client expectations. However, through years of hands-on experience, Chantal discovered that the most effective way for businesses to resonate with their audiences was through meaningful emotional connections. This revelation led her to refine her approach and establish five key strategies at the core of her work today: Certainty, Connection, Contribution, Growth, and Significance. You might like to watch the interview here: Reach out and contact us if you need work on improving your business. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we're thrilled to feature Anna Warner-Mayes, an inspiring entrepreneur whose company, The Lipstick Journey, is making waves with purpose and profitability. Anna's story is a testament to resilience, passion, and a deep commitment to making a difference. Her journey, marked by multiple cancer diagnoses and countless treatments, is a source of inspiration for all of us. Anna's decision to channel her adversity into something powerful and uplifting, The Lipstick Journey , is a beacon of hope and empowerment. Her company, with its unique 'buy one, give one' lipstick initiative, is a living proof that even in the face of adversity, we can make a difference. How Can Lipstick Turn Into a Caring Community for Cancer Patients? The Lipstick Journey stands apart from typical beauty brands in its commitment to giving back to a community that has supported Anna through her own battles. Each lipstick purchase goes beyond the buyer to reach a cancer fighter, serving as a reminder of beauty, strength, and connection in the face of struggle. The concept is simple but powerful: each product bought gives a lipstick to someone battling cancer, offering them a small, meaningful moment of self-care and solidarity. As Anna shares on the podcast, 'Lipstick was always a little touch of normalcy for me, a way to brighten my day despite the challenges I faced.' This gesture embodies her desire to uplift others through beauty and kindness, and it's a call for all of us to come together and support those in need. As Anna has said: "What sets me apart from others is my mission while fighting cancer myself. For every lipstick purchased, one gets donated and when someone purchases, I allow them to choose the recipient. This has been extremely rewarding and heartfelt as some of the recipients send me personal notes. In my mission to help thrivers know they don't fight alone, I get the support from them knowing I also do not fight alone." Listen In or watch on YouTube: Reach out and contact us if you need work on improving your business. Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi SImon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of sitting down with TaRita Johnson, Senior Vice President of Talent and Diversity at The Right Place, a Michigan-based economic development organization. Throughout her career, TaRita has championed diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) and has helped organizations grow by embracing a more diverse workforce. She shared her insightful journey, revealing diversity's critical role in creating thriving, successful workplaces, and she introduced us to her powerful leadership model: VOICE. Watch this podcast here TaRita's Journey: A Commitment to Building Inclusive Communities From the beginning, TaRita's path has been shaped by her passion for promoting equity and opportunity. She shared with us how her early career experiences, paired with her background in education, shaped her belief that talent comes from all walks of life and that it's the role of leaders to create environments where all individuals feel valued and heard. Having spent years working in roles that intersect leadership, human resources, and diversity efforts, TaRita emphasized how essential it is to build intentional communities within organizations. She explained that DEI is not just a strategy but a core component of business success, enabling organizations to unlock new perspectives, ideas, and approaches. This philosophy has driven her work at The Right Place, where she is tasked with developing programs that help businesses attract, retain, and elevate diverse talent pools. In her role, TaRita tackles not only the recruitment aspect of diversity but also the equally important work of fostering belonging within an organization. She stressed that companies must focus on hiring individuals from diverse backgrounds and creating inclusive environments where employees feel empowered to contribute their full selves. VOICE: Vision, Open to New Ideas, Intentional Community, Compassion, Emotional Intelligence One of the most intriguing aspects of our conversation was TaRita's introduction to her leadership philosophy, which she sums up with the acronym VOICE. She explained that This framework serves as a guide for how leaders can foster diversity and inclusion in the workplace while empowering their teams to thrive. From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

In the latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of speaking with Vicki Bradley, a seasoned leadership coach and the driving force behind many successful leaders, both women and men. Vicki's work is rooted in the understanding that leadership is not just about authority or strategy—it's about connecting with people on a deeper level through effective communication and emotional intelligence. In our conversation, Vicki shared profound insights into how these elements are not just complementary but essential to effective leadership. The Secret to Become the Leader You Want to Be One of the key takeaways from our discussion with Vicki was the critical role that communication plays in leadership. She emphasized that clear, authentic communication is the cornerstone of trust-building. When leaders communicate effectively, they are able to inspire, motivate, and engage their teams. This, in turn, fosters an environment where people feel valued, understood, and committed to the shared vision. The Heart of Leadership: Conversational and Emotional Intelligence But communication alone isn't enough. Vicki argues that to truly excel as a leader, one must couple communication skills with emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence, or EQ, is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage our own emotions, as well as the emotions of others. According to Vicki, leaders who possess high EQ are better equipped to handle the complexities of human behavior in the workplace. They are more empathetic, more adaptable, and better at conflict resolution—skills that are indispensable in today's dynamic business environments. Bridging the Gender Divide in Leadership During our conversation, Vicki also touched on the unique challenges and opportunities that arise when working with both women and men to enhance their leadership skills. She noted that while the fundamental principles of good leadership—like communication and EQ—apply to everyone, the ways in which these skills are developed and expressed can differ between genders. For women, Vicki observed that societal expectations often influence how they communicate and assert themselves in the workplace. Many women are taught to be nurturing and cooperative, which can sometimes be at odds with traditional notions of leadership. Vicki's coaching helps women to leverage these qualities while also encouraging them to find their voice, assert their ideas confidently, and navigate the complexities of leadership without compromising their authenticity. On the other hand, men might face different challenges. Vicki explained that some men are conditioned to suppress emotions or view emotional intelligence as a "soft" skill that doesn't align with leadership. However, she emphasizes that when men embrace EQ, they often find that it enhances their leadership capabilities, particularly in building trust and fostering team cohesion. By helping men understand the value of EQ, Vicki guides them toward a more balanced and effective leadership style. Watch our interview here   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Award-Winning Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

Welcome to our anniversary podcast that celebrates a year of empowering change with our book, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robin Freedman Spizman, and Andi Simon, PhD. This book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success,  has become an amazing experience. I have often said that every book has its unique signature. A book's energy comes from the reader who opens the book and feels the power of the words, images, and ideas. Celebrating a Year of Empowering Change with Women Mean Business It's hard to believe that it's been a year since Edie Fraser and I launched Women Mean Business, a book that has become more than just a collection of stories; it's a movement. Over the past year, the book has not only sold extremely well but has also been the catalyst for nearly 70 events. These have sparked meaningful conversations, inspired change, and built connections among women—and even some men—seeking to understand and harness the power of women's leadership. You can watch the video of our podcast here: Read more about the authors and the book at www.womenmeanbusinessbook.com. From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

In a recent episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we spoke with Kathy D'Agostino, a forward-thinking expert passionate about the intersection of AI and human potential. Kathy's approach to AI goes beyond its technical capabilities; she focuses on how AI can be harnessed to uplift and augment what humans can achieve rather than replace them. AI isn't Replacing You -- Nothing can replace you if you don't let it! The fear that AI is coming for jobs is a persistent narrative that Kathy is eager to dispel. "The first thing I like to address is the fear that AI is coming after your job," she says. "AI is not coming after your job, but humans who know how to use AI will be able to do your job better, faster, and more efficiently. And yes, they may eventually nudge you out of the way, but let's be polite about that." Kathy's message is clear: AI isn't here to replace people but to help them. By understanding and embracing AI, workers can not only safeguard their roles but also enhance their ability to perform in previously unimaginable ways. AI can transform how people work, making tasks more efficient, freeing time for creative problem-solving, and ultimately strengthening companies. But this can only happen with a willingness to learn and adapt. You can also watch our interview here More about Kathy's Perspective on AI and the Future of Work One of the most significant takeaways from Kathy's conversation is her emphasis on learning AI. "Always remember to learn it," she stresses. "Because you're going to be able to do your job better, and you're going to make your company better. And on top of that, you're going to feel better." This sense of empowerment through learning AI is a central theme of Kathy's philosophy. She believes that instead of seeing AI as a threat, individuals should view it as a tool that can enhance their skills, making them indispensable in their roles. In her view, AI is an extension of human capability—an assistant, not a competitor. By integrating AI into everyday work processes, people can become more effective at what they do, whether that's improving customer service, streamlining administrative tasks, or even uncovering new market opportunities. From Observation to Innovation, CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

Today, I'm thrilled to have Dr. Emily Springer with us, who embodies this idea of thinking, feeling, seeing—and most importantly, doing. Dr. Springer deeply understands AI, ethics, and how these shape our lives, but she goes beyond that to help us understand how to harness AI for good. As Dr. Springer emphasized, more than learning about AI is required. You have to take action, and that's where the power of change comes in. Change is challenging. As a corporate anthropologist, I've seen firsthand how difficult it is for organizations and individuals to embrace it. But the future is moving quickly, and those unwilling to take action will be left behind. What excites me most about our conversation today is Dr. Springer's focus on inclusive AI—an approach that prioritizes equity, social justice, and improving lives. This philosophy goes hand-in-hand with our work, where I help organizations navigate transformation. Emily, too, helps people understand the often-intimidating world of AI, and she does so in ways that are accessible, not shrouded in technical jargon. Let me tell you a little more about Dr. Springer. She was recently named one of the 100 brilliant women in AI ethics for 2024, a well-deserved recognition highlighting her commitment to making AI smarter, kinder, fairer, and more inclusive. She is an expert on UNESCO's Women4Ethical AI platform, bringing her expertise to help build a more equitable future. Emily is also the founder of TechnoSocio Advisory, an organization dedicated to inclusive AI consulting, working to develop policies and programs that prioritize social good and improve livelihoods. And what makes her approach so compelling? It's that she's grounded in reality. While many focus on the technological marvels AI can create, Emily's mission is to understand what it means for the people who will live with these innovations daily. Her company, TechnoSocio Advisory, isn't about pushing AI forward—it's about making sure AI serves the people it's meant to help, especially regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion. We cannot ignore this as AI touches more and more parts of our lives. If you prefer to watch this podcast, you can find it here: From Observation to Innovation,   Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

Building a Mental Health Legacy: Dr. Barbara Brown on Empowering Communities Through Purpose-Driven Practice In the latest episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon," I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Barbara J. Brown, a true trailblazer in the mental health field. Dr. Brown is the Founder and CEO of CapitolHill Consortium for Counseling & Consultation (CCCC) and Unicorn Health Care, LLC. With over three decades of experience, she has dedicated her life to building not just a successful practice, but a legacy that prioritizes community well-being, purpose, and significance over profit. A Purpose-Driven Journey Dr. Brown's journey began with a vision to provide high-quality, accessible, and culturally responsive mental health services to underserved communities. In 2009, she founded CCCC with a mission to offer comprehensive psychological support to children, adolescents, and adults. What started as a solo practice soon evolved into a robust group practice with over 80 staff members, becoming a beacon of hope and healing for countless individuals. Her success, however, is not merely measured by the growth of her practice but by the impact she has made on the communities she serves. Dr. Brown's approach to mental health is deeply rooted in the belief that true healing comes from addressing the holistic needs of individuals—mind, body, and spirit—and fostering a sense of belonging and support within the community. If you prefer to watch Dr. Brown's video, please click here. A Legacy of Leadership and Community Impact Throughout our conversation, it became clear that Dr. Brown's success is driven by her unwavering commitment to the communities she serves. Her work extends beyond individual therapy sessions; she is actively involved in training the next generation of mental health professionals. CCCC's recent launch of a Clinical and Community Professional Development Program for early career social workers, counselors, and marriage and family therapists is a testament to her dedication to fostering excellence in the field.

In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the groundbreaking work of Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan, the dynamic co-founders of Unicorn. Unicorn is a company with purpose, boldly revolutionized period care. Unicorn isn't just a business. It's a movement dedicated to dismantling outdated norms and offering a fresh, empathetic approach to menstruation. Through their innovative dispensers, now found in restroom stalls across the country, they are taking significant strides towards ending period poverty and promoting dignity for all. The Birth of Unicorn: A Vision Rooted in Empathy and Innovation Denielle and Thyme's journey began in the high-stakes world of corporate America, where they both enjoyed successful careers. However, as they climbed the corporate ladder, they found themselves searching for deeper meaning in their work. They realized their true passion lay in addressing a critical yet often overlooked issue: the lack of accessible, high-quality period care products. With a blend of entrepreneurial spirit, innovative thinking, and a deep sense of empathy, Denielle and Thyme co-founded Unicorn. Their mission was clear: to create a line of better, organic period products that were easily accessible to everyone. But they didn't stop at just offering superior products—they wanted to revolutionize the entire period care experience. Listen in or watch our podcast with Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan, click here Danielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan Are Revolutionizing Period Care

In today's rapidly evolving business environment, traditional leadership models are becoming increasingly obsolete. The command-and-control approach, once the hallmark of successful leadership, is now often seen as a relic of the past. With the rise of concepts like Quiet Quitting, The Great Resignation, and the friction surrounding remote work, leaders are faced with challenges that require a more nuanced, empathetic approach. In a recent interview on the On the Brink with Andi Simon podcast, Melissa Robinson-Winemiller delved into the critical role of empathy and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) in modern leadership. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller's Expertise can Help You Become that Great, Empathetic Leader Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, an expert in leadership development and an advocate for empathy-driven leadership, brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to the table. With over 30 years of leadership experience, she has seen firsthand how the lack of empathy can derail even the most promising careers and business endeavors. Her journey into empathy and EQ coaching began after losing a career to what she describes as "unempathic leadership." This experience propelled her to explore how empathy could transform leadership and business outcomes. Melissa's dedication to this cause is evident in her impressive educational background. She holds an MBA and a Master of Data Analytics, providing her with the tools to support her arguments with data-driven proof and sound business cases. She is currently pursuing a second doctorate in Interdisciplinary Leadership, with a dissertation focusing on Empathy in Leadership. This commitment to understanding and promoting empathy as a core leadership competency is further bolstered by her certifications in Change Management (ACMP/Prosci), the Society for Human Resource Management (CP), and Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice (DEI&J) from Cornell University. Empathy is Really about Becoming Better Human Beings Melissa's message is clear: the future of leadership lies in evolution, not extinction. Leaders who are willing to develop their empathy and emotional intelligence will be better equipped to navigate the complexities of the modern workplace. They will be able to build stronger, more resilient teams and create a culture of collaboration and innovation. In conclusion, the interview with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of empathy in leadership. As the business world continues to evolve, leaders must recognize that empathy is not a weakness but a strength that can drive success. By embracing empathy and emotional intelligence, leaders can create a more inclusive, productive, and innovative workplace where everyone has the opportunity to thrive. This interview is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of leadership and the role that empathy will play in shaping it. As Melissa so aptly puts it, "The more we all work together to be better human beings, the more we all have to gain." If you prefer to watch our video podcast with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, click here.

Welcome to another inspiring episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon. In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Dionne Baker, a remarkable woman entrepreneur making waves in the organic food industry with her company, DeeBee's Organics. Dr. Baker's journey is not just about building a successful business but about creating a healthier, more sustainable world for our children. Dr. Baker's story began most delightfully. Inspired by her child's idea to create tea popsicles, she set out to develop healthy popsicle snacks that kids would love. This simple yet powerful idea led to the birth of DeeBee's Organics. Today, DeeBee's offers a range of certified organic products that are mindfully sweetened and never compromise on taste or joy. Their commitment to quality and health has made DeeBee's a beloved brand among parents and children alike. DeeBee's Organics is not just another company but a certified B Corporation. This certification is a testament to Dr. Baker's commitment to doing business differently. While traditional businesses measure success primarily through sales and profits, Dr. Baker is equally concerned with the lives she impacts and the societal changes she helps drive. DeeBee's mission extends beyond providing healthy snacks; it is about contributing to a more sustainable and equitable world.

In our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we had the pleasure of hosting Lisen Stromberg, an award-winning author, speaker, and expert on leadership transformation. We delved into her groundbreaking new book, "Intentional Power," and explored the seismic shift in business leadership in the U.S. Written with two other amazing leadership experts, JeanAnn Nichols, and Corey Jones, with extensive research into the changes taking place in our society today, this is generationally-driven change in how people lead and follow. Intentional Power is about changing our minds about how to lead, guide, facilitate, enable (all different words about leadership) others get to where they and we need to go. Lisen's extensive leadership background and commitment to fostering meaningful change shine through in her work. With a wealth of experience spanning corporate roles, entrepreneurship, and advocacy, she has become a leading voice in redefining effective Leadership in today's dynamic business environment. She watches intentional leaders thrive, mobilizing the next generation of our workforce to aspire to higher purpose and profits. The Move to Intentional Power: the HEART®  Model The major drivers of these changes come from the way people value the actions of others. Lisen's research found that leaders using Intentional Power do several things exceptionally well. They offer a new model of leadership, the HEARTI® model, built on six core competencies: Humility, Empathy, Accountability, Resiliency, Transparency, and Inclusivity. During our conversation, Lisen highlighted a significant transformation in leadership styles. Traditional command-and-control hierarchies are giving way to more collaborative, facilitative, and supportive management approaches. This shift is not just a trend but a necessary evolution as today's workforce seeks more than just power and results. Employees are looking for significance, purpose, and meaning in their work. Most importantly, business is moving from shareholder capitalism to stakeholder capitalism. Our interview with Lisen Stromberg is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of Leadership. Her insights offer a compelling roadmap for leaders seeking to impact their organizations positively and beyond. Please tune in to On the Brink with Andi Simon to hear more about Lisen's journey and her vision for a more inclusive and purpose-driven approach to Leadership. If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Lisen Stromberg's video here: Thanks for joining us. Watch our other podcasts on https://www.simonassociates.net/category/podcast/

Welcome to another exciting episode of "On the Brink with Andi Simon!" In this episode, we are thrilled to have John M. Fisher, an extraordinary management development and soft skill trainer who also holds the title of chartered psychologist. His expertise in understanding and navigating change is unparalleled, making him a valuable resource for our discussion today. As a corporate anthropologist, I always look for individuals who genuinely grasp the challenges of embracing change and making it a friend rather than a foe. John Fisher is one such individual who has dedicated his career to helping people navigate the complexities of personal and professional transformation. John's unique approach, which is centered around maximizing personal understanding, has proven to be highly effective in helping individuals adapt to new demands in their business environments and personal lives. One of the most impactful tools John has developed is the Change Curve, a robust model that illustrates the stages people must go through to let go of the past and envision a new future. This model is instrumental in helping individuals and organizations understand the emotional and psychological journey involved in change, providing a clear pathway to move forward.   From Observation to Innovation, CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

I'm excited to share our latest episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, where I interview exceptional individuals to help others "get off the brink." This is actually our 400th episode and to focus on inspiring wellness is awesome, and reflects our committment to help people see, feel, and think in new ways so they can soar again and again. This episode features the extraordinary Dr. Renette Dallas, a true powerhouse in health and wellness. I think of Dr. Dallas as a Wellness Warrior leading a Healthy Living Revolution. She is inspiring wellness in each of us. We should all join her! Get your TRUE POP popcorn ready for our podcast. If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Dr. Dallas's video here: Dr. Dallas is a naturopathic doctor (N.D.), minister, author, lecturer, certified fitness trainer, and raw food chef. With a rich architecture and civil engineering background and a U.S. Air Force veteran, her diverse expertise makes her a dynamic force for change. She's best known for her innovative product, TRUE POP, an organic snack that embodies her preventive, holistic care philosophy. Her life's journey into wellness was triggered when she contracted tuberculosis and found that all the treatments were failing her.  Dr. Dallas is a multifaceted expert in holistic health, combining her extensive knowledge as a naturopathic doctor, minister, author, lecturer, certified fitness trainer, and raw food chef. Her nutritional and herbal detoxification and healing expertise has positioned her as a leading preventive, holistic care voice. Throughout our conversation, Dr. Dallas shared her journey and her mission to empower individuals, especially women, to take charge of their health and well-being through informed choices about food and lifestyle. Inspiring Wellness in Women  Much of our discussion focused on how Dr. Dallas inspires women to take charge of their health and well-being. She recognizes women's unique challenges, particularly in balancing various roles and responsibilities. Her holistic approach offers practical solutions that women can integrate into their daily lives. Dr. Dallas's work is not just about health, but about empowering women to prioritize their well-being and make informed choices about their health. Conclusion As a corporate anthropologist and advocate for women entrepreneurs, I found Dr. Dallas's story incredibly inspiring. She exemplifies how women leaders can bring innovative solutions to big problems. Tune in to this episode to discover how Dr. Dallas is leading the charge in healthcare reform and making a significant, inspiring impact. Join us on this journey of empowerment and transformation! You can learn more about Dr. Dallas and her products at Life by Dallas and check out TRUE POP on Amazon.

In a recent episode of our podcast, “On the Brink with Andi Simon,” I had the pleasure of speaking with Laura Grondin, an exceptional leader in the world of business and innovation. Laura is the CEO, chairman, and owner of a privately held industrial products company with two subsidiaries: Bingham & Taylor and Hartford Technologies. These companies supply diverse products, primarily to the water, gas, and automotive markets. Our conversation was all about how she has been able to navigate tradition and innovation. Visiting Laura's website is a journey into the heart of an enterprise that brilliantly merges tradition with forward-thinking innovation. Her companies, with a rich history spanning 175 years, epitomize the power of adapting to change while holding onto core values. This blend of the old and the new is not just a business strategy; it's a philosophy that permeates every aspect of their operations. How to Navigate Tradition and Innovation in Sustaining a Business? Laura's leadership showcases the essence of what it means to be an innovative, future-thinking leader. She understands the dynamics of organizations that thrive. Her ability to innovate and see the world as it evolves is extraordinary. This perspective is crucial, especially in an era where the future is uncertain, and many are apprehensive about what lies ahead. Laura shows us how you can navigate tradition and innovation, and build a better business.  As Babe Ruth once said, "Yesterday's homerun will not win tomorrow's game." This quote perfectly encapsulates the spirit of Laura's approach: you can be good today, but thriving tomorrow requires a whole new set of skills and vision. By 2005, Bingham & Taylor had already made significant strides towards gender diversity, becoming a 51% female-owned company. In 2021, Laura Grondin took over 100% ownership, ushering in a new era for women-owned natural gas and water businesses. V Technologies is a testament to the power of merging deep industry knowledge with modern innovation. It's fascinating to see how Laura's leadership has transformed these companies, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in traditionally male-dominated industries. Laura's influence extends beyond her business ventures. She is a prominent figure in the sailing community, serving as a member of the US Sailing Board of Directors and holding various positions, including chair of the international Melges 24 Class Association. Her passion for sailing has twice seen her compete at high levels, earning her nominations for the prestigious Rolex Yachtsman of the Year award. Laura's involvement in sailing reflects her competitive spirit and commitment to excellence, qualities that she brings to her business endeavors. Moreover, Laura tremendously advocates for women in business, particularly in STEM fields. Her involvement with organizations like C200, which supports female CEOs, underscores her dedication to empowering the next generation of women leaders. Through her work, Laura is paving the way for women in STEM and business, breaking down barriers and inspiring others to follow in her footsteps. How can "Sailing" Build a Mind-Set that Works So Well in Business? Let's think of the metaphor: we should all be trying to navigate tradition and innovation in our business. From my perspective, as a corporate anthropologist who works with organizations that need to adapt to fast-changing times, I was thrilled to share Laura's story. It is a powerful reminder of the importance of adaptability and forward-thinking in today's business landscape. Her ability to blend tradition with innovation sets her apart as a leader who respects the past and embraces the future with open arms. In our podcast, Laura shared insights into how her companies are innovating and creating new ways of doing things. This spirit of innovation is evident in every aspect of their operations, from product development to customer engagement. It's clear that under Laura's leadership, Bingham & Taylor and Hartford Technologies are not just keeping up with the times; they are setting the pace. The Power of Women Leaders as Successful CEOs Laura's journey is a testament to the power of women leaders in driving change and innovation. Her achievements inspire aspiring female CEOs, demonstrating that with vision, dedication, and a willingness to embrace change, it's possible to lead and succeed in any industry. Laura's story is not just about her achievements; it's about the broader impact of women leaders in transforming industries and driving progress. I encourage you to visit her website to learn more about her companies and their groundbreaking work. Laura Grondin's journey is a shining example of visionary CEOs shaping the future, one innovative step at a time. You can also watch our podcast on YouTube

Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I am so delighted you have joined us for this podcast with Donny Willis where we share his own inspirational advice for how to intentionally build a better life. In this enlightening podcast episode,  Donny Willis is a wonderful guest, who you may recognize as the "butter man" from the iconic 2019 Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Donny shares his remarkable journey of personal transformation, a story that resonates with many of us navigating our own life transitions. Donny is a pastor and the founder of a thriving church community in White Plains, NY. In this podcast, Donny and I dig deep into his own life's journey and how he helps others intentionally build a better life for themselves and those around them. You might also like to read Donny's book,  "Good, Butter, Best,  From  Dream  to  Reality." What are Those Universal Themes of Life Transitions? Throughout the episode, Donny Willis and I delve into the universal themes of life transitions, the complexities of decision-making, and the pivotal role of emotional intelligence in adapting to change. Donny underscores the importance of seizing new opportunities as they arise and the transformative power of building and nurturing relationships to support personal growth and community resilience. We often forget that we are in control. Yes, we can intentionally build a better life if we think about our own personal story and continuously build that story around self-improvement. Donny also shares with us his seven life-lessons that each of us can apply to create a better life for ourselves and those we care about. If you prefer to watch the On the Brink with Andi Simon Podcast, you can find Donny Willis's video here: Thanks for joining us. Read the entire script on the blog page at https://www.simonassociates.net/category/podcast/ From Observation to Innovation, CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

Hear how Traca Savadogo found a new path to transform her life. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," the podcast where we delve into the transformative power of self-discovery and personal growth. I'm your host, Andi Simon, and today, I am thrilled to bring you an inspiring conversation with Traca Savadogo, a renowned relationship strategist who specializes in guiding individuals on their journey to find themselves. In this episode, we'll explore Traca's fascinating journey of self-discovery, a journey that has transformed her from a place of struggle to becoming a beacon of empowerment for contless others. Traca's story is not just about overcoming obstacles; it's about embracing the power within oneself to rewrite the narrative of one's life, a power that can lead to profound transformation and joy. Join us as we listen to Traca's journey of self-discovery. Traca's path to becoming a sought-after relationship strategist was challenging. Like many of us, she experienced doubt, uncertainty, and despair. However, through these experiences, she uncovered a profound truth: the importance of reflecting on one's own story to transform it into one where you are the hero, not the victim. One of the pivotal moments in Traca's journey was her realization of the value of connecting with strangers. As a successful TEDx speaker, she shared her insights on "Why You Should Regularly Talk with Strangers," a topic that resonated deeply with audiences around the world. Through her experiences of stepping outside her comfort zone and engaging with unfamiliar faces, Traca discovered a wealth of wisdom and perspective that enriched her life in ways she never imagined. She had to embrace vulnerability. Should you? During our conversation, Traca opens up about the profound impact of embracing vulnerability and authenticity in her own life. She shares how she embarked on a journey of rediscovering herself, shedding layers of self-doubt and fear to reveal the bold, brave, and ultimately happy woman others saw in her all along. Through her work as a relationship strategist, Traca empowers individuals to navigate the complexities of self-discovery with courage and resilience. She emphasizes the importance of cultivating a deep self-awareness and acceptance, recognizing that true transformation begins from within. As we delve deeper into Traca's story, we uncover invaluable insights and practical strategies for anyone seeking to embark on their journey of self-discovery. From overcoming limiting beliefs to embracing vulnerability and cultivating meaningful connections, Traca offers a wealth of wisdom that will inspire and empower listeners to embrace their journey of personal growth and transformation. Join us as we embark on a transformative journey with Traca Savadogo, exploring the power of self-discovery, resilience, and the profound impact of rewriting your story. This is "On the Brink with Andi Simon," and I'm delighted to have you with us on this incredible journey of growth and possibility. Watch and listen to our conversation here Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants  

"Belonging to the Brand" sets forth Mark Schaefer's thinking about Innovative Marketing and Community Building. Let me introduce you to Mark Schaefer, who needs no introduction. With a career spanning decades, Mark has been a trailblazer, a thought leader, and a guide through the ever-shifting terrain of marketing and branding. From the dawn of social media to the rise of influencer marketing, Mark has not only witnessed these seismic shifts but has also been at the forefront, deciphering trends, and charting courses for success. But what sets Mark apart isn't just his keen insight into what's happening now—it's his uncanny ability to anticipate what's coming next. While others may struggle to keep pace with the rapid evolution of our industry, Mark has a knack for spotting emerging trends and technologies before they hit the mainstream. In this podcast, we will tap into that foresight, exploring what's happening today and what lies on the horizon. Megatrends Shaping the Future of Marketing A core theme we'll explore is bringing people together and building new communities and shared experiences. In an increasingly fragmented and polarized world, Mark understands the power of connection and is passionate about helping brands forge deeper, more meaningful relationships with their audiences. But this podcast isn't just about theory and speculation—it's about practical insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own marketing efforts. So, whether you're a seasoned marketer looking to stay ahead of the curve or a newcomer eager to learn from the best, I invite you to join us on this journey through the ever-changing marketing and branding landscape. Together, we'll be navigating tomorrow—and shaping the future of our industry along the way. The Most Human Company Wins As we wrapped up our conversation, it became clear that despite the technological advancements, the core of marketing remains unchanged: the most human company wins. In a world where AI is becoming ubiquitous, maintaining a human-centric approach is what will set successful brands apart. To learn more about Innovative Marketing, we recommend these: Podcast: Are you Ready for the Marketing Rebellion by Mark Schaefer Podcast: Are You Ready for the Next Data-Driven-Digital Marketing Strategy? by Patrick Van Gorder Podcast: Fran Biderman-Gross—Feeling Frustrated With Business? Maybe It Is Time For A New Marketing Strategy?  

