Podcasts about Lenny

Jason Lemkin is the founder of SaaStr, the world's largest community for software founders, and a veteran SaaS investor who has deployed over $200 million into B2B startups. After his last salesperson quit, Jason made a radical decision: replace his entire go-to-market team with AI agents. What started as an experiment has transformed into a new operating model, where 20 AI agents managed by just 1.2 humans now do the work previously handled by a team of 10 SDRs and AEs. In this conversation, Jason shares his hands-on experience implementing AI to run his sales org, including what works, what doesn't, and how the GTM landscape is quickly being transformed.We discuss:1. How AI is fundamentally changing the sales function2. Why most SDRs and BDRs will be “extinct” within a year3. What Jason is observing across his portfolio about AI adoption in GTM4. How to become “hyper-employable” in the age of AI5. The specific AI tools and tactics he's using that have been working best6. Practical frameworks for integrating AI into your sales motion without losing what works7. Jason's 2026 predictions on where SaaS and GTM are heading next—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchersVercel—Your collaborative AI assistant to design, iterate, and scale full-stack applications for the webDatadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/we-replaced-our-sales-team-with-20-ai-agents—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/182902716/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Jason Lemkin:• X: https://x.com/jasonlk• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonmlemkin• Website: https://www.saastr.com• Substack: https://substack.com/@cloud—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Jason Lemkin(04:36) What SaaStr does(07:13) AI's impact on sales teams(10:11) How SaaStr's AI agents work and their performance(14:18) How go-to-market is changing in the AI era(19:19) The future of SDRs, BDRs, and AEs in sales(22:03) Why leadership roles are safe(23:43) How to be in the 20% who thrive in the AI sales future(28:40) Why you shouldn't build your own AI tools(30:10) Specific AI agents and their applications(36:40) Challenges and learnings in AI deployment(42:11) Making AI-generated emails good (not just acceptable)(47:31) When humans still beat AI in sales(52:39) An overview of SaaStr's org(53:50) The role of human oversight in AI operations(58:37) Advice for salespeople and founders in the AI era(01:05:40) Forward-deployed engineers(01:08:08) What's changing and what's staying the same in sales(01:16:21) Why AI is creating more work, not less(01:19:32) Why Jason says these are magical times(01:25:25) The "incognito mode test" for finding AI opportunities(01:27:19) The impact of AI on jobs(01:30:18) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org• SaaStr Annual: https://www.saastrannual.com• Delphi: https://www.delphi.ai/saastr/talk• Amelia Lerutte on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amelialerutte/• Vercel: https://vercel.com• What world-class GTM looks like in 2026 | Jeanne DeWitt Grosser (Vercel, Stripe, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-the-best-gtm-teams-do-differently• Everyone's an engineer now: Inside v0's mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Replit: https://replit.com• Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad• ElevenLabs: https://elevenlabs.io• The exact AI playbook (using MCPs, custom GPTs, Granola) that saved ElevenLabs $100k+ and helps them ship daily | Luke Harries (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ai-marketing-stack• Bolt: https://bolt.new• Lovable: https://lovable.dev• Harvey: https://www.harvey.ai• Samsara: https://www.samsara.com/products/platform/ai-samsara-intelligence• UiPath: https://www.uipath.com• Denise Dresser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisedresser• Agentforce: https://www.salesforce.com/form/agentforce• SaaStr's AI Agent Playbook: https://saastr.ai/agents• Brian Halligan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianhalligan• Brian Halligan's AI: https://www.delphi.ai/minds/bhalligan• Sierra: https://sierra.ai• Fin: https://fin.ai• Deccan: https://www.deccan.ai• Artisan: https://www.artisan.co• Qualified: https://www.qualified.com• Claude: https://claude.ai• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com• Gamma: https://gamma.app• Sam Blond on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-blond-791026b• Brex: https://www.brex.com• Outreach: https://www.outreach.io• Gong: https://www.gong.io• Salesloft: https://www.salesloft.com• Mixmax: https://www.mixmax.com• “Sell the alpha, not the feature”: The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-enterprise-sales-playbook-1m-to-10m-arr• Clay: https://www.clay.com• Owner: https://www.owner.com• Momentum: https://www.momentum.io• Attention: https://www.attention.com• Granola: https://www.granola.ai• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com• Databricks: https://www.databricks.com• Garry Tan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrytan• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• The new AI growth playbook for 2026: How Lovable hit $200M ARR in one year | Elena Verna (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna• Pluribus on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/pluribus/umc.cmc.37axgovs2yozlyh3c2cmwzlza• Sora: https://openai.com/sora• Reve: https://app.reve.com• Everything That Breaks on the Way to $1B ARR, with Mailchimp Co-Founder Ben Chestnut: https://www.saastr.com/everything-that-breaks-on-the-way-to-1b-arr-with-mailchimp-co-founder-ben-chestnut/• The Revenue Playbook: Rippling's Top 3 Growth Tactics at Scale, with Rippling CRO Matt Plank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3eYtzBpjRw• 10 contrarian leadership truths every leader needs to hear | Matt MacInnis (Rippling): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Episode 403. In this episode of The Lenny Reed Pod, Lenny break down what it really takes to become a better in 2026-mentally,physically, and financially. The isn't motivation talk. This is a reality check. We talk about cutting distractions, mastering your emotions,rebuilding confidence after disrespec and detrayal, and putting your health, money, and purpose back to the driver's seat. If you've been giving too much energy to the wrong people, making excuses, or playing small, this episode is your wake-up call. Sponsor: 2026 Stack, Survive, and Speak: The All-In-One Power Playbook Bundle ============= Do you want to collaborate with me on my 2026 Digitals Hustler's ebook Bundle? You get 50% of each ebook you sell. Clink the link in the show note to get started. Send me your email to get started

Get Somehow UN-Related! It's our subscriber-only show with Glenn and Dave! Get it here, on Apple Podcasts or go to Nearly.com.au This episode! Who knows?! Could a match have cured childhood polio so an early internet pioneer lived to develop the technology? Of course not, for the simple reason that Sam would not give it away in the episode descriptions. It's probably deeper than that! Sam's an old soul. Thinking Music Macintosh 1984 Commercial Link to the answer No one link, but this link gives an insight (the answer is also in the episode) Support the podcasts you enjoy - check out Lenny.fm More about the show - www.nearly.com.au/somehow-related-podcast-with-glenn-robbins-and-dave-oneil/ Somehow Related is produced by Nearly Media. Original theme music by Kit Warhurst. Artwork created by Stacy Gougoulis. Looking for another podcast? The Debrief with Dave O'Neil - Dave's other podcasts with comedians after gigs. The Junkees with Dave O'Neil & Kitty Flanagan - The sweet and salty roundabout! Junk food abounds!Support on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Most candidates treat recruiter calls like a box-checking step. But the candidates who consistently land offers treat recruiters like strategic partners - and use them to get real leverage throughout the process.In this episode of Supra Insider, Marc Baselga and Ben Erez sit down with our repeat guest, Anneli Scopazzi (Boulevard Talent; former recruiting leader across Palantir, Figma, and Notion) to break down what recruiters are actually incentivized by, what they're looking for in the recruiter screen, and how candidates can use recruiters to prepare more intelligently and avoid preventable missteps.They cover the difference between internal recruiters and agency recruiters, what gets candidates filtered out early, how to ask for “prep” without sounding insecure, what to do when a company refuses to share details, and how to handle compensation conversations without accidentally anchoring yourself into a worse outcome. They also discuss when to save sensitive questions for the offer stage, and how recruiters influence the process behind the scenes (feedback, debriefs, and closing).If you're interviewing in today's competitive market, especially for product roles, this episode gives you a tactical playbook for turning recruiters into an advantage instead of an afterthought. All episodes of the podcast are also available on Spotify, Apple and YouTube.New to the pod? Subscribe below to get the next episode in your inbox

Tara Lenny returns solo to talk about her first year in professional wrestling.

Matt MacInnis is the chief product officer and former longtime COO at Rippling, a unified workforce management platform valued at over $16 billion.We discuss:1. Why “extraordinary results demand extraordinary efforts”2. Why you should deliberately understaff projects, and how to know when you've gone too far3. Matt's transition from COO to CPO and what surprised him about leading product4. The “high alpha, low beta” framework for evaluating people, processes, and products5. When founders should quit their startups (hint: much earlier than VCs want you to)6. How to fight entropy in your organization through relentless energy and intensity—Brought to you by:Google Gemini—Your everyday AI assistant: https://ai.dev/Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform: https://www.datadoghq.com/lennyGoFundMe Giving Funds—Make year-end giving easy: http://gofundme.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181916584/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Matt MacInnis:• X: https://x.com/stanine• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/macinnis• Email: macinnis@rippling.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Matt MacInnis and Rippling(04:38) The importance of extraordinary efforts(08:37) The challenges and rewards of relentless effort(10:11) Your job as a leader is to preserve intensity(12:39) You learn far more from success than failure(16:34) Transitioning to chief product officer(19:54) Fixing product management at Rippling(25:27) The “high alpha, low beta” framework(28:55) The PQL framework(35:16) Hiring frameworks and team dynamics(36:52) A helpful interview tactic(40:00) Leading as a COO vs. a CPO(42:34) The reality of product-market fit(46:38) The problem with venture capital(49:29) When founders should quit their startups(41:48) The immutable market(54:13) Lessons from Notion's success(57:43) Investment strategies and narrative violations(01:00:42) The power of compounding, power law, and entropy(01:07:02) Maintaining intensity and fighting entropy(01:11:33) The importance of feedback and escalations(01:14:31) Rippling's vision and success(01:17:48) AI's impact on SaaS and business software(01:23:42) AI corner(01:26:23) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com• Sunil Raman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilraman• Dan Gill on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dangill• Carvana: https://www.carvana.com• Brian Chesky's new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach• Parker Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/parkerconrad• Inkling: https://www.inkling.com• Akshay Kothari on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akothari• Notion: https://www.notion.com• Conway's law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law• Seeking Alpha: https://seekingalpha.com• Dennis Rodman's website: https://dennisrodman.com• Dancing pickle emoji: https://slackmojis.com/emojis/456-dancing_pickle• Pickle Rick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_Rick• SPOTAK: The Six Traits I Look for When I'm Hiring: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spotak-six-traits-look-m-181335267.html• Geoff Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geofflewis1• Zenefits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriNet_Zenefits• New banking records prove Deel paid thief who stole trade secrets from Rippling: https://www.rippling.com/blog/new-banking-records-prove-deel-paid-thief-who-stole-trade-secrets-from-rippling• Workday: https://www.workday.com• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com• Wall-E: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0910970• Conviction: https://www.conviction.com• Mike Vernal on X: https://x.com/mvernal• Sarah Guo on X: https://x.com/saranormous• No Priors: https://linktr.ee/nopriors• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com• ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com• Claude: https://claude.ai• Bryan Schreier on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanschreier• Heated Rivalry on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/heated-rivalry/50cd4e99-04ee-427b-a3b4-da721ed05d9c• Fellow coffee maker: https://fellowproducts.com/products/aiden-precision-coffee-maker—Recommended books:• Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space: https://www.amazon.com/Pale-Blue-Dot-Vision-Future/dp/0345376595• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557• The Effective Executive: The Definitive Guide to Getting the Right Things Done: https://www.amazon.com/Effective-Executive-Definitive-Harperbusiness-Essentials/dp/0060833459—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Try our FREE burnout quiz.Grab your burnout workbook HERE. What is it like to be a narcissist? And how can. Narcissist do good in the world?This week we are continuing our conversation with 89-year-old keynote speaker, author, and Gestalt therapist Lenny Kravich.After an abusive upbringing, Lenny realised a long time ago that he might be a narcissist, and that realisation shaped an entire journey of discovery and development that he then went on.In this episode he shares:- What the word narcissist means for him and what his experience with it is- How he made a decision that changed the way he viewed and interacted with people- What happens when he lets himself down- How he came to write his book- What impact did writing the book have on him- The lesson he still has to learn- Key Quotes“I am very manipulative about how I get attention.” “It screwed up a lot of things in my life.”More about LennyFind his website here.You can get involved with the podcast online On facebook in our community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/challengesthatchangeusOr on Instagram: @challengesthatchangeusIf you want to contact the podcast, email us here: support@challengesthatchangeus.comOr check out our website: www.Challengesthatchangeus.com If you want to find out more about what Ali does, check out her business via the website:http://www.trialtitudeperformance.com.au Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dr. Lenny and Larry Kutzler discuss who is your lifeline? One of the ways our enemy, the Devil, seduces us is by his wearing us down with feelings of failure. He is constantly telling us we are not worthy nor are we qualified. How do you combat this insidious bombardment of you're no good? For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength. (Philippians 4:13)Lenny's Corner with Dr. Lennard StoeklenIn your corner of the world, there are many voices all trying to gain your attention. In our corner we have Lenny, and Lenny is about to tell you the truth. This is Lenny's Corner, a podcast perspective you can trust, and an honest, truthful approach to what really matters in life. Visit Lenny's Corner

Från 2018. En dokumentär om knark, våld och machokultur i det som på 90-talet var Sveriges farligaste stad. Lyssna på alla avsnitt i Sveriges Radios app. I slutet av 90-talet är Dalarna på löpsedlar över hela landet. Flera attentat riktade mot polisen visar sig vara utförda av en tungt beväpnad ungdomsliga. Här berättar flera av Familjen-medlemmarna för första gången om tiden när de satte skräck i Borlänge.Eddy och Lenny blir bästisar i Borlänges skejtpark när de går i mellanstadiet. Några år senare tar Eddy, med snaggat hår och bling i vänster öra, på sig en rånarluva. Med ett hagelgevär i handen går han in i matbutiken i sitt kvarter.Serien är ursprungligen gjord i fem delar, men publiceras här som ett superavsnitt, 130 min långt.En dokumentär av: Sigge Dabrowski.Producent: Rosa Fernandez.Dokumentären publicerades första gången 2018.

Carlata from Brooklyn, NY, called Curtis to praise him for staying in the mayoral race, saying the race would have turned out differently had he dropped out. Lenny from Staten Island, NY, called to share that his son was recently promoted in the military and to express his gratitude to Curtis for speaking so highly of servicemen.

Carlata from Brooklyn, NY, called Curtis to praise him for staying in the mayoral race, saying the race would have turned out differently had he dropped out. Lenny from Staten Island, NY, called to share that his son was recently promoted in the military and to express his gratitude to Curtis for speaking so highly of servicemen. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this Parshas Vayigash review, Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe focuses on the climactic moment when Yosef reveals himself to his brothers: “I am Yosef—is my father still alive?”—a revelation so shocking the brothers are speechless, realizing the entire 22-year saga (their sale of Yosef, his suffering, and rise to power) was Hashem's precise plan. The brothers' terror mirrors the future Day of Judgment, when Hashem will reveal “I am Hashem” and everything in history will suddenly make perfect sense.Rabbi Wolbe emphasizes the wake-up call: we sell our potential for fleeting gains (like the brothers sold Yosef for shoes' worth of silver), wasting time on distractions (social media, materialism) instead of prioritizing Torah, mitzvot, family, and spiritual growth. He urges laser focus on what truly matters—relationships, legacy, and eternal investment—warning that Hashem will hold us accountable not against others, but on whether we maximized our unique selves. The episode closes with a call to realign priorities daily through prayer and conscious living._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 23, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 24, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Vayigash, #YosefReveals, #IAmYosef, #HashemsPlan, #Priorities, #WakeUpCall, #SpiritualGrowth ★ Support this podcast ★

In this Parshas Vayigash review, Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe focuses on the climactic moment when Yosef reveals himself to his brothers: “I am Yosef—is my father still alive?”—a revelation so shocking the brothers are speechless, realizing the entire 22-year saga (their sale of Yosef, his suffering, and rise to power) was Hashem's precise plan. The brothers' terror mirrors the future Day of Judgment, when Hashem will reveal “I am Hashem” and everything in history will suddenly make perfect sense.Rabbi Wolbe emphasizes the wake-up call: we sell our potential for fleeting gains (like the brothers sold Yosef for shoes' worth of silver), wasting time on distractions (social media, materialism) instead of prioritizing Torah, mitzvot, family, and spiritual growth. He urges laser focus on what truly matters—relationships, legacy, and eternal investment—warning that Hashem will hold us accountable not against others, but on whether we maximized our unique selves. The episode closes with a call to realign priorities daily through prayer and conscious living._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 23, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 24, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Vayigash, #YosefReveals, #IAmYosef, #HashemsPlan, #Priorities, #WakeUpCall, #SpiritualGrowth ★ Support this podcast ★

