Two by Two

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 22 May 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-Reliance Retail is a behemoth that sells everything—from the recently revived Campa Cola to luxury jackets. And the more than 19,300 stores across its verticals makes it the largest retailer in the country. But Reliance Retail seems to have run the race a bit too fast, and is now plagued by its very efforts to dominate every market it enters. In episode 43 of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss how Reliance Retail's size may be turning out to be its biggest challenge with deputy editor Seetharaman G, who leads The Ken's coverage on retail.–Additional reading:Why Reliance Retail will be stock-market pundit's most perplexing company? – https://the-ken.com/story/no-ipo-talk-at-agm-yet-reliance-retail-will-be-stock-pundits-biggest-puzzle/Reliance Retail comes back to earth – https://the-ken.com/tradetricks/reliance-retail-comes-back-to-earth/The curious entry of Jio Financial Services into the Nifty 50 – https://the-ken.com/long_and_short/the-curious-entry-of-jio-financial-services-into-the-nifty-50/Additional listening:Dmart versus the challengers at the gate – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/–If you're a Premium subscriber to The Ken, you can listen to the full episode, along with all our other podcasts, exclusively on our apps now.Not a premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium channel on Apple Podcasts, which unlocks access to all our premium audio offerings at a great monthly recurring price.–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 15 May 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-The original big AI bus that came was Large Language Model, or LLMs, the foundational model bus. India missed it.Then the conversation became let others develop the foundational models, we'll just do a better job of building applications on top of it. We'll become the use case capital of the world. There are some startups from India in the space, but none of them are in the same league as their global counterparts.So in some ways, we've missed that bus, too.Today, the focus has shifted to the need to have compute, the need to set up large data centres, and the need to have our own sovereign data sets.The government of India is now providing subsidies to startups and large companies.It's taking equity. For example, Sarvam AI got a 220 crore grant from the government.But can we build massive and really expensive data centres at a scale like the United States and China?What does the future look like for India from an AI point of view?Host Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss how India has missed many technological waves, including the latest one—AI. Joining them for the episode are Srinath Mallikarjunan, CEO and chief scientist at Unmanned Dynamics, and Nitin Pai, co-founder and director of Takshashila Institution.Welcome to episode 42 of Two by Two.–Additional reading:What China's cheap AI model tells us about India's future – https://the-ken.com/the-nutgraf/what-chinas-cheap-ai-model-tells-us-about-indias-future/India's AI mission needs many heroes. But it's settled for one—Sarvam – https://the-ken.com/newsletter/make-india-competitive-again/indias-ai-mission-needs-many-heroes-its-settled-for-one-sarvam/Inside the legal drama that may exile Ultrahuman from the US – https://the-ken.com/story/a-private-investigator-a-fabricated-logo-and-ouras-death-blow-to-ultrahuman/Is AI enhancing education or replacing it? – https://www.chronicle.com/article/is-ai-enhancing-education-or-replacing-itAdditional listening:Are Trump's tariffs a crisis or an opportunity for India?  – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/no-easy-moves-is-india-facing-a-crisis-or-an-opportunity/Ultrahuman and Kukufm have broken out – ​​https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ultrahuman-and-kuku-fm-have-broken-out/Sam Altman's initial comments on India building foundational models – https://youtube.com/shorts/xHVsk7d1L-0?feature=shared–If you are an existing Premium subscriber, you already have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 08 May 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-The coffee culture in India has come far today. But has it reached the point where daily commuters grab their cup of joe from their favourite cafe on their way to work? Or do they get it delivered in minutes? Or is the cafe only a destination for meetings?The cafe ideally serves all three use cases. But the bigger reason has more to do with what we as Indians associate with cafes when we walk into a cafe. Some answer lies in the split between food and beverages in India. Food is as big a component as coffee and coffee beverages in a cafe in India. While globally, most numbers suggest the split for food is ~10%.But there are more fundamental reasons why the cafe business is hard to crack at scale. From volume of transactions happening to catching up on the ‘grab and go' coffee culture.But even with all the troubles, more players seem keen to enter the market. Why?Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan have a fun and insightful conversation about India's coffee culture and its coffee drinkers' tastes in the latest episode of Two by Two. And joining them for the discussion are Abhijeet Anand, founder and CEO, Abcoffee, and Deepak Shahdadpuri, managing director and founder of DSG Consumer Partners.Welcome to episode 41 of Two by Two.–Additional listening:Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/Airtel fights spammers. And Truecaller's business model – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/airtel-fights-spammers-and-truecallers-business-model/Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/Additional reading:Angel One got what it wished for. That's the problem. – https://the-ken.com/story/angel-one-got-what-it-wished-for-thats-the-problem/–If you are an existing Premium subscriber, you already have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 01 May 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-That's the question hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar discuss with Vikas Bardia, co-founder and CEO of Shoffr, and Arpit Agarwal, investment partner at Blume Ventures.Blusmart used to represent success, scale, and customer love—a reputation secured as an insurgent against incumbents like Uber and Ola. At its height, Blusmart had around 8,000 cabs in Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru—hardly a small number. But now, things are tumbling down.In episode 40 of Two by Two, they discuss the reasons why most of the online ride-hailing space looks the way it does because of VC money, why debt financing is preferred by players who own their own fleet, the different models at play presently and a whole lot more.But the most important question we try to answer is what happens next, and who—if anyone—can become the next Blusmart? Or fill the space they have left?Welcome to episode 40 of Two by Two.–If you are an existing Premium subscriber, you already have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.–Additional reading:Blusmart and the dogs that didn't bark – https://the-ken.com/the-nutgraf/blusmart-and-the-dogs-that-didnt-bark/Blusmart's relationship with co-founder's listed company could prove costly – https://the-ken.com/story/blusmarts-relationship-with-co-founders-listed-company-could-prove-costly/Additional listening:How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 24th April 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-Stage is an interesting, counter-intuitive, and extraordinary company.It's a company you've probably heard little about and know almost nothing about.Vinay Sighal, co-founder and CEO of Stage, describes it as a Netflix for Indian cultures. It is a company that's on the verge of something big. Stage is an OTT company that, in Singhal's words, offers premium, sensible content in three cultures. Yes, cultures, not languages—Haryanvi, Bhojpuri, and Rajasthani.At a time when OTT platforms and consumer content companies are figuring out how to make their business work, Stage is an outlier.It has 4.2 million subscribers and nearly 150 crores in revenue. Stage has also figured out a way to do this sustainably by reducing its burn by nearly 70% from last year to this year.In today's episode, Vinay tells the story of how Stage was created, how he built a company and lost it overnight, and how he then re-emerged from it by doing the exact opposite of all the things that brought him success earlier.He switched from advertising to subscriptions, from going for international markets to local markets and from depending on platforms like Facebook to direct distribution.To do this, he did not just have to build a company; he had to build entire movie industries. Stage is a story you must listen to if you want to understand how entrepreneurs and founders are building companies for Bharat in ways most of us cannot understand or even imagine.In this episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are in discussion with Vinay Singhal, CEO and co-founder of Stage.–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 17th April 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts.-Today's episode is about something you wouldn't have heard of – search funds. Initially, we thought this would be something arcane and boring, but the more we read about it, the more it started to sound like an arrangement that sounds too good to be true.Search funds invert and twist all our conventional ideas of how people start, build, scale and fund businesses in India. It's an old model that has been somewhat popular in more developed markets and is just starting to get some traction in India. For the tens of thousands of small and medium businesses in India that have achieved a level of success and want to go to the next level, the answer may just be…search funds. This episode is about a model that's full of contradictions. It's about entrepreneurs who aren't founders. It's about VCs who spend the first few years raising money and then spend the next few years actually running the business they raise money for. It's also about operators who decide first that they want to become CEOs and then search for the companies they are going to lead.And plot twist…all of these are the same person.And in today's episode, we have two wonderful guests who are here to tell us how they're doing this.Anurag Sinha is the Managing Partner at Milestone Search Capital, one of the pioneers of the Search Fund model, and his bio says, “Looking to buy a great business”.Anurag's journey as a business leader began with entrepreneurship at the age of 17, where he spent his formative years building ventures across Healthcare, Consumer Tech, and Retail.In his latest role, Anurag was the CEO of Raam Group, an automotive retail conglomerate in India. Anurag oversaw businesses generating a topline of $100 million and managing a workforce of over 800 people. With over 12 years of experience spanning entrepreneurship, rapid-scale startups, and leadership roles in traditional business models, Anurag is now embarking on a new chapter: acquiring and scaling a promising business.Anurag holds an MBA from INSEAD, where he studied across both the France and Singapore campuses. Prior to that, he earned a B.Com (Hons) from Delhi University.Rehan Netarwala is the founder and managing partner at Okintek Capital, where he's looking for an SME business to grow and scale. His bio says, “Looking for a great SME business to acquire and grow”.Prior to starting Okintek Capital, Rehan was the co-founder of Savage and Palmer, where he helped SME entrepreneurs run and scale their businesses with our wide range of solutions right from Digital Marketing to Accounting & Taxation. Rehan is a graduate of the Indian School of Business and has a B.E. from Mumbai University.In this week's episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down with Anurag Sinha and Rehan Netarwala to break down why and how search funds do what they do.Welcome to episode 38 of Two by Two.–Get you tickets here – https://the-ken.com/event/building-unique-career-lattices/–First Principles is back with a new season.Listen to the first episode with Vidit Aatrey, co-founder and CEO of Meesho – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/vidit-aatrey-on-building-a-problem-first-mindset-into-meeshos-culture/–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode of Two by Two was first published on 10th April 2025.Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken's subscriber apps. If you don't have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link.You can also subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts. -US President Donald Trump's mission to make America great again has seen him do things that most politicians, with their tall claims and promises, confidently assure but compromise on once in power. Trump, in his second term, has gone all in with his convictions.The latest announcement from the US President is that he's pausing the tariff increase he had imposed on most of America's trading partners who did not retaliate in response with their own tariff increase for the next 90 days. Most trading partners, apart from China, on whom Trump has imposed a tariff increase of another 21%, now.This pause might mean momentary relief, but it doesn't change the bigger picture much for India, whose position to negotiate isn't as advantageous as that of some of the other US trading partners.In a slightly different episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss what the picture now looks like for India and the world with Mohit Satyanand, entrepreneur, investor, and economy-watcher. Tune in for a discussion on what's been going on underneath all the noise and alarm over the past week.–Additional reading:Get your hands bloody – https://substack.com/home/post/p-160712298 (Latest edition of Mohit's newsletter)–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

You've surely heard of the term of the term enshittification? In case you haven't, it was coined by blogger and journalist Cory Doctorow. He defined it as the pattern in which online products and services decline in quality over time.This decline or decay has started to show in Indian Consumer tech products as well, resulting in an experience for customers that is much worse than what was promised. From seemingly unharmful dark patterns to unnecessary cross-selling, the spectrum lies wide sour digital experiences for a customer today.And why they're doing this is quite simple.These products first got your trust and managed to delight you by delivering on their promise. Then, they made that promise available for a price. Fair enough, if it's good, then surely the promise has a price you should be willing to pay. Now, we seem to have arrived at a point where they're asking more to deliver that same promise. They want to extract more money from a customer's wallet. What forces them to do so becomes the next question.This enshittening and many more ways in which many of the platforms we use have aged badly was the core of the discussion in this week's episode of Two by Two. Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are Aditya Suresh, head of India equity research at Macquarie, and Abhishek Madan, ex-VP of Product at Paytm*Aditya brought the market's perspective to the discussion with his sharp insights, how the experience could be different based on whether a company is public or private, and what gets talked about in both contexts. Abhishek, in his third time on the podcast, added the flavour by explaining why and how the platform decay came about.Welcome to episode 36 of Two by Two.–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey – https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–Listen to the episode trailer available on all podcast streaming platorms:  Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube–Additional reading:Enshittification is coming for absolutely everything – https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64aba5Phonepe spent millions to rival Policybazaar. Its users couldn't care less – https://the-ken.com/story/phonepe-spent-millions-to-rival-policybazaar-its-users-couldnt-care-less/Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory – https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? – https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/First, Cult.fit's group classes got everyone's attention. Now “Cult injuries” do – https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/Additional listening:Should you invest the first two years of your career in strategy consulting? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/should-you-invest-the-first-two-years-of-your-career-doing-strategy-consulting/How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more examples of enshittification, do tell us about them. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

