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.Step inside one of the most unique corners of American healthcare as Transmission Interrupted takes you behind the scenes of the National Quarantine Unit at the University of Nebraska Medical Center and Nebraska Medicine. In this episode, host Jill Morgan is joined by key members of the Nebraska team—Dr. Katie Willet, Morgan Shradar, and Angie Vasa—to explore how preparedness, partnership, and people form the backbone of the nation's only dedicated quarantine unit. Listeners will discover the origin story of this 20-bed unit, why it's different from both home quarantine and traditional hospital isolation, and how its creation was driven by real-world lessons from recent public health emergencies like the Ebola outbreak and COVID-19 pandemic.From the practical logistics of care (think twice-daily health checks, concierge-level support, and even laundry service) to the psychological challenges of isolation and the intricacies of national and global collaboration, this episode sheds light on the critical thinking and teamwork required to protect both individuals and the community during high-stakes contagious threats. Hear firsthand how the UNMC and Nebraska Medicine team adapts with each new pathogen, leans on the strength of their Omaha community, and continuously trains to stay a step ahead of the next big infectious risk—demonstrating “Nebraska nice” even in the toughest circumstances.Questions or comments for NETEC? Contact us at info@netec.org.Visit Transmission Interrupted on the web at netec.org/podcast.GuestsMorgan Shradar, RN, BSN, MPHNursing Professional Development Specialist- Nebraska Biocontainment UnitCo-Director- National Disaster Medical Disaster Infectious Disease Training ProgramSubject Matter Expert NETEC & Task 2 Lead - NICSMorgan Shradar has more than 20 years of experience in the operating room and more than 14 years of experience with the Nebraska Biocontainment Unit. She has previous experience as a lead surgical nurse where she managed procedural areas (endoscopy, surgery, cardiac cath lab/interventional radiology, preop/pacu, and sterile processing). She has also managed process improvement initiatives for supply chain improvements and patient experience within procedural areas at Nebraska Medicine Bellevue. Morgan is a nurse coordinator with the Regional Emerging Special Pathogens Treatment Center (RESPTC). She develops and leads the education and training for the RESPTC team, including education meetings, quarterly trainings, exercises, and drill development. Morgan collaborates on the education and training and policy development for the National Quarantine Unit. She actively participated in the repatriation efforts of guests from Wuhan, China, and the Diamond Princess, who required care for COVID-19. Further, she is a subject matter expert with NETEC and partners with others to evaluate readiness for RESPTCs and works with long-term care focus groups to develop education and just-in-time resources to enhance LTC setting readiness. In 2020/2021, she partnered with LTC and skilled nursing facilities on evaluating the current COVID-19 infection control practices within facilities across Nebraska. She has also partnered with Nebraska Medicine to educate and train medical teams on donning/doffing PAPRs and worked with procedural areas on developing their PAPR protocols. Morgan is a task lead with NICS, which is focused on developing XR/AR education for the small and rural hospital on infection control practices within the sterile processing department. She is also the co-director of the National Disaster Medical Response Infectious Disease Training program, which has focused on educating and training the NDMS teams on infection control practices to ready them for deployment to both austere and hospital missions. Morgan collaborates in program development and partnerships with various organizations focused on infectious disease education and training. Morgan began her career in 2000 as an operating room nurse for Nebraska Medicine, where she joined the Nebraska Biocontainment Unit team in 2009 to play an integral role in treating patients with Ebola Virus Disease during the 2014-2015 activation.Dr. Katie Willet, MD, FACEPAssociate Professor, UNMC Department of Emergency MedicineAssociate Program Director, UNMC Department of Emergency MedicineHealth Security Fellowship Director, UNMC Department of Emergency MedicineKatie Willet, MD (she/her/hers), is an assistant professor in the Department of Emergency Medicine. She is one of the residency assistant program directors and takes part in the development of disaster preparedness and biopreparedness training for residents and other multidisciplinary trainees, both within UNMC and our external partners. She has interests in austere/wilderness medicine, disaster medicine, and biopreparedness. She also serves as the health security fellowship program director and co-creator with several partners within the Global Center for Health Security. With this, she takes part in preparedness planning, training development, and response. Similarly, she is involved with several different research and training projects with the Global Center for Health Security as well as teaching regionally about disaster preparedness. She is an assistant medical director for the National Quarantine Unit and a health security scholar with the Global Center for Health Security.Angie Vasa, MSN, RNDirector, Readiness Consultations and Metrics Development, NETECDirector, Emergency Preparedness and Special Pathogen Programs, Nebraska MedicineProgram Director, Region VII Regional Emerging Special Pathogen Treatment CenterAngela Vasa, MSN, RN, is the Director of Emergency Preparedness and Special Pathogen Programs at Nebraska Medicine. She serves as the Director of Consulting Services and Metrics Development at NETEC and is the Program Director for the Region VII Regional Emerging Special Pathogen Treatment Center. Angela is also a scholar in the Global Center for Health Security at the University of Nebraska Medical Center. Her nursing background includes over a decade of clinical experience with specialized expertise in the areas of trauma, critical care, solid organ transplant, and high-consequence infectious diseases. She joined the Nebraska Biocontainment Unit team in 2009, where she has cared for patients with Ebola virus disease and Lassa Fever and continues to be an active clinical member while serving as the program director.HostJill Morgan, RNEmory Healthcare, Atlanta, GAJill Morgan is a registered nurse and a subject matter expert in personal protective equipment (PPE) for NETEC. For 35 years, Jill has been an emergency department and critical care nurse, and now splits her time between education for NETEC and clinical research, most of it centering around infection prevention and personal protective equipment. She is a member of the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC), ASTM International, and the Association for the Advancement of Medical Instrumentation (AAMI)ResourcesNational Quarantine UnitGlobal Center for Health SecurityNebraska Medicine/UNMC asked to monitor U.S. citizens from cruise ship hantavirus outbreakWhat to know about Nebraska's National Quarantine Unit as it prepares to bring in hantavirus cruise ship passengersTransmission Interrupted PodcastNETEC Resource LibraryNETECAbout NETECA Partnership for PreparednessThe National Emerging Special Pathogens Training and Education Center's mission is to set the gold standard for special pathogen preparedness and response across health systems in the U.S. with the goals of driving best practices, closing knowledge gaps, and developing innovative resources.Our vision is a sustainable infrastructure and culture of readiness for managing suspected and confirmed special pathogen incidents across the United States public health and health care delivery systems.For more information, visit NETEC on the web.NETEC Consultation ServicesAssess and Advance Your Readiness for Special Pathogens with Free, Expert Consulting.NETEC offers free virtual and onsite readiness consulting to help health care facilities and EMS agencies prepare for special pathogen events. Our targeted support services are delivered by experts selected and assigned to each inquiry based on the unique needs of your organization. Have a question? Ask a NETEC expert.For more information, visit NETEC Consultation Services.

Episode 303-NFA “No F’ing Approval” Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode Transcript Page – 1 – of 12 Gun Lawyer — Episode 303 Transcript SUMMARY KEYWORDS NFA, Silencers, Lawsuit, Injunction, Taxation, Firearms, Suppressors, AOWs, New Jersey, Gun rights, Second Amendment, Luger, Confiscation, Safety, Litigation SPEAKERS Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2 Evan Nappen 00:17 I’m Evan Nappen. Teddy Nappen 00:19 and I’m Teddy Nappen. Evan Nappen 00:21 And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, we are right on the breaking news as we record this show, and that is the spectacular win on the National Firearms Act. It is the outcome of the Big Beautiful Bill removing the taxes on silencers, short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns, and AOWs that translated into the Big Beautiful Lawsuit. There were actually two lawsuits, which essentially put forward that if there is no tax, there can be no law, because the NFA is based on tax law as the jurisdictional basis for the federal government. If there’s no tax, then you can’t have a tax law, and hence the silliness, which is really just kind of funny, is the tax stamp says zero. So, how you get a tax stamp that says zero when there’s no tax? Leave it to the Government to create a tax stamp of zero. But now that’s changed. Evan Nappen 01:37 This is the most exciting change in, what is it? Ninety-six (96) years, to a challenge to the NFA. And it has very exciting ramifications. I’ll talk about how those specifically relate to New Jersey in a moment, but there’s lots of questions and lots of speculation and issues surrounding what this decision means. So, what happened was we had two lawsuits that were brought. One is the Silencer Shop Foundation versus ATF. There were other plaintiffs as well. The parties in the SSF lawsuit included B&T USA, Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition, Gun Owners Foundation, Gun Owners of America, Palmetto State Armory, Silencerco Weapons Research, Silencer Shop Foundation, the state of Alaska, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming, and several individuals. Evan Nappen 02:56 Then there is Jensen versus ATF. In Jensen, the parties were the Texas State Rifle Association, which is NRA’s Texas affiliate, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, FPC Action Foundation, Hot Shots Custom, and several individuals. The court in these cases applied an injunction to the parties, quote, where applicable, the parties, agencies, political subdivisions, members, and Page – 2 – of 12 customers, both current and future. This means that the protections of the injunction generally flow downstream in that chain of commerce. And by the way, I am gleaning this information from the NRA-ILA in their article, “What Does the Texas NFA Decision Mean for You?”(https://www.nraila.org/articles/20260812/what-does-the-texas-nfa-decision-mean-for-you) They’ve done a good job of essentially the preliminary breakdown here. NRA partnered with the TSRA to provide joint membership for those that are interested. Evan Nappen 04:02 So, what got enjoined? What statutes themselves got enjoined? Well, it was the NFA’s registration and approval requirements. Those were what were enjoined, and they were enjoined as to silencers, short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns for covered parties. The injunction also includes AOWs, Any Other Weapons for the SSF parties only. o, as far as AOWs are concerned, only parties, people that are parties to the SSF, which is going to mean members essentially of GOA and such, and the companies that joined in it, and possibly as well, including those states. Certain marking requirements are enjoined with respect to the Jensen case, while the effect of this portion of the injunction is going to take clarification from the Government. So, we’re going to have to wait and see on that. Evan Nappen 05:11 The further impact is that, which is perhaps more important than the statutes that are covered, are those that are not covered. So, under Title 18, it makes it unlawful for licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, licensed collector to sell or deliver to any person any short barrel shotgun, short barrel rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General, consistent with public safety and necessity. Now, in the past, that compliance was considered authorized or was considered authorization when there was an NFA compliance done itself. o, without further action by the Government, compliance with the former NFA procedures will likely still be required before transferring a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle. Then it goes on to explain that the analogous requirement for transportation of short-barreled rifles, short-barrel shotguns, was also not enjoined. So, authorization for interstate travel is still required. That’s where you have to get permission from ATF before you move with any of those firearms. Evan Nappen 06:31 However, ATF has proposed streamlining this process by currently pending regulations. Those are the regulations that we’ve discussed in the past that are looking to change by changing it in the CFR, which is the Code of Federal Regulations. The injunction also does not apply to existing SOTs, which is the Special Occupational Tax for dealers in NFA firearms. Now, it’s technically possible for non-SOT dealers to receive firearms from a distributor or manufacturer on an ATF Form Four. ATF will need to clarify if an SOT is required for dealers who engage in the business of dealing in these firearms. So there are still to be considered state laws, and that’s going to be an individual basis of each state’s laws about how they individually view these NFA items. And we’re going to talk about New Jersey specifically in a moment. Evan Nappen 07:33 NRA says moving forward, the Jensen case is one of three supported by NRA in their litigation partners with American Suppressor Association, the FPC, which is Foreign Policy Coalition, and Second Page – 3 – of 12 Amendment Foundation. Those cases, by the way, are Brown versus ATF and Roberts versus ATF. Judge Clark in Missouri heard motion for summary judgment in Brown, and they remain committed to expanding the injunction secured in Jensen. In those other cases, as NRA says, taking action under an injunction is not without risk. An injunction can be dissolved or stayed with very little notice. Please check regularly back for updates. While much remains uncertain with the injunction, the monumental nature of this cannot be overstated. This is the biggest win against the unconstitutional NFA in its 92 sorry math was off 92 year history, and it serves as a great example that the fight for our rights is never over. So, if we want to see some practical applications as to what’s going on when it comes to suppressors, it’s really fascinating. Evan Nappen 08:54 Now, of course, suppressors, silencers, are banned in New Jersey by state law. We are currently looking at challenges to New Jersey’s state suppressor ban, constitutional challenges to that. But for now, unfortunately, New Jersey citizens cannot take advantage of the changes if they are residents of New Jersey because of the state law prohibition that New Jersey still maintains. However, if you live in a free state, if you live in a state that is covered by this injunction, specifically through Silencer Shop, you can look at Silencer Shop’s website, (silencershop.com), which is very good, and it lays out the states that are good to go. Evan Nappen 08:55 If you live in a good to go state that is now covered by this injunction, for example, if you live in New Hampshire or if you live in Alabama, there’s the whole list of states that respect and understand this. If you live in any of those states, you can now order your suppressor and pick it up from the dealer locally, and when you go to the dealer to pick it up, there’s no form four. There’s no federal registration that needs approval anymore. There is no fingerprinting. There’s no notice given to local police of your acquisition. All that’s gone. All that gets done is a 4473. You know the same form you fill out for the federal government to buy a gun, and a NICS check gets done, an instant check. So, what it means is you’ll be able to go to your dealer, do the 4473, just like you’re buying a gun, and the NICS check gets done, the instant check. You get your approval, ad you walk out the door with your suppressor that easily. That is great, and it’s paving the way to finally get a full legal change to suppressors to make that, of course, eventually the nationwide standard. But for now, there is a boom, an explosion of silencer purchases. This will make it even easier, more convenient, more private, less of a hassle than ever before. This is extremely exciting. Teddy Nappen 11:17 There’s something very important to this fact. Going back to the, and I’m kind of extrapolating it to the assault firearm cases. One of the biggest things that is winning, that helped us fight, win that fight was the idea of common use. Where the AR-15 and all forms of their “assault firearms” were so popular that it was so much common use that it fell under the grounds of the Second Amendment. Evan Nappen 11:45 Right. This is going to explode even more common use, even though there’s millions of suppressors already, but it will absolutely aid to that. Now, interestingly, in New Jersey, sawed-off shotguns are a problem. Same with rifles; they’re a problem. However, Any Other Weapon, there are Any Other Page – 4 – of 12 Weapons, what we call AOWs, that are technically New Jersey legal, and this will change the game in New Jersey on AOWs. But we still need more clarification on how the feds are going to work it on AOWs. We don’t have that right now, but let me explain AOWs. Evan Nappen 12:32 Let me show you some common examples of AOWs. For example, pistol grip only shotguns. Now, don’t confuse AOW, which is Any Other Weapon, as an “Other”. Some of you may have Shockwaves in New Jersey, which are “Others”. Shockwaves are not AOWs. They’re Shock Waves. They’re “Others”. Others are different. But a pistol grip only shotgun is a short, non-face style scatter gun, right? But is reduced in overall length under 26 inches. Now, as you know, or should know, with a Shockwave, it’s not under the 26 inches. If it’s under 26 inches with only a grip, such as a custom compact 12 gauge, then we’re looking at that now. How those applied to New Jersey law become model specific. Of course, you still can have sort of shotgun, but State Police have approved for others. Vertical four grip pistols are also considered AOWs. So, a standard semi-automatic handgun or pistol format firearm equipped with a vertical front hand grip is considered an AOW. And AOWs have coverage under this, but how that’s going to apply now so that you don’t have to do the NFA and can simply operate under the injunction. We’re going to fill you in with more information as we get it. Evan Nappen 14:08 Smooth bore handguns. Those are AOWs. Classic examples of that, such as the H&R handy gun or the Ithaca auto and burglar gun. So, those custom smooth bores, it may very well now open up that category. Certain smooth bore pistols can, depending on their configuration, be New Jersey legal still. And if they’re even though they’re AOWs, if the injunction has its due effect, that’ll be easier in New Jersey on those. Also coming under AOWs are disguised or improvised firearms, concealable multi-projectile or single-shot devices disguised as everyday items like cane guns, pen guns, flashlights, or wallet guns, and of course those. Are all banned under New Jersey state law as covert firearms. So, even though you may seek relief federally in terms of the AOWs under the NFA, you’re not going to be able to acquire those because New Jersey has a specific ban on those in state law. Then there’s combination guns, certain compact over and under firearms with rifle and shotgun barrels, between 12 and 18 inches long, intended for single shots without reloading. These two can fall under categories of AOWs, specific models with specific determinations, and how this victory will apply, we’re still going to have to iron out the details since this is so fresh and so new. But there is going to be some relief that Jerseyans will be able to take advantage of, and in the long run, this is great for everybody as we keep the fight going on, battling the NFA. It’s a great victory, and it is definitely going to shake things up. Evan Nappen 16:10 And it has, though, some things to keep in mind that really require us to change this law permanently forever, and what I’m talking about is how we got to this point is something that still has a vulnerability to be changed back. Let me explain why. The reason for the injunction is because there is no tax, and because there’s no tax, then the legal logic opinion is with no tax, then a law based, premised, on the power of taxation can’t exist anymore or have its effect. This was used as a vehicle in the ’30s for the National Firearms Act. That’s what it was jurisdictioned upon. That’s what has been now eviscerated by the Big Beautiful Bill removing the tax on these four categories. he tax on machine guns still exists. We’ll get to that in a moment. Page – 5 – of 12 Evan Nappen 17:12 So, that’s what was the victory, but that was passed legislatively by what? By way of a reconciliation bill. A reconciliation bill deals with taxation and finance. Those bills can pass Congress with simple majorities. That is how the Republicans got it through, and by removing the tax on the NFA items with simple majorities, they did not face the challenge of a filibuster. Because they couldn’t filibuster. They being the communists. Oh, I’m sorry, the Democrats. Well, it’s the same thing. They couldn’t stop it. Teddy Nappen 17:51 Democrat Socialists. Evan Nappen 17:53 Right! Communist authoritarian nutbags could not stop this because of the filibuster being inapplicable to a reconciliation bill. That’s how we got to this point. But keep in mind, should the commies take power again, and you can substitute Democrats, socialists, whatever for commies, they’re interchangeable anyway. When and if that happens, then it would be at the moment within their power to reinstitute in a reconciliation bill that they do, assuming they have power through the Congress and the Executive who would sign such a thing. Keep in mind. If the Democrat, Socialist, Communists control both houses, and even with a Republican president, but a reconciliation bill that’s chock full of other things financially needed, they might even force the hand of an otherwise friendly executive. You know, President Trump, to still sign a reconciliation bill. A reconciliation bill that does what? Reimplements the tax. They may make the tax not $200, but maybe $200,000 or $5,000, or even if they just make it $200 again, or even $1 again, guess what? Now we’re back to a jurisdictional argument that the NFA is now applicable again. So, it matters who you vote for. Elections matter. They matter. They make a difference. Teddy Nappen 19:42 On the off chance, just on the extreme end, let’s say, you know, the pendulum swings, the Socialists take over and run it. Could they do what the ATF was doing prior with what was it the when going after people with like the forced restart trigger? Evan Nappen 19:59 We don’t know. We don’t know. They could do it. They could. Depending on what are they going to go and then try to round up suppressors that may have been acquired when there was no tax. If the law is suddenly back, or does it make it so that there’s an ex post facto argument to argue that it was legal at the time, but now any of these new ones need tax stamps, but old ones don’t. And then they’re going to be kind of like the way they ran magazines. It was before a certain period of time, and will they then be grandfathered or not? Because NFA didn’t grandfather. It had a new period of registration. But there is no new period ability unless the Secretary has the power to have a new registration period. So, I would assume if they do it, the Secretary would say, “Okay, there’s now an open registration period of ones you previously purchased. You’re going to have to register and pay the tax.” Remember that. So, this all can happen in the future. Page – 6 – of 12 Evan Nappen 20:57 But look, it doesn’t mean our behavior has to be based upon, especially you live in a free state, worrying about what communists might do in the future. But keep in mind, it still could happen. This is a great victory, but we need to take it further, and this will empower us to take it further, because it can help on the Second Amendment argument to knock these laws out. It can assist in that greatly. It can assist in legislative change once it’s done and out there, and people are purchasing them in this way. It makes it easier to pass federal laws to just make it the law and not just rely on the judicial action. So, there’s also potential future consequences that can run for us, not just against us. Regardless, it’s a great victory, but keep in mind these potential dangers that lurk. And unfortunately, if you live in New Jersey, there isn’t much here for you to take advantage of at the moment, but in the big picture, it’s working to protect our rights. Teddy Nappen 22:06 This is just a side note. I was thinking. I heard this term where just because you put a word in front of the other word, it doesn’t always change the definition. So, if I say Democrat murderer, that doesn’t change the definition of murderer. So, for them trying to rebrand the Socialists, like no, no, no, we’re not like that. We’re Democrat Socialists, not to every other socialist government that has failed. No, no, we’re different. We just want to abolish prisons and abolish police. Evan Nappen 22:35 Well, I love when they talk about ow communism, look communism just wasn’t done right, you know. It just hasn’t been done right. Well, I guess they’ll probably make the same argument for Nazism. Oh, Nazism just hasn’t been done right yet. Okay, so that’s all. That’s all. Just hasn’t been done right. I mean, no. We’ve experienced and seen what history has to say about these stupid ideas of Socialism and Communism and Nazism. We’ve seen it, and it doesn’t fly. As a matter of fact, look at what’s going on in Central America right now with the enormous economic change. They’ve been getting rid of their Socialist systems. Teddy Nappen 23:21 So, maybe that’s what happens when you defund USAID. Evan Nappen 23:23 Yeah, isn’t that amazing how these countries are suddenly doing great? I mean, you think about USAID. We were actually promoting Socialism to our central and southern Central American neighbors. It’s just nuts. It’s nuts that we would be doing this. Not to mention that the Democrat Party suddenly, coincidentally, is now 2 million in debt after USAID was folded up and shuttered. Teddy Nappen 23:52 The one I always laugh at is, I think it was the like it’s like something crazy, like $7 million to LGBTQAI plus in Serbia, which I guess worked because they’re like a lesbian, but it’s like it’s so oh my god, like and then well like it was like Sesame Street in Afghanistan, which okay. Page – 7 – of 12 Evan Nappen 24:14 Right and promoting DEI everywhere, which just is hardly a national interest, or for our national security, or what America’s founding principles are all about. But let me tell you about our friends at WeShoot. his week WeShoot is offering OA Defense 2311 Pro Elite, and that is a modern focus platform that blends the familiar 1911 style characteristics with contemporary design, premium construction, and competition-inspired features. There’s also the Special Ops Tactical STX 15. Now that’s an AR platform rifle with unmistakable SOT attitude, combining distinctive styling with purpose-built modern sporting rifle platform. Then there’s the Mossberg 990 Aftershock. Mossberg takes that unmistakable Aftershock concept into semi-auto territory, thereby creating a bold new addition to its defensive lineup. WeShoot has cutting-edge guns. They’re there for you. Make sure you check out WeShoot, which is an indoor range and phenomenal pro shop with great training. Located in Lakewood, New Jersey. Very easily accessible off the Parkway. They are a fantastic resource. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot. It’s where we got our training. It’s where we got our certifications. And if you go on the website, you can check out WeShoot. They have fantastic photos and just great photography. You can check out the latest from the father-daughter shoot and other great events that they’re running. And what is their many faces of two-way, where you know two ways for everybody, and they are pushing as well some really cool stuff, including being part of their photo shoots. You can reach out to social media at weshootusa.com for that. For any of the photo shoots that you do, this is a great place. They love their customers, and their customers love them. Go to weshootusa.com. WeShootUSA.com. And check out WeShoot right there in Lakewood. It’s a phenomenal research resource, and you’ll be glad that you did. Evan Nappen 26:53 Hey, let me also shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. The Bible of Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. It’ll help you from becoming a GOFU. You want to avoid that at all costs in New Jersey. They are there to oppress our rights and turn law-abiding gun owners into criminals. Beware, protect yourself. Get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com today. EvanNappen.com. You’ll be able to get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. And by the way, while you’re on my website, you can also check out the latest link to The Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs newsletter. They have featured yours truly, and my dear colleague Dan Schmutter and Scott Bach on the cover, and they have hilariously called us Second Amendment Heroes. And I’m assuming they’re talking about like submarine sandwiches when they did that. But regardless, you can check out their newsletter and check out the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. (anjrpc.org) You all should be a member of association. It is our state affiliate of the NRA by tied in with the great fights that NRA, as we’re talking about in Jensen, the NRA is like the new NRA, and they’re out in the forefront doing what NRA has done brilliantly in the past. They’re doing it again, and they’re working hand in hand with the other great gun rights organizations in our country. And it’s great to see the unity in these cases of us banding together to fight the good fight for what we all know and love and believe in, and that’s the Second Amendment. Teddy, what do you have for us in Press Checks? Teddy Nappen 29:16 Well, as everyone knows, Press Checks are always free. I thought I’d do something a little different, where I find, you know, a crazy article that I just could not pass up. It was too funny. This was coming Page – 8 – of 12 right out of the New York Post. Adolf Hitler’s $42 million Luger, the most valuable pistol in the world is at the center of a sensational court battle. Well, that’s one hell of a grabber of a title. Evan Nappen 29:49 And what do they say it’s worth? Teddy Nappen 29:51 $42 million. Evan Nappen 29:54 I wonder how they came up with that number. Teddy Nappen 29:56 So, this involves a court battle between an appliance repairman and a cop in Argentina. Evan Nappen 30:01 Arrrgentina. Teddy Nappen 30:04 Yeah, I know. You know, one of them said he was from the boys of Brazil, and I’m just joking. Evan Nappen 30:11 Uh huh. Well, it would make sense that it would end up in Argentina, wouldn’t it? Teddy Nappen 30:16 Yeah. The what is it? The what was the one guy they caught in Argentina? Evan Nappen 30:22 There’s been number of Nazis found there. Teddy Nappen 30:26 The famous one is the two Mossad agents scooped him up, got him drunk and put him on a plane. Then they ended up just hanging him. Evan Nappen 30:35 Right. Teddy Nappen 30:36 It was the, but it was one of if you go through it. It’s actually kind of crazy. So, it began where, if you caught the previous article of Adolf Hitler’s former home transformed into police station. Evan Nappen 30:39 How do they know? Oh, that was his former home when he visited. Page – 9 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 30:55 No, this is this is this is Australia. Evan Nappen 30:58 Austria. Austria. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s his former home in Austria. Yeah, well, he was from Austria originally. Teddy Nappen 31:06 So, going to that was Austrian authorities Wednesday open police station building where Adolf Hitler was born amid years of controversies. This is a renovation to send a message that they will not appeal to extremist groups. Yes. Evan Nappen 31:21 So, you can visit Hitler’s birthplace if you chose to? Teddy Nappen 31:24 If you ever get arrested in Austria. But to get to the it going off of that, where it was the weapon that described the holy grail of firearms was allegedly swiped during a SWAT style raid by a masked officer at repairman Juan Pablo Rupel’s home in Buenos Aires province in 2016. To go into more details, he inherited the haunting historic ghost of the Third Reich from his German great uncle and former Hitler bodyguard Hans Rupel, who is accused of stealing minor items such as plate, glasses, cutlery at the time of the raid. Evan Nappen 32:09 So, the claim is that this guy stole it from Hitler. Teddy Nappen 32:14 No, the claim is that he had committed some minor stealing in Argentina, but he had that was his pistol. So, he was never charged the over the allegations, mind you. But still, the gun that is a Luger Parabellum .45 ACP caliber. Number five of only five. Evan Nappen 32:37 It’s a .45 caliber Luger? Teddy Nappen 32:39 Yeah, yes. Only five in existence of the 1907 prototype forged by the late famed George Luger. Evan Nappen 32:48 Yeah, George Luger. So, Hitler’s Luger was one of the rare .45 caliber Lugers. Teddy Nappen 32:56 Correct. And this was only for Hitler’s provinces. That would make them invaluable. The guns there’s 1979 firearm owner license in Argentina National Registry, so they register firearms. It was marked as Nazi Angel of Death who lived for more than two years before fleeing the so the 1905. Page – 10 – of 12 Evan Nappen 33:25 So, what happened to the gun now? It got seized by the police? Teddy Nappen 33:30 Correct. How did that happen? So, from what it was said that Hans it said now again this is not Hans says it belonged to Hitler and he was taken when he and he took it when he went to Argentina in 1948. So, from when from that point where it was stolen after the quote unquote raid, it is now gone “missing”. Evan Nappen 33:53 Okay. Who stole it in the raid? What police raid? Teddy Nappen 33:57 One of the police. One of the police officers. Evan Nappen 33:59 So, this is essentially gun confiscation by police, and supposedly the most valuable handgun in the world is missing once the police got their hands on it. Right? Teddy Nappen 34:09 Buenos Aires Ministry of Security for and has demanding lawsuit for the compensation for the firearm. The court held by the agency liable for 15,000 plus interest, which also 15,000 just for the raid itself, for the actual unjustified raid. However, the lawsuit also adds in the 42 million where two cops who had led the raid on the home due to the quote-unquote trial prior. Rupert told the post of great uncles that the Luger was taken from him. Evan Nappen 34:48 Well, I’ll tell you what. This is a common thing in New Jersey. I’ve had many gun confiscations by law enforcement in which it always seemed that the most valuable firearm that the client possessed. I had a case where one was a rifle given by Theodore Roosevelt to a cabinet member that disappeared. I had another case where there was a trapdoor Springfield trapdoor carbine that was documented to Custer’s last stand, and was an Indian capture gun that oh that that that was sent to the crusher supposedly and destroyed. You see, and I’ve had many different gun seizures that have taken place, and for some crazy reason, it’s that really valuable gun that ends up not being accounted for, and I don’t know why I seem to see that pattern. Teddy Nappen 35:58 Yeah, and then just for clarification on the individual Hans Zurpel, he was the SS Division Labest Start. He was Hitler’s personal bodyguard unit during the Second World War, to which he later fled to Argentina in 1945. This has been confirmed. So it is confirmed that this guy was a bodyguard, and he was a pistol to Hitler and registered the gun under it, so it shows proof of documentation to the actual firearm that existed. So we know the gun existed. We know the guy has the credentials, so that proved that point as to who swiped it. Well, it’s one of the members of the ministry, as what the suit is being led to. Again, that’s what they’re alleging in their suit. Page – 11 – of 12 Evan Nappen 36:40 Yeah. Well, like I said, I’ve seen this done Jersey side where folks, what you want to do with your guns is make sure you have photos, and you have recorded your information about your guns. Do not keep your data with the guns. Because if they seize your guns, they’re going to seize your books and data. And it’s not unusual as well for them to take computers and such as well. So, if you’re going to have this and recordings of it and photos and all, you know, keep it on a thumb drive hidden somewhere, so you can access it. So, you can prove and document the guns that you had and what they were, because I’ve had the missing guns after a seizure more times than I can count. It is common. Teddy Nappen 37:38 I also recall wasn’t one of these pistols also had like the early idea of a tactical light, like where if you held the pistol, it was. Evan Nappen 37:46 Yeah, that was a very special Luger. They made too that had early lighting attached to the gun. Yeah, that was a German invention, so to speak. You know, they did have those way back. Yep, yep. So, these are, yeah. Well, there’s a lot of valuable firearms out there, and a lot that have providence to make them even more valuable. And I don’t know if this truly is worth $42 million for a handgun, but it’s definitely way up there as a very valuable historic piece. It is something where you need to take steps if you have any firearms at all to make sure that you’ve documented so you can prove ownership. And if guns do get stolen, either by criminals or police or both, then you need to know and be able to have that information to try to recover them. Teddy Nappen 38:52 If anyone is related to anybody who served as a Soviet Union soldier who hit the Berlin and may or may not have picked up a Walter PPK next to a dead Hitler, call us. Evan Nappen 39:07 Yeah, I think that gun is not accounted for. This so-called Hitler suicide gun. If, in fact, he did kill himself, which now there’s speculation that the skull they thought was his was actually a woman’s. There’s all kinds of who knows, and did he actually escape? And, you know, we could find about as many theories about whether Hitler’s alive as whether you know Elvis is alive and whether Bigfoot exists. I mean, this is one of the favorite topics of conspiracy theorists and what have you. But bottom line is, folks, you need to protect yourselves. Protect your property. Don’t be a GOFU. As a matter of fact, Teddy, what do you have this week for us for GOFUs? Teddy Nappen 39:49 Well, this comes from Not the Bee. Influencer shoots self in leg while filming instructional video outside a gun shop. Evan Nappen 39:57 Oh, an instructional video on how to shoot yourself in the leg. Page – 12 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 40:01 Well, how to properly, properly rack the slide, and while doing so, when he was going through showing it off, he racked it. He broke every rule – from treat every gun like it’s loaded, know where you’re pointing, keep your finger off the trigger. And bang! Shot the artery in his leg and almost died. Always a good idea. Evan Nappen 40:25 Oh, yeah. He came close to bleeding out because it hit the key artery there. And that’s because he wanted to do an instructional video on how to properly handle a firearm, where he proceeded to utterly and completely improperly handle a firearm. Similar to the law enforcement guy way back, you know, lecturing to the students how he’s the only one trained and safe enough to handle this gun properly. And right after he said that, he had an AD into his foot. I believe it was. Teddy Nappen 40:58 Yeah. He was a DEA agent, if I remember. Evan Nappen 41:02 Yeah, right. A DEA agent. Teddy Nappen 41:03 Yeah, and then he picks up the gun. Evan Nappen 41:04 So, this GOFU is a very practical and fundamental one, folks. Don’t forget the basic rules of gun safety. They’re there for a reason. They’re proven. Obey those rules. Don’t take it for granted. Follow the gun safety rules. If you don’t know guns and don’t know gun safety, you need to take a gun safety course. Let this hit home. You don’t want to be a GOFU, a Gun Owner Fuck Up. This has not only almost cost him his life. And in New Jersey, it would cost you your gun rights at a minimum under their Accidental Discharge law, because it was done without lawful purpose. You didn’t intend to fire it. It was in the 100 yards of a dwelling, which even a car constitutes as a dwelling. Leave it to New Jersey to do that. You’d be looking at a felony charge for shooting yourself in the leg. So, don’t be a GOFU. Be extra conscientious. We want you to be safe. You need to always be safe using the number one safety device ever invented, your brain. Keep that safety engaged at all times. Evan Nappen 42:30 This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Speaker 2 42:41 Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state. Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E303_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America's Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it's no wonder he's become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets. Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It's Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News. As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists. He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America. Email Evan Your Comments and Questions  talkback@gun.lawyer Join Evan's InnerCircleHere's your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America.  Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL.  Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits.   Email (required) *First Name *Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.var ajaxurl = "https://gun.lawyer/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php";

Watch the full episode on YouTube:We first covered Baseten last year when DeepSeek mania was at peak hype. Now they have raised a monster $13B round and become one of the new cohort of AI Infra decacorns that are (with Nvidia, Intel, and the semis complex) chief beneficiaries of the Inference Inflection. We return to Baseten at the peak of the 2026 edition of Open Weights debate. Ali has published a viral breakdown of Kimi K3:And since you last saw him, Philip has spoken at AI Engineer and written the definitive book on Inference Engineering spotted all over SF:Three years ago, inference engineering barely existed as a category.Today, it is one of the most critical disciplines in AI. Inference engineering inherently tackles a different question than standard model training: “How do you turn those weights from training into a product that is fast, reliable, and affordable at scale?” Focusing on these creates an entirely new optimization problem.In one recent GLM-5.2 experiment, quantizing more of the model actually preserved its benchmark quality while increasing throughput by 20%, because the errors introduced in different layers could cancel each other out.Inference is no longer just the final step after training. It is becoming its own engineering discipline, with its own research problems, infrastructure, and increasingly specialized roles.In this episode, Baseten's Philip Kiely and Ali Taha join swyx and Vibhu to explain what actually happens after a new open model is released and what it takes to turn “we generated a token” into a fast, reliable, production-ready API.We go deep on cache-aware routing, disaggregated prefill and decode, quantization, speculative decoding, KV-cache movement, model parallelism, GPU kernels, and the race to make frontier models up to 10× faster. Philip and Ali explain why inference optimizations can still produce gains of 20%, 100%, or even 200%; how quantization errors can cancel one another out; why identical weights can behave differently across clusters; and how Baseten grafted a Kimi vision encoder onto GLM-5.2 without changing the underlying language model.The conversation then expands beyond LLMs into NVIDIA Dynamo, mega kernels, Rubin, AI-specific chips, local inference, video generation, diffusion versus autoregressive models, and the enormous compute barrier to generating coherent long-form video. Finally, we explore the convergence of training and inference, continual learning through persistent KV cache, and the emerging loop where models help optimize the infrastructure that runs them.We discuss:* What happens when a 200,000-token request enters an inference system* Cache-aware routing and reusing previously computed KV cache* Why prefill and decode are increasingly handled by different GPUs* When dedicated deployments become cheaper and more reliable than shared APIs* How speculative decoding uses a smaller model to accelerate a larger one* Tool calling, structured outputs, and what LLMs actually do* What it takes to support a new open model on day zero* Grafting Kimi's vision encoder onto GLM-5.2* Retrofitting inefficient model layers with components from other architectures* Why models sometimes collapse into repeating the same token* How hardware, kernels, and race conditions create nondeterministic failures* Preserving model fidelity while making inference faster* How quantization errors can cancel each other out* Why inference optimizations still deliver gains of 20%, 100%, and 200%* How optimized serving can make a model up to 10× faster* NVIDIA Dynamo, KV-aware routing, and distributed model serving* Speculative decoding the speculative decoder* Why local AI is about making models less dumb while data-center AI is about making them less slow* Tensor, expert, and pipeline parallelism across GPUs* Hardware-aware model design, auto-tuning, and the case against mega kernels* Rubin and why inference is becoming a systems problem* Whether modern GPUs are evolving into programmable AI ASICs* Why enormous models like Kimi K3 require GB300-class hardware* Why open-source video generation still trails Veo, Kling, and other closed models* The quadratic attention bottleneck behind long-form AI video* Autoregressive video, real-time generation, and compounding quality drift* Why future video systems may combine autoregressive and diffusion architectures* Training for inference and inference for training* Continuous post-training, deployment, evaluation, and improvement loops* How GLM-5.2 helped optimize the kernels serving GLM-5.2 itself* Why faster networking could unlock dramatically faster decoding* Continual learning, KV-cache compaction, and persistent model memoryShow Notes* How to build a day-0 API for Kimi K3* 22580: From GPT2 to Kimi3, ExplainedPhilip Kiely* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philipkiely* X: https://x.com/philipkiely* Inference Engineering: https://www.baseten.co/inference-engineering/Ali Taha* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliestaha/* X: https://x.com/waterloointernTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction and the 200K-Token Prompt00:03:18 Dedicated Deployments, Speculative Decoding, and Tool Calling00:11:26 Launching Production-Ready Open Models00:19:06 Model Retrofits, Failure Modes, and Nondeterminism00:28:22 Quantization and Canceling Errors00:32:15 The Race to 10× Faster Inference00:40:48 Dynamo, Speculation, and Local vs. Data-Center AI00:50:18 Model Parallelism, Auto-Tuning, and Mega Kernels01:00:55 Rubin, GPUs vs. ASICs, and Custom AI Chips01:10:03 Giant Models and the Limits of GPU Memory01:12:42 AI Video, Quadratic Attention, and Autoregressive Generation01:21:47 Audio, Images, and Diffusion Models01:27:32 Training, Self-Optimizing Models, and Continual Learning01:40:06 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Baseten, Waterloo Intern, and Inference EngineeringSwyx [00:00:00]: Okay, we're here in the studio with Philip, old friend from Inference Engineering, the book, as well as Baseten and everything that you've done, you and I have done before, as well as Ali. Welcome.Ali [00:00:15]: Pleasure to meet you.Swyx [00:00:15]: Waterloo intern.Ali [00:00:16]: Waterloo intern, always.Swyx [00:00:17]: When did you get “Waterloo intern” as a handle?Ali [00:00:19]: As a handle? Oh.Ali [00:00:20]: I think the rebranding happened mid-March. When I saw it was open, I was like, “I have to take it. Up for grabs.”Philip [00:00:26]: The problem is that Ali is really good at his job and is not gonna be an intern much longer.Philip [00:00:30]: So we have to figure out who's gonna get the handle.Ali [00:00:33]: Well, I'll pass the torch over to the next intern.Swyx [00:00:34]: Oh, okay. It can be, like, you just pass it to another Waterloo grad.Ali [00:00:37]: To another Waterloo intern. No, bruh.Philip [00:00:39]: Yeah.Ali [00:00:39]: Intern.Swyx [00:00:40]: Intern, yeah.Ali [00:00:40]: And no.Philip [00:00:41]: You gotta get an intern from Waterloo.Ali [00:00:42]: Yeah, I've gotta get an intern from Waterloo.Swyx [00:00:44]: Right.Ali [00:00:44]: But they have to follow the path.Swyx [00:00:45]: Oh, it could, but it could come from Baseten, so it's like whoever Baseten gets from Waterloo.Ali [00:00:48]: Right.Swyx [00:00:49]: Has the title of Waterloo.Ali [00:00:50]: It stays in the ecosystem.Philip [00:00:51]: Exactly.Ali [00:00:52]: Halfway through the internship, you either get it or you're out.Philip [00:00:55]: You should also do, like, a big graduation ceremony where you change the handle.Ali [00:00:59]: Just say it.Philip [00:00:59]: For everybody.Swyx [00:01:00]: You guys are good at ceremonies, clearly. We had a nice launch of the book, very successful. But before we get into all that, I wanna start off with a fun question for you. Okay, you're an expert inference engineer. What happens when I send a long query, say two hundred thousand tokens into Baseten's inference? What's the process of query through GPU model routing, balancing, all that? What is all the stuff that we don't think about?Long Context Requests, KV Cache, and Cache-Aware RoutingPhilip [00:01:26]: With a long query specifically, the first thing that I'm gonna ask is, “Have you sent me this query before, or at least part of it?” and I really hope you have, because it's gonna be a lot easier for me and a lot cheaper for you. So the first thing that we're gonna look at is some cache-aware routing, where we're going to see, we probably have a number of instances, a number of replicas up serving whatever model you're hitting. We want to send this one to something with, number one, available prefill workers, and number two, ideally some cached input already there so that we can skip prefill on at least part of these two hundred thousand tokens. If you're doing two hundred thousand tokens, it's probably coding or a multi-turn agent or something where you would expect to have that cached. If you don't, we're gonna have to send it to a prefill worker. We've at least on certain models disaggregated prefill and decode, so you're going to have one set of GPUs that's solely going to process the input, create the KV cache, and get you your first token, and then that's going to be passed over to a separate set of GPUs, which is going to run decode. We're going to iteratively make those tokens. We're probably going to have some speculator model in front of that. I'm going to assume that you're doing coding, and because of that, our speculator model, which assumes you're doing coding, is gonna have a high draft token acceptance rate. If I'm wrong and you're asking me to summarize every Harry Potter book, it's gonna be slower. And then we stream that output to you and account for it, charge you, a couple of pennies and say, “Hey, would you like to send another one?”Swyx [00:03:04]: Except Baseten doesn't charge by pennies.Philip [00:03:07]: Well, yeah, we charge. I'm assuming that we're talking about the public model APIs. If you are setting up a dedicated deployment, then yeah, it's not pennies.Public APIs vs. Dedicated DeploymentsSwyx [00:03:18]: Yeah, one of the key differentiators when I was talking with Baseten initially was that people who want very high volume just need to rent by the box, ‘cause then it's up to you to figure out how to saturate the box.Ali [00:03:31]: And more often than not, it's, like, way cheaper if you're pushing, like, millions of tokens per hour, if you just pay per hour instead of pay per token.Philip [00:03:37]: Yeah, they do. I think that we've increasingly seen a lot of demand for the pay per token APIs, just because everyone wants to try open models, and then once they find a use case that's really sticky, then they move over to dedicated.Swyx [00:03:51]: Is there a best practice on when it's time to swap over?Philip [00:03:54]: Couple reasons. Yeah, reliability, that's a big one, right?Ali [00:03:57]: Like, if they have a very specific use case, they want you to train something specifically for them, like they want their own spec dec, for instance, for their own traffic.Swyx [00:04:04]: Spec dec is speculative decoding.Speculative Decoding and Custom SpeculatorsAli [00:04:05]: Speculative decoding, yeah.Swyx [00:04:07]: You have to explain.Ali [00:04:07]: Sorry. Like, speculative decoding is like, if you have a huge model, right? And so the model is going to be generating one token at a time every single turn, every single forward pass. So we attach, like, this little, like, parasite, like this layer that goes on top of the model, and this model just has to predict. It does three very fast autoregressive forward passes, and it will predict, like, three certain tokens, and then you do one forward stage over the entire original model in order to see if those predictions were correct or not, and then you accept them or you reject them. Now, this draft model is traffic specific, so if you, like, Philip said, if you're summarizing Harry Potter books, I can train exclusively that draft model on Harry Potter books, and I can guarantee you that I'm gonna accept the three tokens every single time. And so with that case, I increase your decode speed. I wouldn't be able to provide this to you if you're a shared endpointSwyx [00:04:53]: YeahAli [00:04:53]: ‘cause I have no idea if you're doing Harry Potter, if you're doing coding, if you're doing English. We don't know. Also, there was a thing in the book that mentioned that if they really cared about a specific threshold, chapter four, I think. Do you remember that?Philip [00:05:06]: Yeah. The things that you can do is you can set a specific, like, batch sizing, a specific, like, parallelism strategy if you're trying to optimize for, like, throughput versus latency. You can. Maybe a NVFP4 quant doesn't pass your benchmarks and you wanna run a model at higher precision, you could do that. There's just a bunch of reasons why you might wanna have your own endpoint and the biggest one, of course, just being, like, you don't have to deal with someone else doing a hundred million tokens of benchmarking traffic at the endpoint when you happen to be trying to serve your users.Swyx [00:05:40]: Yeah. I think one thing that is. That is a classic journey. Like, it's people is asking the, what happens when you type Google into the browser. Tool calling, is that just, you're generating JSON or is there more complication beyond that?Tool Calling, JSON, and Structured OutputsAli [00:05:58]: Certain customers that we have, they have their own post-trained models, and so they demand a tool calling that's not just, like parse a file or go find the weather. It's something that's very specific and you have to do post-training on this. And if the post-training on the model is not good or if the quantization after the post-training to get the inference to be fast, the model will struggle reading the JSON file