Dive into The Other Side of Midnight with Lionel, where the host strips away the "casino" lights of modern news to reveal the gritty legal and constitutional realities facing the nation. Lionel breaks down why bombing boats in sovereign waters is an act of war under international law, navigates the fine line between religious freedom and administrative regulations regarding IDs and noise ordinances, and offers a searing critique of political appointments based on aesthetics over competence.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dive into The Other Side of Midnight with Lionel, where the host strips away the "casino" lights of modern news to reveal the gritty legal and constitutional realities facing the nation. Lionel breaks down why bombing boats in sovereign waters is an act of war under international law, navigates the fine line between religious freedom and administrative regulations regarding IDs and noise ordinances, and offers a searing critique of political appointments based on aesthetics over competence.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this gripping episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with Robert “Bob” Cooley, the Chicago lawyer whose extraordinary journey took him from deep inside the Outfit's criminal operations to becoming one of the federal government's most valuable witnesses against organized crime. Cooley pulls back the curtain on the hidden machinery of Chicago's underworld, describing how corruption, bribery, and violence shaped the Chicago Outfit's power in the 1970s and beyond. As a lawyer, gambler, and trusted insider, Cooley saw firsthand how mob influence tilted the scales of justice—often in open daylight. Inside the “Chicago Method” of Courtroom Corruption Cooley explains the notorious system of judicial bribery he once helped facilitate—what he calls the “Chicago Method.” He walks listeners through: How defense attorneys worked directly with Outfit associates to buy favorable rulings. The process of approaching and bribing judges. Why weak forensic standards of the era made witness discrediting the key mob strategy. His personal involvement in the infamous Harry Aleman murder case, where clear guilt was erased by corruption. Life in the Outfit: Gambling, Debt, and Mob Justice Cooley recounts his early days gambling with Chicago Outfit associates, including Marco D'Amico, Jackie Cerrone, and John DeFranzo. Notable stories include: The violent implications of unpaid gambling debts in mob circles. Tense interactions with bookmaker Hal Smith and the chaotic fallout of a bounced check involving mobster Eddie Corrado. How D'Amico often stepped in—sometimes with intimidation—to shield Cooley from harm. These stories reflect the daily volatility of life inside the Outfit, where money, fear, and loyalty intersect constantly. Bob Cooley has a great book titled When Corruption Was King where he goes into even greater detail and has many more stories from his life inside the Chicago Mob. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. 0:06 Introduction to Bob Cooley 1:32 Life as an Outfit Gambler 2:00 My Relationship with Marco D’Amico 10:40 The Story of Hal Smith 11:05 A Dangerous Encounter 20:21 Meeting Sally D 22:23 A Contract on My Life 22:37 The Harry Alleman Case 34:47 Inside the Courtroom 51:08 The Verdict 52:26 Warning the Judge 53:49 The Case Against the Policewoman 58:36 Navigating the Legal Maze 1:08:14 The Outcome and Its Consequences 1:11:39 The Decision to Flip 1:24:38 A Father’s Influence 1:33:57 The Corruption Revealed 1:50:12 Political Connections 2:02:07 The Setup for Robbery 2:20:29 Consequences of Loyalty transcript [0:00] Hey, guys, my guest today is a former Chicago outfit associate named Robert Bob Cooley. He has a book out there titled When Corruption Was King. I highly recommend you get it if you want to look inside the Chicago outfit of the 1970s. Now, Bob’s going to tell us about his life as an outfit gambler, lawyer, and I use payoff to judges to get many, many not guilty verdicts. Now, I always call this the Chicago method. This happened for, I know, for Harry Ailman, a case we’re going to talk about, Tony Spolatro got one of these not-guilties. Now, the outfit member associate who is blessed to get this fix put in for him may be charged with a crime, even up to murder. And he gets a lawyer, a connected lawyer, and they’ll demand a bench trial. That means that only a judge makes the decision. A lawyer, like my guest, who worked with a political fixer named Pat Marcy. [0:53] They’ll work together and they’ll get a friendly judge assigned to that case and then they’ll bribe the judge. And all that judge needs is some kind of alibi witnesses and any kind of information to discredit any prosecution witnesses. Now, this is back in the olden days before you had all this DNA and all that kind of thing. So physical evidence was not really a part of it. Mainly, it was from witnesses. And they just have to discredit any prosecution witness. Then the judge can say, well, state hadn’t really proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt and issue a not guilty verdict and walk away. Now, our guest, Bob Cooley, is going to take us inside this world. [1:29] And it’s a world of beatings, murders, bribes, and other kinds of plots. He was a member of the Elmwood Park crew. He was a big gambler. He was a big loan shark. And he worked for a guy named Marco D’Amico, who was their gambling boss and loan shark in that crew. Among other bosses in this powerful crew were Jackie Cerrone, who will go on and become the underboss and eventually the boss for a short [1:55] period of time. and John no-nose DeFranzo, who will also go on to become the boss eventually. What was your relationship with Marco D’Amico? I talked about when I first came into the 18th district, when I came into work there, and they put me back in uniform, the first person I met was Rick Borelli. Rick Borelli, he was Marco’s cousin. [2:23] When I started gambling right away with Rick, within a couple of days, I’m being his face, and I’m calling and making bets. There was a restaurant across the street where every Wednesday and sometimes a couple days a week, I would meet with Ricky. And one of the first people he brought in there was Marco. Was Marco. And Marco would usually be with a person or two. And I thought they were just bookmakers. [2:55] And I started being friendly with him, meeting him there. Then I started having card games Up in my apartment And, Because now I’m making, in the very beginning, I’m making first $100 extra a week. And within a couple of weeks, I’m making $500, $600 extra a week. And within about a month, I’m making $1,000, sometimes more than that. So now I’m having card games, relatively big card games, because I’ve got a bankroll. I’ve got probably about $5,000, $6,000, which seemed like a lot of money to me. Initially uh and after a while that was a daily that was a daily deal but uh so we we started having card games up there and then we started socializing we started now he’d be at these nightclubs all the time when when i’d go to make my payoffs he was part of the main group there he was one of the call he was right he was right under jack right under at that time originally Jackie Cerrone, and then he was right under Johnny DeFranco. [4:07] But he was… And we became real good friends. We would double date and we spent a lot of time together. And we had these big card games. And that’s when I realized how powerful these people were. Because after one of the card games, there was somebody that was brought in, a guy named Corrado. I’m pretty sure his name was I can’t think of his first name, but Corrado was this person that somebody brought into the game. And after we finished playing cards, and I won all the time. I mean, I was a real good card player, and I wouldn’t drink. I’d supply liquor and food and everything, but I wouldn’t drink. And as the others drank, they were the same as at my office. After we finish up, this guy says, you want to play some? We can play maybe some gin. just human being. And he was there with another friend of his who just sat there and watched. So we played, not gin, but blackjack. We played and passed cards back and forth when you win. Then you’re the dealer and back and forth. And I lost, I think I lost about $4,000 or $13,000 to him. [5:26] I lost the cash that I had. I had cash about $5,000 or $6,000. And I gave him a check for the rest. You know, but everything I was doing was wrong, you know. Yeah, one of those nights. It’s in there. And it’s funny because you asked about Marco. [5:47] And I thought, you know, oh, well, and whatever. And I gave him a check. I said, no, it’s a good check. And it was. It was for my office. It was an office check that I gave him. And that next morning, I’m meeting with Ricky and with Marco at this restaurant across from the station before I go in and to work. And I said, son of a B. I said, you know, they had a bad night first ever. Marco wasn’t at that game, at that particular game. And what happened? I said, I blew about 12,000. Okay, but you? Wow. And I said, yeah, I said, one of the guys at the game played some, I played some blackjack with somebody. What was his name? Eddie, Eddie Corrado. Eddie Corrado. He said, that mother, he said, stop payment on the check. He said, stop payment on the check. He said, because it wasn’t nine o’clock. It was only like, you know, seven, you know, seven 30 or whatever. He said, and when he gets ahold of you, arrange to have him come to your house. Tell him you’ll have the money for him at your house. So that’s what I, that’s what I do. So I stopped payment on it probably about five after nine. I get a call from, from Mr. Corrado. You mother fucker. [7:17] I said, no, no. I said, there wasn’t enough money in the account. I said, I’m sorry. I said, all right, then I’ll be over. I said, no, no, no. I said, I’m in court right now. I said, I’m in court. I said, I’m going to be tied up all day. I’ll meet you at my place. I’ll meet you back there. Well, I’ll be there. You better have that. I want cash and you better have it. Okay. Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m at home. Marco comes in. And he was there with Tony and Tony was there and Ricky was there. And Ricky was there. And they come over a little ahead of time and he comes in. I live on the 27th floor. The doorbell rings. Up he comes with some big mustache. [8:00] I open the door. You better have the fucking money and whatever. And I try to look nervous. I try to look real nervous. and when you walk into my apartment you walk in and you see the kitchen right in front of you and to the left to the left you’ve got an area away and you’ve got the the kitchen wall blocking what’s behind it over there and these three guys are standing marco and you are standing right there alongside of it and and when he walks in behind me, He sees Marco and all but shit in his pants. When he sees Marco, he goes, and Marco, you motherfucker. And, you know, oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I didn’t know he was with you. He says, how much money you got me right now? And, you know, he says, pull your pockets out. He had about, he had about three or 4,000 with him. [9:02] And he says, you give him that. He says, you, he says, you, and he says, you give him that right now. And you apologize to him. Oh, and he says, he says, and I may give you a number. I want you to call. He says, we can put you to work. Apparently this guy had done the same thing to them a few years before and got the beating of his life somebody brought him into one of their card games, did he have a technique a cheating technique or had some marked cards no it was a card mechanic he could play games with cards they call him a mechanic and, in fact the guy was great at it because he had his own plane and everything else. But again, he had moved from Chicago and had just come back in the area. And they mounted. And so anyhow, he leaves. And he leaves then, and Marco took the money. Marco took the money. Marco took the money. Typical Bob guy, man. [10:19] And I says, what about the cash I lost to him? He says, well, you lost that. He says, you lost that. That’s when I realized how powerful. That’s when I realized how powerful that [10:35] he was part of the mob, not only a part of it, but one of the operational. Yeah, important part of it. That brings to mind another unbelievable situation that occurred. [10:49] The, uh, this is probably the, we’ll know the year by when it happened. There was a bookmaker named Hal Smith. Oh yeah. I remember that name. He got, tell us about Hal Smith. [11:05] Well, Hal Smith was a, he was a big guy too. A real, a real big guy. I met him on Rush street. He knew I was a gambler. He knew that I was a big gambler and I started gambling with him. Thank you. And I was with him probably for about maybe five or six months. And I’d win with him. I’d lose with him. And he would take big places. He would take $5,000 a game for me. And as they say, so the numbers were big. At the end of the week, we were sometimes $60,000, $70,000. [11:42] They were big numbers back and forth. And he was always good for the money. I was always good for the money. And one particular week, it was about $30,000. And I was waiting for money. Somebody else was supposed to give me even more than that. And the person put me off. And it was a good friend of mine. And I knew the money would be there. But a lot of times, these guys are going to collect it at a certain time. And then they’re expecting to give it to somebody else. Well, he was short. So I said, look, I don’t have it right now, but I’ll have it tomorrow, I said, because I’m meeting somebody. Well, okay, it better be there. [12:31] And look, it’ll be there, okay? Not a problem. So the next day, the person I’m supposed to get it from says, I’ll have it in a couple of hours. I don’t have it right now, but I’ll have it by late this afternoon. And I’m in my office when Hale Smith calls me and I said, I’ll have it a little bit later. And he slams the phone bell. I’m downstairs in Counselor’s Row. In fact, I’m meeting with Butchie and Harry. We’re in a booth talking about something. They had just sent me some business or whatever, but I’m talking about something. And George, the owner of the restaurant, comes over and he says, somebody is asking who you are and they want to talk to you. And they point out this guy. It was a guy I had seen before, because a lot of times at two in the morning, I would go down on West Street, and they had entertainment upstairs. And there was this big English guy. He was an English guy, as you could tell by his accent, a real loud guy. And when I walk up to talk to him, and he’s talking loud enough so people can hear him, and he says, you better have that. I’m here for it. You better have that. You better have that money. [13:51] Bob Hellsmith sent me, you get the money and you better have that money or there’s going to be a problem or whatever. And I said, well, the money will be there, but people can hear what this guy, this guy talking that shit. And he leaves. And he leaves. He’s going to call me back. And he leaves. I said, I’m busy right now. I says, give me a call back when I’m in the office and I’ll meet with you. So Butch, he goes, what was that all about? And I said, you know, it’s somebody I owe some money to. Well, who is he? Who is he with? I said, Harold Smith. And he said, who’s Harold Smith? You don’t pay him anything. He said, you don’t pay him anything. And he calls, when he calls back, he says, you will arrange to meet him. And I said, you know, I said, well, where? [14:44] And they knew where I lived. They’d been to my place at that time. I’m living in Newberry Plaza and they said, there’s a, there’s a Walgreens drugstore in Chicago Avenue. Tell him you’ll meet him there at Walgreens, and we’ll take it. And he says, and we’ll take it from there. When he does call me, I said, look, I said, I’ll meet you tomorrow morning for sure at Walgreens. I’ll have the cash. I said, I’ll have the cash, and I’ll have all of it. I said, but, you know, I’m tied up on some things. I said, I’ll go to my own bank when I’m finished here and whatever, and I’ll see you tomorrow morning for sure at 9 o’clock tomorrow morning. Okay. I sit down with them and they just said, I said, they said, go there and go meet them. And we’ll take care of it. The Walgreens is a store right in the corner of Michigan Avenue and Chicago Avenue, south side of the street. And it’s all windows. Huge windows here. Huge windows here. And a bus stop, a bus stop over here. When I get there, I park in the bus stop and I’m looking to my right and here he is sitting in a booth by himself, right by the window. And I look around and I don’t see anybody. I mean, with a lot of people, I don’t see Butchie. [16:06] Uh or red or anybody around but i i go in there anyhow and uh sit down and i uh sit down in the booth across from him and he’s eating breakfast he’s got some food in front of him and uh the girl comes by right away the girl comes by and i says you know just get me a coke and and he says have you got the money and i said yes and why i got i got a lot i got a lot of money in my pocket but not the, whatever it was he wanted, not the 27 or 28,000. There’s nobody there. And, uh, so we’re talking for no more than about two or three minutes. They had a telephone on the counter. I hear the phone ring and the waitress, the waitress is on the phone. And then she comes walking over and she says, it’s a call for you. And, and when I go get in the phone, I woke up and there’s a phone booth there. And here’s Butchie in the phone booth. And he’s there with a couple of other people. I hang the phone up. I walk over and I had my appointment booked. And I walk over and I just pick up the book. And as I’m walking out there, walking in, we pass each other. And so now when I get in my car and he’s looking at me in my car and right next to him is Butchie. And across from him was a red old male and Fat Herbie. [17:34] Herbie Blitzstein? Herbie Blitzstein? No, it wasn’t Herbie. This is another one. That’s one thing of Herbie. We called Herbie Fat. It was Fat Herbie. And the third guy is like sitting facing him. This is like, that weighs about 300 pounds. Oh, Sarno. Make Mike Sarno. Mike Sarno. That was it. And that’s, that’s, that’s who it was. You know, and I, I drive off, go to my office and go about my business. I get a call later that day from, uh, Hale Smith. Where’s my money? Where’s my money? I said, I gave it to your guy. You what? I gave it to him. I met him at nine o’clock this morning and I gave him the money. You did. And I said, yeah. Um, okay. And he hangs, and he hangs up. I don’t hear anything for a while. I never saw him again. I saw Hale a couple of times because he was always in one of the other restaurants. I lived in Newberry right across from there, but he never talked to me. I never talked to him, never said anything. It was about maybe it had to be a good couple of months later, When I read about Hale, Hale’s no longer with us. [18:52] That’s obviously how they found out about him. I never saw the other guy again. I’m hoping they didn’t kill him, but I’m assuming that’s what probably happened to him. In a public place like that, they probably just scared him off. He probably said, you know, I’m way over my head. I’m out of here. [19:15] They didn’t kill him in the public place he wouldn’t have been in the newspapers my little thought is like with the three guys they took him for a ride, I don’t know they just told him to leave town and he realized what it was and he did Hal didn’t get a chance to leave town Hal had other problems if I remember right I’d have to look it back up but he had other problems with the outfit what I found out later what they had done, was they had gotten one of their guys connected with him to find out who his customers were. In other words, one of the other people that he didn’t realize, that Hale didn’t realize was with them, they got him connected with them where he’s the one who’s doing his collecting and finding out who the customers were because they wanted to get all his customers as well as his money. It turns out he was He was a huge bookmaker for years. That’s what happened to him. And they just took his book. Yeah, I remember something about that story because I killed him in his house, I believe. Yeah, Sally D. [20:22] Sally D, yeah. Sally D was one. When I first met Sally D, he was with Marco’s Fruit, too. [20:30] He owned a pizza place up on the north side, north shore, and I broke him. I was betting with him and beating him week after week. And one of the last times I played with him, he couldn’t come up with the money. It took him an extra couple of weeks to get the cash to pay me. But we were real close friends with him. He’s a bizarre character because he was a totally low level at that time. Yeah. When he then connected up with the Cicero crew, with Rocky and Felice, with Rocky and those people, he became a boss with them. It turns out it was after they killed Al Smith. He was part of all that. That’s Salih De Laurentiis. He’s supposed to be a boss. He moved on up after the Family Secrets trial. He didn’t go down with that, I believe, and he kind of moved on up after that. I don’t know what happened to him. What was so funny about that, when he would come into the club, Marco’s club, Bobby Abinati. [21:42] Who was strictly a very low-level player, although we indicted him with the Gambia star. He’s the one who set up the robbery. Would that have been great if that would have gone through? He’s the one who set up that robbery in Wisconsin. He’d be making fun of Salihide all the time. [22:03] When Salihide would come in, he would make fun of him and joke about him and talk about what a loser he was. This is when he’s a boss of that crew. I mean, just a strange, I mean, nobody talked to bosses like that, especially when, when you’re, when you’re what they call Bobby, you know, what was Marco’s nickname for Bobby Knucklehead? [22:23] That was his nickname, Knucklehead. Pat Marcy, uh, contacted me about, you know, handling me in the only own case. [22:32] I couldn’t have been happier because that was a short time after they put a contract on me. So now i realized if they’re going to be making money you know they finally stopped because for good six seven months when i when i came back to chicago uh i was checking under my car every day in case there was a bomb i moved i moved from uh from a place that i own in the suburbs into an apartment complex so i wouldn’t be living on the first floor yeah it’d be impossible to somebody to break into my, you know, took them thrashing into my place. I changed my whole life around in that sense. [23:10] And when I drove everywhere I went, you know, I would go on the highway and then jump over. I would do all, I wanted to make absolutes. Even though nobody came around, I wasn’t taking any chances for a long period of time. And that was too when it cost me a fortune because that’s when I stopped dealing with the bookmakers because I wasn’t going to be in a position where I had to go meet somebody at any time to collect my money and whatever. [23:39] So what had happened, though, was somebody came to see me. And when I was practicing, there’s a lot of things I wouldn’t do. I set my own rules. I would not get involved. After the Harry Alleman case, I never got involved anymore myself fixing certain cases. But even prior to that, I wouldn’t fix certain cases. I wouldn’t get involved in certain cases, especially involving the police, because my father was such a terrific policeman, and I felt I was too in a lot of sentences. I loved the police. I disliked some of the crooked cops that I knew, but on the surface, I’d be friendly with them, etc. Harry Ailman was a prolific hitman for the Elmwood Park crew. He killed a teamster who wouldn’t help set up trucks for the outfit, a guy named Billy Logan. He was just a regular guy. He’s going to take us right into the meeting with the judge. He’ll take us into a counselor’s row restaurant where these cases were fixed. Now, Bob will give us a seat right at Pat Marcy’s table. Now, Pat Marcy was the first ward fixture, and he’s going to take us into the hallway with Pat Marcy where they made the payoffs. [24:57] Now, Bob, can you take us inside the famous Harry Aileman murder case? I know you fixed it. And tell us, you know, and I know there was a human toll that this took on that corrupt judge, Frank Wilson. Okay. The Harry Aileman case was, it was not long after I became partners with Johnny DeArco. I get a call from, I’m in Counselor’s Row at the restaurant. Whenever I was in there now, my spot was the first ward table. Nobody was allowed to sit there day or night. That was reserved for first ward connected people and only the top group of people. [25:40] I’m sitting there at the table and Johnny DeArco Sr. Tells me, you know, Pat wants to talk to you. About something. And I said, you know, sure. Not long afterwards, Pat comes downstairs. We go out. We go out in the hall because we never talk at the table. And he tells me, have you got somebody that can handle the Harry Alleman case? I had seen in the news, he was front page news. He was one of the main mob hitmen. He was partners with Butchie Petrucelli. But it was common knowledge that he was a hitman. He looked like one. He dressed like one. He acted like one. And whatever. And he was one. In fact, he was the one that used to go to New York. And I know he also went to Arizona to do some hits and whatever. He traveled around the country. I said to Pat, they thought the case was a mob hit on a team street. a teamster. I assumed that it was just that. It was people doing what they do. But I said to Pat, I said, well, get me the file. Get me the file. Let me see what the case looks like. Because I would never put a judge in a bad spot. That was my nature. [27:06] When I had cases, a lot of these judges were personal friends of mine. What I would do, if I wanted to have a case, if I wanted to fix a case to save all the time of having to go to a damn long trial, I would make sure that it was a case that was winnable, easily winnable. When I got the file, when I got the file from Pat, he got me the file the next day. The next morning, when he came in, he gave me the file. I looked at the file. It was a throw-out case. When I say throw-out case, absolutely a nothing case. [27:46] The records in the file showed that a car drove up down the street. Suddenly somebody with a shotgun blasted a guy named Billy Logan in front of his house and drove away. They were contacted by a neighbor, this guy, Bobby Lowe. Was it Bobby Lowe? Yeah, I’m pretty sure Bobby Lowe. Who indicated that he opened the door and let his dog run out. And when he looked, he saw somebody. He saw a car, and he gave a description of the car. And he saw somebody pull up, and he saw him shoot with a shotgun. And then he saw the person get out of the car and shoot him with a .45, and shoot him with a .45. And then the car sped away. That was pretty much the case. Some other people heard some noise, looked out, and saw a car driving away. A period of time after that, it had to be about a year or so after that, somebody was arrested driving to Pennsylvania to kill somebody. There was a guy who stopped. [29:16] Louie Almeida was his name. Louie Almeida was stopped in his car. He was on the way to Pennsylvania. And in front of his car, he had shotguns. And he winds up, when he gets arrested, he winds up telling the authorities that he can tell them about a mob murder back in Chicago and winds up cooperating with them. He indicates what happened. He indicated that, you know, he was asked to, you know, or he got involved in it. He got the car and whatever. They did this. They did that. And he pulled up alongside Billy and wound up shooting the victim as he came out of the house. [30:09] Now, I look at some other reports in there, some reports that were made out, new reports. They talk about the Louis Almeida. They talk about the witness that gave the first statement. and they said that they found, or he’s giving us a new statement now where he says he’s walking his dog. He hears a shotgun. His dog runs towards the car where the shooting was coming from. He saw Harry get out of the car and walk over and shoot him, walk over and shoot the victim, and he was looking at him, And then he jumped in the bushes and the car drove away. A complete new story. Yeah. A complete new story. And. I looked at the reports, and this is an easy winner. And so I told Pat, you know, I’ll take it. You know, I’m sure I can handle it. I said, I’m sure I can handle it, but, you know, I’ll let you know. [31:21] That’s when I contacted, I met my restaurant, Greco’s, and I had Frank Wilson there a lot. Well, I called Frank Wilson, invited him and his wife to come to the restaurant. I had done that many times before. When he gets there, I tell him, I have the case. You know, I told him I was contacted on this case, I said. And I said, it’s an easy winner, I said. And I explained to him what it was. I told him, you know, it’s the driver of the car who’s doing this to help himself. And this other guy, Bobby Lowe, that gave a complete new story from the original story that he gave. And I indicated, you know, can you handle the case? And he tells me, I can’t handle the case, he said, because I was SOJ’d. In Chicago, Illinois, they have a rule that makes it easy for people to fool around because for no reason at all you can ask to have a judge moved off the case. And you can name a second judge that you don’t want to handle the case. [32:34] Frank Wilson’s reputation was as such that the lawyer that turned out to be a judge later on, Tom Maloney, who had the case, named him in the SOJ. It was assigned to somebody else, and he indicated he wanted any other judge except Frank Wilson. Frank Wilson on the case. And this was Harry Aileman’s lawyer. Yeah. Okay. And who Tom Maloney, who then ends up being the judge years later. But yeah. Well, because we knew he was going to be a judge. Yeah. We knew ahead of time. I knew at that time. That’s what makes the story so unbelievably interesting. Yeah. Anyhow, he says, I can’t do it because… In Chicago, in Chicago, it’s supposed to keep it honest. I love this. To keep it honest. Yeah. To keep it honest, each judge is supposed to be picked by computer. [33:33] Same thing they’re doing to this day. Trump wondered why the same judge kept getting all his cases. Because they’re doing the same thing we did, some of us could do in Chicago. He was the chief judge in the area. he said to me, I don’t think I can get the case. I don’t think I can’t get the case. I said, I’ll get the case to you. I said, I’ll get, because I already, I, in fact, through Pat Marcy, anytime I wanted a case to go anywhere, I would contact Pat and I’d give him a thousand dollars and he would get me any judge I wanted. Uh, I said, well, I think I can. I said, I said, And I gave him $1,000. [34:16] I said, here, this is yours. And if I can’t get the case to you, you keep it. If I can’t get, I never said to him, will you fix it? Will you this or that? I mean, he understood what it was. I didn’t know how he would react to it. When I asked him, would you