Podcast appearances and mentions of Brandon Phillips

United States v. Brandon Phillips

Barbara Smith, President of Cincinnati based Journey Steel, joins Jack and Randy to discuss her Cincinnati Reds fandom. The youngest of eight children, Barb was a young girl who watched her father play in minor league Negro baseball, and became a Reds fan in the early 1970s when she attended a game at Riverfront Stadium and wanted her own "flag"! (pennant)Barbs recalls her years as a Rosie Red, her favorite players George Foster, Eddie Milner, Bronson Arroyo,  and most recently Nick Castellanos, chasing down autographs and a foul ball, and catching a ball thrown into the right field stands. Barb also recounts her memories as a season ticket holder and her Opening Day attendance.  One of her highlights was a head nod from Ken Griffey, Jr., while Brandon Phillips was chasing the 30-30 Club.As Secretary of the Reds Community Fund, Barb describes her pride at the dedication of Cleveland Parker Field in Avondale as well as her years of involvement with Knothole Baseball in the inner city.Win a $50 Gift Card from Prime Cincinnati by emailing us at freepete14@gmail.com! Cincinnati's finest steakhouse and seafood restaurant!

Capt. Brandon Phillips discusses the podcast and the impact our first visit has had on his network of friends old and new. Hope you enjoyed round 2 with Brandon that published yesterday.

From a shipyard in Paducah, Capt. Brandon Phillips joins me yet again on the show to talk more about his life and experiences on and off the water. Among other things, we hear about friends, foes, food, lock dogs, industry involvement, a safety and training opportunity, and good old cheesy beef and pork tenderloin sandwiches. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe on YouTube and/or follow on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Capt. Brandon Phillips joins me again on the show on Saturday, 3/30/24 to continue the conversation we should have had the first time. In this short video, he talks about his experiences as a steersman and his opinions on some common hazing techniques for new pilots.

Captain Brandon Phillips, the first openly gay guest to appear on the show, joins me to chat through his career and the challenges faced in his life personally and professionally. He takes us on a meandering tour down the river from St. Paul, Minnesota to Cairo, Illinois and touches on the best spots to grab a bite along the way. Our conversation closes with his perspective on a few of the more contentious social issues of our time. If you enjoy this podcast, please rate, react, comment, share, subscribe, tweet, retweet, repost, and follow wherever you find it. Thanks for playing along.

Pastor David Tarkington joined the First Baptist Church of Orange Park family when he was called to serve as the Student Pastor beginning January 1, 1994. Since that time, he has served as Student Pastor, Single Adult Pastor, Young Adult Pastor, and in 2005 as Senior Pastor. David has been the longest tenured pastor in the 100+ years history of First Baptist Church. Associate Pastor Mike Godfrey preached on this day. Then, following the sermon, Jacob Saunders (deacon) shared a tribute to Pastor David with video testimonies from Brandon Phillips (former student and current associate pastor at FBC Panama City,) Neil & Kaytee Jimenez (former student & staff member - Kaytee, former deacon - Neil, and current Send Network Toronto missionaries in Canada, Rick Wheeler (Stewardship Simplified,) Bob Bumgarner (First Coast Churches,) and Josh Dryer (former associate pastor and current pastor at 5th Avenue Baptist Church in Key West.)

It's that time of the year again when we reflect on the birth of that special somebody, Rickey Henderson. Our annual holiday special this year has some of the usual stuff like rules changes, Hall of Fame voting, Larry Doby and Jake Peavy. But this year we also threw in some of the best holiday adjacent names from our favorite sport and Mark rewrites a holiday classic to reflect some players Jeff has never heard of before.  The final Wax Pack Heroes of the year could either bring Mark closer to the lead or put a final nail in his coffin. We let the 2003 Topps decide. And don't forget to fill out the 2SN HOF ballot. Your vote could be the difference between Brandon Phillips getting into the HOF or not! Don't forget, you can leave us a message at 607-216-8811.  Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/TwoStrikeNoise/ Instagram - @twostrikenoise Bluesky - @twostrikenoise.bsky.social Threads - @twostrikenoise Twitter - @twostrikenoise Two Strike Noise on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvh7epD-mqT9qCIV7CNqhog Twitch - https://www.twitch.tv/twostrikenoise E-mail - twostrikenoise@gmail.com We pull ALOT of commons in Wax Pack Heroes. If you've got those Tom Foley or Ernest Riles cards just sitting around you can donate those commons to charity and maybe spark a child's interest in baseball and collecting. Find out more here: http://commons4kids.org/ #podernfamily #podnation #baseball #mlb #history #podcast #baseballcards

Attention Costco shoppers, we found a great deal on a baseball card, but you need to be a member to save! We review the year in Immaculate Grid, check out celebrity weddings (trust us it has a baseball angle), preview a baseball music festival, talk expensive players and announcers strange diets. If that's not enough, this week we learn about brothers Leron and Leon Lee. They both played in the US but found their calling in the NPB. Hitting for power and average, they dominated the league for the decade they played. Embracing the culture, they were fan favorites but the league and ownership couldn't get past the fact that they were not Japanese. Despite adversity, they persevered and ended up in the record books. Finally, in this week's Wax Pack Heroes we come across something that has never happened before. Will it be enough for a victory to the lucky player though? And don't forget to fill out the 2SN HOF ballot. Your vote could be the difference between Brandon Phillips getting into the HOF or not! Don't forget, you can leave us a message at 607-216-8811.  Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/TwoStrikeNoise/ Instagram - @twostrikenoise Bluesky - @twostrikenoise.bsky.social Threads - @twostrikenoise Twitter - @twostrikenoise Two Strike Noise on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvh7epD-mqT9qCIV7CNqhog Twitch - https://www.twitch.tv/twostrikenoise E-mail - twostrikenoise@gmail.com We pull ALOT of commons in Wax Pack Heroes. If you've got those Tom Foley or Ernest Riles cards just sitting around you can donate those commons to charity and maybe spark a child's interest in baseball and collecting. Find out more here: http://commons4kids.org/ #podernfamily #podnation #baseball #mlb #history #podcast #baseballcards

Which Cincinnati Reds player are we most excited for in 2024? Lance McAlister joins the show to discuss why Matt McLain is the most exciting Reds player for next season.Also, Brandon Phillips is a shoo-in for the Reds Hall of Fame, but there is a player who should also go in who has been snubbed for years. And what will the Reds look like in five years?Follow & Subscribe on all Podcast platforms… 

Which Cincinnati Reds player are we most excited for in 2024? Lance McAlister joins the show to discuss why Matt McLain is the most exciting Reds player for next season. Also, Brandon Phillips is a shoo-in for the Reds Hall of Fame, but there is a player who should also go in who has been snubbed for years. And what will the Reds look like in five years? Follow & Subscribe on all Podcast platforms… 

Alot of voting going on this week. Hall of Fame, Veteran's Committee and Japan's GQ Man of the Year. We discovered a really cool new map tool from SABR, we root for John Smoltz and put a date on the calendar for a great new event MLB is holding in Cooperstown next year.  Our main story this week is about Hall of Famer Big Ed Walsh. Big Ed literally pitched until his arm fell off. But before it did he was one of the best pitchers in the league. His spitball was as prolific as his innings pitched totals. And finally Wax Pack Heroes is back as we wind down the season. Some 2003 Topps give us some good names and great stories.  And don't forget to fill out the 2SN HOF ballot. Your vote could be the difference between Brandon Phillips getting into the HOF or not! Don't forget, you can leave us a message at 607-216-8811.  SABR Baseball Map - https://fortress.maptive.com/ver4/7e78650bfdb58ca6c5dbdc95fb4b28f4 Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/TwoStrikeNoise/ Instagram - @twostrikenoise Bluesky - @twostrikenoise.bsky.social Threads - @twostrikenoise Twitter - @twostrikenoise Two Strike Noise on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvh7epD-mqT9qCIV7CNqhog Twitch - https://www.twitch.tv/twostrikenoise E-mail - twostrikenoise@gmail.com We pull ALOT of commons in Wax Pack Heroes. If you've got those Tom Foley or Ernest Riles cards just sitting around you can donate those commons to charity and maybe spark a child's interest in baseball and collecting. Find out more here: http://commons4kids.org/ #podernfamily #podnation #baseball #mlb #history #podcast #baseballcards

This week the guys give some love to Ben's Cooper Jaguars as they have advanced to the 5A Kentucky State Title Game this week! Reds-wise, we dive into Noelvi Marte's run in winter ball continuing his hot bat from the last couple of weeks of the 2023 season. In other Reds news this week, Brandon Phillips is listed on the 2024 ballot for Cooperstown. Does he have a chance? Does he have a case?   You are invited to join our ever-growing family of Cincinnati sports fans (and support the podcast) on Patreon!  You can also give us a like and subscribe to our YouTube channel to catch each episode as it is released. Follow us on Twitter @riverfrontcincy, Instagram, and Facebook.  Please subscribe to the audio podcast for free (on Apple Podcasts/iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, Amazon Music, and give us a rating/review over at iTunes and elsewhere. If you like us, tell your friends! Podcast-related questions and comments can be directed to the podcast via email (team@riverfrontcincy.com).  

Paul Hoynes and Joe Noga discuss which ex-Cleveland player in his first year on the Hall of Fame ballot has the best chance at election. If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL/IN/LA/MI/NJ/PA/TN/WV/WY), 1-800-NEXT STEP (AZ), 1-800-522-4700 (CO/KS/NH), 888-789-7777/visit http://ccpg.org (CT), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY), visit OPGR.org (OR), or 1-888-532-3500 (VA). 21+ (18+ NH/WY). Physically present in AZ/CO/CT/IL/IN/IA/KS/LA(select parishes)/MI/NH/NJ/ NY/OR/PA/TN/VA/WV/WY only. $200 in Free bets: New customers only. Min. $5 deposit. Min $5 bet. $200 issued as eight (8) $25 free bets. Bet must win. Ends 11/20/23 @ 11:59pm ET. Stepped Up SGP: 1 Token issued per eligible game. Opt in req. Min $1 bet. Max bet limits apply. Min. 3-leg. Each leg min. -300 odds, total bet +100 odds or longer. 10+ leg req. for 100% boost. Ends 1/8/23 @ 8pm ET. See eligibility & terms at sportsbook.draftkings.com/footballterms. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Enjoy this episode by the #1 towel waver in the nation

Today's guest, Brandon Phillips, boasts an illustrious MLB career. He is a 3-time All-Star, 4-time Gold Glove winner, a Silver Slugger awardee, and has achieved over 2,000 career hits along with 200 career home runs.Brandon, and his partner, All Elite Wrestler (AEW) former champion Jade Gargill, co-owns the Texas Smoke, the fourth franchise of Women's Professional Fastpitch (WPF) based in Austin, Texas. Impressively, the Texas Smoke secured the inaugural championship of the women's professional fast pitch league.In our conversation, we discuss the Texas Smoke and Brandon's passion for elevating women's sports. We explore his personal journey in baseball and the game's evolution. Emphasis is given to the progression of the sport, where the focus now lies more on rules, regulations, and strategy rather than solely on inherent talent. Brandon offers insights into the current nuances of baseball and how teams today strategize to scout promising talent.

Brandon Phillips, US Navy Veteran and Submariner joins the show this week to talk about his new books and love for writing. Born in Central California to an Army Military Police Sergeant Brandon bucked family tradition by joining the Navy. He left the muddy banks of the Wishkah hoping for greener pastures among the open sea. He concluded his time on active duty as an E6, qualified in Submarine Warfare. Brandon dove into writing seriously in the last few years while traveling across four continents as a service technician. He has worked onboard many types of sailing vessels, in several technical roles, from tugboats to drill ships: including submarines. Find out more at ⁠thesterncastlewriter.com Follow for more: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠jeffclarkofficial.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or... IG ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@⁠⁠officialJSClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ FB ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@officialJSClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@officialJSClark⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Full Episodes at: YouTube.com ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@jeffclarkofficial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ApplePodcasts.com/CourseofAction⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Spotify.com/Course of Action⁠

Welcome to COFFEE with Kim with Host Kim Crabill and Special Guest Dr. Brandon Lane Phillips. Topic:  Wishing On a Star with Dr. Brandon Lane Phillips and “Growing Pains” Jeremy Miller   At age 11, already the veteran of multiple medical procedures for heart defects, Brandon Phillips had a big wish: to meet one of the stars of his favorite TV show, Growing Pains. He longed for the home life depicted on the show and dreamed of meeting Jeremy Miller, the actor who portrayed Ben Seaver. Starlight Children's Foundation granted Brandon's wish, which set both Brandon and Jeremy on a decades-long, life-changing trajectory. On this week's “COFFEE with Kim,” Brandon and Jeremy will open up to host Kim Crabill about what happened next for both the wisher and the wish-granter when God answered a childhood prayer. Join us live Monday, June 12 at 10:00am ET for the rest of this wonderful story. Enjoying the Conversation?  Visit the COFFEE with Kim Show Page at www.up2meradio.com to learn more about the show, Host Kim Crabill, guests, to leave us a comment and subscribe to the show! This show is a production of Up2Me Radio in coordination with the Media Team of the Roses and Rainbows Ministry.  Visit the ministry at www.rosesandrainbows.org You can find, like and share us on Facebook at Up2Me Radio, follow us on Twitter @Up2Meradio and on Instagram at Up2Me.Radio Thank you for tuning in!