“The future of consultants is intricately linked to the future of consulting”That's what one of the guests had to say about the future of consultants and the promise of consulting careers.Being a consultant at any of the big three consulting firms—McKinsey & Company, Bain & Company, and Boston Consulting Group(BCG)—meant one thing: The opportunity to work on cutting-edge projects with big, innovative companies. It allowed the people who worked at these companies to have career opportunities, which would allow them to be prepared for even more challenging and rewarding roles in the world of startups.The accelerated learning, prestige, community and great pay packages that these companies offered ensured the best talent lined up to work for them.The first two years of a career in consulting are gruelling, demanding and difficult and often involve “low-value work”, like making presentations, data analysis and sending requests for proposals to really annoying clients.However, people still rush and fight to do it with the expectation that the payoffs compound later. It gives them a broader view of how companies work and operate.It acts as a training ground for building startups and laterally jumping into senior executive roles at fast-growing companies or even going higher up the consulting ladder.Today, that trade-off equation looks a bit distorted for students because it's never been easier to start a company.It's also been very easy to find post-MBA roles in companies that are more strategic in nature, and ESOPs look much more real and valuable because companies are going public.So the question becomes: Will students continue to chase consulting firms as a lucrative and promising career option? And does a career in consulting hold the same promises as it used to?Joining hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar for the episode are Rahul Chaudhary, co-founder of Treebo, ex-McKinsey & Company and Pragya Batra, co-founder of Quirksmith, ex-Bain & Company.Welcome to episode 35 of Two by Two.–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey – https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–Additional listening:If B-schools were invented today, would students run placements? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/if-b-schools-were-invented-today-would-students-run-placements/AI comes to annihilate India's SaaS companies – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ai-comes-to-annihilate-indias-saas-companies/–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

You could, in many ways, picture India's tech businesses venturing into the global stage in waves. First, there were the services companies. Your Wipros and Infosys and the like. Then, startups such as Zomato, Oyo, and Ola took their shot. The third wave was headlined by SaaS companies like Zoho and Freshworks. What does the fourth wave look like? What does the future hold for companies making the jump? This week's episode of Two by Two was our attempt to answer some of those questions. Our guests for the podcast ended up adding quite a bit more. Mohit Kumar is founder and CEO of Ultrahuman, best known for its smart rings which compete with the likes of Oura and Samsung, but also offering a wide range of other devices and products for health-conscious buyers.Lal Chand Bisu is the co-founder and CEO of Kuku FM, a mobile-first premium audio platform hosting content in multiple Indian languages.Two very different companies, with one bold bet in common: they chose to take their products global. Welcome to episode 34 of Two by Two.–Book your tickets for The Ken's first subscriber event – https://the-ken.com/event/beyond-the-first-order/–Additional reading:Kuku FM chooses not to be the hero in its own storyPocket FM had 10 million listeners in India. Yet it hit pay dirt elsewhere–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Free-range eggs and chicken have been gaining popularity for a while. The practices involved in producing and raising them are considered more humane. The market for humane meat has been growing slowly but steadily. Reports suggest that a majority of the country eats eggs, chicken, or meat. Shouldn't we care about how the animals that reach our plates are raised and killed? It's not a question with easy answers.Today, consumers are becoming more aware of the conditions in which the eggs and meat they consume are produced. They are making a conscious choice to seek out spaces that treat these animals well before they become a means of our sustenance.Should meat and fish eaters be willing to pay a premium to ensure the animals that we consume – or whose products we consume – are treated as ethically and humanely as possible? How big is this market? How fast is it growing? How should we think about it? Or should we take the lazy route and laugh it off as an oxymoron?Episode 33 of Two by Two, hosted by Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, aimed to find an answer and explain how it makes sense.And they were joined by four wonderful guests for the discussion.Our first guest is Dineshkumar Shanmugam, the co-founder and CEO of Earthy Origins, a Tamil Nadu-based farm-to-table startup that grows, raises, and sells organic food products and ethically raised chickens and free-range eggs.Our second guest is Sandeep Reddy, the CEO of India Animal Fund, a nonprofit that brings together a diverse mix of leaders from the corporate and animal welfare sectors to take a strategic look at ending all forms of animal harm. They believe that doing the most good means minimising the suffering of the most vulnerable, that is, animals. Our third guest is K Vijay, the Bengaluru-based founder of another meat startup, Meatright.Our final guest is Shan Kadavil, co-founder and CEO of Freshtohome, one of the leading online sellers of meat and fish in India. We've interviewed Shan for First Principles, The Ken's leadership podcast. His clarity of thought around setting up and scaling an online meat business in India was amazing. You should listen to it if you haven't.–Additional reading:Famine, affluence and morality – https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil308/Singer2.pdfFood, a question of ethics – 5 principles of ethical eating – https://kindredmedia.org/2007/09/food-a-question-of-ethics-5-principles-of-ethical-eating/Animals and choices – https://the-ken.com/newsletter/first-principles/animals-and-choices/How many Indians eat meat? – https://www.thehindu.com/data/data-how-many-indians-eat-meat/article65299234.eceAdditional listening:Shan Kadavil of Freshtohome on selling fish, building moats, encouraging bottom-up “shots on goal”, and being honest with boards – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/shan-kadavil-fresh-to-home/Peter Singer – The ethics of what we eat – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey – https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–This episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

There's a war for succession going on. Who gets to become the new television?There are two challengers. The first challenger is Youtube.According to Neal Mohan, YouTube CEO, TV screens have officially overtaken mobile as the quote, primary device for YouTube viewing in the US.It is, as Mohan writes in his annual letter from the CEO, an indication that YouTube is the new television.It's interactive and includes things like shorts, podcasts, and live streams alongside sports, sitcoms, and talk shows that people already love.It is getting there organically by adding things like memberships, monetisation tools, partner programs, and super chats, and it's letting creators play with them to create content that takes eyeballs away from linear television.On the other hand, there are streaming companies like Netflix and Jiohotstar, who also want to become the successor for new television, and they do it by owning and producing exclusive content and IP such as live sports, Disney, Marvel, HBO, and a whole lot more.All of this came to a head a couple of days back after Jiohotstar live-streamed its Mahashivratri event. It had a lot of the same elements as Youtube live events.Viewers could switch between temple feeds, listen to mythological narratives or engage in real-time chanting and live Q&A sessions, transforming passive viewing into active participation.Jio Hotstar is redefining live streaming by making shared cultural moments more immersive.To discuss this, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar invited two wonderful guests.Our first guest is Swati Mohan, the ex-head of marketing at Netflix India. She's also an independent advisor to many consumer tech companies. She's led large business verticals and has had leadership roles in media companies such as GroupM, Nat Geo, and many others across India and APAC.And our second guest is Vanita Kohli-Khandekar. She is an India-based media specialist and a contributing editor for Business Standard, where she has written about media and the business of media for over two decades.She also writes for Singapore-based Content Asia. The Media Room, her podcast on all things media and entertainment, is hosted on The Core. She has also authored the authoritative book on India's media landscape titled The Indian Media Business.In this episode, we discuss which of these two contenders will become new television.What will YouTube do, and how will it get there? What will streaming companies do, and how will they get there?Welcome to episode 32 of Two by Two.– – –Additional reading:Jiohotstar is not contentThe 'linearisation' of streaming: How OTTs are becoming more like TVAdditional listening:Netflix and its last growth market– – –What you listened to is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

You've surely heard of the term of the term enshittification? In case you haven't, it was coined by blogger and journalist Cory Doctorow. He defined it as the pattern in which online products and services decline in quality over time.This decline or decay has started to show in Indian Consumer tech products as well, resulting in an experience for customers that is much worse than what was promised. From seemingly unharmful dark patterns to unnecessary cross-selling, the spectrum lies wide sour digital experiences for a customer today.And why they're doing this is quite simple.These products first got your trust and managed to delight you by delivering on their promise. Then, they made that promise available for a price. Fair enough, if it's good, then surely the promise has a price you should be willing to pay. Now, we seem to have arrived at a point where they're asking more to deliver that same promise. They want to extract more money from a customer's wallet. What forces them to do so becomes the next question.This enshittening and many more ways in which many of the platforms we use have aged badly was the core of the discussion in this week's episode of Two by Two. Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are Aditya Suresh, head of India equity research at Macquarie, and Abhishek Madan, ex-VP of Product at Paytm*Aditya brought the market's perspective to the discussion with his sharp insights, how the experience could be different based on whether a company is public or private, and what gets talked about in both contexts. Abhishek, in his third time on the podcast, added the flavour by explaining why and how the platform decay came about.Welcome to episode 36 of Two by Two.-Additional reading:Enshittification is coming for absolutely everything - https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64aba5Phonepe spent millions to rival Policybazaar. Its users couldn't care less - https://the-ken.com/story/phonepe-spent-millions-to-rival-policybazaar-its-users-couldnt-care-less/Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? - https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/First, Cult.fit's group classes got everyone's attention. Now “Cult injuries” do - https://the-ken.com/newsletters/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/Additional listening:Should you invest the first two years of your career in strategy consulting? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/should-you-invest-the-first-two-years-of-your-career-doing-strategy-consulting/How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/-This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more examples of enshittification, do tell us about them. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Everyone's lives would be better if we were rid of spam calls and messages, but we don't live in that reality. So most people rely on caller-ID apps or services to save themselves from the ordeal. In September last year, Bharti Airtel launched a spam fighting network free of cost to all users who have a VoLTE-enabled smartphone.Airtel says its AI-powered systems come across a call or message that seems sketchy based on call patterns, frequency, duration and other parameters to flag them as ‘suspected scam'.But like any anti-spam service, it has been showing a few cracks—all of which have consequences for both businesses and customers.Legitimate calls from businesses are flagged as suspected spam by its system, while calls from similar businesses are not. The other troubling problem is that it's a one-way system where the customer can't do anything about it. They cannot opt out of the service either.If your network operator says it's a suspected spam call when there's a number flashing on your screen, are you going to pick it up?And then there are businesses like Truecaller, which built their business using the crowdsourcing model and built a two-sided business where they made money from both individuals and businesses trying to reach these individuals. Truecaller helped legitimate businesses which were being marked as spam be validated as verified businesses for a fee.Something in all of this feels broken. What should ideally be free and reliable to save all customers from being scammed is not fully reliable or free.What's at stake? Where are the solutions?In episode 31 of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan try to find the answers with our guests for the week—Parag Kar, former vice president of government affairs at Qualcomm India and Southeast Asia; Chaitanya Chokkareddy, co-founder and CTO of Ozonetel, a cloud-based communication platform providing call-centre solutions for businesses; and The Ken reporter Rounak Kumar Gunjan.– – –Additional reading -Truecaller beat Trai to the punch with spam-call fixAirtel finds the gap between Truecaller and Trai– – –Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo– – –What you listened to is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

