Podcasts about renisha mcbride

In today's episode we discuss the cases of Renisha McBride, Walter Scott and Aaron Swartz. We discuss that the sentences imposed for the two second degree murder cases involve less time served in prison for the perpetrators than the proposed sentence for the non-violent alleged crime in the third case. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Renisha McBride crashed her car while intoxicated at a street in Detroit, and then walked to a neighborhood in Dearborn Heights where she knocked on the door of a house. The homeowner, Theodore Wafer, shot McBride with a shotgun. see why --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/rexitrucrime/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/rexitrucrime/support

On November 3, 2013, 19 year old Renisha McBride got in to a car accident in a Detroit neighborhood. 4 hours later, a homeowner in that neighborhood shot Renisha to death. Renisha was looking for help after becoming disoriented after accident. The homeowner said he thought she was there to rob him. But the evidence told a different story, SUPPORT OUR SHOW! And Join Us On Patreon To Unlock Exclusive Content! www.patreon.com/blackckgirlgonepodcast Show Sponsor Ritual Visit: www.Ritual.com/GIRGONE And Receive 10% Off Your First 3 Months! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

October 7, 2021 ~ Marie Osborne, WJR Senior News Analyst, talks with Chris Renwick about the Michigan Supreme Court reviewing the second-degree murder and manslaughter convictions of Theodore Wafer for death of Renisha McBride.

Race can often play a part in how certain people view certain situations. In 2013, a black teenage girl went to the front door of a home in a predominantly white neighbourhood near Detroit, Michigan. She had gotten into a car accident and was looking for help. The actions of the home-owner that night would raise many questions about how people talk about race and violence within the United States.SPONSOR -Hidden Compass: Thank you to Hidden Compass for sponsoring this episode! Hidden Compass is an amazing award-winning, women-led media company that is turning storytellers and explorers into heroes & championing a new age of discovery. Learn more at: https://hiddencompass.net/SHOW NOTES - https://morbidology.com/morbidology-the-podcast-117-renisha-mcbridePATREON - https://www.patreon.com/morbidologyAudio Credit:Evening of Chaos - Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Empty Reflections - ErikMMusic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgq4SPKHlyIA Mothers Sacrifice - OurMusicBox - https://ourmusicbox.com/Dark Tranquility - Anno Domini Beats - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6mBav72Ak

Part 2 of this week's list now posted! Buckle up for some extreme dumbness, twisted listeners, as this week we cover our top ten stupidest reasons why people were murdered. Featuring chicken sandwich violence, a strange fan club for a neighbor-murderer, a mom way too invested in Farmville, and way too much “stand your ground” bullshit. (Un)surprisingly, people really don't disappoint when it comes to ever-stupider and stupider reasons to pointlessly murder each other! Brought to you by Podmoth! podmoth.networkwww.patreon.com/twistedlistersinstagram.com/twistedlisterspcastTiktok: @twistedlistersCases Covered:1. Fergus Glen2. Robert Doyle/Candelerio Gonzalez3. Renisha McBride4. Ricoh McClain/Murder of Kevin Tyrell Davis5. Rebecca AylwardSources:https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2019/12/17/fatal-popeyes-stabbing-maryland-ricoh-mcclaine-indicted-latest/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7808067/Suspect-indicted-murder-stabbing-man-outside-Popeyes-Maryland.htmlhttps://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7550261/schoolboy-killer-beat-ex-girlfriend-15-death-fry-up-rock/https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/142295617/rebecca-aylwardhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28470246https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/us/theodore-wafer-sentenced-in-killing-of-renisha-mcbride.htmlhttps://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/112782717/fergus-glen-to-be-paroled-16-years-after-killing-his-brother-in-wainuiomataSupport the show (http://www.patreon.com/twistedlisters)

In this week's episode of the Get Lit Minute, your weekly poetry podcast, we spotlight the life and work of poet Krysten Hill. She received her MFA in poetry from the University of Massachusetts Boston, where she currently teaches and is the recipient of the 2016 St. Botolph Club Foundation Emerging Artist Award and 2020 Mass Cultural Council Poetry Fellowship. Do you LOVE poetry? Check out our monthly Free Verse Membership Club for the opportunity to network, collaborate, and just hang out with fellow artists/poets. Also make sure you watch the movie "Summertime" featuring 27 of our Get Lit Poets and directed by Carlos Lopez Estrada, in theaters on July 9th. More info at http://www.getlit.org"Nothing"I ask a student how I can help her. Nothing is on her paper.It's been that way for thirty-five minutes. She has a headache. She asks to leave early. Maybe I asked the wrong question. I've always been dumb with questions. When I hurt, I too have a hard time accepting advice or gentleness.I owe for an education that hurt, and collectors call my mama's house. I do nothing about my unpaid bills as if that will help. I do nothing about the mold on my ceiling, and it spreads. I do nothing about the cat's litter box, and she pisses on my new bath mat. Nothing isn't an absence. Silence isn't nothing. I told a woman I loved her, and she never talked to me again. I told my mama a man hurt me,and her hard silence told me to keep my story to myself. Nothing is full of something, a mass that grows where you cut at it. I've lost three aunts when white doctors told them the thing they felt was nothing. My aunt said nothing when it clawed at her breathing.I sat in a room while it killed her. I am afraid when nothing keeps me in bed for days. I imagine what my beautiful aunts are becoming underground, and I cry for them in my sleep where no one can see. Nothing is in my bedroom, but I smell my aunt's perfume and wake to my name called from nowhere. I never looked into a sky and said it was empty. Maybe that's why I imagine a god up there to fill what seems unimaginable. Some days, I want to live inside the words more than my own black body. When the white man shoves me so that he can get on the bus first, when he says I am nothing but fits it inside a word, and no one stops him, I wear a bruise in the morning where he touched me before I was born. My mama's shame spreads inside me. I've heard her say there was nothing in a grocery store she could afford. I've heard her tell the landlord she had nothing to her name. There was nothing I could do for the young black woman that disappeared on her way to campus. They found her purse and her phone, but nothing led them to her. Nobody was there to hold Renisha McBride's hand when she was scared of dying. I worry poems are nothing against it. My mama said that if I became a poet or a teacher, I'd make nothing, but I've thrown words like rocks and hit something in a room when I aimed for a window. One student says when he writes, it feels like nothing can stop him, and his laugher unlocks a door. He invites me into his living.Support the show (https://getlit.org/donate/)

  Firearms instructor Steve Moses joins Don West and Shawn Vincent as they revisit the touchstone Ted Wafer case. Steve identifies several mistakes Wafer made in handling the firearm along with the tactical mistakes that led to the tragic shooting Renisha McBride.

This week Aja tells the story on behalf of Renisha McBride. A 19-year-old black woman who after crashing her car roamed a residential area seeking help when she was shot in the face and killed. Written & Edited by: Aja Hamilton Music by: Holly Amber Church. Social Media Manager: Kelcie Gruenberg For sources and photos, follow us on instagram: @ontheirbehalf_pod Twitter @ontheirbehalf_ *CONTENT WARNING* Listener discretion advised. *Violent against women. *Language --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/dna-podcast7/support

"Ya Didn't Ask"...but these guys in the NBA are tired too. Being black in America is effing exhausting. Life has enough challenges of its own, but the challenge that comes with being black is different and tiring-mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually tiring. Everyone has an opinion on what NBA players, perhaps the most visible members of our community, should do with their platform. Play, don't play. Protest, don't protest. Take a knee, don't take a knee. Leave the bubble, stay in the bubble, they never should have gone to the bubble. These guys are living out their dreams, as professional ball players nonetheless, and now some have the expectation that these professional ball players should take the mantle and lead the way in the decades long fight for human and civil rights. There are no excuses. These gentlemen chose to train their bodies to pivot, finish at the rim, drain threes and make stepback jumpers. They then, in the spirit of the athletic ancestors who came before them, took it upon themselves to train their voices to speak against racism, injustice, police brutality, etc. Being black in America is effing exhausting and these black men are tired. They should be. Black women in the WNBA are tired too. So tired that some decided not to play this season. Maya Moore hasn't played for multiple seasons...because being black AND fighting for black people AND playing ball is too much right now. Black women often see it first. The black men of the NBA are starting to recognize it too, so they took a couple of days off. What happens now? None of us can predict it. We'll get an NBA champion out of the bubble. We'll get a WNBA champ as well. Sick and tired is a real thing and black fatigue requires days off. I'll end with a popular summary of why we're so doggone tired... “We can't jog - Ahmaud Arbery. We can't relax in the comfort of our homes - Botham Jean, Atatiana Jefferson, Breonna Taylor We can't ask for help after being in a car wreck - Jonathan Ferrell and Renisha McBride. We can't hold a cellphone - Stephon Clark. We can't leave a party to get to safety - Jordan Edwards. We can't listen to loud music - Jordan Davis. We can't sell CD's - Alton Sterling. We can't sleep in our beds - Aiyana Jones. We can't play cops and robbers - Tamir Rice. We can't walk home with skittles - Trayvon Martin. We can't get a traffic ticket - Sandra Bland. We can't lawfully carry a carry a weapon - Philando Castile. We can't go to church - the Charleston 9. We can't allegedly whistle – Emmett Till.” "Everyone expects us to go out and play. I get it. But we needed some time....We needed some time to refocus and understand that we can do that. We're human..." ~ Chris Paul We’re the ones getting killed. We’re the ones getting shot. We’re the ones that were denied to live in certain communities. We’ve been hung. We’ve been shot. All you do is keep hearing about fear...It’s just ridiculous. It just keeps getting … It keeps going. There’s no charges. Brionna Taylor, no charges, nothing. ~ Doc Rivers "We're tired of the killings and the injustice," ~ George Hill "My house has been burned to the ground, animals tortured and burned as well," Rivers' son Austin, tweeted out earlier. "Along with anything we ever loved, and held treasured, because of the color of my dad's skin. We lost everything and had to start over." ~ Austin Rivers --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/mike493/message

Being Anti-Racist Dismantling privilege can bring up mixed and complicated emotions.  Let this episode help you through it: "Anti-Racism Affirmations"   Longtime listener of Affirmation Pod, Sara Monika is sharing her process of dismantling her white privilege at @saramonikaphoto The black community needs us. Let's end racial injustice. Black Lives Matter. Amplify Melanated Voices. George Floyd October 14, 1973 - May 25, 2020 Tanisha Anderson who died November 12, 2014 Ahmaud Arbery 1994 - February 23, 2020 Michael Brown May 20, 1996 - August 9, 2014 John Crawford July 29, 1992 - August 5, 2014 Ezell Ford October 14, 1988 - August 11, 2014 Eric Garner September 15, 1970 - July 17, 2014 Freddie Gray August 16, 1989 - April 19, 2015 Antonio Martin who died December 23, 2014 Trayvon Martin February 5, 1995 - February 26, 2012 Renisha McBride who died November 2, 2013 Tony McDade who died May 27, 2020 Laquan McDonald September 25, 1997 - October 20, 2014 Jerame Reid who died December 30, 2014 Tamir Rice June, 25 2002 - 23 November 2014 Breonna Taylor June 5, 1993 - March 13, 2020 and so so many more... I did some searching and could not find the birthdates for Tanisha Anderson, Ahmaud Arbery, Antonio Martin, Renisha McBride, Tony McDade and Jerame Reid.  If you know any of them, could you send to me at AffirmationPod.com/Contact and I will update.  Thank you, Josie  Sponsor Spotlight Skillshare is the proud sponsor of this episode. Skillshare is an online learning community with thousands of amazing classes covering dozens of creative and entrepreneurial skills. Get TWO MONTHS FREE of unlimited access to thousands of classes at Skillshare.com/Affirmation   Have You Listened On The App Yet? It's free on the Apple, Amazon and Google Play app stores. This episode is in the category "Change and Moving On” The app is where you can easily mark your favorite affirmations, make your own playlist, download to listen offline and a whole lot more! It's also where you can sign up for premium access, which gives you all episodes with no ads and no announcements plus bonus content you won’t find on the podcast.  Download the App at AffirmationPodApp.com! If you prefer, premium and bonus content is also available on Patreon at AffirmationPod.com/Patreon or your favorite podcast player* at AffirmationPod.com/Pods Alexa Skill: AffirmationPod.com/Alexa Amazon App: AffirmationPod.com/AmazonApp App: AffirmationPodAccess.com App FAQs: AffirmationPod.com/FAQs Contact: AffirmationPod.com/Contact Facebook Group: AffirmationPod.com/FacebookGroup Facebook Page: AffirmationPod.com/FacebookPage Google Play App: AffirmationPod.com/GoogleApp Instagram: AffirmationPod.com/Instagram iOS App: AffirmationPod.com/iOSApp Kids Version: AffirmationPod.com/Kids Patreon: AffirmationPod.com/Patreon Pinterest: AffirmationPod.com/Pinterest Portuguese Version: AffirmationPod.com/Portuguese Premium on Affirmation Pod App: AffirmationPodPremium.com Premium on Podcast Listening Apps*: AffirmationPod.com/Pods Self-Care Worksheet: AffirmationPod.com/SelfCare Sponsors: AffirmationPod.com/Sponsors Stress Management Worksheet: AffirmationPod.com/Stress Twitter: AffirmationPod.com/Twitter YouTube: AffirmationPod.com/YouTube Web Version of App: AffirmationPod.Libsyn.com Website: AffirmationPod.com *available on podcast apps that support importing private feeds Thanks for listening to Affirmation Pod!! Now go be you, know you and love you!    

Enough is enough. In the aftermath of George Floyd's tragic death, our community is yet again devastated by another senseless loss. Only now, the public-at-large is paying attention. We ask the question -- "Why now?" and discuss a long history of black mothers losing sons and daughters under racist circumstances and what it's really going to take to make change.

We must remember... TRAYVON MARTIN, ATATIANA JEFFERSON, AMADOU DIALLO, AIYANA JONES, JOHN CRAWFORD, BOTHAM JEAN, AHMAUD ARBERY, SEAN BELL, JONATHAN FERRELL, RENISHA MCBRIDE, TERENCE CRUTCHER, SANDRA BLAND, ERIC GARNER, TAMIR RICE, JORDAN EDWARDS, PHILANDO CASTILE, ALTON STERLING, JORDAN DAVIS, OSCAR GRANT, KEITH SCOTT, STEPHON CLARK, WALTER SCOTT, FREDDIE GRAY, MICHAEL BROWN, COREY JONES, DOUG LEWIS, BREONNA TAYLOR, GEORGE FLOYD. blacklivesmatter #podcastblackout #icantbreathe Send us your feedback online: https://pinecast.com/feedback/retro-ridoctopus/19799abd-feb3-46e2-a645-fe3a727c887b

They need us. Let's end racial injustice. Black Lives Matter. Amplify Melanated Voices. George Floyd October 14, 1973 - May 25, 2020 Tanisha Anderson who died November 12, 2014 Ahmaud Arbery 1994 - February 23, 2020 Michael Brown May 20, 1996 - August 9, 2014 John Crawford July 29, 1992 - August 5, 2014 Ezell Ford October 14, 1988 - August 11, 2014 Eric Garner September 15, 1970 - July 17, 2014 Freddie Gray August 16, 1989 - April 19, 2015 Antonio Martin who died December 23, 2014 Trayvon Martin February 5, 1995 - February 26, 2012 Renisha McBride who died November 2, 2013 Laquan McDonald September 25, 1997 - October 20, 2014 Jerame Reid who died December 30, 2014 Tamir Rice June, 25 2002 - 23 November 2014 Breonna Taylor June 5, 1993 - March 13, 2020 and so so many more...   I did some searching and could not find the birthdates for Tanisha Anderson, Ahmaud Arbery, Antonio Martin, Renisha McBride and Jerame Reid.  If you know any of the, could you send to me at AffirmationPod.com/Contact and I will update.  Thank you, Josie     

Giustizia per George Floyd, Amaud Arbery, Tamer Rice,Eric Garner,Jordan Davis, Renisha McBride, Jonathan Ferrell e per le altre innumerevoli vite perse a causa della police brutality. Firmate la petizione affinché venga depositata l'accusa di omicidio contro gli agenti che hanno ucciso George: https://www.change.org/p/giustizia-per-george-floyd?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_medium=whatsapp&recruited_by_id=57270430-a1ec-11ea-9875-0d2e163f4f51&share_bandit_exp=skip-22455447-it-IT&share_bandit_var=v2 Il razzismo sistemico: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrHIQIO_bdQ&t=1s

For Ahmaud Arbery, Sandra Bland, Michael Brown, Philando Castile, Jamar Clark, John Crawford, Jordan Davis, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray, Charles Kinsey, Renisha McBride, Laquan McDonald, Nina Pop, Sean Reed, Tamir Rice, Anton Sterling, Breonnna TaylorInstagram: @KristinSFulton