Drew Stubbs was a first-round pick of the Cincinnati Reds who patrolled center field from 2009 to 2012, a really fun era of Reds baseball. Stubbs joined Tim Daniel this week on Late Night Reds Talk to discuss his big league career, his memories of the 2010 and 2012 seasons when the Reds won the NL Central, and what really went down during that memorable Brandon Phillips-induced fight with the Cardinals. Come join our ever-growing family of Cincinnati Reds fans (and support the podcast) on Patreon!  You can also give us a like and subscribe to our YouTube channel to catch each episode as it is released. Follow us on Twitter @riverfrontcincy, Instagram, and Facebook. Music for this episode provided by Freekbass. Please subscribe to the audio podcast for free (on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music/Audible, Google Podcasts, iHeart Radio...and everywhere else!), and give us a rating/review -- five stars only, please. If you like us, tell your friends! Podcast-related questions and comments can be directed to the podcast via email (team@riverfrontcincy.com).

This Episode we interview Bryan Fuller, Bethany Blacketer, Brandon Phillips about their take on being a Gym Owner. Welcome to the Gym Lords Podcast, where we talk with successful gym owners to hear what they're doing that is working RIGHT NOW, and to hear lessons and failures they've learned along the way. We would love to share your story! If you'd like to be featured on the podcast, fill out the form on the link below. https://gymlaunchsecrets.com/podcast

This Episode we interview Bryan Fuller, Bethany Blacketer, Brandon Phillips about their take on being a Gym Owner. Welcome to the Gym Lords Podcast, where we talk with successful gym owners to hear what they're doing that is working RIGHT NOW, and to hear lessons and failures they've learned along the way. We would love to share your story! If you'd like to be featured on the podcast, fill out the form on the link below. https://gymlaunchsecrets.com/podcast

Mentally prepare yourself for a can't-miss conversation with Cincinnati Reds future Hall-of-Famer Joey Votto on missing the egos like Brandon Phillips and Todd Frazier, dishing out untold stories about his verbal battles with Frazier, and commenting on the recent Toronto trade rumors that popped up. It's 1hr20min into the show and thank us later. Thursday's #FTLive also checks in with NL Rookie of the Year Michael Harris II from literally inside the clubhouse and Braves skipper Brian Snitker strolls over for a cameo. Phillies manager Rob Thomson also swings by with feedback on his Phillies at the WBC and an inside look at owner John Middleton's unforgettable speech at the start of spring training. Scott, Erik and A.J. also fight about the AL Central season outlook and that's what we call a Thursday on FT. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/foulterritory/message Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Stu interviews Brandon Phillips president of the Persecution Project to tell us the grieving story of Pastor Ibrahim Kandr and how we can help the persecuted. 

On this Day in Atlanta Braves and MLB History brought to you by Rhinoshield 2017 - Brandon Phillips becomes an Atlanta Brave 1970 - National League makes a move 1987 - Jack Morris wins and cashes in 1996 - Cardinals get a big name closer that Cellini has no reciliation of being in St Louis 2002 - Rickey Henderson signs a minor league deal with the Red Sox 2008 - Roger Clemens testifiesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this Day in Atlanta Braves and MLB History brought to you by Rhinoshield 2017 - Brandon Phillips becomes an Atlanta Brave 1970 - National League makes a move 1987 - Jack Morris wins and cashes in 1996 - Cardinals get a big name closer that Cellini has no reciliation of being in St Louis 2002 - Rickey Henderson signs a minor league deal with the Red Sox 2008 - Roger Clemens testifiesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After a terrible Reds season Scott & Nick return to give their perspective on the Reds and what is needed to be done this offseason. They also celebrate the Return of Redsfest and is there a conspiracy by the Reds to keep Brandon Phillips out of the Hall of FameFollow us at https://www.facebook.com/Redsfanchatter/ Theme Song Credit: “Metalmania” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Baby Hearts Press People's Choice Award Winners, Dr. Brandon Lane Phillips and Jeremy Miller, return to "Heart to Heart with Anna' with an update on how their award-winning book is doing and all of the exciting news surrounding the book. Why would a cardiologist choose to write his life story about growing up with tetralogy of Fallot? How did his life intersect with his favorite childhood actor from the 1980s TV sitcom "Growing Pains"? What new project are these gentlemen working on?You'll learn the answers to these questions and more in this episode of "Heart to Heart with Anna."Helpful Links to Broadcast Episodes Mentioned in the Show:Starlight Foundation (for wishes for kids with chronic illness) https://www.starlight.org/Fox and Friends interview with Brandon and Jeremy: https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/growing-pains-star-jeremy-miller-and-doctor-discuss-30-year-friendshipDr. Brandon Lane Phillips' Other “Heart to Heart with Anna” appearances:8th Anniversary Special Part 1  https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/9611160 Heart Warrior Doctor-Nurse Team: Treating Pediatric Cardiology Patients https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/3725774Interwoven Lives and Congenital Heart Defects  https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/1539262Dr. Brandon Phillips and Jeremy Miller's other joint appearance:A Wish-Made Friendship https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/4190255Support the showAnna's Buzzsprout Affiliate LinkBaby Blue Sound CollectiveSocial Media Pages:Apple PodcastsFacebookInstagramMeWeTwitterYouTubeWebsite

Brandon Phillips is a professional polo player and the founder of Polo for Life. After being diagnosed and beating cancer at 14, Brandon has combined his love for polo with his mission to help others. Polo for Life is a non-profit organization that helps pediatric cancer patients and their families to provide financial assistance before, during and after treatment. Since its inception, Polo for Life has raised over $2.2 million to help those going through pediatric cancer. Listen in!

The Gadjits were an American ska and rock and roll band from Kansas City, Missouri, United States. Formed by the brothers Brandon, Zach, and Adam Phillips they were signed as young bucks to Hellcat Records in 97. They released 3 albums on that label before heading to Thick Records, then RCA where they were dropped when Clive Davis took over. From there they went on to create more bands such as The Architects, Brandon Phillips & The Condition, and Other Americans. My old band Lanemeyer played a few gigs with these kids on the road back in the day and I was beyond stoked to get them on the podcast to chat about life. The following is what we chat about: Constantly being in bands with each other Playing with Rancid as teenagers How were they treated as being a young band The Wix Hellcat Records  Changing over to The Architects The Gallows The fucking crazy Bosstones show brawl Grossing each other out Drug use The Canadian Booking Agent story And a ton more Get your Realtor Instagram Stickers by clicking here. Check out my new book The Couples' Checklist for my webcomic dailyBred. It's a great gift for Valentine's Day. I also have an Instagram for it. If you market aggressively on Instagram Stories and want custom stickers then go here to get custom stickers or just email mike@drive80.com and I can send you samples. These are great for B2C companies and Realtors. Feel free to support the podcast for as little as $1 a month through Patreon Or go to thiswasthescene.com to possibly buy some merch.

Justin Hires talks with comedians Tanjareen, Brandon Phillips, and Kil Theodrick about open marriages, Tanjareen Me Toos a guest before the show starts, women suing Bill Cosby for money, sex with white women, Tanjareen's infamous appearance in the 'Phat Tuesdays' Comedy Store documentary, frustrations with people asking you to "follow back" on social media, Beyonce' elevating Jay Z, crazy ex boyfriends and girlfriends, the power of networking, and more.Executive Producer: @JustinHiresProducer: Lee Teharte @itsmeiglee@JustinHires@officialtanjareen@ibrandonphillips@kil_tvInstagram.com/JustinHiresFacebook.com/JustinHiresTwitter.com/JustinHiresYouTube.com/JustJustinTVTikTok: @JustinHiresSnapchat: @JustinHiresText: 727-472-3770

On how his love of baseball has lasted for decades; on the joy of Ken Griffey, Jr. and Joey Votto (and the walking annoyance that was Brandon Phillips); on taking a job at a dying newspaper.

If we can tackle the porn conversation with our kids, it will help them overcome so many obstacles they'll face in the realm of relationships. Today, Brandon Phillips joins us as we discuss why  parents just cannot afford to avoid this conversation, and how to have the conversation with kids of every age. Exposure to pornography cannot be avoided, as it is part of every day life. It's coming for your kids, and your awareness is the key to navigating this area well.

In this final episode of our Rethinking Sexuality Series, we are joined by our friends Pam Cunningham and Brandon Phillips, and we are discussing the paradigm shift "Change begins with you." This entire series has been based on the seven paradigm shifts discussed in the book Rethinking Sexuality by Dr. Juli Slattery. Thank you to each of you who have joined us in the seven-part series, we are so grateful for your support. All show notes, and the link to purchase the book can be found at:  youareworththefight.com/pod/rethinking-sexuality-series-part-7

On this episode of the FosterStrong Podcast we take you on a journey from foster care to Hollywood. Buckle up for the unbelievably resilient story of actor and comedian Brandon Phillips. Thank you for listening and remember YOUR STORY MATTERS. Enjoy! --- Donate: https://bit.ly/support-FosterStrong For more info visit us a www.urfosterstrong.org --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/unbelievablyresilient/support

The Chop Won't Stop returns as we present our 2021 HOF Ballots and present the fans with a "Greatest Brave of All Time" bracket. We also have two special guests. Sam Claycamp talks about his time in indy ball where he played with a former Brave, Brandon Phillips, this season. Braves prospect, Riley Unroe, also hopped on the podcast to discuss what his 2020 year looked like and life in the Braves minor league system.