handle it? Were the words I used. I had never fixed anything with him before. [34:43] In case he was, you know, he would want to report it to somebody. I wasn’t worried because Frank had a reputation as being a big drinker. After I got the Harry Elliman file, Pat tells me, I’m going to have somebody come and talk to you. Who comes? And we meet in the first ward office, and then we go downstairs into the special room they had for conversations. It’s Mike Ficarro. He’s the head of the organized crime section. He’s the one who prosecutes all the criminals. He’s one of the many prosecutors in Chicago. That’s why there were over 1,000 mob murders and never a conviction from the time of Al Capone. Not a single conviction with over 1,000 mob murders because they controlled absolutely everything. He’s the boss. [35:35] I knew him. I didn’t like him. He had an attitude about him. You know, when I would see him at parties and when I’d see him at other places, and I’d walk by and say, hi, he just seemed coldish. [35:47] I found out later why. He was jealous of the relationship I had with all these people. [35:54] He says, I’ll help you any way I can, anything you need, whatever. So the prosecutors on the Harry Olliman case were our people. That’s who’s prosecuting the case anyhow. But they couldn’t get one of their judges apparently who would handle the case. So, but anyhow, uh, so, uh, when we, um, when we go, when we, when we go to trial, um. [36:25] Before to help me out, I told Pat, I’ll get somebody else to handle the case. I’ll have somebody else. I said, I won’t go in there. I won’t go in there because everybody knows I’m close to Frank, very close to Frank. I said, so I won’t go in there. I’ll get somebody. He says, no, no. He said, I’ll get somebody. And so he gets a guy named Frank Whalen, who I didn’t know at the time. He was a retired lawyer from Chicago. He was one of the mob lawyers. [37:00] He was one of the mob lawyers. And he lived in Florida. He lived in Miami. I think it was, no, Lauderdale. He lived in the Lauderdale area. He was practicing there. So I fly out. I fly out to meet him. I i do all the investigating in the case the i’m using an investigator that harry alleman got from me in fact he was the same investigator that got in trouble in in uh in in hollywood for what for a lot of stuff i can’t think of his name right now but he’s the one who got indicted in hollywood eventually for you know wiretapping people and whatever it was the same one. And he got me information on Bobby on this Bobby Lowe. He found out Bobby Lowe, Bobby Lowe was a drug addict. [37:59] When the FBI got a hold of him, Bobby Lowe was living out in the street because he had been fired from his first job. He had a job in some kind of an ice cream company where they made ice cream, and he got fired there for stealing. And then he had a job after that in a gas station, and he faked a robbery there. Apparently, what he did was he called the police and said he had been robbed. This is before they had cameras and all the rest of that stuff. He said he had been robbed. And somebody happened to have been in the gas station getting gas. It was a big place, apparently. [38:45] And when the police talked to him, he said, I didn’t see anything strange. He said, I saw the attendant walk out to the back about 10, 15 minutes ago. I saw him walk out to the back of the place and then come back in. And so they go out, and he had his car parked behind it, and they found the money that was supposed to have been stolen in the car. So not the best witness, in other words. Well, that’s an understatement, because that was why… That was why now he suddenly shows up, and they know all this. The FBI agents that obviously know all this, that’s their witness. That’s their case. To me, it’s an airtight, you know. Yeah. Anyhow, I developed the defense. I went back to see Frank a second time. I flew out to Florida a second time, gave him all this information. [39:48] I had talked to some other people to a number of people that were going to indicate that Harry played golf with them that day see how they remembered not golf but he was at a driving range with them with about five people they remember what they were three or four years three or four years before that what I also found out now, and I didn’t know and it changed my whole attitude on that this wasn’t a mob killing you, This guy that he killed was married to his, I think it was his cousin or some relation was married. I’m pretty sure it was to his cousin. She had told Harry, I got this from Butchie, Butchie Petrosselli, who had become a close friend of mine after I got involved with Harry’s case, his partner. And that was why he killed them, because apparently the sister, his sister-in-law, whatever she was, had told him, you know, when he was beating her up, she had said, well, my Harry Alameda won’t be happy about this. And he said, supposedly, he said, fuck that, Kenny. [41:02] And that’s why the shooting took place. Wow. This changed me. You know, I’m in the middle of it. There’s no getting out of it now. Yeah, they’ll turn it back. And by now, I’m running around all the time with Butch and Mary at night. I’m meeting them at dinner. They’re coming to one of my places where I have dinners all the time. You know, I’m becoming like close friends, close friends with both of them. Yeah. So anyhow, but anyhow, the lawyer that he got, Frank Whalen, who was supposed to be sharp, turned out like he was not in his, let’s just say he was not in his prime. [41:46] Charitable. And when he went in, you know, while the trial was going on, you know, while the trial was going on, I get a call from Frank. From Frank Wilson, because I told him, you don’t come back into the restaurant now. You don’t come back into the restaurant. I used his office as my office all the time, along with a bunch of other judges. I had a phone, but it cost about a dollar a minute to talk on my phone. I had to talk on my phone. So when I’d be at 26th Street in the courthouse, even though no lawyers are allowed back there in the chamber, so I’m back there sitting at his desk using the phone taking care of my own other business. I stopped going in there while the trial was going on. [42:35] So, anyhow, he calls me, and he wants to meet me at a restaurant over on Western Avenue. And, okay, he called me from one of the pay phones out there in front of the courthouse, and I go to meet him. What did he want? Was he complaining about the lawyer, Waylon? What was he complaining about, Waylon? and I was screwing it up. [42:59] When I meet him, I said, you know, he’s like, you know, he said, you know, we go into the bathroom and he and he said he’s all shooken up. He says, this is going to cost me my job. He said, he said, you know, they’re burying him. You’re burying him. You know, because I had given this information on the two witnesses. And he says, Frank Whalen, he said, isn’t doing a thing and cross-examining these people and whatever. [43:32] And he says, and he’s all upset. And I said, Frank, no, I’m shook up one of the few times in my life where it’s something I can’t handle. He had never told me, you know, I’ll fix the case, never. And I said to him, and I said, Frank, I said, if something goes wrong, I said, I’m sure they’re going to kill me, is what I said to him. Yeah. I said, if something goes wrong, I’m sure they’re going to kill me. And I left. I left the bathroom. Now, I have no idea what’s going on in his mind and whatever. Yeah. I see Pat the next day. And by something goes wrong in this case, you mean if he gets found guilty, that’d be what would go wrong and you would get killed. Is that that’s what you mean? Well, no question, because when I met, I didn’t go into that. I met with Harry Alleman. I get a call after I got involved in the case. A couple days later, I get a call from Markle. Meet me at one of the nightclubs where I was all the time at night with these people. [44:47] Above it, you’ve got a motel, a bunch of hotel rooms. I get a call from Markle. The reason everybody loved me and the mob, I never discussed what I was doing with anybody or any of the other dozens of mobsters I run with that I was involved in Harry’s case. Never said a word to anybody about any of this. That was my nature, and that’s why all these people love me. I never talked about one thing with anybody else or whatever. He says, I want to meet you. When I get over there, he says, let’s go upstairs. Somebody wants to talk to you. And we go upstairs, and there’s Harry Alleman. And Harry, how you doing? How are you? [45:27] And he says, listen, you’re sure about this? And I said, yeah. I said, I’m sure. And he said, well, if something goes wrong, you’re going to have a problem. Those were his words to me. You’re going to have a problem. And I said, you know, he says, because this judge, he says, this judge is a straight judge. And he said, Tom, you mean Tom Maloney. He says, and Tom wants to handle my case. And he tells me he’s going to be named a judge by the Supreme Court real soon. And he wants to handle and he wants to handle my case before he… Uh, you know, before he becomes a Supreme court, before he becomes a judge, I knew the moment he told me that I knew for sure that was the case because we control everything, including the Supreme court. I said, you know, I said, don’t, you know, don’t worry about it. I lied to him. And I said, uh, I said, yeah, the judge is going to, I said, yeah, he’s going to throw it out. He knows, I said, he knows what’ll happen if he doesn’t. That’s what I told Harry. I want to keep him happy. [46:34] I’m going to keep him happy probably for a few hours I’m a little nervous and then that’s all behind me like so many other problems I got in the middle of oh my god talking about walking a tightrope so now the lawyer came into Chicago he was in Chicago I met him when he came in he was staying at the Bismarck was at the Bismarck Hotel right around the corner from you know where Counselor’s Row was that’s where he was staying in the in the hotel right there by the first board office and there was a way to go in there without being seen and there was a, You go through another restaurant and you go through the alley and go up there. And I wouldn’t, I didn’t want to be seen walking into there because I know the FBI are probably, are probably watching and whatever. When he comes into town, they handle the case. So I go upstairs to see him. You know, I said, what the hell’s going on in court? He says, I’m going, it’s going great. It’s going great. I said, it’s going great. I just, you know, I just got a call last night. I had to go meet the judge. And he said, you’re not doing any cross-examining. Oh, I’m doing a great job. You know, I’m doing a great job. So after a few minutes of, I leave. Yeah. [47:52] That’s when I saw Pat Marcy, too. And I said, Pat, I said, the judge is upset about whatever’s going on. I said, maybe we should give him some more because I agreed to give him $10,000. And he said, you know, what a piece of work he is. You know, he said $10,000, and that’s all he’s going to get, not a nickel more or whatever. So now to say I’m nervous again is an ultra statement. The case, I walked over, and I wouldn’t go in the room, but I wanted to just be around that room for some reason. FBI agents all over the place. [48:30] FBI agents all over the place. And so now I’m at home and I’m packed. I’ve got my bags packed because if he finds it, I don’t know what he’s going to do. I’m worried he might find him guilty because of all that had happened. He, when the trial ended a given night, and the next day he was going to give the result. In fact, I didn’t go out and play that night. I was a little nervous, and I stayed home, and I packed up my bags. I packed up my bags, and about 9 o’clock, I got in the car, and I started driving. And by the time he gave the ruling, I was probably about 100, maybe 150 miles away. And I hear on the radio, you know, found him not guilty, found him not guilty. So I turn around. Hit the next exit, turn around and come back. I turn around. Northbound on I-55. [49:27] Probably a couple hours later, here I am parked in my parking spot. My parking spot was in front of my office, right across from City Hall. And I parked in the mayor’s spot when she wasn’t there. And drove probably to drive her crazy. But that was where I parked. That was my parking spot. We’d see my big car with the RJC license plates parked in the bus stop. And so here I am. I parked the car and I go in. I go in. [50:01] And I’m sure Pat told some people, probably not, but I’m sure they told all the mobsters, all the top mobsters, because these guys all wanted to meet me afterwards and get the restaurant. I go in to see them. We walked into the janitor’s closet. You walk out of Counselor’s Row. You go to the left. It goes into the 100 North Building. Now, you’ve got the elevators to the right. And behind that, you’ve got a closet where the janitors keep all their stuff. And you’ve got some stairs leading up to the, there was a, what do you call it? There was an office there where the commodities, big commodity exchange was right there. that there was a stairway leading up to where the offices were with some doors with bars and everything on it. And Pat is standing on those stairs, about two or three stairs. You know, I said, wow. I said, you know, everybody’s going nuts. And he goes, well, you know, you did a good job. And he gives me an envelope. He gives me an envelope. And, you know, I put the money in my pocket. [51:09] We said we had some more. We said a couple other words about, you know, this and that. And then I just go in there. I go back in the counselor’s. [51:21] Now, after the feds started getting indictments, did you try and warn the Aleman case judge, Frank Wilson? Why did you do that? And when I went to see Frank Wilson, I went to help him. I said, Frank, I said, look, I said, I was contacted by, I said, I was contacted by the, by the, by the FBI. They were investigating the Harry Aleman case. I said to him, I said, they, they feel the case was fixed. I said, when they come to see me, I said, you know, I said, I’m not going to talk to them. I said, I’m not going to talk to them. I’m going to take the fifth. And in your case, you can do the same thing. When they, if they come to talk to you, you just take the fifth amendment. If they give you immunity, I said, you know, then you, then you testify, but you tell them the truth. I said, don’t worry about me. Tell them the truth. This is how I talk to him. When I’m talking to him like that, it’s almost like he’s trying to run away from me. [52:27] We’re at a restaurant in a big complex. It was in one of those resorts in Arizona. He’s all but running away from me. I was trying to help him. What I said to him was, Frank, I said, the statute of limitations ran on all this. It’s been more than five years. There’s nothing they can do to you or to me, I said, because the statute ran. I said, so don’t lie to them. What the feds were concerned about, and I don’t know why, that he would deny ever fixing the case when it went through. I don’t know why they’re worried about that, but they were, and I didn’t want to see him get in trouble. [53:13] That’s why I went there to protect him. Hey, Bob, you were asked to represent an outfit associate or an outfit associate’s son who was accused of breaking the jaw of a Chicago policewoman. And you know, when a cop is injured in a fight with somebody, the cops follow that case. And I do not want to see any shenanigans going on. So, so tell us about how you walked that line. And I bet those cops were, were not happy with you in the end. Some people think this is a reason you flipped. Take us inside that case, will you? [53:45] And the reason I mentioned that it had a lot to do with what I eventually did. Now we’ll get back to what made me do what I was going to do. When I was practicing law now, and now I have been away from all this for years, I was out of town a lot because I’m representing the Chinese all around the country. I’m their main lawyer right now. [54:10] And I get a call from Lenny Colella. And he says, my son, he said, my son is in trouble. I want to come in and I want to talk to you about handling his case. This was a heater case, too. This was a front page case because he was charged with aggravated battery and attempted murder. Supposedly, he had beat up a policewoman and it was all over the place. He was a drug addict and whatever, supposedly he did all this. And when he came into the office with his dad, he was high. When I talked to him, he’s got his kid with him. And the kid is a smart aleck. As we’re talking, the kid, and I asked the kid, well, whatever. The kid was a smart aleck. And I just said to him, I said, Len, I can’t help you. I said, get him out of here. I want nothing to do with him. I said, I can’t help you. You didn’t take cases that were involved with cops anyhow, for the most part. No. I didn’t know what had happened in this case. I know what I saw in the paper. I didn’t know what the facts or anything were or whatever. I mean, if it turned out that if I felt when I talked to him that he had done it, whatever, I would not have taken the case anyhow. [55:26] I mean, I would not have. That’s why I say, too, that may be, too, why I was as quick and as rude as I was when he came in there and was acting and was a little bit high. I just wanted nothing to do with him, period. I said to his dad, his father said, you know, if I get him cleaned up, you know, I said, well, if you get him cleaned up, then we’ll talk again. I said, but I can’t help him, and I can’t help him. [55:54] And off he goes. the father re-contacted me about a week later. And he said, I had him in rehab and he straightened out and whatever. And he brought him back in and it was a new person. And when he told me the facts of the case, when he told me what happened, because he was a big, tough kid. He was a big, you know, he was a weightlifter, but he was a big, tough looking kid. [56:19] And it’s a little police woman. When he told me what happened, I believed him. Because I’ve been out in the street and whatever. And he says, you know, he told me what happened, that he had gotten stopped. He was out there talking to her. And when she said, you’re under arrest for DUI, he just walked. He says, I walked. I was going to get in my car and drive away. And she grabbed me and was pulling me or whatever. And I hear all these sirens coming. And within a few minutes, there’s all kinds of police. There’s about half a dozen police there. He says, and then they started jumping on me. He said, she was under me. He was all beaten up. He was all bloody and whatever. And she apparently had her jaw broken. And there’s no doubt in my mind when he’s telling me that, you know, when they were hit with his clubs or with this thing that they claimed he had without his fingerprints, it was a metal bar. Right, a slapper. A chunk of lead covered by leather. Everybody used to carry a slapper. How about you carry a slapper? They claimed, but there was no cloth on this. It was just the metal itself. Yeah, oh really? [57:45] Anyhow, that makes it interesting during the trial when they flat out lied. No, he had no blood. I got the hospital reports. They wouldn’t take him in the station because he was too badly beaten up. But anyhow, he also had two other charges. He had been involved in a fight in a bar. And he had been involved in another situation with the police. And he was charged with resisting arrest and battery on a policeman out in Cicero. So he had these three cases. So I gave the father a fee on handling, you know, the one, I was going to, I gave him a fee one case at a time. I said, you know, first thing we’ll do, I want to get rid of those other two cases. I’ll take them to juries, I said. [58:36] I’ll take them to juries because I wasn’t going to put them. I knew both the judges on those cases, but I wasn’t going to put them in a position on a case like that. I take the first case to trial. And I get him a not guilty. That was the fight in the bar. [58:54] That was out in one of the suburbs. That was out in, I’m not sure which suburb, in the northwest side. After we get that case over with, before that case, I get a call from Pat Marcy. Pat Marcy, I hadn’t seen him probably even for a couple months, but I hadn’t talked to him for quite a long period of time. And he says to me, you got a case that just came in. He said, we’re going to handle it. And I said, there’s no need, Pat. I said, I can win these cases. I said, there’s no need. I can win these cases. And he said, we’re going to handle this. The case is going to go to Judge Passarella, he said, and we’ll take care of it. I said, Pat, there’s no need to. I said, I can win these cases. I said, they’re all jury trials, but I know I can win them all. And he says, you do as you’re told. Pat had never talked to me like that before. [59:54] Powerful as he was and crazy as I am, And he never, you know, you never demand that I do anything or whatever. We had a different type relationship. And although I hadn’t broken away from them by now, it’s been years. I had broken away from them for about, you know, two, three years. And he says, you know, take the case to trial. I said, well, he’s got some other cases, too, and I’m going to take the one. And she says, I’ll take it to a jury, and I’ll win it. You’ll see how I win it. I take her to trial, and I get her not guilty. The second case was set for trial about a month after that. Not even, yeah, about a month or so after that. And during that time, a couple of times I’m in counselors, and Pat says, when are you going to take the case to trial? I said, well, Pat, you know, I won the one case. I got the other case on trial, and it was before Judge Stillo. He was a judge that we eventually indicted. [1:00:51] Stillo was very, very well connected to the first ward. He’s one of the old-time judges out in Maywood. And I told him, you know, when I came in there, he assumed I’d take it to trial and he’d throw it out. And I said, no, no, no, there’s no need to. I says, I’m going to take the jury on this one. Number one, I had stopped fixing things long before this. And, but he was, to make money, he was willing that he would have thrown the case out. It was a battery with a Cicero policeman. And I says, no, no, I’ll take it. I’ll take it to, you know, I’ll take the jury. I said, I don’t want to put you in that pursuit. Oh, don’t worry about me. I take that one to trial and I win that one too. Now Pat calls me, when the hell are you going to take the case to trial? And that’s the original case with the police woman. That’s the main one. The main one. Okay, go ahead. [1:01:44] When are you going to take it to trial? And I don’t want to take it to trial. In fact. I had talked to the prosecutor, and I said, look, I said, because he was charged with, he was charged with, you know, attempted murder and arrest. I said, if you’ll reduce it, the prosecutor was an idiot. He knew me, should have realized that, you know, that I never lose cases. Yeah. You know, but I want to work out something. He was a special prosecutor on it. He said, we’re not going to reduce it. We said, you know, if you want to work out a plea, we went five years, we went five to ten or whatever in the penitentiary. And I said, well, that’s not going to happen. I said, well, then we’ll just have to go to trial. So now, while I’m at Counselor’s Row, on one of my many occasions, because I was still having some card games over there at somebody else’s other lawyer’s office, because I had had big card games going on there for years. I’m sitting at the counselor’s row table, and Judge Passarella comes in. There’s just him and me there, and when he comes in, I say, Oh, you’re here to see Pat? [1:02:56] And he goes, Pat, who? No more conversation. Who the fuck? No more. The guy’s treating me like I’m some kind of a fool or whatever. And I developed an instant disliking to him. I had never seen him around that much or whatever before that. So now, after the second case, you’re going to go to, you know. So I talked to Lenny. When Lenny came in, Lenny came in with him when we were starting to get prepared for the case. And, oh, this is before this is before I talked to the prosecutor. And I said, Lenny, I said, I says, if I can get it reduced to a misdemeanor, to a misdemeanor. I said, you know, can we work with, you know, and work out a plea, let’s say, for maybe a month or two, you know, a month or two. Is that OK with you? Oh, sure. He says, oh, sure. [1:03:57] Now, this Lenny, this was the kid’s dad, your client’s dad. This is his dad. Now, explain who he was, who Lenny was. His dad was. What’s his last name? Yeah, Karela. Karela, okay. Lenny Karela, I’m pretty sure was his name. He owned a big bakery out there in Elmwood Park area. Okay. And he was friendly with all the mobsters. Okay, all right. I got you. For all I knew, he may have been a mobster himself, but I mean, he may have been because we had thousands of people that were connected. He was a connected guy. All right, go ahead. I’m sorry. And he said, oh, yeah, sure, no, not a problem because the papers are meant, they’re still, after a year, they’re still mentioning that case will be going to trial soon and every so often. [1:04:43] What I had also done, I tried to make contact with the policewoman, not with her, but I put the word out and I knew a lot of police and I got a hold of somebody that did know her. And I said, look, I said, no, the case is fixed if I want it. Yeah. But I don’t want it. Even though I know that, you know, that it’s all BS, you know, I said, look, I said, get a hold of her and get a hold of her lawyer and tell them if they want to file a lawsuit, you know, you know, we can, they can get themselves some money on it. Uh, you know, he’ll indicate, you know, he’ll, he’ll, he’ll indicate that, you know, he, he was guilty or whatever, but I wanted to get her some money. The word I get back is tell him that piece of shit, meaning me to drop dead, to drop dead. You know, we’re going to put this guy in prison and that’s where he should be too. When the case now, now when the case goes to trial. [1:05:48] The coppers lied like hell and talk about stupid. I’ve got the police reports there. When they took him into the police station, they wouldn’t take him. The station said take him to a hospital. He goes to the hospital and the reports, you know, bleeding here, bleeding there, and, you know, marks here, marks there. They beat the hell out of him. [1:06:10] You know, nobody touched him. You know, nobody touched him. Nobody touched him. Was he bleeding? No, no, he wasn’t. He wasn’t bleeding. Didn’t have any, you know, along with, you know, along with everything else. Flat out lied. How many policemen were there? There were two or three. There were about 10 by the time it’s over. But it’s an absolute throwout. Any fingerprints on that metal? Well, we had some fingerprints, but not his. And on and on it went. It’s a throwout case to start with. The courtroom now where the case was, was very interesting. You walk in there, and when you walk in there, there’s about 20 people that can sit. And then there’s, it’s the only courtroom in the building where you have a wall, a glass wall, all the way up, all the way up. Covering in the door, opens up and goes in there. You go in there. It’s a big courtroom. A bunch of benches now in there. You go to the left, and here’s the judge’s chambers. You come out of the chambers, and you walk up about four steps. And here the desk is on like a podium. And it’s not where all the others are, you know, where you look straight forward. It’s over on the side. It’s over, you know, to the left as you walk out of his chambers. [1:07:40] When the judge listens to the case he goes in there I’ll come up back with my ruling he comes out about 10 minutes later he walks up the steps, And now he turns off the microphone. Somebody turns off the microphone so the people in the back can’t hear anything. The ones inside there can, you know, can hear. The one back there can’t hear anything because it’s all enclosed. [1:08:11] That’s why they got the microphone back there. Somebody shut it off. He says, basically, I’m not guilty in a real strange voice. And all but runs off the all but run and don’t ask me why this is what he did all but runs off all but runs off into the into his chambers, you know he’s afraid all those cops out in the audience were going to come and charge the stand I guess and put a whack on him. [1:08:43] But think about it this is Chicago he’s with the bad guys but I’m just saying I don’t know why he did all that, but that’s what he did. And so now, as I come walking out with Mike, and they’re all in uniform, and most of them are in uniform, and then you’ve got the press and all kinds of cameras and whatever there. And as I come walking out along with him, some of these guys I know, and these jerk-offs are like calling me names and whatever. I go, I go see Pat. [1:09:23] And when I go back into Counselor’s Row now, he’s there at the table. And when I come in, it’s a repeat of the Harry Allerman thing. He walks out. He walks directly. And I’m following him, and he walks in. He goes back into the same janitor’s closet and stands on the same steps just above me, you know, talking to me. And I said to him I said this judge is going to have a problem, I said, he’s going to have a problem. I said, what if he says something? And he said to me, nobody would dare. He said, nobody would dare cooperate against us. They know what would happen. Or words to that effect. And don’t ask me why. So many other things had happened before this. But now I’m looking at him and I’m thinking, you know, somebody’s got to stop this craziness. All this stuff. I’m thinking that at the moment, but then I’m worried for some reason, I think he can read my mind. [1:10:34] Stupid as all of this seems, I’m afraid to think that anymore. I’m almost, you know, cause Pat’s such a powerful person and every sense I know, I know his power, but anyhow, so I leave. And like I say, 10, 15 minutes later, that’s all forgotten about. He paid me the rest of the money I was supposed to get from them. [1:10:56] Obviously, he wanted to do it because he was probably charging a lot of money. That’s why he didn’t want me to take things. He wanted to collect the money because while the case was going on too, he puts me in touch with the head of the probation department because he was able to help in some way. He knew some of the, you know, some of the, some of the policemen involved in the thing had been contacted too. Yeah. But they were contacted and they messed up by, you know, they messed up by lying about all that. Yeah. When there’s police reports saying, oh, no, but anyhow, that was that particular case. Tell us why you decided to flip. [1:11:38] These had been your friends. You knew you had explosive information. You knew as a lawyer, you knew what you had to say would send these people to prison for many, many years. if not life. It had to be hard. As other things happened, why did I commit the, Probably two or three other times things happened. But the most important thing was to think when my dad was dying, and I was very close to my dad. When my dad was dyi