    It’s four in the morning and someone is angrily pounding on your front door, trying to get in. What do you do? That’s what Army veteran Greggory Farr had to decide. Don West and Shawn Vincent discuss Farr’s decision and the legal consequences.   Transcript: Don West: You know that surprisingly, there are plenty of those out there. Once they're on your radar and you start looking around, you see these tragic consequences coming out of people that make what may turn out to be a fatal mistake pounding on somebody's door, typically in the middle of the night, often under the influence of alcohol or sometimes, I suppose, combined with some other intoxicants of some sort. And then we had as a point that the tragic case in the Detroit, Michigan area, that Ted Wafer case, a young disoriented woman who had been in a fairly minor car accident, but clearly under the influence of alcohol and maybe some other things.   Shawn Vincent: Marijuana.   Don West: Yeah, and was pounding on the door, I suppose looking for help. I don't know if she was mistaken as to where she was or if she just was trying to raise anybody that could come help her, but she certainly gave all of the outward appearances to Mr. Wafer as an intruder, someone trying to break in the house.   Shawn Vincent: Well, and it's terrifying. So you have one person who's intoxicated and disoriented and confused and someone else who's just been awoken from a deep sleep in their home in the middle of the night. And it's confusing for everybody. Don West: Yeah. You've got people a world apart trying to meet somewhere in the middle to exercise good judgment and make some decisions that keep everybody safe and often that just doesn't get there.   Shawn Vincent: You got me thinking about my tone. When I talk about these things and write about these things -- and I think sometimes I can be harsh on the defender while we have our conversations. And I think it's in the same spirit that I'm harsh with my kids sometimes. It comes from love. Because I've seen so many of these cases were very good people, well-intentioned people are put, not because it's their fault -- these people came to their home drunk in the middle of the night and imposed on the security of their home, their family -- and they make a couple of mistakes, and you and I have tried to defend these people, and have successfully sometimes in court, but they make a couple of mistakes and it makes your job and our job so much harder, where if they had spent a little more time thinking about it in advance, what they're going to do in certain circumstances, they could have avoided it altogether or had been just so clearly justified that they never have to call us in the first place.   Don West: I suppose that we're talking now how you can prepare for what may be a highly unlikely event, but at the same time if it ever happens to you and you've taken a few minutes to think it through in advance or to get some special training on how to deal with these scenarios, whether it's the parking lot scenario and somebody's walking up to you and you have to figure out whether it's an attacker or whether it's a homeless person looking for a handout or whether it's a crazy person, a potential rapist, who knows, but you've got those moments when you have to protect yourself, but at the same time hope that you can make some good decisions and that innocent lives aren't lost.   Shawn Vincent: That's fair.   Don West: And most importantly of course, is that you don't wind up committing a crime during that process, so that even though you firmly believe that you are doing what is absolutely necessary and lawful, reasonable people can sometimes disagree and if depending on where you are, what the jurisdiction is, who the police officer is that's investigating. Perhaps we should talk about prosecutorial discretion at some point. Maybe this is a good case that we'll get to talk about that. And you just wind up on the other side of this traumatic event in what we've called before the second fight, the next fight. The next fight. And that's when you're dealing with the criminal justice system.   Shawn Vincent: I hate to see good people get prosecuted and sometimes go to jail for making what are entirely understandable mistakes, but mistakes that could have been avoided.   Don West: And by that, I think the keyword is avoidance, because any time it doesn't happen, you've avoided it and your risk zero.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the legal risk.   Don West: That's what Andrew Branca talks about. No matter how legally or actions are.   Shawn Vincent: How justified you might be.   Don West: Yeah, the risk is not zero that something won't happen.   Shawn Vincent: Or that you've misperceived one critical thing. And so let's go to Hawaii. There's this place called, I'm not going to say it right. EWA beach in Hawaii, I'm going to call it Ewa beach and there's a guy named Gregory Farr. He's 35-year-old army veteran. He lives there with his girlfriend and a daughter in this townhouse community, rows of townhouses. They all look-   Don West: Kind of cookie cutter?   Shawn Vincent: Remarkably similar to one another. So it's an April 15th a couple of years ago, tax day, and a sailor in the Navy, John Hasselbrink, Chief Petty Officer, 41 years old, was out drinking. He was reasonably responsible. He Ubered.   Don West: If that's the case where, well one can assume he's probably a career military if he's still in.   Shawn Vincent: At 41, yeah.   Don West: Sure. And was living that life. And did I read it correctly that he was going to ship out the next day somewhere and that's why he was, kind of lighting it up that night?   Shawn Vincent: I'm pretty sure. And so he lives in this town row, a couple of doors down. He usually keeps his door unlocked because you've got friends who come and go will crash on his sofa, and he's fine with that. So the Uber drops him off. The Uber's not pinpoint accuracy as it turns out, so he's a couple of doors down and he doesn't go to his front door, which he assumes is unlocked. He goes to the front door of Gregory Farr, who's asleep upstairs. Now Gregory, three days ago prior to this event, had hurt himself. He's in a cast, broke his ankle I think.   Don West: So he's got some limited mobility.   Shawn Vincent: He's hobbled. Right. And so now it's four in the morning, the terrible hour, four in the morning where all this stuff happens, and there's frantic pounding on the front door. This guy thinks he's at his house, he's trying to get in.   Don West: So he probably goes to the door, turns the knob. What happens is not what he expects. He gets resistance, the door is locked.   Shawn Vincent: Right. I think he assumes one of his buddies came in and crashed on the couch, they locked him out.   Don West: So he pounds on the door, wakes him up and they let him in and he goes to bed and.   Shawn Vincent: And they'd laugh about it and work off their hang overs the next late morning I imagine, but that's not what happens. Our guy Farr, he gets a rifle. The reports didn't say what kind of rifle he has, but it's a long gun and he goes downstairs and he's sort of covering the stairway that leads to the front door. There's a window there. You can see that there's a figure out there. It's someone he doesn't recognize. He calls out, wants to know who he is.   Don West: So at this point he's making noise from the inside trying to get this guy's attention, asking him questions, but no sense of recognition or no response on the outside other than the continued. . .   Shawn Vincent: The continuation of it. He's said that he had his girlfriend call 9-1-1. I assume she did. I haven't found any reports that prove that she did that. I haven't heard the 9-1-1 phone call in any of the news reports that I read on this, and that's what we have to go by. But let's assume that that happened ,or at least that he intended for her to call. So this goes on. So then we read at one point that he tells investigators, he thought his daughter was asleep up in bed, but I guess she's on the mattress downstairs. So she's sort of in between him now at the top of the stairs with his hobbled ankle in a cast and a rifle and this guy who's plowing away on his front door. And he fires.   Don West: So as I understand his thinking, from what the reports seem to indicate, is that once he realizes that his daughter is essentially between him and the door, but in close proximity to the door, he's now concerned for her individual safety, not just the general safety of the family, but now he realizes that she is at high risk from this fella if he bursts in.   Shawn Vincent: Right when he comes in, he's going to get to her first, and I'm the father and I'm injured I can't get to her quickly. That's a terrifying place to be.   Don West: So that basically was the deciding factor from what you can tell-   Shawn Vincent: So this guy's not responding. He's had it. And so it seems like he fired one shot this rifle through the door.   Don West: And as far as we know, the door is still locked. There's been no progress made getting in by this intoxicated sailor.   Shawn Vincent: That's right.   Don West: But nonetheless, inside the homeowners are now armed, yet to some degree disabled, not as able to be physical, not as able to make some decisions in terms of his relative capacity physically with the guy outside and whether anybody would allow someone in just to fight them under these circumstances is certainly overwhelmed by the idea of a minor child at risk.   Shawn Vincent: Right. We talk about immanence all the time, and I think he seemed content to call out and wait -- until he had a suspicion that his daughter might be at risk, and that wasn't a chance he was willing to take, so he fires and kills the guy.   Don West: Why are so many of these cases that we talk about one shot fatalities. I've been a criminal defense lawyer for a long, long time and I've handled lots of aggravated battery cases, attempted murder cases where there's been one, two, three, five shots and nobody dies. And yet these innocent homeowner cases almost always one shot and the person on the other side dies. They're typically pretty decent people in their own right. They just made a tragic mistake of going to the wrong door and compounded of course by their level of intoxication.   Shawn Vincent: Michael Drejka just happened to hit him in the heart. Could have hit him an inch over.   Don West: The handicap parking place shooting.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, George Zimmerman. One shot.   Don West: Yep.   Shawn Vincent: This guy's an Army veteran. He understood how to handle a rifle and been trained to shoot. Gerald Strebendt had one shot; he was a veteran Marine sniper.   Don West: Well, and that's, I imagine if you're going to assume that training played some part in it, even if it's through a door, that the notion is you shoot for the large part of the body, the center mass, and that's where a lot of vital organs are.   Shawn Vincent: And if you hit it, then you hit it.   Don West: And if you don't, you may very well not kill somebody, but if you do or you hit a place that's going to bleed out, then it just takes a few seconds.   Shawn Vincent: So for whatever reason, often it is one shot as the case in this case. So he's eventually arrested on manslaughter charges. I'll add that the gun he had, I don't know all the details behind this, but he didn't have it legally, so he was arrested on weapons charges as well. And you and I have talked about this before in cases where those are mutually exclusive things. You can legally justifiably defend yourself with an illegal weapon and potentially be justified in the homicide but still face weapons charges for having an illegal weapon.   Don West: That's right. That's happened surprisingly often actually where the claim of self-defense may very well be supported by the evidence and no charges are filed, but at the same time a convicted felon in possession would be a charge that some people would have to deal with or some other illegal weapon possession of some sort.   Shawn Vincent: And we've seen people run for the scene because they knew they weren't allowed to have the gun and made their defense case much harder. And then some of the weird stuff happens, and we'll talk about, you called it lawyer nerd stuff earlier. We went and talked about some lawyer nerd stuff, but it's relevant because each one of these cases gets prosecuted or not differently, and it affects the defender's lives in myriad ways, but in this case, they arrest him, the charge him with a manslaughter, then they screw up speedy trial. They took too long, I guess, the prosecutor, to go through certain steps, and a judge dismisses it. But you made a distinction here. He dismissed it without prejudice, which meant that months later they pulled together this case and they came back and they charged him with manslaughter again.   Don West: The initial criminal charge was dismissed on a speedy trial violation, because apparently the judge specifically allowed that the dismissal was without prejudice. In legal parlance, that typically means that a legal, a judicial action is taken typically a dismissal of some sort, but the key word is without prejudice. Without prejudice means that it's not fatal to the case and oftentimes that lawyers have, especially in a civil context, you can fix it. You can amend the pleading and file it again. So a dismissal without prejudice usually gives leave to take another run at it. Whereas frankly, that's a pretty novel concept to me in criminal law. I'm not really familiar how many states would allow a dismissal, especially on speedy trial grounds without prejudice, but clearly that's what happened here.   Had the judge dismissed it with prejudice, that typically means that's the end of it. Nobody can go back at another bite at the apple. A speedy trial is a notion that's a criminal procedure issue that originally is sort of designed at least, constitutionally, to keep people from languishing in jail waiting for their day in court.   Shawn Vincent: You, the State, the oppressive government, you can't just arrest me on charges and then keep me in jail pending trial for 10 years, keeping me in prison without a trial.   Don West: Without a determination of guilt. Sure. There's a provision in the United States Constitution for speedy trial in the day to day work of a criminal defense lawyer that would be known as constitutional speedy trial and that looks at a lot of factors including prejudice to the defendant for the delay and bringing the person to trial. Maybe they've lost witnesses or other evidence that they could have preserved had they then brought to trial more quickly.   Don West: That can even sometimes exist in a far different context than what we're talking about here. But here we're talking about a state procedural rule, just like there's an overall constitutional speedy trial concept, that essentially focuses on due process and the fairness of the way that you were treated and the prejudice that you've encountered as a result of not being moved along in the system. And under state court, there might be very specific rules and it could be as hard and fast as a specific number of days. And if you're not brought to trial with any specific number of days, then the court has the authority to dismiss it. I remember in the old days, old days meaning 20, 30 years ago, that Florida had a very specific speedy trial rule for both misdemeanors and felonies, but for felonies it was 180 days. And if you were arrested and you were not brought to trial within 180 days, the court had the obligation to dismiss the case on application.   So you often would look at the calendar and figure out how many days actually where the 180th day fell and if you weren't brought to trial and jury selection started on that day, then you could file a motion with the court to dismiss it and it didn't matter if it was a bad check or a first degree murder. The judge had no discretion in that. And sometimes it gets kind of silly because the prosecutor would sometimes just count wrong and misunderstand when the 180th day was. That's changed now, it's still pretty rigid though because it's 175 days and then there's a window that the defendant must request the trial and then they've got a couple of weeks to bring the person to trial, but then it would be dismissed.   Don West: Unlike other states, for example, well North Carolina is one where there really isn't any state speedy trial, so people can wait weeks or months to go to trial and not have any specific provision that guides that. Other States, when I talked to lawyers around the country, always seem to tell me a different story how their speedy trials worked and that's not to be confused -- I won't go on too much longer -- not to be confused with the statute of limitations. So the statute of limitations is basically how long the prosecuting authority can wait between the incident and the prosecution. That's typically measured in years. In most jurisdictions, a felony would be maybe four or five years, statute of limitations. And in some cases, cases that you and I have worked on, there is no statute of limitations on in most places for murder for example.   Shawn Vincent: Which means there could be some defender who was involved in the self-defense incident and the police decide not the charge for some reason, but he's never explicitly exonerated, so he lives his life month after month, potentially year after year, with this specter that a prosecution could happen at some point.   Don West: Yeah, a lot of those cases just kind of hang out there because there is no statute of limitations, the prosecutor doesn't have to finally decide and frankly there's pretty good reason in some cases, not the ones we're talking about, but we know all those cold cases, right? Technology changes. There are people that committed murder 30 years ago that are now being successfully prosecuted because of DNA and these genetic databases and things that. . .   Shawn Vincent: The Golden Gate Killer.   Don West: Yeah, there you go. They're able to identify people there was simply not enough reliable evidence on before.   Shawn Vincent: I bring that up, because one of the, you talked about the next fight, right? One of the points of our discretion and our podcast is to help the members understand just what comes or what can come after a self defense shooting. And what we'd like to think is that the cops show up, they look around and say, "Oh yeah, he was trying to break into your house. Congratulations on being a great citizen. You're fine." And life goes on. But that's hardly ever the case. They're going to come, they're going to treat it as a homicide. Sometimes they clear these pretty quickly, other times they don't. And then the defender's left in this limbo for days, weeks, months, years sometimes. Usually an arrest comes within days or weeks, but not always. And then there's, depending on where you live, different speedy trial clock, your lawyer will probably opt to voluntarily to spend that to take the time they want to get the experts they need to. . .   Don West: Yeah. In most circumstances, if there's a rigid speedy trial rule, it can be waived or told because of something that the defense wants to do to get expert review of evidence or that sort of more investigation.   Shawn Vincent: That's why you have a year or two before you get the trial.   Don West: Yeah. You know your point is . . . I've personally been involved in a case that's now a year and a half old and there's been no prosecution to note, no clear evidence that there ever will be, but there's been no absolute dismissal with prejudice. You know we talked about with prejudice if the case is dismissed with prejudice. . .   Shawn Vincent: There's no deep sigh of relief for this guy.   Don West: No, and then there's another case I'm personally involved in that is almost four years now since the incident and once again, well there's no interest apparently in prosecuting, and the longer the time passes I think the more comfort one can take that there won't be, but there's no guarantee that it won't be picked up at some point in time.   Don West: Now this is not the kind of case where DNA and advances and forensics are likely to change the shift. It's a self-defense case and I think the facts are pretty well known and we can be confident because no charges were filed, that it was thoroughly assessed and an intelligent and informed decision was made. But no guarantee that, who knows? You know that's how, frankly, you hear cases all the time where after five years or 10 years, a suspect in a case, in the traditional typical kind of murder case where they can't prove who did it, they know it was a murder. It's clear that it was a criminal murder, but they don't know for sure who did it or the suspect. There's just not enough evidence. There'll be a statement made, there'll be new forensic evidence or something that will connect the dots and all of a sudden there.   Shawn Vincent: There's a case. So this guy Farr, he had sort of a, the case was dismissed at one point. There are several months, then it was reasserted. The reporting kind of goes cold on this. At one point there's going to be a trial in December. I don't think that trial happens. I couldn't find any reports on it, so it was continued or the likely case of it or dismissed. But that guy spent a long time and wondering what was going to happen to him. And a lot of that has to do with some of the choices he made during this. Well, I guess there's, there's one critical choice here. If we're going to talk about the lessons learned from the case and that is he chose to fire against the intruder before the intruder had gained access to his house. This is, we were talking about the enemy at the gates.   We talked just earlier today about a guy who went out to meet an intruder in his yard. We've talked about the Ted Wafer case where he opened the door to the intruder on the porch. We talked about a similar case where a guy had two people breaking into his house. He knew who they were. He knew they were there to get them and he fired through the door and killed both of them. He was found justified probably because he knew once he got into the house, he knew what their intent was.   Don West: And he was outnumbered and apparently the police were pretty satisfied that was good. That was true.   Shawn Vincent: But our general advice was you probably should never shoot through a closed, locked door. We talked about a case in Cincinnati where this mother of five, her abusive ex boyfriend came, was raging on the front yard and trying to get in, and he finally pulled out the air conditioner, the window unit, and it was only then when he tried to get into the window unit that she fired and ended up wounding him and just disabling him. She was clearly justified, but it was that moment when that threshold was to be crossed. The breach had been made and Farr shoots before that moment.   Don West: So we touched upon this in our conversation, this notion of prosecutorial discretion, the discretion that a prosecutor has in any criminal case, but I think especially in these kinds of cases. If they don't have clear marching orders from above that they always do something when these these things are present and the prosecutor's going to, after looking at the case package, you want to talk to law enforcement, they may reach out independently to talk to witnesses. They have the authority to do that. Of course, they have the benefit of the forensic reports. A lot of them the police don't have, at least not at first and they can sort of piece this together. They will scrutinize and scrutinize and dissect and turn inside and out any statement that the accused made, the shooter made, to see if it matches up with other witness statements, but I think maybe most importantly if it matches up with the physical evidence. They'll take a look at gunshot residue, trajectory. In this case they might very well look at the door jamb. Was there damage to the door jamb? What kind of door was it? Is it steel or is it thin wood that could be easily smashed down?   Shawn Vincent: Right, in Ted Wafer they brought in the screen door that was between him and Renisha McBride to try to decide what damage was caused by her that night.   Don West: Sure, and they can do this in the comfort of their office with the quiet and a time to reflect. Nothing like the decisions that were made of course at the scene.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the life or death imminent decisions.   Don West: They'll take a look at his statement when he said, "My daughter was there in between me and the door." And see if that really holds water. How old was she? Could he have said to her, get out of the way. Come here, go upstairs. Could he have done anything to have increased her safety before he used it as a justification for shooting through the door? He said, as I recall, that he could see the face of the sailor through the window in the door and that he was yelling at him and showed him the gun and one would think just logically, the prosecutor certainly will think this through, it's not a home invasion robbery. It's not somebody bursting into your house to hold you at gunpoint to steal things from you typically, if they bang on the door and yell and want you to come open the door. They may be crazy. They may be drunk, but it's not likely that they're part of a home invasion team.   Shawn Vincent: If it's a home invasion robber, they'll knock and say, "Hey everybody, we're here to rob you. We're going to barge in 10 seconds."   Don West: "Please open your door."   Shawn Vincent: "Get ready for us. Get your shotgun ready." And yeah.   Don West: There apparently wasn't any clear attempt to kick the door in. I'm sure that would have been mentioned if there'd been evidence to show that. So even though Mr. Farr had seconds to make these decisions, they're going to be looked at over the course of days and weeks and months, in this case a number of months. Speedy trial and then refiled. And there may be some critical evidentiary aspects. There may be some part of his story that doesn't fit some of the other known facts and they're really wrestling with how to go forward. The prosecutor has to feel bad for this guy, probably doesn't want to prosecute him. Hawaii, I don't think, necessarily, is the best state to be in when you're dealing with the. . .   Shawn Vincent: As a defender. Yeah.   Don West: You've got all that stuff.   Shawn Vincent: And the fact that he didn't legally own the weapon he used -- it doesn't help.   Don West: Does not help.   Shawn Vincent: We talked about how they're mutually exclusive charges, but it doesn't make his judgment in the self-defense case look better.   Don West: And the fact of who you kill really shouldn't factor in either. Every life is worth the same, I guess would be the statement. But as a practical circumstance, he killed a 41 year old Navy veteran . . .   Shawn Vincent: Active service.   Don West: Who was about to ship off, who was serving his country, who was just blowing off a little steam before he headed out to protect us.   Shawn Vincent: Freedom and democracy.   Don West: Yeah. And that's very compelling and makes it even more tragic.   Shawn Vincent: And the victims have an influence on the prosecutors, don't they?   Don West: Sure.   Shawn Vincent: I mean the prosecutors make their decisions, but if it's the Navy saying, "We want you to get this guy." I'm not saying that they said that in this case, we don't know. But if it's a compelling -- the victim has somebody, an uncle in law enforcement and he has some sway -- they're sensitive. They're advocates for the victims.   Don West: They are, and the family of the victim, frankly, as you know, it sounds kind of crude almost, but how much noise the family of the deceased makes can impact how the decisions are made and the prosecution. Are there legions of people in protests or are the family members that are really focusing the attention on this case and maybe the media attention as well?   Shawn Vincent: You saw that in Ted Wafer too that the family was out there protesting every day until they finally filed charges.   Don West: And I know there are some cases, you and I have been involved in them, where the prosecutor's feeling so much heat, even when they think they probably don't want to file criminal charges, they either do anyway, which is sort of succumbing to the political stuff or in a lot of jurisdictions, even when they don't have to, they'll punt and put the case before the grand jury. I've seen that several times where the prosecutor has the authority to file the charges, but they decide it's kind of a hot potato.   Shawn Vincent: Like Ferguson.   Don West: Sure.   Shawn Vincent: Ferguson, Missouri where the kid shot the cop.   Don West: Other way around.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the cop shot the kid, right. I think the prosecutor wanted to null pross that, but he sent it to the grand jury.   Don West: And the grand jury cleared, and it's still controversial. So there are those cases where the prosecutors under lots of pressure from any number of angles and that's assuming true motives. You still never know when there's a political pressure somewhere because the boss wants to get reelected or you want to run for office as a prosecutor and in a close call you may make the personal choice. Who knows. I'm not . . .   Shawn Vincent: Suggesting that any of that's happening here, but it's funny it’s been dismissed and then reappointed.   Don West: Yeah. But this is another one of those examples of just a tragic outcome and we spend so much time and we wring our hands. Could something have happened that would have changed the course of this, either for the homeowner, frankly, for the deceased. It was what it was. He was just drunk and out of his mind a little bit and confused. And the homeowner . . .   Shawn Vincent: Well, we've talked before about this window of justification, that the window opens and it closes and it's only in this very specific frame work of time where use of force is justified. And we've seen cases where they fire a little bit too soon. This is one of those cases. It very well could have been 30 seconds from then the door splinters, the glass breaks, and all of a sudden now the windows open, literally opens, and then we've seen cases where like in the pharmacist's case where the perpetrator leaves and there's a final shot after the fact. Once the threat was neutralized.   Don West: That's like the person in Oklahoma city where there are shots fired after the robber is incapacitated.   Shawn Vincent: That's right.   Don West: And that's clearly viewed by the prosecutor, a guy who was viewed as sort of the hero initially by the media for stopping these armed robbers, winds up getting prosecuted and convicted of murder for shooting the robber after the robber was already down.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah. And so I think you have a case here, a guy who was almost justified and he's facing prosecution because he fired too soon. And the lesson I take from it is if I ever find myself in that circumstance, I want to be thinking about that window. If someone's calling 9-1-1, I'm thinking tactically. Where am I? There's where my daughter is. Has the window opened yet? Is that threat imminent and what would it take for that threat to be imminent? And hopefully I'll have the peace of mind, state of mind and the judgment to wait for them. But that's like I said at the beginning -- we talked about tone -- is why I get so passionate about these cases, because I can see myself there and how seconds can make the difference.   Don West: Obviously easier said than done. You would think, well the daughter goes upstairs, he retreats further up the steps maybe with still a view of the door and the gun ready and if he comes through the door and still seems to be aggressive, maybe that's a better time. It certainly would be much more justifiable when a prosecutor is sitting in the easy chair trying to decide whether to prosecute this guy or not.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, tough case.   Don West: This is one of those as so many of them we talk about that we know they're awful, they're absolutely awful, but are they lawful? And this is one that may very well be awful but lawful, but the fact that he's being prosecuted suggests that there are at least some of the authorities believed that he had other decisions he could have made, and that the decision he made to fire the gun, to take life as a consequence of it were simply not supportable under the law of self-defense.