“The future of consultants is intricately linked to the future of consulting”That's what one of the guests had to say about the future of consultants and the promise of consulting careers.Being a consultant at any of the big three consulting firms—McKinsey & Company, Bain & Company, and Boston Consulting Group(BCG)—meant one thing: The opportunity to work on cutting-edge projects with big, innovative companies. It allowed the people who worked at these companies to have career opportunities, which would allow them to be prepared for even more challenging and rewarding roles in the world of startups.The accelerated learning, prestige, community and great pay packages that these companies offered ensured the best talent lined up to work for them.The first two years of a career in consulting are gruelling, demanding and difficult and often involve “low-value work”, like making presentations, data analysis and sending requests for proposals to really annoying clients.However, people still rush and fight to do it with the expectation that the payoffs compound later. It gives them a broader view of how companies work and operate.It acts as a training ground for building startups and laterally jumping into senior executive roles at fast-growing companies or even going higher up the consulting ladder.Today, that trade-off equation looks a bit distorted for students because it's never been easier to start a company.It's also been very easy to find post-MBA roles in companies that are more strategic in nature, and ESOPs look much more real and valuable because companies are going public.So the question becomes: Will students continue to chase consulting firms as a lucrative and promising career option? And does a career in consulting hold the same promises as it used to?Joining hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar for the episode are Rahul Chaudhary, co-founder of Treebo, ex-McKinsey & Company and Pragya Batra, co-founder of Quirksmith, ex-Bain & Company.Welcome to episode 35 of Two by Two.-Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo-Additional listening:If B-schools were invented today, would students run placements? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/if-b-schools-were-invented-today-would-students-run-placements/AI comes to annihilate India's SaaS companies - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ai-comes-to-annihilate-indias-saas-companies/-This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

The consumer need for 10-minute deliveries wasn't demanded, but it was created.Multiple startups went into an arms race to deliver products faster and faster to users who never really asked for them.This expanded into category after category, starting from groceries to FMCG products, then to apparel, electronics, PS5s, iPhones, and later food. The 10-minute monster demands to be fed and is eating category after category, forcing consumers to change long-established patterns so they can get stuff delivered to their homes at a turnaround time they never imagined possible.The next big frontier for all of these start-ups is now alcohol and liquor.Finally, we have a category where most consumers want organized, regulated, and legitimate home deliveries. They're probably even willing to pay for it.For quick commerce start-ups, too, home delivery of alcohol is a huge opportunity.High margins, high stickiness, great repeat, massive market, negligible customer acquisition costs, hundreds of millions of consumers want it.Startups with hundreds of millions in capital are desperate to offer it.So, what is stopping 10-minute alcohol delivery?In the latest episode of Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar are joined by Prasanna Natarajan, founder of Sipping Spirits and Hipbar, India's first home-delivery liquor startup, which was later acquired by Cred, and Debashish Shyam, co-founder and director of Ardent Alcobev. He's had nearly 20 years of experience in alcohol marketing and sales at organisations as diverse as United Spirits and IBTC in Myanmar.----What you listened to is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.----Listen to One Billion in 10 Minutes on The Ken app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.----Disclaimer:Alcohol consumption is injurious to health. No participants in this episode promote alcohol consumption and strongly discourage underage, binge, and careless drinking. All panelists in this show express their own personal views, which do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or promoters. Please drink responsibly.

Two founders lay down their journey so far of going global.First, there was the services wave of exports, led by Infosys and Wipro. Then, companies like Zomato, Oyo, and Ola tried to expand their operations globally. The third wave was headlined by SaaS companies like Freshworks and Zoho. What will the fourth wave of tech exports be?Our guests for this week, Mohit Kumar, founder and CEO of Ultrahuman and Lal Chand Bisu, co-founder of Kuku FM, have an answer to what it could be, and they are leading by example with their own companies at the front of this wave.Mohit shared about 95% of Ultrahuman's customers are from outside India. And their numbers speak for themselves. As for Kuku FM, till early 2024, almost 99% of their business was focused on the Indian diaspora. But they made a switch in 2024, on the back of generative AI, to cross Indian borders. And now, as it stands, the split between India and global is at 90 and 10, respectively, says Lal Chand Bisu.Both these companies are being led by second-time founders. One thing that kept coming up during the discussion was the multiple parallels across both of their companies, like their latecomer's advantage, leading the charge as ‘bear kids' in this economy, and building their business for the freedom and thrill of building a business on their choices.Over the course of the discussion, both Mohit Kumar and Lal Chand Bisu explained how their businesses have evolved over time from when they started to now and how they have scaled and reinvented themselves in this journey.Tune in and listen to episode 34 of Two by Two, hosted by Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar, as they discuss the hopes, challenges, and excitement surrounding the fourth wave of tech exports from India.-Sign up for The Ken's first subscriber event - https://theken.typeform.com/to/NUPj8HdZ-Additional reading:Kuku FM chooses not to be the hero in its own storyPocket FM had 10 million listeners in India. Yet it hit pay dirt elsewhere-This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Have you made a trip abroad to attend a live event in 2023 or 2024?Did you have the option of attending the same (or equivalent) event in India?Why did you choose not to attend the same event in India?These were the three main questions we posed to listeners of Two by Two in a recent survey to understand the biggest problems with hosting events—big or small—in India.Then we took all the people who said yes and looked at the events that they said they went outside India to attend even though options for it existed inside India. It had a lot of concerts comprising a long list of musicians. Dua Lipa in Singapore, Ed Sheeran in Malaysia and a sea of Coldplay because it's Coldplay season, Coldplay's concert in Singapore, Coldplay in Dubai, Coldplay in Barcelona, Coldplay in Thailand, Coldplay in Bangkok, Ben Böhmer who had performed in India in late December last year but people chose to attend his shows outside India instead. Then we had Indian performers whom people refused to attend in India and went abroad, Diljit in Bombay. There was a list of cricket matches in that list as well. Stand-up acts from Vir Das, which people chose to attend in the U.S. instead of attending in India. The most interesting entry we saw was half marathons. People are choosing to attend half marathons outside India instead of attending them in India.In this week's episode, we get to the reasons why this is the ultimate form of Indians paying for convenience over availability.Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down with Shreyas Srinivasan, former Chief Product Officer at Paytm* and founder of Paytm Insider, which has now been acquired by Zomato and rebranded as District, and Sudhir Syal, former CEO of Bookmyshow Indonesia and Bookmyshow Middle East, to understand where India falls short in hosting events at scale.Welcome to episode 29 of Two by Two.*Paytm founder Vijay Shekhar Sharma is an investor in The Ken.–Additional reading:The Nutgraf: Going out of India is easier than going out in India–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–What you listened to is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Free-range eggs and chicken have been gaining popularity for a while. The practices involved in producing and raising them are considered more humane. The market for humane meat has been growing slowly but steadily. Reports suggest that a majority of the country eats eggs, chicken, or meat. Shouldn't we care about how the animals that reach our plates are raised and killed? It's not a question with easy answers.Today, consumers are becoming more aware of the conditions in which the eggs and meat they consume are produced. They are making a conscious choice to seek out spaces that treat these animals well before they become a means of our sustenance.Should meat and fish eaters be willing to pay a premium to ensure the animals that we consume – or whose products we consume – are treated as ethically and humanely as possible? How big is this market? How fast is it growing? How should we think about it? Or should we take the lazy route and laugh it off as an oxymoron?Episode 33 of Two by Two, hosted by Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, aimed to find an answer and explain how it makes sense.And they were joined by four wonderful guests for the discussion.Our first guest is Dineshkumar Shanmugam, the co-founder and CEO of Earthy Origins, a Tamil Nadu-based farm-to-table startup that grows, raises, and sells organic food products, ethically raised chickens, and free-range eggs.Our second guest is Sandeep Reddy, the CEO of India Animal Fund, a nonprofit that brings together a diverse mix of leaders from the corporate and animal welfare sectors to take a strategic look at ending all forms of animal harm. They believe that doing the most good means minimising the suffering of the most vulnerable, that is, animals. Our third guest is K Vijay, the Bengaluru-based founder of another meat startup, Meatright.Our final guest is Shan Kadavil, co-founder and CEO of Freshtohome, one of the leading online sellers of meat and fish in India. We've interviewed Shan for First Principles, The Ken's leadership podcast. His clarity of thought around setting up and scaling an online meat business in India was amazing. You should listen to it if you haven't.-Additional reading:Famine, affluence and morality - https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil308/Singer2.pdfFood, a question of ethics – 5 principles of ethical eating - https://kindredmedia.org/2007/09/food-a-question-of-ethics-5-principles-of-ethical-eating/Animals and choices - https://the-ken.com/newsletter/first-principles/animals-and-choices/How many Indians eat meat? - https://www.thehindu.com/data/data-how-many-indians-eat-meat/article65299234.eceAdditional listening:Shan Kadavil of Freshtohome on selling fish, building moats, encouraging bottom-up “shots on goal”, and being honest with boards - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/shan-kadavil-fresh-to-home/Peter Singer - The ethics of what we eat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA-Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo-This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

On January 20th, the online publication The Head and Tale broke the news that two of India's largest payment aggregators and gateways, Razorpay and Cashfree, were severing ties with India's largest payment orchestrator or router, Juspay.Payment gateways are the simplest. They simply facilitate a payment transaction between a merchant's website and a bank. But because these days, we have so many ways to pay. Cards, UPI, net banking, wallets, etc. Many payment gateways also aggregate these methods and offer customers and merchants a choice.Hence, they're payment aggregators.Now most leading gateways are also aggregators. This includes Razorpay, Cashfree, PayU, Paytm*, etc.The most important layer right now, and the topic of today's discussion, is orchestration or routing.Like a conductor in an orchestra, orchestrators sit above payment gateways and payment aggregators and determine who gets to play.What that means is when a customer is trying to do a transaction on a merchant's site, the orchestrator or router assigns it to a particular payment gateway or aggregator depending on various things like where success rates are high, who's offering competitive rates, etc.That's what happens with large organizations like Flipkart, BigBasket, Swiggy, etc.For instance, you must have seen when you're trying to make a transaction on any of those sites after you enter your card details; you must have seen the Juspay modal, or briefly, website appear when you're trying to enter your OTP, or it's fetching that.That's what Juspay does.It sits above payment aggregators and gateways, and it kind of plays this conductor role, assigning transactions to where they are most likely to succeed or where they are most competitively priced for the merchant that Juspay is operating with.That's the topic of today's discussion because Razorpay and Cashfree decided to stop working with Juspay.Now that's very interesting, and it's essentially the trigger to what we'd like to think of as sort of like a much larger war which is going to break out with one set of payment aggregators on one side and the other side another set of payment aggregators, and of course, Juspay.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar for the discussion are Vimal Kumar, founder of Juspay; Anand Balaji, co-founder of Xflow and former India head for Stripe; and Abhishek Madan, who used to be vice president of Product at Paytm*.Welcome to episode 28 of Two by Two.*Paytm founder Vijay Shekhar Sharma is an investor in The Ken.–Additional reading:Razorpay and Cashfree woke up and chose violenceAdditional listening:Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–This is a free 30-minute version streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