The Whosoevers Podcast

We continue to talk more 2006, because there is so much to talk about. This season the Indians went from a solid starting second baseman and a young backup to having to acquire Josh Barfield, Luis Valbuena, and Mark Derosa all in an attempt to find the answer, which they would not find until Jason Kipnis. They would keep compounding their errors and finding no answer as they watched Brandon Phillips blossom in state. We look at the 2006 draft where the Indians had 6 picks in the top 101 and ended up with virtually nothing to show for it. They would go on to later acquire many, many players from that class in trades and free agency. While they did get two solid players in day three, the one future star talent they drafted would be used in a trade for a second baseman along with the only player they go when they traded future star Brandon Phillips to the Reds.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors! PostmatesDownload the Postmates app and use code LOCKEDON. For a limited time, Postmates is giving our listeners ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS of free restaurant delivery credit for your first SEVEN days.Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON,” and you'll get $10 off your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Indians made a series of head scratching moves that they then compounded when those moves failed which ultimately lead to the window slamming shut after one postseason appearance by the early 00's Indians. A team that should have made it in 05, then tried to over compensate in 06 after a down year that if they had just stood pat likely would have set the Indians up to win the 2007 World Series, as thy barely lost in the ALCS that year. While there were two great moves that year, there were so many bad ones that I could not fit them all in one episode. This one is spread out over two days. From the big Brandon Phillips to the likely forgotten Mike Adams. We dig into it all. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week on The Podlets Podcast, we talk about cloud native infrastructure. We were interested in discussing this because we’ve spent some time talking about the different ways that people can use cloud native tooling, but we wanted to get to the root of it, such as where code lives and runs and what it means to create cloud native infrastructure. We also have a conversation about the future of administrative roles in the cloud native space, and explain why there will always be a demand for people in this industry. We dive into the expense for companies when developers run their own scripts and use cloud services as required, and provide some pointers on how to keep costs at a minimum. Joining in, you’ll also learn what a well-constructed cloud native environment should look like, which resources to consult, and what infrastructure as code (IaC) really means. We compare containers to virtual machines and then weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of bare metal data centers versus using the cloud. Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • A few perspectives on what cloud native infrastructure means. • Thoughts about the future of admin roles in the cloud native space. • The increasing volume of internet users and the development of new apps daily. • Why people in the infrastructure space will continue to become more valuable. • The cost implications for companies if every developer uses cloud services individually. • The relationships between IaC for cloud native and IaC for the could in general. • Features of a well-constructed cloud native environment. • Being aware that not all clouds are created equal and the problem with certain APIs. • A helpful resource for learning more on this topic: Cloud Native Infrastructure. • Unpacking what IaC is not and how Kubernetes really works. • Reflecting how it was before cloud native infrastructure, including using tools like vSphere. • An explanation of what containers are and how they compare to virtual machines. • Is it worth running bare metal in the clouds age? Weighing up the pros and cons. • Returning to the mainframe and how the cloud almost mimics that idea. • A list of the cloud native infrastructures we use daily. • How you can have your own “private” cloud within your bare metal data center. Quotes: “This isn’t about whether we will have jobs, it’s about how, when we are so outnumbered, do we as this relatively small force in the world handle the demand that is coming, that is already here.” — Duffie Coolie @mauilion [0:07:22] “Not every cloud that you’re going to run into is made the same. There are some clouds that exist of which the API is people. You send a request and a human being interprets your request and makes the changes. That is a big no-no.” — Nicholas Lane @apinick [0:16:19] “If you are in the cloud native workspace you may need 1% of your workforce dedicated to infrastructure, but if you are in the bare metal world, you might need 10 to 20% of your workforce dedicated just to running infrastructure.” — Nicholas Lane @apinick [0:41:03] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: VMware RADIO — https://www.vmware.com/radius/vmware-radio-amplifying-ideas-innovation/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Brandon Phillips on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonphilips Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/Apache Mesos — http://mesos.apache.orgAnsible — https://www.ansible.comTerraform — https://www.terraform.ioXenServer (Citrix Hypervisor) — https://xenserver.orgOpenStack — https://www.openstack.orgRed Hat — https://www.redhat.com/Kris Nova on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kris-novaCloud native Infrastructure — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309Heptio — https://heptio.cloud.vmware.comAWS — https://aws.amazon.comAzure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/vSphere — https://www.vmware.com/products/vsphere.htmlCircuit City — https://www.circuitcity.comNewegg — https://www.newegg.comUber —https://www.uber.com/ Lyft — https://www.lyft.com Transcript: EPISODE 05 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.1] NL: Hello and welcome to episode five of The Podlets Podcast, the podcast where we explore cloud native topics one topic at a time. This week, we’re going to the root of everything, money. No, I mean, infrastructure. My name is Nicholas Lane and joining me this week are Carlisia Campos. [0:00:59.2] CC: Hi everybody. [0:01:01.1] NL: And Duffie Cooley. [0:01:02.4] DC: Hey everybody, good to see you again. [0:01:04.6] NL: How have you guys been? Anything new and exciting going on? For me, this week has been really interesting, there’s an internal VMware conference called RADIO where we have a bunch of engineering teams across the entire company, kind of get together and talk about the future of pretty much everything and so, have been kind of sponging that up this week and that’s been really interesting to kind of talking about all the interesting ideas and fascinating new technologies that we’re working on. [0:01:29.8] DC: Awesome. [0:01:30.9] NL: Carlisia? [0:01:31.8] CC: My entire team is at RADIO which is in San Francisco and I’m not. But I’m sort of glad I didn’t have to travel. [0:01:42.8] NL: Yeah, nothing too exciting for me this week. Last week I was on PTO and that was great so this week it has just been kind of getting spun back up and I’m getting back into the swing of things a bit. [0:01:52.3] CC: Were you spun back up with a script? [0:01:57.1] NL: Yeah, I was. [0:01:58.8] CC: With infrastructure I suppose? [0:02:00.5] NL: Yes, absolutely. This week on The Podlets Podcast, we are going to be talking about cloud native infrastructure. Basically, I was interested in talking about this because we’ve spent some time talking about some of the different ways that people can use cloud native tooling but I wanted to kind of get to the root of it. Where does your code live, where does it run, what does it mean to create cloud native infrastructure? Start us off, you know, we’re going to talk about the concept. To me, cloud native infrastructure is basically any infrastructure tool or service that allows you to programmatically create infrastructure and by that I mean like your compute nodes, anything running your application, your networking, software defined networking, storage, Seth, object store, dev sort of thing, you can just spin them up in a programmatical in contract way and then databases as well which is very nice. Then I also kind of lump in anything that’s like a managed service as part of that. Going back to databases if you use like difference and they have their RDS or RDB tooling that provides databases on the fly and then they manage it for you. Those things to me are cloud native infrastructure. Duffy, what do you think? [0:03:19.7] DC: Year, I think it’s definitely one of my favorite topics. I spent a lot of my career working with infrastructure one way or the other, whether that meant racking servers in racks and doing it the old school way and figuring out power budgets and you know, dealing with networking and all of that stuff or whether that meant, finally getting to a point where I have an API and my customer’s going to come to me and say, I need 10 new servers, I can be like, one second. Then run all the script because they have 10 new servers versus you know, having to order the hardware, get the hardware delivered, get the hardware racked. Replace the stuff that was dead on arrival, kind of go through that whole process and yeah. Cloud native infrastructure or infrastructure as a service is definitely near and dear to my heart. [0:03:58.8] CC: How do you feel about if you are an admin? You work from VMware and you are a field engineer now. You’re basically a consultant but if you were back in that role of an admin at a company and you had the company was practicing cloud native infrastructure things. Basically, what we’re talking about is we go back to this theme of self-sufficiency a lot. I think we’re going to be going back to this a lot too, as we go through different topics. Mainly, someone was a server in that environment now, they can run an existing script that maybe you made it for them. But do you have concerns that your job is redundant now that you can just one script can do a lot of your work? [0:04:53.6] NL Yeah, in the field engineering org, we kind of have this mantra that we’re trying to automate ourselves out of a job. I feel like anyone who is like really getting into cloud native infrastructure, that is the path that they’re taking as well. If I were an admin in a world that was like hybrid or anything like that, they had like on prem or bare metal infrastructure and they had cloud native infrastructure. I would be more than ecstatic to take any amount of the administrative work of like spinning up new servers in the cloud native infrastructure. If the people just need somewhere they can go click, I got whatever services I need and they all work together because the cloud makes them work together, awesome. That gives me more time to do other tasks that may be a bit more onerous or less automated. I would be all for it. [0:05:48.8] CC: You’re saying that if you are – because I don’t want the admin people listening to this to stop listening and thinking, screw this. You’re saying, if you’re an admin, there will still be plenty of work for you to do? [0:06:03.8] NL: Year, there’s always stuff to do I think. If not, then I guess maybe it’s time to find somewhere else to go. [0:06:12.1] DC: There was a really interesting presentation that really stuck with me when I was working for CoreOS which is another infrastructure company, it was a presentation by our CTO, his name is Brandon Philips and Brandon put together a presentation around the idea that every single day, there are you know, so many thousand new users of the Internet coming online for the first time. That’s so many thousand people who are like going to be storing their photos there, getting emails, doing all those things that we do in our daily lives with the Internet. That globally, across the whole world, there are only about, I think it was like 250k or 300,000 people that do what we do, that understand the infrastructure at a level that they might even be able to automate it, you know? That work in the IT industry and are able to actually facilitate the creation of those resources on which all of those applications will be hosted, right? This isn’t even taking into account, the number of applications per day that are brought into the Internet or made available to users, right? That in itself is a whole different thing. How many people are putting up new webpages or putting up new content or what have you every single day. Fundamentally, I think that we have to think about the problem in a slightly different way, this isn’t about whether we will have jobs, it’s about how, when we are so outnumbered, how do we as this relatively small force in the world, handle the demand that is coming, that is already here today, right? Those people that are listening, who are working infrastructure today, you’re even more valuable when you think about it in those terms because there just aren’t enough people on the planet today to solve those problems using the tools that we are using today, right? Automation is king and it has been for a long time but it’s not going anywhere, we need the people that we have to be able to actually support much larger numbers or bigger scale of infrastructure than they know how to do today. That’s the problem that we have to solve. [0:08:14.8] NL: Yeah, totally. [0:08:16.2] CC: Looking from the perspective of whoever is paying the bills. I think that in the past, as a developer, you had to request a server to run your app in the test environment and eventually you’ll get it and that would be the server that everybody would use to run against, right? Because you’re the developer in the group and everybody’s developing different features and that one server is what we would use to push out changes to and do some level of manual task or maybe we’ll have a QA person who would do it. That’s one server or one resource or one virtual machine. Now, maybe I’m wrong but as a developer, I think what I’m seeing is I will have access to compute and storage and I’ll run a script and I boot up that resource just for myself. Is that more or less expensive? You know? If every single developer has this facility to speed things up much quicker because we’re not depending on IT and if we have a script. I mean, the reality is not as easy like just, well command and you get it but – If it’s so easy and that’s what everybody is doing, doesn’t it become expensive for the company? [0:09:44.3] NL: It can, I think when cloud native infrastructure really became more popular in the workplace and became more like mainstream, there was a lot of talk about the concept of sticker shock, right? It’s the idea of you had this predictable amount of money that was allocated to your infrastructure before, these things cost this much and their value will degrade over time, right? The server you had in 2005 is not going to be as valuable as the server you buy in 2010 but that might be a refresh cycles like five years or so. But you have this predictable amount of money. Suddenly, you have this script that we’re talking about that can spin up in equivalent resource as one of those servers and if someone just leaves it running, that will run for a long time and so, irresponsible users of the cloud or even just regular users of cloud, it does cost a lot of money to use any of these cloud services or it can cost a lot of money. Yes, there is some concern about the amount of money that these things cost because honestly, as we’re exploring cloud native topics. One thing keeps coming up is that cloud really just means, somebody else’s computer, right? You’re not using the cost of maintenance or the time it takes to maintain things, somebody else is and you’re paying that price upfront instead of doing it on like a yearly basis, right? It’s less predictable and usually a bit more than people are expected, right? But there is value there as well. [0:11:16.0] CC: You’re saying if the user is diligent enough to terminate clusters or the machine, that is how you don’t rack up unnecessary cost? [0:11:26.6] NL: Right For a test, like say you want to spin up your code really quickly and just need to – a quick like setup like networking and compute resources to test out your code and you spin up a small, like a tiny instance somewhere in one of the clouds, test out your code and then kill the instance. That won’t cost hardly anything. It didn’t really cost you much on time either, right? You had this automated process hopefully or had a manual process that isn’t too onerous and you get the resource and the things you needed and you’re good. If you aren’t a good player and you keep it going, that can get very expensive very quickly. Because It’s a number of resources used per hour I think is how most billing happens in the cloud. That can exponentially – I mean, they’re not really exponentially grow but it will increase in time to a value that you are not expecting to see. You get a billing and you’re like holy crap, what is this? [0:12:26.9] DC: I think it’s also – I mean, this is definitely where things like orchestration come in, right? With the level of obstruction that you get from things like Kubernetes or Mesos or some other tools, you’re able to provide access to those resources in a more dynamic way with the expectation and sometimes one of the explicit contract, that work load that you deploy will be deployed on common equipment, allowing for things like Vin packing which is a pretty interesting term when it comes to infrastructure and means that you can think of the fact that like, for a particular cluster. I might have 10 of those VMs that we talk about having high value. I attended to those running and then my goal is to make sure that I have enough consumers of those 10 nodes to be able to get my value out of it and so when I split up the environments, we did a little developer has a main space, right? This gets me the ability to effectively over subscribe those resources that I’m paying for in a way that will reduce the overall cost of ownership or cost of – not ownership, maybe cost of operation for those 10 nodes. Let’s take a step back and go down a like memory lane. [0:13:34.7] NL: When did you first hear about the concept of IAS or cloud native infrastructure or infrastructure as code? Carlisia? [0:13:45.5] CC: I think in the last couple of years, same as pretty much coincided with when I started to – you need to cloud native and Kubernetes. I’m not clear on the difference between the infrastructure as code for cloud native versus infrastructure as code for the cloud in general. Is there anything about cloud native that has different requirements and solutions? Are we just talking about, is the cloud and the same applies for cloud native? [0:14:25.8] NL: Yes, I think that they’re the same thing. Cloud, like infrastructure is code for the cloud is inherently cloud native, right? Cloud native just means that whatever you’re trying to do, leverages the tools and the contracts that a cloud provides. The basic infrastructure as code is basically just how do I use the cloud and that’s – [0:14:52.9] CC: In an automated way. [0:14:54.7] NL: In an automated way or just in a way, right? A properly constructed cloud should have a user interface of some kind, that uses an API, right? A contract to create these machines or create these resources. So that the way that it creates its own resources is the same that you create the resource if you programmatically do it right. Orchestration tool like Ansible or Terraform. The API calls that itself makes and its UI needs to be the same and if we have that then we have a well-constructed cloud native environment. [0:15:32.7] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. I think you know, from the perspective of cloud infrastructure or cloud native infrastructure, the goal is definitely to have – it relies on one of the topics that we covered earlier in a program around the idea of API first or API driven being such an intrinsic quality of any cloud native architecture, right? Because, fundamentally, if we can’t do it programmatically, then we’re kind of stuck in that old world of wrecking servers or going through some human managed process and then we’re right back to the same state that we were in before and there’s no way that we can actually scale our ability to manage these problems because we’re stuck in a place where it’s like one to one rather than one to many. [0:16:15.6] NL: Yeah, those API’s are critical. [0:16:17.4] DC: The API’s are critical. [0:16:18.4] NL: You bring up a good point, reminder of something. Not every cloud that you’re going to run into is made the same. There are some clouds that exist and I’m not going to specifically call them out but there are some clouds that exist that the API is people. Using their request and a human being interprets your request and makes the changes. That is a big no-no. Me no like, no good, my brain stopped. That is a poorly constructed cloud native environment. In fact, I would say it is not a cloud native environment at all, it can barely call itself a cloud and sentence. Duffie, how about you? When was the first time you heard the concept of cloud native infrastructure? [0:17:01.3] DC: I’m going to take this question in a form of like, what was the first programmatic infrastructure of those service that I played with. For me, that was actually like back in the Nicera days when we were