Cobra Claws has come to town! We're kicking off the big holiday week with a present under your tree from our friends BMac, Lenny, and Tony from the Hasbro GI Joe Team. Tune to hear all about the Arctic H.I.S.S, answers to YOUR burning questions... and maybe... a reveal?!?! Follow BMac @bmacatron84, Lenny @weatherdominator, and Tony @thegreattonino on Instagram. Stay up-to-date w/ the latest from Hasbro at hasbropulse.comFollow us @aic_podcast on Instagram, Facebook, X, and YouTubeStart creating a podcast today with Zencastr! Learn more.Intro and other voices by Joe Azzarihttps://www.instagram.com/voicesbyjoe/Theme Music is "Game Boy Horror" by the Zombie DandiesProudly part of the Non-Productive Network

Join the exclusive new podcast Somehow UN-Related! It's our subscriber-only show with Glenn and Dave! Get it here, on Apple Podcasts or go to Nearly.com.au This episode! You don't need to be strong to do Paintball. And it's not going to help you build serious muscles, right? Thinking Music Tony Martin's Arnold Schwarzenegger Impression Link to the answer Mental Floss Support the podcasts you enjoy - check out Lenny.fm More about the show - www.nearly.com.au/somehow-related-podcast-with-glenn-robbins-and-dave-oneil/ Somehow Related is produced by Nearly Media. Original theme music by Kit Warhurst. Artwork created by Stacy Gougoulis. Looking for another podcast? The Debrief with Dave O'Neil - Dave's other podcasts with comedians after gigs. The Junkees with Dave O'Neil & Kitty Flanagan - The sweet and salty roundabout! Junk food abounds!Support on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What does it take to build products that feel thoughtful, emotionally resonant, and unmistakably high-quality, especially inside a company that ships fast and experiments constantly?In this episode of Supra Insider, Marc and Ben sit down with Nickey Skarstad, Director of Product at Duolingo, to unpack how one of the world's most beloved consumer apps maintains its bar for craft, clarity, and delight while operating at massive scale. Nickey shares how Duolingo operationalizes quality across teams, how they dogfood relentlessly, and why “unreasonable hospitality” applies just as much to software as it does to service.She also shares the internal rituals Duolingo uses - like their “hot trash” Friday forum for sharing early experiments, and how these lightweight mechanisms help PMs, designers, and engineers learn from each other. Nickey walks through Duolingo's product review process, how senior leaders give feedback, and how the company ensures teams move quickly without shipping work that falls below their quality standards.Whether you're a PM trying to strengthen your intuition, a design-driven leader aiming for higher quality bars, or a product builder exploring how AI should (and shouldn't) fit into your workflow, this episode is full of concrete lessons you can use immediately.All episodes of the podcast are also available on Spotify, Apple and YouTube.New to the pod? Subscribe below to get the next episode in your inbox

Sander Schulhoff is an AI researcher specializing in AI security, prompt injection, and red teaming. He wrote the first comprehensive guide on prompt engineering and ran the first-ever prompt injection competition, working with top AI labs and companies. His dataset is now used by Fortune 500 companies to benchmark their AI systems security, he's spent more time than anyone alive studying how attackers break AI systems, and what he's found isn't reassuring: the guardrails companies are buying don't actually work, and we've been lucky we haven't seen more harm so far, only because AI agents aren't capable enough yet to do real damage.We discuss:1. The difference between jailbreaking and prompt injection attacks on AI systems2. Why AI guardrails don't work3. Why we haven't seen major AI security incidents yet (but soon will)4. Why AI browser agents are vulnerable to hidden attacks embedded in webpages5. The practical steps organizations should take instead of buying ineffective security tools6. Why solving this requires merging classical cybersecurity expertise with AI knowledge—Brought to you by:Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform: https://www.datadoghq.com/lennyMetronome—Monetization infrastructure for modern software companies: https://metronome.com/GoFundMe Giving Funds—Make year-end giving easy: http://gofundme.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-coming-ai-security-crisis—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181089452/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Sander Schulhoff:• X: https://x.com/sanderschulhoff• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sander-schulhoff• Website: https://sanderschulhoff.com• AI Red Teaming and AI Security Masterclass on Maven: https://bit.ly/44lLSbC—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Sander Schulhoff and AI security(05:14) Understanding AI vulnerabilities(11:42) Real-world examples of AI security breaches(17:55) The impact of intelligent agents(19:44) The rise of AI security solutions(21:09) Red teaming and guardrails(23:44) Adversarial robustness(27:52) Why guardrails fail(38:22) The lack of resources addressing this problem(44:44) Practical advice for addressing AI security(55:49) Why you shouldn't spend your time on guardrails(59:06) Prompt injection and agentic systems(01:09:15) Education and awareness in AI security(01:11:47) Challenges and future directions in AI security(01:17:52) Companies that are doing this well(01:21:57) Final thoughts and recommendations—Referenced:• AI prompt engineering in 2025: What works and what doesn't | Sander Schulhoff (Learn Prompting, HackAPrompt): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ai-prompt-engineering-in-2025-sander-schulhoff• The AI Security Industry is Bullshit: https://sanderschulhoff.substack.com/p/the-ai-security-industry-is-bullshit• The Prompt Report: Insights from the Most Comprehensive Study of Prompting Ever Done: https://learnprompting.org/blog/the_prompt_report?srsltid=AfmBOoo7CRNNCtavzhyLbCMxc0LDmkSUakJ4P8XBaITbE6GXL1i2SvA0• OpenAI: https://openai.com• Scale: https://scale.com• Hugging Face: https://huggingface.co• Ignore This Title and HackAPrompt: Exposing Systemic Vulnerabilities of LLMs through a Global Scale Prompt Hacking Competition: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Ignore-This-Title-and-HackAPrompt%3A-Exposing-of-LLMs-Schulhoff-Pinto/f3de6ea08e2464190673c0ec8f78e5ec1cd08642• Simon Willison's Weblog: https://simonwillison.net• ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com• ServiceNow AI Agents Can Be Tricked Into Acting Against Each Other via Second-Order Prompts: https://thehackernews.com/2025/11/servicenow-ai-agents-can-be-tricked.html• Alex Komoroske on X: https://x.com/komorama• Twitter pranksters derail GPT-3 bot with newly discovered “prompt injection” hack: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/09/twitter-pranksters-derail-gpt-3-bot-with-newly-discovered-prompt-injection-hack• MathGPT: https://math-gpt.org• 2025 Las Vegas Cybertruck explosion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Las_Vegas_Cybertruck_explosion• Disrupting the first reported AI-orchestrated cyber espionage campaign: https://www.anthropic.com/news/disrupting-AI-espionage• Thinking like a gardener not a builder, organizing teams like slime mold, the adjacent possible, and other unconventional product advice | Alex Komoroske (Stripe, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unconventional-product-advice-alex-komoroske• Prompt Optimization and Evaluation for LLM Automated Red Teaming: https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.22133• MATS Research: https://substack.com/@matsresearch• CBRN: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBRN_defense• CaMeL offers a promising new direction for mitigating prompt injection attacks: https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/11/camel• Trustible: https://trustible.ai• Repello: https://repello.ai• Do not write that jailbreak paper: https://javirando.com/blog/2024/jailbreaks—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Try our FREE burnout quiz.Grab your burnout workbook HERE. We have heard from the victims of generational trauma from it's victims, but what about the people who perpetuate it, until they finally realising what they are doing?That is the story of Lenny Ravich, a man who experienced abuse as ‘punishment' and passed it on to his children until he realised what he was doing and worked hard to make the change.Lenny is an 89-year-old keynote speaker, author, and Gestalt therapist whose life work bridges humour, healing, and human connection. His message lands with lightness and truth – shaped by decades of lived experience, not theory. Lenny doesn't just talk about joy – he lives it.In this episode he shares:- What it was like for him growing up and the violence he experienced from his parents- How he perpetuated generational violence- His relationship with his sister and reconciling with her- how a conference and gestalt therapy led him to realisations about himself- Gestalt therapy and realising awareness and mindfulness- An experience that led him to fully accept himself- What was his process of changing after his realisation- His experience of deep listening and how it has impacted his lifeKey Quotes“Aa person could tell me they're dying in 3 days and I would joke about it.”“It was all about me, anything that came up, it was all about me.”“I didn't tackle my narcissism it's still there but I'm aware of it happeningMore about LennyFind his website here.You can get involved with the podcast online On facebook in our community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/challengesthatchangeusOr on Instagram: @challengesthatchangeusIf you want to contact the podcast, email us here: support@challengesthatchangeus.comOr check out our website: www.Challengesthatchangeus.com If you want to find out more about what Ali does, check out her business via the website:http://www.trialtitudeperformance.com.au Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this Parsha Review episode on Parshas Vayeishev, Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe explores the story of Yosef as a paradigm of divine guidance amid human challenges. Yosef, described as an "Ish Matzliach" (successful man) whose every endeavor prospered because "Hashem was with him," rose from slave to overseer in Potiphar's house—yet when entrusted with everything except "the bread he ate," the Torah abruptly notes Yosef's handsome appearance. Rashi explains Yosef began beautifying himself out of pride in his sudden success, forgetting his father Yaakov's mourning; Hashem responded with the ultimate test—Potiphar's wife's seduction—to realign his priorities.Rabbi Wolbe emphasizes that all events, even painful ones from people, are Hashem's precise "midah k'neged midah" (measure for measure) messages for growth, not random cruelty. Wicked messengers like Nebuchadnezzar (called "My servant") or historical evils fulfill decrees but are punished for volunteering malice. Prayer, teshuva, and mitzvot allow us to change decrees before they fully manifest, as Yosef did by resisting temptation and earning the title "Yosef HaTzaddik."True greatness invites profound challenges—the deeper the pit (literally for Yosef), the higher the ascent. Spiritual growth isn't steady but full of ups and downs; success follows the greatest struggles, mirroring a living heartbeat rather than a flatline. As long as we're "above the grass," we can embrace challenges, repent, and rise._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 16, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 19, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Challenges, #prayer, #repentance, #divineguidance, #growth ★ Support this podcast ★

In this Parshas Miketz review—always read on Shabbos Chanukah—Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe uncovers the profound link between Pharaoh's disturbing dreams and the miracle of Chanukah. Pharaoh dreams of seven gaunt cows devouring seven robust ones, and seven thin, scorched ears swallowing seven healthy stalks—images that shatter his worldview where the strong always overpower the weak, the many dominate the few, and the beautiful prevail. This reversal terrifies him, as it defies the "laws of nature" he knows.The rabbi explains that Pharaoh's nightmare encapsulates Jewish history: the Jewish people, perpetually the few, the weak, and the persecuted, miraculously overcome mighty empires—from Greece in the Chanukah story to countless assaults over 2,000 years (with scarcely a decade without pogroms, expulsions, or blood libels). Chanukah celebrates precisely this reversal: the weak Maccabees defeating the vast Greek army, the pure overcoming the impure, and a single cruse of oil burning for eight days.Just as Pharaoh's dream disturbed the natural order, Jewish survival and triumph defy logic—proving Hashem's direct intervention. Our mission is not physical conquest but spiritual illumination: proudly displaying the menorah, living Torah values openly, and thanking Hashem ceaselessly for both light and darkness, success and challenge. Shabbos candles even take precedence over Chanukah lights for the sake of shalom bayis (peace in the home), underscoring that harmony is the foundation for all miracles._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 19, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 19, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Chanukah #Miketz #Pharaoh, #Dreams, #Miracles, #Weak, #Strong, #Hanukkah, #JewishHistory, #Divine, #Light, #Darkness, #ShalomBayis ★ Support this podcast ★

In this Parshas Miketz review—always read on Shabbos Chanukah—Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe uncovers the profound link between Pharaoh's disturbing dreams and the miracle of Chanukah. Pharaoh dreams of seven gaunt cows devouring seven robust ones, and seven thin, scorched ears swallowing seven healthy stalks—images that shatter his worldview where the strong always overpower the weak, the many dominate the few, and the beautiful prevail. This reversal terrifies him, as it defies the "laws of nature" he knows.The rabbi explains that Pharaoh's nightmare encapsulates Jewish history: the Jewish people, perpetually the few, the weak, and the persecuted, miraculously overcome mighty empires—from Greece in the Chanukah story to countless assaults over 2,000 years (with scarcely a decade without pogroms, expulsions, or blood libels). Chanukah celebrates precisely this reversal: the weak Maccabees defeating the vast Greek army, the pure overcoming the impure, and a single cruse of oil burning for eight days.Just as Pharaoh's dream disturbed the natural order, Jewish survival and triumph defy logic—proving Hashem's direct intervention. Our mission is not physical conquest but spiritual illumination: proudly displaying the menorah, living Torah values openly, and thanking Hashem ceaselessly for both light and darkness, success and challenge. Shabbos candles even take precedence over Chanukah lights for the sake of shalom bayis (peace in the home), underscoring that harmony is the foundation for all miracles._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 19, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 19, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Chanukah #Miketz #Pharaoh, #Dreams, #Miracles, #Weak, #Strong, #Hanukkah, #JewishHistory, #Divine, #Light, #Darkness, #ShalomBayis ★ Support this podcast ★

In this Parsha Review episode on Parshas Vayeishev, Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe explores the story of Yosef as a paradigm of divine guidance amid human challenges. Yosef, described as an "Ish Matzliach" (successful man) whose every endeavor prospered because "Hashem was with him," rose from slave to overseer in Potiphar's house—yet when entrusted with everything except "the bread he ate," the Torah abruptly notes Yosef's handsome appearance. Rashi explains Yosef began beautifying himself out of pride in his sudden success, forgetting his father Yaakov's mourning; Hashem responded with the ultimate test—Potiphar's wife's seduction—to realign his priorities.Rabbi Wolbe emphasizes that all events, even painful ones from people, are Hashem's precise "midah k'neged midah" (measure for measure) messages for growth, not random cruelty. Wicked messengers like Nebuchadnezzar (called "My servant") or historical evils fulfill decrees but are punished for volunteering malice. Prayer, teshuva, and mitzvot allow us to change decrees before they fully manifest, as Yosef did by resisting temptation and earning the title "Yosef HaTzaddik."True greatness invites profound challenges—the deeper the pit (literally for Yosef), the higher the ascent. Spiritual growth isn't steady but full of ups and downs; success follows the greatest struggles, mirroring a living heartbeat rather than a flatline. As long as we're "above the grass," we can embrace challenges, repent, and rise._____________This episode of the Parsha Review Podcast is dedicated in honor of Lenny & Teresa FriedmanDownload & Print the Parsha Review Notes:https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ncaRyoH5iJmGGoMZs9y82Hz2ofViVouv?usp=sharingRecorded at TORCH Meyerland in the Levin Family Studios (B) to a live audience on December 16, 2025, in Houston, Texas.Released as Podcast on December 19, 2025_____________Subscribe: Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parsha-review-podcast-rabbi-aryeh-wolbe/id1651930083)Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/show/22lv1kXJob5ZNLaAl6CHTQ) to stay inspired! Share your questions at awolbe@torchweb.org or visit torchweb.org for more Torah content.  _____________About the Host:Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, Director of TORCH in Houston, brings decades of Torah scholarship to guide listeners in applying Jewish wisdom to daily life.  To directly send your questions, comments, and feedback: awolbe@torchweb.org_____________Support Our Mission:Help us share Jewish wisdom globally by sponsoring an episode at torchweb.org. Your support makes a difference!_____________Subscribe and Listen to other podcasts by Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe: NEW!! Prayer Podcast: https://prayerpodcast.transistor.fm/episodesJewish Inspiration Podcast: https://inspiration.transistor.fm/episodesParsha Review Podcast: https://parsha.transistor.fm/episodesLiving Jewishly Podcast: https://jewishly.transistor.fm/episodesThinking Talmudist Podcast: https://talmud.transistor.fm/episodesUnboxing Judaism Podcast: https://unboxing.transistor.fm/episodesRabbi Aryeh Wolbe Podcast Collection: https://collection.transistor.fm/episodesFor a full listing of podcasts available by TORCH at http://podcast.torchweb.org_____________Keywords:#Torah, #Parsha, #Genesis, #Joseph, #Challenges, #prayer, #repentance, #divineguidance, #growth ★ Support this podcast ★