and reading the tool calling. But it doesn't require its own like sandbox. It's not like it's going to use that tool calling to like escape a sandbox or like it doesn't have to be contained. It can just be a normal dedicated deployment. The challenge with tool calling more and more seems to be that the companies want certain tool calling which is a very sensitive thing to train. And because you're dealing with all of the JSON outputs, if it doesn't like close the end of the request in a very certain manner, you end up with a model that did the tool calling and like the thinking and so as a result of that, it didn't see the result and just hallucinated the result as it decoded. That seems to be the most challenging thing with tool calling, not really the sandboxes model.Philip [00:06:56]: Yeah, that's a challenge on the training side and then on the inference side, there's work that you can do to scope the possible output. So we published this at this point close to two years ago, the solution to this problem which is you make a state machine and you use that to constrain the output to a specific format. So this is the structured output problem. If you remember backSwyx [00:07:27]: Yeah, the specific grammar is,Philip [00:07:29]: Yeah, exactlySwyx [00:07:30]: GML had this thing.Philip [00:07:31]: Yeah. So it's like the old-school “make sure this is only JSON”, return only JSON orSwyx [00:07:38]: YeahPhilip [00:07:38]: Grandma's gonna die type of prompts.Swyx [00:07:39]: Is it BNF grammar? At some point OpenAI had released a thing that was like, yeah, if you want to constrain your output, write BNF grammar, back as NOR.Philip [00:07:47]: In our inference system, it's just a specified output format. And you get the guarantee that your output's gonna be structured along that format. And so applying that to tool calls can like help cut down on. You can still call the wrong tool or call no tool. It doesn't solve the certainty problem but it at least solves the output structuring problemSwyx [00:08:10]: YeahPhilip [00:08:10]: Within tool calls.Swyx [00:08:12]: And MCP is just another form of tool, right.Philip [00:08:14]: Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:08:15]: As far as there's no special thing there.Philip [00:08:16]: The thing I'm always like explaining to people is the LLM is not capable of doing anything. It's only capable of making suggestions of what to do and then if those suggestions are formatted in a certain way and applied to a system that knows what to do with them, then an action occurs.Swyx [00:08:32]: Yeah. Part of the fun stuff is, this is solved outside of tool calling too. Like in an agent loop if the output is not correct or you're right, like reasoning, tool calling was done in the reasoning trace, just be like, “Oh, I don't know what to do. Let me just try again.” And it might get there after a few tries. And on your point of training, sometimes this is harder in smaller models, so you don't have the same exact quality outputAli [00:08:56]: Right.Swyx [00:08:57]: When you just swap from a big model, right?Ali [00:08:59]: Yeah. I will say that, before, I think we need to go back to inference engineering proper.Ali [00:09:04]: But, I had expected that something would replace JSON because it's hard to stream JSON ‘cause JSON must be complete and you must have open and close brackets and everything. So it's hard to parse something or validate something while it's being streamed. So people invented all sorts of things that are like, I forget the name of some of these alternatives, but it's something like TOML, something like YAML. But JSON seems to be dominant still.Philip [00:09:30]: The JSON outputs aren't that long, right? Like you could have a long-- ‘cause tool calls also contain the arguments in them and perhaps for a certain tool you might pass like a very long argument. But my impression of the median tool call is that it's a relatively small number of tokens, right? So I would expect that speculators are generally fairly good at something as formatted as JSON. And so you would have like a pretty fast decode step there and that the streaming wouldn't be as valuable, but maybe I'm wrong about that.Ali [00:10:02]: I think you're also bounded by the software or that the model is gonna integrate with if the software is built with JSON for the tool calls or if the company that you'- if your customer says that this is how our software works and our tools are interfaced with JSON, you can ask them to like, change their software and say like, “Yeah, this is gonna be better for the model.” but like with the right training shouldn't be that much of a difference. Also more profitable if it outputs more tokens probably.Swyx [00:10:25]: Depends on your business model.Swyx [00:10:27]: It really depends. But I will say that, as a writer with like experience a lot with generated output, I do try to move from text to JSON text which is very long JSON, right? Like there's paragraphs in every field because I'm trying to structure it, right?Philip [00:10:44]: Right.Swyx [00:10:44]: I want you to first make factual statements, then make opinions then make bullet point summaries, have dates, have entity references have your sources for references, all these things. Anyway, so these are things that like I think people who really experiment with structural output have to really care about. But, let's, let's recurse up the stack a little bit. Before we started recording, you mentioned something really cool, which is that there's a lot of engineering that-- inference engineering that goes on when a new model provider releases a new model, right? So let's call it GLM-5.2, Kimi K3. I had previously assumed, especially if it's like, well, GLM 5 to 5.1 to GLM-5.2, like that you've supported them before. Is it that much work?What It Takes to Support a New Open ModelAli [00:11:26]: It's a lot of work.Swyx [00:11:28]: Yeah. Okay. So like, a lot of people, all you guys, right whenever a new model launch like, people rush to say like, “Oh, Hugging Face supports this, Fireworks supports this, Spacetime supports this,” and I'm like, “Yeah, of course we support it.” But what goes into that? What goes intoPhilip [00:11:40]: I think it's more than just support it too, right? It benefits the consumer a lot. Like I think it was with Kimi K2.5 or GLM-5.2 the latest, there was an inference war, right? X provider is at 90 tokens a second. The next day we're at 150. The nextSwyx [00:11:55]: I kinda kicked that off with the GLM-5.2.Swyx [00:11:58]: I wrote a Twitter article about. It got like half a million views,Ali [00:12:02]: Based on being numberSwyx [00:12:03]: YeahAli [00:12:04]: Or it's for something else.Swyx [00:12:05]: Yeah. Which,Ali [00:12:06]: Oh my GodSwyx [00:12:07]: Which then got everyone really excited about, hey, how can we, bend tracks a little bit further and,Philip [00:12:14]: There's a difference between support the model, as in I can make a token out of this model, and support a model, as in I have a production-ready API from this model.Philip [00:12:26]: Getting to the point of I can make a token out of this model is not that hard because generally the, open source inference engines, vLLM, SGLang of the world oftentimes even receive weights ahead of time, maintainers do, or the people making the model merge PRs to ensure support. So you generally can, just get it working on the standard open source stack without too much pain in most cases. The challenge is, every inference company is gonna have own proprietary stack. Some open source components, some in-house stuff. And for any arbitrary model, there's going to be some new stuff. Sometimes you get lucky, like K, two five to two six was, like, pretty similar.Quantization, Speculators, and Production ReadinessAli [00:13:16]: Yeah. It was pure continued post-trainingPhilip [00:13:18]: YeahAli [00:13:18]: If I remember correctly.Philip [00:13:19]: Even in those cases, there's still stuff you have to do. You have to redo the quantization work. You're taking the model from. Generally, these models are not released in NVFP4, and we want them to be in NVFP4 for maximum Blackwell compatibility. So we have to perform that quantization, and, calibrate the quantization to make sure that we're not causing any regression in the model's intelligence. And then we also have to train the speculator, as we've talked about. Generally, we have. We have ZDR, zero data retention on our model APIs, so we don't know exactly the traffic that people are sending us, but we know what's popular. We know that coding use cases are popular. We know that agents, agentic use cases are popular. So we can get public data sets that are representative of that traffic and train general speculators. Now, with speculators today, you need to train the speculator using the base model itself because you're getting hidden states out of the model from running inference on these specific prompts, and that is the training data you use to create the speculator. So there's that process which you need the real model weights for. And then there's of course just the process of, standing up all the infrastructure behind it, loading all this stuff, testing it. And then when there's a new model with a newer architecture, I think that, like, the DeepSeek models tend to be the most challenging as they have, like, the most novel architectural stuff going on, model after model. But every new model has something. Kimi K2 had. Oh, sorry, GLM-5.2 hadAli [00:14:53]: Sparse attention.Philip [00:14:54]: Yeah,Ali [00:14:54]: YeahPhilip [00:14:54]: the DSA.Ali [00:14:55]: Right. Which is brought from DeepSeek.Philip [00:14:57]: Yeah. AndAli [00:14:59]: So you can copy-paste then?Philip [00:15:01]: It kindAli [00:15:01]: I don't know how this works.Philip [00:15:02]: So, like we had to, like, build support for that into our runtime. And you're right, like it is really interesting the way that all of these open source labs borrow from each other. For example, like GLM-5.2 doesn't have vision. So something that, Haley, a guy on our team, if we could take a look at this, he, like, grafted the Kimi vision encoder onto GLM-5.2.Retrofitting Vision into GLM-5.2Ali [00:15:27]: We'll be training the projector.Philip [00:15:28]: Exactly. So if you think about, like, the encoder, there's the encoder, which is the part that looks at the image and turns it into latent information, and then there's the projector which likeAli [00:15:38]: You can say latent space. It's okay.Philip [00:15:41]: And then there's the projector that maps it onto, the model itself, and then there's the model weights. You don't wanna mess with the model weights because you run a chance of making the model dumber at something else for the purpose of giving it vision. So instead, Haley started with just a projector, which is only a handful of millions of parameters.Ali [00:16:02]: That would be, yeah.Philip [00:16:02]: Yeah.Ali [00:16:03]: Can you show the training one?Ali [00:16:04]: Like the way it groksPhilip [00:16:05]: YeahAli [00:16:06]: Very interesting.Philip [00:16:06]: And maybeAli [00:16:07]: That right therePhilip [00:16:07]: Maybe Ali, you should take it from here. You've got a betterAli [00:16:10]: Ooh, double the sandPhilip [00:16:11]: Understanding of this than I do.Ali [00:16:11]: Yeah. You can see, like, he. The way he trained this is really cool. At the beginning, he was training it using just like, “Here's a picture of a mountain. Can you describe what's in this mountain?” And that caused it just like the first, learning walls. Like here you can see this all we're trying to teach it is to translate the encoded. Like it's already taken the encoder from Kimi K. It's taken the image. It'Philip [00:16:31]: Yeah. FrozenAli [00:16:31]: FrozenPhilip [00:16:32]: With adapter.Ali [00:16:32]: Exactly.Philip [00:16:33]: Yeah.Ali [00:16:33]: So the brain is frozen and the eyes are frozen. It's just we're tryingPhilip [00:16:37]: AlignAli [00:16:38]: Interconnect between the eye and the brain, right? So the projector. And so you take the tokens and then he's like, “Oh, can you describe what's in this image?” And he's like, “Oh, it's a mountain,” or it's a person or it's a human, whatever the case is. But that didn't cause complete understanding. So he changed it such that every image was associated with a data set of questions. Like, does this image have a white male? Does this image have birds in the top corner? Does this image have a scientist in it? All of that stuff. And it would have to answer questions correctly. And using not just training on describing an image, but being able to answer question, another question, answer over time. Like you can see the grokking, which is like genuinely insane, that retrofitting vision into a large LLM can learn to that extent. And even for images that it doesn't perform well on, for instance, if you ask it a picture of like Stephen Hawking, “Who is this?” Maybe it doesn't get it, but it will say something like, “This is Albert Einstein.” Like it still understandsPhilip [00:17:25]: Close enoughAli [00:17:26]: That this is a scientist who is a man who has, some significant achievements, all that stuff. So that's like really cool.Philip [00:17:32]: Yeah. So, we've covered Hao Tian before, who the author of the LLaVA paper that did this, a while ago. And I think that's very foundational work for anyone who hasn't done vision work before.Ali [00:17:41]: Same with the CLIP and MetaCLIP, where you go from just captioning to building out questionsPhilip [00:17:47]: RightAli [00:17:47]: Off the image and how much better you can get performance.Philip [00:17:50]: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. But what's, what's so exciting about this is if you look at a model like this. Now, this is a little bit more of a research project. It's not. It got to 56% on MMLU Pro, I think. So not quite frontier. But if you're running this model, you haven't suffered any loss on your GLM-5.2 quality. If you don't have an image, it'll just behave exactly the way it used to. And ultimatelyAli [00:18:14]: Which in the inference code you literally do not include the other part, right?Philip [00:18:18]: Yeah. You would just skip the encoder if you don't have an image input.Ali [00:18:22]: Okay.Philip [00:18:22]: Just confirming.Philip [00:18:23]: YeahAli [00:18:23]: Does it affect a lot on the overall inference side? Like you're not adding much, you're adding a very small vision encoder. These are typically likePhilip [00:18:30]: They're super fineAli [00:18:31]: Less than a billion parameters, right?Philip [00:18:32]: Yeah. It's, - There's a little bit less standardization among vision encodersSwyx [00:18:37]: YeahPhilip [00:18:37]: So the support matrix can be a little bit, sparser. But overall, yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty minor component of the overall system. And ultimately what you get out of the system is all of a sudden you have Kimi Vision, GLM weights, and DeepSeek attention all in one model.Open Source Model Grafting and Franken-MergesPhilip [00:18:56]: And that's, I think, a lot of the power and beauty of open source, is that you can take all of these different components and combine them together into a system that's better than anyoneSwyx [00:19:05]: YeahPhilip [00:19:05]: Can be individually.Swyx [00:19:06]: People used to say that you would also do Franken-merges where you would take likePhilip [00:19:10]: YeahSwyx [00:19:10]: Layers from each model.Swyx [00:19:11]: Does anyone do that anymore?Ali [00:19:13]: Well, to your point previously when you were mentioning like, the work that goes into supporting a model when it first comes out, like GLM-5.2 or MiniMax M3 or whatever the case is. Sometimes you do have to like, you do have to switch out some things. Like, for instance, the MiniMax M3 head uses full attention, and with full attention you end up with this like insane bottleneck in spec dec ‘cause you're doing auto-regressive token generation for three tokens, and you're doing this like N squared over all of the tokens that are in your sequence. Your KV cache is like very large because it's not sparse, it's not top K. So we find it better to like, okay, we're gonna replace this, we're gonna replace this layer with a layer from another model that's using like GQA, for instance. And then just with the right training, you can get it to have the same acceptance rate. So it is very possible to retrofit layers from other models and very much needed. If a layer is like inefficient, the training just becomes the challenge, like how do you ensure that you train it properly? Which again to your earlier point is like the mesh between training and inference. As in like you need very good training in order to do fast inference. That's like, I feel like more and more becoming true.Swyx [00:20:21]: Yeah. Anything else on the support side when you say like get it to fully production ready?Loop Detection, Race Conditions, and Non-DeterminismPhilip [00:20:26]: Yeah. I think that there's also a question of just, we can test a model to a pretty extensive degree, but we're trying to get it out quickly and then you see a bunch of other people test it and you get interesting results. There was an issue with, GLM briefly where we had some like mode collapses where it would just output the same token over and over again for certain prompts on certain temperatures. Like once you expose an endpoint to the real world, there's going to be, so many more varieties of things given to it that you're able to, discover and patch things. So it's not just a, day zero process, it's then like for the first week, for the first month, if a model remains popular, like how do you both fix bugs and then continue to push the envelope on performance?Ali [00:21:21]: What do you mean you don't want your model outputting S?Swyx [00:21:24]: Is there loop detection on that stuff, by the way? It still happens like quite a lot, which is surprising.Ali [00:21:30]: We have like we, in our endpoint, like if a model was to output the same token like four plus times, we just cut the generation. We say like, “Oh, sorry, this-- Like try again,” or like we will reprocess the request. ‘Cause we know then, like if it, like if, yeah, it's four times the same token, it's probably collapsed.Swyx [00:21:45]: Yeah. Is there a way to opt out in case I really want that?Ali [00:21:48]: You want that?Ali [00:21:50]: I think there's a way that we have to handle it. I'm not exactly certain, but I feel like in certain models, like when they output something like you can imagine, like a table for instance, and so they want, they wanna draw like 12 dashes and 12 dashes. Yeah, I think there's a way for that to happen. I think we only do it on certain tokens. Like we exclude certain special characters.Swyx [00:22:07]: Yeah.Ali [00:22:07]: So we only do it on like certain like S is the most common almost. GLM-5.2Swyx [00:22:11]: OhAli [00:22:11]: And I think it was DSV 4 as well. Like you'd just have like looping issues where like you literallySwyx [00:22:17]: ItAli [00:22:17]: Just have like S.Swyx [00:22:18]: Yeah. Is there a special, something special about S? No, just randomlyAli [00:22:21]: It just seems to be the one token involved.Swyx [00:22:23]: Yeah. And it'Philip [00:22:24]: Is thereSwyx [00:22:24]: And it's only temperature 0Ali [00:22:27]: NoSwyx [00:22:27]: Even at other temperaturesAli [00:22:27]: Even at like 0.9 or whatever, it will still, it will still collapse.Swyx [00:22:30]: That's weird, right?Ali [00:22:30]: It's, it is an inference problem to be honest, like a software problem. Like oftentimes, the image you run will-- like NVIDIA will release an image for instance, and if we will upstream the changes from their latest TensorRT-LLM image into our stack, we'll find that it fixes it. Or oftentimes this will only happen in an inference engine that you're using like SGLang. But if you were to switch to vLLM, that isn't the case. So it seems to be like an extremely like deterministic software issue and not really a model issue. It's not like a weights problem. Like I'- we'll say like, “Oh, it's a problem with the quant. We did PTQ wrong,” right? But that isn't, that doesn't make sense because the same weights used with a different inference engine does not repeat the problem. And sometimes it's, the kernels that are being used in the backend have like these very subtle sometimes race conditions, where if you were to use this model hosted on one cluster, you will never get this problem.Swyx [00:23:19]: Oh my God.Ali [00:23:19]: But if you host it on a different cluster, you will. And the reason is the KV cache transfer from a node to node in that one cluster is using a slower interconnect than the node to node in another cluster. So that exposes the race, whereas in another cluster it doesn't. So then you end up just like, okay, this model is not gonna be hosted on this cluster. We're gonna host it on, another cluster because that cluster exposed that problem. But then it ends up with like, okay, is it the software? Is it the model weights or is it the hardware?Swyx [00:23:42]: There is a thing about this with temperature 0 still not being deterministic, right?Ali [00:23:46]: Right.Swyx [00:23:46]: Mostly because of hardware. Even at temperature 0 same model, you won't always get the same output.Swyx [00:23:52]: Even-- But I'm surprised by the race condition one because, I thought PyTorch was a graph that like guarantees that you at least, execute things in the right order.Ali [00:24:02]: Well, yeah, true. Like I'm not, I'm not saying that there is. Like well, you have things like PTL optimizations where like you can start a kernel before the end of the previous kernel, and that's like ‘cause you want to do that because there'sSwyx [00:24:12]: It's like pipeliningAli [00:24:12]: Expense. Exactly.Swyx [00:24:13]: Yeah.Ali [00:24:13]: But it'- But you don't do it cleanly. Like you overlap a little bit of the execution. No, it is very possible that the kernel itself, like that one block that is supposed to be running in this instance of time, that kernel itself has a race condition. For instance, like a missing barrier. Like often if you're designing a kernel and you want it to make it to be very fast, if you don't test it extensively, you'll, you'll have certain threads access data points from registers before they've been written to by other threadsSwyx [00:24:36]: YeahAli [00:24:36]: For example, because like your barrier is wrong or your synchronization was wrong. But yeah, like the testing itself is very difficult in those like, andSwyx [00:24:42]: And there's no like borrow checkerAli [00:24:45]: What does that mean?Swyx [00:24:46]: Like Rust. Like the. If you're trying to have like memory safety It sounds like a comparable problem.Ali [00:24:52]: Well, yes, but you're working in CUDA, right, NVIDIA GPUs. Like- You just need a higher level language like modular Maybe that's what modular is supposed to do. I don't know.Quantization Quality and Vendor FidelityVibhu [00:25:00]: How do you see keeping quality of the model? So you talked about all these steps of, okay, you gotta do quantization, train your own speculative decoderAli [00:25:07]: RightVibhu [00:25:07]: Run on different hardware. Looking at other model providers, okay, you kicked off a inference speed race on the consumer end. What goes into keeping quality the same across them, right? Sure, you can run benchmarksAli [00:25:22]: YeahVibhu [00:25:22]: But, like, how do you determine how much quantization are there standards? What goes intoPhilip [00:25:27]: There's a few things on quality. Most inference optimizations are lossless. KV caching, for example. You are just recomputing or preventing recomputing the same values. Speculation, of course, if a draft token is wrong, it gets rejected. The main lossy optimization is quantization. And that really comes down to, number one, data format, number two, which parts of the model you choose to quantize, which layers, and number three, like doing a lot of calibration on the quantized weights, to ensure that you're preserving all the outliers. There's other tricks that you can do, though. A big one is long context, ‘cause one thing you asked at, right at the beginning is, “Oh, what's gonna happen if I send a 200,000 token request in?” So with a long input sequence, you need to, store a lot more information. You need to process a lot more tokens. And so even if a model has a context of a certain length, you might, as an inference provider, choose to build an API with a shorter context length, and of course a full length one as well. Because if someone doesn't need the full million token context, for example, you can get them better performance. I don't know if that's exactly like quality of the model. The way that I think about quality is to what degree are we faithfully serving the original model? If you think of a golden implementation of a model that performs exactly the way the model is designed to perform, I think of quality as how close are we getting to that, 100% fidelity of the model.Philip [00:27:13]: You can also, of course, think about quality from the training side and how do you push yourself past 100%. But when I think about purely inference optimizations, it's getting faster while staying as close to that 100% fidelity mark as possible. And certainly our standard internally is that, like you should not be able to tell the difference between our API and a, official API. I think Kimi in particular does a good job of vendor benchmarking hereAli [00:27:41]: YesPhilip [00:27:41]: Where they haveAli [00:27:42]: They released an actual vendor benchmark.Philip [00:27:43]: Exactly, yeah.Ali [00:27:44]: ‘Cause they accused, some people, Amazon? There was some provider that was not doing very well on Kimi's benchmark.Philip [00:27:50]: Yeah.Philip [00:27:51]: So, with Reflect we probablyVibhu [00:27:52]: This was a long time ago, right?Philip [00:27:54]: No.Ali [00:27:54]: Yeah, like threeVibhu [00:27:55]: They alsoAli [00:27:55]: Four, five months agoVibhu [00:27:57]: This also happened with, I don't remember which model, but they pulled out quite a few, and then they started a whole chart about this. It might have beenPhilip [00:28:03]: Kimi Vendor Verifier.Ali [00:28:04]: Yeah.Philip [00:28:05]: Yeah.Ali [00:28:05]: Yeah, ‘cause you, ‘cause you'd be pissed, right? Like if you'Philip [00:28:07]: Yeah.Ali [00:28:07]: If like if I'm a consumer and I'm using like Amazon's endpoint for instance, and I've used Kimi and I'm like, “Oh my God, like this is bad,” I'm not gonna say, “Oh, Amazon quantized the model in a bad way.” I'm gonna say, “Oh, Kimi sucks.” Right?Philip [00:28:17]: Yeah.Ali [00:28:17]: So it seems like that makes sense.Philip [00:28:19]: Yeah, they care. They care.Vibhu [00:28:21]: Justifiably.Ali [00:28:21]: Yeah, justifiably.Vibhu [00:28:22]: This is probably a stupid question, but just checking, has anything improved from main quantization?Philip [00:28:28]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:28:28]: Like, is quantization always strictly worse?Ali [00:28:30]: Well technicallyVibhu [00:28:32]: NoAli [00:28:32]: It's a lossy. QuantizationPhilip [00:28:33]: YeahAli [00:28:33]: Is a lossy, it's a lossy implementation.Philip [00:28:36]: Speed improvesVibhu [00:28:36]: Speed improves.Ali [00:28:37]: It the number, likeVibhu [00:28:38]: No, I' always look for inverse scaling laws.Philip [00:28:40]: Yeah.Ali [00:28:40]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:28:40]: This is something I learned from Noam Brown, where like things that normally act in one direction sometimes do.Philip [00:28:45]: Well, technically when you run a benchmark, because these models are deterministic, sometimes your,Ali [00:28:52]: YeahPhilip [00:28:52]: NVFP4 quant is like, two basis points higher than yourAli [00:28:56]: No, it's noise. It's noise.Philip [00:28:57]: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, yeah, it's, it's within. That's why I always say within margin of error.Philip [00:29:01]: And I stopped saying that because everyone assumes that what is, well, within some margin of error, we're barely inside of that to the worst, so we're saying. But yeah, sometimes it's just like, gives you a higher output score. But like Ali said, that's noise. To my knowledge, you're not necessarily making the results better. You're just trying to, again, like keep your fidelity as close to 100% to the original model.Layer Selection, KL Divergence, and Better QuantizationAli [00:29:27]: There is, to your point, research that we did on MP. I don't know if you