Podcasts about hold me tight seven conversations

We're all marked souls, living on borrowed time. Let's not waste what time we have left. Memento Mori.

Dr Sue Johnson is the developer of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and a pioneer in adult attachment and couples therapy. With over 30 years of peer reviewed clinical research demonstrating its effectiveness, Dr Johnson has received several awards for her contribution to the development of EFT, including the Order of Canada and the Family Psychologist of the Year from the American Psychological Association. She is the best selling author of several books, including “Hold Me Tight”, which has sold over one million copies worldwide and helped countless couples improve their relationships. You can learn more about Dr Johnson's pioneering work by visiting: https://drsuejohnson.com and EFT training at https://iceeft.com. --- Dr. Sue Johnson is a leading innovator in the fields of couple therapy and adult attachment. She is the primary developer of Emotionally Focused Couples and Family Therapy (EFT), which has demonstrated its effectiveness in over 30 years of peer-reviewed clinical research. Sue's received numerous awards acknowledging her development of EFT, including the APA's “Family Psychologist of the Year” in 2016 and the Order of Canada in 2017. Her best-selling 2008 book Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love has taught countless couples how to enhance and repair their love relationships. It remains one of the best-selling relationship help books on the market today. It has since been adapted into a workshop format. Sue's 2014 book, Love Sense: The Revolutionary New Science in Romantic Relationships, outlines the latest understanding of why and how we love, based on scientific evidence and cutting-edge research. You can learn more about Dr Johnson's pioneering work by visiting: https://drsuejohnson.com and EFT training at https://iceeft.com. --- 3 Books Dr Johnson Recommends Every Therapist Should Read: Attachment in Adulthood, First Edition: Structure, Dynamics, and Change - https://amzn.to/42xt6LU A Secure Base - https://amzn.to/497ax3W Hold Me Tight: Your Guide to the Most Successful Approach to Building Loving Relationships - https://amzn.to/4bwCJ1C Interview Links: — Dr Johnson's website - http://drsuejohnson.com — EFT training - https://iceeft.com

Dr. Sue Johnson is the founder and leading authority on Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a type of therapy that helps individuals, couples and families improve their relationships by understanding and managing their emotions. She has written dozens of books on the topic, including the bestsellers “Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love,” “Attachment Theory in Practice,” and “A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy.” Dr. Johnson is also the founder of ICEEFT and has received numerous awards and recognitions for her contributions to the field of psychology, including the Order of Canada, The Psychotherapy Networker Lifetime Achievement Award, and the American Psychological Association's Award for Distinguished Professional Contributions to Applied Research. See Dr. Sue Johnson's public website at www.drsuejohnson.com

Dr. Sue Johnson is the founder and leading authority on Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a type of therapy that helps individuals, couples and families improve their relationships by understanding and managing their emotions. She has written dozens of books on the topic, including the bestsellers “Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love”, “Attachment Theory in Practice” and “A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy”. Dr. Johnson is also the founder of ICEEFT and has received numerous awards and recognitions for her contributions to the field of psychology, including the Order of Canada, The Psychotherapy Networker Lifetime Achievement Award, and the American Psychological Association's Award for Distinguished Professional Contributions to Applied Research. See Dr. Sue Johnson's public website at www.drsuejohnson.com

【主播的话】2005年，英国作家珍妮特·温特森在出版的小说《重量》中写道：“一本书就是一个世界。在阅读时，每个人都能轻而易举地接纳多重世界。”这是温特森的感受，或许也是我们很多人的感受。在离散时代，书本让人看到生活的纷繁杂芜，阅读并非封锁或逃避，它本身就是一个出口，一张“属于每个普通人的世界地图”。4月23日世界读书日，不合时宜·全球成长计划的伙伴们共同制作了一期“书的世界地图”的书单分享节目。我们的社群中有来自50多个城市、20多个国家的社群伙伴。在选取的推荐中，每一部作品都会带我们探索不同地域之议题。在阅读与流动中，我们期望世界是鲜活的，人与人之间相互关联、合作且彼此依存。————

This episode may get your heads scratching if you're tuning in from a society that has very specific relationship dynamics and arrangements in place. My curiosity to how other's live their lives and what they deem as healthy for their relationships has never been higher, as I am in the process of becoming the best partner and friend myself.In this episode, I speak to Akil Apollo Davis, a full-time Performing Artist & Theatre Professor of Mask and Art Aesthetic. He has been a unique and influential presence in New York City's performance, educational and cultural avant-garde for 2 decades. We discuss the ins and outs of this thing called Sex Positivity. And to give you a brief idea, sex positivity is a social and cultural movement that promotes an affirmative and open attitude towards all aspects of sexuality. It encourages individuals to embrace and explore their own sexual desires, preferences, and identities without judgment or shame. Sex positivity emphasizes the importance of consent, communication, and respect in sexual relationships. He has trained with Monks in Thailand, Brahmans in Bali, Witches in New York, and has worked with Psychologists to bridge the gaps between esoteric knowledge and classical paradigms. Akil's Karmic mantra: there must be more light. Episode Highlights Meet the one and only Akil How he went from celibacy to monogamy to discovering consensual non-monogamy Akil's understanding of attachment and fear in relationships The establishment of monogamy Accessing your healthy sexual energy The tiers of being non-monogamous, and the importance of communication on your wants and needs Emotional maturity Real life examples on how non-monogamy works The ins and outs of play parties The downsides of sex positivity/monogamy Compersion - a new word to remember Resources, courtesy of Akil:Sex-Positivity for Curious Minds 1.“The Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships & Other Adventures” by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy2.“Come As You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life” by Emily Nagoski3.“Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships” by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá4.“Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships” by Tristan Taormino5.“What Makes a Baby” by Cory Silverberg (for all kinds of families)6.“Queer: A Graphic History” by Meg-John Barker and Julia Scheele7.“The New Topping Book” by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy8.“The New Bottoming Book” by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy9.“Girl Sex 101” by Allison Moon and KD Diamond10.“Pussy: A Reclamation” by Regena Thomashauer11.“Urban Tantra: Sacred Sex for the Twenty-First Century” by Barbara Carrellas12.“Sex God Method” by Daniel Rose13.“The Art of Sexual Magic: Cultivating Sexual Energy to Transform Your Life” by Margo Anand Psychological and Emotional Work for Curious Minds1.“The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma” by Bessel van der Kolk2.“The Sexual Healing Journey: A Guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse” by Wendy Maltz3.“Healing Sex: A Mind-Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma” by Staci Haines4.“Radical Acceptance: Embracing Your Life With the Heart of a Buddha” by Tara Brach5.“The Mastery of Love: A Practical Guide to the Art of Relationship” by Don Miguel Ruiz6.“Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love” by Dr. Sue Johnson7.“More Than Two: A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory” by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert8.“Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy” by Irvin D. Yalom9.“Sexual Intelligence: What We Really Want from Sex—and How to Get It” by Marty Klein Improving Your Sex Life1.“She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman” by Ian Kerner2.“The Multi-Orgasmic Man: Sexual Secrets Every Man Should Know” by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams3.“The Ultimate Guide to Kink: BDSM, Role Play and the Erotic Edge” by Tristan Taormino4.“The Multi-Orgasmic Woman: How Any Woman Can Experience Ultimate Pleasure and Dramatically Enhance Her Health and Happiness” by Mantak Chia and Rachel Carlton Abrams5.“The Multi-Orgasmic Couple: How Couples Can Dramatically Enhance Their Pleasure, Intimacy, and Health” by Mantak Chia, Maneewan Chia, Douglas Abrams, and Rachel Carlton Abrams6.“The Enlightened Sex Manual: Sexual Skills for the Superior Lover” by David Deida7.“Guide to Getting It On: Unzipped” by Paul Joannides, Psy.D.8.“Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man” by Ian Kerner  Get in touch with Stephanie: www.listeningwellpodcast.com | @listeningwellpodcast Thank you for Listening Well!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“Our society doesn't want to hear about how interdependent we are—doesn't want to hear that if we want to thrive, we have to put people first and we have to create community. And people need connection with others like they need oxygen. If you create a world where that connection isn't very available or it all happens on a screen, you are going to have huge problems. You are going to have huge problems with depression, anxiety, suicide, emptiness—people are going to make terrible choices.” (Sue Johnson)We need each other. We are relational beings, and our thriving—or languishing—often hinges on relationships. In this episode, psychologists Sue Johnson and Jim Furrow not only explain why relationships are so important, they offer practical advice on how to pursue healing, emotional regulation, and lasting thriving in all kinds of relationships.Sue Johnson is the creator of Emotionally Focused Therapy, the gold standard in tested, proven interventions of couples and author of many books including Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. Jim Furrow is a marriage and family therapist and an internationally renowned trainer of Emotionally Focused Therapy.This conversation goes from profound to practical, covering the biological and psychological science to explain why belonging gives way to becoming. We discuss the rampant emptiness and loneliness, fear, and depression people today experience and the connection between relationships and a sense of meaning in life. Sue and Jim also provide a framework for how to understand your attachment style and the way it impacts your relational health. And they discuss the practical ways we can grow and change so that we can engage in and sustain fulfilling and life giving relationships.In this conversation with Sue Johnson & Jim Furrow, we discuss:What it means to be fully alive, in all the existential fullness that being human meansHow to bring together the spectrum of emotional realities with our lived experienceThe crisis of loneliness we face today, and what we can do about itThe role of empathy and caring in the healing processAn introduction to attachment science, the role of attachment figures in thriving relationshipsAnd the therapeutic and relational practices that lead to security, a sense of worth, empowerment, and competence in life.About Sue Johnson & Jim FurrowSue Johnson is the creator of Emotionally Focused Therapy and author of many books including Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. Jim Furrow is a marriage and family therapist and an internationally renowned trainer of Emotionally Focused Therapy.Show NotesLearn more about Emotionally Focused Therapy (including ways to find a therapist)Sue Johnson's book, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of LoveWe're made for relationships.“We need to understand how crucial relationships are for us. They are oxygen. We need to help people value them and learn how to have them.”“If we're not willing to risk and we're not willing to reach, we're not going to necessarily be found.”“You can't be a self or by yourself. I think that says it all. That's the most basic human interaction. Do you share my reality? Is my reality valid? Do you see what I see? Can you make sense of it? Can you help me make sense of it? Is what I'm feeling making sense? Can you share it? Am I alone? I mean, this is the most basic human contact of all.”The purpose of our being and our means to becoming.Episode SummaryPam King welcomes Sue Johnson and Jim Furrow.What is thriving meant to you?“Full existential living… fully alive.”Carl Rogers“Trust yourself to go through life in an active way.”“Fulsome being… not only who I am, but who I'm with.”Purpose, meaning, and connectionTherapy is not only about reducing thriving to the treatment of symptoms.Coherence vs Binary Thinking: “How does all of this cohere in a new way of making sense?”Mother and Child: Explaining reality and needing other people to do soUnexpected, unknown, and fearAttachment figuresFullness vs. EmptinessThe relational isn't just a means to an end. It's our purpose.Sue's relationship with her father: “He was an amazing attachment figure.”“I'm an ardent feminist.”Understanding attachment through loss and griefSue Johnson on working with trauma survivorsJohn Bowlby: “You do unto yourself as you've been done to.”“Just to have some sort of sense of who you are, coherent sense of self, you need the recognition from another person. Yes, you matter. Yes, you're important. Yes, you have meaning. Yes, I see you. … to not feel seen, to not feel like you matter to anybody is, it's excruciating for human beings.”“One safe relationship with a loving other. seems to protect us and create resilience.”Jim's loss of his father: “I know he's going through a difficult time, but I believe in him and I know he will make it.”The power of attachmentFully oneself, fully connected with anotherAttachment to God: foundation, protector, shield, transcendentSpirituality and experience of attachment through the beauty and transcendence of nature“My life is part of this beauty.”Animate, invigorate, create.“Your worth comes from your connection to others.”“But no, we're not enough. But I think our society doesn't want to hear that. It doesn't want to hear about how interdependent we are. Doesn't want to hear that if we want to thrive, we have to put people first and we have to create community.”Interdependence and affective dependenceHow to forge relational bonds.Attention“Love and bonding is about attention and if you don't give attention to the other person in your relationship, which means if you don't take the time, make it important enough and focus down and spend time, then whatever connection you have naturally erodes.”ARE—Accessible, Responsive, and Engaged“It's more than date night… it's about engaging with the other person.”“Loneliness and depression are going to be the main problems for the next century.”Relationship-driven church communities“One of the things that is a heartbeat in our work in emotionally focused therapy is calling individuals into opportunities to share vulnerably with one another.”John Cacioppo (loneliness researcher): we have changed deep relationships from an essential to an incidental.Vulnerability and lonelinessDepressed or heartbroken?The impact of smartphone technology on relationshipsEmpathy and caring in the healing process“When the vulnerability becomes specific and makes sense and is accepted, then people have words for it, they can tolerate it, and they start to be able to share it. And when they do that, they pull their partner towards them. They evoke empathy and caring. That's the only solution to human emotional pain that there really exists—s the empathy and caring of another. That is true in religion too. It's the empathy and caring of a God figure. That's about bonding. It's about sharing vulnerability.”“No one goes through vulnerability alone.”Belonging leads to becomingPam King's key takeaways:Being fully alive means finding coherence and connection with others. finding meaning in human and spiritual relationships.Relational bonding is built in to our genetic code. We're built for connection and made for relationships and we have to work at it.Relationships are powerful. They are capable of bringing sorrow and joy. To the extent that they're able to break us down, they're even more able to build us back up and bring us to healing.Longing for relationships is natural and normal. While loneliness can be so frightening, it does not need to be stigmatized. But it does need to be worked through.Often healing comes through the very wounds we're hurting with. We heal when we open up in vulnerability, when we seek transcendence and connection with others, and ultimately with a loving and caring God About the Thrive CenterLearn more at thethrivecenter.org.Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenterFollow us on X @thrivecenterFollow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter About Dr. Pam KingDr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking. About With & ForHost: Pam KingSenior Director and Producer: Jill WestbrookOperations Manager: Lauren KimSocial Media Graphic Designer: Wren JuergensenConsulting Producer: Evan RosaSpecial thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.