Elena Verna is the head of growth at Lovable, the leading AI-powered app builder that hit $200 million in annual recurring revenue in under a year with just 100 employees. In this record fourth appearance on the podcast, Elena shares how the traditional growth playbook has been completely rewritten for AI companies. She explains why Lovable focuses on innovation over optimization, how they've shifted from activation to building new features, and why giving away their product for free has become their most powerful growth strategy.We discuss:1. Why 60% to 70% of traditional growth tactics no longer apply in AI2. Why you have to re-find product-market fit every 3 months3. The specific growth tactics driving Lovable's unprecedented growth4. Why giving away product is a growth strategy that beats paid ads5. “Minimum lovable product” as the new standard (not minimum viable product)6. Why activation now belongs to product teams, not growth teams7. Whether you should join an AI startup (honest tradeoffs)—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsVercel—Your collaborative AI assistant to design, iterate, and scale full-stack applications for the webPersona—A global leader in digital identity verification—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/181207556/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠—Where to find Elena Verna:• X: https://x.com/elenaverna• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna• Newsletter: https://www.elenaverna.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Elena Verna(05:19) The scale and growth of Lovable(08:55) Confidence in Lovable as a business(12:17) Retention at Lovable(15:02) Lovable's unique growth levers(28:13) The role of marketing in Lovable's success(38:09) Launching new features(40:59) Hiring and team dynamics(43:17) The value of vibe coding(49:46) The importance of community(51:47) Giving away your product for free(56:26) Tripling their company size(01:00:23) Product-market-fit challenges(01:08:50) Advice for joining AI companies(01:12:00) Work-life balance(01:15:20) What it's like to work at Lovable(01:19:45) Women in tech(01:25:29) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led• 10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna• Lovable: https://lovable.dev• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Stripe: https://stripe.com• What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing• How to win in the AI era: Ship a feature every week, embrace technical debt, ruthlessly cut scope, and create magic your competitors can't copy | Gaurav Misra (CEO and co-founder of Captions): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-win-in-the-ai-era-gaurav-misra• “Dumbest idea I've heard” to $100M ARR: Inside the rise of Gamma | Grant Lee (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn• Eric Ries on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eries• Elena's post on LinkedIn about Lovable Missions: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_everythingispossible-lovableway-activity-7401627519646474242-hn6e• SheBuilds: https://shebuilds.lovable.app• Shopify + Lovable: https://lovable.dev/shopify• The Product-Market Fit Treadmill: Why every AI company is sprinting just to stay in place: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/the-product-market-fit-treadmill• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba• The adjacent user: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user• Granola: https://www.granola.ai• Wispr Flow: https://wisprflow.ai• I'm worried about women in tech: https://www.elenaverna.com/p/im-worried-about-women-in-tech• Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Author of “Introducing The Scarlett Scrapper” joins me to discuss the inspiration for writing his first novel, one of his writing heroes giving him some hard advice, being a nerd, 40's radio shows, his next novel. Enjoy!

We celebrate our 200th episode with some reminiscing, and some recounts of cold days and playing with action figures. Sporting CP hit another Triple double this year, with goals spread around as they destroy AVS Futebol SAD 6-0. The Special one is finding his form with SL Benfica as they snag points away from Napoli in the Champions league and then lean on Pavlidis to put a hurting on Moreirense. Porto quietly continue their dominant streak in Portugal and Europe, with a big goal week for Samu, as he scores against Malmo and Estrela de Amadora. Famalicao are unleashing some impressive talents upon the league, but more than anything, bringing some great vibes. Another big win in the league as they strike down Estoril 4-0.We debate some other fun stuff like Eusebio, Cristiano Ronaldo, Green tea, Frankenstein, Lenny & Carl, Hamilton , and more. Enjoy!

Mass Movement Presents… 1985 Games  In which the RPG-obsessed half of the middle-aged crew hangs and chats to Lenny from 1985 Games about all things Dungeons &Dragons, ‘Obojima',gaming, conventions, and much, much more, and spins a new track from Raw Brigade's forthcoming album on Flatspot Records, ‘100%'. Tune in, turn it up, and geek out.  This one's a doozy..

In this explosive episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with actor, entrepreneur, and mob insider Gianni “Johnny” Russo, best known for his unforgettable role as Carlo Rizzi in The Godfather. Russo pulls back the curtain on a lifetime of stories that stretch from Frank Costello and Joe Colombo to Las Vegas skimming, the Vatican Bank, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, and even Pablo Escobar. Russo discusses his new book, Mafia Secrets: Untold Tales from the Hollywood Godfather, co-written with Michael Benson—an unfiltered account of power, violence, politics, and survival inside the criminal underworld and Hollywood royalty. This is not recycled mythology—this is Gianni Russo's personal version of history from the inside. Whether you believe every word or not, the stories are raw, violent, and utterly fascinating. This episode discusses: The Godfather, The Kennedy assassinations, Vegas skimming, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Hoffa, the Chicago Outfit, Pablo Escobar

Steve, Miss Beka Sue, Lenny, Joe & Matt M. talk about something so good it almost seems like a mirage… Royce Neeley's office. TBD music by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).   Important Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theabvnetwork Our Events Page: bourbonpalooza.com Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. The ABV Barrel Shop: abvbarrelshop.com   Join the revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile on social media.

Nick Capper on Somehow UN-Related! It's our subscriber-only podcast with Glenn and Dave! Get it here, on Apple Podcasts or go to Nearly.com.au Yeah, maybe don't get either out in public? Thinking Music Smoking Ad Campaign Link to the answer Wikipedia (best not to google the topics together if you're under 18) Support the podcasts you enjoy - check out Lenny.fm More about the show - www.nearly.com.au/somehow-related-podcast-with-glenn-robbins-and-dave-oneil/ Somehow Related is produced by Nearly Media. Original theme music by Kit Warhurst. Artwork created by Stacy Gougoulis. Looking for another podcast? The Debrief with Dave O'Neil - Dave's other podcasts with comedians after gigs. The Junkees with Dave O'Neil & Kitty Flanagan - The sweet and salty roundabout! Junk food abounds!Support on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Listen now: Spotify, Apple and YouTubeWhat actually changes inside a product and engineering org when a company commits to becoming AI-native—not as a side project, but as the new operating system?In this episode of Supra Insider, Marc and Ben sit down with Gaurav Hardikar, VP of Product at HomeLight, to unpack the company's ambitious transformation: an executive team hackathon, ten AI initiatives across tech debt and product debt, and a completely new way of scoping, shipping, and collaborating across product, engineering, and design.Gaurav walks through how HomeLight reshaped their workflows to move dramatically faster, built an AI-powered scoping assistant that consolidates inputs across functions, and created a shared “source of truth” that removes one of the biggest product bottlenecks—misalignment.He also introduces a brand-new role inside the org: the AI Product Builder—what it is, why PMs can't do all of it, and the skills that separate great builders from average ones as AI-native development becomes standard.Whether you're a product leader trying to accelerate your roadmap, an engineer rethinking how AI changes execution, or a PM who wants to understand what skills will still matter in an AI-native world, this episode gives a practical, inside-the-org look at what real transformation requires.All episodes of the podcast are also available on Spotify, Apple and YouTube.New to the pod? Subscribe below to get the next episode in your inbox

Alexander Embiricos leads product on Codex, OpenAI's powerful coding agent, which has grown 20x since August and now serves trillions of tokens weekly. Before joining OpenAI, Alexander spent five years building a pair programming product for engineers. He now works at the frontier of AI-led software development, building what he describes as a software engineering teammate—an AI agent designed to participate across the entire development lifecycle.We discuss:1. Why Codex has grown 20x since launch and what product decisions unlocked this growth2. How OpenAI built the Sora Android app in just 18 days using Codex3. Why the real bottleneck to AGI-level productivity isn't model capability—it's human typing speed4. The vision of AI as a proactive teammate, not just a tool you prompt5. The bottleneck shifting from building to reviewing AI-generated work6. Why coding will be a core competency for every AI agent—because writing code is how agents use computers best—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lennyFin—The #1 AI agent for customer service: https://fin.ai/lennyJira Product Discovery—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imc—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-humans-are-ais-biggest-bottleneck—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180365355/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Alexander Embiricos:• X: https://x.com/embirico• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/embirico—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Alexander Embiricos (05:13) The speed and ambition at OpenAI(11:34) Codex: OpenAI's coding agent(15:43) Codex's explosive growth(24:59) The future of AI and coding agents(33:11) The impact of AI on engineering(44:08) How Codex has impacted the way PMs operate(45:40) Throwaway code and ubiquitous coding(47:10) Shipping the Sora Android app(49:01) Building the Atlas browser(53:34) Codex's impact on productivity(55:35) Measuring progress on Codex(58:09) Why they are building a web browser(01:01:58) Non-engineering use cases for Codex(01:02:53) Codex's capabilities(01:04:49) Tips for getting started with Codex(01:05:37) Skills to lean into in the AI age(01:10:36) How far are we from a human version of AI?(01:13:31) Hiring and team growth at Codex(01:15:47) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• OpenAI: https://openai.com• Codex: https://openai.com/codex• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley• Dropbox: http://dropbox.com• Datadog: https://www.datadoghq.com• Andrej Karpathy on X: https://x.com/karpathy• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Atlas: https://openai.com/index/introducing-chatgpt-atlas• How Block is becoming the most AI-native enterprise in the world | Dhanji R. Prasanna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-block-is-becoming-the-most-ai-native• Goose: https://block.xyz/inside/block-open-source-introduces-codename-goose• Lessons on building product sense, navigating AI, optimizing the first mile, and making it through the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe, Behance): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-on-building-product-sense• Sora Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.openai.sora&hl=en_US&pli=1• The OpenAI Podcast—ChatGPT Atlas and the next era of web browsing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdbgNC80PMw&list=PLOXw6I10VTv9GAOCZjUAAkSVyW2cDXs4u&index=2• How to measure AI developer productivity in 2025 | Nicole Forsgren: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-measure-ai-developer-productivity• Compiling: https://3d.xkcd.com/303• Jujutsu Kaisen on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81278456• Tesla: https://www.tesla.com• Radical Candor: From theory to practice with author Kim Scott: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/radical-candor-from-theory-to-practice• Andreas Embirikos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Embirikos• George Embiricos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Embiricos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Embiricos—Recommended books:• Culture series: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WLZZ9WV• The Lord of the Rings: https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0544003411• A Fire Upon the Deep (Zones of Thought series Book 1): https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Upon-Deep-Zones-Thought/dp/1250237750• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Steve, Miss Beka Sue, Lenny, Joe & Matt M. talk about some of wild bourbon things that have happened to them. TBD music by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).   Important Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theabvnetwork Our Events Page: bourbonpalooza.com Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. The ABV Barrel Shop: abvbarrelshop.com   Join the revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile on social media.

Epic journeys, timeless songs, and Rick Wakeman's Preludes to a Century as our Featured Album. Roman, Trevor, and Lenny guide you through Yes classics, solo gems, and hidden treasures.1. Maazo Maazo – Jon Anderson (Toltec) 2. Starship Trooper – Yes (The Yes Album)3. Sun Carnival – Steve Howe (Homebrew 2)4. Al Gatto Nero – Asia (XXX)5. Prelude to a Millennium – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century) 6. Seasons of Change – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century)7. Youth & Age – Jon Anderson (Words/Music – Sir John Betjeman & Mike Read)8. I've Seen All Good People – Yes (Union 30 Live, Wembley Arena – June 29, 1991)9. End of an Era – Billy Sherwood (Divided By One)10. Forever More – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century) 11. From the Balcony – Yes (Open Your Eyes, 1997)12. New New World – Jon Anderson (Survival & Other Stories, 2011)13. La Segunda Oración – Cielo y Tierra feat. Jon Anderson14. Coda – Tony Levin feat. Linnea Olsson (Bringing It Down to the Bass, 2014)15. 285 Fulton Street – Tony Kaye (End of Innocence, 2021) 16. Georgia – Trevor Rabin (Rio, 1981)17. Only a Dream – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century)18. Skin Deep – Downes Braide Association (Skyscraper Souls, 2017)19. Mood for a Day – Steve Howe (Not Necessarily Acoustic, 1994)20. Reflections of a Winter's Day – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century) 21. The Dancing Piano – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century)22. Heat of the Moment – Steve Hackett (The Tokyo Tapes, 1997)23. Onward – Yes (Tormato, 1978)24. You By My Side – Chris Squire (Fish Out of Water, 1975)25. A New Dawn – Rick Wakeman (Preludes to a Century)

Feature Act We're going to try the Golden Gaytime Biscuits with our very own gay Double Dip (before they expire - thank you for sending them, Sue Cody!!!). Early on - Ice-cream recommendations Ben and Jerry's Triple Caramel Chunk (Kitty) Bulla Murray Street Ice Creamery – Choc Mint Sundae (Kitty) Norco Byron Bay Vanilla Bean (Glenn Butcher) Christmas Time! Natural Confectionary Company Christmas Party Mix Festive Share Bag Nestle Festive Choc Bites (similar to the Ye Olde Scorched Almods in the box!) Just Get Some - Haigh's doing mini milk mint bars. Track it down! Ok, Boodles. It's something from Ballarat, Springhill Farm, the best thing. You can get Boodles in Woolworths - a cluster of nuts and other things. Pretzel flavour is the best, then hundreds and thousands, then hazelnut. Into the Santa Sack! Cadbury Christmas Treat Sized Pieces Yowies. Solid chocolate. Dairy Milk Baubles M&M in festive colours (tastes the same) The Milky Bar Gingerbread flavoured smash Allens - Giant Festive Freckle Facebook Group for The Junkees is here. About The Junkees on Nearly.com.au Follow Kitty! Instagram / Facebook / YouTube Follow Dave! Twitter / Facebook Support the podcasts you enjoy - go to Lenny.fm Tell a friend about the show or leave a review wherever you can. Get in touch with a suggestion for Dave and Kitty - hi@nearly.com.auSupport on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Feature Act We're going to try the Golden Gaytime Biscuits with our very own gay Double Dip (before they expire - thank you for sending them, Sue Cody!!!). Early on - Ice-cream recommendations Ben and Jerry's Triple Caramel Chunk (Kitty) Bulla Murray Street Ice Creamery – Choc Mint Sundae (Kitty) Norco Byron Bay Vanilla Bean (Glenn Butcher) Christmas Time! Natural Confectionary Company Christmas Party Mix Festive Share Bag Nestle Festive Choc Bites (similar to the Ye Olde Scorched Almods in the box!) Just Get Some - Haigh's doing mini milk mint bars. Track it down! Ok, Boodles. It's something from Ballarat, Springhill Farm, the best thing. You can get Boodles in Woolworths - a cluster of nuts and other things. Pretzel flavour is the best, then hundreds and thousands, then hazelnut. Into the Santa Sack! Cadbury Christmas Treat Sized Pieces Yowies. Solid chocolate. Dairy Milk Baubles M&M in festive colours (tastes the same) The Milky Bar Gingerbread flavoured smash Allens - Giant Festive Freckle Facebook Group for The Junkees is here. About The Junkees on Nearly.com.au Follow Kitty! Instagram / Facebook / YouTube Follow Dave! Twitter / Facebook Support the podcasts you enjoy - go to Lenny.fm Tell a friend about the show or leave a review wherever you can. Get in touch with a suggestion for Dave and Kitty - hi@nearly.com.auSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Feature Act We're going to try the Golden Gaytime Biscuits with our very own gay Double Dip (before they expire - thank you for sending them, Sue Cody!!!). Early on - Ice-cream recommendations Ben and Jerry's Triple Caramel Chunk (Kitty) Bulla Murray Street Ice Creamery – Choc Mint Sundae (Kitty) Norco Byron Bay Vanilla Bean (Glenn Butcher) Christmas Time! Natural Confectionary Company Christmas Party Mix Festive Share Bag Nestle Festive Choc Bites (similar to the Ye Olde Scorched Almods in the box!) Just Get Some - Haigh's doing mini milk mint bars. Track it down! Ok, Boodles. It's something from Ballarat, Springhill Farm, the best thing. You can get Boodles in Woolworths - a cluster of nuts and other things. Pretzel flavour is the best, then hundreds and thousands, then hazelnut. Into the Santa Sack! Cadbury Christmas Treat Sized Pieces Yowies. Solid chocolate. Dairy Milk Baubles M&M in festive colours (tastes the same) The Milky Bar Gingerbread flavoured smash Allens - Giant Festive Freckle Facebook Group for The Junkees is here. About The Junkees on Nearly.com.au Follow Kitty! Instagram / Facebook / YouTube Follow Dave! Twitter / Facebook Support the podcasts you enjoy - go to Lenny.fm Tell a friend about the show or leave a review wherever you can. Get in touch with a suggestion for Dave and Kitty - hi@nearly.com.auSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