Hear how Myrna Soto combined her great people skills with IT and business.  Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we delve deep into the minds of industry leaders who are shaping the future. In this episode, I'm thrilled to bring a remarkable individual who has managed to shape businesses blending her people skills with her high-tech wisdom. Please allow me to introduce you to Myrna Soto. Myrna is Founder and CEO of Apogee Executive Advisors, an advisory firm providing strategic consulting the areas of Technology Risk, Cybersecurity, Technology Integrations, Digital Transformation, and Enterprise Risk Management. Are there lessons you can learn to propel your own success in IT and Business? How can women thrive in the complex world of IT and Business?  Watch our conversation here Myrna Soto is featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success How to connect with Myrna You can reach Myrna on LinkedIn or through her website ForgePointCap.com. To learn more about this topic, we recommend these podcasts and blog: Eisha Tierney Armstrong—With The Rise Of AI, Professional Services Are Turning Into Products. Are You Ready?  Lorraine Hariton—How Can You Build A Better Workplace For Women? 10 Tips To Empower Women In Male-Dominated IT Industry Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Esther Aguilera is one of the 102 amazing women leaders in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, In a world where success is often portrayed as a linear path, Esther Aguilera's journey stands out. Born to Mexican immigrants, she defied the odds and rose to significant positions in Washington, in non-profits, and in business. . Her story is a testament to the power of determination, self-belief, and the unwavering pursuit of one's dreams, inspiring us all to embrace our own unique paths to success. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," where we delve deep into the stories of remarkable individuals who have defied odds and shattered barriers to carve their path to success. In this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Esther Aguilera, a trailblazer whose journey took her first to numerous positions in Washington, D.C., to the helm of the Latino Corporate Directors Association. Her openness to new ventures and a willingness to try unfamiliar leadership roles have not only transformed her life but have also paved the way for countless others. Esther's journey is one defined by resilience and tenacity. Growing up as the daughter of Mexican immigrants, she learned early on the value of hard work and perseverance. However, her unwavering confidence and belief in herself truly set her apart. As you listen to our conversation, consider our thoughts about "imposter syndrome." Throughout her career, Esther grappled with feelings of being an imposter - a notion that she was never fully competent, yet always completely confident. However, this blend of humility and self-assurance propelled her forward, allowing her to navigate the corporate landscape with grace and determination. A profound commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion lies at the heart of Esther's journey. Throughout her career, she has been a tireless advocate for Latino representation, from building diverse teams to expanding the seats held by Latinos in corporate boardrooms, recognizing the immense value that diverse perspectives bring. Under her leadership, the Latino Corporate Directors Association rapidly expanded, becoming the premier resource for Latino talent on corporate boards. Esther's unwavering dedication to championing diversity and inclusion is a powerful reminder of the importance of representation and opportunity for all of us. You will hear a woman who knew that Latinos were not moving into leadership positions, and she would help them open doors and find pathways to change these limitations. Embark on a transformative journey with Esther Aguilera, a leader whose story resonates with us all. Her journey inspires us to embrace our strengths, confront our doubts, and forge our path with unwavering confidence. Through her reflections, insights, and profound wisdom, Esther invites us to challenge the status quo, embrace our authenticity, and dare to dream boldly. Join us as we learn from her experiences and find inspiration for our own journeys. Watch and listen to our conversation here   How to connect with Esther You can reach Esther on LinkedIn Or, email her at estheraguilera@me.com Additional resources for you Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD. Read more about it at http://www.womenmeanbusinessbook.com My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Our book website: www.andisimon.com Read the transcript of our podcast here. (Edited for readability) Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. However, if you're stuck or stalled. Our job is to bring you interesting people. And I have a wonderful woman here today who's going to help you see, feel and think in some new ways because you don't have a story like hers. And she is an extraordinary role model. So how you can overcome life, life's adversities and rise. We're going to talk about a bunch of things that are going to touch you as she has touched me, and I think this is such an exciting time. Esther Aguilera is here with us today, and I am very excited because she is a part of our new book, Women Mean Business. Esther comes to us with the perspective of somebody who has had a journey, and I'm going to have her tell you about it, but let me introduce her. She is currently a senior advisor at Altura Capital. Previously, she was president and CEO of the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and she built the first national network of Latino CEOs, corporate directors and C-level leaders. She oversaw the organization's rapid expansion to become the premier resource for Latino talent primed for the boardroom to accelerate the conversation of Latino inclusion in America's boardrooms. She's a thoughtful, transformational leader, and she's known for driving impact and results. She is a two-time chief executive and a two time executive director, and she comes to us with a 32- year track record, executing strategic business plans and leading high performance teams. And she's going to tell you more. As you know, my desire is for them to tell you about their journey. It gives you a context for understanding the challenges that she's facing and the way she's overcoming them. But she also tells us that she brings a deep experience and understanding of the intersection between the charitable, business and government sectors. And I think this is really exciting. She's worked with members of Congress, cabinet members, corporate CEOs and directors, nonprofits, and associations, and she's just a superb-powerful person. Welcome, Esther. Thank you for being with me today. Esther Aguilera: It is a great pleasure to be with you, Andy. Andi Simon: Tell the listeners and the viewers, who is Esther? You tell me your story. And I think it's a very important one to set the context for your own journey, the challenges you've overcome and how you thrive, and the joy you bring to others in the process. Who's Esther? Esther Aguilera: Thank you for having me. And thank you for the question. So, you know, as you mentioned, I have had the privilege of working for our nation's most powerful leaders from members of Congress, and cabinet members. I've organized meetings with the US President and worked with the top leaders in the nonprofit space, corporate space, and working with corporate directors. But my path was not a typical one. My family moved to the US from Mexico when I was four years old, so I'm an immigrant. We were actually undocumented when we first came. It's a long story, but needless to say, I'm the proud daughter of a landscape laborer and a garment worker. So, we had a very humble upbringing. But we clearly strived to do our best and contribute and get a good education, which is what landed me in college and also, I studied my first public policy. It's not something that growing up, I would have ever seen myself doing. I didn't even know what it was. By the way, when I moved, I moved to Washington, D.C. after college, and my parents didn't really understand what I did, and neither did my family. But here I was in Washington, D.C. We moved here in 1990 right after college. And that's where oh my gosh, so many worlds opened up. So many opportunities and a lot of scary things. I mean, good, scary things, but new things that really opened up all new apertures and experiences and opportunities again, that I enjoy today. Andi Simon: But, when you shared with me your story, you said public policy wasn't something you're familiar with. How did you get to Washington? Esther Aguilera: Well, I was very, very lucky. First I was visiting Washington, D.C., and I had a professor who I contacted and I said, hey, I'm in the nation's capital. And he said, well, you need to meet with some of the premier organizations. And he made some connections for me that I was literally just planning to have some informational meetings and then travel back to California to start looking for a job. And I took the plunge. I had some great meetings. The first organization was a National Council of La Raza, which is the premier today known as Latinos, U.S. and it's a public policy organization. I went for the informational interview, and they offered me a job. And I was just one in shock and thinking, oh my gosh, I'm moving to Washington, D.C. Is that something for me? But you know what? I took the plunge. And this was another great theme that I like to talk about is I've had some different pivots and new areas and new places. And what's been wonderful was really embracing new challenges has been how I have been able to broaden my horizons and find new opportunities. Andi Simon: Yes. Good. But it is interesting because as we think about it, your intention wasn't to come to Washington and get a job. It was to go discover; you were curious. You're an explorer and you really didn't know what the possibilities were. It was an interesting opportunity for you to land something unexpectedly that has turned into a whole career trajectory for you. And I have a hunch several times during your career, things sort of popped in you and you thought that could be interesting. Where did your career go from that first destination? Esther Aguilera: Well, I was lucky to land a job on Capitol Hill. I worked in the US Congress and became the executive director of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. I have had leadership roles since my mid 20s. That's what I love about Capitol Hill is you get great opportunities early and you are contributing a great deal. And so, that came about also with mentors who put my name in the hat and said, hey, I think Esther would be a great candidate for this. When I was already working on the Hill and when they asked me, is this something you're interested in, things went through my mind of doubting. Am I ready for this? That's such a big challenge, such a big role. But I raised my hand and said, yes, I will take on the challenge and contribute everything I've got. Andi Simon: It's interesting because that's one of your five wisdoms. Raise your hand. It puts yourself out there for new opportunities. You don't really know what's happening and what is going to happen to you, but you're comfortable enough in yourself to say, of course I can. I don't know where that is and I don't know how we're going to do it, but somehow I know that I can succeed at some level. What are people expecting? Were they clear about their expectations or they just trusted you to rise to the occasion? Esther Aguilera: With every role and pivot that I've had, and I will go into some of those as well, there's always been one. I already had some great ground training in policy and writing and research. And then I worked as a legislative assistant. So, I had some of the base groundwork. And then you take that and the important thing what I tell young people is don't go into your next role because you meet 100% of the experience and expectations. You look at a job description and you want to have space to grow, but you've got the foundation and you take that and you build on it and that's okay to ask for help. It's okay to feel vulnerable to say hey, I can do 50, 60% of this, and I'm going to need some guidance. I can do the rest with that guidance. And it's important to feel that you can be both honest with yourself and know that you can do it. Don't let that hold you back. Andi Simon:  Well, I couldn't agree more. We can compare career tracks, but it is interesting listening to people talk today about needing mentors or sponsors. I never had any. Did you have them along your journey? Esther Aguilera: Well, when we talk about sponsors, these are people who put your name in the hat for you. And so my professor who first said, hey, I'm going to make this introduction. And then, of course, you step right in., I had a member of Congress put my name in the hat. Another mentor of mine, a male mentor who said this is someone who could take on that role. So I think they saw something in me that I probably wouldn't have raised my hand. So those sponsorships are so important. And then, down the line. Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting because you didn't even go looking for them to sponsor you or mentor you. You just were good at what you were doing and kept showing up, curious, whatever the attributes were that they were looking for. And there you were. And that was really what's exciting about it is that you don't have to be intentionally groveling up that ladder. You can just be really good at what you do. People see it and then offer you something and you say, I can do that. And then you rise. And it's very exciting. Esther Aguilera: I agree, but I also think it's important. There are so many lessons learned on the journeys that I'm an open book and I love to share. And that while sponsorships are important, let's not rely on them and make sure one keeps your resume circulating and raise your hand. And oftentimes, making a transition is really tough sometimes. But keep your eyes and ears open. Keep opportunities open even when you love what you're doing. It's okay. You're not being disrespectful to your current employer.  You are inquisitive and want to grow. I'm in the book Women Mean Business and my wisdoms have been around again and be open to new opportunities, new frontiers because that is how you learn and grow. Andi Simon: So one of the things that you and I talked about was a theme. There are two themes that I want to make sure that we dig into. One is about where Latinos are today. But the one just prior to that is that we mentioned the fact that you were the child of immigrants, and you have led some of the most consequential organizations in the US. Did you bring a particular perspective that was extremely valuable? Were you just a young person coming out of college? How did you blend all of this so that you were you? Because I have a hunch of those who were sponsoring you, mentoring you, saw something unique in how you saw the world. Something that you can share. Is it something you can reflect on? Esther Aguilera: Some of my early areas of motivation were really looking at women and how there were two standards for what women can do versus men. And I saw this growing up, and I always kind of fought against it or thought against it and said, why is there that difference? That was one of the things that just kind of kept me going. But, at the end of the day, I was always very impact oriented. I always wanted to leave a mark and a contribution. We all have superpowers. I've had opportunities after working on Capitol Hill.  I went to work at the Department of Energy, running the procurement office. And in that role, I came in to lead a team of federal employees and gave them real purpose. We reorganized the office and built a high performing team that was very impactful, and mission driven. It was a little lost, but the Secretary of Energy put me in charge and said, I want you to fix this. And it's where I discovered some of my superpowers. I was given that opportunity, I already knew that I could drive change on the legislative front. And I was thinking, how am I going to drive change here? And it's through people and it's through leadership and promoting people for leadership. And in that role, I later went to run a larger group, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, which is an internship fellowship organization for young people to get experience on Capitol Hill. I had so many doors open to me since with my experience, I wanted to make sure others had that as well. And so this organization, I grew it from $4 million to $10 million. And at every stage just transformed and built an even better, solid foundation for the organization, for the future. There again, it's about building a high performing team and impact. So, I found that my superpower is driving growth and impact. But my secret weapon is building high performing teams where people can contribute. And we find ways of finding where they can excel and contribute and grow to the overall having a clear purpose mission that everyone has a role to play in. Andi Simon: I have several leadership academies I've been running for many years for clients. And one of the things we talk about is that a leader really needs other followers. A leader can't do anything alone. And so, as I'm listening to you, I'm saying you have some magic to empower and enable and engage others so they can rise higher than where they are growing. They don't have to move up a ladder. They need to grow personally in their skills, their confidence that you said it so well, their purpose, their mission to have strong values and to see how their actions are purpose driven and they can actually become part of a team that's delivering extraordinary results. And I have a hunch you had great pleasure when you were doing that, building those teams, and building those people. Right? Esther Aguilera: That really was. That's when you find it's your superpower when you really enjoy doing it. And of course, I had another pivot to then start an organization with corporate directors. And we formed the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and that I was able to start from scratch and grow it tenfold to become the premier organization that really elevates because it's so important to have leadership roles and to have decision making roles and have a seat at the table. Because if you don't have a seat at the table, you don't matter, that's the bottom line. And it's part of important work that I'm really proud of now doing even more after having built a really solid foundation, all of the pillars that lead towards the impact and the team there to then take it on. Andi Simon: Well, all of this then leads to the community. You and I spoke about how the Latino community developed, grown? Where is it going? How do we get access to positions of power and equal pay for Latinas and Latinos?  You've had a wonderful solo career and now you're pulling along lots of others to be able to actually optimize their success as well. Share with us a little of your perspective. What do you see happening? Esther Aguilera: Well, first, this has always been the second largest demographic in the US. For 32 years have been working to advance the Latino community in the US from all angles, from legislative leadership and education across the board. And I have to say that in the 90s, we were called, and even the 80s, The Sleeping Giant because it was a large group, but still was more behind the scenes. And I don't think we have advanced as much as we can, and we need to. That's why I'm such a believer in having Latinas and Latinos in positions of power and authority because you have to have both a bottom up from grassroots kind of building to leadership as well and have those important roles across the board. This has to be in government and whether it's in the private sector, in the largest corporations of the country and so that's an important ingredient. Today, Latinos are 62 million Americans. This is close to 20% of the population and a GDP of nearly 3.5 trillion, which is the same as a fifth largest country. It's massive and yet we're still not in the positions of power, and we're still, especially Latinas, are least paid. In fact, the pay gap is the lowest for Native American women and Latinas. Native American women earn $0.51 to the dollar that men make in the same jobs. And Latinos are $0.54. Other groups come in and that hasn't changed much in the past 20 years. So there's still that huge gap. The boardrooms and corporate boardrooms, Latinos are the single group of any other women's group, any other demographic group with the least amount of board seats and representation in that boardroom, Latinos and Latinos alike. I think that's why my philosophy here is that and this is why we started the Latino Corporate Directors Association that you can't complain about. You can't say, well, it's the search firms is this and we keep hearing we can't find qualified Latinos for the boardroom. You have to point the finger this way and do something about it. So that's why a group of pioneering corporate directors launched it and then brought me on board to build it because we have to be the owners of our destiny. And we can't wait for others to solve these things. Andi Simon: It's easy to complain and it's easier to sort of look at history, but I think you're already beginning to see some small steps to move the needle a little bit. Anything that you can share that is exciting to you? Do you want to share your superpowers with others? Do you see opportunities opening up? You said we're still the sleeping giant. You do have a whole lot of people here in this country ready to do some really exciting things. What are you thinking? Esther Aguilera: Oh my gosh, we have so much talent.  In every sector and every industry, it's about really showcasing and lifting up the talent that's there so that we take away the narrative and excuse. We can find them right there. It's groundbreaking with Latino corporate directors. I'm also advising Alpha, which is the largest Latino professional association in the country. It is the oldest and largest with over 115,000 members around the country. And here is an organization that we already have so much, membership and visibility within the community. But it's about letting others in other communities know, here's where you can find the pipeline and the talent for anything you need, and lifting up and showcasing profiles and taking away again that narrative that there's plenty of talent, there's more to grow. There is potential and talent there. And we're here to help make it easy for you to find it. Andi Simon: You know, I'm thinking about two situations.  When I mentioned to you there was a woman at Washington University, when I spoke there on Women Mean Business, who had gotten a scholarship to a high profile Latino woman who had gone to college, the first from her family. She had gotten a wonderful scholarship to a very high profile private school, and then had gotten into Washington University with a big scholarship and was very lonely. And when we were talking, she said, I'm all alone. And it's very hard to have to be here without a community of others like me who understand the journey I've been on, and I'm not quite sure where I'm going. Am I going back to make money for my family and my community? It was the most profound. And then I gave a talk down in Houston and Arturo Lopez, a Vistage chair that I knew brought in a whole group of Latinos, all of whom are struggling to be heard. And I think that the nature of both media and what we talk about, how we celebrate, where we get the positive superpowers and how we acknowledge it, needs something to boost it. And as you and I were talking about Alpha and others, it's not a bad time to think through how to rally other Latino to help build a network of mentors for others. She said, I don't have a role model. I have no one. I've had no role model through most of my education, and I felt I was amazed at her boldness and her bravery, but I also knew that she was going to have to work hard to find some community to belong to that she could lift herself up. So there's a real need. We're going to rise. We need to have others help us. And I've heard that so often from the folks like yourself in our book, who said, if I rise, I lift others. They basically can't do it without others. That's why I said to who's your sponsor? Who's your mentor? And how do I get help? And they're not even women. They were all guys. And so there's a real need out there. So now with Altura Capital, are you seeing things that are shareable? You're in the private equity world now. Esther Aguilera: Yes. My latest pivot, what's exciting about my pivot to private equity was one in every one of these paths, I have honed in more around my brand, and my brand has been to really lift up others. And the firm that I work with is Latina led, Latina founder, CEO, private equity. Her name is Monica Mantilla. And I always say she's probably the pioneer Latina who was founder, CEO and managing partner of a private equity firm for 18 years.  The way that she invests in companies and again, private equity, you already have to have a profitable company that's going that we can invest in to grow. But, she also has a social impact mission. She invests in low, moderate-income communities that have great businesses and can invest in them to then also create better jobs, better pay, better benefits, and they track that impact. So here we have a firm that's not only creating value for shareholder, for investors and for the company, but also an impact and community. That is my brand. So I always have to feel really strong and passionate about what I'm pushing, what I'm driving, and who I'm working with and for. And so I found each step of the way has always been that for me. I always tell folks, find what are what drives you, what kind of team and environment do you want to be part of, but also how do you help create that team and environment? Because we're all players in it, developing high performing teams. Meaning means that everyone brings something to the table and you want to harness it, and you want to continue to nurture it, to continue to produce even more, because you feel part of that mission and drive of what we're all achieving together. Andi Simon: You're a real multiplier, aren't you? It isn't enough for you to have a job and to do things. It's only really good if I have a team, however big that might be, who also are empowered and engaged to multiply and do more together and better. This is really exciting. Esther Aguilera: But it wasn't always something you and I talked about as well. It wasn't always an easy journey, right? You know, a big part was, I've been thinking a lot about the imposter syndrome and early in my career. Oh, my gosh, I was there really. Two big things to overcome. You know, one here is an immigrant working in the US Capitol, what am I doing here? And someone is going to expose me. I found that, in fact, I don't like the term imposter syndrome. There are two sides to it.  I think most of it is self-inflicted. Let's say as an immigrant, you come here and you're already feeling like an outsider, and you don't always have the resources to really properly show up and build that confidence that you need to step into some new roles, but you have to find it yourself. And so in terms of the imposter syndrome, as I mentioned, there's kind of two sides to it. I think that other people probably see a lot more. When you're feeling that, people see a lot more value and worth and contributions, and you do it yourself. So I see it as an opportunity to turn it around and say, okay, well, what am I bringing to the table and how do I own my own worth and my own contribution? So, the imposter syndrome, you're only diminishing your self-worth. It's about building that up and then building a network and supporters around you that are also going to lift you up. Because we all need that. It's okay to ask for help. You can say, I don't feel good today, but you're always going to have ups and downs. That's part of life. It's not always going to be rosy. Andi Simon: But, as you reflect on your movie, we were talking about how life is a movie and you don't want to end up regretting things.  You have been able to champion gently yourself, slowly through many pivots, and each one adding richness to your life. And you add richness to that. And it isn't as if there's a straight line. I mean, one of the things that I think is so true is the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. I look to your wisdoms and I go, oh my goodness, Esther is a wise woman because that's exactly what we're saying.  It's the unknown. Usually your brain fights it, flees it. Fear fiercely denies it. Appease it. You have an amygdala that would like to hijack it, but instead you've embraced it and you've written a new story for yourself where it's okay, I cannot fail. I just embrace the new and I am going to succeed. Impostor syndrome could be a whole other podcast. I don't think I truly don't believe in it. I do think that people are always a little uncomfortable and it's okay to be uncomfortable. But in fact, the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. And that's right and once you turn lemons into lemonade, let's do it. What's the worst that can happen? Well, it didn't work. So what? And everything you've touched is turned to good, better and best. And so you've got a wonderful career, Esther. If you want to leave the folks with a couple of really cool, actionable things, one, two or three, other than forget your imposter syndrome, we don't need it. What would you share with them based on a beautiful life story? Esther Aguilera:  Well, certainly one, build that board for yourself around you and that group of friends, both peers and a network that you could be there for them. They're there for you, too. Don't be afraid to ask for help or to say, hey, I'm really happy where I am right now, but maybe I should start putting my resume out and privately talking to people about what I should be doing next. Because unless you put your name out there, whether it's for maybe something new or for a boardroom, people aren't going to have you on the top of  their mind always, unless you bring it up or let them know, and that in your own mind kind of helps to put you in a position where you can say, hey, I'm ready for this pivot. And the last is, those pivots could be scary, but at the end of the day, they do open new opportunities. Andi Simon: Yes. And opportunity is exactly what they are. They're not problems. They're all opportunities. And they are in front of you waiting for you to say, I'm cool, let's try it. And that becomes a great, great journey. This has been such fun. Thank you for joining us, our audiences, and Esther shared with us today some really profound opportunities that she has lived through with her superpowers. Esther, if they'd like to reach out to you for talking, experience, consulting, any kind of work with Altura, how could they reach you? Is there a website or is it through LinkedIn? Esther Aguilera: I think the best way is LinkedIn. Esther Aguilera, and I look forward to hearing from individuals. It has been my great pleasure and thank you for inviting me. I'm honored and just really admire your work. Thank you for what you do for us all. Andi Simon: Well, thank you for that kind, kind ending here. Esther and I have truly enjoyed being in Women Mean Business. And I think that the most interesting part of a book is you don't really know where it's going, like life. It takes you along. And that's what's happened here. And every time I open it and I read some things, they're all different. There are 500 of them. They really reflect very different perspectives, but very enriching ones and the energy and the force there. So when you read Esther's, you're going to say, of course the opportunities are here. Who's stopping me except me? And that becomes really important. Let me wrap up for all of you who come to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Thank you. You pushed us into the top 5% of podcasts globally, and I admire that for you because that's your benefit to it. We keep looking for great people that can help us see, feel and think in new ways. Send them along. Your emails are wonderful, and I keep looking for more people like Esther and others who can share with you their life's journey so that you can see how others have tackled the opportunities or the challenges that they faced. Remember, Women Mean Businesses is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. So are all my other books there as well. So if we can help you take your observations and turn them into innovations, let us know. It's been a pleasure to share the day with you, Esther. I'll say goodbye and thank you so much. Goodbye, everybody. Esther Aguilera: Bye bye everyone. Thank you. Andi.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, the podcast where we delve into the stories, insights and wisdom of remarkable individuals who are trailblazing paths in the corporate world. I'm thrilled to have you join us today as we embark on a transformative journey with none other than Sandra Quince, an exemplary woman executive whose journey is nothing short of inspiring. Sandra Quince's narrative is a testament to resilience, determination and unwavering commitment to personal and professional growth. With a career spanning decades in the corporate landscape, Sandra has navigated through challenges and shattered glass ceilings and emerged as a beacon of empowerment for women everywhere. In today's episode, we have the privilege of unraveling the layers of Sandra's remarkable journey. From her humble beginnings to her ascent to executive leadership, Sandra's story is a poignant reminder of the power of perseverance and self-belief in the face of adversity. As we delve deeper into Sandra's narrative, we cannot help but be captivated by her profound insights into leadership and inclusivity. Sandra's wisdom transcends traditional notions of authority and is rooted in empathy, compassion, and a deep-seated commitment to fostering inclusivity and acceptance. Throughout our conversation, Sandra imparts invaluable lessons on the art of influence and the importance of cultivating diverse and inclusive cultures within organizations. Her belief in the transformative power of diversity is a guiding light for leaders aspiring to create environments where every voice is heard, valued, and respected. Moreover, Sandra's mantra of "owning your career" is a powerful reminder that in a world where opportunities are abundant yet fiercely competitive, it's imperative to take charge of our own destinies. Sandra's journey is a testament to the fact that when we assert ourselves and take ownership of our paths, we pave the way for success on our own terms. As we navigate the intricacies of Sandra's narrative, it becomes evident that her journey is not merely about personal triumphs but about paving the way for future generations of women leaders. Through her mentorship, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to championing diversity and inclusion, Sandra continues to drive positive change in the corporate landscape. I invite you to join us on this enriching journey as we unravel the tapestry of leadership with Sandra Quince. Her story is a testament to the transformative power of resilience, wisdom, and the unwavering belief in one's ability to shape their destiny. Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here (edited for readability and grammatical correctness): Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I am Andi Simon, your podcast host, and your guide. Remember, my job is to help you get off the brink. I find people who are going to do just that to help you. These words are very intentional: See, feel, and think in new ways so that you can change them. And I often tell people the brain hates me. It doesn't want to change. I'd rather stay where you are, even when you know it's better to be different and do something better. It's challenging for you to learn new techniques and begin to thrive with them. So today, I have a wonderful woman, Sandra Quince, with us. You can see her beautiful smile. I will tell you about her briefly, but she's also part of our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. So I will show you her picture here, which is gorgeous, and she has a beautiful quote. Remember, our book has 102 women with 500 wisdoms to help you start and spark your success. It's a beautiful book.  It's selling like crazy, but her wisdom is compelling. "Be a leader who creates an environment where everyone can bring their best selves and thrive."  Sandra." loves the quote by Mahatma Gandhi. "The greatest of humanity is not in being human, but in being humane ."I share that with you because I've been doing a great deal of podcasting lately, and people say we must become more humane. Corporations have to become more concerned about their employees' and communities' well-being. Culture has to begin to focus on "we," not "I," and I can say those words, but we have to do them.  Let me share Sandra Quince's bio, and then she'll tell you about her journey because it's beautiful. Sandra Quince is the business enablement and leader on loan and loan program executive responsible for leading business operations across workforce development and arts and heritage while also serving as program executive for the Leader on Loan Program, which is for Bank of America.  Prior to this, she was the chief executive officer for Paradigm for Parity through Bank of America's Leader on Loan Program, and she was responsible for leading all elements of Paradigm for Parity, strategic plan, financial, programmatic, and operational performance. She'll tell you more about P4P because it is a huge opportunity for you to understand what it can do and what you can do. She worked with the coalition's co-chairs and board of directors to oversee and execute the organization's vision and growth plans. She's been featured in Essence CEO, World Magazine, Fast Company and interviewed on Fintech, Fintech TV, BBC, and Bloomberg Radio. She's just an outstanding leader in her community, through boards, and through her actions. And what I'm so excited about today is that I've developed a program to help companies change their cultures, not by thinking about diversity, equity, and inclusion as a program, but instead as a mindset, as a way of seeing the opportunities that come from having lots of different ideas, being more innovative, inclusive. And humans love to belong. They don't want to be outliers. They don't want to be necessarily forgotten. So, how do we build that kind of culture at a time when D and I are under a bit of siege? People are wondering why we're doing it. We're doing it because it is transformative for ourselves and our businesses. Sandra, thank you for joining me today. It's an honor and a pleasure. Sandra Quince: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here with you. And thank you so much for having me on today. Andi Simon: Isn't it fun? I'd love you to tell the listener or the viewer about your journey because it sets the stage for what we'll discuss next. Who is Sandra Quince? Sandra Quince: Yeah, so thank you for that. My journey really started; I have been talking a lot about and reflecting on what makes Sandra who she is or who has had an influence on her. And so it brings me back to my childhood. I am a product of a military father. And so we traveled around a lot. And I think that experience in itself, because you meet so many different people and get a chance to interact with different cultures really helps to build who you are and helps you to see the world through a very different lens. I also think about the lessons that my great-grandmother taught me of being just a really kind and strong woman while being kind and being very cognizant of the fact that you're not better than others. It was part of my lessons growing up: how to be resilient and bounce back from things. She was a powerful woman, and while not formally educated, she was extremely intelligent. But then, it also taught me to stand up for myself, advocate for myself, and speak up for myself. And so that's where I draw that inner strength. When I became the CEO of Paradigm for Parity, that didn't happen by happenstance, right? There were a series of things that led up to that. But earlier in my career, Andrea, one of the things that I didn't understand was that when you put your head down and you're working hard, that wasn't enough. And I showed up to laugh. Andi Simon: I know, I know the feeling well.  