virtualizing the network and effectively providing and building an API that would allow you to create network resources and a different target that we were developing for where things like XenServer which the time had a reasonable API that would allow you to create virtual machines but didn’t really have a good virtual network solution. There were also technologies like KVM, the ability to actually use KVM to create virtual machines. Again, with an API and then, although, in KVM, it wasn’t quite the same as an API, that’s kind of where things like OpenStack and those technologies came along and kind of wrapped a lot of the capability of KVM behind a restful API which was awesome. But yeah, I would say, XenServer was the first one and that gave me the ability to – like a command line option with which I could stand up and create virtual machines and give them so many resources and all that stuff. You know, from my perspective, it was the Nicera was the first network API that I actually ever saw and it was also one of the first ones that I worked on which was pretty neat. [0:18:11.8] CC: When was that Duffie? [0:18:13.8] DC: Some time ago. I would say like 2006 maybe? [0:18:17.2] NL: The TVs didn’t have color back then. [0:18:21.0] DC: Hey now. [0:18:25.1] NL: For me, for sort of cloud native infrastructure, it reminded me, it was the open stack days I think it was really when I first heard the phrase like I – infrastructure as a service. At the time, I didn’t even get close to grocking it. I still don’t know if I grock it fully but I was working at Red Hat at the time so this was probably back in like 2012, 2013 and we were starting to leverage OpenStack more and having like this API driven toolset that could like spin up these VMs or instances was really cool to me but it’s something I didn’t really get into using until I got into Kubernetes and specifically Kubernetes on different clouds such as like AWS or AS Ram. We’ll touch on those a little bit later but it was using those and then having like a CLI that had an API that I could reference really easily to spin things up. I was like, holy crap, this is incredible. That must have been around like the 2015, 16 timeframe I think. I think I actually heard the phrase cloud native infrastructure first from our friend Kris Nova’s book, Cloud Native Infrastructure. I think that really helped me wrap my brain around really what it is to have something be like cloud native infrastructure, how the different clouds interact in this way. I thought that was a really handy book, I highly recommend it. Also, well written and interesting read. [0:19:47.7] CC: Yes, I read it back to back and when I joined what I have to, I need to read it again actually. [0:19:53.6] NL: I agree, I need to go back to it. I think we’ve touched on something that we normally do which is like what does this topic mean to us. I think we kind of touched on that a bit but if there’s anything else that you all want to expand upon? Any aspect of infrastructure that we’ve not touched on? [0:20:08.2] CC: Well, I was thinking to say something which is reflects my first encounter with Kubernetes when I joined Heptio when it was started using Kubernetes for the very first time and I had such a misconception of why Kubernetes was. I’m saying what I’m going to say to touch base on what I want to say – I wanted to relate what infrastructure as code is not. [0:20:40.0] NL: That’s’ a very good point actually, I like that. [0:20:42.4] CC: Maybe, what Kubernetes now, I’m not clear what it is I’m going to say. Hang with me. It’s all related. I work from Valero, Valero is out, they run from Kubernetes and so I do have to have Kubernetes running for me to run Valero so we came on my machine or came around on the cloud provider and our own prem just for the pluck. For Kubernetes to run, I need to have a cluster running. Not one instance because I was used to like yeah, I could bring up an instance or an instance or two. I’ve done this before but bringing up a cluster, make sure that everything’s connected. I was like, then this. When I started having to do that, I was thinking. I thought that’s what Kubernetes did. Why do I have to bother with this? Isn’t that what Kubernetes supposed to do, isn’t it like just Kubernetes and all of that gets done? Then I had that realization, you know, that encounter where reality, no, I still have to boot up my infrastructure. That doesn’t go away because we’re doing Kubernetes. Kubernetes, this abstraction called that sits on top of that infrastructure. Now what? Okay, I can do it manually while DJIK has a great episode where Joe goes and installs everything by hand, he does thing like every single thing, right? Every single step that you need to do, hook up the network KP’s. It’s brilliant, it really helps you visualize what happens when all of the stuff, how all the stuff is brought up because ideally, you’re not doing that by hand which is what we’re talking about here. I used for example, cloud formation on AWS with a template that Heptio also has in partnership with AWS, there is a template that you can use to bring up a cluster for Kubernetes and everything’s hooked up, that proper networking piece is there. You have to do that first and then you have Kubernetes installed as part of that template. But the take home lesson for me was that I definitely wanted to do it using some sort of automation because otherwise, I don’t have time for that. [0:23:17.8] DC: Ain’t nobody got time for that, exactly. [0:23:19.4] CC: Ain’t got no time for that. That’s not my job. My job is something different. I’m just boarding these stuff up to test my software. Absolutely very handy and if you put people is not working with Kubernetes yet. I just wanted to clarify that there is a separation and the one thing is having your infrastructure input and then you have installed Kubernetes on top of that and then you know, you might have, your application running in Kubernetes or you can have an external application that interacts with Kubernetes. As an extension of Kubernetes, right? Which is what I – the project that I work on. [0:24:01.0] NL: That’s a good point and that’s something we should dive into and I’m glad that you brought this up actually, that’s a good example of a cloud native application using the cloud native infrastructure. Kubernetes has a pretty good job of that all around and so the idea of like Kubernetes itself is a platform. You have like a platform as a service that’s kind of what you’re talking about which is like, if I spin up. I just need to spin up a Kubernetes and then boom, I have a platform and that comes with the infrastructure part of that. There are more and more to like, of this managed Kubernetes offerings that are coming out that facilitate that function and those are an aspect of cloud native infrastructure. Those are the managed services that I was referring to where the administrators of the cloud are taking it upon themselves to do all that for you and then manage it for you and I think that’s a great offering for people who just don’t want to get into the weeds or don’t want to worry about the management of their application. Some of these like – For instance, databases. These managed services are awesome tool and going back to Kubernetes a little bit as well, it is a great show of how a cloud native application can work with the infrastructure that it’s on. For instance, when Kubernetes, if you spin up a service of type load balancer and it’s connected to a cloud properly, the cloud will create that object inside of itself for you, right? A load balancer in AWS is an ELB, it’s just a load balancer in Azure and I’m not familiar with the other terms that the other clouds use, they will create these things for you. I think that the dopest thing on the planet, that is so cool where I’m just like, this tool over here, I created it I n this thing and it told this other thing how to make that work in reality. [0:25:46.5] DC: That is so cool. Orchestration magic. [0:25:49.8] NL: Yeah, absolutely. [0:25:51.6] DC: I agree, and then, actually, I kind of wanted to make a point on that as well which is that, I think – the way I interpreted your original question, Carlisia was like, “What is the difference perhaps between these different models that I call the infrastructure-esque code versus a plat… you know or infrastructure as a service versus platform as a service versus containers as a service like what differentiates these things and for my part, I feel like it is effectively an evolution of the API like what the right entry point for your consumer is. So in the form, when we consider container orchestration. We consider things like middle this in Kubernetes and technologies like that. We make the assumption that the right entry point for that user is an API in which they can define those things that we want to orchestrate. Those containers or those applications and we are going to provide within the form of that platform capability like you know, service discovery and being able to handle networking and do all of those things for you. So that all you really have to do is to find like what needs to be deployed. And what other services they need to rely on and away you go. Whereas when you look at infrastructure of the service, the entry point is fundamentally different, right? We need to be thinking about what the infrastructure needs to look at like I would might ask an infrastructure as a service API how man machines I have running and what networks they are associated with and how much memory and disk is associated with each of those machines. Whereas if I am interacting with a platform as a service, I might ask whatever the questions about those primitives that are exposed by their platform, how many deployments do I have? What name spaces do I have access to do? How many pods are running right now versus how many I ask that would be running? Those questions capabilities. [0:27:44.6] NL: Very good point and yeah I am glad that we explored that a little bit and cloud native infrastructure is not nothing but it is close to useless without a properly leveraged cloud native application of some kind. [0:27:57.1] DC: These API’s all the way down give you this true flexibility and like the real functionality that you are looking for in cloud because as a developer, I don’t need to care how the networking works or where my storage is coming from or where these things are actually located. What the API does any of these things. I want someone to do it for me and then API does that, success and that is what cloud native structure gets even. Speaking of that, the thing that you don’t care about. What was it like before cloud? What do we have before cloud native infrastructure? The things that come to mind are the things like vSphere. I think vSphere is a bridge between the bare metal world and the cloud native world and that is not to say that vSphere itself is not necessarily cloud native but there are some limitations. [0:28:44.3] CC: What is vSphere? [0:28:46.0] DC: vSphere is a tool that VMware has created a while back. I think it premiered back in 2000, 2000-2001 timeframe and it was a way to predictably create and manage virtual machines. So in virtual machine being a kernel that sits on top of a kernel inside of a piece of hardware. [0:29:11.4] CC: So is vSphere two virtual machines where to Kubernetes is to containers? [0:29:15.9] DC: Not quite the same thing I don’t think because fundamentally, the underlying technologies are very different. Another way of explaining the difference that you have that history is you know, back in the day like 2000, 90s even currently like what we have is we have a layer of people who are involved in dealing with physical hardware. They rack 10 or 20 servers and before we had orchestration and virtualization and any of those things, we would actually be installing an operating system and applications on those servers. Those servers would be webservers and those servers will be database servers and they would be a physical machine dedicated to a single task like a webserver or database. Where vSphere comes in and XenServer and then KVM and those technologies is that we think about this model fundamentally differently instead of thinking about it like one application per physical box. We think about each physical box being able to hold a bunch of these virtual boxes that look like virtual machines. And so now those virtual machines are what we put our application code. I have a virtual machine that is a web server. I have a virtual machine that is a database server. I have that level of abstraction and the benefit of this is that I can get more value out of those hardware boxes than I could before, right? Before I have to buy one box or one application, now I can buy one box for 10 or 20 applications. When we take that to the next level, when we get to container orchestration. We realized, “You know what? Maybe I don’t need the full abstraction of a machine. I just need enough of an abstraction to give me enough, just enough isolation back and forth between those applications such that they have their own file system but they can share the kernel but they have their own network” but they can share the physical network that we have enough isolation between them but they can’t interact with each other except for when intent is present, right? That we have that sort of level of abstraction. You can see that this is a much more granular level of abstraction and the benefit of that is that we are not actually trying to create a virtual machine anymore. We are just trying to effectively isolate processes in a Linux kernel and so instead of 20 or maybe 30 VMs per physical box, I can get a 110 process all day long you know on a physical box and again, this takes us back to that concept that I mentioned earlier around bin packing. When we are talking about infrastructure, we have been on this eternal quest to make the most of what we have to make the most of that infrastructure. You know, how do we actually – what tools and tooling that we need to be able to see the most efficiency for the dollar that we spend on that hardware? [0:32:01.4] CC: That is simultaneously a great explanation of container and how containers compare with virtual machines, bravo. [0:32:11.6] DC: That was really low crap idea that was great. [0:32:14.0] CC: Now explain vSphere please I still don’t understand it. I don’t know what it does. [0:32:19.0] NL: So vSphere is the one that creates the many virtual machines on top of a physical machine. It gives you the capability of having really good isolation between these virtual machines and inside of these virtual machines you feel like you have like a metal box but it is not a metal box it is just a process running on a metal box. [0:32:35.3] CC: All right, so it is a system that holds multiple virtual machines inside the same machine. [0:32:41.8] NL: Yeah, so think of it in the cloud native like infrastructure world, vSphere is essentially the API or you could think of it as the cloud itself, which is in the sense an AWS but for your datacenter. The difference being that there isn’t a particularly useful API that vSphere exposes so it makes it harder for people to programmatically leverage, which makes it difficult for me to say like vSphere is a cloud native app like tool. It is a great tool and it has worked wonders and still works wonders for a lot of companies throughout the years but I would hesitate to lump into a cloud native functionality. So prior to cloud native or infrastructures and service, we had these tools like vSphere, which allowed us to make smaller and smaller VMs or smaller and smaller compute resources on a larger compute resource and going back to something, we’re talking about containers and how you spin up these processes. Prior to things that containers and in this world of VM’s a lot of times what you do is you would create a VM that had your application already installed into it. It is burnt into the image so that when that VM stood up it would spin up that process. So that would be the way that you would start processes. The other way would be through orchestration tools similar to Ansible but they existed right or Ansible. That essentially just ran SSH on a number of servers to startup tools like these processes and that is how you’d get distributed systems prior to things like cloud native and containers. [0:34:20.6] CC: Makes sense. [0:34:21.6] NL: And so before we had vSphere we already had XenServer. Before we had virtual machine automation, which is what these tools are, virtual machine automation we had bare metal. We just had joes like Duffie and me cutting our hands on rack equipment. A server was never installed properly unless my blood is on it essentially because they are heavy and it is all metal and it sharpens some capacity and so you would inevitably squash a hand or something. And so you’d rack up the server and then you’d plug in all the things, plug in all the plugs and then set it up manually and then it is good to go and then someone can use it at will or in a logical manner hopefully and that is what we had to do before. It’s like, “Oh I need a new compute resource” okay well, let us call Circuit City or whoever, let us call Newegg and get a new server in and there you go” and then there is a process for that and yeah I think, I don’t know I’m dying of blood loss anymore. [0:35:22.6] CC: And still a lot of companies are using bare metal as a matter of course, which brings up another question, if one would want to ask, which is, is it worth it these days to run bare metal if you have the clouds, right? One example is we see companies like Uber, Lyft, all of these super high volume companies using public clouds, which is to say paying another company for all the data, traffic of data, storage of data in computes and security and everything. And you know one could say, you would save a ton of money to have that in house but using bare metal and other people would say there is no way that this costs so much to host all of that. [0:36:29.1] NL: I would say it really depends on the environment. So usually I think that if a company is using only cloud native resources to begin with, it is hard to make the transition into bare metal because you are used to these tools being in place. A company that is more familiar like they came from a bare metal background and moved to cloud, they may leverage both in a hybrid fashion well because they should have tooling or they can now create tooling so that they can make it so that their bare metal environment can mimic the functionality of the cloud native platform, it really depends on the company and also the need of security and data retention and all of these thing to have like if you need this granularity of control bare metal might be a better approach because of you need to make sure that your data doesn’t leave your company in a specific way putting it on somebody else’s computer probably isn’t the best way to handle that. So there is a balancing act of how much resources are you using in the cloud and how are you using the cloud and what does that cost look like versus what does it cost to run a data center to like have the physical real estate and then have like run the electricity VH fact, people’s jobs like their salaries specifically to manage that location and your compute and network resources and all of these things. That is a question that each company will have to ask. There is normally like hard and fast answer but many smaller companies something like the cloud is better because you don’t have to like think of all these other costs associated with running your application. [0:38:04.2] CC: But then if you are a small company. I mean if you are a small company it is a no brainer. It makes sense for you to go to the clouds but then you said that it is hard to transition from the clouds to bare metal. [0:38:17.3] NL: It can and it really depends on the people that you have working for you. Like if the people you have working for you are good and creating automation and are good and managing infrastructure of any kind, it shouldn’t be too bad but as we’re moving more and more into a cloud focused world, I wonder if those people are going to start going away. [0:38:38.8] CC: For people who are just listening on the podcast, Duffie was heavily nodding as Nick was saying that. [0:38:46.5] DC: I was. I do, I completely agree with the statement that it depends on the people that you have, right? And fundamentally I think the point I would add to this is that Uber or a company like Uber or a company like Lyft, how many people do they employ that are focused on infrastructure, right? And I don’t know the answer to this question but I am positioning it, right? And so, if we assume that they have – that this is a pretty hot market for people who understand infrastructure. So they are not going to have a ton of them, so what specific problems do they want those people that they employ that are focused on infrastructure to solve right? And we are thinking about this as a scale problem. I have 10 people that are going to manage the infrastructure for all of the applications that Uber has, maybe have 20 people but it is going to be a percentage of the people compared to the number of people that I have maybe developing for those applications or for marketing or for within the company. I am going to have, I am going to be, I am going to quickly find myself off balance and then the number of applications that I need to actually support that I need to operationalize to be able to get to be deployed, right? Versus the number of people that I have doing the infrastructure work to provide that base layer for which problems in application will be deployed, right? I look around in the market and I see things like orchestration. I see things like Kubernetes and Mezos and technologies like that. That can provide kind of a multiplier or even AWS or Azure or GCP. I have these things act as a multiplier for those 10 infrastructure pull that I have, right? Because no – they are not looking at trying to figure out how to store it, you know get this data. They are not worried about data centers, they are not worried about servers, they are not worried about networking, right? They can actually have ten people that are decent at infrastructure that can expand, that can spin up very large amounts of infrastructure to satisfy the developing and operational need of a company the size of Uber reasonably. But if we had to go back to a place where we had to do all of that in the physical world like rack those servers, deal with the power, deal with the cool low space, deal with all the cabling and all of that stuff, 10 people are probably not enough. [0:40:58.