Our guest this week is Kyle Benson.Kyle is a marriage and sex therapist who has worked with dozens of couples to help them understand the root causes of their wants, needs, insecurities and find the truth in their relationships.In today's conversation, Kyle and I talk about how to cultivate intentionally intimate relationships, how to adjust the “thermostat” on your relationship, balancing individuality with partnership, and how to root out defensiveness and stonewalling to allow for effective communication.Connect with me and to connect with this podcast via Instagram where we produce weekly video content and would love to get a chance to know you, our listeners! If you have a second to rate and review this podcast, that would also mean the world to me and help get these messages into more heads and more hearts!Connect with Kyle: @_kylebensonConnect with David: @dr.davidskolnik.dptConnect with the Show: @essential.strength.podcast Recommended ReadingFor New Couples & Those Currently Dating: Attached & Wired for DatingFor Committed Couples: 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love & Eight DatesFor Non-Monogamous Couples: PolysecureFor Better Sex: Magnificent SexAction PlanYour action plan this week is specifically for the listeners who are in a committed relationship. I want you to take a page out of Kyle's book and schedule 30 plus minutes of uninterrupted time with your partner where you talk about the things that are going well in your lives (both individually and as a couple), areas of stress and uncertainty, and areas where you could really use each other's support. This conversation could happen on the couch, at the kitchen table, on a walk, or over dinner during date night. The only rule - NO PHONES, NO DISTRACTIONS - if you think you're going to need to take notes, grab a piece of paper and a pen. This is about internal togetherness.That's it for this week. Until next time we wish you STRENGTH and GOOD HEALTH!

Books and Selected Other Work by Jason SchneidermanHold Me Tight (Red Hen Press, 2020)Primary Source (Red Hen Press, 2016)Queer: A Reader for Writers (Oxford University Press, 2016)Striking Surface: Poems (Ashland Poetry Press, 2010)Sublimation Point (Four Way Books, 2004)“Nothingism: A Poetry Manifesto” in The American Poetry Review (April 2019)“How the Sonnet Turns: From a Fold to a Helix” in The American Poetry Review (June 2020)Also ReferencedSarah PolleyD.A. PowellSylvia RiveraAndrew SullivanDavid BrooksSue Johnson, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love (2008)Tom SleighWalt WhitmanOscar Wilde, “The Portrait of W.H.” (1889)Anne Carson, Eros: The Bittersweet (1986)Jacques Lacan, mirror stageSigmund Freud, melancholyLeo Bersani, "Is the Rectum a Grave" (1987)Andrea Dworkin and Catherine McKinnenFrank O'HaraThe Hanky CodeEmily DickinsonErika MeitnerTilda SwintonDerek JarmanJorie GrahamJames GalvinAnn Pelligrini, ed. Queer Theory and the Jewish Question (2003)Freud, Dora: An Analysis of a Case of Hysteria (1905)Rachel Zucker & Arielle Greenberg, Home/Birth: A Poemic (2011)Ellen BassDouglas ManuelJoni MitchellKiki PetrazinoJudith Liz HermanEllen Bryant VoightCarl PhillipsThe Little Red Riding HoodRussell EdsonWisława SzymborskaSylvia PlathFranz KafkaWayne KoestenbaumRachel Zucker, MOTHERs (2014)Randy Shilts, And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic (1987)Gaeton DugasDouglas CrimpJames Frey, A Million Little Pieces (2003)David Shields, Reality Hunger: A Manifesto (2010)Lucy Grealy, Autobiography of a Face (1994)The New CriticismJacques DerridaHomer, The Illiad (c. 8th Century BC)Unknown Author, The Somonyng of Everyman (c. 1516)William Shakespeare, Hamlet (1603)Charles DarwinKarl MarxAlbert EinsteinSigmund FreudFerdinand de SaussureArthur DantoJ.K. Rowling, Harry Potter series (1997-2007)Daniel Radcliffe, acknowledged author of the Harry Potter seriesGremlins (1984)George Orwell, 1984 (1949) and edition edited by “Moira Propriety”William Carlos Williams, Spring & All (1923)Jennifer L. KnoxDavid TrinidadDennis CooperPaul AusterJane AustenMichel FoucaultUSC Shoah FoundationGeorge Eliot, Middlemarch (1871)Marie Kondo, the concept of "sparks joy"Music by Judah Goren [Transcript TK]