  Don West and Shawn Vincent explore a tragic road-rage case that resulted in the unnecessary deaths of both the defender and the aggressor. The case illustrates how, for concealed carriers, road-rage is a no-win scenario.   TRANSCRIPT:  Shawn Vincent: Hey there, Don. How's it going? Don West: Great, Shawn. Good to see you again. Shawn Vincent: It's good to see you. So often, we record these things when we're in our own nomadic offices. What do we call this thing that we're doing, where we can work out of our home sometimes, or we work out of a hotel room, we work out our rental car? Don West: Isn't technology remarkable in that sense for us who need to travel as part of the way we make a living, have the luxury of traveling as well so that when we're not traveling for work, but otherwise enjoying life, we can still do the things that are important from a professional standpoint, we can still have conversations with each other and others. We're no longer tethered to the desk. Shawn Vincent: Tethered to the desk, which is case in point. I don't have an office that I go to every day. I work from my home. I work from a hotel. Yeah. I work where I need to work, sometimes from the back porch of my house, and the weather's good enough. But today, we're in a library in Winter Park, Florida. I have to say I'm surprised at how noisy librarians are. Don West: We actually had to move the room. Shawn Vincent: We moved the room here next to the employee break lounge. The librarians wouldn't shut up. They're too noisy. But here we are. Don West: That's the beauty of it. Here we are in the same part of the country for the first time in quite a while. Shawn Vincent: It's been  months anyway. Yeah. Don West: We can find a local spot. We have portable equipment, and we have laptops and cell phones and lovelier microphones. Now, we have a broadcast studio. Shawn Vincent: That's right. Even if it's a slightly echoey room. But yeah. Here's what I want to talk about with you today. You've mentioned last time we spoke that you tried your first case that involved a violent crime before a jury about 30 years ago. Don West: Yeah. I've been thinking now probably early '80s. So we're talking probably '82, '83, in that range. I was working at the public defender's office in Seminole County, Florida, which turned out to be the same venue more than 30 years later for the George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin trial, which is kind of the backyard for Mark O'Mara and me for such a long, long time. My first self-defense case, lethal self-defense case to a jury was a local Seminole County prosecuted case. It was domestic in nature. My client was a woman who stabbed and killed her husband in self-defense, and it goes back that long ago. There've been a number of them since. They're all unique, even though there are common threads of course and common legal issues. Don West: Interestingly enough, in that case, there was a reversal on appeal because she was convicted of a lesser offense because of jury instructions. The court denied her the opportunity of the castle doctrine. Then on appeal, the appellate court said, no, she was in a home that she lived in. Even though they were estranged, and she was just there temporarily, it was still her house. So she had no duty to retreat, and then reversed, got a new trial, and the case resolved. Shawn Vincent: That's really interesting. So castle doctrine doesn't have to refer to only your primary residence if it's a home where you have a right to be. Don West: They were equal occupants. Shawn Vincent: Equal occupants. Yeah. Don West: That's right. Shawn Vincent: That's interesting. You're just as protected by castle doctrine at your beach house if you're lucky enough to have one as you are in your primary residence then. Don West: Yeah. It was interesting because one of the factual issues that led to that was that she had an opportunity to leave without re-engaging him and chose not to. The confrontation turned lethal, and she had been denied the defense basically of the castle doctrine. The jury was instructed she had a duty to retreat under the circumstances. Even though they didn't buy the prosecution argument that it was murder, she was still convicted of a lesser offense and sentenced to a prison sentence. So the case was appealed. We won on appeal, and the whole thing worked out in her favor at that point. But it was a good example of how one... We talk about so often how one- Shawn Vincent: About the nuances. Don West: ... little thing makes such a huge difference. Frankly, let's fast forward, how many years to the Marissa Alexander Case in Jacksonville? Shawn Vincent: You were talking about that. It made me think of Marissa Alexander situation. Don West: I hope we do a deep dive in that case at some point. But long story short is she was prosecuted for essentially firing a warning shot at an estranged... I don't know if they were still married, but it was an ex-relationship of sorts. She felt threatened and fired a gun, had lost, I believe, the self-defense immunity hearing, went to trial, was convicted and initially sentenced to I think 20 years in prison. Shawn Vincent: 20 years. Three 20-year sentences to be served consecutively because there was the husband or the estranged father, some children, and two children were present. So she fires one shot, which she called a warning shot that struck nobody, went into the wall and then to the ceiling and the room next to her. Angela Corey and her crew, who we've had experience with, decided that they'd charged her with attempted murder times three. Don West: Yeah. Not to get too far off-track, but in that case, she was convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison term and won a reversal. I think out of all of that stuff that was so controversial and was so divisive, even within the legal community, she winds up I think getting a new trial because of a jury instruction issue. Don West: So she comes back. She gets a redo and gets some new lawyers and some maybe new prosecutors. But in any event, there's a resolution of the case that's favorable. But she spent at least some time in prison. I believe is a convicted felon even as a result of what turned out to be negotiated outside. Shawn Vincent: So I promise you we are going to do a deep dive into that case relatively soon. I also have some bad news for you, Don. 1982, '83 was way more than 30 years ago. Don West: Oh, Shawn. Say it isn't so. Shawn Vincent: So they get closer and then- Don West: Oh my goodness. I guess you're right. Shawn Vincent: 37, some years ago. You and I were talking one time, and he said, "A few years ago something happened." I said, "Is that an actual a few years ago, Don, or is that like the old man, 15 years ago actually, but it feels like just a few years ago?" Don West: That does feel just like a few years ago to me. I say 30 thinking that- Shawn Vincent: That's long enough. How could anything have happened 30 years ago that I can remember, right? I'm middle-aged now, which I'm starting to get into my head that... When I climb stairs, it becomes apparent to me that I'm middle-aged now. Or when I tell the same stories over and over again, which I'm prone to do. My kids know, I apologize. I'd probably told you this story before, and like, "Yeah, Daddy. You have a lot of stories that you tell over and over again. Mommy has one story that she tells over and over again." That's the difference that my kids have determined. Shawn Vincent: So I bring that up only because I think you've told this story before, and some avid listeners may have heard it. But because we're getting older and it's our prerogative, we're going to tell this story again. Because today we'll be talking about a road rage case. You told me about a self-defense case, a road rage case where you're quizzing potential jurors during jury selection and got a surprising answer. Don West: That's exactly right. I remember it clearly as well as I can remember anything, clearly. Shawn Vincent: Was it 30 years ago? Don West: At my advanced age. Yeah. It wasn't 30 because it was clearly... I think it was after the first one I was telling you. [inaudible 00:09:30] has long since gone beyond the public defender's office and full-time practice criminal defense laws, state and federal in private practice and the Orlando area and places beyond. But in any event, I had this jury trial, was a case that could not be resolved. My client was charged with second-degree murder, with the use of a firearm, which would have likely resulted in either a life sentence or such a long sentence that it would have effectively been the rest of his life. Don West: We picked a jury. We're picking a jury. The overview of the case, and I don't name names in these cases because these are people that are with us right now, somewhere maybe even in this community who as a result of this event were prosecuted, were facing lengthy prison sentence. By good luck, and I'd like to think some good lawyering and some favorable facts are no longer facing that, that they were acquitted. They got to live the rest of their life, and I see no reason to bring them back into it now. Don West: I can certainly swear to you that none of this is made up. It's part of the life experience of individuals that we know personally because we've been involved in their lives and the life of criminal defense lawyers and litigation consultants. But we were picking a jury, and obviously, one of the issues we want to know and explore with jurors is their attitude about firearms, the use of firearms, self-defense, even generally attitude about the second amendment and their views. Firearms, the use of firearms, licensed, unlicensed, possession of firearms has always been controversial. Don West: Fortunately, in Florida the lawyers have wide berth in personally questioning the jurors during the voir dire, some people pronounce it, the jury selection process. I was kind of humming along, talking to jurors, kind of in my own mind, selecting the ones I would like to keep if I could and mentally getting ready to challenge the ones I didn't think would be good for this case. The overview of the facts that my client and some friends had gone to a nightclub. My client had a gun. He left it in the car, as he should have, to go into the club and inside the club was being hassled by somebody. I never understood exactly why someone who may have had a connection to one of the other friends, but no big deal. Don West: Then they leave at the end of the night, go out into the parking area, and this guy shows up and starts harassing my client again. It gets a little bit physical. My client retreats to the car thinking that it's safe there, purposely trying not to engage them, and the guy's not content with letting it go and essentially attacks the car, start slamming into it, kicking the windows. Eventually, it got so frightening to my client. He felt so threatened and vulnerable. There was no place for him to go that, as he smashed the car one last time, he shot the gun, and tragically, it killed him. He was being prosecuted for second-degree murder. Don West: From a legal standpoint, my client was the passenger in the rear seat, could not control the car. The driver of the car wound up testifying that he was stuck in traffic. Everybody was leaving at that point. There was nowhere he could go- Shawn Vincent: Sure. Pinned in. Don West: ... to try to go away, pinned in. Whether it was good luck again or brilliant lawyering, I don't know. But before the trial was over, the driver actually testified that he was scared, and had he been my client, he would have done the same thing. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Out of reasonableness standard. Don West: Yeah. So back to the jury selection issue. I'm questioning jurors about their knowledge of firearms, whether they have guns at home or in their cars and how they feel about self-defense in general. I was talking to a juror who was very pro-gun. He had a lot of firearms. He was proud of it too, was an advocate for the Second Amendment and outspoken about it. I'm initially thinking this is pretty good stuff for me. This is a guy who starts for me defending my client from the right perspective. Then I wanted to get a little bit more information about his practice and views, especially when it comes to cars. Don West: So I'm talking with him, and I say, "Well, I know you have firearms at home, and you believe in the right to protect yourself and others. Do you have a gun in your car?" In Florida, you can have a gun in your car without a concealed carry permit if it's under certain circumstances. So people can have guns in their cars that don't otherwise not allowed to carry them concealed. I just assumed it would be true, and I said, "So when you're out in your car, do you have a gun? Do you keep it in your glove box or somewhere?" He goes, "Oh my goodness. No." Shawn Vincent: No. Don West: It threw me back. I couldn't believe. Here's the guy. I thought it was a softball question. I never expected “no.” So in jury selection, you actually should ask why or why not, questions you would never ask on cross-examination because you really- Shawn Vincent: Sure. But those sorts of conversations, you really bring up other people's opinions, right? Don West: You want to know what they think, right? Whether it's good or bad, you need to know what it is. So I say, "Why not?" He goes, "I can't trust myself. I have a quick fuse when I am in a difficult traffic situation, and somebody cuts me off or flips me off. I don't think I can keep myself from reaching for that gun and waving it around. God forbid that I should ever take it to the next step, but I purposely don't have a gun in my car because I can't trust myself not to use it when I'm so pissed as I get when I'm driving a car and some idiot cuts me off." Shawn Vincent: Wow. That's some remarkable self-awareness, right? Don West: It is. It is. To his credit, I guess, whatever works for you because we have encountered our own series of road rage cases, whether it's doing this kind of work or just in the cases that we've touched and in legal work to know how volatile and how deadly that stuff becomes sometimes for apparently no reason, at least no good reason. Shawn Vincent: We see these cases where inside the course of a minute, you can go from running errands to being in a gunfight. Don West: Yeah. People that have never known each other, never expected, never would have known each other, but for the circumstance that brings them together. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Now, aside from more than 30 years as a criminal defense lawyer, you're at your national trial counsel for CCW Safe? Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: What does that mean? Don West: As national trial counsel for CCW safe, I see in some way or another, all of the cases involving our members that come to the company, all of the claims, I see them at some point. Most of the time, I take the phone call from the member who has just experienced or is currently even involved in a self-defense scenario to help identify the resources they need. I identify and retain counsel on their behalf. Oftentimes I'll go to the location where the incident took place, attend court proceedings and become involved in marshaling and monitoring and helping fund their defense. I even consult with their local counsel for strategy. In some cases I've had a lot of contact with the member through the process, discussing the case and even doing mock examinations, practice cross-examinations, this sort of trial preparation stuff that helps the members feel confident that they're able to communicate effectively with the court and with the jury. Shawn Vincent: Sure. There's a lot of other podcasts in the CCW Safe family of podcasts. Specifically, I'm a litigation consultant. I've had the great privilege to work with a lot of great attorneys on very interesting cases. I get to help pick juries from time to time. You and I have picked juries together before. I've been able to help you in voir dire. The focus of our podcast is to talk about the legal ramifications to a use of force incident, when somebody feels they need to use their weapon in justifiable self-defense, that next fight that we talk about. They've survived the first fight with the aggression that they faced, and now, there's this potential legal challenge to whether they're justified or not. So we look at these- Don West: We look at the broad spectrum of that from post-incident when the smoke has cleared. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Now, how does the law look at that? Don West: Now, what happens? Yes. We hope by providing this kind of information and written stuff and communicating with the members even one-on-one, the first interaction with law enforcement, for example, and from that point forward, what to expect if the case is referred for prosecution? What happens if you're arrested? What to expect in court. How much it would cost, frankly, if you were funding it yourself. Fortunately, CCW Safe members don't pay anything for the cost of the legal defense should they be involved in a self-defense incident. Shawn Vincent: So now, as you're in your role as... trying because you've had a chance to talk to a lot of members. Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. You've told me before that when we look at these road rage incidents, those are one of the most likely scenarios where concealed carriers could find themselves in a very difficult whole situation very quickly. Don West: I've been involved in road rage cases on behalf of CCW Safe where shots were fired, where people were prosecuted for that, again, to people that never knew each other, that somehow get involved in something that escalates to potential lethal violence. But a lot of it is the loss of emotional control that ends up from a legal standpoint in a brandishing or an assault, somebody that displays a weapon under circumstances that are as considered reckless or threatening and winds up in somebody getting arrested and being prosecuted. We see that, frankly, all too often. In my experience, it's the easiest way for people to wind up that are otherwise living normal lives in a potential lethal situation and often in a legal situation that results in being prosecuted for something. Shawn Vincent: Right. You're trying to specifically just about brandishing a weapon. You're in your car, things have gotten heated with somebody else. Maybe you feel threatened, maybe you're just angry, and you have a gun in the dashboard or in the center console, and you pull it out and show that you have it. Don West: Yes. Exactly. Right. We see more of those in a road rage context than under any other fact pattern that I can think of. Shawn Vincent: Kind of just lose their minds on the road. Don West: That's a great way of saying it. They just become crazy, don't they? Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Don West: Everyone listening, and I know I can give you half a dozen incidents myself that I remember that moment when something happened that took just driving down the road to the next level where I wanted to react. I did react emotionally, maybe by yelling or perhaps more gesturing. But to think how quickly that can go when two people are willing to engage, both people then feel offended and violated, and then it just climbs the ladder to the point that somebody takes- Shawn Vincent: They introduced a gun, and to the situation, they can get violent. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the first time my children ever heard the term “douchebag” was because of some sort of traffic incident that I was involved with. So let's look at our road rage case, right? This is going to be unique in the cases that we've looked at, in that, in this case, nobody was charged because everybody involved ended up dead. A lot of the cases- Don West: This is as tragic as any case we've talked about and is unnecessary as any case we ever talked about. Shawn Vincent: Right. A lot of the times, the worst case scenario in a case is that somebody is dead, and the shooter's determined to be unjustified even when there seemed to be some reason for them to have reasonable fear. So this case, we're going to go... This is Davie, Florida, so famous in Florida for being the first stage of ground state. We have a guy named Keith Byrne. He's a 40-year-old father of three. He's a Marine veteran, and he's driving a utility truck. He's on the phone with a friend, probably shouldn't be, and inadvertently cuts off another guy who's driving a blue BMW. It's 22-year-old Andre Sinclair. He's also a father. In fact, he's got the mother of his child and his child in his BMW. Shawn Vincent: They come to a red light. Now, Byrne reportedly rolled down his window and said, "My bad." This is what the friend of his who was on the phone with him testified to. So he says he hears, "My bad." So we think that Byrne's trying to apologize for cutting the guy off, and then he hears shots fired. What we learned from local reporting and from the law enforcement agency that investigated is that Sinclair gets out of his BMW. He's armed with a gun, and he approaches Byrne's truck. I think I remember hearing some suggestion that Sinclair fired first. Don West: Here's where I was confused, just for a second, as you were outlining those facts, because I had read at least one article on this. I think maybe Sinclair might even have been a passenger in the BMW. Shawn Vincent: That might be true. Don West: I think maybe his girlfriend was driving the car, and their child was in the car. Clearly, that Byrne cut him off and was apparently ready to acknowledge fault, I guess whatever traffic incident there was. So this even becomes a little more confusing and complicated. But let's assume all of that to be true, that Sinclair is the passenger in the BMW, his girlfriend drives, stops the car. Even under that scenario, Sinclair gets out of the vehicle to approach Byrne's utility truck. Byrne rolls the window down and by the account of the friend who overhears some of it on the phone call was preparing to or had already begun apologizing and accepting responsibility for whatever traffic incident took place. Shawn Vincent: Right. But what happens instead is there's an exchange of gunfire. Perhaps Sinclair fires first. Byrne returns fire. Byrne is struck in the chest. He dies in the seat of his utility vehicle. Sinclair is struck less critically, but nonetheless fatally. He's taken to the hospital, and he dies later. Now, the police come immediately, and they investigate this. One of the officers who does the PR for the law enforcement agency said that they would have, after a brief investigation, arrested Sinclair had he not died of his injuries. So from what we know, he's clearly the aggressor here and by that account, Byrne justified in returning fire. You get someone pulling a gun and approaching your vehicle, especially if they're shooting, that's as justified as you can get, right? Don West: Yeah. It may not even matter legally at that point who shot first. If Byrne is there in his truck, and he sees Sinclair approaching him, sees a weapon and sees Sinclair prepared to use it, you put all of that stuff together, and looks to me like an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death, the ability to use deadly force. I don't know what may have been said. This is another one. We don't know what happened. We only know the roughest outline because we don't know if Byrne saw Sinclair with the gun and reacted to that right or who fired first or whether Sinclair got the gun with the purpose of shooting Byrne as he got out of his car and approached him or if Byrne sees the gun, reacts to that, Sinclair reacts to Byrne's gun, who had reacted just . . . Shawn Vincent: Those are all those nuances that you've talked about, the fact that. . . We've looked at nine different cases where we followed them all the way through the court case right up to verdict and sometimes into appeal, and during that process, lots of details come out. Some of this stuff, we're only able to talk about what reporters who were there in the courtroom talked about. You and I know there's all sorts of other stuff that jurors saw and beyond that stuff that the lawyers fought to keep out from the case, right? Don West: Of course, yeah. Shawn Vincent: So you can thin slice these things to the most minute degree. So we're talking in broad terms here about these cases. But in this case, what I see is here's a guy who, in all accounts, was justified, this is Byrne, in using deadly force. What little good that does him now because he's dead. There's something that Sergeant Leone from the law enforcement agency said about road rage scenarios. If you find yourself in one, just leave the area, even if you have to turn on a different street, right? I think one of the four elements of self-defense that we talked about in those nine cases that went to trial that we examined, one of those elements is deescalation, right, and that when you're a concealed carrier, and you have the weapon that can end all confrontations, that you have a responsibility to avoid confrontations whenever you can. Shawn Vincent: We're talking about how angry people get in traffic and how quickly you said that these road rage instances are the only things we can go from zero to 100 in seconds, right? Don West: You lose your mind. Yeah. This is the first time that we're really talking about some of those actual nuances. But let's take a minute, even if it doesn't get us anywhere at the end. Let's take a minute just in our human experience and our human experience with road rage and our experience understanding human nature and stuff and just imagine a couple of ways that this could have played out. We know the end was tragic. Both people died. We can assume the worst, especially on Sinclair's part because he got out of the car with the gun. He clearly started it. But can't you imagine that Sinclair is angry because he got cut off? We don't know what Byrne may have done, whether there was other stuff said or done or what have you. Don West: Let's say Sinclair gets out with the gun being a jerk with the idea of just scaring the hell out of Byrne and saying, he gets out the gun and he wants to wave it at him and point him. He wants to brandish it. Not that he intends to shoot him at that point, but let's say he wants in his mind to teach him a lesson. Shawn Vincent: He doesn't know that this guy is a gun packing Marine veteran. He thinks he's only one with a gun, and- Don West: So he wants- Shawn Vincent: ... "I'm going to show him." Don West: Right. "I'll show him." So he gets out with the gun. He walks up to the car. Now Byrne's pretty confused. Here's a guy that he wants to apologize to for the traffic violation, and now he's coming at him with a gun. What is Byrne's natural response going to be to that? He has to think. He just has to think that Sinclair got out of the car with the gun to come up there and shoot him. It isn't likely statistically that that would happen. It's probably much more likely that he intended to scare him or just be a jerk. Shawn Vincent: But that's not a gamble anyone wants to take. Don West: No. He has to assume at that point. He got out of the gun for the purpose of walking up there and as stupid and ridiculous and as criminal as that is that that's a very possible outcome. So he has to get his gun, doesn't he, at that point to defend himself? Who knows that at that point Byrne doesn't see... I'm sorry, that Sinclair doesn't see Byrne's gun, and now it's two guys within a few feet of each other with guns, both of them feeling the other one's going to shoot them. In fact, that's what happened. Both guys are shooting, both guys die. Don West: I think all of that because Sinclair got out of the car with a gun under circumstances that could never ever warrant that kind of response. It was stupid to get out of the car even if he wanted to give Byrne a piece of his mind. He walks up there and yells at him and walks away. But as soon as he escalates it to the point that- Shawn Vincent: Sinclair, that is, brings the gun out. Yeah. Don West: Yeah. Sinclair escalates it to the point that Byrne thinks he's in a life-threatening situation. There's no place to go. Shawn Vincent: So essentially, it's mutually assured destruction, right? That you've got two people who are armed in a confrontation that happened with low context, right? They're not communicating. All of a sudden, the first attempt to communicate may have been seen as an escalation. You roll down your window. Maybe he's planning to get into it. That's a complication. Don West: That's a terrific point that, from Sinclair's perspective, as he approaches the vehicle, the window goes down, and he may very well have interpreted that as a willingness for Byrne to engage. Shawn Vincent: To increase the engagement. Don West: Right. Why would he think that, all of a sudden, Byrne was going to apologize, right? Shawn Vincent: Right. That doesn't seem the most likely. Don West: So that is a recipe for disaster. Shawn Vincent: Well, yeah. So as soon as the guns are introduced in that scenario, if both people are armed, you've just lit a fuse, right? It's almost- Don West: It's like the- Shawn Vincent: ... a point of no return here. Don West: It's like the two guys standing in a pool of gasoline each holding a match. I'm sure you've seen that poster somewhere, right? It's assured mutual destruction. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. So nobody's going to argue in this case that Byrne did anything wrong, right? Necessarily. He's certainly justified, and even the police are going to put all of the blame on Sinclair. If they both lived, Sinclair is the one that gets arrested and charged with murder or attempted murder if they both lived, right? Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: But that doesn't change the reality for Byrne that now that he's in this situation that this horrific result is most likely the one that's going to come across. Don West: Absolutely. Shawn Vincent: So what that means is if you're a concealed carrier, if you have a gun in your vehicle, then you want to avoid at all costs the confrontation that could potentially light that fuse and get you in a no-win shootout over whatever minor traffic violation that happened. Don West: You can in hindsight look back and try to pick some points in time where something different could have happened. This is maybe a once in 100 million scenario. At the same time, the only way that would have stopped it for sure was for Byrne not to engage even in an attempt to be pleasant about it. Shawn Vincent: Right. Even to go into a step further and just change course just to get away from the guy. Right? Even if he's going to a couple blocks in the wrong direction, just get disengaged completely because there's no way to apologize in that situation. Don West: I think if Byrne sees Sinclair get out of the car, I'm going to assume for a moment that they were both at the red light, so that Sinclair's car was legitimately behind. They weren't both pulled off the side of the road, stop, but that Byrne stopped at a red light and that Sinclair's girlfriend stopped behind him. But as soon as Byrne realizes Sinclair gets out, he has to run the light. He has to do something to physically get away because there is no good outcome at that point. He can't take the chance to engage for fear of exactly what happened. Shawn Vincent: Now, we talked about all the interactions that you have with CCW Safe members. I recall you talking about a member who shared a story with you about a road rage incident where he was able to disengage. Now, we're not going to use names or anything. But you remember the story where they ended up at a stop sign in a relatively rural place? Don West: Yes, yes. I do remember. I'll just kind of paint a very big overview of it. But there was the potential for a serious road rage incident. I don't know if it started with someone being cut off or some perceived injustice. As often happens, one person starts following the other closely. You've seen those people that run up, and tailgates are real close, or they pull out around and slow down in front of you. Shawn Vincent: Sure. I've heard about that. Don West: Just being aggravating and trying to get you to engage. This was a similar scenario, where the guy got in front of him and then stopped at a stop sign or a stoplight. The member ultimately who was behind him at this point saw him start to get out of the vehicle. Essentially, he was blocked in from the front, and I think, if I remember correctly, he either believed he was going to get out or didn't even want to take the chance that he might get out and engage face to face. So he did the one logical thing that he could do. Fortunately, under the circumstances, he put his car in reverse and he just simply drove back 75 or 100 yards and watched what happened. I think, yes, at that point, the guy got out of the car, looked at him, then got back in the car and left. Shawn Vincent: It's such a befuddling move at that point, and it was clearly a disengagement. It was as simple like, "I'm not messing with you. You win." Now- Don West: Now, at that point that if the other driver attempts to engage, he's got 100 yards to walk or 50 yards to walk where the other driver can then reassess and calculate and decide what to do at that point, what other kind of evasive action to take or what have you. I thought that was so smart. It's gutsy to me in the sense that you don't want to give in. You don't want to throw up your hands and surrender. You want to meet face to face the idiot who if not causing the problem to start with is reacting unfairly to you, blaming you for something that even if you did it wrong, it wasn't that bad. It certainly doesn't warrant that kind of disproportional reaction. All of a sudden, it just starts churning, and people do such incredibly foolish and dangerous things. Shawn Vincent: I know. I know. Some of the best marital advice I've ever gotten was the idea, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy, right? So I’m quite content being wrong and happy frequently. I think in self-defense or something, somebody said, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be alive, or do you want to be right and have someone's blood on your hands from a conflict that could have been avoided?" Don West: Anytime you decide to engage somebody in one of those situations, you are making the assumption that they will act reasonably and rationally even under an emotional circumstance. That's a bad assumption because there's a lot of crazy volatile people in this world, and even otherwise pretty stable normal people have trigger points, and for some reason, it seems to be, driving is one of them that- Shawn Vincent: Yeah. At the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about how often you'll field phone calls where people are in trouble for brandishing while driving, right? So brandishing is in most places, I think in Florida, it's just true is considered an assault, right? If you brandish a weapon, that's a threat of deadly force. Don West: Yeah. It depends on where you are. Not all states have the crime of brandishing, but they all have some variation on assault. Assault is typically a pointed threat to someone. For example, if you point a gun at somebody, you're often guilty of the crime of aggravated assault. That would be assault without the intent to kill. It means non-justified assault, essentially. Shawn Vincent: As opposed to a defensive display. We've talked about that before, where you're neutralizing a threat by demonstrating that you have force and are willing to use it and -- Don West: When you would have the right to use force. So the reckless display or the aggravated assault is when you don't have the right to do that. Assault is often intentional and pointed in a lot of places, has a mandatory prison sentence that involves a firearm. Brandishing is more of a reckless kind of waving around, threatening, not necessarily pointed at somebody for the purpose of shooting them or even for the purpose of making them think you're going to. But it's kind of a reckless display and is still a criminal offense. It can be a serious criminal offense. Shawn Vincent: Here's why I bring this up. Don West: But non-justified. It's not brandishing if you did it in response to a legitimate bonafide threat. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: The problem is a lot of times it's not. It's too much force. It's trying to win the argument to prove that you're the one who's capable of using force. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. So here's why I bring that up. I'm thinking about this case. We talked about, way some time ago, Indiana, south of Indianapolis in a rural community. We have two neighbors, one of them is a firefighter, and the other one is this crazy-haired wild guy. You know Laura Dern's father? What's his name, that actor? Don West: Bruce? Bruce Dern. Shawn Vincent: Bruce Dern. Picture Bruce Dern with his hair all crazy, acting crazy like Bruce Dern does. This is his neighbor. Apparently, they'd been at it for years. There's a fence dividing their property, the firefighters out working in his yard. He's got a security camera out there, full-color security camera recording for some reason, maybe because he's had problems with his neighbor before, right? So the neighbors there. They get at it. I don't know if you can hear what they're saying, but they're shouting at each other. This Bruce Dern neighbor, he's on his riding mower, and they exchange words. I think there's finger flicking exchanged. Then the lawnmower goes off frame, right? Then it comes back on frame. The Bruce Dern character on the mower picks up this revolver. He puts it in the air, and he shakes it. Kind of there's waves that like, "Hey, asshole. I've got a gun." Shawn Vincent: Well, his neighbor, when he does garden work apparently is carrying his pistol that's loaded with 16 rounds, and he pulls it out and just unloads the whole thing on this guy. Couple of rounds hit him, and he falls off. The rest of the rounds hit the lawnmower. Miraculously, the neighbor stands up, walks back inside and calls for help, and he dies in his house. But all this is to say that brandishing may be illegal but is also the best way to get yourself shot. Don West: Oh, sure. Shawn Vincent: Right? Let's imagine in this case that Sinclair didn't have any intention to murder Byrne for cutting him off, but was trying to most likely really be the big shot here, right, by introducing the gun into it. You don't know who's carrying and who's not. I think Sinclair assumed Byrne didn't have a gun and that he had no control of this situation. Don West: I think that's highly more probable than that Sinclair had gotten out of the vehicle with the intent of shooting him. I think you're right. He lost control, and all hell broke loose. It's interesting when we're talking about brandishing because, picture this scenario if you would. We talk about things that are really a bad idea. But they aren't necessarily against the law. Picture yourself in a parking lot, and two people are vying for a parking space. One of them sneaks in and grabs it, and you're angry because by all rights, that was your spot. Shawn Vincent: He unclaimed it. Don West: Yeah. You had been waiting for it, and this guy sneaks right in front of you, and you pull right behind him, and you get out of your car and walk up to this guy's window to give him a piece of your mind. That's not illegal. You can cuss out somebody. You can yell at him. You can go up there and criticize his driving and say, "You low life, what a lousy thing to do? I hope your kids don't see what kind of a ..." Shawn Vincent: S.O.B. you are. Yeah. Don West: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a free exchange of ideas. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Ideas. Don West: Okay. But if the guy behind the wheel, and if the guy doesn't threaten him, if he doesn't raise a hand, if he doesn't do anything other than yell at him, you don't have the right to use force in response to that. You can't hit him because he thinks you're a lousy driver. Shawn Vincent: Meaning you the driver of his car. You can't- Don West: Yeah. You can't reach into your glove box or on your seat and raise a gun to point out to him because you don't like what he says. Shawn Vincent: Because he's in your window giving you a piece of his mind. Don West: A lot of this stuff I think starts out even like that. A guy that's a bit of a hothead but not necessarily intending any harm or any violence and just- Shawn Vincent: Not necessarily wrong about the traffic, right? Don West: ... puts themselves in a situation where it becomes volatile, not intending that it will ever go anymore. But they just want to vent. They want you to know for sure what a jerk you are, and then one little thing compounds, and another little thing. Pretty soon, somebody feels a little bit threatened. Then, in response, to the other person feels threatened. Then, pretty soon, either it escalates to violence, and the person who hits first is wrong, they're committing a crime, or the person that raises the gun has now introduced lethal force into what's otherwise a non-self-defense scenario and is guilty of a crime. Shawn Vincent: So this makes me- Don West: That is brandishing. Shawn Vincent: This makes me think of the Ronald Gasser case. Don West: Wow, sure. Shawn Vincent: So we got to- Don West: What a road rage case that is. Shawn Vincent: ... New Orleans. It's Ronald Gasser. So he doesn't know that this guy that he cut off is Joe McKnight, a former Jets player, a local football hero who made good. Don West: And the son of one of the sheriff- Shawn Vincent: I don't recall that detail. Don West: I may be mistaken by that, I apologize. I thought even his family may even have been connected to law enforcement. Shawn Vincent: He's a local hero. But they didn't arrest Gasser originally. There was a lot of pressure to make an arrest. There is a racial thing too. Gasser's white, McKnight's black. The community was upset when there wasn't an arrest immediately. But notwithstanding, Gasser cuts off McKnight. There's a several mile, what the law enforcement described as a tit-for-tat road rage incident. They're cutting each other off and driving. People thought they were drag racing down. They had security cameras from multiple businesses showing them going till at least a couple of miles later. They come to an intersection where there's cars behind them. There's no room to navigate anymore. This scenario, no one's going to back up 100 yards. Right? Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: What we know is that McKnight gets out of his car and comes over to Gasser's vehicle whose window is down. There's at least one witness who suggests that Gasser said, "No, you come here." As in they were engaging with each other. McKnight comes to Gasser, leans into the window of the vehicle, meaning his hands, forearms, crossed the threshold of Gasser's rolled down driver's window. That's when Gasser says he felt threatened. He had a gun that he had already pulled out on a seat. He fires three times. McKnight dies. Gasser's eventually arrested. Eventually found guilty of second-degree murder. I think he just lost his last appeal. Don West: He has a substantial prison sentence as a result of it, I think. Shawn Vincent: Yeah, at least 17 years. Yeah. So McKnight wasn't armed. We know that actually there was a gun in the vehicle that he was in. He didn't bring it out with him. But this encounter, I don't know if Gasser was trying to apologize, like Byrne was in this scenario that we talked about earlier, but you've got somebody coming up to your window. You're penned in in traffic. You're strapped in with a seatbelt. You're very vulnerable. It's a scary situation. But- Don West: But apparently, Gasser rolled the window down. There's no evidence that McKnight smashed the window. Correct? I think what was really in dispute was what McKnight's intentions were, even if he put his hands on the window frame of the door. Was that a threatening gesture, or was he just sort of resting there as he leaned in to give Gasser a piece of his mind. Shawn Vincent: The appellate court just decided that that was not an aggressive gesture. Right? That that didn't because- Don West: So you could not respond to with force. Shawn Vincent: That's right. Because in Louisiana, they actually have on the books a law where crossing that threshold could open the door to a use of force incident, like a breaking and entry kind of thing, right? You've told me before that reaching into someone's vehicle in some places can be considered a felony, right? Don West: A very serious felony. If you were to reach through an open window and hit somebody in the face that could under Florida law be considered burglary of a conveyance with an assault or with a battery, which could make it a very, very serious felony, as opposed to a misdemeanor if you just happen to hit somebody -- a battery. When you combine that with penetrating the space of the vehicle, it's like reaching through a window of a house and hitting somebody. It's a protected space. So the crime is additional crimes and enhanced crime. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. But if you rolled the window down, or if you open the door, you're changing the scenario a little bit, aren't you? As- Don West: Yeah. It's an invitation. It's consent of burglary has to be nonconsensual. So you can't open the door of your house or your car, invite someone in and then claim that they burglarized your place. If you invite somebody into your house, and then you get into a fight with them, and they hit you, that doesn't make it a burglary. Shawn Vincent: Right. So we did the case out of Dearborn, Michigan, Ted Wafer case, where he shot Renisha McBride, where there's that threshold where the big mistake was that Ted Wafer opened the door in the middle of the night to a person who was pounding on it. He thought they were trying to break in, but you don't open the door for someone who's trying to break in, is the lesson there. So I think the lesson here, where we're always looking for the lesson for the concealed carriers in these cases that we look at, and the lesson here is you don't roll down your window in a road rage incident. I don't think anything can ever good come of it. It's an escalation. It's an invitation. Don West: You made a great comment when we were talking about what Byrne did obviously in an attempt to begin accepting responsibility and apologizing how that could be misconstrued as a willingness to further engage and is not going to be assumed as being a friendly gesture. I think that it's going to be assumed as enhancing the level of hostility, frankly, misinterpreted so easily. Shawn Vincent: So what I've written about this case, I basically called road rage a no-win situation for a concealed carrier. I think that the end, the only way to avoid it is to go. Don West: Even if you're right. Even if it's the other guy's fault. Shawn Vincent: Especially if you're right. Yeah. Just go the other way. Get out of the way. Drive conspicuously in the opposite direction to send the signal that you're not going to engage, that it's over, and then only if they've relentlessly followed you- Don West: I made the comment that Byrne should have run the red light. I don't mean literally run the red light, but maybe- Shawn Vincent: If it were safe for him to do so- Don West: Maybe if- Shawn Vincent: ... or to turn right or to ... Don West: Whatever it took for him to improve his position of safety rather than exposing himself to the risk of not knowing what Sinclair had in mind as he was approaching his vehicle. Frankly, if he got a glimpse of the gun, he would have to assume the worst at that point. Shawn Vincent: That sounds like a good last word on this case. Always a pleasure to chat with you, Don. Don West: We don't always know where we're going, but we eventually get there, and- Shawn Vincent: That's true about every place. Don West: I enjoy these conversations greatly. I think that sometimes we may cover the same ground, but it's slightly from a different perspective, maybe from someone else's eyes as opposed to the way we first talk about it. I have to think that this stuff isn't hard, but that doesn't... It's not complicated, but that doesn't make it easy, I guess. It takes a lot of thinking and visualizing and frankly being very, very conservative in how you deal with people. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. You approached me with the opportunity to work with CCW Safe and tell some of these stories, right, to communicate to the members some of the benefit of the experience that we've had together and what we- Don West: Sure. That's right. Shawn Vincent: ... see from here. I was excited about the opportunity because I believe in the Second Amendment, and I believe in the right to defend yourself. But I've seen, through my work, so many people get it wrong and people I think should be free go to jail for the rest of their lives because I don't think they had the imagination to understand what would happen to them after the fact. Most defendants that I've had a chance to work with don't even understand how a trial unfolds. When they pulled the trigger, they had no concept of all the legal nuances that they would face for doing something that they felt and had felt for a long time they were justified in doing. Shawn Vincent: So like you say, it's difficult, but it's not complicated. I think really what we're trying to do is open people's imaginations as to how these things actually play out, how the aftermath of these things actually unfold in real life through stories that we find from people who've gone through them. Don West: I think we learn by that. I know that when I used to study for a test, it was always good for me to take practice tests to put myself in a similar situation. That was usually more helpful to me in figuring out how to pass the test. I was going to take than it was just studying the material in a vacuum, actually looking at it in -- Shawn Vincent: What's the practical application that you're going to be facing -- Don West: Exactly. I think we do that a little bit. I think every time we expose people to the things that we've learned, that we've been exposed to by looking at this stuff and having experienced it, that we create an opportunity for people to connect with the information that they might not connect with if they just read a pamphlet or read a book on self-defense law. So that's -- Shawn Vincent: There you go. Don West: ... enjoyable. As always, thank you. Shawn Vincent: Thanks for talking. Don West: Look forward to the next time we get together in person or across the country. Shawn Vincent: Or through the powers of technology. Don West: You bet that, Shawn. Shawn Vincent: Don, take care.

