Podcasts about sarah there

"My activism is just one tool in the activism tool kit." Sarah Corbett is an award-winning activist, author, Ashoka Fellow and founder of the global Craftivist Collective. She grew up in a low-income area of the UK into an activist family and has worked as a professional campaigner for over a decade, most recently with Oxfam GB. She started doing craftivism (craft + activism) in 2008 to add a different tool of activism into the toolkit - a form of slow, quiet and intimate effective activism she calls ‘Gentle Protest'.  Due to demand, Sarah set up the award-winning Craftivist Collective in 2009, providing products and services for individuals, groups and organisations around the world to be effective gentle craftivists. Sarah's work has helped change government laws, business policies as well as hearts and minds through her unique ‘Gentle Protest' methodology. She works across the arts sector, charity sector and academia, as well as with unusual allies to reach people nervous of activism in an attractive and empowering way. Corbett regularly gives talks, events and happenings around the world. Her book “How To Be A Craftivist: the art of gentle protest” is now available in paperback. Her talk ‘Activism Needs Introverts' was chosen as a TED Talk of the Day and has over a million views. You can preorder her Craftivist Collective Handbook here https://linktr.ee/DavidPearl Time Line 00.00 - 00.45 Opening Credits 00.46 - 04.58 Introducing Sarah Corbett 05.00 - 06.25 Growing up in an activist family 06.25 - 09.05 Routes into Gentle Activism 09.10 - 13.00 The Canary Campaign 13.05 - 15.55 The importance of courage and care 15.57 - 18.10 Different forms of craftivism 18.30 - 23.15 Gentle protest & self control 23.18 - 26.35 Making change 26.38 - 27.41 Being ‘crafty' but kind 27.43 - 29.30 How Sarah manages anger 29.35 - 34.25 The Tale of the MP & the Handkerchief 34.28 - 37.55 The Wanderful Exercise: In Their Shoes 38.12 - 41.29 Epilogue 41.30 - 42.16 End Credits   Quotations “My activism is just one tool in the activism tool-kit.” (Sarah) “I knew change doesn't just happen in transactional and loud and public ways.” (Sarah) “My craftivism is all about where are the gaps and where can craftivism fill certain gaps to compliment other tactics and where can it bring in audiences who are scared of activism but (who are) influential.” (Sarah) “My approach to craftivism is Gentle Protest.” (Sarah) “There's something in the process of craft that's really helping me slow down, calm down and think more strategically, so I thought there must be something in this.” (Sarah) “If we want to make change then gentleness can be so powerful, and putting yourself in the power holder's shoes, and not just the person affected.” (Sarah) “The gentleness is treading lightly and being gentle with people.” (Sarah) “It's more about trying things out and being light touch on everything… not holding things and forcing things.” (Sarah) “If you receive something which feels a little manipulative… you're going to close off. You want people to feel genuinely encouraged and accountable.” (Sarah) “When I'm angry… I jump it out, I dance it out, I power walk somewhere, I just shake the anger out of me. Long term anger is chronic and produces really bad health and mental health problems. I know anger is a good catalyst, but I need to shake it out.” (Sarah) “I swing from really angry to okay.. .how am I going to use this anger in an effective, useful way, which won't change the world dramatically but I can try and make some nudges and tweaks with the little power I have as one little scouser.” (Sarah) Contact Information Sarah Corbett https://craftivist-collective.com/ Twitter: @craftivists Instagram: @Craftivists   David Pearl (Host) Twitter @DavidPearlHere Instagram @davidpearl_here Website www.davidpearl.net   Andrew Paine (Producer & Audio Engineer) Twitter @ItPainesMe   The Green Room at COP26 - What (On Earth's) The Story? Full film: https://youtu.be/UWoO9UmWscM Trailer: https://youtu.be/zmQqj5WHSPM                          

For youngsters in school, nutritional meals really do lead the higher grades and better performance across the board. Today we'll explore a policy called the Community Eligibility Provision or CEP that allows schools in low-income areas to offer free meals to all students. We have two guests today. Marianne Hedrick Weant, Programs Manager at the North Carolina Alliance for Health and Dr. Sarah Crittenden Fuller, Research Associate Professor at The University of North Carolina and a proud Duke alum from our own program. She's also the coauthor of a new policy brief on this topic, entitled Meals Matter, The Community Eligibility Provision and Students' Success in North Carolina.   Can you help our listeners understand why school meals are so important to students and how universal free meals are so different than the traditional way these programs are structured?   Sarah: There's a large body of research that shows how important proper nutrition is for children's cognitive development, as well as their health and development. Kids who aren't getting proper nutrition. They aren't able to concentrate in school and to perform the way that they would if they were receiving proper nutrition. School meals have historically provided nutrition and increased food security for low income students. As adults sometimes we tend to have the perception that school meals are low in nutritional quality, but that's not really true. Recent research suggests that school meals provide better nutrition for students than the alternatives that they might be bringing from home or eating otherwise.   The traditional structure of the National School Lunch Program and the School Breakfast Program requires many eligible families to apply to receive these free meals, even if they are eligible based on their income. And so that can create a barrier to participation either because families simply don't know that they need to apply, don't know how to do so or have some concerns about signing up for this benefit. In addition, because receiving free meals is tied to income, it can be stigmatizing for students. Kids can be pretty savvy, especially when you think about the middle and high school level. And they can recognize that receiving a free meal is a marker of family income, and that can result in students not really wanting to walk up there and get those meals.   So the Community Eligibility Provision allows high poverty schools to opt in to providing universal free meals for all students within their school, rather than collecting this individual eligibility. Instead school meals just become available for everybody, which is great in several ways. It reduces the administrative burden from schools who are having to still collect these applications, have a cash register in the cafeteria where they check off students and make sure that they're eligible for free meals or collect money if aren't eligible. In addition to removing that administrative burden, this has the potential to change the culture around school meals.   Thanks and Marianne I'd appreciate your thoughts.   Marianne: School meals ended up being such a weird part of the day as they are right now. And that's because there's really no other part of the school day where you expect some kids to not pay anything at all and you expect other kids to pay a certain amount. And then a third group of kids to pay a different amount. It's a really really strange point in the school day that can cause cultural issues at a school and create groups of kids that have and groups of kids that have not. But it doesn't have to be that way. And CEP is a real opportunity for a lot of schools to change that.   So what are the effects of universal free meals for students?   Sarah: First off, one of the questions I think a lot of people have as well, do more students actually eat meals when there are universal free meals? Because in theory, the students who would benefit most, the low-income students already had access to free meals. But what we do see is that when schools switched to universal free meals through the Community Eligibility Provision, there is a big increase in the number of meals served. In North Carolina in that first year that school started implementing the Community Eligibility Provision, the increase was equivalent to every student within the school eating 20 additional breakfast and 20 additional lunches, which is a pretty big impact. And now of course we know it's not evenly distributed across the school, but this means many students are either eating meals more days or students who weren't eating school meals at all are now eating school meals. And so that's a pretty notable change.   Research also shows that providing universal free meals through CEP can have impacts on educational outcomes. So some studies show improved attendance for students and schools that are offering free meals. This makes some sense if you think about the incentive students have to come to school so that they can pick up that free breakfast. In many studies and including some work I've done myself increases in academic performance on test scores related to school meals and reductions in suspensions, particularly among older students, a brand new study even shows that students at schools with Community Eligibility Provision report improves school culture, they report feeling safer at school and particularly feeling safer within the cafeteria.   So all of these things are really big benefits that extend beyond just making sure students have food security that also impacts everything about their school day. In the state of North Carolina, you see that the schools that are participating in the Community Eligibility Provision compared to schools with similar rates of low-income students have a higher report card grades. Broadly we're seeing, it looks like these schools are performing better academically and that's really great news.   I remember in the early days when people were considering universal free meals, there was a special concern around breakfast that some kids may be eating at home and then coming in and having another breakfast meal and that it might be contributing to the childhood obesity problem.   Sarah: So the evidence I've seen looking at obesity and the Community Eligibility Provision suggests that that's not what's happening. When you think about kids, particularly young kids, eating a second breakfast may be fairly normal for that age range. I think the assumption that if students are eating twice, that that is leading to obesity, isn't always a great assumption.   You've raised good points that it's overall nutrition that counts, not necessarily the number of meals. So I'd like to get both of you to weigh in. What do you think the future will look like for universal school meals?   Sarah: So the pandemic has created a big change here where nationwide schools have been able to offer universal free meals, whether they were in school or out of school for at least some portion of the time they've been providing school meals to students who aren't actually physically in the school building. For the moment, the US Department of Agriculture has extended some of those waivers to allow schools to continue offering universal free meals through the 2021-22 school year. So that's going to last this second pandemic school year, we're approaching here. After that, the future's uncertain. That's an important problem that we have now, a year to think about it is well what does the future look like?   The data that I'm talking about with regard to the Community Eligibility Provision is really only for those first three, four years of implementation. It's great that we're seeing positive results already, but we really don't know what it looks like once this has been in place for long enough to really create that culture shift that you would hope to see, particularly at the high school level. Even if you remove the cash register and you change the mechanisms for receiving school meals, particularly at the high school level, it's going to be a lag while students are still thinking about these meals in the same way. And so some of those reductions in stigma and increase in uptake of school meals may take a while. And so we don't really know yet the full potential of universal school meals. Hopefully, as we're moving forward here and coming out of this pandemic and thinking about, well, are we going back to a system that requires some students to pay for meals and others to not, this is something that states and the nation need to be thinking about.   And Marianne what are your thoughts on the future?   Marianne: I think it's interesting because we're in kind of a really critical moment for school meals, where we have another year of universal meals for our pandemic school year, but we're also right up on child nutrition reauthorization at the federal level. And so it's an opportunity to eliminate this weird point in the day and make universal meals available to all schools and all school systems this year. Will they do it? I don't know. I feel like we're seeing more energy around this than we have in the past. And I think it's hard to imagine going back to it and telling kids in a year, that they'll be paying for school meals when they didn't this past year. And if it's not that at the federal level, there's of course an opportunity for it to be done at the state level. We just saw California pass universal meals there, and then it always can be done just by making sure that every school system and every school that's eligible for CEP participate.   Bios:     Sarah Crittenden Fuller holds a Ph.D. in public policy from the Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke University. She currently serves as Principal Investigator for the multi-year evaluation of the Gaining Early Awareness and Readiness for Undergraduate Programs (GEAR UP) North Carolina intervention.  Fuller is also leading projects examining the impacts of natural disasters on educational outcomes nationwide and the impacts of remote learning due to COVID-19 on schools in North Carolina.  Other areas of ongoing research include high school reform models, the impacts of school nutrition on academic outcomes, and the influence of hurricanes in North Carolina on childhood outcomes.  Fuller's work leverages large administrative datasets and quasi-experimental designs to estimate the causal effects of particular policies or events on student outcomes. She uses primarily quantitative methods to address research questions surrounding schools and students focusing on questions that have the potential to inform policy decisions.  Fuller has received grant funding from the Spencer Foundation, the National Science Foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Russell Sage Foundation, and the W.T. Grant Foundation. She has recent publications in Economics of Education Review, AASA Journal of Scholarship and Practice, AERA Open, and Urban Education.   Marianne Hedrick Weant is the programs manager at the North Carolina Alliance for Health (NCAH). Prior to joining the staff of NCAH in 2018, Weant spent nine years with the North Carolina PTA. Weant completed a BA in anthropology and history at George Mason University and an MA in anthropology and development at the George Washington University before receiving an MSPH from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Weant lives in Cary with her husband, six kids, five chickens, and dog, and her children attend Wake County schools.  

This week we chat with Diana Richardson, Social Media & Community Manager for the SEO division of Semrush, all about SERP features. Where to find Diana: Twitter: https://twitter.com/DianaRich013 (https://twitter.com/DianaRich013) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/%F0%9F%8D%B7-diana-richardson-8965a317/ --- Resources: https://www.semrush.com/blog/ --- Episode Sponsor This season is sponsored by NOVOS. NOVOS, the London-based eCommerce SEO agency, has won multiple awards for its eCommerce SEO campaigns including Best Global SEO Agency of The Year 2 years running working with brands like Bloom & Wild and Not On The High Street. They are running an exclusive Shopify SEO roundtable for eCommerce leaders on September 23rd with limited spaces available. If you're interested, reach out to them via thisisnovos.com or message their co-founder Antonio Wedral on LinkedIn. Where to find Novos: Website - https://thisisnovos.com/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/thisisnovos Twitter - https://twitter.com/thisisnovos Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thisisnovos/ --- Episode Transcript: Sarah: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, I am Sarah McDowell, SEO Content Executive at Holland and Barrett, and I am your host for today. We have Diana Richardson joining us today, who is social media and community manager for the SEO unit at SEMRush. Hello, Diana. Diana: Sarah. Oh, my gosh. I could just listen to you all day. I love your voice. Sarah: Thank you. Maybe I need to think of ways to make money out of my voice. Maybe that's what I need to do? Diana: Yeah, you definitely should. Sarah:  I feel like we've already cleared something up. So, it is SEMRush rather than S-E-M-rush? Diana: Yes, and we have a lot of fun with how you pronounce our name. But in December of 2020, we went through a rebrand and we revisited our logo, and you'll notice our name is not capitalised as much as it used to be. So, we definitively made it Semrush in December of 2020. But in my career of all these years, I've always called it SEM Rush. So, it was a big change for me too. I've just now kind of get it down. Sarah: There you go. You've heard it here official. Well, let's start by getting to know you, Diana, so please would you be so kind and give us a brief overview of yourself? So, what you do and how you got into this wonderful world of SEO. Diana: My SEO journey started in 2006 when I answered an ad in the paper. Yes, we did not have things like indeed at that time and neither was SEO as a career choice. So, the ad was actually for a marketing specialist. And so, I sat down for the interview and the woman who would become my manager described SEO and PPC to me, and it was with a company that was transitioning from print to digital. So, I learned this from the ground up, brand spanking new, no training in college, with my clients, hands-on for 15 years. It's the best way to learn. I was with them for quite a long time, but then I wanted to branch out beyond SEO. And so, I found a job as a digital marketing director where I got to learn social media, email, branding, storytelling, all of those beautiful elements, and then actually networked my way to the job here at Semrush, which combines both of my loves, which is talking to people and SEO. So, it worked out great. Sarah: Are you ready for me to do a quick-fire round of questions? Diana: Yes. [Quick Fire Questions] Sarah: There are loads of ways that you can be creative. You don't have to draw. What empowers you to be the brilliant woman that you are today? Diana: Besides my genes? I love this question because I think it has been a 38-year journey, right? We learn things every step of the way. And what has empowered me to be how I am, where I am, is finding that it was OK to be me. Many, many more doors have opened for me just being myself, including my job with Semrush and being part of the Women in Tech SEO

Sarah: So do you dream a lot? Do you remember your dreams?Todd: I usually do. Although, I have to admit, now that I'm older, I don't dream so much. It's pretty rare that I have a dream. But I will have dreams if I'm really stressed or if I'm really sick. So usually, every time I get sick, I notice I'm sick because I have a dream. And I'll wake up in the middle of the night from some crazy dream and then I'll notice, oh wow, I'm sick.So yeah, that's about it.Sarah: That's very interesting.Todd: Yeah. Although, you know, when I was younger, I used to have all these dreams related to work. I guess they were stress-related. And the craziest dream was, I was a waiter at a very fast-paced restaurant, and it was very stressful. And you had to wait on about 10 tables, and people would come in and you have to get their food fast. And if you didn't, you'd get yelled at by the boss or the customers would be upset.So I used to have this dream – and this is when I was in college, that I would be sleeping and there would be a table in my room and the customers would be sitting there watching me sleep, and they would be furious because I wasn't bringing their food. I was like just sleeping in the bed right next to their table. And it was the same nightmare I had for – like again and again and again. It was crazy.Sarah: That's really interesting. And kind of funny, too.Todd: Yeah, I know. And it's weird how you have the same recurring dream. I used to have another dream, a nightmare when I was young. And it would be – I was riding a bicycle up like a mountain and the mountain was – like had a path that just kept going around and around the mountain. And you had to be really careful or else your bike would fall off the cliff. And then, my bike of course would go off the cliff and I would fall, fall, fall and you would wake up right before you hit the ground.I had that dream many, many times when I was a little kid.Sarah: Wow.Todd: Yeah.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Do you ever have nightmares or any dreams like that?Sarah: Yeah. I don't dream very often but I have this one reoccurring dream also where I am in school and it's at the end of the semester and I suddenly realized that there's one class that I haven't been going to the entire semester and I'm going to fail it. So I panic and I'm running around like trying to find my professor to like try to figure out what I need to do or what I need to study for the final exam so that I don't fail this class.But what's really interesting about this dream is I found out a few years ago that my father has the same reoccurring dream.Todd: Wow. You know, this is going to sound crazy. I've had that dream, too. I've had a dream of like I registered for a course in college and I never went to the course, and I'm going to get an F. And I don't even remember when I registered or where the class is but I didn't finish the class. Is that the same dream?Sarah: Exact same dream.Todd: Wow. I wonder what it means.Sarah: Me too.Todd: Maybe there's somebody out there that really knows what it means and they're like, "Uh-oh, those two people are doomed."Sarah: There must be a lot of people with that dream.Todd: Yeah. And maybe that's it, like there's certain structures. Like I know that the bike dream that I have about falling off the cliff, I've heard that many people have that. Yeah.Have you ever heard about the dream – I had it a couple of times, a dream where you're in class and then you suddenly notice that you don't have any clothes on and you're afraid that people are going to notice you don't have any clothes on?Sarah: No, I've never had that one.Todd: Yeah. That was one when I was really, really little, but yeah.Sarah: I've heard that some people – a lot of people have dreams about their teeth falling out and that this means that like they're afraid of losing something in their life.Todd: Really?Sarah: Something that's really important to them.Todd: Oh wow. So if you're teeth are falling, you're going to lose something.Sarah: Yeah.Todd: Wow.Sarah: Or you're afraid of losing something because most people, their teeth are really important to them.Todd: Yeah. Interesting. Well, I don't have any nightmares anymore. It's pretty rare. How about you?Sarah: Yeah. Same as me. Thank goodness.Todd: Yeah. Maybe it's just a young thing.Sarah: Maybe.