Sandra Quince: So you show up. I was a first-generation college student. I was a first-generation corporate. I needed help understanding the rules of the road. And while I had these beautiful life lessons, I wasn't sure how to employ them at that moment. And I came into the workforce thinking, if you just put your head down and do really good work, you will get promoted. And while doing really good work is a part of what we all should do, because that's table stakes, that is not the only path that leads you to promotion. That is just one part of many different things we must consider in the workplace. And so I did learn that I needed to not just do good work, but I also needed to understand what I wanted out of my career. I needed to understand how to advocate for myself, employ the life lessons I learned earlier as a child, and speak up and talk about the good work I was doing. So think about how are you telling your story. How are you telling others about the work you're leading and doing but adding value to your organization and advocating for yourself? And I learned the power of networking and sponsorship. And so all that and part of the wisdom that I shared, and you touched on a little bit as we talked about this session, is really about owning your career. I learned a valuable lesson that I have to focus 100% on my career. Andi Simon: I do love that. And I've been using it. I've been sharing it. My grandkids, even my daughters, because we are all going through life's journey, and people put you in boxes, and they are pleased putting you in that box and thinking that's who you are. I coached a woman who got stuck and stalled in her career not long ago, and I said, you still need to take ownership of it. She said, what does that mean? I said, well, you assumed, like Sandra did, that if I work hard, I'll be noticed, and therefore, I'll get promoted. And you're upset that others you've trained have gotten promoted without any of your experience. It's a recurring theme, particularly for women, but not only for women. Now the question becomes, as you're thinking about that career, somehow you moved into an area that has become honorable in some ways, perhaps by design or by chance, in helping others understand the power of a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging workplace. And I say those words to make them come alive. It's not denied; it's about a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging place for people. It's not a program. It's a place where we love to come to work. Talk a lot to our audience about how one migrates there and then owns it, and then what do we learn from it? Can you share, please? Sandra Quince:  Yeah, absolutely. So, you're absolutely right. Diversity, equity and inclusion is not about a program. It's about creating the right ecosystem for your company and your employees to thrive. And the reason why companies should be engaged in diversity, equity and inclusion is because, number one, you will be more profitable. There are studies that have been around for 30-plus years that prove this point. Companies that engage in this work put the right resources behind it. It's not just lip service. They're 30% to 40% times more profitable. And why are they more profitable? Well, they're more profitable because they create the right ecosystem for their employees to show up and do their best work. So what does that mean? That means that your employees are in an environment where they can give their best and do their best work, which means that creates profitability for the company because they're interacting with them, with the customers and clients in a way that creates, that sells those products or creates that opportunity to engage more customers and more clients and creates opportunities for companies to have more market share. The other thing is, you have more companies and clients because they see that there are people that reflect who they are that they can do business with, and that promotes trust in a brand. And so the third and fourth thing is you're more innovative because you have different voices, different experiences, and different mindsets sitting at a table, and you create the products and services that help your organization thrive. And so that's the reason why companies should be doing it. Yes, it's the right thing to do. Yes, it creates the right opportunities for your employee base. But at the end of the day, I work for an organization that's there to be profitable, and I want that organization to be profitable because that's how I make money as an employee. So, creating an opportunity and engaging around diversity, equity, and inclusion are things you can't afford not to do. And so in this day and age, where, yes, there is a lot of backlash, yes, there there are those out there that are saying that diversity, equity, and inclusion is not what it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, meaning that they feel like it's reverse discrimination or it, it causes division. That has never been the intent, nor is it what real diversity, equity, and inclusion do for organizations. There's a study that came out recently, Andi, that asked thousands of employees and this was just released, I think late last month. They asked them, do you still want your organizations to engage in DNI? And so one would think that that answer would have been a resounding no, based on what you hear out and what you hear the rhetoric today. But 90% of employees said no, absolutely. It is critical to my organization's and my success. Andi Simon: There's additional research that I've been reading like you have, which says that people look for companies that have diversity in leadership. And it's not just that they want to belong. They want to know that it matters to the organization and that they can see pathways to progress and success. And they are consumers. They are no different than your clients or your customers. They're looking for a place where they see curiosity and things where I can belong, and I can share my ideas in a healthy way so that people hear me and I can be strong instead of in a box. I am interested in Paradigm 4 Parity. How did that develop? Because it's a particular approach, and it's amazing. The Bank of America has underwritten it. Please give us some perspective on what it is, how it works, and how people could benefit from it. Sandra Quince: Absolutely. Paradigm 4 Parity is an organization that was created, seven years ago, will be going into our eighth year this year. And it's an organization that was created by women for women. So, these were women who had achieved great things in their organizations. They were CEOs and they were on the back side of their careers. And what they realized when they turned around to look behind them wasn't no other women were coming behind them. There was one other woman in the pipeline, and more importantly, their daughters were entering into the workforce. They realized we have a problem, and we have got to find a way to solve it. So, unlike some of us who sometimes sit on the sidelines and talk about the issues, these women got together and said, we need to do something about this. And so they created Paradigm 4 Parity. Paradigm 4 Parity is dedicated to achieving gender parity at every level of leadership in corporate America with a lens on racial equity. And so these women said, not only do we need to create this organization and invite companies of various sizes to be a part of this coalition and a part of this change that we want to see, we're going to provide them with a roadmap or a five-point action plan, we like to call it, to help these organizations be able to navigate their way to success, to achieving gender parity. And so they did tons of interviews. They took subject matter experts, interviewed the women who had been successful in their careers, and boiled it down to five key actions that organizations need to take in order to see Parity. And what's beautiful about this is when organizations execute on this, you not only have gender parity, but it creates that ecosystem that I talked about earlier, where you're creating an environment where everyone, men, women of all ethnicities can show up and thrive in an environment that becomes equitable and fair for all. And so, yes, while we're dedicated to achieving gender parity, we've provided the blueprint and all the tools and resources to go along with that. We also understand that it's important that we bring everyone along in this journey. And so it creates an equitable environment for all. Andi Simon: You know, you're talking about a significant transformation of the corporate and social aspects because this isn't just inside the company. This is the whole mindset about how we see each other. Humans are quite fascinating because we're status creatures. It's me against my brother and my brother against my cousin. A little anthropology always helps us understand the perspective that we've evolved and survived by comparing ourselves. Gregory Batson has some significant research on the differences. The difference is only because we see the outside differently from us. We know who we are. But now, it becomes a much broader perspective beyond the tribe about the fact that I can be much more extensive and broader. With so many people going through college education and traveling and seeing different things, it's a time for personal and professional growth in our companies. Paradigm 4 Parity: is that something a company buys? Is it something they just understand? How do they get involved with it? Sandra Quince: Absolutely. So, I encourage everyone watching and/or listening to this podcast to go to Paradigm4rparity.org and check out our website. All companies have to decide that this is definitely where we are on this journey, and we want to see Parity within the workplace and workforce. And they can join us. And you will see that we have 150 plus other coalition members that are on this journey with us. Those that are doing great work and have achieved Parity at certain levels in their organizations and those just starting out who are saying, you know, we're new to this. We want to make an impact. And so we have all and everything in between from an organizational perspective. So, join us and take advantage of the five-point action plan, the tools and the resources that we offer, the webinars and seminars that we provide, connecting with others who are like-minded and on this journey with you, and understanding what those leading practices are that are out there that organizations are doing to achieve and sustain parity within their organizations. So it is quite simple, Andi, for people to join us. Andi Simon: How does it feel? I tell people that people decide with their eyes and their heart. And they need to find out what it is. You know, what is it until they see it and feel it and trust that it is, in fact, it's good? And that's how we'll decide to behave differently and act on it. It takes work to change. You're looking for people to change their mindset, their conversations, their microaggressions, the things they don't even know they're doing. And begin to see each other in a different light. Are there some illustrations you can share that aren't proprietary that will help people see it better than just hearing it from you? Sandra Quince: Absolutely. And what you're talking about and describing, especially around our human nature, is the nature around being biased. Unconscious bias. And I know people say they hear that all the time and they wonder, I don't have biases. But the truth is because we're human, we're born with biases. Biases are created every single day. It is not curable.  Andi Simon: It's not. I never thought of biases as being not curable. I like that. Go ahead. Sandra Quince: It's not curable. There's not anything you can take that can cure biases. There are things you can do to mitigate bias and think about when bias becomes dangerous. So think about it. You know, here's a simple illustration. I am a graduate of Florida State University. Me and my husband, we're staunch Seminole fans. And so if you went to the University of Miami, you are automatically the enemy to us, right? Because there is a bias there because we are rival teams. Automatic. There is a thought that pops in your head when that rival is mentioned. That is a bias. It just so happens, though, that particular bias is not necessarily dangerous, right? Because it is fun. It is a sport. But when bias becomes dangerous, you then take that same thought process and apply it to the workplace and don't hire someone because of the way that they look or where they might come from, or the gender, or who they love, or what ethnicity they are. So again, that's when biases become extremely dangerous. And so what we do at Paradigm 4 Parity is we help organizations understand how to mitigate that bias in those very dangerous moments. And those dangerous moments really show up in the employee lifecycle. And so we talk about mitigating bias in the moments that matter. So, the employee lifecycle starts with hiring. Then it moves to onboarding. Then it moves to developing. Then it moves to promoting. Then it moves to managing talent and then it moves to retention. So, these are all of the inflection points where decisions are made. About whether I'm going to be even hired into an organization. Now, how am I onboarded in that organization? Because that makes a difference. Because that is a jumping point for me in how well I perform. And then do I get opportunities to be developed in that organization, which then leads to promotion? And when we think about how we manage talent, so those talent management processes and thinking about pay, thinking about how you rate talent, all of those things become very subjective and biases creep into those processes. And so how do we mitigate those? And then last is retaining who we retain and why and who aren't we retaining and why? And so again, we talk a lot at Paradigm 4 Parity and help our organizations through some of the tools and resources, leading practices, sessions, programs, as well as our webinars and seminars around how are you mitigating this bias in those moments that matter and help organizations think about creating that or that ecosystem where their talent can thrive? Andi Simon: You know, some of this is challenging. So, as a listener or the viewer is reflecting on their own decisions and biases and, remember that musicians, they've tried to make gender-neutral, unbiased decisions about whether to put somebody into their orchestra by having them perform behind a screen so they don't know who they are. You just know what they're producing, what their outcomes are. And we've tried this in a program that I had at Washington University, and we try to have venture capitalists or funders understand who is presenting, not by their nature or who they were or their background, but what the value of the program was that they were looking for funding for. Very little money goes from VCs to women-owned businesses for a reason. It's a woman, much less a woman who's a minority or a person of color. And so it becomes essential for us to get neutralized in some fashion, either by creating an illusion or actually thinking about why I'm deciding this, making it intentional, as opposed to simply an old habit where an old bias creeps in and says, well, I saw that before. Or someone I knew way back when, or they didn't produce well. You'll be amazed how much baggage you carry and how noise in your brain influences your decisions. And you're not free-wheeling it here. You're habit-driven and trying to come up with a better solution. One staff person in the staffing industry said it provides a more diverse pool for the HR folks to evaluate. But, when he provides them, those selecting the candidates don't select them in a neutral environment. As he says, I can send them the right mix, but they just go back to finding people who look like them. That is not good for building better organizations. That's not even good for hiring somebody. This business has evolved. Are you seeing one or two trends being done that are helpful and hopeful? Sandra Quince: You're absolutely right. Let me circle back on the bias piece that you talked about. Because when you think about mitigating those biases in those moments, like you say, creating those illusion of opportunities where you could do blind resumes, you're absolutely right. Because there are things on resumes you don't have to have. What you really need to understand is their credentials. What makes them qualified for it? But then I think also mitigating the bias in those moments that matter can come, like you said, by asking yourself some simple questions. Yes, you think of it like a muscle. You have to constantly work it, or it will revert back to what it was before. So let me say that we're in a very interesting time, Andi, certainly when we think about what's helpful and hopeful. So what's helpful right now? We're in this time where really many companies, especially those that are part of Paradigm for Parity and our coalition, they're doubling down. They're doubling down and they are staying true to who they are as an organization, their mission, their vision and their values. They're doubling down and continuing the good work of creating an equitable, fair workplace for all. And I think what these companies are doing is they're also looking at their language to be sure their language aligns with the outcomes they want to achieve, and making sure that inclusion is at the forefront of everything that they do, which inclusion should be the leading factor. It's inclusion for all. It's also diversity, equity and inclusion for all. And so leading with that is many organizations are taking a step and leading with that inclusion piece and ensuring that if I have programs that are specific for certain people, why do we have these programs? So processes are put in place. And I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning your why. So you can go back and create the right data sets and analytics to help explain why you're on the path you're on, and reconfirming for yourself that this is really the right thing to do. So, for me, that is helpful. And for organizations to go through that exercise and ensure that whatever they're doing, that it matters and that it's creating the right environment that they want to see for their organization. And then putting the data and the analytics behind it. So what's hopeful right? What's hopeful is that 90% that I talked about earlier, Andi, the majority of people want to see a more equitable workplace and they want to see it for everyone. And that is hopeful for me, and especially those that are in the workforce today and those that are entering into the workforce really understanding and working for those organizations. They do their homework and their research, and they will not work for organizations that they can't see themselves there. Andi Simon:  And they know that hope comes from being in a place with a curious, broad perspective because if not, they will be in a box. McKinsey, in February 2023, had their "Women in the Workforce: 2022," in which they spoke about the great breakup. The women were leaving the corporate because they didn't see any hope for advancement. And there was no effort to give them new growth opportunities or even to demonstrate that the work they did mattered. This is a time where women have a choice, and men do as well. I am looking at Gen Zs and wondering and worrying about our guys because women are getting rallied around and the men don't quite know what to rally around. And without belonging to something, they feel a little lost. And it's worrisome. And our kids will look at the adults and wonder about what they will be. So this is a transformative time, Sandra. This has been wonderful. One or two things you want our listeners and viewers to remember, because your conversation has absolutely transfixed me. I'm enjoying every moment. But we do have to end. What would you like them not to forget? Sandra Quince: I don't want them to forget that biases are not curable. And I think as individuals, we need to ensure that we're mitigating our bias. And always ask yourself and be curious who's missing and why? Think about that on your teams when you show up to work. Are you an upstander? When you see something, do you say something? Do you challenge the status quo when you feel like something isn't right? And what solutions are you bringing to the table, and how are you supporting your organization to be better? And I want organizations to understand that there is a lot of work for you to do to ensure you're creating the right ecosystem. How are you engaging and supporting your managers and your people leaders because they lead the majority of your population and they make or break your culture?  Andi Simon: This has been a marvelous half hour. I can keep going. I'm thinking about ways to bring this out to my clients to help them see, feel, and think better because they're looking for it. They're reaching that point where I have one client who finally made three women partners in their firm, and it was with I mean, I've been working with them for six years. It was with great effort and, and it is an interesting time to watch people go through slow transformation. What is that expression, a little a little and off the cliff they go. And I think we're reaching that end where a little was good, but a lot would be greater. Sandra Quince: Absolutely. Andi Simon: For my listeners, I want you to remember one thing, that the words you choose create the world to live in. And Sandra has been saying that in many different ways today. Bias, thinking about whether it's diversity, equity, inclusion, or belonging, those are words, and we live with behaviors. But the words we use create the worlds we live in. So think carefully about what you're thinking and saying what you're hearing because what is said is only sometimes what you hear. And what you hear often is what you think, but not necessarily what was meant. So the complexity of this should not be underestimated. But the opportunity, particularly with Paradigm 4 Parity and its five-step process, is ready for you. So if they want to reach you, Sandra, how can they do that? Sandra Quince: So they can reach me on LinkedIn at Sandra Quince. They can go on our website paradigmforparity.org. We would love to have you peruse our site. And, of course there are all kinds of ways to reach our organization once you join our site. Andi Simon: It's been a pleasure, a privilege, and thank you so much for joining us today. For my listeners and my viewers, we had fun. It's so much fun to explore something, listen to see, feel, and think in new ways, and see how you can change. I'll plug in because Women Mean Business is full of beautiful wisdom that will spark your success. As Sandra was sharing those, I've been repeating that as you rise, lift others with you. It's intentional, and I've worked with women who are CEOs, and they don't have any process for moving others up. They have yet to notice they're building the business but haven't noticed what that means for all others inside. So this is a time to get intentional about it. As you rise, lift others, and you'll find Women Mean Business at womenmeanbusinessbook.com. Amazon would love for you to go and buy it there. So thanks, Sandra. I'm going to say goodbye to everybody. Thanks again for joining us. It's been great. Have a wonderful day. Remember to take your observations and turn them into innovations. Be a little anthropologist. You may enjoy it. Bye-bye now. WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how we can all embrace the notion of productization, not fear it Today I bring to you an exceptional businesswoman and innovator whom I would also call a futurist, Eisha Tierney Armstrong. Eisha specializes in helping B2B companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. In other words, she helps them productize, which is also the title of her best-selling book. She shows businesses how to take a service that is delivered by people and standardize it, usually by automating it with technology. This is not to be feared, she says, but welcomed, because of the many possibilities it enables. Listen and share! Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our discussion: B2B buyers are changing. They're more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet.  The cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you're productizing and trying to innovate, you don't necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing.  One of the cultural attributes that's really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn and be open to change. People get afraid and they think, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? Those are very valid, important fears. But the most exciting thing about productization is the potential for growth. You can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding. We are at the precipice of a massive explosion in growth and if we focus on that, people will be more willing to embrace the change. How to connect with Eisha You can find Eisha on LinkedIn and her website Vecteris. You can also email her at eisha.armstrong@vecteris.com. Want to learn more about preparing your business for the future, now? Check out these: Unlocking New Opportunities: Exploring Blue Ocean Strategy® To Understand Your Future Customers Navigating The Future: The Vital Need For Leadership Training In The Post-Pandemic Era Jennifer Kluge—Meet The Leader To Build Your Business Into One Of The Best And Brightest Byron Reese—How Humans Learned to See the Future, and You Can Too! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. My job is to help you get off the brink. I've been doing this for almost 400 podcasts now, and it's absolutely wonderful that you, our audience, keep enjoying it, sending us ideas about people whom we should interview and really celebrating the fact that you've gotten off the brink, picking up ideas from the people we bring to you to help you do something important for you to change. You need to see, feel, and think in new ways. I always say you take your observations and turn them into innovations, and today is particularly interesting. For that reason, I have Eisha Armstrong here. Jennifer McCollum (who was on this podcast in August of last year) brought her to us and suggested we should have a conversation, particularly about the work she's doing in the B2B world of professional services. But I think it's important for you listening to her to see what she sees out in the market and how that could help you do better for yourself and your business.  Now, I must say, I listen to Amy Webb at SXSW and her video is just wonderful, and I watch it as many years as I can. But she is talking about the fourth industrial revolution coming now, and I would tell you that you cannot wait. It's here. And that question is really important for you and your business. So we'll be weaving that in a little bit today as well. Who is Eisha? Eisha Armstrong is a co-founder and executive chairman of Vecteris. She's dedicated to helping business-to-business companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. Prior to co-founding Vecteris, Eisha held Senior Product Leadership roles at the E.W. Scripps Company and at CEB, now Gartner, the world's largest membership-based corporate performance research and advisory company. She has a best-selling book, Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services into Scalable Products and her other book is Fearless: How to Transform a Services Culture and Successfully Productize. I think we'll talk about productize today a bit. I'm delighted to have you here. I should thank you for joining me. Eisha Armstrong: Well thank you, Andi, it's a pleasure to be here. Andi Simon: I am delighted you came back from Costa Rica in time for us to have a great conversation, although I have met with someone in Costa Rica for a podcast, so the world is very flat and small. Tell the audience about your own journey because you are at a point now that's very timely and important for them to know about you and about what we're going to talk about and Vecteris today. Who is Eisha Armstrong? Eisha Armstrong: Well, thank you Andi. So I started my career, as you mentioned, at CEB, which was purchased by Gartner about eight years ago. As a data scientist right out of undergrad, of course we didn't call them data scientists at the time, so my title was research analyst. But I was doing research on different corporate performance topics that were specifically focused on data analysis to uncover root causes of corporate performance, and I ended up spending a good 15 years of my career there, working my way up. CEB sponsored me to go to business school, so I was fortunate enough to get my MBA while I was there and that moved me into a very early product management role. And at the time, the company didn't have product managers. So we had to kind of define what that role meant, what that looked like, and learn from people in the software industry about what product management was. And by the time I left, I was leading a portfolio of products. Fast forward to 2018, and I co-founded Vecteris with a former colleague of mine, specifically to help B2B professional services firms learn how to, as you mentioned, the title of my book, productize, which means taking a service that is delivered by people and standardizing it, usually automating it, with some form of technology. Perhaps, delivering it in a more scalable fashion, which tends to improve profit margins. If they're selling, they can usually do that on a more subscription basis, which improves renewable revenue, and makes it easier to run their firms. So we've been focused on that for the last six years,and as you mentioned, I published two books. I have my third one coming out later this year because my passion is really understanding what are the keys to being successful in this type of transformation. So I've focused a lot of my time now on researching that and then publishing those findings. Andi Simon: So clarify for the audience, what professional services firms are. Eisha Armstrong: Oh great question. So it could be anything from a law firm, an accounting firm, management consulting firm, training and development, HR services, engineering and architecture, IT services. But usually where you have professionals who are providing you with their expertise and their time in exchange for money, versus a product company, which is providing a kind of a prepackaged set of features and value, in exchange for money. Andi Simon: And so we're going to take the people part and somehow turn it into something that you can sell that could be accessed without necessarily as much people interface on it. And this has interesting implications both for the company producing it and selling it and those who are buying it and their expectations. So I have a hunch that as you've gone through your six years into Vecteris now, I'm 23 years in business and I've watched many generations of changes come and go. This one is the most exciting for me because I do think it's transformational.  But for a B2B company, my accounting firm client, for example, I've been working with for six years, what could they do to sort of productize something? Is there something you can sort of share with us that you've seen work particularly well? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. So we talk about productization in terms of different levels. The first level would just be what we call productized services, where they're still delivering value through people. But perhaps the engagement of this accounting firm, let's take an audit for example, is more standardized. So there's a set of templates and tools that their professionals can use to deliver that audit the same way for every client. And perhaps they have different packages. So rather than selling the audit engagement based on time and materials, we're going to charge $500 an hour. They say the audit's going to cost you $50,000 all in. If you want A, B, C type service, if you want to upgrade and get A, B, C plus D, then it's going to cost you $75,000. So they're doing kind of the same set of activities, the same way from client to client. They're able to package it up and price it more on kind of value-based pricing versus time and materials pricing. And there may also be some technology that their professionals are using in the background to help them deliver those engagements more efficiently. And perhaps generative AI is one of those technologies they're using. But most of the interface with the client is still human-to-human. So that's what we call productized services. Then you have more products which are not services. They're not delivered by humans. But, perhaps it's a piece of software that the accounting firm has developed and that they install at their client to help them improve reconciliation between their accounting software and perhaps some type of inventory management system or something like that. And then they're charging that client a monthly fee to license the software that this accounting firm has developed. And that would be an example of a product. So software is an obvious example, but data could also be another example of a product. You know, perhaps the accounting firm has developed some proprietary data set and they want to license it to their clients. That could be a product. It could be an off-the-shelf kind of online training program that their clients go in and access and take online training. So there's no human-to-human involvement in the delivery of it, but you still need humans for relationship development and account management and things like that. Andi Simon: This is so interesting because when you productize it like other Microsoft products, it comes with annual updates and upgrades. I love your monthly fees for service and a support staff that is located maybe in the Philippines. So there's all kinds of ways that you can now optimize the talent you have without simply adding more talent. Correct? And this becomes a mind shift, if I know enough about enough of my professional service firms to know that their minds are about doing what they do now better, maybe cheaper, faster, but not by making it into a product per se, but by simply having more talent. The pandemic gave them the options of having more attorneys who were remote, or more accountants who were remote. That sounded really unthinkable before the pandemic. And now it's quite normal. But, now you're talking about taking what we do and looking at it as a different thing. A product is different from a service. So we can talk about many of these things. One thing that you and I were sharing was that we must change the culture inside the firm and the firms that are using those services. I don't want to lose the opportunity in our conversation to talk about what that means as you move from people and services to a product and sales from a cultural point of view, and I have a hunch you're seeing that. You and I can share some cases, but what are you seeing? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. Great question. So I think first of all, you have to take a step back and look at this as a fundamental transformation for most organizations. So if you're, let's say a law firm and now you want to also sell software alongside your legal services, this is a significant change because you're not only having to think differently about how you create value, because it's a little bit of a business model transformation, but you're going to need new skills, new technical skills, skills that people are skilled in, lean product development or agile, for example. It's just kind of a different way of operating, and so if you think about your business model transformation, digital transformation, trying to become more innovative, fast-paced, that is a very different culture than a traditional law firm.  And some people may find that very threatening, especially if you're saying, okay, we used to create value based on the expertise in Andi's head. Well, Andi, now we're going to create value based on the intellectual property of the entire firm that has been documented. Andi could deliver it or somebody else could deliver it. Or maybe it's delivered digitally. So we don't even need a person like that who can be very threatening to people who've defined their entire careers based on my expertise is what creates value. And so that's a big change. And I think it's important for organizations to think about that before they embark on a product decision strategy. Andi Simon: Have you seen any illustrative case studies you can share where they've done it well or where it blew up? Eisha Armstrong: Oh, yes. Countless. So one is a management consulting firm that we've worked with now for several years. And they go in and they work with manufacturing companies, industrial companies, and their consultants created an algorithm to help manufacturers batch custom manufacturing jobs and do it in a more productive way. And their senior partners were like, we could turn this algorithm into a piece of software and we could sell it and we could productize it and wow, you know, multiples on software businesses are much larger than multiples on the consulting businesses like this. This is a great idea. And we're like, yes, there's a great need. There was nobody else in the market doing this. They had the skill set. But let's think about the culture change and what's going to be required. So what they ultimately decided to do was to set it up as a separate organization and so they kind of insulated it from the primary consulting business. It had its own dedicated team that was fully funded full time working on this, this software product, not off the side of their desk.  They had different performance measures. They had a different name in the marketplace. So they weren't using the name of the parent company to really distinguish that this is not just kind of a different way of delivering value, but it's also a different culture. Yeah. And they've been quite successful operating this as kind of a separate business that still has the benefit of the strength of the balance sheet of the consulting firm, the client relationships where they're able to feed them leads. They're recognizing that it's a significant difference in cultures and operating them as two separate businesses. So that would be a great success story. Andi Simon: It is brilliant. But on their part, they understood that an artwork and a draft don't necessarily come out with something better. This was different and needed a whole different model for it to be successful. That is a brilliant company with amazing leadership to understand that. So often we work a lot on observation to innovation, a lot of innovation that never gets out of the starting gate, mostly because they try to add it on to their current staff whose minds are in a whole different place. You know, people say, what's culture? I say, it's what you do every day and believe it's the way we should do it. Let's not get too sophisticated here. But for those who are doing the service part, it is what we do every day. And for those who are developing the product, it has nothing to do with what we do every day. And unless you understand that you cannot succeed in prioritizing your services without a different way of doing that.  Eisha Armstrong: Absolutely. Yes.  Andi Simon: Now, with that in mind, as you're talking, I'm saying, okay, now how are they creating these products and are they eliminating the service part or are they just rapid fast forward using, I don't know, generative AI. What do you see happening on the productization part? Eisha Armstrong: So we see a couple of different what we call archetypes. So the first one is, we are going to develop products that are bundled in with our services. I mentioned perhaps there's a piece of software that's installed alongside some consulting work that might be done and that's sold as a kind of a single solution to a client.  Say, you have this problem. For example, you want to improve your ability to attract highly skilled talent. You need some consultants to come in and understand what type of skills you need. What might be preventing the organization right now from attracting that talent? But you might also need some compensation benchmarking data and you might need that to be updated monthly, and so it's a mix of the kind of data technology that is delivering value. And so we call that kind of the bundled solutions approach to productization. And I think it's actually, Andi, a brilliant move for a lot of professional services firms because it leverages their existing competitive advantage, which is their service professionals and the existing relationships that they have with clients. So they're bundling those products along with that. The other option might be like this management consulting firm that decided to kind of run it as a separate business because what they found is that the manufacturers that were interested in the software product were actually different from the manufacturers that they worked with on their consulting engagements. So it was an entirely new market. And that also fed into their decision to run it as a separate business because it really didn't make sense to bundle the two, given they were separate markets who were interested in the services versus interested in the software product. And then the third archetype is where you decide you're going to fully sunset being a services business, and you're going to transform to be a 100% products business that is less common. And when we do see it, it's usually with younger professional services firms who start offering professional services. They uncover a great need that they can meet with a product and aren't yet at the level of maturity where it doesn't make sense to sunset the services business. They can kind of eat that cost and transform and become a full products business. So those are the three different archetypes that we see. Andi Simon: So let me repeat them back. The first one bundles it, and the second one is segregated, and the third one is young and can see opportunities and aren't so wedded to the way we've always done it here that they can reinvent themselves. Eisha Armstrong: Correct. Yes. Andi Simon: And I love to summarize what you've said, because for the listener, Eisha has said some very important things. There isn't a single way that you can take what you do. So don't look at it as a thing. Begin to think about it. And I think it's very important outside in, it isn't. What you do is what a customer does and which customer wants or needs for this manufacturing service provider. Some of their customers probably are older and are much more set in their ways and are happy to talk to people. And younger may be very unhappy talking to people. I had one logistics company and their salespeople couldn't get the people they used to talk to to answer the phone. They were still doing calls. And when I interviewed the folks who they thought would be their buyers, they had retired. And the new folks who had come in were all 30 somethings who said to me very quietly, we don't use the phone. And I say that because the point is that times are changing fast, and the people in the times, they are changing fast and so assume nothing. You're in a startup mode. It's a whole new time for reinvention. Both of them have an understanding of what the new clients need because they're younger too, in many cases. You know, let's stop being angry about the fact that Gen Z is the largest workforce. And let's figure out how to work with them to change it. Now, what's interesting from just the lifespan of some of these products, they're startups in many ways now. Are they aggressively now elevating them to the next stage, or are they so happy they got a product? I was curious about how people see things. Got it, got the product. Now what? What do you see? Eisha Armstrong: So let's say we're working with a company who's noticing the same changes that you're talking about. B2B buyers are changing. You know, they're more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet. They are more comfortable buying things on a subscription basis. Plus, they also see shifts in the competitive landscape. You have digital first startups who are saying this, solving the same problem that services companies used to solve. Plus, you have generative AI. Lots of things are changing and your labor force is getting more expensive. Wouldn't it be nice if you could grow and not have to add headcount at the same rate? So all of these things might lead a business leader to want to productize. And the first thing we talk about is, okay, this is a different way of thinking. Usually what you want is a portfolio, just like if you were a venture capitalist, because some of your product ideas are going to be home runs and some are going to be stinkers, and you don't really know right now which idea is going to be which. You may have some assumptions and hypotheses that we can go out and test and validate, but you don't have a crystal ball that's going to give you the answer. So let's think about this as a portfolio. What are some quick one things that are lower investment? Perhaps you've already validated because a couple of clients have asked for this and even helped pay for some of the R&D. They are really easy to bundle with your existing services or serve your existing clients. And then what are some of these moonshot ideas where there's perhaps more investment required over time, but perhaps much more value and potential. And what are some steps that we can start to take today to test and research and validate some of your hypotheses about those moonshot ideas. And then let's come back either monthly or quarterly, and look at the performance of this portfolio of product ideas and see how it's doing. Are our assumptions correct? If so, add a little bit more investment, just like a venture capitalist would. Or did we invalidate some of our hypotheses and realize that some of these great ideas are actually stinkers and we need to stop investing in them, sunset them, and put our efforts elsewhere. Andi Simon: I laugh listening to you because that requires a completely different mindset that detaches you from the products themselves. They aren't about you. I once taught at Washington University a course for entrepreneurs, and I brought in some entrepreneurs and they left some lasting things in my head. And one guy said, Well, I built three businesses. Some worked, some didn't. It requires a detached relationship with that product, because it isn't that you didn't have a good idea. Some work, some don't. So what? Move on. Right. But you need to have an open mind about what is working and be wise enough to know how to redirect investment as if you're your own investor as opposed to the runner of the business. And that changes the whole relationship. Even with each other and with a client and that's a maturity that could come in youth, but it requires a different sense of what this product is and how it operates. And what do I mean to it? And how am I almost like a business school case study as opposed to a real life thing? Does that make sense? Eisha Armstrong: It does. Absolutely. It's really interesting, Andi, because we talk to professional services firms, leaders, and say, look, the cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you're productizing and trying to innovate, you don't necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and kind of experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing. So you've got this on the one hand, a cultural attribute of knowing that has made you a great professional services firm is now going to get in the way of learning and experimenting.  