    Don West and Shawn Vincent explore two home invasion cases, with a focus on the choices the defenders made that justified their use of force, and the decisions that could have increased their legal jeopardy.   TRANSCRIPT: Shawn Vincent: Hey, Don. Good to see you again. Don West: Shawn, as always, nice to see you. Shawn Vincent: So, I’ve got to ask some questions. You're, as most people know by now, a career criminal defense attorney. Don West: Right, that's actually all I've ever done. I started my legal career at the public defender's office and have never prosecuted, so I understand and respect that job and there are lots of criminal defense lawyers that used to be prosecutors, but not me. Shawn Vincent: Sure. And so I'm a litigation consultant, which is less straightforward, so I don't get to represent people. I don't try cases, I don't pick juries, I don't take depositions. But I have had a great opportunity to work with a lot of interesting lawyers on theme and theory aspects of the case. I've gotten into the legal mind even though I'm not a lawyer. Shawn Vincent: I bring this all up because I want to see if you share the same problem that I have. Today, I took my kids to see Spider-Man, in the movie theaters, and this movie, like so many other action-type movies, I can't help but to count up all the felonies and misdemeanors that are committed throughout the course of the film, or tally up the civil liability that's being assessed while all this violence is going on. I'm just curious if this has ever crossed your mind watching a film, where you're like, "That's a felony, you can't do that." Don West: You have to suspend disbelief and I suppose suspend any notion of accountability either. Otherwise, every scene has something that would land somebody in hot water of some sort. Shawn Vincent: Right. Don West: Either go to jail or get sued. Well, the stuff that you go see with your kids the superhero stuff. Shawn Vincent: Sure. But even a classic car chase, how there are at least 20 lawsuits, civil lawsuits that would come out of that, plus multiple criminal violations. Don West: Good point, I had a client one time charged with DUI. Left the roadway and hit a utility pole, bent the light pole. Got the criminal charges resolved favorably but she still got sued by the city to fix the light pole. Shawn Vincent: So not a criminal, but out of pocket. Don West: Had to pay for it, yes. Had to pay for it. Shawn Vincent: That's not unlike what self-defense shooters sometimes face. Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: Right. That's what our podcast is about. We look at real life self-defense shootings, things that we've seen in the news. Sometimes, things that we've had an opportunity to be involved with from a legal perspective. We dissect those to look at how did these facts, as they played out, as we know them, as they are reported sometimes, contribute to what Mike Darter likes to call the fight after the fight. You've had this first fight, this self-defense scenario. Now there's potentially a legal fight afterwards and that legal fight could be first criminal liability and potentially civil liability. Don West: No matter what, there's going to be a lot of cleanup of some sort. There's going to be the literal cleanup of the scene. We've had cases where the shooting took place inside a home, and several thousand dollars spent just to clean the place up from the event that took place. And there's the criminal process cleanup, the cost of hiring counsel and investigators and experts to sort all of that out. And then the cleanup, if there's a civil claim filed. Don West: The so-called aftermath can be measured not just in a legal liability. It can be measured in dollars and cents. It can be measured in emotional cost. I think if there's any one theme that runs throughout our discussions of this, is that the first fight is only the first one and there may be at least one big one and several others to address after a self-defense incident. Shawn Vincent: I remember one of the cases that we looked at deeply was the Markus Kaarma case, from Missoula Montana. And I follow up on these cases and the last bit of research I did on it, we know that what happened in that case is that Markus had been robbed previously. Someone had broken into his garage, not really broken in, he had his garage door open so they came into the garage and took some things of value. He had been monitoring it with a baby monitor thinking that some burglar might come back and try it again. Shawn Vincent: One night, after midnight, or right around midnight, he sees a shadow in his garage. He gets a shotgun and goes around up front of the garage, which was opened. Then he fires in and he kills a 16-year-old foreign exchange student who is most likely trying to steal beer from his refrigerator. Garage hopping. Shawn Vincent: We know that he was convicted after a trial and he's in jail for I believe the rest of his life. But also, that family, from all the way in Germany, came to the States and sued his wife, his common law wife, and the property and the estate. What hey got is undisclosed, but I assume a pretty big civil settlement that ended up resolving that side of things. So we hear about the criminal stuff a lot. We don't always hear about the civil stuff. Don West: From our member's standpoint, we are so aggressive so early in the case defending the members, with the risk of criminal prosecution, that we get investigators and experts involved early, get lawyers involved. We have a critical response team that is dispatched to the scene immediately, for a couple of reasons. Don West: One, to do the very best we can at that moment to make our members' chances the best they can be at successfully navigating the criminal investigation. But I think in hindsight, having gone through a few of these cases, we also realize that the more effort you put up front, the better the chances are of not only perhaps discouraging what might have been a close call on the criminal case, but also setting the stage not to be sued down the road. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Understanding and identifying the mitigating factors and bringing down the risk and the liability. Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: That's interesting. One of the reasons I brought up the Markus Kaarma case is that was one of three burglary/home invasion cases that we looked at. One reason I thought it was originally interesting was because we feel that we know about the castle doctrine, right. Our home and our sanctuary, and you've said it's a special place. There's nowhere in the world where we're more justified in defending ourselves than when we are in our home. Shawn Vincent: And then here you have a guy, Markus Kaarma, someone was in fact trespassing at least, in his garage, and because of some extraordinary circumstances, because of the fact that it was pretty well established that he was trying to lure someone back in to catch these burglars. Don West: Yeah, I think that we really talk about that case, not because we think Markus Kaarma got a raw deal or was in some way unjustly prosecuted, but to point out so many mistakes that he made, so many avoidable mistakes that he made that ... That changed what might have been on its face protecting one's castle from an intruder, to what the jury and everyone else ultimately concluded was simply murder. Shawn Vincent: Right. And that's what I want to explore today, is that fine line between self-defense and murder when it comes to home invasions or burglaries that you catch in the act. Because we'll talk about a case from Cincinnati, Ohio, where we know we have this mother of five, she lives in a home that she owns with the five children, her estranged ex, she has a restraining order against him. She herself has a concealed carry permit, even though she wouldn't necessarily need that in her home. Shawn Vincent: He comes over, is causing a ruckus. He wants to get in the house. He eventually rips the air conditioning unit out of a window. Don West: It's a window unit- Shawn Vincent: A window unit. Don West: That's mounted and the window is closed on top of it. So if you pull the air conditioner out, you have a big hole you can crawl through? Shawn Vincent: Once he pulled that air conditioning out, he had essentially gained entry to the home, and that's when it looks like she shot him multiple times. He ended up getting taken to the hospital, survived those injuries and her children are safe. The police looked at it for not very long at all. And even the district attorney for Cincinnati, a guy named Joe Deters, he said afterwards that, "Thank goodness she had a concealed carry permit and was able to defend herself and her five children. It's hard to imagine what might have happened to her or her children if she had not been able to protect herself and her family." Shawn Vincent: This is one of those scenarios where just like Joe Dieter says, the prosecutor, thank God she was able to protect herself and her children. And it seems like here she pretty much did everything right. She certainly, she didn't need to have a concealed carry to have a gun at her home. Don West: Let's break that down, let's take a look at that. Don West: That's the prosecutor not endorsing what happened because a life was nearly lost, but at the same time acknowledging that she acted lawfully and that as a result she was not going to be prosecuted. So, if we break that down, we know a few things just by those limited facts that are available on this. One, that she had attempted to use the legal process, the legal system to get some safety from this guy. A protective order is going to be issued upon application, claiming fear, threats, indicating prior incidents of violence likely. Shawn Vincent: You have to go before a judge and make a case for it. Don West: Yeah, there's typically a temporary order issued upon the application of one of the parties, and then that's served on the other party. and there's an opportunity for the parties to go to court, explain their situation to the judge, and then the judge makes a decision whether the protective order should be issued. And apparently based upon the information available, the judge said "Yes," and that order is going to require the person to stay away. Shawn Vincent: He's legally required to stay away. And she's established, she's afraid of this guy. Whatever it was that convinced the judge to give the order. Don West: Sure. Yeah. I think that that is the threshold that she did before she resorted to self-help the first time there was a problem, she took the steps necessary to use the judicial system and it didn't work. That's unfortunate. Sometimes it doesn't work and there's more violence and somebody dies. In this case, fortunately, as the prosecutor suggested, she was prepared and capable to defend herself as it turned out to be necessary. Shawn Vincent: And her children. Don West: So what we also know is that she herself is a law abiding citizen, because she wouldn't have a carry permit if she had a significant criminal history. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: For whatever that's worth, that she lawfully possessed the weapon, that she took the steps to be able to lawfully carry it outside the home. I think all suggests that this is a responsible person who's trying to follow the law, dealing with someone who clearly isn't. We don't know what the relationship was like, but we know it had to have been volatile and we knew that he was ordered to stay away because of the protective order in place and that didn't work, and he went to the house. Obviously would not be deterred to gain entry if he went so as to pull the AC unit out of the window and then go through. Don West: We also know it was her house, we also know that protective order made him a trespasser, if not worse, just by being on the property. So when the prosecutor looks at the equities in this case, he doesn't have to take her word for much of anything frankly. She's got the protective order in place. Shawn Vincent: It's her home. Don West: The air conditioner is on the ground, and he's incapacitated, having been shot. Now, no question that she had good reason to believe that he intended her harm. And I suspect with all of those circumstances and the factors at play, the law favored that and may very well under Ohio law, presumed that her fear of serious bodily harm or death was justified. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. One thing I want to point out here too is, unlike Markus Kaarma, she doesn't run outside the house to shoot this guy. She doesn't try to engage him until he's gained access to the house. Don West: She doesn't leave the door open and dare him to come in. Shawn Vincent: Right. She doesn't go outside to meet the threat. She waits there. It seems to me, and this isn't explicit in the article that we've found about this, the reporting about this, but it seems to me that he was out there for a while, probably yelling before he got to the point where he was trying to rip the air conditioner out. I'm sure he was banging on the door or pounding on some windows at some point. Don West: Sure, she didn't shoot him through the wall as he was trying to remove the air conditioner or through the window. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. It doesn't say here, but I suspect she's the type of person who would have called the police while he's out there raging in her yard. And it was only when he had gone through the extraordinary circumstance of actually breaking into the house, and now had entry that she fired, and eliminated the threat. Don West: And of course she would have known who it was. This wasn't a stranger to her. She couldn't write it off as a mistake, or that it was someone lost. She knew by virtue of what he did and how he was doing it in the face of the protective order and their history, judicial and otherwise, that- Shawn Vincent: Sure, so you bring up whether she knew who it was, she did obviously. That has echoes of the Ted Wafer case. We reference that a lot when we have these discussions. Because that one was a real heartbreaking case. That's Ted Wafer up in Dearborn, Michigan outside of Detroit. It's very early in the morning, around four o'clock in the morning. He lives alone. He's in a rough neighborhood now and there's violent banging on the door, on the front door, moves to the side door, comes back around the, the floorboards are shaking, the pounding's so loud he gets his shotgun, goes to the front door during a lull and the knocking opens it up and he's surprised by a figure there. Shawn Vincent: He doesn't know that it's a 19 year old girl named Renisha McBride. She tries to push through the screen. It seems like from the facts a shot is fired from a shotgun, it blows her head off. He claimed later that it was an accidental shot. I think you and I both agree that it was probably a twitch. He was scared, he was frightened, he was startled and he pulled the trigger and he didn't mean to shoot her, but it seemed like she was trying to break in. That was the case they made at trial. Don West: And that may have been exactly what actually happened. That makes life really complicated though when you then claim self-defense, which by definition is an intentional act. Shawn Vincent: Right, it's an affirmative defense, you meant to do it. Don West: A justified intentional act. Shawn Vincent: You can't accidentally shoot somebody in self-defense was what we've said before. And so the difference there, when you've got someone attempting to intrude your home, what you know about them becomes very important. If it's somebody that you've got a negative history with, that you suspect will do you harm, like this woman's ex-husband, who she had a restraining order against, you're in a more justified position. Shawn Vincent: If it's somebody, if it happens to be the pest control guy or someone who -- the mailman, someone who has a reason that you found suspicious for some extraordinary circumstance, you're in a much worse position. And then if you don't know who it is, that you don't know, there is no ... That has an effect on the reasonableness of your fear. Don West: Of course. Shawn Vincent: Is that true? Don West: Sure. One comment I wanted to make it in these facts, like we've always talked about if you just tweak one little aspect of it, you can take a legitimate self-defense shooting and turn it very quickly into a criminal act, perhaps murder. Can you imagine how emotional this whole thing must have been between these two people? Shawn Vincent: We're talking the woman and her estranged husband? Don West: Yeah. That he is willing to do all of that in the face of the court order, so he's not to be deterred. Apparently nothing is going to stop him until eventually some bullets did. And her, they've got this relationship. It's in the worst possible shape it could be in because she had to get a protective order. My guess is that their lives together and particularly hers have been a living hell for a long time. Don West: She finally feels she's got the judicial process in place and she's safe and he winds up coming over, yanking the air conditioner out and going inside to face her with a gun. Can you imagine how much self-restraint and emotional control she must have had? Because we know he didn't die on the scene. Shawn Vincent: To actually stop shooting once she had taken him down? Don West: To actually stop shooting and not say to herself, if not out loud, you will never do this to me again and fire that last, that one final round. Shawn Vincent: She didn't come around and shoot him in the head while he was on the ground and finish him off. Don West: And we've seen those cases. We've seen those cases where all of a sudden self-defense becomes a murder. No prosecutor is going to defend that. The prosecutor would not let her off the hook for that if that's in fact what the facts turned out to be. You need to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. But once the threat is neutralized and you are no longer facing that threat, you can't put one more round in for good measure. Shawn Vincent: Well, and we call that every shot counts. Every shot fired will be judged on its own. And that first shot can be self-defense, the second shot could be self-defense. That last shot could be and sometimes is murder. Don West: Other people have said every bullet comes with a lawyer. Shawn Vincent: I also remember the Gyrell Lee case we talked about, and that's a guy who watched his cousin get shot in the stomach right in front of him, and then he had a gun- Don West: And the gun turned on him. Shawn Vincent: Then turned on him, and then he fired on the shooter, killed the shooter. He made a mistake of running away. But one of the things that we know really affected his trial, because the jury asked for the evidence of this was a suggestion that that last bullet was fired through his body that was laying on the ground and struck the pavement underneath him. Don West: Yeah, they made a big deal about the forensic evidence. There was a divot in the pavement that the prosecutor wanted the jury to interpret that evidence as if it was the, what's the French term coup de grace. Shawn Vincent: Is that it? Don West: I think that's it, the one final shot for good measure and that ... Now in the Lee case, if I'm not mistaken, he was convicted. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Don West: And then wound up with a successful appeal but had to face the whole thing over again. Shawn Vincent: Right. Yeah, but I don't think he's faced it over again yet. I'm not sure the status of that case, but just proof of how those things can drag on for years and years. Don West: Regardless of what the final outcome is, he spent the past several years in prison trying to get it sorted out. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Let's talk about another home invasion case. I think it's fair to call this a home invasion case. The difference between burglary and home invasion, Mr. Lawyer, counselor is what? Don West: A lot of people confuse burglary with robbery. It's pretty hard to rob a house because a robbery contemplates a face to face encounter, accompanied by violence or threat of violence. So you can't legally rob an occupied house. Shawn Vincent: Okay. Don West: You burglarize a house. A burglary could turn into a robbery- Shawn Vincent: If someone happens to be home. Don West: Yes. And those are more often characterized as burglary, then with an assault. And that's a much more serious offense than just illegal breaking and entering. A home invasion is typically considered as forcible breaking knowing there are people inside with the intent of confronting them and robbing them, or terrorizing them, doing something, knowing that you're going to be face to face with another human being. Shawn Vincent: Sure. So we talked about the Zack Peters case out of Oklahoma, and there we have three people dressed all in black, break in through the back door. They'd actually burglarized the guest house of this property in the recent past, and here they are at noon on a weekday, they break in through some glass, gain access to the house and then are surprised to find Zach Peters is there, armed with an AR 15. That was a burglary turned into something else. Don West: Right. That would not be viewed as a home invasion robbery to start with. I tell you what, what commonly happens out there, and that's often common as home invasion robberies is when there is design to go inside and rob the people valuables or jewelery. But you see that kind of stuff all the time when people go into drug houses. Often other gangs will go into drug houses and rob the individuals there of their drugs. The goal is to go in and control and confront and take whatever they have of value, may very well be targeting their stash of drugs. Shawn Vincent: Okay. That's interesting. So we're looking at this case out of Wichita where the homeowner there, he's a young guy, 18 years old, and two people that he knows, they're both 20 years old, come over in the middle of the afternoon, 2:45 PM on a Saturday. And according to police, they're trying to recover some property that's in dispute, that the 18 year old, the homeowner has. They've got a bad history, these three. These two guys are out there trying to get in the house. Don West: The 18 year old is the homeowner or occupant. The other guys that he knows want something that they believe he has in his house, they claim is theirs. As I understand what you're saying and what I saw in the article is, they went there to recover some property of some sort. Shawn Vincent: That's right. Don West: It's never really been identified or described other than that particular property wasn't stolen unless they thought it was stolen from them perhaps. Shawn Vincent: Sure. I think of this as the OJ Simpson scenario where he's going, he wants his trophy back. I don't know what it was that they were after. Don West: That's a robbery. It wasn't like he broke into the place or the hotel room to steal the Heisman trophy back, confronted people, by force and threat, and that's what made him into a robber. That was, what'd he get? 15 years? Something for that? Shawn Vincent: Yeah. I can't remember exactly, but ... Well, he's on Twitter now, so he's out, OJ. Don West: Another day, another conversation. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Here, you got two guys that you know that you have something they want and now they're outside your door at 2:45 PM on a Saturday, trying to force their way in. Here's what the homeowner does. He fires through the door and kills them both, one of them shot in the back. Now from everything we've read in this report, it looks like he was not charged for these homicides. He was later charged because he had stolen property in his house. It wasn't the property that these guys were there after, so he's got his own legal problems. Well, one of them isn't apparently murder. Shawn Vincent: And I bring this one up because I think we take a pretty conservative look at a lot of these cases and our mantra is, you never shoot until you absolutely have to. And usually that's when there is imminent threat of great bodily injury or death. And I think we would almost never recommend shooting people through a closed locked door. I feel like that's a recipe for some real trouble afterwards. Don West: Yeah, I agree. That can be extremely hard to justify, although under certain circumstances, either legal or close enough, since you're protecting your home that you wind up not being prosecuted. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: And that's typically a call that you don't want to make unless you're absolutely forced to and you can't make that decision whether you in fact are justified and feel the absolute need to do that until you're right there in the middle of it and can assess your own situation. What you think the odds are against you, and in this case he knew who these guys were. I assume he knew what they are capable of. He probably felt he knew what they intended, if they were able to get inside, and may very reasonably have felt that he couldn't have protected himself adequately if they got in -- that he would have been overwhelmed. Shawn Vincent: So it's two against one. Maybe he believes that they're armed, maybe they got shotguns, I don't know. But once that door's down, he's at the disadvantage is the idea. Don West: And we have some other things going and that is not only did he know them, but that it seemed pretty clear that law enforcement accepted the explanation that they intended to break their way in. They were trying to force their way in as opposed to other cases we've talked about where some crazed person or drunk person or lost person isn't necessarily trying to commit a home invasion robbery, but rather get some attention, maybe even in their mind get some help, but they raise a hell of a ruckus outside banging on the door, the Renisha McBride case. Shawn Vincent: She was probably looking for help and her actions were interpreted as an attempt to break in, but they were actually an attempt to get help. She was confused and disoriented Don West: Whereas these guys apparently we're not going to stop until they got in and there were two of them. And yeah whether there could have been some ... Could have exercised better judgment or different judgment hindsight may tell, but at this point any way from the initial investigation, apparently law enforcement decided it was justified and it was his house, let's not forget that. Like you said before, that is your sanctuary. It's a sacred place. It's highly protected. And if the law is ever going to favor your use of force. . . Shawn Vincent: Give you the benefit of any doubt, right? Don West: Yeah. You remember our other conversations that we've had where I use this phrase that struck me, it's subjective forgiveability. Shawn Vincent: Yeah, right. Don West: The idea that even if you don't do it 100% right, unless it's clear you're doing it wrong, or you aren't justified, then as the homeowner who is being subjected to criminals breaking in or some other kind of threat, then you're going to be given the benefit of the doubt in your house. Shawn Vincent: Right. So our mother of five, with all of these things that we know about her, the protective order that she's a law abiding citizen, she owns a house. She's got the children, she has a concealed carry permit. She waited for the air conditioner to be ripped out before she fired. All those things, anywhere where we might've had a subjective look at whether she was right or wrong, we're forgiving her, because she's got everything lined up on her side. Don West: Right. Shawn Vincent: This guy in Wichita, he doesn't have five kids in there and he doesn't have a restraining order against these two guys, but apparently there was enough of a documented history between them that it seems like, he seems reasonable to fear them. And then we get into this other thing I wanted to talk to you about is, a lot of self-defense statutes and they're a little bit different in every state, but a lot of self-defense statutes are, you're allowed to use deadly force when there's an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death to you, right? Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: And sometimes. . . Don West: That's the law in all 50 States. Some States still require a duty to retreat, so you can't use that force unless you've exhausted a way to avoid using it safely. And stand your ground states, you don't have to retreat first, but nowhere can you respond with deadly force other than a threat to yourself of deadly force, except in very rare circumstances, and that happens to be in the house. Shawn Vincent: Right, in order to prevent a forcible felony is often what the statute reads. And some of them, I've read like in Colorado for example, I remember reading that that includes specifically your house. They'll address specifically that someone breaking into your home, there's this presumption that. . . Don West: Yeah, you bring up a good point, we should try to make that a little more clear. Andrew Branca, that we think the world of who wrote the book, The Law of Self-Defense and blogs, and offers a lot of content for gun owners who want to know the law of the jurisdiction, where they live and where the boundaries are. So we encourage people to take advantage of his vast knowledge to improve their own. He calls the home the highly defensible property. So, that's where you're going ... That's the most defendable place you can be on earth is your house. Don West: Now, what you were talking about was another aspect of self-defense that doesn't necessarily require the actual threat to you, before you can use, in this instance, deadly force, and that is a lot of places including Florida in particular, allow for the use of deadly force to prevent the commission of an aggravated felony. And there's a list of those in most statutes. What is an aggravated felony, robbery, murder, rape, kidnapping, those kinds of things. Don West: And you can use force to prevent someone from committing an aggravated felony in most places. And that doesn't necessarily require the specific threat, life-threatening event to you, but you do have to be right, and you have to be able to perceive the circumstances correctly. And if so, you have the right to protect someone from being raped or robbed or kidnapped. Shawn Vincent: Right. Or from breaking into your house. Don West: Yes. We talked about Florida a little bit. The Florida statute provides that not only can you use deadly force to defend against, a threat, a threat against your life, but in Florida, if someone is breaking into your house, forcibly entering your house, the element of reasonable fear is presumed just by virtue of those circumstances, it's your house, they're trying to force their way in, your use of deadly force is presumed to be reasonable. Shawn Vincent: You're allowed to assume that they're going to do you harm if they come in and you're there. They've broken into your house. Now here's where the conversation gets interesting, because we've got this great letter from a CCW Safe member, we're going to talk about it anonymously to protect the identity, but we can share the story. And the story is that this man lived on a small ranch with his wife and two children. Shawn Vincent: And it's just before midnight out here on this ranch, a rural, desolate area, and this guy comes up on his porch wearing nothing but blue jeans. He's a little bloodied, he's clearly been in a fight, he's either intoxicated or in some way otherwise out of his mind. And he started yelling that he wants to entry to the house. He's banging on the door over the course of 20 minutes. He tries to steal their ATV. He tries to use the swing bench on the porch as a ramrod to get into the house. He pulls up bushes and throws them at the windows. Shawn Vincent: All this time, the homeowner had a pistol and a flashlight, I think, out. That you can see through the windows this guy, he lets him know that if he comes in the house, he's going to shoot him. Meanwhile, his wife's on the phone with 911, in a locked room in the back of the house with the children. It's going to take 911 out here in his ranch 20 minutes to get out there, and during that time, he keeps his cool and there's one confrontation at a backdoor, which was a big pane glass in it where he was face to face with this guy. Shawn Vincent: And he wrote to let us know that he was remembering the Ted Wafer story that we wrote about. Don't open the door, don't go outside. This man decided that he was going to wait for this person to cross his threshold before we fired, that he would resolve to shoot him if he did, and he told him so. And as fate would have it, the police arrived in time, they take the guy down, nobody’s shot; nobody's killed. There's no legal inquiry, at least for the homeowner at this point, and there was the best possible resolution of a terrifying situation. Shawn Vincent: And I would suggest that, especially at a point where maybe this guy is using a swing bench to try to ram down his front door. He may have been justified like this guy in Wichita who someone was trying to forcibly enter his house. I suspect the right police department and the right prosecutors would look at that and say, you're all right here. But you're in gray area or you're in a grayer area than if you are to wait for that threshold -- for the window to be broken, for the air conditioning unit to be ripped out. Don West: One of the things that Andrew Branca talks about is managing your risk and of course with training and experience and such, you manage your risk by being better prepared to defend yourself if and when necessary. But you also can manage your risk in the legal context. And what you're saying may in fact have been true under those circumstances. He may very well have been legally justified to fire and shoot this guy under some of the circumstances you've described. But at a very minimum, we know that his legal risk skyrocketed at that point. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: And it went from zero to something unnecessarily, and the guy had enough. He thought it through. He realized that he wasn't actually in danger. His family wasn't actually in danger at that moment. And if his level of physical risk increased, he was prepared. But he wasn't going to do anything to make himself more vulnerable, or frankly, to increase his legal risk. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. In this case, this is a guy who seems unarmed, just crazy and he had established a threshold that he was comfortable with. You talked one time about, and maybe this is a Andrew Branca thing, about buying yourself time in these critical decisions, right? Don West: That's important to me, and I don't claim to be any kind of expert whatsoever on the tactics side of it. It just makes sense that a lot of what goes on is trying to figure out what's going on. What does this person intend? How much of a comfort zone do I have before I have to take decisive action? And the more you do to give yourself the opportunity to assess it, I think the better decision you're going to make. Don West: And you may not have any time whatsoever and you have to react, but if you can get away a little bit and give yourself another chance to see what's going on, that's more helpful than not. And if you can get completely away then ... Shawn Vincent: Sure. Well, and then Zach Peters, after he shot those guys, he didn't know if he had killed them or ... He retreated his room locked the door and called the police. So even though he knew he had people still in the house, he knew he was home alone and he went to a safer place in the house. This guy on the ranch we talked about sent his family to a safer place in the house. I just have to think, when I look at these cases, I see thresholds all along the way. Shawn Vincent: And if somebody trips in alarm and still continues to try to get in, they've crossed that threshold. Our mother of five waited for a threshold to be opened before she shot. Ted Wafer made the mistake of opening that threshold himself, forcing the conflict. And so I guess we might have 10 thresholds and somewhere on the first one, we might be unjustified or have what you talked about this high legal risk, but the more thresholds that get crossed, more likely you have more time to consider your options. Shawn Vincent: Your legal risk depending on the circumstances might go down and if you're forced at last after having allowed those thresholds, recognize and allowed it, I mean the, there's ... We talked about reasonableness in all of these shootings that the reasonableness becomes greater and greater I think as known thresholds are crossed. Don West: That's an excellent point because that's what the case will hinge on eventually. No matter what happens, the prosecutor and then ultimately the jury will have to decide did you act reasonably under the circumstances? Another point that Andrew Branca makes, which I think is so important for people to know and that is, when you're talking about a stand your ground state, meaning that there is no legal duty to retreat, just as a brief refresher, if there's a legal duty to retreat, that means you have to try to get away if you can do so safely before you use deadly force- Shawn Vincent: Before you're justified of it. Don West: While facing a threat of serious bodily harm or death. Stand your ground basically means is you don't have to retreat, but you can if otherwise justified, you can meet force with force. But Andrew points out brilliantly that depending on where you are, there are certain stand your ground states that he calls hard stand your ground states, and other states that he calls soft stand your ground States. Both stand your ground, but the difference being in a hard stand your ground state, the opportunity to retreat or the failure to retreat isn't admissible on the question of whether you acted justifiably. Shawn Vincent: The prosecutor can't suggest that because you didn't retreat in this hard stand your ground state, that that somehow reflects on your judgment or your fear. Don West: Yes. And that your conduct was unreasonable. In the soft states though, even though you had the legal right to stand your ground, the prosecutor may very well get away with arguing that sure he didn't legally have to get away, but he had these clear opportunities to avoid this and to get safe. And no reasonable person, no one who really was trying to defend themselves would not have taken advantage of that. So this was a guy looking for a fight. This was a guy trying to be aggressive. This was a guy who, who just missed any opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, when you look at the totality of the circumstances and what this person did, it's unreasonable. Shawn Vincent: And we know in the Gyrell Lee case, that's the guy whose cousin was shot and he shot back, the prosecutor in that case made that argument in court, that a reasonable person would've gotten out of there. Don West: Yeah, so the jury could very well find all of the other elements of self-defense to be satisfied except the reasonableness one. Shawn Vincent: Right. So in the stand your ground state, the duty to retreat is removed, but that's just for that first threshold for whether you're justified or not. I think that if you can try to retreat safely, then you become more reasonable. Don West: Yeah, I don't know any advisor or instructor for that matter, any trainer that ever says don't retreat if you can, don't avoid the confrontation if you can, because you can't control the outcome. All of a sudden your risk is then gone up and the risk of killing somebody, the risk of being killed, the risk of going to prison for the rest of your life is just infinitely greater than if you were able to get away. Shawn Vincent: Well, I think about this rancher and what he was able to do, take everything else off the table. He was able to turn this into, for his kids: “I remember that night, that crazy guy was banging on our door,” kept it from being, “Remember that night that daddy killed somebody on our porch,” justifiable or not. The trauma on his family is so different because he had that judgment, and that he established those thresholds. I think that's the lesson, whenever we had these conversations, we're looking for the lessons for the concealed carrier, to be ... Everyone who has got a concealed carrier permit is there, because they are interested in their own, they're taking responsibility for their own protection. Don West: Yes. The protection of themselves, the protection of their loved ones, of their home. Shawn Vincent: And a lot of people who carry, I believe responsible people, will have gone through scenarios. They're trained for scenarios often of where this might happen so that they can survive it, their family will survive it. And then what we talk about are what happens after that. And we talked about Bob O'Connor all the time and his “warrior mindset.” His mindset and his judgment where if, if beyond just thinking about the tactical scenarios where you might need to use your weapon, thinking about the ... We're talking about the legal scenarios here and when you can safely, if you have the judgment and the mindset, and can safely buy yourself that time and recognize the thresholds of where the threat is and when it becomes critical. Shawn Vincent: And, we're talking about split second decisions here, but recognizing those thresholds allows you more choices than just that one choice, whether to pull the trigger or not. And that can be the difference between killing somebody or not, being killed or not. Don West: Yeah, we know statistically it's highly statistically unlikely, but we also know what happens and it happens fairly frequently. But as you take that responsibility, I think the better you can train your brain to react appropriately under that high stress moment of having to make those decisions. You can also train your brain to know the boundaries better. That helps define your own conduct, and all of that together helps you avoid what could turn out to be a lethal confrontation. Shawn Vincent: We started this conversation now talking about watching movies like Spider-Man and chalking it up all the felonies and misdemeanors and civil liability that happens. But I think when we talked about that mindset, if you're a concealed carrier, you end up when you choose to carry, walking around needing to contemplate what is my liability in these situations? What's my responsibility as a carrier? What's the risk I have? Shawn Vincent: And this, call it tactical awareness, if you will, on adding the legal aspect of it, it's understanding, I'm in a parking lot at night now, at the convenience store at 2:00 AM, this is a place where people get shot. This is where things happen. I'm at risk and I'm armed and right now my liability is high. I'm at home, I've got a security system, I have lights in my yard, I'm where I'm meant to be, my liability and my risk is low. I think these are things that we need to think about all the time when we choose to carry- Don West: Yeah, and I think the experts would say, if you're in a high risk situation by choice, don't do it. Go someplace else. If you have to be, then of course everything else has to kick in, but you also keep yourself safe by understanding what a high risk situation is and taking steps simply to avoid making yourself vulnerable or increasing the odds that there's going to be some problem. What's that App that Mike has, Mike Darter, he's got an App on his phone. It's, shoot, I wish I knew the name of it, crime something. Shawn Vincent: Crime maps, that shows how at risk you are? Don West: Yeah. It's find you and basically tell you what kind of spots you're at, what the crime rates are. Is it relatively safe or relatively dangerous? Shawn Vincent: That's interesting. I like to take very long walks and sometimes it's behind the building or someplace on a route to go somewhere. And other places I'm more comfortable than others. And there's some places where I've mapped out a long walk in advance and like, you know what, I don't think right there, I'd be comfortable unless I had a gun with me. And then I stop and think, well, if I'm not comfortable there without a gun, and I don't have to go there, then I just don't need to go there. Don West: Yeah. Shawn Vincent: And that's the mindset. Don West: That's what we're talking about, isn't it?. Thinking it through. Making some decisions with the goal of being safe and reducing your risk. Don't be a victim. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Don't be a victim, and sometimes walking away or avoiding the aggressor is how you avoid being the victim of the bigger system, the victim with a legal system. Don West: There you go. Shawn Vincent: Or of your own temper or of a mistaken identity. All those things. Don West: So many things that could go wrong. Shawn Vincent: Well there we did it, it's another episode in the can, and a real pleasure to talk with you. Don West: Thanks as always, look forward to the next time and be good, be safe. Shawn Vincent: Be good, be safe. Take care.