What We Covered:00:45 – Introducing today’s guest, Sarah Massey, who shares her background as an entrepreneur and the work she’s currently doing with Joie de Vivre06:03 – Why it is important for queer people to have a sex positive space to express themselves09:20 – The need for members of the LGBTQ community to feel free11:44 – Sarah speaks to the origin story of the Joie de Vivre platform14:55 – Advice Sarah would give to aspiring entrepreneurs19:42 – Michelle thanks Sarah for joining the show Tweetable Quotes:“People want to have that experience still of exploration. Well, the first events that we started with are called ‘Queer Dance Naked’ because there’s so much exploration and so much fun to be had when you’re doing something a little outside the box.” (04:29) (Sarah)“If I want to be able to be free to be myself, I want to have a space that I know was developed for me. Has a club owner or a party thrower really considered all the needs of the LGBTQ community?” (06:30) (Sarah)“There’s an aspect of queerness that can benefit the whole population. Those of us who have overcome oppression and marginalization have a lot to teach others.” (07:26) (Sarah)“Am I gonna be able to be resilient? And that’s something I’ve learned. It’s the intersection of the art and the activism that creates that resiliency.” (10:54) (Sarah)“I don’t like the idea of these mega corporations telling me how I can live my life. I’m an adult. And if I want to take off my clothes and dance to Prince I should be allowed to.” (13:54) (Sarah)“How am I going to grow and sustain my community? That’s what I really want to do as well, sustain our community.” (17:42) (Sarah)“I believe that there’s a ton of money that people want to spend with queer businesses that have a social mission. And it’s up to us, the entrepreneurs and the visionaries, to get out there and make those offerings.” (18:56) (Sarah) Links Mentioned:Massey Media Website – https://masseymedia.wordpress.com/Joie de Vivre Website – https://www.joie.dance/Sarah’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahmassey/Michelle’s Website – https://michellecoyle.com/podcast/

Not many people trade in both a successful finance career and the chance to get a Harvard diploma for the opportunity to launch a business. But that’s what Sarah Paiji Yoo did. And when she found success and sold her first company, she knew that she could never satisfy that entrepreneurial itch by doing anything but building another company. Sarah went on to co-found a start-up studio and helped launch a number of other companies, including M.Gemi and Rockets of Awesome, but she craved more. Ultimately, she wanted to dig into something that served a deeper purpose.  Today, Sarah is a co-founder of Blueland, a consumer products company on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic packaging. The way Sarah and her team are accomplishing that mission has started with creating a new way to develop and use cleaning products and has included a stop along the way in the Shark Tank, where Mr. Wonderful himself, Kevin O’Leary, bought into the company.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Sarah sheds light on common mistakes that young entrepreneurs make when they are starting out, as well as shares the secrets for avoiding those mistakes. Plus, she explains what the holy grail metric is for judging the health of your company.  3 Takeaways: In the early days when you only have one or two products that consumers buy, it’s easy to keep track of how people get funneled through. As you begin to expand your product offerings, measuring acquisition behavior and retention becomes more important in being able to judge the health of the company and the new products brought to market.  The importance of focusing on product-market fit can’t be overstated. Often, young companies and their founders get caught in the trap of trying to please investors or race to profitability through clever marketing or other shortcuts. The only way to achieve meaningful, sustained success is to know you have product-market fit from the get-go, and then optimizing your strategy from there.   You can still do something even if you don’t have all the pieces to the puzzle. Even though an idea seems simple, there are always going to be complications to work through. Being tenacious and having grit are the keys to being able to see you vision through to completion. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Hey, everyone. This is Stephanie Postles, your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today we have Sarah Paiji Yoo on the show, the co-founder and CEO at Blueland. Sarah, how are you? Sarah: I'm great, how are you, Stephanie? Stephanie: Doing well. And you're calling in from New York, right? Sarah: Yeah. Good, old New York City. Stephanie: Yeah, how's New York life right now? Sarah: New York life, it certainly feels ... It's funny, because I feel like in the beginning, we definitely were the hotspot of coronavirus. But now it feels like one of the safer places to be, given the high immunity. So, it's good. I think it's a little unfortunate that summer now, it's my favorite season in New York, so, it's unfortunate that we're still, for the most part, having to stay at home. But I think we got in our groove and it has definitely given at least my family the opportunity to force ourselves to find other ways to explore nature right outside New York City. Stephanie: So, I'd love to dive a bit into your background before we get into Blueland. Because I read some interesting things about you about having some Ecommerce companies in the past and dropping out of Harvard MBA program and I'd love to hear a bit about your journey of how you got to where you are today. Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So, I guess if I were to start way back, I started my career actually pretty traditionally in finance and consulting. Certainly early in my career I actually had no aspirations to be an entrepreneur. I always consider myself relatively risk-averve so it is interesting to see how life unfolds. But yeah, I started my career very traditionally after those stints in consulting and finance, which I actually wouldn't trade for the world. I really appreciate the experiences and the skillsets that I picked up and the frameworks it gave me to really think about the world and business. Sarah: But after those stints I decided to go back to Harvard for business school, to really, most of all to be able to have the time to step back and reflect on what it was that I wanted to do next. Because I think my early experiences, if anything, taught me that I wasn't a lifer in terms of professional services, I really wanted to be more in the driver's seat and wanted to be at a company versus advising the company. And so, yeah, I made the decision to go to business school. And when I got to business school it was a really interesting time because there had been, right before I came, a series of female founders that had started very impressive companies, GuildCrew, Birchbox, Rent the Runway, LearnVest, Katrina who started Stitch Fix with just one year ahead of me in business school. Sarah: And that was extremely inspiring for me just to see a set of women who were young and had a very similar background or set of experience as myself and see them so quote, unquote, early in their career, setting out to build their own business. And I decided that given business school ... You can make what you want of business school but it doesn't have to be particularly rigorous. And so, I had more time on my hands than I did previously what I was working in, so I decided to really use that time and try to start a business while I was in business school. And a few months in I ended up starting work on my first startup, which was Snapette, which was a mobile shopping app that helps consumers find products and stores around them. Sarah: I was really excited about everything that I was seeing around smartphones and the mobile space. And this was still pretty early on. So, this was almost 10 years ago, pre Instagram days, if you can imagine a world before Instagram. Stephanie: Tough world to start in. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's the first business I decided to start while in school. I ended up raising a round of venture capital that summer between my first and what was supposed to be my second year of business school. And so made ... it was actually a very easy decision, to drop out of Harvard and continue to just work on Snapette. And I ended up scaling that business for the next about three and a half years to a small team, about 20 people. And then we ended up selling that business to one of the world's largest stock search engines at the time, called PriceGrabber. Again, almost four years in. And- Stephanie: That's amazing. What was the process like, selling the company? Did you actively go about selling your company or were you approached? Or how did that look? I heard a good quote the other day that companies don't just get acquired, you actually need to actively go and sell your company if you want it to be sold sometimes. Sarah: It's interesting because I've also heard the opposite. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Sarah: Which I can related to both [inaudible 00:05:48]. I was actually worried with the phrase, but we were lucky in terms of we received an inbound. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: That tipped us off to, "Oh, this might actually be a good time to sell. And the context of that period was, I started Snapette at a time when Mary Meeker and a lot of these industry experts were saying, "Oh, mobile's going to be the future. People are going to spend more time on their phones than on their desktop," and that seemed inconceivable, the early days as she was saying that. And when we sold, that's when we were seeing about 30% of site traffic, to many of the major sites coming from mobile instead of desktop. So, it still hadn't flipped yet. Sarah: But it definitely felt like it was coming. And so, yeah, we had an inbound from a traditional, online, non-mobile player. And that kick started me to reach out to a few more folks in the space that had a similar profile, because if we were going to engage in these conversations I thought, "Let's run a robust process," because obviously competition can always help drive a better outcome. And so that's what I did. And ended up not really engaging a bank or anything. That's where my former finance experience definitely did come in handy because I did have experience buying and selling companies and so I understood ad a high level what that process looked like. And so, yeah, we were able to quarter back that process in-house and get a few offers and ultimately find an acquirer for our business. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, at that point you got the itch to start another company? You're like, "This is great. I'm going for round two." Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So, initially we had ... Not initially. We had a one year lockup with the parent company. And so our whole team moved over. And it was interesting, I think initially I was extremely excited about the prospect of being part of a much larger organization, that had much higher revenues and much larger budget. And I didn't expect how quickly ... I feel like day one, post-acquisition all of a sudden, the speed at which we were running, everything came to a halt. And all of a sudden my calendar was full of just meetings with lots of people back to back. Sarah: And I think it was hard. I think it was hard going from also this small, mobile startup where Apple would make an announcement about the newest feature and then I would get together with my team and our engineers and really think about like, "Oh, how can we integrate this? How can really use this to push our product forward?" And in a larger organization, completely understandably you have much longer product roadmaps, you need to justify why a change that you want to make is going to add more value to the company than some much larger initiatives that maybe underway. Sarah: And we were dealing with 18 month, plus product roadmaps, which to me at the time felt like, "Oh my god, if I have to wait 18 months to start working on some of these things, I'm going to be dead." So, it was an interesting contrast for me. And so, I certainly, definitely developed that itch to go back out and start something again. And I think also as a first time founder with Snapette, I had made so many mistakes along the way. And I was just dying to do it again but be better the next time around. Stephanie: So, then where did you go after that [crosstalk 00:09:35]? Sarah: Yeah, so after that, it's interesting, because I think ... my career, my life had been so linear til pre Snapette. But I think that startup journey really showed me both the joys and the benefits of just being being open to what life may bring and that really just reaffirming the Steve Jobs quote, "If you can't connect the dots forward, only looking back." And so, at that point I knew I wanted to get back into early stage company building. I wasn't proactively looking for my next business or the next idea, but I ended up reconnecting with a former acquaintance in the Ecomm space, Ben Fischman, who had also sold his startup, Rue La La, which was one of the first flash sale sites here in the U.S. Sarah: And he had sold his company right around the same time I sold Snapette. And he was exploring the idea of raising a fund and to start a series of new businesses. So, it wouldn't be a venture capital fund, but it would be more like a startup studio. And the thesis that we both share was that, at this point it was 2013, we believed that it was still very early innings in terms of direct-to-consumer. So, at that point Warby Parker was our, in way, that preeminent example of direct-to-consumer. But it was our belief that we would continue to see whole categories move direct-to-consumer, and many of which we've seen now come into fruition. I remember at that point thinking about, "Oh, we're going to see everything from shoes to socks to tampons to vitamins, etc. Everything is going to develop a new brand and find more efficient ways to directly reach and communicate with consumers." Sarah: And so, yeah, he was like, "You should come do this with me." And at that point, again, I didn't have a specific idea in mind. I knew that I wanted to be back in the company building stage. I loved the tech and direct-to-consumer space. And so, yeah, I jumped onboard with him and was a founding member and partner of that team. And so, that startup studio was called LAUNCH, or is called LAUNCH, it's still around today. And the goal was to then launch one new business per year, which is what we ended up doing. So, over the next four years we launched M.Gemi in our first year, Rockets of Awesome. M.Gemi is a direct-to-consumer footwear business. And then we launches Rockets of Awesome the second year, which is a direct-to-consumer subscription kids apparel business. And then we launched Follain, which is a clean beauty retailer. And in the last year that I was with LAUNCH, LAUNCH Trade, which is a direct-to-consumer coffee marketplace. Stephanie: Very cool. How did those individual companies do? Sarah: The individual companies have all been doing great. They're still around today, very proud of how far they've come. But it was definitely a crazy time. Certainly in a period where we've seen over funding and collapses, you know many important DTC businesses I think very proud to say that all those businesses are in great shape and still around today. Stephanie: Yeah, that sounds really fun. Chaotic and crazy but fun. Were there any universal truths that you learned? Even though the companies sound very different that you were launching there, was there anything that you found a best practice and then you could apply it to future businesses? Sarah: Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway, probably from launching multiple businesses is just the importance of focus and the importance especially of focus on product market that in early days I think it's very easy, especially when you are venture backed, either with access to capital or with this immense pressure to grow quickly, to grow into the valuations that you may have raised that it can be easy to fall into the trap to shift a lot of your focus to marketing and growing. But ultimately the best marketing is an amazing product or service that drives strong retention, strong word of mouth. Sarah: And any marketing spend that you deploy is going to be so much more efficient and effective if you don't have a leaky bucket. And I think that's one that is certainly harder, especially in this world where we celebrate large fundings and also companies growing very quickly. And I just think there's so much value, especially early days of almost staying smaller so that especially the founders can really focus entirely on product-market fit and making all the tweaks necessary to really optimize the product, service or offering. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree about that. How did you all go about finding or knowing when you had product-market fit? Were you like, "This is the one, let's move forward."? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's hard to draw that line in the sand, for sure. I think an important metric or area of metrics to look at certainly are around retention and repeat. Because ultimately there is a lot of focus, especially in D2C, on acquisition. And whether it's customer acquisition cost or cost per acquired customer, ultimately, that doesn't give you the full picture. That just tells you that you were able to have a clever ad and maybe you have attracted someone to make that first purchase. But it's certainly a lot cheaper to have your customer purchase again and repeat with you than having to go out into the market and pay for a brand new customer. And so, we've always been extremely focused on the retention metrics as a leading indicator to help the business. Stephanie: Yeah. yeah, that's great. So, then, at what point were you at LAUNCH where you were, once again, "It's time for me to move on, do my own thing again."? Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I had a crazy journey and it was an amazing ride. I learned a ton about launching new business, having to do that back to back. But I think after my fourth year, after the fourth business, I developed a deep seated desire to do something that was a little more personally meaningful. I think for so many years simply the challenge and excitement of bringing a new brand or product to market that had never existed before was enough for me and it was incredibly energizing. And I still love that aspect of it. But at that point I was looking to build something beyond selling more shoes or beauty products. Sarah: And I think that also was heavily influenced by my becoming a new mom around that time. So, it's not coincidence that the number of years I've been working on Blueland is about the same number of years as my son's age. Stephanie: Yeah, it's funny how all of a sudden, same with me, you get interested in what's organic and what's actually natural and- Sarah: Hard to miss it. Stephanie: Yeah, it's something I never paid attention to that much until having kids. Sarah: Yeah, no, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I think you also start questioning how you're spending your time. You have very limited time, and thinking once you have children and a family it highlights more clearly for you the trade offs between work and rest of life. And I think, I was very open to how I would feel on the other side of motherhood. I was very open to maybe I wasn't going to want to work at all. Maybe I was going to be so obsessed with my child that I was going to want to spend every waking moment with him, which would also have been a fine outcome. But interestingly, after having my son, for me, I realized that I still really did love working. I loved my work a lot but I think I just needed to find more meaning in it if it was going to take up so many hours of my day and taking away from my child. Stephanie: Cool. So, then, what was the first step when it came to ... what really led you to creating Blueland? Was there an aha moment, was there something ... Tell me a little bit about what Blueland is maybe first and then how you came up with the idea. Sarah: Yeah. So, Blueland is a consumer products company, we are on a mission to eliminate single use plastic packaging. And we are starting with cleaning products. And so, the first set of products that we launched, when we launched about a year ago were a set of cleaning sprays and hand soap. And what was really unique about our products was that instead of selling you a bottle of liquid, these products are traditionally about 90% water, we've shrunk these products down to these tablets that are about the size of a quarter so that instead of buying a new plastic bottle every time, instead of paying for all this water which you already have at home, you can use one of our beautiful, reusable bottles and simply fill them up with warm water, drop in one of our tablets and it starts to bubble on its own, there's no shaking or stirring or weird chemistry required. And at the end of a few minutes, you have a full bottle of hand soap or cleaning spray. Stephanie: Yeah, that's cool. Sarah: And our cleaning sprays include a multi-surface cleaner, glass and mirror and a bathroom cleaner. Stephanie: Yeah, it remind me of a Alka-Seltzer, where you drop it in and then all of a sudden you have this big big bottle of cleaning solution. Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. And we stared there because we found that it was very intuitive for people even though it was something that had never been done before, it was brand new to market, it was something that people could see and quickly understand like, "Oh, that makes sense. That water and the tablet can make a bottle cleaner." And so, yeah, those are the products we started with. Happy to say last month we released our newest category which is the dish category. So, we launched a dish soap and dishwasher tablets. And in a similar vein, these products were created as part of a reusable, refillable system. So, upfront we sell you a permanent, forever container that you can refill with our refills that come packaged in paper based compostable packaging instead of plastic. Sarah: And so, our dish soap is actually a powder. But it's used very similarly to liquid, to the extent that you just sprinkle it directly onto your sponge, you add water and then you get a nice, rich foam. And yeah, our dishwasher tablets are naked, to the extent that they don't come individually wrapped in that plastic film that you'll find, with most all dishwasher packs. Stephanie: I've never really thought about, "Where does that film go? Does it just go down the drain? Sarah: Yeah. So, it's unfortunate because it- Stephanie: That's sad. Sarah: Yeah, it is sad. It is sad. Because I think the assumption for a lot of people, understandably, is that because it dissolves, that it just goes away. But unfortunately, because it is a synthetic petroleum based plastic film, the plastic molecules do still remain and enter our water systems and majority of it is then ultimately released into the oceans, rivers and anything else. Stephanie: So, when building this company, I read that you had reached out to over 50 manufacturers who all turned you down. And I wanted to hear- Sarah: Oh my goodness. Stephanie: I wanted to hear that story a bit, because I think most people maybe after 10 woudlve been like, "Well, it's not possible." Or, "We can't find how to contain these tablets." Or, "No one knows how to do it." Tell me a bit about what was that process like when starting to build the products out and trying to find people to partner with to make them? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think a big piece of being a entrepreneur, it's not rocket science, it's just being tenacious and having grit and not taking no for an answer and not assuming that because it's never been done, that means that it can't be done. And so, yeah, I think when we initially came up with this idea for Blueland, it was a crazy idea. And we had a lot of questions from people like, "Well, if it's so easy, why hasn't it been done?" And we're like, "Well, somebody has to be the first." Sarah: And so, yeah, initially, the natural place to start was to reach out to manufacturers, because typically, whether it's in the food space or the cleaning space or in the beauty space, a lot of these spaces are fashion. A company usually works with a contract manufacturer to actually make their products. And so, first choice was finding someone with the existing infrastructure that could just make this for us. Not surprising, in retrospect, hindsight's always 20/20, that no one could do this for us. We were reaching out to cleaning products manufacturers who were creating these products as liquids, and they were pretty much telling us how, "We don't know how to deal with solids, like we don't even have tableting machinery. And in fact, many of the ingredients that we buy for our liquid products actually come in liquid form. And so not even sure how we would then transform that into a dry product." Stephanie: But did you have an ingredient list? Were you like, "This is what I want in it?" Because that [crosstalk] seems hard to me of like, how would I make a multi-surface cleaner? Sarah: Exactly, exactly. So, in the beginning it's just this huge chicken or egg problem. So, we reached out to many manufacturers. And at that point it became also just less so in terms of ... we didn't necessarily think we were going to find an end-all, be-all solution with one of these calls but our hope was that we were going to get enough smart people in the space, who had been in the space for decades to talk to us in each of these conversations, we were going to glean a little bit more information. And if they couldn't do it, they would potentially know someone else who could. Whether it was a scientist ... because a lot of these contract manufacturers also work with contractor chemists, et cetera, they might know of an ingredient that they heard of that would be able to help us do this and so it really was just our form of Googling around, when Google could only get us so far on these niche topics that no one had a reason to read up about online. Sarah: But yeah, I think it became apparent through these conversations that someone was going to be able do just do this for us and everyone was recommending that we would need to come to them with a formula. And at that point felt like we hit another wall because my co-founder and I, we didn't have any chemists in our direct network. We had no idea where to even begin. We were both business people. And so, we, after asking our network, not really finding any leads to any reputable chemists, certainly no chemists with a cleaning products background, we just turned to LinkedIn. Stephanie: Ooh. Sarah: That was just a natural place to turn to, to be able to search for experts based on their experiences and at that point ended up going down another, very long rabbit hole of collecting ... We still have that spreadsheet today of hundreds of names of chemists that we found on LinkedIn and wrote up what their background was and ranked them and then just started reaching out to them, just [inaudible] reaching out to them on LinkedIn and just trying to get as many people as we could on the phone with us, like we were doing with the manufacturers. Stephanie: Did you get a good response rate from people or was it slow? Sarah: It was definitely slow. In LinkedIn there's all these limitations of if you're not connected, they may not readily see your message, also turns out a lot of chemists aren't actively checking their LinkedIn or messages. We also were just two random people that were messaging about this crazy idea that most recipients on the other side probably had like, "I don't know how to do what they want to do," or, "This idea seems crazy," or, "Why are they soliciting me for a job? Why would I leave my big company, well paid job to go do this?" Sarah: So yeah, I think suffice to say response rate wasn't great. But to some extent, it also was a numbers game, which is why we did reach out to so many people. And we were able to get a good number of people also just to get on the phone with us. And there definitely were a set of folks that we're so thankful to that were inspired by our mission and the audacity of at least the vision, and were willing to chat to see if they could be helpful. And that is ultimately also how we found our incredible head of R&D, Syed, it was through LinkedIn. Sarah: He was formerly at method, which is one of the world's largest non-toxic cleaning products companies. And prior to that, he had the perfect background because prior to cleaning products he was actually working in nutritional supplements. So, vitamins. So, he also had that hard, tabled-like form factor experience. Stephanie: That's amazing. So, how many tablets are you selling today? And how much plastic is it removing from the environment if someone chooses that versus a normal alternative? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For us today, I forget the latest numbers. But we've sold tablets in the millions- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: ... at this point, which is exciting because that means that our impact has also certainly been in the millions of plastic bottles eliminated. I think people are always surprised to hear that five billion plastic cleaning bottles are discarded each year, because there is so much focus on the water bottles and the coffee cups and the straws. Rightly so, because those numbers are even larger. But people are always surprised to hear how much of ian impact you can do by also just swapping out your cleaning products to a reusable solution. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Nice work. So, I'm guessing there has to be some kind of convincing and education factor that had to go on because a lot of customers at first, they all worry about maybe the anti-microbial factor and everyone's probably ... at least when I think about it I'm like, "Just throw some Lysol on it or bleach or something, that'll clean up anything." How do you go about convincing people that your product has the same benefits and even though it's natural, it'll still work? What does that education piece look like? Sarah: Yeah. So, that education piece is obviously so important and has become even more important during this period of time and COVID where people are very focused at keeping germs, bacterias and viruses at bay. We received, especially in March and April, that was the number one question that we were getting, especially around hand soap, actually. Where people were asking if our hand soap was antibacterial, whether our hand soap would kill COVID. And there we were very direct with the answer that ultimately, no, our hand soap is not antibacterial, it's not disinfecting, we cannot make the claim that it kills COVID. But it was an educational moment for us because at that point we could start the conversation with consumers that also are rooted in many studies that suggest that antibacterial soaps might actually be doing more harm than good, as well as if you look at the FDA, they've made official statements that say, "Regular, non-antibacterial soap is effective for the removal of bacteria and viruses," and that hand washing with plain, non-antibacterial soap is a great way to prevent the contraction and spread of illnesses. Sarah: And so, I think most people that hear that get it, and it will even link them to the FDA site on proper hand washing techniques and just to just reassure people this, "By no means are we looking to mislead or brainwash," but that it's just more the education of, you know, many times I think there's this perception you need a certain set of ingredients to get a certain job done. But- Stephanie: It's part of the marketing behind that too, for people who do have the antimicrobial stuff in it, they're pushing it so hard, "You need this," when I've read the same research about you actually don't really need that and you can still have very clean hands afterwards. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, it's been nice. It's been a nice period where we can also provide that education, because we are staunch supporters of non-toxic formulations. And so, any opportunity that we have to speak more to the efficacy of non-toxic products as well is always, we think, a good thing, not just for us but for the broader industry and for people on the planet. Stephanie: Yeah. So, how do you get people to find you? I'm thinking, if I'm going to the grocery store, that's maybe where I'll pick up a cleaning product when I run out or something. Are you in retail or were you planning on going into retail before COVID or are you staying strictly B to C? Or how are you thinking about that? Because it seems like it'd be hard to bring people over to buying online when maybe they've never thought to do that unless it's through maybe Amazon Prime or something, I don't know. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely one of the larger areas of friction that we recognize. To the extent that it's interesting when you think about it from a direct-to-consumer perspective or context because I definitely went into this eyes wide open, as to this is a category that's going to be harder to convince people to go to a separate, online destination to buy the products. Because in my past, I've been in shoes, I've been in apparel, I've been in beauty, and for all of those, especially something like shoes or swimwear, I would argue it's easier to convince someone for a one-off special purchase, like glasses, to go to a separate destination. Sarah: But to your point, with the cleaning products, this is a product that even early surveys have found that over 80% of people would prefer to just purchase these either in brick and mortar stores or just as part of the shopping that they're doing regularly anyways, whether it's weekly or biweekly grocery shopping, whether it's all on Amazon or at their local Target or Walmart. And I think that because of that, retail will definitely have to be an important part of our future. At the moment we are still a most all direct-to-consumer business. We have a handful of retailers that we sell through but still pretty minimal like we're with Goop or with West Elm, we're with Nordstrom. But I think- Stephanie: Those are some pretty good names. Sarah: Yeah. Those are definitely great names, but those are more I think we still view brand enhancing names and not necessarily the place where people are going to every week to traditionally buy these products. But I think it all comes back to focus and we also always knew that direct-to-consumer was going to be an important component of launching the brand. I think there's so many benefits, especially from a brand building and story telling perspective and explaining the mission and as a new brand to market just explaining who we are. And it's certainly an efficient enough channel to be able to get to early adopters and a set of consumers. But we do believe that if we are going to truly maximize our environmental impact and reach as many households as we can, then absolutely, we do need to, at one point, go into retail, physical retail and traditional retail. Stephanie: Cool, so, how do you get in front of the early adopters that you just mentioned? What kind of digital channels are you exploring? How are you doing your marketing? How are you finding customers and bringing them back? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Instagram has been an invaluable channel for us, especially on the organic side. I think we've had great success there. So, we've been live for probably just about a year now, we have over 170,000 followers on Instagram, all of it organic. We haven't really done any paid influence or promotion or anything. And I think it's really helped that because our mission is so integrated into our product offering, we are a mission driven company but that could mean different things for different companies. And for some companies that means it's a donation that they're making or a philanthropy in addition to whatever their core product or service is. And for us, our mission is just 100% integrated into the products that we sell. And that's given us the ability to, on social speak across a range of topics and speak more broadly about climate change and plastic pollution and tips on how we can each do our part. Sarah: And it's been so exciting to see how much that's resonated with the community on instagram and how quickly we've grown and it certainly is one of our largest channels. So, it's exciting to see that organic is something that that can work for a direct-to-consumer brand. Stephanie: Yeah, especially if you have that. Sustainability is a hot topic right now and like you said, if you're able to lean into those groups and people and tags and stuff, that opens up a whole new market where maybe other DTC companies who are just trying to sell their product and create brand new content, very different. So, it seems like that'd be a very helpful way to get new customers and access to an audience that maybe you wouldn't get access to otherwise if you weren't building a sustainable product. Sarah: Definitely, definitely, definitely. And it's also been a really great amplifier for word of mouth. I think we're fortunate that we have a product that people feel more inclined to share. So, everyday we get hundreds of people story-ing our products and their unboxings. And I think that's being driven by two things. One is just the mission I think that gives people a real reason or additional reason to want to share our product with their friends, because also saving the planet is something that we have to do together and they understand that the more they can raise awareness for things that help this planet, to their friends and community, the better place we'll all be in. But also, our products are very visual and experiential. The process of making the solutions, dropping the tablet, showing the tablets dissolved. Sarah: I was very worried, before we launched Blueland that that would be one of the largest hurdles to our success because undoubtedly it is more work for a consumer than just going out and picking up a bottle of solution. But I think it's hugely benefited us, especially in a world with video, Instagram stories, et cetera. Stephanie: So, when you're thinking of the health of Blueland, as you're building it, what kind of metrics are you looking at? Specifically maybe around your website and how to know if you're really doing well? Sarah: Yeah, it's definitely starting to get a lot more complicated now that we have so many more products. I think early days it was a lot simpler ... I would say early days it was a lot more straightforward given ... I think over 90% of our new customers were coming in through the same kit. They were all purchasing our four piece kit. And because it that initial basket was pretty uniform, it was much easier to track those cohorts over time and understand both acquisition behavior and success as well as retention behavior and success. I think now, as we look at our business, there's a lot more granularity. We've layered in more fragrances, we have at this point I think six different kit permutations that you could opt into. Sarah: There isn't a clear kit that all new customers opt into. We also have many people that are adding refill packs now to their kits and their first purchase, which changes the way we have to think about repeat curves and retention because a customer, if they're loading up a dozen multi-surface cleaning tablets in their first purchase, that's actually a great thing for business. It drives higher AOP, it's certainly also better for the environment because we're only shipping that package to them once and they may not need another package from us for a year, at least on the multi-surface cleaner side. But as you can imagine, we then need to look at our data in a much more nuanced way and cut in so many more different ways to really understand what is happening. But yeah, largely we are very focused on customer acquisition cost, the conversion on our site at every part of the funnel and then repeat basket size based on original basket size and channel. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. So, is there any best practices when all of a sudden you have a lot more data to work with and you're trying to actually see trends and parse out the noise. Is there anything that ... I'm assuming with your finance background, you're probably already very good at data. I also have a finance background and how long I had to be in sheets and looking at numbers all day was crazy. But, you do learn how to actually parse through large data sets. Like, what are some best practices that you say worked when it came to expanding your product catalog and actually trying to find trends and things to pay attention to? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I think the main thing is making sure that you're being thoughtful about the tests that you set up and setting them up in a way where the data will be valuable and also just taking into account what you're in or how much volume you're getting and so not trying to test too much all at one time. Because I think, and I bring up testing because sometimes it's hard to look at just the organic data that you're getting and make a determination as to what the value drivers are. So, for example, a question that we're trying to solve at the moment is that, are there better kits for people to start on? Do we have a preference as to, is the customer going to be more likely to stay with this? Is the customer more valuable if they buy into kit one very kit four? Sarah: And it's hard to look at the data that you have without setting up a clean test because there maybe other factors that have driven certain consumers to a kit one versus a kit four, that would then make their retention characteristics different. So, to do a very clean test, you would want ideally place randomize and drop off a set of consumers to either kit one or kit four and then see if those two cohorts perform differently over time. Sarah: But it's just making sure that we're being really thoughtful with the test, making sure that there's not other confounding variables that we're introducing, like for example making sure we're using the same ad creative to drop people off on kit one versus kit four, taking into account, again, how much traffic we expect to drive, how quickly that test will wrap up. Because certainly you could think, "Well, we're going to do this test for kit one through seven and do seven kits that we're landing on." But it may also just take forever to get any type of answer of statistical significance if we're dividing up our volume in that way. Sarah: Yeah, so things like that. But certainly something that we're thinking a lot about and is certainly far from straightforward. Stephanie: Yeah, tough problems to solve but I'm sure very informative and helpful for the future. So, I know we don't have too much longer but I did want to ask, we've been on a Shark Tank kick lately, we've been a couple of companies who've been on Shark Tank before you as well, and I wanted to hear- Sarah: Awesome. Stephanie: ... very high level, doesn't have to be a really long story, but how the experience was for you and how you dealt with the increase demand and your inventory and everything that came after being on the show? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a wild experience. It's always actually been facetious, half serious dream of mine to go on shark tank. So, it was really exciting. I think we over prepared every step of the way, which was right in terms of I don't say that negatively. But everything from leading up into the pitch, to making sure that we were ready from a site perspective. Our team still says today that we've never been so prepared for anything outside of Shark Tank. Stephanie: That's amazing. Sarah: So, it's something that we always point to, even with our new product launches or other things that we're trying to do. Because especially in startup world, you're rushing, it's never ... And we always point to, "Look how well Shark Tank went, because we spent the time, we were organized, we put the time in and it definitely pays off." Stephanie: What kind of things did you prepare? If you were to look back and say, "These two things were the best things that we did to prepare? Or what were some of the levers there that you were working on? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think before filming on that side, it really was all hands on deck, full team for that week leading up to our Shark Tank filming we pretty much focused on Shark Tank. Especially Syed, our head of R&D and myself were going to go into the tank. But even the rest of the team, we were required probably at least twice a day, for about an hour and a half each, so about three hours a day, whole team would be on just grilling us every which way, with the hardest questions they could throw, with the most inappropriate questions they could throw at us. Stephanie: That's fun. Sarah: It's fun. And it was, in the beginning it definitely was incredibly embarrassing because it was so hard. You're just like ... But after that, it really did prepare us for anything that could come our way in the tank. So, that was great. Including lots of, they just threw lots of mental math at us, which if anything, I don't know if they got us better at mental math that it got me better controlling my facial expression when I didn't know something. Stephanie: Yeah, or just delaying the response so long they forget what they asked, maybe? Sarah: Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, that was very valuable. And then from a site perspective, we really did everything we could possibly do to make sure that the site didn't come down. We spoke with a lot of other companies who had aired on Shark Tank to get their tips for what to do, and that was really helpful. Like the guys at Plated had a landing page ready. Because their site did go down. And so, they were very thankful that they did have a landing page ready to capture email addresses. And they were able to capture a ton of email addresses that way and then email the people when they were back up and running. So, we did that. Someone, another company had a really great idea to swap out all the videos or gifs we had running through the site. So, anything that was heavy that takes up a lot of speed or memory and just pairing back to replace all the videos on our site with images. Again, just to lighten up the site as much as we can. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, that definitely seems like some good due diligence. And you guys ended up getting a deal, right? Sarah: Yeah. We ended up getting a deal with Kevin O'Leary, who has been fantastic and really supportive and shockingly accessible. Stephanie: I was going to ask that, do you actually get time with him and is he actually helpful? Sarah: Yeah, yeah. We get a lot of- Stephanie: Give me all the gossip. Sarah: Yeah. We get a lot. Early days, I was like, "Is this too much time? I have other things to do." But we probably speak by phone or text once every two weeks or so. And definitely- Stephanie: Wow. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, and [crosstalk 00:52:50]- Stephanie: That's way more than I actually thought. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, in early stage I feel like I was talking to him multiple times a week, especially right coming off of Shark Tank when we had a lot of opportunities and he brought us onto QVC the week after Shark Tank aired. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Sarah: We've done multiple press interviews on TV together. It's been great. It's been really great. Stephanie: That's really cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing that story. So, now we're running out of time. Is there anything you wanted to cover before we jump into a quick lightning round? Sarah: No. I think we covered a lot of ground. Stephanie: All right. Cool, well, let's jump into the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud, this is where I will ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer with whatever comes to mind. Sarah: Okay, great. Stephanie: Are you ready, Sarah? Sarah: Yes, let's do it. Stephanie: All right. I'm going to start with the hardest question first because you've been in the industry for a while and I feel like you'll have a good answer to this, what one thing will the ... Oh, let me rephrase that. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Sarah: Ooh, in the next year. Oh, that one's harder. In the next year ... I would say packaging. It's a non-traditional answer. But I do feel like we're seeing the tides are shifting. I've just started to receive my first set of Amazon packages that for once are coming in paper based envelopes instead of plastic based envelopes. And I think that's going to send a great signal to the industry of, "We need to be a lot more thoughtful about with all this Ecommerce comes an incredible amount of packaging waste and consumers are becoming so much more knowledgeable and mindful about the waste that they're creating." And I think we'll start demanding this stuff of companies. Stephanie: Love that answer. What's up next on your reading list? Sarah: What's up next on my reading list? So, I've been incredibly inspired by the Black Lives movement, Black Lives Matter movement. And so, I have picked up a ton of books in that process. And my next one actually, by my bed right now is White Rage. Stephanie: Nice. And have you started it yet? Sarah: I have not started it yet. Stephanie: Cool, we'll have to circle back and let me know what you think of it. Sarah: Yes. Stephanie: If you were to build another company, which I feel like you will probably be doing in your lifetime, what would that next company be? Sarah: Oh, geez. That's so hard, that's so hard. that's so hard because I love the company I'm building at the moment. I always tell my co-founder that I don't think I'd want to sell this business because I don't know what I would work on next. It's just an incredible mix of product development, science and really doing things that I believe will make a huge difference in the world, as well as just educating people in areas outside of our products, which has been incredibly gratifying, just being able to talk about ... Email's probably a couple times a month and certainly social posts multiple times a week where we're just talking about things that have nothing to do with our products but just ways that you could cut out single use plastic from your day to day life. I do think that if I do move on past Blueland, it certainly is going to be something around the space as well in terms of where- Stephanie: Sustainability. Sarah: Sustainability, exactly, sustainability and climate change. Stephanie: Cool. It would seem sad to throw away all the knowledge. I've heard that quite often where a lot of times founders will just get eager to move onto the next thing and they don't always properly value all the knowledge they built up either from their current company they're at or what industry they're in. And so, yeah, that seems great. Sarah: Totally. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Sarah: So, next up on our Netflix queue is season two of The Politician. I know I'm a few weeks late, but I've actually heard that ... my husband and I loved season one and we heard season two there's actually a lot of focus on plastic pollution and there's actually a character who's really leading the charge on eliminating plastic from her and other day to day lifestyles, so, it'll be interesting to see their spin on that. Stephanie: Yeah. No, that sounds cool. Yeah, there's also a series, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's with Zac Efron, which at first I was like, "No, how is he going to do a series on big problems and sustainability and things like that?" It's actually quite interesting. They ... Sarah: Oh. Stephanie: I'm trying to think what it's called. Maybe producer, Hilary can look that up for me and put it in our notes here. But yeah, he went through, first he visited Iceland and was showing there all of the renewable energy that they generate for Iceland. And then episode two was talking about water and it went into France's water system and how they purify it in a much better way than a lot of places in the U.S. do it, so, another one to just put on your radar. But I don't know the name of it, I just know Zac Efron's hosting it. Sarah: No, that's great. I haven't seen him in anything since High School Musical so I'm actually- Stephanie: I know. Sarah: ... excited to see him all grown up. Stephanie: I know, when I saw him on there I was a little bit confused. I was like, "Wait, what?" And then I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're doing a good job. This is cool." Oh, let's see, Hillary put it in there. Down to Earth with Zac Efron. Pretty good one, very interesting. Sarah: Great. Great, great, great. I'm going to add that to my queue. Stephanie: All right. And then the last one that I've recently started asking, what is the number one tool or app or technology that you use day to day that's most helpful to you or that you either learn the most from or that you loved the most? Sarah: Yeah. It's got to be Instagram. I wish I had a more creative answer but ... Stephanie: No, I love Instagram. Sarah: ... I learn so much from others and from incredible resources and I think most recently I think the Black Lives Matter movement has been an eyeopening one for me in so many ways and I think in so many ways that we're trying to even as a company make sure that we are sustaining that moment, but really have been grateful for that platform as a source of education. Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, completely agree. All right, Sarah, well, it's been so much fun talking to you about this. Where can people find out more about you and Blueland? Sarah: Yeah, so, people can check out our products and learn more about our products at blueland.com. You can also follow us along @blueland. And I also post lifestyle tips frequently to my personal account, @spaiji. That's S-P-A-I-J-I. Stephanie: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show and we will definitely be following along in your journey. Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.  