Andi Simon: And I'll put a pitch in for, again, an anthropologist to go out to those clients while you're introducing these things and observe. You have no idea how many times I work with clients who have launched products and assume they know how their customers are using them, and then I go, and I often love to take them with me, because if I see and they don't, they won't believe me. So I take them along and I say, Be an anthropologist, just hang out, watch. And they get shocked by the fact that this wonderfully complex thing that their engineers over-engineered isn't being used at all the way they thought, and they usually see one little piece of it so that it serves their purpose as opposed to the overarching complex services that they have productized without calling it that. But this is what they did. And it is interesting to me how we cannot see the world through our own eyes. You kind of look backwards. You know what's going on with the customer who think they gave you a good question to answer, and you answer that question, but it was the wrong question. It really had nothing to do with what they really needed. And I often find that particularly when the question has come down through a company and a more junior person has come to find a solution, only to realize they didn't really know what the question was that was being asked way up the line. And as a result, they come back with an answer that doesn't match. It's the old telephone game. It is so interesting. So you are in a moment of watching these companies potentially transform themselves, not quite putting the services sector out of business, but transforming the whole business. This is really cool stuff. We have a few more minutes, and I want to just talk briefly about the training and skill development. Are you finding them beginning to understand that they have to rethink the training and skill development of their teams? Eisha Armstrong: Oh, absolutely. I mentioned, for example, one of the cultural attributes that's really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn. So one of the skill sets that you could look for are people who have kind of a hypothesis-based research background: could be from hard sciences, social sciences, but people who are used to developing hypotheses, testing them and being somewhat removed in terms of the outcome. So they're dispassionate about that and try to put on their scientist hat as the great organizational psychologist Adam Grant calls it and be open to changing their mind. So that's one that's very important. Another one is, the ability to do what we call: think from a market segment standpoint. So market-minded, because professional services companies have been thinking very 1:1. What does Andi Simon need? Okay. I'm going to go and deliver exactly what she needs. Now you're thinking about, what is a market segment that is similar to Andi Simon. What does this entire market segment need and how can we deliver something of value that meets maybe 80% of their needs, but not 100% of their needs? And that's a very different way of thinking. Usually people who've done market research, you mentioned ethnographic research, people perhaps who have a finance background, can think about market segments, attractive market segments, market needs, things like that. And then the third one, which we can't forget, is digital literacy. And I say the word literacy very deliberately because often we think, oh, we need to go out and hire software engineers. And I'm like, no, that's digital fluency. I just want everyone in the organization to be digitally literate. Knowing kind of what are the tools out there and how could we use these in our day to day work would be digital literacy. And it's really shocking how many organizations we get brought into, Andi, where the leadership team is saying, we're going to make these investments in technology, we're going to productize, and there are people on the leadership team who have very, very low digital literacy. So they're not modeling that behavior for the rest of the organization. Andi Simon: The rest of the organization says, okay, you show me first and then I'll change, because change is literally pain. You know, we specialize in helping organizations and the people inside them change. And one thing the listeners should remember is your brain hates me. It hates to think about something in a new way. It doesn't like the energy it needs to learn something. The oldest reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, hijacks it. It says, go away. I'm going to hate you. I'm going to flee you. I'm going to fight you. I'm going to appease you, but I'm not going to change. And that's just the way your brain works. It's there to protect you from all this foreign stuff coming at you called digital literacy. But it is a time where you probably should rethink your thinking and change your mindset. This has been such fun. You should give the audience 1 or 2 or 3 things you don't want them to forget, because they often remember the ending better than the beginning. And we've had a nice beginning and I've enjoyed our conversation. A couple of things you want them to remember. Eisha Armstrong: I think the biggest one, and you just brought it up, is that when we start talking about things like generative AI, the fourth industrial revolution, perhaps reducing the amount of services and delivering products, people get afraid and they think about, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? And yes, those are very valid, important fears to talk about. But the most exciting thing about all of this is the potential for growth. I mean, imagine again, if you're a B2B professional services firm, you can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding, not only from a financial standpoint, but also just from the personal reward that you get out of your work every day. And so the one thing that I try to stress with the executives that I work with is, let's talk about the opportunity rather than the change required. You know, yes, there is going to be change required, but that makes people afraid. And instead, let's paint that vision and talk about the growth opportunity. How can jobs become more rewarding? How can we serve more people? That's what I truly believe. We are at the precipice of just a massive explosion in growth and if we talk about that, I think people will be more willing to embrace the change. Andi Simon: I hope so. I know you're a research person by background. Have you started to collect the number of services firms that have productized? Is there any Gartner research that says, hey, guys, you know, of all of those, I don't know why percent have already started to productize. You're running late in the process. Any idea? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah, it's nine out of ten, so 90%. And again, that could be very early productized services where they're standardizing tech-enabled delivery of their services. But it's still kind of looks and feels the same way to the client all the way up to creating new separate software businesses. But yeah, nine out of ten organizations. And yeah, if you're not doing it yet, you are massively behind.  Andi Simon: I'm laughing. And that doesn't matter whether you're an attorney or management consulting firm, anything that is people-based is ready to be rethought. Not that the people are wrong or bad, but that the solutions to the problems are not going to necessarily be delivered by you and I talking about it. And I'm not going to say maybe I could have done this, but I was kidding around with my physician the other day and I said, your portal is so good. One day I'll just have it take a picture of my body and I'll tell me how my vital signs are. And he said, that's not so far away. And I said, it's not. Everything's going to be productized. It's very exciting. Well, this has been such fun. I should thank you. Where can they reach you? What's your website? Eisha Armstrong: It's Vecteris.com. And I love to connect with people on LinkedIn, so feel free to also connect with me on LinkedIn: Eisha.Armstrong. Andi Simon: It's been a pleasure. And thank you. And thank you, Jennifer McCollum, for introducing us. And I think we should do a follow up in six months to see what we have seen and what's working well, and you'll have your third book out and I'd love to celebrate with you. It's very cool stuff for our listeners and our viewers. Thank you for coming. As you know, we like to take observation and turn it into innovation. And as an anthropologist, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. If you have not spent a day in the life of your customer, it's time, because they may be prioritizing already, leaving you behind in the process, but you don't really know what they're thinking until you go and just hang out. They say, what does an anthropologist do? We hang out and we listen to the things that you can't see because they can't even tell you what they're doing. So watch them and begin to think about what that means for you. My books are all on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, the topic for this podcast, has won awards and been a bestseller, and people show it to me on the beach, wherever they're reading about how anthropology can help their business grow. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about 11 women who did just that. And our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, all of whom have simply said, of course they can and have done extremely well, and their wisdoms are very wise for all of you men and women. And we've developed a program, we've productized the book into a program to help corporations and CEOs begin to think about how to harness the wisdom of women to optimize their business. And as an anthropologist, I was reading Gregory Beaton's work about how everything is the opposite. You know who you are by what you're not. And so maybe we should start seeing the benefits of difference as opposed to worrying about being identical. And I couldn't agree more. It's time for rethinking what we're trying to do with the talent that we have. It's been great fun. Thank you all for coming. I'm going to say goodbye to Eisha Armstrong. Thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. Goodbye, everybody. Come again. See you now. Bye bye.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how to answer the question: Why should your customers care? I always say, in my coaching or our leadership academies or my workshops, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. Big ideas are actually already in your head waiting for those a-ha moments where you might say, Wow, I'm onto something. My podcast guest today can help you do just that. Fran Biderman-Gross is going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you're doing and why, and think about how to make some changes. We know that change is painful and we don't always like it, but often it's necessary to get where we want to go. Listen, learn, and share. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from today: Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time. Informed buyers need a reason to believe. Then you must make the emotional connection to why your product matters to them. Today, purchases have to be meaningful. People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. Consumers are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it. Why is the world a better place with what you are offering your customers? You fundamentally must understand who your customers are and what they want, what matters to them. How to connect with Fran You can reach out to Fran on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website Advantages.net. You can also email her at getnoticed@advantages.net. and check out her book: How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit Want a deeper dive into how to market for success? We recommend these as a starting point:  Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion? Patrick Van Gorder—Ready For The Right Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategy To Expand Your Business? Melissa Copeland—Want Your Business To Be Successful? Start With A Great Customer Experience Aviva Ajmera—First Get That Great Strategy. Then Tackle How To Get It Done! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your podcast host, and as you know, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I go looking for interesting people who are going to help me do that. Today is a day when we're all on the brink. We don't know if we're going to soar or fall, but the ladder is there for us to climb. But sometimes we need new ideas. We need to fill our head. Remember, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. So as you listen to our podcast, things are going to come your way and you're going to say, That's a big idea. It's actually sitting in your head waiting for it to happen, but I'm happy to share. So I have a wonderful woman here today to help you do just that. She's going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you're doing and why, and think about how to make some changes because change is painful and we don't always like it. Fran Biderman-Gross is our guest today. A little bit about Fran. She is here smiling at you, and she is going to smile through her whole time together because she is just a very happy, wonderful woman with lots to share with you. Fran Biderman-Gross is the founder and CEO of Advantages, an award winning branding and marketing agency and among The Fortune 500 Best Places for Entrepreneurs. I'm going to let her tell you exactly what that is. The Advantages team leads clients on a journey of brand discovery that reveals personal and organizational purpose, values, and story. And Fran is just full of ideas for us today. She also is a podcast host for Drive Profit with Purpose, where she speaks with business leaders about the importance of purpose. And, you know, purpose-driven organizations are doing better than those without a purpose. And she's co-author of How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit, which I have a hunch is hers and could be yours. So this is a book focused on the leverage of three keys of purpose, values, and story so that you can grow and scale profitably and make a difference. Fran, thank you for joining me today. Fran Biderman-Gross: Thank you for having me today. What a meaningful intro. What a great way to set up somebody's mindset in how they should receive every single episode. I'm very grateful to be here. Thank you. Andi Simon: Well, and we are as well because your ideas are fresh. And I haven't had anyone who's a marketing maven in a long time and there's a push now to rethink what we do in the world of communications, storytelling, marketing, whatever those words now mean in a world where it's not a newspaper ad or even what do you do with a press release? It's really sort of like, what are we doing? But tell the listener about who is Fran. Let's really set the stage around your own journey because it sets the context for what you're doing and how you're helping your clients and your staff. Please, Fran. Fran Biderman-Gross: So what can I tell you that's interesting about Fran? I'm a very curious, purposeful, intentional, resourceful human who really loves people. I say that because it's true. While I can be labeled an eternal optimist, just ask my team, I'm always looking for the good in everything. Innately, I really appreciate when others are in that spotlight moment and they're shining, or they set a goal and they accomplish it. I'm really there with them, enjoying not only the journey, but reveling in the success of whatever that is. And while that might seem broad, I've definitely chosen my path in helping others really stand out and understand how they build emotional connections with the people who give them the most fulfillment. So, getting clear on what I call the three keys: your purpose, your values, and your story and the way that you tell it, and there's just so much that's so complicated when we talk about branding and marketing that I just wanted to make it simple but not easy. So it's simple to understand that the concept of a minimum viable brand is very much based on what you believe in, why you exist in the world, and how you bring that to the organization you lead. And if we could just get clear on that, it's simple, just not easy to articulate. It sets such a strong foundation for everything that you're going to do. So in terms of me, I'm just on this journey to help as many people as I can, which is really why the book came about. And, you know, I have a limited, finite amount of time and hours that I could teach a workshop, teach or speak or work with clients. So the book and the podcast are an extension of me having those great conversations so that people can further think about what their purpose, value, and story are, what their three keys are, and how to have tips and tricks to apply it to unravel this mystery of marketing. And what is branding and why is it important? And all of those complicated questions. Andi Simon: The question: you didn't just jump in and know those things. Were there some catalytic moments that took what you were doing and gave it in moments? Well, when you go whoosh and you go, that's what it's about. Is there something you might be able to share? Fran Biderman-Gross: I think there's a couple of light bulb moments, if you will. I think the first time I met Simon Sinek was back in 2004, when he had just discovered the Golden Circle, maybe it was 2003. He had spoken to the entrepreneurs' organization we were at, a little marketing gathering, talking to strategists, colleagues, if you will. And I was really intrigued. And they had asked us to bring some of our best design work, and I did, and I got there early and I placed it on the corner of the table. I was hoping I would stand out and get his attention. Everybody always likes to be called out by the teacher and given some accolades. Who would ever not want that? And I placed this incredibly, very proud, designed piece of collateral on the corner of the table. And wouldn't you know, it caught his eye and he lifted it up in the middle of his chat and he said, This is beautifully designed and it's great quality, and it looks like everybody else and it sounds like everybody else. And I'm like, how do I leave? You just embarrassed me in front of about 80 to 100 people. I'm like the Marketing Maven in there. I'm like the printing princess, the girl who gets everybody noticed. And my stuff is like everybody else, does he know me? So at first I was embarrassed and sunk in my chair. I literally sunk in my chair and I wanted to leave, but I resisted that urge. It desperately took every ounce of fight in me to do that. I waited in line to kind of really unpack what he meant, because I really needed to get over myself and try to learn from something. And then he just set me off on a path of, this is beautifully designed, but how does it speak to me and how does it create a connection versus what you're selling and what you're advertising on this piece? And how do I actually use it as a tool to build, to create, to activate curiosity or to spark a connection in that way? And that set off a very deep relationship for a very long time, although I dug my heels in and didn't want to join.  But I really wanted to further develop the concept of understanding how we start with Why. Hence we got the three keys, which became the technique and the approach that we approach every person, whether you're a solopreneur, to do personal branding and take that into an organization. And how do I work in an M&A structure and how do I bring people together and how do I help serial entrepreneurs own multiple businesses because they really have one vision in multiple missions. And how does that stack, how do they shift their story point, as I would describe it, to serve them, whether they're in front of you VC raising money or fundraising in a nonprofit or looking for more customers to get into the funnel or further down the funnel. And it has really become evident that many may not disagree and many, I hope, don't. I don't know what I just said, but I hope they don't disagree. And I'm happy to welcome the conversations if they do. But people innately develop relationships with people they like, they trust, and have a connection with somewhere, and they feel it. And that's a biological thing. And how do we resolve that? And that has really been my quest: to resolve how your brain thinks but can't speak, and help you give it the word so it validates the feeling. And to me, that's marketing and branding all in one. And that's the job I have to do so that we build relationships with different nonprofits, with our donors, with our volunteers, with the people we serve from professional services or products and goods. So the level of the cost of the sale might influence if it's a bigger ticket. We have to think more. If it's a smaller ticket, we think less. But we build relationships with brands who stand for something that somehow are relatable to us. And even if we don't stop to think about it, when you do, you'll realize that you're developing a fan, a brand fan, as I would say, or an advocate for certain brands because of not only the product, but why they exist in the world where it is sometimes a little hard to find that connection. Andi Simon: It is interesting as I work with organizations, so we're corporate anthropologists, as I often share a little bit during our podcast, and we specialize in helping organizations change. Sometimes they want to and sometimes they hate to because the brain hates to change. It has an idea and a story in it, and that story is your illusion of everyday life. And you get up every day and you live that story whether it's true or not. There's no truth. What's interesting in what you're saying is that you then also surround yourself with things. And those things are a reflection of that illusionary story about who you are. You're always the hero in your story. You're always successful in the story. The problem is, there are always others outside of you, and whether it's you alone, or you as part of a club or a group, humans are herd animals and we like to belong. So with humans, you've got this wonderful opportunity to help them feel better, make their story stronger, especially in times that are fast changing. I don't know how many people have said, “I'll never use AI.” I said, “Well, it's already all over you, you know? You can't do anything without it.” “Quite frankly, I'll never use ChatGPT.” I love ChatGPT, but why do you deny the future? Because it is all around you. It's just not widely distributed yet. And that's asking people to help us rethink the work we're doing with our products and services. And I'm going to let you talk a little bit about how you now help companies and their products and services to rethink their purpose, maybe to retain their values and also to begin to think about that story and storytelling when the world that they're talking to is so fragmented. There are 250 million people with 250 million stories and channels to articulate on. And I don't know whether TikTok is good or not, but as my book came out, somebody I knew said, are you going to be on TikTok? There are as many people creating on TikTok as there are watching it. The world is wild, my friend. How do you help them go through the changes? Maybe there's a case study you can share, or if not, just help the audience think through the new because it's ready, willing and able to help you transform what you're doing for a new world. Your thoughts? Fran Biderman-Gross: So that is a jam-packed question. Andi Simon: Deliberately, I know. Fran Biderman-Gross: And a good one. The way that I'm going to begin to shape that answer is that in 2024, what you knew before doesn't really apply. But here's a lesson that I can say. Well, first let me explain what I mean. Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time that we cannot argue, arguably the fastest, and will continue to get faster as we choose how we consume our media or our information. So I'm just going to use information for now, because there's a lot of things that we want to know on a daily basis, starting with the weather and the top news and what's going on with our clients. And we want bytes of information. So the buyers are informed. They have access to data and facts with a click of an Enter button. You ask a question and you will get an answer. Might not be accurate, but that doesn't matter. We won't debate that, but they have access to information, so there's no more dog and pony show. The dog and pony show is, Here I am. I can't beat my chest and go, “I'm louder and better stand out.” It has to be authentically who you are and why you exist. Why? Because in the last 15 years, I've had the honor of working and taking over my co-author's lifelong work that we had started working on together. I have literally proven that people are the complete reason why businesses who merge succeed. I digress back to the question. Informed buyers need a reason to believe. They need to make them. When they have that reason to believe, they then must make the emotional connection to why it matters to them. This is a fundamental change in the way that we communicate and are raising our children to communicate. It has to be meaningful. We used to talk about buying stuff, and I'll use this as a little bit of a team and family, you know, share. We used to buy things for each other and now we've learned, come the holidays and birthdays and celebratory days, it's not the stuff, it's the time and experience. They want to share things. They want to create memories to do things. Matter of fact, just before this, you were talking about the two weeks that you and your family secretly at the end of June get together. People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. That's right. And they are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it. So who's telling a better story? But it's not the better story, it's the meaningful story. How you uncover why you do what you do, why the world is a better place with your organization, is vital to communicate, to be able to attract the buyer the way the buyers buy. They demand to make an emotional connection even if they don't say it. They vote with their dollars. And if you really got into a focus group with them and trust me, we have done many, many of these, especially in the last couple of years, you really get the insights of the culmination of data that I'm telling you. People are buying emotionally, they are emotionally triggered. And the brands who are acting out and taking a stand… You've seen them. You've seen these examples. You've seen it with Nike. You have seen it with Ben and Jerry's, with our ice cream. And you have seen these organizations take a stand and you've seen good PR and bad PR and you've seen outrage and you've seen validation because there's something for everyone. There isn't just one thing for everyone. So how do you, audience members or listener, differentiate yourself in that way? Simple. Not easy. But here's the one thing that I can tell. You can't skip a step. Because when you skip a step, it doesn't work. We have learned time and time again, with client after client, when we rush through building a foundational brand. I'll just leave it as, when we skip the foundational steps, we miss something. We miss the opportunity to connect with the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand where the buyer is, what the buyer is searching for. So we talk about marketing and attracting these things. But at the same time, let's put that all aside. We need to understand who you are and what they want, what matters to them. If you build your journey and you skip a step and you're missing information, it is just another reason for them to leave the funnel and not to go further. You know, I personally would rather attract, let's just say I was looking for an applicant. I had a new job position. I personally would much prefer, matter of fact, this was another moment. It's funny where my mind went here. I was at a networking event and it was all about recruitment and retention. This was a big hot button. How do we do that? Well, they opened this roundtable discussion and they're like, oh, well, our advertisement attracted 85 qualified people. But we got like 300 resumes. And when it got to my turn, I said, Who has time to look at 85 resumes? I'm hoping that only 12 people apply so that I can get further, deeper down into whether you are a good fit. Are you in the right place in your life, career, journey to be in this company, in this position, in this culture? Will you affect positive change? And that spun the conversation in a completely different way. Wait a minute, how do you just get 12 applicants? Then I went through the, Hey, it's dating. I'm not trying to sell you who we are, I'm actually trying to figure out who you are. And are you at the right stage with the right skills and the balance to fit this nucleus of an agency, of a family that we are. And are you the right fit? We can always train for skill, but at the same time, they need certain levels of skills, sometimes more advanced skills. And we just got into a whole discussion of, This is broken: writing an advertisement to sell your position is broken. And you know what? You're seeing it. Look what's going on with talent in the last three years. I mean, in my industry, the senior talent is either being laid off or exiting because they choose not to have a life like that anymore. They want remote work. They want freedom and flexibility. They want to affect positive change, not the way we did before. Work has changed, buyers have changed. Recruiting has changed. Is it a good fit? Are you at the right place in your career for this juncture? And it's just unbelievable. Andi Simon: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I want to follow your thoughts. As our listeners are thinking about their own, both their own journeys as well as those of their business and the products they're selling, I'd like to create a metaphor here, because what you're saying is that the people who work inside and the people who are our clients and their clients are really in a system, an ecosystem, and your staff can only do good jobs if the folks who you're working with align with the basic three value, you know, purpose, values, and story approach you have. But their clients have to be in alignment as well. So there's a long alignment thought, a visual, in my head. They often say that the words we use create the worlds that we live in. Humans are meaning makers. And so you're sharing with the audience the meaning that you give to both work and to the work you do in a very interesting and important way. It's not a job; you're part of this whole process that's aligning with the folks who we serve, to align with their folks. The thing that I'd like you to reflect on a little bit is, how do your clients get to know their clients better, whether it's a customer, if it's B2B, how do they serve them better? I've done enough focus groups in my life to never really want to do another one, but I'm an anthropologist and I love to observe and hang out and say, what do you do? My job is to listen to the conversations without judging them, and also without asking the people who are conversing, What does this really mean without listening to the stories they tell? Storytelling is actually the very best way to capture the reality that they're living. But how do you help your clients and your team better understand this changing world of buyers out there, and the channels with which they find solutions to whatever that problem is? Is that too big a question again, or is that something. Fran Biderman-Gross: It actually isn't. I start with, you can't skip a step. Everybody has the courage to take a step back and look at the journey. It starts with insight because ultimately, what matters to our clients is that we understand their clients. Agreed? Andi Simon: Agreed. Fran Biderman-Gross: Great. So I've got two sets of clients I'm serving. I can't serve one without the other. And in almost every case, almost every case, when clients come to us, they think they understand their clients. And we go through a process. To get to the right. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying we don't have the data to understand whether that is proof positive or reactive. That points me on the right journey when I think about the age old questions of, how do I hire an agency? Why do I need an agency? I start with helping me understand your business and where is it going? Because you're clear, your business objective dictates the marketing strategy and then resulting in the tactics we take. So when you think about what that is, I can't skip the brand component because it starts with who are you? What do you stand for? Why do you exist? How is the world with a better place with you in it? And at the other end of that is, why should my customers care? Give me a reason to believe or I go somewhere else.  And there's a lot of space between my hands right now. And if I had a bigger screen, I would give you more space. But you have to really not skip a step. So you have to get clear here. First, phase one: discovery, understanding your position and all the things I just listed. We could talk about the three keys. That is what I call the minimum viable brand. I like MVP things. Products and brands. So I've taken that and said, how can we make this affordable because everybody listening is going oh, redoing a brand. It takes six months and tons of money and six figures and I'm like, no it doesn't. No it doesn't. It doesn't. We've created a process inside of about 10 to 12 weeks, maybe slightly longer depending on scheduling. We can rectify this. We don't necessarily have to just create a gap analysis. We can actually create the analysis and fix things. So we actually have an actionable place to start. So in that discovery, of course, we're going to do all the things that you think about, right? The competitive analysis is aspirational, actually. What do my customers really want? What do I stand for? That gives me insights into what I call a brand foundation with your MVP. And the way I describe it is, like your brand is built on two layers. First the verbal, we get the verbal right? We can go to the visual and we can create translation so that the brain understands that there is a connection between them, the visual and the verbal. And then we put a good layer in there called a brand idea. What's the big idea or the zip code as we call it? What does that mean? That's how I begin to make a connection and start to put that in the world. And we go to unlock the second phase, usually three, sometimes four months, could be six if we need more data. It's always about data. Take about a couple of weeks to get whatever the campaign is up and running in real time. I don't have to do massive, big focus groups that take a long time anymore. I can just literally go into the market and start to see how people react to messaging. Andi Simon: That's true. Fran Biderman-Gross: In fact, I can even add a step. And do you know, I could probably spend three weeks doing message testing, literally message testing. If you are this type of demographic, how do you react to these things? And we can learn before we actually go to market. So three months is not a long time when you think of the longevity of your organization. Don't you want to get an audience message, audience message fit? Then you've got a strong brand that people are reacting to that have the criteria of your clients or like your clients. So then when you go into the market, you can begin to go, oh, can I talk to you, to my funnel? Can I direct you to my funnel? How do we nurture you? Where do sales come in? Everybody gets on the phone and goes, could you take over my LinkedIn? I need to get sales there. Could you help me explore TikTok because that's where I could sell direct now. And that's not the answer. The answer is, let's help me understand your business. The tactical solution has to be a result of a strategic decision that will then add value to the business. Andi Simon: You know, I always watch our time because a half hour or so is good for our listeners, but I don't want to cut us off yet. I have a couple of things to add to your wonderful understanding of how to build a business in this modern world that we're in. We were HubSpot partners for a number of years, and we really do love inbound marketing, and inbound marketing makes the assumption that it is less about what you're pushing out and a lot about what people are searching for. Google has created a whole new marketplace, and it isn't putting it on a shelf in a store. It's more, what are the words you're using to find a solution to something, to a problem. We come up on the first page of Google, thank you very much, because of the content marketing of a corporate anthropologist, a Blue Ocean Strategy expert. I can't compete with the book, but I can be an expert. I can do culture change in New York. I can do all kinds of words that get people to come and hire us, or at least find us and want to know more about us. That is a very neat way of understanding that. But it's going to go even faster and farther because the content is going to have to be relevant and change. And it isn't the channel of LinkedIn or Facebook or the website. I still like the website, I like the others, but I really love what search can do for you., but it means that we have to go backwards, outside in, instead of just inside out. Your thoughts, Fran. Fran Biderman-Gross: You need data to do that, right? The proof is in the data because design is always subjective. And what has happened today, again my opinion, people can disagree. Andi Simon: I agree, but they can disagree. Fran Biderman-Gross: Yeah, agencies are so fragmented and specialized that if you know you are searching for just a Google AdWords specialist, you should hire them. But what are you giving them to work on? Is that proven in a data point? Otherwise you are chasing an unproven theory. Andi Simon: Yeah. Fran Biderman-Gross: And yes, I caution the audience, listeners out there who have several different agencies who are employed right now and probably doing great work. The question is, is it the best work? Is it the work that actually is strategically tied to adding value to the company? I feel like I spend a lot of time talking about this because many don't realize how much is buried in a marketing budget that's actually allocated across a channel. That shouldn't necessarily be. And some things should be. So like, right-sizing all of that and then trying to understand the return on investment. I think this is really the bug for me. When you look at very large agencies and very large companies, they have spreadsheet after spreadsheet and depth and depth and depth. They understand their acquisition costs, their lead generation costs. They understand all of these things. And it's a behemoth of effort to put together, to be able to actually get that. But I really believe that small- to medium-sized companies deserve to do marketing right. And that's the agency model that I have brought to this market for those who understand and want to do strategic marketing. I have an all-in-one solution. So there's no finger pointing. We didn't get the return. Why? Oh, the odd word guy. Oh the content person. Oh, this. Oh, that. It's not that. We have to put it all together under the umbrella and under that you start with the business objective, the marketing strategic plan with the tactical execution. If that execution on that budget doesn't add value, you shouldn't do it, myself included. You shouldn't do it. Hope I answered the question. I got off on a tangent, but there's so much wrong with things today. And we think, as business owners, myself included, we think we're experts at everything and we're not. Everything is so much more confusing these days. Andi Simon: But let's pause because I would rather us pause here, perhaps have you come back in a short time and take the conversation to the next stage, because I think that the times are fast changing. I was reading about Lenovo putting AI into their PCs to better know you, so that they can manage your virtual assistant and know when your calendar is. It would say, “Good morning, it's time for you to get up, and these are the three things you're going to do today.” Oh my goodness. I do think, though, that the listeners as well as us who are in the industry of helping, you're helping companies develop their business, build them, build your staff, so they have purpose. It is not inconsequential. It is very meaningful. And humans are meaning makers. We decide with our eyes and our heart, not our head. The head sort of justifies it. When you understand the human being, then all of what Fran has been saying today takes on a, What do you do with it? You know, I get it. I understand humans. Now, what do I do to build a business that will thrive in fast changing times? And I'll tell you, it's a good time to pause, step back and think about that question. What is it you are doing? Is it more of the same? Maybe cheaper? Are you beginning to really understand the data about your clients and your customers and where they're going? I find this all the time that my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, about which this podcast was named, was about seven of our clients who had gotten stuck or stalled, and they didn't see what was right in front of them. And I must tell you, whether it's a focus group or it's an anthropologist, it's a mindset on the client side to say, oh, that's what you're seeing. Because if they don't see it, it has no meaning at all. I can't tell you how many times I bring back what I saw. And they say, well, that's not true. I said, okay, come look with me. And then they go and they hang out and they listen and they say, oh, that's what you heard. I said, yes, but that's what they're saying. And so it's a time to rethink how you think about your business and how you're running it. And Fran is giving you some really good insights today. Why don't you tell a little bit more about the Advantages company so that we don't leave the audience thinking, oh, how do I find her? And what do I do if I need her? Tell me about your company. Fran Biderman-Gross: Absolutely. I'd be happy to: Advantages.net is how you can find us. I'll throw that into the chat. And we are a purpose-driven agency that does marketing so that you can focus on the things that you are meant to focus on. What does that mean? It means that we're an agency, a strategic-driven agency that has all the capability or a hybrid of capability to work with the vendors. You have to ensure that we bring value to the budget that is spent, so that is meaningful to the business. Now, technically we're strategists. We're designers or writers. We're directors. And everything in between. So that what you see on the inside matches what you see on the outside. Andi Simon: But your purpose is how to assemble those tactical and practical things into a strategy to help our clients. These are the same words that we use: see, feel and think in new ways so they can grow. And I think it is very exciting to share what you do and how you do it, because it is a way of lifting us up off the brink. If you want to soar, then maybe you need to rethink the way you're telling your story, even what it is, and how you're beginning to push it out. So let's wrap up. Fran's information will be, of course, on the podcast blog that we put on SimonAssociates.net. You can find it there and we push it out when it comes out. But it's been an absolute pleasure to have an opportunity to share with you what Fran Biderman-Gross does and what advantages her company can offer if you're thinking about how to rethink your own company and where it's going and how to get there. I'm going to wrap with a little push on my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. It's a great book. It's got 500+ wisdoms of 102 women, each of whom wants to elevate and celebrate women in business. And what's so exciting about it is that people turn a page and change their lives. And I know that sounds interesting, but we actually had a woman write about it on LinkedIn: “I was starting 2024 and I was reading the book, and it inspired me to rethink my year.” And I had a client who was a wonderful client, and she had yellow marked the whole book, and she said, “Wow, I'm going to change the way I'm running my business.” How can a book do that? Simple and easy. It's a wonderful way to do it. You can find Women Mean Business on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookseller. And don't forget to look at the website WomenMeanBusinessBook.Com to tell you more about the authors, the origin of the book, the 500 wisdoms, and the 102 wonderful people inside. So thank you, Fran, for being with us today. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, all of you who come and send us great ideas and bring us wonderful people to share and share the website and the podcast so we can all share our wisdom. We love to help others grow. Bye bye now. Have a wonderful day. Remember my wisdom: Take your observations, turn them into innovations, and boy what you can see. Bye bye now.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