What do you do if you want to have conversations about emotions with your partner, and all they want to do is talk about how they think about things? Or vice versa? In today’s episode, we dropped in with Sue Johnson for a few minutes to get her take on this question. Sue Johnson is the author of “Hold Me Tight” and the creator of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy (EFT) - and has trained thousands of couples therapists in her methods. Sue also reveals one thing that you can do, today, to add positive energy to ANY relationship. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Want to experience a Luxury Suite or VIP Box at an amazing concert or sporting event? Check out Suitehop.com/DATENIGHT to score sweet deals on a special night for you and your partner. Resources: Visit Sue Johnson’s website to learn more about her work. Pick up your copy of Sue Johnson’s book, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/sue4 to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Sue Johnson. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Satin. Today we're gonna do something a little bit different. We are going to dive in quickly with one of the world experts on relationships to get answers to some of your questions. I dropped into the relationship alive community on Facebook and said, "Hey if you had 10 minutes to talk with Sue Johnson, today's guest, what would you ask her?" And then I was like, "asking for a friend. Okay, I'm asking for myself." And so we got some great questions from people and so I wanted to take this opportunity to ask them and to share just a few moments with our guest - as I mentioned her name is Sue Johnson, she is one of the world's experts on relationships and specifically on how we use attachment theory and attachment science to build stronger bonds with our partner and to thrive in connection. It's also a great way to understand when things are going south, why they're going south, and how to rebuild your relationship. Neil Sattin: Sue Johnson is also the creator of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy also known as EFT, and has trained thousands of therapists around the world in using EFT, to help couples. And it is one of the methods that has been empirically shown through research to be effective at helping couples build stronger relationships. Sue has been on the show before. If you've been a long-time listener, you know that. To listen to any of her other episodes, you can visit neilsattin.com/sue, S-U-E, and then a number. And so, there's just sue or there's sue2 and sue3 she's been on all of those times. So this will be sue4. And we will have a detailed transcript as always, that you can get by visiting that URL or by texting the word PASSION to the number 33444 and following the instructions. Sue Johnson, so great to be here with you again, on Relationship Alive. Sue Johnson: Hey, it's always fun. Nice to be here. Neil Sattin: Great, great, so thank you for being willing to just jump in and go with a few quick questions. As opposed to our long conversations that we often have. It's so easy to talk to you for a long time 'cause there's so much to say about this topic. Let's start with, I thought this was a great question. And this comes up all the time, what can you do if you're in a relationship where one person loves to talk about emotions and feelings and have those conversations and the other person would rather talk about things and events and when you start having an emotional conversation with that person they start to shut down. And that often creates this dynamic where they're each kind of wanting more of the other or in some cases less of the other. What advice would you give a couple in that situation? And maybe you could speak to both members of the couple and how they might come to a better place. Sue Johnson: Well, if we saw a couple like that in EFT, in therapy or if we saw a couple like that in one of our educational groups, our Hold Me Tight groups, we would get them to talk about just what you said, to talk about the process. Everybody stays with the content, and with their own kind of dilemmas and their own kind of issues. And from that point of view all you're left with is that these two people are different. Yup people are different. Everybody's basically incompatible on some level but they're not. Because you can talk about the process. So if I was sitting down with that couple, I would ask the person who wanted to talk about emotion, "Could you share with your partner what's happening for you and what it's like for you, when you're... What is so important for you about wanting to share your heart?" And you make it simple. That's the other thing, "What is so important for you about wanting to share your heart, about wanting to understand something about your partner's emotions? Can you help him understand that?" And the person might say, "Well yeah, there's times in the relationship where I kind of feel lonely, it's like I'm in a relationship, but I can't quite put my hand on you Tom, I don't quite know where you are, I don't quite know how you're feeling about me, and I kind of feel lonely." Sue Johnson: And when people talk on this process level, it's usually new to the other person. The other person says, "I didn't know that you felt lonely, I felt like you were just fed up with me and that I wasn't emotional enough for you." So this is how it kind of goes. Usually the person who's looking for this emotional connection is saying, "Where are you, where are you, where are you? Can you connect with me? I need this emotional connection." And we know how important that is to people. Psychology pathologized that for a long time saying, "Oh no, you shouldn't need that. It's somehow immature." And now, what we're understanding is, no, no, no, it's just who we are. It's how your brain is structured, you're a bonding mammal and you need this sense of connection. So that person would say, "I don't need to talk about my emotions forever." That's the other thing, that people have fears the other person who's more withdrawn or more introverted would say, "Well, like if we start talking about emotions, are we gonna have to talk about it like for a week?" Usually the fear there is, "I'm gonna get overwhelmed." I'm not gonna know how to do it right. Sue Johnson: So it's important for the person to say, "No, I don't need to talk about emotions for a week, I just need to be able to check in with you and connect." And the other person says, "Oh well, that's really not so hard." And then the other person needs to be able to say, "I'm slower than you. I'm more externally focused than you. I'm not as embedded as you in my emotions. I need to think about it a bit and I'm not always sure how I feel. And if I'm gonna share with you my emotions then you got to like understand that. And I also wanna connect about other things." The joke with me and my husband is that, his favorite place to go is a hardware store. [laughter] Sue Johnson: So I can't remember where we were, we were somewhere exotic. Oh, we were on this beautiful little island, a couple of days ago. And we're wandering around after coffee, and my husband's looking across the street and he's looking at the hardware store, and I said, "No. You don't wanna go in the hardware." He said, "I just wanna go in and find... " Right, so I wanna go look in the art galleries, he wants to go to the hardware store. The point is, if you can talk about them and talk about your needs and your softer feelings, and you can be responsive to your partner, you can deal with all kinds of differences. Tricky part is, that so many of us, that's not what happens. Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: What happens is we get stuck. We get stuck. The person who's wanting connection gets upset and angry and says, "You never talk to me." And that's a challenge and it's an accusation, really. And then the other person feels like they're failing, they can't do what they're partner wants and they say, "Well I don't wanna talk right now, I'm busy right now." So they shut down more; the more they shut down, the more the other person gets upset, and that is what brings so many people into seeing someone like me. And that's what I try to lay out for people in my book for the public, Hold Me Tight, because so many people don't understand that we can get trapped there, and then the dance takes us over. And before you know where you are, the other person looks like the enemy, and looks like somebody who's so different than you, that you don't even know what to do with it. So it's a good question. And we think it's always about gender, but it's not always. I've worked with folks where it's the man saying, "I wanna talk to you or I wanna get close." And it's the woman saying, "What are you talking about? I come home from my law practice, I'm exhausted." And so people have to be able to be emotionally accessible and open and responsive to each other. It's not about making cognitive deals. Cognitive deals, they don't go to the right level. It's about being able to share what's going on with you. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: I don't know if I've answered your question. Have I answered your... I think I have. Neil Sattin: You have. Yeah, in detail. And one little point about that, that I'm curious about, because I was thinking about the question and thinking, "Okay, so we reached this point." As you said, it used to be pathologized when someone was emotional in a relationship. How do we avoid pathologizing the other partner who is less emotionally oriented? Sue Johnson: I think what we've learned over the years in emotionally focused therapy, is we think of emotions and how we deal with emotions as somehow random or irrational. And what we've learned over the years is emotions aren't irrational for a start, there's always a good reason for why you feel the way you feel. Emotions are all about telling you what matters in the world and what is important for your survival. And people have very good reasons. They have learned to focus on certain things and to deal with their emotions in a certain way to survive. And they're standing in front of you, so it worked, it worked on some level. Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: And now, that's what they know how to do. So I remember working with a man who could hardly... He could not look into his wife's face, for sure, and talk about his inner world. If he was going to do it, he had to go very slowly and stare at the rug, stare at the carpet. But what he told me was, he grew up in a very violent family, where the music to their dance was all kind of hostility and rage and violence all the time. So any time he heard that music, his brain would go into alarm. And his brain would start looking for ways out. And he needed to be able to tell this partner that, but they were very good reasons why when she would up the emotional music, he would start to freeze and go still. Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: And there's no point in telling him that's bad or you mustn't do that, that doesn't help at all. The most useful thing is to say, "Well, you must have a very good reason for that. Obviously, that was important for you to be able to do that right now. And can you tell your wife how can she help you? How can she help you not move immediately into that shutdown?" Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: He said, "Oh, she can talk slowly." And his wife roared with laughter, because, of course, she spoke very fast. [laughter] Neil Sattin: Totally. Sue Johnson: He said, "She can speak slowly, because everyone in my family spoke very fast and all this fast emotional stuff coming at me, and I feel like I'm in a hail of bullets." Listen to his image, "I'm in a hail of bullets, I'm gonna get hurt." Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: No, we must not pathologize. People have certain ways of regulating their emotions. And the thing about that is, if we accept them and we understand them, people can then add to them. Relatively withdrawn folks can learn to come out and talk about what's happening inside and know that it works, and that the other person listens and actually it creates connection. And people who are really hungry for emotional connection, for all kinds of good reasons, could also learn to trust another person and to not have everything so urgent all the time. Like, "You've got to speak to me now." Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: Can translate into, "Basically I know you care for me, and I'm gonna take a deep breath here, and I'm gonna give you some space after you come home from work. And I'm gonna trust that, then if I come and talk to you, you'll be willing to talk to me." Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: So it's a lot of distress in relationships comes from partners triggering each other and ending up feeling disconnected and insecure, rejected, or abandoned. And as human beings, what people don't get is that feeling rejected and abandoned by someone you count on, your brain translates that into a danger, straight danger, just like walking up on a freeway, crossing a freeway is danger. Your brain says, "Uh-oh, emotional isolation. If you call no one will come. Danger!" Right? Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: And people don't understand how they trigger each other. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And so the words that come up to mind for me is: One, I'm hearing that there's this sense of moderation. The "emotional person," I'm putting that in quotes, like learning how to be emotional without overwhelming another person. And the less emotional person learning like, I don't think anyone is devoid of emotions, but learning like, "Oh, there's actually something happening here." And it could be useful, it doesn't have to overwhelm the system. But it's not like you're gonna turn a non-emotional person into emotional person unless they discover some joy in that. I'm reminded of a conversation with... Sue Johnson: I think that's a good point. Yes. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I'm reminded of a conversation with Dan Siegel, where he talks about... He was doing mindfulness work with someone who was in their 80s or 90s and woke that person up to their physical sensation and their emotional experience, and suddenly the world was a rich place where they really wanted to be and we're enjoying it more. It's not to say that that's required, but I think that's available for people if they're willing to dip their toe into that water. Sue Johnson: Yes, and also in relationships, the bottom line is, relationships are all about emotion, relationships are a dance, and the emotion is the music, and relationships are all about emotion. So when I'm working with a couple and one partner says something pretty loaded they're like, "Well, sometimes I think about leaving. I get so desperate I think about leaving." And I say to the other person, who might be the rather shutdown person, "What's happening for you?" And they say, "Nothing." I mean, I deal with it respectfully, but the bottom line is, in my head I say, "No. That's impossible. If you care about this person and you're not dead, and you're not a lizard, you are feeling, because she just sparked alarm in your mammalian brain. In your mammalian brain that knows that emotional isolation and losing someone who's a huge resource for you and who you depend on is a safety cue. Your mammalian brain knows that, your whole nervous system sings that song." So when people say, "No. I feel nothing." I just go, "Aha!" Neil Sattin: Right. And I think with what you're... Go ahead. Sue Johnson: Then I say, "Let's try that again. She turned to you and she's dead." And I run it past his amygdala again and finally he says, "Well, well, well, I don't know. I just wanna get out of here." So then he starts to tell me, "My body tells me to just get out of here. So then we go with that." And the whole thing opens up. We haven't taught people to trust their emotions and listen to them and make them their friend, we haven't taught therapists that. We've taught people that emotions are sort of dangerous stuff, they get out of control, they're associated with women. [chuckle] Women kind of going hysterical. Neil Sattin: What's wrong with that? Sue Johnson: Yeah, that's a bad idea. So there's a lot of interesting stuff in our society about putting rationality on a pedestal and ditching our emotional realities, actually, when the bottom line is, it's our emotions that organize our inner world and it's our emotions that organize the signals we send to others and the way we dance with others. So from my point of view, we might as well get to know them and start to use them well, but then I do something called emotion-focused therapy. So I am gonna feel that way. Neil Sattin: Right, right. Thank you so much. I'm wondering before we go, 'cause I promised something quick, and it's so easy to talk to you, and we could keep talking about that very topic, probably for an hour. Sue Johnson: We could. Neil Sattin: I'm wondering if you'd be willing to just... Anyone listening, if they wanted to do one thing today that would infuse their relationship with some positive energy, and if they're not in a relationship maybe just infuse their relationships with others in their life with some positive energy. What's one thing that they might be able to do? They turn off this podcast and they can go and do it today. Sue Johnson: Oh my goodness, there's so many things you could do. Neil Sattin: I know, I know. Sue Johnson: There's so many things you could do. What we see when couples have repaired their relationship or when they've gone through our education groups, is that they reach for each other. They reach for each other, and they risk sharing. So that's what we do when relationships are working. So that doesn't have to be a big thing. I worked with somebody last week, for a whole week. This young woman was helping me, and at some point during the evening I looked across at her face and I saw... And she was starting to talk about something and I saw the emotional music change and her face change, and I suddenly really got in my body that this was something... She was in pain, she was certainly in pain. She wasn't just chatting anymore, she was in pain. And usually, I don't know what we do with that, we kind of don't want to embarrass the person, so we stay away. And I just had this incredible feeling, so I saw that she was vulnerable, so I reached. Sue Johnson: So what did I do? I didn't want to embarrass her, so I just went around the table and sat beside her and put my hand on her arm and looked at her. What I was saying to her, we do so much non-verbal. What I said to her with my eyes was, "I see that you're in pain." And she just turned into my neck for a minute. Some other people at the table might not even have noticed. She just turned into me for a minute and put her hand on my hand. It was like, "I see you. I see you and I care that you are there." And so, I reached to her and she... It's like her whole body told me, "Thank you. Thank you for this." People love it when we see them. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: We do this with our dogs, we do this with babies, we forget the adults want it too. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: My dog will come and drop his toy at my feet, and I'll say, "Oh, you want to play? You're such a good dog." And my dog will quiver in joy. Why can't we do that with people? Just see them, see them and respond to them. It's so powerful, and in our busy lives, we don't do that very... We don't listen, we don't honor, we don't say, it's like we say to people with our actions, "I see you. We're two human beings on this planet. In this short little time we have here, I see you. I'm with you, you're not alone here, you matter." That's a very powerful message. Neil Sattin: I agree. Such a gift to give someone else your care, your attention, to actually see them fully. Thank you so much, Sue, for joining us for this quick dive into your world and your world of relationships. Sue Johnson: So is this sue4? Neil Sattin: This is sue4. Sue Johnson: It is sue4 and do I improve every time, Neil? Neil Sattin: I think we both improve. I think we both do. Sue Johnson: Okay, that was very insensitive of me. Yes, you do improve, Neil. We both improve every time. That's right. Okay. Neil Sattin: Thank you so much for your willingness to join today and yeah, for you listening, neilsattin.com/sue4 to check out the transcript and download it. And Sue, I'm so looking forward to talking with you again sometime soon. Sue Johnson: Yes. Take care. Neil Sattin: Take care.  