Show Notes: In this episode, we discuss the legal mechanics of online sales platforms and CSA agreements as part of special coverage on COVID-19’s effects on farm businesses with Sarah Vaile, Farm Commons' Staff Attorney. Sarah: There’s no denying the magnitude of havoc that COVID-19 is wreaking across our globe, and on the farmers that we here at Farm Commons work hard to serve. We all know what’s going on. It goes without saying, but just to recap for anyone who’s been stuck under a rock or on Mars these past few weeks…The way we are able to access our food has drastically changed, and means farmers have to change the way they sell their farm products. Restaurants are mostly closed for dining in and grocery stores, while open, are now scary places to be in. The threat of catching the coronavirus looms large, and is on every shopper’s mind as they touch a head of broccoli or a carton of milk – who else has touched it, and are the dreaded COVID germs lurking there, ready to infect? Even farmers markets, potentially safer, being in the open air and carrying food handled only by known persons in the local community, feel questionable in this landscape of fear. Eva: With all the policy changes around public gatherings, retails operations, and social distancing, what are farmers to do with regards to sales? Sarah: I asked myself this question at the farmers market yesterday morning, as I looked around at all the beautiful mixed greens, kale and spinach, huckleberries, wild mushrooms, bunches of beets, bouquets of brightly colored flowers and sunflower sprouts that farmers spent so much time and energy and blood, sweat and tears to produce, and gather and grow and harvest. I felt so much sadness thinking that this might all go to waste as the usually bustling market was but a shadow of its former self, with only the most diehard amongst us showing up to make our purchases. Then I remembered, farmers are the most ingenious, inventive, resourceful people I know. This is proving to be true as we find our way through this strange new world of social distancing and masks, Purell and rubber gloves. The online farm sales platform Barn2Door says in its website article about tips for farm sales during the COVID-19 crisis that online farm sales have increased 10x and in some cases even 20x in the recent weeks. Barn2Door encourages farmers to keep up the online momentum, and do what they can to make it easy for customers, something they’ve become accustomed to thanks to Amazon, Netflix etc. Offer locations in town for customers to pick up farm products and better yet, deliver right to their door. Offer a “bundle” of farm products such as milk, bread and other staples, which are delivered on a weekly basis. Farmers are quickly learning how to shift their business models, and their responsiveness to the changing needs of customers, and an ever-changing situation, will keep them in business. Eva: At Farm Commons, we have great guides available for farmers who sell wholesale, providing guidance as they enter into contracts with grocery stores, restaurants, schools, governments and other such traditional, brick and mortar vendors. But, what about when farmers enter into contracts with online platforms such as Barn2Door, Farmingo or Harvie? Are the legal considerations of these sales platforms different than say, through a farmers market?  Sarah: The considerations are different because what these virtual sales platforms do is different than the brick and mortar stores. Like I said, what these platforms offer varies from company to company, but mostly they offer the ability for farmers to sell online – in other words, they provide a landing spot, online, where customers can see the farm products that are available, select what they want, and pay for it. This is very different from a traditional wholesale arrangement where, say, the grocery store, for example, actually takes possession of the broccoli and kale, physically handles it, decides where to place it within the display areas in the store, prices it and so on. Typically the online platform never actually takes physical possession of the farm products, and is not responsible for actually getting the products into the hands of the customers. What the online platform typically does, instead, is provide the software ingenuity that attempts to mimic, virtually, the experience of the customer going into the grocery store and doing the shopping in person. It replicates this experience, as best as possible, in an online setting. The platform also offers the means for the customers to purchase the products easily, through secure payment options. Something a lot of these sites do is the marketing, which involves using a whole set of tools to create a robust online and social media presence for their farm clients. They also handle a lot of the logistics and other administration of sales such as creating invoices and coordinating deliveries. Eva: What are key questions should farmers be asking when pursuing these new sales platforms?  Sarah: The activities involved in selling farm products online are different than brick-and-mortar and therefore the legal considerations are different too. Oregon State University’s Center for Small Farms and Community Food Systems has developed a helpful guide for selling local food during the COVID-19 crisis. It includes a list of online sales platforms and a list of questions to ask when contacting these different companies to determine if they are the right fit. These questions are also helpful in thinking through the legal considerations of these arrangements, which basically entail being clear about what I, the farmer, am agreeing to do for the vendor, and what the vendor is agreeing to do for me. You need to talk about money. One of the single most important issues to cover for sure. You need to get clarity around what it will cost you, the farmer, to use the platform. You’ll want to know what the fee structure is. Is it a one-time set up fee upfront and that’s it or do they take a percentage of every single sale? Is there a discount to you once you reach a certain sales volume maybe? Then you’ll also want to understand how customers pay for your products. Are credit and debit card fees charged to customers or is this something that you, the farmer, have to cover? What are those fees and when and how are they collected? Can customers pay by check or cash on delivery? Can customers pay with EBT or food stamps? Is there a way for you to offer customers discounts, coupons, and promotions? How long does it take for customer payments to deposit into your farm’s bank account? How is sales tax handled on the platform?  You also want to know if this a company you can trust. Do they have a lot of experience? How is their reputation? You might want to ask how long has their online sales platform has been in use and find out how many farmers do they currently serve. You’ll want to find out how easy it will be to get started, as this is, well, really an emergency situation that requires urgent attention – you need to get online and to your customers right now. You’ll want to find out the details around what it will really take to get started, and if there’s a wait because of the current increase in demand for online sales platform services. You also want to get a handle on the issue unique to farms and your farm products. What is the process for providing all the information to the vendor about what farm products you have for sale? How will you update your product list and pricing? Will you be able to set inventory limits so that you don’t oversell products? Is it possible to create pack lists directly from the sales platform? How about labels for your farm products? Does the platform provide any assistance around the logistics of delivering farm products?  Then there are the technology questions. How will the online sales platform integrate with your current website? How does the customer interface work? Is the platform easy to use on a Smartphone? Is it possible to integrate the platform with your existing accounting software? What kind of IT support does the company provide when all of this gets too confusing? Having an online sales platform has an added bonus of capturing sales data in one place, electronically. But, you might want to ask, How is my farm’s sales data used and/or shared? And, if this is something you might do only temporarily, What happens to my farm’s sales data if I stop using your platform?  Many of these questions can be found in demo videos or FAQs on the platform website, but others can only be answered through talking directly to someone from the company, and they usually are readily available to talk to you. Like most software programs and other online tools, they will ordinarily include a contract for you to sign, online. It can feel tedious to read through the whole contract, but like any contract, it’s a good idea to take the time to read it and understand what you are agreeing to. And always ask. If there’s something you don’t understand, do take the time to get an explanation. Even in these times of crisis, where it feels like you have no time to read the fine print. Eva: Many farms are also shifting to the CSA - community supported agriculture model, can you tell us more about that model? Sarah: The shift from selling in brick-and-mortar stores (or open air farmers markets) to selling farm products via online storefronts is all about making it easier for your customers to buy your products. Shifting to a CSA model is another way farms are shifting their sales models to make it easier for their customers in these COVID times. I’m sure most of you listening right now are familiar with the CSA model but for those who may not be, CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture. The basic framework of the community supported agriculture or CSA model is that customers sign up to become “members” of the farm’s CSA program, and these members pay money upfront, before the farming season even begins, to receive a share of farm products usually on a weekly basis throughout the farming season. Typically the farmers dole out their products into boxes for each of their members, who all receive the same kind and quantity of produce and other farm goods. The customers pick up their CSA box at a designated location, sometimes on the farm, sometimes at a drop point in town, at a designated time each week. Eva: Why do you think CSA is a good fit for farmers and consumers during this time of COVID-19? Sarah: This is a really workable model in ordinary times, and is attractive for both farmer and customer – the farmer gets money upfront during the lean times of winter and early spring, and can adequately plan what to grow based on CSA demand. The customer gets a steady supply of fresh, nutrient-packed local farm products throughout the season. The CSA model provides security for both farmer and customer. In the COVID times, this security is even more welcome. Plus, like the online storefront, the CSA model offers the ability to get farm fresh products without having to go to the store. It’s a win-win for everyone. Eva: What are important legal considerations farmers should pay attention to with CSAs? Sarah: There are some legal considerations with the CSA model that farmers should be aware of as they look to shift to this model. One is: How much risk are the customers taking on in this arrangement? Another great feature of the CSA model for the farmer is that in a typical CSA model, the customer shares the farmer’s risk. What I mean by that is that farming is a risky business. There’s no guarantee that what the farmer plants in the spring is going to make it to bountiful harvest time. Natural disasters happen. Disease sets in. Predators sometimes don’t mind fences. Your customers have paid a pretty penny in the beginning of the year to be able to share in the expected harvest later. But what if there’s no harvest to share in? In the traditional CSA model, the farmer says, “I’m so sorry but I used all your cash, dear member, to buy all the seed and pay my workers to plant the seeds and weed and water and who knew there’d be a tornado that wiped this all out. Thanks for investing in my farm and taking this risk. We’ll try again next year.” In that model, the member is out of luck – no cash, no food. Many people will be willing to enter into an arrangement like that, understanding that farming can be risky, but usually they will get their food in the end. They don’t mind investing in small-scaled, organic agriculture despite the fact that they may lose out in the short-term. However, if this is not communicated clearly to the CSA members, and the tornado happens and the members get no food, you can be certain that you will have some disgruntled members. So, to avoid this misunderstanding and bad result, farmers should be clear about how risk is being shared, and whether refunds will or will not be issued if there’s no farm product to share with members. Farmers can choose to share risk any way they wish – it just needs to be communicated clearly to members. Another consideration is around the legal right to farm product. This issue surfaces when CSA members don’t pick up their CSA box within the designated pick-up window. Say that pickup time is every Thursday in the park between 4-7pm. What happens when a member misses that window and their CSA share is left in the park after dark? Legally speaking, who does it belong to now? The answer is whoever the farmer and member agreed it belongs to. If the farmer never clearly communicates the answer to the member before this happens, this can lead to extreme frustration and disappointment for the customer. The member who realizes at 8pm that night that they didn’t get their box, may be very sad to learn that their box has been donated to the local food bank. Eva: What Farm Commons resources should farmers look to? Sarah: Farm Commons has a great resource for farmers looking to shift to the CSA model. On our website you can find a CSA Member Agreement Workbook. It contains a lot of helpful guidance to create a member agreement as well as sample agreements from simply online forms to more comprehensive contracts appropriate for a brochure or other written form.  Disclaimer: We are working hard and fast to get information together about COVID-19 related programs to share with the farming community as quickly and accurately as possible. Please note that things are rapidly shifting during this time and what was accurate info 2 days or 2 weeks ago may not be accurate tomorrow. As such, please look for our most recent updated information on all COVID-19 issues. As always, the above communications are delivered for educational purposes only and do not constitute the rendering of legal advice.