are able to pullPhilip [00:29:31]: YeahAli [00:29:32]: A tweet we did. One of our research interns, Joshua, I think it's a tweet on how we have 20% better quantized GLM-5.2 than NVIDIA. Essentially what we found throughout like this month research is, okay, quantization is a lossy. It's. You're compressing the data from, occupying 16 bits to occupying, four bits, for instance. And so you're losing some information, and you're trying to minimize that. And so when I say that I'm gonna quantize the model, my job becomes how do I find the layers that I can quantize, and how to find the layers to not. For instance, with image models, I don't quantize modulation layers, and I don't quantize out projections because those two are. Like out projection is what you see as the user. Modulation is what the model sees or understands. Right, exactly. And so to his paper, do you have the. It doesn't have the. Yeah. It's a long paper. I don't know if I can findVibhu [00:30:25]: If there's a part to search or it's probably in the thread.Ali [00:30:28]: It's probably in the thread.Vibhu [00:30:29]: Yeah.Ali [00:30:29]: But the long and the short is it is very possible that quantizing more of the model makes the results. Like if I have a model that I quantize layers one, five, and 10, and another model where I only quantize layers one and It is possible that the model in which I quantized more information is going to perform better because the quantization errors have canceled out. And so what Joshua showed in his mathematical proof where he had like a verifier in, is that you can predict which layers are going to have quantization errors that will cancel out with each other, and you choose to quantize those layers. And so the result of doing this mathematical quantization is you end up with a model that's 20% more quantized than another provider, so you get 20% more throughput of it because there's more layers than running an NVFP4, and your quality is better than that other quant because the layers that you chose to quantize have their errors cancel out, like one layer skewed to the right one layer skewed to the left, one layer skewed to the right. Your final logits distribution is more similar to the original distribution of the model, so you have better fidelity. And so the way we proved this was with KL divergence. So instead of just scoring on the benchmarks, we scored the KL divergence between the logit distribution of the quantized model and the logit distribution of the original full precision model, and we showed that with this technique we get. If your probability distribution on the logits which token it wants to select is more of the same as the original model, you're probably gonna end up staying true to the original model. So yeah, so it seems like previously before this, it seemed like the industry was, well, the more you quantize, the worse it's gonna be, ‘cause the more loss you introduce. That's not exactly, not necessarily true. So yeah, doesn't improve it, but can cancel out.Philip [00:31:57]: I think it might be this, but reminds me a good bit about pruning where you can prune off certain layers.Philip [00:32:03]: But very interesting. Didn't know this was a whole paper you guys put out.Ali [00:32:06]: It's. Fun fact, it was originally 72 pages, this paper, and then we decidedPhilip [00:32:11]: WowAli [00:32:11]: We can't tell. We couldn't release it. So it's now 45.Swyx [00:32:15]: Still 39 pages, so very substantive. We talked about evals and all these things and, like what's possible in terms of speedup? Like it's like probably like the numberInference Speedups and BenchmarkingSwyx [00:32:25]: Thing that people do wanna care about, and it's something that you wrote about in your post. Like official API is 70 tokens per second, and you push it up to 90. Is that like a normal thing?Philip [00:32:36]: So what's cool about working in inference, the reason that I think inference is going to be a useful place to do engineering for a long time, is that if you look at highly optimized domains like, say, finance, if you're in finance, you measure how much better you got in basis points. It's like, “Oh, I got five basis points better, like twentieth of 1% better,” that's huge news because everything is so optimized. When we publish optimizations, it's 20%, it's 100% it's 200%. So there's still probably like a lot further to go, honestly. Like you'll, you'll know that inference is pretty much solved when researchers start publishing about how they got 1% faster at something.Swyx [00:33:19]: Which by the way, because I am from the finance background, in the ‘70s, that was the margin at the time. When you did quantitative finance research, you would findAli [00:33:27]: And like 20%, tens of percent.Swyx [00:33:29]: That's. Yes.Philip [00:33:29]: Yeah.Swyx [00:33:30]: And now it'Philip [00:33:31]: Tiny fractionsSwyx [00:33:32]: For those people interested, look up Andrew Lo's paper. He had a really interesting illustration of quant, stat arb, distribution, narrowing down from like those kinds of 20% differences in the ‘70s, down to nothing today, which is very cool.Philip [00:33:48]: Exactly, and we're at the beginning of the same type of thing. Now benchmarking is hard. I think anyone will tell you that, and benchmarking provider speeds is hard because there's so many variables that go into it. What hardware are you using? How much load do you have on the system? What's the exact nature of the prompts and input and output sequence lengths? All that stuff. But overall, when you start stacking these improvements, you're looking at multiples. You can look at it. The most common form, of course, is TPS, tokens per second, which is bad naming by us in the industry, ‘cause there's two tokens per second. There's tokens per second, the throughput number, and the latency number.Ali [00:34:31]: TTMT, yeah.Philip [00:34:32]: Like total tokens per second out of the, out of the GPU as a throughput number. Most people only care about tokens per second as the latency number, which we should call ITL, intertoken latency, but we don't.Philip [00:34:44]: Anyway, so you can imagine a standard API without many optimizations for a 1 trillion parameter model operating somewhere in the 30 to 50 tokens per second range for reasonable traffic profile. And we generally see the goal of, pushing to 10X that. But, not necessarily day zero, but by stacking enough optimizations, if you have, say like four optimizations, each of which doubles performance. Or sorry, three optimizations, each of which doubles performance, then you stack that up, that's an 8X gain. That's the order of magnitude that we're working with in this space. We're trying to make things substantially faster, not just go from like 70 to 90.Swyx [00:35:38]: Are you saying you've. You have done that?Philip [00:35:40]: So let's say you have as a reasonable baseline, 30 or 40 tokens per second. You can achieve 10X that. So like on GLM-5.2, if you run it unquantized, perhaps on H100s even, and you're just using an off-the-shelf inference engine with no particular optimizations, no speculator, nothing extra around like KV routing, no disaggregation, you're, you're probably, yeah, looking at that like 30 to 40. You think that's like a reasonable baseline?Swyx [00:36:12]: Right. Right.Philip [00:36:12]: To get to something like 10X, there's a lot of trade-offs that you're making. If we're running at more like a 300, 400 tokens per second range, you are using the best hardware possible. You have a optimized speculator. You have done all of your quantization work. You are Seeing a pretty high cache hit rate. You are running with a reasonably small batch size and a parallelism configuration that is tuned for latency versus throughput, but it is possible. So the spreads that you see if you, like, go on artificial analysis or you go on OpenRouter and you look at, the worst provider to the best provider, oftentimes can hit that range. 10X is of course very aggressive. It's oftentimes maybe more of a four to six times improvement. But that's the performance that makes us really excited, is when we can get these huge gains, not just go from 70 to 90 tokens.Stacking Optimizations: NVFP4, Speculation, and DisaggregationAli [00:37:19]: It's also, like, hardware dependent. Like, ifPhilip [00:37:20]: YeahAli [00:37:20]: If you have a thing where you're serving it on just, like, a node of H100s and then you throw, like, you shard the model across, like, four nodes of B200s. Like, you can definitely increase the speed with just throwing more hardware at it. Like, normalizing for the same exact hardware and the same number of GPUs.Philip [00:37:35]: Yeah. Then you're looking at, like, a two to 4X improvementAli [00:37:38]: Right. RightPhilip [00:37:38]: Depending on the inference optimizations. So yeah, it's. Some of it's, what's the call, and some of it's who's the driver.Vibhu [00:37:46]: If you break down the two to 4X, say the example is run GLM-5.2Ali [00:37:51]: YeahVibhu [00:37:51]: On B200sAli [00:37:53]: YeahVibhu [00:37:53]: Single node, right? What's, like, the cost trade-off for effort to get, like, the last bit of juice out versus what should people just think of, right?Ali [00:38:01]: Spectre quantization. Yeah.Vibhu [00:38:03]: Spectre quantization.Ali [00:38:04]: That's, that's, that's like 95%. LikeVibhu [00:38:06]: And how far does that get you? And how easy is that for the average person to do? So say right I wanna throw the weights of GLM-5.2 on a node of B200s, how easy is it to find speculative decoder- decoder model or already quantized model? How much work goes into it?Philip [00:38:23]: If you're doing it up front, it's quite a lot of work. If you're doing it today, there's going to be people who have published things that you can just, you can just grab some NVFP4 weights. You can grab a speculator. Yeah, if we're thinking about, like, what are the 2Xs we're stacking, going from, BF16 to NVFP4 is, it's not quite a 2X, right? It's like. I think it's about, like, 30 to 40%, from 16 to 8, and then another 30 to 40% multiplied from, 8 to 4. So that doesn't quite get you a 2X, but, like, roughly a 2X. Speculator, roughly a 2X. Disagg on top of that if you're able to get enough hardware and put enough traffic through it, another roughly a 2X. And then you add in some, double-digit percent increase from having just a better runtime with, the latest kernels and stuff behind it. And that's how it stacks up.Ali [00:39:21]: YeahPhilip [00:39:21]: So building each of those, like, building the, quantized weights is, for someone who really knows what they're doing, hours to days of work. Building the speculator, again, like, hours to days of work. And the, disagg setup, hours to days. Well okay, but like once you haveAli [00:39:39]: Once set up. Once set up. YeahPhilip [00:39:40]: Yeah, getting disagg working for the first time, I'm saying, of course, is very difficult.Philip [00:39:44]: The marginal implementationAli [00:39:48]: Like, if you're just grabbing, like if you are a person, like just a normal consumer who has access to, like, a node of B200s and you're wondering, “How can I just host it myself?” You don't need to quantize the model yourself. There's always gonna be, like, an open source quantized checkpoint. NVIDIA's gonna push one out if no one else does. You. Usually, the providers will have their own spec dec that they've trained as well. You don't need to train your own spec dec. You can just use that as well.Philip [00:40:09]: Yeah. Like, GLM-5.2 has its own MTP.Ali [00:40:13]: Right. Right.Vibhu [00:40:14]: What's multi token prediction?Philip [00:40:15]: Yes.Ali [00:40:16]: I'm justVibhu [00:40:16]: Can you explain that?Ali [00:40:16]: I'm just an expert.Ali [00:40:18]: I can do it for you in case I get it wrong?Vibhu [00:40:20]: No.Vibhu [00:40:21]: Yeah, you should correct if we're wrong, but their multi-token prediction can be used for self-speculative decoding.Ali [00:40:27]: I'm not sure. I'm not gonna correct that.Vibhu [00:40:28]: Okay. I'm semi-confident in thatAli [00:40:30]: Okay. YeahVibhu [00:40:30]: But someone can check. But it's useful to paint the story of, okay, not just the average person, but say a company wants to switch from serverless inference I wanna throw this up on. I wanna rent some GPUs, throw it up. These are the steps you take to do significantly faster than just put it behind vLLM.Ali [00:40:48]: Right.Vibhu [00:40:49]: I was waiting for a mention of Dynamo.Vibhu [00:40:51]: I feel like, that's supposed to be the baseline that you measure against.Dynamo, KV Routing, and Disaggregation ToolkitsPhilip [00:40:55]: I would think of Dynamo as less of a box system and more of a toolkit for building with. So when we talk about doing aware routing, when we talk about doing KV offloading, when we talk about doing, PD disaggregation, Dynamo fundamentally is. By the way, Dynamo is an open source library from NVIDIA.Ali [00:41:17]: We've done a pod with KylePhilip [00:41:18]: OkayAli [00:41:19]: Kyle Cranin.Philip [00:41:19]: Cool. So then your listeners know then that it supports all the different inference frameworks. And it is multi hardware, which is interesting.Ali [00:41:28]: But it's just a router, it's not like an optimizer layer.Philip [00:41:30]: Yeah. All it does, like, what Dynamo is good at, it is a library for moving information around your cluster, around your hardware. So if you have, KV cache on one place and you need it to be somewhere else, Dynamo coordinates NIXL for you to move that around.Philip [00:41:49]: That doesn't mean that, like, out of the box, you just say, “Pip install Dynamo,” and then you get, like, a massive performance speed up. It's more of a developer toolkit.Ali [00:42:01]: Yeah. I would have said it would. It comes with a set of defaults that you can then swap out.Philip [00:42:06]: It does. If the industry at large, I think, was, like, rolling out all of these deployments, standard, then I think it would be, like, a credible baseline. But, we've got to, we've got to benchmark against, like, what we're seeing in the wild.Speculative Decoding Methods: Medusa, EAGLE, n-Gram, and Spec-SpecVibhu [00:42:23]: I did wanna talk a little bit more about PD disagg, because that is probably, like, number three after quantized and speculative decoding. In your book though, I was just gonna pull out the book.Philip [00:42:31]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:42:32]: Like section 522 on Medusa, 523 on EAGLEPhilip [00:42:35]: YeahVibhu [00:42:36]: 524 on gram.Philip [00:42:37]: It's 55, would be disaggregationAli [00:42:42]: Yeah. Well, no, I just wanted to dwell a little bitPhilip [00:42:44]: YeahAli [00:42:44]: The other. Like, so what do you choose to include? What do you choose to not to include? Because there was all these other techniques.Philip [00:42:51]: Yeah.Ali [00:42:51]: Are these still relevant? Because I think they came out, like, a year and a half ago maybe.Vibhu [00:42:55]: Medusa is quite old.Philip [00:42:56]: Yeah, Medusa's old.Ali [00:42:58]: It was old.Vibhu [00:42:58]: But is it in the book as a good, here'sPhilip [00:43:01]: BaselineVibhu [00:43:01]: Baseline vanilla understand it?Philip [00:43:02]: Like you should know this.Vibhu [00:43:03]: Like I read the paper, I'm like, “ it makes so much sense.”Philip [00:43:05]: Yeah.Philip [00:43:05]: So with the book, I had a couple goals. One was to give people just a working vocabulary for the space as a whole, and the other was to give them some intuition about how each of these techniques works. As I mentioned in my AI Engineer talk, which is the first public addendum to this, the speculation space has moved much faster than everything else. So yeah, even at the time that I wrote the book Medusa, I very much included as a way for people to understand how the space evolved rather than what the most modern technique is. And now of course, there's DFlash, dSpark. There's, there's newer techniques even than EAGLE, although EAGLE is still very commonly used.Ali [00:43:51]: SpecSpecta.Philip [00:43:52]: Yes. Speculative decoding.Vibhu [00:43:54]: What canAli [00:43:56]: Oh, it's a paper by Tri Dao and it's like, it's doing speculative decodingVibhu [00:44:00]: HuhAli [00:44:01]: For the speculative decoder.Philip [00:44:02]: Oh, in spec- oh my God.Ali [00:44:02]: It's literally just an another. It's like, yeah, that's the most simple way to explain it, and it seems like he got trivial speed ups there. But it seems that the complexity with training, it's almost like in our mind at least, it's almost as complex as training GANs. Like it's like a very delicate balance and oftentimes you, it's just but yeah, it's literally speculative decoding on speculative decoding.Vibhu [00:44:21]: Speculative.Ali [00:44:22]: Yeah. We saw this paper.Vibhu [00:44:24]: It's interesting, right?Ali [00:44:24]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:44:24]: I wouldn't even expect it to be very particular to train, I wouldAli [00:44:29]: Right.Vibhu [00:44:29]: The naive part of me is like, okay, train speculative decoder.Ali [00:44:32]: But like, and it makes sense, like the whole idea of speculative decoding is you. It's like, it's like almost like the iPhone auto predict version but for a normal model, right? Like you're just, you're just, generating three tokens and you're like, okay, I'll do prefill on them. And so you save those three turns for your original model. Now your speculative decoder is doing three turns of auto regression, so why not just have an even smaller model?Ali [00:44:53]: The other question there is what are the size of speculators? So say forPhilip [00:44:58]: Right. It's like a billion parameters.Ali [00:45:01]: Like for MiniMax, it's. Yeah. It's like one layer. It's like one 60th of the original model usually.Philip [00:45:06]: Yeah. I think we should do a paper when we get back to the office.Philip [00:45:10]: SpeculativeAli [00:45:11]: SpeculativePhilip [00:45:11]: Decoding.Ali [00:45:13]: No, it's, it does seem like how, when do you stop? But then it also seems like if you're able to train spec-spec decode for instance, right? Like if you're able to have a small model that is accurately predicts what the intermediate speculator is gonna predict, that is able to predict what the original target model's gonna predict, then why not just use that smallest model directly, right?Vibhu [00:45:34]: Yeah. This isAli [00:45:35]: Like it seems likeVibhu [00:45:35]: Adjacent to the routing problem.Ali [00:45:36]: Right.Vibhu [00:45:36]: Yeah.Ali [00:45:36]: Right.Philip [00:45:37]: The thing with speculators is one of the practical constraints on using them is that you do have to run a small model on the same hardware that you're running the big model on. There is a orchestration and resource competition problem inherent in that, and that is one of the constraints on speculation in general, is that draft tokens cost resources to create and cost software complexity to manage. And so if you have like infinitely recursive speculators, you add in quite a bit of that complexity on the actual implementation within the inference engine as well, not just in the training process.Vibhu [00:46:17]: I was gonna say, I would wonder if you could do similar, like distillation and pruning of, it's the same thing, it's just a model. Can we not just distill a lot of the weights, quantize the speculator, out of my domain? The question that also comes up is, this is all for big server workloads, right? How much of this applies to, say I have this MacBook, I wanna run Gemma really efficiently. Similar problems, not the same?Local AI vs. Data Center InferencePhilip [00:46:45]: Pretty different. I talked to Selo, about this on his podcast a couple weeks ago. The difference between inference engineering for the data center and for production workloads versus inference engineering for local AI, is that we start with fundamentally like different constraints and different goals. With local AI, it's how do I fit this model onto my hardware and then make it less dumb? And with data center influence, it's how do I load this model and then make it less slow? And we care about less dumb, and they care about less slow. But the local AI inference engineering ecosystem, I think has a lot for us to learn from in the data center space. They are experts in various forms of quantization, including dynamic quantization that we just don't touch, in the pruning, in the distillation, in the, layer removal. There'Ali [00:47:42]: Layer removal matters less.Philip [00:47:43]: Yeah. There'Ali [00:47:44]: No one loves pruning really.Philip [00:47:45]: Yeah. Well, but the, but they doVibhu [00:47:46]: Which is surprising, right? But that's, that's a whole different thingPhilip [00:47:48]: Just to fit something on the laptop.Ali [00:47:50]: Right.Philip [00:47:50]: So yeah, it's a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting space. Not necessarily that like their techniques make sense for us to do in the data center, because we have different resources and different goals, but more that the process as well as the openness of that field is something to, admire.Ali [00:48:12]: Yeah. Like to your point, like, certain optimizations that would. Like for instance, Turbo Quantum Sharper, like it made such huge hype on that and we did like a whole deep dive on Twitter and like said, what is it? How does it work? Why is it good or not? And it took off and it was implemented on local devices because your memory bandwidth is so slow on like a MacBook, for instance. But try putting the same thing on like an NVIDIA GPU on a B200 Turbo quant would not be. Like, it would not be used. Like, NVIDIA - Like, NVIDIA made it clear that this is not a good optimization, and we've seen it firsthand where the overhead of doing dequantization, quantization of, in the kernel itself with turbo quant kernel, each end is much slower than the time that you save from doing the bandwidth. ‘Cause on the B200s, you have like 3.5 terabytes per second. You don't need decrease the storage that much. You don't need to do, FP4 KV cache. You don't need to use a requant. There's, there's, there's better optimizations to be made. But on Edge devices, it's extremely important, it's extremely useful. So, seems to be, like, different optimizations there, but then they're all uniquely combined with like all you wanna quantize the model, you wanna do speculative decoding, like certain common prefixes with bothPhilip [00:49:18]: Principles.Ali [00:49:19]: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.Philip [00:49:20]: They also do a lot of work on, model parallelism, especially over, heterogeneous topology, where you have, some sparks and they are wired together with, Ethernet, DGX sparks.Ali [00:49:35]: Yeah, this is the Exo Labs guys.Philip [00:49:36]: Yeah. You have, a nu

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Episode 301-Freedom Always Finds a Way Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode Transcript Page – 1 – of 12 Gun Lawyer — Episode 301 Transcript SUMMARY KEYWORDS loopholes, firearm law, NFA trust, switchblade knives, forced reset triggers, machine guns, assault firearm ban, Third Circuit Court, SCOTUS, New Jersey, Second Amendment, gun rights, expungement, surveillance technology, AI. SPEAKERS Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen Evan Nappen 00:19 I’m Evan Nappen. Teddy Nappen 00:20 and I’m Teddy Nappen. Evan Nappen 00:22 And welcome to Gun Lawyer. One of the things that I’ve observed through my 40-plus years in the area of firearm law is how important loopholes are to our freedom. You see, loopholes are simply freedom finding a way. Loopholes have proven over and over again to be the penetrator to breaking freedom out of its imprisonment by the oppressive governments like the state of New Jersey that constantly work at oppressing our Second Amendment rights. We’ve seen loopholes have this effect in different areas, and I think we’re going to now see even more interesting approaches as we win on the various case law challenges. It opens the door for further challenges and things that get covered or not covered by way of various loopholes, end up getting the freedoms that we desire. Evan Nappen 01:49 So, let me give you some examples that have previously occurred, just to show you not necessarily New Jersey itself, but how loopholes can get freedom. For example, at one point under the National Firearms Act, there was a requirement that Chief Law Enforcement (CLE) officers had to approve applications. And if the chief law enforcement officer did not sign off on it, you could not then possess whatever you were going for under the National Firearms Act, whether it was a suppressor or machine gun or shortbow rifle. Whatever it was, the forms needed this CLE sign off, and for any reason they could deny it. There was no way to even appeal it, and you were stuck. It got realized that if you formed what was called an NFA Trust, there was no sign-off on trusts. There was no CLE sign-off on trusts. And that became the preferred method of acquiring NFA. Because not only was there no Chief Law Enforcement officer sign off, but also, you maintained privacy even further from doing it by way of a trust. So, 10,000 trusts were later filed with the federal government, and they finally put forward Rule 41P that got rid of the requirement for having a Chief Law Enforcement officer sign off at all. Whereas prior to that, they wouldn’t get rid of it, but the loophole paved the way. So, when it comes to NFA, they’re simply given notice, but there’s no requirement that they approve it. Page – 2 – of 12 Evan Nappen 04:07 And you see again, for example, prohibitions nationally throughout various states that existed on switchblades. Switchblade knives being a knife in which the blade comes out automatically because of a button or other device in the handle of the knife. The assisted opener was invented, where there’s no button in the handle but merely pushing the blade, and the blade still opens automatically. But with no button or other device in the handle of the knife. So, you could, in fact, open the knife automatically, just not without that button. It got around the federal switchblade laws and State laws. Even now you can have an assisted opener in New Jersey, even though there’s technically a prohibition on switchblades. And what we saw was many states, after these knives have become so prolific out there and commonly owned, that the switchblade laws have been repealed in the overwhelming majority of states. Now, New Jersey has not yet repealed their switchblade law, but it is on death’s door, frankly, as well. We have Second Amendment challenges, and nationally, there’s so many actual automatic knives now out there, due to the understanding of the loopholes to the Federal Switchblade Act as to how they could still be produced, how they could still be sold. Not in states that have specific bans, but they’re prolific. And that challenge is underway as well. Again, loopholes paving the way. Evan Nappen 06:11 I think what we’re looking at now is another battleground of loopholes that are going to come in very much in our fight for legalizing, eventually, machine guns. As you know, we’re all very excited about New Jersey’s assault firearm ban going down in flames as unconstitutional, and magazines going down as well with it. With that fantastic decision out of the Third Circuit Court of Appeals that we’ve discussed. Of course, that now opens the door for further challenge. The U.S. Supreme Court, SCOTUS, have granted certiorari on the issue of assault firearms under the Viramontes and Grant cases. So, by next June or so, we’ll have federal case law on it. I’m extremely optimistically looking forward to that decision, and I think the stars have really lined up. Even New Jersey’s decision is going to aid the U.S. Supreme Court in its decision. And, in all likelihood, I mean, nothing’s ever certain, but it seems to be extremely in our favor. The antis are crying about it and essentially throwing the towel in for the most part, realizing that their entire gambit of banning semi-autos is going to die, and thank God it will. But of course, that now opens up including when you. Teddy Nappen 07:48 I will say. Evan Nappen 07:52 Go ahead. Teddy Nappen 07:56 Well, what I was going to say is that I think we need to take a page out of the antis and a lot of the progressive movement. We need to push further and further. Like, don’t give up the ground because now we’ve won the battle on the assault firearms. Evan Nappen 08:12 Oh, we’re not giving