no inserted ads: www.patreon.com/dopeypodcastThis Week on a super classic episode of Dopey! Dave is visited by local Long Islander - Will P. AKA Hairy Tongue Will. Dave opens the show drinking Ryze mushroom coffee while talking about how cold his recording room is. He announces that Dopey will be releasing five episodes per week throughout December, including replays, Patreon teasers, deep cuts, and new interviews.He gives sobriety shoutouts — notably Lauren's three-year milestone and Maddie Veitch from Leftover Salmon celebrating her own recovery marker. He encourages listeners to email in clean-time milestones for future episodes.Dave then goes through a lengthy run of Spotify comments left on the Darrell Hammond episode. The comments range from people complaining about the “This or That” game, others defending it, jokes about possums, encouragement about psychedelics, questions about whether Darrell is truly sober, praise for the episode, frustration with the interview pacing, random remarks about Lime Drive and “Mike's Amazing Stuff,” plus multiple requests for stickers. Dave reads each comment and jokes along, sometimes offering to send merch.Ads for Mountainside and Link Diagnostics follow. Dave talks about how Mountainside is central to the history of Dopey and how Link Diagnostics offers drug testing services that help people “stay positive and test negative.”Dave then plays an LSD voicemail from Henry in San Francisco, who took two hits of acid alone in college. Henry becomes one with his bicycle, panics at a house fumigation tent he interprets as a circus, fears he'll be mutated by pesticides, runs home, listens to the Butthole Surfers, sees Aztec gods appearing from shifting ceiling patterns, and eventually rides it out. He is now 15 months sober and credits Dopey Nation for support.Next he reads an email from Jerry, who describes crazy addiction history including fighting cops on PCP, overdoses, ventilators, and robbing heroin dealers. Jerry discovered Dopey by typing “heroin” into the podcast search bar while newly out of rehab in 2018. His biggest complaint is that Dave has never watched Joe Dirt.The episode opens with your intro, then the bulk of the show is Hairy Tongue Will's massive, chaotic, detailed telling of his addiction, near-death runs, arrests, relapse cycles, dead friends, and eventual recovery.Will describes the early Long Island chaos with Richie, Mike, and Lenny—everyone strung out on heroin, crack, coke, and whatever they could get. He recalls the first serious turn: showing up to a house where Lenny was passed out after a three-day crack run, realizing “the demons are taking over.” Mike and Richie spiral deeper, and Will keeps managing to “hold it together” thanks to jobs, work ethic, and a strange electrical-job stabilizer that kept him semi-functional.He details years of DUIs, probation, manipulating drug tests, smoking crack constantly while still working 16-hour electrician shifts, and thriving socially because coworkers lived vicariously through him. He normalized chaos, missing only “one no-call/no-show every two weeks,” which he considered acceptable.Will then dives into his first short attempt at stability, living in a basement apartment. His probation officer surprises him the day after a holiday: the apartment is filled with beer cans, bongs, baggies. He fails the test, is sent back to rehab/jail cycles, and explains why Long Island addicts often choose jail over treatment. He describes his surreal time in jail—being sent to the Montauk Lighthouse on work crews, eating egg sandwiches and black-and-milds with the guards, becoming “the useful guy,” actually feeling respected and purposeful.Back outside, he tries again, fails again, collects DUIs, cycles through companies, loses jobs, hustles side work, and repeatedly relapses. A wedding night leads to another DUI. COVID hits while he's in jail. He gets out, starts working nonstop, earns money, piles cash in a closet, stacks crypto, reads self-help books, sleeps on a mattress on the floor, becomes obsessed with success and control.Then he meets a girl in Tennessee. He drinks again “successfully” only when he flies there. He builds a double life—working himself numb, drinking out of state, convincing himself he's different.Eventually, on a work trip, he gambles, wins big, drinks an old fashioned, and secretly cooks his boss's cocaine into crack. This reignites the obsession. Will starts traveling the Northeast and Midwest, repeatedly pulling crack-seeking missions: gas stations, high-crime neighborhoods, asking strangers, “I'm looking for some hard.” He builds drug contacts in Bridgeport, Dayton, Maine, Virginia, wherever the job sends him. He smokes in hotels, hallucinates blood on floors, changes rooms repeatedly.He recounts the deaths of friends:Mike, whose father turned their home into a sheet-walled trap house with dealers and bikers living inside.How Mike died with his father selling sneakers off his dead son's body.Richie, who got sober then died of fentanyl after nearly two years clean.Will's life collapses further—obsession, resentment toward God, jealousy, terminal uniqueness. He becomes a “demon,” wanting to die like his friends. He terrifies his girlfriend with delusional FaceTimes, nine-day runs, psychosis. She moves in without knowing the truth and becomes trapped in codependency.He stays high for 26 straight days, manipulates her with antihistamine allergy episodes to cover his psychosis, hides crack pipes around the house with ring cameras everywhere. He finally admits some truth, gives her $5,000 to escape, but she stays another nine months.He tells insane stories:Pretending he's a trust-fund baby to get free crackGetting shot at by a dealer after a misunderstanding over “two grams” vs “two ounces”Driving through wooded roads barefoot at gas stationsDealers trying to jump himBecoming a mule for a recently-released dealer (Ace)Near misses, violence, and pure street insanityEventually, during a pickup, he gets chased, prays for police lights, and his car breaks down. Cops descend. He gets a mountain of charges (“five decades worth”). He thinks he'll die in prison. Bail reform gets him released. He immediately uses again for 17 more days.A sober lawyer tries pushing him toward St. Christopher's. Will resists, manipulates LICR, relapses again, cancels his own insurance, tries to die, and after weeks of chaos his mother gets him re-approved. He enters St. Chris, still delusional, still dangerous.There he breaks. He admits suicidal thoughts, gets a guard stationed outside his door, hears the blunt truth—you're the worst-off guy here and you did this to yourself. It lands. Will begins working the program: spiritual direction, grief groups, codependency, meetings, kitchen duty, everything. He reconnects with his mother in sobriety. He attends court in suits provided by the facility and ultimately receives an unexpectedly generous plea deal.He comes home early, tries to run his own program, stays sober for months, but on Mother's Day runs into an old acquaintance who shows him a Newport box with a pipe inside. He relapses immediately for three days, misses Mother's Day entirely.That night, suicidal again, he receives a series of calls: first from Jordan, then from his tough sponsor, who gives him clear direction—go to a sober house, go to daily groups, go to nightly meetings, call people, build structure. Will frauds his urine to get in, but once inside, follows every instruction. He stabilizes.He recounts being 18 months sober now, having been at meetings nearly every night, with a recent slip in commitment due to chasing an “intimate partner godshot” that didn't work out. You reassure him that it's fine and that balance is part of recovery.More or less thats the whole thing! On a brand new fucko, crackead episode of that good old dopey show! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Steve, Miss Beka Sue, Lenny, Joe & Matt M. talk about some of our personal weird bourbon traditions. TBD music by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).   Important Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theabvnetwork Our Events Page: bourbonpalooza.com Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. The ABV Barrel Shop: abvbarrelshop.com   Join the revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile on social media.

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Steve, Miss Beka Sue, Lenny, Joe & Matt M. talk about what ChatGPT says about Steve Akley. TBD music by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).   Important Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theabvnetwork Our Events Page: bourbonpalooza.com Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. The ABV Barrel Shop: abvbarrelshop.com   Join the revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile on social media.