Summary In today’s episode, with the help of Sarah McLean, the owner of the McLean Meditation Institute, my personal teacher, and a woman with an unusual and exciting background, we will demystify meditation.  There are so many brands and types of meditation out there; it can be downright confusing. The important thing is to understand a bit, not make it too hard, and, most importantly, do not delay your practice! Without practice, you are missing all the amazing benefits of meditation.  Sarah’s joining us from Santa Barbara, California, and will tell you her journey to demystify meditation.  She will tell you tales of her time in the Army, in an ashram in India, and travels on a nine-month mountain bike trek through faraway lands. She will touch on many experiences from Transcendental Meditation, working with Deepak Chopra to ah-ha moments on a rooftop in Georgetown, DC. She did all the work, and we all benefit from her discoveries. On last week’s show, we talked about three things to make your meditation a slam dunk: desire, focus, and a nonjudgmental attitude (which I learned long ago from Sarah herself.) This episode is perfect timing because Sarah will take those three things and go deeper as she unravels the mysteries of meditation. My suggestion is to listen intently but listen gently, like the awareness of breath in meditation. You know you are breathing but get lost in the beauty of its simplicity. Do not control or change; just follow and enjoy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Podcast  Hey there, Alexa Z here! I am so excited and a little nervous because I have Sarah McLean, my meditation teacher, on the line. She is kind enough to take time out of her busy schedule to help me, help you demystify meditation, specifically the different types/brands of meditation.   I found Sarah after many years of meditating. I started meditating when I was 17 years old because I had terrible panic attacks. Meditation was a pill for me. I wish I could go back and start again; I would because now I know all the opportunities meditation has provided me, and I would have had a more consistent practice from the start.  Alexa: I want to welcome Sarah! Again, I am a little nervous and excited. This will be a fun back and forth conversation. I am also a bit jealous because I know you are in Santa Barbara, California, and the weather is a lot nicer than the rain, drizzle, and cold here in Annapolis, Maryland.   Sarah: Well, it is a bit like heaven on earth, sorry to make you jealous. Maybe we can practice Mudita, which is sympathetic joy, I hope you can feel happy for me, that I get to live in Santa Barbara after trying to convince my husband to move here for 17 years. It's great to be here, and Maryland is not too shabby.  Alexa: No, it isn't, and knowing that I can visit and take more classes at your new meditation center with you in Santa Barbara, makes me super happy. So let's, get right into it. Let's demystify meditation. The reason why this came to mind is that my students, clients, and even strangers come to me and say they have been studying meditation but have not started their practice. Typically, they say they are waiting for a particular time in there life to begin meditating or that they need to continue to learn about meditation before starting a practice. Sarah, what do you think about all of this. Why is it so confusing? Sarah: There are so many different types, categories of meditation  Uses Formal and informal Religious, historical origin Different names in other languages Brand new/Brand names I'll share a little bit about my story and how I got into meditation. More importantly, how I realized I did not know anything about meditation.   Alexa: Oh, that's perfect! Sarah: When I was younger, I was in the military. I wanted to be a spy, but that didn't work out. I wanted to understand the mysteries of life. I did not become a spy; instead, I became a behavioral specialist; that's when I started to learn the mysteries of the mind. I worked with Soldiers who suffered from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders (PTSD). Back then, we used medication versus meditation. Luckily for me, I was introduced to a body awareness practice. I was sitting outside of a psychiatric hospital, where, unfortunately, that's where many Soldiers who were really suffering would end up. Our whole platoon was sitting out on the lawn when one of the male nurses introduced me to a body scan. He had us all laydown, and he guided us from our head to our toes, allowing us to relax. It was only about 10 minutes. In the end, I realized that I worked with very stressed Soldiers, and I didn't even realize the amount of stress I was carrying. That moment planted a seed in me. After I got out of the Army, I looked into contemplative practices. I spent a lot of time exploring world traditions, looking for the secrets of life. I was on my mountain bike for about nine months and bicycled half-way around the world. I kept looking for the answers. I found it when I was sitting in my room in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. I was on the top of a three-story of a brownstone, learning to meditate using a silent mantra practice, through Transcendental Meditation (TM). Again, there was a contrast on how I felt before I learned, and after I silently repeated a mantra that I had no idea what it meant. It was another "ah-ha" moment. A few months after that, I moved to a TM community. I answered the phones and discussed mind, body, health. I was working with Deepak Chopra, who, at the time, no one was familiar with. People were looking for alternative practices and alternative healing. Many people would seek our help because of health reasons such as chemotherapy didn't work, diagnosed with Parkinson's, or depressed. I would ask all who called, "do you meditate?" They would answer with, yes, while I am watching TV, driving to work, or in the shower. I would have to convince them all to learn to meditate because meditation was required to be in the TM community. In 1990, meditation was not a "buzz word." No one talked about mindfulness. People would come to the community, and I would teach them about meditation. Unfortunately, at the time, I thought there was only one way to meditate. Though I had that great experience with the body scan, I was still "drinking the kool-aid" on the brand name of TM. So even when someone told me they were Upasana, insight, or mindfulness, or a different type of meditation, I wouldn't give it much credit.   Alexa: I have known you for a long time, and I have heard all your stories, but it is so fun to listen to it in order; it's starting to make so much sense to me. I have a lot of military people in this town, and a lot of military people listen to my podcast. I want everyone to take note that Sarah started her journey with meditation in the Army. How long ago was that? Sarah: It was 1980/1981. It was only done by a rouge male nurse, who felt the need to take us aside and try the body awareness practice. Meditation was not mandated to be a part of our training.   Alexa: It still isn't mandated, but it is interesting that you initially thought you would become a spy, you ended up learning about body scans. A lot of meditators feel that we can't be a meditator unless I do what Sarah does, go all those places, learn all those things. You taught me through your experiences that I can learn, and I don't have to live in an ashram for years. I am really grateful for that! Sarah: You are welcome! Alexa: Thank you for doing all the learning for all of us.  Sarah: I wasn't the mainstream kind of gal, I didn't want just to get married and have kids, get a job, and retire. My motivation in life was, can I find out the mysteries of this existence? What is it that animates all of creation? I know I am a little weird, but that was what was right for me.   I have to fast-forward after working and being in the TM organization for years. I won't go into the whole story, as you can google it. Deepak Chopra and I got kicked out of TM. Getting kicked out of an organization tells me one thing, that is that it is exclusive, not inclusive. How can you get kicked out of a meditation organization?! Well, some ways are to change your guru, changing your job, or changes that some tell you not to, but you do it anyway. I am in good company, so is Deepak Chopra. There is also Ravi Shankar, who does the Art of Living program. Many have been "kicked out" of TM. That was a warning for me, how can TM be a great organization? TM practice is a great practice. After I left the TM organization, I went to California with Deepak in 1992/1993. We opened up a health center. He came up with his practice, which was also a silent practice that is not TM. Deepak's practice is called Primordial Sound Meditation. I started to learn that there are a variety of practices available and they all work. You can stare at the sky, a fire, etc. to use as your object of meditation.  There are so many types of meditation.  Zen Buddist Tradition paying attention to your breath counting your breath asking yourself questions that stopped the mind walking meditation imagination meditation Scientists are researching meditation. I have been a research subject in a few studies. Scientists have a hard time differentiating the different types of meditation. Here are a few ways that I categorize mediation: Focus awareness/concentration meditation Open awareness meditation- Advanced practices Guided meditation Imagery meditation When I was in India, I learned more about meditation.   Guru Eat, pray, love Chanting Devotion After India, I moved into a Zen Buddist Monastery. I wanted to give up the whole notion of devotion and move into emptiness.   I want to share the basics of meditation. You went into meditation because you wanted to get rid of your anxiety. I went into meditation because I had a very stressful childhood, and I also suffered from panic attacks. I wanted to feel that life mattered, I mattered, and a deep sense of love.   There are three basic ingredients to any type of meditation.  [Sarah discusses in detail the below] Your intention Attention What you are paying attention to: something you hear sound-based meditation something you see visual-based meditation something you sense feeling/emotion moving stillness Alexa: My listeners might still be a little unsure of where to start. When you talked about focused awareness and open awareness; I compare it to a camera, am I zooming in or am taking a wide-angled, panorama picture. I want to go back to the three things that you taught me, going back to desire, non-judgemental attitude, and focus. Sarah, I started feeling over-whelmed when I didn't have a focus. When I read your book, Soul-centered: Transform your life in 8 weeks with meditation, before knowing you, you helped me simplify meditation. Thank God, science now says we have a body, a mind, and an energy system, and neuroplasticity does exist. Sarah, I am sure you will agree with me, when science proved that neuroplasticity exists, that's when meditation became popular. Sarah, what are your thoughts? Sarah: Meditation is not difficult, but you do have to set yourself up to succeed. When I was writing that book, I tried to deconstruct meditation. First off, you have to recognize that many people will say that you have to clear your mind to meditate. The minute I close my eyes, my default neuro network comes in, I start a monologue with myself, and I can't clear my mind. Instead of clearing your mind, you should interrupt the constant activity of the mind by paying attention to a particular object. Yoga is about the union of subject, object.  Subject: You, your consciousness Object: could be: Breath Body movement Behavior Saint Quality of a Saint When I was writing that book, it was a ten-week program. Then this study came out about neuroplasticity, neuro meaning nervous system and the brain, and plasticity meaning plastic or flexibility. In 2012, neuroplasticity studies were showing that with meditation, the thickening of the cortex can happen. Meaning you develop new neuro-pathways, new connections that help you to navigate the world more skillfully. Meditation also changes other parts of your brain. Your amygdala, the reactivity center of the brain, lessens its dominance, so you become much more responsive as the executive function of the neocortex start to become more dominant. This all results in the amygdala, "fight or flight" response becomes less apparent. You gain space between stimulus and response. This shows up in meditation as a state, and overtime shows up as traits in the brain.   Meditation is a practice. Find the one you like. I used to be very militant due to my time in the military, and I used to think there is only one way to meditate. So, find a practice you like and get in a routine. The best thing to do is to start meditating as soon as you get up in the morning.   There are many studies on the different practices of meditation and their benefits.  mindfulness practice - keeps you more engaged Loving-kindness, gratitude practices - cultivate emotions transcending mental activity - direct experience of YOU Alexa: If I decided that all this information makes sense and I want to start meditation when I get up tomorrow morning, what should I do? Sarah:  Gather yourself, welcoming everything, and resisting nothing.  Start with 1-2 minutes of mindfulness. Sit down Close your eyes Set yourself up  Turn your phone off Turn music off  Sit up Close your eye or gaze towards your hands/floor Pay attention/observe environment and body Be in the being and not in the doing Then, Body Scan Choose a focus Start with breath awareness Relaxation Response Refocus It's the nature of your mind to think. Your job is to bring your mind back to your focus.  [Meditation Practice] It does not matter how many times you have to refocus, be kind to yourself, and let go of expectations.   Lastly, be sure to determine how long you are going to meditate.  Alexa: I would like to wrap up by saying, yes, there are many types of meditation, but don't worry about it and don't feel like you have to learn them all. What Sarah and I say, "just get up and start meditating." The best thing about research is that you are your own best individual subject. Pick a practice, stick with it, and enjoy it. I used the definition of meditation that comes straight from Sarah, "meditation is a practice, it's old, it's new, it's modern, it's ancient, it's all of those things, but it is a training." Links: Sarah McLean Bio Sarah McLean Books Alexa Z Meditates      

Often when we are trying to align ourselves with how we are going to bring our child home, we can become lost and frustrated. There is no denying that trusting the process is difficult, but when you allow yourself to open up and be fully committed to hearing God in whatever form that may be, you can let his will flow over you and let Him answer your prayers. Sarah Hinze is a life coach who uses visualization and hypnotherapy to help women become whole and heal. Whether you are a mother, expectant mother or feel a deep connection to a soul who hasn't arrived yet, Sarah and I provide insight into how to ensure your heart is open and in the right place. Sarah shares some resources you can use to explore if this is the correct path, how to honor the women who give their gifts to other women's children, and how to begin looking at various options to bring your children into the physical world. If things don't look as though you imagined it doesn't mean they aren’t still coming from God. By embracing the physical manifestation of God in real life, the remembrances of your pre-mortal existence and announcing dreams through yourself and others, Sarah helps create connections between waiting souls and parents. Have you read any of Sarah’s work after experiencing the trials expressed in this episode? Let us know how she helped you in the comments.   In This Episode Why Sarah knew that Cherie’s son would come in another way Experiencing and seeing the Holy Spirit in miscarriage experiences Submitting to God’s plan for your life to enrich you and the life of your family Giving collective permission to honor the gifts of women Listening to the voice and passion within you that is beating   Quotes “These children, these unborn children, these children in our wombs are incredibly more intelligent than we can comprehend.” (19:44) - Sarah “It was almost like we had this agreement as spirits that we were going to have this shared experience of sacrifice, tears, longing, love, and sharing the soul of this beautiful boy.” (24:53) - Cherie “God works in mysterious ways. I have often thought that we think God will come in through the front door, but sometimes He comes through the back door and we have to be ready for that too.” (30:23) - Sarah "When you lose all hope and your heart is in the right place but you are just so distraught around ‘what’s the point’, that is typically when an angel can show up." (34:00) - Cherie “There is a crisis now in Heaven, there are children that are trying to come but can't get here. So being open to how they can come is an important part of our day I think.” (39:19) - Sarah "There is now this feeling of 'Okay, we don't have to go into spiritual fight or flight, we are together, we made it.' And now it becomes about how do we love, how do we really learn to love?" (41:35) - Cherie “We are in a time where women, their voices, their talents their gifts, are needed and accepted in this world, more than we have ever been accepted.” (48:54) - Sarah   Links Find Sarah Hinze online Follow Sarah on Facebook Sarah Hinze Complete Book Catalog The Two Who Are Missing Blog Post   Check out the full episode page here Find Cherie online Follow Cherie on Facebook

Sarah Quarantotto: The Story of Miriam's House - Ending the Cycle of Homelessness Sarah Quarantotto joined Miriam's House in 2010, after working for a number of years in the Lynchburg area with local social service and mental health agencies.  She has immensely appreciated the opportunity to lead an organization with such a rich history of empowering families and individuals made vulnerable by homelessness.  She has a Bachelor of Science in Psychology and a Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University.  When not working to end homelessness, Sarah is spending time with her husband, Jeremiah, and their two children exploring the outdoors and beauty of Central Virginia. Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Welcome to today's Nonprofit Exchange. Today we are going to tell a story of a very successful nonprofit, and it happens to be in the city where I live, Lynchburg, Virginia. Russell, how is it out in Denver today? Russell Dennis: Nice and toasty. Beautiful blue skies. It's been clouding over very quickly in the afternoons. We are approaching three figures out here. It's been good because my tan will start to pop. Hugh: We are in the mountains of western central Virginia, and it is a lovely day. Overcast and threatening to rain. We have the old mountains here, the ones that have been rained on and smoothed off. You have those young mountains. We have been on an adventure interviewing some really interesting people. I just met Sarah Quarantotto. Did I say that right? Sarah Quarantotto: Yeah. Yep. Hugh: Just met Sarah last week at my rotary meeting, where she was presenting. I was really impressed with the story about this nonprofit she is the executive director for. I asked her to come on and tell the story from the leader standpoint. Where was the organization? Where is it now? Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself and what your passion was for wanting to do this job. Sarah: My name is Sarah Quarantotto, and I am the executive director of Miriam's House. I have been a social worker here in central Virginia for about 15 years. After finishing my Master's in Social Work, I came to work at Miriam's House as the Clinical Director. I really had the opportunity to be on the front lines working with homeless individuals. Two years after that, I was offered the Executive Director job, which I was really honored to accept. Hugh: Tell us about why you accepted it. Sarah: When you are working in an organization with such an incredible impact, the leadership really matters. When there was a change in leadership and an opportunity to become that leader, I thought it was a really great opportunity to continue the good work of Miriam's House, but also to grow and expand that work. I was really happy to be able to have that opportunity. Hugh: Our audience for this podcast and this video is typically people like you, people sitting in the chair of leading an organization. It might be a ministry. It might be a community-based charity, a membership-based charity, a cause-based charity. They are all kinds of different operations. The anchor to it is leaders make things happen. I am going to ask you a couple of questions. You have a background in social work and you are doing leadership. Those are different skillsets. Before you do the question, talk about the impact. You mentioned the impact on the homeless. Where was this organization when you started? Where is it now? You gave some statistics last week in your presentation that were really important. Sarah: Miriam's House, when I first came here, we operated a transitional housing program. For 20 years, we had a program on site that provided housing for 11 households at a time. The great thing about homeless response nationally is that the concept of programs responding to homelessness have expanded beyond facilities, beyond four walls of a facility, and really into the community. By looking at different models of intervention, we have been able to grow astronomically. Back in 2008, pre-recession, we served 33 individuals. This year, we are slated to serve over 300. That is a 900% increase. That meant we had to think outside the box and think about new ways and accept best practices that were happening in other communities, even though they had not occurred here in Lynchburg. Hugh: You spoke of different levels of service. What do those look like? What is the impact? You also spoke about how people don't return to homelessness. Talk about the impact and the different levels, will you? Sarah: Yeah. I think back in the ‘90s and early 2000s, the homeless response provided through Miriam's House and many organizations was a one-size-fits-all approach. Every person or household that became homeless was given the same level of support and resources. What we have realized is that that is really unnecessary. Everyone's story is different. Their circumstances are different. Instead of doing a one-size-fits-all approach, we triage our resources. We have intensive services that do occur on-site here to minimal or soft-touch resources, where someone just needs assistance with connecting with a landlord that has reasonable rents and being that liaison between that homeless household and that landlord to get them back into housing. It is the gamut of homeless response that we can do: everything from providing long-term housing with long-term case management to a short-term intervention. Hugh: The impact of the work. You said many of the statistics. 96% and 100%. I was really paying attention. Russell, I hope you are impressed. People that are placed and people that don't return to homeless situations. Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So last year, 96% of the households we served moved out of homelessness and into safe, affordable housing in the community. That's great. That's our ultimate measure of success. We want to end people's homeless episode in a way that you do that is to get them back into housing. We are concerned about long-term success. We don't want folks to return to homelessness a year or two years after housing. We also track that data. Last year, we had 100% success in no household recidivating over a span of two years' prior. That was really exciting because it means what we are doing is successful in the short-term of ending someone's homelessness and in the long-term in that they are not returning to homelessness. That is really exciting. Hugh: There is a process piece of finding a house and getting into it. There is an emotional piece that helps people have an attitude of self-sufficiency. How do you work with people in that realm, helping them learn what they need to learn to be able to stay where they are? Sarah: Our approach is really about empowerment. Rather than having punitive services where we are having our case managers tell people what it is they need to do, we really meet with them to identify what it is they want to accomplish or how perhaps their homeless episode was impacted by something previous that we can mitigate by an intervention. For example, if someone was homeless because they had untreated depression and were unable to go to work because of that depression, which then led to them losing their apartment and having to go to a homeless shelter, we can work with that individual to identify that, get them into treatment, see a therapist or get on medication so that homeless episode can be prevented in the future. Working with each household to identify what it is that you need to be stably housed and not return to homelessness. We have flexible resources. We have a once-a-month after-care support group that meets where households can come back and receive peer support about anything from tenant rights and responsibilities to a resource in the community, back-to-school supplies or something like that. That is a great resource to help people stay connected. We also offer ongoing case management. In their home at the beginning, as soon as they first move into housing, because that is a fragile time, so working with them in the home to make sure they have what they need, furniture and clothing, that they understand their new community, that they have the bus routes. Long-term, that might be a phone call here and there, touching base and seeing how they are doing. Tailoring that response to allow households to recognize they are not alone, there is a resource out there, we really want them to be successful in the long term. That success is outlined by them and their own goals. We are here to support them in that. Hugh: People can find you at MiriamsHouseProgram.org. Give us some of the statistics. Your cost per client served has gone down dramatically over the years. Your successful rate of people who have stayed in a home. Give us some of those numbers. Those are incredible. The impact you are having on people's lives. Sarah: Pre-recession, back in 2008, we were serving a homeless person at a cost of about $16,000 per person. Now, that is almost down to $2,000. That is really because we tailor the response appropriately. Certainly more expensive responses, longer-term supports are there for those who have had high barriers to housing, who have long episodes of homelessness. For those who really need a soft touch, that's what we provide, which means we have more funds available to serve more households. Our growth, and the fact that we expanded so significantly, is not because our budget has increased tremendously; it's because we are being a lot smarter with our resources that we have, recognizing that not every household needs an intensive resource. Hugh: Love it. Russ is going to have some good questions. He is taking this in. I want to move us. We have established how successful Miriam's House in the work that you are doing in the city in Virginia that has the highest poverty rate in the whole commonwealth. 