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely. I put into numbers like if you are in the cloud native workspace you may need 1% of your workforce dedicated to infrastructure, but if you are in the bare metal world, you might need 10 to 20% of your workforce dedicated just to running infrastructure. because the overtly overhead of people’s work is so much greater and a lot of it is focused on things that are tangible instead of things that are fundamental like automation, right? So those 1% or Uber if I am pulling this number totally out of nowhere but if that one percent, their job is to usually focus around automating the allocation of resources and figuring out like the tools that they can use to better leverage those clouds. In the bare metal environment, those people’s jobs are more like, “Oh crap, suddenly we are like 90 degrees in the data center in San Jose, what is going on?” and then having someone go out there and figuring out what physical problem is going on. It is like their day to day lives and something I want to touch on really quickly as well with bare metal, prior to bare metal we had something kind of interesting that we were able to leverage from an infrastructure standpoint and that is mainframes and we are actually going back a little bit to the mainframe idea but the idea of a mainframe, it is essentially it is almost like a cloud native technology but not really. So instead of you using whatever like you are able to spin up X number of resources and networking and make that work. With the mainframe at work is that everyone use the same compute resource. It was just one giant compute resource. There is no networking native because everyone is connected with the same resource and they would just do whatever they needed, write their code, run it and then be done with it and then come off and it was a really interesting idea I think where the cloud almost mimics a mainframe idea where everyone just connects to the cloud. Does whatever they need and then comes off but at a different scale and yeah, Duffie do you have any thoughts on that? [0:43:05.4] DC: Yeah, I agree with your point. I think it is interesting to go back to mainframe days and I think from the perspective of like what a mainframe is versus like what the idea of a cluster in those sorts of things are is that it is kind of like the domain of what you’re looking at. Mainframe considers everything to be within the same physical domain whereas like when you start getting into the larger architectures or some of the more scalable architectures you find that just like any distributed system we are spreading that work across a number of physical nodes. And so we think about it fundamentally differently but it is interesting the parallels between what we do, the works that we are doing today versus what we are doing in maintain times. [0:43:43.4] NL: Yeah, cool. I think we are getting close to a wrap up time but something that I wanted to touch on rather quickly, we have mentioned these things by names but I want to go over some of like the cloud native infrastructures that we use on a day to day basis. So something that we don’t mention them before but Amazon’s AWS is pretty much the number one cloud, I’m pretty sure, right? That is the most number of users and they have a really well structured API. A really good seal eye, peace and gooey, sometimes there is some problems with it and it is the thing that people think of when they think cloud native infrastructure. Going back to that point again, I think that AWS was agreed, AWS is one of the largest cloud providers and has certainly the most adoption as an infrastructure for cloud native infrastructure and it is really interesting to see a number of solutions out there. IBM has one, GCP, Azure, there are a lot of other solutions out there now. That are really focused on trying to follow the same, it could be not the same exact patterns that AWS has but certainly providing this consistent API for all of the same resources or for all of the same services serving and maybe some differentiating services as well. So it is yeah, you could definitely tell it is sort of like for all the leader. You can definitely tell that AWS stumbled onto a really great solution there and that all of the other cloud providers are jumping on board trying to get a piece of that as well. [0:45:07.0] DC: Yep. [0:45:07.8] NL: And also something we can touch on a little bit as well but from a cloud native infrastructure standpoint, it isn’t wrong to say that a bare metal data center can be a cloud native infrastructure. As long as you have the tooling in place, you can have your own cloud native infrastructure, your own private cloud essentially and I know that private cloud doesn’t actually make any sense. That is not how cloud works but you can have a cloud native infrastructure in your own data center but it takes a lot of work. And it takes a lot of management but it isn’t something that exists solely in the realm of Amazon, IBM, Google or Microsoft and I can’t remember the other names, you know the ones that are running as well. [0:45:46.5] DC: Yeah agreed and actually one of the questions you asked, Carlisia, earlier that I didn’t get a chance to answer was do you think it is worth running bare metal today and in my opinion the answer will always be yes, right? Especially as we think about like it is a line that we draw in the sand is container isolation or container orchestration, then there will always be a good reason to run on bare metal to basically expose resources that are available to us against a single bare metal instance. Things like GPU’s or other physical resources like that or maybe we just need really, really fast disk and we want to make sure that we like provide those containers to access to SSDs underlying and there is technology certainly introduced by VMware that expose real hardware from the underlying hype riser up to the virtual machine where these particular containers might run but you know the question I think you – I always come back to the idea that when thinking about those levels of abstraction that provide access to resources like GPU’s and those sorts of things, you have to consider that simplicity is king here, right? As we think about the different fault domains or the failure domains as we are coming up with these sorts of infrastructures, we have to think about what would it look like when they fail or how they fail or how we actually go about allocating those resources for ticket of the machines and that is why I think that bare metal and technologies like that are not going away. I think they will always be around but to the next point and I think as we covered pretty thoroughly in this episode having an API between me and the infrastructure is not something I am willing to give up. I need that to be able to actually to solve my problems at scale even reasonable scale. [0:47:26.4] NL: Yeah, you mean you don’t want to go back to the battle days of around tell netting into a juniper switch and Telnet – setting up your IP – not IP tables it was your IP comp commands. [0:47:39.9] DC: Did you just say Telnet? [0:47:41.8] NL: I said Telnet yeah or serial, serial connect into it. [0:47:46.8] DC: Nice, yeah. [0:47:48.6] NL: All right, I think that pretty much covers it from a cloud native infrastructure. Do you all have any finishing thoughts on the topic? [0:47:54.9] CC: No, this was great. Very informative. [0:47:58.1] DC: Yeah, I had a great time. This is a topic that I very much enjoy. It is things like Kubernetes and the cloud native infrastructure that we exist in is always what I wanted us to get to. When I was in university this was I’m like, “Oh man, someday we are going to live in a world with virtual machines” and I didn’t even have the idea of containers but people can real easily to play with applications like I was amazed that we weren’t there yet and I am so happy to be in this world now. Not to say that I think we can stop and we need to stop improving, of course not. We are not at the end of the journey by far but I am so happy we’re at where we are at right now. [0:48:34.2] CC: As a developer I have to say I am too and I had this thought in my mind as we are having this conversation that I am so happy too that we are where we are and I think well obviously not everybody is there yet but as people start practicing the cloud native development they will come to realize what is it that we are talking about. I mean I said before, I remember the days when for me to get access to a server, I had to file a ticket, wait for somebody’s approval. Maybe I won’t get an approval and when I say me, I mean my team or one of us would do the request and see that. Then you had that server and everybody was pushing to the server like one the main version of our app would maybe run like every day we will get a new fresh copy. The way it is now, I don’t have to depend on anyone and yes, it is a little bit of work to have to run this choreo to put up the clusters but it is so good that is not for me. [0:49:48.6] DC: Yeah, exactly. [0:49:49.7] CC: I am selfish that way. No seriously, I don’t have to wait for a code to merge and be pushed. It is my code that is right there sitting on my computer. I am pushing it to the clouds, boom, I can test it. Sometimes I can test it on my machine but some things I can’t. So when I am doing volume or I have to push it to the cloud provider is amazing. It is so, I don’t know, I feel very autonomous and that makes me very happy. [0:50:18.7] NL: I totally agree for that exact reason like testing things out maybe something isn’t ready for somebody else to see. It is not ready for prime time. So I need something really quick to test it out but also for me, I am the avatar of unwitting chaos meaning basically everything I touch will eventually blow up. So it is also nice that whatever I do that’s weird isn’t going to affect anybody else either and that is great. Blast radius is amazing. All right, so I think that pretty much wraps it up for a cloud native infrastructure episode. I had an awesome time. This is always fun so please send us your concepts and ideas in the GitHub issue tracker. You can see our existing episode and suggestions and you can add your own at github.com/heptio/thecubelets and go to the issues tab and file a new issue or see what is already there. All right, we’ll see you next time. [0:51:09.9] DC: Thank you. [0:51:10.8] CC: Thank you, bye. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:51:13.9] KN: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to the first episode of The Podlets Podcast! On the show today we’re kicking it off with some introductions to who we all are, how we got involved in VMware and a bit about our career histories up to this point. We share our vision for this podcast and explain the unique angle from which we will approach our conversations, a way that will hopefully illuminate some of the concepts we discuss in a much greater way. We also dive into our various experiences with open source, share what some of our favorite projects have been and then we define what the term “cloud native” means to each of us individually. The contribution that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) is making in the industry is amazing, and we talk about how they advocate the programs they adopt and just generally impact the community. We are so excited to be on this podcast and to get feedback from you, so do follow us on Twitter and be sure to tune in for the next episode! Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Hosts: Carlisia Campos Kris Nóva Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Key Points from This Episode: An introduction to us, our career histories and how we got into the cloud native realm. Contributing to open source and everyone’s favorite project they have worked on. What the purpose of this podcast is and the unique angle we will approach topics from. The importance of understanding the “why” behind tools and concepts. How we are going to be interacting with our audience and create a feedback loop. Unpacking the term “cloud native” and what it means to each of us. Differentiating between the cloud native apps and cloud native infrastructure. The ability to interact with APIs as the heart of cloud natives. More about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) and their role in the industry. Some of the great things that happen when a project is donated to the CNCF. The code of conduct that you need to adopt to be part of the CNCF. And much more! Quotes: “If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget.” — @carlisia [0:12:54] “I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it.” — @mauilion [0:13:51] “When you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering.” — @krisnova [0:16:57] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets VMware — https://www.vmware.com/Nicholas Lane on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-ross-laneRed Hat — https://www.redhat.com/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilionApache Mesos — http://mesos.apache.org/Kris Nova on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kris-novaSolidFire — https://www.solidfire.com/NetApp — https://www.netapp.com/us/index.aspxMicrosoft Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisiaFastly — https://www.fastly.com/FreeBSD — https://www.freebsd.org/OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/Open vSwitch — https://www.openvswitch.org/Istio — https://istio.io/The Kublets on GitHub — https://github.com/heptio/thekubeletsCloud Native Infrastructure on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309Cloud Native Computing Foundation — https://www.cncf.io/Terraform — https://www.terraform.io/KubeCon — https://www.cncf.io/community/kubecon-cloudnativecon-events/The Linux Foundation — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/Sysdig — https://sysdig.com/opensource/falco/OpenEBS — https://openebs.io/Aaron Crickenberger — https://twitter.com/spiffxp Transcript: [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concept, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] KN: Welcome to the podcast. [0:00:42.5] NL: Hi. I’m Nicholas Lane. I’m a cloud native Architect. [0:00:45.0] CC: Who do you work for, Nicholas? [0:00:47.3] NL: I've worked for VMware, formerly of Heptio. [0:00:50.5] KN: I think we’re all VMware, formerly Heptio, aren’t we? [0:00:52.5] NL: Yes. [0:00:54.0] CC: That is correct. It just happened that way. Now Nick, why don’t you tell us how you got into this space? [0:01:02.4] NL: Okay. I originally got into the cloud native realm working for Red Hat as a consultant. At the time, I was doing OpenShift consultancy. Then my boss, Paul, Paul London, left Red Hat and I decided to follow him to CoreOS, where I met Duffie and Josh. We were on the field engineering team there and the sales engineering team. Then from there, I found myself at Heptio and now with VMware. Duffie, how about you? [0:01:30.3] DC: My name is Duffie Cooley. I'm also a cloud native architect at VMware, also recently Heptio and CoreOS. I've been working in technologies like cloud native for quite a few years now. I started my journey moving from virtual machines into containers with Mesos. I spent some time working on Mesos and actually worked with a team of really smart individuals to try and develop an API in front of that crazy Mesos thing. Then we realized, “Well, why are we doing this? There is one that's called Kubernetes. We should jump on that.” That's the direction in my time with containerization and cloud native stuff has taken. How about you Josh? [0:02:07.2] JR: Hey, I’m Josh. I similar to Duffie and Nicholas came from CoreOS and then to Heptio and then eventually VMware. Actually got my start in the middleware business oddly enough, where we worked on the Egregious Spaghetti Box, or the ESB as it’s formally known. I got to see over time how folks were doing a lot of these, I guess, more legacy monolithic applications and that sparked my interest into learning a bit about some of the cloud native things that were going on. At the time, CoreOS was at the forefront of that. It was a natural progression based on the interests and had a really good time working at Heptio with a lot of the folks that are on this call right now. Kris, you want to give us an intro? [0:02:48.4] KN: Sure. Hi, everyone. Kris Nova. I've been SRE DevOps infrastructure for about a decade now. I used to live in Boulder, Colorado. I came out of a couple startups there. I worked at SolidFire, we went to NetApp. I used to work on the Linux kernel there some. Then I was at Deis for a while when I first started contributing to Kubernetes. We got bought by Microsoft, left Microsoft, the Azure team. I was working on the original managed Kubernetes there. Left that team, joined up with Heptio, met all of these fabulous folks. I think, I wrote a book and I've been doing a lot of public speaking and some other junk along the way. Yeah. Hi. What about you, Carlisia? [0:03:28.2] CC: All right. I think it's really interesting that all the guys are lined up on one call and all the girls on another call. [0:03:34.1] NL: We should have probably broken it up more. [0:03:36.4] CC: I am a developer and have always been a developer. Before joining Heptio, I was working for Fastly, which is a CDN company. They’re doing – helping them build the latest generation of their TLS management system. At some point during my stay there, Kevin Stuart was posting on Twitter, joined Heptio. At this point, Heptio was about, I don't know, between six months in a year-old. I saw those tweets go by I’m like, “Yeah, that sounds interesting, but I'm happy where I am.” I have a very good friend, Kennedy actually. He saw those tweets and here he kept saying to me, “You should apply. You should apply, because they are great people. They did great things. Kubernetes is so hot.” I’m like, “I'm happy where I am.” Eventually, I contacted Kevin and he also said, “Yeah, that it would be a perfect match.” two months later decided to apply. The people are amazing. I did think that Kubernetes was really hard, but my decision-making went towards two things. The people are amazing and some people who were working there I already knew from previous opportunities. Some of the people that I knew – I mean, I love everyone. The only thing was that it was an opportunity for me to work with open source. I definitely could not pass that up. I could not be happier to have made that decision now with VMware acquiring Heptio, like everybody here I’m at VMware. Still happy. [0:05:19.7] KN: Has everybody here contributed to open source before? [0:05:22.9] NL: Yup, I have. [0:05:24.0] KN: What's everybody's favorite project they've worked on? [0:05:26.4] NL: That's an interesting question. From a business aspect, I really like Dex. Dex is an identity provider, or a middleware for identity provider. It provides an OIDC endpoint for multiple different identity providers. You can absorb them into Kubernetes. Since Kubernetes only has an OIDC – only accepts OIDC job tokens for authentication, that functionality that Dex provides is probably my favorite thing. Although, if I'm going to be truly honest, I think right now the thing that I'm the most excited about working on is my own project, which is starting to join like me, joining into my interest in doing Chaos engineering. What about you guys? What’s your favorite? [0:06:06.3] KN: I understood some of those words. NL: Those are things we'll touch on on different episodes. [0:06:12.0] KN: Yeah. I worked on FreeBSD for a while. That was my first welcome to open source. I mean, that was back in the olden days of IRC clients and writing C. I had a lot of fun, and still I'm really close with a lot of folks in the FreeBSD community, so that always has a special place in my heart, I think, just that was my first experience of like, “Oh, this is how you work on a team and you work collaboratively together and it's okay to fail and be open.” [0:06:39.5] NL: Nice. [0:06:40.2] KN: What about you, Josh? [0:06:41.2] JR: I worked on a project at CoreOS. Well, a project that's still out there called ALB Ingress controller. It was a way to bring the AWS ALBs, which are just layer 7 load balancers and take the Kubernetes API ingress, attach those two together so that the ALB could serve ingress. The reason that it was the most interesting, technology aside, is just it went from something that we started just myself and a colleague, and eventually gained community adoption. We had to go through the process of just being us two worrying about our concerns, to having to bring on a large community that had their own business requirements