It is easy to big up what you do, to say the tracks you’ve chosen are the best, but really, really, we have some stunning new releases on tonight’s show. There are 4 or 5 albums that will be vying for a place in the Top Ten albums of 2017 we played tonight. The older stuff is not too shabby either!! So turn the lights down low and listen to #130…   Tracklisting: Evan Parker Electro-Acoustic Ensemble – Hasselt 3 – Hasselt (Psi) – Buy Gusev KP, Martin Hoogeboom, Paul Mimlitsch – III – Trapped! (Thirsty Leaves) – Buy Irreversible Entanglements – Enough – Irreversible Entanglements (International Anthem) – Buy Lone Arrivals – Placed In Ember – Nomad Roads (Tiny Wytch) – Buy Tyshawn Sorey – Cascade in Slow Motion – Verisimilitude (Pi) – Buy Viv Corringham & Lawrence Casserley – NE Caicias – Anemoi (FMR) – Buy Moondog – Oboe Round – Moondog (Trunk) – Buy Daniel Carter, Patrick Holmes, Matthew Putman, Hilliard Greene, Federico Ughi – Words Glow – Telepathic Alliances (577) – Buy Donald Sturge Anthony McKenzie II – Renisha McBride (featuring Arnold Lee) – Silenced (577) – Buy Federico Ughi – Sogno Sempre D’Estate (edit) – Heart Talk (577) – Buy