up. Page – 3 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 08:12 Keep pushing to that extent. Evan Nappen 08:14 Plow forward hard, and we’re going to. One of the ways that we’re going to do this, I also believe, is with incremental important fights and with loopholes on our side. Loopholes. Again it’s that freedom finding a way. One of the most interesting loopholes out there when it comes to machine guns. Now keep in mind. We have a separate fight going on from the Big Beautiful Bill that eliminated the tax on NFA items of suppressors, short barrel rifles, any other weapon, etc. Now, they did not remove the tax yet on machine guns. But in the Big Beautiful Lawsuit, we’re challenging, as we’ve discussed in other shows, the very jurisdiction of the NFA. If there’s no tax, there should be no law. If we’re successful there, then the machine gun ban can die federally by simply in a reconciliation bill removing the tax on machine guns. You don’t have to even repeal machine gun law to simply get rid of the tax. So, that’s what can happen. And that can avoid the filibuster in and of itself because that can just be done in a reconciliation bill because that’s directly on taxation. Evan Nappen 09:33 But in a separate attack that we have, in a separate way of going at this, is the idea of the incrementalism that loopholes create. One of these great loopholes that exists when it comes to machine guns is what is called Forced Reset Triggers (FRTs), and these have really come a long way. Now. FRTs, as they’re known, make it so that the trigger is reset with force, so that you can very quickly fire again your shot, in which a shot is still required to be pressed for each pull of the trigger, but the forcing of the reset makes it so that you can fire extremely fast. So fast that, for all intents and purposes, it duplicates the speed of fully-automatic fire. But speed of fire is not the federal law. It is based upon having to pull the trigger for each shot. Evan Nappen 10:54 And in the Fifth Circuit, FRTs, in the case out of the Fifth Circuit were found not to be machine guns. They do not make semi-automatic firearms machine guns. So, under federal law, you see that FRTs are very popular now in many, many states. They have evolved to where, for example, FRTs on AR-15 platforms are now created in what are called three-position safety FRTs. The three-position safety, for those of you familiar with how an AR-15 works, the safety on ARs will rotate to three positions. You have the “fire”, then you have “safe”, and then you have what’s called the “happy switch”, where on the complete roll around, it will go full auto. Well, they now have FRTs that, in the third position, will put the AR in a forced reset trigger position. You can then fire at that very rapid rate of fire. Essentially making it indistinguishable from fully automatic fire in effect, but mechanically, the trigger is in fact being pulled technically for each shot. These FRTs have developed to where they’re extremely reliable. It’s quite an amazing innovation, so that you can have an AR-15 that essentially functions like a fully automatic AR-15, but it’s not fully automatic. It utilizes the three position that an M16 would in fact use or an M4 that’s fully auto type AR would use. But it doesn’t technically fire fully automatic because each shot is being pulled for every shot being fired. Even though it’s done by way of this forced reset. Page – 4 – of 12 Evan Nappen 13:26 So, the interesting question is: are forced reset triggers legal in New Jersey? Let’s explore that question right now. When you look at New Jersey’s ban on machine guns, New Jersey prohibits machine guns under N.J.S. 2C:39-5, specifically under subsection a., which says: Any person who knowingly has in his possession a machine gun or any instrument or device adaptable for use as a machine gun, without being licensed to do so as provided under 58-5, which is the machine gun license, is guilty of a crime of the second degree. Now that 58-5 license actually is license to carry and possess machine guns and assault firearms. Oh, wait a minute! If the assault firearm law is unconstitutional, and the license for an assault firearm is the same license for a machine gun, oh my! Look what door has just opened in New Jersey when it comes to getting a machine gun / assault firearm license. There’s a path to be taken there, but that’s a discussion for another day. Evan Nappen 14:59 Let’s stay focused on FRTs. The machine gun is defined in New Jersey under N.J.S. 2C:39-1. section i. Under the 39-1.i definition of machine gun, it says. “Machine gun means any firearm, mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir, belt or other means for storing and carrying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism or instrument and fired therefrom. A machine gun also shall include, without limitation, any firearm with a trigger crank attached.” Okay, well pressed for each shot. Well, guess what? With a Forced Reset Trigger, you are pressing the trigger for each shot. Now, before you get too excited about that, New Jersey, of course, has taken a position, which we’ll discuss in a moment, about how they’re viewing that definition. However, the fight is on. The fight is on. Evan Nappen 16:12 But let’s continue. First of all, is an FRT a trigger crank? Well, a trigger crank is defined under section ff. of 39-1. It says a trigger crank means any device or instrument to be attached to a firearm that repeatedly activates the trigger of the firearm through the use of a lever or other part that is turned in a circular motion. It does not include any weapon initially designed and manufactured to fire through the use of a crank or lever. So, Gatling guns are legal in New Jersey because they’re designed from the beginning with a crank. A crank that you attach to a semi-automatic firearm is specifically banned and placed within the machine gun definition. But an FRT is not a crank. Evan Nappen 17:13 What else does New Jersey prohibit? It prohibits a “bump stock”. What’s a “bump stock”? Well, that’s any device or instrument for a firearm that increases the rate of fire achievable with the firearm by using energy from the recoil of the firearm to generate a reciprocating action that facilitates repeated activation of the trigger. And as you know, bump stocks are stocks, and they utilize the recoil in that way. A Forced Reset Trigger isn’t working in that mechanism either, and that can be demonstrated as well. So, cranks or bump stocks themselves, mere possession of them, are prohibited under N.J.S. 2C:39-3, subsection l. You have separate prohibitions on those items. Furthermore, the law states that a conviction for possessing them doesn’t merge with a conviction for possession of an assault firearm. However, possession of an assault firearm is unconstitutionally going to go down the tubes, as we know, from that great decision out of the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. So, we’re simply dealing with cranks and bump stocks as standalone prohibited items, but not assault firearms. Page – 5 – of 12 Evan Nappen 18:35 But the question becomes: Does New Jersey still ban Forced Reset Triggers? Interestingly, when AI is asked about this, when AI is questioned, for fun, I thought I’d ask AI about it. And what AI says, particularly Gemini, if you’re interested, it says the state prohibits them by treating them as machine guns and machine gun conversions under New Jersey statutes 39-1 and 39-5. Then it goes to cite New Jersey’s machine gun classification and statutory provisions and enforcement position. Okay, let’s look at each one. Machine gun classification. New Jersey law enforcement and the Attorney General’s office classify FRTs as illegal machine gun conversion devices because they enable semi-automatic weapons to fire multiple rounds continuously with a single function of the trigger. Okay, guess what? We have a fight on our hands with that. That is their position. Keep that in mind. If you’re caught with one in New Jersey, the state will make that claim. However, as you can see from the actual definition, we have excellent grounds for arguing that they are wrong. We don’t have case law establishing it yet, but loopholes help find the way. Evan Nappen 20:07 Statutory provisions. They’re claiming that 39-5 prohibits possession of machine gun or any device that converts a firearm to a machine gun. Well, we just determined that it’s about pressing a trigger, and the trigger still is pressed with an FRT. So, that part of AI seems to be no good. I brought that up in my continuing conversation with AI, and AI responded. You point out, which I am pointing out, that a central distinction that gun rights advocate and federal courts have leveraged to argue FRTs are not machine guns under the Federal Firearms Act, a machine gun is defined as a weapon that fires automatically by a single function of the trigger. Because an FRT physically resets and forces a shooter to apply distinct pressure for each shot, federal courts like the Fifth Circuit have ruled FRTs require a separate trigger function per round and thus fall outside the federal definition. Evan Nappen 21:09 However, New Jersey law applies a different statutory standard and circumvents the single function trigger loophole. Really? I thought it just said distinct pressure for each shot. What the hell is AI even talking about? Well, they’re claiming that New Jersey has different statutory language. They’re saying machine gun means any firing mechanism, not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot. AI makes that bold. Yet we know that it does. So, where are they coming from with this? Well, they’re giving a legal interpretation that the state’s legal argument tries to distinguish between pressed and pulled. The state’s position is that the New Jersey Attorney General and state prosecutors argue that with an FRT, the shooter applies one continuous undivided downward pressure with their finger. Because the firearm’s internal recoil energy forcibly resets the trigger against the finger, the shooter does not deliberately release and consciously press the trigger again for each shot. Evan Nappen 22:21 However, they’re saying, and again, it says conclusion. Therefore, the state views the continuous rearward pressure of a single finger squeeze as a single continuous act, meaning the shooter is not actively pressing the trigger for each individual shot. Even though what’s happening is what? The trigger is being pressed for each shot. Ha! Battleground, right there, my friends. Battleground. Not determined yet. I don’t think you want to be the test case, but the fight is there to be had. Page – 6 – of 12 Evan Nappen 22:54 Aggressive multi-state litigation. New Jersey actively defends this strict interpretation, and yes, they will. The state led a coalition of 16 states urging that the Fifth Circuit reverse federal rollbacks on FRT bans. Explicitly stating that FRTs are new, but mechanical principles which they operate are not. They say the state maintains FRTs are fundamentally designed to evade automatic weapon restrictions and fall squarely within the state’s sweeping definition of rapid fire modification. Well, you’re right. They do evade it. They evade it by following what the law requires and finding the loophole that finds the freedom. The argument is there. Evan Nappen 23:42 Then, in my questioning of AI, it said you said, “Does New Jersey ban FRTs, and if so, how? They say yes. New Jersey bans FTRs. The state prohibits them by treating them as machine guns. We’ve gone through again in this loophole of a loop, how and why. Then AI puts forward Senate Bill 2097 specifically bans binary triggers as well. Well, guess what? That didn’t pass. Ah, but they claim that binary triggers falls under the same legal arguments because you’re releasing, not pressing. You can see the battle. What makes this so fascinating, my friends, is that this is now going to become a hotter topic for New Jersey. As we see the death of the 36-year-old assault firearm ban and semi-automatics not being treated in any different way. We then see these fronts, these battlefronts opening up for challenging New Jersey’s machine gun definition, which can occur through their still existing licensing law, and can occur through the battle of the loopholes under FRTs and binary triggers. We are seeing glorious opportunities before us to destroy New Jersey’s gun rights oppression. And that is the power of loopholes. Let me also. Go ahead, Teddy. Teddy Nappen 25:41 What I was going to say is, what’s going to come next is basically once we achieved it, where machine guns are legalized and we’ve basically knocked all their laws out. This is goes back to what the the Democrat Socialists put out, and then they’re gonna go for trying to abolish the Second Amendment. Evan Nappen 26:02 That’s right. Teddy Nappen 26:04 But that’s the whole idea. The whole argument of how we won on dealing with the assault weapon ban was the “common use”. So, I think just continuing to flood the market and to make sure guns outpace the population is the only way we’re going to ever protect the rights. Just manufacturing and outpacing them. Evan Nappen 26:05 The more commonly owned, the better. Evan Nappen 26:29 Hey, I want to tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. They have something really cool. They have the Civilian Shoot House Training, and that will be taking place on Friday, August 14, eight a.m. to Page – 7 – of 12 noon. This is something new at WeShoot. This is not a beginner class. This is where training becomes real. WeShoot’s Civilian Shoot House Training is built for people who understand one thing: real situations don’t happen standing still on a lane. You’ll learn how to move through your home, how to clear rooms, how to make decisions under pressure the right way. What you’ll learn in the Civilian Shoot House Training is room clearing fundamentals, shooting while moving, target identification under stress, proper use of light and positioning, operating solo or as a team. Now, this is the kind of training that helps you protect your family and avoid tragic, life-changing mistakes. Evan Nappen 27:44 This training is ideal for homeowners and parents, houses of worship security teams, armed guards, civilian groups, anyone serious about real-world defense. And you’ll be training with the real deal. You’ll be training with Jim Weinberg, who’s got 30 years of law enforcement experience with SWAT, USERT, and Todd Friedman, retired detective lieutenant, special operations. He’s led 500 tactical entries, over 500. Scott Benito, a 25-year veteran, former lieutenant, tactical team leader. Ryan Benito, an Army combat veteran, 173rd Airborne, CQB instructor, master breacher. Andy Tkach, retired captain, firearm instructor, city SRT team member, instructor, police academy instructor, and municipal counterterrorism coordinator. Evan Nappen 28:40 This is the kind of quality training you will receive from WeShoot in their Civilian Shoot House Training. These are instructors who have done it in real life, and they will teach you how to do it right. Listen, folks, the bottom line is this. Shooting is one skill; moving safely through your home is another. If you’re serious about protecting what matters, this is your next step. Keep in mind, spots are limited. Secure yours now. Go to weshootusa.com. Check out their fantastic website. It’s the greatest range. Teddy and I shoot there. We love it. Wwe get our trainings, where we get our certifications, and you can too. Whether you’re a beginner or advanced, WeShoot is a place for you. Conveniently located in Lakewood, right off the Parkway. Easy to get to, and a great resource. Take advantage of this resource at WeShootUSA.com. That’s the range you need to go to in New Jersey. Evan Nappen 29:49 Let me also tell you about New Jersey Gun Law. That’s my book. The Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. Everybody needs a copy. Get your copy at EvanNappen.com. It is a question and answer goldmine to fill you in and make it so you don’t become a GOFU. If you want to avoid that, you need the book. That’ll help you do it. Hey Teddy, what do you have for us in Press Checks? Teddy Nappen 30:17 Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. We always like to check out our friends at AmmoLand, and they point out something that’s again very scary. If you’ve seen the news, all the big talk is about Flock Cameras. (https://www.ammoland.com/2026/07/flocks-flying-cameras-how-300-million-drone-deal-turns-america-into-an-always-on-surveillance-grid/) Typically, there’s a bill aiming to stop. Evan Nappen 30:37 What is a “Flock Camera”, Teddy? What is it? Page – 8 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 30:42 It is basically a highly advanced surveillance system that tracks, uses facial recognition, biometric identifications, and any other . It uses high level technology of capturing, analyzing, retaining. Evan Nappen 31:00 So, what are these cameras that are put all over the place? Teddy Nappen 31:03 So, they’re looking to. Right now the network has surpassed 100,000 cameras. They are operating more than 500,000. Evan Nappen 31:10 One hundred thousand cameras doing facial recognition, tracking, surveillance. Is this like Big Brother happening? Teddy Nappen 31:18 It is. And unfortunately, the Big Brother is very retarded. There have been many issues, including the fact that they’ve had the network be exposed, where you can get live feeds of the flock cameras. It’s amazing what you can find at a bunch of cameras pointed at, oh, you know, schools, playgrounds. That’s not going to be abused, and also it makes mistakes and false. Evan Nappen 31:44 And people are hacking into them, aren’t they? Teddy Nappen 31:46 Repeatedly, yes. And they’ve had. Evan Nappen 31:48 Well, wait a minute. If you’re not doing anything wrong, what do you have to worry about? Teddy Nappen 31:53 Well, it was pointed out in the article that this is important for the Second Amendment because it’s tracking license plates where it’s logging in, arriving and departing gun stores and gun shows and shooting ranges. Evan Nappen 32:08 Oh, New Jersey would never do that. Oh wait, they did. They did it at gun shows, even in out-of-state gun shows. Oh my. Teddy Nappen 32:16 Correct. Page – 9 – of 12 Evan Nappen 32:16 Oh my. And that’s without the aid of Flock Cameras. Teddy Nappen 32:20 Correct. And apply that now to not only building profiles where they’re going to determine oh this person’s a gun owner. So that obviously means they’re going to make the calculations think you’re carrying, and they’re going to wait until a moment when you’re in a “sensitive place” and try to bust you then. Doing this data tracking. Evan Nappen 32:41 Well, you’re not supposed to be in a “sensitive place”, Teddy. Teddy Nappen 32:44 Yeah, I know. It’s almost like you know things happen. Evan Nappen 32:46 And not only that, they use Wi-Fi to determine if you have a gun. Teddy Nappen 32:51 Correct. And then marry this with AI with a new thing called Signal Trace. It comes by the Leonardo USA Cybersecurity Company. So, this company, they use the Signal Trace. It’s a software system for identifying groups of consumers using multiples of the electronic devices. So, say that you have a smartwatch and a phone, or even your car, and all of that is accessible through the Signal Trace, where they develop large-scale profiles of individuals that they are tracking on these cameras. Now they understand. Oh, this person’s a gun owner. This person carries. This person’s going to have a whatever carry package. Evan Nappen 33:37 Wait a minute. I’ve got a question. I see, but are there any like countries that might be like authoritarian and really mean to their people that might be using technology like this? There isn’t any countries doing that now, is there? Teddy Nappen 33:54 China, Russia. Evan Nappen 33:56 China and Russia. Teddy Nappen 33:57 UK. Evan Nappen 33:58 I see, and the UK, of course, of course. Page – 10 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 34:03 These are various nations for that they’re going to abuse it. And by the way, they’ve come out and said they’re not talking about combining the two systems of Signal Trace. There’s no official contract, but let’s be real. The fact remains AI. Evan Nappen 34:19 Anything Government can abuse, they will abuse. That’s an iron law of Government abuse. Who’s kidding who? And by the way, if you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re not doing anything wrong till somebody decides that what you’re doing is wrong, and now it’s wrong in their book. Teddy Nappen 34:36 I’ll give you a one example. Well, they bought Aerodome, which is a drone package. So, now it’s going to be a mobile Flock Camera, calling it the Alpha. Evan Nappen 34:51 Oh, wow! Everywhere! Flying overhead. Anywhere, everywhere, constant surveillance. That’s just lovely, lovely. Teddy Nappen 35:02 Yes. Evan Nappen 35:02 Who wants to live like that? Teddy Nappen 35:05 Yes. So, Big Brother is out there, and I’m pretty sure there are a few videos on how to do drone hunting. So that’s going to be fun. Yeah. You know, when Amazon was doing that, it was skeet shooting with prizes. Evan Nappen 35:20 Ha, ha! Well, you know, there’s a federal bill I understand to try to ban these. Teddy Nappen 35:27 Correct. It’s the Protection Against Mass Surveillance Act (H.R. 980). (https://www.ammoland.com/2026/07/burchett-bill-flock-cameras-gun-owners/) Evan Nappen 35:33 Well, damn, we need that bill. Teddy Nappen 35:35 Yeah, no, no kidding. Evan Nappen 35:37 It’ll be a federal prohibition on this nonsense? Page – 11 – of 12 Teddy Nappen 35:40 All federal agencies will be prohibited from using automated surveillance system to identify, track, or record individuals. Evan Nappen 35:46 Oh, I’m sure the state of New Jersey will happily do it, though. It sounds right up their line. Teddy Nappen 35:52 Yeah. Evan Nappen 35:53 But at least if we get the feds to maybe even make it preemptive. It should be a federal law that preempts the area, so that’s nationwide and preemptive. So, you kill it for the whole country. Teddy Nappen 36:06 Yeah, and this is where. Again, this is the marrying of what will come because we can have all these fights and win and get all the loopholes, but this combined with AI of what they’re going to do, they will just track, and they know how many guns without even having to do the right process. Evan Nappen 36:24 It’s scary. It’s scary stuff. Teddy Nappen 36:26 They won’t even need to do the paperwork even. It’ll just have an AI. Evan Nappen 36:29 You know, technology is advancing so fast with all this. You’re combining AI and drones and Flock cameras and this targeting ability. I mean, you know, we’re not too far from RoboCop. And that also includes actual robots coming our way. Then you combine robots with Flock and drone and AI, and you see we’re entering into a sci-fi horror show here. Teddy Nappen 37:03 Yeah. Evan Nappen 37:04 They better get the federal laws on this stuff, man. It’s spooky. It’s scary. It is not how I grew up. I’ll tell you that. It’s bad news. Bad news. Evan Nappen 37:17 Well, I want to tell you about this week’s GOFU, which is of course the Gun Owner Fuck Up. It’s important. We always study GOFUs. You don’t want to become a GOFU. GOFUs are expensive lessons that others have learned that you get to learn for free, so you don’t repeat them. And let me tell you, these are actual cases, clients and real scenarios. I’ll tell you something I’ve seen a lot of lately. Page – 12 – of 12 Folks that are doing their own expungements. If you have a record that needs to be cleared, I absolutely do not advise doing it yourself. You need a professional to get your expungement done right. There’s a lot of nuances to getting expungements done right, and when they are done wrong, it is a nightmare. It is a nightmare to fix it, and it creates escalating problems. Evan Nappen 38:11 Let me give you an example. You get an expungement, and you don’t clear all your records. You think you have. Next thing you know, you’re jammed up on your gun application for lying on the form. You’re looking at five years in State Prison for lying on the form because you wrote “no” when you should have wrote “yes”. You thought you were expunged and you weren’t. You get an expungement. You actually get everything cleared, but you didn’t realize that you had to wait for the State Police to also scrub the record. No one told you that. You thought it got done, but the database comes up that you have a record. You’ve said “no”. Now the entire system comes down on you for lying. License denial, gun forfeiture, revocation. You’ve got to fight it all off. Again, giant problem. Evan Nappen 39:03 Even if you get the expungement order, you don’t realize the record hasn’t been scrubbed. Your local issuing authority recognizes the expungement, and grants you the license or permit. You then go to the dealer to buy, but get denied on the NICS check because the database still has it in it. Now the feds are on your ass, and the entire escalation comes down on you for that. We see these scenarios over and over again. If you or anybody you know needs an expungement, get it done professionally. There’s too many pitfalls, problems, and nuances in doing it properly and correctly. Believe me, we see that downside. Don’t be a GOFU. Evan Nappen 39:57 This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Speaker 3 40:08 GunLawyer is a Counterthink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state. Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E301_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America's Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it's no wonder he's become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets. Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It's Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News. As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists. He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America. Email Evan Your Comments and Questions  talkback@gun.lawyer Join Evan's InnerCircleHere's your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America.  Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL.  Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits.   Email (required) *First Name *Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.var ajaxurl = "https://gun.lawyer/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php";

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Susann Penack: ARD-Quotenhit „Money Maker“, Doku-Handwerk & der Fall Nic KaufmannWie entsteht eine erfolgreiche ARD-Dokumentation, die Millionen von Aufrufen erzielt und gleichzeitig ein junges Publikum auf YouTube und TikTok begeistert? In dieser Folge von „In kleiner Runde – Inside Medien“ empfangen Julia Krüger und Maurice Gajda die freie NDR-Filmrealisatorin und Journalistin Susann Penack.Nach Quoten-Erfolgen mit Ballermann-Star Isi Glück blickt Susann in ihrer bereits 5. „Money Maker“-Folge hinter die Fassade von Social-Media-Star Nic Kaufmann – vom einstigen Außenseiter zu einem der erfolgreichsten Mode-Influencer Europas. Im Gespräch geht es nicht nur um den Hype, sondern um harte journalistische Realität, visuelle Dramaturgie und die Kehrseiten der Medienbranche.Journalismus, Handwerk & der Kritiker-Anspruch: Susann bezieht Stellung zur scharfen Kritik von Übermedien („Oft mehr Imageproduktion als Doku“) und verrät, wie sie den Spagat zwischen schnellem 30-Minuten-Format für Gen Z und investigativem Anspruch meistert.Blick hinter die Kulissen von „Money Maker: Nic Kaufmann“: Wie bricht man das perfekt kontrollierte PR-Schutzschild eines Influencers? Susann erzählt von Schlüsselmomenten am Set, Einblicken in Nics mentale Gesundheit und den schmerzhaften Entscheidungen im Schnittraum.Dramaturgie, Experten & visueller Flow: Warum Stimmen wie Branchen-Insider Adil Sbai oder Psychologen für die Story-Tiefe unverzichtbar waren und wie man als Regisseurin die visuelle Tonalität wahrt, ohne dass Einordnungen wie ein belehrender Zeigefinger wirken.Der „innere Kampf“ & die Medienbranche: Über die persönliche Parallele zu Nics Zitaten, den ständigen Leistungsdruck als freie Filmemacherin, Burnout-Prävention in heißen Produktionsphasen und den Umgang mit öffentlichen Verrissen.Zukunft des Formats & Ratschläge: Susann teilt ihr größtes Learning aus dem 5. Film, gibt wertvolle Praxistipps für den journalistischen Nachwuchs und enthüllt ihren absoluten Traum-Protagonisten für die nächste Folge.