There's a war for succession going on. Who gets to become the new television?There are two challengers. The first challenger is Youtube.According to Neal Mohan, YouTube CEO, TV screens have officially overtaken mobile as the quote, primary device for YouTube viewing in the US.It is, as Mohan writes in his annual letter from the CEO, an indication that YouTube is the new television.It's interactive and includes things like shorts, podcasts, and live streams alongside sports, sitcoms, and talk shows that people already love.It is getting there organically by adding things like memberships, monetisation tools, partner programs, and super chats, and it's letting creators play with them to create content that takes eyeballs away from linear television.On the other hand, there are streaming companies like Netflix and Jiohotstar, who also want to become the successor for new television, and they do it by owning and producing exclusive content and IP such as live sports, Disney, Marvel, HBO, and a whole lot more.All of this came to a head a couple of days back after Jiohotstar live-streamed its Mahashivratri event. It had a lot of the same elements as Youtube live events.Viewers could switch between temple feeds, listen to mythological narratives or engage in real-time chanting and live Q&A sessions, transforming passive viewing into active participation.Jio Hotstar is redefining live streaming by making shared cultural moments more immersive.To discuss this, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar invited two wonderful guests.Our first guest is Swati Mohan, the ex-head of marketing at Netflix India. She's also an independent advisor to many consumer tech companies. She's led large business verticals and has had leadership roles in media companies such as GroupM, Nat Geo, and many others across India and APAC.And our second guest is Vanita Kohli-Khandekar. She is an India-based media specialist and a contributing editor for Business Standard, where she has written about media and the business of media for over two decades.She also writes for Singapore-based Content Asia. The Media Room, her podcast on all things media and entertainment, is hosted on The Core. She has also authored the authoritative book on India's media landscape titled The Indian Media Business.In this episode, we discuss which of these two contenders will become new television.What will YouTube do, and how will it get there? What will streaming companies do, and how will they get there?Welcome to episode 32 of Two by Two.– – –Additional reading:Jiohotstar is not contentThe 'linearisation' of streaming: How OTTs are becoming more like TVAdditional listening:Netflix and its last growth market– – –Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo– – –This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

“This is the first time we are discussing what I'd describe as a 'wicked problem'” says host Rohin Dharmakumar at the beginning of this episode.What's a “wicked problem”?It's not a bad thing, it's not an evil thing.A wicked problem is a social or cultural problem that's difficult or impossible to solve because of its complex and interconnected nature. They lack clarity in both their aims and solutions and are subject to real-world constraints which hinder risk-free attempts to find a solution.This definition comes from the space of systems thinking.And the “wicked problem” at center of today's discussion is India's air pollution. More specifically, North India's air pollution problem and as we zoom down further on it, Delhi's air pollution problem.India ranks second globally as the most polluted country.Our particulate pollution increased by 67.7% from 1998 to 2021.Because of the PM2.5 pollution particles, which are the smallest actually, which we track, an average Indian's life is cut short by 5.3 years.And if you live in the north of India, the reduction is close to 12 years.Now these aren't statistics that most of you people would not have heard about.Depending on where you are in India, you think it's either a problem that you have to live with or a problem someone else has to live with.In this episode of Two by Two, we want to really discuss how to think about this problem, how to solve this problem, how to even begin to define this problem.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Alok Mittal, co-founder of Indifi; Roshan Shankar, founder and CEO of Saroja Earth; and Mohit Beotra, co-founder of Air Pollution Action Group (A-PAG)Welcome to episode 27 of Two by Two.—Help us find great women guests for Two by Two by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo—What you just listened to is the first 30 minutes of an hour-and-a-half-long discussion. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which, in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Everyone's lives would be better if we were rid of spam calls and messages, but we don't live in that reality. So most people rely on caller-ID apps or services to save themselves from the ordeal. In September last year, Bharti Airtel launched a spam fighting network free of cost to all users who have a VoLTE-enabled smartphone.Airtel says its AI-powered systems come across a call or message that seems sketchy based on call patterns, frequency, duration and other parameters to flag them as ‘suspected scam'.But like any anti-spam service, it has been showing a few cracks—all of which have consequences for both businesses and customers.Legitimate calls from businesses are flagged as suspected spam by its system, while calls from similar businesses are not. The other troubling problem is that it's a one-way system where the customer can't do anything about it. They cannot opt out of the service either.If your network operator says it's a suspected spam call when there's a number flashing on your screen, are you going to pick it up?And then there are businesses like Truecaller, which built their business using the crowdsourcing model and built a two-sided business where they made money from both individuals and businesses trying to reach these individuals. Truecaller helped legitimate businesses which were being marked as spam be validated as verified businesses for a fee.Something in all of this feels broken. What should ideally be free and reliable to save all customers from being scammed is not fully reliable or free.What's at stake? Where are the solutions?In episode 31 of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan try to find the answers with our guests for the week—Parag Kar, former vice president of government affairs at Qualcomm India and Southeast Asia; Chaitanya Chokkareddy, co-founder and CTO of Ozonetel, a cloud-based communication platform providing call-centre solutions for businesses; and The Ken reporter Rounak Kumar Gunjan.– – –Additional reading -Truecaller beat Trai to the punch with spam-call fixAirtel finds the gap between Truecaller and Trai– – –Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo– – –This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Both Zomato and Swiggy have been aggressively focusing on the 10-minute grocery delivery space for a while now. Quick commerce. But what sent both of them into a spiral was when Zepto, the joker in the quick commerce pack, started delivering snacks in 10-minutes through Zepto Cafe, a separate app. Suddenly, quick commerce wasn't enough. Quick food was up for play too.Swiggy launched Snacc soon after, and Blinkit followed suit with Bistro. Both were also separate apps.But this move to disrupt themselves to avoid getting disrupted has drawn a lot of flak from the restaurant partners listed on their platforms. Because a marketplace can only be neutral when it does not participate in it.And it is not like Zomato and Swiggy haven't tried a hand at this before. Both platforms previously ran their cloud kitchen verticals, Zomato Infrastructure Services and Swiggy Access, respectively, which they had to close down or sell.They then turned their attention to delivering food and building up efficiencies to deliver it faster. But when Zepto Cafe came in the picture in December with their pitch as a separate app, both Zomato and Swiggy jumped back and opened that chapter again. Only this time, they added that they would deliver it in 10 minutes and said they were not trying to build a private label to compete with the restaurants listed on their platforms. They made it clear both Bistro and SNACC are separate apps which don't use any of the data collected by Zomato and Swiggy to date.But what do the restaurants listed on the platform have to say about this?Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan got into what all of this means for restaurants in one of the most uninhibited, probing and also the longest episodes of Two by Two we've recorded to date.To capture the restaurateurs' perspective, we have three guests who have experience working with both of the companies.Joining the hosts for the discussion are Gaurav Saria, founder of Infinitea, India's first exclusive chain of tearooms and stores; Thomas Fenn, co-founder of Mahabelly and joint secretary at NRAI; and Ramchander Raman, former President of Cafe Coffee Day and co-founder and COO of Nucleus Kitchens.Welcome to episode 26 of Two by Two. Tune in to listen to an exciting discussion.–Additional reading:The Zomato-Swiggy cartel: Bistro and Snacc further threaten the restaurant businessZomato, Swiggy gave up on selling their own food. Then came along Zepto Cafe“There's an app for that”–Swiggy, Zepto, and Blinkit–What you just listened to is the first 30 minutes of a 2-hour-long conversation. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which, in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.This episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

The consumer need for 10-minute deliveries wasn't demanded, but it was created.Multiple startups went into an arms race to deliver products faster and faster to users who never really asked for them.This expanded into category after category, starting from groceries to FMCG products, then to apparel, electronics, PS5s, iPhones, and later food. The 10-minute monster demands to be fed and is eating category after category, forcing consumers to change long-established patterns so they can get stuff delivered to their homes at a turnaround time they never imagined possible.The next big frontier for all of these start-ups is now alcohol and liquor.Finally, we have a category where most consumers want organized, regulated, and legitimate home deliveries. They're probably even willing to pay for it.For quick commerce start-ups, too, home delivery of alcohol is a huge opportunity.High margins, high stickiness, great repeat, massive market, negligible customer acquisition costs, hundreds of millions of consumers want it.Startups with hundreds of millions in capital are desperate to offer it.So, what is stopping 10-minute alcohol delivery?In the latest episode of Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar are joined by Prasanna Natarajan, founder of Sipping Spirits and Hipbar, India's first home-delivery liquor startup, which was later acquired by Cred, and Debashish Shyam, co-founder and director of Ardent Alcobev. He's had nearly 20 years of experience in alcohol marketing and sales at organisations as diverse as United Spirits and IBTC in Myanmar.----To help us find interesting guests, you can fill out this simple survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo----This is a free 10-minute trailer streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.----Listen to One Billion in 10 Minutes on The Ken app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.----Disclaimer:Alcohol consumption is injurious to health. No participants in this episode promote alcohol consumption and strongly discourage underage, binge, and careless drinking. All panelists in this show express their own personal views, which do not necessarily reflect the views of the producers or promoters. Please drink responsibly.

Business schools are among the most coveted higher educational institutions. Students go through some of the most competitive exams and pay significant fees because they hope that at the end of their degree, they will get a great job.Yet, the onerous process of finding, soliciting and bringing dozens of companies to campuses each year falls mostly on final-year students, who are part of elected/selected placement committees.For as long as we can remember, these committees have always been accused of bias, arrogance and powerplay by other students.Yet, the fact also remains that those on the placement committees sacrifice a significant part of their education and grades in order to run a great job-matching process for their entire batch.Should they, though?In the US, for instance, most leading B-schools have their professional teams that run the entire campus hiring process instead of students. Finding quality jobs for hundreds of students each year is a full-time job.In India, too, many colleges are gradually coming around to the same POV.IIM Kozhikode has transitioned the process from students to faculty. This model aims to instil transparency and professionalism in what vice-chancellor V Ramgopal Rao calls “a crucial rite of passage marking the end of academic life.”BITS Pilani has adopted a system where HR professionals employed by the institute handle placements.IIT Bombay set up a committee under a senior computer science faculty professor Uday Khedkar, with one of its aims being “setting up a clean and transparent placement process system”. Sources at IIT-B said the panel was set up after students brought to light instances of the biases some faced and how this had hampered their careers.Our guest for the episode is Professor Varun Nagaraj, Dean and Professor of Information Management & Analytics at S P Jain Institute of Management and Research (SPJIMR), Mumbai. He holds a Ph.D. in Management: Designing Sustainable Systems from Case Western Reserve University's Weatherhead School of Management. He also holds an MBA from Boston University, an MS in Computer Engineering from North Carolina State University, and a B.Tech in Electrical Engineering from IIT, Bombay. His career spanning over three decades in digital products reflects his passion for product management, development, and innovation.Over the course of the discussion, the professor and hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss how placements have evolved since their MBA days, their misgivings about the current system, and what institutes have to get better at.Perhaps the larger question is, how should we think about matching employers and graduates? Is a compressed “placements” process the best way?Welcome to episode 25 of Two by Two.—Additional reading:Bias, lack of transparency trips job hunts in premier schoolsWhy are IIT placements failing to deliver jobs? Former IIT Director explainsShiv Shivakumar's LinkedIn post —This is an edited 30-minute version of the discussion hosted by Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar with the guest. To listen to the full episode, consider getting a Premium subscription to The Ken, which, in addition to Two by Two, will get you access to all our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and the rest of the podcasts we produce.But if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two, you can do that by getting a Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts at a great monthly price.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Have you made a trip abroad to attend a live event in 2023 or 2024?Did you have the option of attending the same (or equivalent) event in India?Why did you choose not to attend the same event in India?These were the three main questions we posed to listeners of Two by Two in a recent survey to understand the biggest problems with hosting events—big or small—in India.Then we took all the people who said yes and looked at the events that they said they went outside India to attend even though options for it existed inside India. It had a lot of concerts comprising a long list of musicians. Dua Lipa in Singapore, Ed Sheeran in Malaysia and a sea of Coldplay because it's Coldplay season, Coldplay's concert in Singapore, Coldplay in Dubai, Coldplay in Barcelona, Coldplay in Thailand, Coldplay in Bangkok, Ben Böhmer who had performed in India in late December last year but people chose to attend his shows outside India instead. Then we had Indian performers whom people refused to attend in India and went abroad, Diljit in Bombay. There was a list of cricket matches in that list as well. Stand-up acts from Vir Das, which people chose to attend in the U.S. instead of attending in India. The most interesting entry we saw was half marathons. People are choosing to attend half marathons outside India instead of attending them in India.In this week's episode, we get to the reasons why this is the ultimate form of Indians paying for convenience over availability.Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down with Shreyas Srinivasan, former Chief Product Officer at Paytm* and founder of Paytm Insider, which has now been acquired by Zomato and rebranded as District, and Sudhir Syal, former CEO of Bookmyshow Indonesia and Bookmyshow Middle East, to understand where India falls short in hosting events at scale.Welcome to episode 29 of Two by Two.*Paytm founder Vijay Shekhar Sharma is an investor in The Ken.–Additional reading:The Nutgraf: Going out of India is easier than going out in India–This is a free ‘10-minute trailer'  streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