and needs, and having to say no at times and having to encourage individuals to contribute when they had ideas and issues, because we didn't have the bandwidth to solve all those problems. It was interesting not necessarily from a technical standpoint, but just to see what it actually means when something starts to gain traction. That was really cool. Yeah, how about you Duffie? [0:07:39.7] DC: I've worked on a number of projects, but I find that generally where I fit into the ecosystem is basically helping other people adopt open source technologies. I spent a quite a bit of my time working on OpenStack and I spent some time working on Open vSwitch and recently in Kubernetes. Generally speaking, I haven't found myself to be much of a contributor to of code to those projects per se, but more like my work is just enabling people to adopt those technologies because I understand the breadth of the project more than the detail of some particular aspect. Lately, I've been spending some time working more on the SIG Network and SIG-cluster-lifecycle stuff. Some of the projects that have really caught my interest are things like, Kind which is Kubernetes in Docker and working on KubeADM itself, just making sure that we don't miss anything obvious in the way that KubeADM is being used to manage the infrastructure again. [0:08:34.2] KN: What about you, Carlisia? [0:08:36.0] CC: I realize it's a mission what I'm working on at VMware. That is coincidentally the project – the open source project that is my favorite. I didn't have a lot of experience with open source, just minor contributions here and there before this project. I'm working with Valero. It's a disaster recovery tool for Kubernetes. Like I said, it's open source. We’re coming up to version 1 pretty soon. The other maintainers are amazing, super knowledgeable and very experienced, mature. I have such a joy to work with them. My favorites. [0:09:13.4] NL: That's awesome. [0:09:14.7] DC: Should we get into the concept of cloud native and start talking about what we each think of this thing? Seems like a pretty loaded topic. There are a lot of people who would think of cloud native as just a generic term, we should probably try and nail it down here. [0:09:27.9] KN: I'm excited for this one. [0:09:30.1] CC: Maybe we should talk about what this podcast show is going to be? [0:09:34.9] NL: Sure. Yeah. Totally. [0:09:37.9] CC: Since this is our first episode. [0:09:37.8] NL: Carlisia, why don't you tell us a little bit about the podcast? [0:09:40.4] CC: I will be glad to. The idea that we had was to have a show where we can discuss cloud native concepts. As opposed to talking about particular tools or particular project, we are going to aim to talk about the concepts themselves and approach it from the perspective of a distributed system idea, or issue, or concept, or a cloud native concept. From there, we can talk about what really is this problem, what people or companies have this problem? What usually are the solutions? What are the alternative ways to solve this problem? Then we can talk about tools that are out there that people can use. I don't think there is a show that approaches things from this angle. I'm really excited about bringing this to the community. [0:10:38.9] KN: It's almost like TGIK, but turned inside out, or flipped around where TGIK, we do tools first and we talk about what exactly is this tool and how do you use it, but I think this one, we're spinning that around and we're saying, “No, let's pick a broader idea and then let's explore all the different possibilities with this broader idea.” [0:10:59.2] CC: Yeah, I would say so. [0:11:01.0] JR: From the field standpoint, I think this is something we often times run into with people who are just getting started with larger projects, like Kubernetes perhaps, or anything really, where a lot of times they hear something like the word Istio come out, or some technology. Often times, the why behind it isn't really considered upfront, it's just this tool exists, it's being talked about, clearly we need to start looking at it. Really diving into the concepts and the why behind it, hopefully will bring some light to a lot of these things that we're all talking about day-to-day. [0:11:31.6] CC: Yeah. Really focusing on the what and the why. The how is secondary. That's what my vision of this show is. [0:11:41.7] KN: I like it. [0:11:43.0] NL: That's something that really excites me, because there are a lot of these concepts that I talk about in my day-to-day life, but some of them, I don't actually think that I understand pretty well. It's those words that you've heard a million times, so you know how to use them, but you don't actually know the definition of them. [0:11:57.1] CC: I'm super glad to hear you say that mister, because as a developer in many not a system – not having a sysadmin background. Of course, I did sysadmin things as a developer, but not it wasn't my day-to-day thing ever. When I started working with Kubernetes, a lot of things I didn't quite grasp and that's a super understatement. I noticed that I mean, I can ask questions. No problem. I will dig through and find out and learn. The problem is that in talking to experts, a lot of the time when people, I think, but let me talk about myself. A lot of time when I ask a question, the experts jump right to the how. What is this? “Oh, this is how you do it.” I don't know what this is. Back off a little bit, right? Back up. I don't know what this is. Why is this doing this? I don't know. If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget. That's what's going to happen. I mean, it’s great you're trying to make an effort and show me the how to do something. This is personal, the way I learn. I need to understand the how first. This is why I'm so excited about this show. It's going to be awesome. This is what we’re going to talk about. [0:13:19.2] DC: Yeah, I agree. This is definitely one of the things that excites me about this topic as well, is that I find my secret super power is troubleshooting. That means that I can actually understand what the expected relationships between things should do, right? Rather than trying to figure out. Without really digging into the actual problem of stuff and what and the how people were going, or the people who were developing the code were trying to actually solve it, or thought about it. It's hard to get to the point where you fully understand that that distributed system. I think this is a great place to start. The other thing I'll say is that I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it. This podcast for me is about that. Let's bring up all the questions and we should enable our audience to actually ask us questions somehow, and get to a place where we can get as many perspectives on a problem as we can, such that we can really dig into the detail of what the problem is before we ever talk about how to solve it. Good stuff. [0:14:18.4] CC: Yeah, absolutely. [0:14:19.8] KN: Speaking of a feedback loop from our audience and taking the problem first and then solution in second, how do we plan on interacting with our audience? Do we want to maybe start a GitHub repo, or what are we thinking? [0:14:34.2] NL: I think a GitHub repo makes a lot of sense. I also wouldn't mind doing some social media malarkey, maybe having a Twitter account that we run or something like that, where people can ask questions too. [0:14:46.5] CC: Yes. Yes to all of that. Yeah. Having an issue list that in a repo that people can just add comments, praises, thank you, questions, suggestions for concepts to talk about and say like, “Hey, I have no clue what this means. Can you all talk about it?” Yeah, we'll talk about it. Twitter. Yes. Interact with those on Twitter. I believe our Twitter handle is TheKubelets. [0:15:12.1] KN: Oh, we already have one. Nice. [0:15:12.4] NL: Yes. See, I'm learning something new already. [0:15:15.3] CC: We already have. I thought you were all were joking. We have the Kubernetes repo. We have a github repo called – [0:15:22.8] NL: Oh, perfect. [0:15:23.4] CC: heptio/thekubelets. [0:15:27.5] DC: The other thing I like that we do in TGIK is this HackMD thing. Although, I'm trying to figure out how we could really make that work for us in a show that's recorded every week like this one. I think, maybe what we could do is have it so that when people can listen to the recording, they could go to the HackMD document, put questions in or comments around things if they would like to hear more about, or maybe share their perspectives about these topics. Maybe in the following week, we could just go back and review what came in during that period of time, or during the next session. [0:15:57.7] KN: Yeah. Maybe we're merging the HackMD on the next recording. [0:16:01.8] DC: Yeah. [0:16:03.3] KN: Okay. I like it. [0:16:03.6] DC: Josh, you have any thoughts? Friendster, MySpace, anything like that? [0:16:07.2] JR: No. I think we could pass on MySpace for now, but everything else sounds great. [0:16:13.4] DC: Do we want to get into the meat of the episode? [0:16:15.3] KN: Yeah. [0:16:17.2] DC: Our true topic, what does cloud native mean to all of us? Kris, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. You might have written a book about this? [0:16:28.3] KN: I co-authored a book called Cloud Native Infrastructure, which it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's one of those umbrella terms, like DevOps. It's up to you to interpret it. I think in the past couple of years of working in the cloud native space and working directly at the CNCF as a CNCF ambassador, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, they're the open source nonprofit folks behind this term cloud native. I think the best definition I've been able to come up with is when you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering. I think all cloud native infrastructure is, it's designing software that manages and mutates infrastructure in that same way. I think the underlying theme here is we're no longer caddying configurations disk and doing system D restarts. Now we're just sending HTTPS API requests and getting messages back. Hopefully, if the cloud has done what we expect it to do, that broadcast some broader change. As software engineers, we can count on those guarantees to design our software around. I really think that you need to understand that it's starting with the main function first and completely engineering your app around these new ideas and these new paradigms and not necessarily a migration of a non-cloud native app. I mean, you technically could go through and do it. Sure, we've seen a lot of people do it, but I don't think that's technically cloud native. That's cloud alien. Yeah. I don't know. That's just my thought. [0:18:10.0] DC: Are you saying that cloud native approach is a greenfield approach generally? To be a cloud native application, you're going to take that into account in the DNA of your application? [0:18:20.8] KN: Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. [0:18:23.1] CC: It's interesting that never said – mentioned cloud alien, because that plays into the way I would describe the meaning of cloud native. I mean, what it is, I think Nova described it beautifully and it's a lot of – it really shows her know-how. For me, if I have to describe it, I will just parrot things that I have read, including her book. What it means to me, what it means really is I'm going to use a metaphor to explain what it means to me. Given my accent, I’m obviously not an American born, and so I'm a foreigner. Although, I do speak English pretty well, but I'm not native. English is not my native tongue. I speak English really well, but there are certain hiccups that I'm going to have every once in a while. There are things that I'm not going to know what to say, or it's going to take me a bit long to remember. I rarely run into not understanding it, something in English, but it happens sometimes. That's the same with the cloud native application. If it hasn't been built to run on cloud native platforms and systems, you can migrate an application to cognitive environment, but it's not going to fully utilize the environments, like a native app would. That's my take. [0:19:56.3] KN: Cloud immigrant. [0:19:57.9] CC: Cloud immigrant. Is Nick a cloud alien? [0:20:01.1] KN: Yeah. [0:20:02.8] CC: Are they cloud native alien, or cloud native aliens. Yeah. [0:20:07.1] JR: On that point, I'd be curious if you all feel there is a need to discern the notion of cloud native infrastructure, or platforms, then the notion of cloud native apps themselves. Where I'm going with this, it's funny hearing the Greenfield thing and what you said, Carlisia, with the immigration, if you will, notion. Oftentimes, you see these very cloud native platforms, things, the amount of Kubernetes, or even Mesos or whatever it might be. Then you see the applications themselves. Some people are using these platforms that are cloud native to be a forcing function, to make a lot of their legacy stuff adopt more cloud native principles, right? There’s this push and pull. It's like, “Do I make my app more cloud native? Do I make my infrastructure more cloud native? Do I do them both at the same time?” Be curious what your thoughts are on that, or if that resonates with you at all. [0:21:00.4] KN: I've got a response here, if I can jump in. Of course, Nova with opinions. Who would have thought? I think what I'm hearing here, Josh is as we're using these cloud native platforms, we're forcing the hand of our engineers. In a world where we may be used to just send this blind DNS request out so whatever, and we would be ignorant of where that was going, now in the cloud native world, we know there's the specific DNS implementation that we can count on. It has this feature set that we can guarantee our software around. I think it's a little bit of both and I think that there is definitely an art to understanding, yes, this is a good idea to do both applications and infrastructure. I think that's where you get into this what it needs to be a cloud native engineer. Just in the same traditional legacy infrastructure stack, there's going to be good engineering choices you can make and there's going to be bad ones and there's many different schools of thought over do I go minimalist? Do I go all in at once? What does that mean? I think we're seeing a lot of folks try a lot of different patterns here. I think there's pros and cons though. [0:22:03.9] CC: Do you want to talk about this pros and cons? Do you see patterns that are more successful for some kinds of company versus others? [0:22:11.1] KN: I mean, I think going back to the greenfield thing that we were talking about earlier, I think if you are lucky enough to build out a greenfield application, you're able to bake in greenfield infrastructure management instead as well. That's where you get these really interesting hybrid applications, just like Kubernetes, that span the course of infrastructure and application. If we were to go into Kubernetes and say, “I wanted to define a service of type load balancer,” it’s actually going to go and create a load balancer for you and actually mutate that underlying infrastructure. The only way we were able to get that power and get that paradigm is because on day one, we said we're going to do that as software engineers; taking the infrastructure where you were hidden behind the firewall, or hidden behind the load balancer in the past. The software would have no way to reason about it. They’re blind and greenfield really is going to make or break your ability to even you take the infrastructure layers. [0:23:04.3] NL: I think that's a good distinction to make, because something that I've been seeing in the field a lot is that the users will do cloud native practices, but they’ll use a tool to do the cloud native for them, right? They'll use something along the lines of HashiCorp’s Terraform to create the VMs and the load balancers for them. It's something I think that people forget about is that the application themselves can ask for these resources as well. Terraform is just using an API and your code can use an API to the same API, in fact. I think that's an important distinction. It forces the developer to think a little bit like a sysadmin sometimes. I think that's a good melding of the dev and operations into this new word. Regrettably, that word doesn't exist right now. [0:23:51.2] KN: That word can be cloud native. [0:23:53.3] DC: Cloud here to me breaks down into a different set of topics as well. I remember seeing a talk by Brandon Phillips a few years ago. In his talk, he was describing – he had some numbers up on the screen and he was talking about the fact that we were going to quickly become overwhelmed by the desire to continue to develop and put out more applications for our users. His point was that every day, there's another 10,000 new users of the Internet, new consumers that are showing up on the Internet, right? Globally, I think it's something to the tune of about 350,000 of the people in this room, right? People who understand infrastructure, people who understand how to interact with applications, or to build them, those sorts of things. There really aren't a lot of people who are in that space today, right? We're surrounded by them all the time, but they really just globally aren't that many. His point is that if we don't radically change the way that we think about the development as the deployment and the management of all of these applications that we're looking at today, we're going to quickly be overrun, right? There aren't going to be enough people on the planet to solve that problem without thinking about the problem in a fundamentally different way. For me, that's where the cloud native piece comes in. With that, comes a set of primitives, right? You need some way to automate, or to write software that will manage other software. You need the ability to manage the lifecycle of that software in a resilient way that can be managed. There are lots of platforms out there that thought about this problem, right? There are things like Mesos, there are things like Kubernetes. There's a number of different shots on goal here. There are lots of things that I've really tried to think about that problem in a fundamentally different way. I think of those primitives that being able to actually manage the lifecycle of software, being able to think about packaging that software in such a way that it can be truly portable, the idea that you have some API abstraction that brings again, that portability, such that you can make use of resources that may not be hosted on your infrastructure on your own personal infrastructure, but also in the cloud, like how do we actually make that API contract so complete that you can just take that application anywhere? These are all part of that cloud native definition in my opinion. [0:26:08.2] KN: This is so fascinating, because the human race totally already learned this lesson with the Linux kernel in the 90s, right? We had all these hardware manufacturers coming out and building all these different hardware components with different interfaces. Somebody said, “Hey, you know what? There's a lot of noise going on here. We should standardize these and build a contract.” That contract then implemented control loops, just like in Kubernetes and then Mesos. Poof, we have the Linux kernel now. We're just distributed Linux kernel version 2.0. The human race is here repeating itself all over again. [0:26:41.7] NL: Yeah. It seems like the blast radius of Linux kernel 2.0 is significantly higher than the Linux kernel itself. That made it sound like I was like, pooh-poohing what you're saying. It’s more like, we're learning the same lesson, but at a grander scale now. [0:27:00.5] KN: Yeah. I think that's a really elegant way of putting it. [0:27:03.6] DC: You do raise a good point. If you are embracing on a cloud native infrastructure, remember that little changes are big changes, right? Because you're thinking about managing the lifecycle of a thousand applications now, right? If you're going full-on cloud native, you're thinking about operating at scale, it's a byproduct of that. Little changes that you might be able to make to your laptop are now big changes that are going to affect a fleet of thousand machines, right? [0:27:30.0] KN: We see this in Kubernetes all the time, where a new version of Kubernetes comes out and something totally unexpected happens when it is ran at scale. Maybe it worked on 10 nodes, but when we need to fire up a thousand nodes, what happens then? [0:27:42.0] NL: Yeah, absolutely. That actually brings up something that to me, defines cloud native as well. A lot of my definition of cloud native follows in suit with Kris Nova's book, or Kris Nova, because your book was what introduced me to the phrase cloud native. It makes sense that your opinion informs my opinion, but something that I think that we were just starting to talk about a little bit is also the concept of stability. Cloud native applications and infrastructure means coding with instability in mind. It's not being guaranteed that your VM will live forever, because it's on somebody else's hardware, right? Their hardware could go down, and so what do you do? It has to move over really quickly, has to figure out, have the guarantees of its API and its endpoints are all going to be the same no matter what. All of these things have to exist for the code, or for your application to live in the cloud. That's something that I find to be very fascinating and that's something that really excites me, is not trying to make a barge, but rather trying to make a schooner when you're making