She was absolutely determined to succeed. Hear how you can be too! I always want to bring interesting people to On the Brink with Andi Simon. You will love this interview with Maryles Casto. Her journey has been extraordinary, largely because of her ability to listen carefully, understand people's needs, and create solutions that are part of her personal style and amazing business savvy. Thanks to an unquenchable can-do attitude and sheer hard work, Maryles made her travel agency the go-to travel company in Silicon Valley, serving the biggest names in tech and beyond. Listen to her story, get inspired, and please share. Watch and listen to our conversation here About Maryles: “Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense” Born in the Philippines, Maryles Casto is a pioneering travel industry executive and entrepreneur with 47 years of experience founding and leading companies to profitability. A former Philippine Airlines flight attendant, Casto created and helmed Silicon Valley-based Casto Travel, the West Coast's largest privately owned travel management agency. (Casto Travel was frequently ranked among the Top 100 Fastest Growing Businesses in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, and ranked second in revenues among Silicon Valley women-owned businesses by Silicon Valley Business Journal in 2006.) In 2019, she sold the company to Flight Centre Travel Group of Australia. She is also the founder and owner of Casto Travel Philippines, Inc., as well as chairwoman and CEO of MVC Solutions, which provides travel industry businesses with back-office support, accounting and other services. Maryles has served on many business, civic and philanthropic boards, including the Commonwealth Club of California. She has been International Chair of the Committee of 200, an invitation-only group for the world's most successful entrepreneurs, and she is a founding member of the Northern California branch of the International Women's Forum. You can connect with Maryles on LinkedIn and her website, or email her at maryles.casto@castotravel.ph. Key takeaways from our interview: Business is all about anticipating the client's needs. If you can't believe in what you or your company is, how can you go out and sell? It's not what you do. It's what the clients are asking for. “There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.” It's time for us to be kind to each other. More stories of women who dreamed big and achieved success in business:  Debra Clary—Yes, You Can Become The Curious Leader You Were Meant To Be! Roseann and Clara Sunwoo—How Did Roseann And Clara Sunwoo Build A Successful Women's Fashion Brand? Gemma Toner—An Exciting Woman Took A Moment Of Inspiration To Transform Other Women Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: We're giggling. But welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. My job is to get you off the brink, and our podcasts are here to bring people to you whom you might not know or meet people who have stories to share that are going to help you change your story. Now remember, every time you hear someone's story, your own brain begins to shift things around until you go, oh, I can do that! Or wow, what a great idea. And so the whole idea of a podcast, whether you visualize it and see it or you listen to it, is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can soar. And that's why I bring wonderful people here, and people bring wonderful people to me. To be here today is just going to start out a little bit different. The co-author of our book, Edie Frazier, who is on the bottom of our screen here, she and I wrote Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And it's been quite a journey. And as Maryles Casto, who's come to us through Edie has said, is that turning a page and changing your life is really amazing. But that's what we wanted to do. And I wanted Edie to introduce Maryles to you, because she's very important in her own life. And then Maryles will talk about her own journey so that you can learn from it, because there's wisdom here that is going to be difficult to get from reading her bio or looking at her great website. So this is an opportunity for us to share. And in sharing, we can all grow together. Edie, thank you for joining us. Please, I can introduce Maryles Casto when you're done more formally, but this is so special for you. Please tell us about your experiences with Maryles Casto and why it makes you smile so.   Edie Frazier: A joy to say thank you to a dear friend, Maryles Casto, because we go years without talking to each other. But when we get together and reminisce, we think of the qualities of a leader, a true trailblazer, and the best of friends. You know, Maryles wrote her book A Hole In The Clouds: From Flight Attendant to Silicon Valley CEO. And she did it. And she built this major travel business where she was the icon, and she knew all the founders in Silicon Valley who trusted her, respected her, and built with her. And she built that business across the US and world and runs the business now in the Philippines from her home there. But she gives joy and support, and she's the best you can find and firm of that word trust and respect and caring and she lives a legacy. So Maryles, I just want to say thank you for the friendship and know your spirit is in each of us who have gotten to know you, adore you, and we've got years ahead to salute one another. But I just say to Maryles Casto, you are the true blue of the hole in the sky.  Andi Simon: Oh. Maryles Casto: I love you, too. Andi Simon: Edie, that's beautiful. Maryles, do you want to respond to Edie before she takes off?  Maryles Casto: That's what friends are for is our song. Keep smiling and that's what friends are for. And, Edie, I just want you to know, can I plug this? This is my book.  Andi Simon: Yes, of course.  Maryles Casto: That's for you. And I want to talk about why this cover. We can talk about it later because it's natural. It happened. And the world needs to read that book on the sky and the hole in the sky. We love you, buddy.  Andi Simon: This is such a wonderful way to introduce you. And maybe we will start almost with the book for a moment. But for my listeners, you know, before we jump in, I just want to give you a little context. Maryles Casto was born in the Philippines and lives in the United States and has for most of her life. She's a successful leader. But when you hear her story, she really is an explorer. And there's something about the way she has tackled her life and built something really special that's so important to share. But here's a quote that I think captures it. And remember, I'm an explorer. Sometimes I'm a philosopher or a futurist. But Maryles, listen, I care a great deal because we've been to 37 countries, not to the Philippines yet, but this is the way we discover. I've yet to see a problem where the best solution is to hide or be ignorant. It's only through contact with other cultures and peoples, and in their contact with us, that we can hope to bridge the divide between people of the world. As an anthropologist, my job is to help people see and feel and think in new ways through a fresh lens. And today, that's just what we're going to do. So I'm not going to read your bio, but I'm going to ask you to talk to our audience about your own journey. You started in the Philippines. You came here. You capture it much better than I could ever. And then what we'll do is, we'll sort of migrate into the lessons learned, the things that you, the wisdoms, you want others to understand. The kind of sharing person that you are and the kind of glorious life that you've lived. Maryles, please. Who's Maryles and how is this book been sort of this triumph of what's happened? Because we'll come back to your book.  Maryles Casto: Okay. So let me tell you a story. I was born in the Philippines, and I was raised on a sugar plantation. So that was my background with my family and I think my inspiration really comes from my mother because she was always so kind and because we were privileged. My friends were all the workers, the children of the workers. So I developed a kind of relationship where there was no class basis for me. I mean, everybody is the same. And so I really valued that. But also, my father was my closest friend. And I learned a lot from my father as well. And my father was very competitive. I remember one time, and this was when I was growing up in the Philippines, we have a fair every year, and so I was entered as one of the contestants. I wanted to be the queen. I wanted to win. It really started about wanting to win. We arranged it. There were three candidates. And the big dinner that night, it was a gala dinner, and they were contributing money in the ballot box. And I was watching my father, and I was competing with the Chinese woman. The father was very wealthy, and the father kept putting some money into the ballot box and my father was doing nothing and I thought, doesn't he realize I need to win. But what I did not realize, and this is my father's competition. You never let the competition know what you're doing. But he had already positioned somebody who was standing very close to the ballot box. And at the very last minute, maybe a minute before it closed, he drops this whole bundle of money. That's when I became the queen.  Andi Simon: Uh, that was not deception, but that was smart.  Maryles Casto: Smart because he knew that he had to do it this way. And so I learned that, and that I was one of my first lessons in my business. I can be very open, but also never give, you know, everything that you can in the competition. I never liked schooI because I always wanted to be outside. I get very bored, especially when they tell you to do number one, number two, number three. And all I could think about is, why not do number ten? What do we have to go through this whole process of developing? And I also couldn't pay attention. I didn't realize at that time that my world was outside and I was very mischievous. And I remembered one time when they were trying, it was a Catholic school run by the nuns who were very strict. Of course, the rebel in me already said, I don't like to lose. I don't like this, and I don't like you in a way. I was in class and I was doing something mischievous. And anyway, I was reported. And so they punished me. They punished me by walking around with this garbage can on my head. And so what did I do? I went into the classrooms and then I started dancing. So they didn't know what to do with me. But I created the whole fiesta. So I was already learning through all these things that I was doing, and I think I applied a lot of that in my business world because I never saw the challenges. I always just went. And I thought that, you know, I'm going to try it.  So I was in the Philippines. I ended up being a flight stewardess, and at the time, being a flight stewardess was the top of the field because when you were traveling, you were entertaining. And I learned so much when you were a flight attendant at that time. It took two months to train. You had to learn about the client's needs. It was very much anticipating the client's needs. A passenger came on board. That was your responsibility to make sure that they remembered what the flight was about. And you remembered everything about the passenger. So I was very focused on the passenger's relationship and how they felt. I was in the Philippines a long time, and I had never dated an American, and I was introduced to this American. And needless to say, after two days, I decided I was going to marry him. Of course, he didn't know anything about it. But when we have a mindset, he couldn't say no because I was determined. So needless to say, after that he fell in love with me, of course. And so we got married and I had to break this news to my father. Ah. My father. My father's Spanish, my mother's half Swiss. And he thought that this was just going to be one of those little romances. He had no idea that I was going to get married and move to this country. And it just broke his heart. But I was determined to come to this country, and I did. But my husband did not have any money. We had money, but my husband did not. And so it came to fruition when we were on our honeymoon, when all of a sudden we had to go on that $5 a day. Remember that book? And I thought, this is not going to work, because if I was hungry, I wanted to have this restaurant here. Now, we had to walk for 20 minutes to find a restaurant that was in that book. I hated that book. And then I realized that this was changing my life. And when we arrived in the United States, I had nothing. You couldn't fly as an airline stewardess if you were married. So I knew I had to do something. I remember one time we were going into this grocery store, and my husband was showing me comparison shopping, and I thought, why? And even now, I'm sorry to laugh. No, but, honey, I'm reading my book, and I'm laughing because I remember all this. I remember looking at this mayonnaise and he would say, well, what mayonnaise should you buy because of the ounces? And I thought, I have no idea. All I know is, it's my level. But I think my message is, I was having so much fun. Everything I did, I enjoyed. I was too passionate and so finally he said, you have to find a job. And so I thought, well, I don't have any experience. So he said, well what about Avon. And then I read something about Avon. So I thought, I can do that. So first I had to learn about cold calling because I'd never done anything cold calling. So we would practice. And this is so much fun, I mean, reliving what we had to go through. So I went on a cold call and I was petrified, I wouldn't get out of the car. I would knock on the door. Finally, I ended up buying all my things. And so I did not make any money and that was not my job. So I quit that and then ended up working for Macy's in the gift department, wrapped all the gifts, and I was so bad they fired me. So I thought, I've got to do something. And then a girlfriend said, why don't you become a travel agent? And that is how my world opened up. And when I started working for agencies, my first client in one agency that I worked with was Intel, and they were just a hundred people. And then I had GE. And so I started working in the corporate market. But I didn't last long because the owner was horrible. One thing I learned is, he did not take care of the employees. It was all about him and his family. But none of us were able to participate on trips. So I learned a lot about what not to do from him. And so, my girlfriend and I were running the corporate department. She was running the vacations, and I was getting so frustrated. And my husband said, why don't you start your own. I was petrified, I'd never done anything like this. But, you know, you try it. And with $1500 each, we partnered together and we opened this agency. But I did not tell anybody where we were going. I did not tell our clients. And so we opened this little agency in Los Altos. We had no money. We had Repo Depot, I mean, you know, name it. It's the same Silicon Valley how it started up, holding the hole in the ceiling. And I waited and waited and there was no clients because I had not told anybody. So I decided I was going to go cold calling, things that I hated the most. But I was dressed to the hilt, I had on my high heels, and I started walking around in the Silicon Valley park, and I was walking. And then I saw this gentleman that was standing, uh, it was a company called Rome Rollin. And of course they were bought by IBM. Very, very big now. And there was the owner, I think was in there in one of the corner suites with a glass window. And he was looking at me because I was pacing back and forth and he thought I was a street walker. You can not say the first street walker. And all of a sudden my heel broke. And so I'm limping towards this receptionist and I said, I need to see that man in the corner. And at that time, in the valley, you don't need reservations, you don't need appointments. Everybody could just walk in. So I walked in and he came out and then we became friends. And that was really the start of the whole Silicon Valley movement, because he was one of the founders. And through him, I started getting more and more business and then I got Steve Jobs and I got Apple. So it went crazy. And then again, I could talk about my story, but I know that there might be questions you might probably want to ask me.   Andi Simon: Well, but you see, in some ways you've given us a nice foundation for how to begin the challenges of, I don't know how to do that, and I really don't like to do this, but I tried that. And next thing you know, you and your friend and you still have to find some customers. And this isn't sort of it. They don't drop into your lap. Although I must confess that if you hang out, all of a sudden things begin to happen. You were talking to them and learning from them. You began to craft something other than booking a ticket on a plane to go somewhere. And what I loved about what you did was that you created something far bigger. And I have a hunch you began to see things that they would ask for and you'd figure out how to do. But I'm putting words into your mouth. So how did you grow? Because you didn't grow a little. You grow with a whole different mindset completely.  Maryles Casto: It was so fast. And I think there were so many. We were growing so fast. We couldn't control our growth. And, you know, since I was, and we talk about how you felt as being the first woman because there really was no one, there was no other woman. There were men in my industry, but I never even thought about it. All I knew was that I was not going to fail. I was going to do whatever it took to be successful, and I was damn good. I was very, very good. And I believed in that. Yes, because if you can't believe in what you or your company is, how can you even go out and sell? So I knew I would be pitching. I'd go in and before, I would pitch directly to the vice president or the presidents. But as it changed, you have to go through purchasing, you have to go through all this. So the dynamics change. But on a 1:1, give me the CEO. And I was a CEO and I would always say, I'm in the same seat as you are. If I founded this company with $1,500, and I would have this argument with Steve because I said, if you weren't given the $200 million, where would you be? So I was very respectful of them. But I also thought, you know, tell me when you have started your company on your own with the seat of your pants, and then I'll respect you more. So don't get any baloney about all this, you know, because anyway, I just went ahead. I just focused and I thought, I will make this happen. And again the growth. But then we also suffered because we couldn't perform as much as we wanted to because we were making mistakes. And finally I said, stop it. We're not accepting any clients. We have to figure out what is wrong with our company, because there definitely was something wrong. We were not delivering the product we talked about. We were not paying attention to the customer. So I decided we would clean house and we were hiring people we shouldn't have hired, I learned. And so gradually when we started saying, we can't accept the account, we can't accept. And then they respected me for that. And then gradually we started fixing. We did our own training. I'm very focused on customer service. For me it is my religion. And you have to pay attention. And it's not what you do. It's what the clients are asking for. And even long before that, I started doing profiles. Each of my clients that had this black book, I would write everything. Who wanted coffee, what kind of newspaper they had, every single detail. This was before anybody thought about putting it all down, but I did. And then I also came up with a new service. I decided I was going to do my own Visa passport. I did not want anything touching my client except me. So anything they needed, not just the travel part of it, it's how you get to the airport. So I had airport service, people with uniforms. They're all in the yellow necktie. I had a limo service that would pick up all my VIP clients. They didn't have to ask me. I anticipated every move they made because my responsibility is, one, they call Casto.  I was responsible for them from when they left for the airport or when they left their home until I brought them home. I was sitting on that flight with them. I was getting in the car with them. I was in the hotel with them. I thought about only the clients, so. And I made sure everyone in our company understood that we don't survive without our clients, but we have to think ahead and anticipate whatever they need.  Andi Simon: Let's think about it, though, because nobody came and said to you, you're missing a major part of the business. You're selling. You weren't selling anything, really. What you had done is become a colleague of your clients, right? An extraordinarily important part of their experiences. You were and it's really a beautiful story about, it's not a travel ticket. It's not a limousine. It's this whole experience where I don't want you to have to worry about a thing. And I understand the whole. So you didn't even have to tell them, do you want this or do you want that? You said, I got it all mapped out for you. You don't have to worry.  Maryles Casto: One call.  Andi Simon: One call. Now, how did you begin to scale? Because often I have entrepreneurs who arrive at 10 million or 20 million and want to scale to 100 million, and they're not sure how to do that. You scaled and you started to talk about training. I mean, that's really what we're talking about here, is scaling. How did you do it?  Maryles Casto: Well, I started buying agencies again. Recession, remember when we had this major recession. And I thought, this is an opportunity, I can buy now. And I decided I was buying agencies, but strategically, I had 15 offices all over the United States because it had to be a very strategic move. And by the time, we had offices everywhere, but we were also very strategic. I did not want to just be Silicon Valley. I would be putting all my eggs in one basket. So my offices were in San Jose, in Palo Alto. I decided I needed a different kind of a base. I needed the banks. I needed a government contract. So I went to San Francisco and expanded my business there. And then I decided I needed 24 hour service because a client doesn't end at 5:30. When they travel, what happens? You know, they have to have a way of calling us. I didn't want them to call the airlines. They were my clients. They were my responsibility. I couldn't grow in Silicon Valley anymore because we were all looking for the same, we needed people. So I was having lunch with one of the senators who had come to the Valley for a business opportunity, and he was the senator from South Dakota. And he said to me, you know, South Dakota, we could use some business. So I had never been to South Dakota, Rapid City. So I flew there with him. He said, let's just check it out. So we put a blind ad to just say that we were coming for interviews. We got 500. Work for you.  Andi Simon: Wow.  Maryles Casto: There is a market here. But what I wanted to do was put my training there. But I also wanted my 24 hour service. No one was offering 24 hour service at that time. The airlines were, but not any travel agency. So these were all the things. I shouldn't say I, because there were a lot of people involved. But I would say I had the vision that you have to look at and say, what now? What else can you do? How can you enhance your service? But what is it that the clients need? And so as we were developing the corporate market, there was no one who could touch us in the corporate market because we had every account there was. And I also worked very closely with a lot of the venture people. So when they were funding companies, of course, for travel, I owned it. Andi Simon: Branded you, right? They endorsed you and you just came along.  Maryles Casto: Yeah. I would say, you know, you're funding this company. How do you know they're protecting you? You know, travel is the second largest expense. Working with me, I will guarantee you, because I also bought stock for all these companies because I thought we have to be investors as well. So even if it's small. But I felt that every flight I was looking at that as a shareholder. Andi Simon: You are so wise. And so it's fascinating listening to you because once you got going, nothing stopped. You just keep figuring out pieces. You said something important, though, and it's not a bad time to sort of migrate into the team. How did you support yourself around you with smart people? And what were you looking for in that team? They gave you the ability to multiply. They were your multipliers. What kinds of folks came in and how? One of the things that I read was that you treated this like a family.   Maryles Casto: I wanted them to feel proud. I bought my partner out after two years, I felt like she was so worried about expanding. She was so worried about losing money. And I thought, you know what, we're still very small. If we lost money, if we went belly up, I want to build it up myself. I don't want to drag her down. So I bought her out. And then we had to come up with a name because at that time, I think we had nine employees. When I bought her out, she wanted to do the vacation side only. She was not interested in the rest of it. So I had to come up with them and I said, okay, what is our name going to be? Because our original name was Travel Experience. And so we had this powwow and they said, well, why don't we call it Casto, it's your name. And I thought, no, I have to be very careful because if I give you my name, you have to guarantee you're going to back it up. It's not just about me, it's about all of us. So I then created this where they had to belong to this elite group, which happened to be customer travel. So I had all of us in uniform. They helped design this uniform, and we would go to all the functions in our uniform.  Andi Simon: But you know the symbolic meaning of that. You know, you're a meaning maker and the symbolism is not inconsequential. They belonged. People wanted to belong. And therefore they knew how to behave, how to think. And they took it home to their families, and they were part of something much bigger than just having a job. Correct?  Maryles Casto: Yeah. I made them very proud of being part of us. I said, it's not me, it's us. The Casto is you together. Of course, everybody thought it was Castro. And they look at me and say, oh, Castro. No. There's no answer. But you know what it was. I mean, we had so much fun. We really did. We put events together and the company would come in with different hats. We come in with different costumes. And, I couldn't wait to get into the office. And they felt the same way. There was so much joy. Lots of sorrow, too. I mean, we cry. I mean, we all shared a divorce. But we were together.  Andi Simon: Yes.  Maryles Casto: And that is very important.  Andi Simon: Amazing, amazing, amazing because you did it and it worked. And it became something well beyond itself. I want to get to your book, but also you grew it and then you added new services and then you began to see it grow, and then you finally sold it. What was the impetus?  Maryles Casto: Well, you know, when we started the business, about five years later, we got a big offer. This company, and in fact, this is a funny story because this company was a very large company, and they were interested in buying us because they wanted to get into the Silicon Valley when it was just starting. It was getting a lot of attention. And so, they made an offer and I said, no, I didn't want to, but anyway. And he and I  had a good relationship because when Intel became such a big company, purchasing people came in, and then they decided I was too small now. And they were concerned about my capacity to service them. So he was very, very large, one of the largest agency in the United States. So they gave him the business. So we partnered together. And so that's when he really wanted to take my business. And me, I said, no, it wasn't going to work. So that was the first venture. And the second one was a company that was from Omaha, Nebraska, another very large company. And at that time we had Andy Grove, who became chairman of Intel. And Andy became a very good friend because, again, he was a client and he became a friend because I knew everything about his travel. And he was so paranoid that if I wasn't going to take care of him, something would happen to his travel. So the second offer came in and we said, okay, we'll take it seriously. The gentleman flew in from Omaha and somewhere, somehow, I just did not feel that they were the right partners. They didn't understand Silicon Valley. And I just felt that it's not going to grow. It didn't have the same spirit, they weren't willing to be, it takes a different personality. So we thought the deal was done. And at the last minute I had to call them to say, okay, you know, we've arranged it. I picked up the phone and I couldn't say yes. I said no, and oh my God, both my son and Andy were furious with me because I said no. And I said, it just can't work. So I knew that we had to do something. And because of my son, the offer came in and it was a really good offer, and we knew that the time would come that we would have to exit. And so we sold it two years ago. We sold it a month before the pandemic.  Andi Simon: Oh, my, timing is everything.   Maryles Casto: And now I'm a rich woman.  Andi Simon: But, you know, I have a hunch you've been rich through this whole journey, haven't you?  Maryles Casto: Yeah, I have, I have, yeah.  Andi Simon: You know, the financial richness is nice, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure you worked for work's sake. I think you worked for the absolute... Maryles Casto: Love of it.  Andi Simon: For the love, you know, for the joy that you gave others, for the way in which you helped their lives do better. Am I misreading that? And this was spiritual and almost religious on your part, right? Correct.  Maryles Casto: Yes. It was, it is, and it still is. I still communicate with the people that, when we sold the company, we always kept the Philippines. The Philippines when we were growing so fast and we knew that we had to expand. I wanted to expand internationally, and I knew it was either India or the Philippines, and I knew the Philippines because I was from the Philippines and I knew the customer service, all the technology driven, because our business was very technology driven. I knew it was about personal travel and I knew that hospitality. It's like somebody said, it's Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense. That's how somebody describes me.  Andi Simon: Well, that's terrific, but that's a great image of it, right? I mean, because you blended all of these together in such a way that you created a whole new way of doing things. But, my goodness, it worked, and it's really brilliant listening to you talk about it. Talk about the book. Was this a way of capturing this and having a legacy as a book about this journey that you just shared or something different?  Maryles Casto: You know, it was something that I knew that I felt like there was a book in the making. I just never got the chance to sit down. And this was after we sold the company, and I was in the house and I was meeting with some friends, and just all of a sudden it just came to me. I had to write my book. I said, I'm ready for that. And I thought the story had to be told. I wanted other people to read what I went through and how much I have enjoyed my life. And I wondered, my grandchildren, maybe not now, but later on when they're older. Of course I dedicated the book for them, but I don't think they fully understood the challenges. But when they're grown. And maybe one day when they have a business, they can look at my book and say, you know what, Grandma did something.  And I have to share the coverage. And remember, I was covered.  Andi Simon: Yeah. Tell us about the cover.  Maryles Casto: This cover was an actual one. And when I decided when we were doing so well and I thought, we needed exposure now. We wanted people to know more about Casto Travel, not just in the Valley, but other areas as well. And so I had this girlfriend who started her own business, a PR business. And so I called her as a brand and said, listen, I'm ready to do something. I want the exposure of Casto more globally or more internationally or more regionally. And so she said, okay. So San Jose Mercury News was going to do an article and the photographer said, I can do your shot, but I don't want to do it here. I have an idea. Meet me at the airport at 6:00 in the morning and we'll do a shoot. And I said, oh my God, what is this about? So I met him at the airport and he had this truck, and in this truck was this desk. And he told me, bring the thing that you really want to put on the table. And I said, okay. But I thought, well, maybe it's just at the airport. So I brought these two doves or two birds, because Casto Travel is all about birds because that was my logo. I want to fly. I want to spread my wings. So I brought these two birds and then I thought, where are we going? He said, just follow me. And at that time, nobody can tell you, there's no security, no nothing. So he drove this guy and his truck to the runway, and he put the desk in. He said, no, we'll stay here. Let's get this all organized and let's wait for the plane. I said, wait for the plane. It took three hours to get just the angle.  