24.5% in Lynchburg. The work you are doing is one of many charities that is reaching out to help people regain power in their lives and help them have a better future. I was so impressed with your report, how you gave it and the work you are doing. You just do it. You don't toot your horn or something. You just do it. I was quite impressed. You have a degree in social work. Sarah: That's right. Hugh: And you're leading an organization. Those are two different skillsets. When you first came to work, you were the social worker, I'm guessing. Now, that is still a skillset you have; however, putting on the leader mantle is a different skillset. Talk about that journey. How did you equip yourself for this leadership position that you're in? Sarah: The great thing about social work as a discipline is that there is an understanding of a micro track, which is clinical in nature and talking more directly working with service individuals, but there is a macro track. Many individuals really think that social work is more about micro, one-on-one individual track. But actually there is this great macro track that talks about and educates on organizational change and system change and advocacy and capacity-building for different systems or models of care and community wealth-building or changing. The great thing about social work is that both of those aspects are part of the education. I had some great experience or some education in that macro piece, which is about making significant impacts. Even things such as data, which has become more important in the social work realm and social services organizations and human services organizations, to measure outcomes. Back in the day, it was sort of, I am going to do this intervention because it feels right to me. I like it. It seems like a good approach. And now, that's flipped to what does the data show? Is this effective? Is this working? What are your actual outcomes? That has been appealing to me in that I was able to work individually with people and see an individual outcome. Someone who was no longer sleeping on the street, was able to have an apartment, was able to get a job. That's really cool. In a leadership position, I am able to see how that translates into a big picture. I can see we have a 63% reduction in family homelessness in our community over the course of a year. That's incredible. Even though that results in individual families who I may no longer know, I know that that makes a difference. Going from a direct service position to more of a leadership position, I am able to bring those personal experiences into leadership to know that the work we do to improve big-picture design and implementation means that more and more families and more homeless households are being impacted. I still have those images of those individuals and families in my head even though I am no longer working directly with them in their home or in a shelter. Hugh: That's an effective model. You know how it works because you worked there. Supervising that and empowering that, you have first-hand knowledge of that space. That's good. What were your challenges in coming up to speed and letting go of doing and empowering others to do? What were your challenges in that? Sarah: I think there is the piece of having to let go of some of that first-hand experience or interaction with clients. There is a part of having to trust the people who are now in those positions to continue that great work. That involves not only are we an organization dedicated to empowering our clients, but we also want to be dedicated to empowering our employees. A lot of that means I trust them to do the work they have set out to do. Supporting them, training them, but ultimately believing they are going to continue that mission of ending homelessness in the framework we have created at Miriam's House, which is one of empowerment and support for our clients. Hugh: That's awesome. I am going to shut up for a minute and let my co-host- He has been over here thinking of questions for you. He comes from a position of having been inside of a nonprofit doing funds development, and now he supports nonprofit leaders all over the place, like I do. Russell, do you have some questions for our guest today? Russell: I'd like to welcome you and thank you for coming in and sharing your experience with us. It's very critical to give people in a stable place because then you can start to solve the other problems they have. The formula that you're working by is perfect for what needs to be done. Homelessness is a tough issue. I have found myself in a coalition. I am in several coalitions that focus on homelessness here. Our biggest challenge is affordable housing. To get back to the work you are doing, having been on the ground, effective leaders or transformational leaders, as Hugh defines them, are people who know all of their audiences, and that includes the people they serve. Transformational leaders build good leaders around them. When everybody understands how what they do fits into the big picture, and they see those results, they get a broader understanding of what they are doing, and it works better. Just looking at the work you do and how you approach serving people and the people that you partner with, the collaboration piece is something you didn't address that I love about what you're doing. It's an all-hands-on-deck kind of thing when you are dealing with something like homelessness. It's not the dirty old guy in a raincoat you're talking about. We're talking about families here. It's very important to do that. I know that homelessness, as it is measured all over the place, greatly understates what is there. Another thing about what you're doing is that you are doing it right. You're probably not serving as many people. Nonprofit leaders by and large do not have enough money and do not serve enough people for where they want to see people go in the community, in the direction they wanted to go in. But it is the effectiveness and efficiency with which you serve the people that you have. There are real stories behind the numbers that jump out so that people see that impact. That is remarkable. I commend you for that. It's great. Being able to make that shift form social worker to leader of the organization is difficult because a lot of people that are in that field have a lot of difficulty talking about the value they bring. It is about value. You're working in partnerships to transition people from where they are. In thinking about this, when you were asked to be the leader of this organization, what are the things you were doing- I know you probably did this as they interviewed you. What were the things that you were doing that they thought made you right to take leadership of the organization? Sarah: Taking the mission of the organization, which is of course to end homelessness, and expanding it beyond what the organization had always done. Leading the programs and making recommendations for new ways to still fulfill that mission of ending homelessness, but not being so tied to a certain program type in order to do that, I think the board recognized that, especially after the recession, when nonprofits either had the same resources or fewer resources, they realized that was something they wanted to embrace, which was exciting to me. Nobody wants to be the leader of an organization that is stagnant and stays the same and is not interested in adapting or growing. That was mutually exciting for the board and myself to recognize that we wanted to take Miriam's House in a different and better way, but still further that mission of ending homelessness and not leaving that behind. Russell: It's keeping your eye on the prize. That involves having what I call some tough conversations in the boardroom. Think of a time when you had a really tough conversation in the boardroom that really kicked you up to a new level. Are there some points where you had to have some tough conversations about a new approach or a specific program that was difficult, but once you had that conversation and navigated that, it took you to another level? Sarah: Back in the ‘90s, when Miriam's House was formed, we served homeless families, but we defined those families as single moms with children. What we have done over the last several years is I have had to talk with the board about changing that family definition to include any household with children under the age of 18, whether that's a grandma raising a grandchild, a single dad raising his two children, or two moms with their children. I think that was tough. A lot of individuals were really tied to the fact that Miriam's House supported single moms that were homeless. Having to educate them that families sometimes look different. As an organization, we don't want any child to be homeless, regardless of their family composition. Changing that definition of family to include any household with children was a big step for our board and for our organization because now, it allows us to serve every homeless family in our community as opposed to being narrow in our definition. Russell: One thing I have discovered in joining these coalitions here in Colorado in the Denver metro area is there is a segment of the population that have been coined as “housing unstable.” These are people who are working full-time, not necessarily eligible for services. Some may be on the verge or a paycheck away from homelessness. Others are couch surfing. They are working full-time or a combination of jobs to constitute full-time. They still don't have enough resources to provide themselves with stable housing. We also have a segment of kids who are in the high schools who are homeless. They couch surf and come to school. Are you finding you have those populations in Lynchburg? If there are a significant number of them, what are the steps you have taken at Miriam's House to help them? Sarah: As a community, we have noticed a growing trend of youth homelessness. That is what you mentioned. That is the unaccompanied, 18-24, many of them have aged out of foster care or an institution setting, and don't have that family support to make that next step into adulthood. Next month, we are going to be expanding one of our programs, Community First, which is a rapid re-housing program for families, and we are also going to be serving unaccompanied youth with that program. That is what happened. We noticed that trend. There is a growing population. There is not an organization in Lynchburg that targets homeless youth, and so we are going to become that, which I think is really exciting. It's a vulnerable population with some different challenges than the homeless families we are serving, but certainly real needs. We are excited to be serving that population in a few days. Russell: That's wonderful that you came up with the resources and vision to do that. We are experiencing a lot of trouble. Our real estate market in the Denver metro area and throughout Colorado have hopped rent prices very high. We just had our very last homeless shelter that was in Jefferson County close down two weeks ago. There are no homeless shelters in Jefferson County, which has about 655,000 people. The shelter model is what we leaned on before, but it doesn't really lend itself to long-term solutions. It's basic Maslow. When people are worried about how to keep dry and eat, they can't be concerned with higher pursuits. What is your feeling about affordable housing in Lynchburg? How are you incorporating that into your approach? Do you think the shelter model is dead? Sarah: That is two different things. What you are mentioning is the housing-first model. It stemmed in the last 10 years from the recession and recognizing we don't have enough shelters or facilities to address homelessness. Those facilities often had poor outcomes. There was a lot of revolving door and people not necessarily ending their homelessness through going to a shelter, but prolonging it. There is a place for a brief short-term shelter, a crisis-oriented shelter that is short-term, I've lost my house and I need to go somewhere for a couple days. What we do here in Lynchburg and what many communities around the country are doing is then quickly working with that household to find housing, whether that's affordable housing in the community, subsidized housing, or assistance through rapid re-housing. There certainly is a place for shelter, but I don't think that place is a 30/60/90-day stay without an intervention. What our community does is we have set benchmarks. After two days of staying in a homeless shelter, a case manager needs to be meeting with that household, working on a housing plan, figuring out if they are going to need additional resources or do they just need support to get back into housing? That goes into your next point about affordable housing. If we want to get people out of shelter quickly, the way to do that is by having an affordable housing stock. Many of these individuals are still going to be poor. They either are already working and working a low-wage job, or we are helping them get employment, but that employment is probably not going to be the median income for our community or for any community. Affordable housing continues to be a problem for our community and many others, not just the quantity of affordable housing, but the quality, too. One of the biggest issues for our community is the condensed areas of affordable housing. When you have that only located in low-income neighborhoods, it does not provide opportunities for households to get out of poverty and to better themselves. As a community, I am part of a housing collaborative working to increase affordable housing, not just the quantity, but also the location of that housing, recognizing that having affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods will provide much more opportunity for those formerly homeless households than if they were going right from a shelter back into a poor neighborhood. Russell: There are all sorts of auxiliary issues like access to transportation. Of course, our transit district is at best a light rail. I am a light rail rider, but it's not for my livelihood. It's for my convenience. The people in the poorer neighborhoods do not have good access to that light rail. When you talk about condensing people in an affordable project, there has been a number of them built in various areas of the city where people who came in. We had men and women from the Second Chance Center, who are people who experienced incarceration, trying to recreate their lives. They secured funds to build something. There is a big community meeting, not in my neighborhood. One of the things that Close to Home is doing is reaching out to people to talk about homelessness and what it looks like because there is the old guy with the bottle of wine and the paper bag type of image who is just a wino, man under the bridge. That is the image people have about homelessness. A lot of homeless people look like you and I. You would never know in a thousand years that they are homeless. Trying to talk with people about that. Talk about some of the ways you folks have tried to explain what homelessness is and educate the community in order to get more support for what you're doing. Sarah: I think a lot of that is creating that empathy. It's allowing individuals who don't interact with people experiencing homelessness to understand some stories or some faces. We did a photograph exhibit several years ago, “Faces of Homelessness.” It was very simple. It was showing the faces of the men, women, and children in our community experiencing homelessness. They were not the faces that community members expected. You're right. It's not the grizzly old man who has been on the streets for 30 years. Certainly, there are a handful of individuals like that, but by and large, it's the five-year-old kid whose mom was a victim of domestic violence, and they had to flee their home. Or it was the 50-year-old woman who has worked a low-wage job her entire life and was laid off because the company moved, so she became homeless. Creating that empathy through photos and stories is an important piece of what we do. We have a large community luncheon every year with almost 500 attendees, and having a client speaker at that is always the most popular part of the event, better than the raffles. Being able to see someone face-to-face who has experienced homelessness, to realize they are just like you or I, but they had a crisis occur, whether that crisis was a house fire or domestic violence or the loss of a job, that crisis hit, they did not have the resources to sustain that, and they became homeless. Recognizing that it's not always as easy as saying it's someone's fault, that they drank too much, or they were too lazy to go to work, understanding that's not what causes homelessness. Crises can occur to any household. If the household does not have the resources to weather that storm, they will become homeless. Having those different events and opportunities to share that story really creates that empathy. The incredible thing is that the Lynchburg community is so supportive of the work we do. Our expansion and being able to add new populations and being able to continue our work is because they have that empathy and they understand that this is their community. They do not want people sleeping outdoors or on park benches. That is inhumane. Hugh: I am going to weigh in because you mentioned the stereotypical old guy. Russell: Hmm, wonder where that comes from. Hugh: I don't know where that comes from. Sarah, this is remarkable. I am just realizing I don't see a whole lot of people on park benches walking the streets in Lynchburg. Some cities, it's just very much in your face. You mentioned there were nine programs that did similar work. Talk about collaborations. How do you work in conjunction with any kind of disciplines, any agencies in working with this demographic? Sarah: We have a great community collaboration among homeless response providers, not only jus those direct service providers, our homeless prevention, our homeless diversion, shelters, DV shelters, organizations like us that do those next step services. We have those at the table. We also have our auxiliary services: our social services, our mental health providers, our recovery providers, probation and parole, police offers, our school systems. We recognize we need everyone at the table informing policy, informing decisions. The great thing is that having all those different voices allows us to make sure there are no gaps in services, that we are serving every population. We have providers that are working specifically with veterans experiencing homelessness. We target families. Now we are going to be the youth provider. We have other organizations who work with individuals who are chronically homeless. Recognizing that not one organization needs to do it all. Instead, we need to build upon which organization is really great at this work, and let's support them in that instead of duplicating or trying to compete. That is what we do as a homeless response system. We recognize what the gaps are, what we are doing really well, and also what do we no longer need. Maybe we no longer need this many shelter beds because we are doing a really good job at diverting or preventing people from becoming homeless. Let's instead dedicate more resources to that so that way we can do a better job of preventing homelessness rather than just treating it. Those conversations can really happen when you have everyone at the table, so that has been really neat. Hugh: Preventing. Go ahead, Russell. Russell: Prevention work more than a pound a cure. Next time you're out, Hugh, we can do a tour. I can show you where a lot of homeless people are. They are starting to appear in the burbs, away from Denver. They're everywhere. Those conversations or those collaborations are magic because everybody works in their wheelhouse. But there is always more. In looking at the measures that you're thinking about as far as prevention, if there was one thing that as a group these agencies could do that would be the most important thing for them to do as far as prevention, what would that one action be that you would have them take? Sarah: Create more affordable housing. We talked about it earlier. That's the piece. Not only in preventing homelessness at the front end, but also in ending homelessness when someone becomes homeless. By and large, no one wants to become homeless. People are becoming homeless because they don't have affordable housing. If somebody is already paying more than 50% of their income toward rent and they lose that job, there is no way they have a savings account to pay that next month's rent when they were already paying more than their means. Having more affordable housing really would be the key in preventing many incidences of homelessness. Russell: That sounds either like like-mindedness or group psychosis. That's what a lot of people are thinking in these parts. We have a real challenge with affordable housing because there is development going on everywhere. There is people making tons of money. There are moves being made by various city governments to clear away some areas to do some rezoning to allow for mixed-use commercial and affordable housing with land prices and housing prices going up. It's a real challenge for us here. I hope it's not as big there. The bigger the challenge, the bigger the mission. Your people are willing to cooperate. I just found out about agencies I didn't even know about. There is a spirit and collaboration a lot of people are looking at because this is huge. There are people from all sides of town that are starting to look at this and say, “Ooh, we are in over our heads.” There is a lot more willingness to collaborate. I guess that is what Henry Kissinger meant when he said “The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvelously.” Sarah: Yep, sure. Hugh: Sarah, going forward, I'm sure as a leader, you have a vision for what this organization should look like in five years. Have you developed that in conjunction or have a process to think about that with your board? Sarah: Yeah. We do some great strategic thinking every few years. Three years with our board, to lay that vision, to say where we have come, where are we going. That has happened. Our growth has not just happened by accident. It has been strategic. What do we do really well? First, that was family homelessness. We improved that program until now we can serve every family experiencing homelessness. Then it was recognizing what was next. There is this youth homeless population that is not being served, so now we are going to grow that program. I think that will really continue. It is recognizing the dynamic changes of homelessness and what it is we can do to make a difference. If in five years from now, all of a sudden we see a spike in a different population experiencing homelessness, then we will address that population. We are remaining true to our mission of ending homelessness, but recognizing that might look different as circumstances change, as our community shifts or changes, or different populations become homeless. Or there is new interventions. The biggest thing for me is to remain flexible. Recognizing that in all that we do, we need to be working to end homelessness. That will look different, and we will be serving different people five years form now than we are serving right now. Hugh: As a side note, SynerVision gives away ten visioning or board evaluation sessions a year for local nonprofits. We can extend that to Denver if you wanted to, Russ. We meet with boards. It's helpful to have somebody who is not inside to help boards think about what possibilities there are. You come backwards and think about how to get there. If you have a vision for the future, what are the biggest challenges in going forward with all of the things going on in our world today? What is the biggest challenges that Miriam's House faces to achieve those goals? Sarah: There is difficulty in predicting things like the availability of federal and state funding for homeless response is a concern. Of course, a portion of our funding is through federal homeless response grants and state homeless response grants. That is for many of our partners across the country. The instability of that funding is a concern. Continued funding for things like subsidized housing and affordable housing development. That will be huge in the next several years, seeing the direction of the Department of Housing and Urban Development in creating more affordable housing in communities. Those big policy decisions