an app. Something that can, instead of taking over the waves, can be buffeted by the waves and still continue. [0:28:55.6] KN: Yeah. It's a little more reactive. I think we see this in Kubernetes a lot. When I interviewed Joe a couple years ago, Joe Beda for the book to get a quote from him, he said, this magic phrase that has stuck with me over the past few years, which is “goal-seeking behavior.” If you look at a Kubernetes object, they all use this concept in Go called embedding. Every Kubernetes object has a status in the spec. All it is is it’s what's actually going on, versus what did I tell it, what do I want to go on. Then all we're doing is just like you said with your analogy, is we're just trying to be reactive to that and build to that. [0:29:31.1] JR: That's something I wonder if people don't think about a lot. They don't they think about the spec, but not the status part. I think the status part is as important, or more important maybe than the spec. [0:29:41.3] KN: It totally is. Because I mean, a status like, if you have one potentiality for status, your control loop is going to be relatively trivial. As you start understanding more of the problems that you could see and your code starts to mature and harden, those statuses get more complex and you get more edge cases and your code matures and your code hardens. Then we can take that and globally in these larger cloud native patterns. It's really cool. [0:30:06.6] NL: Yeah. Carlisia, you’re a developer who's now just getting into the cloud native ecosystem. What are your thoughts on developing with cloud native practices in mind? [0:30:17.7] CC: I’m not sure I can answer that. When I started developing for Kubernetes, I was like, “What is a pod?” What comes first? How does this all fit together? I joined the project [inaudible 00:30:24]. I don't have to think about that. It's basically moving the project along. I don't have to think what I have to do differently from the way I did things before. [0:30:45.1] DC: One thing that I think you probably ran into in working with the application is the management of state and how that relates to – where you actually end up coupling that state. Before in development, you might just assume that there is a database somewhere that you would have to interact with. That database is a way of actually pushing that state off of the code that you're actually going to work with. In this way, that you might think of being able to write multiple consumers of state, or multiple things that are going to mutate state and all share that same database. This is one of the patterns that comes up all the time when we start talking about cloud native architectures, is because we have to really be very careful about how we manage that state and mainly, because one of the other big benefits of it is the ability to horizontally scale things that are going to mutate, or consume state. [0:31:37.5] CC: My brain is in its infancy as it relates to Kubernetes. All that I see is APIs all the way down. It's just APIs all the way down. It’s not very different than as a developer for me, is not very much more complex than developing against the database that sits behind. Ask me again a year from now and I will have a more interesting answer. [0:32:08.7] KN: This is so fascinating, right? I remember a couple years ago when Kubernetes was first coming out and listening to some of the original “Elders of Kubernetes,” and even some of the stuff that we were working on at this time. One of the things that they said was we hope one day, somebody doesn't have to care about what's passed these APIs and gets to look at Kubernetes as APIs only. Then they hear that come from you authentically, it's like, “Hey, that's our success statement there. We nailed it.” It's really cool. [0:32:37.9] CC: Yeah. I don’t understood their patterns and I probably should be more cognizant about these patterns are, even if it's just to articulate them. To me, my day-to-day challenge is understanding the API, understanding what library call do I make to make this happen and how – which is just programming 101 almost. Not different from any other regular project. [0:33:10.1] JR: Yeah. That is something that's nice about programming with Kubernetes in mind, because a lot of times you can use the source code as documentation. I hate to say that particularly is a non-developer. I'm a sysadmin first getting into development and documentation is key in my mind. There's been more than a few times where I'm like, “How do I do this?” You can look in the source code for pretty much any application that you're using that's in Kubernetes, or around the Kubernetes ecosystem. The API for that application is there and it'll tell you what you need to do, right? It’s like, “Oh, this is how you format your config file. Got it.” [0:33:47.7] CC: At the same time, I don't want to minimize that knowing what the patterns are is very useful. I haven't had to do any design for Valero for our projects. Maybe if I had, I would have to be forced to look into that. I'm still getting to know the codebase and developing features, but no major design that I had to lead at least. I think with time, I will recognize those patterns and it will make it easier for me to understand what is happening. What I was saying is that not understanding the patterns that are behind the design of those APIs doesn't preclude me at all so call against it, against them. [0:34:30.0] KN: I feel this is the heart of cloud native. I think we totally nailed it. The heart of cloud native is in the APIs and your ability to interact with the APIs. That's what makes it programmable and that's what makes – gives you the interface for you and your software to interact with that. [0:34:45.1] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. API first. On the topic of cloud native, what about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation? What are our thoughts on the CNCF and what is the CNCF? Josh, you have any thoughts on that? [0:35:00.5] JR: Yeah. I haven't really been as close to the CNCF as I probably should, to be honest with you. One of the great things that the CNCF has put together are programs around getting projects into this, I don't know if you would call it vendor neutral type program. Maybe somebody can correct me on that. Effectively, there's a lot of different categories, like networking and storage and runtimes for containers and things of that nature. There's a really cool landscape that can show off a lot of these different technologies. A lot of the categories, I'm guessing we'll be talking about on this podcast too, right? Things like, what does it mean to do cloud native networking and so on and so forth? That's my purview of the CNCF. Of course, they put on KubeCon, which is the most important thing to me. I'm sure someone else on this call can talk deeper at an organization level what they do. [0:35:50.5] KN: I'm happy to jump in here. I've been working with them for I think three years now. I think first, it's important to know that they are a subsidiary of the Linux Foundation. The Linux Foundation is the original open source, nonprofit here, and then the CNCF is one of many, like Apache is another one that is underneath the broader Linux Foundation umbrella. I think the whole point of – or the CNCF is to be this neutral party that can help us as we start to grow and mature the ecosystem. Obviously, money is going to be involved here. Obviously, companies are going to be looking out for their best interest. It makes sense to have somebody managing the software that is outside, or external of these revenue-driven companies. That's where I think the CNCF comes into play. I think that's its main responsibility is. What happens when somebody from company A and somebody from Company B disagree with the direction that the software should go? The CNCF can come in and say, “Hey, you know what? Let's find a happy medium in here and let's find a solution that works for both folks and let's try to do this the best we can.” I think a lot of this came from lessons we learned the hard way with Linux. In a weird way, we did – we are in version 2.0, but we were able to take advantage of some of the priority here. [0:37:05.4] NL: Do you have any examples of a time in the CNCF jumped in and mediated between two companies? [0:37:11.6] KN: Yeah. I think the steering committee, the Kubernetes steering committee is a great example of this. It's a relatively new thing. It hasn't been around for a very long time. You look at the history of Kubernetes and we used to have this incubation process that has since been retired. We've tried a lot of solutions and the CNCF has been pretty instrumental and guiding the shape of how we're going to manage, solve governance for such a monolithic project. As Kubernetes grows, the problem space grows and more people get involved. We're having to come up with new ways of managing that. I think that's not necessarily a concrete example of two specific companies, but I think that's more of as people get involved, the things that used to work for us in the past are no longer working. The CNCF is able to recognize that and guide us out of that. [0:37:57.2] DC: Cool. That’s such a very good perspective on the CNCF that I didn't have before. Because like Josh, my perspective with CNCF was well, they put on that really cool party three times a year. [0:38:07.8] KN: I mean, they definitely are great at throwing parties. [0:38:12.6] NL: They are that. [0:38:14.1] CC: My perspective of the CNCF is from participating in the Kubernetes meetup here in San Diego. I’m trying to revive our meetup, which is really hard to do, but different topic. I know that they try to make it easier for people to find meetups, because they have on meetup.com, they have an organization. I don't know what the proper name is, but if you go there and you put your zip code, you'll find any meetup that's associated with them. My meetup here in San Diego is associated, can be easily found. They try to give a little bit of money for swags. We also give out ads for meetup. They offer help for finding speakers and they also have a speaker catalog on their website. They try to help in those ways, which I think is very helpful, very valuable. [0:39:14.9] DC: Yeah, I agree. I know about CNCF, mostly just from interacting with folks who are working on its behalf. Working at meeting a bunch of the people who are working on the Kubernetes project, on behalf of the CNCF, folks like Ihor and people like that, which are constantly amazingly with the amount of work that they do on behalf of the CNCF. I think it's been really good seeing what it means to provide governance over a project. I think that really highlights – that's really highlighted by the way that Kubernetes itself has managed. I think a lot of us on the call have probably worked with OpenStack and remember some of the crazy battles that went on between vendors around particular components in that stack. I've yet to actually really see that level of noise creep into the Kubernetes situation. I think squarely on the CNCF around managing governance, and also run the community for just making it accessible enough thing that people can plug into it, without actually having to get into a battle about taking ownership of CNI, for example. Nobody should own CNI. That should be its own project under its own governance. How you satisfy the needs for something like container networking should be a project that you develop as a company, and you can make the very best one that you could make it even attract as many customers to that as you want. Fundamentally, the way that your interface to that major project should be something that is abstracted in such a way that it isn't owned by any one company. There should be a contact in an API, that sort of thing. [0:40:58.1] KN: Yeah. I think the best analogy I ever heard was like, “We’re just building USB plugs.” [0:41:02.8] DC: That's actually really great. [0:41:05.7] JR: To that point Duffie, I think what's interesting is more and more companies are looking to the CNCF to determine what they're going to place their bets on from a technology perspective, right? Because they've been so burned historically from some project owned by one vendor and they don't really know where it's going to end up and so on and so forth. It's really become a very serious thing when people consider the technologies they're going to bet their business on. [0:41:32.0] DC: Yeah. When a project is absorbed into the CNCF, or donated to the CNCF, I guess. There are a number of projects that this has happened to. Obviously, if you see that iChart that is the CNCF landscape, there's just tons of things happening inside of there. It's a really interesting process, but I think that from my part, I remember recently seeing Sysdig Falco show up in that list and seeing them donate – seeing Sysdig donate Falco to the CNCF was probably one of the first times that I've actually have really tried to see what happens when that happens. I think that some of the neat stuff here that happens is that now this is an open source project. It's under the governance of the CNCF. It feels to me more an approachable project, right? I don't feel I have to deal with Sysdig directly to interact with Falco, or to contribute to it. It opens that ecosystem up around this idea, or the genesis of the idea that they built around Falco, which I think is really powerful. What do you all think of that? [0:42:29.8] KN: I think, to look at it from a different perspective, that's one example of when the CNCF helps a project liberate itself. There's plenty of other examples out there where the CNCF is an opt-in feature, that is only there if we need it. I think cluster API, which I'm sure we're going to talk about this in a later episode. I mean, just a quick overview is a lot of different vendors implementing the same API and making that composable and modular. I mean, nowhere along the way in the history of that project has the CNCF had to come and step in. We’ve been able to operate independently of that. I think because the CNCF is even there, we all are under this working agreement of we're going to take everybody's concerns into consideration and we're going to take everybody’s use case in some consideration, work together as an ecosystem. I think it's just even having that in place, whether or not you use it or not is a different story. [0:43:23.4] CC: Do you all know any project under the CNCF? [0:43:26.1] KN: I have one. [0:43:27.7] JR: Well, I've heard of this one. It's called Kubernetes. [0:43:30.1] CC: Is it called Kubernetes or Kubernetes? [0:43:32.8] JR: It’s called Kubernetes. [0:43:36.2] CC: Wow. That’s not what Duffie thinks. [0:43:38.3] DC: I don’t say it that way. No, it's been pretty fascinating seeing just the breadth of projects that are under there. In fact, I was just recently noticing that OpenEBS is up for joining the CNCF. There seems to be – it's fascinating that the things that are being generated through the CNCF and going through that life cycle as a project sometimes overlap with one another and it's very – it seems it's a delicate balance that the CNCF would have to play to keep from playing favorites. Because part of the charter of CNCF is to promote the project, right? I'm always curious to see and I'm fascinated to see how this plays out as we see projects that are normally competitive with one another under the auspice of the same organization, like a CNCF. How do they play this in such a way that they remain neutral, even it would – it seems like it would take a lot of intention. [0:44:39.9] KN: Yeah. Well, there's a difference between just being a CNCF project and being an official project, or a graduated project. There's different tiers. For instance, Kubicorn, a tool that I wrote, we just adopted the CNCF, like I think a code of conduct and there was another file I had to include in the repo and poof, were magically CNCF now. It's easy to get onboard. Once you're onboard, there's legal implications that come with that. There totally is this tier ladder stature that I'm not even super familiar with. That’s how officially CNCF you can be as your product grows and matures. [0:45:14.7] NL: What are some of the code of conduct that you have to do to be part of the CNCF? [0:45:20.8] KN: There's a repo on it. I can maybe find it and add it to the notes after this, but there's this whole tutorial that you can go through and it tells you everything you need to add and what the expectations are and what the implications are for everything. [0:45:33.5] NL: Awesome. [0:45:34.1] CC: Well, Valero is a CNCF project. We follow the what is it? The covenant? [0:45:41.2] KN: Yeah, I think that’s what it is. [0:45:43.0] CC: Yes. Which is the same that Kubernetes follows. I am not sure if there can be others that can be adopted, but this is definitely one. [0:45:53.9] NL: Yeah. According to Aaron Crickenberger, who was the Release Lead for Kubernetes 1.14, the CNCF code of conduct can be summarized as don't be a jerk. [0:46:06.6] KN: Yeah. I mean, there's more to it than that, but – [0:46:10.7] NL: That was him. [0:46:12.0] KN: Yeah. This is something that I remember seeing an open source my entire career, open source comes with this implication of you need to be well-rounded and polite and listen and be able to take others’ just thoughts and concerns into consideration. I think we just are getting used to working like that as an engineering industry. [0:46:32.6] NL: Agreed. Yeah. Which is a great point. It's something that I hadn't really thought of. The idea of development back in the day, it seems like before, there was such a thing as the CNCF are cloud native. It seemed that things were combative, or people were just trying to push their agenda as much as possible. Bully their way through. That doesn't seem that happens as much anymore. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? [0:46:58.9] DC: I think what you're highlighting is more the open source piece than the cloud native piece, which I – because I think that when you're working – open source, I think has been described a few times as a force multiplier for software development and software adoption. I think of these things are very true. If you look at a lot of the big successful closed source projects, they have – the way that people in this room and maybe people listening to this podcast might perceive them, it's definitely just fundamentally differently than some open source project. Mainly, because it feels it's more of a community-driven thing and it also feels you're not in a place where you're beholden to a set of developers that you don't know that are not interested in your best, and in what's best for you, or your organization to achieve whatever they set out to do. With open source, you can be a part of the voice of that project, right? You can jump in and say, “You know, it would really be great if this thing has this feature, or I really like how you would do this thing.” It really feels a lot more interactive and inclusive. [0:48:03.6] KN: I think that that is a natural segue to this idea of we build everything behind the scenes and then hey, it's this new open source project, that everything is done. I don't really think that's open source. We see some of these open source projects out there. If you go look at the git commit history, it's all everybody from the same company, or the same organization. To me, that's saying that while granted the source code might be technically open source, the actual act of engineering and architecting the software is not done as a group with multiple buyers into it. [0:48:37.5] NL: Yeah, that's a great point. [0:48:39.5] DC: Yeah. One of the things I really appreciate about Heptio actually is that all of the projects that we developed there were – that the developer chat for that was all kept in some neutral space, like the Kubernetes Slack, which I thought was really powerful. Because it means that not only is it open source and you can contribute code to a project, but if you want to talk to people who are also being paid to develop that project, you can just go to the channel and talk to them, right? It's more than open source. It's open community. I thought that was really great. [0:49:08.1] KN: Yeah. That's a really great way of putting it. [0:49:10.1] CC: With that said though, I hate to be a party pooper, but I think we need to say goodbye. [0:49:16.9] KN: Yeah. I think we should wrap it up. [0:49:18.5] JR: Yeah. [0:49:19.0] CC: I would like to re-emphasize that you can go to the issues list and add requests for what you want us to talk about. [0:49:29.1] DC: We should also probably link our HackMD from there, so that if you want to comment on something that we talked about during this episode, feel free to leave comments in it and we'll try to revisit those comments maybe in our next episode. [0:49:38.9] CC: Exactly. That's a good point. We will drop a link the HackMD page on the corresponding issue. There is going to be an issue for each episode, so just look for that. [0:49:51.8] KN: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining everyone. [0:49:54.1] NL: All right. Thank you. [0:49:54.6] CC: Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. [0:49:56.7] DC: Hope you enjoyed the episode and I look forward to a bunch more. [END OF EPISODE] [0:50:00.3] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On Thursday's podcast, I closed out the show with "Pic's Picks" for NFL Week 1 (22:08), presented by BetOnline.ag. Plus, I gave you my DraftKings "Gotta Have Him" play for Sunday's slate (17:25). And I shared some thoughts on Le'Veon Bell's holdout, Brandon Phillips coming up big for the Boston Red Sox, and more.