In 2023, two-wheelers and three-wheelers in India experienced growth of around 37% and 66%. Electric four-wheelers also promised to go down the same path because in that same year, there was a significant increase in sales of electric four-wheelers, 113%.Now, of course, this is from a lower base, but the signs were clear.The conventional wisdom or the narrative has been petrol and diesel cars are going to become a relic of the past. And if you're an automaker and if you're not investing billions of dollars in developing battery technology or newer models with all of this stuff, you are seen as out of touch with reality.Essentially, electric cars were inevitable.In 2024, something changed. Demand and sales for electric cars have fallen all over the world. For the first time in almost 12 years, Tesla's sales dropped by 1.1%. And India is also no exception.If you look at 2024 numbers, in fact, until October 2024, sales of electric four-wheeler cars in India were actually declining. They had gone down if you compare year-on-year numbers all of these months. By the end of the year, it sort of increased a little bit which was helped by a sale of one specific model called MG Windsor and some price cuts.But in this episode, we're going to pose two questions: Number one, why did electric cars become less attractive? And two, what will make electric cars inevitable again and by when?Our first guest is Dr Amitabh Saran, founder and CEO of Altigreen Propulsion Labs. Saran used to work at companies like Tata Consultancy Services, Philips, NASA, and Hewlett Packard before turning to entrepreneurship.Our second guest is Awadhesh Jha, executive director of Glida India, formerly known as Fortum Charge and Drive India, which is a leading charging solution provider in India. In fact, if you live in Delhi, you will see Glida charging points all over Delhi.Jha has a long history in power. He used to be a deputy director at the Central Water Commission. Also, he was the vice president of Hindustan Powerprojects Limited, where he administered hydropower development in one of the remotest parts of the country, the Spiti district of Himachal Pradesh.Welcome to episode 24 of Two by Two.–This is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation.If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can head over to The Ken and become a Premium subscriber to catch up on everything else we discussed. Your Premium subscription will also get you access to our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and other podcasts that we produce. Or, if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two for now, you can do just that by becoming a Premium subscriber on Apple Podcasts at a really great monthly price.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with people who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

On January 20th, the online publication The Head and Tale broke the news that two of India's largest payment aggregators and gateways, Razorpay and Cashfree, were severing ties with India's largest payment orchestrator or router, Juspay.Payment gateways are the simplest. They simply facilitate a payment transaction between a merchant's website and a bank. But because these days, we have so many ways to pay. Cards, UPI, net banking, wallets, etc. Many payment gateways also aggregate these methods and offer customers and merchants a choice.Hence, they're payment aggregators.Now most leading gateways are also aggregators. This includes Razorpay, Cashfree, PayU, Paytm*, etc.The most important layer right now, and the topic of today's discussion, is orchestration or routing.Like a conductor in an orchestra, orchestrators sit above payment gateways and payment aggregators and determine who gets to play.What that means is when a customer is trying to do a transaction on a merchant's site, the orchestrator or router assigns it to a particular payment gateway or aggregator depending on various things like where success rates are high, who's offering competitive rates, etc.That's what happens with large organizations like Flipkart, BigBasket, Swiggy, etc.For instance, you must have seen when you're trying to make a transaction on any of those sites after you enter your card details; you must have seen the Juspay modal, or briefly, website appear when you're trying to enter your OTP, or it's fetching that.That's what Juspay does.It sits above payment aggregators and gateways, and it kind of plays this conductor role, assigning transactions to where they are most likely to succeed or where they are most competitively priced for the merchant that Juspay is operating with.That's the topic of today's discussion because Razorpay and Cashfree decided to stop working with Juspay.Now that's very interesting, and it's essentially the trigger to what we'd like to think of as sort of like a much larger war which is going to break out with one set of payment aggregators on one side and the other side another set of payment aggregators, and of course, Juspay.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar for the discussion are Vimal Kumar, founder of Juspay; Anand Balaji, co-founder of Xflow and former India head for Stripe; and Abhishek Madan, who used to be vice president of Product at Paytm*.Welcome to episode 28 of Two by Two.*Paytm founder Vijay Shekhar Sharma is an investor in The Ken.–Additional reading:Razorpay and Cashfree woke up and chose violenceAdditional listening:Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India–This is a free ‘10-minute trailer'  streaming on all podcast streaming platforms. If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can do so by becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken or by subscribing to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Amazon India has fallen behind in the e-commerce race to Flipkart and now to Meesho as well, in tier-2 and tier-3 markets. It is the last large player to enter the quick-commerce race in India. Everything that made Amazon largely successful in the U.S. has not fully cut it for them in India, even though they understood India is a very different market and the approach they took in the U.S. might not work well for them here early onYet, they have missed out on capitalising on a lot of opportunities because they were slow to react to changing consumer behaviour.And this losing advantage in some of their verticals makes you think, what are the other businesses where Amazon has a right to win. Is it AWS, streaming or something else? Or will they push forward to make up for the lost opportunities by pouring more money and change their fate.What does the future hold for Amazon India? And how will the company, famed for its execution, turn things around in India? Of course, there have been other regulatory pressures as well, which have halted them from realising their full potential in India and forced them to think outside the business model in which they usually function.In this episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan bring back one of our first guests, Srikanth Rajagopalan, CEO of Perfios Account Aggregation Services and a former ‘Amazonian', to discuss whether Amazon has lost the e-commerce race in India. Professor Vishal Karungulam, who teaches a breadth of subjects at the Indian School of Business, including software product management, digital innovation, and disruptive technologies, is our second guest.And they try to uncover over the hour-and-a-half-long discussion where the next big opportunity lies for Amazon India.Welcome to episode 23 of Two by Two.This is just the first 30 minutes of the conversation. There's a lot more that we got into in the discussion, including Amazon, the enterprise company, and how Prime and streaming might be moats it might want to rely on.If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can head over to The Ken and become a Premium subscriber to catch up on everything else we discussed. Your Premium subscription will also get you access to our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and other podcasts that we produce. Or, if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two for now, you can do just that by becoming a Premium subscriber on Apple Podcasts at a really great monthly price.Further reading:Amazon is not yet in quick commerce. But it's already different from the packAmazon got rid of its largest seller only to replace it with other ‘preferred sellers'Amazon's Leadership Principles (recommended by Srikanth)—This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN did the mixing and mastering for this episode.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com and tell us what you thought of the episode and rate the show on your favourite podcast streaming platform.

“This is the first time we are discussing what I'd describe as a 'wicked problem'” says host Rohin Dharmakumar at the beginning of this episode.What's a “wicked problem”?It's not a bad thing, it's not an evil thing.A wicked problem is a social or cultural problem that's difficult or impossible to solve because of its complex and interconnected nature. They lack clarity in both their aims and solutions and are subject to real-world constraints which hinder risk-free attempts to find a solution.This definition comes from the space of systems thinking.And the “wicked problem” at center of today's discussion is India's air pollution. More specifically, North India's air pollution problem and as we zoom down further on it, Delhi's air pollution problem.India ranks second globally as the most polluted country.Our particulate pollution increased by 67.7% from 1998 to 2021.Because of the PM2.5 pollution particles, which are the smallest actually, which we track, an average Indian's life is cut short by 5.3 years.And if you live in the north of India, the reduction is close to 12 years.Now these aren't statistics that most of you people would not have heard about.Depending on where you are in India, you think it's either a problem that you have to live with or a problem someone else has to live with.In this episode of Two by Two, we want to really discuss how to think about this problem, how to solve this problem, how to even begin to define this problem.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Alok Mittal, co-founder of Indifi; Roshan Shankar, founder and CEO of Saroja Earth; and Mohit Beotra, co-founder of Air Pollution Action Group (A-PAG)Welcome to episode 27 of Two by Two.—What you just listened to is a short part of a 90-minute-long conversation. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Both Zomato and Swiggy have been aggressively focusing on the 10-minute grocery delivery space for a while now. Quick commerce. But what sent both of them into a spiral was when Zepto, the joker in the quick commerce pack, started delivering snacks in 10-minutes through Zepto Cafe, a separate app. Suddenly, quick commerce wasn't enough. Quick food was up for play too.Swiggy launched Snacc soon after, and Blinkit followed suit with Bistro. Both were also separate apps.But this move to disrupt themselves to avoid getting disrupted has drawn a lot of flak from the restaurant partners listed on their platforms. Because a marketplace can only be neutral when it does not participate in it.And it is not like Zomato and Swiggy haven't tried a hand at this before. Both platforms previously ran their cloud kitchen verticals, Zomato Infrastructure Services and Swiggy Access, respectively, which they had to close down or sell.They then turned their attention to delivering food and building up efficiencies to deliver it faster. But when Zepto Cafe came in the picture in December with their pitch as a separate app, both Zomato and Swiggy jumped back and opened that chapter again. Only this time, they added that they would deliver it in 10 minutes and said they were not trying to build a private label to compete with the restaurants listed on their platforms. They made it clear both Bistro and SNACC are separate apps which don't use any of the data collected by Zomato and Swiggy to date.But what do the restaurants listed on the platform have to say about this?Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan got into what all of this means for restaurants in one of the most uninhibited, probing and also the longest episodes of Two by Two we've recorded to date.To capture the restaurateurs' perspective, we have three guests who have experience working with both of the companies.Joining the hosts for the discussion are Gaurav Saria, founder of Infinitea, India's first exclusive chain of tearooms and stores; Thomas Fenn, co-founder of Mahabelly and joint secretary at NRAI; and Ramchander Raman, former President of Cafe Coffee Day and co-founder and COO of Nucleus Kitchens.Welcome to episode 26 of Two by Two. Tune in to listen to an exciting discussion.–Additional reading:The Zomato-Swiggy cartel: Bistro and Snacc further threaten the restaurant businessZomato, Swiggy gave up on selling their own food. Then came along Zepto Cafe“There's an app for that”–Swiggy, Zepto, and Blinkit–What you just listened to is a short part of a 2-hour long conversation. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.This episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

It's time for us to retire the term “Direct-to-Consumer” or D2C. The phrase is, anyway, a bit long in the tooth, having been used since the days of the dot-com boom.D2C used to mean selling directly to end customers, rather than selling through retailers or other middlemen. In theory, selling directly to consumers would allow a company to offer both lower prices and maintain higher margins (since it didn't have to pay commissions to middlemen), having better products sustained through a faster innovation cycle and the ability to sell products through evolving brand stories instead of merely price.In reality though, few brands are even remotely D2C. For instance, 82% of Boat's sales come via Amazon and Flipkart, with only 2% selling directly to consumers. The dependence on kiranas, distributors and modern retail has merely been replaced with a dependence on Amazon, Flipkart or Quick Commerce companies.Large and “traditional” FMCG companies, which were once acquirers of D2C startups, have sobered up. Their acquisitions haven't really scaled up well, even as they've figured out how to compete with D2Cs. As a result, the acquisition premium for D2C startups has plummeted from the peak during the post-pandemic days. In some cases even a 50% discount from the peak isn't leading to deals.In terms of categories, electronics has scale, but profits have plummeted. In skincare, there is also a downward spiral of competition and price pressure. A good example is Mamaearth, which is now paying the price on the stock markets.In terms of competition, the likes of Meesho, Fire-Boltt, Boult, Noise etc., are pushing prices dramatically lower. What is a differentiating factor? It's hard to say right now. The entire category looks like a turnstile with a 2-3 year cycle.What is the way out? What should modern brands do to build lasting and sustainable brands? How should they cultivate consumer loyalty and connections? What should they even be called?Welcome to episode 22 of Two by Two.In this episode, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by Deepak Shahdadpuri, managing director and founder of DSG Consumer Partners–India and Southeast Asia's first consumer-focused venture capital fund. We also had Ajai Thandi, co-founder of Sleepy Owl Coffee, and Seetharaman G, deputy editor at The Ken and resident expert on all things retail, joining the discussion.The full episode, which we released on 19 December 2024, is exclusively available on The Ken app with a Premium subscription and on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.There is also a free Two by Two newsletter. You can sign up for it here.——Additional reading:Boat, Noise unleashed cheap smartwatches on India. Rivals hurt them with dirt-cheap onesMamaearth sold investors on its FMCG dreams. Consumers had other plansBrands once desperate for quick commerce now have a tiger by the tail——This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN did the mixing and mastering for this episode.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com and tell us what you thought of the episode.