The extra white Christy is challenged by Black Lives Matter and other four word phrases Neighbor Lives Mattera sermon by Rev. J. Christy RamseyClick the title above for a mp3 recording Audio from Truckee Lutheran Presbyterian Church on August 2016, edited from a flawless transcription made by edigitaltranscriptions all errors are mine. Luke 10:25-37 Sermons also avaliable free on iTunes Who is my neighbor? Four words. Four words. Who is my neighbor? But I think you got a little hint of what was really going on when you heard the introduction to the question:, desiring to justify himself, you got a little hint that there might be a hidden word in there. What do you think that hidden word is? The lawyer’s trying to justify himself. I think there might be a hidden word in there: NOT, who’s NOT my neighbor? I think he’s looking not to expand the list but to cut the list down. What’s the absolute minimum neighborness I need to get into heaven, Jesus? I think there’s a little hidden word in there to justify himself. Who is my neighbor? Psst…I mean…who’s not my neighbor? I mean, surely there’s a lot of not-neighbors. There’s a lot of far away people. You could get the list edited down to just a few, right? I mean, if he thought the neighbor list was huge, he could have asked for the the few that didn’t make the list…that would be the shorter list. But he’s hoping the neighbor list has fewer names. What is a neighbor, anyway? The word is absolutely unambiguous. It is very, very old word for “nearby”. It’s a location kind of thing, how close you are to somewhere. And it goes back to ancient Greek about the neighborliness is location. Somebody nearby. Well, that’s been changing over the centuries a little bit. You’ve got Jesus at stake here. But more recently, in the classic Lend-Lease Act, way back before World War II, FDR talked about neighborliness, that Great Britain was our neighbor. A neighbor who had a house fire and needed to borrow our garden hose. By garden hose he meant aircraft carriers and destroyers and armaments and war things. But still, he appealed to the country of understanding Great Britain as our neighbor that needed some help, needed us to lend them something as a neighbor would do, and then we’ll get it back later. Neighborness is some kind of a cultural affinity, perhaps because we speak the same language we’re neighbors. Maybe we’re neighbors because of other things like religion or because we have the same values, or maybe we’re neighbors because of our nation that we live in. Maybe that is kind of the nearness, not just location, but nearness of heart, nearness of values, nearness of outlook, nearness of history, nearness of heritage, nearness of ideology, nearness of nationalism, that kind of near thing. Maybe. There’s a principle of law that actually is the Neighbour Principle. It’s actually in the English common law has been brought over here. Good old Lord Atkin. There was a huge big case, Donoghue v Stevenson, I think it is, but Lord Atkins decided in 1932 the Neighbour Principle Lord Atkin sort of summed it up his idea of a neighborliness. He made his decision based on a new idea of what it meant to be a neighbor– this was not a concept in law before. He came up with the neighbor principle in law that said: that you are required, the person, the actor or non-actor, is required to consider reasonably other people who might be affected by their action or by their inaction in any particular matter. See that switch there, kind of change of perspective of what makes a neighbor. Instead of the qualifications of the other, instead of the qualifications of the other, let me see, let me go through my list and see if you’re my neighbor. Are you this? Are you that? Are you this? Are you that? Are you this close? Are you that close? Lord Atkin sort of changed it, turned it upside down and said, neighborliness is NOT about the other person at all, but about YOU. It’s on you, in your head, to think about other people, to go and to think about neighbor as somebody else. What is a neighbor in your head? You have to say how can I be a neighbor to someone else, NOT how they are a neighbor to me. It is flipped. How am I a neighbor to others? Now, it’s a good thing that we have this concept because that Samaritan, I don’t know if you know Samaritans. As for me…some of my best friends are Samaritans. Back in Jesus’ time, most good people were prejudiced against them. Samaritans were the worst. They were – I bet they were considered to be worse than the hated Romans. If you wanted to say who do you hate the most, eh, Samaritans would be number one, very much. Survey would say Samaritan! DING! right there at the top of the list. Samaritans were heretics. They were half-breeds. They were traitors. They were collaborators. They were filthy. They didn’t know how to worship God right. Take everything you could hate about a person or a group add it up and: Boom, Samaritans. In any shape or stretch of the imagination, they are not neighbor. If you were a Jew back in Jesus’s time, and especially if you’re a lawyer back in Jesus’s time, especially if you’re a good observant righteous Jewish lawyer back in Jesus’s time, Samaritan is not a neighbor in any way, shape, or form. But Jesus tells a story. And you know Jesus, he doesn’t just answer the the question, does he? He doesn’t answer the question who is my neighbor. You see what he asked at the end? He flipped it around, like Lord Atkin. He flipped it around. He didn’t say how who qualified in the story to be a neighbor to you. He said, “Who acted as a neighbor to the person that fell among robbers?” Whoa. The lawyer didn’t bargain for that. See, the lawyer wanted a short list. You know, just maybe the neighborhood, you know, just a few people. Jesus did make a short list! He took that list down to one, the lawyer. Not about other people, but about the lawyer himself. There’s only one person you’ve got to worry about being a neighbor or not, lawyer. It’s you. Are you a neighbor? That’s all you got – that’s it. You’re done. You’re done with the list of qualifications and understandings. All you’ve got to ask is, are you acting as neighbor? And you’re done. Four words. He just had to mess it up. Switched it around. Who was a neighbor to the one who fell among the thieves? Now, you’re going to get upset. Stick with me. What if we had a question to ask Jesus today, who would come up – what would they ask Jesus today? Would they ask the neighbor question? Maybe. I think who would ask those four word question today would be “Black Lives Matter”. Now, were you too upset to notice that was only three words? Right, I’m not going to ask for a show of hands. But just like that other question, there’s an extra word there. Word that we hear that’s not spoken. And the thing that makes “Black Lives Matter” so upsetting is that all of us do not hear that same unspoken word. That even makes it more upsetting. Some of us, some of us hear exclusion. We hear ONLY Black Lives Matter. And we get upset because of the unspoken word that excludes. But that word is not heard by others it is only in your head. Other folks hear a different unspoken word, a focus, Black Lives Matters TOO. Black Lives Matter ALSO. Talking about focus, but not exclusion. Whoa, what would Jesus do? I don’t know. And I’m not Jesus. Good thing. He’d only last three years in the ministry. He’s a failure by the world’s measure. But I was a firefighter for a couple of years. I think we had a motto, a slogan, a rallying cry. Something like “Preserving Life and Property,” I think was on our motto on our side of our trucks. But, you know, I think you could argue that we acted and we lived out, we trained and we moved, and we did everything in our power to live out the unpublished motto that Burning Houses Matter. Burning homes matter. That’s what we focused on, buddy boy. If there was a house burning, that got our attention. We got out of bed. We got up from the dinner table. We left our family, and we went a running to that burning house. I was in the Volunteer Fire Department. You had – four minutes to get to the station and get on a truck or you were walking to the fire. Those trucks were gone in four minutes. So the alarm went off, you better be running. You’d better be in your car. You’d better totally focus on getting there NOW because in four minutes everybody’s going to be gone, and you’re going to be walking to that fire. We dropped everything because burning homes matter. Now, Christy, don’t all homes matter? Don’t we all pay taxes? You burnist! Everybody’s home is just as valuable in their heart as a burning home!! Why do you hate other homes? Why do you pass them by? How come you don’t come up to their house with lights and sirens and dance around with ladders and fountains of water? Why do you do all that for just burning homes? Don’t you like the other houses you just speed on by? Do you hate them? No. It’s Focus. Not exclusion. FDR got it right, and the Samaritan got it right. Lord Atkin got it right. Who’s your neighbor? Who needs you? Who needs a neighbor? That’s is who youryour neighbor. Whoever needs you. That’s who it is. That’s who matters. Have you studied the great philosopher of our time, Louis C.K.? You can buy tickets to a comedy show and see him, but he’s really a philosopher. A lot of philosophers are comedians today, and I understand it pays better than a Ph.D. But he has something that I am just gave to my TechCampers at ComputerCorps two week TechCamp for young teens and I said this to the kids, because, you know, children, can get pretty competative between one another. Louis C.K. told his kids the only time you look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure they have enough. You don’t look in your neighbor’s bowl to see if they have more than you. The only time you look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure they have enough. And guess what. If they don’t, you give them some of yours. What a world that would be, if we didn’t think about how we measured up to other people, didn’t worry about how much we were getting what we needed, about what we were doing, but instead if we thought about how am I fulfilling what other people need from me, how am I being a neighbor, measuring ourselves instead of others. Now, if you want a graduate course in this understanding, I recommend Love Wins Ministry. Hugh Hollowell is great at very gently and nicely just pricking our big balloon ego right in the spot. And he’s a religious guy, and he knows how to do it. 2010, one of his blog entries was about a frequently asked question: should I give money to panhandlers? That is a big issue, I know, for Christians. And you can argue about it, say, “Oh, I always do.” “Oh, I never do.” And so Hugh talks about that. “You know, I understand, maybe you’re in a hurry. You’re late for an appointment. You don’t have time. And you had to go, you had to go. Maybe all you can do is that look at that other person, acknowledge their presence, and move on.” Hugh says that the thing to do in that situation is whatever the most relational thing you can do. Whatever it is, it’s the most relational that you can do. Because Hugh works with the homeless, and he says the opposite of homeless is community. And he works on homelessness by making relationships. Now, he says – he gives you an out. “If you’re busy, if you’ve got too much to do, if you don’t have time, if you’ve got an appointment, look at the other person, acknowledge their presence, and then later on pray for them.” And then Hugh, he goes, “And then pray for yourself. Pray for your lifestyle that has allowed you to get so busy that you don’t have time to show love and mercy to another human.” Did I warn you? Ouch. It’s not that other person that is needy. You’re needy, too. “But Hugh, should I give money to a panhandler? What if they use it wrong?” “Well, if you can’t give money, if you can’t give any gift without giving it as a gift, without severing the ties to it and letting that person do what [indiscernible], if you can’t give money without feeling that way, then don’t give money. You can buy a bunch of waters and put them in a cooler in your back and hand them out. You know, 24 waters and hand them out to the [indiscernible]. You can buy a gross of socks, couple dozen socks and hand them out to the homeless people. You can do that if you don’t want to give money. But if you don’t want to give money” – here it comes. Oh, Hugh. “If you don’t want to give money because of how they would treat it, consider for yourself why you’re more concerned about your relationship with money than your relationship with another human.” [Whistles] Who is my neighbor? Not about what they’re doing, how they are, what checklists they get on. But am I being a neighbor? Gee, Christy, all you had to do was preach, and you come and bring the whole congregation down. Ugh. Well, then, let’s tell a Mister Rogers story, huh? Yeah, go out with a Mister Rogers story. Mister Rogers, a Presbyterian pastor, member of the Presbytery of Pittsburgh, I had the privilege of being the pastor of the Latrobe Presbyterian Church where his family worshiped, where he grew up in Latrobe. Great, great, great family. Rich, oh, my gosh. So much money. Oh, and thank you Jesus, they loved to help out Latrobe Presbyterian Church, even though he moved to Pittsburgh decades before I arrived for a brief ministry. He has passed away. There are stories going around. Some of them are true, a couple are not. He’s never shot anybody, never was in the military – got to watch those things internet memes. But if Fred Rogers met you he always knew your kid’s name. He always asked when you saw him. I never met him. But people would talk about him around me. And they would just get misty-eyed. They’d talk about even when he was a kid, and the chauffeur was giving him a ride to school every day, he’d pick up his friends and have them go along with them in the limo. He was quite the man. One of the stories about Mister Rogers was that they sent a limo for him, you know, a really nice limo. Mister Rogers wouldn’t ride in the back, sat upfront with the driver. And they went to an executive house for a meeting, and he found out the driver was supposed to stay outside with the car while they were in the house, having their meeting. And he made them bring the limo driver in with them. And on the way home he was sitting in the front seat. Probably a long day for Mister Rogers. And they were talking. And the limo driver says, “Oh, yeah, I live right over there.” And he says, “You do? You do?” And the driver continues, “Yeah, my kids are big fans.” “They are? Oh, could we go visit? It be all right if I went and visit with them?” Well, yeah. And so the limo driver took Mister Rogers to his own home. And they sat, and he met the family, and he played the piano, and they sang neighborhood songs, and THEN he went back to his hotel. That song, you know, in “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood,” he says, “Since we’re all here anyway, won’t you be a neighbor?” Since we’re here anyway, won’t you be a neighbor. There’s only – it’s a really simple answer, turns out, to who is my neighbor. If you look at it the way Mister Rogers did, Lord Atkins did, if you look at it the way even Hugh Hollowell did, it’s a really simple thing because you only have to answer for one person. And Louis C.K. would remind you that, too. Who is my neighbor? And you twist that around, saying who am I a neighbor to, and work on your own neighborness, instead of how other people should be neighbors. What a wonderful world that would be. Amen. These are the 25 names that are included in the above image: Trayvon Martin, Philando Castile, Eric Garner, Jordan Davis, Oscar Grant, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Alton Sterling, Emmett Till, Amadou Diallo, Kimani Gray, Jonathan Ferrell, Renisha McBride, Cynthia Hurd, Susie Jackson, Ethel Lee Lance, Myra Thompson, Depayne Middleton-Doctor, Daniel Simmons, Clementa Pinckney, Sharona Coleman-Singleton, Tywanza Sanders, Laquan McDonald, Cameron Tillman and Tanisha Anderson. Post differs from the recording with some repeats and speaking errors edited out. Transcription done by edigitaltranscription.com Recommended for fast, accurate, and patient transcriptions. Christy Ramsey. Some rights reserved. This work is licensed under aCreative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.