James Rapien discusses the Reds' record, what he's seen from them in recent days and Brandon Phillips' return to the major leagues.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

To begin today's podcast, Chad Dotson talked about the glorious return of Devin Mesoraco, then went on a little rant about Brandon Phillips and his comments upon returning to Cincinnati for the first time. In addition, Chad was joined by Tom Van Riper, author of Cincinnati Red and Dodger Blue, a new book that looks at the Reds-Dodgers rivalry of the 1970s and 80s. Tom will be signing his book at the Barnes and Noble in Newport, KY on Saturday, June 17, 2017 at noon; he'll also be at the Waterstone B&N at 3pm that day. Go meet Tom and tell him Redleg Nation sent you. Music for this episode provided by Freekbass. Please subscribe (on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, TuneIn Radio), and give us a rating/review over at iTunes and elsewhere. If you like us, tell your friends! Podcast-related questions and comments can be directed to Chad via email (chaddotson@redlegnation.com) or on Twitter (@dotsonc).

Chad Dotson was joined by Joel Luckhaupt for a special BREAKING NEWS edition of the podcast. Long-time Reds second baseman Brandon Phillips has been traded to the Atlanta Braves for two minor leaguers. Joel and Chad discuss what this means for the Reds in 2017 and beyond, and look back at the memorable career of one of the best second basemen in Cincinnati history.

Is a Brandon Phillips trade imminent? What about Zack Cozart? Bill Lack joined Chad Dotson for a discussion of those topics, and much more, in the latest episode of the Redleg Nation Radio podcast.

Jason Linden joined Chad Dotson for the latest edition of Redleg Nation Radio. The guys discussed Joey Votto, and Junior Griffey, and Devin Mesoraco, and Cody Reed, and Tony Disco, and...well, almost everything you need to know about the current state of the Cincinnati Reds. Including the biggest question facing the current edition of the Reds: What should the club do about the Brandon Phillips problem? Subscribe to the podcast, and give us a rating/review over at iTunes. If you like us, tell your friends!

Chad Dotson and Bill Lack are back, and they're talking about the Reds again. In this episode, the guys discuss Adam Duvall's All-Star Game selection, the futures of Brandon Phillips and Bryan Price, and ask whether Jay Bruce or Zack Cozart are future Reds Hall of Famers. Plus, a look back at the 1970 Reds and the beginning of the Big Red Machine. Please subscribe to the podcast (iTunes or otherwise), and leave us a rating/review. If you like us, tell your friends. If you don't like us, please tell no one! Enjoy!