Business schools are among the most coveted higher educational institutions. Students go through some of the most competitive exams and pay significant fees because they hope that at the end of their degree, they will get a great job.Yet, the onerous process of finding, soliciting and bringing dozens of companies to campuses each year falls mostly on final-year students, who are part of elected/selected placement committees.For as long as we can remember, these committees have always been accused of bias, arrogance and powerplay by other students.Yet, the fact also remains that those on the placement committees sacrifice a significant part of their education and grades in order to run a great job-matching process for their entire batch.Should they, though?In the US, for instance, most leading B-schools have their professional teams that run the entire campus hiring process instead of students. Finding quality jobs for hundreds of students each year is a full-time job.In India, too, many colleges are gradually coming around to the same POV.IIM Kozhikode has transitioned the process from students to faculty. This model aims to instil transparency and professionalism in what vice-chancellor V Ramgopal Rao calls “a crucial rite of passage marking the end of academic life.”BITS Pilani has adopted a system where HR professionals employed by the institute handle placements.IIT Bombay set up a committee under a senior computer science faculty professor Uday Khedkar, with one of its aims being “setting up a clean and transparent placement process system”. Sources at IIT-B said the panel was set up after students brought to light instances of the biases some faced and how this had hampered their careers.Our guest for the episode is Professor Varun Nagaraj, Dean and Professor of Information Management & Analytics at S P Jain Institute of Management and Research (SPJIMR), Mumbai. He holds a Ph.D. in Management: Designing Sustainable Systems from Case Western Reserve University's Weatherhead School of Management. He also holds an MBA from Boston University, an MS in Computer Engineering from North Carolina State University, and a B.Tech in Electrical Engineering from IIT, Bombay. His career spanning over three decades in digital products reflects his passion for product management, development, and innovation.Over the course of the discussion, the professor and hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss how placements have evolved since their MBA days, their misgivings about the current system, and what institutes have to get better at.Perhaps the larger question is, how should we think about matching employers and graduates? Is a compressed “placements” process the best way?Welcome to episode 25 of Two by Two.—Additional reading:Bias, lack of transparency trips job hunts in premier schoolsWhy are IIT placements failing to deliver jobs? Former IIT Director explainsShiv Shivakumar's LinkedIn post —This is a shorter '10-minute trailer' cut from the hour-long discussion hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar had with the guests. If you would like to listen to the full episode, you can do that by getting a Premium subscription to The Ken, which, in addition to Two by Two, will get you access to all our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and the rest of the podcasts we produce.But if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two, you can do that by getting a Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts at a great monthly price.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Artificial intelligence will affect all facets of modern-day business in some way or another. But it will most definitely go a few layers deeper with the type of companies whose job is to be a record of business' today – SaaS companies.SaaS as a business model is investment-heavy in the beginning. It's risky to build, it takes time to build, and it takes skill to build. But if successful, it is a cash cow. Think of the biggest SaaS companies – Salesforce, Microsoft and Adobe. They spent years building and iterating on software products. And today, all of these products they poured money into make them billions of dollars.But there's a perfect storm that has been turning the tides, and the incumbents have seen the signs and have jumped at it to secure their advantage and not lose out to upstarts.The one thing about SaaS products is that they have to be constantly sold to their customers. But with AI, the entire loop becomes a solution that makes the customer's life easier. SaaS products integrated with AI will be bought because they'll solve the use case of its customers specifically. Companies which usually resort to different pricing strategies for small additional features will have to reconsider and be aligned to deliver outcomes for their customer, not a feature list which is based on purchasing licences to gain access.And in all of this, what happens to the Indian SaaS companies as the AI wave ushers in?In episode 21 of Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar sat down with guests Sumanth Raghavendra, CEO and co-founder of Presentations.AI and one of the co-founders of The Ken, and Sidu Ponnappa, CEO and co-founder of Realfast and former managing director of Gojek India.This is a '30-minute version' of the full conversation we had published on 12 December 2024. Full episodes are available to Premium subscribers on The Ken app and Apple Podcasts with a separate monthly subscription.A Premium subscription to The Ken will get you access to our long-form stories, premium newsletters, podcasts, and visual stories in addition to Two by Two.If you'd just like access to Two by Two, you can do that too by getting a Premium subscription to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts.Tune in to the latest Two by Two podcast to listen to an engrossing discussion on how AI will shake up SaaS models across the world and what's in store for India's SaaS companies.——Additional reading:The AI apocalypse is coming: Are SaaS companies ready?BarbAIrians at the Gate: The Financial Opportunity of AIThe End of the SaaS Era: Rethinking software's role in business——This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode was done by Rajiv CN.Write to us with what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

In 2023, two-wheelers and three-wheelers in India experienced growth of around 37% and 66%. Electric four-wheelers also promised to go down the same path because in that same year, there was a significant increase in sales of electric four-wheelers, 113%.Now, of course, this is from a lower base, but the signs were clear.The conventional wisdom or the narrative has been petrol and diesel cars are going to become a relic of the past. And if you're an automaker and if you're not investing billions of dollars in developing battery technology or newer models with all of this stuff, you are seen as out of touch with reality.Essentially, electric cars were inevitable.In 2024, something changed. Demand and sales for electric cars have fallen all over the world. For the first time in almost 12 years, Tesla's sales dropped by 1.1%. And India is also no exception.If you look at 2024 numbers, in fact, until October 2024, sales of electric four-wheeler cars in India were actually declining. They had gone down if you compare year-on-year numbers all of these months. By the end of the year, it sort of increased a little bit which was helped by a sale of one specific model called MG Windsor and some price cuts.But in this episode, we're going to pose two questions: Number one, why did electric cars become less attractive? And two, what will make electric cars inevitable again and by when?Our first guest is Dr Amitabh Saran, founder and CEO of Altigreen Propulsion Labs. Saran used to work at companies like Tata Consultancy Services, Philips, NASA, and Hewlett Packard before turning to entrepreneurship.Our second guest is Awadhesh Jha, executive director of Glida India, formerly known as Fortum Charge and Drive India, which is a leading charging solution provider in India. In fact, if you live in Delhi, you will see Glida charging points all over Delhi.Jha has a long history in power. He used to be a deputy director at the Central Water Commission. Also, he was the vice president of Hindustan Powerprojects Limited, where he administered hydropower development in one of the remotest parts of the country, the Spiti district of Himachal Pradesh.Welcome to episode 24 of Two by Two.–Take the survey here:Two by Two: Events in India vs abroad - https://theken.typeform.com/to/pchJxlaj–This is a shorter '10-minute trailer' cut from the hour-long discussion hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar had with the guests. If you would like to listen to the full episode, you can do that by getting a Premium subscription to The Ken, which, in addition to Two by Two, will get you access to all our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and the rest of the podcasts we produce.But if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two, you can do that by getting a Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts at a great monthly price.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with people who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Fintech lending was supposed to be the bridge that would enable entrepreneurs, small businesses and even individuals across the country to get access to much-needed credit to build businesses. For millions of small and medium businesses, and even individuals seeking a personal loan, who'd otherwise not qualify for them (usually unsecured ones) from banks, these new-age financial institutions were the great hope and sources of credit.Then in October this year, the RBI, like it usually seems to do these days, suddenly swept in and took action. It halted the loan disbursement activities of four NBFCs: Asirvad Micro Finance Limited, Arohan Financial Services Limited, DMI Finance Private Limited, and Navi Finserv Limited.  In fact, between the time we recorded this episode to when we released it, the RBI had lifted restrictions from one of these companies - Navi Finserv. But why did the RBI do this?Here are some hints as to why. Here are two quotes from the RBI about why they did this:“Deviations were also observed in respect of Income Recognition & Asset Classification norms, resulting in evergreening of loans, conduct of gold loan portfolio, mandated disclosure requirements on interest rates and fees, outsourcing of core financial services, etc.”And here's the most interesting one: “...unfair and usurious practices continued to be seen during the course of onsite examinations as well as from the data collected and analysed offsite”That's what the RBI said.But what did it not say?Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Ateesh Tankha and Mithun Sundar. Ateesh Tankha is the founder of Alsowise Content Solutions and a keen observer and critic of the financial services space, and Mithun Sundar is the chief Partner Officer at Microsoft India and a former CEO of Lendingkart.Throughout our conversation, both Mithun and Ateesh took the time to explain how digital lending works, why private banks are hesitant to enter the ring and play the game themselves, what's up with the sky-high interest rates charged on these loans, and, of course, why credit is so important for our country's growth and where we're falling short.Welcome to episode 20 of Two by Two.Additional reading:RBI had better explain why Navi and DMI Finance are locked out of the loan marketFor fintechs, RBI is the boy who cries wolf---------This is a shorter '30-minute' episode. If you want to listen and get access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can also sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode is done by Rajiv CN. Write to us about what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Amazon India has fallen behind in the e-commerce race to Flipkart and now to Meesho as well, in tier-2 and tier-3 markets. It is the last large player to enter the quick-commerce race in India. Everything that made Amazon largely successful in the U.S. has not fully cut it for them in India, even though they understood India is a very different market and the approach they took in the U.S. might not work well for them here early onYet, they have missed out on capitalising on a lot of opportunities because they were slow to react to changing consumer behaviour.And this losing advantage in some of their verticals makes you think, what are the other businesses where Amazon has a right to win. Is it AWS, streaming or something else? Or will they push forward to make up for the lost opportunities by pouring more money and change their fate.What does the future hold for Amazon India? And how will the company, famed for its execution, turn things around in India? Of course, there have been other regulatory pressures as well, which have halted them from realising their full potential in India and forced them to think outside the business model in which they usually function.In this episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan bring back one of our first guests, Srikanth Rajagopalan, CEO of Perfios Account Aggregation Services and a former ‘Amazonian', to discuss whether Amazon has lost the e-commerce race in India. Professor Vishal Karungulam, who teaches a breadth of subjects at the Indian School of Business, including software product management, digital innovation, and disruptive technologies, is our second guest.And they try to uncover over the hour-and-a-half-long discussion where the next big opportunity lies for Amazon India.Welcome to episode 23 of Two by Two.This is just 10 minutes from the conversation. But there's a lot more that we got into in the discussion, including Amazon, the enterprise company, and how Prime and streaming might be moats it might want to rely on.If you'd like to listen to the full episode, you can head over to The Ken and become a Premium subscriber to catch up on everything else we discussed. Your Premium subscription will also get you access to our long-form stories, newsletters, visual stories and other podcasts that we produce. Or, if you just want to sample full episodes of Two by Two for now, you can do just that by becoming a Premium subscriber on Apple Podcasts at a really great monthly price.Further reading:Amazon is not yet in quick commerce. But it's already different from the packAmazon got rid of its largest seller only to replace it with other ‘preferred sellers'Amazon's Leadership Principles (recommended by Srikanth)—This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN did the mixing and mastering for this episode.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com and tell us what you thought of the episode and rate the show on your favourite podcast streaming platform.