Andi Simon: Oh, God.  Maryles Casto: I'll put it up. I thought I had to use this book.  Andi Simon: Just come in so we can see it, put it up again and hold it there for a second. Ah, so that's you. And that's the plane over you and this story is as beautiful as the cover of the book. We would not know why that book cover is so important, but that is cool. That captures you, doesn't it?   Maryles Casto: And, you know, the flying was because my father, when we were little, when I was little, and I was growing up, my father had an airplane. He had a small airplane, and he would be traveling from different farms. I always loved to fly. And so my father and I would go up flying. And he would say, okay, Maryles, watch. Look for the hole in the clouds so that we could get in and we could fly higher, and then we would do our maneuvers. And that was in tribute to my father. There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.  Andi Simon: Yeah, but your whole life has been finding that hole in the clouds and soaring up through this to get on top. This is something. Sometimes I ask the people I'm interviewing about some lessons that you wish someone had told you then. But I think that your story isn't easy to capture in a lesson or two. Unless there's something you think your younger self wishes somebody had told you. Is there something that you can share?  Maryles Casto: Oh gosh, somebody told me and so many people told me things. I don't know. For me, it's maybe kindness. For me, it's not a word we use a lot, and it's time for us to be kind to each other. And you don't have to be a jerk. No, really, and I, this was my actual experience. I was invited by United Airlines to go to the Academy Awards. At the time, we were big producers of United. And so I went. And then that night, this was Pretty Woman. Remember that, Julia Roberts? Anyway, we were staying at this beautiful hotel, and when we were being picked up in the limo, they were invited too, Larry Allison was invited with his girlfriend, and she was just fantastic looking. And then John Chambers from Cisco, so we were all going together. And when we got down, the limo was there, the door opened, and Larry Allison came in and he closed the door. He says, I don't share my limo. This is an actual story. I don't share my room. And so we just looked at him because at that time, you can't find any limo, especially Academy Awards night. So he drove off and we had to find another limo. And that's when it's the yin and yang. And I said, you know, you really are a jerk. And here's John Chambers. He was so sweet. I mean, the difference between the personalities. And again, I just feel like, if you could just show a little bit more kindness and don't get into your ego. The ego is nothing. What does it really mean?   Andi Simon: Yeah. That's beautiful. The joy that you can give, the kindness that you can show elevates you and someone else. And then an act of kindness that stayed in your mind as a moment that you never want to do again. How can I be kind? Correct.  Maryles Casto: Okay. And that's why I think I'm doing what I'm doing now. I suppose I mentioned to you that I'm starting my foundation because that is what it is really about. I've been so fortunate. And look at me. I'm now into my old age and I love it. I love what I've lived, and I mean that I love it. For me, aging is not a disease. It's something to celebrate. How many of us can say, I've lived it.  Andi Simon: I know, but that's so important because it's true. We're at a point now where we can be. We don't have to become. We can just enjoy the moment.   Maryles Casto: Exactly. I love the whole process of aging. My body is what it is now, and I celebrate everything I have. I celebrate my hair. I no longer am going to dye my hair because I just love being white. I'm doing it. And I think that probably my message is just as we all go through our lives, enjoy the moments you have and don't worry about the rest of the nonsense. There's so much of that.  Andi Simon: I'm going to I wish I didn't have to, but we're going to say goodbye and I'm going to thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you, Edie, for introducing you. But I can understand why her friendship and yours transformed both of you over time. Because Edie is quite remarkable. This has been a gift to me and to our listeners. So thank you. So I'm going to say to our listeners, thank you for coming to On the Brink. I know that today has taken you off the brink. And then we're going to all soar. But the message is kindness and acts of kindness bring joy. So let's not just be nice, help each other also. In our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success that Edie Frazier and myself have written with 102 women about their wisdoms. And like what you heard today from Maryles Casto, the wisdoms help change your own lives. And I will tell you that every event that we're running, people share their wisdom a little like this podcast. And when they do, they are changing. And I've had people who keep coming back and saying, let me tell you what I heard and what I want to share again, and what I care about and what I'm now becoming. I had one woman who had yellow marks on the whole book, and I went, oh my goodness, and couldn't wait to show me her yellow marks. She says, I'm a better leader today. And I went, man, can a book do that? It can. And Maryles Casto, thank you for joining us. So I'm going to thank you so much. Remember everybody to take your ideas, your observations, turn them into innovations. And you too can soar, like Maryles says.  Maryles Casto: Bye bye.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. So be curious! Sometimes, we meet people who make us pause for a moment and ask how we are building the life that we want to live. It is not about mimicking their lives. It is about understanding how they have stopped what they're doing and begun reflecting on whether this was a life they wanted. That's what happened when I met Dr. Deborah Clary. We met through the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). Deb and I were involved in WBC and found ourselves sharing our life journeys in different discussions. She was the right person to bring onto our podcast to share her career and how she has taken a turn in new directions. As you listen in, think about your own life. Watch and listen to our conversation here An accomplished woman leader not afraid to learn new things Dr. Debra Clary is the Founder and CEO of Elevascent, a personal growth and performance development company focused on helping individuals and teams accelerate growth through curiosity. This experience comes from three decades of executive leadership roles at Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel's and Humana. In addition, Dr. Clary is also an author, global speaker, playwright, off-Broadway performer and an award-winning film producer. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organizational development from George Washington University, and received the Ralph Stone Leadership Award for exemplary leadership. She is also a board director for Health E-Commerce. In our podcast, we talk about women discovering their purpose and not letting others define them. And we share Debra's life story as a model for you, our audience, to think about as you step along on your pathway. Own your career, and enjoy it. Contact Debra You can connect with Debra on LinkedIn, Facebook, and her website, or email her at debra@debraclary.com. Want more inspiring stories of women owning their careers and taking charge of their lives? Here are some of our favorites: Shellye Archambeau Is Unapologetically Ambitious And Shows Us How We Can Be Too Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business Sarah Soule—Busting Those Stereotypes of Women Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. As you know, I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I specialize in helping organizations change and particularly the people inside them. And I really like to go looking for people to interview. And many of you send me people to interview. So it's so much fun to share. I look for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words intentionally because you decide with the eyes and the heart. So how something feels is going to help you decide how to think about it. But what matters to me is that unless I can open your mind to see opportunities, possibilities, and be curious, you are going to see what's all around you and opportunities are all there. So today I have a wonderful, wonderful woman to come and share with you her wisdom around curiosities. Debra Clary is a Doctor of Organizational Design, but she's also someone who has culled her skills inside corporate and has now launched herself outside corporate as an entrepreneur to help many companies begin to see themselves through a fresh lens. Very anthropological. Let me tell you a little bit more about her, and then I'll ask her to talk about her own journey, because she's had a really important juncture point. Right now, Dr. Clay is a purpose-driven leader with a compelling message to share. Her enthusiasm lies in inspiring leaders and organizations in achieving business success through their enhancement of strategic alignment, team dynamics, and fostering a culture of curiosity. Now, that is a really big idea, bringing a wealth of experience from her roles and operations, strategy, marketing and people development at prominent companies such as Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel's and Humana.  Debra brings incredible business insights and her dedication is evident in her commitment to working with leaders who aspire to elevate their impact and contribution to their organizations. So she's now writing a book, and she also is performing her own one-person play called A Curious Woman. And she did it Off Broadway, and I watched it streaming, and you can watch it coming up, too. And she's doing it again in Louisville, and she is having a wonderful time celebrating her own success as a curious woman. Debra, thank you for joining me today. Debra Clary: My pleasure. Andi Simon: You know, it's always fun when we share our stories. We're storytellers. We're also storymakers. And when you and I did our fireside chat at the Louisville Leadership Center, we really had a good time getting to know how we each have grown and how our own experiences have opened up opportunities for us. But for our listeners and our viewers who aren't familiar with you, talk about your own journey and why this is such an important point for you. It's a tipping point, opening up a whole new world of opportunity. Who is Debra?  Debra Clary: Oh, well, that's a big question, Andi, but let me let me take a shot at this is. I was the first person in my family to go to college, graduate from college, and went on to get a Masters in Business. And my first job was driving a route truck for Frito-Lay. Andi Simon: I always laugh when you tell me that. You say it so much better than I could. Debra Clary: And my parents were like, Did you really need six years of higher education to do this? But I also recognized that it was an opportunity to start with a great company and they started everybody on a route truck. And the one question I asked was, Are there other women doing this? And they said, Yes. And I said, May I ride with that individual one day to see if I think I can do this? And then I did. And so I spent nearly a decade at Frito-Lay, not on the route truck. I spent about nine months on the route truck in the city of Detroit and then evolved into sales management and then marketing and actually was one that was on the team that launched Flamin Hot, which is now a $1 billion brand for Frito-Lay. It's where I really learned how to market to consumers. How do you understand what consumers need? And from there, I was recruited away by Coca-Cola. I spent almost a decade at Coca-Cola in marketing roles where I got my experience of global marketing and how to really manage a global account. From there I went to Brown-Forman, where I was the VP of Strategy. I worked in the wine division, which was a really tough job, Andi. I mean, I had to spend all this time in Napa Valley tasting wines, trying to understand positioning. It was really tough, but I got through it and then I went to Jack Daniel's. I got really intrigued with culture because I had worked for Fortune 40 companies, and then I went to work for a publicly traded company, but it was still managed by the family, the Brown family. And there were just different dynamics, different cultures that I didn't quite recognize because of my background. And so I said, I'm curious. I want to understand people and culture. I want to understand how I can adapt to different cultures and how I can become a better leader. So I was reading the Wall Street Journal in which George Washington University had an ad in there that they had this cohort program for people that wanted to better understand leadership and culture. Exactly what I was looking for at the doctoral level. And so I went to my boss and said, I'm really passionate about this. And he said, Then go do it. And they completely supported me and funded that. So while sipping wine in Napa Valley, I was also going to school full time. So full time mother, full time employee and then a full time student. And how I did that is, once a month I flew to Washington, DC. I went to school 12 hours Friday, 12 hours Saturday and then I flew home Sunday morning, so that I could be with my children. And I did that for three years. Wrote my dissertation on women in leadership. I just had this real passion on what are the differences in women leadership and how we can continuously support women to step into these really big roles. And then I was recruited away by Humana, a healthcare company. And at first I said, There is no way I'm going into healthcare. I mean soda and snacks and now alcohol. Healthcare just did not seem to fit me. But, they said, You have an opportunity that we are starting a Leadership Institute. With your marketing, your business, your experience, and now with this academic degree, you're the perfect person to help us change our culture. And I was really drawn to those words of changing culture because I had experienced different cultures, but I wasn't quite sure how to do it. I had the academic side of it. I had some opinions, but now I was going to take this step and really put it into play. And so for my first nine years at Humana, I ran the Leadership Institute, and we did everything from assessments to development of our top executives. And then we got really brave and we took our learning outside of the company. And we spent time in Europe and in the US and offered how to understand the healthcare system because we really recognize that if the healthcare system is going to get better and have better outcomes, everyone in the community needs to be connected to it. And we started that with a simulation and we had much success. And then what happened is, we at Humana, we got a new CEO and he called me one day and said, Can you come talk? He said, I'm going to be doing some significant changes on my team. They're going to be off boarding and onboarding, and I need you embedded in the team. You know, 24-7. Your role is to be with us all the time. And so for the last eight years I did that: helping them understand team dynamics, leading their strategy sessions, all their off sites and really about team dynamics and how you get better as a team. And then that drives the business results. And then about a year ago, I said, Wow, I'm still curious on how I can scale my thought leadership outside of the corporate world. And so I made this transition about a year ago. The number one thing I did, as you mentioned: I wrote and performed a one-woman show. I never did that in my life. Had never performed in that way. I'd done keynotes, but never an actual play. And I surrounded myself with people that knew how to do that. And did a sold out show in New York. And now we have one coming up here next month in Louisville, Kentucky. So that is a little bit about my four decades in corporate America. And now my launch to scale my knowledge and my curiosity to other organizations. Andi Simon: I bet. I mean, there are many things that we can talk about today, but I bet that the audience, our listeners, are curious about a couple of things. One of which is, how do you grow like you have grown? Because the changes in places have not simply been taking what you were and applying them. It's changing who you were when you're applying them. This is an ongoing theme. I'm finding the people who are in my new book within Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success are all talking about owning yourself and owning your career. Can you talk a little bit about it and then we'll talk about your curiosity, but I'm also anxious to share with people what you discovered as you moved from being a Frito-Lay route driver all the way up to where you are at Humana, embedded in the organization to help build better what goes on. How does that happen? Debra Clary: That's another big question, Andi. It's not a simple question. I think the things that helped me was that my parents taught me the value of hard work and an education, and that's what I did. I was not afraid to work hard. I wasn't afraid to do the assignments that were given to me. And then couple that with, I am a learner and I'm curious, and I certainly recognized that there was a lot I didn't know, but I was bold enough to ask other people, people that I was admiring or people that had an expertise in that. I love inquiry, I love to have dialogue and discussion around that. And I'll give you an example. When I was with Frito-Lay and I was a regional manager. And I had two babies. And I was just trying to figure out how to manage this new world of motherhood, but wanting to climb the corporate ladder. This woman from headquarters at Frito-Lay flew into Detroit, and my job was to take her around and show her the market and have a conversation about that. And she was just, like, beautiful. Her hair was in place, there was no spit up on her. You know, her suit. I mean, she was just like, she seemed like she had it all together. And I also knew she had children. And on the way to the airport, I got up enough nerve to say, How do you do it? Well, how do you guide me to do this? It's a struggle for me. I'm trying to figure out how to be a good mom and how to be a good executive. And she said, Oh, it's really simple. It's two words. Get help! What do you mean, get help? She says, Have someone that you trust to watch your children. Have someone clean your home. Have someone mow your lawn. I mean, she was just going on and on, and I'm like, But I don't have that kind of discretionary income. I'm making it. But, I'm also trying to save money. And she said, If you don't invest in this, you're never going to get to the next rung because you're always going to be stressed and worrying. And from that point forward, I have said, Get help when I don't know how to do something or I need support, get help. And I recently read this book called, Who Not How. Are you familiar with this? Andi Simon: I'm not. It sounds good. Debra Clary: Extraordinary book about when you're an entrepreneur and you're starting an organization, or even if you have an organization, it's not about you doing the work, it's about you getting people that can help you do the work that you don't have an expertise in that. So building a website, doing software development. Why are you investing your time in that? You need to hire the right people to do that. And in the last three weeks, it's made a significant change in my outlook and my vision for, I can do this. I can actually do this. Andi Simon: I love it, I love your story. You said that's a big, big question, but in some ways you answered it with two words. It is not you alone. It's a team. You said that you took a dysfunctional team and you helped to build a team. And if the team does better, you all do better. So there are two wisdoms already that have popped out, one of which is that it's not a solo job. Even orchestras need to back up the soloist. I mean, there's a whole lot of orchestra going on and sometimes a conductor. But the other part is that it's okay to learn along the way what can be done to help you get somewhere, as long as you have a sense that you're on a journey to go somewhere, and that's what's really interesting and makes me curious about why you didn't stay inside corporate. You might have felt a little stuck or stalled. You ventured out into, I'll call it, a foreign territory. Having been in my own business for 22 years and dealing with entrepreneurs all the time, I taught entrepreneurship at Washington University. It is a foreign country for people who have been inside a corporation. So as you're entering this, it needs a new language. It needs new habits. It needs a new mindset. You know, share with the audience about what you're trying to develop, because you're clearly curious about trying to help people who need to be more curious, become more curious. Right?7 So let's talk about this whole vision of where you're going. Would that be okay? Debra Clary: Yeah. So let me start with how I got on this path. I was sitting next to our CEO in a meeting, and he leaned over and whispered to me, Do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And I said, I don't know, but I'm curious. So that next week just happened to be the 4th of July, and I was going to be on holiday that whole week. I just dug into research on curiosity so that following Monday I go back to work. I lean over to him and I say, It can be learned. And that was that, right? I know all this about curiosity, but that was that. And about a week later, I'm talking about serendipity. Somebody that ran a very large division for our company called and said, We'd love for you to come do a keynote in Austin. Can you do it? And I go, Absolutely. What do you want me to talk about? And they go, You can talk about whatever you want to talk about…curiosity. And so I'd already done all I had prepared myself for something to come. And so I developed the information in terms of what happens to your brain when you're curious. You know, I want people to understand that this is a neuroscience perspective on that. Demonstrating that curiosity is good for the brain. And then I shared about the difference between children and adults. These are studies: why children ask questions and why adults don't ask questions. And then I said to him: And here's what the benefit of it is. And then I taught them some practical things that they can do to be curious. And that was that. I thought, Okay, this will probably never happen again. And then it snowballed. And I think I spoke to over 10,000 people at Humana and then started speaking externally. And I thought, Wow, people are curious. They want to learn about curiosity. But more importantly, they want to be curious. And the thing that I found, Andi, is that curiosity is contagious. Andi Simon: Yes. Debra Clary: So if you are around curious people, you're going to be curious. Andi Simon: Debra, let's talk some more. This is so much fun because what happens if you have this contagion called curiosity? Are good things happening? Debra Clary: Absolutely. And, you know, being a scientist, I wanted to know how to be able to measure it. What are the levels of curiosity? So I partnered with a group out of MIT to say, I want a valid assessment that can demonstrate the level of curiosity at an individual level and a curiosity in an org. level, because if we have data, then we can make change.  So I mean, the data suggests that when you're curious,  people begin to feel seen, valued and heard. And isn't that a lovely thing if people feel that. What does that do for engagement? What does it do for problem solving? What does it do for innovation? Well, all of that increases. People want to work in a curious environment. They want to work for a leader that is open to your ideas, that your ideas matter. That's what employees want. That's what associates want. And so not only now can we talk about it from other studies and why it's important, and here are the benefits from it. We can actually measure your current state of curiosity. And then we help you to figure out what are areas that you can get better in to help you drive this within your organization. Andi Simon: It's such an interesting word because by and large, I doubt there's an MBA program with a course on curiosity, is there? I'm not aware of it. So it isn't as if we are thinking about this in the training that we're giving aspiring next generation business people. And I doubt when they walk into HR, people ask them, Are you a curious person? They'll ask about their skills and how they like to get along. And are they collaborative, perhaps. And are they, you know, take charge and directing? But curiosity opens up a very different view of the world. It sort of challenges the imposter syndrome. It's okay not to know, and it's okay that we can figure out what is important by simply figuring out what's important. And that becomes very important. I often work with organizations going through fast change, either machine learning or changes to their clients or robots or hybrids. Humans hate change, their brains fight it. The amygdala says, Go away. You know I'm going to fear you, I fear you. I don't want any of this cortisol flying around in your brain saying, Get away. This is bad news stuff. And you're saying, Can turn this all into beautiful oxytocin, where I'm having such fun learning new stuff and growing, which is really important. Am I right? Debra Clary: Yeah. It's like, bring on the dopamine. You know that you get that when you feel like somebody cares about you because they're asking questions and they're suspending judgment. You know, that dopamine is hitting.  Andi Simon: And bring on the dopamine. Love it. Debra Clary: I've never said it like that before, but that's what occurs to me. So what we also know from a neuroscience perspective is, the brain is a machine and it is designed to keep you safe. And so there's this thing called fast pass matching, meaning that when something comes up, your brain wants to go to a solution as quick as possible because our ancestors were in danger. So you need to take action. And what we today have to guard against is not fast past matching. If it sounds like it goes really quick, I have someone step back and say, Wait, maybe there's another choice, maybe there's another option. Going back to your question around an interview: you don't ask people if they're curious. However, you could ask them questions like, What is the last thing you learned? What is something that you're working on that you don't know right now? And you can begin to get an idea if that's something that they're interested in learning. You can also figure out what is their tenacity to stay with the project because, you know, things don't go smoothly all the time, especially when you're being really innovative.  And what is your ability to be determined and to stay with it? That's also something that you can measure. Andi Simon: Now, I bet you that it doesn't matter if you're an engineer who likes to put things into boxes, or you're a marketing person who likes to be creative. That curiosity can be for both of them. It doesn't matter much what the nature of your mind is. If you open it up to see new things and unexpected things, you can expand the way an engineer can see the data boxes and creativity is already looking there. And sometimes my creatives have trouble settling down on something. They see too many things, too many ideas. Entrepreneurs have a terrible way of having more ideas than they have the possibility of actually implementing. But that's okay. And part of the learning process. One entrepreneur said, I needed a Type A to organize me, or if not, I never got any ideas done. And so you need to know yourself, but you also need to let the ideas flow so that you can grow. And this is a growth strategy.  Debra Clary: Absolutely. I was recently working with a client who is an engineer, and I was asking a series of questions, and I could tell he was getting really frustrated because he wanted the pattern. He wanted to get to the solution. And when I realized that, I had to share with him: We are going to get to an answer and we are going to make a decision. But this very period of time right now is about exploring what's possible so we get to the best solution. But when we decide on that, it is go and we're going to get it done. And it was just like this huge relief on his face. And my point is, is that you have to kind of understand who you're working with as you're pacing and leading them. I mean, ultimately, you want people to be able to take action. You want them to feel good about the solution. And of course, that translates into two business outcomes. Andi Simon: Yes, I know, but for humans, ambiguity is the most dangerous place to be. You can be black or white, but they don't like gray. It can be red or blue, but not purple. And when we are adverse to the ambiguity, we miss all the opportunities because they usually pop up betwixt and between, don't they? Debra Clary: And when that occurs to me, which has been happening a lot lately as I'm starting up this company, I'll remind myself: You don't know the answer. But Deb, you're going to figure it out and you're going to have people that are going to help you figure it out. And that just takes my heart rate all the way down and says, well, that's right, this is a mess. And we're going to get to it. Andi Simon: Yes. And there it is. Kay Unger from Kay Unger Fashion Designs, who's done wonderful creative things in the design and fashion industry for many years, said something to me the other day that she sees things in pictures, and of course the brain actually sees everything in pictures. And so what she finds is that once she has a problem to solve, she puts all the pictures out and watches how they come together, almost like solving a puzzle. And I share that metaphor for you and the audience, because it's a very interesting way to realize that is, in fact, how the brain likes to work. It likes pictures, it likes to see and visualize. And I actually gave my leadership academy pads of paper and colored pencils and said, Now you're going to draw yourself a year from now so you can visualize where you're going, because if you can't see it, you're never going to get there. But if you can, even if it's not right, you'll begin to take the small, curious steps to see how to move along. And you can redraw the picture. But without one, not much can happen because you get stuff stalled. Debra Clary: Absolutely. I think that is so powerful. What Kate said around that our brains do think in pictures. And if you think about it, I was in France this year and I spent time in the caves where the artists were. It's just so extraordinary what these men and women did during the Ice Age and how they communicated was through these pictures and that has been passed down to each of us in terms of first pictures and then the spoken word and the written word came so, so much later. Andi Simon: Of course, but Gutenberg came much later. But that was 35,000 years ago. And they were pretty sophisticated because they brought their pigments from long distances away. And their sophistication in the pictures were amazing stories to be told and shared. But, you know, before that the cave paintings weren't and then all of a sudden they were. And I often wonder, how much was that we haven't really been able to find because we haven't found the artifacts with them and where they were located. But it's an interesting story, and we can't quite decide if the humans did it or the Neanderthals did it because they were sharing the same territories together. Debra Clary: Yes, absolutely. And you probably have seen this recent finding in, I think it was Germany. As an anthropologist, I mean, you and I are of the same minds. We come from a different way, but it's like getting curious enough to understand and go deeper and say, well, what about this? Well, this doesn't match. How could this particularly match? I mean, every day to me is fascinating. It's just when I keep my mind open, it's just fascinating. Andi Simon: You're having fun, aren't you? Debra Clary: I am having fun. Andi Simon: Good. Let's talk a little bit about if people want to learn more about you, where would the website be so that they could find you? Debra Clary: Yes. So it's DebraClary.com so just my name and they'll see the services and the consulting that I offer. But they also have a free curiosity assessment. So they click on that link. They're going to get their score on their current level of curiosity. Andi Simon: Oh let's say that again. So if you're curious about your curiosity go to DebraClary.com and download the survey there. And it's a short version. It's not the long one she might give you in your organization, but enough to give you an assessment of your curiosity. And I bet you're curious about your curiosity. Once you find it then the question is, what do I do with it? And then you can get back to DebraClary.com. And she would be delighted to talk to you about how you take and convert curiosity into opportunity, because that's what it's really opening for you. So on that note, I'm going to wrap us up for today because I've had such a good time. Last note, one or two thoughts, Debra, that you want to make sure they don't forget. Debra Clary: That curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. Andi Simon: Good. That is wonderful. So for those of you who came, whether you're watching or you're listening, it's always a pleasure. Send along those who you would like me to interview on our podcast. We have over 380 done and there are many more in the queue coming, and they're all really, like Debra Clary, extraordinarily helpful to help you get off the brink. And if you're on the brink, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways, which is what we're going to do. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, is available at Barnes and Noble and Amazon. But I will tell you, I'm learning that a book has an energy, a force, and it's when the reader opens that book. Debra and I did a program at Louisville Leadership, and we had a ball with 50 women who couldn't get enough wisdom out of our wisdoms and who wanted to share wisdoms. That was really cool, wasn't it? Debra Clary: Yes. Andi Simon: So on that note, my friends, let us know how you are doing. Send us emails at info@AndiSimon.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Have a wonderful day. Goodbye and thank you so much Deb. It was a pleasure and I'm sure everyone else has enjoyed it as much as I have. Debra Clary: Thank you Andi.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how when you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen I first interviewed Dr. Srikumar Rao in July 2023 and was so deeply inspired by the wisdoms he shared with us that I wanted to have him back so he could teach us more. And he does. The title of his new book is Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots, in which he offers solid tools we can use to let go of the mental chatter that gets in the way of seeing what's possible. The universe is benevolent, Dr. Rao says, it's your friend, and when we understand this, that's when we can change our story and thus, the direction of our lives. Are you ready to make a change, today? Watch and listen to our conversation here Some of Dr. Rao's wisdoms which you can apply to your own life The most important thing is not what you're doing but who you are being as you do it. Too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing. Allow life to unfold. And as you do, you find that miracles happen, and they happen on a regular basis. We never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. When you change your thinking from the universe is indifferent to the universe is friendly, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation. Open yourself up to possibilities. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it's your friend. And the more you do this, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it. Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? Well, the universe doesn't give you what you want, but gives you exactly what you need for your learning and growth. We all have mental chatter. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter, the problem is you identify with your mental chatter. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You're the observer of the mental chatter. Then it loses its ability to take you to places you don't want to go. To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute. Watch his TED Talk here and email him at srikumar.rao@theraoinstitute.com. More inspiration for finding joy and purpsoe on your life journey: Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company's Culture! Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, this podcast is designed to help you get off the brink. The one thing we don't want you to do is get stuck or stalled. But you can begin to understand how you can change. And that's what we like to help people and their organizations do. So today, I have a wonderful gentleman here, and Doctor Rao did a podcast with us earlier, last July in fact, that was just a hit, but he's got a new book coming out. Actually, it's out and I have been reading it and you will love it. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Srikumar Rao. He is a creator of creativity and personal mastery. His bio doesn't fit a bio. It's a wonderful story about a life well-lived. He's a speaker, a former business school professor and head of The Rao Institute, and I urge you to take a look at that online because it's full of rich opportunities for you to begin to see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words, but they mimic the words he uses. He is an executive coach to senior business executives, and he helps them find deeper meaning and engagement in their work. He also talks about the fact that work isn't work. And I love the idea because I love to work, and people say, when are you going to retire? I say, I'm never going to retire. Why is work bad? Because we define it as something that is not fun, but work isn't work. Work is something that gives us all kinds of things, purpose, meaning, joy. What could it do for you? My last thought today is to make sure that you understand Dr. Rao has programs and coaching that you can enjoy because they are joyful to help you begin to become the kind of person that you'd like to be. I'm going to call you Srikumar. Srikumar Rao: Works just fine.  Andi Simon: Thank you for joining me again. It's really a pleasure. Srikumar Rao: It's my pleasure, Andi. I had such a blast the last time you interviewed me that I was positively looking forward to this session. Andi Simon: For our audience, watch out, here comes some really wonderful, wonderful stuff. Give the audience some context, though. Who are you? A man of your journey and why was this book? The book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. Now when you buy an ebook, that's how I can show you the book. And I did buy a hard copy, but it isn't a hard copy. And as I'm reading it, I think you're going to find it wonderful. What is the context for this book and who are you? Why should they listen?  Srikumar Rao: Who am I? As you mentioned, I'm an executive coach, and I have a very well defined niche. I work with successful people, mostly entrepreneurs, who have already done very well for themselves. But they're driven. They want to have an outsized impact on the world. But at the same time, they have an explicitly spiritual bent that they would like to infuse into every area of their life. They know that life is about more than getting the biggest toys, or the most expensive toys. And there's something deeper, and they want to bring that into all parts of their life. So that's the sandbox in which I play, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm the only person who's playing in that particular sandbox. I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any others. Andi Simon: Well, clearly it's not a red ocean of lots of competition pushing you away, is it? Srikumar Rao: No there isn't. By the time people come to me, they've already done their homework. They've listened to my TED Talk. They watched many of my videos on YouTube, and they know they want to work with me. Andi Simon: And when they do the kind of work you like to do with them, can you give us some ideas? Srikumar Rao: We have conversations. We have deep conversations, and I have an unusual take on coaching. So let me explain that. In my view, the only thing you ever do in life, Andi, is you work on yourself. A benevolent universe has given you many tools. Your husband is a tool. Your daughters and granddaughters are tools. The business you run, the clients you have, they're all tools. You want to do the very best you can for your clients. You want them to feel: Gee, hiring Andi was the best thing that I ever did. But in the process of doing that, what you're really doing is you're working on yourself. You want to be a great wife. You want to be a great mother. In the process of doing that, what you really do is you work on yourself. The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself. Now the universe has given you wonderful tools and running a business is a Swiss army knife of tools. You use that skillfully, but you never lose sight of the fact that in using these tools skillfully, what you're really doing is you're working on yourself. Does that make sense to you, Andi? Andi Simon: Yes. Maybe because it requires you to be reflective of what you're doing, how you're doing it, and what the impact or the outcome is.  Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. Because the most important thing, Andi, is not what you're doing. but who you're being as you do it. And too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing. Andi Simon: I'll stay on that for a moment. I don't want to lose track of why this new book and how it fits. But as I hear you, you work with successful people who may or may not realize how they have become who they are. They may not be happy with where they are, but they don't seem to have a toolkit to begin to take them to the next place. And that is a big theme that I'm finding that people find themselves either in retirement or transition or job change or career growth, and it's being done to them instead of them owning their life and who they are, something that you have found as well. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely, yes. Because too many people, Andi, go around trying to make life happen. Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing. Srikumar Rao: I love life to unroll, unfold. And as you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen and they happen on a regular basis. Andi Simon: Well, you and I were talking about serendipity, but miracles are a different word. Similar? Your early conversation about a path through life, I think, is so valuable to think about for our audience, who's either watching you or listening that the steps aren't necessarily, you can't necessarily see them, but you can begin to live them. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. You know, let me share something with you, Andi. If you ask people: Are you happy? Most of them will say, Yes, I'm happy. Remember, these are successful people already, but we define happiness too narrowly. We define happiness as there's nothing really bothering me right now, and there are actually some things that I like, or I'm looking forward to watching a new Netflix series or having dinner with a friend or something like that. That's a very low part. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, do you feel radiantly alive? Do you feel so full of gratitude that you feel as if you're bursting? Are you not walking, but joyously floating through the air, hitting ground every 100ft or so. Is that your experience of life? And if that's not your experience of life, why not? Because that is your nature. So how do you reclaim the joy you felt as a child, when you could spend an hour watching a dog chase its tail? Why have you lost that? And how can you bring it back to your life today? That's what my coaching is about. And the wonderful thing is that when you're in that space, your business and whatever else you know just floats effortlessly and you accomplish more than you could ever have dreamed possible. It just happens because you're not trying to force things. You're allowing the universe to unfold. Andi Simon: Let's dig deeper into that. Marissa Peer is really a renowned hypnotherapist who often talks about the fact that we live the story in our mind. And our mind also loves to go to pleasure, not pain. Even if the pain causes pleasure, like narcotics might. And the habits take over and you don't even know that you're habit driven. You think you have free will. And so this complicated human where we want to take and know our own selves and take ownership of it, determine our careers, determine our life, give it more intentionality, a purpose, isn't that easy. And so the question becomes, how do you change the story, modify the habits, begin to not simply just wish, but to begin to actually feel that gratitude, that happiness. I don't want to add my ideas, I want to hear yours because our listeners do. But there's a way of taking where you are. You may have your house, you may have your car, you may have your club. You may think you're happy, but take it to a whole next level where you are. Every day is a gift, and you wake up happy to be there. Srikumar Rao: And the short answer to that, Andi, is, you have to work at it. Because we have been programmed, we have been conditioned, and we are so programmed and conditioned that we don't even recognize that we have been programmed and conditioned. It's true. And what we have is, we've got a lot of extraneous thoughts going on. I call it mental chatter, and mental chatter is always with you. It's so much a part of your life that you don't even recognize you have it. You know, the kind of thing that goes: Oh, drat my secretary screwed up again, and should I keep her or should I fire her? And I'm sick and tired of having to go through these small snafus that keep coming up, which she should have handled. All of that is mental chatter. We live our life defined by our mental chatter, and we never recognize that we're living a life which is defined by our mental chatter and not by what is really happening internally to us. But one of the first things that I do with my client is, I get them to understand that this mental chatter, which you ignore, is actually creating the life that you live in. So the first step is to be aware that there is this stuff that is happening. The first step is to recognize that this is happening and this is really running your life. And when you do that and you become aware of your mental chatter as opposed to being carried away by your mental chatter, you start to say, hey, you know, the world isn't what I thought it was. It's something that's different. Yeah, that is the starting point. Andi Simon: With that in mind, I don't like to tease my audience, give us something a little bit more illustrative, concrete to take from it. Stop the mental chatter because when you stop it, then you're going to fill yourself with an opportunity. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. Let me share something which I'm sure some of your clients and many of the people listening to this podcast can relate with. I was teaching in London Business School and I had a student who was an investment banker and a very successful investment banker. There were many problems in his marriage. Because he was an investment banker, he was working long hours. And because he worked long hours, he missed many family occasions, dinners. You know, his son's first piano recital and stuff like that. And his wife would get very upset at him. “You said you'd be back and you weren't.” And she accused him of not caring. From his perspective, the very fact that he was working long hours at a job that he didn't particularly like was evidence of his caring. And obviously they were able to maintain the lifestyle that they did because of the income he pulled in from his job. So the very fact that he was working long hours was, in his mind, an expression of caring. When she laced into him, he would get defensive, they'd have massive fights. And yet it was just a very uncomfortable, uncomfortable situation. And they were rapidly heading towards divorce. And then in my course, somebody suggested to him that, look, when your wife is lashing it to you for not caring, what she's really saying is, honey, I miss you. And I wish that I was with you or you were with me. Totally not convinced but he agreed to try it. And the next time he was late and his wife started getting mad at him and accusing him of not caring, instead of reacting the way he normally did, he said, Honey, it must have been really tough on you. I'm so sorry. Which is so different from what he usually said that she was taken aback. And what would have been an entire evening quarrel petered out in 30 minutes. And as he continued doing that, and each time that she got angry at him or started to get sarcastic, he would simply say, I love you. And I realize it's very tough on you, I will try to make it up. And gradually their bitter quarrels faded away. They didn't entirely resolve the situation, but it became something to be handled as opposed to: this is going to lead to the end of our marriage. I was about to say that's the way in which we're always telling stories to ourselves. And we don't recognize that we're telling stories to ourselves. We believe this is the reality. Andi Simon: Let's stay there. I'm making some notes. In the stories, we're always a hero. Stories that we're telling ourselves, we're always the hero. Srikumar Rao: Yes. Andi Simon: Right. And so the story you just shared is a beautiful one. Where he was right. She was wrong. She was right. He was wrong until they stopped being heroes to themselves. But literally, he just became, in the words he said to her, caring about how she was. It deflated all of the competition, the animosity. What a beautiful story to share and think about. Yeah, because it's not complicated. It's just, you know, change the story and change your life. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. What we don't recognize is that we never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. And most of us never understand that this is what is happening, that it isn't reality. It's the story we have told ourselves and which we believe without ever recognizing that it is a story, and we have the opportunity to change the narrative. And what I'm very good at, is helping people understand that and to change the narrative. Andi Simon: That leads very nicely, though, into your new book. Tell us about the timing, the pacing. What was a catalytic moment for another book. Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots has a purpose, and there's something at the end of it for you to use to self-assess. But the context is important here because as the listener thinks about their story that's guiding their life either toward happiness or toward less than, it's an opportunity to begin to rethink who am I and the story I'm living and what am I thinking. Please, what was the motivation for this book and tell us about it. Srikumar Rao: A book, Andi, and you can understand this, being a multiple times author yourself, is like a baby. You know, it comes to a point at which it has to be born. Yes, that's what happened with this. I wanted to, as you know, I'm an executive coach and people ask me questions. And I noticed that there was a great deal of similarity in the questions. And this cuts across countries, cuts across culture, cuts across ethnic and other backgrounds. They're human problems, not problems related to any particular occupation, country, or religious or ethnic background. So I figured that if I put this down, it would be a help to people to understand that. And some of them, of course, might want to go deeper. And if so, they reach out to me and we discuss what I can do for them. But the idea is to give them solid tools, and the heart of it is to understand that the world we're living in is not a real world. It's a construct. We build that construct with our mental chatter and our mental models. Now, this is hugely liberating because if the world we're living in is not real and you don't like it, then you can deconstruct the parts of it you don't like and build it again.  But what do you do if the world you live in is real, and you don't like it, you're screwed. But if it's not real, you can change it. So how do you go about doing that? That's what my coaching is all about. And some of the tools that I use are given in that book Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. And I've tried to illustrate it by means of stories, because I find that stories bring it home very, very powerfully. This is a story I shared with you about the investment banker and his wife. And, you know, they were able to make almost a U-turn. Andi Simon: Now stay on that. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the chapters in there but we often say that we live an illusion. The story creates an illusion that guides our day but isn't real. And the only truth is there's no truth. It's very hard for people not to say, this isn't real. Well, sort of, but the pen is only real enough when you write with it, and something happens but it's hard to understand that some of them, the stories that you have in there, though, are really very important for thinking about who am I and what am I doing and why am I doing this. Can you share a few of them? I'll say the short chapters, but there are a couple of major points. Srikumar Rao: Here's one. Now, how do you think about the universe? Einstein said that the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now we respect Einstein because he was a great scientist, but he was also a philosopher who had a very intimate understanding of how the universe worked. And Einstein said, the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now, there are some people who believe that the universe is distinctly unfriendly, and the sole purpose of the universe is to frustrate. The vast, overwhelming majority of us believe the universe is neither friendly nor unfriendly. It's indifferent. The universe doesn't know you exist and couldn't care less. So here you are going around doing your thing. There's a universe going around doing its thing. Sometimes it seems to work with you, sometimes it seems to work against you. But essentially it's a random process. What if that wasn't true? What if the universe was aware of your existence and the universe was well-disposed towards you? Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? You want to go on vacation and the universe gives you pandemics and lockdowns. Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? Well, the universe didn't give you what you wanted, but gave you exactly what you needed for your learning and growth. Like you're a small child and you want a tub of ice cream, and the universe gives you fruits and vegetables, and you don't want fruits and vegetables, you want a tub of ice cream. But the universe through your parents gives you fruits and vegetables. It isn't until you reach a much higher level of maturity that you can say, thank God I got fruits and vegetables rather than a tub of ice cream. What if the universe was exactly like that? That is a mental model, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's a superior mental model. And regardless of whether the universe was friendly or not, if you believed the universe was friendly, your experience of life would be a whole lot better.  How do you adopt this mental model? And the idea is recognize that it's a superior mental model and look for signs that this is operating in your life. And I advocate people having a notebook where they write down the signs that the universe is friendly, and when you do that, you'll see them everywhere. I'll give you an example. This happened to me yesterday. So I had a plumbing issue in one of my toilets, and I called the plumber and he came and fixed it. And after he did that, he had come to my house earlier, and he was missing a drill, and he thought he might have left it downstairs. So I went to the basement to check, and he noticed that there was a pinhole leak in one of my pipes, and discovered it purely by accident. But he looked at that and pointed to my attention and said, I'm here and I'll fix it. It could have been quite major, and he fixed it. Completely serendipitous. That's a miracle. It's a sign the universe is friendly. Most of the time when something like that happens, we dismiss it as a coincidence. So coincidence is a miracle killer. But when you start noting the ways in which the universe seems to be working with you and has your back, you notice so many of them that you'll reach an internal tipping point. And in that tipping point, you will tip over from “the universe is indifferent” to “the universe is friendly.” And when you do that, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation. Andi Simon: And I think that the timing of your conversation today is so interesting because I too, I believe in, in those kinds of chance moments which aren't clearly by chance. And there was nothing that made him go down there, except perhaps he left his drill down there and nothing that said, please take a look at a pinhole in the pipe or anything for you. I started a conversation today talking about where we're going and the kinds of things we're in. But, it is an interesting lesson for our listeners, a wisdom to begin to open up your mind to possibilities. Srikumar Rao: That is the key point. You've hit the nail right on the head. Open yourself up to possibilities. Andi Simon: Because that's the only way you're going to grow. As we know that the brain hates change, unfamiliarly. It fights everything that comes in and threatens what's current. You have to overcome that cortisol that's produced until it, nope, I want some oxytocin, because I think this is the greatest idea that I could begin to think about. But the only one who can manage that is you. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. And when you start living in a friendly universe, then you say something happens to you and you say, okay, you know, there's a lesson in there for me. And what is the lesson and how soon can I learn it? And you'll invariably find that the unfortunate situation resolves itself. Andi Simon: So when you're up at two in the morning thinking about something that's really bugging you, let it go. Meditate, quiet the mind.  So I'm watching our time and it's almost ready to wrap up, but I want to talk about one thing more and that is meditation, mindfulness, managing your mind. Because unless you understand there are things you can do, in fact, I'm not going to say take charge of your mind, but quiet it, you're going to think, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to let go of those negatives to absorb the positive. Any things that you particularly like to do? I've learned mindfulness myself, but please. Srikumar Rao: What happens? Andi we have this mental chatter going on, and you can't stop it. It's pointless saying, you know something is happening, don't worry about it. If you could not worry about it, you'd not worry about it. But you're incapable of not worrying about it. That's okay. You cannot stop worrying about it, but you can observe and be aware of the fact that you're worrying about it. So one of the cornerstone exercises of mine is, look, you have this mental chatter that's going on. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter. The problem is you identify with your mental chatter. And when you identify with the mental chatter, it can grab you by the neck and take you to all kinds of dark places. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You're the observer of the mental chatter. The velocity and the power of that chatter, it diminishes and it loses the ability to take you to places you don't want to go. It's very easy to describe and it's very easy to start off on that. It's very difficult to keep it there because you start observing your mental chatter and in seconds you've lost it and you become your mental chatter. When that happens, go back to being the observer. This is one of the cornerstone exercises of my programs and my coaching. But as you become better and better at that, you can be an observer for a longer and longer period, and you'll find that the things that used to bother you no longer bother you because you let them go. Andi Simon: And that letting go is a lot like what you have to do to grow up. Yeah. Let it go. And at any age, you can be, you know, still a child, let it go to get to the next stage in your own personal growth. I've enjoyed this so much. I do want to say one thing for our listeners and our viewers, that when you're working, when you're in an organization that may have gotten toxic or may seem to be unpleasant to get to work every day, or your folks are beginning to struggle, time to sit down with them and think about that mental chatter that's going on. It may come from outside of the workplace or inside. Or maybe somebody said something to someone. Think about the investment banker and the different ways he can deal with his wife, one of which is caring about the fact she's been alone, or the other is angry that she cares so much about herself that she's not thinking about him and the work he's doing. Same situation, two different stories. But, if you have an organization that seems to be fragile and it's not a bad methodology to begin to sit down and listen to the conversation, observe, be an anthropologist, hang out, listen to the conversations at lunchtime. Begin to pull out of the stories people are telling that mental chatter that's creating noise instead of joy. Because so much joy is there waiting to happen. The universe is joyful. Let it happen. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it's your friend. And the more you recognize it as your friend, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend. Andi Simon: And then every day, coming to work isn't work. It's about growing and learning and teaching and gratitude and just having joy. Srikumar Rao: Exactly, exactly, exactly right, Andi. Andi Simon: Last thoughts? Dr. Srikumar Rao has been with us today, talking about his new book, Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. But it's about you and about how you can turn work into growth. Begin to think about that, that chatter in your mind as something to let go. Some last thoughts. Srikumar Rao: Your nature is happiness. You're not this shell of skin and bones and blood that you think you are, who you really are is pure awareness. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it. Andi Simon: This has been a pleasure. I could keep talking. I've enjoyed our conversation and I know our listeners and viewers will as well. Let me wrap up. It's such fun to share people like Dr. Rao with you because it takes us to the next stage in our own growth. And I don't care where you are, that noise in your brain is going to get in the way of seeing what's possible. And in fact, the little challenge here or a little opportunity there if you let it turn into an opportunity. Next thing you know, you're rising with it. And he's smiling and so am I. So thank you for coming today. Srikumar Rao: It's been my pleasure. And I look forward to a wonderful association. And I don't know which way it's going to go, but I know it's going to go exactly the way it's supposed to. Thank you. Andi Simon: Thank you. But the joyful universe is going to take us on its own way, and we're going to have some fun. The timing couldn't be better. Now, for those of you who come, remember, I love to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I can't thank you enough for coming. Refer to us anybody you'd like to hear on our podcast. We are getting booked up for the rest of the year and so sooner is better. My new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is doing extremely well. It's full of wisdoms and people are learning. We often say, turn a page and change your life. Who knew? The book has an energy and a force well beyond being a book. There's more. You're smiling. The books aren't books, are they? Srikumar Rao: Books are in books. Books have a life force in them, and they reach out and grab the persons who are right for them. I could not agree with you more. Andi Simon: Couldn't say it better than you have. So I'm going to say goodbye. Let's say have a great day. Please turn your observations into innovations. Don't wait around. The world is waiting for your new ideas. Bye bye now. Srikumar Rao: Let's go further than that, Andi. Have a wonderful rest of your life. Andi Simon: I love it. Everyone's cup should be overflowing like yours and mine. Thank you.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