The Context of White Supremacy welcomes an attempted black mother and father to consider the rigors of raising black children. Our guests are willing to share their experiences on how their parenting has evolved as they increased their understanding of what Racism is and how it works. We're excited to review what problems they've encountered since infusing counter-racist logic into their child-rearing practicies. Being truthful, discussing Racism with your child is not always an easy - or enjoyable - task; we'll hear what resistance their child has offered. It seems television - Empire specifically - has had a alarmingly destructive impact on their offspring. As the educational system is designed to nourish White Power, we'll ask what obstacles their child's school has presented. We'll ask if the high profile cases involving black children - Trayvon Martin, Renisha McBride, Jordan Davis - have made it easier to explain the war being waged against black people. #AnswersForMiriamCarey INVEST in The COWS - http://paypal.me/GusTRenegade CALL IN NUMBER: 641.715.3640 CODE 564943# The C.O.W.S. archives: http://tiny.cc/76f6p

In the wake of the killing of Freddie Gray and the subsequent uprising, many media outlets focused on tired stereotypes about black criminality rather than the years of oppression that sparked the protests. Rashad Robinson, Executive Director of ColorOfChange, and Stacey Patton, reporter for The Chronicle of Higher Education, will talk about how dehumanizing media coverage can reinforce bias and negatively impact black communities.Since 2005, ColorOfChange, the nation's largest online civil rights organization, has been a leading force in holding government and corporations accountable to black people and advancing visionary solutions for building a just society. From fighting for justice for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Renisha McBride and Trayvon Martin to battling attempts to suppress the black vote and helping shape the successful strategy in the fight to protect a free and open Internet, ColorOfChange has been at the forefront of the most critical civil rights issues of this century.Before joining The Chronicle, Stacey Patton was a senior editor and writer for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. She has also reported for the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun.Talking About Race is presented in partnership with Open Society Institute-Baltimore.Recorded On: Tuesday, September 29, 2015

In the wake of the killing of Freddie Gray and the subsequent uprising, many media outlets focused on tired stereotypes about black criminality rather than the years of oppression that sparked the protests. Rashad Robinson, Executive Director of ColorOfChange, and Stacey Patton, reporter for The Chronicle of Higher Education, will talk about how dehumanizing media coverage can reinforce bias and negatively impact black communities.Since 2005, ColorOfChange, the nation's largest online civil rights organization, has been a leading force in holding government and corporations accountable to black people and advancing visionary solutions for building a just society. From fighting for justice for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Renisha McBride and Trayvon Martin to battling attempts to suppress the black vote and helping shape the successful strategy in the fight to protect a free and open Internet, ColorOfChange has been at the forefront of the most critical civil rights issues of this century.Before joining The Chronicle, Stacey Patton was a senior editor and writer for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. She has also reported for the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun.Talking About Race is presented in partnership with Open Society Institute-Baltimore.