Today's episode of Two by Two is about how the marketing function has been eating itself from the inside.Historically, in companies, marketing has always been about the long term, while a function like sales was about the near term. Marketing owned the customer—what they wanted, their dreams, their fears, and their vanities. It was supposed to tell stories of customers back to the organisation and, in return, tell stories of the company back to customers.Today, in company after company, the marketing function has been getting sliced away, cut into parts and becoming something else altogether.Marketing is eating itself from the inside. To discuss what changed, we had two wonderful guests: one who has been teaching marketing for decades and one who has been practising it for decades. Our first guest is Professor YLR Moorthi, who teaches marketing, brand management, and marketing strategy at IIM Bangalore. These days, Professor Moorthi's work is focused on the impact of branding in different domains like IT and B2B marketing.Our second guest is Deepali Naair, who is currently the group CMO of CK Birla Group. She's had a long career in marketing across varied functions as CMO for India and South Asia at IBM, and prior to that, she was CMO at IIFL and Mahindra Holidays.In this episode, the hosts ask two simple questions: Why is marketing dying, and how can we bring it back?Welcome to Two by Two.We published the full, subscriber-version of this on 28th November. It ran an hour and ten minutes. Today, we're carrying a tightly edited 30-minute version of the same episode. We've tried to ensure that you get all the key parts of the full conversation in a tighter format.If you'd like to listen to the full version, including all the meandering side conversations, banter and background, I'd urge you to become a subscriber. You can subscribe to just Two by Two on Apple Podcasts at a really great monthly price, or subscribe to The Ken's Premium plan to get Two by Two bundled with the rest of the original feature stories, newsletters, infographics and podcasts we are known for.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.

Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two.We've released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July. We've covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos. Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru's bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS. We've had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests. Finding guests who don't hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days.We'd started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we'd spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We'd identify the cast of players and their motivations. We'd bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We'd try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to?By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited.We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain'. In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I'm excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours. We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain'. And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday.To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken's Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories.If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription.Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here. Listen to all Two by Two episodes here:1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts'? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...

This episode was first released on November 21, 2024, for The Ken's Premium subscribers. We've unlocked it for our Basic and Free subscribers for a limited time. Listen to it on your favourite podcast streaming platforms now.Dmart, the retail group in India, is absolutely number one on vision, execution, and consistency. Dmart opened its first supermarket in Mumbai's Powai suburb in 2002. Like Walmart in the US, it adopted a deep discounting strategy, offering its customers low prices every day. Today, it has 381 stores. In spite of offering its customers the deepest discounts, Dmart's net profit numbers beat the best among its global peers.Yet analysts and investors have been becoming increasingly bearish of Dmart's future strategy. They argue that what got it from 2002 to 2024 might not necessarily take it to, say, 2034.One big reason is quick commerce. Armies of underpaid contract delivery workers rushing from dark stores managed by notionally independent owners on behalf of younger companies like Zomato, Swiggy, Zepto, Big Basket, and even Flipkart are challenging the conventional wisdom on retail.Forcing Dmart to pause and blink.What should it do? Stick to what it knows and does best? Or learn new digital and delivery tricks in its middle age? With only an estimated 5% of the $500 billion urban market for food and groceries currently penetrated by organised and modern retail, the way Dmart goes has profound implications for India.To discuss this, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan invited Govind Shrikhande, former managing director of Shoppers Stop overseeing all its formats, including Shoppers Stop, Hypercity, Crossword, Homestop, Beauty Formats – MAC, Estee Lauder, Air Port & Duty Free Retail etc. Govind has spent over 40 years in the retail sector, having been part of the launches of Denim and Arrow, the relaunch of Vivaldi and the turnaround of Shoppers Stop. He is currently an Independent Director on the Board of a few Companies and a mentor to a few start-ups.Our other guest is Seetharaman G. Seetha is deputy editor at The Ken and also leads The Ken's coverage of retail. He's written quite a few stories on Dmart over the years as well.Welcome to episode number 18 of Two by Two!------Two by Two episodes referenced in this episode:Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist?Swiggy needs to reclaim its past gloryStories and newsletters referenced in this episode:Dmart and the supersizing imperativeZudio wanted Dmart's apparel shoppers. Now Dmart is hurtingDmart changes its mind on store size. AgainDmart is not used to being in a funk for so longWhat if the quick-commerce warehouse was a supermarket?Dmart and investors rekindle their loveDmart's e-commerce bet has gone from counterintuitive to obsolete------This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.

It's time for us to retire the term “Direct-to-Consumer” or D2C. The phrase is, anyway, a bit long in the tooth, having been used since the days of the dot-com boom.D2C used to mean selling directly to end customers, rather than selling through retailers or other middlemen. In theory, selling directly to consumers would allow a company to offer both lower prices and maintain higher margins (since it didn't have to pay commissions to middlemen), having better products sustained through a faster innovation cycle and the ability to sell products through evolving brand stories instead of merely price.In reality though, few brands are even remotely D2C. For instance, 82% of Boat's sales come via Amazon and Flipkart, with only 2% selling directly to consumers. The dependence on kiranas, distributors and modern retail has merely been replaced with a dependence on Amazon, Flipkart or Quick Commerce companies.Large and “traditional” FMCG companies, which were once acquirers of D2C startups, have sobered up. Their acquisitions haven't really scaled up well, even as they've figured out how to compete with D2Cs. As a result, the acquisition premium for D2C startups has plummeted from the peak during the post-pandemic days. In some cases even a 50% discount from the peak isn't leading to deals.In terms of categories, electronics has scale, but profits have plummeted. In skincare, there is also a downward spiral of competition and price pressure. A good example is Mamaearth, which is now paying the price on the stock markets.In terms of competition, the likes of Meesho, Fire-Boltt, Boult, Noise etc., are pushing prices dramatically lower. What is a differentiating factor? It's hard to say right now. The entire category looks like a turnstile with a 2-3 year cycle.What is the way out? What should modern brands do to build lasting and sustainable brands? How should they cultivate consumer loyalty and connections? What should they even be called?Welcome to episode 22 of Two by Two.In this episode, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by Deepak Shahdadpuri, managing director and founder of DSG Consumer Partners–India and Southeast Asia's first consumer-focused venture capital fund. We also had Ajai Thandi, co-founder of Sleepy Owl Coffee and Seetharaman G, deputy editor at The Ken and resident expert on all things retail joining in for the discussion.This is a short excerpt from a more than hour-long episode.The full episode is exclusively available on The Ken app with a Premium subscription and on Apple Podcasts via a separate standalone subscription.There is also a free Two by Two newsletter. You can sign up for it here.------Additional reading:Boat, Noise unleashed cheap smartwatches on India. Rivals hurt them with dirt-cheap onesMamaearth sold investors on its FMCG dreams. Consumers had other plans------If you've been a regular listener of Two by Two, consider following the show wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating too. You can also write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN did the mixing and mastering for this episode.We'll be back next Thursday with a new episode. See you then.

This episode was first released on November 14, 2024, for The Ken's Premium subscribers. We've unlocked it for our Basic and Free subscribers for a limited time. Listen to it on your favourite podcast streaming platforms now.For the last 24 months, the default way in which startups were exposed to venture capital and its effects has been, in many ways, paused. There's a slowdown. Venture capital funding for the first nine months of this year is down 7% over a similar period last year per Tracxn.There have been news stories about layoffs, company shutdowns, and downrounds at various companies from a time when unicorns were being born every three months or so.Capital is abundant. A lot of dry it remains uninvested everywhere, but it's just not getting invested at the same rate.Building a company and scaling a company is getting cheaper because of AI and LLMs, which can generate code, which can generate images or just about anything that you want.And the biggest change—there's a focus on being profitable.If you've been a regular listener of Two by Two, you'd know that VCs have always managed to sneak into most, if not all, discussions on the podcast. Maybe not in the way they'd like to be represented in general, but they have been part of the conversation in some way, shape, or form.So when hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sat down for this week's episode, they got two founders-turned-VCs to join in and say their piece on the role VCs play in the world of startups. And what they need to be doing right. Manav Garg is the founder of Eka Software and co-founder of the operator-led Together Fund (Manav has previously appeared as a guest on the First Principles podcast as well), while Rajiv Srivatsa is the co-founder of Urban Ladder, and now a founding partner at Antler India.Welcome to episode 17 of Two by Two.This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.

Artificial intelligence will affect all facets of modern-day business in some way or another. But it will most definitely go a few layers deeper with the type of companies whose job is to be a record of business' today – SaaS companies.SaaS as a business model is investment-heavy in the beginning. It's risky to build, it takes time to build, and it takes skill to build. But if successful, it is a cash cow. Think of the biggest SaaS companies – Salesforce, Microsoft and Adobe. They spent years building and iterating on software products. And today, all of these products they poured money into make them billions of dollars.But there's a perfect storm that has been turning the tides, and the incumbents have seen the signs and have jumped at it to secure their advantage and not lose out to upstarts.The one thing about SaaS products is that they have to be constantly sold to their customers. But with AI, the entire loop becomes a solution that makes the customer's life easier. SaaS products integrated with AI will be bought because they'll solve the use case of its customers specifically. Companies which usually resort to different pricing strategies for small additional features will have to reconsider and be aligned to deliver outcomes for their customer, not a feature list which is based on purchasing licences to gain access.And in all of this, what happens to the Indian SaaS companies as the AI wave ushers in?In episode 21 of Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar sat down with guests Sumanth Raghavendra, CEO and co-founder of Presentations.AI and one of the co-founders of The Ken, and Sidu Ponnappa, CEO and co-founder of Realfast and former managing director of Gojek India.This is a short ‘highlights only' version of the hour-and-a-half-long discussion.A Premium subscription to The Ken will give you access to our long-form stories, premium newsletters, podcasts, and visual stories in addition to Two by Two.If you'd just like access to Two by Two, you can do that too by getting a Premium subscription to Two by Two on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!Tune in to the latest Two by Two podcast to listen to an engrossing discussion on how AI will shake up SaaS models across the world and what's in store for India's SaaS companies.Additional reading:The AI apocalypse is coming: Are SaaS companies ready?BarbAIrians at the Gate: The Financial Opportunity of AIThe End of the SaaS Era: Rethinking software's role in business------Listen to the Two by Two 'unlocked' episode – What does Ola Electric's future hold?Link to the 'unlocked' episode:Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube------This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode was done by Rajiv CN.Write to us with what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