The more diverse your organization, the more successful it will be Today I bring to you a most fascinating and consequential woman leader, Melissa Andrieux. Born and bred in Queens, New York, Melissa became a prosecutor, then Queens District Attorney, then civil litigator. She is now Chief Diversity Officer at the law firm Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. She is also Chief Client Relations Officer, and is tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm by establishing a culture of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. What's more, she helps other firms bring DEI&B into their own cultures. Melissa is not only a trailblazer but a beacon for others to emulate. Do enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our podcast It's never too late. Don't let people tell you that you're only good at one thing. Just because you're good at it doesn't mean you should keep doing it.  Yes you should have a plan, but don't get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come.  You need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they're not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they're going to go elsewhere. Diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status. People often think that it's just racial or gender, but that's not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It's what makes us different and unique. Equity at its basic level is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it's not about taking from one group to give to another group. It's about making adjustments to imbalances. It's really about fairness.  Inclusion is related to belonging. Inclusion is, you're being invited to the party to play, you're being given a seat at the table, you're being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard. If we do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own groups, their own culture, then we're never going to get to where we need to be. It's all about knowledge, education and understanding. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader's buy-in. You can connect with Melissa by LinkedIn or email: mandrieux@dorflaw.com. More stories of women making DEI a reality, not just an idea Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let's Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? Andie Kramer—Can “Beyond Bias” Take Your Organization To Great Heights? Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace. Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I'm Andi Simon and as you know, as my frequent followers who come to watch our podcast, I'm here to be the guide and the host to take you off the brink. Our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And in order to do that, you have to listen to people who have changed. Change is painful. Your brain hates me. But don't run away. Today we're going to have a great, great time. I have with us today Melissa Andrieux who's an attorney whom I met at a wonderful party. And she has really given me some perspective on something that I think is important for us to share. She's smiling at me. Here's a little bit about her background and then she's going to tell you about her own journey. Melissa is an experienced litigator. She leveraged her background in law to lead Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, the law firm, in their initiatives as chief diversity officer. She's also the firm's chief client relations officer, and she's tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm. But what's really important is, she's gone from being a litigator to being an expert in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging professional space. So she's helping the firm help other firms begin. And this is my world: see, feel and think in new ways so they can begin to understand why having a lot of diversity of all kinds, including cognitive diversity and listening to each other is important, and understand how to include people in things that you might have not thought they were part of. Melissa, thank you for joining me today. Melissa Andrieux: Well, thank you for having me, Andi. It's a real pleasure to be on your show. Andi Simon: Well, it was a real pleasure to meet you when we did the book launch at Josie's. I asked people if they wanted to share their wisdoms and Melissa had a story she wanted to tell. She's going to tell it again today. But first, who is Melissa? Tell us about your journey, please. Melissa Andrieux: Well, when you called me up to tell my story, I was a little shocked. I hadn't planned on being called upon. But I love sharing my story. I was born and bred in Queens. I am a lawyer, as you said. And I came to that profession kind of, I didn't have mentors in my life who were lawyers or judges. I learned by watching TV what was interesting. That's why I chose my profession and what was on TV? You're a prosecutor. You are a criminal defense lawyer. So I chose the prosecution route. I always wanted to be a Queens District Attorney, and I became one. I loved that job. I represented the people of the State of New York, the county of Queens, and as most people in government, we move on into civil practice. And then I moved into civil litigation. I did that for a very long time. You may find that shocking, but I did it for 12 years at a firm and then I moved to Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, which was then Dorf Nelson. Now it's Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. And I did that for a while, and it's kind of sad looking back on it, but I did it for such a long time when I didn't really enjoy it, but I didn't know what else was out there. I had no clue what to do with this law degree. So I just kept on doing litigation, and it got to the point where I started speaking with people at the firm, and I was told that this opening for marketing and business development was available. And I said, well, I've never done either. I'm a litigator, I'm a lawyer. But then it got to the point where I was just candidly miserable. I didn't want to get out of bed, I didn't want to go to work. So I said, you know, let me try the position, and I'm not a failer. I don't like to fail. So I said, I'm going to put my heart and soul into it. And I started learning about the business side of law, which I had no idea that law was a business. I thought you just went to court, the depositions, blah blah blah, but I found it very interesting. I was meeting clients, I was meeting prospective clients, I was learning about the business. And then that developed into marketing, which opened a whole new world for me. And with the marketing, I was looking at other law firms, I was looking at businesses, and the DEI aspect clicked. I mean, as you can see, I'm a woman of color in the legal profession, which another story is really not as diverse as should be, but we'll leave that for another time. So I started looking internally at what we could do to make the law firm better, more inclusive, more attractive to candidates. We wanted to hire people. So what do you do? So I spoke with leadership. I had to get their buy-in or else this would never work. And the first thing that we did is, we started a Diversity and Inclusion Council. And I hand-picked the members, and we just had candid conversations about what was going on at the firm, what they wanted to see change, and I studied. It was not easy. I spoke with people in the DEI space. I found the experts, I read, and it got to the point where I was being called upon to do panels and advise people on their own DEI journeys. I mean, it wasn't a quick thing, unfortunately. It took a lot of hard work. I had a lot of mentors and sponsors in my corner. Luckily, I'm one of those individuals who actually found people who wanted to invest in me, and that's kind of how I ended up here. I know that a lot of people, and I've heard this, think that the law firm hand-picked the Black attorney to be the DEI officer, but I assure you that it's not the case. I wanted this role. I advocated for this role, and I believe that I'm doing a very good job with the role. It's not done. It's hard work. And we continue every day to do the important work. Andi Simon: Let's reflect for a moment, which is how I think our listeners or our viewers want to pick your brain, because there have been a number of articles that have come out about how companies, large and small, are de-emphasizing the work of DEI or the Department of DEI. I'm not quite sure, being an anthropologist, why you need a department of it and who they put there. But, it's a very important part of transforming the way we live together. And it's both inside and outside. It changes how people come to work, what they expect of each other, how we listen to each other. And here, give them some of your own, both learning and experiences, because while they didn't pick you, they were wise enough to select you and to open up a space to let you go. I'm curious about that first group that you pulled together and how you managed to get them thinking. So give us a little of how did Melissa do it and how others might as well. Melissa Andrieux: So the how-to is: I decided to leave leadership out of these council meetings because I felt that in order for me to get a true sense of how people were feeling, I couldn't have the partners in these meetings because then people would feel like they cannot be honest. And that was the first thing that we did. And then I took the feedback. I took the information, and I looked at our policies. I looked at the procedures, the internal information that the firm has. And then I went to leadership and I said, this is what we can do. Let's do X, Y, and Z. Let's look at our policies. Are they gender neutral? Do they apply to everyone across the board? And we started slowly but surely. And as I say to everybody, DEI is in the long run. You cannot expect to finish DEI in a week, a month or even a year. It's an ongoing process. So that's how I started my DEI initiatives at the firm. Andi Simon: You spoke about having mentors and sponsors. Clearly you had teammates because as you think about it, this requires people to stop and rethink their story. And the story of the firm they're in. Their livelihood is dependent upon it, but also their personal experiences and what's happening. So as they were working with you, were there some key issues? I can hear your policy changes, but policies don't do much if people don't do much. So what kinds of things were you beginning to implement? Melissa Andrieux: So candidly, of course, as with any new initiatives, there is a little bit of pushback. So we had to get the team members at the firm on board and explain to them why this was important, why the time was now. And, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. But people do understand why diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is important. I mean, the thing is, you want to attract talent. You want the firm to continue to grow. And the way that we do that is bringing diverse perspectives into the law firm, bringing different people into the law firm, because neurodiversity, everybody comes from a different place in their lives. Their thinking is not the same as, let's say, somebody who's been here forever. You want to bring in fresh blood. And so when they started to understand the business reason behind this, they started to really buy into what we were doing. And they embrace it and they welcome it at this point. Andi Simon: One of the women I met recently is a Vassar professor who had a bunch of faculty go to court about equal pay for equal jobs. And of course, being a former academic, I remember well how they hired men at different salaries than the women and they came in with less experience. And that's at a female college. Come on. So give us a little bit of a breakdown because there's diversity, equity, equal pay for equal work, equal position, equal opportunity, inclusion. And inclusion and belonging are a little bit different. Give us a little bit more detail. I think it would be helpful. Melissa Andrieux: Sure. So diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status is diversity. People often think that it's just racial or gender, but that's not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It's what makes us different and unique. Andi Simon: Somebody once said to me, we're all diverse. And I said, that's great. We're all unique. Go ahead.  Melissa Andrieux: And that's what makes the world a great place to live. Imagine living with everybody who's like you. I mean, I think that would be pretty boring. So that's diversity. Equity at its basic level, equity is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it's not about taking from one group to give to another group. It's about making adjustments to imbalances. It's really about fairness.  Inclusion is kind of related to belonging. But I look at them as two different concepts. So to me, inclusion is, you're being invited to the party to play, you're being given a seat at the table, you're being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard. Andi Simon: You mean you can say something in a meeting and people can hear you? Melissa Andrieux: Exactly, exactly. They listen to you. They might not buy what you say, but they give you the opportunity to be seen and to be heard. And to me, belonging is an individual's feeling that you feel that you are connected to the community that you belong to, that you can be yourself with the people that you're around you. Andi Simon: You find that you know humans. I'm an anthropologist. Humans are very tribal. Yes, they look at the world that they're moving into, such as a workplace. Do I belong here? And it is everything from the tangible: Am I dressed right? Do I look right? Will people look me in the eye and trust that I make good decisions? Plus all of the intangibles that are there that often I don't hear people talking about, which disturbs me because inclusion without belonging isn't cool. I did work for a university once and all the students at a conference we were holding sat at tables with others where they belonged, but none of them were diverse. And then they literally stood up and said to the administration, you think you've built diversity, but we are really in enclaves with our tribes. And yes, the whole place may have diversity, but we don't feel like we're diverse. We feel like we have a tribe to belong to, and that's comfortable for us. But it may be uncomfortable for you. It was a very profound conversation about what these words mean. Melissa Andrieux: It is. So I do some consulting, DEI consulting as part of my duties. And one of the things that I always start my programs with is defining what diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and accessibility mean. Because if we don't understand these core concepts, we're not going to understand anything. So I truly think that if people do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own, their own groups, their own culture, then we're never going to get to where we need to be. It's all about knowledge, education and understanding. Andi Simon: And an openness to want to know more about the other.  Melissa Andrieux: Seriously. Andi Simon: Ask questions and be happy when you can sit together at lunch and share. How's life? Humans are human and nobody likes to be the whistleblower or the soloist. They want an orchestra where they can all play their instruments, but play them together with a good conductor. How important is the conductor? The leader? Melissa Andrieux: Oh, wow. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader's buy-in. And I truly believe that. If so, Jon Dorf, Jonathan Nelson, and Mark Zauderer, they are the leaders of the firm, if they did not embrace the concepts of DEI, what I am doing at the firm would never succeed. It would just be some box that you're checking. You know, your documents. But because it's something that they truly believe in, it's in the fabric of the firm. Long before I got here, it just wasn't apparent until I got here, I suppose. If you don't have the leaders who have your back, we're going to fail. Andi Simon: Well, do they do intentional things in order to broaden their own comfort with a diverse workforce and with diverse clients? I mean, do they live the promise? Melissa Andrieux: Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that we do is: we started a scholarship at Pace University. It's called the Beth S. Nelson Memorial Scholarship, and we wanted it to go to a woman embarking on a second career in law. And it's in honor of Jonathan Nelson's mom, who was a teacher and then she went into law. So that is something that the firm does in order to show its commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. We want to bring up the next generation. We want to give these women who are embarking on these second careers the opportunity to get in the law and graduate on time, and that's one of the ways that we do it. Another way that we show our commitment, that the partners show their commitment, is: they embrace every single client, regardless if you're black, white, LGBTQ. You know you deserve equal treatment when you come into Dorf Nelson & Zauderer LLP and you need representation, never turned away. Andi Simon: I think that it's really a model for others to both hear about and to learn about. You also work with clients and how do you bring the purpose and mission out to them as a consultant or as an attorney or a little of both? Melissa Andrieux: I wear many hats, Andi, I gotta tell you. So, being that I am a lawyer and working at a law firm doing business development, that has helped me tremendously when I go out there and I network because I understand the language. I know what clients want from their attorneys and what they don't want. So I'm able to talk to them as they need to be spoken to. And I also do consulting, which kind of develops organically as well. I go out and I do these panels. I go to these networking events and people ask me what I do. Somebody said, Will you do consulting for us? And obviously I said yes, because I love to do that. I love to teach and help other organizations grow and start their DEI journeys with the foundations, and then we move on from there as their needs become apparent, as whatever they need. Andi Simon: So as you're looking out there, you're seeing some trends that are both interesting or disturbing to you. Melissa Andrieux: Some interesting trends are that a lot of the firms that have started their DEI, they're continuing it, which I'm so happy about, even post- the Supreme Court decision. They are doubling down on their DEI initiatives, which I'm so happy to see because we cannot go backwards. We absolutely cannot go backwards. It takes the courage of these leaders to say we are going to forge forward. We're not going to let anything stop us, because it's also good business. Having a diverse workforce is good business. I always say, if you want to attract more clients, you need to have your organization reflect those clients that are coming to you for help. And one of the disturbing trends is, people who are using the Supreme Court decision as an excuse to not continue their DEIB initiatives, or those that say, we've reached the endgame, we can stop now. Unfortunately, that is not how you look at the DEI. I wish that were the case where we no longer needed these initiatives, but unfortunately they must continue and we are not done. We are never done. So to those organizations that think that it's okay to stop, I caution you. Andi Simon: But, you know, it's an interesting philosophical question because it's a gig to them. It isn't fundamental. It isn't transformative. It is a way of thinking about people or business. It's something that seemed to be cool to do, like ESG [environmental, social and governance], you know, pay a little attention to the environment. We're social creatures. We live in a very complex society and don't shortchange yourself by letting others put you into some box. Take the initiative and see why it's so important. I mean, women who lead lead companies in very good ROI, their returns are there and the people stay and they become places one wants to work. And that's not inconsequential, is it? Melissa Andrieux: It's not. People gravitate to people who are like them. So I always use this as an example. I will attract a different type of client than, let's say, a John Dorf or a Jonathan Nelson. I will attract the women. I will attract the people of color. I mean, not to say that they won't, but we're just going about business development and recruitment differently. That's why you need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they're not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they're going to go elsewhere. So I think it's a really good practice to have so many different perspectives within your firm going out there representing your organization. Andi Simon: Often when I do workshops, I remind the CEOs in the group that 13 million companies are owned by women. And there's a tremendous amount of effort to get women, women of color or people with diverse backgrounds into the supply chain, right into businesses so they can be in the supply chain. They're looking for gender and gender fair. Johanna Zeilstra‘s company Gender Fair is trying to establish it as a standard, not as an afterthought, and this is sort of a very important time for us not to let us go backwards. And not make it hard. I mean, I don't think this is hard work. It's important work. But I am just thrilled that you're on this podcast because I think that many people aren't really aware of the challenge and the opportunities that are before them. Is it easy? No. Should you do it? Absolutely. And will it help you and your purpose, your meaning, your business, your happiness grow. Aha! Oh, God. Melissa, it should be easier. Tell the listener as we're just about ready to wrap up, give them 1 or 2 things that they should focus on. I always like Oprah's small wins. If you're going to get somewhere and don't try to move the battleship a little at a time, but know where you're going. And let's assume that what you want to build is a really exciting organization that embraces diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging intentionally and intelligently. And that's going to help your business grow. Now, if they're going to start and they can see that 1 or 2 things you think should be important for them to do in a small win style. Melissa Andrieux: So before I answer that question, Andi, you reminded me the firm, the law firm, is Gender Fair certified, and we're actually one of the first law firms to be gender fair certified. So that's another way that we show to the world that the partners are putting their money where their mouth is. So I wanted to put that out there before I forget.  Andi Simon: Little push for Gender Fair, because it's a great way for you to demonstrate that you care about the right things in the right way. So that's one of the 2 or 3 things you want them to small win by. But learn more. And we can certainly introduce you to Gender Fair and its leadership. That's terrific Melissa. Please, some other things. Melissa Andrieux: So from my personal journey, I want to share with your audience that it's never too late, as I know it's a little cliché, but for me, I always thought that I could never leave. I thought it was too late for me to unlearn being an attorney. Unlearn being a litigator. But then when I opened up my mind and decided finally that I was ready to make the move, I said, you're going to do it. You're going to be great at it. And it was a long process, but I did it. So one of my things, one of the things that I always say to myself and to the young attorneys or folks that I meet in the world, is that it's never too late. Don't ever be pigeonholed. Don't let people tell you that you're only good at one thing. And I had a lot of naysayers in my life, not to be a Debbie Downer, but a lot of people thought that I had lost it when I made the career change, and because I was so good at what I was doing. Well, just because you're good at it doesn't mean you should keep doing it. So never too late. Ever. Andi Simon: You know, it's so interesting. I met you at a book event for our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I've been doing podcasts with a number of the women who are in the book. There are 102 women, 500 wisdoms, and they all are sharing a good deal about their own life's journey. Now, Lorraine Hariton we did the other day and she said no, there was no straight line. I was dyslexic, and I managed to realize I was really good at math. And from there I got into computers early, and then I was in Silicon Valley, and then I went to raise money for Hillary and I said, um, no straight line, is there, no straight line, no straight line. And in some ways, that's the exciting part about being a smart person, I'll say a smart woman, but a smart person, right?, where you can see the opportunities. One of the wisdoms I love there is: sure you should have a plan, but don't get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come.  I'm a big serendipity person, so it's just listen. And here Melissa stood up at an event and said something and I introduced her and I said, please come and speak on our podcast. And I'm just thrilled that you were here today. If people want to reach you and talk to you more, put you on a panel or help you help them, where's the best place? We will have it on the blog, of course, but sometimes they hear you and it sticks. Where should they reach you? Melissa Andrieux: Well, I'm at Dorf, Nelson and Zauderer. My email is mandrieux@dorflaw.com and the website is DorfLaw.com. You'll find me there. Andi Simon: Good. This has been a great, great conversation. Every time I do these, I learn more and more about wonderful women who are really transforming our society and themselves. You, the company you work for, the people you work with, and I'm happy too. So let me wrap up for those of you who come and send me your emails and push out all of our podcasts. Last I looked, we're in the top 5% of global podcasts, and in some places like South Africa, we're really high. And it's sort of like, really? So you never know where you are. So the message today is: take your heart and follow it a bit. You never know what's in it for you. My books, of course, are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. Women Mean Business is a fascinating book. I'll turn around and I will bring it over here because as you look at a book, you begin to realize, it's my third book, and the other two were all Amazon best sellers and award winners, but each book has a different insight. And so as you open it, I mean, I love Kay Koplovitz, not by chance, I opened it by chance. They teach you something, and I often say that a book has a fingerprint, and the fingerprint gives it a uniqueness, but its power is inside. And so as the book is opened at all of our events, and if you'd like an event, please let me know. What happens is something magical. Kay Koplovitz said at one event, think fast and act fast. And she said: if I had time to analyze all the things I had to make decisions about, I'd never make a decision. And I said to myself, you know, as an entrepreneur, I thought fast and acted fast and that's how we learn from others. We get inspired by them. And it does spark our success with new ideas that we know aren't so crazy. It's fun. So thank you again for coming. It's been a pleasure. And we'll see you next week as we post all of our great podcasts. Enjoy the journey. Thanks, Melissa. I'll say goodbye now. Melissa Andrieux: Thank you, Andi, for having me. Andi Simon: It's a pleasure.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)