Ms. Susan Patton "The Princeton Mom" visits The Context of White Supremacy. Patton is a White Woman, an Executive Coach, human resources consultant, and a columnist for the Wall Street Journal. She authored the controversial book, Mary Smart: Advice for Finding THE ONE. Dr. Boyce Watkins and Ms. Patton had an exchange of views where she discussed Racism within the context of the Ferguson and Eric Garner unrest. Patton detailed why Whites are afraid of black people and how that generates incidents such as Renisha McBride and Tamir Rice. Dr. Vernellia Randall recently emphasized that White fear does not provide a license to terrorize. We'll see if she functions as a Racist and how much truth she is willing to reveal. #WhiteWomenAreLethal #AnswersForMiriamCarey INVEST in The COWS - http://tiny.cc/ledjb CALL IN NUMBER: 760.569.7676 CODE 564943# SKYPE: FREECONFERENCECALLHD.7676 CODE 564943# The C.O.W.S. archives: http://tiny.cc/76f6p

The Context of White Supremacy hosts our annual counter racist year-end review. We'll reconsider major events and patterns of the previous twelve months of world wide White Supremacy. 2014 was marked by the loss of black legends. Dr. Maya Angelou, Mayor Marion Barry, Mayor Chokwe Lumumba, Amiri Baraka, Ruby Dee, Sam Greenlee, Vincent Harding, Herman Ferguson and Yuri Kochiyama all transitioned. All of these Victims of Racism invested their superb talents and life currency in countering Racism. Whites spent most of the year tarring Richard Sherman, Michael Brown, Jr., Renisha McBride, Tamir Rice, Al Sharpton, Boko Haram, Elliot Rodger and black people in general as thugs and terrorists. Conversely, innocent Whites like Darren Wilson, Donald Sterling, Cliven Bundy, Theodore Waffer, and Jill Abramson were defended as White martyrs. This was the 25 year anniversary of Do The Right Thing, and "police" departments continued their lengthy tradition of chokeholds, terrorizing and killing black people. Whites recognized the 20 year anniversary of the Rwanda genocide and demonstrated the same disdain for black life when the Ebola epidemic menaced the west coast of Africa. There was much White noise for black corpses, but lesser, muted White effort for improving the existence of living black people. INVEST in The COWS - http://tiny.cc/ledjb CALL IN NUMBER: 760.569.7676 CODE 564943# SKYPE: FREECONFERENCECALLHD.7676 CODE 564943#

Rod and Karen Rod and Karen discuss the passing of Robin Williams, more information in the Mike Brown killing, KimYe tried it, Jagged Edge is back, LGBT people less likely to be religious, Michael J Hudson, Swastika on a bun, NYPD broken windows law, Renisha McBride, TX mom locked 6 year old out of apartment, TSA pedo, 300 lbs of weed, slave owner in 2014 and sword ratchetness. Twitter: @rodimusprime @SayDatAgain @TBGWT Email: theblackguywhotips@gmail.com Blog: www.theblackguywhotips.com Voice Mail: 704-557-0186 Sponsors: www.tweakedaudio.com Code: TBGWT

This is the latest & BRAND NEW episode of the syndicated FuseBox Radio Broadcast with DJ Fusion & Jon Judah (aka Ausar Ra Black Hawk) for the week of August 6, 2014 with some new and classic music from the international Black Diaspora, news and commentary. Our commentary for this week's brand new show focused on what we've been up to lately since we've been away from the studio with travel, music, press stuff & life, mini-movie reviews ("Rise of the Planet of the Apes", "Lucy" & "Guardians of the Galaxy"), the passing of Jazz, Funk & Soul music drummer Idris Muhammad, the Renisha McBride verdict & it's aftermath, the first round of news about the unjustified killing of unarmed teenager Michael Brown in the St. Louis area by police and some other things here & there. Feel free to check out some recent episodes of the syndicated FuseBox Radio Broadcast over at our official blog, BlackRadioIsBack.com - all of the shows are clean/radio friendly. FuseBox Radio Playlist for the Week of August 6, 2014 Top Adds (New Joints Played Live On This Week's Broadcast) [listed by artist/song title/label(s)] 1. Dilated Peoples/Good As Gone/Rhymesayers Ent. 2. Flume feat. Ghostface Killah & Autre Ne Veut/Space Cadet/Mom + Pop 3. MarQ Spekt & Blockhead/SumOfItsPArts/HipNott 4. Leela James feat. Anthony Hamilton/Say That/BMG 5. Goapele/Hey Boy/BMG & Primary Wave Music 6. Martyn feat. Four Tet/Glassbeadgames/Ninja Tune 7. Kelis/Fish Fry (Darq E Freaker RMX)/Ninja Tune 8. Got A Girl/Friday Night/Bulk Recordings 9. Basement Jaxx/Never Say Never/Atlantic Jazz & PIAS Recordings 10. FaltyDL/New Haven/Ninja Tune 11. Common/Rewind That/Def Jam 12. Drake/Sooner Than Later (DJ Paypal RMX)/White Label 13. Adrian Yonge Souls of Mischief feat. Snoop Dog/There Is Only Now (inst.)/Linear Labs 14. Amp Live/Penny Nickel Dime (inst.)/Plug Research Top Spins (Music Still Lasting in Rotation/Music Played Live on Air Each Week/As Well As Music Requested By The Listeners) [listed by artist/song title/label(s)] 1. Ark The God Given MC/Celefuckinbration/WhoIsArk.com (Played Live) 2. Lizzo/Buss Passes and Happy Meals/White Label (Played Live) 3. The Roots feat. Dice Raw & Greg Porn/Understand/OkayPlayer & Def Jam (Top Song Selected) 4. Goldlink/Bedtime Story/SquaaashClub.com (Top Song Selected) 5. E-MC/Charly Murphie/Penalty Ent. (Top Song Selected) 6. SZA/Sweet November/TDE (Top Song Selected) 7. Kelela/Bank Head/KelelaMusic.tumblr.com (Top Song Selected) 8. Mr. Scruff/Deliverance/Ninja Tune (Top Song Selected) 9. Pharoahe Monch feat. The Stepkids/Eht Dnarg Noisulli/W.A.R. Media & Duck Down Music (Top Song Selected) 10. Karol Conka/Olhe-Se (Part Tuti)/Mr. Bongo (Top Song Selected) 11. SciFi Stu feat. yU, Boog Brown, Hus Kingpin & Chinch 33/Thru Life/HipNott Records (Top Song Selected) 12. Hakim Green/Say Dat!/24 Hours of Peace Inc. & Anti Industry (Top Song Selected) 13. Apollo Brown/The Answer/Mello Music Group (Top Song Selected) 14. The Roots/When The People Cheer/Def Jam (Top Song Selected) 15. Atmosphere/Southsiders RMX/Rhymesayers (Top Song Selected) 16. BADBADNOTGOOD/Can't Leave The Night/Innovative Leisure (Top Song Selected) 17. Kelis/Rumble (Breach Extended RMX)/Ninja Tune (Top Song Selected) 18. Jazz Spastiks feat. Apani B. Fly/Move/JazzSpastiks.bandcamp.com (Top Song Selected) 19. MeccaGodzilla/Isa Amber/MeccaGodZilla.com (Top Song Selected) 20. The Band Called FUSE/Soul Rock Anthem (inst.)/White Label (Top Song Selected) 21. Neneh Cherry/Everything/Smalltown Supersound (Top Song Selected) 22. Mo Kolours/Mike Black/One Handed Music (Top Song Selected) 23. Freddie Gibbs & Madlib/Harolds/Madlib Invazion (Top Song Selected) 24. Brothers In Arms (J. Boogie & Deejay Theory)/Jamacian Gyal/BrotherInArmsMusic.com (Top Song Selected) 25. Big K.R.I.T. feat. Big SANT & Smoke DZA/Steps/BigKRIT.com (Top Song Selected) DJ Fusion Flashback Tracks: M.O.P./Salute/Relativity Ski Beatz feat. Stalley/S.T.A.L.L.E.Y./BluRoc, DD172 & Def Jam Cameo/Word Up/Atlanta Artists GZA/Labels/Geffen & MCA Records Anushka/I Have Love For You/Brownswood Productions De La Soul feat. Jungle Brothers, Monie Love, Q-Tip & Queen Latifah/Buddy (Native Tongue Decision Version)/Tommy Boy Digital Underground/Same Song/Tommy Boy Brand New Heavies/People Get Ready RMX/MCA Rakim/Guess Who's Back (Alternative Mix)/Universal PLUS Some Extra Special Hidden Tracks in the Jon Judah (aka Ausar Ra Black Hawk) Master Mix w/ Old School Black Music Classics and Independent Music Finds

In this episode, we discuss the deaths of Renisha McBride, Eric Gardner, and Michael Brown. We also talk about the deeper racial implications behind these deaths, dealing with the police, and the loss of young black lives as a whole. Also, Mike tells a story regarding some f**kery on Facebook. :)

Welcome to the Seriouside of the jril show.  This morning, we will be talking about the following topics: SEGMENT 1:  HERE WE GO AGAIN? President Obama ordered airstrikes in Iraq to protect US Citizens and religious minorities trapped in Iraq. Obama says that there is no time table for this military action.  Is this a good idea? SEGMENT 2: FINALLY! Theodore Wayne was convicted of second degree murder in the shooting of Renisha McBride.  Wayne and defense team were surprised by the verdict.  We will discuss the verdict. SEGMENT 3: GOOD OR BAD PARENTING! A father decided that he was going to teach his son a lesson for acting up in school by shaving his head to look like the famous character “George Jefferson” from the 70's hit TV show “The Jeffersons”.  Question:  Good or Bad parenting?

BHL: Justice Is Served -- In this episode Black Hollywood Live hosts Mari Fagel and Loni Coombs discusses legal cases for the week of August 8th, 2014. Mari opens up with this weeks 'Case Of The Week' by talking about the verdict in Renisha McBride porch shooting trial. They then switch to talk about this weeks 'On The Docket' cases by discussing New Jersey High Court Rules Lyrics Inadmissible in Rapper's Case, Kanye West Compares Fight Against Paparazzi To Civil Rights Movement, 'Top Chef' Lawsuit Accuses NBC/Bravo of Stealing Show Idea, Kid Rock to Insane Clown Posse-suit lawyers: I don't have glass sex toy, and Teen who sued parents dismisses complaint against ex. They wrap things up with the "Tipping Scales" question Should Kanye have compared the celebrity fight against the paparazzi to the civil rights movement?

The Round Table is a show featuring Women On The Move coming together to discuss current events, relationships, professional issues, hot topics, gossip, and anything else related to a Woman!  Follow Women On The move on twitter at @womenonthemove1 and check us out online at www.mywomenonthemove.com! Today's topics:1. Florida Democrats accuse Leslie Wimes of being a Republican Plant2. The Trial of Renisha McBride's killer3. The death of Eric Garner4. Doctor pulls a weapon on a mother and child at a Phoenix airport.  5. Violence intensifies between Israel and Palestine6. Detroit shuts off water7. Ray Rice gets two game suspension for knocking girlfriend unconscious.

The Round Table is a show featuring Women On The Move coming together to discuss current events, relationships, professional issues, hot topics, gossip, and anything else related to a Woman!  Follow Women On The move on twitter at @womenonthemove1 and check us out online at www.mywomenonthemove.com! Today's topics:1. Florida Democrats accuse Leslie Wimes of being a Republican Plant2. The Trial of Renisha McBride's killer3. The death of Eric Garner4. Doctor pulls a weapon on a mother and child at a Phoenix airport.  5. Violence intensifies between Israel and Palestine6. Detroit shuts off water7. Ray Rice gets two game suspension for knocking girlfriend unconscious.

1. Episode 6, Part 1: Weekly Discussion (Teaching English abroad) In this week’s discussion, we discuss the imperialistic machine that is teaching English abroad. What do we mean by cultural imperialism? Is there a way to teach English abroad in a socially conscious manner? What are some of the common things that Chuks and Kari have seen, given that they both have or currently are teaching English abroad? We have input from kenyabenyagurl, salviprince, thenaughtyscholar, and feministdonut. 2. Episode 6, Part 2: News Stories In this week’s news stories, Rihanna fronts Balmain’s SS2014 campaign and converts the bedrooms of her New York apartment into a giant walk-in closet; Michelle Howard is nominated to become admiral and vice chief of naval operations; the Renisha McBride story gets dirtier; Yayaoi Kusama’s I Who Have Arrived in Heaven is so popular to the point that people are waiting hours to see it; Amazon and Target have gone to war against Beyonce. We also discuss asks from ithinkhernamewaskaylyn with regards to Tommy Sotomayor and his comments about Black women and wait-i-dontthink-t-getit with regards to something that popped up on Twitter.

In this week’s news stories, we have Ines Rau and Tyson Beckford’s photoshoot; the tale of two waitresses and their tips; Lady Gaga’s ARTPOP flop and Thor 2’s opening weekend numbers; Lily Allen’s non-apology; Renisha McBride.

Rod and Karen discuss their trip to Durham, meeting Chris Lamberth, Phonte and Chris Hardwich, brunch with fan/friends, The Best Man Holiday, Kids for Cash scheme, TDE's CEO mad at GQ, evil twin defense, Facebook privacy, waitress not given tip by homophobes, Burt's Bees apology, Macklemore religion, cops shoot at minivan, Renisha McBride. Twitter: @rodimusprime @SayDatAgain @TBGWT Blog: www.theblackguywhotips.com Voice Mail: 704-557-0186 Sponsors: www.tweakedaudio.com Code: TBGWT www.adamandeve.com And they're on Twitter: @adamandeve Code: TBGWT

Decided to go LIVE! today and discuss updates on Renisha McBride. Charges have been filed.

Welcome to the Seriouside of the jril show.  We be discussing the following topics this moring: 1ST SEGMENT:  KENNEDY ASSASSINATION: Shortly after noon on November 22, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated as he rode in a motorcade through Dealey Plaza in downtown Dallas.  Why are americans still fascinated with his death 50 years later?  2ND SEGMENT:  I'M SORRY: Facing open revolt from members of his own party over the disastrous roll-out of his signature health care law, President Barack Obama apologized to congressional Democrats Thursday for “letting them down 3RD SEGMENT:  MURDERED:  Theodore Paul Wafer, a Detroit-area man, was charged with murder Friday in the shooting death of 19-year-old Renisha McBride on his porch. Racially motivated?

BHL: Justice Is Served - In this episode Black Hollywood Live hosts Eboni K. Williams and Mari Fagel discuss legal cases for the week of November 8th, 2013. Mari opens up with this weeks 'Case Of The Week' by talking about Renisha McBride. Eboni switches to talk about this weeks 'On The Docket' cases by discussing Chris Brown's countersuit against "heavily intoxicated" woman, Katherine Jackson doesn't want Conrad Murray to get his medical license, Spike Lee sued by Florida couple, Alec Baldwin's stalker found guilty, and Lil Kim's ex-boyfriend ordered to take antipsychotic drugs. They round things off with a 'Tipping the Scales' Why was Jonathan Martin targeted by Richie Incognito?

BHL: Justice Is Served - In this episode Black Hollywood Live hosts Eboni K. Williams and Mari Fagel discuss legal cases for the week of November 8th, 2013. Mari opens up with this weeks 'Case Of The Week' by talking about Renisha McBride. Eboni switches to talk about this weeks 'On The Docket' cases by discussing Chris Brown's countersuit against "heavily intoxicated" woman, Katherine Jackson doesn't want Conrad Murray to get his medical license, Spike Lee sued by Florida couple, Alec Baldwin's stalker found guilty, and Lil Kim's ex-boyfriend ordered to take antipsychotic drugs. They round things off with a 'Tipping the Scales' Why was Jonathan Martin targeted by Richie Incognito?

"These buses came back from the West End with these little kids on them, and they were crying, there were windows knocked out. They had been beaten with baseball bats, they had been called every horrible racial name you can expect, right here in this town." It sounds like a scene we'd expect to see in the deep South, but this happened in Louisville in the middle of the 1970s, when public schools implemented the busing system. That's how performing artist Teresa Willis remembers it, and it makes up part of her one-woman show, Eenie Meanie. Because Louisville itself was so segregated, neighborhood schools were largely either black or white. Busing was designed to achieve greater diversity within school, but was met with resistance. "Racism really came out of the closet in my community," Teresa remembers. "There's crosses burning at the football field. Literally, we're at a football game and a cross gets lit on fire. It was not pretty in 1975, '76 around here at all. Dixie Highway at Valley Station road were thousands and thousands of people rioting. We made the national news. People were so angry." Teresa also lived in L.A. during the 1992 riots. Eenie Meanie looks at racism in the baby boomer generation and in her own life. She joined us this week to talk about the piece, which is part of the Slant Culture Theatre Festival going on this weekend and next (she's also the festival's director). In our Juicy Fruit segment this week, we talk about the horrible case of Renisha McBride, the 19-year-old black woman who was shot in the face by a white man when she went to his door for help after a car accident. Friend to the show Dr. Brittney Cooper, covering the story for Salon, pointed out the similarities between this incident and the recent shooting of Jonathan Farrell, who was also shot and killed while seeking help after an accident. She also points out how this case is different from recent white-on-black killings: because the victim in this case is a woman, and, "we have somehow come to believe that black women’s femininity exempts them from what Kiese Laymon has called 'the worst of white folks.'" Kaila also breaks down 12 Years a Slave with some historical analysis, and shares her reactions to the film. Among many other issues, the film demonstrates how lack of access to reading and writing tools was used as a weapon against enslaved people. "The fact that I'm sitting there as an African American, as a free person with a doctorate, watching this film about a man who was prevented from writing," she says, "It's a really really awful story. It was tough." ► VIDEO: 1975 Busing Riots

Download PodcastRecently TRUTH Minista Paul Scott created a lot of controversy when he suggested that NWA should not be included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Various Hip Hop writers have gone on the attack. Tuesday night November 12th  at 9PM EST on Militant Minded Radio, TRUTH Minista fires back...It's coon huntin' season.... AllHipHop is reporting, "Grandmaster Melle Mel, Grandmaster Caz, Afrika Bambaataa, and Grand Wizard Theodore are working with the Windows of Hip Hop development project to establish a new exhibition hall in the birthplace of Hip Hop – The Bronx." We will also discuss the killing of 19 yr old Renisha McBride who was shot in the face by a white homeowner in Dearborn, Michigan. In Hip Hop and Ratchet Rap related news..... Man Claims Cops Told him to Rap in Order to Avoid Being ArrestedLord Jamar Laments Eminem's MTV EMAs WinHip-Hop Wired's Guide To Rap Struggle: A Step-By-Step Breakdown Find links to these stories on our Facebook Page Militant Minded Radio

19 year old Renisha McBride was killed after seeking help for possible injuries sustained from a car accident. After knocking on the door of a person who lived in Dearborn Heights, Michigan, McBride was shot and died at the scene. Is this about race or what the shooter in actual fear for his life? Would you feel safe knocking on the door of a stranger to ask for help after being involved in a car accident?

In this edition of the I'm Black, He's Mexican Podcast, Arizona Verse & Soul Papo join forces to wax philosophically about the zombie apocalypse, Carmen Carrera the first Transgender Victoria's Secret Model, Richie Incognito & bullying in the NFL, catfishing gone wrong, Miley Cyrus Bangerz, Justin Bieber caught with a Brazilian Prostitute, new Childish Gambino album, Tyler The Creator disses Will.I.Am, Diddy changes his birthday, Ab-Soul threatens to leave Black Hippy, Barney's Controversy and Jay Z's Barney's collection, The Marshall Mathers LP 2 review, Miley Cyrus Vs. Nicki Minaj, man punches woman through glass window, LAX Shooting, Renisha McBride shot looking for help, and Japanese teenagers lose interest in sex. Contact Us: Leave a voicemail: 480-588-4688 Email Us: arizonasoulpodcast@gmail.com Subscribe: On Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7z0hEIuLv91JN5tdtdPOeA On Stitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/s?fid=38104&refid=stpr On Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/arizonasoulpodcast Follow Us: On Twitter: https://twitter.com/arizonasoulpod On Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/ArizonaSoulPodcast On Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arizonasoulpodcast/ On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/arizonasoulpodcast/