How can what we know about attachment and the power of our emotions, create deeper intimacy and resolve conflicts with your partner? In today’s episode you’re going to learn about a particular kind of conversation that you can have with your partner that can change everything. This week, our guest is Sue Johnson, author of  Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, and the founding director of the International Centre for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. In Hold Me Tight, Dr. Johnson shares her groundbreaking and remarkably successful program for creating stronger, more secure relationships and she’s going to share some of her wisdom on that topic with you today. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Also, please check out our first three episodes with Sue Johnson – Episode 100: Attraction – How to Sustain It and How to Revive It – with John Gottman and Sue Johnson, Episode 82: How Safety Leads to Better Sex – Sue Johnson, and Episode 27: Breaking Free from Your Patterns of Conflict with Sue Johnson. Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored an amazing company with a special offer for you. Our first sponsor today is Audible. Audible has the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet and now, with Audible Originals, the selection has gotten even better with custom content made for members. As a special offer, Audible wants to give you a free 30 day trial and 1 free audiobook. Go to Audible.com/relationship or text RELATIONSHIP to 500500 to get started. Our second sponsor is one of my wife Chloe’s favorite online clothing retailers, ModCloth. With the year wrapping up, it’s time to put a bow on 2018 and...think about new outfits, and the new you! Whether you’re still craving cozy sweaters or you’re ready to start stocking up for spring, ModCloth is your go-to. To get 15 percent off your purchase of $100 or more, go to modcloth.com and enter code ALIVE at checkout. This offer is valid for one time use only and expires on March 3rd, 2019. Resources: Check out Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight Online course Visit Sue Johnson’s website to learn more about her work. Pick up your copy of Sue Johnson’s book, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/sue3 to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Julie Henderson. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome, to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. We've spoken a lot on this show about attachment, and the way that attachment influences how we operate in our lives and in our relationships. And I wanted to bring back one of the masters of showing us how to use what we know about attachment in relationship to the show, to talk about her new online program, and also to answer some questions from you, because we had some people in the Facebook group chime in with questions for this illustrious guest, who has been with us several times before. Her name is Sue Johnson. You probably know her as the creator of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy or EFT, which is how we'll refer to it in this episode. She was here in Episode 27, talking about how to break free from patterns of conflict. She was here in Episode 82, talking about how creating safety in your relationship leads to better sex. And we had the double hitter in Episode 100, with her and John Gotman, both talking about how to sustain and revive attraction in your relationship. Neil Sattin: Today, we're going to focus on Hold Me Tight, which is one of Sue's breakthrough books that explains how couples can take this journey, these several conversations that they can have, that lead them into deeper intimacy both in terms of understanding themselves in relationship, also how to work through conflict, forgiveness, sex, you name it, it's there in the book. And this has all been rolled out recently in an online program called Hold Me Tight Online, we're going to talk more about that. Sue also has a book coming out right around the beginning of 2019, on attachment theory in practice. And this is using emotionally focused therapy with individuals and families as well as couples. So, we may touch on that a little bit, and hopefully we'll also get to have Sue back to chat when that book comes out. Neil Sattin: I think that's enough from me. In the meantime, if you want to download a transcript of this episode, please visit neilsattin.com/sue3, so that's S-U-E, and then the number three. Or as always, you can text the word Passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions to get the transcript for this episode and our other episodes. Neil Sattin: Also, if you are interested in the online program that Sue is going to be talking about, you can visit neilsattin.com/holdmetight, and that will take you to a page where you can find out more about Sue Johnson's Hold me Tight Online program. Sue, thank you so much for sitting through that long introduction and it's such a pleasure to have you here again with us on Relationship Alive. Sue Johnson: Oh, it's always nice to be with you. Neil Sattin: Well, we have a lot to talk about today, and we'll do our best to be succinct. And I also want to encourage you listening that we're not going to go over all the finer points of what we've already talked about, those other episodes are there for you to listen to. But Sue, maybe we could start by just talking about what is emotionally focused therapy, what makes it unique from other ways that people might be used to working with therapists or understanding themselves. Sue Johnson: Emotionally Focused Therapy, as the title suggests, it basically works from the premise that the most powerful thing in a relationship is the emotional music that's playing. The emotional music is what structures a relationship, it's what organizes a relationship, defines, leads the partners to dance in a particular way with each other. So it's sort of dedicated to the idea that, if you want to understand relationships, and if you want to shape your relationship intentionally, whether to repair it or whether to just simply keep it strong, it's very important to understand the emotion that's going on when you dance with your partner. It's important to be able to deal with that emotion in a way that pulls your partner towards you. It's important to understand the impact you have on your partner. So EFT, really has focused on making emotion the couple's and the therapist's friend, and shown therapists and couples how to understand that emotion, how to deal positively with emotion, and how to use emotion to feel more connected with your partner. Sue Johnson: And I think the fact that we know how to use emotion, and we honor emotion in our work with couples, is one of the reasons why... The other special thing about EFT, is that we have a fantastic amount of research on outcome. We have over 20 studies, positive outcome studies, which makes us unique in the field of couple therapy. We're the gold standard of research in couples therapy. We do not have a problem with relapse in our research, which is pretty amazing, really. It always surprises me every time we do a study and we find no evidence of relapse, because all the sort of elephant in the room in couples therapy is that even if you can create change with a couple, you see them in a month's time or in six months time and they've kind of relapsed, they've gone back to being distressed. And that's not the case in our therapy. Sue Johnson: It's unique in that it's based on research, in terms of intervention. We've been doing this for 35 years now. It's unique in the way it deals with the most potent thing in the room, which is emotion. But in the end, the real thing that I think makes EFT different is that it's not based on somebody's idea about what love is or what relationships are all about. It's based on hundreds and hundreds of studies of adult bonding. It's based on a science of love. And so we have a map to what matters in relationships, what goes wrong, and exactly what you have to do to put it right. And that means that the EFT therapist is on target. We expect to create change, we expect our partners to grow, we expect our couples relationships to look not only a little happier, but more secure and be more stable at the end of therapy. Sue Johnson: Obviously I'm biased here, because I'm talking about my own work. I'm talking about 35 years of research and clinical work. But the truth is that we're the only approach to couple and family therapy that's based on a real science of relationships, and that science is attachment and bonding. And I think also, because of that science, in this model... The model suggests that together we're much more powerful than we are individually, and it values and honors connection between people. And so EFT practitioners and ICEEFT, the International Center for Excellence in EFT, which is our not-for-profit organization; basically, the headquarters are here in Canada. We've created communities all over the world. I think we have about 66 right now, affiliated with us to support therapists and health professionals to learn EFT, to get together and support each other, to help each other grow, to help therapists in those communities contribute to relationship education. Sue Johnson: We believe in creating community and I think that's something special about EFT. We do that wherever we go. The latest community that looks like it's going to take off is in Iran. Neil Sattin: Wow. Sue Johnson: And that's fascinating. Because of course, attachment science is about who we are as human beings. Attachment science applies to all of us, regardless of tribe, religion, political persuasion, race, gender. Attachment science, basically, is based on biology, and it tells us who we are as human beings, what our most basic needs are. So that's a bit of a mouthful, but that's what's special about EFT. [laughter] Neil Sattin: Right. Sue, I asked you for the short version. Come on. Sue Johnson: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: Okay, well, that's very hard, Neil. You know how passionate I am about what I do and how successful we are, so how can I... I'm sorry, that's the shortest I can manage, okay? Neil Sattin: No, that's great. And one thing that I really appreciate about the experience that you offer couples who are going through EFT, is that it literally does bring them along on an experience that allows them to feel each other in a different way. To feel each other's emotions in a different context, and to have that experience of getting through situations that are really tender, or challenging, or triggering and get to the other side in a way that is really constructive for their relationship and for their bonding. Sue Johnson: Yes. And we're talking about therapy here, but I know that later in the program we're going to talk about Hold Me Tight. Neil Sattin: Yes. Sue Johnson: The Hold Me Tight educational program is based on my book Hold Me Tight. And I put that relational program together. There's groups all over the countries, and all these communities run by therapists, or even people who aren't therapists. Pastors, anyone can actually buy the program and run the group, a Hold Me Tight group. And what always blows my mind when I go and do one of these groups, I think the biggest one I've ever done was with 100 couples at a time in San Francisco. And what always blows my mind is, people come up to you in the groups... Usually I do them over a weekend. And they go through the conversations that we teach them in the book. And people come up to you and they say things like, "Well, we just came cause we were curious. We don't even have any real huge issues in our relationship. And I thought that our relationship was pretty good, but this group experience has taken our relationship into places I never even knew existed." Sue Johnson: I just had one of these beautiful ones last week. This person sent me an email: "We didn't even know that we could have this kind of closeness and this kind of emotional connection. And we feel like it's changed how we'll be with each other in the future, so thank you." And I think what they're talking about is the profound, profound effect of being able to help people move into profound, bonding, conversations. They are the conversations... This is biologically prepared, powerful, experience. These are the conversations that our nervous system is wired to resonate to. These are the conversations that our brain says, "Yes, this is safe, and this is close, and this is what I want and need. This is what gives me the ability to stand up in the world and be strong." And people resonate with them. They are powerful, powerful experiences. And that's why we don't get relapse. Because you're brain... If you know how to have these bonding conversations, you remember them. They're not just something you put aside and say, "Oh, that was interesting but I don't think about it anymore." Sue Johnson: Your whole nervous system zings with the memory of them. And once you've had these experiences, your brain wants you to go back there. So bonding experiences are... We remember them all our lives. We remember the moments when we were vulnerable and our father turned and held us and said something to us. We remember that all our lives, we hold on to it. We go back to it when we're unhappy and sad. We go back to it with a thrill of joy. These experiences are core to what we need as human beings. So when you help people move into them in therapy or in an educational group, or even online together in the privacy of their own home, there's something very profound about that, and truly growth producing for individuals and for couples about that. And attachment science has shown us how to get there, how to... If we really understand who we are as human beings, of course we can craft powerful, transformative, experiences. Right? And that's the thing that keeps me passionate about this work. I think it keeps... EFT is passionate in general. Neil Sattin: And I want to take our listeners on this journey, a little bit, today. We'll give them a taste of this kind of experience. But before we do, I'm curious about how do you get when someone isn't along for the ride? [chuckle] Neil Sattin: And this is often the case in a couple, right? Where one person hears Sue Johnson on Relationship Alive and says, "We gotta find an EFT therapist, or we gotta buy this book Hold Me Tight." Or whatever it is, right? And the other person is maybe just like, "Yeah, I don't buy that therapy stuff." Or, "Sounds really like unhealthy co-dependence." When people come at it with their negative bias about it, or maybe they're just stonewalling and they're shut down to the influence of their partner at this stage in their relationship. How do you help enlist the partner in actually wanting, or hopefully, inviting them to participate in something like this? Sue Johnson: Oh, well that happens quite a lot. Even when people come for therapy sometimes, they're kind of being dragged there. Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: You can tell they're waiting... They're in the room with their teeth gritted, and they're... [chuckle] They're just wanting to wait for you to stop talking so they can explain how they've got to leave now, that's how you feel. What we do in EFT is what we always do. We start where people are. It's an incredible mistake from an EFT point of view to start telling people to be different. You just become dangerous when you do that, and they'll protect themselves against you. So, we start where we are. And I can give... For an example, I just did a session with an an Inuit couple, and we started with the fact that to sit and talk to somebody like me is definitely not part of Inuit male culture. And we talked about the fact that from his point of view the very best way of dealing with any problem was to go hunting. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: And I talked about that with him. I didn't explain therapy. That's the wrong channel. He's not interested in getting information from me, he's not even interested in it. So we talked about hunting, and we talked about what that did for him, and how when he hunted he felt competent. And he was out in a bitter environment but he was somehow in charge. And we talked about how strange it was for him to even think about sitting and talking about his emotions with someone like me, or reading the Hold Me Tight book. And as I joined with him, and listened to him, and had him teach me about how he dealt with his emotions, engaged other people, dealt with his needs for closeness, how he dealt with his vulnerability, which is... You can't get out of those things, they are universal, right? Unless you're a lizard or something, you have to be actively engaged with those three things. As we sat and talked about it he became more open. And I said, "Alright, well it sounds like your hunting has saved your life. It sounds like your hunting has really done a lot for you. And I think it's wonderful that you've been able to do that. And you're right, I can't offer you that experience. So would you like to talk to... Are you curious at all? And maybe I can help you feel some of the same kind of sure... " Sue Johnson: Cause he talked in words like "sureness" and "ground under his feet". He used these images. So I said, "Well, maybe I could help you find some of that sense of sureness and ground under your feet, when you're talking to your lady and you see that she's disappointed with you, which I'm hearing is one of the moments where you decide to go hunting." [chuckle] Sue Johnson: And I'd listen to him, he'd listen to me. He experienced me as safe. I wasn't telling him how to be. And so he said, "Yes that would be interesting." And he starts to look me in the eye and he starts to look up at me more, and he starts to... He's suddenly engaged. And we begin. We begin with what would he like to change in his relationship and what is happening to him in those moments in the relationship? We begin with his pain, we begin with the dilemmas that he would like a solution to, and we go slowly because in his culture that's the way it works. You speak slowly and you deal with things at a slow pace. I'm sorry, I'm getting interruption here, I forgot to turn off my phone it'll stop in a minute. Neil Sattin: It's okay. Sue Johnson: So we go slowly. And gradually he comes, he becomes curious. So you start where people are, you validate their uncertainty, their reluctance. If you think about it just in very human terms, the last thing you want to do if you are uncertain and vulnerable, is to go to talk to some strange professional person about that. You're worried about being shamed, you're worried about them telling you that there is something wrong with you, you're worried about what they are going to tell you about their relationship. You don't feel safe. Neil Sattin: Right. And of course what's challenging about these conversations when they happen just between partners in a relationship, is that they are so often very quickly triggering conversations. Sue Johnson: That's right. That's right. The partner hears, "Well, you don't even care enough about our relationship to go and talk to somebody about it, so that just proves what a creep you are." And people get stuck there. But what we are talking about is also another reason why I went to all the trouble to try and create the Hold Me Tight program, educational program. Because I assume that even though couple therapy is becoming a bit more normative, there are a huge number of people who would rather have their feet roasted in an oven than come to couple therapy, right? And they won't come. So I said, "Okay, then maybe they'd come to a group put on by their pastor in their church. Or, maybe they'd come to a group put on in the local hall with 10 other couples." And then it went to, "No, there's a whole bunch of people who won't come to that either." [chuckle] Beause in our culture, we hide our vulnerability or our uncertainty. And so I went, "Okay, well then there is a whole bunch of people, maybe they'd do an online program that's friendly and fun, and they do it in their own homes where they feel safe and private." So then of course that leaves us putting all the energy into creating an online. Sue Johnson: And I think what we are talking about here is the EFT commitment. Well, I'll just make it personal, my commitment. The commitment in this model, and if you are an attachment theorist, is not just to create a very good model, research it, and teach people about it. Which is big enough. We've been doing that for 35 years. The commitment is that as a psychological approach, that we have something to offer society and that we can help society learn to honor and value relationships, shape better relationships. That's what we're trying to do. So therapy, education. I think the main issue here that we're up against, where the person asked the question, is that our society, our culture, has not seen love relationships as something that are understandable, are shapeable, that you can shape, that you can learn to create, that you can nurture deliberately with intention. We don't talk about love like that. We say you fall in, you fall out. And we've basically had a very narrow mistaken view of romantic love relationships, and I think who we are as human beings. So people, they really don't see... They not only, "I'm not sure a therapist can help or a group can help." They really don't see love as something that you can craft and shape and understand. And we're trying to change that. We're trying to have an impact on that. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I think that's one reason why we resonate, you and I, so much is that that's definitely part of my mission and Relationship Alive's mission in the world as well. To affect that transformation. Because that is definitely a big deal, that there are a lot of people who don't quite understand that you can actually adjust things in ways that are actually helpful. Sadly, I think a lot of people have this story that they know of a couple that tried therapy and it just blew up their marriage or that sort of thing. It's just one positive experience at a time, I think, and the way that that ripples out in to the world. That people get the sense of, "Oh actually we know a lot more about how to do this than we did 20 years ago." And that's why we are having this conversation. Sue Johnson: Right. And that's the message we keep trying to get out there. And you know it is so interesting, the news is always focused on bad news. That's what the news wants to report. But I always say I don't really understand, it's beyond me why at some point, it hasn't been all over the front of the New York Times, that we now have a science of romantic love, of love period. That we now understand it. We have an incredible theory and science about what it's all about, that attachment started off with looking at the bonding between mother and child, and now it's grown. In the last 15 years it's been applied to adult relationships, and it really has so much to say about who we are and what we need to thrive and survive, and how we are relational beings, and how to create good loving relationships. And surely, this is revolutionary. Surely this is at least as important as understanding DNA, I think so. Neil Sattin: It's at least page two, if not the front page. Sue Johnson: I think it's the headline. I think it is much more important than us putting all this energy into going in rockets to the stars. Why don't we learn to become powerful, bonded, connected, cooperating human beings on this planet? Maybe we wouldn't need to go to the stars. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Yeah, I hear ya, I totally hear you there. And this makes me wonder too, because there needs... I want to befriend to that person or persons who decide what goes on the front page of the New York Times. And if I meet that person I'll put in a good word for you, Sue. Sue Johnson: For sure, okay. Neil Sattin: And I am thinking that often what brings light on a particular subject is not how amazing it is, although sometimes that is true. But often it's the controversy that accompanies it. And that makes me wonder for you, your own perspective on what I think some people do still perceive as a controversy between attachment theory in relationships and how important it is to understand the science of bonding, and differentiation, and people learning to stand on their own two feet, and taking responsibility for themselves. And the interplay of those things. Yeah. So go ahead. Sue Johnson: Well, basically I think we in psychology have a huge responsibility here. Because we didn't know enough and so we set those things up. We set up being a strong individual and acknowledging your need for others as dichotomies. We set them up like they're on opposite sides of a long line. Like they're opposites. And of course they're not. That is a mistaken way of looking at it. All the research, and I'm talking about thousands of studies now. All the research since about 1960 points to the fact that the bottomline is the more securely connected to others you are, the more sure you are of yourself, the more... If you like, the more securely connected you are, the more articulated, coherent, and positive, your sense of self is. So, you find out who you are, you differentiate with others, not from others. If you look at the differentiation literature, it almost implies that there is a point in time where you just decide to look in the mirror and define yourself and tell yourself you're great, and that you can self soothe and you can do all this for yourself. This is nonsense, this is not who we are. We never get to that point. Sue Johnson: And the only people who look in the mirror, and totally define themselves and tell themselves they're wonderful and don't need other people, we call them psychopaths. And they are not particularly known for being wonderful members of society or particularly happy. It's a mistake we made because we didn't have the big picture. We just saw a little foot of the elephant that said that our needs, if they are expressed in negative ways, can get us into trouble. Our needs for others can get us into trouble, And indeed, that's true. But that's what we saw. So in family therapy for example, we focused on issues like enmeshment. And that's so interesting because we don't do that when we work with families in EFT. We focus on how people deal with their anxiety, and we help them move into that anxiety and hold it and regulate it, and be able to express that anxiety in ways that are not cohesive to other people, and not demeaning for themselves. And ways that pull the other people close. And they grow, and the relationships grow. That's what we do and we do it all the time. Sue Johnson: We don't find enmeshment or co-dependency particularly useful concepts. We just see it that people are stuck being anxious about the safety of their relationships. And when you're anxious, you either get all upset and try to yell and scream and demand and control things, or you tend to shut down and numb out. And neither of them are useful. They don't get you what you need. I think what I'm saying is, it's a much more integrated and rounded out and complete picture of differentiation and individuation and self soothing that you get from taking the whole picture of attachment and bonding in context. It's the little child who knows the mother will come if he calls, who goes out and believes that he can run down the slide, and who manages his distress if he finds that maybe he falls off the slide. He knows that if he calls his mum will come, he's in a safe universe where he feels loved and held, and his mother has come a number of times. So he's learned that distress is manageable and that he can manage it, and that he can call for another. He's internalized that sense of safety in the world. And he will grow up with a stronger sense of self and a stronger ability to go out into the world and take risks. Sue Johnson: This isn't a theory, there's thousands of studies on this now, this isn't a theory. Securely attached people who know how to trust others and reach for others, and who believe that others will be there for them, consistently have a better self-image, they are more able to take risks, they're more able to face the world, they're more resilient. They're basically, if you like, more differentiated. So this dichotomy is a false one, and it's really about the old theories of human functioning which are kind of in boxes. We've never had the whole picture coming up against the new approach to looking at human beings, which is attachment. And it's really the conflict between the old and the new there, and there doesn't have to be a conflict at all is what I'm saying. Neil Sattin: Right. I appreciate that. That you've, I think, shown very clearly how they include each other. That one comes with the other. And as soon as you split them apart that's when they start, either one, starts to become a little dysfunctional. Sue Johnson: I think on emotional level it really isn't about that. I think on an emotional level, it's about the fact that we all know that if we need another, that introduces a level of vulnerability. And I think, and especially in our society, we don't want to talk about that vulnerability. We want to believe that we're invulnerable. And society says you're supposed to be able to soothe yourself, deal with everything, live life at 50 miles an hour, have everything. So we want to believe we're invulnerable. And what attachment really says is, "That's not the way to real strength." Real strength is to understand where you're vulnerable. Understand the essence of your vulnerability, which is also a beautiful thing in human beings. Understand their need for closeness, the way they be able to tune into others, and you're own need for closeness, and accept that vulnerability. And then know how to deal with it positively. That is really strength, not the denial of vulnerability." Neil Sattin: Yeah. And this makes me think of the Hold Me Tight conversation. Sue Johnson: Yep. Neil Sattin: And I love how in our very first conversation where we talked about changing your conflict patterns, we talked a lot about discovering your demon dialogues, and the first three conversations that are part of the overall Hold Me Tight sequence. Sue Johnson: Yes. Neil Sattin: But then I'm thinking of the fulcrum, really, of Hold Me Tight sitting in the middle. So could we talk for a moment about what is the, 'the', Hold Me Tight conversation that happens and why is that so important? Sue Johnson: Well, what happens in a Hold Me Tight conversation is you have already... If you're helping a couple create one, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it in therapy or in an educational group or in an online program. Before you ask people to go into a Hold Me Tight conversation, you have helped them create a certain safety and sense of trust in their relationship. Because you cannot do a Hold Me Tight conversation while you are vigilant for danger, waiting for a negative pattern, like some sort of... Waiting to deal with an attack from your partner, or just waiting for your partner to let you down. When you're on guard, you can't move into a Hold Me Tight conversation. So you have to have a certain sense of safety first, and we've learned to take you there in EFT, and all the various forms of EFT. But once you have that, really what a Hold Me Tight conversation does is it moves people gradually into the three elements that we know are key to a bonding conversation. Sue Johnson: What defines the safety of a bond in a relationship is how emotionally accessible, responsive, and engaged you are. A-R-E; Accessible, Responsive, and Engaged. And I always relate it to, that the key question in a lot of relationships is, "Are you there for me?" A-R-E. Are you accessible? Are you open? Are you responsive to me? Will you tune into me? Will you move towards me when I call? Am I important enough that you'll tune into me and pay attention to me? Do you care about my needs? Will you engage me? Will you come and meet me on the dance floor? Maybe struggle even if I'm struggling with me? Are you committed to really being with me in a dance, even we are caught in a negative dance? Hold Me Tight conversations really create that emotional openness, that ability to send messages to each other that evoke empathy and caring, help the other person respond, that help us see that vulnerability in our partner and respond with what they need. And help us stay engaged even when that engagement gets hard. And it's really about being able to talk about... In the end, it's a conversation about your fears. And we all have the same fears in relationships, we're all terrified of rejection and abandonment. Sue Johnson: Those things are wired in, it doesn't say... It's nothing to do with personality strength or anything, it's to do with the fact that we're bonding animals, and abandonment and rejection are danger cues to our mammalian brain. They're life threatening, literally. We're born so vulnerable, when our brain is being formed, we know how to take our next breath, that if we are totally rejected or abandoned and left, we die. We know we're at risk. And we never lose that sense. So this vulnerability is wired in, and we're all afraid of rejection and abandonment, so we have these fears. And how we deal with these fears really has a lot to do with how we end up engaging others. And then it's not... But it's not just about how we deal with our fears, it's about whether we can actually know how, or have had the experience of being able to actually pinpoint our needs for connection, comfort, support, caring. Our needs... Just to share our reality to find out how valid it is. That's such a human need. Sue Johnson: To be able to share our needs, pinpoint them, and share them in a way that our partner can hear them and pulls our partner close to us. In the end, a bonding conversation is about sharing your vulnerabilities, your fears, and your needs in a way that helps your partner respond and come close. And helps you and them become accessible, responsive, and engaged on an emotional level. And that is the essence of bonding. And powerful conversations that can change the way you see yourself, the way you see other people, the way you experience your world. Neil Sattin: So this conversation that's about talking about your fears, sharing your needs and your vulnerabilities with your partner. And I love how you... The important thing comes at the end there, which is, in a way that invites your partner closer. Sue Johnson: Yeah. Neil Sattin: And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what allows that to happen versus... 'Cause I think some people might hear that and think, "Oh god, my partner's already so needy and vulnerable. They're needy all the time. So I want them to be more needy? How's that going to work?" Sue Johnson: No, it's not about being more needy. It's about being able to hold on to your emotional balance and own your needs, and then ask for them to be met. And that is very different from what most of us see as the norm in relationships. Which is, "I expect my... " For most of us it's like, "I expect my partner... If my partner loves me, my partner already knows my needs." That's a huge myth in relationships. And what we want to do is we want our partner to respond to those needs without us having to actually show that we need. Because in our society we've been taught that showing that you need is somehow shameful or not okay, or it means you're immature, or whatever it means. It means you're not an independent adult, whatever that is. So most of us don't want to show our needs, and we don't quite know how to talk about them. And so then of course we're massively surprised that the message doesn't come across to our partner. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: It's quite humbling to write these books and do all these training tapes and do all these studies, and then talk to your own partner, or your own children, your own son, and hear yourself doing exactly the same things that we all do, and that couples do. You just hear yourself rather than turning and telling your partner that you are feeling upset by something and you would like to be reassured and comforted, you hear yourself turn and get accusatory or demanding or give advice or start telling your partner they should know better, having been married to you all these years, and read Hold Me Tight a few times. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: They should know better and they should be more supportive right now. Which of course I'm asking for support in a way where I have a hammer in my hand and so my partner just looks at the hammer and backs off. We get stuck in these dances because we're not tuning into our own emotional music or our partners. We don't make it easy often for our partner to see what we really need, and then when we don't get what we need, we're not very good at keeping our emotional balance and dealing with that. We get very agitated and attack or criticize, or we shut down and numb out. And neither of those things work. It's what a good science does, is it tells you how to look at basic phenomena in the world and understand them and how they work. Sue Johnson: And attachment science tells us how we work emotionally, and how relationships work. And giving advice to your partner, telling your partner what to do, explaining to your partner that they're somehow inadequate, [laughter] that doesn't work. That might be more comfortable for us than pausing for a minute, taking a breath, getting our emotional balance and saying, "What is happening with me, why am I getting so agitated here?" Then realizing that we are off balance, we're on our back foot, and we need someone to reassure us or just calm us for a moment. And being able to slow things down... And that's a lot of it actually, that emotion is fast and sometimes it's overwhelming for us and we either numb it out or we get carried away with it. Sue Johnson: Being able to keep your balance and slow things down and say, "Oh, I'm finding that very difficult, getting this letter that is telling me that I'm maybe not going to be considered for this promotion. I was pretending it didn't matter to me but in fact I'm finding it very difficult indeed. And what I really need is to be able to tell my partner somehow I feel kind of small right now because I expected to get an interview immediately, and I expected everyone to be delighted to interview me. And I'm feeling pretty small and I just need some support and reassurance." That's not what occurs to us. We get irritable or... So there's lots of ways not to connect, unfortunately. There's lots. And we do them anyway, even when we sort of know lots of information in our prefrontal cortex, we still get stuck. Neil Sattin: Right, because that part of our brain is turned off when we're in those moments of distress. And I'm wondering, for you, especially because you so graciously pointed out that you may have moments where you don't act quite by the book, What are your... Sue Johnson: Of course. Neil Sattin: What are your best ways, what are your favorite go-tos in your relationship for regrouping when things have gone off the rails a little bit? And I'm looking for your specific ways you bring yourself back into balance, ways you take responsibility for what just happened and corral the interaction back into a more generative space? Sue Johnson: It's interesting because basically I tune into all the things I've learned in EFT, but I can't... That takes a while. So if you ask me what my fast route out of that is, I'm usually able to see the few minutes of interaction, and I'm able to see the negative pattern, that I'm not actually asking for what I need. I'm usually able to see it. I should be able to do this after watching thousands of couples and all kinds of research studies. And so I'm able to see. My vision expands, if you like, from the little tiny piece of interaction that I just had or my feeling of frustration that I'm feeling. I listen to what I just said to my partner and I'm able to hear it in a broader context or see, " Wait a minute, that doesn't work, this is not the dance I want to be in." So I somehow have to have a sense of that. That I'm somehow getting stuck in some sort of narrow place that isn't going where I want to go, which is to feel safer, sounder, more connected, reassured. Somehow I know I'm going in the wrong direction. Sue Johnson: And then one way of thinking about that I've been thinking about lately, and I've written about it in my new book that's coming out in January, which is a professional book. Is I change channel. I change channel from just coping with the emotion and somehow putting it out to my partner in a way that I'm just putting it out and I'm not actually thinking about how to really connect with him with that emotion. But I change channel. And usually what that means is, I change into listening to my emotion differently, and being able to stay with the softer feelings. And I think that's what people do in general when they can do these things. They move from somehow lecturing their partner or complaining or pointing out issues or just saying a few things and hoping their partner are going to guess. Sue Johnson: They move into being able to name their emotions and to say... Or describe them in very simple ways. Like, "I feel small," or, "I feel uncertain right now," or. "for some reason I'm feeling really uncomfortable, maybe even a bit scared, and I don't quite know why." They trust themselves enough, they trust their partner enough, that they can go into those softer feelings. And when they do, when they move into that emotional space, emotion just... It's like the picture evolves. It's like what you're scared of becomes clearer, what you need becomes clearer. And when you turn and change channel into that deeper more open emotion, you give different signals. It's just natural if you stay there. Saying to someone, "For some reason that conversation I had with that person left me feeling really, really, frazzled and uncomfortable, and even a bit scared and I don't know why." That is an invitation to empathy and connection. That's completely different from, "I've had a bad day and you're not helping. I thought you were going to cook supper. And what I hope is underneath all my bad temper, you're going to see that I really need some help and comfort. But unfortunately you don't." [chuckle] "You just see that I'm dangerous and you avoid me." Right? Neil Sattin: Right. Which is exactly what you don't need in that moment. Sue Johnson: Yeah. We are not wired to deal with our vulnerability by ourselves. We can do it if we have to, for short periods of time. But we're not wired, and it's not the most efficient and effective way of dealing with our human vulnerabilities. It's not the strongest or best way to deal with our human vulnerabilities. We're wired, we're social bonding animals. We're wired to connect with other people. We're stronger together. Neil Sattin: What I hear you saying too is that, by changing the channel, you're basically going from the channel that's all about, "I'm having this emotion and I'm expressing it on you." To the channel of, "I'm realizing that I'm having this emotion. And if I wanted to connect with my partner in this moment, and around the fact that this is how I'm feeling, how would I do that?" Which invites maybe a totally different course of action in that moment. Sue Johnson: Yeah. But I don't think it's as deliberate as you're making it sound here. Usually in the first instance, people are being reactive. They're actually coping with softer emotions by shutting down or being very... Just giving facts. Or getting angry and becoming demanding. They're actually... Those are coping devices, really. The real core emotion underneath is not spoken, and so then the partner doesn't see it and doesn't see the need that that core emotion speaks to. There's a lot of conversation about this too. There's all kinds of conversations in our field about how empathy, and how empathy is a skill and you have to teach empathy skills, you have to train for it, I'm sorry, I don't think so. Sue Johnson: Empathy is right into us, it's there. What we have to do is understand what blocks it. And the main thing that blocks it is, I can't be empathic to my partner if I'm too busy dealing with my own overwhelming emotions. If most of the glucose going to my brain is dealing with my own discomfort, fear, uncertainty, I don't have any room to tune into my partner's emotions. I don't think we teach empathy, we model empathy, I guess. In Hold Me Tight groups and in the online program, people will see models of couples interacting with empathy and connection, but in the end, it's really about what blocks it, how you put out your message that blocks your partner's natural empathy, or how you can talk to your partner in a way that evokes that empathy. People are naturally empathetic and responsive, so in the EFT we just understand the blocks. And we help people dance in a way that those blocks don't come up or to see beyond those blocks. I guess that sounds a bit abstract but I think it's clear. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I think that's getting at the heart of the question that I asked you a few minutes ago, around how do you have the Hold Me Tight conversation? A conversation where you're able to tell your partner about your vulnerabilities and your fears and your needs, without it coming across as being a demand or being needy, that it comes out of that place of being aware of your feelings and seeking, I think you've said it a couple times now, the softer emotions that are underneath the things that are on the surface. Sue Johnson: Yes. And I think the other thing about that is, a big part of EFT is it's a lot easier to do that if you grasp those emotions, and you have the normalized and validated, and you don't see those emotions as somehow proof that you are somehow not strong enough. Or that you're somehow not mature enough or that there is something wrong with you. A lot of EFT is validating, honoring, and holding people's emotions. Walking, setting up experiences where they walk into those emotions gradually, and at the same time are safe in that experience because they are given a framework where those emotions are understood, honored, validated. And our society hasn't been very good at that. We don't teach kids in schools about their own emotions or about the impact they have on other kids, and how to have safe conversations. We don't teach that. It's insane, we teach kids trigonometry but we don't teach kids what I just said, and so that's nutty. There are thousands of couples out there in the world. Sue Johnson: I'm just going to give a talk, public talk, in a few weeks in Toronto in December, called "What Every Couple Needs To Know", at the big Museum in Toronto. And I really believe that this stuff is what every couple needs to know. There are thousands of couples out there who have no way of understanding the dances they're caught in. No way of understanding even their own needs. You say to people, "What do you need?" And they say, "I need her to stop nagging." Or, "I need the conflicts to stop." Or, "I need... " These kinds of... "I need my partner to have more communication skills." These are huge. They don't know how to really go to the core of what they need and what they want. And we have taught people to be ashamed of them. So, a big part of EFT is we help people understand their own emotional lives, their own... The terrain of emotion. And who we are as bonding animals. And when you can accept those needs, when you can accept that we're all human beings who need comfort and security, and life is so huge. We all need to put our hand out in the dark and call, "Are you there?" And have a reassuring hand come and meet ours. And when we can do that, we can deal with the dark. And that's just the human condition. Neil Sattin: That makes me think too that that must be how EFT approaches couples where one partner or another has a deeper trauma history. Sue Johnson: Absolutely, that's right. And I think EFT is particularly suited to helping traumatized couples, traumatized individuals. Well, in fact what's interesting is we're talking about Hold Me Tight educational groups, that's only been around for a while. And this is what happens in EFT. Things have sprung up. There's now a Hold Me Tight educational group called, "Hold Me Tight, Let Me Go", for teens and their parents. There's a Hold Me Tight educational group based on the Christian version of the book Hold Me Tight, which is called, "Created For Connection." Which looks at how Christian beliefs fit in with attachment science and the link between those two. There's a Hold Me Tight educational group for in medical settings, which is very interesting. The biggest one we've just done, which we've just got a huge grant for, in Canada, is the Big Heart Institute back in Ottawa has asked us to adapt the program, and I hope one day we'll adapt the online program for this, too. Adapt the program for couples we're dealing with where one person's had a heart attack, because the research says that the best predictor of whether you'll have another heart attack, is not the severity of the first heart attack or even the damage done to the heart, it's the quality of your most intimate relationship. Sue Johnson: And so the cardiologist actually read this research. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: And said, "Oh, we're a relational human beings." "Ah, relationships really impact health." "Ah, we better get this crazy lady in and she can adapt her educational program to cardiac patients." So we did that. It's called, "Healing Hearts Together", and the preliminary data on it says it's great, really works. I ran a few of those groups and they blew my mind, they were wonderful. So everybody needs to know this, and the uses of creating this knowledge about what matters in love and how love works and how to repair it and keep it, has infinite, infinite usefulness. Whether it's in therapy, in educational groups, and for sure, we've got to take this stuff online. The Hold Me Tight Online was a huge project. Took us four years and oceans of grief and work. And there was a number of times when I really thought, "What on earth am I doing this for?" But you have to do it. If you feel that we all need this, and that we... This is sort of very basic information for us thriving and surviving. We have to make it accessible for people and so many things are online now. Neil Sattin: Yeah. And having gone through the course online, I can say that it's clear how much effort that you put in and how you tried to address different learning styles and give people lots of different examples, and make it entertaining at times. Sue Johnson: Yes. [chuckle] We even have cartoons, which at first, when my colleague said, "We need a cartoon couple." I said, "No, no, no, no, no." But yeah, we've got cartoons and we've got music and we've got images, and we've got me giving chats and other experts giving chats, and we've got exercises that we tailor to you. It was a lot of work. But hopefully, the couples... The idea is that it's accessible to everybody, then. What I would like, which is a complete silly dream, but... Oh no, it's actually not a silly dream. What I would like is for our western governments, the government of Canada, for example, to say, "Okay, Sue, we'd like to make the Hold Me Tight Online educational program available to all couples in Canada, or everyone who's just gotten married or something. We'll make it incredibly cheap. Will you help us do that?" And I say, "Of course." And I was just going to tell you that's impossible, and I forgot that actually a much simpler version, not at all the online program we've got now, but a much, much simpler, pared-down version. The government of Finland, has actually just helped my Finnish colleagues make their version of Hold Me Tight Online, a very simple version of it, available to almost all Finnish couples, which blows my mind. Neil Sattin: Wow. Sue Johnson: But they've done that because they believe that stable loving relationships and stable loving families, create stable, caring, positive, thriving societies. And of course, they're right about that. That's the way to do it. So. Yeah. Why am I talking about this? I don't know. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: Hold Me Tight online was a lot of work, but at this point I'm quite proud of it. And I'm glad that you enjoyed it and that you found it very... We wanted to make it fun. We made it for the people who would never dream of coming for therapy or even reading my book or even going to a group. So we thought, "Well then, we better make it fun because these people are used to having fun online." We did our best. I think it's pretty good. It's just like everything we do, we're very pleased with it for about a year and then we find ways that we could have done it better. This is kind of classic. I know that I'm going to feel the same way about my book, my therapy book that is coming out in January, which is EFT For Individuals, Couples, and Families. But it's really a book all about attachment. I know that I'll be pleased for about a week, and then I'll read it, and by next Summer I'll have found all the ways that I could have done it better. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Well, fortunately, that ensures new editions or new books or new versions, and new conversations for the podcast. So I feel totally fine about that, that you're... Sue Johnson: Do you? Neil Sattin: Yeah. That you'll be constantly improving. Sue, you've been so generous with your time and wisdom. And I do want to ensure that everyone has the links so that... They will be, of course, available on the page for this episode which is Neilsattin.com/Sue3. And then you can also, if you're interested in the Hold Me Tight online program, you can visit Neilsattin.com/holdmetight and that will take you to a page where you can find out more about the program. Sue, I'm wondering if we can... I have just two quick questions for you. Sue Johnson: Sure. Neil Sattin: They can be quick or not, it's up to you, But if they're quick it's totally fine. The first was another take on when I asked you what are your favorite ways of coming back when your conversations have gone off the rails, and you brought up changing the channel. Often, because we're such astute observers of our partners, it happens that we notice that our partner is totally triggered about something. Sue Johnson: Yes. Neil Sattin: And so I'm wondering, when you notice, "Oh, my husband is... He's triggered right now." What do you like to do in order to help bridge the gap in that moment? Sue Johnson: That's a nice question. I think the best guide to this is what we naturally do with beings where the vulnerability is not so hidden, I.e. Children and dogs. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: If you watch people with little kids, or you watch people with dogs, which I find fascinating, okay? They naturally, if they see vulnerability, if you watch them they slow down, they lower their voice, they lean in, they give more attention, they give a focused kind of attention, they might ask a question or they might reach with their hand. You know? It's fascinating to me... Let's just take dogs, if you watch dogs. I remember sitting in a Starbucks, I can't remember why I was doing this, years ago. And watching all the people look on their cellphones, and all the people completely avoid contact, and was thinking, "Goodness, me. This society, we're becoming lonelier and lonelier." And then I sat and watched and there was a line of dogs tied up outside the Starbucks on these posts, right? So they're all sitting there, it's a Saturday morning. So you watch all these people come out with their... They've looked to their phones the whole time, they're carrying things, and they're busy and distracted, and it's a busy street so they've got to stop, right? And they look down, and it was so fascinating to me how many people looked down, and if the dog looked back, particularly if the dog was kind of small and didn't look very happy. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: These distracted, distant, disconnected people would... I couldn't hear what they were saying, which I think helped actually, because... You would think. I remember watching this man who put his coffee down, and leaned down, and talked to this dog. He was obviously comforting the dog, you know? Like, "Oh you're waiting for your master, you don't want to be here." Then he reached out and patted the dog on the head. He gave the dog more focused, soft, slow, connected attention than he'd given anyone in the Starbucks for whenever, right? Neil Sattin: Right. Sue Johnson: So we know how to do it. It's a question of tuning in and giving it. Unfortunately, sometimes we're not very balanced so we'll turn and say, "What the hell's wrong with you?" [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Right, right. That's why I love the way that you put it. Cause I'm so used to saying you see your partner and they're triggered, but I love your articulation of when you see vulnerability. Because that is what you're really seeing in that moment, is your partner in a vulnerable space. And if you know that your partner is the kind of person who, when they're vulnerable, needs space, is there an adjustment that you make to how you would respond to that? Would you just give them space and then revisit? Or is there a way to bring it out that doesn't... Sue Johnson: No, I'd reach and then give them space. Neil Sattin: Got it. Sue Johnson: I'd reach to say, "I'm saying I am accessible, I am here, I see you. But I'm not demanding that you turn to me right now. I see you, and I see that sometimes you need time when you're in this space. So I'm just seeing you and I'm here." That's a very powerful thing to do. Good parenting is that. Good parenting, parents know their kids style. And they do that. They say, I've seen people do it in therapy when they start to really mend their relationship. They say, "Well, I understand this is hard for you to talk about, and I see that and maybe when I was your age I couldn't talk about these things at all, and I just want you to know that I'm going to be here. And I see how hard it is for you and I want to help you. And I'm right here when you want to turn around and talk." This is amazing. This is an amazing invitation, right? And people can do that, they really can. They can offer each other that kind of space and that kind of empathy. I take account of your style of response. But for me to do that, I have to be feeling pretty safe. Otherwise, I'm busy dealing with my emotions about the fact that you don't talk about anything and that leaves me alone. And if I'm stuck there, I'm not going to be able to accommodate you. I have to have my own balance, if I'm dancing, before I can accommodate to you in that way. Neil Sattin: Right, right. Yeah. And so that brings us full circle to how we take care of ourselves when we recognize that we're in distress and take responsibility for how we're feeling in the moment. Sue Johnson: Yes. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: And I think a lot of it is, many of us are dealing with relationships which happen very fast in a busy world where there's lots of demands on us. And I think the central issue is that many of us don't even know what's possible. We've never even seen the kind of relationships that we talk about in these programs, and in EFT and therapy, where people can diffuse conflicts, stand together against a negative pattern, find a way to be accessible, responsive and engaged. People haven't even seen it. They've see a bit of it in Hollywood, which is usually infused with sexual infatuation. They've seen little moments of it, which I think is great. Okay? I think that's great. Right? One of the ways movies and books have always civilized us, right? In some ways. But they don't really know how to get there. So, lots of times we're trying to create relationships where we really don't have a model of what's possible at all. And that's why I hope therapists who like EFT will maybe think about running Hold Me Tight groups, will maybe try the online program themselves and tell their clients about it, or tell their communities about it. Because so many of us don't even know what is possible in our relationships. Sue Johnson: We haven't even seen that these conversations can happen. And when we know that, the world changes. Our sense of what is possible with other people changes. This is a huge thing. Right? Neil Sattin: It's true. And I've definitely seen that in my own connection as well, as it's evolved through our patterns of conflict and beyond, which has been nice. And your work has definitely been helpful for us as well, so I'm so appreciative of that. Sue, my last question... And you talk about dance a lot, and... Sue Johnson: Yeah. Well, that's because I dance Tango, that's why. Neil Sattin: Yes. And I think we've even talked about it on the show before cause my partner, Chloe, and I do dance as well. But I'm wondering, for someone who's listening and they're like, "This all sounds great and amazing and I want to try, and it also sounds a little heavy, a little intense." What do you recommend for people in terms of keeping things light? And are there actual ways that you incorporate lightness and play and fun into how you work with people? Sue Johnson: Well, sure. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Sue Johnson: Well, I do couples therapy because it's more fun and more interesting than anything else, personally. And when I run Hold Me Tight groups, I think it's fun. I certainly hope our online program's fun or we've completely failed. It doesn't have to be heavy all the time. Learning can be fun, it can be intriguing, fascinating, surprising... Neil Sattin: But you know, when couples feel like, "Ah, we're so stuck and it's going to take all this work." And there's some truth to that, right? It's going to take some work for them to shift their patterns. And yet, yeah, I think it's more about... Sue Johnson: Discovery. If you're feeling... I think it all boils down to a sense of safety. My sense is couples come to see me and in the first few sessions it's not fun at all, because they're scared and they're worried. When they start to relax with me and we can play, and we can look at the dances they have, and we can look at how normal they are, and we can play with them and share them, and we can look at how stuck they got, and see how silly it is in some ways. EFT is not always heavy at all. We have a lot of laughter. And people not launch themselves into these huge heavy conversations. They're very gradual, and we make safety as they do it. So, yeah, it's not all heavy. It's you take it at your own speed. And for sure, people find it intriguing. Sue Johnson: The dropout rate in EFT is really low. In our studies and clinically in practice, the way people report to us, people stay. Sure it's heavy sometimes, but people stay because they're learning so much. And it's an amazing journey, they're learning about themselves, they're learning about their partner. And there's a huge amount of fun in there. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and you're reminding me that some of... Honestly, some of the funniest moments, I think, in my relationship, are when we... After we've recognized a pattern, which is one of the early things that you suggest couples do, is how they identify what are the patterns that they typically end up in patterns of conflict. And then when you're able to see it happening, and you're able to have those moments of like, "Look at us, we're doing that thing, that... " Sue Johnson: Yes. Neil Sattin: "We're just doing it again." And it can be hysterical. Chloe and I will be in the middle of it. And we'll just break out laughing, from a place of pretty intense conflict when we have those moments of, "Oh yeah, that's us just doing that thing again." Sue Johnson: That's right. It's like I can think of a dance analogy. You can be dancing with a partner who you trust a lot. And the partner tries a very tricky move. I can think of one where my teacher who's a fantastic dancer tried a very tricky move. And I sort of got half way through the move, where he was going, and then I got my high heel caught in the hem of my pants. [chuckle] Sue Johnson: And as we both nearly fell down flat. Okay, we nearly