What struck me most in my conversation with author Jennifer Shaw is how often we underestimate the power of understanding our own story. Jennifer grew up sensing she was different, yet never had the words for why. Hearing her share how a late diagnosis of autism and ADHD finally helped her trust her own voice reminded me how important it is for all of us to feel seen. As she talked about raising two autistic sons, finding healing through writing, and learning to drop the shame she carried for so long, I found myself thinking about the many people who still hide their struggles because they don't want to be judged. I believe listeners will connect deeply with Jennifer's honesty. She shows that creativity can grow out of the very things we once thought were flaws, and that resilience is something we build each time we choose to show up as ourselves. This episode reminded me why I created Unstoppable Mindset: to hold space for stories like hers—stories that help us see difference as strength and encourage us to build a world where every person is valued for who they truly are. Highlights: 01:33 – See how early misunderstandings can shape the way someone learns to navigate people and communication.06:53 – Learn how masking and observation influence the way neurodivergent adults move through the world.11:21 – Explore how parenting experiences can open the door to understanding your own identity.12:20 – Hear how finally naming a lifelong pattern can shift shame into clarity and self-trust.20:46 – Understand why self-doubt becomes a major barrier and how stepping forward can change that story.25:57 – Discover how personal journeys can naturally weave themselves into creative work and character building.29:01 – Gain insight into why creative careers grow through endurance rather than rapid wins.30:55 – Learn how creative practices can act as grounding tools when life becomes overwhelming.33:20 – Explore how willpower and environment work together in building real resilience.40:23 – See how focusing only on limitations can keep society from recognizing real strengths.45:27 – Consider how acceptance over “fixing” creates more space for people to thrive.46:53 – Hear why embracing difference can open a more confident and creative way of living.51:07 – Learn how limiting beliefs can restrict creativity and how widening your lens can unlock growth.59:38 – Explore how curiosity and lived experience fuel a deeper creative imagination. About the Guest: J. M. Shaw lives in Alberta, Canada, with her husband and two young children. She has been writing for most of her life, though it took years to find the courage to share her stories. What began as a childhood hobby evolved into a passion that, at times, borders on obsession—and is decidedly cheaper than therapy. Though initially interested in teaching and psychology, Shaw ultimately graduated and worked as an X-ray technologist—all the while continuing to write in secret. Through it all, storytelling remained her constant: a sanctuary, a compass, and a way to make sense of the chaos. Her early work filled journals and notebooks, then spilled into typewritten manuscripts and laptop hard drives—worlds crafted from raw imagination and quiet observation. A pivotal turning point came in 2019, when Shaw was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The news brought clarity to a lifetime of feeling “too much” or “too different.” She realized that her intense focus, emotional depth, and ability to live inside fictional worlds weren't flaws—they were the gifts of a neurodivergent mind. Her unique insights allow her to create characters with emotional realism, while her mythical creatures, societies, and belief systems draw inspiration from both history and modern culture. In many ways, her fantasy series mirrors her own arc: navigating society through the lens of autism, embracing her differences, and discovering where she belongs. Shaw's fiction blends magic with meaning, often exploring themes of identity, resilience, and redemption. Though her worlds are fantastical, her stories remain grounded in human truths. Her characters—flawed, searching, and sometimes broken—feel eerily real. Literary influences like Stephen King, Margaret Atwood, and Dean Koontz helped shape her genre-bending style, while her mother—an English major and blunt-but-honest critic—instilled in her a love of classic literature and the drive to become a better storyteller. In 2021, Shaw released The Ascension, the first book in her fantasy-adventure series, The Callum Walker Series. Since then, she's published three sequels, with dozens of short stories, poems, and manuscripts still in her vault. Though painfully introverted, she attends book signings and author talks to connect with readers—shedding ecstatic tears as they share how deeply her work resonates with them. While these moments can be overwhelming, they remind her why she writes: to create stories that matter. Currently, Shaw is working on the fifth installment of The Callum Walker Series, expanding the emotional arcs and raising the stakes in her imagined realms. Alongside it, she is developing a new dystopian-adventure that blends inequality, rebellion, love, and moral complexity. Whether indie or traditionally published, her dream remains the same: to see her books in bookstores across the world and to keep building worlds for those who need them most. Ways to connect with Jennifer**:** Website: www.jmshawauthor.com Facebook: jmshawauthor Instagram: @jmshaw_author About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And we put it that way, because a lot of diversity people never address the issue of or include people with disabilities in their world, and some of us confront that, and I specifically take the approach you either are inclusive or you're not. There's no partial inclusion. So we put inclusion at the first part of unstoppable mindset, then diversity and the unexpected, which is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, but it makes it kind of fun anyway, and we're glad that you're here, wherever you happen to be listening or watching, the Podcast. Today, we get to chat with Jennifer Shaw. Jennifer is an author, and she's been a a closet writer part of her life, but but she came out of the closet and has been publishing, which is cool, and she has a lot of other stories to tell, unstoppable in a lot of different ways. So I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun talking today, and I hope that you learn some interesting and relevant concepts to your world. So Jennifer, thanks for being here and for being on unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate you coming. Jennifer Shaw  02:36 Thank you so much for having me. Well, Michael Hingson  02:38 why don't we start at the beginning, and why don't you tell us about kind of the early Jennifer, early Jennifer, Jennifer Shaw  02:44 so I was very much of an introvert, very shy. I didn't really know how to talk to people. Kind of was trying to figure things out, and was having, was having a hard time figuring things out, and became more of a misfit. And I needed a way of dealing with, you know, my misunderstandings. I came became very much a people watcher, and for a while, that worked, but I needed an outlet in order to be able to analyze and sort out my ideas. And then my mom bought me a typewriter because, you know, I'm that old. And I started, I know about typewriters? Yeah, and I started writing as a hobby, and then it became a passion and obsession. Now it's just cheaper than therapy. And in 2019 I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which makes total sense, looking back at all the things that I used to do and the way I felt, it makes sense now, and I thought I never shared any of my stories, but I've been writing by that point for over 30 years. And I thought, well, maybe writing is my special interest. And I got brave, and I sent off my first book in my series. It's now published because I just finished that one at the time to an editor, and I'm thinking, well, the worst they can say is it sucks. And my editor came back and said, This doesn't suck. You should publish. So two years later, I did Michael Hingson  04:05 cool well. So of course, one of the big questions, one of the most important ones of the whole day, is, do you still have the typewriter? No, yeah, I know. I don't know what happened to mine either. It is. It has gone away somewhere. Jennifer Shaw  04:19 Mine was really cool. It was a plug in electrical one had a white out strip and everything. I gave a presentation for grade five classroom, and I told them, I got started on a typewriter, and then I was going into how I got published, and different aspects of fiction writing and and plots and character development, that stuff and that, after an hour and a half, the only questions they had to ask was, what's a typewriter? Michael Hingson  04:43 Typewriter, of course, if you really want to delve into history and be fascinating to learn the history of the typewriter, do you know it? Jennifer Shaw  04:51 No, I do not. Michael Hingson  04:53 So the among other things, one of the first ways a typewriter was developed and used was. Was a countess in Europe who had a husband who didn't pay much attention to her. So she had a lover, and she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover. She is blind, and so she couldn't just have people write down messages and relay them and all that. So somebody invented this machine where she could actually create messages with a keyboard a typewriter, and then seal them, and she could get her ladies in waiting, or whoever to to give them to her, her lover. That was her way to communicate with with him, without her husband finding out. Yeah, so the ultimate note taker, the ultimate note taker, I learned to type. Well, I started to learn at home, and then between seventh and eighth grade, I took some summer school courses, just cuz it was something to do, and one of them was typing, and I didn't even think about the fact that all the other kids in the class kept complaining because they didn't know what letters they were pushing because there were no labels on the keys, which didn't bother me a bit. And so I typed then, I don't know. I assume it still is required out here, but in the eighth grade, you have to pass a test on the US Constitution, and for me to be able to take the test, they got the test transcribed into Braille, and then I brought my typewriter in and typed the answers. I guess. I don't know why they didn't just have me speak to someone, but I'm glad they did it that way. So it was fine. I'm sure it was a little bit noisy for the other kids in the class, but the typewriter wasn't too noisy. But, yeah, I typed all the answers and went from there. So that was kind of cool, but I don't remember what happened to the typewriter over the years. Jennifer Shaw  06:52 I think it gave way to keyboards and, you know, online writing programs. Michael Hingson  06:58 Yeah, I'm sure that it did, but I don't know what happened to my typewriter nevertheless, but oh well. But yeah, I did, and keyboards and everything else. But having used the typewriter, I already knew how to type, except for learning a few keys. Well, even mine was a manual typewriter. And then there was a Braille typewriter created by IBM. It's called the Model D, and it was like a regular typewriter, except instead of letters on the the keys that went up and struck the paper, it was actually braille characters and it and it struck hard enough that it actually created braille characters on the paper. So that was, that was kind of fun. But, yeah, I'm sure it all just kind of went to keyboards and everything else and and then there were word processors, and now it's just all computers. Jennifer Shaw  07:53 Yep, yep. We're a digital age. Michael Hingson  07:55 Nowadays. We are very much a digital age. So you went to to regular school and all that, yep, Jennifer Shaw  08:04 and I was never like I was it was never noticed that I was struggling because, I mean, for the most part, women tend to mask it. That's why less, fewer women are diagnosed than men. I just internalized it, and I came up with my own strategies to deal with things, and unless you were disruptive to class or you had some sort of learning difficulties and stuff, you never really got any attention. So I just sort of disappeared, because I never struggled in school and I was just the shy one. Yeah, taught myself how to communicate with other kids by taking notes of conversations. I have notebooks where I'm like, okay, so and so said this. This was the answer, okay, there was a smile. So that must be what I need to say when somebody says that. So I developed a script for myself in order to be able to socialize. Michael Hingson  08:55 And that was kind of the way you you masked it, or that was part of masking it. Jennifer Shaw  09:00 That was part of masking it. I spent a lot of time people watching so that I could blend in a lot more, kind of trying to figure it out. I felt like I was an alien dropped off on this planet and that somebody forgot to give me the script. And, you know, I was trying to figure things out as I went. Michael Hingson  09:15 Well, maybe that's actually what happened, and they'll come back and pick you up someday, maybe, but then you can beat up on them because they didn't leave a script. Jennifer Shaw  09:25 Yeah, you guys left me here with no instructions, Michael Hingson  09:27 or you were supposed to create the instructions because they were clueless. There's that possibility, you know, Jennifer Shaw  09:33 maybe I was like, you know, patient X or something, Michael Hingson  09:37 the advanced model, as it were. So you, you went through school, you went through high school, and all that. You went to college. Jennifer Shaw  09:45 I did, yes, yeah, I went through I was going to be a teacher, but they were doing the teacher strike at that time, and that I was doing my observation practicum. And I was like, I don't know if that's something I want to go into. I'm glad I didn't. And. Instead, you know, I mean, I had an interest in psychology, and I took some psychology classes, and loved them. It intrigues me how the mind works. But I ended up going into a trade school I went to in Alberta. It's the, it's called an innate northern Alberta Institute of Technology, and I became an x ray technologist, and I worked in that field for many years. Michael Hingson  10:22 Did you enjoy it? I loved it. I love that I Jennifer Shaw  10:25 didn't have to, you know, like, yes, you have to work in an environment where you got other people there, but you can still work independently and, and I loved that. And I love this. I've always been very much a science math geek, you know, things numbers. I have a propensity for numbers and and then science and math, just, you know, they were fun. Michael Hingson  10:45 Yeah, well, I agree, having a master's degree in physics and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I appreciate what you're saying. It's interesting. I would think also, as an x ray technician, although you had to give people instructions as to where to position themselves and all that. It wasn't something where you had to be very conversationally intensive, necessarily, Jennifer Shaw  11:07 yeah, and I mean, people didn't, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time with each patient, and I was able to mask a lot of my awkwardness and stuff and short short bursts, so nobody really noticed. And, you know, I had fun with the science part of it. And, yeah, it just it was never noticed. Although the social aspects, interacting with co workers and stuff, was bit difficult after, you know, outside of the actual tasks, that was interesting. Michael Hingson  11:38 I have a friend who just recently graduated from school learning to be an x ray technician. And I tease her all the time and tell her, you got to really be careful, though, because those x rays can slip out of your grasp if you're not careful, that you just never know when one's going to try to sneak away. So you better keep an eye on them and slap it when it does. Yeah, go catch them. I sent her an email last week saying, I just heard on the news an x ray escape from your hospital. What are you doing to catch it? They're fun, yeah, but, but you, but you did all of that, and then, so how long were you an x ray technician Jennifer Shaw  12:22 a little over 10 years I retired once my kids were born, Michael Hingson  12:27 okay, you had a more, well, a bigger and probably more important job to do that way, Jennifer Shaw  12:36 yes, and I mean, like at the time, we didn't know that both my boys would be, you Know, diagnosed on the spectrum, both of them have anxiety and ADHD, but I just, I was struggling with with work and being a mom, and it, in all honesty, it was going to cost me more for childcare than it was for me to just stay home. Michael Hingson  13:00 How did your so when they were diagnosed, what did your husband think Jennifer Shaw  13:04 my husband was? He says, okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, I can see those things and stuff like that. And I know when from my perspective, because both my boys went through the ADOS assessment, my thoughts were, those are the things you're looking for, because I've done those my whole life. And then, so, like, my oldest was diagnosed in like, June or July, and I received my diagnosis that September, and then my littlest guy was diagnosed the following year. Michael Hingson  13:29 You went through the assessment, and that's how you discovered it. Yep. So how old were you when they when they found it? Jennifer Shaw  13:35 Oh, I don't know if I want to give ages. I was just under 40. Okay. Michael Hingson  13:40 Well, the reason I asked was, as we talked a little bit about before we actually started the recording, I've had a number of people on the podcast who learned that they were on the spectrum. They were diagnosed later in life. I've talked to people who were 40 and even, I think, one or two above, but it just is fascinating to learn how many people actually were diagnosed later in life. And I know that part of it has to do with the fact that we've just gotten a lot smarter about autism and ADHD and so on, which which helps. So I think that that makes a lot of sense that you can understand why people were diagnosed later in life, and in every case, what people have said is that they're so relieved they have an answer they know, and it makes them feel so much better about themselves. Jennifer Shaw  14:36 Yeah, I know for myself, once I was diagnosed, I've never really kept it a secret. I've, you know, I I've given myself permission to ask questions if I'm confused, and then it opens up the doors for other people, like I will, I will tell them, like some things I don't understand, like I don't understand sarcasm. It's difficult. I can give it I don't understand when somebody is being sarcastic to me, and there's some idioms. And jokes that I that just they weigh over my head, so I'm giving myself permission to ask if I'm confused, because otherwise, how will I know? Michael Hingson  15:11 Yeah, it's it's pretty fascinating, and people deal with it in different ways. It's almost like being dyslexic, the same sort of concept you're dealing with, something where it's totally different and you may not even understand it at first, but so many people who realize they're dyslexic or have dyslexia, find ways to deal with it, and most people never even know, yeah, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  15:39 Well, I mean, I've like, not this year, but within the last couple years, I've been diagnosed with dyslexia as well. And then come to find out that my father had it as well, but he just never mentioned. It just never came up. Michael Hingson  15:51 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's pretty fascinating. But human the human psyche and the human body are very malleable, and we can get creative and deal with a lot of stuff, but I think the most important thing is that you figure out and you learn how to deal with it, and you don't make it something that is a negative in your life. It's the way you are. I've talked many times to people, and of course, it comes from me in part, from the being in the World Trade Center. Don't worry about the thing you can't control. And the fact is that autism is there, you're aware of it, and you deal with it, and maybe the day will come when we can learn to control it, but now at least you know what you're dealing with. And that's the big issue, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  16:39 And I think it like you hit it on the nail on the head, is like, the reason so many adults are being diagnosed is because we know more about it. I distinctly remember somebody asking me shortly after I was diagnosed, and they asked me specifically, oh, what's it like to be autistic? And I was like, I don't know. What's it like to not be. It's all I know. You tell me what it's like to not be, and I can tell you what it's like to be. Says it's not something you can really, yeah, people just can't experience it, I guess. Michael Hingson  17:08 Well, people ask me a lot, what's it like to be blind, and what is it like that you're just live in the dark? Well, I don't live in the dark, and that's something that is so unfortunate that we believe that eyesight is the only game in town, or most people do, and the reality is, blindness isn't about darkness. So I don't see, all right, the problem with most people is they do see, and that doesn't work for them. When suddenly the power goes out and you don't have lights anymore. Why do you distinguish one from the other? It's so unfortunate that we do that, but unfortunately, we collectively haven't taught ourselves to recognize that everyone has gifts, and we need to allow people to to manifest their gifts and not negate them and not demean the people just because they're different than us. Jennifer Shaw  17:56 Yeah, and I know I've had I've had people tell me it's like, oh well, you don't look autistic, and I'm like, I don't know what you would expect me to look like, but I've honestly tried really hard not to think of of the autism and the ADHD. I tried really hard not to look at it as a disability. In my own life, I've looked at it as it's just my brain is wired differently. Yeah, I've explained this to my boys. It's, you know, our minds are always open. We can't filter anything that's coming in. And it's like our computer, you know, our brain, if you imagine our brain as being a computer, we've got every possible tab open trying to perform a million different tasks. We've got music playing here, video playing here. We're trying to search for this file. We can't find anything. And then every now and then, it just becomes very overwhelming, and we get the swirly wheel of death and we have to restart, yeah, but we can multitask like nobody's business until then well, and Michael Hingson  18:45 the reality is, most people can learn to do it, although focusing on one thing at a time is always better anyway, but still, I hear what you're saying. My favorite story is a guy wanted to sell me life insurance when I was in college, and I knew at the time that people who were blind or had other disabilities couldn't buy life insurance because the insurance companies decided that we're a higher risk. It turns out that they weren't making that decision based on any real evidence or data. They just assumed it because that's the way the world was, and eventually that was dealt with by law. But this guy called up one day and he said, I want to sell you life insurance. Well, I thought I'd give him a shot at it, so I invited him over, and he came at three in the afternoon, and I didn't tell him in advance. I was blind, so I go to the door with my guide dog at the time Holland, and I opened the door, and he said, I'm looking for Mike Hinkson. And I said, I'm Mike hingson. You are. I'm Michael Hinkson. What can I do for you? Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And I'm still wondering, what are the heck does that mean? Jennifer Shaw  19:52 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just, I think, you know, it's a lack of understanding. And. You know, the inability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes? Michael Hingson  20:03 Well, I think we have the ability, but we just don't, we don't learn how to use it. But you're right. It's all about education. And I think, personally, that all of us are teachers, or should be or can be. And so I choose not to take offense when somebody says you don't sound blind, or makes other kinds of comments. I i may push a little hard, but I can't be angry at them, because I know that it's all about ignorance, and they just don't know, and we as a society don't teach which we should do more of Jennifer Shaw  20:38 Yeah, I know that once I made, you know, like I posted on my, you know, with talk to my friends and stuff about the fact that I have autism and that I just, I'm learning about it myself as well. I've had a lot of people come to me and ask me, it's like, well, what, what? What did you notice? How did you find out? And I think I might be on the spectrum. And there's, you know, and it's amazing how many people came out of the woodwork with queries about, you know, questions. And I was like, This is awesome. I can answer questions and educate, yeah, Michael Hingson  21:09 well, and it's true, and the only way we can really learn and deal with some of the stuff is to have a conversation, and to have conversations with each other and be included in the conversation, and that's where it gets really comfortable, or uncomfortable is that people don't want to include you. Oh, I could end up like that person, or that person just clearly isn't, isn't as capable as I because they're blind or they have autism. Well, that's just not true, yeah, and it's, it's a challenge to deal with. Well, here's a question for you. What do you think is the biggest barrier that that people have or that they impose on themselves, and how do you move past it? Jennifer Shaw  21:52 I think that the biggest barrier that people pose on them, pose on themselves, is doubting whether or not they're worthwhile and and I know I did the lat I did that for many years and and, like I said, it wasn't until I received my diagnosis, I thought maybe, maybe, you know, I won't know unless I try. So I got out of my comfort zone, and I surpassed my doubt, and I tried, and then I come to find out that, okay, I should publish. And I've had some, you know, I've had a lot of fun doing that, and I've seen some success in that as well. Michael Hingson  22:24 One of my favorite quotes goes back to the original Star Wars movie Yoda, who said there is no try, do or do not. Don't try. I think that's absolutely true. Do it. That's why I also totally decided in the past to stop using the word failure, because failure is such an end all inappropriate thing. All right, so something didn't work out. The real question, and most of us don't learn to do it, although some of us are trying to teach them, but the biggest question is, why did this happen? What do I do about it? And we don't learn how to be introspective and analyze ourselves about that, I wrote a book that was published last year called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and it's all about teaching people from lessons I learned from my dogs about how to control fear and how to really step back when things happen and analyze what you do, what you fear, what you're about and how you deal with it. But there's no such thing as failure. It's just okay. This didn't work out right. Why? Why was I afraid? Or why am I afraid now? And what do I do about it? And we just don't see nearly as much analytical thinking on those kinds of subjects as we should. Jennifer Shaw  23:49 Yeah, wasn't there a quote somewhere? I can't remember who it was. I think was Edison, maybe, that he didn't fail 99 times. He found 99 times how not to do it right, and he just kept going and going and going until we got it right. Yeah. The other Michael Hingson  24:04 one I really like is the quote from Einstein that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing every time and expecting something different to happen. I think Jennifer Shaw  24:12 they said that at my graduation from high school, you'll get what you got, yeah, Michael Hingson  24:19 and you can decide to look for alternatives and look for ways to do it better, but, but it is, I think you're I don't know if it was Edison, but I'm going to assume it was who said that, but I think you're right, and it certainly makes a lot of Jennifer Shaw  24:35 sense, yes, yeah, and I've tried to live by embracing, because I've told this to my kids as well, and I've embraced the idea that, you know, we learn better from our mistakes than we do from the things we did right, Michael Hingson  24:49 although we could learn if we really thought about it, when we do something right and we go back and look at it and say, What could I have done to even make that better? And we usually don't do that well, that worked out well, so I don't have to worry about that. Well, exactly we should, you know, Jennifer Shaw  25:07 2020 looking back and saying, Well, what would we have done if this had happened? We just sort of stop. It's like when you're looking for your keys in your house. Once you find them, you stop looking. You don't keep looking for possible places it could have been. You just stop the journey. Michael Hingson  25:20 Or you don't look at why did I put them there? That's not where I usually put them. Speaker 1  25:26 Yeah, exactly, yeah. So when Michael Hingson  25:30 you discovered that you were on the spectrum, what did your husband think about Jennifer Shaw  25:34 that? He thought it made sense. Um, that Michael Hingson  25:37 explains a lot about you. Jennifer Shaw  25:38 Yeah, a little bit might be on the spectrum as well. He might be ADHD, because he has a lot of the same traits as me. But he says, yeah, it's kind of not worth going and getting it checked out and stuff like that so Michael Hingson  25:54 well, until he he wants to, then that probably makes sense. Jennifer Shaw  25:59 And there's no reason. There's no reason. Yeah, Michael Hingson  26:03 things go well, and that that's the big, important thing. But you look at at life, you look at what's going on, and you look at how you can change, what you need to change, and go forward Exactly. So tell me about your writing. You have, you have been writing a series. What did you do before the series? What was sort of the first things that you wrote that were published? Jennifer Shaw  26:26 That I wrote a short story for in a classroom assignment, my teacher published it. Wrote a couple poems. I had a teacher, a different teacher published those. But this, the series that I've written is kind of my first foray into publishing and stuff. And then just prior to that, it was just writing stories for myself, or writing scenes that came to to mind that I wanted to explore, and a lot of them had to do with characters overcoming adversity, because that's how I felt. That was what was going on in my life, Michael Hingson  26:57 and it was so what's the series about? Jennifer Shaw  27:03 So it's a magic, fantasy action adventure, some supernatural suspense kind of all sprinkled in for good measure, because I get bored of my series is there's our world, our time, coexisting magical realm, but there's a veil that separates us, and we can't see across this veil because we don't have magic. But these creatures that do can and have and they've been the source of inspiration for our fairy tales and Monster stories. And then my main character, a young man by the name of Callum Walker, is born with the ability to use magic. He doesn't know why. He's trying to make the most of it. We do learn why as we go through the series, but he doesn't know. And because he has magic, he's able to cross this veil into this magical realm. And he's learning about this world. He's learning about the beings in it. Adventures ensue, and we follow him through the series, trying to figure out as he's trying to figure out who he is, where he belongs, because he's too magic for here, but to human care and then master these abilities to survive. Michael Hingson  27:56 So has he figured out an answer to the question of why or where? Jennifer Shaw  28:00 Not yet. No answers as we go, but he's learning more. Mostly it's he's learning to accept himself and to start to trust and open up. And, you know, instead of thinking that there must be something wrong with him, and that's why he has these abilities, he starts to think, Okay, well, what can I do with these abilities and stuff? So in a lot of ways, his journey mirrors mine Michael Hingson  28:23 well, and he's asking questions, and as you ask questions, that's the most important thing you're willing to consider and explore, absolutely. So are these self published, or does a publisher publish them? Jennifer Shaw  28:40 I'm indie, published through press company called Maverick first press. Michael Hingson  28:44 Inc, have any of the books been converted to audio? Jennifer Shaw  28:48 Not yet, but I am looking into it. Michael Hingson  28:51 Some of us would like that I do read braille, and I could get a book in electronic form, and I can probably get it converted, but it'll be fun if you do get them into an audio format. I love magic and fantasy, and especially when it isn't too dark and too heavy. I've read Stephen King, but I've gotten away from reading a lot of Stephen King, just because I don't think I need things to be that dark. Although I am very impressed by what he does and how he comes up with these ideas, I'll never know. Jennifer Shaw  29:20 Yeah, I know. I don't think that it's as dark as Stephen King, but it's certainly a little darker and older than Harry Potter series. Michael Hingson  29:26 So, yeah, well, and and Harry Potter has been another one that has been certainly very good and has has encouraged a lot of kids to read. Yes and adults, Jennifer Shaw  29:42 yeah, we don't all have to be middle grade students to enjoy a middle 29:46 grade book, right? Michael Hingson  29:49 Oh, absolutely true. Well, so if you had to give one piece of advice or talk about experiences, to write. Writers who are trying to share, what would you what would you tell them? Jennifer Shaw  30:05 I would say that writing and publishing, it's a marathon. It's not a race. Don't expect immediate success. You have to work for it. But don't give up. You know? I mean, a lot of times we tend to give up too soon, when we don't see results and stuff. But if you give up, you'll never reach the finish line if you continue going, you may, you know, eventually you'll reach the finish line, and maybe not what you expect, but you will reach that finish line if you keep going. Michael Hingson  30:30 Yeah, we we are taught all too often to give up way too early. Well, it didn't work, so obviously it's not the right answer. Well, maybe it was the right answer. Most people aren't. JK Rowling, but at the same time, she went through a lot before she started getting her books published, but they're very creative. Yep, I would, I would still like to see a new series of Harry Potter books. Well, there is a guy who wrote James Potter his son, who's written a series, which is pretty good, but, you know, they're fun, yeah. Jennifer Shaw  31:07 Oh, I mean, that's why we like to read them. We like to imagine, we like to, you know, put ourselves in the shoes of, you know, the superhero. And I think that we all kind of, you know, feel a connection to those unlikely heroes that aren't perfect. And I think that appeals to a lot of people. Michael Hingson  31:27 I think it certainly does. I mean, that's clearly a lot of Harry Potter. He was certainly a kid who was different. Couldn't figure out why, and wasn't always well understood, but he worked at it, and that is something that we all can take a lesson to learn. Speaker 1  31:45 Exactly yes. So Michael Hingson  31:48 given everything that goes on with you, if the world feels overwhelming at some point, what kind of things do you do to ground yourself or or get calm again? Jennifer Shaw  31:59 Well, writing is my self care. It's my outlet. It's therapy. Aside from writing, I I'm getting back into reading because I'm going to book signing events and talks and such, and everybody's recommending, oh, read this book, read this book, and I'm finding some hidden gems out there. So I'm getting back into reading, and that seems to be very relaxing, but I do go. I do have to step away from a lot of people sometimes and just be by myself. And I'll, I'll put my headphones on, and I'll listen to my my track. I guess it's not track anymore. It was Spotify. And I'll just go for a walk for an hour, let my mind wander like a video and see where it leads me, and then come back an hour later, and my husband's like, Oh, where'd you walk? Because, like, I have no idea, but you should hear the adventures I had, yeah, Michael Hingson  32:44 both from what you read and what you thought Jennifer Shaw  32:45 about, yeah, just the things going through my head. What? And then the same thing when I'm writing, I see it as a movie in my head, and I'm just writing down what I see a lot of times, long for the ride. Michael Hingson  32:55 Yeah, your characters are writing it, and you're just there, Jennifer Shaw  32:58 yeah, you know. And when I'm when I'm in the zone. I call those the zone moments. And I won't know what's going to happen until it starts to happen. And I'm writing a sentence, oh, I didn't know that was gonna happen. I want to see where this goes. And it'll take me to somewhere where I'm like, wow, that's an amazing scene. How could I, how did I think of that? Or, on the contrary, it'll take me somewhere and I'll be like, What is wrong with me? I know that came out of my head, but what is wrong with me? So, you know, it's a double edged sword, Michael Hingson  33:26 but write them all down, because you never know where you can use them. Jennifer Shaw  33:29 Oh, absolutely. I don't delete anything. I can just wind and then start again, see where it leads. And it never goes to the same place twice. Michael Hingson  33:37 That's what makes it fun. It's an adventure. I don't know. I think there's an alien presence here somewhere. Jennifer Shaw  33:44 Who knows? Maybe I'm the next step in evolution. Could Michael Hingson  33:47 be or you come from somewhere else. And like I said, they put you down here to figure it out, and they'll come back and get you Jennifer Shaw  33:57 well, but never know. There's so many things we don't understand. You know, Michael Hingson  34:00 well, then that's true, but you know, all you can do is keep working at it and think about it. And you never know when you'll come up, come up with an answer well, or story or another story, right? So keep writing. So clearly, though, you exhibit a lot of resilience in a number of ways. Do you think resilience is something we're born with, or something that we learn, or both. Jennifer Shaw  34:25 I think it's a little of both. You know, maybe we have a stronger determination or willfulness when we're born, but it can also be a part of our environment. You know, we develop things that we want to do. We develop desires and dreams and stuff. And you know the combination of the two, the you know, the willful resolve and the desire to dream and be better. And I think those two combined will drive us towards our our goals. Michael Hingson  34:53 Now are your parents still with us? Yes. So what did they think when. You were diagnosed as being on the spectrum. Jennifer Shaw  35:03 Um, I think my dad was more open to the idea. I don't think my mom believed it, but then she's kind of, she's kind of saying, like, okay, maybe, maybe it's, oddly enough, she was, you know, more open to the idea of me having ADHD than autism. And I just think there was just a lack of understanding. But as time has gone on, I think she sees it, not just in me, but I think she sees aspects of that in herself as well. Michael Hingson  35:28 And in a sense, that's what I was wondering, was that they, they saw you grow up, and in some ways, they had to see what was going on. And I was wondering if, when you got an answer, if that was really something that helped them or that they understood? Jennifer Shaw  35:46 Yeah, I I think so. Although I did internalize a lot of of my understandings and misconceptions about life, I internalized it a lot, and I was the annoying cousins because I just, you know, said the appropriate things at inappropriate times and didn't catch jokes and didn't understand sarcasm and and I was just the oddball one out. But I think now that my mom understands a little bit more about autism and ADHD, she's seeing the signs Michael Hingson  36:13 well, and whether she understood it or not, she had to, certainly, as your mom, see that there was something going on. Well, I don't know my I'm whether she verbalized it or she just changed it out. Jennifer Shaw  36:28 I think she was just, she was working two full time jobs raising five kids on her own. I think that there just wasn't enough time in the day to notice everything. 36:37 Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  36:40 but it's always nice to really get an answer, and you you've accepted this as the answer, and hopefully they will, they will accept it as well. So that's a good thing. Jennifer Shaw  36:54 Whether or not they accept it is up to them. I'm that's their choice. Yeah, yeah. It's their choice. The most important thing is that I'm understanding it. Michael Hingson  37:04 Yeah, well, and then helps you move forward. Which is, which is a good thing? Yes. So do you think that vulnerability is part of resilience? Jennifer Shaw  37:18 I think it's important to understand where we're vulnerable. It's like accepting your weaknesses. We all want to improve. We don't want to stay weak and vulnerable, but the only way to improve is to accept those and to understand those and to identify those so that we know where to improve. So I think that it is important. Michael Hingson  37:38 I think it's crucial that we continue to work on our own ideas and attitudes and selves to be able to to move forward. And you're right. I think vulnerability is something that we all exhibit in one way or another, and when we do is that a bad thing? No, I don't think it should be. I think there are some people who think they're invulnerable to everything, and the reality is they're not Jennifer Shaw  38:09 those narcissists. Yeah, Michael Hingson  38:11 was getting there, but that's and that's exactly the problem. Is that they won't deal with issues at all. And so the fact of the matter is that they they cause a lot more difficulty for everyone. Yep, of course, they never think they do, but they do. Yeah. Jennifer Shaw  38:30 I mean, if you don't accept the fact that you're not perfect and that you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities, then you're just it turns into you're just either denying it or you're completely ignorant. How do you Michael Hingson  38:41 balance strength and softness? And because, you know when you're dealing with vulnerability and so on, and it happens, well, how do you, how do you bring all of it to balance? Jennifer Shaw  38:50 Um, it's the yin and yang, right? Um, you know, the strength keeps you going, the softness keeps you open to accepting and learning. Michael Hingson  38:59 Yeah, that makes sense. It gives you the opportunity to to go back and analyze and synthesize whatever you're thinking. Yes. Well, autism is, by the definitions that we face, considered a disability, which is fine, although my belief is that everybody on the planet has a disability, and for most people, as others have heard me say on this podcast, the disability that most people have is their light dependent, and they don't do well if suddenly the lights go out until they can find a smartphone or whatever, because the inventors, 147 years ago created the electric light bulb, which started us on a road of looking for ways to have light on demand whenever we wanted it and whenever we do want it, when that works, until suddenly the light on demand machine isn't directly available to us when light goes away. So I think that light on demand is a lovely thing, but the machines that provide it are. Only covering up a disability that most people have that they don't want to recognize. Jennifer Shaw  40:05 And I'd also argue that the more dependent we become on technology, that the harder it is to adjust to, you know, the way we used to live. If you go to the grocery store, everything's automated. And if the power goes out at the grocery store, nobody knows how to count out change now, yeah, Michael Hingson  40:22 they they cannot calculate on their own. I continue to work to be able to do that. So I like to to figure things out. People are always saying to me, How come you got the answers so quickly of how much change or how much to leave for a tip I practice, yeah, it's not magical. And the reality is, you don't always have a calculator, and a calculator is just one more thing to lug around. So why have it when you can just learn to do it yourself? Yeah? Jennifer Shaw  40:49 Or we have a cell phone which has got everything on it. Michael Hingson  40:52 Oh, I know, yeah, there is that too. But you know, the the thing about all of this is that we all have disabilities, is what I'm basically saying. But if you use disability in sort of the traditional sense, and by that I mean you have certain kinds of conditions that people call a disability, although I will submit absolutely that disability does not mean a lack of ability. But how do societal definitions of disability, kind of affect people more than the actual condition itself, whatever it is. Jennifer Shaw  41:26 I think society as a whole tend to focus on the negatives and the limitations, and if you focus solely on those, then nobody can see beyond those to what a person can do, because there's a whole, you know, there's a whole lot out there that people can do. You can, you can learn to adjust to a lot of things. The brain is very malleable. And, you know, we're not just given one sense for one reason. You know, we have five senses, well, arguably more, depending on who you talk to, yeah, to feel out the world. And same thing with autism is, you know, I mean, I had a hard time those things that would come naturally to people, like socializing, learning to speak, even my son at the playground, he didn't know how to approach kids to ask him to play and but those things can be learned. They just have to spend the time doing it well. Michael Hingson  42:19 And I hear you, do you think that autism is under the definition of disability? Jennifer Shaw  42:26 I think it can be very debilitating. I think that, you know, and then some people suffer more severe. They're more ranges than than I do mine, but I do think that the brain can learn to adjust a lot, maybe not the same as everybody else, and there will be struggles and there will be challenges, and there'll be anxieties and and things is it is, in a way, a disability. It'll never go away. But I don't think it has to be debilitating Michael Hingson  42:59 struggles and anxieties, but everyone experiences that in one way or another, and that's, of course, the point. Why should some of us be singled out? Jennifer Shaw  43:07 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I do know, though, that with there's, I guess we call them an invisible disability, because I don't look autistic, I don't look ADHD, but I struggle inwardly. It's a lot more emotional. It's a lot more mental, you know, analyzing every conversation I've ever had. It's very exhausting and confusing, and it can lead to other things and stuff that, you know, I mean, I don't think everybody else goes around counting license plates obsessively, you know, adding up numbers on license plates and stuff. And if I don't, it can be very anxiety inducing. I don't think everybody else has to, you know, make notebooks worth of conversations to learn to talk to people and watch the world around them, to try to figure out how to act. I think for a lot of people, it comes naturally. And because I had to learn all those things on my own and stuff, it created a lot more anxiety than another person would have in that area, and life is already chaotic enough, you know, more anxiety on top of anxiety and such. Michael Hingson  44:11 Yeah, but some of that we create ourselves and don't need to. And again, it gets back to the fact we all have different gifts, and so some people are much more socially outgoing, so they can do so many more things that seem like everyone should be able to do them. But again, not everyone has the same gifts. Yeah, I think that we need to recognize that. Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, Jennifer Shaw  44:34 just like, not everybody has the same weaknesses, right? I learned. I think, you know, if we, if we learned to, you know, share the strengths that we have that might overcome somebody else's weaknesses and stuff. It would be a whole lot better place. Instead of trying to label everybody and segregate everybody based on their limitations, let's, let's look at their strengths and see which ones coordinate. Yeah. Michael Hingson  44:56 How does HD? ADHD manifest itself? Jennifer Shaw  45:00 Yeah, it's some, in a lot of ways, very similar to autism, and that's probably why it's now considered part of the autism spectrum. I have a difficult time focusing on things that I don't find intriguing, like, oh gosh, if I had to read a social studies textbook, I would go stark raving mad and fall asleep. And I've really hard time staying focused. Don't have to read the same paragraph 20 times, but you give me a textbook on physics, and I'm right in there, and I'll hyper focus for like, 12 straight hours, forgetting the world exists and don't eat, don't sleep, don't move, and I will just immerse myself in that. And then there's a difficult time regulating emotions so somebody gets upset about something for the most part. You know, you can calm yourself down and stuff like that. With autism and ADHD, it's really hard to regulate those emotions and come down from that hyper, hyper emotional state down to a normal state. Michael Hingson  46:00 I can see that in a lot of ways, it can look very similar to to autism in terms of the way you're describing it. It makes, makes sense, yeah, which? Which is something one has to deal with. Well, if people stop trying to fix what makes us different? What could we do with the world? How would things be different? Jennifer Shaw  46:22 I think the world be very interesting if we stopped trying to fix people and just started trying to accept people and see how, you know, like, I think that for one we would also be a lot more open to accepting people, but that would have to come first. And I think that would be amazing, because, you know, if we were all the same and we all tried to fit into the same mold, it's going to be a very boring place. Michael Hingson  46:46 The thing that is interesting about what you just said, and the question really is, when we try to fix things, why do we need to fix things? What is it that's really broken? And that's of course, the big issue is that people make assumptions based on just their own experiences, rather than looking at other people and looking at their experiences. Is that really broken? As it goes back to like when I talk about blindness, yeah, am I broken? I don't think so. I do things differently. If I had been able to see growing up, that would have been nice. But you know what? It's not the end of the world not to and it doesn't make me less of a person, and you happen to be on the autism spectrum, that's fine. It would be nice if you didn't have to deal with that, and you could function and deal with things the way most people do. But there are probably advantages, and there's certainly reasons why you are the way you are, why I am the way I am. And so why should that be a bad thing? Jennifer Shaw  47:48 I don't think it is. I mean, other than the fact that I would love to be, you know, not have to suffer with the stress and anxieties that I do, and the insecurities and the doubt and trying to figure out this world and where I belong and stuff, I wouldn't. I like the way my brain works. I like the way I think, you know, very What if, very out of the box, very creative mindsets. And I wouldn't change that for the world. Michael Hingson  48:15 Yeah, and I think people really should be accepted the way they are. Certainly there are people who we classify as geniuses because they do something that we didn't think of, and it catches on, and it's creative. Einstein did it. I mean, for that matter, there's something that that Elon Musk has done that has created this vehicle that no one else created successfully before him. Now I'm not sure that he's the greatest business guy, because I hear that Tesla is not the most profitable company in the world, but that's fine. Or Steve Jobs and Bill Gates created things. Did they do it all? Jennifer Shaw  48:56 Sorry, Sebastian Bach too. Yeah. I mean those prodigies, right? Michael Hingson  49:01 And they didn't do they didn't do everything. I understand that Einstein wasn't the greatest mathematician in the world, but he was great at concepts, and he had other people who who helped with some of the math that he didn't do, but, but the reality is, we all have gifts, and we should be able to use those gifts, and other people should appreciate them and be able to add on to what they do. One thing I always told employees when I hired people, is my job isn't to boss you around because I hired you because you demonstrated enough that you can do the job I want you to do, but my job is not to boss you, but rather to use my skills to help enhance what you do. So what we need to do is to work together to figure out how I can help you be better because of the gifts that I bring that you don't have. Some people got that, and some people didn't. Jennifer Shaw  49:50 Some people are just, they're less, you know, open minded. I think I don't know, like, less accepting of other people and less accepting of differences. And it's unfortunate. Passionate, you know, and that creates a lot of problems that, you know, they can't look beyond differences and to see the beauty behind it. Michael Hingson  50:11 Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is that, again, we were all on the earth in one way or another, and at some point we're going to have to learn to accept that we're all part of the same world, and working together is a better way to do it. Yeah, absolutely. How do we get there? Jennifer Shaw  50:28 Yeah, I don't know. Maybe idealistic, you know, Star Trek society, or utopian society, you know. And maybe in 100 or 200 years, we'll get there. But if you think about 100 years ago, if you look at us 100 years ago, and then you think of all the technology that we have today, and that's in, like, one century is not a long time, given how long people have been on this planet. And look at all the things we've accomplished, technology wise, and look at all the great things that we have done, you know, and it's just imagine how many more, or how much, how much more we could do if we work together instead of working against each other. Michael Hingson  51:06 Yeah, and that's of course, the issue is that we haven't learned yet to necessarily work together. To some, for some people, that gets back to narcissism, right? They, they're, they're the only ones who know anything. What do you do? But yeah, I hear you, but, but, you know, I think the day is going to come when we're going to truly learn and understand that we're all in this together, and we really need to learn to work together, otherwise it's going to be a real, serious issue. Hopefully that happens sooner than later, Jennifer Shaw  51:39 yes, yeah, I don't think so, but it would be a nice to imagine what it would be like if it happened tomorrow. Michael Hingson  51:47 Yeah, how much potential do you think is lost, not because of limitations, but, but rather because of how we define them? Jennifer Shaw  51:58 I think we use limitations to set our boundaries, but by setting boundaries, we can never see ourselves moving past them, and nor do we try so. I think that setting limitations is hugely detrimental to our growth as as you know, creative minds. Michael Hingson  52:18 I think also though limitations are what we often put on other people, and oftentimes out of fear because somebody is different than us, and we create limitations that that aren't realistic, although we try to pigeonhole people. But the reality is that limitations are are are also representations of our fears and our misconceptions about other people, and it's the whole thing of, don't confuse me with the facts. Jennifer Shaw  52:51 Yes, yeah. And you know there's Yeah, like you said, there's these self limitations, but there's also limitations that we place on other people because we've judged them based on our understanding. Michael Hingson  53:03 Yeah, and we shouldn't do that, because we probably don't really know them very well anyway, but I but I do think that we all define ourselves, and we each define who we are, and that gets back to the whole thing of, don't judge somebody by what they look like or or what you think about them. Judge people by their actions, and give people the opportunity to really work on showing you what they can do. Jennifer Shaw  53:36 Absolutely, that's definitely a motto by which I've tried to live my life. I honestly don't know everybody out there. I mean, I don't think anybody does. And unless somebody gives me a reason or their behavior says otherwise, I'm going to assume that they're, you know, a good person, you know. I mean, if they, you know, if I assume this person is a good person, but maybe they smack me across face or take, you know, steal from me and stuff, then I'm going to judge those behaviors. Michael Hingson  54:02 One of the things that I learned, and we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, is dogs, and I do believe this love unconditionally, unless something really hurts them, so that they just stop loving. But dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is again, unless something truly has been traumatic for a dog. Dogs are more open to trust than we are. They don't worry about, well, what's this guy's hidden agenda, or why is this woman the way she is? The fact is that they're open to trust and they're looking to develop trusting relationships, and they also want us to set the rules. They want us to be the pack leaders. I'm sure there are some dogs that that probably are better than the people they're with, but by and large, the dog wants the person to be the pack leader. They want them to tell the dog, what are the rules? So. Every guide dog I've had, it's all about setting boundaries, setting rules, and working with that dog so that we each know what our responsibilities to the relationship are. And I think absolutely dogs can get that just as much as people do. They're looking for us to set the rules, but they want that, and the fact of the matter is that they get it just as much as we do. And if that relationship really develops, the kind of trust that's possible, that's a bond that's second to none, and we should all honor that we could do that with with each other too. Yeah, there are people who have hidden agendas and people that we can learn not to trust because they don't want to earn our trust either. They're in it for themselves. But I don't think that most people are that way. I think that most people really do want to develop relationships. Jennifer Shaw  55:51 Yeah, and another aspect of dogs too, is they're very humble, you know, they they don't, I mean, they probably do have some, you know, some egos, but for the most part, they're very humble, and they don't dwell on the mistakes of their past. They live in the moment. And I love Yeah, no, go ahead. They do absolutely they do Michael Hingson  56:14 one of the things that I learned after September 11, because my contacted the folks at Guide Dogs for the Blind about it, my diet, my guide dog was Roselle, and I said, Do you think this affected her, the whole relationship? And the veterinarian I spoke with, who was the head of veterinary services, the guide dogs asked, did anything directly threaten her? And I said, no, nothing did. He said, Well, there's your answer. The fact is, dogs don't do what if they don't worry about what might have been or even what happened if it didn't affect them? They they do live in the moment when we got home after the events on September 11, I took roselle's harness off and was going to take her outside. She would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with our retired guy dog, Lenny. It was over for her. It was done. Jennifer Shaw  57:06 It's finished, the journey's done, and I'm living in this moment now, yeah, Michael Hingson  57:10 different moment. I'm not going to worry about it, and you shouldn't either, which was the lesson to learn from that. Yes, but the reality is that dogs don't do what. If dogs really want to just do what they need to do. They know the rules, like I said. They want to know what you expect, and they will deal with that. And by and large, once you set rules, dogs will live by those rules. And if they don't, you tell them that you didn't do that the right way. You don't do that in a mean way. There are very strong ways of positively telling a dog, yeah, that's not what the right thing was to do. But by the same token, typica