are difficult to predict. They shape how communities address homelessness. Hugh: In your seat of leader, how do you continue to work on yourself, your skills, your abilities to grow this organization? Sarah: I think taking advantage of others in similar roles across the state and the country in forming those connections and those collaborations. Even just having open conversations about challenges they are experiencing, things they had to overcome. I am certainly not one to recreate the wheel. When we have added a new program or serve a new population, I have reached out to others who are doing good work and have asked for help, input, and advice. That has served me well and allows me to not to have to recreate the wheel or learn from mistakes, but rather to really hone in on what has worked for others. I think that has been and will continue to be helpful tool. Hugh: We are coming to the last minutes of our conversation. We try not to go over an hour even though we get intrigued by the good work of the people we interview. I think many people are going to find this inspiring, hearing your story. Some people learn by tactical, how to do this, how to do that. Other people learn from stories. Some people learn from both. This has been a good sharing time to inspire people. I want to ask a question, and then I will do my sponsor promotion, and then come back to you for a final thought as we close out the interview about what would you share with other people that you think they ought to know about leadership and building an organization. What is a challenge, a tip, or a charge for people who are listening to this podcast? You talk about the groups that you get together with, like the veterans, the groups that have something in common. Do you also work with groups that aren't doing the same thing? Do you work with Food for Families or some of those other charities that work with these people in different ways? If so, how do you build these collaborations? Sarah: Yeah. Miriam's House is not only a direct service provider, but we are also the lead agency for homeless response in central Virginia. Part of that role is building those connections and building those collaborations and recognizing that we need everyone at the table, not just the homeless response providers, but those other organizations and entities. That is people like landlords who may have housing that we can advocate to become more affordable, or we can advocate for those landlords to offer housing to individuals with barriers, like eviction. That collaboration is one on one with meaningful individuals and entities and encouraging them to become a part of the solution to homelessness. It's also a larger thing. When there is a recognition of good work being done, people want to join that. Over the last several years, the homeless response system, of which Miriam's House is a part of, has received some great recognition that we are making some good progress, we have done some good work, and so people, organizations, businesses want to be a part of that. Hugh: It takes good leadership. Because of your demeanor and your willingness to talk and share, you attract similar people to you who would want to do that kind of work. You're not in this protective secret operation. You're doing something that is going to attract like-minded people. You can't say that for every segment of charities in any community, not even Lynchburg. There are some segments that aren't collaborating. We are headed toward opening a center at the University of Lynchburg. SynerVision is a partner in that project, along with Central Virginia something for Excellence and Nonprofit. We are going to build a center. It's partly helping equip leaders with skills for board and funding, but also a place to come and broaden the scope of collaborations. I'm thinking you ought to be in that conversation to help us think about how that would work because there are a lot of charities that don't have this level of synergy that we want to help bring together, and also have a listing for everybody of who does what. There is not a global listing resource that is up to date so any agency knows how to refer to people. Just a heads up, we'd love to have you in that conversation sometime soon. Sarah: Great. I would love to be part of that. *Sponsor message about Wordsprint* Hugh: You spoke about grants, Sarah, but I'm sure donors are a significant part of your funding as well and could be even more. Sarah: That's true. I think that's one thing that a lot of organizations have increased their efforts to because we don't have a lot of control over state and federal grants, but we can certainly build relationships with our community donors. Hugh: This has been very helpful and informative. I appreciate your time today. As we leave this session, what thought or challenge would you like to share with other leaders out there who haven't quite gotten to the place that you have? Or who have gotten to a good place and want to make sure they stay current with their skills. Sarah: Staying connected to the history of an organization and staying connected to the mission and the beauty that happened before, but also not being so tied to that history that there is an unwillingness to change and to grow. What has been great about my experience at Miriam's House is that ability to honor the past while also really looking forward to the future and honoring that past by changing for the future. Hugh: Russell, do you want to give us a wrap as we are leaving here? Russell: Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us here about an important matter. It's really about partnerships. I think the private sector becomes a bigger part of that as we go along because when you talk about land and real estate, you're talking about real money and profit. It's important to get those people who resonate with your message on board to understand that this is impacting people they may know. Thank you for the brilliant work you're doing. I'd love to talk to you again about a book I'm working on, profiling high-performance nonprofits because I think you'd fit there. I thank all of our friends everywhere for watching and listening. Sandy will want you to submit something to our magazine, and we'd love an article on this.  Not many people know much about homelessness, so it's important they get a chance to learn more about that. Thank you to Sandy who always keeps us on track. We love it. Sandy is definitely looking forward to having an article. She will get that information to you on how to submit and what we look for. I look forward to seeing you soon. As always, you know Hugh and I have a lot of fun. This is the fun part of the job: meeting people like you and finding out what stuff you're doing. It helps us recharge our batteries. We are in the transformation business. It's about people. It's about transforming lives. There is a bigger picture here. We need a lot of enlightened leaders like you to bring it to life for other people and to help us move on and create that legacy so no one is left behind. Hugh: Thank you, Russell. Russell: Not bad for a bald guy. Hugh: Not bad. Thank you, Russell. Thank you, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Join Elisa Pulliam and Angela Sackett on the second part of this special episode of the More to Be Podcast for an inspiring and faith-infusing interview with Sarah Eremic.Sarah is an example of steadfast faith and resiliency in the face of suffering. She models a passion for sharing the Gospel through everyday relationships grown through hospitality and mentorship. In this, part 2, she gives examples of walking through suffering, fighting to receive joy, and looking to see how God might use you to fill needs around you.HIGHLIGHTS"I see a warrior of God when I look at you (Sarah). You're not saying it's easy to walk through those things... but you have a steadfastness in your faith that inspires me to be like you in that steadfastness." -Elisa"Franklin (Graham) turned out okay, and Billy (Graham) endured." We need the stories of God's people enduring for the glory of God. - Elisa"You can't do it by gritting your teeth and getting through. You have to feel pain, if you're ever going to help this person down the road." -Sarah"We have to learn through our suffering, otherwise, we shove off from God and we become bitter. One telltale sign of bitterness is comparison." - Sarah"God's people wrestled with Him. Use His words - pray God's Word back to Him." - Sarah"I'm going to accept, with joy, where you have me." -Angela"There are some periods of deep grief, where as hard as you try, the word joy is foreign to you... hang on for dear life. Sometimes we have to fight for joy." -Sarah"We don't always know how to mourn with those who mourn." -Elisa"The only things I asked the Lord for, I didn't get. Now there's a chance for bitterness." -Sarah"I don't sit there waiting for a chance to explain the way of salvation. That very rarely ever comes... I'm earning the right to speak into their lives. I'm learning the right, as a friend." -Sarah"We might not like God's sovereignty at moments, but we can cling to it." - Sarah"There are questions I might always ask God, but I don't need the answers to trust God." - SarahTheology is so important for women -- there is a need for a bedrock theology about God's plan for our lives. We have to have a strong theological base as women. - SarahCHALLENGE QUESTIONSSarah shared how she has held onto her faith in hard circumstances, and she told us we need to fight for it. How can you "fight for it," to hold on to your faith?Where have you seen God move to protect you or provide for you through tragedy?RESOURCESWould you like a guide for how to create everyday welcome in your home? Consider this practical and inspiring resource from Angela!Ready to discover how to be a woman of impact right where God has planted you? The Impact Mentoring Course (special discount for Podcast listeners) is a perfect option!CONNECT WITH USElisa on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest and the More to Be TribeAngela on Instagram, Facebook,Twitter, Pinterest and Everyday WelcomeThanks for listening! We appreciate your reviews and spreading the word about our podcast! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Here at the Read-Aloud Revival, we are BIG FANS of audio books, but we get asked all the time: "Do audio books count as real read alouds?" In today's brand new episode of the podcast, I'm answering that question. In this episode, you'll hear: whether or not audio books count as real readingwhere and how to listen (either alone or as a family)where I get the best deals on audio books Audio books absolutely aren't cheating, and I'm here today with your quick guide for getting started! Be the first to hear about Audible deals Would you like to be notified by email about Sarah's favorite Audible deals? Awesome. That worked! I'll keep you posted when I find new deals. xo, Sarah There was an error submitting your subscription. Please try again. Email Address I'd like to receive the free email course. Yes please! Powered by ConvertKit /* Layout */ .ck_form.ck_minimal { /* divider image */ background: #f9f9f9; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; line-height: 1.5em; overflow: hidden; color: #666; font-size: 16px; border: solid 1px #d1d1d1; -webkit-box-shadow: none; -moz-box-shadow: none; box-shadow: none; clear: both; margin: 20px 0px; text-align: center; } .ck_form.ck_minimal h3.ck_form_title { text-align: center; margin: 0px 0px 10px; font-size: 28px; } .ck_form.ck_minimal h4 { text-align: center; font-family: 'Open Sans', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; text-transform: uppercase; font-size: 18px; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 0px; margin-top: 0px; } .ck_form.ck_minimal p { padding: 0px; } .ck_form, .ck_form * { -webkit-box-sizing: border-box; -moz-box-sizing: border-box; box-sizing: border-box; } .ck_form.ck_minimal .ck_form_fields { width: 100%; float: left; padding: 5%; } /* Form fields */ .ck_errorArea { display: none; /* temporary */ } #ck_success_msg { padding: 10px 10px 0px; border: solid 1px #ddd; background: #eee; } .ck_form.ck_minimal input[type="text"], .ck_form.ck_minimal input[type="email"] { font-size: 18px; padding: 10px 8px; width: 68%; border: 1px solid #d6d6d6; /* stroke */ -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px; /* border radius */ background-color: #fff; /* layer fill content */ margin-bottom: 5px; height: auto; float: left; margin: 0px; margin-right: 2%; height: 42px; } .ck_form input[type="text"]:focus, .ck_form input[type="email"]:focus { outline: none; border-color: #aaa; } .ck_form.ck_minimal .ck_subscribe_button { width: 100%; color: #fff; margin: 0px; padding: 11px 0px; font-size: 18px; background: #6fc171; -moz-border-radius: 3px; -webkit-border-radius: 3px; border-radius: 3px; /* border radius */ cursor: pointer; border: none; text-shadow: none; width: 30%; float: left; height: 42px; } .ck_form.ck_minimal .ck_guarantee { color: #626262; font-size: 12px; text-align: center; padding: 15px 0px 0px; display: block; clear: both; } .ck_form .ck_powered_by { display: block; color: #aaa; font-size: 12px; } .ck_form .ck_powered_by:hover { display: block; color: #444; } .ck_converted_content { display: none; padding: 5%; background: #fff; } .ck_form.ck_minimal.width400 .ck_subscribe_button, .ck_form.ck_minimal.width400 input[type="email"] { width: 100%; float: none; margin-top: 5px; } .ck_slide_up, .ck_modal, .ck_slide_up .ck_minimal, .ck_modal .ck_minimal { min-width: 400px; } .page .ck_form.ck_minimal { margin: 50px auto; max-width: 600px; }  Click the play button below: More free resources & booklists Get the best episodes and reources from the Read-Alo...

Have YOU heard of little c antibodies? Sarah gives us information and inspiration as she shares her story with this rare condition. She fought for the redemptive home birth of her dreams while caring for herself and taking the highest precautions for her baby. Sarah built the supportive birth team she didn't have the first time around and made birthing choices that helped her feel the most in control. Her HBAC with a nuchal hand was a whirlwind and a story we know you'll love!Additional linksThe VBAC Link on InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsMamasteFit Childbirth EducationFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan here with you today and we are really excited about our guest today. I was just reading her bio, and then I was reading a little bit about her and her births, and then I had this “Aha!” moment. I am like, “Wait a minute. Are you the one that we were talking to before you had your baby?” And she was like, “Yes, I was.”And so, we have this really fun story, kind of a little established relationship I guess, before the birth and after the birth. It is always fun to be able to talk to people that have reached out to us before they have their baby and then hear from them after they have their baby. I am so excited to hear the full story.But before I tell you what made her story stand out to me, I'm going to read a little bit of her bio that I thought was really cute. If you can hear my three-year-old in the background, she escaped from quarantine upstairs. My husband will come down soon and rescue me from her.But Sarah‘s bio is really, really cute. She said she is a working mom of two tiny humans and two not-so-tiny cats. She has a quirky sense of humor and an affinity for superhero movies. That's where I was like, “Okay.” We have got to talk about this because superhero movies-- I really love superhero movies now, but before I got married, I didn't even know the difference between Batman and Superman. Now I know and I have a very strong opinion about Batman. We won't go into that though. But I married a geek and he is all about the superheroes, and the comic books, and everything. And so, I've come to really love the superhero movies and all of those things. It's a sentimental part of my life. So that made me really happy. She's part of the American Sign Language community. Her oldest is hard of hearing, so everybody in her family is learning American Sign Language. That is really neat. When I was younger, I was obsessed with sign language. I went to a class and I had a book I was learning and teaching my brother and sister how to do all the signs and stuff like that, but I haven't done any of that for-- oh my gosh, it has been way more than 20 years which really makes me feel old to say that. But anyway, the part of her story that-- actually, before we do that, should we do a Review of the Week, Meagan?Review of the WeekMeagan: Sure. Sure.Julie: Yeah. Let's do a Review of the Week and then we will talk about the part of her story that made me excited. Yeah, go ahead.Meagan: OK. This is from Jacqueline Lee and she was on Instagram. She said, “Just found you and will be keeping you. Hoping to VBAC with our second babe whenever they come along. I would love to share my stories when that time comes. I have been listening to your podcast and love how informative and diverse they are. Our first was born in Paraguay when we were teaching. She was breech and so I had a C-section. Hoping for a vertex baby to be able to have a VBAC, but I did labor with our first until an 8. It was a wild story full of funny cultural differences and language barriers.”I love that. I remember when she wrote us that we were like, “Oh, you're so sweet. Can we put you on our review?” And she was like, “Yes, please do.” We are so excited that she was able to share her review and we hope that when the time comes, she will be able to rock her VBAC and have an amazing story and then hopefully, one day, be on the podcast as well.Julie: That's awesome. I am excited. It just makes me happy when people come full circle and share they were listening to the podcast and then share their stories on the podcast. That is fun because we have been doing this VBAC Link thing for-- oh my gosh, it will be three years in May. It's really fun because when we first started out, I was literally stalking hashtags on Instagram to find people who had a VBAC to share their stories on the podcast. Now we have way more submissions than we can even record. And to have people who started out with us before they even got pregnant and listening to the podcast, and taking our courses, and sharing their story, it all is just really exciting to me.Sarah's storyJulie: All right. Let me tell you. This is the thing that you have all been waiting for. I know you have been holding your breath for the last few minutes just waiting to see what could possibly get me so excited about her story. And it's little c antibodies. If you don't know what that means, you are not the only one because Sarah reached out to us on Instagram Messenger, I think it was, asking if we had heard of any VBAC stories or VBAC information about how to VBAC with little c antibodies and Maegan and I were like, “What are little c antibodies?”Meagan: Yeah. I remember because I thought, “Isn't there a big C?”Julie: Yeah. Big C and little c. Meagan: But I've only heard of big.Julie: And we are like, “Is that a capital? Is that like a capitalized? What is a big C? What is a little c?” So we dug in and we found some research on it. It's really an interesting thing because it's not something that you hear about very often, but we are going to learn a lot about it in this episode. And before I go any more into telling how excited I am to hear the story, we should probably actually hear the story. So Sarah, why don't you go ahead and share your stories with us?Sarah: Hello. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So obviously, being a VBAC mom, I had a first child that was born via Cesarean. She was supposed to be a birth center baby and I was just having all kinds of trouble with back labor and not being able to cope with everything. I don't think I did as well preparing for her birth and it was a lot. I felt very overwhelmed and I think my husband was doing the best he could, but looking back, I keep saying, I really wish I would've had some doula support there. I think that's one of my biggest regrets. I actually ended up transferring to the birth center about halfway through my pregnancy because I knew I wanted something that was a little bit less hospital-y. Hospitals make me nervous and it's just kind of how I am. Unfortunately, I did make that call. I think it was one of those 2:00 a.m., overwhelmed, not dilating any, and then going to the hospital. It was a lot.So I labored pretty much all day. I got an epidural and then I didn't have a very great supportive doctor. He just came in and he was like, “Oh, this is what we are going to do” and “Oh, I broke your water by the way. It already happened.” So just not a lot of consent. Things like that that I know now that I want and need as a mom, and as a mom in labor for sure. Once it came down to it, I think I pushed for about three hours and the doctor was like, “Well, baby is stuck. We are going to do a C-section now.” I didn't get a whole lot of information about what that meant or what that would mean for me moving forward. It was just kind of happening in that moment.I even remember the anesthesiologist. God bless her. She was amazing. She was the only person that was walking me through what was going on, helping me stay calm, and she goes, “Well, the doc is going to put some pressure to make sure you are numb.” And the doc goes, “Oh, I've already started cutting.” So like I said, I just didn't have a really great experience with my first being born. And then on top of that coming home, I didn't know how to care for myself postpartum. We had a lot of family stuff going on so I didn't have any family support, and then I ended up developing both postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression that went undiagnosed for probably about three months before I realized that I needed to start reaching out and getting help.As a result of that, I started looking around-- so that was about five years ago. I started looking around to the birth community as a whole to see what information was out there. I found out what a VBAC was and that's how I found you guys. It was just in the process of finding out what my resources were. Moving forward to the start of the pandemic last year. I found out I was pregnant and then a few days after that, my work went to remote, so I was working from home in my first trimester with a four-year-old. It was nonsense. It was about as fun as it sounds. I always say, “I love my kid and I love my job, but I do not like it when they go together.”So I knew I wanted to find a different kind of provider. I started looking around in my area and I found a midwife that would support a home birth. One of my first questions to her was, “Do you support VBACs?” She said, “Absolutely.” And she said it just like that. “Absolutely.” We had a wonderful conversation just talking me through how many VBACs she has been a part of through the years. A lot of my first visits were on the phone and everything was weird and everybody was working remote. I told her I was concerned because I had a couple of miscarriages and she was like, “No problem. We can be proactive and let's monitor your blood levels.” During one of those first rounds of bloodwork, we found out about the little c antibodies. I almost immediately called her and I am like, “What is this? Does this mean I can't have my home birth? Am I going to have to go back to the hospital?” Honestly, I was kind of freaking out and she said, “Listen. Let me do some homework and we are going to see what that means.”She decided that we wanted to make sure we were checking on this very well. So I drove-- I am down in Fort Myers. I drove up to Tampa General and that is about a 3-3.5 hour drive and I talked to a specialist. So she is a geneticist. I don't know. She does stuff with blood work. So I sat down with this lady and she is going through it. The best way that I can describe what she was trying to tell me is, “Your blood cells have different facets on them kind of like a diamond. It's similar to the Rh. Normally when we hear about blood stuff and a pregnant mama, it is that Rh factor. So that, we have heard of. That is fine, but this is a different part of that same cell, but a different facet.”It was very confusing to be quite honest. But she explained that when they test my blood, they are looking for those antibodies because my husband has an antigen. So he has got something on one of his blood cells that my blood cells don't like and as a result, my body creates these antibodies to try to attack it and the really crazy thing is it's almost exclusive to VBAC moms or second-time moms, but more commonly VBAC moms because when they were doing the incision, some of baby's blood, some of my blood may have crossed over and that would cause my body to start reacting even way back five years ago when my first daughter was born. It was crazy. Just the thought that that's been in my body this whole time and I didn't know about it. So that was kind of cool but kind of scary.She said that the levels that they found were very low. And it's just-- you know, “you have got a very low level of this kind of antibody that is freaking out on your baby, so we are going to keep an eye on it and as your pregnancy progresses, if it starts to rise, if that level starts to get more concentrated in your blood, then we are going to have to have a deeper discussion about getting baby out sooner and maybe not going to full-term. Are we going to have to have baby before 40 weeks? I don't know. We will keep an eye on it.” That sort of thing.So every time I went to a visit with my midwife, we had to do a blood draw. It was annoying, but ultimately, throughout my entire pregnancy, that level never changed for me. So thankfully it wasn't anything that I had to really do anything about, but it was always that little worry in the back of my mind. It was just frustrating because I had such an uneventful pregnancy before and I just wanted that again especially in the middle of a pandemic. Everything is freaking out in the