Dr. Sue Johnson is a clinical psychologist, researcher, and the developer of  Emotionally Focused Couples and Family Therapy (EFT), a powerful model that helps couples tune into their emotions to reconnect. She is the author of the bestselling book Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, an evidenced based program to help couples build safety. Among her many accomplishments, Sue has been appointed as a Member of the Order of Canada and was named Psychologist of the Year by APA 2016. In this engaging interview on Sue's 30th wedding anniversary, she takes us on an educational journey through the science of attachment and emotion, the foundation for our romantic relationship needs. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lovelink/support

Tony breaks down the dreaded “Demon Dialogues” from Sue Johnson’s book, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, THE go-to couples guide to Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Whether you and your partner engage in “Find the Bad Guy,” the “Protest Polka” or “Freeze and Flee” or at times, all of the above, discover tools to help you move past these communication blocks that can ruin relationships. He also discusses the Five Elements of a Complete Apology, as well as how to avoid a Token Apology.

Jim Enright interviews Stuart Fensterheim, a counselor specializing in couples therapy. Failure to care about a partner’s needs leads to arguments, pain, frustration and could eventually lead to a relationship’s demise. Stuart shares how couples can build and repair their relationship to truly lead a happy life. He discusses the value of accessing outside help as soon as possible and why Emotionally Focused Theory (EFT) in an incredible tool to help solve marital problems. Stuart also urges all couples to acknowledge the effort that their spouses put in small, day-to-day tasks, as a way to show your appreciation for them. Tune-in and discover ways to nurture, repair and ultimately have a relationship that you so desire and is made of pure GOLD.   Time Stamped Show Notes: ●     00:58 – Boomers need to concentrate on relationships along with health and finance ●     01:25 – Today’s guest, Stuart Fensterheim, has been counseling and teaching couples for the past three decades ●     03:37 – Originally a teacher, counseling is Stuart’s second profession; having watched his dad be in a profession that he resented all his life, he is grateful that he got a chance to take up a career that he really enjoys o      06:00 – Started working as a couple’s counselor with a family agency o      06:18 – Since he experienced a lot of pain and anguish from his parent’s divorce; started providing couple’s therapy in order to make a difference ●     07:19 – Leading a FULL and PRODUCTIVE life o      07:19 – A full and productive life is one through which you can make an impact o      07:32 – Need to establish a CONNECTION with the people in our world: our kids, our parents and most importantly, our spouse ●     09:41 – The key to your business success is your relationship at home ●     10:42 – A good relationship is the FOUNDATION of a happy life; if the foundation is shaky, then the house above it is going to be shaky as well ●     12:29 – Often the fights that keep on plaguing a relationship tend to injure a relationship; the trigger, rather than the actual issue, is what causes a fight o      13:47 – A true partner cares about your needs; absence of this care results in an insecure relationship ●     14:04 – Adopts an experimental approach that lets you DISCOVER something new about your partner o      14:53 – Negative experiences results in people building emotional walls around themselves o      15:35 – No sooner does a wife express a desire to talk, a man goes into an emotional shutdown; Stuart attempts to prevent this emotional shutdown ●     16:29 – The fact that couples fights a lot is NOT the problem; the real problem is that they do not REPAIR enough ●     20:00 – A relationship that is authentic and vulnerable is like real GOLD ●     20:57 – What causes a relationship to be SABOTAGED o      20:57 – Beliefs about your partner which are not accurate and acting as if they are o      21:18 – Triggers that lead to cycles of fighting o      21:45 – In the midst of a heated argument, it would really help if you could tell your spouse, “I love you. I don’t like how we are talking to each other. Could we do something that would make this easier?” ●     23:02 – Relationships are not “nice to have” but “have to have” ●     23:26 – People who are unable to establish an emotional connection tend to be in an emotionally dark state and do awful things ●     23:58 – Having a great relationship with your spouse results has a domino effect on your friends and family ●     26:00 – A big proponent of pre-marital counseling, Stuart believes that you need to have dialogue with regards to your triggers and insecurities before your marriage o      26:35 – Equips you to deal with challenges such as loss of job, raising kids and extra marital affairs o      26:52 – Likelihood of having an affair decreases through pre-marital counseling; affairs are a means to remove loneliness and sex is just a means to achieve that o      27:47 – Baby boomers need to encourage their children to take up premarital counseling o      28:35 – Zero-in on specialists who are predominantly dealing with couples ●     29:57 – One of the few attachment-based therapists, Stuart concentrates on dealing with the emotional aspects of a relationship; read Susan Johnson’s book Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love to learn more about attachment-based therapy ●     30:18 – Alternatively, you can visit Stuart’s website to learn more about attachment-based therapy; you can also tune-in to the Couple Expert’s Podcast ●     30:34 – Gottman method is the other theoretical framework that deals with couples counseling ●     31:35 – Believes that divorce happens because people give up; if you don’t give up, you will eventually get there o      32:00 – Resorting to EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) can save a marriage o      32:20 – Does not believe that a divorce is necessary, except in extreme cases where there is substance abuse and domestic violence o      33:08 – Research shows that couples tend to take the help of a therapist six years too late; resorting to help earlier when there are no emotional walls will surely save a marriage ●     34:34 – Face-to-face therapy is the best option since you can connect better with a person; however, if a couple has busy work schedules, Stuart also does Skype calls ●     35:52 – HIGHLY recommends pre-marital counseling to baby boomers considering remarriage; 50% of remarriages tend to end in divorce ●     37:06 – Get someone to guide you to remove the things that hinder the closeness of your marriage ●     38:41 – Celebrate your marriage by following RITUALS like going on a trip or renewing vows ●     39:05 – Every single day of your marriage, tell your partner how MEANINGFUL they are to you ●     40:34 – Emotional autopsy of a past marriage is important before proceeding into another relationship; figure out what did not work out in that past, and what you were accountable for ●     42:49 – Staying apart from your partner for some time will help you realize what your partner does for you ●     45:35 – As we age, you can enjoy the fruits of your labor in your marriage ●     47:34 – Listens to music by The Grateful Dead, Joni Mitchell and The Allman Brothers ●     49:52 – Wants to die while making love to his wife, Debbie, at the age of 99! ●     50:23 – Cut off ties with his family for a 10-year period on the insistence of his ex-wife; even in  a relationship, there are certain lines that cannot be crossed o      51:59 – A relationship should fit into who you are; there should be no sacrifices because all it breeds is resentment o      52:32 – Be in a relationship with someone who has equal values, morals, ethics and desires ●     53:29 – Get a 2 minute video, 5 days a week by signing onto Stuart’s website ●     54:04 – Subscribe to Stuart’s podcast and YouTube channel ●     54:36 – Attend a 2 day, seven conversation weekend hosted by Stuart ●     55:43 – Jim Enright’s sign-off message: Be stellar, and live life lively Enjoying this episode? Please Subscribe and Rate in iTunes. 3 Key Points: 1.       An AUTHENTIC and VULNERABLE relationship is like real gold. 2.       Utilizing resources and seeking help such as Emotionally Focused Therapy will help you rebuild your relationship and save your marriage. 3.       Show your appreciation for your partner; acknowledge the effort that your partner puts into small, day-to-day tasks.