This episode was first released on November 7, 2024, for The Ken's premium subscribers. We've unlocked it for our Basic and Free subscribers for a limited time. Listen to it on your favourite podcast streaming platforms before it goes behind a paywall.Ola Electric's woes just don't seem to be stopping.From angry customers to its mercurial CEO getting into online spats as pressure mounts, many of its problems stretch seemingly beyond its control today for it to make a quick turnaround and change the narrative. And this is hurting its valuation significantly, both in the private and public markets. Just this week, Ola Electric's price fell below its listing priceOla Electric can and should take credit for making EV two-wheelers common on Indian roads. It achieved this through rampant marketing, getting the word out for its product, and eventually delivering its products to eager customers as well. These did yield results in the short term as well. At its peak, Ola Electric's vertically integrated ecosystem was a big pull, which, along with its marketing efforts, allowed it to gain nearly 53% market share in the EV two-wheeler segment.But the strategy of moving fast and breaking things to press an early mover advantage that startups usually apply has now started to backfire, as angry customers take to social media to express their frustration with the longer wait times to get their vehicles serviced and working again.These kinds of troubles tend to happen with startups. But when the situation is such that you can't just fix things as you would do in an app, and you are under the scrutiny of the public markets. The need to deliver becomes absolutely detrimental.In this week's episode, host Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan try to understand Ola's recent history, how it fared after listing on the Indian bourses, the troubles it has faced, and what the future holds.Joining them for the episode are Jinesh Gandhi, Research Director at Ambit*, with over 20 years of experience tracking multiple sectors, and Narayan Sundararaman, an accomplished leader with over 28 years of experience in marketing strategy. Narayan has worked at Cadbury, Star TV, and was the ex-CMO at Bajaj Auto.Reference Stories:How Ola Electric blew its leadOla Electric wants to take on Hero's Splendor. But e-bikes are not e-scootersThe real reason behind Ola Electric slashing its IPO valuation in a booming stock marketOther Two by Two episodes:Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader?*Disclaimer: The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the analyst and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Ambit Capital Private Ltd. The analyst does not hold any financial interest in the securities discussed in the podcast, nor do their relatives. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as financial advice. It is essential to conduct your own research before making any investment decisions.This episode was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode is done by Rajiv CN. Write to us about what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Fintech lending was supposed to be the bridge that would enable entrepreneurs, small businesses and even individuals across the country to get access to much-needed credit to build businesses. For millions of small and medium businesses, and even individuals seeking a personal loan, who'd otherwise not qualify for them (usually unsecured ones) from banks, these new-age financial institutions were the great hope and sources of credit.Then in October this year, the RBI, like it usually seems to do these days, suddenly swept in and took action. It halted the loan disbursement activities of four NBFCs: Asirvad Micro Finance Limited, Arohan Financial Services Limited, DMI Finance Private Limited, and Navi Finserv Limited.  In fact, between the time we recorded this episode to when we released it, the RBI had lifted restrictions from one of these companies - Navi Finserv. But why did the RBI do this?Here are some hints as to why. Here are two quotes from the RBI about why they did this:“Deviations were also observed in respect of Income Recognition & Asset Classification norms, resulting in evergreening of loans, conduct of gold loan portfolio, mandated disclosure requirements on interest rates and fees, outsourcing of core financial services, etc.”And here's the most interesting one: “...unfair and usurious practices continued to be seen during the course of onsite examinations as well as from the data collected and analysed offsite”That's what the RBI said.But what did it not say?Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Ateesh Tankha and Mithun Sundar. Ateesh Tankha is the founder of Alsowise Content Solutions and a keen observer and critic of the financial services space, and Mithun Sundar is the chief Partner Officer at Microsoft India and a former CEO of Lendingkart.Throughout our conversation, both Mithun and Ateesh took the time to explain how digital lending works, why private banks are hesitant to enter the ring and play the game themselves, what's up with the sky-high interest rates charged on these loans, and, of course, why credit is so important for our country's growth and where we're falling short.Welcome to episode 20 of Two by Two.Additional reading:RBI had better explain why Navi and DMI Finance are locked out of the loan marketFor fintechs, RBI is the boy who cries wolf---------This is a shorter 'highlights only' episode. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode is done by Rajiv CN. Write to us about what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

We've unlocked this episode for our Basic and Free subscribers for a limited time. Listen to it on your favourite streaming platform for a limited time.The government has played a pivotal role in establishing and promoting Digital Public Goods(DPG) and Digital Public Infrastructure(DPI) in the past decade and a half, and there have been few which have been integral in our daily lives in more ways than one.The reason why these solutions exist is plain and simple: There emerged companies which disrupted the landscape of finance, commerce, mobility and a whole lot of other aspects of our lives, but as they gained prominence they also started to play by their own rules.The regulator was not able to act fast enough in most cases to keep things in check. So the government intervened and helped establish and promote solutions which would keep things in check and protect the interests of all the parties involved.Some solutions literally changed the way our day to day lives are, and created businesses which are built on top of these solutions. Think UPI, ONDC or Bharat Connect(formerly known as Bharat Bill Payment System).In addition to creating and shaping these systems or frameworks or protocols, these government-backed players or GBPs, as we referred to them in this episode, also became a competitor on what they had helped build, which begs the question: what kind of system does this shape up to be?In episode 15 of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down with Anupam Manur, Professor of Economics at The Takshashila Institution, to break down the interventionist solutions championed by the government. From UPI and ONDC to the Unified Lending InterfaceEpisodes referenced:Google Pay: Big. Successful. VulnerableStories referenced:You need to download Digiyatra again. But it's less about a tech upgrade and more about a scamRBI is competing with its regulated entities — and killing competitionThis episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts and tell us what you think of the show.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com, and tell us what you thought of the episode.

Today's episode of Two by Two is about how the marketing function has been eating itself from the inside.Historically, in companies, marketing has always been about the long term, while a function like sales was about the near term. Marketing owned the customer—what they wanted, their dreams, their fears, and their vanities. It was supposed to tell stories of customers back to the organisation and, in return, tell stories of the company back to customers.Today, in company after company, the marketing function has been getting sliced away, cut into parts and becoming something else altogether.Marketing is eating itself from the inside. To discuss what changed, we had two wonderful guests: one who has been teaching marketing for decades and one who has been practising it for decades. Our first guest is Professor YLR Moorthi, who teaches marketing, brand management, and marketing strategy at IIM Bangalore. These days, Professor Moorthi's work is focused on the impact of branding in different domains like IT and B2B marketing.Our second guest is Deepali Naair, who is currently the group CMO of CK Birla Group. She's had a long career in marketing across varied functions as CMO for India and South Asia at IBM, and prior to that, she was CMO at IIFL and Mahindra Holidays.In this episode, the hosts ask two simple questions: Why is marketing dying, and how can we bring it back?Welcome to Two by Two.What you just listened to is a short part from a more than hour-long conversation. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.

Dmart, the retail group in India, is absolutely number one on vision, execution, and consistency. Dmart opened its first supermarket in Mumbai's Powai suburb in 2002. Like Walmart in the US, it adopted a deep discounting strategy, offering its customers low prices every day. Today, it has 381 stores. In spite of offering its customers the deepest discounts, Dmart's net profit numbers beat the best among its global peers.Yet analysts and investors have been becoming increasingly bearish of Dmart's future strategy. They argue that what got it from 2002 to 2024 might not necessarily take it to, say, 2034.One big reason is quick commerce. Armies of underpaid contract delivery workers rushing from dark stores managed by notionally independent owners on behalf of younger companies like Zomato, Swiggy, Zepto, Big Basket, and even Flipkart are challenging the conventional wisdom on retail.Forcing Dmart to pause and blink.What should it do? Stick to what it knows and does best? Or learn new digital and delivery tricks in its middle age? With only an estimated 5% of the $500 billion urban market for food and groceries currently penetrated by organised and modern retail, the way Dmart goes has profound implications for India.To discuss this, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan invited Govind Shrikhande, former managing director of Shoppers Stop overseeing all its formats, including Shoppers Stop, Hypercity, Crossword, Homestop, Beauty Formats - MAC, Estee Lauder, Air Port & Duty Free Retail etc. Govind has spent over 40 years in the retail sector, having been part of the launches of Denim and Arrow, the relaunch of Vivaldi and the turnaround of Shoppers Stop. He is currently an Independent Director on the Board of a few Companies and a mentor to a few start-ups.Our other guest is Seetharaman G. Seetha is deputy editor at The Ken and also leads The Ken's coverage of retail. He's written quite a few stories on Dmart over the years as well.Welcome to episode number 18 of Two by Two!Two by Two episodes referenced in this episode:Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist?Swiggy needs to reclaim its past gloryStories and newsletters referenced in this episode:Dmart and the supersizing imperativeZudio wanted Dmart's apparel shoppers. Now Dmart is hurtingDmart changes its mind on store size. AgainDmart is not used to being in a funk for so longWhat if the quick-commerce warehouse was a supermarket?Dmart and investors rekindle their loveDmart's e-commerce bet has gone from counterintuitive to obsoleteThis is a shorter 'highlights only' episode. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.

We've unlocked this episode for our Basic and Free subscribers for a limited time. Listen to it on your favourite streaming platform for a limited time.Ola and Uber are in a “late-stage duopoly”.After spending billions and billions of dollars, they have finally secured pole positions in ride-sharing in India.Both of these companies together control 70% of the market and they have created network effects that make it much harder for anyone to enter and compete with them.However, this particular situation is facing some new challenges and just like how Uber and Ola conquered city after city using a disruptive model and technology, the same thing threatens to happen to them.Ola and Uber are facing structural disruptions from multiple fronts in India.In today's episode, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar try to answer how the disruptors are getting disrupted by upstarts who are coming in with both business model innovation and newer fleets which offer a significantly better experience, which was the original promise of Ola and Uber as well.So what is the next stage of disruption in ride-hailing look like in India? Is it EV fleets? Is it democratized tech-enabler platforms like ONDC which enables platforms like Nammayatri? Are we looking at the return of local taxi operators? And most importantly, what should Ola and Uber do to defend their position as new incentive models are introduced for both drivers and passengers?Welcome to episode 14 of Two by Two.Joining the hosts for the discussion are Nilesh Sangoi, CIO of Fincare Small Finance Bank, previously CEO of Meru Cabs; Pradeep Puranam, Head of Revenue and Operations at Yulu, ex-Udaan and -Uber; and returning guest Professor Srinivasan R, who teaches Strategy at IIM Bangalore.Episode referenced:Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart?Stories referenced:Rapido rips up the Uber-Ola playbook for cabsThis episode of Two by Two was researched and produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com, and tell us what you thought of the episode.

For the last 24 months, the default way in which startups were exposed to venture capital and its effects has been, in many ways, paused. There's a slowdown. Venture capital funding for the first nine months of this year is down 7% over a similar period last year per Tracxn.There have been news stories about layoffs, company shutdowns, and downrounds at various companies from a time when unicorns were being born every three months or so.Capital is abundant. A lot of dry it remains uninvested everywhere, but it's just not getting invested at the same rate.Building a company and scaling a company is getting cheaper because of AI and LLMs, which can generate code, which can generate images or just about anything anything that you want.And the biggest change—there's a focus on being profitable.If you've been a regular listener of Two by Two, you'd know that VCs have always managed to sneak into most, if not all, discussions on the podcast. Maybe not in the way they'd like to be represented in general, but they have been part of the conversation in some way, shape, or form.So when hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sat down for this week's episode, they got two founders-turned-VCs to join in and say their piece on the role VCs play in the world of startups. And what they need to be doing right. Manav Garg is the founder of Eka Software and co-founder of the operator-led Together Fund (Manav has previously appeared as a guest on the First Principles podcast as well), while Rajiv Srivatsa is the co-founder of Urban Ladder, and now a founding partner at Antler India.Welcome to episode 17 of Two by Two.This is a shorter 'highlights only' episode of an hour-and-a-half-long podcast. If you want to listen and get early access to the full episode, consider becoming a Premium subscriber to The Ken, which in addition to Two by Two, will also give you access to our long-form stories, Premiums newsletters and visual stories. Or if you just want to listen to Two by Two for now, for iOS users, we have enabled Premium subscription on Apple Podcasts.You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.