world, why can't I just have an easy pregnancy? Then, we go in for the midway through ultrasound. I went back up to Tampa General. My wife here recommended it because she always says, “If there's anything to find, they're really good. They are going to be the ones to catch it.” Tampa General is one of the best hospitals in the state and their maternal-fetal medicine is top-notch, so I felt good about going up there. I've got family up there anyway, so we just made a visit out of it. While we were there for the ultrasound, obviously, I have to go in by myself because COVID. And so, my poor husband is out in the parking lot with the one bar of Wi-Fi signal trying to do a Zoom meeting with me to be able to see or hear anything. He's got a few minutes to see or talk to me and then they had a rule about how we can't record and we can't have the phone or a video through the whole visit. It was kind of crazy.So for the most part, I am in there by myself. I am trying to communicate with my husband on a weird connection and it was frustrating. But anyway, so during the first 20-week ultrasound, they go, “Well, we are looking and we are not seeing that other kidney on baby,” and I go, “Okay.” The doctor was very reassuring and he said, “Well, it could be in a weird spot. It could be that we are just not seeing it because baby is in a weird position, so we are going to have you come back in a month.” I was, again, just frustrated because we are in this crazy thing and just-- really? Why me? Why my baby? Why all the stuff? So we made plans to come back in a month. But I definitely know at that point I needed two things. Number one, I needed to check in with my mental health counselor. She specializes in mom stuff, birth-related things, mom-related things. She is awesome. And so, I was able to talk to her and talk through some of the things that were going on. And then number two, I knew that I needed a doula. Why on earth I waited so long, I have no idea, but I did find my doula around the 20-week mark. She was able to start checking in with me every week because I knew that if I was going into a birth that potentially had any kind of complications, I needed all the support that I could get. I followed up with them as much as I could as much as I needed to and tried to identify in myself if I felt like I was stressing out too much or if I was letting things overtake my mind too much just to know to check in with my doula, check in with my counselor, and I think that made a big difference trying to manage things throughout pregnancy. We even got a plan in place so if we did have to transfer to a hospital, having a backpack that I could keep in my closet. We talked about, “If it is in your closet, you don't even have to look at it, but that piece in the back of your mind that knows it is there will feel good about that and you won't be so stressed.” I am very glad that I did that. It really helped and I was able to have that calm reassurance. So as I am going through, I get to the end of pregnancy. We are still monitoring this little c blood thing, and we still can't find a kidney on baby, and on top of that, now I am measuring ahead. At 36 weeks, I was measuring around 42 or 43 weeks, so I went on a low-carb, low-sugar diet. It may have been before 36 weeks. It felt like a lifetime of no sugar and no carbs. When you're pregnant, all you want is pizza and you can't have it and props to all the mamas that do have gestational diabetes because that is so hard and thankfully, I didn't have gestational diabetes. I just had to eat like I did. Baby kept growing and growing and growing, and we were worried that if baby was going to be too big if there was going to be a sugar thing on top of everything else, that could be a problem. We wanted to make sure that the fluid levels in my uterus were good because that could mean that the kidney is working or not working depending upon what's going on there. So my midwife and I really started having some conversations about, “Do we want to go past that due date?” Legally, it's maybe measuring a certain size, like in the state of Florida if the baby is too big, she is not able to do a home birth for me. So I was freaking out, calling my therapist, doing all of the things. I spent the week of Thanksgiving in acupuncture, pumping, doing my Spinning Babies®, walking the curb, doing the whole list of things. I must have spent at least a good hour of my pregnancy upside down on my couch, I think.Meagan: Oh my gosh. How much did the baby have to measure up before they disqualified you? Do you remember?Sarah: I don't remember. I want to say it was 10 pounds.Meagan: Wow.Sarah: But I think that's if they measured on an ultrasound and she tries to do as few ultrasounds as she can because she very firmly believes your body is not going to make a baby that is too big for you, you know?Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.Sarah: She supported me as much as she could, but because we had to monitor all of these other things, it was like, “Oh great. Now, we are finding out too much.”Meagan: I know, yeah.Sarah: Yeah. So Thanksgiving, we are doing all the things. That put me at 39 weeks. We had talked about doing the famous midwives brew. I took that on, I think it was Monday night of that first week after Thanksgiving and I started having contractions, getting all excited, and then everything completely fizzled out. I was like, “No!” But at least my body was doing something which felt good because before, with my older daughter, we went two weeks beyond. Nothing was happening. I thought I was going to be pregnant forever. You know, all that stuff. So I was like, “All right. Well, at least my body is gearing up for something.” Later that week, I started noticing I was leaking a little bit and I wasn't, you know, is it pee? Is it amniotic fluid? The world may never know, but thankfully, my midwife has a way to find out with that little stick thing. And so, she was like, “Check the stick. See if it is amniotic fluid. We talked about doing a lift and tuck. Apparently, in addition to everything else, I have a weird-shaped uterus that has a forward tilt which is probably why my first daughter was in such a terrible position, and I had back labor because she wasn't able to move into a good position. But I know that now. So one more chiropractor visit, one more visit to the acupuncturist, and the midwife said, “Let's see what is going on, but if you have more leaking, let me know.” That was Thursday. Yeah. So Thursday, I had my visit with my midwife. We talked about all of that and then that night, I had a little bit more leaking and she said, “Okay. Is it a little? Is it a lot?” I was like, “It is just a little.” And she goes, “Okay. We are going to have you try the brew one more time. Definitely call me because now that we have confirmed that your waters have started rupturing, we are on a time clock in terms of having the best chance for a VBAC. We don't want to have a long leak and drain out all the fluid, and then get you into a bad spot where baby can't maneuver.” So we did our last-minute chores, made sure my daughter had a bag packed. I went to bed as soon as I could. That night, around 11:30 or so, I woke up with contractions. I'm excited, trying to stay calm, use the bathroom, got my heating pad out. I was trying really hard to hold off on all of my pain management stuff just because before, I didn't have anything and now I didn't want to waste it all at the very beginning because I had a 30-hour labor the first time around and that's what I was gearing up for. My brain was telling me, “You are going to have a 30-hour labor. It's going to be long. Hold off as long as you can.” So I went back to sleep and I woke up a few hours later, around 2:00, and I felt a pop and a gush. My water definitely had broken. That was weird because I didn't have that the first time. Like I said, the doctor broke my water the first time around. So I was like, “All right. I've got to clean this up.” I'm trying to let my husband sleep and be quiet, but I am stumbling around because I'm having contractions and it is dark. I'm tripping on things. And so, I get to the bathroom and I'm trying to get settled, and then I'm like, “Oh yeah, the lift and tuck.” So I am having to lift on my belly and tuck my pelvis through every contraction. Normally, I think they recommend that you have someone else do that. It is very uncomfortable. It hurts, but I knew after those conversations with my midwife after talking to my chiropractor, they were like, “This is going to be what you need to do to help.” So I had that in mind and I felt the minute she shifted, the second that she shifted into position. It was crazy. I am like, “Okay. Now we are going.” It was around that time that things really picked up and I yelled out to my husband, I am like, “Get up.” And so, he wakes up and he was fumbling around in the dark. I think he knocked something over. But he calls the doula and she was like, “All right. I am on my way.”And then, he called the midwife. Because my contractions were not, I think-- what is the formula? It is 4-1-1. So four minutes apart, one minute long, one minute-- I don't remember. Whatever her thing was. It wasn't quite to that point. She said, “Keep me posted, but we are going to observe her for a little longer and keep me posted. I've got my stuff ready. I can be on my way.” She's on standby. So he is coming over and he's like, “All right. You have to get out of the bathroom,” because our bathroom is this narrow tunnel. There is a wall on one side and I think I'm stuck on the other side. It's just long, so no one could have gone behind me really well or anything. He was like, “You have got to get out of here,” and I was like, “I don't want to.” So he is trying to push me out of the bathroom a little bit and I was able to crawl out in between contractions. I made it to the foot of our bed and I just camped out there. I was like, “This is as far as I can make it.” He was like, “You're fine.”So then, my doula arrived. At this point, I have no clue what the actual timeline is, but I know she got there pretty quickly, my doula did. She starts helping put up the birth pool and get the hose set up. She's checking on me and he's checking on me. I remember she came in and she's doing hip compressions and I'm trying to move around a little bit. I think mostly I was on all fours and I was just swaying my hips. I tried getting up where my forearms were resting on the bed and I am like, “Nope. I can't do that.”I just was doing my best to keep on keeping on and using that low breath, or the low “ahhhh”-- the voice thing that they tell you to do. That was super helpful because just doing that, I knew-- and after taking, because I took three classes all in all. I did The VBAC Link course, I did another one with Mamastefit. She was on here at some point, I think, last year and she was talking about the physiology of birth. Her class is really good.Meagan: Mhmm. We love Gina. We love her.Julie: Yes. We love her.Sarah: Gina, her stuff is really good. Anybody who wants to know the physiology of what your body is doing, her course really nails that. And then, I did another course in-person with my doula service. Theirs was Birthing From Within based. She talked about the vocalizations, and movements, and things like that, but one of the things that really stuck with me was contractions are going to be a minute. It's not going to be five minutes. It's not going to be ten minutes. You can get through a minute. You can do that. We practiced holding the ice in your hand for a minute. Being able to practice that and having it in my head was so realistic. I think it really helped me mentally as I'm in the moment trying to go through. I remember I was trying so hard to talk to my doula because I don't think I wanted her-- she was rubbing my back or something and I don't even think I could tell her, “I don't like that.” I was so in the zone. At one point, I did manage to tell her, “I feel like pushing.” I was so scared because, with my daughter, my oldest, I felt like pushing, but I was not anywhere near ready to push which apparently, again, was a sign of being in the wrong position. I was scared that that was happening again.She said, “Okay. Well, where is the midwife? Hubby was like, “She told me to follow up and that was an hour ago.” So we call the midwife, she's on the phone, and then in the middle of that phone call, I go, “I think there is something in between my legs.” Tara, my doula, Tara comes over and she goes, “Yep. There is baby's head.”Julie: Oh my gosh!Meagan: Oh my heck!Sarah: Yeah.Julie: What?!Sarah: And so, I am like, “Okay.” She puts the midwife on speakerphone. My midwife is literally in her van coming my way and she goes, “Okay, so what is Sarah doing? What position is she in? What do you see?” And so, my doula takes over as the unofficial person in charge. I remember my husband telling me later, he was like, “I wanted to catch the baby, but Tara said ‘No.'”Meagan: Oh really?Sarah: Because she has been to several births. She ended up-- I think two weeks before that, one of the other moms that she supported, the same thing happened where the baby was born before the same midwife got there, so she caught that baby too.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh my gosh.Sarah: She is amazing. I love her. She's just an amazing person and she took over so well. But she comes over and my husband at least thought to turn on his camera on his phone so we have this very dark video, but she coached me through it. I hear my midwife on the phone going, “All right. She can push.” And so then, Tara's like, “Well, push, push, push, push and my baby shot out like a little torpedo. She was so fast. Her hand was up by her face, so I had an unassisted VBAC, HBAC because I was at home, with a nuchal hand. I just roared her out like a fierce lion mama. It was great. I remember the first thing I said was, “I eff-ing did it.”Julie: That is awesome. Sarah: The feeling of such relief after so much worry, and so much planning, and so much, just all of it coming to fruition in this weird moment at 5:30 in the morning and my poor midwife wasn't even there. There she was. I turned around and I started to look at her and I go, “Wait. What is it? It's a girl!” And so, I got to be the one this time to say that she was a girl and that was so important to me, but I didn't know it was until that moment. You know?Julie: Yeah. Aww.Meagan: I love it.Sarah: Yeah. After that, they tried to get me up on the bed and we are trying to get my placenta out. It kind of got stuck. So my midwife is trying to tell my doula, “All right. Give her some traction. Let's try nipple stimulation. What's going on here?” I was losing a lot of blood. It was probably 45 minutes later, so I had lost a significant amount of blood. I have a couple of pictures of me and baby and I am looking pasty in those pictures. When my midwife got there, she started going to work really quickly and she had her team. It was like a whirlwind of people doing stuff. It was awesome. I know at one point they were trying to figure out where they could hang an IV bag and I'm like, “There is a hanger right there and there's a flashlight behind the TV.” Like, I am directing things that are happening in my house. How I was so with it, I have no idea. They quickly decided that I needed some more support than they could give just because of how much time had passed, so they did end up calling an ambulance which, prior to all of the prep work that I had done with my therapist, I will tell you that that very well would have given me some major anxiety attack before. But I was able to roll with it. EMS got me up, got me downstairs, got me outside. They asked me questions. I somehow remembered my husband‘s telephone number at some point during all of that which I don't think I know that right now. So the fact that I knew that after I had lost half my blood volume was kind of a miracle. The hospital did have to go in and manually remove my placenta which was awful. I think that was worse than giving birth. I remember in all of that, I looked over at a nurse and I said, “I need you to tell me what's going on because that's going to keep me calm.” The fact that I was with it enough to be able to ask for that was pretty cool, but the fact that I knew that I needed that, again, because of all the prep work that I had done with my therapist mentally and emotionally. Knowing that I had somebody that could walk me through what was going on just helped so incredibly much. They got me patched up. They got some blood in me and I was able to tell them, “Hey, I have this little c thing. You might want to know about that when you are matching my blood type.” The doctor was able to verify all of that with my medical records and make sure that I got the most specified blood for my needs to help me get back up to speed. So that was really cool because I knew that having that information and being able to provide that to the doctor on a whim, I know that made a difference in me being able to recover quickly because it was just going to help. You know? Whether it made a huge difference physically to me, I don't know, but I think mentally it was like, “I am empowered and I have information about my body and about myself.” That was cool.So, second-degree tear. Three units of blood. I stayed at the hospital for a few days. But she came like a little whirlwind and she is the coolest kid let me tell ya.Homebirth midwivesJulie: I love that so much. There are so many things I want to highlight in your story besides the cool little c antibody educational piece. But I want to speak a little bit about home birth because people are afraid of home birth. It's definitely not for everybody, but there's a misunderstanding that midwives don't have as much medical knowledge and there's a higher chance that your baby will die, or you will die, or hemorrhage like in your case, right? You were hemorrhaging and I just want you to know that as a doula, and it sounds like your midwife and doula did the same thing, but as a doula, I have seen home birth transfers. These midwives that have attended hundreds and hundreds, and sometimes thousands of home births, are very in tune, and very on point, and very, very particular about all of the details around birth. It was really funny because when you were telling your story with the nuchal hand and then after birth, you were losing a lot of blood and they called the ambulance and everything, I attended a birth just like that, except the midwife got there before the baby was born, a couple of years ago. It wasn't even two or three minutes after the baby was born, the midwife was like, “Let's get EMS on the phone.” She was putting pressure inside and outside of the mom's uterus to stop the bleeding and then the ambulance got there. I was arranging for her son to go another way and then her husband was arranging things. It was just so seamless, and the midwife was so calm, and we transferred care. It was the same thing. The doctor had to go inside and manually remove the placenta, and then she had to have two D&Cs, actually two more in the coming weeks to get the rest of her placenta out. I guess the best way to describe it from my point of view is beautiful chaos. It was an emergency, but man, this midwife was just so skilled and trained. They don't take chances. They are highly educated. They have, depending on if they are a CPM, a Certified Professional Midwife, or a licensed midwife, and you can be both in some states, they carry the same drugs like Methergine and Pitocin to stop bleeding. They carry antibiotics to administer if you are GBS positive. They have IV fluids that they can do. They are so trained and skilled that if an emergency happens, they are going to be able to transfer your care to the hospital. They're going to know the things that they need to do to help you before you get to the hospital. Guess what else? There's this really cool system, I forget what the acronym is, but as a student midwife, I am familiar with all these things. But there's this information database where midwives can share their information with the hospital they are transferring to while they are en route to the hospital. They're on the phone with the hospital so that when you get there, the hospital is ready to receive you and they don't have to ask any questions. They just pick up where the homebirth midwife left off. I think that's just something that people don't really realize happens. They think, “Oh my gosh. If there is an emergency, we are going to die when we're at home.” Granted, in extremely rare cases, things like that do happen just like they happen in the hospital, but at no higher rate as far as maternal and infant death goes. So I think that's really important to note. I wanted to spotlight that because, well, nobody wants a home birth transfer whether before or after the baby is born. When there are emergencies these homebirth midwives are amazing. They are amazing.Sarah: Yes. That was something that I had talked to her in-depth about before because I had such anxiety with the hospital. I remember at one point, I think it was when she came for my home check-up visit at however far along in the pregnancy and I said, “Hey. I am really nervous about if we have to transfer to the hospital, but I know that if I need to, I trust you on that. I am not going to ask to go to the hospital,” because I had asked when I was at the birth center with my oldest daughter. I transferred because I wanted to because I was having trouble and I wanted an epidural. So I wanted to make it clear to her to say, “If I'm going to transfer it is because I know that you need me to transfer.” I am putting that trust in her and she said all the same things that you just said. She was like, “Well, we have this and we have that, but if we need to transfer, I have that on speed dial,” kind of thing. I am sure no matter what state you're in, there are all kinds of rules and regulations and whatnot, but just being able to trust your provider whether it is a home birth midwife or a doctor in a hospital. If you can trust the person that you are literally placing your life in their hands to have them make sure that you are okay, I think that's key too.Julie: Yeah. I agree. I think most importantly is birthing with a provider In a location where you feel comfortable with and having the trust in them and having conversations like that with your midwife or your doctor whether you are in or out of the hospital. I think that those are all important conversations. Meagan, you have just been letting me ramble on over here. Do you want to jump in?Meagan: No. I am in agreeance with everything. Something for me is like, I really wanted a home birth, but my husband didn't feel comfortable with the idea of home birth. I think that can be a hard thing too. The mom feels comfortable birthing at one place, but the partner doesn't feel comfortable with them birthing at the other place. I think, sometimes, that can make it a hard situation, right? And so, I just loved so much that you didn't-- one, that you didn't have to feel that way, but even with my situation, in the end, we really just came down to it. I gave him all the education and facts on it and he was like, “Oh okay. Yeah. I think that would be fine.” And then after we had a VBAC, I had a similar situation. We didn't find my blood.Sarah: Hmm.Meagan: Yeah. Neither externally nor internally, weirdly enough. But I lost half of my body's blood after my birth. I passed out a couple of times. It was really interesting.Sarah: It's a weird feeling.Meagan: It is a really strange feeling. I remember waking up, I am like, “Why am I on the floor again?” And everyone is like, “Well, it's because you passed out again.” But even after all of that is said and done, my husband was like, “You know, if we are having another one,” which we are not, “I wouldn't do it any other way and we would totally do it at home.” And so, it is just so interesting to see how that experience changed his perspective on where we birth, you know? So, I don't know. I just love that you had an educated doula and that you had the midwife on the phone. I loved all of it. And you know what? I actually don't think I knew that Cesarean moms were at higher risk for the c.Sarah: I think it's just because there's a higher chance of the blood passing through into-- cross-contamination they said.Meagan: Yeah, which totally makes sense.Sarah: Yeah. It can totally happen with a vaginal delivery as well if there is a tear or something like that, but it's a lot more common for a—Meagan: -- a Cesarean.Sarah: Not that it is common, to begin with, let's be real. I have a weird blood thing to go with my weird unicorn kid that only has one kidney, and my other weird unicorn kid that can't hear well, and my husband who has weird blood. So, yeah. We're a family of unicorns.Julie: Unique. You're not weird. You're unique. I like it.Sarah: Unicorns. I have two girls. There are unicorns everywhere.Julie: Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes.Sarah: Everywhere.Meagan: I love it.Julie: That is amazing. Well, wow. We are so grateful that you shared your story with us today. It was so fun to come full circle from our admin texting us. She was like, “Have you heard of little c?” I was like, “A little c? Is that like Big C?” But like, being kind of sarcastic because sometimes we hear some crazy things and she was like, “No, really. Little C antibodies?” And Meagan was like, “I've heard of Big C.” I was major impressed with Meagan because I hadn't even heard of that. And so, it was just so fun to have that conversation in our memory and then have you come on the podcast and share. Yeah. It was just really neat to have you. Thank you so much.Meagan: Yes.Sarah: Definitely. Hopefully, if there's another mom out there that has something like that, she'll feel less alone.Julie: Yes. We are putting it in our title so that if anyone searches for it, they will find it.Sarah: There we go. Perfect.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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