One of the most common questions I get is about what marriage book I might recommend. That is a tough question in some ways because there are so many books out there, and every person responds to a certain book differently. So it's hard to be too prescriptive on this topic. But I can tell you there are about 7 books that I recommend a lot, and have been recommending for a long time. And the reason I recommend these books is because they have not only transformed my life and marriage, but they are the books that couples consistently report as being the most helpful and life-transforming for them. So in this episode I briefly talk about these 7 books. Each book is pretty different from each other. Some are Christian and faith based in their approach, while others don't come with any faith perspective. Some are pretty prescriptive in their approach, listing out steps and tools to use in your marriage, while others take a more philosophical and theological approach, but it's up to the reader to figure out how and if that applies to their marriage. Some talk about sex (one in pretty specific and graphic ways), while others don't even mention it. Some are more academic, while others are an easy read. So check out these books and see what may most apply and be helpful to you. Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love by Sue Johnson -- Great read by the founder of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Her seven conversations provide great insight and direction for couples working on their connection. Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy by Terry D. Hargrave and Franz Pfitzer -- This is perhaps my favorite book on marriage because it is the therapy model founded by my mentor and friend Dr. Hargrave. It's the model that I use in therapy with my clients and what I teach in churches and organizations. More of a technical read for therapists and practitioners, though helpful for couples who do want to dive into the theory. I talk with Dr. Hargrave about his model here, and discuss it's concepts here, here, here, here and here. 5 Days to a New Marriage by Terry D. Hargrave and Shawn Stoever -- this is the book that was written by the developers of the 4-day marriage intensives at The Hideaway Experience where I was on staff for four years. It's a simple, awesome read that walks couples through was is essentially Terry Hargrave's Restoration Therapy model. Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships by David Schnarch -- This book was probably one of the biggest life changing books for me individually, and in my marriage. It introduced me to the concept of self-differentiation in marriage, and it's ideas on anxiety and self-soothing are some of the most helpful concepts I use with couples. Schnarch is also a sex therapist, so this book will be the most graphic of the selection in terms of it's content. The 3 Big Questions for a Frantic Family: A Leadership Fable About Restoring Sanity to the Most Important Organization in Your Life by Patrick Lencioni -- though this is not a "marriage" book per se, it is super helpful in marriages. My wife have worked through this book and it has been marriage transforming for us. I have written about this here, and did a podcast about it here. The Mystery of Marriage: Meditations on the Miracle by Mike Mason -- This was really one of the first books that I read on marriage. I read it in seminary when I wasn't even dating anyone, and yet, it is a book I keep coming back to time and time again. One of the things I like about it the best is that it is not a marriage book with how to's or step by step instructions. It's more of a poetic and theological look at marriage. Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy, More Than to Make Us Happy? by Gary L. Thomas -- One of the premises about this book that I think is so helpful is the concept that marriage is a refining process that is more about making us holy than happy. That is a tough sell in today's culture.

Have you ever had the feeling that you get into the same kind of conflict, over and over again, in your relationship? And when you recognize that, do you feel more free- like you are able to stop the pattern in its tracks and do something better? Or, are you left feeling powerless once the train has left the station? Well, it turns out there is one major source of all conflicts within a couple, and today we are going to talk about what that source is, and in very practical terms how to recognize it and break free of those repetitive patterns when they are happening. And, we will also have a helpful hint or two for those of us in relationships with children from past relationships. Today’s guest is Dr. Sue Johnson, renowned psychologist, researcher, teacher, and author of the book “Hold Me Tight- Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love”. She is a leading innovator in the field of couple’s therapy, and the primary developer of Emotionally Focused Couple’s Therapy (EFT), which has demonstrated effectiveness in over 25 years of peer reviewed clinical research. Get ready to learn even more how to apply attachment theory to your life in a way that will help you feel more grounded and secure in your relationship, and better able to take on the world! In this episode, Dr. Sue Johnson and I explore the following: Romantic love is an ancient wired in survival code- More and more research, and more and more couples, are helping to crack the code of love! We now know that you must go towards the emotions in order to understand the who, whys, hows, and whats of romantic love. Adult bonding and all the emotions involved in this is the key. So much of previous couple’s therapy and relationship advice has focused on skill acquisition and controlling cognitive thinking, but as most of us have experienced, skills usually go out the window in the face of enormously powerful emotions. Emotions are not byproducts of interactions, rather they are the music of the dance. Emotions organize our interactions. When you are lost, confused, stuck, remember Sue Johnson’s exclamation as she really looked into the research: “Oh my! This is ALL about attachment bonds!” And it is. Your mammalian brain is wired to perceive relationship threats as a matter of life or death, because in many ways they are. They key question in love from an attachment point of you is: Are you there for me? Can I rely on you to be there? Will you come when I call? A.R.E: Is there someone on this planet that you matter to so much to that they will be available, responsive, and engaged? Aka, A.R.E. If you have ever been surprised by the intensity of your emotional reactions in your relationship (sadness,  anger, devastation, the list goes on), think about it in relation to attachment and the core need we each have to trust that your partner will be there. A vision for what is actually possible in your relationship: From last 25 years of research, and from what couples share, we know that you CAN learn to understand this dance called love. Even if you have had negative relationships, and even if you are in a distressed relationship right now where you are actively hurting each other, you CAN learn to see patterns, the way you move with your partner, the way you trigger each other, step on each others feet, and push each other off balance. You can learn to help each other in moments of emotional disconnection when your brain freaks out because it says “I am all alone”. You can help learn to balance each other and create a secure base. You can look and say “Hey! We are caught in that thing again, where I can’t seem to connect with you and I get upset and so I start poking you so that you will turn towards me, but you feel that I am just trying to hurt you and that makes you run away, so...shall we not do that thing and sit and have tea instead?!” Every relationship has that thing, that pattern, argument, stuckness that you find yourself up against over and over again. Get creative and make names for it! Our spiral, the nothing, the tornado… Make it so that you you guys can recognize ways emotional disconnection manifests in your relationship (so you can help each other out of it!). A secure bond is the way we are meant to be! A secure bond is predictive of every kind of mental health, growth, and good mental processing you can imagine. We are born longing for this connection with a few loving others, and when you are in a secure place it is as if your whole system becomes available for collaboration. Without it our system becomes compromised. If you are spending 75% of your energy trying to prove to others that you're okay, worrying if other people will accept you, feeling alone, trying to persuade yourself that you don't need other people, or actually trying to please other people, then obviously it will cripple your growth and your ability to deal with stress. Homo Vinculums- Somehow in the 21st century we have forgotten just how important secure bonding is. We are homo vinculum- the one who bonds. We are social attaching bonding animals and our whole nervous system is wired for that! Understand your own homo vinculum-ness and you will understand why it is so natural to be terrified of rejection and abandonment. In fact, our brains respond to rejection in the exact same location, and in the exact same way as it processes physical pain. Hold me tight- We are social interpersonal beings that are designed to grow each other. Resilience comes from the ability to reach out when the dragon comes and hold hands with another human being. The best strategy for dealing with our vulnerableness is to ask for support, take in support, and turn to other people. This is especially true in our relationships! There are ways to share vulnerability and enter into emotions together in a way that pulls your partner towards you and leads to secure bonding. Remember that our partners can do things that no therapist can do, and that our intimate relationships are the most natural and potent places for growth. While there is always inner work that must be done (addressing triggers, looking at patterns, exploring wounds), it is in the safety and love from another that you can make sense of your emotions, learn to stay balanced, and learn to deal with panic. Demon dialogues- Demon dialogues are those negative patterns and traps oh-so-common in our relationships. Here are three categories: Find the bad guy- This is an attack attack pattern where both of you are pointing fingers, placing blame, and saying “this is your fault not mine”. You are giving the message that you would be “better even if I am by myself’ which is often not the case. Protest Polka- This is the most popular demon dialogue and is also known as demand/withdraw. It occurs when one of you is searching for connection and you begin to demand it. The demander pokes and pokes their partner to get a response, and the other partner begins to withdraw more and more, feeling like the more they get poked the more they want to run. This creates increased distance, tension, and dissonance. Freeze and Flee- This is a last resort/last ditch effort kind of pattern. It occurs when the couple becomes burnt out after hundreds of protest polka and find the bad guy interactions. It occurs when there is no clear solution and no other way to reconnect. Both partners become withdrawn and the relationship becomes a desert.     Invite yourself to think about your own relationships- Do any of these dialogues seem familiar? What patterns do you notice? Even the healthiest relationships have interactions like these, however because there are loads of other loving interactions mixed in, the ‘bad ones’ don’t become the central feature- and you are able to find ways to turn towards each other and reconnect. When you look closely together at your demon dialogues you will find the source-- either one or both of you are triggered and a raw spot has been exposed- you experienced a disconnection from your partner and you entered these dialogues in an effort, albeit ineffective, to repair connection. Revisit a rocky moment at a later point through the lens of attachment to better process and get to the source of your arguments. Although it may seem that couples fight about dishes, laundry, ex’s, schedules...underneath all arguments is the essential question “are you there for me?” Once you can understand how the fear of rejection and abandonment is a natural fear, you will be able to identify where you get stuck and will find productive ways to deal with moments of disconnection. Talking about your fears and vulnerability in a clear way will get you both out of that stuck place where you quickly become polarized and dangerous to each other. Deep in our bones we know this bonding dance. Even if you did not have secure attachments in childhood, we each have a deep instinctive propensity for bonding. You do know what you need to feel secure - you just need to be willing (and feel safe enough) to take the risk and as for what you know you need. Don’t make your partner guess! You can say things as direct as “Right now, babe, I need you to reassure me that you still want me!”, “Hey! Sweets! Can you please take a break and rub my feet for a few minutes I need some closeness if you are available”, “I need for you to tell me that I matter to you, and if you are too busy right now, then tell me will will do something together on the weekend”, or “This is scary for me to tell you, but I really do need you to reel me in right now because I am stuck behind this wall I built and I can’t quite get out”. People move into a new dance bit by bit when they feel confident enough to express and address their emotions. Is a secure connection the enemy of eroticism? Many have long questioned whether long term relationship stability leads to a lack of eroticism, and some have even stated it as a truth, but good news is that all the evidence points in the opposite direction! Evidence shows that a secure emotional connection helps you engage, explore, and become attuned to your partner, which is essential for intimacy. Passion is the longing for emotional connection twinned with the ability to attune and move together in synchrony and then go into erotic play. Extra tip: If you are in a blended family in which your relationship involves children from previous relationships, EFT is perfect for you too! At this point you may be overwhelmed by trying to balance the responsibility you feel for your children and their ruptured attachment, and the energy you need and want to put into growing your new relationship. You may be feeling like it can’t all happen at once! This is true, but the more you can work on your relationship the more you can turn as a team and parent (what are now) YOUR children in a way that makes them feel safe and connected. Focus in on the emotional realm of your partnership, learn together about the messages you send each other and why. You and your children will benefit from your increased sense of security and attunement. Resources For more research and videos on the science of bonding see Sue’s website: www.drsuejohnson.com Read her book: Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love The Still Face Experiment: Dr. Edward Tronick www.neilsattin.com/sue Visit to download the show guide, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the show guide to this episode with Sue Johnson - and to qualify to win a free copy of “Hold Me Tight”. Our Relationship Alive Community on Facebook Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

Doctors Brian and Giuseppe continue their talk with Dr. Sue Johnson, author of "Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love".  How can couples overcome relationship problems? Can a relationship be saved after an affair? What should you look for in a mate? Find out what Dr. Johnson thinks this week! For family and psychology news, visit familyanatomy.com.

Doctors Brian and Giuseppe speak with Dr. Sue Johnson, author of "Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love". What is the "science of love"? Should people look for a soul-mate? Can every relationship be saved? Find out what Dr. Johnson thinks this week! For family and psychology news, visit familyanatomy.com.