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Episode 298-NJ Assaulting Our Rights… Again Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode Transcript Page – 1 – of 11 Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 298 SUMMARY KEYWORDS New Jersey gun laws, assault firearm ban, Supreme Court, Vera Montes, Grant cases, Assembly Bill 442, semi-automatic rifles, detachable magazine, draconian penalties, property rights, gun rights, sensitive places, reparations, We Shoot USA, gun owner mistakes. SPEAKERS Speaker 3, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen Evan Nappen 00:18 This is Evan Nappen. Teddy Nappen 00:20 and I’m Teddy Nappen. Evan Nappen 00:23 And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, New Jersey is at it again. What, Teddy? Go ahead. What we gonna say, buddy? Teddy Nappen 00:31 Well, I was gonna say, you wouldn’t believe the stuff that they’re trying to cycle through on social media. They’re trying to now push the whole, “you’re afraid we’re going to take your guns away, and we’re afraid you’re going to take our children away. Which one is unfounded? Like it’s. Evan Nappen 00:53 Yeah! Which one’s unfounded, yeah. Well, being that the anties never give up, those that want to crush our rights and oppress us. New Jersey, of course, always has to lead the way on doing that. And so now, as we discussed last show, we’re all very excited at the Viramontes and Grant cases that are combined and have been granted certiorari by the U.S. Supreme Court. This means they’re finally going to get a decision out of the Supreme Court determining the constitutionality of so-called “assault weapon” ban. But what is New Jersey’s response when these things happen? They’re like the Iranians. When New Jersey makes their gun oppression policy, they act like the Iranians. They double down on threats. They double down on trying to convince us that they are just going to make life miserable for us, and they do it various ways. Evan Nappen 02:13 Their current response is essentially an assault firearm law radical enhancement. That’s right. So, here we realize that the entire concept of banning semi-automatic firearms is, my money is solidly on that is going up in flames. As we talked about before, this is finally, I believe, on the road to destruction. This whole political fight that has harmed so many good people. Ruined law-abiding citizens’ lives. Taken Page – 2 – of 11 their destroyed families’ fortunes, and taken away freedom and rights. This nightmare, I believe, is going to end. But it’s actually even more excitement over when that end might take place, that we’ll talk about in a little bit. In between, leave it to New Jersey to propose even more, even worse, even more draconian laws, particularly on the dreaded, intrinsically evil “assault firearms”. That’s right, New Jersey calls them “assault firearms”. Sometimes they’re called, in other jurisdictions, in federal law, “assault weapons”. Teddy Nappen 03:46 It’s a hoplosexual term. Evan Nappen 03:49 Yeah, you’re right. It’s a term that’s just concocted, so that they can make up lists of guns to ban and to make as far-reaching a ban to turn as many law-abiding citizens into criminals as they possibly can. So, New Jersey filed a new bill. It is Assembly Bill 442 . (https://pub.njleg.state.nj.us/Bills/2026/A0500/442_I1.PDF) This is New Jersey’s incredible doubling down on their assault firearm law, and I wanted to just go through with you. This law, because whether it’ll pass or not, who knows? Even if it does pass, this stuff I believe is going down in flames and will no longer be anything they can pass laws about. Dead. Gone. Done. Evan Nappen 04:50 Sort of like what happens when you enrage a bull elephant. You know, African elephants and Indian elephants are different. African elephants are extremely ornery, mean, tough. Republicans, you know, picked the elephant as their symbol. Sometimes I think about when we get the good elephant, when we get the African version of the elephant, and they actually do what’s needed. I think we’re going to see that here through the judicial system, which now has plenty of great judges, thanks to President Trump appointing conservative judges. The bull elephants of Africa, they do not just kill you. They eliminate you! They crush you and crush you and crush you until there’s nothing left. You can’t even be picked up with a stick and a spoon. That’s how much they disintegrate when they are riled up and attacking. I suspect that we are going to see the African bull elephant happen to this entire agenda of “assault firearm bans”. Evan Nappen 06:10 But until then, let’s look at what they want to do. Because if it doesn’t go that way, if it’s somehow upheld that these things can be prohibited and banned, and our rights can be walked upon in this manner, here’s what New Jersey is doing to the current “assault firearm” definition. Let’s actually look at what they’re saying. So, of course, we have the current law that we’re all familiar with. It has a list of 67 guns, and then they say “substantially identical” and that had never been effectively defined. We had case law that said “substantially identical” means the 1994 Crime Bill definition, which was amazing, since that was four years after New Jersey passed their law. How our legislators knew that an unconstitutional law would be saved by a federal law that was passed four years later, I don’t know. Somehow the court put that forward. We’ve lived under that for now. Page – 3 – of 11 Evan Nappen 07:08 But what they’re doing is they are now going to incorporate and define the specificity in the statute, the term substantially identical. By claiming that any of these above guns and platforms, you know, the 67 intrinsically evil semi-automatic firearms on that list, will now include under the term of “substantially identical” a semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. That’s step one. Any semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following features. So, currently we have a two feature requirement. This is now any one of these features, and your semi-automatic firearm that takes a detachable magazine becomes contraband. Becomes banned. Becomes unlawful for you to possess with no lawful way of possessing it. There’s no grandfathering in this bill. Evan Nappen 08:20 If you’re caught possessing it, the penalty is so draconian it defies belief. It’s up to 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory, mandatory, minimum three and a half years in State Prison, no chance of parole. If you get convicted of possession of an assault firearm, even right now in New Jersey, no less this expanded list that we’re going to look at in a minute, we are talking about the judge having no discretion whatsoever, and having to impose at least three and a half years in State Prison. And folks, if you have an assault firearm and you’re possessing one, if you get caught with it, you’re looking at that penalty right now. Hopefully we’re going to get all this won, and I honestly believe we will. But just in case it doesn’t, or if you get nailed before that happens, you’re looking at insanity in terms of a prison sentence. Evan Nappen 09:16 So how does this new definition with one feature? What are the single features that make a semi-automatic rifle that takes a detachable magazine intrinsically evil and must be banned at the second degree, felony level, where you’re looking at 10 years and a minimum mandatory three and a half in prison for just having any one of the following features? Number one, a folding or telescoping stock. Wow, you know how important a folding or telescoping stock is when it comes to fighting crime. I mean, a telescoping stock that moves one or two inches back or forth. I mean, that’s like an entire crime wave into itself, right? If you have that feature on your gun, you’re looking at the offense I just outlined. Teddy Nappen 10:09 Wasn’t there a case, Dad. Wasn’t there a case that you had where if you had a folding stock, it was deemed an assault firearm? Evan Nappen 10:17 Well, that’s exactly what it is. A folding stock or telescoping stock currently is, but wait. Teddy Nappen 10:24 Yeah. Evan Nappen 10:24 One feature, though – just one. Try another, a pistol grip. If you have any rifle semi-auto that takes a mag and it has a pistol grip, it’s contraband. It’s banned. You’re looking at draconian sentencing and Page – 4 – of 11 punishment for your possession. Even though you lawfully bought it from a dealer. Even though you had a firearms ID card and went through all the vetting, went through a NICS check. It doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter one bit. You’re going to State Prison. If it has a thumb hole stock, one feature, a thumb hole stock. That’s all it takes. It’s an assault firearm. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. A second hand grip. Every rifle has a forearm that’s a second hand grip. What are you grabbing it with? Your dick? No, this is outrageous. It’s stupid. It’s a hand grip. Well, if your semi-auto rifle has a hand grip, it’s an assault firearm. Evan Nappen 11:37 A bayonet mount. Oh my gosh, a bayonet mount. That’s because of all the drive-by bayonetings, of course. If you have a flash suppressor or a muzzle brake, if you’re just trying to tame recoil, it doesn’t matter. A muzzle compensator. A threaded barrel designed to accommodate. If you just have the threads on there. A flash suppressor, a muzzle brake, or a muzzle compensator. They want you having lots of recoil on your gun, lots of recoil. Can’t tame that recoil. They don’t want you to have any accuracy in your shooting or ability to shoot without muzzle rise. I mean, what the hell? Insanity. It doesn’t matter. A grenade launcher. Well, if you have a grenade launcher, that’s one thing. Having grenades, that’s another. And can you believe they want to prohibit us from having grenade launchers? What about all of us that go out grenade launching on the weekends? I mean, that really sucks, doesn’t it? Yeah. Evan Nappen 12:39 Then semi-automatic shotguns. Let’s look at shotguns. A semi-automatic shotgun that has any one of the following: a folding or telescoping stock, a thumb hole stock, thumb hole stock on a shotgun? I don’t know, maybe. I guess they’re out there. Who cares if it has a thumb hole? It doesn’t matter. Thumb hole stock. Maybe some of those trap guns have some of the interesting designs that we sometimes see. Well, they’re going to be an assault firearm under this bill. A second hand grip or a protruding grip held by the non-triggering hand. A second hand grip. Well, folks, if your semi-auto shotgun, and this just says semi-auto shotgun, it doesn’t have to be mag fed, so my friends, if your Remington 1100 or you’re Remington 1187 or you’re Benelli or you’re Browning, you’re A5 or your standard good old reliable semi-auto shotgun that you inherited from your grandpa, if it has a forearm on it. Gee, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a semi-auto shotgun that doesn’t have a forearm on it, where you grip it with your hand, that shotgun becomes an “assault firearm”. Evan Nappen 12:58 What are they doing with pistols? A semi-automatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable. magazine and has at least one of the following. So, basically every semi-automatic pistol that uses a detachable magazine, which is, oh, maybe 99% of all pistols, right? Hence, what semi-automatic pistols are, which are, except for some exceptions, a few exceptions, they’re magazine fed. I know the Keltec uses the stripper clip deal into a fixed mag. Maybe you have an old broom handle that uses a stripper clip into a fixed mag, but short of that, just about every pistol out there immediately has the ability to accept a detachable mag. And if your pistol has a folding or thumb hole stock, and of course they’ll view a pistol brace as that, because New Jersey can interpret it their own way. A thumb hole stock. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. There are, of course, Page – 5 – of 11 larger revolvers, some that utilize even a form of a horizontal forearm. We’ve seen different grips that can go on other types of pistols. Evan Nappen 14:07 So, attention all fuds. Attention all fuds who think, who cares about “assault firearms”? It doesn’t affect me. Well, guess what? All your semi-auto shotguns with forearms become assault firearms overnight, if this bill gets signed into law. A fixed magazine capacity exceeding six rounds. The ability to accept a detachable magazine. So, if you have any semi-auto shotgun that uses a detachable magazine. It doesn’t matter how many the mag hold. If it can accept a detachable mag, it’s instantly an “assault firearm”. Teddy Nappen 16:22 Isn’t there a mod you can do for Desert Eagles? Evan Nappen 16:24 Sure. There’s all that stuff out there. You’re right. A capacity, now, here’s this. It’s just absolutely weird. Listen to this. A capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip. So, if your pistol can hold, outside of the pistol grip, an extra magazine. It doesn’t mean that the magazine has to actually function. But if you have a handgun that has some capacity to hold an extra mag, then that’s an “assault firearm”. If your pistol has.. I don’t even.. I guess there are some.. Teddy Nappen 17:10 I think they’re referring to, you know, when you tape mags together, sometimes. Evan Nappen 17:14 I guess. Well, I don’t even know if that’s possible on a pistol. Or if you have some type of magazine holder that is somehow attached to a gun. I don’t even know what they are referring to. Maybe the Roneys. You know, where your Glock goes in the Roney, and you can have an extra mag up there that you can just grab. I don’t know. But if it can do it. Here’s a great one. A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencers. Oh, a threaded barrel. So, now, because your pistol has a threaded barrel and you just want to have a compensator on there, or extra barrel weight. Single feature. It’s an assault firearm. Evan Nappen 18:01 Any handgun with a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more, when the pistol is unloaded. And then thrown in, I guess, for laughs, is a semi-automatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun, or firearm. A semi-automatic version of an automatic. So, what are semi-automatic versions of full automatic firearms? Well, that’s going to now include, well, obviously your semi-auto Thompsons that are legal. They’re going to be illegal. Any semi- automatic. Then the entire class of ARs, right? That, of course, will fall under that. So, this isn’t even handguns. That’s just as a general catch-all that it’s any semi-auto. And most semi-autos are versions of what are otherwise full auto or select fire guns. Just about every semi auto rifle out there, you know. Very few that aren’t that. I mean, you may find some exceptions, but good grief. Look at the stroke of coverage. That isn’t even a feature bill, that isn’t even a feature bill. Page – 6 – of 11 Evan Nappen 19:23 Even if you have a semi-automatic rifle that used any kind of magazine. It doesn’t have to be a detachable magazine, anything, or a semi-automatic version of an automatic shotgun, rifle, or firearm. Wait a minute. Broom handles that we talked about not having a detachable mag would seem to be legal. But under this new bill, now they’re illegal, because broom handles also had a happy switch at a certain point. And a semi- automatic version of it is now going to be flat out illegal, even though it doesn’t use a detachable magazine. So, you can see how far back and how far reaching and how broad this insanity is. Teddy Nappen 20:12 Wouldn’t it also meet the weight category? Didn’t they say, like, what is it, 50 ounces or something? Evan Nappen 20:18 No, I think it’s under on that, but look, I’m not sure. I haven’t weighed a broom handle in a while, but hey, it could be. The bottom line, folks, is this is what they see as important to do. They see this as something that has to get done to us. To turn us all into criminals. Doubling down facing what is going to happen in the courts, and that’s where I really want to tell you. As crappy as this bill is, as insane and stupid as this bill is, the bottom line is we are positioned beautifully for the death of this insanity, finally, finally. And that’s not just because of Viramontes and Grant being decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, but our own cases that are currently in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals with the en banc panel. We’re going to see decisions coming out both on “sensitive places” and on “assault firearms”, and we’re going to see those decisions before we even see the Supreme Court rule in about a year on “assault firearms”. I believe within the next few months. Because we have a panel that appears to be one of the most respectful of the Second Amendments of any appellate circuit federal court out there, I believe we’re going to see our New Jersey suffering end sooner than even the Supreme Court’s death knell that should happen in June 2027. So, we have a lot to be positive about. The positive is this is really positioned to finally be crushed like a bull elephant smashing its prey into absolute oblivion, and I’m gonna be extremely happy when that day comes. And after that, my friends. Go ahead. What, Teddy? Teddy Nappen 22:30 Well, I’m just kind of thinking back to when you were starting off, Dad. Think to the New Jersey for the assault to the assault weapon ban, the original assault weapon ban, where that came into play, just thinking along lines of like what were the what was the arguments, and like what was the things they used as their tactics. Evan Nappen 22:50 Well, I can tell you, folks, the history. Back in late 1989. I actually become attorney in 1988. They passed the bill that became effective in May of 1990. New Jersey’s assault firearm ban. And I remember back then we did not have the Second Amendment established by Heller and McDonald and Bruen. We did not have the test of constitutionality with the historical analog requirements, etc. We did not have any of that. We didn’t even have a court declaring that the Second Amendment was an individual right. We all knew that it was a violation then of the Second Amendment, because we all knew what the Second Amendment meant. But we didn’t have the juice. The case law didn’t exist. Page – 7 – of 11 Evan Nappen 23:48 So, our approach at the time, which was initially successful, was going at the vagueness of the statute itself, which worked in Merrill. That’s how New Jersey’s law evolved when they brought the federal case over that. But we had arguments then, and it did turn thousands and thousands of citizens into criminals. and still does to this day. Looking now, years later, 30 plus years now later, we’re finally going to see the end of it. It’s been a long time coming, but we will win this. It took a long time, but what we’ve established in getting to this point will protect freedom for generations. And that’s something I’m proud of, because I was a small part of that. All of you that have fought for our rights are all part of it, and we’re seeing history right before our eyes. Evan Nappen 24:58 But you’ve got to know, you’ve got to understand that this law has been devastating to so many people. It has destroyed and harmed. It has caused far more harm than any firearm has actually caused in terms of the absolute destruction to law-abiding citizens. When you look at how small the numbers are for deaths and such from these particular guns, it’s minuscule compared to just how many people have suffered. And that’s why, my friends, after we get this victory, I want reparations for gun owners. That’s right. Reparations for gun owners who suffered under New Jersey’s tyrannical laws that destroyed, harmed, and took away rights. Listen, reparations here, we have real victims that are alive today, not generations ago. Alive now that have paid a price for this insanity by New Jersey, and they deserve reparations. We’ll be talking more about that after we destroy this horrible, most horrible of infringements. Calling it an infringement, actually, is almost doing it a disservice. It’s an atrocity, an atrocity passed by New Jersey. So, stay tuned. These are good times. I’m extremely cautiously optimistic for us, and you should be as well. Evan Nappen 26:43 Hey, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, an indoor range. It’s the range where Teddy and I love to shoot. It is a fantastic resource. You will love WeShoot. Many of you already shoot there. They have great training. They have great pro shop, and they can get you equipped. They can get you everything you need, so that you can stay sharp, focused, trained, and practiced with your gun,. Because if you don’t shoot your gun, what good is it? You’ve got to keep the skill set and keep your training. Make sure you’re on it. It’s super important. WeShoot is a great resource, right there in Central Jersey, conveniently off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can go to weshootusa.com. They have a great website. We love WeShoot, and so will you. Their training is first rate. Get your CCARE certificate so that you can get your carry. You can get advanced training or basic training. You can have the most fundamental. If you have someone in your family who doesn’t know a thing about guns, they can get their start the right way at WeShoot. If you have someone, maybe even yourself, that’s really advanced and want top of the line advanced training, they can provide you with those services there, too. They’re the best. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. Evan Nappen 28:29 And while you’re at it, make sure you get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the bible of New Jersey Gun Law. It’s a book everybody uses, judges, lawyers, firearms division, you name it. It’s Page – 8 – of 11 the guidebook to help you from becoming a GOFU. You don’t want to become a GOFU and that’s one of the best ways of avoiding it. Knowing the insanity of New Jersey so you don’t get caught up in the traps that they lay for law-abiding gun owners. So, they cannot turn them into criminals, and then shout to the stupid general public to make it look like they’re doing something about crime when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it, except destroying their counter voter constituency. That’s the reality of what they’re about. So, be smart. Get a copy of my book at EvanNappen.com. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. Teddy, what else do you have for us? Teddy Nappen 29:33 As you know, Press Checks are always free, and there’s something that seems to be coming up more and more. As we know, the Left on their last legs when it comes to their attacks on our rights, particularly with the victories that we’re having, and the ones that we’re going to have in the Supreme Court, all the challenges. But I will give them credit as they get more and more creative and look for other ways to abuse. So, this goes back a year ago, and this was from Gun News Daily. This is under Platkin from the Office of New Jersey Attorney General. (https://gunnewsdaily.com/n-j-offers-free-decals-for-gun-free-zones/) They were offering free gun-free zone decals to establishments wishing to register as designated gun-free areas under the sensitive places law. So, they were actually trying to disarm you in the best way they can. Just getting a bunch of individuals who have their property, any place, storefronts, whatever, and say no. No guns allowed. Don’t defend yourself. And this brings into an issue that I find important. It is a clash of rights, where it is the argument of property rights versus our gun rights. And look, we’ve seen the abuse of property, where you have people coming on to it. You see the squatter issues, and you see many on that end. But when it comes to gun rights, which is our civil right, it’s something that I think is going to come to blows eventually, and I think this needs to be handled. Evan Nappen 31:06 Well, particularly after the Hawaii case, where now the vampire rule is unconstitutional. We’re going to see more regarding sensitive places when the Third Circuit Appeals decision, which should come out shortly on with Koons. The Koons decision on New Jersey’s sensitive places, and I’m excited to see what the panel has to say. But you’re right, Teddy. What they’ll try to do is they’ll try to pit property rights versus gun rights, and they’ll try to still encourage private entities to put up ” gun” signs. This way the clash between property rights and gun rights has to get figured out, because yeah, we have the Hawaii case that talks about places open to the public where the federal government cannot make a law regarding that. Evan Nappen 32:04 But a private entity still has the ability over their private property to decide who can go on it. So, they can say no shoes, no shirt, no service. They can say no animals, no whatever. There’s different things property owners, you know. But the line gets drawn over race because of civil rights. You can’t say no blacks or no Jews or no Hispanics. You can’t do that, but you can limit other things on your property. So, I believe strongly in property rights, and I also believe strongly, big surprise, in gun rights. But what happens is many times with rights there’s a clash of rights. Property rights and gun rights may have a clash here if a property owner doesn’t want guns on their property. Where do we draw the line? Does my right under the Second Amendment, my fundamental, God-given right to defend myself with the Page – 9 – of 11 most effective means, does that right that I have to do that, which is a right 100% established, no question about it. Does that right override or supersede a property owner’s property rights? And that’s where the antis will play that game. They’ll try to get property rights made superior to gun rights, but in reality, that should not be the case. It should be the opposite. Gun rights should be put on the very same plane as civil rights. It is a civil right, and I mean in the same way that you aren’t allowed to exercise racial discrimination, you also cannot discriminate against individuals that are exercising their Second Amendment right, their individual right to keep and bear arms. It belongs in the same class. Teddy Nappen 34:09 Just to go into, like, where the test would be needed for when it, if the Supreme Court ever took a case on this. Basically it would acquire the equal protection clause to where that falls into the category of strict scrutiny, where we’re in the grouping where it’s like you cannot discriminate race, religion, creed, and gun owner, effectively, where you well kind of like. Evan Nappen 34:31 I don’t know. I don’t know if that is a test that will be utilized or not. Because if it’s gun rights, then we have to go back to that historical analog, but when it comes to property rights and how far you can assert it, it’s somewhat of an open question. I can tell you this. Any business stupid enough to put a sign out there that no guns are allowed. So that you are effectively disarming every one of your customers. Get ready to get your ass sued off when a crime occurs in your place of business, and you disarmed the defender who could have otherwise defended themselves. You want that lawsuit? Because that’s what you’re going to get. That’s exactly what you’re going to get. So, think real hard before you put up a “no guns allowed” sign, because the “no guns allowed” sign is also saying sue me if a crime occurs here, and you couldn’t defend yourself. That’s also what that sign says, just not in writing on it. Teddy Nappen 35:37 Was there a case where someone was forced to disarm, and they were either shot or injured because they were disarmed? Evan Nappen 35:47 I believe there have been, but I don’t have them right at my fingertips. But I’ll tell you what. I don’t see a problem with that cause of action. I don’t see a problem because there is tort action in New Jersey called failure to provide adequate security. So, businesses have a duty to provide adequate security. If they ban someone who has a carry license from carrying a gun and protecting themselves, and they have a duty, which they do have, to provide adequate security, then I can well see an excellent civil lawsuit taking place under their duty to provide adequate security. In fact, making the premises less secure by taking away not just a permit to carry holder, but a trained permit to carry holder. And why do I say they’re trained? Because training, my friends, is part of getting your carry permit, isn’t it? In the Carry Killer law, what do they require? CCARE. You’re trained. Trained in what? Use of force. When you can and can’t shoot. Trained in what? How to shoot safely. You must pass and qualify. So, they are stopping state-qualified individuals who have a permit to carry from lawfully defending themselves, and then failing to provide adequate security to those people who they mandated disarm themselves. Good luck with that civil suit. Dumb ass business for putting that sign up. Good luck with that. Page – 10 – of 11 Teddy Nappen 37:34 I’m still waiting on New Jersey trying to force the where they require that class. I remember it was EveryTown was running those stupid classes for training them up for firearms, and it was just a long propaganda wing that they just go through all their talking points. There was barely any knowledge being taught in actually handling the firearms. I’m waiting for New Jersey to force you to take that particular course, so I guess that’d be another abuse to that as well. Who knows? Evan Nappen 38:07 And then those will be challenged too, but the good news is we’re making tremendous progress. I believe really great things are soon on the way here, and I mean within reach. It’s going to be great. But in the meantime, we still have GOFUs taking place, Teddy. We have Gun Owner Fuck Ups. GOFUs, as you know, are expensive mistakes that clients and others have made, and I want to always advise my beloved listeners, about these GOFUs. So that you can learn for free the mistakes that others have made. One of the GOFUs that we see a lot, and I mean a lot, folks, is not knowing what’s in your handbag. Not knowing what’s in your suitcase. Not knowing what’s in your briefcase. When I say not knowing, I mean forgetting that your gun is there. You may think, why would I ever forget that my gun is there? But oh my god, we get the airport cases. We get the folks that are visiting historical places where they have screening. We get cases where people are going to amusement parks. We have all these sporting events, entertainment events, etc. And they’re bringing their backpack, or they’re using a range bag or something that they had used to go to the range or something. Where they had traveled with a gun, and forgot. Evan Nappen 39:43 Folks, be extra careful. Just like Press Checks are free, it’s absolutely free for you to thoroughly and completely empty your purse, empty your bag, empty your suitcase, empty your briefcase, check every pocket. Make sure it’s empty, and then put in what you need. Make sure that you’re not carrying by accident a gun, a magazine, or ammunition. I’ve seen it all, and these things lead to criminal charges. Often they lead to you facing draconian penalties and losing your gun rights. Make sure that you double check any of these bags and make sure you know the places that you’re going as to whether you’re going to be security screened. Evan Nappen 40:40 I’ve had many clients say they walked up and they saw that there was a metal detector or screening taking place, and instead of just turning around, going back to the car, because they suddenly remembered they have it, they figure, well, I’ll just tell them about it. I’ll just be honest and say, look, I have it. What do you want me to do? GOFU. GOFU. If you do that, boom! Next thing you know, the police are involved. Don’t ever go through those security checkpoints of any type with any kind of firearm, accessory, ammo, or anything. It causes tremendous grief, and is one of the top GOFUs that we see every day. Evan Nappen 41:33 This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 11 – of 11 Speaker 3 41:44 Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state. Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E298_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America's Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it's no wonder he's become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets. Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It's Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News. As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists. He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America. Email Evan Your Comments and Questions  talkback@gun.lawyer Join Evan's InnerCircleHere's your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America.  Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL.  Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits.   Email (required) *First Name *Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.var ajaxurl = "https://gun.lawyer/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php";

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We Like Shooting - Ep 664 This episode of We Like Shooting is brought to you by: Foxtrot Mike (Code: WLSISLIFE) Midwest Industries (Code: WLSISLIFE) Blue Alpha Otis Technology (Code: WELIKESHOOTING15) Flatline Fiber Co (Code: WLS15) Bowers Group (Code: WLS) Guests: Tom Bowers – Bowers Group – https://bowersgroup.com Text Dear WLS or Reviews +1 743 500 2171 Public   Show Titles   GOA GOALS Aug 1-2 in Iowa. https://goals.goa.org/ GunCon.net Tickets on sale now. Use code AGENCY171 GEAR CHAT Foxtrot Mike ISU-9 Foxtrot Mike ISU-9 INSTAGRAM(Savage) Stuff and Things o”ST”-14 Groza Kit for PSA Krink 5,048 likes, 78 comments – stuffandthingsinc on May 25, 2026: "The time hath come.". The o”ST”-14 Groza Kit from Stuff and Things is a simplified engineering copy of the Russian OTs-14 Groza bullpup conversion, designed as a bolt-on kit for PSA Krinkov/AK-74U pattern firearms in .300 Blackout or 5.56. The reel from stuffandthingsinc announces that Grozas are shipping this week and displays kit components including the carry handle with installed rear sight, grip module with installed trigger, and linkage. It is an all-metal kit with black phosphate finish that requires no permanent modification to the host firearm (though some fitting may be needed due to AK tolerances). PROOF RESEARCH(Nick) Pxt A New Era of Rifle Barrel Technology The PXT story began around 2018, as the U.S. military pushed to extract greater performance from existing weapons platforms. That effort led PROOF into medium-caliber cannon barrel development and forced a complete reassessment of rifling profiles, twist rates, pressure, projectile behavior, and barrel… BULLET POINTS PEW REPORT Glacier National Park Grizzly Bear Attack on Anthony Pollio On or about May 3, 2026, 33-year-old Anthony Pollio was killed by a bear on the Mount Brown trail in Glacier National Park. A can of bear spray was found near the site. The article contrasts this with the 2014 Mount Brown Trail incident where Brian Murphy successfully stopped a charging grizzly using bear spray followed by one shot from a .357 Magnum revolver at 7-10 feet, after which the bear went down and stopped moving. The .357 Magnum round did not kill the bear but incapacitated it temporarily. No recorded deaths in North America when a handgun was fired in defense against a bear. PEW REPORT Arsenal Inc. Open Letter to NSSF on Virginia Assault Weapons Ban Arsenal Inc., a Nevada-based firearms manufacturer and importer (associated with K-VAR.com), published an open letter dated May 22, 2026, responding to Virginia's newly signed assault weapons and high-capacity magazine ban effective July 1, 2026. The letter frames the law as an unconstitutional restriction that creates legal uncertainty, compliance burdens, and business paralysis for citizens, manufacturers, distributors, retailers, ranges, and trainers nationwide, citing precedents in California and Washington. Arsenal Inc. announces immediate heavy discounts and prioritized shipping for Virginia customers through June 19, 2026, while calling on the NSSF and the broader firearms industry to provide coordinated legal, grassroots, and public support, treating the issue as national rather than state-specific. PEW REPORT AI Could Render the Federal Ban on Creating a Gun Registry Obsolete Article discusses a University of Wyoming Firearms Research Center working paper arguing that AI systems could create ‘registry-equivalent knowledge' by extracting, linking, and inferring firearm ownership data from ATF's existing 921 million digitized records (including Form 4473s, out-of-business dealer records, and NICS metadata containing names, addresses, and serial numbers). This would bypass the intent of 18 U.S.C. § 926(a) prohibiting any system of registration of firearms, owners, or transactions, especially as federal AI policy integrates more data. No specific firearms, accessories, or field gear are mentioned. GUN FIGHTS Play the best Price Is Right-style GunBroker game on the internet. WLS IS LIFESTYLE Pistol Grip Angle: Ergonomics and Natural Point of Aim Considerations does grip angle matter on pistols. GOING BALLISTIC BEARINGARMS.COM(Savage) Washington State Gun Control Laws Fail to Curb Crime on Seattle's Aurora Avenue Seattle residents struggle with rising crime despite Washington state's gun control laws. Washington state has enacted multiple gun control measures including waiting periods, red flag laws, universal background checks, high-capacity magazine bans, and assault weapon bans. Despite these, residents near Aurora Avenue in Seattle report uncontrolled drug dealing, prostitution, and shootings, with minimal response from city officials. Neighbors have erected reinforced barriers and posted “No Gunfire” signs while the mayor's office announced increased patrols by the Gun Violence Reduction Unit and community-led efforts; the article argues the focus on lawful gun ownership over criminal enforcement, combined with local taxes driving out FFLs, has left residents scrambling for protection and exercising Second Amendment rights. BREITBART(Savage) Indiana Police Chief Earl D. Mayo Faces Felony Charges for Allegedly Selling Guns from Evidence Room The police chief of New Chicago, Indiana, Earl D. Mayo, is facing felony charges over accusations that he sold guns from police investigations to a pawn shop. Earl D. Mayo, 45, Chief of the New Chicago, Indiana Police Department, was arrested in Clark County, Ohio and charged with seven felonies (two counts of theft, two counts of official misconduct, one count of attempted obstruction of justice, and two counts of unlawful possession of anabolic steroids) plus one misdemeanor theft count. He is accused of selling guns seized during police investigations to a pawn shop. A 47-year-old woman, Taneka Roshawn Borders, faces related charges of attempted obstruction of justice and possession of anabolic steroids for allegedly attempting to repurchase one of the guns on his behalf with $600. BEARINGARMS.COM(Savage) Virginia Governor Spanberger and AG Jay Jones Respond to Prosecutors Refusing to Enforce Assault Firearm and Large-Capacity Magazine Ban Virginia officials respond as prosecutors refuse to enforce new gun and magazine ban laws. Multiple Commonwealth's Attorneys and sheriffs across Virginia have publicly stated they will not enforce new laws banning the sale, manufacture, transfer of assault firearms and magazines over 15 rounds, plus a public carry prohibition on assault firearms, citing unconstitutionality. The measures take effect July 1. AG Jay Jones and a spokesperson for Governor Spanberger issued statements urging enforcement, emphasizing the laws were passed by the General Assembly to reduce gun violence. BEARINGARMS.COM(Savage) The Left Seems to Be Waking Up to Racist Gun Control Laws – Bearing Arms (Tom Knighton, May 26, 2026) Exploring racial bias in gun control laws and the ongoing fight for equal Second Amendment rights. This Bearing Arms opinion column discusses a Slate article by Aymann Ismail detailing his multi-year struggle to obtain a Firearm Purchaser Identification in New Jersey due to discretionary permitting practices by the Newark Police Department. The piece highlights historical racist motivations behind many early U.S. gun control measures (targeting non-whites and Catholics) and draws a through-line to modern subjective permitting systems that produce racial disparities in approval rates. It references the 1868 Camilla Massacre in Georgia as the origin of a now-invalidated ‘public gathering' carry prohibition and argues that the Supreme Court's Bruen decision properly eliminated such discretionary laws prone to abuse. GUNS.COM(Savage) Firearm Freedom Act (H.R. by Rep. Jimmy Patronis, R-FL) to Repeal Hughes Amendment The Firearm Freedom Act would eliminate the legacy Hughes Amendment that bars the purchase, ownership, and transfer of newly manufactured machine guns made after 1986. The Firearm Freedom Act, introduced by Republican Rep. Jimmy Patronis of Florida in May 2026, seeks to repeal the Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986. The Hughes Amendment prohibits the purchase, ownership, and transfer of newly manufactured machine guns made after 1986. The bill is endorsed by Gun Owners of America; no cosponsors, passage status, or court cases are mentioned in the source article. PEW REPORT GOA and GOF File Lawsuit Challenging Virginia SB749 Assault Weapons Ban and SB727 Public Carry Ban Gun Owners of America (GOA), Gun Owners Foundation (GOF), Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL), and 2A journalist John Crump filed suit against Virginia SB749 and SB727. The bills criminalize purchase and transfer of commonly-owned firearms and standard-capacity magazines while restricting public carry/self-defense; both take effect July 1. The complaint seeks declaratory judgment and injunction, arguing the measures violate the Second Amendment and Article I, Section 13 of the Virginia Constitution. PEW REPORT Nebraska Woman Injured by Shotgun Accidentally Discharged by Dog in Vehicle, Scottsbluff On Saturday in Scottsbluff, Nebraska, a woman standing at a traffic light near a convenience store was struck in the arm by a shotgun pellet after a dog in the back seat of a nearby truck triggered the discharge of a loaded shotgun. The injury was non-life-threatening; she was hospitalized. Police determined the vehicle had a damaged door from the blast and noted that Nebraska law prohibits transporting a loaded shotgun. PEW REPORT Maryland SB 334 (2026) – Criminal Law – Firearm Crimes – Machine Gun Convertible Pistols (Glock Ban) Governor Wes Moore signed SB 334 into law....