Lisa Hochstein steps Behind The Rope. Fresh off the RHOM reunion and BravoCon weekend, Lisa is here to mention it all. Lisa talks about the highs and lows of the past season, Adriana “hijacking” the RHOM BravoCon panel in search of the Haitian mortician, Julia's BravoCon non apology to Guerdy and her update on her friendship with Larsa. Lisa also talks about co-parenting with Lenny, Jody, the recent headlines about mega Miami mansions, the future of RHOM, potential cast changes and last, but not least, one viral airport run in. Finally, Lisa debuts the new spinoff off of her SplitWell divorce App, SplitWell Prenups, an App Kandi and Todd possibly could have used right about now. @lisahochstein @behindvelvetrope @davidyontef BONUS & AD FREE EPISODES Available at - www.patreon.com/behindthevelvetrope  BROUGHT TO YOU BY: MICROPERFUMES - microperfumes.com/velvet (Up To 60% Your Favorite Perfumes In Pocket Sized Vials) RO - ro.co/velvet (For Prescription Compounded GLP-1s and Your Free Insurance Check) RAKUTEN - rakuten.co.uk (Go To Rakuten.co.uk, Download The App Or Install The Browser Extension To Earn Cash Back While You Shop At All Your Favorite Stores) PROGRESSIVE - www.progressive.com (Visit Progressive.com To See If You Could Save On Car Insurance) HOMESERVE - homeserve.com (Home Owners Insurance That Start At Just $4.99 a Month) ADVERTISING INQUIRIES - Please contact David@advertising-execs.com MERCH Available at - https://www.teepublic.com/stores/behind-the-velvet-rope?ref_id=13198 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get on board with Somehow UN-Related! It's our subscriber-only podcast with Glenn and Dave! Get it here, on Apple Podcasts or go to Nearly.com.au Did you see Glenn on the Today show? To business, the age that no other generation can ever understand, despite having lived through it themselves. AND! Probably the most famous/high frequency type of burger in the world. Thinking Music YouTube Link to the answer Wikipedia Support the podcasts you enjoy - check out Lenny.fm More about the show - www.nearly.com.au/somehow-related-podcast-with-glenn-robbins-and-dave-oneil/ Somehow Related is produced by Nearly Media. Original theme music by Kit Warhurst. Artwork created by Stacy Gougoulis. Looking for another podcast? The Debrief with Dave O'Neil - Dave's other podcasts with comedians after gigs. The Junkees with Dave O'Neil & Kitty Flanagan - The sweet and salty roundabout! Junk food abounds!Support on Lenny.fm: https://www.lenny.fm/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Edwin Chen is the founder and CEO of Surge AI, the company that teaches AI what's good vs. what's bad, powering frontier labs with elite data, environments, and evaluations. Surge surpassed $1 billion in revenue with under 100 employees last year, completely bootstrapped—the fastest company in history to reach this milestone. Before founding Surge, Edwin was a research scientist at Google, Facebook, and Twitter and studied mathematics, computer science, and linguistics at MIT.We discuss:1. How Surge reached over $1 billion in revenue with fewer than 100 people by obsessing over quality2. The story behind how Claude Code got so good at coding and writing3. The problems with AI benchmarks and why they're pushing AI in the wrong direction4. How RL environments are the next frontier in AI training5. Why Edwin believes we're still a decade away from AGI6. Why taste and human judgment shape which AI models become industry leaders7. His contrarian approach to company building that rejects Silicon Valley's “pivot and blitzscale” playbook8. How AI models will become increasingly differentiated based on the values of the companies building them—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsCoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/surge-ai-edwin-chen—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180055059/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Edwin Chen:• X: https://x.com/echen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwinzchen• Surge's blog: https://surgehq.ai/blog—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Edwin Chen(04:48) AI's role in business efficiency(07:08) Building a contrarian company(08:55) An explanation of what Surge AI does(09:36) The importance of high-quality data(13:31) How Claude Code has stayed ahead(17:37) Edwin's skepticism toward benchmarks(21:54) AGI timelines and industry trends(28:33) The Silicon Valley machine(33:07) Reinforcement learning and future AI training(39:37) Understanding model trajectories(41:11) How models have advanced and will continue to advance(42:55) Adapting to industry needs(44:39) Surge's research approach(48:07) Predictions for the next few years in AI(50:43) What's underhyped and overhyped in AI(52:55) The story of founding Surge AI(01:02:18) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Surge: https://surgehq.ai• Surge's product page: https://surgehq.ai/products• Claude Code: https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code• Gemini 3: https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-3• Sora: https://openai.com/sora• Terrence Rohan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrencerohan• Richard Sutton—Father of RL thinks LLMs are a dead end: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/richard-sutton• The Bitter Lesson: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html• Reinforcement learning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_learning• Grok: https://grok.com• Warren Buffett on X: https://x.com/WarrenBuffett• OpenAI's CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Anthropic's CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Brian Armstrong on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barmstrong• Interstellar on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Interstellar-Matthew-McConaughey/dp/B00TU9UFTS• Arrival on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Arrival-Amy-Adams/dp/B01M2C4NP8• Travelers on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80105699• Waymo: https://waymo.com• Soda versus pop: https://flowingdata.com/2012/07/09/soda-versus-pop-on-twitter—Recommended books:• Stories of Your Life and Others: https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122• The Myth of Sisyphus: https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Sisyphus-Vintage-International/dp/0525564454• Le Ton Beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465086454• Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Tomer Cohen is the longtime chief product officer at LinkedIn, where he's pioneering the Full Stack Builder program, a radical new approach to product development that fully embraces what AI makes possible. Under his leadership, LinkedIn has scrapped its traditional Associate Product Manager program and replaced it with an Associate Product Builder program that teaches coding, design, and PM skills together. He's also introduced a formal “Full Stack Builder” title and career ladder, enabling anyone from any function to take products from idea to launch. In this conversation, Tomer explains why product development has become too complex at most companies and how LinkedIn is building an AI-powered product team that can move faster, adapt more quickly, and do more with less.We discuss:1. How 70% of the skills needed for jobs will change by 20302. The broken traditional model: organizational bloat slows features to a six-month cycle3. The Full Stack Builder model4. Three pillars of making FSB work: platform, agents, and culture (culture matters most)5. Building specialized agents that critique ideas and find vulnerabilities6. Why off-the-shelf AI tools never work on enterprise code without customization7. Top performers adopt AI tools fastest, contrary to expectations about leveling effects8. Change management tactics: celebrating wins, making tools exclusive, updating performance reviews—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lennyFigma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/Miro—The AI Innovation Workspace where teams discover, plan, and ship breakthrough products: https://miro.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-linkedin-is-replacing-pms—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/180042347/my-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Tomer Cohen:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen• Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Tomer Cohen(04:42) The need for change in product development(11:52) The full-stack builder model explained(16:03) Implementing AI and automation in product development(19:17) Building and customizing AI tools(27:51) The timeline to launch(31:46) Pilot program and early results(37:04) Feedback from top talent(39:48) Change management and adoption(46:53) Encouraging people to play with AI tools(41:21) Performance reviews and full-stack builders(48:00) Challenges and specialization(50:05) Finding talent(52:46) Tips for implementing in your own company(56:43) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can't stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Devin: https://devin.ai• Figma: https://www.figma.com• Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com• Windsurf: https://windsurf.com• Building a magical AI code editor used by over 1 million developers in four months: The untold story of Windsurf | Varun Mohan (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-untold-story-of-windsurf-varun-mohan• Lovable: https://lovable.dev• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• APB program at LinkedIn: https://careers.linkedin.com/pathways-programs/entry-level/apb• Naval Ravikant on X: https://x.com/naval• One Song podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%93-one-song/id1201883177• Song Exploder podcast: https://songexploder.net• Grok on Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/grok• Reid Hoffman on X: https://x.com/reidhoffman—Recommended books:• Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity/dp/0307719227• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World: https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Infinity-Explanations-Transform-World/dp/0143121359—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Jeanne DeWitt Grosser built world-class GTM teams at Stripe, Google, and, most recently, Vercel, where she serves as COO and oversees marketing, sales, customer success, revenue operations, and field engineering. She transformed Stripe's early sales organization from the ground up and advises founders on GTM strategy.We discuss:1. Why GTM is becoming more strategically important in the AI era2. The rise of the GTM engineer3. A primer on segmentation4. How to build a sales org that engineers and product teams respect5. The changing calculus of build vs. buy for go-to-market tools in the AI era6. Why most customers buy to avoid pain rather than to gain upside—Brought to you by:Datadog—Now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform: https://www.datadoghq.com/lennyLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AI: https://lovable.dev/Stripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue: https://stripe.com/—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-the-best-gtm-teams-do-differently—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/179503137/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Jeanne DeWitt Grosser:• X: https://x.com/jdewitt29• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeannedewitt—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Jeanne DeWitt Grosser(05:26) Defining go-to-market(08:43) The evolution of go-to-market roles(11:23) The rise of the go-to-market engineer(14:21) Implementing AI in sales processes(15:28) Optimizing sales with AI agents(23:47) Defining sales roles: SDRs and AEs(26:04) When to hire a GTM engineer(29:04) Hiring and scaling sales teams(30:50) The ideal go-to-market engineer(34:24) The go-to-market tool stack(40:39) Advice on building a great sales bot(44:34) Vercel's unfair advantage(46:37) Go-to-market as a product(47:04) Innovative sales tactics at Stripe(52:38) Effective go-to-market tactics(01:00:37) Segmentation strategies(01:09:31) Building a sales org that engineers love(01:14:00) Thoughts on PLG and pricing(01:16:44) Sales compensation and hiring(01:19:24) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Vercel: https://vercel.com• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Rosalind Franklin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin• Ben Salzman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bensalzman• SDK: https://ai-sdk.dev/docs/introduction• Gong: https://www.gong.io• Lyft: https://www.lyft.com• Instacart: https://www.instacart.com• DoorDash: https://www.instacart.com• “Sell the alpha, not the feature”: The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-enterprise-sales-playbook-1m-to-10m-arr• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting• Kate Jensen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kateearle• Lessons from scaling Stripe | Claire Hughes Johnson (former COO of Stripe): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-stripe-tactics• Atlassian: atlassian.com—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

On this episode of Best of the Bus, the boys were joined by the one and only Leonard “Playoff Lenny” Fournette for what turned into one of the funniest and most chaotic pods ever recorded on the bus. But it wasn’t all laughs — Lenny opened up about real moments from his NFL journey, giving us one of the most well-rounded, entertaining episodes of that year. The Fournette interview kicked off with Lenny immediately revisiting his infamous fight with Jeffery Simmons at Titans practice, explaining exactly what went down. He then addressed the offseason weight rumors before diving into the unmatched football talent pipeline that comes out of New Orleans. Lenny opened up about getting cut from Jacksonville, shared what it was like asking for his release from Tampa Bay, and even gave an update on Tom Brady — all while sprinkling in some wild LSU fight stories from back in the day. Things got even funnier during Tier Talk as the Boys debated the best fast-food breakfasts, and Lenny wrapped up the episode by discussing his friendship with Antonio Brown and answering the age-old question: was he a better college running back than Derrick Henry? Big hugs, tiny kisses — this one was an all-timer.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.