This morning Ashley opens up about why she is so happy that the girl she is seeing didn't ask her this when they were in the talking phases See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ashley thinks that this fast food establishment is overhyped! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Have you ever gotten the 'you look better than you do on social media'? Well Ashley went out of town this past weekend to see a girl she has been talking to and was told just that! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, Dr. Patrick Porter, Ashok Gupta, and Jack Savage explore with Tara how brain retraining, better sleep, targeted tech like BrainTap, and gentler stimulants with ingredients such as L‑theanine and medicinal mushrooms can calm an overstimulated nervous system and improve focus. Dr. Patrick K. Porter, PhD, is an award-winning author/speaker and the founder of BrainTap®, the leader in technology-enhanced meditation. Dr. Porter pioneered the use of brainwave entrainment to improve clarity, sleep & energy, and remains at the forefront of scientific research. He founded BrainTap with the goal of making this technology accessible to everyone. BrainTap offers over 1800 original audio sessions in 12 languages and serves a worldwide user base with its mobile app and headset.  Ashok Gupta is the mind behind The Gupta Program and a leading expert in the field of neuroimmune conditioned syndromes (NICS). Ashok is an internationally renowned Speaker, Filmmaker & Health Practitioner who has dedicated his life to supporting people through chronic illness, and achieving their potential. As someone who's always had trouble focusing, Jack Savage was prescribed stimulants at the age of 5 until high blood pressure gave cause for serious concern. He quit cold turkey and started drinking lots of coffee. After 1-2 hours of ineffective energy, he'd crash or if he drank too much, he'd feel jittery and anxious. That's when he started researching biohacking, nutrition and functional mushrooms. Jack found that basically all mushrooms are magical, especially when combined with nootropics. This led him to the ingredients in Everyday Dose, which have allowed him to regain control of his life for the first time. RESOURCES: Learn more about Dr. Porter here: https://www.taragarrison.com/blog/drpatrickporter | Instagram: @braintaptech  @drpatrickporter Learn more about Ashok Gupta here: http://www.guptaprogram.com/ | Instagram: @guptaprogram Learn more about Jack Savage here: https://www.everydaydose.com/COACHTARA | Instagram: @everydaydose  Get 10% off Peluva minimalist shoe with coupon code COACHTARA here: http://peluva.com/coachtara Watch the full interview here:  Dr. Porter: https://www.taragarrison.com/blog/drpatrickporter Ashok Gupta: https://www.taragarrison.com/blog/ashokgupta Jack Savage: https://www.taragarrison.com/blog/jacksavage   CHAPTERS: 00:03 – Intro: survival mode and calmer brain 00:23 – Expert stack: Porter, Gupta, Jack from Everyday Dose 04:19 – Sponsor: Peluva barefoot shoes ad 07:12 – Aging and memory, elders and wisdom 08:26 – Pills vs lifestyle: energy, sleep, movement 08:52 – Dementia‑spectrum women's BrainTap study 10:54 – Diagnosis impact and 3×/day BrainTap protocol 11:58 – Morning SMR, coffee dependence, balance/vestibular 13:26 – Afternoon reboot, HRV, memory and focus 15:27 – Night delta session and flipped cortisol 15:46 – 39% neuroplastic change and "senior moments" 18:19 – Off the dementia spectrum and better balance 18:52 – Seminole College golf team and alpha waves 21:20 – BrainTap app vs headset, light and sound 24:00 – Brazil app‑only study vs opioids for pain 37:20 – Psilocybin‑like gamma patterns with BrainTap 44:59 – Everyday Dose coffee extract and low acidity 45:13 – Lion's mane, chaga, fruiting bodies vs mycelium 49:35 – L‑theanine in Everyday Dose and ADHD focus   WORK WITH TARA: Are You Looking for Help on Your Wellness Journey? Here's how Tara can help you: TRY TARA'S APP FOR FREE: http://taragarrison.com/app INDIVIDUAL ONLINE COACHING: https://www.taragarrison.com/work-with-me CHECK OUT HIGHER RETREATS: https://www.taragarrison.com/retreats   SOCIAL MEDIA:  Instagram @coachtaragarrison TikTok @coachtaragarrison Facebook @coachtaragarrison Pinterest @coachtaragarrison   INSIDE OUT HEALTH PODCAST SPECIAL OFFERS: ☑️ Upgraded Formulas Hair Test Kit Special Offer: https://bit.ly/3YdMn4Z ☑️ Upgraded Formulas - Get 15% OFF Everything with Coupon Code INSIDEOUT15: https://upgradedformulas.com/INSIDEOUT15 ☑️ Rep Provisions: Vote for the future of food with your dollar! And enjoy a 15% discount while you're at it with Coupon Code COACHTARA: https://bit.ly/3dD4ZSv   If you loved this episode, please leave a review! Here's how to do it on Apple Podcasts: Go to Inside Out Health Podcast page: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/inside-out-health-with-coach-tara-garrison/id1468368093 Scroll down to the 'Ratings & Reviews' section. Tap 'Write a Review' (you may be prompted to log in with your Apple ID). Thank you!

Ashley Nics is going to be picking up a new hobby... but is it a good idea?!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This morning we find out that the birthday party Ashley attended over the weekend ruined her friend's birthday surprise! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ashley is going to a friend's birthday party and she has to pay to attend... but should she have to get her a gift? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Title:John Lott EXPOSES the Background Check FAILURE Nobody Wants You to See Podcast Description: Dr. John Lott joins Armed American Radio host Mark Walters for a hard-hitting deep dive into America's broken federal gun background check system, Second Amendment rights, ATF overreach, and the truth behind firearm statistics the mainstream media refuses to discuss. In this explosive conversation, John Lott breaks down shocking data showing millions of failed and false NICS background check denials, why innocent Americans are getting caught in the system, and how the DOJ and FBI allegedly hid critical information from the public for years. The discussion also exposes how Form 4473 errors, unconstitutional delays, and bureaucratic failures impact law-abiding gun owners across the country. The show also tackles: Federal gun background check failures FBI and DOJ transparency issues ATF enforcement and firearm regulations Thomas Massie's efforts to expose NICS errors Gun control myths vs real crime statistics Why criminals don't buy guns legally Firearm homicide data manipulation Brazil, Mexico, Venezuela, and U.S. gun violence comparisons The Second Amendment under attack Concealed carry rights and self-defense Gun ownership in America NRA, gun rights activism, and constitutional freedoms Plus, Mark Walters discusses the growing fight against anti-gun narratives, the media's obsession with gun control, and why millions of responsible American gun owners continue to defend liberty and freedom. If you care about the Constitution, gun rights, self-defense, concealed carry, firearms policy, ATF regulations, NICS background checks, and protecting the Second Amendment, this episode is a must-listen. #JohnLott #SecondAmendment #GunRights #NICS #ATF #GunControl #MarkWalters #ArmedAmericanRadio #2A #ConcealedCarry #Firearms #SelfDefense #NRA #DOJ #FBI #Form4473 #GunOwners #Freedom #Constitution #Podcast

Yesterday Joe was part of a conference and was able to speak in front of our beloved advertisers. But Ashley noticed that Katie Sommers & Jed did something a little weird..See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Was Ashley caught flirting with the manager at a restaurant so she could get free meals? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ashley might have put her foot in her mouth when she said this about Joe and one of his commercials... See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How many times have you gone to a movie theatre to see a movie? Ashley is going back to the Michael Jackson biopic for a second and third timeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ashley mentioned to us that she doesn't feel safe in the studio because Joe & Jed aren't packing heat! Should she buy her own gun? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is something that you will admit to stealing from a restaurant? Last night we had a team dinner and one member of the show stole this item from the restaurant we were eating at. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Over the weekend Ashley went out of town to visit her family in LA. But she forgot something very important on her trip.... CAR KEYS! Did she have her car stolen? and how was she able to find her missing keys? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode 288-Elections Have Consequences-Sometimes Good Ones  Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode Transcript Page – 1 – of 18 Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 288 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Gun laws, ATF, DOJ, President Trump, Second Amendment, interstate firearm transport, FOPA, administrative code, private sales, bump stocks, youth handgun safety, NFA items, Miranda rights, Fish and Game, hunting violations. SPEAKERS Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Louis Nappen Evan Nappen 00:18 I’m Evan Nappen. Teddy Nappen 00:20 And I’m Teddy Nappen. Evan Nappen 00:22 And also with us today is Louis Nappen. So, we have a very special show, and it’s going to be very interesting in terms of things that you need to know to protect yourself. And some very, very exciting news here out of the ATF, the DOJ, and of course, this is due to President Trump. President Trump, as you may recall, ordered a full review of gun laws. Things that could be done to improve and change the laws, and this includes what are known as final rules and proposed rules. The rules are the Administrative Code. Evan Nappen 01:10 Under federal law, you have statutes that are passed by Congress and signed into law, and then you have what is the federal code. The code is done by administration. Those are the various agencies that propose rules that can and do, in fact, have the force of law, and they are used to interpret the law. These agency rules are very important in how courts and prosecutors will be guided, and the rules are extremely, can be extremely, helpful for individuals that face legal issues in being able to defend themselves. Now, of course, the Biden administration abused these, this rulemaking authority to create anti-Second Amendment gun rights oppression. Rules that he couldn’t get passed legislatively. Well, President Trump, through the DOJ and ATF, has put an amazing package together of 34 new and proposed rules, and I want to talk about a number of them and highlight ones that are particularly important. Evan Nappen 02:43 So, President Trump, remember, signed that Executive Order. It was EO 14206, protecting Second Amendment rights. (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2025/02/12/2025-02636/protecting-second-amendment-rights) Now, this review went on for a year, and now we see the fruits of this very Page – 2 – of 18 intensive review. One of the key things that is going to be of major effect to just uncountable numbers of gun owners is the easing of interstate firearm transport. There will be no more “gun free zone” nightmares. That is something he set out to do. I’ve looked at many, many sources, and many different articles, primary sources, and I just want to say that I found a great, great article here called “DOJ and ATF Release Landmark 34-Rule Package Bolstering 2A Rights” by GunStuff TV Reporter. (https://gunstuff.tv/doj-and-atf-release-landmark-34-rule-package-bolstering-2a-rights-easier-interstate-transport-ffl-sales-and-nfa-processes/) Evan Nappen 03:48 I found that this article did an excellent job. I just want to point out that, as this article states, the actual rule itself hasn’t been published, but information has gotten out. Get a load of what the new FOPA (Firearm Owners Protection Act), the new firearm interstate transport protections that are going to come. It’s going to absolutely make it explicit that FOPA, meaning the Firearm Owners Protection Act, protections for unloaded, locked firearms in vehicles, even with states with draconian assault weapon bans. Hint, hint. Like New Jersey, the DPRNJ, Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey and other states. A new safe passage presumption for hunters, sport shooters, and travelers with valid permits from their home state. So, this is now laying groundwork here for administrative recognition of carry permits. A continuing step forward, honestly, for gaining full national reciprocity. This is a great step in that direction. Evan Nappen 05:10 Also, streamlining documentation requirements. No more notary-stamped affidavits just to prove you’re not a criminal. Again, with recognition of these documents laying more groundwork for national reciprocity. Enforcing, expanding and clarifying the FOPA for interstate transport. Let me tell you, folks. It’s something that we deal with all the time in the practice. We have folks coming through New Jersey who are getting arrested, getting charged, and we have to fight and assert Title 18-926a. With these Administrative Code changes, just on that alone, it’ll be of tremendous help. There are many other things in this bill. Let me give you some highlights. Not bill, in this Administrative Code. Here are some great highlights. They were going to remove the pistol stabilizing brace, full rescission of that so-called factoring criteria rule, where they turned millions of brace pistols into unregistered SBRs. Even though courts have already put injunctions on it, this rule will make it crystal clear as a Federal Code regulation. Teddy Nappen 06:28 Now the ATF won’t be trying to break down your door for them. Evan Nappen 06:31 Right! And then the “engaged in business” definition, this was a really evil thing that Biden and company did, where they expanded what “engaged in business” meant. So that if you just happen to sell a gun in a lawful private sale, they would claim that you are a dealer. They were trying to just destroy any private sales. Now, of course, in New Jersey, private sales are prohibited by state law, but in real America, they are not. This federal attempt to turn every private seller into a dealer is being removed and taken away so that the statutory standard returns to the standard from the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act deal. There’s also going to be, in machine guns, removal of bump stock Page – 3 – of 18 language to comply with Cargill, the Supreme Court case of Garland v. Cargill. They’re going to remove that language, get rid of it. So that it’s crystal clear about bump stocks, but New Jersey has their state ban. But still again, it’s great news. Evan Nappen 07:49 Federally, they’re ending the ridiculous Youth Handgun Safety Act notices. You don’t have to, you won’t have to have those signs everywhere and giving out pamphlets. That’s always the first thing everybody throws away, right? Just think of how many trees are going to saved by getting rid of that. So, that’s part of it. They’re modernizing paperwork, folks. It’s really amazing. They’re going to do a comprehensive overhaul of the 4473. That’s the paper that you sign federally. And they’re going to make it so that when you have a NICS check, it’s valid for even a longer period of time. They’re going to incorporate electronic forms in the way you can do NFA now electronically, and that’ll be way faster auto population. You’ll be able to go online, auto populate, have it filed, even before you go to a dealer. Evan Nappen 08:49 And even more interesting is that this is going to lay the groundwork for mail-order guns. That’s right, folks. Mail-order guns. How can that be? Well, I’ll tell you. Right now, you can, if you didn’t live in the DPRNJ, of course, you can buy a silencer, and it can be shipped directly to your door. Even when you buy, for example, from Silencer Central (https://www.silencercentral.com/), they have it all set. They have a network of dealers through the states where suppressors are legal. The paperwork is processed electronically, and the silencer gets delivered direct to your door through this network. With the changes happening here, you’ll be able to go online, find a gun that you like from who knows, one of the major distributors or companies that will be out there, online order what you want, and do your 4473 through an auto-fill interface. Making it even easier. The same way they do it now for suppressors. And that firearm will then be shipped to your door. You don’t even have to leave your home. So, that’s where this is going. Evan Nappen 10:08 It’ll expand it and make it so it takes another good slice out of interstate handgun prohibition. You’ll be able to purchase on a countrywide basis, even though there’s a local dealer network that gets incorporated. It will follow, I’m sure, the silencer model that you see operating right now. Allowing for electronic record keeping, getting rid of the infinite record retention. Remember now, they tried to make it so that every 4473, all the records, the A and D have to be kept forever. Nope. That’s going to be limited either to 20 or 30 years instead, and then they get destroyed. Setting up Easy Check, even better for FFLs, and easing same state sales so that you can get over this non over the counter sales issue that requires, again, physical presence, going to the store. All that. This system is going to revolutionize and modernize our ability on purchase of firearms. Evan Nappen 11:25 Of course, the interstate transport is major. Then, if you’re doing anything with NFA, because maybe you have dual residency or you live in a free state, as opposed to, let’s say New Jersey, and you have NFA items, well, some very interesting things here on the NFA side for the National Firearms Act. Right now, the way the law was, if you want to transport, let’s say, your full auto interstate from one gun legal state to another, you have to get permission in advance. They’re getting rid of that. As long as you’re Page – 4 – of 18 not going for more than a year, you won’t have to get advance approval for moving your NFA items. When you register to buy items through NFA, they’re going to allow joint spousal registration. So, you can just jointly own, let’s say a suppressor or full auto, or whatever you’re doing without the need to have a trust. Evan Nappen 12:28 They’re getting rid of, no more CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) notification. So, that is an important start. Way back, we had where whenever you wanted to buy anything NFA, and it’s the old days of paper, of course, with NFA, the Chief Law Enforcement Officer wherever you lived, had to approve your NFA acquisition. Whether it was a suppressor, full auto, DD, SBR, whatever it was, they had to do the CLEO sign off. And if the Chief Law Enforcement Officer just decided, hey, I don’t think anyone should have one of these, and I’m not signing it, even though there’s no reason against you personally, there was nothing you could do about it. Nothing. You were dead in the water and couldn’t make your NFA acquisition. Lo and behold, NFA trusts became the loophole. If you set up an NFA trust, they were not subjected to the CLEO notification. So that’s why most folks went with that, because you avoided it entirely. Hence, ATF ended up with 10,000 trusts that was specifically getting rid of this rule. It led to the loophole. Let’s say we’ll call it that. The loophole creating the freedom, because then ATF said, guess what? We’re not going to require the Chief Law Enforcement Officer to have to approve it anymore. Instead, we just give them notice. They just get notice. Well, now they’re not even going to get notice. They’re out of the picture. There’s no reason for it. What? The federal government can’t handle it themselves? Of course, they can. No more CLEO notification. It’ll speed things up. On the interstate transport issue, just so you know, normal travel stops are going to be specifically acknowledged for what we call in New Jersey, reasonable, reasonable deviation, and I’m sure even more expansive than that. Yeah, Teddy? Teddy Nappen 14:50 Well, one of the things that, the big freak out that people seem to be having is with like, even The Trace. They were so freaking out of the proposal. (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/04/atf-gun-rule-changes-cekada/) They put out a whole article today, sorry, April 30, talking about like the they’re removing the modern gun reforms. They always like to play off like that every time. The thing they were pointing at the most is the attack on removing the predominantly earn a profit. The requirement for firearm sellers who predominantly earn a profit to get a license, which that was just a catch all weasel clause that they were going to heavily abuse if it had stayed. So, I just thought. Evan Nappen 15:35 That’s true. Teddy Nappen 15:35 I just thought and. Evan Nappen 15:37 They did, in fact. That’s what led to that individual when they made, I don’t remember his name right off, but he ended up shot and killed. He was a decent, law-abiding guy, where they tried to claim he was Page – 5 – of 18 acting as a private deal under this definition, and he was essentially, you know, killed over that law itself. Teddy Nappen 16:02 So, they’re aim is to close that. Evan Nappen 16:04 Yeah. This is closely get rid of. Teddy Nappen 16:07 The justification they always give is to close the gun show loophole, which is still a hoax. That’s a hoax. It’s already been disproven. I think it goes back to Obama, who said, like, I think it was the Arizona Gun Show for that to get to Illinois, which, that’s total crap. But, again, they never get tired of trotting out the whole false facts. Evan Nappen 16:32 Nope, they don’t. And this is great because it was the gun rights suppressors that are funded by, you know, our billionaire Leftist groups that pushed all this. That infiltrated through the Biden administration. That got federal funding, even to those organizations who, through their think tanks, created all these new ways of oppression. Trump is surgical, not just surgically removing everything that they put in, but expanding into wins for us across the board. It’s very exciting, and it’s great to see. It’s going to help so many people, even many, many of those that have cases pending now. Evan Nappen 17:27 Hey, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They have a phenomenal range there. It’s where Teddy and I and Lou, we all shoot there. We all got our certifications there. They have a great pro shop, a great range, and great training. You need to check out WeShoot in Lakewood. You can go to their website, which is, of course, weshootusa.com. They have just wonderful folks. We love it there. I want to mention that on May 21 they’ll be having the Diversity Shoot at WeShoot. That’s with our friend Tony Simon. He’s back at WeShoot. And this is just a great night, an unforgettable night. It’ll be Thursday, May 21 ,and it’s only $20. Seriously, just 20 bucks. And there is free pizza. I think you can probably get your 20 bucks in pizza and drinks alone. So, go there. You’ll be able to talk with Tony. Have a real conversations about your rights and all the good stuff that we all care about. You’ll have hands-on experience, and you’ll get to try some really cool gear. Check out the great handguns and rifles. You’ll be able to shoot and get some training and learning. There’s range time, targets, you name it. It’s all covered, even rental. Everything’s covered. It’s great. They have prizes. This is an awesome event. Put it on your calendar, folks, for me, May 21st at WeShoot. Just check it out right online at weshootusa.com. Evan Nappen 19:38 Let me also mention my book. I will shamelessly promote my book at all times. Go to EvanNappen.com and order your copy today. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all in a question and answer format that makes it easy for you to deal with the insane matrix of gun laws that exist in the DPRNJ. Speaking of Page – 6 – of 18 which, we have here today, my brother and ace attorney of the firm, Louis, who is going to be talking to us today about the very important. Wait, wait. Before we what? What, Teddy? Teddy Nappen 20:27 I just wanted to point out something. Again, I wanted it for the article regarding the whole ATF changes. I love how The Trace try to paint this as they’re adding new rules. Part of the package would make it easier for dealers to travel across state lines and stop for hotels, gas stations or food, even in stricter gun laws states. Evan Nappen 20:53 Oh my G-d! Teddy Nappen 20:55 I know. Yeah. Evan Nappen 20:57 It’s almost like freedom or something weird like that. Teddy Nappen 21:02 And almost like there isn’t the federal protection where you’re going from one place to another place, right? Evan Nappen 21:06 Oh, my goodness, The Trace. The Trace should make their logo like somebody just clutching pearls. They’re just pearl clutching all the time. Oh, please spare me. So, normally, you know, at the end of our show, we do the GOFU. But today, with Brother Lou here, we have a very important GOFU, and we’re going to expand and learn about this very serious GOFU that affects our sportsmen, our hunters, and firsthand, I want you to get a more in depth understanding. As you know, GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups, where gun owners make mistakes. This is a mistake that we’ve seen, and I don’t want you to make. Lou. Louis Nappen 21:57 I’d like to say hello to my brother. You said, I’m your brother. You’re also my brother. Evan Nappen 22:03 No way! When did that happen? Louis Nappen 22:05 Okay. So, what this one is, actually, you could call it a GOFAG GOFU because it’s Fish And Game. It’s a Gun Owner Fish And Game GOFU. Anyway, moving on. This is about. Evan Nappen 22:21 Yes. Please, quickly. Page – 7 – of 18 Louis Nappen 22:22 Ha, ha, ha. This is this about. Teddy Nappen 22:25 We’re talking about cigarettes. Evan Nappen 22:27 Okay, that’s right, and bundles of twigs. Louis Nappen 22:32 The situation here that I actually brought to Evan’s attention, because I currently have there was a big fishing game. When I say Fish and Game, you might know it as fish and wildlife or conservation officers. There was a whole slew that we got hit with to represent on, a whole bunch this year is a nice crop. I have three in particular that I’d like to discuss, and I saw the same pattern of GOFU in three different cases. So, three different hunters did these exact same, not the exact same thing, but they screwed up the same way. And I don’t want other hunters doing this. I want them to learn from others mistakes here. So, first off, in Fish and Game, it’s not about the fines. The fines, if you get charged, some people just mail it in. You know, it’s $50 because of some minor offense. They think that’s all. That it’s like an ordinance, but it’s not. These are civil matters that cannot be expunged, and that’s important. Why is that important? Because if you get a second Fish and Game violation conviction within five years, you lose your hunting privileges in New Jersey. This is New Jersey, how New Jersey operates. Not sure about, and I don’t want to talk about other states, because I’m not an attorney in other states, other than Vermont. But they cannot be expunged. And because of that, if you get another one, there is a chance after that, within five years, you can permanently lose your hunting privileges in New Jersey. That is a serious consequence of not doing something that we should all be doing, which I’m going to get to in a second. Evan Nappen 24:18 And there’s even more consequences. Louis Nappen 24:20 Yes. Evan Nappen 24:21 And that has to do with what? Your Second Amendment rights themselves. Why don’t you tell us? Louis Nappen 24:27 Well, I’d like to, if this is what you’re getting at, the Fish and Game violations when you have that, even the accusation to a point, they can be used in permit hearings, if you apply, because those are summary hearings. Evan Nappen 24:43 That’s right! Page – 8 – of 18 Louis Nappen 24:44 And so, they can say you’re not safe with a firearm. We’re not going to let you have a firearm. Evan Nappen 24:49 Exactly! Louis Nappen 24:50 Or if you get a weapon forfeiture, say you get a restraining order. Even if the restraining order is dismissed, they can then raise anything, anything. It’s summary in nature. It’s a kangaroo court. They can say, look at these Fish and Game violations you have. You don’t get firearms because it’s the same qualifications they’re looking at. Evan Nappen 24:52 More than that. We need the listeners to know that Fish and Game charges can lead to criminal charges as well. We’ve seen that happen. Louis Nappen 25:18 Yes! Evan Nappen 25:18 Keep going. I just wanted to have that. Louis Nappen 25:20 So, keep that in mind. Now, if a fish a Conservation Officer walks up to you. I can use these terms interchangeably. It’s how we talk about them. Sometimes derogatively, they’re called Fish Cops. I’ve heard that, too. But nonetheless, if you’re stopped by one of these, you think they’ll either come out of the tree, or what have you, you do have to show your hunting qualifications, that you are hunting properly. That you have the hunting license. So, you hand them that. It’s very much like being stopped in your car, and you need to show license, registration, and insurance. But that’s basically where that should stop, on your end, of cooperation. Similarly, in a car, of course, you know you should, at least in New Jersey with DUIs, you should also do the blow because you don’t want to have an automatic refusal. So, there’s only a few things under the law where you have to really do something, and this is one of those in that sense. Louis Nappen 26:20 But once you hand them your license and they say these look in order, or something like that, you ask, or you want to, you explain you want to go back to hunting. Am I free to leave? Is the term. And this is true out in the street. If you get stopped by a police officer, am I free to leave? Because that kicks in in your head, or it should. They don’t want me to leave. They’re looking for something else. They want more from me. These often. Evan Nappen 26:50 And if you’re not free to leave, you’re in custody. Page – 9 – of 18 Louis Nappen 26:53 You’re in custody at that point because you’re not free to leave. So, the bottom line is that should click in your head. That your Fourth and Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights kick in. Evan Nappen 27:06 That’s right. When you look at the those rights in the Constitution, they don’t say, you know, the right against self-incrimination, unless it’s a fish cop talking to you. No. There is no exemption for that. Louis Nappen 27:22 Exactly. They are law enforcement officers. I have to tell you, Evan, that all three officers in these different cases, there’s more than three because many, some of them had more than one there. They are very friendly. They would be very friendly, you know. But they are not hall monitors and crossing guards. That’s not what they are. They are there to enforce the law, and they will get you to talk by being friendly and chatty. You don’t want to fall for that. If they say you are not free to leave, they’re pushing for more than that. The bottom line is that at some point it’s less of an investigate. It’s not just merely investigatory. It’s actually an interrogation designed to elicit self-incrimination out of you. And that is when your Miranda rights should kick in. When they are questioning you, to get you to admit to anything that could be used against you. Louis Nappen 28:27 Now, let’s think about that in terms of what they are. You’ve heard it on every TV show, but what are your rights? Think about what they’re telling you in your Miranda rights. Now, they’re supposed to do that. But they can get more out of you, because they can claim at some in some aspects, that it’s investigatory and it was just a friendly conversation. Some judges buy that. Remember, this is Municipal Court judges. They don’t do a lot of Fish and Game cases, and they don’t think of it in these terms. They will tell you that you have a right to remain silent. Well, if you’re being told that you have a right to remain silent, remain silent! You have that right regardless of whether they read you these Miranda rights. Teddy Nappen 29:06 Out of curiosity, though, when you’re dealing with a Fish and Game officer, is there any other disclosures that you have to make? Or is it just the same standard, like a normal cop? Louis Nappen 29:18 Okay. The same as are you free to leave. It goes with that. They will ask sometimes to please hand over your firearm so they can safely put it to the side. If they take your firearm, you know you’re not free to leave because they have your firearm. You can’t hunt at that point. Evan Nappen 29:33 Also, keep in mind, if you’re lawfully carrying, you still have the Duty to Disclose. Louis Nappen 29:40 Good point. Page – 10 – of 18 Evan Nappen 29:41 Because you’re being detained. Louis Nappen 29:44 Yeah. Although, in New Jersey, typically. Louis Nappen 29:45 You need to immediately say I am carrying. As soon as you are stopped or detained, you have that obligation to tell the officer if you’re carrying, too. Louis Nappen 30:00 So, think about this, though, the next part of that famous paragraph. Anything you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law. Does it say, anything you say will be exculpatory so we won’t convict you? Evan Nappen 30:16 No. They’re not. Louis Nappen 30:17 They’re not saying that. They’re saying it can and it will. I don’t know of anybody who’s ever talked themselves out of a ticket or out of a citation. At best, it’s neutral. But almost always it’s you’re talking. You don’t even know what you’re saying. You’re saying things that may be used because you don’t know what they’re investigating. And that will be used against you. So, keep that in mind. You don’t want to talk. The next one is you have the right to an attorney. Well, as soon as you. Evan Nappen 30:45 Wait. Let me just. I need to say one other thing on that. You have a right to say nothing except, arguably, pedigree information. You know, who you are. You know, identify yourself. Louis Nappen 30:57 Yeah, you do have to identify yourself. Evan Nappen 30:58 But, short of that, you don’t have to say anything else. You need to keep in mind that police and law enforcement have a license to lie. They’re allowed to lie. You’re not allowed to lie. They are. So, anything they say, you cannot take to the bank because they have a license to lie. And I know of an actual Fish and Game case, not handled by us, where they accused a person of shooting a deer during bow season. Yet, when he checked it in, you know, it had an arrow, but they felt that it was shot. The person who checked it in wasn’t so smart, and the officers went and took a metal detector. They claimed that the metal detector picked up traces of metal, you know, lead or the bullet, even though it would not even have done that, and they convinced the person by gaming them in this way. And that’s perfectly fine. So, you can’t believe it. Page – 11 – of 18 Louis Nappen 32:00 Yeah. You have the right to an attorney. So, one of the things you could say, in addition to, you know, may I leave? Then, of course, what some people do is stick around. No. If they say, you have a right to leave, leave! Go back to doing something. Go to your car. Get the heck out of there. Evan Nappen 32:15 Right! This is like right out of with Clint Eastwood when Tuco, the guy goes in, you know, he starts talking, and Tuco shoots him from the tub. He goes, he goes, if you’re gonna shoot, shoot, don’t talk. Well, the same idea. If you’re gonna leave, leave. Louis Nappen 32:16 Right, right. Like Ron White’s joke. I had the right to remain silent, but I didn’t have the ability. Evan Nappen 32:45 Yeah! Ha, ha. Teddy Nappen 32:48 Uncle Lou, I just had a question regarding the actual bit of when you’re in the court, what is the setting? Is it more like a hearing when you’re dealing with Fish and Game violations? Louis Nappen 32:59 I’m gonna get to that in a little bit. Let me just finish with the Miranda here. So, you have the right to an attorney. So, what you can say is, am I free to leave? If they say, no, you say that I want an attorney. Questioning should stop as soon as you say, I want my attorney. If you can’t afford an attorney, one will be provided to you. That’s a joke, because you’re going to get a public defender who handles, if lucky, one Fish and Game matter a year. They are just going to want to settle something, maybe mitigate down to one or two, you know, whatever it is. You get what you pay for. And if you get a free attorney, you’re getting what you pay for. And then they ask you, do you understand these rights I’ve read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me? So, they’re telling you all of this. And then I’ll tell you, show you one person and one of these three cases, they were read their rights. They make you sign a form that you understand these rights. And then they went and spoke and showed them everything that they did. Why? Teddy Nappen 33:56 Because it’s the training. It comes back to law and order. Anything you show it’s the training of like, Oh, if I’m not a bad person, I’m not gonna lie. Louis Nappen 34:05 No, no. Of course, you’re going to be honest and put yourself honestly into a plea of guilt or finding of guilt. Okay. They don’t show you in the procedurals on TV. Every time they bring the defendant in, he talks. It’s ridiculous, but that’s beside the point. So, or it is the point. They are law enforcement officers, if I’m going to cut to the chase, and you do the minimum amount of interaction with them. If they approach you, then you have to do these things. But bear in mind your rights. Don’t give them away. Page – 12 – of 18 You’re going to do yourself a favor by not giving them away, not speaking, and you’re going to do your attorney a favor by not speaking. You won’t even get charged, most likely, if you don’t speak. Evan Nappen 34:57 Think of all the great men and women who sacrificed for those rights, and you’re just going to waive them? You’re just going to give them up? We have these rights, and we treasure our Second Amendment rights. Treasure all the rights. We have a right against self-incrimination, and you have a right to counsel. You want to take advantage of those rights. Louis Nappen 35:17 That’s right. Now, when you go to court, Teddy was just sort of indicating, I just want you to know one thing. In most municipal courts, you know, it’s the prosecutor who kind of runs the show and who you deal with. But that prosecutor, over the last 20 years that I’ve been an attorney, it’s become more and more and more. What I’m about to tell you. The prosecutor will only, pretty much in New Jersey, I’ve only seen one prosecutor try to stand up to it and got shot down because he had to speak to the upper echelon of Fish and Game personnel. You know, if it’s just a town cop, the prosecutor will sometimes override the town cop and say, look, you really want to push this? They’ll try to convince them to give something different or better and so that they can negotiate. Fish and Game runs the show, even though it’s a front that the prosecutor runs the show. When it comes to what they are allowed to negotiate, they will not. I haven’t seen it at all, much at all. It’s been at least 5 or 10 years since I’ve been able to do, for instance, get an ordinance instead of a fish and game violation. Evan Nappen 36:28 And there’s a reason for that. The money on a Fish and Game violation goes to Fish and Game. So, they’re there with their hand out, and they don’t want that money going anywhere else. They need the records that show convictions to keep notches, to keep promoting their budget and funding. Look what a great job we’re doing enforcing all these minuscule and often contradictory regulations. Louis Nappen 36:59 Yeah, so it’s about the notches on the belt. Teddy Nappen 37:01 For me, personally, I always just from all the stories and horror stories that I was told. I remember, Dad, you’re famous, the famous one. What was it? It’s a moose, get over it. It had to do with the Fish and Game. Evan Nappen 37:13 Yeah. After winning at trial, the Fish and Game officer was crying, literally crying. How do you live with yourself? To me, because I won. Well, I don’t know. How do you live with yourself, enforcing this kind of insanity. Page – 13 – of 18 Teddy Nappen 37:28 It’s the level of the, it’s the guy from The Untouchables. Let’s do some good. It’s that mentality of Fish and Game. It’s still, and there’s such abuse, like, Uncle, have you experienced? What’s your experience? Evan Nappen 37:43 Unfortunately, we see these. Teddy Nappen 37:44 What is your experience, Uncle Lou? Louis Nappen 37:48 First off, I just want to say I don’t even recommend hunting in New Jersey. That’s how bad it is. Because when are you not within 450 feet of a building? I mean, it could be any building. Evan Nappen 38:09 They particularly look for the ones that you can’t see. Louis Nappen 38:13 A word to the wise. I’ve had that case. Evan Nappen 38:15 Walk into that trap. Louis Nappen 38:17 I had a guy who shot for ducks, and there was a bit of a berm, so to say. And he didn’t know that over that berm was a house. He couldn’t see it. There is none. He didn’t. It was not in his line of sight. When he shot, it was fine. It was gonna go in the dirt if he missed the bird. It doesn’t matter. He was within 450 feet, as the crow flies. So, let me just. Now I just want to quickly kind of give with these. Some of these are ongoing cases. Of course, I will not reveal names or anything, but just to show you how this played out in action regarding three individuals within the last year. Louis Nappen 38:55 One person was hunting with his father, and they’re at their truck now. They’re not even still hunting. They were away from their hunting blinds or the places where they were hunting, and a State Police officer comes up and asked, were you hunting recently from this field? Yes, I was. Did you shoot? Yes, I did. That’s like, that’s questionable. Is it investigatory, or they tried to get you to self incriminate on something? It’s hard to tell the difference, isn’t it? And then she calls, I think it was a female officer, Fish and Game. They show up in more than one, and they mirandize these people. At that point, they’re not letting you go. They are telling you your Miranda rights. So, what should you do? You shut up. You don’t tell them anything. Evan Nappen 39:53 No, no no. You shut the f up. Page – 14 – of 18 Louis Nappen 39:53 Yeah, I know. Okay. You don’t. I’m trying it and you’re trying you. Because at that point, they obviously want to get you to admit to doing some things that they already sort of got you to tell a little bit to the first cop. But now these Fish and Game officers, they did what they should. I can’t blame them. They did what they should. Mirandize these people. They didn’t. Listen to everything I just read to you. You have a right to remain silent. They’re signing off on a sheet that states every one of these rights. Evan Nappen 40:20 If you are ever read Miranda, it’s like last gas for 500 miles. Don’t ignore it. Follow what it said. Yeah. Invoke immediately. There is no exception to violating Miranda. That’s it. You’re done. You only talk to your attorney after that, and you do what your attorney says. You make no statements. Louis Nappen 40:52 That’s right. Evan Nappen 40:52 I mean, come on. Louis Nappen 40:53 And if at that point they’re going to send you a citation, they’re going to send it to you because they already have your information from your hunting licenses. So, what happens after that? They proceed to show them where they were hunting, what direction they were pointing when they hunted, all the both, where both blinds were that they were in, what kind of rounds they were using, all the all of this. Teddy Nappen 41:15 This is starting to remind me of Alice’s Restaurant, when the guy litters and they take out all this stuff and equipment. Louis Nappen 41:22 Well, they did measurements and everything else, because you showed them where you stood when you shot. If you don’t show them where you stood when you shot, where you shot, and all that, how they gonna know if they weren’t there? Evan Nappen 41:38 Right! Louis Nappen 41:38 I have nothing to show you. Because, don’t forget, communication is part of that silence. It’s not just talking. If you’re walking them to a place or doing some motion or something, showing them how you held your gun in what direction, up high or low. This is all communication that you don’t have to provide. So there’s that. Page – 15 – of 18 Evan Nappen 41:59 Always abide by the Fifth Amendment. Louis Nappen 42:00 So, there’s one example. He proceeded to show them that. Okay, example number two. These are all actual cases that I’m currently involved in. Number two, a person hunting for deer. He’s up in his stand. It’s not a firearm. It’s crossbow related. Doesn’t matter, I guess. But he comes down, and the officer shows up, He hands him his licensing and everything, all in order, perfectly in order. But that Fish and Game Cop was not there to truly investigate whether or not he’s hunting. But if he could find that he wasn’t, that would be fine. He was there about a totally different kind of situation, about raccoon trapping. He started chatting with the guy. And the person chatted, thinking it’s a friendly conversation, and found out everything about it, about anything about raccoon trapping. Well, you know this and that. There were some traps around there. Have you seen him? And the guy just talked and tried to kind of obfuscate about some things, I think. But nothing. It’s understandable about like that other people are using this property. Teddy Nappen 43:13 I imagine he had like a raccoon skin hat. Evan Nappen 43:18 He didn’t have his 1920s rah, rah, football raccoon coat on either. Louis Nappen 43:28 Yes. So, long story short, they are talking to him for an hour. Evan Nappen 43:35 An hour. Oh, my G-d. Louis Nappen 43:36 And at some point he had to get home, and he said that early on. So, in other words, he was kind of indicating he didn’t want to be sitting there chatting, but he’s being friendly. The bottom line is, he gets charged, and he does, in all everything that’s been said, more or less, it’s a confession, and they used everything against him. Teddy Nappen 43:39 Quick question, do Fish and Game use body cam as well? Louis Nappen 44:00 Yes! Oh yeah. It’s all on body cam. It’s all on body cam almost always. It’s very rare that stop. This is what’s frustrating for me right now. The stop for the first one I mentioned when the State Police, who would normally wear body cam, they’re not yet providing it. I don’t think they have that for that quick, the shorter first interrogation. But all the Fish and Game officers, as they’re getting Mirandized and everything, that is all on video of them continuing and then everywhere he showed them of shooting from where, etc. So, that’s the second one regarding it had nothing to do with him having proper Page – 16 – of 18 licensing, and it was all just a way to get him to self incriminate doing an interrogation. He didn’t realize he was being interrogated. He thought it was a friendly conversation. At what point does your Miranda kick in? Is it just investigatory, or is it that you should have been told up front? Because people forget about that they have these rights not to have to speak. He should have just said, Am I free to leave? Or go back into his hunting stand? Louis Nappen 45:00 Okay, the last one here, but you can see how each person ignored their Miranda rights here, and that’s what got him cited. The last one is. Evan Nappen 45:11 That’s the GOFU! Louis Nappen 45:12 Fish and Game. Evan Nappen 45:12 Pretty simple, yeah. Louis Nappen 45:13 Yeah, right. A Conservation Officer, Fish and Game, comes right near the edge of a field. He comes up in his vehicle and approaches. This is a woman Hunter, which is kind of nice to see that happening more and more. The Conservation Officer immediately starts questioning. Immediately starts questioning. Hi, how are you? Friendly. Were you just shooting? Yes, I was. How were you standing when you shot? What direction did you shoot in? And all this. She proceeds to show him exactly what she did. I don’t know how much more detail I want to get into. Evan Nappen 45:57 No, but because of her statements, she gets charged. Louis Nappen 45:59 All she should have said is, here’s my hunting license. Here’s my license, and just handed it to him. Evan Nappen 46:06 Here’s my license. Louis Nappen 46:08 Like you do when you get pulled over. You just hand them the licenses. Or please take it off my back. Sometimes the hunting license is stuck on. You know, they’re in the plastic thing, whatever it is. Here they are. And if they start questioning you about anything. Evan Nappen 46:10 Just say, look, am I free to go? Page – 17 – of 18 Louis Nappen 46:23 Am I free to leave? I got nothing to talk about. Evan Nappen 46:27 Yeah. Say,well, I’m here to hunt, not to talk. Louis Nappen 46:31 And many of these people had even other excuses that they could have even said to make it seem more friendly. Even I’m leaving now, because my husband’s out there, and he expects me at the car. I’m leaving or anything. You don’t have to have an excuse, but often you have one. I got to go to the bathroom. Teddy Nappen 46:50 The best example to always, and I remember you always brought this up, Dad. Anytime, what was, what did Martha Stewart go to jail for? And I always say was it insider trading? No, it was lying to the police. If she did not talk, she would not have gone to jail. Evan Nappen 47:06 You cannot lie to the police. Right! Teddy Nappen 47:07 If she didn’t say anything, she would have been fine. Evan Nappen 47:10 Yep, yeah. Louis Nappen 47:11 I want to say one thing. This particular officer, in speaking of that, when he approached her after she shot, the very first thing that he said was, I saw you in my rear view, doing what you, shooting. But then he says to her, show me what you did. To get her to admit what he saw, allegedly. Evan Nappen 47:30 If he saw it, why does she need to show him? Louis Nappen 47:32 Exactly. Then you have it. Evan Nappen 47:35 Games, games, games. Teddy Nappen 47:36 I’m gonna say that’s a certain level of entrapment, like you’re telling them to do that. Page – 18 – of 18 Evan Nappen 47:41 Not necessarily entrapment. But that’s legal for cops to interrogate and to make. Maybe he didn’t see a damn thing. He could say anything. Louis Nappen 47:51 That’s right, that’s right. I think it happened on video. Evan Nappen 47:54 When they don’t have it on video, they could say, you know, we just had a witness come out who never did. I mean, it doesn’t matter. Louis Nappen 48:01 I honestly think he heard a shot, looked in his rear view and saw her shooting. But he didn’t see the shot. That’s my thought of, actually, what, what probably occurred. And that’s right. Evan Nappen 48:13 The bottom Line to all this, Lou? Individuals have to stand on their rights. Law enforcement is law enforcement. Fish and Game is law enforcement. Your rights apply there, as well as in a traffic stop and anywhere else. Stand on your rights. Lou, thanks so much for reviewing all that in detail. This is Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen and Louis Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Speaker 2 48:52 Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state. Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E288_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America's Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it's no wonder he's become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets. Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It's Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham's Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News. As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists. He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America. Email Evan Your Comments and Questions  talkback@gun.lawyer Join Evan's InnerCircleHere's your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America.  Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL.  Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits.   Email (required) *First Name *Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.var ajaxurl = "https://gun.lawyer/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php";

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